# Can Fish feel pain?



## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/10/1044725683181.html

What do you guys think?


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## hydroshutter (Jan 12, 2003)

I think they can because when I use to catch big bass out of rivers they'd be really flipping when I sliced there heads off cleaning them before the skillet comes out..

They hadn't been out of water long either.


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## CHUD (Jan 4, 2003)

It is a fact they feel pain. I didn't even look at the link to figure that one out. Justifying this would make me feel pain


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

I think that they can feel pain also. Did ya ever see p's fight and see one get a good bite and the other one just spaz.
And then the dispute usually stops for a little. And the other just stays well enough away.


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## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

we all feel pain....especially when we stub our feet or get a paper cut....but fish do feel pain...i remember when i went fishin with a couple friends, when we did get some fish, we'd beat their heads in with the butt of our knives...such a horrible way for a fish to die


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

It makes sense that they dont. The reaction to getting bitten could be more of a survival instinct than actual pain. When one of my cariba had a large bite out of his back, I added a lot of salt to the water and he did not freak out. Have you ever added salt water to a cut? It is painful but he didnt seem to even notice.


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

They also say newbornes dom't feel pain when they get circumsized. Ive seen it and i see the pain in their eyes and cries.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Raptor said:


> They also say newbornes dom't feel pain when they get circumsized. Ive seen it and i see the pain in their eyes and cries.


They dont remember being circumsized, of course they feel it but when you are young you wont remember it.


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

Yes. That's true. But i just think pain is just a very effective way of self preservation. In us and all species.
Just my 2 cents.


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

Im sure they feel pain, what level of pain they feel is another story. you have to remeber that the sence of pain is a useful thing (even though it sucks) it tells you that something is wrong. even in fish when they get bit, they feel it and its like ouch, this sucks, im gona get out of here


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## SnowCichlid. (Jan 10, 2003)

I am with you guys as well ... I think they feel pain or else the feeders wouldnt run after being nipped. Also it says that they have no fear.... yah right... why do you think we have skittish fish, or some that hide when you are doing water changes.... I think more research is needed on their behalf


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I think you guys may be giving fish a little too much credit.

"Also it says that they have no fear.... yah right... why do you think we have skittish fish, or some that hide when you are doing water changes"

Once again I refer to survival instinct when it comes to skittish fish. Feeders arent afraid when they are first placed in the tank, they soon learn they are prey and the survival instinct takes over. I am no shrink, but fear can paralyze your actions, survival instinct causes you to act. If 6 piranha's the size of a whales were attacking someone you will most likely get one of 2 reactions. Either they will be so scared and resigned to die that they will just let it happen or they will try to get away. I have yet to see a feeder not try to get away. To me that says "survival instinct". Like I said, I am not shrink and could be way off base.

"I think they feel pain or else the feeders wouldnt run after being nipped."

I dont think this has anything to do with pain, if someone took a shot at you with a gun and missed wouldnt you run? You are not feeling any pain but your survival instinct takes over and you hall ass. I think this is what feeders do.


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

The answer could very well be moote.
Theories are a knowledgeable guess. And they have been disproven many many times in every aspect of sceince. I have no right so say they don't or do what i'm just stating is opinion of mine.
I admit that something is goin on whether is is survival or instint, or all the above. Im not tring to say i'm right.
But somethings we may never Know.
Unless we can get the pet phsycic to ask? :laughlong:


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

I have a little info about fish survival that might be interesting:

yesterday, I saw a documentary on NGC (Built for the kill) about the king fisher, and it explained something about how small neon tetras survive a lightening fast king fisher assault, which gives the fish no response time whatsoever. Their lateral line 'picks up' the vibration as soon as the bird's beak hits the surface (creating pressure waves), and this makes them flex certain muscles, causing them to move sideways. This happens completely instinctively/unconscious (sp?), but it oftentimes saves the fish's live...
This is also the reason why fish dart erratically when you tap the tank glass.
Personally, I don't believe mid-level fish freeze when they are attcked by a predator, because of this unvoluntary response to changes in water pressure.

