# Flowerhorns good or bad?



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I've thought good and bad thoughts and moderate so I thought I could impartially throw this out there...

I see multiple sides to this flowerhorn situation. 
From loss of interest in the real species 
to more colorful fish 
to less pressure on wild populations 
to their culls being introduced into the wild in places
yadda yadda yadda...

....there's a lot to discuss that we really have only sporadically done.

I would also hope that any arguments in other threads could link to this thread instead of repeating themselves and derailing good cichlid/flowerhorn discussions.

Your hybrid thoughts?...

(No bashing here, please, I know there have been some strong feelings about this in the past)


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

great topic, even as a flowerhorn supporter i believe there are some negative aspects to improper breeding. I will outline these after we get some more feed back out and the measures that the flowerhorn community wants to take to limit these negative aspects.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Cool, I was hoping you'd be amenable to this. I think there's 
a bit of confusion about the ethics (the tailless fish, etc.) that 
don't apply to all breeders that could be discussed in detail.

It's okay to glorify these guys or say you hate hybrids, feel
free to opinionate!


----------



## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

flowerhorns have some good points; its not irresponsible fish-- its irresponsible people-- that owe to the dillution of the trimac gene pool. I just am not one for oversized humps.


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

hmm here is what we need to know before we start:

There are many fish that can hybridize together. This can be achieved with varios cichlids. If you were to breed a trimac with a midas is it a flowerhorn? no its not. The process of making these fish took many years. With very few exception, the only types of flowehorn being sold in any lfs nationwide were bred by a hobbyist in their basement. When this type of breeding is done by hobbyist they sell the entire stock of fry. This dumping is similiar to what almost killed the hobby in asia. Males that are used in breeding are of a quality that is unimaginable as far as the color, markings and shape. People think that the fish they buy for $30 is going to look just like this when that is not the case at all. Its the greedy people who dont love the fish for what they are and only care about the profit that use a fancy name and a picture to sell a fish that will never look anything like the one shown.

To combay this flowehornusa was created, which is an organization of sellers that are held to the highest ethical standards. We are trying to get the message out to people who are intrested in the fish that if they want to save the hassle of being ripped off and disapointed, dont make the mistake of going to counterfeit sellers. We have a list of sellers that are commiting fish fraud on the website.

Generally the practice is to sell fish at a size no smaller then 3". This is because the plum markings on the fish fade as the fish reaches this size. At a young age they all appear like they have AAA grade markings. If the fish doesnt have the marks to the gill plate when its 3" or it doesnt have anything else that stands out about it then its simple not woth growing out.

The flowerhorn is a Feng Shui fish because it represents the power of mountains in its might head. There are various points of the fish that should be present. It has now become the good luck fish for the next period of 20 years because of the increasing rarity of the asian arowana.

In order to isolate the traits that people find desirable ill go through the process that i plan on goign through when i being breeing

After the fry are born they will be put into dark 300 gallon ponds and grown out to a size of .5". At this size ill use jewelers glasses to vent the fish and toss all the females i can identify unless they are spectatuclar.. those extra nices ones will be moved to a seperate tank. All males that are not up to par will be tossed as well. The rest will be grown out another inch and checked again. The process repeats itself untill a group of 10 or fewer specimens is left out of the 2000 that were born. The 10 remaining are now ready to be sold in the $200-500 range depending on the quality. Quality pricing speaks for itself. A fish doesnt cost $1000 because its a rip off price.. it costs that much because out of 10,000 some fry born its the only one that is that nice.


----------



## luva40 (Jan 5, 2003)

That is a great explanation Pose. Although I haven't shelled out the big bucks for a pure FH, I have 3 3"'ers that I got from lfs that are alright. I will only keep the best one of coarse. I also aquired an 7-8" er for free that has an eye popped due to injury. It was sold to my lfs for $75 and looks like a Golden. I think he is awesome and really interacts with me even if he is a mutt and doesn't develope a huge kok. The personality is what counts with me, even though I plan on ordering a Rainbow Blue Dragon.

Kevin


----------



## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

i think they are good if you ahve the money to get one :smile:

but if you cant get one then you have to not like all of the people who have them

weird huh

but i think that there are more pov's then neg's


----------



## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

Hehe, you should've had the "Yea" or "Nay" and "Which one means yes?" options.

I like flowerhorns. I am an ardent supporter of Flowerhorns, even though I have a mutt and not a high grade FH. However, I have to agree with p45. Fh's like mine do dilute the Trimac gene pool thus slowly ebbing out an entire species. To me, all things should be done in moderation. Extremes are bad...extreme heat and extreme cold can hhurt a person and extreme breeding can hurt a population of fish. I know I'm not presenting my view very clearly due to the medicine(non drowsy my ass) but to sum it up I believe that although flowerhorns are a bautiful fish, they should be bred in moderation or rather in periods. Perhaps the first six months of a year FH's are bred and the trimacs and other cichlids used to breed them should be let go into the world to re populate the wild then after this six month period perhaps you can capture some more cichlids and repaeating the cycle...I dunno, that's just me though.


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

I like dealing with a flowerhorn broker... i would never make a purchase over $100 without one. My experience with online sellers has shown me that you get an extact representation of the fish you are getting. You will receive multiple photos of the fish you are receiving, and if you order first you are likely to get the best.. because you have the first selection. The seller will also tell you about the personality. No need for exageration here, because each fish has its high points.. some are super insanely aggressive but might have less pearls or flowers, while others are more beutiful but calmer. You can decide what you like.

