# P Identity



## mheimke

Was wondering if I could get your expert opinions on what species this is? I know what he was sold to me as, just wanting to double check.


















oh, by the way this is my first post so.... Heya all!


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## jp80911

Serrasalmus Spilopleura


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## Tensa

jp80911 said:


> Serrasalmus Spilopleura


yep x2 also known as RRS pun intended at you JP


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## Piranha-Freak101

ruby red spilo

I WIN !!


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## mheimke

Cool, thats what I thought he was. I see alot of videos online of these little guys chasing fingers, and just seeming a little ill tempered in general. Mines not like that however, he is by no means as shy as my old RBellies were at his size, and he does like chasing my beagle when he walks by the tank.

At the moment I'm torn between keeping this guy or picking up one of the diamond Rhoms. I feel a little more attracted to the darker colored P's I guess. Anyone out there have any input on the differences between these two types as they get older.


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## Tensa

not really sure what your asking but best thing i can tell you is if you like the way a darker P looks then get that one. you pretty much get what you see. if your looking at a rhom thats a light color i woudlnt expect it to get darker over time. if you take a look around the site a lot of people who grow their rhoms out dont see much change in the color expect for the eyes getting a darker red as they age. so my best advise is get the specific P you like the look of.


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## CLUSTER ONE

Spilos are not dark p's so if you want a dark fish get a rhom or somethign else. Temperment wise giv e it time to adjust. Too many peopel buy and seel fish in the same month becasue they are not instantly satisfied with it's behaviour. Give it a chance toi adjst and get comfortable at which time you can make a more informed decision on its charachter.


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## mheimke

Thank you guys.


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## Da' Manster!

CLUSTER ONE said:


> Spilos are not dark p's so if you want a dark fish get a rhom or somethign else. Temperment wise giv e it time to adjust. Too many peopel buy and seel fish in the same month becasue they are not instantly satisfied with it's behaviour. Give it a chance toi adjst and get comfortable at which time you can make a more informed decision on its charachter.


Damn Sean!..How many beers did you have when typing that?!..Excellent advice but your spelling skills leave a lot to be desired!...









Edit:...Yes, it's a Ruby Red Spilo...or at least it looks like one!..


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## Piranha_man

Da said:


> Spilos are not dark p's so if you want a dark fish get a rhom or somethign else. Temperment wise giv e it time to adjust. Too many peopel buy and seel fish in the same month becasue they are not instantly satisfied with it's behaviour. Give it a chance toi adjst and get comfortable at which time you can make a more informed decision on its charachter.


Damn Sean!..How many beers did you have when typing that?!..Excellent advice but your spelling skills leave a lot to be desired!...








[/quote]

Yeah, Cluster is normally much sharper than that.









I figure he was drunk off his ass.

In regards to the fish, my spilo is just now beginning to show a little personality and courage... after having him for a year.

Good looking specimen you've got there!


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## hastatus

I showed M. Jegu a specimen like that some years ago. Even dissected one. He said it was S maculatus. Who knows.


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## Tensa

hastatus said:


> I showed M. Jegu a specimen like that some years ago. Even dissected one. He said it was S maculatus. Who knows.


why does your site read this if its a mac? "The authority M. Jégu recognizes this species and the one from Bolivia as being S. spilopleura. " based on this link click here


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## hastatus

We are discussing the photo above not the literature. If we go by the literature there are problems with it. Jegu overlooked S nigricans in his manuscript. Without this specimen examined S spilopleura and S maculatus run into problems. That's where the can of worms starts gets messy.


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## Piranha_man

Wouldn't the orangeish-red in the breast region of the fish in question depict it as a _S. spilopleura_?


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## Tensa

let me try asking you this. are you identifying the fish pictured above in this thread as something different then the ruby red spilo you have listed on opefe?


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## hastatus

Not necessarily. Belly color is variable with S maculatus range including body shape. I noticed hobbyist get hung up on those two issues when identifying these two species. Like I said its a very complex problem.



Tensa said:


> let me try asking you this. are you identifying the fish pictured above in this thread as something different then the ruby red spilo you have listed on opefe?


Yes. The photo above is the same species I discussed with Jegu. Some of those are also found in rio sao francisco probably transplanted there.


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## Tensa

ok let me throw one more at you its not a great pic and it is a very old picture but what would you id this one as mac or spilo?


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## hastatus

Tensa said:


> ok let me throw one more at you its not a great pic and it is a very old picture but what would you id this one as mac or spilo?


If you look at the manscript photo at the above link in the thread your photo fits image "B" S maculatus. http://opefe.com/images/Jegu3SpilMac.jpg


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## jp80911

hastatus said:


> ok let me throw one more at you its not a great pic and it is a very old picture but what would you id this one as mac or spilo?


