# ATTN. SMELT feeder's!



## Pat (Jul 19, 2004)

As many know thiaminase is a growth inhibitor. It is an enzyme that destroys B vitamins thus affecting fish health and growth. I have been researching nutrition for my Rhom and found out that smelt is rich in thiaminase. And what's worse it becomes more potent when frozen then thawed.

I've been feeding my rhom these because they are a nice size and he likes 'em. Not anymore.


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## Oscar5001 (Sep 22, 2005)

Any links on this info?


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## Pat (Jul 19, 2004)

Oscar5001 said:


> Any links on this info?


Do a Google search... "Thiaminase Smelt". 
Quite a few will come up.

I would love for someone to de-bunk this but it's pretty solid findings.


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## Oscar5001 (Sep 22, 2005)

Pat said:


> Any links on this info?


Do a Google search... "Thiaminase Smelt". 
Quite a few will come up.

I would love for someone to de-bunk this but it's pretty solid findings.
[/quote]

Im gonna go check it out. I've been feeding smelt to my fish for some time, but I'll sure stop if your right.


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## boontje (Mar 27, 2005)

I feed smelt too, and have read something like this before, but I've also found info about the contrary. I think this is because smelt can be found in many different places (freshwater and salt water).

I think this is one of the reasons why variation is so important.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

boontje said:


> I think this is because smelt can be found in many different places (freshwater and salt water).


Yeah, I also thought that the stuff sold as Smelt is not always the same kind of fish - but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the species used do indeed contain Thiaminase.
But damn, if this is true, what kind of other whole frozen fish is available, and safe, then?


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## aj12790 (Nov 23, 2005)

I feed mine silversides,shrimp and beefheart growing just fine


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

Yeah, catfish contains thiaminase too...
Some of the biggest piranha I've seen have been raised on a steady diet of such foods.


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## mashunter18 (Jan 2, 2004)

Interesting hadnt heard this on the smelt. Havent used smelt for quit some time...


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## Oscar5001 (Sep 22, 2005)

Pat said:


> Any links on this info?


Do a Google search... "Thiaminase Smelt". 
Quite a few will come up.

I would love for someone to de-bunk this but it's pretty solid findings.
[/quote]

Pat's right about this. Did a search and read a ton of articles. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

well dang today i went and got smelt for the kids and feed it to em for the first time just hours ago,,, oh well, i always enjoed smelt and french fries


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## Joga Bonito (Oct 30, 2004)

i dont even feed my reds smelt, they wont eat.


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

a sh*t been feeding my reds smelt for quite a while now


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## RB 32 (Mar 2, 2005)

Piranha_man said:


> Yeah, catfish contains thiaminase too...
> Some of the biggest piranha I've seen have been raised on a steady diet of such foods.


This is true about catfish containing thiaminasa but alot of people feed this to there piranhas. Any thoughts on this..


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## fliptasciouz (Jul 4, 2004)

Oh no







but I need to feed mine smelt because that is the only way i can think of for him to be able to consume with pellets, fruits and vegetables in my piranhas diet.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

Oheye8one2 said:


> well dang today i went and got smelt for the kids and feed it to em for the first time just hours ago,,, oh well, i always enjoed smelt and french fries


The fries will stunt your growth more than the smelt!









(Ever seen "Supersize Me?")


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## Pat (Jul 19, 2004)

fliptasciouz said:


> Oh no
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I imagine that if you feed them a pellet high in Vit B1 you'll be fine... just stuff them in there.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2006)

I never realized this. I was always under the misapprehension that only cyprinids contained thiaminase.

Well, it doesn't change anything for me. I rotate shrimp and two or three other fish meats for most of my fish with those dietary preferences. A nutritional deficency in any one food won't have a great impact.


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## BASSFISHERMAN (Feb 22, 2004)

Many other types of food we feed to our piranhas contain thiaminase too. Do a google search for "clams shrimp mussels thiaminase" and you'll see what i mean.

I really don't see it being too much of a problem as long as the piranhas are receiving a varied diet. If the fish are growing well and acting normally how could this thiaminase be so significant? My guess is that the levels found in smelt, catfish, and shrimp are negligible compared to those found in goldfish.

