# Water Changes



## THE BLACK PIRANHA

I have been on here alot lately and I see everyone saying how important it is to have you tank cycled before adding fish, you do not have to cycle a tank as long as you do large regular water changes. You can take any number of fish and add the to a new tank with no substrate and no bio filter and Im talking about a bare tank. Water changes dilute dissolved substances from the water. Yes a cycled tank is important if you are not taking proper care of you tank ie water changes. I am just tired of member bashing hobbiest for not going about it the way they want them to. There are people out there with no bio filter and no filter period they just have there tanks set up to a slow constant feed of fresh water. So you can post you feeling on this but there have been studies done that the most important thing you can do is water changes hell with the bacteria hell with a bio filter period. Let me here what you think is more important a cycled tank or water changes a why.....


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## jmax611




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## JoeDizzleMPLS

water changes aren't supposed to remove ammonia and nitrite in an established tank, they remove nitrate, which is the end product of the nitrifying bacteria... ammonia and nitrite are dangerous to fish even at low levels so in order to keep levels safe in an uncycled tank, you would be performing water changes at least once a day.

i think you have misunderstood the cycling process and what it does... water changes and a cycled tank go hand in hand, it's not an either/or situation.


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## Plowboy

Your overlooking one major thing. Yes you can keep fish alive by doing a ton of water changes, but even with 50%+ water changes everyday your ammo content will never be zero. So your water will be ok but far from perfect.

On top of that your ph will probably be bouncing around pretty hard and pretty often with 50% water changes twice a week. There will also be temperature fluctuations. Again, not good.

Water changes work, but proper filtration with water changes works better.


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## Ægir

Unless you cycle your tank, you have NO BACTERIA (and dont start with that quick start boi spira junk) therefore when you are doing water changes early, you are likely HINDERING a cycle (and balance of bacteria/ waste)from occurring...

Think of it like this, bacteria grow (multiply) to a point that they are consuming all of the "food" in the tank, if theres too many bacteria, some starve and the field evens out.... When you do a water change (during the cycle, or before), you are depleting ammonia and things they feed on, so you are really screwing up the balance of food/bacteria. Then 1/2 your bacteria starves, and then your ammonia goes back up because theres not as many bacteria to consume it... its going to rapidly spike, then fall as the colony grows back to a stable level. and will keep doing so until you let the ammonia drop to 0

When you do a water change on a CYCLED tank, your bacteria has already grown to a stable population (consuming all of the waste) and theres no more (or low levels) of ammonia... because you arent removing ammonia directly. the population will show little signs of die off.


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## cobrafox46

No matter how many water changes you do on a new uncycled tank.....you will still get an ammonia reading. So I could throw 20 Pygos in a 55 gallon tank and feed them twice a day, do water changes and never get an ammonia reading


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

My point here is to stop telling people that are setting up new tanks that cycling is the most important thing. If you do regular water changes you are removing ammonia,nitrates,nitrites and anything that is in your water and bringing it to a more pure state. Look at it this way would you like to be stuck in a bathroom full of sh*t with a constant cleaning and fresh air coming in or would you rather be in their with an animal that just eats the sh*t and produces somthing thats not as smelly as the sh*t. Myself would like a good cleaning and fresh air. Thats what we do to our fish on a regular basis. We need to preach more on water changes in a new tank and not so much on a cycled tank. If you start new and do more water changes the tank will cycle its self you dont have to do a 1 or 2 month cycle. My point of this is to some of the member bashing on people for not cycling the tank up to par. Instead let them know to do there water changes to keep ever thing in check so they do not have a problem.



jmax611 said:


>


Come on John do you have anything to add?


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## Ægir

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


>


Come on John do you have anything to add?
[/quote]

it is the most important thing... starting off with a good solid and stable base is a good thing.

As for the water change thing, you still arent getting me... without a cycle, water changes are doing nothing but hindering your bacteria growth, and preventing a stable population. Actually you are just causing another mini cycle to occur.

If i put 100 people (bacteria) and 100 cheeseburgers (food, ammonia or whatever) in a room, everybody would get one and not starve.... if i have 100 people, and 25 cheeseburgers (removing food through a water change) 75 people arent going to get one, and be hungry. Then, theres going to be 25 people, and 100 cheeseburgers (75 sitting there rotting) the next day, theres going to be 150 sitting, and so on... until the people population and cheese burgers are stable (a completed cycle) i can go on forever, and end up with 1 person, and 1000 cheeseburgers sitting around that need manual removal, because they arent being naturally consumed.

UNLESS YOU ARE CONSTANTLY CHANGING WATER (24-7) you are going to see spikes in ammonia as the waste builds up faster than the bacteria can consume it. then the population will grow to stability... but if you do another water change, you are back to square one, with too much food that you are just removing yourself.

Water changes are extremely important to remove the end product of the nitrogen cycle (you need a cycled tank to even complete that!), but diluting contaminated (high ammonia etc) water does nothing but cause ANOTHER mini cycle and prolong your problem. Eventually there will become a balance (if your water changes are precise and routine) but it wont be as stable as a weekly water change, AFTER waiting the week for a population to flurish and take care of everything naturally.

REcap: A cycle is important, and so are water changes... but at the right time.


