# Judas' Betrayal



## Guest (Apr 7, 2006)

Article from Toronto Star.

Very interesting read, says that the translation of the Lost Testiment tells of Judas only helping Jesus.


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## oscared15 (Feb 3, 2006)

interesting :nod:


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2006)

I PMe'd Judazz and he said that's what he has been trying to tell you for the last 2000 years!!


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2006)

Its sad when people are more interested in "What celeb would you like to curbie the most" than this.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Its sad when people are more interested in "What celeb would you like to curbie the most" than this.


i agree but i find it more sad that some people put so much of there life into there faith and tehn when the truth is un raveled then what will happen to those people?

of course most of there faith requires quite a bit of denial of already existing facts but this is like another slap in the face..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

The book was written by a traitor who hung himself because of guilt. If Jesus told him to do so, why did he feel guilty, returned the 30 pieces of silver and hung himself?

The Gospel must be in harmony and agreement. The book of Judas contradicts the rest of the Bible and is not reliable. If the majority is in agreement except for one, who do you believe?

Judas was a thief and Jesus' favorite? Give me a break!

Jn:12:6: This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2006)

What else is there in life then faith? I dont mean sitting and worshipping someone all day, or constantly preaching about his greatness, I mean what we live for. And no, Im not some religious zealot, but at this point in my life, what else do I have to look for in life? All faith is meant to do, IMO, is to keep peoples hearts and minds from going stagnant with the "troubles" of everyday living. This article proves even Jesus questioned his life, something everyone should do. Its made me a better person because of it









Wow, that whole paragraph was just a complete buffet of my random spiritual thoughts







but you get the idea. the only problem with faith is how man tries to control it.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> The book was written by a traitor who hung himself because of guilt. If Jesus told him to do so, why did he feel guilty, returned the 30 pieces of silver and hung himself?
> 
> The Gospel must be in harmony and agreement. The book of Judas contradicts the rest of the Bible and is not reliable. If the majority is in agreement except for one, who do you believe?
> 
> ...


MY POINT EXACTLY..

deny deny deny becuase if you except then everything you base you belife on is a steaming load of crap....


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> This article proves even Jesus questioned his life, something everyone should do. Its made me a better person because of it


Jesus never questioned His life. I rather believe in the Bible than the article.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> The book was written by a traitor who hung himself because of guilt. If Jesus told him to do so, why did he feel guilty, returned the 30 pieces of silver and hung himself?
> 
> The Gospel must be in harmony and agreement. The book of Judas contradicts the rest of the Bible and is not reliable. If the majority is in agreement except for one, who do you believe?
> 
> ...


Who are you to judge which testiment is truth? The "Bible" is simply the written word of a man, and has been created in a way to control the thoughts of believers. There are many MANY testiments that have been oppressed and controlled by the Vatican, why? Who are we to say which is fact and fiction?

Jesus was an ordinary man with an extrordinary heart.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> The book was written by a traitor who hung himself because of guilt. If Jesus told him to do so, why did he feel guilty, returned the 30 pieces of silver and hung himself?
> 
> The Gospel must be in harmony and agreement. The book of Judas contradicts the rest of the Bible and is not reliable. If the majority is in agreement except for one, who do you believe?
> 
> ...


MY POINT EXACTLY..

deny deny deny becuase if you except then everything you base you belife on is a steaming load of crap....
[/quote]
Deny something that's false? What're you talking about?


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> The book was written by a traitor who hung himself because of guilt. If Jesus told him to do so, why did he feel guilty, returned the 30 pieces of silver and hung himself?
> 
> The Gospel must be in harmony and agreement. The book of Judas contradicts the rest of the Bible and is not reliable. If the majority is in agreement except for one, who do you believe?
> 
> ...


Who are you to judge which testiment is truth? The "Bible" is simply the written word of a man, and has been created in a way to control the thoughts of believers. There are many MANY testiments that have been oppressed and controlled by the Vatican, why? Who are we to say which is fact and fiction?

Jesus was an ordinary man with an extrordinary heart.
[/quote]
hey i think we can actually agree abotu something!!

this is what aggravates me about hardcore jesus freaks, they cannot accept fact about there religon and see the whole picture and the actual historical facts about there beloved bible and the truth about the religon.. it doesnt mean there is anyhting wrong with the belifes its just the denial of the truth and cult like following that is scary..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Who are you to judge which testiment is truth? The "Bible" is simply the written word of a man, and has been created in a way to control the thoughts of believers. There are many MANY testiments that have been oppressed and controlled by the Vatican, why? Who are we to say which is fact and fiction?


I've a free will to believe or reject what's before me. I've studied and that's how I can judge.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> The book was written by a traitor who hung himself because of guilt. If Jesus told him to do so, why did he feel guilty, returned the 30 pieces of silver and hung himself?
> 
> The Gospel must be in harmony and agreement. The book of Judas contradicts the rest of the Bible and is not reliable. If the majority is in agreement except for one, who do you believe?
> 
> ...


MY POINT EXACTLY..

deny deny deny becuase if you except then everything you base you belife on is a steaming load of crap....
[/quote]
Deny something that's false? What're you talking about?
[/quote]

whats fake? the fact that the bible is a very scewed one sided view of jesus compiled by the vatican to be used as a tool to manipulate people?

the fact that the vatican set out to systematicallydestroy all other gospels that didnt fit the desired vision of jesus and tehy killed those that wouldnt accept and convert?

whats more fake denying the truth, or putting all you faith in something as manipulated and devicive as the bible?

that would be like throwing hard evidence out of a court trial because you felt like it


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

King James rejected the Vatican bible and that's what I use, King James Bible, not Vatican. I'm tired of people comparing what I believe with the Vatican. I'm not Catholic and I don't care for them. Period.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Who are you to judge which testiment is truth? The "Bible" is simply the written word of a man, and has been created in a way to control the thoughts of believers. There are many MANY testiments that have been oppressed and controlled by the Vatican, why? Who are we to say which is fact and fiction?


I've a free will to believe or reject what's before me. I've studied and that's how I can judge.
[/quote]

more like you have the ability to disregard anyhting that does not fit your vision of false reality wether its fact or not? that is just rediculous... wake up and accept reality..


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> King James rejected the Vatican bible and that's what I use, King James Bible, not Vatican. I'm tired of people comparing what I believe with the Vatican. I'm not Catholic and I don't care for them. Period.


What are the differences? I am honestly interested.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> more like you have the ability to disregard anyhting that does not fit your vision of false reality wether its fact or not? that is just rediculous... wake up and accept reality..


It's called studying and comparing. Have you read what I've posted earlier? Why would Judas hung himself if he was asked by Jesus to betray him? Why would Jesus trust a thief and have him as His best friend? You should wake up and start studying the Bible to see what's true or false.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> more like you have the ability to disregard anyhting that does not fit your vision of false reality wether its fact or not? that is just rediculous... wake up and accept reality..


It's called studying and comparing. Have you read what I've posted earlier? Why would Judas hung himself if he was asked by Jesus to betray him? Why would Jesus trust a thief and have him as His best friend? You should wake up and start studying the Bible to see what's true or false.
[/quote]

what story in history doesnt have contradicting points of view, and who bases all of there faith in one point of view with out giving proper consideration to other possibilities.. ?

why because these are books written by men almost two thousand years ago and tehn rewritten to fit the bibles requirements.. so you saying the gospels in the bible are the only ones that should eb accepted as truth because you ahve studied them but this one shoudl not be accepted becasue you havent studied it? honestly the fact that it was hidden and not accepted as part of the bible givesw me even more reason to belive, the fact that it presents a differnt point of view gives me more reason to belive.. the fact it has been carbon dated to the correct time period and written in language from teh time period give me more reason to listen to the other point of view.. what story doesnt have more then one point of view? why should the life of jesus have a piont of view that doesnt agree 100 percent with the bible? it not like everyone knew how to write back in those days so who ever did write this gosple had some form of education and skill.. another reason to not jsut deny it..


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> more like you have the ability to disregard anyhting that does not fit your vision of false reality wether its fact or not? that is just rediculous... wake up and accept reality..


It's called studying and comparing. Have you read what I've posted earlier? Why would Judas hung himself if he was asked by Jesus to betray him? Why would Jesus trust a thief and have him as His best friend? You should wake up and start studying the Bible to see what's true or false.
[/quote]

What in your studying and comparing makes your answers any more logical and reasonable then what nismo thinks tho? These are events which happened 2000 years ago.Why is one recollection more "reliable" (see your first post) then any of the others?

Also, why does it matter if Judas was a theif?



> John 8:15
> Ye judge after the flesh; judge no man.
> 
> John 12:47
> And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.


Clearly Jesus doesnt judge men?

Wait a second...



> John 5:22
> For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.
> 
> John 5:26-27
> ...


Clearly these arent reliable and in agreement, as you posted earlier.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

It's rejecting a false documents after reviewing and comparing its contents to documents of the same period. NOT DENIAL! Say whatever you will, I've no more to say.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

my interest in religon and understanding is not a faith oreinted study its more historical and factual then faith.. far more viable then mixing belife, assumption, emotion and interpertaion into fact....



rchan11 said:


> It's rejecting a false documents after reviewing and comparing its contents to documents of the same period. NOT DENIAL! Say whatever you will, I've no more to say.


how can you say there false?

just becase it contradicts your belife and what has been fed to people for over a thousand years does not make it false..

if these documents where hidden for soo long it is clear that a good reason is that it threatens to contradict what so many have been pressured to belive, how can peopel belive something if there is a document which cast doubt on those belifes? how can you feel good about your self if you simply deny what could be a revelation in your belifes..

it doesnt make jesus a fraud it changes your perspective of him and it should.. he was just a man and no better then any other man to ever walk the earth. is it so dificult to accept that he may have done something that contradict what the churchs would want you to belive?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Danny Boy...here's what Jesus said about Judas.

Mk:14:21: The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

His best friend? It does matter if Judas was a thief because he was controlled by Satan.

Jn:13:27: And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Being a thief has nothing to do with judgement as you've quoted.

Mt:7:16: Ye shall know them by their fruits.

I'm a fruit inspector.



nismo driver said:


> just becase it contradicts your belife and what has been fed to people for over a thousand years does not make it false..


It contracts the Bible, not my believe.

All you people have doubted the Bible as long as I've known you and now there's a new document out and YOU believe in it. You will find whatever excuse you can to deny the truth. According to you, the Bible is false but the book of Judas is true since it contracts the Bible.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> Danny Boy...here's what Jesus said about Judas.
> 
> Mk:14:21: The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
> 
> ...


I dont understand the relevancy of this post? If anything, does it not further show the contradictions of the Bible, and of your post about the Testiment of Judas being "unreliable"?


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> just becase it contradicts your belife and what has been fed to people for over a thousand years does not make it false..


It contracts the Bible, not my believe.

All you people have doubted the Bible as long as I've known you and now there's a new document out and YOU believe in it. You will find whatever excuse you can to deny the truth. According to you, the Bible is false but the book of Judas is true since it contracts the Bible.
[/quote]

its not a matter of doubting the bible or beliving in the gospel iof judas its the fact that followers of teh bible put all of there fiath into it and cast boudt onto this other gospel because of there belife in the bible not becuase of any ability to accept fact..

its all historical record, and yes some of it might contradict each other but the fact is that every recording of history has some contradiction that doesnt mean yo can jsut throw it out because it doesnt fit you cookie cutter image of jesus..


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2006)

> It contracts the Bible, not my believe.
> 
> All you people have doubted the Bible as long as I've known you and now there's a new document out and YOU believe in it. You will find whatever excuse you can to deny the truth. According to you, the Bible is false but the book of Judas is true since it contracts the Bible.


Not true, I believe in Jesus, I believe that he was an amazing man, but I do not believe he was anymore the son of God as you and I. The Bible...the story of Judas...these are simply stories for us to learn from, lessons...but not factual. The only factual things in life are the things you see everyday...because after they pass, they are simply what you perceived them to be. You see your religion as the one and only truth, I see all religions as a story being told in different languages.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> > It contracts the Bible, not my believe.
> >
> > All you people have doubted the Bible as long as I've known you and now there's a new document out and YOU believe in it. You will find whatever excuse you can to deny the truth. According to you, the Bible is false but the book of Judas is true since it contracts the Bible.
> 
> ...


its more of a belife spirituality then conformity of one true religon.. its ok to accept or atleast consider things other then bible and it doesnt maek anyone any less of a good person to do so..

interesting site

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/alphabetical.html


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

um....


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

interesting find. without actually being at the same place and time that jesus was it's impossible to know what's true and what's false. it's all speculation based on texts that have survived the ages. there are lots of things in the bible that contradict each other because well, it was not all written by the same person.

sure, this piece of papyrus is 1700 years old. but that doesn't make it any more factual than the other books of the bible. that's what i think both sides of the fence aren't able to grasp (not pointing fingers at anyone in specific, just generalizing). on one side, you have the religious people who refuse to accept anything other than the bible as something that may be viable information. on the other hand, you have the people that jump on any new information as "fact" that the bible is false.

i could write a book now about how bush was a righteous man who liberate iraq to better their country and free their people from the grips of tyranny. at the same time i my friend could write a book on how bush was the tyrant whose greed overtook him and led him to kill civillians and other innocents. in 2000 years, who will believe which story?


