# Tank Full Of Nest.. How To Save As Many As Possible



## MFNRyan

So once again my Piranha's are breeding. I got rid of one of my Peru wilds to stop this from happening cause they freakin go nuts with it. This time however.. I have a nest of Cariba.. My smallest Cariba is gaurding one nest.. My smallest red is guarding the other.. Weird I know.. My two biggest red's one wild an one not sure of are beat the hell up also... So the last few times I did this I had fake small grass all over the bottom of the tank.. I let them grow whoever made it made it.. I didn't care. Ended up with only 18ish.. This time I would like to save all the cariba if possible an some reds to bigger sizes as my LFS wants to buy them from me. So some tips on making this last an getting the most fish. How long do I have until they are fry also.. I believe last time it was somewhere around 2 weeks but I didn't keep a close eye.

P.S. No peat was used.. I opened the window in that room due to some water spillage.. kept the door shut.. it is the rainy time of year and for about a week has been raining... Window was only opened two days. Last night I shut it an this am I find eggs.. at both sides of the tank.. Cariba didn't change colors that much.. did get darker, never lost the red.. Red bellies will you seen my post on having black ones then the next day almost all were black... Well I guess they were horney..


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## MPG

BRUNER247 said:


> Wait couple days till they hatch n fall into gravel n siphon them out. Need 1-3 5-10gal tanks, airstone, pump, heater, brine shrimp eggs, salt, & 2 brine shrimp hatcheries. You have a week before they'll have the yoke used up & accept bbs. 75-90% daily water changes with parents water until they eat bbs. After they eat add a hob with a pre-filter over intake. Feed bbs shrimp twice a day. One hatchery will feed twice a day while the other is hatching them for the next days feedings. GL.


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## MFNRyan

humm.. I think I picked up about half of what I need to do there.. lol


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## Smoke

Are you saying that you have Cariba eggs? Or some type of hybrid Cariba/RBP? Or just the RBP dropped eggs?

Also, you mentioned this happened before? Did you have baby cariba fry?


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## BRUNER247

Guess I've already spoken. Lmmfao.


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## Guest

From what I get from it the OP has 3 reds and 3 cariba. He has one nest by the reds and one nest by the cariba. I would wait until they hatch, then syphon them into a 5-10G tank, keeping the reds separate from the cariba. Take pics and document everything.


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## MFNRyan

KSLS.. that is correct. I didn't see who the mating pair were. Right now I have a nest in the middle with a Cariba on guard and a nest in the corner with my small red on guard. I don't know if I have a hybrid cariba/ RBP nest.. I didn't see any of the making just the on guard this am. LOL.. I guess i need to hurry an buy a small tank get it cycling... How long do I have until some action is needed to be taken on these eggs? Also do I siphon the eggs over or the hatched fry? Then put just an air stone in it with some aquarium salt. My last babies I fed brine shrimp too until they were bigger and started eating with the others.. should I do the same here? Also do the parent RBP need to be with the babies or do I just move them to a solo tank bare bottom.. After they are all hatched then I need to run a filter on it with some sponge in the intake tube so it doesn't suck any babies up. Does this filter need to be pre cycled? Should I maybe be running it on my tank now to get it there..


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## MFNRyan

Sorry, I'm using my phone camera because I'm about to leave to a party. here are some quick pic's though. Both fish just swim in circles around the nest. The cariba will corck screw upward and then back down.. run anything off that gets even close to it... I'm pretty sure he is the one that wrecked house on my two biggest RBP.. they look rough. I need to add some salt to the tank to help them heal up faster.. The RBP.. he will swim in circles around an sort of run the other fish off.. but he will also swim off an leave the nest empty a lot of times.. follow the other fish around an let them run him off from the nest. The cariba does swim off some but not like the red?? Again sorry for the quality.. they don;t sit still an it was done with the phone cam..


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## BRUNER247

Salts for hatching brine NOT for healing beatup fish or fry.


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## jp80911

do you know how old are the cariba?


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## BanditBrother

Good luck buddy and keep us posted!!!


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## MFNRyan

BRUNER247 said:


> Good luck buddy and keep us posted!!!


Thanks and I certainly will


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## MFNRyan

Here they both are guarding the nest.. if one leaves the other stays.. it's never left alone now. Mostly they both sit an swim in circles over the nest


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## BRUNER247

Can't wait to see how this turns out. Gl.