If you want to try breeding on your own, thats fine.. but unless you are in a position were you can actually make something good, plan on keeping them all to yourself and killing the rest.


----------



## 74ray (Feb 21, 2003)

I can't stand them. I hate hybrids.


----------



## StuartDanger (Aug 7, 2003)

flowerhorns are beautiful, but i agree with 74ray i hate hybrids. and i hate huge humps on their heads they look gross and spoil the fish.


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

saying no to humps is like saying no to muscles. There is plenty of people out there that would rather sit on the couch then go to the gym, that is their personal preference.. but in flowerhorn keeping you only keep stud males.. not the dime a dozen normal males and all nice quality NWs will have humps.. Green Terrors, Midas, Devil, Festae, Dovii, Peacock Bass. Plus is scientifically proven that females prefer fish with the kok head, not to mention other fish will avoid ones with large heads.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Hmmmm.....

I'm not a big fan of hybrids as a rule, to be honest. The hybrid peacock cichlids from malawi (not the peacock bass) are a shame considering the amazing natural kinds.

I don't know about the muscle analogy







! There are plenty of stunning cichlids that do not and can not have a nuchal hump. And scientifically females do go through a process (in some species) of sexual selection that can go to extremes if unchecked (look up "Fisher's Runaway Hypothesis"). Nature kills such extremes and thus peacock tails only get so long, natural nuchal humps can only get so big, etc.

As for what exactly a flowerhorn is, that still seems a bit confusing. Is it the number of these "flowers"? The nuchal hump? The exact mix of species put into this equation? Is there a true breeding line? Isn't some of the 'looks' environmentally produced as opposed to the genes? Also, is there any messing around with hormoned up fish in this? Seems possible.

And what is the big deal with charging a lot for the best of a brood when CA cichlid broods are typically in the hundreds or even thousands? Many people who breed these cichlids are very frustrated at what to do with so many fry anyway!

The best point made is the release of interest in the Asian Aro, hope that keeps up. If that makes enough of a difference, hell, I may even think of getting a FH!


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

The main thing your looking for with these fish is the shape.. its just like with dog breeds, its the shape that is different... everything else just enhances the shape but the total image is also important.

I went into the pricing. If you searched every corner of the country you couldnt find one Pearls of the Orient that looked like the red on i have, nor could you possibly breed one without investing 1000s of hours and more money then you can imagine. Its just like with asian arowana. FHs do not breed true at all, and it you try to breed two together of the same breed then they turn out awful. Rarity dicates the pricing. Its just like art collecting.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Sounds kind of random.

There's no crossing back? Also, are their better fry from an impressive male and a healthy female or is it just as likely to get a nice fish from any old combination?


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

nope basically the best fish are produced from two completle different strains, in breeding decreases the quality drastically and is avoided as much as possible. Even with that.. the flower markings fluctuate drastically, so only 25% of the 50% of males will actually have AAA flowers which are the only FH that are worht paying money for IMO. so right there your down to 25%, not even considering color or head size and body shape. maybe 10% of that 25% will have a large head. Maybe another 10% have wrap tails maybe another 10% have super short round body. Finding one that has all these characterisitcs is like 1 in 1000. Its like saying every human can be like arnold schwarzanager, how often does one come along?

This is why the quality of Zhen Zhous went down hill, which resulted in crossing ZZs with King Kong parrots. This also makes the males sterile. So close to 75% of male kamfa flowerhorn are sterile, so finding a breeder is super rare now, but their average quality is much much higher as they almost all get huge heads.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Interesting..... wrap tails? And what is done with the hybrids that don't cut it?

How many more deformities are seen in these broods (than, say, a wild Trimac brood)? Is it ethical to even try an breed something where you'll have so many deformed fishes?

Also, how can you combine strains if you can't have a strain to begin with? If you can't cross back within one genetic lineage you can never have a strain. What am I missing here? There must be crossing back to create these strains.


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

you can see that the short body flowerhorns appear exactly like the breeder barred midas that cichlid scene uses, yet non of its children look like it? This shape is a super incredible rarity in nature, so its not a mutation.. nearly a rare shape that has been increased.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Pose, I'm still unclear on most of my questions.
I'm guessing 'wrap tails' is a good thing (tails extending high and low?)
I'm also guessing that there has to be crossing back to create and maintain any strain.
I'd also guess that (and this is normal for any specialty fish) culls are fed to a monster fish or humanely destroyed (still sad! ).
My last guess; there are more deformities with these lineages.

Catch me where I'm wrong. That is interesting where the shape comes from.


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

wrap tails are tails that completely fold over on top of each other and leave no gap like with normal cichlids. Its good to either have these.. or to have super long streamers.. and i mean really long. But the newer fish have dorsal fins which appear pushed forward and are twice the height. The finage has been drastically changed on many of these fish. To me the gap in fins is sort of one of the ugly parts about non pure cichlids.. just doesnt look very good at all once you have seen the ones with the wrap tails that just look like they should be like that.

Normally farms take the fry and place them in lite saltwater and freeze them to kille them slow and painfully.

