# UPDATED PICS**What the hell is wrong - Looks pale w/ holes etc.



## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

Well, I have not posted for a while.... but definitely been browsing and reading the board. AT this time I need some help. Here is the situation...

Last June, my biggest (1 of 9) RBP got torn up pretty bad and was close to death. The other 8 had pratically torn all his fins up and he was having difficulty swimming, thus making him the weakest one... so they were constantly picking on him. I transfered him into a hospital tank. After about 6 weeks he regenerated his fins back and I tried to put him back with the other 8. That did not work out well, as he freaked out and began floating etc. I decided that maybe it was not a good time to go back into the tank with the others, so I placed him back into the hospital tank.

In the past several weeks he acts very sick. No swift movements, very slow and at times at the top on the water. I associated this with maybe lack of oxygen, and bought an air pump with air stone to generate more oxygen into the water. I have also noticed him growing cysts on his head and gill area. He even has some kind of funky fungus white stuff growing on his back.. Here is what I can provide everyone and hope you have an opinion... (pics are provided below) Can provide more pics if needed!!!

**Water conditions - *

PH --------- 7.8
Nitrates----- 80
Nitrites------ 0.25
Ammonia--- 0.25
Temp-------- 81 degrees

**descriptions -* see above the illness desrciption. This has been going on for about 6 weeks and seems to be getting worst. Have treated tank with melafix.

**changes within the tank---* No changes in hospital tank

**recent history-* has no history of any problems or illnesses?

**age -* unsure, I adopted (saved) this fish from local fish store owner

**how long have you had the fish? -* approximately 1 year


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

somebody please help this fish!...what about salt? have you tryed it?


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## Morpheus (Feb 12, 2004)

That looks nasty, take a look at this website for diagnosing diseasesand treatment:

waterlfie disease diagnostics


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## odyssey (May 30, 2006)

dude that looks totally rough, ill do some research for ya. ill reply in a few mins!

ok, you said that he was having trouble breathing, this is what i can find for now...
"gill flukes: the flatworm DACTYLGYRUS (sp) attaches itself to the delicate gill membranes and head and causes an extremely obvious inflamation. affected fishes develop increased respiration and gaping gills......... these same flatworms can attach to the fish and burrow into the skin and give the appearance of a growth. fish stay near the surface, looses colour and become feeble . responds wel to treatment." (Guide to the tropical aquarium by dick mills) thats what i found that most suited this but it has nothing about treatment. good luck!


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

I have started treatment today of MARACYN-TWO. It is a five day process so I will continue to update SCARFACES (thats his name) progress. Can I use salt inconjunction to using maracyn-two? Or should I wait until this 5 day process is over?

Something else I failed to mention, he is not eating.. I have been tring to research as much as I can on his current state.. and I think "odyssey" hit the nail on the head.. gill disease.

Anyone else have an opinion.... would love to hear your thoughts..


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

bro, there is really high nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia in the tank.. you need to do a 50% water change right away, and keep doing them every week, or do 2 30% water changes (better) every week
Then you can deal with the fish's health. He needs a healthy environment, or he will not get strong enough to respond to the medications, IMO


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> bro, there is really high nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia in the tank.. you need to do a 50% water change right away, and keep doing them every week, or do 2 30% water changes (better) every week
> Then you can deal with the fish's health. He needs a healthy environment, or he will not get strong enough to respond to the medications, IMO


If I am correct, my Nitrates and Ammonia is under control!!! My Nitrites is a little high. Should be around 60 right? Anyway, I did a water change last night and plan to do another soon. As stated in the first post.. here are my water conditions--

PH --------- 7.8 
Nitrates----- 80
Nitrites------ 0.25
Ammonia--- 0.25
Temp-------- 81 degrees


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

NegativeCamber said:


> bro, there is really high nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia in the tank.. you need to do a 50% water change right away, and keep doing them every week, or do 2 30% water changes (better) every week
> Then you can deal with the fish's health. He needs a healthy environment, or he will not get strong enough to respond to the medications, IMO


