# Bullsnakes SPilo new home



## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

I dont get it guys? The spilo that Jeff gave to me to care for now has cloudy eyes!!!!!!!!!

Im pulling my hair out trying to figure out WTF to do!

I introduced him by added about a the same amount of my tank water to the bucket he was in within 15-20 minutes. I then poured the water that was mixed with the Spilo into my tank.

I had a few platties in there from the time my spilo died hoping to keep the bio filter going.

The water params and a short water param history is listed below.

Ok here are the water params as I know they will be asked for. This was done as of 6pm Eastern Standard time on Monday April 28th.

Ammonia 1.0
Nitrate 10
PH 6.4
High PH Between 7.4-7.8
Nitrite .25

and here are the last few times I tested the water.

4/16/08
High Range PH was between 7.4 and 7.6
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 10
Ammonia-between .25-.50

4/17/08
Then here are todays water readings.
High Range PH was about 7.4
and
Regular pH readin says about 7.0-7.2 (I CANT FIGURE WHICH TO USE!)
Nitrite I didnt measure it is ALWAYS 0
Nitrate 10
Ammonia 1.0

Could the tank be going through a mini cycle????

I did move about 45 days ago and did nearly a 60% water change when I transported my spilo. COuld that have created a cycle?

I dont know what to do guys....Could it be a bacteria or fungus or anything else?

I will get pictures posted soon but if you have followed my other "eye" issues then it looks like that...just not popped out...just cloudy.

Here is the link to my old problem that the new SPilo has UNFORTUNATELY inherited.

http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.ph...amp;pid=2184302


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Forgot to add this question.
Should I do a water change?

The Nitrates havent been anything but 0 in years. This is why I suspect it cycled again.

But what are my options besides melfix and salt?


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

notaverage said:


> Ok here are the water params as I know they will be asked for. This was done as of 6pm Eastern Standard time on Monday April 28th.
> 
> Ammonia 1.0
> Nitrate 10
> ...


Is the pH 6.4, 7.4 or 7.8?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I think he is using two ph tests....one for high ph and one for regular ph....and he is confused by the readings. It looks like the correct ph is the high one....but I am not sure either.

It sounds to me like your bio-load is much higher now then with the platties...and the bacteria needs to catch up.

I think his eyes are cloudy because ammonia burn usually starts with the eyes and soft parts of the fin. Ammonia is also more toxic with a higher ph. I would start doing some daily 25% water changes to reduce the ammonia. I would also stop feeding him altogether since he is a solo fish...and if those platties are still in the tank...remove then as well. Add a pinch of salt to help with the nitrite spike you will be getting soon. After your ammonia drops to zero you can start feeding him again...but start out slow...so you dont overload the bacteria again.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Grosse Gurke said:


> I think he is using two ph tests....one for high ph and one for regular ph....and he is confused by the readings. It looks like the correct ph is the high one....but I am not sure either.
> 
> It sounds to me like your bio-load is much higher now then with the platties...and the bacteria needs to catch up.
> 
> I think his eyes are cloudy because ammonia burn usually starts with the eyes and soft parts of the fin. Ammonia is also more toxic with a higher ph. I would start doing some daily 25% water changes to reduce the ammonia. I would also stop feeding him altogether since he is a solo fish...and if those platties are still in the tank...remove then as well. Add a pinch of salt to help with the nitrite spike you will be getting soon. After your ammonia drops to zero you can start feeding him again...but start out slow...so you dont overload the bacteria again.


Your right. Im not sure which PH test is correct. As far as the feedings...there havent been any notable feedings. I attempted to feed him a shrimp and dropped it in and within the hour took it out b/c he didnt touch it.

I will start 25% water changes tomorrow morning.

What does him being Solo have to do with feeding? Im not quite sure what the significance of him being solo means?

Platies were taken out when I put him in.

A pinch of salt? I added 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. I thought that was what is prescribed?

As far as Ammonia is concerned. Should it be at 0 at some point?

When I feed I dont let the shrimp or other fish lay in the tank for more then an hour and I do weekly vac/water changes. There is nowhere that I could think of that food is sitting in the tank as it is a bare tank other then the gravel.

