# Tank stocking....are there any rules



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

So I dont completely destroy ksls's thread about her rhom....I decided to bring the conversation to a new thread. This is where it was left off....



Grosse Gurke said:


> Yes i have never owned a large rhom, regardless, doesnt mean anything, just knowing that a large rhom will get amonia burn in just a mere 45 minute travel should tell you alot, on why such a big fish should need a large tank... ive owned cichlids and all... ive been down the road.


First...large rhoms create less bio-load then most fish....and let me explain why. I feed my rhom once...maybe twice a week. He doesnt chew the food up like Pygocentrus...he swallows an entire 2"X5" piece of catfish whole...so there are not left over food particles that would decay and add to the bio-load. So the reality is that a large rhom needs much less filtration then a group of pygos.


> And to say owning a Big rhom is the only way to learn, from your words of wisdom?? which really doesnt mean much, really!, and im being brutally honest.


I believe it was you that said you had 16 years experience in fish keeping. The problem I see is that you dont have any experience with the fish in question...and yet you profess to be an expert. I have been driving for 27 years....does that mean I should be rolling in the Indy 500? I try very hard not to give advice specific to a species unless I have cared for that species. Well...I have been lucky enough to care for almost all the Serrasalmus and Pygocentrus species prevalent in this hobby...so I think I have a little bit to offer in how these fish react in the home aquarium.


> Nothing i have said is wrong, and a skittish fish is nor happy nor stressed it can be both, it is living its intended way of living, it is in its nature to run when threatned. You interpret everything distorted. A piranha is a mean fish if you make it to be one,... stick it in a small tank and make it suffer and it will!


When have I ever said putting a fish in a small tank makes them mean? Can a fish even be mean? That is a human emotion...not sure how that would apply to a fish. What I do think is that you can make a fish comfortable (stress free) in an environment...and the size of a tank can impact that...large or small. 


> You fail to believe when an animal is cornered that it will defend itself, and thats what a fish will do when put in an undersized tank. especially a piranha.


A piranha will defend its territory. How big that territory is...depends on the individual fish. In the home aquarium, if they are in an environment that is much larger then their territory....they become very skittish. What I am suggesting is that these fish (solo Serrasalmus) are more comfortable in a tank that replicates the size of their territory.


> Owning a big Rhom, doesnt make someone more knowledgeable, nor does it make them a pro,....Now you also say interacting with them, is to understand them, and yes i do understand them, very well. What you see as a happy fish, finger chasing and attacking things that move, BY reducing the size of the tank because you believe hes happier in that setting or the point your trying to make about dimensions of tanks?,


If owning a species doesnt being knowledge...what does? When I say interaction I have never said finger chasing or attacking. What I am talking about is when I walk the room my rhoms tank is in...my fish reacts. He doesnt bang the glass or anything...but he will face me and watch what I am doing. If I have food in my tank...he will nose the surface of the water and start snapping his jaws. If I dont...he just watches me. When anyone else is in the room...he just ignores them. That is what I am talking about when I say interaction.


> even though you are reducing the amount of available filterd water by doing so... what does that tell you as common sense???


It tells me that I filter my tanks based on the bio-load...not the available water. I also have my rhoms tank set up on an autowater changer.


> Obviously you are oblivious to the obvious, and your education must me somewhat damperd by your distorted views. Is that in "YOUR BOOK" also? Iv read literature beyond literature, from more educated people than yourself,... and nothing will convince me otherwise.


Um....ok....but why would you be so closed minded about this hobby? Unfortunately there isnt much out there on how to care about a large rhom other then this website and the experience of our members. I can honestly say that when dealing with the care of piranhas in the home aquarium....this site has more accurate and up to date information then any book. But hey....you go ahead and read about how to care for these fish....I will continue to care for them.


> Now to go back and forth saying your right and hes right and blah blah blah,.. makes no sense, your views, like your "neandrathal" perception that 20 gallons or 15 gallons per inch is incorrect, because YOU believe so, because "YOUR BOOK" the holy grail that has no educational value nor fact, just personal perception, again i may add which is a useless book.


Lets take your rules and put them into practice.

20 gallons per fish: 
Ten 8" pygos = 200 gallon tank
one 9" brandtii= 20 gallon tank

15 gallons per inch:
Ten 8" pygos = 1200 gallon tank
one 9" brandtii = 135 gallon tank

Now I dont know about you....but a 9" brandtii in a 20 gallon tank might be a little tight....and I am not sure you could even find ten 8" nattereri in a 1200 gallon tank. So you continue to believe in your rules...and I will continue to stock my tank based on how my fish react.


> Just because YOU and other people in hobby agree... doesnt make that the correct way of doing things. There are other reasons on why allowing a certain amount of water for a fish which i wont even start on, (since you know so much) other than space.. I dont cut corners in the hobby to save money,i treat every animal with respect as needed, ive learned as much as i could and make sure that the fish is in the best suitable surroundings, and will remain to do so. I wont stick a 10 inch fish in a 50 gallon tank or whatnot and never will,.... there is a right way and an idiots way of doing things is,.. and being an idiot, and believing that undersizing a tank, because the fish appears happier by your "observation of interaction" which i assume is in "your book", right beside your 2:3 ratio of tank sizing.


Ok...so lets examine my idiots guide to fishkeeping:
My 16" rhom tank: 180 gallon tank, 3 eheim canister filters each rated for a tanks over 100 gallons....drip system set to change 90 gallons a week.
My 11" maculatus tank: 75 gallon tank, one AC110 and one eheim 2215. Combined filtration rated for over 200 gallons
My two 5" maculatus tank: 180 gallon tank, wet/dry rated for 300+ gallons, drip system set to change 90 gallons a week.
4" piraya tank: 125 gallon tank, two AC110's and one eheim 2215.

I also have an empty 500 gallon tank that according to your calculations would be just right for three 10" pygos....I dont know....I might need to push that a little.

It is people like you that read about fishkeeping and take everything at face value&#8230;.why not go out and get a little experience under your belt and then come talk to me.


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## Ja'eh (Jan 8, 2007)

I had to recently transfer my two terns and two pirayas from a 135g to a 75g to repair a leak. They've been in there for a couple of weeks now while I re cycle my bigger tank and to be honest they seem to be less confrontational in the 75 as opposed to being in the 135.


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## jp80911 (Apr 3, 2008)

what GG said









my 12" diamond acted more bold before I moved it to 180g


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## Alexx (Jan 20, 2006)

> It is people like you that read about fishkeeping and take everything at face value&#8230;.


^^ so true

... nothings better than hands on experiance and knowing your own fish.... what works for one ,very rarely works for another


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

GG so 6 pygos in a 72x19x20 118g is ok?


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA (Dec 8, 2003)

GG that was very well put and I dont think I could keep my cool like you do when talking to people that really dont understand our hobby.


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA (Dec 8, 2003)

Just thought I would add a pic of a 13" rhom in a 90 gal and he was more interactive in the 90 than my 180. 
View attachment 190476


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Johnny Zanni said:


> Just thought I would add a pic of a 13" rhom in a 90 gal and he was more interactive in the 90 than my 180.
> View attachment 190476


Thats a really nice setup









Oh...and I know my first post reads like a novel...but it is really in interesting topic&#8230;and one that comes up all the time.


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA (Dec 8, 2003)

I dont have it set up like that anymore, I sold the fish to Ash and he has it in a display tank now and I picked up 25 baby macs but I am down to 11 so they are in the 90 now. But I really did like it set up like that and will more than likely set it up like that again. Thank for the compliment GG


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

i got 3 in my 75g (3,4,5") reds and 2 .5" ones in a 23g so i will be up to 5 they are reds by the way..
i am thinking about getting at least 1 ternetzi and 1 caribe


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Just give it up man, i have my beliefs, your point your trying to get across 24hrs later is of no use... i do not care wat you have to say. and those calculations are right, all are per inch of fish. Some my find the sizes excessive yes, practicle, no because people would more than likely not have the money, so they are forced to make due,... now when you start dealing with single fish yes you can,... again, the points your touching on, is for your ego. I will continue to put my fish in large tanks, like needed. I like to read, and read all the time,... and im highly educated. I like fish in open area, i detest seeing fish in such small tanks, i find it rediculous.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

ok so now one 10" pygo needs a 200g

and a 15" rhom will need a 3000g

and a 2x 2" reds need a 80g then a 120g when they grow another inch

dude. get real GG is the bomb and you are the target just shut up and dont try and be smart


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## FishermanCanada (Feb 12, 2007)

italianstylzzz said:


> Now to go back and forth saying your right and hes right and blah blah blah,.. makes no sense, your views, like your "neandrathal" perception that 20 gallons or 15 gallons per inch is incorrect, because YOU believe so, because "YOUR BOOK" the holy grail that has no educational value nor fact, just personal perception, again i may add which is a useless book.
> 
> Read what i wrote, 20 per INCH of fish, if you clean the crust outta your eye, and your ego,... and you will interpret things better.
> Its either that or your math skills are shot to sh*t, more of a reason why i think your not very well educated, READ DUMBASS READ
> almost 24 hrs to make a response and you still cant get it right???? Do you even know how to read???


END OF STORY!!!


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## glockner99 (Nov 2, 2005)

My 14" Rhom is quite content in his 150......He likes to circle the driftwood in the middle, it's almost like his security blanket..


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

hows that end of story? this dudes logic is just plainly retarded mabey thats why he can only have one 4.5" manny because he can only afford a 90 and by sticking to his logic anything else would need at least a 9,009g tank


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Johnny Zanni said:


> ok so now one 10" pygo needs a 200g
> 
> and a 15" rhom will need a 3000g
> 
> ...


where did you do your math???? 15x 15 is??? 4 x 15 is??? everything is done per inch of fish baseing it on 15gal per inch, some may go lower to 10, personal prefrence, really depending on fish, obviously your math teachers up in the bay must be out to lunch if anyone should shut up, its the guy with the poor math skills

ciao pal


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

After edit



italianstylzzz said:


> Now to go back and forth saying your right and hes right and blah blah blah,.. makes no sense, your views, like your "neandrathal" perception that 20 gallons or 15 gallons per inch is incorrect, because YOU believe so, because "YOUR BOOK" the holy grail that has no educational value nor fact, just personal perception, again i may add which is a useless book.
> 
> Read what i wrote, *20 per INCH of fish*, if you clean the crust outta your eye, and your ego,... and you will interpret things better.
> Its either that or your math skills are shot to sh*t, more of a reason why i think your not very well educated, READ DUMBASS READ
> almost 24 hrs to make a response and you still cant get it right???? Do you even know how to read???


nice edit


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## jamezgt (Jun 24, 2008)

So what do you recommend for: 4 x 8" pygos?


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

according to him my friend you need a 720g tank

btw it shows when you edit... stop editing your posts and get it wrong the first time


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Johnny Zanni said:


> according to him my friend you need a 720g tank
> 
> btw it shows when you edit... stop editing your posts and get it wrong the first time


learn how to do math first, my personal prefrence is 15 to as low as 10 per inch of fish, 20 was brought up by gg read the posts. 2ndly learn to use a calculator,.... also for the guy with 4 x 8" 480 gal, which is unpracticle do what you want.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

show me your math for the 4x 8" 
you put 20g per 1" of fish dont deny it because it says it right up there

4x8" = 36"

36"x20g = 720g


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Johnny Zanni said:


> hows that end of story? this dudes logic is just plainly retarded mabey thats why he can only have one 4.5" manny because he can only afford a 90 and by sticking to his logic anything else would need at least a 9,009g tank


Now your logic behind this comment is what??? i can only afford a 90 yet i have a 125 and live in a 3/4 of a million house, with 2 cars and my own contracting business???? before you talk, learn something first, and that would start with a calculator


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

ok tell me how to use your calculator


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

italianstylzzz said:


> according to him my friend you need a 720g tank
> 
> btw it shows when you edit... stop editing your posts and get it wrong the first time


learn how to do math first, my personal prefrence is 15 to as low as 10 per inch of fish, 20 was brought up by gg read the posts. 2ndly learn to use a calculator,.... also for the guy with 4 x 8" 480 gal, which is unpracticle do what you want.
[/quote]
Im curious what fish you have in what size tanks.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

whats in your 125 a few swordtails?


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Johnny Zanni said:


> whats in your 125 a few swordtails?


my 125 consists of 4.5 inch manny, 3 chichlids at all times for food, they are about 2.5"


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

do you know how to read? GG post says 15g per 1" of fish which he even said is impracticle

oh dude.. watch it your breaking the 20g per 1" rule those fish cant be happy!


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## jp80911 (Apr 3, 2008)

so if I have twenty 1" neon tetra I would need a 300g tank????


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

thats overstocking jp at least a 400g for that


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Johnny Zanni said:


> do you know how to read? GG post says 15g per 1" of fish which he even said is impracticle
> 
> oh dude.. watch it your breaking the 20g per 1" rule those fish cant be happy!


nope read from yesterday i said 15 i made refrence to his 20. Read!! honestly read! and 15 was at most,... he brought up 20, i was refering to his math question. his 9 in a 20??? read man,


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

sean-820 said:


> according to him my friend you need a 720g tank
> 
> btw it shows when you edit... stop editing your posts and get it wrong the first time


learn how to do math first, my personal prefrence is 15 to as low as 10 per inch of fish, 20 was brought up by gg read the posts. 2ndly learn to use a calculator,.... also for the guy with 4 x 8" 480 gal, which is unpracticle do what you want.
[/quote]
Im curious what fish you have in what size tanks.
[/quote]
For large solo fish, imo 15g per fish sounds optimal, but its not realistic when when theres multiple fish or smaller fish. A 15" fish in a 220 is ideal imo. Just as the calculation predicted (15x 15=225). But it doesnt work when theres multiple fish as three year old reds at 6" a piece would already need a larger tank then a 15" rhom


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

jp80911 said:


> so if I have twenty 1" neon tetra I would need a 300g tank????


this whole chat was piranha, not community fish, READ


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

ok we will turn JPs analogy into piranha

so you need a 200g tank for a 10" red? or elong?


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

sean-820 said:


> according to him my friend you need a 720g tank
> 
> btw it shows when you edit... stop editing your posts and get it wrong the first time


learn how to do math first, my personal prefrence is 15 to as low as 10 per inch of fish, 20 was brought up by gg read the posts. 2ndly learn to use a calculator,.... also for the guy with 4 x 8" 480 gal, which is unpracticle do what you want.
[/quote]
Im curious what fish you have in what size tanks.
[/quote]
For large solo fish, imo 15g per fish sounds optimal, but its not realistic when when theres multiple fish or smaller fish. A 15" fish in a 220 is ideal imo. Just as the calculation predicted (15x 15=225). But it doesnt work when theres multiple fish as three year old reds at 6" a piece would already need a larger tank then a 15" rhom
[/quote]

finally someone who understands something,.... this whole chat was about a 15" rhom, now being that inpracticle it would be for 3 fish, go down to, 10 per inch, which is my limit with piranha.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

or if you want 10 5" wimple piranhas you would need a 1000g tank


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Johnny Zanni said:


> ok we will turn JPs analogy into piranha
> 
> so you need a 200g tank for a 10" red? or elong?


like you fail to read, 10x15 or u can go 10 x 10 if you want. 20 was a number gg came up with. clean the crust outta your eyes


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

your logic is stupid is not practicle

stop posting please i can feel my IQ dropping



> like you fail to read, 10x15 or u can go 10 x 10 if you want. 20 was a number gg came up with. clean the crust outta your eyes


your still saying you need a 150 or at minimum a 100g tank for ONE! 10" RED!

or a 500g for 10 wimple piranhas


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## TheCableGuy (Feb 22, 2005)

Dunno if it's the beer, but this thread is hilarious!!


