# New Addition To My Co-hab



## Co. Caines

the new addition to my ever expanding not recommended piranha+ co-hab. "white diamond rhom"


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## TheCableGuy

White diamond rhom??
Looks like s.maculatus to me.


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## Co. Caines

At 10 inches I highly doubt it is a Maculatus. It looks nothing like the Maculatus I currently have with it. It was labeled diamond piranha. But it was significantly whiter than the other ones labeled diamond piranha. The other ones had a blackish blue hue to them. The marine land LED lights on my tank and iPhone 4 camera do not do this fish justice. It's colour is spectacular. One of the store clerks referee to it as a white diamond rhom because the other ones were no where close to it's colour.


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## Sylar_92

I think it could be a regular rhom, but I've never seen a humeral spot on any that I have bought before. Give it some time, Im sure in time the white will start to darken into a coal or onyx. LOL reminds me of an older version of my old GDR, cool rhom either way though.





























Heater burn day: one of my sadest fish keeping days, first time a fish I owned got this

I see those little convicts and exos in the back, cool cohab. How long have the cons been in there.


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## MFNRyan

What do you have co-habed in the one tank and how long has this lasted?


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## frantzml1982

More info. What else is in the tank?


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## Genesis8

+1


frantzml1982 said:


> More info. What else is in the tank?


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## Co. Caines

the Co-Hab exist of 21 domestic reds (3 1/2 months), 10 random tetras (3 3/4 months), 15 exodons (2 3/4 months), 2 common pleco (3 1/4 months ) 2 adult breeder convicts (2 1/2 months) 40 convict fry (2 months)
1 wild red (3+ weeks) 1 gold Mac (3+ weeks) 1 diamond rhom (2 days) in a 180G tank temperature consistently at 82-84 degrees. keep in mind all convicts and random tetras were meant as feeders. once the convicts paired of the piranhas left them alone. a second batch of eggs has been laid in the corner of the tank the piranhas claim the home. cant wait to see them try to defend their eggs in that corner.

i just took this video. i just finished feeding them and i am about to gravel vac the tank and do a water change. dont mind the left over food and sh*t its about to be removed.


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## MFNRyan

AWESOME SET UP!! I hope it works for you. I hear these set up's don't make it past a year but who knows. I like the exodons too i hear they nip your piranhas fins away though which worrys me.


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## Co. Caines

yea it probably wont last that long, but who knows. the exodons use to nip at the piranhas when they were smaller but once i added the Gold Mac the exodons got put on manners. i throw in 4 gold fish every day and the exodons de-scale the gold fish and then a piranha finishes it off. so they get their fill off of gold fish scales. i am planning to get rid of the exodons because i cant find anymore. the tank is too big for them so they dont shoal anymore. they swim individually in the tank.


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## TheCableGuy

Co. Caines said:


> *At 10 inches I highly doubt it is a Maculatus. It looks nothing like the Maculatus I currently have with it. It was labeled diamond piranha.* But it was significantly whiter than the other ones labeled diamond piranha. The other ones had a blackish blue hue to them. The marine land LED lights on my tank and iPhone 4 camera do not do this fish justice. It's colour is spectacular. One of the store clerks referee to it as a white diamond rhom because the other ones were no where close to it's colour.


The black band on the anal fin makes me think mac, and a lot of lfs' mislabel p's.
But good luck with your cohab whatever serra it is.


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## bob351

the elusive white diamond rhom









This cohab is not a cohab... its a ticking time bomb.

Also i hope you do 3 water changes a week that tank is way overstocked.


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## Piranha-Freak101




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## hastatus

TheCableGuy said:


> *At 10 inches I highly doubt it is a Maculatus. It looks nothing like the Maculatus I currently have with it. It was labeled diamond piranha.* But it was significantly whiter than the other ones labeled diamond piranha. The other ones had a blackish blue hue to them. The marine land LED lights on my tank and iPhone 4 camera do not do this fish justice. It's colour is spectacular. One of the store clerks referee to it as a white diamond rhom because the other ones were no where close to it's colour.


The black band on the anal fin makes me think mac, and a lot of lfs' mislabel p's.
But good luck with your cohab whatever serra it is.
[/quote]
its S rhombeus.


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## TheCableGuy

Thanks Frank!
Was hoping you'd pop in.


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## hastatus

TheCableGuy said:


> Thanks Frank!
> Was hoping you'd pop in.


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## Johnny_Zanni

Idk about anybody else but the only piranha I see in the video is P.Nattereri..


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## TheCableGuy

No, there's a rhom swimming in the back.

@ 0:48


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## Co. Caines

There is also a maculatus as well.


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## Johnny_Zanni

Thanks trav I see it now.


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## TheCableGuy

Johnny_Zanni said:


> Thanks trav I see it now.


That's Trevor to u


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## Moondemon

I don't understand the purpose in a ''cohab'' of piranhas like this... it wont work in the long run !


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## Guest

Tick, tock, tick, tock









Having 22 reds in there alone is overstocked IMO, then adding all of the other fish








Also goldfish aren't good fish to use as feeders, they usually live overstocked conditions similar to yours and have parasites and whatnot, also some say they can stunt growth. Using them could lead to you introducing a parasite into the tank and wiping out all your stock due to it being overstocked IMO.

Anyway, enjoy your setup whilst you can


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## s4awd

Love it! I would love to have something like that going. Much more interesting to watch then having one fish. Good luck with it.


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## Mr. Hannibal




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## Co. Caines

Well I took out the 15 exodons and sold them and added a 3 inch black piranha in there place. After 96 hours of removing the exodons n adding the juvenile black piranha the tank environment changed. It seemed as the exodons kept all the other fish in check. All the piranhas r swimming higher in the tank and will swim up to eat feeder guppies and minnows n gold fish. Before they would wait for the feeders to swim to the bottom of the tank to eat them. With the exodons removed the piranhas r acting more like piranhas. They hunt down all new fish added to the tank immediately in order to regulate their domain.

I like them better this way...

Another thing I noticed through out the day the 3 species shoal together but at nights the serras sleep alone.


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## hastatus

Co. Caines said:


> Well I took out the 15 exodons and sold them and added a 3 inch black piranha in there place. After 96 hours of removing the exodons n adding the juvenile black piranha the tank environment changed. It seemed as the exodons kept all the other fish in check. All the piranhas r swimming higher in the tank and will swim up to eat feeder guppies and minnows n gold fish. Before they would wait for the feeders to swim to the bottom of the tank to eat them. With the exodons removed the piranhas r acting more like piranhas. They hunt down all new fish added to the tank immediately in order to regulate their domain.
> 
> I like them better this way...
> 
> Another thing I noticed through out the day the 3 species shoal together but at nights the serras sleep alone.


Never ceases to amaze me the lengths people go to disprove years of experience.


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## memento

You could add some more I guess


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## primetime3wise

^that is









the cohab, on the other hand is


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## Mr. Hannibal

I wonder what's gonna be the next step to stress (even more) those poor fish to prove nothing...


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## Guest

Next fish added will be an elong, then there will be a post in the injury section asking how to treat an injured fish (fish will have a big chunk of flesh missing) and whether it should be isolated for treatment.


