# Cycle is phucked (Experts please read)



## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

Ok guys. Read my numbers:

http://www.virtualdesigns.com/water.htm

At this point I am working with Peacock to get this cycled. Started out straight ammonia and Bio Spira. Right now it has a single beta fish in it, and we keep the ammonia at 4ppm.

Last week I added 3 handfuls of LFS gravel into my filter via pantyhose.

Ammonia is dropping about 1 ppm a day. Theres bacteria, but it's not growing.

What is the deal here, anyone got ldeas? I am desperate at this point and ready to try about anything.

Could the fact that I lose about 1" of water a week to evaporation be doing anything? I have learned a ton about cycling and water this past month, researched, listened, but I am lost right now.


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## acidWarp (Jun 30, 2003)

It's been a few months, so I could understand the aggravation youre having, especially adding the Bio Spira, which should have helped kickstart the cycle.

I dont think the evaporation would be cause for any concern, since I believe youd loose bacteria. This is going to sound stupid, but when you replace the water, are you using a conditioner or letting the water sit in open air for 24 hours to allow the chlorine to dissipate (I had to ask







).

I've never tried the adding ammonia approach, but if i could offer anything, I'd say you do have bacteria growth and a shot in the dark would be to lay off the ammonia and try the natural approach with some goldfish.


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

Water is treated before it enters the tank.


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

Ok guys my ammonia usually drops 1 ppm a day, this time it HASN'T MOVED!

Im lost, ready to give up.

http://www.virtualdesigns.com/water.htm


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## joefromcanada (Apr 16, 2004)

damn, the only thing i could see keepin the ammonia that high is overfeedin or sumtin is sittin around rotting.


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## prdemon (Aug 1, 2003)

doctorvtec said:


> Ammonia is dropping about 1 ppm a day. Theres bacteria, but it's not growing.


 it doesnt have a reason to, you have but one betta in the tank, which by the way is what size? and what kind of filter? im no expert but, i personaly dont use any chemicals to cycle my tanks, and when you do use chemicals expect them to throw test all off, give a little more info so we can make a better assessment of your situation


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

My log:

http://www.virtualdesigns.com/water.htm

I am using fishless cycling, the fish that is in there is just there because I have no other place for him.

I have a Fluval 304, and a Penguin 170. My bacteria source at the beginning was Bio Spira. I followed this fishless cycling plan:

http://www.aquamaniacs.net/cyclingsafelyfishless.html

This is a proven method, but for some reason it's not working for me.

We have also added 3 handfuls of gravel from an established LFS tank and that did nothing.

We were dropping 1 ppm a day, actually more then that at first, now it is at a stand still.

Peacock is helping me. We are letting it sit one more day, if tommorow no change, we will alter our gameplan.


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## acidWarp (Jun 30, 2003)

Is there any reason for the fishless cycle? Even if it's proven, sometimes it's worth trying the old school way. I dont see the harm in it since you already admit this way hasnt worked out well as of yet :rock:


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## timmy (Mar 29, 2004)

acidWarp said:


> Is there any reason for the fishless cycle? Even if it's proven, sometimes it's worth trying the old school way. I dont see the harm in it since you already admit this way hasnt worked out well as of yet :rock:


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## joefromcanada (Apr 16, 2004)

fishless cycle worked in my tank without biospira, took 3 weeks.


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Seems like that the ammonia levels were so high that bacterial growth was inhibited, through a biofeedback mechanism, rather than promoted. 4-5 drops of ammonia per 10 gallons and when nitrite spike occurs cut it down to 2-3 drops per 10 gallon is what worked for me. My 50 gallon tank was cycled in 10 days w/ bio-spira.
{edit} -- Fishless Cycle procedure that i followed
{edit} -- I just checked your previous posts. This is definitaely what happened in your case. On a 30 gallon you should have used 15 drops initially not 100 and when your nitrite spiked you should have used 6-9 drops and i see you added 250 according to your web link.
{edit} -- Your fishless cycle instructions 
It looks like you did not follow directions properly. Open the link in the second paragragh where it says cycling without fish.


