# Serrasalmus Natterei



## mort (Mar 14, 2003)

Hi guys!

Just added 2 baby Serras (less than 1 inch) in my 20 g tank, and these bastards are agressive. Just let them swin together with 10 tetras, who was larger than the Serrras. And after 1 minute two of them where eaten!

Looking forward to them growing up, anybody else with Serra, pics?

Ill post a video later in my video thread...


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Your reference to Serrasalmus Natterei is a bit confusing. I know of no such species. There is the common pygocentrus natt. and manny types of different serras, but no Serrasalmus Natterei. Post some pics up asap so we an ID these fish for you. MIght be hard however if they are babies.

~Dj


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## tyourkie66 (Mar 13, 2003)

one time i read a book taht refered to natts as S. NATTERRI. this book also said there was such a species as S. NIGER. which is not true.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Serrasalmus nattereri is Pygocentrus nattereri, the reference to Serrasalmus nattereri is outdated and now incorrect. Take a look at the Meyers book or around the Internet, you will find many references to S. nattereri. The proper classification now though is Pygocentrus nattereri.


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

So basically, you have REDS. Let us know how it goes with them, as even reds are wonderful fish.

~Dj


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

True!...wrong info. We are talking about Pigocentrus Nattereri!

There are only 2 more pygos: P. Cariba and P. Piraya!


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

Mr. Hannibal said:


> True!...wrong info. We are talking about Pigocentrus Nattereri!
> 
> There are only 2 more pygos: P. Cariba and P. Piraya!


 dont forget about ternetzis(yellow natts).
wes


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## piranha 13 (Feb 16, 2003)

The name S. Nattereri is outdated. The name now is Pygocentrus Nattereri. There is no change in the fish itself. Just it's genus.


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

PIRANHA KING said:


> Mr. Hannibal said:
> 
> 
> > True!...wrong info. We are talking about Pigocentrus Nattereri!
> ...


 Ternetzi are simply Yellow bellied Pygocentrus Nattereri...they have not been identified into any category of their own as it stands.


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## RHOMKILLA (Feb 22, 2003)

If you're referring to red belly piranhas then what you have are pygocentrus natteri.
Serrasalmus is a totally different sub-category of piranha species.


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## mort (Mar 14, 2003)

Hi again!

I have 6 RBPs as well (see videolink signature) and i bought these ones as babies too and they do not look the same. I do not have any pics yet, but i will make some this weekend.

They look a bit "higher" on the back and bigger jaws, like a stretched pygo natt. And they are more agressive in my opinion.

Looking forward finding out what kind of p's they are....


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

usually baby p's either turn out to be natts or spiloplura. No bettter way to ID then a pic.

~Dj


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

PIRANHA KING said:


> Mr. Hannibal said:
> 
> 
> > True!...wrong info. We are talking about Pigocentrus Nattereri!
> ...


Come on..."Yellow Natt"= All Natts. You can find them in many colours...red, orange, yellow, green...still, the same species...the same Natt.!


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Never seen a green belly before...

PK, ternetzi is just another name for nattereri.


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## mort (Mar 14, 2003)

Here is a pic, sorry for the quality I know it sux! Its my cam on my mobilephone, ill post better ones later....


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## mort (Mar 14, 2003)

A video of the babies first meal... 

A bit hard to see the P's, but check it out and see what kind....


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

P. nattereri, zebra danios and what appear to be Astyanax sp.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

i have owned both and ternetzis are nothing like regular natts. 
wes


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

PIRANHA KING said:


> i have owned both and ternetzis are nothing like regular natts.
> wes


 mine didnt act anything like regular Natts either (purple, green, copper or brown) Natts are merely a hue difference, still red belly, Ternetzi are a totally different color, yellow belly


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

Coloration alone does not dictate a new species Nate...the behavior is irrelevant as well as any species within itself has differences in coloration and behavior.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

you people think what you want and we'll think what we want. 
wes


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

Sounds good to me







I'll just be satisfied then with being right.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> rosecityrhom Posted on Apr 30 2003, 02:36 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sounds good to me I'll just be satisfied then with being right.
> PIRANHA KING Posted on Apr 30 2003, 02:32 AM
> ...


