# elTwitcho's 40g planted tank journal



## elTwitcho

Hey guys, I thought I'd start up a tank journal to give you guys an idea of how easy planted tanks may or may not be. I'll keep things up to date with what fertilizer I'm using, light schedules, blah blah blah and hopefully, we'll see my tank blossom into something really nice. If it fails, well you guys have got front row seats









Here it is on day 1 of using proper lighting. Lights are provided by 4 32w T8 fluorescent bulbs, full spectrium "daylight" bulbs. As in, the kind that only cost 2.50 each and not the 30 dollar rip off lfs bulbs. Light schedule is on for 5 hours in the morning, off for 3, then on again for 6 hours. The rationale behind the break in lighting is for algae fighting purposes. I've heard that algae take awhile to start photosynthesis while plants are pretty fast to start, by limiting the length of light algae should never really get a chance to start photosynthesizing and *should* die off. As an added bonus, since I am not using CO2 the CO2 levels will get a little while to recharge in my tank.

Fertilization is currently some "plant gro iron supplement" which is IMO inadequate. I have a much better solution on the way that appears to be stuck in Canadian Customs (fuckers).

Plants are vallisneria on the left, crytocorne in front left, echinodrus in front middle, anubais coffefolia in front right. IN back it is some sort of hygrophila on left of driftwood, java ferns behind it, hygrophila on right and pygmy chain swords off to the right. As you can see, the hygrophila on the left and the chainswords have put out alot of distorted and long leaves because of the low light levels. They should grow a bit more normally in the next little while. As well, I'm probably going to trim the top off the hygrophila on the left so some better growth can come in. The valls are constantly being clipped by my rhom, which means the rest of the leaf he bit off slowly dies. I'm probably going to remove them in the near future.


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## shoe997bed263

all those plants would be considered low light plants right?


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## elTwitcho

moderate light I would say. Most of em were a bit scraggly in low light. I was running 1.5 wpg for a little while and as you can see, the hygrophila is looking VERY scraggly. The anubias, cryptocorne, java fern, vallisneria and chain sword will do ok in low light, but the hygrophila I think need 2 wpg or they grow scraggly, and the echinodrus seemed to do crappy until I went to 2 wpg on my old tank as well. The chain sword does ok in lower lighting, but grows very long as opposed to tight how it should.


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## Death in #'s

thats a great rwad
and all those plants are easy accesible
i cant wait to see what the future holds


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## elTwitcho

It will look much better within the next few months, so I'm hoping it will make for a neat thread where it goes from the current so-so looking tank into a really nice looking one.


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## Gordeez

elTwitcho said:


> *If it fails, well you guys have got front row seats*
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> Here it is on day 1 of using proper lighting. Lights are provided by 4 32w T8 fluorescent bulbs, full spectrium "daylight" bulbs. As in, the kind that only cost 2.50 each and not the 30 dollar rip off lfs bulbs. *Light schedule is on for 5 hours in the morning, off for 3, then on again for 6 hours. The rationale behind the break in lighting is for algae fighting purposes. *I've heard that algae take awhile to start photosynthesis while plants are pretty fast to start, by limiting the length of light algae should never really get a chance to start photosynthesizing and *should* die off. As an added bonus, since I am not using CO2 the CO2 levels will get a little while to recharge in my tank
> [snapback]908696[/snapback]​


If it Fails, WE all get a good Laugh :laugh:

I like the Idear about the lighting, on and off situation.
Im gunna have to try that, My Algae PRoblem is Horrendous. I know I need
more plants, but man, there not cheap.

However, I will be looking forward to your updates on your tank.


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## elTwitcho

Alright guys, the first update in earnest (that was quick eh?)

Did some trimming and here's the current look of the tank









That's the look I'm going to grow the plants out with. Mostly trimmed off the highest hygro shoots and also got rid of the val leaves my rhom bit (he keeps doing that!#@[email protected])










The anubia is having algae issues, but a bit of algae is to be expected while my tank is working it's way towards equilibrium. I'll brush it off occasionally but I'm not too concerned as it will go away in time and should cut back tremendously when I get my fertilizer mix.









The cryptocorne and echinodrus (I think that's what it is) are doing very well though. One leaf on the echinodrus is a little mangled that I apparently missed during pruning. That'll be taken care of next time









This is one of my hygros, the first that got me started on my love affair with the plant. I'll explain a bit more shortly, but this thing just grows in nice and thick and looks great. As well, because of the fast growth, with proper nutrients and lighting it will suck up anything algae would use to grow.









Here is the other hygro. This one grows even faster than the last. I don't remember the proper name, so I'm calling it "pot leaf hygro" because it reminds me of... potted plants

















Now THIS is why I really love hygros. This was a stem with two leafs that I just stuck in the gravel 6 days ago. I'm moving it to another part of the tank because I hadn't realized how easy this plant was to propagate. But it took off like a weed, it sprouted roots at the break, and grew taller with more leaves. 6 days ago it was 2 leafs and 2 inches of stem, now look at it.









If you've never seen Java fern reproduce, it is f*cking WEIRD! The young plants just grow right out the side of the mother plants. Soon as I get some fishing line I'm going to attach these plants to the driftwood in the right of the tank and throw out the bigger mother plants.









This is another crazy plant that will reproduce like nuts. Within a week of putting it in my old tank it had sent out a runner which became all the plants you see today. I highlighted the runner in red to illustrate, it has become something like 5 or 6 plants and the tip looks like it's going to become a new plant entirely. I'm going to use these guys for a carpet like effect in the right of the tank as they will grow in a bit tighter and smaller with the increased light level.









