# Experimenting w/ breeding P. caribe, ver 2.0



## primetime3wise

i decided to take a shot at breeding my caribe, again. this time around i am going a different route to see if i can get them stimulated enough to breed.

most of this i got from jim smith, who bred the species before, and i am just emulating what worked for him. i still think it's a long shot, though, and jim was only able to get them going one time, that is, without subsequent spawns.

the actual method is not complex, and to me, a little counter-intuitive to what i would have expected to work.

i am trying this w/ 5 adults, all around 7"-8"+, in a 75g .

when simulating the dry season, i am keeping the water level at 1/2 of full. however, the main difference here, is that i am keeping them tanks temp around 74F for the next 2 months or so. then, after that time frame i will be adding warmer water and bringing the tank temp way up to like 82 to 84. this is much different from my last time as, during the dry season i kept the water temp up, first, to like 84, then lowered it when i simulated the rainy season. i also was a little harsher with the dry season keeping the water 1/4 of full.

it's possible this could work. when i bred rbp and macs, when i turned up the temp on their tanks, this is what induced spawning...esp. for the macs as i had 3 pairs mating w/in 48 hours of each other.

other than that, i again am covering the sides of the tank to keep them from being distracted by movement outside the tank. i am also heavily planting the tank's circumference and using a bunch of floating plants. i also am using coconut fiber as it may help give them an area on which to breed. in of itself it probably means little, but i have heard of others using it for them to spawn on.


----------



## locust

Well when you read the thread on the piraya reaching spawning point you think the difference here is the heavily planted tank . Perhaps the tank size wasnt big enough considering the aggression in the species once conditioned to spawn in that the female couldnt get away from the spawning area as well. I hope something happens with these caribe!


----------



## Winkyee

Good luck man,
I hope the cooling does it for you.


----------



## bigshawn

I'm on top of this, and good luck prime


----------



## frankie09c

BEST OF LUCK, keep us updated


----------



## memento

Good luck, good to hear Jim's method will be used again!
Keep us informed, would be great if you succeeded !


----------



## primetime3wise

it will be cool if we find something that seems to work. Winkyee mentioned something similar to what i am trying, but with north american fish.


----------



## Trigga

nice to hear your giving it another shot man


----------



## primetime3wise

trying to decide if i should keep the tank covered on all the sides. these guys aren't any more skittish than rbp or macs that i have bred...probably even less so. also, i have the tank planted heavily w/ plants all around the circumference, and a bunch of floating ones. they are also in my basement, so, they only get disrupted a few times per day, really quickly, passing by their tank about 4-5 feet away from the bottom of the stairs.

part of it is i am worried about uneaten food. also, i would like to see what's going on in there.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

maybe get some blackwater extract and tint the water


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

i think caribe are from a region with primarily floating plants like duckweed and water lettuce so mayby something like that instead of other plants. Best of luck. Covering the sides wont hurt so you may as well. Mayby just leave an end open to view from there


----------



## Trigga

i would cover up the sides primetime.. allow them to feel as comfortable as possible


----------



## memento

I would suggest covering all sides. You could, like Jim, cut some holes in the frontcover too see through.
But skittish or not, disrupting their mood is something to prevent as good as possible I guess


----------



## bigshawn

Also will you be using peat?


----------



## primetime3wise

i did go ahead and covered the sides back up, it certainly can't hurt.

i did use peat last time i attempted this, as well as RO water, but i am leaning towards just using regular tapwater, thereby keeping the water chemistry as stable as possible.


----------



## jp80911

won't the water parameter in the wild during dry season be much worse as compare to during raining season?
I mean a lot of them are trapped in isolated pools without new water being added to dilute nitrate and with lots of dead fish decaying in the pool the water parameter should be pretty far off from ideal.
maybe hold off water change for a period of time and reduce/stop feeding all together will make it more similar to what they would've experienced during dry season in the wild???
just some thoughts...


----------



## memento

jp80911 said:


> won't the water parameter in the wild during dry season be much worse as compare to during raining season?
> I mean a lot of them are trapped in isolated pools without new water being added to dilute nitrate and with lots of dead fish decaying in the pool the water parameter should be pretty far off from ideal.
> maybe hold off water change for a period of time and reduce/stop feeding all together will make it more similar to what they would've experienced during dry season in the wild???
> just some thoughts...


That part is covered in Jim's description : during the simulation of dry season, he switched off the filters. That's why he advised the air stones on each sides, keeping the temperature homogeneous and keeping the water circulating without filterpumps.
He also reduced the waterchanges.

So you're right


----------



## thedude8

ever try this or heard of anyone who actually have had success with it?

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/s...hlight=breeding

stimulates constant rain fall, not to hard to make either


----------



## bigshawn

^^^^great info...........


----------



## Uncle Jesse

thedude8 said:


> you ever try a rain system, something along the lines of this
> 
> http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/s...hlight=breeding
> 
> stimulates constant rain falling on the fish during the rainy season, not to hard to make either.


Wow that guy is pretty full of himself. The Ps breed after a water change because they know it will be awhile until another water change? An AC500 is all you need for a 125gal with 8 adult Ps???

I say keep doing what your doing. Maybe try the rain thing. Buy most importantly stick with it.


----------



## thedude8

Foodstamp said:


> you ever try a rain system, something along the lines of this
> 
> http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/s...hlight=breeding
> 
> stimulates constant rain fall.


Wow that guy is pretty full of himself. The Ps breed after a water change because they know it will be awhile until another water change? An AC500 is all you need for a 125gal with 8 adult Ps???

I say keep doing what your doing. Maybe try the rain thing. Buy most importantly stick with it.
[/quote]

ya, he kind of is. seemed like a good idea when I read it along time ago, was wondering if anyone else actually tried it or if anyone thinks it may actually help.

then again a powerhead aimed above the water would probably be equally as effective...


----------



## Sheppard

This is great that you're giving it another shot.

I haven't bred before so my knowledge is limited on the subject, so my question is really to educate myself...Is a 75g sufficient enough for 5 adult Caribe to breed in? Are there advantages/disadvantages to breed in either a large tank or close quarters?