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## philbert

you don't get it do you. the only thing you are supposed to remove with a waterchange is nitrate. THERE SHOULD BE NO AMMONIA EVER!!!!!! EVER!!!!!! EVER!!!!! no nitrite for that matter. thats the point of the cycle.

you don't do water changes on a tank that is cycling.

this is the way you set up a tank

1 - set it up
2 - put water in
3 - start filters
4 - put in a few gold fish cons whatever to cycle
5 - wait about a month or so till your have 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and only nitrates
6 stock Ps

i don't get what you don't get about this. is it really that tough to figure out?


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

I must really be going over your heads on this one, but keep it coming.


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## Grosse Gurke

Instead of your sh*t theory....how about this:

Take a large glass half filled with water. Now piss in the glass to bring it to 3/4 full. Next you empty out half the water and fill it up with fresh clean water....would you drink the glass of water? I wouldnt. Even though the piss is diluted...there is still piss in the water.

Or:

Take a large glass with a filter attached and fill it half with water. you piss in the glass to bring it to 3/4 full. The filter takes your piss and converts it to something that is relatively harmless like Pepsi. Would you drink the glass of water now? Even though I dont like pop....I would rather drink that then my own piss.

So although I do agree that water changes are important...and you might get fish to survive in a filterless tank.....I personally would rather have a filter and monthly water changes...then no filter and daily water changes.


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## Ægir

Grosse Gurke said:


> Instead of your sh*t theory....how about this:
> 
> Take a large glass half filled with water. Now piss in the glass to bring it to 3/4 full. Next you empty out half the water and fill it up with fresh clean water....would you drink the glass of water? I wouldnt. Even though the piss is diluted...there is still piss in the water.
> 
> Or:
> 
> Take a large glass with a filter attached and fill it half with water. you piss in the glass to bring it to 3/4 full. The filter takes your piss and converts it to something that is relatively harmless like Pepsi. Would you drink the glass of water now? Even though I dont like pop....I would rather drink that then my own piss.
> 
> So although I do agree that water changes are important...and you might get fish to survive in a filterless tank.....I personally would rather have a filter and monthly water changes...then no filter and daily water changes.


WAY better than my cheeseburger analogy...


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

Grosse Gurke said:


> Instead of your sh*t theory....how about this:
> 
> Take a large glass half filled with water. Now piss in the glass to bring it to 3/4 full. Next you empty out half the water and fill it up with fresh clean water....would you drink the glass of water? I wouldnt. Even though the piss is diluted...there is still piss in the water.
> 
> Or:
> 
> Take a large glass with a filter attached and fill it half with water. you piss in the glass to bring it to 3/4 full. The filter takes your piss and converts it to something that is relatively harmless like Pepsi. Would you drink the glass of water now? Even though I dont like pop....I would rather drink that then my own piss.
> 
> So although I do agree that water changes are important...and you might get fish to survive in a filterless tank.....I personally would rather have a filter and monthly water changes...then no filter and daily water changes.


I agree with you GG but I not trying to tell people they dont need a filter, but I just want people to stop bashing on others for not doing a full cycle.There tanks will be fine as long as they keep up on water changes to keep ammonia in check in newly set up tanks.


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## philbert

yea you still need to cycle the tank to have the BEST possible water to introduce fish to a new tank. there is noway around it no matter how many water you do. you arent over anyone's head with your theory its not that it cant work. its just nowhere near the best option to choose.

why bother with having to do a ton of waterchanges when you could just cycle the newly setup tank properly? and its their (not there) tanks and no amonia is good on fish so their tanks maynot be ok. they may have gotten sensetive fish that won't do well with even a little ammonia.

what if someone takes your advice? sets up a brand new tank and goes out an buys Ps that day and dumps them in they do a 50% waterchange everday and their fish die from ammonia? you going to give them $$$ to replace the fish?


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## Ægir

And you really cant say that you "arent going to cycle your tank"... eventually its going to cycle and find a balance of waste and bacteria regardless of what you do (100% water changes daily even). You might as well do it the easy way, in a week or 2 with no stress or lost fish and a cocktail shrimp... AS OPPOSED to putting everything in, stressing your fish, doing tons of water changes and doing NOTHING BUT PROLONG the cycle time. It could take 10 years for a tank to "cycle" because you are doing 100% water changes weekly, but its still going to happen, and you still could have achieved the same thing in 2 weeks.

Why not do it the easy and painless way? All you are doing is creating work for yourself.


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

I have never gave my tanks a full cycle and I have great growth rates and I have never lost a fish.


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## philbert

i guess some people cut corners and are ok with it. others hold themselves to a high standard.


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## Ægir

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


> I have never gave my tanks a full cycle and I have great growth rates and I have never lost a fish.


You cant say you never gave your tanks a full cycle... because you did, just in a much harder, longer, and difficult way. By throwing your fish into the tank (regardless of how you set it up), you are going to cause a "cycle"... NO MATTER HOW MANY WATER CHANGES you do, your tank is going to cycle eventually. ALL YOU ARE DOING is prolonging the length of time it takes for it to happen.