And here is my rhom loving his new tank. Funny thing with him, is his last tank had 2wpg lighting, and for a while this tank had 1.5 . He didn't seem to settle as quickly as before and I felt worried and torn putting 3wpg on his tank as I was terrified I'd stress him to hell and back. Strangely, I think he likes light, he's calmy swimming all over the tank and back to the front of the glass anytime I get close. Basically, back to his usual self, and he was only moved to the tank two weeks ago. I'm blessed to have a fish this great, hence why I gave him the plants










And for those going "didn't you break your lense" it's still broken







I still have my 50mm lense but that's only really useful for fish and in limited situations, hence why I'm still very upset about the other lense getting busted.

Comments are appreciated, and even advice too as I've done enough reading to make my head explode but am still learning as far as practical experience is concerned.

Enjoy boys


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## shoe997bed263

hey twitch i have seen some Cryptocoryne at my lfs but it is red. would i need more watts per gallon if the plant is red? you should really get this post pinned or put it in your blog. this is great stuff.


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## steveling

cool looking tank eltwitcho , love the plants and the rhom shot is fantastic mate keep up the good work


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## elTwitcho

shoe997bed263 said:


> hey twitch i have seen some Cryptocoryne at my lfs but it is red. would i need more watts per gallon if the plant is red? you should really get this post pinned or put it in your blog. this is great stuff.
> [snapback]909667[/snapback]​


I'll be updating it often enough that it won't need to be pinned I wouldn't think, and my blog I've commited to doing nothing remotely useful or educational with, so that's out









This is only a guess mind you, but I don't believe red plants need any more watts per gallon than green plants. I have to warn you that I don't have personal experience on this matter but I'm fairly positive the light requirements shouldn't be any different with a red crypt than a green one. The only difference you have to watch out for is your light color, red plants reflect red light, so if your light has a reddish tint to it, the plants will get less light. Your lights seem fairly blue though so I don't think that'd be an issue.

If you can remember the specific name of the cryptocornes your lfs carries, this page will come in handy.


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## shoe997bed263

Fertilization is currently some "plant gro iron supplement" which is IMO inadequate. I have a much better solution on the way that appears to be stuck in Canadian Customs (fuckers).

what are you waiting for what fertilization should i use. i have florite in alll my tanks do i still need to add iron?


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## elTwitcho

I'm using a mix of hydroponics nutrient solution with added Boron for micronutrients mixed with scientific grade Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate and Magnesium Sulfate. I've yet to see how well it works for me but this thread will naturally keep everyone updated.

I'd still add iron to your tank, not all plants uptake nutrients through their roots and I'm a believer in fertilizing both the water column and the substrate. For substrate fertilizing I use Seachem Gravel Bed conditioner tabs.


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## elTwitcho

Minor set back. Just did a water test as I'd heard that higher light levels can drain CO2 to such a high degree that it causes a big jump in ph. Well, the ph of my tank is between 7.4 and 7.8 so it would appear that this is true. Tommorow I will be adding a DIY CO2 mix.


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## skelator

Are you going to keep up with regular water changes/gravel vacs, or cut back so your plants can have more nutrients to absorb?

Also, out of curiousity, what kind of light fixtures are you using for your 4 32w flourescents? I imagine two ordinary shop light fixtures, but it seems the size of the two, back-to-back, would be too large to still open your canopy with, unless your fixtures are extremely thin, or side-by-side... I've considered getting two fixtures, but laying them on my canopy would leave no room for opening or shutting the lid for maintainance, feedings, etc..









Another thought too (you may have already considered), do you have anything in your tank that creates surface aggitation/O2? If so, have you thought of lessening the amount of aggitation, to create less O2, which would leave your water more CO2 abundant? The extra CO2 would be absorbed by your plants during photosynthesis, and the fish's needed O2 would be released by your plants in exchange.

You already answered my last question, which was do you think your Rhom will produce enough CO2 for your plants by himself... But, per your last post, apparently not. Possibly so, if it weren't for the amount of light, but then you would be depriving your plants of their necessary lighting. So in a sense, I guess it's impossible to know for sure, since your lighting drains the fish's CO2 output (which your plants need), but at the same time by lowering your lighting (to make up for some of the CO2 drainage), you would still be depriving your plants...


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## elTwitcho

Still doing regular water changes, no graveul vacuming but water changes are still once per week 30-40 percent. The nutrients are going to come from fertilizer, not fish waste.

They're two regular shoplights, they're narrow enough that I can push them both to the back of the cover and open my lid. When I close it, I just slide them forwards again and reposition them. THey're T8s which because of the narrow bulbs allows for a pretty narrow light fixture.

There is a little surface agitation by the AC300 but it's not a huge issue. The thing being, that surface agitation in a low stocked tank without CO2 isn't an issue. My fish is producing so little CO2 that when the lights come on, the CO2 levels are already basically in balance with the atmosphere and the plants soon drop CO2 levels to a point that there is less in my tank water than there is in the air. I was hoping to set up a powerhead to actually increase surface agitation and exchange O2 for CO2 at the surface, but it's obviously inadequate.

I don't think the rhom will produce enough CO2 for a high light setup. I think in a low light setup the CO2 concentration in the water would be about the same as in the atmosphere and it wouldn't be much of an issue, but in a high light setup I've seen that it's impossible to strike a balance without added CO2.

As an aside, it's not actually fish that produce the majority of CO2 in a tank, its bacteria breaking down waste. However, with just one fish, the bioload is still too small to support alot of CO2 production.


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## PacmanXSA

I know that you just recently purchased the crypt wendtii, however if you've seen new growth on it, how dark are the new leaves? Mine are coming in with a dark purple tint. Just hoping that it's normal and not lack of lighting!

Excellent thread; I'll be sure to check it out regularly.

Pac


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## yorkshire

Excellent thread 'Mr technical'








keep up the good work


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## William's

nice thread Twitcho ,I am going to come here regulary to check your tank and plants.

greetz

William


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## elTwitcho

Alright, set my tank up with some DIY CO2 using the nyberg yeast method. It's more or less the standard yeast recipe, but with protein added to the mix to sustain the yeast rather than having them slowly starve to death (they need more than sugar to survive). Used a 3 liter bottle instead of two, and upped the mixtures to 150% accordingly.

