# Ron Paul Announces 2012 Presidential Bid



## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

Finally someone worth casting a vote for....

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/13/breaking-rep-ron-paul-announces-third-bid-for-presidency/?hpt=T1


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

yeah...just wait until cnn and faux news sabotage him again, like they have for the past 8 years.


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

This is exactly why I like Ron Paul, hopefully he'll be elected.
F*ck faux news. .


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

r1dermon said:


> yeah...just wait until cnn and faux news sabotage him again, like they have for the past 8 years.


Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I think people are starting to see the shitstream media for what it really is, ignore it and vote with their heads and not their assses. This guy's got some awesome ideas (except for his immigration policy although I'm willing to live with it if the price for doing so is financial stability) and has the ability to get them across to people if they listen. If he can get the nomination I'd say he's got a better then even chance of makiing our current guy a one-termer.


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

i doubt it. he wont get the nomination because a bunch of brainless fools will vote for a poor republican candidate (which is all they really have at this point). palin will likely get the nod, because people really liked her show...

if he does get the nomination (which he wont), he'll be up against, not only a president with better than 50% approval ratings (at this point), he'll also be up against the fed, which has more money than god (because they can print it), and they will not go down without a massive financial fight. you can be sure that information will be made up on the spot (swift boat veterins for truth sound familiar?) and the ultimate smear campaign will ensue. it would be cool to watch though, so i hope it happens. if he does get the nod, i'd vote for him. other than that though, im afraid the R's dont have anyone in their camp that would compel me not to vote for obama.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Now that is a man I would love to see in office.


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

r1dermon said:


> i doubt it. he wont get the nomination because a bunch of brainless fools will vote for a poor republican candidate (which is all they really have at this point). palin will likely get the nod, because people really liked her show...
> 
> if he does get the nomination (which he wont), he'll be up against, not only a president with better than 50% approval ratings (at this point), he'll also be up against the fed, which has more money than god (because they can print it), and they will not go down without a massive financial fight. you can be sure that information will be made up on the spot (swift boat veterins for truth sound familiar?) and the ultimate smear campaign will ensue. it would be cool to watch though, so i hope it happens. if he does get the nod, i'd vote for him. other than that though, im afraid the R's dont have anyone in their camp that would compel me not to vote for obama.


your opinion, especially your last statement i would assume is the general feeling all over the country. the republican candidates have small hard core groups of followers, but nationally they are scores failing grades. the already president has an upper hand to start with. but unless the next year is very interesting and some truly aw inspiring words are shared by a candidate i would expect your cookie cutter opposition to the white house to be a huckabee or romney. an embeded republican, not a ron paul. its politics children, republicans only vote for someone who can offer something in return. its never about the people. they just say it is because to them we are a necessary evil they must appease.


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

I love Ron Paul, and I think he's a true Republican unlike the sh*t for brains party that exists today, which is the reason he'll never get the nomination.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Ron Paul is a true Republican that could get the votes from moderates such as myself. However sadly he wont be in the bid. The right will pick someone that would help them "out". Obama will get reelected no matter what the right does.


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## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer (Aug 22, 2006)

Im not even American and I love Ron Paul, hope you guys FINALLY get a worthwhile leader, you deserve it.


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

Danny Tanner said:


> Im not even American and I love Ron Paul, hope you guys FINALLY get a worthwhile leader, you deserve it.


Holy f*cking sh*t I agree with Danny about American national policy! I agree whole hearted and think he would be a fresh breath for the U.S. He seems like a very pragmatic man and very intelligent and very well spoken. I honestly don't think there has been a truly dedicated to reform president since Kennedy and would love to see that come 2012. Maybe focus on Outer Space again and engineering and technology instead of the bureaucratic global politics that the Americans get nothing but grief about anyway! I would love to see that U.S.A that I never have had the chance to see and think Ron Paul would be a step in that direction from what I can tell!


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

I'm happy to see the pro-Ron Paul sentiment in this thread.

It wasn't too long ago I posted a thread titled "Ron Paul & the 2012 Election" in this forum and got a number of negative responses about him.

He is a true American hero, a modern-day founding father.

Most people don't know Ron Paul was drafted out of med-school in college, and served in the Vietnam war as a flight surgeon. After 5 years of service he finished medical school and went on to be a Medical Doctor, who has delivered over 4,000 babies. He got into Congress in the 70's because he had been studying economics on the side for some time, and was worried about policy on the USD with relation to the Federal Reserve and government intervention in the field of medicine.

Having won the CPAC Strawpoll two years in a row, having destroyed so many in debate forums, setting records for grassroots money bombs ($6.5 mil in one day in 2007), and having a movement behind you titled a 'Revolution' should be a clear indication to the rest of the GOP, the conservative wing of the Republican party is shifting directions.

Yet the neo-con fascists like Trump, Gingrich, Huckabee, Hannity, O'Reilly, Rove, the Faux News minions, and all the rest of the GOP interchangable nobody's write him off as some 'crazy old grandpa.' Well, the days of 'Oh RP is just crazy' as an argument slogan are dead and gone. He has proven himself time and again in the debates he has the most principled stance. His views have not changed in the 30 years he has been serving in the U.S. Congress. He is the most conservative member of the Congress, he votes against more tax increases and spending increases than anyone, and there are still republicans who write him off-Question: What are you thinking? If republicans want a victory is 2012, they had better choose wisely. Mitt Romney, Trump, Gingrich, Huckabee, Palin, Cain- all losing horses, and if one those gets the (R) nomination, it will ensure an Obama victory- four more years of bailouts, drug prohibition, economic downtrodden, civil rights destruction, and non-stop wars.

In case you guys missed the first debate here is a full clip, and another funny one where RP explains why its okay to legalize heroin.

Ron Paul 2012














[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJow2ALVirk


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

I just started reading George Orwell's 1984 tonight and I gotta say it reminded me a lot of the States. With the fear and the hate and the abuse of power.


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

Danny Tanner said:


> Im not even American and I love Ron Paul, *hope you guys FINALLY get a worthwhile leader*, you deserve it.


its funny cause EVERYONE said the same thing about Obama. looks like that didnt work out too well...


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

What's wrong with Obama so far? I'd say he's done a good job.


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

i dont want to argue with what you think. thats fine. i was making the point that tons of people have flipped opinions on him...all this just a few years after the entire country celebrated in what was finally a real persons president. someone who ran on hope and change and finally won. now he ranks as a mediocre/below average president in approval ratings.


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

I voted for ron paul in the last election


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

10pointers said:


> What's wrong with Obama so far? I'd say he's done a good job.


what exactly is it that hes done?


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

muskielover1 said:


> What's wrong with Obama so far? I'd say he's done a good job.


what exactly is it that hes done?
[/quote]

He outspent Bush in a half a term which took the former president two terms. He dragged his dick on Bp oil spill. He's not recalled the troops in Iraq, never shut down Gitzmo bay. He's not really taken seriously on the global scale. He's not overally passive but not aggressive either. He's pretty much the same leader that's black. He's not really anything new or policy wise a reform mam which I think a lot of us thought he was going to be. Oh well lesson learned and try something new.


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## Scrappy (Oct 21, 2004)

Central said:


> now he ranks as a mediocre/below average president in approval ratings.


Bullshit. His approval ratings are very high right now at 60%.

Wisco, I was on the Paul bandwagon until I started listening to him on the Alex Jones Show. Alex Jones is a conspiracy theorist who's WAY out there. Youtube "Ron Paul + Alex Jones" and you'll find several interviews that may disturb you. That show is one of my guilty pleasures and I listen to it often. But holy crap that guy is nuts, and to hear Ron Paul agree with him was enough for me to stop supporting him. In one of his interviews with Alex, he (Ron) states that he believes Obama was put in office as a puppet to usher us toward a world currency, and eventually a world government by the banksters.

But ignoring the Alex Jones stuff, I just feel that Ron's too much of a Ideologue.


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

Scrappy said:


> now he ranks as a mediocre/below average president in approval ratings.


Bullshit. His approval ratings are very high right now at 60%.

Wisco, I was on the Paul bandwagon until I started listening to him on the Alex Jones Show. Alex Jones is a conspiracy theorist who's WAY out there. Youtube "Ron Paul + Alex Jones" and you'll find several interviews that may disturb you. That show is one of my guilty pleasures and I listen to it often. But holy crap that guy is nuts, and to hear Ron Paul agree with him was enough for me to stop supporting him. In one of his interviews with Alex, he (Ron) states that he believes Obama was put in office as a puppet to usher us toward a world currency, and eventually a world government by the banksters.

