# Genetically Bred Reds?



## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

I'm very familiar with breeding reds as I've done it alot. I'm wondering if my new idea of doing it however will work. I'm dealing reds to the pet shops up here and what I'm doing is taking the 5 or so biggest out of every batch of 200 or so. I'm going to take these p's keep them in another tank and repeat the process until I have a shoal of 50 of them. I will regulate the big ones I take out first with food so I can keep them relative to the ones I will be taking out in the future which will be on a different diet to catch the size of the ones before them. I will then get a breeder pair if not more out of this set of 50 and again do the above steps from their offspring. My line of thinking for this is when they are young you noticeably get fry that grow much much faster then the rest because the eat more. Sooo I take it that the biggest eat more cause they are more aggressive and have stronger genetics in the sense of the strongest survive.

Soooo if I take the best of the best of the best and breed them with the steps above will I not be able to "BREED" the aggressive gene? My hope is to get really aggressive or maybe more aggressive reds then what is currently out there today. I'm planning on doing this over the next 5 to ten years. I know I might be off my rocker but to me it's the same thing that humans have done to every living thing we enjoy. We breed the traits we want and thus this is why I want to do it to reds. People have bred fish together to come up with different fish such as midas fish but I've never heard of anyone doing a specific trait in reds. Has anyone else tried or heard of this???? Am I just spinning my wheels??? Let me know what you guys think!!!!


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## Hemi (Nov 13, 2005)

i hope it works
good luck man


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## SidewalkStalker (Oct 26, 2005)

i don't know that there's an "aggression" gene or anything... from what you said, i gather you're basically picking the biggest / most aggressive fish from each generation and trying to breed them in hopes that you'll end up breeding bigger, badder fish down the road...

i'm thinking of several different ways to give my 2 cents, so here's what's comin off the top of my head in no particular order...

i think there's a lot that goes into how fast a fish grows as a fry... it might be a mistake to assume that the fish who grow quickest as fry do so because they're more aggressive... for example, maybe the yolk sac or whatever you call it was bigger for a particular fish, so it was slightly bigger and faster than it's siblings at a really young age, so it could get to food faster and therefore grew exponentially quicker than other fish... this particular hypothetical fish could grow up to be timid and shy, but grew quicker because of it's better head start, so to speak...

so basically, if you're picking your "breeder" fish based on how quick they grow at a young age, i think you'll be very likely to get fry that tend to grow quickly at a young age... if you want to breed big adults, raise the fish til adulthood and breed the big ones... if you want aggressive adults, raise and observe them, then try to breed the ones you think are the most aggressive...

all that being said, i tend to think tyring to pick breeders based on intial growth rate is a pretty decent idea because raising them until adulthood before thinning them out into breeders and those to be sold would be really expensive in terms of money, time, space etc etc etc...

there's a saying in statistics that "correlation doesn't imply causality" meaning that just because two variables (in this case aggression and initial growth rate) are correlated, doesn't mean that one causes the other... it could be that a third variable causes changes in both variables... (maybe mobility or swimming speed could make it easier to get food and be aggressive etc)

CONCLUSION:

alright, to sort of tie it up... everything above is worth thinking about IMO...

i think selective breeding is a great idea... i don't know how many generations it would take to see any noticable change, but getting the snowball rolling can't hurt... i'm by no means an expert at any of this, but i think people can get noticable color changes in flowerhorn cichlids and guppies within a couple of generations... however, i'd think that the temperment of the fish would take a LOOONG time to change drastically... there's some quote from Jurassic park about you can't undo a million years of evolution overnight or somethin to that effect...

basically, yes, i think you can selectively breed for certain traits, but i think you'll be more successful breeding for size and overall health rather than aggression... hopefully your big, healthy great great great great great great grandchildren of your current fish will be aggressive SOB's!!!!!


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

I've though about doing that with Convicts, since I've seen ones that were 6in or more. I don't know if breeding big on big would eventually produce supercons, but the idea has been tempting since they tend to be tougher per size than many other cichlids. Someone posted one on Predatory fish once that looked like a Midas.


