# NY Law



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I went over NY law on pirana ownership and came up with this (the important parts are _italicized_) :



> Except as provided in subdivision 3 and subdivision 4; (a) all species of fish taken outside the state, except trout, black bass, muskellunge and landlocked salmon other than Atlantic salmon, may be imported and transported by any means and in any number, and may be possessed, bought and sold without permit or license, during the open season; (b) Atlantic salmon taken outside the state may be imported, transported, bought and sold at any time. Except as provided in subdivision 3 and subdivision 4, any person may, during the closed season, without license or permit, and without limitation by section 11-1707, transport into the state, buy, possess, transport and sell, lake sturgeon, lake trout, whitefish, pickerel, pike, walleye and striped bass taken outside the state, provided he keeps a record and enters therein the name, residence and post office address of every person from whom he buys and every person to whom he sells or ships such fish. But this subdivision does not require that a record be kept of persons to whom such fish are sold for personal or home consumption, nor by persons who purchase in this state for consumption and not for resale. A person required by this subdivision to keep records shall permit the department or its agents to examine all books and papers relating to such purchase and sale at any time and shall on demand furnish invoices, freight or express receipts used insuch transactions. No person shall sell, offer for sale or expose for sale, underthe name or designation of Lake Champlain fish, any fish other than fish that have been taken from the waters of Lake Champlain, its bays, coves or tributaries, the Missisquoi Bay or the Richelieu River. No person shall wilfully and with intent to deceive, affix, apply or annex, or use in connection with any fish, or any container of the same, any words or other symbols, tending falsely to identify the origin of the contents as the waters described in this paragraph. No person shall possess or transport into the state any fish except eels caught in that part of Missisquoi Bay in Lake Champlain lying in the Province of Quebec or in the Richelieu River. Fish of the following species taken outside the state shall not be bought or sold or otherwise trafficked in if they are of less than the size limits specified in this subdivision or in the sections to which it refers: striped bass, fluke or summer flounder, blue porgie, weakfish, mackerel, sea bass, king fish, cod fish, blackfish, winter flounder, all as specified in section 13-0339; lake trout, pickerel, Atlantic sturgeon, Atlantic (landlocked)salmon, whitefish, northern pike, all as specified in regulations of the department. Fish named in subdivision 4 of less than the size limits specified, may be imported, transported and possessed as provided in section 11-1707. *No person shall import, export, own, possess, acquire or dispose of live piranha fish (Serrasalmus, Rooseveltiella or Pyrocentrus), * grass carp (Ctenopharyngodon idella) or hybrid grass carp within the state without a license or permit issued at the discretion of the department for scientific, biological or exhibition purposes.


If I were a smart lawyer I could easily argue that Serrasalmus species are not "piranha". Also "Rooseveltiella" is not a valid name. "Pyrocentrus" is mis-spelled and should read "Pygocentrus". And what they are prohibiting are "piranha fish" not "Pirambebas" which are Serrasalmus, Pristobrycon, and Pygopristis. I would cite State of Oregon vs Magallanes as the precedent and reverse any confiscation of fishes not "true" piranas that would apply only to Pygocentrus.

I would also cite American Fisheries Society reports that Pygocentrus nattereri, the most common 'true' piranha would not survive in cold water in NY.


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## mantis (May 16, 2003)

Interesting, thanks for sharing Frank


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## camotekid (Sep 21, 2003)

The genus *Pyrocentrus* might probably something that breathes fire, who knows...


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## MoeMZA (Feb 19, 2004)

Hey HASTATUS, I have this speeding ticket and the COP................................are you a lawyer?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> MoeMZA Posted on Mar 21 2004, 06:43 PM
> Hey HASTATUS, I have this speeding ticket and the COP................................are you a lawyer?










You think?


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## Red Eyes (Nov 25, 2003)

Thanks for the info!!

Now what was this? [/QUOTE] ... State of Oregon vs Magallanes ...


> Do you want to elaborate?


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## mechanic_joe (Dec 4, 2003)

Theres always a loop hole if you look hard enough... Good info Frank









Joe.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Red Eyes Posted on Mar 21 2004, 07:30 PM
> Thanks for the info!!
> 
> Now what was this? ... State of Oregon vs Magallanes ... Do you want to elaborate?


Here you go:

State of Oregon vs Magallanes, a study of case law.


