# Bites on my shoal of 2" P's



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

I bought 15, 1- 1.5" P's for my 135. They were doing fine until they got to be around 2"s in size. First they took out 2 of the shoal, then today, I noticed 2 of them have big bites on the top of their heads. Is it from having too many of them in the tank? I was told the bigger the shoal, the calmer the fish will be. Any input would be great.


----------



## SeedlessOne (Nov 21, 2006)

The bigger the shoal does not mean more calm fish. 15 is too much for your size tank. Most people will tell you that your tank is good for 6-7 pygos for life. I however believe that if you stay on top of your tank, there is no reason you cant have 10 pygos in a 125g. (Any Flamers) And yeah you are seeing bites on you Ps due to overcrowding. It happens. Are you keeping those guys well feed. 2-3 times a day? What is your diet. What is the temp of your tank? Do you have plenty of hidding spaces for you Ps. I would think about getting rid of 3-4 of those guys, if I was in your shoes.


----------



## Restricted- (Aug 21, 2008)

Yeah, how much are you feeding, with a shoal people usually get more than they want and just let nature take its cousrse. There is alot more of a chance of loses when they are young.


----------



## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

15 is NOT to many for a 135g tank at 2''. 15 is NOT to many at 5''. You may need to change the foods and feed more and mess with the decor. You shouldn't have any serious bites like that.


----------



## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

my guess is your feeding them one large piece of food most likely and when they all dive in to take a bite they are accidently taking bites out of each other. try feeding them pieces that are small enough to fit into their mouth so they dont have to bite into one piece. if this is not the reason for the bites then it is aggression related which calls for a different remedy. good luck i had the same problem once or twice but its ok because they heal pretty well.


----------



## SeedlessOne (Nov 21, 2006)

Malawi- said:


> 15 is NOT to many for a 135g tank at 2''. 15 is NOT to many at 5''. You may need to change the foods and feed more and mess with the decor. You shouldn't have any serious bites like that.


Hopefully I wasnt confusing...I was speaking in terms for life.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

SeedlessOne said:


> 15 is NOT to many for a 135g tank at 2''. 15 is NOT to many at 5''. You may need to change the foods and feed more and mess with the decor. You shouldn't have any serious bites like that.


Hopefully I wasnt confusing...I was speaking in terms for life.
[/quote]
Thanks....I've been feeding them beefheart, chicken, and steak. They don't touch the flake food, or any vegetable matter at all. I feed them twice a day, sometimes 3 times. They don't seem to be real eager eaters, like the adult ones I had in the past, and the bites and casualties show up in the morning, after the lights have been out for the night. I have lots of plants, driftwood, and hiding places. The temp is like 80 degs F. Here is a small vid of the fish and tank.

http://s15.photobucket.com/player.swf?file...p;os=1&ap=1


----------



## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

try turning the temp down to 78 and see if that curves aggression. you really need to cut down on the red meat. stick to cichlid pellets, shrimp, and white flesh fish.


----------



## SeedlessOne (Nov 21, 2006)

AS fan said:


> try turning the temp down to 78 and see if that curves aggression. you really need to cut down on the red meat. stick to cichlid pellets, shrimp, and white flesh fish.


^^^^^Good advice for you...bio gold as a staple diet can grow some monsters!! Look at hateraid Ps, feeds bio gold as a staple diet and has some tank busters!! You can price match it at petsmart and get it for 9bucks a bag vs 20bucks. Fish look good in the vid though, I probably wouldnt stress it much at all.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

I've tried cichid pellets too. They won't touch them. Do they need to be small sized pellets? They one's I have are medium.


----------



## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

SeedlessOne said:


> 15 is NOT to many for a 135g tank at 2''. 15 is NOT to many at 5''. You may need to change the foods and feed more and mess with the decor. You shouldn't have any serious bites like that.


Hopefully I wasnt confusing...I was speaking in terms for life.
[/quote]
Thanks....I've been feeding them beefheart, chicken, and steak. They don't touch the flake food, or any vegetable matter at all. I feed them twice a day, sometimes 3 times. They don't seem to be real eager eaters, like the adult ones I had in the past, and the bites and casualties show up in the morning, after the lights have been out for the night. I have lots of plants, driftwood, and hiding places. The temp is like 80 degs F. Here is a small vid of the fish and tank.

http://s15.photobucket.com/player.swf?file...p;os=1&ap=1
[/quote]

The food wont effect if they bite or fight, but just feed white meat.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

what are some good examples of white meat?


