# man-made breeds



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

*im curious what you think about man made breeds of animals. specifically in this thread, dogs.

im a dog lover, but when i say dog i refer to a dog that one imagines when one thinks...dog. a moderatly sized animal, proportioned snout and ears, strong muscles, able to protect and/or survive outside.

as long as i could remember ive had dogs in my life. first was a black lab which i adored. then, a huskie which was a wild but loving animal that was more than able to hold its own. down the road still, boxers came into my life and these are the most protective and child friendly dogs. one in particular could accidentally step on a small baby and serious injure it, but no worries, this dog purposly cares and looks out for the kids in its family and when a stranger comes into the room will position itself between the baby and the stranger. absolutely amazing pack behavior.

obviously you can see my prefrence in dog isnt limited to a breed, but rather, a type. now i know all the above mentioned are a ways from the wolf so im not so much here to nay say on how far the dog is from its natural state, but rather...how raped the dog has become with our inbreeding and selective breeding and pure breed types. we have created some of the most unbelievable and totally helpless toy dogs you can imagine. and thus, health and behavior problems have taken the front line with many breeds.*

_to take what was probably the wolf seen here...
_








and in breed, selective breed and simply destroy the genes of this natural predator to create something like...like...well ill use my ex girlfriends dog as an example...









*...its beyond me how we think of this as cute. i even saved all the pictures of little dogs dressed in booties and sweatshirts for you. this dog, if left outside during winter too long will literally freeze to death. its body is frail, its coat is long and thin and sheds. its snout is too short and it constantly has resperation problems and if gets overly exicted can literally go into an asthma attack like phit. its tail as you can see hang very low and is actually usless (cannot be wagged) and the hair catches bowl movments creating a very unsanitary mess. its overall body is extremely weak and there are many websites that advice on this one species that, if dropped by accident, you can literally kill them. almost similar to dropping a baby..

now im not hear to bash this dog. i use it as an example because, frankly, im lost. im lost on why so many of you see a waste of genetic foul ups such as this and think its cute. how you think a dog with a three foot back and four inch legs is adorable and wonder why your spending so much on joint medication. or how a dog with eyes so big and a snout so small has breathing and infection issues. how certain breeds have little immune systems because of so much inbreeding and how others are plain old mentaly unstable. such a far cry from that pack dog.

so how did it come to this and why is it such a love hate thing? you either love the little oversized rats we call purebreeds or hate them. i myself respect natures creations and understand how it works. i understand that we have created such helpless and defensless creature and have literally flooded the world with them so much so that they are being put to sleep daily because of health or over abundance.

perhaps the wolf itself was innevatibly going to vanish once it started to have a few members domesticated. perhaps theres no real need to keep those predatorial like features. but what i definately know, is no animal, cat or dog, should ever...EVER...look like this
*









_*well that picture really makes my point for me. its almost as if that dogs saying "it hurts to live"

*_*but what the hell, theyre cute right? uff
well let me know what you think about this. im curious to know who thinks all these toy breed are out of control and we have no real business dabbing in it further.

it IS funny to see how defensive some of you are about dyed fish and genetically crossed or artificial species in the aquarium world, but when it comes to your toy breed shes the BEST dog in the world! 
guess your the judge, but i can certainly see the difference between dog and toy...

*


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## MiGsTeR (Jan 19, 2008)

I didn't read anything cuz of nba but ther adorable.


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

please read my post if your going to respond to it guys. its the least you can do....ok?


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

hey man im with you there i use to breed american bulldogs they are my no meens helpless and can crush just about any thing with there jaws i had one female named hemi she could bite throw a tire like puntures they have a wrinkeled face so blood from a bull doesnt get in their nose wen they are locked on to its face and i use the term locked but thats not really what happens they sort of have a vise grip type jaw wen pressure is added in a pulling sort the jaw acutlly tightins with out any more pressure being applyed byt he dog it doesnt actully lock neather does a pitbulls as i bred them before i bred bulldogs

the reason i swiched breeds is a pit to me is completly worth less they were bred not to be protective for there owners they were bred only in a dog fighting baiting compacity beleive it or not hey used to get killed for biting someone because the people who used these dogs for fighting didnt want the dogs jumping the bales to bite some one they preety much took all drive for people out of pits by selective breeding

a builldog on the other hand is the totall dog they are fast protective can deal with a pitbull no problem especally a painter blood line as they were bred more for agility and speed to use in rings against dogs as well my totall dog is a johnson bulldog so deisel like a fat kid cant run far but if he gets ahold of you thats it and there drive is unbleviable they will litlerly kill them selves try to get what they want 
i had one go after a stick in the creek bite down on it and sink because he wouldnt let go of the stick needless to say we found him on the top of a waterfall about 500 yrds down dead still with the stick 
sad day that was

yeah anywey most dogs are completly worthless imo if they cant perform a function they are worthless cute doesnt cut it with me i will and never had owned one of those cute dogs 
jmt


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

i think it's just a question of personal preference really. i try not to bash on other people's choices in dogs because i get hated on all the time because my breed of choice happens to be pit bulls. now mind you, i'm not one of those people that likes them because they're badass, or mean, or because i think they make me look tough, i think they're beautiful dogs and they make great companions for the right type of person. i just picked up a new puppy a couple days ago (i have pics posted here in the lounge) and when i've taken him up to petsmart to buy toys and bones to spoil the sh*t outta him, people come running up from all over talking about how cute he is and this and that, but the moment that i tell him that he's a pit bull, the expression on their face changes and they look at me like i'm crazy.

i personally prefer bigger dogs, they fit my lifestyle better and the companionship offered by a bigger dog is totally different than the feeling of complete dependence upon their owners offered by purse dogs. but i'm not here to hate, different dogs suit different types of people in different types of living situations and lifestyles, so as long as someone is a dog lover, no matter what type of dog it is that they love, they're alright in my book. P.S. -- Oppose Breed Specific Legislation


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

joedizzlempls said:


> i think it's just a question of personal preference really. i try not to bash on other people's choices in dogs because i get hated on all the time because my breed of choice happens to be pit bulls. now mind you, i'm not one of those people that likes them because they're badass, or mean, or because i think they make me look tough, i think they're beautiful dogs and they make great companions for the right type of person. i just picked up a new puppy a couple days ago (i have pics posted here in the lounge) and when i've taken him up to petsmart to buy toys and bones to spoil the sh*t outta him, people come running up from all over talking about how cute he is and this and that, but the moment that i tell him that he's a pit bull, the expression on their face changes and they look at me like i'm crazy.
> 
> i personally prefer bigger dogs, they fit my lifestyle better and the companionship offered by a bigger dog is totally different than the feeling of complete dependence upon their owners offered by purse dogs. but i'm not here to hate, different dogs suit different types of people in different types of living situations and lifestyles, so as long as someone is a dog lover, no matter what type of dog it is that they love, they're alright in my book. P.S. -- Oppose Breed Specific Legislation


i agree totally with that pitbulls make great companion dogs ive had some get actully anxiety wen i left for work so weird the vet tryed to give my dog a type of like a doggy valuim ahahahhahaa for some reason though they were never protective at all well ok idid have 1 pit named jeep he was a rednose i bought him from a pit fighter breeder out of philly the dog turned out completly not dog aggressive and very people protective at 4 months i took him down the river to go fishing he fell asleep in the sun on a big boulder some people walked up and he awoke and went nuts growling and lunged to the people ( a guy and his son ) thank good i had him on a long leash that was wedged in a rock wow it would have bin ugley most likly the guy would have hurt him and his protective nature would have vanish for ever him being so young and all deff would have hurt his spirt great dog though


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

yeah, people underestimate the protective qualities of pit bulls all the time because they never really see them in action. pit bulls are known for having extremely good judgement and have an almost sixth sense of distinguishing between threatening and non-threatening situations. pit bulls aren't the best guards of property because most are very people-friendly, but if a situation arises where they can sense that their owner is in trouble, they will stop at nothing to protect them. one of my good friend's pits was shot three times at close range by a 9mm and he kept going strong and acted like nothing had happened once the situation was over, but he had to be put down later that night as the internal bleeding was out of control.