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

Ok what do I do to fix this?

I thought I had to keep it at 3-5 ppm.

From the article:

_Ammonia: 
I generally like to recommend keeping the ammonia level in the tank somewhere between 3 ppm to 5 ppm until nitrite spikes. Find a container (a one gallon jug is ideal and will make your life easier, but a 3-gallon or 5-gallon bucket will work too) and fill with water and add water conditioner. Add ammonia slowly into the container (with the dropper, spoon or old conditioner bottle) until the ammonia test kit shows a reading of 3 ppm to 5 ppm. Record the amount of ammonia you added per gallon so that you will know how much ammonia to add to the rest of the tank to reach 3 ppm to 5 ppm. _


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

jerry_plakyda said:


> Seems like that the ammonia levels were so high that bacterial growth was inhibited, through a biofeedback mechanism, rather than promoted. 4-5 drops of ammonia per 10 gallons and when nitrite spike occurs cut it down to 2-3 drops per 10 gallon is what worked for me. My 50 gallon tank was cycled in 10 days w/ bio-spira.
> {edit} -- Fishless Cycle procedure that i followed
> {edit} -- I just checked your previous posts. This is definitaely what happened in your case. On a 30 gallon you should have used 15 drops initially not 100 and when your nitrite spiked you should have used 6-9 drops and i see you added 250 according to your web link.
> {edit} -- Your fishless cycle instructions
> It looks like you did not follow directions properly. Open the link in the second paragragh where it says cycling without fish.


 Umm.. 4ppm is not "high".. especialy not high enough to have any effect on the nitrifiers.

biofeedback? umm no.. Please, fill me in on how the ammonia had a biofeedback effect on the bacteria.. biofeedback is a term used to describe the process of using devices to get some info regarding an *autonomic* function to gain some control over that function. Like using a test kit to test the Ammonia... sorta.

maybe im wrong and did not pay attention in biology but im positive thats what Biofeedback is.

How does that relate to the Bacteria? the Ammonia had an effect on the autonomic functions of the bacteira?

New aquariums will have more then 4PPM of NH3... why does it work in those cases but not this one? why does this "Biofeedback" only work on Vtechs 30 gallon?


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Peacock said:


> jerry_plakyda said:
> 
> 
> > Seems like that the ammonia levels were so high that bacterial growth was inhibited, through a biofeedback mechanism, rather than promoted. 4-5 drops of ammonia per 10 gallons and when nitrite spike occurs cut it down to 2-3 drops per 10 gallon is what worked for me. My 50 gallon tank was cycled in 10 days w/ bio-spira.
> ...


This is a direct copy off the link that vtec used for instructions located under the test vials. The first one makes more sense but the second one can't be discounted.
It is said that the filter media and colonizing surfaces in the tank, or oxygen levels are simply insufficient to sustain a large enough bacterial colony that can convert all of the ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate.
Another possibility is that the ammonia levels are so high that bacterial growth is inhibited, through a biofeedback mechanism, rather than promoted.

vtec -- I would stick with your original filters since they probably have loads of bacteria. I would add only 6 drops max when ammonia is needed from this point. Let me know how you make out.

vtec -- did you open that link in the 2nd paragraph. It takes you to here http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycling.html That actually tells you how many drops per gallon you were suppose to use and when ?


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

jerry_plakyda said:


> Peacock said:
> 
> 
> > jerry_plakyda said:
> ...


 please answere my quesiton..

how does Biofeedback have anything to do with this situation?


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

I got angry and needed to move my stand.

I drained all bout about 10% of the water, and moved it. The emp 280 is in, didn't like the powersweep, so I put my aq 402 back in. I have the emp stuffed with biomax, and the fluval is full of biomax as well. The penguin is in a 10 gallon I just setup.

I put in 15 drops of ammonia. I am going to add 1oz of biospira tomoro. I will add 15 a day until I get a nitrite spike.


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