# EMP400 vs. AC110



## No0dles (Dec 16, 2003)

it's a never ending battle with no one ever winning which is better but here's my input on it...

The EMP400 is my personal favorite HOB bio-filtration unit to date. it's a bit more to clean than others but i personally dont mind it. It also has the cartridges that you can put whatever you need to in. The AC110 is a very good filter also and will last as long as an EMP will no doubt about it. The AC sucks when it comes to cleaning out you end up dumping more than half of it back into the tank. The EMP400 i can turn it off and clean and not worry about sh*t gushing out into my tanks. on my AC i turn it off and usually just carry the WHOLE thing over to the sink and dump it out, sometimes i'll carefully lift the tray out trying not to spill sh*t and carry it to the sink and clean the container as needed then i plug it back in and refill etc. the process is a little longer than on my EMP. i do gotta say though if space is a concern and with the higher flow rate of the AC compared to the EMP that would be the way to go and a lot of people like that. The Emp is a more intricate design leaving it with more moving parts more parts to likely go bad and if you dont use the cartridges you'll go through more filter pads than necessary and that's a good chunk of change you can be spending on something else. The AC is not as intricate as the EMP it doesn't have as many moving parts so less chance of something breaking also the AC has a large area to place your media which is also a good thing about them but then again it's mainly for non restrictive media like bio balls etc. which in turn ends up with a smaller area for mechanical filtration. My cousin whom i was talking to today about this (thats who gave me the idea to start a thread on this, oh also exodon king) has 3 75G Tanks 1 125G and a 220 custom tank all of the 3 75G tanks have AC110's on them from years ago never had a problem but his daughters 75G in her room has 2 EMP400's on them and he said that he's noticed that it removes debris a lot faster over a week period than his AC110's (both tanks, her's has a 6" PLECO and 2 5" p*ssy PACU (literally they dont ever mess with the pleco hahaha i find this hilarious) and one of his 75G has 2 8" PACU and the rest are all P TANKS so the mess is definitely there). Also i forgot to mention when the power goes out the EMP400 usually fires right back up after a few suctions but the AC110 if they aren't leveled right then they will need a boost firing back up and this can be a problem if your not home or sleeping while the power goes out.

anyone else have any input please add it in this thread im a fan of both filters just over the years of this is better than that and mainly my cousin and exodon king i wanted to start this thread to see everyone elses experienced input.


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## No0dles (Dec 16, 2003)

oh yeah i forgot to add about the BIO WHEELS a lot of people will say they are a marketing tool but that's not true. they work friggin' great. the downfall is if you have a pretty big tank you need more than one emp400 to use the wheels for sufficient bio filtration. a good thing is if you need to setup another tank you can take the bio wheel put it on the other filter and speed up the process


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## Lifer374 (Dec 5, 2003)

+1 on the Emp400.
All my experiences with the AC's have been bad ones. Mainly being impeller issues. 
I can't say the same about the Emp400's I've ran.


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## jamezgt (Jun 24, 2008)

Tango374 said:


> +1 on the Emp400.
> All my experiences with the AC's have been bad ones. Mainly being impeller issues.
> I can't say the same about the Emp400's I've ran.


I have to admit that the impeller has caused some issues on the Aquaclears. But I have Aquaclear HOB's on all my tanks and I love them. I previously ran an Emperor 400 on my 75G and it left my tank really cloudy for two weeks. I finally decided to buy a used AC110 and within hours the water was clearing up. The Emperor 400 also made a lot of noise that I couldn't fix. Those are my two cents.

Both are great filters though, but I would have to give it to the AC110.


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## shiver905 (May 27, 2009)

imma AC fan,
always have been

Never owned a 400 tho, so im bais


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## exodon king (Mar 25, 2009)

its already been said. emp = useless. (in comparison)

bio wheel = useless marketing tool. the idea is that it increases exposure to oxygen, increasing cycling and bacteria growth. but when the wheel stops spinning, (and it will),at least 50% the bacteria on the wheel dies. 
the paper material its made out of holds about as much surface area as 5 bio-max pellets (comes standard with the aquaclear filters).

spraybar (for bio fail) = clogs, rendering the already useless bio wheels even more so. clogged spray bar = wheel not spinning = dry wheel = dead bacteria.

wheel track (little plastic notch the bio-fail sits in) = clogs, resulting in the same scenario as the useless spraybar

impeller housing = noisy

filter cartridges = useless and expensive. only a portion of the cartridge gets used at a time (from the top down as it clogs up more) and they are supposed to be changed bi monthly. do the math. even if you change them monthly, youre looking at $15/mo for 2 years.

media volume = BAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. nearly non existent. even when using the "fillable cartridges", you get a mere fraction of the media volume that you do with the aquaclear filters. (while the ac110 boasts about 4l of media space. the same as most large canisters.

flow rate = LOW. because of the waterfall design with only 400gph (compared to 500 on the ac110), you miss a lot of debris in the tank, and the waterfall does not kick up enough from the substrate to make up for it.

customizing options = NONE. with the exception of the thin "fillable cartridges" that barely hold any media, you dont have any options. the tubing is that stupid rectangular pipe, so any custom plumbing is out of the question. and you cant just drop more bio-media into the chamber behind the cartridges because the design does not allow the water to flow through it, rather around and over.

reliability = slim. assuming nothing breaks or gets clogged on your filter. you will be lucky to get a few years out of a emperor filter. meanwhile, my oldest ac110 is 8 years old (maybe a little more), and i know people who have had ac500 (the old name for the ac110) running for 15-20 years.

overall design = fail

cost = the only thing the emperor has over the aquaclear. but YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR

if you dont mind a faulty piece of garbage with expensive cartridges that you have to constantly replace. but like the "preety design" of the useless bio-wheels. by all means, waste your money. i mean hell, its your money.

however, if you actually want a useful and far superior filter, do yourself and your fish a favor and pick up an ac110. its basically a hang on canister at a fraction of the price.

