# My piraya pair.



## HOLLYWOOD

A couple months ago I purchased this pair in hopes of breeding them. At first they were a bit reserve and would stay isolated in a corner, always together never apart. Theres been little action if any until recent. They have been circling in a head to tail fashion but no gravel blowing action as of yet. Dont really know what to make of it. Have noticed several bite marks aft the gill plate (from the furious circling action) no serious damage has occured in any of the exchanges. They darken during this period however during the breakup they lighten back to normal. Notice how dark the tail fin gets during the exchange. Heres a couple of pics. Will keep you posted on progress.


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## Lahot

what size tank are you trying it in?


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## NIKE

awsome news Arnold







i sure hope you pull it off dude







and nice picks man. Can't wait to see the little fry pics


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## serrasalmus_collector

Wow!!! Remarkable work Hollywood. I wish you the best luck with them... I am curious to what size they are???? I got 5 I raised from inch and a half, but I'm sure they are still juviniles.....

I wish you success.... This is one fish I belive that truly needs to be breed in cavtivity...


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## tecknik

Do you have these two alone or with another piraya in the tank? This is very good news, hopefully they will blow a nest soon. Please keep us updated!


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## kouma

I would also want to know what this reaction means, as my mac pair does the exact thing as you described.


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## Young Gotti

Hey good Luck Arnold! also give me a call sometime to chat.


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## MR HARLEY

OMFG......








Best of luck to you ......I am speechless...


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## HOLLYWOOD

Tank size is a 90 gal. Ive always been one to experiment and go against the grain when it comes to breeding procedures. In hindsight I would highly recommend larger than 150 gal thats at least 2 feet wide and over 6' due to high aggression and territorial issues.


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## HighOctane

They are gonna do it!!!


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## FuZZy

What an achivment this would be for someone to bread this fish. And the pfury community will through a party for you







after . Good luck with it, wish you the best of luck.


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## MStiers

This could be promising. Care to share info on filtration, water additives, diet and tank maintenance? If not I understand, but this is the first I have heard of Piraya acting in this manner. Best of luck.


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## khuzhong

GOOD LUCK!


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## Sir Nathan XXI

looking good Arnold, and I will be expecting a batch of the wee ones when they come around


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## wrathofgeo

wow nice, would be a great accomplishment, keep us posted!

george


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## HOLLYWOOD

Thanks for the comments. Im fairly sure that there are other members on this board who are attempting the same feat and have more promising signs. The only sign that I am looking for now is the blowing of the nest.


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## Bryan

Very promising Arnold. Have they done anything different for John? Keep on top of the water changes and don't forget to try the binge eating!


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## thePACK

i need to come visit you arnold...good luck


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## Xenon

good luck arnold. Awesome pics. Is this John "Knifemans" pair?


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## HOLLYWOOD

Bry,

No I have not seen anything different than what John had described here *Territoriality, or Prespawn Behavior?*.

The Pack,

Anytime.

Mike,

Yes its Johns pair. Wish I had the $$$ for the rest of his shoal.


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## Xenon

those pics are amazing


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## tecknik

thePACK said:


> i need to come visit you arnold...good luck


 I would really like to see this in person. Maybe if it is ok with you, ThePack, Rhomzilla, and I were thinking of taking a road trip down there sometime soon.


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## DiXoN

nice one i hope it comes off for you
dixon


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## tecknik

Any updates on your breeding project?


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## marco

that is so crazy. i hope they breed for you.


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## marco

can you post what the water conditions are like? ph level? temp? ect....


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## Judazzz

Man, I've completely overlooked this thread so far...









Great pics, Arnold! What size are those two beauties?

I keep my fingers crossed they'll pull it off!


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## Xenon

Judazzz said:


> Man, I've completely overlooked this thread so far...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great pics, Arnold! What size are those two beauties?
> 
> I keep my fingers crossed they'll pull it off!


 any update?


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## HOLLYWOOD

Well eversince I made a few changes to the tank the dance has stopped. I tried adding a third piraya (about 10" and assume to be male) but the smaller piraya chasssed it and took a couple nips. I took it out before any other serious injuries could occur. Since then they have staked out opposite ends of the tank and will occassionaly swim together on each ends. Looks like a very compatible pair, only time will tell if they are a breeding pair.