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

sounds like a good plan to me. I hope you give it a try and let us know how it works


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## B. Rodgers (Jan 20, 2005)

Yeah Crosshair! Do It! I'll Have Caribe and Piraya Coming Your Way Shortly, So Get Ready To Do It With Them Also!


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Good luck, let us know how it goes!!


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## taylorhedrich (Mar 2, 2005)

Very interesting read. I encourage you to try it Crosshair. I bet nobody can tell you it won't work, because to my knowledge it hasn't been done before. If it doesn't work, at least you had the joy of breeding red bellies and gaining experience in rearing fry and everything else for 5-10 years.

I'm sure you will keep us updated right? I might not be here in 10 years, but I'm sure the other people here will want to know how it's going.








~Taylor~


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

I really honestly believe this could work,but IMO you should devirsify the bloodline as much as possible,for as long as possible.There is alot of info on the web about selective breeding in fish and problems that arise from this method.
Before you commit to such a long term experiment you should read on it as much as possible.You wouldn't want to be in year 7 and find out you messed up in the first 6 months.
Great Idea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

why wouldnt it?

sounds resonable


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## I-Eat-My-Master (Feb 19, 2006)

I agree with Fry, I think you would have to go from a larger shoal of more than 50 to go 5 - 10 years down the road like you want. For the diversity that, I say this only because a population under 100 or around that 'number' is considered endagered... because the species doesn't have a large enough gene pool to choose from, You could get possibly these 'super aggressive reds' but the chancers are higher that you'll get 3 eyed non swimming growing an extra fin Ps


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## Round Head (Sep 26, 2005)

Here is my $00.02
I would separate the genders and to pick out your most aggressive candidates.
Breed them and do the same with their offspring.
I would inbreed (brother x sister), and line breed(daughter to father, grand daughter to grandfather, niece to uncle, etc...)
Keep records of your fish brooders such as tags, fin clippings, or gill punches.
These methods and their combinations will allow you endless identifications your breeding program.
With good records, you can build a pedigree so that you can select certain individuals within the family to prevent genetic defects while maintaining a tight gene pool.
All said and done, you probably need a hatchery setting with about a hundred or more large tanks.
Then your final results would be a solo red that will not tolerate anything in the same water and a guaranty finger chasser. Heck, they will probably be toothless due to biting on the glass and rocks as they see any moving object.

Good luck.


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## bmpower007 (Feb 11, 2005)

Try it, maybe you can dig up an albino Red which will be the first with pics.


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## smurf (Sep 3, 2005)

This is a very interesting read. Glad somebody is willing to try something which has been done to a lot of other species.

But what about using wild caught reds too? In my opinion using some wild ones will mix the gene's. Also a tank can never get to the degree that a wild fish has to get in order of "aggresiveness" to survive.

Just my 2 cnts.

Greetz,
Smurf.


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

all i can say is wicked , wicked, wicked i hope it works for ya mon! its fun to play scientist i think ,,lol or god,,,! what ever ya wanta call it. on my hobby bird farm i got going iam workin on 2 projects #1. i am inbreeding a small breed of duck called, call ducks the orignal plan back in 1930's was to make a breed of duck that can fit in the hunters pockets till thay get to the duck hunting spot ware thay were let quack there heads off to call the wild ducks to the hunter,,
and project #2 i got a thang called a sport in my red golden phesant male he has a out of place yellow patch on his side i plan in time to find a yellow golden phesant female<--witch is a mutation of the red golden phesant any ways, to breed to him in hopes to have another sport pop up in my mind i got a picture of a half yellow/red golden phesant ----> i guess once ya get in to a hobby for so long ya get boried of it and gotta come up with more thangs to expand ya projects -->expert<--that is the out come,,,, sorry for ramblin i just love sicence.


