# The "Jurupari" Project



## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

I was searching the web for info on Eartheaters and I came across an intreging site about Eartheaters.










































heres a handy link


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

The information given on that link is very interesting...


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

does it match up with what you know about these fishes?


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

It doesn't really help that much. It just states in more of a scientific jargon that the two species are easily confused. I will take some pictures from that book I recommended when I get home from work. Perhaps that will help. They are actually very easy to tell apart. According to that, all the highly pearled ones are S. leucosticta. They even have a slightly different body shape. S. juraparis tend to appear more streamlined, especially at the snout.

I would venture to say that all of the fish pictured above, except for the bottom one, are S. leucosticta. But remember, I am no ichthyologist...I'm just going by what I have seen for myself along with research.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

so how is it that one species of fish can look so differant than others of the same species?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Here comes the scientific part! First of all the concept of a species is one still being argued by graduate students and professors all over. Second, geographic variation is always (and often) a possibility. Third, I'd say the conditions they were raised in; social, food, water conditions, etc. Fourth I'd go with dominance (more social conditioning) where testosterone (or 11-keto-testosterone...another story) influences appearance.

...And fifth, you can be a loser and inject fish with artificial dye


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

acestro said:


> Here comes the scientific part! First of all the concept of a species is one still being argued by graduate students and professors all over. Second, geographic variation is always (and often) a possibility. Third, I'd say the conditions they were raised in; social, food, water conditions, etc. Fourth I'd go with dominance (more social conditioning) where testosterone (or 11-keto-testosterone...another story) influences appearance.
> 
> ...And fifth, you can be a loser and inject fish with artificial dye


 can you explain these further?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

That's what this forum is for!
I think I'll leave species concepts for another thread. It boils down to does being able to reproduce and produce viable offspring make you a species or is it something more geographical or genetic. I guess that's not really boiled down...I'll get back to that!









Geographic variation is more like "races" or "subspecies". No one argues that we are one species but we have different races. If you catch a banded water snake in Louisiana it will have less bands than a banded water snake in Florida. Still considered the same species.

Conditions breaks down to "you are what you eat" and what other chemicals make up or influence what makes up yourself. Fast flow can lead to different muscles or fin development or loss that are plastic, meaning they won't look the same in different situations. Interactions can be included here with fish of the same and different species.

Social effects and the hormones work because being dominant or suppressed affects the hormone mixture and hormones have a lot to do with fish color. I'd also like to add that something as simple as the background the fish is against works too because a lot of the color in a fish comes from reflective materials and dark or light colors can influence mood as well.

And injecting dye is just us human losers thinking we can match up with what God and/or nature does so much better!


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

so is a species a species because it will breed with each other?

as far as I know plattys can interbreed with swordtails - but these are seperate species









how does that work?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

It doesn't. It's the biological species concept and it has inherent flaws unless you add stipulations to it. A supporter of this concept would, however, point out that there are barriers to this happening in the wild. Consistant differences in the genetics could work better but this can possibly make for too many species! Not trivial, either. Think endangered _species_ act. What do we protect?


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

OK so in plain English there is no true definition os what makes a species a species and not a "varient"









so how do we know if something is one thing or another?

like a swordtail - how is it not the same as a platty, but a "variation"???


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

How we know is consistent differences between the two kinds of animals. We also know by whether they are officially named by us (humans) as a species. It may have no evolutionary consistency with other decisions or may have no evolutionary basis at all.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

can you please explain further?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Some would say it's as simple as whether or not they can breed. 
Can't breed=different species. (it can get more complex but...)

Some say it's one or more "fixed" gene differences between two populations. For example; swordtails all have swords (amongst other things) and platys don't. Being able to breed means not so much.

The latter works better because it most likely represents what has happened evolutionarily.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

so there really is no true defenition then?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Just the artificial constructs of the names we put on them.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

so how can you know if you have a seperate species or a variation?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

depends who you talk to.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)




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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Exactly.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

:laugh: Just don't get into confined lakes and what happens with genes with same species. You'll really frustrate Innes then.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Just don't get into confined lakes and what happens with genes with same species. You'll really frustrate Innes then.


 please do


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

For some reason I do not visit this forum nearly enough. I love this post, too bad it's 3 months old









Does anyone still care to talk about this stuff?

:smile:


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

I'm still wanting to be confused


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

Innes said:


> I'm still wanting to be confused


 OK, well what do you want to be confused over then?