Used silicone airline tubing from the bottom of the stand running out back and up the backside of the tank









I attached them along the top and running down to a powerhead to keep them out of my rhoms way, so that hopefully he doesn't bite the airline in half. It's expensive tubing, so I'll be not too impressed if he starts chewing on it.









The output of the CO2 is directly beneath my powerhead intake. The rationale behind this is two fold. First, the powerhead will dice up the CO2 bubbles and spit them out as a mist along with a jet of water, this will ensure almost 100% absorbtion of the CO2 into the water. The second reason I did this is because the powerhead is on the same timer as the lights. When the lights go out, the powerhead goes out as well. The bubbles then float harmlessly by and up to the surface. I did this so my CO2 levels don't go all out of wack over night and choke the fish to death. 









My proper fertilizer arrived today as well, so this I'm hoping will be my first week of really good growth. The lights had to be cut for two days before I added my CO2 so my plants are in pretty sad shape at the moment. I imagine they should rebound quite nicely though


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## MR.FREEZ

this is a great thread to follow


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## elTwitcho

Thanks Freez, hopefully it does well enough that everyone watches it become a nicely planted tank, and not a "the road elTwitcho took to switching over to 40 dollars worth of plastic plants"









Almost forgot, Pacman, the leaves are coming in the same color as the rest. If the leaves look healthy, then I wouldn't worry much about the color. They're likely just adjusting to your lighting being different than that at the lfs


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## elTwitcho

Checked it this morning and the powerhead is puffing out a little burst of CO2 about once every second. I'm amazed at how easy the entire thing was, only cost me about 20 bucks as well because I bought the 8 dollar sillicone tubing and had to buy my own yeast, molasses, Jug of water and powdered milk.


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## Gordeez

I saw this On your Pbase site, But didnt Understand.
Now, that I read your Post, I Comprehend!
Good Stuff and GooD Luck!!!


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## elTwitcho

Oi, you actually waded through the mess that is my pbase site? I have to organize it sometime, right now it's such a mess that I don't give the link out


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## elTwitcho

Well guys, I told you I was gonna be honest, so that meant including every mistake I made. While at work I did some thinking. Considering that the yeast would be fermenting and producing CO2 and whatnot, it was likely that the water the yeast was in would be exposed to a fair amount of acidity. Normally, it shouldn't be a problem but then I remembered that I'd used the water that came in the bottle for my yeast mix. That water happened to be Distilled water, which means no buffering capacity, which means sudden ph drop, which means all my yeast are dead.

Woops

This next batch will have baking soda added









EDIT: Ok, there are actually TWO lessons to be learned here.

The first, is that you should add baking soda to your yeast mix.

The SECOND is that you can produce a really neat siphon effect when you unscrew the cap to your yeast bottle and go up the stairs to dump the water. While you're gone, your airline tubing that is still inserted in the tank will suck out lots of water and pour it out through the other end (cap end) inside your tank stand and all over your floor. There was probably a reason the instructions called for a back siphon valve, but there isn't a good reason why I have one sitting next to my yeast bottle that I did not install...


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## elTwitcho

Quick update, using the nyberg yeast method and having it run successfully this time, I just did a test for ph and kh to work out my CO2 and got 18ppm. That, is right in the ideal range, so obviously I'm pretty damn excited. Things are going great, and the swords are taking off like weeds. I'll have pictures tomorrow when they've had another day of growth and believe me, you guys will be surprised


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## Umbilical Syllables

*crosses fingers* come on full tank shot....


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## elTwitcho

Edited to avoid being a useless post

Shoe, it's pretty easy. Use the recipe I provided below, and take a 2 liter or bigger bottle. Cut a hole in the cap, and silicone a piece of aquarium tubing into it. Double up on the silicone since it HAS to be airtight. That's all you need. Remember to add a back siphon valve so water doesn't come back down the tube.


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## shoe997bed263

hey twitch is there a diy article on how to make the co2 system that you have there. how did you make that? thanx


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## elTwitcho

Alright, it's not as impressive as it's gonna be tommorow, the tank looks more or less the same, but the swords are going nuts. I marked with red circles the point where the runners ended in the last photo. Everything beyond that is new plants being rooted. Moreso, the sprouts behind it have all blossomed very nicely.

BUT there's more, as I told you guys, the CO2 is working fabulously. I calculated my CO2 levels using this chart

http://www.aquatic-plants.org/articles/khp...khph_table.html

The recipe I used is as follows

2.5 liters of tank water
1 and 1/8th cup of sugar
3/4 teaspoon of yeast
2 teaspoons of protein mix drink
1 teaspoon of molasses
1 teaspoon baking soda
1 quick prayer this mix doesn't suck like the last one that died after less than 12 hours because the water had no baking soda or carbonate hardness

Why protein mix? Because yeast need protein to form the enzymes they need to survive. Without protein, they gradually die off and you see a constant decrease in CO2 production and get inconsistent levels. This supposedly will keep the yeast alive so that when refilling my reactor I won't even need to add more yeast, just sugar and the other crap. Powdered skim milk mix will also work in the absence of protein drink mix

Why baking soda? To stabilize the ph

Why molasses? Because the recipe called for it and I didn't see a reason not to add it









But wait, there's even more!

I was gonna keep this under wraps and have an unfair advantage over everyone, but I'm feelin nice so I'll let you guys in on my secret. Very few fertilizers contain everything you need. Most are Iron and water, without any stuff like Boron, Copper, Calcium, and the other things plants need. This site allows you to order a trace mixture for all your micronutrients and then mix your macronutrients (Potassium and Nitrate) in with it to make your own fertilizer. Other stuff will work, this stuff allows you to get into exactly what your plants need. You can order the "PMDD premix" for a basic fertilizer that while not custom tailored to what you need, will have everything you could ask for, just not in custom amounts (ie if you find your plants are eating alot of nitrate and want to add more).

