# Am I missing something here?



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I don't get:


> Muslims Express Fury Over Pope's Remarks
> Friday, September 15, 2006 11:26 AM EDT
> The Associated Press
> By SUZAN FRASER
> ...


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

gotta love religion...the only thing more destructive than an atomic bomb...


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

Pot meet Kettle.

thats what comes to my mind.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> Pot meet Kettle.
> 
> thats what comes to my mind.












bunch of fanatic freaks...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

What I read from the article is CENSORSHIP. Both religions seem to be doing it. How can anyone have peaceful dialogue when both minds are CLOSED and the masses (ISLAM) are showing how they handle dialogue. IF I recall correctly, Iran put on a cartoon display of Jews. I don't see mass hysteria over that as opposed to the masses that practice ISLAM. Not digging at any particular religion, I'd be considered an infidel anyway. But I just don't see what is so awful about quoting a historical document..........yet you see that the SWORD is the way being practiced and reported by captives who have been forced to convert or die.


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

i am outraged he said islam only brings evil....i think i will go blow some people up in protest


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## mr_rob_boto (Aug 31, 2003)

I hope he doesn't appologize.
people can be so stupid


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> i am outraged he said islam only brings evil....i think i will go blow some people up in protest


The Pope didn't say that, he quoted from a published historical document.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

I'm feeling politically incorrect today, so don't take me seriously.


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

Fargo said:


> I'm feeling politically incorrect today, so don't take me seriously.


lol sad but true


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## User (May 31, 2004)

I find the Popes comments hilarious. Even though there maybe alittle hypocrisy with his statements, he isn't lying. The Pope didn't even "explicitly agree with the statement nor repudiate it" but I do. And i'm non-religious.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

From the latest reports, can't argue with Fargo's photo.


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## sicklid-holic (Mar 25, 2005)

Screw the muslim world and there Islamic mentallity, Who the F#&^* cares.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

hastatus said:


> From the latest reports, can't argue with Fargo's photo.


If you ask me. The action/reaction taken speaks louder than any words being said.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

The initial reaction:



















Oh, what the hell, for old times sake.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

Here are some moderates burning a papal effigy:


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## Omnius (Mar 20, 2006)

Gotta love the fair and balanced view the followers of Islam have....










Well DONE!


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2006)

You really hate Muslims, dont you?


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## Omnius (Mar 20, 2006)

Not so much as hate... if they would behave civil like I would not care as much and I know that not a muslims are like this but to me Islam is one of the main reasons the world is having so much trouble right now. As soon as they shape up so to speak I will harass the next major reliogon that is causing problems. But be honest I don't see the followers of other religons spouting so much issues over such trivial things as cartoons and remarks from the people. true the pope is important but still... if they can critisize us they should be ready for a rebuttal.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

hastatus said:


> You really hate Muslims, dont you?


 why because he pointed out a basic truth of the middle east?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> DannyBoy17 Posted Today, 08:25 PM
> You really hate Muslims, dont you?


Not sure how "you really hate muslims" enters into this discussion, since the discussion is about what the Pope quoted from an ancient document w/o offering an opinion with he agreed/and or disagreed. Yet Violence is what proves the point of the document that Pope quoted from. If you look at it from the abstract, he basically uttered the truth w/o a sword.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > DannyBoy17 Posted Today, 08:25 PM
> > You really hate Muslims, dont you?
> 
> 
> Not sure how "you really hate muslims" enters into this discussion, since the discussion is about what the Pope quoted from an ancient document w/o offering an opinion with he agreed/and or disagreed. Yet Violence is what proves the point of the document that Pope quoted from. If you look at it from the abstract, he basically uttered the truth w/o a sword.


yeah sad but true.

i dont like the pope and i dont like the radical muslims (or ignorant people as a whole) but atleast the popes followers are not burning down embassies or violently protesting every time some muslim take a crack at their religion. why cant they just have faith in their god and know in themselv that all the infidels will burn in eternal hellfire.

im so sic of the whole situation and i cannot honestly say i see any other outcome than another huge war..


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> im so sic of the whole situation and i cannot honestly say i see any other outcome than another huge war..


 Sad, but true. The whole situation is sickening.










> If you look at it from the abstract, *he basically uttered the truth w/o a sword*.


Wouldn't the whole thing be so much better if both sides used this approach?
Too bad it isn't happening. 
But, I'm going to try to enjoy my life anyway.


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

Bu ne demek? What These?
DID MOSLEM DO EBOVE?
POPE MUST APOLOGİZE...

------------

DID MOSLEM DO HOLY ALLİANCE IN TIME? 
YOU KİLLID THOUSANDS OF MUSLEM
YOU SCATTERED THE BLOOD!
POPE CHRİSTİAN CONVINCED!
THE MONEY PROMİSED
ALL LİE GOT OUT!

--------------------
THE CRİSTİAN RUSSİA, KILLED THE ARMENİANS, bUT, THE COLLAPSED ON THE TURK!
--
LOOK AROUND CORRECT ANY MORE, DON'T BELİEVE IN THE LIE
------

PAPA BİR TERBİYESİLİZ YAPTI VE BUNUN SONUCU OLARAK ÖZÜR DİLEMELİ! PAPA İLK ÖNCE MÜSLÜMANLARA LAF ATACAĞINA KAN İLE DOLU KENDİ TARİHİNE BAKSIN, OKUYUN! 
zENGİNLİK VADEDİP HAÇLI SEFERLERİNE ÇIKMADINIZMI? YOLLARDA TELEF OLMADINIZMI? GİTTİĞİNİZ YERLERDE MÜSLÜMANLARI KATLETMEDİNİZ Mİ? TERÖR ÖRGÜTLERİNE ŞİMDİLERDE BİLE DESTEK VERMİYORMUSUNUZ? TÜRK BROKRATLARI KATLEDEN ERMENİ TERÖR ÖRGÜTÜ "ASALAYI" FRANSALARDA İNGİLTERELERDE AVRUPANIN BİRÇOK YERİNDE BESLEYİP HİMAYE ETMEDİNİZ Mİ? ab PARLAMENTOSUNA TERÖR LİSTESİNE ALDIĞINIZ "PKK" TERÖR ÖRGÜTÜ TEMSİLCİLERİNİ SOKMADINIZ MI?

SİZLER NE KADAR AT GÖZLÜĞÜ TAKMIŞSNIZ, ETRAFINIZA BAKIN? İSRAİL TANKI TOPU, TÜFEĞİ İLE VURURKEN, FİLİST,İNLİSİNİN ELİNDE SADECE TAŞ VAR TAŞ!

HZ. DAVUD (DEIVID) UN TUNÇTAN DEV GOLYAD'A TAŞ ATMASININ 21. YY DAKİ MİZANSELİMİDİR BU? SİZLER, HRİSTİYANLAR HERR ZAMAN HAKLISNIZ, EFENDİSİNİZ, MEDENİSİNİZ! ÇÜNKÜ PARA SİZLERDE! AMA ALLAH BİLİYOR KİMİN SUÇLU, KİMİN SUÇSUZ OLDUĞUNU! ELİNİZİ VİCDANINIZA KOYUN BİRDE ÖYLE KONUŞUN, BIRAKIN MİLLİYETLERİNİZİ, HRİSTİYAN OLARAK KONUŞUN, İNSANLARI SEVEN BİRİSİ OLARAK KONUŞUN! DEVLET BÜYÜKLERİNİZİN SÖYLEDİĞİ ABD'NİN SÖYLEDİĞİ YALANLARA İNANIYORMUSUNUZ!

DAHA 3-5 SENE EVVEL ABD NÜKLER BOMBA VAR DEDİ GİRDİ IRAK'A AMA SONRA İTİRAF ETMEDİMİ? IRAKTA ATOM BOMBASI ÇIKTIMI?

BU KADAR SAF OLMAYIN LÜTFEN!

VE SON SÖZ OLARAK TERBİYESİZLİĞİ YAPAN PAPA'DA OLSA VATANDAŞ BENEDİK TE OLSA ÖZÜR DİLEMELİ, DİLEMİYORSA TÜRKİYE'YEDE GELMESİN, SİKT,İTSİN GİTSİN.

POPE MUST APOLOGİZE...


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

you killed the soldier, because, you supported terrorizm. 
Because, you are very pıous and love the people(!)


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## keremcumali (Feb 11, 2005)

View attachment 119905

View attachment 119903


POPE MUST APOLOGİZE...


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

keremcumali said:


> View attachment 119905
> 
> View attachment 119903
> 
> ...


AĞCA could not manage! and pope does not apologize, will get out somebody who manage!!!!!!!


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

kanok said:


> Bu ne demek? What These?
> DID MOSLEM DO EBOVE?
> POPE MUST APOLOGİZE...
> 
> ...


Everybody killed thousands of everybody. That's an abbreviated summary of World history. How about a sound argument in plain English that everyone can understand?


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

yeah if youre to blame evry contry(polirical groups) that has killed children and sivilians you must blame them all.

but if you want to blame the contrys(political groups) that on purpose kill children and sivilians then the list shortens..


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

explanatıon of my above words. 
I dıdn't curse, don't be curıous about. english, very lıttle.
----
The summary;

you are beıng unfair to the moslem.
pope ıs coming ın the head of these, Because, pope does not know historical. How many god? pope does not know ıt. pope ıs speakıng empty. Terror ıs creatıng. pope ısn't unıteıng the people. ıs seperateıng to the class.
pope ıs prepareıng the own death!

old pope was better, ı used to love. 
I am hateıng "benedick" I don't want come to the Türkiye


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> kanok Posted Today, 07:18 AM
> explanatıon of my above words.
> I dıdn't curse, don't be curıous about. english, very lıttle.
> ----
> ...


And that my friend IS THE PROBLEM, there is too much hate. As I was writing this the news stated that groups of Muslim's are attemping to burn down Christian churches. Why? And how does this disprove the historical quote? Am I going to be hated now because I chose to start this thread in a non-hate way? Perhaps all of you are not understanding why I started this thread. It was not to spread hate, but to show EVERYONE how foolish, destructive hate is and how it is spread.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

kanok said:


> explanatıon of my above words.
> I dıdn't curse, don't be curıous about. english, very lıttle.
> ----
> The summary;
> ...


First of all: DId you read the entire speech in context? Here's the link if you have not.: http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1873277,00.htmlhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1873277,00.html

Second, were you outraged by Iran's publication of the Holocaust cartoons? Did you see Jews rioting and burning effigies and blaming the world for their misfortunes?



> Terror ıs creatıng. pope ısn't unıteıng the people. ıs seperateıng to the class.
> pope ıs prepareıng the own death!


It's not the pope's job to keep militant Islam under control. Every religion teaches personal responsibility, and to blame anyone else for violence under the guise of religion is not only absurd but morally reprehensible. As far as pope "preparing the own death," you might be familiar with this:

Also: http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/15/turk...pe-in-istanbul/

Turkish bestseller: "Who will kill the Pope in Istanbul?" Update: Merkel defends Benedictposted at 12:14 pm on September 15, 2006 by Allahpundit

Benedict XVI is set to visit Turkey in November, for those looking to descry omens, here's one that's not terribly encouraging: A potboiler novel currently on bestseller lists in Turkey titled Papa'ya suikast ("Attack on the Pope") predicts that Benedict will be assassinated.
Written by novelist Yücel Kaya, the book is subtitled, "Who will kill Benedict XVI in Istanbul?"
In a little more than 300 pages, Kaya manages to weave the Turkish Secret Service, the infamous Masonic lodge P2, and (of course) Opus Dei into his plot line. Inevitably, Mehmet Ali Agca, the Turk who shot Pope John Paul II in 1981, also makes an appearance.
All this might seem comical were it not for the fact that in the last seven months, three Catholic priests have been attacked in Turkey, beginning with the murder of Italian missionary Fr. Andrea Santoro on February 5.

How is this a bestseller in a moderate country?

Here is more Muslim outrage over a speech most did not even read:


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## Omnius (Mar 20, 2006)

kanok said:


> The summary;
> you are beıng unfair to the moslem.


Well I don't see any Christans, Jews, and other religious followers torching churches burning buildings, and violently protesting. These protests really show the Muslim intolerance for other ways of thinking, for instance did you see Jews or Christians burning mosques and Iranian flags when they published the holocaust cartoons? I think not.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I'm not sure what's going on with Turkey. That place sure seems like a wild card in all of this....


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Yes and turkey is suppose to be the only "muslim" democracy. Bullshit, and I've been saying it for years, democracy and islam can't never work together.


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

english a little. I can't answer the everybody.
Let me tell that firstly; turkey ısn't the iran!

The church ıs the house of the GOD, likethe same Mosque!
these places ısn't moslem of the collar. The islam does not love these behaviors!
human-being forbids kıllıng!

my hatred, ısn't the to the CHRİSTIANS, to my belief is bad words tell people.
merkel ıs speaking empty, her ıs defender wrong! needless!
Pope apoligaıze ın the result, his understood wrong. 
Later from the apology, let come to Türkiye. let me entertaın ın the best shape! 
we gıve ımportance to the guest, but, andguest become like guest! and his become respectful.
the islam tells this.

be pleased for apoligaıze


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## Omnius (Mar 20, 2006)

The only people needing to appologize are the Muslims.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> kanok Posted Today, 12:17 PM
> english a little. I can't answer the everybody.
> Let me tell that firstly; turkey ısn't the iran!
> 
> ...


Evidently we are having translator problems, from English to Turkish and vice versa. But asking the Pope to apologize for reading a quote from a historical document which was done in the academic setting. The Pope was taken out of context from that academic setting. This would be like me taking a portion of Myers, The Piranha Book who reported Sousa, in his Descriptise Treatise on Brazil in 1587, wrote that _Indians do not trust themselves to the water where this fish is, because they attack them much and bite cruelly._ People on PFURY would not burn down my house because I stated something historical in a writing. I hope you translate what I wrote properly into your own language and understand that communicating with each other clearly is important.


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## Omnius (Mar 20, 2006)

hastatus said:


> This would be like me taking a portion of Myers, The Piranha Book who reported Sousa, in his Descriptise Treatise on Brazil in 1587, wrote that _Indians do not trust themselves to the water where this fish is, because they attack them much and bite cruelly._ People on PFURY would not burn down my house because I stated something historical in a writing. I hope you translate what I wrote properly into your own language and understand that communicating with each other clearly is important.


Good point.


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

Omnius said:


> The only people needing to appologize are the Muslims.


ı didn't understand! moslem will apologize! you are telling this.
Like your, these ıs fıery! the dıscord seed ıs scatterıng!
aggressor ıs doing these people! we are becoming mature agressor later!
and you course to my belief, I curse on me yours!

make fun of, you are running away too much!

*WE ONLY WANT THE RESPECT! DO WE WANT A LOT?*


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> kanok Posted Today, 02:21 PM
> QUOTE(Omnius @ Sep 16 2006, 03:19 PM)
> 
> *The only people needing to appologize are the Muslims.*
> ...


Kanok, respect works both ways. Omnius is only stating that Muslims are burning buildings (Churches). I do not see anyone in the news that is burning Mosques. Both acts are wrong.

I see no reason for the Pope to apologise anymore than I would apologise for quoting an historical document from Sousa. It does not mean I believe the document. Only reporting what it said. Do you understand?


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## User (May 31, 2004)

The pope has already expressed his statement with "sincerely regrets" but didn't apologize and will not. You do not apologize on a discussion of academic lecture in a free society. Anyone that is critical of adademic discussion is headstrong with their dislike of a free society. Benedict's speech was an olive branch, a message that peace is possible without hate. And no surprize, millions took it the wrong way.


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > kanok Posted Today, 02:21 PM
> > QUOTE(Omnius @ Sep 16 2006, 03:19 PM)
> >
> > *The only people needing to appologize are the Muslims.*
> ...


I AM beıng added, you are right. 
anyway, ı have written. churc, mosque can't become moslem of the colar!
real moslem does not do this! The islam curses these person!
you didn't hear the mosque collar, I didn't hear on me! but, I heared inquisition, you know *inquisition!*

the flute

ıf my christian burns mosque saying, I Thing, ıt isn't christian. 
real moslem or cristian does not do this! 
-----

Yours Faithfully, Kanok


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

You know whats wrong with Islam? There is no set authority figure in their religion. For catholics, they have the pope. For Christians, they have people like billy graham and others who represent their relgion. For islam, they have NO authority figure which is partly b/c islam is so subjective and contridicting. One passage may talk about peace then the other about jihad that dont exactly make it clear how it should be intrepreted. Thats why there are extremeists that make it into their own interpretation and those that dont. If the pope says something, he must apoligize. If an islamic leader says something, hes given a slap on the hand by the world because he is an "extremist". They dont get any criticism(or very little). An example is Irans leader.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

More in the latest news, highlited portions are mine own to emphasize the point I was making here. Evidently, reasonable people see it the same way:



> Pope Stops Short of Apology to Muslims
> Saturday, September 16, 2006 3:31 PM EDT
> The Associated Press
> By FRANCES D'EMILIO
> ...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> kanok Today, 03:13 PM Post #43|
> 
> I AM beıng added, you are right.
> anyway, ı have written. churc, mosque can't become moslem of the colar!
> ...


Kanok, I understand the term "inquisition". Inquisition was a horrible historical reality. We both agree that it was wrong. However, FREE SPEECH is something we in the Western world take for granted. Not all nations enjoy FREE SPEECH. In the west, we talk freely without fear from religious punishment from the Bible, Koran or Torah. We (I) believe judgement of the soul is for God to decide, not man. Punishment on earth is for Man to decide based on the priniciples of law; fairness, truth and justice. Historically, any religious group that comes to power (be it Christian or Muslim) the human part takes over. That includes; power, greed and god-like behavior. If only people could simply learn to love and respect each other this would be a much better wonderful world. But as long as there are people that twist the word of God and its sacred teachings and use it for personal gain, this world will always be in chaos. Remember Hell is not just for losers, but for those that also break the spiritual laws as defined in all the great religions.

Part of the reason why I'm still an infidel.:laugh:


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> And that my friend IS THE PROBLEM, there is too much hate. As I was writing this the news stated that groups of Muslim's are attemping to burn down Christian churches. Why? And how does this disprove the historical quote? Am I going to be hated now because I chose to start this thread in a non-hate way? Perhaps all of you are not understanding why I started this thread. It was not to spread hate, but to show EVERYONE how foolish, destructive hate is and how it is spread.


Such a good point.. 
If a Muslim is reading this, just forgive the Pope, and get over it.. No need to spread more hate, that just proves the Popes point



> Kanok, I understand the term "inquisition". Inquisition was a horrible historical reality. We both agree that it was wrong. However, FREE SPEECH is something we in the Western world take for granted. Not all nations enjoy FREE SPEECH. *In the west, we talk freely without fear from religious punishment from the Bible, Koran or Torah. * *We (I) believe judgement of the soul is for God to decide, not man.* *Punishment on earth is for Man to decide based on the priniciples of law; fairness, truth and justice.* *Historically, any religious group that comes to power (be it Christian or Muslim) the human part takes over. That includes; power, greed and god-like behavior. If only people could simply learn to love and respect each other this would be a much better wonderful world. But as long as there are people that twist the word of God and its sacred teachings and use it for personal gain, this world will always be in chaos. Remember Hell is not just for losers, but for those that also break the spiritual laws as defined in all the great religions. *


Awesome... Such a great point, you are so right on the money here.. I love this post

Kanok,
I hope to see Muslims here in the US stand up and denounce what happened on 9/11, and other ugly terrorism worldwide. We have not heard that yet, 5 years later even. 
There are no riots because there was 'no apology' here, but there are lots of people who don't trust that there is a sect of Muslims who are against it either, simply because no public denouncement has been given.

The Pope did not say anything out of line. He was speaking from an ancient document, and hatred for him for reading it, is simply intolerant, and strengthens those ancient words


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## sicklid-holic (Mar 25, 2005)

Nuke all them infidel muslim MILITANTS







. I think the Western World is too soft on the militants. End of story.


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## MONGO  (Feb 7, 2006)

I love the Pope what a cool guy would love to have a beer with him and president bush.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

kanok said:


> The only people needing to appologize are the Muslims.


ı didn't understand! moslem will apologize! you are telling this.
Like your, these ıs fıery! the dıscord seed ıs scatterıng!
aggressor ıs doing these people! we are becoming mature agressor later!
and you course to my belief, I curse on me yours!

make fun of, you are running away too much!

*WE ONLY WANT THE RESPECT! DO WE WANT A LOT?*
[/quote]
asking for respect is not alot, and all muslims (and in particular the middle east) need to do to earn it is to put their tendencies toward destruction and violence on hold.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

More evidence why Israel should not concede land to the Palestinians: If this is how they react to the Pope's comment, how will they react when a Jewish leader says something they don;t like?

5 churches attacked in Palestinian areas following Pope's comments on Islam 
Sat Sep 16, 1:22 PM

(I'm too tired to post the link. Yuu'll find it on Yahoo News.)










By Ali Daraghmeh

NABLUS, West Bank (AP) - Palestinians wielding guns and firebombs attacked five churches in the West Bank and Gaza on Saturday, following remarks by Pope Benedict that angered many Muslims.

No injuries were reported in the attacks, which left church doors charred and walls pockmarked with bullet holes and scorched by firebombs. Churches of various denominations were targeted.

Relations between Palestinian Muslims and Christians are generally peaceful, and the attacks on the churches sparked concern that tensions would heighten.

"The atmosphere is charged already, and the wise should not accept such acts," Rev. Yousef Saada, a Greek Catholic priest in Nablus, said Saturday.

Ayman Daraghmeh, a legislator from the ruling Islamic militant Hamas group, denounced the attacks. Dozens of police took up position around churches in Nablus to protect the holy sites.

Firebombings left black scorch marks on the walls and windows of Nablus' Anglican and Greek Orthodox churches. At least five firebombs hit the Anglican church and its door was later set ablaze. Smoke billowed from the church as firefighters put out the flames

*In a phone call to The Associated Press, a group calling itself the "Lions of Monotheism" claimed responsibility for those attacks, saying they were carried out to protest the Pope's remarks in a speech this week in Germany linking Islam and violence. *  
Later Saturday, four masked gunmen doused the main doors of Nablus' Roman and Greek Catholic churches with lighter fluid, then set them afire. They also opened fire on the buildings, striking both with bullets.

*In Gaza City, militants opened fire from a car at a Greek Orthodox church, striking the facade. A policeman at the scene said he saw a car armed men inside flee the scene. Explosive devices were set off at the same Gaza church on Friday, causing minor damage. *

There were no claims of responsibility for the last three attacks Saturday.

"The people who did this are uneducated and ignorant," said the Gaza church's prelate, Rev. Artinious Alexious.

In his speech, Benedict cited an obscure Medieval text that characterizes some of the teachings of Islam's founder as "evil and inhuman."

The Vatican later said the Pope, spiritual leader of more than one billion Roman Catholics, did not intend the comments to be offensive. However, they have sparked worldwide protests by Muslims, and Muslim leaders have demanded an apology.

George Awad, a cleric at the Greek Orthodox church in Nablus, said he and other Christians have apologized for the Pope's remarks and urged Muslims to use restraint.

"There is no reason to burn our churches," he said.

*On Friday, about 2,000 Palestinians protested against the Pope in Gaza City, accusing him of leading a new Crusade against the Muslim world.*(Cry me a River!!) Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas said the Pope had offended Muslims everywhere.

Christians make up a small - and dwindling - minority of several tens of thousands among the more than three million Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem. The Palestinian Authority has made considerable efforts to ensure the political representation of Christians.

Bishop Riah Abo El-Assal, the top Anglican clergyman in the Holy Land, said Saturday he expected his Muslim colleagues would swiftly denounce the attacks on the churches. He called them "childish acts" and said he was not increasing security at the Anglican churches in the area.

In Nablus, merchant Khaled Ramadan, who was dressed in traditional Islamic garb, said the Pope's comments were unforgivable, but that Palestinians must not fight among themselves.

"We are one people and violent reactions like these should not happen here," he said



> But beware of people, for they will hand you over to courts and scourge you in their synagogues,
> and you will be led before governors and kings for my sake as a witness before them and the pagans


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## User (May 31, 2004)

> When they hand you over, do not worry about how you are to speak or what you are to say. You will be given at that moment what you are to say.


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## Omnius (Mar 20, 2006)

kanok said:


> *WE ONLY WANT THE RESPECT! DO WE WANT A LOT?*


As long as Muslims are acting intolerant and violent to other peoples views and beliefs yes you are asking alot.... When Muslims decide to behave civily and embrace public civil debate and refrain from mass violence and hysterics over minor comments made about their religion than no its not alot.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

Omnius said:


> *WE ONLY WANT THE RESPECT! DO WE WANT A LOT?*


As long as Muslims are acting intolerant and violent to other peoples views and beliefs yes you are asking alot.... When Muslims decide to behave civily and embrace public civil debate and refrain from mass violence and hysterics over minor comments made about their religion than no its not alot.
[/quote]
seconded


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## MONGO  (Feb 7, 2006)

Cant live with em but cant kill em.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> sicklid-holic Posted Today, 08:14 PM
> Nuke all them infidel muslim MILITANTS . I think the Western World is too soft on the militants. End of story.





> RockinTimbz Posted Today, 10:05 PM
> Cant live with em but cant kill em.


If you are not part of the solution, then you are the problem. Let's show some respect in a thread that I expect everyone to show respect in discussing this topic intelligently.

If you can't do that, then stay out of the thread.

As I said Kanok, WE ALL have a lot of growing up to do.


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## BAKIR (Mar 8, 2004)

Başka derdiniz yok mu sizin...

Din ile terörü bir tutuyorsunuz.

Please; faith ≠ terror

All people freedom... (İngilizcem yok "Tüm insanlar özgürdür" diyorum. oturun çevirin bir zahmet.)

Translation English-Turkish http://www.sozluk.web.tr/index.php

Ben müslüman olduğum için terörist muamelesi görmekten sıkıldım... Doğmadan önce bana mı sordular hangi ülkede doğmak istersin, hangi dini seçmek istersin diye...

This forum subject = piranha

Bu forumun konusu piranha olmalı...

Kapatın şu konuyu yeter...


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## LouDiB (May 22, 2006)

BAKIR said:


> Başka derdiniz yok mu sizin...
> 
> Din ile terörü bir tutuyorsunuz.
> 
> ...


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## Pacuguy (Apr 10, 2004)

i just read this in the paper friday, im not even sure whats going on anymore, its too exhausting to try and keed up with it all.

when i read the paper now i just skip the the funnies, its much easier that way
LOL


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## User (May 31, 2004)

An italian nun has been killed in Somalia and its linked to all the discord.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

apparently, muslims like to lynch people for cartoons and quotes...how civilized.


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

yes, ıs killed
pope wanted this
pope was knowing, he will become such!
and talking nonsense, to think pope

Allah (c.c.) cezanızı verecek, gavur sürüleri! bunuda çevirin bakalım, varsa türkçe bilen bir arkadaşınıza! kıbrısta müslüman Türkleri katlettiniz, Cezayir'de 1.000.000 dan fazla müslüman ı katlrettiniz, soykırım yaprtınız, Amerikan yerlilerinin soyunu tükettiniz! Hindistanı ve dünyanın dört bir yanını sömürdünüz, tunus, fas ta kan saçtınız, 10 yıl önce KOSOVA da müslümanları katlettiniz, SIRP piçlerine göz yumdunuz, BOSNADA müslümanlara soykırım yapıldı sesiniz çıkmadı, destek oldunuz, KIRIM'da GAGAUZ ları katlettiniz, çerkezleri öldürdünüz, AFRİKA yı sömürdünüz!

SOMALİ'YE yardıma gidip, öyle söyleyip petrolünü hortumladınız, haram yediniz! SADDAM hüseyini siz başa getirdiniz siz indirdiniz! USAME BİN LADİN'i siz beslediniz, siz terörist ilan ettiniz, o küleleri bile belki siz vurdunuz! amın oğullarııııı, orospu çocukları! bunları müslümanlarmı yaptı anasını siktiğimin yavşakları. SOMALİDE bir RAHİP ölmüş müş! aman ne yazık olmuş. gebersin a.q. kaltağı, filistinde sisin desteklediğiniz İSrail çoluk çocuk herkesi vuruyor ulann! vuruyor. onuda mı biz yaptık. Haçlı seferlerinde bizmi kan saçtık! AVrupa parlamentosuna teröristleri bizmi aldık orospunun evlatları!

ALLAH HEPİNİZİN BELASINI VERSİN, İNŞALLAH KURANIN DEDİĞİ GİBİ KIYAMET BAŞINIZA PATLAR!. bu kadar bedduaya kamyon çarpması lazım aslında ama işte... hahahahaha

çevirin lan bunları piçler! TURN THESE OWN YOUR TONGUE!

happy is a man who can say 'i am a turk'

English translating :

İs Allah give your crime.you are invasionist.You was killed muslim turk people in cyprus and 1.000.000 muslim peoples in a Algeria.You did genocide.Tunisia,Bosnia Herzegovina and etc....

You was killed indian from. (U.S.A) .You know U.S.A .You say "in god we trust".You don't know god.

U.S.A,you gone somalia for help.You give all oil.
Saddam Hussain is you make president.Your get down.Osama bin laden is a CIA agent.You know this.
See this,so who terrorist.

İf your country do invasion.What do you do.You are not to be a terrorist?

A ISRAEL everytime killing civil and the child.Who is a terrorist.

IF YOUR COUNTRY DO INVASION.WHAT DO YOU DO.YOU ARE NOT TO BE A TERRORIST,ISN'T IT?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> User Posted Today, 09:11 AM
> An italian nun has been killed in Somalia and its linked to all the discord.


Yes, just read that, was shot 4 times in the back. An act of a coward in the name of a religion.