*But ignoring the Alex Jones stuff*, I just feel that Ron's too much of a Ideologue.
[/quote]

I find that impossible to resist as he sounds insane after awhile...another CT that is always RIGHT, and everyone is a LIAR...who knows the TRUTH!!! There are radicals on both sides of them though..if you can't argue either side sometimes then you need a hobby! AJones does have some interesting guests though I must say!


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## Scrappy (Oct 21, 2004)

Just to make things clear, I don't really support anyone politically. Obama is the best we'll get for the middle class out of the candidates we're given. But that's not saying much because all the past presidents and future candidates seem to just keep the status quo and pander to the big business lobby. But you can't get elected without their money.

This country will never again see a strong middle class until we form a political party that truly has the middle class interests at heart. You'll just see a continuing gap between the upper class and lower class. The middle class is already gone; with the median wage in America at $26,261.You guys know I love graphs, so here's IRS info compiled in graph forms. Pay close attention to all the ones that go back to 1981.

So to tie this back to Ron Paul. Personally, I think his ideology will be devastating to what's left of the middle class. Getting rid of the IRS sounds great. Shrinking the Fed to be almost non-existent sounds great. Deregulation sounds great. But in reality this plan just allows big business to do whatever they want with no one to stop them. When the Fed has no money to enforce laws the corporations are truly free.

Wanna see what happens in this environment? Take the exploding Ford Pinto case for example. Their cost analysis was it would be cheaper to pay on the lawsuits than recall the cars.



RedneckR0nin said:


> I find that impossible to resist as he sounds insane after awhile...another CT that is always RIGHT, and everyone is a LIAR...who knows the TRUTH!!! There are radicals on both sides of them though..if you can't argue either side sometimes then you need a hobby! AJones does have some interesting guests though I must say!


I didn't think I'd ever meet anyone else that listens to that show. I love it in a Jerry Springer kind of way. It's almost like crack for me. What I really like are the commercials. A few I like are the ads for property in Doomsday Communities, cheap food stockpiles, and the Silverlungs colloidal silver generator. lol


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

You bet Scrappy, Listened to it to get a feel for the sociological makeup of a Conspiracy Theorist this winter. Very interesting to say the very least. and wanted to try and understand what common traits found amongst them. I am neither a Troofer or a debunker even though I debunked the three big ones in my mind...just the social similarity between them all is fascinating!


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

RedneckR0nin said:


> What's wrong with Obama so far? I'd say he's done a good job.


what exactly is it that hes done?
[/quote]

He outspent Bush in a half a term which took the former president two terms. He dragged his dick on Bp oil spill. He's not recalled the troops in Iraq, never shut down Gitzmo bay. He's not really taken seriously on the global scale. He's not overally passive but not aggressive either. He's pretty much the same leader that's black. He's not really anything new or policy wise a reform mam which I think a lot of us thought he was going to be. Oh well lesson learned and try something new.
[/quote]

He overspent Bush? Do you know how much the Iraq war has costed since Bush invaded?


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

10pointers said:


> What's wrong with Obama so far? I'd say he's done a good job.


what exactly is it that hes done?
[/quote]

He outspent Bush in a half a term which took the former president two terms. He dragged his dick on Bp oil spill. He's not recalled the troops in Iraq, never shut down Gitzmo bay. He's not really taken seriously on the global scale. He's not overally passive but not aggressive either. He's pretty much the same leader that's black. He's not really anything new or policy wise a reform mam which I think a lot of us thought he was going to be. Oh well lesson learned and try something new.
[/quote]

He overspent Bush? Do you know how much the Iraq war has costed since Bush invaded?

RnR you may want to research your points before you post them, sometimes they are completely transparent.
[/quote]

Look it up man...I forgot I was a f*cking idiot and never do any research at all.. thanks for pointing out my obvious flaw in character..


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

Not an idiot at all, just a little overzealous


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

Might be Over zealous but I am also right


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

of course you are, because you read the newspaper once in a while.

The reality is, you probably have a very poor grasp on it, just like I do. I've read the papers, and the internet articles...reality is, I know most are bias and I also know that I don't have the educational resources and skills to pick apart any of the arguments.


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

I follow American politics like a hound. Fact is when 2012 hits Obama will have spent more than all the previous presidents combined it is looking like. That comes straight from my magic mirror too man! I read more in a day than most I know in a month. But don't take my mirrors word for it I also have a magic pixie to tell me these things!


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

RedneckR0nin said:


> Fact is when 2012 hits Obama will have spent more than all the previous presidents combined it is looking like.


that is correct sir. combined with $4/gallon gas, a horrible job market, ongoing wars, etc etc etc, and people still use bush as a scapegoat for all the problems. point is, i do my homework. there is a major psychology factor in a this. obama is doing a "good" job for one reason and one reason only to quite a lot of people - his name isnt bush. 
dont attempt to make a point about the money spent in iraq under bush when even the least informed of us knows that this president has been spending at a history-making level (and not in a good way)

thats the wonder of politics though. candidate A spends 100 billion and he ought to be thrown out, he's waisting our money! candidate B spends 500 billion and he's doing his best.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

You guys crack me up sometimes


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

10pointers said:


> You guys crack me up sometimes


lost for words? or just nothing to say in defense?


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

10pointers said:


> You guys crack me up sometimes


Maybe start reading a newspaper that was printed in the United States.....just a suggestion. Depends on how you look at the responsibility for spending on certain topics. But if you completely factor them out it is still overwhelming. Then again I could be wrong as my mirror says I can venture on Mars tomorrow!


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## TheSpaz13 (Apr 9, 2010)

Despite all the Obama blowing/hating were getting away from the fact that in order to get rid of him the republicans need a viable candidate...which they don't have...the majority of them would have kept both wars going (some would have gotten us involved more deeply in other conflicts) which would have kept the monetary situation the same or worse. Yes RP would probably get us out of the wars but he isn't realistically going to get the nominations...he's too controversial


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

Central said:


> You guys crack me up sometimes


Maybe start reading a newspaper that was printed in the United States.....just a suggestion. Depends on how you look at the responsibility for spending on certain topics. But if you completely factor them out it is still overwhelming. Then again I could be wrong as my mirror says I can venture on Mars tomorrow!
[/quote]

RnR, you would be shocked to find out that you are not the only one who has access to newspapers outside of Canada. You would also be shocked to know that economics and politics are not simple equations nor are they understandable from reading "more in one day than most people you know do in a week!". They take years of studying and contemplation. This is why people don't discuss politics in the real world, because everyone have an opinion but few can make a real argument for what they believe in. Instead, I am sure I will get blasted with people telling me they know what they are talking about and that I am stupid/cocky/know it all, and they still wont follow this up with any kind of unique individual thought.


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

TheSpaz13 said:


> You guys crack me up sometimes


Maybe start reading a newspaper that was printed in the United States.....just a suggestion. Depends on how you look at the responsibility for spending on certain topics. But if you completely factor them out it is still overwhelming. Then again I could be wrong as my mirror says I can venture on Mars tomorrow!
[/quote]

RnR, you would be shocked to find out that you are not the only one who has access to newspapers outside of Canada. You would also be shocked to know that economics and politics are not simple equations nor are they understandable from reading "more in one day than most people you know do in a week!". They take years of studying and contemplation. This is why people don't discuss politics in the real world, because everyone have an opinion but few can make a real argument for what they believe in. Instead, I am sure I will get blasted with people telling me they know what they are talking about and that I am stupid/cocky/know it all, and they still wont follow this up with any kind of unique individual thought.
[/quote]

My opinion is called C-Span man!

Again your the smartest person in this forum and I should know better than to voice a "opinion". I will go put my nose in the corner now!


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## TheSpaz13 (Apr 9, 2010)

Well the tea party is a republicans worst nightmare right now. They should be voting republican but they are just going to rob votes from the republicans and vote for a lunatic that just wants to cut every social program in the country and bomb half the middle east. End result, a fractured republican party fighting against an incumbent president with a good public rating


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

yeah, as far as i can predict i dont see the republicans rallying in a good way. not lately at least. the issue isnt so much finding someone who is worthy of the job or someone who can really make an impact with the people but whether the republican party will back him. regardless of what we want, no independent runner ever wins. its a republican vs democrat system here. 3rd parties are always wasted voted in this country.


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## TheSpaz13 (Apr 9, 2010)

Absolutely, I mean we can judge from most of my posts that I'm left leaning but honestly I'd like a third party independent over any democrat (as long as it isn't trump). Some republican ideas are good but I can't take look at the large republican picture and say that's where I want the country to go. We need out of 2 party systems


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

and 10pointers still never answered my question.RnR did.what has he done that is good?