Strains are nearly impossible to replicate.. once that particular breeding pair is gone its gone completely. If you look at the little genie pictures at fhusa, you can see that almost everyone is unique. The parents are both flawless in ever regard, so it doesnt matter which of the parents traits they inherit.. So there is alot of variety with those fish. Some strains are more stable then others. Ill post the yellow rainbow dragon im picking up today, to my knowledge only, 1% of all the rainbow dragons that are good enough to sell are inheriting this yellow base color that the father has. I believe the process that Flowerfish uses is to cross a new female that is incredible back to her father.. or grandfather to stabalize a strain, but you cant keep doing this. So its very important to keep the lineage of these fish when breeding.

i already have a couple males to breed and just need a female from completely different strains. When they breed, i have an image in my mind what traits of each fish i want the new fry to inherit. I will only select those fish which have those traits, unless another really stands out to me. So its more like manual standaridization. It is not easy, and takes tons of land and employees to do this. 50,000 fry must be raised to produce maybe 800 fish


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Thanks for the great reply!








Nice to hear of such humane culling (for those that hate this, go ahead and raise every offspring of one pair of Oscars or maybe Managuense)

I'm still lost on if there even are any strains but....I guess it's just about keeping certain physical characteristics around and getting random color results.


----------



## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

bdk..my respects...

glad you can share your knowledge about fh with us..


----------



## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

I dont mind them, way better than dyed fish or glow fish....

suprised you didn't have this one in your science forum acestro


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

ahh damnit.. the yellow rainbow dragon is stranded at airborne overnight! Im trying to stay postive about this, buts its part of the tragedy of this hobby in the usa. If this fish isnt alive tommorow, i will have lost another un replacable fish, as there is not other one this color in the country


----------



## OiNkY (Oct 23, 2003)

OH NOO!.

it will be some sh*t if that RBD goes.. it couldve been mines!!!! airbourne go to HELL and BURN!!


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

I know man. this is awful, if this was just ordinary fish.. it would be replaceable, but its just not replaceable and i have already had this happen once with one like that. If the lid is tight, hes got a chance. Im bringing a jug of very hot water with me to airborne, i open the package up there. Best thing is that i had him shipped to the station, so he should be waiting inside once he gets to charelston. i will have been close to 30 hours


----------



## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

keep us posted Px...damn fingers crossed for you..hopefully he's just stressed from being in there...


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

frozen stifff


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

That stinks, sorry for the loss.



> suprised you didn't have this one in your science forum acestro


Actually, if you could move it I think that's a good idea. I just wanted to see what other cichlid forum folk thought first.


----------



## LaZy (Jun 17, 2003)

FH's are pimp fish's to have they look hella nice and very active fish


----------



## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Poseidon X said:


> I know man. this is awful, if this was just ordinary fish.. it would be replaceable, but its just not replaceable and i have already had this happen once with one like that. If the lid is tight, hes got a chance. Im bringing a jug of very hot water with me to airborne, i open the package up there. Best thing is that i had him shipped to the station, so he should be waiting inside once he gets to charelston. i will have been close to 30 hours


 As someone who keeps and breeds a number of fishes that are now Extinct
within there natural range, I feel your pain in losing a irreplacable animal,

I though do not nessesarly cry for it's loss,

Flowerhorns are a novelity and couriousity made more for money than for true
respect in a animal, if you have to cull 999 fish for every one deamed acceptable that truly shows a serious lack of ethical responsability. Thats killing a hell
of alot of animals for no other reason than they do not fit your precieved ideal.
From an evolutionary standpoint that basicly says it needs to be extinct, for
it is a failure as a species.

If the Ideal form costs that much in the form of life, is that truly an animal worthy
of it's existance?

I hate man made animals as they are always nothing really better
than what alreay exists in nature, Nature has much more to offer than our 
pethetic attempts at replicating beauty and form, Flowerhorn are heidious
examples of failed domestication, Only beauty you can find in them is either in
price or pricieved cultural symbolism. Many other Cichlids Kick their ass
on both color and form.

we as humans though always feel the need to
control nature and mold it to us, instead of us molding into and respecting it.


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

I think you lack of respect for their color may have somethign to do with you never seeing a half way decent one in person. The color is in fact so bright, that cameras cannot capture the contrast in their colors.

Yellow bodies covered in green sheen layered by neon blue glowing spots all over the body, which fades into hot pink in the breast area and blinding neon yellow at the face, complete wrapping fan tails. The color is still taking a back seat to the shape issue, the face on other large CAs is just find very unatractive now.. they just are not cute looking, all except V. Synspilium which is a fish i would definately love to own and the most impressive in colors.

They have a million time the amount of glowing areas present on these so called glow fish. Not to mention i dont believe there is a fish in nature that is neon. Sure there may be some little tiny cichlids that are bright, but they are also feeder sized.


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

a great illustration of shape and colors from tail to lips, even at this full grown size the fish looks youthful with its small mouth and oversized finage









The color on the face of this fish matches that of a neon yellow glowstick.. to bright to even show up on camera but the poster is available.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Maybe you'd see more color with a camera with more than 2 megapixels








Just kidding. I think there's a questioning of whether natural beauty is not being appreciated here (or, actually disrespected). It is worth noting that there would be no FH without natural fishes. Sounds obvious, but worth stating.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

> Flowerhorns are a novelity and couriousity made more for money than for true
> respect in a animal, if you have to cull 999 fish for every one deamed acceptable that truly shows a serious lack of ethical responsability. Thats killing a hell
> of alot of animals for no other reason than they do not fit your precieved ideal.
> From an evolutionary standpoint that basicly says it needs to be extinct, for
> it is a failure as a species.