"_I think they feel pain or else the feeders wouldnt run after being nipped._"

I agree with Grosse: I've seen feeders in my tank with their tails completely bitten off, but they were just as active as the ones which were still unharmed.
I feel sorry for the little guys, but I don't think they really experience pain.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Yeah I dont think they experience pain. I also heard that their memory only last like 3 seconds or something so they forget they got hurt 3 seconds after it happens. Kinda like Momento the movie


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Xenon said:


> I also heard that their memory only last like 3 seconds or something so they forget they got hurt 3 seconds after it happens. Kinda like Momento the movie


I don't think that's true. I mean, fish can be condition to respond to certain items: for example, feed p's out of an orange cup, for prolonged time, will make them react to that cup as soon as they see it, because they anticipate a meal. So they must associate that very cup with food, which means in a certain way they remember that the cup means food.
How would you explain why community fish are always coming up front when you approach their tank, and go to the surface when to open the tank canopy.
I know it's a pavlovian response, and has nothing to do with intelligence, but it at least implies fish can remember certain things (appearantly those things that are favorable to them...)

btw: Memento is one kick-ass movie


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

Yah well, I think they feel something cause when I hook a fish, I see its mouth opening and closing like its saying LET ME GO LET ME GO :rasp:

Don't we have somebody here that knows what fish think?

Let's hear from him and get his input.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

I didn't see the artical, but I do know that fish feel pain, why would you think that they don't?

If it is because of fishermans tails, they are mostly rubbish, after all I bet you can see that your fish have a longer memory than 3 seconds - otherwise why do they hide for a couple of days in new tanks?
and how do they remember their teritories?
I think this was made up to make people feel better when catching fish, the same reason why people say they don't feel pain.


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

"otherwise why do they hide for a couple of days in new tanks?
and how do they remember their teritories?"

This is all instinct and conditioned responses. A survival instinct. I'm no fish biologist but I know some one I can ask and find out for sure if they feel pain. BBL to post an answer.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I really dont buy the 3 sec memory either, that would imply that a large fish being eaten by piranhas will forget that it has lost half of its body and not know why, that sounds a bit too much for me to swallow,

if you want to test to see if fish feel pain, take out a goldfish and touch it with a scalding hot piece of metal and see what happens,

of course they feel pain, the have a complex system of nerves throughout their body, I would highly doubt all these organs are used for is for navigation (sensing current, strength and direction)


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

This is just one more thing we will never agree on. I believe I have given valid reason why I dont think they feel pain, as I am sure the people who disagree believe they have done the same.
I would just ask one last question.
What is the purpose of a fish feeling pain? 
It makes no difference in there life whether they feel pain or not. As Judazzz said, they feel vibrations in the water so they can tell if anything is approaching them. There eyes are placed so they can see all around them. There instinct is to survive and propagate the species, so that alone is reason to try to get away from a predator. 
I cant see a reason for them to feel pain.


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

"Despite the findings of Professor Rose's study, a spokesman for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, which has invested heavily in an anti-angling campaign, said: "We believe that fishing is barbaric. Of course animals can feel pain. They have sensitivity, if only to avoid predators.""

Still waiting for Frank to reply back, but found this last part interesting considering that PETA are humanistic idealists.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

And what about saltwater fish: as soon as they have an open wound (which happens a lot; it's a cold, cold world out there  ), they would be in a permanent state of pain.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

"if you want to test to see if fish feel pain, take out a goldfish and touch it with a scalding hot piece of metal and see what happens"

Have you actually done this or do you think it will produce a response greater than touching it with anything? Take a fish out of water and you are freaking him out anyways and then start to poke him with anything will result in a response.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

If your stance is they have no purpose to feel pain, then why do you think homans "need" to feel pain?


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

FROM FRANK:

People need to read through an article before making assumptions.

"His report, published in the American journal Reviews of Fisheries Science, has concluded that awareness of pain depends on functions of specific regions of the cerebral cortex which fish do not possess."