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

muskielover1 said:


> and 10pointers still never answered my question.RnR did.what has he done that is good?


He is Black and that means social reform!


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

muskielover1 said:


> and 10pointers still never answered my question.RnR did.what has he done that is good?


We are still in Afghanistan, Iraq, and I still don't have free health care...Only thing he has done is give the green light to kill Bin Laden...He's a slightly less aggressive Bush. I think Paul would be a nice change from what we've had over the last 20 years, he can't f*ck up any worse than the previous 5 Presidents have...Will I vote for him? as of now I'm not sure.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

muskielover1 said:


> and 10pointers still never answered my question.RnR did.what has he done that is good?


Killed Obama and got the ball rolling on health care.


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

^yeah,he made the right call to go ahead with the operation to kill osama,but you think he deserves any more credit for it than that?HA!they were staking that place out years ago thanks to W.the intelligence was already in place before obama took office.i love how you said obama instead of osama







plus,what moron couldnt make THAT call????seriously.

and healthcare?one of the critical elemens that will help us go bankrupt faster?the law that will get repealed the very next republican hits the office?

so those are the 2,and only 2 things you can come up with that makes you say obama is doing a good job as president???even if they were legit and made sense,it would still be an extremely weak case for even a "fair" president.

and BTW,bush SR's approval was at %85 durring the gulf war and he lost the next election.obamas rating was %46 before osama,and %60 afterward...and we have a year and a half to go








throw in gas at a zillion bux a gallon and the economy still in the shitter,i just cant wait to say goodbye


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

10pointers said:


> and 10pointers still never answered my question.RnR did.what has he done that is good?


Killed Obama and got the ball rolling on health care.
[/quote]

Isn't that called suicide? Um does this mean Bidin is Pres. now?


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## Scrappy (Oct 21, 2004)

W didn't know the location of Osama. If he did, he'd have tried to polish the end of his sh*ty presidency with Osama's death.

How exactly is this healthcare bill going to bankrupt us? Especially compaired to the old system. Btw, you know I like links, not just your opinion.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

RP has some good ideas but will NEVER win when he has lame brain beliefs like eliminating the IRS, going back to the gold standard, and pulling out of every country. All good in theory, but too simplistic and will never work. Kinda like how obama thought it'd be easy to close Guantanamo.


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## RedneckR0nin (Nov 5, 2008)

diddye said:


> RP has some good ideas but will NEVER win when he has lame brain beliefs like eliminating the IRS, going back to the gold standard, and pulling out of every country. All good in theory, but too simplistic and will never work. *Kinda like how obama thought it'd be easy to close Guantanamo*.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Scrappy said:


> now he ranks as a mediocre/below average president in approval ratings.


Bullshit. His approval ratings are very high right now at 60%.

Wisco, I was on the Paul bandwagon until I started listening to him on the Alex Jones Show. Alex Jones is a conspiracy theorist who's WAY out there. Youtube "Ron Paul + Alex Jones" and you'll find several interviews that may disturb you. That show is one of my guilty pleasures and I listen to it often. But holy crap that guy is nuts, and to hear Ron Paul agree with him was enough for me to stop supporting him. In one of his interviews with Alex, he (Ron) states that he believes Obama was put in office as a puppet to usher us toward a world currency, and eventually a world government by the banksters.

But ignoring the Alex Jones stuff, I just feel that Ron's too much of a Ideologue.
[/quote]

Thats 3 days ago....its not 60 anymore, gallup shows its back down at 48% today

approval ratings

Btw, I think these ratings are lame


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## Scrappy (Oct 21, 2004)

.
Even without his latest ratings averaged in it's still not as bad as Central portrays.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

Scrappy said:


> W didn't know the location of Osama. If he did, he'd have tried to polish the end of his sh*ty presidency with Osama's death.
> 
> How exactly is this healthcare bill going to bankrupt us? Especially compaired to the old system. Btw, you know I like links, not just your opinion.


Don't bother asking for links or proof or facts on this board: people will turn their noes up at you and say "how dare you ask me to back up my point with logic and information!".

Afterall, these people read American newspapers and listen to pundit American radio, so you dare not question their opinions, you self-righteous pig!


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

I know for a fact Obama did nothing, Bill O'Reilly said so, so it has to be true.


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

Traveller said:


> I know for a fact Obama did nothing, Bill O'Reilly said so, so it has to be true.


Inform me then, what has changed domestically in the US? Other than pissing off the health care industry.


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

You need to address peoples needs first before you set out to help them achieve what they want.

His health care proposal was dismantled and rebuilt in order to let private health care in America operate. If people knew the extent of the inefficiency that American health care system operates at they would want it gone in a second, problem is these facts aren't allowed to enter the mainstream media and questioning the system is deemed unpatriotic. If anything sinks the US further into deficit it's military spending not health care, proper health care reforms would reduce the deficit because of how inefficient it is right now.Report on US health care by The Commonwealth Fund

With large multinationals deciding what is right and what is wrong, it's hard for any US president who takes office to change anything. The president can push for reform, but as soon as he does it's shut down and re-evaluated by private institutions representing big business to re write whatever it is to suit their interests. The US needs to separate business interest from the interest of the people, large corporations can't and should not talk for the whole population.


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## Scrappy (Oct 21, 2004)

Sorry, I'm too lazy to search, but what's RP's stance on healthcare?


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)




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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

Scrappy said:


> W didn't know the location of Osama. If he did, he'd have tried to polish the end of his sh*ty presidency with Osama's death.
> 
> How exactly is this healthcare bill going to bankrupt us? Especially compaired to the old system. Btw, you know I like links, not just your opinion.


i didnt say W knew his location now did i?i said it was "because"of W.hw got the *ball rolling* on terrorism for obama.you cant tell me the bush administration didnt do %90 of the grunt work(and more importaintly our soldiers)of that operation.people act like obama just waltzed in and was SOOOO good he just sniffed out osama all by himself.

i also said it would "help"it to bankrupt us.why?why would you need a graph or a chart to tell you that were 14 trillion in debt and we shouldnt tack on another trillion for healthcare when theres no money to do so,another stimulous package,ect,ect...

you cant spend money you dont have.i cant.if i was 14 trillion in the hole,i damn sure wouldnt be living within my means now would i?

obama is on track to spend more than any other previous administrations combined,and already outspent W in 2 years as opposed to 8.

pretty soon this healthcare isnt going to mean sh*t if the countries stop dealing with us and our dollar is sh*t because of out of control inflation....then youll be looking for breadcrumbs to survive let alone free healthcare.

i do agree with you tho scrap.RP says some off the wall sh*t,and im NOT a supporter.


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## TheSpaz13 (Apr 9, 2010)

Muskie, your ability to defy logic boggles my mind.

Less then a week ago you started a thread about your cluster headaches and inability to so see a doctor because your uninsured yet you would rather spend money we don't have on other counties then our own.

And I thnk it's funny that Sean Hannity said within the last 3 days that bush was responsible for whacking bin laden and now your saying it. The bush "intelligence" operation was so good that he invaded 2 countries that bin Ladin wasn't in and set some of the worse precedents this country has seen, and now your going to say he did the leg work? Yea he must have felt bad for Obama so bush just let him have this one...two years later...

You make no logical sense at all


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

and,of course,10pointers gave 2 lame examples of why obama is a good president...nd i said,even if those 2 were truely good(whitch they are not)how does that constitute a good prsidency?wanna weigh the good things and bad things?you dodge the question with some liberal banter with traveller.good job









than ZO said:what has he done BESIDES piss off the healthcare industry....wheres that answer?

if you split up all the money in the USA eaqualy between the 300 million,we would each get 27,000.whop de do!whos gonna do WHAT with that?how can anyone start a buisness with that?oh.ill get a loan with no credit,defunct on it and put the nation into debt again.like it or not,big brother pays your paycheck and puts food on your table...not the middle class.


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)

Don't even bother spaz, just sit back and laugh.


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

TheSpaz13 said:


> Muskie, your ability to defy logic boggles my mind.
> 
> Less then a week ago you started a thread about your cluster headaches and inability to so see a doctor because your uninsured yet you would rather spend money we don't have on other counties then our own.
> 
> ...


where does this same line keep comming from?where in any statement do i come off illogical?point it out?you always say it,but thats all you say.
yeah,i dont have insurance ATM.i have to work for it and in a couple months it kicks in.no problem.i dont want everyone else paying for my medical bills and i damn sure aint paying for everyone elses....ESPECIALY since were in debt and should worry about getting out of the hole before we start spending MORE money we dont have.<if that dont make sense to you,then youre in trouble in life.

and im pretty sure there was a thing called tora bora where we flushed osama out and thats when he fled to pakistan...so invade 2 countries osama wasnt in???he was in afganistan and pakistan.nobody ever said he was in iraq either.

there,i answered your questions logicaly.now,point out where there was no logic.


