# Something that I dont understand in Iraq



## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Why is it that the citizens stay in their house in Iraq when they know a war is going on and bombs and bullets are all around them? We see all these pics of innocent people being hurt. So why in the heck are they there to begin with. They should know enough to clear out when the army comes to their town, its not like the have much to leave behind (not many possesions, or dependable job). And in some cases they might be lying and were really an Iraq soldier or something, but who knows?


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

There have been a lot of "civilians" that are actually Army.....but Nate you have to ask yourself....would you be willing to just drop everything, and run out of town and be a refugee living in mud and tents and sh*t? Its not that simple to just "leave". Remember this is a BIG city and there is plenty of room for people to hunker down and wait it out.

Its a shame about the civilian casualties though.







It just goes to show you how far the laws of war have come since WW2. Back then it was perfectly acceptable to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians to achieve the end of a war. Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima.....all killed > 200k civilians. Back then EVERYONE was the "enemy", not just the soldiers in uniform. I know a lot of this has to do with the introduction of precision guided weapons but I like the trend that the world is taking.....

Too bad the terrorists didnt keep this rule on 9-11.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

These darn Iragis dont follow any rules, they use citizen shields, dress up as them, fake surrender, suicide bomb. Never do you hear anybody mention about how many died in the World Trade Center Towers, I think its a crock people make a big deal of it, and then dont care about our own people

But Mike my question comes from the stance they dont have a good life to start with, thats why I feel that way.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 9 2003, 02:52 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> These darn Iragis dont follow any rules, they use citizen shields, dress up as them, fake surrender, suicide bomb. Never do you hear anybody mention about how many died in the World Trade Center Towers, I think its a crock people make a big deal of it, and then dont care about our own people
> 
> But Mike my question comes from the stance they dont have a good life to start with, thats why I feel that way.


 What actual experience do you have with war Nate other than TV commentaries? I'm curious.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

many civilians have been shot when they were trying to leave and also where would they go? and how?


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> But Mike my question comes from the stance they dont have a good life to start with, thats why I feel that way.


 Your opinion of a "good life" is FAR different than theirs I am sure. In some places in the world, the "good life" is simply finding a dry place to lay your head. Its all relative. And I am sure most people would rather hunker down with the possessions they have collected with their life than run and hide and lose everything.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

There was a huge risk in leaving. If you were caught trying to flee the city you would have been executed. This has been stated many times by members of the population of Iraq, as well as defectors that currently live in the US. That is something the Iraq people needed to think about before trying to get out of the city and was it worth it to risk your family members lives or hope that the war did not come into your home.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

They don't leave because they will be shot, their family will be shot. Or worse. Saddam has been ruling the country since the late 70's via fear, violence and repression. Most people have never known live without. If there's a hint that he's still around many people will not speak out or try to do anything. There was a news clip of a man talking to UK soldiers and a press agency, saying his family would not show themselves on tv because they were afraid they would be punished for talking to coalition soldiers. They were happy the Brits were there, but were still afraid of retribution. After today you will see more people in the streets. It's not so simple as "if it's so bad then just leave" because they are frankly unable to, or terrified to try.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I wasnt aware of the penalty of leaving, now I see, that why I asked, but Mike what I am trying to say is they dont have much to leave behind so it shouldnt be a big deal.

My knowledge of war is from reading research on effects of, actual biographies of soldier experiences in combat, and news reports. I have done a number of research papers on war, and the after effects on soldiers and civilians of the area, mostly Vietnam though


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> what I am trying to say is they dont have much to leave behind so it shouldnt be a big deal.


 I find your world view pretty appalling. Who are you to generalize what is "having much" is. You have absolutely no frame of reference to that end of the world. Just because they dont have fish tanks, ponies, huge houses, etc to leave behind doesnt mean they "dont have much". They have their homes, their clothes, their possessions, their family heirlooms, their roots, their pride. It might not be up to American standards of what is "much" but to them and their families, it is everything.

Am I completely off base here? Is anyone else noticing Nate's tunnel vision?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Xenon said:


> Am I completely off base here? Is anyone else noticing Nate's tunnel vision?