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Johnny Zanni said:


> or if you want 10 5" wimple piranhas you would need a 1000g tank


wimple are scale eaters, and not even on the scale of serra;s or pygos.... i would rate em at a 10 or a 5. you obviously have a complex and are trying to prove something, of which im still trying to decipher,...


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

italianstylzzz said:


> Just give it up man, i have my beliefs, your point your trying to get across 24hrs later is of no use... i do not care wat you have to say. and those calculations are right, all are per inch of fish. Some my find the sizes excessive yes, practicle, no because people would more than likely not have the money, so they are forced to make due,... now when you start dealing with single fish yes you can,... again, the points your touching on, is for your ego. I will continue to put my fish in large tanks, like needed. I like to read, and read all the time,... and im highly educated. I like fish in open area, i detest seeing fish in such small tanks, i find it rediculous.


Why do you get so worked up? 
OK...just to clear the air. I dont generally go online after work...so yes...it does take me some time to respond. I didnt see your post until today..and I responded when I had time. Second...I compared your 15 gallons per inch rule to another rule people like to toss around...and that is 20 gallons per fish. I consider both to be on the same level and might be useful for a child and his first tank...but really have no place once you understand the basics. If you wish to apply these rules to your fish...that is great...however you might want to relax a little. You keep jumping on me for having an opinion...however you stress that I should allow you yours. All I have said is that your opinions are formed from reading about these fish...and mine are formed from keeping them.

What exactly does education have to do with this hobby? Does Harvard have a class on water changes? All your condescending posts do is make you look like your argument is weak. And really&#8230;.who is giving themselves the reach around with their posts about how highly educated they are...and how us common folk cant afford to provide suitable tanks for our fish?

I wont be able to respond...so if I dont answer until tomorrow....dont hold it against me...and believe me...I am not hitting the books to work up another witty reply.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

im proving that your a idiot and your logic is WHACK!


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Johnny Zanni said:


> your logic is stupid is not practicle
> 
> stop posting please i can feel my IQ dropping
> 
> ...


whats wrong with a 100 gallon for a 10" red???? ive seen it many times


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

you could do at least 4 reds in a 100g


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Johnny Zanni said:


> you could do at least 4 reds in a 100g


if thats what you feel like you wanna do, then do it, im not stopping you, i personally wouldnt, that is my prefrence.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

i hate drunk natives, i get my kicks reading stupid anologies about how many fish a person can have in their tank

here is a question from my inner child

HAI I GOTS A 15000g FISH TANK AND I WAS WONDERING HOW MANY MEAN PIRANA I CAN HAVE


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Johnny Zanni said:


> i hate drunk natives, i get my kicks reading stupid anologies about how many fish a person can have in their tank
> 
> here is a question from my inner child
> 
> HAI I GOTS A 15000g FISH TANK AND I WAS WONDERING HOW MANY MEAN PIRANA I CAN HAVE


do the math, base it on 10 if you want,.... i dont know what your trying to get across, your not cunning at all to say the least. I have my personal prefrence, its not a crime, yet you are making it out to be??? why??? How is it a stupid anology??? are you ecologist or someone of higher education than me??? by your tone, i highly doubt it. I think your a teenager trying to prove nothing.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

I think everybody needs to accept that there are no accurate general equations. Under certain conditions it may work fine, but you cant compare apples to oranges. An inch of shark will need a hell of a lot more then 15g. Obviously this formula doesn't work in every case, but it was started about a 15" rhom. So, in order for his opinion to hold true, the fish must be in the 15" range and not 1' or 15'. He's also was initially only talking about a solo fish.


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## jp80911 (Apr 3, 2008)

italianstylzzz said:


> Everyone is entitled to there own opinion,... but for me, big fish belong in big tanks... what people see if a fish is stressed or not?, is ANYONES GUESS??? no one even knows if they feel pain????, ones skittish,.. one hangs in corner so on,... when u start tampering with whats in tank and increasing and decreasing size,... of course they would change, your changing their environment,... *simple rule is and always will remain, 15 gallons per inch of fish.* Now some may remain up in arms, as to whats right and wrong. Thats solely up to the person,... but as a fish keeper and being in the hobby for 16 years,... fish are always happier with more room,... they naturally lived in open waters,.. and the very least someone can do,... is give them space. to me big fish like that need lots of room, and i personally would never take on such a large fish, even in my 125 gallon tank. That to me is just wrong. especially when they have to turn inside the tank, and are visibly constricted doing so. How someone can find a giagantic fish entertaining, when it has to reposition itself to turn and go to the other side of tank,.... that in my eyes, is a tank to small.
> 
> Now your take on things, of a fish being interactive by decreasing the size???,... listen man, you have a piranha, not a DOLPHIN!! Have you seen these things in the wild???? they dont exactly come up to you to make you pet them do they??? THEY SWIM AWAY,... what you see as SKITISH, is actually a fish that is in a proper environment. When you put that fish with teeth in a smaller box, it will use its only defense possible other than swimming away. So in turn, you have a tank TOO SMALL,... your basing this whole thing on your personal perspective, other than the fishes best interest. So in reality, by making the fish,... "interactive" by putting in a smaller box to show its teeth, your are in essence stressing out the fish MORE.
> 
> END OF STORY


besides volume of the tank is on thing, footprint of the tank is an other thing. you can have 500g for a 30" fish but it does no good if the tank is only 30" wide. too key on the volume and ignore the proper dimensions needed is not wise, IMO.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

opinions are like buttholes everybodys got one

i will say when putting in a rhom analogy its close but its not like you cant bend it either way

in the way of pygos its absolutely insane and i am probly not the only one thinking that

im done posting its like talking to a drunk native


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

sean-820 said:


> opinions are like buttholes everybodys got one
> 
> i will say when putting in a rhom analogy its close but its not like you cant bend it either way
> 
> ...


If you say so, go have a beer


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

jp80911 said:


> Everyone is entitled to there own opinion,... but for me, big fish belong in big tanks... what people see if a fish is stressed or not?, is ANYONES GUESS??? no one even knows if they feel pain????, ones skittish,.. one hangs in corner so on,... when u start tampering with whats in tank and increasing and decreasing size,... of course they would change, your changing their environment,... *simple rule is and always will remain, 15 gallons per inch of fish.* Now some may remain up in arms, as to whats right and wrong. Thats solely up to the person,... but as a fish keeper and being in the hobby for 16 years,... fish are always happier with more room,... they naturally lived in open waters,.. and the very least someone can do,... is give them space. to me big fish like that need lots of room, and i personally would never take on such a large fish, even in my 125 gallon tank. That to me is just wrong. especially when they have to turn inside the tank, and are visibly constricted doing so. How someone can find a giagantic fish entertaining, when it has to reposition itself to turn and go to the other side of tank,.... that in my eyes, is a tank to small.
> 
> Now your take on things, of a fish being interactive by decreasing the size???,... listen man, you have a piranha, not a DOLPHIN!! Have you seen these things in the wild???? they dont exactly come up to you to make you pet them do they??? THEY SWIM AWAY,... what you see as SKITISH, is actually a fish that is in a proper environment. When you put that fish with teeth in a smaller box, it will use its only defense possible other than swimming away. So in turn, you have a tank TOO SMALL,... your basing this whole thing on your personal perspective, other than the fishes best interest. So in reality, by making the fish,... "interactive" by putting in a smaller box to show its teeth, your are in essence stressing out the fish MORE.
> 
> END OF STORY


besides volume of the tank is on thing, footprint of the tank is an other thing. you can have 500g for a 30" fish but it does no good if the tank is only 30" wide. too key on the volume and ignore the proper dimensions needed is not wise, IMO.
[/quote] The fish in question was a rhom. True he didn't say its specific to piranha, but he never said it wasn't specific to this case.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

i dont drink


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Johnny Zanni said:


> i dont drink


either do i







not even coffee,









sean THANK YOU, you seem to be the only person here with an open mind.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

i drink coca cola thats it and water

the natives drink enough for all of us....


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

there was also one other thing, that someone stated that if a fish doesnt eat, it wont create any ammonia, or along those lines. That is not true. Big fish will still create a substantial amount, not as much but enough.


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## weerhom (Jan 12, 2007)

Grosse Gurke said:


> Just give it up man, i have my beliefs, your point your trying to get across 24hrs later is of no use... i do not care wat you have to say. and those calculations are right, all are per inch of fish. Some my find the sizes excessive yes, practicle, no because people would more than likely not have the money, so they are forced to make due,... now when you start dealing with single fish yes you can,... again, the points your touching on, is for your ego. I will continue to put my fish in large tanks, like needed. I like to read, and read all the time,... and im highly educated. I like fish in open area, i detest seeing fish in such small tanks, i find it rediculous.


Why do you get so worked up? 
OK...just to clear the air. I dont generally go online after work...so yes...it does take me some time to respond. I didnt see your post until today..and I responded when I had time. Second...I compared your 15 gallons per inch rule to another rule people like to toss around...and that is 20 gallons per fish. I consider both to be on the same level and might be useful for a child and his first tank...but really have no place once you understand the basics. If you wish to apply these rules to your fish...that is great...however you might want to relax a little. You keep jumping on me for having an opinion...however you stress that I should allow you yours. All I have said is that your opinions are formed from reading about these fish...and mine are formed from keeping them.

What exactly does education have to do with this hobby? Does Harvard have a class on water changes? All your condescending posts do is make you look like your argument is weak. And really&#8230;.who is giving themselves the reach around with their posts about how highly educated they are...and how us common folk cant afford to provide suitable tanks for our fish?

I wont be able to respond...so if I dont answer until tomorrow....dont hold it against me...and believe me...I am not hitting the books to work up another witty reply.
[/quote]


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA (Dec 8, 2003)

How can a fish create waste if it has no intake of food and cant someone just ban this FISH MASTER and his bs ideas of piranha keeping. Italianstylzzz if you are so damn smart then why the hell are you arguing with alot of people that know a hell of alot more than you. BOOKS do not equal intelligence in the piranha hobby, experience equals intelligence in this hobby. I can read all the books in the world about being a dentist but that does not mean I could go in and tell a dentist how to do what he has experiance doing. You are just tryng to boost your own diluted ego with nonsense that can not stack up to are experiance.


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## jp80911 (Apr 3, 2008)

I have my 12" rhom in 180g so I'm not against the idea provide big tank for big fish, what I was trying to say is don't be so key on gallonage, providing proper swimming space is more important of making any fish happy. of course more water volume will be better in terms of water quality but it's our job as fish keepers to keep the water parameters in check.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

JP is right you can have a 4329g tank thats 1x1x1000000 not like you can put a rhom in there


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


> JP is right you can have a 4329g tank thats 1x1x1000000 not like you can put a rhom in there


thats true, and if you read my early posts, my regards in dimension was a topic, with a fish not being able to turn properly,... its all there!


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## weerhom (Jan 12, 2007)

I agree with you the fish give off waste just sitting there, definitely. Slime coat, yada, yada, yada. I think they piss a lot too, sure.

Not that you care about my opinion, even though I am going to give it anyway. I don't think there is a gallon/fish rule. Who the hell carved that in stone. Is that what Axelrod said? I THINK you give the fish the best suited shape/footprint aquarium with the most "gallonage" (not a word) that you can afford, and fit in the area of the house it will be going in. No matter how big the tank is, it doesn't compare to where they came from originally.

Books are written by people who have been to the place the animals are found, and study and record their findings... They are there. In the natural habitat. Nobody "here" can F with Herbert. Period.


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## jp80911 (Apr 3, 2008)

italianstylzzz said:


> I THINK you give the fish the best suited shape/footprint aquarium with the most "gallonage" (not a word) that you can afford, and fit in the area of the house it will be going in. No matter how big the tank is, it doesn't compare to where they came from originally.


I agree, and if the tank NEEDs to be at certain size and if it doesn't fit your house then you will have to think about keeping something else.


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## weerhom (Jan 12, 2007)

No comparison to how the fish acts in a glass box and in the wild. No comparison. It drifts in the river current further than go in the glass box.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

all creatures will create waste even without food, believe it or not of course not to the scale of a fish eating, but it will produce waste. read a book, heck, that was even learned in school, you should know that. Now since you know so much, and just wanna bash my views go right ahead, i dont have anything to prove to you. Now arguing with people who know a heck lot more than me??? based on your observation i assume, and others who believe word for word the other party is right?? come on man, like i said before, we all have our opinions, how i choose to size my tank is my perogative, not yours. If you dont like it, then dont like it, you are entitled to your opinion as i am with mine. I have no ego to prove, really i dont. Now your view on books not equal intelligence, i would believe it, but all the highly intelligent people in this world, read and wrote books, so to say books do not equal intelligence, tell that to med students in university

Here, now im gonna edit this, and teach you a bit about biology, i know some people who read this are dumbfounded, at my comment that all living beings create waste without food. well to specify its animals and fish, not plants, because im sure there are people who are going to find that and put it against me. so here we go and im going to make this as basic as possible....

so, to start off, im sure everyone agrees water is essential for life??? and we can live without food, but not WATER,... now if you noticed, fish swim in water, and water is always readily available. Now another thing you all probly know,... is that fish urinate? Freshwater fish in particular urinate much more frequently opposed to saltwater fish,... now did you know what is comprised of urine???? you guessed it, ammonia is one part,... now to move on to a test you can do at home,.... since some of you feed your fish from what iv seen up to a month without food. So anyone intrested in dieting, this is for you. make a 1 week diet, comprised of only water, no food,...you will live no worries,... now drink your daily recommened intake of 8 ounces,... now you will see you will go to washroom regularly, except for your stool deposits, for those that dont know what the word stool means,... its sh*t., anyways everytime you pee, stick that pee in a cup, and preform a test on that pee, better yet, if your a really confident person and feel that, all that will come out your little hole is water, go ahead and drink it!!! tell me your results.

To sum it up guys, the larger the person or fish in this case, will produce more ammonia because requires more water and have a metabolism differnt from smaller animals , every animal produces it, as a part of its metabolisim, more active animals will produce more than a less active ones. So in turn, yes, aslong as there is water to drink, there is ammonia produced


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

jp80911 said:


> I THINK you give the fish the best suited shape/footprint aquarium with the most "gallonage" (not a word) that you can afford, and fit in the area of the house it will be going in. No matter how big the tank is, it doesn't compare to where they came from originally.


I agree, and if the tank NEEDs to be at certain size and if it doesn't fit your house then you will have to think about keeping something else.

agree with you on some points but like your refrence with the differnce in gallons for a 220 and 120 on how the dimensions are the same its hieght that is only differnce,... its 100 gallons more water, which is 100 gallons of more fresh filterd water, that in the even of a power failure, is 100 gallons of buy time. gotta always thing ahead, not with bare minimum, i know the point you are getting across but a 120 would not be good enough, in my eyes anyways for a 15" fish
[/quote]


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## TheWayThingsR (Jan 4, 2007)

I dont agree with all the rules.... For two years I had a very successful overstocked tank. I had 13 pygos ranging from 5" to 8" in a 125g. I never had any problems whatsoever. It made for a beautiful tank. My pygos weren't skittish, weren't aggressive, anything negative. I had enough filtration to keep the waste in check. I fed them an entire catfish or tilapia fillet every other day and kept the temp at about 68 degrees give or take a couple.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

TheWayThingsR said:


> I dont agree with all the rules.... For two years I had a very successful overstocked tank. I had 13 pygos ranging from 5" to 8" in a 125g. I never had any problems whatsoever. It made for a beautiful tank. My pygos weren't skittish, weren't aggressive, anything negative. I had enough filtration to keep the waste in check. I fed them an entire catfish or tilapia fillet every other day and kept the temp at about 68 degrees give or take a couple.


