# Thiaminase Kills



## Guest

I just watched a special on the Nat Geo Wild channel called 'Zombie Alligators' I thought had a subject relevent to Piranha-Fury.

The show started out as a mystery as to why hundreds of alligators were getting ill and dying in a Lake Griffin Florida. Necropsies revealed neurological damage. This brain damage explained all the symptoms common among the alligators, including disorientation, loss of balance, nerve damage and drowning &#150;it seemed that for some reason, portions of these alligators&#146; brains were dying while they were still alive.

To make a long story short, the culprit was revealed to be Thiaminase. The alligators were found to be feeding almost exclusively on Gizzard Shad, afish that contains thiaminase. The thiaminase caused severe Vitamin B1 deficiencies creating the neurological damage and ultimately the gator's death.

It's interesting to note that the show never mentioned the alligators' growth being stunted or any changes to their appearance.

For me, this is further evidence that a diet of feeder goldfish for any animal, fish or reptile, is a death sentence.


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## Ba20

Good find bullsnake


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## TheSpaz13

yea man, people definitely dont realize the effects feeders have, I know I didnt when I first got mine...


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## FEEFA

Great post BS thanks for sharing


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## Plowboy

Excellent finnd BS! I'm checking to see when it's on next or if I can download it.

This might even be confused as a swim bladder disease.


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## Soul Assassin

I was wondering how often/much do predators need to eat thiaminase containing foods to get messed up. Many members feed lots of shrimp to their Ps that contain thiaminase; without many negative side-effects, or so it seems. The other thing was what happens when you mix thiaminase containing foods with non-thiaminase contatining foods in the same meal/time. Do the thiaminase containing food corrupt the non-thiaminase containing food; making the whole meal bad? It would be interesting to find out.


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## memento

Were these gators not poisoned by algae ?

Zombie Gators video

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2001-02-03/news/0102030095_1_blue-green-algae-toxic-blue-green-toxic-algae


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## Guest

No, the algae bloom from fertilizers led to a burgeoning population of gizzard shad.
The alligators ate the gizzard shad and died from the thiaminase.


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## Rugged Child

Bullsnake said:


> No, the algae bloom from fertilizers led to a burgeoning population of gizzard shad.
> The alligators ate the gizzard shad and died from the thiaminase.


Very informative Post. Thank you for sharing


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## redbellyman21

thanx bullsnake great find. I tell people all the time at the lfs I work at on saturdays that they are stupid to feed goldies or rosies... When they ask why I can give them a simple answer... no goldfish in the amazon.


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## memento

Bullsnake said:


> No, the algae bloom from fertilizers led to a burgeoning population of gizzard shad.
> The alligators ate the gizzard shad and died from the thiaminase.


Definately an interesting topic








Do you know a link of the entire program ? Or the documents / research ? Would be good stuff for a warning on the Dutch PF


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## Da' Manster!

redbellyman21 said:


> thanx bullsnake great find. I tell people all the time at the lfs I work at on saturdays that they are stupid to feed goldies or rosies... When they ask why I can give them a simple answer... no goldfish in the amazon.


Well, do you also tell them that it's stupid to feed them shrimp as well?!..(which is what the vast majority of forum members on here do, so they are guilty of the same thing)..FYI, Shrimp contains as much Thiaminase as feeder goldfish...Back to the point, People in the hobby have been giving feeder goldfish (myself included)for many years without any problems...there many other contributing factors as well which contribute to unwanted diseases and untimely death..Hell, Pedro, George, and Alex all well respected sponsors and well experienced piranha handlers STILL give their P's feeder goldfish as does Richard (who owns Riverdale Pets, my LFS that deals exclusively with Piranhas)..As a matter of fact, Richard has Rhoms, ternetzi's, Caribe's all in the 12-18 inch range!..some beautiful and healthy monsters!...I'll take some pics next time I'm in D.C.!...Point being is let's not get carried away with this article...I'd be willing to bet there were other extrenuating circumstances which contributed to the gators death..Besides, this evidence isn't based on empirical data so it might have been a one time "fluke" occurence..Once again, if Thiaminase was as deadly as some believe, then most piranha's would have already been wiped out of the hobby a very long time ago...Here is another interesting link on Thiaminase...It basically rehashes everything that has already been said but also contains other very valuable information...Take it for it's worth....

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm


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## Jared35

Very cool info!


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## redbellyman21

my idea is to keep the habitat as natural as can be. Hell I have even started using local amazonian plants to help filter water... so I mean if goldfish is what u want to feed, be my guest its just not for me... I see your point about using alternative food that contain the thiaminase and thats bad too... but heres the end all be all. unless u breed your own food, you are feeding them crap if you use a "feeder" goldfish. They are hormone induced, disease ridden, vile fish that are available in 97% of LFS, so if u want to buy feeder goldfish, quarantine them for 2 weeks, feed them quality foods so they can provide actual substance for the piranha, and care for their tanks and filtration on top of your display tanks be my guest.. I will stick with nutrient soaked vitamin foods..


