# rbp's which are brothers and sisters



## Kitty (Jul 29, 2004)

Hello!







Tomorrow I will have 10 reds which will be siblings (I don't know how to say it in English - I mean these reds will be brothers and sisters







I really want to try to breed my reds in the future







and here comes my questions. Is there a big likelihood their "kids" will have genetical defects or something like this? Did you ever breed rbp's which were brothers and sisters for themself? Thanks in advance for any help!


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## Joga Bonito (Oct 30, 2004)

they dont know what a brother or sister is :rasp:


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## Kitty (Jul 29, 2004)

henry 79 said:


> they dont know what a brother or sister is :rasp:
> [snapback]1015485[/snapback]​


I know







They also don't know that it is just an incest







But I'm really afraid of some genetical defects or something like this


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## WorldBelow07 (Dec 16, 2004)

they probably wont get genetical defects as long as the parents are healthy


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## Kitty (Jul 29, 2004)

WorldBelow07 said:


> they probably wont get genetical defects as long as the parents are healthy
> [snapback]1015638[/snapback]​


Thanks WorldBelow07! It was really worrying me


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## RBPIRANHA 1 (Nov 17, 2004)

sorry but Before we(or i) give you any advice







, here are some questions we(or i) can help if so
how many gallons of the tank r u putting them in?
r u gonna put rocks or sand?(it depends on sizes of rocks)
here are some advice people will give you. get a heater and do water changes








maybe people can really help you alot







if these questions were answered by you
forgot! and yes! brothers or sisters don't matter. like father dogs mate with daughter dogs.







and my bettas were brothers and sisters and they breed


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## clintard_leonard (Mar 24, 2005)

incest is the best!


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## CTREDBELLY (Apr 8, 2005)

just cause their red bellys doesn't mean u need to make them red NECK!


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## Kitty (Jul 29, 2004)

RBPIRANHA 1 said:


> sorry but Before we(or i) give you any advice
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! OK, here come my answers. I will put 10 reds in a 80x26x20 or 80x27x18 or 94x24x18 tank or something like this (I still don't know the final dimensions of my upgoing bigger tank). In my tank there will be natural sand on the bottom, a lot of plants, driftwoods and a lot of hiding places. Right now I have 2 heaters 200W each (in my 52x24x24 tank with 6 reds - soon I will have bigger tank with much bigger footprint and 4 more rbp's) and I change 30% of water ones a week. But I must underline - I'm not asking how te breed reds (I've read about this a lot of archival topics







) but I'm wondering if there is a big likelihood that offspring of my reds will have genetical defects (because their parents will by sibilings







).


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## RBPIRANHA 1 (Nov 17, 2004)

Kitty said:


> RBPIRANHA 1 said:
> 
> 
> > sorry but Before we(or i) give you any advice
> ...


I am thinking a tank the 94x24x18 you maybe planning is best for breeding because they need more width of swimming than height. you could ask people from the breeding team in here like mantis, holywood, or hestatus if you wanted to breed them :laugh: . well the setup you are going to have is perfect. good luck







and yes parents can still breed with their childrens(if they catch up :laugh: ) and siblings :laugh:


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## Kitty (Jul 29, 2004)

RBPIRANHA 1 said:


> I am thinking a tank the 94x24x18 you maybe planning is best for breeding because they need more width of swimming than height. you could ask people from the breeding team in here like mantis, holywood, or hestatus if you wanted to breed them :laugh: . well the setup you are going to have is perfect. good luck
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks RBPIRANHA 1! If I found someone who wants to stick such long pieces of glass together in my room (this tank is to long to carry it through my anteroom







) I will certainly buy the longer tank (I'm afraid of building new tank myself







). If I don't found such a person I will buy the shorter but wider tank. Thanks for your reply!


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## Slim (Jan 9, 2005)

sorry to tell you this, because I know its gross to even think about, but most incest cases with humans dont have any type of genetic defects or mutations.


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## Kitty (Jul 29, 2004)

Slim said:


> sorry to tell you this, because I know its gross to even think about, but most incest cases with humans dont have any type of genetic defects or mutations.
> [snapback]1018050[/snapback]​


I think that likelihood of genetic defects would be low if the incest happened once or even twice







But these defects were certainly more probable in families in which incest took place more often - for example in royal dynasties (for example the genetic disease Hemophilia and a lot of others). So if my reds made an incest only once







I think their babies would be all right!


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## Slim (Jan 9, 2005)

Dude how do you think cats do it? They have incest all the time. Havent you ever thought about it? Or ever read the bible 2 poeple were created one man one woman, who had 2 sons, and probably some daughters later on also, well where did everyone else come from to have everyone else. We all came from adam and eve did we not?