You used the word overstocked, now what made you get by is a heck of good filtration,.. but point im getting across, is animals need the proper amount of space and water, especialy with 13 fish. This is my opinion. now yes biggest fish you have is 8", and swimming freely without obstruction, is fine because a standard 125 is 18" wide, but when you crowd your tank, you cut there free space. Again this is my opinion, and i feel strongly about it.


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## jp80911 (Apr 3, 2008)

italianstylzzz said:


> agree with you on some points but like your refrence with the differnce in gallons for a 220 and 120 on how the dimensions are the same its hieght that is only differnce,... its 100 gallons more water, which is 100 gallons of more fresh filterd water, that in the even of a power failure, is 100 gallons of buy time. gotta always thing ahead, not with bare minimum, i know the point you are getting across but a 120 would not be good enough, in my eyes anyways for a 15" fish


if power failure is your concern then get a generator and hook up to the filter and heater and have it setup auto switch to generator in the even of power failure instead of relying on extra water volume. think a little bit further ahead than what you have thought.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

jp80911 said:


> agree with you on some points but like your refrence with the differnce in gallons for a 220 and 120 on how the dimensions are the same its hieght that is only differnce,... its 100 gallons more water, which is 100 gallons of more fresh filterd water, that in the even of a power failure, is 100 gallons of buy time. gotta always thing ahead, not with bare minimum, i know the point you are getting across but a 120 would not be good enough, in my eyes anyways for a 15" fish


if power failure is your concern then get a generator and hook up to the filter and heater and have it setup auto switch to generator in the even of power failure instead of relying on extra water volume. think a little bit further ahead than what you have thought.
[/quote]

For me, water is good enough, water is where it lives, im not gonna comprimise space when i can give the fish space, opposed to sticking it in a smaller box, and stick a generator to it. For me, ya that would work, but for the best intrest of the fish for more room for it to swim, makes much more sense to me. If i was constricted for space then ya, but im not, and if your not home to start up your generator, which i assume your refering to a standard gas, because a battery generator would not last very quick. More water is easier route, why make it complicated??


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## Piranha Guru (Nov 24, 2005)

italianstylzzz said:


> To sum it up guys, the larger the person or fish in this case, will produce more ammonia because requires more water and have a metabolism differnt from smaller animals , every animal produces it, as a part of its metabolisim, more active animals will produce more than a less active ones. So in turn, yes, aslong as there is water to drink, there is ammonia produced


I'm glad you attempted to clarify your point, but fish don't actually have to drink water. We need to because we need water in our cells and we do not osmoregulate the same way a fish can in water because we are designed to live on land.

Metabolism produces ammonia...ammonia comes from the breakdown of amino acids ultimately from DIET. The less you eat, the less ammonia is produced. That was GG's point. Water has nothing to do with ammonia amount, but it does affect the concentration of ammonia. The more hydrated you are, the less concentrated the ammonia (but higher volume of liquid because of the water)...the less hydrated, the more concentrated the ammonia (but less volume due to lack of water). Given everything else is the same metabolically, the ammonia amount is the SAME.

Overall fish size is not a good predictor of ammonia amount...you were right about activity level as it is directly related to metabolism, but growth rate (increased metabolism) and diet (food intake = main source of amino acids = ammonia source) are just as important. An actively growing juvenile rhom that is feed daily can produce more ammonia than a larger rhom that is feed weekly.

Bottom line, tank volume dilutes ammonia concentration and is helpful in that respect, but I dare say that filtration (use of plants included) and water changes are far more important than tank size when determining what size fish can be kept in what tank when considering ammonia. Obviously there are logical limits to minimum tank size, but your argument here seems to be heavily focused on ammonia production. Experience becomes the key in that respect. How much space a fish needs to be "happy" is a philosophical argument.


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## TheWayThingsR (Jan 4, 2007)

italianstylzzz said:


> I dont agree with all the rules.... For two years I had a very successful overstocked tank. I had 13 pygos ranging from 5" to 8" in a 125g. I never had any problems whatsoever. It made for a beautiful tank. My pygos weren't skittish, weren't aggressive, anything negative. I had enough filtration to keep the waste in check. I fed them an entire catfish or tilapia fillet every other day and kept the temp at about 68 degrees give or take a couple.


You used the word overstocked, now what made you get by is a heck of good filtration,.. but point im getting across, is animals need the proper amount of space and water, especialy with 13 fish. This is my opinion. now yes biggest fish you have is 8", and swimming freely without obstruction, is fine because a standard 125 is 18" wide, but when you crowd your tank, you cut there free space. Again this is my opinion, and i feel strongly about it.
[/quote]

Like GG has practically said before. Proper space and water would be the Amazon itself.... When we decide to take them out of their natural environment and put them into a man made environment who is to say whats correct? Your opinion streams next to thinking that the average fish keeper is inhumane. There are many veteran fish keepers on this forum who can actually tell the difference between a stressed fish and a happy/content fish. You can tell by the personality or actions of a 14" rhom if it is happy in a 90g tank. But like YOU have said all along, you're just stating your opinion.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Piranha TeAcH said:


> To sum it up guys, the larger the person or fish in this case, will produce more ammonia because requires more water and have a metabolism differnt from smaller animals , every animal produces it, as a part of its metabolisim, more active animals will produce more than a less active ones. So in turn, yes, aslong as there is water to drink, there is ammonia produced


I'm glad you attempted to clarify your point, but fish don't actually have to drink water. We need to because we need water in our cells and we do not osmoregulate the same way a fish can in water because we are designed to live on land.

Metabolism produces ammonia...ammonia comes from the breakdown of amino acids ultimately from DIET. The less you eat, the less ammonia is produced. That was GG's point. Water has nothing to do with ammonia amount, but it does affect the concentration of ammonia. The more hydrated you are, the less concentrated the ammonia (but higher volume of liquid because of the water)...the less hydrated, the more concentrated the ammonia (but less volume due to lack of water). Given everything else is the same metabolically, the ammonia amount is the SAME.

Overall fish size is not a good predictor of ammonia amount...you were right about activity level as it is directly related to metabolism, but growth rate (increased metabolism) and diet (food intake = main source of amino acids = ammonia source) are just as important. An actively growing juvenile rhom that is feed daily can produce more ammonia than a larger rhom that is feed weekly.

Bottom line, tank volume dilutes ammonia concentration and is helpful in that respect, but I dare say that filtration (use of plants included) and water changes are far more important than tank size when determining what size fish can be kept in what tank when considering ammonia. Obviously there are logical limits to minimum tank size, but your argument here seems to be heavily focused on ammonia production. Experience becomes the key in that respect. How much space a fish needs to be "happy" is a philosophical argument.
[/quote]

Fresh water fish dont drink water, i know, ive studied this in school. water is absorbed and is flushed out its system regularly. (Salt water fish work totaly opposite). They urinate regardless, they will urinate more frequently when digesting food, but still urinate regularly. Read more on a fishes biology the differnce with how a fresh water fish takes its water source is differnt from us, but essentially its for the same perpose. when deprived of food, your body will and a fishes body will, look for stored energy that energy is still broken down like everything u ingest, and your body will still produce ammonia, just like your body will still produce stomach acids, without food. fishes, mammals all work on the same principal., all living beings require water, humans fish plants, and they are needed day to day in order to survive, a fishes body is 70% water just like us . Now the only point i was getting across was the comment that fish dont create ammonia, when not fed... which is false, they are continously filtering their bodies with water at all times. They will urinate up to 10 times there bodyweight in one day, saltwater fish on other hand do much less.


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

the beginning of this threat is funny as hell...

so, I have a 4.5" sanch is a 25 gal, this must mean that I'm are very very very bad person/fish keeper, huh?


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Soul Assassin said:


> the beginning of this threat is funny as hell...
> 
> so, I have a 4.5" sanch is a 25 gal, this must mean that I'm are very very very bad person/fish keeper, huh?


I had a sanchezi in a 125 and loved it,... but again for future consideration, why go through hassel of changing a tank when it reaches is potential 7"??? we are all entitled to our opinions, my beliefs are what i believe and what i have learned.


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## Blackdude (Feb 28, 2003)

I prefer to go with footprint then a rule of gallon per inch

In any case, the rhom 
should NEVER be more then 2/3 of the width
should NEVER be in a tank that is less then 4 times is lenght
should NEVER be in a tank the is less then 3 times is height

I'm talking of a solo rhom, not elong or others serra&#8230;

So for a small rhom, who care about the foot print rules, in almost any tank, you will respect it, but a rhom pass 12 inch you should be carefull

Let do some math !!!

Solo Rhom 15 gallon per inch rules (italianstylzzz)

3in rhom = 45G
6in rhom = 90G
9in rhom = 135G
12in rhom = 180G
15in rhom = 225G
16in rhom = 240G
18in rhom = 270G

The are lots of size for a 240G so I will take it for my exemple, so for a 16in rhom
96 x 24 x 25 Tall
72 x 24 x 31 Tall
72 x 30 x 25 Tall
60 x 36 x 25 Tall
48 x 48 x 25 Tall
96 x 18 x 31 Tall

First of all, 2/3 of width = 24 inch width, 64 inch long and 24 inch height
96 x 24 x 25 Tall <-- I little bit long, but good foot print
72 x 24 x 31 Tall <-- to hight to clean, but good for the rhom
72 x 30 x 25 Tall <-- my choise

48 x 48 x 25 Tall and 60 x 36 x 25 Tall <-- will be an exeption on that case, with 48x48 or 60x36 for swimming, he wont need a 64 inch minimum of lenght to swim

___________________

IMO, Solo Rhom 10 gallon per inch rules, will be acurate of the footprint rules are respected

3in rhom = 30G
6in rhom = 60G
9in rhom = 90G
12in rhom = 120G
15in rhom = 150G
18in rhom = 180G

The are lots of size for a 150G so I will take it for my exemple, so for a 15in rhom, let do the math

60 x 24 x 25 Tall
48 x 24 x 31 Tall
48 x 30 x 25 Tall

2/3 of width = 22.5 inch width, 60 inch long and 24 inch height
60 x 24 x 25 Tall <-- we got a good tank here, with 10G per inch of a rhom

I will say footprint rule before gallon per inch rule !!!

Both are good tank for a monster rhom
60 x 24 x 25 Tall 150G
72 x 30 x 25 Tall 240G

and the 240G with that foot print is meaby a better tank, but don't get a 240G that is 96 x 18 x 31 Tall


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Blackdude said:


> I prefer to go with footprint then a rule of gallon per inch
> 
> In any case, the rhom
> should NEVER be more then 2/3 of the width
> ...


Intresting write up, i never said dimensions are not a factor it was main factor based on standard dimensions, as per my original post,... 10-15 rule with piranha is right, all depends on the person, me personally, like iv said,I like more water and space for the fish, i find it better for the fish, personal prefrence


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## Ibanez247 (Nov 9, 2006)

Apparently no matter what we say italianstylzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz is going to just keep arguing. Remember he has a 1/4 million dollar house so he must be smart. Like Britany Spears, ya know she has a 7 million dollar house so she must be a god damn genius. I agree with Black footprint over actual gallons. I have six 8"+ pygos in a 125 that measures 6'x2'x18"tall. They dont need height they need area. the whole 1" per gallon is jsut a general rule there is no set you must have X size tank to X size fish or will die. And the whole your fish wont be happy thing, hate to break it to ya but fish dont have emotions. They can get pyshically stressed but they dont care if they have 1 million gallons or 20gallons to swim around in. This thread is jsut way out of control. He just keeps repeating what hes said 100 times. Kinda surprised it hasnt been closed by a mod yet.


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## Blackdude (Feb 28, 2003)

italianstylzzz said:


> Intresting write up, i never said dimensions are not a factor it was main factor based on standard dimensions, as per my original post,... 10-15 rule with piranha is right, all depends on the person, me personally, like iv said,I like more water and space for the fish, i find it better for the fish, personal prefrence


Yep, but don't mess up people with your rule with communauty fish like reds !

First of all 10 or 15 gallons per inch of fish is alots in communauty tank

So let do the math with 5 gallons per inch of fish :

5 x 3inch red = 75G
10 x 3inch red = 150G
5 x 6 inch red = 150G
10 x 6 inch red = 300G
5 x 9 inch red = 225G
10 x 9 inch red = 450G
5 x 12 inch red = 300G
10 x 12 inch red = 600G

I will say 2 gallons per inch of fish is big enough

5 x 3inch red = 30G
10 x 3inch red = 60G
5 x 6 inch red = 60G
10 x 6inch red = 120G
5 x 9 inch red = 90G
10 x 9inch red = 180G
5 x 12 inch red = 120G
10 x 12 inch red = 240G

If we are ready to give 120G to a 12inch rhom with the 10 gallons per inch of fish rule, we are ready to give the same space for 5 x 12 inch red communauty tank

It just another way to calculate the 20 gallons per Piranha rule...
You got 10 x 12 inch x 2(G Rule) red, you need a 200G
You have 10 adult red x 20 gallon per fish = 200G


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Ibanez247 said:


> Apparently no matter what we say italianstylzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz is going to just keep arguing. Remember he has a 1/4 million dollar house so he must be smart. Like Britany Spears, ya know she has a 7 million dollar house so she must be a god damn genius. I agree with Black footprint over actual gallons. I have six 8"+ pygos in a 125 that measures 6'x2'x18"tall. They dont need height they need area. the whole 1" per gallon is jsut a general rule there is no set you must have X size tank to X size fish or will die. And the whole your fish wont be happy thing, hate to break it to ya but fish dont have emotions. They can get pyshically stressed but they dont care if they have 1 million gallons or 20gallons to swim around in. This thread is jsut way out of control. He just keeps repeating what hes said 100 times. Kinda surprised it hasnt been closed by a mod yet.


Dumb comment from a dumb person, what anyones concern of what someone can afford or not afford is not anyones bussiness, if you read, the comment was in direct retaliation to me, as i can not afford something,... go read,... he deserved the answer in order to set him in place,..... now your even dumber comment, about a famous person not being a genius??? how that plays into place is not even a question....shes richer than me,... and more than likely richer than you, so really whos laughing, you or her??? just shut your mouth of nothing you do not know. I spoke my opinions and my opinions are what i feel, your free to speak your mind,.... a typical community fish are not piranha, regardless of how you look at it,...yes community with sole species, but not others,... there demands and food they eat is differnt from a typical "community" fish. all piranha require heavier filtration opposed to lets say a school of 100 danios.. or other community type fish, there eating behaviour is differnt and anatomically differnt fish. now another comment,,, fish dont have emotions,.... do you know that??? no one does do not answer a question, not even the brightest in this world know nothing about. And im pretty sure, you dont fall in the bright catergory,.....


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Not sure why this would be closed...it is an interesting topic.

