# kh 0 ph 6.4



## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

ok funny thing today i go and check my water parmeters

tap water ph 8 kh 3-4

210 gallon tank water 11 4-5 INCH cariba live plants wetdry + rena xp4 peat in wet dry 2 4/8 inch bags 1 6/8 inch bag of oak leaves

ph 6.4 kh 0 nitrates 40ppm amm 0 nitrites 0

weird right and i just did a 30 percent water change yester day with the tap water listed above

now i thought peat was supposed to lower ph but raise hardness wth
also oak leaves supposed to lower ph

i should have had a crash and dead fish did i catch this in the nick of time or what

i added seachem reef builder to up the kh to about 2 witch was 1 1/2 teaspoons about 9 grams

? normal reaction to heavy bioload as the last water change i made before yesterday was about 1 and a half weeks ago

at this point my ph is around 8 and kh is at 2 although the reef builder is not supposed to alter ph 
all test kits are api brand

ok so in a differance of 1 hour my kh went from 0 to 2 and wont go higher even with the addition of 18 additional grams of reef builder but my ph is wow high wtf

can sombody please help me im going nuts this is destroying every thing i have learned on ph kh

what would you do


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

First off...you need to stop adding sh*t to your water until you understand what you are doing.

Peat will lower the kh as well as the ph...and with a kh on the low side (3-4)...you are pushing it...especially with the bag of leaves and 2 bags of peat. I would start by removing the leaves and one bag of peat and see how that works after you do your water changes. All this messing with the ph is not good for the fish at all. A stable ph of 8 is much healthier for them then this bouncing around.

Reefs have a high ph in the 8 range anyways...so I would think that raising the kh would also raise the ph.


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

You need to bring the nitrates down by doing some water changes. The nitrate ions are the conjugate base for nitric acid meaning that it is a dissociated acid and will lower your pH along with any dissolved CO2 in the tank. If your water is relatively soft it will lose its buffering capacity within a week of a water change and the pH will drop.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

thanks shanker that makes sence

since my water is poorly buffered with a kh of 3 out of tap the ph is for some reason at 8-9 witch leads me to belive i need to get a general hardness test kit to fully understand why i have this problem cause it is really trouble some and with the large bioload 11 cariba produce i need to put s--t as you call it in my tank as i dont want a ph crash i was under the impression that peat lowers ph but also rasies hardness witch i thought wound make for a more stable lower ph maybe im wrong maybe im not i will read the topic ware i read these facts again

oh and the reef builder is not supposed to raise my ph but since my kh was so low in the first place being at 0 their was no way i could raise the kh without directly rasing the ph as their is no buffer capacity at o kh


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

All you need to do are water changes. Adding peat lowers the kh and makes your ph that much more unstable. If you want to buffer the kh...you can use baking soda...I wouldnt use anything made for a reef tank.

Shanker...do you really think 40ppm nitrates will effect the buffering capacity of his water? If he has a high bioload like he says..in order to keep to 40ppm he must be doing enough water changes.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

i have 1 more question if you guys can help as you did so far greatly

i dont have a general hardness test kit yet

? ok my ph at a low number of 6.0 has a tendensy to be slightly stable if not moderatly stable with peat and leaves

can it be possible that my general hardness is very high wich is making my ph at 8-9 with my kh at 3 
what is the likly hood of this


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

pirayaman said:


> i have 1 more question if you guys can help as you did so far greatly
> 
> i dont have a general hardness test kit yet
> 
> ...


Your ph is only stable when you have a high kh. They are directly related. My understanding is the gh and ph have no relation....so a high gh will not effect your ph. Baking soda or crushed coral will increase the kh and allow you to stabilize your ph. Your fish can easily adapt to a ph of 8+...it is the fluctuations that will harm them. When you have a high ph you need to watch two things. Take a little more care in acclimating new fish...and have good bio-filtration because a spike in ammonia is more harmful with a high ph. Other then that...there it isnt a problem.