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2006)

acestro said:


> um....


Thanks









Im interested..and a little afraid...of what Dippy is going to type up for us when he reads this. Im not trying to offend or attack Christians with this btw.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> um....


Thanks









Im interested..and a little afraid...of what Dippy is going to type up for us when he reads this. Im not trying to offend or attack Christians with this btw.
[/quote]

You're welcome (you left yourself open for it). I actually was a religion major briefly and once had much interest in this. However..... history and what's fact or not has ZERO effect on faith in my mind. But it's so personal and impossible to keep objective that it becomes a tiresome discussion. Intellectual masturbation in my opinion...

So, since this board is one of opinions, I repeat...


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

(in my opinion)


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## SLANTED (Dec 7, 2003)

Faith is the substanciation of the hidden and divine facts. It is not the subjective, interpersonal, " I take it this way" view that so many have. I am not here to argue or to try to prove anyone wrong but to be faithful to say something. It is a fact that the Divine revelation is complete in the Bible and it is a serious thing to add or detract anything from the Word of God. Whether or not you believe in gravity, if you jump off of a building you will fall. In the same way, right now this may be just a mindless discussion on a website, but a day will come when all of us will stand before the Lord and given an account of our life. At that time, there will be no aetheists or agnostics and no one will be able to say that they were not able in their life to recieve the Lord into them as their Savior and Life. If I could personally speak with each one of you and beg you to receive the Lord I would. I only hope that at least some of you would take this little message to heart. I would rather offend you now and lose my face and for you to receive the Lord, than to be politically correct and see you suffer in the next age. The Lord died for everyone here and desires that each one of you recieve Him as their Savior and Life. I would ask all who reads this to not respond so quickly and dismiss this but to really consider your life and how you feel inside. That empty feeling and need inside of you is proof enough.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

> It is not the subjective, interpersonal, " I take it this way" view that so many have


.... in your opinion...


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

i heard that this book was written way after then it should have been and therefore is not authentic. It may be real old....but not the book everybody thinks it is


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2006)

SLANTED said:


> i heard that this book was written way after then it should have been and therefore is not authentic. It may be real old....but not the book everybody thinks it is


Source? Or anything?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

diddye said:


> i heard that this book was written way after then it should have been and therefore is not authentic. It may be real old....but not the book everybody thinks it is


However some people believe it was written with divine intervention. I, however, agree with you on this. I think the flawed views and biases of man might have tainted things, ESPECIALLY around 400 A.D. when Augustine fucked everything up in the name of power (now you guys are going to get me posting serious again







).


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2006)

acestro said:


> i heard that this book was written way after then it should have been and therefore is not authentic. It may be real old....but not the book everybody thinks it is


However some people believe it was written with divine intervention. I, however, agree with you on this. I think the flawed views and biases of man might have tainted things, ESPECIALLY around 400 A.D. when Augustine fucked everything up in the name of power (now you guys are going to get me posting serious again







).
[/quote]

Oh wait :laugh: He meant the Bible, my bad diddye


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

How many people do you know like this...


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> i heard that this book was written way after then it should have been and therefore is not authentic. It may be real old....but not the book everybody thinks it is


However some people believe it was written with divine intervention. I, however, agree with you on this. I think the flawed views and biases of man might have tainted things, ESPECIALLY around 400 A.D. when Augustine fucked everything up in the name of power (now you guys are going to get me posting serious again







).
[/quote]

Oh wait :laugh: He meant the Bible, my bad diddye








[/quote]

Actually, i was talking about the "book of judas"...so you can take your apology back haha. Theres different views about this b/c if you compare the catholic bible and a protestant bible...they're different in the way that some of the chapters are omitted from the protestants. I'm too tired to talk more about this....so if anybody wants to pick this up go ahead.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> This article proves even Jesus questioned his life, something everyone should do. Its made me a better person because of it


Jesus never questioned His life. I rather believe in the Bible than the article.
[/quote]

I wish ppl who doubt the Bible so much would at least study a bit of archaeology on Biblical artifacts, and findings that prove lots of history of what the Bible says, before they try and mock it.

Not to mention the incredible amounts of fulfilled prophecy. What an incredible study that is.

The book was written over a time period of 1,800 years, by over 40 men who could not have possibly known each other, except for a few. 
People just like to make reasons not to believe. Nothing new, it has been going on for a very long time.

That is all for me in this thread. If you want to flame me, save it, and just do a serious study of what I mentioned above, with no bias. I can not reveal to anyone Biblical truth. That is the Holy Spirit's job. He revealed it to me, He can do it for you.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

I believe people would know my opinion on the article so why even post on it ?











DiPpY eGgS said:


> This article proves even Jesus questioned his life, something everyone should do. Its made me a better person because of it


Jesus never questioned His life. I rather believe in the Bible than the article.
[/quote]

I wish ppl who doubt the Bible so much would at least study a bit of archaeology on Biblical artifacts, and findings that prove lots of history of what the Bible says, before they try and mock it.

*Not to mention the incredible amounts of fulfilled prophecy. What an incredible study that is*.

The book was written over a time period of 1,800 years, by over 40 men who could not have possibly known each other, except for a few. 
People just like to make reasons not to believe. Nothing new, it has been going on for a very long time.

That is all for me in this thread. If you want to flame me, save it, and just do a serious study of what I mentioned above, with no bias. I can not reveal to anyone Biblical truth. That is the Holy Spirit's job. He revealed it to me, He can do it for you.
[/quote]

I will have to agree on that. I am not religious at _all_, many people here know that. Nobody can deny that some prophecy has been fullfilled either by means of human desire for it (self fulfilling), or by a God.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> um....


Thanks









Im interested..and a little afraid...of what Dippy is going to type up for us when he reads this. Im not trying to offend or attack Christians with this btw.
[/quote]
afraid of me.. lol

no need. Vengance is mine says the *Lord* not me LOL







LOL


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2006)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> This article proves even Jesus questioned his life, something everyone should do. Its made me a better person because of it


Jesus never questioned His life. I rather believe in the Bible than the article.
[/quote]

I wish ppl who doubt the Bible so much would at least study a bit of archaeology on Biblical artifacts, and findings that prove lots of history of what the Bible says, before they try and mock it.

Not to mention the incredible amounts of fulfilled prophecy. What an incredible study that is.

The book was written over a time period of 1,800 years, by over 40 men who could not have possibly known each other, except for a few. 
People just like to make reasons not to believe. Nothing new, it has been going on for a very long time.

That is all for me in this thread. If you want to flame me, save it, and just do a serious study of what I mentioned above, with no bias. I can not reveal to anyone Biblical truth. That is the Holy Spirit's job. He revealed it to me, He can do it for you.
[/quote]

So why not accept any other text written during this time period? And why oppess so many other scripture written during this period?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> So why not accept any other text written during this time period? And why oppess so many other scripture written during this period?


The book of Judas and other text written during this period was found in Egypt, a pagan country where the Gospel was not carried to during that period. It's the oldest on record due to the dry weather, preserving the text better. None of what discovered in that region was in harmony with rest of the text found in the regions of Aegean Sea to Meditterranean Sea. Texts in that area are not as old due to the costal humidity thus degrading the papyrus. Older is not always better, depends of where it was found. None of the disciples went to Egypt, how did it get there?


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> um....


Thanks









Im interested..and a little afraid...of what Dippy is going to type up for us when he reads this. Im not trying to offend or attack Christians with this btw.
[/quote]
afraid of me.. lol

no need. Vengance is mine says the *Lord* not me LOL







LOL
[/quote]

Well I wasnt in th mood to read a novel tonight







Just playin mate.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

As I've mentioned earlier, the Gospel was never spread into that part of the region. No ancient church was ever established in Egypt. And those manuscripts contradict those found where churches were established.
Satan is a liar and deceiver.

2Cor:11:14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Mt:24:4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mt:24:5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mt:24:11: And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> As I've mentioned earlier, the Gospel was never spread into that part of the region. No ancient church was ever established in Egypt. And those manuscripts contradict those found where churches were established.
> Satan is a liar and deceiver.
> 
> 2Cor:11:14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
> ...


Really? Its not the only thing which contradicts the Bible...the Bible contradicts the Bible!!!

God good to all, or just a few?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:

MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Which first--beasts or man?

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

The number of beasts in the ark

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

How many stalls and horsemen?

KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

Is it folly to be wise or not?

PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

Human vs. ghostly impregnation

ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

The sins of the father

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.


----------



## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

User said:


> As I've mentioned earlier, the Gospel was never spread into that part of the region. No ancient church was ever established in Egypt. And those manuscripts contradict those found where churches were established.
> Satan is a liar and deceiver.
> 
> 2Cor:11:14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
> ...


Really? Its not the only thing which contradicts the Bible...the Bible contradicts the Bible!!!

God good to all, or just a few?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:

MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Which first--beasts or man?

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

The number of beasts in the ark

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

How many stalls and horsemen?

KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

Is it folly to be wise or not?

PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

Human vs. ghostly impregnation

ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

The sins of the father

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.








[/quote]
Did you read the part where it says that the word of God is hidden from non believers?


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## Uncle Rico (Sep 4, 2005)

Even if that book is genuine, (which many believe is fake), that just means that it is actually written by Judas (which I seriously doubt). If it was written by him this would lead a person with any degree of intelligence to look at it with a suspicous eye, I do not consider these Christians religious freaks. Though I do believe that some religious fanatics pick and choose things that are in accord with their beliefs, I do not believe that is the case here. To believe that the writings of authors of that time must either all be true, or otherwise all be false is just extremely ignorant.


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## SLANTED (Dec 7, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> As I've mentioned earlier, the Gospel was never spread into that part of the region. No ancient church was ever established in Egypt. And those manuscripts contradict those found where churches were established.
> Satan is a liar and deceiver.
> 
> 2Cor:11:14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
> ...


Really? Its not the only thing which contradicts the Bible...the Bible contradicts the Bible!!!

God good to all, or just a few?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:

MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Which first--beasts or man?

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

The number of beasts in the ark

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

How many stalls and horsemen?

KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

Is it folly to be wise or not?

PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

Human vs. ghostly impregnation

ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

The sins of the father

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.









[/quote]

I felt I just had to comment on this lest people get the wrong idea. And by saying this I mean not to direct it at you personally but to help you and anyone else. There are many so-called 
"contradictions" in the bible. What you have is really only a working list. I could write a many page response to each one of your examples but I won't and I'll tell you why. Firstly the revelation in the Word of God is one of multi-angles and multi-facets. Just like a diamond and if not viewed upon and considered with all the angels, it is easy to be led astray. This is why it is so important that one not merely the read the bible like he would be reading an ordinary book. There is a place in man, revealed in the bible and verified by human experience, called the human spirit. This is the part created by God to contain Christ as life. It is from your regenerated spirit that you are to read and know the bible. The bible is not a book of facts, but the life. For one to come to the bible with an unrenewed mind and a deadened spirit is like a blind man trying to understand colors. In short, impossible. For example, your example of "Is Jesus equal to or lesser than" is just a description of one who does not understand the dual nature of Jesus. The Lord Jesus is the Son of God in the God Head, for eternity to eternity; yet He became a man to die for our sins. He was one who was God yet man, a God-man. As a man he could shed blood for our sins but as God His blood had the eternal efficacy to redeem all men. In his standing as a man, he was obedient and submissive to the Father and to die the death of the cross. But as God He is one with the Father. Our God is a Triune God, the one yet three God. For example the verses you quoted in Genesis are indications of the threeness of God. Did you know the very first verse of the bible indicate the God is triune? The Father, Son, and Spirit are essentially one but economically three. A mystery of mysteries. Yet it is by this that the Son is always One with the Father essentially, yet economically He became a man. It was not merely the Son becoming a man but the entire Triune God working to bring divinity into humanity. This is clear in the gospels, especially the case in Matthew where Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist. So you see, the bible is not a shallow book where one can simply make a sweeping accusation. And each one of your questions do not have a simple answer but a deep, significant answer. What I wrote above really is only a footnote of what I should write for that one question. The bible is an amazing book and is truly the word of God. Again, I am not writing this to start an argument because it is clear that many are here simply to voice their intention of an argument. I have found that no profit ever comes from an argument. All that I have written are not my opinion, my " take on things" but the divine facts in the Word of God. Whether or not you believe that is not a question of if but when. If in this life, in the next you will understand and I pray for each one of you that you seek the Lord in this life. Someone asked why Christians always feel the need to tell people about the Lord or "push their religion on them." It is out of love for you that they do so to save you from eternal punishment. One day many will regret not listening to such "nuisances."


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Slanted,

Thank you for the excellent response! I was going to answer DannyBoy's "contradictions" point by point but got tired last night and went to bed. It's a blessing to see you and Dippy here to uphold the truth.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

> Did you read the part where it says that the word of God is hidden from non believers?