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## BRUNER247

hastatus said:


> Well I took out the 15 exodons and sold them and added a 3 inch black piranha in there place. After 96 hours of removing the exodons n adding the juvenile black piranha the tank environment changed. It seemed as the exodons kept all the other fish in check. All the piranhas r swimming higher in the tank and will swim up to eat feeder guppies and minnows n gold fish. Before they would wait for the feeders to swim to the bottom of the tank to eat them. With the exodons removed the piranhas r acting more like piranhas. They hunt down all new fish added to the tank immediately in order to regulate their domain.
> 
> I like them better this way...
> 
> Another thing I noticed through out the day the 3 species shoal together but at nights the serras sleep alone.


Never ceases to amaze me the lengths people go to disprove years of experience.
[/quote]
Years of experience has proved cariba won't spawn in captivity. Should this not be tryd too? Years of experience used to prove that macs couldn't be co-habed but yet many are doing it these days. Experience has proven that pygos & serras can't be co-habed but yet more & more are doing it. Where would we be if the envelope was never pushed? Definitely not as far as we see now. But then again wtf do I know I'm just a clue-less wanna-be hobbist. I sure don't know EVERYTHING like you Frank with all your scientific data. GL op. Screw the haters!


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## hastatus

Traveller said:


> Next fish added will be an elong, then there will be a post in the injury section asking how to treat an injured fish (fish will have a big chunk of flesh missing) and whether it should be isolated for treatment.


True. Next we'll have Bruner tell us how smart he is. Lmao.


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## Zeushalives

I love the idea but, ... that looks pretty dangerous for the fish to me. Its asking for Ick or someother pathogen, keeping the water in check has got to be difficult at the least. But hey, if your up to it ... I love it. I guess im just trying to say I like it for you but not for me


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## BRUNER247

Traveller said:


> Next fish added will be an elong, then there will be a post in the injury section asking how to treat an injured fish (fish will have a big chunk of flesh missing) and whether it should be isolated for treatment.


Just as long as Frank don't advise him to use a 5gal bucket as a hospital tank for treatment without a heater & filtration for a week.


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## Mr. Hannibal

This forum has more than 40.000 members so i've seen many many many fail these kinds of "cohabs" (including me) before... it might work for a while not beacause of the talent, care and genius of "Co.caines" but the stress of the fish that will decrease aggression... for a while... but what do i know...


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## s4awd

[/quote]
Years of experience has proved cariba won't spawn in captivity. Should this not be tryd too? Years of experience used to prove that macs couldn't be co-habed but yet many are doing it these days. Experience has proven that pygos & serras can't be co-habed but yet more & more are doing it. Where would we be if the envelope was never pushed? Definitely not as far as we see now. But then again wtf do I know I'm just a clue-less wanna-be hobbist. I sure don't know EVERYTHING like you Frank with all your scientific data. GL op. Screw the haters!
[/quote]

True. Anything can happen. Though I would love to try, I just can't stomach losing a $35-100 fish that I've been carefully preparing food for and caring for to another fish who was having a bad day. If someone is willing to try it, I say do it. Honestly, seeing the op's youtube video is a sight to see and I'm still amazed. I've been to aquascape and they have two big black piranha's sharing a 75 gallon. Not sure if there were more and that's all that's left but it's so strange to see that I still can't get over it.


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## BRUNER247

hastatus said:


> Next fish added will be an elong, then there will be a post in the injury section asking how to treat an injured fish (fish will have a big chunk of flesh missing) and whether it should be isolated for treatment.


True. Next we'll have Bruner tell us how smart he is. Lmao.
[/quote]
You off your geritol again old man? I've never claimed to know everything but I know better than using a 5gal bucket for a hospital tank like YOU'VE advised.


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## hastatus

Mr. Hannibal said:


> This forum has more than 40.000 members so i've seen many many many fail these kinds of "cohabs" (including me) before... it might work for a while not beacause of the talent, care and genius of "Co.caines" but the stress of the fish that will decrease aggression... for a while... but what do i know...


You gotta remember their 10 or less years of experience far exceeds yours in Venezuela living near those rivers or my 50 years trying those very same things. They know better, don't most pindejos?


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## Mr. Hannibal

BRUNER247 said:


> Next fish added will be an elong, then there will be a post in the injury section asking how to treat an injured fish (fish will have a big chunk of flesh missing) and whether it should be isolated for treatment.


True. Next we'll have Bruner tell us how smart he is. Lmao.
[/quote]
You off your geritol again old man? I've never claimed to know everything but I know better than using a 5gal bucket for a hospital tank like YOU'VE advised.
[/quote]

An hospital tank is the ideal when having these fish but 5g buckets will do great for emergencies (when you don't have an hospital tank)... please don't confuse others with your ignorance...


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## BRUNER247

hastatus said:


> Next fish added will be an elong, then there will be a post in the injury section asking how to treat an injured fish (fish will have a big chunk of flesh missing) and whether it should be isolated for treatment.


True. Next we'll have Bruner tell us how smart he is. Lmao.
[/quote]
No we'll just have you & your big head putting members down or twisting their words around because NOBODY here knows anything but you or if someone doesn't always agree with your scientific data.


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## hastatus

Mr. Hannibal said:


> Next fish added will be an elong, then there will be a post in the injury section asking how to treat an injured fish (fish will have a big chunk of flesh missing) and whether it should be isolated for treatment.


True. Next we'll have Bruner tell us how smart he is. Lmao.
[/quote]
You off your geritol again old man? I've never claimed to know everything but I know better than using a 5gal bucket for a hospital tank like YOU'VE advised.
[/quote]

An hospital tank is the ideal when having these fish but 5g buckets will do great for emergencies (when you don't have an hospital tank)... please don't confuse others with your ignorance...
[/quote]
Seems our friend there needs some comprehension classes too besides ability to read problems.

Daniel, que nunca deja de sorprenderme que algunos nunca la gente estúpida saber cuándo parar.


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## BRUNER247

Yeah in emergencies not several days when the fish could have stayed exactly where it was at & had a heated tank & not fluctuating water temps in a bucket.. & don't play like you know how long I've kept these fish Frank. & Hannibal I didn't confuse nothing.


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## Mr. Hannibal

hastatus said:


> Yeah in emergencies not several days when the fish could have stayed exactly where it was at & had a heated tank & not fluctuating water temps in a bucket.. & don't play like you know how long I've kept these fish Frank. & Hannibal I didn't confuse nothing.


I can see now you really never read the whole thread...


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## hastatus

Mr. Hannibal said:


> Yeah in emergencies not several days when the fish could have stayed exactly where it was at & had a heated tank & not fluctuating water temps in a bucket.. & don't play like you know how long I've kept these fish Frank. & Hannibal I didn't confuse nothing.


I can see now you really never read the whole thread...








[/quote]
I'd paste the entire context of the conversation but doubt he would get it then.


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## BRUNER247

hastatus said:


> Next fish added will be an elong, then there will be a post in the injury section asking how to treat an injured fish (fish will have a big chunk of flesh missing) and whether it should be isolated for treatment.


True. Next we'll have Bruner tell us how smart he is. Lmao.
[/quote]
You off your geritol again old man? I've never claimed to know everything but I know better than using a 5gal bucket for a hospital tank like YOU'VE advised.
[/quote]

An hospital tank is the ideal when having these fish but 5g buckets will do great for emergencies (when you don't have an hospital tank)... please don't confuse others with your ignorance...
[/quote]
Seems our friend there needs some comprehension classes too besides ability to read problems.

Daniel, que nunca deja de sorprenderme que algunos nunca la gente estúpida saber cuándo parar.
[/quote]
Your hilarious Frank! Never read whole thread? You gotta be joking. Your no better than anyone here Hannibal you've had some of the rarest piranha ever & killed them.so don't act like your mr perfect either. Go ahead & lock this thread too or talk your sh*t idc.