As far as tank conditions and water parameters are concerened ive done nothing special. I keep normal tank conditions similar to RBs. My thoughts is that if there were comfortable enough to show such interaction in the beginning theres really no need to change water conditions. I dont keep a meticulous record of water conditions. I just observe behaviour and modify accordingly. I have come to the conclusion that no matter how close you can get to replicating conditions in the wild, your pair will always dictate when they choose to spawn. The key to spawning in my mind has alot to do with conditioning. Learned this from an old pro "The Piranhaman".


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## Sir Nathan XXI

I think that closely reproducing wild type water conditions can help get them in the mood, or perhaps give you better odds, but its certainly not a fool proof plan. Like Arnold says, alot of it has to do with have a pair (a male and female) that actually want to mate. Perhaps they are like humans and are selective breeders (humans are becoming less and less selective though







)


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## tecknik

I think we males are down to breed







but its the women that are being selective


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## CrocKeeper

It would be just plain freakin awesome to see someone spawn piraya!


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## HOLLYWOOD

For those who've been waiting for an update the pair seemed to have taken a break from all the action. Bite mark wounds on the sides of each piraya have healed. Hopefully its just a resting period. Will keep you posted.


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## yauyau

Hi!!!!!HOLLYWOOD.

You piraya is very good and good colour. I like .








you give what fish eat .please pm me.thank.


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## JYUB

LOL @ nathan, I wouldnt add anymore fish, but just let them take the course, I ahve noticed in breeding it can take up to a week and a half for some fish to go through the color blending then mate....sometimes it doesnt happen, though, be patient, sounds like they'll mate if they are infact changing colors!!!

good luck


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## HOLLYWOOD

Took several pics last night. Looks like they've been chasing each other again. This behaviour worries me now since the bite marks are much more different from before. Theres bite marks all along the side of one while the other has only a few. It doesnt seem to be a territorial issue since there are times that I will see both in a corner side by side. Pre spawnning behaviour..... maybe. Never really seen this sort of behaviour in breeding reds then again they are not indigineous to the Rio Sao Francisco. Just got me worried. Hopefully I dont come home to one floating to the top. They eat daily but then again that never stopped p's from biting each other and inflicting serious wounds. Ill post pics tonight.


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## tecknik

Hey Arnold, is there a way you can post a short vid? I'm just curious to see this behavior (if you can)...


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## HOLLYWOOD

Sure someone will have to compress and host the file for me. Any takers?


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## tecknik

I have an FTP server running at home but my upload speed isnt that great. If someone has a high upload DSL or Cable, please volunteer! If no one does, then I will try hosting it.


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## skater_4_lyfe

hope they spawn


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## Raptor

Great new arnold







Hope you can get those puppies to go at it







That sure would be nice! Coulden't have happened to a nicer guy! Good luck again!


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## HOLLYWOOD

At this point im more concerned about coming home to a dead piraya rather than a spawn. Now I know how John felt. These pics dont do any justice to theyre natural state colorwise and bitemarks.


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## SLANTED

Not looking good.








But still keeping our fingers crossed.


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## MStiers

Those bite marks look like they are getting a little more serious. I hope it tapers off a bit. Good luck.


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## FuZZy

Holly im going through the same kind of bite marks with my breeding reds. Its been a little more then a month since they have been laying eggs like crazy.

I see that you feed them everyday, but whats the longest period of time you have went with out feeding them? I have had sucsses with with starving them for 4-5 days then doing a big feeding at night before all the lights go out and been waking up in the morning to see eggs. I would be very worried to do this if i had only 2 piraya in a tank that are going through the breeding process. Good Luck man and i hope you pull this off for your self and the pfury community.


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## HOLLYWOOD

FuZZy said:


> I see that you feed them everyday, but whats the longest period of time you have went with out feeding them?


 I would say the same amount of time 4-5 days but that was when I first got them. Actually they wouldnt eat. It took some time and since then I just wanted to bulk them up a little bit more. The most they have gone without food has been 2 days. Ill drop the food in the tank and if its not consumed within the first hour ill take it out. Do the same the next day. Daily feedings has not stopped them from doing the "twirl". This morning I checked and they are at it again.


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## hastatus

John (aka Knifeman) has always shown a unique method of describing his p activity without all the hype often written from other hobbyists who over create their enthusiasm.









The bite marks along the belly cavity concern me as well as these are areas that escavation occurs on an egg bound female from other piranas. I would certainly consider not feeding one large amount but small consistent portions over a daily period. Be watchful of temperature and be more observant (when possible) on what leads up to the bites (prior to feeding or after as a thought).