100more gph flow rate (for better mechanical filtration)
EXTREMELY more media volume (for better mechanical/biological filtration. and for faster nitrogen cycling) the ac110 holds all the media from my eheim 2227 (as you can see in the other thread)
SUPERIOR design 
no expensive cartridges. (you may have to replace the mech media in the filter once every 5 years)
quiet operation
easy to customize both your filtration regimen as well as the plumbing (if youre into that kind of thing. i do it to just about all my filters, further maximizing performance)
reliable (will easily outlive your fish)
easy to use and clean (rinse media in a bucket of tank water, replace, plug back in)
lower power usage (i believe 15w less. while this may not seem like a big deal, if you, like me, run a lot of filters on a lot of tanks, the power cost can add up. not a major factor, but definitely another plus for the AC system)

and thats without going into the patented refiltration system built in to all aquaclear filters which FURTHER improves filtration. (for those clowns who might make ridiculous claims that the emperor filters are "more intricate". last i checked, theres no such system on any marineland filter)

as ive already said. i used the emperor (and penguin where applicable) EXCLUSIVELY at one point, but after research and experience with the aquaclear HOB filters, i will never again waste money, or suggest anyone else waste money on emperor filters when you can get a superior product for only a little more.
i dont have a biased opinion, i just know what works better. nor do i work for hagen (makers of the aquaclear filter, as well as the fluval series and many other reputable filters.), and i gain nothing from suggesting the filter to people. rather, im saving some people the time and money by giving my first hand experience over the years with these and other filters. the AC110 will cost you a little more initially, but when you add up the cost of the cartridges on the emperor, as well as the fact that the AC110 will potentially last you 20 years, the filter pays for itself.

if anyone has any further questions about the aqualear filter, custom plumbing, the refiltration system, or would like me to futher elaborate on any of the facts posted. feel free to PM me, or shoot me an email. im happy to help you.


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## Piranha Guru (Nov 24, 2005)

It's all about personal preference and which one meets the needs of your application. Both have Pros and Cons and we could go round and round on which is better. I personally would like to see a hybrid of the two, or better yet an Eheim Liberty that has the flow rate of either of these.


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## Lifer374 (Dec 5, 2003)

Out of pretty much that whole write up I will agree with one thing only. And thats the media options for the AC. I ran four media inserts in my 400, cleaning them bi-weekly and swithing them out every few months. I was lucky though, my LFS carries a generic brand of insert that cost half of marinelands. I hated dealing with those filters after the first year.

Over a span of 4 to 5 years with multiple units I never had a clogged spraybar, "wheel stoppage" or noisey impeller (issues that weren't corrected by dropping in a new impeller). However, if anybodies ever ran one of these units for an extended period of time its 
its very easy to see how lack of maintence can result in issues like those.

My issues with aquaclear seem to be unique. At different times both of my AC110's became more noisey then I could bear anymore. After multiple take downs and cleanings, I decided it was nessasary to order new impellers. When I got them, they in no way corrected the problem. I contacted their customer services and thats when things really went downhill. I don't care if you have the superior product or not, if I have a problem and you are not going to take care of me then I don't want your product. 
My AC's went into the garbage, along with my Aquaclear powerheads (I was replacing them with Hydor's anyway).


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

i vot ac for the larger flow and that it can hold lots of media. They are solid overall and ive have a smaller model thats probably at least 10 years old. The media doesnt really ever have to be replaced except carbon or something like that since its a plastic mechanical pad no that filter floss. Emps as other people have said work good, but the larger media capacity and flow rate make them almost as good as a cannister as the can hold like a bucket of media. With ac's you can also slow down the flow abit and it will just recycle the water in the chamber.


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## No0dles (Dec 16, 2003)

this is where i wanted the thread to go! nice replies guys, and thanks exodon king


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## exodon king (Mar 25, 2009)

Tango374 said:


> Out of pretty much that whole write up I will agree with one thing only. And thats the media options for the AC. I ran four media inserts in my 400, cleaning them bi-weekly and swithing them out every few months. I was lucky though, my LFS carries a generic brand of insert that cost half of marinelands. I hated dealing with those filters after the first year.
> 
> Over a span of 4 to 5 years with multiple units I never had a clogged spraybar, "wheel stoppage" or noisey impeller (issues that weren't corrected by dropping in a new impeller). However, if anybodies ever ran one of these units for an extended period of time its
> its very easy to see how lack of maintence can result in issues like those.
> ...


regardless of what you "agree with". everything posted is a fact, not just a matter of opinion.
i have worked with both filters, along with many other HOB filters not mentioned, and overall, the aquaclear system is by far the best.

its obvious youre nothing more then a marineland fanboy, and thats your take on the subject. and thats perfectly fine. like i said. its your money to waste. but to make a statement that only the media volume is correct, it just plain ridiculous. and further leads me to believe you dont really have much experience with both filters.

fact: the aquaclear has a much higher flow rate, resulting in better overall mechanical filtration
fact: the aquaclear filter uses apx 15w less energy then the emperor
fact: the aquaclear design forces water through ALL the media for 100% contact, resulting in both better mechanical and biological filtration. (chemical too, if you use it. but most applications do not need chemical filtration)
fact: the aquaclear uses a rinseable media as its primary means of mechanical filtration, and it only needs to be changed once every 5 years. while the marineland filters force you to use their expensive cartridges
fact: the aquaclear filter can potentially last you 20 years (unlike the marineland that averages maybe 3-5?)
fact: the impeller housing on the aquaclear filters are much quieter. the only noise you will tend to hear out of your aquaclear filter is the sound of the "waterfall", which can get noisy if you dont keep your tank properly filled. but thats a user error.
fact: the aquaclear is built with a patented refiltration system which gives apx 30-50% of the water going through it, a second pass through the filter media. (again, further improving both mechanical and biological filtration)
fact: the aquaclear filter design allows for easy customization of both filter media, as well as custom plumbing. (while the marineland design does not allow for either)
fact: the aquaclear filter wil initially cost you maybe $20-30 more (havnt checked the prices recently). but that price difference, as well as the rest of the cost of the filter is made up very quickly by not having to buy replacement filter cartridges. ($30 will buy you maybe 2 packs of cartridges)

it has nothing to do with personal preference when you make a side by side comparison. check the facts. the aquaclear filter outshines the marineland filter in every aspect. 
maybe if it were a close call, i could see going with one or the other. but these two filters arent even close.

