# Manuelli Problems



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

I just got this Manuelli from Pedro over at aquascape a few days ago and he had a serious case of ammonia burn and his tail fin is completely missing. Here are the pictures but they are not in the best quality.


----------



## vanz (Sep 11, 2003)

damn dude..that sux...does he apear to be healthy despite not being able to swim right?


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

more


----------



## mattmatt123 (Nov 13, 2003)

i would talk to Pedro and ask him why he would send you such a damged fish. It doesnt seem right to be sending fish in bad health. im not trying to be rude or anything abut it just doesnt seem right to me.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

When i got him he had small white patches all over his body... i knew it was ammonia burn as soon as i saw it.

I acclimated him for about an hour and i did a 25% water change before adding him in....there was no salt in the tank so i added 1 tablespoon for ever 10 gallons....

I also added some Melafix and took the carbon out last night and i come home a few minutes ago to find some furry white stuff growing from his wounds.... to be honest i don't know what to do but despite his injuries he seems to be swimming normal but has been breathing heavily.

i turned up the heat to 84 degree's and i checked the water today and here are my results.

pH: 6.8
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: .5

I am relucatant to use stress zyme because im not a big fan of meds but this guy was in rough shape when i got him, right now the lights are off and i covered up his tank..... what do you guys think i should do?

Here are more pictures.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

one more.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

Here is the bad one:


----------



## badforthesport (Jan 8, 2004)

i think Pedro should be helping out on this on bro.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

What is this fur/fuzzy stuff growing out of him? is this normal.....?

he hasn't eaten since i got him as well.


----------



## badforthesport (Jan 8, 2004)

hope you get $ off or something let me know what happens. has anyone else had problems with this site?


----------



## kouma (Sep 1, 2003)

damn tail is completely gone.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

he has a tail....enough for him to swim but just the black band where the tail starts.... no progress since i got him on tuesday and i honestly think he got worse with this cotton like furry stuff on him.....

i don't know what to do fellas, i think i did all i could....


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

DonH....any advice?

please help


----------



## jdk79 (Feb 22, 2003)

This is the reason I would never order from Pedro....bad service, bad advice and damaged fish. This fish should of never been sent. Simple as that. Ammonia burn shouldn't take place with this small of a fish unless it was sitting for more than 2 days or something like that. Stick with Ash or George and you don't have to worry about this kind of stuff happening.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

i will keep that into consideration next time or if there is a next time i decide to purchase a fish online.

any other advice on what i should do?


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

jdk79 said:


> This is the reason I would never order from Pedro....bad service, bad advice and damaged fish. This fish should of never been sent. Simple as that. Ammonia burn shouldn't take place with this small of a fish unless it was sitting for more than 2 days or something like that. Stick with Ash or George and you don't have to worry about this kind of stuff happening.


 Now that is just an ignorant statement. 
Many problems happen in shipping to every seller. It is a matter of what the seller does should problems occure. You are not giving pedro a chance to do anything about this and coming out and bashing him....bullshit if you ask me.....let the situation play out before you make an ass of yourself.
How many time have you read about fish dieing in shipping? A lot over the winter months. If the seller does nothing about this, then there is a problem, but to come out and bash before they have a chance to do something about it....bullshit.


----------



## kouma (Sep 1, 2003)

jdk79 said:


> This is the reason I would never order from Pedro....bad service, bad advice and damaged fish. This fish should of never been sent. Simple as that. Ammonia burn shouldn't take place with this small of a fish unless it was sitting for more than 2 days or something like that. Stick with Ash or George and you don't have to worry about this kind of stuff happening.


 Yea, that wasn't nice at all. Anyways it not a person's fault, its the whole process of ordering online and its risks, that's why I hate it


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

Here are some pictures i just took of him a few minutes ago.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

more


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

last one.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

for sure, last one.