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)




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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

Traveller said:


> Don't even bother spaz, just sit back and laugh.

















i know,im so dumb.i should just flee the country and watch it blow up in the rear veiw mirror.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

muskie I usually defend you on this board, but this time...











Traveller said:


>


That was hilarious!


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)

Not dumb, some people say your just ignorant.


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

Traveller said:


>


gee,i bet i can go on youtube and find the same damn thing about every other cable news station.i could probly pull it from an unbiased source UNLIKE YOU.
does everyone forget that FOX news is the most watched cable news station for over 10 years?they BLOW AWAY all others in veiwers.dosent that say anything?


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)

Do it.


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

10pointers said:


>


That was hilarious!
[/quote]
defend me?when?and what does that 7 year old video have to do with me?ok,ill go pull up a video of CNN,MSNBC,ect spinning sh*t.that video is taken out of context.some people say...what are they gonna do?site every source as they give an interveiw?they cant talk amongst their party members and others outside the party without having to quote everyone?play the rest of the interveiws instead of just people saying a catch phrase.

10,youre easily amused.


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)

Journalism is about citing sources.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

Traveller said:


> Journalism is about citing sources.


Dont bring up sources in the Lounge, it`s a sore subject with some...


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)




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## Guest (May 15, 2011)

So cnn telling the truth compares to fox lying?


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

lol there are soooo many olberman ones.


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)

Faux news ftw.


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

[/quote]
Dont bring up sources in the Lounge, it`s a sore subject with some...
[/quote]
do you ever say anything except sh*t like that?i wanna go find all your posts that say the same crap and fill up pages.


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## TheSpaz13 (Apr 9, 2010)

Muskie it has nothing to do with how much we spend but where we spend. You would rather us spend trillions on wars with no end while you yourself can't see a doctor for a painful medical condition...if that's your idea of logic then you are in trouble

Torah Bora? The opening of the Afghan war? What does that have to do with anything? If I remember correctly (after all it was a decade ago) then that was the operation that supposedly flushed out bin laden to Pakistan while we stayed in Afghanistan "hunting" him for the next 10 years? I don't see where your going with this and I don't know how your going to link a 10 year old battle with obama ordering a hit on bin laden in a different country 2weeks ago...but please, go ahead.


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

people must like liars,cuz fox is #1.

yeah,i know...cnn never lies or is biased.what was i thinking.

ill move along for now.i have to hang out with someone with more brains than either of your 2 man gang....my 10 year old son.tata.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

muskie I think you should do it, but maybe make an arguement worth listening to in this thread first so that the last 3 pages can serve some kind of purpose or end.


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## TheSpaz13 (Apr 9, 2010)

And just so it's said


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)

10 year old son? Remarkable seeing that your interest on a fish forum is vagina, thought people matured after having kids especially when watching right wing media. I've now seen it all.

Being number 1 doesn't mean it's the best, I think Hitler was number one at one point, but what would I know, I'm not as informed as the average fox news viewer.

Ron Paul for US president


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

you know its funny, for people that hate fox news, you guys sure watch a lot of it. If you think its propaganda, STOP WATCHING IT! Its people like you that keep it running by supporting it. News is biased so even if you dont agree with Fox, you use it to balance both sides like MSNBC. You listen to both and you make your own judgement.


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

Traveller said:


> 10 year old son? Remarkable seeing that your interest on a fish forum is vagina, thought people matured after having kids especially when watching right wing media. I've now seen it all.


thats one of the dumbest things ive ever heard.wtf does that have to do with anything?i have a son,so i cant put "vagina"in my interests?last time i checked,my son isnt on this forum,and also the last time i checked one dosent stop liking vagina after you have a kid.grab at more starws.wow...what a mindblowing point!im immature!i MUST CHANGE MY INTERESTS ON P-FURY IMMEDIATELY!!!


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

I'd much rather pay for healthcare for everyone in this country than 2 trillion dollars worth of infrastructure in a shithole country like iraq. Unfortunately, I didn't have a choice, because faux,as you say, is the most watched news station, and all it's ignoramus viewers voted a texas oil hick in who couldn't even manage a baseball team,let alone run a country. Now me and my kids are strapped with the bill for these idiotic,never ending wars. It actually bithers me that people like you would rather help a country on the other side of the world than your own. A healthcare subsidy for everyone in the US would be soooo much more worth it, since then I wouldn't have to hear you bitch about headaches. A healthy nation is a prosperous one...but no, we'd rather fight the never ending badguy, and claim a noble mission because we're building schools and hospitals over seas.

news flash,we need a ton of infrastructure here in america! It's funny how people have a huge problem with the recovery and reinvestment act, but no issue spending the same money on roads and bridges in iraq. Excuse me, but that's f*cking unamerican.


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## TheSpaz13 (Apr 9, 2010)

Thanks R1, pretty much summed up all of what Ive been saying in every politically fueled thread for the past 6 months...


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## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer (Aug 22, 2006)

I love muskie like a sister Traveller BACK OFF.

BTW Ron Paul in the anti-christ k? Hes going to win with his sense of logic and old grampa charm but once hes in he will decieve us and start the NEW WORLD ORDER. Hes delivered 4000 babies? So has CuzIsaidSo's gf's p*ssy.


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)




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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

r1dermon said:


> I'd much rather pay for healthcare for everyone in this country than 2 trillion dollars worth of infrastructure in a shithole country like iraq. Unfortunately, I didn't have a choice, because faux,as you say, is the most watched news station, and all it's ignoramus viewers voted a texas oil hick in who couldn't even manage a baseball team,let alone run a country. Now me and my kids are strapped with the bill for these idiotic,never ending wars. It actually bithers me that people like you would rather help a country on the other side of the world than your own. A healthcare subsidy for everyone in the US would be soooo much more worth it, since then I wouldn't have to hear you bitch about headaches. A healthy nation is a prosperous one...but no, we'd rather fight the never ending badguy, and claim a noble mission because we're building schools and hospitals over seas.
> 
> news flash,we need a ton of infrastructure here in america! It's funny how people have a huge problem with the recovery and reinvestment act, but no issue spending the same money on roads and bridges in iraq. Excuse me, but that's f*cking unamerican.


Newsflash. All the money we spent in Iraq is a speck of dust compared to our economic woes. Blaming our problems on the war is plain wrong. Sure, we could use it elsewhere but if you think Bush is to blame for our problems then look again. Stop blaming W for everything because for the last 3 years another person was president. Where was the "hope" and "change" that was promised? oh thats right, just pass the buck.


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

oh my bad man...

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/US/M

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CO/M

snowballs get larger as they roll down hill, and they dont suddenly stop because you hire a black guy to run the show. notice a trend in those charts? i certainly do.

oh, and i will continue to blame bush for many problems wrong in this world, from a 2 trillion dollar war which gained us ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...it's almost like, we should've just bought 2 trillion dollars worth of gasoline, and lit it on fire and watched it burn...because that's what we did with that money...of course, many people have died because of it...but that's whatever...god forbid we do anything for the lowlife inner city degenerates in this country, who we wont give a dime to for their own sake...no, better idea is to give no bid contracts to companies that our elected officials have stakes in, pay them ridiculous amounts of money to rebuild a nation that we destroyed in the first place, and rape the american tax payer silently. no, we're going to sit around in our confederate flag skidmarked boxer shorts with a red white and blue in one hand, and a gun in the other, and we're going to say f*ck the poor people. we dont want to help them. i dont want to pay for public schools because i dont have any kids, but i'll pay billions of dollars in public money so that the iraqi's can have schools, i dont want to pay for your healthcare, because i'd RATHER pay for a bunch of people in IRAQ who i dont even know, whom im afraid of...so afraid in-fact, that i'll let my own government molest me in order to get on an airplane, because im afraid some arab is going to sneak a bomb on board and kill me...then i'll assault their religion because they have a violent religion, and my religion preaches peace. and then i'll go out claim that the US was founded on christian principles, and so everyone should believe in god, and should pledge allegiance to a country "under god". then we should all go out and salute anyone in the army and say "thank you" to them, and oh, im going to vote for this person because she's "hawt", or because they're not black...this is what america has become my friend...maybe you're out of touch, and i know you're not like that, but there are a LOT of americans who are like that, and i deal with them every f*cking day, and it makes me sick to my stomach to think that corporate interests come before individual rights.

if you take all that sh*t i just spouted off and insert it into an overweight alcoholic's mouth, who happens to be wearing deer blood soaked overalls with a flannel shirt underneath sporting a greasy mullet and a cincinatti reds hat from the 80's while standing in the parkinglot of taladega speedway next to his matted junkyard dog and 7 inbred kids, you'll get a good idea of your average faux news viewer/voter. if that isn't a scary thought, then you're dangerously close to being one of them.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

but wait. I thought you said we are in iraq for their oil? All I see are excuses from a liberal who promised he knew what it takes to stop the snowball. When we find out this president added nitro to the snowball, its still W's fault. Ok.

