# Newbie Here - Help Plz



## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

Hey,

First of all, great forums you guys have here.

So I decided I would like to purchase a few piranhas because I read about how great of pets they can make.

So I was reading all the info I can find on them before I actually go out and buy them, and I have a few questions I was wondering if someone here can answer.

I'll be purchasing a tank this week, I wanted to get 5 piranhas but the tank size required for them is out of my budget at the moment.

So I Decided to get 3, I'll purchase them after my tank is setup and everything is prefect, that way I don't rush into things.

So I was wondering for 3 1" Piranhas would a 33 gal Tank be sufficient? I will be working a few months down the road and will have $ to purchase a bigger one, but I just wanted to know if this would work out, and they wouldnt be too cramped.

If this is a ok option, even just for a while, how long do you think i'd be able to keep them in there till I'd have to buy a bigger tank?

The 45 gal is $150 and the 33 is $60, and the pump is $100.

Reason I want 3 is because I heard that with 2 they might kill each other off, 1 is no fun and 3 seems like a good starting number.

So if anyone can shed some light on my situation It would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mario


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## shoe997bed263 (Oct 15, 2004)

u should be ok for alittle bit with the 33g with 1'' p's 4-5 months it really depends on how fast they grow though. that is alot of money for a 45g though over here u can get a 55g for 95bucks. now as u say pump what r u talking about air pump water pump what. u need some kind of filter, heater, and i would get a powerhead if i were u i would get a 55 g and you could keep 5 1'' p's in there for a while untill u get the money to get a bigger tank now u r probably looking at something close to a 125 g tank for 5 RBP i would actually get something bigger for 5p's. make sure that u cycle the tank before u put the p's in there this is very important good luck and keep us posted


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## ILLdose13 (Nov 25, 2004)

WELCOME TO P-FURY!


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## CHOMP (Nov 6, 2004)

you could do 3-4 inchlings in there for about 2-3 months.


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

Thanks for the fast reply.

So what I will do is, get a 33 gal and put 3 1"ers in there for 3 months, then i will be able to afford something bigger, and i'll look into the 100-150 gal ones.

Yeah I ment to say filter not pump, the guy ont he phone told me they run about $100. I wont need a pump will I? I read that a filter is good enough for them.

Once they outgrow this tank I can use it to raise live fish for food.

Can someone just verify that 3 1"ers will survive in a 3gal for about 3 months without eating each other over teritory?









Thank You,
Mario


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## killerbee (Aug 18, 2004)

honestly with 1" you never know, they are very canibalistic at that size...even if well fed. i had 5 2" and one killed four and one of them before i even received them at my front doorstep. (read the sig)

If i was u, i would hold off on buing the 33 gallon and instead start buying things you need for the bigger tank you want...if you want 3 get a 75 gallon. if you want 5 get a 100+ gallon....of course bigger is always better for your pets.

buy things like powerhead, heater, filter, substrate (sand or gravel), ect..patience is key, but well worth it in the end.

Most importantly keep researching, u will always learn something here


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## SpAzZy (Mar 30, 2004)

although keeping 3 in a 33g gallon when they are 1" is fine. they grow out really fast. they will reach 3" within two months of owning them.. at 1", they are goin to be around 1 month old. i own a 30g 36x12x16 and i don't see why you couldn't keep juvis in there for a little while. i personally haven't tried rbps in the tank, but i don't see why you couldn't. but if you are buying a new tank to begin with, i'd recommend starting with at least a 55g. at petsmart, they sell them for $100 for the tank, hood and light strips. if this is your first fish tank ever, maintaining a 55g will be much easier than trying to overstock a 30g, on you and your fish.

:welcome: to the fury


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

Thanks to everyone for their informative input. I'm really unsure about my situation.

I really want to get the 33 gal and 3 red bellys, but then people are saying it should be at least 55 gal. I want the best for my fish but I would also like to start as soon as I can.

Buying all the equipment for a 55 gal might take me a few months, and in the end i'll still have to buy a 33 gal for feeder fish.

So if you were in my situation what would you do?

Oh and will it harm the fish in anyway transfering them from a 33 gal to a 100 gal in 4 months when they outgrow it?

