# to salute or not??



## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

here a good debate..since we have a bunch of debater on the site,do u believe it her right to do this???
hopefully i don't open a can of worms???

Flag Day
Lost in the Toni Smith Story Is Her Responsibility as a Member of a Team

By Frank Deford
Sports Illustrated

You have probably heard by now of Toni Smith, a senior on the women's basketball team at Manhattanville College. Smith has made it a habit to turn 90 degrees away from the flag while the national anthem is played before her games. She is protesting, she says, "the inequalities embedded in the American system," which embraces a rather large territory.

First of all, this is surely a coach's nightmare. To order a player to stand facing the flag is to immediately suffer charges of denying a student their right to freedom of expression. On the other hand, to allow a member of a team to go their own way violates the first tenet of teamwork, of being a part of the whole you have volunteered to join.

What would you do if you were Shawn Lincoln, the first-year Manhattanville coach? There's no easy answer, is there?

Well, I would tell Toni this: You have made your point, and I appreciate how fervently you believe in what you're doing, but you are one of us on this team, and once you put on our Manhattanville uniform you cede certain individual prerogatives. Once the game is over, you may protest in any fashion you wish, but you made the personal decision to try out for this team, so now you are one of us and you must respect us, as a group, even if you don't respect the flag that the rest of us do.

In a real way, it seems to me, the player is using the team, taking advantage of her teammates. The Star-Spangled Banner is played for the game, for the participating teams, and, as a member of the squad, she should honor that fact and not co-opt the opportunity for her own ends. We make all sorts of concessions to our freedom when we participate on a team, and although freedom of political expression may be higher on the scale than, say, obeying training rules, the principle is the same. Indeed, our courts have held that even high school athletes must accept being singled out for drug-testing because they choose to play sports, whereas drug testing is not constitutional for the entire student body.

Of course, it's also true that some coaches are bullies and despots, who misuse their authority, but being on a team is the ideal of sacrifice, and when an individual breaches that unity, that goal, then something noble is lost.

Having said that, it is also probably true that games -- and teams -- may have been co-opted for showy patriotic purposes. Whoever would have thought that the last refuge of patriotism would be the beginning of a ballgame? Myself, I rather like it that we find reasons to play our national anthem in common places of joy, such as stadiums and arenas. If The Star-Spangled Banner is only rendered on military or state occasions, or at funerals and memorials, we would come to not think so warmly of our anthem, wouldn't we? But too often lately, the anthem seems to have provided an excuse for other expressions, invariably more martial in tone than democratic. Specifically, the business of having a squadron of fighter jets swoop over the stadium as soon as "the land of the free and the home of the brave" has lifted into the air. In peacetime or wartime, I really don't think we need that sort of military display as a benediction to our games.

It's enough, I think, to face the flag and hear the anthem, together.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

Who gives a monkeys about the star spangled banner?

I say burn it!


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## bobme (Feb 17, 2003)

I beleave if you live in America and where born here, or are now a Citizien of this counrty, you follow and honor our flag rules.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Who cares, she isn't required to do anything like that. The league or her team may be able to take disciplinary action, but it's still her decision whether or not she "salutes" the flag. Same thing with a pro basketball player who refused to stand for the national anthem. While he should have simply out of respect, nobody can force him to. Maybe she should look for another country to live in if her current one is such a horrible place to be.


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## piranha 13 (Feb 16, 2003)

She needs to go live in a different country maybe say Iraq so we can blow her up!!









Innes- How can you say who gives a monkeys about the Star Spangled Banner??? Just because you live in a different country you shouldn't disrespect our country.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

piranha 13 said:


> She needs to go live in a different country maybe say Iraq so we can blow her up!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 And wanting to blow someone up is different...how? So she doesn't agree with all that the flag represents, I bet most people feel the same way but are too ashamed to say so. I don't agree with all of my country's policies either. She's protesting and is well within her rights to do so.

You folks do need a new anthem, this one's too bloody long!


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

Thanks Innes, you confirmed my thoughts of you being a horrible person. It is not a matter of choice to stand before the flag... and i am so sick of these damn baby ass protesters... If you want to make a difference then do somthing to affect the future, If you are not helping to mold this future and nearly protesting what everyone else has poured there soul into then what good are you as a person? That flag stands for all her fathers, and the men who died for this country. I would break her damn neck if I ever saw that or anyones for that matter. What would have happened to a person who turned his back on the king 200 years ago... A peasant like that should know their place in the world.


