# Wet/dry Filter In Basement



## nswhite

I have a 150g tank with a wet/dry filter. I'm making a much larger wet/dry filter that can hold 10 times the amount of bio balls and do a much better job overall of filtering the water. My tank is on the main level of my house and I want to install the wet/dry in the basement. The filter will be pretty much exactly below the tank just in the basement instead of in the tanks stand. I want to see what everyone's opinions are on this and if anyone has tried to do this and if they had any problems. I know that I will be fighting gravity to pump the water back up to the tank. Feel free to add whatever you'd like, any ideas or problems you might foresee would be appreciated.


----------



## Ægir

I did a sump in a basement for an odd sized saltwater system on a main floor. It was like 14' vertical and 12' horizontal to get water back to the tank.

The big issues are the huge amount of backflow you have when the pump is off, as there is lots of suspended water in the plumbing. Another big issue is noise, and designing the drain so it doesn't sound like a waterfall in your basement. It takes a pretty good sized pump to compensate for head loss when pushing water vertically. There are a few calculators online that even take fittings like 90s and 45s into account but most pumps have a chart available online. Your best bet is an external pump, we use Reeflo pumps on the other big SW system.

I will look for some pics of the wet/dry tower I made and how the sump was setup.


----------



## nswhite

Nice, I appreciate your input.

I didn't even think about the backflow. I'm planning on installing the sump almost directly vertical to the tank the floor is concrete and has a drain in it for the A/C and hot water heater. So maybe I can cut a whole into the top of the wet/dry box that works as an overflow protection that's plumbed to the drain, like a bathroom sink. What did you do to not make it sound like a waterfall? One of the reasons I want to put the sump in the basement is because of all the noise it makes now. I will look at the external pumps as well. I have never used an external pump.

I would definitely like to see some pictures.


----------



## Ægir

Can you post pics of the current setup?

What sized sump will the new one be? Any ideas what the length of your vertical run is?

To quiet things down, you can use a few methods... It really starts at your display tank and the overflow style you have. From there, avoiding vertical free fall helps or using a few P traps to slow the water down helps. As for an emergency overflow, if you use something like a Rubbermaid stock tank for the sump you can just drill it and add a bulkhead. Once you post some pictures, I can throw out some suggestions.

This is a terrible picture from right before tear down, but one of a few I can find right now... There are tons of things I would do differently, but it was good to learn first hand.










The 2" is the drain, and there are 3 1" returns (DO NOT RELY on those crappy flipper back-flow stops, or cheap ball valves). The drain has 5 or 6 90s where it disappears into the brick, and another 2 that divert it to the top of the DIY drip tower. Used one of the rubbermaid 3 drawer organizers, and drilled holes on a 1z1 grid in the bottom of each drawer. Due to the limited space, had to break this sump up into 2 tanks, the bottom is 90gals and the top is 40.

Best advice I can offer is plumb everything with rigid sch40 PVC, even the returns. DONT get cheap ball valves, or back flow preventers... if you use them, order the good ones online (I can give you a link). Use lots of true-unions in places you might have to remove plumbing to make repairs, such as manifolds and pumps. And dont use a cheap pump, we burned through 2 with that system because the owner wanted to use a submersible (in sump) type of pump... the other big SW system has had its main pump running 24-7 for over 2 years and hasnt had problems yet, although we do have a replacement on hand for when that day comes.


----------



## nswhite

I appreciate the pictures & your input.

The current sump is 2' and I picked up a 3' sump just the other day. I wanted to join the 2 together and have one large sump. The vertical run is about 14-15'.

Originally I was going to use the rubber/ vinyl tubing like what the wet/dry filter comes with but after speaking with you I will use PVC instead but I would like to know why you say to use the PVC? I didn't realize there were poor quality ball valves and back flow preventers so a link to quality parts would be very helpful or an example and I can find it from there. I will be purchasing a new external pump I haven't decided exactly which one yet. I want a good reliable pump but not one that breaks the bank either. I definitely don't want to hear a waterfall coming from my basement so I will do whatever it takes to quite it down.

What size SW tanks were you dealing with?