----------



## jp80911

Foodstamp said:


> This is great that you're giving it another shot.
> 
> I haven't bred before so my knowledge is limited on the subject, so my question is really to educate myself...Is a 75g sufficient enough for 5 adult Caribe to breed in? Are there advantages/disadvantages to breed in either a large tank or close quarters?


no idea about caribas but I had 7 reds bred in 45g before


----------



## TJcali

Good to see your trying it again primtime I wish you the best of luck brotha and

hopefully this time you'll get some caribe fry


----------



## primetime3wise

the first time i attempted this i really went out of my way to simulate the wet/dry seasons. during the dry season keeping the water @ about 84 or so, lowering the water level to 1/4 of full, turning off filters, reducing feedings, etc...

this time, the approach is much different...relying on a long, initial cooling period, 2 months of 74F or so, then eventually raising the temp one day to like 82+ and filling the tank back up. it really goes against the idea of an initital, long, dry season with really warm and shallow waters.

jim told me he tried the standard approach, which i first mentioned, without success. only with this initial cooling period did he have success, and, i believe he tried several different approaches. he got the idea from breeding boas, and thought it might work in piranhas. Winkyee also msg'd me about this approach being successful with some North American fish.

some of those other ideas may help, and as i get closer to the end of the 2 months, i will try some as they can't hurt...reduced feedings, rainfall, feeding feeders, and filling the tank back up on a rainy day.

the trick is getting them in the mood. so, hopefully when the temp on my 75g is bumped way up, again, to 82 or so, that will get them going.


----------



## primetime3wise

Sheppard said:


> This is great that you're giving it another shot.
> 
> I haven't bred before so my knowledge is limited on the subject, so my question is really to educate myself...Is a 75g sufficient enough for 5 adult Caribe to breed in? Are there advantages/disadvantages to breed in either a large tank or close quarters?


i think a 75g is sufficient. i had a similiar setup when i bred red bellies, and i have heard of people getting 3 pairs of reds going in a 75g. i also think jim was using a similar sized setup. if it's a matter of feeling comfortable, they are also less skittish than pygo shoals i have had before in a similar sized setup.

i just have floating plants in there, tank about 60% full of water and all the sides covered. i have noticed them getting more jumpy, initially, with all the sides covered...perhaps because they can't see me at all. it is something to keep an idea of and hopefully they will acclimate to that quickly.


----------



## Piro

primetime3wise said:


> This is great that you're giving it another shot.
> 
> I haven't bred before so my knowledge is limited on the subject, so my question is really to educate myself...Is a 75g sufficient enough for 5 adult Caribe to breed in? Are there advantages/disadvantages to breed in either a large tank or close quarters?


i think a 75g is sufficient. i had a similiar setup when i bred red bellies, and i have heard of people getting 3 pairs of reds going in a 75g. i also think jim was using a similar sized setup. if it's a matter of feeling comfortable, they are also less skittish than pygo shoals i have had before in a similar sized setup.

i just have floating plants in there, tank about 60% full of water and all the sides covered. i have noticed them getting more jumpy, initially, with all the sides covered...perhaps because they can't see me at all. it is something to keep an idea of and hopefully they will acclimate to that quickly.
[/quote]

red's are not the same as caribe,I think caribe need much more room then red's to breed, they are more agressive towards eachother. Red's are easy to breed even in the smallest tanks. But I hope it works out well for you.. good luck with it.


----------



## locust

Primetime did J.Smith give you any indication that he could see an egg bulge in his spawning female?
Did he say the male initiated the spawning?


----------



## primetime3wise

Piro said:


> This is great that you're giving it another shot.
> 
> I haven't bred before so my knowledge is limited on the subject, so my question is really to educate myself...Is a 75g sufficient enough for 5 adult Caribe to breed in? Are there advantages/disadvantages to breed in either a large tank or close quarters?


i think a 75g is sufficient. i had a similiar setup when i bred red bellies, and i have heard of people getting 3 pairs of reds going in a 75g. i also think jim was using a similar sized setup. if it's a matter of feeling comfortable, they are also less skittish than pygo shoals i have had before in a similar sized setup.

i just have floating plants in there, tank about 60% full of water and all the sides covered. i have noticed them getting more jumpy, initially, with all the sides covered...perhaps because they can't see me at all. it is something to keep an idea of and hopefully they will acclimate to that quickly.
[/quote]

red's are not the same as caribe,I think caribe need much more room then red's to breed, they are more agressive towards eachother. Red's are easy to breed even in the smallest tanks. But I hope it works out well for you.. good luck with it.
[/quote]

actually jim bred them in a 55g only, so a 75g is def. possible. and from what he told me, had 6 adults in there.


----------



## primetime3wise

locust said:


> Primetime did J.Smith give you any indication that he could see an egg bulge in his spawning female?
> Did he say the male initiated the spawning?


nothing in particular, other than he could see prespawning behavior during the 2 months of cool water, and that the females got fat.

at the very least that gives me something to look for...


----------



## memento

Jim indeed used a 55 gallon for breeding. So tank size is not the ,ost important factor.
However the barometric pressure is something you may want to consider : Jim strongly believed it had an influence on them and in nature, it will indeed drop during the mating season.


----------



## locust

How bout some high protein foods for conditioning and egg developement, heart, earthworms.


----------



## bigshawn

Where can one find info on Jim Smith breeding carbe I would love to read and pick his brian a Little........


----------



## locust

There some info on Franks site


----------



## bigshawn

^^^^Thank you read that any other info or is that it?


----------



## primetime3wise

Lucien said:


> Jim indeed used a 55 gallon for breeding. So tank size is not the ,ost important factor.
> However the barometric pressure is something you may want to consider : Jim strongly believed it had an influence on them and in nature, it will indeed drop during the mating season.


i do plan on waiting for a nice rainy day on which to refill the tank


----------



## memento

bigshawn said:


> ^^^^Thank you read that any other info or is that it?


Since this topic is becoming serious on the matter, I think it might be wise to post Jim's own words over here. For the narrow-minded who hold on to a "if there ain't no pics, it didn't happen" belief : please stay out of this. You'll find enough other topics where Jim has got bashed and actually had to defend his own experience.
I decided to ask him for his own story, since after even someone claiming he KNEW it didn't happen, it got impossible for me to find out what is truth and what not.
All I knew was, that both Frank and Jeff called him a trustworthy man, and since I consider them both reliable guys, I trusted their opinion on Jim.

So I asked Jim, and got to kinda know him as a very polite, kind man who was happy to help out. He's a most polite and decent man, as long as others treat him like that.
So all in all, I'll post his own story over here. It's up to everyone to decide for himself what to believe or not, but please don't use this topic for personal opinions that are not based on anything.
Let's stay focussed on the main topic : breeding caribas.

