# Sad Loss....



## themailm4n (Jul 31, 2010)

So today was the best and worst day I have had in a looooong time. 
I was trying very hard to purchase Primetime3wise's 14" Black Peru Rhom. A magnificent display of what a rhom is suposed to look like. So I drive out to see Prime in Erie and everything goes smothly. I cannot wait to get home and spend time with my new rhom!

Heres where things go awry...

I manage to get the beast into his new home. Water is crystal clear, gorgeous black substrate, black background. He's totally diggin it all! He was crusing around the tank exploring high and low. going from one end of the tank to the other. Looked perfectly happy. Until he saw his reflection that is. So he sees his reflection in the side of the tank and starts violently snapping away at it and he is thrashing pretty hard splashing water all around. With one fell swoop of his tail he kicks up soooo much gravel. Then he really wallops himself good. He bangs the side of the tank and kind of stuns himself and goes sideways for a sec but quickly shakes it off and coutinues swimming around... So at this point i decide maybe its best to just put a sheet over the tank so he cant see his reflection and he takes some time to calm down and get used to his new home. Welll i could still here some splashing around and some other clanging every now and again in there. I was worried so i carefully took part of the sheet off the check on him only to find him laying upsidedown in the bottom of the tank.... I could have just cried... This gorgeous display of primal strength and beauty, dead, in the middle of my tank. I am beyond upset








I just dont know what to do.... this fish was "the one" for me... How did this happen? Did he really have enough force to bash his head into the side of the tank and tko himself? then.. for lack of a better word... drown?!?! from lack of oxygen?! I want everyone's feedback.

I have pics, but they are just so sad to look at..... I decided against posting them on here :...(


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

What, have you got mirrored glass or something?


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## primetime3wise (Sep 28, 2003)

i feel sick about all this as well, it was such a sweet fish. this was really the only piranha i've ever had that i kind of got attached to...just his shear size was awesome.

i don't know what happened..some sort of concussion from slamming into the tank is my best guess, or maybe just plain old shock. i'd like to know what others here think


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

Wow, so he's serious??

I thought it was a joke thread.

Man, sorry about your loss... that's a pretty unique way to lose a fish.

Again, didn't mean to make light of the situation... I thought you were kidding.


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## 02stampede (Jul 20, 2010)

Piranha_man said:


> Wow, so he's serious??
> 
> I thought it was a joke thread.
> 
> ...


I knew what you were getting at since the TC had 1 post etc.(I have like 2 now lol)

That is a sad loss. Im sure that was one beautiful fish. That is the second one I read about today on this forum


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## Lifer374 (Dec 5, 2003)

Terrible. Just Terrible.

Sounds like shock to me assuming the tank was cycled and he was properly acclimated before being introduced. 
I read you removed the sheet...sounds like you were taking the correct steps to limit the amount of stress. Were the lights above the tank on?

Bad Day. Sorry man.


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## balluupnetme (Oct 23, 2006)

Sorry for the loss, dam that sucks


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## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

Sorry for your loss.


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## SERRAPYGO (Feb 4, 2003)

Wow! I've never heard of anything like this before.. I'm a little suspicious. These events don't add up and frankly, piranhas can't commit suicide in a tank no matter how hard they ram themselves into something. I won't even ask about water quality or wether or not the tank was cycled...or even the size of the tank, because it's all irrelavant. This is odd!

Post the pics! I'm curious...


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## HGI (Oct 27, 2009)

Sorry for you lost as well,


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

Sorry for you loss, that was a sweet rhom.









Am also curious about the light being on right away and am really hoping you had enough knowledge to cycle the tank etc. b4 getting a rhom that size.

Never heard of a rhom killing itself on glass b4, the only time I heard a rhom killed itself is when he bashed into a sharp piece of decor that subsequently went into his brain: sort of concaving the skull a bit too.


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## themailm4n (Jul 31, 2010)

Tank was cycled and crystal clear. It housed a schoal of red bellies for months. beginning of the day i moved them to a different tank to house the rhom. I took out everythink in the tank aside from two live sword plants i have in there to help keep my levels proper.

