# Ternetzi Gillplate size difference



## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

Frank,

Heres a couple pics of smaller ternetzi (6-8") gill plate shots compared to the newly purchased ternetzi (10-11"). Just noticed gill plate sizes were not porportionate to overall body when it comes to smaller ternetzi vs larger ones. I was wondering if theres any correlation or explanation.

11 inch tern


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

another 11" tern


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

8" tern


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

Another shot of 8" tern


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

7" tern


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

6" tern


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

7" tern


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

11" tern


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Hi Hollywood:

I just glanced at the photos and may make some comments, probably tomorrow. There are some things that I noticed and I want to do a bit of photo shop so that you can see what I'm refering to.

As we discussed via the photo, your fishes are a bit too well fed. We'll discuss more on that later when I've had time to review the photos.


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

Frank,

Dont you ever get any rest? I wasnt expecting such a quick responce. Cool ill wait for your observations tomorrow.







No rush. Thanks!

Measurements are eyeball measurements so correct me if im wrong.

Arnold


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

Could it be a lack of developmental vitamins the smaller ones are robbed of when grown up in a home aquarium? Or Just the same differance between a 12 inch tern to a 10 inch tern? Quite a differance in girth and height.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> HOLLYWOOD Posted on Jun 7 2004, 03:39 AM
> Frank,
> 
> Dont you ever get any rest? *No* :laugh: I wasnt expecting such a quick responce. Cool ill wait for your observations tomorrow. No rush. Thanks!
> ...


I'm not interested so much in the sizes as what I'm seeing in the photos. I'll have them put together sometime tomorrow, probably late afternoon or evening. My comments will be made directly on the photos as I review and discuss them with you.


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## Atlanta Braves Baby! (Mar 12, 2003)

Interesting they are too well feed? I will be looking forward to your observations Frank.


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

The larger terns are have only been in captive for a few months. They have not been fed as frequent as the smaller ones.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> HOLLYWOOD Posted on Jun 7 2004, 03:02 PM
> The larger terns are have only been in captive for a few months. They have not been fed as frequent as the smaller ones.


Ok, let me say this, this is a COMMON PROBLEM with captive fishes. Its not something you are doing wrong per se, its the way hobbyists in general feed their fishes and the diet they get fed regularly.

The entire scope of this exercise is NOT TO CRITICISE the hobbyist. But can be a learning tool for everyone to learn what to look for on their fishes.

Arnold has some beautiful fishes, I've seen them and he has graciously in the past donated fishes for research. So please, NO ONE get defensive over my remarks but try and learn from what I'm showing you via these photos. When I state "overfeeding" it simply means the fishes are getting more food than they would normally eat in the wild. In the wild fishes eat approx 1-2 fishes a day. These are often "shared" among the group, often seen in the home tank. The tanks of the average aquarist is often to small for the fish to exercise, so when you add this up they get fat and dumpy looking. This inactivity can also cause the fish to age sooner and open it for parasite/disease problems.

Arnold and I have discussed these things on the phone and he is indeed making changes in how his fishes are fed. I'm always concerned when I critique someone's fishes particular in public like PFURY that a negative comes through. Please no one take it that way!. So please do not get defensive and everyone else please show some respect for what is being discussed.









Here is the link to the fishes and my remarks.


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

These guys are from the same lot as hollywoods. They have only been in captivity for 3 mos tops. As you can see these guys are eating like pigs. Hollywood is getting different results as i am with eating behavior, But these fish are gluttons. They were thin when i got them as all wild fish are, But the belly on the ones i am showing will revert to a flat line rather than a rounded like the captive one will retain. As for the gill plates i think it could be from a lack of calcium from the small bones the piranha eat from predated fish which is why i try to feed a healthy dose of shrimp with the shell on and barely no beef in their diet. I do feed catfish the majority of the time. The first guy has a existing injury to the back from what i dunno, But he was injured badly. He has recovered to almost perfect condition besides the partial top fin.


