# Are we (USA) still the good guys or hypercrite's?



## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Please dont turn this thread into BASH the people of the Good Old USA.
This thread is about the goverment, which runs this country.

I've been reading newspapers, watching TV, and just talking to people about what the US wants to do. Everywere I turn, everyone tells me that the US is doing things in the best hopes of helping the needy of the world. Sure, I am all for helping people when it is needed. But, it makes me wonder so much about, WHY? The US is of course trying to help countrys in need, and at the same time spread democracy. But you know what....

*The US goverment IMO is only doing this to hide their own faults. *

I hate the fact that just because Cuba did not follow the US example. That the US goverment has imposed trade embargo on Cube, just because they refuse to adopt our way of goverment. Is it now up, to the people of a country to pick the type of goverment they want?

Besides, our goverment tends to only help countrys, when they is a benefit for us. Do we hear about the beheadings and violence in Haiti, Philippines.

But most Americans dont care...

The goverment will countine to only help those, from which we can gain something back from. Heck, it's the american way.

I myself would prefer the goverment to help it's people first.


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## Avatar~God (Oct 21, 2004)

Our country needs to work on it self before we try to help others.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

Avatar~God said:


> Our country needs to work on it self before try to help others.
> [snapback]1074396[/snapback]​


fo sure


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## darby (Apr 28, 2005)

delta said:


> Avatar~God said:
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> > Our country needs to work on it self before try to help others.
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couldn't have said it better


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## mauls (Mar 25, 2004)

GOOD GUYS FOR EVER!


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## Gordeez (Sep 21, 2003)

I dont think we were ever the Good guys OR the bad guys.
Some people liked us, others didnt, i alwyas thought we were ''neatrual''


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## mauls (Mar 25, 2004)

this is my country and i support whatever they do! theres a good reason for everything, the media only brings out the worse in our gov.

PS. this thread is going to get ugly....... more politics


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

No disrespect intended, but you guys haven't been the "good guys" since world war II. The conduct of the Cold War and the political meddling in Latin America and whatever else was always a case of flexing political muscle within your "sphere of influence", not being international world heros. It's really nothing new that hasn't been going on for years and years, is taking over an Arab country really all that different than organizing a revolt against an elected government because they wanted to kick the Chiquita banana corporation out of the country?

Again, no disrespect intended, you guys have your own aims and goals from your foreign policy, but it isn't a case of wanting to be world benefactors


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## User (May 31, 2004)

mauls said:


> this is my country and i support whatever they do! theres a good reason for everything, the media only brings out the worse in our gov.
> 
> PS. this thread is going to get ugly....... more politics
> [snapback]1074443[/snapback]​


Jesus Christ I don't know what to say. That is indeed a worrisome post.


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## pyrokingbrand (Nov 30, 2004)

It's too bad that a large portion of the world has such a poor opinion of the U. S. The U.S. has committed acts which we are not proud(always in the news) of but we have also done many good things(rarely in the news). I think that some (not all) people in our government are ruled too much by the dollar then by the will of the american people. We the american people need to educate ourselves about our government and the actions that it takes around the globe, instead of sitting in constant ignorance which is easy to fall into. God bless this Beautiful country and what it stands for.


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## CTREDBELLY (Apr 8, 2005)

i am an American, and i have served in the armed forces for a breif time. and in all honesty i can look you in the eye and say with the lies and BS going on and the PERSONAL agenda our government has for their OWN family, i can say im no longer PROUD to be an american i sometimes almost feel ashamed.

but thats only cause our current gov. but not in the past


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

If you are ashamed to be an American...why not leave so you dont have to ashamed anymore.


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## CTREDBELLY (Apr 8, 2005)

maybe i phrased it wrong. im ashamed not of myself but of my gov. and their policies and personal cause. i choose to stay cause i know once the new gov. is in office in a few more years every thign SHOULD go back to normal.


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## Shadow_weaveR (May 23, 2005)

mauls said:


> this is my country and i support whatever they do! theres a good reason for everything, the media only brings out the worse in our gov.
> [snapback]1074443[/snapback]​


While the United States isnt perfect, They are not the bad guys, This being said, supporting your country is fine and you should, but supporting your country no mater what is dangerous, I'm not saying this would ever happen but if the United States Government started going south on us and started some kind of genocide against Arab americans if anouther big terrorist attack happens or something along those lines, then its time where you would have to stand up against your country's government and demand the responsible parties be removed, by force if necessary. Thats a duty everyone should all be expected to do if such events were to take place.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

elTwitcho said:


> No disrespect intended, but you guys haven't been the "good guys" since world war II.
> [snapback]1074445[/snapback]​


I beg to differ. Then again, dont I always









What country goes to war with another country, the stays to help rebuild it and bring stability to it?

What country donates millions of dollars to other countrys, only to get a "You could have donated more" slip in return? And upon that donating even more?

What country constantly sends aid to poverish country, whether it be in the form of food, education, or medical attention?

What country has constantly put their needs on hold for other countries only to be criticized in the end?

Tell me, what country has done all this AND more? Yet each time its "never enough"...

My country, The United States of America. Constantly has this country played neutral with countries...only to get back stabbed.

You guys want to say that the US is being hypocrites? Jeez.


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## lemmywinks (Jan 25, 2004)

Many people dont like us as a country becuase our government has done alot of things that they shouldnt have even bothered doing. But like others have said, most of the good stuff we do for other countries doenst even make news, but of course the bad stuff always makes the news. overall I think we are still a good country. I hope we (actually our government) will stop stickin our noses into other peoples business and worry about our own personall agenda. We have enough problems here and we should start paying more attention to those.

just my opinion.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

I can only talk for myself... I LOVE my country but I hate the current goverment. As you guys can see from my past post, I am very upset with the way the goverment has been going.

I think in some sitututions we are the bad guys. It is not fair that people in Cuba are made to suffer, simply because our goverment does not like their goverment. If another country imposed a trade embargo on another country, the US goverment would be crying foul in the UN. We are told as young childern that the communists are bad people. But is it not up to the people of a country to choose there type of goverment? So what if Cuba is a communist country, it dosent give us the right to impose a trade embargo.

God man, we are all different types of people. The US goverment dosent say anything to the Saudi Arabia goverment about there monarchy system. And the reason is, we get oil from that country. So it is not in the best action for the US to want to change the goverment in Saudi Arabia.


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## Shadow_weaveR (May 23, 2005)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> elTwitcho said:
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> > No disrespect intended, but you guys haven't been the "good guys" since world war II.
> ...


Bravo! very well said, could not agree with you more, and I'm Canadian, so you guys should know that people in other countries do see what you have done for other countries and the little thanks and criticism you recieve for it unfairly. You're country is appreciated.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> elTwitcho said:
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> > No disrespect intended, but you guys haven't been the "good guys" since world war II.
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What stability are you talking about? Since WWII, we have not been able to make any country more have more stability. We tryed that in the Korean War, and look the North and South are still at war. We tried that in Vietnam War and we left with our tails between our legs. We tried that in many Latin America countrys and failed. Heck, we even tried to help in the civil war in Cambodia and we failed the people there. And left them to die with the Pol Pot's bloody "Year Zero" ethnic cleansing campaign, which killed 2 million "undesirable" civilians. And in Iraq we havent been able to make that country any more stable then what it was when we first got there.

So please dont tell me you believe what the media is feeding the masses.

The goverment should worry about it's people first! Let the rest of the world deal with their own problems.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> elTwitcho said:
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> > No disrespect intended, but you guys haven't been the "good guys" since world war II.
> ...


















Although I agree with you whole-heartedly, my faith is in no country. ALL are corrupt to some degree. ALL are imperfect, we are all fallen creatures.
I choose to live vertically rather than horozontally, because there is nothing new under the sun. Life without God is MADDENING, meaningless, without purpose... etc, etc..
I am by no means perfect, but my God is!


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> elTwitcho said:
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Every western nation in the world. There is alot of profit to be made during "rebuilding" and the US is not the only country to take advantage of that opportunity.



Ms_Nattereri said:


> What country donates millions of dollars to other countrys, only to get a "You could have donated more" slip in return? And upon that donating even more?
> [snapback]1074504[/snapback]​


Every western nation in the world yet again. Canada and Britain and France and Spain and Japan and on and on and on all donate money to empoverished countries and all criticize each other when contributions are not up to par. This is not a distinctively american experience, this is something that myserious "rest of the world" also goes through.

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp



Ms_Nattereri said:


> What country constantly sends aid to poverish country, whether it be in the form of food, education, or medical attention?
> [snapback]1074504[/snapback]​


What country doesn't?



Ms_Nattereri said:


> What country has constantly put their needs on hold for other countries only to be criticized in the end?
> [snapback]1074504[/snapback]​


I don't know either, but we are talking about the US here and if we stay within the scope of that conversation, certainly not you guys. When you shot up your own boat and blamed it on the vietnamese so you could get involved in a civil war, it was to play out your own conflict with the soviets, not to help the vietnamese. When you set up a "school of the americas" to train terrorists to kill and rape it wasn't a case of putting your needs on hold. When you arm factions within Africa to pit them against the Soviet backed factions, it isn't putting your needs on hold, it is overriding the needs of that individual country to play out your own conflict that has nothing to do with them.



Ms_Nattereri said:


> Constantly has this country played neutral with countries...only to get back stabbed.
> [snapback]1074504[/snapback]​


Arbitrary labelling of countries as being part of an international "axis of evil" is playing nuetral? Declaring that everyone in the world is either "with us or against us" is playing nuetral now?

