# Might buy a small handgun for "primitive camping."



## fishguy1313 (Feb 19, 2007)

Some of the places I go camping are home to the mountain lion/puma/cougar. I'm going to Missouri a few times this summer and supposedly there are a few mountain lions in the area. I'm pretty much going to be alone fishing. Thinking about packing a little heat. I have a bunch of rifles and shot guns, but no hand guns. I am not willing to spend a lot of money on a handgun, so AKSkirmish don't be pointing me in the direction of a $1,000 hand gun. I'm talking maybe a used .22 for a hundred bucks or something.

Anyone got any good info for me... ???


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## Mattones (Jul 9, 2006)

Desert Eagle. hahaha


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## Plowboy (Apr 9, 2008)

Unless you place it pretty much perfect, I dont think a .22 would get much done on a mountain lion. Especially one with a good grouch on.


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

a .22 will just really piss off a mountain lion.

browning use to make a 20ga youth BPS pump, 22 inch barrel just mount up a sling and reload some slugs.


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## Plowboy (Apr 9, 2008)

I like the youth 20ga pump idea


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## khmerboiRED (Jul 15, 2008)

Plowboy said:


> Unless you place it pretty much perfect, I dont think a .22 would get much done on a mountain lion. Especially one with a good grouch on.


That's what i was thinking.


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## stonecoldsteveostin (Nov 15, 2003)

ive loaded a chipmunk with about 10 .22 bullets before it stopped moving and died.....a .22 wouldnt do anything to a mountain lion


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

Yeah, I wouldn't go shooting a cougar with a .22 unless you really want to piss it off.

I'd go with a .357 Mag.


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

x 10 what everybody else said.

just get a nice .44 and learn to use it well.over time you will realize you needed nothing less.


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## greenmonkey51 (Aug 16, 2004)

I wouldn't be worrying about cougars in Missouri. There's been 10 sightings in modern times. So you factor the chance of seeing one, and then the chance that it would attack you. I'm pretty sure you have a better chance winning the lottery. If you want a gun, get one. Don't make an excuse for it.


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

For primitive hunting eh?I suggest a .50 caliber 5 shot ball and cap blackpowder pistol.I'm serious it's only lethal for 20 yrds or less,which is the range you need it for.If it hits anything at the noted range it is going TEAR sh*t UP.It would definetly hurt larger mammals enough to make a point,and if you miss it makes a hellva lot of noise.It's just a loud if not louder than a .44 and creates a big boom.So if your aim fails you the sound might not.I know people will snicker but try one and if in the states cheap and easy.


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## SERRAPYGO (Feb 4, 2003)

RedneckR0nin said:


> For primitive hunting eh?I suggest a .50 caliber 5 shot ball and cap blackpowder pistol.I'm serious it's only lethal for 20 yrds or less,which is the range you need it for.If it hits anything at the noted range it is going TEAR sh*t UP.It would definetly hurt larger mammals enough to make a point,and if you miss it makes a hellva lot of noise.It's just a loud if not louder than a .44 and creates a big boom.So if your aim fails you the sound might not.I know people will snicker but try one and if in the states cheap and easy.


For chance encounters, not hunting!

I wouldn't feel safe with anything less than a .40 cal where big predators loom. Beyond that, you'll be spending way over your budget. You will anyway. You can't get a decent bb gun for $100.


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

I know who would hunt with a ball and cap but for chance encounters it's perfect.It won't go off in your pants and again it's louder than a alarm clock while hungover.


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## Plowboy (Apr 9, 2008)

I still think the 20ga with slugs would be the cheapest route, and it has a hell of a lot more knockdown than any pistol. I bet you could find an old 20ga 870, 1300, or whatever mossberg makes for $150 easy


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

Plowboy said:


> I still think the 20ga with slugs would be the cheapest route, and it has a hell of a lot more knockdown than any pistol. I bet you could find an old 20ga 870, 1300, or whatever mossberg makes for $150 easy


I agree with that as well a shotgun with slugs will be better that a hand cannon for sure.


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## Plowboy (Apr 9, 2008)

RedneckR0nin said:


> I still think the 20ga with slugs would be the cheapest route, and it has a hell of a lot more knockdown than any pistol. I bet you could find an old 20ga 870, 1300, or whatever mossberg makes for $150 easy


I agree with that as well a shotgun with slugs will be better that a hand cannon for sure.
[/quote]

Plus you can split load the shotty. Shove a slug in for the first round just for the odd chance you see him from a ways away, and stack the rest of the pipe with shot shells for the close up less than perfect aiming your probably going to encounter.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

fishguy1313 said:


> Some of the places I go camping are home to the mountain lion/puma/cougar. I'm going to Missouri a few times this summer and supposedly there are a few mountain lions in the area. I'm pretty much going to be alone fishing. Thinking about packing a little heat. I have a bunch of rifles and shot guns, but no hand guns. I am not willing to spend a lot of money on a handgun, so AKSkirmish don't be pointing me in the direction of a $1,000 hand gun. I'm talking maybe a used .22 for a hundred bucks or something.
> 
> Anyone got any good info for me... ???


I'm glad you asked....a .22 is something that will just really piss off about anyone and anything....

That is unless you left out the 3 in .223?

Good luck...I would say at least a .357 mag.


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## EZmoney (May 13, 2004)

Forget the cougars and lions... in missouri, you need to watch out for people who would want you to squeal like a pig!