Like i said, everything seemed to be fine. Lights were OFF for sure. He just started going nuts at a glimpse of his reflection he saw in the tank... Very heartbroken. To make matters worse I sold my redbellies to be able to get this guy so now I dont even have and P's at all to care for


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## platinum1683 (Nov 17, 2006)

Wow sorry man that sucks.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

themailm4n said:


> Tank was cycled and crystal clear. It housed a schoal of red bellies for months. beginning of the day i moved them to a different tank to house the rhom. I took out everythink in the tank aside from two live sword plants i have in there to help keep my levels proper.
> 
> Like i said, everything seemed to be fine. Lights were OFF for sure. He just started going nuts at a glimpse of his reflection he saw in the tank... Very heartbroken. To make matters worse I sold my redbellies to be able to get this guy so now I dont even have and P's at all to care for


This is the second time you refer to your tank as not only having been 'cycled,' but 'crystal clear.'

I don't mean to be a penis, but the 'crystal clear' thing leads me to ask if you really know what 'cycling' is.
I was obviously suspicious in the beginning... but after primetime posted I figured it was legit.

I'm wondering now if it's possible that something else happened and an elaborate story was fabricated in an attempt to save face...?

Either way, it's a bummer about the fish... I'm sure it was a beaut.


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## Ibanez247 (Nov 9, 2006)

So what were your water params? Cyrstal clear water doesnt mean squat. I lost a rhom when I last moved cause I thought my water was fine. Turned out it wasnt and after acclimating him he died 15 minutes after being in the tank. Majority of the water was from the original setup too but some how my params changed enough to kill the poor guy. He acted a lot like how you described your rhom.


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## Lifer374 (Dec 5, 2003)

How did you go about acclimating him?


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## Tyrone5797 (Aug 25, 2007)

Sorry about the loss.


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## primetime3wise (Sep 28, 2003)

my worry is that the tank wasn't cycled properly and/or needed a good vac. he did say the rhom freaked out, kicked up gravel and debris, and then the result was a VERY cloudy tank. just because it was crystal clear before that doesn't mean anything, if enough debris settled onto the bottom.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

I'm gonna take a random stab at a possibility...

The tank was set up with the substrate not rinsed first.
No fish were introduced, no bacteria, no cycled media... nothing that would create a cycling process.

The beginner picked-up the term "cycle" somewhere and believed that by setting up a filter in the tank, it would "cycle."

When the rhom was put in the tank, the 'poison' water freaked it out and killed it.

Again, this is merely speculation.

No matter what the reality of the situation, it was a harsh (and probably expensive) lesson.
Hopefully a "lesson learned."

To the OP... please don't take our criticizm personally... stick with the hobby, properly prepare the tank for another fish and have another go at it.

The best thing you can do is stay with Piranha-fury.
You will absolutely learn more here than from any book or TV show on the planet.

I adamently believe that Piranha-fury is the most accurate source of piranha information that exists, and you're in company with the most educated, experienced piranha enthusiasts in the world.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

I disagree that a rhom can't die by smashing into the glass. I wouldn't call it suicide, since there would not be the intention of dying, but if it hits the glass hard enough it's very well possible the brains get damaged.
I mean, look at how close it is to the outside of the body and imagine a 14" crashing into the glass with all it's weight :










However I'm curious about the parameters, temperatures and schedules of refreshing the tank. Even with a well cycled tank, there is a good possibility that the difference between primes parameters and OP's params were too big, causing a shock.


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## FEEFA (Nov 19, 2007)

He said that the tank had reds in it so it probably was cycled, I'm wondering what the water params were though?

I think this was a freak case of a fish that just got totally stressed with the move.
Water params could have played a part but the fact that he says the rhom was constantly thrashing is def a sign of stress and that he was spooked for some reason.
I would call it a freak accident


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## primetime3wise (Sep 28, 2003)

^i've had a brutal year so far, with, i don't if anyone remembers, a juvi "hoplias aimara" jumping out of it's tank and then expiring.

i may, not sure 100% give caribe another shot at breeding i'm due for some kind of good luck...


