# what the hell is that fish ???



## KGB agent (Jan 23, 2007)

can you tell me guys where can i get this fish??


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

At first I thought that might be a Rhom, but I do not think that it is. I believe that is a large Cariba in breeding colors. It is hard to tell, but it looks like it has a hummeral spot behind the gill flaps. That would be a dead give away that it is a Cariba.

Check the sponsors to the right, and I know that they have them in a variety of sizes.


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## B-rock (Mar 31, 2006)

Looks like a rhom to me. Check with our sponsors on the right>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brian


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Not so sure, the nape region is very convex. If it was a Rhom the nape region would be extremely concave.


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## Badrad1532 (Apr 15, 2006)

Alot of P's have humeral spots, But your right it does resemble a Pygo and a rhom, IMO more of a Pygo. Maybe caribe.


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## flashover00 (Oct 19, 2006)

it has red eyes....doesnt that mean pygo natt? I thought Caribe had clear eyes?


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## B-rock (Mar 31, 2006)

[quote name='flashover00' date='Jan 25 2007, 02:25 PM' post='1810287']
it has red eyes....doesnt that mean pygo natt? I thought Caribe had clear eyes?

Piraya have clear eyes. I guess it could be a pygo, just looks like a diamond rhom. yes, the head is not to concave.


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

Cariba have clear eyes. The humeral spot is not as distint as that in a cariba.

100% Red belly


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## piranha_guy_dan (Oct 4, 2004)

this has been brought up before and it was called a rhom from bolivia


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## Neon22 (Oct 11, 2006)

Blue diamond rhom for sure :nod:


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Leasure1 said:


> Cariba have clear eyes. The humeral spot is not as distint as that in a cariba.
> 
> *100% Red belly*


Yeah, I would agree with you that it is a red the more I look at it. Well done leasure1!


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## Neon22 (Oct 11, 2006)

It is a very hard fish to find

It is a fuc king blue diamond Rhom


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## piranha_guy_dan (Oct 4, 2004)

I SAID BOLIVIAN RHOM DAMMMMMMMMIT LOL

here look familiar?

http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.ph...&hl=bolivia


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Pygocentrus nattereri.


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Thanks for confirming that Frank!


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## piranha_guy_dan (Oct 4, 2004)

hastatus said:


> Pygocentrus nattereri.


where were you when nick posted this before frank?????

i never said bolivian


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

Frank eats sleeps and shits piranhas. he knows as well as I do that it is nothing more than a red belly. Just because the guy got ripped buying a red and called it a rhom, doesn't make it a rhom.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> piranha_guy_dan Posted Today, 12:53 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Jan 25 2007, 03:46 PM)
> 
> Pygocentrus nattereri.
> ...


Before Nick passed away, he was in email contact with me for a few years. I knew about this fish before anyone else did. I left it up to him to decide whether or not to give out the information. He was trying to import these fish in and he did send me additional photos from the exporter. Unfortunately, his passing interrupted the research information I was gathering.


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## piranha_guy_dan (Oct 4, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > piranha_guy_dan Posted Today, 12:53 PM
> > QUOTE(hastatus @ Jan 25 2007, 03:46 PM)
> >
> > Pygocentrus nattereri.
> ...


oh my bad

RIP nickg


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## po0p (Jan 2, 2007)

Hmm I learn something new everyday... thanks









Had been left up to me for answer, I wouldve said blue diamond rhom. Looks like the dorsal fin is set back farther than a Natt. Oh well. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## moron (May 26, 2006)

thats one cool lookng red. It has blue on it...I've breed red bellies before and never saw blue. interesting..


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## inspectahdeck34 (Dec 31, 2006)

thats really interesting


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

It's wild. They take on many forms in terms of body shape and color. MA had what he was calling a purple variant red belly that had the same color as the fish in question.


