# Frank..ID please..



## kouma (Sep 1, 2003)

My babies have grown a lot and are almost 4-5 months old. I thought it would be a good time to check their ID.

Baby number 1


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## kouma (Sep 1, 2003)

more of baby 1


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## kouma (Sep 1, 2003)

Baby number 2


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## kouma (Sep 1, 2003)

more of baby 2


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Can you get a better closeup of belly like the first one. I see some prominent spines, but want to be sure.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

The body/head shape of a Spilo (IMO.), the tail of a Manueli (dark V, so it seems), and color/pattern of a young rhom or Spilo CF.....
If any fish, it most closely resembles this one (Hollandi?) found on OPEFE (again, IMO.)


















I have no idea, but it is beautiful for sure!!!


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## kouma (Sep 1, 2003)

its hard to take a better pic of the second one as it keep tilding everytime i get close. But the first and second p's are different from each other, i.e. from different suppliers.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Judazzz Posted on Mar 16 2004, 11:58 PM
> The body/head shape of a Spilo (IMO.), the tail of a Manueli (dark V, so it seems), and color/pattern of a young rhom or Spilo CF.....
> If any fish, it most closely resembles this one (Hollandi?) found on OPEFE (again, IMO.)
> 
> ...





> kouma Posted on Mar 17 2004, 01:50 AM
> its hard to take a better pic of the second one as it keep tilding everytime i get close. But the first and second p's are different from each other, i.e. from different suppliers.
> *I suspect the fish may be S. altispinis, certainly the pattern is about right and the tail too points in that direction. What little I can see of the belly scutes suggests that species.*


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## SharkAquarium (May 16, 2003)

I think I recognise the hand, and the colored tub in the above picture. MINE !!!!

Those pics were taken by me in Peru, 2-3 years ago, I think on the upper Nanay. (I have never seen red throat in the Nanay, but they are usually collected in the Itaya, which is relatively close at their mouths, and probably share a common flood plain.) That would lend credence to the S. altispinnus id, however, I am not so sure. We were way up the Nanay (5 days), and I have seen more than my share of red throat piranha in Peru (and in New Jersey when I open boxes from Peru that should contain red belly, but indeed do contain red throat piranha). The profile to me was more pronounced. Let me try to find the pics from this trip, as I probably have many more. Also, these fish did not survive the night, and normal red throat you usually can't kill !

On a similar note, last week I had a box from Brasil (Mannaus) that was supposed to contain wild nattereri, but instead was another red throated animal. If it is the same fish as from Peru (red throat, altispinis, medinei, spilo c.f.), it is the first time I have seen this fish exported from Peru. I am curious what the official distribution of S. altispinis is........ I still have them, all singled out, cleaning them up.

george


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> SharkAquarium Posted on Mar 17 2004, 08:40 PM
> _I think I recognise the hand, and the colored tub in the above picture. MINE !!!!_
> 
> *Yup that be you. Evidently, Judazz forgot to credit your photo from OPEFE site.*
> ...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

And while we are on this subject another similar appearing species (S. sanchezi) is found in Caño Yarina in edge of the Rio Pacaya, flow Canal of Puinahua (lower branch Rio Ucayali).


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## SharkAquarium (May 16, 2003)

Frank, I love all this interest in this fish, whatever the name. It is definately a Serrasalmus, inexpensive, readily available, attractive with its silvery, reflective flanks, and to someone looking for a challenge, shoalable with Pygo's. (I have done it many times.)

I am a bit confused, however on the type location. The only Uatuma River in my atlas is a few hundred miles east of Manaus, in Brasil. Is there another in Peru?

Could it me the red throat from Peru I recently imported is S. altispinis, and the red throat from Peru is S. sanchezi ?????


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## kouma (Sep 1, 2003)

btw the first pic..today I looked at the fish and found humeral spot behind the gills on each side..those babies are truly amazing..I wonder what they'll turn out to be..