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

here's another one of the fresher caught p's


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

Also the red chinbump is from where the hook was in it's mouth.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Raptor Posted on Jun 7 2004, 03:55 PM
> here's another one of the fresher caught p's


Diet and tank size is EVERYTHING.

Its possible I may have been looking to closely at the belly region. Accordingly, you photos appear to satisfy my concerns. Because these fishes are gluttons, doesn't mean you should be stuffing them. I know the concerns about them killing each other by not being fed enough is a great concern. Age old advice was not let them ever get hungry because of cannibalism. However, cannibalism will happen irrespective of how well they are fed. So my advice is to tone down the amounts. I feed my fishes 1 time a week, a large portion (about 6 inches x 4 inches) of fish (cod, catfish, tilapia for example). Vitamins are important too, but majority of prepared fish foods are full of this. Adding it to the water has some effect, but not as much as feeding food rich in thiamin and calcium.


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

I understand where you are coming from frank, And they are in a spacious tank. Well they might not think so. I am just fattining their reserve up (Head and back region) Because they were pretty thin when i got them. I don't plan on keeping them on this much of a food fest. I like to feed them 3 smaller meals a week, Or maybe 2 slightly larger ones to keep water conditions good. 
But as i told hollywood if i throw my normal amount of food in there only one will eat. The others will lunge after some and take bites inadvertantly out of the eating tern causing damage to him. I have never seen such a hunger in p's this big. They will eat every day if they could. I went back to feeding 3 times a week from my experiment with rainy simulation and feeding heavy. And the way these guys hit food is crazy even when i fed everyday till full. I had fed them the other day and went to throw another piece of catfish in there i missed and they swam franticly to the top of the tank to feed. I shut the glass lid before they got near because they would have attacked the food as soon as it hit the water with my hand being too close to them to just drop it in. They just ate a big meal, And acted like they haven't ate yet. 
I have always thought from my other large p's that their hunger slows down when they are almost full grown because growth has prettymuch done with, But someone forgot to tell these guys that.


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

One last thing, When i was feeding heavy they ate 3 lbs of catfish and 50 shrimp a week.







I will definately try to tone the amount down though.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

With my common red bellies (and the caribas), they are kept lean. Hollywood has seen them and while I have lost a couple fishes (usually during mass feeding) that is normally what happens in the wild. Yes, this does seem expensive, but the fishes in my tank for all intents and purposes appear healthy. If I can get some good quality shots of the large ones, you will see the absence of any cranial distoration. The dorsum is full but not obtrusive. So you have to give a little to get a lot in return. BTW when food is introduced its like watching a NG special







. Very impressive food fest.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

One other thing I should add here......my favorite......DO NOT FEED GOLD FISH or any other member of the cyprinid family. These fish have a tendancy to cause bone and mass loss in predator fishes. If you feed your fishes gold fish exclusively, somewhere down the line your fish will encounter a host of problems as they mature.


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

The larger terns (photo 1,2,4) were just captive for only a few months. The condition that they were in upon shipment was much worse than what they look like now. I can only imagine what condtions they were kept prior to being sold (imported) thus are prone to various diseases, parasites and infections.

I must admit that I do sometimes overfeed due to the amount of P kept in that tank. I have seen what underfeeding can do and belive me I would rather overfeed than to see various fin nips/ flank chuncks ,aggressive behaviour(to include fatal attacks) caused by lack of food.

No offense taken on your remarks at all.

How about the gill plate size differences? Raptor suggested vitamin deficiency. Sounds reasonable to me.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

The gill plate size appears normal (to me), I think its just the bulk of the fish that is causing you to see what appears (to you) as different. I see nothing to indicate any real problems other than what I described.