---------------
From me to Sir Nate:

"of course they feel pain, the have a complex system of nerves throughout their body, I would highly doubt all these organs are used for is for navigation (sensing current, strength and direction)"

I don't think your studies Nate match up with this scientists findings. Can you provide your data so I can send to Frank. He's in/out of his two homes.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

We have numerous reasons to feel pain. 
If we could not feel pain people would be walking around with broken ankles and other injuries that would never heal. You would continually bite the inside of your mouth. We have the ability to heal the sick, if there was no pain you would never know you were sick. 
Need more? How about this.
If humans did not feel pain, then when a baby hurts themselves they would not cry so how would you know they were hurt? :







:


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

grosse gurke: Stop it you are making to much sense :







:


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)




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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Goddamn it Fishman, I swear I've seen that quote you use in your signature before







:laughlong:


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

You noticed.







I'm trying to remember where I got it from .LOL


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

Check this out.
http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Raptor said:


> Check this out.
> http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm


Response Nate?

If I had a gavel I would slam it down and say "Case Closed!"

Even though it is a long article, it is a very interesting read.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

yes I read that article, my response how do we know for sure that fish would use the same part of the brain to sense pain as humans do?

I knew humans reasons for feeling pain I was just trying to say, why wouldnt fish need to feel it too.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Nate, if you knew why humans "need" to feel pain, why did you ask me the question?
Can you tell me why fish "need" to feel pain? 
I cant think of one reason fish would need to feel pain that would not be covered by another sense. Pain for a fish would be an unnecessary burden that I think evolution would have weeded out if it was ever there.


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

I know this is gonna seem like I'm starting an argument, I'm really not, just wondering how you reconcile what you said before and what you are saying now? And you didn't offer to tell us why your opinion differs that what the scientist reported on fish biology.

"of course they feel pain, the have a complex system of nerves throughout their body, I would highly doubt all these organs are used for is for navigation (sensing current, strength and direction) 
"
"I knew humans reasons for feeling pain I was just trying to say, why wouldnt fish need to feel it too."

Your first remark says they do then your second remark is a question.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

its all my opinion, that doesnt make it right or wrong

before I meant they have a complex nervous system so I would assume they could feel pain

try the test take a feeder and lightly touch a red hot piece of metal to its side and see how it reacts, then you make your own choice as whether they felt it or not


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

I didn't use a goldfish, I used a guppy, didn't do nothing except smoulder. I used a match, maybe I should have used the hot poker or other metal. Please no flaming. Sir Nate made a challenge and I did the test. BTW, b4 you ask, the fish didn't say nothing to me on why I burned him. He's alive and swimming around, alittle zinged. I told him Sir Nate made me do it.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I didnt make you do anything


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> try the test take a feeder and lightly touch a red hot piece of metal to its side and see how it reacts, then you make your own choice as whether they felt it or not


Nate,
Come on man, your in college, if it were that easy dont you think the people who have been studying this question for years would have figured it out?
Maybe you should e-mail the experts about you little experiment and see what there response would be. 
You said you read the article, didnt you read the part about the ameba, a single celled organism, or the starfish, having reaction to different stimuli, doesnt mean they feel pain.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Nate,
Before I forget, you still havent said why a fish would need to feel pain.


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

"try the test take a feeder"

Take some responsibility Sir Nate. You created the test as if you knew the end results.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> yes I read that article, my response how do we know for sure that fish would use the same part of the brain to sense pain as humans do?


Oh, and another thing, since you read the article, I thought you might want to see this section again in case you may have missed it.

"It might be argued that fish have the capacity to generate the psychological experience of pain by a different process than that occurring in the frontal lobes of the human brain, but such an argument is insupportable. The capacity to experience pain, as we know it, has required the massive expansion of our cerebral hemispheres, thus allocating large numbers of brain cells to the task of conscious experience, including the emotional reaction of pain. The small, relatively simple fish brain is fully devoted to regulating just the functions of which a fish is capable."


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

Well you know grosse gurke, they say humans evolved from the ocean and probably came from some fish or amphibian if not monkeys. I guess when you deal with a group like PETA, they haven't morph'd yet for their brains to catch up from fishes or other creatures LOL







???


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I dont even know what PETA is. My reasons for fish needing to feel pain would be the same as our need to feel it, that was my thought, I didnt know the results of the hot touch test, it was a simple thought, I guess I was wrong, and I did admit to it


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

Now I feel bad for burning that fish. Next time I'll know better than to buy into unproven experiments or someone's "simple" thoughts.. oo:


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## JEARBEAR (Jan 30, 2003)

I would say they feel pain, I have cut or the tail of feeders and they started moving real crazy and I threw him in the piranha tank. It was cool the feeder was double the size of the piranhas and they all attack him at once.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

fishman as if you care about that guppy, if you did you would not have tried at all


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

ok, maybe they don't feel pain, you have convinced me on that, but they must have some sence of feeling though, right?