This really concerns me because I feed my p's lots of smelt and shrimp. So if anyone can add any more info I'd really appreciate it.


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

Do any of the articles specify effect to *piranhas* in general?????

I also did a seach and part of Pats original comments were similar to this excerpt:

*I would be a quite concerned about feeding too much smelt, especially
bad if frozen/thawed. Smelt contains large amounts of thiaminase, an
enzyme that breaks down thiamine (Vit. B1). Freezing fish serves to
increase those levels.* The end result can be paralysis, enlarged
hearts, anemia and even death. In addition, smelt are a fatty. oily
fish which can cause Vit E deficiency (Steatitis) and muscle dystrophy.

..................

This article was a reference pertaining to crocodial diet.

I would like to see more research done specifically on piranhas, till then I see no harm feeding smelt or catfish. In fact all my P's have been on this diet and have never experience any adverse reactions. Heck it hanst stopped my P's from breeding..................



Oscar5001 said:


> Any links on this info?


Do a Google search... "Thiaminase Smelt". 
Quite a few will come up.

I would love for someone to de-bunk this but it's pretty solid findings.
[/quote]

Pat's right about this. Did a search and read a ton of articles. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
[/quote]


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## BASSFISHERMAN (Feb 22, 2004)

HOLLYWOOD said:


> I would like to see more research done specifically on piranhas, till then I see no harm feeding smelt or catfish. In fact all my P's have been on this diet and have never experience any adverse reactions. Heck it hanst stopped my P's from breeding..................


Good to know. What percentage of your p's diet is smelt and/or catfish?

This article doesn't state the effects on piranhas, but rather on salmon.



> One of the greatest challenges to restoring Atlantic salmon may be a condition of thiamine deficiency which results from a diet of alewife and smelt. Both of these non-native prey fish contain thiaminase, an enzyme that breaks down thiamine (vitamin B-1). Thiamine deficiency has been shown to cause low reproductive success in salmonines (particularly in Atlantic salmon). It can also reduce prey avoidance, foraging ability of affected fry and migratory potential of adults, and increase mortality of pre-migratory and migratory fish


http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/MNR/fishing/lk_ont_salmon.html


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

80-90% catfish. A few years ago my p's diet consisted primarily of smelt caught in the Dyes inlet, Wa. (Saltwater).



bassfisherman said:


> Good to know. What percentage of your p's diet is smelt and/or catfish?


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## Pat (Jul 19, 2004)

This is what I was hoping for.
Excellent opinions here.

Whatever the case I will be supplementing my food with a vitamin rich liquid like Kent "Zoe". A product rich in Vit B1 or Thiamine. Also with Kent "Zoecon" as it is an (EFA's) Essential Fatty Acid complex.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

HOLLYWOOD said:


> Good to know. What percentage of your p's diet is smelt and/or catfish?


[/quote]

I was pretty sure you fed heavily on catfish (as do I), and you have MONSTER pygos... I was gonna mention that you have excellent success on such feedings, but didn't want to take the chance on saying something about you and being wrong.
Glad you posted.


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## fliptasciouz (Jul 4, 2004)

Pat said:


> This is what I was hoping for.
> Excellent opinions here.
> 
> Whatever the case I will be supplementing my food with a vitamin rich liquid like Kent "Zoe". A product rich in Vit B1 or Thiamine. Also with Kent "Zoecon" as it is an (EFA's) Essential Fatty Acid complex.


To be honest Smelts are my manny's main diet even my caribes before too and he loves it. I've been using vitamin supplement as well and soaking smelt with it and also added spiruluna pellets. Well for a year and three months now here a before and after shots.

*Before*









*After*


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## Pat (Jul 19, 2004)

fliptasciouz said:


> This is what I was hoping for.
> Excellent opinions here.
> 
> Whatever the case I will be supplementing my food with a vitamin rich liquid like Kent "Zoe". A product rich in Vit B1 or Thiamine. Also with Kent "Zoecon" as it is an (EFA's) Essential Fatty Acid complex.


To be honest Smelts are my manny's main diet even my caribes before too and he loves it. I've been using vitamin supplement as well and soaking smelt with it and also added spiruluna pellets. Well for a year and three months now here a before and after shots.

[/quote]

Wow that is remarkable growth. What liquid Vitamins do you use and how much difference is there in length in those two pics?


