# Feeding Live



## duster1971 (Jan 23, 2010)

Ok so why is it people always say feeding live food is bad when there are tons of things that people feed that are worse and I'm not talking about hotdogs and other stuff like that I'm talking about pellets and other prepaird food that has less nutrutinal value than some others. Any answeres post them up.


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## duster1971 (Jan 23, 2010)

Hmmm only 16 members loged in thaught this site was more poular than that lmao.


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## Sacrifice (Sep 24, 2006)

LOL, I prefer sleeping at 3:00am.

I've always thought that pellets were considered good nutritional food for them? What do you mean by live? Are you talking about mammals or other fish? I tend to not feed anything live unless I have personally raised the food myself (ex: guppies or convicts) I think that you take a chance of getting some nasty parasites if not. As far as mice go I choose not to feed them because of the chance of them clawing at my P. They could take out an eye.

You mentioned other prepared foods...which ones are you talking about?

Sorry that I wasn't up this morning to share my opinions in the this thread I believe that I was dreaming about a sweet group of Geryi in my 125g or I could've been dreaming about some sweet piece of


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

7am here on the west coast... just got up and raced to the computer just in case somebody had an "emergency question" about live feeding.

Sorry I'm late...









Anywho, to refer to high grade pellets as "non-nutritional" is completely false.
They're very nutritional- believed by many experts to be the best thing to feed your fish in captivity.

As for feeders- it's a crapshoot at best.
Unless you raised them yourself, you never know for sure whether or not they are disease-ridden (often the case with lfs feeders.)
Also, feeders such as goldfish and "rosy reds" contain a growth-inhibiting hormone called _"thiaminase."_

Joedizzle, I hope you don't mind that I'm quoting you from a post you made in Monster Fish Keepers last year:

_"There are actually lots of food items that contain thiaminase... even raw shrimp. the goldfish should be avoided due to the fact that they have a very high thiaminase content, provide little nutritional value, and they can carry disease.

Thiaminase is actually an enzyme that breaks down thiamin, studies have shown that diets high in thiaminase can cause a lot of problems down the road, especially when it comes to growth. the best way to avoid those problems is to provide a varied diet. while shrimp does contain thiaminase, i think it is still a good food option as long as it isn't the only food you are feeding. tilapia, cod, haddock, and pollock are all easy to find at your local grocer and do not contain thiaminase."_

As for feeding your piranhas furry little rodents... if you don't care that you're causing great suffering to a creature by enjoying watching it getting picked apart while drowning in a state of utter panic, perhaps you will care that there's usually a tremendous mess of fur to clean up afterward... and then the blood that's going to rot in the water and filters...

Yeah, live feeding is best left to the fish in the wild.
I have to wonder when it comes to those people who try to disguise their sadistic disorders by claiming that "it's natural to feed live..." so do they turn rabbits and small deer loose in their backyards in order to feed their dogs?









In short- a true aquarist feeds his/her fish that which is best for his/her fish... not what 'gets the rocks off' for the observer.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

Piranha_man said:


> 7am here on the west coast... just got up and raced to the computer just in case somebody had an "emergency question" about live feeding.
> 
> Sorry I'm late...
> 
> ...


QUOTE FOR THE MOTHER LOVING TRUTH!

The best "High Quality" Pellets I have are Top Fin...... My fish have NO COLOR.... I hate not having hikari..


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## Sanjo Eel (Aug 21, 2008)

Pellets are very nutritious and so are healthy feeder fish. What's bad is poor quality food, feeders from a lfs, and food that fouls the water.


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## duster1971 (Jan 23, 2010)

Sanjo you caught what I left out. I didn't mention weather or not they are high or low qulity pelets. I am talking about low qualitywith a lot of filler. And as for other prepaird foods I am speeking of troplical fish flakes and a lot of freezedried. As for live I'm talking about minnows and crayfish ect. But how many of you have fed gold fish and other foods that are not recomended? I know I have and most of the fish I fedbthis to actualy grew faster and larger than the curent ones I have and they get high quality pellets and other prepaird foods such as Pollock tilapia ect. So I guss my question wuld be if fed in moderation not as a sole food with precautions in place (treating feeders befor being fed) then what is wrong with feeding live excluding mice ect.

As for only 16 people being loged on it was a joke I see some of you caught this. And please don't post things from mfk if you see my user name you shuld know I am there to I have read many if not all of the stickys and post there and while they do pertain to this they are just fine left there and not used as a juke for people here to get around answereing a question.