I wouldn't concern myself to much about what _they think_ rosecityrhom. Its more important _knowing_ the facts. And _thinking_ is really a far stretch from _knowing._


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

rosecityrhom said:


> Coloration alone does not dictate a new species Nate...the behavior is irrelevant as well as any species within itself has differences in coloration and behavior.


I said its just a yellow natt,









true behavior does vary from fish to fish, species to species. But I was merely stating my own observations for what ever worth they may be to the readers. But all species in general will act different than the next species in all probability, whether anybody can prove a common behavior or not is another story :sad:


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

im not disputing that they are scientifically the same species. i believe yellow natts must have evolved from red natts, but now they are way different. they are capable of reaching bigger sizes and they are way thicker. 
wes
show me a 14"+ natt in person and ill say im wrong.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

PIRANHA KING said:


>












Wes is a funny guy


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 30 2003, 02:57 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> QUOTE (PIRANHA KING @ Apr 29 2003, 09:56 PM)
> 
> ...


 I suppose it depends on what you call _funny_. Being flipped off is not funny. But then expected when an opinion has no strength in knowledge.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

one word BUBBA!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> PIRANHA KING Posted on Apr 30 2003, 02:56 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> im not disputing that they are scientifically the same species. i believe yellow natts must have evolved from red natts, but now they are way different. they are capable of reaching bigger sizes and they are way thicker.
> wes
> show me a 14"+ natt in person and ill say im wrong.


 Go visit Piranha Science forum. Nate had something similar to say about that. Care to join him?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> PIRANHA KING Posted on Apr 30 2003, 03:02 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> one word BUBBA!


 To put it bluntly, Bubba was based on ( I won't call it a lie), lets just say misinformation.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

here we go AGAIN









personally I laugh at people when they flip me off and return the gesture of good will









people need to kick back and relax, we arent performing brain surgery or anything of importance, its common fact that people will not always agree. some people make too big of a deal on who is right and who is wrong, who cares









therefore when people offer and have differing opinions we ALL should respect eachothers stance and not try to belittle eachother with responses, people can discifer the info how they please

I learned this the hard way, just dont want to see this type of stuff happen


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

not the pfish bubba. knifemans bubba who i've seen at least 6 times.


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

What I stated is that within pygocentrus nattereri(red belly) they do not all act the same. Do all dogs act the same, do all rottweilers kill? Of course not and this statement holds true to piranha of various species...one person's rhom will hide behind its surroundings while another will act boldly and attack through the glass...does this mean the first person doesn't have a rhom? Simply because the ternetzie or simply called the yellow belly nattereri you own acts differently then your red belly nattereri does not classify it as a seperate species.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

i realize its CLASSIFIED as the same species.


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

I responded to Nate as he decided to try and break down my argument.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Abuse of the







emoticon? I knew it would happen eventually :sad:

Anyways, I dont even see what the argument is here. PK said he knows its classified as the same species....I think we will all agree it looks a little different but it is still the same species.

Let it die people. Walk away.


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

I was not offended by the flipping off as I was merely putting what I said to deserve it I guess as a sarcastic gesture and I had to assume his response with that was of the same.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Xenon said:


> Abuse of the
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I like it









people are too serious around here

_passes out brewskies to the crowd_

just relax


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Walk away.


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

Nate, the smilie face at the end of what he said I believe was out of sarcasm and humor...correct me if I'm wrong Xenon...I see you watching.


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

Speaking of emoticons...we need to get one thats similar to buddy christ from dogma...I would use it constantly.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

rosecityrhom said:


> Nate, the smilie face at the end of what he said I believe was out of sarcasm and humor...correct me if I'm wrong Xenon...I see you watching.


 I actually used the wrong one and edited.... its supposed to be a :sad:


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

rosecityrhom said:


> Speaking of emoticons...we need to get one thats similar to buddy christ from dogma...I would use it constantly.


 whats that?


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

lol sorry everyone. frank i know you have researched it and i know that ternetzis are the same as yellow natts. i was trying to classify a species by the half a dozen yellow natts i've owned which is not possible. each fish is different. no hard feelings, i hope no one is mad. have a good day all.








wes


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

You've never seen the movie Dogma? Its a great movie and I highly recommend it to all who find humor in the hypocraties of organized religion. Buddy Christ is a statue built by the catholic church to try and make it seem more hip and into it. Its a statue of Jesus doin some pose pointing his fingers at ya with a John Travolta like grin.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

way off topic.








sorry for hijacking your thread mort....