I'm sorry, I studied the bible plenty and this kind of stuff is so obtuse and ridiculous in my opinion.
I dont want to offend so I wont get into it, but the bible to me is essentially part faith, part history, and part story telling. People divide those parts in different ways and that's where all of the mess comes from. No one should take such ancient text too seriously, I'm sorry.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

acestro said:


> > Did you read the part where it says that the word of God is hidden from non believers?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know, and every true believer knows the Bible is what it claims to be not from our intellect, or because someone told us so.
It comes from the witnessing of the Holy Spirit to our spirits. It is something flesh and blood can not reveal in the least.
I completely understand that it is not real to you. That is absolutely 100% correct from a Biblical perspective too. You haven't accepted Christ yet.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> > Did you read the part where it says that the word of God is hidden from non believers?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know, and every true believer knows the Bible is what it claims to be not from our intellect, or because someone told us so.
It comes from the witnessing of the Holy Spirit to our spirits. It is something flesh and blood can not reveal in the least.
I completely understand that it is not real to you. That is absolutely 100% correct from a Biblical perspective too. You haven't accepted Christ yet.
[/quote]

Actually Dippyeggs, repectfully, you have no clue what I've accepted. I do know that I'm not brainwashed and that I dont take the entire bible literally (which is almost impossible to do anyways). Maybe you'd like to rethink your assumptions or narrow perspective.

I think you might want to see if you can star in this play:


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> I wish ppl who doubt the Bible so much would at least study a bit of archaeology on Biblical artifacts, and findings that prove lots of history of what the Bible says, before they try and mock it.
> 
> Not to mention the incredible amounts of fulfilled prophecy. What an incredible study that is.
> 
> ...


Excellent post Dippy...Excellent...I could not agree more...


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

acestro said:


> I think you might want to see if you can star in this play:


You think you know my heart?

I am not holier than thou.. LOL -I am actually a filthy wretch, in my own eyes. Holier than you? Not in the least.

Thanks Pastor Jeff!


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> I think you might want to see if you can star in this play:


You think you know my heart?

I am not holier than thou.. LOL -I am actually a filthy wretch, in my own eyes. Holier than you? Not in the least.

Thanks Pastor Jeff!
[/quote]

You thought you knew my heart first, and.....


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2006)

The replies in here are not suprising, why do the religious only back up thier points with "you do not know God aswell as me, you will never understand"? One testiment is called fake, while others are just as unreliable and yet excepted because they glorify Christ.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> The replies in here are not suprising, why do the religious only back up thier points with "you do not know God aswell as me, you will never understand"? One testiment is called fake, while others are just as unreliable and yet excepted because they glorify Christ.


Hey DannyBoy...

I am at church right now getting ready to give a test in my Bible Instruction Class (that I teach) but I am going to make an effort to answer some questions regarding this new text. From what I have read of the new "Judazzz (hehe!) Text" it fits in what we believe, and in other ways it does not fit in line with what we believe. I will try to explain more later.

One thing to remember (I am not lecturing here, just making a statement)...when it comes to faith, I am not going to be able to explain it all. I just can't...because it is faith. I can explain (hopefully well) the why's and connections to science as best I can. But when it all boils down, I cannot explain my faith. It is mine...and it is faith.

But other than that...post a question and we will try to answer it (as best I can...and that ain't going to say much)

Talk to you later everyone! It is test time!


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

hyphen said:


> interesting find. without actually being at the same place and time that jesus was it's impossible to know what's true and what's false. it's all speculation based on texts that have survived the ages. there are lots of things in the bible that contradict each other because well, it was not all written by the same person.
> 
> sure, this piece of papyrus is 1700 years old. but that doesn't make it any more factual than the other books of the bible. that's what i think both sides of the fence aren't able to grasp (not pointing fingers at anyone in specific, just generalizing). * on one side, you have the religious people who refuse to accept anything other than the bible as something that may be viable information. on the other hand, you have the people that jump on any new information as "fact" that the bible is false.*
> 
> i could write a book now about how bush was a righteous man who liberate iraq to better their country and free their people from the grips of tyranny. at the same time i my friend could write a book on how bush was the tyrant whose greed overtook him and led him to kill civillians and other innocents. in 2000 years, who will believe which story?


you hit the nail dead on with that one.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I think what Danny means is all of the different faiths take 'this' and not 'that' but still claim the literal text of the bible is infallible. There's a lot of 'have your cake and eat it too". I see faith as using the bible as a tool that (without a doubt) IS fallible but is also full of powerful words of faith.

Organized religion seems to often compartmentalize people and sets up the 'you just dont know' and the 'your are wrong, I am right' which is soooo tiresome. I think both you an Dippyeggs are cool members, so please dont think me disrespectful. I've always been a student of religion myself, just not in the same way as you guys.

Good quote of hyphen by Exodus.

Which makes me think of something else. As far as what we see, VICTORS WRITE THE HISTORY BOOKS. Again, enter Augustine. A powerful and manipulative man who changed the bible. Not exactly a saint as he is viewed to be, but he is a victor who changed that book.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

acestro said:


> Organized religion seems to often compartmentalize people and sets up the 'you just dont know' and the 'your are wrong, I am right' which is soooo tiresome. I think both you an Dippyeggs are cool members, so please dont think me disrespectful. I've always been a student of religion myself, just not in the same way as you guys.


No disrespect taken...I agree with you!

That is one of the problems when it comes down to scripture interpretation. I believe that the word of God (scripture) is accurate in everything that is speaks about. I believe that it is infallible and should be taken literally. But one has to understand WHAT is to be taken literally and WHAT is not taken literally.

For example...people take the book of Proverbs and try to say "See we should take this literally", when that is NOT what the writer was intending the reader to do. So if you are taking something literally that was not to be taken literally you create a problem in your interpretation.

It says in Proverbs "Raise up a child in the way they should go, and when they are older they will not part from it". People claim that as a PROMISE and that it should be taken literally as such. But this is NOT the case...obviously. The reader took the intent and manipulated it to something that was to be taken literally.

Now in the account of creation...that was written to be taken literally. I do believe that creation was done in the way that the Bible says. Can I prove this to you? Nope...that is where faith comes in. The debate between creation and evolution is an entire different thread.









Hope this makes sense.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2006)

Heres a quote from the book "Walk On: Spiritual Journey of U2"-

I have his hunger in me....everywhere I look, I see evidence of the Creator. But I dont see it as religion, which has cut my people in two. I dont see Jesus Christ as being any part of a religion. . Religion to me is almost like when God leaves-and people devise a set of rules to fill the space."

I love that quote









BTW, why is Jesus always pictured as white, when he was actually born in the Middle East?


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

just an fyi: history channel is having a show tonight on 'judas' gospel'.


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## Slim (Jan 9, 2005)

nismo driver said:


> Its sad when people are more interested in "What celeb would you like to curbie the most" than this.


i agree but i find it more sad that some people put so much of there life into there faith and tehn when the truth is un raveled then what will happen to those people?

of course most of there faith requires quite a bit of denial of already existing facts but this is like another slap in the face..
[/quote]

Yes but is it the truth? Do you know? Do I know? I dont think we do do we. But go ahead tell people that they believe something that is wrong when we dont even know what is right or wrong. Maybe there was a reason it wasnt put in the bible? Maybe it was a false reading. Maybe it wasnt, Ill tell you something though none of us here at P-Fury have the answers except NISMO I guess.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2006)

"The height of arrogance is the height of control of those who create God in thier own image"


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> The book was written by a traitor who hung himself because of guilt. If Jesus told him to do so, why did he feel guilty, returned the 30 pieces of silver and hung himself?
> 
> *The Gospel must be in harmony and agreement. The book of Judas contradicts the rest of the Bible and is not reliable. If the majority is in agreement except for one, who do you believe*?
> 
> ...


 First of all, there are a number of Early Christain texts that both parallel and contradict the four Gospels, as is demonstrated by Nismo's posted link to heretical texts. So it's not just one text that jives with the established cannon. The Gospel of Thomas is a clear example of such.
Second, John's gospel is clearly in contradiction to much of the first three. There is no talk of Jesus coming from a Jewish family, but rather that his existence preexisted Creation itself. He stands apart from the Jews in that Gospel and immediately places himself above all that came before him. So there is clearly contradiction within the text itself.
Third, many of the "heretical" texts" come from Gnostic sects that had a serious problem with the contradictions between the Old Testament God of war and the loving God found presented in the life and teachings of Jesus (The Book of Revelation actually rehashes much of the Old Testament wrath). For Gnostics, the Old Testament God, who oftentimes orders the Hebrews to slaughter entire villages and does his own share of wanton smiting, was actually the Devil himself; and Jesus came to ransom people, through esoteric knowledge, from this demiurge of darkness. Such beliefs are just as spiritually valid as any other. 
I'm sick and tired of the fundamentalist approach to the texts. Experience on a daily basis matters much more than some perverted fear of eternal damnation, which is exactly what the radical Muslims do to brainwash their adherents. A true spiritual walk will tell us what text of any religion that should bear relevance for us.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

PastorJeff said:


> Organized religion seems to often compartmentalize people and sets up the 'you just dont know' and the 'your are wrong, I am right' which is soooo tiresome. I think both you an Dippyeggs are cool members, so please dont think me disrespectful. I've always been a student of religion myself, just not in the same way as you guys.


No disrespect taken...I agree with you!

That is one of the problems when it comes down to scripture interpretation. I believe that the word of God (scripture) is accurate in everything that is speaks about. I believe that it is infallible and should be taken literally. But one has to understand WHAT is to be taken literally and WHAT is not taken literally.

For example...people take the book of Proverbs and try to say "See we should take this literally", when that is NOT what the writer was intending the reader to do. So if you are taking something literally that was not to be taken literally you create a problem in your interpretation.

It says in Proverbs "Raise up a child in the way they should go, and when they are older they will not part from it". People claim that as a PROMISE and that it should be taken literally as such. But this is NOT the case...obviously. The reader took the intent and manipulated it to something that was to be taken literally.

Now in the account of creation...that was written to be taken literally. I do believe that creation was done in the way that the Bible says. Can I prove this to you? Nope...that is where faith comes in. The debate between creation and evolution is an entire different thread.









Hope this makes sense.
[/quote]

Very good post, except you are tempting me with the creationism topic. I dont see how creationism is crucial to one's faith. I can see why many people believe it is but there is too much evidence against it and, seriously, how does that evidence harm one's relationship with God?

"Butt I dont see it as religion, which has cut my people in two."

I'm guessing you meant but (with one t ) Dannyboy. It was hard to read seriously with "butt", but then I still act like a child


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2006)

acestro said:


> Organized religion seems to often compartmentalize people and sets up the 'you just dont know' and the 'your are wrong, I am right' which is soooo tiresome. I think both you an Dippyeggs are cool members, so please dont think me disrespectful. I've always been a student of religion myself, just not in the same way as you guys.


No disrespect taken...I agree with you!

That is one of the problems when it comes down to scripture interpretation. I believe that the word of God (scripture) is accurate in everything that is speaks about. I believe that it is infallible and should be taken literally. But one has to understand WHAT is to be taken literally and WHAT is not taken literally.

For example...people take the book of Proverbs and try to say "See we should take this literally", when that is NOT what the writer was intending the reader to do. So if you are taking something literally that was not to be taken literally you create a problem in your interpretation.

It says in Proverbs "Raise up a child in the way they should go, and when they are older they will not part from it". People claim that as a PROMISE and that it should be taken literally as such. But this is NOT the case...obviously. The reader took the intent and manipulated it to something that was to be taken literally.

Now in the account of creation...that was written to be taken literally. I do believe that creation was done in the way that the Bible says. Can I prove this to you? Nope...that is where faith comes in. The debate between creation and evolution is an entire different thread.









Hope this makes sense.
[/quote]

Very good post, except you are tempting me with the creationism topic. I dont see how creationism is crucial to one's faith. I can see why many people believe it is but there is too much evidence against it and, seriously, how does that evidence harm one's relationship with God?

"Butt I dont see it as religion, which has cut my people in two."

I'm guessing you meant but (with one t ) Dannyboy. It was hard to read seriously with "butt", but then I still act like a child








[/quote]

Fixed it


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

PastorJeff said:


> Organized religion seems to often compartmentalize people and sets up the 'you just dont know' and the 'your are wrong, I am right' which is soooo tiresome. I think both you an Dippyeggs are cool members, so please dont think me disrespectful. I've always been a student of religion myself, just not in the same way as you guys.


No disrespect taken...I agree with you!

That is one of the problems when it comes down to scripture interpretation. *I believe that the word of God (scripture) is accurate in everything that is speaks about. I believe that it is infallible and should be taken literally. But one has to understand WHAT is to be taken literally and WHAT is not taken literally.*
For example...people take the book of Proverbs and try to say "See we should take this literally", when that is NOT what the writer was intending the reader to do. So if you are taking something literally that was not to be taken literally you create a problem in your interpretation.

