# S.Brandtii housed together



## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Are there any members who have housed S.Brandtii together? This species is one of my new projects. The fish came in all beat up, and it took quite a while for them to heal. I choose to let them heal as a group and closely watch them. They interacted fine as a group. Then things appeared to change. There was one in particular that is constantly being picked on. It is the second largest in the group. It became damaged to the point it required separation. It spent about 3 weeks in a hospital tank, and then it started to swell in the belly region. I do not believe it was internal parasites, because I personally cleaned the fish when purchased. I remember the writings of Azuma when he mentioned a method of breeding the S.Maculatus. He would mention the female getting a slight bulge in the belly region. He outlined a method of separation and rejoining the fish. I have 4 brandtii together. The fish was re introduced to the colony, and the attack on it began again. They have either accepted the fish or stopped the attacks. All 4 are doing wonderful in a 100 gallon tank. They are on a 90% prepared food diet and voraciously eat all the chopped foods put in the tank. This fish does appear to hang closely with another S.Brandtii. The bulge remains.

I'm just sharing information and looking for some input. Here are some of the pics.

*Alone with the bulge*

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*Being moved to the Group*

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*Group shot with bulge*

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*Group shot in vegitation area*

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I can add pics of all 4 later tonight. 1 stays all by itself at the other end of the tank.


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## FIRE Newt MIKE 767 (Apr 11, 2005)

thats awsome dude im mixing my black pirnaha and my red together


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

FIRE Newt MIKE 767 said:


> thats awsome dude im mixing my black pirnaha and my red together
> [snapback]993035[/snapback]​


If that is your true desire proceed with caution.

I am looking for information about people who have kept S.Brandtii as a group.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

> He outlined a method of separation and rejoining the fish.


What method is this?


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

This is a direct quote from OPEFE

Azuma noted that once the fishes were ready to spawn the female begins to fill with eggs, though her abdomen does not swell very much....perhaps only 1.2 to 1.3 times its normal size. Like most mating piranhas, the male color darkens and its scale coloration is more brillient. When you see these changes happen and think you have a pair, separate them and condition them on a variety of foods, preferably alive.

You can then (after 2 weeks) try to breed them. The male is added first, then the female is added a day later. Here is where you must be careful. The male becomes very excited and may actually severely injure the female. But this is not carved in stone and not all males behave this way. Some males will actually wait up to 10 days before even showing any interest in spawning. According to Azuma, if it happens at all, it will usually happen (spawning) by the 18th days or more. Spawning begins in the late afternoon and continues for about three hours. The fish press close together near the bottom and male curls his anal fin under the female's abdomen, presumably to better insure fertilization of the eggs.

Here is the link it was found on.

*Method of sepperation and conditioning macualtus with ripe eggs*


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)




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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Look in the pinned threads above. There is S. brandtii information with Pygocentrus. But I'm sure there will be others. Give it time.


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## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

hastatus said:


> Look in the pinned threads above. There is S. brandtii information with Pygocentrus. But I'm sure there will be others. Give it time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i think hes lookin for ppl with pure branti shoals or groups


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

The pygo variable is definitely something not present. It is fascinating, and I wish all piranha colonies lasting success.

The more, I think about it. I will break down and follow the work of another. The fish will be removed, and placed on an extremely high protein diet for 2 weeks, and then re introduced into the colony. I will also do some research in to the dam of Three Marias, where P.Piraya and S.Brandtii have been documented to have spawned in nature.

I will report back any changes


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> 33truballa33 Posted Today, 10:59 AM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Apr 22 2005, 10:36 AM)
> Look in the pinned threads above. There is S. brandtii information with Pygocentrus. But I'm sure there will be others. Give it time.
> 
> ...


You misread my post silly.







I was pointing out we have S. brandtii vs Pygocentrus and eventually we will have S. brandtii vs S. brandtii as we presently have S. geryi vs. S. geryi.

But to answer the overall questions. Field research shows these fish are individualistic and don't group except when juveniles. I have a couple field reports posted in PSCI. Anyway, this forum is to view he aquario results. So let's move on.