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## MFNRyan

So whats the deal with the white spots on some of the eggs then? I'll try to get a pic. Will I be able to tell right away if they are cariba.. wonder why there are two fish over the egss now?? The cariba has been over them from the start! I have a feeling I'm really going to F*** this up.. To have fish this young breed an have possible cariba is so lucky an here I'll probably mess it all up!! lol.. Going to get a 55g fry tank right now... HOw much water do I need to change daily? more then 50 percent


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## BRUNER247

white spots are signs of fungus.


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## Guest

Use water from the parents tank, then do 50% water changes daily. White spots are a sign that the eggs have not been fertilized


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## MFNRyan

So you think I can pull this off or what? Sounds like here soon.. I need a small tank with a bubblier in it. Need to swap most the water out of the tank. After a few days when they are ready to eat I need to move them to a 10g tank, put a sponge over the filter so they don't get sucked up an start feeding them brine shrimp.. I fed brine shrimp last time 3 times a day.. never pulled them from the main tank.. I ended up with about 18 fish.. so how long do I need to leave them in the 10g.. An how will I know if I got a hybrid cross?? I guess I need to keep both nest separate or what


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## BRUNER247

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## MFNRyan

Best picture of the nest I can get... All the eggs are brown.. yesterday every egg was brown today still all brown just some have a little white pot in the center of it... Wish I had your expertise on this riht now.. so I knew what to do here an was able to raise as many of these as I could... Especially if they are cariba hybrid.. I mean is this even possible?? People that are way better at this take all the right steps an can not get Cariba to spawn like I have gotten lucky enough to do.. even at a young age.. so I don't want to screw this up.. They got to be worth something big to the hobby right.. I need to save as much of these.. man!


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## BRUNER247

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## MFNRyan

Why to Cariba not fan egg's usually?? I'm excited an worried lol.. I'm about to head to the fish store.. pick up a couple small tanks.. two 5 gal tanks an two 10 gallon tanks.. A couple of heaters an a couple HOB filters.. I'm watching the cariba right now.. she like swimming down at the nest like he is rubbing on it but in a circle motion.. then he will sit still.. then swim down at it like he is rubbing it for a little while more.. The red is gone now too.. not sitting anywhere near it..


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## MFNRyan

ok I got three 5 gal tanks, two ten gal tanks. New filters for each 10g and air pumps for each tank, and new heater for each 10g. I will divide the cariba babies up, put all the red's babies in one of the 5g.. Then when they are bigger put the two 5g's with cariba babies in each 10g and divide the reds between the two tanks. I also bought a lot of baby brine shrimp, frozen ones cause I can't get live at any local store. So I hope this works!!!


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## BRUNER247

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## BRUNER247

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## MFNRyan

I was going to soak the brine in hot water before I dropped it in the tank. How long do I have until I need to start feeding them? So I need to drain off the water from the bucket an add just the fry to the 10g tank? I got small ones cause that's what you suggested.. I can go buy a bigger one if I need too??? Can I net the baby fry to add to the nursery tank or should I pour them? I'll do the daily water changes like you saId.. 70-90% I got a 30-60 filter for the tanks to help with filtration.. its rated for a 60g tank.. this should help keep things in check right? I realized it not being cycled is going to really make this tough.. what do I do about the few days to a week that I don't run the filter just the bubble's. It won't really fit on any of my tanks I filled it with sponge I don't think it has a very strong suction so the babies shouldn't have a problem getting stuck on the thing.. hopefully.. i'm nervous about messing this up


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## BRUNER247

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## MFNRyan

That's why I sold my other peru wild caught.. they wouldn't stop spawning.. I didn't care though.. whatever made it made it.. but this time I could have something super rare.. an want as many to live as possible


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## MFNRyan

Let me ask you.. do you know of anyone who has cross breeds of any sort? Do you know what I should expect to see from these babies if they are a cross or any way we will be able to tell they are??


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## hastatus

Cariba and nattereri do not crossbreed. If the female dropped eggs and a male nattereri used its milt, the eggs might not be viable.


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## BRUNER247

How do you know they won't cross Frank?


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## MFNRyan

The cariba is fanning the nest.. it was swimming circles over it with a red.. my biggest red earlier on.. its been alone fanning the nest for the most part though.. This is the smallest nest an has more white eggs then the other.. I would still say half are brown colored an look good.. I hope they hatch.. have you heard of this happening frank? With a cariba and a red not the eggs not making it


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## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> How do you know they won't cross Frank?


Because P cariba is a different species altogether than P nattereri. They are not predisposed to crossbreed like cichlids. Which can crossbreed.


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## MFNRyan

Well I have lots of pictures an we will see what happens in the next few days.. I hope it works.. now I have my doubts though

I just went an checked on the eggs since the lights are set to go off soon.. some of the eggs are empty an floating now.. some are moving around.. is this an egg that did not take or a hatched egg.. I seen 4 or 5 like this so far


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## BRUNER247

They're hatching. Probably by morning it'll look like they're gone. They hatched n wiggled into gravel. I think they could cross.


