# Could this be a New Pirahna Species??



## Fishman

This thread is over at Predfish forum! Looks like a very interesting fish!

Figured I would tell everybody to help figure out what this is!!!!New fish ?


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## Netmancer

Those fish are absolutely gorgeous, that's all I have to say about that









I'm sure our man Frank will tell us what he thinks


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## Fishman

Yeah I saw those and I was like Damn!!!! 
Those Kick serious A** man!!!

Figured I would let everybody check those out!!


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## Sir Nathan XXI

I am pretty sure those are Maculatus, Fishpost has them too


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## hastatus

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 7 2003, 11:34 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I am pretty sure those are Maculatus, Fishpost has them too


 Are you now? We'll see.


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## Sir Nathan XXI

I just mean they look just like the Maculatus Ron has, thats why I said that


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## Fishman

hey I did not want to start anything but frank what do you think!!

Thanks in Advance!!


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## SteelGluer

White p's


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## Grosse Gurke

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> I am pretty sure those are Maculatus, Fishpost has them too


 I believe you are correct. A member here posted i pic of his that looked the same.


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## Netmancer

Shouldn't this be _moved to What Species Is My Piranha?_


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## hastatus

> Fishman Posted on Apr 7 2003, 11:45 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> hey I did not want to start anything but frank what do you think!!
> 
> Thanks in Advance!!


 Ron is forwarding samples to me in about a week that are being soaked in formalin. I'll address this fish in more detail when I receive the specimens. As for Pedro's fish, I would need to know where he got them from instead of just Brazil.



> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 7 2003, 11:42 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I just mean they look just like the Maculatus Ron has, thats why I said that





> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 7 2003, 11:34 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I am pretty sure those are Maculatus, Fishpost has them too


That is a big leap from _pretty sure those are Maculatus_ to _they look just like the Maculatus_. Just because a fish looks like something doesn't make it so.

Anyway fishman, I'll have this topic in Piranha Science when I receive the specimens to examine and remark on them then.


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## InSinUAsian

I originally thought S. Macs also. I guess that good scientific work must be done. Goes to show that Frank takes his job seriously. Keep us posted on the outcome.

~Dj


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## RhomZilla

FREAK'in Dope!!!!!






























I have to say that the coloring and the way it seems to shoal with its kind can surpass the Piraya and hopefully more agressive than a Cariba.


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## Fishman

Thanks Frank and keep up the good work!!


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## RHOMKILLA

This is for you honeymooner fans
It's a "Yellow Belly Sap Sucker"


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## RHOMKILLA

On a serious note those are some kick ass looking fish. Whatever they are Damn!


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## Sir Nathan XXI

Frank why do you scrutinize every single word I say, to me they look like the Maculatus Pics that I have seen, thats all I ever meant in both posts, I didnt elaborate enough for you on the first one I guess so thats why I posted again, seriously I dont wanna have to do this crap all over again


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## pcrose

very beautiful fish


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## hastatus

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 8 2003, 01:18 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Frank why do you scrutinize every single word I say, to me they look like the Maculatus Pics that I have seen, thats all I ever meant in both posts, I didnt elaborate enough for you on the first one I guess so thats why I posted again, seriously I dont wanna have to do this crap all over again


 With your history of arguing over data and facts, one would think you would have learned by now. And yes, I do scrutinze every word particularly from someone notorious for bad information on pirana information. Once you have shown that you can advance beyond questionable theories, then I will pretty much discontinue my observations on how you present those ideas to the public.


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## phensway

what is predfish website. the entire URL please??? thanks


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## MPower

Those are just awesome!


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## WebHostExpert

Those are some sweet piranhas..









MAD


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## thePACK

they have great yellow on them


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## Sir Nathan XXI

Most of my info is scientifically correct, and the info you regard is incorrect is something thats debateable but as of no I dont have any hard proof to substantiate it, it could be right or wrong, but I really have learned its not worth it to me to argue it, I thought you had realized that, really lets just move on Frank quit bringing up the past, I am trying to move on from the argueing


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## hastatus

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 8 2003, 03:17 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Most of my info is scientifically correct, and the info you regard is incorrect is something thats debateable but as of no I dont have any hard proof to substantiate it, it could be right or wrong, but I really have learned its not worth it to me to argue it, I thought you had realized that, really lets just move on Frank quit bringing up the past, I am trying to move on from the argueing


 I think there is enough history Nate for me to even dispute your claims (AGAIN). But why ruin a good post? Your past is your present as often seen over and over and over again. As for _trying ot move on from arguing_ doubt anyone takes that serously coming from you. At least I don't. As for this remark:



> Most of my info is scientifically correct


 We are still wondering where you are getting this information from since you are not a systematician and have little comprehension of phylogenetics and systemics. That's right, forgot you are a hobbist that uses opinion only. Nearly forgot.


