# Possible Infection?



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Further to my thead here http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?/topic/339898-wont-feed-help-needed/ I think one of my fish may have some sort of infection. Just looking to get some help and advice on this. I've been monitoring him closely and in my opinion there's definately something wrong. I've noticed that his belly is slightly swollen/bloated. This something that I'd noticed around a week ago and thought nothing of it and just put it down to the lack of water changes over the previous weeks. I was confident that with a few water changes it would start to clear up. Other than the appearance of the poor chap, he just hangs around the top of the tank in the same place not really moving. The others have now begun to feed again, but this one shows little to no interest all. Over the last week of feeding he's attempted to take a bite only once and that's it. When he does move he's a little sluggish, but can still put in a shift when he wants. The water has been fine now for the last week or so and ammonia and nitrite are both down to 0. On the brighter side of things the selling doesn't appear to be getting any worse (at this point). I've thought of adding salt to the water, but I'm very unsure whether I'd be doing the right thing. Would it affect the others? How much to add?, etc, etc.....

I've added a few photos below to try and show the problem, but I don't think they show the swelling properly.


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Salt is typically for problems on the outside, and wont do much for internal problems. It appears that the fish is constipated or has a blockage. You can try feeding it a few green peas as a laxative...

If that doesnt work, it could possibly be an internal bacterial infection which is uncommon.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

OK, thanks for the reply.

The only problem there is that he's the only one of seven that's not eating. Trying the pees would be a problem. On saying that, he's not eaten for close on to two months now, so I don't understand how it could be a blockage or constipation.

If I were to treat for internal infection, how would I go about it?

Really concerned.


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Do you have any fake plants or decor in the tank it could have eaten? Has the fish been guarding an area or digging in the substrate? It could also be eggs.

Relocate it to a quarantine tank, or make a divider for your existing tank and see if you can get it to accept the peas.

If you are going to use a treatment of some sort, it would be best to put it in a quarantine tank. Will help the other fish and require less medication to dose a smaller tank. If I recall, I used MelaFix and PimaFix in the past... but not sure if they work on internal. You would have to do some research on that.

Here is a link of medications and what they cover.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

I've only just these past few days added a few fake plants (got fed up with trying real ones only to keep failing). None of them have any chunks bitten out of them and I'd noticed the swelling before adding them.

On the eggs thing, it was only last night that I mentioned to my wife that the fish could be pregnant. Nah, I thought. Couldn't be. I wouldn't say that it's been guarding an area as such, it's just been stuck at the top corner of the tank, but going for the odd swim around now and again. Doesn't swim for long though maybe to the other side of the tank and back again. One of the others did appeare to be protecting this one last night which led to me thinking that it could be pregnant. There's been no digging in the substrate though. As you can see by the photos the colours are also still there. I've always thought that they go dark when mating or pregnant. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that one.

I do have a bottle of Melafix lying around, but I think that's for external problems. Pimafix I would have to buy. I did think of going down that route.

I'll leave it for as long as I can. The fish is not really looking distressed or showing signs of discomfort. I don't want to start treating for the wrong thing if it is really carrying eggs. It's just the fact that's it's the only one that's not eating that's bothering me. How long does a Piranha carry eggs before laying?


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Typically if it was eggs it would be building a nest and doing some sort of mating "dance" with another fish. It would also be highly protective of an area that isnt the top of the tank and somewhere near the substrate. They will sometimes darken, but lots of factors like lighting / time of day / substrate and background color all play a part in how the fish looks.

I would let it go until things get worse, if its a blockage it may pass on its own... if its eggs there will be some obvious signs in the near future.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

I agree, probably best to leave it for now. It's not looking to be getting any worse (at this point).

The only other thing that I think it could possibly be if it is a blockage, is if it's managed to swallow a piece of bogwood. I have picked the odd piece or two out of there that's broken off.


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

if worse comes to worse you could separate the fish and try to medicate it..i hate this option and use medication and quarantine tank as last resort. the medication i would use is Maracyn-2 as it Safe for the biological filter - 5 day treatment and increase aeration during treatment...Sometime the piranha could be holding eggs and Egg-binding can also lead to an internal bacterial infection.
If you could get the fish to eat -- you could stuff the peas in a piece of tilapia or something...

..oh i also wanted to say i love your tank and piranha and the black substrate is very nice


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Thanks for the reply Sanchezi!

I've just got home from work and checked the tank and the fish does look overall a little worse today. I've noticed now also that it's struggling to turn. There's also a second fish now that looks to have the swollen belly. Not so bad, but it's starting.
I'm happy to use the Maracyn 2, but under the circumstances I'm happy to treat the whole tank. Would this be wise?

The tank itself is a Juwel Rio 400 and I just had to have the black substrate. Glad you like it. Thanks very much!

I've just had a look for the Maracyn 2 and it doesn't look as though it's available to us in the UK. Do you know of any other alternatives? The only thing that I can think of is the Melafix and Pimafix. Having done a little reading on the Pimafix, it's claimed to be good for internal and external bacterial infections as well as fungal.