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> SharkAquarium Posted on Mar 18 2004, 02:26 PM
> Frank, I love all this interest in this fish, whatever the name. It is definately a Serrasalmus, inexpensive, readily available, attractive with its silvery, reflective flanks, and to someone looking for a challenge, shoalable with Pygo's. (I have done it many times.)
> 
> I am a bit confused, however on the type location. The only Uatuma River in my atlas is a few hundred miles east of Manaus, in Brasil. Is there another in Peru?
> ...


That's where it gets dicey. Jegu never compared the Sanchezi with the Altispinis he named. Part of the problem with Sanchezi is that Gery (who first described it and named it) said it was a near twin of spilopleura, but also gave a rather broad description of the fish that could indeed fit S. altispinis. When looking at the holotype of S. sanchezi, it looks like a very young S. altispinis. So my impression (and opinion) is to just call the red-throated from Peru S. altispinis and forget about S. sanchezi until a competent authority revisits the descriptions and revises this mess. The S. sanchezi (the first I ever saw in 1966) and just after Gery named it is spitting image of the fish called SPILO CF. So I rest with S. altispinis as the proper name until.............


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## erikcooper (Feb 18, 2004)

So spilo cf is more than likely altispinis??


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## SharkAquarium (May 16, 2003)

Frank, what about the River issue, being in Brasil instead of Peru?

At the moment, I believe I have pieces of both populations. Maybe I should send you a couple....

g


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## kouma (Sep 1, 2003)

Frank, here is my third one - very clear picture. This fish was the same size when I bought them 5 months ago..amazingly it has doubled in size from all dimensions.

Can you id it?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> SharkAquarium Posted on Mar 19 2004, 01:29 PM
> Frank, what about the River issue, being in Brasil instead of Peru?
> 
> At the moment, I believe I have pieces of both populations. Maybe I should send you a couple....
> ...


Be patient, I'm checking into something. Also Labbish (Chao) sent me a photo a few years back of a "new species" from Rio Solimoes (or one of the neighboring rivers, I check the locality to be sure) that resembles our elusive fish. I'll post it here later today when I get a couple moments.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Both localities (for altispinis and sanchezi) are indeed Brazilian, however, S. sanchezi is noted also to be from Peru. However, David Schleser also reports the fish in Rio Nanay, Peru. I'm still looking for the slides from Labbish Chao of this same fish. Its possible since all these rivers are attached to the Amazon this fish probably migrates or swarms in a larger area than originally thought. I'll know more later tonight.

Well I was wrong about the Chao fish, it is S. hastatus photo (since named when it first appeared at OPEFE web site as a new unamed species).


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Here you go George the official distribution of S. altispinis. The black oval are S. rhombeus which appears sympatric with S. altispinis (half black/white oval):


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## kouma (Sep 1, 2003)

great info guys!! now what about my FISH!!









Are they (all three) altispinis?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> kouma Posted on Mar 19 2004, 07:15 PM
> great info guys!! now what about my FISH!!
> 
> Are they (all three) altispinis?


hahaha, sorry, thought I answered that, yes, it appears so.


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## kouma (Sep 1, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > kouma Posted on Mar 19 2004, 07:15 PM
> > great info guys!! now what about my FISH!!
> >
> > Are they (all three) altispinis?
> ...


 Thanks Frank!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Ok George:

I did some digging in my maps (a huge NG map no less :laugh: ), anyway Rio Ucayali is in Peru and comes off of Rio Solimoes not far from Belem. This would be for S. sanchezi.

S. altispinis is (as you noted Brazilian) and is found in Uatuma and this connects off Rio Solimoes too and not far from Manaus.

I suspect since S. sanchezi was based on a small specimen (holotype and 2 specimens) all 3 under 4 inches, then I wouldnt' be surprized if indeed S. altispinis is the same species and more widespread that originally believed. Talk about getting confused on the localities. Even got me scratching my head.


