# Possible Rbp Albino?



## zackmorrisl

I had posted this guy for sale but I'm not to sure what to think of it. A member on here suggested I start a topic on it so here ya go. This fish seems to display certain characteristics of an albino animal. This fish seems to lack certain color characteristics that its take mates have. I have noticed this lack of color in younger fish but have never seen anything like this on an older fish. The fish appears to look sick or stressed out but they are perfectly healthy. 
If you examine the fins and tail they seem to be transparent and in photo 2 you can see right through its back. Photo one was taken during the day and I find it is not as accurate in terms of color as photo 2 which was taken during the evening. Both photos were taken without the use of flash. As mentioned by opefe, these fish do occur rarely. I'm not an expert on the matter, I just thought some of you might be interested and I am interested to hear what others have to say.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Thats not even close to albino lol.....

This is albino..


----------



## zackmorrisl

according to opefe this is albino as well. I've used this photo as a comparison as well as the info provided on that website.

http://opefe.com/images/spotlessnattereri3.jpg

for something to be considered albino it does not have to be super pale. Here are some other albino animals.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Albinism - is a congenital disorder characterized by the complete or partial absence of pigment in the skin, hair and eyes due to absence or defect of an enzyme involved in the production of melanin. Albinism results from inheritance of recessive gene alleles.

That piranha looks exactly like the ones in my tank..


----------



## zackmorrisl

Please post pictures, I've never seen P's with see through backs and clear tails.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Im looking at your picture. Your piranha has black on the tail and I can not see through its back.

Anyway you want it to be albino that way you can fetch more cash for it. But FYI anyone with a brain would pay you less seeing as albinism is a DEFECT meaning it is not good.


----------



## Guest

Thing is OPEFE says it isn't albino.


> A hobbyist several years ago purchased a purported albino piranha (see images above). This fish while interesting does not appear to have the recessive gene that creates albinism in species. Nor does it exhibit the pink eye associated with such albinism. It could be called a "golden piranha" based on its color alone.


TBH I can't see your claims to it having see through fins and back, though I do notice a lack of pigment in some areas.


----------



## Smoke

Doesn't look albino.. but if you believe he is seriously lacking color, then try to breed it... raise the offspring, find some with even lighter color etc. and raise and breed them and so on and so on... maybe in a few years you'll have something interesting...


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Smoke said:


> Doesn't look albino.. but if you believe he is seriously lacking color, then try to breed it... raise the offspring, find some with even lighter color etc. and raise and breed them and so on and so on... maybe in a few years you'll have something interesting...


Thats a bad idea. Thats spreading weak genes. Each generation would get weaker and weaker.


----------



## Smoke

Hey man I was trying to give hope of a possibility







I never said it was a good idea


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Hahahaha


----------



## zackmorrisl

Zanni you have some issues you obviously need to see a doctor about. I would prefer if you stay out of my topics since you have nothing appropriate to say. I don't mind to be told I am wrong and I dont mind being corrected but your just a little sh!t that really needs to get a life.

This fish is for sale to anyone who has interest, I am getting a shoal of cariba and need my shoal gone. I do not want a premium for this fish, I'd rather sell the shoal together I just think he is pretty unique and would be great for someone looking for P's that are a little out of the ordinary.

Traveller..you have seen other P's like this before? The pink color along the top of its back is light passing through its flesh. Its not transparent like a piece of glass but I have found that in person you " can see right through him" His tail and the fin on his back do not have any black in them except the tip of the tail. Of what I have seen with RBP they all have 2 stripes of black on the tail, the first stripe being located where the tail and body meet. As for the fin on his back It has no black whatsoever.



Johnny_Zanni said:


> Doesn't look albino.. but if you believe he is seriously lacking color, then try to breed it... raise the offspring, find some with even lighter color etc. and raise and breed them and so on and so on... maybe in a few years you'll have something interesting...


Thats a bad idea. Thats spreading weak genes. Each generation would get weaker and weaker.
[/quote]

So now you think this fish has a week gene, a moment ago you said it looks exactly the same as your RBP? You have a tank of weak gene RBP?


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

All my posts were appropriate to the topic. Don't ask the question if you not going to like the answers.

5 of my 6 do have weak genes cause they are captive bred.