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## RhomZilla

Ron is forwarding samples to me in about a week that are being soaked in formalin. [/quote]
Frank, I have no clue.. but can you satisfy my curiosity? Can you explain, in short, what "soaked in formalin mean" and what it does? If you dont mind..


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## nitrofish

so, what do youy think it is frank.it dosent look like a pygo species to me, but Im not an expert .


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## hastatus

> RhomZilla Posted on Apr 8 2003, 05:15 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> QUOTE (hastatus @ Apr 7 2003, 03:50 PM)


 Ron is forwarding samples to me in about a week that are being soaked in formalin.



> Frank, I have no clue.. but can you satisfy my curiosity? Can you explain, in short, what "soaked in formalin mean" and what it does?


Formalin is a stock solution used to preserve fishes to keep from spoilage. It also brings out hidden markings on the body you would not see normally.



> nitrofish Posted on Apr 8 2003, 05:25 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> so, what do youy think it is frank.it dosent look like a pygo species to me, but Im not an expert


As I said at PFISH and will say here, going to wait until I have had an opportunity to examine this fish if it is indeed the same one that Ron as asked me to examine.


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## thePACK

new pygo....









wishful thing


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## RhomZilla

AHHH.. thanks Frank. Will be here waiting for the result on your findings.


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## DiXoN

frank 
is that one the piranha that ron recd as a piraya a couple of months ago i remember you were conversing on the subject and was going to look into it then .its pretty interesting and exiting stuff as it is a really nice fish
dixon


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## Poseidon X

...they said they removed the jaw... and they believed it to be pygo, which clearly doesnt look so, but is it possible the fish only had one row of teeth inside? we have commented on how thick and pygo like maculatus looks and im assuming this is just another very thick serra.


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## Xenon

_ Moved to What Species is My Piranha? _ forum


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## traumatic

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> Most of my info is scientifically correct, and the info you regard is incorrect is something thats debateable but as of no I dont have any hard proof to substantiate it, it could be right or wrong, but I really have learned its not worth it to me to argue it, I thought you had realized that, really lets just move on Frank quit bringing up the past, I am trying to move on from the argueing


 some people give their 2 cents, Nate you shell out a $1.50. 
if you really want your info to be correct, go to Oregon, ask
frank if you can be his apprentice piranha scientist and then
you guys can be lifelong friends.









oh yeah that fish is cool, I can't wait till Frank finds out what it is.


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## hastatus

> traumatic Posted on Apr 8 2003, 04:58 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> QUOTE (Sir Nathan XXI @ Apr 7 2003, 10:17 PM)
> Most of my info is scientifically correct, and the info you regard is incorrect is something thats debateable but as of no I dont have any hard proof to substantiate it, it could be right or wrong, but I really have learned its not worth it to me to argue it, I thought you had realized that, really lets just move on Frank quit bringing up the past, I am trying to move on from the argueing


Nate: _I dont have any hard proof to substantiate it._

That sums it up quite nicely on his level of knowledge.



> some people give their 2 cents, Nate you shell out a $1.50.
> if you really want your info to be correct, go to Oregon, ask
> frank if you can be his apprentice piranha scientist and then
> you guys can be lifelong friends.


I've already raised my children, thank you, but doubt anyone would have much success with a leading a horse (or donkey to be more exact) to water and making them drink it.











> oh yeah that fish is cool, I can't wait till Frank finds out what it is


. That is all I'm waiting on, to get the fish in front of me to make a determination.



> BDKing57 Posted on Apr 8 2003, 11:41 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...they said they removed the jaw... and they believed it to be pygo, which clearly doesnt look so, but is it possible the fish only had one row of teeth inside? we have commented on how thick and pygo like maculatus looks and im assuming this is just another very thick serra.


 The question rests more with the morphology and locality of this species. I'm a bit taken aback by its lack of palatine teeth which would include it as a Pygocentrus or Pygopristis which both do not have palatine teeth. Even more confusing is the locality data on this fish provided by Ron (FishPost). So hopefully you can see my hesitation to say one way or the other if it is a polymorphic S. spilopleura (or S. maculatus Jegu 2001) or something else.


