# Shrimp as a "staple food"



## notoriouslyKEN

I was doing some research tonight after buying some rosy reds as feeders for my rhom. I wanted to look up the chemical that was in goldfish (thiaminase) that supposedly was a growth inhibitor (destroys vitamin b1 (thiamine)). Upon looking it up, I quickly found out that rosy reds, sure enough, contained thiaminase. Out of curiosity, I decided to check up on the other foods I had in my freezer (mackerel, shrimp and octopus). Shrimp was listed as containing high amounts of thiaminase, yet here on this forum, it is highly recommended as a staple food for your fish. I have found that my piranha's personal preference is the octopus, followed by shrimp, then finally mackerel. I will be looking for a replacement for shrimp very soon. The leftovers will go to me (where I don't have to worry about thiaminase because cooking will destroy it).

This is one of the websites that I found this information on, Thiaminase. Definitely worth checking out at the minimum for there list of seafood containing thiaminase and the list of seafood that does not.


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## AKSkirmish

Shrimp is my staple diet to all my fish---No exceptions one bit on that one-

My growth rates are over the top and so is quality of fish....

Anyhow-I will continue to use it until I can see some affects first hand...


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## notoriouslyKEN

Are your shrimp soaked in vitamins? If so, I would believe that it would negate the effects of thiaminase. I was a little shocked to find thiaminase in shrimp b/c it's constantly brought up as a reason not to feed goldfish. Maybe shrimp has enough thiamine to counter the thiaminase and it doesn't destroy all of the vitamin? Or maybe this is why large piranha seem to stall on growth in captivity? Or maybe I am just reading too much in to this.


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## AKSkirmish

notoriouslyKEN said:


> Are your shrimp soaked in vitamins? If so, I would believe that it would negate the effects of thiaminase. I was a little shocked to find thiaminase in shrimp b/c it's constantly brought up as a reason not to feed goldfish. Maybe shrimp has enough thiamine to counter the thiaminase and it doesn't destroy all of the vitamin? Or maybe this is why large piranha seem to stall on growth in captivity? Or maybe I am just reading too much in to this.


My shrimp is bought from local seafood market-Always RAW and Wild-caught.I do not soak my shrimp in anything at all.

I have never been hindered by growth-I am also not too sure-I have never read into it at all...


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## Trigga

Shrimp is my staple too.. But I soak it in Boyd vita-chem


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## Plowboy

AFAIK thiaminase breaks down thiamine into 2 different molecules. Thiamine is the hormone that causes weight loss among other issues.

EDIT:







I read it backwards. Thiamine (aka vitamin b1) deficiencies cause growth issues and weight loss. So the thiaminase breaking it down probably isnt a good thing. lol I'm going to keep digging around the web, and if I find a good article I'll post it.


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## Plowboy

http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/215988.html



> NON TECHNICAL SUMMARY: *Over the past three decades, Early Mortality Syndrome (EMS) has been observed in populations of valuable fishes, including lake trout and Atlantic salmon, found in inland lakes of the Northeastern US. EMS is caused by severe thiamine (vitamin B1) deficiency and leads to high mortality rates in the affected fish. B1 deficiency has been correlated with lake trout consumption of forage fish that contain high levels of thiaminase, a B1-destroying enzyme.* One such species is alewife, an abundant non-native invader that has replaced native forage species. Thiaminase activity is highly variable in wild-caught alewife, and factors responsible for this variation are poorly understood. One source of thiaminase is thiaminase-positive bacteria, such as Paenibacillus thiaminolyticus, which have been isolated from alewife viscera. We will investigate the link between alewife gut bacteria and thiaminase activity in these prey fish. We will first characterize the bacterial populations associated with alewife and explore if bacterial population dynamics correlate with changes in thiaminase activities. Finally, we will investigate factors that induce or alter the expression of thiaminase in P. thiaminolyticus in laboratory culture. Alewife populations have been found, and are expanding, in more than a dozen inland lakes in New York and Pennsylvania. The expanding range of alewife could be due to inadvertent bait introductions by anglers, or deliberate introductions by bait suppliers. Current management efforts to restore populations of native predatory fish acknowledge the role of EMS and alewife consumption in preventing the expansion of existing populations. However, without knowledge of the ultimate source of thiaminase, and the factors that influence its expression, evaluation of restoration efforts could be confounded by complex feeding patterns, for instance, if other thiaminase sources emerge. The completed project will provide assays to directly assess bacterial numbers and thiaminase expression levels in environmental samples. Project results will also provide background information required to manage valuable, but threatened, native fish populations. Results will be published in peer-reviewed journals, and investigators associated with this project will present their work at public workshops and professional meetings. As the project develops, we will apply these assays to natural and laboratory-maintained populations of alewife. By establishing a clear link between a primary thiaminase source and thiaminase activity we will be able to investigate the relationships between environmental conditions, thiaminase expression and manifestation of EMS. These efforts will provide information relevant to managing valuable recreational fisheries, which will be shared with managers and stakeholders involved in restoring and conserving native fisheries in New York and the Northeast.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3962174