You do it the described way with a shrimp or ammonia and it takes 2 weeks... The nitrogen cycle is complete, and your water changes are removing waste efficently

OR

Your way is setting up the tank, letting it run or whatever (a partial cycle at best) and then adding your fish. Then, the fish add more waste, and it takes time for the bacteria population to multiply... so your ammonia is high, and then you do a water change which removes (dilutes) ammonia and KILLS THE BACTERIA you were just trying to grow because they starve... Then, the fish add more waste, and it takes time for the bacteria population to multiply... so your ammonia is high, and then you do a water change which removes (dilutes) ammonia and KILLS THE BACTERIA you were just trying to grow because they starve... Then, the fish add more waste, and it takes time for the bacteria population to multiply... so your ammonia is high, and then you do a water change which removes (dilutes) ammonia and KILLS THE BACTERIA you were just trying to grow because they starve... 
Then, the fish add more waste, and it takes time for the bacteria population to multiply... so your ammonia is high, and then you do a water change which removes (dilutes) ammonia and KILLS THE BACTERIA you were just trying to grow because they starve... Then, the fish add more waste, and it takes time for the bacteria population to multiply... so your ammonia is high, and then you do a water change which removes (dilutes) ammonia and KILLS THE BACTERIA you were just trying to grow because they starve... Then, the fish add more waste, and it takes time for the bacteria population to multiply... so your ammonia is high, and then you do a water change which removes (dilutes) ammonia and KILLS THE BACTERIA you were just trying to grow because they starve... Then, the fish add more waste, and it takes time for the bacteria population to multiply... so your ammonia is high, and then you do a water change which removes (dilutes) ammonia and KILLS THE BACTERIA you were just trying to grow because they starve... Then, the fish add more waste, and it takes time for the bacteria population to multiply... so your ammonia is high, and then you do a water change which removes (dilutes) ammonia and KILLS THE BACTERIA you were just trying to grow because they starve... Then, the fish add more waste, and it takes time for the bacteria population to multiply... so your ammonia is high, and then you do a water change which removes (dilutes) ammonia and KILLS THE BACTERIA you were just trying to grow because they starve... Then, the fish add more waste, and it takes time for the bacteria population to multiply... so your ammonia is high, and then you do a water change which removes (dilutes) ammonia and KILLS THE BACTERIA you were just trying to grow because they starve...

Its a NEVER ENDING CIRCLE JERK that is achieving NOTHING (you should read that whole paragraph just to see how F'N redundant it really is)

I honestly think you dont understand what you are even saying. Go do some reading on the Nitrogen cycle, and then come back


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## xeloR

This is sound advice for anyone new to the hobby


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

You want a cycle I can tell you how to do a dam cycle in 3 minutes, step 1 pull sponge out of existing tank, step 2 squeeze sponge into a cup, step 3 pore cup into tank. The tank is cycled. Think what you want but I have done more research on fish, tanks,and yada yada than you will ever know and thats why I have never had a problem and never will but I am just tired of seeing the same people on here telling every one your putting what in your tank and you havent cycled your tank blah blah blah blah and I am just tired of hearing the same old sh*t. This is a information web site for people in the piranha hobby not a place for you to just tell people they dont know what hell hell they are doing and they are going to kill there fish if they dont cycle there tanks. So why dont you shove you head up you ass and do your fish a favor and go do a water change. And Im non talking to every one the people I am talking about know who they are.











mtuttle02 said:


> This is sound advice for anyone new to the hobby


Yes it is.


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## jmax611

Skunkbudfour20 said:


> I honestly think you dont understand what you are even saying. Go do some reading on the Nitrogen cycle, and then come back


 i think his point is to help new members once they come here instead of bashing them. he knows that a cycle is ideal but why bash a new member cause they didnt do it that way (it happens alot) so once a new member signs up instead of bashing the them drill it into there heads that they must do water changes to help correct their mistake and help them learn about the whole process.


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## cobrafox46

I do not see anyone ripping on people for not cycling. If you know you need to cycle but still order the fish without a cycle it is irresponsible but to each there own. The advice he is giving is not correct at all. Piranha are tough fish and can withstand a cycle but what is going to happen when the person taking this ignorant advice moves onto harder fish to keep that will not withstand a cycle? They are going to lose their prize fish and be out a lot of money because of one person giving incorrect advice!!!!


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## jmax611

cobrafox46 said:


> is the tank cycled or not?
> i do hope it is or you are gonna loose 10 innocent caribe's
> 
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> 
> do post pics when you got the fish in and its all done. souns like you got yorself a great setup


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## philbert

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


> This is sound advice for anyone new to the hobby


Yes it is.
[/quote]

yea but you had to cycle the filter you are taking the BB from or someone did. getting a cycled filter is the point of this. if you use BB from a cycled filter yeah your tank is cycled. but if you don't have established media to draw from you won't have a cycled tank. you are achieving the cycle. just in a very round about way that is not the most effecient. but starting from brand new with a brand new tank and filter and no sponge filter already cycled. your way takes way long and you are exposing the fish to ammonia versus if you did a cycle all the way thru to 0 amonia 0 nitrite and only nitrates then you wouldn't be.

but you are right we all bow down to your knowledge.


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## cobrafox46

jmax611 said:


> is the tank cycled or not?
> i do hope it is or you are gonna loose 10 innocent caribe's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> do post pics when you got the fish in and its all done. souns like you got yorself a great setup


[/quote]

Yeah some comments are uncalled for and unnecessary and you are going to get that no matter what , but meanfully giving incorrect advice is NOT RIGHT and does not make it better. Most of us are nice about the infromation and give it in a respectful manner to those that are new to the hobby.