 No, I have noticed it also and I find it sad.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

it isnt tunnel vision, you just dont understand what I am saying, so I will drop it


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I understand completely, you were referring to material possessions. There is more to life than the acquisition of physical assets. It is sad that many have lost sight of that fact.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

if you want to go on that topic, I have donated many of my things to less fortunate people

all I was ever trying to say is those people wouldnt have as much as we do to pack up and run with


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> if you want to go on that topic, I have donated many of my things to less fortunate people


 To understand what I am talking about Nate, you would have to donate something more valuable than "things".


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

ok such as clothes, food, money, gifts for kids at christmas, thats "things" I have dontated, what have you done since you are judging me


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 9 2003, 05:29 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I wasnt aware of the penalty of leaving, now I see, that why I asked, but Mike what I am trying to say is they dont have much to leave behind so it shouldnt be a big deal.
> 
> My knowledge of war is from reading research on effects of, actual biographies of soldier experiences in combat, and news reports. I have done a number of research papers on war, and the after effects on soldiers and civilians of the area, mostly Vietnam though.


Well if you have done all this so-called research then you would 1) be more conscious of people in a war situation and their actions, 2) Be much more humanitarian in your replies. BTW Nate, for your information I am/was a paratrooper in the 173rd Airborne Brigade in Vietnam, the same unit that is now in Northern Iraq and was medivac'd from that country with injuries. I was hospitalized at Letterman Hospital in San Francisco and endured the welcome home for Vietnam Vets. My point is, arm chair experts don't know squat on what they write about because nothing takes the place of actually being there and seeing the real plight of people. If you had done this research then we would not even have seen this topic by you and its question.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

my point was I didnt know Sadaam and his regieme were shooting people who left, thinks for the history lesson


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> ok such as clothes, food, money, gifts for kids at christmas, thats "things" I have dontated, what have you done since you are judging me


 My intention was not to judge you Nate; I think it is great that you donate things to people who are less fortunate than you. But let me ask you one question, what are you really giving up? What is it really costing you? When you give food, does it mean you will not eat tonight? When you give clothes does it mean you will be cold tonight? Probably not, so what is it really costing you? But that is not what I was referring too when I said:


> To understand what I am talking about Nate, you would have to donate something more valuable than "things".


I was simply referring to the donation of your time. Many people give things, very few give what I consider more valuable, their time.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 9 2003, 06:56 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> my point was I didnt know Sadaam and his regieme were shooting people who left, thinks for the history lesson


. I think we all pretty much gathered that, but I find it amazing since this topic has been scattered throughout TV, here in the lounge, in newspapers, radio and word of mouth. Indeed, I'm sure it is even being discussed in schools and universities. Find it amazing your statement above.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> it isnt tunnel vision, you just dont understand what I am saying, so I will drop it


As a matter of fact I know *exactly* what your saying. The rest of us who are _capable of holding an intelligent conversation_ can plainly see that you are comaparing "what people have" in Iraq to yourself and your own frame of reference. Compared to your fish tanks, nice house, nice clothes, cool car, and ponies, of course you feel the Iraqis "dont have much". In different regions of the world, and even different socioeconomic classes here in America, what people "have" (have == value of their possesions) is completely influenced by their worldview. A homeless man in America might technically "have nothing" but maybe to him, an old letter, or a nice pair of shoes is everything to him. Just like in different parts of the world, such as Baghdad, in the Iraqis peoples frame of reference, despite the fact they might not have a lot of money or lavish possesions yet their house in Baghdad, their family, the roots they have laid are supremely valuable and can not just be walked out without a thought.

Think about your own situation Nate because it is apparent to me that is the only way you can think. If an invading army came into Columbus, OH today and there was a chance of you getting killed, would you just take off without a thought.....or do you "have" too many things to do that.