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

> She's protesting and is well within her rights to do so.


That is not an american ideal... that is a BS distored european view of the world. If she has a problem she can write to her local legislature.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

An American ideal? I'm not following you. But from your statements you sound like a fascist or a socialist which is against what your ancestors fought for. Like it or not she doesn't have to do it, and doing something like breaking her neck just proves her right. It is attitudes like these that gives Americans a bad name. Instead of wanting to harm people who disagree with your country why not work on making it a better place? You do more harm than good saying such things.

Protests are a way to voice opinions, without protests a lot of changes would not have happened to your country and you wouldn't have a lot of the things you do. People have very selective memories, and when someone stands up for their beliefs or stands against what they believe to be wrong, well you've just shown us what happens.


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## Lyle (Jan 29, 2003)

I think people are allowed their own beliefs, etc. but I don't think she should be disrespecting her team and coaches, etc. If she doesn't want to participate, stay in the locker room until it is over.

It would be amusing if that college were a community college. In which case, the government she despises would be paying more than $5,000 every year for her to go to school and get a college education and direspect her country.


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

"Duty is the most sublime word in the english language" - General Rober E Lee. Saluting the flag is a duty, under millitary law you are required to salute a superior even if you hate his guts. The fathers of the revolution did not fight for the right to turn their back on everything that they had accomplished. The fact of the matter is I could care less if this attitude gives us a bad reuputation because we work harder collectively then any other country on the planet, while all europeans have to do is complain about how they are not being treated fairly. This spoiled brat is lucky enough to live in a place where she can receive a college education for playing a worthless game, when will she ever realize how fortunate she is?


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Then why isn't everyone thrown in jail? I never see anyone saluting other than soldiers. If she's commited such a heineous crime then toss her in the cooler, and that other basketball player too.


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

I hate america, I hate christians, I hate people.

Since i dont agree with everyone else, i guess i should be shot, huh?

actually let me go into more detail, i dont per-se hate america, nor christians... but i do hate christians who frown upon others for not sharing the same religion same for any other religious "goers"..

as for this country, Im a very odd person, i would goto war for our freedom and lives, but i will not defend our structure by no means.

as for general people... well someone once said to me, "im not racist i hate everyone" Sure, there are people I dont hate.. Ones who treat me with respect for the person I am and support the way i want to be with no retractions.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

For her to turn her back against the flag is a disgrace to what our country stands for. Maybe she doesnt realize what the National Anthem is really all about. Our National Anthem sybolizes many of things. Mainly that of the freedoms we have in this country. Freedoms that are very rare to come by any where else. She wouldnt even have the chance to be living her dream was it not for living here. There are so many opportunities that she gained by being an Amrican citizen and for her to turn her back against all that was "given" to her by her just being a citizen is just pathetic. If she doesnt like America and is going to continually disgrace our flag then she should just leave and go to where she thinks is better off.


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> For her to turn her back against the flag is a disgrace to what our country stands for. Maybe she doesnt realize what the National Anthem is really all about. Our National Anthem sybolizes many of things. Mainly that of the freedoms we have in this country. Freedoms that are very rare to come by any where else. She wouldnt even have the chance to be living her dream was it not for living here. There are so many opportunities that she gained by being an Amrican citizen and for her to turn her back against all that was "given" to her by her just being a citizen is just pathetic. If she doesnt like America and is going to continually disgrace our flag then she should just leave and go to where she thinks is better off.


 WELL SAID MS.NATT


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## cfr3 (Feb 20, 2003)

2 words....f*cking whore


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## Nethius (Feb 23, 2003)

Lyle said:


> I think people are allowed their own beliefs, etc. but I don't think she should be disrespecting her team and coaches, etc. If she doesn't want to participate, stay in the locker room until it is over.


 agreed!

but she probably wants to make a big deal out of it... i say just ignore her!


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## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

....if you live in america, then you should respect the american flag and the national anthem...it doesn't mean you have to salute or believe in the ethics of this country, but its just out of pure respect to stand up for our flag or during the presentation of our national anthem



> She needs to go live in a different country maybe say Iraq so we can blow her up!!


...wtf is this country's obsession with blowing sh*t up?


