# Frank, I know you hate this kind of post



## SharkAquarium (May 16, 2003)

There are more pics in my forum. I did not want to litter here.


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

I'd say *S.Marginatus* but i cannot see the 'V' on the tail from that pic.

I saw also the other pics on your other post and the other fish looks like *S.Altuvei *to me.

what is your opinion George?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

We can begin on where it was collected. I looked at the other images in your forum, they are not very clear enough, though I did attempt to lighten them up a bit to look at the belly scutes. Right now, no opinion other than Serrasalmus sp.


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

hastatus said:


> We can begin on where it was collected. I looked at the other images in your forum, they are not very clear enough, though I did attempt to lighten them up a bit to look at the belly scutes. Right now, no opinion other than Serrasalmus sp.


 Frank did you see that george told that they are captivebred?

Here is the quote from george's reply....

*



The first 2 pictures were taken of fish in a tank at The Mandalay Resort and Casino in Las Vegas, a couple of years ago. As most of you would assume, piranha are illegal in Las Vegas, except for disaplay. When the casino contacted my to stock their display, they were supplied with both large rhoms, gold spilo's, and red bellies. To make a long story short, the RHOMS spawned, and last week 4 pieces were returned to me. (This is an example of how tightly the fish were controlled.)

Not only is it remarkable that the rhoms spawned, but I find it extremely interesting how large they grew in 2 years!!!

Click to expand...

*


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Nope, didn't pay any attention to that. The photos (as I see them) don't confirm for me it is S. rhombeus.


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

hastatus said:


> The photos (as I see them) don't confirm for me it is S. rhombeus.


 Thats what i am thinking......do you think Compressus group?

I believe S.Altuvei and S.Marginatus

What do you think of?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I went back and looked at those photos again, I remember those photos from a Year? or so ago? George needs to refresh my memory on that. Its not unheard of for S. rhombeus to spawn in captivity, though rare. Perhaps George can fill us in on what size aquarios they were in and the type of "control" they used, if he knows.







As I said, I have no opinion on those fishes ID yet, unless better comes up. I missed the 2 years ago remark from George.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Found this in a web search of the resort. They seem to have only red-bellies now. However in the info section found this, though a bit glorified.










> The next stop at the Shark Reef is the piranha exhibit. Despite their deceptively serene appearance, piranhas can be very aggressive. The largest of the four species at the exhibit, the Black Piranha, can grow larger than the size of a man's hand and is capable of devouring a 100-pound animal in under a minute. The piranhas at the Shark Reef are fed a combination of frozen fish, poultry and beef heart three times a day, as they begin to eat one another when they are hungry.


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## SharkAquarium (May 16, 2003)

Where did you get the idea there were only red bellies? Here is a quote "The largest of the four species at the exhibit, the black piranha".... In the email I just posted in my Buy/Sell Forum, the curator states they spawned in a tank with P. cariba, S. spilopleura, and P. nattereri.

He also included specific data about the size of the tank, etc.

I did not realize the pics were so dark. I will try and get better.

g


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I read the main part of the article and they photos were red-bellies along with the description. However, if you follow what I said next AND THE QUOTE, they mention black piranas. No photo of that species there, so a bit confusing taking into account what you wrote and what THEY are advertising via a photo of the red-belly.......its all good.








It's not uncommon to have the species (including S. rhombeus, though a bit more rare) to spawn in large aquarios like that. Show's they have a good control of conditons, which some hobbyists don't have.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

PS: I'm not a frequent visitor at the BUY and SELL so missed anything you might have posted there. I go there once in a blue moon or when I'm directed there.


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## SharkAquarium (May 16, 2003)

Some better pics...

Regarding scutes, these have very few, very small.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Do I think it looks like S. rhombeus? Could be, but need a straight flank shot w/o angle; head to tail. Thanks for the belly shots, helps eliminate a portion of the compressus group, certainly S. marginatus which was not in my thoughts.


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

What may have been sold to them four years ago could have been thought of as "Rhoms" then but perhaps we know better now.

Also, what about hybridization with the spilos? I bet it has happened before.

That face looks like a "Compressus group" species to me though.

Just my 2-cents.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> B. Scott Posted on Aug 25 2004, 04:54 PM
> What may have been sold to them four years ago could have been thought of as "Rhoms" then but perhaps we know better now.
> 
> Also, what about hybridization with the spilos? I bet it has happened before.
> ...


Hybridization? Its certainly possible and not unheard of, but I'd hold off on any opinions on that w/o more knowledge of this fish. What the fish actually reminds me of is the old Quinn (Piranhas FACT AND FICTION) S. gibbus (aka S. spilopleura), but the tail doesn't look right for it. The hyaline edging which is evident is likely from repeated bites and hasn't colored in yet.


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

Yeah, well then the only thing to do is look at the adults that came from George initially then. That's where this post should have started with IMHO.

Any pics of the adults?