Thank you,
Mario


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## killerbee (Aug 18, 2004)

since your anxious to get on your way, i too will suggest to get a 55gallon...they will be fine in there for a while. i have 4 pygos in my 60gallon (same footprint as 55) but i just recently picked up a 113 gallon for them for free....i just need to reseal the sides.

i have not transfered fish from one aquarium to another yet, but i plan to in the following weeks to come. I would think as long as both tanks have similiar water parameters then that will help them with the stress....besides you are giving them more room


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## the grinch (Feb 23, 2004)

My advice to you is to save your money and buy the tank you will have for them for life, than purchase your p's. It is always better to have the proper stuff before purchasing your fish, and make sure tank is fully cycled. Many people get in a hurry and try to rush the cycling process(with chemicals), and buy the p's before they are ready. The p's will be here for sale, check to your right, there is no rush, do it right. As far as raising feeders in a small tank, waste of time, and not best food for them. Plus they will eat more than you can breed. Check feeding and nutrition for best diet options. (It's pinned) This is the only advice that i see reasonable, but you will do what you want anyways.


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

Ok heres what I decided, I will get the 33 gal set eevrything up, double check, give it about a week, then go out and buy 3 1" rb piranhas.

At the end of February I will purchase a 100 gallon tank and use the 33 gal to keep the feeders I buy alive.

Thats what I decided, does anyone think this is a bad idea? or is what im going to do alright?

For now im going to read every piece of info i can find on keeping piranhas as pets to prepare me for whats upcoming.

Thanks guys you've been a real help.
Mario


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## the grinch (Feb 23, 2004)

a week is not enough time for your tank to be properly cycled, avoid chemical starters and do it right. Atleast a month of cyclying.! 
.


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## JAC (Jan 19, 2004)

You're on the right track buddy, as long as you upgrade in a few months of course.

oh, btw:
:welcome:


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## cadeucsb (Nov 4, 2004)

get your self some Bio Spira (call your local fish store)... its expensive, but it instantly cycles ur tank (its basically refridgerated bacteria) and u can add ur fish immediately


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

I will look into that bacteria stuff when I get home, also I wasn't aware you had to wait a month, I havent read about that yet, but i'll read all about it when i get home.

Wow I bet alot of piranha end up dead because people don't read up on this kind of stuff.

Thanks for all your help and support,
Mario


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## killerbee (Aug 18, 2004)

do a search on cycling a tank


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

Hey, Thanks for all the advice.

Heres what I understood. To cycle your water you need to change about 10-15% of the water everyday.

What I was wondering is, do you do this forever, or can you stop at some point?

Also Im really curious if Tap water is safe? is there a special way to prepare it so all the extra stuff they put in it won't affect the fish?

So heres what I plan on buying this week.

- 33 gal Tank
- Filter
- Heater
- Some type of gravel and fake plants
- Thermometer

Is there anything Im missing?

I also read that these fish live in Murky water, and they do not like bright lights, so should I even bother with a light? or is just the room light enough?

Thank you,
Mario


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## killerbee (Aug 18, 2004)

here you go buddy:

http://www.piranha-fury.com/information/de....php?id=cycling

if u have any other ?'s just let us know.

BTW what filter are you planning on purchasing? IMHO u should buy either a AS400 or AC500 that way when u upgrade to your bigger tank u can use those as well. One of those will suffice for your 33gal wonderfully

Here is the cheapest place you will find and they have good service:
http://www.bigalsonline.com/splash.html


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

NO dont change water during cycling! Room light is fine, get a tank light if you want to be fancy. And get an AC500 for the filter. THat way you can just put it on the big tank when you get it/


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

Thanks for your replys guys, I'll get the AC500 if they have it, it'll be worth getting to put in the big tank when I upgrade.

Im still a little confused about the cycling, i was searching the net, and one site told me to change the water, but since were trying to grow bacteria here, that wouldnt help much now would it?

So far you've guys been great at answering all my questions.

Also will the water get enough oxygen from the filter alone? or should I get a pump or a powerhead?

Thank you guys for all the help, if i have anymore questions i'll ask, and im not doing anything to the tank unless im 170% sure on the proper methods, and the fish can wait for as long as it takes to setup the tank properly.