Thanks for the responses and if you feel as if you have anything else to add please do!
I will post pics if requested.

Kris


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

DonH said:


> Ok here are the water params as I know they will be asked for. This was done as of 6pm Eastern Standard time on Monday April 28th.
> 
> Ammonia 1.0
> Nitrate 10
> ...


Is the pH 6.4, 7.4 or 7.8?
[/quote]

Sorry for the confusion. 
The color of the water and the card was in between the 2 for the HIGH PH
When I tested the low PH it looked to be 6.4

I honestly don't know which is correct. i would hope that the HIGH PH was.

Did you by chance see the link I posted for my spilo that passed?

Could I be doing too little water changes? I average about 1 every 7-10 days at 15-20%.

This is a 29 gallon tank.

I never had issues like this before. Im beginning to wonder if maybe I don't have enough filtration.

Its about 450 GPH if I remember correctly. I have an eclipse 3 system and an internal filter I was given brand new so I added it.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

If your ph is registering on the "regular" test...then that is your ph. The higher ph test if for people that test their water with the regular test kit...and it max's out...so they dont know what their ph really is....so they need to test the ph on a higher scale. You shouldnt need to use both tests though.

Solo feeding reference was simply because when you have a solo fish..he can go months without feeding...but if they are in a group....not feeding can create issues...especially if the fish are accustomed to pattern feeding. (Just my opinion).

Taking the food out is fine...but whatever he eats will be turned into ammonia eventually...so if you stop feeding...his waste will be significantly reduced. Doing water changes will also help. Your readings look like the bacteria is there...it just needs to multiply to numbers that can handle your bio-load.

Your ammonia will go to zero in a tank that has enough bio-filtration...and the tank is fully cycled.

Your fine with the salt. It didnt sound to me like the burn was much...so I would just have used the salt to help with the nitrite spike.

I hope DonH replies again....this is just my opinion...and he really is the man at water chem.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Thanks I really appreciat e your input as well as DON H. I have been told to contact you 2 on a few occasions but let it pass.

I will try to do a water change in the morning and test the water at night again.


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

Damn, is that tank cursed or something?! 
Maybe the cloudy eyes are just from the ammo spike....hope this works out for you.
If it doesn't, I'd tear the tank down, clean everything real good and re-fill it. Might seem a little drastic, but it's not that big a job with a 29 (I did it once with mine to try to get rid of those damn nematoad things), but if it's not the ammo spike there's definitely something bad in there.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Piranha Dan said:


> Damn, is that tank cursed or something?!
> Maybe the cloudy eyes are just from the ammo spike....hope this works out for you.
> If it doesn't, I'd tear the tank down, clean everything real good and re-fill it. Might seem a little drastic, but it's not that big a job with a 29 (I did it once with mine to try to get rid of those damn nematoad things), but if it's not the ammo spike there's definitely something bad in there.


I have no Idea.

Im half tempted to just introduce him into my tropical tank and tear down this SOB!
To be honest with ya. When I first got the tanks from a guy on PF. I never cleaned them properly. I hosed them out and dried them. That was it. Since I have had the tanks I have had Planaria (NEVER had them in my other tanks) and this cloudy eye problem. nothing has changed except my feeding habits which was changed from mostly platties from my trop tank beef heart.

THe tank has the regular black gravel that all basic tanks have. NOTHING ELSE in the tank. everytime I vac it the water is 100X's cleaner then my trop tank. There is almost nothing in the bucket and only about 1 time a month or so I alternate rinsing 1 of the bags of bio media in the water I have removed.

Crossing my fingers but I think you may be right.

Taking the tank apart may be the next best fix.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Planaria is generally caused by decaying food or overfeeding man.....Poor gravel vaccing etc,etc.....Which could also be leading up to your ammonia problem

What are we running for filtration on this setup? Do you happen to have another established filter one could pull off and toss on here.....

I'm about at a loss on what to due from here on out man.....

Are you feeding beefheart?
I got confused-So I want to be sure........This stuff is a major pain in the arse man and makes a huge mess of a tank.......