Actually im sorry I should have rephrased it. Your piranha looks like mine do when I am doing a water change stressing the crap out of them.


----------



## memento

I don't think it's an albino.
It's true albinos don't have to be completely white, like the albino Pantherophis guttatus shows. But since there are yellow colored specimen (referred to as P.nattereri "ternetzi") you might assume that if there were albinos, they would have the faintest pigmentation. So yellow, of even fainter. Yours is red though, what makes me doubt it's an albino.
About breeding them... albinism is as far as I am aware in a recessive gene, so breeding it with a normal red would only result in either :
PP x pp : 0% chance of getting another "albino" or
Pp x pp : 50% chance of getting another "albino".
Sums it to 25%.

About the hyaline tail : it does seem to be very hyaline, what only suggests there is little pigment in it.

Have a look at the caudal fin under a microscope :










It shows that usually, the rays are very pigmented, while between them there is less pigment.
So a hyaline part, just lacks most pigmentation.

If I remember correctly, tails that have been severely bitten and grew back, also can show a lack of pigmentation.



Johnny_Zanni said:


> 5 of my 6 do have weak genes cause they are captive bred.


And how do you know that has effected the genes ?


----------



## zackmorrisl

I dont find this to be appropriate "Anyway you want it to be albino that way you can fetch more cash for it. But FYI anyone with a brain would pay you less seeing as albinism is a DEFECT meaning it is not good. "

Your looking for trouble bud.

As for your comment "thats how mine look after a water change" I think I said yesterday in our previous discussion that he looks like a stressed out P, but he stays like that all the time. Even when my P's are stressed they're tails still have black and they dont go transparent I think he is pretty ugly in all honesty but if he were an albino I think he would be worth more then your normal RBP due to the rareness.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Mememto its known that captive bred nattereri are significantly weaker when it comes to genetics then wild nattereri

Zack I don't look for trouble. But if you feel its coming then I will welcome it.


----------



## zackmorrisl

memento said:


> 5 of my 6 do have weak genes cause they are captive bred.


And how do you know that has effected the genes ?
[/quote]

Thank you for that intelligent response. This is kind of explanation I was hoping to get from the community. As for the red pigment I think that is mostly contributed to the camera itself, in low light my camera's metering system shines a red light which can alter the photo slightly. It does have red on the anal fin but the belly is very faint, photo's 2 and 3 are more accurate as mentioned above. I only thought it might be albino after reading opefe's paragraph on the matter. Maybe I miss interpreted his findings but I though I found some very similar characteristics.


----------



## memento

Johnny_Zanni said:


> Thank you for that intelligent response. This is kind of explanation I was hoping to get from the community. As for the red pigment I think that is mostly contributed to the camera itself, in low light my camera's metering system shines a red light which can alter the photo slightly. It does have red on the anal fin but the belly is very faint, photo's 2 and 3 are more accurate as mentioned above. I only thought it might be albino after reading opefe's paragraph on the matter. Maybe I miss interpreted his findings but I though I found some very similar characteristics.


If we are talking about the same paragraph, it just rejected the thought that it was an albino.
The caudal fin and the anal fin still show a lot of red, so I don't think it's an albino.


----------



## zackmorrisl

Johnny_Zanni said:


> Mememto its known that captive bred nattereri are significantly weaker when it comes to genetics then wild nattereri
> 
> Zack I don't look for trouble. But if you feel its coming then I will welcome it.


Dont f*ck with Zanni, Feefa. I'll drive around Mississauga until I find you and then chuck an egg at you, then drive off full speed.

I've actually heard different.
Some people believe that Piranhas born in captive are more aggressive and have trait's that make them stronger for aquarium life. It is believed by some that they are less skittish as well.
Reversing the theory though might have opposite results...meaning that captive bred fish might not have as great a chance for survival in the wild.

But that could have nothing to do with genes.
I am not an expert


----------



## Piranha_man

Okay so anywho... it's not an albino.
Question answered.