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## Puff (Feb 14, 2005)

i live in BC...in the city. but regularly have encounters with bears (at least one up close one a year) and cougars (much rarer).

i dont think you understand how insignificant a .22 round is to an animal the size of a bear or cougar. tbh you are better off with a knife if you are going to bring a .22. everytime you shot the animal it would be like you kicked it in the nuts just a little bit harder. it would be furious. you need some major stopping power to stop real north american predators.

up here i wouldnt carry anything less than a .357, and i might even think about going bigger. a pissed off animal is a dangerous animal. so kill it before it can get too pissed off.

that said, im wanting to get a firearm, but the gf is freakin CHOKED about it. for some reason she hates guns. she gets a kick out of firing my CO2 pistol, but will not go near gunpower fueled rounds. i'll be like, "hey, come out back and shoot targets with me!", and she'll say, "nice. ill be right out."

she's a crazy shot. i seriously dont understand it. she hates guns, wont go near real ones, but can shoot the lights out with an air pistol (i know they arent the same...but...), but she seriously will not touch a real gun. i was talking about getting my licenses and stuff and she got straight up pissed off. "not in my house" "wah wah wah"...i bring up the fact that it wouldnt be loaded, and it would be in a gun locker (its the law here), still no movement. i dont understand it!

my buddy's gf (who is a close friend of my gf) is the same way. she even grew up shooting gophers in alberta, but she wont let her man get a freakin gun!


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

Ya know... after thinking about it... just go with a freakin' LAW (Light Anti Tank Weapon.)
You can't lose with one of those.


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## JD7.62 (Apr 7, 2005)

If you are seriosuly afraid of cougars, Remington 870 3" 12ga with 18.5" barrel.


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

fishguy1313 said:


> I'm talking maybe a used .22 for a hundred bucks or something.
> Anyone got any good info for me... ???


The problem with Cougars is 90% of the time when the cat attacks, it does so from ambush (it's literally hunting you for food). It's on you before you have a chance to react. Personally I'd go for something in a short barreled .357 or .44 mag. Anything in a smaller caliber will just make it all the more pissed off, and a shotgun is kind of hard to use when there's 50lbs of pissed off cat attached to your face.
If you can't afford a decent piece, another deterrent that works amazingly well is pepper spray.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

Piranha Dan said:


> I'm talking maybe a used .22 for a hundred bucks or something.
> Anyone got any good info for me... ???


The problem with Cougars is 90% of the time when the cat attacks, it does so from ambush (it's literally hunting you for food). It's on you before you have a chance to react. Personally I'd go for something in a short barreled .357 or .44 mag. Anything in a smaller caliber will just make it all the more pissed off, and a shotgun is kind of hard to use when there's 50lbs of pissed off cat attached to your face.
If you can't afford a decent piece, another deterrent that works amazingly well is pepper spray.
[/quote]

You're right about the ambush thing.
There are a lot of cougars here in the Central Oregon Desert.
An attack is so freakin' rare... it's probably more likely you're gonna get hit by lightning.

These animals are so aloof it's a major rarity to even see one- ever.


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

Yea, more then likely they'll hear you coming and run. In all the years I've been hunting, camping, etc I've ever seen two wild cats. Both were Bobcats and both were running in the opposite direction of me.


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## Puff (Feb 14, 2005)

Piranha_man said:


> I'm talking maybe a used .22 for a hundred bucks or something.
> Anyone got any good info for me... ???


The problem with Cougars is 90% of the time when the cat attacks, it does so from ambush (it's literally hunting you for food). It's on you before you have a chance to react. Personally I'd go for something in a short barreled .357 or .44 mag. Anything in a smaller caliber will just make it all the more pissed off, and a shotgun is kind of hard to use when there's 50lbs of pissed off cat attached to your face.
If you can't afford a decent piece, another deterrent that works amazingly well is pepper spray.
[/quote]

You're right about the ambush thing.
There are a lot of cougars here in the Central Oregon Desert.
An attack is so freakin' rare... it's probably more likely you're gonna get hit by lightning.

*These animals are so aloof it's a major rarity to even see one- ever.*
[/quote]

i've seen one once i believe. that said, the last two summers there has been one living in and around this trail that we take the dogs on. the thing was stalking ppl through the bushes. luckily one of my dogs is huge and a deterrent to the thing, but its odd walking 5 minutes from her house and having to worry about a cougar stalking you. bears are another thing though. im not as concerned with the usual "city" bears like black and brown bears. im not sure if there is even a documented case of a black or brown bear stalking someone. i know grizzlies are different, but black and brown bears are pretty harmless. when cougars start stalking humans you know they're desperate.

that said, i saw a freakin lynx/bobcat (whatever lives in BC) a couple of months or so ago on my gf's street. all of a sudden the dogs went totally still and stared ahead. i looked up, and this bobcat was just chilling there sitting on the street looking at us. then it got up and ran off. i saw another lynx/bobcat as it ran across the highway near Whistler. that was bizarre, it was the middle of the day! bobcats are extremely elusive animals and rarely show themselves, especially during the day. pretty awesome, wish i had a camera


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Just carry a flare gun and set one of them bastards on fire.......









I'll see what I can come up with for ya.....


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## Plowboy (Apr 9, 2008)

AKSkirmish said:


> Just carry a flare gun and set one of them bastards on fire.......:nod:
> 
> I'll see what I can come up with for ya.....


Can you get it in a revolver?


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Plowboy said:


> Just carry a flare gun and set one of them bastards on fire.......:nod:
> 
> I'll see what I can come up with for ya.....


Can you get it in a revolver?
[/quote]

Flare gun-
Yes :nod:


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## Plowboy (Apr 9, 2008)

Thats awesome. Packin one of those things would give me a pretty nasty rambo complex!