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## philbert

cobrafox46 said:


> I do not see anyone ripping on people for not cycling. If you know you need to cycle but still order the fish without a cycle it is irresponsible but to each there own. The advice he is giving is not correct at all. Piranha are tough fish and can withstand a cycle but what is going to happen when the person taking this ignorant advice moves onto harder fish to keep that will not withstand a cycle? They are going to lose their prize fish and be out a lot of money because of one person giving incorrect advice!!!!


thats what i was saying. his bad advice may lead to other ppls fish suffering. first he was saying that you can just get away with not cycling and doing waterchanges. Now he's saying to squeez and sponge filter in the tank, which will obv cycle it or add some BB. still the tank probably won't be totally cycled with no ammonia.

thisthe RIGHT thing to do is cycle the tank so there is no ammonia or nitrite then add fish and do waterchanges. and to not unnecessarily expose fish to ammonia.


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## Ægir

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


> Yeah some comments are uncalled for and unnecessary and you are going to get that no matter what , but meanfully giving incorrect advice is NOT RIGHT and does not make it better. Most of us are nice about the infromation and give it in a respectful manner to those that are new to the hobby.


I am nice and respectful until people throw it back in my face and make it a personal argument. Like i said before, i am willing to go out of my way to help ANYBODY who wants to learn (ask the countless members i have chated over PM with about saltwater) BUT when you attack me, or say my opinion is wrong after you ASKED for it... if i need to be more direct to get the point across then i will. And its far better than saying nothing and let you go learn the hard way, like i did when i got into this hobby 10 years ago and wasnt cycling my tanks, killing fish, etc. because nobody brow beat me regarding the basics.

Really, the only reason is your best interest so... why get upset


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

For your information I didnt







of GG It was more geared to you,the cycle I talked about was not what I do me and Jmax were talking on the phone about someone who had said that on another unnamed site but Im glad we finally have a place for new comers to read about this before they get bashed on and dont want to come to this site anymore. Their is not many people that got into this hobby and knew everything they needed to know and did everthing right the first time. When I first got into the hobby I didnt have a ton of books or a web site to go to I just got a tank put water in it and added so reds. There was no cycling everything was new and I still never lost one of those fish by the grace of god. But instead of bashing lets try to help them resolve the problem, I am an impulse buyer and I dont always cycle my tanks, if I see a fish I buy it and figure out the rest when I get home but I always have tanks running and have extra filters running I can use. The way you talk to people is if they dont let the tank build up a colony of bacteria they are doing it wrong. There are other ways to talk to people so your not making them feel there f*cking stupid we all have are ways of doing thing but it doesnt make them all right or wrong.


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

philbert said:


> I do not see anyone ripping on people for not cycling. If you know you need to cycle but still order the fish without a cycle it is irresponsible but to each there own. The advice he is giving is not correct at all. Piranha are tough fish and can withstand a cycle but what is going to happen when the person taking this ignorant advice moves onto harder fish to keep that will not withstand a cycle? They are going to lose their prize fish and be out a lot of money because of one person giving incorrect advice!!!!


thats what i was saying. his bad advice may lead to other ppls fish suffering. first he was saying that you can just get away with not cycling and doing waterchanges. Now he's saying to squeez and sponge filter in the tank, which will obv cycle it or add some BB. still the tank probably won't be totally cycled with no ammonia.

thisthe RIGHT thing to do is cycle the tank so there is no ammonia or nitrite then add fish and do waterchanges. and to not unnecessarily expose fish to ammonia.
[/quote]

Yes I did say you can get away with not cycling but if you look back I was talking about a full bare tank no substate no filter but a constant feed system like they do in Asia. Some people in Asia have there set up so it has a constant flow of fresh water coming in and old water going out, there is no ammonia so no theirs no need for bacteria so no cycle. Just one of many ways to keep your fish.


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## Ægir

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


> For your information I didnt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> of GG It was more geared to you,the cycle I talked about was not what I do me and Jmax were talking on the phone about someone who had said that on another unnamed site but Im glad we finally have a place for new comers to read about this before they get bashed on and dont want to come to this site anymore. Their is not many people that got into this hobby and knew everything they needed to know and did everthing right the first time. When I first got into the hobby I didnt have a ton of books or a web site to go to I just got a tank put water in it and added so reds. There was no cycling everything was new and I still never lost one of those fish by the grace of god. But instead of bashing lets try to help them resolve the problem, I am an impulse buyer and I dont always cycle my tanks, if I see a fish I buy it and figure out the rest when I get home but I always have tanks running and have extra filters running I can use. The way you talk to people is if they dont let the tank build up a colony of bacteria they are doing it wrong. There are other ways to talk to people so your not making them feel there f*cking stupid we all have are ways of doing thing but it doesnt make them all right or wrong.


I havent bashed, flamed, insulted, or called you stupid you once, nor have i said you were fully wrong. I do think that your argument isnt entirely correct, but were both correct in a way. Water changes are important, EQUALLY as important as a cycle. I see where you are coming from, and you are entitled to that... but until you provide scientific proof backing your statement that "water changes are more important" (or any proof at all) not just opinion, then i would have a reason to believe your statement and take interest.



> As the amount of ammonia starts to increase, a bacteria forms called nitrosomonas. This bacteria begins to convert the ammonia into nitrite. As the ammonia is converted to nitrite, the amount of ammonia will begin to drop and now the nitrites will begin to rise. Soon your ammonia test will show no more ammonia in your tank. This usually happens within the first week and a half of a normal cycle. Nitrite is also very toxic to fish, though not as hazardous as ammonia.
> 
> As the nitrite levels increase, another bacteria forms, called nitrobacter. This second bacteria begins to convert the nitrite into nitrate. As it is converted to nitrate, the amount of nitrite will drop and the nitrates will begin to rise. Soon your nitrite test will show no more nitrite in your tank. This happens between three to six weeks in a normal cycle. Nitrate is harmless to fish but is one of the nutrients that plants and algae need and is the final product produced in the nitrification cycle. *One of the reasons that water changes are recommended is to keep nitrates at lower levels.*


So without a cycle, water changes are doing nothing but the same thing as GGs piss cup analogy. and also hindering the growth of new bacteria to stabilize the population and fully remove waste.

