# Adendectomied snakes



## CrocKeeper

I wish to see feelings on this subject from all you gauys and gals.

I am currently working very hard along with several other people and organizations to have this practice banned outright specifically and made a punishable offense by law in several municipalities currently, as well as a few counties, and a few States, with plans to tackle this issue Federally.

If you are unfamiliar with this subject we can start a new thread just disscussing it; what I am looking for here are thoughts and opinions pro and con from those of you with some basic knowledge in this area.


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## Atlanta Braves Baby!

I would love to comment, but I am not fimilar with what you are refering to.


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## sweet lu

are they trying to ban venmous snakes?

please start the other thread so i know what this is about, i would love to know


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## acestro

Never seen that word...... appendectomy? 
Maybe an adenoidectomy? I'm lost.

My guess is venom gland removal (after all, what else would you remove from venomoids! )







. I think it's mutilation!







disgusting in fact (and I don't keep or plan to keep venomoids).


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## Polypterus

Removing the fangs, cutting the ducts or removing venom glands in an animal
is plain and simple cruel and misguided treatment, and a total affront to the dignity
of the animal.

this is not unlike removing the teeth and
claws from a tiger just so you feel safe to keep something you should not have 
in the first place, this pratice is barbaric and a total affront to the nature and welfare of these snakes.

These Reptiles already suffer enough through lax care and
misunderstood requirments adding this next level of abuse really just is
enough to make me scream.

I appalaud you Crock for taking up this issue and trying to change it's
acceptance level, and even better outlaw it's practice.

Please contact me also as I would like to make any resources
I have available to you on this.


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## Polypterus

acestro said:


> Never seen that word...... appendectomy?
> Maybe an adenoidectomy? I'm lost.
> 
> My guess is venom gland removal (after all, what else would you remove from venomoids! )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I think it's mutilation!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> disgusting in fact (and I don't keep or plan to keep venomoids).


Usual process is adenopathy (Total reemoval of the gland)
cutting out a section of the venom duct, or burning it shut,

In some cases the "Practicioner" will also remove the fangs themselves,

This procedure is not done by any self repecting Vet,
it's most always done in a dirty back room by some wannabe
"Animal care specialist"<--------(Exotic "pet" dealer with $$$$$ on the mind)


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## sweet lu

i am agiasnt it now that i have learned it

just plain toture


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## ANDY375HH

its cruel to do to a venomous snake thier venom actually helps them with the digestive process. I agree crockeeper it should be banned. If people want to keep a venomous snake but don't want them to be venomous then they can keep pythons boas and coulibrid snakes.

Good luck gettin this practice banned.


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## BoomerSub

I agree, it should be discouraged/banned. If you want something harmless get a corn, don't get something and try to make it into something it's not.

-PK


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## CrocKeeper

I am glad to see some informed response and am thankfull to poly and ace to getting to that before I could....

Many "dealers" have been usisng the practice to produce snakes that they can sell for many times quadruple the cost of the snake without the procedure..unfortunately for the snake involved most often it is a backyard hack that is performing the procedure, and they lose 4 in 5 specimens they perform this on.....

Some arguments for the procedure have been often, the most common I see and hear are that they were wanting the "training" time to learn how to deal with the species that they are afraid to own while intact. That argument is null, as it does not train anyone how to work with a species if they are already not leary of the species because they know the mutilated specimen they have can not envenomate them....not too mention the inapropriate assumption that the snake is indeed "harmless" as again most of the "procedures" are performed by persons who have zero training education or legal authority by most state statutes to perform such abhorations.

Poly, be looking for some PM's, and the can of worms you have opened by lending a hand!


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## sweet lu

is there like a form or something we could put our name on to get this ban, i 
would
like to help out cause i plan on getting a venoumouse snake once 
i have everything and a license and also the info and when i am older

i would hate to own a venmouse snake that is in pain


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## Polypterus

"Poly, be looking for some PM's, and the can of worms you have opened by lending a hand! "

I'll do what I can, I was not aware of an effort by informed people to eradicate this
pratice. I've watched and perticipated in some debates but never saw anything
happen out of it. a real movement toward effective change and awareness of this
issue is very positive move both for the welfare of Venomous snakes and
the Reptile hobby as a whole.


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## CrocKeeper

Currently I have helped succesfully prosecute two individuals for "practicing veterinary medicine without a license" in two different States. The fact is most States have laws in place providing penalties for these procedures as they are an unnessecary procedure that is painfull and destructive and of no value to the life of the animal.

I will be sending you some info Poly as well as some things you can do...
As far as signatures go LU, if you really want to help, write letters, good old fashion snail mail, to your representatives, municipally, county wide, State, and Federally....that is the absolute best way to tackle the subject..

write something to this effect...
We as concerned members of the herpetological community find the surgical alteration of venomous snakes to be a practice that can be cruel and inhumane and potentially life threatening to the handler or bystanders. We pray you to not allow or condone the sales of these animals through or in your state or on any {Website, Magazine or Reptile Shows, Private Party Transactions} within your State's jurisdiction without proper proof of the surgery being performed by a Licensed Qualified Veterinary Surgeon registered with the The American Veterinary Medical Association. 
We ask that any and all of these Altered animal be accompanied by a Notarized sworn affidavit from the Veterinary Surgeon that conducted the operation as well as copies of all medical records. We ask that the Veterinary Surgeon certifies that animal to be harmless and incapable of ever again delivering a venomous bite.

We ask that in order to sell any of these altered animals on or within your State on any {Website, Magazine, Reptile Shows or Private Party Transaction} that the vendor/seller provide proof upon request for verification of the Veterinary Surgeon who performed the alteration as so the buyer may contact the Veterinary office for confirmation. This information should be provided to any employee of your State and to the {Website, Magazine or Reptile Shows, Private Parties} for verification.

