# Good or bad?



## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

is it good or bad to Breed Betta's from the same family?

cause ive thrown together a couple of the offspring from my 1st batch, and the male is building a nest.


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## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

maybe the first gen wont turn out bad but if they keep interbreeding your fish are gonna be fcuked.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

crazyklown89 said:


> maybe the first gen wont turn out bad but if they keep interbreeding your fish are gonna be fcuked.


 why?

why would inter breeding be bad for fish


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## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

Ok sweet lu go have sex with your mom a couple of times and find out why interbreeding is bad.

Fish or not interbreeding is bad for anything....maybe the fish will have a terrible immune system making it more susceptible to disease or maybe it's gonna be deformed, missing an eye or stunted growth or something.


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

weöö what about guppies? lol

they do it all the time


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## losts0ul916 (Nov 19, 2003)

That is the weirdest thing I've ever heard. My rooster use to alway "uh-huh" his mother and there kids came out fine. Whats to say fish can't do the same?


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

rooster?









i dont think i am reading this right

please explain so i get the right image if there is one


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## InIndiana (Nov 6, 2003)

I don't know the consequences of inter breeding with fish but sweet lu, if you breed with a person in your gene pool as a human, you will experience many deformities and/or mental retardation.. That is where notatus is coming from.. The fish might have an immune problem or they could possibly have genetic deformities.. More or likely, they will just be sterile.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

oh i get it now

thanks


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Within any species being propagated captively there is always some line-breeding(in-breeding if you will) to attain certain traits. Especially if you are working with a mendalian recesive such as amelanism, the first batch would produce heterozygous offspring so many times a breeder will breed the amel male back to het females that are his "daughters" so as to quickly obtain the recessive.
This happens with everything, dogs, cats, chickens, pigeons, fish, snakes, lizards, etc...

It is important to outbreed the lines to strengthen the genetic diversity.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

crazyklown89 said:


> maybe the first gen wont turn out bad but if they keep interbreeding your fish are gonna be fcuked.


 JDs and oscars and firemouths and convicts and virtually every fairly-common to very common fish specie at your lfs has been inbred for countless generations. In the cichlids' case this can be almost 100 years. What, did you think every JD ever sold has been caught fresh from the wild?


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## losts0ul916 (Nov 19, 2003)

WOW! It is true. You do learn something new on here everyday.


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## InIndiana (Nov 6, 2003)

are there any repercussions that are noticeable due to interbreeding not just with fish but with herps, and other mammals? and you said they are heterozygous so they have different pairs of genes on specific chromosomes.. Does this change and they become homozygous due to interbreeding? I might be getting confused with this concept sorry.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

losts0ul916 said:


> WOW! It is true. You do learn something new on here everyday.


 i think it is just today

i think when you breed snakes if you do it right then you wont have a problem. same with other animals

like have to separate batches

and then interbreed them so that they are different each time


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## InIndiana (Nov 6, 2003)

sweet lu said:


> losts0ul916 said:
> 
> 
> > WOW! It is true. You do learn something new on here everyday.
> ...


 that would still be interbreeding if you would breed the offspring of the first two snakes..


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

your right

crockeeper how do you breed other animals without interbreeding


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Oh damn where to begin....









Ok lets say you have a very specific and easy to trace recessive/dominant trait like amelanism.

Say you caught a wild male (whatever) that was amelanistic (lacking the pigment melanin; a type of albinism) and you wanted to pass that trait on. First obviously you would need a reproductively active female(or maybe 2 or 3 different females), and then you would commence breeding/spawning/amplexing attemps.

If you were successful the resulting progeny would be Heterozygous for amelanism, that is they would carry genes for amelanism, and normal pigmentation. Normal pigmentation in this case would be the dominant gene, and so the amelanism would be masked, so they would all look normal but be carrying that gene. If you selected any female off spring you would raise them up to suitable ages and re-breed the original male to them. The result in those litters would be predominately homozygous offspring for amelansm, however you would still produce some potential heterozygous offspring from this pairing. What if you had actually used three different females? Now you have the same father but three mothers to mix siblings between themselves, het to het couplings if you will, you chance normals as well as het/amels, and amels doing so, but you diversify the lineage rather quickly that way. After producing your first male amel offspring, get new females and start again, further diversifying the lines.
This is truly a large topic I can not adequately adress in just the simple post, and you have to be familiar with basic genetics or you are at this point lost.