the ONLY "con" of the aquaclear system is the price. but again, that has been addressed 3 times now.even if you were dumb enough to only change them once a year (when the package clearly states how often to change the cartridges), then in 2 years, you will have still made up the money for the aquaclear. only difference is, the marineland would only have 3 more years (potentially), while the aquaclear still has 18 more years of life.

do the math.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

exodon king said:


> Out of pretty much that whole write up I will agree with one thing only. And thats the media options for the AC. I ran four media inserts in my 400, cleaning them bi-weekly and swithing them out every few months. I was lucky though, my LFS carries a generic brand of insert that cost half of marinelands. I hated dealing with those filters after the first year.
> 
> Over a span of 4 to 5 years with multiple units I never had a clogged spraybar, "wheel stoppage" or noisey impeller (issues that weren't corrected by dropping in a new impeller). However, if anybodies ever ran one of these units for an extended period of time its
> its very easy to see how lack of maintence can result in issues like those.
> ...


regardless of what you "agree with". everything posted is a fact, not just a matter of opinion.
i have worked with both filters, along with many other HOB filters not mentioned, and overall, the aquaclear system is by far the best.

its obvious youre nothing more then a marineland fanboy, and thats your take on the subject. and thats perfectly fine. like i said. its your money to waste. but to make a statement that only the media volume is correct, it just plain ridiculous. and further leads me to believe you dont really have much experience with both filters.

fact: the aquaclear has a much higher flow rate, resulting in better overall mechanical filtration * Emps do use finer media though then standard ac media*
fact: the aquaclear filter uses apx 15w less energy then the emperor
fact: the aquaclear design forces water through ALL the media for 100% * Emp can go through 4 cartriges for mech media, but i cant deny ac can hold more bio * contact, resulting in both better mechanical and biological filtration. (chemical too, if you use it. but most applications do not need chemical filtration)
fact: the aquaclear uses a rinseable media as its primary means of mechanical filtration, and it only needs to be changed once every 5 years. while the marineland filters force you to use their expensive cartridges*I thin kyou cna buy refillable cartriges. I have them in my penguins and they have filter floss in one and a ac like sponge in the other*
fact: the aquaclear filter can potentially last you 20 years (unlike the marineland that averages maybe 3-5?)* I dont think these are really facts, but an ac could probably outlast an emp, but i doubt by that much.*
fact: the impeller housing on the aquaclear filters are much quieter* Ive heard repots on both filters that the impeller can get loud*. the only noise you will tend to hear out of your aquaclear filter is the sound of the "waterfall", which can get noisy if you dont keep your tank properly filled. but thats a user error.
fact: the aquaclear is built with a patented refiltration system which gives apx 30-50% of the water going through it, a second pass through the filter media. (again, further improving both mechanical and biological filtration)* The refiltration system does decrease flow though*
fact: the aquaclear filter design allows for easy customization of both filter media, as well as custom plumbing*Im sure you could customize plumbing on emps too if you wanted too.*. (while the marineland design does not allow for either)
fact: the aquaclear filter wil initially cost you maybe $20-30 more (havnt checked the prices recently). but that price difference, as well as the rest of the cost of the filter is made up very quickly by not having to buy replacement filter cartridges. ($30 will buy you maybe 2 packs of cartridges)

it has nothing to do with personal preference when you make a side by side comparison*That wasnt a side by side comparison. If it was it was very bias since you only said the pros of ac's and said nothing on emps.*. check the facts. the aquaclear filter outshines the marineland filter in every aspect. 
maybe if it were a close call, i could see going with one or the other. but these two filters arent even close.

the ONLY "con" of the aquaclear system is the price. but again, that has been addressed 3 times now.even if you were dumb enough to only change them once a year (when the package clearly states how often to change the cartridges), then in 2 years, you will have still made up the money for the aquaclear. only difference is, the marineland would only have 3 more years (potentially), while the aquaclear still has 18 more years of life.

do the math.*Pros of acvs. pros of emp (which you neglected to mention any)= a slightly biased opinion* 
[/quote]
All im saying is you cant just say its the best because all the stuff it has when emps have their own features.


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## exodon king (Mar 25, 2009)

what features? the emperor has NOTHING. just those useless bio-wheels which dont actually work like people think they do. do yourself a favor and read through the thread again. you might actually learn something. 
(also, google "bio wheel stopped spinning" and do some reading.)

i listen only one PRO for the emperors, BECAUSE THEIR IS ONLY ONE. the price. besides that, there are NO advantages to owning an emperor.
besides, as i mentiond 4 times now, but you seem to miss every time. I HAVE OWNED AND USED BOTH. i used emperors EXCLUSIVELY for many years. it has nothing to do with a biased opinion, rather an EDUCATED COMPARISON, based on the fact that i have used both.

and again, everything you decided to revamp is WRONG. it has already been discussed over and over. everything i listed is a fact weather you have the capacity to understand it or not.

please think about what you say before you do so. it saves you from looking foolish.

the emperor does not use "finer" media. im not even sure what that means. the fact of the matter is, any media you can put into a canister, you can put into an aquaclear. NOT TRUE WITH EMPERORS.