experiment on sheep with it.



> Three experiments were performed to examine for causes of poor growth of young Merino sheep. Weekly testing of animals 42 weeks of age for 10 weeks revealed that 90% of clinically poor animals were excreting high levels of thiaminase in their faeces; low levels of activity were present in 20% of clinically normal animals. There were significant differences in the mean erythrocyte transketolase activity of the thiaminase excreting poor animals and the thiaminase free normal animals. Other known causes of poor growth could not be demonstrated. Weekly monitoring of thiaminase activity in the faeces from 80 lambs 6 weeks of age showed 23% to be excreting significant levels of enzyme (greater than 3mUg-1 DM) throughout a 10 week test period. Mean growth rates of these lambs were significantly below those of lambs not excreting thiaminase or excreting low levels intermittently. Supplementation of thiaminase excreting lambs with intra-muscular injections of thiamine HCl was associated with a statistically significant improved growth rate (P less than 0.01) compared to unsupplemented sheep excreting thiaminase. Mean growth rates of lambs not excreting thiaminase on a continuous basis (sampled weekly) were the same with or without thiamine HCl supplementation. High thiaminase levels were found in the ruminal fluids of trial animals excreting the enzyme in their faeces, confirming this previously established association. Bacillus thiaminolyticus was isolated from faeces and ruminal fluids from clinically poor animals and is the most likely source of the thiaminase. Subclinical thiamine deficiency was indicated by low erythrocyte transketolase activities and elevated TPP effects and is proposed as the cause of the poor growth by the young sheep.


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## Plowboy

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...=1&SRETRY=0



> ABSTRACT
> 
> SUMMARY: Thiaminase activity was detected in the faeces of lambs at 2 to 5 days of age. Levels of activity increased for 10 days and then declined over the next 3 to 4 weeks. Decreased erythrocyte transketolase activity indicated thiamine insufficiency in lambs with high thiaminase activity.* Mean growth rates were 17% less in lambs with high thiaminase activity than in lambs with zero or low thiaminase activity.* Bacillus thiaminolyticus was the only organism isolated which produced thiaminase. Treatment of newborn lambs with intramuscular injections of sulphadoxine did not prevent them from excreting thiaminase in their faeces. It is proposed that oral thiamine supplementation of lambs at 2 to 3 weeks of age may be the most appropriate prevention and treatment for subclinical thiamine deficiency of the cause described.










17% Holy f**k


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## [email protected]°

IMO Water conditions are more of a factor than diet.

If you do a lot of water changes to keep the specs good, and dilute out your fishes own growth inhibiting compounds it will do more for them then denying them a healthy protein latent food like shrimp.


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## Ba20

i stuff my shrimp with pellits now.


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## [email protected]°

Ba20 said:


> i stuff my shrimp with pellits now.


Great idea as long as the fish actually ingest the pellets...

With my P's they would rip the shrimp apart and let the pellets clog the filters before they would ever consider eating them..


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## Ba20

rhom gulps XL Raw Shrimp down hole


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## Armand_caribe

Interesting thread.


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## mose

so how do you actually determine whether or not there is Thiaminase in your shrimp?

i looked at my ingredients on my shrimp bag (got from the grocery store), and the only ingredient is shrimp









is it naturally occurring in shrimp, or is it a chemical they add?

how can i know i'm feeding my P's complete organic hormone/chemical free food, without buying that overpriced crap from the LFS.

p.s. anyone else find themselves eating all their piranha food sometimes? i am jonesing for some shrimp right now.... bad.


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## Soul Assassin

Good post and nice input Plum, I will look into this as well and if I find out that shrimp is the same as goldfish my P will never taste shrimp again.