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## MFNRyan

Well It's coming from both nest.. I'm also getting hollow eggs floating around. I have picture proof of the cariba n red together.. if they take who knows.. frank has been around a long time.. he is almost always correct on this stuff.. for the eggs sake.. i hope he's wrong this time lol


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## MFNRyan

Here took some better pictures with my digital camera.. found it is easier to see the eggs with the flash on.. I think both nest are hatching.. they seem to be getting smaller, I see empty shells floating to the top an a lot of the eggs are wiggling around..

Some proof of the cariba an red together.. the cariba never leaves the nest. always guarding it an moving in circles around it. I seen the two swimming in circles before an every so often the red comes an sits over the nest for a little while.. then swims off.. I focused on the cariba nest cause that is the one everyone is questioning the most.. The Cariba never stops patrolling the nest.. circling always so so busy lol

Any certain pic you would like I can take as well


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## hastatus

MFNRyan said:


> The cariba is fanning the nest.. it was swimming circles over it with a red.. my biggest red earlier on.. its been alone fanning the nest for the most part though.. This is the smallest nest an has more white eggs then the other.. I would still say half are brown colored an look good.. I hope they hatch.. have you heard of this happening frank? With a cariba and a red not the eggs not making it


Its not unheard of. But rare.


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## BRUNER247

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## MFNRyan

The Cariba is always fanning the nest.. the rbp has only stayed close to it twice he is not a part of the other nest what so ever... An I seen the two swimming in a circle but I thought it was them fighting for that side of the tank. It wasn't until the next day when i seen the nest that I realized they were probably spawning. The cariba never leaves the nest and circles it all the time.. it was very hard to catch it over the center of the nest.. I noticed after he runs someone off from close to the nest he goes straight to the center. When the coast is clear he goes back to circling the nest. So in the one picture you can see he has just ran one of the fish off an is now in the center of the nest. I had the cam set to take 15 pics per shot that's how I caught the pic. The other nest is a smaller red always on guard.


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## MFNRyan

Ok the eggs are hatched.. I moved them to seperate tanks today.. look like sperms in there lol.. Do I need to start the water changes now?


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## 0S1R1S

Holy sh*t this thread is getting intense. I want some cariba babies hybrid or not Ryan!


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## jp80911

doesn't hurt to do frequent small wc with matching temp from parent's tank so you can start today


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## hastatus

I shared this thread with a friend of mine. A professor of ichthyology. Well versed on piranhas. I told him my opinion and he said the following.." Could happen. They don't meet in the wild so wouldn't necessarily know the difference."

Hybridization, highly unlikely. P cariba taking over a spawning nest from P nattereri? More probable.


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## MFNRyan

Thanks Frank.. Like I mentioned in my PM to ya.. I can see a Cariba taking over a nest because he was confused an fighting the red off until he is dead.. I do not see the true male of the nest just giving up on the cariba an letting him have the nest.. I think some nasty sh!t would happen?? Also had I not seen the two spawning.. swimming in a circle at each other I wouldn't lean so much towards they actually did.. but the night before I seen this behavior.. just thought nothing of it because why would those two breed,... how could I have a breeding cariba.. an it's to early for my younger fish to breed anyway.. it wasn't until I seen the eggs the next day with the red over the center of the nest an the Carbia on guard that I put two an two together.. Who knows.. if they did cross or hybrid's are formed.. Are they going to be noticeably different an able to tell them from a normal Cariba or Red.. That is what I'm hoping for.. I don't want to send off for DNA to only find out the fish is a hybrid but looks just the same.. 
(sorry didn't see you wrote here or wouldn't have wrote you twice)



0S1R1S said:


> Holy sh*t this thread is getting intense. I want some cariba babies hybrid or not Ryan!


Hey man.. I'll get in touch with you on this.. Got a lot of guys wanting some.. as of right now I have thousands of eggs anyway so should be able to work something out.. also tossing the idea of selling the Manny.. Still a distant idea though


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## hastatus

MFNRyan said:


> Holy sh*t this thread is getting intense. I want some cariba babies hybrid or not Ryan!


Hey man.. I'll get in touch with you on this.. Got a lot of guys wanting some.. as of right now I have thousands of eggs anyway so should be able to work something out.. also tossing the idea of selling the Manny.. Still a distant idea though
[/quote]

As I said, the chances of hybridization is nearly worse than -0-. I'm sure the male cariba (if that's what it is) simply confused. If the fry look like P. cariba then you have an issue to confront and document. I would certainly think about pulling those nattereri out of there soon and leave the cariba alone to see if you wil have better breeding luck.