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## 8o8P (Jan 13, 2007)

I agree that mother nature produces the best breeds, man made is garbage IMO. All those poor tea cup dogs that die due to genetic mutations and chihuahuas that go through seizures as they age, its pretty sad. I prefer Pittbulls as well and they need to be the real deal APBT, not the Bully breed that was created by cross genetics. The pure breed Pittbull was and is a great dog, light, agile and at the same time fierce. I will admit that the Bully style of Pitt looks more aggressive with their shorter stockier build, but usually a true APBT will physically outperform a Bully any day of the week.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

M0RpH said:


> now im not hear to bash this dog. i use it as an example because, frankly, im lost. im lost on why so many of you see a waste of genetic foul ups such as this and think its cute. how you think a dog with a three foot back and four inch legs is adorable and wonder why your spending so much on joint medication. or how a dog with eyes so big and a snout so small has breathing and infection issues. how certain breeds have little immune systems because of so much inbreeding and how others are plain old mentaly unstable. such a far cry from that pack dog.


Every major breed of dog is inbred to an extent and just about all forms of domestic dogs have medical issues. your boxer is a product of inbreeding. i'm not sure what it is exactly that you're getting at. are you not a fan of designer dogs or just dogs that aren't protective and weigh over 40lbs?

just about every dog was bred and inbred for a reason. since you made reference to the dachshund, let me fill you in on your ignorant comment. dachshunds were bred as hunting dogs (much like my own rat terrier) and every aspect of their body was designed with hunting in mind. low profile for baying and working underground, big paws for digging, long snouts to protect their eyes when fending off badgers and for better smelling and such. as was my terrier, bred to work rodents and vermin both above and below ground.

this is a dachshund in a 9"x9" tunnel, good luck getting a boxer or a german shepard in there to dart foxes










these guys are totally sissies that only have those dogs because they think its cute!










some dogs were bred on what the people thought was good looking at the time. the current "pit bulls" are not even pit bulls, they're muts of true pitbull terriers and bulldogs. i think they're f*cking hideous but people seem to think otherwise. what's your point?

while i agree that certain toy breeds serve no purpose and have useless features, you cannot make an assumption on a dog based on its appearance alone without knowing its history. i take personal offense to your comment because i have a dachshund but unlike you, know their history and most definitely know that they are not "toy" dogs. you probably also think that this dog...










... is a fluffy little toy that people tote around in bags. nay, it's a cairn terrier and they are also hunting dogs, used to hunt fox. so then, where do you draw the line? if humans wanted wolf-like features then we would have kept wolves. but we don't, we want dogs that serve our purpose. for that we "engineered" dogs to better suit our needs. some hunt, some fight, some retrieve, some are just cosmetic.

i don't care much for breed specifics or having a purebred dog with papers or anything of that nature. in fact the whole show dog circuit is probably ruining much of the dogs health because of inbreeding. but i do not have a problem with a dog not having behavior like that of a wolf. and trust me, you do NOT want a dog with wolf-like behavior. being protective or guarding is not a feature exclusive to wolves, it's a canine feature, and not all dogs are descended from wolves. so to say that it's the product of the wolf is also ignorant. additionally, if i so wanted to, i could take a 10lb dog, engineer it to be protective, give it a strong winter coat and a higher prey drive. would you like it then? oh wait, they already did, the scottish terrier!










now, do you not like it because it's small? it has all the features of your boxer.


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

Don't forget that the Cairn was also bred to take down otters. Now that's f*cking cool.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

ChilDawg said:


> Don't forget that the Cairn was also bred to take down otters. Now that's f*cking cool.


exactly. many many small dogs are used extremely ruggedly to this day. i hate the mentality that people have these days. "oh blah, if it isn't as big as my pitbull then it's a pansy dog!" throw your doberman pinscher into a forest during winter in maine and see how long he lasts.


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## 8o8P (Jan 13, 2007)

^ Great post Hyphen, you really know your dogs. As for your APBT comment, Thumbs up to you for saying the Bully type Pitts are crap as I feel the same way, genetic garbage.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

well thanks for slamming the sh*t out of my dog after i stood up for small dogs... haha


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

joedizzlempls said:


> well thanks for slamming the sh*t out of my dog after i stood up for small dogs... haha










i wasn't slamming your dog. i love pitbulls (i owned two red nose pits many years ago) i just hate the "bullies" and the mentality of the owner that generally comes with the bully.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

ha, i was just messin with ya... i own pit bulls for the one and only right reason: i one day would like to become a famous rapper and i think it will give me tons of street cred. but seriously folks... everyone loves their dogs regardless of what kind it is and nobody should hate on anyone who provides a nice loving home for any type of canine.


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## Enriqo_Suavez (Mar 31, 2004)

Seriously? Of all the things that you could have 'legitimately' bitched about, you choose people's choice in dog breed? Who cares, if other people enjoy having dogs bred for protection, hunting, looks, etc. why do you think your feelings supercede their rationale? Does their choice affect you?


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## 8o8P (Jan 13, 2007)

To me, my main concern is the health problems that occur through cross/in breeding. Some of those "toy" breeds like poodles, teacups, etc. have very bad genetic mutations that leads to a early death. I forget what the condition is, but I know there is a bad defect with one of heir organs and it is most commonly associated with puppy farms due to their breeding practices. Also, in the case of the Bully Pitts, the access weight leads to stress on their lungs which gives them breathing problems and stress on their joints in their legs.


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

hyphen said:


> Seriously? Of all the things that you could have 'legitimately' bitched about, you choose people's choice in dog breed? Who cares, if other people enjoy having dogs bred for protection, hunting, looks, etc. why do you think your feelings supercede their rationale? Does their choice affect you?


again, why do i have to recap every thing i write. yes enriqo, thats my bitch post of the day. sorry the subject matter wasnt up to par. 
ITS A THREAD!!! A TALKING POINT! comparing the wolf to the modern day dog. jesus christ i thought it was an interesting post. you people are too damn defensive cause your obviously thinking i have some undying hate for an animal. i couldnt be more of a dog person if i tried. 
GOD DAMNIT!!!! its like trying to express physics to a spider monkey


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

Modern dogs are generally thought to be descendants of the grey wolf, a proud and dignified animal that for millennia has earned man's reverence and respect. Nobody is certain whether man approached the wolf first or vice versa, but it is clear that a mutually beneficial relationship emerged from the encounter: Man earned a loyal companion to help him hunt and manage his flocks, and the wolf was guaranteed food and security. At least that's how things started out. Considering the current state of the species, I'd say the wolf got seriously shortchanged.

Next time you see someone walking a Pekinese, Dachshund or a Chihuahua-as is so common around campus when the weather warms up-think to yourself, "This is what we did to the wolf. Thousands of years of controlled inbreeding have finally culminated in our greatest achievement: A rat-sized, slobber-drenched, sweater-toting runt that can't even control its own bladder-a veritable canine Übermensch." At least rats have some dignity.

I know a lot of small dog owners are now preparing to throw out the paper and write (another) nasty letter to the Tribune. Well, first of all, that's too bad, because we're not publishing any more issues. Second, at least hear me out before you do. Your dog is not cute. It's not even a dog; it's a sandwich. It's a disgusting abomination better suited to a George A. Romero film than your purse. There are at least two reasons why.