*I will now try to relate what was done to breed caribe, of course when I did it they where called Notatus. I did this many years ago and so I am always remembering small details I had forgotten. I bred fish for fun , everything from Guppies to Nobles Gorami.
This is a list of the materials I had.
1. 55 gal. tank
2. submersible heater , I used 2 one at each end of the tank and they where 100 watt
3.dark gravel about 2 inches which was mixed with white sand about 10%
4.Hygrophilia
5.One large piece of african root wood
6.two airstones ...medium bubble
7.Flor. strip light
8. corner filters
9. bird vitamins...Avatron
10. Black water tonic two good squirts
11. Marine trace elements two teaspoons... HW marine
12. marine salt about 1/8 cup
13 Brown spawning mats 2
14 some viney stuff I got from the wild...looked like a birds nest
15 black construction paper
16 syringe for injecting the smelt
17 diatom filter
18 garden hose
19. six piranhas Two female rest males bought young and raised up.
I think thats everything but if I remember more I will sent you a e-mail.
The tank was set up at first with heavy plants I used hygo because it is so tough and grows rapidly. I placed the drift wood in the middle of the tank. The airstone where placed on either end of the tank and the same with the corner filters. I changed 20% of the water twice a week and ran the diatom twice a month. The PH of the tank ran around 6.8 to 7.0 and I kept the temp. at 80 to 82F. I fed them feeders,crayfish,night crawlers,beefheart, frozen smelt which I injected vit. and a homemade food. The night crawlers and fresh beefheart were the main food. I had no thought of breeding at this point but as the fish got larger I decided to try, by the way I started with ten but ended up with six. 
To breed them I decided I needed to simulate the wild so I adjusted day night cycle and reduced the light by using a smaller reflector across the width of the tank instead of the length. I reduced the water level slowly to about half full ,reduced the temp. to about 74 and increased feeding. I also cut way back on water changes and diatom use. Because these fish are so hyper I covered the tanks glass with black construction paper and cut observation flaps . I removed half the Hygro and put in the spawning mats and the birdnest stuff. This conditioning went on for about 2 months you could see the piranhas going through pre spawning behaviour and the females got quite fat. I then waited for a huge storm which came and in the middle of that storm I filled the tank with the garden hose using my finger to create a hard flow which I spread across the whole surface back and forth till the tank was full, the water I filled with was hotter than the tank about 80F and the PH of the tap water was 7.4 I also added some ammonia binder so the change in PH didn't cause me a problem. The next day about 10 am I went down to check things and there where thousands of eggs and most the piranhas were huddled on the opossite side. I put in a divider and in a couple days at 82 F I had fry. I fed them on baby brine and infusoria and like it or not, they picked off their smaller brothers and sisters. I traded them to a pet shop for supplies. at the time I had close to two hundred tanks setup so as you can imagine even then it was costly. I must also say I tried again but to no avail the fish would going then for some reason just stop.*

Of course, curious as I am I asked some more questions and got them answered :

*The Piranhas were about 5 inches to 8 Inches maybe a bit larger as I didn't measure them can't be more accurate but the female that bred was the biggest in the tank. Yes I covered all the sides with black paper. I don't know how long the Low was overhead but the storm at its most intense lasted around a hour or so.
I have bred many fish in a 55, I will agree seems small but, we'll breed in the backseat of a volkwagons lol ,so guess 55 was fine, as you pointed out it may be important, that's what we are trying to find out. The gravel was 2 inches deep the grains where maybe 1/8 inch. The mixture was 10 % sand 90 % gravel. Flo. is a fluorescent light strip in which I used Phillips daylight bulbs. The filters were internal and I used gravel and poly- fil. I don't remember size but they were fairly large. I thought I could tell the sex before the spawn but as it turned out One of the fish I thought was a female turned out to be a male ,so I only knew for sure once spawning happened. The fish get more agressive and they go into a pre spawn, body waggin, color changes and other behaviours very much like normal red bellies. I have had red bellies and corydoras cats actually breed in my store tanks during strong thunderstorms. I belive that the storm the light cycle and good feeding are some of the most important details. A lot of animals are triggered by the end of the dry season and this is what you are trying to do, trick the fish.*

So, that's about all there is to it : Jim's own words on it.


----------



## bigshawn

thank you Lucien.........


----------



## primetime3wise

as Lucien said, please take Jim's account as is, not whether people think it is the proper way, right/wrong, or if you believe it didn't happen, otherwise i will asked for the thread to be closed if it turns into attacks.


----------



## memento

primetime3wise said:


> as Lucien said, please take Jim's account as is, not whether people think it is the proper way, right/wrong, or if you believe it didn't happen, otherwise i will asked for the thread to be closed if it turns into attacks.


Amen to that.


----------



## Piro

good report, can't wait to see some pic's if they are bred again. I couldn't believe it was possible in such a small tank, but I believe this report is reliable with all its details

thanks for posting


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

I wonder.... Someone should try breeding them in a pool. It would be like a big pond and you wouldnt have to worry about covering sides.


----------



## memento

*Hello, I am glad the post has been received with enthusiasm ,and I too hope someone will be successful...that would be so great. I traded e-mail with Kevin and like I told him hopefully we can get some answers to what triggers these fish to spawn. Kevin seems like a devoted hobbyist and a nice man so have the fingers crossed for him. I have no problem with anyone posting the info. as long as they are trying to help the hobby. I again Thank You for your interest and wish you the best of luck and good fortune . 
Jim*

So, good luck from the man himself Primetime3wise


----------



## primetime3wise

CombiChrist said:


> I wonder.... Someone should try breeding them in a pool. It would be like a big pond and you wouldnt have to worry about covering sides.


sounds like a great idea if you can do it. i think it would be cool to even make a large indoor pond, maybe in like your basement. i am sure that all that size and privacy would help some.


----------



## Us And Them

The First time Primetime was trying to breed his Cariba I made a suggestion to Cover all Sides , as I felt it may make them way more comfortable not having to worry about whats going on outside the tank. And it worked for Jim. Dont give up with that Prime !


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Thats why I say a "pond" would be a good idea. The fish cant see outside other then the top. Almost like being in a river. The only problem I could see is finding eggs, you would probly have to watch for a pair.