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## black_piranha

oh wowww.
thanks for this find.
further proves why we shouldn't feed goldfish as feeders


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## His Majesty

just came across this thread now. thanks for the post BS. was very interesting


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## BRUNER247

Lmao! Da manster says it all!!! Redbellyman wtf??you keep as natural of a tank as you can but you feed pellets soaked in whatever.kinda defeats your whole natural tank If you ask me!!I'm curious redbellyman just how natural can you make that glass cage?? There's a lot of feeders out there besides just goldfish n rosies! Your fish should be eating a wide variety of food!not just soaked pellets! Idk. You guys are missing out on a lot of good natural cheap food you could be feeding your fish. Ill feed mine great natural food over extruded man-made pellets soaked in man-made whatever anyday!! Don't get me wrong I feed pellets also but I feed a lot of things ALIVE n dead!


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## hugoale1

thanks for the info, cyprinidae = thyaminase, beware.


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## FEEFA

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm

Found this after googleing thiaminase.


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## Ba20

Why all the negative feedback


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## Soul Assassin

****** said:


> http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm
> 
> Found this after googleing thiaminase.


Nice find man, that's why I stopped feeding shrimp months ago.

Hey Bruner, what do you think?


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## FEEFA

I'm currently keeping a jardini and shrimp and hikari are what I feed.
Thats why I brought this thread back up, if its that bad then I will try tillapia chuncks instead of shrimp then


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## wisco_pygo

Soul Assassin said:


> http://www.wetwebmed.../thiaminase.htm
> 
> Found this after googleing thiaminase.


Nice find man, that's why I stopped feeding shrimp months ago.

Hey Bruner, what do you think?
[/quote]

1- i may stop feeding shrimp

2-


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## Soul Assassin

wisco_pygo said:


> http://www.wetwebmed.../thiaminase.htm
> 
> Found this after googleing thiaminase.


Nice find man, that's why I stopped feeding shrimp months ago.

Hey Bruner, what do you think?
[/quote]

1- i may stop feeding shrimp

2-








[/quote]

I dont get it.









Anyway, I'm not trying to change anyones' feeding haggits, why would I care what you feed your fish? Just sharing what I do based on the articles that I have read to date.

Also, not trying to be a prick to Bruner, but these kinds of articles go against his preaching and the reason why his fish are healthy and looking good is bc he feeds a variety of foods. The article clearly specified that is why in the wild most preditory fish get away with B1 imbalances...


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## wisco_pygo

i was serious about considering not feeding shrimp anymore, after reading those articles.

i was laughing at, to whom you directed your question.


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## BRUNER247

How does this go against what I say? It say freezing food takes away nutritional value just like I say. It also says that if fed exclusively it can be a problem. The one thing I preach most is variety variety variety. It also said that when fed a diet of various foods it isn't a problem. I feed way more good foods than I do bad foods. Which its probably my twisted logic here but. If its not a problem with a varied diet then I'm getting extra nutrients n proteins from feeding live once a week. And I also read that our natural fish like bluegill, sunfish ect don't have it at all. So they're completely safe. & if you've read much of my posts you'll see that my fish mainly eat rbp more than any other live fish. Minnows, sunfish, tilapia, are my other live I turn to if I don't have rbp. I'm also breeding dovii for feeders also now. So even if it is minnows turn on any given week I'm not worried as my fish get a wide variety of food. I've said it least a 100 times here variety is the key! N hell you can pick on me if you want.

What's so funny Wisco? I wanna laugh too!


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## FEEFA

So feeding feeders is no worse than feeding shrimp???
My main concern with feeders would be disease and parisites over the thiaminase, as bruner said variety is key and I agree. I would have no problem feeding cons or something else I've bred but no way would I risk a rosie or goldie from the lfs, IMO you're gambling with your fishes health that way.

The problem is when people say feeders automatically we think goldfish and rosies, but feeders can be cons or even dovii"s lol


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## BRUNER247

N one last thing I forgot to comment on. & that's what it said about it affecting eggs n fry to where the die at early age.I think this is the very problem that some have had on here thoughout the years with fry dying at or before 2 weeks old. I've read countless threads here with members fry dying early. If this is true then a varied must be the key because my fry are strong.I don't have a problem with fry at all.(well other than my own fault) so I must be doing something right.I've got just as good a growth rate from my golds as anyone, colors are intense. Rbp grow like no others. N Wisco if you question my ability(which you must with the bs in my thread wanting to see pics or videos) feel free to send me email or PM n ill prove my results. I've been sitting here laughn at you n ksls for a day now.you ruin my thread sayn I don't see no proof n this n that. But yet I've offered to show anyone my undeniable proof n yet neither of you stepped up. One minute you wanna see em next ya don't. I want this fish, now I'm selling it to get this one. Probably didn't even wanna see em in the first place you were just following ksls around.


