# END OF THE ROAD



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

Im sad to say but i really am considering giving up on P keeping, iv had Ps for only 4-5 months now and all iv had is problems, the first tank leaked on me in about 1.5 months of keeping them, now my present tank has a pH of 4-5,my 2nd tank is going through its second cycle???? with fish!!!! the water is cloudy and plants just look sh*t now as leafs are begining to wilt, i have tried all that i can and know to fix the problems, buffers for pH but they only go back down the following day, the cycles are just leaving me at a loss because iv tried the bacterias etc, the plants are gradually dieing even with light and firtalizers????

i would love to keep these fish but it just doesnt seem to work, some one talk me round please?


----------



## boxer (Sep 11, 2003)

stop running away from your problems, if you quit this might as well quit life. soften your water and add seashells or rocks that cause pH to jump up or was it the other way around. ask around in water chemistry. i think my pH was too high so I added a rock to lower it.. so it is the other way around. find something more base like


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

pH needs to go up, i dont want to give up but i bet no one has had all these problems AT ONCE?


----------



## OoH (Nov 28, 2003)

just give up :nod:


----------



## wrathofgeo (Aug 23, 2003)

stop whining, you're not going to get anywhere like that. just fix the problems, and about the plants, take them out and first work on your water parameters, then deal with live plants if you want to later, get 1 thing done at a time.

george


----------



## jackburton (Nov 25, 2003)

i agree its tuff but sort it out if you dont want to keep them dont but other wise get rid of plants start fresh and sort out your water proplems


----------



## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

I'd toss the plants too. They caused me nothing but headaches. 
I doubt anyone on here that actually has no problems with plants.


----------



## wrathofgeo (Aug 23, 2003)

winkyee said:


> I'd toss the plants too. They caused me nothing but headaches.
> I doubt anyone on here that actually has no problems with plants.


 that reminds me, live plants are a pain in the ass, i must have spent $50.00 on all these live plants that were mailed to me only to see them rot and wither away, now all i have is my nice, hardy amazon swords that are multiplying and living perfect, thats all for live plants in my tank from now on.


----------



## fury (Nov 30, 2003)

don't give up on p's!! all you need to do is make it easy get rid of live plant's give thing's time to work don't sleep with test tubes in your hand sometimes this will happen to me every thing goes wrong and i want to give up but i step back and let ph up and down and all those pharmaceuticals do there gob without me (just don't hang over your tank and you'll be fine







:smile:


----------



## pamonster (Jun 26, 2003)

Your problems are miniscule, just fix them.


----------



## blastinonfoos (Jul 17, 2003)

invest in a biowheel or an emp400, that might fix the ph problem and atleast maintain the problem. also do 60% water changes every 3 days for this upcoming week(on ur low ph tank)


----------



## AVO (Dec 21, 2003)

DO you have well water?


----------



## fluidnyc (Oct 15, 2003)

Thats crazy.. atleast find a better reason to give it up.

Like..

My dog ate my Piranhas :smile: 
-

What you gonna do with your 5 small P's?


----------



## DiXoN (Jan 31, 2003)

test the ph of your water straght from the tap if its low you can remove the std gravel and try the crushed coral gravel used for cichlid tanks that keeps the ph higher.
in the uk most tap water is around neutral ph or higher there probably is something that is causing it to go that low so if you are going to change the gravel remove the filter and keep it in some of the tank water drain the tank remove gravel add new stuff and new water treat water as you would with a water change add the filter and take it from there.
as for your other tank just wait it will cycle and what is the ph in that tank compared to the other one.
dixon


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

you guys dont understand, all the problems are in ONE tank!!! tap ph is 9!


----------



## hays98 (Mar 8, 2003)

ill take your sh*t if your quiting
you got







by your p's :laugh:


----------



## DiXoN (Jan 31, 2003)

rbP NUT said:


> you guys dont understand, all the problems are in ONE tank!!! tap ph is 9!


 its got to be something in your tank forget the gravel change but i would still flatten the whole thing but keeping the filter in tank water and risk a big water change leaving the tank bare remove the whole lot wood, plants something is making the ph drop and you need to figure out what it is you should be trying to lower your ph if tap water is 9 and not the other way round
dixon


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

its in the middle of a cycle though?


----------



## DiXoN (Jan 31, 2003)

rbP NUT said:


> its in the middle of a cycle though?


 what fish are in with it and how long has it been cycling
dixon


----------



## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Hmmmm....

It sounds like you are having more than one problem at once. Hang in there! Maintaining a tank can be a pain in the butt if you get multiple problems at once.

First of all...What do you have in the tank?

Second...How long did you cycle your tank before putting in live fish? When you did put in live fish, how many did you put in?

Third...How often are you vacuum your gravel? And how much are you vacuuming at once? Are you vacuuming the entire bottom or are you doing half....then doing the other have the next time?