If you look at the manscript photo at the above link in the thread your photo fits image "B" S maculatus. http://opefe.com/ima...egu3SpilMac.jpg
[/quote]
so whats the difference between tensa's and this one?









looks pretty similar to most of us if not all.....


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## Tensa

thank you


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## hastatus

You'd have to ask Jegu. Simply, the Fear fish was caught in the S spilopleura range. I have no idea where the tensa fish was caught. Like I said above its a can of worms when it comes to those two species. I am on record that S maculatus. S nigricans should have been left as a synomnyn of S spilopleura. Until a future authority revisits this species it will continue to be "where was the fish collected ".


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## Tensa

imma leave this convo before i need a flame suit smh


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## hastatus

Tensa said:


> imma leave this convo before i need a flame suit smh


And people wonder why I left for so long.


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## Piranha-Freak101




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## hastatus

The problem with piranha taxons is historic in nature. They are very diverse and because of that dna is still in its infancy. Realistically if it were up to me, i'd scrap the entire species names and start over. Unfortunately that's not how it works. So opefe must stay with the science even though it has holes in it from the science community.


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## Johnny_Zanni

Tensa's fish and the fish of Georges look exactly the same. But your saying they are ID'd differently based on collection point even though they look like exactly the same type of fish.

Last time I checked species doesn't change if local is the only difference...


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## hastatus

Johnny_Zanni said:


> Tensa's fish and the fish of Georges look exactly the same. But your saying they are ID'd differently based on collection point even though they look like exactly the same type of fish.
> 
> Last time I checked species doesn't change if local is the only difference...


Which is why you don't understand the.mechanics of how species are identified when it comes to piranhas.


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## Johnny_Zanni

How about you explain it. The fish has no external physical differences.


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## Tensa

species are species science should classify them all based on the same criteria whether its canines, felines, or piranhas. its the scientific way of doing things its the scientific way of filing kingdoms/family/species/etc. none of us are trying to argue just what your saying doesnt make sense Frank. at least not to us not the way your saying it.


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## hastatus

Tensa said:


> species are species science should classify them all based on the same criteria whether its canines, felines, or piranhas. its the scientific way of doing things its the scientific way of filing kingdoms/family/species/etc. none of us are trying to argue just what your saying doesnt make sense Frank. at least not to us not the way your saying it.


I'll try to explain it better. Before Jegu did his upgrade and rehabilitation S spilopleura was a singular species. All other names were synomonized by Norman 1929. Jegu rehabilitated S maculatus to apply to certain species found in a few river locations. While keeping S spilopleura as being a bolivian species. However he omitted or overlooked S nigricans which is found in the lower amazon (same generalized fish as Fear's and in the photo). Until this error is corrected there will be problems because the characters that separate S maculatus from S spilopleura are internal features not seen by the naked eye. S maculatus based on dna is a polymorphic species. Meaning that in its geographical areas it will have a varying body shape. Eye color is plastic (varies) as does the belly color. In the last couple or so years Jegu has discovered that S maculatus is more widespread than he originally thought. Hubert (French authority under J. Gery) then discovered that Jegu misidentified a species as S spilopleura when in fact it was S eigenmanni.

So you can call your fish S spilopleura or S maculatus. Doesn't matter to me. But scientifically speaking you will be in error if you don't know the historic problems with either of those species. Or where it was collected.

Lastly most aquarium bred are S maculatus. 10 or do less years ago they would have been simply S spilopleura.

Had enough yet?


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## mheimke

I purchased him from Aquascape, and he was labled as a ruby red. I know that doesn't paticularly mean anything though.


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## hastatus

mheimke said:


> I purchased him from Aquascape, and he was labled as a ruby red. I know that doesn't paticularly mean anything though.


Only to you and the dealer. Common names have no scientific value. But they are pretty fish.


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## Tensa

no idea what you mean by had enough yet? but answer to your question is most likely no. you dont have anything to prove me really just seems like your contradicting yourself a little bit is all you say its internal features one moment then say its collection point another. errors aside i think the only valid way for you to respond would be to say a dissection would be required to identify the internal features as being maculatus or as spilopleura. eyeing it and not even knowing the collection point which you are saying is required to call it spilo or mac is not valid. either you can look at it and tell you cant. if the fish came out of a river in china would the species change magically then?


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## hastatus

Tensa said:


> no idea what you mean by had enough yet? but answer to your question is most likely no. you dont have anything to prove me really just seems like your contradicting yourself a little bit is all you say its internal features one moment then say its collection point another. errors aside i think the only valid way for you to respond would be to say a dissection would be required to identify the internal features as being maculatus or as spilopleura. eyeing it and not even knowing the collection point which you are saying is required to call it spilo or mac is not valid. either you can look at it and tell you cant. if the fish came out of a river in china would the species change magically then?