the water flows over and around the cartridges, NOT THROUGH IT. some of it does go through the top part of the cartridge, but realistically you only het 60% media contact at any given time.

the refillable cartridges HOLD BARELY ANY MEDIA VOLUME. regardless of what you put in them, you will never get anywhere close to the media volume or contact that you do with an aquacler.

the years of reliability IS A FACT. both on how ild mine are as well as the people i know who have had them running for 15+ years.
i dont know how many times i have to say it for you to understand, so this will be that last time. if you cant grasp the concept then there is absolutely no hope for you.

ther refiltration system decreases the flow, ONLY AS MUCH AS YOU ADJUST IT. unluike the crappy marineland filters, the aquaclear is adjustable. and even at the lowest setting, it does more for your tank then an emperor.
and NO. YOU CAN NOT DO CUSTOM PLUMBING. 
go to your local hardware store and try to find rectangular dubing that is the same shape/size. YOU WONT FIND IT. i looked. i tried doing it many years back, and such a product is not available.

i made contrasts and comparisons in each line, and referance to both filters. the reason you may think its biased is because THERE ARE NO PROS TO OWNING AN EMPEROR FILTER, besides the price, which was addressed many times.

please do not respond unless you have something intelligent to add. something more then"well, i like emperors because their better".
all the facts have been pointed out numerous times, and do not need to be said again. i have already dont this study a few times, and there is no need to go over indisputable facts again.

with that said.
if anyone has any further questions about the filters or wants to know how to do the plumbing for further efficiency, feel free to PM or email me. i have nothing more to add here. its already been said.

-king


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## Piranha Guru (Nov 24, 2005)

exodon king said:


> what features? the emperor has NOTHING. just those useless bio-wheels which dont actually work like people think they do. do yourself a favor and read through the thread again. you might actually learn something.
> (also, google "bio wheel stopped spinning" and do some reading.) *I've never had a biowheel stop on an Emperor...not with the power on anyhow*
> 
> i listen only one PRO for the emperors, BECAUSE THEIR IS ONLY ONE. the price. besides that, there are NO advantages to owning an emperor.*personal opinion*
> ...


ACs versus Penguins, and more of your "facts" would hold water. Most of your facts are comparing apples to oranges featurewise and the "refiltration system" is quite possibly the most ridiculous term to explain why water bypasses media in an AC. Sponges that last 5 years? The pore structure breaks down long before that and any other media won't last any longer in an AC than an Emp. I've never had to replace a biowheels and I have several filters over 5 years old.

I'll concede 3 "facts":

1) It has a higher flow rate when set up properly.

2) It is easier to modify for those that it doesn't meet there needs as is (all your media "facts" go here)...kind of begs the question as to why buy it and not another filter?

3) It costs more and is made of cheaper materials...my biggest beef with these filters.

Like the the many different makes of canister filters, it all boils down to your application and personal preference for these 2 fine HOBs. I would recommend either depending on the user and use as both are highly capable filters. If I were biased I would say Emp, but I realize the potential of both systems and leave it up to the hobbyist to decide which is best for them.


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## exodon king (Mar 25, 2009)

bahahahha. your idiocy is extremely amusing. thank you for the laugh


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## Lifer374 (Dec 5, 2003)

exodon king said:


> its obvious youre nothing more then a marineland fanboy


If you're going to call me a name at least get right..... "Eheim Fanboy" is a more accurate discription.
I gave up on hang-ons years ago.

My experience with those AC's would of been alot better had the company given two shits about its customers. They made that abundantly clear to me. Case closed for my situation. So don't get so worked up.

This is f*cking dumb....


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## No0dles (Dec 16, 2003)

wow!


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## shiver905 (May 27, 2009)

Noodle you knew this thread would start a fight.
I know u knew.

Instigating SOB









MAKE IT INTO A GOD DAMN POLL. I wanna vote.
AT least on here considering i dont got my green card.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

bahahahha. your ignorance is extremely amusing. thank you for the laugh

There is no scientific method that you used this is based on your opinion. I cant deny they have features like higher flow, but if your doing a comparison you cant just talk about one side.

Also, i have already relized that you are a hypocrite as you seem to hate emps yet you have said you used to use them for years. So their that bad it took you years to realize? Wow you are slow.


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## exodon king (Mar 25, 2009)

wow, you really are an idiot.
again. if you read the first post, i make clear contrasts to both filters. there are no pros listed for the emperor filters, BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE TO LIST.

lol. i dont know why i waste time responding to idiots like you.

i have used inline flow meters as well as the concepts of simple physics to do tests on both products. abut you dont need such equipment to see the major difference in these filters. just take the emperor off of a tank its already running on, and replace it with an ac110. you will instantly SEE a difference.

and the reason i used emperors for years before the ac system is because i didnt know about them. they were not available where i lived, and i was not exposed to them until much later. however upon operatin both at the same time, and seeing the difference. i have never turned back.

seriously guys. if you dont have a clue, dont post anything. it just makes you look even more ignorant. especially if you dont actually have the experience with both products.

im done here. the facts are all listed, and have been tested. if you want to waste money on a crappy marineland filter, thats your business. but the fact of the matter is there is a superior product out there if you want it.


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## No0dles (Dec 16, 2003)

shiver905 said:


> Noodle you knew this thread would start a fight.
> I know u knew.
> 
> Instigating SOB
> ...


haha actually i wasnt trying to start a fight i was trying to start a heated debate haha i knew this was gonna happen with ek up in here. but my cousin mainly put me up to this he frequents this forum a lot and me and him go into it about AC110's vs. EMP400's (he owns a exotic pet store and aquarium maintenance service) haha but yeah exodon king has great info when it comes to AC110's even though it's mainly one sided but yeah mainly why i wanted him to post his 2cents on here, now people can read this thread and determine outcome for themselves.