I want to comment here about your remarks about fin nips etc. The fishes in my tank (if you can recall) do not suffer from fin bites, indeed the only time they have had this happen to them was when I introduced a Serrasalmus sp. Their diet, something they have been accustomed to since juvenile, makes them used to not being fed so much, yet they have grown with minimal to no damage. Of the original stock of 17 fishes, only 2 have been lost in 6 months, these were the smaller fish. I agree on not wanting to lose fish......nobody wants that to happen. I guess I'm so accustomed to having loss, that it becomes part of the game of keeping such magnificient critters like the pirana. My suggestion to those that wish to keep their fishes pristine is to keep them separate, but that would require space and multi-tanks. Not a good option for most people.
And btw, no offense is ever taken when someone disagrees with me. You have that option and all I can do is give advice to what I think is best. Doesn't mean that its carved in stone or would apply to every condition. Its just another option to consider.


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

Excellent.

I will tone down on feeding a also vary diet. I too primarily feed with catfish fillets.Thanks again Frank also Alex (Raptor).


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

I just wanted to state that i had no intentions to dissagree just throw some things up for discussion. Just wanted to let you know i think you have established yourself as the godfather of pianha.








Thanks frank.


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

Raptor said:


> Just wanted to let you know i think you have established yourself as the godfather of pianha.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I have my own reservations at times but for the majority of the times you are indeed percise.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

God father eh? Compadre in Spanish.









I tried to get my fishes to stay still, to no avail. This is the best photo for now. Will retake later for clarity. But this should give you an idea what I mean about the dorsum being full but not to excess. It should appear tapered to its head.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Here's a wild caught photo. Look carefully at the head and the back.

Photo by Carvalho, L.N


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

This is how you can tell over feeding:

www.delfinariorimini.it/ delfimages/piranha.jpg

Look at head and dorsum profile. Compare to the fishes above.


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## Genin (Feb 4, 2003)

Frank I have to feed my fish a little more regularly than I would like because some of them are still juvies, but my larger guy seems to regulate himself well. He is very thick and loves the powerhead, can you do me a favor and tell me if he has a weight problem by the picture? I am just concerned that the regularity of feedings may chubby him up so to say.









Is he fat?

Joe


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

I hope this does not start a trend of "Does mine look healthy...pics"..... oh boy.


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## Genin (Feb 4, 2003)

HOLLYWOOD said:


> I hope this does not start a trend of "Does mine look healthy...pics"..... oh boy.


 sorry HOLLYWOOD, I didn't intend on doing that. I posted because I have a pretty odd predicament that I have thought about a lot. I got 3 reds that were only about 2" when Shogei was already around 8", so I had to feed very often and I was concerned as to whether it had made my largest red obese. He regulates rather well, and is very active, the others are getting to a size where I can now start slowing down the feedings and was just curious if I had caused my largest to get fat over the months. no hijacking intended. PM me if you wish to discuss further.

Joe


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

My apologies Genin. Your question was sincere.

I just did not want this thread to start a trend of "does my P look healthy". Rather to learn from what was discussed " General Piranha Feeding Husbandry 101".


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> HOLLYWOOD Posted on Jun 8 2004, 12:51 AM
> My apologies Genin. Your question was sincere.
> 
> *I just did not want this thread to start a trend of "does my P look healthy".* Rather to learn from what was discussed " General Piranha Feeding Husbandry 101".


We share many of the same thoughts.
















Genin: You are the best judge on health, look at your fish and compare to what is being learned here. From your photo, I see no outward problems and a photo alone doesn't say much. Look at your fish headon and the upper portion should be tapered behind the head not sticking out like a fat sausage (as in those fat p's used for demonstration).


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## siclids (Mar 16, 2003)

This thread rocks







I definately learned a few things and I appreciate you folks taking the time to discuss matters like this.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Here's another photo of a well formed head and dorsum:
www.piranhas-fr.com/ piranhas.htm
Note how the dorsum doesn't look distorted behind the head.


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## Atlanta Braves Baby! (Mar 12, 2003)

Frank, can cranial distortion be reversed if you begin to properly feed?

BTW this thread is very informitive!