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## fishofury (May 10, 2003)

Wow I never knew that happend. Great post


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## losts0ul916 (Nov 19, 2003)

Does that mean that if I moved to New York then I could legally own a Py*G*ocentrus species without any consequences because its there in fine print in there state law as *NO* owning any Py*R*ocentrus species?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> losts0ul916 Posted on Mar 21 2004, 08:30 PM
> Does that mean that if I moved to New York then I could legally own a PyGocentrus species without any consequences *because its there in fine print in there state law as NO owning any PyRocentrus species*?


No, they would look at the "intent of the law" to make their ruling. In this case, they are prohibiting a dangerous species known as a "piranha fish". If you went to NY with a Serrasalmus species and they confiscated it, you could argue quite effectively in court that fish is not a "piranha fish" as described in NY Statute. You would have a better than 50% chance of winning it and having your fish returned to you as long as the proper law (as in Oregon vs Magallanes) were cited.


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## losts0ul916 (Nov 19, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > losts0ul916 Posted on Mar 21 2004, 08:30 PM
> > Does that mean that if I moved to New York then I could legally own a PyGocentrus species without any consequences *because its there in fine print in there state law as NO owning any PyRocentrus species*?
> 
> 
> No, they would look at the "intent of the law" to make their ruling. In this case, they are prohibiting a dangerous species known as a "piranha fish". If you went to NY with a Serrasalmus species and they confiscated it, you could argue quite effectively in court that fish is not a "piranha fish" as described in NY Statute. You would have a better than 50% chance of winning it and having your fish returned to you as long as the proper law (as in Oregon vs Magallanes) were cited.


 That sucks.







Did you win your case though Frank?


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## Red Eyes (Nov 25, 2003)

Congrats hastatus!!! Well done!! Its encouraging to see that if you have all the facts the "little guy" (no offense!) can stand up to the big guy!!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> losts0ul916 Posted on Mar 21 2004, 08:45 PM
> QUOTE (hastatus @ Mar 21 2004, 12:40 PM)
> QUOTE
> losts0ul916 Posted on Mar 21 2004, 08:30 PM
> ...


Yes I did. Later I went to the legislature and argued for changing the law to legalize piranas. It was approved 25 to 3.


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## losts0ul916 (Nov 19, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > losts0ul916 Posted on Mar 21 2004, 08:45 PM
> > QUOTE (hastatus @ Mar 21 2004, 12:40 PM)
> > QUOTE
> > losts0ul916 Posted on Mar 21 2004, 08:30 PM
> ...


 Can you come do that for us in California also? Everything here is illegal.







Damn Republicans!!!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> losts0ul916 Posted on Mar 22 2004, 04:24 AM
> QUOTE (hastatus @ Mar 21 2004, 01:41 PM)
> QUOTE
> losts0ul916 Posted on Mar 21 2004, 08:45 PM
> ...


California law is more specific; _All species of the genera *Serrasalmus*, Serrasalmo, *Pygocentrus*, Taddyella, Rooseveltiella, and *Pygopristis* (Piranhas)._ However, the statute is wrong in one regard, its lists the species as "piranhas". Not all are piranhas but pirambebas. Also the statute itself does not prohibit "Pristobrycon". So if you owned Pristobrycon and they came and confiscated you could argue in court the fish is not "illegal" because it is not mentioned in Statute. By statute your fish would have to be returned to you for not meeting the definition, even if they argued it was a "piranha" because it is not.


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## losts0ul916 (Nov 19, 2003)

Damn Democrats!!!


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

Very interesting...







!


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## Death in #'s (Apr 29, 2003)

sweet


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## Atlanta Braves Baby! (Mar 12, 2003)

Frank... what is the common name of the P known as "Pristobrycon"?


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## redbellyjx © (Jan 26, 2004)

hey frank, i have a question that kinda has to do with the classification of piranhas. in some books ive been reading, they have listed natts, caribe and piraya species as belonging to the genus serrasalmus. could you eloborate? are these just out of date books that i have been reading?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> redbellyjx Posted on Mar 23 2004, 02:00 AM
> hey frank, i have a question that kinda has to do with the classification of piranhas. in some books ive been reading, they have listed natts, caribe and piraya species as belonging to the genus serrasalmus. could you eloborate? are these just out of date books that i have been reading?
> 
> *Machado-Allison (1982, 87) revised the generic makeup and reinstated the group as Pygocentrus, Serrasalmus, Pristobrycon, and Pygopristis from the original Norman 1929 placement and Gery 1972,77 revisions. So, yes, the books are outdated.*
> ...


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## redbellyjx © (Jan 26, 2004)

thanks for the info frank


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## Noe (Aug 22, 2003)

Thank you for the info. Frank............


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## Atlanta Braves Baby! (Mar 12, 2003)

Thanks frank


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