*If I am correct, my Nitrates and Ammonia is under control!!! My Nitrites is a little high. Should be around 60 right?* Anyway, I did a water change last night and plan to do another soon. As stated in the first post.. here are my water conditions--

PH --------- 7.8 
Nitrates----- 80
Nitrites------ 0.25
Ammonia--- 0.25
Temp-------- 81 degrees
[/quote]

There should be no ammonia or nitrites in the water, only nitrates (20 to 40 ppm nitrates is OK)... so maybe you need more biomedia (filter media) to keep your water parameters OK... maybe you're overfeeding your Ps, maybe you're not removing leftovers (or vacuuming gravel properly), maybe you don't do weekly partial water changes...


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

Thanks for your reply Hannibal--

What I was trying to say...... I do not think my water parameters are so bad that it has caused this. I do understand exactly where they need to be and I am currently working diligently on that.

As far as over feeding.. removing leftover waste, and partial weekly water changes...
I hope this does not come off as being ungrateful etc.. but I am no nOOb at this. The fish I currently own 6 of the 9 I have had for over 2 years with NOT ONE serious problem (like this). The other 3 that I have (including SCARFACE) I was given to take care of by a local fish store owner. Basically I saved them. I do weekly water changes, watch water parameters closely, do not overfeed, and gravel vac on a weekly basis as well.

This fish in question did not get like this until I placed him in a hospital tank. This tank was cycled and was setup for over a year. I moved a Bichir from the hospital tank to put SCARFACE into this one. At that time I was treating him with Melafix for lesions and sraps etc suffered from the other 8. He was recovering great until about a week ago when I noticed this stuff on him.... Currently he does not look good and looks to have popeye too! Crap... it just might be his time.. but I am going to do everything I can to save him!

Hannibal, Dippy, Odyssey, and Morpheus, and redrum871 thanks for your opinions and time!! Anyone else?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

I think your water params are not helping your fish. 0 nitrItes, 0 ammonia, in between 0-40 TOPS nitrate. (20 is better)

Im just trying to be realistic, and help you.. hannibal is correct, doing those things will certainly help.
The waterchanges are a must. It won't hurt, unless you don't use chlorine remover. 
Once you get your water within better params, you will have a better chance of saving your fish
what size tank do you have your P's in. How many fish do you have? Overcrowding can cause bad water quality as well.
I hope that helps!


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## odyssey (May 30, 2006)

yer i agree the water is not he best . he is in a hospital tank on his own. i think salt will releave the stress of hight nitrites nitrates and ammonia. good luck . salt wouldnt hurt in conjunction with marcyn 2 . just do a waterchange first.


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

You can use salt with maracyn 2. Follow the salt article by DonH in the article section of the Information forum. Administering to 0.3% salinity. You also want to raise the temp to 86 degrees slowly (one degree per hour) I wish i could be of more help but I myself have never seen anything like this. You can PM DonH and hopefully he'll see it. It's an outside shot since he is only on once in a blue moon, but you never know.
The white stuff on the gills is mucus being excreted through the skin. This is exactly what happened with my Rhom when he had HITH disease but mine did not have the bumps or those black spots. not to be a dick but that is in its accelerated stage of whatever it is, and may prove fatal over the next few days. Hopefully you will have luck with treatment. It's just tough treating something you are not sure what exactly it is. hopefully DonH will get your PM in time. Good luck with treatment.


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

jerry_plakyda said:


> You can use salt with maracyn 2. Follow the salt article by DonH in the article section of the Information forum. Administering to 0.3% salinity. You also want to raise the temp to 86 degrees slowly (one degree per hour) I wish i could be of more help but I myself have never seen anything like this. You can PM DonH and hopefully he'll see it. It's an outside shot since he is only on once in a blue moon, but you never know.
> The white stuff on the gills is mucus being excreted through the skin. This is exactly what happened with my Rhom when he had HITH disease but mine did not have the bumps or those black spots. not to be a dick but that is in its accelerated stage of whatever it is, and may prove fatal over the next few days. Hopefully you will have luck with treatment. It's just tough treating something you are not sure what exactly it is. hopefully DonH will get your PM in time. Good luck with treatment.