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## No0dles (Dec 16, 2003)

also there's too many variables that come into play to turn it into a poll


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## exodon king (Mar 25, 2009)

No0dles said:


> Noodle you knew this thread would start a fight.
> I know u knew.
> 
> Instigating SOB
> ...


haha actually i wasnt trying to start a fight i was trying to start a heated debate haha i knew this was gonna happen with ek up in here. but my cousin mainly put me up to this he frequents this forum a lot and me and him go into it about AC110's vs. EMP400's (he owns a exotic pet store and aquarium maintenance service) haha but yeah exodon king has great info when it comes to AC110's even though it's mainly one sided but yeah mainly why i wanted him to post his 2cents on here, now people can read this thread and determine outcome for themselves.
[/quote]

it just sounds one sided because there is nothing good to add about the emperor filters. but i made direct connections to both in each comparison.
so far everyone who has claimed that my info is one sided, has yet to post anything factual about the emperor filter that would be considered a "pro" over the aquaclear system.
in fact, most of the people here dont even have the experience with both systems to be able to make such a comparison.
i would gladly post an advantage to the emperor system, if there was one.

lets see. oh yeah. marineland had a good customer service department from what i understand. BUT ONLY BECAUSE THEY NEED ONE. with their products breaking and malfunctioning so often, they NEED to have an entire international team of customer service reps to answer their phones and replace their shitty products hundreds of times daily.

so i guess thats one plus to owning an emperor. when it breaks, you can have it replaced with an equally crap product quickly and at no charge.










but youre right. the info is all there. and people can decide for themselves what to spend their own money on. it really doesnt effect me either way. i know which one works best, and i will continue to use the superior product, but if others chose not to, thats their business.
no sweat off my balls.

good thread though







lol

also, let your cousin know that if he has any questions about these systems, functionality, media regimens, or customization, he can always email me directly, and ill be glad to answer any of his questions.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Exo King-
Keep your personal comments/attacks out of the thread-
Discuss like an adult-

Emp for me-
Never have and never will spend money on an AC filter-----But I use sumps now-Forget all the garbage with HOB's.......Pointless no matter how one looks at them...


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## exodon king (Mar 25, 2009)

AKSkirmish said:


> Exo King-
> Keep your personal comments/attacks out of the thread-
> Discuss like an adult-


bahahah. if there were other adults discussing here id be happy to do so, but as there dont seem to be, i try do discuss in the language of the people to make it easier to understand. either way it doesnt fare well. theres just no getting through to some people.

but as i said. i have nothing further to add to the so called "debate". so you dont have to worry about me anymore AK.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

exodon king said:


> wow, you really are an idiot.
> again. if you read the first post, i make clear contrasts to both filters. there are no pros listed for the emperor filters, BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE TO LIST.*No pros yet you use emps for years... interesting. Im sure all the people that use emps dont see any pros either eh? Before you continue writing make sure to include "IMO"*
> 
> lol. i dont know why i waste time responding to idiots like you.* clearly im the idiot yep...*
> ...


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

exodon king said:


> Exo King-
> Keep your personal comments/attacks out of the thread-
> Discuss like an adult-


bahahah. if there were other adults discussing here id be*"Nothing more then a marinelandfanboy"
"do the math"
"bahahahha. your idiocy is extremely amusing. thank you for the laugh" Wow you must be the mature one. Those were also before peopel were sayign anythign about you btw.
* happy to do so, but as there dont seem to be, i try do discuss in the language of the people to make it easier to understand. either way it doesnt fare well. theres just no getting through to some people.

but as i said. i have nothing further to add to the so called "debate". so you dont have to worry about me anymore AK.








[/quote]

I dont know if you have seen, but im not the only one defending emps. Or perhaps me Ak and bioteach are all idiots.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

sean-820 said:


> Exo King-
> Keep your personal comments/attacks out of the thread-
> Discuss like an adult-


bahahah. if there were other adults discussing here id be*"Nothing more then a marinelandfanboy"
"do the math"
"bahahahha. your idiocy is extremely amusing. thank you for the laugh" Wow you must be the mature one. Those were also before peopel were sayign anythign about you btw.
* happy to do so, but as there dont seem to be, i try do discuss in the language of the people to make it easier to understand. either way it doesnt fare well. theres just no getting through to some people.

but as i said. i have nothing further to add to the so called "debate". so you dont have to worry about me anymore AK.








[/quote]

I dont know if you have seen, but im not the only one defending emps. Or perhaps me Ak and bioteach are all idiots.
[/quote]

I have no clue on what I am talking about-

Just spittin out random garbage again









I just dont get into these debates------Everyone has their opinions-And posting stuff like this isn't going to change ones mind....So I see no need in getting into them in the first place....


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## exodon king (Mar 25, 2009)

there in lies the difference. i DO know what im talking about, and provide the factual information for those who want it. however some people are unable to retain and compute that information, and in the end, its their loss.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

exodon king said:


> there in lies the difference. i DO know what im talking about, and provide the factual information for those who want it. however some people are unable to retain and compute that information, and in the end, its their loss.


Damn it was a joke-

Sump or nothing...Period


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## exodon king (Mar 25, 2009)

i build a lot of sumps/ FW refugiums too. but that wasnt the topic of the thread, so i never felt the need to bring it up.
way to stay on topic







lol


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## Piranha Guru (Nov 24, 2005)

sean-820 said:


> I dont know if you have seen, but im not the only one defending emps. Or perhaps me Ak and bioteach are all idiots.


Depends on if we are talking "facts" or "opinions".









I know first hand that AK is an idiot...and I DO know what I am talking about.
















