# The BIBLE



## bobme (Feb 17, 2003)

I am not a real person to stand up for the bible, or say whats right and worng in what people beleave in however i do belive this.
The bible, i think its a load of crap. However maybe its called the bible because of what it could stand for.
BIBLE = Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth
Kinda cool eh?


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## losts0ul916 (Nov 19, 2003)

bobme said:


> The bible, i think its a load of crap.


 I second that!


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

its a bunch of crazy sh*t with some actual history mixed in. The history portions in it are (ab)used by believers to justify the book as being fully grounded in fact.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2004)

bobme said:


> BIBLE = Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth


 Very creative.



> ts a bunch of crazy sh*t with some actual history mixed in. The history portions in it are (ab)used by believers to justify the book as being fully grounded in fact.


As a Christian, I don't read the Bible as a historical document. When I read the Bible, I try to comprehend the metaphors in the text; -the cannotations, rather than a literal interpretation.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

true, i should have said 'many believers' instead of inferring 'all'


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## etalon9100 (Jul 4, 2003)

It's a story invented so that people have something to look forward to after they die.

Oh, and people were sick of people taking things that didn't belong to them, so they put in the 10 commandments.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

I think besides being a book about historic events, it's main purpose is providing guidelines on morality and how to live your live, what is good and what is bad, how to act when facing a certain situation.

And us humble humans choose wheter to use them and put strength from them, or not - I don't.


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## WilliamBradley (Nov 23, 2003)

bobme said:


> I am not a real person to stand up for the bible, or say whats right and worng in what people beleave in however i do belive this.
> The bible, i think its a load of crap. However maybe its called the bible because of what it could stand for.
> BIBLE = Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth
> Kinda cool eh?


 religions ruined humanity


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## RedRider748 (May 6, 2003)

WoW ................


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

That acronym was first coined by the Wu Tang Clan in their album "Welcome to the 36th Chamber".


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## ChosenOne22 (Nov 23, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> its a bunch of crazy sh*t with some actual history mixed in. The history portions in it are (ab)used by believers to justify the book as being fully grounded in fact.


 couldnt have said it any better


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2004)

WilliamBradley said:


> religions ruined humanity


I disagree.

I think it's hard to deny that the world changed for the better when the Jews began practicing ethical monotheism, -the belief that there is one God whose primary demand of people is that they act decently toward one another.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

I personally feel the Bible is the most important book on this planet. A direct line of thought from God to us. How amazing is it that this divine piece of literature can be picked up at any Wal-Mart and I have one sitting on my bookshelf right now.

But of course these are just my personal opinions.


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> I think besides being a book about historic events, it's main purpose is providing guidelines on morality and how to live your live, what is good and what is bad, how to act when facing a certain situation.
> 
> And us humble humans choose wheter to use them and put strength from them, or not - I don't.


 wow.jonas i know your stance on religion..but well said..maybe there is something inside of you that does believe


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

I beleive the Bible is 100% true and naturally i beleive in god as well. the Bible is gods word, his way of communicating to use, it has alot, if every human being on the earth followed the bible truly then their would be no wars.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

thePACK said:


> Judazzz said:
> 
> 
> > I think besides being a book about historic events, it's main purpose is providing guidelines on morality and how to live your live, what is good and what is bad, how to act when facing a certain situation.
> ...


No worries about me joining you at your service, Raf... (on second thought....














)

Me not being religious doesn't mean I'm turning it down or am against it - I know how many people it has helped in one way or another...
I've dealt with religion a lot when I was still attending univ., and imo. it's mighty interesting: perhaps the most interesting human creation.

It's just that as soon as religion comes into contact with politics, eventually there's only one possible outcome (and there are no exceptions, imo.): disaster...
Look what humans have done and are doing to each other in the name of their god.
Politics and religion are simply not compatible - period!


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> I think besides being a book about historic events, it's main purpose is providing guidelines on morality and how to live your live, what is good and what is bad, how to act when facing a certain situation.
> 
> And us humble humans choose wheter to use them and put strength from them, or not - I don't.


 I gotta say...that was well said, I hope that makes sense.

The Bible is NOT a historical document, but history does prove again and again different Biblical accounts as historically accurate.

For example...the latest is King David. There is (was) no historical evidence of a King named David. Now it seems that there has been unearthed different evidence of a King that came to the throne that was not of family line...named David. This is just one example.

Many, many people feel that the Bible is a joke. A few feel that it is the inspired word of God...I am one of them.

Just my thoughts...

Jeffrey


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

Judazzz said:


> I think besides being a book about historic events, it's main purpose is providing guidelines on morality and how to live your live, what is good and what is bad, how to act when facing a certain situation.
> 
> And us humble humans choose wheter to use them and put strength from them, or not - I don't.


 i do agree that at the time when people where still acting like barbarians, the bible did help people teach right and wrong but it should not be taken nearly as seriously as some people who read into to it too much and base there entire existance around the bible and jesus and all this crap..

this lady i work with is insane she takes her religon (some type of christianity) to a cult like level.. i heard her oin the phone this morning talking about some situation she was in where she was talking to someone and she said "im so happy i was able to just let the lord take over and talk for me and guide me through this, he was in control and said all the right things for me, im glad he answered my prayers and took control of this blah blah blah" she was going on for a couple minutes about how she had no control over anything and god or who ever did it all for her, and its that fact that these types of religous freaks are out there that is really messed up.. this woman honestly belives that she has no control over things and god guides her or takes control of her to give her the ability to do things... and she aparently has a bunch of friends that are just as nuts as she is... scary...


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

As a longtime studier of the occult the bible is a very real artifact, of actual occurrences. Most of it is hidden in Hebrew and Greek gem atria. The book was fashioned by a group of pure geniuses. To the un-initiated and learned, it is a factual book of parables describing how to like a decent life. It also depicts the punishments for not living a decent life. To the learned it contains passages of evoking the angel of death!!! "The final plague Moses put on the Egyptians" It also give methods of direct communication with angelic forces, and the ultimate divinity. The 1st 5 books called the Torah have enough information about the construction of the universe to truly amaze the human mind.

Then ending with the ultimate group of 13. 1 master mage and 12 practitioners is understood by very few.

But those are just my beliefs through study, and personal opinion.

It is the ultimate book for whatever path you choose in life.


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## TormenT (Apr 1, 2004)

hello, i have been roaming around this site for a couple of weeks now and was saving my first post to be one with pictures of my fully finished rbp tank. but now i guess that it will have to be my 2nd post. people believe in god & the bible. the bible is not all fake. its is more of an acurate fairy tale :nod: . the bible(having read most of it) has many diff stories explaning how our surrondngs and how we came to be (like most other religions) but it also teaches us how to live a happy successful live(not money wise of course







) plus i believe that the bible is the most acurate, and sainest, depiction of what happened...(even though mel gibson is a crazy basterd that exploits this,







lol soth park) and even if it isnt true(the story, not the morals, anyways) it still gives a numerous amount of people a reason to believe in a better place, and there isnt anything wrong with that.......ill be posting pix soon of my rbp tank so keep a look out lol!


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## con man (Mar 7, 2004)

people say the bible is word for word wat god sed b4 he died and what not

bullshit it was written untill like 250 years after his death it must of changed if it was passed by word of mouth no way in hell it could b accurate all tales get twisted in any ammount of time

word of mouth my ass

jesus was a chxcik and there was a black apostle

might as well of amde her a ***** cuz that show corrupt it was back then u coulda paid some one t amke a bible .... lol


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

con man said:


> bullshit it was written untill like 250 years after his death it must of changed if it was passed by word of mouth no way in hell it could b accurate all tales get twisted in any ammount of time


 another valid point. The bible, or at least the new testament, and all the info thereien, was written by catholic church officials in a very arbitrary manner in the first couple hundred years of the Common Era (AD)


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

con man said:


> people say the bible is word for word wat god sed b4 he died and what not
> 
> bullshit it was written untill like 250 years after his death it must of changed if it was passed by word of mouth no way in hell it could b accurate all tales get twisted in any ammount of time
> 
> ...


 You are incorrect. The 1st 5 books were written by Moses. They are called the Torah. There is also what is called the Dead Sea scrolls. Carbon dating matches the times depicted in the Bible. The book was dictated by a higher intelligence to man. There was a group of instructor and students @ Harvard University looking into this gem atria and the Torah. They found shocking information. By applying energies, numbers, and gender the letters in the bible. Passages generated mathematics more complex than Einstein's theory of relatively, unified field theory, and quantum physics. The same group of Harvard University people attempted to duplicate the arc of the covenant. Its design is called out directly in the bible. The agreed it was a communication device for extraterrestrial life forms. Those are facts about the bible. It wasn't just something fabricated. It was composed by the highest intelligence we can conceive.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> You are incorrect. The 1st 5 books were written by Moses. They are called the Torah. There is also what is called the Dead Sea scrolls. Carbon dating matches the times depicted in the Bible. The book was dictated by a higher intelligence to man. There was a group of instructor and students @ Harvard University looking into this gem atria and the Torah. They found shocking information. By applying energies, numbers, and gender the letters in the bible. Passages generated mathematics more complex than Einstein's theory of relatively, unified field theory, and quantum physics. The same group of Harvard University people attempted to duplicate the arc of the covenant. Its design is called out directly in the bible. The agreed it was a communication device for extraterrestrial life forms. Those are facts about the bible. It wasn't just something fabricated. It was composed by the highest intelligence we can conceive.


That doesnt apply to the new testament, though. Fully fabricated from clergymen in the first few hundred years of the common era.

I think these claims of the Harvard study and such must be coming with a good spoonful of skepticism from the rest of the civilized world, cuz otherwise there'd be alot more research if not government intervention on this issue. I'd like to hear what the opponents to this "research" say.


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## 14_blast (Oct 6, 2003)

P45, what are your thoughts about the Da Vinci Codes?


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2004)

*TormenT -Welcome to P-Fury!! *


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

14_blast said:


> P45, what are your thoughts about the Da Vinci Codes?


I know nothing about that topic. I presume leonardo was abducted by aliens and granted special knowledge?:laugh:

seriously though I wouldnt mind looking into them some time

gah, damn it, must... stop visiting... Lounge


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

piranha45 said:


> That doesnt apply to the new testament, though. Fully fabricated from clergymen in the first few hundred years of the common era.


Actually the apostles wrote some of them and they had direct interaction with Jesus.

The "New Testament" was written between approximately 49 AD and 95 AD. Hardly the hundreds of years you are professing.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Some of the actual pages from the true bible are still around. They travel around so the world can see them. They are so old, that a camera flash will destroy the parchment. No photos are allowed when they are on display.

As for the New Testament??? I haven't delved deeply into it. It's construction and authenticity, and can't give a good answer. There has been a phenomenal about of debate about the New testament since Christ was depicted as the Messiah. Perhaps it was intentionally veiled. Faith is the true strength for any occultist. To believe what one can not prove. My faith makes be believe it to be true. The Christ was professed for centuries. After his death, there were no more prophesy of his coming. There are other artifacts that correlate to the New Testament. Carbon dating matches the time existence of Christ.

You are correct Xenon. The apostles wrote them. Some of their chapters even have the authors names. Mathew, Mark, Luke, and my favorite, and most graphical John


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## erikcooper (Feb 18, 2004)

I believe in the Bible and what it stands for. There is a God, and I am worshipping the right one. No reason to take it to the extremes some people do though...



> Politics and religion are simply not compatible - period!


Look at what is going on with all this ignorant censorship in the U.S. right now. They do not mix at all.



> was written by catholic church officials


Catholics do not even study the New Testament...


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

*Old Testament Writers*
1400 BC - 430 BC.

* Moses
* Joshua
* Samuel
* Jeremiah
* Ezra
* Men of the Great Synagogue
* King David
* Heman the Ezrahite
* Ethan the Ezrahite
* Asaph
* The sons of Korah
* King Solomon
* Isaiah
* Ezekiel
* Daniel
* Hosea
* Joel
* Amos
* Obadiah
* Jonah
* Micah
* Nahum
* Habakkuk
* Zephaniah
* Haggai
* Zechariah
* Malachi

*New Testament Writers*
49 AD-95 AD

* The apostle Matthew
* Mark
* Luke
* The apostle John
* James
* Jude
* The apostle Peter
* The apostle Paul


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## Denver (Mar 18, 2004)

Xenon said:


> That acronym was first coined by the Wu Tang Clan in their album "Welcome to the 36th Chamber".


 actually it was from the Genius album 'Liquid Swords'


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

The Bible is a collection of writings to guide followers is such a manner to keep a few people "at the top " in a style of living that is far out of reach for the followers .
The Bible is a load of







CRAP







. I watch my brother pay over 10% of his takehome pay to the church.







while he drives around in a VERY unsafe car for lack of funds for a new one.....

Spirituality comes from inside , not from a book.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Denver said:


> Xenon said:
> 
> 
> > That acronym was first coined by the Wu Tang Clan in their album "Welcome to the 36th Chamber".
> ...


 your right!











> Fossilized Human Footprint With Trilobite..."The oldest fossil footprint yet found was discovered in June 1968 by William J. Meister on an expedition to Antelope Spring, 43 miles west of Delta, Utah, USA. He was accompanied by his wife and two daughters, and by Mr. and Mrs. Francis Shape and their two daughters. The party had already discovered several fossils of trilobites when Meister split open a two-inch-thick slab of rock with his hammer and discovered the print. The rock fell open 'like a book' revealing on one side the footprint of a human with trilobites right in the footprint itself. The other half of the rock slab showed an almost perfect mold of the footprint and fossils. Amazingly the human was wearing a sandal! The sandal that seems to have crushed a living trilobite was 10 1/4 inches long and 3 1/2 inches wide; the heel is indented slightly more than the sole, as a human shoe print would be." According to the "Theory of Evolution" humans and trilobites would not have been around at the same time, but as the photo shows, they were.


'


















Scientists for years have gone about trying to disprove the Bible. Thus far they have all failed miserably.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Many occultist use the phrase "The Magick of today is the science of tomorrow" Many scholars have looked deeply into the bible letter by letter. It is being more and more understood each day. Everything point to a supreme being authoring it. Things that are not understood are often examined scientifically.