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## ITsPennywise (May 26, 2005)

Reading this thread makes me think all that Thiamense(sp?) talk is bs...I guess the only question I would have is...Has it been proven that Thaimense really does stunt growth? Obviously, people have fed diets rich in it...And still have succesfully come out with Monsters.

I guess all I can say is


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## fliptasciouz (Jul 4, 2004)

Pat said:


> This is what I was hoping for.
> Excellent opinions here.
> 
> Whatever the case I will be supplementing my food with a vitamin rich liquid like Kent "Zoe". A product rich in Vit B1 or Thiamine. Also with Kent "Zoecon" as it is an (EFA's) Essential Fatty Acid complex.


To be honest Smelts are my manny's main diet even my caribes before too and he loves it. I've been using vitamin supplement as well and soaking smelt with it and also added spiruluna pellets. Well for a year and three months now here a before and after shots.

[/quote]

Wow that is remarkable growth. What liquid Vitamins do you use and how much difference is there in length in those two pics?
[/quote]

Childrens vitamin syrup(infantol) and its rich with vitamin B1 check your fridge you may have some. Other fish forums suggested me to try this as it was used to prevent HITH for oscars but served only for 2nd to 3rd feedings.


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

fliptasciouz said:


> Childrens vitamin syrup(infantol) and its rich with vitamin B1 check your fridge you may have some. Other fish forums suggested me to try this as it was used to prevent HITH for oscars but served only for 2nd to 3rd feedings.


I use infantol as well. Works nicely.


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## Pat (Jul 19, 2004)

Piranha_man said:


> Childrens vitamin syrup(infantol) and its rich with vitamin B1 check your fridge you may have some. Other fish forums suggested me to try this as it was used to prevent HITH for oscars but served only for 2nd to 3rd feedings.


I use infantol as well. Works nicely.
[/quote]

Just bought my Infantol tonight! Thanks gents.
When you say you soak the food...what do you mean by that? Define soak. Few drops? Many drops?


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## fliptasciouz (Jul 4, 2004)

elTwitcho said:


> Childrens vitamin syrup(infantol) and its rich with vitamin B1 check your fridge you may have some. Other fish forums suggested me to try this as it was used to prevent HITH for oscars but served only for 2nd to 3rd feedings.


I use infantol as well. Works nicely.
[/quote]

Just bought my Infantol tonight! Thanks gents.
When you say you soak the food...what do you mean by that? Define soak. Few drops? Many drops?
[/quote]

Do many drops in a separate container with chopped smelts or tilapia and then put it in your freezer. I can assure you that this syrup will entice your piranha right away once you drop it in the tank as all of my piranhas and cichlids did which they had benefit from this.

I would preffered chopped smelt as you can stuff it with pellets like, i said earlier and i got this idea from ELtwitcho shhh...he might be listening


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## Nethius (Feb 23, 2003)

I raised my old Red's on fresh smelt (sometimes salmon), and they grew very big and very fast...


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## chasingtime (Feb 8, 2005)

what about about this product? should i soak the smelt in it or should i put it directly in the water? it says either soak food in it or put 1 capfull per 50 gallons of water up to twice a week in water. does that mean it evaporates???

Zoe Freshwater Vitamin Supplement
Directions for Use:

Direct Application
For best results, sprinkle over or soak fish food in Zoe. For frozen brine shrimp and other frozen foods, soak in Zoe overnight in refrigerator.

Indirect Application
Add one teaspoon (one capful) per 50 gallons tank capacity directly to the aquarium, up to twice a week to benefit plants and fish indirectly.

Contents: L-Ascorbic Acid 2-Sulfate Dipotassium Dihydrate, Vitamin A Propionate, Vitamin A Palmitate, D-Activated animal sterol (Vitamin D3), Folic Acid, Choline Chloride, Niacin, d-Pantothenic Acid, Thiamine (Vitamin B1), Pyridoxine (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin B12, d-Biotin, Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Vitamin K3) in a base containing Water, Spirulina Algae, Kelp, Ascophyllum Nodosum extract, and preservatives.

NOTE: NOT for human consumption or fish used for human consumption. Keep out of reach of children! Do NOT use in natural bodies of water.


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