# ammonia mis-read



## blacklabel (Feb 12, 2007)

my 125s been running for about 3 months now, with the pygos in it for about 2. i cycled it with bio spira. but i have never gotten a reading of 0ppm for ammonia. i went through the nitrite spike and then nitrates, but everytime i test i have 0 nitrite, 20-40 nitrate, and 4-8 ppm ammonia. i do water changes every week and everything else is fine (there is nothing rotting in the filters, ive cleaned them and searched every crevice in them as well as the tank for rotting food but everythings clean). the fish seem fine, no ammonia burn, and good appetite. i think i remember somebody saying something about harmless ammonia. its not a defective test kit because it works fine on a seperate tank i am cycling. if my tank really had 8ppm of ammonia in it, my fish would have been dead months ago, right? or at least some hardcore ammonia burn or some noticable effects. can anyone shed some light on this for me? thanks


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)




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## tiran (Apr 27, 2007)

its funny you say that because i have the same problem and ive been running a 135g tank with 9 pygos with two fx5s,for about 4 to 5 months, i have one of my fx5s filled all the way to the top with biological more than enough bacteria surface and the other one with just sponges together im pushing about 1,400 gph and thats only because with one fx5 packed you get about 600 gph but with the other not packed just its sponges you get about 800gph. And i also do weekely water changes and my ammonia still stays at 8.0 but my fish are fine and also use the same test kit with other tank and it works fine but fish still have a real good eating habits. SO I FEEL YOUR PAIN IM HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM AND WANT TO KNOW SOME ANSWERS


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## ICEE (Feb 3, 2007)

well theirs gotta be something creeating all the ammonia in your tanks

or your just not doing test kit right


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Which conditioner do you use for water changes ?
How many bottles is your ammonia test kit ?
How did you clean the filter without killing off your nitrifying bacteria ?


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## blacklabel (Feb 12, 2007)

Dr. Giggles said:


> Which conditioner do you use for water changes ?
> How many bottles is your ammonia test kit ?
> How did you clean the filter without killing off your nitrifying bacteria ?


stress coat for a while, and now prime. the prime does detoxify ammonia and nitrite, but it says it doesnt interfere with the biological cycle. and since i constantly have nitrates, there is obviously at least some cycling going on. this is what it says on the Prime bottle:

"Prime™ is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime™ removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime™ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank's biofilter. Prime™ may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime™ detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels.Prime™ also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime™ is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime™ will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water."

i realize using prime, maybe my ammonia bacteria isnt built up enough because using the prime reduces it. but keep in mind i have always had the same problem even when using stress coat.

test kit is 2 bottles. its the API Freshwater Master Test Kit, and I am doing the tests properly.

Im running 2 emp400s and 2 xp3s. in the emp400s, i never change the carbon in the filter (im just using it for mechanical) and in the second slots i have the media containers filled with sponge/floss stuff. i clean the carbon and filter floss in a bucket of tank water and never touch the bio wheels. i emptied the filters and checked everywhere for food. i left the biowheels, carbon and media tray in tank water at all times. in the xp3s i did the same, cleaning everything in tank water. there is nothing rotting in the tank...and even if there were, it seems like my bateria would have caught up/adjusted by now.

i want to make clear that i have gone for at least 2 weeks without changing water and using stress coat for dechlorinater (which doesnt detoxify anything but chlorine/chloramines). with two weeks without water changes and 8+ of ammonia, dont you think the fish would have died Dr.? Theve never shown signs of ammonia or acid burn. my PH is always around 6.7. Thanks for your help!


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## ICEE (Feb 3, 2007)

Yes the fish would have died something is wrong with a reading of 8.0 u have to be testing wrong or something rotting IDK what is wromng here


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## plantbrain (Jul 3, 2007)

You assume that the test it is correct.
Many are not.

Testing the kit against a known standard solution over the range of interest is how you double check.
I've seen folks spend $$$, labor, etc over a simple cheapo test kit reading that was never correct to begin with.

Lamotte tend to be good and fairly reliable, but they are not cheap either.
I calibrate every test measure I do.