The consequences of inbreeding in dogs are devastating to their species. Chihuahua puppies have to be delivered through a cesarean section because their heads are too big to come out naturally. Dachshunds often develop ruptured spinal discs because of their long backs, which can lead to paralysis. Pekinese-perhaps the most abominable of all small dogs-are known to lose their eyeballs because they don't have sockets big enough to contain them. That mutually beneficial relationship is starting to look a lot more one-sided; these degenerate descendants of the wolf couldn't fend for themselves if they had to. But then again, what do we get out of exploiting a once noble and useful creature this way?

The social ramifications of breeding small dogs are just as horrific as the physical ones. There's a good Cultural Studies honours thesis to be written about the breeding of small dogs as a pathetic parody of Genesis 1:27: "So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them." Think about it. How do people react to small dogs? The same way they react to babies: They kiss and cuddle them and dress them up in absurd sweaters. Does anyone else think there's something more than coincidental and at least slightly creepy about the fact that Hollywood's small dog fad seems to be paralleled by an apparently rampant spread of pregnancy amongst female celebrities?

So if we breed small dogs in our own image, what are we saying about ourselves? Small dogs are helpless, dependent, annoying, pathetic and lack any self-respect whatsoever-they are useless and excessive accessories that, like all such things, seem to have become status symbols for the sickly opulent. That isn't a particularly positive self-portrait. Adam and Eve may not have been perfect, but at least God tried to make Himself seem half respectable when He created them.

Marco Avolio, The McGill Tribune


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

well the dogs that are breed without an intent so hunt or serve some purpose can be viewed as fashion. and alot of people have crappy taste in fashion.


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

well u made a point corey. most toy dog breeds are bred for owner appeal and no real practical reasons. this is where we strayed away from what made a dog a dog all these generations and fell into a sweatshirt wearing barely stand on its own 4 legs victim or genetic mutation. 
if theres a market, there will be a product. unfortunately there is a market for dogs that have no relevance what so ever and because of such we have health problems and behavior problems bacause of it. AND an extraordinary amount of dogs without homes.

and again let me recap for small dog owners...im not nay-saying any breed or owner for having said breed. im simply making an open opinion to discuss what you think of the subject. from wolf to japanese chin, etc. is it better to have all these breeds or have we gone crazy with customer demand and lost focus of health and the word dog?


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

this is the difference between toy dogs and big dogs. ive never experienced simple play like this with a tiny dog. its always feed me, bark at me, beg or potty. 
check out this wild wolf in this video though. kinda makes me happy we did away with the simple dog.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

that wolf is gorgeous!


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

i know it, wolves in my opinion, even if i did love dogs would be one of the most gogeous animals period. its just uncanny that men have had this bond with a completely different species since history was recorded. 
i understand that wolves/dogs would definately benefit from humans hunting and being sheltered. domestication in other words works both ways. we get a hunting partner and protector and they get shelter and food.

but isnt it so strange how dogs and people share a nothing short of brotherly bond?


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

well i guess if you go way back, when man first domesticated the wolf, they were partners in crime and i thing that forged a great bond between two pretty copmpatible species of carnivors/pack animals.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

theree are a couple of dogs that have min masively inbred inbreeding is a brother sister morthe son father daughter thing

dogs that ihave heard of severe inbred

doberemans 
dalmations 
golden retrevers
shepards 
boxers

there are also does that have bin line breed and this is mostly 2 dogs that had the same father but a different mother and should be a little more down the line 3rd gereation and not to be done that frequently this is done to get the genes tighter in a specific breed of dog or for the drive of the dogs being produced dogs are all bloodlines

all breeds of dog are man made like a pitbull is a cross from a old day bulldog and a terrier

boxers are part bulldog cane corso are part buldog


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

i do have to say that alot of the problems with those little toy dogs and the the negative feelings that i have for some of them stems from the owners. one of my neighbors has a little toy yorkie and two toy chihuahuas and she pushes them around in a bright pink stroller that is specially made for dogs... it looks ridiculous and expensive. they are also always wearing bright pink outfits complete with collars, sweaters or shirts, shoes, and sometimes hats, she even paints their nails pink... you get the point. she spoils them so much that they are absolutely terrified of everything, they are so used to being carried around in strollers and purses that when they are put on the ground, they cower in fear between the owner's legs and shake like they've been out in the cold for hours. i tried to be nice one day and stopped and looked down into the stroller and said "wow, look at those", and the two bug-eyed chihuahuas pissed all over themselves in fear. i just think that some of these owners have the mentality that these dogs are like living barbies or something that they're supposed to play dress up with and baby the hell out of.


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

joedizzlempls said:


> i do have to say that alot of the problems with those little toy dogs and the the negative feelings that i have for some of them stems from the owners. one of my neighbors has a little toy yorkie and two toy chihuahuas and she pushes them around in a bright pink stroller that is specially made for dogs... it looks ridiculous and expensive. they are also always wearing bright pink outfits complete with collars, sweaters or shirts, shoes, and sometimes hats, she even paints their nails pink... you get the point. she spoils them so much that they are absolutely terrified of everything, they are so used to being carried around in strollers and purses that when they are put on the ground, they cower in fear between the owner's legs and shake like they've been out in the cold for hours. i tried to be nice one day and stopped and looked down into the stroller and said "wow, look at those", and the two bug-eyed chihuahuas pissed all over themselves in fear. i just think that some of these owners have the mentality that these dogs are like living barbies or something that they're supposed to play dress up with and baby the hell out of.


...wow lol
well that about sums up how i feel as well. and its not a barby thing, its a surrogate baby thing. most "people" with small dogs like that are single women (no offense anyone but its true). even my ex flat out told me her jap chin was her daughter. she would die for her dog. and thats quite alright. im not even judging, but just so you wonder, who are these people? i know first hand who they are, and their dog is always filling a void in their life. if you wanted a companion you would get a companion, not a ...well, what joe wrote above. thats no companion, thats your fake baby


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

pirayaman said:


> hey man im with you there i use to breed american bulldogs they are my no meens helpless and can crush just about any thing with there jaws i had one female named hemi she could bite throw a tire like puntures they have a wrinkeled face so blood from a bull doesnt get in their nose wen they are locked on to its face and i use the term locked but thats not really what happens they sort of have a vise grip type jaw wen pressure is added in a pulling sort the jaw acutlly tightins with out any more pressure being applyed byt he dog it doesnt actully lock neather does a pitbulls as i bred them before i bred bulldogs
> 
> the reason i swiched breeds is a pit to me is completly worth less they were bred not to be protective for there owners they were bred only in a dog fighting baiting compacity beleive it or not hey used to get killed for biting someone because the people who used these dogs for fighting didnt want the dogs jumping the bales to bite some one they preety much took all drive for people out of pits by selective breeding
> 
> ...


Get out! AB's....Do you still have any? I adopted one with my wife about 3 years ago. He is GREAT!!!! The breed is getting much more popular...we have noticed there are now about 4-6 in the general area.

Anyway...i agree I really dont like tea-cup and toy breeds.
to each their own.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

pirayaman said:


> now im not hear to bash this dog. i use it as an example because, frankly, im lost. im lost on why so many of you see a waste of genetic foul ups such as this and think its cute. how you think a dog with a three foot back and four inch legs is adorable and wonder why your spending so much on joint medication. or how a dog with eyes so big and a snout so small has breathing and infection issues. how certain breeds have little immune systems because of so much inbreeding and how others are plain old mentaly unstable. such a far cry from that pack dog.


