# Responsible husbandry



## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

I think that with all the escapes currently around the nation, (of mostly big cats lately...tigers, snow leopards, canada lynx, and a bobcat) we should all be reminded how important responsible husbandry is!!!!!!


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

CrocKeeper said:


> I think that with all the escapes currently around the nation, (of mostly big cats lately...tigers, snow leopards, canada lynx, and a bobcat) we should all be reminded how important responsible husbandry is!!!!!!


 You can never bring that up enough!


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## TANK (Nov 18, 2003)

Correct! How many escapes will it take to get our hobby banned?? Not many I am willing to bet.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

I don't think anyone can care for a big cat. They are so big and powerful, NO-ONE can proide suitable conditions. I feel really sorry for all the animals being mistreated in America. I'm not saying there isn't cruelty in the UK, but making it legal to keep a tiger in your back garden is asking for trouble.


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## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

Leagle isn't always ethical. Treat your captives with the respet they desirve


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

> I don't think anyone can care for a big cat. They are so big and powerful, NO-ONE can proide suitable conditions. I feel really sorry for all the animals being mistreated in America. I'm not saying there isn't cruelty in the UK, but making it legal to keep a tiger in your back garden is asking for trouble.


If "no-one" had the ability, we would not have made the progress with so many endagered species, both in the zoo and aquarium sector, and the private sector. Big cats are very much like venomous snakes, they require VERY specialized care, and equipment and enclosures......but to blanketly say no-one is very wrong. It is aalso a mistake to attempt to make this an "american" problem....We enjoy a much greater freedom where wildlife is concerned, but idiots are cosmopolitan and are found in any country, and unfortunately they are the morons who make the headlines, and get wildlife banned....TN great example, a fisherman caught a HUGE "piranha" and made every news cast in east TN last week, unfortunately it was a pacu, not that it is better someone released a pacu...but all the general public remembers is "piranha"......it may cause trouble in TN.......


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

So what would you consider satisfactory conditions for a tiger? I've seen it on tv and most, if not all were kept in small cramped cages. Zoos have the space, time and knowledge to care from them, but some still don't give them enough space.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

I could write an essay about what i think about america, but i won't because almost everyone on this site is american and i don't want an argument. All i will say is that animals aren't given as much respect in america as in other countries, which i think is wrong. Look at what is happening to the enviroment due to ignorance, which is happening everywhere but especially in america.


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## lemmywinks (Jan 25, 2004)

have you ever seen the little market things in africa where they chop snakes heads off and do all sorts of terrible things to animals?

so dont be giving us that, they treat animals worse in america than any other country BS


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

I was diplomatic before.....obviously it was too vague so I will state things more clearly so you grasp it....
I do not wish to here your thoughts on America. You are obviously biased, and despite stating you would refrain from saying anything that might start an argument in your post you went ahead and did it anyway. Do not tell me animals are not given as much respect as they are in other countries, I have travelled fairly extensively, and can factually state that that is a false statement. Have the American hobbyists reached the level of some of Europes, no not on a general level, but that does not mean American hobbyists are disrespectful as a rule.
Environment...especially in America?????? Are you smoking crack?
Refrain from derogatory comments about my country, period.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

CrocKeeper said:


> I was diplomatic before.....obviously it was too vague so I will state things more clearly so you grasp it....
> I do not wish to here your thoughts on America. You are obviously biased, and despite stating you would refrain from saying anything that might start an argument in your post you went ahead and did it anyway. Do not tell me animals are not given as much respect as they are in other countries, I have travelled fairly extensively, and can factually state that that is a false statement. Have the American hobbyists reached the level of some of Europes, no not on a general level, but that does not mean American hobbyists are disrespectful as a rule.
> Environment...especially in America?????? Are you smoking crack?
> Refrain from derogatory comments about my country, period.


 I just meant that america is too lenient about what animals can be kept by who. If there were more rules so only responsible people could keep them then there wouldn't be a problem. I love america, its great, but there are problems with every country and in my opinion that is americas.


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

wolf, you were able to obtain a bird of prey ( an AMERICAN species at that) without any extensive training, or apprenticeship. You can't do that in America........