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## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

Thanks for the different ideas and support guys! As to SidewalkStalker I agree with your opinion however all I have to go by is size right now. Basic physics to me imply that larger is more aggressive on a one scale or another. You could have good genetics and grow faster yes but growing faster means you will need more food to sustain faster growth. Actually, now that I think about it, the faster they grow would be directly linked to food intake especially when young. If you grow faster you need more food thus you will hunt/scour more. I realize they are seperate genetics but in my eyes one controls the other. If I'm flawed in my line of thinking please provide your line of thinking







As to starting out with a smaller control number i.e. 10 instead of 50? well I'm starting with 50 cause I KNOW I will get at least one breeder pair out of 50, hopefully more but I know one for sure. I will then repeat with that pair of red's and from the stock 50 if another pair breeds I will thus break them away into their own tank and do the same with their fry. At this point I will no longer select 5 but 4, and slowly repeat this process until I get to the 1. When I get to one I plan on being very scientific which many of you will think is cruel so please.....hear me out and see the scientific approach of this. When I get to selection of 1 I'm A. going to pick the biggest one and B. Starve them for a bit and let natural selection take it's course. Afterall, I view them as specimens in a very very long project and I know I will have fatalities. When starved the best of the best shall remain as well as some lucky ones. Either way I'm getting brains, and braun. After this is done and I repeat the steps I will continue doing this last one for perhaps a couple of years??? Who knows! And yes Brandon! I plan on doing this with our CARIBE which are on the way soon I hear







I'm not going to say if, I'll say WHEN I get this breeding selection completed I will sell these aggressive guys extremely cheap. I've always been fascinated with p's among other things and if I could breed a strain that fits the images we had of red's when we were kids then so be it. I would love to flood the market with reds that aren't skittish and are very hostile. Call it my little contribution the world and making our favorite pets live up to there Expectations!!!!


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## Round Head (Sep 26, 2005)

CROSSHAIR223 said:


> Thanks for the different ideas and support guys! As to SidewalkStalker I agree with your opinion however all I have to go by is size right now. Basic physics to me imply that larger is more aggressive on a one scale or another. You could have good genetics and grow faster yes but growing faster means you will need more food to sustain faster growth. Actually, now that I think about it, the faster they grow would be directly linked to food intake especially when young. If you grow faster you need more food thus you will hunt/scour more. I realize they are seperate genetics but in my eyes one controls the other. If I'm flawed in my line of thinking please provide your line of thinking
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You must understand the root of aggression.
I am not saying that I know, but it is just my guess based on what we currently have been breeding animals for aggressive behavior, ie. fighting chicken, siamese fighting fish, Brahma Bulls, and guard dogs.
I would think territorial instinct by aggression relates to domination.
With that said, I think a tank setting with unique landscape and structure can promote territorial behavior. This way you are able to pick out the most territorial specimen easier.

Good luck.


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

very interesting read indeed....I hope this works for you.


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## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

Round Head said:


> Thanks for the different ideas and support guys! As to SidewalkStalker I agree with your opinion however all I have to go by is size right now. Basic physics to me imply that larger is more aggressive on a one scale or another. You could have good genetics and grow faster yes but growing faster means you will need more food to sustain faster growth. Actually, now that I think about it, the faster they grow would be directly linked to food intake especially when young. If you grow faster you need more food thus you will hunt/scour more. I realize they are seperate genetics but in my eyes one controls the other. If I'm flawed in my line of thinking please provide your line of thinking
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You must understand the root of aggression.
I am not saying that I know, but it is just my guess based on what we currently have been breeding animals for aggressive behavior, ie. fighting chicken, siamese fighting fish, Brahma Bulls, and guard dogs.
I would think territorial instinct by aggression relates to domination.
With that said, I think a tank setting with unique landscape and structure can promote territorial behavior. This way you are able to pick out the most territorial specimen easier.

Good luck.
[/quote]

True true and since I do not with fish this is why the last phase will simply be survival of the fittest. May the best genetics win kinda thing.


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## geostomp (Apr 8, 2006)

look at the difference in dogs we have. Piranhas are just starting to be tank breed, the possabilitys are endless. we could have a guard piranha, a sheep piranha, a lap piranha.....ect. This forum is the best place for breeder cooperation in selective breeding. I'd be glad to give up my fastest meanest growing piranha out of a spawn to help a fellow breeder outcross. Whats up with an albino?? Somebody get on that. maybe alot of imbreeding will induce alot of mutants producing a somewhat desirable trait that can be isolated. Any way, I'm still on my way to getting eggs so...........


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