Here you go http://gregwatson.com/ Greg was a great person to deal with, he's as helpful as can be. If you could, and you do order from him, please tell him Richard Smith sent you because I want him to see that I appreciate the help he offered and got more people coming his way.

And hold on now, there's even more useful crap to add to this post. You're probably wondering "twitcho, how the hell are you figuring out how much fertilizer to add?" You're probably picturing water tests and calculators and whatnot, but f*ck water tests, it's easier than that. You basically take a rough guestimate of how much fertilizer you think should work (I do 1 teaspoon of my mix that I accidentally made double strong, so it's two teaspoons) dosed twice a week. Once after water changes, and once in the middle of the week. Then, once per week you do a 50% water change. The 50% water change means it is physically impossible for your nutrient levels to go over double what you've dosed, and the levels will only get near double if your plants are not using any nutrients (ie they are dead). Now I'm of the opinion that a bit of extra fertilizer is better than a bit less fertilizer, and alot of my reading supports this. Algae feeds primarily off phosphates. A bit of extra iron will not contribute to algae. A little bit of extra nitrate will not really contribute to algae either. Phosphates do. With a bit of extra fertilizer in the water you are assured that your plants have everything they need, and they can eat up what algae would need to survive as well. So what do you end up with?

2 doses of fertilizer a week, no need to ever test water (for fertilizer) and no algae. As long as you're commited to doing a 50% water change each week (not the most convenient thing for tanks over 75 gallons, but if you can swing it you'll be glad you can) this stuff is easy as hell.

As for my tank, since adding fertilizer and CO2 the algea growth has stopped dead. The first day I tried my tank lights on at 3wpg I got a thick coating of brown crap on my glass. I wiped it off and added fertilizer and CO2 that night. The parts I cleaned are still spotless and the little bit that I missed hasn't gotten any worse. This method is definately working for me, so I hope you guys are up to speed on what I'm doing and consider giving it a shot yourselves


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## Scolopendra

Nice elTwitcho...








Ill be trying your method out.....so have lawyers on hand







...jk, but i really am going to try the DYI CO2. What kind of lights are you using?


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## elTwitcho

4 32W T8 Philips Natural Sunshine bulbs

I know they're working out well because just before the lights went out there was a stream of oxygen bubbles coming from some of my plants, that's some serious photosynthesis right there


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## compton ass steve

looking good twitch.


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## elTwitcho

NOW, it's startin to look pretty good


















First off the mystery plant that I think might be an echinodrus. As you can see, it's doing well but not only that, it's sent out a runner and I'm gonna have another one soon. It's a pretty cool plant, but damn, I'm going to run out of places to put all these stupid things, my fish needs to swim (though he doesn't seem to mind crashing through things)
View attachment 51789


My hygrophila that looks like pot I decided to move to the very back of the tank instead of the side of the driftwood. Reason being that it kept getting sucked into the powerhead slipstream of getting all bent over and messed up. In a little less current, it's becoming alot more organized and nicer looking.
View attachment 51790


The pygmy chain swords continue to reproduce at a ridiculous rate, and I think I'll have a nice carpet set up in short order
View attachment 51791


And THIS, is really cool. At first it looks like a regular shot of my cryptocorne (which is doing quite nicely) and mystery plant but there are two bubbles in the shot. I even highlighted them. Ok, so what, right? Well guess where those bubbles came from... my mystery plant! The plants are actually photosynthesizing so quickly that bubbles of pure oxygen are coming out of them. You can see some on the underside of my cryptocorne as well. Pretty soon the fish room is going to have to be smoke free








View attachment 51792


Now here, here I'm finally realizing what I wanted to do with this thread. Guess what I've done since the last update? Nothing. I ran the algae scraper over the front of my glass very briefly, I tied some java fern plantlets to my driftwood (no pics until it looks at least semi-presentable, it looks AWFUL right now) but have I done any water tests to make sure my nutrients are just right? Nope, already covered that I don't need to water test. Have I adjusted my CO2 injector? Nope, it's pretty self sustaining for at least the next little while. Have I had to do ANYTHING to keep the plants looking healthy? Not a damn thing. Why? Because this stuff is actually pretty easy despite my tank being supposedly in the high demand category (lots of light and CO2) this is turning out to be a cinch. So please, go buy some plants, get some fertilizer, some shoplights for 20 bucks, set up some CO2 and it's EASY to have a great looking tank that will keep your fish healthy as can be.


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## DiPpY eGgS

Hi elTwitcho,







I love this site and all the info on it so much, my 2-8" RBP's are going to love me alot more than they do now!! 
~~First off, I want to say that I am a total NOOB with aquatic plants, and I dont have alot of technical knowledge... After 1 day reading your thread about planting your fish tank, I went out today and got a bunch of plants, and got the CO2 thinggamajig. HA!! (thanks for the inspiration!) I have some questions tho... hopefully you can tell me what I need, and do. 
*Ahem* (don't laugh! jk) ...I have a 75g tank, a Tetra-tec PF500, a 40w coralife 50/50, another 40w bulb, (each in perfecto housing) and the CO2 contraption. Do I need to get more lighting? (dont have much room w/ the 2 perfecto lights) Do I even need the CO2 at this point? I read that link for reading CO2 levels in your tank and didn't know how to get a KH reading to figure it!! LOL!! 
There is a hydroponic store not far from here.. would I possibly be able to get fertilizer for my plants there, and if so, what do I get? I am only using at this point Flourish water conditioner. (mind you, i got the plants 2day) Any help you can trow at me would be greatly... appreciated! Thanks alot! I will post some pics after you help me get "rooted!" (ugh)