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

AKSkirmish said:


> Planaria is generally caused by decaying food or overfeeding man.....Poor gravel vaccing etc,etc.....Which could also be leading up to your ammonia problem
> 
> What are we running for filtration on this setup? Do you happen to have another established filter one could pull off and toss on here.....
> 
> I'm about at a loss on what to due from here on out man.....


The tank and filters have been running for damn near 2 years. They have been switched on tanks but within an hour or so. The substrate I left in the tank with the water so that the bacteria didnt die during the transport 6 or so weeks ago when I moved.

Ill just wait for more responses. I am doing about 20% water change the next few days and try to get to testing the water at night to see if everything is balancing out.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Wow- man-

Sorry I am of no help here now---And I know how frustrateing this can be....

Hopefully the more experienced shows up pretty soon....


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

AKSkirmish said:


> Wow- man-
> 
> Sorry I am of no help here now---And I know how frustrateing this can be....
> 
> Hopefully the more experienced shows up pretty soon....


Im sure you do with all your tanks. I guess I cant complain I have had Ps and other tanks for nearly 8 years and never had a problem like this.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

For now I would just keep up with the water changes....And stop the feedings for a few days...Like already stated....And see what happens from there---

And thats the end of my help Sir.....

And Don H is now reading if yeah haven't noticed---Helps on the way for ya buddy...


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Thanks for your input AK.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

notaverage said:


> The tank and filters have been running for damn near 2 years. They have been switched on tanks but within an hour or so. The substrate I left in the tank with the water so that the bacteria didnt die during the transport 6 or so weeks ago when I moved.


Can you explain a little more about the move? Sounds like this was the start of your problems....and you may have lost a majority of your bacteria in the move....which would explain why your tank can not handle the bio-load.


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

I suggest you take a water sample to your LFS and see how their numbers match with your's. Most LFS that I go to do it for free. That way, we can try to isolate the problem.

The most common causes of cloudy eye are low pH, high ammonia, parasites, or bacterial infection caused by eye trauma. From your parameters, it can either be a combination of high pH and ammonia (if your pH is 7.8), or a sudden move from a tank with a higher pH to a pH of 6.4. That's why a want a more consistent reading... There's nothing wrong with a pH of 7.8 by itself, but when combined with even small levels of ammonia, the results are toxic and will have the symptoms that we see in the pics. If your pH is actually 6.4, 15 minutes of acclimation is not enough time for its body to adjust to a drastic drop in pH. If I knew my tank was that low, I would have done a couple of major water changes before introducing fish to that tank. The fish already in the tank are acclimated to those conditions so likely won't show those symptoms but a newly added fish will.

How's the behavior? Lethargic? Flared gills and labored breathing? Hanging near the top? Flashing?

I would also try to confirm the ammonia reading with another test kit. There's obviously something wrong if an established tank is getting an ammonia reading of 1.0 ppm. Are you using any water conditioners that detoxify ammonia like AmQuel, Prime, or Ammo-Lock? Those can yield false readings in most ammonia test kits.


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

Forgot to add...

If the fish shows no improvement and is actually getting worse, forget the 20% water change and do at least a 50% water change. Just make sure that the temp is close to the tank temp. It might help to add a fresh bag of activated carbon and treat with salt.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

DonH said:


> The tank and filters have been running for damn near 2 years. They have been switched on tanks but within an hour or so. The substrate I left in the tank with the water so that the bacteria didnt die during the transport 6 or so weeks ago when I moved.


Can you explain a little more about the move? Sounds like this was the start of your problems....and you may have lost a majority of your bacteria in the move....which would explain why your tank can not handle the bio-load.
[/quote]

I removed about 40% of the water and left him in the tank. Put him in my SUV with the heat in the back on blast. The Temp dropped about 10 degrees within the 2.5 hours so as soon as I got him to the new house. I had to set up the stand and clean it etc, filled buckets with water that From touch felt just a bit warmer and Prime + a dose of salt and poured it in...when I filled the tank the temp jumped about 6-7 degrees and I added the heater and got the filter running. I did completely clean the plastic of the filter with a high pressure hose. BUT i did leave the bags of bio media in the tank.

