# Cross Breeding Part2



## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

There has been a lot of talk about the shoaling capabilities of the SB_spilo, and cross breeding piranhas&#8230; With all this controversy I have decided to explore the possibility of shoaling the SB_Spilo with a S.Maculatus breeding colony&#8230;The first spilo was added Friday November 7,2003 and has appeared to be somewhat excepted&#8230;On Sunday November 17,2003 an additional SB_spilo was added&#8230; He survived the night and sustained no fin nips&#8230; All fish have now turned very dark brown to almost black&#8230;

This is an experiment I choose the share with the forum as it progresses&#8230;When it comes to breeding serrasalmus species, you must have a paradox in thinking&#8230; You must be optimistic that you will have success. But, you must also be analytical to the facts about the fish. At any given time the fish my reject the captive environment, and go on a killing spree&#8230;The fish are wild caught and not accustomed to such confined living quarters&#8230;In the case of my experiment the S.Maculatus could reject the newly added spilo species and dine on them&#8230;

In the previous paragraph basis has been given, to support more failure than success with this experiment. I choose to proceed, and document all findings&#8230;Many people have posted about having mixed pygo colonies, and reds breeding within the colony&#8230; There was no inter-breeding or other species spawning&#8230; From what I have researched and been informed, there is a tremendous similarity in S.Maculatus and Gold spilo, but the SpiloCF is closer to the Rhom&#8230; Please correct me if I am wrong Frank&#8230;This may also make inter-breeding impossible&#8230; But we shall see&#8230; As for shoaling the SB_spilo&#8230; I think it can be done&#8230;Ash the fish catcher was so interested in the shoaling possibility, he personally came to see the fish in the same tank&#8230;All further postings will be on progress of the experiment&#8230;

Ps&#8230; This originated from another link
Beginning link

Those curious about water conditions I have cumulated an average from several South American rivers&#8230;

PH>>>>>>>> 6.5
Hardness>>> 5 dK
Nitrate and Nitrites 0>>>>> I am trying that new Amquel +
Standard water changes&#8230; Giving fish time to truly acclimate to the surrounding environment, and hopefully build some kind of tolerance for each other


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## MikeH. (Sep 22, 2003)

Good luck with that. Keep us posted.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Well it has been approximately 3 weeks since the fist SB_spilo was added to the maculatus colony he is still there in one piece&#8230; It has been nearly 2 weeks since the second SB_spilo has been added; he is also in 1 piece&#8230; Some of the Maculatus have sustained what I consider more than normal fin nippage&#8230; If this is from the 2 Strawberry spilo's, it is unknown. From what I have witnessed the larger one appears to be shoaling closely with the S.Maculatus&#8230; The smaller strawberry guy hides but is there, and feeds with the group&#8230;
As of now, there can be no conclusion to if the SB_spilo can be shoaled. There appears to be substantial tolerance for the other fish&#8230;Only time will answer the shoaling question. No additional nips have appeared to the SB_spilo's&#8230; The SB_spilo's appear to be more aggressive, and first to feeder fish when added&#8230; They all take shrimp, turkey breast, and beef heart&#8230; Turkey breast is new.. Since it is Thanksgiving they had a feast today&#8230;Attempting to induce spawning again&#8230; Trying to duplicate the dry season 100%....

1 Water level is diminishing.
2 PH level is increasing
3 Temperature is increasing..
4 TDS is increasing along with General hardness.
5 Water Clarity is diminishing daily&#8230;

There is no guarantee on a spawn or an inter-breeding&#8230; I just chose to share this experiment with those who are interested on the forum..