> kanok Posted Today, 11:28 AM
> yes, ıs killed
> pope wanted this
> pope was knowing, he will become such!
> and talking nonsense, to think pope


Yes, the Pope is against Jesus Christ who is the prince of peace. The Pope orders people to cut off peoples heads and blows up buildings, innocent woman and children all in the name of Christ, in todays world.

Come on Kanok, you can't really believe this do you?



> CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI said Sunday that he was "deeply sorry" about the angry reaction to his recent remarks about Islam, which he said came from a text that didn't reflect his personal opinion.
> 
> *"These (words) were in fact a quotation from a Medieval text which do not in any way express my personal thought,"* Benedict told pilgrims at his summer palace outside Rome.


Just what I said.

More news:



> Churches burned in West Bank
> Earlier Sunday in the West Bank, two churches were set on fire as anger over the pope's comments grew throughout the Palestinian territories.
> 
> In the town of Tulkarem, a 170-year-old stone church was torched before dawn and its interior was destroyed, Christian officials said. In the village of Tubas, a small church was attacked with firebombs and partially burned, Christians said. Neither church is Catholic, the officials said.


Clearly shows the ignornace of people when common sense is colored by religious views.


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

you dont undertand me truely

papa talk kaphazard and ıt is obvious that because papa doesnt think what says


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

/wonders if kanok is qickshot....

/wonders what kanok thinks of violent islamic behavior

/doesn't expect a response


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> kanok Posted Today, 11:46 AM
> you dont undertand me truely
> 
> papa talk kaphazard and ıt is obvious that because papa doesnt think what says


I do understand you. That's the problem. What I don't understand is why you are having problems with comprehending the Pope quoted from a text in a University. The Pope never said he agreed with the text. And the Pope has said it was NOT his personal opinion. Freedom in the West is freedom to think FOR YOURSELF.


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## Omnius (Mar 20, 2006)

As I said earlier as long as Muslims continue to do these extreme acts over silly and irrelivent things then they will be viewd as ingorant, violent, and other undsireanle names.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

We need a translator









This discussion could be quite interesting. But, alas.... no.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> acestro Posted Today, 12:09 PM
> We need a translator
> 
> This discussion could be quite interesting. But, alas.... no.


Very true, could be why Rome killed the messenger.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Zoiks!

/wonders how zoiks translates into Turkish...


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

kanok said:


> yes, ıs killed
> pope wanted this
> pope was knowing, he will become such!
> and talking nonsense, to think pope


wow, the pope quoted something implying that islam is essentially violent and that they live by the sword and the muslims prove him right and this is somehow his fault? maybe he thought that muislims everywhere would want to prove sucha a notion wrong but i guess not. this was all part of his evil plan to discredit muslims by using muslims lol are you f*cking insane or just stupid?


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

"How dare the west think we're violent? We'll show them! Lets burn and kill westerners! Rise up and riot!"

Can someone here explain how muslims believe in the one and only god/God Allah yet they worship muhammed as if he was a god? They claim hes only a prophet but they raise him to a status as if he was a deity. I guess you can compare it to catholicism...but catholics wouldn't be offended if one of their saints was badly mouthed.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2006)

diddye said:


> "How dare the west think we're violent? We'll show them! Lets burn and kill westerners! Rise up and riot!"
> 
> Can someone here explain how muslims believe in the one and only god/God Allah yet they worship muhammed as if he was a god? They claim hes only a prophet but they raise him to a status as if he was a deity. I guess you can compare it to catholicism...but catholics wouldn't be offended if one of their saints was badly mouthed.


B.S.

But it wouldnt be to the same extent.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> An italian nun has been killed in Somalia and its linked to all the discord.


Found out a bit more about this killing. She was in the hospital tending to sick muslim children when she was shot in the back.


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Interesting thread-

When i was younger i studied for the ministry and have ever since studied religions from the historical and the doctrinal standpoint. Islam and Christinaity have about the bloodiest history of any two faiths that have ever clashed- and its only going to get worse.

But thats not what i wanna get into.. just something interesting i've learned over the years and think about a lot. It was once said that "religion is the opiuom of the people" it was a Marxist comment that a lot of people would agree with.

However, one of the christian faiths takes it a bit further- their theory is that except for their own faith, the Devil is actauly over all other faiths- kinda like when Ol Jesus told them Pharisee's that their father wasn't Abraham, but rather the devil- this would mean that Islam, every last muslim on earth was in essence serving Satan, being blinded by the religions he's set up in opposition to God's way of doing things at the same time though, it means that the Pope too is serving the devil as well as every catholic, every hindu, buddist, ect..

Today my personal take on religion is that, after looking at the way religion divides people and is such a catapolt towards voilence that maybe it is just an opiom, it makes one feel good about themselves and allows them to get high on being morally right in their actions cuz "god is on their side"- or it really is all a tool of the devil to divide mankind.

Either way it dont matter to me much, i dont respect the islamic religion. I may meet muslims who i can be freinds with (i have some) even have freindly arguments with over religion. But respect the religion? No. If i said something to offend the sensibilities of a muslim, i simply wouldnt care.

However the same can be said of the Pope and his church. My personal veiw of the catholic faith is that it is a cult with the head of that cult being whoever is the current pope. That doesnt mean i hate people who are catholic, again i have catholic freinds, some of whom i am very close to. But the faith itself to me is something i can barely stomach.

One all faiths though, overall Islam is one of the largest enemies mankind has had in the last 800 years. At one time the religion boasted one the the most forward and progressive movements in human history- education, technology even expectations of cleaniness were surpassing those of "the christian world" and other cizilazations.

Something happened though- and its not the western worlds fault- the desire for exploration, for learning and advancement gave way to petty greed and tolernce and compassion gave way to hatred and jealousy.

Today a LARGE part of the islamic world sits in darkness, their world veiw clouded by propaganda, by hatred and fed excusses for why their world is in shambles by having blame put on "infidel jews and western and christian Infidels.

Untill that veil is lifted, untill these people stop looking for someone to blame for their condition- and start looking at how they can improve themselves without killing off the rest of makind "who is to blame for all they think is wrong in the world" the islamic world will continue to be a breeding ground for extermists and terrorists hellbent on finding any justification they can come up with to be mad at any non muslim.

The rest of the world has about the same odds of accomplishing that goal as a family member would have of helping the brother they can't stand to begin with to break their opium habit..


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

kanok said:


> However, one of the christian faiths takes it a bit further- their theory is that except for their own faith, the Devil is actauly over all other faiths- kinda like when Ol Jesus told them Pharisee's that their father wasn't Abraham, but rather the devil- this would mean that Islam, every last muslim on earth was in essence serving Satan, being blinded by the religions he's set up in opposition to God's way of doing things at the same time though, it means that the Pope too is serving the devil as well as every catholic, every hindu, buddist, ect..


The notion that the Devil rules all other faiths is a man-made post-Gospel construct. In the Gospels, the infant Jesus is greeted by 3 wise men from the East - an obvios reference to the unity of faiths - and the Good Samaritan is the only one who would help the persecuted Jesus. ANother man that Jesus heals is told to go back to the synagogue and keep his mouth shut and observe the Laws of Moses. As far as the passage from John, Jesus implies that the Pharisees, as legalists, are serving the Devil, not that the Jews inherently serve the Devil.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> wow, the pope quoted something implying that islam is essentially violent and that they live by the sword and the muslims prove him right and this is somehow his fault? maybe he thought that muislims everywhere would want to prove sucha a notion wrong but i guess not. this was all part of his evil plan to discredit muslims by using muslims lol are you *f*cking* insane or just stupid?


Let's find some other suitable words than profanity. Yes I know the filters are there, but no need to take things into the gutter language. My personal request ok?


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

As far as the attacks on churches and nuns, society unfortunately will need to whip up some of that Old-School Twelve-tribes of Israel wrath, or this BS is bound to continue. Terrorists like this only respect strength. Again, noone messes with China. And how can anyone who always gets down on Christianity look a blind eye at blatant religious persecution. Again, the Left hates religious persecution, unless it's persecution of Christianity.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> "How dare the west think we're violent? We'll show them! Lets burn and kill westerners! Rise up and riot!"
> 
> Can someone here explain how muslims believe in the one and only god/God Allah yet they worship muhammed as if he was a god? They claim hes only a prophet but they raise him to a status as if he was a deity. I guess you can compare it to catholicism...but catholics wouldn't be offended if one of their saints was badly mouthed.


B.S.

But it wouldnt be to the same extent.
[/quote]

Explain.


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## sicklid-holic (Mar 25, 2005)

Oheye8one2 said:


> The rest of the world has about the same odds of accomplishing that goal as a family member would have of helping the brother they can't stand to begin with to break their opium habit..


IMO there is no hope for the Muslim world that cator to Islamic Jihadist and Extremists. These people are brought up and brain washed since little children to kill all Infidels (non-muslims). Look at all the children that died from the rescent Middle East wars, These childrens volunteered themselves to be used as human shields for the sake of "ALLAH" (there so called god)? A lot of these childrens, especially boys has been raised and trained for combat till adulthood. Thinking that to kill an Infidel is a ticket to heaven (even 20 virgins are waiting in heaven).

"Imagine a little plant that is growing and started to bent and curve, then you put a twig (stick) to make its growth straight, slowly it will grow straight. However, You cant bent a full grown plant to make it straight. It will break."

The only hope for the Muslim world to stop its deep hatred and violence on the Western World is education. There government must have open minded schools and teach what Chrisitanity is all about. Teach what the Western government is all about, its education, its freedom, and all the diversity of all different race and religion living together in peace.

Until these happens the Muslim world would still be living in a Barbaric world full of hatred and jealousy to the Western World, and blaming the Western World for having them leave in the God forsaken countryeace2:


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

Cutting off the money supply for terrorist subversion within our own borders would be a grand start.


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

[/quote]

Christianity's history was bloody up until the era of the modern nation state, when facism, totalitarianism, and Islamic extremism took over. During the transition, facism appropriated Christianity for its' violent ends, but it was overall a secular system uniting corporations and govt. Totalitarianism in the Marxist sense repudiates religion. Since the holocaust, Christianity and Judaism have grown closer and closer together, in large part due to the bonding of the two religions with classic liberalism, that is freedom from authoritarianism and freedom to exchange. Given as much, what matters *now* is that the most violent religion on earth is Islam, and anayone who denies this is either ignoring the facts or is an enemy sympathizer. People who keep ranting on about Chirstianity's violent history, and I know all about it being brought up Jewish, are providing a smokescreen for radical Islam. 
[quote name='Oheye8one2' post='1618818' date='Sep 17 2006, 04:59 PM']

Not entirely true- for the first couple centuries after the birth of chrisitanity no one who called himself a christian served in a military- those who were in the military had to give up their position in the roman (usualy) army- regardless of the personal cost. I think that the first know cases of christians remaining in the military are not untill around 300 a.d. Untill then the idea of a christian being part of the military was an absolute no no for 2 main reasons (1) being part of such meant you had to possible take the lives of other humans- and the role of christians was to save people- not put them to death. (2) serving in the military meant one was taking a stand in political matters, which was in direct conflict with the accpeted beleifs of christians, which was that they were subjects of Gods kingdom and essiantally forieners living in whatever "state" or country they found themselves in. As christians they were to be represenitives of Jesus here on earth untill they procurred their positions in heaven as co rulers with him in his Kingdom.

At one time Christinas were considered the most docile of all groups- even to the point of being rediculed as pacifists. It wasn't untill Christinaity joined itself to the Roman Empire that it became the bloodthirsty monster that would lend its hand to such things as the Inquisition, the Crusades and even sharing a role in the holocost, to name but a few atrocieites.


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

[/quote]

The notion that the Devil rules all other faiths is a man-made post-Gospel construct. In the Gospels, the infant Jesus is greeted by 3 wise men from the East - an obvios reference to the unity of faiths - and the Good Samaritan is the only one who would help the persecuted Jesus. ANother man that Jesus heals is told to go back to the synagogue and keep his mouth shut and observe the Laws of Moses. As far as the passage from John, Jesus implies that the Pharisees, as legalists, are serving the Devil, not that the Jews inherently serve the Devil.
[/quote]

Again, not entriely true- Jesus opposed the Pharisee's as a religions group- 
1- Mtt 23:1,2 then spake jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples saying the scribes and pharisees sit in the seat of moses all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do but do not due after their works: for they say and do not...

the rest of the chapter does no deal with the Pharisee's as a legal body but continue's to condem them as a part of the religious heirarchy- along with the scribes. Jesus passes along condemnation to the rest of the jews in the sae chapter- verse 37- "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that hast killed the phrophets and stonest them them which are sent unto thee, how often would i have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not."

From the early christian veiwpoint it wasn't that untill that moment that Judiasm was evil, or not acceptable to God, its that the form of it that most were practicing was unacceptable, especialy as most had in the eyes of christinas rejected Jesus as the messiah and thus had come under the servitude of Satan.

as for the "the three wise men" both the Mosiac law (and the rest of the torah) as well as the N.T make it completly clear that God hates interfaith, it is something that he was totaly against. If the O.T is the true word of God- and Christ was a fraud, then according to the O.T sharing in an interfaith movement with christins is spiritual adultry in Gods eyes. Likewise the same would hold true for christianity, if in fact this Jesus feller is who he claimed to be- then a christain particapating in religious ceromonies with other faiths, or even holding them on equal footing as christianity would certainly be in essence rejecting his own faith.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Please tie in what this has to do with a published document being read and taken out of context. As I stated earlier (Soures), just because he wrote something and I read it to the public in an academic setting for study, does not mean I agree with what he wrote. Its a discussion. It also doesn't mean we should destroy non-piranha fishes because of it.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

[quote post='1618818']
Not entirely true- for the first couple centuries after the birth of chrisitanity no one who called himself a christian served in a military- those who were in the military had to give up their position in the roman (usualy) army- regardless of the personal cost. I think that the first know cases of christians remaining in the military are not untill around 300 a.d. Untill then the idea of a christian being part of the military was an absolute no no for 2 main reasons (1) being part of such meant you had to possible take the lives of other humans- and the role of christians was to save people- not put them to death. (2) serving in the military meant one was taking a stand in political matters, which was in direct conflict with the accpeted beleifs of christians, which was that they were subjects of Gods kingdom and essiantally forieners living in whatever "state" or country they found themselves in. As christians they were to be represenitives of Jesus here on earth untill they procurred their positions in heaven as co rulers with him in his Kingdom.

At one time Christinas were considered the most docile of all groups- even to the point of being rediculed as pacifists. It wasn't untill Christinaity joined itself to the Roman Empire that it became the bloodthirsty monster that would lend its hand to such things as the Inquisition, the Crusades and even sharing a role in the holocost, to name but a few atrocieites.
[/quote]

I never mentioned anything about early, persecuted Christianity. I assumed we were discussing Christianity once it was bound up with the ruling class.

[quote post='1618968']



> Fargo said,
> 
> The notion that the Devil rules all other faiths is a man-made post-Gospel construct. In the Gospels, the infant Jesus is greeted by 3 wise men from the East - an obvios reference to the unity of faiths - and the Good Samaritan is the only one who would help the persecuted Jesus. ANother man that Jesus heals is told to go back to the synagogue and keep his mouth shut and observe the Laws of Moses. As far as the passage from John, Jesus implies that the Pharisees, as legalists, are serving the Devil, not that the Jews inherently serve the Devil.


 Again, not entriely true- Jesus opposed the Pharisee's as a religions group- 
1- Mtt 23:1,2 then spake jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples saying the scribes and pharisees sit in the seat of moses all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do but do not due after their works: for they say and do not...

the rest of the chapter does no deal with the Pharisee's as a legal body but continue's to condem them as a part of the religious heirarchy- along with the scribes. Jesus passes along condemnation to the rest of the jews in the sae chapter- verse 37- "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that hast killed the phrophets and stonest them them which are sent unto thee, how often would i have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not."

From the early christian veiwpoint it wasn't that untill that moment that Judiasm was evil, or not acceptable to God, its that the form of it that most were practicing was unacceptable, especialy as most had in the eyes of christinas rejected Jesus as the messiah and thus had come under the servitude of Satan.

as for the "the three wise men" both the Mosiac law (and the rest of the torah) as well as the N.T make it completly clear that God hates interfaith, it is something that he was totaly against. If the O.T is the true word of God- and Christ was a fraud, then according to the O.T sharing in an interfaith movement with christins is spiritual adultry in Gods eyes. Likewise the same would hold true for christianity, if in fact this Jesus feller is who he claimed to be- then a christain particapating in religious ceromonies with other faiths, or even holding them on equal footing as christianity would certainly be in essence rejecting his own faith.
[/quote]

You're not reading between the lines. Jesus has no problem with the Mosaic Law that the Pharisees preach but instead condemns their actions. He's merely pointing out the universal problem of religious hypocrisy. This does not mean their religion is of Satan but merely that Satan has infiltrated their religion, which has been the case with Christianity for centuries. As far as verse 37, Jesus is merely reiterating what is probably the underlying theme of THe Bible: God makes a covenant with his people, which is validated by the prophets, and the people go against God time and again. This is the Biblical worldview and not a blanket condemnation of the Jews. There is nothing in the Old Testament that indicates that Christ is a fraud, but rather the symbology and prophecy all point to Jesus. Most of the warnings against interfaith relate to practicing the rituals of the Pagans, whose gods are considered inferior but not necessarily of the Devil.

And besides, all the ancient interpretaions of scriptures are inevitably parochial, as people needed to stick together in order to survive. Part of enlightenment is to find the underlying message in the biblical themes and to disregard the human elements of intolerance that pertain to ancient customs of surviving in violent societies. This brings us back to Islam, which in many ways refuses to graduate from the ancient and medieval forms of religion that are bound up in violence and intolerance. Jews and Christians that share such attitudes - like the reconstructionists - are considered dangerous by the Judeo-Christian majority.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> This brings us back to Islam, which in many ways refuses to graduate from the ancient and medieval forms of religion that are bound up in violence and intolerance. Jews and Christians that share such attitudes - like the reconstructionists - are considered dangerous by the Judeo-Christian majority.


You're wrapping them up like blanket w/that statement. Not all Muslims follow that mentality, but they are being awfully quiet in allowing the loudmouths one to speak for all of them. The same would go with some Christians who claim to follow Christ teachings, yet act like religous zealots, certainly I've seen many that don't practice what they preach ($$$$$).


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > This brings us back to Islam, *which in many ways refuses to graduate from the ancient and medieval forms of religion that are bound up in violence and intolerance*. Jews and Christians that share such attitudes - like the reconstructionists - are considered dangerous by the Judeo-Christian majority.
> 
> 
> You're wrapping them up like blanket w/that statement. Not all Muslims follow that mentality, but they are being awfully quiet in allowing the loudmouths one to speak for all of them. The same would go with some Christians who claim to follow Christ teachings, yet act like religous zealots, certainly I've seen many that don't practice what they preach ($$$$$).


_"In many ways," _ described more accurately as, _many of whose adherents_ are bound up in violence and intolerance. Allowing for 5-10% of the Islamic population being intolerant, warrior-like, indifferent to, or supportive of extremists - a generous allowance by all means considering what the polls in many countries spell out - that converts to roughly 52-103 million Muslims worldwide, ergo "many of whose adherents." Hypocritical Christians normally do not condone violence in the name of God, thus a different form of hypocrisy.

Here are findings from an Aug, 7 2006 research poll of British Muslims:

Aug. 7, 2006 update: GfK NOP Social Research has published a survey, "Attitudes to Living in Britain," and made the topline findings available. Despite the generic title, only Muslims were polled. They numbered 1,000 in all, and included young and old, male and female.

Refer to the United Kingdom as "my country": 49 percent. 
Agree with the idea that Muslims should keep themselves separate from non-Muslims: 4 percent. 
Prefer to live under Sharia law: 30 percent. 
Wish to see Britain as an Islamic state: 28 percent. 
Punish the people who published the Danish cartoons: 78 percent. 
Arrest and prosecute British people who insult Islam: 68 percent. 
The Jewish Holocaust did not happen or has been exaggerated: 19 percent. (1 in 5







)
9/11 was a conspiracy by America and Israel: 45 percent. (Plus 35 percent reply "don't know.") 
Princess Diana was killed to stop her marrying a Muslim: 36 percent. 
Likely that British Muslims will become victims of extreme religious persecution: 56 percent. 
Agree that the July 2005 transport bombings were justified because of British support for the war on terror: 22 percent. (Of note: 31 percent of young Muslims agree, compared to 14 percent of those 45 and over.) 
Can understand why young British Muslims might want to carry out suicide operations: 13 percent. 
Think that a Muslim who knew about an act of terrorism being planned by another Muslim and did not report it to the authorities is not at all to be blamed: 9 percent.


----------



## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

Source please. Also, a source on the "10% of muslims are warrior extremists".


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Source please. Also, a source on the "10% of muslims are warrior extremists".


I knew I'd get you in a rant about this.

http://www.ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/291

Here are key excerpts:



> Asked about attitudes towards free speech, there was little support for freedom of speech if it would offend religious sensibilities. 78% of Muslims thought that the publishers of the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammed should be prosecuted, 68% thought those who insulted Islam should be prosecuted and 62% of people disagree that freedom of speech should be allowed even if it insults and offends religious groups.





> Back to the Muslim poll, NOP also asked if British Muslims thought that relgious leaders who supported terrorism should be removed - 68% agreed, with 22% disagreeing.


Wow, roughly 1 in 5 in support of leaders who support terrorism. My 5-10% estimate must be too low for Great Britain.

If you read my post, you'll see I wrote warrior like, intolerant of others, indifferent, or supportive of extremists. Of course the polls will vary. I'm merely estimateing, and I'm sure the results in Britain are quite an anomaly. For instance in Pakistan, where the govt. has reestablished relations with the Taliban, I'm sure this has nothing to do with reading the public mood and is a smack against the will of the people. Pakistan I'm sure has less support for extremism and Sharia law than Great Britain.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Source please. Also, a source on the "10% of muslims are warrior extremists".


Its funny. You always ask for other people to reference their posts but as long as you've been here I dont remember you ever posting anything to reference your POV's.


----------



## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

> While a small minority of Muslims sympathise with extremism and Islamist terror, the vast majority do not.


Every religion/ideology.



> 94% of respondents disagreed that Muslims should live separately from non-Muslims


Wow. Im pretty sure you could find much higher rates for almost every single minority in America.



> Sharia law does not necessarily equate to the hand-chopping, adulterer-stoning version in the tabloid press, Western countries like Canada have in the past allowed the use of Sharia law under limited circumstances for things like inheritance law, so it was then impossible to tell exactly what people were supporting


...



> 28% of British Muslims agreed that they dreamt of Britain one day becoming an Islamic state. *Again, it's worth putting this in proportion - I am sure many evangelical Christians would dream of the day when the whole world would embrace Christianity.*


True.



> NOP also found a tendency for British Muslims to believe some, well, strange things. 45% thought that 9/11 was a conspiracy between the USA and Israel. 36% thought that Princess Diana was murdered to stop her marrying a Muslim. More seriously, only 29% thought that the holocaust occured, 2% denied it happened entirely, 17% think it was exaggerated (which is the stance proposed by most of today's holocaust deniers), 24% said they had "no opinion" and 23% didn't know what the holocaust was. Again though, putting this in context, non-Muslims think odd things too - an ICM poll in 2004 found 14% of people in the UK thought that the scale of the holocaust had been exaggerated, 27% of the general public told NOP in 2003 that Princess Diana had been murdered (a poll commissioned, unsurprisingly, for the Sunday Express). I can't find a British poll on whether 9/11 was a US conspriracy, but I have little doubt that a substantial minority would say it was. Yes, a minority of Muslims believe bizarre things, *but then a minority of non-Muslims do too!*


Interesting.

I think all of the religions in the world are corrupt right now, and dont support any of the leaders (right down to priests, etc). Unfortunately, the conflict with Muslim extremist is a rolling snowball of problems. An attack leads to prejudice. Prejudice leads to hate. Hate leads to another attack. How people can still think of all out war as an option is beyond me, tho, as this has been proven through history (french resistance, the collapse of Rome) to be simply pointless. You want to stop the terrorist. Target those in control, bring them to justice, treat them as any westerner should be treated. Set the example. Dont allow yourself to throw more fuel on the fire.



diddye said:


> Source please. Also, a source on the "10% of muslims are warrior extremists".


Its funny. You always ask for other people to reference their posts but as long as you've been here I dont remember you ever posting anything to reference your POV's.
[/quote]

You should have asked


----------



## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

Of course Dannyboy missed the one key stat, which was the entire basis for bringing out this source:



> Back to the Muslim poll, NOP also asked if British Muslims thought that relgious leaders who supported terrorism should be removed - 68% agreed, with 22% disagreeing. Cross-referencing these results, NOP characterised 9% of the Muslims they surveyed as "hardcore Islamists" - people who thought that it was perfectly okay to speak in support of terrorism, but thought people should be prosecuted for insulting Islam.


There you go, 22% on the high end, and 9% on the low end. Data is such a stubborn thing. All the other stats are just for show, although the fact that an overwhelming majority thought free speech - something I'm sure you cherish - should be prohibited in the case of insulting Islam is alarming in and of itself. But I see you were more concerned with citing possible parallels with America and Christianity, something the politically correct article was concerned about as well.


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

İs Allah give your crime.you are invasionist.You was killed muslim turk people in cyprus and 1.000.000 muslim peoples in a Algeria.You did genocide.Tunisia,Bosnia Herzegovina and etc....

You was killed indian from. (U.S.A) .You know U.S.A .You say "in god we trust".You don't know god.

U.S.A,you gone somalia for help.You give all oil.
Saddam Hussain is you make president.Your get down.Osama bin laden is a CIA agent.You know this.
See this,so who terrorist.

İf your country do invasion.What do you do.You are not to be a terrorist?

A ISRAEL everytime killing civil and the child.Who is a terrorist.

IF YOUR COUNTRY DO INVASION.WHAT DO YOU DO.YOU ARE NOT TO BE A TERRORIST,ISN'T IT?


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## hellwardens (Sep 18, 2006)

Kanok you are right. Who is a terrorist?

This forum's subject is a piranha.Do not forget this.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

The western world should ask itself one question: Are we growing stronger or weaker in the war against terror? If stronger, we should consern ourselves with humanitarian, educational work. If we are growing weaker ( which i think is the case, look at how pourly Nato stands on the afganistan issue) we should prepair for the inhumanity the "enemy" (which we must first identify, IMO the nations we know would attack us right this moment if they could) will serve us as soon as theyre power outgrows our. And a complete counter attack could be the only solution, we are basically putting our next generations into a war where the share number of people massing against uswill shurely overwealm us/them. its not fair to ourselves to stack all the cards agains our own side before residing. something drastic must happen and it must happen before its too late. Inhumane maybe, but in an effort to survive.
even as the contrys we are at conflict with are growing massively in numbers and theyre weapons becoming more soffisticated, we are also loosing support within our own borders.

Id love to see a world in peace, but soon we will overpopulate(perhaps this has already happened) this planet and thats when the teeth and claws will show themselves.should we whait or act?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> kanok Posted Today, 02:32 AM
> İs Allah give your crime.you are invasionist.You was killed muslim turk people in cyprus and 1.000.000 muslim peoples in a Algeria.You did genocide.Tunisia,Bosnia Herzegovina and etc....
> 
> You was killed indian from. (U.S.A) .You know U.S.A .You say "in god we trust".You don't know god.
> ...


kanok, all countries have their hands soiled in blood. It is not limited to the United States. But this discussion OF THE PAST is not what this discussion is about. It is about TODAY and who is killing the innocent.

Today there is no genocide of American Indians, they own casinos and making a billion dollar profit.:laugh:

As for Osama being a CIA agent, I think you are believing Michael Moore movies.









As for ISRAEL, what can I say. Muslim attack Israel, Israel attacks back. SELF DEFENSE. The same would be true if the roles were reversed.

As for ALLAH, oh how easy it is to say what ALLAH said this. What if ALLAH commanded all MUSLIMS to kill themselves. Who on earth has that authority? Will you do it? Oops, sorry forgot the are killing themselves in the name of ALLAH. I still like to know what human on earth has that authority to command that.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

Fargo said:


> Of course Dannyboy missed the one key stat, which was the entire basis for bringing out this source:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually Fargo, I quoted things which I saw were interesting.

Funny how you are so quick to point out that I was selective, when in your previous posts, you were just as selective in what quotes to posts. Basically, I posted quotes which you had left out, thus giving us a more complete sense of what was mentioned in this article and what the results of the poll were.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > kanok Posted Today, 02:32 AM
> > İs Allah give your crime.you are invasionist.You was killed muslim turk people in cyprus and 1.000.000 muslim peoples in a Algeria.You did genocide.Tunisia,Bosnia Herzegovina and etc....
> >
> > You was killed indian from. (U.S.A) .You know U.S.A .You say "in god we trust".You don't know god.
> ...


is that not true?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

This thread hurts my head in so many ways.

/looks up information on Ottoman empire...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

_As for Osama being a CIA agent, I think you are believing Michael Moore movies._



> Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom Posted Today, 08:22 AM ...is that not true?


Only if you are a Bush basher. Who knows if its true or not. I'm sure not going to buy into internet chatter on conspiracy theories. Call it the scientist in me. But just because people hate Bush and his Administration (I'm no supporter btw), doesn't mean that Bush is causing violent storms, or the next comet hit on earth. .........geeeeeeez.









Latest news.



> "We tell the worshipper of the cross (the pope) that you and the West will be defeated, as is the case in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya," said an Internet statement by the Mujahideen Shura Council, an umbrella group led by al-Qaida in Iraq.
> 
> "We shall break the cross and spill the wine. ... God will (help) Muslims to conquer Rome. ... *God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen," said the statement.*
> 
> It was posted on Sunday on an Internet site often used by al-Qaida and other militant groups.


Pretty much says what this is about killing and $$$$$.