GET RID OF THE PLANTS UNTIL WE GET THIS STABLIZED! Plants can be a royal pain in the rear, especially for a beginner (not saying that you are). I won't even try to tank on live plants, and I have been doing tanks for years (part of it is that I am just plain ol' chicken)

It really sounds to me like you are having a bacterial spike. But I can't say more until you let me know what is going on by answering my questions above.

Hang in there...don't give up on them yet. That is why we are here at Piranha Fury! To help others deal with these pain in the butt problems. If I can't figure it out...Judazzz might be able to. He is great with this kind of stuff!

I am going to look into your PH problem.

Hope to see you respond soon!

Jeffrey


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

PastorJeff said:


> Hmmmm....
> 
> It sounds like you are having more than one problem at once. Hang in there! Maintaining a tank can be a pain in the butt if you get multiple problems at once.
> 
> ...


 ok i have 5 baby rbs, i put them in a new tank because the old tank sprung a leak, it took 2.5 weeks for the cycle to run while fish where in there, used R/O water ph and cycle went mental.


----------



## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

First of all: people, if you have nothing to add besides jokes or smart-ass remarks, do us a favor and stay the hell away from here. I'm sure you would not appreciate such comments either if you were in a similar position.
rbP NUT could use some good help and advice - if you don't have to share something of use here, just go and annoy someone else...









___________________________________________________________

It looks like you have quite a problem there, rbP NUT... :sad: 
Did it start after you started using R/O water? If so, than I wouldn't use it again. Instead, use Black Water Extract or peat to lower the pH in a natural way.

What I would do is letting the cycle run its course: to alleviate the effects of high nitrItes, add a bit of salt (one teaspoon should be enough). To avoid ammonia burns, do daily small water changes (about 10%): enough to dissolve ammonia levels a bit, but not enough to get the cycling process out of whack.

I'm don't really know what you could do for a long-term solution of the problem, so I'm going to move this to the Water Chemistry forum: maybe DonH can give you some good advice.

Good luck, and don't give up


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

thanks judazzz








paul


----------



## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

do me a favor and take a gallon or so of your tap water and let it sit for a day or to then test it for PH once again. I am guessing it will drop to the high 7s or low 8s.
Dont take this the wronge way eather but are you shure you are using your test kits right? A PH of 9 is a *very* hard thing to get. don't use R/O water. It lacks trace elements and has a far too low PH. Please test your water strait from the tap and post the results here.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

i promise you guys the water is at least 9, its off the scale, il do the standing thing with the tap water, as for the right procedures with the test kits, im afraid to say i am using them right for sure, only wish i wasnt.


----------



## Guest (Dec 28, 2003)

The low pH and the tank recycling may be connected. At very low pH, the bacteria stop functioning and die off. When the pH increases, the bacteria resume eating and multiplying and the tank re-cycles.

This is why sodas like Coca Cola have phosporic acid as a preservative. Normally, sugar-water would foul very quickly, but the acid brings the pH down low enough that it decomposes very slowly. I think the pH is like 3 or something.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

i also read ammonia becomes even more toxic the higher the pH? what is a good ph?


----------



## X-D-X (Jul 3, 2003)

7.0 is good and i think you should not give up if we all quit after a few problems Mike(Xenon) would not have a good site we all are here to discuss things and fix them not leave!!


----------



## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

also to add to your experiment list...add dechlorinator (if you use it) to anouther bucket of water and let it set. Also a KH and GH test will help a ton.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

ok tomorrow on my list is a kh and gh test kit, done the de clor water il get a bucket with out


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

by the way guys thanks to the members who sent the genuine replies, you have given me that little extra ooompf to keep going, i also forget to mention that i have a freshly made 90g that im giving till the 2nd of jan for the sealent to fully dry out before considering transfering my ps, should i transfer, i thought i could add the old gravel plus some new, filters and water etc and just top up with tap? this might help all my problems after all that extra water 60g could help withph and ammonia etc? i have to say id sure miss going on this site if i did pack it in, you guys


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I would figure out your current situation before transfering them to a different tank. Also, it really doesnt matter what fish you keep, the water chem is the same so if you are planning on keeping fish you need to figure out your water issues.
Good luck


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

One last thing....Just use tap water. Your fish will be able to adapt to a higher ph much better than one that is constantly changing. My ph is high in my area, but if you aclimate your fish to this they will be fine. Using R/O water will only make keeping a tank much harder and you will need to test it prior to adding it to your tank.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

thanks grosse gurke, ps are the only fish i keep and would keep, i understand the water issue and am going to give it my best shot.