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## elTwitcho

DiPpY eGgS said:


> *Ahem* (don't laugh! jk) ...I have a 75g tank, a Tetra-tec PF500, a 40w coralife 50/50, another 40w bulb, (each in perfecto housing) and the CO2 contraption. Do I need to get more lighting? (dont have much room w/ the 2 perfecto lights) Do I even need the CO2 at this point? I read that link for reading CO2 levels in your tank and didn't know how to get a KH reading to figure it!! LOL!!
> There is a hydroponic store not far from here.. would I possibly be able to get fertilizer for my plants there, and if so, what do I get? I am only using at this point Flourish water conditioner. (mind you, i got the plants 2day) Any help you can trow at me would be greatly... appreciated! Thanks alot! I will post some pics after you help me get "rooted!" (ugh)
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Welcome to the site, and plant keeping. Sounds like you're off to a good start on your setup.

I'm not really familiar with coralife bulbs (as you can see, I'm on a budget and try and get as much as I can from places like Home Depot) but what are the 50/50 bulbs? I've never heard of them so they may or may not be that good for growing plants.

As for light intensity, I think 80 watts of light is pretty low for my tastes, but there are some plants you could try on very low light level that would work, here's a quick overview for you (click me). See if that works for you, otherwise you might need some more lighting.

At these light levels though, your plants aren't really photosynthesizing fast enough that they need any more CO2 than what's already in the water. CO2 couldn't hurt (well, assuming you aren't injecting so much that you kill your fish that is) but I don't think it's going to make much difference either.

To get your KH reading, you need a KH test kit. I think it's a useful thing to have personally, even for non planted tanks it lets you know how well your water can resist a change in ph which is important to know, but not something you'd really have to check regularly. When you get the test kit, you basically add one drop of solution into the tube of tank water until the solution turns yellow. When it turns yellow, you count the number of drops you've added. If you've added 5, your KH is 5ppm. If you added 8 your kh is 8ppm. You get the idea.

You can get fertilizer from a hydroponics store, but you need to buy in quantities much larger than you need. If you want to use a very complete fertilizer, order the "PMDD Pre-Mix" from www.gregwatson.com, it's what I'm using and it works great. One pound of dry mix will last you over a year.

If you have any other stuff you need help on, feel free to pm me, or start another thread in the forum and I'll help you there. I don't mind you posting your question in this thread, but I have trouble enough keeping it uncluttered on my own without having to answer too much stuff from other people as well. It's not a big deal, just something I'd appreciate for any other help you might need.

And definately get those pictures up once you get everything worked out, I'm always excited to see piranha keepers going planted, it's much healthier for the fish after all


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## Gordeez

elTwitcho said:


> Oi, you actually waded through the mess that is my pbase site? I have to organize it sometime, right now it's such a mess that I don't give the link out
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Got you on the Favs, So whenever you post something, that mofo shows up ontop of the list, and check it out.
Im pretty good at shifting through the site...


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## elTwitcho

Holy freakin crap, since the last update, it's been reproduction city with my plants. I snipped the two runners going on my pygmy chain swords because I thought I had a nice dense little patch going. Guess what I notice today?

View attachment 52211


Runner freakin city! I count seven just in this picture









However, it's given me a neat idea for my red belly tank. I think I'm gonna eventually put a ton of lighting on that tank, CO2 same deal, and just put in a few pygmy chain swords. Then, leave it alone completely and let it grow free. WIthin a month, it should be a solid carpet, I think it'd be pretty cool.

The echinodrus is also sending out a runner, but it's behind the crypt and I couldn't get a good shot.

Oh but that's not all, my vals are sending out runners too

View attachment 52212


However, I just don't like the way the leftmost hygrophila is growing. It's still looking scraggly, I think it's blocking out it's own light at the lower levels, and I just don't like how it's looking. I think I'm going to axe this stupid thing for something else, I just don't know what.

View attachment 52213


Nonetheless, the whole tank is looking nice. Gonna be moved around a smidgeon though, definately gonna lose the hygro on the left. My rhom isn't bugging my vals lately, so maybe I'll fill that corner in with that

View attachment 52214


And this, well this is just a neat shot









View attachment 52215


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## Scolopendra

very nice....








Hopefully i get some nice growth like that outta my system.....though its only been like 4 days i could have sworn it was at least a week....i think hunting for the right size/kind of P is making time crawl. Anywho i love this thread...one of my two most watched!


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## carisma02uk

that is looking awsome twitch mate nice one...
i cant wait to start my new 60gall planted,
yeah baby....


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## elTwitcho

Well, I can confirm that high plant growth will control algae, as I've just experienced what happens when plant growth slows down. Inexplicably, my CO2 production dropped off yet again. I think my water is too soft and my ph keeps crashing in the yeast mix causing my yeast to die off. I don't have any baking soda around, and when I sent the girlfriend out to grab some she came back with baking powder. However, ten days is awful short for CO2 production so I'm thinking it has to be a ph crash related issue.

Point being, as soon as the CO2 stopped, the plants slowed way down, and algae went insane in the tank. Scrubbed it all off and remade a batch of CO2 and things should be back to normal. I'm definately going to go pressurized soon though, this yeast stuff is annoying.


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## antreas21

it looks nice but i dont think these are enough plants to control algae.if you add more stem plants that are fast growers you will be able to control algae.check your co2 levels.the normal for planted tanks should be 20ppm.low ph is result of high co2 in the tank.and i see you have brown algae in the anubias.its better to take it out and clean it with your fingers or remove it.good luck.


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## elTwitcho

Yeah I monitor my CO2 levels, 18ppm as mentioned in the thread.

