# Is it possible for reds and Golds to inter breed??



## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Hmmm where do I begin.. I have a 120 gallon tank with 16 meduim reds 5-6 inches, and 4 golds same size. I had a really large spawn a few days ago... This is what happened... I never saw one egg... One of the golds had taken over 1/3 of the tank.. Swam in circles, and wouldn't let another fish.. Gold or red withing a 3 foot area of him.... The reds all turned dark... Both reds and gold were pretty much stripped off all there fins... <No it wasn't aggression>; except the one swimming in circles. I have had these fish together for almost a year now.. In a 90 gallon.. I just recently moved them







to a larger tank.... The gold swam in abrupt circles, and defended something.... this lasted for about a week..... Tuesday 22,2003 I went to feed my fish, and saw litterally thousands of small fish... They were pooling near the corners, and edges of the tank.... I can't imagine how many I lost to my filtration... I got 2 filters transferring 1000 gallons per hour...
I did manage to set up a 55 gallon with no gravel and transfer the fry..... I really need some pointers on how to feed these fish and keep them alive too.... I will keep you posted... and post pics if they have any distiguishing characteristics leading to an inter-breed.... Hell I will post pics any way... This is my first spawn ever... Another reason I am posting this.. <Every one that has seen me set-up told me to remove the golds, or they will never spawn> They were very wrong!!!!!I thought the gold was doing a mating ritual.. I truely did what every one told me not to do.. I started to think that all my golds in the tank were males... So I went to my gold school, and took my largest and fatest one out and added to this tank.... 3 days latter I had babies.. I don't know that the fry are, but I am confiendent reds and golds can co-exist and spawn together.. I got pics to verify this....
Any one that can give me advice on rasing fry.. It will greatly be appreciated.... The only thing I can say now.. if they have really long tails???? <Does the give clue to the possible species>???? I have never seen baby piranha before.. Now I am really excited to have produced my own....


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## SnowCichlid (Jan 10, 2003)

Lets get the P scientist in here, I am sure he can help you the best of us all :smile: ... hope you enjoy again anyhow :smile:


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I have been told that animals of different genus cannot breed sucsessfully or something like that

and then you have a case like breeding a horse to a donkey, you get a mule but the mule is infertile, they are both of equis genus I think but different species, I could be totaly wrong on this one except for the mule being infertile part


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## SnowCichlid (Jan 10, 2003)

ive asked this question before regarding piranhas, there was no 100% answer i believe... everyone has mixed feelings... but if you are regarding cichlids there is full potential there for hybrids... i have seen half cat/rabbit species
and i am a human hybrid as well


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

Breeding pygos to serras is like breedings dogs to cats. not going to happen, on a side not though i wonder if hand stripping could be used to breed Serras or cross breed pygos.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Like I said I am very uncertain as to what happend. I just told you the conditions that occured... Then there were tons of baby fry on the surface... Maybe they are reds, maybe they are golds, maybe they are mixed... The Key factor is that I achieved spawning while the fish were schooling together...


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

The most likely scenario is the spilos spawned. The least likely being inter-mixing, which just doesn't happen. Another thing to consider is the living arrangements, they aren't really co-habitating, spilos are by nature fin eaters and they are just doing what they do best, nip fins. In nature they do not live together in such close quarters and don't shoal together other than being opportunistic. There are other things to consider, pheramones being excreted into the water which can excite the other piranhas, but does not imply inter-mixing, accidental fertilization (transferring water)... Anyways, point being that inter-mixing is not going to be the case (it is not so in the wild nor in the home aquarium), there are several other possibilities, some more likely than others of course.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

