# WHY are my new Piranha's Dying!



## Gerrad

Hey guy's,
I am having trouble with my ph, alk, and hardness of my water. This is my current water parameter's as of today. The tank is fairly new, it's been running for alittle over 2 month's. Used convict's and silver mollies to cycle the tank. I don't even know if the tank is cycled!
ammonia .5 (stress) I think a simple water change would help
PH 8.0-8.4 (on my water test kit, red mean's 8.4, my pad on the stick, is hot pink sometime's and red sometime's) How do I lower the PH? With out using a machine?
I have driftwood soaking now, no live plant's
alk 300 high above ideal range 120-180
chl 0
hardness 150 hard
nitrite 0
nitrate 20 ppm safe
I'm using a xp3 rena filastar canister filter. Never used a canister before, alway's used hob's. At, first I bought all the extra's, rena say's to buy for the canister. Ex. carbon, nitra zorb, and some other stuff. I was told from other user's of this product, that all I need is the filter pad's, and the ceramic cylinder's and star's (house's for the bacteria) in the canister. So, that's what I have in it now. I still have my hob's, I'm thinking about getting those up and running. 
So, how do I lower my PH,Alk, hardness? I just bought 20 baby caribe from G (SA), and my first 3 are dying (dry looking skin, on the floor having trouble getting up, turning on side, can't swim without sinking.) 1 is swimming in place at top and seem's ok, another one, was eaten. I have 15 in my 10g, where I acclimated them all, and there fine. Active and alive and swimming , every now and then. I'm afraid to put them in my tank.
I just wrote G, today. I'm going to see if I can ship back the 15 caribe, and get my money. I'll eat the 5 that are dead , about to be dead or struggling to stay alive. 
I'm not sure how to get my number's correct. Cichlid's and silver mollies do well in the tank, but I didn't buy a 120g w/stand,for them, lol. 
Help! TY Gerrad


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## FEEFA

Sorry to hear about your situation Gerrad but you really should have made sure everything was ok before you got the cariba's since your first rhom died.

My opinion your ph is the problem, sounds like you're using test strips to test though.
You dont really get accurate readings with those things you should pick up an API masster kit, much more accurate and in your case sounds like you need it.

Are you adding anything else to the tank treatment wise? Buffers extracts etc?

Are your fish struggling to breath, going to the surface for air?

Also test your tapwater ph


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## Trigga

Put peat moss in your filter.. It will stain the water a tea colour but lower the ph to something more piranha friendly...


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## Piranha Guru

The pH alone isn't the problem...your alkalinity (kH) is high enough to prevent pH swings which causes more problems than a pH that isn't ideal. The issue is your ammonia....ammonia is much more toxic at a higher pH, so an ammonia level of .5 at a pH of 8.4 is worse than at 7.4 and way worse than at 6.4. Get your ammonia under control as you will always have a high pH unless you make your own RO/DI water. Peat will help soften the water, but won't do much to the pH with a kH that high. Adding baking soda, acid, or other chemicals will only cause it to drop and then rebound later. Wild caught fish can be more sensitive to pH levels...you may be better off getting captive bred reds from an area with similar water as yours.


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## readingbabelfish

I have a high ph in my tank also, around 8.0, 8.2. I work in a wastewater treatment plant and used the ph meter there so mine is as accurate as you can get. My p's are fine... Did you add all your fish to your main tank at once? I would not recommend messing with the ph at all, my main concern would be why there is ammonia in the tank. Is there an overfeeding problem perhaps? Do you have enough filtration for your tank? I would look for possible causes for ammonia to be present before doing anything with ph at all.


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## Gerrad

Feefa said:


> Sorry to hear about your situation Gerrad but you really should have made sure everything was ok before you got the cariba's since your first rhom died.
> 
> My opinion your ph is the problem, sounds like you're using test strips to test though.
> You dont really get accurate readings with those things you should pick up an API masster kit, much more accurate and in your case sounds like you need it.
> WHAT DOES THE API STAND FOR? CAN I BUY THAT AT PETSMART?
> 
> Are you adding anything else to the tank treatment wise? Buffers extracts etc? WHEN I DO WATER CHANGE'S, I USE STRESS COAT AND STRESS ZYME. I ALSO LATELY, HAVE BEEN USING "STABILITY" BY SEACHEM. HAS LIVE BACTERIA IN IT. TELL'S TO ADD SOME AT EVERY WATER CHANGE, OR WHEN ADDING NEW FISH
> 
> Are your fish struggling to breath, going to the surface for air? NO NOT REALLY. FOR ONE, THEY CAN'T GET TO IT TO DO THAT.
> 
> Also test your tapwater ph