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## Mr. Hannibal

BRUNER247 said:


> Your hilarious Frank! Never read whole thread? You gotta be joking. Your no better than anyone here Hannibal you've had some of the rarest piranha ever & killed them.so don't act like your mr perfect either. Go ahead & lock this thread too or talk your sh*t idc.


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## hastatus

I see no reason to lock it since only one person is ranting.


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## Mr. Hannibal

... and then he started calling me names... again...


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## hastatus

Mr. Hannibal said:


> ... and then he started calling me names... again...


Must be because you live in Venezuela among the fish he only sees photos of lmao.


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## memento

Bruner, thanks for reminding me why I choose for science instead of the hobby.
Amazing, how guys like you can help this forum and the hobby down the drain...


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## hastatus

memento said:


> Bruner, thanks for reminding me why I choose for science instead of the hobby.
> Amazing, how guys like you can help this forum and the hobby down the drain...


Did you not get the memo? Bombastic opinions with no merit is allowed. Science? What do they know when it comes to piranhas. We have home style aquarium experts who have the entire amazon in their tank. Didn't you know they know more? Never mind if you live in South America and eat these fish for lunch...not you Mr. Hannibal they are too pet like for you







.


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## MFNRyan

Well looks like the topic is turning into a dispute that has been ongoing with Frank an Burner. We should all stick the the OP's original post. Which is that he has added another casualty to an already overstocked tank that is full of fish that can not coexist. Maybe for a few months due to shock, stress, overcrowded tank. The reason it is not recommended to do these types of tanks is because these fish will kill each other and 100's if not 1000's of ignorant self acclaimed geniuses have "pushed the envelope" thinking the experts (that have the fish in mind first) have given these types of set ups the best possible chance, don't know what they are talking about. An time after time it does not work. I'm not saying Frank knows everything, because no one truely does, and I'm not saying he is always nice about his answers or explains the reason why very well, BUT he is very smart when it comes to this stuff and he earned the term old man with years of trial an error. Where a 200-300 dollar fish has died because it will not work and he is there to tell you DON'T DO IT so you can save that fish. But they already know everything and he doesn't. I think that ignorance alone is a forethought to the way they will raise and kill all their fish. Yeah he can be an asshole, an doesnt always give you the answer you want, but he is very helpful and I wouldn't be so ignorant about stuff to cloud a topic that is already so full of ignorance just in the main idea of that topic already. Not saying that Burner does not know anything, he is like the rest of us, a hobbyist who has raised fish the way the rest of us would an has learned from his own experiences. I just don't agree with the approach or bad mouthing. Especially from someone with so much time dealing with these fish, and dealing with them the correct way

P.S. I am far from any type of expert in anyway and am not claiming to be. I'm a newb, just stating from the outside.


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> Well looks like the topic is turning into a dispute that has been ongoing with Frank an Burner. We should all stick the the OP's original post. Which is that he has added another casualty to an already overstocked tank that is full of fish that can not coexist. Maybe for a few months due to shock, stress, overcrowded tank. The reason it is not recommended to do these types of tanks is because these fish will kill each other and 100's if not 1000's of ignorant self acclaimed geniuses have "pushed the envelope" thinking the experts (that have the fish in mind first) have given these types of set ups the best possible chance, don't know what they are talking about. An time after time it does not work. I'm not saying Frank knows everything, because no one truely does, and I'm not saying he is always nice about his answers or explains the reason why very well, BUT he is very smart when it comes to this stuff and he earned the term old man with years of trial an error. Where a 200-300 dollar fish has died because it will not work and he is there to tell you DON'T DO IT so you can save that fish. But they already know everything and he doesn't. I think that ignorance alone is a forethought to the way they will raise and kill all their fish. Yeah he can be an asshole, an doesnt always give you the answer you want, but he is very helpful and I wouldn't be so ignorant about stuff to cloud a topic that is already so full of ignorance just in the main idea of that topic already. Not saying that Burner does not know anything, he is like the rest of us, a hobbyist who has raised fish the way the rest of us would an has learned from his own experiences. I just don't agree with the approach or bad mouthing. Especially from someone with so much time dealing with these fish, and dealing with them the correct way
> 
> P.S. I am far from any type of expert in anyway and am not claiming to be. I'm a newb, just stating from the outside.


Finally a coherent post. Refreshing redbelly. Of course I can be an asshole. Most people have them. Some tend to be it all the time, while some like me are when dealing with one. At my age it no longer matters if an asshole agrees with me or not. My work is at opefe for all to read. I come here something to answer questions some of you can't answer with any authority.

PS: I don't seek confrontation but I dont back away from it either.


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## MFNRyan

ha ha ha i'm the biggest A-hole there is. Just ask my women she will tell you! lol I wish I had the comfort that Daniel has with having these amazing fish in his back yard. I have three Cariba and they were not easy for me to get. I really like this type of fish and if I had the opp. he does I would certainly take advantage like he does an this is part of the reason I look up to his answers an reply's so much on my topics. He certainly has the upper hand on them compared to the rest of us. He has been through the trial an error stage an suffered casualties already and has learned from that. I guess Burner never killed any fish, I can tell he never has by his open ability to "co-hab" rhoms and other fish. Which is probably why he has never had the chance at the rare fish Daniel has, that no one really knows much about. A casualty or two would be expected, I would say.

Frank: Estoy de acuerdo los expertos autoproclamados que conocen más de 50 años de investigación en ciencias,







Like Daniel said, Pendejos lol


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## gjohnson1989

RedBelly11 said:


> ha ha ha i'm the biggest A-hole there is. Just ask my women she will tell you! lol I wish I had the comfort that Daniel has with having these amazing fish in his back yard. I have three Cariba and they were not easy for me to get. I really like this type of fish and if I had the opp. he does I would certainly take advantage like he does an this is part of the reason I look up to his answers an reply's so much on my topics. He certainly has the upper hand on them compared to the rest of us. He has been through the trial an error stage an suffered casualties already and has learned from that. I guess Burner never killed any fish, I can tell he never has by his open ability to "co-hab" rhoms and other fish. Which is probably why he has never had the chance at the rare fish Daniel has, that no one really knows much about. A casualty or two would be expected, I would say.
> 
> Frank: Estoy de acuerdo los expertos autoproclamados que conocen más de 50 años de investigación en ciencias,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like Daniel said, Pendejos lol


correct me if im wrong, but i think you just said that you agree with the people who say they know more than those with 50 years of experience. i think that is the opposite of what you meant! lol


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## MFNRyan

It was a reply to a post Frank made to Daniel earlier in the thread. lol you got to read that first. It's spanish also, although i wouldn't be surprised if I misused a word. I learned all my Spanish back in Texas. It's not really proper lol


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## gjohnson1989

Ha i know it's Spanish, I'm a Spanish major. It just looks funny. Pretty good though!!


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## MFNRyan

HA I meant that was the comment I was replying to not that you didn't know it was Spanish sorry. Must not be explaining myself well enough.


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> HA I meant that was the comment I was replying to not that you didn't know it was Spanish sorry. Must not be explaining myself well enough.


You guys are cracking me up


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## gjohnson1989

Oh oh I got it now! I didn't read your comment very well. My fault, sir.


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## MFNRyan

no problem lol. Not that we are any more off topic then some of the other guys on here lol


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## David.