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## EZmoney (May 13, 2004)

Since you want to do some "primitive camping", I would suggest primitive weapons to keep the theme of the trip - throwing spears, boomerangs, and bow & arrows!


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## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

A guy from FWP told me that for every wild cat you see (bobcat, mountain lion etc) that atleast 5 see you... really you would have no heads up if you were getting attacked... cats are known for being quiet and ambush hunters, so plan on drawing and shooting while its on top of you latched onto your throat

I carry a S&W .44 mag, or the slightly smaller .357 whenever i go out... even riding my dirtbike i have had 2 run-ins with bears, that werent the slightest bit intimidated by my loud ass motocross bike


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

get a K-bar. call it a day.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

I would say Fuc it and carry a taser-Nothing like a taser to all that Muscle....

Other than that-I would have to agree on a fixed blade knife-----Nice kydex sheath with Tek lock...

Basically if the cat wants you-Your screwed man....Only chance you have is to get that bastard off of ya-IMO

I'll keep looking though....Any gun I can think of will easily cost several hundred unless found at pawn shop....


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## Ibanez247 (Nov 9, 2006)

Heh. No handgun is going to save you from a mountainlion. Anyone whos been attacked by one didnt know it until well they were being attacked. Keep a knife on you. As AKS said, a taser will be better than a hand gun at that point. The odds of you ever seeing a mountain lion are pretty frikn rare. Id be more worried about a bear. Then again a pistol will only piss it off. Damn it AKS beat my post. Same ideas. IF the cats wants you itll get you and you wont even know it.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

Ibanez247 said:


> Heh. No handgun is going to save you from a mountainlion. Anyone whos been attacked by one didnt know it until well they were being attacked. Keep a knife on you. As AKS said, a taser will be better than a hand gun at that point. The odds of you ever seeing a mountain lion are pretty frikn rare. *Id be more worried about a bear. Then again a pistol will only piss it off.* Damn it AKS beat my post. Same ideas. IF the cats wants you itll get you and you wont even know it.


Depends on the handgun.
A .50 caliber would handle even a grizzly.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

Here's a pretty badass cougar mother protecting her young:


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## fishguy1313 (Feb 19, 2007)

I'm not surprised with the answers you guys have posted for me. After all this is Pfury and half of you are gun wielding crazy motherfuckers. BUT.... I am going to have to disagree with anyone that says "All a .22 will do is piss it off." If you think a tazer is a better bet than a center-fire, you are ridiculous. A poorly placed .22 AT POINT BLANK is going to do ALOT more damage than any tazer or knife. I know someone that committed suicide with a .22. Anyways, someone mentioned a shotgun.... I just wanted something kind of small. I have a dozen shotguns.

Anyways, a mountain lion that is on the ambush is figuring whatever he's going to attack is going to be an easy kill. He thinks he's not going to get hurt. I guarantee if he is shot withing several yards with a .22 he is going to run for the f*cking hills and bleed and possibly die. He will never be the same. Just my opinion.

Thanks for all your replys, even though I don't agree with most of them!!!


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

fishguy1313 said:


> Some of the places I go camping are home to the mountain lion/puma/cougar. I'm going to Missouri a few times this summer and supposedly there are a few mountain lions in the area. I'm pretty much going to be alone fishing. Thinking about packing a little heat. I have a bunch of rifles and shot guns, but no hand guns. I am not willing to spend a lot of money on a handgun, so AKSkirmish don't be pointing me in the direction of a $1,000 hand gun. I'm talking maybe a used .22 for a hundred bucks or something.
> 
> Anyone got any good info for me... ???


sorry, but a .22 caliber gun is not going to kill anything bigger than a squirrel. maybe a raccoon if you shot it dead in the skull. but no, a .22 will not kill a mountain lion OR a bear. their skin and bones are much thicker than you think. most gun enthusiasts will say that even a .357 magnum is the bare minimum for bear/lion defense. if you're just looking for an all-around use hand gun then there's nothing better than a revolver. easy to maintain, high caliber, versatile ammo (you can pick many different loads without worry of jamming), and big power. i'd recommend a .44 magnum, but if you go that route you absolute must train with it. shooting a .44 in the heat of the moment might send it flying from your hands. if a 44 is too big for you then you can use a .357. use solid rounds and learn to shoot it. ie no JHP rounds because of bear/lions thick hides.

but realistically the best defense for close range big predators is a shotgun. 2 rounds of 00-buck followed by slugs.


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## blbig50 (Jan 1, 2009)

These guys are crazy, just buy a bazooka :laugh:


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## fishguy1313 (Feb 19, 2007)

I don't think I'm going to reconsider. A .22 at close range is going to do a lot of damage. Maybe not immediate death, but definitely a real wound. Don't get me wrong. I really don't believe that a .22 would stop a bear by any means. The mountain lions in our area are around 120 lbs. They are formidable, but not huge animals by any means.


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## -NBKK- (Jun 22, 2007)

Skunkbudfour20 said:


> A guy from FWP told me that for every wild cat you see (bobcat, mountain lion etc) that atleast 5 see you... really you would have no heads up if you were getting attacked... cats are known for being quiet and ambush hunters, so plan on drawing and shooting while its on top of you latched onto your throat
> 
> I carry a S&W .44 mag, or the slightly smaller .357 whenever i go out... even riding my dirtbike i have had 2 run-ins with bears, that werent the slightest bit intimidated by my loud ass motocross bike


I agree, a Cougar attacking you isn't like the movies.

How many centuries have these large cats been hunting with stocking and deadly stealth tactics ? Not to mention they have the hardware to take down a moose.

Better practice your quick draw.