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

They sense other things that are useful to them, like pressure differences through their lateral line. And perhaps they sense things we can't even imagine or measure, because they are 'constructed' so different from humans (and mammals in general)...


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

I still agree with Nate,
I have read the article from the daily telegraph (which is most defiantly infallible! ??? ) 
I believe this report has been produced to make fishermen happy with their methods of killing fish.
and Fishman : what on earth do you think you are doing burning a fish? I'm sure that must be against animal cruelty laws, and rightfully so!

I was particularly interested in this line

"An academic study comparing the nervous systems and responses of fish and mammals has found that fishes' brains are not sufficiently developed to allow them to sense pain or fear."

I have seen fish in fear, when a dominant fish takes control of a tank it can cause the other fish to hide continuously, this is obviously a fear of the other fish, and sometimes even of the fish keeper.
I would also like to know what type of "academic study" it was.

"Professor Rose, 60, said that previous studies which had indicated that fish can feel pain had confused nociception - responding to a threatening stimulus - with feeling pain."

and what was this bit? - it states that other research into this subject have concluded that fish can feel pain, I wonder why that was?

I also would like to point out when you see one fish take a bite out of another fishes fins, the other one has the kind of reaction you would expect if it felt pain.

I also looked at the second report on this, it went into brain structures, and comparing the human brain with that of a fishes, well that is just stupid, their is only limited info on the workings of a human brain, they don't completely know how it works, or what bit does what, they have an idea about some parts, but not all of it, so how can they compare it with that of a fish?
they could work in an entirely different way, after all they are not human, or even close to it!


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

"I have seen fish in fear, when a dominant fish takes control of a tank it can cause the other fish to hide continuously, this is obviously a fear of the other fish, and sometimes even of the fish keeper."

This is the point I have been trying to make. I dont think it is fear, but a survival instinct. Fear is an emotion and I dont think fish possess emotions. If it was actually fear, then why do feeders always get eaten? If I was a feeder, I would stay hidden all the f#cking time, come out only to quickly snach some food and then back in my hole. I have never seen feeders act this way. They will be attacked by a predator, and if they escape, they will hide for a few minutes and then will swim right back in front of the pred that tried to eat it.

"and what was this bit? - it states that other research into this subject have concluded that fish can feel pain, I wonder why that was?"

We are always finding out new things, The world was thought to be flat at one time.

"I also would like to point out when you see one fish take a bite out of another fishes fins, the other one has the kind of reaction you would expect if it felt pain."

I disagree with this because I have never seen a fish act like it was in pain. It tries to not get killed by swimming away or attacking back. How exactly does it act like it is in pain? If I had a bite taken out of my stomach, like a member posted happened to his red, do you think I would be trying to eat and have it coming out of the hole im my stomach? No F#cking way, that would be pain, And yet the little guy still is trying to eat.

"I also looked at the second report on this, it went into brain structures, and comparing the human brain with that of a fishes, well that is just stupid, their is only limited info on the workings of a human brain, they don't completely know how it works, or what bit does what, they have an idea about some parts, but not all of it, so how can they compare it with that of a fish?"

From what I have read, is fairly easy to tell what part of the brain reacts to different stimuly. They have that hat thing and when the subject is subjected to different typs of stimuly it records which part of the brain reacts to the different stimuly. So they can tell which part is responsible for pain.

The bottom line is we have a difference of oppinion. No big deal. No matter what I say, you will believe what you want and so will I. This has been fun.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

> The bottom line is we have a difference of oppinion. No big deal. No matter what I say, you will believe what you want and so will I. This has been fun.


Well said, Grosse!

Therefore:


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

No, dont lock it yet, Nate still hasnt answered the one question I really wanted him to answer. I answered his question on why humans need to feel pain, his response was as follows:

"I knew humans reasons for feeling pain I was just trying to say, why wouldnt fish need to feel it too."