Every major breed of dog is inbred to an extent and just about all forms of domestic dogs have medical issues. your boxer is a product of inbreeding. i'm not sure what it is exactly that you're getting at. are you not a fan of designer dogs or just dogs that aren't protective and weigh over 40lbs?

just about every dog was bred and inbred for a reason. since you made reference to the dachshund, let me fill you in on your ignorant comment. dachshunds were bred as hunting dogs (much like my own rat terrier) and every aspect of their body was designed with hunting in mind. low profile for baying and working underground, big paws for digging, long snouts to protect their eyes when fending off badgers and for better smelling and such. as was my terrier, bred to work rodents and vermin both above and below ground.

this is a dachshund in a 9"x9" tunnel, good luck getting a boxer or a german shepard in there to dart foxes










these guys are totally sissies that only have those dogs because they think its cute!










some dogs were bred on what the people thought was good looking at the time. the current "pit bulls" are not even pit bulls, they're muts of true pitbull terriers and bulldogs. i think they're f*cking hideous but people seem to think otherwise. what's your point?

while i agree that certain toy breeds serve no purpose and have useless features, you cannot make an assumption on a dog based on its appearance alone without knowing its history. i take personal offense to your comment because i have a dachshund but unlike you, know their history and most definitely know that they are not "toy" dogs. you probably also think that this dog...










... is a fluffy little toy that people tote around in bags. nay, it's a cairn terrier and they are also hunting dogs, used to hunt fox. so then, where do you draw the line? if humans wanted wolf-like features then we would have kept wolves. but we don't, we want dogs that serve our purpose. for that we "engineered" dogs to better suit our needs. some hunt, some fight, some retrieve, some are just cosmetic.

i don't care much for breed specifics or having a purebred dog with papers or anything of that nature. in fact the whole show dog circuit is probably ruining much of the dogs health because of inbreeding. but i do not have a problem with a dog not having behavior like that of a wolf. and trust me, you do NOT want a dog with wolf-like behavior. being protective or guarding is not a feature exclusive to wolves, it's a canine feature, and not all dogs are descended from wolves. so to say that it's the product of the wolf is also ignorant. additionally, if i so wanted to, i could take a 10lb dog, engineer it to be protective, give it a strong winter coat and a higher prey drive. would you like it then? oh wait, they already did, the scottish terrier!










now, do you not like it because it's small? it has all the features of your boxer.
[/quote]

abosultely agree. But i think he means the cutsey toy breed that have NO use except for women dressing them up and treating them like children. I have respect for all breeds in general but not the useless ones.


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

^^^ exactly


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

Who gets to define a breed as "useless"?


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

ChilDawg said:


> Who gets to define a breed as "useless"?


anyone that formulates that opinion. one mans trash is another mans tressure, one mans usless breed is another womans fake baby to play dress up with. believe me, im not trying to lay some law down, just my opinion.


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

8o8P said:


> are all small dogs usless? of course not...and id like you to quote where i said that. you can stop trying to throw me under the bus by ripping into my post like im an ignorant hick who thinks, "if it cant kill its own meals its usless!!!"
> well...actually i do think that now that i just said it lol. basically, as stated already, but as i must do often, restate for the sake of slower learners, toy dogs are absolutely helpless without nurse-like care. small dogs are not...TOY dogs are.
> take what you want from my posts, but the point of the origonal one was to visually compare and write about how dramatic the differences have become from the wild dogs/wolfs that all dogs stemed from. even if your small dog is very rough and tumble and exists for very very real reasons...you have to admit, its an amazingly dramatic change from its distant cousin.


Agreed, it is a DRAMATIC change in both size and type, but admittedly, my Chis have gone and killed their own meals... much to my disgust. They are AMAZING ratters/vole killers, although I haven't let them eat (much) of what they've killed, but I do raw feed and they CAN tear apart a carcas just as well as dogs 2-10x their size. The build of their jaw is quite amazing- although reduced in size, it maintains strength strong enough to crush small bones, and rip and tear an amazing amount of damage into flesh.

Their temperament is to be described as "Terrier Like" and unlike all of the other toy breeds, it is actually permissable to spar them, like terriers, in the ring (basically face them off and see which one backs down first).

Most of the toy breeds weren't invented by women for the point of dressing them up... lets be honest, the world until 200 years ago was a male dominated sphere and MEN made these breeds. They were companion animals to be brought into the house, since most of the working breeds throughout the years weren't considered acceptable house-pets.

I've yet to baby any of my Chihuahuas, they're treated as dogs- I will NOT carry them in my arms if there is an option for them to walk on the ground. 9 times out of 10 the reason people have issues with toy breeds is because a lot of them have poor temperaments.... this is usually caused by people not treating them like the DOGS they are!

BTW cuz it was mentioned somewhere: there is NO SUCH THING AS A TEACUP BREED.... Toy breeds are that, toy breeds, period. There is not one breed that includes the word 'teacup' in its breed standard, or has a 'teacup' size. Sorry! Pet peeve there!


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## pcrose (Mar 9, 2003)

agrees with everything tink said.








I agree about what chili said as well as who has the right to determine what breed is useless. If it makes the person happy to dress them up so be it. I personally don't and will never dress my dogs I may take a goofy pic of them in a shirt from time to time. If the dog doesn't like to wear it then he shouldn't have to. They are still god's creatures and yes they are because we are god's creation with freewill so we can; not saying it is right to breed different breeds or hybrids. If it happens naturally two pups getting it on in a backyard at a soiree or whatever there ya go.

I know what I mean regardless if I make sense


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

i dont mind like morphs with different colours and that or really human greated species but i dont think humans should be messign around creating thing when we dont really even under stand dna since alot of human created dogs have certain parts of them that are weak/get diseased easily.


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## JAC (Jan 19, 2004)

Not that I like it when people dress toy breeds and make them look ridiculous or look after them as if they were babies, but who gets to decide which breed is "useless" and which one isn't? all those "useless" breeds you have mentioned do serve a purpose believe it or not: they are companion dogs, how is that wrong or stupid or useless?

And many of the diseases common in some dog breeds are more of a result of poor breeding practices than the actual breed itself.


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

i give the breed BOXER at 10 out of 10,, not only because i own one but because you never here a bad story about them...heres my bouy......hes getting old now almost 8 years old


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

i think im fishing for what you guys think to enlighten myself too. because i know deep down that all dogs are something somebody special to all of us. the tiniest most defensless dog can give someone a love that you cant put a price on. and the biggest wolf like dog can do the same as well. someone said to each his/her own. i agree.

i think im just comparing and contrasting because i grew up with and lived around big dogs all my life, and only recently have i been in close quarters with the small breeds. in specific, a japanese chin (yucK!) a sheltie mix (which is a very loving dog) beagles and bishons. all of the mentioned really lack that sidekick packbuddy mentality i experienced with all my past dogs. the small breeds i have experienced, ALL OF THEM, have been spoiled rotten, dont have loyalty, wont protect children (but might snip at them) and generally click clack around all day and have awful habits.

where a big dog might be disciplined for begging, small dogs seem to be able to call the family couch their own, eat off plates when loading them into a dish washer and bark to their hearts desire (because thats "what they do")

...perhaps the owners are where my experience has gone sour? are small dogs just like big dogs for all you small dog owners? am i just cursed with knowing smaller breeds that have poor owners? i wonder..


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

come to think of it i dont think i have ever seen a well mannered little dog,,


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

cueball said:


> come to think of it i dont think i have ever seen a well mannered little dog,,


uh oh...i thought it was just me. i was hoping someone would tell me its the owners not the dogs...

btw cue, i LOVE boxers. i mentioned them in my first post. absolutely awesome companions.


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

M0RpH said:


> ...perhaps the owners are where my experience has gone sour? are small dogs just like big dogs for all you small dog owners? am i just cursed with knowing smaller breeds that have poor owners? i wonder..