I stock my tanks based on how the fish reacts to its environment...and the tanks general feel. My personal opinion is that if someone needs a rule to know how many fish they can keep in a tank....then they are either very new to the hobby...or they keep these fish for decoration only. If you pay attention to the fish's behavior...you can tell if he is comfortable or scared shitless. Hell....I turned off the powerhead in my rhoms tank one day...cant remember why....and he started trashing the entire tank until I turned it back on....and then he went back to swimming in the current. Some fish will never be comfortable in a box...but if you pay attention....most will let you know when they are somewhat content.

Oh&#8230;and Piranha TeAcH is a biology teacher&#8230;.I doubt he would need to read more on this topic.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Grosse Gurke said:


> Not sure why this would be closed...it is an interesting topic.
> 
> I stock my tanks based on how the fish reacts to its environment...and the tanks general feel. My personal opinion is that if someone needs a rule to know how many fish they can keep in a tank....then they are either very new to the hobby...or they keep these fish for decoration only. If you pay attention to the fish's behavior...you can tell if he is comfortable or scared shitless. Hell....I turned off the powerhead in my rhoms tank one day...cant remember why....and he started trashing the entire tank until I turned it back on....and then he went back to swimming in the current. Some fish will never be comfortable in a box...but if you pay attention....most will let you know when they are somewhat content.
> 
> Oh&#8230;and Piranha TeAcH is a biology teacher&#8230;.I doubt he would need to read more on this topic.


Really, then his thesis of fish not drinking water is wrong,.... that i am sure of







and i will be more than happy to send him somewhere to learn that.

Now your idea of stock your tanks based on how fish react is your thing, not mine,... again i feel differntly on this subject, a rule again is how someone feels, piranha live in waters up to 20 feet deep,... yet community fish like danios and neons and other fish, will live majority of there lives in a few inches of water,... so the requirements of a fish, for space is different for a species or type or group of fish,... so i would have to say that is inaccurate.., i like to keep my very happy 4.5" manueli in a 125 gallon tank, that does not make it that i have it just for decoration, there you are wrong. Also your comment of turning light off, and it trashed the tank,... fish are known to be active at night, it "could" be mimicing its natural activity,... for instance some people here say there fish eats when lights are out but not when they are on,... why?? its the natural life of a piranha...


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I wouldnt know...Im not a biologist.

One thing I have found interesting over the last few days is how your "simple rule is and always will remain, 15 gallons per inch of fish." hasn't really remained at all&#8230;but has continually changed when people have brought up its flaws. And to say it is the rule for large rhoms&#8230;.thats just silly. Continually changing the rule from 5 gallons to 15 gallons depending on the kind of fish doesn't sound that simple. I also have a 2" rhom in a 12 gallon cube and I have a hard time finding him in there he has so much room. He is also an interactive little dude and goes nuts for brine shrimp.


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## Pit_man (Sep 13, 2008)

italianstylzzz said:


> Not sure why this would be closed...it is an interesting topic.
> 
> I stock my tanks based on how the fish reacts to its environment...and the tanks general feel. My personal opinion is that if someone needs a rule to know how many fish they can keep in a tank....then they are either very new to the hobby...or they keep these fish for decoration only. If you pay attention to the fish's behavior...you can tell if he is comfortable or scared shitless. Hell....I turned off the powerhead in my rhoms tank one day...cant remember why....and he started trashing the entire tank until I turned it back on....and then he went back to swimming in the current. Some fish will never be comfortable in a box...but if you pay attention....most will let you know when they are somewhat content.
> 
> Oh&#8230;and Piranha TeAcH is a biology teacher&#8230;.I doubt he would need to read more on this topic.


Really, then his thesis of fish not drinking water is wrong,.... that i am sure of







and i will be more than happy to send him somewhere to learn that.

Now your idea of stock your tanks based on how fish react is your thing, not mine,... again i feel differntly on this subject, a rule again is how someone feels, piranha live in waters up to 20 feet deep,... yet community fish like danios and neons and other fish, will live majority of there lives in a few inches of water,... so the requirements of a fish, for space is different for a species or type or group of fish,... so i would have to say that is inaccurate.., i like to keep my very happy 4.5" manueli in a 125 gallon tank, that does not make it that i have it just for decoration, there you are wrong. Also your comment of turning light off, and it trashed the tank,... fish are known to be active at night, it "could" be mimicing its natural activity,... for instance some people here say there fish eats when lights are out but not when they are on,... why?? its the natural life of a piranha...
[/quote]

he said powerhead not light.. read a lil closer as you keep telling everyone else to do


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

italianstylzzz said:


> Now your idea of stock your tanks based on how fish react is your thing, not mine,... again i feel differntly on this subject, a rule again is how someone feels, piranha live in waters up to 20 feet deep,... yet community fish like danios and neons and other fish, will live majority of there lives in a few inches of water,... so the requirements of a fish, for space is different for a species or type or group of fish,... so i would have to say that is inaccurate.., i like to keep my very happy 4.5" manueli in a 125 gallon tank, that does not make it that i have it just for decoration, there you are wrong. Also your comment of turning light off, and it trashed the tank,... fish are known to be active at night, it "could" be mimicing its natural activity,... for instance some people here say there fish eats when lights are out but not when they are on,... why?? its the natural life of a piranha...


It is hard to keep up with you because you keep editing your posts.

Anyways...it was his powerhead I shut off...not the lights...might want to take your own advice about reading. This rhom eats out of my hand...he doesnt care about lights. As far as them eating at night...I dont necessarily think this is a natural activity. I dont feed any of my fish at night and they all eat. People have success feeding at night with new fish while they are acclimating to their environment. These fish are opportunistic feeders....so in the wild I am not sure it matters if it is day or night when they feed.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Grosse Gurke said:


> I wouldnt know...Im not a biologist.
> 
> One thing I have found interesting over the last few days is how your "simple rule is and always will remain, 15 gallons per inch of fish." hasn't really remained at all&#8230;but has continually changed when people have brought up its flaws. And to say it is the rule for large rhoms&#8230;.thats just silly. Continually changing the rule from 5 gallons to 15 gallons depending on the kind of fish doesn't sound that simple. I also have a 2" rhom in a 12 gallon cube and I have a hard time finding him in there he has so much room. He is also an interactive little dude and goes nuts for brine shrimp.


basis of this whole topic was a large rhom, 15" and i stuck with 15 gallons per inch..... now when others start asking other hypothetical questions of which the topic was not intended for, of course it would be alterd, absolute lowest i would go for a piranha, is 10-15 and that i said,... 5??? where never said 5... find me 5,.. other than refering to someones comment about swordtails or neons, or watever they wanted to throw??? and my correction, yes it is true,... i made the mistake of interpreting light opposed to current.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Well...I decided to look into fish drinking water and it seems that saltwater fish do in fact drink water...however freshwater fish do not. They absorb water through their skin and gills. I guess Piranha TeAcH might know a little something after all.

Nature questions from Kids 


> Freshwater fish do not actively drink water, but absorb the water through their skin and gills. On the other hand, saltwater fish do actively drink sea water. Their gills process the water and take out the salt.





italianstylzzz said:


> basis of this whole topic was a large rhom, 15" and i stuck with 15 gallons per inch..... now when others start asking other hypothetical questions of which the topic was not intended for, of course it would be alterd, absolute lowest i would go for a piranha, is 10-15 and that i said,... 5??? where never said 5... find me 5,.. other than refering to someones comment about swordtails or neons, or watever they wanted to throw??? and my correction, yes it is true,... i made the mistake of interpreting light opposed to current.


Well a rule isnt really that simple if you need to continually change it depending on the size and species of the fish. My rule for a 10" rhom is simiple and always will be 7.5 gallons per inch! My rule for a 2" rhom is simiple and always will be 6 gallons per inch! My rule for a 4" elongatus is simiple and always will be 18.75 gallons per inch!

Seems like it would be easier to just toss out a tank size you think would work instead of calling it a rule.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Grosse Gurke said:


> basis of this whole topic was a large rhom, 15" and i stuck with 15 gallons per inch..... now when others start asking other hypothetical questions of which the topic was not intended for, of course it would be alterd, absolute lowest i would go for a piranha, is 10-15 and that i said,... 5??? where never said 5... find me 5,.. other than refering to someones comment about swordtails or neons, or watever they wanted to throw??? and my correction, yes it is true,... i made the mistake of interpreting light opposed to current.


Well a rule isnt really that simple if you need to continually change it depending on the size and species of the fish. My rule for a 10" rhom is simiple and always will be 7.5 gallons per inch! My rule for a 2" rhom is simiple and always will be 6 gallons per inch! My rule for a 4" elongatus is simiple and always will be 18.75 gallons per inch!

Seems like it would be easier to just toss out a tank size you think would work instead of calling it a rule.
[/quote]

5- 10 - 15 is not a simple rule to remember 3 numbers???,... come on man, stop making your life and mine complicated when its not


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

italianstylzzz said:


> Not sure why this would be closed...it is an interesting topic.
> Oh&#8230;and Piranha TeAcH is a biology teacher&#8230;.I doubt he would need to read more on this topic.


Really, then his thesis of fish not drinking water is wrong,.... that i am sure of







and i will be more than happy to send him somewhere to learn that. [/quote]
You said they drink water...not absorb water....drink. You were wrong...and PT corrected you like you were in his class


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Grosse Gurke said:


> Well his comment he said yesterday, was they do not NEED too,.... freshwater fish absorb water constantly and flush it constantly through urination, his comment contradicted what he said in his post to me, not the post he wrote elsewhere


Go back and reread his post....it very clearly explains the process. You said fish drink water...he corrected you and said they dont need to drink it. Why dont they need to drink water you might ask? Because they absorb it. Come on dude...you are once again grasping at anything to show that while you tried to belittle all of us with your biology class on the production of ammonia...it was you that might just need to read a little bit more.
[/quote]

Now your penny pinching little things, drinking water was meant as in intaking water, drinking or absorbing it has same result, and i even corrected, to be more specific, again read my response,.... again your trying to grab things to disprove what im saying, i was on the right lines, your interpreting it a differnt way to prove something that isnt true, and the only refrence i made to drinking was humans not fish in the post he responded too. also where in the lesson did i say FISH DRINK??????????? freshwater fish for that mater.


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## xeloR (Jan 2, 2009)

I think the fact of the mater is that GG knows what he's talking about (the guy has had just about every Piranha) *.*

I've always had the best success keeping a shoal of pygo's or a solo serra in an appropriate sized tank. Too much space and the fish seem to be skittish. This gallon/ inch per fish calculation is rubbish IMO


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

mtuttle02 said:


> I think the fact of the mater is that GG knows what he's talking about (the guy has had just about every Piranha) *.*
> 
> I've always had the best success keeping a shoal of pygo's or a solo serra in an appropriate sized tank. Too much space and the fish seem to be skittish. This gallon/ inch per fish calculation is rubbish IMO


everyone is entitled to there opinions, i for one prefer a large tank for LARGE fish or fishes.


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## 1rhom (Nov 6, 2009)

Personally, if I had a 10" rhom I would prefer to have it in a 125g than a 90g.


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## Piranha Guru (Nov 24, 2005)

italianstylzzz said:


> Fresh water fish dont drink water, i know, ive studied this in school. water is absorbed and is flushed out its system regularly. (Salt water fish work totaly opposite). They urinate regardless, they will urinate more frequently when digesting food, but still urinate regularly. Read more on a fishes biology the differnce with how a fresh water fish takes its water source is differnt from us, but essentially its for the same perpose. when deprived of food, your body will and a fishes body will, look for stored energy that energy is still broken down like everything u ingest, and your body will still produce ammonia, just like your body will still produce stomach acids, without food. fishes, mammals all work on the same principal., all living beings require water, humans fish plants, and they are needed day to day in order to survive, a fishes body is 70% water just like us . Now the only point i was getting across was the comment that fish dont create ammonia, when not fed... which is false, they are continously filtering their bodies with water at all times. They will urinate up to 10 times there bodyweight in one day, saltwater fish on other hand do much less.


I'm not arguing that fish or people aren't constantly producing metabolic waste (in this case ammonia)...my point was that the amount processed and excreted varies based on several factors. You seemed focused on the amount of water...amount of water doesn't correlate to more ammonia, more metabolic waste being processed does. Freshwater fish may excrete urine more frequently, but it is much more dilute (lower in ammonia concentration) than saltwater fish. Saltwater fish live in a hypertonic environment and must compensate for that. Their urine is much more concentrated as a result. Same thing happens to people on a hot day when they don't drink water...their urine is much more concentrated and they go less often. It doesn't mean that they excreted less ammonia than a different day when they decided that they'd better drink more water while keeping activity levels and food intake the same. They'll urinate more often and/or in higher volume, but the ammonia concentration will be similar.

In short, a greater amount of urine does not necessarily equal more ammonia...ammonia levels are all about the concentration!


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Piranha TeAcH said:


> Fresh water fish dont drink water, i know, ive studied this in school. water is absorbed and is flushed out its system regularly. (Salt water fish work totaly opposite). They urinate regardless, they will urinate more frequently when digesting food, but still urinate regularly. Read more on a fishes biology the differnce with how a fresh water fish takes its water source is differnt from us, but essentially its for the same perpose. when deprived of food, your body will and a fishes body will, look for stored energy that energy is still broken down like everything u ingest, and your body will still produce ammonia, just like your body will still produce stomach acids, without food. fishes, mammals all work on the same principal., all living beings require water, humans fish plants, and they are needed day to day in order to survive, a fishes body is 70% water just like us . Now the only point i was getting across was the comment that fish dont create ammonia, when not fed... which is false, they are continously filtering their bodies with water at all times. They will urinate up to 10 times there bodyweight in one day, saltwater fish on other hand do much less.


I'm not arguing that fish or people aren't constantly producing metabolic waste (in this case ammonia)...my point was that the amount processed and excreted varies based on several factors. You seemed focused on the amount of water...amount of water doesn't correlate to more ammonia, more metabolic waste being processed does. Freshwater fish may excrete urine more frequently, but it is much more dilute (lower in ammonia concentration) than saltwater fish. Saltwater fish live in a hypertonic environment and must compensate for that. Their urine is much more concentrated as a result. Same thing happens to people on a hot day when they don't drink water...their urine is much more concentrated and they go less often. It doesn't mean that they excreted less ammonia than a different day when they decided that they'd better drink more water while keeping activity levels and food intake the same. They'll urinate more often and/or in higher volume, but the ammonia concentration will be similar.

In short, a greater amount of urine does not necessarily equal more ammonia...ammonia levels are all about the concentration!
[/quote]

was not based on water whatsoever, it was just an example, that regardles, ammonia will be produced. Water consumption was just based on recommended daily intake, On the human side,... all i was getting across, was that when a person or fish does not eat, it will still urinate, and there will still be ammonia in the urine. Im just saying, waste is always there, aslong there is a source of water. Now the concentration of ammonia, will be fractional without the "major" source, (food) but it is always present.


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## arok3000 (Nov 28, 2009)

Wow. I read the whole thing!

Basically Italianstylezzz simple and easy rule to follow is that any 15" Rhom should be kept in a 225 gallon tank - in his opinion.

I did notice the discrepancy where he bounced back and forth between 10 and 15 gallons, on a case basis, and then added in 5 gallons upon discussion of other fish.
I wonder what his take on a Pleco is? they are much larger polluters that any Piranha I have kept.