----------



## Guest

Hope you asked Combi before you posted his pics on here


----------



## memento

Traveller said:


> Hope you asked Combi before you posted his pics on here


I asked and I said no. But as usual, I do not listen to myself


----------



## BRUNER247

JZ just bummed cause you have something he doesn't have.& he has been acting like a spoiled brat lately. Anyhow the rbp is lighter than most but its no albino. I've had some even lighter than yours in my batches of babies. I don't know where he figures that fish is weak in health or genetics.even if it was a albino it wouldn't have weak genetics. I'd like to breed that fish with one of my vanilla rbp & see what happens. Can't tell me some keepers wouldn't want albino or even light colored rbp. I'm sure some will whine & cry like some are already but other like myself would love it. Weak genes? Lmmfao! Captive bred have weak genes huh?lmao.


----------



## Guest

> Traveller..you have seen other P's like this before? The pink color along the top of its back is light passing through its flesh. Its not transparent like a piece of glass but I have found that in person you " can see right through him" His tail and the fin on his back do not have any black in them except the tip of the tail. Of what I have seen with RBP they all have 2 stripes of black on the tail, the first stripe being located where the tail and body meet. As for the fin on his back It has no black whatsoever.


I have seen fish in general with similar defects that seem to be caused mostly by bad tank conditions. With RBP's I only noticed one fish that showed similar traits to what your describing though it was a juvie and it looked pretty sickly with signs of visible ick on fins, I have no idea to what ever happened to it and how it developed if it ever survived.

Perhaps your pictures aren't able to show clearly what your describing as in some of the pictures it looks like the lighting is adding to the effect as it's coming solely from above the fish.

Either way, you have some nice looking fish, but IMHO I can't see any sign of actual albinism in the pictures you've shown.



memento said:


> Hope you asked Combi before you posted his pics on here


I asked and I said no. But as usual, I do not listen to myself








[/quote]
Combi? lol
I could of sworn I saw you had the CombiChrist username on here too


----------



## memento

The theory of weaker genes in captive bred are based on the assumption that chances on inbreeding have increased. However they are so common bred, that chances of having a breeding couple that are closely related, are decreasing.
I am not sure this has ever been thoroughly researched (actually I doubt), so stating "it is known" is imo a confusion, for without research, it all is just an assumption.


----------



## Piranha_man

^^ Or a matter of common sense...


----------



## memento

Piranha_man said:


> ^^ Or a matter of common sense...


Not so long ago it was common sense that Pygos could not be kept together... let alone be bred.
Common sense is not always a fact.


----------



## Sylar_92

The piranha seems to have some discoloured fins and skin which makes it partially albino or it could be pigment mutation. For it to be a full albino The colour needs to be completely white or light yellow with the presence of red pupils in most specimens with albinism. Cool pics by the way, its interesting to see some thing different in red bellies. As for what JZ said about fish turning pale when they are stressed is accurate, sometimes a fish may contain a parasite but does not display signs of distress til the end before it dies but Iam not neccessary saying this about yours. When I change my water my red bellies go black, the only time they were pale is when I first bought them and introduced them to the tank. By the way where are you getting the cariba from? and how many?


----------



## BRUNER247

Weak genes from inbreeding would take a few generations to be noticeable. The eggs would be weak,& the fry would die in the early stages. To say all captive bred have weak genes is ignorant.


----------



## zackmorrisl

It is possible this could have been caused by poor water conditions. I purchased that fish from my LFS a few months back along with a few others from the same shoal. The others though are really dark and have beautiful orange colors with pretty high flame jobs. I myself do 2 water changes a week and although my PH is a tad on the high side I make sure all my levels are perfect all the time.


----------



## Sylar_92

BRUNER247 said:


> Weak genes from inbreeding would take a few generations to be noticeable. The eggs would be weak,& the fry would die in the early stages. To say all captive bred have weak genes is ignorant.


X2


----------



## BRUNER247

Anyone that thinks inbreeding causes weak genes needs to read up on breeding. Inbreeding has been used for hundreds of years to bring out wanted traits, rid of bad ones, & enhance others. Take pitbulls. They've been inbred since the beginning of the breed, hogs, cows, ect ect. You think other fish hobbists haven't inbred to get some of the colorations we have today? Koi, Oscars, the list is a mile long.. Someone inbreeding when they know nothing about what they're doing is surely going to result in sub-par results like a weak, sickly, deformed or even just the opposite of what they were striving for


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh SNAPP!!!


