# irritan info



## shoe997bed263

i have two irritans and i have read the info that was on opfee. it said that a well planted 100g tank could possibly keep irritans and have a small chance at breeding. i was thinking of trying it in a 180g tank that i will well plant. do u guys think it is possible and worth a try or am i just going to lose a fish. i realize that the odds r against me but every species has to mate at some point. and if it does work how amazing would that be. well is it worth a shot or not


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## 33truballa33

id ont know if its worth a try cause with 2 ur chances of having male/female are relatively lower than if u had more than two.. and irritans are crazy as hell.. my lil irritan goes after my rhom all dya long so i dunno how that would turn out....


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## hastatus

> shoe997bed263 Posted Today, 09:02 PM
> i have two irritans and i have read the info that was on opfee. it said that a well planted 100g tank could possibly keep irritans and have a small chance at breeding. i was thinking of trying it in a 180g tank that i will well plant. do u guys think it is possible and worth a try or am i just going to lose a fish. i realize that the odds r against me but every species has to mate at some point. and if it does work how amazing would that be. well is it worth a shot or not


You have to start somewhere and the generalized information on water chemistry and habitat at OPEFE are good starting points.

Good luck and keep us informed on how it goes. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


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## KrazyCrusader

Man that's really risky. I'm all for trying to breed Serra's but putting 2 grown Irritans together.








If you do this keep a very very close eye on the fish.


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## hastatus

> KrazyCrusader Posted Today, 11:12 PM
> Man that's really risky. I'm all for trying to breed Serra's but putting 2 grown Irritans together.
> If you do this keep a very very close eye on the fish.


If he read the OPEFE material, I'm sure he's quite aware of the risk. That's why the heavily planted tank is suggested. Provides hiding places.

It's seems odd you would have hesitation on this attempt. From what I've read and been passed on to me, your following some experimenter yourself.


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## shoe997bed263

well i was really expecting to just be called a complete moron but i will try. will be getting the 180 in a couple of days and hopefully with some bio spira and existing filters will be up and running in no time. will keep everyone posted


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## shoe997bed263

the article says "moderate" filteration. what does that mean i always over filter and was planning on doing the same with the 180. i assume the water parameters should still be kept as perfect. should i not over filter as i normally do


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## hastatus

> shoe997bed263 Posted Today, 12:00 AM
> well i was really expecting to just be called a complete moron but i will try. will be getting the 180 in a couple of days and hopefully with some bio spira and existing filters will be up and running in no time. will keep everyone posted


Good luck, just keep in the back of your mind (and in front of your eyes) that these fish swim solitarily in their native waters. IF there is a remote chance you may have a pair, then your odds of getting them to breed is still out there. It takes about 2 years for p's to adjust but that is not carved in stone. Just feed them well and keep their water chemistry within normal parameters.

Attempting to breed fish is not the same as attempting to create a "group or shoal" of fish. I hope you acknowledge why "moron" would not fit in with what you are doing.


> shoe997bed263 Posted Today, 12:09 AM
> the article says "moderate" filteration. what does that mean i always over filter and was planning on doing the same with the 180. i assume the water parameters should still be kept as perfect. should i not over filter as i normally do


S. irritans are not reverine fishes per se. So you don't need the heavy aeration (power heads) as used by S. rhombeus care. A moderate filtration means using a mechanical filter and just the return water from it. I use overfiltration myself, but I would think (and Hollywood can correct me if I'm wrong about this), it may not be a good idea to over filtrate as the nesting area needs some quiet areas.


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## elTwitcho

The only real problem I see with this is that you have no way of knowing if you got a male/female pair


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## KrazyCrusader

hastatus said:


> If he read the OPEFE material, I'm sure he's quite aware of the risk. That's why the heavily planted tank is suggested. Provides hiding places.
> 
> It's seems odd you would have hesitation on this attempt. From what I've read and been passed on to me, your following some experimenter yourself.
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## hastatus

One other suggestion and not mentioned in my OPEFE article, S. irritans may need some surface cover (floating plants). For some reason that makes sense to me because of the abundance of floating plants in most of these Serrasalmus breeding areas.


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## shoe997bed263

thanx for the help. got the 180 today using bio spira so hopefully will be up and running in a couple of days. will keep everyone posted. if anyone has any more info that will help this work please let me know


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## 33truballa33

n e ideas on what size these guys are mature at?? pm'd u shoe


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## hastatus

> 33truballa33 Posted Today, 08:06 PM
> n e ideas on what size these guys are mature at?? pm'd u shoe


Its not big secret, they are sexually mature the same as most other Serrasalmin. 1 1/2 years or 4-5 inches, whichever comes first.


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## 33truballa33

hastatus said:


> Its not big secret, they are sexually mature the same as most other Serrasalmin. 1 1/2 years or 4-5 inches, whichever comes first.
> [snapback]841849[/snapback]​


 i apologize for being a "newbie" and not knowing that


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## hastatus

Apology accepted newbie. Next time check out the pinned thread. I have info posted there.


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## KRS one

i find this very interesing myself, i love how you, hollywood and other pople are tring new things besides reds

have you thought about getting three irritan insted of 2, so your chances will be higher, or is somthing like that just out of the question


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## hastatus

> irate Posted Today, 08:19 PM
> i find this very interesing myself, i love how you, hollywood and other pople are tring new things besides reds
> 
> have you thought about getting three irritan insted of 2, so your chances will be higher, or is somthing like that just out of the question


Ideally 4 or 6 would be better. But the problem with S. irritans in a closed environment is not an ideal for the fish. The number 3 does give it a better chance of having 1 male and 2 females or vice versa. One never knows so the risk increases.


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## HOLLYWOOD

Just read through this thread and must say that Frank has dedicated most of his time to provide detailed information shared by experts in the field. Were lucky to have OPEFE as a resource.