Interesting perspective.


----------



## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Poseidon X said:


> I think you lack of respect for their color may have somethign to do with you never seeing a half way decent one in person. The color is in fact so bright, that cameras cannot capture the contrast in their colors.
> 
> Yellow bodies covered in green sheen layered by neon blue glowing spots all over the body, which fades into hot pink in the breast area and blinding neon yellow at the face, complete wrapping fan tails. The color is still taking a back seat to the shape issue, the face on other large CAs is just find very unatractive now.. they just are not cute looking, all except V. Synspilium which is a fish i would definately love to own and the most impressive in colors.
> 
> They have a million time the amount of glowing areas present on these so called glow fish. Not to mention i dont believe there is a fish in nature that is neon. Sure there may be some little tiny cichlids that are bright, but they are also feeder sized.


Actually I have seen what was deemed as being a "good one"
I have seen a number of them, and I just do not find them as being attractive at
all, thats the nature of personal taste.

I find no problem with you finding these fish attractive, thats your right.
I'm never going to say you are wrong. I will strongly disagree
that they are the point of fishy beauty or perfection though.

In my world though a 3 inch fish franky kicks its ass, colorwise and in form,
some Killifish waste it to all hell, even some quarter inch Livebearers kill
them in regards to pattern and pure beauty and these are natural populations not
Man made simulations.

I do not think you have seen a Poecilia ssp. "Endlers" 
or a Aphyosemion ogonese GHP 80/24 or a Cyprinodon Longidorsalis
(List can go on for some time),
Maybe if you truly have seen one of these fish you would understand my point 
of view and respect these fish as well. Maybe if you saw these fish you would
come to the conclusion that the novelity is not reality and that there truly
are beautifull fishes already worth your time within the natural world,
Why create precieved beauty when it already exists.

Reality is beauty to me I find the fake repulsive this is why I do not respect Flowerhorns, 
(just to stop any BS in it's tracks I'm also very Fancy livebearer
Un-Friendly)

I do not care how much you pretty a turd it is still a turd and smells just as bad.
Thats a Flowerhorn to me


----------



## Kory (Jun 5, 2003)

> I do not care how much you pretty a turd it is still a turd and smells just as bad.
> Thats a Flowerhorn to me


Rofl I like that quote I might have to use it sometime.


----------



## camotekid (Sep 21, 2003)

i think i had the "basement-bred" flower horn. His is so pale pink and has poor markings even though I give him color enhancer pellets. But anyway, I bought it when its still 2 inches out of curiosity. I planned it to give it to my dad sometime in the future or if not, to a chick (who knows no dick about fish) whom i think would appreciate it and have it as a good start.


----------



## lemmywinks (Jan 25, 2004)

i have 2 agree w/ kory. its still a hybrid and you can never change that.


----------



## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

lemmywinks said:


> i have 2 agree w/ kory. its still a hybrid and you can never change that.


Hey now, credit is given to those that earn it,
Kory did not say that I did.

(yes I feel the need to be petty :rasp:
momentary relief from a heavy subject )


----------



## Kory (Jun 5, 2003)

lemmywinks said:


> i have 2 agree w/ kory. its still a hybrid and you can never change that.


 although I agree with what Poly said for the most part the credit is all his.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Although I'm trying to be impartial I think it shows through that I'm
not the biggest fan of hybrids.

Selective breeding has had good sides (livestock, dogs/cats) and was a 
motivating point for Darwin's theory of Natural Selection (pigeon breeders) but a hybrid is still a hybrid.



> Reality is beauty to me


That's what it comes down to for me too, well put.


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

many of the products that we take for granted today are the result of hybridization. take steel for example! you wont find that in nature.. but you benefit from it every day.

I dont like the idea of dying or genetically altering fish. I think thats a completely different issue then unforced selective breeding.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

In a way you are genetically altering them. The hybrids wont occur that way in nature (some hybridization occurs but nothing like this). I think steel is a pretty "out there" example!







Injecting/dyeing is definitely more severe.


----------



## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Poseidon X said:


> many of the products that we take for granted today are the result of hybridization. take steel for example! you wont find that in nature.. but you benefit from it every day.
> 
> I dont like the idea of dying or genetically altering fish. I think thats a completely different issue then unforced selective breeding.


 I benifit from steel because it is usefull and has a purpose,
Such as making Guns, I do benifit from this product.
Guns protect my family and myself.

A flowerhorn is a pointless hybrid and I do not benifit from it at all,
it's novelity and couriosity and not usefull.

Last I knew throwing a flowerhorn at someone threatening me or my family
would not help much. I certinly would not feel safe knowing a flowerhorn was
my only line of defence.

Steel is a bad example man to offer a reason for Hybrid fish.

Dying and genitic altering definitly is a very different issue
This I fully agree.


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

it may not serve a purpose to you, but to many others its a feng shui icon which has just replaced the arowana as the official feng shui fish. If people enjoy them as pets, then they definately have a purpose. I think the biggest novelty is keeping wild animals in glass cages, but thats just my opinion. Keeping piranha is a "novelty".


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

It's interesting how this topic (poll) favored FH in the cichlid forum but is swinging the other way in the scientific forum. Pretty even voting wise, hmmm


----------



## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Poseidon X said:


> it may not serve a purpose to you, but to many others its a feng shui icon which has just replaced the arowana as the official feng shui fish. If people enjoy them as pets, then they definately have a purpose. I think the biggest novelty is keeping wild animals in glass cages, but thats just my opinion. Keeping piranha is a "novelty".