Thanks for keeping us all abreast of the piraya mating probabilities.


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## Death in #'s

those are sweet
but it sucks that they are fighting


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## Sir Nathan XXI

reducing the pH helped mellow my cariba some, going from 7.4 to like 6.6 over a few weeks made a huge difference, maybe its coincidence, maybe not.

but as pH went back over about 6 weeks so did the hostility until they went on a killing spree


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## caribes?

hastatus said:


> I would certainly consider not feeding one large amount but small consistent portions over a daily period.


 are you not suppose to feed breeders as much as normal?


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## HOLLYWOOD

As I thought the "twirl" got worse. They sustained more bite injuries to the side tearing through the skin. Ive separated each and have suspended breeding attempts until they heal. In the mean time ive separated the pair using a plastic egg crate as a divider.

In this experiment Ive come up with the following:

1. If the "twirlling" activity continues I could loose one piraya.

2. I definitely need a larger tank. Although these pirayas demonstrated this behaviour in a 90 gal sufficient space could have provided quick getaway from such close aggressive interaction (twirl).

3. Either they are both egg boung females trying to get at each other's eggs.

4. The "twirl" could have been an aggressive behaviour rather than prespawnning.

Im open to any other explanations that you can come up with. The water conditions have been normal. I have not increased nor decrease water temp to initiate such behaviour. They seem to do it on they're own untriggered. Sigh......


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## hastatus

In reply to Hollywood PM:

They do indeed spawn on roots, namely water cabbage with trailing roots. Water Hyacinthe would be a suitable replacement, or use a commercial floating spawning mop. If you recall I was to find you an article regarding the observed natural breeding behavior of Piraya. However, have not had time to locate the article which is mentioned in the old Myers Piranha Book. I'll look tomorrow and see if I can find it.

The first ray of the anal is individual traits and has nothing to do with sexual dimorphism (unfortunately). Only a limited species of Serrasalmin fishes have only the bilobed anal fin and no other SD has been noted without this trait. Some species of characins have "ducts" or glands on the caudal fin, but no pirana has ever displayed this. The pituary gland would effect color to a certain degree and not skeletal traits which is individualistic.

Feeding potential predatory breeders like a pirana is a touchy situation since each pirana pair behaves uniquely and individually. I suggested the minimal feeding stretched over a course of day than one large feeding opportune solely because it gives the piranas something to think about other than each others. You don't want to much aggression in that small tank you have them in. As I suggested at the beginning of this operation and subsequent other hobbyists who wish to breed piraya, these are large fish requiring huge gallonage. I'm not saying its impossible to breed them in a small container like that 90g. but your chances are much better in a larger aquario of 200g or better. I certainly would keep a check of the pH, ammonia and nitrates to be sure they are within normal parameters. While eyeball viewing is helpful it doesn't replace a good chemical analysis kit just in case. Ammonia can cause aggression in fishes as does high temperature. I would certainly keep a good check on it. pH in pirana breeding is of little importance as they have been bred in almost all conditions including hard water, but it wouldn't hurt to try and keep it within the suggested river norm of 6.8-7.2 just the same. Water temp should be around 79-82F. Higher temp preferable to commence breeding behavior.


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## HOLLYWOOD

Good stuff Frank! I m saving up for a much larger tank then will proceed with the breeding project. In the mean time this has been a valuable learning experience in breeding piraya.


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## hastatus

Excerpt Myers, Piranhas pg. 43 and 46:

_Hartt (1870, p. 401) gives a very circumstantial account of the breeding, as told to him by a fishermen on the S. Francisco River. The fish clean out a shallow nest on the sandy bottom and spawn on it. The female guards the nest and viciously attacks any animal or human who comes near. The laying is said to take place principally in October soon after the rains raise the water level. Almost certainly the species was S. piraya._

There are other references in Myers to a "hanging nest of the perai" which is a coconut shaped object floating on the water hanging from a palm tree, but Myers dismisses it. However, I don't as some species of pirana are known to spawn on plant roots and makes perfect sense to me the fishes would choose an over hanging object.

My suggestion to anyone here is to gather information on water parameters for October and go from there. Sandy bottom may be another clue.


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## munky2000r

could some of Tetra's Black Water extract help?