Thank you,
Mario


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

* When I started out with p's I was very excited, like you sound!! I purchased 6 red-bellied piranhas and put them in a 33 gallon tank. To me the tank looked huge. These 1" fish looked fine. I kid you not, within 3 months they had grown 1 to 1.5 inches!! They soon started to fight and over crowding was a problem. Also my water parmeters was not good because of the over crowding. I remember one day checking my water and my ammonia was an 8 .. YES, 8, do not know how they ever lived through my inexperience in raising them!









What I am trying to say is, save up your money... hang out on different piranha discusion boards (I found this one about a month ago and it is by far the best one) and learn... learn about water temps, aquatic plants, what type of heater, filters, power heads etc are better to use.. Buy an aquarium that you can raise these little fellows in for years to come. I have never needed anything bigger than a 125 gallon.. IMO

I am happy to see that you have chosen to get red-bellied p's ... they are very hardy and can really endure a lot.. Good luck on your venture.... and do not rush the cycle!!! This is very important..

*


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

Thank you for your words, really helps knowing im not the only one that ever started from scratch









I have a couple more questions, I really hope im not bothering anyone by asking so much.

Well I was thinking, and how does one go about cleaning a tank full of piranhas? Do you only have to change about 15% of the water every other day once the cycling is done?

Ans does the gravel have to be removed? If so how do you go about that without having your arm bitten?

Also I noticed you mentioned powerheads, are they a good thing to have? or rather manditory?

I'm in no rush here, I don't mind having the tank sit around for a month or 2 while i research.

Thank you guys,
Mario

Edit - Sorry forgot to add, not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but i thought why not throw everything into 1 thread to make it easier.

About feeding, is it possible for the rb piranhas to survive on feeder fish and other non living foods? I don't know if im up for throwing live rats in the tank, just don't have the heart to do it









I'll keep reading, thanks for looking.


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

You dont need live food. Pellets work fine, and krill, and raw shrim, and smelt. DO a search...


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

Read the diet and nutrition forum, i think im all set as far as food goes.

Next question I have is...

Will electronics around the tank cause any harm? I have a computer and wanted to put the tank nearby will this affect the fish in anyway?

I also have a very good soundsystem int he room with a sub, will the sound bother the fish in anyway? Should I need the bass to a minimum, and the sound at low volume?

Last question for now.

Should I buy some kind of water testing kit to make sure the cycling process is going smooth? Do these cost alot? And do i need live fish in the tank to make the cycling process work?

And is tap water fine to cycle? asking cause of the chlorine and stuff they put in it.

Again, sorry about asking so many questions.

Thanks,
Mario


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## killerbee (Aug 18, 2004)

Definately buy yourself a water test kit, otherwise you will not know whats going on with your water parameters.

Let me give u a heads up...when you buy your kit, make sure it has nitrIte, ph, and amonia tests.Most kits have the above + KH and GH. BTW you might have to buy a nitrAte test kit seperately. When i bought my master kit ($20) it had all except the nitrAte test. I bought it seperate for like $7.

As far as electronics go, just be wary of whats going on. Someties fish like to play rough and will create a little splash here and there. So if possible try not to have your computer or any other electronics too close. Better safe than sorry.









When u connect everything to the outlet, foolw the instructions and create a "drip loop"...you will see what i mean when you purchase the equip for your tank.









Oh yeah, and like u i could never put a mice in my tank....definately feed krill, shrimp, pellets (if they eat them), and the occasional feeder.


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

TY TY, im just about to get ready to go buy my fish tank today, although the filter will be bough on tuesday so the cycling will have to wait.

There are a few questions I have about cycling that were missed in a few above posts.

1. Will I need fish in the tank to cycle?

2. Tap water can be used to cycle correct?

3. I take a test of the water right away then one a couple weeks down the road to see how my water is doing?

4. Is there anywhere I can go to determine by the numbers when my water is ready? and if the water is good or bad?

5. You dont change the water when cycling?

6. When the cycling process is done and you change 15% of the water every other day this new water will be good (err how to put it) it will contain the bacteria from the cycling once it's mixed with the other 85% of the water?

Woot after this Im pretty much set for the basic knowledge, and can read up on these things more in depth.