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> Well it has been approximately 3 weeks since the fist SB_spilo was added to the maculatus colony he is still there in one piece&#8230; It has been nearly 2 weeks since the second SB_spilo has been added; he is also in 1 piece&#8230; Some of the Maculatus have sustained what I consider more than normal fin nippage&#8230; If this is from the 2 Strawberry spilo's, it is unknown. From what I have witnessed the larger one appears to be shoaling closely with the S.Maculatus&#8230; The smaller strawberry guy hides but is there, and feeds with the group&#8230;
> As of now, there can be no conclusion to if the SB_spilo can be shoaled. There appears to be substantial tolerance for the other fish&#8230;Only time will answer the shoaling question. No additional nips have appeared to the SB_spilo's&#8230; The SB_spilo's appear to be more aggressive, and first to feeder fish when added&#8230; They all take shrimp, turkey breast, and beef heart&#8230; Turkey breast is new.. Since it is Thanksgiving they had a feast today&#8230;Attempting to induce spawning again&#8230; Trying to duplicate the dry season 100%....
> 
> 1 Water level is diminishing.
> ...


These methods I use for simulating the dry season my not be 100% accuarate... I myself have never been to South Amreica to see the rivers and streams, but plan to go there over the next 3 months...

From books and internet search engines, the above water change parameters we created. They have worked in the past... This forum is not about reds... Such a drastic water chemistry shift is not requred....Nate and Hollywood are your guys for reds...I only spawned them twice, and wanted something very challeging... Breeding discus fish is what got me deeply into water parameter modifications, and large water changes...

It is Sunday, so there will be more pics of the colony tonight... Got to clean the glass and more water changes...

Here is a link to a cool site that has methods of spawning many species of South American fish.... It can be ver informative, and possibly lay a basis for experimenting with other species of fish

Methods of breeding fish


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Good stuff and great posts SC!


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Here are some pictures to verify the 2 species tolerating one another in the same 100 gallon Tank.

*These are pictures of the 1st StrawberryBannana spilo and the Maculatus Colony. He have been there 3 weeks and 2 days as of today*


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

*Here are pics of the second Strawberry Bannana spilo*

He has been in the tank 2 weeks


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

*This one was hard but here are pics of both Strawberry guys together with the colony*


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

It has only been 3 weeks since this experiment begun... But so far it appears the Strawberry Spilo's can tolerate each other enough to shoal... Time will give the final answer...All fish play the typical game that serrasalmus species do "*Tag and take a piece of fin"*

There apears to be no damage to any fish other than fin nips.. No bites in to the flesh... Diet is very diversified with a minimum of 30 feeders in the tank at all times... That is all for now...

Still attempting to simulate the start of the dry season... This can bring forth some aggression over the next few weeks...

That is all for now


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## Death in #'s (Apr 29, 2003)

dam sweet pics and update


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Death in # said:


> dam sweet pics and update


 Thank you for the input... I was starting to think no one was interested in the experiment... You and Xenon are the only people who posted on this topic...I will continue with Bi-weekly updates unless there is a spawn or someting tragic happens...

But it looks very promising about the SB_spilo having shoaling qualities...


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## boxer (Sep 11, 2003)

i'm very interested in this i just don't reply with any positive comments unless i have questions or something useful to say, don't wanna post for nothing but than again positive messages help i guess


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## boxer (Sep 11, 2003)

also, with emulating the dry season, don't u reduce the food and let nature take its course. it'll be a pain to see a casualty but that's another factor is less food in less water.


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## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

this thread just caught my eye....looking forward to updates!


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## Death in #'s (Apr 29, 2003)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> Death in # said:
> 
> 
> > dam sweet pics and update
> ...










i tried that and now i only have one sb spilo


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

boxer said:


> also, with emulating the dry season, don't u reduce the food and let nature take its course. it'll be a pain to see a casualty but that's another factor is less food in less water.


 Yes this is very true&#8230;There was a period of 2 weeks my fish didn't get any food. I don't advise anyone to make their piranhas go in shallow dirty water for 2 weeks&#8230;I have recently received another document explaining the dry season in the aquarium. These techniques are almost identical to mine. Almost in that the temperature changes from my experiments to this guys are very different.