Please...


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## rbp75 (May 2, 2004)

I think that most of the world would have a better opinion of the U.S if it were not for the hatred the mainstream media has for the political right. (not trying to make this a political post) When all you here about the U.S is the negative it only natural that you develop a bad opinion. The media never tells about the good we do, its an uphill battle. If it were not for the U.S putting their nose in other peoples affairs the world would be a much worce place, you can say the world is no safer now before the war with the taliban and iraq, but I would disagree. Not to mention our wars in the past and what ms.nattereri said which doesnt even begin to describe all the good the U.S has done to aid other countries. And as for saying the U.S needs to take care of its own problems first before taking care of others, I would say that the U.S would not be in Iraq if it were not in the best intrest of the U.S and the world.


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## Shadow_weaveR (May 23, 2005)

elTwitcho said:


> Ms_Nattereri said:
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All of those are valid points, but I none of those countries have given the amount of aide to poor and under developed countries then the United States.


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Yes but as a percentage of GDP it is the lowest among the 22 industrialized nations listed in my link


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

sadboy1981 said:


> Ms_Nattereri said:
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Uhhh JAPAN.

Not to mention how we let Mexico send all their "migrants" over here and they gather $$ then take it back to Mexico--helping their govt.

What about all the help we sent to Tsunami torn countries? That doesnt help with stability?

Wow man...


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

rbp75 said:


> I think that most of the world would have a better opinion of the U.S if it were not for the hatred the mainstream media has for the political right. (not trying to make this a political post) When all you here about the U.S is the negative it only natural that you develop a bad opinion. The media never tells about the good we do, its an uphill battle. If it were not for the U.S putting their nose in other peoples affairs the world would be a much worce place, you can say the world is no safer now before the war with the taliban and iraq, but I would disagree. Not to mention our wars in the past and what ms.nattereri said which doesnt even begin to describe all the good the U.S has done to aid other countries. And as for saying the U.S needs to take care of its own problems first before taking care of others, I would say that the U.S would not be in Iraq if it were not in the best intrest of the U.S and the world.
> [snapback]1074538[/snapback]​


It's like my dad always tells me, "You good deeds go unnotice, but your bad deeds come into light".

What does going to war with other countrys help us here in the US. We have problems of our own, but the goverment does not deal with them. The cost of the war with Iraq could have helped with our socal security issues or with our childern not having food or better classes. There are countless things the goverment could do to help it people.

Besides is it not the reasonablity of a goverment to help it's people first?


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Fido said:


> sadboy1981 said:
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Last I checked Japan was part of WWII or did you not know that??

Please dont talk to me about Mexico and the rest of latin America coming here illegaly. The goverment here allows the employors to hire them. Why? Because it is cheap. The answer to this problem is a simple fix. Once we stop hiring them, they will stop coming here. But so long as the American people want everything cheap, then those employors will still hire them.

Not so long ago, those jobs were done by Americans. But do you think Americans would work for $6.75 on the hour. I think not! Employors would have to pay more, and in return the cost would go up. But the american people dont want that.

So dont give me none of this BS about illegals.

Edit: The Tsunami effort has been a world effort. And when I was talking about stability, I was implying about the US going to War to bring stability.


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## rbp75 (May 2, 2004)

"""""What does going to war with other countrys help us here in the US. We have problems of our own, but the goverment does not deal with them. The cost of the war with Iraq could have helped with our socal security issues or with our childern not having food or better classes. There are countless things the goverment could do to help it people.

Besides is it not the reasonablity of a goverment to help it's people first?""""
My quote button doesnt seem to be working. anyway...

It helps us because it takes out people like sadam who would at the first opportunity to do what was done to us on 9/11 and for people who dont know or just dont believe it sadam had ties with the taliban. If the U.S were to go back into time before 9/11 and go to war with the taliban people would have gone crazy with hatred toward us, but we would have stoped a major world changing event. 
Nothing is worse for a country than a major attack on its civilians. Not to mention there are other major threats in the middle east and having Iraq as an ally is a great advantage.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

rbp75 said:


> """""What does going to war with other countrys help us here in the US. We have problems of our own, but the goverment does not deal with them. The cost of the war with Iraq could have helped with our socal security issues or with our childern not having food or better classes. There are countless things the goverment could do to help it people.
> 
> Besides is it not the reasonablity of a goverment to help it's people first?""""
> My quote button doesnt seem to be working. anyway...
> ...


That still dosent help us in anyway. We have attacked other countries and killed thousands of civilians. And if you dont believe me, then what does bombing a country into submission do. Yes, 911 was a awful day in our history but we as a people can not live our lives in fear. We have thousands of nukes pointing towards other countries. You should not worrie about other people trying to kill us. I guess a lot of us have played into the whole terror idea. Like I said, going to war with Iraq it pointless and even if they posed a threat, we posed a GREATER threat to them.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

sadboy1981 said:


> Ms_Nattereri said:
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http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/

Yeah, after reading that I can really see were not stabilizing at all, in fact were just causing mere chaos...







Yeah right. That link has things the media refuses to even acknowledge. In fact Iraqis over in Iraq had our side and defended us helping them til they saw OUR OWN media bashing us for being there. Ask anyone thats been over there thats in the military. They'll tell you that now, Iraqis look down upon them because of our media.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> sadboy1981 said:
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You are using a goverment web site to prove your point? Just to let you know, I have 2 family members who came back from Iraq, who told me things are a mess. I also have 1 friend who is over there, and he is having mental problems over how bad things are.

Here are a few links for you.

Iraq may go into civil war

Civilian death between near 100000

CIA says Iraq will fall into civil war.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

sadboy1981 said:


> You are using a goverment web site to prove your point? Just to let you know, I have 2 family members who came back from Iraq, who told me things are a mess. I also have 1 friend who is over there, and he is having mental problems over how bad things are.
> 
> Here are a few links for you.
> 
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She is using a government website to prove her point, but yet you're using a government agency statement to try to discredit her point?


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

User said:


> sadboy1981 said:
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> > You are using a goverment web site to prove your point? Just to let you know, I have 2 family members who came back from Iraq, who told me things are a mess. I also have 1 friend who is over there, and he is having mental problems over how bad things are.
> ...


Only one of my sources was from a agency
But I know what you are saying


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

elTwitcho said:


> No disrespect intended, but you guys haven't been the "good guys" since world war II. The conduct of the Cold War and the political meddling in Latin America and whatever else was always a case of flexing political muscle within your "sphere of influence", not being international world heros. It's really nothing new that hasn't been going on for years and years, is taking over an Arab country really all that different than organizing a revolt against an elected government because they wanted to kick the Chiquita banana corporation out of the country?
> 
> Again, no disrespect intended, you guys have your own aims and goals from your foreign policy, but it isn't a case of wanting to be world benefactors
> 
> ...


What's this "You guys" sh*t?


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Piranha_man said:


> elTwitcho said:
> 
> 
> > No disrespect intended, but you guys haven't been the "good guys" since world war II. The conduct of the Cold War and the political meddling in Latin America and whatever else was always a case of flexing political muscle within your "sphere of influence", not being international world heros. It's really nothing new that hasn't been going on for years and years, is taking over an Arab country really all that different than organizing a revolt against an elected government because they wanted to kick the Chiquita banana corporation out of the country?
> ...


I think he was referring to our Goverment...


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> elTwitcho said:
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> > No disrespect intended, but you guys haven't been the "good guys" since world war II.
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Ms Nattereri, I love the way you have put it.
As a US Army Veteran and now civilian citizen, I am proud to be an American.
And honestly, if you don't like the US, don't ask us for help, and if you are an American and don't like it, please leave. No machine guns, brick walls or barbed wire holding YOU here.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

CTREDBELLY said:


> i am an American, and i have served in the armed forces for a breif time. and in all honesty i can look you in the eye and say with the lies and BS going on and the PERSONAL agenda our government has for their OWN family, i can say im no longer PROUD to be an american i sometimes almost feel ashamed.
> 
> but thats only cause our current gov. but not in the past
> [snapback]1074471[/snapback]​





Piranha_man said:


> Ms Nattereri, I love the way you have put it.
> As a US Army Veteran and now civilian citizen, I am proud to be an American.
> And honestly, if you don't like the US, don't ask us for help, and if you are an American and don't like it, please leave. No machine guns, brick walls or barbed wire holding YOU here.
> [snapback]1074658[/snapback]​


Both guys served, yet two different impressions. Much like the links provided.










Terribly wrong; something is.


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Piranha_man said:


> elTwitcho said:
> 
> 
> > No disrespect intended, but you guys haven't been the "good guys" since world war II. The conduct of the Cold War and the political meddling in Latin America and whatever else was always a case of flexing political muscle within your "sphere of influence", not being international world heros. It's really nothing new that hasn't been going on for years and years, is taking over an Arab country really all that different than organizing a revolt against an elected government because they wanted to kick the Chiquita banana corporation out of the country?
> ...


Shall I re-direct you to looking at the thread title at the top of your screen?