As far as nesting area, I agree provide a quiet free clear of current area. It also helps to place your tank in a traffic free area.



hastatus said:


> S. irritans are not reverine fishes per se. So you don't need the heavy aeration (power heads) as used by S. rhombeus care. A moderate filtration means using a mechanical filter and just the return water from it. I use overfiltration myself, but I would think (and Hollywood can correct me if I'm wrong about this), it may not be a good idea to over filtrate as the nesting area needs some quiet areas.
> [snapback]839528[/snapback]​


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## KrazyCrusader

irate said:


> i find this very interesing myself, i love how you, hollywood and other pople are tring new things besides reds
> 
> have you thought about getting three irritan insted of 2, so your chances will be higher, or is somthing like that just out of the question
> [snapback]843444[/snapback]​


Frank is breeding Caribes, Hollywood is only breeding Reds, and this is the first i've heard recently someone giving Irritans a try. Is there anyone else trying to breed any of the similar Serra's?

I commend anyone that is daring enough to try and breed a rare Serra. Good luck to everyone with their endeavors


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## KRS one

hollywood is or was trying to breed piraya, but i did not know that frank was trying to breed caribe

new question, can you cross breed like a red and tern? as in if you had all the room and perfect conditions is it possible at all


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## KrazyCrusader

irate said:


> hollywood is or was trying to breed piraya, but i did not know that frank was trying to breed caribe
> new question, can you cross breed like a red and tern? as in if you had all the room and perfect conditions is it possible at all
> [snapback]844951[/snapback]​


Hollywood gave that project up for fear of losing the fish. The question about the Terns would be a great from for Frank. I'm curious myself. Frank is still working on the Caribes trying to follow his old friends methods. Truballa is also working at this project.


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## shoe997bed263

well i have been thinking of getting another irritan so i could have a better chance but i would get a larger tank if i was going to do that i really dont have the money. what i am planning on doing is planing 3/4 of the tank very heavy and leave the 1/4 of the tank with no plants. i have a nice sand and gravel mixture. also am in the process of looking for some floating plants. the tank is not quite cycled yet but i am excited to get started.


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## KrazyCrusader

Going to a 180 Gallon with more fish could improve the chances of your success. You are dealing with highly aggressive Serra's so it might not work out for the best but if at first you don't succede find out why then try again!


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## hastatus

> KrazyCrusader Posted Today, 01:54 PM
> Going to a 180 Gallon with more fish could improve the chances of your success. You are dealing with highly aggressive Serra's so it might not work out for the best but if at first you don't succede find out why then try again!


Use each failure as a guide in what went wrong. Learn from it and modify what you are doing. It might be something simple as too many plants or wrong aeration. Or to much heat.


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## RBPIRANHA 1

hopefully breeding irritans will suceed.


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## KrazyCrusader

IF there is anybody else that's going to take up trying to breed Irritans you could always buy a batch of them when they are really small give them adequete space and grow them out.


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## shoe997bed263

still waiting for tank to cycle. i dont have the money right now for another irritan but i was thinking of getting two more and putting them in my 55's and try putting one in the 180 to have 3 in there but am worried about losing one.


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## shoe997bed263

well tomorrow is the big day. my tank has cycled. i use bio spira and filters from an existing tank and here r my parameters ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 10, ph 6.5 and water temp 80. so here goes nothing i am going to try to add the one irritan and then a couple of hours later add the other one. i have to save up and get a digi cam so i can take some pics. cross your fingers for me.


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## 33truballa33

y not add them at the same time?? would they establish territory if one is in b4 the other? eh probably not.. best of luck to u man


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## KrazyCrusader

Yeah good luck.


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## b_ack51

Good luck with the breeding project. A few people have bred serras and some keep them together, just keep an eye on them.


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## shoe997bed263

day three update:
well amazingly enough there has been no fin biting. i do not think that either of them have moved from their respective corners. one has been in the back left corner behind some plants the other one is in the complete opposite of the tank behind some drift wood. will keep u guys posted


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## 33truballa33

congrats on the lack of aggression hopefully it will progress


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## skelator

I just wanted to take a quick second to express my interest in your endeavour and to say best of luck!









Thanks for keeping us posted...


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## hastatus

That's what I love about P-FURY, its an open forum to discusss Pbreeding and nothing is kept in secret.


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## Grosse Gurke

About keeping smaller irritans together. I have five 2"-3" irritans that have been together for 4 months with no problems. I love the little guys...they go nuts when it is feeding time. By far my most entertaining tank. 
Is this a breeding project in the works...who knows, I guess we will see.


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## shoe997bed263

one now has a couple of small nips on his back fin but all still seems well


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## hastatus

keep them fed, perhaps a decoy fish.......like some small characins or cichlids.


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## shoe997bed263

i have put a couple of large feeders in the tank along with some rosies.


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## KrazyCrusader

grosse gurke said:


> About keeping smaller irritans together. I have five 2"-3" irritans that have been together for 4 months with no problems. I love the little guys...they go nuts when it is feeding time. By far my most entertaining tank.
> Is this a breeding project in the works...who knows, I guess we will see.
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Tank size?


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## shoe997bed263

a large nip today. i think that i am going to add some salt during my water change tonight. it is not too bad of a nip so i am going to let them go. the one has lost all he red that was on his anal fin. dont know what this means but thouhgt that i would add it.


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## hastatus

Easy on the salt treatment. Its not usually necessary for fin nips. They heal by themselves with little to no help. The last thing you want to do is screw with the water parameters. Take a test and see how they rate. If you have a spike in ammonia (which salt can cause) then you will likely get more aggressive behavior, particularly if the temp is higher than recommended. Fish become more irritable.


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## Death in #'s

grosse gurke said:


> About keeping smaller irritans together. I have five 2"-3" irritans that have been together for 4 months with no problems. I love the little guys...they go nuts when it is feeding time. By far my most entertaining tank.
> Is this a breeding project in the works...who knows, I guess we will see.
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dam gg start a thread on that with some pics


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## KrazyCrusader

Gosh I kinda feared this for you. Initial aggression this early on can't be a good sign.


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## shoe997bed263

ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 15, temp 80, ph 6.7 i wont add salt but did my normal water change 10%. i do a 10-15% water change every other day with all my tanks should i continue this wiht this tank or should i let it go a week and do a larger one once a week?