I'll stick with what works for me and stay away from what didn't...my serra tanks at home don't even use HOBs, but they still have other crappy Marineland products on them that have been trouble free for years (I only have one Hagen product left that I use on temp setups...a Fluval 104). My classroom tanks have to use HOBs and Eclipse Hoods since they are on lab counters and all but one has crappy biowheel Marineland HOT Mags, Eclipse Hoods, or an Emp 280 on them...the one that doesn't has 2 Eheim Liberties on it. The first couple of tanks I set up in there used ACs because that is what the school purchased and they were replaced within a year out of my pocket due to reliability and performance issues. The 5 tanks I set up with my Marineland filters are all still in use today...well, the filters are as a tank or two has been replaced. The only teacher using an AC filter today is using an old AC500 I gave him along with a 50g breeder for his solo red...it is doing fine and is the reason I haven't written off ACs entirely.

I have had plenty of other Emp setups that I sold off with tanks or gave away to other teachers when their ACs failed, but you don't see me saying there are NO PROS to owning an AC even though I gave up on them. That's my bad for not retaining and computing ALL the information on each filter.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

How are the Eheim Liberties? I have seen them before in big als cataloge, but i have never owned one. To be honest it doesn't look to high tech, but its made by eheim and it could be like their classic models that are very simple but work well.


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## Lifer374 (Dec 5, 2003)

I ran a tank with one of the Marineland HOTs for quite some time. I was extremely impressed and have thought from time to time about putting one on my 75 gallon to run along side my 2217. Thats the only thing near a hang-on that I'll go with anymore. I had too good of an experience for far too long to not concider that at the top of the list if I go that route again

Sean is that the Eheim Hang on your talking about? I have never heard of anyone running one of those which really surprizes me.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

Tango374 said:


> I ran a tank with one of the Marineland HOTs for quite some time. I was extremely impressed and have thought from time to time about putting one on my 75 gallon to run along side my 2217. Thats the only thing near a hang-on that I'll go with anymore. I had too good of an experience for far too long to not concider that at the top of the list if I go that route again
> 
> Sean is that the Eheim Hang on your talking about? I have never heard of anyone running one of those which really surprizes me.


The m is called liberty, it is different then hot's. They are just like normal hob filters, but eheim makes them.


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## Lifer374 (Dec 5, 2003)

sean-820 said:


> The m is called liberty, it is different then hot's. They are just like normal hob filters, but eheim makes them.


yeah, I've seen them before, just didn't know what they were called.


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## No0dles (Dec 16, 2003)

exodon king said:


> Noodle you knew this thread would start a fight.
> I know u knew.
> 
> Instigating SOB
> ...


haha actually i wasnt trying to start a fight i was trying to start a heated debate haha i knew this was gonna happen with ek up in here. but my cousin mainly put me up to this he frequents this forum a lot and me and him go into it about AC110's vs. EMP400's (he owns a exotic pet store and aquarium maintenance service) haha but yeah exodon king has great info when it comes to AC110's even though it's mainly one sided but yeah mainly why i wanted him to post his 2cents on here, now people can read this thread and determine outcome for themselves.
[/quote]

it just sounds one sided because there is nothing good to add about the emperor filters. but i made direct connections to both in each comparison.
so far everyone who has claimed that my info is one sided, has yet to post anything factual about the emperor filter that would be considered a "pro" over the aquaclear system.
in fact, most of the people here dont even have the experience with both systems to be able to make such a comparison.
i would gladly post an advantage to the emperor system, if there was one.

lets see. oh yeah. marineland had a good customer service department from what i understand. BUT ONLY BECAUSE THEY NEED ONE. with their products breaking and malfunctioning so often, they NEED to have an entire international team of customer service reps to answer their phones and replace their shitty products hundreds of times daily.

so i guess thats one plus to owning an emperor. when it breaks, you can have it replaced with an equally crap product quickly and at no charge.










but youre right. the info is all there. and people can decide for themselves what to spend their own money on. it really doesnt effect me either way. i know which one works best, and i will continue to use the superior product, but if others chose not to, thats their business.
no sweat off my balls.

good thread though







lol

also, let your cousin know that if he has any questions about these systems, functionality, media regimens, or customization, he can always email me directly, and ill be glad to answer any of his questions.
[/quote]

haha you and my cousin would get along great EK he praises AC110's over EMP400's but he's a little wishy washy on the subject he agrees it has a lot to do with the customers setup and what they want to determine which one is better, he recommends sumps all day long keeping everything out of the tank makes em look better too. i've used EMP400's and AC110's since i've been in the hobby and what i wrote was pretty much everything i could sum up from my experiences with them. maybe i could write a little more but i think i summed it up pretty good. either way, im for EMP400's, AC110's can lick my balls














hahaha jk dont take this subject so personal, you act like you invented the damn AC110's.


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## Piranha Guru (Nov 24, 2005)

sean-820 said:


> How are the Eheim Liberties? I have seen them before in big als cataloge, but i have never owned one. To be honest it doesn't look to high tech, but its made by eheim and it could be like their classic models that are very simple but work well.


They are the quietest HOB you can buy and the cost is pretty good for what you get. I bought a smaller model back in the day for a 10g and it is currently on my in-laws 10g betta tank and they love it. The model I have on my 36g bow is the 200 (2042) with 4-6 media slots (1 sponge = 2 carbon cartridge slots). You can run all sponges, all carbon cartridges, or sponges and the carbon cartridges (I run one 2 carbon and 2 sponges = 1 of each per side). Their carbon cartridges are reasonably priced, and you can easily put all sorts of media in the filter...just slap it in a filter bag for easy maintenance. The output is adjustable too. The only downfall is that their largest model only has a flow rate of 200gph, so not real good for piranha tanks unless you use 2 of the 200s on a 29-40g tank for a small, solo serra like a sanchezi.

I've got 2 of the 200s on a my sanchezi's 36g bow and am pleased...perfect since the top has a crossbrace that couldn't accommodate an Emp 400 or Penguin 350 (or AC110 or 70). Two Emp 280s would have been too costly and overkill...I had one 280 on there with a HOT Magnum, but it turned it into a washing machine! Anyhow, the Eheims were as cheap or cheaper than AC 50s and Penguin 200s so I gave them a shot. I wish they would come out with a bigger HOB with higher flow for larger tanks...then this thread would be pointless!