It says in Proverbs "Raise up a child in the way they should go, and when they are older they will not part from it". People claim that as a PROMISE and that it should be taken literally as such. But this is NOT the case...obviously. The reader took the intent and manipulated it to something that was to be taken literally.

Now in the account of creation...that was written to be taken literally. I do believe that creation was done in the way that the Bible says. Can I prove this to you? Nope...that is where faith comes in. The debate between creation and evolution is an entire different thread.









Hope this makes sense.
[/quote]

So when God tells the Hebrews in Joshua 6 to utterly destroy everything in Jericho - men, women, children, innocent animals - but to take valuables as booty, we should take this literally that God condones and encourages this sort of violence that we so abhor when it comes from a Muslim text. This is not to stir up trouble, but merely to use common sense in attributing a sacred character to all of the scriptures. I totally believe that much *is* divinely inspired, but clearly not all.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

acestro said:


> Very good post, except you are tempting me with the creationism topic. I dont see how creationism is crucial to one's faith. I can see why many people believe it is but there is too much evidence against it and, seriously, how does that evidence harm one's relationship with God?


It is only important to people like myself that claim the bible is the inspired word of God, accurate in everything that it speaks about, and is without error.

Did you ever play the game Jenga? The one with the blocks that you stack three to a level? If you pull the wrong one, the whole thing comes crashing down? That is exactly what theology is like. Your theology has to match up, or your belief will come crashing down just like the game.

Does my stance on creationism have anything to do with salvation? No it does not. BUT...if I am going to say that creation account is *NOT* accurate and without error, then where do I draw the line on that thought to determine what is truth and what is made up? Then it makes you ask...

*"Was Jesus the Son of God?"

"Did Jesus really die on the cross, or was He pulled down in time to have his life saved?"

"If Jesus did die, did he really raise from the dead?"*

If you say no to any one of the three questions I put above, then you immediately are tearing at the foundation of the faith and what most Christians believe...all because I am willing to doubt one part of the Bible.

Either one has to believe in it all...or you put yourself in a position to doubt and call any of it a lie. So that is where the belief or doubt in creation becomes so important.

I hope that makes sense? I guess what I am trying to say is that your theology has to match or someone can come along and knock down your Jenga game. For people like myself, I am not willing to just believe the easy parts. That would make me a coward (in my book...not calling anyone a coward). I stand by the easy parts to believe (the ones that can be proven by history and science) and I stand by the parts that seem crazy to believe (that a man would actually die and then be brought back to life - Jesus).

One could call me a brainwashed idiot, but one cannot call me an inconsistant coward.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Fargo said:


> Heres a quote from the book "Walk On: Spiritual Journey of U2"-
> 
> I have his hunger in me....everywhere I look, I see evidence of the Creator. But I dont see it as religion, which has cut my people in two. I dont see Jesus Christ as being any part of a religion. . Religion to me is almost like when God leaves-and people devise a set of rules to fill the space."
> 
> ...


Much better! And a good point. Jesus is pictured as white to appeal to the masses that were ruled by Christianity in Europe. Another 'construct' of organized religion.

Not to reduce everything to biology, but you can look at organized religion (not religion) as an organism. Whatever it takes for it to succeed and grow, it will do. Missionaries, white Jesus, rules that keep people in line and faithful (to the church, not God persay), etc. all help the organized religion spread. Connection with government also works like a symbiotic relationship. Faith, on the other hand, can exist independent of government, organized religion, and literal interpretations of ancient text. That's my opinion.

whoah, megapost... sorry bout that.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Fargo said:


> I'm sick and tired of the fundamentalist approach to the texts. Experience on a daily basis matters much more than some perverted fear of eternal damnation, which is exactly what the radical Muslims do to brainwash their adherents. A true spiritual walk will tell us what text of any religion that should bear relevance for us.


I'm a Fundamental Baptist and it's not the fear of damnation that's keeping me from sinning. 
Romans 8:1 -"There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

It's the love for Christ that's keeping me to do anything that'll displease Him, not fear.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> I'm sick and tired of the fundamentalist approach to the texts. Experience on a daily basis matters much more than some perverted fear of eternal damnation, which is exactly what the radical Muslims do to brainwash their adherents. A true spiritual walk will tell us what text of any religion that should bear relevance for us.


I'm a Fundamental Baptist and it's not the fear of damnation that's keeping me from sinning. 
Romans 8:1 -"There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

It's the love for Christ that's keeping me to do anything that'll displease Him, not fear.
[/quote]

that and an ample dose of brainwashing.. no offense but you are a jesus extremist..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

I do my best to benefit mankind. I've helped and given to the poor and needly. If you call that extremist, I'm proud to be one.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

that's hard not to take offense to, I'd say

'Jesus' extremists are far from the worst people out there. There's not a lot of bad things Jesus said.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> I'm sick and tired of the fundamentalist approach to the texts. Experience on a daily basis matters much more than some perverted fear of eternal damnation, which is exactly what the radical Muslims do to brainwash their adherents. A true spiritual walk will tell us what text of any religion that should bear relevance for us.


I'm a Fundamental Baptist and it's not the fear of damnation that's keeping me from sinning. 
Romans 8:1 -"There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

It's the love for Christ that's keeping me to do anything that'll displease Him, not fear.
[/quote]

And I believe in that verse of Romans, as well as the verse in John that "the prince of this world stands condemned." Yet I truly believe that Christ is so merciful that he will come to the most rebellious and contemptable of men and uplift them. But a fundamentalist approach is highly questionable on the grounds that most Jews, for example, would therefore be condemned, even allowing for the 144,000 in Revelation. Also, as I stated earlier, how can one justify Yahweh's violence in the historical books of the Old Testament? If not for any other reason, this sick and twisted view of God's wrath may very well have inspired the coming of Jesus, that is, to set the record straight.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Fargo said:


> And I believe in that verse of Romans, as well as the verse in John that "the prince of this world stands condemned." Yet I truly believe that Christ is so merciful that he will come to the most rebellious and contemptable of men and uplift them. But a fundamentalist approach is highly questionable on the grounds that most Jews, for example, would therefore be condemned, even allowing for the 144,000 in Revelation. Also, as I stated earlier, how can one justify Yahweh's violence in the historical books of the Old Testament? If not for any other reason, this sick and twisted view of God's wrath may very well have inspired the coming of Jesus, that is, to set the record straight.


John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The fundamental believe is "whosoever believeth in him should not perish", not a select few.

In the Old Testament, people were under the law, Christ has fulfilled the OT law and we are now under grace in New Testament.

Luke 6:27-28 "But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you."

Romans12:14 "Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not."

Matthew 5:38 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:"

That's what I go by. Why do people quote part of the Bible and take it out of context and justify their hate for Christians? Christians=Christlike


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

Ok here's my two cents coming from I cant remember how many years of Roman Catholic religious education classes, extensive research on my own interest and watching the National Geographic Channel's piece on the Gospel of Judas last night.

First of all to address Rchan11... you stated earlier that no gospel had traveled to Egypt. The document under scrutiny is not an original gospel, but a translation to the Egyptian language used at that time. During these times only a couple hundred years after Jesus' death, MANY forms of Christianity had developed because of over 30 gospel's and their accounts of Jesus' life. Christianity had spread throughout the Middle East, Egypt and Greece. The document discovered was an Egyptian transcription of the Gospel of Judas (one of those 30 gospels) for Christians there.

I do beleive that the Gospel of Judas is very real, and that is was written by Judas before he hung himself. This is easily conceivable since the gospel has no account of Jesus' death, it in fact stops immeditely after the betrayal. Im not going to explain the content of the entire Gospel because Im sure at this point the text is available for anyone interested to read and decide for themselves.

I do beleive that Jesus died on the cross, and that he was in fact the son of God. However, I do not beleive that it happened under the same circumstances that the 4 gospels (Matthew Mark Luke and John) tell. In fact these gospels are among the most recent written, and not one was itslef written by Matthew Mark Luke or John respectively. These documents had no names on their text, but the names were added as word of mouth as to who the gospel belonged to. That in mind, among the other 30 gospels written there are 2 in particular that were written in the days immediately before or after Jesus' death, the Gospel of Thomas and The Gospel of Judas (amongst others). It boggles my mind that these two documents have been disregarded by the Christian faith has frauds and heracy, when they in fact are the most significant gospels in my opinion. The Gospel of St. Thomas is beleived by many, including myself, to be the actual words of Jesus Christ. The problem with these 2 amazing documents is that they contradict the very foundations of modern Christianity, and as this thread so perfectly demonstrates, that scares and brings out aggression and disbelief from devout Christians. Imagine if Judas really was the greatest apostle and the one who truely understood Jesus, what if Jesus' words in the Gospel of St. Thomas were accepted...everything Christians have studied for the past 1800 years would be wrong and disproved. Of coarse that would shake u Christians and the Catholic Church.

I feel that by completely disregarding the most reliable accounts of Jesus' life for that of Matthew Mark Luke and John, gospels written hundreds of years after the crucifiction, is blindness and braiwashed madness. I chose not to beleive in the Bible and the stories of those Jesus beleived to be the Apostles who did not understand him or his teachings, and instead to beleive in the direct words of Jesus and the man he felt truely understood his message. The fact that the Gospel's of St. Thomas and Judas convey such a parallel message leads to me too much to be ignored.

Sorry for the length but its a topic that requires some extensive text IMO.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2006)

rchan11 and PastorJeff, I challenge you to watch *"What the BLEEP do we know!?"*. It has a lot of interesting thoughts on quantum mechanics and quantum physics. I watched it last night and may watch it again tonight.

BTW, its not some New Age wackos talking about spirits, its a group of professors and people with PH.D's attempting to explain how our mind controls our reality.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

The 4 Gospels were not written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John lived with Jesus. They were written within 70yrs after.

According to the book of Judas, Jesus asked Judas to betray Him which is in contradiction to the rest of the 4 Gospels.

Luke 22:3-6 - Satan enters and affects Judas before the Last Supper

John 13:27 - Satan enters and affects Judas during the supper

John 12:This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Matthew 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.

Matthew 27:12 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Judas was Jesus' best friend?

Here's what Jesus said about Judas.

Mark 14:21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

John 17:While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

maybe thats the whole point that jesus wanted to be not betryed but made into a myrter, to strengthen his lessons..

but of course chrisians wouldnt want to teach myrterdom so they choose to use the 4 gospels taht dont support that version of the story..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> rchan11 and PastorJeff, I challenge you to watch *"What the BLEEP do we know!?"*. It has a lot of interesting thoughts on quantum mechanics and quantum physics. I watched it last night and may watch it again tonight.


I do have a book on "Statistical Mathmathics" and it did a calculation on probability of the universe creating itself under the theory of evolution. The probability according to the principles of statistics was something like 10 to the 1 trillionth power. It takes alot more faith to believe in evolution than a Creator.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2006)

This movie has nothing to do with Creationalism and Evolution...but by the way, what are the odds on Creationalism, from an unbaised P.O.V? Zero? Considering there is no evidence of it.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> maybe thats the whole point that jesus wanted to be not betryed but made into a myrter, to strengthen his lessons..
> 
> but of course chrisians wouldnt want to teach myrterdom so they choose to use the 4 gospels taht dont support that version of the story..


Have you consider it's because the 4 Gospels is true and the book of Judas is false? Not just the 4 Gospels, but the other 62 books of the Bible are in harmony.

Why would I put my trust in a traitor who committed suicide?

Whould you believe in a con man? It's common sense.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2006)

But wait...isnt it Jesus' job to judge, and not you?

And what about the Gnostic Bible?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> But wait...isnt it Jesus' job to judge, and not you?
> 
> And what about the Gnostic Bible?


You're right, I'm not judging, just merely quoting what Jesus said in the Bible.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the Gnostic bible. I'll try to do some research on it.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> I like that quote also. I don't believe in religon also and neither did Jesus. It's a personal relation with God.


this is what scares me about people who to there fiath to cult like extremes to actualyl think or belive they comunicat or have a relationship with god or that god helps them make decisions or give tehm stength to deal with difficult things..

its like an accepted type of pychosys.. crazy people hear voices, but religous people talk to god? its all just crazy to me, if you hear voices or think god talks to you, you really need some help..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> this is what scares me about people who to there fiath to cult like extremes to actualyl think or belive they comunicat or have a relationship with god or that god helps them make decisions or give tehm stength to deal with difficult things..
> 
> its like an accepted type of pychosys.. crazy people hear voices, but religous people talk to god? its all just crazy to me, if you hear voices or think god talks to you, you really need some help..


I've been brainwashed to do good and to love others. What's wrong with that?

I used to live in NJ and have family there still. When I go back for a visit, I'd like to take you out for lunch and show you I'm just a normal guy.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Rchan11,
Nice posts. Here is just a few verses of prophecy for those of you who give we Christians a hard time..lol.... Coincidence? -Afraid not







Lots of fulfilled prophecy in the Bible--it is filled with it.

Matthew 10:22- 'And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.'

Matthew 24:9- 'Then shall they deliver you up, to be afflicted,and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake'

John 15:18- 'If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.'