And despite his ability to demand everyone read carefully he sure misread that powerhead comment confusing it with light.


italianstylzzz said:


> Really, then his thesis of fish not drinking water is wrong,.... that i am sure of
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now considering you apparently read extensively, I request documentation of any published work that says Piranhas eat at night in their natural environment.
From everything I have ever read, they do not, and to quote David M. Schleser "The hunting activities of the larger predatory species apparently peak during the hours of dawn and dusk. I have never caught a piranha of any species on hook and line when fishing at night".


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

arok3000 said:


> Now considering you apparently read extensively, I request documentation of any published work that says Piranhas eat at night in their natural environment.
> From everything I have ever read, they do not, and to quote David M. Schleser "The hunting activities of the larger predatory species apparently peak during the hours of dawn and dusk. I have never caught a piranha of any species on hook and line when fishing at night".


I wonder if they shutdown at night like they do in my aquariums. When I go into my fishroom at night and turn on the light...my fish are all chin down in the substrate and appear to be out cold. If they react to me at all...it is very sluggish.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

arok3000 said:


> Really, then his thesis of fish not drinking water is wrong,.... that i am sure of
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now considering you apparently read extensively, I request documentation of any published work that says Piranhas eat at night in their natural environment.
From everything I have ever read, they do not, and to quote David M. Schleser "The hunting activities of the larger predatory species apparently peak during the hours of dawn and dusk. I have never caught a piranha of any species on hook and line when fishing at night".
[/quote]

dawn and dusk,... when the lights go out,, and when the lights go up,... its still dark,... its not daytime,... and hense, peak,...







the onset of darkness is needed,.. its all on how you interpret it.









and considering, that majority of people made the mistake, of not reading, and i made one mistake,... well, odds are in my court arnt they??? and pleco, larger polluter in what regard??? all fish produce differnt concentrations of ammonia, we already touched that subject,..cant compare a fish that eats vegtables opposed to a fish that eats meats??? and nuts??? in some cases.... your not making any sense pal,... back your sh*t up with something proven cuz all you got is a bunch of hot air,


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Grosse Gurke said:


> Now considering you apparently read extensively, I request documentation of any published work that says Piranhas eat at night in their natural environment.
> From everything I have ever read, they do not, and to quote David M. Schleser "The hunting activities of the larger predatory species apparently peak during the hours of dawn and dusk. I have never caught a piranha of any species on hook and line when fishing at night".


I wonder if they shutdown at night like they do in my aquariums. When I go into my fishroom at night and turn on the light...my fish are all chin down in the substrate and appear to be out cold. If they react to me at all...it is very sluggish.
[/quote]

odds are you feed your fish during daylight every day??? i would assume they would have gotten use to that by now???? hense why they wouldnt even bother scavenging and hungting in the dim light, or no light for that matter. case in point all our fish are no longer in the wild, we can mimic it, but never the same.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

italianstylzzz said:


> odds are you feed your fish during daylight every day??? i would assume they would have gotten use to that by now???? hense why they wouldnt even bother scavenging and hungting in the dim light, or no light for that matter. case in point all our fish are no longer in the wild, we can mimic it, but never the same.


No...I feed my fish once or twice a week. Sometimes during the day....or if I forget...I will toss in food at night. I dont wait around to see when they eat...I just check on them in the next day or two and the food is gone.

This isnt a conditioned response because I would expect that only from fish I had kept for a while....this happens with fish straight out out of the wild.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Grosse Gurke said:


> your not making any sense pal,... back your sh*t up with something proven cuz all you got is a bunch of hot air,


Dude...you have not backed one thing up in this entire discussion. It is all your "Opinion" remember. You said fish are active at night...he proved you to be wrong...end of story. This is beginning to be a continual thing. You spout off about something you know nothing about....someone corrects you.....you blame it on our reading skills and interpretation.
[/quote]

dusk= onset of darkness......followed by hours of darkness... followed by dawn= sunrise,.... its still dark down there!! do i need to teach you how sunlight works.... between those hours of darkness, what are they doing??? , fish are more active at night, onset of darkness,.... your just trying to find differnt wording to prove me wrong when your not,... like come one f*ck, im not a child


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## Pit_man (Sep 13, 2008)

italianstylzzz said:


> your not making any sense pal,... back your sh*t up with something proven cuz all you got is a bunch of hot air,


Dude...you have not backed one thing up in this entire discussion. It is all your "Opinion" remember. You said fish are active at night...he proved you to be wrong...end of story. This is beginning to be a continual thing. You spout off about something you know nothing about....someone corrects you.....you blame it on our reading skills and interpretation.
[/quote]

dusk= onset of darkness......followed by hours of darkness... followed by dawn= sunrise,.... its still dark down there!! do i need to teach you how sunlight works.... between those hours of darkness, what are they doing??? , fish are more active at night, onset of darkness,.... your just trying to find differnt wording to prove me wrong when your not,... like come one f*ck, im not a child
[/quote]

i havnt fished for piranha but i bet if you ask anyone who has.. im sure they are just like other preditory fish (lm bass ect..) they are MOST active in the morn and evening but will feed ALL DAY.. they will vry rarly feed at night but like all preditors im sure they are opportunistic and feed when a easy meal is avaliable.. i think these fish just like bass ect hunt off sight.. not like catfish ect that look for food more off smell then sight cause its dark LOL

if you have kept piranhas and catfish in tanks you can see the differance.. my piranhas will look around on the bottom.. almost testing diff rocks to see if its the lil peice of food they dropped.. now catfish i have kept dont need to do that, they dont even need to see where the food was dropped and will go strait to it.. they are a night hunter and feed off smell

catfish feed more off smell.. im not saying i dont think piranhas cant smell at all.. im saying it isnt there hunting technique


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Pit_man said:


> your not making any sense pal,... back your sh*t up with something proven cuz all you got is a bunch of hot air,


Dude...you have not backed one thing up in this entire discussion. It is all your "Opinion" remember. You said fish are active at night...he proved you to be wrong...end of story. This is beginning to be a continual thing. You spout off about something you know nothing about....someone corrects you.....you blame it on our reading skills and interpretation.
[/quote]

dusk= onset of darkness......followed by hours of darkness... followed by dawn= sunrise,.... its still dark down there!! do i need to teach you how sunlight works.... between those hours of darkness, what are they doing??? , fish are more active at night, onset of darkness,.... your just trying to find differnt wording to prove me wrong when your not,... like come one f*ck, im not a child
[/quote]

i havnt fished for piranha but i bet if you ask anyone who has.. im sure they are just like other preditory fish (lm bass ect..) they are MOST active in the morn and evening but will feed ALL DAY.. they will vry rarly feed at night but like all preditors im sure they are opportunistic and feed when a easy meal is avaliable.. i think these fish just like bass ect hunt off sight.. not like catfish ect that look for food more off smell then sight cause its dark LOL

its all differnt,... mainly predetory fish, like for instance walleye up here in canada, will hunt and scavange at night, hense why people fish them at night., pike are known likewise, but also noticed, in the wild, even when fishing, moonlight plays a part, for some reason they bite even harder, and more frequent

if you have kept piranhas and catfish in tanks you can see the differance.. my piranhas will look around on the bottom.. almost testing diff rocks to see if its the lil peice of food they dropped.. now catfish i have kept dont need to do that, they dont even need to see where the food was dropped and will go strait to it.. they are a night hunter and feed off smell
[/quote]


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## arok3000 (Nov 28, 2009)

italianstylzzz said:


> your not making any sense pal,... back your sh*t up with something proven cuz all you got is a bunch of hot air,


Dude...you have not backed one thing up in this entire discussion. It is all your "Opinion" remember. You said fish are active at night...he proved you to be wrong...end of story. This is beginning to be a continual thing. You spout off about something you know nothing about....someone corrects you.....you blame it on our reading skills and interpretation.
[/quote]

dusk= onset of darkness......followed by hours of darkness... followed by dawn= sunrise,.... its still dark down there!! do i need to teach you how sunlight works.... between those hours of darkness, what are they doing??? , fish are more active at night, onset of darkness,.... your just trying to find differnt wording to prove me wrong when your not,... like come one f*ck, im not a child
[/quote]

From that same paragraph, "At night, piranhas have been observed resting quietly among plant roots and submerged logs and branches".

Seems very much in line with what GG, and undoubtedly many other members, have observed.

To be honest, I don't think you had some bad points.
I don't agree with any formula as none of them take into account fish activity, diet, etc. They are just generalizations.
My big problem is you're coming off as some know-it-all based on, what is quickly becoming apparent, the very limited amount of reasearch you have done on what is now multiple subjects.
You don't appear to have much first hand experience other than your single specimen kept in a tank of your choosing.
That is very narrow minded in my opinion.

In my younger days, I had kept a single Betta Splendens in a 1 gallon tank.
Can it survive in there? Sure! Will it thrive in there? No.
But if I started spouting off about how 1 gallon per fish is now some no-nonsense, no limits rule, then everyone else would be jumping on my back also.

Just swallow your pride and we'll all get over this that much quicker.
Or continue to look dumb in front of your peers. You decide.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

italianstylzzz said:


> your not making any sense pal,... back your sh*t up with something proven cuz all you got is a bunch of hot air,


Dude...you have not backed one thing up in this entire discussion. It is all your "Opinion" remember. You said fish are active at night...he proved you to be wrong...end of story. This is beginning to be a continual thing. You spout off about something you know nothing about....someone corrects you.....you blame it on our reading skills and interpretation.
[/quote]

dusk= onset of darkness......followed by hours of darkness... followed by dawn= sunrise,.... its still dark down there!! do i need to teach you how sunlight works.... between those hours of darkness, what are they doing??? , fish are more active at night, onset of darkness,.... your just trying to find differnt wording to prove me wrong when your not,... like come one f*ck, im not a child
[/quote]

i havnt fished for piranha but i bet if you ask anyone who has.. im sure they are just like other preditory fish (lm bass ect..) they are MOST active in the morn and evening but will feed ALL DAY.. they will vry rarly feed at night but like all preditors im sure they are opportunistic and feed when a easy meal is avaliable.. i think these fish just like bass ect hunt off sight.. not like catfish ect that look for food more off smell then sight cause its dark LOL

*its all differnt,... mainly predetory fish, like for instance walleye up here in canada, will hunt and scavange at night, hense why people fish them at night., pike are known likewise, but also noticed, in the wild, even when fishing, moonlight plays a part, for some reason they bite even harder, and more frequent*

if you have kept piranhas and catfish in tanks you can see the differance.. my piranhas will look around on the bottom.. almost testing diff rocks to see if its the lil peice of food they dropped.. now catfish i have kept dont need to do that, they dont even need to see where the food was dropped and will go strait to it.. they are a night hunter and feed off smell
[/quote]

[/quote]

walleye have different patterns than most other predatory fish... their eyes are adapted for low/no light conditions and that is when they are active and looking for food, which is why the walleye bite is amazing at night. northern pike, bass, etc. are not active at night, the best time to catch them is during the day when they are looking for food...

piranhas aren't active at night, that's why they are colorless and motionless in the early morning before your lights come on, just as GG described. it has nothing to do with being "trained", that's why fresh imports act the same way and that's why some people have had success with nocturnal catfish in their piranha tanks... the cats hide during the day then come out and pretty much have free roam of the tank at night.

this is an interesting topic, i just haven't heard anything to back up your way of thinking.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

arok3000 said:


> your not making any sense pal,... back your sh*t up with something proven cuz all you got is a bunch of hot air,


Dude...you have not backed one thing up in this entire discussion. It is all your "Opinion" remember. You said fish are active at night...he proved you to be wrong...end of story. This is beginning to be a continual thing. You spout off about something you know nothing about....someone corrects you.....you blame it on our reading skills and interpretation.
[/quote]

dusk= onset of darkness......followed by hours of darkness... followed by dawn= sunrise,.... its still dark down there!! do i need to teach you how sunlight works.... between those hours of darkness, what are they doing??? , fish are more active at night, onset of darkness,.... your just trying to find differnt wording to prove me wrong when your not,... like come one f*ck, im not a child
[/quote]

From that same paragraph, "At night, piranhas have been observed resting quietly among plant roots and submerged logs and branches".

Seems very much in line with what GG, and undoubtedly many other members, have observed.

To be honest, I don't think you had some bad points.
I don't agree with any formula as none of them take into account fish activity, diet, etc. They are just generalizations.
My big problem is you're coming off as some know-it-all based on, what is quickly becoming apparent, the very limited amount of reasearch you have done on what is now multiple subjects.
You don't appear to have much first hand experience other than your single specimen kept in a tank of your choosing.
That is very narrow minded in my opinion.

In my younger days, I had kept a single Betta Splendens in a 1 gallon tank.
Can it survive in there? Sure! Will it thrive in there? No.
But if I started spouting off about how 1 gallon per fish is now some no-nonsense, no limits rule, then everyone else would be jumping on my back also.

Just swallow your pride and we'll all get over this that much quicker.
Or continue to look dumb in front of your peers. You decide.
[/quote]

Iv had rhoms, sanchezi, comp, and now a manny,... i am by no means saying im a know it all, this was started with my opinion on a 15" RHOM and from there balloned to i dont know how to size a tank??? like come on, if people are gonna bash and question, i will give my answers, i know from personal experience and what i have learned, when they are active, you dont agree with me, fine!!! and again, your betta talking about a species of fish, that lives in mud flats and rice pads,..... it can live with little water because it poses"s a labrinth( it will breath air out of water). I have knowledge of fish, and a variety of species,.... and that fish in particular can live in extremes, due to where its found hense why they are sold in cups







and with a female in a one gallon, yes it will breed,... again, this forum was strictly my opinion on, 15gal per inch on that 15 inch rhom, from there, people question ,,, What about this, and that , and this,... of course im gonna answer. . from a 15 inch piranha in a min 180 tank by my judgement, i got some knob asking about his swordtails,... then another donkey asking about neons,... then another dumbass, who says fish dont create waste when they dont eat or the best one, i cant afford a tank because someone took it upon themselves to say i have no money???? ,... ok pal,... so what am i supposed to do, just sit there ,... no i wont. If someone feels there answer is correct and i know its wrong, i will correct them.... they asked me the question,... this whole thing was a load of questions questioning me!!! go look at every post!!!


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## arok3000 (Nov 28, 2009)

So you've owned a comp, rhom, manny, but not a single Pygo species yet you claim they still require 15 gallons per inch.

There is definately the law of diminishing returns once you get a shoal of fish in there.

I'm not saying your logic is wrong about a single 15" rhom.
I think it got out of hand when you claimed your rule to apply to every species regardless of shoal size, species, and variables including diet activity etc.
That is when everyone jumped in and started citing rediculous examples, which by your general rule, were rediculous results.

I agree that there is a certain amount of water required to create a stable water column. Filtration will also play a HUGE part in that, of which, the tanks occupants and decor, plants included, play a huge part.
There is also a point where more water will not have any noticeable effect on quality.
Everyone got on your case because you are defiantely standing by your rule.

Here is your rule: I THINK A 15" RHOM SHOULD BE KEPT IN A MINIMUM 225 GALLON TANK.
There is nothing more to that opinion. If you have a 4.5" Sanchezi this rule does not apply. A shoal of Natts does not apply either.
As GG has explained, you can adjust a water column on an as needed basis without any detrimental results.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

[quote name='arok3000' post='2490166' date='Jan 22 2010, 08:08 PM']So you've owned a comp, rhom, manny, but not a single Pygo species yet you claim they still require 15 gallons per inch.

