# I have issues with the use of the word



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Placing non-compatible fish in a tank is not an experiment. I am tired of people using this word to describe what they are doing.....it is not an experiment. Unless you are documenting everything and have a tanks with solo species to compair the behavior....it is no experiment. What you are doing is placing fish together to see if they will live or die...that is not an experiment.

An experiment is:


> A test under controlled conditions that is made to demonstrate a known truth, examine the validity of a hypothesis, or determine the efficacy of something previously untried.


What controlled conditions are you using to demonstrate a known truth, validate a hypothesis, determine the efficacy of something previously untired? NONE!

So please...for the sake of my sanity and others that actually know what is involved in conducting an experiment...dont refer to what you are doing as an experiment. It is simply tossing fish in a tank to prove it can be done....that is all....nothing scientific about it.

Ok...Rant over


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## king red belly (Apr 13, 2005)

who was saying they were making an "experiment" anyway?


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## icedizzle (Feb 3, 2005)

I think your comments are well worded. I think there is alot of "language" used on this site to justify things that in reality there is no justification for. Your rant on the use of the work "expirment" is a great example. Everyone that has taken grade 4 science knows that to have an expirment there must be a control, and most importantly a point to the expirment.

There is an ever growing list of abused words that are used on p-fury... 
Cohabitation
Shoaling
Expirment
...


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## Playboydontcurr (Feb 24, 2004)

king red belly said:


> who was saying they were making an "experiment" anyway?
> [snapback]988804[/snapback]​


ive seen many people say it, and GG is def right on with this statement.......theres nothing anyone can say to change the fact that people are gonna try to mix incompatible species no matter what they are told or what they read, but perhaps if they know they are going to lose one of their fish they might choose to save some money and not do it. Incompatible fish cannot be mixed otherwise theyd be called compatible species. i dont suggest trying any 'experiments' on any sort of small tank because failure is inevitable


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## mdmedicine (Dec 20, 2004)

icedizzle said:


> I think your comments are well worded. I think there is alot of "language" used on this site to justify things that in reality there is no justification for. Your rant on the use of the work "expirment" is a great example. Everyone that has taken grade 4 science knows that to have an expirment there must be a control, and most importantly a point to the expirment.
> 
> There is an ever growing list of abused words that are used on p-fury...
> Cohabitation
> ...


Get the suture remover to remove your lips from his ass....Geez. Bunch of tight asses


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

king red belly said:


> who was saying they were making an "experiment" anyway?
> [snapback]988804[/snapback]​


It happens all the time with people that are placing these fish together....
The latest example that sparked this thread was:


> cmsCheerFish
> just an expirement... if it fails, i will move my rhom....


But this was not about him......it is about justifying what people are doing like they are acting on behalf of science and the good of man. And it is getting irritating.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

mdmedicine said:


> icedizzle said:
> 
> 
> > I think your comments are well worded. I think there is alot of "language" used on this site to justify things that in reality there is no justification for. Your rant on the use of the work "expirment" is a great example. Everyone that has taken grade 4 science knows that to have an expirment there must be a control, and most importantly a point to the expirment.
> ...


Care to elaborate...or is this all you have to offer? If you disagree that is fine but please continue.


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## mdmedicine (Dec 20, 2004)

Grosse Gurke said:


> mdmedicine said:
> 
> 
> > icedizzle said:
> ...


I guess I just notice a lot of self righteousness lately. People slamming others (especially new people to the site) who may have questions others feel are "Dumb." Ok so the guy is not conducting an "Experiment." Let's show him how rather than slamming him for not using the correct language.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

mdmedicine said:


> I guess I just notice a lot of self righteousness lately. People slamming others (especially new people to the site) who as a question others feel is "Dumb." Ok so the guy is not conducting an "Experiment." Let's show him how rather than slamming him for not using the correct language.
> [snapback]988856[/snapback]​