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

Innes said:


> hastatus said:
> 
> 
> > :laugh: Just don't get into confined lakes and what happens with genes with same species. You'll really frustrate Innes then.
> ...


 well I was hoping for whatever Frank was talking about, but I'm sure you most likely have another way, I'm not too botherd. but I need my head to get boggled


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Just don't get into confined lakes and what happens with genes with same species. You'll really frustrate Innes then.


 OK, so you want expansion on this?


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

Innes,

Your avatar makes me want to puke!

Sick bastard..............









J/K


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

B. Scott said:


> hastatus said:
> 
> 
> > :laugh: Just don't get into confined lakes and what happens with genes with same species. You'll really frustrate Innes then.
> ...










if possible, and sorry about my avatar, it is by request of thePACK


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

indeed its a very good avatar, though its been out awhile


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

I like yours also P45







X


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Here's a "primer"....

There's basically 5 things that can push evolution and a couple scenarios in which they can happen.

The five things:

Natural Selection
Sexual Selection
Mutation

Genetic Drift
Gene Flow

Put the first 3 together because they're relatively obvious. Natural Selection=environment favoring some individuals (specifically their genes) over others. Sexual Selection= same but it's the sexes doing the favoring. Mutation=complete change of a gene.

The last two are a little trickier, as are explanations of the scenarios. Digest this for now, I'll continue later... (boring bio stuff but when you see how it happens in cool fish it ALL changes your perspective! )


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

genetic drift? - what is that?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

First, gene flow.

All gene flow is is *migration* of some kinds of genes (say, 'green' color in a cichlid) either out of a population or into a different population (so, you'd lose some green color genes or gain some).

All five of these things fight against a population never changing it's genes (and if you never change genes you don't speciate/evolve). Note that nothing 'reacts' to situations by evolving, it just happens by chance or you go extinct. Sounds strange but makes sense when you think about how 99% of creatures that ever lived are now extinct.

Speaking of chance, that's what genetic drift is all about. It requires a *small population* where, *BY CHANCE*, some genes may disappear from the population (a tree falls on the few individuals with a certain gene and it's gone, party because of the small size of the population).

There's more details but that's the foundation. Look up "Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium" if you want to see more on this.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

Thanks acestro


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## tinyteeth (Mar 12, 2003)

so whats the project?


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

heres a handy link


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## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

who cares??!?!

it's a freakin species of fish that look almost identical.....why not indentify them as seperate and be happy?

it's like me bitching over my socks......I usually end up wearing one with a red stripe and the other without.....but I'm not holding scientific debates about it


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

lol crazyklown I have really enjoyed this thread, it might not matter to me whether species are seperate, or one and the same, but it is certainly interesting (and mind boggling) finding out about it


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## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

ehh if one had like fire breath or something that'd be cool

but slight differences......not as scientifically exciting.....at least not my version of scientifically exciting

oh well to each his own


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

lol fire breath


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## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

You have to admit that'd be awesome.

Or like Judazzz's carnivourus tetra.....that thing with fire breath could take down a dovii!


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

this thread has broken the 'Boring' barrier long ago, please dont stir it up and make people suffer the task of checking this forum to find what new posts are in it, only to find that the new posts are all on this one stupid thread


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## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

oh Goddamn party pooper.

I agree with Innes


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> this thread has broken the 'Boring' barrier long ago, please dont stir it up and make people suffer the task of checking this forum to find what new posts are in it, only to find that the new posts are all on this one stupid thread










dont be stupid, if you don't - like it don't open it


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

Why do I keep forgetting about this topic???









Well, if you want any more info on it then please ask, otherwise, I think Acestero has taken care of it quite nicely









Thanks,


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

I dont think P45 can take any more


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

If you dig anything bio, sooner or later that stuff will interest you. In all honesty it didn't even interest me in college until after I got my Bachelor's. I personally agree that the Jurupari aren't the most interesting. But for the African Lake cichlids this stuff gets very neat!


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

acestro said:


> If you dig anything bio, sooner or later that stuff will interest you. In all honesty it didn't even interest me in college until after I got my Bachelor's. I personally agree that the Jurupari aren't the most interesting. But for the African Lake cichlids this stuff gets very neat!


 Should look into the Cyprinodontiforms really gets interesting then.
Splitters really can get a permenent headache with these fish.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

true, and we actually can see those in our backyards!


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

Polypterus said:


> Splitters really can get a permenent headache with these fish.


 Yes, we can


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> B. Scott Posted on Nov 17 2003, 05:32 AM
> QUOTE (Polypterus @ Nov 13 2003, 08:20 PM)
> Splitters really can get a permenent headache with these fish.
> 
> *Yes, we can *


Finally, a full admission from a real incorrigible splitter.


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