Let me know if I left anything out or if anything alarms you.

Thanks again for your input and support!


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

You only dose the amount of Prime and salt in proportion to the volume of water being changed out. That being said, it's pretty difficult to overdose Prime or AmQuel but putting the amount of salt for the volume of your tank instead of just the volume changed out can lead to stress/death.

I recommended the activated carbon as a precautionary measure to pull any toxins that might be in your water.

BTW, a 10 degree drop in a matter of less than a few hours is a lot and a bounce up 6-7 degrees soon afterwards is very stressful on fish. That might not directly cause the cloudy eye but can stress the fish enough to suppress its immune system so it will have trouble recovering. Compound that with your water parameters being off, you can see where problems might arise.

For now, stop feeding the fish for the next week and concentrate on getting all your water parameters in check. With salt in the tank, you should be able to see improvements in a week. If the infection gets into the eye, the eye may unfortunately end up with a smaller pupil after it has healed.


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## badkarma2010 (Dec 24, 2007)

You mentioned that you have black gravel in the tank but you didn't say what type of filtration you are using, (or i might have missed it). anyway, i'm sure you know that the efficiency of your biological filtration will largely depend the filter. Also, as mentioned above as your water becomes more alkaline the ammonia in your tank becomes toxic to your fish. ideally you want your pH somewhere in the neighborhood of 6.5 or so. This will also be more like the natural environment of piranhas. If it is alone in the tank it is a good bet that the cloudiness in the eyes is due to poor water quality. Lastly, I would also recommend using a pH buffer to maintain a stable pH. If you can stabilize the pH the nitrifying bacteria reduce the ammonia in time.


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## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

Good luck man.
im not going to add my 2 cents, because DonH is the man.... i hope it works out for you.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

DonH said:


> You only dose the amount of Prime and salt in proportion to the volume of water being changed out. That being said, it's pretty difficult to overdose Prime or AmQuel but putting the amount of salt for the volume of your tank instead of just the volume changed out can lead to stress/death.
> 
> I recommended the activated carbon as a precautionary measure to pull any toxins that might be in your water.
> 
> ...


I feel like such an idiot. So when I was dosing the tank daily with 1 tablespoon per gallon of water DAILY without water changes that probably stressed him?

If thats the case Im pretty pissed b/c when I moved to my new home I asked the guy at my LFS whom seemed to know his stuff and he said that you couldnt over dose with salt. I guess that was me not thinking.

Oh hell. I dont know. Hope that was it then it would make sense. 
Im exhausted. The LFS said to bring in the water and they will test it for me. 
Bed time.


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

The 4 hour exposure LD50 (lethal dose 50% of the population) of total ammonia for fish in water with pH 6.5 is 0.74 PPM. Your water parameters aren't much better and it should be a red alert to get the total ammonia (NH3/NH4+) down to like 0.02 PPM. That is like doing 4 X 50% water changes to start then each day doing subsequent smaller water changes to keep the ammonia to a non-toxic level while the filter establishes itself with the population of bacteria able to handle the new bioload. You will have to continue this process for the nitrites too.


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## dalyhawk (Apr 30, 2007)

After reading this thread, this makes me realize how much i know about piranhas compared to most, but most importantly, how much i DONT know STILL about keeping piranhas. There's a lot of info into keeping healthy reds. I actually noticed one of my reds becoming kinda pale-ish in color and my most reddish P becoming less red. Hmm.. Looks like i'm going to keep up with my water changes and downsize the feedings to about once every 2 days or so, not just when i think they're hungry.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

shanker said:


> The 4 hour exposure LD50 (lethal dose 50% of the population) of total ammonia for fish in water with pH 6.5 is 0.74 PPM. Your water parameters aren't much better and it should be a red alert to get the total ammonia (NH3/NH4+) down to like 0.02 PPM. That is like doing 4 X 50% water changes to start then each day doing subsequent smaller water changes to keep the ammonia to a non-toxic level while the filter establishes itself with the population of bacteria able to handle the new bioload. You will have to continue this process for the nitrites too.