I didnt feel this was a self rightious post...or at least it was not ment to be. It was simply me stating that placing fish together is not an experiment.....and it was not at all directed to any individual. I didnt think my post slammed anyone and that was not the intention. 
I just get tired of reading about all these "experiments" like the word is used as a justification. To conduct an experiment makes it appear as though there has really been a lot of thought prior to placing these fish together. I dont think that is the case in most attempts.
I have tried a lot of what is being disgussed in this forum...and a lot of things that have yet to be tried...but I would never call it an experiment.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

The proper term would be "Test" as in _tub test _for piranha group behavior. I don't use "shoal" as this is misused word, since piranhas do not shoal in the literal sense. They "group" which is the real terminology. Cohabitation is a word used primarily for gay couples or others, And according to Dr. W. L. Fink, the foremost authority on piranhas and other species, it is a stupid word to use with piranhas. It is an improper term that is evidently finding use among hobbyists on the internet. But literally, it is an amatuer word. Eco-system or this case, piranha eco-system is defined at OPEFE. You can look the link up and has valid use. I like to use piranha aquario (= piranha aquarium) which is my preference overall. Experiment has no use here, because as pointed out, you would have to monitor all conditions 24/7 in order for it to be a valid assumption. We are just hobbyists, so using "experiment" as term in this arena is not valid. You will however, have boneheads that will define the word to mean what they want it to mean. But members here at PFURY are encouraged to follow proper terminology so that they don't look foolish. Plus it gives them a more professional approach when the proper terms are used. Particularly if you are working with piranhas.

Another term is pirambeba. This common name is legal applicable to any species in Pristobrycon, Serrasalmus, and Pygopristis (Oregon vs Magallanes, 1993). They are not piranhas in the literal sense. The common name Piranha (for Brazilian Pygocentrus) and Caribe (for Venezuelan Pygocentrus) are also proper terms. But we loosely call them all piranhas. Which is confusing to newbies.

That's all I have for now on this topic. My fingers are getting tired.


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## mdmedicine (Dec 20, 2004)

Grosse Gurke said:


> mdmedicine said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I just notice a lot of self righteousness lately. People slamming others (especially new people to the site) who as a question others feel is "Dumb." Ok so the guy is not conducting an "Experiment." Let's show him how rather than slamming him for not using the correct language.
> ...


I could not agree more with you about that. I agree that what he is doing is not an experiment. I was responding to someone else's post. Haven't you seen a trend developing whereby new people to this site who ask some of the natural newbie questions get body slammed rather than welcomed. Maybe we could explain and educate. Not everyone has been trained to conduct experiments using the scientific method. Maybe we could offer to help thus increasing the education level of the people on this site rather than turning them off or making them feel stupid. Maybe even a pinned thread on the scientific method?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> mdmedicine Posted Today, 08:11 PM
> QUOTE(Grosse Gurke @ Apr 19 2005, 11:00 PM)
> QUOTE(mdmedicine @ Apr 19 2005, 06:50 PM)
> I guess I just notice a lot of self righteousness lately. People slamming others (especially new people to the site) who as a question others feel is "Dumb." Ok so the guy is not conducting an "Experiment." Let's show him how rather than slamming him for not using the correct language.
> ...


Good point and view. We (mostly I) tend to be hard when I type things out because its emotionless when its done. Nothing personal in it, unless I call you an ass.







But seriously, I couldn't agree with you more. Perhaps devising a term list so that folks can read it learn would help on what is proper for piranhas? Any opinions on that?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

mdmedicine said:


> I could not agree more with you about that. I agree that what he is doing is not an experiment. I was responding to someone else's post. Haven't you seen a trend developing whereby new people to this site who ask some of the natural newbie questions get body slammed rather than welcomed. Maybe we could explain and educate. Not everyone has been trained to conduct experiments using the scientific method. Maybe we could offer to help thus increasing the education level of the people on this site rather than turning them off or making them feel stupid. Maybe even a pinned thread on the scientific method?
> [snapback]988895[/snapback]​


And I agree with you about the treatment of new members....and this is an issue of constant discussion with staff. I do not want to turn anyone away from proper care of these fish because they are inexperienced...we were all there at one time. 
The reason I came to this site, and remain, is to teach the newer hobbyist how to properly care for their fish. All too often people get these fish with no idea how to care for them...that is what we are here for. 
My post was simply a rant about people justifying what they do in the name of science...and the fact that I see nothing scientific being done....nothing more. If it was received that way it was not intentional.