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

BioTeAcH said:


> How are the Eheim Liberties? I have seen them before in big als cataloge, but i have never owned one. To be honest it doesn't look to high tech, but its made by eheim and it could be like their classic models that are very simple but work well.


They are the quietest HOB you can buy and the cost is pretty good for what you get. I bought a smaller model back in the day for a 10g *4- 6 slots is sweet. Would they happen to have refillable cartriges, or do you have to replace all 4-6?*and it is currently on my in-laws 10g betta tank and they love it. The model I have on my 36g bow is the 200 (2042) with 4-6 media slots (1 sponge = 2 carbon cartridge slots). You can run all sponges, all carbon cartridges, or sponges and the carbon cartridges (I run one 2 carbon and 2 sponges = 1 of each per side). Their carbon cartridges are reasonably priced, and you can easily put all sorts of media in the filter...just slap it in a filter bag for easy maintenance. The output is adjustable too. The only downfall is that their largest model only has a flow rate of 200gph*shouldn like eheim though. Even their canisters are low flow rate, they jst do quality filtration over quantity*, so not real good for piranha tanks unless you use 2 of the 200s on a 29-40g tank for a small, solo serra like a sanchezi.

I've got 2 of the 200s on a my sanchezi's 36g bow and am pleased...perfect since the top has a crossbrace that couldn't accommodate an Emp 400 or Penguin 350 (or AC110 or 70). Two Emp 280s would have been too costly and overkill...I had one 280 on there with a HOT Magnum, but it turned it into a washing machine! Anyhow, the Eheims were as cheap or cheaper than AC 50s and Penguin 200s so I gave them a shot. I wish they would come out with a bigger HOB with higher flow for larger tanks...then this thread would be pointless!*I dont think eheim has anythign with a large flow rate except that one filtter thats like the fx5 but by eheim thats for up to 400-500 gals. Like my ac100 can do more gph then my classic 2217, but the eheim is great especially for the amount of bio media it can hold.*
[/quote]


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## Piranha Guru (Nov 24, 2005)

sean-820 said:


> How are the Eheim Liberties? I have seen them before in big als cataloge, but i have never owned one. To be honest it doesn't look to high tech, but its made by eheim and it could be like their classic models that are very simple but work well.


They are the quietest HOB you can buy and the cost is pretty good for what you get. I bought a smaller model back in the day for a 10g *4- 6 slots is sweet. Would they happen to have refillable cartriges, or do you have to replace all 4-6?*and it is currently on my in-laws 10g betta tank and they love it. The model I have on my 36g bow is the 200 (2042) with 4-6 media slots (1 sponge = 2 carbon cartridge slots). You can run all sponges, all carbon cartridges, or sponges and the carbon cartridges (I run one 2 carbon and 2 sponges = 1 of each per side). Their carbon cartridges are reasonably priced, and you can easily put all sorts of media in the filter...just slap it in a filter bag for easy maintenance. The output is adjustable too. The only downfall is that their largest model only has a flow rate of 200gph*shouldn like eheim though. Even their canisters are low flow rate, they jst do quality filtration over quantity*, so not real good for piranha tanks unless you use 2 of the 200s on a 29-40g tank for a small, solo serra like a sanchezi.

I've got 2 of the 200s on a my sanchezi's 36g bow and am pleased...perfect since the top has a crossbrace that couldn't accommodate an Emp 400 or Penguin 350 (or AC110 or 70). Two Emp 280s would have been too costly and overkill...I had one 280 on there with a HOT Magnum, but it turned it into a washing machine! Anyhow, the Eheims were as cheap or cheaper than AC 50s and Penguin 200s so I gave them a shot. I wish they would come out with a bigger HOB with higher flow for larger tanks...then this thread would be pointless!*I dont think eheim has anythign with a large flow rate except that one filtter thats like the fx5 but by eheim thats for up to 400-500 gals. Like my ac100 can do more gph then my classic 2217, but the eheim is great especially for the amount of bio media it can hold.*
[/quote]
[/quote]

No refillable cartridges that I am aware of...you could reuse the sponge frame and put your own sponge or foam in there though, but that would be more for preference and not cost. The carbonized cartridges are really interesting. The carbon is impregnated into the material. I guess it is similar to their carbon pads for their canisters in composition. The way the filter is designed, you can just drop a media bag in there really easily and fill it to fit. I would do that behind the carbon pad in place of a sponge for the greatest volume. They used to sell single slot sized sponge cartridges, so you could use those in place of a carbon cartridge I guess...I'd have to see one again to be sure.


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## Zip (Apr 17, 2005)

BioTeAcH said:


> ACs versus Penguins, and more of your "facts" would hold water. Most of your facts are comparing apples to oranges featurewise and the "refiltration system" is quite possibly the most ridiculous term to explain why water bypasses media in an AC. Sponges that last 5 years? The pore structure breaks down long before that and any other media won't last any longer in an AC than an Emp. I've never had to replace a biowheels and I have several filters over 5 years old.
> 
> I'll concede 3 "facts":
> 
> ...


I agree with all of BioTeach's points (including his comments on the diatribe), except for point 3) above. Seems to me the Emp's plastic is better quality than the AC - far less brittle. Actually, I had to take the first AC I bought back to the store for replacement, because I found that its tank was shattered when I unsealed the box it was in - something that would be more difficult to do to the Emp's housing.