But everything and I mean everything points to the bible being real. Chronological instances and secret hidden symbolism. None could be conceived by a man. That is a fact. We can even look to the land of the piranha. There are some South American Indian tribes who have fashioned images of Christ. He apparently visited them after his death. The images match the era in carbon dating. How do you explain it??? You can't. The fact out weigh the doubts.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> You can't. The fact out weigh the doubts.


 People dont pay attention to facts when it means they will have to look at themselves and admit they are flawed.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

winkyee said:


> The Bible is a collection of writings to guide followers is such a manner to keep a few people "at the top " in a style of living that is far out of reach for the followers .
> The Bible is a load of
> 
> 
> ...


 OMG... For shame. Tithing is mentioned in the bible. Since the beginning of man; man was asked to give some of what he received for gratitude. How can a person honestly put a price on being allowed to live another day. Look what the government asks for Taxes. You pay to fit in society. Then why not pay for being given the gift of life and a possible immortality in a divine kingdom.

Winkyee... I'm shocked. Back in the days of the Old Testament, all gave a percentage of their good. Abraham loved god so much, he was going to sacrifice his only son. Faith my man. That's what it's all about. Few people have faith in a lasting government, put constantly pay taxes. Don't take for granted the gift of life. Be thankful, and sponsor some kind of religious organization.

Don't be angry with me.. It's just an opinion. No organization can function in to days society for free. Just maybe god knew where we were leading, and made titheing mandatory???


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## MoeMZA (Feb 19, 2004)

Xenon said:


> I personally feel the Bible is the most important book on this planet. A direct line of thought from God to us. How amazing is it that this divine piece of literature can be picked up at any Wal-Mart and I have one sitting on my bookshelf right now.
> 
> But of course these are just my personal opinions.


 XENON is indeed correct on one thing. It was from WUTANG. To be more specific, it's from GZA's album 'Liquid Swords.'

As far as the bible being the most direct line of thought from God, I have to disagree. The bible has been written by many authors and has been revised more then 50 times. The Quran (Islamic bible) on the other hand, is said to be the word of God by Muslims and has NEVER been changed for 1400+ years.


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

not revised by original authors, the scripts for the bibel as it originally was are still around(the bible i have is those scripts translated. not revised)


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## ViBE (Jul 22, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> its a bunch of crazy sh*t with some actual history mixed in. The history portions in it are (ab)used by believers to justify the book as being fully grounded in fact.


 Oh dear.

What a bad thing to say to a good book.

I think the bible is awsome. It has basic rules that I believe is great. Good morals and stuff. Besides that, it gave us a bit about our history. Think of it this way, if the bible never came tru, chances are, people will think stealing is right, and killing is right. If so, I wouldn't hesitate a moment to kill people like you.









I used to be a christian. I still think the bible's rules are correct (IMO) but I currently dont know if there really is a god. Or if the god is either christ or Jehovah. So basically, i worship no one. Until there are concrete proof of a specific god, I will not worship any.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

so basically what all of this is leading to is that the bible is the hand book for the largest cult in the world.. thats really what it is, a cult that is widely accepted..

"NOUN: 1a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. b. The followers of such a religion or sect. 
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual. 
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual. 
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease. 
5a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing. b. The object of such devotion. 
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest "

- American Heritage® Dictionary


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

ViBE said:


> piranha45 said:
> 
> 
> > its a bunch of crazy sh*t with some actual history mixed in. The history portions in it are (ab)used by believers to justify the book as being fully grounded in fact.
> ...


 Well i guess i am not the only one here who knows gods true name


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## ViBE (Jul 22, 2003)

Markosaur said:


> ViBE said:
> 
> 
> > piranha45 said:
> ...


 You mean Jehovah?

lol, I used to be a Jehovah Witness. I must say, the people there are nice.


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## Denver (Mar 18, 2004)

I believe most of the stories in the Bible. I have a hard time swallowing the resurrection though. I believe Jesus was a man. I also believe he may have been a prophet. But I don't believe he was the son of God.


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## channafreak (Mar 27, 2004)

Markosaur said:


> I beleive the Bible is 100% true and naturally i beleive in god as well. the Bible is gods word, his way of communicating to use, it has alot, if every human being on the earth followed the bible truly then their would be no wars.


 If everyone followed the Koran there would be no wars also. Its the most peaceful book I have ever read.


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## channafreak (Mar 27, 2004)

Xenon said:


> Denver said:
> 
> 
> > Xenon said:
> ...


 Thats your empiriacal evidence...... Science has disproved the bibles literal writing and the church for centurys now. Find a carbon date for the footprints compared to the fossile of the trilobite. I bet there is no such record. Its propaganda. How old do you think the planet is. According to archbishop James Usher from the mid 1600s, based upon geneologies taken from the bible working backward from the crucifixion the earth is no more than 5000 years old. Neither should of been there than. I beleive in the scientific method and empirical evidence obtained from observation or testable mechanisms. Creationism is based on faith, and faith only. Show me some proof that the scientific method can be applied with and I will change my views. btw the earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old based on the rates of decay of radioactive isotopes. It was probably two mango seeds.


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## channafreak (Mar 27, 2004)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> winkyee said:
> 
> 
> > The Bible is a collection of writings to guide followers is such a manner to keep a few people "at the top " in a style of living that is far out of reach for the followers .
> ...


 You just got done saying that your opinion was based on truth. Now you say to "have faith, thats what its all about man." Thats your way of explaining what you cant explain. Your opinion is based on your faith not truth. Man wrote the bible. You cant say that it for sure was divinely influenced because its "complex". 
Thats not a truth or a fact. For the record religions of the world have caused more suffering and death than any other force that our planet has ever seen. Christianity is no exception. Some of the worst persecutors over time has been the church. But yes there has been a lot of good done in the name of christ over the years. Just remember the other side of the coin.


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## channafreak (Mar 27, 2004)

Actually I take back my opinions.
Here is my new opinion.

Stupidest argument in history.


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## SLANTED (Dec 7, 2003)

> Thats your empiriacal evidence...... Science has disproved the bibles literal writing and the church for centurys now. Find a carbon date for the footprints compared to the fossile of the trilobite. I bet there is no such record. Its propaganda. How old do you think the planet is. According to archbishop James Usher from the mid 1600s, based upon geneologies taken from the bible working backward from the crucifixion the earth is no more than 5000 years old. Neither should of been there than. I beleive in the scientific method and empirical evidence obtained from observation or testable mechanisms. Creationism is based on faith, and faith only. Show me some proof that the scientific method can be applied with and I will change my views. btw the earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old based on the rates of decay of radioactive isotopes. It was probably two mango seeds.


Just wanted to point out a couple of things:

Actually, there has been a lot of scientific evidence that supports topics in the bible and christianity, some that have come out in the past ten years( I can outline some as they are really interesting and some great math is involved). And many famous and respectable scientists of our era have turned to the christian faith after some research into the subject. Of course, the reverse is true also.

And not all christians believe in the 2000 to 5000 year old earth/creation idea. A good book that illustrates this is Earth's Earliest Ages. The idea is based upon the verses Genisis 1:1-2 and Isaiah. The recovery version bible has excellent footnotes for Genisis 1:1-2 that outline and link the verses. It is really quite interesting.


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## sKuz (May 21, 2003)

i dont believe in religion or the bible. There are MANY different religions, with each and every one of them saying "OUR god is the REAL god and OUR religion is the right religion, OUR bible is the right bible. Everyone else is wrong and will go to hell if they dont believe what we believe" including christianity. 
I believe that i am a good person who is kind to my fellow man. If religion wants to tell me that i was born a sinner they can kiss off. Just an OPINION of mine.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

About a few months ago I came across a couple of books that opened my eyes more to the bible and what it has to offer. The two books are called The Bible Code and Bible Code II: The Countdown both of which are written by Michael Drosnin.

These two books show how the original Hebrew text of the bible fortells future world events. The first book speaks firstly what the Bible Code is. It goes on to show global issues that might arise such as Atomic Holocaust, Armageddon, the Apocalypse, etc. The second book however, goes into a little bit more detail with some actual events that have already occured and that were 'written' in the bible. Such events are about September 11th, 2001, Clinton, Bush, Arafat and some other topics.

However, the key is you cannot use the Bible Code in any translated version. It is all in the Old Hebrew Testament only. These two books do make predictions and they do show examples of how past events are recorded in the bible.

Im not saying any of this is true, but it is a good read and pretty interesting. For every statement they make they show you how and where in the text it is what they say.

I think its pretty amazing that book of stories that holds such strong morals has survived the test of time and is still being used and read today, not many books that I know of, have. If it was so bad as some of you claim, it wouldnt be so widely known about and still used.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> I think its pretty amazing that book of stories that holds such strong morals has survived the test of time and is still being used and read today, not many books that I know of, have. If it was so bad as some of you claim, it wouldnt be so widely known about and still used.


That means nothing

organisms have feared death/death's uncertainties since the beginning of existence, its only common sense that books which claim alleviation of death have been popular for so long

Its one of many anti-death cults, it just so happens that this anti-death cult is more popular than all the others.


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## channafreak (Mar 27, 2004)

comes down to this I guess
did god create man....
or did man create god....

This question will never, never be answered truthfully. Someone prove me wrong.
And I said PROVE.


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## LaZy (Jun 17, 2003)

losts0ul916 said:


> bobme said:
> 
> 
> > The bible, i think its a load of crap.
> ...


 well said


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## siclids (Mar 16, 2003)

> did god create man....


I cannot speak for anyone but myself........It is my *faith* in Him thats leads me to believe so


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## camotekid (Sep 21, 2003)

money is god!


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## t_h_e_s_a_c_k (Nov 16, 2003)

My question is why not?

What if it is true? Why wouldn't you want to live a good, pure life and go to heaven. I just think there has to be more than just living and dieng. We have to have been put on this Earth for a reason.

If it's not true, at least you'll have lived a good life and be remembered as a good person.


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## t_h_e_s_a_c_k (Nov 16, 2003)

I want someone to prove the Bible wrong for me.

If I knew the Bible isn't true I'd go hump as many girls as I can, do whatever I want.


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

if you don't want to beliive in god thats fine, ill have more room for my house in the afterlife.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

nitrofish said:


> if you don't want to beliive in god thats fine, ill have more room for my house in the afterlife.


 You better keep your music down


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

ViBE said:


> Markosaur said:
> 
> 
> > ViBE said:
> ...


 Jehovah. Nice call. In the Old Testament the name of god was 4 Hebrew letters and not allowed to be pronounced by many. The concept of Jehovah was constructed by the word "my lord or king" The vowels from the Hebrew word were place next to the 4 unspeakable letters, in an alternating fashion. This created a word all believers were allowed to use. *Jehovah.*

I am not, and have never been a Jehovah witness, but my studies yield to them being a very divine worshiping organization. Science has now developed a universal string theory. This is almost unconceivable. It is based off frequencies harmoniously resonating in 11 dimensional space. The irony in the string theory&#8230;. It is mathematically explained with Hebrew lettering in the bible. Everything we discover, and deem to be a great discovery, is hidden in the passages of the original bible. There is no way possible this book was written by what we perceive to be primitive man. There was an unquestionable a higher intelligence in its construction. Since the higher intelligence created the universe as we know it, and repeatable told man to exalt and fear him/her; we should all read learn and worship. Just as he fashioned us and our universe, he can destroy it. Exalt the lord for ever. Praise and thank him for the bounty of riches most people forget. LIFE!!!

This string theory gives understanding to god having multi-names. These names pronounced create a particular resonation, which is purely divine. Since the fall of the tower of Babylon, man has been punished with mass confusion, various racial arguments and a non universal language. This punishment has brought about many different translations of the holiest of holy documents. "*The Holy Bible*" All religions utilizing a bible with the correct number of scriptures and verses, can be deemed appropriate for study. There has been debate over some of the translations. Since ancient Hebrew and present day Hebrew are entirely different; the translations arguments are easily understood. To the average person faith in the word of the bible assures eternal happiness. To the learned the bible is much more. It accurately describes the abundance of energy in the universe. It also accurately describes how to manipulate the energy. Most of those manipulations were classified as miracles in the bible. Read study, and learn all you can about the world we live in. There will come a dreadful day when this knowledge will be put to test. The sad thing about that!!!!!!!! The beginning of the final prophesies in the bible begun in 1942-1945. And it wasn't brought about by no war.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

I think the above text, accurately answers the question.

What is the bible


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## SLANTED (Dec 7, 2003)

> Science has now developed a universal string theory. This is almost unconceivable. It is based off frequencies harmoniously resonating in 11 dimensional space. The irony in the string theory&#8230;. It is mathematically explained with Hebrew lettering in the bible.


I'm not quite sure where you are getting this from. Maybe we're talking about a different string theory? I have studied string theory and it is based on the notion of points in space actually being line extensions in space. This was developed in the 1970's to deal with zero discontinuity points.


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> nitrofish said:
> 
> 
> > if you don't want to beliive in god thats fine, ill have more room for my house in the afterlife.
> ...


 theres no cops in my heaven


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

SLANTED said:


> > Science has now developed a universal string theory. This is almost unconceivable. It is based off frequencies harmoniously resonating in 11 dimensional space. The irony in the string theory&#8230;. It is mathematically explained with Hebrew lettering in the bible.
> 
> 
> I'm not quite sure where you are getting this from. Maybe we're talking about a different string theory? I have studied string theory and it is based on the notion of points in space actually being line extensions in space. This was developed in the 1970's to deal with zero discontinuity points.


 I apologize. It has been a few years since I had physics @ the college level.. I was talking along the lines of the superstring theory. It started formulating in 1995. Here is a link.

11 dimesnional string resonation

The article is kinda deep. I can search for more, and IM you is you are curious about this superstring theory. It is fascinating.

Buy you are correct. The string theory only delves into a possibly 9 dimensional space.


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## SLANTED (Dec 7, 2003)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> SLANTED said:
> 
> 
> > > Science has now developed a universal string theory. This is almost unconceivable. It is based off frequencies harmoniously resonating in 11 dimensional space. The irony in the string theory&#8230;. It is mathematically explained with Hebrew lettering in the bible.
> ...