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## mdmedicine (Dec 20, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > mdmedicine Posted Today, 08:11 PM
> > QUOTE(Grosse Gurke @ Apr 19 2005, 11:00 PM)
> > QUOTE(mdmedicine @ Apr 19 2005, 06:50 PM)
> > I guess I just notice a lot of self righteousness lately. People slamming others (especially new people to the site) who as a question others feel is "Dumb." Ok so the guy is not conducting an "Experiment." Let's show him how rather than slamming him for not using the correct language.
> ...


Yes, Frank. A list would be fantastic....commonly misused terms, etc. A primer on the scientific method, etc.


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## mdmedicine (Dec 20, 2004)

Grosse Gurke said:


> mdmedicine said:
> 
> 
> > I could not agree more with you about that. I agree that what he is doing is not an experiment. I was responding to someone else's post. Haven't you seen a trend developing whereby new people to this site who ask some of the natural newbie questions get body slammed rather than welcomed. Maybe we could explain and educate. Not everyone has been trained to conduct experiments using the scientific method. Maybe we could offer to help thus increasing the education level of the people on this site rather than turning them off or making them feel stupid. Maybe even a pinned thread on the scientific method?
> ...


Not trying to kiss your ass here but I really wasn't responding to your post. It was more the piling on that reminded me of what i have been seeing lately....perhaps I need to lighten up a little too.


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

i cringed when this fourm popped up at first cause with the monkey see monkey do rule

you are going to have alot of people trying this "experiment" out. plus those that want to

be first to prove the facts wrong with their "experiment"


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

mdmedicine said:


> I could not agree more with you about that. I agree that what he is doing is not an experiment. I was responding to someone else's post. Haven't you seen a trend developing whereby new people to this site who ask some of the natural newbie questions get body slammed rather than welcomed. Maybe we could explain and educate. Not everyone has been trained to conduct experiments using the scientific method. Maybe we could offer to help thus increasing the education level of the people on this site rather than turning them off or making them feel stupid. *Maybe even a pinned thread on the scientific method?*
> [snapback]988895[/snapback]​


i would think a pinned topic on how to do a experiment like these the scientific way cause i think it would

be a bad ideal to encourage amatuer teen age kids doing these things. they dont have the time, dedication

money, or space i my opinion to do it right


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

My hopes were to get advanced aquarists (minimum 10 years experience) interested in talking about their mixed aquariums. By 10 years, the hobbyists with that knowledge has a great deal to offer and is hopefully beyond the hyped up bs that crops up on the internet. It is also my desire to see this forum used with actual evidence of mixed fishes, either photos and/or logged history to share. Just someone coming on and stating, yah I kept my fish together for 1 year 6 months and 2 days is not what I would call successful much less worth my time. Again, that is my personal opinion and doesn't reflect what other experienced members might think. I'll work on a list, but its optional whether or not anyone will use it. No point in trying to drive a nail through some thick skulls, but at least the list will be pinned. We can add more as need arrives.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

I think that perhaps my studies in piranha grouping is slightly different than most. I personally consider my projects experiments, and will explain why.

1st there is a hypothesis. This is not a fact, but an idea of mine.
The hypothesis is grouping like species of piranhas together can yield breeding.

Next I collect everything needed to group the like piranhas together. This includes fish, tanks, test material, video, and photograph material.

When my fish have been together for a substantial period of time, I consider it time to test my hypothesis. <There is no time frame on this hypothesis in a literal since. It can involve starting over. But there is a goal and objective for the project>

Hardcore data is collected every other day. This consists of
Daytime night time temperatures
Hours light... My lighting is broken into 4 categories.
PH is tested.
Both General hardness and Carbonic Hardness are tested.
Photographs are taken, and weekly videos are taken.
Amount of water change is taken and a percentage used.
The water chemistry of freshly added water is also added to collection data.