I'm a very open person and someone that does not see anyones culture
or personal beliefs as wrong, But when it has a direct impact on the enviornment,
I get to the point where beliefs mean nothing, Flowerhorns as the new Feng shui,
Is not good for the enviornment, these fish are not in anyway regular in apperance 
or pattern, the Arowana are fairly regular and predictable, we went through 
this eairler, there are a hell of alot of non-important fish being created for every 
one that is considered important, Many of these excess fish are being released
into waters they do not belong, this fish is not Bringing good fortune.
it is bringing ecological disaster and has become a prime source of Bio-pollution,
The facts are already out there and I know you have seen them.

Do not try to tell me "well some are being responsable", Some do not matter if all
are not following.

I could frankly write a book why these fish suck but it's not going to change
your mind and your not going to change mine, we obviously are the two exteme
"other ends of the stick" So circles will continue, I'm leaving now from this debate.

(It is my guess though it will only be us that continue to argue about this fish)


----------



## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

poly's dr. ecology, poseidon is commander kok. The two shall remain bitter enemies until the day the bionic zhenasaki flowerhorn cyborgs arise from the rivers and conquer the world as we know it.


----------



## AzNxGuY2o9 (Jul 26, 2003)

whats wrong with a hybird? it keeps wild fishes in the wild.
true they would never met in the wild, but hey they still mated did they not.
my gf is white, would that make my kids a hybrid?


----------



## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> poly's dr. ecology, poseidon is commander kok. The two shall remain bitter enemies until the day the bionic zhenasaki flowerhorn cyborgs arise from the rivers and conquer the world as we know it.


 Poseidon is Commander Kok!!! AHAHAHAAHHA









I needed that.


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

oh man that is funny


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

> poly's dr. ecology, poseidon is commander kok. The two shall remain bitter enemies until the day the bionic zhenasaki flowerhorn cyborgs arise from the rivers and conquer the world as we know it.


and P-45 is Seargent 'Scarycat'











> whats wrong with a hybird? it keeps wild fishes in the wild.
> true they would never met in the wild, but hey they still mated did they not.
> my gf is white, would that make my kids a hybrid?










it keeps wild fishes in the wild?








Yeah, they still mated, but tigers and lions can mate, big deal.

The mixed race couple issue is waaaaay off topic (we are all the *same species!* ). If you have a kid with a chimpanzee, we'll bring it into the discussion.


----------



## Kory (Jun 5, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> poly's dr. ecology, poseidon is commander kok. The two shall remain bitter enemies until the day the bionic zhenasaki flowerhorn cyborgs arise from the rivers and conquer the world as we know it.


 rofl


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

lol well i think we need to avoid the argument of comparing breeding cichlids together like breeding humans to chimps. I dont even see how dogs and cats are as closely related as the cichlids used in fh breeding. While they are different species, they are not very different.. and probably have a pretty close common ancestory. Ill leave that up to you guys to think over. It doesnt make it right.. but its not so as extreme as many people make it out to be.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

You would be correct, much closer relations. I just wanted to stop that before it started (I may just erase it all).


----------



## xrcisto (Oct 1, 2004)

I think that this topic is an almost pointless one. The people who are in favor of this fish are always going to adamantly defend it, and the people who are against it are always going to say how terrible they are even to point of namecalling.

I think that there are many good and bad points for and against FHs. We (FH likers/haters) are all people who keep fish. some people like community fish, some like cichlids, some like pirahna, and so on. Why, if you don't like this fish do you have to insult the fish itself or the people who keep them? Can't we all just get along?



> Do not try to tell me "well some are being responsable", Some do not matter if all are not following.


By that rationale, nobody should keep any fish in fishtanks. Can you honestly say that EVERY single person that keeps fish is responsible in wild release and culling... Uhhhhhh... ...NO

I would never go so far as to call any fish a "turd" as someone so put it. No matter how much I disliked it. To call something you don't like a turd, especially if that something is someone else's pet, really ranks right up there.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

um..... welcome?

not that it matters (or I care) but did the poll results get altered?...

bizarre...


----------



## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

xrcisto said:


> I think that this topic is an almost pointless one. The people who are in favor of this fish are always going to adamantly defend it, and the people who are against it are always going to say how terrible they are even to point of namecalling.
> 
> I think that there are many good and bad points for and against FHs. We (FH likers/haters) are all people who keep fish. some people like community fish, some like cichlids, some like pirahna, and so on. Why, if you don't like this fish do you have to insult the fish itself or the people who keep them? Can't we all just get along?
> 
> ...


sort of an odd first post :laugh:









i think FHs are cool man and the whole lightening up on the wild caught fish deal is cool in my book

just so long as the fry or any grown out, are *not* let out into the wild

sorry had to edit in the not


----------



## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Oh never mind,


----------



## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

Polypterus said:


> Oh never mind,










It's best to just let this get swept under the rug....


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Polypterus said:


> Oh never mind,


yeah, this is way over. But welcome xrcisto !


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Alright, re-opening. Let the debate continue.


----------



## Feeder_Phish (Apr 15, 2005)

i dont like them


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Fair enough.... but why?