----------



## Guest

BRUNER247 said:


> Anyone that thinks inbreeding causes weak genes needs to read up on breeding. Inbreeding has been used for hundreds of years to bring out wanted traits, rid of bad ones, & enhance others. Take pitbulls. They've been inbred since the beginning of the breed, hogs, cows, ect ect. You think other fish hobbists haven't inbred to get some of the colorations we have today? Koi, Oscars, the list is a mile long.. Someone inbreeding when they know nothing about what they're doing is surely going to result in sub-par results like a weak, sickly, deformed or even just the opposite of what they were striving for


Inbreeding in pits can cause a lot of health problems which is why every so often you outbreed with another blood line.


----------



## BRUNER247

Traveller said:


> Anyone that thinks inbreeding causes weak genes needs to read up on breeding. Inbreeding has been used for hundreds of years to bring out wanted traits, rid of bad ones, & enhance others. Take pitbulls. They've been inbred since the beginning of the breed, hogs, cows, ect ect. You think other fish hobbists haven't inbred to get some of the colorations we have today? Koi, Oscars, the list is a mile long.. Someone inbreeding when they know nothing about what they're doing is surely going to result in sub-par results like a weak, sickly, deformed or even just the opposite of what they were striving for


Inbreeding in pits can cause a lot of health problems which is why every so often you outbreed with another blood line.
[/quote]
Hence why if you get someone that doesn't know what they're doing it can end in disaster. If you understand inbreeding, line-breeding, & cross-breeding certain traits can be enhanced while unwanted ones can be bred out. All undesirable traits in offspring should be culled instead of getting a chance to reproduce.imo this is why captive bred rbp don't normally have the red belly that wilds have. Poor breeding practices.keepers just let any ol fish breed with no thought about coloration, size ect. This is why rbp colorations are behind compared to say electric blue jacks or albino Oscars, or the longfinned Oscars ect ect ect. Everybody that's breeding rbp aren't planned breedings(matching the best coloration ect) they're just letting the fish pick the mates. The breeders are focused on the $$$ instead of offsprings outcome.


----------



## Guest

Very well put


----------



## zackmorrisl

BRUNER247 said:


> Anyone that thinks inbreeding causes weak genes needs to read up on breeding. Inbreeding has been used for hundreds of years to bring out wanted traits, rid of bad ones, & enhance others. Take pitbulls. They've been inbred since the beginning of the breed, hogs, cows, ect ect. You think other fish hobbists haven't inbred to get some of the colorations we have today? Koi, Oscars, the list is a mile long.. Someone inbreeding when they know nothing about what they're doing is surely going to result in sub-par results like a weak, sickly, deformed or even just the opposite of what they were striving for


Inbreeding in pits can cause a lot of health problems which is why every so often you outbreed with another blood line.
[/quote]
Hence why if you get someone that doesn't know what they're doing it can end in disaster. If you understand inbreeding, line-breeding, & cross-breeding certain traits can be enhanced while unwanted ones can be bred out. All undesirable traits in offspring should be culled instead of getting a chance to reproduce.imo this is why captive bred rbp don't normally have the red belly that wilds have. Poor breeding practices.keepers just let any ol fish breed with no thought about coloration, size ect. This is why rbp colorations are behind compared to say electric blue jacks or albino Oscars, or the longfinned Oscars ect ect ect. Everybody that's breeding rbp aren't planned breedings(matching the best coloration ect) they're just letting the fish pick the mates. The breeders are focused on the $$$ instead of offsprings outcome.
[/quote]

I was trying to send this photo to frank but could not find a way to upload it so I will paste it here since we are talking about genetic flaws. This little guy was born with a squishy face. His lower jaw does not extend further then the top jaw. This one is in my shoal as well but is not related to the "color handicap" fish I posted b4.


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

That is not an albino and it looks normal. It does have pretty good colour.


----------



## zackmorrisl

Here are some more pictures, one of my lights burned out last night leaving just the 6700 daylight. I was able to get the camera not shine a red light and got some more accurate photos of my colorless RBP. Someone mentioned something about my aquarium light enhancing the appearance of the fish in the previous photos. Here are some photos of the fish in the shade and next to other P's in the same type of light condition.