> acestro Posted Today, 08:29 AM
> This thread hurts my head in so many ways.
> 
> /looks up information on Ottoman empire...


I know what you mean. I overlook the ongoing theology lesson....who really cares about that?

I'm just want to know why PEOPLE (ie; Muslims) are burning churches, threatening to KILL THE POPE all based on an old text taken out of context in an academic setting. Who is nuttier?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

/sees civilization slip backwards










I just dont want to even imagine what would happen if the wrong folks got their hands on nuclear weapons. How long can that threat be held off?









ToP


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> acestro Posted Today, 08:35 AM
> /sees civilization slip backwards
> 
> *I just dont want to even imagine what would happen if the wrong folks got their hands on nuclear weapons. How long can that threat be held off? *
> ...


I can tell you that, the Muslim guy in Iran already challenged Bush to drop a nuke on his head. Pretty much says it all.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Fun fun fun....

Not sure if Islam wants to pick on those tempermental Italians....

I dated one once and almost got run over by her car!!!

Fiesty latinas = Fiesty Italians > fiesty islamos

sorry for that derail


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

kanok said:


> Of course Dannyboy missed the one key stat, which was the entire basis for bringing out this source:


Actually Fargo, I quoted things which I saw were interesting.

Funny how you are so quick to point out that I was selective, when in your previous posts, you were just as selective in what quotes to posts. Basically, I posted quotes which you had left out, thus giving us a more complete sense of what was mentioned in this article and what the results of the poll were.
[/quote]

Fair enough. The reason I quoted that source was exactly because it was fair and balanced and couldn't be accused of extreme bias.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I dont know if kanok is all about taking this to a civilized discussion Fargo... but excellent retort.

/feels there is much brainwashing in this world (our country DEFINITELY not excuded)


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> acestro Posted Today, 08:50 AM
> 
> Fun fun fun....
> 
> ...


Spanish blood, that's what good for dinner.







Its my thread, I can derail it if I wish. Besides, it would take me all day to get past all that historical religious stuff anyway, this makes a good diversion.

Latest news: _Extremist muslim call for the Pope's execution_....... Is that really news???









If I recall correctly, Muslim have no fear of dying. They get to see ALLAH. assuming it is the right one to see, there is always the other guy (DEVIL). IF they die as a martar (never could spell that right) they get their 70 beds with 70 virgins. I always wondered what the newest killers get (women)? 70 beds with 70 virgin men? Seems like a contradiction to me. If they succeed in killing off the world, there won't be any virgins PERIOD. Of course, there are barely any left today.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

for most of them its prob all about the punani...
heck i would kill myself for 70 good looking virging( for an eternity..)'

i wonder if all that is stated in the contract they sign before they willingly go to their deaths..


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

Im positive 90-95% of casual conversationalist will skip this post due to length, but I'll post it anyway.



> In the name of the God of Creation and Wisdom
> 
> Your Majesty, Your Royal Highnesses, Honourable Members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, Excellencies, Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> ...


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

hastatus said:


> _As for Osama being a CIA agent, I think you are believing Michael Moore movies._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I didnt know it had to do with Bush. Just curious... thats all


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> C0Rey Posted Today, 09:20 AM
> for most of them its prob all about the punani...


Couldn't have said it better.


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

wth did that lady do to get the peace prize?


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

Boobah said:


> wth did that lady do to get the peace prize?





"wikipedia said:


> Ebadi was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for her significant and pioneering efforts for democracy and human rights, especially for the rights of women and children.


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

acestro said:


> This thread hurts my head in so many ways.
> 
> /looks up information on Ottoman empire...


ANYWAY, I AM READİNG THE HİSTORİCAL İN THE ÜNİVERSİTY
ANYWAY, I AM THE STUDENT THE HİSTORİY DEPARTMENT İN THE UNİVERSITY

I KNOW GOOD OTTOMAN EMPİRES
OTTOMAN, MY PAST. THE PAST OF TURK. YOU WİLL TEACH ME?
-------------

THE İSRAEL IS CONVİNCEİNG THE EVERYBODY! YOU ARE BELİEVEING IN ON YOU!
--------

I WİLL NOT ANSWER MORE! 
YOU ARE RESİSTİNG NOT UNDERSTAND! YOU BELİEVED THE LİE!
YOU ARE THİNGING VERY HARD!
SOMEBODY ISN'T CLEAN, ON YOU AREN'T NEVER CLEAN!

DON'T SPEAK BY MİSKATE, READ HİSTORİCAL YOU. WİTHOUT THE LİE!


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

kanok said:


> This thread hurts my head in so many ways.
> 
> /looks up information on Ottoman empire...


ANYWAY, I AM READİNG THE HİSTORİCAL İN THE ÜNİVERSİTY
ANYWAY, I AM THE STUDENT THE HİSTORİY DEPARTMENT İN THE UNİVERSITY

I KNOW GOOD OTTOMAN EMPİRES
OTTOMAN, MY PAST. THE PAST OF TURK. YOU WİLL TEACH ME?
-------------

THE İSRAEL IS CONVİNCEİNG THE EVERYBODY! YOU ARE BELİEVEING IN ON YOU!
--------

I WİLL NOT ANSWER MORE! 
YOU ARE RESİSTİNG NOT UNDERSTAND! YOU BELİEVED THE LİE!
YOU ARE THİNGING VERY HARD!
SOMEBODY ISN'T CLEAN, ON YOU AREN'T NEVER CLEAN!

DON'T SPEAK BY MİSKATE, READ HİSTORİCAL YOU. WİTHOUT THE LİE!
[/quote]

U suck @ life and i hope Turkie never makes it into the European Union!


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

kanok said:


> This thread hurts my head in so many ways.
> 
> /looks up information on Ottoman empire...


ANYWAY, I AM READİNG THE HİSTORİCAL İN THE ÜNİVERSİTY
ANYWAY, I AM THE STUDENT THE HİSTORİY DEPARTMENT İN THE UNİVERSITY

I KNOW GOOD OTTOMAN EMPİRES
OTTOMAN, MY PAST. THE PAST OF TURK. YOU WİLL TEACH ME?
-------------

*THE İSRAEL IS CONVİNCEİNG THE EVERYBODY! YOU ARE BELİEVEING IN ON YOU!*--------

I WİLL NOT ANSWER MORE! 
YOU ARE RESİSTİNG NOT UNDERSTAND! YOU BELİEVED THE LİE!
YOU ARE THİNGING VERY HARD!
SOMEBODY ISN'T CLEAN, ON YOU AREN'T NEVER CLEAN!

DON'T SPEAK BY MİSKATE, READ HİSTORİCAL YOU. WİTHOUT THE LİE!
[/quote]

The Israel is convincing the everybody, ie: World Zionist Conspiracy. I always look to decipher the main ponits.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> kanok Posted Today, 09:38 AM
> QUOTE(*acestro @ Sep 18 2006, 10:29 AM)
> 
> This thread hurts my head in so many ways.
> ...


kanok, acestro is a teacher and he was only joking. Don't turks or muslims have a sense of humor?

As for history, its written by humans who write with agendas. I personally don't believe everything written otherwise, I'd still be afraid of piranhas.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

Fargo said:


> This thread hurts my head in so many ways.
> 
> /looks up information on Ottoman empire...


ANYWAY, I AM READİNG THE HİSTORİCAL İN THE ÜNİVERSİTY
ANYWAY, I AM THE STUDENT THE HİSTORİY DEPARTMENT İN THE UNİVERSITY

I KNOW GOOD OTTOMAN EMPİRES
OTTOMAN, MY PAST. THE PAST OF TURK. YOU WİLL TEACH ME?
-------------

*THE İSRAEL IS CONVİNCEİNG THE EVERYBODY! YOU ARE BELİEVEING IN ON YOU!*--------

I WİLL NOT ANSWER MORE! 
YOU ARE RESİSTİNG NOT UNDERSTAND! YOU BELİEVED THE LİE!
YOU ARE THİNGING VERY HARD!
SOMEBODY ISN'T CLEAN, ON YOU AREN'T NEVER CLEAN!

DON'T SPEAK BY MİSKATE, READ HİSTORİCAL YOU. WİTHOUT THE LİE!
[/quote]

The Israel is convincing the everybody, ie: World Zionist Conspiracy. I always look to decipher the main ponits.
[/quote]

Explain?


----------



## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

hastatus said:


> > kanok Posted Today, 09:38 AM
> > QUOTE(*acestro @ Sep 18 2006, 10:29 AM)
> >
> > This thread hurts my head in so many ways.
> ...


sense of humor? not when it involves anything about them or their religion. If they had a sense of humor people wouldn't have died over a freakin cartoon.

although those cartoons weren't realy that funny...


----------



## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > kanok Posted Today, 09:38 AM
> > QUOTE(*acestro @ Sep 18 2006, 10:29 AM)
> >
> > This thread hurts my head in so many ways.
> ...


sense of humor? not when it involves anything about them or their religion. If they had a sense of humor people wouldn't have died over a freakin cartoon.

although those cartoons weren't realy that funny...
[/quote]

Ignorance.

Not all Muslims can be wrapped into a tight little package, just as not all Germans were Jew haters, not all Vikings raped and not all Americans are murderers (even tho you have, by far, the highest murder per capita rate in the western world).


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## x-J-x (Nov 28, 2002)

kanok said:


> This thread hurts my head in so many ways.
> 
> /looks up information on Ottoman empire...


ANYWAY, I AM READİNG THE HİSTORİCAL İN THE ÜNİVERSİTY
ANYWAY, I AM THE STUDENT THE HİSTORİY DEPARTMENT İN THE UNİVERSITY

I KNOW GOOD OTTOMAN EMPİRES
OTTOMAN, MY PAST. THE PAST OF TURK. YOU WİLL TEACH ME?
-------------

THE İSRAEL IS CONVİNCEİNG THE EVERYBODY! YOU ARE BELİEVEING IN ON YOU!
--------

I WİLL NOT ANSWER MORE! 
YOU ARE RESİSTİNG NOT UNDERSTAND! YOU BELİEVED THE LİE!
YOU ARE THİNGING VERY HARD!
SOMEBODY ISN'T CLEAN, ON YOU AREN'T NEVER CLEAN!

DON'T SPEAK BY MİSKATE, READ HİSTORİCAL YOU. WİTHOUT THE LİE!
[/quote]

Thatz what the Pope did...he read the exert from a book...he was not making it up...get this information through your head...

You wanted the Pope to appologize for what he read from a book of which he doesn't agree with...how do you justify your actions for the violent and crimes committed agains the innocents...how can you justify your killings?...because of what?...because of a cartoon and because of an exert from a book?...

I feel sorry for you...you don't know the definition of freedom...you don't know what it means to be free....


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> This thread hurts my head in so many ways.
> 
> /looks up information on Ottoman empire...


ANYWAY, I AM READİNG THE HİSTORİCAL İN THE ÜNİVERSİTY
ANYWAY, I AM THE STUDENT THE HİSTORİY DEPARTMENT İN THE UNİVERSITY

I KNOW GOOD OTTOMAN EMPİRES
OTTOMAN, MY PAST. THE PAST OF TURK. YOU WİLL TEACH ME?
-------------

*THE İSRAEL IS CONVİNCEİNG THE EVERYBODY! YOU ARE BELİEVEING IN ON YOU!*--------

I WİLL NOT ANSWER MORE! 
YOU ARE RESİSTİNG NOT UNDERSTAND! YOU BELİEVED THE LİE!
YOU ARE THİNGING VERY HARD!
SOMEBODY ISN'T CLEAN, ON YOU AREN'T NEVER CLEAN!

DON'T SPEAK BY MİSKATE, READ HİSTORİCAL YOU. WİTHOUT THE LİE!
[/quote]

The Israel is convincing the everybody, ie: World Zionist Conspiracy. I always look to decipher the main ponits.
[/quote]

Explain?
[/quote]

It's self-explanatory. I'll read your long quote later after work. Right now it'll make me feel like Ancestro.


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

DannyBoy17 said:


> > kanok Posted Today, 09:38 AM
> > QUOTE(*acestro @ Sep 18 2006, 10:29 AM)
> >
> > This thread hurts my head in so many ways.
> ...


sense of humor? not when it involves anything about them or their religion. If they had a sense of humor people wouldn't have died over a freakin cartoon.

although those cartoons weren't realy that funny...
[/quote]

Ignorance.

Not all Muslims can be wrapped into a tight little package, just as not all Germans were Jew haters, *not all Vikings raped* and not all Americans are murderers (even tho you have, by far, the highest murder per capita rate in the western world).
[/quote]

why would you want to take that away from us?!!


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> x-J-x Posted Today, 10:01 AM
> QUOTE(kanok @ Sep 18 2006, 04:38 PM)
> 
> QUOTE(acestro @ Sep 18 2006, 10:29 AM)
> ...


Don't be hard on him. This thread is a free discussion of ideas and beliefs. No one should verbally attack him. He's just stating what he believes and there is nothing wrong with it so long as it doesn't turn into personal attacks.


----------



## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

I want to hear more from Kanok.

Please explain some more. I want to understand what you mean and the history.


----------



## x-J-x (Nov 28, 2002)

hastatus said:


> > x-J-x Posted Today, 10:01 AM
> > QUOTE(kanok @ Sep 18 2006, 04:38 PM)
> >
> > QUOTE(acestro @ Sep 18 2006, 10:29 AM)
> ...










I wasn't really taking personal shots at him...just frustrated when such a simple matter could turn into something so deadly...and outright ridiculous...


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> I wasn't really taking personal shots at him...just frustrated when such a simple matter could turn into something so deadly...and outright ridiculous...


The frustration comes from the lack of adequate translators from Turkish to English. That's what is frustrating to me. Its hard for him to convey what he is saying in English, just as it would be if you used an internet translator to tell him in Turkish. The essence of the message would be lost in the translation.

BTW U.S. Muslims are speaking out against the violence against the Pope. That's a good thing.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > I wasn't really taking personal shots at him...just frustrated when such a simple matter could turn into something so deadly...and outright ridiculous...
> 
> 
> *The frustration comes from the lack of adequate translators from Turkish to English. That's what is frustrating to me.* Its hard for him to convey what he is saying in English, just as it would be if you used an internet translator to tell him in Turkish. The essence of the message would be lost in the translation.
> ...


Agreed!!!

And it's sad how few people listen to the U.S. Muslims (including U.S. folk).


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> acestro Posted Today, 10:18 AM ....And it's sad how few people listen to the U.S. Muslims (including U.S. folk).


Hey now, lets not derail the thread with too much truth here.


----------



## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > I wasn't really taking personal shots at him...just frustrated when such a simple matter could turn into something so deadly...and outright ridiculous...
> 
> 
> *The frustration comes from the lack of adequate translators from Turkish to English. That's what is frustrating to me.* Its hard for him to convey what he is saying in English, just as it would be if you used an internet translator to tell him in Turkish. The essence of the message would be lost in the translation.
> ...


Thank you, Frank, for this great post.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> I want to hear more from Kanok.
> 
> Please explain some more. I want to understand what you mean and the history.


Regarding the Ottoman empire, I was joking (maybe not the best thread for joking...). But, as I often do, I was half-making a point. I know that many had been killed over the hundreds of years of that empire (which was centered in Turkey). It was my sly way of saying what others here have said; blood is on the hands of every culture. While history is important and relevant, history from 100 or 200 or so years ago is only useful in a contextual form. I also knew that through all the mis-communication here that "Ottoman empire" would stand out to the angry turk's vision...

I think the thing kanok needs to know is that not all Americans are the same, much like not all muslims are the same. It doesn't seem like much of a mental leap to me.


----------



## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

Fargo said:


> I want to hear more from Kanok.
> 
> Please explain some more. I want to understand what you mean and the history.


Regarding the Ottoman empire, I was joking (maybe not the best thread for joking...). *But, as I often do, I was half-making a point. * I know that many had been killed over the hundreds of years of that empire (which was centered in Turkey). It was my sly way of saying what others here have said; blood is on the hands of every culture. While history is important and relevant, history from 100 or 200 or so years ago is only useful in a contextual form. I also knew that through all the mis-communication here that "Ottoman empire" would stand out to the angry turk's vision...

I think the thing kanok needs to know is that not all Americans are the same, much like not all muslims are the same. It doesn't seem like much of a mental leap to me.
[/quote]

Did I miss those threads?














Jokes man, all love.

If so many minds in this world cannot comprehend taking a step forward in global understanding, why on earth would you expect them to take a leap?


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Define step. Define leap.

Realizing that not everyone in your country/race/religion is the same and applying that to another culture should only be a step. I guess having an entire culture be so open-minded is the leap.


----------



## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

People cant even respect others in thier own society, thier own culture. They cant respect other's rights or other's opinions. Im asking why you would expect anyone these days to respect someone of another culture when we go through so much trouble just to respect eachother.


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

Acestro,
teacher, a lot of
he is speaking uneducated, how is student raiseing? with this hatred
he is speaking coarse. he is speaking empty. 
I don't hear necessary answering! 
anyway, he the USA! He is probably the english
The creative OF THE WİLDNESS!
THEY KILLID THE SCOTCH
THEY KILLID THE IRISH AND NATİVE OF THE AMERİCA
AFRİKAN MOSLEM KILLID, İNDİAN ETC.... DOES NOT FİNIS WRİTHİNG?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

what?

No hatred. Get a new translator.


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

kanok said:


> Acestro,
> teacher, a lot of
> he is speaking uneducated, how is student raiseing? with this hatred
> he is speaking coarse. he is speaking empty.
> ...


WHAT!!









i thought you said you didnt want to answer anymore?
i think he is blaming the British now,hes not studying history hes just finished watching bravehart and has some emotional releases due to mel gibsons awesome performance.








peace man!


----------



## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> > kanok Posted Today, 09:38 AM
> > QUOTE(*acestro @ Sep 18 2006, 10:29 AM)
> >
> > This thread hurts my head in so many ways.
> ...


sense of humor? not when it involves anything about them or their religion. If they had a sense of humor people wouldn't have died over a freakin cartoon.

although those cartoons weren't realy that funny...
[/quote]

Ignorance.

Not all Muslims can be wrapped into a tight little package, just as not all Germans were Jew haters, not all Vikings raped and not all Americans are murderers (even tho you have, by far, the highest murder per capita rate in the western world).
[/quote]

alright i'll be more precise so you understand better....

when i was talking about muslims, i only meant the crazy- jihadist-extremist-would-chop-your-head-off-no-matter-how-much-you-said-you-sympathized-with-them-riot-bomb-burn-over-a-cartoon-and-the pope-quoting-a-text muslims.

ingorance? please....i've always been quick to point out that TRUE islam is peaceful, but it's kind of hard to ignore the overwhelming silence of any muslim who might actually stand up and defend their religion in a positive way. so far it seems like there's 2 sides, the extremist, and the hippy left-wingers who stand up for the non-extremist. I'd love to see a large demonstration by the peaceful Muslims where they CLEARLY stand apart from the crazy ones.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

/about to 'kill' a fifth of 'scotch'

(translate that!)

one more try...

kanok, have you read the teachings of Fethullah Gülen?

This is someone who has taught tolerance of others (and was Turkish and islamic).


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> acestro Posted Today, 10:47 AM
> 
> /about to 'kill' a fifth of 'scotch'
> 
> (translate that!)


I've got to go kill an egg for breakfast...oops, time has flown. Need to kill a pig for a ham and cheese sandwich for lunch. BBL.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I'm having one of those days too Frank! Thunderstorms really slow me down....

Here is a great quote responding to the Pope's readings:



> I sincerely hope that the Muslims, expecting at least an apology from the pope-which is their most natural right-would react to this unfortunate event in a civilized manner, most becoming of the principles of Islam taught by the prophet of peace and mercy, so that we may avoid the likes of the cartoon crises of not so distant past.


I only wish people would listen to this guy...

Here is his website:

http://en.fgulen.com/


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

acestro said:


> /about to 'kill' a fifth of 'scotch'
> 
> (translate that!)
> 
> ...


ı never don't love ıt. he is radical islam
he goes too much, Turkey ıs for dangerous! he is old-fashioned!

I DON'T LOVE FETHULLAH GÜLEN!
--------

I LOVE "MUSTAFA KEMAL ATATÜRK.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Gulen is radical?

How is he dangerous for Turkey?


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

/Learns Mozart's Turkish Rondo all morning before work :rasp:


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

You do know that MUSTAFA KEMAL ATATÜRK helped create a secular state, correct?

So why all the hub-bub... sorry... Why all the difficulty with the Pope?



Fargo said:


> /Learns Mozart's Turkish Rondo all morning before work :rasp:


/sees "/" by Fargo

/is afraid of switching places with Fargo

/cannot handle this amount of political 'speak'


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> acestro Posted Today, 11:22 AM
> 
> You do know that MUSTAFA KEMAL ATATÜRK helped create a secular state, correct?
> 
> So why all the hub-bub... sorry... Why all the difficulty with the Pope?


I was wondering the same thing. What a contradiction.


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## kanok (Sep 16, 2006)

acestro said:


> Gulen is radical?
> 
> How is he dangerous for Turkey?


he is refuge, radical islam.

he is enemy for Republic. and dangerous.

he is moslem religious law a *partisan*

Sheri'a partisan!

ı am not loving.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

I was just watching CNN International, and they showed Iraqis in Basra burning an effigy of the pope, and as it was burning, some Muslim tossed in an Israeli flag for good measure. Had to laugh.

Oh Here's the picture, but you can't see the charred flag. This should be entitled,
*"Say Islam Is Peaceful Or We Will Kill You"  *


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## Omnius (Mar 20, 2006)

^Sooo true.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

i tried watching smackdown...just couldn't get into it.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> I sincerely hope that the Muslims, expecting at least an apology from the pope-which is their most natural right-would react to this unfortunate event in a civilized manner, most becoming of the principles of Islam taught by the prophet of peace and mercy, so that we may avoid the likes of the cartoon crises of not so distant past.


Well, after the Nun killing, and the other murders, violence, riots, and destruction of property, we can say...

"Too late"


----------



## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> > I sincerely hope that the Muslims, expecting at least an apology from the pope-which is their most natural right-would react to this unfortunate event in a civilized manner, most becoming of the principles of Islam taught by the prophet of peace and mercy, so that we may avoid the likes of the cartoon crises of not so distant past.
> 
> 
> Well, after the Nun killing, and the other murders, violence, riots, and destruction of property, we can say...
> ...


Dippy


----------



## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> Dippy


Explain..
What did I say wrong now, Danny?


----------



## Enriqo_Suavez (Mar 31, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> > I sincerely hope that the Muslims, expecting at least an apology from the pope-which is their most natural right-would react to this unfortunate event in a civilized manner, most becoming of the principles of Islam taught by the prophet of peace and mercy, so that we may avoid the likes of the cartoon crises of not so distant past.
> 
> 
> Well, after the Nun killing, and the other murders, violence, riots, and destruction of property, we can say...
> ...


So true









Actually, I disagree with the original statement... "expecting... an apology... which is their most natural right" This is so far from being true that it's hard to know where to begin. But I'd start with a definition of 'rights'... They have nothing resembling a 'right' to an apology, nor should they expect one, nor is one anywhere near necessary.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I'm still wondering why it is necessary to kill people who take a quote out of an historical document in an academic setting. I still haven't received any reply from a Muslim why it is necessary to kill.


----------



## LouDiB (May 22, 2006)

DannyBoy17 said:


> > kanok Posted Today, 09:38 AM
> > QUOTE(*acestro @ Sep 18 2006, 10:29 AM)
> >
> > This thread hurts my head in so many ways.
> ...


sense of humor? not when it involves anything about them or their religion. If they had a sense of humor people wouldn't have died over a freakin cartoon.

although those cartoons weren't realy that funny...
[/quote]

Ignorance.

Not all Muslims can be wrapped into a tight little package, just as not all Germans were Jew haters, not all Vikings raped and not all Americans are murderers (even tho you have, by far, the highest murder per capita rate in the western world).
[/quote]

Not all African Americans can be wrapped up into a tight little package, but the make up over half the muderers in our country while representing a....12% of the total population, but we can't hate all AA's...or certainly not blame them for being the cause for murder...

And danny...why are you attacking Dippy...??


----------



## User (May 31, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> > I sincerely hope that the Muslims, expecting at least an apology from the pope-which is their most natural right-would react to this unfortunate event in a civilized manner, most becoming of the principles of Islam taught by the prophet of peace and mercy, so that we may avoid the likes of the cartoon crises of not so distant past.
> 
> 
> Well, after the Nun killing, and the other murders, violence, riots, and destruction of property, we can say...
> ...


Dippy















[/quote]

They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace,' they say, when there is no peace.

Sorry Danny but that goes along so well with this topic.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

Who attacked Dippy? I certainly didnt. I only showed that I didnt agree with what he was saying.

But really, I know my opinion is useless and irrelevant to most people on here so who cares, right?


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## User (May 31, 2004)

I really dont know your opinion, you usually say you dont agree with Dippy but never give a complete statement.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

> Islam is a religion whose first sermon to the Prophet begins with the word "Recite!" The Koran swears by the pen and what it writes. Such a sermon and message cannot be in conflict with awareness, knowledge, wisdom, freedom of opinion and expression and cultural pluralism


.

In part true, but any follower of the three main religions mst be honest that there is plenty in all their scriptures that goes against pluralism, because the stuff was written for a different social environment.



> The discriminatory plight of women in Islamic states, too, whether in the sphere of civil law or in the realm of social, political and cultural justice, has its roots in the patriarchal and male-dominated culture prevailing in these societies, *not in Islam. * This culture does not tolerate freedom and democracy, just as it does not believe in the equal rights of men and women, and the liberation of women from male domination (fathers, husbands, brothers ...), because it would threaten the historical and traditional position of the rulers and guardians of that culture.


From the Koran:

Women have rights that are similar to men, but men are "a degree above them." 2:228 
Women are feeble and are unable to devise a plan. 4:98 
A woman is worth one-half a man. 2:282 
Believing women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves. 24:31 
Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34 
Women must cover themselves when in public. 33:59 
Males are to inherit twice that of females. 4:11 
Those who disbelieve in the afterlife give female names to angels. 53:27


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

Islam:

The Prophet said, 'He who has a slave-girl and teaches her good manners and improves her education and then manumits and marries her, will get a double reward; and any slave who observes Allah's right and his master's right will get a double reward.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Manumission of Slaves, Volume 3, Book 46, Number 723)

If anyone cares for three daughters, disciplines them, marries them, and does good to them, he will go to Paradise. (Translation of Sunan abu Dawud, Book 41, General Behavior (Kitab Al-Adab), Number 5128

And among God's signs is this: He created for you mates from amongst yourselves (males as mates for females and vice versa) that you might find tranquillity and peace in them. And he has put love and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those who reflect. (The Noble Quran, 30:21)

..and for women are rights equal to the rights against them but men have a degree over them (in the context of divorce) in what is just. (The Noble Quran, 2:228)

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)

Bible:

Birth of any female is a loss: Ecclesiasticus 22:3 "....and the birth of ANY daughter is a loss

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "And in case men struggle together (in a fight) with one another, and the wife of the one has come near to deliver her husband out of the striking one (to save her husband), and she has thrust out her hand and grabbed hold of his private (the other man's groin), she must then get both her hands cut off, and the eyes of the men must feel no sorrow."

Exodus 21:7-8 "And in case a man should sell his daughter as a slave girl, she will not go out in the way that the slave men go out. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master so that he doesn't designate her as a concubine but causes her to be redeemed, he will not be entitled to sell her to a foreign people in his treacherously dealing with her."

Revelation 14:4 "Those are those (men) who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb."

I feel the comparison is rediculous and out of context for both sides.


----------



## Fido (May 21, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> You really hate Muslims, dont you?


Why would someone hate Muslims?? It is a religion of peace









http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article...slim/article.do

"demonstrations against the publication of cartoons of Mohammed in February in Denmark. Protesters carried placards declaring "Behead Those Who Insult Islam".

Yesterday he said: "The Muslims take their religion very seriously and non-Muslims must appreciate that and that must also understand that there may be serious consequences if you insult Islam and the prophet.

"Whoever insults the message of Mohammed is going to be subject to capital punishment."

He added: "I am here have a peaceful demonstration. But there may be people in Italy or other parts of the world who would carry that out.

"I think that warning needs to be understood by all people who want to insult Islam and want to insult the prophet of Islam."


----------



## User (May 31, 2004)

Fido The Great said:


> You really hate Muslims, dont you?


Why would someone hate Muslims?? It is a religion of peace









http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article...slim/article.do

"demonstrations against the publication of cartoons of Mohammed in February in Denmark. Protesters carried placards declaring "Behead Those Who Insult Islam".

Yesterday he said: "The Muslims take their religion very seriously *and non-Muslims must appreciate that and that must also understand that there may be serious consequences if you insult Islam and the prophet.*

"Whoever insults the message of Mohammed is going to be subject to capital punishment."

He added: "I am here have a peaceful demonstration. But there may be people in Italy or other parts of the world who would carry that out.

"I think that warning needs to be understood by all people who want to insult Islam and want to insult the prophet of Islam."
[/quote]


----------



## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> I feel the comparison is rediculous and out of context for both sides.


I'm not sure what all that means, but this can all be summed up very succinctly: Islam has a higher percentage of members who still adhere to ancient and medieval ways of thinking translated into violence. Judaism and Christianity have much less, and most of their extremists mind their own business, and while believing in theocracy, do not as a rule propagate it, except the religious right of the Republican party, which are simply a whorish tool for the GOP to win votes.

We can reflect back all we want about the past atrocities of Christianity, but it will noever solve the problem at hand, namely the high number of Muslims engaged in acts of violent Jihad. The facts on the international scene spell this out time and again. Think about it: If Christian zealots were burning mosques right now and shooting Sufi Mystics, the Left would rightfully be up in arms. So where is there outcry over the persecution of churches and the shooting of nuns?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I'm sure glad that I don't go to church. You folks have so many rules to follow.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Sums more things up what this whole "holy war" is about.