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## Winkyee

Someone just send me a couple and I'll be glad to call them "MY" Piranhas.


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## TheRightToRemainSilent

that is the most awesome piranha i have ever seen


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## hastatus

> BDKing57 Posted on Apr 8 2003, 11:41 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...they said they removed the jaw... and they believed it to be pygo, which clearly doesnt look so, but is it possible the fish only had one row of teeth inside?


 I meant to discuss this with you regarding the ectopterygoid teeth. These are teeth that sit inside the roof of the mouth. Depending on non-Pygocentrus species or non-Pygopristis, there is usually 2 to 6 tiny teeth.


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## phensway

i think they are spilo complex form......... ruby red.......... there is a pic in the factsheets under the spilo that looks just like these ones


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## Poseidon X

> BDKing57 Posted on Apr 8 2003, 11:41 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


...they said they removed the jaw... and they believed it to be pygo, which clearly doesnt look so, but is it possible the fish only had one row of teeth inside?


> I meant to discuss this with you regarding the ectopterygoid teeth. These are teeth that sit inside the roof of the mouth. Depending on non-Pygocentrus species or non-Pygopristis, there is usually 2 to 6 tiny teeth.


I was wondering if the guy who placed a pygocentrus ID on these Piranha saw no ectopterygoid teeth and therefore came to that conclusion. Have you received the specimens yet?


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## InSinUAsian

Yeah, im kinda curious as to how all this is playing out.

~Dj


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## Ron

ok, how can this possibly be done in a calm and correct manner?

I have no idea, maybe I should not have even spoken of this fish until it was better understood what it is(or could be)

I euthenized the first specimen.
I conducted the initial examination of the upper jaw aftre conferring with Frank. 
I euthenized the next two specimens that were caught at the same time.

I have placed them into a solution of Formaldehyde and water in order to preserve them.
I am now in the process of transferring them for long term storage and study into a mixture of alchohol, water, and formaldehyde. AFTER they have completed this staged process I will send a sample to Frank so he can also conduct an examination of the specimens. We will have to see what his opinions are when that step is concluded.

If it is determined to be an obscure or new species, I will then go to Brazil and see if I can also collect the same type of fish from the locality that I have been given for its collection, hopefully confirming its habitat.

Then,,,, I have no idea,, that may be a long way away. It is a nice fish though.

I hope you all understand better where these fish came from and what is going on to determine what they are. At the end of it all, they are very nice fish.


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## hastatus

Ron need a good photo of those other ones (striolatus-type). Please email me the photo. I have Antonio's attention on it maybe we can get some solid answers.


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## hastatus

> hastatus Posted on Apr 17 2003, 08:23 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ron need a good photo of those other ones (striolatus-type). Please email me the photo. I have Antonio's attention on it maybe we can get some solid answers.
> Ron Posted on Apr 17 2003, 06:16 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ok, how can this possibly be done in a calm and correct manner?
> 
> I have no idea, maybe I should not have even spoken of this fish until it was better understood what it is(or could be)
> 
> I euthenized the first specimen.
> I conducted the initial examination of the upper jaw aftre conferring with Frank.
> I euthenized the next two specimens that were caught at the same time.
> 
> I have placed them into a solution of Formaldehyde and water in order to preserve them.
> I am now in the process of transferring them for long term storage and study into a mixture of alchohol, water, and formaldehyde. AFTER they have completed this staged process I will send a sample to Frank so he can also conduct an examination of the specimens. We will have to see what his opinions are when that step is concluded.
> 
> If it is determined to be an obscure or new species, I will then go to Brazil and see if I can also collect the same type of fish from the locality that I have been given for its collection, hopefully confirming its habitat.
> 
> Then,,,, I have no idea,, that may be a long way away. It is a nice fish though.
> 
> I hope you all understand better where these fish came from and what is going on to determine what they are. At the end of it all, they are very nice fish.


 They want answers now now now.







. It takes time people and I'm not about to put a tag on a fish without knowing for sure what it is. So please be patient. Ron is handling this properly, so give him the respect he deserves and be patient with the process.