----------



## Feeder_Phish (Apr 15, 2005)

acestro said:


> Fair enough.... but why?


because the whole man playing with nature thing turns me off


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Fair enough.

The problem of keeping certain cichlid strains clean is an issue too. H. carpintis has some unique drainages and interesting variation between populations. However, most of what you see in LFS are hybrids between who knows what drainage cyanoguttatus and who knows what drainage carpintis.


----------



## Feeder_Phish (Apr 15, 2005)

acestro said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> The problem of keeping certain cichlid strains clean is an issue too. H. carpintis has some unique drainages and interesting variation between populations. However, most of what you see in LFS are hybrids between who knows what drainage cyanoguttatus and who knows what drainage carpintis.


that too its like what happened to the red wolf and ethiopian wolf they are dying out due to hybridization with coyotes and dogs(i know cichlids arent endangered but....its ruining them)


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Only problem being that the red wolf might actually be a natural hybrid between coyotes and wolves. Kind of affects the interest in protecting them at all.


----------



## stilllearnin (Mar 28, 2003)

> Flowerhorns are bad for the hobby











A fish built on lies and marketing scams for a fast dollar for the most part IMO and here's a few reasons I say that:

a


> kok


? even a nauchal hump got renamed? and people wonder why alot of people say they're a marketing scam

a


> flowerhorn fish is from the South American Cichlid family (under the genus Cichlasoma)










One of the marketing scams that started and stuck around alot of places for a while when they hit the market. --- Hyrbids have no genus and most of the founding fish are central american



> Nandopsis kirin


 <--- How many people remember that made up name







for such a great hybrid it was lied about and labeled a new non-hybrid species











> less pressure on wild populations


Always see this as a "great reason for flowerhorns" and I don't see it at all! How?

Don't the best flowerhorns start from the best wild linneages? Or is that another marketing scam?

Once the flowerhorn craze fades and tons of cichlids in the hobby are hybrids or at the least questionable (think trimacs),what will happen? More wild fish then ever will be collected to TRY to establish normal non-hybrids back into the hobby.



> The flowerhorn is a Feng Shui fish because it represents the power of mountains in its might head


 I thought Feng Shui meant wind and water and stood for simplicity and also existing with and appreciateing nature untouched? Untouched and man made hybrid is where I get lost with the whole Feng Shui reasoning behind them.



> FHs do not breed true at all, and it you try to breed two together of the same breed then they turn out awful.


 SO without being the newest cross on the market they're worthless







and all the people,places and flowerhorn breeders selling breeding pairs of ZZ's,kamfa's , etc.. etc.. are scams? I mean whats a "great show breeding pair" for that costs an arm and a leg when they can't reproduce anything except "awful" offspring ?
And established strains are worth more but can't be bred?








And the best show fish can be a worthless breeder?








And the best lines can't be reproduced?











> its just like with dog breeds, its the shape that is different... everything else just enhances the shape but the total image is also important.










When you mix dog breeds they go down in dollar value and not up and domestic dogs are all the same species.

Breeding for color shape and size is always made to be a huge deal with these fish,why? and so what!

What can be selectively bred in a flowerhorn that can't be in a non-hybrid?
Color ? - NO
Size? - NO
Aggression? NO

sure flowerhorn X flowerhorn might give a bright neon or red fish with a big nauchal hump the next generation then again even the flowerhorn fan say it might not.
NON- hybrids can do the same with selective breeding.

But guess what, invest some real time and effort into the hobby and:
Breed red bifas with a giant nauchal hump and they're furture offspring will look - just like them
Breed for neon green trimacs with lots of spots and - guess what their offspring would eventually look just like them too!
Breed for more red on trimacs ,(you know like a lot of hybrids want to look like) - but with non-hybrids - guess what their offspring would eventually look just like them too!


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Wow great replies!

I just thought of the wild population pressure thing on my own. I've always leaned towards not having hybrids but one or two have snuck into my fishroom! Yours may be one of the best posts in the thread.

I think the real problem is introductions of any cichlids in the wild. Hybrids do happen in the wild. I can think of an example in Mexico (Herichthys) and Africa (Cynotilapia/Metriaclima) right off the top of my head.

I'll go devil's advocate and say that hybrids in the hobby are harmless compared to invasive species in the wild. If the latter never happens, you'll always be able to find true strains/species, no matter how crazy hybrids get in the hobby.

Not the best rebuttal but what the hey! Probably because I'm still a purist at heart!


----------



## The Predator (Sep 28, 2005)

I saw a zz fh x JD at the LFS. It was stunning!

and I like flowerhorns. Hybrids keep the hobby expanding!

the LFS hates fhs but want the profit so they get grade A fhs ans they sell for $70


----------



## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

> A fish built on lies and marketing scams for a fast dollar for the most part IMO and here's a few reasons I say that:


I was not going to comment again on this but after reading that post Stillearnin
all I can say is


----------



## armac (Nov 28, 2002)

"When you mix dog breeds they go down in dollar value and not up and domestic dogs are all the same species."

That statement is not always true. I saw a piece on TV that in in california they mix-breeding dogs, calling them "designer-dogs" they go for 1500 bucks each


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I'm still lost on how there are no true 'lines' of FH. It seems like there could be to me. But if they cant create true breeding strains then they are really a messy thing to have in the hobby (there will be a LOT of rejects).