WHat test kits do you use?
I dont know what PPm is. I use the API freshwater master kit. 
I thought i was doing the right thing.
Obviously not.
So 4x50% meaning 1 today 1 tomorrow 1 the next day etc. or 4 in a row? Please explain.


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

You could try adding some Freswater TLC to take care of the ammonia/nitrite problem if you can get it. I know everybody says that stuff is garbadge, but it worked wonders for me when I had a PH crash followed by an ammonia spike in my old tank.


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

notaverage said:


> WHat test kits do you use?
> I dont know what PPm is. I use the API freshwater master kit.
> I thought i was doing the right thing.
> Obviously not.
> So 4x50% meaning 1 today 1 tomorrow 1 the next day etc. or 4 in a row? Please explain.


ppm = parts per million = mg/l

It's a unit used to measure concentration in solution like ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphates, etc.

I wouldn't recommend doing 4 x 50% consecutive water changes. Don't do too much at the same time. The stress will kill the fish before the ailment will...


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## badkarma2010 (Dec 24, 2007)

everything that has been written is true and the fact that your fish is undoubtedly stressed coupled with poor water quality is a lethal combination. it sounds like you have added a lot of different things to your tank in hopes of fixing the problem but that in itself could be contributing to the stress. if you are planning on doing water changes i would recommend smaller amounts more frequently vs. a few massive changes. In doing so you will dilute the salt/ammonia/nitrite and anything you might've added in and maybe have a better idea of what the underlying issue is. Also, i would again highly recommend a pH buffer for any tank. i use the seachem buffer with great success. a fluctuation of pH from say 6.9 to 7.0 is a factor of ten. that is ten times more alkaline. pH shock will kill faster than ammonia or nitrite as those will creep up more gradually.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

badkarma2010 said:


> everything that has been written is true and the fact that your fish is undoubtedly stressed coupled with poor water quality is a lethal combination. it sounds like you have added a lot of different things to your tank in hopes of fixing the problem but that in itself could be contributing to the stress. if you are planning on doing water changes i would recommend smaller amounts more frequently vs. a few massive changes. In doing so you will dilute the salt/ammonia/nitrite and anything you might've added in and maybe have a better idea of what the underlying issue is. Also, i would again highly recommend a pH buffer for any tank. i use the seachem buffer with great success. a fluctuation of pH from say 6.9 to 7.0 is a factor of ten. that is ten times more alkaline. pH shock will kill faster than ammonia or nitrite as those will creep up more gradually.


What exactly is a PH buffer?

ANy suggestions on a type?

Im doing a 25% change now as I type. I didnt get to yesterday but did one Monday. I will shoot for another 25% tomorrow and another Friday or Saturday. Should that be enough?


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

How would I know without a Hydrometer how much salt was in there?
From what everyone says you add 1 tbsp per 5 gallons and repeat daily for up to a week. 
Thats how I have taken it.


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

notaverage said:


> How would I know without a Hydrometer how much salt was in there? *(No telling without it)
> *From what everyone says you add 1 tbsp per 5 gallons and repeat daily for up to a week. *(Maybe you misinterpreted, for injuries 1 TBS per 5 gallons and daily partially water changes, than replace salt that was removed with each change).
> *Thats how I have taken it.





> What exactly is a PH buffer?
> *A mixture that resists pH changes
> *ANy suggestions on a type?
> *Cheapest and most likely is in your household is "Arm & Hammer Baking Soda" administered at 1 tablespoon per every 50 gallons of water once a day. After any water changes replace percentage removed. Chances are with all your water changes no buffer is needed at the moment. Depends on what your kH is out of tap. If it is near 89 ppm, you wont need any buffer for a tank with a single fish.
> ...


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

notaverage said:


> The 4 hour exposure LD50 (lethal dose 50% of the population) of total ammonia for fish in water with pH 6.5 is 0.74 PPM. Your water parameters aren't much better and it should be a red alert to get the total ammonia (NH3/NH4+) down to like 0.02 PPM. That is like doing 4 X 50% water changes to start then each day doing subsequent smaller water changes to keep the ammonia to a non-toxic level while the filter establishes itself with the population of bacteria able to handle the new bioload. You will have to continue this process for the nitrites too.