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## phensway

a blend of purple and yellow!! those are awesome


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## aquascape

wow!!!! It seems like i got everyones attention on this subject.
Im glad to see everyone is intrested in this fish. Frank please do let us know your final thought.
thanks
pedro viegas :smile:


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## Ron

Frank,

I posted the other new fish pics as well.

striolatus type


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## hastatus

Ron check your PM box.


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## baitman

Just thought I'd post an update on these fish as I am currently an owner of one. This fish has the most amazing coloration, bright yellow on the belly fades up to a pink about half way up and then to a purple along the back. The rear edge of the gill plate is a deep orange. His eyes are Hunter's Orange (the blaze orange color deer hunters wear. I'm not kidding, it's that orange). And he is SUPER aggressive. He is 6.5" and he eats between four and eight feeders an inch in size every day. I missed a day of feeding and he tore apart the pleco I had living with him that was almost the same size as him. When you come up to the tank he swimms back and forth along the side looking at you.

But here's the cool part. I stuck my hand in there once to adjust a plant, and he just sat right by my hand. So I started petting him behind his dorsal fin and he kinda leaned a bit to the side and sat right there. When I stopped and removed my hand he went rigt back to his swimming around. I can now pet him like this almost whenever I want. Any one who doesn't believe me on this, (I wouldn't believe it myself) can come and see.

Whatever this piranha species is (frank will let us know when he's had proper time to study a specimen of it) it is definately a wonderful fish. If it is a new species or at least a variation of a current species, I believe it would be a wonderful addition to the hobby. I realize that a lot of what I have described is due to the individual temperment of this fish, but the coloration alone on this fish make it a must have. I've shown it to many people since I've got it and they've all said it is the most beautiful fish they have ever seen. If any of you get a chance to buy one of these fish, do it. This one cost me quite a bit, but I don't regret it for a second.


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## Kolbenschlag

You MUST post a video of that... if you can really "pet" him, and he will still eat that many feeders a day, I'd say you have the perfect piranha.


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## baitman

I'm going to look into getting a digital video cam. I'll let you know.


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## hastatus

> baitman Posted on May 9 2003, 02:33 PM ....But here's the cool part. I stuck my hand in there once to adjust a plant, and he just sat right by my hand. So I started petting him behind his dorsal fin and he kinda leaned a bit to the side and sat right there. When I stopped and removed my hand he went rigt back to his swimming around. I can now pet him like this almost whenever I want. Any one who doesn't believe me on this, (I wouldn't believe it myself) can come and see.


 Nothing not to believe, did the same thing for KOBI TV in their news documentary on piranas. Except used a large S. rhombeus and I petted it much to the dismay of the news team who were waiting for a bloody snack to occur. Made good news coverage.


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## oburi

any id on this fish yet or has experts decided on P. maculipinnis??? Or is this a varient type of a current species? it sounds very interesting.

Oburi


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## hastatus

> oburi Posted on Aug 11 2003, 09:49 PM
> any id on this fish yet or has experts decided on P. maculipinnis??? Or is this a varient type of a current species? it sounds very interesting.


The fish that the dealer thought was P. striolatus (Peru) is P. denticulata. The other fish that resembled (coloration and from Bahia) to S. maculatus is still being examined. It may be several months (or weeks) to a year or more before any results are forthcoming particularly if the fish "is new" or not scene in that location before.

Welcome to science.:nod:


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## oburi

the one in the pics at
http://www.fishpost.com/forum/index.php?ac...act=ST&f=7&t=32

is actually P. denticulata? is this a pygo species or serra species?
thanks frank.

oburi


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## hastatus

> oburi Posted on Aug 11 2003, 10:07 PM
> the one in the pics at
> http://www.fishpost.com/forum/index.php?ac...act=ST&f=7&t=32
> 
> is actually P. denticulata? is this a pygo species or serra species?
> thanks frank.
> 
> oburi


_Pygopristis denticulata_ is the only fish with penticuspid teeth. The fish in that photo (the link) if it is the same fish that was sent to me by the dealer for examination is consistent with _P. denticulata_ (ie; counts and penticuspid teeth). At that time, he believed the fish to be _Pristobrycon striolatus_ (Peru), but _striolatus_ is not known from Peru, _denticulata_ is. The body pattern is fairly common with some _Pristobrycon_ and certainly _Pygopristis_. One reason to carefully examine the palate region and the primary teeth along with other skeletal characters (serrae, eye diameter, fin counts etc.)


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## Mr. Hannibal

It sems there is a long way to go about this fish...very interesting...!


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