John 15:24- 'If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.'

John 17:14- 'I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.'


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Thank you for your support brother!


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Mat 18:7- Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2006)

Woe is people who think quoting the Bible makes thier points more valid


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

and woe is me


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Ya, this is what I mean.. but if you go very deep into this subject.. it gets QUITE compelling. I don't know how much you have studied it, but some of the stuff is simply not able to be predicted by a man. --That is my honest opinion about that


Having said, I continue...

While some prophecy may have been fullfilled in some way, that doesn't qualify credibility. Many men in history has predicted events, Nostradamus is an example. But his riddles were so loose and wordy that two different people could read one riddle, get two different interpretations, and present two different opinions on if that riddle or "prophecy" has came true.

The Cognitive bias that christians show to the modern bible is astounding. Many plain oblivious to the bibles history of cut and paste and translation misconceptions. Many bible readers simply argue from ignorance on bible books. Many are simply unaware of the recycled stories and prophecies contained within the bible, its extremly common.

And yes I have studied religions, and have yet to find one that isn't logically foul and inconstant with modern knowledge and evidence.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

okay....

*Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:*

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn't receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don't believe in him. Jude 5

*Ignorance is bliss. Christians should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians:*

Don't associate with non-Christians. Don't receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

*Judge other religions for not following Christ:*

Whoever denies "that Jesus is the Christ" is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are "of God;" everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is "a deceiver and an anti-Christ" 2 John 1:7

Anyone who doesn't share Paul's beliefs has "an evil heart." Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of "the synagogue of Satan." Revelations 2:9, 3:9

Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

YOU'VE GOT TO LOVE THIS ONE:

A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

that's it, acestro. you've closed the case. time to lock up the thread


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

hyphen said:


> that's it, acestro. you've closed the case. time to lock up the thread


Thanks. And there's more where that came from.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

acestro,

You're quoting the scripture out of context. All those verses are talking about the spirital man. As Christians, we are commaned to "love thy enemies". Of all those youv'e quoted, not one suggest to harm anyone because they are non-believers. We're to hate their sin, not the person. Judgement will be done by God at the end time.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Out of context? Are you serious? Everyone who quotes the bible is quoting it out of context!

This is yet another clear example of taking "this" and leaving "that" when one interprets the bible.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

User said:


> Ya, this is what I mean.. but if you go very deep into this subject.. it gets QUITE compelling. I don't know how much you have studied it, but some of the stuff is simply not able to be predicted by a man. --That is my honest opinion about that


And yes I have studied religions, and have yet to find one that isn't logically foul and inconstant with modern knowledge and evidence.
[/quote]

What is the evidence that the Bible is logically foul? Would you bring that evidence here, without a bias of your own? 
That would be an interesting conversation.

What do you think of the verses that clearly indicate that God reveals His word to those who seek Him with all of their hearts, and hides it from those whom do not? 
-Have you tried this, honestly, or have you studied religion for other reasons than seeking after God?



> okay....
> You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20


A very brief, simple, and incomplete description of what was going on there..

God was bringing His people out of the bondage of Egypt, which represents sin in the Bible. 
The Hebrews agreed to follow the 10 commandments in the desert, in which they could never truly do.
(study them, every one of them are all but impossible for men to obey completely, especially how Jesus Christ revealed them to mean)

After 40 years of God wandering them in the wilderness to purify them, He led them to their promised land, (God told them to cleanse ONLY the promised land) and commanded them to do that to cleanse the land of God's enemies, so they did not spiritually adulterate...they did not listen to God on this...



> Don't receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10


That is talking about false teachers.. not non Christians


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

I see what acestro is saying...take this, leave that


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17


That is not in the Bible. Romans 16:17 reads: 'Keep your eye on those who cause dissentions and hinderances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them'
Again, this is a warning against false bretheren, and how to spot them. (people were comming into the church even back then who were not true believers, to disrupt it)



> The non-Christian is "a deceiver and an anti-Christ" 2 John 1:7


2John 1:7 reads: many decievers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deciever and the antichrist.

bro, these scriptures are for the *church's purity.* All of these verses you have mentioned are about stopping a false message from infiltrating the pure teaching of the Apostles about Christ. There were people trying directly to stop the true teaching of Christ... that battle is still raging, isn't it? Hmmm?

These men loved Christ, and saw His resurrected glory. There were false teachers popping up all over the place, and this was a method they used to stop them.
And it is quite good, I must say. A spirit filled believer is a pretty peculiar creature to the world









Can you use the direct word of God next time? These 'scriptures' are mangled


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

Hey Dippy...

"Many Christians find comfort on Sunday mornings in the Bible verse that says where two or three are gathered in Jesus' name, He is there with them. (Matt 18:20). For some reason, they prefer that verse over the one that says the prisoner and the tramp in the street is Jesus too. When it comes to which place Jesus would prefer to be met, you have to wonder. Would He rather see His kingdom come by His followers praying for His kingdom to come, or by them putting their faith into action?"

From "Walk On"


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> I see what acestro is saying...take this, leave that


I agree Danny (this must be a first...







). I still want to hear an opinion by one of the devout Christians here (I say devout because I consider myself a Christian, just not a blind or brainwashed one), as to why the four gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John are immediately considered true and must be part of the bible, whereas other gospels like the Gospel of Thomas and Judas are immediately condemned as false? In my research the only reason I have found for this ignorance and megligence is that because a bishop many years ago decided all the others were heracy because "there are 4 directions on a compus, 4 directions the wind blows, and 4 corners of the earth [obviously hadnt figured out the earth was round yet], and therefore there can only be 4 gospels." If thats the best reason that can be given to completely ignore the existance of all these more reliable accounts of Jesus' life, then typical Christians are more ignorant in there beliefs then I had ever imagined.

I beleive every gospel has its place, but I beleive that Jesus' had a very different view on God and what Christianity should be then what is practiced today. I beleive that it was originally intended for people to live a good, honest life. It wasnt about hatred of other religions, about going to Church, about reading some silly book, or about following some set of rules. I think through careful selection people have turned Christianity into these things, and made it COMPLETELY different from its intent. I believe in God, Jesus and everything else. i dont beleive in the bible because I think its a man made manufactured account of Jesus that destroys what Jesus intended for his message to be. I think this all holds true from readings of other gospels not used. Many of these other gospels are in harmony with one another, but their parallel contents DESTROY the idea of an organized religion with churches and priests, and something like that being accepted is way to scary for "Christians" to consider. I think Jesus would laugh at the idea of a priest, someone considered holier or more in touch with God, and thats terrifying for you "real" Christians, isn't it.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

You know, it makes me wonder why Christians feel the need to be so glorious in material things...we had two churches where I used to live, in a population of 30,000. Combined, the churches cost a few million dolalrs. Now, if social justice and compassion are corner stones of Christianity, why not build a more ecnonomical place to pray, and use the money to help those who need it?


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

BTW guys no disrespect intended, just adding my opinion.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> the prisoner and the tramp in the street is Jesus too


can you give a chapter and verse for that?



DannyBoy17 said:


> You know, it makes me wonder why Christians feel the need to be so glorious in material things...we had two churches where I used to live, in a population of 30,000. Combined, the churches cost a few million dolalrs. Now, if social justice and compassion are corner stones of Christianity, why not build a more ecnonomical place to pray, and use the money to help those who need it?


I agree with you whole heartedly on this Danny. But Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of the church


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> You know, it makes me wonder why Christians feel the need to be so glorious in material things...we had two churches where I used to live, in a population of 30,000. Combined, the churches cost a few million dolalrs. Now, if social justice and compassion are corner stones of Christianity, why not build a more ecnonomical place to pray, and use the money to help those who need it?


I agree with you whole heartedly on this Danny.
[/quote]

OMG (goodness







)! Theres a first









As for the verse, I dont know, I simply quoted it from an awesome book Im reading. The person who is being quoted tho is Steve Stockman, a preist.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> why the four gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John are immediately considered true and must be part of the bible


They were consistent teachings of Christ. there were many false gospels out, that were not written by any apostle, with one of their names on them



> I believe in God, Jesus and everything else. i dont beleive in the bible because I think its a man made manufactured account of Jesus that destroys what Jesus intended for his message to be


Where did you get the 'true' meaning of anything about Jesus Christ then?


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> > why the four gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John are immediately considered true and must be part of the bible
> 
> 
> They were consistent teachings of Christ. there were many false gospels out, that were not written by any apostle, with one of their names on them
> ...


But there were no names on the gospels of Mathew Mark Luke or John either. Their names were simply added as the most likely author of that gospel. The gospel of Judas has his name specifically attached to it.

Well Im not one to say I know the true meaning of Jesus' teachings, who is? I am simply writing my opinion which I have come to beleive by reading other gospels (specifically the Gospel of St. Thomas) and from other study and research like Sunday school when younger etc.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> I think Jesus would laugh at the idea of a priest, someone considered holier or more in touch with God, and thats terrifying for you "real" Christians, isn't it.


Priest, if I am not mistaken, means 'to come into' or to come into the presence of' or something similar.. someone can correct me there..

That being the case, then every believer is a 'priest.' This makes every believer on the same level playing ground..



ESPMike said:


> You know, it makes me wonder why Christians feel the need to be so glorious in material things...we had two churches where I used to live, in a population of 30,000. Combined, the churches cost a few million dolalrs. Now, if social justice and compassion are corner stones of Christianity, why not build a more ecnonomical place to pray, and use the money to help those who need it?


I agree with you whole heartedly on this Danny.
[/quote]

OMG (goodness







)! Theres a first :laugh:

As for the verse, I dont know, I simply quoted it from an awesome book Im reading. The person who is being quoted tho is Steve Stockman, a preist.
[/quote]Again, another mangled scripture... Get one that is real, and we'll talk LOL



> Well Im not one to say I know the true meaning of Jesus' teachings, who is? I am simply writing my opinion which I have come to beleive by reading other gospels (specifically the Gospel of St. Thomas) and from other study and research like Sunday school when younger etc


The gospel of Thomas was totally inconsistent with the apostles teachings.. that ends that quickly.. they wrote about those false teachers in the epistles
And we have gotten our information about the faith through the scriptures. (the Holy Bible)


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

Dips, you take everything so literal







There is room for one's perception in faith...


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

So if the Bible is so flawed, then how about any history? We are so quick to believe anything, and all that is written, except that which is written about a Holy God, and His redemption of His rebellious creation, ..man.



DannyBoy17 said:


> Dips, you take everything so literal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what in the world are you talking about? lol you just say things that make no sence, no offence lol


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Dips, you take everything so literal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what in the world are you talking about? lol you just say things that make no sence, no offence lol
[/quote]

I mean that what Stockman was saying may not be in the Bible word for word, but it doesnt mean it isnt in the Bible.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Joh 3:19 -And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

This scripture gives me peace when someone's heart gets even more hardened to the gospel of Christ when I, or someone else shares it.



DannyBoy17 said:


> Dips, you take everything so literal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what in the world are you talking about? lol you just say things that make no sence, no offence lol
[/quote]

I mean that what Stockman was saying may not be in the Bible word for word, but it doesnt mean it isnt in the Bible.








[/quote]
pfff... huh? please Danny, be specific or something. lol


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

Well, this has turned into an anti-Christian debate, which I did not inted, but I must say...I question those who call themselves complete believers in faith and devout followers of The Holy Long Haired Man, when there are children dying around the world and people starving, while they drive their Tahoe's and Jags to million dollar churches wearing clothes which cost more than feeding a child for a year, and praying to someone who they believe is more worthy of love then your average human, after denouncing anyone who doesnt believe exactly what they believe...followed by coffee and social gatherings...A lot of people preach, but I see very few practice


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Well, this has turned into an anti-Christian debate, which I did not inted, but I must say...I question those who call themselves complete believers in faith and devout followers of The Holy Long Haired Man, when there are children dying around the world and people starving, while they drive their Tahoe's and Jags to million dollar churches wearing clothes which cost more than feeding a child for a year, and praying to someone who they believe is more worthy of love then your average human, after denouncing anyone who doesnt believe exactly what they believe...followed by coffee and social gatherings...A lot of people preach, but I see very few practice


I agree Danny. I feel people are more focused on memorizing scriptures they dont fully understand and having social events as a religion. People dont really accept what I think was intended to be taught. Not that going to Church or reading a book is important, but living a full, good life that isnt slefish or prejudiced.

I apoligize if my posts have been offensive or anti-Christian. Like I said before that wasnt my intent. I was simply trying to include my view on Christianity and my support that the gospel of Judas as a Christian teaching that shouldnt be ignored but incorporated. I think people tryo to make Jesus' teaching a bit too simple, too cut and dry. They are much more personal ideals and beleifs then concrete rules, and thats what is skewed.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> I see what acestro is saying...take this, leave that


It's pervasive.







And it is impossible to argue against or discuss with, but to each their own. Man cannot help but be _subjective_, even with written text.



> People dont really accept what I think was intended to be taught. Not that going to Church or reading a book is important, but living a full, good life that isnt slefish or prejudiced.