That is a beautiful Rhom. It really does look like some kinda Rhom/Spilo hybrid. Very nice looking fish. Much prettier than any Rhom I ever owned.


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## memento

There are some things I just don't understand about your comments Bruner. 
First, how can it be you say nobody really knows anything about piranhas, while at the same time you present yourself like an expert, knowing so well what is wrong or right ?

Second, what's the comment about killing fish about ? Personally I choose to get rid of the aquarium and living specimen, and am only interested in getting and keeping dead specimen. What is the difference in gaining "knowledge", between having live or dead specimen ? Unless you believe that the behavior in captivity is representing natural behavior ?
"Killing fish" can be interpretated in several ways. One who helps a fish with a swimbladder infection out of it's misery by putting it into the freezer, is "killing" it. Someone trying "impossible" cohabs, is also killing it.

Third, what's your problem with Frank and Daniël ? I think it's fair to say they are some of the few who actually are a profit to this hobby. No one knows all about piranhas, or in fact we all don't know very much since there is little known at all, but they are the ones who at least know what ís known.
What's your problem with them ? Are they a threat to you, since you're "know-all" attitude gets revealed, showing you're just as ignorant about piranhas like most of us ?

Back ontopic.
Personally I believe this is going to be one of the many cohabs that will end up in mortalities. That of course, is your free choice. 
It would be nice though, if you kept us updated with observations, descriptions and videos of the behavior you notice.
By documenting as good as possible what is happening, also the things that go wrong, we all can learn about it.


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## s4awd

memento said:


> ....It would be nice though, if you kept us updated with observations, descriptions and videos of the behavior you notice.
> By documenting as good as possible what is happening, also the things that go wrong, we all can learn about it.


What he said.


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## s4awd

So wait a sec. Can I put exodons with my black piranha?


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## Mr. Hannibal

The main problem with Bruner is once he notice others don't buy his "knowledge" he starts calling other people names, and that's not fair... i found him very inmature and disrespectful, he takes away more than what he gives to this forum... and yes Bruner, i've lost many fish the past 22 years and maybe i was responsible of some casualties but i've always tried to do my best and help others...


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## Soul Assassin

/note: never give/sell Ps to the OP


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## shaneb

Frank, How many of the fish that are on your site have you yourself actually kept in a aquarium setting?


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## hastatus

shaneb said:


> Frank, How many of the fish that are on your site have you yourself actually kept in a aquarium setting?


Its listed on opefe. Go look it up.


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## hastatus

s4awd said:


> So wait a sec. Can I put exodons with my black piranha?


Sure. They make a good snack for the rhomb when they are not feeding off its scales or each other


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## shaneb

> Its listed on opefe. Go look it up.


Also wondering if there is a spot on there about your trips and your own study's?


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## hastatus

shaneb said:


> Its listed on opefe. Go look it up.
> 
> 
> 
> Also wondering if there is a spot on there about your trips and your own study's?
Click to expand...

If I had a dime each time I got asked that question at fury... you have a problem with reading too?


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## hastatus

memento said:


> There are some things I just don't understand about your comments Bruner.
> First, how can it be you say nobody really knows anything about piranhas, while at the same time you present yourself like an expert, knowing so well what is wrong or right ?
> 
> Second, what's the comment about killing fish about ? Personally I choose to get rid of the aquarium and living specimen, and am only interested in getting and keeping dead specimen. What is the difference in gaining "knowledge", between having live or dead specimen ? Unless you believe that the behavior in captivity is representing natural behavior ?
> "Killing fish" can be interpretated in several ways. One who helps a fish with a swimbladder infection out of it's misery by putting it into the freezer, is "killing" it. Someone trying "impossible" cohabs, is also killing it.
> 
> Third, what's your problem with Frank and Daniël ? I think it's fair to say they are some of the few who actually are a profit to this hobby. No one knows all about piranhas, or in fact we all don't know very much since there is little known at all, but they are the ones who at least know what ís known.
> What's your problem with them ? Are they a threat to you, since you're "know-all" attitude gets revealed, showing you're just as ignorant about piranhas like most of us ?
> 
> Back ontopic.
> Personally I believe this is going to be one of the many cohabs that will end up in mortalities. That of course, is your free choice.
> It would be nice though, if you kept us updated with observations, descriptions and videos of the behavior you notice.
> By documenting as good as possible what is happening, also the things that go wrong, we all can learn about it.


The problem with learning this way is there are always people lining up to disprove it. Seems to an endless line. Who suffers? First the fish that some hobbyist profess to love and then the hobby itself. Just sad to know that no matter how many times this has been repeated the mentality remains the home aquarium IS the amazon.


----------



## shaneb

I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM READING JUST NAVIGATING YOUR SITE..... I went there and looked around couldnt find what I was looking for so I asked the guy who owns the site. If your site was setup better and the navigation was easier to use then maybe you wouldnt be getting asked the same questions over and over.

For the record..

I was just curious and was wanting to learn more about the scientific side. I thought you were one of the more knowledgeable people on p's and was wanting to read your first hand accounts. Sorry for being interested in what you have done and put out there for us to learn from...


----------



## hastatus

shaneb said:


> I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM READING JUST NAVIGATING YOUR SITE..... I went there and looked around couldnt find what I was looking for so I asked the guy who owns the site. If your site was setup better and the navigation was easier to use then maybe you wouldnt be getting asked the same questions over and over.
> 
> For the record..
> 
> I was just curious and was wanting to learn more about the scientific side. I thought you were one of the more knowledgeable people on p's and was wanting to read your first hand accounts. Sorry for being interested in what you have done and put out there for us to learn from...


Your apology is accepted.

There is a search button on the home page
Use it.


----------



## shaneb

I have found some information I was looking for using that method. I found the species you have owned that way (Pretty impressive I must say) but still cant get the search to show me the trips and research from them trips you yourself have done.. I'll keep looking though...

I have never said anything negative to or about you.. Does the shitty attitude towards me come from the fact I am friends with Bruner?


----------



## Grosse Gurke

Come on people....

Frank...shaneb wasnt calling you out...he was simply interested in your experience/background. I think you misread his intent.

Back on topic...Im not sure why people get so riled up when this comes up. Anyone can do a simple search and find that mixing Pygocentrus and Serrasalmus is not promoted or celebrated on this forum. It stands to reason the OP knew what kind of reaction his post would bring. I think a better tactic is to Inform the OP that this is not groundbreaking...but yet another tragic case of been there done that....and then ignore the post. The more attention and energy you give this kind of post....the more attractive a tank like this becomes to a new hobbyist who wants to be the first ever to make it work.


----------



## hastatus

shaneb said:


> I have found some information I was looking for using that method. I found the species you have owned that way (Pretty impressive I must say) but still cant get the search to show me the trips and research from them trips you yourself have done.. I'll keep looking though...
> 
> I have never said anything negative to or about you.. Does the shitty attitude towards me come from the fact I am friends with Bruner?


The shitty attitude comes from years and years of dealing with hobbyists who rather argue me than talk about the science. My trips have nothing to do with what I know about piranhas. Bill Fink, the world authority went to south america one time. His work on piranhas is unquestioned. Yet if he came on fury he would be slautered here. I have not gone to south america, even though i've been offered free trips. I don't need to go. I have people who live there who contact me for ID help. Including collectors and exporters. I've been in the jungles. Don't need to relive that.

So if I come off as an asshole to hobbyists why do you suppose that is? Read Bruner and others before him and you will get your answer. Then look up people I've helped and you will see a different pattern.