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## 33truballa33

i think u should continue doing ur 10%.. i remember on a thread a long time ago a guy had serras i think rhoms living together and he claimed that there was a hormone that builds up in the water but by doing plenty and frequent water changes he was able to lower aggression.. this isnt fact but i just remember reading this when i was searching thru old threads


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## shoe997bed263

woke up this morning and the one that had the nips has most of his tail gone now. i dont think it is something that could kill him but i am still worried. i am havin a real hard time wiht this now and am really debating to just stop this all togeather. i have not noticed any different behavior in my irritans althouhg it has not been that long of a time.


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## hastatus

Drop the temperature down, to about 76-77F. Here are the Orinoco river temps from OPEFE water chemistry page: pH: 4.5-7 (6.0); 2-8 dH (6); 75-82°F (24-28°C). The high range you have the fish at is summer temperature, not a good idea. Isolate the fish with the bit off tail fin if it is ALL gone. No sense losing it. Keep it separate until the tail regenerates then we can work on re-introducing it.


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## shoe997bed263

i read those water temps and here r mine now temp 77, ph 6.5, dh 6. i put him back into his 55g. the other one is lovin a 180 to himself. is there anything else that i can do that u know of? they dont breed in the summer so is there any other way to simulate their breeding season?


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## hastatus

There is nothing to go by, to say they don't breed in the summer. We can assume they don't, but this is an unknown species when it comes to needs. The idea the fish had its tail bit off can suggest a lot of things, pre-breeding behavior, especially if they were doing a tail slapping dance before hand or just plain aggression.

No way to measure this other from other behavior of similar species in the genus. I'm afraid you are basically on your own and I don't want to suggest something to you that could harm your fish further. On another point, keeping them separate is good because some species like S. maculatus the separation can induce breeding behavior. Keep in mind, just because those 2 were originally put together doesn't mean "breeding behavior" will start almost immediately. That is a common mistake most hobbyist make in thinking their fish are ready. Your looking at 1 to 2 years of pre-conditioning the fish before anything major happens. Once in a rare occurence, you might get lucky in having a pair spawn for you within a few months, but those are indeed rare occurences.


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## shoe997bed263

well in that case i will be persistant. heal him up and get him back in the tank as soon as possible.


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## Killduv

Good luck with the breeding attempt!!!


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## hastatus

There's no right way or wrong way. These are the building blocks to find out how we can induce breeding. We also don't know if you have 1 male or 1 female so the project is further complicated by that. Patience is your ally in this.


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## KrazyCrusader

I was reading down the thread about about to reply to the post about the fact it could be some pre-breeding aggression. People who have bred Spilos/Macs have stated that when breeding the fish they thought most certainly that the fish were going to kill each other during the breeding behavior. The fact that they could be two dominant same sex piranha's is kinda haunting. You might leave them together a bit thinking they are pre-mating just to find them getting punished over and over again. Good luck with your experiment.


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## shoe997bed263

i am really starting to think about my "experament" here. do u think that it is cruel to my fish to persist on putting them throuhg this. even if i do have a male and a female as a fish owner is it cruel to put my fish in a dangerous situation. am i any better than that brandon guy who put his reds wiht the rhom?


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## jamesdelanoche

you want to do this for science (and money), one noble cause and one conveinant cause. As long as you are doing it with a good heart and are paying the best attention to your fish's needs, then by all means you are right in what you are doing. There is a line between cruelty and persistance and i don't think you are crossing it.


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## shoe997bed263

thanx. i just (as well as every one here) put so much time and effort into our tanks and fish it is just hard to put your fish in a situation that u know is going to be harmfull to them.


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## hastatus

> jamesdelanoche Posted Today, 10:35 PM
> you want to do this for science (and money), one noble cause and one conveinant cause. *As long as you are doing it with a good heart and are paying the best attention to your fish's needs, then by all means you are right in what you are doing*. There is a line between cruelty and persistance and i don't think you are crossing


That basically says it all Shoe. You're under our supervision even though we are not there with you. No one here in good concious would tell you to do something that would harm your fishes. But you are the only person in control and only you can tell what is going on. So be careful but have faith.


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## HOLLYWOOD

I felt the same way when this happend to my pirayas. I ended up separating the pair to heal wounds also discontinued further attempts. Couldnt have said it better than jamesdelanoche. Cheers



shoe997bed263 said:


> thanx. i just (as well as every one here) put so much time and effort into our tanks and fish it is just hard to put your fish in a situation that u know is going to be harmfull to them.
> [snapback]868646[/snapback]​


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## Kilohead36

Actually, I dont know if the other guys feel this way but I am very supportive of you and believe you have best interest of the fish at heart.. Keep us updated..


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## shoe997bed263

well the fin is starting to heal. i think that it will be completly healed by the end of next week. i am going to try to stick this thing out and see what happens. i am taking extra measures to make sure that the water conditions r perfect and hopefully they will just breed so i can get them apart as fast as possible


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## hastatus

I don't have a visual on how your tank is set-up. Perhaps you can take a photo and put it on here. I have a couple Serrasalmus species I'm testing a theory on. Provide it some good hiding spots (caves for example). Don't put that fish back into the tank until its completely healed and we can discuss how to reintroduce the fish back in.


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## shoe997bed263

i dont have a camera and am really tight on money right now. i will hopefully have one by the end of march. i have a mix of sand and gravel substrate, there is a semi large piece of drift wood on one side of the tank. i have had a friend who works at lfs come over and he planted the left side of the tank and part of the back ( i have no clue about plants) the right side of the tank is left open other than a small piece of drift wood in the right corner. dont have a light on the tank. hope this helps.


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## shoe997bed263

the one that is still in the tank has made his territory behind some plants on the left side and the other one had made his home behind the drift wood on the right side.


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## hastatus

You might (if you have space in the tank) have your friend create a cave where the fish can go in and out, perhaps in the corner away from the established niche on that present occupant. There will be fin bites, but I'm thinking if you take the present occupant out for a moment or two and then reintroduce at the same time (again) this way your reintroduced fish has a chance to find cover, along with the present occupant. In otherwords start all over again. I suspect the present occupant will go back to its original spot (its programmed in its head now). Your other one should seek cover in the cave.