You hit the nail on the head. Most small dog owners, and I mean a LARGE majority seem to have issues reprimanding a small breed, and also treat them vastly different from a large breed. If you treat a small breed just like a large breed, voila- you have a dog that thinks & acts like a typical 'dog'.

Pack mentality is commanded by an alpha, i.e. usually the humans in the house. Unfortunately with a lot of toy breeds the people allow the dog to take an alpha position, and therefore the behaviors you're describing (nipping, yapping, etc.) begin to evolve because this is their way of gaining and maintaining dominance.


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## pcrose (Mar 9, 2003)

tink you are very intelligent


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

pcrose said:


> tink you are very intelligent


When it comes to dogs, its a HELL of a lot of hands-on experiance. I just started off in large breeds and wound up with toys and non-sporting breeds.... Most of the toy breeders I see at the shows make me absolutely sick- and at the same time they're impressed with my Dusty (Chihuahua stud) because he free-stacks (4 legs square) himself on the ground on command which is almost unheard of in the Chihuahua ring. Well DUH. I trained him just like we used to train our Labs!!!!

My training/behavioral knowledge is based primarily in Service Dogs (Labradors, Golden Retrievers), and Schutzhund/Obediance trained dogs (Dobermans, Boxers, German Shepherds, etc.)... Later Bostons and Chihuahuas


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## pcrose (Mar 9, 2003)

That is fricken cool. How many do you have?

Ever had a blue healer?


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## waldron (Jan 15, 2007)

have the man made tattoed love you guppys come to a lfs near you yet.. it's rediculous


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## pcrose (Mar 9, 2003)

not that I know of never heard of them.


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## JAC (Jan 19, 2004)

I believe it's the same case with Pit Bulls, lousy owners who don't take proper care of their dogs and do not train them well (if at all) end up raising a dangerous dog and give the breed as a whole a bad rep; the thing is that a spoiled shih-tzu or chihuahua nipping at you is not really that dangerous(unless we're talking about a small child or baby of course), so people don't take misbehaved toy sized dogs seriously and just live with it, but I think it's exaactly the same thing.

For example, we're taking care of my sister's miniature schnauzer, she was *extremely *spoiled by my sister who raised her alone and allowed her to do pretty much as she pleased, she is very dominant, she won't let herself be handled by strangers and she's very jumpy, even with me and I've known her since she was a puppy, she will nip at you if you try to grab her or even pet her when she's not feeling like it and she's the same with other dogs, she barks at anything and everything and she wont obey most commands, she even tries to hump my bulldog (Manolito) and constantly barks and nips at him (she has bitten him quite a few times, mostly when he was a pup), but now that he is almost 1 year old and weighs over 23kilos, he knows how to take care of himself and when he has had enough he will respond(but he's VERY tolerant of her, after all, he's a bulldog), I'm actually affraid that one day he will harm her (in self defense of course) because he's much much larger than she is.

Anyway, I'm doing my best to correct her behavior but it's very hard (she's almost 6 years old), specially because it's almost impossible to put her on her back to show her who's boss because she's extremely quick and agile and because she bites without hesitating, any advice would be extremely appreciated.


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## pcrose (Mar 9, 2003)

she has to trust you and try using treats. Also don't have the other dog around why you are training her so she doesn't get distracted.


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

'JAC said:


> That is fricken cool. How many do you have?
> 
> Ever had a blue healer?


I currently just have 4 Bostons and 2 Chihuahuas that live with me, but I co-own several dogs that live with their co-owners.

Within the next year I am getting a Boxer and a Frenchbulldog (both free, ohhhh yeah!)

I have worked with blue heelers in the show ring, and i'm not totally impressed with them. They are VERY smart dogs, not for the average pet owner. They have incredibly strong herding instinct with everything from ducks to kids, and can be rough. They also tend to be nippy which is incredibly difficult to break them of because in conjunction with the herding, it is totally hardwired.


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## waldron (Jan 15, 2007)

pcrose said:


> not that I know of never heard of them.


there little guppys that some sicko has tattoed little hearts on ..


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

waldron said:


> not that I know of never heard of them.


there little guppys that some sicko has tattoed little hearts on ..
[/quote]

those aren't a man-made breed... those are cosmetically modified.


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## waldron (Jan 15, 2007)

Tinkerbelle said:


> not that I know of never heard of them.


there little guppys that some sicko has tattoed little hearts on ..
[/quote]

those aren't a man-made breed... those are cosmetically modified.
[/quote]

Oh sorry my bad guys..


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## JAC (Jan 19, 2004)

Tinkerbelle said:


> she has to trust you and try using treats. Also don't have the other dog around why you are training her so she doesn't get distracted.


Treats are a good idea, considering that some of her behavior may be fear based- she's been coddled so much, she is now out of her comfort zone, and it is making her VERY uncomfortable.

The humping is a dominant behavior- showing she is from an unstable pack structure.... Also she is a female, so most likely your boy will never turn on her because she is a female, and in domestic dog pack structures, spayed females tend to be dominant.

Another thing to keep in mind: She's a schnauzer. They were originally ratters, and bred down from the Giant & Standard Schnauzers- working and protection breeds. Its a lot of purpose to pack into a little dog, and they are very sharp in temperament as a breed trait.

[/quote]

Well, she was the same way when she lived with my sister and she also has lived at our house along with my sister for almost a year until she went to Spain to get an MBA last December.

I know she's trying to show her dominance with the humping, she did the same thing to Billy who died about a year ago, he was also a miniature schnauzer so I'm familiar with their strong temperament, however he had much better manners although he was not perfect due to some mistakes we made when we raised him, I think I'm doing a much better job with my new dog Manolito







.

How can I correct her properly if she is barking uncontrollably for example? and also, with the nipping, it's driving me nuts.

Thanks for the replies guys, I really appreciate the help


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

JAC said:


> Well, she was the same way when she lived with my sister and she also has lived at our house along with my sister for almost a year until she went to Spain to get an MBA last December.
> 
> I know she's trying to show her dominance with the humping, she did the same thing to Billy who died about a year ago, he was also a miniature schnauzer so I'm familiar with their strong temperament, however he had much better manners although he was not perfect due to some mistakes we made when we raised him, I think I'm doing a much better job with my new dog Manolito
> 
> ...


The barking you could try a squirt bottle to deter her, its the mildest method. PM me if that doesn't work.

The nipping might be a bit harder. Its hard wether to say this is fear or aggression without seeing the behavior in motion. I would suggest consulting a behaviorist or trainer in your area and having them evaluate the situation one on one.


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## JAC (Jan 19, 2004)

Tinkerbelle said:


> The barking you could try a squirt bottle to deter her, its the mildest method. PM me if that doesn't work.
> 
> The nipping might be a bit harder. Its hard wether to say this is fear or aggression without seeing the behavior in motion. I would suggest consulting a behaviorist or trainer in your area and having them evaluate the situation one on one.


 Cool, thanks, I'm actually looking for a trainer who can help me with her issues, I just want to make sure I find a good one and not some nut that will make things worse.


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## pcrose (Mar 9, 2003)

My aunt has a blue healer and he actually doesn't nip or herd. His cousin"my dog" kobe is a red healer or a aussie cattle dog and he has a tendency to do the herding thing and nip but not hard. We are taking my staffy terrier to class soon because he likes to jump on people and not listen he listens to my bf more than me. So lucky I would like a bulldog of any breed but they can take some maintence as you know because they get sick easily.


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

bulldogs get sick eazy....? never herd of that one and ive owned bulldogs


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## JAC (Jan 19, 2004)

pcrose said:


> My aunt has a blue healer and he actually doesn't nip or herd. His cousin"my dog" kobe is a red healer or a aussie cattle dog and he has a tendency to do the herding thing and nip but not hard. We are taking my staffy terrier to class soon because he likes to jump on people and not listen he listens to my bf more than me. So lucky I would like a bulldog of any breed but they can take some maintence as you know because they get sick easily.