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## HOLLYWOOD

hastatus said:


> Excerpt Myers, Piranhas pg. 43 and 46:
> 
> _Hartt (1870, p. 401) gives a very circumstantial account of the breeding, as told to him by a fishermen on the S. Francisco River. The fish clean out a shallow nest on the sandy bottom and spawn on it. The female guards the nest and viciously attacks any animal or human who comes near. The laying is said to take place principally in October soon after the rains raise the water level. Almost certainly the species was S. piraya._
> 
> There are other references in Myers to a "hanging nest of the perai" which is a coconut shaped object floating on the water hanging from a palm tree, but Myers dismisses it. However, I don't as some species of pirana are known to spawn on plant roots and makes perfect sense to me the fishes would choose an over hanging object.
> 
> My suggestion to anyone here is to gather information on water parameters for October and go from there. Sandy bottom may be another clue.


 I have heard from one of the members on the board that he witness P. Piraya blowing a nest however this never occured with my pair. I believe John said this pair blew a nest in his tank.

In responce to the black water extract I did use some earlier on but to my recollection nothing really happened. I dont have that much confidence in this products ability to affect breeding in Piranhas. Then again thats my opinion.


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## serrasalmus_collector

HOLLYWOOD said:


> hastatus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Excerpt Myers, Piranhas pg. 43 and 46:
> 
> _Hartt (1870, p. 401) gives a very circumstantial account of the breeding, as told to him by a fishermen on the S. Francisco River. The fish clean out a shallow nest on the sandy bottom and spawn on it. The female guards the nest and viciously attacks any animal or human who comes near. The laying is said to take place principally in October soon after the rains raise the water level. Almost certainly the species was S. piraya._
> 
> There are other references in Myers to a "hanging nest of the perai" which is a coconut shaped object floating on the water hanging from a palm tree, but Myers dismisses it. However, I don't as some species of pirana are known to spawn on plant roots and makes perfect sense to me the fishes would choose an over hanging object.
> 
> My suggestion to anyone here is to gather information on water parameters for October and go from there. Sandy bottom may be another clue.
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard from one of the members on the board that he witness P. Piraya blowing a nest however this never occured with my pair. I believe John said this pair blew a nest in his tank.
> 
> In responce to the black water extract I did use some earlier on but to my recollection nothing really happened. I dont have that much confidence in this products ability to affect breeding in Piranhas. Then again thats my opinion.
Click to expand...

 I think black water isn't used like people think. In my experiences I use it in the dry season simulation. When the water lowers, and the river dies&#8230; All the plant vegetation will decay and tanis acid will seep into the waters increasing PH, along with dissolved solids. But once the rainy season comes there is no need for black water extract. The water becomes more pure, alkaline, with a reduced hardness. The increase and decrease in hardness my not be the same. Some South American streams get run-off from the mountains, and the hardness may actually increase.

I know you are a very good breeder Hollywood. I would never question your methods. Those are just some of the ones I use for wild caught&#8230;. Captives are a different story, they have never been through an actual dry season/ rainy season scenario&#8230;.

But with that there is always a paradox in piranha breeding. The methods I use are for fish trapped during the dry season&#8230;

Here is the paradox. What about the fish that aren't trapped. They are in cooler water not as much tannis acid&#8230; When the rainy season occurs the neighboring shallow streams over flow, and bled into the deeper water. An in depth study of the river and neighboring streams during rainy dry season may yield some illogical secrets kept by nature&#8230;


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## FuZZy

serrasalmus_collector said:


> I know you are a very good breeder Hollywood. I would never question your methods. Those are just some of the ones I use for wild caught&#8230;. Captives are a different story, they have never been through an actual dry season/ rainy season scenario&#8230;.


 Intresting. I had no clue you guys you different techniques for Captive and Wild Caught.

When somone here has sucess for instance breeding pirayas, do you think it will make it easier to breed the ones that have been tank raised?


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## serrasalmus_collector

FuZZy said:


> serrasalmus_collector said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know you are a very good breeder Hollywood. I would never question your methods. Those are just some of the ones I use for wild caught&#8230;. Captives are a different story, they have never been through an actual dry season/ rainy season scenario&#8230;.
> 
> 
> 
> Intresting. I had no clue you guys you different techniques for Captive and Wild Caught.
> 
> When somone here has sucess for instance breeding pirayas, do you think it will make it easier to breed the ones that have been tank raised?
Click to expand...