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## GARGOYLE (Feb 12, 2003)

If she doesn't believe in what the American flag stands for, fine, that is entirely up to her. But I dont see any need to turn away from it. Remain seated like everyone else who dont believe. For some reason this post really bothered me but I cant even explain it. Oh well.


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## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

GARGOYLE said:


> If she doesn't believe in what the American flag stands for, fine, that is entirely up to her. But I dont see any need to turn away from it. Remain seated like everyone else who dont believe. For some reason this post really bothered me but I cant even explain it. Oh well.


 i think its pride for you country kicking in


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## bobme (Feb 17, 2003)

if she dont like it, LEAVE, god damn hippies!


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

bobme said:


> I beleave if you live in America and where born here, or are now a Citizien of this counrty, you follow and honor our flag rules.


As a European, it's very scary to see very small kids pledge allegience to the US flag: it's disturbing.

Why many Europeans don't have such strong patriottic feelings (well, excpet for the French, that is: they still think they're a superpower, like they were 2 centuries ago...), and look at the American patriotism with a mixture of amazement and digust? I think it's because of this: I'm born in Holland, so I'm Dutch. If I was born 30 miles to the West, I was German. If I was born 200 miles to the south, I was Belgian. That's why I don't feel such strong commitment to my country: I care about what's here, since I live here, and political decisions will affect me. But I'm in no way willing to die for my country some 10,000 miles from home








To me, our red, white and blue flag is just a symbol of our country: no more, no less. If someone thinks different about that, wanting to talk to it and salute it, fine (you're loss...), but don't enforce it on other people.

Just another 2 cents I'd like to add: I've seen a number of stories about Americans getting arrested because they wore anti-war t-shirts, and spoke out against the war in public. Some well-known people, like actors, that said they were against a war, are being harassed, or dismissed as business partners (like Sean Penn)......
Where the hell is your country going: I thought you had learned from the Red Scare in the 50's and 60's, but it seems like it's all starting all over again. I'm sorry, but what has that to do with "The Land of the Free", or your freedom of speech.......???


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

BDKing57 said:


> Thanks Innes, you confirmed my thoughts of you being a horrible person. It is not a matter of choice to stand before the flag... and i am so sick of these damn baby ass protesters... If you want to make a difference then do somthing to affect the future, If you are not helping to mold this future and nearly protesting what everyone else has poured there soul into then what good are you as a person? That flag stands for all her fathers, and the men who died for this country. I would break her damn neck if I ever saw that or anyones for that matter. What would have happened to a person who turned his back on the king 200 years ago... A peasant like that should know their place in the world.


 I don't give a sh*t about the american flag because I am not american, but I don't give a sh*t about the Union Jack or the St Georges Cross either, it is just a flag, made of cloth - why salute it because you want to play a game of sports?

and your right, I am a real horrible person


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Judazzz said:


> bobme said:
> 
> 
> > I beleave if you live in America and where born here, or are now a Citizien of this counrty, you follow and honor our flag rules.
> ...


 A. The actors are losing business because they are liberal cry babies that need to grow a pair and stop acting like just because they are on TV, they have a large say in the direction of the country. Pompous asses.

B. Small kids pledge allegiance because it is only by this committment to the flag and duty that you (Judazzz, Innes, Neoplasia) are free people of the world. American "patriotism" has saved your asses twice in this century. Do not forget that.

C. People are not getting arrested. That is the liberal media feeding ideas to the populace to incite a reaction. One kid was asked to take off an anti-war shirt during a field trip. It shows disresepect for the school and a public, govt funded place of education is not a proper forum to spread such messages.

D. The flag is not just cloth. The flag is life and it is death. Countless people have given their lives for that flag....we dont let our "country" (which the flag embodies) to get run over like the Dutch do whenever another dictator comes along. Same goes for the stinky French. The flag is our country and embodies the duty and responsibilty to it.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Well I live in Canada so I guess you didn't really save my ass and I'm sure the Brits probably won't completely agree with that, certainly not in WWII. We're getting off on another issue, that being of US arrogance and ignorance of the outside world which I'll try to steer clear of other than to say a few people are living up to the stereotype.