----------



## memento

primetime3wise said:


> *Hello, I am glad the post has been received with enthusiasm ,and I too hope someone will be successful...that would be so great. I traded e-mail with Kevin and like I told him hopefully we can get some answers to what triggers these fish to spawn. Kevin seems like a devoted hobbyist and a nice man so have the fingers crossed for him. I have no problem with anyone posting the info. as long as they are trying to help the hobby. I again Thank You for your interest and wish you the best of luck and good fortune .
> Jim*
> 
> So, good luck from the man himself Primetime3wise












sounds good to me. jim seems like a real nice guy, himself, and has been helpful and open to me emailing him. i hope we can discover what gets these fish going. with all the help and ideas i am receiving, sooner or later i think we will stumble upon what variables are important in getting them to spawn.

What esp. gives me some confidence about the way i am approaching it, is that jim said he tried a few different methods and this is the one that worked. Then, shortly after Winkyee said that he had heard of some fish spawning after beginning the process with an extended cooling period.

[/quote]
Indeed he seems like a polite and honest man, a nice guy to talk with.
If you have any additions to his words I posted, any additional details or whatever, please let me know


----------



## primetime3wise

tank is steady @ 74, 50% full, and i will be looking for a nice rainy day in late april/early may in which to fill it back up and up to 82 or so. the front of the tank is completely covered with black plastic garbage bags, as well as most of the sides. i split the tank into two areas with a nice large, peice of decor...hopefully one will hang onto one of them to use as a breeding spot. i also partially buried some coconut fiber into gravel, in case they want to breed on it. lastly, i used a bunch of fake, floating plants to give them cover and feel more secure.

i have plenty of time to research and decide some other options...black water extract, RO water, etc, and decide if i want to use them. i am leaning towards not much more, if any, changes to the tank, relying on the cooling period to get them going, and having steady conditions otherwise...in terms of ph, esp..


----------



## memento

primetime3wise said:


> i am leaning towards not much more, if any, changes to the tank, relying on the cooling period to get them going, and having steady conditions otherwise...in terms of ph, esp..


Why, the natural environment during dry season won't be very stable I guess... Jim even reduced the filtering. I'd say the waterlevels may get a little worse coming weeks








Good luck though, would be damn nice if you managed


----------



## primetime3wise

i'm not really simulating the wet/dry seasons normally, if at all, so all of this is a little puzzling. my temp is now 74F. normally, during the dry season, i would have the water temp in the low 80's for an extended period. then, i would add cooler water to simulate the onset of the rainy season and hope they breed from there. this is similar to my first shot at this, and what i might try again if this fails. however, if i do i will use a much more extended dry season than i did the first time around. it's also what is similar to getting reds or macs going...a nice cool water change, then letting the temp raise back up to 82F+. those 2 species, though, will breed readily as long as conditions are good, the warmer water just acting as a stimulus.

this attempt is really using the initial cooling period of 2 months as the stimulus. if i had to rationalize it, i would say the difference between 74 and 82 degree water is what will, hopefully, get them stimulated to breed. everything else...who knows if it matters. i could use an RO unit i have to reduce PH and replicate rain water once i start filling the tank back up.


----------



## bigshawn

What is you ph now?


----------



## primetime3wise

^ 7.6, not worried about it now though.

if w/in a few weeks i start to see any of them look like they are starting to bulge from eggs, that would give me some degree of confidence in this method.


----------



## bigshawn

k, thank you


----------



## primetime3wise

here is taken form March '09 article: "Reproductive biology of freshwater fishes from the Venezuelan floodplains" of the journal of: "Fish Physiology and Biochemistry"

Fig. 1 Annual variation of rainfall, temperature, and the gonadosomatic index (GSI) of P. cariba, during the reproductive cycle in the Venezuelan floodplains. Each point represents the mean ± S.E., from 5 to 15 individuals

very cool chart, imo, as the amount of info. out there is very limited


----------



## bigshawn

Yes that is good info to have I wonder if piraya's have info like this


----------



## Gigante Pirana

primetime3wise said:


> ^ 7.6, not worried about it now though.
> 
> if w/in a few weeks i start to see any of them look like they are starting to bulge from eggs, that would give me some degree of confidence in this method.


Did you read the whole paper, pretty good stuff?


----------



## Gigante Pirana

bigshawn said:


> Yes that is good info to have I wonder if piraya's have info like this


Yes if you can somehow get this:

Ferreira, R. M. A., Bazzoli, N., Rizzo, E.Sato, Y. (1996). Aspectos reprodutivos da piranha, Pygocentrus piraya (Teleostei, Characiformes), espécie nativa da bacia do Rio São Francisco. Arquivo Brasileiro de Medicina Veterinária e Zootecnia 48, 71-76


----------



## primetime3wise

Gigante Pirana said:


> ^ 7.6, not worried about it now though.
> 
> if w/in a few weeks i start to see any of them look like they are starting to bulge from eggs, that would give me some degree of confidence in this method.


Did you read the whole paper, pretty good stuff?
[/quote]

yeah good stuff, and one of the main reasons i am ambivalent about what i am doing, but i will take this through this approach. if not, then another try around a more standard wet/dry season approach, with warmer water, then cooler....that is, a much longer dry season than my first try, but we'll see first what happens with this.

may as well link it again, as i did in my first attempt:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g5l31475154t0196/


----------



## bigshawn

Gigante Pirana said:


> Yes that is good info to have I wonder if piraya's have info like this


Yes if you can somehow get this:

Ferreira, R. M. A., Bazzoli, N., Rizzo, E.Sato, Y. (1996). Aspectos reprodutivos da piranha, Pygocentrus piraya (Teleostei, Characiformes), espécie nativa da bacia do Rio São Francisco. Arquivo Brasileiro de Medicina Veterinária e Zootecnia 48, 71-76
[/quote]

Thanks I'll try and look this up


----------



## memento

Sounds reasonabe primetime








I trust you think over the decisions very well, so don't misunderstand my questioning. It's not that I don't have faith in your decisions and methods but I want to be damn sure that IF you get a succesful spawning, you'll remember every little detail of this cause I'll be asking for them


----------



## primetime3wise

CombiChrist said:


> Sounds reasonabe primetime
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I trust you think over the decisions very well, so don't misunderstand my questioning. It's not that I don't have faith in your decisions and methods but I want to be damn sure that IF you get a succesful spawning, you'll remember every little detail of this cause I'll be asking for them


we'll see what happens. i *think* many have tried the more standard approach to the wet/dry seasons, without success. i believe jim did, as well, and this is the only thing that worked.