Oh, when you describe the avg faux news viewer, I saw am image of you minus the 7 kids with a boston cap.


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## Guest (May 16, 2011)

r1dermon,


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

obama did this...obama did that...

hey man, at least i can tell you where bush fucked up...you dont even mention any obama policy that has added "nitro" to the snowball. you just say he did, as if some higher power (faux) is telling you its the truth. why dont you start citing sources or providing an iota of information with your claims...then at least you'd be a bit more credible.

dont start with the personal insults.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

How long have I been on this site adding sources? Hasn't healthcare(one big nitro) been one of the issues already we've been crying about regarding Obama? How about Obama's reluctance to rein in illegal immigration(both this admin and bush) which is a major drain on our economy in terms of healthcare, providing education for anchor babies, prisons($10.5 billion in California alone per year).

Cost of illegals in california

Why are unemployment, housing prices, oil prices, public handouts, still so high? What about Obama's mismanagement of BP, Libya, Egypt, Israel, and the whole middle east as a whole? We still dont know his stance in that area. As happy as I am for him taking out Osama, it was the collective intelligence community as a whole that did it. He tries to politicize it and take credit only then to have 10 different versions of what happened. Obama cries about Bush's offshore drilling policies then in the last couple days proposes opening the Atlantic shores as well as Alaska for drilling. Why hasn't Obama reined in corporate greed like he campaigned? He cried about Bush's stances on free speech and the patriot act-yep still there. Why does he allow Mexico and its gang run country dictate our policies? Why are we bailing out every sector of the economy because they are "too big" to fail? Sorry but if you believe in Ron Paul, most of Obamas policies contradict them.


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

listen, i never said obama was an angel, but dont make it seem like bush was just a bad leader, and obama is the real problem, because that's just blatant bullshit.

healthcare helps the collective society of this country. we invest in healthcare, the money stays here, because everybody is healthy. it provides a return on investment. that's the logic behind it. healthier people spend less time out of work, they spend less on drugs and medication, and they live happier lives, which means more productive lives. that is an investment in the future as far as im concerned, and it's 10 year cost is half of what iraq has cost us.

the OIL in iraq has been divied up by the oil companies and will be sold by OPEC at an inflated price. good for them. what i dont get is, why the f*ck havent we been investing our money into solar power? as poor and inefficient as it is, its still much better than oil, which is manipulated by our enemies! (opec...the countries we're fighting against based on "terror").

saying ron pauls policies contradict obamas isn't exactly ground breaking news...they contradict probably every president's policies in the 20th century. one thing you have to realize though, because i know you were probably one of the people complaining about the "recovery and reinvestment act" to rebuild the highway system...D Eisenhower created the highway system, and the economy skyrocketed because of it. that did SOOO much to build this country into a superpower, and the investment will pay dividends in spurred economic activity. imagine if we could cut the average commute by 30%? widening the highways or creating alternate routes to major metropolitan areas...the economic gains to something like that would be massive. people like to only focus on the initial price tag, but they dont take into account the eventual return.

obama hasn't been what people thought he'd be, and honestly, never could've been that guy. nobody could've turned the economy around on a dime. too much has been lost in this country. companies have been given incentives to leave this country. they dont pledge any allegiance like you do, except to the dollar. if they can make more money in china, they'll go. unfortunately, silly americans keep buying their sh*t. im not making excuses though, i admit that obama hasn't been great. but he's been as good as he could've been given the circumstances. what would mccain do differently? that was our option. his healthcare plan was very similar to obamas...how about mitt romney? he's got the same mandate for everyone to have healthcare...i dont get who the republicans are going to put in thats SOOOOO much better than obama?

the patriot act will be repealed shortly.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

I never backed bush 100% and I am not against obama 100%. People always cry about how bad bush was when 3 years into Obamas presidency, we realize that Bush was also dealt a bad hand. I believe Obama is trying his hardest and wants the best for his country. It just bugs me when Obama makes excuses for "inheriting" this problem when he promised to fix it. True, he walked into it but it doesn't excuse the fact that hes the current President in charge of improving our situation. But when liberals cry stupid crap like everything is bush's fault, its utter stupidity. Change isn't as easy as electing a new person so don't preach it.

I dont like the healthcare situation because Obama's response was "well, its better than what it was". Is that the answer? Instead of rushing it why dont we fix the root of the problem(ie tort reform, illegals)?

Solar isn't feasible because even if solar is maxed out, it will only be enough to run a small small percentage of our needs.

Actually, I dont believe I've ever commented on the recovery and reinvestment act...nor do I really have an opinion.

Lastly, I dont like mccain one bit. I only supported him as the lesser of two evils. I was a huckabee guy last election. My #2 was Romney. After that, i really didn't care.


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

diddye said:


> I never backed bush 100% and I am not against obama 100%. People always cry about how bad bush was when 3 years into Obamas presidency, we realize that Bush was also dealt a bad hand. I believe Obama is trying his hardest and wants the best for his country. It just bugs me when Obama makes excuses for "inheriting" this problem when he promised to fix it. True, he walked into it but it doesn't excuse the fact that hes the current President in charge of improving our situation. But when liberals cry stupid crap like everything is bush's fault, its utter stupidity. Change isn't as easy as electing a new person so don't preach it.
> 
> I dont like the healthcare situation because Obama's response was "well, its better than what it was". Is that the answer? Instead of rushing it why dont we fix the root of the problem(ie tort reform, illegals)?
> 
> ...


please cite your source...everything i've read about solar has pointed to the possibility that america could easily produce 5x its energy needs for the next 50 years and possibly even further, just off of solar energy ALONE and using current technologies.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

How about you cite your sources that say we can(why do i seem to be the one always citing things)? If obama wants to increase our use of clean renewables by 80% by 2035, that is proof that solar alone isn't enough(includes, wind, solar, nuclear, etc) The fact alone that solar energy is currently subsidized by the gov't is proof that it is still a developing technology. If it is a economically viable option(at its current standings), solar would have taken off by now. Anyhow, we're getting offtopic.

Solar


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## Guest (May 16, 2011)




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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

Traveller said:


> View attachment 201945


is that a serious picture, egypt is on the other side in africa


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## Guest (May 16, 2011)

Is it?
I posted that picture because I'm a fox news supporter, didn't realise my beloved news source has no understanding of geography. I blame the liberals.


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

well we all know americans cant find there own country on a map so i dont expect them to be able to have the middle east down









i kid i kid


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

My honest opinion....CNN is about the closest you'll get to "neutral" news, then Fox, then the bottom of the barrel is MSNBC....sometimes I watch MSNBC for laughs.
Anyone know if there's an official campaign website up yet? Haven't been able to find one.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

Piranha Dan said:


> My honest opinion....*CNN is about the closest you'll get to "neutral" news, then Fox*, then the bottom of the barrel is MSNBC....sometimes I watch MSNBC for laughs.
> Anyone know if there's an official campaign website up yet? Haven't been able to find one.


I may not be smart or great in any way, but I am glad I will not spend my life on earth being blind.


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

Scrappy said:


> now he ranks as a mediocre/below average president in approval ratings.


Bullshit. His approval ratings are very high right now at 60%.

Wisco, I was on the Paul bandwagon until I started listening to him on the Alex Jones Show. Alex Jones is a conspiracy theorist who's WAY out there. Youtube "Ron Paul + Alex Jones" and you'll find several interviews that may disturb you. That show is one of my guilty pleasures and I listen to it often. But holy crap that guy is nuts, and to hear Ron Paul agree with him was enough for me to stop supporting him. In one of his interviews with Alex, he (Ron) states that he believes Obama was put in office as a puppet to usher us toward a world currency, and eventually a world government by the banksters.

But ignoring the Alex Jones stuff, I just feel that Ron's too much of a Ideologue.
[/quote]

Scrappy- When Ron Paul is on the Alex Jones show he is usually talking about important issues: FED Policy, destruction of civil liberties, govt. bureau's writing laws, wars without declaration, and overall usurpation of the constitutional boundaries. He doesn't spend his time on that show talking about HAARP, Fluoride in the water, or '9/11 was an inside job.' So, to discount RP and his campaign simply bc he does a piece on the AJ show now and again isn't an intellectually sound premise. Honorable Judge Napolitano goes on the AJ show to talk about the government destroying our rights, taking us into non-stop wars, and ruining our currency. These are all important issues and shouldn't be drown out or marginalized bc of the medium which the information is purveyed upon.