Thank you guys for all the help, glad all my questions were answered, very good bunch of people we have here.

Special thanks to killer bee!


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## killerbee (Aug 18, 2004)

Your welcome, i help when i can....to think 4 months ago i knew nothing. People have helped me along the way so i like to return the favor









1. some people say not to use fish and do it the fishless way...i don't know. i use live gold fish.

2.Tap water is ok to use

3.It is best to test water everday, to get a general idea of what is going on.

4.Parameters are important u want 0 NitrIte, 0 Amonia, ph for piranhas are reccomended between 6.6 - 7.1 .....but a constant ph is what u are looking for (btw this is straight from the info on fish tab in Articles).

Also if it is 8 or greater its probably too high. For example my pygos are as healthy as can be and i have a 7.5 constant ph. Piranhas are hardy fish as long as their is not a major spike. Last but not least, u want the least amount of NitrAte as possible, reality u want 40ppm or <.

5. Don't change water when cycling. Once your parameters are:
0 NitrIte
0 Amonia
good constant ph between 6.6 to 7.5 (my personal)
and u have some NitrAtes, do a 20-25% water change and introduce fish.

6.Once u get your tank cycled and running, (personal b/c of 60 gallon and 4 pygos) do 30% water change every weekend or as needed. Depends if you are anal about having clean tank as me...i have black sand so i like to keep it clean. On your temp 33 gallon probably 20
% should be good (just a guestimate).

Hope that helps ya bro, damn....i better get back to work. i'll check on ya later.
EC

BONUS: (My tank







) {old pic}


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## huntx7 (Nov 13, 2004)

Welcome to the hobby, and good luck!









Don't know if anyone has posted this on here, but you definitely should read up on it: http://www.piranha-fury.com/information/default.php?id=setup


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## 351winsor (Aug 3, 2004)

I bought 5 1" reds about a month and a half ago.Now they are 2.5-3" and are still growing.So I would say you could keep three in there for 3 months about.


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## PYROPYGO1 (Nov 23, 2004)

Ethics said:


> Thank you for your words, really helps knowing im not the only one that ever started from scratch
> 
> 
> 
> ...


when your piranhas get big enough to inflict serious injury to your arm or hand it would be smart to produce a piece of plexi glass with a bunch of holes drilled in it so you can manuver it well through the water to separate the fish from your hand. How often to clean your tank? , it just depends on how dirty it is. I went and purchased a cyphon hose by "python" to perform water changes every weekend. I have a 55 gal. and I only remove 2-3 inches of water from the original level. while doing this, you want to remove waste from the bottom of the tank making sure you don't stab the cyphon into the substrate gravel. This is where your benificial bacteria will breed. Just skim the top of the gravel while doing the water change making sure the fish are well away from your hand.

As for the chlorine in the water, you will need a water conditioner that will remove the chlorine and chloramines from the water. Some people use large water containers that are pretreated with a conditioner and are kept inside their homes to become room temp to be ready for water changes. This is wise to do because the water has to be close as possible to the original temp as the tank. Otherwise the fish will become stressed if you just dump a large amount of cold water in the tank, this will eventually result in some sort of parasite infection due to the stress of the fish such as "ick" or some people call it the "white spot disease".

Power heads are almost necessary in the aspect of keeping not only your tank oxygenated but to circulate the water to evenly heat the aquarium. I have a 55 and I am using a AC802 which pumps out 400 gal/hour. I can also use this same unit to help circulate my 180 gal I am getting soon. Also make sure you get a good heater(high power) if using in a large tank. I have a 200watt submersable for my 55 and it maintains a steady temp. It's recommended to get two heaters just in case the other fails or gets damaged by the fish, which this can happen!

Feeding young piranhas 1''-3'' should be one to two times a day depending on the fish's hunger. But you have to make sure that they consume all of the food for that particular feeding. It is a trial and error situation. Try not to feed to much, if they seem uninterested in the rest of the food that's in the tank, stop feeding. This will just pollute your tank and cause your nitrite levels to skyrocket. Also if you do intend on having a powerhead unit in your tank this could enhance this fish's appetite by boosting its metabolism by constantly being exercised or moving around in the tank. The tank temp. will also affect their appetite aswell. I have noticed if the temp is around 78-81 degrees my fish are very agressive and very hungry. This can very from one species to another. Hope this helps and congrats on becoming a piranha owner


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

Hey, sorry for the long pause.