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

Xenon said:


> There have been a lot of "civilians" that are actually Army.....but Nate you have to ask yourself....would you be willing to just drop everything, and run out of town and be a refugee living in mud and tents and sh*t? Its not that simple to just "leave". Remember this is a BIG city and there is plenty of room for people to hunker down and wait it out.
> 
> Its a shame about the civilian casualties though.
> 
> ...


 well said there x.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Xenon said:


> Just like in different parts of the world, such as Baghdad, in the Iraqis peoples frame of reference, despite the fact they might not have a lot of money or lavish possesions yet their house in Baghdad, their family, the roots they have laid are supremely valuable and can not just be walked out without a thought.


 I think this says/explains it all....


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Indeed it does.


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## mdemers883 (Jan 9, 2003)

I think this way of thinking could be why many nations hate americans.

Mark


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

mdemers883 said:


> I think this way of thinking could be why many nations hate americans.


 Yes, amongst other reasons....


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## mdemers883 (Jan 9, 2003)

and yes frank there is no better experience of war than actually being there. I have a 100% disabled permanent, vietnam vet step father. A very nice guy, occassionally he mentions some of the stuff he saw while in the jungle and it is very horrific, I can't even imagine what it must have been for him being 18yrs old seeing the stuff he saw and killing people. I can't stand arm chair war people either.

Mark


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

mdemers883 said:


> and yes frank there is no better experience of war than actually being there. I have a 100% disabled permanent, vietnam vet step father. A very nice guy, occassionally he mentions some of the stuff he saw while in the jungle and it is very horrific, I can't even imagine what it must have been for him being 18yrs old seeing the stuff he saw and killing people. I can't stand arm chair war people either.
> 
> Mark


 My grandfather fought in WW2 (he's German, but was an ordinary frontline soldier forced to fight: no nazi stuff, so don't even go there!), and has experienced many gruesome things as well (fighting in France and Russia, the wounded and dead, being POW).
He is telling me stories about his experiences from time to time, and I feel about the same as you Mark: I listen quietly, but I fail to understand properly what he has been through, since I can't even imagine being in a similar situation.
I think we still can learn a lot from those old veterans!


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I was in the Army and I can tell you that watching a movie or reading a book is a completely different experience than actually being a soldier.....and for your reference, I can not even fathom what war would be like.


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## mdemers883 (Jan 9, 2003)

I cannot ever fathom it either. The man is now 55 yrs old and still has flashbacks on a regular basis and speaks vietamiese in his dreams. If I ever saw someone disrespect a war veteran I think I would lose it on them. I'm sure Judazz has a deeper respect for veterans as well due to his relations.

mark


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

These people are infinitely more patriotic than most americans are, just for a little perspective. Sure many of them live on dirt floors with hardly any money, but comforts are largely a Western privilege. Third world countries enjoy no such liberties, save for the upper class. Some hate Saddam Hussein, but have said they would take up arms against any invading force, even if they were there to remove Saddam Hussein. They don't care much about possessions because they don't know what they are. Patting ourselves on the back for donating an insignificant amount of goods is insulting to those receiving it. I'd just as soon stay clear of that area.

The Western world has very little conception of how the rest of the world thinks and operates. I think this further proves that, though I'm glad to see some of you have dug through the media bullshit and made your own thoughts on things.

Think about it. Your entire life you have lived under Saddam Hussein, you do not know anything else. You have seen friends, possibly family brutalized and killed for even refusing to do something simple. One man's ears were chopped off because he wouldn't fight in the last war. A child who speaks against Saddam has their entire family killed (parents, siblings, possibly even cousins, aunts and uncles). It quickly becomes clear how repressed people are, and why there was so little fanfare until recently. We already know of instances where the RG or FS took people who merely waved at the troops, tortured them and left them to die in the town square as a reminder what happens when you openly rebel.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Neoplasia Posted on Apr 9 2003, 10:34 PM .....The Western world has very little conception of how the rest of the world thinks and operates. I think this further proves that, though I'm glad to see some of you have dug through the media bullshit and made your own thoughts on things.