Ron Paul opposes the drug war, Obama favors it. Ron Paul opposed the Patriot Act, Obama supports it. Ron Paul wants to eliminate the income tax, Obama wants more tax revenues. Ron Paul wants freedom of choice in medicine and school, while Obama favors DC bureaucrats telling us what medicine and education 'are.' Ron Paul opposes gun control, Obama supports it. Ron Paul opposed the 3 illegal wars we're engaged in, Obama is in favor. Ron Paul favors the Austrian School of Free Market Economics while Obama is still trying to kick start his horse, with the failed policy of Keynesian economics (See F.A. Hayek v Keynes). To me the choice is very simple. In the face of government control or liberty, I shall choose liberty.

Also, some on the left are scared, as they have heard 'Ron Paul wants to end social security and medicare.' Which is not true. Ron Paul has said his philosophy of how government should function would mean no SS or medicare, however he realizes that is not practical. His method of cutting spending would be to cut all of our foreign adventures overseas, bring our troops home from God knows how many bases (I think 700+ world wide), and we would still take care of those who are on SS and medicare. He has made it crystal clear that he would cut foreign aid and military spending and not take healthcare away from the sick and poor.

If SS and medicare are still available for democrats, and RP cuts loads of military spending and suspends the income tax, how much better could it get for democrats? No wars, no income tax, our civil liberties restored....I would think democrats would be jumping at a real change. The only ppl who hate Ron Paul are the rhino neo-cons and obamazombies.

Question for Diddy: I am quite certain you are conservative, so why would you say getting rid of the income tax and IRS is a 'crazy' idea? I would think, after having so many tax dollars go to support those on welfare, you would jump at the notion of a suspended income tax









Piranha Dan: here is a link to RP's 2012 YT channel http://www.youtube.com/user/ronpaul


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

wisco_pygo said:


> now he ranks as a mediocre/below average president in approval ratings.


Bullshit. His approval ratings are very high right now at 60%.

Wisco, I was on the Paul bandwagon until I started listening to him on the Alex Jones Show. Alex Jones is a conspiracy theorist who's WAY out there. Youtube "Ron Paul + Alex Jones" and you'll find several interviews that may disturb you. That show is one of my guilty pleasures and I listen to it often. But holy crap that guy is nuts, and to hear Ron Paul agree with him was enough for me to stop supporting him. In one of his interviews with Alex, he (Ron) states that he believes Obama was put in office as a puppet to usher us toward a world currency, and eventually a world government by the banksters.

But ignoring the Alex Jones stuff, I just feel that Ron's too much of a Ideologue.
[/quote]

Scrappy- When Ron Paul is on the Alex Jones show he is usually talking about important issues: FED Policy, destruction of civil liberties, govt. bureau's writing laws, wars without declaration, and overall usurpation of the constitutional boundaries. He doesn't spend his time on that show talking about HAARP, Fluoride in the water, or '9/11 was an inside job.' So, to discount RP and his campaign simply bc he does a piece on the AJ show now and again isn't an intellectually sound premise. Honorable Judge Napolitano goes on the AJ show to talk about the government destroying our rights, taking us into non-stop wars, and ruining our currency. These are all important issues and shouldn't be drown out or marginalized bc of the medium which the information is purveyed upon.

Ron Paul opposes the drug war, Obama favors it. Ron Paul opposed the Patriot Act, Obama supports it. Ron Paul wants to eliminate the income tax, Obama wants more tax revenues. Ron Paul wants freedom of choice in medicine and school, while Obama favors DC bureaucrats telling us what medicine and education 'are.' Ron Paul opposes gun control, Obama supports it. Ron Paul opposed the 3 illegal wars we're engaged in, Obama is in favor. Ron Paul favors the Austrian School of Free Market Economics while Obama is still trying to kick start his horse, with the failed policy of Keynesian economics (See F.A. Hayek v Keynes). To me the choice is very simple. In the face of government control or liberty, I shall choose liberty.

Also, some on the left are scared, as they have heard 'Ron Paul wants to end social security and medicare.' Which is not true. Ron Paul has said his philosophy of how government should function would mean no SS or medicare, however he realizes that is not practical. His method of cutting spending would be to cut all of our foreign adventures overseas, bring our troops home from God knows how many bases (I think 700+ world wide), and we would still take care of those who are on SS and medicare. He has made it crystal clear that he would cut foreign aid and military spending and not take healthcare away from the sick and poor.

*If SS and medicare are still available for democrats, and RP cuts loads of military spending and suspends the income tax, how much better could it get for democrats? No wars, no income tax, our civil liberties restored....I would think democrats would be jumping at a real change. The only ppl who hate Ron Paul are the rhino neo-cons and obamazombies. *

Question for Diddy: I am quite certain you are conservative, so why would you say getting rid of the income tax and IRS is a 'crazy' idea? I would think, after having so many tax dollars go to support those on welfare, you would jump at the notion of a suspended income tax









Piranha Dan: here is a link to RP's 2012 YT channel http://www.youtube.com/user/ronpaul





[/quote]

i for one, have seen more positives than negatives from ron paul. as an obama supporter, i know i draw a lot of flak and ire from the so called "traditional" conservative base...but the fact is, im conservative on foreign affairs and government expansion. im pro PEOPLE. i believe the people aren't getting what we're paying for, for several reasons, and i think ron paul would have a solid answer for my concerns.

no company, foreign or domestic, but ESPECIALLY foreign, should be "entitled" (it's the entitlement generation you know) to almost half a billion dollars in state tax money simply for setting up shop. that's absolutely ludacris. yet, that's exactly what georgia did to lure in a "kia" plant. now, that might sound great, ohhh it creates 20,000+ jobs....but think about it this way, how about every tax payer in georgia that lives near that plant, who's property taxes just went up, even though they didn't benefit from the plant, and in-fact, they were monetarily harmed by it. best part is, that's sponsored by the STATE. these are the people who are to be working on YOUR behalf. wtfsauce? alabama, ohio, for fucks sake, every state to a degree has given out bigtime corporate subsidies. what would ron paul do to shrink those down to ZERO? because truthfully, the only way i'll be happy is if corporate subsidy totals from taxpayer money pools amounts to ZERO.


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

In true free market economics there are no subsidies. Companies rise and fall based on merit and consumer confidence. You can't get 'big business' without big government helping them reach said status. The reason we have multi-nationals choking off ordinary Americans is bc of the regulatory bodies put in front of them by neo-cons and neo-liberal fascists.

If I wanted to open up a hardware store where I live I would fight the government on local building permits, the financial sector with loans, insurance and what not, but if Wal-Mart rolls into town, no worries, here is a multi-million dollar subsidy. Thats chrony capitalism, aka fascism. Even Lenin said, "Fascism is capitalism is decay."


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoNIq0_NVAU[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF4Bx9N_-W4[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9HMrhMZufU[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2riHybtUGc

Some interviews conducted the day he announced his candidacy.


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## Guest (May 17, 2011)

Sarah palin 15%? Donald Trump 12%?
Damn people are dumb. . .


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

Trump just announced he's not running anymore. Apparently the Donald didn't want too many people looking too closely at his finances.








Palin? f*ck man.....Caribou Barbie or Obama.....that's like having to vote wheather you want to be raped in the ass with a broomhandle or have broken glass shoved up your urethra....


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Wisco, I'm against the tax thing because its basically unrealistic. I'm for limited gov't not no gov't. I still believe theres a need for public works and welfare for those that REALLY need it. We need schools, roads, an army, etc. Its true I'm a conservative but i'm not as far right as many here believe. For one, the tax system supports a huge cottage industry that wont get abolished simply because of politics. It ain't gonna happen. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant because like they say "there are only 2 things certain in life-death and taxes". If you think lobbying runs our officials, who will support no IRS?



Piranha Dan said:


> Trump just announced he's not running anymore. Apparently the Donald didn't want too many people looking too closely at his finances.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Trump only declined because he saw how embarrassed he'd be when seeing current polls. Palin's become too overexposed and weird. Hey, did anybody hear what Osama said about Biden? He told his minions not to worry about biden because if Obama died and Biden became president, Biden would run the country into the ground himself lol. Thats how little he thought of our VP and sadly I agree.