And I want to know why a fish would need to feel pain? ???

I cant think of one reason a fish would need to feel pain and I was hoping Nate could enlighten me.

If you enter into a debate, you need to stick with it and defend your position. Dont just tuck the tail and run when it gets harder to defend your position. That is when it gets interesting, when you really need to give your response some thought, and not just spew the first line of crap that comes to mind.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

gg I thought I had already answered that, I was implying that fish would need to feel pain for similar reasons as humans, I would think a fish would need to feel pain to know when it is injured so it can take refuge somewhere and allow itself time to heal, that would especially make sense with injured piranhas.

what were you thinking of as far as a reason?


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

"fishman as if you care about that guppy, if you did you would not have tried at all "

Actually I didn't do anything to the guppy. Since you keep using scientific type answers to everybodies questions and to include making things sound like they are fact, I just said I did that just to see how you would respond. I think grosse gurke figured you out pretty good and you replied like I thought you would by suddenly reversing direction.

I think this is a good lesson for anyone that is a newbie to be very careful with advice from people that appear to know what they are talking about by suggesting experiments with their fish that the majority of more reliable people advice against. And this is not a flame answer, but just a good thread for everyone to read and learn. Or as Frank said to me more than a few times, "watch out for the snake oil dr."

:







:


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

grosse gurke said:


> No, dont lock it yet


Don't worry mate,
only in my dreams I'm a mod







:laughlong:



> I would think a fish would need to feel pain to know when it is injured so it can take refuge somewhere and allow itself time to heal, that would especially make sense with injured piranhas.


Nate, I think you give fish a bit too much credit: what you wrote is a thought based on reasoning, and fish (in fact, most, if not all animals) do not possess the capability to reason... That is what sets humans apart from animals (perhaps besides primates and a few other highly intelligent animals: but can't back that up, because I don't know much about that...)


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> gg I thought I had already answered that, I was implying that fish would need to feel pain for similar reasons as humans, I would think a fish would need to feel pain to know when it is injured so it can take refuge somewhere and allow itself time to heal, that would especially make sense with injured piranhas.
> 
> what were you thinking of as far as a reason?


I thought you may give some more specific reasons why a fish would need to feel pain. 
Maybe my piranhas are different but when they have been injured, they dont act any different and continue to hang with the group as if nothing has happened. This is the main reason I worry when one of my piranhas gets injured, because they dont hide and wait to heal. You may have gotten a different reaction from your fish when they are injured. 
I think we all want our fish to feel more and act more deliberately than they are capable.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

fishman2 said:


> "fishman as if you care about that guppy, if you did you would not have tried at all "
> 
> Actually I didn't do anything to the guppy. Since you keep using scientific type answers to everybodies questions and to include making things sound like they are fact, I just said I did that just to see how you would respond. I think grosse gurke figured you out pretty good and you replied like I thought you would by suddenly reversing direction.
> 
> ...


I didnt know the results of the experiment, however my hypothesis was that you would find the do react to it in a painful type reaction, I have hooked a fish through its eye before and attempted to remove the hook by pulling it out and the fish went crazy, thats why I though my experiment would show that they do react to pain.

where did I change directions with my answers? I still dont know why everybody insists on scientific answers for everything, I dont intend to answer as if they are scientific facts, I dont have the time in my busy life to read through science publications and articles like some of you do, if I had the time I might very well do so, but I have 20hrs worth of engineering classes every week, a high maintainence girlfriend, pets to care for, I am learning to play the elec guitar and ruin my own graphics/archetictural business on the side, believe me I barely have enough time to get on here to answer questions as it is


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

"If I was a feeder, I would stay hidden all the f#cking time, come out only to quickly snach some food and then back in my hole. I have never seen feeders act this way."

I have seen neon tetras acting like this, once I added some neons to a tank with tiger barbs in it, and one neon was eaten, the others were chased and hid, they wouldn't come out, and even when I moved the cover they darted into new cover.
I also saw this with 2 severums, one had been attacking the other, so the injured one hid on its side under some driftwood, for days.
I couldn't even see it, neither did I for one minute think it could have fit under the wood, but there it stayed.

"And I want to know why a fish would need to feel pain?"