And refer to my last post regarding algae control. It quite honestly worked great up until the moment my CO2 kicked out, so considering that I'd seen almost no algae growth until the CO2 stopped and then had an explosion of algae I'd venture a cause and effect relationship exists and that my plants are doing a fine job of keeping things in check.


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## antreas21

i had same problems too and the only way to get rid of it is to get high co2 levels.and you need to add some pottasium since you have some yellow leaves there.but your best choice is to add more fast growers in the tank.


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## elTwitcho

Yellow leaves on which? The hygro in the left is gonna go anyway but I believe that's the color it comes in. The echinodrus with the yellow leaf is just how the leaf grows in, it's since gone green. If anything else looks yellow it's likely a white balancing issue on the camera as they're green in person.

As for fast growers, I'm going to be ditching the hygro on the left because it sucks and probably repalcing it with hornwort which should soak up pretty much everything in the tank.


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## antreas21

hornworth will do but your rhom will make your tank amess with that.it will come in pieces in no time.try some cabomba and other low light stem plants.or try java moss.when you need iron or pottasium you can see that on the older leaves.(in the first pic)


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## elTwitcho

antreas21 said:


> hornworth will do but your rhom will make your tank amess with that.it will come in pieces in no time.try some cabomba and other low light stem plants.or try java moss.when you need iron or pottasium you can see that on the older leaves.(in the first pic)
> [snapback]932514[/snapback]​


Ah, first pic the plants were in rough shape but they're getting a pretty complete fertilizer ATM and seem to be thriving.

I might give cabomba a try as well, we'll see what the lfs has.


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## antreas21

looks good.keep up the good work.


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## channafreak

Oh wow... I just stumbled upon this. Keep this going, every other update thread has died quite quickly. That chain sword is fuckin rediculous. Ill have to get some with that growth rate. One thing though, usually if you see a stream of bubbles coming out of your plant it is due to gas escaping from a tear in the plant. I always thought that my crypts were producing oxygen until I found out from plantedtank that it was from tears. Sure enough it always seemed the bubbles were coming from injured places. The real photosynthesis would produce "pearling" on the leaves. Keep this going.


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## shoe997bed263

i agree this is great stuff


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## goodnews

go twitchy! plants are great


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## elTwitcho

Everything except for the hygro on the left is exactly as I want it. Haven't had a chance to replace it though, and I'm still weighing my options. May even go for something red to add some color to the planting.










Not much of an update, but just had to prove that my tank hasn't gone all to hell yet and that things are still a-ok


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## elTwitcho

Just when the setup was maturing, I scrapped it, go figure. The hygro was pissing me off too damn much so I threw the bastard into the garbage. I felt bad considering I'd put time and effort into it, but it was just out of control. Everything got redone, and I realized I need to start doing more drugs because my hobbies are taking up too much of my time and attention









Anyway, the hygro is facing upwards because the wierd plant closes up at night, and the lights had been off for two hours while I let the mulm settle. I'm not sure if it's an improvement visually (comments are hugely appreciated) but it definately affords the rhom alot more swimming space because that big green hygro was mid tank and only left about 6 inches from the front of the glass to it's leaves due to how it was positioned. I love my plants, but I love my fish more, so I'm doing what's in his best interests. Should look alot better when things fill out a bit more and I'm goingto get some anarcharis or maybe rotala on the side to hide the powerhead cord.

Please do offer your thoughts and opinion on the new set up.


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## Sheppard

Wow!
I thought your setup before was really good but i certainly do like the new one.
I think scrapping the hygro was a very wise decision, i just don't think it fit in well with the other plants. also really like the placement of that rock or driftwood(whichever it is) it looks great!

My suggestion, It would be even more visually appealing if you expanded on the idea of hiding the airline tube and also hid your heater as best you could. Maybe you could lower it a bit behind your plants? Just an idea..

Anyways, great tank Twitch and I will be trying the same C02 method you're using very soon.


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## elTwitcho

Sheppard said:


> Wow!
> I thought your setup before was really good but i certainly do like the new one.
> I think scrapping the hygro was a very wise decision, i just don't think it fit in well with the other plants. also really like the placement of that rock or driftwood(whichever it is) it looks great!
> 
> [snapback]938886[/snapback]​


It's a big huge stump of mopani driftwood. I love that stuff, but usually it comes in funny shapes that you can't do anything with. This time it was actually in a useful shape, which shocked the hell outta me







Thanks alot dude, glad someone sees things as I did.



Sheppard said:


> My suggestion, It would be even more visually appealing if you expanded on the idea of hiding the airline tube and also hid your heater as best you could. Maybe you could lower it a bit behind your plants? Just an idea..
> 
> Anyways, great tank Twitch and I will be trying the same C02 method you're using very soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [snapback]938886[/snapback]​


No doubt, and that's why I moved the vals back there. There's currently two plants, and three "plantlets" on runners back there, so when they grow in the heater should be nicely concealed.


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## BigChuckP

Is this thread beat Twitch?


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## elTwitcho

Not at all, my CO2 system died off and I'm in the process of doing a blackout to fight off the algae that sprung up as a result of my CO2 production dropping off. When it's cleared up, I'm going to make another update and a step by step on doing a blackout


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## BigChuckP

elTwitcho said:


> Not at all, my CO2 system died off and I'm in the process of doing a blackout to fight off the algae that sprung up as a result of my CO2 production dropping off. When it's cleared up, I'm going to make another update and a step by step on doing a blackout
> [snapback]963395[/snapback]​


Are you going to go with a co2 bottle type system instead of the mix? Was the mix more of a hassle? Would you recommend just spending the extra dough and set up a diy co2 with a bottle and everything?
Thanks.


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## elTwitcho

Well, if you have the money to spare, I'd go with a pressurized system no doubt about it. The yeast method is stupid and I hate it, but it's really the only option for people not sure if they want to pursue CO2 injection or not. I don't like the method, but I'm certianly not going to suggest people start out with a pressurized system.