Might as well feed it quarantined cheap ass goldfish if this is the case.

http://albertaaquatica.com/lofiversion/index.php?t23186.html

Many species of fish & invertebrates contain thiaminase and when ingested in large quantities it destroys the natural thiamin (vitamin B1) which in turn can cause vitamin deficiency. In fish, vitamin B1 deficiencies can lead to stunting, illness, and premature death. Goldfish feeders are known to be high in thiaminase, as are shrimp/prawns, both of which are commonly used to feed large predatory species in captivity.

After several years of studies by several teams of scientists, a massive die off of approx 450 alligators in Lake Griffin Florida has been connected to the high thiaminase content found in the local Gizzard Shad.
http://myfwc.com/gators/research/Griffin/Thiamine_report.pdf

In the Great Lakes region, vitamin B1 deficiencies have also been the cause of a great deal of studies, and have been linked to both trout & salmon ingestion of alewifes & smelt, both known to be high in thiaminase. 
http://www.glsc.usgs.gov/main.php?content=...atives_thiamine

With regards to both tropical & marine fish, the article below by Dr. Marco Lichtenberger is perhaps one of the best reads on this subject.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/vol.../thiaminase.htm

This guy said: http://www.actwin.com/pipermail/killietalk...ber/009433.html

There is a caution to feeding raw fish. Raw fish ( *not canned or shrimp
or crab*) contain thiaminase a thiamine destroying enzyme. There are very
very few fish that can live exclusively on raw fish. The Cabela's store
hear has some nice display tanks, but the bass, pike and trout slowly
waste away. They feed them minnows exclusively. They have slowly
converted the tanks over to gars, catfish and sturgeon and use a fish chow
instead.

A long article on how to prep your own fish feed: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA097

Thiaminase content review, *the best article I found *: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/vol.../thiaminase.htm

The data on thiaminase content comes from various sources, mostly from the National research council (1982), Deutsch & Hasler (1943), Greig & Gnaedinger (1971) and Hilker & Peter (1966); see also the literature list at the end of the article. The lists are far from complete, but most of the usually marketed and so far examined species are enlisted. Although primarily based on coldwater food fish and invertebrates, thiaminase content information exists for several tropical species widely marketed, and these been included accordingly.
Species that contain thiaminase

Freshwater fish
Family Cyprinidae (Minnows or carps):
Common bream (Abramis brama)
Central stoneroller (Campostoma anomalum)
Goldfish (Carassius auratus)
Common carp (Cyprinus carpio)
Emerald shiner (Notropis atherinoides)
Spottail shiner (Notropis hudsonius)
Rosy red, Fathead minnow (Pimephales promelas)
Olive barb (Puntius sarana)

Family Salmonidae (Salmonids):
Lake whitefish (Coregonus clupeaformis)
Round whitefish (Prosopium cylindraceum)

Family Catostomidae (Suckers):
White sucker (Catostomus commersonii)
Bigmouth buffalo (Ictiobus cyprinellus)

Family Ictaluridae (North American freshwater catfishes):
Brown bullhead catfish (Ameiurus nebulosus)
Channel catfish (Ictalurus punctatus)

Other families:
Bowfin (Amia calva) - family Amiidae (Bowfins)
Burbot (Lota lota) - family Lotidae (Hakes and burbots)
White bass (Morone chrysops) - family Moronidae (Temperate basses)
Rainbow smelt (Osmerus mordax) - family Osmeridae (Smelts)
Loach, Weatherfish (Misgurnus sp.) - family Cobitidae (Loaches)

Brackish (freshwater to marine) fish

Family Clupeidae (Herrings):
Alewife (Alosa pseudoharengus)
Gizzard Shad (Dorosoma cepedianum)

Other families:
Sea lamprey (Petromyzon marinus) - family Petromyzontidae (Lampreys)
Fourhorn Sculpin (Triglopsis quadricornis) - family Cottidae (Sculpins)
Salmon (sp. indet., processed and salted, probably Oncorhynchus sp.) - family Salmonidae (Salmonids)

Marine fish

Family Engraulidae (Anchovies):
Broad-striped anchovy (Anchoa hepsetus) 
Californian anchovy (Engraulis mordax) 
Goldspotted grenadier anchovy (Coilia dussumieri)