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## shoe997bed263

well the p's fin that was bit is alot better now and i think that i am going to add him to the tank in the morning. i think that i am going to see if i can get them to cohabitate till the end of the month and then start to simulate the wet season and then the dry season and see what happens.


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## hastatus

> shoe997bed263 Posted Today, 11:13 PM
> well the p's fin that was bit is alot better now and i think that i am going to add him to the tank in the morning. i think that* i am going to see if i can get them to cohabitate *till the end of the month and then start to simulate the wet season and then the dry season and see what happens.


That's the rub, they don't cohabitate. No pirana does. Again its a word that is lost in terminology. They may be found together (not necessarily on friendly terms), but male and female only come together to breed. Males fight, as do females.


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## shoe997bed263

sorry did not mean cohabitate. if they can stand each other long enough. i wish there was a way to tell between male and female


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## hastatus

> shoe997bed263 Posted Yesterday, 11:23 PM
> sorry did not mean cohabitate. if they can stand each other long enough. i wish there was a way to tell between male and female


I know what you mean.


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## PiranhaMaster

hastatus said:


> shoe997bed263 Posted Today, 11:13 PM
> well the p's fin that was bit is alot better now and i think that i am going to add him to the tank in the morning. i think that* i am going to see if i can get them to cohabitate *till the end of the month and then start to simulate the wet season and then the dry season and see what happens.
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> [snapback]879778[/snapback]​
Click to expand...

If both fish are alive and in the tank together it doesn't matter if they fight every second of their existance they both are cohabitants of the tank. The term Cohabitate is just that. Now if you want to say they don't shoal that is the correct term and argument. you can have a lake with 2 fish in it, one at each end and they still cohabitate that lake. even if they never leave their side and have no clue eachother exist.


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## hastatus

> PiranhaMaster Posted Today, 11:46 AM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Feb 6 2005, 06:19 AM)
> QUOTE
> shoe997bed263 Posted Today, 11:13 PM
> well the p's fin that was bit is alot better now and i think that i am going to add him to the tank in the morning. i think that i am going to see if i can get them to cohabitate till the end of the month and then start to simulate the wet season and then the dry season and see what happens.
> 
> That's the rub, they don't cohabitate. No pirana does. Again its a word that is lost in terminology. They may be found together (not necessarily on friendly terms), but male and female only come together to breed. Males fight, as do females.
> 
> *If both fish are alive and in the tank together it doesn't matter if they fight every second of their existance they both are cohabitants of the tank. The term Cohabitate is just that. Now if you want to say they don't shoal that is the correct term and argument. you can have a lake with 2 fish in it, one at each end and they still cohabitate that lake. even if they never leave their side and have no clue eachother exist.
> *



Evidently you can't read/comprehend what I wrote to shoe997. IF you can't contribute to the discussion, stay out of it. Last and only warning to you PiranhaMaster.


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## shoe997bed263

well added the other irritan to the tank and so foar so good. the irritan immediatly went to his side of the tank that he was at before. he went into the cave and has been in there since. so atleast we made it through the day and part of the night with out any nips. will keep u posted


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## hastatus

Sounds good.







A bit more info for you since I was getting ready to go watch the Super Bowl when the thread was nearly derailed. Co-habitate is a misused word. If one looks at the meaning, it implies living together. The dictionary defines it like a married couple or living in an apartment together. The piranas nature does not permit it to "live together harmoniously" in a confined space. Therefore the meaning is lost when it is erroneously applied to confined areas. That would be the same for some one to state that a lion can cohabitate with a human because they share the same land. Let the lion meet up with the human, and they aren't going to kiss.:laugh: So while someone can claim the fish put together forcibly are "cohabitating" I suppose a human put into a lion's cage is also co-habitating with the lion, while the lion is getting ready for its next meal.


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## WorldBelow07

wish you had a camera shoe!! this sounds great


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## KrazyCrusader

hastatus said:


> Sounds good.
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> A bit more info for you since I was getting ready to go watch the Super Bowl when the thread was nearly derailed. Co-habitate is a misused word. If one looks at the meaning, it implies living together. The dictionary defines it like a married couple or living in an apartment together. The piranas nature does not permit it to "live together harmoniously" in a confined space. Therefore the meaning is lost when it is erroneously applied to confined areas. That would be the same for some one to state that a lion can cohabitate with a human because they share the same land. Let the lion meet up with the human, and they aren't going to kiss.:laugh: So while someone can claim the fish put together forcibly are "cohabitating" I suppose a human put into a lion's cage is also co-habitating with the lion, while the lion is getting ready for its next meal.
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Not to derail this however-
I went to the Imax and they had a preview of the new Imax Lions or whatever. Seeing the Lions up close roaring in my face on that huge screen and you reminding me of living in a cage with one. It would really suck unless it was a tame friendly lion.








Anyway Don't worry Shoe. I'm still recovering from I.P.T. It stands for Improper Piraña Terminology. It's a really hard addiction to get over but I'm taking it one day at a time.


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## hastatus

Looking up words in a dictionary is basically a guide on acceptable words which are defined. It doesn't mean its use is concrete for every situation. For example, you can co-habitate "peaceful" fishes that don't try and eat each other. Though I have seen goldfish try to eat guppies! It all comes down to, do we want to use a word that implies something else or find a word that best describes what is actually going on when 2 fish that only meet up together by accident or design in the wild. BTW, sympatric is the proper term which means found together. Much like P. nattereri is sympatric with S. rhombeus. That don't mean you can put them together or to use the loose term; make them cohabitate. That's a disaster in a fish tank that few people will argue with........on second thought, I'm not so sure about that anymore.


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## shoe997bed263

we or u frank should make up your own piranha grouping word that is just meant for piranha. u r the expert on p's and all the members will just adopt the word and it will eventually become common. then we wont have this problem


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## hastatus

The term "group" has usage with piranha authorities. That's the basis for my using it. Here are some internet dictionary definitions. Then you can understand why this term has meaning and not "co-habitate".

The noun "group" has 3 senses in WordNet.