----------



## hastatus

Grosse Gurke said:


> Come on people....
> 
> Frank...shaneb wasnt calling you out...he was simply interested in your experience/background. I think you misread his intent.
> 
> Back on topic...Im not sure why people get so riled up when this comes up. Anyone can do a simple search and find that mixing Pygocentrus and Serrasalmus is not promoted or celebrated on this forum. It stands to reason the OP knew what kind of reaction his post would bring. I think a better tactic is to Inform the OP that this is not groundbreaking...but yet another tragic case of been there done that....and then ignore the post. The more attention and energy you give this kind of post....the more attractive a tank like this becomes to a new hobbyist who wants to be the first ever to make it work.


Jeff. I don't mis-read intent. Up to this point I did not l know who he was until he told me he's friends with Bruner. I suspected it. But kept an open mind directing him to opefe. Then he followed the usual patterns of bruner-like people. I make no apologies for my reaction. Fury has a long history of allowing members to abuse senior members or those in the science community to be driven out. Here again is another example of it.


----------



## shaneb

See thats where I am confused.. I wasnt arguing with you nor did I have a hidden agenda. I had no idea you personally had never been to south america. I have read stuff on the net about p's and figured if I was going to really read up on it may as well be from the guy who is very active in a forum I belong too. This way if I didnt understand something I would be able to ask...

I wasnt implying that your knowledge is only good if you had been there yourself. I assumed ( and wrongly) that you had been there yourself and was wanting to read about your adventures. I just thought it would be cool to read some things and be able to have a intelligent conversation with you..

I understand why your guard is up but you need to lighten up a bit as I was only asking because I was honestly just interested in learning ...



> Then he followed the usual patterns of bruner-like people.


How so?


----------



## hastatus

shaneb said:


> See thats where I am confused.. I wasnt arguing with you nor did I have a hidden agenda. I had no idea you personally had never been to south america. I have read stuff on the net about p's and figured if I was going to really read up on it may as well be from the guy who is very active in a forum I belong too. This way if I didnt understand something I would be able to ask...
> 
> I wasnt implying that your knowledge is only good if you had been there yourself. I assumed ( and wrongly) that you had been there yourself and was wanting to read about your adventures. I just thought it would be cool to read some things and be able to have a intelligent conversation with you..
> 
> I understand why your guard is up but you need to lighten up a bit as I was only asking because I was honestly just interested in learning ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then he followed the usual patterns of bruner-like people.
> 
> 
> 
> How so?
Click to expand...

Very well ask your questions.

How so is a pattern that follows from friends. Best left alone.


----------



## BRUNER247

Before any of this garbage I pm'd you Frank introduced myself n said hi. Not days later your talkn sh*t. You & combi do nothing but twist words around n talk sh*t anyway you can. For hundredth time I don't claim to know everything & I've never stated everyone knows nothing but you guys throw that up every chance you get. You guys insult me & whine about me calln you names hilarious! Ill admit I'm a asshole but never until its warranted. Your string of asshole-ness is 50 some pages long in breeding section for all to see(what hasn't been lost or locked for one reason or another) as for me not caring about these fish or this hobby you must be off your meds old man. Don't act like you've seen my fish, know how long I've kept them or my feeling toward them. What you did to Shane is exactly what I'm talkn about. He asks simple question n your a ass. Find ANYONE on this forum that I was a ass to before they wanna talk sh*t about me. Goodluck with that! Cause even with you Frank(knowing how you are from reading all back pages)I tried to be nice from the get go. You wanna be a ass n talk sh*t. Game on old man. You wanna play nice then I'm sorry for whatever I said that might offended you in anyway. Same for you combi. & Hannibal I've lost fish also. I shouldn't have even brought up your name because as far as I know you've actually been pretty cool. So I do apologize to you Hannibal. I'm not here to argue n fight but if members are gonna call me wanna-be hobbist or I that I don't care about my fish or just wanna talk sh*t let's do it! I'm sick of the word twisting. Like when I said the fish Heiko had in alchol I said they had no value. I ment $$$ wise of course they're valuable in scientific way. Which is why they needed to be discribed but was Heiko gonna get rich off a couple preserved dead fish? NO. What he did was no different than with the other 600+ fish he's found. But yet you all twist it into something totally different. I said you act like nobody here knows anything & combi twists it to I say I think nobody here knows anything. But like the 30 other posts I'm sure you'll read the sh*t how you want n twist everything around so I'm putting down members & whatnot. Anyhow I'm not running off like the others so feel free to talk all the sh*t, twist it all like a pretzel all ya want.


----------



## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> Before any of this garbage I pm'd you Frank introduced myself n said hi. Not days later your talkn sh*t. You & combi do nothing but twist words around n talk sh*t anyway you can. For hundredth time I don't claim to know everything & I've never stated everyone knows nothing but you guys throw that up every chance you get. You guys insult me & whine about me calln you names hilarious! Ill admit I'm a asshole but never until its warranted. Your string of asshole-ness is 50 some pages long in breeding section for all to see(what hasn't been lost or locked for one reason or another) as for me not caring about these fish or this hobby you must be off your meds old man. Don't act like you've seen my fish, know how long I've kept them or my feeling toward them. What you did to Shane is exactly what I'm talkn about. He asks simple question n your a ass. Find ANYONE on this forum that I was a ass to before they wanna talk sh*t about me. Goodluck with that! Cause even with you Frank(knowing how you are from reading all back pages)I tried to be nice from the get go. You wanna be a ass n talk sh*t. Game on old man. You wanna play nice then I'm sorry for whatever I said that might offended you in anyway. Same for you combi. & Hannibal I've lost fish also. I shouldn't have even brought up your name because as far as I know you've actually been pretty cool. So I do apologize to you Hannibal. I'm not here to argue n fight but if members are gonna call me wanna-be hobbist or I that I don't care about my fish or just wanna talk sh*t let's do it! I'm sick of the word twisting. Like when I said the fish Heiko had in alchol I said they had no value. I ment $$$ wise of course they're valuable in scientific way. Which is why they needed to be discribed but was Heiko gonna get rich off a couple preserved dead fish? NO. What he did was no different than with the other 600+ fish he's found. But yet you all twist it into something totally different. I said you act like nobody here knows anything & combi twists it to I say I think nobody here knows anything. But like the 30 other posts I'm sure you'll read the sh*t how you want n twist everything around so I'm putting down members & whatnot. Anyhow I'm not running off like the others so feel free to talk all the sh*t, twist it all like a pretzel all ya want.


Anyone one else care to comment? I just read the first line then got bored.


----------



## memento

@Bruner: you didn't answer my question. And please try to use the enter button some more... it gave me a headache reading your post. That's not meant in a negative way, but it's just ain't easy to red without brakes in it...

@ shaneb: being into S-America is no need for gaining knowledge, you're right about that. As long as you use the reliable information provided by people who have been there, it's still a good way to learn.
Personally I try to read as much as possible, and what I've read is partly mentioned HERE...

Not very much, but enough to make me realise we don't know that much at all about piranhas. And just enough, to make me realise guys like Bruner are completely offtrack. Thatś why I prefer science. It's based on lots of research, opposed to smart-ass "knowledge".


----------



## shaneb

Thank you for the link memento..