Well said. The confusion is the flaw of 'organized' religion which is designed to create followers and a social construct (that works well to ensure it's power and survival... again, like an organism). There are plenty of good Christians who dont worry about this and live good lives. Who is to say that they aren't the holiest people on Earth? Some random quote in a 2000 year old book? I think not.

To avert the anti-Christian aspect I'd encourage people to study Coptic Christianity which deals with Christianity before it's perversion (again, around 400 A.D., "Saint" Augustine). This will never be settled but at least you can assume Coptics to be closer to the truth, because their perspective is derived from a line that is older than the perversion that led to the "holy" Roman Empire, the Spanish Inquisition, etc...

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to post some more fat ugly chick pics in another thread...


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Again and again I've stated, I'm not Catholic and those who have done contrary to the teachings of Jesus are not Christians, even if they claim to be one. True Chrstians have done more good to today's society and everyone is still anti-christian. Christian organizations-Salvation Army, Red Cross, Feed the Children Ministry, Rescue Missions, Baptist Men's Relieve Org., Faith International and the modern day hospital system was created by Christians. This great country was found by Christians. My little country church (located in a trailer park) have helped countless of less fortunately families. According to you all, we're nothing but a bunch of wicked people.

When Jesus was on the cross, He asked God to forgive them for they know not what they do. That's true Christianity.

Go ahead and mock on! Be sure to know that when you're in need, we'll be the 1st one there to help and will do it glady.









Rom:12:21: Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


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## Killduv (Jun 1, 2004)

Good find Danny!!!
Great reading makes you really think.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> *Again and again I've stated, I'm not Catholic and those who have done contrary to the teachings of Jesus are not Christians, even if they claim to be one. True Chrstians have done more good to today's society* and everyone is still anti-christian. Christian organizations-Salvation Army, Red Cross, Feed the Children Ministry, Rescue Missions, Baptist Men's Relieve Org., Faith International and the modern day hospital system was created by Christians. This great country was found by Christians. My little country church (located in a trailer park) have helped countless of less fortunately families. According to you all, we're nothing but a bunch of wicked people.
> 
> When Jesus was on the cross, He asked God to forgive them for they know not what they do. That's true Christianity.
> 
> ...


you mean like voting for bush because that i can tell you has done hella good to todays society..

i appreciate the offer for lunch but will most likely pass.. im not saying your not a good person your probably a nicer guy then me, i laugh at people who suck at life, you probably pray for them but i cant go through life feeling sorry for everyone and living in fear of something i dont belive in, besides i have enough hobbies and dont have time for all this study and church.. i do belive in spirituality how ever i dont thinkl reading the bible and knowing it by hart proves anything of ones spirituality, its a book written by men and to me is no more valid then L Ron Hubards scientology crap.. it is one thing to belive in "god" or "gods" a creator or how everyou interpert it but something entirely differnt to put all your faith in stories about jesus and to give jesus a god like status as it seems you do..

like i said im sure your just a nice normal guy to peopel that dont know your a jesus freak but when you post about your religon it is scary, in that its cult like following, i work with people who are just as fanatical, and as long as tehy dont talk about jesus for 5 seconds there great but they cant go morethen an hour with out claiming jesus involvement in some event.. its the extreme cult like following that is crazy.. i think the bible had some great lessons to teach us not to be barbarians, love each other ect..

but thats where it begins and ends read it, study it, go to church, be a good person, but dont think jesus talks to your because you open your hart to him, or that jesus give you strength to accoplish difficult things.. faith might give you strenght to do things but it doesnt come from jesus it comes from the confidence that you think jesus will help you through it but that ultimately comes from yourself and your confidence in your imaginary friend jesus..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Nismo..

I'm no better or nicer then you or anyone. I do wrong just like everyone else and definately not perfect. But I do look to the One who is perfect.


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> Again and again I've stated, I'm not Catholic and those who have done contrary to the teachings of Jesus are not Christians, even if they claim to be one. True Chrstians have done more good to today's society and everyone is still anti-christian. Christian organizations-Salvation Army, Red Cross, Feed the Children Ministry, Rescue Missions, Baptist Men's Relieve Org., Faith International and the modern day hospital system was created by Christians. This great country was found by Christians. My little country church (located in a trailer park) have helped countless of less fortunately families. According to you all, we're nothing but a bunch of wicked people.
> 
> When Jesus was on the cross, He asked God to forgive them for they know not what they do. That's true Christianity.
> 
> ...


Noone is attacking you or Christians, and noone said you are "nothing but a bunch of wicked people." All we are suggesting is that modern day Christianity ignores many aspects of the history of Jesus, aspects that may be far more true to life and conistent then the texts you are used to reading. IMO Christians tend to have a VERY closed mind to other religions and any deviations or additions from Matthew Mark Luke and John. I beleive that these texts are carefully chosen and edited to fit the modern Church as it is today, an organization and it many ways a business. I also beleive here are other texts which better describe the message Jesus wanted to send. However these texts get ignored because we were all told they were heracy. I dont buy it.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

ESPMike said:


> Again and again I've stated, I'm not Catholic and those who have done contrary to the teachings of Jesus are not Christians, even if they claim to be one. True Chrstians have done more good to today's society and everyone is still anti-christian. Christian organizations-Salvation Army, Red Cross, Feed the Children Ministry, Rescue Missions, Baptist Men's Relieve Org., Faith International and the modern day hospital system was created by Christians. This great country was found by Christians. My little country church (located in a trailer park) have helped countless of less fortunately families. According to you all, we're nothing but a bunch of wicked people.
> 
> When Jesus was on the cross, He asked God to forgive them for they know not what they do. That's true Christianity.
> 
> ...


Noone is attacking you or Christians, and noone said you are "nothing but a bunch of wicked people." All we are suggesting is that modern day Christianity ignores many aspects of the history of Jesus, aspects that may be far more true to life and conistent then the texts you are used to reading. IMO Christians tend to have a VERY closed mind to other religions and any deviations or additions from Matthew Mark Luke and John. I beleive that these texts are carefully chosen and edited to fit the modern Church as it is today, an organization and it many ways a business. I also beleive here are other texts which better describe the message Jesus wanted to send. However these texts get ignored because we were all told they were heracy. I dont buy it.
[/quote]

they have to be closed minded or there fiath would be in question..


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Well, this has turned into an anti-Christian debate, which I did not inted, but I must say...I question those who call themselves complete believers in faith and devout followers of The Holy Long Haired Man, when there are children dying around the world and people starving, while they drive their Tahoe's and Jags to million dollar churches wearing clothes which cost more than feeding a child for a year, and praying to someone who they believe is more worthy of love then your average human, after denouncing anyone who doesnt believe exactly what they believe...followed by coffee and social gatherings...A lot of people preach, but I see very few practice


This statement really sums up the problem with the direction this thread has taken. DannyBoy, you are taking a group of people and shoving them all in a box and labeling them "complete believers" when you know nothing of what it means to be a believer.

This is the same thing that is taking place in the Muslim world. Because of a few fanatical Muslim followers, people are lumping them all in a box and labeling them as terrorists. This is ignorant and has no validity behind it. I do not follow the "Holy Long Haired Man", you have no knowledge what so ever regarding my church, what we are actively doing in the battle of the homeless, how we are helping to clothe people in Russia, bringing Christmas gifts to children who's parents are in prison, working with those struggling with drug addiction, how we are helping to set up (and teach) at educational facilities in Russia...I could go on and on.

I don't drive a Tahoe or a Jag...I drive a 12 year old Honda that I paid 500.00 for and just had to replace the heads, hoping to get another 40k miles out of it. I don't work at a church that has millions.

Nor do any of the churches or people I know...

This thread was to discuss the book of Judas and how was it going to be viewed, and it turned into an anti-Christian debate like you said...and that is too bad. I find it funny how everyone gets all hopped up and angry with Christianity because "we" won't respect "your" views...but if you read this thread, you see no respect for someone elses views?!? I don't get it?!?

I don't care what any one of you believe...that is the great thing about Christianity! It is up to you...if you want to believe, great! If you don't...great! If I can respect your choice to not believe...why can't you respect my choice to believe?

You, DannyBoy, found alot of respect in the man in your sig line. I would never think about disrespecting your views or what is meaningful to you. But I see so often that this respect is not afforded back...and I find that to be sad.

Now I am not meaning this thread to be directed at you DannyBoy personally. But I get very saddened by the lack of respect that is given to others in regards to their beliefs...no matter if it is to the "Holy Long Haired Man" or some nutbag who died on a bus (both terms I feel are very disrespectful to those who believe in what they stood for...then and now).


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

I know nothing of faith? Now who is the one showing no respect? Because I am not a Christian, doesnt mean I dont love and respect the man who was Jesus Christ any less than you do. I believe in God through the hearts of the people, and Christ was a great man, but he is no more worthy of "worship" than any other man who is brave enough to stand up for what he believes in and who is compassionate.

What about the giant churches you see on TV too? And how about the Billions of dollars the Vatican has control of (trillions?). I just dont believe faith can be organized.

BTW, I have no lost respect or hurt feelings from this thread, and this is simply dialogue about spirituality. I dont think any more or less of people because of their faith. I hope others feel the same way.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> I know nothing of faith? Now who is the one showing no respect? Because I am not a Christian, doesnt mean I dont love and respect the man who was Jesus Christ any less than you do. I believe in God through the hearts of the people, and Christ was a great man, but he is no more worthy of "worship" than any other man who is brave enough to stand up for what he believes in and who is compassionate.
> 
> What about the giant churches you see on TV too? And how about the Billions of dollars the Vatican has control of (trillions?). I just dont believe faith can be organized.
> 
> BTW, I have no lost respect or hurt feelings from this thread, *and this is simply dialogue about spirituality.* I dont think any more or less of people because of their faith. I hope others feel the same way.


i think that in order to have dialogue (in bohm's sense), both sides have to be receptive.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

hyphen said:


> I know nothing of faith? Now who is the one showing no respect? Because I am not a Christian, doesnt mean I dont love and respect the man who was Jesus Christ any less than you do. I believe in God through the hearts of the people, and Christ was a great man, but he is no more worthy of "worship" than any other man who is brave enough to stand up for what he believes in and who is compassionate.
> 
> What about the giant churches you see on TV too? And how about the Billions of dollars the Vatican has control of (trillions?). I just dont believe faith can be organized.
> 
> BTW, I have no lost respect or hurt feelings from this thread, *and this is simply dialogue about spirituality.* I dont think any more or less of people because of their faith. I hope others feel the same way.


i think that in order to have dialogue (in bohm's sense), both sides have to be receptive.
[/quote]

Ok, then its arguing







Better than apathy tho!


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

that's better. i think that's one of the main reasons i left christianity as a whole. people weren't open minded enough. only one christian i knew was as open as i was when it came to other religions and hearing perspectives from the other side of the fence. coincidentally, he's also no longer christian.

it would be nice to have a discussion/dialogue with christians willing to actually discuss topics like this without getting on the defensive and non-believers not attacking their religion. unfortunately, like you said about america, there's really no inbetween.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> acestro,
> 
> You're quoting the scripture out of context. All those verses are talking about the spirital man. As Christians, we are commaned to "love thy enemies". Of all those youv'e quoted, not one suggest to harm anyone because they are non-believers. We're to hate their sin, not the person. Judgement will be done by God at the end time.


As you evidenced in your earlier quotes, the Gospels embody a much more peaceful and forgiving image of God. There is nothing out of context about an Old Testament God, time and again, commanding the Hebrews to slaughter entire villages, women and children included. This is a recurring theme in Joshua, Judges, and Samuel. Of course, this speaks more for the early Hebrew leaders' perception of God than for God Himself. How can any Christian take these violent episodes as God's word? See Deut 20: 16-18; This is the "Law of Anathema," where the inhabitants of a city are devoted to Yaweh for destruction. This is hardcore religious violence pure and simple.

Many say this has become an anti-Christian thread, but really to cite the contradictions between the Gospels and Old Testament history is to cite many of the reasons why the Gnostics disassociated themselves from the early church. Many of them thought the Old Testament God was Satan, which is also somewhat simplistic.
I don't completely adhere to the Gospels view either, since I believe there is a sometimes a need to fight in Gods name. Any soldier praying on the battlefield cannot deny this. But to say wholesale destruction is quoted out of context seems to me to take one from the politicians.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> I know nothing of faith? Now who is the one showing no respect?


I did not say that you know nothing of faith...what I said was...



> ...when you know nothing of what it means to be a believer.


You stated yourself that you are not a Christian...



> Because I am not a Christian...


So I do not think that I am being rude. How can you understand something that you do not believe? It would be common sense to me that if I do not believe in being Mormon, that I am not going to understand why they believe it. How is that rude?

Hypen - I am more than receptive to having a dialoge regarding the book of Judas...but this has turned into an anti-christian thread (as DannyBoy has already admitted). Having a discussion is one thing...speaking your (not you literally) opinion about how stupid it is to be a Christian and then expect me to go "Oh your right...how silly of me" is another thing.