There is definately the law of diminishing returns once you get a shoal of fish in there.

I'm not saying your logic is wrong about a single 15" rhom.
I think it got out of hand when you claimed your rule to apply to every species regardless of shoal size, species, and variables including diet activity etc.
That is when everyone jumped in and started citing rediculous examples, which by your general rule, were rediculous results.

I agree that there is a certain amount of water required to create a stable water column. Filtration will also play a HUGE part in that, of which, the tanks occupants and decor, plants included, play a huge part.
There is also a point where more water will not have any noticeable effect on quality.
Everyone got on your case because you are defiantely standing by your rule.

Here is your rule: I THINK A 15" RHOM SHOULD BE KEPT IN A MINIMUM 225 GALLON TANK.
There is nothing more to that opinion. If you have a 4.5" Sanchezi this rule does not apply. A shoal of Natts does not apply either.
As GG has explained, you can adjust a water column on an as needed basis without any detrimental results.

If you read the early posts, they were all about large fish, when asked about a colony of pygo's i said as low as 10 per inch,... thats what i beleive,... i didnt say 15 for every single fish, this was all about a large rhom and this very answer was answerd yesterday night, by another member confirming my claim that this was about refrence to a 15" rhom..... and i still went as low 180gal as min , which would mean less than 15 per inch, lowest i would go for pygo's is 10 and no less per inch,... thats the way i personally feel. No mention was made in respect to diets and activity because my tanks were good enough,... i never said dimensions played no factor, again, which was confirmed last night when my quotes were reviewd. hense why i said a 15" rhom will not turn properly in a 125 gallon tank. Now to sum it up, they all jumped in and cited rediculous examples by a 15 per gallon rule i placed on a 15"rhom???? to neons???? wow, those two fish do compare!!! f*cking pathetic if you ask me. and i never even answerd those questions because they were dumb to begin with. I told them to measure it themselves,... like f*ck, not even once did someone mention, for small community fish like neons, does the 15 per inch rule apply??,.... NOT ONE PERSON ASKED they just made jokes, and what not,... me personally small fish like those, would hit the 5per inch rule, hence where someone noted that,.... how a 5-10-15 rule is complicated??? i dont know..... fuckn 4 year olds can recite there 10 digit phone number, yet some people here who are supposed adults find a 3 number rule tough and complicated??? also more water = more swim space,.... nothing was mentioned about water quality,i would assume everyone who owns a piranha or piranhas would know the perpose and neccesity of a good filter, only thing mentioned about water quality was other than in event of power failure. So please, if i am contradicting myself, where i said OTHERWISE in a post show me and correct me please. which is possible, since i was answering people ever 10 seconds, and cant remember everything.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

joedizzlempls said:


> your not making any sense pal,... back your sh*t up with something proven cuz all you got is a bunch of hot air,


Dude...you have not backed one thing up in this entire discussion. It is all your "Opinion" remember. You said fish are active at night...he proved you to be wrong...end of story. This is beginning to be a continual thing. You spout off about something you know nothing about....someone corrects you.....you blame it on our reading skills and interpretation.
[/quote]

dusk= onset of darkness......followed by hours of darkness... followed by dawn= sunrise,.... its still dark down there!! do i need to teach you how sunlight works.... between those hours of darkness, what are they doing??? , fish are more active at night, onset of darkness,.... your just trying to find differnt wording to prove me wrong when your not,... like come one f*ck, im not a child
[/quote]

i havnt fished for piranha but i bet if you ask anyone who has.. im sure they are just like other preditory fish (lm bass ect..) they are MOST active in the morn and evening but will feed ALL DAY.. they will vry rarly feed at night but like all preditors im sure they are opportunistic and feed when a easy meal is avaliable.. i think these fish just like bass ect hunt off sight.. not like catfish ect that look for food more off smell then sight cause its dark LOL

*its all differnt,... mainly predetory fish, like for instance walleye up here in canada, will hunt and scavange at night, hense why people fish them at night., pike are known likewise, but also noticed, in the wild, even when fishing, moonlight plays a part, for some reason they bite even harder, and more frequent*

if you have kept piranhas and catfish in tanks you can see the differance.. my piranhas will look around on the bottom.. almost testing diff rocks to see if its the lil peice of food they dropped.. now catfish i have kept dont need to do that, they dont even need to see where the food was dropped and will go strait to it.. they are a night hunter and feed off smell
[/quote]

[/quote]

walleye have different patterns than most other predatory fish... their eyes are adapted for low/no light conditions and that is when they are active and looking for food, which is why the walleye bite is amazing at night. northern pike, bass, etc. are not active at night, the best time to catch them is during the day when they are looking for food...

piranhas aren't active at night, that's why they are colorless and motionless in the early morning before your lights come on, just as GG described. it has nothing to do with being "trained", that's why fresh imports act the same way and that's why some people have had success with nocturnal catfish in their piranha tanks... the cats hide during the day then come out and pretty much have free roam of the tank at night.

this is an interesting topic, i just haven't heard anything to back up your way of thinking.
[/quote]

Just to correct you that northn pike and muskie are commonly caught here at night, and some fishermen swear by it,... not to say they dont bite during the day, which is rare, usually is dawn and dusk, but night fishing is usually used for all 3 up here in ontario. and white cats of course, and as for piranha, all are active when dark, from what ive noticed. and some ecologists say they do, some say not,... again like this thread, the answers vary


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

i don't agree with that at all, i think you are trying to lump other predatory fish in with a specialized night predator to help reinforce your theory that piranhas are most active at night, which i also think is wrong.

it's really hard to discuss anything with you when you go back and edit every single post you make


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

joedizzlempls said:


> i don't agree with that at all, i think you are trying to lump other predatory fish in with a specialized night predator to help reinforce your theory that piranhas are most active at night, which i also think is wrong.
> 
> it's really hard to discuss anything with you when you go back and edit every single post you make


I edit to correct and add things, nothing wrong with that,... google ontario night fishing for all 3 species of fish??? if personally done night fishing, and all the times ive gone i personally caught only a bass and white cat,... but it is done,... if you beleive its wrong, thats your personal opinion, not mine, and there are people that will say the same thing,.. go look and dont base it what im saying, just LOOK Night fishing is common up here, walleye, muskie, pike,..... there are fish that still bite and snack at night


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

http://www.muskyal.com/Features/NightTime.htm there are many others, and thats an american website, not even canadian


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## jamezgt (Jun 24, 2008)

italianstylzzz said:


> i don't agree with that at all, i think you are trying to lump other predatory fish in with a specialized night predator to help reinforce your theory that piranhas are most active at night, which i also think is wrong.
> 
> it's really hard to discuss anything with you when you go back and edit every single post you make


I edit to correct and add things, nothing wrong with that,... google ontario night fishing for all 3 species of fish??? if personally done night fishing, and all the times ive gone i personally caught only a bass and white cat,... but it is done,... if you beleive its wrong, thats your personal opinion, not mine, and there are people that will say the same thing,.. go look and dont base it what im saying, just LOOK Night fishing is common up here, walleye, muskie, pike,..... there are fish that still bite and snack at night
[/quote]

I agree you catch walleye more at night, but they still bite during the day. All bout dat crank mudafucka.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

http://www.muskyal.com/Features/NightTime.htm there are many others, and thats an american website, not even canadian
http://www.gameandfishmag.com/fishing/musk...ing/RA_0806_01/



jamezgt said:


> i don't agree with that at all, i think you are trying to lump other predatory fish in with a specialized night predator to help reinforce your theory that piranhas are most active at night, which i also think is wrong.
> 
> it's really hard to discuss anything with you when you go back and edit every single post you make


I edit to correct and add things, nothing wrong with that,... google ontario night fishing for all 3 species of fish??? if personally done night fishing, and all the times ive gone i personally caught only a bass and white cat,... but it is done,... if you beleive its wrong, thats your personal opinion, not mine, and there are people that will say the same thing,.. go look and dont base it what im saying, just LOOK Night fishing is common up here, walleye, muskie, pike,..... there are fish that still bite and snack at night
[/quote]

I agree you catch walleye more at night, but they still bite during the day. All bout dat crank mudafucka.
[/quote]

walleye, muskie, pike, all can be fished at night

http://www.gameandfishmag.com/fishing/musk...ing/RA_0806_01/


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

i live in lake country in minnesota, i'm no stranger to walleye, muskie, and pike angling.... i just don't agree that they are more active at night unless we are talking about walleye. i also don't agree with you that piranhas are more active at night, nothing i have seen or heard about would back that up.


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## Pit_man (Sep 13, 2008)

italianstylzzz said:


> i don't agree with that at all, i think you are trying to lump other predatory fish in with a specialized night predator to help reinforce your theory that piranhas are most active at night, which i also think is wrong.
> 
> it's really hard to discuss anything with you when you go back and edit every single post you make


I edit to correct and add things, nothing wrong with that,... google ontario night fishing for all 3 species of fish??? if personally done night fishing, and all the times ive gone i personally caught only a bass and white cat,... but it is done,... if you beleive its wrong, thats your personal opinion, not mine, and there are people that will say the same thing,.. go look and dont base it what im saying, just LOOK
[/quote]

well when it comes to piranhas.. no information avalible other then other keepers like all of us here. as far as in the wild only a few ppl here have fished them in the wild.. we are just baseing our opinions on if they are a day or night feeder by our observations of the ones we keep. no one said they KNOW they are or arnt.. ur the only one seems to know it all in this or any fish keeping topic LOL


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Pit_man said:


> i don't agree with that at all, i think you are trying to lump other predatory fish in with a specialized night predator to help reinforce your theory that piranhas are most active at night, which i also think is wrong.
> 
> it's really hard to discuss anything with you when you go back and edit every single post you make


I edit to correct and add things, nothing wrong with that,... google ontario night fishing for all 3 species of fish??? if personally done night fishing, and all the times ive gone i personally caught only a bass and white cat,... but it is done,... if you beleive its wrong, thats your personal opinion, not mine, and there are people that will say the same thing,.. go look and dont base it what im saying, just LOOK
[/quote]

well when it comes to piranhas.. no information avalible other then other keepers like all of us here. as far as in the wild only a few ppl here have fished them in the wild.. we are just baseing our opinions on if they are a day or night feeder by our observations of the ones we keep. no one said they KNOW they are or arnt.. ur the only one seems to know it all in this or any fish keeping topic LOL
[/quote]

a few if any that have fished them here, its a predatory fish, and judging from other predatory fish and some not all piranha so called experts, and what i see in my tank during evenings, nothing leads ME to beleive they are not nightime stalkers. and correction, guy above you says believes they are not night hunters,....so no, im not the only one with an opinion ./...end of story


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

and a quick note, i never mentioned,... my good friend, whos dad is guyanese, born and raised there in berbice, told all of us stories of when the cows used to wander into the water at night, and would come out, with nipples bitten off. And whats even sadder, is the fact they are seen as a niuscance down there, and whenever one is caught, it is immediatly killed. And to this day, doesnt know why people collect such fish. They look at all these fish as vermin, also, they have differnt names for these fish. They dont call them as we know it


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

italianstylzzz said:


> a few if any that have fished them here, its a predatory fish, and judging from other predatory fish and some not all piranha so called experts, and what i see in my tank during evenings, nothing leads ME to beleive they are not nightime stalkers. and correction, guy above you says believes they are not night hunters,....so no, im not the only one with an opinion ./...end of story


if you are going to go back and edit anything, it should be this part right here... all the grammatical errors make it really hard to understand


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

Now considering you apparently read extensively, I request documentation of any published work that says Piranhas eat at night in their natural environment.
From everything I have ever read, they do not, and to quote David M. Schleser "The hunting activities of the larger predatory species apparently peak during the hours of dawn and dusk. I have never caught a piranha of any species on hook and line when fishing at night".
[/quote]

This is incorrect, I saw a documentary on Animal Planet; cant recall what the name was...something like "Searching for giant fish in the Amazon". Anyway, the guy was fishing all day to catch a big Arapaima Gigas (sp) and some other giant catfish and could not catch any b/c piranhas kept on eating his bait...than he tried at night and same thing piranhas ate his bait.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

joedizzlempls said:


> a few if any that have fished them here, its a predatory fish, and judging from other predatory fish and some not all piranha so called experts, and what i see in my tank during evenings, nothing leads ME to beleive they are not nightime stalkers. and correction, guy above you says believes they are not night hunters,....so no, im not the only one with an opinion ./...end of story


if you are going to go back and edit anything, it should be this part right here... all the grammatical errors make it really hard to understand
[/quote]

reffering to his quote,... a few if ANY people on here, have fished piranha, piranha are predatory fish , and judging from other predatory fish, and so calld piranha experts, and what i visually see in my tank during evening,... nothing leads ME to beleive they are not night time stalkers, and correction, .....................reffering to you, as you also believe you know for a fact opposite what i am saying,......... sorry but im making due with my ipod ,... it can be tough sometimes, and is partly why i correct myself alot.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

soul assasin your right, thats nigel marvins show i beleive, he also did a show on piranha, and stood in a pool of red breasts with blood in it,... but there was something that threw me off about that..

this is the video im talking about http://www.nigelmarven.com/film.asp?id=12

actually this is the one your are talking about river monsters, and its not nigel marvin.
http://animal.discovery.com/tv/river-monsters/

http://animal.discovery.com/videos/river-m...ranha-pool.html


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Soul Assassin said:


> *Now considering you apparently read extensively, I request documentation of any published work that says Piranhas eat at night in their natural environment.*
> *From everything I have ever read, they do not, and to quote David M. Schleser "The hunting activities of the larger predatory species apparently peak during the hours of dawn and dusk. I have never caught a piranha of any species on hook and line when fishing at night".
> *
> 
> This is incorrect, I saw a documentary on Animal Planet; cant recall what the name was...something like "Searching for giant fish in the Amazon". Anyway, the guy was fishing all day to catch a big Arapaima Gigas (sp) and some other giant catfish and could not catch any b/c piranhas kept on eating his bait...than he tried at night and same thing piranhas ate his bait.


How can you say the statement by David is incorrect? He is giving a first hand account of his experience when fishing for piranhas and he never uses a term like "Always" as some ignorant people have used in this thread....he simply says hunting activity "apparently" peak during the during the hours of dawn and dusk because he has never caught any species of piranha at night. How can that possibly be an incorrect statement? That is where people fail in this thread....tossing out rules and opinions as if they are fact...and they are based on zero experience. Your basing your opinion from what was said on a tv show...and he is talking about his experience when fishing for these fish. How someone can possibly say the best tank size for a 15" rhom is 180 gallons...or 240 gallons...or whatever....is like me saying the best tank for a 4' reef shark is 10,000 gallons...and the rule is 2,500 gallons per foot!! Now in reality I have no frickin idea what I am talking about because I have never had a 4' reef shark....BUT THATS MY RULE AND YOU CANT PROVE I AM WRONG!!!

It would be nice to have this discussion with people that have actually had these fish and get their opinion...than people that are just regurgitating what they heard on TV or read in some book.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

i choose tanks based on the individual fish... i do like to try my fish out in bigger tanks (relative to the size of the fish) first for the simple fact that i like aquascaping and i like to have some room to work, but i have had a few fish over the years that got stressed out in larger tanks and didn't start to come out of their shell until i put them into a smaller tank.

that skinny rhom that i got a couple years back wouldn't eat when i first got him, he hid in the corner of his tank for days until i decided to put him into a smaller 30 long, that's when he got comfortable and started eating and putting weight on, and his one month turn-around after getting him into a smaller tank, IMO, shows that some fish do feel more comfortable with a smaller tank. i had a similar experience with an elong, although the results weren't as drastic.