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## BRUNER247

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## MFNRyan

I don't know how to tell the fry apart. Never seen cariba fry. Right now they look like sperm with eyes

I am documenting everything I can with a lot of pictures. I know I seen the two of these interacting the entire way through the process. I do see how rare it is to get cariba to breed and even more rare if ever to happen in a mix.. but I don't see that ruling it out as an option. They never meet in the wild an people can barely get cariba to breed in the home tank.. So this would be new waters.. just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. I will send a few babies somewhere to have a DNA test done.. I'll get to the bottom.. if it turns out nothing happened then at least I did what i could to find out. If it turns out something did happen though.. Then we would be breaking new ground an science would have something else to include in there studies. Just by the rarity of cariba breeding in the home tank means this is something that has not been tried I'm sure.. so who says it can't happen?? An they don't meet in the wild.. the species itself is very diverse but also relatively close??? Not saying anyone is wrong.. but also not ruling the idea out until I know for fact it didn't happen. Plus if they did it once there is a good chance they will do it again.. My camera will be rolling lol


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## hastatus

MFNRyan said:


> I don't know how to tell the fry apart. Never seen cariba fry. Right now they look like sperm with eyes
> 
> I am documenting everything I can with a lot of pictures. I know I seen the two of these interacting the entire way through the process. I do see how rare it is to get cariba to breed and even more rare if ever to happen in a mix.. but I don't see that ruling it out as an option. They never meet in the wild an people can barely get cariba to breed in the home tank.. So this would be new waters.. just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. I will send a few babies somewhere to have a DNA test done.. I'll get to the bottom.. if it turns out nothing happened then at least I did what i could to find out. If it turns out something did happen though.. Then we would be breaking new ground an science would have something else to include in there studies. Just by the rarity of cariba breeding in the home tank means this is something that has not been tried I'm sure.. so who says it can't happen?? An they don't meet in the wild.. the species itself is very diverse but also relatively close??? Not saying anyone is wrong.. but also not ruling the idea out until I know for fact it didn't happen. Plus if they did it once there is a good chance they will do it again.. My camera will be rolling lol


Good luck.


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## Smoke

Why not try to raise the fry and just wait until they grow a little to determine what they are? They grow rapidly and shouldn't take too long to find out. The major concern I see here is making it to that point. Once there, then you can worry about what species it is etc. This is just my opinion however.


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## hastatus

Smoke said:


> Why not try to raise the fry and just wait until they grow a little to determine what they are? They grow rapidly and shouldn't take too long to find out. The major concern I see here is making it to that point. Once there, then you can worry about what species it is etc. This is just my opinion however.


Pretty much what I said in a pm. Its a good opinion. Saves $$$$'s.


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## MFNRyan

I will give it a few months first for sure. More answers could come from some early stages in life


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## hastatus

MFNRyan said:


> I will give it a few months first for sure. More answers could come from some early stages in life


Then again, chances are also good you might have had cariba spawn. If so, you have a sure shot at being the first to document.


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## MFNRyan

Really? I thought people have done this.. especially when AS and AE got 1" Cariba babies in??? I didn't think babies were easy to get in the wild an could make the trip over to here.. especially if they have to stop in Canada first.. I thought someone was breeding these in the home.. If not will be very cool to have first documentation! How long does it take to get their spot? Couple months or couple weeks?


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## hastatus

MFNRyan said:


> Really? I thought people have done this.. especially when AS and AE got 1" Cariba babies in??? I didn't think babies were easy to get in the wild an could make the trip over to here.. especially if they have to stop in Canada first.. I thought someone was breeding these in the home.. If not will be very cool to have first documentation! How long does it take to get their spot? Couple months or couple weeks?


As I told you before, there is little on record about cariba spawning. The fry you see come wild when they are readily caught.

The only semi documented case was Jim Smith a former biologist and fish store owner.

The spot developed at about 1 1/2 to 2 in.


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## Guest

So this is where all the hybrid talk is coming from.









Mad last couple pages excluding bruners edited . posts.

Best of luck


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## bob351

amazing job man... good luck


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## hastatus

Traveller said:


> So this is where all the hybrid talk is coming from.
> 
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> Mad last couple pages excluding bruners edited . posts.
> 
> Best of luck


Bruner is indeed an amazing guy...sort of in a perverted way


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## memento

I'm not a scientist, but please keep in mind piranhas are species trained in survival. The strongest survive.
So hybrid theories are, imo, very unlikely. Most crossbreed leads to infertile offspring and that is against all "survival of the fittest" theories.