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

pirayaman said:


> i have 1 more question if you guys can help as you did so far greatly
> 
> i dont have a general hardness test kit yet
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure the general hardness is the measure of the calcium and magnesium in the water and doesn't matter what form of calcium or magnesium is there. If it came as a chloride it won't have any effect on pH. I'm not sure how the sulfate would be since it is also highly dissociated in solution. I know that the phosphate and carbonate will raise the pH and act as a buffer forming biphosphate and bicarbonate since they don't completely dissociate easily.

Remove the Peat Moss and leaves and allow the tap water with its existing kH to keep the water stable until your next water change. Agitate the surface more with a good powerhead or filter or even an airstone since you can bubble out excess CO2 from the water and raise the pH that way. I need to do further reading as to why CO2 will bubble out as opposed to bubble in with a pH above 4.5 but I suppose this is only true for distilled water or rain water. The answer is out there but its split up over a thousand places. Maybe I can find a book on amazon.com for less than 100 bucks that will explain water chemistry in full. I'm afraid I gave myself a Labattomy already and I need to leave some room for computer programming.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

shanker said:


> i have 1 more question if you guys can help as you did so far greatly
> 
> i dont have a general hardness test kit yet
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure the general hardness is the measure of the calcium and magnesium in the water and doesn't matter what form of calcium or magnesium is there. If it came as a chloride it won't have any effect on pH. I'm not sure how the sulfate would be since it is also highly dissociated in solution. I know that the phosphate and carbonate will raise the pH and act as a buffer forming biphosphate and bicarbonate since they don't completely dissociate easily.

Remove the Peat Moss and leaves and allow the tap water with its existing kH to keep the water stable until your next water change. Agitate the surface more with a good powerhead or filter or even an airstone since you can bubble out excess CO2 from the water and raise the pH that way. I need to do further reading as to why CO2 will bubble out as opposed to bubble in with a pH above 4.5 but I suppose this is only true for distilled water or rain water. The answer is out there but its split up over a thousand places. Maybe I can find a book on amazon.com for less than 100 bucks that will explain water chemistry in full. I'm afraid I gave myself a Labattomy already and I need to leave some room for computer programming.
[/quote]

well said shanker but it general hardess is calcium and mag and then what is kh the same thing i thought 
im still lost cause for a 0 kh i still have a stable ph it was only at 6.4 as opposed to 4 or something

im so lost


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

pirayaman said:


> i have 1 more question if you guys can help as you did so far greatly
> 
> i dont have a general hardness test kit yet
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure the general hardness is the measure of the calcium and magnesium in the water and doesn't matter what form of calcium or magnesium is there. If it came as a chloride it won't have any effect on pH. I'm not sure how the sulfate would be since it is also highly dissociated in solution. I know that the phosphate and carbonate will raise the pH and act as a buffer forming biphosphate and bicarbonate since they don't completely dissociate easily.

Remove the Peat Moss and leaves and allow the tap water with its existing kH to keep the water stable until your next water change. Agitate the surface more with a good powerhead or filter or even an airstone since you can bubble out excess CO2 from the water and raise the pH that way. I need to do further reading as to why CO2 will bubble out as opposed to bubble in with a pH above 4.5 but I suppose this is only true for distilled water or rain water. The answer is out there but its split up over a thousand places. Maybe I can find a book on amazon.com for less than 100 bucks that will explain water chemistry in full. I'm afraid I gave myself a Labattomy already and I need to leave some room for computer programming.
[/quote]

well said shanker but it general hardess is calcium and mag and then what is kh the same thing i thought 
im still lost cause for a 0 kh i still have a stable ph it was only at 6.4 as opposed to 4 or something

im so lost
[/quote]

Your gonna have to keep searching the forum and maybe do some googling on Aquatic Chemistry to get a better picture of whats going on. I'm pretty sure the kH is concerned only with the carbonate that often is accompanied with Calcium and Magnesium as their respective carbonates but it is not the only way they could have gotten in the water as it could have happened from epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) or other types of salts containing them.