 No need to apologize. Just wanted to clarify. Super string theory is really a funny creature. Objectively, it really shouldn't be a valid area of study because of its wild assumptions and seemingly ad hoc notions but no one can dispute its results. It is proving things and taking science where it was once thought impossible. Cool to see someone else is a pure science fan.


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## AquaticPreditor (Mar 30, 2004)

That link was fascinating. Science and the bible agreeing mathematically is a wonderful concept. But what about the people who dis-belive the math???

Guess it's like the bible and left to the scholars.

I guess all matter being composed of frequencies, can lead a person looking for answers elsewere

he he he


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

SLANTED said:


> SLANTED said:
> 
> 
> > > No need to apologize. Just wanted to clarify. Super string theory is really a funny creature. Objectively, it really shouldn't be a valid area of study because of its wild assumptions and seemingly ad hoc notions but no one can dispute its results. It is proving things and taking science where it was once thought impossible. Cool to see someone else is a pure science fan.
> ...


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## rdang (Mar 27, 2004)

i love to read numbers again and again!


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## channafreak (Mar 27, 2004)

Id read the bible again if rdang's avitar was on the front cover.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Bullsnake said:


> I think it's hard to deny that the world changed for the better when the Jews began practicing ethical monotheism, -the belief that there is one God whose primary demand of people is that they act decently toward one another.


As opposed to what? Hethenistic polytheism? C'mon...there are pleny of people around today, myself included, that practice the Old Religion, and one of the main teachings is that we should have morals, develop a concept of right and wrong, and above all, do no harm. As far as being polytheistic, one can claim that the Catholics, being a form of Christianity, are also polytheistic. They believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being separate manifestations of their God. Well my friends, that's a form of polytheism. That's also the way I look at it. I believe in a single supreme being (male and female as one, like a yin and yang) that sometimes comes forth in separate manifestations. That is polytheism, not the only type though.

I've said this many times...I was raised a devout Christian. I used to think the same was as many on here have expressed. Then I began to ask questions, and was shot down for asking them. I could never get the answers I seeked and was spin doctored around. Why? Because they hit too close to home and would prove that no one religion is the right one. Most religions are so related that it's not even funny. Christianity has hardcore roots in the traditional Old Relgion. Just remember that when you're giving your kids that chocolate Easter bunny and painting eggs next week. Maybe you're even making some hot cross buns. Just remember that they are all traditional "Pagan" practices in the festival of Eostre, traditional Easter, which was named after the Anglo-Saxon goddess Eostre, who's guardian animal was the hare. It is a festival that celebrates the _rebirth_ of life and the coming of spring. See any parallels there? I won't even delve into Christmas, Halloween, May Day, Candelmas, and St. Birgit's Day. LOL.

I have no problems with people that want to express themselves as Christians. Fine, do as you will. But I do have a problem when I see people making stupid assumptions about other religions. Christianity has borrowed so much stuff from other religions that it has absolutely no right to talk down about them. It's like talking down about yourself. Look at it this way...humanity has been around for a hell of a lot longer than Christians have. Do you think all those people went to hell just because they didn't have the "one true religion"? I think not.

The thing is that anyone can write a book or article. Anyone that's decent at debate can make their point of view look right. I've read articles that make "Paganism" seem like we're all crazy hippies that worship the devil...which is obviously not true because we don't believe in that Judeo-Christian manifestation to begin with. I've also read articles on the opposite end of the spectrum that made the Christian argument look so pigeon-holed it could never stand on its own. Just think before you take something to heart next time. Find out for yourself. Don't let someone else tell you what's right or wrong. Go with your heart. Find your own path. It took me 22 years of searching to find that out. I knew I was a follower of the Old Religion before I even knew what that meant. One day I picked up a book in the metaphysical section and finally knew what to call myself.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

nitrofish said:


> Ms_Nattereri said:
> 
> 
> > nitrofish said:
> ...


 Ill tell our Father


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

Well i for one beleive in Jehova(or God or the father whatever YOU want to call him) and the Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit, but not as the manistefation of god no, Jehova God is the Supreme being.

oh yes and speaking of pagen festivals and ect. Christmas or Xmas is a totally pagen festival. some wanna call it a christian holiday, hardly, part of the Christmas traditions come from old Norse culture, the christmas tree has its roots there from in times past in the age of the vikings they hung sacrifices there, Horses and other animals and even other Human's


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## t_h_e_s_a_c_k (Nov 16, 2003)

dracofish said:


> Look at it this way...humanity has been around for a hell of a lot longer than Christians have.


 If God made humans, how can humanity have been before christianity?


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

well christians were jesus followers. thats what in essence christians today are supposed to be, the Isrealites didnt have a religion as we know religions today, because Moses was the 1st person to start writing what became the Bible. the Bible is in fact a compilation of records and prophecy's and letters written over time.

but the ancient nation of Israel were given laws not only the 10 commandments but also laws about Hygiene and sacrifices and such. as well that Moses wrote down past events told to him by god such as the Creation of the universe.


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## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

WilliamBradley said:


> bobme said:
> 
> 
> > I am not a real person to stand up for the bible, or say whats right and worng in what people beleave in however i do belive this.
> ...










No matter how hot you are I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

If religion seems like such a waste how come it's been around since the dawn of man, just in different variations. You're italian, right? Well to the ancient Romans their lives was religion then the empire. Rome was so strong because they were so deeply rooted in something they believed and that they were united in their belief. Egypt too and as well as China and Feudal Japan.

If you ask me it's not what you believe in, it's just the fact that you believe in something.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

t_h_e_s_a_c_k said:


> dracofish said:
> 
> 
> > Look at it this way...humanity has been around for a hell of a lot longer than Christians have.
> ...


 That seems like a fairly ignorant statement. Jesus wasn't even a Christian...He was a Jew, and so were most of his followers that were to become the first Christians.

As for humanity being around before even the first Jews...well, look at the ancient Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Minoans, Mongols, Chinese, Japanese, Anglo-Saxons, Celts, Vikings, Mayans, and Aztecs...and that's only touching upon a few.

Believe me...the world did exist before the "one true relgion" came along...


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Markosaur said:


> Christmas or Xmas is a totally pagen festival. some wanna call it a christian holiday, hardly, part of the Christmas traditions come from old Norse culture, the christmas tree has its roots there from in times past in the age of the vikings they hung sacrifices there, Horses and other animals and even other Human's


I'd have to say that most of the traditional Christmas practices that we know came from the Celts. It is traditionally a celebration of the Winter Solstice, when the sun is "reborn." It's a time when the dark is yet again replaced by the light. Almost all ancient cultures had rituals to welcome back the sun, but not many are as well known as the that of the Celts.

Sometime around the fourth century C.E. the Church of Rome replaced the traditional festival celebrating the birth of the sun, with the birth of the Christian Son. Since the actual birthdate of Christ has never been determined, it was a convenient place to put it.

Here's a passage from the book "Kindling the Celtic Spirit" by Mara Freeman:
_In the eighth century the traditional twelve-day pagan festival was declared a sacred season by the Church, and it became the Twelve Days of Christmas, with peaks at Dec. 25, Jan. 1, and Jan. 6..."_

In Scotland the festival remained more traditional and kept the name "Yule." The Twelve Days of Christmas were called the "daft days." Giftgiving during the season was very important.

Other things that may seem familiar around the season today that have "hethenistic pagan" roots are the Yule Log, Yule Candles, holly, evergreen trees in the home, plum pudding, and, of course, mistletoe.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

t_h_e_s_a_c_k said:


> dracofish said:
> 
> 
> > Look at it this way...humanity has been around for a hell of a lot longer than Christians have.
> ...


 God made man in the beginning and they were completly free of sin and at peace with God. The fall of Adam soiled the bloodline of all humans. Adams bloodline is destined to die and be forever seperated from the father. From then out humans owed God a penance for this indiscretion only to be paid for in death. Since all humans were in fact "dead" and seperated from their creator, God sent his only son, Jesus Christ, whom was the only person to live a perfect life and be at one with God to die on the cross (physically and spiritually). He was raised from the dead 3 days later to prove to the world he was the Messiah. When you believe in Him, that JC paid the penance for all mankinds sins, you pass from the bloodline of Adam to the bloodline of Jesus, from death to life, from hell to heaven.









Thats how I understand it anyway....


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

THe Bible is a book of here say.
the old testament is really good, but the new is stories about Christ after he ascended.
Thatt Book is not the True Bible in its purist form.
Jesus Christ (Peace Be upon him) never walked the earth holding the BIBLE.
IF he did, i would be a christian or i would look at that relegion differently.
People have been adding and subtracting things out there for Many, Many, Many years.
THe leaders at there times would take things out when the wanted too, so people would fear them more then God himself (dieghty). So by taking things out and adding things in they control the people easier.
That BiBle most of the christians hold is the same Bible the KKK use too or still read.
I cant put all my faith in relegion that has so many holes in it.
In the Bible it talks about Whores, ****, Incest, Eating piss and sh*t cakes what the hell is that.
Thats supposed to be a book From God.
NOPE
Reading a book like that will turn you bad.
keep reading about whores, Incest what are you going to think.
Where did the holy Trinity come from. Its not in the Bible. Its man made by 3 Catholic Bishops of old.
THe Father the son and the holy spirirt is one.
What the hell is that?????
Holla Back at your boy....


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

I think its Peter Or Paul the Apostles, who wrote that he didnt see jesus come out the tomb.
If you look at the New testament in every book it says according to the Apostle Paul or according to Mathew or according to Luke.
THats all here say.
If Jesus died for our sins why is there still sin
If i sin today and dont repent on judgement Jesus wont help me.
In the Bible it says all God fearing man is the son of GOd.
John the Baptist was the son of God. Its in your bible.
All the prophets came to earth with the same one message Believe in one God and only one god. Its been happening since how Effen Long.
Here comes Jesus saying all that is false i dont believe that.

I Just want to put my faith in the wirte spot with no string attached no wholes..

Thats my understanding of it....


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Xenon said:


> t_h_e_s_a_c_k said:
> 
> 
> > dracofish said:
> ...


If God loved man so much that He wanted to save him by giving the life of his own Son, then why did He wait so long between the downfall of Adam and the birth of Christ?

I believe that there is no Original Sin. Though I feel that Jesus was a real person, I think that most of what the Bible says, including the ideas of Original Sin, Hell, and Satan, are meant to keep people in line. Christianity was a religion borne from persecution. The only way to make it survive and grow was to make people conform. What better way to do that than to make your people fear pretty much everything, especially freethinking?


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

the bible is a lovely book of genocide, incest, rape, and prejudice toward homosexuals and women with a loving god in support.


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

I beleive in Satan the devil, but not in hell, hey there isnt even any hell in the Bible, if hell is mentioned there then its been deliberatly put in there. Satan was responsible for bringing sin into the world.

And not forget Dracofish, that god is a immense being, so much powerfull than any of us. we cant even begin to comprehend is power. so we really dont have a right to ask questions like why he has waited so long. because he has his reasons.

@Go-rilla


> John the Baptist was the son of God. Its in your bible.


really? i must inform you that you are wrong.



> All the prophets came to earth with the same one message Believe in one God and only one god. Its been happening since how Effen Long.
> Here comes Jesus saying all that is false i dont believe that.


Now where in the world do you get that from? ive certanly never read that. and yes ive read the whole bible.



> In the Bible it talks about Whores, ****, Incest, Eating piss and sh*t cakes what the hell is that.
> Thats supposed to be a book From God.


What you are referring to are historical events recorded in the bible.
Rahab was a Prostitute. but she trusted in god when Jeriko's walls fell and her life was spared(and she stopped being a prostitute after that)


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

dracofish said:


> If God loved man so much that He wanted to save him by giving the life of his own Son, then why did He wait so long between the downfall of Adam and the birth of Christ?
> 
> I believe that there is no Original Sin. Though I feel that Jesus was a real person, I think that most of what the Bible says, including the ideas of Original Sin, Hell, and Satan, are meant to keep people in line. Christianity was a religion borne from persecution. The only way to make it survive and grow was to make people conform. What better way to do that than to make your people fear pretty much everything, especially freethinking?


 All I can say is that God works on his own timetables, not ours. I think Christianity was a religion borne from the deliverance of the Christ.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Go-rilla said:


> I think its Peter Or Paul the Apostles, who wrote that he didnt see jesus come out the tomb.
> If you look at the New testament in every book it says according to the Apostle Paul or according to Mathew or according to Luke.
> THats all here say.
> If Jesus died for our sins why is there still sin
> ...


 Refer to my listing on the authors of the New Testament. Its not "hearsay" if half the authors are apostles, primary sources THAT WERE THERE!



> If Jesus died for our sins why is there still sin


Because Satan still exists in a real way. There will always be sin, the difference is through JC you can be reunited with God.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Markosaur said:


> we cant even begin to comprehend is power. so we really dont have a right to ask questions like why he has waited so long. because he has his reasons.


You believe that about your God, not me about mine...mine welcomes questions and freethinking. In fact, one of the defining characteristics of the Old Religion is being able to question everything and finding your own path.

As far as Christianity goes, I stopped asking questions because I would never get any answers. I was always told that we aren't supposed to question "God's will." Sorry, I can't sit by the wayside and let someone else tell me why things are the way the are, when they really have no clue. So, one day I decided to answer my own questions and I didn't like what I saw. In result, I found a belief system that fits me.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

dracofish said:


> You believe that about your God, not me about mine...mine welcomes questions and freethinking. In fact, one of the defining characteristics of the Old Religion is being able to question everything and finding your own path.
> 
> As far as Christianity goes, I stopped asking questions because I would never get any answers. I was always told that we aren't supposed to question "God's will." Sorry, I can't sit by the wayside and let someone else tell me why things are the way the are, when they really have no clue. So, one day I decided to answer my own questions and I didn't like what I saw. In result, I found a belief system that fits me.


 I am not saying this to persecute your beliefs, but unfortunatly I feel your belief system will lead you to Hell.


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## ViBE (Jul 22, 2003)

I'll tell you what.