I tested the tap and result's were similar. I had added 4 caribe to the tank. 2 are gone. and 2 are actually seem to be ok. one, never had trouble, he's swimming tank length, now and then. Or he'll hang out in place, middle top and never the sand. The fourth one, i just discovered that he was hiding behind my circular bubbler (i have it up and leaning against a tank wall). He come's out , now and then. Get's chased by the other caribe.
Even if i did ship the 15 back, I don't know how to sedate them, so they'll make it to nj?


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## Gerrad

well, interesting my ammonia is a concern? I figure a water change will help. I've only had con's and silver mollies in my tank, that lived and ate. Had a xingu for a day, before croaking. I never feed large amount's of food. I know to clean up any uneaten food. I feed the con's and mollies, hikari pellet's and flake food. 
Now,that I've switched to sand. I've noticed the poop and what ever debris, will hang on the top of sand. And, some debri will float around the tank. 
I'm thinking that my canister is not able to do the job by itself. I'm thinking about getting my penguin 330 and emperor 400 up and running. I had those and a topfin 60, running in my 55g (had oscar's). Right now, these hob's are without media, got rid of them since I wasn't using them. Had some worm's in the media too. Yuck!
How do I lower the ALK? then? Ammonia?


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## Piranha Guru

Gerrad said:


> well, interesting my ammonia is a concern? I figure a water change will help. I've only had con's and silver mollies in my tank, that lived and ate. Had a xingu for a day, before croaking. I never feed large amount's of food. I know to clean up any uneaten food. I feed the con's and mollies, hikari pellet's and flake food.
> Now,that I've switched to sand. I've noticed the poop and what ever debris, will hang on the top of sand. And, some debri will float around the tank.
> I'm thinking that my canister is not able to do the job by itself. I'm thinking about getting my penguin 330 and emperor 400 up and running. I had those and a topfin 60, running in my 55g (had oscar's). Right now, these hob's are without media, got rid of them since I wasn't using them. Had some worm's in the media too. Yuck!
> How do I lower the ALK? then? Ammonia?


When did you switch to sand (what kind of sand is it)? How long has the XP3 been up and running? What size of tank? The bioload of that many baby caribe would take a lot of mollies and covicts to replicate. Have you had anything in there since the rhom? What are the parameters on your acclimation tank? What are the parameters of your tap water?

Don't touch the alkalinity...even though your pH is high, it will keep it from fluctuating. You need water changes to get your ammonia down and since I'm betting your tapwater is the same pH/alk as your tank, that will cause a pH spike if you screw with the alkalinity causing additional stress. Take care of the ammonia with partial water changes and add some aquarium salt for stress...you can also add a biobooster to help give your biofilter a kick.


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## Gerrad

Piranha TeAcH said:


> well, interesting my ammonia is a concern? I figure a water change will help. I've only had con's and silver mollies in my tank, that lived and ate. Had a xingu for a day, before croaking. I never feed large amount's of food. I know to clean up any uneaten food. I feed the con's and mollies, hikari pellet's and flake food.
> Now,that I've switched to sand. I've noticed the poop and what ever debris, will hang on the top of sand. And, some debri will float around the tank.
> I'm thinking that my canister is not able to do the job by itself. I'm thinking about getting my penguin 330 and emperor 400 up and running. I had those and a topfin 60, running in my 55g (had oscar's). Right now, these hob's are without media, got rid of them since I wasn't using them. Had some worm's in the media too. Yuck!
> How do I lower the ALK? then? Ammonia?


When did you switch to sand (what kind of sand is it)? I SWITCHED TO TAHITIAN MOON SAND, I WOULD SAY 3 WEEK'S AGO. How long has the XP3 been up and running? IT'S BEEN RUNNING FOR 2 MONTH'S AND 12 DAY'S. What size of tank? 120G The bioload of that many baby caribe would take a lot of mollies and covicts to replicate. Have you had anything in there since the rhom? YEA, HAD A JAGUAR CICHLID IN, NO PROBLEM'S WITH HIM, HE WAS VERY ACTIVE, MORE THAN WHEN HE WAS AT THE LFS. What are the parameters on your acclimation tank? PH 6.8,NITRATE 20PPM,NITRITE 0,HARDNESS 150 HARD WATER, ALK WAS OK I THINK, DON'T REMEMBER. What are the parameters of your tap water? YOU KNOW, I DID THAT TEST AND THE RESULT'S WERE THE SAME. I DON'T REMEMBER IF I TESTED FILTEERED WATER. I HAVE A PURIFER ON THE KITCHEN FAUCET.