Thanks Jerry...

I know DonH could give me some good advice... I tried pm'ing him several days ago... but got he following message--









"This message can not be sent because the recipient has their personal messenger disabled or their personal messenger inbox is full."

Thanks for your input... I am going to try my best to do what I can!!! Will keep everyone informed.


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## odyssey (May 30, 2006)

this is the article............. http://www.piranha-fury.com/information/article.php?id=13

good luck


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## black_piranha (Jan 12, 2006)

that is one nasty looking p!

my advice would be to listen to hannibal and the others. sorry


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

black_piranha said:


> that is one nasty looking p!
> 
> my advice would be to listen to hannibal and the others. sorry


listen to Hannibal's advice about the water conditions?? I have since gotten my water parameters to where they need to be.

Currently I am treating him with MARACYN (I think in the last post I said Maracyn-two- sorry I was wrong). Maracyn is for Columnaris "Body Fungus", Fin and Tail Rot, Popeye, and Gill Disease. I believe he has a bad case of gill disease and Columnaris. If he can live through this treatment, I believe he can pull through. I have also added salt to reduce the stress. Thanks again for your comment-

I will add new photos later tonight-


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

NegativeCamber said:


> Currently I am treating him with MARACYN (I think in the last post I said Maracyn-two- sorry I was wrong).


Hey NC, I am not sure if you know this but maracyn treats gram positive pathogens and maracyn 2 treats gram negative pathogens. 99% of the time it is gram negative pathogens that cause issues in piranha. That is why imo you should be using maracyn 2. If you do not see improvement after treatment and some time you may want to reconsider switching.


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

jerry_plakyda said:


> Currently I am treating him with MARACYN (I think in the last post I said Maracyn-two- sorry I was wrong).


Hey NC, I am not sure if you know this but maracyn treats gram positive pathogens and maracyn 2 treats gram negative pathogens. 99% of the time it is gram negative pathogens that cause issues in piranha. That is why imo you should be using maracyn 2. If you do not see improvement after treatment and some time you may want to reconsider switching.








[/quote]

thanks I didn't know that. I based treatment on that Maracyn treats Columnaris and Maracyn-two did not say anything about Columnaris (which I believe he has)

Thanks for the info... I will definitely watch for some sort of improvement signs etc.


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

*here is some updated photos... I am not sure if he is getting better or worse?







Anyway, I will continue treatment. Thanks again to those that were willing to give their opinions etc. I appreciate it!







*


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

Hi Benny...
The gills look like they have a bacterial infection. This is common with fish that have been bullied even if your water parameters are fine.

I'm also concerned about the "puffiness" of his dorsum. Do your other p's look this swollen? Kidney function could be impaired as a result of stress caused by the other fish. As a result, the fish can't evacuate fluids that build up within the body due to osmosis and look bloated.

It looks like you're on the right track by treating with Maracyn. Columnaris, even though it is a gram negative bacteria, is more effectively treated with erythromycin (Maracyn). If you increased your temp to 86, I suggest you slowly drop it down to a more comfortable temp (76-78). Since it looks like we are treating for a bacterial infection, there's no need to stress the fish any further and also lower the dissolved oxygen capacity of your quarantine tank.

Finish the cycle of Maracyn as directed by the label and I would follow up with a treatment of a wide spectrum antibiotic to treat any other possible secondary infections. I've always had luck with Kanacyn. I have brought back fish that were seemingly "goners" by using this method. Don't feed the fish while treating it. Chance are, it won't eat and you don't want to foul the water.

And lasty, water change, water change, water change... Be sure to do a couple of 20-30% water changes before continuing with a second cycle of antibiotics.

Good luck...


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

NegativeCamber said:


> The gills look like they have a bacterial infection. This is common with fish that have been bullied even if your water parameters are fine.


I forgot to mention that ammonia toxicity is directly proportional to pH and temperature. Since your pH is 7.8, an ammonia level of 0.25 mg/L could have contributed to your problems (although I don't think it was the main cause). I apologize for not looking at your numbers... I was diagnosing off the pics alone.