WE ARE BOTH (atleast half) CORRECT, but water changes cant replace or compensate in any way... sorry man

And not once have i told a person if they dont let a colony grow completely they are wrong... theres 1000 ways to get a head start and use filter media, etc etc etc. But when you state "you have never cycled your tanks" that means you arent using established media before adding fish, you arent using ANYTHING but adding your new fish to a tank freshly filled with the garden hose and dechlorinator.

If your initial statement was "I use established media, and then keep up on water changes" then we wouldnt be here in the first place.


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## Ba20

Ill just throw this in, You need to go buy a freshwater master test kit, try your sponge/bacteria method and see what your results are. I have a drip system on my 180 and i still saw a dramatic nitrite spike when i was cycling my aquarium. Granted a drip system is differnt than a water change, but i still think you'll be shocked by the results. If your willling to put your fish through that you dont deserve to have them. Sh|t happens but you should try and avoid it at all cost. Its called being responsible. O and btw for who ever said that water changes cause stress due to ph/temp changes. You should match your water in a seperate water tank/container before ever adding it to your system. Everything here is IMO TY and enjoy


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## Ægir

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


> Yes I did say you can get away with not cycling but if you look back I was talking about a full bare tank no substate no filter but a constant feed system like they do in Asia. Some people in Asia have there set up so it has a constant flow of fresh water coming in and old water going out, there is no ammonia so no theirs no need for bacteria so no cycle. Just one of many ways to keep your fish.


Its impossible to have fish waste, without ammonia, and its impossible to not have bacteria where theres ammonia... a cycle has happened in those tanks with automatic water changers


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## NegativeSpin

/////Edited for better accuracy.

I have a spreadsheet that I worked out that estimates ammonia and nitrates based on size and number of fish and amount of filtration. If I set the filter efficiency to 100% it can model what would happen with a drip system.

In the case of a 120 gallon tank with 6 6 inch redbellies (20 gallons per fish) I can set the flow rate of the drip system to 5 gph, which is 1 volume change per day. At that flow rate the steady state concentration of free ammonia at pH 7 (same as tap) would be approximately 6.5 PPB. The level that is recognized to be toxic to fish is 50 PPB. Two fully cycled AC110's on that setup would produce a steady state free ammonia level at 0.152 PPB at pH 6.2 assuming their biological filtration efficiency is only 3%.


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

And not once have i told a person if they dont let a colony grow completely they are wrong... theres 1000 ways to get a head start and use filter media, etc etc etc. But when you state "you have never cycled your tanks" that means you arent using established media before adding fish, you arent using ANYTHING but adding your new fish to a tank freshly filled with the garden hose and dechlorinator.

If you look back I dont say I dont cycle at all I said I have never done a full cycle. Add the system I am talking about is not a drip system, over in asia discus dreeders and flowerhorn breeders use a system that is a constent flow of fresh water it doesnt replace what evaporates. I will see if I can find it and post a link but its been a while since I was into discus.


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## Ægir

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


> And not once have i told a person if they dont let a colony grow completely they are wrong... theres 1000 ways to get a head start and use filter media, etc etc etc. But when you state "you have never cycled your tanks" that means you arent using established media before adding fish, you arent using ANYTHING but adding your new fish to a tank freshly filled with the garden hose and dechlorinator.
> 
> If you look back I dont say I dont cycle at all I said I have never done a full cycle. Add the system I am talking about is not a drip system, over in asia discus dreeders and flowerhorn breeders use a system that is a constent flow of fresh water it doesnt replace what evaporates. I will see if I can find it and post a link but its been a while since I was into discus.


A drip system is exactly what you are talking about... it constantly adds fresh filtered water, and drains the old water off.

The post by NegativeSpin was dead on


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## Ba20

> it constantly adds fresh filtered water, and drains the old water off.


But remember skunk you also lose some of that fresh water you added along with the old !


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## Ægir

Ba20 said:


> it constantly adds fresh filtered water, and drains the old water off.
> 
> 
> 
> But remember skunk you also lose some of that fresh water you added along with the old !
Click to expand...

I didnt want to confuse anybody by getting too in depth


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## NegativeSpin

View attachment ToxinSheet2.zip


Here is the sheet. It could be made more accurate by getting better values for nitrate production and filter efficiency by taking periodic samples and sending them to a professional laboratory to get total ammonia levels down the the PPB level.


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## Ba20

> I didnt want to confuse anybody by getting too in depth


Haha yeah i hear ya, just didnt want anyone to try and set you straight.


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## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer

I would rather cycle my tank and have healthy fish to sit back and enjoy, rather than having to to deal with the chore of changing large quantities of water every f*cking day just so my fish stay alive.


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## NegativeSpin

/////Edited for better accuracy.

I have a spreadsheet that I worked out that estimates ammonia and nitrates based on size and number of fish and amount of filtration. If I set the filter efficiency to 100% it can model what would happen with a drip system.