Thanks for all the great info guys, I finally went to the pet store and bought a tank. It all ended up being alot more then I expected, but I don't mind.

Heres what I purchased today...

54 gal Tank
fluval 204 filter
a canopy with light
a 200 watt heater
some water conditioner, and something to make the cycling process go a bit faster.

Once I find room to put all this in my room I'll take pics for you guys.

Once I left the store I realized I didnt buy a water test kit, or a thermometer :S

I'll be buying stuff to fill the tank liek the gravel and plants in the next few weeks.

A quick question can I start the cycling process without any gravel in the tank? and will it matter if I start adding things to the tank bit by bit?

I paid $420 for everything so far.

If you guys got any tips or suggestions can you plz post them here?

Thanks,
Mario


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## oompalumpa61 (Dec 3, 2004)

well i'm new like you i just buought a

55 gallon tank and stand for 90$ at petland discount

all the supplies fromm big als (ac500, big als 200w heater, mater test kit, thermometer, and some other odds and ends) for 85$ shipped

seems like your local fish store is ripping you off.

put the tank in my room today and made it all level will fill it tomarrow

good luck


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

There it is, what I have so far.

Yeah well that's what I get for shopping at super pets









Now I need to go out and buy a thermometer, water test kit, a stand ( i dont know if i trust those flims metal ones with 200 lbs of water in my room)

And then it's landscaping time, that'll be fun, will probably take a few weeks for me to like everything where it is. No rush for the fish at all, although I would love them in as soon as possible.

I had to rearrange my whole room to fit it in, and got a pretty good spot for it, glad everyhting worked out so far.

Getting started is costing quite a bit of coin though, but i'm willing to save.

Also when I was at the store I saw the weirdest fish today! It was actually playful, it would swim near the glass to you and follow your finger around, it looked as if it was trying to get you attntion so you would play with it. I never seen fish behave that way. So I was liek I need this fish, it's better thne a dog! I looked at the price and it was like $900







eeek.

Ah well the next few weeks should be cool collecting everything to get the tank up and running.

Thanks for everything guys,
Mario


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## killerbee (Aug 18, 2004)

Ethics said:


> A quick question can I start the cycling process without any gravel in the tank? [snapback]817030[/snapback]​


Mario, damn u spent some money....but you'll be happy in the end and thats all that matters. Maybe u can return the stuff and order it on line but its up to u. Anyways, u want to have at least your gravel or sand in the tank while cycling for bacteria to grow upon.

I'm not sure if it will affect the cycling process by adding little by little, either way as long as you don't have fish (except goldfish if going the live method for cycle) u will be ok just keep monitoring. So, definately go out and get your water test kit and btw the thermometers are cheap. good luck.


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## MyNiggLos (Dec 10, 2004)

sure itll be fine im kinda pushin it my self


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

Hey,

Yeah it was quiet a bit it even made me surprised. Well I can always return the filter and the top of the tank which doesent even fit ( horizontally it does but the width of the tank its off about 5", the guy at the store kept going on about how it's prefect, can't believe he jipped me)

So if i can gte a better price on these things i'll be more then happy to return it.

Is there a place online that doesent charge a arm and a leg for shipping to Toronto?

And are the prices for filters under $100 which is what I paid for mine (CND funds btw)

And the hood (plastic with light) was like $120 I believe.

Im going to keep the tank cause it was a strugle and a half to get it here and im sure shipping would be a killer.

I was also wondering, does anyone know of any fish only shops in the Toronto Area? that would be great to check out.

Thanks for all the advice.
Mario










Correction

Tank - $154.99
Canopy - $84.93
200W Heater - $31.99
Filter - $99.99

All before tax, prices are CDN so is there a place online with better prices?

Thanks,
Mario










Edit - Also what kinda of things should I look into purchasing for my weekly water changes? anything in particular?

Edit - the playful fish that I was talking about was a flowerhorn. (i think?)