> MSNBC staff and news service reports
> Updated: 2:07 p.m. PT Sept 18, 2006
> CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida in Iraq warned Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that its *war against Christianity and the West will go on until Islam takes over the world,* and Iran's supreme leader called for more protests over the pontiff's remarks on Islam.


Its about power.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

kanok said:


> Gulen is radical?
> 
> How is he dangerous for Turkey?


he is refuge, radical islam.

he is enemy for Republic. and dangerous.

he is moslem religious law a *partisan*

Sheri'a partisan!

ı am not loving.
[/quote]

Okay, I'll try one more time.

You do know that MUSTAFA KEMAL ATATÜRK helped create a secular state, correct?

So why the difficulty with the Pope?

It seems that information and education are enemies of modern Islam?


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

acestro, I think we are not going to get much of an answer. My singular question hasn't been answered yet, that started this thread.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

oh yeah


----------



## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

hastatus said:


> acestro, I think we are not going to get much of an answer. My singular question hasn't been answered yet, that started this thread.:laugh:


wait a sec what was the original question (serious)?


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Beats me, forgot since it started out with a copy/paste of the original news report and then I followed up with this statement past all the other threads:



> Evidently we are having translator problems, from English to Turkish and vice versa. *But asking the Pope to apologize for reading a quote from a historical document which was done in the academic setting. The Pope was taken out of context from that academic setting. This would be like me taking a portion of Myers, The Piranha Book who reported Sousa, in his Descriptise Treatise on Brazil in 1587, wrote that Indians do not trust themselves to the water where this fish is, because they attack them much and bite cruelly. People on PFURY would not burn down my house because I stated something historical in a writing.* I hope you translate what I wrote properly into your own language and understand that communicating with each other clearly is important.


I then followed up with a question (a few times) why was it necessary for Muslims to kill people, etc., etc., etc.


----------



## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

hastatus said:


> Beats me, forgot since it started out with a copy/paste of the original news report and then I followed up with this statement past all the other threads:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hmm, yah i dont think you're gonna get a straihgt answer, at least not one w/ an answwer to please everybody. but hey if that fails you could get really into piranha and create a website dedicated to.........hey wait a minute


----------



## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Sorry to derail any further, but..


DannyBoy17 said:


> Sums more things up what this whole "holy war" is about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bingo


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> McDoddridge Posted Today, 10:40 PM ....hmm, yah *i dont think you're gonna get a straihgt answer, at least not one w/ an answwer to please everybody.* but hey if that fails you could get really into piranha and create a website dedicated to.........hey wait a minute


I was hoping solely a reply on kanok who is Turkish. But reading what I have read so far, I'm probably better off creating a web site on piranhas. At least I know no one will kill me or burn me down for quoting old text........which I do quite often.:laugh:


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

McDoddridge said:


> Beats me, forgot since it started out with a copy/paste of the original news report and then I followed up with this statement past all the other threads:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hmm, yah i dont think you're gonna get a straihgt answer, at least not one w/ an answwer to please everybody. but hey if that fails you could get really into piranha and create a website dedicated to.........hey wait a minute
[/quote]

lol









i think we can agree that it doesnt matter what the Koran says or what mohammed preached or even what the west does.

The people that kill, bomb and violently protest anything the west does do it because they suck @ life.
They are either poor, misinformed or brainwashed. they are jealus and frustrated. i mean half of the people protesting prob dont know whats happening, they are just happy to burn stuff, get that anger out!! 
As long as their economy and educational system is full of anti everyone else there is not much hope of settling any disputes. Whatever we do if its to piss on the koran or make a simple joke they will still respond with the same violence and ask for our beheading!

sorry maybe getting a bit carried away here but im just so freakin tired of this....


----------



## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

C0Rey said:


> Beats me, forgot since it started out with a copy/paste of the original news report and then I followed up with this statement past all the other threads:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hmm, yah i dont think you're gonna get a straihgt answer, at least not one w/ an answwer to please everybody. but hey if that fails you could get really into piranha and create a website dedicated to.........hey wait a minute
[/quote]

lol :laugh:

i think we can agree that it doesnt matter what the Koran says or what mohammed preached or even what the west does.

The people that kill, bomb and violently protest anything the west does do it because they suck @ life.
They are either poor, misinformed or brainwashed. they are jealus and frustrated. i mean half of the people protesting prob dont know whats happening, they are just happy to burn stuff, get that anger out!! 
As long as their economy and educational system is full of anti everyone else there is not much hope of settling any disputes. Whatever we do if its to piss on the koran or make a simple joke they will still respond with the same violence and ask for our beheading!

sorry maybe getting a bit carried away here but im just so freakin tired of this....
[/quote]

you're not the only 1


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

But then that opens another can of worms. These Muslims are not afraid of dying, they welcome it because they believe they will see Allah. What if there is nothing there? Your dead PERIOD. Religion for the most part is based on BLIND FAITH. In my humble opinion.


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

hastatus said:


> But then that opens another can of worms. These Muslims are not afraid of dying, they welcome it because they believe they will see Allah. What if there is nothing there? Your dead PERIOD. Religion for the most part is based on BLIND FAITH. In my humble opinion.


and if they want to bring it im not afraid to kill them!!


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> C0Rey Posted Today, 11:20 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Sep 19 2006, 08:17 AM)
> 
> But then that opens another can of worms. These Muslims are not afraid of dying, they welcome it because they believe they will see Allah. What if there is nothing there? Your dead PERIOD. Religion for the most part is based on BLIND FAITH. In my humble opinion.
> ...


----------



## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

hastatus said:


> But then that opens another can of worms. These Muslims are not afraid of dying, they welcome it because they believe they will see Allah. What if there is nothing there? Your dead PERIOD. Religion for the most part is based on BLIND FAITH. In my humble opinion.


well that is implyed by the worth "faith" but you're basically right. i think the answer to the question that was never really asked is just that people are getting sick and tired of this and one day there gonna be a breaking point where nobody want to put up w/ their crap anymore. i don't know when or what will happen, but for better or for worse im sure that it will.


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > C0Rey Posted Today, 11:20 PM
> > QUOTE(hastatus @ Sep 19 2006, 08:17 AM)
> >
> > But then that opens another can of worms. These Muslims are not afraid of dying, they welcome it because they believe they will see Allah. What if there is nothing there? Your dead PERIOD. Religion for the most part is based on BLIND FAITH. In my humble opinion.
> ...


----------



## WhiteLineRacer (Jul 13, 2004)

> Today a LARGE part of the islamic world sits in darkness, their world veiw clouded by propaganda, by hatred and fed excusses for why their world is in shambles by having blame put on "infidel jews and western and christian Infidels.
> 
> Untill that veil is lifted, untill these people stop looking for someone to blame for their condition- and start looking at how they can improve themselves without killing off the rest of makind "who is to blame for all they think is wrong in the world" the islamic world will continue to be a breeding ground for extermists and terrorists hellbent on finding any justification they can come up with to be mad at any non muslim.
> 
> The rest of the world has about the same odds of accomplishing that goal as a family member would have of helping the brother they can't stand to begin with to break their opium habit..


Too true.

Many Muslims who do get the idea to go go west arrive, sponge off the state then decide that they would like to turn said adopted country into an Islamic state thus throwing it down the shitter a la the country they left in the first place. I don't get it?

Extremists feel the world hates them so they have to shout louder and longer over the slightest thing and in doing so prove how wrong they are, can they not see this?


----------



## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

F every single one of these Muslim f*ckers who have one bad thing to say about what the pope said...they are the first ones to crash a plane into a building, but then come out against him???!! Nuke em!!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I'll write it again, this is supposed to be an intelligent conversation.......I know the swear filters are on, please use other words so as not to be offensive IN MY THREAD.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Like so many things (including some loud mouths in pfury), I wonder more and more about the quiet and peaceful Muslims (which are not necessarily outnumbered but out-'HEARD'). It does seem that they need to do something before people like Scrap want to kill all Muslims...


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

acestro said:


> Like so many things (including some loud mouths in pfury), I wonder more and more about the quiet and peaceful Muslims (which are not necessarily outnumbered but out-'HEARD'). It does seem that they need to do something before people like Scrap want to kill all Muslims...


kind of ironic that we've really never seen a peaceful assembly of Muslims. Sure would be helpful for their public image. We need to send e-mail to the happy clerics of Islam and request this


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

acestro said:


> Like so many things (including some loud mouths in pfury), I wonder more and more about the quiet and peaceful Muslims (which are not necessarily outnumbered but out-'HEARD'). It does seem that they need to do something before people like Scrap want to kill all Muslims...


Especially when the Treaty of Hudaybiyya, agreed upon, so the story goes, when Muhammad and his followers were not yet powerful enough to take over Mecca, has over the years provided a certain standard - how widespread I don't know - for Islamic relations vis-a-vis non-Muslims throughout the world. In essence, the enemy can be deceived until Islam is capable of conquering it. This is essentially is the same method Hitler used against Great Britain and Russia. And before anyone accuses me of equating Islam and the Nazis, let the record stand I'm just pointing out a parallel in peace agreements.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I don't recall the exact quote but read something in CNN (I think) that said that in Muslim countries, non-muslim's are charged a head tax. Basically means that they are protected by Muslim's so long as the fee is paid or they convert (then there is no fee). Reminds me of the mob and protection method.


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## mr_rob_boto (Aug 31, 2003)

I remember reading about that head tax aslo...its crazy.
I just saw that they want the pope to convert to Islam??









Pope Asked to Convert to Islam


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

for the record, i think the acts of the muslims this time around are despicable. i read an article that stated that muslims attacked churches (innocent people) because of this. and that the pope's statement of feeling "deeply sorry" was not enough.

it's an outrage that the muslims are showing to the world how they react to something as little as this. and to think that turkey wants to become a part of the european union? i'm actually upset at myself for defending islam and having islam embarass me like this.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

How do you change these minds?




















> *Say Islam is Peaceful or We'll Kill You*


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

mr_rob_boto said:


> I remember reading about that head tax aslo...its crazy.
> I just saw that they want the pope to convert to Islam??
> 
> 
> ...










wow this is way past ridiculous
Pope asked to convert to Islam
19/09/2006 15:56 - (SA)

Tripoli - The elder son of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi has called on Pope Benedict XVI to convert to Islam immediately, dismissing last week's apology from the pontiff for offending Muslims.

*"If this person were really someone reasonable, he would not agree to remain at his post one minute, but would convert to Islam immediately," Mohammed Gaddafi told an awards ceremony on Monday evening for an international competition to memorise the Qur'an. * 
"We say to the pope - whether you apologise or not is irrelevant, as apologies make no difference to us."

Gaddafi junior also hit out at "those Muslims who look for comfort in the words of a non-Muslim".

*He said Muslims "should not look for charity from the infidel... but should fight Islam's enemies who attack the faith and the Prophet Muhammad". *

On Sunday, the pope said he was "deeply sorry" for the reaction to a speech he made last week in which he quoted an obscure medieval text that criticised some teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman".

The speech sparked several days of protests in Muslim countries against the leader of the world's 1.1 billion Roman Catholics.

Although the pontiff's apology was widely rejected as insufficient, anti-pope protests seemed to subside on Tuesday with the only planned event a rally by foreign theology students in the Iranian clerical capital of Qom.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Sums it up here from that link:



> "We say to the pope - whether you apologise or not is irrelevant, as apologies make no difference to us."


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

> Smash the cross - al-Qaeda
> 18/09/2006 13:38 - (SA)
> 
> Iraqis burn an effigy of Pope Benedict XVI during a demonstration in Basra against his remarks on Islam. (Nabil Al- Jurani, AP)
> ...


* Is there ANYONE who still thinks that the whole mideast should not be nuked into the stone age??*


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

Scrap5000 said:


> > Smash the cross - al-Qaeda
> > 18/09/2006 13:38 - (SA)
> >
> > Iraqis burn an effigy of Pope Benedict XVI during a demonstration in Basra against his remarks on Islam. (Nabil Al- Jurani, AP)
> ...


Me.


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## mr_rob_boto (Aug 31, 2003)

I believe there is no place on this world for people who who believe this way
We're not even on the same f*cking continent, why should they care so much about what everyone else thinks?

Sounds to me like they want to take over the world now because of what one man said, lol

*thinks about joining the army to help take care of this


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> > Smash the cross - al-Qaeda
> > 18/09/2006 13:38 - (SA)
> >
> > Iraqis burn an effigy of Pope Benedict XVI during a demonstration in Basra against his remarks on Islam. (Nabil Al- Jurani, AP)
> ...


Me.
[/quote]

a little drastic...can't get to that oil if we nuke it


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## piranha_guy_dan (Oct 4, 2004)

boo f*cking hoo.......... if they didnt act like morons he wouldnt have basically told them they are morons.

the world is too damn politically correct and they f*cking whine over the slightest thing.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

acestro said:


> boo f*cking hoo.......... if they didnt act like morons he wouldnt have basically told them they are morons.
> 
> the world is too damn politically correct and they f*cking whine over the slightest thing.


Hello, Exactly. Just in from a former US Marine: 
"These 7th century savages cut peoples heads off, blow up shopping malls and they can't take some criticism? Enough of the appeasement, some of these B-52's need to be dusted off and rein in hell on earth to these barbarians. They love Allah so much? Lets send them on their way."

Man, my one regret in life: Not joining the Marines.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Scrap5000 Posted Today, 10:25 AM
> QUOTE(acestro @ Sep 19 2006, 11:00 AM)
> 
> Like so many things (including some loud mouths in pfury), I wonder more and more about the quiet and peaceful Muslims (which are not necessarily outnumbered but out-'HEARD'). It does seem that they need to do something before people like Scrap want to kill all Muslims...
> ...


Let me put it to you this way.....1. I agree with acestro the peaceful ones are not heard but out-yelled. Pretty much what you are doing. 2. Kill all muslims? Kill all muslim children? You are beginning to sound just like those you wish to kill.

Again, for the last time AND IT IS THE LAST TIME. Refrain from using profanity or I will begin to delete the "F" words and apply censorship on profanity. Either you communicate intelligently in this thread or you will have your comments deleted.

This is a discussion on how things are misinterpreted when taken out of context.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

> Sorry, let me rephrase: Is there ANYONE without cutesy flowers in their hair and a nutsack bigger than a pea and with a residence outside of the garden of eden who still thinks that the whole mideast should not be nuked into the stone age??


You never fail in making yourself look like a bigger, more arrogant neanderthal with every post







While you sit in your mommy's house, people like me will be changing the world.


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

Scrap5000 said:


> > Sorry, let me rephrase: Is there ANYONE without cutesy flowers in their hair and a nutsack bigger than a pea and with a residence outside of the garden of eden who still thinks that the whole mideast should not be nuked into the stone age??
> 
> 
> You never fail in making yourself look like a bigger, more arrogant neanderthal with every post
> ...


sorry i respect you and all, but you're way too nice to change the world man


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## piranha_guy_dan (Oct 4, 2004)

war was easier before there was television for all the people to whine and cry about what they wouldnt even know about back in the days of the world wars. back then HUGE numbers of lives were lost but it wasnt as known as it would be today if 10 000 people died in one day.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

Scrap, I would think as somoene who loves Italy more then America, you would know the past of your country, no? Then you would also know that the Romans tried to fight there way out of every problem, and look what happened to them. First seperation. Followed by rebellions against the corupt government. Next came the last battles, and chip by chip, inferior armies sacked what was one of the greatest civilizations of all time. Does this not sound familiar?


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

piranha_guy_dan said:


> war was easier before there was television for all the people to whine and cry about what they wouldnt even know about back in the days of the world wars. back then HUGE numbers of lives were lost but it wasnt as known as it would be today if 10 000 people died in one day.


it was a different mentality back then too i guess... i mean damn how many people died on D-day?


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## piranha_guy_dan (Oct 4, 2004)

Boobah said:


> war was easier before there was television for all the people to whine and cry about what they wouldnt even know about back in the days of the world wars. back then HUGE numbers of lives were lost but it wasnt as known as it would be today if 10 000 people died in one day.


it was a different mentality back then too i guess... i mean damn how many people died on D-day?
[/quote]

exactly but now that there is cameras rolling all the time to show everyone what happening now people have something to whine about. the fact is the alqueda started this war and they have the same beliefs as muslims.......... muslims can thank alqueda for making them look bad..... suck it up buttercup


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

piranha_guy_dan said:


> war was easier before there was television for all the people to whine and cry about what they wouldnt even know about back in the days of the world wars. back then HUGE numbers of lives were lost but it wasnt as known as it would be today if 10 000 people died in one day.


True but also false. Television and internet only allows these evil men to spread thier propaganda to young, naive minds. And these are the minds you see bombing civilians.

WWI and WWII were different from todays wars aswell. The Great Wars were faught be large armies, because there was very little a civilian could do to stop an army. Today, terrorists have the means to not only kill our boys, but also the morale.

BTW, I 100% support the war in Afgahnistan, so its not like I dont think there are times when force needs to be used. But Iraq only added fuel to the fire. Did Saddam need to be removed? Yes. Was it done properly, inmy poor educated opinion







No.

I guess, my opinion is that th problems in the Middle East need to be fixed internally. Every once in a while, a region has to go through a major revolution, I think that time is upon us. We know now, that outside military intervention isnt the answer.


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

piranha_guy_dan said:


> war was easier before there was television for all the people to whine and cry about what they wouldnt even know about back in the days of the world wars. back then HUGE numbers of lives were lost but it wasnt as known as it would be today if 10 000 people died in one day.


it was a different mentality back then too i guess... i mean damn how many people died on D-day?
[/quote]

exactly but now that there is cameras rolling all the time to show everyone what happening now people have something to whine about. the fact is the alqueda started this war and they have the same beliefs as muslims.......... muslims can thank alqueda for making them look bad..... suck it up buttercup
[/quote]


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

piranha_guy_dan said:


> war was easier before there was television for all the people to whine and cry about what they wouldnt even know about back in the days of the world wars. back then HUGE numbers of lives were lost but it wasnt as known as it would be today if 10 000 people died in one day.


it was a different mentality back then too i guess... i mean damn how many people died on D-day?
[/quote]

exactly but now that there is cameras rolling all the time to show everyone what happening now people have something to whine about. the fact is the alqueda started this war and they have the same beliefs as muslims.......... muslims can thank alqueda for making them look bad..... suck it up buttercup
[/quote]

Dont forget Dan, in the days of WWI and WWII, people with such strong opinions on war such as yourself joined the army...instead of whining about people whining about it...


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> war was easier before there was television for all the people to whine and cry about what they wouldnt even know about back in the days of the world wars. back then HUGE numbers of lives were lost but it wasnt as known as it would be today if 10 000 people died in one day.


True but also false. Television and internet only allows these evil men to spread thier propaganda to young, naive minds. And these are the minds you see bombing civilians.

WWI and WWII were different from todays wars aswell. The Great Wars were faught be large armies, because there was very little a civilian could do to stop an army. *Today, terrorists have the means to not only kill our boys, but also the morale. * 
BTW, I 100% support the war in Afgahnistan, so its not like I dont think there are times when force needs to be used. But Iraq only added fuel to the fire. Did Saddam need to be removed? Yes. Was it done properly, inmy poor educated opinion







No.

I guess, my opinion is that th problems in the Middle East need to be fixed internally. Every once in a while, a region has to go through a major revolution, I think that time is upon us. We know now, that outside military intervention isnt the answer.
[/quote]

I don't know if you guys remember, but after the terrorist struck on 9/11, the united states was more united that it could have ever been. It seems our morale loss is more internal when you have people back home saying how much they hate the war that our soldiers are busting their ass for.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> > Sorry, let me rephrase: Is there ANYONE without cutesy flowers in their hair and a nutsack bigger than a pea and with a residence outside of the garden of eden who still thinks that the whole mideast should not be nuked into the stone age??
> 
> 
> You never fail in making yourself look like a bigger, more arrogant neanderthal with every post
> ...


Ha, the only things you'll be changing are the hemp diapers on your 4 illegitimate hippie children


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

bush made a good comment today at the UN conference...it was along the lines of:

"The world thinks that iraq made the middle east unstable. In reality, the middle east was already unstable."


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> I don't know if you guys remember, but after the terrorist struck on 9/11, the united states was more united that it could have ever been. *It seems our morale loss is more internal when you have people back home saying how much they hate the war that our soldiers are busting their ass for.*


That is simply history repeating itself. Same was going on during WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam (to a larger extent) and now Iraq. Remember this, election year politicians flow where they will get the most votes, to the detriment of national security and troop morale.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Scrap, I would think as somoene who loves Italy more then America, you would know the past of your country, no? Then you would also know that the Romans tried to fight there way out of every problem, and look what happened to them. First seperation. Followed by rebellions against the corupt government. Next came the last battles, and chip by chip, inferior armies sacked what was one of the greatest civilizations of all time. Does this not sound familiar?


1. I never said I love Italy more than America, don't put words in my mouth.
2. You think the fall of the Roman Empire was due to their violent nature? Re-read your history books young man.


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

Scrap5000 said:


> Scrap, I would think as somoene who loves Italy more then America, you would know the past of your country, no? Then you would also know that the Romans tried to fight there way out of every problem, and look what happened to them. First seperation. Followed by rebellions against the corupt government. Next came the last battles, and chip by chip, inferior armies sacked what was one of the greatest civilizations of all time. Does this not sound familiar?


1. I never said I love Italy more than America, don't put words in my mouth.
2. You think the fall of the Roman Empire was due to their violent nature? Re-read your history books young man.
[/quote]

yeah if anything I would sy the fall of the roman empire was due to internal separation. I mean the real "fall" of the empire happened when Roman legions had to leave Germany to fight a CIVIL war, which let the barbarians in.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

Great, lets throw the right to dissent out the window aswell.

History will not absolve those who continue to allow themsevles to give up freedoms in the name of freedom.



Scrap5000 said:


> Scrap, I would think as somoene who loves Italy more then America, you would know the past of your country, no? Then you would also know that the Romans tried to fight there way out of every problem, and look what happened to them. First seperation. Followed by rebellions against the corupt government. Next came the last battles, and chip by chip, inferior armies sacked what was one of the greatest civilizations of all time. Does this not sound familiar?


1. I never said I love Italy more than America, don't put words in my mouth.
2. You think the fall of the Roman Empire was due to their violent nature? Re-read your history books young man.
[/quote]

1. You said you will always think of yourself as an Italian before an American. I will find the post if you want, although Im sure you know which one I am talking about.

2. Yes, it was. Rome was greedy. They wanted the whole world to be Roman. Naturally, that led to the problems Boobah mentioned in his reply.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> History will not absolve those who continue to allow themsevles to give up freedoms in the name of freedom.


Yeah, and "The appeasers keep feeding the crocodile, hoping it eats them last."

You, DannyBoy, are on a slow descent right into the croc's open jaws. Get a grip before it's too late and you infect others with your fantasy.


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## piranha_guy_dan (Oct 4, 2004)

actually danny back in WW1 and WW2 there was a draft........ so even if u didnt join you went anyways. so your better for whinning about me whinning about others whinning?

we both know where you would have been during the vietnam war...... out with all the other hippies protesting and marching for free love so dont act like you are better then anyone else here


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> 1. You said you will always think of yourself as an Italian before an American. I will find the post if you want, although Im sure you know which one I am talking about.
> 
> 2. Yes, it was. Rome was greedy. They wanted the whole world to be Roman. Naturally, that led to the problems Boobah mentioned in his reply.


1. Yeah, I said I think of myself as Italian first since it was my first language & my motherland, and I also said that I don't put America down, and that I don't consider Italy better than America, that I live here, work here, pay taxes here, etc. Still not the same thing as saying I love Italy better than America. Go ahead and find the post, you won't see me saying I love Italy more.

2. Greedy you say? Who are the ones saying they want to kill everyone who does not conform to their religion? Who are the ones saying they want to rule the entire East from Asia thru Spain? The M-U-S-L-I-M-S, Danny. We are defending ourselves, not conquering lands, by killing every last one of these nut bags. Either way, it was not Rome's violence that led to their fall...it was their internal corruption that ate away at it from the inside, not to mention Christianity taking away their will to fight and conquer. If they had stayed as violent as they were, they might still be ruling today.


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

Scrap5000 said:


> 1. You said you will always think of yourself as an Italian before an American. I will find the post if you want, although Im sure you know which one I am talking about.
> 
> 2. Yes, it was. Rome was greedy. They wanted the whole world to be Roman. Naturally, that led to the problems Boobah mentioned in his reply.


1. Yeah, I said I think of myself as Italian first since it was my first language & my motherland, and I also said that I don't put America down, and that I don't consider Italy better than America, that I live here, work here, pay taxes here, etc. Still not the same thing as saying I love Italy better than America. Go ahead and find the post, you won't see me saying I love Italy more.

2. Greedy you say? Who are the ones saying they want to kill everyone who does not conform to their religion? Who are the ones saying they want to rule the entire East from Asia thru Spain? The M-U-S-L-I-M-S, Danny. We are defending ourselves, not conquering lands, by killing every last one of these nut bags. Either way, it was not Rome's violence that led to their fall...it was their internal corruption that ate away at it from the inside, not to mention Christianity taking away their will to fight and conquer. If they had stayed as violent as they were, they might still be ruling today.
[/quote]

yeah the only difference is the barbarians didn't give a crap about the Roman's feelings l


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

piranha_guy_dan said:


> actually danny back in WW1 and WW2 there was a draft........ so even if u didnt join you went anyways. so your better for whinning about me whinning about others whinning?
> 
> we both know where you would have been during the vietnam war...... out with all the other hippies protesting and marching for free love so dont act like you are better then anyone else here


Better then you? Why do you always say that. Sorry if it comes off like that, I dont think Im better then anyone..except Sens and Habs fans of course...

Scrap, I agree that radical muslims are the biggest threat to our way of living right now in the world. But not all Muslims are radical, just as not all Christians support thier terrible history, not all Hindus support the oppression of Tibetan Buddhism..etc.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

Boobah said:


> yeah the only difference is the barbarians didn't give a crap about the Roman's feelings l


Wait, do you mean the romans didn't care about the barbarians' feelings? I thin that makes more sense, right? 'Cause I see Americans & Canadians like Danny everyday who don't want to offend the poor savages' by calling them "evil" or...GOD FORBID...fight them to defend our lives...

What the hell is wrong with people in the world today?? Our troops get beheaded, our buildings leveled to the ground with 3,000 innocent people in them, and people like DannyBoy don't want to hurt any of the muslims' feelings...what kind of garbage are you feeding your brains?

Insanity, plain & simple.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

Scrap5000 said:


> 2. Greedy you say? Who are the ones saying they want to kill everyone who does not conform to their religion? Who are the ones saying they want to rule the entire East from Asia thru Spain? The M-U-S-L-I-M-S, Danny. We are defending ourselves, not conquering lands, by killing every last one of these nut bags. Either way, it was not Rome's violence that led to their fall...it was their internal corruption that ate away at it from the inside, not to mention Christianity taking away their will to fight and conquer. If they had stayed as violent as they were, they might still be ruling today.


you may be right about the islamic resurgence and desire to spread control ect. however we are greedy, back in teh roma times they took complete control over lands and people to control them, now all we need is economic and political control we dont have to invade (but we did in iraq) to spread our influence and control..

we are trying to impose our will on countries by spreading democracy and now we are no better then the communist in the cold war and ironically similar, the cold war russia tried to take afganistan until it bleed them dry and they retreated creatign the power vacume that ultimately lead to the taliban, now we are tehre trying to impose our will on them and now in iraq as well.. funny how things work out..

but back to the point, much like the romans we are invovled on multi front battles, accumulating massive debt and loosing allies so are we greedy are we defending our self? i would say ations like invading iraq under false pretense is more of an offensive action (bothing meanings of ofensive)..

and going in every thread and claiming the need to nuke all muslims is no better then the message that you claim the muslims are spreading of atttempting to achive world domination..

oh and lets not forget a big part of the romans was of course the chatolic churchs desire to squash other religons..


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

Insanity?

You are the one wanting to nuke an entire race to extinction.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Scrap, I agree that radical muslims are the biggest threat to our way of living right now in the world. But not all Muslims are radical, just as not all Christians support thier terrible history, not all Hindus support the oppression of Tibetan Buddhism..etc.


Danny, what you don't realize is that A LOT of muslims support these ideas. They include the innocent looking cab driver, the guy selling you a newspaper, your friendly neighbor. I live in NYC, I deal with a lot of muslims, and many have openly, audaciously, stated their support of Al Quaeda, Bin Laden and extremist, violent ideology to my face. To say that I'm shocked everytime is an understatement.

And then I hear people like you tell me that not all muslims feel that way. And I tell you: Most of them do. And they are just as much of a threat as bona fide members of Al Queda. Because of their mental, emotional, and theological support spreads their power and reach.

And people like you who live in a fantasy do nothing to put it in check. People like you make it harder for the rest of the world to realize what is really going on in the minds of these people.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

I disagree. But stating why would be redundant, so I wont bother.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Insanity?
> 
> You are the one wanting to nuke an entire race to extinction.


Not a race. A threat. Period.

And don't forget: They wanted us dead, and actually killed 3,000 of my fellow New Yorkers, way before I felt they should be nuked.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Wow, this thread has really helped me realize the ignorance that exists in Islam AND in the West.

oh wait.

I already knew that.



Scrap5000 said:


> Insanity?
> 
> You are the one wanting to nuke an entire race to extinction.


Not a race. A threat. Period.

And don't forget: They wanted us dead, and actually killed 3,000 of my fellow New Yorkers, way before I felt they should be nuked.
[/quote]

You set yourself up you know....