In the case of a 120 gallon tank with 6 6 inch redbellies (20 gallons per fish) I can set the flow rate of the drip system to 5 gph, which is 1 volume change per day. At that flow rate the steady state concentration of free ammonia at pH 7 (same as tap) would be approximately 6.5 PPB. The level that is recognized to be toxic to fish is 50 PPB. Two fully cycled AC110's on that setup would produce a steady state free ammonia level at 0.152 PPB at pH 6.2 assuming their biological filtration efficiency is only 3%.


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## Trigga

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


> You want a cycle I can tell you how to do a dam cycle in 3 minutes, step 1 pull sponge out of existing tank, step 2 squeeze sponge into a cup, step 3 pore cup into tank. The tank is cycled. Think what you want but I have done more research on fish, tanks,and yada yada than you will ever know and thats why I have never had a problem and never will but I am just tired of seeing the same people on here telling every one your putting what in your tank and you havent cycled your tank blah blah blah blah and I am just tired of hearing the same old sh*t. This is a information web site for people in the piranha hobby not a place for you to just tell people they dont know what hell hell they are doing and they are going to kill there fish if they dont cycle there tanks. So why dont you shove you head up you ass and do your fish a favor and go do a water change. And Im non talking to every one the people I am talking about know who they are.












I agree dude a lot of people on here come of as dicks with they're my way or the highway sh*t.. Shitt until about 2 months I never tested my water.. And guess what It was perfect.. My version of cycling a tank is two goldfish and some tetras in the running tank for a week or so and in goes the new fish. People have been keeping fish for hundreds of years and there is not just one way to do something..

Btw I think a lot of you think piranha are lot more fragile than they are.. They live in the f*cking amazon and except in remote regions (probably not where the majority of our fish are coming from) the water is filthy and polluted.. These fish are tough and can handle a little ammonia I'm sure


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## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer

Trigga the fish in the wild are not in a closed system like they are in our tanks. All of the pollutants are constantly being moved away with new water coming in every second. I don't even get why this is brought up, cycling a tank is the basic thing for anyone that keeps fish. If you cant take the time to cycle it just f*ck off and let someone who will take the fish, at least it wont have to suffer for the time being. Afterall their living animals whih we are robbing from the environment, might as well give them the best home possible and not be lazy.

BTW whats wrong with jumping on someone who hasn't cycled their tank? Are you a little bitch or something? It's their damn fault for not properly researching aquarium basics before they go and set it up.

The only problem I have with this thread is a guest or someone new to the hobby might read it and think that cycling a tank is a waste of time.


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## NegativeSpin

If you do 30% water changes every day on a maxed out fish tank during what should be the cycle you'll get around 21 PPB of free ammonia almost half of what is considered to be lethal. You could lose some of the weaker fish during this period.


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## Plowboy

NegativeSpin said:


> If you do 30% water changes every day on a maxed out fish tank during what should be the cycle you'll get around 21 PPB of free ammonia almost half of what is considered to be lethal. You could lose some of the weaker fish during this period.


Thanks for the added math, and the spreadsheet download.


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## Trigga

speakyourmind said:


> Trigga the fish in the wild are not in a closed system like they are in our tanks. All of the pollutants are constantly being moved away with new water coming in every second. I don't even get why this is brought up, cycling a tank is the basic thing for anyone that keeps fish. If you cant take the time to cycle it just f*ck off and let someone who will take the fish, at least it wont have to suffer for the time being. Afterall their living animals whih we are robbing from the environment, might as well give them the best home possible and not be lazy..
> 
> BTW whats wrong with jumping on someone who hasn't cycled their tank? Are you a little bitch or something? It's their damn fault for not properly researching aquarium basics before they go and set it up.
> 
> The only problem I have with this thread is a guest or someone new to the hobby might read it and think that cycling a tank is a waste of time.


sure but these are not discus where the slightest water disruption will kill them (with the exception of mannys).. They are tought fish that deal with drought, eat rotting food and live in water consistantly being polluted by humans (so what if the water flows.. Pollution doesn't stop). They are a lot hardier than people give them credit for...


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## Ba20

trigga we all know how much you know/understand about water chemistry when you made this comment


> Found out why plum... R/O machines remove alot of the natural minerals and other beneficial stuff from the water...by purifying it it pretty much makes it just basically h20. Normal water has a bunch of other stuff in it in trace elements that are beneficial to fish.
> 
> Although i guess you could buy all those trace element suppliments and add them to your tank, they are known to cause algae bloom and they arent very cheap.. i bought a four oz bottle of vitachem online and it ran me 20 bucks with taxes and all that. It will last me a while since i just add it to the food but i cant imagine adding some after every waterchange


And pollution doesnt equal NH3-4


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## Trigga

It doesn't matter what you think I know or don't know.. 100% r/o water is not good for your fish anyone will tell you that.

Where did you get NH3-4 from?

And btw when I started using a vitamin supplement and learned what a huge impact it has.. I now add it after every waterchange


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## Ba20

You are very right about two things, Straight RO water isnt good, and that it doesnt matter what i think. Your ignorance speaks for itself, in the fact that you thought Vita-chem is what you add to water to bring your gh/kh up. By the look up NH3 you might learn two things tonight.

By the Way look up ***


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## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer

Trigga said:


> . My version of cycling a tank is two goldfish and some tetras in the running tank for a week or so and in goes the new fish.


what? How do you know when the cycle is over then, how can the cycle be over in just a week


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## Ba20

He dont know he's trying to find out what NH3-4 is right now as we speak.