*1. group, grouping -- (any number of entities (members) considered as a unit)*
2. group, radical, chemical group -- ((chemistry) two or more atoms bound together as a single unit and forming part of a molecule)
3. group, mathematical group -- (a set that is closed, associative, has an identity element and every element has an inverse).

Sympatric 
Closely related species that have overlapping ranges in nature but do not interbreed.

Sometimes you have uninformed people trying to be "correct" or guessing at terms without having a first clue what they are writing about.


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## hastatus

So if I were to define all of this that would be "acceptable" for keeping piranas. I would define it thus:

Your single species of piranas are a group. More than 1 species (ie; P. nattereri with 1 S. rhombeus would be called a sympatric aquario. This way you are educating your public that even though P. nattereri do not cohabitate, they are indeed sympatric (found together). Thus your meaning is more clear without implying that P. nattereri and S. rhombeus are "peaceful" together as the term "cohabitate" would imply. You can then qualify to people what to expect when mixing species.


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## shoe997bed263

well, my update for today on my irritans. they both have not left their hiding spots even for food.


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## hastatus

That's good so long as they don't see each other as food.







Keep us updated.


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## shoe997bed263

both fish r not eating. i am going to simulate the rainy season then the dry season in the next couple of weeks. they both have not come out of thier hiding spots


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## BigChuckP

This was a great thread until it was derailed because of an argument over the meaning of a word. I am glad to see this thread back on track!

I think that you are in a tough situation shoe, not knowing if they are fighting because they are on the brink of breeding or because they are of the same sex.

Someone has to be the pioneer on this subject!


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## shoe997bed263

both ate today. i was alittle shocked. they both ate shrimp but they did not see each other. so far so good


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## hastatus

> shoe997bed263 Posted Today, 06:23 PM
> both ate today. i was alittle shocked. they both ate shrimp but they did not see each other. so far so good


Are they just staying in their respect areas? If so, that is good.


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## WorldBelow07

any updates shoe?


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## shoe997bed263

well it is a sad last 24 hrs. my irritan breeding attemp is over. i lost one this morning. here is what happend. had to go to a study table last night around 6:00 fed all my p's before i left. i saw that both irritans had eaten and went back to their corners. the one that was nipped pretty bad a couple of weeks ago had a small nip but it was not that bad. i came home from the study table around 9:30 went down stairs and the irritan that had the nip was upside down with bite marks on his underbelly and back to his back fin. his anal fin was completly gone and part of his chin was gone. the other irritan has a fin bite and a bloody lip. i immediatly took the badly hurt irritan into my empty 55g tank. i am amazed that he was still alive and that he made it through the night. this morning i checked on him and he was gone. i am still debating if i want to purchase another irritan to try it again. this feels like a member of my family has died.

my conclusion on this process and what i would do differenty in the future.

i am going to get a larger tank than a 180. i think that it is still not large enouhg to hide each fish enough. i am thinking of getting something close to a 300g tank.

i think i am going to try this during the spring time and try to immediatly simulate the rainy season and try to follow the natural seasons. as summer comes i will go into the dry season. rather than simulate the rainy season whenever.

serra species dont mix!!!!!!

P.S. on top of that great news my 4'' rbp got past the tank divider and was eatin by my 8'' caribe last night also. it has been a hard 24 hrs in the house here.


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## skelator

Oh jees, what a bummer







I was really excited for you, and the community.

Sorry to hear of your loss(es), I hope you don't give up. The 300 gallon idea does sound good, but like your current setup, there's still no garuntee. On the other hand, you'll be able to supply them with more hiding spots.

For today, I send you my condolensces in hopes that tomorrow, you'll be ready to try this again!


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## Kilohead36

Damn real sorry for your lost..I was looking forward to hearing good news. They say when it rains it pours..


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## hastatus

> shoe997bed263 Posted Today, 09:17 AM
> well it is a sad last 24 hrs. my irritan breeding attemp is over. i lost one this morning. here is what happend. had to go to a study table last night around 6:00 fed all my p's before i left. i saw that both irritans had eaten and went back to their corners. the one that was nipped pretty bad a couple of weeks ago had a small nip but it was not that bad. i came home from the study table around 9:30 went down stairs and the irritan that had the nip was upside down with bite marks on his underbelly and back to his back fin. his anal fin was completly gone and part of his chin was gone. the other irritan has a fin bite and a bloody lip. i immediatly took the badly hurt irritan into my empty 55g tank. i am amazed that he was still alive and that he made it through the night. this morning i checked on him and he was gone. i am still debating if i want to purchase another irritan to try it again. this feels like a member of my family has died.
> 
> my conclusion on this process and what i would do differenty in the future.
> 
> i am going to get a larger tank than a 180. i think that it is still not large enouhg to hide each fish enough. i am thinking of getting something close to a 300g tank.
> 
> i think i am going to try this during the spring time and try to immediatly simulate the rainy season and try to follow the natural seasons. as summer comes i will go into the dry season. rather than simulate the rainy season whenever.
> 
> serra species dont mix!!!!!!
> 
> P.S. on top of that great news my 4'' rbp got past the tank divider and was eatin by my 8'' caribe last night also. it has been a hard 24 hrs in the house here.


You've learned a sad truth.







So sorry for the loss, I was hoping that the test would prove better than it turned out and again, the beast won. But keep trying perhaps in the future this fish failure can be turned around for a success. A bigger tank is always better. If you can find out the basic key to a minimum requirement than that is 1/3 of the problem answered.


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## shoe997bed263

i really believe that 180g tank is too small. the length is just not there that is needed. i think with a super long tank it migh work out better. also next time i am going to use instant amazon. also let this be another proof that mixing serra species is not a good idea.


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## hastatus

Your remarks seem to qualify my statement in S. irritans breeding (OPEFE), anything less is wishful thinking:


> Because this species has never been bred in captivity, it is my recommendation that a 100 gallon or larger tank be used.


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## shoe997bed263

frank i really believe that u could change that 100g to 200g min. i think min being 100g is a little small. i know a guy in town here who says he has a 5'' irritan who herd about my attempt and is willing to sell me his for 130 bucks. i think that i am going to save up and do it. i am going to be getting rid of the 180g thouhg and try to get my hands on a large tank. i have a nice supply of bio spira so it should not take long to cycle.