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

*







wow, something very strange is happening now... within the last 6 hours my hospital tank has become VERY VERY cloudy??? WTF? Is this normal with having several days worth of Maracyn in the tank? Currently I am on day 3-- with still two days left. He seems more agitated and stressed... take a look at the pics... Right now I am going to test the water parameters and post them in a about 10 minutes... here are the pics*


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

I just finished testing the water... it is as follows---

PH --------- 7.8
Nitrates----- 80
Nitrites------ 0
Ammonia--- 0.25
Temp-------- 81 degrees

Is the cloudyness due to the fish excreting waste? Where did the cloudyness all of a sudden come from?? The only differences in the water from the beginning is the Nitrites! It was 0.25 and now it is 0. I did several water changes before I started treatment to help the parameters.. I guess it did not help out too much.

So what now? Do I do a water change now and start the meds all over again? or do I continue with the next 2 days of medication and then water change? It looks horrible and the funny thing is, it just all of a sudden happened and I do not know why. Help-


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## JustJoshinYa (Mar 25, 2006)

This has happened to me once i went to sleep and the water was crystal clear, and when i woke up the water was very cloudy like that and it was in between feedings, and didnt affect my water parameters i never could figure out what happened or why, *IMO (i have never used maracyn and dont know if this is one of its effects or causes)* i would do a water change because that cant be good, also i wouldnt start the medication over i would just continue the medication process taking into consideration for the water change,*IMO* maybe treat the water you are using for the water change with the *appropriate* amount of maracyn?

-Josh


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## odyssey (May 30, 2006)

JustJoshinYa said:


> This has happened to me once i went to sleep and the water was crystal clear, and when i woke up the water was very cloudy like that and it was in between feedings, and didnt affect my water parameters i never could figure out what happened or why, *IMO (i have never used maracyn and dont know if this is one of its effects or causes)* i would do a water change because that cant be good, also i wouldnt start the medication over i would just continue the medication process taking into consideration for the water change,*IMO* maybe treat the water you are using for the water change with the *appropriate* amount of maracyn?
> 
> -Josh


i agree, like josh i havnt used marcyn either but it cant make it worse can it?


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

I have used maracyn and it does make your water cloudy. I wouldnt be to concerned about the water. I would be farm more worried about the concentrations of ammonia and nitrates. 80ppm is imo sky high... I would go ahead and do a water change to cut the ammonia and nitrates levels. You do know that its important to have the hospital tank cycled? If your worried about keeping an active amonia source... what I do is have a small ac20 on one of my large tanks and whenever I need to setup the hospital tank I always have the filter cycled and ready for action. Water parameters are just as important as medication when it comes to sick fish.


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Since your hospital tank has registered some ammonia and nitrites i have to believe some form of nitrifying bacteria bloom is occurring. If not than it's the maracyn. Hey Donnie, is that indeed columnaris ??? This topic will eventually go to the "Saved Topics". Thanks for chiming in.


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

*







This is a sad day.... SCARFACE was dying...and I could not watch any longer. This is the first time that I have EVER lost a rbp.

Let me take you back to this morning... He was fine when I woke up. The tank even cleared up. I was happy... he was showing signs of improvement. I then decided to watch the Texas / North Texas football game. After the game I decided it was time to put in the 4th day of medication. When I went into the room, he was floating as you can see in the photos below. Looking closely, I noticed he was still alive but barely... just basically floating around the aquarium. I then decided he would not make it through the rest of the day. I stuck him in a zip-lock-freezer container and put him in the freezer. It was not difficult getting him out and putting him in the container. (ie.- not flopping around, rapidly trying to get away etc.) By the fishes behavior, I concluded I had did the right thing. It truely is a sad day...*

















*







SCARFACE*


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## Round Head (Sep 26, 2005)

Sorry about your lost.
You're not alone with this mysterious disease.
I lost 10 young RB from this nasty stuff.
I've tried everything but there was no cure.
I'll tell you one thing though, this disease is not contageous and that is a good thing.