*Hypen* - "Here is why I believe Christianity is stupid"

*Pastor Jeff * - "I am going to defend my faith...it is not stupid to me"

*Hypen * - "You're not open to discussion"










Nobody is telling anyone that they have to believe what I or anyone else believes. So why should you (not you literally) feel free to tell me how what I believe is dumb? When a believer defends their faith, they are "not open for discussion"...when a non-believer states why faith is futile they are educated, well versed intellectuals. How does that work?

People complain about not being able to have a discussion...what about this thread? It started out as a discussion regarding the book of Judas, and it turned. What about the discussion? Or is that complaint only valid when it comes to bashing Christianity?

*Edit: Hypen - I don't want you to think this is directed at you personally...it is not. It is directed at the way this thread is going. Just wanted to clear that up.

DannyBoy - I don't want you to think that I am p.o.'d at you...I really am not. I debate this stuff all the time. I love to discuss it...I just won't roll over on my faith, nor more than would I expect you to. Hope that makes sense?!?*


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

Another quote I found that I liked from the book "Walk On":

"I go to America and I turn on my television set, and I start sweating profusely because those guys have turned faith into an industry. It's appaling." -Bono


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

please use the quote feature to show me where i said:

"Here is why I believe Christianity is stupid"

and

"You're not open to discussion"

the last time i checked, which was 10 seconds ago, i never said either of those things. my posts were unbiased and i tried to stimulate a respectable discussion, which later turned into a bible quoting spree.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Another quote I found that I liked from the book "Walk On":
> 
> "I go to America and I turn on my television set, and I start sweating profusely because those guys have turned faith into an industry. It's appaling." -Bono


Here I have to agree with you. What the televangelist has done to the faith is horrible. They have turned it into an industry. The big one now is called "Health and Wealth Belief"

I can't find this book online...who wrote it? Bono?


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Another quote I found that I liked from the book "Walk On":
> 
> "I go to America and I turn on my television set, and I start sweating profusely because those guys have turned faith into an industry. It's appaling." -Bono


UUUGGHHH first of all your quoting bono, just because your a world famus rock star that contributes to charity doesnt mean his opinions really matter.. i hate bono hes just as bad as shaun penn.. stop being political bono shut up stupid and sing you midget irish tool...!!!! sorry had to rant..

those churchs that idiots talking about are teleavangalist and yes it is retarted and up setting but its isnt even close to being a majority of american religon..


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

hyphen said:


> please use the quote feature to show me where i said:
> 
> "Here is why I believe Christianity is stupid"
> 
> ...


Hypen you didn't say those things, nor did I. I was using that as an example. That was a conversation from the land of imagination to make my point regarding the way conversation has been going with some members...not you.

That is why I edited what I did at the bottom of my post.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

PastorJeff said:


> Another quote I found that I liked from the book "Walk On":
> 
> "I go to America and I turn on my television set, and I start sweating profusely because those guys have turned faith into an industry. It's appaling." -Bono


UUUGGHHH first of all your quoting bono, just because your a world famus rock star that contributes to charity doesnt mean his opinions really matter.. i hate bono hes just as bad as shaun penn.. stupid being political and sign bono you midget irish tool...!!!! sorry had to rant..

those churchs that idiots talking about are teleavangalist and yes it is retarted and up setting but its isnt even close to being a majority of american religon..
[/quote]

People hate Bono because they are told to, but I love him and his band. They are great musicians. Plus Im Irish









Honestly tho, pick up "Go Home: U2 Live at Slane Castle" its a DVD concert. I love them, probably have 15 of them, and this is by far the best.

Oh Pastor Jeff, heres the one I have:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097603575...glance&n=283155


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

ah, didn't see that edit. then what you say is true.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> People hate Bono because they are told to, but I love him and his band. They are great musicians. Plus Im Irish :laugh:


NO NO NO lets get this perfectly clear I hate bono because i dont really like U2 i think they are very overrated for one and two i hate celebrities that hink they should have a political influence or be of some importance because they are famous.. sure he does some good things for people as he should considering the price gouging for a ticket to a U2 concert.. hes no better then any hollywood douch that uses celebrity status to make a differnece.. its bullshit his role is to entertain the end..


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

So you think its better for all celebrities to not do anything good? Or what about the fact that Bono lost millinos of Dollars off his Evolution tour when he put it on hold for a year to go to Africa with his wife to help fun an aids program, or what about when he went to Ethiopia in '84, before anyone even knew his name? He was a spiritual person, and a contributor to scoial justice long before he became famous man. I can understand why you wouldnt like his music, it has a different ring to it, but I would say hes far from a douchebag.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> So you think its better for all celebrities to not do anything good? Or what about the fact that Bono lost millinos of Dollars off his Evolution tour when he put it on hold for a year to go to Africa with his wife to help fun an aids program, or what about when he went to Ethiopia in '84, before anyone even knew his name? He was a spiritual person, and a contributor to scoial justice long before he became famous man. I can understand why you wouldnt like his music, it has a different ring to it, but I would say hes far from a douchebag.


i never siad helping people was bad..



> just because your a world famus rock star that contributes to charity doesnt mean his opinions really matter


its when they get all preachy that gets me..


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Preachy celebs could definitely be another thread. It is annoying but at least they're trying to do something positive, as opposed to going into politics









And, rchan, I didn't mean to mock you or anyone else, just in case there's confusion there. My point is the bible can, and often is, taken too literally (so to speak) and that Chrisitianity has suffered the trials of time and government and over-organization. Still a noble and healthy faith.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

I dont know, I wouldnt really call him Preachy considering what he's done to help people. He wasnt named man of the year (with Bill Gates who deserved it equally so) for nothing.

I will ask Ceiling Cat hwta he thinks of all of this when I get home :laugh:


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Ceiling cat sees all :nod:


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> What is the evidence that the Bible is logically foul? Would you bring that evidence here, without a bias of your own?
> That would be an interesting conversation.
> 
> What do you think of the verses that clearly indicate that God reveals His word to those who seek Him with all of their hearts, and hides it from those whom do not?
> -Have you tried this, honestly, or have you studied religion for other reasons than seeking after God?


I have studied religions for years and recently took ( and still take ) critical thinking classes to arm myself with offensive and defensive measures. I have only scrathed the surface using them on this site, haven't used alot of what I know because there hasn't been a time that have I needed it. And probably never will be.

Anyway

If you would like to discuss logical errors, hatred, sexism, child and spousal abuse, intolerance, homophobia, and other discrimination within the bible, or basically if the bible is fact or fiction create a topic for it. But remember facts that can't be backed with proven evidence, aren't facts but unproven beliefs.

Invisible Khristos with the black hat (God of a parody religion) would look down on such a topic though. For he is all powerful and created everyone, thing, thought and action we do. (Anyone catch the error there ?)

1. Prove Khristos doesn't exist
2. Prove Khristos isn't all powerful and all knowing.
3. You can't





















> What do you think of the verses that clearly indicate that God reveals His word to those who seek Him with all of their hearts, and hides it from those whom do not?


"What do you think" -
Mixture of appeal to the majority, hominem, and begging the question errors.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Like to add;

I hope that church goers and bible believers would stand back and let things happen. In affect, "be gone". Why try to slow events down, if they truely must happen and set in stone -then why prolong the inevitable?

I hope I am not viewed as a two face gambler & shadow man that viciously slashes at the church, religions, and religious to speed up bibical prophecies beucase I said that. Because, I have been accused of it.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

User said:


> Like to add;
> 
> I hope that church goers and bible believers would stand back and let things happen. In affect, "be gone". Why try to slow events down, if they truely must happen and set in stone -then why prolong the inevitable?


What do you mean? I don't get it? Not being smart...stand back and let what happen?


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## User (May 31, 2004)

PastorJeff said:


> Like to add;
> 
> I hope that church goers and bible believers would stand back and let things happen. In affect, "be gone". Why try to slow events down, if they truely must happen and set in stone -then why prolong the inevitable?


What do you mean? I don't get it? Not being smart...stand back and let what happen?
[/quote]

Long story - short version, during one class we had protestant christians debate issues and after one class, one man suggested while privately talking after class that I (and millions of other people)was relgious and only pretend to be agnostic/atheist and act worldly and bash religion to speed up the revelation. (futurist view, his interperation with the bible was more in turn with that of Hal Lindsey - you may know of him) It was a twisted interperation of my honest opinion.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

User said:


> Like to add;
> 
> I hope that church goers and bible believers would stand back and let things happen. In affect, "be gone". Why try to slow events down, if they truely must happen and set in stone -then why prolong the inevitable?


What do you mean? I don't get it? Not being smart...stand back and let what happen?
[/quote]

Long story - short version, during one class we had protestant christians debate issues and after one class, one man suggested while privately talking after class that I (and millions of other people)was relgious and only pretend to be agnostic/atheist and act worldly and bash religion to speed up the revelation. (futurist view, his interperation with the bible was more in turn with that of Hal Lindsey - you may know of him) It was a twisted interperation of my honest opinion.
[/quote]
I guess I don't understand how denial of a religious ideal ends up speeding along the process of acceptance?

This could get interesting...


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

PastorJeff said:


> Well, this has turned into an anti-Christian debate, which I did not inted, but I must say...I question those who call themselves complete believers in faith and devout followers of The Holy Long Haired Man, when there are children dying around the world and people starving, while they drive their Tahoe's and Jags to million dollar churches wearing clothes which cost more than feeding a child for a year, and praying to someone who they believe is more worthy of love then your average human, after denouncing anyone who doesnt believe exactly what they believe...followed by coffee and social gatherings...A lot of people preach, but I see very few practice


This statement really sums up the problem with the direction this thread has taken. DannyBoy, you are taking a group of people and shoving them all in a box and labeling them "complete believers" when you know nothing of what it means to be a believer.

This is the same thing that is taking place in the Muslim world. Because of a few fanatical Muslim followers, people are lumping them all in a box and labeling them as terrorists. This is ignorant and has no validity behind it. I do not follow the "Holy Long Haired Man", you have no knowledge what so ever regarding my church, what we are actively doing in the battle of the homeless, how we are helping to clothe people in Russia, bringing Christmas gifts to children who's parents are in prison, working with those struggling with drug addiction, how we are helping to set up (and teach) at educational facilities in Russia...I could go on and on.

I don't drive a Tahoe or a Jag...I drive a 12 year old Honda that I paid 500.00 for and just had to replace the heads, hoping to get another 40k miles out of it. I don't work at a church that has millions.

Nor do any of the churches or people I know...

This thread was to discuss the book of Judas and how was it going to be viewed, and it turned into an anti-Christian debate like you said...and that is too bad. I find it funny how everyone gets all hopped up and angry with Christianity because "we" won't respect "your" views...but if you read this thread, you see no respect for someone elses views?!? I don't get it?!?

I don't care what any one of you believe...that is the great thing about Christianity! It is up to you...if you want to believe, great! If you don't...great! If I can respect your choice to not believe...why can't you respect my choice to believe?

You, DannyBoy, found alot of respect in the man in your sig line. I would never think about disrespecting your views or what is meaningful to you. But I see so often that this respect is not afforded back...and I find that to be sad.

Now I am not meaning this thread to be directed at you DannyBoy personally. But I get very saddened by the lack of respect that is given to others in regards to their beliefs...no matter if it is to the "Holy Long Haired Man" or some nutbag who died on a bus (both terms I feel are very disrespectful to those who believe in what they stood for...then and now).
[/quote]

I dont see ho Christianity is being bashed. Its simply being questioned. They are two very different things. As I said before I do consider myself a Christian, I do beleive in God, and that Jesus was His son. However I do not beleive that the message Jesus intended to send is depicted by the 4 gospels. I think Jesus' message is skewed to better conform to the organized Churches of today. I have simply shared my beleifs with everyone and asked for your thoughts on my beleifs. In fact, the people supporting Christianity have been attacking those that don't for considering the Gospel of Judas and others like it as real gospels.

I dont understand how you feel offended or attacked. I never attacked you or your beleifs, only questioned them and asked you to share your opinion on my beleifs and on these other disputed gospels. Im sorry you feel offended but I dont understand why you are.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

ESPMike said:


> I dont see ho Christianity is being bashed. Its simply being questioned. They are two very different things. As I said before I do consider myself a Christian, I do beleive in God, and that Jesus was His son. However I do not beleive that the message Jesus intended to send is depicted by the 4 gospels. I think Jesus' message is skewed to better conform to the organized Churches of today. I have simply shared my beleifs with everyone and asked for your thoughts on my beleifs. In fact, the people supporting Christianity have been attacking those that don't for considering the Gospel of Judas and others like it as real gospels.
> 
> I dont understand how you feel offended or attacked. I never attacked you or your beleifs, only questioned them and asked you to share your opinion on my beleifs and on these other disputed gospels. Im sorry you feel offended but I dont understand why you are.


I am not sure what thread you are reading...but this thread is full of it, and people here have admitted it.