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## lemmywinks (Jan 25, 2004)

CrocKeeper said:


> wolf, you were able to obtain a bird of prey ( an AMERICAN species at that) without any extensive training, or apprenticeship. You can't do that in America........


 hahahaha


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

You got me there :laugh: . However there are only about 2000 falconers, none of the birds are taken from the wild, and breeders won't sell to idiots. Thsoe that do are remebered, and since falconry is such a close-knit society word spread fast, so a vreeder can earn a bad reputation fast, and never sell another bird.

I always end up arguing. I try and make a point or something, and it always comes out wrong. I won't go into it now, but for the last 2 years we have studied rivers and other case studies in geography. Every time a problem was mentioned my teacher would go on about america. Its hard not to listen, becuase it made sense. Stuff about destroying rivers and stuff.


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

I am happy you are apart of this site wolfish, and I have enjoyed some of your posts, but do not make the mistake of thinking that all of us are children, or uneducated or untravelled. We are not all apathetic to the causes that all people should take concern over, nor are we ones to stand by and not help others. Do we have pollution problems...all industrialized nations do.
Be very careful in the future, and word your posts carefully and make sure you do not attack another persons country again...I do not care who's, it is disrepectfull, impolite, and always incites an argument.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

If only everyone was as responsible as you, then people like me wouldn't have stuff to complain about. I do tend to be rather harsh, but atleast i'm honest in what i say.


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

> I just meant that america is too lenient about what animals can be kept by who. If there were more rules so only responsible people could keep them then there wouldn't be a problem.


wolf, you were able to obtain a bird of prey ( an AMERICAN species at that) without any extensive training, or apprenticeship. You can't do that in America........



> You got me there





> If only everyone was as responsible as you, then people like me wouldn't have stuff to complain about. I do tend to be rather harsh, but atleast i'm honest in what i say.


Not honest, biased. Read your own words above (those would be the ones in quotation boxes). This has nothing to do with me, as there are many more out there far more responsible than I.
Unless you enjoy the taste of your shoes, I strongly urge you to drop the subject.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

this is what i'm talking about. My entire point so far has been that only responsible people should keep such animals (like you). I jipped america becuase it is the only country i can think of (although there is probably loads) where there are little rules about keeping big cats and other animals. Consider the subject dropped. I didn't mean to piss you off, you know more about the subject than me, and everyone has needed your help at sometime, including me. I will certainly need you in the future aswell so it wouldn't benefit me to get on your wrong side.


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Back to responsible husbandry and the need for more of it everywhere then...subject dropped, hosility let go...


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

deal


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I would have to say that America is about the least likely country to make generalizations about. Did you forget how BIG this country is?

We have rivers that are as pure as they get and, yes, we had a river that was on fire.







I'm sure it's easy to bash the U.S. in other countries because we have such a variety of people that you're sure to find a good number of idiots. Heck, there's some that are even members of pfury!

Back on topic????


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

oops, you already got back when I was typing!

On topic...

It is crucial to spread the word that there is a keen eye on the hobbyist and the animals they keep. Also, one release equates to a national dilemna nowadays.

Oddly, most exotic species of fish come from fish stores or fish farms in Florida. Doesn't mean that we aren't immune to the consequences or making of a difference.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

One of the biggest problems is illegal imports. 1000's of exotic specieces are smuggled, most die







. There were 9 really cool chameleons at a butterfly park (big greenhouse) which were confiscated from a smuggler at an airport. If they weren't taken in they would kill them, and they're an endangered species. This isn't really the topic, but oh well it sort of fits in.


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

I could easily go off for a couple hours or so on the problems with the
pet industry and the "Animal collectors" as a whole.

Yes the United States is by far the largest single importer of
Exotic animals, be it Mammals, reptiles or fish.

Not all here like this at all, but we are also fiercely supportive of or right to
keep any animal we feel we can house and offer correct care too.

I do not think that Federal government interference will ever successfully cure the 
problem of Idiots that should not own pets, Perceptions of wildlife are what drives
the market in animals, People like Piranahas initially why? because of the lies that have been spread about them for centuries, Mean and Aggressive, and the
key word they are "Man-killers"

some get over those misconceptions and then come out with a greater understanding of those animals, as they learn more they drop the idiotic stereotypes of the animal, and begin to defend them against the idiot
remarks of the Uninformed.