For safety reason I don't share my dry season methods with many. It can definitely kill your fish by starvation, or heighten aggression. But these things occur naturally in the wild. Until all the parameters are sorted, and tested repeably, there can be no elimination of processes.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

SC, is there any way we can get this in article format when it is completed. It is great stuff!


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Xenon said:


> SC, is there any way we can get this in article format when it is completed. It is great stuff!


 No problem there... I got tons op pics, and a killer database of perameters taken bi-daily... When complete I will get it to you, and you can proof read and adjust if you see fit...

Good Ole Ash has got me beat...







He has a tank with Mannys,spilos, maculatus, exodons, highback rhoms, and possible irritans all shoaling...







...

But it is cool... I have seen the tank, and call it the miniature Amazon river :nod:


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

so in your opinion are our shoaling "rules" BS?


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Xenon said:


> so in your opinion are our shoaling "rules" BS?


 I would not say the rules are BS&#8230; By breeding fish I have acquired many good contacts for fish. With these new fish I experiment. There are too many variable now.

1.	The fish have their individual personalities.
2.	They are rebelling from a captive environment.
3.	Many new stresses can promote violence

But you and all P-fury members will know my success or failures. It appears that fish can develop a tolerance for other serrasalmus species. Perhaps identical water parameters play a vital role. My experiments have not run long enough to give you and accurate answer. But at one time the world was considered flat, and sailing over the horizon would yield falling off the earth. I somewhat challenge the no shoaling rule, as Columbus challenged the earth being flat. Just to find out for myself. It could be cruel to the fish, but on the other hand could shed some light on unanswered questions.

The personality of the fish plays the biggest role&#8230; Take S.Geryi for instance. They shoal naturally. I have seen a shoal of them where one had to be removed immediately. Just a mean SOB!!!! The reverse effect may be true for other species such as elongotus, rhoms, spilo's, ect. There appear to be more and more posting with golds, spilo's, and macs shoaling. This is factual proof of others shoaling serrasalmus species. When I read about needing super huge tanks to breed fish??? Another thing that is not true. I personally know a person who bred Cariba in a 90 gallon??? He won't tell me how, but he knows I will appreciate it more to discover it myself.

There were a lot of hard core rules laid down about piranhas, and they have never been challenged or changed. One of these is shoaling mixed colonies of serras. I am truly glad Ash has his tank to share with the forum. I personally saw it&#8230;. Un-believable. 50 macs, 2 strawberry_spilo's, 100 exodons, and unknown number of spiloCF, and manuelli. All in a 180 gallon tank. There is no kill or be killed attitude. The fish shoal, and have feeding frenzy's together&#8230; What a site to see&#8230;

*Only time can answer this BS shoaling question.*


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

The main problem I see with this experiment are 2 things:

1 your fish are tank raised vs wild fish (which may be farm raised in S.A.).

It remains uncertain (to me at least), that these fish (both) are possibly the same species since tank raised fish breed out their natural colors over time and of course body shape will also sustain changes, much like P. nattereri and seen differences between wild vs tank.

So while it maybe entertaining to read this information, it proves little particularly if both are the same species (which I suspect) but look different because of what I wrote above.

Otherwise, its a good post and topic


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

hastatus said:


> The main problem I see with this experiment are 2 things:
> 
> 1 your fish are tank raised vs wild fish (which may be farm raised in S.A.).
> 
> ...


 Hmmm... I thought that it had been confirmed that the SB_Spilo was a spilopleura species from Peru, and the S.Macualtus was different... Or is it a locality thing??? It does appear that the SB_spilo's are getting the red to return to the cheek area. This is something I have never seen on my fish @ all...

I am 100% in agreement with the overal body shape being different, including the nose...

Glad you jump on this topic, I was getting confused on a direction to take it.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> serrasalmus_collector Posted on Dec 3 2003, 04:43 PM
> 
> Hmmm... I thought that it had been confirmed that the SB_Spilo was a spilopleura species from Peru, and the S.Macualtus was different...
> 
> ...