This thread was started to talk about the new book of Judas found...and it turned into this. As for you being attacked...whatever. I have already stated my peace about that. Everyone is entitled to their opinon. You are entitled to yours, and others are entitled to theirs, I am entitled to mine.

If they don't think that the book of Judas is valid, then that is there perogative.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2006)

If it's an concilation, I think that the bashing was started by Christians against the book of Judas.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> If it's an concilation, I think that the bashing was started by Christians against the book of Judas.


Are you serious? As logical as our discussions have been...that is going to be your stance? That this was started by Christians against the book off Judas?

Do you realize that they only had a small percentage that was intact and they used a computer to fill in the blanks?

Do you realize that 80% of scholars (Christian and non) say that this was probably written by a family member to restore honor to the name Iscariot?

So "Christians" don't accept this book...it has not even been validated yet...and we started this for being against a "book"?

I honestly hope you were kidding. That is the most crazy, illogical thing I have ever seen you type.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2006)

Really? You clearly havent read a lot of my posts then :laugh:


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

PastorJeff said:


> If it's an concilation, I think that the bashing was started by Christians against the book of Judas.


Are you serious? As logical as our discussions have been...that is going to be your stance? That this was started by Christians against the book off Judas?

Do you realize that they only had a small percentage that was intact and they used a computer to fill in the blanks?

Do you realize that 80% of scholars (Christian and non) say that this was probably written by a family member to restore honor to the name Iscariot?

So "Christians" don't accept this book...it has not even been validated yet...and we started this for being against a "book"?

*I honestly hope you were kidding. That is the most crazy, illogical thing I have ever seen you type.*
[/quote]

i agree that most of danny's post fit into this catagory, how ever i think his pointis that no matter if it is proven disprove what ever the case christians will never accept this "book' because it contradicts there "book" and cast doubt into there faith..

personally i cannot understand how people put so much "faith" into christianity in the first place and then turn around and act the way so many people do towards other belifes like they are herticis, there going to hell for not sharing the same belifes.. ect..


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

PastorJeff said:


> I dont see ho Christianity is being bashed. Its simply being questioned. They are two very different things. As I said before I do consider myself a Christian, I do beleive in God, and that Jesus was His son. However I do not beleive that the message Jesus intended to send is depicted by the 4 gospels. I think Jesus' message is skewed to better conform to the organized Churches of today. I have simply shared my beleifs with everyone and asked for your thoughts on my beleifs. In fact, the people supporting Christianity have been attacking those that don't for considering the Gospel of Judas and others like it as real gospels.
> 
> I dont understand how you feel offended or attacked. I never attacked you or your beleifs, only questioned them and asked you to share your opinion on my beleifs and on these other disputed gospels. Im sorry you feel offended but I dont understand why you are.


I am not sure what thread you are reading...but this thread is full of it, and people here have admitted it.

This thread was started to talk about the new book of Judas found...and it turned into this. As for you being attacked...whatever. I have already stated my peace about that. Everyone is entitled to their opinon. You are entitled to yours, and others are entitled to theirs, I am entitled to mine.

If they don't think that the book of Judas is valid, then that is there perogative.
[/quote]

Your absolutely right that the point of the thread was to discuss the validity and contents of the Gospel of Judas. However the instant someone suggested that it was a valid document even though it contradicts the 4 Gospels of the Bible, everyone got really defensive like they were being attacked, when in reality they were just being engaged in a discussion of the validity of other Gospels. However soon as someone defended the idea that these other gospels were valid, it got turned into a scripture quoting frenzy because there was no other way to defend against the idea that those gospels being quoted were less valid then these others. Instead of maintaining a discussion about the history of the matter, everyone became very defensive and became unwilling to have a reasonable discussion on the matter, and instead started viewing anyone questioning the bible as the "non-beleivers" and heretics. All that was every asked of any of you was a valid argument as to why we should beleive in the 4 Gospels rather then say the Gospel of Judas or Thomas. You were either unable or unwilling to give a reason for that, and instead posted more scriptures and danced around the rebuttals to your reasonings. You were never attacked, the foundations of your beleifs were questioned and you were unable or unwilling to support them with logical ideas.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

ESPMike said:


> ]
> 
> Your absolutely right that the point of the thread was to discuss the validity and contents of the Gospel of Judas. However the instant someone suggested that it was a valid document even though it contradicts the 4 Gospels of the Bible, everyone got really defensive like they were being attacked, when in reality they were just being engaged in a discussion of the validity of other Gospels. However soon as someone defended the idea that these other gospels were valid, it got turned into a scripture quoting frenzy because there was no other way to defend against the idea that those gospels being quoted were less valid then these others. Instead of maintaining a discussion about the history of the matter, everyone became very defensive and became unwilling to have a reasonable discussion on the matter, and instead started viewing anyone questioning the bible as the "non-beleivers" and heretics. All that was every asked of any of you was a valid argument as to why we should beleive in the 4 Gospels rather then say the Gospel of Judas or Thomas. You were either unable or unwilling to give a reason for that, and instead posted more scriptures and danced around the rebuttals to your reasonings. You were never attacked, the foundations of your beleifs were questioned and* you were unable or unwilling to support them with logical ideas.*


Great post..

you cant support them with logical ideas because it ahs nothing to do with logic its all about "faith" yet christians cant imagine having "faith" in evolution or other things that contradict the bible and have logical explinations that is what is so rediculous about christianity, scientology or any other religon..


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Wow...what a tangled web we weave...

I would challenge any of you to find where I have posted scripture as I have talked...I can do so, but why? Not because I don't believe it, but because I do...but it does not make much sense for me to throw scripture at someone that does not put the value on it as I do.

So I don't know where you feel that I have just "posted scripture"

Regarding the book of Judas...

I really don't care if it is right or it is wrong in what it says...it really has no bearing on what I believe. Remember, there are ALOT of books that were written that were not added into what we know today as the Bible. Many of these books were written by gnostics in an effort to draw people away from the Christian faith (due to the momentum it was gaining as Christianity grew)

A good example of this is the Apocrapha (sp?) While it is in the Catholic Bible (a majority of them) we do not use that in ours. Is it wrong? Is it right? Our view is that there is alot to learn from it, but it was not included in the cannonization process, therefore we do not include it in our Bible (that is the condensed version...)

For the hundreththousandthmillionthbillionth time (no exaggeration there huh?) I am willing to get into a debate/discussion about this. I have been willing to. But don't expect me to roll over on my faith...it just is not going to happen.

Do you really think that my faith is fragile enough that a little book of Judas is going to shatter it? Let's have a discussion! Step out from behind the "Your faith is dumb...your dumb for believeing it...you don't/can't think" mentality and ask a question regarding this dumb little book of Judas...

I have started another thread on this as this one has gotten all junked up...feel free to post anything on the book of Judas there.

Hope to have a good discussion!


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

nismo driver said:


> I'm sick and tired of the fundamentalist approach to the texts. Experience on a daily basis matters much more than some perverted fear of eternal damnation, which is exactly what the radical Muslims do to brainwash their adherents. A true spiritual walk will tell us what text of any religion that should bear relevance for us.


I'm a Fundamental Baptist and it's not the fear of damnation that's keeping me from sinning. 
Romans 8:1 -"There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

It's the love for Christ that's keeping me to do anything that'll displease Him, not fear.
[/quote]

that and an ample dose of brainwashing.. no offense but you are a jesus extremist..
[/quote]

How is it in these topics YOU are ALWAYS the most offiensive and always seem on the attack??


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## werdna (Mar 15, 2005)

lol .. the TORONTO STAR? what a bunch of bs


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> Do you really think that my faith is fragile enough that a little book of Judas is going to shatter it? Let's have a discussion! Step out from behind the "Your faith is dumb...your dumb for believeing it...you don't/can't think" mentality and ask a question regarding this dumb little book of Judas...


:nod:


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## Kohan Bros. (Aug 24, 2004)

untill i can read the whole gospel of judas, i wont understand its main point, or the controversy.

all ive seen are lil quotes and paraphrases from the gospel saying that he was jesus' friend and other hoohaa
let me read the damn book, not just someones interpretations of this book, so that i can really see for myself the message and meanings behind it.

just my $.02

btw some ppl just need to chill out about their faith


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2006)

werdna said:


> lol .. the TORONTO STAR? what a bunch of bs


Ya man







Same with the Globe and Mail, the New York Times and the Discovery and History channels eh :laugh:

Please sit back down


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

PastorJeff said:


> lol .. the TORONTO STAR? what a bunch of bs


Hey, thanks for the most ignorant post in the thread.







The Toronto Star was simply the article used to bring up the topic of an acient scripture found in Egypt and recently discovered to be the Gospel of Judas Iscariot. Mational Geographic also did a 2 hour special on it if that makes it more valid to you.

In any case I think with the addition of the new thread by PastorJeff, this disaster of a discussion has run its course.


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## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

Im not a religious man by heart, I have my beliefs and ideas.

But from what I just read in the Toronto Star article, according to the Judas Gospel, Hell is on earth?



> In fact, Jesus entrusted Judas with a secret he did not reveal to any of his other disciples: That this world was not created by the one true God, but by a lesser, evil divinity as a place to entrap divine spirits.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2006)

ProdigalMarine said:


> Im not a religious man by heart, I have my beliefs and ideas.
> 
> But from what I just read in the Toronto Star article, according to the Judas Gospel, Hell is on earth?
> 
> ...


Youve been to Iraq, you know better than us!


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2006)

A quick question btw, because Im curious.

What do Christians say about the Da Vinci Code?





































Good speech:

http://www.danbrown.com/media/audio/DVC_NH_talk.wav


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

The Da Vinci Code is a book of fiction. I've not read it and don't really care about it.

NY Times best seller list

HARDCOVER FICTION
Top 5 at a Glance
1. GONE, by Jonathan Kellerman
2. THE DA VINCI CODE, by Dan Brown
3. THE 5TH HORSEMAN, by James Patterson and Maxine Paetro
4. THE HOUSE, by Danielle Steel
5. THE TENTH CIRCLE, by Jodi Picoult


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> The Da Vinci Code is a book of fiction. I've not read it and don't really care about it.
> 
> NY Times best seller list
> 
> ...


and the bible wouldnt be a work of fiction had it been release last year?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> and the bible wouldnt be a work of fiction had it been release last year?


It's not a book of fiction. Please take Dippy's advise and do some reasearch.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> and the bible wouldnt be a work of fiction had it been release last year?


It's not a book of fiction. Please take Dippy's advise and do some reasearch.
[/quote]

your failing to make a point fo any kind especially since teh example of fiction dan browns book is laoded with "artifact that can be seen by anyone in a measeam where as most of the artifact inteh bible are hidden away in the vatican..

im not even trying to say the davinci code isnt a work of fiction, my point is the bible is also a work of fiction, just like the scientology religon is based on ficion books by L Ron Hubbard

just like divinci codeteh bible could just as easily been written around facts that can be proven to be based around artifacts but there are many things in teh bible that can never be proven.. that where faith comes in, with out faith the bible is nothing more then any other fiction book


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Bible prophecies that have come true so far

sorted by prophet:
• Abraham's prophecies
• Amos' prophecies
• Daniel's prophecies
• Ezekiel's prophecies
• Hosea's prophecies
• Isaiah's prophecies
• Jacob's prophecies
• Jeremiah's prophecies
• Jesus' prophecies
• Joel's prophecies
• Micah's prophecies
• Moses' prophecies
• Nahum's prophecies
• Zechariah's prophecies

Bible prophecies
sorted by theme:
• Destruction of Israel
• Exile of Israel
• Dispersion of Israel
• Persecution of Israel
• Re-gathering of Israel
• Nationhood (Israel)
• Preservation of Israel
• Restoration of Israel
• Worldwide impact
• Messianic
• About other nations
• End Times

Of course it's either coincident or "my" own interpretation.

I need to "redeem" my time and spend my time more constructively then to waste my time here on this thread.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Bible prophecies that have come true so far
> 
> sorted by prophet:
> • Abraham's prophecies
> ...


how does a prophecies prove it if a book is fiction or non fiction? not to mention with the cult like following of the bible it makes sense that prophecies would not only be fufilled because of its following but when events happen everyone is looking for some elemets to cliam a prophecy is being fufilled..

i agree about end times though george bush is the anti christ..


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Unlike George Bush the antichrist will actually create peace, according to text. That alone discredits Bush, Bin Laden etc.



> how does a prophecies prove it if a book is fiction or non fiction? not to mention with the cult like following of the bible it makes sense that prophecies would not only be fufilled because of its following but when events happen everyone is looking for some elemets to cliam a prophecy is being fufilled..


I once tried fairness and liked it, so I must say something about this.

Prophecies fulfilled do not prove fact or fiction of its religion to those who doesn't believe the prophecy first hand. Christianity isn't a cult in western society because it holds the majority. In fact one of the smallest cults would be hard atheism, since it would need people to believe and have faith a God doesn't exist with no proof, agnostism is the balance between the two and doesn't require faith. Many people would believe the current situation of Israel and Iran is prophetic, then again that person must have already gave creedence to the prophecy of Israel, Iran and Russia.


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