----------



## SeedlessOne (Nov 21, 2006)

tilapia,smelt,catfish...


----------



## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

tilapia, smelt, catfish, scallops, shrimp, dovey, muscles, there are lots.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

Also....do you know if a pleco can be added, to clean up some of the food left behind?


----------



## Dasmopar (Jan 22, 2005)

Hey Blue Flame! Welcome to the forums!









Looks like my info matches up with most of the comments on here so far. For those of you who don't know Blue he has some of the nicest fish around MI and one of the nicest fish rooms I have ever been in. He is no Newb! Wanna hear a good story? Ask him why his fish room is a fish room now and not a snake room.


----------



## SeedlessOne (Nov 21, 2006)

Blue flame said:


> Also....do you know if a pleco can be added, to clean up some of the food left behind?


Good luck with that. Some people have luck. Ive tried serveral plecos with no luck.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

SeedlessOne said:


> Hey Blue Flame! Welcome to the forums!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Das.....I added more hidding places, plants, ect. They still don't seem to be touching any pelleted food though. It would be nice if they did. I wonder if they were always fed some sort of meat from the begining? If so, I hope they will catch on to pellets soon.


----------



## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Good luck, keep us posted.


----------



## Dasmopar (Jan 22, 2005)

Blue you need to get a pacu to show them the way to eat pellets!!! I think Red bellies are a jelous species and once they see someone else eating something they got have it too.


----------



## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

offer pellets until they eat them. they wont starve themselves. the size of the pellet never mattered to my fish even at a inch. just dont toss a lot of pellets in at one time until they get used to eating them. it may take a few days but just stay to the plan and they will eat them. remove any uneaten food after about 5 mins. and then just try again later that day or the next day.


----------



## SeedlessOne (Nov 21, 2006)

^^^exactly what I was going to post. They will soon take to the pellets. A 85-90% of a Ps diet should be pellets IMO.


----------



## Dasmopar (Jan 22, 2005)

So you think starving a shoal of p's that seem to be a bunch of canabals is good idea? I don't.


----------



## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

they will either eat each other or not if they are eating each other something else is likely wrong aside from hunger since they refuse to eat as it is.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

Thanks guys for the info. I held out on feeding them any meat, and kept introducing the pellets. After a few more nips to the fins, they are eagerly eating the cichlid pellets. I feel a lot better now









thanks again,
Blue


----------



## SeedlessOne (Nov 21, 2006)

Dasmopar said:


> So you think starving a shoal of p's that seem to be a bunch of canabals is good idea? I don't.\


If you want to train them to eat pellets....yeah I do. And all shoals of Ps are going to fin nip.


----------



## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

Blue flame said:


> Thanks guys for the info. I held out on feeding them any meat, and kept introducing the pellets. After a few more nips to the fins, they are eagerly eating the cichlid pellets. I feel a lot better now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


im glad it worked for you now let the color pop on those bad boys


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

SeedlessOne said:


> Also....do you know if a pleco can be added, to clean up some of the food left behind?


Good luck with that. Some people have luck. Ive tried serveral plecos with no luck.
[/quote]
So far, they've been leaving the pleco alone. I see him out cleaning up the tank, and they don't give him a second look. I'm sure that will change when the P's get some size to them.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

They seem to like smelt.....lol


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

I just thought I'd leave an update. My P's are eating the pellets fine now. They devour all that I toss in. Even though I've been sticking to pellets, and some chopped smelt a few times, I still have one that likes to nip the others. I've noticed their fins aren't getting hit at all, but a few have a small bite on their backs, just in front of the dorsal fin. Maybe it's a behavior common with shoals.......IDK

Blue


----------



## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

any two P's or more in a tank will nip at each other some especially when that small in a few months they will grow out of it. for now you can isolate the aggresive one and see if the nipping stops.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

AS fan said:


> any two P's or more in a tank will nip at each other some especially when that small in a few months they will grow out of it. for now you can isolate the aggresive one and see if the nipping stops.