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

Variety, variety, variety if you feed lots of different foods,(like you should)feed what you want.go stir on mfk! Lmao


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## duster1971 (Jan 23, 2010)

Bruner you of all people know better than to preach variety to me. It is a givin fact that variety is the best way to feed and that I am not talking about feeding any one thing soaly.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

Why is this topic being brought up every couple days lately? There are a few threads were this topic has been beaten to death already in the past couple weeks, if you'd like to see more opinions on it, check out some of them.

http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?/topic/191220-thiaminase-kills/

http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?/topic/194232-feeder-debate-from-piranha-discussion/

http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?/topic/193946-why-you-should-stay-away-from-goldfish/


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

Duster don't visit this deep in the fury much. At least there isn't no argument.lol.


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## duster1971 (Jan 23, 2010)

If I wanted those opinions I culd read any site. I am asking for facts tho so that is why I ask. @bruner nope don't visit here much they shuld feel graced lol. I just see that this is a major issue that people fuss about all the time so I figure why can't I lol. No I apologize if you think that I am tryen to start anything I'm not just want the facts.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

duster1971 said:


> If I wanted those opinions I culd read any site. I am asking for facts tho so that is why I ask. @bruner nope don't visit here much they shuld feel graced lol. I just see that this is a major issue that people fuss about all the time so I figure why can't I lol. No I apologize if you think that I am tryen to start anything I'm not just want the facts.


What facts do you want? The fact that live feeders can introduce disease and parasites? The fact that they aren't necessary in order to feed a varied diet?

This is what I don't get about this whole topic that gets brought up all the time, those that trumpet the benefits of live feedings constantly ask for the facts associated with feeding live but when they are provided with said facts, they ignore them and ask for more facts while continuing to pass off their opinion as the end-all be-all. Feed your fish whatever you like, but if you choose to ignore any of the negatives that may be associated with live feedings, then I don't see the point of starting these threads all the time just to shoot down anyone that decides to offer up an opposing viewpoint.


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

duster1971 said:


> If I wanted those opinions I culd read any site. I am asking for facts tho so that is why I ask. @bruner nope don't visit here much they shuld feel graced lol. I just see that this is a major issue that people fuss about all the time so I figure why can't I lol. No I apologize if you think that I am tryen to start anything I'm not just want the facts.


WTF are u talking about?


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## duster1971 (Jan 23, 2010)

Not going to shoot any body down. I am open for any info the facts that I speek of besides the obviouse is hard eveidence that has been studied and proven. Sorry if I am getting under your skin not my intentions. As you said I am one who feeds live but it is not because I enjoy the carnage but simply due to the fact it may help bond a shole and they may or may not get any thing out of it. But from past experiance of what others have noticed. And what has been proven. Thimanes being a killer for instance how many people can argue that fact. Ok fact about thimanese yes it inhibits the absoebtion of one b vitamin but not all and as has been said befor. If fed as part of a variety this will most likly be minimal effect. As for the paracites and desease yes it is verry possible that these can be in live food from lfs and usualy are but these can be treated and eliminated if you take them into another tank and do so with medications,salt, temps, and nutritinal value can be bosted bybfeeding quality foods to these fish. Yes it seems like a lot of work but so is raising your own feeders.

Soul assasin I am not here to start any fights or arguments. So please read this post and answere or not I am sure there are a lot of others that you culd be helping.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

duster1971 said:


> As for the paracites and desease yes it is verry possible that these can be in live food from lfs and usualy are but these can be treated and eliminated if you take them into another tank and do so with medications,salt, temps, and nutritinal value can be bosted bybfeeding quality foods to these fish. Yes it seems like a lot of work but so is raising your own feeders.


That's the thing that always seems to be missed here, you can't completely eliminate the risk. Sure, you can spend a bunch of extra money and a bunch of extra time on breeding your own feeders to lessen the risk, but why take it when you can feed a perfectly healthy diet that doesn't involve the risk or the extra effort? That's another reason I have a problem with this topic... when you strip all of the BS away and look at the actual facts surrounding this issue, there is a risk involved -- some people choose to take that risk and some don't, I just don't see the point in debating this issue when the facts are so clear.


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## duster1971 (Jan 23, 2010)

Finaly what I have been looking for straight forward answeres. And yes I agree that it is never eliminated I chose my words porly when I stated that. thank you for the ansers.


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## duster1971 (Jan 23, 2010)

And since you are a mod if you wish delete this thread as you have finaly mentiond what I have realy been looking for. A simple anser of do what you want its up to you there are risks yes they are avoidable but if you wish to take them then do so not like a lot of people have been saying on this and many other sites sayen that they are the absolute wrong thing to feed and not the facts that you have stated.


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

piranha can do well if the feeders are high quality, but there is still risk involved with parasites and growth inhibiting hormones. if you want to be 100% safe, go with white fish fillet like tiliapia or catfish. the choice is yours though.

p.s.- there is a pinned thread in this section on live feeders, at the top of the feeding section. post away in the pinned section, then other members don't have to shuffle through 5 or 10 threads on the same topic in one section of the board.