We put this to you as it is known that these surgical procedures are performed by unlicensed person and without proper use of narcotics for the relief of pain and suffering along with post surgical infections that this causes great pain and suffering to the animals.

This pain and suffering is animal cruelty and is an unneeded procedure and not warranted for the animals health or well being. This Surgery is performed to render a venomous snake harmless and with cases in point to show that in time the animal if the surgery was not performed completely can again be capable of producing venom and delivering a fatal bite. This can and does pose a risk to the handler and or any bystanders and is a matter of public health and safety.

With many State as well as Federal laws pertaining to Surgical standards and Pain and suffering to animals we ask you to not allow any animal without the above mentions documentation and verification of legal surgery performed to be sold through your state or any {Website, Magazine or Reptile Shows Private Party Transactions} within your jurisdiction.








And then add your name


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## Kory

and lu make sure you use spell check


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## MWehr76364

I think this is just a choice that some people make. The same thing can be argued for people that keep there animals or fish in enclosures that are to small. Should people be banned from keeping animals unless they have had somebody come out and look at there setup then given the ok to buy the particular animal they are wanting. You are also not stating that there are several reputable breeders that sell venemoids that have the surgery done by well respected vets and they keep there fangs they just remove the venom glad and then they do not sell the snakes unless they are eating and are 100% healthy. True this is not always the case as you are going to have a few people that try and do things themselves to save money but that is w/ anything and everything just about you are always going to have somebody cutting corners to save money and that hurts the people that do things the correct way and are professional about it. I dont have any problems with venom duct removal due to laws in my county you can't have a venemous snake whether it is a hot or venemoid so it doesn't affect me. I have kept both in the past though before the laws went into affect and I just think its the keepers choice and responsibility to buy from someone who has a proven track record of good husbandry.


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## sweet lu

i sent a letter to the deparment of nateral resouces


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## CrocKeeper

> You are also not stating that there are several reputable breeders that sell venemoids that have the surgery done by well respected vets and they keep there fangs they just remove the venom glad and then they do not sell the snakes unless they are eating and are 100% healthy.


Please give me names of the Vets doing these surgeries. I will gladly post them after verifying that they were indeed done by a licensed Veterinarian.
There are plenty of people selling "venomoids" that is the problem. Yes there are some thatare even reputable individuals that sell them, and yes they sell many that have made it through the procedure, and are seemingly healthy. That does not change the fact that 4 in 5 snakes perish through this procedure on average.
It also odes not change the fact that the VAST majority of procedures are NOT done by Licensed Veterinarians. I love the part above about keeping their fangs, of course they do, an adendectomy is the surgical removal of gland and duct, not the removal of the maxillary bone or attached dentition.

Should an inspection be done to keep animals to verify the cage requirements for the species are being met adequately for the species? Absolutely! In a perfect world that would be done, but alas currently in the US that would be a multi problematic task, as you would have to have a large organization of well trained staff, and the monetary resources to fund it, as well as the ability to enforce penalties ....currently that could not happen on a federal level. In many States it happens for some species, but in most it does not happen at all due to the inability to finance the staff, and have the trained informed man-power within the regulating agencies.

I like the fact that you are trying to air the other side in a professional manner. I respect the fact that you have maintained a collection in the past. I also respect the fact that you are an individual that views other individuals as having choices. I see this issue as more than a simple choice. It is an elective surgery that may indeed harm the specimen it is done to. Bottom line is most venoms are important agents in digestion for many species, and long-term effects of the permanent lack of them needs to be done before it can bve said to be a harmless non damaging procedure to the snake, when done by a competant professional Veterinarian, who has specialized herpetological education and experience.


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## You

this is just wrong and brutal for the animal keep up the work crock im behind you all the way


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## CrocKeeper

Thought I would bump this as I was waiting to see MWehr76364 post some licesned veterinarians that are currently performing this procedure as I would really like to make contact with them.


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## Alexraptor

brutal, just plain wrong









if one wants to have a venomous snake one should 1st get one that can bite but is not venomous and when you can hanlde it then you should move on the venomous snakes but not venomous enough to kill one


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## nitrofish

I know im going to get heck for this but my dad has a gaboon viper with the venom glands removed, but fangs intact. it was taught to eat dead animals (otherwize it wouldn't be able to kill its prey). and at his work he has a pair of de-venomed cobra's.


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## CrocKeeper

Many people have them Nitro. They appeal to people because they are species they might normally not consider keeping. I am not wanting to just give people crap on this issue, I am hoping to educate people as to what it takes to get that one "venomoid" gaboon viper, 4 others that didn't survive the procedure. I also want people to understand that the venom is an integral part of the animals digestive system, yes it can eat the dead prey, but it now takes much more energy and effoert to consume it, and there may be long term effects from the lack of those digestive proteins, proteases, poly-peptides, etc.. these effects may include shortened life spans of the snake, bottom line, we do not know and it should be studied.
It also bothers me, becuase these "venomoid" snakes make people lacsadasical around them, and as I have mentioned in previous posts these procedures are RARELY done by a Licensed Veterinarian. They are done by individuals trying to make a quick buck, and there are questions about the quality of the procedure, especially within the Elapidae (cobras and relatives). I have recieved two "venomoid" snakes from bite victims of the snakes who were envenomated by the snakes. Yes envenomated. The procedure was not done correctly and the animal was able to regrow duct and gland, due to the faulty procedure. 
This is a potentially far reaching problem because most people are not aware of the dangers and the individuals making the money really do not care.


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## Atlanta Braves Baby!

Wow that is a pretty shitty practice.


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