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > serrasalmus_collector Posted on Dec 3 2003, 04:43 PM
> >
> > Hmmm... I thought that it had been confirmed that the SB_Spilo was a spilopleura species from Peru, and the S.Macualtus was different...
> >
> > ...


 Wow!!! I hate to be the guy always bugging you&#8230; But I have another question. Are there any links, or books that go in depth with the 5 separate species within the Spilopleura complex??? This information would be very valuable to me&#8230; I have spent months studying the fish and have no answer. Perhaps in the future they can subcategorize them&#8230;

Ex. Spilopleura complex variation 1, Spilopleura complex variation 2. Perhaps this is something that can be done on the board&#8230;It may be painstaking in the beginning, but the end result will help everyone with classification. I will purchase the books if they can be obtainable&#8230;

Or even if it is a locality thing they could be names Spilopleura Northern, Southern, Eastern, Western and central variations&#8230;

Ps any help or direction you can point me in actually subcategorizing the complex would be greatly appreciated&#8230;


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Do an internet search for this material (its available in PDF).

PORT, J. I. R. ; NAKAYAMA, C. M.; FELDBERG, And 2002. Comparative cytogenetic study of five piranha species (Serrasalmus, Serrasalminae) from the Amazon Basin. Genetica.

and:

CENTOFANTE, L.; PORT, J.I.R. ; FELDBERG, And 2002. Chromosomal polymorphism in Serrasalmus spilopleura Kner, 1858 (Characidae, Serrasalminae) from Central Amazon Basin. Caryologia , 55(1):41-49.


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## MStiers (Mar 21, 2003)

This is an interesting post. I look forward to reading more updates.


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## HighOctane (Jan 2, 2003)

So how is the experiment going?


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

All fish are still together. No luck in breeing from any thing. So I went to the extreme. All fish are now experiencing a rather harsh dry season simulation in the home aquarium. 1 pair of red throated spilos were also added to the colony. That makes a total of 12 spilo/spiloCF in a 100 gallon tank... Looks like they all shoal fine....

But they aren't to happy with my simulation....

I honestly have better luck shoaling serras than pygos... I lost a wild red in my piraya mixed red shoal... Luck or passive fish I am uncertain. But that makes 8 captives, and 4 wild caughts. Tolerating each other some what....

Wish Santa had brought me a 220 gallon to expand this project.


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## boxer (Sep 11, 2003)

sorry to digress but.. exactly how much does it cost to keep 30feeders in the tank minimum? i know my rbps were pigs and would take that out in 1-2 days and it would cost me $1-3 in 2 days. but now since the leader of the pack was eaten and so were the aggressive cichlids, the super rbp decides when everyone eats by taking the 1st bites and than the rest of the shoal jumps in. i tried leaving a lot of feeders in my pygo tank to calm the tension but they disappear as well as the tankmates.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

boxer said:


> sorry to digress but.. exactly how much does it cost to keep 30feeders in the tank minimum? i know my rbps were pigs and would take that out in 1-2 days and it would cost me $1-3 in 2 days. but now since the leader of the pack was eaten and so were the aggressive cichlids, the super rbp decides when everyone eats by taking the 1st bites and than the rest of the shoal jumps in. i tried leaving a lot of feeders in my pygo tank to calm the tension but they disappear as well as the tankmates.


 There is a store in the Metro-Detroit area called Jans Tropical fish. They sell feeders 30/ $1.00&#8230; So about fifteen bucks a week would cover them and my Geryi Shoal. But now the entire tank has shifted. Only about 3 fish a day and extremely acidic, and very hard. Everything is decaying and spoiling in the water. The really good thing abut dry season simulations, is all my snails will die&#8230;.LOL!!!


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

One of the Strawberry Banana Spilo was eaten. Everything was eaten up past the gills&#8230; No reason to why. But the other SB_Spilo appears to be still shoaling. I am so bummed. Its bit biggest one that became dinners&#8230;.