Ranting again I'll end that,

Hobbyists need to begin policing themselves, Often we are just as highly 
qualified as any Fish and game dept. or any Zoo. We can change accepted
beliefs though pressure and education.

We offer more to the understanding of an animal because we are not
just Low-paid stressed workers Just doing our job. we do this because of or love of
the animal and have a strong bond to those animals we keep.

Yes I do know some keepers in Zoos that have that same love of the animals they keep, But I can tell you they are usually so beat down and demoralized by the lack of interest by those up above them, they even they are not doing what is truly best
for the individual animal.

I'll leave that rant open ended.

For you to say that Americans as a whole do not care for their environment or are not responsible as a whole is very very very insulting to those of us that have spent most of our natural lives to the conservation and preservation of the Natural
resources we have. There are a hell of alot of us that spend every waking hour, dollar and second of their time to the benefit of our Native Plants, animals and ecosystems. We fight a constant up hill battle that never seems to have an end.

Do not degrade our efforts by stereotyping our whole population.

Ranting again.

This can be a very Multi-dimensional subject.


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## TANK (Nov 18, 2003)

Disapointed which way this thread has turned. I would comment but I believe Crockeeper has said everything that needs to be said.


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## TormenT (Apr 1, 2004)

this thread is very entertaining


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

TormenT said:


> this thread is very entertaining


 It sucks for me.


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## Bawb2u (May 27, 2004)

I used to be very big in the captive herp industry, I've bred several species of reptiles and worked with one of the larger importers in the country. After several years, I developed a dislike of keeping animals in cages. There are far too many people that keep reptiles in "shoeboxes" or other inadequate housing. Even if the setup has the optimal hide spots, heat spots, environmental enhancements, whatever, it is still mainly TOO F'ING SMALL! Can anybody name any reptile species that takes, for itself a territory the size of a shoebox?, a 20 gallon tank?, a 4ft x 4ft plywood box? Even the lowly box turtle needs room to roam. I gave up all my reptiles after thinking about this for a while and while I HATE to involve the government in anything, I believe in cutting importation of reptile by huge percentages and forcing the herp industry to clean itself up, support captive breeding and license keepers of larger reptiles.
I know I'm climbing on a soapbox here but once you've seen 7 or 800 bags with 50+ reptiles collected from the wild, shoved into pens, scooped up and stuffed into pillow cases and shipped to an importer it makes you think. Think about it this way, for every ONE reptile that survives shipping, several hundred die, either in shipping or in the storage areas they are kept. In reality for your one nice store bought reptile, there may be a thousand that didn't make it that far.


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

> Think about it this way, for every ONE reptile that survives shipping, several hundred die, either in shipping or in the storage areas they are kept.


While there is without doubt room for serious improvement, the above is seriously exagerated. It wasn't so exaggerated in the 70's and early 80's but in today's world with today's shipping regs, there is not a thousand dead reptiles to every one that makes it, period.

I like the fact that you believe in making a statement about the herp industry cleaning itself up, *without doubt it needs to BADLY*. There are definately individuals out there who have no business housing imports...but to be constructive and accomplish what you want it is very important that facts are kept, and reality is used. Otherwise you join the ranks of Peta, and other organizations who use bullshit, and isolated cases to exemplify the "reality" they want the general public to have..


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## Bawb2u (May 27, 2004)

CrocKeeper said:


> > Think about it this way, for every ONE reptile that survives shipping, several hundred die, either in shipping or in the storage areas they are kept.
> 
> 
> While there is without doubt room for serious improvement, the above is seriously exagerated. It wasn't so exaggerated in the 70's and early 80's but in today's world with today's shipping regs, there is not a thousand dead reptiles to every one that makes it, period.
> ...