Don't touch the alkalinity...even though your pH is high, it will keep it from fluctuating. You need water changes to get your ammonia down and since I'm betting your tapwater is the same pH/alk as your tank, that will cause a pH spike if you screw with the alkalinity causing additional stress. Take care of the ammonia with partial water changes and add some aquarium salt for stress...SALT IS GOOD, BUT I THINK I'M GOOD THERE. you can also add a biobooster to help give your biofilter a kick. TRUE, BUT I READ ON THE NET, THAT THE AUTHOR SUGGEST'S I SHOULDN'T USE THAT STUFF. SAY'S THE LIVE BACTERIA DIE'S ONCE IT HIT'S AIR OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO, HE BASICALLY SAID, THAT WHEN YOUR PUTTING BOOSTER IN THE TANK, YOU PUTTING IN ALREADY DEAD BACTERIA. WHO KNOW'S.
[/quote]
I tried to put the majority of my baby caribe in today. I had 20 since sat, and now I have 10. 2-3 of them had chunk's taking out of them, while alive. most of them, struggled in my water and eventually found a spot. Tipped over and never moved again. Or they would be belly up, but all the time, either way they were. You could see there gill's moving. I eventually just scooped them up, dead or about to be dead. 
Good new's thou, I have 7 of them swimming around normally (lol, don't know if that's a word). 3 are still in the 10g acclimate tank, taking thing's slow. Alot of them have the dry patch looking spot's on there skin. Kinda like someone dapped acid on different part's of them. They don't seem to mind or should I say, it doesn't seem to bother there behavior or aggression. All of that is still there. It's funny, out of the first 4 that I put in the tank. 2 died and the 2 left over have partnered up. They attack or chase other caribe, together. lol 
Man, these 2 specific caribe I have, (teammate's) found 2 dying caribe, that were laying on there side, in one corner of the tank. The smaller one, came up to one of the dying caribe, and started to eat him! The larger teammate joined in , and they both started to rip open this p. Sick! And, when they finally stopped chopping, the mangled caribe started to swim still. 
Oh, well that's p's for ya. We'll see if I still have caribe in the morning. lol


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## FEEFA

[[/quote]
I tried to put the majority of my baby caribe in today. I had 20 since sat, and now I have 10. 2-3 of them had chunk's taking out of them, while alive. most of them, struggled in my water and eventually found a spot. Tipped over and never moved again. Or they would be belly up, but all the time, either way they were. You could see there gill's moving. I eventually just scooped them up, dead or about to be dead. 
Good new's thou, I have 7 of them swimming around normally (lol, don't know if that's a word). 3 are still in the 10g acclimate tank, taking thing's slow. Alot of them have the dry patch looking spot's on there skin. Kinda like someone dapped acid on different part's of them. They don't seem to mind or should I say, it doesn't seem to bother there behavior or aggression. All of that is still there. It's funny, out of the first 4 that I put in the tank. 2 died and the 2 left over have partnered up. They attack or chase other caribe, together. lol 
Man, these 2 specific caribe I have, (teammate's) found 2 dying caribe, that were laying on there side, in one corner of the tank. The smaller one, came up to one of the dying caribe, and started to eat him! The larger teammate joined in , and they both started to rip open this p. Sick! And, when they finally stopped chopping, the mangled caribe started to swim still. 
Oh, well that's p's for ya. We'll see if I still have caribe in the morning. lol
[/quote]

Did you acclimate them before you put them in?
Are you doing anything to fix your ammo problem.

Have you cleaned your filters recently? If so how did you do it?

The problem isnt going to go away on its own and must be addressed especially if you are still having fish die on you?????????????