A fish would need to feel pain to help with survival, and also to establish whether it has any paracites, Sun fish, even get sea gulls to remove large parisites from thr sides of them, how would they know about them, if they could not feel them?
and if they could feel them, but not feel pain, why would they go to the surface to get help removing them?

"From what I have read, is fairly easy to tell what part of the brain reacts to different stimuly. They have that hat thing and when the subject is subjected to different typs of stimuly it records which part of the brain reacts to the different stimuly. So they can tell which part is responsible for pain."

By no means am I an expert on the brain, but my mother did die following brain surgery, so as a result I did have to speak to several brain docters, and it seemed to me that they had no definate answers, they did have ideas, and some evidence for what does what, but largly it was hit and hope, They even told me about some of the most usefull reasearch (done a long time ago) where they probed parts of a mans brain while he was awake, to see the effects on his body.
This to me prooved that their is still much to learn about the human brain, and if their information on the human brain is that sketchy, how on earth do they think they could understand the brain of a fish?


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

"if you want to test to see if fish feel pain, take out a goldfish and touch it with a scalding hot piece of metal and see what happens,

of course they feel pain,"

There you go again, changing what you are saying to what you ACTUALLY said.

Whatever, I'm done with this post. Anybody else need any further proof?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

You make some good points Innes, for a brit









I have never seen a fish hide for days, but there are many things I have never seen. 
I would not attribute this to fear, because that is an emotion and you will never convince me that fish feel emotions. They do possess instincts and they could be hiding to survive, but not because of fear.

As for the feeling pain, I still dont see a need for it. There is a difference between and ich and pain. There is also a difference between thinking "hey, I have a parasite on me and this big bird will help me get it off" and following basic instincts and behaviors.

We could go round and round but I should probably get some work done today


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

New try:


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> its all my opinion, that doesnt make it right or wrong
> 
> before I meant they have a complex nervous system so I would assume they could feel pain
> 
> try the test take a feeder and lightly touch a red hot piece of metal to its side and see how it reacts, then you make your own choice as whether they felt it or not


here is my actual quote fishman


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> if you want to test to see if fish feel pain, take out a goldfish and touch it with a scalding hot piece of metal and see what happens,
> 
> of course they feel pain, the have a complex system of nerves throughout their body, I would highly doubt all these organs are used for is for navigation (sensing current, strength and direction)


Here is your other post nate, I believe this is the one he was refering too.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

oh, ok, still show that I am not certain on my stance by the last sentence though, so jump off


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

huh?

"oh, ok, still show that I am not certain on my stance by the last sentence though, so jump off"

"I would highly doubt all these organs are used for is for navigation"

Sounds to me you are certain that these organs are used for something else besides navigation.

Just when I thought this thread was through and reasonable people have stepped in. LOL

:







:


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> New try:


How much more reason do you want


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

Quoted from this website...

_Fish, it appears, may have remarkably different systems of nociception and brain function from mammals and therefore may not experience the precise sensation of pain that humans do but this does not mean that fish are incapable of experiencing a negative psychological state analogous to human pain in response to noxious stimuli.

...our current body of knowledge about the neuro-physiology of fish is inadequate for either argument to be entirely convincing. _

I like this part the most...

_Therefore it is particularly relevant in this case to remember that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" (Sherwin, 2001). We must remain open-minded and recognize that our ability to answer the question "do fish feel pain?" with confidence is limited by the constraints of our own perception._


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

"Fish lack the brains to feel pain, says the latest school of thought
By Rajeev Syal in London
February 10 2003"

"I like this part the most...

Therefore it is particularly relevant in this case to remember that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" (Sherwin, 2001). We must remain open-minded and recognize that our ability to answer the question "do fish feel pain?" with confidence is limited by the constraints of our own perception."

Looks like your reference is outdated, so is the main body of what you linked to. Nice try though.


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

First of all, I never took a position on whether fish feel pain or not. I linked to that article simply because I felt it was important to keep an open mind and not be so definitive about something that we are still learning about. Quoting something that was dated 2001 is hardly what I feel is outdated (considering that this is early 2003), but what is more important is WHAT was quoted. "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". That will NEVER be outdated.