You are very true Neoplasia.. I truely belive this forced to co-exist together would never ever happen in the wild. I am just real curious, and probably over excited about my first spawning ever... I am new to piranha collecting.. I have been collecting for less than 2 years and have 14 species of piranhas now... I did some really unorthadox thing with my red and gold school. The golds do still hover over the reds, and snatch pieces of fin periodically..... But for the most, I belive I have got them to school... They eat beefheart together, and the kicker.... <I have fed them large rats> The reds and golds take the rat out as a team.....I have feed them mice, baby chicks, steaks, chopped beef heart, pollack fish, and shrimp... For some reason they act together when feeding, they swimm in a mass together... That is the only reason I belive I have got them to school together.... The way they kill live rats is deffinately team work.... Kinda dangerous.. I have had the rats do occasional bits to the Piranha, but no eyes, or anything that didn't regenerate...But hey, the rat is just doing the only think It can for self preservations.....That is the most unique think I have ever seen in my life. Once they get the rat under water, they kinda form a ball around it.. Eat, eat, and eat...... Bones and all..... I do huge waterchages daily, so the 50% water change after the rat feeding isn't uncommon the the fish, they are accustomed to 30-50% waterchanges at least 2 times a week....


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

I wouldnt recommend feeding rats to them. Can you post pictures of your shoal?


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Here are some pics of my golds and Reds together.. These pictures are 7 months old... This is when I first introduced the golds... I am getting my newest pictures ASAP.... I don't have a digital cam.. I borrow the one from work...I do have regular photo's too... I will have a clear pic of the Coliny as it exists today.... <Monday Evening>... I got pics of the Fry on top of the water too.... Pics are on a Floppy @ my job.. I am searching all my piranha pics for more current pics for you.. I also have a single pick of the gold.. Maybe you can verify the species??? Gibbus/Spilo????


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

OMG.. It looks like they are @ it again.. I have been watching them for 2 hours. There is a gold and red both face down tail up kinda pecking,< possibly building a nest> Neither fish let's anything near them.... I will watch this time.... I am getting a camera ASAP.. I want to photograph and document this... They got so violent toward the other fish I had to remove a gold.... He really got beat up, and then all the fish were chasing him, bitting tail, and fins...

I have done a little research on pygos, and serrasalmus. I have seen there is a difference in the rows of teeth on the bottom jaw... This makes me wonder if the genetics are able to mix????< I don't think you can mix a salmon and a shark







> Like I said my fry I have now, I have no idea how they were produced... But I'm not taking my eye off these fish now....

Does anyone know if they have ever inter-breed before??? If so could you post a sight, or name and author of a book with documentation???????


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> serrasalmus_collector Posted on Apr 26 2003, 11:28 PM ...
> Does anyone know if they have ever inter-breed before??? If so could you post a sight, or name and author of a book with documentation???????


You could try piranha.org, they had some science fiction information there about having S. niger DNK. Guclu was magnificient for creating fantastic assersions without evidence.

But to directly answer you, no they do not inter-breed. I seem to recall this was already answered several other times before with the same answer to the same question.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> serrasalmus_collector Posted on Apr 26 2003, 11:28 PM ..
> I have done a little research on pygos, and serrasalmus. I have seen there is a difference in the rows of teeth on the bottom jaw


.

Don't confuse tooth structure for inter-breeding. Piranas develop specialized teeth based on type of diet and the ecological niche they inhabit.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Now that is very interesting... Thanks for the information.... Dropping knowledge on me; increasing my intellengance on piranha, will make my collecting and breeding experiences much more rewarding..... 
Developing a tooth structure based off diet and environment is the most unique thing I have heard about piranhas in a long time.... I'm not gonna talk about the inter-breeding anymore.... I will raise the fry and post picture when they are large enough to identify..... I kept saying I didn't know what they were, reds, golds or a mix... The one thing I do know to be fact, they can shoal, hunt, and spawn together, in a realtively small environment.... Since I have finally acheived a spawn, I'm gonna experiment with my diamond <red throated spilopleura/ complex> species next..... If am I successfull I will sell the fry cheap...
Many people say I don't have the shaoling together, but when I feed them large rats, they attack and subdue the animal with a team effort.. and there must have been some form of comfort in the envorionment for one of the species if not both to spawn.... All my add/ons to this topic will be found in Husbandry..


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> serrasalmus_collector Posted on Apr 27 2003, 12:58 PM .... The one thing I do know to be fact, they can shoal, hunt, and spawn together, in a realtively small environment....


 You are making a gross assumption based on your limited experience on piranas (I'm going by your PM about your experience level). Don't assume because in your aquario things appear normal when it reality, you have been simply lucky. Luck doesn't hold out in the long run given these fishes natural behavior to be cannibalistic. And that is a fact.