Well I can see you don't get it or how species are created. Again I will tell you piranha systemics is in shambles. Im not going to cover it all here because its well written at opefe.

No biggie. Call the fish whatever you want or what makes you feel good.


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## Mr. Hannibal

Hopefully Jegu will eventually solve this thing...


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## Johnny_Zanni

Don't call our ID's wrong when you can't ID the fish yourself..


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## hastatus

Mr. Hannibal said:


> Don't call our ID's wrong when you can't ID the fish yourself..


Excuse me? Didn't realise you are the expert in my forum.


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## Johnny_Zanni

Excuse me since when is this your forum?


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## Mr. Hannibal

So sad people do not appreciate what Frank has done for the hobby... without OPEFE you could hardly identify any especies...


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## hastatus

Johnny_Zanni said:


> Excuse me since when is this your forum?


I run the opefe science forum and this one here since you were likely running in diapers. Majority of species ID are done by me not only here but also in educational and commercial institutions. If it were not for opefe you couldn't ID a guppy from a juvenile P nattereri.

Come back when you've learned some respect or grown some knowledge of what your talking about when it comes to science and identification.

Moron.


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## Johnny_Zanni

You must be mistaken. We do appreciate his website especially since I have learnt a lot off it... But when he say one thing then another contradicting himself then people ask questions. Deal with it.


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## Tensa

now now everyone calm down no need to blow a fuse. really if this has run its course just lock it Frank you are a mod. but give JZ a lil credit too. he knows his stuff so dont belittle his knowledge.


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## Johnny_Zanni

hastatus said:


> Excuse me since when is this your forum?


I run the opefe science forum and this one here since you were likely running in diapers. Majority of species ID are done by me not only here but also in educational and commercial institutions. If it were not for opefe you couldn't ID a guppy from a juvenile P nattereri.

Come back when you've learned some respect or grown some knowledge of what your talking about when it comes to science and identification.

Moron.
[/quote]

This is not OPEFE or the OPEFE Science forum.

Respect is earned. You had my respect but your currently losing it by thinking your better then myself, tensa and other members here. So don't talk to me about respect. Cause remember without all the scientists who actually caught the fish from the rivers you wouldn't have anything to do with piranhas.


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## hastatus

Johnny_Zanni said:


> Excuse me since when is this your forum?


I run the opefe science forum and this one here since you were likely running in diapers. Majority of species ID are done by me not only here but also in educational and commercial institutions. If it were not for opefe you couldn't ID a guppy from a juvenile P nattereri.

Come back when you've learned some respect or grown some knowledge of what your talking about when it comes to science and identification.

Moron.
[/quote]

This is not OPEFE or the OPEFE Science forum.

Respect is earned. You had my respect but your currently losing it by thinking your better then myself, tensa and other members here. So don't talk to me about respect. Cause remember without all the scientists who actually caught the fish from the rivers you wouldn't have anything to do with piranhas.
[/quote]
I am better than you and tensa when it comes to species identifications and the science associated with them. Are you kidding me? Lol.

What exactly have you done for the hobby? In fact what have you done for pfury? Grow up kid.


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## Mr. Hannibal

Frank has brought all that scientific info to you and you don't even appreciate it... he is not better than you but he knows more about P ID than any other here... Even i could hardly differentiate piraya from nattereri without Machado-Allison and Frank Magallanes...


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## Piranha-Freak101

Quit being a dick zanni the man just telling you what he thinks and with 40+ years in the hobby i put money hes not making it up


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## Johnny_Zanni

hastatus said:


> Quit being a dick zanni the man just telling you what he thinks and with 40+ years in the hobby i put money hes not making it up


Shut up kid. If you read the thread and knew anything about something then you would see what I am talking about. Go back to the hardware store.


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## hastatus

Tensa said:


> now now everyone calm down no need to blow a fuse. really if this has run its course just lock it Frank you are a mod. but give JZ a lil credit too. he knows his stuff so dont belittle his knowledge.


Tensa I'm only looking at his experience in this hobby. He's still a baby trying to run when he hasn't even learned to walk yet. 
I give him credit for not killing his fish yet. But when it comes to science and ID's he's not qualified. He can guess all he wants and he might get the better known ones right, but doubt he even knows how or the why on species is.


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## hastatus

Zanni you are clueless when it comes to George and even mentioning Jegu. I've known George for years. We have a long history of cooperation. I've done Georges ID's for him when he had problems not knowing what he caught. You really are clueless even bringing him up.


