# something might me wrong with my reb belly



## philipwight

One of my fishs gills has kinda flipped out, i have no idea what to call it. And one of his eyes is all messed up but i though that was just a battle scar. Could he be kinda deformed? I got them when they were about the size of a quarter maybe less. And now they are about three inches, the flipping out of the gills just happened in the last few weeks. Does anyone know what could cause this?

http://www.funtigo.com/my240sx?b=15712&p=start

at the very bottom of the page are some pictures of this.


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## piranha 13

do you have a hospital tank?


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## philipwight

no but i could go get one, why?


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## piranha 13

Well because if he is hurt then you will need to treat him with a medication but you can't pour it in there with the other piranhas who are healthy.


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## philipwight

i have to figure out what is wrong with him beefore i can treat him. He doesnt acta ny different than the other piranhas, doesnt "breath" harder or anything. He is actually the most active of the small bunch.


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## thePACK

sometimes this happens to fish there gil flap the inside part curves.it has happened to some of my fish theres really nothing wrong and it won't hurt your fish .if possible if you can get a clear pic of it would be easiler to identify.


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## piranha 13

Explain a little more by what you mean by flipping out. Do you mean his gill is sticking out farther than usual?


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## philipwight

sorry not the actual gills, the layer of skin that protects the gills.(sorry i am new at this). Better pics should be on that same site now.


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## Judazzz

You mean like in this picture?

http://www.funtigo.com/go?i=i267644_92037.jpg

I agree it looks a bit reddish/enflamed, but don't know what it is, and it doesn't look very threatening to me (but I'm not expert...







). It might be an ammonia burn (due to bad water quality...).

Try a large water change and add some salt to the water (1 tblspoon per 5-10 gallons) and see if this works. Upping the temperature could also help.

Anyways: good luck, and if I were you, I shouldn't worry too much about it, even more because you said he's still the most active of the bunch...


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## DiXoN

i have seen this on a larger red in a lfs the flesh at the end of the gill was curled this p was @ 10'' dont know what it was though but i would check into this more as it does not look good


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## Xenon

moved to disease and parasite....


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## bobme

i salt water dunk wouldnt hurt / kill him, why not give it a shot?


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## philipwight

just add some salt to the tank? Regular table salt or is there a special salt to get? I bought some AmQuel today and was going to do a partial change and add that stuff to the new water. Thank you for all the help.

philip


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## philipwight

nevermind i did a search and found out to only use aquarium salt.


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## Innes

piranha 13 said:


> Well because if he is hurt then you will need to treat him with a medication but you can't pour it in there with the other piranhas who are healthy.


that is rubbish.

you should half the dosage of medicines with piranhas, but you can treat an entire tank, and sometimes it is good to do so.
the gill could have been damaged by another fish, or something I have never seen before (I cant get a good look at it in the pics)
personally I would do a 40% water change, and add 1 tablespoon of salt per every 5 gallons, also I would keep an eye on the fish for improvements/deteriation.
I would do a 25-30 water change 4 days later, and then every week.
also if you want to add a medicine I would reccomend Myaxin(sp) it should have some green on the box.


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## philipwight

i have done two 30% changes and added salt each time and it doesnt look to be getting better. What now? Get that med and see what happens?


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## Innes

yeah, or melafix. also better pics might help


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## DonH

I would not recommend putting any other meds in your tank. From the looks of your pics, your piranha has gill curl...primarily caused by poor water conditions (high ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) or cramped living quarters.

If caught early (curl only affecting the soft membrane) the problem can be corrected by keeping your water pristine. It seems like the curl has already affected the gill plate. If that's the case, only surgery can correct it so the gill plate can regenerate flush with the body.

Did you acquire the fish in that condition or did it appear over time? It could also be genetic.


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## philipwight

the gill curl appeared over time.... but has gotten worse. They might be cramped. I have them in a 29 gal. I just got a 120 gal but it is not set up yet. Don H do you think the new living quarter and some treatment will fix this or is it too late.

thanks


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## philipwight

ohh yeah and the ammonia might be a little high.... i had a breeders net in there with about 36 or so small feeders in it at a time. I have been told that goldfish put off alot of ammonia. That has been taken out of there. Is the salt that i am adding going to kill my plecos?


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## SnowCichlid.

Ouch thats looking pretty bad, lookes like you might have yorself a conditions that almost always deadly, sorry to tell you that... As for the eye thing I cannot see it, but I am assuming it is pop-eye caused from bad water conditions
... Let me do ome more research and see waht i can find for you now


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## DonH

How overstocked is your tank? It didn't look like you had too many fish in there. As for the feeders, they should definitely be taken out...not because of ammonia but due to possible parasitic/bacterial/fungal infection. Feeders should always be quarantined in a separate tank.

Your fish definitely has gill curl if it has occurred over time (as opposed to it being genetic). Keep up the water changes until the ammonia/nitrite is down. Don't add any meds for the moment, it will slow down the nitrification process and won't help your water parameters. The eye condition could also be due to poor water conditions (ammonia burn) but it's hard to judge by the pics.

The pics of the gill curl look pretty advanced because you can see it has already reached the gill plate and the gill filaments are visible. There is a lengthy thread regarding gill curl on the other predatory fish forum (under general discussion) that might be able to give you more details and the steps to take if you do decide to have surgery correct the problem. Good luck...


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## philipwight

my piranha doesnt have and eye condition....

i am about a week away from moving them into a 120gal tank, with a seperate feeder tank. I have taken all the feeders out.


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## SnowCichlid.

I was looking over the pictures again and it seems to me like it could be either Gill flukes or Gill rots. Both are very difficult to treat. If it is gill flukes however you may have cought it early and be able to recover it. If it is Gill rots then you are in pretty big trouble now and might not make it.
This may also be its reaction to unstable or improper water parameters, but may lead to some trouble.