Ask yourself if we've really been going after the right people that did that...

uh oh, I see political arguments starting to seep in.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

acestro said:


> You set yourself up you know....
> 
> Ask yourself if we've really been going after the right people that did that...
> 
> uh oh, I see political arguments starting to seep in.


No I didn't...people will always try to put words in other peoples' mouths and twist things around when they run out of true things to argue about, and all is needed is to point back to reality.

I really feel that yes, we have. That entire region of the world harbors, supports, trains, and spreads terrorism, period. You can't kill a starfish by chopping off one arm. And if the hippies and liberal govt's of this world helped instead of hurt then the job would have been finished a long time ago, or at least progressing at a much better pace than it has.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

How have the "hippies" and "liberal gov'ts" of this world hurt the job? Just because Canada doesnt feel that a World War is the best option, doesnt mean were "hurting" you guys. You started this war, its your responsibility to fight it, not ours. Were busy fighting a real threat in Afghanistan.

No one is stopping you from fighting. You were cocky enough to go to war without the worlds help, and now that things are going right, you want us to sweep in and help?

Maybe I am interpreting your post incorrectly, but thats what comes to mind when I read it.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

diddye said:


> bush made a good comment today at the UN conference...it was along the lines of:
> 
> "The world thinks that iraq made the middle east unstable. In reality, the middle east was already unstable."


Iraq is more unstable now and the death toll is higher. They were formally ruled by a secular leader; now they are ruled by a Shiite theocracy fighting a militant Sunni insurgency. They came out in droves last month chanting death to America and Israel. They burned effigies of the Pope yesterday in Basra. Iraq's Prime Minister just met with the Iranian Hitler. Bush is doing anything to save face, just as Johnson attempted to do during Vietnam. We're relying on a trained Iraqi force - much like we relied on a trained S. Vietnamese force - as an indicator as to when to leave. We are fighting an enemy disguised among the civilian population, just as in Vietnam. When Uranium in Niger was exposed as a fraud, as was the 2nd Gulf of Tonkin incident, the president relied on "democracy in the Middle east to fight radical Islam as a justification, just as Johnson relied on democracy in Vietnam tp fight Communism. It's all a fraud.

Here is a good start to countering terrorism. 
1)annex the OPEC oil fields, thus cutting off a major source of terrorist funding
2)Aggressively bomb civilian targets in order to establish ruthless force as the penalty for Jihad.
3) Cut off all foreign funding for Mosques in Non-Muslim countries.
4) Allow Israel to annihilate Hezbollah.
5) Destroy Terhan.
6) Declare the War Powers Act in this country in order to root out enemy within our own borders, deporting all open supporters of militant Islam.
7) Tell France to shut the Hell up
Is this too Harsh?


----------



## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Here is a good start to countering terrorism.
> 1)annex the OPEC oil fields, thus cutting off a major source of terrorist funding
> 2)Aggressively bomb civilian targets in order to establish ruthless force as the penalty for Jihad.
> 3) Cut off all foreign funding for Mosques in Non-Muslim countries.
> ...


Nope, I love it, except maybe point 2


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Scrap, going overboard as usual. Dannyboy is entitled to his opinion dude, relax and be civil. Again, it's a fish hobbyist site for crying out loud.

Oh,

wait,

I just heard the U.N. is accepting comments from piranha-fury.....



Fargo said:


> We're relying on a trained Iraqi force - much like we relied on a trained S. Vietnamese force - as an indicator as to when to leave. We are fighting an enemy disguised among the civilian population, just as in Vietnam.


This reminds me of a feeling I get about how Iraq could end up. People trying to get on our helicopters as we get the hell out of there?...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> QUOTE(Fargo @ Sep 19 2006, 02:43 PM)
> 
> We're relying on a trained Iraqi force - much like we relied on a trained S. Vietnamese force - as an indicator as to when to leave. We are fighting an enemy disguised among the civilian population, *just as in Vietnam.*


Written like something one that was there I suppose?


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Scrap5000 said:


> And furthermore, the US wasn't COCKY ENOUGH...we were BRAVE ENOUGH..to defend the world's freedom and make it a safer place. And rather than a thank you, we get criticized by snot nosed little kids who don't understand nor appreciate the efforts the US and GB have put forth for the security of the rest of the free world.
> 
> Just wrap yourself in a Syrian flag and buy a koran already, and stop beating around the bush.


I totally disagree.

The US was cocky with trust for the current adminstration and now that events in Iraq have turned worse, public support has dropped. Mix that with misinformation that were set fourth by many countries (including the US) to gain public support to invade, people have had enough.

That aside, the post war operation wasn't fully thought out, the administration was cocky with a declaration of a "Win". The administration is still to PC and nothing more than a pig sty exists in Iraq. If real freedom and democracy was at stake, enforcement of despotism martial law in Iraq would have been in affect.

Tell Iran to pursue nuclear arms if they want, because they dont have time to really aquire them, because within 5 years Tehran is screwed.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> User.Tell Iran to pursue nuclear arms if they want, because they dont have time to really aquire them, because within 5 years Tehran is screwed.


Actually we ARE ALL SCREWED.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> oh and lets not forget a big part of the romans was of course the chatolic churchs desire to squash other religons..


There was a tyrannical Caesar ..bah, can't remember his name.. anyway, he converted to Christianity, and had lots of power and fame, and he did some horrible things in the name of the faith.
This has happened so many times..
There was a famine of the word back then. When you are not discipled, and you do not study, and pray with a humble heart, or if you do not make a solid commitment to follow Jesus, you will not be a very good Christian at all.
It is tough when everything is flowing properly even.. That stuff is a stain in the history of Christianity, that spirit filled Christians reject as their true bretheren


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## User (May 31, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > User.Tell Iran to pursue nuclear arms if they want, because they dont have time to really aquire them, because within 5 years Tehran is screwed.
> 
> 
> Actually we ARE ALL SCREWED.


Meh, maybe - I fully don't believe that though.

United States and the *entire* west needs unity. The *entire* "west" must *accept* Israels existence, because its destruction is the keystone to the majority of extremism.

I'm secular, hippie, "tree hugger", leftist, whatever word you prefer but during this timeframe of islamo terror i'm not in a popularity contest. If people from my social side doesn't respect that, than its just too damn bad.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2006)

Scrap, is it impossible for you to reply without a personal attack? Does it make you feel like you have some kind of "upperhand"?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> DannyBoy17 Posted Today, 06:32 PM
> Scrap, is it impossible for you to reply without a personal attack? Does it make you feel like you have some kind of "upperhand"?


Actually he's making my point, the US against THEM mentality. The same mentality that is feeding this entire sad event.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > DannyBoy17 Posted Today, 06:32 PM
> > Scrap, is it impossible for you to reply without a personal attack? Does it make you feel like you have some kind of "upperhand"?
> 
> 
> Actually he's making my point, the US against THEM mentality. The same mentality that is feeding this entire sad event.


...



> Just wrap yourself in a Syrian flag and buy a koran already, and stop beating around the bush.


Hes basically trying to tell me that he thinks Im a supporter of terrorists. I consider that a personal attack.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Hes basically trying to tell me that he thinks Im a supporter of terrorists. I consider that a personal attack.


Naaa, that's not what he is saying. He's saying you are looking the other way. By doing that you are supporting terrorists. Again, makes my point.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Hes basically trying to tell me that he thinks Im a supporter of terrorists. I consider that a personal attack.


He's saying that you're an _enabler_.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > Hes basically trying to tell me that he thinks Im a supporter of terrorists. I consider that a personal attack.
> 
> 
> Naaa, that's not what he is saying. He's saying you are looking the other way. By doing that you are supporting terrorists. Again, makes my point.


Wait Frank. You honestly think that by saying I DO NOT agree with "nuking" an entire region populated by millions of people, I am supporting terrorist?

And by calling standing up for the millions of innocent people who's heads are being put on the chopping block for no other reason then because they read some religious text, that I am supporting terrorist.

By realizing, following and fighting for the rights given to the people of this world by the UN...whats the point.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> > Hes basically trying to tell me that he thinks Im a supporter of terrorists. I consider that a personal attack.
> 
> 
> Naaa, that's not what he is saying. He's saying you are looking the other way. By doing that you are supporting terrorists. Again, makes my point.


Wait Frank. You honestly think that by saying I DO NOT agree with "nuking" an entire region populated by millions of people, I am supporting terrorist?

And by calling standing up for the millions of innocent people who's heads are being put on the chopping block for no other reason then because they read some religious text, that I am supporting terrorist.

*By realizing, following and fighting for the rights given to the people of this world by the UN*...whats the point.
[/quote]

I was about to agree with your entire post until I read the last sentence. Of all the messages I've read on P-Fury, that one sentence is the only one to ever make me physically sick.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> User Posted Today, 08:32 PM
> QUOTE(DannyBoy17 @ Sep 20 2006, 02:58 AM)
> 
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Sep 19 2006, 10:27 PM)
> ...


Here we go again. Never said pro or con. Go back and read what I wrote. Then when you finish with that, read my signature quote.











> By realizing, following and fighting for the rights given to the people of this world by the UN...whats the point.


What book is that in?


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Referring back to some og the brilliant posts made a few pages back, it's always to see those people that say that we should nuke terrorists and everything surrounding them. "I hate those terrorists scumbags that cut our soldiers geads off: let's go and cut their heads off".
Even more fun are those that claim that "we" sustained an unprovoked attack (yeah, right), and afterwards went to war and made the world a better place. It's so typical that the more islamophobic and pro-War on Terror people are, the more uneducated, ignorant, spineless and too f'n chickenshit to accept own accountability and responsibility they appear to be (some very fine specimen in this very topic). Read a Book, for Christ's sake.
Always bitching about "Terrorists this, terrorists that







", but at the same time denying, condoning, supporting or even wishing for blood shed and killings _we_ the West are responsible for. Yes, there is no justification whatsoever for committing terrorist acts, but that is something that applies to both sides, btw - and don't give me crap lies like 'we do not deliberately go for civilian targets' - cluster bombs, phosphorous bombs, innocent people being detained for years: there's plenty more.
Since half-way through the last century, he West has gotten blood by the tanker loads, including Muslim blood, on its hands (to name just a few conflict zones we have our part in, or are even directly responsible for: Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya). Being on the death list of terrorists is no excuse to lower yourself to their level (especially when certain world leaders keep preaching about, thus effectively raping and abusing those things we hold so dear: things like democracy, human rights, freedom, morals and values). If we refuse to accept our own accountability and responsibility, and refuse to value our own ethics, morals and values, this issue won't ever be solved! Why? Because we can continue the blaming game and point fingers at each other, while at the same time being too indoctrinated, proud or just plan stupid or coward to look into the mirror and accept that we are part of the solution as well as the problem.
In this present-day conflict, "black and white"-thinking, "us vs. them"-thinking, has solved _nothing_ - I think Bush and his overseas ass kisser friends have been in charge for long enough to see that that is not leftist propaganda, but the bitter reality (Afghanistan is a mess, Iraq is an even bigger mess, the gap between east and west is bigger than ever before, the world is more insecure than ever before in this conflict - and then those douche bags politicians have the nerve to expect applause). Personally, I'm being sick of being made accomplice of, and of seeing my own country being made accountable for all those numberous disgusting acts committed by the US, which of course first categorically denies it (but these days denying means it will be admitted in the distant future), then admits it, and then defends and tries to justify it. One thing is certain, though: it does not happen in my name! (I loathe terrorists as much as those terrorists fighting terrorists in my name).

Muslims, or rather the extremist movements, can - rightfully - be blamed of many things, and can be regarded as one of the main obstacles for a lasting solution. But so are the radicals in the West, who are as much blessed with tunnel vision, and as much only adding to the problem as those they loathe so much.

Anyways, I'm sure that by having said this, in the eyes of some I'll be a terrorist sympathizer that should emigrate to Iran, buy a Qu'ran and beat up my wife on a daily basis - I couldn't care less. I'm not concerned by verbal attacks by ignorant hypocrites that for a change should read a book instead of echoing all the bullshit they see on the news and hear from their politicians. They're not even worth my attention...


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2006)

Judazzz said:


> Referring back to some og the brilliant posts made a few pages back, it's always to see those people that say that we should nuke terrorists and everything surrounding them. "I hate those terrorists scumbags that cut our soldiers geads off: let's go and cut their heads off".
> Even more fun are those that claim that "we" sustained an unprovoked attack (yeah, right), and afterwards went to war and made the world a better place. It's so typical that the more islamophobic and pro-War on Terror people are, the more uneducated, ignorant, spineless and too f'n chickenshit to accept own accountability and responsibility they appear to be (some very fine specimen in this very topic). Read a Book, for Christ's sake.
> Always bitching about "Terrorists this, terrorists that
> 
> ...


I want to be like Judazzz some day


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

I heard on the radio that many muslims wont accept the popes apology and some are demanding that the only accetpable apology is for him to convert to islam! ahahhaa....trying to find a link. But if thats true, man....it only makes muslims look more ignorant.

Well heres one link:

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_n...06092071921.xml


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> DannyBoy17 Posted Today, 10:11 AM ....I want to be like Judazzz some day


You're gonna have to do a lot of drinking and smokin' to get there.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > DannyBoy17 Posted Today, 10:11 AM ....I want to be like Judazzz some day
> 
> 
> You're gonna have to do a lot of drinking and smokin' to get there.:rasp:


My feet hurt just thinkin about the wooden shoes


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

After listening to Chavez (Venezuela), Ama HOWEVER YOU SPELL IT, and Bush speak at the UN, its like Pin The Tail On The Donkey. Or more like the pots calling the kettles black. Politics..........the method used to Build and/or Destroy civilizations.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

Judazzz said:


> Referring back to some og the brilliant posts made a few pages back, it's always to see those people that say that we should nuke terrorists and everything surrounding them. "I hate those terrorists scumbags that cut our soldiers geads off: let's go and cut their heads off".
> Even more fun are those that claim that "we" sustained an unprovoked attack (yeah, right), and afterwards went to war and made the world a better place. It's so typical that the more islamophobic and pro-War on Terror people are, the more uneducated, ignorant, spineless and too f'n chickenshit to accept own accountability and responsibility they appear to be (some very fine specimen in this very topic). Read a Book, for Christ's sake.
> Always bitching about "Terrorists this, terrorists that
> 
> ...


Amazing how a lot of Europeans and Canadians somehow feel that the west is responsible for the woes of that region, so therefore we deserve to be in the crosshairs of these muslim extremists.

Let me ask you this: Do you really feel that any single one of the 3,000 people that died in the towers on 9/11 had anything to do with the woes of that region?

They declared war on us civilians, they drew first blood, and they have plenty of supporters. And now they are turning it into a b.s. whole-out holy war to win even more support.

And yet we, the civilians of the west, who carry a briefcase and go to work behind a desk and pray to Jesus on Sunday are responsible for the bloodshed in that part of the world since 79 AD.

Yeah, ok.

I remember the chronic being good in Amsterdam, but I don't remember hallucinating from it.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Judazzz @ Sep 20 2006, 06:23 AM...Anyways, I'm sure that by having said this, in the eyes of some I'll be a terrorist sympathizer that should emigrate to Iran, buy a Qu'ran and beat up my wife on a daily basis - I couldn't care less.


Makes ME wonder why the U.S. saved their (Dutch) arses vis a vis WWII.







Oh yeah, forgot, Freedom to include SPEECH.











> Scrap5000 Posted Today, 01:08 PM ...*Amazing how a lot of Europeans and Canadians somehow feel that the west is responsible for the woes of that region, so therefore we deserve to be in the crosshairs of these muslim extremists. *
> 
> Let me ask you this: Do you really feel that any single one of the 3,000 people that died in the towers on 9/11 had anything to do with the woes of that region?
> 
> ...


Did you REALLY believe they would blame their on woes on their OWN GOVERNMENT? Squirrely you jest.








If it were up to me, I'd get rid of all the heads of states and LIVE and LET LIVE


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

hastatus said:


> Makes ME wonder why the U.S. saved their (Dutch) arses vis a vis WWII.:laugh: Oh yeah, forgot, Freedom to include SPEECH.


Yeah, that's always the case...no good deed goes unpunished nor appreciated. The bad is always denounced, the good always ignored & forgotten. No matter how good or hard it was to do it.


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## Omnius (Mar 20, 2006)

While the west has made some SERIOUS blunders in the past it is NOT responcible for the thoughts and feelings of Muslims who behave in an extremeist way. If the west were to behave like Muslims we would start whining about the crimes committed by the muslim forces during the crusades. While covering up the crimes on our side, yet the christians or westerners have admitted their errors and moved on while the muslims still live in the 13th century. Theire is NO reasoning with these people. *Make the pope covert to Islam. What would happen if Bush said that the holiest Muslim schollar Imam or whatever MUST convert to Catholicism? There would be mass protests but are the cathlics attacking muslims over this NO.* Lets wake up people before a nuclear bomb goes off in a western country over something trivial.


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## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

if they arent mature enough to handle a cartoon or what the pope quotes, why should we assume they are mature or responsible enough to handle Democracy... it needs to be ended (by any means necessary) and thats all there is to it


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

Finally, some more voices of wisdom...I was losing hope of finding any sign of intelligence left on this site.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Scrap5000 Posted Today, 02:30 PM
> Finally, some more voices of wisdom...I was losing hope of finding any sign of intelligence left on this site.


Hmm, anybody for lenchin' witches? Oops wrong century for intelligence.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

Judazzz said:


> Referring back to some og the brilliant posts made a few pages back, it's always to see those people that say that we should nuke terrorists and everything surrounding them. "I hate those terrorists scumbags that cut our soldiers geads off: let's go and cut their heads off".
> Even more fun are those that claim that "we" sustained an unprovoked attack (yeah, right), and afterwards went to war and made the world a better place. It's so typical that the more islamophobic and pro-War on Terror people are, the more uneducated, ignorant, spineless and too f'n chickenshit to accept own accountability and responsibility they appear to be (some very fine specimen in this very topic). Read a Book, for Christ's sake.
> Always bitching about "Terrorists this, terrorists that
> 
> ...


a lot of rhetoric there, that's for sure. you're missing some important facts. like how we "provoked" muslim extremists. what book should i read to find that out? and on one hand, we're oppressing people across the world fighting illegal wars and on the other hand the current administration is a bunch of "foreign asskisssers". which side of the fence are you on on that one? and since the world is so much more insecure now, why don't you tell me the last terror attack that killed 3,000 people?


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

mdrs said:


> a lot of rhetoric there, that's for sure. you're missing some important facts. like how we "provoked" muslim extremists. what book should i read to find that out? and on one hand, we're oppressing people across the world fighting illegal wars and on the other hand the current administration is a bunch of "foreign asskisssers". which side of the fence are you on on that one? and since the world is so much more insecure now, why don't you tell me the last terror attack that killed 3,000 people?


And the crowd with clear minds goes wild!


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2006)

Scrap5000 said:


> a lot of rhetoric there, that's for sure. you're missing some important facts. like how we "provoked" muslim extremists. what book should i read to find that out? and on one hand, we're oppressing people across the world fighting illegal wars and on the other hand the current administration is a bunch of "foreign asskisssers". which side of the fence are you on on that one? and since the world is so much more insecure now, why don't you tell me the last terror attack that killed 3,000 people?


And the crowd with clear minds goes wild!




































[/quote]

Dude youre just a cheerleader with a big mouth in this thread. All youve contributed is "nuke them lol."


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

/continues to watch thread just like a kid watching a train wreck...


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

diddye said:


> Make the pope covert to Islam. What would happen if Bush said that the holiest Muslim schollar Imam or whatever MUST convert to Catholicism? There would be mass protests but are the cathlics attacking muslims over this NO.[/b] Lets wake up people before a nuclear bomb goes off in a western country over something trivial.


Excellent post.


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## Enriqo_Suavez (Mar 31, 2004)

acestro said:


> /continues to watch thread just like a kid watching a train wreck...


Haha, that's what I've been doing all along. I used to LOVE contributing in these threads, then I realized how much of an energy drain it was. I can contribute so much more constructive energy to my engineering studies and job search. Its only a waste of time for me to reiterate the same points and truths over and over - If someone is honestly naive enough (or has smoked enough drugs or drinks) that they BELEIVE that the current world islamic culture (Not necessarily the religion itself, but the way it is being taught and the way they these people believe in it) is not a severe threat to the rest of the world, there is no amount of internet arguing (or bitching) that will convince them otherwise. There is no amount of diplomacy that will change the situation, only A) Forceful annialiation of the entire culture of hate or B) Internal change will be able to stop it. Unfortunately, the latter does not look like its going to happen anytime soon. And without complete annilation of the culture, any slight destruction will only breed MORE hate, polarizing those who are currently moderates.

It blows my mind that there are actually those out there who BELIEVE some of the rhetoric and lies out there - those that actually BELEIVE Israeli concessions are needed or will help, those that beleive that Israel is an aggressor, those that beleive that they show complete lack of constraint when CONSTRAINT has been ALL THEY HAVE SHOWN since their inception... It blows my mind that there are people who beleive that we can REASON with islamic extremists... Who beleive that if we give an inch they won't demand a mile. I mean HONESTLY, how can you take those who stand in front of the UN and call the United States 'DEVILS' SERIOUSLY?!?!? What a JOKE, they are like children. They CANNOT be reasoned with, diplomacy WILL NOT WORK. What alternatives do you give us? Please, if we are doing such a TERRIBLE job in our world affairs, please give an alternative! There are those who beleive that we can just 'stay out of their business' and keep to ourselves. It is these same countries who 1) have little or no world influence, be it economic, political, etc., and 2) Have suffered from the results of such a foreign policy, and have quickly forgotten where it landed them.

Not to pick on canada, and this is NOT a USvCA argument, but it is easy to backseat drive when you are immune to retribution due to geographic location. It is merely a FACT that you require little to no military power - were anything to happen to you, we would be the first ones on the scene. You can say or do whatever you want without fear. 
Netherlands... where do I start? You are not a world power... Your political actions do not translate into huge real world problems, issues, etc... It's easy to take on a belief that is incompatible with real world politics when it doesn't result in REAL effects for you. You don't have to stay vigilant and take a very articulated course of action because of an entire culture of barians isn't ready to kill you at a moments notice.

Honestly, that part of the world is a COMPLETE CLUSTER f*ck, and I wish we could just let them resolve their own problems (burn themselves out on their own barbarism and violence). Unfortunately, they have OIL, which is the ONLY REASON they are world players. If it were not for oil, their crazy asses would not get any more attention than the tribes of Africa (Meaning no attention from the world community whatsoever). Furthermore, we live in a global age where we cannot afford to merely mind our own damn business.... Where there are WMDs which allow SMALL groups to affect LARGE numbers of people. In the past, this wasn't possible. And there are those out there who beleive that it is OUR FAULT for meddling in world affairs.... HELLO!!, we live in a global age where this is UNAVOIDABLE, and where some beleive our 'meddling' is the root of the problem, they fail to see that our 'meddling' is why we remain on top.

Most of these problems are coming from peons, peasants, shithead little farmers and nobodies who don't mean sh*t to the world. It is in their blood to HATE america... It is an entire CULTURE of hate. The problem is that it has begun to extend beyond that, and has encroached into world affairs.

Christ, I have done just what I didn't want to do...

Have fun with this argument ladies, I know my little rant will change no minds, so know your rebuttal will do nothing to dissuade me from the opinion that you are ignorant to the workings of how the real world works. You can all have your opinions - but know that they mean nothing, and will do nothing to change the world. Almost always, the only message that ever gets heard is that of violence. I think you will find that to be true throughout history. Something big is going to happen in the world, my guess is within the next 10 years. If you want a real mindfuck, pick up "The Evolution of War: The Fourth Generation"


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

Enriqo_Suavez said:


> * I used to LOVE contributing in these threads, then I realized how much of an energy drain it was. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow! You must be wiped out.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

While your at it........do one on the U.S. covering the Native Indians, Mexico, etc., etc, ect. Don't leave out the broken treaties either.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

hastatus said:


> While your at it........do one on the U.S. covering the Native Indians, Mexico, etc., etc, ect. Don't leave out the broken treaties either.


The comparison is not relevant. Every nation establishes its' borders by sujugating and neutralizing others. That's how nations are formed, and no one's disputing that. The issue is whether the West is responsible for the acts of militant Islam. In the case of the American Indians and the Mexicans, any honest American will admit that the land was taken from them and the responsibility lies with no one but the takers. And the poor Mexicans were exterminating Indians before they lost the American Southewest. Every country is carved out of conquest. All borders are parameters of peace time established by previous wars.

In the case of Islam we have something that transcends borders, because the only viable border is a global Islamic state in submission to Allah. In this context, citing every injustice performed in the past - be it by the British, French, Americans, South Africans, Russians, etc. - does little good in neutralizing the greatest threat to global peace: non-stop violent Jihad in the name of religion. It's like when a little kid gets caught beating another kid, so he points to someone else and says, "well he did it too." That doesn't absolve the crime. We have to concentrate on the now and realize what the imminent threat is and not what Christians did wrong. Otherwise we'll lose a city when one of these nut-cases gets some nukes, and we'll still be wondering what we did so wrong to deserve it.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> The comparison is not relevant. _Every nation establishes its' borders by sujugating and neutralizing others. That's how nations are formed, and no one's disputing that._ The issue is whether the West is responsible for the acts of militant Islam. In the case of the American Indians and the Mexicans, any honest American will admit that the land was taken from them and the responsibility lies with no one but the takers. And the poor Mexicans were exterminating Indians before they lost the American Southewest. Every country is carved out of conquest. All borders are parameters of peace time established by previous wars.


The point is relevant, unless your head is buried in the sand. That's why people in other countries see Americans _as arrogant_.....oh how easily we dismiss our own violent history.

Anyone else care to expend the time to explore American history and how Indians were treated? Even Slavery? Or how Thomas Jefferson was the author of many of these "land deals" that stole acreage from Native Americans? What you are not getting is, the world (Islam) is well aware of the American History, otherwise they wouldn't keep tossing it into our faces. Is it justification to be doing what Islam is doing to innocents? Absolutely not. No more than it was for American soldiers to have killed 1,000's of defenseless women or children or the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. War is hell. The victors are the one's that write history in their favor, until the truth squeezes itself out.

The gulf of tonkin was a lie as was the weapons of mass destruction.


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## WhiteLineRacer (Jul 13, 2004)

The sad truth is that one hell of a lot of muslims believe that if you aren't a follower of Islam then you are a dog or should be dead.

A religious war of epic scale may well be on it's way, and it's going to be Islam against anyone else non muslim. The problem is most "everyone else" really don't care about Islam or even religion but in the Muslim nutters eyes as you are not a follower of islam then you are an enemy like it or not.

At the moment we have a very PC war going on, I am in doubt that if they push too far the gloves will come off. Then we will see "old style" warfare. The kind where you go in guns blazing untill you own that country. If that happens then a lot of innocent Muslims will become victims of their own religious fanatics.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Dude youre just a cheerleader with a big mouth in this thread. All youve contributed is "nuke them lol."


Are you deranged? You really show your age when you isolate a pat on the back and use it as suport that I've contributed nothing else. I'll let my past posts in this thread speak for themselves as proof of my contributions, and won't mention how all you do is try to throw flowers at the muslims' feet.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

Faro, Enriqo_Suavez, WhiteLineRacer, all EXCELLENT posts! The cream always rises to the top, and about time some sanity and rational thought on the true threat arrived to this thread.

Let me add one event I saw on the History Channel the other night to the history, tho: How the US paid 2 million dollars back in the late 1700's / early 1800's to the muslim GOVERNMENT pirates of Tripoli who kept kidnapping American sailors for ransom. 2 million dollars back then was more than the entire defense budget of the country!! It led the U.S. Marines to attack Tripoli with a tiny force, an insane and brave and almost suicide move that worked, and was the first time the US Flag ever flew over foreign soil, and scared the hell out of the muslim govt and led to the peace signing and cessation of kidnapping Americans. And is why you hear the line "...to the shores of Tripoli"
Hoo-Rah!! God Bless America and the Marines!

These people cannot be reasoned with, and those who think that they can cannot be reasoned with either, it's just amazing.

They were founded in violence, just like a lot of other cultures, but the difference is that they continue to cling to an ideology that is pure insanity in this day and age. They need to be dealt with swiftly and without remorse, without hesitation.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

> The point is relevant, unless your head is buried in the sand. That's why people in other countries see Americans _as arrogant_.....oh how easily we dismiss our own violent history.
> 
> Anyone else care to expend the time to explore American history and how Indians were treated? Even Slavery? Or how Thomas Jefferson was the author of many of these "land deals" that stole acreage from Native Americans? What you are not getting is, the world (Islam) is well aware of the American History, otherwise they wouldn't keep tossing it into our faces. Is it justification to be doing what Islam is doing to innocents? Absolutely not. No more than it was for American soldiers to have killed 1,000's of defenseless women or children or the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. War is hell. The victors are the one's that write history in their favor, until the truth squeezes itself out.
> 
> The gulf of tonkin was a lie as was the weapons of mass destruction.


stole the land? i love that. on one hand, the US steals land from the noble indian and on the other hand INDIANS DON'T BELIEVE IN LAND OWNERSHIP. they sure do now but oh HO you can't steal from someone who doesn't believe that they OWN what you're taking. and when do muslims "toss it in our faces"? i was under the impression that militants are upset about land in PALESTINE. trust me when we went into iraq or afghanistan or when we talk about iran other countries don't say those damn people killed the noble wonderful indians.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I think the point is....

wait...

I forgot that I'm a voyeur this time...

continue...

/ sees Judazzz and Enriqo_Suavez make up for lost posts!!!

/spelled sees backwards









btw, we may have taken land from those that didn't believe in land ownership, but we also gave them blankets that were infected with smallpox...

ah crap


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

acestro said:


> I think the point is....
> 
> wait...
> 
> ...