----------



## DuffmanRC (Oct 2, 2003)

I'm not sure if you have noticed or not stilllearnin, but the fry from the parents of FH look like the parents also. If you breed 2 pure midas and the male has a large naunchal hump, does this mean all the male fry will have the same large naunchal hump? no. If you breed a male Red dragon flowerhorn with another Red dragon flowerhorn, the fries main traits will come out the same as the parent. Its the naunchal hump and bodty shape that sets the high quality fry away from the low quality fry, because these are the rare traits of flowerhorns.

I feel that because it is a man made creature that it makes it slightly better to cull them, i still don't like the idea fully, but I'd rather hold back he ugly ones than to flood the market with them. Just like cars, no one likes an ugly car, and since its a man made product we can decide if the car gets "canceled". But they are living animals and that is the only reason i don't like culling.

It's the dumbass greedy breeders that give this fish a bad name. They dump their fish into the natural waters, they overprice, and they refuse to send quality fish here. Its hard to find an honest breeder over the seas that still keeps fair prices.

I love flowerhorns, to me they are the most colorful, interactive and smart fish i've ever seen. they are the perfect package. If only they weren't so expensive.


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I guess that answers my question, however FH breeders seem to indicate that there isn't any true strain. But you make a good point, 'reddragon' or whatever kind of FH you pick would have to be continuously re-invented by accident and that probably doesn't happen. Seems the confusion around these fish is a large part of the problem.


----------



## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

:laugh: i was watching something on the KKK last night

on the history channel and in one of the speeches i heard

a guy say animals breed with their own kind and dont pollute

their gene pool so should we, i thought it was pretty crazy

to have had people like that in our history .

but i dont see anything wrong with flowerhorns i think they

look cool, thats what most of use are after i think, something

cool to look at in a tank with personality, not all of us are

scientist and care if the fish is some pure breed thing all we

want its the "entertainment". it is sad that these mix breeds

get dumped and mess up native population or pollute native

genes and it should stop, maybe stiffer penalties on illegal

dumping, or regulations and liscensing for breeding mixed

fish, not that would help much but could be a shot


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Nothing like the KKK to influence one's thoughts on flowerhorns!


----------



## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

acestro said:


> Nothing like the KKK to influence one's thoughts on flowerhorns!










yeah i just watched that special then i got on here

to check the I.D. game threads to see if i knew any and

thought id add that funny little tid bit to this thread :laugh:


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Bumping a classic topic for while...


----------



## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

I was on the fence about FH's then I got one. and this little guy has as much personality as my old Jag did. He is rad! I think he's just hungry but he knows me. And when I come into the house he is already beggin for food and keeps begging all night. Even while he's eating he's still looking for more food. And DAMN hes growing fast. When I got him he was substantially smaller then my blue hap. Then in less then a week later he was almost 1 1/2 the size of the Hap! WOAH! PIGS I tell ya!! But its ok because he needs to catch up to the Green terror also in the tank so he dosen't get killed like the hap and con did.


----------



## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

i still think that flowerhorns are ok in my book. like i says

i think lots of people just want that one cool looking fish

why not have one with as much personality as a FH??

ultimately we all want something that looks good and a

huge plus to have a fish with personality


----------



## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

Yeah, but I'd rather have a pure Trimac--they're rarer in the hobby and look better to me...and I still have a hard time with the whole hybrid thing. But that's just MO and nobody should change their mind on FHs based on it (unless they want to do so--just give me credit LOL).


----------



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I still see both sides. I could go into politics if I felt the same way about everything the way I do about Flowerhorns.









But if you look at those Escondido carpintis and everything else out there (so much is hard to get in the hobby), there's a lot of cool stuff without hybridizing. And then you know their behavior, etc. is all natural and the likelihood of sterility is low.

That said, as long as they are ethical in their production (no releases into nature, no mis-identifying these as actual 'species', no breeding for mutations that hinder the normal shape of the fish, etc... ) I can tolerate it and even have one or two in my mostly natural collection.


----------



## Armand_caribe (Sep 9, 2009)

I love them they are awesome!!!....


----------



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

im with armand. im not head over heels for them, but ounce for ounce they are a truly awesome looking cichlid. some breeders take them a little far for my taste which is why i voted "they have some good points" instead of out and out awesome.

but for anyone who wants a cichlid experience with a nice sized beast in their tank, a FH is a win win if you have the tank for them.


----------



## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

No disagreement, but if I could get a pure Trimac, I'd go that way. (That having been said, I don't have the apartment room for that...) Call me speciesist, I guess.


----------



## PeachSoda21 (Aug 30, 2011)

Cool fish I just can't stand the way they look :O


----------



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

i agree on some of them
as usual, some breeders dont know when to just stop
but the middle of the road ones that arent over the top are pretty solid looking cichlids


----------



## FEEFA (Nov 19, 2007)

Def my favorite of all the hybrids, tonnnnnnnnes of personality and the best looking of all cichlids.

You either love the hump or you hate it, personally a reg $20 fh with absolutely no hump does nothing for me. Imo a minimum medium hump is required and a fertile female with even just mild hump is great.

The only thing that i dont like about these hybrids is the conditions that most of them face when it comes to reproducing them. Whether its small holding/breeding tanks or what happens to the low grade fry that are produced and what happens to them.

That being said I beleive that this will go on with or without me purchasing and keeping them so i will continue to enjoy them and possibly breed them myself one day, in better/proper conditions of coures.