----------



## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

Glad to hear that you are not giving up on this hobby... Just go to your LFS and ask them what's the pH of their water. Chances are, it's coming from the same water source. If they can keep a business running with that water, you can definitely keep piranha in the same water. I would by another pH test kit (preferably another brand) along with a KH test kit. Give us the readings then and we'll work from there. Good luck.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

ok guys today i went and bought the API MASTER TEST KIT,

API results:
ph 6 (suspect lower because range's lowest is 6)
ammonia (NH3/NH4+) off the scale >7.0ppm *
nitrIte 0ppm

TETRAtest (old testers)
ph 4-5 (broad range)
ammonia (NH3/NH4+)0ppm *
nitrIte <0.3ppm
nitrAte 12.5ppm

* WTF?

i thought it couldn't get any worse, so what do you guys think, they are pretty similar results except for the ammonia. only suggestion is that the ammonia bottle for the TETRAtest says NH3 on the bottles but NH3/NH4+ on the pack along with the saying total ammonia? started doing 10% water changes daily, 2nd one today. water is still cloudy but fish seem healthy.


----------



## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

I'm not really clear on your readings... So which ammonia test is reading free ammonia and which one is reading total ammonia? It would make sense that the Tetra test kit is reading only the free ammonia because at a pH of 6, your free ammonia would virtually be zero (it's actually 0.00447 ppm, assuming temp at 80 degrees F, pH of 6, and total ammonia of 7 ppm).

If this is the case, your fish are relatively safe but you will need to stabilize your pH more toward neutral for your tank to cycle properly. Have you thought of adding crushed coral to your filter? That should help buffer the water and pull the pH up as a result.


----------



## mattmatt123 (Nov 13, 2003)

its just a problem you have to work though its worth it in the long run


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

ok just read the packaging and inlets of ammonia testers, both are total ammonia, im reluctant to use coral at the moment, im hoping daily water changes will solve the problem because my tap is ph 9. im thinking of opening up my new 404 iv got laying around and fill it with purely carbon? any ideas?


----------



## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

rbP NUT said:


> ok just read the packaging and inlets of ammonia testers, both are total ammonia, im reluctant to use coral at the moment, im hoping daily water changes will solve the problem because my tap is ph 9. im thinking of opening up my new 404 iv got laying around and fill it with purely carbon? any ideas?


 If both of your test kits are measuring total ammonia, then one of them is WAY off. Try bringing a sample to your LFS and see what results they yield. As for the water changes, if your tap water has a pH of 9, you can potentially stress your fish by fluctuating the pH too quickly (or worse yet, convert the ammonium to free ammonia). Also, it seems your water lacks buffering capacity so doing frequent water changes with water that has pH will only result in high fluctuations. You need to buffer the water. Many aquarists have used crushed coral to resolve low pH problems. IMO, it's a good, safe start.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

could you please elaborate on water buffering please? 
thanks paul.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

oh also, if i put 2 trays crushed coral and two trays carbon in the fluval, good idea or not?


----------



## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

Buffering capacity is basically the water's ability to keep pH stable. KH (carbonate hardness) is the measurement used to determine it. Think of it as a sponge... As food decays and also the nitrogen cycle does its thing, acids are released that will bring your pH down. Carbonates in the water neutralizes these acids to keep pH stable. Once the number of carbonates is used up, pH will drop or crash. There are commercial buffers available to help (usually carbonate buffers to increase pH and phosphate buffers to decrease it), but there are other products that you can use to increase and stabilize your pH (baking soda, crushed coral, limestone chips, crushed oyster shells).

For your filter, I suggest you put one tray of crush coral in your filter and see if that helps.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

by the way my kh reads 0


----------



## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

rbP NUT said:


> by the way my kh reads 0


 It can't... or else all your fish would be dead.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

nope its 0, or should i say 0-50ppm, the API says:
fill vial with 5ml of water
add 1 drop of test solution
it says the solution should go orangey-yellow from a blue when the kh is est.
each drop counts as 1*dkh
MINE DIDNT EVEN GO BLUE!


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

how many table spoons of bicarbonate of soda will work? the tank is a 30g? thanks


----------



## Chunkis (Nov 2, 2003)

The more chemicals u add to teh water the mroe messed up it will be. 
One chemical to harden teh water might affect ur ph level. stuff like. 
when ur feed ur piranhas...do u take out teh leftover food? 
And someone said a 60% water change every three days?????? with ur p still in teh tank?!!!!
Dont do that. u'll kill ur fish. 
a 20% water change every three days.
I would start with one piranha then when the tank stuff is good get more.
so u might have to sell a couple of them.
mabe...
Dont give up on it though.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

the bicarbonate of soda worked, i have crystal clear water and a perfect stable ph of 6.5 just to tackle the slight ammonia and nitrites i might just be pulling through now, i have cut feeding right down.


----------



## BanditBrother (Nov 8, 2003)

Dont give it up m8!! Just try and wrk one thing out at a time!! You'll figure it out soon!! Remove everythin and add the things 1 at a time and test till u find the culprit!!!