None of y'all can prove your god's existance.

One of the main reason I decided not to have a religion.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> Refer to my listing on the authors of the New Testament. Its not "hearsay" if half the authors are apostles, primary sources THAT WERE THERE!


the funny thing is that these apostles for the christian faith cant even get their story straight......the entire NT is plagued with inconsistencies.

http://home.inu.net/skeptic/

BTW, what 4 people say that they "saw" over a thousand years ago may be enough evidence for YOU, but it is laughable to people like myself.

you think that ALL religions dont make the same claims based upon the oral tradition of a few?

----

bottom of the line is whether you ignore it or not, the christian religion is founded upon the priciples of ethnic cleansing and violent pacification to achieve its goals.

so, even if i WERE to entertain the silly notions of a virgin birth, invisible friends, satan, and the like i would still NEVER support the christian faith.

i could go on and on listing god demanding the death of the israelite enemies but whats the point? these threads never go anywhere anyway.....

some of you are so lost in dogmatic, biblical arcane that you refuse to entertain any non-christian ideas anyway.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Xenon said:


> I am not saying this to persecute your beliefs, but unfortunatly I feel your belief system will lead you to Hell.


Well, at least I'll have lived life instead of walked through it like a programmed drone...I don't beleive in Hell anyways, so it doesn't really matter to me what you think. Hell is just another Christian fabrication meant to keep people like what they are...sheep.

Honestly, what point is there in living life in preparation for the afterlife? It seems pretty pointless to me, and any God that would do that to His people seems pretty awful. Life should be a celebration in living...in enjoying not only the trials and tribulations, but also the love, happiness, and earth. And no, I don't believe life is meant only to gratify oneself. I believe in having a value system...but one governed by the individual, not a church that only wants my money.

Christianity was a tool to keep kings in power and to make people conform. It spread like a disease through the land because it sucked up and stole the very religions it seeked to destroy and claim them as it's own (remember that at Easter, and certainly remember that this Christmas). That is why it is so successful. Making a rule to not question and put faith into what cannot be seen or touched is an excellent way of making people stay in the "flock" and not form their own beliefs. Can you say "Baaaaaaa."


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Puma said:


> so, even if i WERE to entertain the silly notions of a virgin birth, invisible friends, satan, and the like i would still NEVER support the christian faith.


Though I do agree with most of what you said, I would just like to add that Christianity is not the only, nor the first, belief system to have myths of virgin births, deaths of martyrs, or resurrections of the dead.

Like I said before...it only seeks to destroy other religions by sucking them up and claiming them as it's own.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

dracofish said:


> Xenon said:
> 
> 
> > I am not saying this to persecute your beliefs, but unfortunatly I feel your belief system will lead you to Hell.
> ...


 Gladly, Baaaaaaa.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

-Voltaire

have fun as a robot.


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

dracofish said:


> Well, at least I'll have lived life instead of walked through it like a programmed drone...I don't beleive in Hell anyways, so it doesn't really matter to me what you think. Hell is just another Christian fabrication meant to keep people like what they are...sheep.
> 
> Honestly, what point is there in living life in preparation for the afterlife? It seems pretty pointless to me, and any God that would do that to His people seems pretty awful. Life should be a celebration in living...in enjoying not only the trials and tribulations, but also the love, happiness, and earth. And no, I don't believe life is meant only to gratify oneself. I believe in having a value system...but one governed by the individual, not a church that only wants my money.
> 
> Christianity was a tool to keep kings in power and to make people conform. It spread like a disease through the land because it sucked up and stole the very religions it seeked to destroy and claim them as it's own (remember that at Easter, and certainly remember that this Christmas). That is why it is so successful. Making a rule to not question and put faith into what cannot be seen or touched is an excellent way of making people stay in the "flock" and not form their own beliefs. Can you say "Baaaaaaa."










What she said


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Puma said:


> Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
> 
> -Voltaire
> 
> have fun as a robot.


 luckily Voltaire is not the Messiah....he is a man, flawed like the rest.

I will enjoy life as a robot. Thanks for the best wishes


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> he is a man, flawed like the rest.


dogma, i as well as many others dont believe in original sin. personally, i think that christians have a strange kind of taboo and enjoy the "naughty" idea of having to repent for being human.

yahweh is flawed, he flunked "earth creation and perspectives" 101 and had to flood the place dude, under the clever guise of "free will"


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Puma said:


> > he is a man, flawed like the rest.
> 
> 
> dogma, i as well as many others dont believe in original sin. personally, i think that christians have a strange kind of taboo and enjoy the "naughty" idea of having to repent for being human.
> ...


 I only believe in original sin because I see it and feel it everyday, not because someone told me about it.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Xenon said:


> I only believe in original sin because I see it and feel it everyday, not because someone told me about it.


Explain...

You mean by all the "pain and suffering?" Here is an exerpt from the book "Pagans and Christians: The Personal Spritual Experience" by Gus DiZerega, Ph.D:
_
I have encountered searching criticisms from Christians as to whether the Wiccan approach to spirituality can handle the problem of evil. Our relgion celebrates and honors all basic dimensions of existance. Some Christians ask whether in doing so we demonstrate a naive or even willful blindness to human suffering. Some Christians argue that if our Goddess is truly the Goddess of this world, then the suffering and evil we wxperience are Her creation. Therefore, far from being devoted to Her, we should reject Her in every respect.

From a Christian perspective this criticism rebuts itself. The Biblical God explicity takes credit for creating evil. Amos 3:6 asks rhetorically, "shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?" Yet Christians do not abandon their faith because of this admission. By reminding them that their own God asmits He created evil, this Biblical passage should alert Christians to the possiblity that evil may prove more paradoxical than first meets the literal eye.

Other Christians have argued that our denying Satan's existance points to our spiritual simple-mindedness. We are describing the world as if the Fall never took place, blinding ourselves to the hellish conditions that afflict so many people on this earth, and to the evil that people do to one another. This criticism deserves a reply.

Christian critics are correct in pointing out that we Wiccans do not focus much on evil. We do not regard this lack of emphasis as a failing. Our understanding is simply different, and our view of evil's role agrees with that of Pagan spirituality more broadly concieved.

We can begin to grasp a Pagan perspective by considering how many people in ancient Greece thought about the matter. In describing the Greek tragedians' view of the relationship of the world and the Divine, Classical scholar A. H. Armstrong wrote:

"the [general] perception of human life [was] in terms of the rhythm
of the natural world, the rhythm of day and night and the seasons and
birth and eath, the rhythm of and endless dance rather than a march 
to a goal. This is neither an "optimistic" nor a "pessimistic" way of 
looking at life. It does not issue an absolute hope or despair, because
one can always look at it either way up...."

This paragraph could have been written as a description of many contemporary Wiccans' views on the matter. The world is not heading toward a la-la land of earthly delights, certainly not in the forseeable future, but neither is it a fallen place. We do see beauty and folly, wisdom and suffering, life and death, acceptance and transcendance--and, in our clearer, stronger moments, accept all, embrace all, as ultimately good, no matter how well disguised. Like all people, sometimes our confidence weakens, and we feel beaten down by adversity. Even so, we see no fallness here.

If our world is a manifestation of the Sacred, why does it contain so much suffering? And why does so much of this suffering seem gratuituous? Any possible answer takes us deep into core issues concerning the nature of spritual reality.

In my view, a wide variety of fundamentally distinct things and events are too frequently lumped together as "evil." If the world is an artifact, produced by a master potter, then it may make sense to combine all sources of suffering into a single category. Presumably the pot, flaws and all, is a testimony to the skill of the potter. Such an approach is alien to a Pagan perspective that delights in and is opent to the world's diversity as well as it's goodness. For us, the indiscriminate amalgamation into a single category of everthing we don't like, from tornadoes to cancer to serial killers, hampers our capacity to come to terms with them.

The evils we encounter in life can be divided into three broad, and very different, groups: (1) suffereing that is the natural result of embodied existence, (2) accidental suffering that is the result of unintended human actions, and (3) deliberately inflicted suffering, both human and spiritually caused...We are limited beings, and any human answer to the deepest issues of human life must be tentative and provisional. I do claim that it is at least as reasonable as any Chrisitian alternative.

In the Christian perspective, death is usually regarded as a divine punishment resulting from human sin. Even those of us who do not judge death this way deeply mourn the passsing of our loved ones. Nor, as a rule, do we seek swiftly to follow them. Disease, drought, earthquakes, floods, the pain and decrepitude arising from our aging, and more, all add to the roster of natural causes of human suffering. Such experiences lead us to ask whether a world with such events is in fact a truly good place.

From the point of view of many Christians these events are the result of human or demonic agency upsetting a previously perfect world. Some have even told me, based on their reading of the Bible, that before the Fall there were no carnivores nor were there storms or earthquakes. Animals were vegetarians and heavy dew watered the earth. After all, storms and carnivores frequently caused death, often to the innnocent. If the world was made by a perfect potter, these sources of misfortune can have no truly acceptable place. They are a sign that something is amiss. _

I HIGHLY recommend this book to anyone that may be questioning or want to question Christianity. It does not seek to bash any religion, but only seeks to serve as a textual defense in the eyes of those that seek to persecute Paganism. The author of the book is not only well versed in Wiccan and Pagan understanding alike, but is also very well versed in Christian dogma and the Bible. Throughout the book, he is constantly quoting from the Christians' most beloved book. It's a definate must-read...

Note: I actually sat there and typed that out from the book, so if I spelled anything wrong and haven't caught it, cut me some slack. Also, I didn't quite cover the two other types of suffering. If you would like me to go into more detail, I will at a later time...my fingers hurt. Either that or get the book...you should!


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

no carnivores? thats absurd lol, the dinosaurs like T-rex and Utharptor and Velociraptor shure were carnivores. and also a carnivore dosent necissarily have to kill, it can scavenge as well(if you dont want to beleive some animals killed other). and being a Carnivore means that it eats flesh, meat, it dosent mean it has to hunt.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

I am truly amazed at the amount of ignorance floating around here. That is not meant as an insult, but it is true. There are all kinds of comments being made that have absolutely no foundation in truth. It is like a bad game of "telephone"...by the time some of you have gotten the "fact" you have it all jumbled up.

Comments like "You can't prove that there is a God" - Well...um...you can't prove that there isn't a God! That is an absolute ignorant comment that has no foundation in anything other than opinion.

Comments like "Why did God wait so long to send Jesus to die on the cross?"...now this is actually a wonderful question! The answer...because nothing else worked. God put Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, and they screwed up the realtionship with God through sin...God tried to re-establish it with his covenant with Israel...and they screwed it up...God tried to re-establish it through the Sons of Aaron (the beginning of the Preisthood) and they screwed it up.

You can see time and time again where God tried to right the relationship with His people and the people kept screwing it up. So he did one last act and that was to send Jesus to die on the cross. The choice is up to the people...they are told what they need to do (via the Bible) and the rest is up to them (I am waaaaaay over simplifying this). This was God's final act to bring his people to right relationship to Him.

Then someone states that we are all robots...good God. I cannot believe this one (from my friend Puma...we have talked, he knows that he and I are o.k.). If this were the case, I would have nothing to do with Christianity. That is not how it works. IF God has truly made us to be robots, you would not have been able to make that statement...period.

If we were made to be robots, we would not be having this conversation...period.

If we were made to be robots, we would not have self-awareness...period.

If we were made to be robots, we would not have art (a form of emotion expression...you can't express something that is dictated to you).

If we were made to be robots, we would not have love and hate, good and bad, likes and dislikes. There would be no need for opposites when all is dicated to us.

If we were made to be robots, we would not have self identity. Why create self identity when you are only going to become what you were assigned to become?

If we were made to be robots, we would not have the need for anyone...period. That is what the angelic realm is for.

If you have a question regarding Christianity...a serious one...post it and I will find the answer for you.

Again, this is not meant as a flame, but a part of the conversation.

Jeffrey

Xenon - Way to go...again you impress me!


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

PastorJeff said:


> If you have a question regarding Christianity...a serious one...post it and I will find the answer for you.


 what happened to Confucius and Plato and the rest of earth's B.C.E. non-jewish human population when they died?


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## con man (Mar 7, 2004)

the tora is an entirely diff religion

and in my opinion theres way to many loopholes in the bible for it to be more than 75% true

i believe the church/bible has always been corrupt and walways will be no matter wat the chuirch says

the church doesnt alow female priests yet jesus told the apostles to look at everyone the same tahts y i say he was a girl or he had girl apostles

if anything he accepted religous women

the biible is bullshit and u cant possibly say that the bible is 100 % true cuz the entire religion is based upon faith (the belief there was/is a god) theres no1 who is alive from backj then so i personally cant believce it without proof of a non-lieing truthful person


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Well, I have to disagree in the fact that I have seen many Christians drone on and on with the same things and still refuse to even consider what someone else has to say. They claim that they shouldn't question...well, to me, not being able to question is like being a robot. A robot has one basic function...to do what it's told and to obey without question. That's what I see in a lot of Christians.


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## channafreak (Mar 27, 2004)

I got a question for you pastorjeff.....
Im a buddhist. Am I on the wrong path. If so what happens to me after I die.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Markosaur said:


> no carnivores? thats absurd lol, the dinosaurs like T-rex and Utharptor and Velociraptor shure were carnivores. and also a carnivore dosent necissarily have to kill, it can scavenge as well(if you dont want to beleive some animals killed other). and being a Carnivore means that it eats flesh, meat, it dosent mean it has to hunt.


 I actually know quite a few Christians that believe in the whole nonexistance of carnivores thing...they feel that everything was all la-di-da back in the days of Eden. Nobody died, nobody got sick, and nobody had to kill for food.

Those very same people also believe that the dinosours didn't even exist. They claim that not only is the earth not old enough, but that the bones are fabrications. Some people truly amaze me...


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

channafreak said:


> I got a question for you pastorjeff.....
> Im a buddhist. Am I on the wrong path. If so what happens to me after I die.


 Well obviously he's going to say that you are going to Hell if you do not repent your sins and come to the "one true religion" by bringing Jesus into your heart.