 THis is purely speculation, but I would think the tank bred, and raised would be different. I use the word tank becuase I have been told the fish are trapped, and also bred in ponds in South America.... Verification to pond raised, and trapped bred, has not been validated. But very possible


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## HOLLYWOOD

I dont have a solid background in modifying water conditions as Serrasalmus Collector. Hes more of an expert in that area. If you dont know what your doing it could cause more harm than good. Thats why I stick to the basics of providing good water quality and sticking close it its natural PH and temp conditions. This could provide drawbacks as I may be missing some key ingredient to the triggering phase but in my opinion I believe that when they are ready they will breed. All I can do is provide suitable water conditions, tank space and food.

As far as immitating the dry season there are various ways you can attempt this without the need of using chem or adjusting PH.


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## serrasalmus_collector

Thanks for the kind words hollywood. I have been working with a guy breeding Motoro Stingrays, and learning a lot.. I won't go into detail, it's not piranha... But it is very interesting...


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## tweaked

Hollywood ... sorry to hear about the progess on the breeding attempt. If you are thinking about trying this again in a larger tank ... were you thinking about trying to add another fish to the mix? Because of the high price on these guys ... maybe throw in a few large reds to help spread the aggression.

Anyhow ... keep us posted when you decide to give it another try.


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## Raptor

One of my old 9 inch piraya's had blown a nest, and had another smaller piraya, pinned in the top corner of the tank. The smaller one didn't want nothing to do with him. Sc may have seen the nest because he bought the smaller 7-8 incher, and ash bought the other. I know ash seen the deep nest it had blown. It was thru over 3 inches of fine gravel, Thru to the glass.


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## tweaked

Hollywood ... a thought just came to mind ...

Have you tried a cold water flush on the potential pair? 40-60% water change and flush with straight tap water. Of course make sure to plug back in your heater at whatever set temp you had prior? As for temp have you tried a 78-80 degree temp? I'm too lazy to check what temp you mentioned that you had them in when they first started showing signs.


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## HOLLYWOOD

Tweaked,

Good tought. At one point I did try the cold water trick, sometimes it made them do the "twirl" while other times it had no affect. Whats important right now is understanding if the "twirl" has any relation to pre-spawnning.

My thoughts is that this behaviour does not have anything to do with prespawnning rather just aggressive behaviour. I have heard numerous accounts of other hobbyist owning Piraya which have dug nests and have darken. To me that bears more weight and describes how the pygocentrus species spawn.

Then again I have not seen wild caught piraya breed in captivity or in the wild. So this behaviour could be pre-spawnning in the wild. As Frank pointed out _ "There are other references in Myers to a "hanging nest of the perai" which is a coconut shaped object floating on the water hanging from a palm tree, but Myers dismisses it. However, I don't as some species of pirana are known to spawn on plant roots and makes perfect sense to me the fishes would choose an over hanging object."_


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## tweaked

The cold water flush usually works with my reds, about 75% of the time. Being that these are pretty much the same genius of fish, I would "like" to think that the behaviors and methods would be the same granted I've never tried myself.

The "Twirl" sounds more like prespawn behavior rather than aggression. You've breed reds and probably have noticed that "aggressive" behaviors results in a lot more damage in terms of the bites. The pics looks more like hard bumps that reds cause each other in the prespawn. I've noticed that when a pair is having disputes on where to nest, the aggressive bumps and bites increase.

What leads me to this thinking is that I'm trying an expierment on a proven pair of reds in a 20gal long right now. The male is 8" and the female is 10". I originally divided the tank into thirds leaving the center empty with driftwood on one side and some rocks on the other side. The male wanted to build the nest near the wood, while the female wanted to nest near the rock. This went on for about a month with no eggs, but a lot of body damage. I even tried adding another male which resulted in nothing but more battel scares. Then I removed the new male and added another female with the same negative results. By the end of the second month I was getting ready to give up on the expierement. But ...

So what I ended up doing is clearing the tank leaving nothing but a patch of plastic spawning grass on one side and then a yarn ball (green/blue mix) anchored by a small rock that the pair has been moving every other day. This seems to have reduced the level of aggressiveness and the pair is cooperating with each other. They had a small spawn last week that I accidently killed with a cold water flush.









Now to shorten a long story ... the bulk of the aggressive behavior was due to space and nesting sites. A complete re-arranging of the tank with min possible nesting had positive results ... at least with reds.

So you have 2 choices when you decide to start the expierment again. One is a bigger tank. Second, try different nesting materials leaving a min of possiblities. If in fact piraya's will lay eggs on an over hang, maybe try a piece of bogwood in one corner and something completely out of the ordinary like the yarn ball on the other side.