The first picture is of the overflow boxes & the return. Second pic is of the current sump, the 3rd & 4th pics are just of the tank & the last pic is of the sump I want to add.


----------



## Ægir

Nice looking tank, I like the setup. Any ideas who made the tank? It would be ideal to drill for overflows, in my opinion its worth the time to prevent future problems... If one overflow box fails, a large pump will quickly overload the other one. There are a few quality DIY kits, or most glass shops can come drill the bulkhead holes (mostly drill the tank). Plus drilling gives you all these neat options for failsafe drains.

I say use rigid PVC for a few reasons, the tank I posted pics of had vinyl originally, and the return hoses got small holes and caused problems and the drains "wiggled" around so much they broke free once. I like to design things so they dont fail or have problems. SCH 40 PVC is cheap, durable, and gives lots of benefits vs soft... plus I really enjoy working with it so







I look at it as how much damage water can do to your home, vs what it costs to sleep well and never think about it again.

HERE is a clear check valve with a union... again, NEVER rely on these to hold water but they work as a temporary stop.

HERE  is about any other special plumbing part you could need.

Big problems you will run into will be equally diverting your drain line(s) through the sump compartments, and possible flooding with all the water volume we are talking in plumbing. Connecting them will be easy but, its still not a ton of volume.

I have delt with everything from 20 - 400 gal saltwater tanks, right now I "maintain" (which is really plan and upgrade now) 2 tanks, 1 is a 125 gallon reef with a remote 90 gal sump, and the big boy is a 155 bowfront reef, over a 125 (all LED lit, controller the whole deal) with a 150 gallon rubbermaid sump.

Not doing anything right now so I will sketch something up for plumbing


----------



## Ægir

What are the dimensions of the sumps? Would help if I knew how much water they hold...










Your problem is going to be the sumps will be full to the rim with the pump off, and maybe 6" of water with it running. I left an open bay on the right side near the pump intake for extras like media reactors (carbon?) or possibly an auto top off.


----------



## nswhite

Thanks, I'm actually going to switch things up a little. I'm going to take out a couple fish and add some fish, some rocks and things like that. I believe its an Aqueon tank. I've never had a tank with built in overflows and I don't know much about the pros and cons of them. I would be interested into looking at the DIY overflow kits, I've never seen or heard of them before. I normally just use the hang over the back type overflows like what's in the picture. This tank is actually the first tank I've had with a wet/dry filter. In the past I've always kept solitary piranhas like rhoms or an elong. So a good canister filter did the job.

I'll definitely use PVC, I don't want to deal with any water damage. I also like to do things right the first time rather then trying to fix things later.

The saltwater tanks sound sweet. I've always wanted to do a large reef tank but I've heard its quite a commitment in regards to the amount of work to maintain everything. I had an 80g that was fully planted with co2 injection and all the works but it was a tremendous amount of routine maintenance.

The large sump is 36"x12"x14" about 25g. The small sump is 24"x12"x14" about 15g and the overflow boxes hold about a gallon each. I understand what your saying about the water level in the sump while running and when its off. Installing an overflow line straight to the drain just in case the sump was to overflow hopefully will be good enough. Your drawing is awesome thanks man! I was going to sketch out the design but you did it for me.


----------



## Ægir

Yeah, with sumps that size its going to be nearly impossible to get to run... just too much water fluctuation between on and off. You are going to have to use a larger sump basin of some sort (rubbermaid stock tank?). If the pump shuts off and you have an emergency drain, once it cycles on you will not have enough water to get running again = burnt out pump. You could place those 2 sumps (or even the big one is enough) to hold media inside a larger sump, but you need more water volume to work with.

I will do research on the tank manufacturer and see if you can drill the tank... HOB overflow boxes are alright, but there are things that can go wrong if you dont always keep an eye on them. Even air bubbles or a cracked U tube can take them offline.

Overflow kits

Yeah, saltwater is great... made the jump a few years back with my own tank. HERE is a thread with 2 of them and their journey. Maintaining them is really just the same as FW, the real burn is cost up front... especially if you want lots of fancy equipment like one of the installs above.