----------



## hastatus

memento said:


> @Bruner: you didn't answer my question. And please try to use the enter button some more... it gave me a headache reading your post. That's not meant in a negative way, but it's just ain't easy to red without brakes in it...
> 
> @ shaneb: being into S-America is no need for gaining knowledge, you're right about that. As long as you use the reliable information provided by people who have been there, it's still a good way to learn.
> Personally I try to read as much as possible, and what I've read is partly mentioned HERE...
> 
> Not very much, but enough to make me realise we don't know that much at all about piranhas. And just enough, to make me realise guys like Bruner are completely offtrack. Thatś why I prefer science. It's based on lots of research, opposed to smart-ass "knowledge".


That's a lot of material. I have boxes and boxes of hard copy of manuscripts dating back quite a few years. Most are in German and French. A few in Spanish. Read them all. Used them to construct opefe. I have material that I get requests from some well known people in the science arena to provide. Im just a librarian in the strict sense.


----------



## memento

Frank the Librarian









Must be nice to have read that much and see the changes that have been made the past centuries... 
I haven't read that much yet. Looks like a long list maybe, but all printed they still fit into only 6 maps, on just one shelf









Our luck is, that yóu already read everything so we only have to read on OPEFE


----------



## hastatus

memento said:


> Frank the Librarian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Must be nice to have read that much and see the changes that have been made the past centuries...
> I haven't read that much yet. Looks like a long list maybe, but all printed they still fit into only 6 maps, on just one shelf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our luck is, that yóu already read everything so we only have to read on OPEFE


Not everything yet, still some things out there that hasn't crossed my desk. But enough to call bs when I see or read it on fury.


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

To me there is a huge difference in trying to cohab one species and trying to cohab various species in the same tank. With one species where there are often fatalities I would recommend only people with at least intermediate experience try to cohab them and not beginners. Even though there is a chance of fatalities there is also a chance at breeding which I beleive is important to sustain this hobby in the long run. When there is significant reward that could offset any fatalities then there is value in a cohab.

I however do not beleive in attempting to cohab a mixed group of species as in my opinion there is no good to come out of it. They are not going to breed with the other species and will not do anything else special. There is however a good chance they will kill eachother now or down the road so having dead fish is not worth the benifit of being able to say you "cohabed" them though at the present time people seem to wrongly think that a month long "cohab" is somehow a sucssess when in reality it is not nearly long enough of a time frame to call it a sucssess. If you come back a couple years from now with at least 75% of the original fish still healthy living together then there is some validity in the statement though when most people see people try these so called cohabs it lasts a month and they get rid of the fish when they start to kill eachother.


----------



## hastatus

CLUSTER ONE said:


> To me there is a huge difference in trying to cohab one species and trying to cohab various species in the same tank. With one species where there are often fatalities I would recommend only people with at least intermediate experience try to cohab them and not beginners. Even though there is a chance of fatalities there is also a chance at breeding which I beleive is important to sustain this hobby in the long run. When there is significant reward that could offset any fatalities then there is value in a cohab.
> 
> I however do not beleive in attempting to cohab a mixed group of species as in my opinion there is no good to come out of it. They are not going to breed with the other species and will not do anything else special. There is however a good chance they will kill eachother now or down the road so having dead fish is not worth the benifit of being able to say you "cohabed" them though at the present time people seem to wrongly think that a month long "cohab" is somehow a sucssess when in reality it is not nearly long enough of a time frame to call it a sucssess. If you come back a couple years from now with at least 75% of the original fish still healthy living together then there is some validity in the statement though when most people see people try these so called cohabs it lasts a month and they get rid of the fish when they start to kill eachother.


Agree with majority of your opinion. To me personally I think putting a same species together if its an attempt to breed them is legitiment. Fish like S rhombus is not a good idea unless you have a huge volume of water. Something most hobbyists don't have in the home aquarium. Smaller species like S elongatus, S sanchezi, S geryi for example are worth tries. But you still need a large aquarium but not necessarily out of reach for some here. Be good to your fish. One day they may no longer be available.


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

Bruner is not the "smart-ass" u guys say he is. Hes hrlped me a ton from the start,
You too frank , you and your website are whats keeping me interested in the fish along with my passion


----------



## Smoke

hastatus said:


> To me there is a huge difference in trying to cohab one species and trying to cohab various species in the same tank. With one species where there are often fatalities I would recommend only people with at least intermediate experience try to cohab them and not beginners. Even though there is a chance of fatalities there is also a chance at breeding which I beleive is important to sustain this hobby in the long run. When there is significant reward that could offset any fatalities then there is value in a cohab.
> 
> I however do not beleive in attempting to cohab a mixed group of species as in my opinion there is no good to come out of it. They are not going to breed with the other species and will not do anything else special. There is however a good chance they will kill eachother now or down the road so having dead fish is not worth the benifit of being able to say you "cohabed" them though at the present time people seem to wrongly think that a month long "cohab" is somehow a sucssess when in reality it is not nearly long enough of a time frame to call it a sucssess. If you come back a couple years from now with at least 75% of the original fish still healthy living together then there is some validity in the statement though when most people see people try these so called cohabs it lasts a month and they get rid of the fish when they start to kill eachother.


Agree with majority of your opinion. To me personally I think putting a same species together if its an attempt to breed them is legitiment. Fish like S rhombus is not a good idea unless you have a huge volume of water. Something most hobbyists don't have in the home aquarium. Smaller species like S elongatus, S sanchezi, S geryi for example are worth tries. But you still need a large aquarium but not necessarily out of reach for some here. Be good to your fish. One day they may no longer be available.
[/quote]

I also think that if you're putting them together (same species), it might be better to wait until you have adult specimens to put together. For example, putting 2 juvie Rhoms together obviously wont breed anytime soon and will more likely kill each other. I don't know if having adult specimens together means lessened aggression (vs Juvie specimens together), but I am suspecting so based on a few places that I saw where larger Rhoms were actually being kept together. I'd like to hear the experienced members thoughts about this.

I've read that the S. Marginatus only covers a 13 square foot territory, and uses it for both hunting and breeding... and that's in the wild... so scale that proportionally to the home aquaria, and it seems very possible that hobbyists should be able to breed this species - given a large enough tank.


----------



## David.

So far it appears Co. Caine's cohab is doing much better than the Piranha Fury cohab. So there you have it. Mixing Rhoms/Natteri has a higher sucess rate and will last longer than the people that purchase them in a cohab enviroment.


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

David. said:


> To me there is a huge difference in trying to cohab one species and trying to cohab various species in the same tank. With one species where there are often fatalities I would recommend only people with at least intermediate experience try to cohab them and not beginners. Even though there is a chance of fatalities there is also a chance at breeding which I beleive is important to sustain this hobby in the long run. When there is significant reward that could offset any fatalities then there is value in a cohab.
> 
> I however do not beleive in attempting to cohab a mixed group of species as in my opinion there is no good to come out of it. They are not going to breed with the other species and will not do anything else special. There is however a good chance they will kill eachother now or down the road so having dead fish is not worth the benifit of being able to say you "cohabed" them though at the present time people seem to wrongly think that a month long "cohab" is somehow a sucssess when in reality it is not nearly long enough of a time frame to call it a sucssess. If you come back a couple years from now with at least 75% of the original fish still healthy living together then there is some validity in the statement though when most people see people try these so called cohabs it lasts a month and they get rid of the fish when they start to kill eachother.