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted: Apr 30 2003, 03:05 AM
> 
> here we go AGAIN personally I laugh at people when they flip me off and return the gesture of good will
> 
> ...


The problem with your opinion Nate is that it is just that OPINION. The classification of S. ternetzi (as you have already learned) was not based on opinion but scientific fact. The people that come to this forum in particular piranha discussion come here to learn. If you want to indulge in nothing of importance (as you state above) perhaps you should limit your remarks or opinions in the lounge not in an area where the new people that come in want to learn factual information.

As for respecting people's opinion. Of course I respect their opinion, however, when it comes to scientific classifications of species when opinion is used instead of knowledge then it is no longer just an opinion. If you _feel belittled_ it is only because you set yourself up on these types of post. I'll let you figure that remark out yourself.



> PIRANHA KING Posted on Apr 30 2003, 03:20 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> lol sorry everyone. frank i know you have researched it and i know that ternetzis are the same as yellow natts. i was trying to classify a species by the half a dozen yellow natts i've owned which is not possible. each fish is different. no hard feelings, i hope no one is mad. have a good day all.
> wes


.

I understand the point you were making, but in so saying you have to understand the same as I said to Nate. People will run off faster with misinformation (as in the Bubba fish) than they would if given factual, accurate information. All because you say you have it the aquario and that would imply to a newbie that you know what you are talking about.

Digging up a fish that has since been discredited on size (ranging from 14-17 inches, if one goes by Super Nate web site) is a disservice to hobbyists and should not be used in trying to back up an opinion. It won't wash because the facts will override the unproven opinion and size of that fish. For the record, I am not upset over the posts, but indeed enjoy clearing up misinformation.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

alright, im glad its cleared up.
wes


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

The name for the Red belly has been changed during the years. 
Serrasalmus Natterei is the same as Pygo's


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## mort (Mar 14, 2003)

This topic really got outa bounds









My summary to this is that it is P. natts i have got again.... My personal opinion is that these do not look the same like my other P. natts or act the same, but i understand that fish act different like human do too...

I will study them as they grow, and post pics and vids on the way, and in 6 months we see what they will become...

I like them, and they are hungry as hell


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 30 2003, 01:27 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Frank all I was saying is that you make too big of a deal out of this stuff, read my posts on this, all I said is that in my tank the Terneti acted alot different that the reds did, and that its just a yellow Natt


Nate for the umpteenth time, you are taking a wild fish and comparing it to a tank-raised fish of the same species. Of course it will act differently, DUH. It doesn't matter what species it is. The way I interpret what you are writing; because it is a _ternetzi_ it is different from a red.

Instead what should have been stated which is more accurate and factual, wild caught fish behavior in the aquario is more inclusive of that behavior because it is not accustomed to captivity, whereas the common reds are raised from captivity, thereby their behavior is modified to live out more domesticated or in plain English used to being in captivity, so their behavior is toned down more or conditioned.

It nothing to do with color or any other such nonsense.

See the differences in the way it is presented?

Lastly, this remark:



> Frank all I was saying is that you make too big of a deal out of this stuff, read my posts on this


. Of course it is a big deal, people are here to learn not entertain fantasy and opinionated posts with no facts to back it up. That is why I suggested you might be better putting your posts (to quote you) _ of no importance_ in the lounge.

If you wish to continue this discussion, suggest putting a thread in the lounge instead of tying up space here which will only put the focus on you and not the topic at hand.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> mort Posted on Apr 30 2003, 12:56 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> My personal opinion is that these do not look the same like my other P. natts or act the same, but i understand that fish act different like human do too...


Keep in mind that though you think that fish act different like humans, they are not humans and your perception might be a bit clouded in assuming that. We have some great articles here at Pfury about learned behavior (conditioned) vs instinctual which creates an illusion they are doing things out of human-like emotion.

Good luck with your fish.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > PIRANHA KING Posted on Apr 30 2003, 03:02 AM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > one word BUBBA!
> 
> ...


 Bubba (the real Bubba from George's trip) was greatly exaggerated by all, including Josh (Serrasalmus) as happens in the excitement of catching something like that. I believe the actual size isabout that of a full grown P. nattereri (red), 12-13".