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Do I think it looks like S. rhombeus? Could be, but need a straight flank shot w/o angle; head to tail. Thanks for the belly shots, helps eliminate a portion of the compressus group, certainly S. marginatus which was not in my thoughts.


 Sory Frank but with my poor english i didn't understand this.So do you believe that the fish are S.Rhombeus or S.Marginatus?
My opinion in the first pics was S.Marginatus thats why i am asking?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Out of curiosity, went back and looked at the Quinn book. Its actually captioned (incorrectly) as S. calmoni. Certainly has the appearance of this fish on page 102 for those that have this book.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> husky_jim Posted on Aug 25 2004, 05:30 PM
> QUOTE (hastatus @ Aug 25 2004, 05:24 PM)
> Do I think it looks like S. rhombeus? Could be, but need a straight flank shot w/o angle; head to tail. Thanks for the belly shots, helps eliminate a portion of the compressus group, certainly S. marginatus which was not in my thoughts.
> 
> ...


Me Bad, my brain runs on multi-languages







I eliminated S. marginatus as the species. And still unsure of the S. rhombeus w/o a better flank photo.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Out of curiosity, went back and looked at the Quinn book. Its actually captioned (incorrectly) as S. calmoni. Certainly has the appearance of this fish on page 102 for those that have this book.


 Why do you bother? Everything captioned in that book is wrong. Don't continue to waste your time with old literature. As it becomes available, I will send you new stuff.

Regarding the adults, any pics yet?

We can all sit here and throw rocks at names but if they weren't rhombs then, they certainly ain't rhoms now, and no, they do not look anything like marginatus IMHO.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> B. Scott Posted on Aug 25 2004, 05:29 PM
> Yeah, well then the only thing to do is look at the adults that came from George initially then. That's where this post should have started with IMHO.
> 
> Any pics of the adults?


That may very well help, however it was a mixed tank according to George and really ALL the adults would be useful to look at if available.


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

this is irrelevant but i really enjoy the conversation between Frank and B.!!!!It remindes to me some posts from long ago!.
Glad to have you here guys!!!!!


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

husky_jim said:


> this is irrelevant but i really enjoy the conversation between Frank and B.!!!!It remindes to me some posts from long ago!.
> Glad to have you here guys!!!!!












Me too..... thanks!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> B. Scott Posted on Aug 25 2004, 05:34 PM
> 
> *Why do you bother? *Everything captioned in that book is wrong. Don't continue to waste your time with old literature. As it becomes available, I will send you new stuff.
> 
> ...


Because the photos are EXCELLENT in those books even if the material is generally poor. Just doing a photo comparison and using the names captioned should anyone ask WHY THAT NAME. We all know the book is outdated.









And I do look forward to seeing your expertise make major improvements on this topic.


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

We both know that I have no expertise.

On another note, John Quinn was here a little while back and we had quite a discussion about that book. Very funny. I'll have to call and tell you about it. It's too long to post here. We had lunch and he looks forward to the revision.

Anyway, I'll wait for pics of the adults before I add another nickle to this.

Cheers,

PS__your copies of September's issue went out today via FED-EX overnight priority. Please let me know what you think of your name in there. C-ya!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

John is a good soul and I miss our conversations. If and when you talk to him again, send him my best!

PS: I just hope you spelled my name right.








....thanks Brian.


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

hastatus said:


> PS: I just hope you spelled my name right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I researched it on OPEFE!!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> B. Scott Posted on Aug 26 2004, 12:21 AM
> QUOTE (hastatus @ Aug 25 2004, 07:17 PM)
> PS: I just hope you spelled my name right. ....thanks Brian.
> 
> I researched it on OPEFE!!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Brian:

The books came in at 1015 a.m. by the express guy this morning. I read the article on S. geryi, and have to admit, its PRETTY GOOD.







Thanks for the mention too. It was very kind of you. I'm also very grateful and thankful that you mentioned the real people in science (sorry Paulo Petry was omitted), but in either case, its good they are getting credit for all they do for science.

I hope you continue to write on pirana species as the information being reported today is 50% better than ever from TFH. I hope they allow to continue making improvements in that area. It is sorely needed from my perspective.

Your a good man Brian and everyone reading this thread should thank you for being a part of TFH and of course PFURY>


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

Frank,

First off, your welcome for the magazines,, i am glad you got to see them.

Next, THANK YOU for all the kind words. I am happy to hear that you like the work that is going on. While we don't get it all righ, we are trying and IMHO we are getting it mostly right. As you know Piranha Science is very dynamic and ever changing so it remains quite a challenge to report things to the community. Thankfully we have places such as OPEFE that help us along.

Perhaps we can do 100% better yet in the future.

Respectfully,

Brian


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## cretinHOP (Jun 23, 2004)

piranha sicence is a bloody mess just like the genetics of the animal.


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

cretinHOP said:


> piranha sicence is a bloody mess just like the genetics of the animal.


 What makes you say this?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I was wondering the same thing myself. Vast improvement over the last 10 or so years.


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