 If you add the animals that die in capture, storage, transit, wholesalers, retailers and poor husbandry, the number isn't all that far off. I didn't mean for it to sound as if all were attributable to shipping or that all deaths happen in the US. Granted, it was much worse previously but animals are still wild collected, their eggs or young gathered and then the adults are dumped with no regard as to their home territories. Virtually all savannah monitors, iguana's, nile monitors are wild imports. How many do you think survive to be older than, let's say 3 years of age? In 1994 the U.S. imported over 70,000 Ball Pythons, how many do you think are still living animals? In 2004 Surinam alone exported 42,800 iguanas, granted not all to the US, but even so, I can't imagine after seeing how many die, just in pet stores on display, how many survive to an appropriate age. Believe me, I'm no friend of PETA, but wholesale death for somebody to "own something cool" just leaves me cold.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

You make a very good point. I can believe how many die, i only buy captive bred reptiles because of this. There is a program called airport, and they often show the animals shipped in. Things like canaries are crammed in crates by the 1000, most die. 
Thinking about it though, what animal DOES live in such a small space? Maybe a tarantula. Most of the animal kingdom lives purely to feed and reproduce, and they move around to hunt for food, and their territory is the area they can hunt in. When you put an animal into a smaller space, it will adapt, the cage becomes its territory and it has food so is happy. I don't think this applies to wild caught animals though, they have already adapted to their wild enviroment and moving them is very unfair on them. Many animals though are unsuitable for captivity all together (sorry crockeeper but i think its true), they require a large territory to keep them occupied or they simply become bored and suffer from mental conditions, even if not obvious.
It all depends on your point of view though, many of the most interesting and fun reptiles are very dificult, or impossible to breed in captivity. Also most don't realise or are lied to about where the animal comes from, so they can't be blamed. Its up to the government to ensure the animals are transported humanely and the wild population isn't threatened.


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## PunkRockSkater39 (May 31, 2004)

i agree


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

> If you add the animals that die in capture, storage, transit, wholesalers, retailers and poor husbandry, the number isn't all that far off. I didn't mean for it to sound as if all were attributable to shipping or that all deaths happen in the US. Granted, it was much worse previously but animals are still wild collected, their eggs or young gathered and then the adults are dumped with no regard as to their home territories. Virtually all savannah monitors, iguana's, nile monitors are wild imports. How many do you think survive to be older than, let's say 3 years of age? In 1994 the U.S. imported over 70,000 Ball Pythons, how many do you think are still living animals? In 2004 Surinam alone exported 42,800 iguanas, granted not all to the US, but even so, I can't imagine after seeing how many die, just in pet stores on display, how many survive to an appropriate age. Believe me, I'm no friend of PETA, but wholesale death for somebody to "own something cool" just leaves me cold.


Without doubt there are many animals that never make it through there first year, let alone 3 or 4, that said, have you researched the number of HIDES exported from africa, from ball pythons, rock pythons, nile crocodiles, nile and savanna monitors? THEY DWARF LIVE ANIMAL EXPORTS.

Are the adults "dumpd" as you claim without regard as to home territorries? At one time yes, now no they are not. I was in Benine Africa to personally oversee a shipment of birds and reptiles, and was able to visit some very serious breeding operations, as well as some incredible capture hold and release programs for ball pythons, the numbers have actually increased for exports from benine because several local tribes now have a way to make money that they previously did not have, and they take the snakes welfare very seriously, which I can say in Africa, is an amazing thing as most animals are bush meat or hides in the eyes of most natives........


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

CrocKeeper said:


> > If you add the animals that die in capture, storage, transit, wholesalers, retailers and poor husbandry, the number isn't all that far off. I didn't mean for it to sound as if all were attributable to shipping or that all deaths happen in the US. Granted, it was much worse previously but animals are still wild collected, their eggs or young gathered and then the adults are dumped with no regard as to their home territories. Virtually all savannah monitors, iguana's, nile monitors are wild imports. How many do you think survive to be older than, let's say 3 years of age? In 1994 the U.S. imported over 70,000 Ball Pythons, how many do you think are still living animals? In 2004 Surinam alone exported 42,800 iguanas, granted not all to the US, but even so, I can't imagine after seeing how many die, just in pet stores on display, how many survive to an appropriate age. Believe me, I'm no friend of PETA, but wholesale death for somebody to "own something cool" just leaves me cold.
> 
> 
> Without doubt there are many animals that never make it through there first year, let alone 3 or 4, that said, have you researched the number of HIDES exported from africa, from ball pythons, rock pythons, nile crocodiles, nile and savanna monitors? THEY DWARF LIVE ANIMAL EXPORTS.
> ...