We are talking about the here & now, and the tomorrow. Who has died has died, that aint changin. We're talking about what to do about the current threat.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Scrap5000 Posted Today, 08:18 AM ...We are talking about the here & now, and the tomorrow. Who has died has died, that aint changin. We're talking about what to do about the current threat


That's good. The past is brought up about the Muslims and that justifies your views. I bring up the U.S. role and history, that's the past.







Let me ask you this, have you EVER been in a war? Besides arm chairing it?



> stole the land? i love that. on one hand, the US steals land from the noble indian and on the other hand INDIANS DON'T BELIEVE IN LAND OWNERSHIP. *they sure do now* but oh HO you can't steal from someone who doesn't believe that they OWN what you're taking. and when do muslims "toss it in our faces"? i was under the impression that militants are upset about land in PALESTINE. trust me when we went into iraq or afghanistan or when we talk about iran other countries don't say those damn people killed the noble wonderful indians.


Of course they do. We taught them that the almighty dollar is more important than sharing and brotherhood. The acknowledged and supported war was in Afghanistan NOT Iraq. Iraq remains a lie.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Here's some history for you. Let's be FAIR and Balanced. I highlited some parts. This is just a quick post on history. But gives everyone the general idea how the U.S. handles people.



> Indigenous peoples
> 
> Chief Quanah Parker.Main article: Native Americans in the United States
> The Native Americans of the United States (also known as Indians or American Indians, among others), are an ethnic group who have populated the land that is today the United States since at least 9,000 B.C., more than one hundred centuries before the arrival of European settlers. As in other countries throughout the Western Hemisphere, the impact of European colonization of the Americas changed the lives and cultures of the Native Americans. *In the 15th to 19th century, their populations were ravaged by displacement, disease, warfare with the Europeans, and enslavement.*
> ...


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

hastatus said:


> We are talking about the here & now, and the tomorrow. Who has died has died, that aint changin. We're talking about what to do about the current threat.


That's all that matters right now as far as national security goes. Can you imagine having a beer with a violent Jihadist in a bar and saying, "I really feel your pain over what America did to the blacks, Mexicans, and Indians."


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Wow, what do you know? Chavez just brought up the very same thing I just wrote about in Harlem. Amazing.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

The past is always relevant and important. History is often written by the victors, however, and is often rewritten by those that want to use history to make their point.

...who's side am I arguing?


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2006)




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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> acestro Posted Today, 09:42 AM
> The past is always relevant and important. History is often written by the victors, however, and is often rewritten by those that want to use history to make their point.
> 
> *...who's side am I arguing? *


Ummm the liberal side?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Ah, that's right, because I'm a scientist









/thinks p-fury stands for "political"-fury


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Don't feel bad, I'm the windbag.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I have no idea what's going on.

:laugh:


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> acestro Posted Today, 09:53 AM
> 
> I have no idea what's going on.


What WAS THE TOPIC?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

"Am I missing something?"

and I think my answer is best:

"I have no idea what's going on"


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> acestro Posted Today, 09:57 AM
> "Am I missing something?"
> 
> and I think my answer is best:
> ...


Don't worry, sooner or later someone will tell you what to think. Promise.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

/points at Dannyboy

/points at diddye

/points at mdmedicine

/points at Fargo

/points at pretty much all of pfury EXCEPT TEAM RIP


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2006)




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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

thats it for that discussion...


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2006)

C0Rey said:


> thats it for that discussion...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> C0Rey Posted Today, 10:27 AM
> thats it for that discussion...


I see a wise old owl. Not much else.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)




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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

/does google search.....


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

finds this


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Hmmm, looks like someone is having a mid-life crisis.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

> I'm already blind. Wouldn't it have been easier to highlite the portion that was taken out of context? On second thought, they (the other members) wanted everyone to read all their cited stuff....let them suffer through the Pope.


I'll do better by quoting a much briefer article that is totally biased to my liking.

The Man Behind the Quote: Emperor Manuel II Paleologos
Not Ready for My Burqua ^ | 9/18/06 | me

Posted on 09/18/2006 12:00:58 PM PDT by happymom

In today's edition of the American Thinker, Peter Muhearn raises an interesting point in the current Pope-Islam controversy:

Did Pope Benedict give Muslims cause for offense by quoting the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus (born 1350, died 1425)? Manuel once scored debating points on a Persian scholar by demanding 
"how me just what Mohammed brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

. . .

Manuel certainly knew what he was talking about. He spent some time as a hostage in the court of one Muslim neighbor and he spent a lifetime fighting back against expansionist Islam. Almost nobody pauses to consider that Manuel might have something to teach us. Instead our conversation centers on whether the Pope is to blame for riling Muslims up and what he (and we) can do to mollify them.

Manuel II Paleologos was born in 1350 to the Emperor John V (reigned 1341-1391), a weak ruler who was overthrown twice, once by his son Andronicus IV, and later by his grandson, John VII. At the time of the 1373 coup by Andronicus, John appointed Manuel co-emperor. In 1376, Andronicus imprisoned John and Manuel, but they were able to escape and seek protection from the Ottoman Sultan Murad I, who, ironically, had backed Andronicus in his coup. John and Manuel promised Murad a heftier tribute than Andronicus was willing to pay, and were able to regain their throne. (Source: Manuel II PALAIOLOGOS (1391-1425 A.D.) Wilhelm Baum, Univeristät Graz, Austria)

In 1390, John was again overthrown by Andronicus and his son, John VII. Manuel was sent as a hostage to the court of the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid I. He was forced to fight with the Turks against the Byzantine city of Philadelphia. (Source: Wikipedia) During this period, John V was restored to his throne for the last time, but Manuel remained in humiliating submission to the Sultan. When John tried to rebuild the fortified walls of Constantinople, Bayezid threatened to gouge out Manuel's eyes. The refortification project came to an end. (Baum) It was at this time that Manuel participated in the conversations which he published in 1399 as the Twenty-six dialogues with a Persian.

After his father's death in 1391, Manuel was installed as Emperor, in vassallage to the Sultan. Manuel tried to enlist help from the West to throw off the Ottoman overlord, enraging the Sultan, who laid seige to Constantinople from 1394 to 1402. On a diplomatic mission to Serres in 1394, Manuel, his nephew John VII, Theodore of Morea, and Prince Stefan Lazervic of Serbia were ambushed by Bayezid, who wanted to kill them all. They were forced to watch as several Byzantine army officers were blinded. "The events in Serres confirmed Manuel's opinion that the Turks were not amenable to any kind of reasoning." (Baum)

Manuel spent the rest of his life trying to rouse the West to help him defend Constantinople against the Turks, but with no success. In 1424, he and his son, John VIII Paleologous, were forced to sign a peace treaty and pay tribute to the Ottoman Empire. He died in 1425, and was buried in the monastic Church of the Pantokrator. His grave was later destroyed by the Turks.

So what are some of the lessons that Manuel might be able to teach us? Here are a few:

* Unity is essential against an enemy. If the Paleologoi hadn't been so busy overthrowing each other, they wouldn't have had to seek allies among the Ottomans, and may have been able to put up more of a defense against their common enemy.

* Appeasment doesn't work. As Andronicus and his son learned, there is always someone willing to pay a higher tribute, at which point your value drops to zero. As Winston Churchill was to say many years later, "Appeasment is like feeding a crocodile, hoping that he will eat you last."

* The West must be willing to fight. Manuel spent the last 20 years of his life trying to win help from his European neighbors against the onslaught of the Ottoman Empire. While Europe celebrated the prosperity and artistic expression of the Renaissance, Constantinople was beseiged and humiliated, and ultimately sacked. Although the West won a temporary respite, the Ottomans didn't leave them alone. They continued to attack and conquer Christian Europe until they were turned back from the gates of Vienna in 1683.

So, will we learn from this tragic emperor or will we continue to pretend that Western Civilization is the real enemy and that we have more to fear from Pope Benedict XVI than from the Islamic radicals who threaten to kill him?

Manuel II PALAIOLOGOS (1391-1425 A.D.)


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I dont know if I'm having a crisis, but I might go blind after reading that last post!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I'm already blind.







Wouldn't it have been easier to highlite the portion that was taken out of context? On second thought, they (the other members) wanted everyone to read all their cited stuff....let them suffer through the Pope.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

See what happens when I go to a meeting...this whole thread falls apart.

Look, bottom line is this:

The whole world has been violent in the past. Americans, Italians, Germans, Romans, Greek, Japanese, China, all of Africa, Mulsims, etc etc etc.

Nobody is proud of it. But mostly everyone has changed, and moved on to a better way of life and respect, except for these nutbags. Their actions TODAY are the same as their actions during the Middle Ages.

That is why their history has been brought up. To show that they have always been violent, and continue to be so. If you want to bring up the US' past violence then fine. It lends even more proof to the fact that TODAY we are not savages anymore. We have changed.

So thank you for pointing that out. It's something to be proud of.

And so, the threat - TODAY - is these psychos who want to chop off all our heads unless we pray to Allah.

Well these nutbags can kiss my *ss.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Scrap5000 Posted Today, 10:54 AM
> See what happens when I go to a meeting...this whole thread falls apart.
> 
> Look, bottom line is this:
> ...


Changed? Changed?







Go back and read the nuke remarks.

_See what happens when I go to a meeting...this whole thread falls apart._ OK Hugo.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Scrap5000 said:


> See what happens when I go to a meeting...this whole thread falls apart.
> 
> But mostly everyone has changed, and moved on to a better way of life and respect, except for these nutbags. Their actions TODAY are the same as their actions during the Middle Ages.


Yeah, you held the thread together









I do agree that these extremists are slow to evolve however....


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> acestro Posted Today, 11:02 AM
> QUOTE(Scrap5000 @ Sep 21 2006, 12:54 PM)
> 
> See what happens when I go to a meeting...this whole thread falls apart.
> ...


hmmm sounds like science to me.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

..


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2006)

acestro said:


> See what happens when I go to a meeting...this whole thread falls apart.
> 
> But mostly everyone has changed, and moved on to a better way of life and respect, except for these nutbags. Their actions TODAY are the same as their actions during the Middle Ages.


Yeah, you held the thread together









I do agree that these extremists are slow to evolve however....
[/quote]










View attachment 120423


Im not goin to bother arguing in this thread anymore as no new points of interest have been brought to the table. I will end by asking what it is America sees itself as, and what it wants to be. Clearly people like Scrap simply believe McCarthyism and global assimilaton to western culture is the only option- assimilate or die. But there was a time, in the not so distant past, where a war was avoided on the basis of diplomacy. Despite the anti-Christian/anti-American rantings of men such as Joseph McCarthy, a vision of peace prevailed and the world was better for it. The bad people were overthrown, and a nation was sent into an internal fight for freedom (a battle I believe is neccesary).

Why ignore history? How much longer will America have to be associated with the Christian warrior of the world?

Maybe I am just a young, hopeless liberal hippy, like most of you think. If thats the case, then carry on with your lives, because it matters not that I have spoken...youve already made up your mind to only hear and respect certain opinions, and it is clear your focus is not on what should be most important- the rights of all human beings.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

This is definitely the pic of the day:


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

> I will end by asking what it is America sees itself as, and what it wants to be.


answer-able question???











Fargo said:


> This is definitely the pic of the day:


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Im not goin to bother arguing in this thread anymore as no new points of interest have been brought to the table. I will end by asking what it is America sees itself as, and what it wants to be. Clearly people like Scrap simply believe McCarthyism and global assimilaton to western culture is the only option- assimilate or die. But there was a time, in the not so distant past, where a war was avoided on the basis of diplomacy. Despite the anti-Christian/anti-American rantings of men such as Joseph McCarthy, a vision of peace prevailed and the world was better for it. The bad people were overthrown, and a nation was sent into an internal fight for freedom (a battle I believe is neccesary).
> 
> Why ignore history? How much longer will America have to be associated with the Christian warrior of the world?
> 
> Maybe I am just a young, hopeless liberal hippy, like most of you think. If thats the case, then carry on with your lives, because it matters not that I have spoken...youve already made up your mind to only hear and respect certain opinions, and it is clear your focus is not on what should be most important- the rights of all human beings.


Danny, I can tell you have a good heart, and I wish the world would just be the way you want it, but people left to their own devices are weak, greedy, backstabbing, and gullible. Someone has to take charge right now on the world scene to restore order, and while I agree that America needs much better leaders, even with good leaders, part of the problem has been that the timeline of terrrorism has never been effectively neutralized. We're facing a situation now that is way out of control because we've ignored it too long - where we don't know from day to day if one of our Western cities will be nuked or not. Now you can't tell me that even if it was our leaders' fault that it got like this, that the American and Canadian civilians woul deserve such a thing.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2006)

I agree Fargo. I believe radical extremist of ALL parties need to be dealt with. I am more concerned about those who support the extermination of an entire population in order to root out those who are a threat. I personally see that as a step backwards. Again, I wont argue these points, I will simply state them. To people like Scrap: take it or leave it, its your life and your decisions. Just to go barbaric on those who have an opposing opinion.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Did anyone else hear the rumor of Muslims being told to leave the New York and D.C. areas? I cant remember where I heard this, but supposedly there's an individual (and they had his name, I forgot it) that might have crossed from Mexico with a nuclear device.

Sounds a lot like scare tactics, but I was wondering if anyone had anything more concrete...


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

hastatus said:


> Changed? Changed?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Um, yeaaaahhhh...if I nuke to keep from getting killed then that's defensive, not offensive to steal land or riches. Doy.



> _See what happens when I go to a meeting...this whole thread falls apart._ OK Hugo.:rasp:


Um, yeeeeeaaahhh again, since all these silly pics came in while I was gone...


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Silly pics? What are you talking about cave man?


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2006)

We were celebrating your absence


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

acestro said:


> Did anyone else hear the rumor of Muslims being told to leave the New York and D.C. areas? I cant remember where I heard this, but supposedly there's an individual (and they had his name, I forgot it) that might have crossed from Mexico with a nuclear device.
> 
> Sounds a lot like scare tactics, but I was wondering if anyone had anything more concrete...


http://www.townhall.com/blog/g/90819ade-92...55-862216fef048

Thursday, September 21, 2006 
Adnan el Shukrijumah and the Next American Attack? 
Posted by: Mary Katharine Ham at 10:33 AM 
All right, first let's keep the names straight.

Adnan el Shukrijumah is a Saudi native and naturalized U.S. citizen who the FBI has been looking for since 2003. He's a suspected high-level al Qaeda operative who the feds call "the next Mohammad Atta." He may be on the loose in the U.S., and he's been at the center of recent reports of a possible nuke attack in the U.S. to coincide with Ramadan. He is suspected to have smuggled nukes and/or other materials over the Mexican border. There have even been reported warnings to Muslims to leave New York and Washington, D.C.

Hamid Mir is a Pakistani journalist with a Rolodex full of al Qaeda contacts. Mir has met with Osama bin Laden three times, and is the only journalist to have met with him post-9/11. In 1997, bin Laden told Mir of his intention to attack the United States. Mir did not believe him. This interview with Mir about his interactions with al Qaeda is absolutely fascinating.

Abu Dawood is commander of al Qaeda forces in Afghanistan. Mir recently met with Dawood in Afghanistan. During the interview, Mir was tipped to planned attacks in America, possibly nuclear, to be carried out by Shukrijumah.

Glenn Beck is, well this is an easier one. He's a radio host who had Mir on his show to talk about what he learned from Dawood about Shukrijumah and possible plans for an attack on America.

Got it? All right, now Beck had Mir on his show yesterday. The most chilling quote for me:

Mir: "When I met Osama bin Laden in 1997, he said that I will attack America and I was the person who was not ready to believe him. It was not only me who was not ready to believe him, but all the Americans including the State Department, CIA...Everyone was underestimating his claims, but what happened on 9/11? Osama bin Laden did what he was saying."
Vinnie at Jawa Report was listening:

Osama is alive, and won't do video because the CIA can target him anywhere in the world based on the video. Which makes sense, and doesn't. Osama was pinpointed by geologists in a video he released after 9/11 by the rocks he was sitting in front of in the video. They were rocks found only in one part of the world. Ever since, if you haven't noticed, AQ videos have a curtain behind the speaker, or are inside. Oh, and I'm not talking about AQ in Iraq videos. The main men, so to speak. Osama, Ayman, Azzam the Asstard.

Reiteration of the call for all Muslims to leave America. Why? Because American Muslims are a "shield." However, if they stay, the attack will go on anyway.

Details of a meeting between Adnan Al-Shukri Jumaa and AQ leadership in Khost, Afghanistan two months ago.

I blinked and almost missed it. Hamir doesn't claim Adnan Al-Shukri Jumaa smuggled nukes across the southern border, he uses the phrase "dangerous materials." Wow, what a relief.

Read the whole thing. Much more in there.

Allah got six minutes of the audio up, so go listen to that, too:

The audio picks up with Mir talking about his recent meeting in Afghanistan with AQ capo Abu Dawood. It ends with him alleging a closer relationship between Al Qaeda and Iran than most counterterror experts believe. 
Beck's show has been the first MSM hit on this story, as far as I can tell, though credit goes to college columnist Josh Capers at NC A&T for including it in this column.

Abigale Lynn Woods, the week-old baby kidnapped this week in Missouri, was returned to her mother after the kidnapper's sister-in-law spotted a birthmark on the baby's forehead-- a mark the media had publicized widely. One wonders if Shukrijumah would be spotted if we heard as much about him as about Woods.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

That's the one.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Im not goin to bother arguing in this thread anymore as no new points of interest have been brought to the table. I will end by asking what it is America sees itself as, and what it wants to be. *Clearly people like Scrap simply believe McCarthyism and global assimilaton to western culture is the only option- assimilate or die. But there was a time, in the not so distant past, where a war was avoided on the basis of diplomacy. Despite the anti-Christian/anti-American rantings of men such as Joseph McCarthy, a vision of peace prevailed and the world was better for it. The bad people were overthrown, and a nation was sent into an internal fight for freedom (a battle I believe is neccesary). *
> 
> Why ignore history? How much longer will America have to be associated with the Christian warrior of the world?
> 
> Maybe I am just a young, hopeless liberal hippy, like most of you think. If thats the case, then carry on with your lives, because it matters not that I have spoken...youve already made up your mind to only hear and respect certain opinions, and it is clear your focus is not on what should be most important- the rights of all human beings.


Danny, let me address you point by point:

1. I could not care less if these people lived in tunnels under the sand, prayed to camel spiders, and used camel dung as currency. I don't need or want or care for assimilation - that is THEIR B.S. line to agitate all these brainwashed idiots into fighting for them in the name of Islam. THEY are the ones saying become Muslim or die. Why can't you see that??

The way I see it, everyone in this world has a right to live their life however the hell they see fit. However, their right to live their life as they want ENDS where my right to live my life as I want begins.

THEY are the ones threatening to kill us if we don't follow their way of life. 
I am the one saying I'd rather kill them first then be killed by them.

I'm not the one saying kill them because they are different, kill them because God told me to, kill them because they do not believe in what I believe. 
I'm the one saying they want us dead, so kill them first, because if you don't, they will kill you, for idiotic reasons to boot.

They are on the offense.
I am on the defense.

I don't know how else to make that clear to you.

2. Why you would even bring McCarthy into this is beyond me. He intentionally spread lies to bolster his public campaign for political power. Whether or not you are referring to Bush as doing the same is another matter. For this dicussion, I am pointing to the fact that the Muslims have, indeed, in their own press releases, threatened to kill us all. Not to mention they they flew a few planes into our buildings and bombed our embassies and killed at least one nun. That is not a lie. That is not propoganda. That is not me trying to drum up a witch hunt. Not to mention that I have personally been told that what Bin Laden did was right, and on more than one occassion by "ordinary people". Whether or not you choose to believe that is up to you. I hate liars, but there's no one you could know for sure if I'm telling the truth or not.

3. Where is this fantasy world you speak of where diplomacy avoided war?? The only reason we weren't annihalated by Russia during the Cold War (and vice versa) was due to the threat of mutual annihalation. The threat of payback destruction kept anyone from destroying in the first place. Communism was overthrown for the most part because it was not economically viable and the people began to accept that there is a higher order of life than blindly serving the government, and that the individual is always as important as the masses. Now, tho, we are dealing with nutbags who think that if they die, they will be awarded 72 virgins in heaven, so they have no reason NOT to die.

I think you're a good person too, like someone else said, and it would be wonderful if we could all live the way you wish we could. But that is a fantasy world, Danny. This is reality we're dealing with. And the reality is they don't care one tiny bit for your peace, love & hippie beads. They want you worshipping Allah, or dead. And they don't care if they die trying to make it happen. Period.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Clearly people like Scrap simply believe McCarthyism and global assimilaton to western culture is the only option- assimilate or die.


Actually Scrap remarks remind me of something different.



> The audio picks up with Mir talking about his recent meeting in Afghanistan with AQ capo Abu *Dawood. *


Well at least he didn't say Dagwood. Wonder what Blondie would have had to say about that.











> Someone has to take charge right now on the world scene to restore order,


Now that remark reminds me of Hitler.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

hastatus said:


> Actually Scrap remarks remind me of something different.


Wait a minute...I remember you now...you were the one dude who kept voting against me when I got put in the padded room for saying non PC things about Islam. You kept telling Mike not to trust me and that all I would do was bring crap to this site and that I was basically a worthless piece of garbage that shouldn't be given another chance. You were pretty long winded about your reasons why I shouldn't be let back on, and THEN after I was let back in and sent you a PM saying hey, no hard feelings, and not to worry, I can be trusted, your response was "fine". And even when I called you out on that & asked why do you only have one word to say to me after your long speach earlier, I didn't even get a response from you.

So that's who i'm dealing with. It all makes sense now.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

acestro said:


> Did anyone else hear the rumor of Muslims being told to leave the New York and D.C. areas? I cant remember where I heard this, but supposedly there's an individual (and they had his name, I forgot it) that might have crossed from Mexico with a nuclear device.
> 
> Sounds a lot like scare tactics, but I was wondering if anyone had anything more concrete...


i heard that yesterday on glenn beck. he was talking about how a militant muslim webmaster called for the emigration of all muslims in america because they're "human shields" for the kafirs. there are rumors that al qaeda has nuclear ordinance but i find that highly unlikely. they don't have the money, facilities, or expertise to create a tactical low yield nuclear weapon. and the only two countries that would actually supply nuclear material i think it's fair to say are china and russia. and russia is willing to defy the entire world out in the open and build iran's nuclear power plant. my theory is because it's different to do the wrong thing out in the open than get caught being the country that helped al qaeda take out a major us city.


----------



## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

mdrs said:


> i heard that yesterday on glenn beck. he was talking about how a militant muslim webmaster called for the emigration of all muslims in america because they're "human shields" for the kafirs. there are rumors that al qaeda has nuclear ordinance but i find that highly unlikely. they don't have the money, facilities, or expertise to create a tactical low yield nuclear weapon. and the only two countries that would actually supply nuclear material i think it's fair to say are china and russia. and russia is willing to defy the entire world out in the open and build iran's nuclear power plant. my theory is because it's different to do the wrong thing out in the open than get caught being the country that helped al qaeda take out a major us city.


Are ya kidding? Bin Laden is worth millions, and a dirty nuclear bomb could be built by a 9 year old if they had the material.


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Scrap5000 Posted Today, 01:23 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Sep 21 2006, 04:07 PM)
> 
> Actually Scrap remarks remind me of something different.
> ...


Hate to break it to you, but I don't even know what you are talking about much less the memory of what you are stating.







If I wrote to you "FINE" then it was fine. No other comment was needed by me. Besides what does that have to do with this topic? We are talking about Muslims, U.S. and the borg.


----------



## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

hastatus said:


> > Scrap5000 Posted Today, 01:23 PM
> > QUOTE(hastatus @ Sep 21 2006, 04:07 PM)
> >
> > Actually Scrap remarks remind me of something different.
> ...


Fine, I'll let by-gones be by-gones...


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

i like that these people attacked us. they did so with and still enjoy the popular support of the people there. this is an ongoing situation that started shortly after WW2. but when we say that they want to kill us and quote them saying that they want to kill us all we're intolerant. these people will kill us all. that CULTURE is planning on taking out the west.

and all people do is say it's our fault they feel that way and we should just leave them alone. all beliefs are noble beliefs, aren't they danny boy? well it's their belief that i need to die and it's mine that i don't.

for everyone that's pro war, WAIT. people won't mention imperialism or anything else when a major city is in ruins.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

mdrs said:


> for everyone that's pro war, WAIT. people won't mention imperialism or anything else when a major city is in ruins.


All good points, but wait for what? Because I live in NYC...the way the muslim nuts want it, I won't be around to say "I told you so". Ashes don't speak.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

untrue. firstly, the bin laden money is because his father rebuilt mecca and medina on contract from the iranian government. bin laden has very little money of his own and depends on donations from the middle eastern people. the muslim brotherhood are known to fund such unpleasantness as they're a major entity in every country in the middle east and have a strong infastructure of charities and other initiatives.

and secondly, it's harder to make a dirty bomb than you think. even harder to get something like that into this country. unless of course we see al qaeda coming up through the mexican border where all of those racist minutemen made such a fuss over that very issue.
http://www.giwersworld.org/911/dirty-bomb.phtml



Scrap5000 said:


> for everyone that's pro war, WAIT. people won't mention imperialism or anything else when a major city is in ruins.


All good points, but wait for what? Because I live in NYC...the way the muslim nuts want it, I won't be around to say "I told you so". Ashes don't speak.
[/quote]

i meant wait for public opinon to change. it's immoral to attack someone that clearly wants to kill you until they show aggression. oh wait beruit, mogadishu, the USS Cole, tanzania, the iranian hostage crisis, New York twice, the recent terrorist arrests in Ohio, IEDs in iraq and afghanistan to name a few. and those are only attacks on the US.

but that was all our fault right? cause we won't leave them alone? the american culture is to blame in two ways. it's too lazy and stupid to see the current threat and they're too materialistic. i think materialism is pretty prevalent in the west. it's natural, when you have stuff you like it and want more. the west doesn't really care about religion as long as you don't make trouble they just want to be left alone. if you don't want to deal with the west and don't cause trouble, we'll leave you alone cause we want to make money and get more stuff. that's why we tolerate atheism. try and be an atheist in Iran. see how noble and oppressed they are then.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

mdrs said:


> but that was all our fault right?


Yeah, it IS all our fault...beacuse we helped them fight against Russia. No good deed goes unpunished. We should have let the Russians wax them all back then...the cold war would have eneded in our favor anyway.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Scrap5000 Posted Today, 02:02 PM
> QUOTE(mdrs @ Sep 21 2006, 04:52 PM)
> 
> but that was all our fault right?
> ...


Would be lonely not to have someone to pick on.











> mdrs Posted Today, 01:52 PM
> untrue. firstly, the bin laden money is because his father rebuilt mecca and medina on contract from the iranian government. bin laden has very little money of his own and depends on donations from the middle eastern people. the muslim brotherhood are known to fund such unpleasantness as they're a major entity in every country in the middle east and have a strong infastructure of charities and other initiatives.
> 
> and secondly, it's harder to make a dirty bomb than you think. even harder to get something like that into this country. unless of course we see al qaeda coming up through the mexican border *where all of those racist minutemen made such a fuss over that very issue.*
> http://www.giwersworld.org/911/dirty-bomb.phtml


I guess that makes me a racist expecting our borders to be secure from illegal crossings....note key word _illegal._


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

Scrap5000 said:


> but that was all our fault right?


Yeah, it IS all our fault...beacuse we helped them fight against Russia. No good deed goes unpunished. We should have let the Russians wax them all back then...the cold war would have eneded in our favor anyway.
[/quote]

i belive that the domino theory is correct. if we'd have let communists alone while they were making major land grabs, it's easy to see how communism could have taken root across the world. but if we had left them to their devices in afghanistan, they would never have won. it did take a spec warfare commander to win against guerillas. the soviets turned that country into a meat grinder sending conventional troops in over and over. talk about the borg. the us tries to get occupied peoples to draft constitutions and hold elections. the soviets and islamists want to force people to follow their oppressive theocratic regime or die.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

hastatus said:


> I guess that makes me a racist expecting our borders to be secure from illegal crossings....note key word _illegal._


I don't think they are racists, just protecting our border. 99% of the Mexicans I've met are simply looking for work, and do the work that 99% of American Teens are too proud and spoiled and lazy to do. But there is also the possibility then that anyone or anything else can get in, too.

But seriously, if people can smuggle TONS & TONS of drugs and illegal aliens into this country, what makes anyone think that an A-Bomb weighing a few hundred pounds or even a ton can't be brought into this country? Just like the drugs & people get in, then so can the bomb, it's plain to see that.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2006)

Scrap5000 said:


> I guess that makes me a racist expecting our borders to be secure from illegal crossings....note key word _illegal._


I don't think they are racists, just protecting our border. 99% of the Mexicans I've met are simply looking for work, and do the work that 99% of American Teens are too proud and spoiled and lazy to do. But there is also the possibility then that anyone or anything else can get in, too.

But seriously, if people can smuggle TONS & TONS of drugs and illegal aliens into this country, what makes anyone think that an A-Bomb weighing a few hundred pounds or even a ton can't be brought into this country? Just like the drugs & people get in, then so can the bomb, it's plain to see that.
[/quote]

The poor bastard who has to carry that sh*t on his back...

"Damnit Carlos, stop whining. Its only a 1200 lb atomic bomb, geeze!"


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

One of my wackier friends sent me this. For those that lack humor, its just a joke.



> Everyone seems to be wondering why Muslim terrorists are so quick to commit suicide. Let's see now. .. .
> 
> No Jesus
> 
> ...


Doesn't help the situation much with stuff like this floating around.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > Someone has to take charge right now on the world scene to restore order,
> 
> 
> Now that remark reminds me of Hitler.