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## Johnny_Zanni

hastatus said:


> now now everyone calm down no need to blow a fuse. really if this has run its course just lock it Frank you are a mod. but give JZ a lil credit too. he knows his stuff so dont belittle his knowledge.


Tensa I'm only looking at his experience in this hobby. He's still a baby trying to run when he hasn't even learned to walk yet. 
I give him credit for not killing his fish yet. But when it comes to science and ID's he's not qualified. He can guess all he wants and he might get the better known ones right, but doubt he even knows how or the why on species is.
[/quote]

I don't claim to be an expert. But you do. And when you say that Jegu (Meaning you aswell) ID'd said fish as S.Maculatus. Then you went on to say the OP could call the fish either S.Maculatus or S.Spilopleura but would still be wrong. Which is contradicting yourself.

You can't ID the fish. Which is why I said don't call others wrong when you don't even know.

Again as I have said many times. I do appreciate what you have done. And I don't think your dumb or anything like that. But read what you type before you type it...


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## Mr. Hannibal

We were talking about piranha ID and i honestly found ridiculous to argue against Frank on this... this guy has made what no one else has, gathering together a vast amount of info which even Machado-Allison or Jegu hasn't... his contribution to this hobby is HUGE... he didn't contradicted himself, you need to read carefully...


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## Johnny_Zanni

hastatus said:


> Zanni you are clueless when it comes to George and even mentioning Jegu. I've known George for years. We have a long history of cooperation. I've done Georges ID's for him when he had problems not knowing what he caught. You really are clueless even bringing him up.


No I am not clueless for doing it Frank. Because he is one of the ones pulling the fish from the river. If he didn't do that then you wouldn't have fish to ID or study... You keep talking like your the one at the top of the pyramid. But your not. You are up there... But not at the top.

Im done with this thread.....

*In my opinion!!! Serrasalmus Spilopleura*


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## hastatus

Johnny_Zanni said:


> Zanni you are clueless when it comes to George and even mentioning Jegu. I've known George for years. We have a long history of cooperation. I've done Georges ID's for him when he had problems not knowing what he caught. You really are clueless even bringing him up.


No I am not clueless for doing it Frank. Because he is one of the ones pulling the fish from the river. If he didn't do that then you wouldn't have fish to ID or study... You keep talking like your the one at the top of the pyramid. But your not. You are up there... But not at the top.

Im done with this thread.....

*In my opinion!!! Serrasalmus Spilopleura*
[/quote]

Amazing all of this to go back to what I told him to do in the first place... call it what he wants.

But still wont make it so by scientific view lol


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## Piranha-Freak101

Jz is an idiot and fyi ive learned alot thanks to frank in just months ... and kid !!! do u know me asshole im no kid ... hardware store... Really is that the best you can , i make 3times more pay then you and all your fagat ass friends in 1 paintball game so dont come at me ....


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## Mr. Hannibal

Johnny_Zanni said:


> Zanni you are clueless when it comes to George and even mentioning Jegu. I've known George for years. We have a long history of cooperation. I've done Georges ID's for him when he had problems not knowing what he caught. You really are clueless even bringing him up.


No I am not clueless for doing it Frank. *Because he is one of the ones pulling the fish from the river*. If he didn't do that then you wouldn't have fish to ID or study... You keep talking like your the one at the top of the pyramid. But your not. You are up there... But not at the top.

Im done with this thread.....

*In my opinion!!! Serrasalmus Spilopleura*
[/quote]

Well bro, here in Venezuela most fishermen that been fishing and exporting Ps for years can't tell apart altuvei from rhombeus or even young striolatus from young eigenmanni... George has learned throughout this years but if i need to ID a piranha i will only trust Machado, Fink, Jegu and Magallanes!


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## hastatus

Mr. Hannibal said:


> Zanni you are clueless when it comes to George and even mentioning Jegu. I've known George for years. We have a long history of cooperation. I've done Georges ID's for him when he had problems not knowing what he caught. You really are clueless even bringing him up.


No I am not clueless for doing it Frank. *Because he is one of the ones pulling the fish from the river*. If he didn't do that then you wouldn't have fish to ID or study... You keep talking like your the one at the top of the pyramid. But your not. You are up there... But not at the top.

Im done with this thread.....

*In my opinion!!! Serrasalmus Spilopleura*
[/quote]

Well bro, here in Venezuela most fishermen that been fishing and exporting Ps for years can't tell apart altuvei from rhombeus or even young striolatus from young eigenmanni... George has learned throughout this years but if i need to ID a piranha i will only trust Machado, Fink, Jegu and Magallanes!
[/quote]

No different than any other country. Time to close this.


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## Xenon

I ask that everyone please respect this forum. Frank is kind enough to donate some time to help us ID these fish in this forum. Everyone is welcome to a dissenting opinion but please show it with respect.


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