Their are many factors that this applies to though, not just something as simple and clearly defined as a dominant/recessive trait. This applies to specific color patterns, and or size. It can apply to every single aspect controlled genetically.
I like to use pigeons and dogs as examples because when you say dog, some people just thought of a St. Bernard, some a chihuahua...they are both the same species, just radically different directions selective breeding produced after constant line breeding/outbreeding. There are specific traits that show up occasionally that we can not still adequately explain, as genetics is still a growing/changing science with discoveries leapfrogging past currently held viewpoints every day.

I hope I helped instead of hurt with that answer.....









After thought here, but obviously excellent record keeping is a must!
Document, document, document....


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## InIndiana (Nov 6, 2003)

Wow thanks for the info Croc. I am familiar with basic genetics but I couldn't grasp the concept that animals reproduced with interbreeding. Is there any chance of the progeny of 2 wild caught species that are an amelanistic could end up having traits of amelanism if they have recessive genes for that trait? Or is amelanism not a wild found trait and it is only a result of inter breeding?


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

It pops up on its own as a trait, even in the wild, which is where most amels in any species originate. It is just very rare to find them wild, as they are literally neon signs to predators saying "EAT HERE". That said it is entirely possible to be breeding to "normal" animals and find out by hatching some amels, that the parents were indeed heterozygous instead of homomzygous creatures. I had just that happen with some wild caught Monocelate cobras _Naja __kaouthia_. Which made me smile in very large ways as they were a new, unrelated amel source...


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

wow









and i thought i new something

off topic a bit

but do you evre sell one of those pie bald pythong

you know the ball pythong that are half albine and half regular pigment cause i have beensearching far and wide for one but i cant find them

that must have takin a long time to make


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Pie-bald individuals were originally caught and imported, it was eventually shown to be a simple dominant /recessive trait. Pie-bald is not a mix of albino/normal and is seen in a variety of animals, some naturally occurring like magpies _Pica __pica_. Some fancy pigeon breeds are bred for the same condition, such as the gazzi pattern morph of the Modena. 
In the Royal python _Python __regius_, aka the ball python, it was found as a wild specimen and imported from Africa to the US. Therefore, it didn't take so long to "create", it just took herpetoculture a while to realize that regius was a fairly easy species to breed. They can be found readily enough if you look for them, but Pie-bald individuals carry hefty price tags currently that no one in their right mind would pay( 5-10Keach). I have amel Ball pythons, and 1 male pie-bald, who is being readied for his first breeding season into some handpicked import females I have.


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## InIndiana (Nov 6, 2003)

About the Naja kaouthia specimens, you yourself discovered the amel ability in wild caught specimens? Have you documented this anywhere or what? Did you notice this in any other Elapinae related species or was it just the Naja kaouthia? DId you by chance keep record of the ratio of how many offspring will be amel with heterozygous parents? Just curious


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

That particulair clutch of eggs was 12 eggs, of the twelve, 11 hatched, of the eleven 8 were amelanistic individuals, which needless to say completely flipped my lid and pissed me off at first. Why pissed me off? Because I keep immaculate records, and pride myself on my safety protocol with all of my venomous taxa, and here were eggs hatched, from "normal" parents that were wild caught and inside were amels, so I thought one of my freinds had crossed a line in protocol and was playing a practical joke. Turned out to be nothing to be pissed about at all.hehe. They have produced four other clutches since then, and all have had amels, although none after have had such a high ratio of amels.

Amel animals are found all the time. It is really not as uncommon as most people think; it is just that again, wild amels get eaten before they are discovered most of the time.


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## InIndiana (Nov 6, 2003)

Well taken point. I knew albino species were easily preyed on and did not exceed a year or two in the wild without becoming prey. Was this your first venomous taxa which produced amel off spring with heterozygous wild caught parents? Either way, I'd be afraid to handle Naja kaouthia.. Something about neurotoxic venom kinda scares me ?