That will be a little hard to do. It only narrows it down to 13 others, cause the little monster is doing when no one is around. lol


----------



## Dasmopar (Jan 22, 2005)

12 dividers and 48 suction cups on order.


----------



## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

Blue flame said:


> Maybe it's a behavior common with shoals.......IDK
> Blue


Totally normal behavior for Reds. Mine chew on each other all the time even when I feed heavy. From your avatar I'd say you've got a nice fish room going there.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

Piranha Dan said:


> Maybe it's a behavior common with shoals.......IDK
> Blue


Totally normal behavior for Reds. Mine chew on each other all the time even when I feed heavy. From your avatar I'd say you've got a nice fish room going there.
[/quote]
Thanks, Here's the thread I posted about it.

http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?showtopic=178818


----------



## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

My shoal does not nip at all. They are around 2.5'' give or take. Its all about how you arrange your tank, water temp, and food. Nipped fins is normally caused by the hobbyist due to lack of one of those 3 factors.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

Malawi- said:


> My shoal does not nip at all. They are around 2.5'' give or take. Its all about how you arrange your tank, water temp, and food. Nipped fins is normally caused by the hobbyist due to lack of one of those 3 factors.


well.....I lowered the temp to 78F, added a lot more plants and hiding places, and switched to cichlid pellets like everyone suggested. I think I've just got a mean one is all. The fin nipping has stopped. I have one that likes to take a bit on their backs between the head and dorsal fin sometimes.


----------



## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

Malawi- said:


> My shoal does not nip at all. They are around 2.5'' give or take. Its all about how you arrange your tank, water temp, and food. Nipped fins is normally caused by the hobbyist due to lack of one of those 3 factors.


you my friend are a exception to the rule. everyone i know and my personal experience as well says that when P's are smaller they nip at each other no matter how perfect the conditions are. just count yourself as lucky.


----------



## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

AS fan said:


> My shoal does not nip at all. They are around 2.5'' give or take. Its all about how you arrange your tank, water temp, and food. Nipped fins is normally caused by the hobbyist due to lack of one of those 3 factors.


you my friend are a exception to the rule. everyone i know and my personal experience as well says that when P's are smaller they nip at each other no matter how perfect the conditions are. just count yourself as lucky.
[/quote]

Of course juvie reds nip at each other, its in their nature. I am not lucky, its all about the tank and fish. Its quite easy to reduce nipping/fighting if you really want to. Smaller they are the more they nip at each other for several different reasons. As for nipping "no matter what" thats not 100% true-but everyone has their experience, just some are typical behaviors newer hobbyist see compared to the experienced ones.

Good to hear you added some stuff to the tank and the nipping has stoped, keep their stomachs bulging untl they reach about 3''.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

I witnessed some biting going on today. I had some clay pots in the tank for added hiding places, but it looked like they were fighting over them, so I took them back out.

What is the best way to set up a tank of small P's? Like 2 - 3" P's?


----------



## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Keeping it simpe so they can't create teritories over something different. Some plants, wood.. Keeping it natural and spaced out. Or you can completely fill the tank with natural decor look-its up to you.


----------



## Dasmopar (Jan 22, 2005)

or










I say let em sort it out on their own. Everytime you move things around they are re-establishing territories and thus fighting or nipping even more so.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

True......but the new setup up lets the fish that is taking a beating have a way out. The clay pot on it's side kinda had the one taking the beating sort of cornered.


----------



## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

Dezboy (a member who doesn't come around much anymore) did an experiment where he was constantly changing the decor in his tank, and I think he had success. I always had a feeling that the longer there are territories, the more bitterly they are defended. Not sure how true that is, but I make it a habit to switch up my reds tank and i dont have many fin nips, but mine are a lot larger. 
nips happen though, these are aggressive fish, conditions can be perfect and still they will beat each other up.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

I can deal with some nipping, but some how in my tank, it's ended up in carnage a few times. I lost like 4 rb's in the beginning. That was $25 bucks just thrown away. I'm just trying to find a way to minimize the fatalities is all.


----------



## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

and the carnage continues!

2 more have disappeared now. I'm just gonna let them wean themselves down, and see where it go's.


----------



## Dasmopar (Jan 22, 2005)

How about adding in some little convicts or something? Maybe adding some dither fish to the tank would focus their attention on the dithers instead of each other?


----------