Don't worry about the pH going down to like 4 since you are not bubbling in pure CO2 into the tank however the fish are exchanging CO2 from their gills into the water. The dropping of the pH should be a slow process as long as you're not bubbling pure CO2 into the water. By the time it gets to like 6 you should be doing more water changes anyway.


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

This web page gives a pretty down to earth explanation of gH, kH, pH and ways of altering them.

http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/chemistry.html

As far as the chemistry of buffering goes and calculating pH values for a given concentration of carbonate or bicarbonate at equilibrium in an open system it becomes like an upper level college chemistry course in the information you have to understand.

I found an equation for the pH of water at equilibrium in an open system for a given partial pressure of CO2 with a kH of 0.

pH = 3.9 - 1/2 X Log[Partial pressure of CO2]

So when you plug in 250/1000000 for partial pressure (representing atmospheric 250 PPM conditions) you get an equilibrium value of pH 5.7.

That website I referenced should be enough to answer your questions and if you want to know more you missed your calling as a chemist.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

ok shanker that was the articule that i previously read so i was wrong peat lowers kh gh and ph 
you were right

well next it says that kh and gh are a rep of ph so i think in order to get a full understanding like i said i will need a gh kit as it does say that certian water combinations are diff ill figure this out and get back to you

also what is strang is i have tested the tap water before and it was 4-5 numerous times in fact now i am running the water way more with a 210 125 water changes plus a elavated need for reg daily use 
and my kh tap is now 3 i just thought that was werid ohwell

thanks


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

finally i found the culprit i just used my new gh test and low and behold it is 260 wich comes from my drop number 13 muliplyed by 20 witch is 260

so here we are my gh 260 very very high my kh at 4-5 and my ph is 8-

i know kh has a derect relation but this gh thing is crazy wow right my gh is so out in space

ok and i just tested tap water its at 140 wich is as the test says moderatly hard water

does that sound right tap water gh 140 kh 3-4 and ph 8+

ok to me it seems that my tap ph is high cause of my gh even though i keep reading that kh has more of an effect on ph than gh

i guess i will have to let the low kh thing happen again so i can get a feel for how much gh has to do with ph right

yes im on the hunt for awnsers and i will have then even if it kills me ahahahahaa


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

pirayaman said:


> finally i found the culprit i just used my new gh test and low and behold it is 260 wich comes from my drop number 13 muliplyed by 20 witch is 260
> 
> so here we are my gh 260 very very high my kh at 4-5 and my ph is 8-
> 
> ...


To me I believe you have some decor and or gravel or additive that is adding general hardness to your water as well as buffering capacity because with a kH of 3-4 dkH your pH should not be on the alkalinity side of the equation. Also your gH is lower out of tap than in tank which tells me your adding stuff or something in your tank is messing with the parameters.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

this is why 
i did a water change 
i checked my levels my kh was 0 and ph was 6.4 
fearing a ph crash i added reef builder from seachem 
i got my kh up to 4-5 and my ph went up to 8+
i bought a gh kit to see why my ph had not crashed wen my kh was 0
my number for gh was 260 but that was after i added the reef builder to bring up my kh 
so icouldnt awnser any of my questions as it was after i meesed with my kh 
im gonna have to wait untill thios happens again to see whats going on

1 question would a gh of 140 be buffering my ph or not it seems as though gh and kh are the same but diff retarted right i add kh up it brings gh up with it

why me all i want is a lower ph without crashing my system wth


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Are you using test strips or the vials with bottles of solution ? You can also take a sample of water to the lfs to see if their test results match yours. You never know, tests do go bad every once in a while. To me it is impossible to have a kH of 0 without a crash.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

my test are api brand with the test tubes and solution

wait heres a thought i do add aquarium salt to the tank would that have any effect on this

i did test the tap right after i got a 0 for kh in the tank and that was 3-4 so i think it does work 1 drop it turned instantly yellow and is supposed to turn blue first then yellow

oh i also add plant fertilizer by api called leaf zone

it does say on that one topic you can have well buffered low ph or something doesnt

i dont know im still lost


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