----------



## primetime3wise

here's some more details, off the top of me head... for the next 2 months:

1)i will only vac and do small water change on caribe 75g tank, 1x/per month, usually do one every 7-10 days
2)feeding: i typically feed my adult p's moderate amount, 3x/week. for the first month i will cut it down to 2x/week, then the last month 1x/week. on the day of filling the tank back up, may use feeders to get them excited.
3)light: this could be an important, overlooked, signal for them to start going at it w/ shorter amounts of day light nearing breeding, wet, season. i have them on a timed light, right now, about 14 hours of light, but will reduce it down to 10-12 as i near the time i fill the tank back up.

i'll list more as time goes on. the only big consideration, left, is whether to adjust the tank's ph and hardness, when i fill it completely back up. I do have an RO unit and some blackwater extract, but, i believe i read somewhere it said they are not found in blackwater areas.


----------



## memento

About 250 miles from the origin of Orinoco, is an open branch to Rio *****...


----------



## primetime3wise

update: i vac'd and did a small, about 10% water change. i will only be cleaning the tank 1x/month. also, i cut their feeding down to 2x/week for first month and will go down to 1x/week after that, for like another month, until i fill the tank back up on a rainy day...then some large feeders to get them excited.

also, i added a little peat to the filter and even a little black water extract. i read ph change can be a trigger, so trying to get it down to like 6-6.5, then more towards neutral or slightly alkaline when i fill the tank back up.

tank is covered on all but 1 side, with an opening to pear through. also, it now is heavily planted w/ floating plants only, and a nice large piece of decor in the middle to section the tank in half and hopefully act as a territorial boundary.

other than that, they are chillin' in the tank @ 74, not much movement at all with the tank being half empty and the temp so low. we'll see, i hope this initial cooling period does the trick. early next month i will start to really look for and hope a female looks like she might be full of eggs and ready to go, i just don't want to disturb them much now.


----------



## Trigga

so wait low temps and low tank level?

isnt the rainy season the time when food and space is most abdundant?


----------



## memento

Thanks for the update. I hope you're making some pics of your set-up ? Would be nice to shoot some


----------



## primetime3wise

Trigga said:


> Thanks for the update. I hope you're making some pics of your set-up ? Would be nice to shoot some


yeah i will take some.


----------



## philbert

keep up the good work


----------



## bigshawn

anything new prime, just had some storms come thru?


----------



## primetime3wise

bigshawn said:


> anything new prime, just had some storms come thru?


not much, they are just chilling in a 75g, temp @ 74. i don't expect much until i bump the temp up, but i still have another month before i do that...two months of an initial cooling period, followed by warm water around 82-84.

they have some nice privacy, as i only check on them every few days, and the tank is nicely covered up and in my basement.

a few are darker than the other ones, whether that means anything is anyone's guess. i think i'll have to bug them just to see if any of them looks like it may be a female bulging from eggs.


----------



## bigshawn

Ok, thank you, I'll check back in a month............


----------



## Trigga

Cool man I was just wondering.. If Jim had success with it no harm in trying it

keep it up


----------



## primetime3wise

thanks guys. if this fails i may try a standard wet/dry season again, but take the dry season much longer than my first attempt, higher temps for like 2 months instead of only a few weeks like i originally did.


----------



## memento

Still waiting for some pictures of the set-up









Would be great if this works !


----------



## primetime3wise

CombiChrist said:


> Still waiting for some pictures of the set-up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would be great if this works !


ok i will try and get some over the weekend.


----------



## SirusX1721

Awesome and best of luck! Would love to see this all work out. I've had luck with Red's, but hey...who hasn't? Lol.


----------



## Winkyee

Good Luck man, we're all pulling for you.


----------



## primetime3wise

thanks everyone. here are some snaps of what the tank looks like, 5 adult caribe. some are with flash and some not...the ones w/out are blurry, but you can get a better idea of the darkness of the fish. i am gonna add a nice large piece of decor in the middle so they can be more territorial, it's empty now just a lot floating plants.

be kind with comments on them as they are a little beat up, some heater burn from my first attempt, and scrapes from fighting....


----------



## bigshawn

Looking good k, keep us up-dated..........


----------



## memento

Looking good







Thanx for the update and the pics !


----------



## His Majesty

thanks for the update. hope you manage to get some better results this time round.

keep up the good work


----------



## primetime3wise

thanks for the support and kind words guys. it's just a few more weeks, then on a nice rainy day i will be filling the tank all the way up









i've cut feedings to once/week. about a week before filling the tank back up i will feed 3x that week, and even some feeders on that day. i may even raise the temp more than jim did, perhaps to like 84 or so...i know my macs went nuts breeding when i bumped it that high.

tank is now on the soft, acidic side. i read ph can help as a stimulant to help them get going, and my tap water is fairly hard and alkaline.


----------



## memento

A little higher temperature might be a good thought








Good luck, I'll wait patiently for another couple of weeks


----------



## memen

A great experiment. I wish you to accomplish this breeding with success... !

Congrats and keep us updated.


----------



## Piro

Still no progress??


----------



## primetime3wise

Piro said:


> Still no progress??


no, they are still just chilling and i don't expect anything to happen, if it does, until i ramp up the tank's temperature, towards the end of this month.


----------



## primetime3wise

i just did a real small vac and water change, just like 5 gallons, and replaced media including peat. for about 5-10 minutes, very briefly, they turned extremely dark, almost, not quite, as dark as the one on this page....http://www.opefe.com/breeding_Pcariba.html

it was def. very noticeable though, and must mean that i am doing something right. i'm not saying they are going to breed, just that i must be on the right track with some of the variables, and it is worth noting.

that was also the first vac for that tank in about a month, and i am feeding once/week. starting next week i will feed 3-4x that week, and shoot for filling the tank back up with water to 82-84F, that weekend, and using feeders only on the day the tank is filled.

oh yeah and i tossed in some decor in the middle of the tank to divide it up in half...hopefully a pair will claim one half. they started fighting immediately after i covered the sides back up, which is no surprise.


----------



## bigshawn

on the right track (I hope) fingers crossed......................................


----------



## primetime3wise

bigshawn said:


> on the right track (I hope) fingers crossed......................................


i was thinking about it and i speculate it may have been ph change, as i don't know what else would have caused it. it was not a drastic temp change or anything. i am using peat and my tank's ph is around 6.2 now, compared with our 7.6-7.8 lake erie tap water.