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## shoe997bed263

i think that i was just upset about losing fish and i still am but the more that i think about it i am determined to try this again. i think there r some things that i will change and try different ideas. will keep every one posted. THE BEAST has not beat me yet


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## hastatus

> shoe997bed263 Posted Yesterday, 10:04 PM
> * frank i really believe that u could change that 100g to 200g min.* i think min being 100g is a little small. i know a guy in town here who says he has a 5'' irritan who herd about my attempt and is willing to sell me his for 130 bucks. i think that i am going to save up and do it. i am going to be getting rid of the 180g thouhg and try to get my hands on a large tank. i have a nice supply of bio spira so it should not take long to cycle.


On your recommendation I will step it up to 200g.


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## icedizzle

First off sorry for you loss... Losing fish always sucks









I have an idea for your next attempt if your try... I was just wondering if it was possible to put a screen in the middle of the tank between the two fish you are attempting to breed because I have heard or read some where that scientists speculate as too the fact that during breeding the piranha will realse horomones to calm the other fish for the duration of the breeding. If that were the case you may be able to observe the fish until they start exhibiting breeding behaviour and then remove the screen.

If that turned out to be the case you may be able to breed many aggresive species and prove the scientists speculations right. If not sorry for wasting your time. Just an idea


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## shoe997bed263

hey at this point i will take any help i can get. i will see what frank says about it. then again i am trying to simulate as natural setting as i possible can to try to get them to mate. i dont know if that would be it but i will try it.


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## icedizzle

shoe997bed263 said:


> hey at this point i will take any help i can get. i will see what frank says about it. then again i am trying to simulate as natural setting as i possible can to try to get them to mate. i dont know if that would be it but i will try it.
> [snapback]892377[/snapback]​


Yea I guess that wouldn't be so "natural" but then again if it were to work you wouldn't lose anymore fish... or one hopes.

I would also be interested in hearing what frank says. He after all knows alot more about piranha then I do.


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## BigChuckP

shoe997bed263 said:


> frank i really believe that u could change that 100g to 200g min. i think min being 100g is a little small. i know a guy in town here who says he has a 5'' irritan who herd about my attempt and is willing to sell me his for 130 bucks. i think that i am going to save up and do it. i am going to be getting rid of the 180g thouhg and try to get my hands on a large tank. i have a nice supply of bio spira so it should not take long to cycle.
> [snapback]891729[/snapback]​


A larger tank may do the trick but to say that 200 should be the min may not be accurate. I say this because you do not know if you had a male and a female, could have been two ms or two fs, therefore you were doomed from the beginning. You might be unsuccessful in a 300 gall too, but that is not to say 300 should be the recomended min. 
Its a tough experiment and i wish you good luck.

Is instant amazon like black water extract or something else?


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## Grosse Gurke

I have heard of something like this being done to breed very aggressive fish. They use a divider and have the breeding material on either side. The idea is for the eggs to attach and the furtilization is done with the divider in place.


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## icedizzle

Grosse Gurke said:


> I have heard of something like this being done to breed very aggressive fish. They use a divider and have the breeding material on either side. The idea is for the eggs to attach and the furtilization is done with the divider in place.
> [snapback]892638[/snapback]​


I see, so are you saying that the eggs would be deposited on one side of the divider while they male would fertilze them then through the divider?

Edit: I also had a thought then along those lines... would the female lay her eggs without stimulation from the male... if she did lay them by herself would it be possible to remove her from the tank and let the male immidiatly fertilize them?


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## shoe997bed263

hey thats great info guys. if that is the case this process would be alot less stressfull


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## hastatus

1) It's always better to start with the biggest tank you can afford. Originally, species like S. maculatus were bred in huge tanks. Now they are being bred in smaller tanks (40g or larger), but it has to start somewhere. Which is why I recommend hobbyists start with the largest tank. If you had no prior experience in breeding egglayers, much less pirana then you are going to be doing a lot of "wishing" in these tests to see what works. Its not to discourage, just to enlighten.

2) The screen that GG suggests may work and then it might not. Never seen it done with P's, but not to say there is no point in trying.



> icedizzle Posted Today, 12:38 AM
> First off sorry for you loss... Losing fish always sucks
> 
> I have an idea for your next attempt if your try... I was just wondering if it was possible to put a screen in the middle of the tank between the two fish you are attempting to breed because *I have heard or read some where that scientists speculate as too the fact that during breeding the piranha will realse horomones to calm the other fish for the duration of the breeding. *If that were the case you may be able to observe the fish until they start exhibiting breeding behaviour and then remove the screen.
> 
> If that turned out to be the case you may be able to breed many aggresive species and prove the scientists speculations right. If not sorry for wasting your time. Just an idea


pheronomes are what you are writing about. That doesn't calm a fish down, it makes them horney.


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## icedizzle

haha... interesting, well then I guess that wouldn't quite work then would it. O well I thought I would suggest it anyway.

When the fish are "horny" then... does this make them more or less aggressive or does it affect them at all in that sense.


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## hastatus

If the fish is not ready or immature that's where the problem begins and regardless of how much pheronome is released it can lead to some nasty biting and mortality. You can see pre-mating examples with same sex in young fish to immature to do anything, but once they are subadult or adult, then you have to watch them carefully for severe biting.


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## shoe997bed263

so if i purchase a 5'' irritan that would still be considered immature correct. by the way this is a awsome thread. i have really learned alot


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## hastatus

5" inches makes it near adult size (6 TL).


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## Grosse Gurke

I dont know anything about breeding with a divider...just that I have heard it being done with very aggressive fish. It does make sense because the male sprays into open water anyways but getting them comfortable with a divider....that is another issue.


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## shoe997bed263

well my friend and i just put a 300g tank in my basement and i will be getting plant fert, sand and gravel in the tank by the end of the week and i am about to start cyclin it. will be using biospira so it should not take much time. by the end of next month i should have it planted and lights so hopefully i can start this process over again.