 If you get it from a responsible, knowledgeable breeder and the dog has good genes, the chances of he or she having a hereditary disease is reduced. As for overall maintenance the most critical point is taking care of their face and it's wrinkles, they can also have skin diseases, Manolito had acne (just like teenagers) when he was younger, so that needed special attention.

But hereditary diseases such as hip displasia (sp?), entropion, enlongated soft palate, etc. are not uncommon of this breed saddly.

But their temper and lovable nature makes all the maintenance efforts worth it, they are so peaceful and easy going, they love to be silly and make you laugh. I also think they are beautiful dogs, I speacially love the colors of their cotas, Manito is red and white (my favorite variation).


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

very interesting reads. still owner or no owner at fault, when a dog treats me or someone else like an equal or lesser entity, i get mad. one of the most annoying things is a pint sized rat not respecting your space, eating off a table or plate, using the furnature more than any human does. generally though, yes, it is thte owners because the more ive thought about it, the more this behavior goes un noticed by them or they use phrases such as "oh shes just miss independant" or something. 
this is why i stated the whole "fake baby" theory before. i really think the "can do no wrong" mentality tells a lot about why an owner has a dog to begin with. never hit a child, never discipline a dog if you will...


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

i used to think that all small dogs were stupid, and hard to train, but it's been said in here several times it's all about training. If you pick up your little yappy rat thing everytime it gets scared and then coddle it when it barks, tell it how cute it is etc. I mean what do you expect? people reinforce horrible behavior with small dogs and they end up being little spoiled shits. My brother has a mexican hairless (Xoloitzcuintli) and he's trained it like a real dog. That has to be one of the coolest little dogs I've ever seen. Not to mention it's bald.

by the way, just put a deposit on a german shorthaired pointer pup. My first dog that i've owned on my own (my dog not my parents sort of thing) Pretty damn excited


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

cueball said:


> bulldogs get sick eazy....? never herd of that one and ive owned bulldogs


Not sick as in the viral/bacterial sense... Just they are genetically predisposed to a LOT of health problems... and even the really good breeders have a lot of issues in their lines that pop up from time to time.


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## Bawb2u (May 27, 2004)

I'm glad to see people are starting to realize it's the owners, not the small dogs fault. Look at it this way: Dogs don't know our language or customs. Suppose you were just dropped into a family in a country with a different language and totally different ways of doing things. They'd get pretty sick of your mistakes and ways of doing thing real fast and think that all people like you were no good and useless. Until someone teaches you right from wrong, you just don't know the difference.

When I first started to learn to train dogs, I worked with someone that was heavily into Schutzhund work and personal protection, which are very different schools of training. I've since taken two non-traditional dogs, a boxer and a standard schnauzer to Level 2 Shutzhund and have helped lots of people to get their dogs to a good place in training with obedience and agility work. One of the coolest things I ever saw was a woman with 5 mini-schnauzers trained for protection. Three were trained for "low" work. They would go in first and attack the legs and thighs. When the aggressor would bend down after them the other 2 would come in and work "high", sniping at the face, neck and cheeks. Shows just how smart and trainable small dogs can be. Me? I was the "idiot in the suit".


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

yeah im defanitly seeing its the owners not the dogs

but that said..i still dont like the way small dogs look. theyre...ugly!


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

M0RpH said:


> yeah im defanitly seeing its the owners not the dogs
> 
> but that said..i still dont like the way small dogs look. theyre...ugly!


Have you looked into ALL of the toy breeds? Personally i'm pretty freaking excited to get my hands on one of these:



















This is a Manchester Terrier (Over 12lbs its a 'standard', under 12lbs it is considered a Toy Manchester Terrier)- what the Doberman was bred UP from.

A really good friend of mine has one of these that I handled for them in the show ring, and I am promised a puppy out of the first litter. I can't wait!!!


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

hmm, not what comes to mind when i think toy dog. interesting tink.

thats really got a big dog look. . which is the only reason id like it. hense, i might as well get a larger breed. just my prefrence.


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## JAC (Jan 19, 2004)

Tinkerbelle said:


> [quote name='M0RpH' post='2140946' date='Feb 18 2008, 07:00
> 
> This is a Manchester Terrier (Over 12lbs its a 'standard', under 12lbs it is considered a Toy Manchester Terrier)- what the Doberman was bred UP from.
> 
> A really good friend of mine has one of these that I handled for them in the show ring, and I am promised a puppy out of the first litter. I can't wait!!!


 Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but is that in the first pic a doberman or a manchester terrier? I think it's a doberman but maybe it's the picture that makes the mterrier look larger.


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## pcrose (Mar 9, 2003)

why do they have to be so picky with dogs my bf despises wrinkly dogs such as the bulldog and the pug.


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## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

pcrose said:


> why do they have to be so picky with dogs my bf despises wrinkly dogs such as the bulldog and the pug.


Bulldog cool. Pug not cool.


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

ive had lots of breeds over the years and now i well never get anything but a working breed dog,,,and nothing under 80 pounds,,i think iam going for a rottie next, ive had boxers, bulldogs, airdales i love protective DOORBELL dogs,,, the kind that well let ya knwo someones around before they even get to the steps... i have had toy dogs and every one ive owned bites at me so i well never got a small breed again.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

the ultimate "small" dog. was very close to buying one a few years back.


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

those are pitts right.. dude theres not a small dog... anythig that can kill a bull isnt a small dog,,lol


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

they are not pits dumbass!!


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

well you could have took the guess work out of it and told us what they are..---> Dummass<----

not a registered breed thats for shure....


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

cueball said:


> well you could have took the guess work out of it and told us what they are..---> Dummass<----
> 
> *not a registered breed thats for shure....*


self









chill im only yanking your chain!

im going to let someone else tell you so you realize they are quite a common breed!


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Are they staff. terriors?


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

yanking your chain,,,ha now i laugh.....staff. terrior fa show....


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

Staffordshire bull terrier is correct!

freakin awesome dogs!


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

C0Rey said:


> Staffordshire bull terrier is correct!
> 
> freakin awesome dogs!


Awesome dogs.
Here is a pup my mother wanted. I like the cane corso though. pictured below!






















Cane corso







and 







My boy. as you can see he ate part of the couch! That was teh 1st and last time that happened. That couch is his now and is going in our new houses basement for him probably


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

hyphen said:


> exactly. many many small dogs are used extremely ruggedly to this day. i hate the mentality that people have these days. "oh blah, if it isn't as big as my pitbull then it's a pansy dog!" * throw your doberman pinscher into a forest during winter in maine and see how long he lasts.*


Could someone please explain the relivance of this statement? I mean, come on dude. We all know that Dobermans were bred to be personal protection dogs for German officers. They are bred to be PEOPLE dogs. In other words, they need to be taken care of. They don't have a thick coat, nor have they ever been a wild animal. So why would your statement even matter? Take ANY dog raised in a household....I don't give a sh*t what it is, bottom line is...if it wasn't raised to be able to provide for it's self...it will most likely die. I guess I just don't understand what your point is here. It means nothing at all. Big deal, it is not a wolf, and can't survive the cold. Hell, go to Hawaii....choose any dude off the beach....go drop him in the woods in maine during the winter and see how long he lasts.

It's not like a dog can "prepare" to fit his surroundings. They can't just grow a thick coat if they want to. You are comparing apples to oranges here.

choose one breed that you can take directly out of someones home, and drop them in the winter woods, and expect it to survive. You can't do it because there is none.

Stupid statement Hyphen....sorry for the rant


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## Plum (May 4, 2006)

Interesting.