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## Plowboy (Apr 9, 2008)

fishguy1313 said:


> I don't think I'm going to reconsider. A .22 at close range is going to do a lot of damage. Maybe not immediate death, but definitely a real wound. Don't get me wrong. I really don't believe that a .22 would stop a bear by any means. The mountain lions in our area are around 120 lbs. They are formidable, but not huge animals by any means.


Sometimes we use a .22 to put Down really sick ccattle, and even at really close range we've heard and seen the round bounce off their skull. I've even seen it happen with badgers on their skull and shoulder blades. Trying to stop a mountain lion with a .22 is like trying to kill a cat with a pellet gun.... It will die, but its going to take a lot longer than you have if you even have time for the first shot.


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## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Plowboy said:


> I don't think I'm going to reconsider. A .22 at close range is going to do a lot of damage. Maybe not immediate death, but definitely a real wound. Don't get me wrong. I really don't believe that a .22 would stop a bear by any means. The mountain lions in our area are around 120 lbs. They are formidable, but not huge animals by any means.


Sometimes we use a .22 to put Down really sick ccattle, and even at really close range we've heard and seen the round bounce off their skull. I've even seen it happen with badgers on their skull and shoulder blades. Trying to stop a mountain lion with a .22 is like trying to kill a cat with a pellet gun.... It will die, but its going to take a lot longer than you have if you even have time for the first shot.
[/quote]

Yeah, not going through a skull unless you shoot it in the eye directly, and even a rib or sternum would stop a .22... it will prob just feel like getting poked with a red hot iron and you would slowly bleed out or have internal problems. i dont know about you but that would porb make me more angry, and want to further beat you about the head and shoulder region

Even being scratched by a house cat hurts... now imagine a paw 20 times that size going across your face or stomach


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

fishguy1313 said:


> I don't think I'm going to reconsider. A .22 at close range is going to do a lot of damage. *Maybe not immediate death*, but definitely a real wound. Don't get me wrong. I really don't believe that a .22 would stop a bear by any means. *The mountain lions in our area are around 120 lbs. They are formidable, but not huge animals by any means.*


So you want the animal that attacked you to die 6-12 months after the attack... never had a pissed maincoon (sp? aka big f*cking farm cat) try and rip your face off.


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

What's a bob-cat weigh 40lbs?
You need to trap a bob-cat throw it in a burlap sack, shake the sh*t out it then walk in to the bath-room with the lights off and release it. tell me all you need is a .22...ha!
/hopes fish guy has health insurance as good as R1


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## Plowboy (Apr 9, 2008)

06 C6 LS2 said:


> What's a bob-cat weigh 40lbs?
> You need to trap a bob-cat throw it in a burlap sack, shake the sh*t out it then walk in to the bath-room with the lights off and release it. tell me all you need is a .22...ha!
> /hopes fish guy has health insurance as good as R1


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## stonecoldsteveostin (Nov 15, 2003)

fishguy1313 said:


> I don't think I'm going to reconsider. A .22 at close range is going to do a lot of damage. Maybe not immediate death, but definitely a real wound. Don't get me wrong. I really don't believe that a .22 would stop a bear by any means. The mountain lions in our area are around 120 lbs. They are formidable, but not huge animals by any means.


that number doesnt seem so huge when you compare it to yourself or other people but you have to remember that these animals are basically solid muscle, not much body fat on them at all.


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

fishguy1313 said:


> I am going to have to disagree with anyone that says "All a .22 will do is piss it off."


You can disagree all you want , you'll still be wrong. .22 has zero stopping power and very little penetration, even at point blank. Former President Ronald Regan was shot in the arm with one during an attempted asassination attempt and didn't even realize it till several hours later.
Oh, and whoever said a handgun can't stop a bear obviously missed the pic I put up of my favorite toy.
View attachment 178744

Magnum Research BFR. Chambered for .500 S&W. f*ck the bear, I could knock down a buffalo with this baby.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

stonecoldsteveostin said:


> I don't think I'm going to reconsider. A .22 at close range is going to do a lot of damage. Maybe not immediate death, but definitely a real wound. Don't get me wrong. I really don't believe that a .22 would stop a bear by any means. The mountain lions in our area are around 120 lbs. They are formidable, but not huge animals by any means.


that number doesnt seem so huge when you compare it to yourself or other people but you have to remember that these animals are basically solid muscle, not much body fat on them at all.
[/quote]

Exactly.
Take my female dobermann for example... 60 pounds and she'll rip a man to shreds.
A cat that's twice as big with teeth and 4 sets of claws... holy wow.


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## fishguy1313 (Feb 19, 2007)

I do not doubt that any of you offer solid information.







All I know is I don't want to spend major $$$ on such a firearm I'm probably not going to use.

How about a .32 ? Is the .357 the smallest caliber I can truly get away with?

Continue ------------------>


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

fishguy1313 said:


> I do not doubt that any of you offer solid information.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is the Taurus "judge" out of the ?-.45/410....I would feel secure with that.....Could find one used probably for a decent price...


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

That's probably out of his price range too. Cheapest Judge I've ever seen went for about $400. Nice gun though. Probably would raise some eyebrows when I start shoving shotgun shells into a handgun at the range.








<edit>
Fishguy, did you notice I mentioned pepperspray as a cheaper alternative? You can get a small canister for like $30.


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

if you're not going to spend the money then get pepper spray. a .22 is not going to kill/hurt/stop a mountain lion unless you shoot it in the head (unlikely under pressure). A .22 will take down larger game if it penetrates the skull b/c the bullet is so small it actually bounces around and wipes out brain matter. Have you ever shot a gun? if you're trying to be cheap get a 12ga single shot center break cheap ass shotgun and saw it off. just don't miss or tell anyone

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_in...ducts_id=107905

I love the Judge. it's really crappily made, but just fun as sh*t to shoot.