Family Clupeidae (Herrings):
Atlantic herring (Clupea harrengus)
Atlantik menhaden (Brevoortia tyrannus)
Gulf menhaden (Brevoortia patronus)
Razor belly sardine (Harengula jaguana)
Sauger (Harengula jaguana)

Family Scombridae (Mackerels, tunas, bonitos):
Chub mackerel (Scomber japonicus)
Skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis)
Yellowfin tuna (Neothunnus macropterus)

Family Lutjanidae (Snappers):
Green jobfish (Aprion virescens)
Ruby snapper (Etelis carbunculus)
Crimson jobfish (Pristipomoides filamentosus)

Family Carangidae (Jacks):
Giant trevally (Caranx ignobilis)
Doublespotted queenfish (Scomberoides lysan) 
Bigeye scad (Selar crumenophthalmus)

Family Mullidae (Goatfishes):
Red Sea goatfish (Mulloidichthys auriflamma) 
Yellowstripe goatfish (Mulloidichthys samoensis)
Manybar goatfish (Parupeneus multifasciatus)

Other families:
American butterfish (Peprilus triacanthus) - family Stromateidae (Butterfishes)
Southern ocellated moray (Gymnothorax ocellatus) - family Muraenidae (Moray eels)
Bonefish (Albula vulpes) - family Albulidae (Bonefishes)
Milkfish (Chanos chanos) - family Chanidae (Milkfish)
Common dolphinfish (Coryphaena hippurus) - family Coryphaenidae (Dolphinfishes)
Hawaiian flagtail (Kuhlia sandvicensis) - family Kuhliidae (Aholeholes)
Black cod (sp. indet.) - family Moridae (Morid cods)
Flathead mullet (Mugil cephalus) - family Mugilidae (Mullets)
Sixfinger threadfin (Polydactylus sexfilis) - family Polynemidae (Threadfins)
Regal parrot (Scarus dubius) - family Scaridae (Parrotfishes)
Swordfish (Xiphias gladius) - family Xiphiidae (Swordfish)

Invertebrates

Bivalves:
Ocean quahog (Artica islandica)
Clam (Tellina spp.)
Cherrystone, Chowder, Steamer clams (family Veneridae)
Pigtoe mussel (Pleurobema cordatum)
Scallop (Pecten grandis)
Hawaiian clam (sp. indet.; extremely high in thiaminase)
Blue mussel (Mytilus galloprovincialis)

Gastropods:
Limpet (Helcioniscus sp.)

Cephalopods:
Hawaiian flying squid (Nototodarus hawaiiensis)

Crustaceans:
Prawn, Tiger shrimp (Penaeus spp.)

Species that do not contain thiaminaseFreshwater fish

Family Centrarchidae (North American Sunfishes):
Largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides)
Northern rock bass (Ambloplites rupestris)
Northern smallmouth bass (Micropterus dolomieu)
Blue gill (Lepomis macrochirus)
Black crappie (Pomoxis nigromaculatus)
Pumpkinseed (Lepomis gibbosus) 
Family Percidae (Perches):
Yellow perch (Perca flavescens) 
Walleye (Sander vitreus)

Family Salmonidae (Salmonids):
Bloater (Coregonus hoyi)
Lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush) 
Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) 
Other families:
Ayu (Plecoglossus altivelis) - family Plecoglossidae (Ayu fish)
Longnose gar (Lepisosteus osseus) - family Lepisosteidae (Gars)
Northern Pike (Esox lucius) - family Esocidae (Pikes)

Brackish (freshwater to marine) fish
Family Salmonidae (Salmonids):
Cisco, Lake herring (Coregonus artedi)
Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar) 
Coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch) 
Sea trout (Salmo trutta)

Other families:
Common eel (Anguilla anguilla) - family Anguillidae (True eels)
Pond smelt (Hypomesus olidus) - family Osmeridae (Smelts)

Marine fish
Family Pleuronectidae (Righteye flounders):
Winter flounder (Pseudopleuronectes americanus)
Winter flounder, Lemon sole (Pseudopleuronectes americanus) 
American plaice (Hippoglossoides platessoides) 
Yellowtail flounder (Limanda ferruginea) 
Atlantic halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus) 
European plaice (Pleuronectes platessa)

Family Gadidae (Cods and haddocks)
Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)
Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus) 
Saithe, Pollock (Pollachius spp.)