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## tweaked

HOLLYWOOD said:


> Whats important right now is understanding if the "twirl" has any relation to pre-spawnning.


 Try adding another fish whether piraya or just some plain large reds (I would go with the reds myself in the event of death). Some people won't agree with me, but I would think that if the pair is bonded or partially bonded with a potential to spawn, the next time they go into the "Twirl" mode, they'll cause more damage to the newly added fish and may push them closer to spawning.

In other words ... if they are a potential pair with the desire to do the dirty, they'll double team the new guy for some privacy.









Maybe the next time they do their thing add in a large red and see if they continue their dance or if they go on a killing spree. Of course keep an eye out and be ready to separate them.

Yes sounds mean for the red, but if the piraya's are fighting for terriority, then adding a weaker or smaller fish like a red should turn the aggression to the red.

Am I making sense ....? For some reason I can't put my thoughts down in a logical format ... Oh well ... time for some more coffee.


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## tecknik

When I talked to Hollywood, he said he tried putting in another piraya and they displayed aggressive behavior toward the other piraya (correct me if I am wrong, Hollywood). He removed the third piraya to avoid losing him. Tweaked, adding a red sounds good, sort of a "sacrifice" in trying to get them to spawn. But do you think adding a different kind of pygo other than a piraya would actually deter them from spawning? Any thoughts?


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## HOLLYWOOD

Tweaked,

The reason why I dont think that the "twirl" is not pre-spawnning is that the way the pirayas are faced (head to tail) vs spawnning reds which face (head to head, tail to tail) then shiver. I compare the "twirl" similar to a hockey stand off stance. Its much more aggressive than the way reds twich side to side. Plus the damage is not as severe than the way these larger pirayas are ripping each others sides. Who knows you could be right for all I know.

In responce to technik, yes I did add a third piraya then quickly removed it. I also tried adding a pair of breeding reds but that stopped the twirl altogether since the reds were always getting in between the piraya. The reds were too stressed they never really tried to breed.


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## tweaked

tecknik said:


> When I talked to Hollywood, he said he tried putting in another piraya and they displayed aggressive behavior toward the other piraya (correct me if I am wrong, Hollywood). He removed the third piraya to avoid losing him. Tweaked, adding a red sounds good, sort of a "sacrifice" in trying to get them to spawn. But do you think adding a different kind of pygo other than a piraya would actually deter them from spawning? Any thoughts?


Okay ... I guess that adding another piraya was tried. My thinking was in case the 2 in the tank are of the same sex. I started a thread awhile back, but have not had time to follow thru with more detailed pics. In that thread was something I noticed on my female reds near the anus that looked like a tube of type ro pimple. Even though these aren't reds ... have either of you guys noticed any similar differences in your piraya's? That is, do you notice 2 body types or something that seems common to only some, but not the others?

As for adding a red ... my thought was to use it as sort of a dither fish. Also it may add more of natural enivornment where the piraya's might look at reproducing as a means of survival of the fitest. The only thing wrong that I can think of Hollywood with your attempt of adding the breeding pair of reds is that it actually increased the stress level higher between both types of P's. Not to mention increased terrioritial issues. A single red will probably not attempt to setup a nesting site and guard it.

Tecknik ... if I remember seeing somewhere ... you got a good size shoal of piraya's right ...? Congrats .... if you are going to trying your hand at breeding ... then my question is are you planning to separate the prospects into another tank? or are you going to try and breed within the community tank? Adding a Red as a dither fish in my opinion is only a possible if they are separated from the main shoal. If you leave the potential pair in the main shoal ... the other piraya's are your distraction fish.


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## tweaked

HOLLYWOOD said:


> The reason why I dont think that the "twirl" is not pre-spawnning is that the way the pirayas are faced (head to tail) vs spawnning reds which face (head to head, tail to tail) then shiver. I compare the "twirl" similar to a hockey stand off stance. Its much more aggressive than the way reds twich side to side. Plus the damage is not as severe than the way these larger pirayas are ripping each others sides. Who knows you could be right for all I know.


 My red's will do the twirl thing head on as well as head to tail. The pair I have in the 20L is doing it as I type. Both of them are still deciding on the nesting site blowing nest all over the place and then covering them back up









Have they even blown a nest that you noticed? If not, you might want to try some of the things that I've mentioned above keeping in mind that it's worked only for reds ... I haven't tried breeding piraya's.