At the moment my money is going to other priorities so it will be a little bit before I get the pressurized system I plan on getting. Yeast WILL work, but it isn't something you can neglect checking on every day or you could end up with massive algae blooms due to sub optimal CO2 levels (as happened in my case). So by all means, you can still have just as good a tank runing yeast as pressurized, it just requires much more careful monitoring with yeast.

And I freakin hate having to make a new batch every two weeks


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## carisma02uk

stop moaning twitch you know its all worth it in the end i have one day maybe two days a week (weekends) when all i do is fish stuff but i love the aftermath of all my work...


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## clintard_leonard

so how long does your co2 reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaally last? i havnt gone past 2 days and i even added a piece of turkey lunch meat for protien


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## elTwitcho

Turkey Lunchmeat? Dude, take that out, it's going to rot and give off god knows what other gasses than just CO2, you could very likely kill your fish.

As for how long does it last, not long enough and quite frankly after doing a 100% water change to get rid of the green water I've decided I'm done with the DIY yeast CO2 crap. I'm using fluorish excel liquid carbon (basically a bottled version of carbon that plants can utilize) and will be doing so until I can save up the money for a pressurized cannister CO2 system. It only works out to about 10 bucks a month and while you can do great with yeast CO2, I prefer not to mess with that crap anymore.


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## clintard_leonard

well ive tried many things with the diy co2 as well, theres nothing wrong with the turkey lunch meat it is high in protien and people on another forum told me to do so, so far i cant get the stupid thing to work more than 2 days before becoming a worthless piece of sh*t

Sorry guys, but the diy co2 is absolutely worthless junk, its not practical and a waste of time, and buying a pressurized co2, hahaha f*ck that im not rich


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## BigChuckP

clintard_leonard said:


> well ive tried many things with the diy co2 as well, theres nothing wrong with the turkey lunch meat it is high in protien and people on another forum told me to do so, so far i cant get the stupid thing to work more than 2 days before becoming a worthless piece of sh*t
> 
> Sorry guys, but the diy co2 is absolutely worthless junk, its not practical and a waste of time, and buying a pressurized co2, hahaha f*ck that im not rich
> [snapback]972133[/snapback]​


First of all poultry is full of fat and hormones and your ps will get fat and die prematurely. It will also pollute your tank quite a bit! Remember you are putting something in your pets room, the only one he has and anything that goes in there that pollutes affect your fish directly!
Second of all about the co2, I have heard of many people that have used the yeast co2 thing and had great results and you are the first that I have heard of not getting it to work so I think that it is not a worthless piece of sh*t, you are just doing it wrong...hehe, thats what she said.


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## clintard_leonard

First off, the poultry was going into the co2 bottle not the tank, for the co2 to eat off of, and second of all, everything is sealed and i followed instructions found on this site and i cant get it to puff air for more than 2 days so i have to empty it and redo it every 2 days, which is not practical


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## rbp 4 135

TAKE THE FRIGGING POULTRY OUT. i add nothing but sugar and water and yeast to mine, and it lasted for over a month.


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## clintard_leonard

well i dont know how your doing it, i tried just sugar and water and it barely lasted 24 hours, whats your measurments of everything

AND THE POULTRY IS PROTIEN THAT THE YEAST NEED TO SURVIVE IDIOT


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## spree_rider

clintard_leonard said:


> well i dont know how your doing it, i tried just sugar and water and it barely lasted 24 hours, whats your measurments of everything
> 
> AND THE POULTRY IS PROTIEN THAT THE YEAST NEED TO SURVIVE IDIOT
> [snapback]975440[/snapback]​


the poultry will poison the yeast as it they rot it as its not pure protine, but generates many poisions, 
have you checked the kh of your tapwater, yeast acidifies the water its in and will die without buffering, so you could try adding baking soda, when i did diy co2 it lasted 3wks and i didnt add any protien, just sugar yeast and baking soda.
what is your rate of bubbles, are you putting the co2 direct into your tank or are you using a reactor, 
a reactor will make it last alot longer,
the most common reason for yeast to die is that it creates alcohol as it works, when the alcohol gets above 5% the yeast dies, if you get brewers yeast it goes to about 10% wine yeast to 20% and champaign yeast will go over 30% alcohol before it dies,
i bet its your tapwater has a low kh so try the baking soda
and for god sakes get the turkey out of the bottle they arent that starved for protien where they need to digest it out of meat.. that will just create toxins and kill the yeast faster. plus the rotting meat will lower the kh even more as it rots and uses up all the buffer.


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## clintard_leonard

Ok, sorry i flipped out i was having a really really bad day,

I took the turkey out, and cleaned the bottle,

I need directions on the exact measurements of everything i need to put in the bottle, and my KH level is 6DH, is that too low or to high?

I have been mixing 4 grams of bakers yeast with 1 tablespoon of sugar in 1 cup of warm yet not hot water that was run through the PUR water purifier, then i filled up the bottle with luke warm water to the top of the label, im getting a lot of bubble after about 2 hours, then they steadily decline untill it just poops out and quits at no more than 2 days.
Any suggestions?
thanks and again im sorry


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## spree_rider

check out this site
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/mont...6/msg00187.html
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/mont...0/msg00456.html
i havent tried this one but have heard it works good
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/mont...2/msg00379.html


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## elTwitcho

clintard_leonard said:


> Ok, sorry i flipped out i was having a really really bad day,
> 
> I took the turkey out, and cleaned the bottle,
> 
> I need directions on the exact measurements of everything i need to put in the bottle, and my KH level is 6DH, is that too low or to high?
> 
> I have been mixing 4 grams of bakers yeast with 1 tablespoon of sugar in 1 cup of warm yet not hot water that was run through the PUR water purifier, then i filled up the bottle with luke warm water to the top of the label, im getting a lot of bubble after about 2 hours, then they steadily decline untill it just poops out and quits at no more than 2 days.
> Any suggestions?
> thanks and again im sorry
> [snapback]976447[/snapback]​


1 tablespoon of sugar in 1 cup of warm water? Your scale is way way way too small and that's your problem.