Family Sciaenidae (Drums or croakers):
Atlantic croaker (Micropogonias undulates)
Southern kingfish (Menticirrhus americanus) 
Spot croaker (Leiostomus xanthurus) 
Silver seatrout (Cynoscion nothus) 
Sand weakfish (Cynoscion arenarius)

Family Carangidae (Jacks):
Greater amberjack (Seriola dumerilii) 
Yellowtail scad (Atule mate) 
Mackerel scad (Decapterus pinnulatus)

Family Labridae (Wrasses):
Cunner (Tautogolabrus adspersus) 
Tautog (Tautoga onitis)

Family Scombridae (Mackerels, tunas, bonitos):
Atlantic mackerel (Scomber scombrus) 
Kawakawa (Euthynnus affinis) 
Other families:
Tusk (Brosme brosme) - family Lotidae (Hakes and burbots)
Largehead hairtail (Trichiurus lepturus) - family Trichiuridae (Cutlassfishes)
Piked dogfish (Squalus acanthias) - family Squalidae (Dogfish sharks)
Hake (Urophycis spp.) - family Phycidae (Phycid hakes)
Inshore lizardfish (Synodus foetens) - family Synodontidae (Lizardfishes)
Mullet (Mugil spp.) - family Mugilidae (Mullets)
Scup, Southern porgy (Stenotomus chrysops) - family Sparidae (Porgies)
Ocean perch, redfish (Sebastes marinus) - family Sebastidae (Rockfishes)
Black seabass (Centropristis striata) - family Serranidae (Sea basses and Groupers)
Hardhead sea catfish (Ariopsis felis) - family Ariidae (Sea catfishes)
Searobin (Prionotus spp.) - family Triglidae (Searobins)
Silver hake (Merluccius bilinearis) - family Merlucciidae (Merluccid hakes)
Eyestripe surgeonfish (Acanthurus dussumieri) - family Acanthuridae (Surgeonfishes)
Atlantic blue marlin (Makaira nigricans) - family Istiophoridae (Billfishes)
Blotcheye soldierfish (Myripristis berndti) - family Holocentridae (Squirrelfishes, soldierfishes)
Glasseye (Heteropriacanthus cruentatus) - family Priacanthidae (Bigeyes or catalufas)
Great barracuda (Sphyraena barracuda) - family Sphyraenidae (Barracudas)
Invertebrates
Bivalves:
Cockle (Cardium spp.)

Crustaceans:
Marine shrimps (sp. indet.; Hawaii)
Portuguese crabs (sp. indet.)

Cephalopods:
Brief squid, calmar (Lolliguncula brevis)


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## Soul Assassin

So... I dont see Tilapia on the list and are tiger shrimp the same as normal shrimp? Me confused. I'll look for some marine shrimp in the store.

What u guys think?


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## mose

i have no idea i'm really new to this piranha thing... i just have cozy harbor shrimp (from maine) in my freezer, and a big bag of frozen silverbacks.

i'm thinking twice about feeding the shrimp now, but i'm not sure if the silverbacks have thiaminase.

can someone sparknotes that huge post for some of us novice p owners?


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## ChilDawg

mose said:


> so how do you actually determine whether or not there is Thiaminase in your shrimp?
> 
> i looked at my ingredients on my shrimp bag (got from the grocery store), and the only ingredient is shrimp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is it naturally occurring in shrimp, or is it a chemical they add?
> 
> how can i know i'm feeding my P's complete organic hormone/chemical free food, without buying that overpriced crap from the LFS.
> 
> p.s. anyone else find themselves eating all their piranha food sometimes? i am jonesing for some shrimp right now.... bad.


Thiaminase is a naturally-occurring chemical in animals, not something that people would add to them.


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## notoriouslyKEN

Soul Assassin said:


> Thiaminase content review, *the best article I found *: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/vol.../thiaminase.htm


That's the same link I posted on the first post, but I guess people are skipping over it. I was shocked when I saw the list was that large. I had assumed it was garbage fish (goldfish, rosey reds, etc) that had thiaminase and maybe it was due to inbreeding. Definitely makes you question your feeding habits.


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## mose

i don't see anything on that list about silversides.

has it been determined if they are free of thiaminase or not?


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

you need to be careful when buying "silversides" because different brands use different species of fish and some of them do contain thiaminase. san francisco bay brand uses a marine fish that doesn't contain thiaminase, but i have heard some of the other brands use cyprinids. if you aren't sure, the best thing to do would be to call the manufacturer and see what they package as "silversides". you could also do the same with some of the frozen smelt that you find in the grocery store, just call em up and see what they package as "smelt", it may actually be a fish that doesn't contain thiaminase.