Btw, they are P. nattereri, not S. nattereri. S. nattereri was an error, a misclassification.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Wes is talking about the orignial Bubba that George sold originally to Knifeman, not the ones Josh's trip caught

this one









not sure how big it actually is but it makes my 11.5" Cariba look tiny


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 30 2003, 03:35 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Wes is talking about the orignial Bubba that George sold originally to Knifeman, not the ones Josh's trip caught


 And Knifeman refused to take fish out and measure it. So you have an exaggerated size with no facts to back it up. What's the difference?


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I was simply informing people the wrong Bubba was being spoken about, and Knifemans particular fish is unmeasured, but I am confident its over 14" TL


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> I was simply informing people the wrong Bubba was being spoken about, and Knifemans particular fish is unmeasured, but I am confident its over 14" TL


 Nate, I have purchased fish sight unseen that people were confident were a certain length, only to get them home, measure them and fined that they shrunk on the journey to my house. I do not blame people for eye balling size, but it is not very accurate and is almost always overstated.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

I'd love to see it next to a tape measure. It doesn't make your cariba look like anything unless you've put them side by side. I'd lay good money that the same is happening here as did with George's Bubba, when people eyeball it is almost always larger and some of that is no doubt wishful thinking. Perhaps it'd be best if John spoke for himself about his own fish, since he would know much better than anyone else here.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 30 2003, 03:56 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I was simply informing people the wrong Bubba was being spoken about, and Knifemans particular fish is unmeasured, but I am confident its over 14" TL


.

I'm with Neoplasia:



> Neoplasia Posted on Apr 30 2003, 04:03 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I'd love to see it next to a tape measure. It doesn't make your cariba look like anything unless you've put them side by side. I'd lay good money that the same is happening here as did with George's Bubba, when people eyeball it is almost always larger and some of that is no doubt wishful thinking. Perhaps it'd be best if John spoke for himself about his own fish, since he would know much better than anyone else here.


You not an authority on John's fish Nate. Better let the one that owns it prove its size instead of vasculating on things you know nothing about. PS: I have talked to John about his fish, you're in way over your head (again).


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

believe me, you guys are the ones that dont know whats going on, I have seen the fish, I have talked to John about it in PERSON, you are very right eye balling is hardly ever accurate, so I probably am wrong, it could be smaller it could be bigger, the only way we will know is if somebody measures it, and I can bet that will not happen, so Franky I am NOT over my head


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> believe me, you guys are the ones that dont know whats going on, I have seen the fish, I have talked to John about it in PERSON, you are very right eye balling is hardly ever accurate, so I probably am wrong, it could be smaller it could be bigger, the only way we will know is if somebody measures it, and I can bet that will not happen, so Franky I am NOT over my head


 You have seen it, on occasion. John sees it every day and I notice his absence from this discussion (I don't blame him one bit). Nate if I were a betting man I would take you to the cleaners with all the bets you would have lost around here. I don't think there's anything left to say about the fish other than you're backpedaling yet again, first you'd lay money that it's OVER 14" now you're saying you're probably wrong? Whatever. It's safe to say you're the last person people should listen to on speculatory matters.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 30 2003, 04:33 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> believe me, you guys are the ones that dont know whats going on, I have seen the fish, I have talked to John about it in PERSON, you are very right eye balling is hardly ever accurate, so I probably am wrong, it could be smaller it could be bigger, the only way we will know is if somebody measures it, and I can bet that will not happen, so Franky I am NOT over my head.


That's *Frank* to you Nate, not _Franky_.

Still does not change the reality of the fish. You are arguing a mute point much like you argue about everything else when you are clearly wrong and dance around that word by adding _probably_.

The Knifeman Bubba fish is based on speculation w/o proof or merit on size. And of course it is your opinion based on nothing but opinion. It still remains for John to prove or disprove. END OF STORY.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I was saying that I could be wrong but I said originally I would guess it to be over 14" with confidence, and I still stand by that no backpeddling, who will have complete accuracy on eye balling a fish, please show me them, and I never said this was anything more than an opinion, I really dont care, this whole issue is nothing worth argueing over, and I dont think John posts much here, he mostly does at Rons forum


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Conversation finished.

The BUBBA fish has not been verified in size so nobody can make any claims until is has been properly measured.

"Ternetzi" == natt.

case closed.

goodbye.


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