----------



## jdk79 (Feb 22, 2003)

To you guys that are saying my statement is ignorant??? Come on... This fish should of never been shipped. Easy to see. His tail was missing. Im not trying to put anyone down that was not my goal in my statement. I was just saying my opinion and what others such as Ash or George would do and not do. I wasn't saying anything about what Pedro will do about this but it shouldn't even of come to that. This was not a shipping issue unless the box was sitting for 2-3 days.


----------



## aquascape (Mar 16, 2003)

Holy S__t..
Blueprint why haven't you called or emailed me and let me know how he arrived?








but don't worry I will replace the fish or give you a credit, your choice.

How are the Caribe doing? Did they arrive with ammonia burn as well or was it just the Manuelli? How was the tail when you received him? 
When i bagged him his fins and tail were perfect, did the tail fall off?
How was the water quality in the bag? Did the water smell?

From the looks of him it seems like he had a bad case of ammonia burn and now it's getting infected (cotton patches). The odd thing is that ammonia burn usually affects the eyes first since they are the most sensitive part on the fish.
Are the eyes cloudy (foggy, hazy)?

ammonia burn is caused by the ammonia burning or eating away the skin of the fish.
What happens is when a fish looses thier protective sime coat from being stressed out due to shipping the ammonia will burn the sensitve parts of the fish such as the fins, eyes and gills, leaving them open to bacterial infections. Most of the time the burnt areas will become infected or rot away because there is no blood flow passing through that area . The fist thing you should do is add acouple of drops of hydrogen peroxide to the tank, what that will do is increase the oxygen level in the tank increasing the blood flow to the infected areas, also remove the carbon from your filter and add vitamins to the tank B-12, B-6, B-50 these are the viatmins fish need/use to heal/grow fins. I prefer to use B-12, B-6 for ammonia burn, that you would buy in a local vitamin shop for human consumption, use one tablet to 30 gallons of water. What i do is put the tablets in a blender with tank water and blend until they are fully dissolved after 3 days add carbon for 24 hours and repeat the procedure 2 more times also add methylene blue for treatment of fungus or any other infections (secondary infections). In my oppinion this is the best method of healing Ammonia burn and you should see major results after the first dose. Contrary to what many people say do not add salt!!!! Salt will actually stress the fish out even more. Salt is a good remedy for external parasites but not for open wounds. If you have any questions please call me and i will help you otherwise i will call you on Monday to discuss the replacement.
Pedro
201-818-0666



> Ammonia burn shouldn't take place with this small of a fish unless it was sitting for more than 2 days or something like that


Hey Mr. Know it all 
Ammonia burn can happen within an hour.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

aquascape said:


> Holy S__t..
> Blueprint why haven't you called or emailed me and let me know how he arrived?:rock:
> but don't worry I will replace the fish or give you a credit, your choice.
> 
> ...


 Hi Pedro, i thought my cousin Mark called you regarding the fish since it was his Credit Card....the caribe's came in fine and are in good health, they are perfect and doing well. There water looked good and i did not notice anything wrong with it.

The Manuelli's water was a little yellower than the Caribe's and i noticed a bit of an odor from the bag, nothing to intense but nothing like what the caribe's bags exhibited. His eyes are fine but when I first got home and put him in the water i noticed it a little cloudy, it went away but as i stated the cotton like fur has grown through the back end of his body.

I left the message to my cousin to let you know how the fish arrived.... i don't have long distance at my residence and i've been really busy at work handling some issues that have risen within the department.

I will however call you tomorrow and i'm sure we can work something out.

Thank you Pedro.


----------



## aquascape (Mar 16, 2003)

Not a problem
I will only be at the office in the afternoon but email me your phone number and i will call you as soon as i get there.
pedro


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

Will do pedro, i sent you an email with my work phone.


----------



## kouma (Sep 1, 2003)

so there a hope this fish would make it, or it is too late?


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

he is struggling....i woke up this morning to see no tail, completely gone but he's still mobile.

i will keep you guys updated and snap more pictures when i return from work.