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## 33truballa33

try bacter vital.. it takes 5 days to cycle but is more economical than bio spira.. i used it in my 125


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## Death in #'s

shoe997bed263 said:


> well my friend and i just put a 300g tank in my basement and i will be getting plant fert, sand and gravel in the tank by the end of the week and i am about to start cyclin it. will be using biospira so it should not take much time. by the end of next month i should have it planted and lights so hopefully i can start this process over again.
> [snapback]906332[/snapback]​










dam bro i give you alot of credit
and i hope things are better this time
are you gonna try 3 in the tank?better odds for a male/female
and lots of dithers


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## Kilohead36

If you can you should start taking pics of steps. day 1.etc.. Hope everything goes well


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## shoe997bed263

i really have got to get a camera. i spend all my money on my fish and fish equipment. i have not decided if i am going to get 2 or 3. i am going to simulate the wet and dry season and there is a post in here of a pvc system that simulates rain and i think that i am goin to build that. thanx for the support


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## Killduv

Good Luck in your breeding attempts.


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## icedizzle

yea good luck man. Its great that you don't give up








Obviously the more you try it the better the odds are going to be as you will know what to watch for.


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## killerbee

i wish u the best of luck too


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## shoe997bed263

i suppose that i should have asked this earlier but are there any specific plants that i should be putting in this tank? is it possible to get plants that are in the same river as irritans?


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## b_ack51

Not sure which plants exactly to use, but I am thinking of adding Java Moss. Figured good for small fish and fry, maybe nesting?


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## shoe997bed263

i will def be getting some nesting material. thinking java moss.


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## hastatus

I'll find some plants for you, from that region. I'll post tomorrow, no time tonight.


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## b_ack51

Frank, you wouldn't know of any good plants for Geryi's natural environment?


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## hastatus

Yes, I do. I'll post S. geryi's in a different thread later today. In the meantime (as I'm sure once I post this it will make other forums, but at least you all will know where it came from FIRST.:laugh: Here is S. irritans:

Paspalum repens, Eichhornia spp and Salvinia spp. These are river plants. Those you might have to special order or do a search of aquarium plants for a source.
Just copy paste each name in google and do a search. Here is the first one for you:
Paspalum.

Also floaters will also work, though more difficult indoors such as hyachinthe (Eichhornia spp) which is widespread in the Amazon and parts of Venezuela. Their habitat is very similar to the Los Llanos so any aquatic plant found there is applicable.


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## hastatus

No point in making a new thread on S. geryi. I went back and read the material and basically S. geryi area is disturbed by Hydroelectric plants and much of the S. geryi habitat is sandy area. Some plants (difficult for home aquario) are all floaters with the exception of a few. I put the genera name down as it might be easier to find some species easier found than trying to get the actual species. Much of these plants are endangered in the Rio Xingu.

Water lilies, Ceratophyllaceae and Nymphaecacea

Water poppies, Limnocharitaceae

Water plantains, Alismataceae

Reeds and sedges, Cyperaceae

Frog-bits, Hydrochariaceae

Duckweeds, Lemnaceae


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## b_ack51

Frank,
For substrate I was thinking of going with gravel, but after reading your post, would you think it would be better to do all sand or mix gravel/sand. Or pebble/sand mix. I will look into some of the plants mentioned below, see what I can find around here. Thanks for the info. Now just gotta find some pics.



hastatus said:


> No point in making a new thread on S. geryi. I went back and read the material and basically S. geryi area is disturbed by Hydroelectric plants and much of the S. geryi habitat is sandy area. Some plants (difficult for home aquario) are all floaters with the exception of a few. I put the genera name down as it might be easier to find some species easier found than trying to get the actual species. Much of these plants are endangered in the Rio Xingu.
> 
> Water lilies, Ceratophyllaceae and Nymphaecacea
> 
> Water poppies, Limnocharitaceae
> 
> Water plantains, Alismataceae
> 
> Reeds and sedges, Cyperaceae
> 
> Frog-bits, Hydrochariaceae
> 
> Duckweeds, Lemnaceae
> [snapback]916843[/snapback]​


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## hastatus

S. geryi are found in sandy bottoms with clay mix. But since that would be a huge mess in the aquario, keep it simple. How you design your substrate would probably be a mix of sand and gravel, being careful not to get the sand to fine (like silica, great for sting rays, but lousy for what your doing). Smooth stones should also be scattered along the bottom, not to many. You want to design an igrape as close to it as possible to nature. Search google on that topic.


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## shoe997bed263

just got the tank cycled and planted wahoo. so now i am in the market to buy a irritan dont have the money right now but any supplier that wants to donate one for the sake of science is more than welcome lol


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## 33truballa33

hahhaah way to work the science theme... best of luck to u


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## shoe997bed263

33truballa33 said:


> hahhaah way to work the science theme... best of luck to u
> [snapback]927717[/snapback]​


sounds good huh...carefull dont step in the bullshit....odd's are it wont work lol


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## mori0174

shoe997bed263 said:


> 33truballa33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> hahhaah way to work the science theme... best of luck to u
> [snapback]927717[/snapback]​
> 
> 
> 
> sounds good huh...carefull dont step in the bullshit....odd's are it wont work lol
> [snapback]928352[/snapback]​
Click to expand...

I hope you have some luck this time around. These guys get real expensive after a while.


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## shoe997bed263

your telling me they are expensive but i really thing in the long run if i can do this it will really help advance our hobby.


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## 33truballa33

hey man if i go to venezuela mayb ill bring u sum back haha


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## mdmedicine

Just read through e thread from beginning to end. Shoe deserves a lot of credit. All of you who have helped him deserve it as well. 
Does anyone know of any suppliers who get their stock through unnatural breeding methods e.g., in vitro fertilization? I guess if the demand for rare piranhas was high enough, the profit motive would be high enough to attempt it. If the answer is no then every s species we find in our local fish store is wild caught? Selling thousands of baby RBP fry might be hard but I bet having a thousand or so baby rhoms would be profitable. I am hoping Frank might have some info about this. 
Good luck Shoe!


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## hastatus

On Second thought, might not be a good idea. Somebody is apt to get their fingers bit off.


