# Spine bone hanging out of where tail was!!!!!!



## Nephthys010 (Feb 4, 2006)

HI guys,
I think im in big trouble here i have a breeding pair that have already killed one of my reds now they turned on this one. He has NO tail its stripped back so far you can see his spine bone, he's lost all balance but is still putting up a fight & swimming. This happened two days ago.
I've moved him to a hospitail tank & have been told to use MYXAZIN & salt which i am.

Do you think hes suffering cuz i'd rather put him down then keep him alive in pain. He's still tried to bite me a couple of times and is eating fine but he cant keep upright when not moving.
I know his tail wont grow back properly or not at all i just need to know what you guys would do with this poor little bugger!

Thanks xxxx


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

If it were just part of the tail, he could grow that back, but if it is down to the bone, that won't come back.

It's time for the freezer. Put him in a baggie and place him in the freezer until he is gone. It is the most humane way.

Sorry to hear about it.


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## soon2breed (Aug 30, 2006)

freezer is most humane????


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

soon2breed said:


> freezer is most humane????


Yep...it puts them into a sleep state until they end up dying.

They do the very same thing with lobster before they cook them. Slows everything down...very painless.


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## Nephthys010 (Feb 4, 2006)

So thats it from 6 to 2 in a year GOD DAMN i wasnt supposed to have piranhas

You think the best thing is to freeze him then not just see how he goes after a weekof treatment?
Sorry im just clutching at straws he's taken a turn for the worst anyway cuz hes lying on his side now









Thanks for the info 
xxxxx


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## eiji (Sep 16, 2006)

if he's lying on his side now then he'll be a goner soon.. 
you have to do what you have to do, end the pain for your P..


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

fish lover said:


> if he's lying on his side now then he'll be a goner soon..
> you have to do what you have to do, end the pain for your P..


Yeah...he isn't going to make it...I would just put him down.

Sorry about that...


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

PastorJeff said:


> freezer is most humane????


Yep...it puts them into a sleep state until they end up dying.

They do the very same thing with lobster before they cook them. Slows everything down...very painless.
[/quote]

that si not true at all
the freezer SLOWLY kills them, I dont know where u got the info thats its painless but they get hypotherma and slowly their blood thickens and crystalizes. Not a fun way to die

Take the fish and drop it in extremely hot boiling water
kills it instantly

please dont advise other members to stick fish in the freezer unles they are already dead

Freezing

This method can be carried out by simply getting a container of tank water with fish in it, covering it, and putting it into the freezer. There are however, certain humane issues with this method as well.

1. Most tropical fish are not known to enter a dormancy stage when in extreme cold. The same thing that happens in humans happens in fish. The body severely constricts the blood vessels, starting from the extremities, to keep the center of the body warm. This action that the body takes is extremely long and painful, and thus is also long and painful for fish.
2. Coldwater fish however, are proven to have a dormancy stage. This is the same stage that allows them to hibernate in freezing water over the winter in ponds. Their body shuts down, metabolism all but stops, and the method is painless, for the most part. (Note that after the freezeing is done, the fish should be decapitated)
3. A freezer drops temperature very quickly, about a degree every few minutes. This is too fast for this method to be completely humane to both cold water and tropical fish.
4. Ice crystals will form in the blood stream and cells, causing extreme pain to the fish.

A much better method than freezing, is the temperature shock method.

http://aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=76451


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

thebluyak said:


> that si not true at all
> the freezer SLOWLY kills them, I dont know where u got the info thats its painless but they get hypotherma and slowly their blood thickens and crystalizes. Not a fun way to die
> 
> Take the fish and drop it in extremely hot boiling water
> ...


You have got to be kidding me? You get an article off another website, post it on here, and claim it as the gospel?

This comes down to your opinoin...and nothing more. The advice that I am giving has been given to me by not only respected members in the aquaria world, but also two vets. It also is the accepted way to terminate tropical fish within the University of Washington off the recommendations of the AVMA.

Now I am not talking about submerging them in ice water, but rather taking the fish, while wet, putting it in a ziplock bag, and placing it in the freezer. This takes the fish to 26 degrees Celcius (on averageg) which kills the fish in a humane way.