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Here's another photo of a well formed head and dorsum:
> www.piranhas-fr.com/ piranhas.htm
> Note how the dorsum doesn't look distorted behind the head.


 Thats what i think looks skinny. Ahhh every time i get a wild fish like that i think i have to fatten them up. By all means they don't look like the fat ones you posted, But they don't look like that with the top of the head looking pointy. It looks more full and rounded but not extremely.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Wow, this is one interesting thread!

I've been wondering the same about my fish: they pretty much look like Joe's Shogei (full but not fat).
The wierd thing is that I used to feed them daily until about 6 months ago - nowadays they're fed 2-3 times per day, and smaller portions: it certainly makes feeding times much more exiting - but they look as full as before. So feeding significantly less hasn't caused noticable differences in appearance (other than natural growth, obviously).

Anyways, feeding my boys less was probably the best decision I ever made concerning them, because, as said, feeding times never were the same again (they attack every type of food with equal ferocity), they are much more active and also interactive (every time they see me they seem to know it might mean food, and that it may be quite some time before they're fed again: but maybe I see too much in their behaviour as well...







)

Once again, awesome topic, very informative


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## Genin (Feb 4, 2003)

thanks for the response Frank.

I appreciate the PM's HOLLYWOOD.

Very imformative thread so far.

Joe


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Atlanta Braves Baby! Posted on Jun 8 2004, 08:16 AM
> Frank, can cranial distortion be reversed if you begin to properly feed?


*YES* .......Many of today's Public Aquarios are revising their feeding programs. The New Hampshire Aquarium, for example, used to have nice fat piranas. And mortality rates were high from the obesity and often diseases problem. They now duplicate the seasons including allowing the fishes to go 1 month w/o feeding so that the fishes are forced to use that fat storage. This helps gets rid of the toxins built up in the liver and to use my common phrase; makes them lean and mean.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Good Grief....not a wake yet, New England Aquarium, NOT New Hampshire. Good thing Scott Doud doesn't visit this forum.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

The next question was asked of me via PM: Do juveniles need to be cut back too on feedings. The answer is NO, they require the extra nutrition to grow, also it will keep them from devouring each other. As they begin to reach maturity (adult size) the feedings should be less frequent, than regular daily feedings. They have to be weaned into this.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

hastatus said:


> The next question was asked of me via PM: Do juveniles need to be cut back too on feedings. The answer is NO, they require the extra nutrition to grow, also it will keep them from devouring each other. As they begin to reach maturity (adult size) the feedings should be less frequent, than regular daily feedings. They have to be weaned into this.


 Frank, at what size or what age would you say one should start cutting back on the amount of feedings?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I'm going to attempt to take some photos (head on) of the p's here. I cut back on food for them once they hit approx. over 6 inches.

This is the best I can take for now of a 9 in. p. They don't want to hold still and they keep going into the algal area of the tank.

Going to try and take the bigger P's next.


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

Is there a season where p's will fatten up (Like spring)to get thru the lean mos? (If there is any)


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Raptor said:


> Is there a season where p's will fatten up (Like spring)to get thru the lean mos? (If there is any)


I would think so - I can imagine that during the dry season, when movement and therefore fouraging is limited by dried up passways, a good fat storage is the only way to survive. That would mean they would stuff themselves as long as the food is plentiful (wet season, high water levels, coinciding with the reproduction of other animals that share piranha habitat?)
This is just reasoning from my part, not facts, however...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

They don't "fatten up" per se. The reason why they look so thin is 1) dry season when natural food is gone and they live on their fat reserves (dorsum) and 2) When unknowing hobbyists overfeed them. In nature, they are not FAT in that area, much less in how they look. The photos I have taken is the closest you will get to how they appear in the wild other than wild shots.

Here's the best I can do with photos. Hope this helps. As juveniles these p's were fed heavily, then as they matured, I cut off their heavy feeding to minimal, once per week sometimes 2x's. You have to know what you are doing, doing this all of a sudden in not way to go. Its a gradually weening of several weeks.