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Piranha_man said:


> Ms Nattereri, I love the way you have put it.
> As a US Army Veteran and now civilian citizen, I am proud to be an American.
> And honestly, if you don't like the US, don't ask us for help, *and if you are an American and don't like it, please leave.* No machine guns, brick walls or barbed wire holding YOU here.
> [snapback]1074658[/snapback]​


What is that supposed to mean? So, when ever someone says something bad about our goverment then they should be cast out? I think NOT. One does not have to like the goverment in oder to be an American. It is one thing to love your country and another to dislike or hate the goverment. They are not the same thing. I am just as much an American as anyone else. God it is so sad that people can not say one bad thing about the goverment, without being told to love it or leave it. Last I checked I had the freedom of speech, which some of my family members dead for in WWII.


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

sadboy1981 said:


> Fido said:
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What BS? YOu mean the truth? That we contribute to Mexico's economy--while hurting ours? Oh and BTW, many employers pay less than 6.75 an hour. It seems like you dont like our government fighting terror but on the other side you approve of the government letting the illegals through the boarder. Whos the hypocrit now?


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Fido said:


> sadboy1981 said:
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Hold on a sec here. Did I ever say I approve of the goverment allowing illegals to come into this. I am just pointing to the truth that while the right bitchs about illegals, the goverment allows it to happen. The goverment turns a blind eye on employors who hire illegals as a work force. The goverment could stop it but it would rise the cost of products, and God knows that Americans dont want to have to pay more for anything. If employors paid the American people $10 to $15 like we do our checkers at the market, then Americans would do the job. But those employors who pray on cheap labor, lobby the goverment to turn a blind eye. So dont blame one side of the group without going after the other side.

I dont like the fact that WE have issues of our own here at home, and the goverment would rather spend billions on fighting some stuiped war.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

im all for pulling back our influence in the world. Lets take back our support from the latin countries, leave the middle east, asia. Its a mistake to donate the majority of the UN's funds, donate to the tsunami relieft, billions for africa, rebuilding japan/germany, and basically providing the muscle for the whole world since we are the only world power. Lets simply be a neutral country and the only contract we have with others is trading. Let the rest of the world fight corruption, aggression, poverty, and communism. Lets see how everybody does. Hell, americans may all be millionaires. We'll have 0 unemployment, deficit, etc. We'll invest all our money to our own people. We'll also have universal healthcare everybody complains about. If canada gets attacked....who cares! Its not our problem...they'll have to build an army now. France gets invaded by the canary islands and is overtaken? Who cares? Its not our problem. Africa in an AIDs epidemic? Hey, as long as we aren't allowing any immigration from there....its their problem. South korea attacked? Oh well...let japan take care of it. Palestinians getting rocked by the isralies?? Too bad for the arabs b/c we wont be there to hold sharon back. Iraqis want to westerners to leave? Sure, have your oil....but it might be burning b/c your own people are setting the fires and killing your own leaders. We wont stop any civil war b/c you should be able to handle it. We'll free saddam and free all the bathists...have fun. All the while, i'll be sitting in my mansion, watching HD tv, sippin crystal, counting my millions.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

sadboy1981 said:


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I know, but the citizens and the government are 2 different things.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

sadboy1981 said:


> Piranha_man said:
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> > Ms Nattereri, I love the way you have put it.
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I'll tell you what it's supposed to mean.
I'm not talking about somebody that has "Something" bad about our government.
I'm refering to the dumbshits that do nothing but complain about everything our government does... assholes that have no appreciation for the good things they get to enjoy, etc.
BOTTOM LINE:
If you have NO complaints, you're not paying attention.
If ALL you have is complaints, consider getting the f*ck out.


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## PuffPiff (May 23, 2005)

we do pay for 22% of the UN's yearly funding


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## we have sound (Apr 27, 2005)

I will give you a view from the other side of the atlantic, at least, the one I hear voiced most over here. In the UK, amongst the people, there is a huge amount on Anti-American feeling. And I know, I'm hardly the most knowlagable person about politics, about the war, about your countyry at all, but I will say this. You guys (there we go again) are held in very low regard. Due to the actions of your government, you are not liked at all. Despite the views of our Prime Minister, a lot of people I have spoken to do not want the close links to America we have at the moment. Lot's of people belieive, rightly or wrongly, that your government is hypocritical, money grabbing, and does not do enough with things such as pollution, world debt, poverty etc. One thing I keep hear being quoted is that for the cost of the iraq war the poverty in Africa could have been stamped out for 10 years, with everyone being fed and given water. If you can do that to help world poverty, but chose instead to go to war which brings you unpopularity in the media, and among other countries, killing up to a hundred thousand civillians, I don't see how your government can hope to be liked.

CT


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## PuffPiff (May 23, 2005)

how come we have to fix everything anyway, we have so many living in poverty over here. why not do something about that?


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## Pilsnah (Mar 19, 2005)

I read all the before posts and they are picturing a world of difference.

For one, America is part of the World. For that reason it has to maintain ties with the rest of the world. Reason, they have to trade, import and export. About the Middle-East, although everyone tries to deny it, it is of huge importance to the US to stabilize the oilmarket and secure a free flow of it. Reason, the US has the highest energy demand per person of the entire world. While it is been made clear the US also has a economy, what has not been made clear is that along with that comes unemployment and the economic cycle, i.e. Depreciating and Appreciating economies. The US had a big problem before the war in Iraq, in a high unemployment rate and a already stagnating economy. They solved two problems in one. They went to war with Iraq, thereby securing the 'black gold' and boosting there economy. The US nowadays runs a war-economy based on deficit spending (Financed largely by Japan[who needs to stay competitive economically] and China) which benefits 2 parties. The rich, by means of tax-cuts and the multinationals, who always earn big in war time on government contracts.

Result of it all:

A bigger influence by multinationals on the government as they need each other
The rich being happy
The masses being screwed over.

Problem:

The political system, it's too much about the $ and influence. It's only about how to get it or keep it. You get it by playing along, i.e. not being to critical. Look at the media, FOX is a perfect example. Look at congress, ever heard something original lately from either side?

Conclusion:

What is been played out at the moment is perfectly logical. Bush has warm ties to oil- and weaponscompanies. So what he is doing is only logical. He safeguards his own interests and applies the rethoric which suits those interests. He is installing FEAR (through his 'friends' see above) into the average citizen and thereby creating room for his policies. What is not helping him, like Kyoto, the UN, or whoever, belongs to the 'other side.' You have to be wandering how this man rose to power? It almost sounds like Star Wars rhetoric. It is imminent to see that hereby he alienates a lot of countries and peoples and not all the $$$ in the world can change that. He and therefore the government are plotting a ramcourse time and time again, so they must not be surprised and you must not be surprised if the sh*t is hurdled back in bucketloads.

To come to a positive ending, America is a nation known to be flexible and fast to bounce back. IMO things will change for the good of the majority (as how a Democracy should work) and America will return to a more stabilizing role within the world spectrum.

Because like it or not, America can't do without the world and the world can't do without America.


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## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

It isn't about good guys / bad guys, its about surviving as a nation/civilization. Look at the past, every civilization that was number 1 isn't number 1 anymore. We're just trying to stay on top, powerful, survive, go on, etc. Think about it this way, would you want to be a one hit wonder or a great band that has plenty of great albums? We want to last.

Aztec, Mayan, Greek, Roman, etc.

We help out other countries in hope they will help out us in the future.


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## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> elTwitcho said:
> 
> 
> > No disrespect intended, but you guys haven't been the "good guys" since world war II.
> ...


Thank you Ms Natt. Best answer so far. (I'm gonna say it again and again, when on top, everyone hates/criticizes you. Not gonna say they don't do anything. )

Yep, there's my "America is better than everyone" view. :sarcasm:

After reading some of the posts responded to Ms. Natts post saying "we tried North/South Korea. We did try, but we can't do everything. Their own country/people/government must want change to and must want to accept it. If they don't its useless, and its also useless to just blame America. We tried, but we cannot do it all. The country must also want to help.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

I'm sure the deep underlying ideological basis of what the US does is pure and good, but ideology and reality don't go hand in hand, and reality is not nearly as beautiful as the ideology.
I have nothing against the US as a country, nor hold I any grudge against the American people, but what I see is done is the name of freedom and democracy makes me cringe - esepcially the latest government is a farce (one that has LOTS of blood on its hands), but they were not the only ones with double agenda's: saying A, but doing B. But Bush & Co are by far the most damaging government the US had in decades, for its image, its own people and the rest of the world.

When I hear Bush talk about freedom and democracy, and how all oppressed can ask for help, it's all just empty phrases: countries like China (massive human rights violations), Birma (military junta oppressing anyone thinking differently), half the African continent (genocides, civil strife), former Russian republics - many of them desperately need help, but are ignored, or even stabbed in the back.
Take Uzbekistan: perhaps as many as 500 civilian protestors were murdered, many executed, a while ago by troops of the dictatorial government, but the US remained quiet. Reason: the US has a military basis in Uzbekistan that is needed for the campaign in Afghanistan - if that happened in a country without US interest, Washington would scream bloody murder... Gitmo, the entire "war against terrorism detention system" and the own interpretation of human rights and the Geneva Convention are another key examples of saying A, doing B.
And then they expect others to obey or do the right thing?

My main problem with the US is that is does and says things without thinking about the implications - Iraq's a mess, a big mess, a mess that would never get out of hand as painfully as it has with proper planning. Afghanistan isn't much better off. Yes, it's work in progress, but until then, the people pay the price, and god knows what might arise out of that as far as radical movements goes.