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## shaneb (May 4, 2010)

Catfish and some shrimp contain it also.

Thiaminase is not destroyed by freezing, and over time will break down whatever Vitamin B1 is present in the frozen fish. The longer the fish is stored, the less Vitamin B1 it will contain. Furthermore, any fish fed such frozen fish will be consuming the thiaminase, and that will destroy some of the Vitamin B1 it already has. Making things even worse, freezing and thawing both break down some of the Vitamin B1 content of food as well.

So now my question is How many people feed catfish/shrimp and of them people how many freeze a portion of it for later feedings? According to the article i read and posted a portion of it above it doesn't seem like a very healthy choice either.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

shaneb said:


> Catfish and some shrimp contain it also.
> 
> Thiaminase is not destroyed by freezing, and over time will break down whatever Vitamin B1 is present in the frozen fish. The longer the fish is stored, the less Vitamin B1 it will contain. Furthermore, any fish fed such frozen fish will be consuming the thiaminase, and that will destroy some of the Vitamin B1 it already has. Making things even worse, freezing and thawing both break down some of the Vitamin B1 content of food as well.
> 
> So now my question is How many people feed catfish/shrimp and of them people how many freeze a portion of it for later feedings? According to the article i read and posted a portion of it above it doesn't seem like a very healthy choice either.


Read P Man's post above...


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## Pirambeba (Feb 1, 2010)

Where did you get the Idea that pellets are bad? The Ones you mentioned that contain high amount of filler are less nutritional, but not more so than feeder fish.


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)




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## shaneb (May 4, 2010)

JOE, I think you may be confusing my post as trying to start something when i am trully asking a question. I may have not worded it right so let me try again. This is a real question and not me just trying to start some stuff..

We all know a varied diet is best for our fish. Most of us follow this rule no matter if we believe in live feeding or not. I have been trying to educate myself more on this Thiaminase deal.

Catfish, some shrimp , and certain feeders all have it in them. I would assume pellets do not. I am going to repost the portion of the article that leads me to my question



> Thiaminase is not destroyed by freezing, and over time will break down whatever Vitamin B1 is present in the frozen fish. The longer the fish is stored, the less Vitamin B1 it will contain. Furthermore, any fish fed such frozen fish will be consuming the thiaminase, and that will destroy some of the Vitamin B1 it already has. Making things even worse, freezing and thawing both break down some of the Vitamin B1 content of food as well.


As most of you know I feed live Convicts, I also feed Talapi fillets, Shrimp, catfish, Pellets , and Nightcrawlers. What I am wondering is if this is too much Thiaminase even with the varied diet i serve them. Would it be healthier if I cut out the catfish and shrimp all together. And only bought small fillets that I fed directly to my fish and didnt keep any in the freezer?

They way it reads it seems this would be the most beneficial to the fish right? Or am I missing something...


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## Pirambeba (Feb 1, 2010)

wisco_pygo said:


>


LMFAO


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## duster1971 (Jan 23, 2010)

Pirambeba I think you missed the point with the pellets I was compairing the low quality pellets to feeders for nutritinal value. I never said pellets are bad I feed pellets along with many other things. As I have said befor variety is they key to fish health.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

shaneb said:


> JOE, I think you may be confusing my post as trying to start something when i am trully asking a question. I may have not worded it right so let me try again. This is a real question and not me just trying to start some stuff..
> 
> We all know a varied diet is best for our fish. Most of us follow this rule no matter if we believe in live feeding or not. I have been trying to educate myself more on this Thiaminase deal.
> 
> ...


No, I didn't think you were trying to start something, I just said to read P Man's post above because he quoted something I said in the past stating that even though some shrimp have some thiaminase (some catfish do too), they are still good food options as long as the diet is varied. You could definitely feed your fish fresh fillets, but freezing is fine as long as it hasn't been frozen for too long. I try to buy no more at a time than my fish will eat in a month.

Thiaminase is really only a negative thing if you are exclusively feeding foods with a high thiaminase content. There are plenty of foods that people eat that are perfectly healthy, but can lead to problems if your diet consists entirely of one thing -- from a lack of certain vitamins due to not having variety or from having too much of certain minerals due to exclusively eating the same thing over and over again.


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## Pirambeba (Feb 1, 2010)

duster1971 said:


> Pirambeba I think you missed the point with the pellets I was compairing the low quality pellets to feeders for nutritinal value. I never said pellets are bad I feed pellets along with many other things. As I have said befor variety is they key to fish health.


OIC, my bad then..


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