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## Trigga

Ba20 said:


> He dont know he's trying to find out what NH3-4 is right now as we speak.


Actually I don't really give a f*ck what it is and didn't look it up


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

I did not want this to turn into a train wreck, but we are getting alot of different views here. This will be a good place for newbs to come and learn quite a bit after its all said and done.


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

Skunkbudfour20 said:


> Yes I did say you can get away with not cycling but if you look back I was talking about a full bare tank no substate no filter but a constant feed system like they do in Asia. Some people in Asia have there set up so it has a constant flow of fresh water coming in and old water going out, there is no ammonia so no theirs no need for bacteria so no cycle. Just one of many ways to keep your fish.


Its impossible to have fish waste, without ammonia, and its impossible to not have bacteria where theres ammonia... a cycle has happened in those tanks with automatic water changers
[/quote]

The tanks in asia are not a drip system they completely run new water through with at least a 5 times turn over a day not a small couple drips ahour so there is no build up of waste so no ammonia and no bacteria. Since you think you are so damn smart go do some research.


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## Ba20

Trigga - If you dont/didn't have a test kit it to check water, and you dont know what NH3-4, is you dont need to be commenting on any topics pertaining to the nitrification cycle. There are many beginner's guide's to cycling that you can read.

Black piranha - I know what your talking, about when i was in south korea i saw many systems like this. I dont think they have chlorine in there water.


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## Trigga

Oh yeah it's probably on my test kit .. Like I said I didn't bother looking it up like I said because I could honestly care less

Fish keeping doesn't have to be so complicated.. In Sri lanka a filter is a luxury item in tanks and tanks are filled as the water evaporates.. My uncle has HUGE giant gourami and arrowanas back home.. I doubt he knows what ammonia nitrite and nitrate have to do with keeping fish.

I find the more you worry about every little detail.. The more things can go wrong..

As I said before these aren't discus


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## Trigga

Just to be clear I am not advocating any short cuts..I just agree with tbp original point that people need to back up off noobs and try to correct them without scaring them away..


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## Grosse Gurke

WTF people....just stop!!

Damn...what is this...."I know more about the cycle then you do!!!!!!"

I dont know about you people....but I run into a bunch of know-it-all pricks when I am looking for information and that is the last time I go there. You really want to help people in this hobby then you all need to bring yourself back to earth and stop with the holier then thou attitude. I would be willing to bet that we loose more new members because of the wanabe fish gurus then anything else. You know what that translates to? People not receiving accurate information on how to care for their piranhas which hurts this hobby. So please....have a fricken discussion on the merits of the argument and loose the attitude.

I might not agree with the theory presented in this topic....but so what....if the guy wants to do daily water changes until his tank cycles thats his problem. The fact is that ammonia/nitrite levels should be kept relatively low until the tank builds up a bacteria base. One problem with this is that bacteria populations will be relatively low when compared to the bio-load of the tank....so in order to prevent spikes....he would need to keep up with the water changes or cut back on feedings...but again....that is his issue to worry about...not mine.

There are ways to point out the gaps in someone's argument without being an ass about it.


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## Trigga

^well said gg


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## Ba20

GG i couldnt agree more, but in another thread a memeber just lost a manny due to a ammonia spike, if we can keep ignornant people from advocating misinformation, I believe deaths like that could be avoided

Ignorant - one lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact:

Edited one minute after post due to grammar


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## Grosse Gurke

Ba20 said:


> GG i couldnt agree more, but in another thread a memeber just lost a manny due to a ammonia spike, if we can keep ignornant people from advocating misinformation, I believe deaths like that could be avoided
> 
> Ignorant - one lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact:
> 
> Edited one minute after post due to grammar


Im not saying you are not entitled to your opinion and should feel free to offer it as you see fit....I am simply expressing that all this bickering back and forth does zero for the hobby...and is a detriment to this forum and the fish we are trying to educate people on. Just because someone has a different opinion about a subject doesnt mean they are ignorant. TBP might have extensive knowledge of the cycle...and is deciding to advocate a different method. There is very little in this hobby that I would consider set in stone....so the more we discuss different aspects of this hobby...the more informed we will all be.

More people will absorb what you are saying if you do it in a polite manner. Im telling you&#8230;.the only reason this forum is still around is because there are so many new members to this hobby. If you run them off&#8230;.this forum dies.


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## His Majesty

GG has said it perfectly









way to many people bickering just because they disagree with someones opinion in a hobby where we are constantly learning


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

Ok so we all have posted are opinions and there has been alot of bickering. That being said let me restart this thread, My whole theory is from what I have learned over the years from different sources. Water changes are a way of removing crud dissolved in our water. Cycling is only there to transform ammonia into a less deadly state. Water changes remove a % of dissolved crud in our water that BB can do nothing about, and our filter cant remove then either. The only way to remove this crud is by regular water changes to remove a portion and dilute what remains. The size and how many water changes are up to you and how close you want to get to a low crud level in your tank. My point in this thread was to not piss every one off, but to let every one see there is another option to not having a fully cycled tank. Doing water changes on a new tank will not hinder BB growth but will dilute the the crud that is in the tank. Crud is anything from ammonia,fish waste,uneaten food particles and so on, and our BB cant take this all on by its self. The filters we run do remove larger particles but do little for the dissolved % that remains. So if you think I am wrong thats fine it does not bother me, my ways have worked for years for me. But if you keep up on water changes you should never have an ammonia spike that will kill your fish the only time you can have a spike if from not doing proper maintenance on your tank ie regular cleaning ,water changes,cleaning or replacing dirty filter pads and removing uneaten food after feeding. If you think I am wrong please feel free to correct me, TBP


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## kingkong5xw

cobrafox46 said:


> No matter how many water changes you do on a new uncycled tank.....you will still get an ammonia reading. So I could throw 20 Pygos in a 55 gallon tank and feed them twice a day, do water changes and never get an ammonia reading


im in for the macs,,whats the deal???