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## channafreak (Mar 27, 2004)

dracofish said:


> channafreak said:
> 
> 
> > I got a question for you pastorjeff.....
> ...


 yea I want to know what his opinion is.
Btw I draco, I admire the way you have both a well structured beleif system and at the same time have a huge amount of your own emotional beleifs tied up in that system. It shows that you are open to others ideas and choose to follow your own heart to find salvation.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

channafreak said:


> Btw I draco, I admire the way you have both a well structured beleif system and at the same time have a huge amount of your own emotional beleifs tied up in that system. It shows that you are open to others ideas and choose to follow your own heart to find salvation.


Yeah, I'd have to say that it's brought on by thinking too much. Once I started to see the first inconsistencies with Christianity (as I said before, I was raised as a devout Christian), the wheels in my head started turning and won't stop until they have gotten all the answers they need, which I'm sure won't be in this lifetime. I devour any information on alternative religions I can get.

Many are happy with overlooking those inconsistencies...probably because they don't want to think about it or are too afraid to. It's really easy to take whatever someone wants to feed to you as gospel when you are too afraid to think otherwise. By choosing to do what I wasn't supposed to do (question), I lost all my supposed "friends," the people I used to hang with in my Bible study group, and many of my family members that are devout Christians. The only people that I am still on good terms with are my parents, and they're on a "we won't ask and you won't tell" basis...meaning that they don't want to know yet they still love me because I'm still they're daughter.

I will say, however, that I do not regret the choices that I have made. In finding my own path I have become more of a person. I finally feel whole. Back when I considered myself a Christian I always had these doubts...but I would force them to the back of my mind because I was too afraid of what addressing those doubts would mean. Finally, one day those doubts came rearing forward. Basically, I've always had a special connection with nature. It's really tough to describe so it'll probably sound weird. One day I was walking through the woods and this feeling came upon me, something so strong and personal, that it basically knocked me on my ass. This passage by Gus DiZerega sums it up perfectly: "...I was suddenly enveloped in a presence of incredible power, beauty, and love. While nothing was visible to my eyes, the closeness of that presence was palpable. There was a sense of nature, of forests and streams and meadows. At the same time, there was a pervading sense of beauty beyond words, power beyond imagining, and love beyond conception." One thing I can tell you is that this feeling was a contact with the Divine, and it certainly was not of the Christian variety. I had no choice but to address those doubts that had always lingered in the back of my mind. That meant leaving the Church forever.


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## Piromaniac (Mar 20, 2004)

I REALLY hesitate to get in on this discussion because I don't like for anyone to push thier beliefs on me and I don't want to push mine on anyone. That being said, All my life I have wondered about religion, the Bible, and the age old question, "Why are we here?" I have recently started reading books by the aurthor Zecharia Sitchin. For all those of you who question the validity of the Bible his books are worth looking at. He has a VERY interesting theory on the bible and backs it up by FACTS!! I am one of those "lost souls" that has to have facts before I buy into soemthing and Sitchin makes a very good aurgument.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Piromaniac said:


> I have recently started reading books by the aurthor Zecharia Sitchin. For all those of you who question the validity of the Bible his books are worth looking at. He has a VERY interesting theory on the bible and backs it up by FACTS!! I am one of those "lost souls" that has to have facts before I buy into soemthing and Sitchin makes a very good aurgument.


 I'll definately have to check that out. DiZerega is also similiar in that he proves his arguments with facts...straight from the Bible.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> I'll definately have to check that out. DiZerega is also similiar in that he proves his arguments with facts...straight from the Bible.


the problem with this, is that people like myself feel that the bible is of questionable (at least) historical accuracy down to the very fiber or the book.

in addition to some VERY questionable historical accuracy, the bible makes so very interesting claims about the nature of physics, geology, biology, and just about every other science out there.......thousands of which have been turned over and disproven by the scientific community again and again.

for example, if you support the christian faith do you believe that jesus was born of a virgin with NO act of copulation? if so, you clearly take this as an act of "faith" and not a "biologically accurate" form of reproduction, since we now understand what it is that is involved with sexual reproduction in animals.

do you believe that a man (jesus) actually "cured" people of disease without any background in medicine nor the use of modern machines (or by ANY means other than just waving his hand over them) ? once again, this requires a "faith" stance, since any logical, ration thinking 10 year old realizes that this is an absurdity.

to find answers to life questions by saying "the bible says so right here in matthew, job, etc. etc......" or that "god did it, so stop asking questions" or "put your faith in god instead of analzing everything" are NOT acceptable answers for people like me.

science deals with forming ideas about the natural world and its function, testing of those ideas, and forming conclusions based upon the testing. you simply cannot call yourself a good scientist whilst taking biblical ideas as "true" when there is NO real evidence to support.........BTW- heresay, conjecture, and the bible itself are NOT tested using the scientific method (and when they are they crumble in seconds) and hence are NOT true forms of evidence.

most of the books you are talking about imploy the use of anecdotal evidence and circular reasoning, and hence are nothing more than fiction books....obviously that doesnt mean that they are not interesting or worth reading, i am just trying to make the point that you can find a buddhist, or hindu, or jewish book to make the same claims using "facts" .....when over 80% of the country you live in is christian, there is often the idea that other equally viable reigions do not exist....


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## Piromaniac (Mar 20, 2004)

The first two paragraphs are a quote from PUMA:


> the problem with this, is that people like myself feel that the bible is of questionable (at least) historical accuracy down to the very fiber or the book.
> 
> in addition to some VERY questionable historical accuracy, the bible makes so very interesting claims about the nature of physics, geology, biology, and just about every other science out there.......thousands of which have been turned over and disproven by the scientific community again and again.
> 
> Puma- I too feel that the Bible is of questionble accuracy. Sitchin addresses the majority of the claims that the Bible makes. Sitchin states that the Bible has been translated incorrectly through the years and he backs up his theory with scientific evidence. Once again, I do not wish to push my beliefs on anyone. I am just saying to those that have the questions that I did, take a look at Sitchin's work and decide for yourself. His theory is very convincing


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

Dear : Markosaur

Here are a few scriptures for you. I tried to show you different scriptures in different books
where it shows you Jesus (pbuh) is Not God and not the Only Begotten Son.

Only Begotten Son?

Before jesus is Born God talks to David (pbuh) His Begotten son?
Psalm 2:7
Mathew 5:45,48
II Coronthians 6:18
Adam son of God Hebrews 7:3
Luke 7:16
Luke 24:19
Acts 9:20
Mathew 11:11

IF Jesus (pbuh) was God?

Old Testament

1 Deuteronomy 4:35
1 Deuteronomy 4:39
1 Deuteronomy 6:4
Isaiah 43:10-11
"" 44:6
"" 45:18
Exodus 8:10
II Samuel 7;22
I kings 8:23
1 Chronicles 17:20
Psalms 86:8, 89:6 and 113:5
Hosea 13:4
Zechariah 14:9
Exodus 4:22
Jesus said (pbuh) he is son of man NOT GOD
Luke $:41, 9:20-21
John 3:2, 6:14, 7:40
Mathew 21:11

Let me know what you think?
Words that I live By

"Life is TOOOOOOOOOOOO SHORT"
Imagine for a sec........ 
The Earth was Crerated Big Bang Theory
Which god said Be and it was.
All that time till now. 
Many souls even more years, creatures big and tall.
We live to a Hundred years. 
Thats nothing enjoy one another in Peace.
Be amazed at Gods Creations and Fear God. 
Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave.
And you will be aight.
Peace


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

Draco Good statement!!!!








Before Christianity there was a God.
People think that everybody before Jesus Christ (pbuh) is gone to hell
No
Its the same God since atom till Now........
Its people who screws everything up.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Well I feel compelled to share something from the bible with you. In the book of *Samuel I. Chapter 28 verse 3-21.* There is called out the old religions. I am assuming these are the religions Dracofish are talking about. Well I will give a description, and you can read to verify.

Samuel was dead and buried. Saul desired to communicate with Samuel, and requested a witch. <*Or should a say woman with familiar spirits*> they found her. Emphasis on it was a *woman.* And she brought Samuel back from the dead for a brief conversation.

Perhaps these things should be talked about in the religious places you go. "Christ was not the only one who raised or communicated with the dead." Such work was just classified as wrong. I don't believe it is wrong. There are just some dangers, many people aren't prepared to deal with. If it were truly wrong, why would Samuel utilize a witch? The soul purpose of the devil, lucifer, beelzebub, asmodeus...ect... are to decieve the entire world. It's easily to be fooled thus damned by higher intelligences <evil spirits>

*Christ*ianity is a word associate with the concept of Christ. But the so called old religions are called out time and time again in the bible. The god of the bible apparently is the oldest worshiped god. Use carbon dating to verify.

Another parable, not truly understood by many.

Moses went returned to Egypt to free the Hebrew. The Pharaoh laughed. Moses threw his staff on the ground and it was transmuted into a snake, or serpent. This was nothing new to the Egyptians. They quickly got their high priests and threw multiple sticks down creating multiple snakes. Moses snake ate theirs. Deep symbolism their. The only snake that truly eats another snake is a king snake. Symbolism there. "*Moses god is king of the gods*"

I like you Dracofish, and wouldn't dare tell another person how to live their life. Or, violate their freedom of expression and religion. Just use

*Caution.*


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> The god of the bible apparently is the oldest worshiped god. Use carbon dating to verify.


100% untrue. there are religions that have existed thousands of years prior to someone dreaming up christianity. christianity, as is mentioned earlier by dracofish i believe, takes many of its own ideas from other religions like judaism and the ancient celtic religions.

BTW- carbon-14 dating works using the assumption that the half-life of certain radioactive substances decaying at a constant rate have and always will decay at that rate. hence, if you know the ratio or parent-to-daughter material and the actual substance you are looking at, you can get a pretty good idea of how old the rock (or whatever you are looking at) is. in no way can carbon-14 dating test the existence of a god.

also, the fact that the bible "mentions" other religions in no way verifies that the christian god was the first to be worshipped.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Puma said:


> > The god of the bible apparently is the oldest worshiped god. Use carbon dating to verify.
> 
> 
> 100% untrue. there are religions that have existed thousands of years prior to someone dreaming up christianity. christianity, as is mentioned earlier by dracofish i believe, takes many of its own ideas from other religions like judaism and the ancient celtic religions.
> ...


 Could you please name one of these religions. I think you age confusing christianity with the entire bible. My passage was about god the father, not the son.

Christianity has the word christ in it. The depiction I gave from the bible is atleast 6000 years old.

But like I said. Name a religion, and I can find carbon dating sources online that predate your religion. This witch I talked about was far before Olympian gods, and hecate witches. Also pre-Sumaria. I won't doubt you untill you produce a religion, but I bet it's after babylon. Sumeria evolved into babylon. That's where some of the oldest religions come from. <Necronicon type stuff>

So do your research and be accurate. We are looking for a religion Prior to the existance of Sumeria. Then I will show you more about the worship of god the Father.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Error in my post. I can't edit.

Babylon evolved from Sumaria. There are very few civilization before that. Do you know the relegions the excisted in Mesopotamia????


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

I think you guys are misunderstanding me. DiZerega's purpose in using the Bible to prove his points is to disprove Christianity as being true. If the Bible is rendered false, then so is the basis of what Christianity stands for. Even so, he does not seek to bash Christians...he only seeks to basically shut them up with their criticisms of other faiths because theirs can be pigeon-holed just as well as any other...easier than some others in fact. DiZerega's book is certainly not a work of fiction. He is a Gardnerian Elder, so is certainly well versed enough in the world of "Paganism" to write a book about the basic beliefs and why they are the way they are. He breaks everything down to make it completely understandable to everyone. He then begins to make his argument to Christians, using it as a defense of one of the world's most persecuted belief systems.

Also, speaking of the workings of a "witch." That is simply an interpretation of the Bible. Who the hell knows what the original word was or what that original word even meant. People can interpret the Bible to mean whatever they want. If I want a cat to have eight legs, I can probably find "proof" of it if I look hard enough in the Bible. My point is that you have no way of proving that the "witch" the Bible makes mention of is the same thing as a traditional practioner of the Old Religion, especially of a tradition that I identify with...most of which are stemmed from the Celts. Serrasalmus Collector, you seem very much into the Occult. I, on the other hand, am not. You mention that "witch" bringing someone back from the dead. That is certainly no part of my religion so I don't even know why you compare the two together. I think you are slightly confused in your perception of who and what I am. There are many different traditions, or types, of "Paganism." Working with the Occult is one type, but not my type. If I were to stamp my beliefs out, then I'd have to say that I most identify with Wicca (which has roots in traditional Celtic beliefs)...though I do not worship the Goddess. I believe in a male and female duality. I also do not practice with magick.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

dracofish said:


> I think you guys are misunderstanding me. DiZerega's purpose in using the Bible to prove his points is to disprove Christianity as being true. If the Bible is rendered false, then so is the basis of what Christianity stands for. Even so, he does not seek to bash Christians...he only seeks to basically shut them up with their criticisms of other faiths because theirs can be pigeon-holed just as well as any other...easier than some others in fact. DiZerega's book is certainly not a work of fiction. He is a Gardnerian Elder, so is certainly well versed enough in the world of "Paganism" to write a book about the basic beliefs and why they are the way they are. He breaks everything down to make it completely understandable to everyone. He then begins to make his argument to Christians, using it as a defense of one of the world's most persecuted belief systems.
> 
> Also, speaking of the workings of a "witch." That is simply an interpretation of the Bible. Who the hell knows what the original word was or what that original word even meant. People can interpret the Bible to mean whatever they want. If I want a cat to have eight legs, I can probably find "proof" of it if I look hard enough in the Bible. My point is that you have no way of proving that the "witch" the Bible makes mention of is the same thing as a traditional practioner of the Old Religion, especially of a tradition that I identify with...most of which are stemmed from the Celts. Serrasalmus Collector, you seem very much into the Occult. I, on the other hand, am not. You mention that "witch" bringing someone back from the dead. That is certainly no part of my religion so I don't even know why you compare the two together. I think you are slightly confused in your perception of who and what I am. There are many different traditions, or types, of "Paganism." Working with the Occult is one type, but not my type. If I were to stamp my beliefs out, then I'd have to say that I most identify with Wicca (which has roots in traditional Celtic beliefs)...though I do not worship the Goddess. I believe in a male and female duality. I also do not practice with magick.