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## Soul Assassin

BRUNER247 said:


> How does this go against what I say? It say freezing food takes away nutritional value just like I say. It also says that if fed exclusively it can be a problem. The one thing I preach most is variety variety variety. It also said that when fed a diet of various foods it isn't a problem. I feed way more good foods than I do bad foods. Which its probably my twisted logic here but. If its not a problem with a varied diet then I'm getting extra nutrients n proteins from feeding live once a week. And I also read that our natural fish like bluegill, sunfish ect don't have it at all. So they're completely safe. & if you've read much of my posts you'll see that my fish mainly eat rbp more than any other live fish. Minnows, sunfish, tilapia, are my other live I turn to if I don't have rbp. I'm also breeding dovii for feeders also now. So even if it is minnows turn on any given week I'm not worried as my fish get a wide variety of food. I've said it least a 100 times here variety is the key! N hell you can pick on me if you want.
> 
> What's so funny Wisco? I wanna laugh too!


You have pinpointed the area in which I disagree with you. In a glass cage, when you have total control of all things going in and out, why feed "bad foods". Why not only feed "good foods". That is waht I dont get about you. Another thing is that even though you feed mainly RBPs, sunfish, bluegill etc. (good foods), you also dont have any problems feeding goldfish and minnows, rosies etc. (bad foods). Further, you say variety is key, which I suppose you also include "bad foods" since you use them in your routine.

As far as feeders go, I never said mollies, swordtails, convicts are bad to feed and even recommend them when people ask what they should feed live. The only problem is disease and pathogens they may contain. If you can get passed that part feed them as much as u like.


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## Soul Assassin

****** said:


> So feeding feeders is no worse than feeding shrimp???
> My main concern with feeders would be disease and parisites over the thiaminase, as bruner said variety is key and I agree. I would have no problem feeding cons or something else I've bred but no way would I risk a rosie or goldie from the lfs, IMO you're gambling with your fishes health that way.
> 
> The problem is when people say feeders automatically we think goldfish and rosies, but feeders can be cons or even dovii"s lol


This article claimed that shrimp have "very high" levels of thiam. in them, and they are also frozen which destroys B1 over time (months) so IMO it probably could be when you put those two together. I'm not a biologist though.


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## BRUNER247

Did it not say that when fed a variety of food the thiaminase isn't a problem? Only when these fish that contain this are fed exclusively is there a problem. Speaking of mollies, that's what my fish ate this week for live(I have a steady supply of these also. Anyhow my point is that if a varied diet cancels out the thiaminase(which is what the link said)then its not a concern for me.I feed many things, most the time I feed two things at one feeding. So being that it don't effect my fish(again variety cancelled it out)then my fish are actually benefiting from live that I feed(regardless of what it might be that week)because of the added nutrition that can't be had anywhere else but from live, like blood, guts, bones,brains, the whole live fish. I'm fairly sure it said you can also reverse the thiaminase by gut loading feeders before feeding them.


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## Guest

ksls said:


> N one last thing I forgot to comment on. & that's what it said about it affecting eggs n fry to where the die at early age.I think this is the very problem that some have had on here thoughout the years with fry dying at or before 2 weeks old. I've read countless threads here with members fry dying early. If this is true then a varied must be the key because my fry are strong.I don't have a problem with fry at all.(well other than my own fault) so I must be doing something right.I've got just as good a growth rate from my golds as anyone, colors are intense. Rbp grow like no others. N Wisco if you question my ability(which you must with the bs in my thread wanting to see pics or videos) feel free to send me email or PM n ill prove my results. *I've been sitting here laughn at you n ksls for a day now.you ruin my thread sayn I don't see no proof n this n that. But yet I've offered to show anyone my undeniable proof n yet neither of you stepped up. One minute you wanna see em next ya don't. I want this fish, now I'm selling it to get this one. Probably didn't even wanna see em in the first place you were just following ksls around.*


Have you been drinking??

First of all, I have not posted anything in this particular thread until now. Secondly, I in know way RUINED your thread or stated that you are full of it. If you look above I pasted my responses. I was being courteous and helpful. *I didnt step up???* I stated to you twice that I was more than willing to start a thread on your behalf with your pictures that you said you were willing to share with everyone!!! You are the one who didnt STEP UP or follow through with my offer.

Before you go calling me out, how about you go back to your own thread and actually read it instead of just picking out things here and there and turning them into what you want to hear.