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## tecknik

tweaked said:


> Tecknik ... if I remember seeing somewhere ... you got a good size shoal of piraya's right ...? Congrats .... if you are going to trying your hand at breeding ... then my question is are you planning to separate the prospects into another tank? or are you going to try and breed within the community tank? Adding a Red as a dither fish in my opinion is only a possible if they are separated from the main shoal. If you leave the potential pair in the main shoal ... the other piraya's are your distraction fish.


 My pirayas are unfortunately too small to breed and are not sexually mature. I am estimating within a year they will be around 7" plus. Look out for a future piraya breeding project.


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## serrasalmus_collector

Wow!!! great topic... Lot's of cool info... Maybe I can help. I remember the original owner talking about it raining every day... Hmmmm I have had more success with the cold water trick timed with a drop in apmospheric pressure...









Never realy tried in the winter, but I will this year. Possibly getting 10 day weather forcast and attempting a rush dry season, with a flush targeted around a storm and add more possitive factors... Just an idea :rock:


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## Guest

> Have you tried a cold water flush on the potential pair? 40-60% water change and flush with straight tap water. Of course make sure to plug back in your heater at whatever set temp you had prior?


 with the cold water flush, about whats the temp of the water in the tank when you finish(tank just filled, you didnt turn the heaters on yet)?


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## mattmatt123

i hope they breed for you and not kill eachother best of luck man


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## tweaked

with the cold water flush, about whats the temp of the water in the tank when you finish(tank just filled, you didnt turn the heaters on yet)? [/quote]
After the large water change (probably want to do a through gravel at the same time) you will definately want to plug the heater back in. The temp set should be just a few degrees above what your normal tank temp was at prior. Another try is to increase the temp a few days prior to the flush. Now the temp in the tank after the cold water flush will be several degrees cooler and should warm back slowly in a few days depending on how strong your heater is.

You should monitor the condition of the P's during this period. I wouldn't spend too much time staring at them cause they should be left in a relatively undisbused state.

Should you attempt the method of increasing the temp ... you should power feed the shoal and then during the cold water flush period ... no feeding should be made. If you're the type that's really concern about starving them ... toss in a handful of feeders. As the temp increases above the regular temp, and assuming no feeders are left ... make one large feeding and then leave them alone with no more feedings for a few days. During this period, watch for breeding signs. If after a max of a week, and there are no signs ... then repeat until something happens or you plain give up.


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## tweaked

serrasalmus_collector said:


> Wow!!! great topic... Lot's of cool info... Maybe I can help. I remember the original owner talking about it raining every day... Hmmmm I have had more success with the cold water trick timed with a drop in apmospheric pressure...


 SC ... how are you duplicating the apmospheric pressure thing? Or are you timing it to the high/low pridictions?


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## andymel

Good luck. Exciting stuff!


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## serrasalmus_collector

tweaked said:


> serrasalmus_collector said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow!!! great topic... Lot's of cool info... Maybe I can help. I remember the original owner talking about it raining every day... Hmmmm I have had more success with the cold water trick timed with a drop in apmospheric pressure...
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> SC ... how are you duplicating the apmospheric pressure thing? Or are you timing it to the high/low pridictions?
Click to expand...

 Well the best is to get a 10 or 14 day forcast. Those can be found online. THe weather can be unpredictabile, and can really screw up the breeding attempts. Back and forth wet/dry isn't good the the fish... It stresses them tremendiously. Some species of if it can actually age them..... The ageing and piranhas I know nothing about, just something I read online...

All I can truly say is planning the start of the rainy season around a drop in atmospheric pressure has brought me remarkable success, with stubborn wild caught piranhas...


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## mantis

great info guys, this thread *is* exciting


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## hastatus

I went over the Schulte book and found 2 references to keeping P. piraya. Keep in mind they have gross ID problems in that book so the piraya may not be piraya at all.

Frankfurt * Aquarium in the zoological gardens; species: probably Serrasalmus piraya. Tank size: c. 3500 liters (900 U.S. gallons). Water: temperature 24C (75F) pH 7, hardness 12 DH. Diet: fed once to twice a week.

Munich * Aquarium in the zoological gardens Hellabrunn; Species: possibly Serrasalmus piraya. Tank size: 10,000 liters (2500 U.S. gallons). Water: temperature 24-26C (75-79 F). Feweding: twice weekly, raw horse heart cut into small pieces, horse meat, whitefish from time to time.