----------



## Ægir

So thinking about this and looking at my tank... I have about 5' of drain (2") and 5' of return (1"), and my sump tank drops 2" or so with the pump ON.

That means it takes a little over 6 gallons of water to get my system tumbling. You should expect to use 18-20 gallons with your vertical... with a well placed back flow preventer (which I have said before I hate to use) to suspend water in the return line, and a dedicated emergency drain (because that flipper valve will fail at some point) you could get away with the 2 sumps you have now. But it would be nice to have more volume.

You will just have to keep an eye on topping off water (use an ATO?) or setup some failsafe to keep the pump from running dry.


----------



## nswhite

OK I understand, So I pretty much need to X out the idea of joining the 2 sumps together and find something that holds more volume. So I have some 55 gal drums like these CLICK HERE. I have 2 being used to make R/O water and a couple more that I can use for whatever. I also have a 45gal power packer container from home depot like this CLICK HERE. I've used both the 55 gal drums & the 45gal container to hold water in the past. The 45gal container you can't fill up all the way or the sides bow and the top won't close but it can be filled about 80%. The 55 gal drums are made for holding water so you can fill those up all the way. Do you think something like this would work better? Or do I still need more volume? I want this filtration system to run properly while at the same time not adding a lot of routine work on my part. If I use one of the above containers how would you set that up? Would you use one of the sumps I have or just build everything into the container? I'm really handy and can build about anything.

I looked at your thread on the SW tanks you built and those are awesome. One day I will have a SW tank...

Thanks again for your input you've been a tremendous help. I would have had to figure these things out by trial and error.


----------



## Ægir

You could get away with the 2 joined sumps... but it will require much more attention day to day.

As for the sealed barrels, I would keep them for your RO water... things that are tall and narrow arent much better in this scenario. The ideal thing would be something like THIS if you have the room. You would just build an eggcrate or PVC shelf to support your media containers, which could be your bigger sump, or even 5 gal buckets with drip trays.

According to this from Aqueon, only the bottom panel is tempered glass so you should be able to drill the sides or back panel.


----------



## nswhite

Ya I'm good on the day to day attention. I barley have time to change the water once a week.

I definitely have the room. Do you think I need the 150g stock tank? or can I use a smaller one? When you say " You would just build an eggcrate or PVC shelf to support your media containers, which could be your bigger sump, or even 5 gal buckets with drip trays". Could you explain that please? I understand building something to hold the media containers but when you say "which could be your bigger sump" are you saying I could use the large sump with the stock tank? If so how would I go about that?

OK, is there a way to know by looking at the glass whether its tempered or not?


----------



## Ægir

It would only be about 1/2 or 1/3 full at "running" level. More water = less time between top offs, and more stable water parameters. Takes twice the fish poop to dirty up 300 gals of water vs 150.

I say build a shelf for the media trays because bio balls and such arent as effective when totally submerged in water... the point of a wet/dry is high oxygen (aerobic bacteria). Basically you would stuff all the compartments of your bigger (existing) sump with media, set it on the shelf inside the rubbermaid to keep most of the media above running level... water will just run out of the bulkheads, into the bigger rubbermaid sump, and then to the pump and back up.

Think of it as just setting your existing setup in a bathtub, and pumping from the tub instead of the end of the sump.

There are some tricks to double check tempered glass, like this.

I will throw together another sketch later tonight.


----------



## nswhite

I understand.

I will check the glass with that nifty trick. I'm actually changing the water now so I will be able to check in a few minutes.

I appreciate the drawings. Lets do it with the 150g stock tank and try to utilize the larger sump I have. Thanks again


----------



## nswhite

I think after talking with you I've decided to not install the sump in the basement right now. I think I may do it in the future. I appreciate all your input.

I'm going to use the larger sump I currently have and place the sump under the tank like it is now. I figure it will be about double the bio filtration since I'd be doubling the amount of bio balls and if needed I can install a larger pump to cycle the tanks water faster. I also have a couple large empty tanks that I think I'm going to set-up one of them for a piranha, maybe even a low light planted tank.


----------



## Ægir

Good option... In the future if you setup more large tanks, you could always use the basement sump to filter them as a group.

I will post the sketch anyways once I upload it.


----------