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

InIndiana said:


> Either way, I'd be afraid to handle Naja kaouthia.. Something about neurotoxic venom kinda scares me ?


 not me really

is there other species of albino snakes and animals

just not the easy to find python or boa but like cobras and even fish like whales (even though that is a mammal) can they be albino or are they to eaten before discovered


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Thank you for saving me all of that typing CrocKeeper!!!









Good stuff. I've actually seen some inbreeding in fish that seemed to have little effect after many generations. I've also seen the bad side. It's actually a complex issue.



> Within any species being propagated captively there is always some line-breeding(in-breeding if you will) to attain certain traits.


I've been trying to explain that to PoseidonX about the flowerhorns but I think he thinks they magically appear out of fortune cookies or something.:rasp:

This is definitely worthy of a move.....


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## InIndiana (Nov 6, 2003)

Hey acestro, could you possibly list a few complications due to inbreeding in fish ? I am very curious. No need to go in depth if you do not want to , just the genetic aspect of breeding appeals to me


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

In Indy...with inbreeding any animal compliactions can very and to attemp a comprehensive listing of potential flaws would be beyond the scope of this site...however:

Here is a link on its effects in cats...

http://bowen1.home.mindspring.com/mchs/articles/lorimer.htm

on taxa in general..

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...472d7a66c5e5589

In Orchids..
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...720d4ffc03d2eea

There is too much to list...


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## InIndiana (Nov 6, 2003)

Croc as I read in the article, they manipulate the genes to that they are almost identical in the same species.. Do you use this technique when you try to breed certain specimens for an exact duplication? *They must be kept in a nearly sterile environment, because their immune systems are not capable of fighting off a normal range of diseases* -taken from the article. Do these complications occur in all animals? *If both chromosomes of a cat or other animal have identical immune system gene segments, that animal has lost half of its potential antibody genes. If that animal is further inbred, it starts to lose other individual gene segments to a genetic phenomenon called "crossover." Each gene segment that is lost represents thousands of potential antibodies. * As i see it, in breeding can result in weak immune systems which in case means that they will not live very long...But as i read before, these weak immune system organisms are often weeded out in the first sessions of in breeding to the point that the species are identical genetically? correct me if i'm wrong


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

it is more complicated than that, but yes there is usually immediate fallout, lethal genes show up, and you weed out certain flaws initially, after select "line-breeding" however certain traits tend to show up in very similiar fashions, not identically; but earily similiar. This is what starts your "breed" of animal, say with dogs as an example, after crossing many breeds , and line breeding your offspring eventually say the typical form emergesI.e, the black saddle and muzzle in a german sheppherd (alsatian if you prefer). This is a very simplified answer to a rather complicated question........


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## InIndiana (Nov 6, 2003)

I see . Thank you for putting it into lay man's terms. Your help in this thread and increasing my knowledge in understanding in breeding is greatly appreciated


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Good stuff Crockeeper, Good questions InIndiana.

There is actually a lot of debate on the cheetah situation (articles between scientists battling back and forth). There is a question as to whether they are just bizarre (with their birth problems, immunocompatibility (they can take skin graphs from very different species, shouldn't happen, your immune system should reject skin grafted on you from a different animal), etc.). Science can be cool and aggrevating.

I have had a line of electric blue cichlids that are tough as nails. They've bred for at least 8 generations and are all from a single male and a single female. They've dealt with dirty tanks, cold temperatures, etc.

There are, however, some obvious cases of inbreeding problems (French royalty in the past, Mississippi today....) Just kidding, however I've done some field work in Mississippi and there are some scary things out there.

The French royalty is a classic example. Hemophilia is a condition of bleeding very very easily (I'm simplifying) and is usually rare (a recessive and rare gene). It wasn't rare in this family.

That's okay if they 'breed' with other people that don't have the gene (it gets 'masked'). But if they breed amongst themselves there's a whole lot of hemophiliacs!

Here's a good example with a couple of defects seen in Florida panthers. As noted, these defects are not characteristics of this population, they occur from inbreeding.

http://www.panther.state.fl.us/handbook/th...reedthreat.html

For fish there's a paper on survival (I think) and inbreeding effects with mosquitofish but I'll have to hunt that down...