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## themailm4n (Jul 31, 2010)

The tank was CYCLED just fine. I have had a schoal of redbellies and live plants in there for several months now and I get my water tested a local store on the 1st of every month. The parameters were more than fine. I would not try to buy a fish of this sophistocation without ensuring that it wasnt going into anything but the best possible water for him. 
As for as acclimating him, when i went to pick him up, I asked if it would be best to use the drip method or what Prime thought, but he explained that P's are hearty and I should just put him right in the tank when we got home. So again, as i said, with every light off in my house with the exception of the adjacent room, i carefully put him in the tank and he was fine for about an hour and a half. happy as hell. then when he started snapping his mouth at the glass i went for the sheet thinking he just needed to be in darkness and to de stress for a while.

The only thing that makes me believe he knocked himself out was the fact that at the beginning of this rant after his hour and a half of being docile, his first attempt at thrashing in the corner he hit himself so hard he floated on his side and appeared to be stunned for a second or two. Thats when i came back into his room and went with the sheet.

Maybe its just the fact that im having a really hard time dealing with this loss, and a few other elements that are eating away at me in my personal life that are stressing me out, but Piranha man your slanderous comments really want to make me put a hole through the wall. You dont know me, nor I you, but the fact that you come on here saying perhaps its an elaborate story to save face? and about how the "beginner" picked up the word cycle and put the rhom in "poisonious" water? I can handle constructive criticism, I just feel you could have handled voicing your opinion a little classier.

As for Prime, he is one of the best people I have had the oppertunity to deal with / encountered to date in this hobby. I appreciate the time and care he has taken before and during our negotiations, and his support during this difficult loss. Thank you Prime very much.


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## primetime3wise (Sep 28, 2003)

^it's no problem. i'm sure you had good intentions and weren't set out to do the rhom harm. whatever it was, could have been a freak accident, and i have to say some of the posts in this thread are a little overly presumptuous, it's a harsh experience.


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## martini (Jul 19, 2009)

I think injury is a possibility. When I moved my three RBPs to a 90g last month, one of them freaked, was thrashing around, and was trying to bury himself under the gravel. I was able to get him out, but I think he definitely had a mild concussion. He was not swimming quite right for a few hours (dazed from "the dig" I'm assuming), and then was just fine. The water params were fine, and the other two RBPs were fine from the outset. The one who freaked has been feeling dynamite since then. I think it is plausible that some fish have a harder time adjusting to new environments than others, but I guess it is hard to tell.

Sincere condolences on the loss. Damn, I can only imagine how tough it feels.


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

The only thing I can think of is a drastic change in PH from Prime's tank to yours or that when he stirred up the substrate there was a subsequent ammonia spike (if you dont vac), but I feel from your posts that you would indeed vac and try to provide the best environment for such an investment. Therefore, he must have bashed himself to death. Once again sorry for your loss and hope this unfortunate situation doesn't discourage you from P keeping.


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## primetime3wise (Sep 28, 2003)

martini said:


> I think injury is a possibility. When I moved my three RBPs to a 90g last month, one of them freaked, was thrashing around, and was trying to bury himself under the gravel. I was able to get him out, but I think he definitely had a mild concussion. He was not swimming quite right for a few hours (dazed from "the dig" I'm assuming), and then was just fine. The water params were fine, and the other two RBPs were fine from the outset. The one who freaked has been feeling dynamite since then. I think it is plausible that some fish have a harder time adjusting to new environments than others, but I guess it is hard to tell.
> 
> Sincere condolences on the loss. Damn, I can only imagine how tough it feels.


i'm starting to think that could have been it, esp. cosidering the huge size of this fish. being larger and a more powerful swimmer he could have really thrust himself into the side.

all this speculation though doesn't do a thing to change the result. all he can do for next time is make sure he is as prepared as possible and hope something like this never happens again.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

The only thing I still don't get is the "Reflection" thing.

Aquarium glass does not reflect.

Can you elaborate on this?