That way I know rather than assume or guess.
Test kits have issues, many hobbyists assume that they are always correct, which they are not.
Especially for NO3/PO4.

NH4 is even more problematic.
It can be produced and used up by the bacteria faster/before you ever get a chance to measure it in the water column and low residuals can cause fish health problems.

I think large 2x a week 50% water changes, much like discus breeders is a wise approach.
Another method: lots and lots of plants.
Another method: lots of Zeolite.

Zeolite can be recharged easily using NaCl brine to exchange the NH4+ with Na+ and then rinsed and returned to the tank.

It's also pretty cheap.

Plant filters using emergent plants is also a very useful method to clean water, works for sewage, works for marine tanks, can work here also.

Obviously, setting up a hard plumbed or automatic water changer can resolve many trade offs. We are smart folks, so a simple flush of the toilet type of set up (a bit slower perhaps) can resolve most folk's issues with the labor of a arge frequent water change.

I turn a valve to drain, turn another to refill.
No buckets, not hoses all over etc.

Alan has his set to a daily timer and replaces his slowly via 1/4" solenoid valve and electronic float switch for 2-3 hours a day.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## blacklabel (Feb 12, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> You assume that the test it is correct.
> Many are not.
> 
> Testing the kit against a known standard solution over the range of interest is how you double check.
> ...


i assume the test is correct because i use it in a different tank with accurate results.

i have spent the last hour searching this forum for info to help me. i have seen that some 1 bottle tests may be offset by some water conditioners, but my two bottle test is not. some people have mentioned the differences in nh4 and nh3, and i dont exactly know the difference or how it relates to me. i am going to go buy an ammonia detector that goes inside my tank and see if it gives me a different reading. THIS IS GETTING FRUSTRATING. im pretty sure my tank is healthy, and something is giving me a false/irrelevant reading, but if my tank does for some reason have 1 ppm of ammonia i would never know because the test always read 4 - 8+! in another tank it shows an accurate 0ppm. i dont think it is an issue of a faulty test kit or a matter of water changes. something is giving me a false positive on a reliable test kit. thanks for your response


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## barbianj (Aug 3, 2003)

You know that Prime detoxifies ammonia, right? You could easily have 8.0 and healthy fish as long as you continue to use Prime. The right way, of course, is to have healthy bacteria. If ammonia is high, there is ALWAYS a source, assuming the test kit is correct.


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## blacklabel (Feb 12, 2007)

barbianj said:


> You know that Prime detoxifies ammonia, right? You could easily have 8.0 and healthy fish as long as you continue to use Prime. The right way, of course, is to have healthy bacteria. If ammonia is high, there is ALWAYS a source, assuming the test kit is correct.


yes it does detoxify ammonia. for 2 - 3 days. after that its gone. so if my tank was left for two weeks without water changes, and no added prime, there would be ammonia present if my bacteria colony wasnt up to the task. and there wasnt, or my fish would be dead. and in another tank i just finished cycling that i also use prime in, it has always been accurate. ie: detected ammonia spike, then nitrites, then ammonia going down, and now no detectable ammonia.

i put the seachem ammonia detector in my tank and it shows no ammonia. but i also did a 20% water change yesterday with prime, so i will monitor it for the rest of the week without adding anything to the tank or changing water and see if it goes up once the prime wears off.


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## barbianj (Aug 3, 2003)

Then you would have some toxic and detoxified ammonia present in your tank, so not all of the 8.0 present would harm your fish. Your Ph is not too high, so that's also in your favor.

It's very odd that you did only a 20% water change and have no ammonia. I believe with your test kit it would still read with the Prime.

Also, the bacteria should still be able to consume the ammonia after the Prime is added, so if you had a healthy bacteria colony, you should have a low ammonia level with or without the Prime.

Do you have gravel, or a bare bottom tank?