Finally, as for your updated quote...what do you think the latest school of thought really means? Research regarding "can certain animals feel pain" have been published for years. What makes you think the latest school of thought is the final one? What NEW evidence have Rajeev Syal or other scientists found in the past year or 2 that has definitively answered the question?

BTW, most updated info.

DonH "Latest school of thought shows that fish do INDEED feel pain" Feb. 11 6:00p.m. PST


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

Good point, my reply is, no one will ever know anything because we are not fish! We can only assume things or use science to find a reasonable answer. Until a fish says, HEY your hurting me! Then you can use your own thought on what you think it is doing when it flops around. Personally, its not going to stop me from fishing or gutting fish so I can eat it.

And yah, I thump'em on the head before taking a nice sharp knife to slice it from the anus on up and rip its guts out. What I'm thinking as I'm doing this, wow this is gonna be tasty on a nice hot BBQ or frying pan. And it is.

So I can agree with you that nothing is ever final. Hell I'm still waiting for Bigfoot to be discovered cause everybody says they find foot prints and I haven't seen it yet! But I'm sure its out there cause people say they still see it.








:look:


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

damn, they must feel pain, but I don't know, maybe they don't. sh*t, now im never going to get any sleep, ill be thinking about this all night.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> Judazzz said:
> 
> 
> > New try:


lets try again!

conclusion to this thread - we disagree with each other, fish might feel pain, but then again, they might not!


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## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

I FEEL PAIN FOR READING THIS TREAD....MY EYES HURT







....BUT I LIKED THE DISCUSSION, I JUST DIDNT READ IT ALL, TILL NOW :nod:


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

bump :laughlong:

Round two: FIGHT!!!!


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> bump :laughlong:
> 
> Round two: FIGHT!!!!


Are you stoned? ???


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> bump :laughlong:
> 
> Round two: FIGHT!!!!










:rockin:


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## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

what'cha trying to say juda? ??? trying to say that i'm the one who instigates everything? ???







:laughlong:


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## JEARBEAR (Jan 30, 2003)

Fishman2 and nate, you guys need to stop all the sh*t, every thrend you guys are a part of this happens, enough is enough, It was cool to watch at first now it is getting old.

About people saying nate gives wrong info is bullshit in IMO, nate has never gave me bad info

Fishman2, you need to stop getting on nates sh*t even if you dont agree.

Bottom line everyone has there own opinions.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

grosse gurke said:


> Judazzz said:
> 
> 
> > bump :laughlong:
> ...


Actually, I am









But that's besides the point: I just want to enjoy people ripping each others throats again







:laughlong:


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

USMC*sPiKeY* said:


> what'cha trying to say juda? ??? trying to say that i'm the one who instigates everything? ???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes sir!
To me, you're the root of all evil


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## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> Yes sir!
> To me, you're the root of all evil


then i guess when you come down to my place, i'll make you my personal bitch! :laughlong:







...i'll be waiting to poke you with my trident :laughlong:







....buuuuuuuurn baby burn!


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

get a room USMC*sPiKeY* & Judazzz :







:


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

I feel fishman2's argument of "we will never know for sure because we arent fish" is majorly flawed. With that opinion, you are putting absolutely NO stock in science to discover and deduce the internal workings of organisms besides human beings.

I will never be a chimp, reptile, or dinosaur yet I believe if science can apply what they have learned definatvly from our own human experience and apply it to questions outside the body using the scientific method, we can with reasonable accuracy have success.

I do not think fish can feel pain. They, like many other organisms, run on pure instinct. You do not need "pain" in order to flee a predator.....all you need is instinct.

Fishman2, give a little stock in the science you seem to put so much value in.

:sleepy2: now that I have gotten the last word in :nod: , can we kill this thread??


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## fishman2 (Nov 27, 2002)

"Fishman2, give a little stock in the science you seem to put so much value in."

Xenon: How dare you ruin my thread, cause I was being nice to the "animals are human too crowd."! When I post what science has determined the crowd goes the opposite way, so I was just giving in a tiny bit just in case my fish says stop hooking me!

jeeeeeezzzzzzz


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

If you call what I did ruining a thread....that is :laughlong:

Besides, even if I did, you owe me a few because you have ruined...... nuff said.









This thread is closed.....


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