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## mose

okay it is exactly the san francisco brand so i'm in the clear with that... not to mention my P's LOVE the stuff. the biggest one will swallow 3/4 of a silverside sometimes, usually that he stole out of another's mouth. and he's not even that much bigger.


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## SeedlessOne

Another reason to switch to pellets......

Good read guys!!


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## Lexx

To feed smelt or not,,,,,,,, use shrimp as a treat. Will have to check frozen smelt I get at grocery store. Regular smelt is on HAS list,,,,Pond Smelt is on DOESN'T list.


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## Ba20

Seedless what do us guys, that have serra's do ? The competiton isnt there so they dont readily accept pellets.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

serras can definitely be switched over to pellets, it just usually takes a bit more patience


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## Ba20

Another good link answers the question about Tilapia, http://theaquariumwiki.com/Thiaminase


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## mose

just looked at my pellets; they have salmon, herring, and shrimp in it.

what is the possibility my pellets also contain thiaminase?


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## Plowboy

^^^^ pretty much 100% since herring and shrimp both have thiaminase in it


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## mose

mother f*cker.

it's really scary that pet stores aren't aware of this.

ughhhhh maybe my beta fish can eat these giant floating pellets... i bet he'll try he's probably the most aggressive beta fish i've ever seen in my life.

edit: beta fish loves them.

p.s. thanks for the quick reply plowboy. i'm kind relying on you guys to help me through this ownership.


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## Plowboy

I don't think you have to worry about it too much. As AK's fish show, even having almost straight up shrimp as a diet can still make some massive fish. I'm sure the shrimp content in the pellets isnt to high anyways.

At worst I would still feed the pellets to the ps, just maybe not as the largest part of their diet.


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## Plowboy

The way I see it. The only time thiaminase will only cause a problem is if it causes a thiamine deficiency, and the ps are probably getting a excess of thiamine anyways. I'm sure there is room for the thiaminase to burn some of the thiamine off without causing any harm.

It's just like doctors saying that drinking a couple of glasses of red wine a day is good for you, but if you drink enough of it to wake up beside the toilet every morning its probably not good for you.


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## mose

not a couple of glasses a day, it's 1 a week.

your liver needs time to recover from alcohol, or it's constantly deteriorated. that's why an alcoholic is able to age a lifetime in half a decade.

i'd assume the b1 deficiency would go the same way. i've been feeding mostly silversides, but over the past week i've done silversides and pellets. that would never give their bodies any time to metabolize and get rid of it, as it's constantly being regenerated.

since switching adding shrimp and pellets to their diet, i've noticed a lack of appetite. when i used to feed them just silverbacks, they would eat almost double the portions without any inhibitions. now they're shy about it, and i usually have to go to the other side of the room when they eat, whereas i used to be able to stand directly in front of the tank.

could be hypochondria, but i'm not going to take that chance. thiaminase free food is all they will ever get from this day forward.


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## Plowboy

mose said:


> not a couple of glasses a day, it's 1 a week.
> 
> your liver needs time to recover from alcohol, or it's constantly deteriorated. that's why an alcoholic is able to age a lifetime in half a decade.
> 
> *^^Oops!*
> 
> i'd assume the b1 deficiency would go the same way. i've been feeding mostly silversides, but over the past week i've done silversides and pellets. that would never give their bodies any time to metabolize and get rid of it, as it's constantly being regenerated.
> 
> *The alcohol thing was just an analogy, and it appears that you found a problem with it that I didnt think of. To my knowledge, the thiaminase doesnt actually damage the fish like alcohol would damage your liver. There is no regeneration/repair needed like with alcohol.*
> 
> since switching adding shrimp and pellets to their diet, i've noticed a lack of appetite. when i used to feed them just silverbacks, they would eat almost double the portions without any inhibitions. now they're shy about it, and i usually have to go to the other side of the room when they eat, whereas i used to be able to stand directly in front of the tank.
> 
> could be hypochondria, but i'm not going to take that chance. thiaminase free food is all they will ever get from this day forward.
> 
> *You might just be paranoid, but it doesnt hurt to switch away from that brand of pellets for one without the bad things. I just personally don't think its much to worry about. Do what you think is best.*


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## mose

well nonetheless the pet store gave me a full refund, which i spent on san francisco silversides. so all is good!