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## Plowboy (Apr 9, 2008)

Boobah said:


> if you're not going to spend the money then get pepper spray. a .22 is not going to kill/hurt/stop a mountain lion unless you shoot it in the head (unlikely under pressure). A .22 will take down larger game if it penetrates the skull b/c the bullet is so small it actually bounces around and wipes out brain matter. Have you ever shot a gun? if you're trying to be cheap get a 12ga single shot center break cheap ass shotgun and saw it off. *just don't miss or tell anyone
> *
> http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_in...ducts_id=107905
> 
> I love the Judge. it's really crappily made, but just fun as sh*t to shoot.


Its not illegal to saw them off in any of the states around us. The limit for SD is 16" of barrel and 22" overall, but i havent checked for a while though, so I could be off a bit.

And he doesnt need to get a whole new shotgun. Just buy a used barrel, cut it off, and stuff it on his normal shotgun. Hell if he was shooting a benilli I would probably give him a couple barrels. You should be able to get a used/damn near wore out barrel at pretty much any gun shop for $15 or less. ours has a whole pile of them to sell cheap, but i live in the guts of pheasant country.


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## Liquid (Aug 24, 2004)

Mattones said:


> Desert Eagle. hahaha


lol agreed, the only thing a 22 is going to do to a bear is give him a hard on.


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## JD7.62 (Apr 7, 2005)

Plowboy said:


> if you're not going to spend the money then get pepper spray. a .22 is not going to kill/hurt/stop a mountain lion unless you shoot it in the head (unlikely under pressure). A .22 will take down larger game if it penetrates the skull b/c the bullet is so small it actually bounces around and wipes out brain matter. Have you ever shot a gun? if you're trying to be cheap get a 12ga single shot center break cheap ass shotgun and saw it off. *just don't miss or tell anyone
> *
> http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_in...ducts_id=107905
> 
> I love the Judge. it's really crappily made, but just fun as sh*t to shoot.


Its not illegal to saw them off in any of the states around us. The limit for SD is 16" of barrel and 22" overall, but i havent checked for a while though, so I could be off a bit.

And he doesnt need to get a whole new shotgun. Just buy a used barrel, cut it off, and stuff it on his normal shotgun. Hell if he was shooting a benilli I would probably give him a couple barrels. You should be able to get a used/damn near wore out barrel at pretty much any gun shop for $15 or less. ours has a whole pile of them to sell cheap, but i live in the guts of pheasant country.
[/quote]

Its 16" barrel length for rifle and 18.5" for shotgun. Anything shorter is an NFA item.


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## Liquid (Aug 24, 2004)

can't touch the barrel in NY state no matter how long it is.


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## Plowboy (Apr 9, 2008)

JD7.62 said:


> Its 16" barrel length for rifle and 18.5" for shotgun. Anything shorter is an NFA item.


Thanks for the info! Figured I was messed up


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

fishguy1313 said:


> I don't think I'm going to reconsider. A .22 at close range is going to do a lot of damage. Maybe not immediate death, but definitely a real wound. Don't get me wrong. I really don't believe that a .22 would stop a bear by any means. The mountain lions in our area are around 120 lbs. They are formidable, but not huge animals by any means.


trust me dude, a .22 is not going to stop a mountain lion. if it did, then all the people that travel in wilderness would carry one for lion/bear defense. a .22 is meant for small game. and if you're not a pistol marksman then consider it nothing more than a blunt object to hammer with. mountain lions have incredibly thick skulls and jaws and thats the only place you can bother hitting it with point blank.

you can get a used .357 (maybe a taurus) for a couple hundred bucks and its a worthy investment. or you can buy a mossberg 500 or remington 870 for 200-300 used at a hunting store. be smart and spend the extra 100-200 to buy something you can actually rely on. if you don't want to then buy bear mace, it'll be a much better bet and more reliable than a .22. any website, magazine, professional big game hunter or avid gunman will tell you that the absolute minimum for safety is a .357 magnum. plus they come in small 3" barrel lengths which make for easy carry.

this has been discussed many many times on other forums.


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## fishguy1313 (Feb 19, 2007)

You guys are pretty good at persuasion. I'm going up to the pawn shop in a few days. I'll see what they have. I just don't want to put a lot of money into a handgun. Everyone keeps mentioning the shotgun. I have plenty. No, I'm not going to saw one off either. That's retarded. One of those "Taurus" hand guns would be sweet. They shoot .45's and .410 shot gun shells. Outta my price range. May have to buy the "bear mace."


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## Liquid (Aug 24, 2004)

fishguy1313 said:


> You guys are pretty good at persuasion. I'm going up to the pawn shop in a few days. I'll see what they have. I just don't want to put a lot of money into a handgun. Everyone keeps mentioning the shotgun. I have plenty. No, I'm not going to saw one off either. That's retarded. One of those "Taurus" hand guns would be sweet. They shoot .45's and .410 shot gun shells. *Outta my price range. May have to buy the "bear mace."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We don't have mountain lions around here we just have bears. lol If you're dealing with both you're better off with buck shot. Mountain lions ambush and I've heard they're very persistent sometimes tracking their prey all day before actually making a move. If I were you I'd definitely bring a shotgun and a very large knife just in case you get one on your ass and need to get a point across lol I just don't think mace will do the trick.