This fish did appear to have a continued aggressive side. I didn't see it, or it would have been stopped. I wonder if the S.Maculatus got fed up and attacked as a group. This is the second fish they took out. I had a Rhom last 4 months, and same thing

















Just a small set back... All fish have personalities, this one was directly out of the wild. Perhaps adapting to captivity was the problem. Who know's but I'm real bummed. They started laying eggs again... I was hopping the SB_spilo's would mimic the breeding...


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## MStiers (Mar 21, 2003)

:sad: Oh my. I am sorry to hear this. Keep us updated on the reaction of teh shoal as a whole.


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## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

Keep on pressing. Good luck.


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## ALLIGATORMEX (Aug 28, 2003)

i still got a few pairs of spilos cf hope they can get me some fry .. hehehe... also got one tank with 4 spilos cf for over2 months none has been killed....... the biggest pair has been there for over 10 months agoo... i will keep you posed

VROOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Alligator great looking fish.. No noticable fin nippage... Very impressive...









My red throats in in a 29 with a barrier, going through a dry season simulation... I bet when I re-introduce them.. Violence, and aggression will be off the hook...LOL...

Got to love piranhas... The are the ultimate


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## ALLIGATORMEX (Aug 28, 2003)

I ADDED A 6 INCHER WITH THOSE TWO U SAW... THE BIGGER IS 8 OR 9 INCHES AND THE OTHER IS 5 INCHES.. THE 6 INCHER IS THE BADDES FIH IVE SEEN SO FAR... I HAD HIM IN A 140 GALLONS WITH SOME NMATTS AND SOME CARIBES AND NOBODY COULD f*ck HIM HE HAD FIGHT FOR EVERY DAMN PYGO IN THE TANK LMFAO.... BUT WHEN I ADDED THE 6 INCHER WITH THOSE TOO HE FUCKED THE 5 INCHER FIN.. SO I HAD MOVE THE 5 INCHER ALONE FOR THE MOMET BECAUSE IF NOT THIS 6 INCHER WILL EAT HIM HE ALSO FUCKD THE 8 INCHER IM ABOUT TO GET A 20 GALLONS FOR THE MOKENT FOR THIS 6 INCHER DAMN HE IS BAD..... AND IM GOING TO MOVE AGAIN THE 5 AND 8 INCHER ALONE ....

HERES A PIC OF THIS 6 INCHER HANGING AT ONE SIDE OF THE 8 INCHER DAMN THIS GUY IS THE DIABLO .. LMFAAOO


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## Salvinni (May 18, 2003)

Isnt this SB Spilo the same fish that aquascape had identified by Frank.
Which was identified as a true Medinia.
Im sure that spelling is wrong.


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## mantis (May 16, 2003)

awesome work SC!

your experiments are captivating


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## ItWasnValentine (Feb 15, 2004)

Interesting stuff. Good luck.


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## BAD ANDY (Oct 31, 2003)

Salvinni said:


> Isnt this SB Spilo the same fish that aquascape had identified by Frank.
> Which was identified as a true Medinia.
> Im sure that spelling is wrong.


 nope the sb spilo is more like the purple diamond spilo almost every that i have talked to that has bought one had the red go away. Here is what mine looks like now.










SC: Have you put the sb spilo in a pygo schoal yet? if so was it successful?


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## Piranha_Adept (Feb 11, 2004)

BAD ANDY said:


> Salvinni said:
> 
> 
> > Isnt this SB Spilo the same fish that aquascape had identified by Frank.
> ...


Looks like he did. I belive this colony lasted 8 or 9 months untill he split them up. This is the only link I could find of pics. I don't think he still thinks reds and golds can inter-breed. So let's not rehash the topic. Just see the pics.

Maculatus and reds.


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## Hypergenix (Dec 17, 2003)

awesome Experiment
sorry to hear one of your spilo was eaten


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## You (Sep 22, 2003)

great experiment good luck


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## adamc07 (Oct 23, 2003)

Impressive, best of luck


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