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## KGB agent (Jan 23, 2007)

piranha_guy_dan said:


> this has been brought up before and it was called a rhom from bolivia


THATS RIGHT MAN !! CHECK THIS WEB FOR MORE INFO









http://www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk/php/detail51_48446.php


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## Dairy Whip (Mar 26, 2006)

Leasure1 said:


> It's wild. They take on many forms in terms of body shape and color. MA had what he was calling a purple variant red belly that had the same color as the fish in question.


thats what i waz thinking looks like one of those purple reds


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

> QUOTE(piranha_guy_dan @ Jan 25 2007, 03:14 PM)
> 
> this has been brought up before and it was called a rhom from bolivia
> 
> ...


You can buy into the HYPE (by that I mean bullshit) if you want, but as for me, there is no way I am giving anyone extra cash for a fish that is made up. Until there is proof, which there isn't, I would not suggest beliving such rumors.

Hell, I have seen many people with purple hues on thier terns, including myself. But I am in no hurry to go and give it a new name like " super purple blue tint hypoallergenic possible differant species ternetzi"

Just plain BS!!!

Fish can take on many differant body shapes and colors. If you want to feel cool, or uniqe for thinking you have something nobody else does, then by all means.........


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Description: At Piranha Hut UK we are now able to purchase Bolivian Piranha which have never been seen in the hobby before.
> 
> The Bolivian government are working with a charity that gets the local villagers to fish for all types of tropical fish from their stretches of the Amazon and now sell through the charity. A percentage of the money they make on the fish sales is then injected back into the community to help with water safety, education, health care etc.
> 
> ...


The above information is based on FACT.



> You can buy into the HYPE (by that I mean bullshit) if you want, *but as for me, there is no way I am giving anyone extra cash for a fish that is made up. * Until there is proof, which there isn't, I would not suggest beliving such rumors.
> 
> Hell, I have seen many people with purple hues on thier terns, including myself. But I am in no hurry to go and give it a new name like " super purple blue tint hypoallergenic possible differant species ternetzi"
> 
> Just plain BS!!!


No one is asking you too.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

This looks like a rhombeus to me...and it appears Nick felt the same in that write up. Are you sure this is the fish you were talking about with him Frank? Im not saying I didnt go back and forth with this guy....but in the end...it looks more Serrasalmus to me.


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

Well, is the fish in the picture a Nattereri or a serra. If it were not for the way the fish is shaoed on the top, I would say natt, but upon the closer look, I can see where it has a the look of a serra with the way the upper portion of the body is shaped, and right behind the dorsal fin. I didn't see that at first. Still looks like a red the way the head is shaped. Kinda looks like both.

Glad to know it is a fact. I was just thinking it was a "purple variant red belly"

Any pics of these other than the purple/black Frank?



> 3 new varities of Serrasalmus Rhombeus have been found ranging from a flame orange eyed purple/black rhombeus (see pic) a Royal Blue rhombeus and Fire Blue rhombeus.


Would be cool to see the fire blue!!!

So....now there are 3 more rhom variants!!!! COOL!!!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Grosse Gurke Posted Today, 03:42 PM
> This looks like a rhombeus to me...and it appears Nick felt the same in that write up. Are you sure this is the fish you were talking about with him Frank? Im not saying I didnt go back and forth with this guy....but in the end...it looks more Serrasalmus to me.


It's Pygocentrus and I cleared it via Dr. Paulo Petry who saw that photo came to the same conclusion based on the information I gave him and additional photos aside from the one shown here. Nick was in the process of securing live specimens (with one for me to look at) in which I would have checked the palatine region (upper roof of the mouth). I did warn him about releasing the information (argument over species) until I could get a live or dead specimen here to look at. Based on other photos from Jegu and one I have here in formalin (also shown at nattereri-locality forms at opefe), the fish ID is correct.


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## Froogle (Mar 15, 2006)

rhom


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Froogle Posted Today, 10:34 PM
> rhom


 Thanks for making my point.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > Froogle Posted Today, 10:34 PM
> > rhom
> 
> 
> Thanks for making my point.:laugh:












Right on Frank....it is an amazing fish. So do we know if they are going to be releasing any of these fish for exportation...or are they still on lock down?

What an asset Nick was to the hobby....damn....