Some of these views dismay the fact that society has evolved and we are no longer in great need of animals that are able to hunt - as we have plentiful amounts of foods in the grocery store. Nor are we in need great need of animals that defend - as we live in a very peaceful society for the most part in the USA and Canada.

The needs of society here has changed. Our pets are no longer needed for the hunt, nor to defend. They are needed for love and caring.

The 60lbs pitbull is no longer in high demand for the sole reason that it does not fit on your lap.

That's it in a nut shell. This is why we have all these unsuitable breeds that you site. It is the result of an ever evolving society.

Society has produced something much more terrible through socialistic views and governments - the inferior **** sapien. I would argue that these creatures are unable to produce in an ever changing world, and have to result to government assisstance. Some might argue that we could leave them in the wilderness for a week and they would not survive!!! Weaklings...

And believe it or not - we allow them all to breed.


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

notaverage said:


> Cane corso
> View attachment 162745
> 
> and
> ...


That is probibly the worst example of a Carne Corso I have ever seen. About the size of a boxer. Bad example bro!

And you were saying that your dog is a Carne corso too????? Looks more like an american bulldog mix, maybe full blooded...IDK. What is he?


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

Plum said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Some of these views dismay the fact that society has evolved and we are no longer in great need of animals that are able to hunt - as we have plentiful amounts of foods in the grocery store. Nor are we in need great need of animals that defend - as we live in a very peaceful society for the most part in the USA and Canada.
> 
> ...


Actualy man...pitbulls have been bred up...not down. They were originaly 25-40 lbs I think. Tiny compared to what people have made them today, if there even is a real pit anymore. Staffordshire terriers, APBT...who knows anymore.


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

Plum said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Some of these views dismay the fact that society has evolved and we are no longer in great need of animals that are able to hunt - as we have plentiful amounts of foods in the grocery store. Nor are we in need great need of animals that defend - as we live in a very peaceful society for the most part in the USA and Canada.
> 
> ...


stop trying to be deep, never say the word society again and cease to exist. your not thinking on a level and expressing deep thoughts that make revelations to our statements. your wasting precious space and red blood cells. society society society. the point is the necesity of certain dogs, its the relevance. its the dog itself. its what nature intended and what....socccccciety...made. 
society society
just tell me its the evil corporations and we can leave it at that. go smoke another bowl.


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## Plum (May 4, 2006)

M0RpH said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Some of these views dismay the fact that society has evolved and we are no longer in great need of animals that are able to hunt - as we have plentiful amounts of foods in the grocery store. Nor are we in need great need of animals that defend - as we live in a very peaceful society for the most part in the USA and Canada.
> 
> ...


stop trying to be deep, never say the word society again and cease to exist. your not thinking on a level and expressing deep thoughts that make revelations to our statements. your wasting precious space and red blood cells. society society society. the point is the necesity of certain dogs, its the relevance. its the dog itself. its what nature intended and what....socccccciety...made. 
society society
just tell me its the evil corporations and we can leave it at that. go smoke another bowl.
[/quote]

Sorry there bud - was just for grins at the end, the portion of society developing a more terrible creature. Was not smoking a bowl, was more playing devils advocate. As for me being an anti-corporate slug, quite the opposite - as I work the 9 to 5, and hail all things Wall Street. Enjoyed the rise of Canada's loonie? I am currently buying American Stock just for the sake of having your currency in my portfolio! Can't keep Uncle Sam down for too long - Sub Prime mess or not.

Nature intended many things to be, not what they are today I suppose is the point I would have liked to make. It is our influence on things. We influence change on nature, so that it suits our needs, our ever changing needs.

oh ya - society society....


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## Plum (May 4, 2006)

Leasure1 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Some of these views dismay the fact that society has evolved and we are no longer in great need of animals that are able to hunt - as we have plentiful amounts of foods in the grocery store. Nor are we in need great need of animals that defend - as we live in a very peaceful society for the most part in the USA and Canada.
> 
> ...


Actualy man...pitbulls have been bred up...not down. They were originaly 25-40 lbs I think. Tiny compared to what people have made them today, if there even is a real pit anymore. Staffordshire terriers, APBT...who knows anymore.
[/quote]

We stray from the point - if there was a good one according to Morph. Pit bull is a vague term applied to an assortment of dogs. I believe you are very correct to say that they have been bread larger ie: past twenty years.

Heck I have a girl that is 55lbs .


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Leasure1 said:


> Cane corso
> View attachment 162745
> 
> and
> ...


That is probibly the worst example of a Carne Corso I have ever seen. About the size of a boxer. Bad example bro!

And you were saying that your dog is a Carne corso too????? Looks more like an american bulldog mix, maybe full blooded...IDK. What is he?
[/quote]

No no no. AB all the way. The pics are misleading of the Cane Corso' a I only got a few pics but they were much bigger then a boxer, my fiances parents have 2. As far as Cane corso they are the only pics I had. A friend of the family breeds them and they are a lot stockier then what this picture showed. 
But NO I have an AB.


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

Plum said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Some of these views dismay the fact that society has evolved and we are no longer in great need of animals that are able to hunt - as we have plentiful amounts of foods in the grocery store. Nor are we in need great need of animals that defend - as we live in a very peaceful society for the most part in the USA and Canada.
> 
> ...


stop trying to be deep, never say the word society again and cease to exist. your not thinking on a level and expressing deep thoughts that make revelations to our statements. your wasting precious space and red blood cells. society society society. the point is the necesity of certain dogs, its the relevance. its the dog itself. its what nature intended and what....socccccciety...made. 
society society
just tell me its the evil corporations and we can leave it at that. go smoke another bowl.
[/quote]

Sorry there bud - was just for grins at the end, the portion of society developing a more terrible creature. Was not smoking a bowl, was more playing devils advocate. As for me being an anti-corporate slug, quite the opposite - as I work the 9 to 5, and hail all things Wall Street. Enjoyed the rise of Canada's loonie? I am currently buying American Stock just for the sake of having your currency in my portfolio! Can't keep Uncle Sam down for too long - Sub Prime mess or not.

Nature intended many things to be, not what they are today I suppose is the point I would have liked to make. It is our influence on things. We influence change on nature, so that it suits our needs, our ever changing needs.

oh ya - society society....








[/quote]

much better post lol
just givin ya sh*t plum









this thread grew quite larger than expected. its interesting hearing some thoughts on a seemingly very simple observation. im going to have to read through some posts again to gather some of this in. you people never cease to amaze me with your insight. society...


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## Plum (May 4, 2006)

No problem!

cough,.. cough...

s
o
c
i
e
t
y


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

/like plum

so may i inquire as to any dogs you own plum? tell me a little bout yourself sir/ma'am?


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

JAC said:


> Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but is that in the first pic a doberman or a manchester terrier? I think it's a doberman but maybe it's the picture that makes the mterrier look larger.


Nope its a Manc. The angle is slightly deceptive (which is why I picked the picture). Standards can have their ears cropped- but note that the tail is NOT cropped. Also note the scale of the dog in reference to the grass... Definately a Manchester









They are probably the most 'not toy', Toy breed. The standard competes in the Terrier group, while the Toys compete of course in the Toy group. In any given litter you can end up with both Toy and Standards. Toys may only have natural, standing ears, while Standards may have standing, flopped, or cropped.

Other interesting breeds in the toy group are the Toy Fox Terrier and the Affenpinscher- both dogs actually bred to serve a purpose... Ratting!


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## pcrose (Mar 9, 2003)

this is my staffordshire terrier
he thinks he is a lap dog and he weighs about 70lbs my friends' weighs about 100 and it is a female. I still think that all pups have a purpose.