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## weerhom (Jan 12, 2007)

oh my god...just shut up and enjoy your fish already! lol


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## Pit_man (Sep 13, 2008)

x2

lol


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

After reading all of the thread, I've come to the conclusion that I have no conclusion. 7 pages on one topic must be a new record for the new year at P-fury. As for my opinion, I'll leave that to the opinions of those involved in this thread who obviously don't have a headache as I do from reading all this back and forth. Poor Dave is even brought into this thread as if you all personally know him or have any contact with him. I'm sure when he returns from the Amazon (he left today), he'll get a good laugh out of the silliness of this thread.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Finally I finished reading....

Just a small question to Italianstylzzz.
You know, last year I've read a great bunch of information on piranhas. Some resources of course, I found more reliable than others.

Now before being accused of sucking anyone's ass over here (believe me, I don't. I question everything and everyone untill I have about as many answers I can get and try to figure out which of them to believe and in that process I don't hesitate to argue with anyone, no matter how much experience they have).

However, some of the resources I consider highly reliable, usually don't talk about "rules", since there is so much more to explore that rules would have to be adapted on a daily base.
On most subjects, they either say "in my opinion after many years of study, I would advise you.... " or "after 25 years of keeping them I've learned that they might actually.... well at least that's what I noticed".
And of course I've heard many times the phrase "what goes for one fish, might be different for another".
Even on OPEFE, most remarks about tank size are formulated like "I would advise...".

Now would you be so kind to explain, how you seem to be able to create a generalized rule for ALL piranhas (actually all fish, but let's stick with piranhas) ?

Where did you have the opportunity to study that so much, for I think you might be the only one over here








Or did you just read several studies and believe you know everything after that ?

All in all I think you skipped a college in your schooldays.
THIS one


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## arok3000 (Nov 28, 2009)

I didnt neccessarily drag David into this.
I was simply quoting from his book, which I hold in high regard as one of the best resources on piranha at the moment.

He definately did not lay down any such rules, and all his opinions were stated as his opinions from first hand experience with these fish.

I have never been to the amazon or seen these species in their natural environment in person. I am referencing others who have and using that data.
By all means, I would love to see documentation of piranha being active at night, and then I'll agree with anyone who claims it.

But to say piranha are active at night because a specimen eats in it's aquarium when you turn the lights off is neither natural or scientific proof.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Lucien said:


> Finally I finished reading....
> 
> Just a small question to Italianstylzzz.
> You know, last year I've read a great bunch of information on piranhas. Some resources of course, I found more reliable than others.
> ...


judging by your comment you havent read everything,... my beleifs are what I feel, ... now if you need to know what the word belief means,... find a dictonary, or better yet, google it. I base it on what i find works, i base it on alot of factors, books and literature in all forms are used as guidance and i use it for my own assertions. there is nothing wrong with giving a fish more room, than what YOU feel is needed, NOTHING, prove me wrong about giving fish room! .. which is what a simpe 10-15 general rule for piranha is. You find the size excesive?,.. who cares, i dont!,... you feel that size i am giving wrong?, well if thats what you feel, then by all means make your own rules??? Your questioning MY rule, when by your comment, you shouldnt be questioning it in the first place, right??? All my posts say me and I... if those 3 letters are hard to comprehend what they mean,...well grammer school didnt do well for many people.

so to make this even easier, GG, close the thread, or better yet, remove my screen name in the thread header.. as that just adds to targeting someone.

End of story
enjoy your weekend


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Grosse Gurke said:


> *Now considering you apparently read extensively, I request documentation of any published work that says Piranhas eat at night in their natural environment.*
> *From everything I have ever read, they do not, and to quote David M. Schleser "The hunting activities of the larger predatory species apparently peak during the hours of dawn and dusk. I have never caught a piranha of any species on hook and line when fishing at night".
> *
> 
> This is incorrect, I saw a documentary on Animal Planet; cant recall what the name was...something like "Searching for giant fish in the Amazon". Anyway, the guy was fishing all day to catch a big Arapaima Gigas (sp) and some other giant catfish and could not catch any b/c piranhas kept on eating his bait...than he tried at night and same thing piranhas ate his bait.


How can you say the statement by David is incorrect? He is giving a first hand account of his experience when fishing for piranhas and he never uses a term like "Always" as some ignorant people have used in this thread....he simply says hunting activity "apparently" peak during the during the hours of dawn and dusk because he has never caught any species of piranha at night. How can that possibly be an incorrect statement? That is where people fail in this thread....tossing out rules and opinions as if they are fact...and they are based on zero experience. Your basing your opinion from what was said on a tv show...and he is talking about his experience when fishing for these fish. How someone can possibly say the best tank size for a 15" rhom is 180 gallons...or 240 gallons...or whatever....is like me saying the best tank for a 4' reef shark is 10,000 gallons...and the rule is 2,500 gallons per foot!! Now in reality I have no frickin idea what I am talking about because I have never had a 4' reef shark....BUT THATS MY RULE AND YOU CANT PROVE I AM WRONG!!!

It would be nice to have this discussion with people that have actually had these fish and get their opinion...than people that are just regurgitating what they heard on TV or read in some book.
[/quote]

Correction, it wasnt SAID on a t.v show, it was SHOWN and he was fishing,... watch the show :0.. and best tank size in my opinion and still stands, for a 15' rhom and up is minimum 180


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## Pit_man (Sep 13, 2008)

do you know what "end of story" meens? maybe you sould do some research on the term? LOL


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

Grosse Gurke said:


> *Now considering you apparently read extensively, I request documentation of any published work that says Piranhas eat at night in their natural environment.*
> *From everything I have ever read, they do not, and to quote David M. Schleser "The hunting activities of the larger predatory species apparently peak during the hours of dawn and dusk. I have never caught a piranha of any species on hook and line when fishing at night".
> *
> 
> This is incorrect, I saw a documentary on Animal Planet; cant recall what the name was...something like "Searching for giant fish in the Amazon". Anyway, the guy was fishing all day to catch a big Arapaima Gigas (sp) and some other giant catfish and could not catch any b/c piranhas kept on eating his bait...than he tried at night and same thing piranhas ate his bait.


How can you say the statement by David is incorrect? He is giving a first hand account of his experience when fishing for piranhas and he never uses a term like "Always" as some ignorant people have used in this thread....he simply says hunting activity "apparently" peak during the during the hours of dawn and dusk because he has never caught any species of piranha at night. How can that possibly be an incorrect statement? That is where people fail in this thread....tossing out rules and opinions as if they are fact...and they are based on zero experience. Your basing your opinion from what was said on a tv show...and he is talking about his experience when fishing for these fish. How someone can possibly say the best tank size for a 15" rhom is 180 gallons...or 240 gallons...or whatever....is like me saying the best tank for a 4' reef shark is 10,000 gallons...and the rule is 2,500 gallons per foot!! Now in reality I have no frickin idea what I am talking about because I have never had a 4' reef shark....BUT THATS MY RULE AND YOU CANT PROVE I AM WRONG!!!

It would be nice to have this discussion with people that have actually had these fish and get their opinion...than people that are just regurgitating what they heard on TV or read in some book.
[/quote]

GG, did you by any chance watch the documentary...David said "I have never caught a piranha of any species on hook and line when fishing at night". The guy in the documentary spent hours fishing at night and every time piranha stripped his bait, now unless it fell off dozens of times piranha were responsible for this as the guy keeps on stating. Further, I comprehend that David -who I never heard of before (no disrespect to David, I'm sure he's a nice guy)- is only stating what happened that time he was fishing and additionally never mentioned "Always etc." but the documentary speaks for itself. Piranha can be and are active at night, and do feed at night. Now, if you dont believe the documentary than I cant do anything about that.

So, the statement was correct when David was fishing but stands incorrect when the guy was fishing (he was not fishing for piranha btw). This means it was proven incorrect at least once and therefore is incorrect by default. Not to say that if David or anyone els was fishing for piranha at night that they would NOT take the bait again. It simply depends.

Listen, I'm not like Italianstylzzz (not disrespect) that will argue over and over about something. Believe what you want, and watch the documentary it's not that bad, I have not clicked on the links provided by Italianstylzzz (above )yet but it could have been River Monsters.

Regards, SA


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## TheCableGuy (Feb 22, 2005)

Everybody has their own opinions, now everybody just shut-up and enjoy keeping fish....whatever they might be, in whatever size tank they might be in!!


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Pit_man said:


> do you know what "end of story" meens? maybe you sould do some research on the term? LOL


yes i do actually, end of story because this thread is getting old


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## Pit_man (Sep 13, 2008)

you have said thet like 50 times tho lmfao

me thinks you rode the short bus :nod:


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Soul Assassin said:


> *Now considering you apparently read extensively, I request documentation of any published work that says Piranhas eat at night in their natural environment.*
> *From everything I have ever read, they do not, and to quote David M. Schleser "The hunting activities of the larger predatory species apparently peak during the hours of dawn and dusk. I have never caught a piranha of any species on hook and line when fishing at night".
> *
> 
> This is incorrect, I saw a documentary on Animal Planet; cant recall what the name was...something like "Searching for giant fish in the Amazon". Anyway, the guy was fishing all day to catch a big Arapaima Gigas (sp) and some other giant catfish and could not catch any b/c piranhas kept on eating his bait...than he tried at night and same thing piranhas ate his bait.


How can you say the statement by David is incorrect? He is giving a first hand account of his experience when fishing for piranhas and he never uses a term like "Always" as some ignorant people have used in this thread....he simply says hunting activity "apparently" peak during the during the hours of dawn and dusk because he has never caught any species of piranha at night. How can that possibly be an incorrect statement? That is where people fail in this thread....tossing out rules and opinions as if they are fact...and they are based on zero experience. Your basing your opinion from what was said on a tv show...and he is talking about his experience when fishing for these fish. How someone can possibly say the best tank size for a 15" rhom is 180 gallons...or 240 gallons...or whatever....is like me saying the best tank for a 4' reef shark is 10,000 gallons...and the rule is 2,500 gallons per foot!! Now in reality I have no frickin idea what I am talking about because I have never had a 4' reef shark....BUT THATS MY RULE AND YOU CANT PROVE I AM WRONG!!!

It would be nice to have this discussion with people that have actually had these fish and get their opinion...than people that are just regurgitating what they heard on TV or read in some book.
[/quote]

GG, did you by any chance watch the documentary...David said "I have never caught a piranha of any species on hook and line when fishing at night". The guy in the documentary spent hours fishing at night and every time piranha stripped his bait, now unless it fell off dozens of times piranha were responsible for this as the guy keeps on stating. Further, I comprehend that David -who I never heard of before (no disrespect to David, I'm sure he's a nice guy)- is only stating what happened that time he was fishing and additionally never mentioned "Always etc." but the documentary speaks for itself. Piranha can be and are active at night, and do feed at night. Now, if you dont believe the documentary than I cant do anything about that.

So, the statement was correct when David was fishing but stands incorrect when the guy was fishing (he was not fishing for piranha btw). This means it was proven incorrect at least once and therefore is incorrect by default. Not to say that if David or anyone els was fishing for piranha at night that they would NOT take the bait again. It simply depends.

Listen, I'm not like Italianstylzzz (not disrespect) that will argue over and over about something. Believe what you want, and watch the documentary it's not that bad, I have not clicked on the links provided by Italianstylzzz (above )yet but it could have been River Monsters.

Regards, SA
[/quote]

No disrespect taken at all, remember im just answering the questions and insults directed at me







.... which is all this thread is about, hence why the "mod" put my name in the thread header,.... not my fault.


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## Pit_man (Sep 13, 2008)

END OF STORY


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Grosse Gurke said:


> *Now considering you apparently read extensively, I request documentation of any published work that says Piranhas eat at night in their natural environment.*
> *From everything I have ever read, they do not, and to quote David M. Schleser "The hunting activities of the larger predatory species apparently peak during the hours of dawn and dusk. I have never caught a piranha of any species on hook and line when fishing at night".
> *
> 
> This is incorrect, I saw a documentary on Animal Planet; cant recall what the name was...something like "Searching for giant fish in the Amazon". Anyway, the guy was fishing all day to catch a big Arapaima Gigas (sp) and some other giant catfish and could not catch any b/c piranhas kept on eating his bait...than he tried at night and same thing piranhas ate his bait.


How can you say the statement by David is incorrect? He is giving a first hand account of his experience when fishing for piranhas and he never uses a term like "Always" as some ignorant people have used in this thread....he simply says hunting activity "apparently" peak during the during the hours of dawn and dusk because he has never caught any species of piranha at night. How can that possibly be an incorrect statement? That is where people fail in this thread....tossing out rules and opinions as if they are fact...and they are based on zero experience. Your basing your opinion from what was said on a tv show...and he is talking about his experience when fishing for these fish. How someone can possibly say the best tank size for a 15" rhom is 180 gallons...or 240 gallons...or whatever....is like me saying the best tank for a 4' reef shark is 10,000 gallons...and the rule is 2,500 gallons per foot!! Now in reality I have no frickin idea what I am talking about because I have never had a 4' reef shark....BUT THATS MY RULE AND YOU CANT PROVE I AM WRONG!!!

It would be nice to have this discussion with people that have actually had these fish and get their opinion...than people that are just regurgitating what they heard on TV or read in some book.
[/quote]

Nothing ive said was based on zero experience, and thats again because your are compareing to your "book" which should be of no benchmark, your comment is hypocritical







, again an example of your ignorance. everyone is entitled to there own opinions, the end

Have a nice day


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Trevor said:


> Everybody has their own opinions, now everybody just shut-up and enjoy keeping fish....whatever they might be, in whatever size tank they might be in!!


well said trevor, i nominate you as moderator....


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I put your name in the thread header because I wanted to continue our discussion and not do it in ksls's rhom thread.

SA...my only comment to you was that Davids comment was not incorrect because he was not making a definitive statement...he was simply reporting his experience. Sorry for any confusion. I have not fished in the amazon so I am not really qualified to talk about how they act in the wild at night....I am only talking about what I see in my tanks.

When someone says a rule is "always" applicable.....they are not offering an opinion....they are offering a fact. To say "a simple rule is and always will remain" is not offering an opinion....and that is where I take issue. There are very few aspects of this hobby that are absolute.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Grosse Gurke said:


> I put your name in the thread header because I wanted to continue our discussion and not do it in ksls's rhom thread.
> 
> SA...my only comment to you was that Davids comment was not incorrect because he was not making a definitive statement...he was simply reporting his experience. Sorry for any confusion. I have not fished in the amazon so I am not really qualified to talk about how they act in the wild at night....I am only talking about what I see in my tanks.
> 
> When someone says a rule is "always" applicable.....they are not offering an opinion....they are offering a fact. To say "a simple rule is and always will remain" is not offering an opinion....and that is where I take issue. There are very few aspects of this hobby that are absolute.


whichever way you understand things, to make you sleep at night, is your given right. i love to see my fish in large tanks as per my rule, and that makes me sleep at night happily.


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

Grosse Gurke said:


> SA...my only comment to you was that Davids comment was not incorrect because he was not making a definitive statement...he was simply reporting his experience. Sorry for any confusion. I have not fished in the amazon so I am not really qualified to talk about how they act in the wild at night....I am only talking about what I see in my tanks.