> Developing a tooth structure based off diet and environment is the most unique thing I have heard about piranhas in a long time....


. It may be unique to you, but has been known to science for a number of years. Glad this information is helping you.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Well thanks for the information.... I just don't understand why they hunt large prey together... Maybe I just got lucky.. Maybe they don't know any better.. I have had both my golds, and reds since they were the size of dime.......Maybe they have been brainwashed... this can be done with people.. Flashing lights and repeatedly saying the same thing... It could be something they don't even believe in.. But through repetition the mind will start to accept fantasy as fact...... Maybe this has been do to my shoal.. I did do some unorthadox things with these fish.....I have also looked into your comment on my golds... The 3 spilo's I know to be spilo's have a much different adipose fin than these with my red school... That is why I posted for identification... The actual scientific name of these golds I have is very critical to my studies....They lack the clear terminating band on the tail fin... It is dark brown to black.. over 1/4 inch and runs al the way to the end of the tail....Wish I were a millionare.. I would submit one for genitic testing just to be 100% sure what it is...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> serrasalmus_collector Posted on Apr 27 2003, 08:29 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Well thanks for the information.... I just don't understand why they hunt large prey together... Maybe I just got lucky.. Maybe they don't know any better.. I have had both my golds, and reds since they were the size of dime.......Maybe they have been brainwashed... this can be done with people.. Flashing lights and repeatedly saying the same thing... It could be something they don't even believe in.. But through repetition the mind will start to accept fantasy as fact...... Maybe this has been do to my shoal.. I did do some unorthadox things with these fish.....I have also looked into your comment on my golds... The 3 spilo's I know to be spilo's have a much different adipose fin than these with my red school... That is why I posted for identification... The actual scientific name of these golds I have is very critical to my studies....They lack the clear terminating band on the tail fin... It is dark brown to black.. over 1/4 inch and runs al the way to the end of the tail....Wish I were a millionare.. I would submit one for genitic testing just to be 100% sure what it is...


Perhaps Sir Nathan III can give you input on some of your ideas.

Good luck.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

so how did the spilo/red belly breeding go?


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Innes said:


> so how did the spilo/red belly breeding go?


 I had a terrible atrocity happen then. My ex stole everything I owned, and had the electric turned off, so I couldn't turn it back on. I lost all my fry, and was forced to sell 90% of my serrasalmus species for dirt cheap. It was either sell them or watch them die. I was under shock of losing everything, and my fish weren't my number 1 priority. Jim the owner of Piranha Cove, and breeder of Cariba, saw my fry. He is a member here, and his words are truthful. He saw my colony, and tanks full of fry.

The reds all died a tragic death. My 2 large Piraya also died a tragic death. I was too stubborn to sell my colony. I didn't have any piranha friends then. I sincerely wish I knew the fish catcher then. He has told me he would have taken my fish, and rented me some tank space until I got my housing situated. I try not to think of last year. It was very painful to me, and my interest in the piranha hobby.

The Atrocity happened May 3, 2003. Not to long after my post. I also have a police report verifying some of my fish poisoned my methods I do not know.

I have come a long way since then, and learned a lot. I still continue to explore the mixed shoals of serrasalmus species, and breeding. I do often wonder if that was my ticket to being a great collector, and having a remarkable contribution to the hobby. But all those fish are long gone. Those memories make me glassy eyed. I miss my old fish&#8230;

I remember that post... he he he. Do you guys still think it's luck??? If so it hasn't run out yet.


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## armac (Nov 28, 2002)

bringing back a thread a year later? Innes you must have been looking wayyyy back


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

armac said:


> bringing back a thread a year later? Innes you must have been looking wayyyy back


 Is there any reason my threads from a year back are being brought back??? Does this have anything to do with I can't edit my posts, yet others here can???

I am very curious.

If it is meaningless, then I guess a little paranoia is ok. I have been asking for months about why I can't edit threads. There was never a reply. It happened when the spilo/macculatus forum was removed. I could truly care less about the removed forum, but having to post again because of a typo isn't fun.


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