Is freezing instant? No. Is it humane? Yes. The only thing that would be more humane would be the use of barbituates...and that is a controlled substance, therefore illegal to a normal person like you and I. NOWHERE....AND I MEAN NOWHERE does the AVMA recommend putting your fish in boiling water!

Be careful to make definative statements when you are quoting some website compared to the AVMA.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

thebluyak said:


> freezer is most humane????


Yep...it puts them into a sleep state until they end up dying.

They do the very same thing with lobster before they cook them. Slows everything down...very painless.
[/quote]

that si not true at all
the freezer SLOWLY kills them, I dont know where u got the info thats its painless but they get hypotherma and slowly their blood thickens and crystalizes. Not a fun way to die

Take the fish and drop it in extremely hot boiling water
kills it instantly

please dont advise other members to stick fish in the freezer unles they are already dead

Freezing

This method can be carried out by simply getting a container of tank water with fish in it, covering it, and putting it into the freezer. There are however, certain humane issues with this method as well.

1. Most tropical fish are not known to enter a dormancy stage when in extreme cold. The same thing that happens in humans happens in fish. The body severely constricts the blood vessels, starting from the extremities, to keep the center of the body warm. This action that the body takes is extremely long and painful, and thus is also long and painful for fish.
2. Coldwater fish however, are proven to have a dormancy stage. This is the same stage that allows them to hibernate in freezing water over the winter in ponds. Their body shuts down, metabolism all but stops, and the method is painless, for the most part. (Note that after the freezeing is done, the fish should be decapitated)
3. A freezer drops temperature very quickly, about a degree every few minutes. This is too fast for this method to be completely humane to both cold water and tropical fish.
4. Ice crystals will form in the blood stream and cells, causing extreme pain to the fish.

A much better method than freezing, is the temperature shock method.

http://aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=76451
[/quote]

If you really want to get technical boiling water isnt humane either. The acdepted method is clove oil to put it to sleep and then into the freezer to make sure its properly put down.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

Ex0dus said:


> freezer is most humane????


Yep...it puts them into a sleep state until they end up dying.

They do the very same thing with lobster before they cook them. Slows everything down...very painless.
[/quote]

that si not true at all
the freezer SLOWLY kills them, I dont know where u got the info thats its painless but they get hypotherma and slowly their blood thickens and crystalizes. Not a fun way to die

Take the fish and drop it in extremely hot boiling water
kills it instantly

please dont advise other members to stick fish in the freezer unles they are already dead

Freezing

This method can be carried out by simply getting a container of tank water with fish in it, covering it, and putting it into the freezer. There are however, certain humane issues with this method as well.

1. Most tropical fish are not known to enter a dormancy stage when in extreme cold. The same thing that happens in humans happens in fish. The body severely constricts the blood vessels, starting from the extremities, to keep the center of the body warm. This action that the body takes is extremely long and painful, and thus is also long and painful for fish.
2. Coldwater fish however, are proven to have a dormancy stage. This is the same stage that allows them to hibernate in freezing water over the winter in ponds. Their body shuts down, metabolism all but stops, and the method is painless, for the most part. (Note that after the freezeing is done, the fish should be decapitated)
3. A freezer drops temperature very quickly, about a degree every few minutes. This is too fast for this method to be completely humane to both cold water and tropical fish.
4. Ice crystals will form in the blood stream and cells, causing extreme pain to the fish.

A much better method than freezing, is the temperature shock method.

http://aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=76451
[/quote]

If you really want to get technical boiling water isnt humane either. The acdepted method is clove oil to put it to sleep and then into the freezer to make sure its properly put down.
[/quote]
clove oil and vodka i've heard


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

PastorJeff said:


> that si not true at all
> the freezer SLOWLY kills them, I dont know where u got the info thats its painless but they get hypotherma and slowly their blood thickens and crystalizes. Not a fun way to die
> 
> Take the fish and drop it in extremely hot boiling water
> ...


You have got to be kidding me? You get an article off another website, post it on here, and claim it as the gospel?