Why thank you fellow from Canada. WE try. I think anyone who has seen war or been in a war can appreciate more what it takes to live in a free country than say.....hmmmm a college student that spouts off jibberish facts without knowing what they speak of. Having come from a dirt poor family that tilded the soil, I have a much more appreciation what this country (U.S.A.) means to me and to my forefathers that immigrated here for a better life. Now that my son is defending the very same freedoms I fought for and having him tell me about certain people in colleges in Colorado that put the military down for doing this action, he now better understands what Vietnam Vets went through, though not completely. I might quickly add, I still give up much of my time to help people, even a meager thing like this by giving out information w/o expecting something in return.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I donated my time to rake leaves and cut grass for an old man I know as well, and yes giving money is something considering I am a college student that is realitivly unemployed = barely any money left, and what I do have I blow on fish.

Personally if another country envaded my country for a good cause I would clear out, and if it was some evil deed, I would get my gun out and fight them, I rather die than be a coward, but I am not gonna fight people doing a good thing


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Personally if another country envaded my country for a good cause I would clear out


 That speaks volumes of your character......I'm done with this thread and now see the type of person you are really are.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

ok, so if I were an Iraqi, you think I should fight the americans that are trying to liberate me?

that tells me enough about you


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> ok, so if I were an Iraqi, you think I should fight the americans that are trying to liberate me?
> 
> that tells me enough about you


 They arent fighting!!! They are just sticking by their possesions! And accoriding to you they should just get out and become a refugee because they "dont have much" anyway. Sheesh Nate, I cant believe you are this close minded.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 10 2003, 02:46 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ok, so if I were an Iraqi, you think I should fight the americans that are trying to liberate me?
> 
> that tells me enough about you


. NO Nate it doesn't. It simpy states that you are not in a position to know what is right and what is wrong when your source of information is only the government. As for what it tell you about me.......I fought for the United States of America and I was spat on......what does that tell you about your limited knowledge?


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

you did the right thing, you fought to try to end communism as well as many other causes over in Vietnam, and the government isnt my only source of info, I made the decision for myself that the war in Iraq is a good thing because I believe Sadaam is one of the worst leaders since Hitler, maybe even worse


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> you did the right thing, you fought to try to end communism as well as many other causes over in Vietnam, and the government isnt my only source of info, I made the decision for myself that the war in Iraq is a good thing because I believe Sadaam is one of the worst leaders since Hitler, maybe even worse


 On a side note, he is not worse than Hitler, but then again, there is really no point in comparing human misery...


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## WebHostExpert (Jan 16, 2003)

I could see how people could argue about this, as the only source of information they have is the media, or the crooked government. Almost everything you hear or see about the war, politics,government is eighter A. not true or B. twisted around to sound the way the government wants it too. So you can't base a opion on hear say, or fictional made up storys. But then who knows what is really FACT.

The true people of iraq want this war and the people in power controling the country removed. It sounds like to me what nate is saying is that iraq soldiers are posing as regular people of iraq. I beleave neo hit it right on the dot, these people are so scared of what might happen to them, oh man we take so much for granted here in the USA.

MAD


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

If given the choice between living under say Hitler or Hussein, I doubt many people would want either. My point is when you get to this level of evilness there isn't really any better or worse. They are cut from the same cloth, along with Stalin, Milosovic, Mao etc... The only things that differ are the methods and the final body count.

Up until yesterday the people of Baghdad truly believed that the Americans were not in and around the city. Their only source of information really has been Iraqi TV and the Information Minister who takes propaganda and spin to a whole new level, hats off to that guy lol. So many were totally surprised with the US came rolling into town.

This is a people who are filled with pride, a part of the world where honor and shame mean more than everything except maybe religion (maybe not Iraq, it's fairly secular). So to have foreign soldiers on their soil even though they are trying to help them is to many intollerable. Their way of thinking is completely different from ours, I see that many still have problems understanding that but that's probably more a matter of education. I'm not actually sure what the topic is here anymore.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

The main topic was Nates assumption that Iraqi people have the ability to just get up and leave their homes at a moments notice because the "do not have much" to leave. This point was proven to be the work of a person that is incapable of empathizing with people in different situations than himself.


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## mdemers883 (Jan 9, 2003)

just when you thought he couldn't be any worse...


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

mdemers883 said:


> just when you thought he couldn't be any worse...


 yeah, you wasted even more space


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## mdemers883 (Jan 9, 2003)

I guess I should pack up and move since I don't have much then


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