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Grosse Gurke Posted Today, 12:52 AM ...Right on Frank....it is an amazing fish. So do we know if they are going to be releasing any of these fish for exportation...or are they still on lock down?
> 
> What an asset Nick was to the hobby....damn....


To be honest, I don't know. When Nick left us, so did the information.

Here is a photo that I think he would not have minded sharing with you all..........I hope not anyway.
Please respect the photo and the person who tried to bring this beauty in for all of us.


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## MONGO  (Feb 7, 2006)

thats amazing


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Frank, is that simply a red is breeding color with a variant color scheme? Or, a very dark red with purple hues on its side? Don't get me wrong because I think that it looks great, but would this fish be the equivalent. of the different species of Rhom (e.g. Black, Gold, Blue, etc. )? Same fish, different look.


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## ReBoot (Oct 31, 2006)

I know that I am new to this forum and to piranhas, but what about the possibility of a cross-breed? I know piranhas have a viotale nature, and more than likely would never breed with any other type except its own family, but what if? There has to be a slim chance of occurance, and perhaps this is one of those? Perhaps that is why they are not known, or seen on a regular basis? e.g., the flowerhorn, red parrot, etc.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

what a beaut!!!!!


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## WaxmasterJ (Jan 8, 2007)

we have golds that look exactly like that in my lfs. they have red eyes and all, they arent as dark, but same exact shape and head profile.


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## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

I remember the first time that picture (1st pic) showed up, amazing looking fish. After seeing it in the water I can see the pygo natt.

Thanks for the extra picture Frank and Nickg (RIP).


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## assclown (Dec 12, 2005)

Neon22 said:


> Blue diamond rhom for sure :nod:


agreed, look at the back and fin (hump)


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Frank, is that simply a red is breeding color with a variant color scheme? Or, a very dark red with purple hues on its side? Don't get me wrong because I think that it looks great, but would this fish be the equivalent. of the different species of Rhom (e.g. Black, Gold, Blue, etc. )? Same fish, different look.


This question was asked of the exporter. He says the fish retains its dark color year round. There is an area in Brazil (I think, need to go back a re-read the info), where black P. nattereri are found. That's part of Schomburgk S. niger description that got screwed up when he created that name for S. rhombeus. He described 2 different species as one.



> assclown Posted Today, 06:15 AM
> QUOTE(Neon22 @ Jan 25 2007, 12:14 PM)
> 
> Blue diamond rhom for sure :nod:
> ...


Ahhh, the experts are showing up. Good to know your opinions are correct on a topic you know little to nothing about.











> b_ack51 Posted Today, 05:37 AM
> I remember the first time that picture (1st pic) showed up, amazing looking fish. After seeing it in the water I can see the pygo natt.
> 
> Thanks for the extra picture Frank and Nickg (RIP).


The fish out of water is the same fish in water. From Jegu, the P. nattereri in Bolivia are indeed black. My first impression was P. cariba breeding, but the red eye left me in doubt. Later Nick got the river and I did more research on that particular river and medium sized adults are indeed black. Young ones are heavily pigmented giving it a more dusky appearance.

For those thinking this fish is a "rhom" good luck proving that.


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## MONGO  (Feb 7, 2006)

assclown said:


> Blue diamond rhom for sure :nod:


agreed, look at the back and fin (hump)
[/quote]


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## itstheiceman (Oct 5, 2006)

that does have some pygo resemblance to it forsure


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## piranha_guy_dan (Oct 4, 2004)

now i can see that its in a tank its simple a red belly. being out of the water made it harder to see the jaw structure.

thanks for posting the pic frank


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## itstheiceman (Oct 5, 2006)

piranha_guy_dan said:


> now i can see that its in a tank its simple a red belly. being out of the water made it harder to see the jaw structure.
> 
> thanks for posting the pic frank


no doubt eh, frank to the rescue


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

hastatus said:


> This question was asked of the exporter. He says the fish retains its dark color year round. There is an area in Brazil (I think, need to go back a re-read the info), where black P. nattereri are found. *That's part of Schomburgk S. niger description that got screwed up when he created that name for S. rhombeus. He described 2 different species as one.*


Thus, it is a very dark red (e.g. Pygocentrus Nattereri) or as you stated a black red. Thanks for the clearification!