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## philipwight

Since i am about to move the fish into a bigger tank what should i do to that water to get it suitable for the sick fish, The only other tank i will have is a 10 gal feeder. Should i put him in the 10 gal and get meds for him?

What meds should i use since we kinda know what the problem is. Someone said melafix, but since we think it is gill fluke or rots should i use something different or will that cure it?

How come none of my other fish got this?

Ohh yeah and about the eye thing, it has just been smaller than the other one....sorry i forgot that i mentioned that at the start.


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## SnowCichlid.

philipwight said:


> Ohh yeah and about the eye thing, it has just been smaller than the other one....sorry i forgot that i mentioned that at the start.


 what exactly do you mean? one eye is smaller than the other, Is it protroding from the face?
...I would keep this in the 10G as a hospital tank if you can as well

Good luck, try going to your local LFS they will be able to recomend the newest and most advanced treatmesnts for the problem, have you tried a General cure yet?

are your water parameters staying constant, keep an eye on them.


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## DonH

Is the fish flashing or scraping against rocks, gravel or driftwood aggressively? If not, then it is not likely that it's gill flukes. Flukes symptoms may include swollen gills, rapid breathing/labored breathing, and flashing but the gill will not curl up in that fashion.

As for gill disease, that only affects the gill filaments...not the gill plate. It's true that in advanced stages of gill disease, the gills will appear swollen, but again, the gills will not curl. Gill disease is due to a secondary bacterial infection initially caused by parasites and/or poor water conditions (high ammonia/nitrite, low dissolved oxygen). Again, I don't think it is either gill fluke nor gill rot, but that's your call...

I believe that improper diagnosis of disease and the extensive use of meds have killed more fish than the disease itself. Many people are too anxious to dump meds in their tanks when their fish just don't seem to look right. Most of the time, the cure is just a simple series of water changes and _maybe_ the addition of salt. For example, General cure was recommended to treat your fish's condition. It contains copper sulphate (a general parasiticide), trichlorfon (for treatment of anchor worm and fish lice), and metronidazole (treatment of internal parasites or hexamita). That is a BROAD spectrum medication designed for people who have absolutely no idea what to treat for, so why not treat for everything! If your interested in that, I would suggest you look into potassium permanganate. It will kill parasites, cure bacterial/fungal infections, clear up green water, and a bunch of other things because it will oxidize everything. The problem? A slight miscalculation if volume of water or strength to use...and you have dead fish. It's better to isolate the problem (example, anchorworms) and just treat for it (with Anchors-Away, Dylox, trichlorfon).

Enough preaching...good luck with your treatment.


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## philipwight

I got a water test done and it doesnt look good. 
PH- 6.2
chlorine- 0.0
amm.- 3.0
nitrite- .5
Nitrate- 60
hardness- 200
alk.- 40

i also got some melafix. should i add it or not. I also went and got a 10gal that i have set up for my hospital tank. I did a 30% water change int the 29 gal and used about 6 of that for the ten gal and added water to both. THe water looks very cloudy. What next? Thanks


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## philipwight

can anyone tell me what i should do to bring down the ammonia.


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## Innes

water changes


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## hastatus

> I believe that improper diagnosis of disease and the extensive use of meds have killed more fish than the disease itself.


I would seriously consider what DonH has written because his advice is same as mine would have been and his advice is very sound advice. I have seen this condition on S. rhombeus there were cramped into too small of an aquario and poor water conditons. When a friend and I rescued the fish from the dealer, I did surgery on the curl by snipping the part off, treating it with anti-biotics and then keeping proper water conditions. The fish which is pictured under my S. rhombeus page has/is doing well.


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## Innes

hastatus said:


> I believe that improper diagnosis of disease and the extensive use of meds have killed more fish than the disease itself.
> 
> 
> 
> I would seriously consider what DonH has written because his advice is same as mine would have been and his advice is very sound advice.
Click to expand...

 I am wondering what you mean?
do you think he stole your advice?, or that he just really knows his stuff? or that somehow he reached into your brain and stole your ideas, knowledge and way of thinking?


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## hastatus

> I am wondering what you mean?
> do you think he stole your advice?, or that he just really knows his stuff? or that somehow he reached into your brain and stole your ideas, knowledge and way of thinking?


I don't think he is capable of stealing ideas from my brain nor do I think he stole my advice. Another good example of reading to much into a reply. To put it simply, DonH does know his stuff and his advice would have been no different than mine had I been interested in this topic earlier. Clear enough?


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## Innes

Oh, I get it








He does have very good advice


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## hastatus

> Oh, I get it He does have very good advice


 Yes he does, and I support him on it.


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## Judazzz

Yeah, I don't think they made him mentor at predfish if he didn't know his stuff


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## hastatus

> Yeah, I don't think they made him mentor at predfish if he didn't know his stuff


 Really? Well belated congratulations. I do go to Pfish, but not often enough. It is and remains a good info board for piranas and DonH has always given good sound advice in the majority of posts I have read from him (Innes---do not read into _DonH has always given good sound advice in the majority of posts_ as meaning anything more than a compliment!).


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## Innes

hastatus said:


> (Innes---do not read into _DonH has always given good sound advice in the majority of posts_ as meaning anything more than a compliment!).


 LOL


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## DonH

hastatus said:


> Yeah, I don't think they made him mentor at predfish if he didn't know his stuff
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Well belated congratulations. DonH has always given good sound advice in the majority of posts I have read from him
Click to expand...

 Thanks guys!

Frank, what do you mean in the _majority_ of posts?









Just kidding...


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## hastatus

> Frank, what do you mean in the majority of posts?
> 
> Just kidding...


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