----------



## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

"nope its 0, or should i say 0-50ppm, the API says:
fill vial with 5ml of water
add 1 drop of test solution
it says the solution should go orangey-yellow from a blue when the kh is est.
each drop counts as 1*dkh
MINE DIDNT EVEN GO BLUE! "

You need to keep adding the chemical till it does turn blue then you follow the instructions on the pacage to determine the ppm.

I have been following the thread from the begining and you have confulsd the hell out of me now.....You PH out of the tap is 9 correct? You added Crushed coral and it *droped* to 6.5 :rock: Makes no sence to me? did I miss something?


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

Black-Phoenix said:


> "nope its 0, or should i say 0-50ppm, the API says:
> fill vial with 5ml of water
> add 1 drop of test solution
> it says the solution should go orangey-yellow from a blue when the kh is est.
> ...


 LMAO, your confused! your not the only one, ok here goes, i have tap ph of around 9. my tank consisted of a R/O tap mix, the ph fell drastically to as low as 4 if not lower? i tested the kh, the colour of the liquid is orange, its says its ment to go blue then orangey-yellow. i didnt add coral then, i added bicarbonate of soda to help but it went back to a low ph yesterday again so i did another water change and added more bi carb, removed dying plants too, today i opened my new fluval 404 and filled the bottom tray with floss that i just left in my feeder tank laying on the bottom to gather bacteria and a little bio max, 2nd tray was crushed coral 3rd was 1 section a ammonia, nitrite, nitrate & phosphate resin remover and bio max in the other, the top tray is soley biomax. put that on my tank so now iv got 3 filters on a 30g lol, im getting them ready for the 100g transfer where im gonna add my wet/dry too. so far ph is perfect, 6.5







the water has never been so clear and all left is to deal with the little ammonia problem. the fish are really healthy and the pleco is still shitting every where.lol


----------



## Chunkis (Nov 2, 2003)

is 6.5 to low, then u must have added to much crushed coral. i just read a couple posts. hopfully i didnt say somthing already mentioned.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

Chunkis said:


> is 6.5 to low, then u must have added to much crushed coral. i just read a couple posts. hopfully i didnt say somthing already mentioned.


 6.5 is ment to be a perfect ph for piranhas, its slightly acidic at this mark which suit the p down to the ground as they are an acidic loving fish


----------



## andymel (Oct 27, 2003)

Hope everything works out. If this hobby is really for you then you will survive this. I believe we have all had our nightmares and disasters if you have been in the hobby long enough.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

andymel said:


> Hope everything works out. If this hobby is really for you then you will survive this. I believe we have all had our nightmares and disasters if you have been in the hobby long enough.


 kind and greatly appreciated words andymel







thank you


----------



## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

6.5 isn't bad but be carfull about skipping water changes or it will dive to dangerious lvlvs fast.

Also a hint with the Fluval, Put the filter floss in the top tray so that when the water finnaly hits it most all the particals have been filter out already. Otherwise it will clogg too fast.

Congrats on your current situation! How do you plan to regulate you PH when you change water? Mix R/O with tap to get 6.5? I would set your 10gal up with Straight tap water and some drift wood and see what happens after a day 3 day a week ect. Be shur eto run a filter and put some feeders in there..just life 3-5 don't make the bio load too high. I will be very curiouse to see if and when the PH lowers.

BTW what were the rezults of leaveing the water out to set for a few days?


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

ph of the tap remains the same, everything is great with a steady ph but ammonia is a bastard, too high.


----------



## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

is there any amonia in your tap water? With three filters running on a 30gal with 4 small RBPs I wounder why it is so high.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

Black-Phoenix said:


> is there any amonia in your tap water? With three filters running on a 30gal with 4 small RBPs I wounder why it is so high.


 i havent got a clue why the filters dont seem to be harbouring the bacteria but i know when i test the tap for ammonia its 0, i might let it stand for a couple of days and test again, i vac the gravel every 2 days now!







i think i might upgrade the 30g to the new 100g i have and double the doses of bio spira cos iv just ordered in a batch.


----------



## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

If you are using Prime or Ammo-Lock, your ammonia test kit will not work unless it uses salicylate based reagents. Most ammonia test kits use Nessler's method which will yield false positive readings when using products that detoxify ammonia.


----------



## rbP NUT (Dec 2, 2003)

i added a drop of prime to a mixed ammonia test sample and the clour became clear within minutes, i did the same with ammo lock and the colour remained???
not sure what it means. shall i do the move into the bigger tank and leave just the old water in and every week instead of doing a water change just add 20% till the tank is full? or just add the old filters gravel water etc top up with gravel and water and double up on the bio spira to cope with the high ammonia?


----------