----------



## RuthlessCarnage

Try using Pur Amazon instead of the peat moss. The stuff is great and induces breeding with most amazonian fish as well as replicate amazon conditions and has natural added benefits. Also brings out colours in washed out specimens.


----------



## Pirambeba

RuthlessCarnage said:


> Try using Pur Amazon instead of the peat moss. The stuff is great and induces breeding with most amazonian fish as well as replicate amazon conditions and has natural added benefits. Also brings out colours in washed out specimens.


R.C. Was reffering to PŪRA Amazon it's by Magnavore LLC. it does induce breeding in most soft water species, I've had a lot of luck using it in some of my previous setups, and I'm currently using it with my current one







it is a media additive so you'll have to make space in your filter. It will darken the water slightly giving it a golden tone, but if you don't really mind that I also recommend it.


----------



## RuthlessCarnage

I didn't look at all the comments just a suggestion.


----------



## memento

Indeed the right track...
We'll wait and see how this works out


----------



## primetime3wise

what i'm going to do is fill the tank to about 75% a few days before i fill it 100%, but keeping the cooler temps, and see if that inspires them. right now @ 50% of full there is not enough room for them to really establish a territory and go at it, esp. with the floating plants. possibly the extended cool temps may be enough. we'll see, the fact they got so dark yesterday got me thinking about doing this.

i won't be using any liquid additives because the ph, hardness would fluctuate too much, vs. peat that keeps it more stable. i don't want any drastic changes until it is filled 100%, counting on the differences in ph, temp to get them going.


----------



## primetime3wise

thinking about it a little more, something like that pura amazon might be worth a try, or even some blackwater extract, using it only when i fill the tank to 75%, but still keeping water cooler. maybe that might help induce them...considering in nature they would breed in the cooler temps.


----------



## Pirambeba

primetime3wise said:


> thinking about it a little more, something like that pura amazon might be worth a try, or even some blackwater extract, using it only when i fill the tank to 75%, but still keeping water cooler. maybe that might help induce them...considering in nature they would breed in the cooler temps.


it's pretty similar to peat in the sense that it keeps the ph pretty consistant, I've had luck with it before. I actually told R.C. about the stuff he seemed to like the positive effects, I think you should give it a try. Just be sure to monitor your ph levels because I don't know how it'll work in conjunction with the peat already present in the water.


----------



## Trigga

i would use a filter media rather than a liquid additive... few times through the filters and that stuff is gone which could affect the ph

just my 2 cents


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

I agree with trigga. The liquid stuff actually goes away pretty fast. You can try it though.


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

id use peat pellets, peat moss in filter bags, or make your own bwe concentrate, but ive heard this can be messy and smell.


----------



## memento

Difficult decision, but I wouldn't use additives right now. What's triggering the spawning, what it is that brings them in the mood I mean, is still the only key factor and the problem with using additives, is that you'll never know if the method itself would have been sufficient.


----------



## philbert

jigga jigga yea.... keep it goin kev.


----------



## primetime3wise

i havn't added anything else, but have been using peat the past few weeks. i'll be shooting for next weekend to add more water and bring temp to 82-84. ph is already around 6 so i do not want to add anything else. will be removing the peat then, and adding tap water w/ ph of 7.6+/-

fyi, i did add water to bring the tank to 3/4 full...even cooler water and brought temp all way down to 70, temporarily. i wanted to see if it did anything, and it did not as the temp went back up to 74.


----------



## Winkyee

What space of time are you going to use when raising the temps?


----------



## primetime3wise

^i think i am going bring it up to 80-82 immediately, with the new water, then let it go even higher, 82-84 over the course of the next few hours. i plan on getting up early on the day to start the process. hopefully the temp and ph changes will provide a shock or stimulus, to their systems. if i see nothing to indicate spawning, a few days later really get the temp up there, i have heard of people going 86+F to try and promote breeding.

starting to feed them 4x this week, and even using some "Boyd Vita-chem" as an additive to food and tank, increased nutrition certainly can't hurt.


----------



## primetime3wise

sunday or monday SHOULD be the day!! it's supposed to rain on both and i have off from work!

again i am feeding them 3x this week. jim suggested, and i may, start with some beefheart on fri and sunday. might even do feeders on the day of refilling the tank.


----------



## bigshawn

although I know this is a process I have my fingers crossed for you.............


----------



## primetime3wise

thanks shawn and everyone else for the encouragement. honestly, i don't feel terribly optimistic about this, but we'll see. it would be amazing if we found a method that seems to work. we could then try and apply it to even more species.


----------



## bigshawn

primetime3wise said:


> thanks shawn and everyone else for the encouragement. honestly, i don't feel terribly optimistic about this, but we'll see. it would be amazing if we found a method that seems to work. we could then try and apply it to even more species.


That's what I'm hoping........


----------



## memento

That's what most of us are hoping for








Good luck though









So I understand you're discussing the entire process with Jim ? I'm sure he appreciates it, regards to him.
By the way, would you be so kind to report the barometric pressure during the storm ?


----------



## Trigga

what kind of feeders are you using? i know you know what your doing but you wouldnt want to introduce any foreign diseases at this stage of the experiment


----------



## primetime3wise

^^yes i can note the barometric pressure when i do it. tank is in my basement so will pop up windows for sure too to get some fresh air in there.

as far as feeders, i realize their is a risk, not sure about it, i normally think the risk is minimal, esp. one time thing, and i don;t buy too much into the fear of disease from it. you guys do realize their are some fish that will ONLY accept live, correct?? ask AK about his clown knife...for example he had tried to get it onto non-live for several months with no success and just had to go with feeders. i think of knife fish the most from this because i had one as well years ago and it would almost completely refuse anything other than live, though after a while it would cave in. i am sure there are other predatory fish like this. i just think you guys online worry a little too much about it.

def. am gonna go to the butcher tomorrow and get some slices of beef heart, they would probably go nuts over it.

more on the feeder thing. it might be wise though to spend more $$$ on something other than rosie reds or goldfish, something that has at least been established in its tank for a while, as i know how quickly feeders go through your average lfs...and to quarentine whatever i get


----------



## memento

So was today (or will tomorrow be) the day ?


----------



## primetime3wise

i did it just a little bit ago. i did about 50-60% water change while vacuuming the whole tank. tank temp is at 82 now, from 74. unfortunately, so far i did not get the reaction i was hoping for...they are lighter than usual. i attribute that to the huge temp bump and ph change, along with me being around the tank for so long. today was like the most i was around the tank since i started this project. we'll see what happens, i will check up on them in an hour or so to see if anything changed.

and i know CombiChrist you wanted me to note the barometric pressure. it is 29.49in right now and light rain.

and i'm not afraid to get the temp up to 86 or so if i don't see anything happening today. i have my heaters set for 84 right now.