I just purchased my second one, a thai silk at 2inches. No hump at all but some develop it later on so fingers crossed.
I will keep it regardless but will enjoy it that much more with a mild to medium hump/KOK


----------



## Armand_caribe (Sep 9, 2009)

FEEFA said:


> Def my favorite of all the hybrids, tonnnnnnnnes of personality and the best looking of all cichlids.
> 
> You either love the hump or you hate it, personally a reg $20 fh with absolutely no hump does nothing for me. Imo a minimum medium hump is required and a fertile female with even just mild hump is great.
> 
> ...


What about some picts Feefa????.


----------



## duster1971 (Jan 23, 2010)

i cant say that i hate or love these fish i own one. as for the strains there is alot more that goes into the creation of a FH. most respectable breeders look for certain traits in wild or even linebread captive fish to put into what i used to think was a hodgpoge mix myself. but in all reality there is quite abit of attention that goes into creating one strain of FH all of this comes down to that breeder knowing what fish they used thus being able to recreate such strain.
true the same fish used consistantly wont create the same colors marking kok ect but the culling process[the part i hate the most] means they can always have something similar.thaus creating a strain.

i apologise in advance for a possible confusing post but its 5:24 am here and i have not been to bed lol.


----------



## BlackPiranhas (Jul 11, 2010)

Got a FH 4 days ago and was wondering what you guys think it is genetic wise? It was beat up by a bigger FH and I rescued him from the shop I work at (where it happened obviously)

He has a wound on his head (looks like just scales bit off and a little tissue damage) and a little bit mark on his side. other than that, gorgeous and I was told to just leave it alone and it will heal. so I am waiting, but is there anything I could do in the meantime to treat him?

He is in a 65 gallon (3 ft long, 2ft high 18 inch wide) with 6 other cichlids. Auratus, Jeweled, JD, GT, Kenyi and a Managuense. oh and a pleco









So far, he hasn't been aggressive to the cichlids. The feeder fish on the other hand, got wrecked. It has been like 4 days I think since I got him and nothing has happened so I think it's good but you never know.. I am prepared for losses, if I do have losses id expect them to be the Auratus, Kenyi and GT as they are tiny.. the Jeweled too.

He dwarfs them easily

Any help on ID and possible treatment of the wounds would be appreciated, thanks!

(you can kinda see the head wound, but a better shot would make it clear. I will try to grab one tomorrow so you guys can really see it)






Thanks!


----------



## SpeCiaLisT (Aug 12, 2005)

BlackPiranhas said:


> Got a FH 4 days ago and was wondering what you guys think it is genetic wise? It was beat up by a bigger FH and I rescued him from the shop I work at (where it happened obviously)
> 
> He has a wound on his head (looks like just scales bit off and a little tissue damage) and a little bit mark on his side. other than that, gorgeous and I was told to just leave it alone and it will heal. so I am waiting, but is there anything I could do in the meantime to treat him?
> 
> ...


looks good. i think its a female because of the dorsal fin having a black flower mark on it. if u can heal her up n take care of her...she can look real nice and if shes fertile thats $$$$. looks like she has a double row too. fertile flowerhorns are rare.

well i personally love fh. very playful fishes...heres my king kamfa that i got from thailand.









































































with flash









taken with iphone 4.

enjoy.


----------



## BlackPiranhas (Jul 11, 2010)

SpeCiaLisT said:


> Got a FH 4 days ago and was wondering what you guys think it is genetic wise? It was beat up by a bigger FH and I rescued him from the shop I work at (where it happened obviously)
> 
> He has a wound on his head (looks like just scales bit off and a little tissue damage) and a little bit mark on his side. other than that, gorgeous and I was told to just leave it alone and it will heal. so I am waiting, but is there anything I could do in the meantime to treat him?
> 
> ...


looks good. i think its a female because of the dorsal fin having a black flower mark on it. if u can heal her up n take care of her...she can look real nice and if shes fertile thats $$$$. looks like she has a double row too. fertile flowerhorns are rare.

well i personally love fh. very playful fishes...heres my king kamfa that i got from thailand.









































































with flash









taken with iphone 4.

enjoy.
[/quote]

Hes gorgeous! Nice pick up for sure









How would I tell if she is fertile? is there any way to know for certain outside of breeding? Thanks! I appreciate everything


----------



## SpeCiaLisT (Aug 12, 2005)

BlackPiranhas said:


> Got a FH 4 days ago and was wondering what you guys think it is genetic wise? It was beat up by a bigger FH and I rescued him from the shop I work at (where it happened obviously)
> 
> He has a wound on his head (looks like just scales bit off and a little tissue damage) and a little bit mark on his side. other than that, gorgeous and I was told to just leave it alone and it will heal. so I am waiting, but is there anything I could do in the meantime to treat him?
> 
> ...


looks good. i think its a female because of the dorsal fin having a black flower mark on it. if u can heal her up n take care of her...she can look real nice and if shes fertile thats $$$$. looks like she has a double row too. fertile flowerhorns are rare.

well i personally love fh. very playful fishes...heres my king kamfa that i got from thailand.









































































with flash









taken with iphone 4.

enjoy.
[/quote]

Hes gorgeous! Nice pick up for sure









How would I tell if she is fertile? is there any way to know for certain outside of breeding? Thanks! I appreciate everything








[/quote]

thx bro.

only way to tell is if she lay eggs. so i guess u can try put a male with her and see if she gets big and lay eggs.


----------