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## NegativeSpin

I'm surprised the pellet manufacturers don't put allithiamine in their pellets to counter the thiaminase. I know that cooking for a long enough time denatures the thiaminase so maybe the ingredients are thoroughly cooked before making the pellets.


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## mose

i'd rather not risk it.


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## the_w8

Fresh shrimp are great to feed ur P's...It says catfish contain thiaminese and I've fed alot of catfish along with shrimp and my P's are as healthy as can be and i haven't noticed any growth problems. I think people get too wrapped up in growth inhibitors and all. All you really need to do is provide ur P's with a healthy diet and keep up on ur water changes and everything will be fine.


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## Soul Assassin

mose said:


> i'd rather not risk it.


heat kills thiaminase, so as long as the pellets have been treated with heat (which they prop. have) your good


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## 1rhom

what about krill? Does it have thiaminase?


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## Plowboy

I tried googling it and couldn't find anything that said they had it, but that doesn't mean they don't. Maybe someone else found a more complete list?!?! Might not hurt doing a bit of google work for yourself. GL on finding an answer. Ill keep looking for a good answer too


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## 1rhom

This is what i found so far.Thiaminase-free fish species are livebearers, killis, and cichlid fry.


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## Plowboy

Then your good to go!


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## Soul Assassin

bump for the newbies


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## AKSkirmish

It might contain it in the shrimp-

But after 5 years of useing as a staple for all my fish........I can honestly I have never seen one ill effect from doing so-
My fish have excellent growth rates......Great coloration....Eat a ton.....I just can't say that feeding shrimp as a staple is going to be a bad thing.....


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## Mason1

Im going to keep feeding mine raw shrimp. I can get a bag of about 60 for $3.

They got their first taste of the raw shrimp last night and I have never seen them eat like that. They went crazy for it.


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## arok3000

From what I've read on the lists, tiger shrimp contain thiaminase.
Marine shrimp do not contain thiaminase.

Any of the bagged noncooked shrimp is probably going to be good to feed your p's.


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## Plowboy

I can't remember if this is in this thread already but...

I think the thiaminase issue is a small one when compared to other issues with shrimp. The bigger issue IMHO is that most shrimp is cooked before you get it. Sure thiaminase is a growth inhibitor and whatnot, but cooked food lacks most of the nutrients an uncooked example would have. I'm going to guess that the nutrient issue is bigger than the growth inhibiting issue. That is based largely on speculation of course. I am no dietitian. If you can find shrimp that for sure isn't cooked, then go for it. AK is lucky in this respect. His beautiful location in this country is also right next to the ocean, and he could probably go buy the stuff directly off the boat and skirt the cooking issue completely. Unfortunately many of the landlocked individuals on this forum can't. READ THE LABEL!!

The walmart in Rapid City, SD does not carry uncooked shrimp that I know of, but it is possible to find it in some of the local grocery stores around here along with tilapia, salmon, and pollock.

Just aim for uncooked. On the shell is also preferred if your fish will eat it willingly.

Then you always have the option of not feeding your fish shrimp, if the thiaminase issue makes you that nervous.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

i have never had an issue getting uncooked shrimp, i see a lot more uncooked shrimp at stores than i see cooked shrimp


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## Plowboy

I must have been just geographically screwed when it comes to uncooked shrimp sales then. FML


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## Mason1

Yeah I think I said it before, but I can get a bag of 60 raw shell-on shrimp for about $3 at any grocery store by me.


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## jp80911

when I first had p (when I didn't know much about it) I fed them nothing but goldfish and lucky enough they never got sick over the years and even bred few times before I had to get rid of them, so I don't think you'll see the effect with shrimp that easily even if do use them as a stable food. at least we know for sure that there are few fish that doesn't contain thiaminase so for the ones that do concern about this issue can switch to for example perch, tilapia, catfish and butterfish (I found online that it doesn't contain thiaminase), etc.


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## Mr. Hannibal

Very interesting thread... i always use marine shrimp so it seems i don`t have to worry anyway...


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## smb

Such a great thread loaded with info from so many people. Nothing to add but wanted to say thank you for all the great links, info and posts. I believe many large scale wc's and genes account for almost all of the fishes growth and personality but Im definitely open to learning as the hobby is always everchanging with new findings.


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