The cariba in the photo was a fat sausage when I got him. Now he is more wild looking.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

One more question, Frank: I feed my reds one meaty meal per week (shrimp or fish fillet - pangasius, tilapia, or similar), and one or two times weekly an amount of pellets (Hikari Gold floating pellets or Algae pellets).

Do the things you said about the amounts of food and feedings apply equally to all types of foods? I mean, if I were to feed _X_ grammes of shrimp per week, or the exact same weight in pellets, would it make a difference? Would one food type cause obesity faster than another?

If I had to choose, should I lean more towards pellets or towards meaty foods, and use the other as a treat, or doesn't it really matter?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Those foods and quantity appear suitable. I'm not a big advocate of Beefheart, even though its one of the most recommended foods for fishes. Namely, because most hobbyists don't feed it properly and too much. Beefheart should NOT be fed in chunks, rather it should be shaved thin and any fat present removed. While beefheart as a food is lean, still, for some reason P's don't do well with it overall. The same goes with goldfish, these should NEVER be a staple food for reasons of B-1 inhibiters and calcium deficiency these critters promote.

Feeding just "pellets" is not suitable either that's why its better to vary the diet as you are doing-------Hey this is PSCI not Feeding Forum!







But to get back to your question. You need to watch the p's carefully (body structure) to insure they are not being overindulged. They can eat themselves to death and to much food will make them grow fast, but will also mess up their natural metabolism and the liver is always the first to go.

The young caribas below are feed frozen fish (thawed) cod, catfish fillet and shrimp. They are also fed a steady diet of nightcrawlers. I let them go no more than 2 days w/o feeding then feed again just enough for the 4 to eat it up in a few minutes. I'm building them (conditioning) to eat less now that they are almost 5" TL. As weeks go by, they will get less and less and will be made to use the fat storage. Pretty colors eh? Amazing what natural sun does too.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Thanks for your reply, Frank









I only fed heart once (horse, not beef heart - for all horsie lovers, please don't hate







), but my reds didn't even like it, so I had to throw away 3 pounds of bloody organ meat (I wonder what the garbage folks thought







)

I think my reds are perfectly healthy, although I used to feed them almost daily until about 6 months ago. They pretty much look like your fish (as far as my layman eye can see), and still have neat colors (especially for a bunch of captivebreds).









No flash used...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Your fish mostly certainly do.









Here I lightened your photo for better view:


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

great read! thanks dudes!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Xenon Posted on Jun 8 2004, 11:29 PM
> great read! thanks dudes!


Your welcome Dudette.


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## Atlanta Braves Baby! (Mar 12, 2003)

Great info indeed!


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

Frank have you ever injected prepaired meats with zooplankton? I have some marine zooplankton i feed my corals and wondered if that was a viable additive. It has tons of carotene in it. The stuff i showed you for tetra's a while back should be here soon. I haven't forgot to send ya some. I hope it will bring some crazy color out of my fish.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Raptor Posted on Jun 9 2004, 12:55 PM
> Frank have you ever injected prepaired meats with zooplankton? I have some marine zooplankton i feed my corals and wondered if that was a viable additive. It has tons of carotene in it.


Personally, I have never tried it. If I did, I would first experiment on my less valuable fish, perhaps P. nattereri. I have heard of it being done with vitamins, but not zooplankton. I would certainly do it as a supplement and not as a daily feeding.


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

Plankton has the highest protien % ive ever seen in dry goods. I feed it to my exos and they go nuts!


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

what kind of plankton hollywood?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I have bought it in the past (expensive meal), but agree with you. The plankton is freeze dried in cans or packages.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Here is a link to frozen plankton. To me Freeze dried is better.


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

Its spendy and not recommended as a staple more of just to compliment regular diet. Heres a sample from BigAls Big Als freeze dried plankton


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Time to move this into its proper forum now. Let the young learn from it.

Thank you all for participating and those in the future.


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