I'd appreciate not being criticized out of context. I have never once compared anyone's comments on this forum to Hitler, although I've identified facist elements in many political factions, including the Republican party. When I said someone needs to "take charge," I didn't mean in the sense of empire or police state, but in the sense of leading the way to eradicating terrorism and genocide. Obviously America has fallen short recently in many ways, given the globalist/corporatist leadership ideology of the neocons, but as no other country except perhaps Great Britian has demonstrated the resolve to confront radical Islam, I still perceive the United States as the torch-bearer if we can get some real leadership. "That's what I meant by taking charge."


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Now that remark reminds me of Hitler.





> I'd appreciate not being criticized out of context


.

That is NOT a criticism, that is an observation. Big difference.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Scrap5000 said:


> Makes ME wonder why the U.S. saved their (Dutch) arses vis a vis WWII.:laugh: Oh yeah, forgot, Freedom to include SPEECH.


Yeah, that's always the case...no good deed goes unpunished nor appreciated. The bad is always denounced, the good always ignored & forgotten. No matter how good or hard it was to do it.
[/quote]
So let me get this straight: just because your grandfather saved my country (in fact, we owe our freedom mainly to the Polish and Canadians - like I said, read a f*cking book for a change!), means I have no right to critice a country who's foreign policy fucks up just about the entire planet. Because Americans fought to liberate Europe I have to bend over and accept everything the US does, no questions asked? Even if a f'n 3 year-old could see on forhand that it is nothing more than one big laughable display of arrogance, ignorance and incompetence, one that has only worked counter-productive, made the world less safe, and with a body count that dwarfs 9/11 (for both sides, for that matter)?
I would stay quiet - but only if the US kept its f*cking politics within your own borders - since you choose not to, you turned it into a global matter. And guess what: 'global' also includes The Netherlands. So either put me on 'ignore', or suck it up - it's up to you...

Anyways, you may be American, but I owe you _nothing_, kiddo. It's your ancestors that liberated Europe, not you. Those people didn't put their ass on the line so you can violate and soil their efforts to make your own pathetic little point, nor to give you bragging rights for the occasions you run out of intelligent arguments. You should be ashamed of yourself for the way you abuse their sacrifices that way








Besides that, the whole "If it weren't for use, you'd be..." point is really getting old, and to be honest, 100% irrelevant. And if it is relevant, then it's also relevant to the US owes its very existence and its political framework to Europe and European ideas - yet you don't hear us say STFU as soon as you 'dare' to be critical of us.

btw: disappointing to see that out of my previous post you only picked out those things you find interesting, yet other points and questions are conveniently ignored. Not that I expected an intelligent reply to it, but disappointing nontheless...


----------



## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

Judazzz said:


> Makes ME wonder why the U.S. saved their (Dutch) arses vis a vis WWII.:laugh: Oh yeah, forgot, Freedom to include SPEECH.


Yeah, that's always the case...no good deed goes unpunished nor appreciated. The bad is always denounced, the good always ignored & forgotten. No matter how good or hard it was to do it.
[/quote]
So let me get this straight: just because your grandfather saved my country (in fact, we owe our freedom mainly to the Polish and Canadians - like I said, read a f*cking book for a change!), means I have no right to critice a country who's foreign policy fucks up just about the entire planet. Because Americans fought to liberate Europe I have to bend over and accept everything the US does, no questions asked? Even if a f'n 3 year-old could see on forhand that it is nothing more than one big laughable display of arrogance, ignorance and incompetence, one that has only worked counter-productive, made the world less safe, and with a body count that dwarfs 9/11 (for both sides, for that matter)?
I would stay quiet - but only if the US kept its f*cking politics within your own borders - since you choose not to, you turned it into a global matter. And guess what: 'global' also includes The Netherlands. So either put me on 'ignore', or suck it up - it's up to you...

Anyways, you may be American, but I owe you _nothing_, kiddo. It's your ancestors that liberated Europe, not you. Those people didn't put their ass on the line so you can violate and soil their efforts to make your own pathetic little point, nor to give you bragging rights for the occasions you run out of intelligent arguments. You should be ashamed of yourself for the way you abuse their sacrifices that way








Besides that, the whole "If it weren't for use, you'd be..." point is really getting old, and to be honest, 100% irrelevant. And if it is relevant, then it's also relevant to the US owes its very existence and its political framework to Europe and European ideas - yet you don't hear us say STFU as soon as you 'dare' to be critical of us.

btw: disappointing to see that out of my previous post you only picked out those things you find interesting, yet other points and questions are conveniently ignored. Not that I expected an intelligent reply to it, but disappointing nontheless...
[/quote]

i like it that people forget the american people traditionally are isolationist. that's why we refused to be part of the league of nations and that's why it failed. you talk about how americans need to stay in america but you forget that WE are the ONLY country that donates the maximum allowable limit to the UN every year. WE pay 20% of the annual budget and that's only because they changed it and we're not allow to pay 25% anymore. WE host the UN on OUR SOIL. WE pay more than most two nations to help provide a forum for every country belonging to the UN. so if we isolate, we should expell the UN and stop giving them money and troops and supplies? that's what we're doing to try and help the rest of the world RIGHT NOW, my friend. how much does your country give? what percentage of your GNP?

we didn't attack anyone till we were attacked by GLOBAL TERRORIST ORGAINIZATIONS multiple times. if no one else is going to step up someone has to. and once again, the europeans are complacent and have allowed another dangerous group to come into power. take care of your own sh*t so we don't have to come over and take care of it for you, my friend.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

mdrs said:


> i like it that people forget the american people traditionally are isolationist. that's why we refused to be part of the league of nations and that's why it failed. you talk about how americans need to stay in america but you forget that WE are the ONLY country that donates the maximum allowable limit to the UN every year. WE pay 20% of the annual budget and that's only because they changed it to years ago and we're not allow to pay 25% anymore. WE host the UN on OUR SOIL. WE pay more than most two nations to help provide a forum for every country belonging to the UN. so if we isolate, we should expell the UN and stop giving them money and troops and supplies? that's what we're doing to try and help the rest of the world RIGHT NOW, my friend. how much does your country give? what percentage of your GNP?
> 
> we didn't attack anyone till we were attacked by GLOBAL TERRORIST ORGAINIZATIONS multiple times. if no one else is going to step up someone has to. and once again, the europeans are complacent and have allowed another dangerous group to come into power. take care of your own sh*t so we don't have to come over and take care of it for you, my friend.


Per capita, our nation is the largest contributor to the EU (and at the same time receive the least), as well as to global charity and development aid. I'm not sure about how much we contribute to the UN, but I'm sure it's a good amount of money. All in all we give our share of money to all sorts of funds - probably per capita comparable to what the US donates.

Yes, you (as in the US) were attacked by Al Qaeda, but not by people that woke up one day, and out of the blue decided to stab the big bad US right in its heart. Action - reaction, cause and effect, my man, and that's what many of you Americans (tend to) forget - deliberately or not. You are good at pointing fingers at others, but as soon as its about reviewing your own actions critically, you suddenly loose your speech and other senses and start lashing out.
Don't get me wrong, what happened on 9/11 is unjustifyable, and it did came out of the blue (at least for us civilians), but it was a reaction. Don't act like the US were saints in the past, and don't act like the US doesn't owe many of its problems to itself (which btw. doesn't mean the US did deserve it!) 9/11 wasn't Zero Hour - it was just another episode in a chain of events that started much earlier.
Also, I'm not saying that we Europeans are doing better - in fact, we are as much a part of the problem, and we as much add to the depening of the gap, and the increasing tensions. Something for which all parties involved (US, Europe, Israel, Arab countries) can be held accountable. And it's not something that will improve if all parties stick to their approach. Appeasement is not going to work (it will only be seen as a sign of weakness by militants, a method to achieve your goals by blackmail and treat), but it's not the only, not even the dominant way we deal with the issue here. An issue that btw. has very different dimensions in Europe, compared to the US, and thus requires a very diffenet approach to begin with (not that the present-day war-like, violent approach will be good under any circumstances anyways).
One thing is for sure, though: your approach hasn't solved _anything_ (democracy in both Iraq and Afghanistan are stillborn as long as the US/Coalition fails to change the situation for the better). Afghanistan is a mess, Iraq is an ever bigger mess. The world hasn't become any safer, the tensions have only become worse. So we can conclude that the US approach is a dead-end approach. Whether the European approach is better I don't know (personally, I doubt it) - but since your approach failed (and won't succeed in a million years), it may be one of the few things left to try.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

Judazzz said:


> So let me get this straight: just because your grandfather saved my country (in fact, we owe our freedom mainly to the Polish and Canadians - like I said, read a f*cking book for a change!), means I have no right to critice a country who's foreign policy fucks up just about the entire planet. Because Americans fought to liberate Europe I have to bend over and accept everything the US does, no questions asked? Even if a f'n 3 year-old could see on forhand that it is nothing more than one big laughable display of arrogance, ignorance and incompetence, one that has only worked counter-productive, made the world less safe, and with a body count that dwarfs 9/11 (for both sides, for that matter)?
> I would stay quiet - but only if the US kept its f*cking politics within your own borders - since you choose not to, you turned it into a global matter. And guess what: 'global' also includes The Netherlands. So either put me on 'ignore', or suck it up - it's up to you...
> 
> Anyways, you may be American, but I owe you _nothing_, kiddo. It's your ancestors that liberated Europe, not you. Those people didn't put their ass on the line so you can violate and soil their efforts to make your own pathetic little point, nor to give you bragging rights for the occasions you run out of intelligent arguments. You should be ashamed of yourself for the way you abuse their sacrifices that way
> ...


Here's a little background check on me to set you straight, b/c you are WAY off the path.

My Grandfathers didn't have anything to do with liberating your country, nor Europe, nor the world. They were simple peasants on the farms of Naples, Italy, too poor to afford any shoes, and for whatever reason not part of any army, probably due to the fact they were uneducated peasants with children. They got fed crap about Mussolini being a great hero, watched the Germans come thru town laying booby traps on the railways, and dodged errant bombs on occassion.

At the same time, they didn't lay roadside bombs to blow up any troops, neither American nor German. They didn't kidnap soldiers and behead them and put them on display in the town square. They didn't scream and rally and violently protest every time someone told them that Rome had a violent history. They didn't threaten to kill every single person who did not follow their beliefs.

Now, why do you think I've given you this whole history lesson on my family's background? Can you take a guess?

It's because they CHEERED when the Americans came thru and liberated them. They CHEERED when Mussolini was thrown from power. They CHEERED when they came to America to make a better life. They CHEER for America today.

They saw, and still see, all that America has done for the world, they hold it dear to their hearts, and they will appreciate it until the day they die. They have been there, they have seen what it means to be liberated, they saw the sacrifices and still speak of them today as if it were yesterday.

I give you my perspective of appreciating America not as an American, but as a first generation immigrant, as someone who has heard the stories firsthand from the people who lived it, from the people who were EUROPEAN, just as you are and your grandparents were.

I'm in the same boat as you are: It was AMERICANS who freed MY Motherland, too!

So MY ancestors weren't the ones who did anything, as you thought. Turn it 180 degrees - it was my ancestors that were freed by America! So get over the whole idea that I am riding on my family's heroic acts. It is my family who pays homage to those heroes!

And just as my family appreciates it, I appreciate it, and I wish to God a lot more people like you would do the same for a change.

Having said all that, I'd really love for you to explain to me how two of our planes smashing into two of our buildings are the West's fault. How someone killing a nun b/c the Pope read a manuscript is the West's fault.

And don't feed me any crap about them being oppressed by the Jews and we're their allies so we are guilty too. Not one of those people on 9/11 nor the nun nor the Pope had ANYTHING to do with oppressing these savages.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

> Per capita, our nation is the largest contributor to the EU (and at the same time receive the least), as well as to global charity and development aid. I'm not sure about how much we contribute to the UN, but I'm sure it's a good amount of money. All in all we give our share of money to all sorts of funds - probably per capita comparable to what the US donates.
> 
> Yes, you (as in the US) were attacked by Al Qaeda, but not by people that woke up one day, and out of the blue decided to stab the big bad US right in its heart. Action - reaction, cause and effect, my man, and that's what many of you Americans (tend to) forget - deliberately or not. You are good at pointing fingers at others, but as soon as its about reviewing your own actions critically, you suddenly loose your speech and other senses and start lashing out.
> Don't get me wrong, what happened on 9/11 is unjustifyable, and it did came out of the blue (at least for us civilians), but it was a reaction. Don't act like the US were saints in the past, and don't act like the US doesn't owe many of its problems to itself (which btw. doesn't mean the US did deserve it!) 9/11 wasn't Zero Hour - it was just another episode in a chain of events that started much earlier.
> ...


what did the US do that started all of this? we helped the rest of the world create israel. that's why the militants want a peice of us. if we'd never helped them, militants would be fighting whoever was. so what should we have done? i mentioned being attacked but i didn't say 911. we were being attacked in the 70s and 80s by these people.

we're here because europe ALLOWED fundamentalist muslim fanatics to make some serious land grabs and start to become a genuine global threat. and while there isn't safety in afghanistan or iraq right now it's safer than before AND there haven't been any more US terror attacks. AND now al qaeda is focusing on the middle east as opposed to the US.

and you had best hope that we don't get to do what the world is too afraid to say. the only hope that we have to help anyone here is to commit completely to hunting down and killing aboslutely EVERY terrorist and punishing all supporters. regardless of history and national borders and alliances. we need to unleash the hybrid dog that is the US military and let it work unimpeded by the media and general public. if we fought this war without tying a hand behind our back and wearing shackles on our legs, we'd win it. we don't do this because the world hopes we don't have to. they won't think otherwise until a city somewhere in the west (prob on US soil) is razed by nuclear ordinance. lets think of european politics. how many "little" wars are still being fought on european soil? how many? the european ethos is one of INDIFFERENCE. you don't seem to care at all over there. so again, don't get upset at us because we're trying SOMETHING. you step up and try a different method instead of doing the same thing that didn't work for the germans, the spanish, the chechens, croats, russians, swiss, irish, yugoslavians, finnish, or the polish.

the EU is fine and good but i asked about the UN. you don't know so you assume. the EU is not a GLOBAL organization, it's a european one.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

Judazzz said:


> Yes, you (as in the US) were attacked by Al Qaeda, but not by people that woke up one day, and out of the blue decided to stab the big bad US right in its heart. Action - reaction, cause and effect, my man, and that's what many of you Americans (tend to) forget - deliberately or not. You are good at pointing fingers at others, but as soon as its about reviewing your own actions critically, you suddenly loose your speech and other senses and start lashing out.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, what happened on 9/11 is unjustifyable, and it did came out of the blue (at least for us civilians), but it was a reaction. Don't act like the US were saints in the past, and don't act like the US doesn't owe many of its problems to itself (which btw. doesn't mean the US did deserve it!) 9/11 wasn't Zero Hour - it was just another episode in a chain of events that started much earlier.


Are you kidding me?? If someone has beef with a country, then form an army and declare war and fight with SOLDIERS, like MEN. Name ONE instance in which American deliberately attacked innocent unarmed civilians en mass, killing thousands of them. These animals deliberately attacked men, women, and children civilians!! There is NO ONE to blame for that but them!! I can't believe the things I hear people say nowadays. "America had it coming...it was America's own fault!" What the hell is in your drinking water??



> One thing is for sure, though: your approach hasn't solved _anything_ (democracy in both Iraq and Afghanistan are stillborn as long as the US/Coalition fails to change the situation for the better). Afghanistan is a mess, Iraq is an ever bigger mess. The world hasn't become any safer, the tensions have only become worse. So we can conclude that the US approach is a dead-end approach. Whether the European approach is better I don't know (personally, I doubt it) - but since your approach failed (and won't succeed in a million years), it may be one of the few things left to try.


As I've said before, if the hippies and liberal media shut the hell up for one minute and let America fight thes nutbags without kid gloves then we'd actually be able to get something done over there!! We can't offend these people, we can't be mean to those people, we have to be kind & gentle & careful not to hurt anyone's feelings...when they attack us and then run into a Mosque or a cemetary we can't do anything about it because that would violate their sanctity!! God forbid we interrogate someone or forget to give them a warm fuzzy blanket at night...we're labeled more terrorist than the psychos who chop our heads off!!

You yell and scream to the point that that we can't fight how we need to fight, and then you criticize us for not getting the job done. It's like chopping off someone's arms and legs and then berating them for not winning the swimming competition.

I've realized people who think like that have really got something missing in their brains...the lights are on but nobody is home. Either that or it's been your plan all along..."This is how we stop the war: Take away their tools, and then show the world what a bad job they do, that'll be our one-two punch!"

I'm the one who feels like








now.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Some short quick history w/o my usual comments, hope everyone can read:











> 1. In World War I, the Netherlands had been neutral, and when World War II broke out in August 1939, most people believed that the country would be able to stay out of this war as well. The Dutch army did not immediately mobilize out of fear of provoking the Germans. Not until April 1940 was the army mobilized to its maximum strength.
> 
> 2, In 1940, the Netherlands had known peace for over a hundred years, its last war having been the Belgian Revolution of 1830. Therefore, and also because of widespread pacifism during the 1920s and 1930s, its army was in a sorry state. Most of its army units where equipped with carbines dating from 1890, and the Netherlands had no real war industry to fight out a prolonged war. When World War 1 ended, the Dutch politicians decided that the army was no longer necessary to protect Holland, the League of Nations was there to protect them. Due to the Great Depression, the politicians realized they had to cut down on the army as it was too expensive to maintain.
> 
> ...


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Scrap5000 said:


> Having said all that, I'd really love for you to explain to me how two of our planes smashing into two of our buildings are the West's fault. How someone killing a nun b/c the Pope read a manuscript is the West's fault.
> 
> And don't feed me any crap about them being oppressed by the Jews and we're their allies so we are guilty too. Not one of those people on 9/11 nor the nun nor the Pope had ANYTHING to do with oppressing these savages.


I'm not going to argue with someone who takes my words out of perspective: first of all I never said it was the West's fault that 9/11 happened. Secondly, you are the one dragging the Jews into this argument, not me.
Tell me, what do those thousands of innocent civilian casualties, died by American fire, have to do with 9/11? You only see what you want to see: you see how muslims get enraged over statements made by the Pope (which of course is a ludicrous response that only reinforces stereotypes), you see how 3000 people died on 9/11 - yet you fail to see that the US (and the rest of the West) have so much more (Muslim) blood on their hands. And as long as the likes of you turn a blind eye to all the horrible things that are committed in our name, and blow out of proportion what happens to "us", and as long as hardliners on the other side of the fence do the same, things won't change.
Just one example: during the last days/weeks of first Gulf Warm, the US assured back-up if Shia communities in southern Iraq would rebel against Saddam - so they they did, but by that time, the war was virtually over and new priorities had arisen. But what matters here is they were abandoned by the US, left to them fend for themselves (and that's a fact). The result: they were defenseless against the Saddam regime, and butchered by the tens of thousands. Do you think they forget about that? Do you think that won't have any repercussions in the future? Of course the US is not personally or directly responsible for that, but they are at least partially accountable for what happened. And I'm not even going to start about the one-sided, unconditional support of Israel - which, good or bad, plays a major role in US relations with the Arab world. And it's the US's choice to make that support 100% one-sided. So don't cry if that policy backfires. The methods, justification and propaganda are of course revolting, and there's no way one could justify terrorist attacks on civilians, nor the secret desire to destroy an entire country, but they don't form out of the blue.
And like this example, there are plenty more covert and non-covert operations occurred in the Arab world in the last 3-4 decades in regard to fighting Communism, regime change, arming of resistance groups, playing out different factions against each other etc. - not all leading to thousands of deaths, but many of them having a direct impact on how the US were (and are) perceived (as said, action - reaction).
But if you choose to conveniently ignore your own accountability and the (often disasterous results of your foreign policy), and instead only focus on what 'they' have done to you, then we're done talking... I got better ways to waste time...

mdrs: so now Europe is to blame, because we allowed islamic extremism to get a global foot hold?







Yet another typical example of someone who excells at finger pointing and lashing out at others (bleeding heart self pity), but at the same time doesn't look into the mirror and reviews its own actions critically (for whatever reason - I don't even wanna know).

btw: you accuse me of assuming, but you're no better than that. Most of your post is as assumptious as mine, so don't accuse me of something you are as guilty of.
Prove to me that Europe is, as you put it, responsible for islamism becoming a global threat. But unless you can produce objective, factual sources, don't bother.
Tell me: why were you attacked in the 70's and 80's? Why is Al Qaeda focussing on Iraq? How would killing all terrorists, with the inevitable high civilian body count, solve terrorism, and reduce animosity against the West in general, and the US in particular? Why do you consider the EU indifferent? Tell me about Islam in Europe, since you're apparantly such an expert (Why is the European approach different? What's the position of Muslims in Europe, compared to the US? Why is it that the number of Muslims that hate Europe is small compared to the number that hates the US? Why is the US considered the great Satan, and not Europe?) And lastly, what should Europe do differently to solve the problem? Let violence be the number one response (even though the entire world has seen how wonderful that went - or rather, how ineffective and counter-productive that was)? Can you even think of something that doesn't involve bombing, shooting and waging war?

Anyways, I'm finished with this topic. Not because I don't like discussing these matters, but I'm standing behind my ideas and principles as much as you guys do. And I'm sick of people bending and twisting my words, pulling them out of context, accusing me of things I've never said (for whatever reason - again, I don't even wanna know).
So we can keep argueing and firing questions, insults or accusations at each other, but we're not really going to get anywhere...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Anyways, you may be American, but I owe you nothing, kiddo. It's your ancestors that liberated Europe, not you. Those people didn't put their ass on the line so you can violate and soil their efforts to make your own pathetic little point, nor to give you bragging rights for the occasions you run out of intelligent arguments. You should be ashamed of yourself for the way you abuse their sacrifices that way


If you are addressing me KIDDO, I served in Vietnam as did another brother, Another brother served in Korea. My son served in the invasion of Iraq to remove Sadam. Don't lecture me about sacrificing.









I think the Dutch history of participating in war speaks for itself. I'm curious weren't your people recently attacked by muslims? What happened to all the love?


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

hastatus said:


> I'm not going to argue with someone who takes my words out of perspective: first of all I never said it was the West's fault that 9/11 happened. Secondly, you are the one dragging the Jews into this argument, not me.


Out of persepective? You never said it was the West's fault? You say it right here, again!: 


> Tell me, what do those thousands of innocent civilian casualties, died by American fire, have to do with 9/11? You only see what you want to see: you see how muslims get enraged over statements made by the Pope (which of course is a ludicrous response that only reinforces stereotypes), you see how 3000 people died on 9/11 - yet you fail to see that the US (and the rest of the West) have so much more (Muslim) blood on their hands.


You keep saying it's a reaction, a payback, etc. Same thing as saying it's our fault and therefore that's why we got it.

Whatever, point is this: They want us all dead, and I say do something about it before it's too late. OR just throw up a white flag like your country did so well in WWII as hastatus pointed out so wonderfully.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

hastatus said:


> You keep saying it's a reaction, a payback, etc. Same thing as saying it's our fault and therefore that's why we got it.


Having part in something is not the same as it being your own fault.
But I'm not going to lecture a native English speaker about his own language - it's sad (or rather pathetic) enough as it is























So tell me, after the Germans bombed Rotterdam to rubble, what should we have done? Let me guess: you'd keep fighting on, regardless of the fact that we were outnumbered and outgunned by 1 against 100, and being such a small country, having no chance whatsoever - even if it meant suicide? Well?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> But for the record: I don't feel I owe anything to all the people that served in Vietnam or Iraq either (if in your opinion I should, please tell me what that should be).


Let me see, communism was spreading, that is until Ronald Reagan came into office. Muslim's extremist were attacking the U.S. and your country recently, that is until GWB sent troops into Afganistan and of course Iraq (which I told every :laugh: one from the begining was a lie). Your right I don't see anywhere, where the US owes you anything.



> The only worrying aspect of it was that the people involved were all home-grown - born and raised Dutch that at some stage decided to turn radical and against the very society that fostered them.


And your telling me this why? Read your own history.











> So tell me, after the Germans bombed Rotterdam to rubble, what should we have done? Let me guess: you'd keep fighting on, regardless of the fact that we were outnumbered and outgunned by 1 against 100, and being such a small country, having no chance whatsoever - even if it meant suicide? Well?


Obviously you know nothing about Americans.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

Judazzz said:


> But for the record: I don't feel I owe anything to all the people that served in Vietnam or Iraq either (if in your opinion I should, please tell me what that should be).


What a spit in the face. You owe them gratitude for fighting communisim and dictaorship. For not having to bend over and take Russian, Chinese, Vietnamese, Cuban & Iraqi Tube Steak up your Dutch Pooper.



> Are you implying that, because Holland was too small to defend itself and subsequently occupied, I have no right to speak about WW2, other past events, or even current events? How does our role during WW2 speak for itself? What's that supposed to mean?


Too small??? TOO SMALL??? You were UNPREPARED!! You were too busy picking daisys to prepare for any kind of defense!! Belgium isn't that big...they put up a hell of a fight, in WWI and WWII. You guys just bent over & took it up the pooper. And now you don't even thank those who freed you & help you avoid it happenning again.



> The only worrying aspect of it was that the people involved were all home-grown - born and raised Dutch that at some stage decided to turn radical and against the very society that fostered them.


HEEEEELLLLLLOOOOOOOOO....!!! That's what I've been teeling everyone from my first post! These people are nuts and care nothing for the West, even if they were born & raised here. You just don't get it.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2006)

I don't believe there will ever be peace between civilized Western society and the Muslim cultures, because the Muslims will always be humiliated and jealous that their toilet-culture failed and western society thrived.

Think about it, -what contribution has any Muslim country ever made to civilization?
Nothing -they have brought nothing to the table since the invention of Algebra.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

must....resist...urge....must....resist


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

> So tell me, after the Germans bombed Rotterdam to rubble, what should we have done? Let me guess: you'd keep fighting on, regardless of the fact that we were outnumbered and outgunned by 1 against 100, and being such a small country, having no chance whatsoever - even if it meant suicide? Well?


"FORTIS CADERE, CEDERE, NON POTEST"
'The Brave May Fall But Never Yield'


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> The only worrying aspect of it was that the people involved were all home-grown - born and raised Dutch that at some stage decided to turn radical and against the very society that fostered them.


I am not trying to be mean to you, Judazzz, I love ya! But please review this sentance, and go back and check out what the underlying Muslim belief is.
As far as history goes, they are peaceful in flooding a nation until they have a certain percentage, able to upset political balance. Then they push for Sharia law, then after that... ______.
So, as in WWII, and every other war, the men and women who serve and die, do it for the next generation, so that they can live with principles that we believe in, and want our children to have the ability to grow up living in.
But if no one wants a baby, and no one cares about what they believe or it means anything, by all means, let it go..

Thank you for your service Frank.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

> So tell me, after the Germans bombed Rotterdam to rubble, what should we have done? Let me guess: you'd keep fighting on, regardless of the fact that we were outnumbered and outgunned by 1 against 100, and being such a small country, having no chance whatsoever - even if it meant suicide? Well?


Are ya kidding me?? Look at the American Revolution and what crazy odds they fought against, almost certain suicide, and won. Look at the Scottish vs. the British and what they overcame. Do you even know what the word "Courage" means, Judazz?

I can't say it any better than Partick Henry: "GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME DEATH!!!"

THAT IS COURAGE. THAT IS HOW AMERICANS LIVE. AND THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > Now that remark reminds me of Hitler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The observation was not in good taste and implies associations that are altogether false.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

> mdrs: so now Europe is to blame, because we allowed islamic extremism to get a global foot hold?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


geography. the middle east is obviously closer to you. what has europe done to tell the radical muslims that what they're doing is WRONG? they're coming over here and picking a fight because we stand up to them, period. we support israel and we tell them no. you don't. that's why they don't like us. and you talk about pacifism but you also say that you accept the fact that they can't be appeased. if you can't give them what they want so that they'll stop wanting to kill you what can you do? this is europe's position. they wait and see what happens. this is why the league of nations failed. because when it came time to put men on the ground no one wanted to tow the line. this is why the un has survived this long. because aside from money and real estate, we're the dog that bites when the leash is taken off. when your neighbor has a big scary dog WE'RE the dog that bites back fastest and hardest. and that's why the radicals also have a problem with us. they know that we WILL NOT back down. when it comes time to go downrange, we're the ones who will. what should europe do? stop hamstringing the war process and frustrating the generals with stupid pc ROEs and let the military do the job it was bred to do. if allowed to do that, the west WILL win this war. let the dog off it's two foot leash. and lastly, pick up a f*cking rifle and muster to defend what you belive in. don't resent someone else for doing it for you. we're fighting for THE WORLD. this war is costly and we're shouldering most of the cost.

edit: judazz i need to take a step back and make sure you realize i'm not at odds with you. i'm confronting your opinion but i don't have a problem with you personally. i just start making arguements and i don't reaffirm that with people and they see me as hostile. we're still good, right?


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

OH, well aint this just wonderful. Yeah, "Dimplomacy!! Diplomacy!!" you hippies scream for!

These guys took your Diplomacy with a grin and stuck it right up your *ss!! When will you hippies learn???!!!!

What do you have to say about this, DannyBoy? Still think Diplomacy is the way to go with these animals??

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060922/ap_on_...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Hezbollah chief leads 'victory' rally By HUSSEIN DAKROUB, Associated Press Writer 
30 minutes ago

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Hezbollah's leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah made his first public appearance since his group's war with Israel began July 12, taking the stage Friday at a rally by hundreds of thousands of his supporters in Beirut's bombed-out suburbs. He told the crowd that that he thanks God for what he called his group's "victory" in a 34-day war with Israel.

The crowd &#151; waving hundreds of yellow Hezbollah flags &#151; roared as Nasrallah appeared waving to the crowd, flanked by his bodyguards. An announcer said, "The leader has arrived."