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## mdmedicine

hastatus said:


> On Second thought, might not be a good idea. Somebody is apt to get their fingers bit off.
> [snapback]935963[/snapback]​


Thanks Frank!
I feel like I am back in undergrad genetics. LOL. So do you know of anyone who is doing this with Piranha of any species? 
MD


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## mdmedicine

hastatus said:


> On Second thought, might not be a good idea. Somebody is apt to get their fingers bit off.
> [snapback]935963[/snapback]​


LOL. Too Late...I already read the unedited thread. Don't worry...Would not have attempted that without great care and lots of precautions anyway but, you are right....someone may have! I have the unpleasant visual in my head now. LOL.


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## hastatus

NP, you have a PM in your inbox regarding it.


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## shoe997bed263

sorry folks my funds are a bit low right now cant get a irritan for another couple of weeks


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## icedizzle

shoe997bed263 said:


> sorry folks my funds are a bit low right now cant get a irritan for another couple of weeks
> [snapback]936792[/snapback]​


I don't think you should be apologizing for anything shoe. Afterall I don't see anyone else spending that kind of bling bling on "science".

P.S Apperently silk substrate will help the breeding... jk :rasp:


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## hastatus

> shoe997bed263 Posted Mar 16 2005, 09:03 PM
> sorry folks my funds are a bit low right now cant get a irritan for another couple of weeks


You do what you can with what you have. No one is demanding you do it (breeding S. irritans). The important thing is you have heart and desire. So try again when you have funds. Learn from the loss and don't expect miracles or the fish to breed immediately. I see many attempts of breeding Serrasalmus species in the past years. Nearly every fish is pregnant whether its male or female according to the person trying it. They see what they want to see so people can go OOOOh, AHHHH when they read about it. ROFL. Point is, females always have eggs present, its getting the male to fertilize them is the problem without either eating each other. I told you from the start, expect failures. Sooner or later you might hit the jack pot (then again you might not).


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## jamesdelanoche

Honestly man, any money you spend is money spent on the conservation of the species, if you can develop ways to breed this fish, that means less will need to be imported, meaning the native populations wont be affected by the pet trade. I know what its like not having funds but trust me, we all appreciate what you are doing.


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## hastatus

jamesdelanoche is absolutely right.







While we are on this topic, referencing a pm I just received on my usage of "pregnant" fishes, that was meant as A JOKE.


> Nearly every fish is pregnant whether its male or female according to the person trying it.


 _Egglayers do not get pregnant. _Piranhas are oviparous or commonly known as egg scatterers. The eggs mature and ripen before being expelled or absorbed in the sac. Males can also have a bulging appearance usually attributable to over feeding or other problems. But since you can't ask the P what sex they are, just watch them carefully for any outwards signs of problems.









Good luck should you try this again.


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## shoe997bed263

well a guy i know said i can have his 6'' irritan so this weekend i am driving down to pick him up and we will start the proces up again will keep all of you posted


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## icedizzle

sounds awsome! you gonna get some pics this time around?


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## shoe997bed263

well i have not been on in awhile and i have had a divider up for right now so they cannot get at each other. i am having a brown algea problem and am not going to try this until i get rid of this problem will keep u guys updayed


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## icedizzle

Yea I'm no expert but I think you are doing the right thing by keeping them seperate till you can fix the alge problem.

Good luck


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## BigChuckP

shoe997bed263 said:


> well i have not been on in awhile and i have had a divider up for right now so they cannot get at each other. i am having a brown algea problem and am not going to try this until i get rid of this problem will keep u guys updayed
> [snapback]968361[/snapback]​


You just did a diy co2 system right, i think I saw a thread of yours in there about your algae problem. Are you doing the mix or co2 bottle?
I think it is a good idea to have live plants in the tank rather than fake ones just makes the tank a more natural environment. 
Cant wait till that blasted algae problem is gone. 
Good luck on the plants and breeding.


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## shoe997bed263

icedizzle said:


> Yea I'm no expert but I think you are doing the right thing by keeping them seperate till you can fix the alge problem.
> 
> Good luck
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [snapback]968665[/snapback]​


the goal of my experienment is obviously to get them to sex it up but i would like to make it as natural as possible so i am wondering if i should just let the algea go for a little bit and let them at it


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## hastatus

I personally wouldn't concern myself with the algae. Its actually beneficial unless its brown or hair algae. Algae is beneficial as it provides a food and also for zooplankton (microbes) should your eggs hatch and need instant food. It also provides side and front cover giving your fishes more privacy. Ultimately, if you don't care who see's it, leave it alone.


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## shoe997bed263

frank has spoken! i will remove the divider later when i get home


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## hastatus

My advice would be for you to wait until you can spend an entire day and night with them. To make sure nothing goes wrong before lifting that divider.


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## BigChuckP

I cant wait for some updates on this thread. Tis very exciting i think


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## shoe997bed263

sorry guys i was in a bad car crash and i just got out of the hosp so i am going to wait to git rid of the divider. i had my mother feed them but they have not had a water change in a while so i am going to do some water changes and et the parameters back in check. will keep you guys posted


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## 33truballa33

damn u ok?


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## icedizzle

jeeze I hope your ok man.... those piranha come second to your health for sure... get better


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## shoe997bed263

eh no worries what does not kill you only makes you stronger. alittle tired and bloodied but i am still kickin. i couldnt wait to see my p's lol


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## mori0174

good luck with the second try on this. Feel better soon


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## hastatus

I'm still following this. Glad your feeling better.


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## shoe997bed263

well i am really sorry for not posting in a while i have been in the hosp thanx to a drunk driver i will be having some more surgery to fix my shoulder, ribs and neck. i have had 4 surgeries in the past two weeks. i have not been home to take care of my fish and might have to get rid of them bc i will be rehabing for the next couple of months.


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## hastatus

There is NO RACE to breed these fish in captivity. Get well. That is far more important.


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## RBPIRANHA 1

hastatus said:


> There is NO RACE to breed these fish in captivity. Get well. That is far more important.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [snapback]1014492[/snapback]​


yeap







hope they don't die if you know what i mean














well good luck


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