 I had not bash against you or you religion. You are correct, about me not knowing what your beliefs or practices are. I was just pointing out are passage from the bible that metioned other religions. The is some of the oldest scripts from the bible, and almost match the date, first man walked the planet.

My main argument was with Puma. Perhaps I misunderstood this entire post. But there is a vast amount if information in the bible. This information pre-dates Christ, therefore it predates christianity.

That is another reason christ came. It used to be Hebrew, and Gentiles. Choosen people and damned people. Chirst washed about the barrier, and allowed all races in.

I will patiently await him to produce a relegion older then the concept of Lilith, and Sumeria. There are tablets almost older than mankind. These tablets have her exalted as a goddess. She in in the Old Testiment. Since she is there, and chapters predate her, the bible must be an older religious book.

There is also the information about Solomon the king, Sumeria evolving into babylon, and the Goetia. The Goetia is the lesser Key of Solomon.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> That is another reason christ came. It used to be Hebrew, and Gentiles. Choosen people and damned people. Chirst washed about the barrier, and allowed all races in.


But what about the people that have never heard of Christ, the Hebrews, or the Bible? What of the Mayan and Aztecs? What about all the other civilizations that pre-date Christ that weren't from the area?

I also have a heard time swallowing the idea of the Old Testament starting with the first man walking on the planet as I am a hardcore believer in the evolution of man. The first man, to me, was around way before the Old Testament...WAY before...


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

dracofish said:


> serrasalmus_collector said:
> 
> 
> > That is another reason christ came. It used to be Hebrew, and Gentiles. Choosen people and damned people. Chirst washed about the barrier, and allowed all races in.
> ...


 I study the occult deeply, and am not a theologian. All I can give you is my idea and my interpretations.

It is called out in revelation, that all the truly wicked and evil ones will be destroyed. There are only a called out number of people immediately going to heaven. This number is given. That's were a lot of religions are wacked. Believe this and go to heaven. I don't think so. Only the closest to divine. Even Moses was not allowed into the Promised Land for 1 episode of anger.

But back to your question. After the truly wicked are destroyed and the divine take there place. The earth will be re built. Christ, will come and teach all. Everyone will meet him and learn his teachings, for 1000 years. Then he will leave, and the dragon will be unleashed. Once again man will be tempted, and those who fall prey to the nature of evil will perish. Afterwards the dragon will be cast in to the lake of fire too. It never says he will destroy or kill the devil. Just bind him. This so called devil is a form of energy, and we both know that it can never be destroyed. The wicked and the legions will have an eternal place to live. The earth housing that many people is a fascinating concept, but that is how I understand it.

But duality must excist. Not necessarily exists in the same space.

This gets off the topic of the bible...
But pick a deity that represents good. Try to do good, and understand the concepts of negative energy, and you will be fine in the end. If you choose to battle negativity, use protection. Love your neighbor, as you love yourself. You understand Yin & Yang, so know all you need to.

*Truly what happens in the end??? Know one knows* Faith in the bible, and it's belief system can offer comfort in old age and death. But what honestly happens. I don't know.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> But there is a vast amount if information in the bible. This information pre-dates Christ, therefore it predates christianity


this is a fallacy plain and simple. if *I* were to write a book about some savior, lets call him "Bob", and i write about some of his history including his father's creation episode, let us call him "Bob senior" who creates the planet and so forth......etc. etc. let us call the religion "farcity"

since i am writing information that predates "Bob" does that make my writing predate "farcity" ? hell no, i just made it up this very second.

the fact that the old testament makes a feeble and absurd attempt to tell the history of man through the eating of a piece of fruit that somehow conveys knowledge and the like, does NOT mean that the actual christian faith predates other religions, because it doesnt.

whether you wish to believe it or not, there were a myriad of other religions on this planet LONG before there were any christians......to say otherwise is foolish.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

so, since my religion "farcity" mentions the creation episode (let us assume it is very similar to the OT creation episode) ......even though i just made it up 3 minutes ago, do i get to make the claim that my religion predates all of the others?

or, if you prefer, i can make some abstract references to some ancient celtic faith, and also make the claim that my religion predates the druids and such if you like.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Puma said:


> > But there is a vast amount if information in the bible. This information pre-dates Christ, therefore it predates christianity
> 
> 
> this is a fallacy plain and simple. if *I* were to write a book about some savior, lets call him "Bob", and i write about some of his history including his father's creation episode, let us call him "Bob senior" who creates the planet and so forth......etc. etc. let us call the religion "farcity"
> ...


 Dead Sea Scrolls. Actual parchment, and tablets have been found. They agree with the bible, and have be carbon dated. That's what I am trying to tell you. The beginnigs of the bible were written by Moses. Some were found. There are also eqyptian documents, that validate his story there, and the Pharo he had issues with. All this can be dated, to the same time. You proclaim to know so much about these older religions. Please name them, and give me an origin. I then I can search for prove to validate the Torah is much older than your relegion. This topic is about the bible, not the New testement... Correct???

This is all much older than your book of BOB!!!!









Hey was bob ever on a knob :rasp:


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

i see now what you are saying, so i retract the previous banter.











> Dead Sea Scrolls. Actual parchment, and tablets have been found. They agree with the bible, and have be carbon dated


yes, i heard all about it in my old testament course several years ago. while this is interesting, it is completely meaningless. the ancient egyptians, who were amonst the first cultures to have a good written-history, make NO note of a world-wide flood or even a localized flood......



> I then I can search for prove to validate the Torah is much older than your relegion


no, actually all you can find is the opinions of biblical scholars who do not use the scientific method. plus, the torah scrolls are also a major tool for jewish people, making their use as evidence for strictly "christians" meaningless.

if we can drop the history of the OT for a second, let us get into something that matters even more.......the validity of the claims of the actual book.

let us pick one.....oh......lets see, so many - how about, you explain to me how a piece of fruit can convey knowledge to someone who eats it, preferably without getting into an abstract debate about how the nutrition provided by the fruit could induce the release of hormones (like CCK) that are involved with digestion and hence make adam and eve more "intelligent".

hopefully they can find the apple, and after carbon-14 dating it, they can divide it evenly amongst the christians of the world (to hell with everyone else, literally.) to increase the MAP testing scores in U.S. highschools.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Puma said:


> or, if you prefer, i can make some abstract references to some ancient celtic faith, and also make the claim that my religion predates the druids and such if you like.


 I may be reading into it, but I never meant to convey that what I believe somehow predates the Druids. A lot of modern day Neo-Pagan beliefs, Wicca included, actually have roots with traditional Druidism.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

no, i just didnt understand what serrasalmus was talking about, but i do now.

while the history of the faith is somewhat interesting, what is more interesting to me is the actual claims the faith makes.

to me, an absurdity does not cease to be an absurdity simply because it is older.

i know that no one was suggesting this, but that is my main "hands thrown in the air" thought dealing with christians in general.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Puma said:


> i see now what you are saying, so i retract the previous banter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 World wide flood. That has also been verified by scientists. When the matterial that composes some of the largest moutains is examined. Guess what. The mountian couln't have chronalogically fomed that way. Newer rock, on older rock, and older rock on newer rock.

Carbon dating isn't even require to prove the land was filled with water. Fossilized rock proves that. Even an earquake couldn't form the mountain sediments the way they are. Science agrees the land was covered with water, and everything kinda swished around, and then the water went away. Do you remember the Fabled City of Alexandrea???? It has been found under water... Why are so many ancient cities depicted in the bible, and Roman history being found under water???

But back to you oldest religion. I am waiting...


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

As for the mountains forming and whatnot...what about the Ice Age that happed around 10,000 years ago? That carved the lands that it touched into what we now know.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

dracofish said:


> As for the mountains forming and whatnot...what about the Ice Age that happed around 10,000 years ago? That carved the lands that it touched into what we now know.


 I'm not 100% up to date on what all happened during the ice age. Was it world wide???

Was it from polar cap to the Equator??? I don't think so, or there would be no life. This mountain formation is world wide. This type of sedimate build up couldn't have been caused by the ice age. There is evidence of civilization also in these movements of sediments. Civilization means people. Were the people during the ice age???

If so, I bet it would be in the bible


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Yes, there were people back then:

"During 130,000-35,000 years ago the Neanderthals were replaced by modern (Cro-Magnon) humans, whose artifacts (especially art) can be found in places (such as caves) all over the world."

"Clear evidence of Ice Age Civilization in the period of 35,000 to 12,000 years ago 
is found in Fukui Cave of Northern Kyushu Island, the southwesternmost island of Japan, in the form of Jomon pottery containers, which (according to Joseph B. Lambert's book Traces of the Past (Addison-Wesley 1997))have been dated as slightly later than 12,750 +/- 500 years old, and therefore consistent with coinciding with the end of the Ice Age about 11,600 years ago, so that the Jomon pottery could have been taken to Fukui Cave of Kyushu by Jomon people of the Ice Age Civilization when they fled the flooding of the surrounding lowlands after the Ice Age ended around 11,600 years ago."

Please, read the source.

BTW, the mentioned flooding was due to the receding glaciers...


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

No way, before the flood there was a atmospheric layer wich contained lots of water, and when the flood came got let that water pour down and also water reserves from below burst up. but since the atmospheric water layer was gone now the greenhouse effect was gone and it became summer and winter seasons on the earth, and after the water masses had pulled back, alot of it froze in the northern and southern areas. that is my beleif.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

the scientific community has disproven Noah's farce so many years ago, it is laughable that some still cling to it as if it even makes a lick of sense.

the is NO evidence for Noahs floods account, you have been reading too much "creation" magazine (which i have a subscription to) and spending too much time on www.answersingenesis.com - the "premier" creationist site....which is also laughable since it is supposedly the "best" they have.

do me a favor, go to walmart and buy 10 of any potted plants you like. mix up some salt-water and soak all of the plants in the solution for 40 days and 40 nights......then come back and talk to me









it is a fairy tale, and it ranks right up there with cinderella.



> This mountain formation is world wide


which one the appalachians? yes, the range in north american is amazingly similar to the range in europe because the 2 continents were connected at one time millions of years ago. mountains are formed from a variety of ways, one of which is simple plate tectonics.



> Carbon dating isn't even require to prove the land was filled with water


fallacy once again, since even if evidence DID point to a global flood (and many other non-christian religions do have some sort of flood also) it would not necessarilly point to _Noah's_ flood........lay off the fallacies!











> Science agrees the land was covered with water, and everything kinda swished around, and then the water went away.


Huh?



> Newer rock, on older rock, and older rock on newer rock.


untrue, have you ever taken a geology class and heard of "tilting" ?



> If so, I bet it would be in the bible


i doubt it, but even then it doesnt really matter. christians would just find some verse that loosely sounds like it *might be tied in with whatever point is trying to be made and call it "covered".


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

go here instead (or in addition to, since www.answersingenesis.com is good for a laugh)

http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/default.htm

plus, like i already said, finding a religion that existed before christianity was dreamed up is NOT difficult.

there were jewish people on this planet LONG before there were any christians......so take Judaism if you wish, sure.

i still have yet to hear an explanation of how a piece of fruit could convey knowledge.....i guess you think it is a ridiculous fairy-tale not meant to be taken seriously also.....ok.

this one then- maybe someone can explain the copulation process involved with the holy spirit and Mary? do you simply tie a bedsheet to yourself and make little eyes holes not-unlike halloween and sneak up on your wife?


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## channafreak (Mar 27, 2004)

Puma said:


> this one then- maybe someone can explain the copulation process involved with the holy spirit and Mary? do you simply tie a bedsheet to yourself and make little eyes holes not-unlike halloween and sneak up on your wife?


 Maybe this will work on my lady neighbor.....

Anyway this is frickin crazyness. God said open your heart to me. I opened my heart and he told me that the bible was created by man and thus very open to abuse of power, falsifications, and corruptions. He told me that the real word of god lies inside of me and I always carry the truth. God said that he shows himself to each of us differently. The one important thing that god wants us to know is that if we lead our lives in his image, doing great deeds for others, making friends out of our enemys, living humble lives, cherishing our parents and family, than we have truly already found him.

Wait......maybe god is common sense.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Puma said:


> go here instead (or in addition to, since www.answersingenesis.com is good for a laugh)
> 
> http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/default.htm
> 
> ...


 I don't bother reading or researching garbage. If you want to read something to help you understand. There is a book by H.P Blavatski. It's called Isis Unveiled. It explains about the cataclysmic things occurring to the earth over time. Meteor Bombardment, destroying the Dinosaur, Ice Age, and the Great Flood. She was a part of a very secretive occult order researching the truth. Some of her documents made it to books you can find.

And I am not talking about the Appalachian Mountains. World wide mountain ranges. Mt Everest. Mountains in Afghanistan, and Iraq.

Please take the time to read. I am not talking about chistianity. The bible. I am asking you to produce a religion older than the bible. You profess it's easy. I am waiting for an answer.

I have read about 16 that Pre-date Sumeria. That is the clue I am giveing you. IF your must be prior to the formation or Sumaria, or it's too easy to validate the bible being older.

We have all laughed about you book of BOB...

Please produce a religion older... YOu are rambling, and loosing ground to debate upon. Topic is BIble not Christianity...


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

I definatly shifted the topic to Christianity however.


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

Noahs flood did happen, and there is hard evidence on that, on Mt Ararat in Turkey the ark is located. take a trip, take all the high tech equipment , sattelites, ground radars and ect ect. survey the ENTIRE mountain, every square metre of it and then come back and talk to me


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Xenon said:


> I definatly shifted the topic to Christianity however.


 I appologize for taking it into another direction. I will unqeustionably agree there are religions older than Chistianity (The concept of Christ). But now the Bible as a full document laid down to man , buy a higher intelligence than he (*THe one True GOD!!*).


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> Xenon said:
> 
> 
> > I definatly shifted the topic to Christianity however.
> ...


 But not the Bible as a full document laid down to man , buy a higher intelligence than he (THe one True GOD!!).