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

fishguy1313 said:


> You guys are pretty good at persuasion. I'm going up to the pawn shop in a few days. I'll see what they have. I just don't want to put a lot of money into a handgun. Everyone keeps mentioning the shotgun. I have plenty. No, I'm not going to saw one off either. That's retarded. One of those "Taurus" hand guns would be sweet. They shoot .45's and .410 shot gun shells. Outta my price range. May have to buy the "bear mace."


GU (guns unlimited) has/had (if sold) a browning bps 20ga youth for $275 which means its yours if you offer $200-225....

I was trying to get a "judge" for for few months with no luck bass pro, cabelas, GU, and other's cant keep them in stock(locally)...


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## fishguy1313 (Feb 19, 2007)

I like the idea of a handgun becuase I can keep it on my person. If I bring a shotgun, I really can't fish at the same time.


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

you do realize you can buy a sling or back holster

if you must have 22 pistol look into the browning buckmark 22, I'm biased since thats the only 22 I've owned.


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## fishguy1313 (Feb 19, 2007)

My god... you guys are stubborn mules... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ back holsters????


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## Plowboy (Apr 9, 2008)

fishguy1313 said:


> My god... you guys are stubborn mules... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ back holsters????


If you get the chance to get a shot off, why waste it? They're cheap and powerful. Plus im guessing you can handle a shotgun better than a handgun. It is, bar none, the most effective close distance weapon. And back holsters are awesome. I use one and a stubby nova on the snowmobile and 4 wheeler.

well used to. dont have a snowmobile or atv anymore


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

As for the "Rifle" idea... it would be pretty hard to pop a shot off with a rifle when the thing is already on your back.
Hell, I'd rather have a bigass knife on my side than a rifle if it came down to a mountain lion.
At least with the knife you have a chance...


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## Liquid (Aug 24, 2004)

fishguy1313 said:


> My god... you guys are stubborn mules... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ back holsters????


if you get a mountain lion on you're ass that snorts mace on his free time, you're gonna say to yourself f*ck I should have listened to those guys lol.

You're going "primitive camping" any way not to a fashion show, grab a sling so you can enjoy the trip ffs.


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## sandman503 (Feb 10, 2009)

a gun is a must when you do deep woods camping. theres a lake that me and my friends camp at thats a 1 hour 4x4 trail in, awesome trout fishing! anyways, one night we were fishing at opposite ends of the lake as out camp site and the sun started to go down on us but we couldnt stop we were slamming them, one after another. we decided to quit just before it went dark. on the hike back we heard something following us. turned our flash light to the noise and it was a mountian lion. my friend fired his gun in the air and it ran. after that i will never go camping with out a gun.

heres the lake


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## swack (May 29, 2007)

not to thread hijack. But I have been looking into a handgun for personal protection for my home. I'm looking for a good gun, however at a low price (sub 500). Any suggestions?


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

sandman503 said:


> a gun is a must when you do deep woods camping. theres a lake that me and my friends camp at thats a 1 hour 4x4 trail in, awesome trout fishing! anyways, one night we were fishing at opposite ends of the lake as out camp site and the sun started to go down on us but we couldnt stop we were slamming them, one after another. we decided to quit just before it went dark. on the hike back we heard something following us. turned our flash light to the noise and it was a mountian lion. my friend fired his gun in the air and it ran. after that i will never go camping with out a gun.
> 
> heres the lake


I never camp without some sort of firearm. unless you drive to a fruity public camp site and sit next to the other 30 campers then it's just bad judgment to not be able to protect yourself. humans are really low on the food chain w/out some sort of weapon strapped to them.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

swack said:


> not to thread hijack. But I have been looking into a handgun for personal protection for my home. I'm looking for a good gun, however at a low price (sub 500). Any suggestions?


Home defense=Shotty :laugh:


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## Liquid (Aug 24, 2004)

sandman503 said:


> a gun is a must when you do deep woods camping. theres a lake that me and my friends camp at thats a 1 hour 4x4 trail in, awesome trout fishing! anyways, one night we were fishing at opposite ends of the lake as out camp site and the sun started to go down on us but we couldnt stop we were slamming them, one after another. we decided to quit just before it went dark. on the hike back we heard something following us. turned our flash light to the noise and it was a mountian lion. my friend fired his gun in the air and it ran. after that i will never go camping with out a gun.
> 
> heres the lake


guy I used to know used to tell me about a trip up in canada he'd go on where he could only go so far in a vehicle and then he had to take a horse the rest of the way. They supplied the horses ect. Sounded very peaceful but I never got a number from him ><. I haven't been camping in a while, around me everyone goes rving at rv camps







. Think I'm gonna set something up this summer. I need to get away.


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## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

AKSkirmish said:


> guy I used to know used to tell me about a trip up in canada he'd go on where he could only go so far in a vehicle and then he had to take a horse the rest of the way. They supplied the horses ect. Sounded very peaceful but I never got a number from him ><. I haven't been camping in a while, around me everyone goes rving at rv camps
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never been to "around the corner and up my ass" so i dont know much about the camping... Did 3 great hiking trips last summer and planning a 10-14 day 40 mile backpack trip for this spring, we have 3 horses but im not really a fan of riding, but love not carrying a 60lb pack! Anybody who wants to join is always welcome... All this begins about 30 minutes from my front door









Guess we determined a .22 is not a good gun for defense, so i will post some pics
12 miles in to Big Lake, not another person for 20+ miles for the entire week...



















Blodgett canyon, we prob did 30 miles that weekend, got stuck in a nightmare rain and lightning storm... only time i thought i was going to die camping and it was from a lighting strike and fallen tree... AWESOME time other than that










Always lots of whiskey, good food and fishing!


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

agreed about 12ga pump. that sound is the universal symbol for run crackhead run


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## fishguy1313 (Feb 19, 2007)

Looked at a couple of guns yesterday. .38 special and a SXS .45/.410 handgun. Both around $150.00.