----------



## primetime3wise

update: a lot of activity in the tank now w/ the higher temps. two are darker than the other 3, but whether that means anything i kind of doubt. we'll see, i will take a quick peak again in a few hours before their lights go out.


----------



## primetime3wise

update: nothing has really changed, they are just being REALLY active, temp is still steady @ 82, want to get it up to at least 84 tomorrow.


----------



## memento

Sounds exciting








Curious what happened with the lights out...


----------



## primetime3wise

still just a lot of activity in the tank, they are always moving around.

i added warm water and now i brought the tank temp up from 82 to 85.

only one is really dark. i think it *might be a male because of his size, slightly smaller than the rest, but, also the most aggressive. he might want to dance but no partner. we'll see, that's more just speculation at this point.


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

Im waiting......


----------



## primetime3wise

^^^checked before the lights went out...nothing really new to report







we shall see though...


----------



## memento

We're all still waiting patiently








How do the others look ? Less dark, or no longer dark at all ?
What are you feeding at the moment ?


----------



## Us And Them

CombiChrist said:


> That's what most of us are hoping for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I understand you're discussing the entire process with Jim ? I'm sure he appreciates it, regards to him.
> By the way, would you be so kind to report the *barometric pressure during the storm* ?


thats exactly what I was thinking , How that is going to effect their behaviour.

Is it possible that because the piranha are not situated in a place were they can naturally tell what time of day or what season it is , that this is the reason they won't reproduce? . Not simply because the time isn't right , But because they simply Can not tell the time is right.

I mean , sure we add current , like a River . we add lights to simulate night and day , and heat to simulate how hot their habitat is. we even so much as try and recreate the exact look , Water Chemistry and Diet. But what could we be missing ?

What about the Subtle changes that take place during the night ? Water temperature goes down a few degrees , cooling during the night. Predators come out , and the lighting changes. In a home aquarium , it's almost as if they don't see the need to pro create to survive , as we have made them the top level predators in our tanks. knor do we give off the subtle clues that this is an amazonian night.

Maybe Jim didn't have to do anything at all. What if it was a complete Fluke and a mistake that this actually happened ? I'm not discrediting Jim ,
But what im suggesting is that I think the Stars fell in place that night. and what ever forces which may act outside of the tank had more to do with it than anything else that has been done inside the tank.

Perhaps the overall temperature of Jim's house had something to do with it , a passing by storm , who knows.I think when it comes to breeding
Aquarists should start looking outside of the Box, Literally.

Maybe we are doing a terrible job at simulating day. We flick a light on and Off and assume this is the only change that happens during this period. It's very nieve ,but than again , thats not uncommon for people to think thats the only change that happens.

Anyways , thats just a few thoughts I had. Im thinking perhaps Breeding would be more successful in Outdoor ponds in the Southern USA , enabling them to live in nature Year round in an environment as close as it gets to the real deal.


----------



## memento

The are seasonal breeders, that's correct.
And about the rest of your story Jon87, that's exactly why it's that interesting and even details like barometric pressure can be significant. What we need to find out, is whát it is exactly that triggers them to spawning...
That will at least for a part some parameters outside the aquarium (like low pressure during a storm).

So far al we can do is simulate as close as possible, the seasonal changes and see what happens.
Comparing those experiments with each other, will definately learn us a lot about the breeding of species like this


----------



## primetime3wise

i will look again just before their lights go out at 9pm on the tank. i don't want to disturb them at all today. like i said, last night just a lot of movement inside the tank. also, not changing anything w/ the tank may be a good idea, as to keep things stable and they can adapt...i'm thinking how i added warm water the past two days stressed them a bit.

last i checked one was really dark, the rest just kind of...the tank has a dim light and darker gravel so they are kind of dark to begin with, but one was noticeable darker than the others last night when i checked.

jon, you make some good points and i have considered most of those things. i'm NOT simulating the wet/dry seasons like they normally are, but relying on an initial cooling period followed by warmer waters. my 1st try i did a standard wet/dry simulation for only a few weeks. if they don't go at it this time around, i may pick up a few more caribe and try it in my 125g, eventually, BUT relying on a much longer simulation of the wet/dry seasons...months instead of weeks.


----------



## Us And Them

This is a complete shot in the dark guys but here it goes....

El Nino . Occurs every 3 -7 years. I Wonder if Jims' breeding of Caribe had anything to do with this. 
For those who don't know what " El Nino " is , here is a quick wikipedia on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Ni%C3%B1o-Southern_Oscillation

like i said , something else had to have happened that day. the effects of El Nino are felt in Both North and southern America , Changing Surface pressures etc.

and that's why people are having such a hard time breeding Caribe and Other Piranha in North America , they are just to far out of their natural environment. We can't simulate nature completely , we can try but we will never get the real deal right.

The odds of having both mature males and females , are 50/50 . The odds of owning them during El Nino are even lower(it only occurs once every 3-7 Years). The Odds of being situated in just the right spot of North America while owning both mature male and Female while being effected by El nino has got to be one in a million....

IMO , El nino affected Jims State enough to make the Caribe Physically feel like the time is right. Just long enough for them to get one spawn off. other than that it just wouldn't make sense for Fish to pair off once , and then never again.

El nino Changed the pressure enough for them to pop one Spawn off and then Never again.. why ? because we live in different parts of the world
and only during El nino for that few months time was everything aligned.

1) Jims Mature Male and Female Caribe
2) Jims location
3) El Ninos Effect on his location
4)Lucky enough that El nino occurred

I think all Jim was missing was a lottery ticket that day ! lol


----------



## primetime3wise

checked the tank this morning before heading off to work and still nothing. they are all about the same as far as coloration, no signs of prespawning behavior.

i would be extremely suprised if anything happens at this point.

i may obtain a few more adults and try it one last time with this species in my 125g, down the road though...

what's really only left is to simulate the wet/dry seasons for an extended period of time, and, adjust some of the other variables more closely. i noted my first attempt i only did the dry season for a few weeks...now, i am thinking it may take 2-3 months.

from just anecdotal reports on this forum, i think p. nattereri "ternetzi" may have a better chance of spawning in captivity. if you search through this forum there are a few members claiming to have prespawning behavior and even someone claiming to have a pair.