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

im in for the macs,,whats the deal???
[/quote]

What ?


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

Just to clear things up I have changed the title from more important than a cycled tank to can help with a uncycled tank. I hop this clears things up a little.


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## cobrafox46

kingkong5xw said:


> No matter how many water changes you do on a new uncycled tank.....you will still get an ammonia reading. So I could throw 20 Pygos in a 55 gallon tank and feed them twice a day, do water changes and never get an ammonia reading


im in for the macs,,whats the deal???
[/quote]
Still adjusting to their tank....hopefully some within the next month. I will add you as a friend so when they come I will PM ya!


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

cobrafox46 said:


> No matter how many water changes you do on a new uncycled tank.....you will still get an ammonia reading. So I could throw 20 Pygos in a 55 gallon tank and feed them twice a day, do water changes and never get an ammonia reading


im in for the macs,,whats the deal???
[/quote]
Still adjusting to their tank....hopefully some within the next month. I will add you as a friend so when they come I will PM ya!
[/quote]

Are they the ones from febsalien that use to be Jmaxs.


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## cobrafox46

Yeah they are.


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## Plowboy

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


> Just to clear things up I have changed the title from more important than a cycled tank to can help with a uncycled tank. I hop this clears things up a little.


^^^ Now I agree completely


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## roccov12345

Just read through this whole thread, needless to say my brain hurts. I'm not one for the "not-cycling" route, its just too inefficient to prove worthy. I'm not going to disagree, I'm sure doing 75-90% water changes everyday could possibly maintain an inhabitant but all you're really doing is prolonging the cycle. Like skunk said, your nitrogen cycle will happen one way or another, all that is being done by using this method is prolonging that time period. You may be able to keep parameters low enough to stop deaths but you are running the risk of other factors like ammonia burn, cloudy eye and weakened immune systems due to the constant stress. If you've never had any of these problems, I would have to assume that your tank was already cycled, if not, do you have the water parameter statistics from day 1 to day xx to prove that this theory does indeed work?

For me, I do a 50% water change once a week (running a heavily planted tank) and even that is tough finding the time to do. I couldn't imagine doing it everyday, plus paying for the water bill.... Remember, if you're adding 79 deg. water to the tank, the good ole hot water heater is chugging along.

I would say, for a new comer, if they add fish prior to the completion of the nitrogen cycle and did not want to lose said fish, yes water changes will help to sustain their lives but will prolong that cycling process.

There is just too much instability to maintain an aquarium like this in the long run especially with piranhas. I, as I'm sure many others, tend to feed their fish heavy during feeding times. Granted I usually feed them 1 to 2 times per week, but that heavy feeding could be just enough to trigger a heavy ammonia / nitrite spike to kill off your stock. I would rather just wait the month, dump my fish in and worry about other issues.


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## CLUSTER ONE

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


> I have been on here alot lately and I see everyone saying how important it is to have you tank cycled before adding fish, you do not have to cycle a tank as long as you do large regular water changes. You can take any number of fish and add the to a new tank with no substrate and no bio filter and Im talking about a bare tank. Water changes dilute dissolved substances from the water. Yes a cycled tank is important if you are not taking proper care of you tank ie water changes. I am just tired of member bashing hobbiest for not going about it the way they want them to. There are people out there with no bio filter and no filter period they just have there tanks set up to a slow constant feed of fresh water. So you can post you feeling on this but there have been studies done that the most important thing you can do is water changes hell with the bacteria hell with a bio filter period. Let me here what you think is more important a cycled tank or water changes a why.....


 of ammonia nitrates and nitrites, no3 is the least toxic. No bacteria means toxins are left in more toxic form as its bacteria that thransfers them to nitates to be removed through water changes or plants. Sure, if you do that many water changes it will work, but anything rotting will be more toxic until lit is removed. I guess it can work, but its much easier to use bio media as it provides circulation and filtration. I dont know if youve heard of it but there are whats called "El natural" tanks with no actual filtration other then plants and gravel bed. Pretty much as long as your removing toxins one way or another, you will be fine, but just relying on water changes imo isnt the best thing to do.

I think a cycled tank is pretty much the main filtration then water changes are just to pick up a small amount missed. water changes only would work fine, but i dont think i would even have that much time to do them and have no clue how to do a drip system. In the end as long as your removing all toxins nessisary id say its a sucsessful method.


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## marilynmonroe

wow just read the whole thread..... when i got my 130 gallon tank 7 or 8 years ago i think i put water in it with two 330 penguin bio power filters , let it run for a week or so, put gold fish in , they lived for a few days, so i figured the tank was good to go. and it was. added piranha with no problems. i just do 15 to 20 percent water changes every Sunday morning, change the carbon once every 2 or 3 months . so to each his own on how they set their tanks up, good topic i like reading everyones input.


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## weerhom

lots of great info in this topic, but unfortunately not by the OP. GG, great analogy.


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## Ægir

Just so everybody reading this topic knows, I did find a somewhat logical answer to this... you can find it by clicking HERE


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