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

Hello,
if there is more than one fish that looks like it is getting the same symptom, then yes i would say it is time to dose entire tank...
before dosing do large water change and minimize feedings ( this is to help stabilize the water conditions and keep it clean) and follow instructions on package.
Sorry to hear that your fish are not doing to well...

yes Ægir is correct, Melafix and Pimafix are very good...but internal infections are very difficult to properly diagnose and even more difficult to cure.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Thanks ever so much for the reply.

I'll go for the Pimafix then and use it with the Melafix (as I already have that one). I know they can be used together.

I'm absolutely gutted about it if I'm honest. I've had these fish for almost two years now and had them from tiny babies. I'll be absolutely devastated if I lose any of them.


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

i am sorry to hear --

i found this as well...

To treat Bloat, the plan of attack is:
Metronidazole and water changes, water changes, water changes!!

1. Remove carbon/resins from filter.
2. Perform a 30-50% water change (reduces free-floating bacteria population)
3. Add salt (teaspoon to a tablespoon per gallon) to aid the fish's osmotic regulation processes.
4. Treat with 250mg/20gallons of Metronidazole (Flagyl)
5. Leave for 3 days and do not feed.
6. After 3 days, perform another large water change.
7. Replace the salt.
8. Add full dosage of Metronidazole.
9. Wait another 3 days. During this phase, the bloat should be decreasing in appearance. In large fish, the water may take on an ammonia odor from the high volume of urea the fish should now be producing due to reducing the bloat and recovering renal activity.
10. 3rd day, another water change. Also, replace the salt and redose the metronidazole (full dose). If the fish looks to be well on the road to recovery you can offer a small feeding each day.
11. Another water change on the 3rd day. No meds but, I'd recommend the salt.

there is also Parasite Guard Medication that is all purpose internal parasite cure...

oh...Good luck with this and remember to keep water clean and feed very little.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

He's gone!

I can't tell you how devastated I am. He'd started to swim upside down and bob along the bottom of the tank. A couple of the others were starting to take a nip and were ready to attack. I fished him out, put him in a bag and placed in the freezer. Couldn't let him get eaten. Tank looks really empty now.
I'll continue with the Melafix just as a precaution and get the Pimafix tomorrow an add that. The LFS didn't have any earlier when I went down so I'll have to go a little further tomorrow. Day off work anyway.

Thanks a lot for all the replies. Very much appreciated!

Hope I can catch the others now before they go the same way.


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Sorry for your loss, sucks... I have been there. Sounds like it may have been a swim bladder issue as well as bloat?

I would not dose the tank unless you see signs in the other fish. If they are happy and eating, no need to worry.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Thank you my friend. Not a great feeling to lose one.

There is another that's showing the same signs now. It's colours are also looking very pale. There's also a bit of a bulge underneath this ones jaw. Doesn't look right at all. I think it's only a matter of time now with this one.
There's a third also. He looks fine apart from the bulging left eye.
The other four look great and are very active.

Worth carrying on with the meds???


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Melafix and Pimafix arent toxic or hard on the fish so... couldnt hurt.

I actually enjoy the smell of Melafix, the fish seem to not like it.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

I'll carry on with the meds in the hope that I might just save the two I mentioned above and as it won't affect the others.....

The smell of Melafix is great. As you say though, the fish don't seem to like it. 15 minutes after adding it they were going crazy. Calmed down a bit now though.


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

very sorry...

if it is bloat, you may have to do the Metronidazole


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Popped into another store this morning and picked up a treatment for swimbladder disease. I was very reluctant to use the stuff, but the chap in the shop was very helpful made numerous phone calls to see if it was safe to use with Piranha.
After a 30% water change I added the treatment and 4 hours later everything seems fine. No adverse affects as yet.


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

Good luck...best thing to do is not feed while medicating and remove any charcoal from filter if you have any new (2 week old) charcoal in there.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Thanks man!

I'll hold off with the feeding definately. Instructions say to do a water change in 5 days time, so fingers crossed.
The only thing I've ever used in the filters are sponges, bio rings and pot scrubbers in the 406.
Hopefully it's the right treatment and it works. I really don't want to lose another one.

The only thing is, if these meds to have an affect and I end up losing them all I'd start over again. Not entirely sure how I'd go about that though with having these meds running through the filters.


----------



## Titus (Dec 1, 2014)

Sorry for your loss mate.

The fish you lost did look like he was having clamped gills, maybe thats why he was hanging around the top. It's the last part of his gill, looks really white and "glued" to his body. Make sure the others don't have it as well.

Lots of great advice, gotta love this place!

Hope your other fish are fine, keep an eye on them. Best of luck man !


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

Just to further the help efforts -- did this happen after you came back from vacation or was it after a certain meal ( what are you regularly feeding the piranha?)...and just a thought did you add any thing new to the tank?