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## Leroy Brown (Apr 15, 2011)

I wont comment to much but the constitution does not allow for many things republicans and democrats pull out of there magical hats. I personal would rather work for a rich person and feed and cloth myself. Oh yah pay for my doctor bills too. Charity is a people thing not an oversized apparatus i like to call goverment. When government provides all things they perceive you need it is called socialism. Socialism starts out awesome until the money runs out. I am pretty sure our freedoms go south along with the money too. When did we as a people start relying on the government for our survival.

We the people not we the weak supported by the government


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

Piranha Dan said:


> Trump just announced he's not running anymore. Apparently the Donald didn't want too many people looking too closely at his finances.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sucks having only two parties you end up with one extreme or the other


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

diddye said:


> Trump just announced he's not running anymore. Apparently the Donald didn't want too many people looking too closely at his finances.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Trump only declined because he saw how embarrassed he'd be when seeing current polls. Palin's become too overexposed and weird. Hey, did anybody hear what Osama said about Biden? He told his minions not to worry about biden because if Obama died and Biden became president, Biden would run the country into the ground himself lol. Thats how little he thought of our VP and sadly I agree.
[/quote]

Our congress collected taxes for quite a long time with no IRS or income tax. I am a small government conservative as well. We need a national defense, roads, bridges, ect, but those areas of the nations general welfare can all be achieved without the IRS and without an income tax.

If we simply stop militarizing around the world, scaled back entitlements, and got rid of so many unnecessary departments (energy, homeland sec, education, ect) we'd be very sound financially. If we had a common sense plan to government, I bet we could get by on a 10% national income tax. With that, capital gains, and property taxes this government should be able to fund itself. Right now, they take in around $200 billion/month and can't pay the bills....absolute absurdity.

We need to repeal the 16th amendment and get back to "all direct taxes levied by congress shall be apportioned." Which his how the founders expressed taxation should be implemented.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Lets _assume_ Ron paul wins. Do you really think the republicans and democrats would support abolished all those depts? You have the lobbying by big corporations for conservaties, union members for democrats, and both of them crying about loss of jobs. How many state employees would be affected? Remember, the president alone can't change things himself. There is way too much $ at stake for that to even happen. No point wishing for a nonexistent pot of gold.


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

diddye said:


> Lets _assume_ Ron paul wins. Do you really think the republicans and democrats would support abolished all those depts? You have the lobbying by big corporations for conservaties, union members for democrats, and both of them crying about loss of jobs. How many state employees would be affected? Remember, the president alone can't change things himself. There is way too much $ at stake for that to even happen. No point wishing for a nonexistent pot of gold.


greatest post of all time?

fact is, it doesn't matter who's elected...nothing will change.


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

diddye said:


> Lets _assume_ Ron paul wins. Do you really think the republicans and democrats would support abolished all those depts? You have the lobbying by big corporations for conservaties, union members for democrats, and both of them crying about loss of jobs. How many state employees would be affected? Remember, the president alone can't change things himself. There is way too much $ at stake for that to even happen. No point wishing for a nonexistent pot of gold.


Thing is, not only is the stuff he believes in good, it sounds good to your average dumbass. The people will get behind it and support it. The house and senate found out in 2010 what ignoring the will of the people gets you......


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

Lets not forget, Ron Paul started the modern tea party movement back in 2007. All of the status-quo people attached to it now are just jumping on the bandwagon. The neo-cons got absolutely destroyed in 2008, what makes them think that with the same policies and same talking heads, they would have any momentum? I'm sick of the "Johnny come lately's" in the tea party- Palin, Gingrich, Bachmann, Lou Dobbs, Hannity....these are all people whose ideas were rejected, and the reason why Obama was elected in '08, so how could anyone on the right imagine they are going to give Obama a serious run for the White house in 2012?






I guess I would like to remain an optimist on the short-run, as far as changing the direction of our Country. Do you guys realize that revolutionary times such as now come across every 4 or 5 generation?. We truly live in a unique era in American history. My take is that if we see our 'leaders' taking our country away its founding principles, we all have to sacrifice and make a concerted effort to bring it back where it ought to be. Democrats have to give up on their welfare state, neo-cons have to give up being the policemen of the world, destroying civil liberties, and telling people what they can do with their own bodies.

One thing is for certain, RP will have a harder time getting the (R) nomination than beating Obama in the general election. We (conservatives) need independents, progressives, and democrats who support Ron Paul to register as republicans for the primaries, so we can ensure the neo-cons do not beat Ron Paul. Rest assured, if Mitt Romney or any of the other status quo candidates get the (R) nomination, that is a guaranteed victory for Obama, and 4 more years of welfare, non-stop unconstitutional wars, the drug war, and the overall economic demise of this nation.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Well, i think my favorite so far is romney.


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

diddye said:


> Well, i think my favorite so far is romney.


i would have to agree.i need to hear more from pawlenty though.still early in the game.i think the rest should drop out now so those 2 can work their magic.


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

Jeepers, something tells me if Fox News told you guys the Jolly Green Giant was the front runner, he'd be leading in the next poll. Mitt has polygamy in his family history, and he implemented government healthcare while Governor in MA. Sounds pretty 'conservative' to me









In reality, this is what is happening to the Republican party


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

geez.why is it always "fox news"this and "fox news"that?damn you guys,get over it already.

i have conservative veiws.i dont agree with alot of things that ALOT of the sh*t the contributors say(and people forget,fox news is full of democratic strategists as well)so just f*cking get a life already.

just because i potray my conservative veiws means i automatically agree with every word everyone says that works for fox???there are debates on there all the time.how could one possibly agree with all of them.dosent make sense so quit playing the fox news card already.


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

Muskie, whats wrong with Ron Paul? He's the most conservative member of the congress- pro-life, pro-constitution, he's against obamacare, and nobody in the congress has voted against more tax and spending increases than he has. Why do conservatives toss him aside?


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

hes a liberetarian,and a conspiracy theorist for one,and two.


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

Conspiracy Theorist on what? He's openly said he's not 9/11 truther.

You do realize, libertarians make up a large portion of the republican party, right?

Do you hear the world "revolution" being associated with Mitt Romney or Herman Cain?

I give you props for being in the political debate, but I'm telling you right now, if Romney is the candidate, Obama will be re-elected. I'm calling it right now, 1.5 years before the election


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Romney already said he made a mistake about his healthcare stance....and how can you condemn him b/c his great grandfather had more than 1 wife? Its not like Mitt does. Another thing is that Ron paul wont win b/c he wont get the womens votes. Many women dont follow politics and when they vote, they'll vote for the "handsome" person if they are on the fence. Lets admit it, Ron Paul looks like a weirdo and talks funny.


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

yes i do know the liberetarians do make up alot(in some form of another)

Student: So I just wanted to say, you know, we've talked to Dennis Kucinich and he says that he's willing to, you know, investigate it. He would advocate for a new investigation.
Paul: Into 9/11?
Student: Yeah, into 9/11. I mean, if it was Dennis Kucinich and you, there'd be congressional support. You know what I mean? So you wouldn't be the only one.
Paul: It'd be bipartisan, too. And I've worked with Dennis a lot on a lot of these issues.
Student: So I mean, would you advocate for a new investigation into 9/11?
Paul: Yes, I think we have to look at the details of it.

and i DONT disagree with the last statement you made,but look at what obama did last time....came out of nowhere,so i can hope.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

I'm telling you now, Ron paul is a weaker candidate than Romney. Remember, most of america are moderate. Libertarians are pretty extreme.


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

Just because RP supports a new investigation into 9/11 does not classify him as a conspiracy theorist.

If one takes an objective look at how the investigation was conducted, from Phillip Zelikow (sp) to witholding information, to only asking 20% of the questions the 9/11 victims families had, its clear to see the investigation was compromised.

"9/11 Press for Truth" is a great documentary, that has *nothing *to do with any conspiracy theory, and it clearly shows all the mishaps and short falls of the investigation, whether deliberate or not.








diddye said:


> I'm telling you now, Ron paul is a weaker candidate than Romney. Remember, most of america are moderate. Libertarians are pretty extreme.


Diddy, how is Mitt going to motivate the republican base (who is largely against Obamacare) when he, himself implemented government healthcare. Ron Paul is extreme, but we need a conservative with those kind of views to fix the problems this country has. Obama will have the same policy has Romney, there will be no difference.


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

because the GOP isnt worried about him doing that.they wont support any of that sh*t.(socialized healthcare)


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

Why not pick someone with consistent views? If Romney was for healthcare before, the only reason he is against is now, is for purposes of being elected. We've had enough 'flip-floppers.' Romney also used to be Pro-choice, another issue that is going to set him back with social conservatives.