This comes down to your opinoin...and nothing more. The advice that I am giving has been given to me by not only respected members in the aquaria world, but also two vets. It also is the accepted way to terminate tropical fish within the University of Washington off the recommendations of the AVMA.

Now I am not talking about submerging them in ice water, but rather taking the fish, while wet, putting it in a ziplock bag, and placing it in the freezer. This takes the fish to 26 degrees Celcius (on averageg) which kills the fish in a humane way.

Is freezing instant? No. Is it humane? Yes. The only thing that would be more humane would be the use of barbituates...and that is a controlled substance, therefore illegal to a normal person like you and I. NOWHERE....AND I MEAN NOWHERE does the AVMA recommend putting your fish in boiling water!

Be careful to make definative statements when you are quoting some website compared to the AVMA.
[/quote]

You never said make sure the water was about freezing,. you said STICK IT IN THE FREEZER which is what that article is covering. If you drop it in half frozen water yes it shuts down the central nervous system and they are put to sleep. But placing it in a cup of water and sticking it in the freezer and making fish pops is how your post was interpreted.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

thebluyak said:


> You never said make sure the water was about freezing,. you said STICK IT IN THE FREEZER which is what that article is covering. If you drop it in half frozen water yes it shuts down the central nervous system and they are put to sleep. But placing it in a cup of water and sticking it in the freezer and making fish pops is how your post was interpreted.


Sorry you interpreted it that way. Might be good to seek clarification next time.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

From what ive read, the boiling water pertains to cold water fish NOT tropical fish. Still, I dont think there is a way more humane than clove oil and vodka.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Ex0dus said:


> From what ive read, the boiling water pertains to cold water fish NOT tropical fish. Still, I dont think there is a way more humane than clove oil and vodka.


I have heard of that one too...but never used it myself. I heard that it was hard to get the clove oil to mix with the water???

Only what I heard, not anything I have ever tried. Does the clove oil knock them out and the vodka terminate?


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

PastorJeff said:


> From what ive read, the boiling water pertains to cold water fish NOT tropical fish. Still, I dont think there is a way more humane than clove oil and vodka.


I have heard of that one too...but never used it myself. I heard that it was hard to get the clove oil to mix with the water???

Only what I heard, not anything I have ever tried. Does the clove oil knock them out and the vodka terminate?
[/quote]

Correct, it does not mix with water. Thats why the vodka is used. It makes the clove oil more soluable in water. Normally this is a knock out method and then the fish is terminated by another means. A overdose of clove oil will kill them in itself but generally people will put the fish in the freezer once its knocked out to ensure death.


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

PastorJeff said:


> If it were just part of the tail, he could grow that back, but if it is down to the bone, that won't come back.
> 
> It's time for the freezer. Put him in a baggie and place him in the freezer until he is gone. It is the most humane way.
> 
> Sorry to hear about it.


yeah its so easy to get clarification out of that statement. Boiling water is just as humane as anything. The extreme temperature shock instantly shuts down their CNS but it does smell if you dont remove them before they get cooked. Now this wont work if you have a 14 inch rhom but for smaller fish it works.


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## Pimprn (Feb 3, 2006)

man just get a very sharp knife and behead it honestly the fish wont feel nothing !!!!! just make it quick.......i knwo its hard to do but u gotta do it...


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## cheguevara (Nov 3, 2006)

actually the most humane way possible it to add some kind of fish tranqulizer the put him in a bag of water and stick him in the freezer, that is the most humane


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

pimprn said:


> man just get a very sharp knife and behead it honestly the fish wont feel nothing !!!!! just make it quick.......i knwo its hard to do but u gotta do it...


not true, brain activity continues for another 45 seconds after you behead something. There is a complete list im trying to get pinned in the suggestion forum going over all the ways to euthenize a fish and how it should be done and how humane it is


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

thebluyak said:


> not true, brain activity continues for another 45 seconds after you behead something. There is a complete list im trying to get pinned in the suggestion forum going over all the ways to euthenize a fish and how it should be done and how humane it is


I hope your not talking about the one you got from the other website...cause that is off, and it is not approved or based on the suggestions from the AVMA.

Why would you support something that is not approved by the AVMA? They DO NOT support tossing your fish in boiling water.