Again, I honestly believe that the deep underlying intentions are good (and by that I don't mean the Neo-Conservative agenda: they are one of the roots of evil in this world, IMHO.), but unfortunately, it hasn't improved much - quite on the contrary.
Hopefully, things will get better eventually, but that still has to be seen...

btw: yes, the US does a lot on fighting hunger and poverty, helping disaster victims etc. etc. But so does *every other* First World country - it doesn't make you special, nor does it make any other Western nation special. It's basically our moral obligation, as the poverty in the Third World is a direct result of the actions of the First World in the past.
But unlike the US, other Western countries don't start using humanitarian aid as a defense when the other side of foreign policy is under attack - the two things are completely unrelated. You can't 'even out' a bloody war with humanitarian aid (it's not that you can say: "Hey, we increase our humanitarian aid budget with 10%, so we can invade this or that country").


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## PuffPiff (May 23, 2005)

i love long, hatefilled threads about politics


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

we have sound said:


> I will give you a view from the other side of the atlantic, at least, the one I hear voiced most over here. In the UK, amongst the people, there is a huge amount on Anti-American feeling. And I know, I'm hardly the most knowlagable person about politics, about the war, about your countyry at all, but I will say this. You guys (there we go again) are held in very low regard. Due to the actions of your government, you are not liked at all. Despite the views of our Prime Minister, a lot of people I have spoken to do not want the close links to America we have at the moment. Lot's of people belieive, rightly or wrongly, that your government is hypocritical, money grabbing, and does not do enough with things such as pollution, world debt, poverty etc. One thing I keep hear being quoted is that for the cost of the iraq war the poverty in Africa could have been stamped out for 10 years, with everyone being fed and given water. If you can do that to help world poverty, but chose instead to go to war which brings you unpopularity in the media, and among other countries, killing up to a hundred thousand civillians, I don't see how your government can hope to be liked.
> 
> CT
> [snapback]1074981[/snapback]​


While I admire your respectful approach (Tastefully delivered point of view) I must ask you this:
What in hell does YOUR country do for the rest of the world?
Oh... wait, I know the answer to this one---------"Nada."
The US contributes several times more than the rest of the world's countries combined.
Uh..........._alrighty?_

(Personally, I'd like to see the United States quit helping out all the ungrateful pieces of crap and really become the rich-assed empire we could be- what the hell, we're hated anyway, why not give y'all a real reason to hate us?)


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## Pilsnah (Mar 19, 2005)

Piranha_man said:


> While I admire your respectful approach (Tastefully delivered point of view) I must ask you this:
> What in hell does YOUR country do for the rest of the world?
> Oh... wait, I know the answer to this one---------"Nada."
> The US contributes several times more than the rest of the world's countries combined.
> ...


You are defining 'policy in effect.' If you're not with us. your...

Let you tell me this, America cannot be on its own. The Economy would crumble and no way in hell there would be a 'RICH ASS EMPIRE,' because fact of the matter is, you're broke! Ever heard of deflation of the currency, were taught about bourse crisises. It will happen and then you're fingered.

Your spending cry is ridiculous, if you would have read the thread you would have known by now. Let me also remind you that the US has a big contribution debt with the UN.

Leading nations will one day disintegrate, your country has tried once before and it can happen again.

How your fish by the way :rasp:


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## PuffPiff (May 23, 2005)

oh yeah and you're country is better right?


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

we have sound said:


> Lot's of people belieive, rightly or wrongly, that your government is hypocritical, money grabbing, and does not do enough with things such as pollution, world debt, poverty etc. One thing I keep hear being quoted is that for the cost of the iraq war the poverty in Africa could have been stamped out for 10 years, with everyone being fed and given water. If you can do that to help world poverty, but chose instead to go to war which brings you unpopularity in the media, and among other countries, killing up to a hundred thousand civillians, I don't see how your government can hope to be liked.
> 
> CT
> [snapback]1074981[/snapback]​


*Pollution:*

We are trying to make the switch between gas powered vehicles and hybrid/electronic powered vehicles. Switch can only move so fast considering not everyone here has the dough to fork out to buy a hybrid.

Aerosol cans are another thing we have cut back on once discovered they depeat the ozone. We've even modify the aerosol cans we do use today to contain no CFC's which depleat the ozone.

1990 Clean Air Act

In California ALONE:
All hybrid cars electric powered vehicles have access to the carpool lane if theres only one person. (Carpools consist of 2-3+ people in the car)

Hybrids/Electric cars get free parking in metered areas in San Francisco.

We have hardest smog check to pass in America.

Cutting emissions:

Amount of emission reduction mandated for cars and light trucks by regulations adopted by the California Air Resources Board:

2009 - 1.3%
2010 - 4.4%
2011 - 14.0%
2012 - 24.9%
2013 - 26.7%
2014 - 28.5%
2015 - 31.2%
2016+ - 33.9%

Source: California Air Resources Board

(So yeah, were not doing anything about pollution)

*World Debt:*

Whoa, wait a minute, why should we take care of world debt, if your country got itself into debt, you should be the ones responsible to taking it out. The US is in its OWN debt and you dont see us asking people for donations to get us out. Yet what do we get in return of being in debt? People asking us to cut a bigger check for donations.

*Poverty:*

To stamp out something most recent December 26, 2004...Tsunami relief? We gave *TWO* checks for...

The numerous and countless organizations here in a America that constantly show up on the TV asking people to donate money for poverish countries. Christian Children's Fund is a huge one here in America.

Specifically the company I work for (Accor) even set up an employee donation fund last year that benefited not only our own country but the UN World Food Program. And a lot of other companies donate their money to such organizations.

*Africa 10 year Plan:*

So America gets yelled at when we "stick our nose" in other peoples business, yet the same people cry out saying we dont do enough to help other peoples countries. Why is is you want the US to take care of Africa? Why cant other countries come together and help them? Because they/you too are most concerned about your own country. The money we use for war, is for OUR protection, not to be used for some other country to "stamp out there poverty." Im sorry to be so harsh, but there are times when the US just needs to think about itself and taking care of its needs.


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## PuffPiff (May 23, 2005)

tell em miss natt


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Pilsnah said:


> Piranha_man said:
> 
> 
> > While I admire your respectful approach (Tastefully delivered point of view) I must ask you this:
> ...


Well lets turn the tables, what economy can go without the US buying power? I will agree the US needs other country's in order to maintain its economy, but just as we need them, they need us. US is a huge spender when it comes to importing, thats one check I dont think a country would want to refuse.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

PuffPiff said:


> oh yeah and you're country is better right?
> [snapback]1075132[/snapback]​


That's one of the differences between many Americans and the rest: you always need to (let) know or confirm that you're better ("We can kick your ass", "We are the richest", "We are the best", "We gave more for the Tsumani victims", "What the hell did your country to help?", blah fuckidy blah...







) - who gives a flying f*ck who's better (apart from some [many?] of you)???
Better is a mutally beneficial cooperation, and that's where the short-comings start.

Do a search and compare the times an American stuck a feather up his own patriottic arse, and how often a non-American did that. You'd be amazed...
And why? Inferiority complex? Auto-selfdefence mechanism against members from other countries who (dare to) criticize the US? Being unable to intelligently counter criticism? I wonder...


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

Judazzz said:


> stuck a feather up his own patriottic arse[snapback]1075162[/snapback]​












Hey Judazzz how long has it been since one of Americans on here reminded you that if it wasn't for them you'd be speaking German now ?


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Jewelz said:


> Judazzz said:
> 
> 
> > stuck a feather up his own patriottic arse[snapback]1075162[/snapback]​
> ...


Now that I think of it, it must have been quite a while ago by now: dankeschon for reminding me









Doesn't matter anyways. I'm half German, half Dutch: prepared for every situation...


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

By most of these post, I can tell that many of my country men still dont see the problem that some of us see. Our economy is a weak economy that depends on Third World labor to produce our products. Our dollor is weak when compared to other First World countrys. Our way of life is an expensie one compared to other First World Countrys. Yes, the US has and is doing some good for other countrys but at what cost?

Dont you people see that the goverment is not helping it's own people? 
That is my problem with this goverment, that it does not care about it's OWN. Yet, many of us are qucik to say, "It's there own fault they dont have jobs, live on the streets, To hell with those welfare programs". BUt should'nt this goverment first fix there own problems before trying to help another country?

And if we were so for freedom, why not allow Cuba to have a free trade as they wish? When I spoke of the goverment being a bunch of hypercrites, I was reffering to the trade block on Cuba. It is not RIGHT that we (goverment) have not allowed Cuba to do what they will, simply because they have a different goverment.

And this is directed towards anyone who says do someting about it. I joined many groups to spread the truth, and I have tried to get other partys into office. Although, most of the time only the two main partys win. But I am trying to do something about it. Because I love my country.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

PuffPiff said:


> tell em miss natt
> [snapback]1075142[/snapback]​


Why dont you try and say something for yourself, instead of riding on someone else post? Speak for yourself.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

Mexico's economy is getting MUCH better... as well as the president using american dollars as toiletpaper...