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## Sacrifice (Sep 24, 2006)

Piranha_man said:


> The only thing I still don't get is the "Reflection" thing.
> 
> *Aquarium glass does not reflect.*
> 
> Can you elaborate on this?


Under the right circumstances I believe that it can. I know that sometimes I would wipe down the outside of my tank with Windex and my Reds would go crazy chasing themselves along the tank. Heck it was the time that they were the most active. I think that it impaired their vision out of the tank and they simply saw themselves in the glass. Fun as crap to watch.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

I disagree.

I don't believe that any conditions render the glass reflective.


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## primetime3wise (Sep 28, 2003)

i don't know that it matters, in the sense that when the fish is stressed out it's not thinking about whether it can escape or where to, thus resulting in crasing into the side. it just knows it wants to get away from the stressful situation. i remember a lot of crashing into the sides with red bellies, if they were fully aware of the restrictions of a tank it would never happen.


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

Piranha_man said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I don't believe that any conditions render the glass reflective.


Both sides of my glass reflect; how could you not see it? Even when taking pics sometimes you see "two" fish.

My sanch attacks her own reflection all the time.


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## SERRAPYGO (Feb 4, 2003)

CombiChrist said:


> I disagree that a rhom can't die by smashing into the glass. I wouldn't call it suicide, since there would not be the intention of dying, but if it hits the glass hard enough it's very well possible the brains get damaged.
> I mean, look at how close it is to the outside of the body and imagine a 14" crashing into the glass with all it's weight :
> 
> 
> ...


Man, get real! Of course it's not suicide in the true sense. I suppose fatal brain damage is possible, but a very long tank would be needed to build up that kind of devastating speed. I've had all kinds of huge fish hit the side of a 125g so hard it made ME flinch!...but they never missed a beat afterwards. Plus, piranhas (especially rhoms) are tough as anvils and it would take one hell of water chemistry "shock" to kill one. Especially a 14 incher! 
This is an unfortunate freak occurance and I'm convinced "themailm4n" did nothing wrong. I believe his tank was cycled like he siad...and I believe he did nothing to trigger the fish to go berserk while acclimating it. I also don't buy into the reflective glass theory. We might just have to write this off as a bonefied mystery!


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

SERRAPYGO said:


> Man, get real! ....We might just have to write this off as a bonefied mystery!


Talking about getting real, you believe in mysteries instead of reason ?

I agree piranhas are tough, but nothing is impossible. I bet you never heard of a man dying by falling with his head on the curbstones, yet a friend of me did. Just a matter of bad luck and wrong angle of contact and the skull splits.
Saying water chemistry can't kill a 14 incher is just plain wrong. At that size and age, even stress of a movement can be fatal, let alone in combination with for example a pH shock.


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## banshee42096 (Apr 29, 2010)

its sad to hear of such a big p dying but we need to learn from this and move on i know my red bellys if you move to fast will hit everything in the tank at full tilt knocking off the heater ect.to get away i do believe its possible for a piranha especialy one that size and mass to hit the glass hard enough to kill itself.sorry for your loss.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

IMO he may of just knocked himself out. Being a large and powerfish in a bit too small tank he may of just nailed the glass hard. Ive heard of fish breaking jaws when smashing things really hard, but not compleatly knocking themselves out if he hits the right way im sure its possible.

I think we can only speculate now as to why the rhom started his tantrum.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

Soul Assassin said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I don't believe that any conditions render the glass reflective.


Both sides of my glass reflect; how could you not see it? Even when taking pics sometimes you see "two" fish.

My sanch attacks her own reflection all the time.
[/quote]

They only reflect to you, the outside observer looking through one pane of glass at another that sits 90 degrees from it.
From the inside, there is no reflection.


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## Criley (Jun 2, 2010)

Piranha_man said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I don't believe that any conditions render the glass reflective.


Both sides of my glass reflect; how could you not see it? Even when taking pics sometimes you see "two" fish.

My sanch attacks her own reflection all the time.
[/quote]

They only reflect to you, the outside observer looking through one pane of glass at another that sits 90 degrees from it.
From the inside, there is no reflection.