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

PastorJeff said:


> not true, brain activity continues for another 45 seconds after you behead something. There is a complete list im trying to get pinned in the suggestion forum going over all the ways to euthenize a fish and how it should be done and how humane it is


I hope your not talking about the one you got from the other website...cause that is off, and it is not approved or based on the suggestions from the AVMA.

Why would you support something that is not approved by the AVMA? They DO NOT support tossing your fish in boiling water.
[/quote]

show me the link to the amva, you know what dont bother, I will ask tomorrow at work.

I guess they support making fish pops then huh?


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

show me the link to the amva, you know what dont bother, I will ask tomorrow at work.

I guess they support making fish pops then huh?
[/quote]
For your information, yes they do. Here is the quote to shut you up...



> Quick freezing of deeply anesthetized animals is acceptable


Now here is the entire link so you can become educated rather than spouting off some internet crap you found. And for your information it is called the AVMA....not the AMVA...American Veteranary Medical Association.

Current AVMA Euthanasia Report - 2000

You need to be very careful about giving bad information. This is an issue that I take very seriously. I am always amazed when people come here on this site spouting crap they know nothing about. Read the report and tell me where you find anything about tossing your tropical fish in boiling water.


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

yeah freezing anesthetized fish is ok, you said STICK HIM IN A BAG and put him in the freezer. Spouting crap I know nothing about? So yeah I guess that site with the pinned topic is crap, did you even read the whole list? It goes over everything

Cooling-It has been suggested that, when using
physical methods of euthanasia in ectothermic species,
cooling to 4 C will decrease metabolism and facilitate
handling, *but there is no evidence that whole body
cooling reduces pain or is clinically efficacious*.206 Local
cooling in frogs does reduce nociception, and this may
be partly opioid mediated. 207 Immobilization of reptiles
by cooling is considered inappropriate and inhumane
even if combined with other physical or chemical
methods of euthanasia. Snakes and turtles, immobilized
by cooling, have been killed by subsequent freezing.
This method is not recommended.13 Formation of
ice crystals on the skin and in tissues of an animal may
cause pain or distress. *Quick freezing of deeply anesthetized
animals is acceptable.*

so maybe you shouldnt give out bad advice, stick him in a bag and put him in the freezer does not count as deeply anesthetrized

maybe you should read this

http://aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=76451


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Ok my little friend...let's give you a short lesson in freezers.

First, lets look at the AVMA's recommendation...it is not acceptable to "freeze" a fish to a temp of 4 degrees celcius (which is about 39 degrees fahrenheit - water freezes below 32 degrees fahrenheit). This does nothing other than cause burn on the poor fish...which can cause pain.

Now the question you have to ask (rather than make ignorant comments) is...what is the temperature of an average freezer? Hmmm...it is -18 degrees celcius (which is about 0 degrees fahrenheit - 32 degrees below the level that water freezes).

So your ignorant comments you posted do not hold. It is quick freezing. It causes any tropical fish to go into shock, inducing what we as humans would call "sleep" and the fish does not feel a thing.

I am not sure why you keep arguing this topic. I have provided every thing you asked...you obviously do not have your facts straight when it comes to the freezing of a fish, nor do you understand proper temperatures.

By the way...where in the report was the ol' toss them in boiling water technique from? I trust the AVMA much more than your advice.

Hope you learned something...this way you can help someone properly euthanize their fish. Clove is best, but when that is not avaliable, freezing is next, and accepted by the AVMA.


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

Hope ive learned something? What that sticking a fish in a freezer does not quickly kill it? Yeah then sure, so if the avma doesnt say anything about boiling then I guess we should freeze lobsters before we cook them right? cause thats how they are killed, by boiling. Lets think, either drop it in boiling water and its instantly over or stick it in the freezer and let it die in 10 minutes. Your choice, im done arguing with it but just sticking a fish in a bucket of water and placing it in the freezer is going to be slow.

Dont bother replying we are done arguing about it, you posted your link, i posted mine people can choose for themself


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## Devon Amazon (Apr 3, 2005)

Clove oil!

Its more humane than freezing, and certainly more humane than boiling!


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