Ron Paul has forgotten more about economics and the constitution than Romney could ever dream to know. He's a cookie-cut out politician, and guaranteed loss for the Republicans.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/05/cnn-poll-still-no-front-runner-in-the-battle-for-the-gop-nomination/ Who has the best change to beat Obama? RP polled number one, by CNN, who is largely left leaning. Better to get advice form your opposition, than fox on a poll like this.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Thing is, just about every politician has flip flopped on one thing or another...just look at how many Obama has since then. Mccain flipped on a lot of things such as immigration. If Paul runs, it'll be as an independent b/c the GOP will make sure he wont represent them. People like limbaugh hold a lot of power and Rush single handedly torpedoed newts chances of running.


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

no matter who you vote for you will end up with the same results...


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

I support the terminator and his beautiful mistress for president....and I dont need to see a birth certificate.


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

diddye said:


> *Thing is, just about every politician has flip flopped on one thing or another*...just look at how many Obama has since then. Mccain flipped on a lot of things such as immigration. If Paul runs, it'll be as an independent b/c the GOP will make sure he wont represent them. *People like limbaugh hold a lot of power and Rush single handedly torpedoed newts chances of running*.


The only issue RP has ever changed on, is the death penalty, and it is because there have been so many DNA evidence cases that vindicated people, only after their execution. Probably a good reason to change your stance on a position. Other than that, RP has not flipped on one issue: foreign policy, drug war, civil liberties, monetary policy, pro-life, property rights, pro-constitution, welfare & domestic spending.

One talking heads and one news organization should not dictate who candidates are. Sadly, that seems to be our circumstances as of late. I hope its not the case this time around. I really think you may be underestimating RP's numbers. He had a large following in 08 and it has grown exponentially in size. He's a wizard in debates and he's been studying free market economics since the 60's.

If Paul gets knocked out of the Repub. race, I don't think he'll play the 3rd party ticket. Its a losers race, and either way, the same policy would derive from either Obama or Romney- they will have different rhetoric, but the same agenda. Establishment republicans vs. Establishment democrats is whats called False Dichotomy-

A *false dilemma* (also called *false dichotomy*, the *either-or fallacy*, *fallacy of false choice*, *black-and-white thinking* or the *fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses*) is a type of logical fallacy that involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are additional options.


False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice ("If you are not with us, you are against us.") But the fallacy can also arise simply by accidental omission of additional options rather than by deliberate deception (e.g., "I thought we were friends, but all my friends were at my apartment last night and you weren't there.")[sup][_citation needed_][/sup]

In the community of philosophers and scholars, many believe that "unless a distinction can be made rigorous and precise it isn't really a distinction."[sup][1][/sup] An exception is analytic philosopher John Searle, which called it an incorrect assumption which arises false dichotomies.[sup][2][/sup] Searle insists that "it is a condition of the adequacy of a precise theory of an indeterminate phenomenon that it should precisely characterize that phenomenon as indeterminate; and a distinction is no less a distinction for allowing for a family of related, marginal, diverging cases."[sup][2][/sup] Similarly, when two alternatives are presented, they are often, though not always, two extreme points on some spectrum of possibilities; this can lend credence to the larger argument by giving the impression that the options are mutually exclusive, even though they need not be.[sup][_citation needed_][/sup] Furthermore, the options in false dichotomies are typically presented as being collectively exhaustive, in which case the fallacy can be overcome, or at least weakened, by considering other possibilities, or perhaps by considering a whole spectrum of possibilities, as in fuzzy logic


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

```

```



wisco_pygo said:


> One thing is for certain, RP will have a harder time getting the (R) nomination than beating Obama in the general election. We (conservatives) need independents, progressives, and democrats who support Ron Paul to register as republicans for the primaries, so we can ensure the neo-cons do not beat Ron Paul.


This^^^
I recluctantly did so two weeks ago.....I hate the party system but if we have to use it to get someone decent elected so be it.
If we can get him past the primaries this guy will destroy Obama in any debate.


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

it's doubtful...obama is a much better talker than most americans will credit him for...some things are indefensable however...for that reason you may be right...


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

r1dermon said:


> it's doubtful...obama is a much better talker than most americans will credit him for...some things are indefensable however...for that reason you may be right...


i disagree.i think EVERYONE knows obama has a "gift" of speaking to the masses.thats a big part of why he is where he is today.


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

that must be why there was a huge stink over him "relying" on a teleprompter...the radio is constantly ridiculing him for his linguistics.


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

i think thats old news,but idk.IMO hes a wonderful speaker...its just the sh*t he says i dont like lol.


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

r1dermon said:


> it's doubtful...obama is a much better talker than most americans will credit him for...some things are indefensable however...for that reason you may be right...


reading off a teleprompter and performing, in an efficient matter in debates, are two very different aspects of public speaking.

Ron Paul sucks at giving speeches, he actually quite boring, but the guy sends zingers non-stop in debates. part of the reason i really like him- he can refute bullshit ideas on the spot


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

r1dermon said:


> it's doubtful...obama is a much better talker than most americans will credit him for...some things are indefensable however...for that reason you may be right...


Both of them are great speakers.....but which one promised a whole bunch of sh*t in the last presidential debate that didn't get done? He's pissed off the liberals because he's not liberal enough, he's pissed off the independants by making concessions to the Republicans they feel he shouldn't have, he's pissed off the Mexicans because he didn't give them amenesty, he's pissed off the people who voted for him so he'd end the wars, he's pissed off half the country with the healthcare bill......what's going to happen to the narrow margin he had last time when a few thousand people from each state stay home out of disgust on election day?
There are ALOT of people out there who voted for this guy not because he was a Dem or a Repub, but because of the promises he made while campaigning. Many of those promises have either been broken, or worse, he did the exact opposite of what he said he would do.


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

so can obama, if you watched him during the run up to the election...of course mccain was worthless as a debater, he really couldn't get his point accross, and it made him sound like he didn't know what he was talking about. obama vs paul would be a good debate IMO, because both would have some interesting opposing ideas...im just not sure the american public would want to run with paul's ideas, given that we've become so accustomed to what america has become.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

When people are undecided, they ultimately decide on the status quo. That means that if they're iffy on Ron Paul, they'll vote for Obama b/c hes the safe bet. Ron has very little if any media support and we all know the media sways the public. As much as I want to see Obama lose, im just stating the facts...Ron wont get far if he doesn't appeal to the majority. Didn't he only get like 5% of the vote last time?


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## muskielover1 (Dec 7, 2004)

^that


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

diddye said:


> When people are undecided, they ultimately decide on the status quo. That means that if they're iffy on Ron Paul, they'll vote for Obama b/c hes the safe bet. Ron has very little if any media support and we all know the media sways the public. As much as I want to see Obama lose, im just stating the facts...Ron wont get far if he doesn't appeal to the majority. Didn't he only get like 5% of the vote last time?


It is true that he did not get a large majority of delegates last time around. I'll ask you though, is the political paradigm even close to what it was in 2008? No. People have figured out that Obama is just another shill, doing the bidding of special interests. Oh and that crazy Ron Paul guy, everything he said in the 2008 debates has come to fruition- he said there would be no change with Obama, that his policies are the same and Bush's were. What have we gotten since 2008? More wars, more stimulus bills, $1.6 trillion deficits, and more erosions of our civil liberties. Ron Paul called the housing market bubble in 2003, 5 years before it popped. Ron Paul saw the economic collapse years before it happened in 2008.

Only in the most sophisticated media propaganda could a flight surgeon, a doctor, a 30-year student of economics, an advocate of the constitution and peace be labeled 'crazy.'

Diddye/Muskie- Would you vote for Ron Paul if he was chosen as the candidate?

I know the argument is getting belabored but I guess I'm just sick of "well the media won't support ron paul" or 'he is just out there and weird.' These are arguments suited for children. Between the Iraq war, the bailouts, and all the other bullshit the media spins, why does anyone trust their ploys? I can't help but think in modern America that we stop thinking, and let our emotions go wild. If we let news outlets pick our candidates for us, we're in big trouble, and we're never going to get out. We need to start picking candidates on whether or not they can get our country back on the path to constitutionality, liberty, and prosperity. If Fox News and other media organizations are impeding that process, we need to stop listening to them.

When you think of how news outlets (ie that Status quo) treat Ron Paul, let us examine a historical quote about patriots- Mark Twain said, "In the beginning of change, the patriot is scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Do you want to be a patriot now, or later? It also reminds of a quote by Ghandi, "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they argue with you, then you win."














[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez5robAWmu4[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc4GblK75xg


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz7LHlmhlDU[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgK1XrmvsQo


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