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

yeah pcrose, but you have to admit when looking and some of these breeds now that the ONLYYYY purpose some have are to fill an emotional gap in someones life. some cant even breathe right let alone contribute anything to a household or nature


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## Plum (May 4, 2006)

M0RpH said:


> /like plum
> 
> so may i inquire as to any dogs you own plum? tell me a little bout yourself sir/ma'am?


1 Pitbull - 55lbs
1 Pitbull mix - 75 lbs

I am male - Work my 9 to 5 for a Canadian telco company where I work in Corporate Sales.

That's pretty well it - live an hour outside Ottawa ( small city - about 1 millong people ). Live in the country so I can have my pitbulls and people leave me alone ( they are illegal in the entire provincec ( state )). Putting an addition onto the home, and of course the basement is going to be dedicated to primarily Piranha's.


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## pcrose (Mar 9, 2003)

M0RpH said:


> yeah pcrose, but you have to admit when looking and some of these breeds now that the ONLYYYY purpose some have are to fill an emotional gap in someones life. some cant even breathe right let alone contribute anything to a household or nature


very true but then the human takes care of them. just like the fact that bulldogs have a lot of health problems and when I have enough money to take care of one I will buy one. Why because I am fond of them and I have always wanted one. I understand what you are saying I have a friend who made this same point as you did and she just decides not to have an animal.


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## Plum (May 4, 2006)

pcrose said:


> this is my staffordshire terrier
> he thinks he is a lap dog and he weighs about 70lbs my friends' weighs about 100 and it is a female. I still think that all pups have a purpose.


So true. Typical pit bull.

I have owned 4 of them, and they are all the same. Even once we had a stray come by, that we tried to re-habilitate, but was badly abused. He was vicious with men, and wrecked my hand pretty bad, but still adored my girlfriend. 90 lbs lap dog.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

My AB is the same way. Big lap dog. Most dogs I have had thought they were though. Even our Irish Wolfhound! Big bastard would climb on my G-fathers lap while he was in the recliner all the time!


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

Leasure1 said:


> exactly. many many small dogs are used extremely ruggedly to this day. i hate the mentality that people have these days. "oh blah, if it isn't as big as my pitbull then it's a pansy dog!" * throw your doberman pinscher into a forest during winter in maine and see how long he lasts.*


Could someone please explain the relivance of this statement? I mean, come on dude. We all know that Dobermans were bred to be personal protection dogs for German officers. They are bred to be PEOPLE dogs. In other words, they need to be taken care of. They don't have a thick coat, nor have they ever been a wild animal. So why would your statement even matter? Take ANY dog raised in a household....I don't give a sh*t what it is, bottom line is...if it wasn't raised to be able to provide for it's self...it will most likely die. I guess I just don't understand what your point is here. It means nothing at all. Big deal, it is not a wolf, and can't survive the cold. Hell, go to Hawaii....choose any dude off the beach....go drop him in the woods in maine during the winter and see how long he lasts.

It's not like a dog can "prepare" to fit his surroundings. They can't just grow a thick coat if they want to. You are comparing apples to oranges here.

choose one breed that you can take directly out of someones home, and drop them in the winter woods, and expect it to survive. You can't do it because there is none.

Stupid statement Hyphen....sorry for the rant
[/quote]

Pretty sure that was his point--that all dogs are equally unlikely to survive in situations in which wolves could.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

I dont think so.


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

bull dogs have teeth problem... give me some details..? ive owned bulllz and never had no problems( what kind of teeth problems)?


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Who said that? I didnt. Maybe they meant bulldogs. I have an American Bulldog. Different breed.


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## pcrose (Mar 9, 2003)

I said health problems not teeth problems although now you can even get your dog braces. I kid you not. There are people that take things too far. My bestfriend jackie her sister wants to leave a trustfund for her dog in case she dies and she is 30. She is an odd duck.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Oh boy....Morph will have something to say about that! A trust fund? hahaha


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

pcrose said:


> I said health problems not teeth problems although now you can even get your dog braces. I kid you not. There are people that take things too far. My bestfriend jackie her sister wants to leave a trustfund for her dog in case she dies and she is 30. She is an odd duck.


to each their own.. who am i to nay say what you do with your money? i think humans would appreciate that more yes, but what the hell. i cant preach about economy on another thread and talk against it here. its your money its your choice.

and i do acknowledge that to some their dog is their best friend and all they have. so hell, whats wrong with someone being happy leaving something for their buddy in case they pass?


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## blacklabel (Feb 12, 2007)

i would like to see a mix between a male great dane and a female daschund.


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## pcrose (Mar 9, 2003)

M0RpH said:


> I said health problems not teeth problems although now you can even get your dog braces. I kid you not. There are people that take things too far. My bestfriend jackie her sister wants to leave a trustfund for her dog in case she dies and she is 30. She is an odd duck.


to each their own.. who am i to nay say what you do with your money? i think humans would appreciate that more yes, but what the hell. i cant preach about economy on another thread and talk against it here. its your money its your choice.

and i do acknowledge that to some their dog is their best friend and all they have. so hell, whats wrong with someone being happy leaving something for their buddy in case they pass?
[/quote]
it happens a lot more than you think


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## airtorey15 (Jun 15, 2003)

So i just read this in my psych. book, i think it applies im just gonna quote it:

Dmitry Belyaev....wondered how our human ancestors had domesticated dogs from their equally wild wolf forebears. Might he, within a comparatively short stretch of time, accomplish a similar feat by transforming the fearful fox into a friendly fox?
To find out, Belyaev set to work with 30 male and 100 female foxes. From their offspring he selected and mated the tamest 5 percent of males and 20 percent of females. Over more than 30 generations of foxes, Belyaev and his successor, Lyundmila Trut, repeated that simple procedure. Today, more than 40 years and 45000 foxes leter, they have a new breed of foxes that, in Turt's words, are "docile, eager to please, and unmistakably domesticated... Before our eyes, 'the beast' has turned into 'beauty,' as the aggressive behavior of our herd's wild [ancestors] entirely disappeared." So friendly and eager for human contact are they, so inclined to whimper to attract attention and to lick people like affectionate cats, that the cashstrapped institute seized on a way to raise funds-marketing its foxes to people as house pets.

I thought of this thread when i was reading this. The point is that when certain traits are selected- by conferring a reproductive advantage to an individual or a species-those traits, over time, will prevail. It raises the issue of selective reproductive advantage being applied to humans. Well i gotta finish reading and MAN my tooth huRTS!!!


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

pcrose said:


> I said health problems not teeth problems although now you can even get your dog braces. I kid you not. There are people that take things too far. My bestfriend jackie her sister wants to leave a trustfund for her dog in case she dies and she is 30. She is an odd duck.


to each their own.. who am i to nay say what you do with your money? i think humans would appreciate that more yes, but what the hell. i cant preach about economy on another thread and talk against it here. its your money its your choice.

and i do acknowledge that to some their dog is their best friend and all they have. so hell, whats wrong with someone being happy leaving something for their buddy in case they pass?
[/quote]
it happens a lot more than you think
[/quote]

i know it does and that disturbs me. especially when the dogs are in someones will but family members are not. thats just rediculous and your dog wont be thankful when your gone. your dog might have dreams or some feeling of missing its owner when your gone, but to dump monetary savings on a dog is about as meaningful as marrying a tree. youll find the emotion somewhat one sided.


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

BlackLabel said:


> i would like to see a mix between a male great dane and a female daschund.


Unless it was done via artificial insemination, it wouldn't be physically possible... And most likely the mother wouldn't be able to carry the puppies to term.

I HAVE seen a daschund/great Pyrenees cross... mom was great Pyrenees, dad was a dachie and it was a HUGE mistake at a handler's house- weird looking dogs.


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