----------



## memento

Anything changed yet, or nothing ?
An extended period to condition them might indeed be a good addition in the next try.

Some more specimen to raise the chance of having a couple might also be a good thougth


----------



## primetime3wise

nothing









may try again after i move...and may try terns and piraya, as well if i can find some more of each, i did pick up 2 large piraya, about 9" the other day.


----------



## bigshawn

Oh, really,


----------



## primetime3wise

i couldn't pass up two 9" +/- for $150 each. got them off a MFK member, and i saw you posted in his thread several months ago.

one might have slight gill curl, but that is easily treatable. and i'm not even sure it is because it's so slight.


----------



## rhom15

i have 6 cariba biggest about 7"-8" inchs i been using that black water liquid every week when i do water change about 25% .for about 3 weeks just the other day got home thay were all really dark but still had little red in them but darker then i have ever seen them i sat in the corner of my fish room and two of them were gaurding one corner of the tank not blowing any gravel around but one was chasing the others away all but one he would let stay in that corner







but the next day thay went back to there normal color







and nothing has changed water temp is about 82 so i know the pain


----------



## bigshawn

primetime3wise said:


> i couldn't pass up two 9" +/- for $150 each. got them off a MFK member, and i saw you posted in his thread several months ago.
> 
> one might have slight gill curl, but that is easily treatable. and i'm not even sure it is because it's so slight.


ok, I remember the post, good deal........when you get tired of them


----------



## Trigga

shame nothing happened man.. gl with trying the terns or piraya


----------



## memento

Alright, if you give it another try let us know


----------



## primetime3wise

^alright, will do. i will probably try again, perhaps another species...terns or piraya, down the road though.


----------



## bigshawn

you haven't gave up prime???


----------



## primetime3wise

^^no. i will most likely try caribe again, or terns, depending on what i can find as far as adults. not worried about it now, it's at least a few months down the road if not more.


----------



## bigshawn

ok, and thanks


----------



## Fishnut2

Prime,
If you do decide to part with them...please let me know. I'd much rather see you spawn them though. Your threads are so informative, I feel like you're in my fishroom, sharing a few beers, when I read them. Awesome thread my friend!

Rich


----------



## primetime3wise

^thanks for the kind words. i don't plan to part with any of my pygos any time soon. as i hinted, i actually would like a few more adults before i try caribe again...and, if i did i could try it in my 125g. or terns or, maybe, even piraya...not sure if it would even be worthwhile to try piraya...what do you guys think? terns are probably, at least, possible as some in this forum have posted about prespawning behavior with them. plus, as you guys are aware, they are just a variation of pygo nattereri. i do have 2 (beautiful) adult piraya already, and it seems like they are easier to get these days. i've even thought about building a large indoor pond to try and get some of these species going.

an indoor pond would be nice for the privacy factor and not being as easily disturbed, and, a large one for space.


----------



## primetime3wise

my 5 adult caribe are in a 125g with 2 adult piraya. i have been doing water changes every 3 days. i have been noticing 2, sometimes 3, of the caribe will darken up for a bit after the water changes. i wonder if it has to do with oxygen levels. robert, whom i sold my breeding macs to, eventually got them to spawn after several months after doing a lot of water changes, so this may be a factor looking into.


----------



## bigshawn

maybe, and I'm with you on the trying to bred Piraya's thats one of the reasons I brought those off of you, but terns and caride are more then likely to bred, keep trying prime I'm following you............and will try some of this in the future.........


----------



## nameless

any news with a new try?


----------



## primetime3wise

funny you should ask. i am just recently considering trying this to see if i get any reaction, esp. just any real darkening of the fish or prebreeding behavior: the 5 caribe are now in a 125g w/ 2 large piraya. anyway, i may make a breeding area on each end of the tank, roughly 1'x1' possibly larger because these are fairly large fish. something where all sides of the area have some fake plants and possible fake rock all around the circumference. then even tossing some fake floating plants at the top of the areas as well. right now, in my bare 125g, two of the large caribe have claimed each end as their own, and i hope they reclaim the area after i rearrange the tank. we'll see if that happens. my piraya are really territorial so i could see if one took over the breeding areas. if so, i may just plant/decor the whole tank.

leave that for a few weeks, no changes. next would be to try that product "Pura Amazon", which is kind of like BW extract, but from what i see it mimics the conditions of the amazon even more. not sure if i would add it right away or not till my next step...

final step would just be what one does to try and stimulate red bellies or gold piranhas. large water change w/ cooler water, dropping it down a few degrees then letting the tank go back up in temp to around 84-86. monitor the fish and continue to try this method a few times. guy i sold my old macs to got them to breed w/ nothing more than large water changes and increased temp...possibly could work, if not then finally really getting serious about trying to simulate the wet/dry seasons in a way that is much more like the way it is normally done, compared to my previous 2 attempts. simulating the dry season for a good 2-4 months, followed by the rainy season. all along the way really trying to mimic natural conditions...adjusting ph, temp and natural water chemistry. in this thread i believe i linked an article that really goes into depth about doing all this. it was the most detailed article i have yet to see on changing variables over time.

i wouldn't mind getting my hands on some terns, as well, to possibly try this in the future...need to sell my large rhom first.


----------



## memento

Gonna follow this topic again prime ! Good luck


----------



## memen

I like your perseverance Primetime3wise... I will follow this.


----------



## primetime3wise

now, another attempt just isn't going to happen any time soon. i am too busy with work to try this again, and i am even thinking of parting with them and cut down to just my pirayas so i can try them down the line. plus, overstocking is a pain in the ... for upkeep.


----------



## BRUNER247

Bummer! It was just getting interesting.


----------



## memento

primetime3wise said:


> now, another attempt just isn't going to happen any time soon. i am too busy with work to try this again, and i am even thinking of parting with them and cut down to just my pirayas so i can try them down the line. plus, overstocking is a pain in the ... for upkeep.


Understandable.. good luck though with whatever decision you make and it there ever comes another part in this thread I'll be happy to read it


----------



## bigshawn

CombiChrist said:


> now, another attempt just isn't going to happen any time soon. i am too busy with work to try this again, and i am even thinking of parting with them and cut down to just my pirayas so i can try them down the line. plus, overstocking is a pain in the ... for upkeep.


Understandable.. good luck though with whatever decision you make and it there ever comes another part in this thread I'll be happy to read it








[/quote]

X2.............


----------