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## SharkAquarium (May 16, 2003)

I think you're still a bit confused. (or I am with what you are saying).



> I did some digging in my maps (a huge NG map no less ), anyway Rio Ucayali is in Peru and comes off of Rio Solimoes not far from Belem. This would be for S. sanchezi


Rio Ucayali is indeed in Peru, but upriver (WEST) from Iquitos. Brasil is significantly down river to the East, and Belem still hundreds of miles further east.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> SharkAquarium Posted on Mar 22 2004, 01:54 AM
> I think you're still a bit confused. (or I am with what you are saying).
> 
> *Wouldn't be the first time for me to confuse you. :laugh: Anyway, I'm outlining the map information for those that don't have maps (and is not meant for you as you are more knowledgeable than I am on map reading) as you stated:*
> ...


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## asian_redtail_catfish (Sep 25, 2003)

George should know. He goes to South America all the time and knows where things are.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> asian_redtail_catfish Posted on Mar 22 2004, 06:19 AM
> George should know. He goes to South America all the time and knows where things are.


What? We're discussing a locality of a species. I don't doubt George knows his rivers, but this is not the issue.


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## Htotheb (Mar 30, 2004)

Just to add an update to this thread:

I purchased one of the above fish from Kouma in late August. I believe that it is baby #2. It is healthy and eating whatever I feed daily.

It has a very prominent black V on the caudal fin, though not even a hint of a terminal band. The anal fin is a thin black band across near the body with the rest being solid red. He has bright red behind the gills.

Is there a resource that greater explains the variation of fin colour throughout the lifecycle of various types of piranhas? Is it possible for a young piranha to lose or gain a terminal band on the caudal fin as it ages or is that a set feature?

thanks,

Andrew


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

The tail band is variable, some more prominent than others. Sometimes stress can fade out the terminal band making it appear almost hyaline. In others it remains cleared edged. The dark "V" is 1 characteristic of; manueli, gouldingi, irritans, marginatus, some Pristobrycon to name a few with this feature. Some like S. spilopleura or maculatus have a thin hyaline edge on the tail some thick. As for S. sanchezi, this fish tends to have an appearing "V" but with a faint lightly colored terminal band. Often times the terminal band can be as prominent as those in Pygocentrus and S. rhombeus.


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## Htotheb (Mar 30, 2004)

Hey guys,

It's been almost 2 years since I got one of these fish from Kouma (fish #2 I believe). I have posted 4 fairly high res photos. He is still pretty skittish and was hard to get a clear picture of. Are these pictures good enough for a decent ID? I just moved today which prompted me to take the pictures now that the tank walls are pretty clean. He usually has a lot more red but other than that he's in great shape despite the move.

hb

Edit: Kouma if you still are around this board (I know when I bought this little guy you were getting into salt water) he's been well taken care of and absolutely mangles feeders when he gets the chance.


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## Htotheb (Mar 30, 2004)

Anyone?


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## GoJamieGo (Mar 18, 2005)

Looks like a sanchezi 2me.


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## Htotheb (Mar 30, 2004)

What kind of qualities will give me a definitive? I've read the pinned post but I still find it hard to id. 
Here is the pic from that thread:

Pic from sanchezi ID thread

It seems to have the scutes that this pic has. Also there is that slight hint of a terminal band. The coloration looks about right - however some pics I've seen a tremendous amount of spotting rather than the silverish look on my fish and this pic.

Any other hints?


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## Piranha Guru (Nov 24, 2005)

Htotheb said:


> What kind of qualities will give me a definitive? I've read the pinned post but I still find it hard to id.
> Here is the pic from that thread:
> 
> Pic from sanchezi ID thread
> ...


Looks a lot like my 6" sanchezi. If I recall correctly, its spots disappeared somewhere around the 3-4" mark. Lighting, diet, and mood bring out the colors better.


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