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

sadboy1981 said:


> And this is directed towards anyone who says do someting about it. I joined many groups to spread the truth, and I have tried to get other partys into office. Although, most of the time only the two main partys win. But I am trying to do something about it. Because I love my country.
> [snapback]1075185[/snapback]​


Indeed, a third party like the Libertarians need to emerge because right now we have a house of representative, a senate and the white house with the Republicans being in charge and all I see is a bunch of liberalism coming from our government. When is Bush going to learn to use his Veto pen and do something about the spending bills ? Or does he just want to be a Democrat holding a bible ? What hapenned to the days when GOP stood for small, fiscally-responsible government and less spending ? Oh, wait maybe Hillary will get elected in 2008 and pursue an agenda of universal health care and additional gun control. The ridiculous war on drugs needs to stop. Social programs like welfare need to stop. Affirmative action is nothing but state-sponsored racism. We need a legit third party because Democrats and Republicans are starting to look like two sides of the same coin more and more each day.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Jewelz said:


> Indeed, a third party like the Libertarians need to emerge because right now we have a house of representative, a senate and the white house with the Republicans being in charge and all I see is a bunch of liberalism coming from our government. When is Bush going to learn to use his Veto pen and do something about the spending bills ? Or does he just want to be a Democrat holding a bible ? What hapenned to the days when GOP stood for small, fiscally-responsible government and less spending ? Oh, wait maybe Hillary will get elected in 2008 and pursue an agenda of universal health care and additional gun control. The ridiculous war on drugs needs to stop. Social programs like welfare need to stop. Affirmative action is nothing but state-sponsored racism. We need a legit third party because Democrats and Republicans are starting to look like two sides of the same coin more and more each day.
> [snapback]1075213[/snapback]​


Very true








The problem is the masses believe what ever they are fed. They believe is so blindly, that they can't see the truth. We dont need to do hand me outs, if the goverment help it's people then there would be no problem. So sad we have billions for WAR and not enough money to stop poverty in our own country.


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## we have sound (Apr 27, 2005)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> we have sound said:
> 
> 
> > Lot's of people belieive, rightly or wrongly, that your government is hypocritical, money grabbing, and does not do enough with things such as pollution, world debt, poverty etc. One thing I keep hear being quoted is that for the cost of the iraq war the poverty in Africa could have been stamped out for 10 years, with everyone being fed and given water. If you can do that to help world poverty, but chose instead to go to war which brings you unpopularity in the media, and among other countries, killing up to a hundred thousand civillians, I don't see how your government can hope to be liked.
> ...


I can understand that, but like it or not, not many other people do, and the fact of the matter is that the anti-American feeling still stands. I never said anywhere that that was my point of view, although I will freely admit that mine is pretty similar. Ranting and raving about how your country _is_ adressing all those problems will do nothing, because the mistakes your government has _already_ made have already set the reputation of your country that people over here hear, and believe.

CT


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## Gordeez (Sep 21, 2003)

diddye said:


> im all for pulling back our influence in the world. Lets take back our support from the latin countries, leave the middle east, asia. Its a mistake to donate the majority of the UN's funds, donate to the tsunami relieft, billions for africa, rebuilding japan/germany, and basically providing the muscle for the whole world since we are the only world power. Lets simply be a neutral country and the only contract we have with others is trading. Let the rest of the world fight corruption, aggression, poverty, and communism. Lets see how everybody does. Hell, americans may all be millionaires. We'll have 0 unemployment, deficit, etc. We'll invest all our money to our own people. We'll also have universal healthcare everybody complains about. If canada gets attacked....who cares! Its not our problem...they'll have to build an army now. France gets invaded by the canary islands and is overtaken? Who cares? Its not our problem. Africa in an AIDs epidemic? Hey, as long as we aren't allowing any immigration from there....its their problem. South korea attacked? Oh well...let japan take care of it. Palestinians getting rocked by the isralies?? Too bad for the arabs b/c we wont be there to hold sharon back. Iraqis want to westerners to leave? Sure, have your oil....but it might be burning b/c your own people are setting the fires and killing your own leaders. We wont stop any civil war b/c you should be able to handle it. We'll free saddam and free all the bathists...have fun. All the while, i'll be sitting in my mansion, watching HD tv, sippin crystal, counting my millions.
> [snapback]1074768[/snapback]​


:nod: With most of that post, I can agree.
Honestly, thats the way I feel.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

Jewelz said:


> sadboy1981 said:
> 
> 
> > And this is directed towards anyone who says do someting about it. I joined many groups to spread the truth, and I have tried to get other partys into office. Although, most of the time only the two main partys win. But I am trying to do something about it. Because I love my country.
> ...


I must say, I totally agree with that...


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

we have sound said:


> Ms_Nattereri said:
> 
> 
> > we have sound said:
> ...


The point of my post was to show your people and people around the world who think like them (about the issues you raised) need to read up on things before making generalizations that arent true. Thats it. It was no "My country is better than yours"...I wouldnt expect other countries to do as much as we, simply because of their size/population/economic stance. What I do expect is for countries to at least give us some respect in regard to the sense that we, as Americans, are trying. As you could see with our last election, our country is almost evenly divided right now on a lot of issues. To judge our country based upon our government soley is wrong. Just like Im sure you wouldnt want to be judge based upon your Prime Minister.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

sadboy1981 said:


> By most of these post, I can tell that many of my country men still dont see the problem that some of us see. Our economy is a weak economy that depends on Third World labor to produce our products. Our dollor is weak when compared to other First World countrys. Our way of life is an expensie one compared to other First World Countrys. Yes, the US has and is doing some good for other countrys but at what cost?
> 
> Dont you people see that the goverment is not helping it's own people?
> That is my problem with this goverment, that it does not care about it's OWN. Yet, many of us are qucik to say, "It's there own fault they dont have jobs, live on the streets, To hell with those welfare programs". BUt should'nt this goverment first fix there own problems before trying to help another country?
> ...


Our gov't/welfare programs are designed to help people pick themselves up let them determine their own future. Its not here for handouts. Why reward the lazy? If those people in poverty dont want to help themselves, why should we? The majority of homeless people dont even want to work when offered. Its one of the few places(land of dreams) where you can actually be what you work towards. It may be easier or harder for some, but those who try hard enough can make it work.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> Mexico's economy is getting MUCH better... as well as the president using american dollars as toiletpaper...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then why are their own people fleeing their homes in search for jobs?


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

diddye said:


> Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:
> 
> 
> > Mexico's economy is getting MUCH better... as well as the president using american dollars as toiletpaper...
> ...


I am talking about the HIGHER UPS...


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> diddye said:
> 
> 
> > Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:
> ...


Higher ups? So you're saying the people who are already rich are getting richer? (im going to assume you're being sarcastic)


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

diddye said:


> sadboy1981 said:
> 
> 
> > By most of these post, I can tell that many of my country men still dont see the problem that some of us see. Our economy is a weak economy that depends on Third World labor to produce our products. Our dollor is weak when compared to other First World countrys. Our way of life is an expensie one compared to other First World Countrys. Yes, the US has and is doing some good for other countrys but at what cost?
> ...


Do you really think $500 is enough money for a family of three going through hard times? Or do you think a person could real live on min. wage? It not.... I am not for letting these people live on a free ride. But it is a sad state of mind, that the goverment would rather spend billions on war, when that money could have been used here in our home to fix many of the problems we have.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

diddye said:


> Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:
> 
> 
> > Mexico's economy is getting MUCH better... as well as the president using american dollars as toiletpaper...
> ...


They are coming here because corp. american is giving them jobs. If they dont offer them jobs, then they would not come.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

diddye said:


> Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:
> 
> 
> > diddye said:
> ...


Illegals come here for work... greedy corps exploit the cheap labor...
THEY in turn send the money back to Mexico for their family who then spends it on merch... or whatever in Mexico, Thus making the rich... richer...

Why do you think Fox is not trying to stop the exploitation of poor Mexican people... but instead he almost promotes it.


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## BUBBA (Sep 4, 2003)

sadboy1981 said:


> diddye said:
> 
> 
> > Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:
> ...


The American Corps are also in Mexico like Tijuana they pay low wages and make big profits.

they want to make money any way they can..
either hiring illegals in our country or going across the border.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

BUBBA said:


> sadboy1981 said:
> 
> 
> > diddye said:
> ...


QFT









That is what I try and tell people, but everyone just wants to blame the illegals. Hell, they are thousands of employors who pray on these people for cheap labor. If the goverment wanted to, they could stop it. But they dont because it would drive cost up and profit down. And everyone knows that's not the American way.

edit: QFT=Quoted For The Truth


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

You guys are right...its not just the illegal immigrants from Mexico why our economy is failing.

Our economy is failing because people come here from other countries seeking dual citizenship. Which in turn make money here and send it back home where its worth a hell of a lot more. And once its back home live in riches.

Our economy is failing because people bring their 55+ year old family members here to collect Social Security and bring back to their country.

Our economy is failing because our gov't lowers the tariff rates on corporate America so they can go overseas and get cheap labor.

Our economy is failing because our gov't will pay hospitals to treat illegal immigrants for free and give them surgeries if and when necessary along with all the medication they should so desire the need for.

Our economy is failing because people cheat the tax system and claim they dont make enough money, while their kid gets free lunch in school and wears the most expensive clothing line.

Shall I continue, or is this enough to see the pattern as to why our economy is failing?


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

sadboy1981 said:


> diddye said:
> 
> 
> > sadboy1981 said:
> ...


That $500 is not meant to sustain them. why the hell do you think its our responsiblitty to feed, clothe, and pay for their cable tv? If you think we should give them $30,000 a year so that they can "really live", then I hope you never run for office. That $500 is good enough for food and clothes for the month. There are programs to subsidize housing. And as far as minimum wage, its possible. Move to a low income housing area...dont have kids(hey if you cant afford to pay for youself, dont have 10 kids), work your way up and contribute to this country. If its not possible, why are so many illegals able to survive eh? They seem fine and happy making so little.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

diddye said:


> sadboy1981 said:
> 
> 
> > diddye said:
> ...