All this is used for graphing and looking back at conditions over time. Many people have asked me how to breed an unbred fish. The 1st thing I tell them is set up an excel spread sheet, and document as many factors as you can over time.

If the breeding is successful then there is a tremendous amount of data to view, and look for a repeatable method working specifically for my fish. This is not to advance any science. But if does accurately utilize the scientific method to determine conditions to produce repeatable breeding behavior with your stock. It also allows you an advance stage of sharing data with others perusing the same species.

PS. I do understand that many piranhas have bred with no outside intervention. But I choose to document the reaction of my fish to controlled stimuli over time. I also want to point out that my hobby has changed. I purchase, and place like species of piranhas together just to use my hypothesis, and attempt to develop a method of breeding them in a captive environment. Since I personally look for repeatability, applying a scientific method appears to be the correct thing to do. I believe somewhere there is a thread where Frank commended me for advancing to using the scientific method for my experiments with piranhas.

I only have 3 years in the hobby. But the entire 3 years, has been studying and documenting the activity of serrasalmus genus piranhas as a group. I prefer the same species, but the was outlined in my hypothisis. I may not have 10 years in the hobby. But I have video, and pictures of many like species of serras.

S.Geryi
S.Sanchezi
S.Serrulatus
S.Maculatus
P.Piraya
P.Cariba
S.Spiloplerua
S.Brandtii

All the above species I have kept with their own kind and have a tremendous amount of choronological collected data. My next step is purchasing a 3000 square foot home with a labratory environment in the basement. I may be a different kind of hobbyist than most, but collecting and viewing data has become part of my hobby. PErhaps experiment is the proper word for what I do with me fish. So far all colonies have lasted untill sold.

I am also very happy to share information with this forum


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## Dawgnutz (Mar 2, 2005)

Ok so most everyone knows that rhoms can't be house together (without dividers) so would it be an experiment to place 2 or 3 rhoms in a larger tank...maybe 500 gallons or bigger to breed? Thinking maybe the extra space would be enough to end the territorial dispute. I am not doing this by any means (wish I had a 500 gallon), just a question.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> serrasalmus_collector Posted Today, 09:58 PM
> I think that perhaps my studies in piranha grouping is slightly different than most. I personally consider my projects experiments, and will explain why.
> 
> 1st there is a hypothesis. This is not a fact, but an idea of mine.
> ...


If what you are dictating is repeatedly then you are subject to peer review. Since you are calling your projects experiments and using this collection of data then you are stating that everyone else should be able to repeat your investigations. In order for that to happen is for you to make those experiments available to everyone, so that they can see if your investigations are correct and repeatable.

This way if you make claims (which should be questioned if the data is based on small, biased or inadequately controlled). Or if your conclusions are based on misleading numbers, faulty or just incomplete. Also to consider here is how much of what you state is fact mixed with opinions. Even your conclusions (if you have any) may not correspond with the evidence you provide. Any scientist worth their grain of salt will make judgements about the reliability of the source before accepting results. In otherwords, scientific explanations are accepted when they are consistent with experimental evidence and when they lead to accurate predictions about further extensions of the investigation.

I wish you to consider what you stated here:


> I only have 3 years in the hobby. But the entire 3 years, has been studying and documenting the activity of serrasalmus genus piranhas as a group. I prefer the same species, but the was outlined in my hypothisis. I may not have 10 years in the hobby. But I have video, and pictures of many like species of serras.


Taking videos and photos is not worth much (and I don't mean that in a negative way) if you have no valid scientific explanation for what the fish are actually doing. For example, you can see 2 fish doing a mating ritual of tail slapping and jaw gapping, the hobbyists with some experience will see that as pre-breeding behavior. But what if they are 2 different species displaying that action? Is that still breeding behavior? What if these same species are of the same sex and displaying this behavior? How will you explain that if they are not sexually dimorphic?