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## Kitty (Jul 29, 2004)

Slim said:


> Dude how do you think cats do it? They have incest all the time. Havent you ever thought about it? Or ever read the bible 2 poeple were created one man one woman, who had 2 sons, and probably some daughters later on also, well where did everyone else come from to have everyone else. We all came from adam and eve did we not?
> [snapback]1018380[/snapback]​


Yes, I know. But if this takes place many many times the likelihood of genetic defects will be much higher. In royal dynasties in which incest was often taking place the genetic diseases occured more often. And this is not only a speculation but the historic fact







And by the way I believe in God but creating all people by Adam and Eve is just a symbol for me (even some priests in my country are talking like that) - but everyone can have his own opinion







and it isn't a discussion for Piranha Breeding forum


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## Slim (Jan 9, 2005)

[/quote]

Yes, I know. But if this takes place many many times the likelihood of genetic defects will be much higher. In royal dynasties in which incest was often taking place the genetic diseases occured more often. And this is not only a speculation but the historic fact :nod: And by the way I believe in God but creating all people by Adam and Eve is just a symbol for me (even some priests in my country are talking like that) - but everyone can have his own opinion







and it isn't a discussion for Piranha Breeding forum








[snapback]1018567[/snapback]​[/quote]

You are very right my friend. Well maybe in the Lounge section it would be alright?
Just stating my opinion just like you. It isnt bad to be different is it?


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

If they are F1 fish (first generation offspring from wild fish or parents from a different batch), I think they should be all right - genetically defected fish are usually taken care of - either they die because they don't function properly, or they are weaker and eaten by their sibblings.

The question is wheter piranha's have some sort of naturally built-in incest-control: would sibblings start breeding if they mature, or is there something that holds them back? Is the drive to reproduce stronger than the natural forces that try to avoid incest and inbreeding?
I have 5 Reds, all brothers and sisters, for three years, and they don't show any interest - the only one that did was from a different batch, and he died last year.

I think the only way to know for sure is to let nature run its course.
If you want to breed them, you could consider trading a few of your Reds for others, from different batches.


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## Kitty (Jul 29, 2004)

Judazzz said:


> If they are F1 fish (first generation offspring from wild fish or parents from a different batch), I think they should be all right - genetically defected fish are usually taken care of - either they die because they don't function properly, or they are weaker and eaten by their sibblings.
> 
> The question is wheter piranha's have some sort of naturally built-in incest-control: would sibblings start breeding if they mature, or is there something that holds them back? Is the drive to reproduce stronger than the natural forces that try to avoid incest and inbreeding?
> I have 5 Reds, all brothers and sisters, for three years, and they don't show any interest - the only one that did was from a different batch, and he died last year.
> ...


Thanks Juuudaz - as I said before you have a very huge knowledge about fishes!







Unfortunately I don't know if my reds are F1 fishes (I guess their parents aren't certainly wild fishes but they could be from a different batch. I will ask the person who I've bought my rbp's from). Despite the probability that my reds aren't F1 I will try to breed them and, as you said, let the nature run its course (though I know if the incest takes place many times there will be higher likelihood of recessive genes disclosing (I don't know how to say it in English) - which are of course responsible for genetic diseases). I really don't want to sell my 4 new reds (one of them is from a different batch) - it is risky in my country because it is likely I won't have the possibility to buy another reds







Besides I don't want to sell my new reds (my 6 rbp's are too beautiful to sell them







) because I want to show them that living in our aquariums doesn't always has to be so bad







(these poor reds endured a lot of stress in very poor water quality of my friend's tank). Thanks Juuudaz for your reply ones again!


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Well, if you have 2 different groups with unknown background, the chances are high they come from more than 1 batch - I'd just put them together and see how things work. It's not certain that, if they breed, you'll end up with a batch of genetically deformed fish, even if all fish share the same parents, although there's an increased possibility.

Just take good care of your fish (which shouldn't be a problem at all), and nature will take over from there


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## Kitty (Jul 29, 2004)

Judazzz said:


> Well, if you have 2 different groups with unknown background, the chances are high they come from more than 1 batch - I'd just put them together and see how things work. It's not certain that, if they breed, you'll end up with a batch of genetically deformed fish, even if all fish share the same parents, although there's an increased possibility.
> 
> Just take good care of your fish (which shouldn't be a problem at all), and nature will take over from there
> 
> ...


Thanks Juuudazz! My 3 new reds are also brothers and sisters of my 6 reds (I was recently writting about that in my "Ugly and poor rbp's" topic. I don't know if the parents of my and my friend's reds are sibilings or not - I will ask about that the person who I and my friend have bought reds from. Only the 4th new piranha is from a different batch and surely has different and not related parents (it is the same situation as you have had







- only one piranha in the shoal is from different batch







) As you said I will just take care of my reds as good as I can and let the nature run its course







Thanks for your reply ones again!


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## Kitty (Jul 29, 2004)

Kitty said:


> Thanks Juuudazz! My 3 new reds are also brothers and sisters of my 6 reds (I was recently writting about that in my "Ugly and poor rbp's" topic. I don't know if the parents of my and my friend's reds are sibilings or not - I will ask about that the person who I and my friend have bought reds from. Only the 4th new piranha is from a different batch and surely has different and not related parents (it is the same situation as you have had
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> ...


I forgot to add: those 4 new reds my friend gave me a few days ago (he wanted to get rid of them). Three of these new p's are sibilings - they are also brothers and sisters of my 6 reds. Only one of 4 new reds is from a different batch and surely has different and not related parents. And by the way: Thanks ones again!


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## Slim (Jan 9, 2005)

Well I had a F4 tornado hit my house. And than mover to F3 on the scrabble board. LOL Just kidding you know I love you Judazzz.


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## Kitty (Jul 29, 2004)

Slim said:


> Well I had a F4 tornado hit my house. And than mover to F3 on the scrabble board. LOL Just kidding you know I love you Judazzz.
> [snapback]1021492[/snapback]​


It wasn't a tornado - maybe it was F117 military aircraft flying just above your head


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