WHat test kits do you use?
I dont know what PPm is. I use the API freshwater master kit. 
I thought i was doing the right thing.
Obviously not.
So 4x50% meaning 1 today 1 tomorrow 1 the next day etc. or 4 in a row? Please explain.
[/quote]

You need 4 X 50% serial dilutions all in one day to bring 0.25 PPM (parts per million) down to 0.02 PPM.

Other people are not recommending it because it will risk killing your fish so it is balance between the Lethal Dose 50 Exposure limit at your current total ammonia levels and whether a massive water transfusion would be more risky. When you raise the pH in your tank a larger percentage of the total ammonia will be in the form of free ammonia (NH3) and if you had a trickle wet dry filter with a fan blowing clean air against the trickling water you can probably physically strip out a lot of the NH3 without doing water changes. I think the reason why large public aquariums don't use stripper towers is because of the electric cost and amount of noise they make.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Dr. Giggles said:


> How would I know without a Hydrometer how much salt was in there? *(No telling without it)
> *From what everyone says you add 1 tbsp per 5 gallons and repeat daily for up to a week. *(Maybe you misinterpreted, for injuries 1 TBS per 5 gallons and daily partially water changes, than replace salt that was removed with each change).
> *Thats how I have taken it.





> What exactly is a PH buffer?
> *A mixture that resists pH changes
> *ANy suggestions on a type?
> *Cheapest and most likely is in your household is "Arm & Hammer Baking Soda" administered at 1 tablespoon per every 50 gallons of water once a day. After any water changes replace percentage removed. Chances are with all your water changes no buffer is needed at the moment. Depends on what your kH is out of tap. If it is near 89 ppm, you wont need any buffer for a tank with a single fish.
> ...


[/quote]

Wish I knew how to highlight and quote and answer like you just did.

I was never told 1 tablespoon per gallon...1 tablespoon per 5 gallons.
I killed my spilo then. I added 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons for nearly a week and a half or more!!

I dont know why I didnt use common sense. I didnt understand why I would add that much salt without a change.
Damn I feel like such a jerk! I havent been doing that with JEffs Spilo though. ONly added prime to the water during th changes.
I will test the water now.

What test kits do you guys use to get those specific ppm measurements?


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

notaverage said:


> *I feel like such an idiot. So when I was dosing the tank daily with 1 tablespoon per gallon of water DAILY without water changes that probably stressed him?
> *
> If thats the case Im pretty pissed b/c when I moved to my new home I asked the guy at my LFS whom seemed to know his stuff and he said that you couldnt over dose with salt. I guess that was me not thinking.
> 
> ...


I got that info from a previous posting. Typo on your part maybe... I use aquarium pharmaceuticals master test kit. Reliable and dependable imo.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Dr. Giggles said:


> *I feel like such an idiot. So when I was dosing the tank daily with 1 tablespoon per gallon of water DAILY without water changes that probably stressed him?
> *
> If thats the case Im pretty pissed b/c when I moved to my new home I asked the guy at my LFS whom seemed to know his stuff and he said that you couldnt over dose with salt. I guess that was me not thinking.
> 
> ...


I got that info from a previous posting. Typo on your part maybe... I use aquarium pharmaceuticals master test kit. Reliable and dependable imo.
[/quote]

I do as well. how do you figure the ppms though?


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

shanker said:


> The 4 hour exposure LD50 (lethal dose 50% of the population) of total ammonia for fish in water with pH 6.5 is 0.74 PPM. Your water parameters aren't much better and it should be a red alert to get the total ammonia (NH3/NH4+) down to like 0.02 PPM. That is like doing 4 X 50% water changes to start then each day doing subsequent smaller water changes to keep the ammonia to a non-toxic level while the filter establishes itself with the population of bacteria able to handle the new bioload. You will have to continue this process for the nitrites too.