----------



## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

If you are planning on using methylene blue, I suggest using it at half strength (especially on a stressed out piranha). Piranhas are generally sensitive to dyes like malachite green and methylene blue so monitor the fish carefully and prepare to do a large water change and throw in fresh carbon if it seems like the fish is not responding well to the medication. Also, monitor water quality as the use of methylene blue can disrupt your biological filter.

Pedro: I'm not a proponent of the use of salt for everything, but can you expand on this? Is this from your experience or is there anything in a journal that I can read up on? Thanks.


> Contrary to what many people say do not add salt!!!! Salt will actually stress the fish out even more. Salt is a good remedy for external parasites but not for open wounds.


blueprint: I'm glad that Pedro is correcting the problem with your fish.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

Thank you for your help DonH..... I will look for the meds you specified in your thread and pick up a new carbon pack today at the LFS.

I'm at work right now and i'm hoping i come home to see the manuelli alive.... but i'm also happy Pedro is helping me out on this guy and i can sure count on him when I do decide to buy another fish in the future.

Do you have any other suggestions on what I can do to make him more comfortable?


----------



## SLANTED (Dec 7, 2003)

Keep us posted man. Hope he pulls through. Maybe dim the lights or keep them turned off to help him out.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

SLANTED said:


> Keep us posted man. Hope he pulls through. Maybe dim the lights or keep them turned off to help him out.


 Lights are completely off and his tank is covered up.

had my sister test the water and the results remain the same.

pH: 6.8
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: .5

Sister told me he's swimming around actively but he still has not eaten since i got him on tuesday....any suggestions?


----------



## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

blueprint said:


> Thank you for your help DonH..... I will look for the meds you specified in your thread and pick up a new carbon pack today at the LFS.
> 
> Do you have any other suggestions on what I can do to make him more comfortable?


I did not recommend the use of methylene blue. Pedro did... I was making sure you understood the risks of using it. That being said, methylene blue is very effective against fungal infections and is less toxic than malachite green but it can still affect your biological filter.

It can also be columnaris (a bacterial infection which is commonly mistaken for fungus). In which case, you should be treating it with a gram negative antibiotic like Maracyn Two. Since nitrifiers are also gram negative bacteria, be prepared to re-cycle your tank when treatment is complete.

It's very difficult to distinguish between the two... but if you look closely at the wound fungus will look like tiny bristle-like hairs while columnaris will have a fuzzy border. Also fungus is usually a grayish white while a columnaris wound has more of a yellowish tinge.

As for food, don't feed it. I see in one of your photos that you have some feeders in the tank. If it's hungry, it will chase after them. Feeding him will only worsen water quality if it remains in the tank uneaten.

If the infection doesn't spread, its chances of survival is very good. I'm not sure if the tail will ever grow back though... I had a similar situation with an eigenmani that was shipped to me that made a full recovery. The condition was not as bad as your's but the infection did cause a loss of tail and reached the peduncle. I just made sure the water was clean and added salt. BTW, I knew that my fish was going to be in poor condition because I saw the pics before he sent it and received a discounted price because of it.

Here's are pics of it:








After: (Sorry for such a dark pic but the tail is 100% healed)


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

even though most of his problems are around the tail you mean to tell me if in fact he does survive he will not grow back his tail?

the white spots have stopped spreading but i took the feeder out last night and will try and feed him tonight with some shrimp....if he doesn't touch it i'll take it out and retry it again another time.

From the look of your fish he seems to have grown back his tail....my manuelli's tail looked like his before so i'm really hoping if he does survive his tail grows back. Is it possible?


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

Here are brand new pictures i just took of him a few minutes ago.

No Progress from what i can see.


----------



## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)

Damm........


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

more


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

last one.... what do you guys think?