Also, my following observations are based on the old Emp design - I have no experience with the new ones, and I bought my AC about 4 yrs ago. With that said.......
1. I'll put this one first, since it was the most important one to me, and it hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread: I like the Emp's design best from a water leakage/overflow risk standpoint (and my first criteria in a filter is for it to keep my floors dry).....
A. There is no gasket assembly on the Emp (all solid housing) like there is on the AC, so no risk of a leak from there....I've read of several instances of this.
B. The AC had a cheapie little plastic tab that you had to insert into the bottom of the housing so that it would lean forward enough so that in the event the filter clogged, the water wouldn't flow over the back of the housing onto the floor. I have a friend who didn't notice that little tab had broken off (again, brittle), and he came home to find the better part of his 75 gallon aquarium had been pumped onto his floor. I have read of other instances of this also.

2. Regarding Emp's longevity: I have 3 which have been running 12+ years. Each one has had their impeller replaced once - nothing else but filters. Their bio-wheels have never stopped turning.

3. The Emp's filters are admittedly pricey, but after learning that keeping fresh carbon in your filters was unnecessary (contrary to the manufacturers' claims), I began just rinsing them out, and now I get over a year out of a filter.

These days I have my Emps relegated to my "secondary" aquariums, and use Eheim cannisters on my showcase aquarium, but they still serve their purpose well. That's not to say that I think anything less of someone's intelligence who has chosen AC's for their own use - I just can't get whipped up into a religious fervor over HOB filters, sorry.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

Zip said:


> ACs versus Penguins, and more of your "facts" would hold water. Most of your facts are comparing apples to oranges featurewise and the "refiltration system" is quite possibly the most ridiculous term to explain why water bypasses media in an AC. Sponges that last 5 years? The pore structure breaks down long before that and any other media won't last any longer in an AC than an Emp. I've never had to replace a biowheels and I have several filters over 5 years old.
> 
> I'll concede 3 "facts":
> 
> ...


I agree with all of BioTeach's points (including his comments on the diatribe), except for point 3) above.*The way i read it i think he was refering to the ac being brittle, buti could be wrong* Seems to me the Emp's plastic is better quality than the AC - far less brittle. Actually, I had to take the first AC I bought back to the store for replacement, because I found that its tank was shattered when I unsealed the box it was in - something that would be more difficult to do to the Emp's housing.

Also, my following observations are based on the old Emp design - I have no experience with the new ones, and I bought my AC about 4 yrs ago. With that said.......
1. I'll put this one first, since it was the most important one to me, and it hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread: I like the Emp's design best from a water leakage/overflow risk standpoint (and my first criteria in a filter is for it to keep my floors dry).....
A. There is no gasket assembly on the Emp (all solid housing) like there is on the AC, so no risk of a leak from there....I've read of several instances of this.
B. The AC had a cheapie little plastic tab that you had to insert into the bottom of the housing so that it would lean forward enough so that in the event the filter clogged, the water wouldn't flow over the back of the housing onto the floor. I have a friend who didn't notice that little tab had broken off (again, brittle), and he came home to find the better part of his 75 gallon aquarium had been pumped onto his floor. I have read of other instances of this also.

2. Regarding Emp's longevity: I have 3 which have been running 12+ years. Each one has had their impeller replaced once - nothing else but filters. Their bio-wheels have never stopped turning.

3. The Emp's filters are admittedly pricey, but after learning that keeping fresh carbon in your filters was unnecessary (contrary to the manufacturers' claims), I began just rinsing them out, and now I get over a year out of a filter.

These days I have my Emps relegated to my "secondary" aquariums, and use Eheim cannisters on my showcase aquarium, but they still serve their purpose well. That's not to say that I think anything less of someone's intelligence who has chosen AC's for their own use - I just can't get whipped up into a religious fervor over HOB filters, sorry.
[/quote]

What, is this another person that doesn't think that ac's were made by the gods?


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## Piranha Guru (Nov 24, 2005)

My 3 "facts" were points I was conceding about the AC's, so we are in agreement on them being more cheaply made.


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## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

I have 9 ac 110's, and 5 ac 70's. Not one problem with any of them. IMO they're great filters. I had 1 of the marineland filters and I'm not a big fan of bio-wheels.


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## Zip (Apr 17, 2005)

BioTeAcH said:


> My 3 "facts" were points I was conceding about the AC's, so we are in agreement on them being more cheaply made.


Alrighty, sorry, I misread.


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## Pat (Jul 19, 2004)

To get the best of both worlds just put some aerator's under the ac's media. 
I've put biowheels on my ac's. I've also owned an EMP. Wheels work just poor flow rate and they trickle too loud or me.


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## No0dles (Dec 16, 2003)

the bio-wheels are no marketing gimmick they work great it's just if you have a large tank you need multiple wheels to have adequate bio-filtration.


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## michaelj (Nov 18, 2007)

cant speak on EMP400, never used one. but I love my AC's. Theyre the filter that retired the classic box filters and quickly killed the under gravel filter market in one swoop. they brought the world modern filtration. theyre not the best filters Today, if you wanna spend some real dough. but theres been more sold, used and put in the beginner hobbyists hand problem free than any other filter in the world. they are the bench mark purely on the fact of how common they are. I dont think theyre too expensive to purchase, considering how long they last. you can pack it with anything you want, and alot of it at that. you dont have to worry about floods on your floor. even impellers and magnets are cheap. a solid filter. I own 12 of them, I buy old ones used whenever I can, I only have 7 in use right now, one of them has had no maintenance 
since I got it used 11 years ago. not hatin on any other filters but you can never go wrong with a aqua clear. low maintenance and reliable, just like a good woman or car.


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## No0dles (Dec 16, 2003)

that's a bad example there because we all know if it's got tits or wheels you're gonna have problems haha and a good woman even a good car are HIGH maintenance


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

EMP all the Way. AC"S aren't bad, but they are cheap designed and also cost and extra 20-30$$$ depending on where you look. I've noticed that emp's also cleared the water and debris much quicker then any AC I've had, but if it were exodon_king he'd have to jump in and tell us his whole life story about AC and his god complex and that we're all wrong.


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