It remains the oldest documentation about religious practices... Even the geneology of Christ as promised to Arbraham has been verified and validated. There were other books besides the bible back them. Funny how they have simulate geneology, and depict the kings, and people of the time

Damn not being able to edit sucks


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Well, when you say the word "Bible," people think Christianity. If you are only talking about the Old Testament, why don't you refer to it with it's true name instead of calling it the Bible, which it is not if that's all you're looking at?

You say you don't bother yourself with scientific "garbage." Well, I'm sorry, but every ounce of good points you were making in this argument just got lost with me. I had a feeling that you would say that. Look at the page I provided. It clearly states that man has been around for way more than 10,000 years...which is clearly longer than the Bible goes back. The earth is MILLIONS of years old...the first Cro Magnon (modern man capable of art) came about 100,000 years ago...way before any Old Testament or Moses.

As for the mountain ranges being similar...well, all the contintents used to be connected into one giant one called Pangea. Haven't you ever wondered why the coastlines of the Americas closely lines up with those of Europe and Africa? Where's that in the Bible? Does the Bible explain the action of the techtonic plates that caused the continents to shift?

As for the whole proof of the flood thing on that mountain...wasn't that disproved as a fallacy a few years back?

As for proof of glaciers carving away the earth...well, around here we have these things called the Hoppers. They are a large expance of dips called "kettles" closely connected together in the ground. Each kettle is about 100 feet across and maybe 50 feet deep. Researchers have dated their creation back to the last Ice Age about 10,000 years ago. When the glaciers receded, they also moved massive amounts of earth around with them, carving out the landscape. That's the way many of our modern formations came about.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> I am asking you to produce a religion older than the bible


the bible is NOT a religion, it is a collection of oral tradition that forms the basis *for* several religions, but it is just a book.

look, you can believe what you wish. if you want to think that Noah built a ship, collected 2 (7 of some) of each of the millions of insect species as well as large, carnivorous mammals, noctural animals, fossorial animals, the marsupials from australia, and maybe the T-rex so be it. (perhaps he led the massive T-rex into the ark by using a banana on the end of a stick) if you think that after the entire planet was flooded with salt-water that a dove brought back an olive branch....fine.

the idea is so completely juvenile a child can see that it makes no sense.

BTW- for the last time, and for the last time only - I HAVE NOW TWICE SAID THAT JUDAISM IS AN EXAMPLE OF A RELIGION THAT HAS EXISTED LONGER THAN CHRISTIANITY, JUDAISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! JUST PICK ONE!

what people want to believe and what the actual reality is are not necessarily the same thing unfortunately, and i can see that scientific means of investigation do not play a vital role in your belief system.

think what you want, but please do not pursue a career in the science field.....i dont want you as my doctor nor to teach the children of this country science.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

Puma said:


> think what you want, but please do not pursue a career in the science field.....i dont want you as my doctor nor to teach the children of this country science.


 a-men to that :laugh:


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## Piromaniac (Mar 20, 2004)

Puma said:


> look, you can believe what you wish. if you want to think that Noah built a ship, collected 2 (7 of some) of each of the millions of insect species as well as large, carnivorous mammals, noctural animals, fossorial animals, the marsupials from australia, and maybe the T-rex so be it. (perhaps he led the massive T-rex into the ark by using a banana on the end of a stick) if you think that after the entire planet was flooded with salt-water that a dove brought back an olive branch....fine.


 Just a little food for thought......MAYBE Noah could fit the animals into the "ark" if he was collecting DNA from each species. (Can't wait for the negative feedback from this one...lol)


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> Puma said:
> 
> 
> > think what you want, but please do not pursue a career in the science field.....i dont want you as my doctor nor to teach the children of this country science.
> ...


 Funny you should say that. My Major is physics, and I hope to obtain a Doctoral degree in the subject. Never know what could be discovered in the future. We are living in the last days... According the the book of revalations....

The dragon was put forth to decieve the whole world. You need faith, and belief. You can't beging to solve a perfect equation with an imperfect mind.

Most of my statements had scientific relations. Especially the superstring theory of eleven dimensional space. They all validate the Bible in context, and time period.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

and a side and completely unrelated note.... speaking of Cro-Magnon man, I was watching the Discovery channel "Walking with Cavemen" and it had a vivid scene that sticks out in my mind for the first encounter of ****-sapiens with Neandrethal men (sp?). HS moved up from Africa into Europe the home of the Neandretal.... imagine the sight, the first encounter with another species of human.... thats mind boggling.

Science still has yet to explain the missing link in evolution, the reason we made such a giant leap ahead in such a short period of time. Some people attribute it to a long lost humanoid species, some claim it was alien cloning.... I claim it was Gods work.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> The dragon was put forth to decieve the whole world. You need faith, and belief. You can't beging to solve a perfect equation with an imperfect mind..


As a sidenote, I love how you are using the name of a mythological beast that actually has nothing to do with evil or the "Devil" to describe a supposed Biblical being that shall destroy the earth. Christianity only made it seem so in hopes of stamping out the myths and beliefs of others. Where do you think the common image of Satan comes from? Why, the Horned God of the Celts, of course. He also goes by the name of the Green Man and sometimes Pan. Having the image of their beloved god turned into the image of the Christian's Satan was perhaps one of the hardest things for both old and new "Pagans" alike...he had nothing to do with the Devil, and was certainly not evil, yet was thought that way by Christians, so the image stuck.

You also have not addressed my query about your Biblical proof of Pangea, the presence of modern man 100,000 years ago (if a man has the brain capacity to draw art, he has the capacity for thought), or the fact that our continents are based on a whole network of techtonic plates floating on a mass of liquid hot mag-ma...insert Dr. Evil finger here...









Xenon, I also watched that special, and I do believe that the narrator specifically said that it would have been impossible for those two species to actually meet. He then went on to say that they made that part for theatrical effect...a sort of "what if" scenario.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

Xenon said:


> HS moved up from Africa into Europe the home of the Neandretal.... imagine the sight, the first encounter with another species of human.... thats mind boggling.


 if you ever have the time you might care to look into taking a course of introductory anthropology. You learn all about that stuff. Very fascinating course.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> The dragon was put forth to decieve the whole world


luckily i always wear my dragon repellent, you never know when those bastards will show up.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

dracofish said:


> Xenon, I also watched that special, and I do believe that the narrator specifically said that it would have been impossible for those two species to actually meet. He then went on to say that they made that part for theatrical effect...a sort of "what if" scenario.


 I thought there was a hypothesis going around that ****-Sapiens killed the Neandrethals.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

dracofish said:


> serrasalmus_collector said:
> 
> 
> > The dragon was put forth to decieve the whole world. You need faith, and belief. You can't beging to solve a perfect equation with an imperfect mind..
> ...


 I know where the common image of satan came from.

Pan the hoofed musician. Satan was given his image to confuse people about those that worshiped Pan.

The true Satan, or Lucifer, is actually a very beautiful being. He was once and angel. And all that god made was beautiful, and pure. The bible never says Satan was hurtful, or ugly. Christianity and inquisitions developed lot's of wrong images. Those are to scare people away from other practices. Not the best tactic, but it worked for many. Those are some of the veils Christianity have put. I fully understand where you are coming from, but I still say the Bible was the 1st religion.

If you have another idea of where Satan's image came from please inform me&#8230; Mine may be older than yours.

I am a true studier of the occult. The occult is deeply rooted in mathematics and the bible. Do you know the concept of the *Tree of life, and the Tree of Knowledge?*

All pagan relegions are based on the tree of life. It first began in the bible.

The major arcana of all the tarot comes from the paths of the Sepheroth. The church of Christ and the Church of Satan use the tree of life. One is just reverted. All forms of energy have a polarity. Same with religion. That is why the bible warns against divination and idolatry. Most people don't know a fallen angel from a divine angel. Most of these so called pagan religions don't go beyond the scope of planetary Magick. They can't comprehend the energy forces to be harness from beyond the Crab nebulae.

Once these pagan religions start to harness energy, astral project, or scry to different planes of existence; they attract forces. Sometimes they have no idea what they have attracted, and declare it as a god. The Dragon laughs. He has performed another job of deceiving man. I apologize, for my use the word Dragon. I personally see the word Dragon fitting for the dark supreme force of evil. Isn't it Ironic Revelations use the word Dragon too?


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

Xenon said:


> dracofish said:
> 
> 
> > Xenon, I also watched that special, and I do believe that the narrator specifically said that it would have been impossible for those two species to actually meet. He then went on to say that they made that part for theatrical effect...a sort of "what if" scenario.
> ...


 thats a popular theory, but at the current time anyway it seems to not be most likely one. 
The theory most accepted by the anthropology groups at this time is that **** sapiens indirectly out-competed neanderthals for food, via their superior hunting methods. Example: its been found that neandertals tended to reside in gullies/valleys/caves other low areas. They were subsequently unable to spot passing herds that may have only been a mile or two away, and therefore didn't eat. Modern humans meanwhile tended to camp on hilltops and such so they could view approaching herds, and thereby plan methods of attack, and basically plan coordinated ambushes. Neandertals on the other hand, judging from the frequency in their bone damage/injuries, merely jumped right into currently-passing herds and tried to spear animals. They put no foresight into their hunting methods. They were also immobile in their encampments, preferring to remain stationary. So if animals passed by, they got lucky. If they didnt pass by, they went hungry.

They consequently ate less, had fewer children, and as relativley nomadic modern **** sapiens became more successful and prolific, the neandertal population effectively dwindled to nil.

Inbreeding with sapiens was another plausible cause for the extinction of the neandertals, though anthropologists speculate this didn't happen very often.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

and the same argument effectively applies to our Fish situation. Native fish getting outcompeted/native fish outcompeting fish populations in other parts of the world, etc. The whole Snakehead deal and such. Or green sunfish wrecking cichlid populations in central america.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Once again, you show how much you misunderstand the term "Paganism." It is a broad umbrella to encompass any number of faiths that identify with these terms:

1. Pantheism or Panentheism
2. Animism
3. Polytheism
4. The Eternal Present (Primary emphais upon spiritual reality's cyclical and mythical rather than linear and historical character)
5. No equivalent of Satan or ultimate evil

There, it's spelled out...I do not practice magick...I do not scry for anything beyone the Crab Nebulae. I simply believe in celebrating the earth and the cycle of the seasons and moon that so governs our lives. I believe in a dualism of male and female halves that make up the Divine. I believe that the Divine is present everywhere...and can make contact at any time, as with my first initial "feeling" that I experienced in the woods that day. I believe in choosing my path through experience, not faith nor through written teachings or idols (and yes, I do believe that some Christians do practice idolatry when it comes to reverance of the Bible...something that they are not supposed to do). I do not believe in Satan or Original Sin. I have explained my reasoning on that in past posts.

I do not appreciate you associating my beliefs with those that practice the Occult...I do not do that and I have no wish to.

And you still have not addressed my query about Pangea, the presence of man 100,000 years ago, or the way our planet changes through plate techtonics.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

religion to me is not a fight over "which one was practiced first" but is a fight over which one is the least ridiculous when tested with science.

regardless of what you think, the bible is a BOOK - not a religion. christianity is also NOT the most ancient religion, but if believing in talking snakes and invisible sky-daddies is more palatable to you if it is "the 1st religion" that's fine with me, its your cup of tea.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

also, no one has decided to tackle my second question of the reproductive mode of a man with a bedsheet...........how much of your bible do we need to dispel before we can get a response? keeping in mind that *I* gave you the courtesy of a response when you asked a question.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

One thing you also don't seem to understand is that there are parallels in the Old Testament and with other ancient texts of other religions, some of which do not exist anymore. Have you ever given thought to the idea that maybe these ideas came to the writers of the Old Testament and they thought they were "cool" so they added them? I don't understand how you can say that the idea of the Tree of Life is copyright soley to the Old Testament. Many, many, many faiths have that symbol, and those people were never exposed to any version of the Old Testament. How could they take it from the Bible if they never saw it to begin with?


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

dracofish said:


> One thing you also don't seem to understand is that there are parallels in the Old Testament and with other ancient texts of other religions, some of which do not exist anymore. Have you ever given thought to the idea that maybe these ideas came to the writers of the Old Testament and they thought they were "cool" so they added them? I don't understand how you can say that the idea of the Tree of Life is copyright soley to the Old Testament. Many, many, many faiths have that symbol, and those people were never exposed to any version of the Old Testament. How could they take it from the Bible if they never saw it to begin with?


 The torah of Moses accurately depicts the existence of the tree of life. It should not be confusing to you why other religions have developed it. There are astrological symbols to the horoscope. The houses and basic symbolism is identical in many cultures. Cultures that could not have possible contacted each other. Unless your theory of a universal land mass was here. Then migration for food, and escape from persecutions cause nomadic behavior.

The stories of the Tower of Babel and the Great flood do make the most sense. The tower of Babel caused confusion and different races. God punished the whole world. The world will never again assemble as a unit. Language barriers, racial barriers, and the coming flood to isolate land masses can explain some of the similarities. There is also information about there being another ark. It's not depicted in the bible, but still a possibility.

I'm sure on your studies you will encounter the word Malkuth in your practices. It is Hebrew word for the Earth Sepheria. These words exist in the Hebrew scholar's bible, and old text.

The tree of life always strikes a spark in true studiers. Unfortunately the Hebrew lettering of the Ancient days correctly work the Spheres and paths. To study and practice anything ancient, you should be compelled to learn the language. Why trust to books, and works of others&#8230; You should push yourself to the limit, and learn to read, and write the language of your religion. Then you will start to agree with me. The Bible was the 1st recorded document of worship, and adornment.

Aleister Crowley was a great magick user. He required all his pupils to read the Koran, Holy Bible, Bahavagita, and the Chaldean oracles of Zoroaster. He said there is a spark of divine in all religions. Read study, and learn. Then make a decision. The bible is truly the beginning of all other religions. Some got whacked in translation. Others decided to emphasize on one topic, and forget the rest. Others were fooled by the fallen angels that took flesh form. They were called the Nephylum. The existence of the Nephylum gave explanation to all Olympian beliefs. The Bible graphically explains angels taking flesh form, and mating with Humans. The results were, giants, freaks, and beings of unquestionable power. Many would chose to worship than die. Those worshipers documented their beliefs. Some of those documents are quite old, and confuse people.