----------



## memento

It's a faint one, yes.
But not an albino. The gills are orange and the eye is red. In albinos, the eye would most likely be pink as in all albino species. The colour of the fish itself would be completely pale, or yellowish.
So it does have pigments, and therefore not an albino.


----------



## zackmorrisl

I'm not saying the fish has any disorder but I have taken a bit of an interest in this topic and have done a little research. It seems that this fish may suffer from something called "Leucism". I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS WHAT IT IS, I AM SIMPLY MAKING A SUGGESTION. There are different levels of albinism as well which include partial albinism. The only real way to find out for sure is through testing. So not to sound like a jerk but I'm sorry nobody here YET is qualified to answer the mystery of this fish and if you were qualified you would have simply said the only way to know is by testing, not coming up with your own conclusions and presenting them as factual.

Read on if you would like to educate yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucism

To anyone who says there is nothing different and they have fish that look the same please post photo's and prove it. IF all your fish are discolored like this one its probably from something your doing wrong. To see a single fish mixed with others that looks totally different is a bit out of the ordinary and you would have to be pretty dumb to argue that.


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

"A hobbyist several years ago purchased a purported albino piranha (see images above). *This fish while interesting does not appear to have the recessive gene that creates albinism in species. Nor does it exhibit the pink eye associated with such albinism*. It could be called a "golden piranha" based on its color alone. The fish is likely a geographic variation, however, sometimes parasites can cause similar problems, but the fish looks in good health. The fish has plenty of red pigments mixed in with the yellow. This could later become redder if the fish becomes ready to reproduce. It was raised in dim light which would help explain part of the reason it lacks the intense coloration of the body. The fish was originally purchased from a piranha breeder in Ohio who has been producing this color (belly) variety for a number of years. The juvenile fish was then sold to another person (who kept the fish in dim light) which eventually made its way to the Pira-News2000 reader. The original fish breeder and I are old friends and I was fortunate to receive a few of these fish as gifts for OPEFE. Fink was also provided some samples and he was surprised the fish maintained its bright yellow belly color after being bred for so many years in the aquarium. *Albino piranhas may or may not exist in nature. In my 40 years of examining piranha I have never seen one. Nor has Dr. William L. Fink, though he did intimate the possibility of its existence in nature. As discussed below, such critters are normally eaten by the clan as inferior*. Piranhas raised in little to no light suffer from nutritional losses the sun (or artificial light) provides. The chromatophores (stellate cells) which produce color require certain vitamins which natural sunlight provides. This pigment and refractive granules are important and if they do not get light then certain things can happen to the pituitary gland which controls the hormone (called intermedin)." ªª

ªª From: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/piranha038/nattereri.html


----------



## Smoke

So are you going to get it tested? I'd be curious to know what results you get back...


----------



## memento

Could be. Could also be just a geographical variant.
Have a look at this Brazilian specimen for example : http://www.opefe.com/images/Greg_Dimijian.jpg

Don't start thinking about genetics too early, P.nattereri is such a widespread species that there still must be a lot of "normal" fish showing different from what we are used to.


----------



## Guest

I personally think it's just a vitamin deficiency or something similar. You see it a lot in show Arowanas, there is always one displaying odd colouration even though they have been raised the same way as the others.


----------



## zackmorrisl

Smoke said:


> So are you going to get it tested? I'd be curious to know what results you get back...


lol no that would cost a fortune I'd imagine!


----------



## zackmorrisl

memento said:


> Could be. Could also be just a geographical variant.
> Have a look at this Brazilian specimen for example : http://www.opefe.com/images/Greg_Dimijian.jpg
> 
> Don't start thinking about genetics too early, P.nattereri is such a widespread species that there still must be a lot of "normal" fish showing different from what we are used to.


WWWWOOOOWWWW I want that fish, his head is massive and he's so round! I'm not thinking my guy is anything except different from his tank buddies and other P's I've seen.


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

dude im loving his color


----------



## BRUNER247

There's pics of one of my vanilla rbp in the other albino thread or might be odd ball piranha thread. He's still very much vanilla colored even today.


----------



## zackmorrisl

BRUNER247 said:


> There's pics of one of my vanilla rbp in the other albino thread or might be odd ball piranha thread. He's still very much vanilla colored even today.


tried looking but had no luck, do you have a link I'd love to see it?


----------