The U.N.-brokered cease-fire that ended fighting between the guerrillas and Israel on Aug. 14 calls for stripping Hezbollah of its weapons, but Nasrallah has been defiant.

One Shiite woman, Mira Ali, said she came in response to Nasrallah's "religious order." The 42-year-old, wearing a black shirt and pants, waved a Hezbollah flag and said: "We are with him (Nasrallah). I am here to say no to disarming Hezbollah."

Security had been stepped up in Beirut in advance of Nasrallah's arrival. Israel had threatened to kill Nasrallah during its offensive, but an attempt to assassinate him now was considered unlikely since it would risk plunging the region back into conflict.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert would not say in comments published Thursday whether Nasrallah remained a target. "There is no reason for me to notify Nasrallah through the media how we will act. We will not give him advance notice. He is holding a victory march because he has lost," Olmert told the Israeli newspaper Maariv.

The rally was being held at a barren 37-acre lot about a mile from the guerrilla group's flattened headquarters. Thousands had arrived at the site from the south by foot, in buses and in cars, chanting Nasrallah's name and waving Lebanese and Hezbollah flags. Members of Christian parties and pro-Syrian groups in northern Lebanon also traveled to the capital to participate.

Nasrallah's appearance was seen as a show of Hezbollah's strength at a time of increased friction with the Western-backed government of Prime Minister Fuad Saniora.

Hezbollah's popularity among Shiites soared after it withstood weeks of punishing Israeli bombardment and kept firing rockets into northern Israel.

The group has refused to give up its weapons following the cease-fire. But the group, backed by Syria and Iran, has come under renewed criticism from anti-Syrian factions who form a majority in Lebanon's government and accuse Hezbollah of doing Damascus' and Tehran's bidding.

Hezbollah is armed with thousands of rockets and Nasrallah has said his arsenal survived the Israeli onslaught. He boasted in a TV interview last week that the guerrillas &#151; and their weapons &#151; were still at the Israeli border in south Lebanon.

The guerrillas have long kept a low profile. They rarely carry weapons in public and have sought to calm the fears of other religious communities in Lebanon by insisting that their arms are to fight Israel and won't be turned against their fellow Lebanese. But many Christian and Druse minorities, as well as the large Sunni Muslim community, are unconvinced and have called for the state and its military to be the only armed force in the country.

As Hezbollah celebrated, Israeli soldiers continued to withdraw Friday from an area south of the coastal town of Naqoura and near Maiss al-Jabal in the northern Galilee panhandle, said a statement by the U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon, known as UNIFIL.

The statement said Indian and Ghanaian peacekeepers would set up checkpoints and conduct patrols in order to confirm the Israeli withdrawal and coordinate the deployment of Lebanese army units to the area on Saturday.

UNIFIL's commander, French Maj. Gen. Alain Pellegrini, said he expected the rest of the Israeli troops to vacate southern Lebanon by the end of the month. "We are almost there," he said.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2006)

Awesome Judazzz. Just awesome! Unfortunately, Americans (just like in the past) think they can eliminate an ideology with force. Its funny how they ask you to be greatful for what *they* (hmm...) did for you in the past, then come back and say history isnt important...only the present. I guess history is much like the all day porno channel- Only there when its convienant.



> Hezbollah's popularity among Shiites soared after it withstood weeks of punishing Israeli bombardment


I think this quote speaks volumes for that entire region.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Hezbollah's popularity among Shiites soared after it withstood weeks of punishing Israeli bombardment
> 
> I think this quote speaks volumes for that entire region.


Yeah, I think it speaks volumes for how they need to be defeated until there is not one of them left standing. And that includes the supporters.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Awesome Judazzz. Just awesome! Unfortunately, Americans (just like in the past) think they can eliminate an ideology with force. Its funny how they ask you to be greatful for what *they* (hmm...) did for you in the past, then come back and say history isnt important...only the present. I guess history is much like the all day porno channel- Only there when its convienant.


first off i think that any ideology that has said publicly and repeatedly that it won't stop until all kafirs are dead can and should be eliminated by force. especially when that ideology draws blood over and over to prove it's commitment. you don't see a german NAZI party anymore do you? sometimes there are situations where you can come up with Reaganomics and use policy to fix a problem and that's why we love people who can do that. but sometimes you have to accept the fact that someone will kill you if you don't defend yourself and then defend yourself. and if you don't believe in anything enough to fight for it danny, then i really do feel sorry for you.

and who said history wasn't important? i'd thought that both sides had produced some pretty compelling examples of history. i think you haven't read this thread. tell the truth, you read the last page at most didn't you?


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2006)

I believe in human rights, as stated bythe Universal Declaration of Rights by the General Assembly of the United Natons...December 10, 1948. And if I had to, I would fight for that.

And about the history. Maybe you should read the whole thread. Ive followed it from the first page, aswell as similar threads, and numerous times have I heard the "all of us are bad, that is history and is not important. What is important is right now."


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> I believe in human rights, as stated bythe Universal Declaration of Rights by the General Assembly of the United Natons...December 10, 1948.


Are you kidding me? THE UNITED NATIONS?














They don't even have an Army unless its the U.S. doing the fighting.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

DannyBoy17 said:


> I believe in human rights, as stated bythe Universal Declaration of Rights by the General Assembly of the United Natons...December 10, 1948. And if I had to, I would fight for that. *there are several million muslims that want to kill you because you're not a muslim. there are also several BILLION communists that want to let the muslims try to kill you and sell weapons (including nuclear weapons) to them as well. fight that because if allowed to, these people WILL kill you.
> *
> And about the history. Maybe you should read the whole thread. Ive followed it from the first page, aswell as similar threads, and numerous times have I heard the "all of us are bad, that is history and is not important. What is important is right now." *i recall looking for threads like this because i enjoy talking about this stuff. i might disagree but at i have to come online to find people willing to discuss this as much as i do. and even though you hear unnamed people discount the importance of history i've watched people IN THIS THREAD bring up numerous historical accounts to support various arguements. so i ask you to quote people in this thread saying that.*


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> The observation _was not in good taste _ and implies associations that are altogether false.


Words are only flavored with truth when it tastes bad.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

hastatus said:


> And if I had to, I would fight for that.


How about your right to live, you blind little child?? That's being threatened right now by these nutbags!!


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2006)

Scrap5000 said:


> And if I had to, I would fight for that.


How about your right to live, you blind little child?? That's being threatened right now by these nutbags!!
[/quote]

Ive read some of that book, then had it stolen. Ive also read several other books on the topic or similar topics (notably Shake Hands with the Devil).

Im not saying the UN is all that productive these days...one of my dreams was to one day become the head of the UN and to make it a valuable organization again.

Im goin to quote Madam Ebaldi again just because I think this speech best symbolizes what I believe:



> In the name of the God of Creation and Wisdom
> 
> Your Majesty, Your Royal Highnesses, Honourable Members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, Excellencies, Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2006)

mdrs said:


> I believe in human rights, as stated bythe Universal Declaration of Rights by the General Assembly of the United Natons...December 10, 1948. And if I had to, I would fight for that. *there are several million muslims that want to kill you because you're not a muslim. there are also several BILLION communists that want to let the muslims try to kill you and sell weapons (including nuclear weapons) to them as well. fight that because if allowed to, these people WILL kill you.
> *
> And about the history. Maybe you should read the whole thread. Ive followed it from the first page, aswell as similar threads, and numerous times have I heard the "all of us are bad, that is history and is not important. What is important is right now." *i recall looking for threads like this because i enjoy talking about this stuff. i might disagree but at i have to come online to find people willing to discuss this as much as i do. and even though you hear unnamed people discount the importance of history i've watched people IN THIS THREAD bring up numerous historical accounts to support various arguements. so i ask you to quote people in this thread saying that.*


[/quote]

Im not going to read through the whole thread again, so I will say that I am sorry if I was wrong in saying that the above was said in this thread (if, of course, it truely wasnt). Thats my bad! Regardless tho, I know it has been said in every other thread of similar nature.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Im goin to quote Madam Ebaldi again just because I think this speech best symbolizes what I believe:


Danny, I dunno this chick, but I wouldn't be suprised if her cousins are the first to slit your throat. While she chants "Allah Akbar". Keep trusting them, just like Hezbollah, they love it when you do that.

Re-read that Speech, Danny. She is basically saying that the world has no right to interfere with the Muslims doing what they want, and that they will do it peacefully and with respect for human rights.

Yeah, right, tust that biatch, especially when you can easily read thru the lines at what she is hinting at.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

there are no inalienable rights. other people can and do alienate our rights. which is the reason that you must defend your rights and the rights of others. fundamentalist militants do not have the right to kill me or anyone else. but they want to. let me quote something for you.

Article 13: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."

that's article 13 of the covenant of HAMAS.

let me quote the wikipedia concerning the Muslim Brotherhood which is the Adam of 20th century militant muslim and the blueprint for all terrorist orgainizations by their own admisssion.

The Muslim Brotherhood or The Muslim Brothers (Arabic: الإخوان المسلمون al-ikhwān al-muslimūn, full title "The Society of the Muslim Brothers", often simply الإخوان al-ikhwān, "the Brotherhood") is the name of a world-wide Islamist movement, which has spawned several religious and political organizations in the Middle East dedicated to the credo: "God is our objective, the Quran is our Constitution, the Prophet is our leader, struggle is our way, and death for the sake of God is the highest of our aspirations." As stated on its charter and its website, the Muslim Brotherhood seeks to install a just Islamic empire and a worldwide Caliphate, through stages designed to Islamize targeted nations by whatever means available. Although the Brotherhood itself renounced violence in the 1970s, many of its branches continue to practice violence through terrorism and assassination. Osama bin Laden, while studying at a university, was impressed by several professors with strong ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. Among them was Muhammad Qutb, an Egyptian, whose brother, the late Sayyid Qutb, had written one of the Brotherhood's most important tracts about anti-Western jihad, Signposts on the Road.

Some branches of the Muslim Brotherhood include violent groups dedicated to jihad, such as al-Jihad (Egypt), al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya (Egypt), Hamas (Palestine), and mujahideen groups in Afghanistan. These branches are normally structurally separate, yet linked by a common ideology of political Islam, as well as extensive cross-border organization and financial support.

The Muslim Brotherhood advocates the creation of Islamic government, believing that God has set out a perfect way of life and social organization in the Quran (as seen in the slogan, "The Quran is our constitution"). As such, members of the Muslim Brotherhood believe that disagreeing with them is tantamount to disagreeing with Allah, as stated by the former leader Mustafa Mashhour: "whoever stands against the Muslim Brotherhood is also standing against God and His Prophet." [1] It expresses its interpretation of Islam through a strict religious approach to social issues such as the role of women, but also believes that Islam enjoins man to strive for social justice, the eradication of poverty and corruption, and political freedoms as defined by the Islamic state. It has previously been and continues to be strongly opposed to colonialism, and was an important actor in the struggle against Western military and economic domination in Egypt and other Muslim nations during the early 20th century. Their goal as stated by founder Hassan al-Banna was the "doctrine of reclaiming Islam's manifest destiny; an empire, founded in the seventh century, that stretched from Spain to Indonesia."

The Brotherhood is one of the most influential movements in the Islamic world, and especially so in the Arab world. The first Muslim Brotherhood was founded in Egypt in 1928, and Egypt is still considered the center of the movement; it is generally weaker in the Maghreb, or North Africa, than in the Arab Levant. Brotherhood branches form the main opposition to the governments in several countries in the Arab world, such as Egypt, Syria and Jordan, and are politically active to some extent in nearly every Muslim country. There are also diaspora branches in several Western nations, composed by immigrants previously active in the Brotherhood in their home countries.

The movement is immensely influential in many Muslim countries, and where legally possible, it often operates important networks of Islamic charities, guaranteeing it a support base among Muslim poor. However, most of the countries where the Brotherhood is active are ruled by undemocratic regimes. As a consequence, the movement is banned in several Arab nations, and the lack of a democratic system prevents it from gaining power through elections. Inconsistent with popular belief in the West, the Muslim Brotherhood normally does not pursue its goals through acts of terror. However, the Brotherhood has advocated martyrdom to fight Zionism. For example, the Brotherhood views terrorist acts by Hamas as a legitimate struggle against Israel, despite targeting both the Israeli military and civilians.

Many of the Brotherhood's writings in the Arab world and in the US have argued that the September 11th attacks were a proper response to US actions in the world. In the US, the EU, and throughout the Arab world, the Brotherhood is often regarded by experts as the source of all modern jihadi terrorism. In July 2005, Arab columnist and former Kuwaiti official Dr. Ahmad Al-Rabi, wrote that the "beginnings of all of the religious terrorism that we are witnessing today were in the Muslim Brotherhood's ideology."

these people don't respect your views. in fact, they'll kill you because they hate you and your beliefs. they've said they don't want to negotiate. you're under attack too, dude.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

mdrs said:


> these people don't respect your views. in fact, they'll kill you because they hate you and your beliefs. they've said they don't want to negotiate. you're under attack too, dude.


It's ok, it's alright, he's got sumthin that they gonna like...
He will grow their pretty poppy flowers in his garden of eden so they can sell opium & heroin to their followers to keep them calm once all the infidels have been killed off & they have no one else to fight.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

Scrap5000 said:


> It's ok, it's alright, he's got sumthin that they gonna like...
> He will grow their pretty poppy flowers in his garden of eden so they can sell opium & heroin to their followers to keep them calm once all the infidels have been killed off & they have no one else to fight.


that does a disservice to you and what you're representing, man. at most, he's misguided but don't attack him. that's why we're on a higher moral high ground then people who attack others without cause. but it's a fine line.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2006)

> these people don't respect your views. in fact, they'll kill you because they hate you and your beliefs. they've said they don't want to negotiate. you're under attack too, dude.


Typical.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

mdrs said:


> It's ok, it's alright, he's got sumthin that they gonna like...
> He will grow their pretty poppy flowers in his garden of eden so they can sell opium & heroin to their followers to keep them calm once all the infidels have been killed off & they have no one else to fight.


that does a disservice to you and what you're representing, man. at most, he's misguided but don't attack him. that's why we're on a higher moral high ground then people who attack others without cause. but it's a fine line.
[/quote]

I'm not attacking him; I'm saying he doesn't have to worry b/c they will keep him around for his flower growing skills. And he knows that, so he's not worried, either...


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

DannyBoy17 said:


> > these people don't respect your views. in fact, they'll kill you because they hate you and your beliefs. they've said they don't want to negotiate. you're under attack too, dude.
> 
> 
> Typical.


typical? i showed you in their own words what they want. what's typical? you think i made it up? you want links? do you even know who the muslim brotherhood is?


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> *Article 13: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."*that's article 13 of the covenant of HAMAS.
> 
> let me quote the wikipedia concerning the Muslim Brotherhood which is the Adam of 20th century militant muslim and the blueprint for all terrorist orgainizations by their own admisssion.
> 
> The Muslim Brotherhood or The Muslim Brothers (Arabic: الإخوان المسلمون al-ikhwān al-muslimūn, full title "The Society of the Muslim Brothers", often simply الإخوان al-ikhwān, "the Brotherhood") is the name of a world-wide Islamist movement, which has spawned several religious and political organizations in the Middle East dedicated to the credo: "God is our objective, the Quran is our Constitution, the Prophet is our leader, struggle is our way, and death for the sake of God is the highest of our aspirations." As stated on its charter and its website, the Muslim Brotherhood seeks to install a just Islamic empire and a worldwide Caliphate, through stages designed to Islamize targeted nations by whatever means available. Although the Brotherhood itself renounced violence in the 1970s, many of its branches continue to practice violence through terrorism and assassination. Osama bin Laden, while studying at a university, was impressed by several professors with strong ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. Among them was Muhammad Qutb, an Egyptian, whose brother, the late Sayyid Qutb, had written one of the Brotherhood's most important tracts about anti-Western jihad, Signposts on the Road.


Facts are stubborn things.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2006)

mdrs said:


> > these people don't respect your views. in fact, they'll kill you because they hate you and your beliefs. they've said they don't want to negotiate. you're under attack too, dude.
> 
> 
> Typical.


typical? i showed you in their own words what they want. what's typical? you think i made it up? you want links? do you even know who the muslim brotherhood is?
[/quote]

AHH!

Sorry man, I meant to quote the other post by Scrap.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

fargo: we can't confront terrorism with the public hamstringing the process. how long would it take to hear about how now the imperialist US is invading lebannon and who knows what else. this is a lukewarm war in that the water's not hot or cold but the fire's still underneath. the west doesn't see what's at stake and it just lets the fire burn. think about boiling frogs. it might take a nuke in a major city or two before the news interrupts american idol long enough to force people to see.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2006)

Wait, who said I supported Hamas?

I dont support Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood. Isnt the Muslim Brotherhood the cowards responsible for whats happening in Darfur?

I was under the impression that this was a political/religious movement tho, not a completely ingrained belief. Didnt the PM of Saudi Arabia call this group "The mother of all Terror"?


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Wait, who said I supported Hamas?
> 
> I dont support Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood. Isnt the Muslim Brotherhood the cowards responsible for whats happening in Darfur?
> 
> I was under the impression that this was a political/religious movement tho, not a completely ingrained belief. Didnt the PM of Saudi Arabia call this group "The mother of all Terror"?


yes. you're right about that but they still operate there.


> The Muslim Brotherhood's brand of Islam and Islamic politics differs from the strict Wahhabi creed officially held by the state of Saudi Arabia. Despite this, the Brotherhood has been tolerated by the Saudi government, and maintains a presence in the country. Aside from tolerating the Brotherhood organization, Prince Nayef of Saudi Arabia commented that the Muslim Brotherhood was the "mother of all terror."


 they're in every country in the middle east. in some countries like jordan, they're the only political group allowed to operate under pain of treason except the monarchy. they're into politics. they assasinate people. they fund terrorism. HAMAS is merely the palestinian chapter of the brotherhood. they are the first generation of the terrorists we're dealing with now. but they're culture, man. look at iran. again i'm quoting


> No Islamic country has been as impressed with the Muslim Brotherhood as Iran. Fadaian Islam, the Islamic fundamentalist organization active in Iran in the 1950s and 60s, was highly impressed by the Muslim Brotherhood.


 these people will attack us, man. that's why this is such an issue. watch arabic news and see what they're saying in iran. trust me, they're not as bound by pacifism as you are.

i believe that you're committed to human rights. that's a good thing. but these fundamentalists always end up being brutal, tyranical murderors. read about what ayatollah said and did to people concerning human rights. ask fargo about the religious badges people are required to wear in iran. despite all the prison scandals and everything having to do with this war, these people are your enemy like it or not. and if you give them the time they want and depend on, they will come for you.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Wait, who said I supported Hamas?
> 
> I dont support Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood. Isnt the Muslim Brotherhood the cowards responsible for whats happening in Darfur?
> 
> I was under the impression that this was a political/religious movement tho, not a completely ingrained belief. Didnt the PM of Saudi Arabia call this group "The mother of all Terror"?


Who said you said that?

Anyways, Danny, this is a belief that they blow up innocent civilians for...they want to kill you unless you become a muslim. I am not making that up, I am not spreading illogical fear. They have said it themselves over & over, and have done many violent acts to prove they are serious.

Either that, or it's a veil to hide their desire to just control the world for greed and power, and are using this as a brainwashing technique to get dumb people to fight for them.

Either way, you convert or die.

WHY don't you believe it? WHAT will it take for you to believe it?


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2006)

Scrap, I do believe it.

And thus, we return to my point of how it is the leaders of these countries, and the bully/religious zealots which are the true threat. I believe they need to be removed from power, with force.

But I will never support the "nuking" of a population which has done nothing to deserve this.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Scrap, I do believe it.
> 
> And thus, we return to my point of how it is the leaders of these countries, and the bully/religious zealots which are the true threat. I believe they need to be removed from power, with force.
> 
> But I will never support the "nuking" of a population which has done nothing to deserve this.


danny, i know that's been thrown around here but i doubt many regardless of affiliation believe it's the way. but you have to understand we can't go into iran and take out the ayatollahs and leave. it's got to me the entire region. we need the west united and committed unlike the last 1000 years. we need to do it before iran gets nukes. we need to stop bickering and wake up. this NEEDS to happen soon. i promise you, as unstable as the world may be, it will become a much dangerous place to live if iran has acess to nuclear materials.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2006)

> We eliminated the Nazis and Japanese by force. Hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed before the Atomic bomb was ever set off.


Did we really tho? Corrupt tyrants, you may have killed and eliminated. But the same anti-zionist/semetic (whatever you want to call it) beliefs still exist today. Communism still exists. Fascism still exists.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Scrap, I do believe it.
> 
> And thus, we return to my point of how it is the leaders of these countries, and the bully/religious zealots which are the true threat. I believe they need to be removed from power, with force.
> 
> But I will never support the "nuking" of a population which has done nothing to deserve this.


Danny, this isn't a snake where you chop off the head and it dies. This is more like killer bees..you eradicate one colony & it doesn't matter b/c it already sprouted 50 other colonies, that have already sprouted other colonies as well.

The entire species needs to be eradicated, or it will just continue to come back.

Genocide? I doubt it's genocide when the bees are trying to kill you first for no damn reason.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2006)

I disagree. I believe it is more like a snake. I guess that is the fundamental difference between your opinion and mine.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

> Danny, this isn't a snake where you chop off the head and it dies. This is more like killer bees..you eradicate one colony & it doesn't matter b/c it already sprouted 50 other colonies, that have already sprouted other colonies as well.
> 
> The entire species needs to be eradicated, or it will just continue to come back.
> 
> Genocide? I doubt it's genocide when the bees are trying to kill you first for no damn reason.


this is where you're wrong. wholesale slaughter is not the way to win this. they're not bees or snakes they're people. you can't kill one and save the world but you can't save the world by wiping a large part of it off the face of the earth.

but danny, we do can't stop with iran. it's not just iran. it has to be the whole middle east. you'll never stop the evil of men. it won't happen. but we have to operate under the assumption that we can try. that means using the sword, when there's no other way.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> > Danny, this isn't a snake where you chop off the head and it dies. This is more like killer bees..you eradicate one colony & it doesn't matter b/c it already sprouted 50 other colonies, that have already sprouted other colonies as well.
> >
> > The entire species needs to be eradicated, or it will just continue to come back.
> >
> ...


Actually, I'm sure we could by wiping out every one of them and their supporters. No one left to try to kill us then. Until the next threat, of course.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

> Actually, I'm sure we could by wiping out every one of them and their supporters. No one left to try to kill us then. Until the next threat, of course.


no. you're talking about the slaughter of an entire region and all the unfortunate souls there at the time. that IS wrong. war? fine. great. but not nuclear destruction.

oh and btw, it was timothy mcveigh and as yet unidentified others.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

mdrs said:


> > Actually, I'm sure we could by wiping out every one of them and their supporters. No one left to try to kill us then. Until the next threat, of course.
> 
> 
> no. you're talking about the slaughter of an entire region and all the unfortunate souls there at the time. that IS wrong. war? fine. great. but not nuclear destruction.
> ...


Hey man, they all wanted us dead way before I suggested that. How innocent does that make them? And just like it was driopped on Japan to save an estimated 1,000,000 American Soldiers' lives, so should it be done now to save the rest of ours.

I would gladly keep pushing the button until they surrendered, or eventually wipe out every single last one of them if they don't, rather than lose another single one of ours. And I wouldn't even lose any sleep over it.

Call me a monster if you will, but that's the kind of resolve needed to end this crap that THEY started. Seeing one single 18 yr old American boy return home safely to his family would be all I'd need to rest easy at night.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I disagree with the snake and killer bee analogies...

I find it to be more like a football with seven stitches.

I have no idea why.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

Scrap5000 said:


> > Actually, I'm sure we could by wiping out every one of them and their supporters. No one left to try to kill us then. Until the next threat, of course.
> 
> 
> no. you're talking about the slaughter of an entire region and all the unfortunate souls there at the time. that IS wrong. war? fine. great. but not nuclear destruction.
> ...


Hey man, they all wanted us dead way before I suggested that. How innocent does that make them? And just like it was driopped on Japan to save an estimated 1,000,000 American Soldiers' lives, so should it be done now to save the rest of ours.

I would gladly keep pushing the button until they surrendered, or eventually wipe out every single last one of them if they don't, rather than lose another single one of ours. And I wouldn't even lose any sleep over it.

Call me a monster if you will, but that's the kind of resolve needed to end this crap that THEY started. Seeing one single 18 yr old American boy return home safely to his family would be all I'd need to rest easy at night.
[/quote]

if you belive that then i'm glad you don't have the clout to make that call. they're not innocent but that doesn't mean it's cool to just level a part of the world. generally in life you try to be better than your enemy not the guy with the bigger gun. you talk about 18 year old americans coming home but i say what's the point in any of this if we become just as bad as they are? how do we respect our dead by making a mockery of what they died for?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> acestro Posted Today, 03:02 PM


Is that an inflated or deflated football? I can't tell the difference in your remark or here.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

mdrs said:


> These animals are allowed to attack and hide and nothing is done to them, because of the libs and the media forcing us to fight like wussies.
> 
> And when you add in the fact that they have the support of these muslim governments who train them and harbor them and drum up support from their people and allow them to hold rallys, well then you've got a very different situation than just some skinheads sitting in a basement yelling "***********!"


I disagree that the media is forcing us to do anything. Apathy is the great enemy right now. Too many Americans, I hate to say, have no interest in politics, economics, history, or religion. They just meander along oblivious to the fact that we are soon to be under relentless attack. After 911 Bush could have gone old school on just about any Islamic stronghold he had wished. That's how he got away with invading Iraq. But now that he's entered into operation perpetual turmoil there, the administration has lost credibility, which has empowered the media to gain credibility they do not deserve. I guarantee that if something like 911 happens again, the media will lose much of its' influence and we will need stronger leadership. The wisest thing anyone could do, IMO, is start endorsing leaders like Tancredo. I honestly think with the lack of competent candidates for 2008, the leader who sends the strongest military message/national security/borders could easily win with the proper management.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > acestro Posted Today, 03:02 PM
> 
> 
> Is that an inflated or deflated football? I can't tell the difference in your remark or here.


oh snap

I still have no idea what's going on then...


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

mdrs said:


> if you belive that then i'm glad you don't have the clout to make that call. they're not innocent but that doesn't mean it's cool to just level a part of the world. generally in life you try to be better than your enemy not the guy with the bigger gun. you talk about 18 year old americans coming home but i say what's the point in any of this if we become just as bad as they are? how do we respect our dead by making a mockery of what they died for?


We have tried to be better, and it doesn't work. Look at the peace accord that condoleeza rice brokered with Hezbollah...they are wiping their *sses with it even as Isreal withdraws...the ground os still warm from their footprints and already they are making a mockery of it.

And how is Isreal supposed to destroy Hezbollah and not atack "civilians" when the whole population is Hezbollah? When the entire population rallys around them and cheers them for kidnapping israeli soldiers and defying the peace accord and for firing rockets into Israel?? That, in my opinion, makes them part of Hezbollah as well, and therefore legit targets, so wipe all of them out already.

Man, on second thought, I've changed my mind: don't nuke the areas with oil...daisy cutter the hell out of those instead. Just nuke the rest. It would be be really nice to fill my tank for $2 from now on.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

Scrap5000 said:


> if you belive that then i'm glad you don't have the clout to make that call. they're not innocent but that doesn't mean it's cool to just level a part of the world. generally in life you try to be better than your enemy not the guy with the bigger gun. you talk about 18 year old americans coming home but i say what's the point in any of this if we become just as bad as they are? how do we respect our dead by making a mockery of what they died for?


We have tried to be better, and it doesn't work. Look at the peace accord that condoleeza rice brokered with Hezbollah...they are wiping their *sses with it even as Isreal withdraws...the ground os still warm from their footprints and already they are making a mockery of it.

And how is Isreal supposed to destroy Hezbollah and not atack "civilians" when the whole population is Hezbollah? When the entire population rallys around them and cheers them for kidnapping israeli soldiers and defying the peace accord and for firing rockets into Israel?? That, in my opinion, makes them part of Hezbollah as well, and therefore legit targets, so wipe all of them out already.

Man, on second thought, I've changed my mind: don't nuke the areas with oil...daisy cutter the hell out of those instead. Just nuke the rest. It would be be really nice to fill my tank for $2 from now on.
[/quote]

only 10% of the government is hezbollah. you show me hard facts that every single person in the middle east is fundamentalist islam and i'll agree with you. you can't find those facts, so stop banking on the assumption.

and BTW, if we can't be better than our enemies there's no point in fighting at all. if we're not better than them then we have no right to say that what they're doing is wrong.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> acestro Posted Yesterday, 06:58 PM ...oh snap
> 
> I still have no idea what's going on then...


Maybe we can get them to blow.....no sense playing with a deflated ball.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

mdrs said:


> only 10% of the government is hezbollah. you show me hard facts that every single person in the middle east is fundamentalist islam and i'll agree with you. you can't find those facts, so stop banking on the assumption.


Only 10% of the govt. is Hezbollah in name only. They have the dominant military force in the region, and the objective of the last war, successful by most measures, was to gather majority public sentiment in favor of Hezbollah. They are the most powerful force in Lebanon, otherwise the Lebanese govt and military







would force them to abide by the pathetic UN agreement. Iran is the most powerful Islamic country in the region, and the Hezzies are their obvious proxy.

As far as obliterating the region goes, if WW2 taught us anything, you cannot win without killing civilians. A ruthless relentless opponent makes it that way. Right now the USA is still fighting the politically correct battle in places like Afghanistan, but if we get attacked to any considerable degree, that will all change. It may or may not require nukes, but it will require enough force to encourage submisssion. If we wait till Iran has nukes, our leverage will diminish, as it has with N Korea.


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