There were no nuclear reactions or stealth bombers. These halfanglic beings were unstopable my man. Have you heard the story of Lilith??? Adams seducer who spawn a race of diabolical creatures??? She is in the bible, and much Hebrew mystisism


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> The torah of Moses accurately depicts the existence of the tree of life. It should not be confusing to you why other religions have developed it. There are astrological symbols to the horoscope. The houses and basic symbolism is identical in many cultures. Cultures that could not have possible contacted each other. Unless your theory of a universal land mass was here. Then migration for food, and escape from persecutions cause nomadic behavior.


 That nomadic behavior that separated the people happend way before Moses...can't you understand that? Or was Moses around 100,000 years ago? You also have not yet addressed the fact that there was a supercontinent, Pangea, that eventually broke up and formed the continents we know today. Why did they break up and move? Plate techtonics...

Almost every religion has a creation story and many use a form of tree to bring forth that story. Just because there are certain similarities and parallels does not mean that the Old Testament was the first or only.


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

Puma said:


> > I am asking you to produce a religion older than the bible
> 
> 
> the bible is NOT a religion, it is a collection of oral tradition that forms the basis *for* several religions, but it is just a book.
> ...


 you think sience can prove anything dont ya. its so funny how many times scientific beliefs have changed when new discoveries were made, in times past ppl beleived blood was made of gall and brain slime and other wierd stuff, but we now today know that it consits of other things.
Science, is very unreliable in several cases.

As for massive dinosaurs, there was nothing in the bible that said the animals had to be adults, they could just as well been Juvenile. but also i dont think you prolly even beleive in a god at all, because shurley a Being so powerfull that he could create the universe could preserve life. yes the earth was coverd in waters, but there was no more salt then there is now, the earth was coverd and with such ammounts of water the salt would be heavily diluted.

as i said, science, can be flawed.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> The Bible was the 1st recorded document of worship, and adornment.


 Many other belief systems, Druidism included, were largely oral traditions and were not written down. Just because the Old Testament was written does not mean that it was the only, nor the first.

_Most modern Druids connect the origin of their religion to the ancient Celtic people. However, historical data is scarce. The Druids may well have been active in Britain and perhaps in northern Europe before the advent of the Celts.

Many academics believe that the ancestors of the Celts were the Proto-Indo European culture who lived near the Black Sea circa 4000 BCE. Some migrated in a South-Westerly direction to create the cultures of Thrace and Greece; others moved North-West to form the Baltic, Celtic, Germanic and Slavic cultures. Evidence of a Proto-Celtic Unetice or Urnfield culture has been found in what is now Slovakia circa 1000 BCE. This evolved into a group of loosely linked tribes which formed the Celtic culture circa 800 BCE. By 450 BCE they had expanded into Spain; by 400 BCE they were in Northern Italy, and by 270 BCE, they had migrated into Galatia (central Turkey). By 200 BCE, they had occupied the British Isles, Brittany, much of modern France, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and Switzerland, North West Spain, and their isolated Galatia settlement in Turkey.

Although the Celts had a written language, it was rarely used. Their religious and philosophical beliefs were preserved in an oral tradition. Little of their early history remains. Most of our information comes from Greek and Roman writers, who may well have been heavily biased (the Celts invaded Rome in 390 BCE and Greece in 279 BCE). Other data comes from the codification (and modification) of Celtic myth cycles by Christian monks. The latter included the Ulster Cycle, the Fenian Cycle, the Cycle of Kings, the Invasion Races Cycle from Ireland, and The Mabinogion from Wales. Unfortunately, much Celtic history and religion has been lost or distorted by an overlay of Christianity. _

source

As you can see, all those people were not from around the Fertile Crescent, so how were they able to know what the Old Testament said?


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Markosaur said:


> as i said, science, can be flawed.


 And religion cannot? How long did it take the Catholic Church to admit that the Earth is round? How long did it take them to admit that the Earth is not the center of our solar system and that the sun does not revolve around us?


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> you think sience can prove anything dont ya. its so funny how many times scientific beliefs have changed when new discoveries were made


this is 100% correct. if someone tests something and finds that a previously held notion no longer seems correct, and his research is subjected to rigorous testing by other scientists, then old information is overturned......isnt that the hallmark of good science?

religion, on the other hand, (well, i should say SOME religions) holds onto ridiculous notions LONG after they have been proven either unlikely or outright absurd.

noah's farce ringing a bell? the flat earth? plate tectonis? sun before plants? (see genesis) etc. etc. etc.


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

however, sience, the knowladge we have today, can't prove everything, and many things can be proven faulty. how many times has somone said that this is possible and its been disproven, just to later to be proven to actully be possible.


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## ViBE (Jul 22, 2003)

Avril Lavigne is f*cking ugly and is a horrible singer.

Sorry, just had to say it. Doing my homework and IM listening to the radio.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

ViBE said:


> Avril Lavigne is f*cking ugly and is a horrible singer.
> 
> Sorry, just had to say it. Doing my homework and IM listening to the radio.


 Heithen...... or something....









</derail>


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> ViBE said:
> 
> 
> > Avril Lavigne is f*cking ugly and is a horrible singer.
> ...


 Actually, this thread needs a good derail...I'm getting sick of arguing...


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

science is not flawed, only man's perception of science can be flawed

the universe is Math.


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## channafreak (Mar 27, 2004)

Holy sh*t. science bashing?? Your right though in most sciences there are very few laws. Everything is sebject to change. Some things havent changed for centurys. Some change weekly. It is that persuit of knowledge using testable methods and mechanisms that propel us into a further understanding of our world and our ancestery. We move forward to deeper understand the framework that has been set forth over the last hundred years. To call it an unreliable source would only mean that you do not fully understand the subject matter. To call it a theroy means you understand the material and realize that we still strive to learn about the details using testable methods. Most of our most flawed science predated the last centurys scientific revolution. It was based mostly on finding an explanation based on direct observation. Science too has had its failures. The founder of genetics Gregor Mendel unmounted the ever popular blending theory of inheratable traits between 1856 and 1863. Mendel died in 1884. 34 years were to pass between the publication of his research and the recognition of their significance. We were wrong for so long about how inheritence worked. That is the basis of science. Taking what we know now and building upon that structure or in some cases disproving it all together. The way we understand is by looking at all the information unbiasdly. The alternative to science is ignorange.


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## ViBE (Jul 22, 2003)

channafreak said:


> Holy sh*t. science bashing?? Your right though in most sciences there are very few laws. Everything is sebject to change. Some things havent changed for centurys. Some change weekly. It is that persuit of knowledge using testable methods and mechanisms that propel us into a further understanding of our world and our ancestery. We move forward to deeper understand the framework that has been set forth over the last hundred years. To call it an unreliable source would only mean that you do not fully understand the subject matter. To call it a theroy means you understand the material and realize that we still strive to learn about the details using testable methods. Most of our most flawed science predated the last centurys scientific revolution. It was based mostly on finding an explanation based on direct observation. Science too has had its failures. The founder of genetics Gregor Mendel unmounted the ever popular blending theory of inheratable traits between 1856 and 1863. Mendel died in 1884. 34 years were to pass between the publication of his research and the recognition of their significance. We were wrong for so long about how inheritence worked. That is the basis of science. Taking what we know now and building upon that structure or in some cases disproving it all together. The way we understand is by looking at all the information unbiasdly. The alternative to science is ignorange.


 It snot ignorance. The hell are you talking about?

Science aren't always right. Right now, Darwin's theory is sh*t. Wow, you must be brainwashed.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

ViBE said:


> Right now, Darwin's theory is sh*t. Wow, you must be brainwashed.


whoa whoa whoa, look who's talking.







Care to actually back your statement up? I haven't heard any EVOLUTION DISPROVEN headlines in the newspaper lately :laugh:


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## mechanic (Jan 11, 2003)

Can't we all just agree to disagree?
I mean if Adam and Eve only had sons and we are all descended from them what does that make their son's?








Sorry had to add some levity.
Eric


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## con man (Mar 7, 2004)

god in his self is a false idle we have absolutely no idea kof what he/she looked like

no books were writen during that tie descridbing jesus or acts of jesus or the aposttles for all we kno it could have been made up by a bunch of drunks (the apostles)

the bible is not/ can not b historically accurate on the account that no books were written untill 200+ years later wich means the truths were streched if not made up

bottom line do i believe the bible is correct and or perfect

no way in hell is it correct or near correct

jesus loved everyone yet he had no female or different race apostles?
the christian communtity dont allow female preiets .. would jesus have?yes he would (at kleast taht wat yur told)

the bible is historicaly INacurate


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

mechanic said:


> Can't we all just agree to disagree?
> I mean if Adam and Eve only had sons and we are all descended from them what does that make their son's?
> 
> 
> ...


 Hence my claim that f*cking your sister is a perfectly viable recreational activity :nod:


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## con man (Mar 7, 2004)

as far as i care marry's dad coulda cummed in her sheats and got her pregnant (seeman can make its way into the vagiana)


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## mechanic (Jan 11, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> mechanic said:
> 
> 
> > Can't we all just agree to disagree?
> ...


 Oh man, that is SOOO wrong!
But whatever floats your boat I guess!








E


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

i dont know about following a book writen by people so long ago cause they used

to think up some crazy sh*t to explain thing. i would be like practiceing medicine

the same way they did 200 years ago when they would bleed some one to cure em

you get what i m say in. i dont know much about the bible never read it execpt

the part were is good to use all furits and seeds (in my pot smokein days :laugh: )

and revalations was all that could hold my attention so my opinion might be a little

off. but i think that "god" or who ever is in the heart and you just have to live a

good life and good things will happen to you when you take the great nap, what

ever happens then who knows. i think goin to church and being a bible banger

lost all relevance with todays culture. were livein to fast to worry half the time

about goin to heaven or hell and more worried about makein the morgage or

car payment and hows on the damn cell phone while drivein to work or the mall

to get more sh*t. maybe thats exactly whats wrong with todays culture maybe

they need to read the bible to get some morals i dont know


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## channafreak (Mar 27, 2004)

ViBE said:


> It snot ignorance. The hell are you talking about?
> 
> Science aren't always right. Right now, Darwin's theory is sh*t. Wow, you must be brainwashed.


 rofl......








Just one question. Have you read Orgin Of Species. 
I suppose my masters in biology must have brainwashed me. lol


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## channafreak (Mar 27, 2004)

mr.freez said:


> maybe thats exactly whats wrong with todays culture maybe
> 
> they need to read the bible to get some morals i dont know


 We dont need to read the bible to do that.
Our morals as humans didnt stem from the bible.


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## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

Why do you guys find the need to question each other's religion?? It seems like you have insecurities about what you believe in. The fact that some of you so passionately try to argue and prove another's religion wrong speaks volumes about the strength of your faith.

Fellow Christians, same goes for you.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

crazyklown89 said:


> Why do you guys find the need to question each other's religion?? It seems like you have insecurities about what you believe in. The fact that some of you so passionately try to argue and prove another's religion wrong speaks volumes about the strength of your faith.
> 
> Fellow Christians, same goes for you.


That argument misrepresents us. Its not about our mutual insecurities, its a logic dispute.

The people with whom I am arguing with, in my eyes, are insisting that 2+2 = 5. They claim this is possible because though in secular terms 2+2=4, they insist that a divine power has claimed the answer to be 5 instead.

What really bugs me though is that some of them claim it is 5 not only because divine light says so, but because, they claim, the proof that 2+2=5 can be found in the world today via hard evidence.

This is a kick-back forum, we don't come here to put our beliefs and way of living on the line. If some of us want to attempt an intelligent debate over a controversial topic though, then we shall.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> crazyklown89 said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you guys find the need to question each other's religion?? It seems like you have insecurities about what you believe in. The fact that some of you so passionately try to argue and prove another's religion wrong speaks volumes about the strength of your faith.
> ...


 I agree 100%. Intelligent debat. Not forcing any religious belifes on any one. Just a basic arguement with each side justifying the reasons for thier beliefs quite well.

2+4 = 5... That's a good one. Did you decare what base the mathmatics was in???? In base 10 you are correct about the answer being 4. But the concept of multiplication an addition in other bases can yeild 2+2=5

You may also elect to utilize an encryption where 2 is actually equal to 2.5. This encryption techince is used by many mathematician to keep formulae secret. Kinda like the Kabbala and gematira of the Old testimate has secrets you just don't understand. I do believe in god. God and the bible are in everything you can concieve. If you look hard enough you will see them.

I wish the relegious debate could be solved as easy as mathematics.


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## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> crazyklown89 said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you guys find the need to question each other's religion?? It seems like you have insecurities about what you believe in. The fact that some of you so passionately try to argue and prove another's religion wrong speaks volumes about the strength of your faith.
> ...


Sorry, I didn't intend for you guys to see my comment as if I thought you guys were forcing your beliefs down each others' throats. I could see this would turn out to be an intellectual debate from the start but I had mistakenly forgot to add in that some members were trying to force their beliefs, not all. I apologize for the confusion and for most, disregard my comment.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

i think that questioning your own beliefs is an important thing.....your choice of religion (or lack of choice) is not something to be taken lightly, it affects our public education system, our criminal justice system, our courts, our foreign policy, and just about everything else you can imagine.

posting on religious subjects in the lounge is completely voluntary, if you dont like it dont post!


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Puma said:


> i think that questioning your own beliefs is an important thing.....your choice of religion (or lack of choice) is not something to be taken lightly, it affects our public education system, our criminal justice system, our courts, our foreign policy, and just about everything else you can imagine.
> 
> posting on religious subjects in the lounge is completely voluntary, if you dont like it dont post!


 I agree again. Cross refrencing somthing that has been tranlated many centuries can be a ver knowledgable thing. During the late 80's early 90's I played in 2 deathmetal bands, and met an array of people, with very diversified relegious beliefs. Many are still my friends. They have their religious path, I have mine. Quite aften we get together and debate our findings an beliefs.

It's all good.


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