And yes, P.cariba has spawned in captivity. Pretty sure about that, for I've read several documentings of it that have lots of factors in common. But given the circumstances I think it's a P.nattereri nest.


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## MFNRyan

What circumstances would that be Memento? Just wondering... I guess we will see what happens in the next month or so... I've seen a lot of weird stuff with this.. Two nest at once red's an cariba and a cariba covering a nest.. super weird stuff


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## memento

Main common factor in cariba breedings seems to be seasonal simulations. Not just adjusting temperatures and waterlevels, but also allowing the parameters to get worse by turning of the filters and a period of non-feeding.
In the hobby we consider it "right" to keep params spot on all year round, while in real life the dry season means different parameters compared to wet season.
I can't remember what study it is, but there is one showing they use energy from their muscles for gonad development, instead of like some other fish species, use fat from body cavities.
In the aquaria, most caribas are overfed all year round though, storing more energy in the body cavities than in the muscles.

But these are all just assumptions, nothing factual


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## MFNRyan

memento said:


> Main common factor in cariba breedings seems to be seasonal simulations. Not just adjusting temperatures and waterlevels, but also allowing the parameters to get worse by turning of the filters and a period of non-feeding.
> In the hobby we consider it "right" to keep params spot on all year round, while in real life the dry season means different parameters compared to wet season.
> I can't remember what study it is, but there is one showing they use energy from their muscles for gonad development, instead of like some other fish species, use fat from body cavities.
> In the aquaria, most caribas are overfed all year round though, storing more energy in the body cavities than in the muscles.
> 
> But these are all just assumptions, nothing factual


Very very glad you said this memento.. JP can back me on this also. My 125g I have recently added two new filters to.. FX5 an this aquatop everyone talked so well about. I added the new filters because it was taking my tank to long to catch up after feeding. These fish were usually fed every other day.. sometimes everyday an sometimes every 3rd day. I spoke with JP an we decided to help the filters in this tank establish it would be best to let them go for an extended period of time.. with no water changes an cut back on feedings.. So I moved my other mag 250 to the 55g for the time an let just these guys run.. keeping an eye to make sure water did not get to bad, Also did no water changes or added any water. The ammonia an nitrites were higher then normal mostly ammonia. While on this period i also cut the feedings back.. no frozen food what so ever and only did pellets maybe once a week if that even.. It was at the end of this period I spilled the water on the floor while putting new in.. So once the new water was in I opened the window to let the carpet dry out. The next day of drying I brought home a bunch of tetras an let these guys feast.. which they did.. I then did a 10% water change an for 2 days window open. The day i closed it that night action next morning nest???


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## memento

Interesting








Like I said none of the above is factual and so far every cariba spawning has been a matter of believing it or not. But I found it interesting that the few I considered serious, had these similarities.
A close resembling of the start of the dry season inwhich spawning is more natural, for the rising of the waters and the abundance of food gives offspring the best chances of survival.

But only time will tell if one of these nests is a cariba nest.... so keep making videos and pictures, maybe it'll be the first documented Fury report


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## MFNRyan

Today looks like there sacks of yellow stuff are gone.. so I tried a cube of BBS.. heated the parents tank water an let the cube of BBS dissolve then put in the tank. Just one cube.. hard to tell if they are eating it an also how much I need to give them?


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## Guest

I strongly suggest you start hatching some baby brine shrimp. The fry respond to movement, they need a living source of food to start with.


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## MFNRyan

Ok cause I tried the BBS frozen today an doesn't seem like they are doing anything with it... Don't have baby brine shrimp in any of my LFS though?? I have a petco close don't think they have them either.. also how long do they take to hatch an what is needed


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## 0S1R1S

You better get the ball rolling soon, or you're going to lose them all. Brine shrimp take 18-24 hours to hatch. So until you even get eggs, you better figure out how to get them eating. Here are two sites to give you an idea of what you need to get started. Good luck man.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_brineshrimp_hatchery.php
http://www.bettatalk.com/hatching_brine_shrimp.htm


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## balluupnetme

this is interesting


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## MFNRyan

I got brine shrimp eggs today.. they still float lol.. who knows I gave it a go.. the babies seem to be responding well to the frozen thawed ones actually.. they are darting at the baby brine in the water when they eat it.. so I think it's working but I got brine eggs also we will see if I am capable of hating..

Last batch of babies I had I just fed brine shrimp.. this must be why i didn't have many make it to larger size lol they also never got removed from the tank.. they grew up in there I never messed with them special


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