WHat test kits do you use?
I dont know what PPm is. I use the API freshwater master kit. 
I thought i was doing the right thing.
Obviously not.
So 4x50% meaning 1 today 1 tomorrow 1 the next day etc. or 4 in a row? Please explain.
[/quote]

You need 4 X 50% serial dilutions all in one day to bring 0.25 PPM (parts per million) down to 0.02 PPM.

Other people are not recommending it because it will risk killing your fish so it is balance between the Lethal Dose 50 Exposure limit at your current total ammonia levels and whether a massive water transfusion would be more risky. When you raise the pH in your tank a larger percentage of the total ammonia will be in the form of free ammonia (NH3) and if you had a trickle wet dry filter with a fan blowing clean air against the trickling water you can probably physically strip out a lot of the NH3 without doing water changes. I think the reason why large public aquariums don't use stripper towers is because of the electric cost and amount of noise they make.
[/quote]

so what do you use?


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

ammonia .50
nitrate-10
ph 6.8
nitrite 0
after about 30% water change

29 gallon tank filled 1 to top and 2nd 3/4 way with tank water. filled back with similiar tank and prime. No salt


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

notaverage said:


> *I feel like such an idiot. So when I was dosing the tank daily with 1 tablespoon per gallon of water DAILY without water changes that probably stressed him?
> *
> If thats the case Im pretty pissed b/c when I moved to my new home I asked the guy at my LFS whom seemed to know his stuff and he said that you couldnt over dose with salt. I guess that was me not thinking.
> 
> ...


I got that info from a previous posting. Typo on your part maybe... I use aquarium pharmaceuticals master test kit. Reliable and dependable imo.
[/quote]
I do as well. how do you figure the ppms though?
[/quote]
The cards that come with the kits that are used to compare against the vials have numbers to the corresponding colors. Those numbers tell you ppm or mg/l. Both are the same measurement.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Dr. Giggles said:


> *I feel like such an idiot. So when I was dosing the tank daily with 1 tablespoon per gallon of water DAILY without water changes that probably stressed him?
> *
> If thats the case Im pretty pissed b/c when I moved to my new home I asked the guy at my LFS whom seemed to know his stuff and he said that you couldnt over dose with salt. I guess that was me not thinking.
> 
> ...


I got that info from a previous posting. Typo on your part maybe... I use aquarium pharmaceuticals master test kit. Reliable and dependable imo.
[/quote]
I do as well. how do you figure the ppms though?
[/quote]
The cards that come with the kits that are used to compare against the vials have numbers to the corresponding colors. Those numbers tell you ppm or mg/l. Both are the same measurement.
[/quote]

ok. well I just posted the newest measurements.


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

My stripper recommendation is too impractical for your immediate emergency. I don't want to be responsible if something goes wrong to your fish with a massive water change either so you are stuck with the option that everyone else is recommending with smaller water changes over an extended time. Either way there is some risk involved with your ammonia levels.

You should get the bio-spira and cross your fingers for 7 days.


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

Go to a Petco and try to find a disgruntled employee that will give you established biomedia from one of their tanks for a few bucks and your ammonia problems will be over a couple hours after you put it in your filter.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

shanker said:


> Go to a Petco and try to find a disgruntled employee that will give you established biomedia from one of their tanks for a few bucks and your ammonia problems will be over a couple hours after you put it in your filter.


THere is a bio wheel and was 2 bags of bio media in there for nearly 1.5-2 years.

I have 3 filters running on my trop tank. If I pull a bag of media out of there and literally place it IN the tank will that help?

While on the subject of media and Filtration. I have an eclipse 3 hood (250 GPH) and a Fluval 2 internal (? GPH but states it is a good supplemental filter for 20-30 gallons) running on this tank.

Would this be better then what I currently have?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A:IT&ih=008


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

HOw about this...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A:IT&ih=002?

Im not sure if my filtration is moving enough? I would say nearly 350-400 GPH at what I have now. 
IF I purchased something it would be in addition to what is currently there b/c there are slots in the back of the eclipse hood that would allow me to run them in the tank.

Am I wasting my time looking for larger filters? Is mine fine overall?