I must also apologize, I should have made my first post clearer. I was referring to the member that said "Now considering you apparently read extensively, I request documentation of any published work that says Piranhas eat at night in their natural environment" not to Davids personal experience.

Now, that that's all cleared up, we can all be friends again...lol.

Cheers


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

The English language is being so badly traumatized here. "Rule" What does that mean? Look it up. In fish care "rule" is defined as a guideline NOT CARVED IN STONE. Or the proverbeal "rule of thumb".

As for piranhas at night, the only study done was on S. maculatus which does feed in the evening hours. As to what Nigel or whatever his name is caught. I dont' recall the show or much about it. What I can tell you, some of his scenes are staged. Doesn't take an expert to figure that out, especially the dangling chicken. You see him holding the carcass, but you don't see what is happening except the underwater scene where the fish are eating. Why is that? Hollywood magic I would think in my opinion. Plus different water scene is involved, due to some bad splicing that the untrained eye wouldn't notice. Not sure? Go back and watch it again with a clear mind.

As for nocturnal feeding of piranhas, as I stated above there are reports of S. maculatus feeding after hours of darkness. But so do carnero's (cardiru species), which most uninformed people mistake for piranha attacks. In case you don't know what a carnero is, its a catfish that drills flesh out of other fish and mammals, including human.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

im not a big supporter of the 20 gal per fish rule and the 15 gal per inch rule is just rediculous unless maybe if your taking SPECIFICALLY about large rhoms.. anything else and its a joke.


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## weerhom (Jan 12, 2007)

oh my gosh Frank. I remember a post awhile back where I said lots of the stuff you see is staged. I was bashed and mashed till I was beatin into a bloody pulp for saying such a thing.... Here I am in lead for p-furys worst member.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Trigga said:


> The English language is being so badly traumatized here. "Rule" What does that mean? Look it up. In fish care "rule" is defined as a guideline NOT CARVED IN STONE. Or the proverbeal "rule of thumb".
> 
> As for piranhas at night, the only study done was on S. maculatus which does feed in the evening hours. As to what Nigel or whatever his name is caught. I dont' recall the show or much about it. What I can tell you, some of his scenes are staged. Doesn't take an expert to figure that out, especially the dangling chicken. You see him holding the carcass, but you don't see what is happening except the underwater scene where the fish are eating. Why is that? Hollywood magic I would think in my opinion. Plus different water scene is involved, due to some bad splicing that the untrained eye wouldn't notice. Not sure? Go back and watch it again with a clear mind.
> 
> As for nocturnal feeding of piranhas, as I stated above there are reports of S. maculatus feeding after hours of darkness. But so do carnero's (cardiru species), which most uninformed people mistake for piranha attacks. In case you don't know what a carnero is, its a catfish that drills flesh out of other fish and mammals, including human.


thanks for the english lesson,..









To be honest i think alot are staged,... but staging live fish on hooks at night,.... i dont know. Im still up in arms about the hungry piranha in the pool :~


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

hastatus said:


> The English language is being so badly traumatized here. "Rule" What does that mean? Look it up. In fish care "rule" is defined as a guideline NOT CARVED IN STONE. Or the proverbeal "rule of thumb".
> 
> As for piranhas at night, the only study done was on S. maculatus which does feed in the evening hours. As to what Nigel or whatever his name is caught. I dont' recall the show or much about it. What I can tell you, some of his scenes are staged. Doesn't take an expert to figure that out, especially the dangling chicken. You see him holding the carcass, but you don't see what is happening except the underwater scene where the fish are eating. Why is that? Hollywood magic I would think in my opinion. Plus different water scene is involved, due to some bad splicing that the untrained eye wouldn't notice. Not sure? Go back and watch it again with a clear mind.
> 
> As for nocturnal feeding of piranhas, as I stated above there are reports of S. maculatus feeding after hours of darkness. But so do carnero's (cardiru species), which most uninformed people mistake for piranha attacks. In case you don't know what a carnero is, its a catfish that drills flesh out of other fish and mammals, including human.


I looked at the Nigel clips and dont think it was him in it. THe guy in the documentary that I saw was younger. Anyways, I truly dont really care if they do or dont feed at night.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> im not a big supporter of the *20 gal per fish rule and the 15 gal per inch rule *is just rediculous unless maybe if your taking SPECIFICALLY about large rhoms.. anything else and its a joke.


I think that is where the problem is, assuming the "rule" is carved in stone. Each time someone makes that assumption, then the topic gets lost in translation. My advice is 40gal per 10 inch fish. Is that a carved in stone rule? Of course not. Its advice or a guideline and a rule of thumb. Doesn't mean you have to stick by it which is where I see the translation is lost. Aquarium conditions are different than native waters. What you see in the aquarium is not necessarily what you will see in the wild. GG has always made that a point on his grouping of S. irritans. He had them together for some time and they were given sufficient cover. Did they bite each other? In his reports no. Yet you go in the wild and put them in a bucket together and they make short work of each other (D. Schleser). Does that mean they won't live together in the aquarium? That's a yes or no question as piranhas have always been unpredicable........that's what makes them DANGEROUS. So be smart and don't make assumptions that some species will live together peacefully. That for certain is NOT CARVED IN STONE.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > im not a big supporter of the *20 gal per fish rule and the 15 gal per inch rule *is just rediculous unless maybe if your taking SPECIFICALLY about large rhoms.. anything else and its a joke.
> 
> 
> I think that is where the problem is, assuming the "rule" is carved in stone. Each time someone makes that assumption, then the topic gets lost in translation. My advice is 40gal per 10 inch fish. Is that a carved in stone rule? Of course not. Its advice or a guideline and a rule of thumb. Doesn't mean you have to stick by it which is where I see the translation is lost. Aquarium conditions are different than native waters. What you see in the aquarium is not necessarily what you will see in the wild. GG has always made that a point on his grouping of S. irritans. He had them together for some time and they were given sufficient cover. Did they bite each other? In his reports no. Yet you go in the wild and put them in a bucket together and they make short work of each other (D. Schleser). Does that mean they won't live together in the aquarium? That's a yes or no question as piranhas have always been unpredicable........that's what makes them DANGEROUS. So be smart and don't make assumptions that some species will live together peacefully. That for certain is NOT CARVED IN STONE.


 totally agree... as i have said for a long time... there is way more than one way to do what we do

italstylzz: im not reading all of it man i skimmed through the thread. 15 gallons per inch is not justified in anyway unless you are taking about a large rhom... i guess its nice to look at (if the fish even takes advantage of all the room, piranha usually dont unless your taking overstocked pygo's) but a waste of space.


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## Uncle Jesse (Feb 18, 2007)

hastatus said:


> The English language is being so badly traumatized here. "Rule" What does that mean? Look it up. In fish care "rule" is defined as a guideline NOT CARVED IN STONE. Or the proverbeal "rule of thumb".
> 
> As for piranhas at night, the only study done was on S. maculatus which does feed in the evening hours. As to what Nigel or whatever his name is caught. I dont' recall the show or much about it. What I can tell you, some of his scenes are staged. Doesn't take an expert to figure that out, especially the dangling chicken. You see him holding the carcass, but you don't see what is happening except the underwater scene where the fish are eating. Why is that? Hollywood magic I would think in my opinion. Plus different water scene is involved, due to some bad splicing that the untrained eye wouldn't notice. Not sure? Go back and watch it again with a clear mind.
> 
> As for nocturnal feeding of piranhas, as I stated above there are reports of S. maculatus feeding after hours of darkness. But so do carnero's (cardiru species), which most uninformed people mistake for piranha attacks. In case you don't know what a carnero is, its a catfish that drills flesh out of other fish and mammals, including human.


Now that you mention it, when I used to have my macs, I threw a few pieces of shrimp in the tank when I got home on night. It was aroun 3 am and the lights in the house were off. The fish were super dark and "floating" around on an angle facing down. As soon as one would get close to the shrimp they would take a bite out of it. I could tell they were still sleeping and I always thought it to be odd.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Feeding habits in the wild and in an aquarium, can not be compared. That same discussion opened up a while ago on the Dutch forum (I also opened one here, though without much reactions).
In home aquaria, most people would say their fish are nocturnal feeders for "the next morning the food is gone". That doesn't mean that much. They won't know what time they eat, they don't know what influence the lightning has got.
Leaving the lights out and curtains closed for a while so daytime is dark, might as well result in a daytime feeding habit.
It has been said many times before : what happens in your tank, can never be translated into what happens in the wild.

About that video of fishing at night : of course you will catch something. 99 out of 100 people sleep at night, but does that mean you cannot see one out at night ?
A rule is certainly not carved in stone, so you will always have some fish at night. That doesn't mean the majority is active.
An investigation has been done towards movement patterns of S.rhombeus in Lake Coco something.
First of all they concluded only one specimen used the entire lenght of the lake. Others stayed within a small section of the lake. So actually I think that partly proves GG's statement that they need as much space, as their territory requires.

The activities (measured by radiotracking) showed several peaktimes, partly around sunset and eveningfall suggesting crepuscular habits, some were active during daytime (diurnal rhythm) and a few remained active till after dark (nocturnal).
In other words, absolutely nothing can be said a 100% sure about feeding habits. Yes, some fish will hunt during the night, though it's very well possible they started doing so at evening fall. But without enough food, they will continue after dark.

One video doesn't prove anything about it, does it ? I can post a video of me walking on my hands and feet, certainly you won't use it to conclude all humans walk that way


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## Ibanez247 (Nov 9, 2006)

italianstylzzz said:


> Apparently no matter what we say italianstylzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz is going to just keep arguing. Remember he has a 1/4 million dollar house so he must be smart. Like Britany Spears, ya know she has a 7 million dollar house so she must be a god damn genius. I agree with Black footprint over actual gallons. I have six 8"+ pygos in a 125 that measures 6'x2'x18"tall. They dont need height they need area. the whole 1" per gallon is jsut a general rule there is no set you must have X size tank to X size fish or will die. And the whole your fish wont be happy thing, hate to break it to ya but fish dont have emotions. They can get pyshically stressed but they dont care if they have 1 million gallons or 20gallons to swim around in. This thread is jsut way out of control. He just keeps repeating what hes said 100 times. Kinda surprised it hasnt been closed by a mod yet.


Dumb comment from a dumb person, what anyones concern of what someone can afford or not afford is not anyones bussiness, if you read, the comment was in direct retaliation to me, as i can not afford something,... go read,... he deserved the answer in order to set him in place,..... now your even dumber comment, about a famous person not being a genius??? how that plays into place is not even a question....shes richer than me,... and more than likely richer than you, so really whos laughing, you or her??? just shut your mouth of nothing you do not know. I spoke my opinions and my opinions are what i feel, your free to speak your mind,.... a typical community fish are not piranha, regardless of how you look at it,...yes community with sole species, but not others,... there demands and food they eat is differnt from a typical "community" fish. all piranha require heavier filtration opposed to lets say a school of 100 danios.. or other community type fish, there eating behaviour is differnt and anatomically differnt fish. now another comment,,, fish dont have emotions,.... do you know that??? no one does do not answer a question, not even the brightest in this world know nothing about. And im pretty sure, you dont fall in the bright catergory,.....
[/quote]

LMAO! Dude you smoke crack or are you just that retarded? Your the idiot that stated you owned a 1/4 million dollar house which has nothing to do with the topic and you said you know what your talking about when it comes to fish. You must work at Petco. Apparently you dont understand sracasm at all either. You know arguing on the internet is like the special olympics right? No matter who wins your both still retarded. And I'll say it again all you do is repeat what you said 100 times only put it in a different way. Your just making yourself look like a tool. I dont have to do anything to help i nthat catagory but apparently my 2cents bothereed you enough for you to write yet another rediculous paragraph. Im not offended by any of that if that was your attempt. Your just digging yourslef a big whole in a community that doesnt seem to care what you think. If you cant take the heat get the F out of the kitchen!

PS your english sucks.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Ibanez247 said:


> Apparently no matter what we say italianstylzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz is going to just keep arguing. Remember he has a 1/4 million dollar house so he must be smart. Like Britany Spears, ya know she has a 7 million dollar house so she must be a god damn genius. I agree with Black footprint over actual gallons. I have six 8"+ pygos in a 125 that measures 6'x2'x18"tall. They dont need height they need area. the whole 1" per gallon is jsut a general rule there is no set you must have X size tank to X size fish or will die. And the whole your fish wont be happy thing, hate to break it to ya but fish dont have emotions. They can get pyshically stressed but they dont care if they have 1 million gallons or 20gallons to swim around in. This thread is jsut way out of control. He just keeps repeating what hes said 100 times. Kinda surprised it hasnt been closed by a mod yet.


Dumb comment from a dumb person, what anyones concern of what someone can afford or not afford is not anyones bussiness, if you read, the comment was in direct retaliation to me, as i can not afford something,... go read,... he deserved the answer in order to set him in place,..... now your even dumber comment, about a famous person not being a genius??? how that plays into place is not even a question....shes richer than me,... and more than likely richer than you, so really whos laughing, you or her??? just shut your mouth of nothing you do not know. I spoke my opinions and my opinions are what i feel, your free to speak your mind,.... a typical community fish are not piranha, regardless of how you look at it,...yes community with sole species, but not others,... there demands and food they eat is differnt from a typical "community" fish. all piranha require heavier filtration opposed to lets say a school of 100 danios.. or other community type fish, there eating behaviour is differnt and anatomically differnt fish. now another comment,,, fish dont have emotions,.... do you know that??? no one does do not answer a question, not even the brightest in this world know nothing about. And im pretty sure, you dont fall in the bright catergory,.....
[/quote]

LMAO! Dude you smoke crack or are you just that retarded? Your the idiot that stated you owned a 1/4 million dollar house which has nothing to do with the topic and you said you know what your talking about when it comes to fish. You must work at Petco. Apparently you dont understand sracasm at all either. You know arguing on the internet is like the special olympics right? No matter who wins your both still retarded. And I'll say it again all you do is repeat what you said 100 times only put it in a different way. Your just making yourself look like a tool. I dont have to do anything to help i nthat catagory but apparently my 2cents bothereed you enough for you to write yet another rediculous paragraph. Im not offended by any of that if that was your attempt. Your just digging yourslef a big whole in a community that doesnt seem to care what you think. If you cant take the heat get the F out of the kitchen!

PS your english sucks.








[/quote]

my english sucks???? did you proof read this useless paragraph before you wrote it???? and talking about fish yet throwing a whole different ball? and say i cant afford a tank??... i make an opinion of tank sizing, and someone takes it upon themselves to say im a poor ass???,... thats not being sarcastic thats being an idiot. Now offering my opinion and then i get an idiot like you talking about special olympics? why you arguing with me then???? and bashing my views???? this is the most, hypocritical piece of garbage i have read, in this whole thread!!! if anyone shouldnt be talking about special olympics it should be you!!!! Case in point, i think YOU LOOK LIKE THE TOOL NOW!!!!

p.s.... its spelled ridiculous... category is another... bothered is another one.... "yourself" in the 2nd last sentence need i say more about a TOOL?? ....... special olympics??? LMAO ..... Now you see why, you shouldnt open your mouth.

ciao bud,


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Please keep this discussion civil. That means all of you. Name calling, bashing, etc., is why topics like this go down the toilet.


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