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## blacklabel (Feb 12, 2007)

barbianj said:


> Then you would have some toxic and detoxified ammonia present in your tank, so not all of the 8.0 present would harm your fish. Your Ph is not too high, so that's also in your favor.
> 
> It's very odd that you did only a 20% water change and have no ammonia. I believe with your test kit it would still read with the Prime.
> 
> ...


yeah, it is odd. thats what makes me think my bacteria is healthy and everythings good (plus the fish never showing ammonia burn). i do small water changes to try not and upset the bacteria. my API master test kit, with two bottles for ammonia says that i have 8ppm ammonia, but the seachem ammonia detector that sticks to the inside of the tank with a suction cup says i have no detectable levels. (obviously the seachem isnt the most accurate test, but if there were 8ppm of ammonia im sure it would detect _something_.

i have about 4 inches of sand for substrate. and the API test works properly on a seperate tank that i also use prime in...which makes me think its not the prime that is causing the confusion.


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

The only thing I can suggest is that you take a water sample to the LFS and have them test it. If they confirm the ammonia presence than I would countinue with water changes and the Prime. I would also replace the floss with a sponge because the floss acts only as mechanical, not biological. The sponge would also in the beginning act as a mechanical but in time will have a biological function when the bacteria colonizes in it. I would normally think that the bio wheels and the xp3 would be plenty but somehow it is possible you had a bacteria die off. Anyways, first let the lfs test it, if ammonia confirmed then buy a sponge from them that you could put in that filter (not a cartridge)


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## plantbrain (Jul 3, 2007)

BlackLabel said:


> You assume that the test it is correct.
> Many are not.
> 
> Testing the kit against a known standard solution over the range of interest is how you double check.
> ...


i assume the test is correct because i use it in a different tank with accurate results.

i have spent the last hour searching this forum for info to help me. i have seen that some 1 bottle tests may be offset by some water conditioners, but my two bottle test is not. some people have mentioned the differences in nh4 and nh3, and i dont exactly know the difference or how it relates to me. i am going to go buy an ammonia detector that goes inside my tank and see if it gives me a different reading. THIS IS GETTING FRUSTRATING. im pretty sure my tank is healthy, and something is giving me a false/irrelevant reading, but if my tank does for some reason have 1 ppm of ammonia i would never know because the test always read 4 - 8+! in another tank it shows an accurate 0ppm. i dont think it is an issue of a faulty test kit or a matter of water changes. something is giving me a false positive on a reliable test kit. thanks for your response
[/quote]

Well, that does not imply that it's correct or not.
If you test it against a known standard, then you know.
How do you know that it is indeed accurate?

I don't nor pretend to think I do.
I use reference standards at the lab.
Then I compare the known NH4 concentrations against the test kit over 2-3 ppm levels.

NH4 is also rather ephemeral, test do not always show yo what happened 2-4 days ago and then a week later you have problems, diseases etc.
Unless you are lookign for it, you will/can miss a lot.
The prime etc will bind it, thus making less toxic.
Then bacteria cleave that bond and oxidize the NH4 slowly in the filter over time into NO2/NO3.

That's the meat and taters of it.

You can use zeolite/large water changes to reduce the NH4.
You can also do a 50% water change, then measure the before and after NH4 levels which should be 1/2 if there's no NH4 in the tap water/make up wate.

That will give you an idea if the relative scale is working on the test kit, but absolute concentration.

I've seen many folks get all up in a wad over a test kit reading when everything it doing well in the tank.
If you have a decent sized filter, do large frequent water changes, feed with common sense, I doubt you have an issue.

In any event, doing the above is a wise idea anyway and will provide a better home for the fish whether the tst kit is correct or not. Adding zeolite will help as well. Same deal like the Prime, binds NH4, then bacteria break the bond and use it. The Zeolite eventually get clogged after about a month and becomes bio media.

You may recharge zeolite in a strong brine solution of NaCl which exhcnages Na+ for the NH4+ ions.
This works about 3-4x before it really is no longer that useful to do.

Tthe other thing you might consider is adding water sprite to the tank and let plants remove the NH4 directly.Adding a plant filter to the tank.

So plants, zeolite, good testing, large water changes, all things that will benefit the tank, you can weasel around needing to test or rely heavily on their readings.

I do that for work and sure do not like it as a hobby

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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