Agree with majority of your opinion. To me personally I think putting a same species together if its an attempt to breed them is legitiment. Fish like S rhombus is not a good idea unless you have a huge volume of water. Something most hobbyists don't have in the home aquarium. Smaller species like S elongatus, S sanchezi, S geryi for example are worth tries. But you still need a large aquarium but not necessarily out of reach for some here. Be good to your fish. One day they may no longer be available.
[/quote]
I agree with this addition that if you do cohab to have a suitable enviroment. Some fish will require a large tank to cohab then a similar sized fish.


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

Smoke said:


> I also think that if you're putting them together (same species), it might be better to wait until you have adult specimens to put together. For example, putting 2 juvie Rhoms together obviously wont breed anytime soon and will more likely kill each other. I don't know if having adult specimens together means lessened aggression (vs Juvie specimens together), but I am suspecting so based on a few places that I saw where larger Rhoms were actually being kept together. I'd like to hear the experienced members thoughts about this.
> 
> I've read that the S. Marginatus only covers a 13 square foot territory, and uses it for both hunting and breeding... and that's in the wild... so scale that proportionally to the home aquaria, and it seems very possible that hobbyists should be able to breed this species - given a large enough tank.This was on opefe. Im sure Frank could tell you his source for the info but i have been saying for a while people should try to breed marginatus when they can get a group as a 180g is 12sq ft which is practically their size of territory in the wild which is rare to have in captivity. I small group IMO could do well in a tank of 100g plus.


I don't however agree with getting adult fish over juvies. Adult fish may be at breeding size though I have seen adult fish be very territorial especially ones that have been kept solitary for the years prior to being introduced into a group. For fish that are less territorial this would work well but for fish like piranhas I beleive it would be better to raise a group of juvies and hopefully when they reach adulthood they are comfortable in their enviroment and have established their dominance heiarchy to breed.


----------



## hastatus

Smoke said:


> To me there is a huge difference in trying to cohab one species and trying to cohab various species in the same tank. With one species where there are often fatalities I would recommend only people with at least intermediate experience try to cohab them and not beginners. Even though there is a chance of fatalities there is also a chance at breeding which I beleive is important to sustain this hobby in the long run. When there is significant reward that could offset any fatalities then there is value in a cohab.
> 
> I however do not beleive in attempting to cohab a mixed group of species as in my opinion there is no good to come out of it. They are not going to breed with the other species and will not do anything else special. There is however a good chance they will kill eachother now or down the road so having dead fish is not worth the benifit of being able to say you "cohabed" them though at the present time people seem to wrongly think that a month long "cohab" is somehow a sucssess when in reality it is not nearly long enough of a time frame to call it a sucssess. If you come back a couple years from now with at least 75% of the original fish still healthy living together then there is some validity in the statement though when most people see people try these so called cohabs it lasts a month and they get rid of the fish when they start to kill eachother.


Agree with majority of your opinion. To me personally I think putting a same species together if its an attempt to breed them is legitiment. Fish like S rhombus is not a good idea unless you have a huge volume of water. Something most hobbyists don't have in the home aquarium. Smaller species like S elongatus, S sanchezi, S geryi for example are worth tries. But you still need a large aquarium but not necessarily out of reach for some here. Be good to your fish. One day they may no longer be available.
[/quote]

I also think that if you're putting them together (same species), it might be better to wait until you have adult specimens to put together. For example, putting 2 juvie Rhoms together obviously wont breed anytime soon and will more likely kill each other. I don't know if having adult specimens together means lessened aggression (vs Juvie specimens together), but I am suspecting so based on a few places that I saw where larger Rhoms were actually being kept together. I'd like to hear the experienced members thoughts about this.

I've read that the S. Marginatus only covers a 13 square foot territory, and uses it for both hunting and breeding... and that's in the wild... so scale that proportionally to the home aquaria, and it seems very possible that hobbyists should be able to breed this species - given a large enough tank.
[/quote]
Where did you read this 13 foot square territory? I don't see it mentioned in the opefe species. However I do compare its requirements similar to S rhombeus with a minimum 900g tank.


----------



## Smoke

> Where did you read this 13 foot square territory? I don't see it mentioned in the opefe species. However I do compare its requirements similar to S rhombeus with a minimum 900g tank.


I think it was here... but could have been another abstract...

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/bjb/v63n2/a02v63n2.pdf


----------



## hastatus

Never mind. I went and looked at my own page. Yes it id written and the info is cited correctly based on under water observations.

Even I have to look at opefe lmao


----------



## Smoke

CLUSTER ONE said:


> Never mind. I went and looked at my own page. Yes it id written and the info is cited correctly based on under water observations.
> 
> Even I have to look at opefe lmao


----------



## hastatus

According to Ivan and Antonio the cited authorities, marginatus is a prolific breeder crowding out S maculatus. As we know maculatus has been bred in captivity. So to me, it seems plausible to breed marginatus in the aquarium.


----------



## Smoke

hastatus said:


> According to Ivan and Antonio the cited authorities, marginatus is a prolific breeder crowding out S maculatus. As we know maculatus has been bred in captivity. So to me, it seems plausible to breed marginatus in the aquarium.


I've also read that they are good parents and take extensive care of the nest etc.


----------



## hastatus

Smoke said:


> According to Ivan and Antonio the cited authorities, marginatus is a prolific breeder crowding out S maculatus. As we know maculatus has been bred in captivity. So to me, it seems plausible to breed marginatus in the aquarium.


I've also read that they are good parents and take extensive care of the nest etc.
[/quote]
Most of them.


----------



## primetime3wise

CLUSTER ONE said:


> To me there is a huge difference in trying to cohab one species and trying to cohab various species in the same tank. With one species where there are often fatalities I would recommend only people with at least intermediate experience try to cohab them and not beginners. Even though there is a chance of fatalities there is also a chance at breeding which I beleive is important to sustain this hobby in the long run. When there is significant reward that could offset any fatalities then there is value in a cohab.
> 
> I however do not beleive in attempting to cohab a mixed group of species as in my opinion there is no good to come out of it. They are not going to breed with the other species and will not do anything else special. There is however a good chance they will kill eachother now or down the road so having dead fish is not worth the benifit of being able to say you "cohabed" them though at the present time people seem to wrongly think that a month long "cohab" is somehow a sucssess when in reality it is not nearly long enough of a time frame to call it a sucssess. If you come back a couple years from now with at least 75% of the original fish still healthy living together then there is some validity in the statement though when most people see people try these so called cohabs it lasts a month and they get rid of the fish when they start to kill eachother.


Agree with majority of your opinion. To me personally I think putting a same species together if its an attempt to breed them is legitiment. Fish like S rhombus is not a good idea unless you have a huge volume of water. Something most hobbyists don't have in the home aquarium. Smaller species like S elongatus, S sanchezi, S geryi for example are worth tries. But you still need a large aquarium but not necessarily out of reach for some here. Be good to your fish. One day they may no longer be available.
[/quote]
I agree with this addition that if you do cohab to have a suitable enviroment. Some fish will require a large tank to cohab then a similar sized fish.
[/quote]

hard to say what is needed, for sure...because, as you guys are aware, only rbp and s. maculatus seem to breed readily in aquariums...and even with macs i would have thought by now we would have seen more members breeding them. maybe not so readily? or less people are keeping them together. it could be a fad, a few years ago it seemed we had several members keeping them together.

when i bred s. maculatus, a 125g was sufficient for fish in the 5"-6" range. however, the fish were still pretty skittish around me, even in a heavily planted tank. i even think a 75g would be sufficient to get at least 1 pair.

with 3 of my of my geryi in a 125g, although i am trying, i just don't see them going at it in less than a 180g. and even then it is probably a long shot. but, from seeing how GG's were in a 180g, compared to my 125g, i have some hope. but still, like i said, i am not 100% sure what is needed to get these fish going...it may come down to simulating the wet/dry seasons. and of course a huge tank would help.