But havent you said before that walfare was meant to get people back on there feet? Havent you said before that the homeless could get back on there feet with goverment programs?

If a person (ANY PERSON) were to lose their job and be out of work for a long period of time. Do you think $500 plus maybe $400 foodstamps is enough to help them get back until they get back on there feet. It's not enough!

Minimum wage is a joke and trust me when I tell you it is. No person could live on minimum wage in california. I dont care if you live in the worset area in all of CA. You could not live on minimum wage. Minimum wage is $6.75 in most parts of CA, so that means a person at full time only gets $1170 a month before taxes. That means they may only get like $900 after taxes. The cheapest rent in SoCal is about $700 plus bills, so you think a person could live on $200 a month. It is very unlikly that could happen.

_"If its not possible, why are so many illegals able to survive eh? They seem fine and happy making so little"_
Maybe because they work two jobs and only have enough to make ends meet. Dont confuse being able to survive with living happly. If you would have to choose between no food compared to some food what would you choose?

"There are programs to subsidize housing"
the programs you speak of are a joke. Section 8 has all but disappered in CA. those who have Section 8 can still use it but new people who want it, can no longer get Section 8 here in CA. How about those low income houseing you hear about the news. The rent for those are still around $800 for 1 bedroom and $900 for a 2 bedroom. So I ask how can a person who has low income afford this?

" If you think we should give them $30,000 a year so that they can "really live", then I hope you never run for office."
If I was in office, the goverment would not be spending billions on stuiped wars or building bases. Or provideding military Aid to other countrys. That money would be used to fix OUR problems and not someone elses problems. So I guess you rather allow the goverment to spend billions on a war then helping your own country men who are poor and broke.

And Like I said before 
Corp America offers and hires illegals in the first place. 
Corp America sends our jobs over seas. 
Corp America opens and runs sweatshops in third world countrys.
Corp America prays on child labor in third world countrys

The goverment allows Corp America to do this and does nothing about it. But you and many Americans dont care because you are not the one at the bottom of the ladder with these hardships.


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## sKuz (May 21, 2003)

elTwitcho said:


> No disrespect intended, but you guys haven't been the "good guys" since world war II. The conduct of the Cold War and the political meddling in Latin America and whatever else was always a case of flexing political muscle within your "sphere of influence", not being international world heros. It's really nothing new that hasn't been going on for years and years, is taking over an Arab country really all that different than organizing a revolt against an elected government because they wanted to kick the Chiquita banana corporation out of the country?
> 
> Again, no disrespect intended, you guys have your own aims and goals from your foreign policy, but it isn't a case of wanting to be world benefactors
> 
> ...


stop being jealous. I grow tired of you and your slanderous filth!! I hope that one day, when you arent paying attention, you walk right off an edge of a cliff. I know you guys have a lot of those in canaDUH. thank you and have a very american day.

Haha jk twitch!
















Nah but i dont think we are bad guys. Just because one guy or a small group of government officials makes bad decisions every once in a while, doesnt mean we are a bad country. maybe just represented poorly


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> You guys are right...its not just the illegal immigrants from Mexico why our economy is failing.
> 
> Our economy is failing because people come here from other countries seeking dual citizenship. Which in turn make money here and send it back home where its worth a hell of a lot more. And once its back home live in riches.
> 
> ...


Your economy is failing because the US lives on borrowed money (not in sense of borrowed from other countries - I'm talking about loans and so on) - it's a ticking time bomb, and when it goes off, it will be a huge mess...
Immigrants play no role whatsoever in Wall Street, don't advice Greenspan or the multinationals - the do teh dirty work because otherwise it wouldn't be done. They are not the cause: they are a symptom of a very sick economy.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Judazzz said:


> Your economy is failing because the US lives on borrowed money (not in sense of borrowed from other countries - I'm talking about loans and so on) - it's a ticking time bomb, and when it goes off, it will be a huge mess...
> Immigrants play no role whatsoever in Wall Street, don't advice Greenspan or the multinationals - the do teh dirty work because otherwise it wouldn't be done. They are not the cause: they are a symptom of a very sick economy.
> [snapback]1075600[/snapback]​


Didnt you know that is the American way of life. 
"Dont worrie Honey, just charge it" or "Dont worry, I will just get a loan aganist my house"
The goverment does the same thing most americans do. People dont really ask themselves, can I really buy for this.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

sadboy1981 said:


> Judazzz said:
> 
> 
> > Your economy is failing because the US lives on borrowed money (not in sense of borrowed from other countries - I'm talking about loans and so on) - it's a ticking time bomb, and when it goes off, it will be a huge mess...
> ...


But an individual can't cause national bankrupcy or an economic recession or crisis - a government can.
Your government is playing with fire, and is likely to get burnt severly in the future: economic analysts all over the world (not all of them, of course) agree that that's a likely scenario. The dollar is going down the drain, expenses outweigh income and the state deficit is growing to proposterous dimensions.
I hope it's not as bad as is said by many, but only time will tell...


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> Ms_Nattereri said:
> 
> 
> > You guys are right...its not just the illegal immigrants from Mexico why our economy is failing.
> ...


I disagree, they are very well part of the issue. Not the whole issue itself, of course not, but part of the issue indeed.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

i just dont know about all this talk of a failing economy sorry but everybody i know is doin better than they have in years and i know wall street isnt the best but thats the best time to make money. Hell im even up over 30% in my ret accounts just this year. I personally think this failling economy bit is more or less media hype.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

In some respect, there is more than one right answer.
No country is 100% good or 100% bad.
We all have different beefs with our own and our neighboring countries.

Every point made in this thread deserves _some_ merit in one way or another.
We are all Earthlings in the end, so I would like to extend my hand to all you members, regardless of your views on politcal issues.

To my fellow Earthlings,
A toast!


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> You guys are right...its not just the illegal immigrants from Mexico why our economy is failing.
> 
> Our economy is failing because people come here from other countries seeking dual citizenship. Which in turn make money here and send it back home where its worth a hell of a lot more. And once its back home live in riches.
> 
> ...


Our economy is failing because the goverment spends to much on the military. 
The goverment does not spend nearly as much money to help it's people.
For every tax dollar, the goverment only spent:
$.02 for housing
$.03 for nutrition
$.04 for job training
$.04 for education
$.20 for health

and yet for the following the goverment spent a lot more,
$.30 for military
$.19 for interset on debt for military loans

Dont believe me check for yourself on a approved goverment web site.

_"Taxpayers in the US will pay $204.6 billion for the cost of war in Iraq. For the same amount of money, the following could have been provided:

*46,458,805 People Receiving Health Care or 
3,545,016 Elementary School Teachers or 
27,093,473 Head Start Places for Children or 
120,351,991 Children Receiving Health Care or 
1,841,833 Affordable Housing Units or 
24,072 New Elementary Schools or 
39,665,748 Scholarships for University Students or 
3,525,313 Music and Arts Teachers or 
4,609,069 Public Safety Officers or 
361,892,756 Homes with Renewable Electricity or 
3,204,265 Port Container Inspectors*" _


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

sadboy, there are people out there that want to kill you. they are muslim radicals, and TEAM AMERICA will protect you. AMERICA F*** YEAH!!


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Fido said:


> sadboy, there are people out there that want to kill you. they are muslim radicals, and TEAM AMERICA will protect you. AMERICA F*** YEAH!!
> [snapback]1076271[/snapback]​


Okay that was funny








But hey when it's your time, it's your time.


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## Jebus (Feb 29, 2004)

Who is to say who's good and who's bad the lots of people in Iraq think your country is the devil and they think that they are the good guys.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Jebus said:


> Who is to say who's good and who's bad the lots of people in Iraq think your country is the devil and they think that they are the good guys.
> [snapback]1076291[/snapback]​


*clears throat*

Great Satan; it sounds better and is more realistic to terrorist propaganda.


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## Noble (Nov 9, 2003)

The USA is the good guys no matter how you want to frame the argument.

In every situation since the beginning of our nation has benefitted from the USA being a resource.

Ask me any question about any situation since the inception of the United States and I'll give you a perspective.

For instance, one of the first questions posed in this thread is about Cuba.

Before I answer this question I'd really like to point out that people have to make an honest attempt at grasping the bigger picture when debating politics.

Its a very dynamic arena.

Ok, Cuba....back in the days before the cold war was over we had a president named John F. Kennedy. Cuba was (still is) a communist nation during this era and was in league with Russia (USSR at the time).

We had a situation where the Russians were utilizing Cuba to make a military base.
They had missles and boats and a whole slew of guns. They were essentially going to black mail the US from this military position.

Very similar to the Iraq WMD scare was this situation that preceded it 30+ years ago. John F. Kennedy stoped trade with the communist nation because our nation was paying for the enemy to build up and destroy us. We hava had sanctions on this island ever since because of this mistrust.

Back then you could be a democrat and be tough on defense. We ended up stopping what would have been a nuclear attack from CUBA. If you ever hear of the CUBAN missle crisis you will now have a basic understanding what it is.