[/quote]

Have you been inside of a fish tank?


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

Piranha_man said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I don't believe that any conditions render the glass reflective.


Both sides of my glass reflect; how could you not see it? Even when taking pics sometimes you see "two" fish.

My sanch attacks her own reflection all the time.
[/quote]

They only reflect to you, the outside observer looking through one pane of glass at another that sits 90 degrees from it.
From the inside, there is no reflection.








[/quote]

That's an interesting point but still does not explain why my _S. Sanchezi_ attacks herself in the "relfection" by swimming all normal and all of a sudden twists and bumps the glass in a threatening manner.


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## themailm4n (Jul 31, 2010)

When standing on the side of the tank looking into it seeing down the length of the entire tank, i could see the rhom swimming away from me in real life, and i could see the face of the rhom in the glass on the other side. 
I could see the huge red eye of the rhom take notice of ist "reflection" and it would turn its entire body towards it and snap its jaws at it as if it were truely another fish.


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## Lifer374 (Dec 5, 2003)

Piranha_man said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I don't believe that any conditions render the glass reflective.


Both sides of my glass reflect; how could you not see it? Even when taking pics sometimes you see "two" fish.

My sanch attacks her own reflection all the time.
[/quote]

They only reflect to you, the outside observer looking through one pane of glass at another that sits 90 degrees from it.
From the inside, there is no reflection.








[/quote]

I've always thought of it this way...
If the ceiling lights are on in my living room at night and I look out the window into the dark from inside, I see my reflection in the window. That if the lights above the aquarium were brighter then the ambient light in the room, then the fish as a result would see his reflection. 
I could be wrong, just the way I've always viewed it. And no, I'm not dunking my head in my tank to be sure.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Soul Assassin said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I don't believe that any conditions render the glass reflective.


Both sides of my glass reflect; how could you not see it? Even when taking pics sometimes you see "two" fish.

My sanch attacks her own reflection all the time.
[/quote]

They only reflect to you, the outside observer looking through one pane of glass at another that sits 90 degrees from it.
From the inside, there is no reflection.








[/quote]

That's an interesting point but still does not explain why my _S. Sanchezi_ attacks herself in the "relfection" by swimming all normal and all of a sudden twists and bumps the glass in a threatening manner.
[/quote]

That's a misinterpretation. Your fish does not attack it's reflection it doesn't even see, it attacks the closest piece of glass it feels due to vibrations reflected, that are sensed by the lateral line. He feels "something" is there, but sees nothing. Hence the attack.


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

[/quote]

That's a misinterpretation. Your fish does not attack it's reflection it doesn't even see, it attacks the closest piece of glass it feels due to vibrations reflected, that are sensed by the lateral line. He feels "something" is there, but sees nothing. Hence the attack.
[/quote]

I dont understand what you're saying. What vibrations? And if it is these vibrations why does she do it in the same one or two spots over and over. Why not in different places all over the tank?

Anyway, I agree with Lifer.


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## 02stampede (Jul 20, 2010)

Lifer374 said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I don't believe that any conditions render the glass reflective.


Both sides of my glass reflect; how could you not see it? Even when taking pics sometimes you see "two" fish.

My sanch attacks her own reflection all the time.
[/quote]

They only reflect to you, the outside observer looking through one pane of glass at another that sits 90 degrees from it.
From the inside, there is no reflection.








[/quote]

I've always thought of it this way...
If the ceiling lights are on in my living room at night and I look out the window into the dark from inside, I see my reflection in the window. That if the lights above the aquarium were brighter then the ambient light in the room, then the fish as a result would see his reflection. 
I could be wrong, just the way I've always viewed it. And no, I'm not dunking my head in my tank to be sure.








[/quote]
Well said. A single pane of glass will reflect in certain lighting situations. We have all seen our reflection in a window before..









Anyways, it is what it is. The TC is clearly upset about his loss after making every attempt to be successful. Maybe a mistake was made, maybe it was a freak accident. Nobody will ever know without having been there to observe behavior and test the water at the time of death. The real focus should be getting this guy back on his feet and giving it another go.