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## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

fishguy1313 said:


> Looked at a couple of guns yesterday. .38 special and a SXS .45/.410 handgun. Both around $150.00.


You should look for a pistol that can shoot .357 and .38 special like my smith and wesson... a .45 mag revolver beats your hands up pretty good which cuts into your shooting time


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

fishguy1313 said:


> Looked at a couple of guns yesterday. .38 special and a SXS .45/.410 handgun. Both around $150.00.


remember the riffled barrel on a 410 shell is good for 15feet+- the exceptions to this are buck, and slugs.


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## fishguy1313 (Feb 19, 2007)

06 C6 LS2 said:


> Looked at a couple of guns yesterday. .38 special and a SXS .45/.410 handgun. Both around $150.00.


remember the riffled barrel on a 410 shell is good for 15feet+- the exceptions to this are buck, and slugs.
[/quote]

That's all I need. Maybe I can do some road hunting with it too.


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## Plowboy (Apr 9, 2008)

It would be an awesome **** gun with the 410 shot!!!


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## KrBjostad (Jun 21, 2008)

mountain lions you shouldnt really worry about, there aren't many in the area. I've seen bobcats a few times in the ozarks though. They're a lot smaller, but if you wanted to shoot them you better either be a crackshot or just use a shotgun. They're fast little fukcers.


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## Steelrain (Apr 22, 2006)

I know it's long but it's A MUST READ, along with the rest of the articles from Chuck Hawks website.
Chuck Hawk's Handgun Information

Handguns for Protection in the Field

By Chuck Hawks

This article is about using a handgun for defense against large predators, principally bears and large cats. In the New World these would include the cougar and jaguar, and black, grizzly, brown, and polar bears. A wolf pack constitutes a somewhat different type of deadly threat. The individual animals are smaller but attack as a group, a very dangerous situation, indeed. All of these predators hunt deer and other (sometimes much larger) game that is the same approximate size as an adult human being. Being the same approximate size as the predators' usual prey is highly undesirable; the implication is that we are at risk when in proximity to these large predators.

So that we have a realistic appreciation of the size of these predators, I am going to use the figures developed by Edward A. Matunas and published in the 47th Edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook. These are the approximate live weight ranges of full grown males of the species: gray wolf, 75-170 pounds; cougar, 150-250 pounds; jaguar, 200-310 pounds; black bear, 300-650+ pounds; grizzly and brown bear, 700-1600+ pounds; polar bear, 900-1550 pounds.

A powerful rifle is superior to any handgun in killing power, of course, and is the only sensible choice for protection against large bears. But a rifle may not be very handy inside of a tent, or on a trout stream, or for a nature lover or mountain climber to carry on a strenuous hike. For outdoorsmen not engaged in hunting but never the less exposed to the threat of attack by large predators, a handgun is probably the only firearm that offers the requisite portability and leaves the hands free for other activities when not in use.

I know of no database on stopping large predators with a handgun. Such encounters are quite rare, and I doubt there have been enough of them documented since the development of the magnum revolver in 1935 to create a statistically valid database. This is a pity, for without such data we can only estimate, based on our own research and experience, which calibers and loads offer a realistic level of protection. Always assuming that the shooter is capable of doing his or her part, of course, by getting the bullet into an immediately incapacitating place.

Although infrequent, attacks on humans by large predators do happen, and they are increasing in number in North America due to continued human encroachment into wilderness areas, and unwise "endangered species" policies protecting potentially dangerous predators from sport hunting. After a generation or two of not being hunted these large predators lose their fear of man and revert to viewing our species as potential prey.

Because large predators have much tougher hide, muscles, and bone structure than human beings, it is generally felt that increased penetration is necessary compared to successful anti-personnel handgun loads. This favors bullets of robust construction and high sectional density (SD). In addition to powerful ammunition with plenty of penetration, a very reliable repeating handgun is clearly desirable, which eliminates all single shot pistols from consideration. The choices basically come down to an autoloading pistol chambered for some sort of magnum cartridge, of which there are very few, or a revolver chambered for a powerful magnum cartridge, of which there are many.

The most commonly available, reasonably portable, autoloader that might serve our purpose is the Glock Model G20, chambered for the 10mm Auto cartridge. The G-20 is as reliable as a powerful auto gets, and relatively compact. This pistol comes with a 4.6" barrel, is 7.59" in overall length, and weighs only 26.28 ounces. In recent years Glock has promoted the G20 as a hunting pistol. The EAA Witness DA autoloader is also offered in 10mm Auto, and the Colt Delta Elite version of the 1911 Government Model used to be. There are probably others of which I am unaware.

The potential problem is the 10mm Auto cartridge itself. Powerful for a true auto pistol cartridge, it is not particularly impressive when compared to the popular magnum revolver cartridges. The Federal 10mm factory load with a 180 grain high antimony lead bullet has an advertised muzzle velocity (MV) of 1030 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 425 ft. lbs. This load probably offers about the best penetration that can be had from a 10mm factory load, short of a 200 grain (SD .179) full metal jacketed bullet that offers no possibility of expansion at all. The sectional density of the 180 grain 10mm bullet is only .161, however. Hornady offers a 10mm factory load using their 200 grain jacketed hollow point XTP bullet (MV 1050 fps, ME 490 ft. lbs.). Hornady recommends this bullet for "medium game," which would presumably include wolf, cougar, jaguar and black bear but not grizzly, brown and polar bear.