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Here is the page (Dr. Kandl). It seems more inconclusive than I remember (it's about half way down the page). You can't say a specific level of inbreeding is bad and you can't say any level is the same for multiple species. Some species have evolved to deal with small populations. Also, some species formed because they were small 'break-offs' from populations. If this 'break-off' survives, it is a 'strain'(I guess you could say) that can deal well with inbreeding (maybe just because they all had 'good' genes).

To take this to another level (I know, I'm getting carried away), think of the evolutionary context. Meaning, how does this work in the long run?

Well, sh*t happens, things change (remember those guys the dinosaurs?). Dinosaurs were big, fast, probably warmblooded, many with efficient lungs like birds. Impossible to make better creatures. Well, better is a RELATIVE term. Again, things change (remember that asteroid that caused a huge crater in the Yucatan peninsula?).

So things change, 99% of species that ever lived are extinct. Why? It's hard to keep up with changes. How is this relevant to inbreeding?.....

If you have a small 'gene pool' you have a small amount of possible genes to deal with or choose from. Say one 'pool' has genes for 4 different eye colors but one has genes for only one.

Having the variety of genes sets you up for trouble ahead. As conditions change, you have more weapons, or genes, to choose from that may or may not work with the new living conditions. The dinos had nothing for the insanity of the asteroid, mammals did. This is chance, neither are 'superior', one just did better with the asteroid.

If you have less genes, you have less variety and less chance of dealing with any future strife (disease, predators, etc.)

Geez, I need to stop.


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Hahahaha, why stop?
Just kidding, it is a seriously great topic that can so quickly divert into soooo many directions, and be taken to soooo many levels. I must say that this type of thread is exactly what helps me unwind!!!









Interesting note on change and the seeming switch wiping out so many species, but notice very little change in crocodilians over the last 80 million or so years....cool beans , eh?


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## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

Great chat guys. I myself only have a remidial grasp of Punnet Squares and genetics but it is nice to know I can pick your brains if needed!


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

crazyklown89 said:


> Ok sweet lu go have sex with your mom a couple of times and find out why interbreeding is bad.
> 
> Fish or not interbreeding is bad for anything....maybe the fish will have a terrible immune system making it more susceptible to disease or maybe it's gonna be deformed, missing an eye or stunted growth or something.


 crazyklown89 this is uncalled for..pleease respect other members... if you have nothing good to say don't say it all...its not funny..


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Ah, yes, the little change in some species (some sharks, dragonflies, crocodilians) makes for excellent discussion!!!


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Very interesting discussion,

Being someone that actually has fish that are now completely extinct
in the wild,
I often think about this and try to find methods to reduce the amount of serious inbreeding.

In some cases such as with my pupfish I have just kept Four cultures
all are separate enough that I know crossing them every six generations should keep genetic diversity, These fish originally lived in a pool of water less than 26 feet wide and 4 feet deep, in the case of these fish concern over inbreeding is practically 
a non issue, The only issue I have is keeping them from naturally evolving into
a different strain!!!!! But that's a different story.

with another fish though, The Golden Skiffia, the story is very different,
These fish exist only because one individual just happened to have kept them,
all captive fish are descendents of this particular stock.

These fish are in the stages of very extreme inbreeding, through very brutal and selective culling they still remain, but their numbers are very very small,
almost all carry a lethal gene, this species is set for extinction despite our best efforts to keep it alive.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

That's a Mexican Goodeid, right? How did it become extinct?


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

The watershed that the Skiffia existed in became Bio-polluted,

someone came by and found these interesting colorfull goodieds,
did not have room for previously collected fish so they
Released a whole bunch of platys, 
the platy out compeated the goodieds and now they are gone from the wild
for good. None have been seen in the area for decades now.

Basicly someone released a fish where it did not belong resulting in the extinction of a whole species.

People wonder why I get pissy about fish laws and personal responsability
well here is one of many reasons


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

> Basicly someone released a fish where it did not belong resulting in the extinction of a whole species.


A strongly felt topic Poly, I also tend to harbor ill will towards the irresponsibility shown by releasing non-native taxa....a good topic for a seperate thread..


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I'm with you too, my current studies involve the introduced texas cichlid in New Orleans. Not only are these introductions bad, they're hard to track or understand.


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