Mix 1 CUP of sugar with 3/4 teaspoon of yeast in TWO LITERS of warm dechlorinated water. As in your mix should be several times larger than what you're currently doing.


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## channafreak

Oh hell, I used 2 cups sugar for 1/2 a teaspoon of yeast. Usually was pumping one bubble every two seconds and lasted 4 weeks.

But I agree with you twitch. The reason I stopped messing with the fermentation DIY, was because the levels fulctuated so much. I have had people tell me about their algae blooms after they did a DIY CO2. They couldnt keep the levels at a constant ppm.

LOL turkey lunchmeat............... Jesus. Lets get our introductory biology books out from 6th grade boys and girls.


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## icedizzle

Hey twitch I have been readin this thread for a bit now and now seeing how simple it seems I have to decided to fully plant my 65 gal tank. I just went my lfs and bought a few differnet plants to start.

I will have 2 wpg lighting, a DIY CO2 system, and fertilizer in pace by this weekend. Is there anything else I should be doing?

P.S - I still haven't forgiven you for the April fools joke


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## elTwitcho

Nope, sounds good. At 2 wpg your plants won't be too reliant on the CO2 so you won't have to be as stringent about keeping everything in balance as I've had to be, which trust me will be when you're dealing with DIY injection. My advice on your system though would be to use two bottles rather than one, as it's a pretty big tank you're dealing with and two bottles should be just perfect.


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## clintard_leonard

Ok i see what the problem is then, You guys say to use dechlorinated water, will tap water really hurt it that bad cuz that is what i used. I do not want to waste the money on buying dechlor water so is it ok if u use the pur water filter along with some Chlor Out? Chlor out is stuff i bought from walmart to remove chlorine and chemicals when i do water changes, will it kill the yeast?

Thanks


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## TRomP

Update on the tank?

Good read and thanks for donig this man


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## spree_rider

there isnt enough chlorine in normal tapwater, (in mine anyways) to kill anything without longterm exposure like in the water processing plant, i never dechlor my water and have never had a problem since i moved away from a city that uses chloratamines(sp?) to where i am now that just uses chlorine.
chlorine dissapates from water at a suprising rate as long as its not stuck in a pipe or sitting still in a bucket, if there is any currents or bubbles it will dissapate quite rapidly, by the time your bucket is full its usually less than half what it was in the pipes


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## elTwitcho

Things are working out ok, the carpet plants still grow too tall. I replaced the echinodrus tenelus with saggitaria subulata and it's still a bit tallish, but much better than before. There are still two bunches of tenelus in back, which I'll elaborate on later. Tall red plants are ludwigia of some sort, everything else is more or less the same. There's still some playing around to do, but I'm happier with this tank after every change I make, so it's slowly becoming something I can really be proud of.


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## DiPpY eGgS

Hi Twitch, tank looks nice, commin' along quite well... love the ludwiga and the Hygro.. Since I last talked to u, I sold my RBP's to a breeder, (they were getting aggressive near my hand) got amano shrimp, SAE's, otto cats, and neons... (they are still tetras!) -got 220w of PC lighting from AH supply-- I also got a great deal on ebay for a milwaukee Ph controller-regulator kit from gdew25. I also bought a 10lb CO2 tank on ebay from tester837, and got the Greg Watson pre mix. Next time I'm gettin' all the separate ingredients, I'm into this quite heavily at this point. What an excellent hobby this is... I won't post pics on your cool thread, but I got quite a nice carpet of hairgrass, pigmy chain sword, and micro sword goin, Bacopa Carolina is growin crazy- with rose/pink tips, Crypt Wendtii lookin good-nice bronze plant (i think you have 1 of those) I bought 2 bunches of a skinny sagittaria--20 of em now.. things are goin pretty good, battling a little hair, and green spot algea, but seems like it is getting under control. Thanks for sparking my interest!


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## Dr Exum

first... NICE SET-UP

plant newbie here.... so i wanna prune it off if its dead or dying??

where to cut?


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## elTwitcho

Dippy- That's awesome dude, I'd wondered where you disapeared to. Nice to see the tank doing well, although I just can't set up a tank without a centerpiece fish myself









Exum - Usually, yeah. Most of my pruning I do at the point where whatever I'm cutting off meets a larger body/stem. So if I'm cutting a leaf off, I prune where the leaf connects to the main stem. Basically just cut off the dead part, and if you didn't cut enough the rest that you should have cut will slowly die off to let you know


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## DiPpY eGgS

elTwitcho said:


> Dippy- That's awesome dude, I'd wondered where you disapeared to. Nice to see the tank doing well, although I just can't set up a tank without a centerpiece fish myself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [snapback]1025731[/snapback]​


Ya, I've been busy with the tank! I need to put a pic or 2 somewhere in this forum so you can see it.. I'm not that much of an aquascaper yet, but the plants are pretty happy! 
I love your rhom, and I loved my RBP's very much, that is why I made sure I sold them to a breeder, because I know he takes good care of fish.
--But my hand unfortunately was in my tank a little too much for comfort... I was having algea problems and pruning issues.. They were looking at my hand a little funny.. Plus my wife said that she would never help me clean the tank with the P's in it... She helps all the time now!
Hope you keep this thread goin' because I have been monitoring it since it is the thread that got me interested in planted aquariums... interested in how your tank is commin' along.. 
Whatever happened to your Java Ferns? -love those things.. mine are doing great, they are now a part of my driftwood along with some Moss..


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## elTwitcho

Someone else has been using the java fern


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## DiPpY eGgS

Hah! looks like a very happy puffer


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