----------



## badforthesport (Jan 8, 2004)

i still think you got f*ck on this deal. hope more deals are on the way to fix this one.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

Even though he's not looking good i'm hoping he pulls through. As long as i know pedro has my back on this I will be a returning customer.


----------



## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Ouch, that doesn't look good at all... :sad: 
I doubt he'll get his tail fin back - it looks like it is completely gone. I hope he'll make it, though!

Good luck with him, and keep us updated









And people: this thread is about a sick fish that needs help - keep it on topic, and post dealer experiences (good or bad) elsewhere, and please refrain from talking crap (this is between blueprint and Pedro, and *no*one else), ok?
Thanks :smile:


----------



## Atlanta Braves Baby! (Mar 12, 2003)

Damn doesnt look very good there bro! Hope you work this out with Pedro.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

no progress.... didn't eat the shrimp i gave him last night or this morning.

it has now been 4 days since i got him and hasn't eaten yet. :sad:


----------



## aquascape (Mar 16, 2003)

blueprint said:


> Even though he's not looking good i'm hoping he pulls through. As long as i know pedro has my back on this I will be a returning customer.


 don't worry i will give you a credit towards another fish. lets just hope this guy pulls through.


----------



## killer piranha (Jan 23, 2004)

have you tride melaflex


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

aquascape said:


> blueprint said:
> 
> 
> > Even though he's not looking good i'm hoping he pulls through. As long as i know pedro has my back on this I will be a returning customer.
> ...


 Thank you pedro, I appreciate all your help.

Let's hope this guy pulls through.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

tried melafix already. only med i've tried as of now.


----------



## fishofury (May 10, 2003)

Damn, that manny looks tore up. Hope he pulls through. Good luck and keep us posted.


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

i'm hoping for the best.


----------



## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

blueprint said:


> it has now been 4 days since i got him and hasn't eaten yet. :sad:


I don't think you really need to worry about the amount of food he gets the coming days - piranha's can go without food for quite some time: 4 days without food is barely scratching the surface of their resilience...
Your fish isn't a fat-ass, but he is not emaciated, or even skinny either - I think he has enough fat storage for at least 10 days.

So, don't worry too much about him not eating yet - if he pulls through, he'll catch up in no time.
If you want to offer him a chance to eat, you could buy a shoal of cheap tetra's or barbs, which he can try to catch if he's really hungry (without the additional stress of netting out uneaten shrimp).

Once again good luck!


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

thanks Judazzz.... that is reassuring.

but guess what.... here is some progress, he ate the feeder fish that was in his tank when i got home so that's a good sign, i guess if he wants it he'll get it.

I will definatley take weekly pictures of him as time goes by.

Thanks guys.


----------



## Atlanta Braves Baby! (Mar 12, 2003)

blueprint said:


> thanks Judazzz.... that is reassuring.
> 
> but guess what.... here is some progress, he ate the feeder fish that was in his tank when i got home so that's a good sign, i guess if he wants it he'll get it.
> 
> ...


 Atleast we have some good news! I hope he pulls threw! :sad:


----------



## blueprint (Jan 3, 2004)

i will keep you guys updated next weekend......he literally has holes on his body from the ammonia burn...... :sad:


----------



## mattmatt123 (Nov 13, 2003)

i think if the ammia burn goes away his tail will grow back. one of my rbp's his tail was compleatly bitten off i couldnt belive he lived throw it and i think if he can beat the burn his tail will grow back good luck. i hope he makes it.


----------



## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

blueprint said:


> but guess what.... here is some progress, he ate the feeder fish that was in his tank when i got home so that's a good sign, i guess if he wants it he'll get it.


 That's great news!
It's a sign he still has a will to live, and that despite all he's going through, he is still acting normal (as in instinctive): let's hope it only goes better from now on


----------



## You (Sep 22, 2003)

good luck with the fish man


----------



## als (Aug 23, 2003)

That manny was definitly in trouble prior to shipping!!


----------



## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

Good luck on that Manny :nod: ...!


----------