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## FEEFA

As long as feeders are free of disease then I say go to town


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## BRUNER247

1st off I never said you said anything in this thread 
2nd how can you say you didn't mess up my thread. With all your whining bout not seeing my proof 
3rd I don't drink 
4th why would I have you start a thread for me when I had one that that was just waiting for pics or videos added(till you n pygo started talkn sh*t) 
5th I pm'd you right after you posted that crap for your email address, with no reply! No surprise! You say you wanted to see, n I was more than happy to share. Your the one that didn't reply back. 
6- here you are ruining someone elses thread with this BS! & this coming from a mod. 
So yeah when two members run their mouths about not seeing proof, then I PM you and publicly stated several time & several places that I'm more than willing to show proof or even share what I have with anyone. Complain you haven't seen nothing. I offer to show, then you didn't step up.like I said one minute you wanna see em next you don't. I take that as just plain picking me out n harassing me. My offer still stands. If ANYONE wants to see proof or even just see then feel free to email or PM me ANYTIME!


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## Guest

BRUNER247 said:


> 1st off I never said you said anything in this thread
> 2nd *how can you say you didn't mess up my thread. With all your whining bout not seeing my proof*
> 3rd I don't drink
> 4th *why would I have you start a thread for me when I had one that that was just waiting for pics or videos added(till you n pygo started talkn sh*t)*
> 5th *I pm'd you right after you posted that crap for your email address, with no reply! No surprise! You say you wanted to see, n I was more than happy to share. Your the one that didn't reply back.
> 6- here you are ruining someone elses thread with this BS! & this coming from a mod. *
> So yeah when two members run their mouths about not seeing proof, then I PM you and publicly stated several time & several places that I'm more than willing to show proof or even share what I have with anyone. Complain you haven't seen nothing. I offer to show, then you didn't step up.like I said one minute you wanna see em next you don't. I take that as just plain picking me out n harassing me. My offer still stands. If ANYONE wants to see proof or even just see then feel free to email or PM me ANYTIME!


I'm not sure how you are reading my responses but I did post all of them up there and I didnt whine or complain that you havent shown any proof once. I was explaining to you that pictures were required to receive a breeding award.

I have no idea who you PM'd but it wasnt me. I havent received any messages from you.

You are obviously just an argumentative person who is always looking for conflict. I was genuinely trying to assist you. I now know to not go out of my way again.

Good day.


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## FEEFA

Yo Bruner! Why not just start a thread of your breeding then?
I'm sure someone could post your pics n vids for you. I am now very interested in seeing your setups


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## BRUNER247

Well I apologize ksls I'm not here to argue. Don't start no sh*t there won't be no sh*t. Lol cluster I had a thread I was going to have someone post my videos in from start to finish. I was waiting until RnR said my submitted videos were what was needed.email me cluster I'll share some videos n pics with ya. Hell ksls I might of screwed up sending it somehow idk.wouldn't be the first time I screwed up.I apologize if I took what you said as dogging me. That's how I took it after you never replied back. I was letting all this pass until Wisco laughn in this thread.


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## BRUNER247

Your right ksls it didn't send. There's no record of it in my messenger. I must of forgot to give a title or subject. N sent it & assumed it sent when it didn't.


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## wisco_pygo

ill tell you whats funny bruner. YOU ARE. they way you communicate with others deserves nothing but laughter. if someone disagrees with you, its "ARR N ARR, f*ck YALL", what intelligent recourse- swearing at others. "don't start no sh*t won't be no sh*t." seriously? you're impervious to constraint of your foul mouth.

i watched you go back and forth with joe about feeders, he kept purveying the same information to you, over and over and over and over. it was like he was talking to a brick wall. you couldn't pick up on the fact he was just giving information, and not telling you how to feed your fish, but you insisted on being pugnacious, like normal. before you accuse others of communication breaking down, you ought to take a good look in the mirror.

i never said you didn't breed the fish, i just said get it submitted by a mod before you brag to the world about it. once you didn't succeed with rnr, how many others mods are there? plenty- find one and get your info out, then take credit for it. how simple and easy would that have been? once again though, you've taken others' words out of context and bent them into others making fun of you or calling you a liar. not true, and ultimately strawman arguments.

try posting within a new theme on this board: form complete sentences, spell words correctly, refrane from cursing at other members esp mods when you disagree with them, structure paragraphs instead of one big blob of words, use the word "and" instead of saying 'n', and maybe just maybe some people will think they're actually speaking with an adult

in other news, i just saw an inexperienced piranha keeper on youtube, who feeds his p's mice, spawn a fry. so you haven't exactly invented a time machine, or discovered the the fountain of youth. save yourself a pat on the back, bc i'd take the advice of joe, ba20, ******, soul assassin, and/or ksls over yours anyday of the week.


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