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## Sheppard (Jul 8, 2004)

Ya sorry to hear, I know the exact feeling.

Shrug it off and move on. Start thinking of the next awesome fish you want to care for. You'll feel much better.


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## PiranhaMike661 (Jul 9, 2010)

themailm4n said:


> The tank was CYCLED just fine. I have had a schoal of redbellies and live plants in there for several months now and I get my water tested a local store on the 1st of every month. The parameters were more than fine. I would not try to buy a fish of this sophistocation without ensuring that it wasnt going into anything but the best possible water for him.
> As for as acclimating him, when i went to pick him up, I asked if it would be best to use the drip method or what Prime thought, but he explained that P's are hearty and I should just put him right in the tank when we got home. So again, as i said, with every light off in my house with the exception of the adjacent room, i carefully put him in the tank and he was fine for about an hour and a half. happy as hell. then when he started snapping his mouth at the glass i went for the sheet thinking he just needed to be in darkness and to de stress for a while.
> 
> The only thing that makes me believe he knocked himself out was the fact that at the beginning of this rant after his hour and a half of being docile, his first attempt at thrashing in the corner he hit himself so hard he floated on his side and appeared to be stunned for a second or two. Thats when i came back into his room and went with the sheet.
> ...


I feel terrible for your loss and am definitely sympethetic to your $hitty situation. But I'm just gonna throw it out there that you should invest on your own master test kit instead of relying on the fish store for accurate results on your water quality. Not sure how they're doing it but I know my LFS just uses the dipstick method, which is definitely not accurate enough for me. Also, I'm not sure about anybody else here but I test my water weekly, rather than monthy. Anyway, just some suggestions....take it or leave it. Also, don't get downhearted and keep up with P's. I'm sure that you can find some other beautiful specimens in the classifieds. Good Luck!


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## themailm4n (Jul 31, 2010)

[/quote]Not sure how they're doing it but I know my LFS just uses the dipstick method, which is definitely not accurate enough for me.[/quote]

Yeah they go through the whole vial method and shake each one and let em sit. the whole shabang.

Thanks for being so supportive everyone. I have gotten a few leads from some people on here about some lovely looking Blue Diamond Serra's. Right now im just hemorrhaging money so im just gona have to keep some cheap tropicals in my tank till i am able to get another P here...


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

^^ Yeah, I feel the dropper/vial method of water testing is the way to go.

You ought to purchase a kit and start doing it on your own.
It's easy... just read the directions on the cards supplied.









(Doing your own water testing is an integral part of aquarium keeping... as simple and necessary as checking your own oil is part of being a car owner.)


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## Gigante Pirana (Apr 23, 2004)

CombiChrist said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I don't believe that any conditions render the glass reflective.


Both sides of my glass reflect; how could you not see it? Even when taking pics sometimes you see "two" fish.

My sanch attacks her own reflection all the time.
[/quote]

They only reflect to you, the outside observer looking through one pane of glass at another that sits 90 degrees from it.
From the inside, there is no reflection.








[/quote]

That's an interesting point but still does not explain why my _S. Sanchezi_ attacks herself in the "relfection" by swimming all normal and all of a sudden twists and bumps the glass in a threatening manner.
[/quote]

That's a misinterpretation. Your fish does not attack it's reflection it doesn't even see, it attacks the closest piece of glass it feels due to vibrations reflected, that are sensed by the lateral line. He feels "something" is there, but sees nothing. Hence the attack.
[/quote]

On contrary, they do see their reflection and do attack the image they see. It explains why many large rhoms have chimples because they spend their time trying to get at the image/reflection. As well, for those who never heard of this but is rather common knowledge and occurrence, put a bunch of pygos in a tank with no substate and will see them dashing about the bottom chasing their reflection.


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## rhom15 (Dec 20, 2009)

man im so sorry

















































that sucks i had a friend who had a arowona went crazy in the tank and cracked it he also died it was about 15 inchs man again im sorry im crying for you


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## Dolphinswin (Jun 26, 2010)

Not a single pic was taken of this instance huh? Weird.


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