Read the link fully for more info. Just like in Iraq, we had pictures of silos and had to make a case for the whole operation. Thankfully, then, just like now, the right decision was made.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/photos.htm

Cuba will get its trade sacntion lifted when that hack Castro bites the dust. All the people will be free to have lives and the straigh of Florida will be a really neat place to boat around in again. Then Cuba will be a great economic partner with the USA. Hope Fidel bites the dust soon.

So, go ahead, hit me with any and all questions and I i'll school you with why the USA is the good guy. The only subject you'll hear me rant on is the Nixon administration. I am a republican but I hate Nixon. He is the real version of the democratic myths we still hear today.


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

Too bad we had real PROOF of REAL killer weapons in Cuba...thats the big difference...


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## Noble (Nov 9, 2003)

Good point, yet, I feel that since Saddam was funding terrorist training, not Al qaida but many others aften blowing things up in Israel, it seems that his removal was key in getting things rolling in the right direction. Besides, if he had gave up and not let the battle start and then won in court then Iraq and this whole situation might be very different.

Besides why is it that Hezbollah, pointing all these new weapons they suddenly have stockpiles of, at Isreal?

http://wwwc.house.gov/international_relati...9/ros021605.htm

Iran is the culprit there.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=39182

Syria is a culprit in the WMD situation.

Our problem lies in the fact that, like trying to get Osama Bin Laden out of Iran, we are already over extended in Iraq.

Even today the US is trying to supposedly respect soverign nation laws. Which is only for the media and the public to hear. As soon as they have something solid it will be revealed.

In the Cuban missle crisis we didnt know they actually had nuclear weapons in CUBA until 1992. Thats 30 years after the fact. So now, just like then, I think everything will come to light.

I do agree that as of now things are not very good for the USA in the public relation sector but just like the cold war, everyone thought Reagan was bringing on world war 3 and then ended the cold war against a barrage of horrible naysaying media coverage.

That one took not only the whole time Reagan was in office but the wall didn't come down until years after Reagan was out of office.

I know you are not disagreeing with me essentially but rather I am saying that before we can really make any conclusions we are still in the midst of the fog regarding this war on terror and all its details.


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## Pilsnah (Mar 19, 2005)

A few remarks

As I have to no avail tried to show, there is no way that America can turn on itself. In the time we live in, we are too much interconnected on more then one area. For the war in IRAQ, there is no excuse. I even think you could defend the stance that the terrorists literally came over to Iraq from neighboring countries to pick a fight.

For the situation in America I can't speak on my own accord, but I do read about the situation and it does't sound that it has gotten better since Bush, for the majority that is.

One more thing. In jan 2002 the ratio between dollar and new currency the Euro was like 1E=0.8$. Now some 3 1/2 years later it's 1E=1.3$. It simply means that the dollar has decreased rapidly in value and therefore trust in the dollar is not high, for the reasons mentioned in earlier posts.

So instead of screaming 'Team America, were the good guys, Superpower' and all that. Try to grasp wat is happening. This president will sing it out, he can't be re-elected anyway. The next one will have major problems and I'm not talking about an insecure Middle-East.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Pilsnah said:


> I even think you could defend the stance that the terrorists literally came over to Iraq from neighboring countries to pick a fight.[snapback]1076439[/snapback]​


Definitely: Hussayn never supported anti-American terrorist groups like Al Qaeda (even after Bin laden offered him his services to keep 'the enemy' at bay).
The reason why presentday Iraq is such a breeding ground for extremism and terrorism is the complete and utter absence of any Coalition plan of what to do next after Saddam was ousted (caused by misinformation, misjudgement, ignorance - who knows why this was allowed to happen?) - the power vacuum took way too long, the borders were not guarded properly, and the inland was hardly watched either. So the US can thank itself for its problems with terrorists in Iraq, and also the Iraqi's can be grateful for that.

The fact that many insurgents aren't islamic fundamentalists also shows how parts of the Iraqi population see the US: they simply want to defend their country or homes, and wheter that's because of fierce nationalism (something you'll see in _any given country_ if it's invaded, or because of personal losses, material or personal, is not even relevant). It's easy to slap the label "terrorist" on every person that dares to fire bullets at Coalition forces, but it's an extremely ignorant and uninformed thing to believe in.
The amount of rebel attacks has decreased lately, as most attacks are now terrorist in nature: obviously this is a positive development. But despite elections and reassuring words from the White House, the chances of Iraq declining into total chaos and civil war are at least as real as the chances that the conflict will end with stability and peace.
Deny it all you want: others can't take the sand out of your eyes - you'll have to do that on your own.


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

Judazzz said:


> The fact that many insurgents aren't islamic fundamentalists also shows how parts of the Iraqi population see the US: *they simply want to defend their country or homes*[snapback]1076452[/snapback]​


And the way to do that is to bomb Shiite mosques and kill Iraqi police and security forces and other innocent civilians ? US is simply trying to turn over the power to Iraqi people - and the insurgency, by targeting their own people, is extending the coalition's stay. How is suicide bombing in a restaurant full of Iraqi security forces eating lunch defending anyone's country or home ?


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Jewelz said:


> Judazzz said:
> 
> 
> > The fact that many insurgents aren't islamic fundamentalists also shows how parts of the Iraqi population see the US: *they simply want to defend their country or homes*[snapback]1076452[/snapback]​
> ...


Members of Al Qaeda and most other Iraqi terrorist organisations are Sunni muslims - by bombing Shia targets, especially mosques, they hope to provoke a civil war, destabilizing the country even further.
When referring to rebels, I was not talking about people that blow commit suicide attacks or deploy car bombs (I didn't make that connection, Jewelz - you did) - I was talking about those taking up arms against those that killed their family, destroyed their neighbourhood etc. - and there are plenty of Iraqi's that dislike the Americans as much as they dislike those terrorists: to them they're all foreigners messing up their country, foreigners that they want out...


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

Judazzz said:


> Jewelz said:
> 
> 
> > Judazzz said:
> ...


Where are those folks that you talk about ? The only time I hear about attacks in Iraq are the suicide bombings and car bombings mostly targeted against Iraqi police forces and civilians and ocassionally coalition. If there are, in fact, those rebels that you are referring to, it doesn't seem like they are that big of an issue or not 1/1000th of a problem that al-Zarqawi's terror network is. Regardless, the US forces will stay in Iraq as long as any kind of insurgency continues - at least that's the current plan.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Jewelz said:


> Judazzz said:
> 
> 
> > Jewelz said:
> ...


That's what I said in my initial post: that non-terrorist attacks on Coalition forces have decreased. There were plenty of people willing to drink Ameican blood in the early days of American occupation (because of personal reasons) - looks like terrorists are now taking that position, as most Iraqi's really hate those terrorists, more still than the Americans.

Oh, and staying in Iraq until the insurgency is stamped out is the least you can do for the Iraqi's - the Coalition played a major contributing role in the total escalation of the situation after the fall of Saddam and his party.


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## BigChuckP (Feb 9, 2004)

Judazzz said:


> Jewelz said:
> 
> 
> > Judazzz said:
> ...


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

Judazzz - I guess I misunderstood because it sounded like you suggested that many of the insurgents today are just "defending their country" in your post above:


> *The fact that many insurgents aren't islamic fundamentalists also shows how parts of the Iraqi population see the US: they simply want to defend their country or homes, and wheter that's because of fierce nationalism* (something you'll see in any given country if it's invaded, or because of personal losses, material or personal, is not even relevant). It's easy to slap the label "terrorist" on every person that dares to fire bullets at Coalition forces, but it's an extremely ignorant and uninformed thing to believe in.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

BigChuckP said:


> Judazzz said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, and staying in Iraq until the insurgency is stamped out is the least *THE GOVERNMENT*can do for the Iraqi's - the Coalition played a major contributing role in the total escalation of the situation after the fall of Saddam and his party.
> ...


If your country does bad, it's the government that did it, if it did something good, it's the US that did it








It's the same all over the world (just take sports: if a national sports team wins, it's "We won!" - if they loose, it's "They lost!")

Jewelz: I already thought you got my post wrong - most terrorists in Iraq, or at least the organisers, are foreigners (assisted by former Baathists and some extremist Iraqi's).


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

wow, this is a huge mess for no reason...


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

User said:


> Jebus said:
> 
> 
> > Who is to say who's good and who's bad the lots of people in Iraq think your country is the devil and they think that they are the good guys.
> ...


what do you mean... just curious


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

sadboy1981 said:


> Ms_Nattereri said:
> 
> 
> > You guys are right...its not just the illegal immigrants from Mexico why our economy is failing.
> ...


thanks for the numbers... i didnt know it was THAT bad


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Noble said:


> In the Cuban missle crisis we didnt know they actually had nuclear weapons in CUBA until 1992. Thats 30 years after the fact. So now, just like then, I think everything will come to light.
> 
> [snapback]1076325[/snapback]​


First of all I like to say that the US goverment KNEw since 1962 that Cuba had WMD. Russia was sending WMD to Cuba to stage a First Strike against the US, in case a WW3 ever broke out. Cuba nor Russia never publicly admited to having WMD. Fidel until the 1990's finaly admitted to having WMD for the first time. At the time the trade block may have been a good idea to stop war but it is NO longer NEEDED! It is not fair that US goverment is allowed to have thousand of nukes, chemical, and bio. weapons to kill millions. But it yet, if one country wants to build a WMD in defense from us, the US goverment CRIES foul. Sounds like a bunch of hypercrites to me. Bush did not want to sign the accord to stop making nukes, because the US wants to make SMALL NUKES.