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

The fluval 304 would be a better choice over the magnum-The magnum should be strictly used for water polishing......You certainly need bio-which the 304 would handle......

Do I have this right man-
for filtration you have right now is an ecplipse hood(250 gal) and a fluval 2 that is an internal filter.......
Also what are you useing for bio media man?


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

notaverage said:


> Go to a Petco and try to find a disgruntled employee that will give you established biomedia from one of their tanks for a few bucks and your ammonia problems will be over a couple hours after you put it in your filter.


THere is a bio wheel and was 2 bags of bio media in there for nearly 1.5-2 years.

I have 3 filters running on my trop tank. If I pull a bag of media out of there and literally place it IN the tank will that help?

While on the subject of media and Filtration. I have an eclipse 3 hood (250 GPH) and a Fluval 2 internal (? GPH but states it is a good supplemental filter for 20-30 gallons) running on this tank.

Would this be better then what I currently have?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A:IT&ih=008
[/quote]

You should physically rub it against your biomedia in your 29 to get a good start. To solve your ammonia problem quickly try to find a Petco employee that will exchange fully developed media with brand new media. Very few of them are bound for the NASA mars mission. Walk up to one of the female employees and say "I want your sponge." It might get you the biomedia and laid.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

I threw a bag of bio media from my trop tank in there. I didantoher 25% water change. THe ammonia is still at about .50.

I will do another change tomorrow or Sunday.
His eyes are pretty bad but getting a little better. But only slightly!!
Should I do anything besides whter changes?


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

I brought the water to my local LFS and they use the same kit. 
The measurements were fine but about .50 for Ammonia!

Damn how long should this take? I have a LARGE bad of the original bio media in the tank itself about 6inX3In bag full of Matrix bio media by seachem.
Here is a link to the brand....

http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Matrix.html

Almost the entire container is being used in the tank. I have I bio wheel as well.

Should I get Ammo-chips to remove the ammonia?

What are your feelings on using that?


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## smithgrind_who (Mar 26, 2004)

notaverage said:


> I brought the water to my local LFS and they use the same kit.
> The measurements were fine but about .50 for Ammonia!
> 
> Damn how long should this take? I have a LARGE bad of the original bio media in the tank itself about 6inX3In bag full of Matrix bio media by seachem.
> ...


If that large bag of media is from an established tank, I would think it would only help increase the amount of beneficial bacteria. I have 29 gallon tank in the process of cycling and I have established mechanical media to help the process. It's been two weeks and the ammonia now hit 0ppm, but my nitrItes are stuck at 0.50ppm.

As for Ammo-chips, I am not fully educated as how the chemical exchange works. Advise from DonH is top notch, and hope things progress well.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

smithgrind_who said:


> I brought the water to my local LFS and they use the same kit.
> The measurements were fine but about .50 for Ammonia!
> 
> Damn how long should this take? I have a LARGE bad of the original bio media in the tank itself about 6inX3In bag full of Matrix bio media by seachem.
> ...


If that large bag of media is from an established tank, I would think it would only help increase the amount of beneficial bacteria. I have 29 gallon tank in the process of cycling and I have established mechanical media to help the process. It's been two weeks and the ammonia now hit 0ppm, but my nitrItes are stuck at 0.50ppm.

As for Ammo-chips, I am not fully educated as how the chemical exchange works. Advise from DonH is top notch, and hope things progress well.
[/quote]

Same here.
I did another 20% water change about an hour ago. I will test the water tomorrow.
His eyes are starting to clear up. I may buy a canister filter to add to the filter I have now and move the internal filter to my Trop tank.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Here are some pics...the cloudiness is disappearing and the eyes are gettting a bit better. I feel like such a rookie being this happened. 
Live and learn I guess.

Here they are.
I named him General Tso


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Glad to hear your on your way to recovery man------


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Yeah, me too...Im cutting feeding down to 1 time every 1-2 weeks and water change weekly just to make sure everything is ok.
Im also going to look into a powerhead AC70 possibly for the 29 gallon he is in and maybe a canister filter to add some more water turn over.


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