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## boiler149

sry to hear about your loss


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## Gerrad

well, so far I have 9 baby caribe left. There doing pretty good I would say. They look a bit, beat up. But, that doesn't stop there appetite. They eat right in front of me, no problem(with the light's on). These are the tougher one's out of the batch, I guess. They all swim normal, chase each other around. Pick stupid little fight's, then there all friend's again, and follow each other around the tank. 
I do admit, that I should of waited longer,till I bought them. I didn't have any problem's, when I had my blk mask elong in my 55g. I was using 3 hob's, and to be fair. They had been running for like 3 yr's. My canister has been running, for 2 month's. 
Even thou it's only been a day,really. My caribe, are not skittish. When I turn on the light, they don't bolt around the tank and bang there head's, like my rb's did. They just act like I'm not there. If I do a quick movement in front of the tank, they will step back a sec, but then shrug it off. Very minor nervousness, so far.


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## FEEFA

I'd throw at least one of your hobs on there for added filtration, your biggest one ofcourse


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## Gerrad

Yea, I'll probably add a hob or 2. I'll have to buy brand new media. The hob will have to cycle. Did a water change today. Maybe I need to do, 2 water change's a week? It's weird in the past, according to the test strip's. My ph, nitrite or nitrate would be a factor.


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## FEEFA

Since you have an ammo problem I think you should be doing small more frequent waterchanges say 20% every couple of days. That should level things out after a week or so.

Add the hob as soon as possible so it can begin to cycle.


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## Gerrad

I heard in the past from a guy at petsmart. Saying that I should never change out my media (white sponge pouch with carbon inside,topfin 60). Does that mean I shouldn't change out the sponge's in my emperor 400,too? What about the carbon do I change that , or leave it alone , too? The guy also said, never to change the spinning wheel's on my emperor, unless totally neccessary. What do you guy's think?


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## Piranha Guru

Gerrad said:


> I heard in the past from a guy at petsmart. Saying that I should never change out my media (white sponge pouch with carbon inside,topfin 60). Does that mean I shouldn't change out the sponge's in my emperor 400,too? What about the carbon do I change that , or leave it alone , too? The guy also said, never to change the spinning wheel's on my emperor, unless totally neccessary. What do you guy's think?


Never replace the biowheels...all you need to do is keep the pins clean. Rinse filter media as often as you like, and replace when needed. You can replace your Emp cartridges with no problems as long as the biowheels are cultured. I would alternate changing the Top Fin cartridges (especially if it is a primary filter) but with 3 filters, I would just service a different one each week. Carbon needs replaced every 2-3 weeks, but a healthy tank doesn't need carbon.


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## RhomZilla

Piranha TeAcH said:


> I heard in the past from a guy at petsmart. Saying that I should never change out my media (white sponge pouch with carbon inside,topfin 60). Does that mean I shouldn't change out the sponge's in my emperor 400,too? What about the carbon do I change that , or leave it alone , too? The guy also said, never to change the spinning wheel's on my emperor, unless totally neccessary. What do you guy's think?


Never replace the biowheels...all you need to do is keep the pins clean. Rinse filter media as often as you like, and replace when needed. You can replace your Emp cartridges with no problems as long as the biowheels are cultured. I would alternate changing the Top Fin cartridges (especially if it is a primary filter) but with 3 filters, I would just service a different one each week. Carbon needs replaced every 2-3 weeks, but a healthy tank doesn't need carbon.
[/quote]
Dont forget to try and rinse out/clean out with the current water from your fishtank. Water from tap can slightly kill these bacteria due to who-knows-what your local water company adds in to treat your water at home.


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## Piranha Dan

You're getting a reading for Nitrates, so that means your tank is cycled. I think the problem is you dumped more fish into the tank then the filter could handle, and had an ammonia spike. That, coupled with the fact that ammonia gets more toxic at higher ph's (thanks Piranha Teach for that interesting fact) is what's killing them.
Sounds to me like the problem is solving itself. The bacteria in your filter pigged out on all the excess ammonia and multiplied, bringing the cycle back into balance.


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## Gerrad

Yea, I did a little refresher on the net, about my hob's. Mainly researched on my penguin 330 and emperor 400. I'm going to start fresh with them both. New pad's, new bio wheel's, going to buy the black carbon and white diamond ammonia nuetrilizer(for emperor). I'll rinse the filter pad's in tank water, every few week's. I'll leave the bio wheel's, since I now know, that this is were the good bacteria, live's. 
I just cleaned up the 2 hob's tonight. Plan on buying the new replacement's tommorrow.


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