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Titus: I'd noticed the 'glue' effect on the side of his head first which them spread to his gills. As for the others, there's only a very slight sign of the glue on the side of ones head. The one that now has the swollen belly also has it. There's also another with a bulging left eye who apart from that looks in good condition. The rest are fine and are looking very healthy. Also VERY active.

I agree, some very friendly and welcome advice here.

Sanchezi: This all happened after I came back home after being away on a family emergency. We were gone for around four weeks in which time there were no water changes or were they fed as no one was home. I'm certain that it's the build up of nasties in the water due to the lack of water changes that have caused infection/s. This is my original thread..... http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?/topic/339898-wont-feed-help-needed/

They've always mostly eaten prawns, but I have varied it from time to time with fish, heart, steak, chicken (very seldom) and Hikari pellets.

Nothing has been added to the tank.


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

ok cool -- well looks like you are correct in thinking, build up of nastiness...good luck with your fish...
just a quick input here -- I remember when i had a school of piranha that was very sick...i had to basically clean out filter with old tank water -- remove all driftwood, gravel and had them in a sanitary bare tank environment to finally have the illness cured...but this is worse case scenario...


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

WOW! That would be one hell of a chore to strip the tank down and do the filters. I've got a ton of black substrate to be moved. As you say though, a last resort and I would do it if I thought it would save them.


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

i wouldn't yet -- do the medication and see how they respond -- hopefully all will work out -- i had bought a pleco that had Flavobacterium columnare, and i had to medicate with a combination of the antibiotics furan-2 and kanamycin administered together and needed a pristine tank to make sure the bacteria was not anywhere on the furnishings....this was a real killer...after that -- i never bought another pleco again ... in fact when i raise piranha now -- i only have piranha in the tank...no little tetras or any other species swimming around...as most small fish give off growth inhibiting hormones ( this is still to be 100% proven) but i take no more chances with my piranha.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

I won't touch anything now. I'll just let the meds run their course and see what happens. Fingers crossed.

Cleaning the tank out to bare bones really is not the route I want to go believe me. I can just imagine the work involved now.

Could I just ask... If and I say 'IF' I were to lose all the fish, is it at possible to get rid of the meds in the tank and restock without having to start filter cycles over again and without the risk of newcomers picking up the infection?


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

Personally if you were to start over i would let the tank run empty for a month and then put in a couple of tetra fish and see how they do to make sure all virus or bacteria is dead...most bacteria need a host to survive...and the most determined ones can survive up to 32 days without a host.

to add about removing meds -- most meds are inactive after 3 to 4 days and turn into bio load...you could charcoal it to remove or do 50 percent water change.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Both points make perfect sense.

Just a little on running the tank empty for a month. Would that have an affect on the bacteria in the filter as there is nothing in the tank to feed it?


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

they survive -- i know for sure well over 2 months...here is a good read on bacteria survival in an empty tank, from Dr Timothy Hovanec

They don't starve as more complex animals do. The only thing a bacterium really wants to do is become two bacteria. They are very patient about this and if energy sources (like ammonia or nitrite) they need are not available they slow their cell function down and produce enzymes that protect the cell, going into hibernation. We've had cells in bottles at 10°C (50°F) for several years that start working within a few days of being put in warmer water with ammonia. The NOB are more sensitive but can last two to three years at the right temperature. In any case the cell doesn't die and goes into a state of suspended cell function sat waiting for the right conditions. To kill a bacterium you have poison it or break open the cell wall.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Good to know and valuable info.

I'm assuming that weekly water changes would be done less often?


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

no need to do water change if there is no fish left...just the initial 50 percent to start fresh


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Lost another one around a week ago now. The remaining 5 look like they're OK, but toying with the idea of just taking them to the store and starting again from scratch with 10 juvies. I'd love wild caught, but they're not readily available in the UK.


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

..I would make sure there is nothing lingering like any disease before adding any new fish...


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Was just going to leave it for a month first as suggested. Is there a way to speed up that process to get rid of any nasties?


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

to be honest -- a month is a good time to wait -- or you can do major work and tear down -- but then you would have to re-cycle the tank which takes 3 weeks...so you are kind of stuck with that time frame regardless


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

If it were my tank and you are serious about starting over, I would throw away the filter media. Clean all the tank, gravel, filters with a vinegar / hot water or mild bleach solution. Rinse well with hot water and set everything back up, Let it run for a few days with no filter media... any remaining bleach or vinegar wont harm anything after that. Place new media in the filters, and a sponge or pad of media from a cycled tank and a raw shrimp or dose pure ammonia.

Tank would be ready for a light bio load in a week, but its lots of work to totally clean everything out.

I would just be apprehensive about waiting, as we still dont know exactly what is causing the issue... It could remain in the tank for much longer than a month.


----------



## Sanchezi (Apr 17, 2007)

Ægir is correct about whatever it is can stay in the tank long...also if the 5 remaining piranha are doing ok -- i would just keep them and call it a day.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Thanks guys. Great info and certainly food for thought.


----------