So why do we have the right to stop another country from trade? We have no SUCH right to stop another from living there life the way they want. The people in Cuba like the way they live, all of the people who did not like it were allowed to leave durning the 80's. Millions stayed because that was there GOVERMENT! It is not our goverment but theres. So why block Cuba from trade but allow trade with China? Why, because it is about MONEY. So please dont give me your ideas on why it is okay to take the food away from a child simply because many Americans like you are scared of dying. Last I checked we are pointing WMD to countless countrys and have the power to kill millions with the push of the goverment.

edit: We are a divided Nation, but I hope that one day we have a leader who does not lean blindly to the RIGHT or the LEFT. But instead listens to the issues and make's a good call for the GOOD of all of us.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Judazzz said:


> The fact that many insurgents aren't islamic fundamentalists also shows how parts of the Iraqi population see the US: they simply want to defend their country or homes, and wheter that's because of fierce nationalism (something you'll see in _any given country_ if it's invaded, or because of personal losses, material or personal, is not even relevant). It's easy to slap the label "terrorist" on every person that dares to fire bullets at Coalition forces, but it's an extremely ignorant and uninformed thing to believe in.
> [snapback]1076452[/snapback]​


Is that right? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050621/ap_on_...iraq_insurgency

Motivated by defending their country/nationalism or $$$?


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

diddye said:


> Judazzz said:
> 
> 
> > The fact that many insurgents aren't islamic fundamentalists also shows how parts of the Iraqi population see the US: they simply want to defend their country or homes, and wheter that's because of fierce nationalism (something you'll see in _any given country_ if it's invaded, or because of personal losses, material or personal, is not even relevant). It's easy to slap the label "terrorist" on every person that dares to fire bullets at Coalition forces, but it's an extremely ignorant and uninformed thing to believe in.
> ...


I wouldn't be surprised if some indeed just plant bombs for money (that article wasn't very detailed on that, but it was a good read), but I would be surprised if that group of people would exceed those that are fighting for different reasons (ideological, religious or nationalistic).
But people do the most terrible things to earn money: just think of those that tried to profit from 9/11, or the kidnapping of orphans after last winter's tsunami...


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

diddye said:


> Judazzz said:
> 
> 
> > The fact that many insurgents aren't islamic fundamentalists also shows how parts of the Iraqi population see the US: they simply want to defend their country or homes, and wheter that's because of fierce nationalism (something you'll see in _any given country_ if it's invaded, or because of personal losses, material or personal, is not even relevant). It's easy to slap the label "terrorist" on every person that dares to fire bullets at Coalition forces, but it's an extremely ignorant and uninformed thing to believe in.
> ...


What about our Soldiers? Are not must of them there because they need the money for college, or want a good job with benifits? Sure, some are there because they want to defend freedom and believe in the cause. But a lot of soldiers that I know, dont care about the cause and just want the money.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

sadboy are you sure your really an american? all your posts have been critical so far. As for the soldiers, theres an incredible difference between a person joining the army for college(and not knowing if theres war) and an iraqi planting a bomb to kill civilians for $100. Think about that and then reply.


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## Noble (Nov 9, 2003)

sadboy1981 said:


> Noble said:
> 
> 
> > In the Cuban missle crisis we didnt know they actually had nuclear weapons in CUBA until 1992. Thats 30 years after the fact. So now, just like then, I think everything will come to light.
> ...


OK, its not a matter of international law that we have a right to stop anything within a "thats fair or nots fair" premise.

The USA has the right to build defenses based on its discretionary use of said defenses. Kind of how an adult has the right to purchase a handgun and a minor is not. My only problems with your response is that you have framed the argument in a very siplistic manner. I.E. "take food away from a child just because you are scared of dying".

This is not a way to frame an argument and is exactly what they call in the political world "spin". No one is taking food away from a child. If anything the only people that have taken food away from a child are the parents that were not responsible enough to feed it. No single entity ever since the inception of the USA has ever "taken food away from a child" for any reason. You often hear the left saying things liek this because its a nice little stab.

The Gov.t' does not have a responsibility to provide food to anyone. The USA constitution does not guarantee healthcare or food or welfare. These are socialist ideas. When the public figures out it can vote itself money from the public feedbin the country always goes into bankruptcy.

Yet, the USA tries to keep a safety net because we do believe people should have a chance to get up off the bottom. But now all that has turned into is a border policy gone wrong. If you want to Bash on Bush and company start with the immigration problem. Niether democrats or republicans seem to want to stem the flow of people coming into the US every year. Which reaches into the millions. If anyone else tried that in another country it would be considered an invasion.

Canada didn't even let more the 3,000 odd people in last year due to not wanting to screw up thier healthcare and welfare policies. Yet point the finger at us for trying to becareful with our borders when they have to life flight some one down here for medical needs.

Anyways back to Iraq and CUBA. We did know they had WMDs but we had not confirmed that they actually had nuclear warheads armed and ready until much later. We took it all out before waiting to confirm. Bakc then people knew this was a serious threat to have to stop. Now days many people would rather Hitler was all armed and storming other countries before they would let us bring our army out. you want to complain about money spent on the military, which by the way our Constitution says our Govt. HAS a responsibility to do, then try looking at how much has to happen when we wait.

In WW2 the USA tired not to get involved in the War and even though we cleaned up the mess in both the Atlantic and Pacific, Pacific due to being over in atlantic and then having Japan attack our unprotected side, we waited to get involved in that war and have been criticized ever since.

Ever hear "America, late to every war"? Looks like we weren't falling for that this time. If we would have waited and let Saddam build up his WMDs. then what would have people said? See, Saddam's own scientists have said in many interviews that given 2-3 more years he would hvae had nuclear capabilities.

So lets review....Saddam was having Nuclear components shipped in from N. Korea.

http://nuclearfree.lynx.co.nz/rippedoff.htm

Thats from the LA Times even. Which is not a right wing publication in case your worried about bias.

Well since we started the war instead of wating for the eggs to boil, N. Korea had to hold onto the missles it was going to sell. Hmm. now they have 6+ nuclear warheads larger then we've ever seen even in regards to Hiroshima.

So instead of waiting a few years, lets see its already halfway through 2005, like Saddams scientists said. Or waiting until one of his sons got into power (even more crazy unstability) we went in and cleaned up.

The UN and CIA directors all wanted to see actual armed nukes or armed bio weapons. All we ended up with were components of weapons instead of completed weapons and of course the reports of the many nukes still in N.Korea and components now in Syria.

But, let me touch on the "take food away from children". When we got involved with WW2 we had to turn the entire UNited States into a industrial complex just to provide weapons for the war. Man women and children were running factories back then just to keep up with the war. Today our economy has been able to hold up this war while still running fairly well.

Please submit further questions for more intricate answers. Believe me the USA is trying to make it all work.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

diddye said:


> sadboy are you sure your really an american? all your posts have been critical so far. As for the soldiers, theres an incredible difference between a person joining the army for college(and not knowing if theres war) and an iraqi planting a bomb to kill civilians for $100. Think about that and then reply.
> [snapback]1077013[/snapback]​


I AM A AMERICAN!!!
There are men and women in Iraq fighting aganist the USA because they believe they are fighting for there freedom. And there are people in Iraq killing anyone because they are being paid to do so and dont care about the cause. Same things go on here. We have Soldiers who believe in the cause and fight (which is why they joined) and we even have some bad apples who just joined to kill people and dont care the reason for why they are fighting. It is almost impossable to tell why a person joins in the first place. 
WHat is wrong with seeing both sides of the coin?


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Noble said:


> sadboy1981 said:
> 
> 
> > Noble said:
> ...


I never said the USA had to give food to childern. I simply stated the opinion of what a trade blockade can do to the childern of said country. So please dont tell me it is just the Left talk, I am not from the Left nor the Right. 
Yes, we should have the right to defend ourselfs from threat but does not another country have the right to defend themselfs from us? Of course they do. We have the weapons and not them. Yet, we are ready to kill thousands in the name if freedom by stopping them from getting WMD.

Ever heard of MAD? I am sure you did, so no country would send WMD over here, because they know if they did, we would do the same.

And the saying about "America, always late to war" is an old saying from old wars and does not matter in preasent time.

What matters is that Cuba is not a threat and even if it was, we have no RIGHT to take away there freedoms.


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

Noble said:


> The Gov.t' does not have a responsibility to provide food to anyone. The USA constitution does not guarantee healthcare or food or welfare. These are socialist ideas. When the public figures out it can vote itself money from the public feedbin the country always goes into bankruptcy.
> 
> [snapback]1077070[/snapback]​


YES !!!









That's exactly why I think we need Libertarians to emerge. The left in this country - and when I say "left" I now mean both Democrats and Republicans believe in social responsibility rather than individual responsibility - free handouts paid for by taxpayers, that's why most of us are paying close to 50% in income tax. A lof of the Republicans have shifted so far to the left I can hardly distinguish them from the Dems if it wasn't for the ocassional bible thumping. Libertarians are the true conservative party that stands for small government and fiscal responsibility.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

diddye said:


> sadboy are you sure your really an american? all your posts have been critical so far.[snapback]1077013[/snapback]​


Intelligence or a critical mind have nothing to do with nationality - it's a character trait. Be glad some are still critical about what the government does: can't imagine how society would look like if everyone would be obedient sheep...


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