Flags are a bit more than just a piece of cloth. But saluting it? I've never saluted anybody's flag nor do I intend to. Flags represent not only the good side of your country, but also the bad. It's the bad part that people protest against. We're in a time of enflamed patriotism (obnoxiously so all too often) and anything that isn't 100% patriotic is sneered at, and a lot of times I think it's to avoid looking at the internal issues that plague the country.

There's a problem with forcing kids to recite things like the Pledge. They are too young to fully appreciate what it is they are doing, and when they grow up they hold onto that blind belief without getting a full understanding of what it is they are doing.

I don't see how they can force that student to remove his anti-war shirt. Being against war isn't obscene or profane and they have no right to tell him he cannot wear it, regardless of where they are going. Would you agree with someone against your beliefs just because you were at their house? I doubt it. It's not disrespectful in the least. Schools are certainly not out of bounds to proliferate your views, most students wouldn't have the opportunity to get involved otherwise or have access to such a large resource. What is being forgotten here is what's more important is _how_ the protest is conducted.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Xenon said:


> The flag is not just cloth. The flag is life and it is death. Countless people have given their lives for that flag....we dont let our "country" (which the flag embodies) to get run over like the Dutch do whenever another dictator comes along.


What do you mean by that? Are you referring to WW2?
Well, Holland is just a tiny blotch on the world's map, but that doesn't mean we blindly do what other countries want us to do...... And we know we don't stand a chance when Germany or the French decide to occupy our country: we're simply not powerful enough to withstand that. But that does not mean we have do what others ask us to do, even when moral dilemma's are involved... Do you think that even small countries are entitled to have their own position in matters like the Iraqi crisis?

I can't stand that US government crap about "you're either with us, or you're against us": the world isn't black and white like that: every person (just like any nation collectively) has it's own opinions, and those should be cherished by their government, as far as they do not pose a thread!!! Saying that you are against a war that your government wants to wage is not a thread: the government is making that a thread, by saying "he's against the war, so he is against us"... Witch hunt they call this (or popression of free speech and opinion), and the first signs are already noticable in the US, the world's greatest "democracy"...

I think the US government's arrogance, deciding _for the world_ who's wrong and who's not, and what other nations should believe, that's a truely dangerous thing as well.
On what is the assumption that the US can dictate other nations based? That they have liberated Europe in WW2 (if so, than it's a very sad thing that such a powerful nation still has to dig this up as a reminder, to convince other nations that they should follow the US's course...)? That they have the most powerful and destructive weapons? The they are the most economically developed and influential nation in the world? Or what is it?

This is all just my personal opinion, and I believe that the US has the potential to pose a real thread to the world as it is nowadays. Note that I don't have any hard feelings against individual Americans, because they have their own opinions, and are entitled to these, just like I have mine (and none of us has any power to influence the government's policy: they just do what they want to anyways), but I definitely hold something against the US government. I'm affraid they drag others into something they didn't even wanted to be part of in the first place... Why should Al Qaeda for instance attack Holland: we're not even important enough for that. America is the great Satan to them, not Holland, or Belgium, or Greece, or..... When we fully help out the US in their plans, we become as much a target as America already is, and I don't like that idea one bit. Perhaps this is a selfish thought, but this is how I see things.
Now you can all start screaming about me being a liberal, a commie, or whatever, but this is my opinion: you can argue with it because you don't like it, but if you say I *am* wrong, then you have a lot to learn about true democracy, because personal opinions can't be wrong: you just form them on basis of what you see/read in the media, what you talk about with others etc...

Well, let the ass-kicking begin, eh


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## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> I can't stand that US government crap about "you're either with us, or you're against us": the world isn't black and white like that: every person (just like any nation collectively) has it's own opinions, and those should be cherished by their government, as far as they do not pose a thread!!! Saying that you are against a war that your government wants to wage is not a thread: the government is making that a thread, by saying "he's against the war, so he is against us"... Witch hunt they call this (or popression of free speech and opinion), and the first signs are already noticable in the US, the world's greatest "democracy"...


 the world IS black and white like that....everyone sees the same thing in this world...they think the US poses a threat to the world. they think the US is just power hungry....but perhaps the US isn't out to dominate the world, perhaps the US is out there to make the world a better place since no one else wants to do it....so yea, i stand by my president when he says "either you're with us, or against us"...and i feel the world is against the US and its noble causes


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## piranha 13 (Feb 16, 2003)

I'm with spikey on this one


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## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> On what is the assumption that the US can dictate other nations based? That they have liberated Europe in WW2 (if so, than it's a very sad thing that such a powerful nation still has to dig this up as a reminder, to convince other nations that they should follow the US's course...)? That they have the most powerful and destructive weapons? The they are the most economically developed and influential nation in the world? Or what is it?


 the US doesn't dictate other nations...the US offer aides and support....(ie...afghanistan)...