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## hastatus

primetime3wise said:


> To me there is a huge difference in trying to cohab one species and trying to cohab various species in the same tank. With one species where there are often fatalities I would recommend only people with at least intermediate experience try to cohab them and not beginners. Even though there is a chance of fatalities there is also a chance at breeding which I beleive is important to sustain this hobby in the long run. When there is significant reward that could offset any fatalities then there is value in a cohab.
> 
> I however do not beleive in attempting to cohab a mixed group of species as in my opinion there is no good to come out of it. They are not going to breed with the other species and will not do anything else special. There is however a good chance they will kill eachother now or down the road so having dead fish is not worth the benifit of being able to say you "cohabed" them though at the present time people seem to wrongly think that a month long "cohab" is somehow a sucssess when in reality it is not nearly long enough of a time frame to call it a sucssess. If you come back a couple years from now with at least 75% of the original fish still healthy living together then there is some validity in the statement though when most people see people try these so called cohabs it lasts a month and they get rid of the fish when they start to kill eachother.


Agree with majority of your opinion. To me personally I think putting a same species together if its an attempt to breed them is legitiment. Fish like S rhombus is not a good idea unless you have a huge volume of water. Something most hobbyists don't have in the home aquarium. Smaller species like S elongatus, S sanchezi, S geryi for example are worth tries. But you still need a large aquarium but not necessarily out of reach for some here. Be good to your fish. One day they may no longer be available.
[/quote]
I agree with this addition that if you do cohab to have a suitable enviroment. Some fish will require a large tank to cohab then a similar sized fish.
[/quote]

hard to say what is needed, for sure...because, as you guys are aware, only rbp and s. maculatus seem to breed readily in aquariums...and even with macs i would have thought by now we would have seen more members breeding them. maybe not so readily? or less people are keeping them together. it could be a fad, a few years ago it seemed we had several members keeping them together.

when i bred s. maculatus, a 125g was sufficient for fish in the 5"-6" range. however, the fish were still pretty skittish around me, even in a heavily planted tank. i even think a 75g would be sufficient to get at least 1 pair.

with 3 of my of my geryi in a 125g, although i am trying, i just don't see them going at it in less than a 180g. and even then it is probably a long shot. but, from seeing how GG's were in a 180g, compared to my 125g, i have some hope. but still, like i said, i am not 100% sure what is needed to get these fish going...it may come down to simulating the wet/dry seasons. and of course a huge tank would help.
[/quote]
I remember several years, when I put up the requirements for breeding this and other species a well known former fury member heavily criticized me for it. What he didn't understand or comprehend it was a directional guide. You have to know something about the water these fish are found in order to promote spawning conditions.

My addressing these issues in each species page opened a barrage of hate. Never quite understood it. How can you want to breed piranhas without knowing where to start?

Anyway bigger tank seems to be better for these fish. But it all boils down to the fish itself. If the conditions are right for the fish it will choose to breed.


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## Co. Caines

Interesting what's the breeding size for rhoms? N from what I read most if not all piranhas you can never tell the sex of the species. So would it not come down to share luck of getting opposite sex of these species in the same tank.


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## primetime3wise

^^^^ Frank, you've got that right. a 125g is ok for 3 of my geryi, but i plan to go with a 180g+ down the road a little, so i can house all 5 of mine and have better odds. 3 seems to be a good # of geryi for my 125g as they are so territorial...though it seems, they are finally starting to tolerate each other much better...but if i toss the other two in i bet the fighting would start up again really badly.

i also think we (as a community of potential breeders) will have to simulate the wet/dry seasons and/or, have as close as possible, of "natural" conditions for the harder to breed species. i don't get why people would be so upset with that. it seems reasonable and logical to assume. maybe they just didn't want to be told that it is impossible to breed rhoms in a 75g lol. or they felt bad for not being able to afford the fish a huge tank. or they just didn't want to hear about how difficult of a task it is.


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## hastatus

Co. Caines said:


> Interesting what's the breeding size for rhoms? N from what I read most if not all piranhas you can never tell the sex of the species. So would it not come down to share luck of getting opposite sex of these species in the same tank.


Maturity size (eggs are ripe) is around 5 or 6 inches if I remember correctly. Captive breeding was over 11 inches. Probably smaller in the wild for breeding purposes.


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## Co. Caines

The guy at my LFS said that rhoms breeding stage is around 12+ and until them its hard to tell the actually sex of the fish. Is he correct?


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## hastatus

Co. Caines said:


> The guy at my LFS said that rhoms breeding stage is around 12+ and until them its hard to tell the actually sex of the fish. Is he correct?


As a general observation males are smaller. But that's not carved in rock. I had people swear their rhombeus was female. Sliced them open found gonads and parasite damage in intestinal tract. Clearly a male piranha. Seen same with P nattereri. Girth is usually not a good indicator for sexing. Neither is elongation. The sure fire way to know for sure is they breed for you or you slice them open.


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## Co. Caines

that makes breeding of solo piranhas nearly impossible. unless you can get a large number of them to co-hab when they are at the sexual maturity level.


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## CLUSTER ONE

That is the challenge as you cnat just get a male and female and hope they breed you need a group which means a large tank.


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## CLUSTER ONE

hastatus said:


> I remember several years, when I put up the requirements for breeding this and other species a well known former fury member heavily criticized me for it. What he didn't understand or comprehend it was a directional guide. You have to know something about the water these fish are found in order to promote spawning conditions.
> 
> My addressing these issues in each species page opened a barrage of hate. Never quite understood it. How can you want to breed piranhas without knowing where to start?
> 
> Anyway bigger tank seems to be better for these fish. But it all boils down to the fish itself. If the conditions are right for the fish it will choose to breed.


I think guidlines are great to have even if they are not tried and true yet. There are alot of recommendations out there and i still don't know how effective half of them are and what fators are key and which could be discarded. With trial and error on reds and macs i think the community will get a better understanding on the main factors that encourage breeding rather then "do these things and hope for the best". With a basic knowlege of any southamerican fish one can find a group a breeding techniques to try though untill sucssess is reached and proves which techniques are useful, we just have to keep trying differnt methods


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## hastatus

CLUSTER ONE said:


> I remember several years, when I put up the requirements for breeding this and other species a well known former fury member heavily criticized me for it. What he didn't understand or comprehend it was a directional guide. You have to know something about the water these fish are found in order to promote spawning conditions.
> 
> My addressing these issues in each species page opened a barrage of hate. Never quite understood it. How can you want to breed piranhas without knowing where to start?
> 
> Anyway bigger tank seems to be better for these fish. But it all boils down to the fish itself. If the conditions are right for the fish it will choose to breed.


I think guidlines are great to have even if they are not tried and true yet. There are alot of recommendations out there and i still don't know how effective half of them are and what fators are key and which could be discarded. With trial and error on reds and macs i think the community will get a better understanding on the main factors that encourage breeding rather then "do these things and hope for the best". With a basic knowlege of any southamerican fish one can find a group a breeding techniques to try though untill sucssess is reached and proves which techniques are useful, we just have to keep trying differnt methods
[/quote]
True. The guidelines are just that gives understanding of water conditions. Its not carved in stone for everyone or fish.


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