Humm, that makes since now. I have done some reading on how Caribas (in breading color, or now black pygocentrus nattereri) have been mistaken as S. Niger or Serrasalmus Rhombeus because of the mix-up between two species.

Frank, as always thanks for the detailed information.


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## WaxmasterJ (Jan 8, 2007)

KGB agent said:


> can you tell me guys where can i get this fish??


I think it's a serra personally, I have read everyone's opinion but the picture in the first post says alot more than any of you have about this exact specimen. No disrespect to Mr. Magallanes or GG, but I am an artist; my whole life is observing the world around me, and I do not see this fish to be a Pygocentrus. I hope you respect my opinions as I have respected yurs so many times in the past.










here is my final peice of my arguement: this fish was positively ID'ed as an S. Spilopleura (most likely maculatus.) I had just found this after my initial post.


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## WaxmasterJ (Jan 8, 2007)

ID complete?


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## Dezboy (Apr 2, 2006)

you can get one like that from alot of lfs, but i think a fish of that size would cost alot of money


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## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

> I think it's a serra personally, I have read everyone's opinion but the picture in the first post says alot more than any of you have about this exact specimen. No disrespect to Mr. Magallanes or GG, but I am an artist; my whole life is observing the world around me, and I do not see this fish to be a Pygocentrus. I hope you respect my opinions as I have respected yurs so many times in the past.


Look at the second picture Frank posted of the fish. Its the same identical fish. The second picture clearly identifies the fish as a pygo and as a red belly to be exact. It's hard to tell from the first picture, but that fish is a pygo. Definately a nice red belly and wouldn't mind getting one of them for a shoal.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> I think it's a serra personally, I have read everyone's opinion but the picture in the first post says alot more than any of you have about this exact specimen. No disrespect to Mr. Magallanes or GG, but I am an artist; my whole life is observing the world around me, and I do not see this fish to be a Pygocentrus. I hope you respect my opinions as I have respected yurs so many times in the past.


The spilopleura complex forms are a species that has features resembling Pygocentrus ie; snubnose, sometimes coloration and overall body shape. That is why they are called complex.

I have photos of Bolivian S. spilopleura, they are not the same as the photo by NickG. I cannot release that photo yet as it is unpublished by Jegu.

Your photos (in my qualified opinion) do not match up to Nickg P. nattereri nor the Fink/Jegu descriptions of nattereri.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I think I've said all that I can say on this topic. Take it for what its worth. You all have a good one.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

It is pretty clear by the picture of the fish in the water that it is a nattereri. Sorry WaxmasterJ....but there is no doubt about the genus of the fish...and the species is fairly obvious as well.

Thanks Frank.


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

> QUOTE
> Description: At Piranha Hut UK we are now able to purchase Bolivian Piranha which have never been seen in the hobby before.
> 
> The Bolivian government are working with a charity that gets the local villagers to fish for all types of tropical fish from their stretches of the Amazon and now sell through the charity. A percentage of the money they make on the fish sales is then injected back into the community to help with water safety, education, health care etc.
> ...


I thought that we were all in agreement that this fish was a serra.


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

OK, so it is a natt, but the bolivian species that were just found DO exsist. cool!!!


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## Dairy Whip (Mar 26, 2006)

GG Are you talking about the first pic when you said rohm????? I cant see a rohm from that pic







But i know you know your sh*t


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Dairy Whip said:


> GG Are you talking about the first pic when you said rohm????? I cant see a rohm from that pic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup....I thought the first picture looked more Serrasalmus..asside from the tail. However when you see it in the tank it is clearly a Pygocentrus. My bad :nod:


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

Neon22 said:


> Blue diamond rhom for sure :nod:


Guaranteed


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

You sir are wrong.....guaranteed!!! nattereri 100%

If the thread is dead.....bury it!!!!! Don't drag it back up.


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