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2004)

You want some sort of gravel cleaner, basically just a plastic tube. It needs to touch the bottom, I mean be deep enough. It is used when you change your water to suck up all waste food bits and poo from the bottom of your tank, whilst removin water. 
Also you will need some form of water conditioner. This should be used on the water when you first fill your tank and every water change, at the correct dosage. Our water often contains Chlorine, Chloramine and other metals that need to be removed. They can be harmful to fish. All fish shops will sell a little bottle of something to do this job and it is reccomended you use one.

It would be a good idea to get a test kit when you can. It also helps when monitoring if your tank is cycled or not. When your ammonia=0 and Nitrite=0 and Nitrate is greater than 0 you are cycled, good to go!

I don't know about prices over your way i'm afraid, i'm from England. But i'm sure things will be cheaper online. And as you are already discovering fish keeping really does burn a hole in your pocket. I have 5 tanks now and I am always planning the next!!

Keep asking questions its the best way to learn. The more you learn before you get the fish the better. And nobody on here will mind answering. Best of luck


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## illnino (Mar 6, 2004)

damn, you paid a lot, id take the filter back, you can get a fluval 404(much better suited for a 54g tank) at www.bigalsonline.com for under $100


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2004)

The 404 would be much better than a 204, if this can be got for the same price do it!! The more filtration the better for messy fish like P's. I have a Fluval 403 (old!!) and its ok. I will always go Eheim now though!


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

Great suggestions everyone.

I checked big als online and their fluval 204's are $89.99, not really worth all the trouble returning for $10.

My dad is going to take a trip to some fish store downtown today while im at work to hopefully find me some things i need. (the stand being the most important at the time).

If anymore questions pop into my head while i buy the rest of what i need i'll post here. meanwhile if anyone has any suggestions for me i'd love to hear them.

As for cleaning the tank i'll look into purchasing one of these pythons everyone is talking about. (anyone know where to get one in the Toronto area? or someone that will ship here? and are they expensive?)

Thanks,
Mario


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## killerbee (Aug 18, 2004)

i'm not sure how much shipping is in canada but i get some of my stuff through www.bigalsonline.com

definately get a python, u will love that thing.


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## the grinch (Feb 23, 2004)

feeding tips for juv's. Get some cychlid food with the color enhacnement or something similar. This is great for the babies and you can train your p's to eat it. It has great nutrients for them. Feed babies about 3 times a day. Take any uneaten food out within like 5 min or so. Switch up on the food. Give them a varied diet. I like to use pellet food once a day and than go with worms and krill, or shrimp. And occasional beef heart even though it makes your tank dirty fast. It really fills them up and i have had great success doing this. Beef hearts will make them grow fast and it has a lot of protein, it helps me not to loose fish due to canabolism. No fact but it helps me. Stay away from feeders use whole fish fillets.


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

- Tank Stand 
- Water Test Kit 
- Thermometer
- Python
- Gravel

Later

- Decorations
- The Fish + Food

I think i'll be set for a while once I get everything on my list, Thanks for the feeding tips btw, I was about to ask about that, been doing alot fo reading on it.

Buying a brand new tank in one shot is a big investment, kinda sucks seeing you guys having all these god prices down in the States while were getting raped here







but it's all good, as long as the fish are happy I don't care how much $ I spend









Thanks again guys, if theres anything I missed feel free to comment.
Mario


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## illnino (Mar 6, 2004)

Ethics said:


> Great suggestions everyone.
> 
> I checked big als online and their fluval 204's are $89.99, not really worth all the trouble returning for $10
> 
> ...


check again, fluval 404's are $89.99 and 204's are like $60...


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

Is there petsmart in Canada?


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

Fluval 204 $89.99

Fluval 404 $169.99

Yeah we have petsmart all over the place here in Canada.

Mario


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

Ethics said:


> Fluval 204 $89.99
> 
> Fluval 404 $169.99
> 
> ...










petsmart does pricematch. I got an ac500 yesterday for 31$ cus of bigals price!! Just printout the ad from the internet, make sure it has the price and TODAYS date on it <---they are strict about that. Then take it in and they will match the price, no questions asked.


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## Ethics (Dec 16, 2004)

The ac500 is "Sale! Now only: $69.99" this is from the Canadian site, only $30 difference, not worth the drive over to petsmart but thanks for the tip.

Mario


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