Keep in mind, Germans are very meticulous in their fish care and I believe they would approximate natural conditions in those aquarios.

Having been to Germany and had the opportunity to visit some of the zoological parks, I saw only P. nattereri with an occasional spiloCF mixed in the shoal. I saw no piraya in Frankfurt (1979). So unless the fish was lost or I missed it, I hold that ID suspect.


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## HOLLYWOOD

serrasalmus_collector said:


> Well the best is to get a 10 or 14 day forcast. Those can be found online. THe weather can be unpredictabile, and can really screw up the breeding attempts. Back and forth wet/dry isn't good the the fish... It stresses them tremendiously. Some species of if it can actually age them..... The ageing and piranhas I know nothing about, just something I read online...
> 
> All I can truly say is planning the start of the rainy season around a drop in atmospheric pressure has brought me remarkable success, with stubborn wild caught piranhas...


 SC,

You've mentioned some very important factors that we need to take in consideration when attempting to spawn any particular fish. Im surprised that we dont stress this as much. Thanks for your insight!


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## thePACK

wow...i'm speechless..great topic..great posts....good luck hollywood..fingers crossed for you on next attempt..


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## tecknik

Hollywood, how are your piraya pair? Any updates?


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## HOLLYWOOD

No news besides the fact that I have added a third piraya into the tank. It was the same one I had attempted to add earlier. This piraya is just as aggressive and the same dance/twirl occured with one of the pair. My guess is that this so called "pre-spawnning" behaviour is nothing but aggressive behaviour. Not really territorial because it happens on different areas of the tank. One chases the other then they get into a head to tail position and do the twirl. The bite marks are more pronounced in the belly region of the thickest piraya.


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## Raptor

I am having some weird moments in my tank. Three of the 6-7 inch piraya have been tilted down circling each other nipping occaisionally (Nothing really aggressive) in front of the 8-9 incher. Their tails go jet black also when they do it. The 8-9 incher is seemingly inspecting them all, and seems to nudge the larger of the three occaisionally. The 12 incher is not getting involved, and seems non interested by this. He has more fun chasing the ternetzi's around. Nothing more that this yet.


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## HOLLYWOOD

Sounds similar to what im experiencing with this trio.


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## HOLLYWOOD

UPDATE:

After I stopped all breeding attempts I decided to place them in a 125 gal along with other larger terns. One day I performed a typical 20% water change and found one piraya dazed in a corner. Several days later this piraya was cannibalized by the larger ternetzi. Looked at the piraya and noticed that it still had clumps of eggs in its belly. Never knew that this was the female until I saw the eggs. Disappointing as it may sound I will use this as a learning lesson for future attempts.


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## thePACK

sorry to hear arnold...i know how you must have felt


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## tecknik

Sorry for your loss


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## HOLLYWOOD

Was the most expensive loss to date.


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## MR HARLEY

Those Piraya are beautiful


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## HOLLYWOOD

It acted like it was stunned and just stayed at the bottom right had corner of the tank. I found it with 3/4 flesh gone but the tail fin was intact, it was also still gasping. I took it out and froze it. Unfortunately I did not take any pics. I may still have the body frozen in the freezer. Ill take it out and post pics tonight.


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## NIKE

sorry for the bad news Arnold


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## pinchy

im going to get a couple more piraya for my tank and try to get them to mate when they get big enough.


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## MR HARLEY

pinchy said:


> im going to get a couple more piraya for my tank and try to get them to mate when they get big enough.


 Good Luck ....
If anyone could do-it , it would have been Hollywood ...


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## jamesdelanoche

Hollywood, i like how you arent afraid to try things. I am hopefully getting a tank with some piraya, if it doesnt sell before i get money. After I get a feel for my fish (like a year, i don't want to rush into anything) I want to try to breed. Arent you from the portland area? If so, maybe you would like to work together down the road. I am a student at PSU so maybe i can find info and what not. I personally think the key will be replicating water conditions and landscape. I don't know, but I think its really cool to see you doing this and I would like to help in any way possible. Sorry for your loss but again, you've got any help I can give.


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## KrazyCrusader

Wow this is sure an old thread that's been broughht back


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## HOLLYWOOD

Agreed.


KrazyCrusader said:


> Wow this is sure an old thread that's been broughht back
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> [snapback]837134[/snapback]​


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