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Only when they have something to gain. They didn't move against Iraq back in '91 until they thought Saddam was going to move into Saudi Arabia. They would never have done anything about the Taliban if bin Ladin didn't blow up all those planes. They even supported him, knowing full well how extreme he was (that was a big reason why they picked him), they even supported Saddam at one point. Many of your "noble causes" aren't really all that noble once you do a little digging.

If the world was so black and white then there wouldn't be so many UN meetings and debates on current events. Things can rarely be broken down so simply, it would be nice but it's just not like that.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Well apparently US Marines are mobilizing on the front with Iraq. I think it is only a matter of days now.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Probably. I hope Bushy and his posse are ready for the international backlash. Though when they bring Saddam's head home on a platter there won't be many people who won't be happy.


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## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

Neoplasia said:


> Probably. I hope Bushy and his posse are ready for the international backlash.


 im kinda sketchy on something though, after we remove saddam, who's gonna be the one in government power ruling iraq...the shiites or the kurds?....can anyone answer me this because no one has covered this part, and im just curious


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## piranha 13 (Feb 16, 2003)

They'll probably just vote for a new president for Iraq.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

USMC*sPiKeY* said:


> im kinda sketchy on something though, after we remove saddam, who's gonna be the one in government power ruling iraq...the shiites or the kurds?....can anyone answer me this because no one has covered this part, and im just curious


 I don't know what will happen afterwards, but I don't think the US government gives a shiz anyways, as long as Big Macs are sold in Bagdad, Calvin Klein is the lastest fashion thing in Iraq, and the common Iraqi watch CNN on their US-made TV-screen...

But another question may be far more important and urgent: what will happen once an attack on Iraq starts? What will happen in the region, how will muslim communities, and perhaps more importantly, muslim terrorist organisations, all over the world react to this? I don't know the answer, but I think the outcome will be very positive: an even more extreme polarisation between the muslim world and the West (and the US in particular), an increasing amount of terrorist attacks on Western targets, an eruption of tension and a wave of violence in the Middle East??? Who will know?
But I know the US and it's equally hawkish allies will be partly responsable for this....
It really is the question that the world will be a better place afterwards, even though Saddam is ousted from power, and the threat of him using weapons of mass destruction is removed.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Saddam isn't even a practicing Muslim, he only pretends to be when he wants to curry favor with people. There will likely be some sort of occupation until an interim government can be set up and elections will be held. Probably similar to the process Afghanistan went through, though it will be interesting to see how the citizens respond to the regime change, they have been under Saddam's control and brain washing for years and years, whereas the Taliban was only in control for a comparatively short time.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Afghanistan is still by no means under control: only Kabul and its vicinity are relatively safe (even though a Dutch UN peacekeeper was injured and his interpreter killed in an attack, so even safety is quite relative...) In the rest of the country, it's the warlords and to a lesser extent, groups of Taleban and Al Qaeda that are still factually in control, despite the presence of Western special forces. As long as Westerers are around, the call the shots, but as soon as they leave, the Afghani's can do whatever they please.

Changing Iraq will be a much more complex task, which will probably takes many years more than it will take pacifying Afghanistan. I think different ethnic and religious groups will all try to gain as much power as possible (with all dier (sp?) consequences), and the Kurds might even try to seperate themselves to form an independent Kurdish state.
I agree it'll be very interesting to see what will happen in Iraq...


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## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> I agree it'll be very interesting to see what will happen in Iraq...


 in my opinion, in about 5 years, iraq will be like another isreal....where the kurds and shiites fight for land and control of the government


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Probably, but then again the Middle East will likely never be at peace.


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## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

i think this thread is done....juda, neo and i have finished it


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

USMC*sPiKeY* said:


> i think this thread is done....juda, neo and i have finished it


 Wise words, Spikey








I someone wants to start another thread about politics, the Middle East or how terrible the US is (





















), go ahead.

This one's closed, since no one seems to have the urge to post about this thread's original topic......


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