 Things are deffinatley improving, but the wild populations are deffianately suffering, mostly due to habitat loss, but taking thm away by the thousand doesn't help. Endangered species still get smuggled aswell.
Crockeeper, not to bring up the old argument but you have generalised africa, in the same way i generalised usa. The shipment you saw may be in the miniority. You are also biased because of your love for reptiles, so now you can see it from my point of view.


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

> Crockeeper, not to bring up the old argument but you have generalised africa, in the same way i generalised usa. The shipment you saw may be in the miniority. You are also biased because of your love for reptiles, so now you can see it from my point of view.


I actually did not generalize Africa the way you generalized the USA. I have been to Africa, I have specifically seen the things I spoke on, and I have been directly involved with the importation of wildlife from SEVERAL continents, and 50+ countries; so I am not talking out my ass. I am speaking from hands on knowledge in this arena. Are there smugglers, of course, as there are with drugs or anything else. As collectors, hobbyists and keepers, it is our responsibility to not keep illegal species or condone it so thatthere is not a market, and that all infractions get seriously treated and prosecuted.

Bawb2u makes EXCELLENT points and is very correct in the fact that the herp community needs to clean itself up; but as with anything in life you have bad and good. There are many wholesalers out there and jobbers that should plain never have been in business. There are keepers out there who without question are impulse buyers who NEVER should have been able to obtain the animals they took home, but there are also impulse buyers who become so enamored with the new captive that they pursue interests academically, or become serious breeders, active lobbyists for legislation to pass restrictions against what they did for thety realize the serious nature of it, etc.. There are also those who care and do what they do to attempt to establish captive breeding collections of species. I simply want to point out the "other side" of the story for clarification.



> habitat loss,


 I know only a part of your statement, BUT A HUGE ONE. This is the ultimate killer right here. Habitat loss is one of the major reasons I have collected over the years the collection I have, and have focused not on just keeping, but serious captive propagation efforts.


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## TANK (Nov 18, 2003)

While I agree that habitat loss is the ultimate problem with wildlife. I dont feel as a hobbiest that it is the hobbiests fault. Whether an animal is removed from its "home" is not going to make a difference to whoever is responsible for clearing out the land. Forests are going to be cleared and sub-divisions are going to be built. Such is the way of a growing world. 
If anything RESPONSIBLE keepers are helping to preserve the wildlife by learning/teaching about and by breeding the animals they keep. If it werent for ZOO's and private keepers alike many species of wildlife would not be on the comeback. The Condor is a good example of this.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

screw it i can't be bothered with this.


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## TANK (Nov 18, 2003)

I should clear this up. After reading my post it seems as though I am supporting animals being taken from there natural habitat. I DO NOT. I just wanted to make a point that industry and the growth of the human race is responsible for the loss of habitat NOT us hobbiests.
And the fact stands that because of some of the captive breeding programs some species that were doomed for extinction may actually stand a chance.

WOLFISH, Not everyone is going to share the same feelings or thoughts about a subject. But if everyone gets to express thier thoughts and it is all taken in collectively we can all learn something and maybe even change the way we feel/think about a certain subject.
Dont get frustrated with anything I might say, im still learning every day!


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

TANK said:


> I should clear this up. After reading my post it seems as though I am supporting animals being taken from there natural habitat. I DO NOT. I just wanted to make a point that industry and the growth of the human race is responsible for the loss of habitat NOT us hobbiests.
> And the fact stands that because of some of the captive breeding programs some species that were doomed for extinction may actually stand a chance.
> 
> WOLFISH, Not everyone is going to share the same feelings or thoughts about a subject. But if everyone gets to express thier thoughts and it is all taken in collectively we can all learn something and maybe even change the way we feel/think about a certain subject.
> Dont get frustrated with anything I might say, im still learning every day!


 I'm not annoyed with you atall, just frustrated about the argument with crockeeper, i don't want to add anything else to this thread.


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

> WOLFISH, Not everyone is going to share the same feelings or thoughts about a subject. But if everyone gets to express thier thoughts and it is all taken in collectively we can all learn something and maybe even change the way we feel/think about a certain subject.
> Dont get frustrated with anything I might say, im still learning every day!


























We all learn every day hopefully.

Everyone has an opinion, and they are entitled to it; would not we live in a dull place were it any other way?


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