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

im sorry to hear that. But for future reference its hard to put fish in the freezor they dont die right away. Boil water as hot as you can get it and put the fish in there ONCE its boiling hot and it will kill it instantly, no pain or suffering but it does smell bad.

Im really sorry : (


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

thebluyak said:


> im sorry to hear that. But for future reference its hard to put fish in the freezor they dont die right away. Boil water as hot as you can get it and put the fish in there ONCE its boiling hot and it will kill it instantly, no pain or suffering but it does smell bad.
> 
> Im really sorry : (


thanks for your input. However, he was close to death anyway. Look, when I took him out of the aquarium, he did not fight or anything.. on flopping, moving etc. He was still breathing though.. IMO I don't think putting him in the freezer was wrong. I was not going to boil him...







asides, do not think my wife would have gone for that.


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

NegativeCamber said:


> im sorry to hear that. But for future reference its hard to put fish in the freezor they dont die right away. Boil water as hot as you can get it and put the fish in there ONCE its boiling hot and it will kill it instantly, no pain or suffering but it does smell bad.
> 
> Im really sorry : (


thanks for your input. However, he was close to death anyway. Look, when I took him out of the aquarium, he did not fight or anything.. on flopping, moving etc. He was still breathing though.. IMO I don't think putting him in the freezer was wrong. I was not going to boil him...







asides, do not think my wife would have gone for that.
[/quote]

yeah I dont blame you, I had to put my angelfish down and it was hard, i actually cried a little over it. People think its "just a fish" but its really not, it becomes a part of who you are so I feel totally for you. But now you have an opening to get another but id wait till you make sure A. this didnt spread or B. what it is so if it did spread you can atleast get rid of it. That P looked nasty before he died, ive never seen anything like it before.

best regards,
Ryan


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

wish could have done more......SAM


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

well, scarface was only 1 of my shoal of 9. So I still have 8 left. I think I mentioned this before, but he got this disease only after being in the hospital tank. He was originally placed in there because of wounds suffered by the other 8 rbp's. The hospital tank was already set up and was in function for over 2 years so it was not like I just set it up for him to go in as an emergency. (basically the tank was completely cycled). I had moved 2 bichirs from this tank into another one so scarface could have the bigger tank.

Not really sure exactly how he developed this but my guess is a combination of stress and water conditions.







Thanks again everyone and I do hope this sets as a guide to anyone who might have a piranha that experiences this disease "Columnaris / Gill Disase"


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## Morpheus (Feb 12, 2004)

Sorry to hear about that. I had to put one of mine down last week too. He had been ill for a while, Nitrite poisoning I think, and the others attacked him and bit a big chunk off him , he was floating sideways too so I did exactly the same thing, took him out and put him in the freezer.

It truly sucks.


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## odyssey (May 30, 2006)

sorry for your loss man. but atleast you can say you did everytthing you could for him. R.I.P


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

srry to hear about that


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## black_piranha (Jan 12, 2006)

RIP.

sorry to hear.


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Damn, i was really rooting for this guy. Any info you care to share about water params in tank when he was removed.


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

jerry_plakyda said:


> Damn, i was really rooting for this guy. Any info you care to share about water params in tank when he was removed.


When I removed him from the tank, I tested the water... it was the following--

*PH --------- 7.8
Nitrates----- 40
Nitrites------ 0
Ammonia--- 0.25
Temp-------- 81 degrees*

I did get my nitrates down but my ammonia level was still 0.25. I wish he would have pulled through... he was my largest (photo attached) and had a great personality. However, he was ALWAYS the one they picked on... Thanks again everyone for the help and kind words!


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## LouDiB (May 22, 2006)

was "he" a male or female?


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## NeXuS (Aug 16, 2006)

well idk what was wrogn with him but, how long r u going to keep him frozen?


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

Louie D said:


> well idk what was wrogn with him but, how long r u going to keep him frozen?


Scarface has a bad case of gill disease and Columnaris "Body Fungus".









Not sure how long I will keep him frozen. My 4-year old daugther wanted to bury him in the back yard, put a large stone on top of the grave so something wont dig it up. (she has a great imagination) LOL


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