There are a many makes and models of magnum revolvers in the marketplace chambered for powerful handgun cartridges. The reliability of any good revolver is unquestioned. Thus, my choice for protection in the field would be a magnum revolver with a 5.5" to 7.5" barrel. This barrel length is necessary to achieve the requisite ballistic performance from magnum cartridges. A revolver with a short barrel may be handy to carry, but a short barrel simply does not allow a magnum cartridge to reach its full potential. The three widely distributed magnum handgun cartridges are the .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, and .44 Magnum. Another possibility is the even more powerful .454 Casull, which has increased in availability in recent years.

Bullet selection for any of these should tend toward the heavy bullets for the caliber, to maximize sectional density and thus penetration. Jacketed Soft Point (JSP) or hard cast bullets are the usual choice. Federal, for example, advertises their CastCore (hard cast lead) bullets as, "excellent for back-country self-protection."

At very close range a full power .357 Magnum loaded with 158 grain (SD .177) to 180 grain (SD .202) bullets will probably suffice, since the target is the animal's central nervous system. Even one of the great bears can be stopped at close range if the shooter can deliver a .357 bullet to the brain. The biggest advantage of the .357 is that most shooters can shoot it more accurately than the bigger magnums. The brain or spinal cord of even a large bear (the biggest of the big predators) is still a very small mark, requiring precise shot placement.

Standard 158 grain .357 Magnum JSP factory loads such as the Remington Express call for a MV of 1235 fps and ME of 535 ft. lbs. More powerful 180 grain factory loads such as the Federal CastCore advertise a MV of 1250 fps and ME of 625 ft. lbs.

Better against large predators would be a .41 Magnum revolver using a 210 grain bullet (SD .178) in full power loads. The .41 is considerably more powerful than the .357, actually treading on the heels of the .44 Magnum. Of course, it also kicks almost as hard as a .44, and is almost as hard to control. But, for those who can master it, the .41 Magnum is a better choice than the .357 Magnum. The Remington 210 grain JSP Express factory load has a catalog MV of 1300 fps and ME of 788 ft. lbs.

The best choice, for the relatively few shooters who can actually shoot it with the required level of precision, is probably a full power .44 Magnum shooting a 240 grain (SD .185) to 300 grain (SD .232) bullet. The big .44 has proven that it can make an impression on even the largest predators. The Remington 240 grain JSP Express factory load drives its bullet at a MV of 1180 fps and ME of 721 ft. lbs. Even fiercer (at both ends) is the Federal 300 grain CastCore load, with a MV of 1250 fps and ME of 1040 ft. lbs.

The even more powerful .454 Casull has become popular with handgun hunters, but .454 revolvers are very large, even compared to standard .44 Magnum revolvers like the Ruger Super Blackhawk and S&W Model 629. The Freedom Arms Model 83 .454 is 14" long and weighs 50 ounces with a 7.5" barrel. The Winchester 300 grain JFP .454 Casull factory load claims a MV of 1625 fps and ME of 1759 ft. lbs. The SD of that bullet is .210.

The problem here is that very few outdoorsmen who are not dedicated handgun hunters are willing to carry an outsize .454 handgun. Similarly, very few shooters can control the recoil and muzzle blast of a .454. But for that tiny minority who don't mind the size, weight, muzzle blast, and recoil, the .454 is an excellent choice for protection against large predators.

In the same general class are the .480 Ruger and .500 S&W. Revolvers for these cartridges are often so large that in many cases one might as well carry (and would certainly be better served by) an ultra-lightweight rifle. The same could be said for the huge (and seldom seen) autoloading pistols such as the Desert Eagle and Widely, which can be had in calibers up to .50 AE. With 6" barrels the Widley weighs approximately 65 ounces and the Desert Eagle weighs 70.5 ounces!

Because I have received so many e-mails asking the question, I will go where wise men fear to tread and mention a couple of specific handguns. If I were buying a new gun for protection against large predators, I would get a Ruger Blackhawk revolver (6.5" barrel) in .357 or .41 Magnum, or a Ruger Super Blackhawk revolver (5.5" or 7.5" barrel) in .44 Magnum. The Blackhawk is 12.5" long and weighs 42 ounces; the Super Blackhawk is 11 3/8" long and weighs 46 ounces with a 5.5" barrel.

These are large pistols, but very durable and more compact and easier to shoot than most DA revolvers in these calibers. They come with excellent adjustable sights, are highly accurate, and are made right here in the U.S.A. They are also reasonably priced, an important consideration for folks who are not handgun hunters. Carried in a high cross-draw position on a wide gun belt, these guns are not too uncomfortable to tote in the field. Goodness knows, I have carried them a lot of miles in just that fashion.

Remember that bullet placement is absolutely crucial, so whatever handgun you choose for protection in the field, make sure that you can shoot it with great precision. You can't miss (or even score peripheral hits) fast enough to come out on top in a deadly encounter with a large predator!


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## Plowboy (Apr 9, 2008)

Its been so long since I looked up handgun energies that i forgot just hope pathetic they were.

My little 22-250 squirel/ pdog popper does over 1500 with 45g. If you want to roll a deer with a good head of steam on with that you better aim small. Deer only weigh 100-200lbs, which is possibly less than the cougar.

Instead of a handgun just carry a luck rabbits foot!


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## Liquid (Aug 24, 2004)

Steelrain said:


> I know it's long but it's A MUST READ, along with the rest of the articles from Chuck Hawks website.
> Chuck Hawk's Handgun Information
> 
> Handguns for Protection in the Field
> ...


Nice find. With the budget he's working with he's better off just bringing a shotgun, some buckshot and a survival knife. A tomahawk would be nice as well, actually very handy and I wouldn't go camping without one.


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