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

When i kept my very large 10" brandtii together with my smaller female in a divided tank i noticed some very intresting behaviour. I think have remarked on this in past posts, but at the time i believed they were trying to spawn through the divider as they were circling and shaking.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Poseidon X said:


> When i kept my very large 10" brandtii together with my smaller female in a divided tank i noticed some very intresting behaviour. I think have remarked on this in past posts, but at the time i believed they were trying to spawn through the divider as they were circling and shaking.
> [snapback]993246[/snapback]​


That is very fascinating. I have personally thought of attempting to breed piranhas through a barrier. Many very aggressive cichlids are bred with barriers. I choose not to separate the fish. I will reflect upon Azuma again. When he mentions his serrasalmus breeding, he mentioned the male curling its tail around the female. I have seen that with S.Maculatus. The recorded breeding of Spilopleura, which may have been S.Sanchezi, mentions the fish shimmering together on the roots of a water sprite. I could be wrong in my assumptions but based on the recorded breeding of serrasalmus genus piranha, it is my belief they need physical contact. I am not telling you to remove your barrier, and risk harming the fish. But, togetherness may be a prerequisite to getting them to spawn in captivity.


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## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

woops i guess i didnt read it rite apologies


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> 33truballa33 Posted Today, 11:39 AM
> woops i guess i didnt read it rite apologies


 NP, I think we all need to work on our touchiness







.









Regarding Hiroshe:
Majority of Azuma's work (I have the majority of his material) was done in very large aquarios. Its a good work to follow some basics on. Some Alan has touched on. But with any such examination of species interaction, don't forget the basic natural rule. They are fin biters and when we do a aquario we have to consider that........which I'm sure everyone here is aware of and don't need to repeat it to much (my habit.....sorry LOL). I think the approach of just tossing in fish without giving them a natural setting, ie; plants, roots or rocks has its plus and minus's. A bare tank reminds me too much of a dealer tank, but having said that, there are rare occasions when the species will breed, Acestrorhynchus falcatus is an example of that. Still S. brandtii has been in the hobby since about 1996 or 97 at least that is when their availability became constant. Prior to that, few were let out that it was considered "rare". Having a natural aquario gives the fish some security and places to hide if things get bad. Natural selection as indicated by others and Alan is how fish remove undesireables from their "group". It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the fish, but that the group finds it inferior because of either coloration, spotting, or some other natural defect the fish "see" known only to them.


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## Azeral (Dec 28, 2004)

What size tank are you using for your project?


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Azeral said:


> What size tank are you using for your project?
> [snapback]1006686[/snapback]​


100 Gallon long tank

72" X 18" X 18"

They appear to be a wonderful group of fish. My 4 S.Brandtii were housed with 2 S.Serrulatus for about a month with no casualties to either species or separation required. They were also housed with 7 S.Sanchezi for about a month with no casualties or separation required for either species. The fish were not moved about for something to do, it took me some time to free up a suitable tank for the project. When you got 18 fish tanks full of piranhas and get some new ones, it takes time to find a home for them.

All 4 are still together, and 3 look like a show quality fish. The 4th is still the fish to get nipped. The amount of nips on the forth fish, I call S.Brandtii B are slowly decreasing. Most of my projects will get each individual fish photographed. If there are noticeable physiological differences, I will name them. Ex. S.Brandtii A,B,C, and D. This naming convention allows me to convey information about the group in an organized fashion. Here is how my naming convention works. I'm sure the members here can see very noticeable differences in each fish. Some projects are a little harder to distinguish the individual fish, but it is well worth it in my opinion.

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## kove32 (Oct 26, 2004)

Any follow up on this? I am interested.


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## Joga Bonito (Oct 30, 2004)

kove32 said:


> Any follow up on this? I am interested.
> [snapback]1075381[/snapback]​


me 2


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## benJii (Feb 17, 2005)

go to piranhacove.com, thats serra. coll. website, he generally has updates there


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