So this is where we are with you. It might sound convincing to the novice or someone that has little to no experience with piranhas. That will take you into problems when they are not able to see the same things you think you are seeing. Just like you had an idea that S. geryi was feeding one of your fishes because they were headed in that direction. Piranhas will go to a specific area to eat and while it appears to us they are sharing their food, they are opportunistic feeders and will snatch the food away. This will go back and forth between the group. Now if your piranha brought the food to you at the top of the tank and shoved towards you then I would have to agree, yes, your fish is sharing its food. And I'm not saying that to belittle you or your thought. I just want you to recognize the relevancy of your argument. If you are grouping your fish in hopes of breeding them, more power to you. But I think you are chasing rainbows if you truly believe that "repeatability" is actually a scientific method when it comes to fish (= piranhas).

Anyway, I'm going to bed. Enjoy the read and don't take it personal.









PS: I probably did commend you on the scientific method you are trying to use. Just remember what I wrote above. It is subject to peer review and comment, so all of it must be made available for scrutiny...........nyte.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Dawgnutz Posted Today, 11:16 PM
> Ok so most everyone knows that rhoms can't be house together (without dividers) so would it be an experiment to place 2 or 3 rhoms in a larger tank...maybe 500 gallons or bigger to breed? Thinking maybe the extra space would be enough to end the territorial dispute. I am not doing this by any means (wish I had a 500 gallon), just a question.


They can be housed together, just not in a 500g tank. Majority of successful breeding has been in over 1,000g aquariums. But even with that volume, they tend to whittle down their number if you have them in group. Can 2 live together peacefully? not if they run across each other in that 500 or 1,000g aquarium. It's not carved in stone so please don't take it that way, its just not very likely and it would be a rare sight to see if you come across it. Scott (Dowd) at the NE aquarium and I have talked about this in the past on their S. rhombeus group displays. It got very nasty and deadly. They just don't do it, plus the adult fish are expensive to replace.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

I do not know what to say about your statements Frank, But I will still have to conclude that my work are experiments. I will explain more on my background and reasons why,

When researching *scientific experiment fish breeding *in Google. It brings the work of scholars and the layman. There are universities that teach with a course syllabus, the methods to experiment. Many involve the collecting of data for statistical analysis. There are also many articles written by hobbyist for countless magazines. The ones that have daily outlined changes, leading to breeding; are classified experiments. Even researching OPEFE under experiment yields many thing you are performing that involves fish housed together. That is what my research yields.

I want it to be known that I am nothing more than a hobbyist and enthusiast. But my studies in college were physics. I have bonded with the experiments leading to nuclear fission. I reference to the Manhattan Project. When fish are 1st purchase and place together for study, I apply the tile project. Such as S.Geryi project. After a period of time together, an outlined breeding experiment is laid out and followed. If unsuccessful the outline is modified and other experiments are performed and documented. The photos and videos are just traceability to the actions the fish perform while being the object of the experiment. This is critical to success. Referencing back to the action of a fish under controlled water conditions can yield patterns. This involves constant scrutiny. The mind can play tricks on you when you are looking for a predictable result, and only viewing your data.

It has been pointed out that my hypothesis is directed to my personal fish. I have come to the conclusion that the same group of fish will react entirely different under the same conditions in a different locality. This is the reason; I don't sell or purchase breeding pairs. To sell a pair, and explain exactly what was done in my home; can yield death and cannibalism to another. When referencing the Manhattan project leading to experiments generating radioactive isotopes; well that information is not available for just anyone <You can get arrested looking to deeply for it>. There are many scholars with doctoral degrees in the topic of the experiment but they can not gain access to the data leading to success. Just the hypothesis leading to a fact is all they get. It is a fact that the union of to sub critical masses of an unstable radioactive isotope will create nuclear fission. When looking at certain parts of the greatest successful experiment known to man; the core data is classified and un-published. The things done with my fish can have the classification of dangerous. Just housing them together, can yield a dead fish in the middle of the night. Manipulation of parameters can increase the odds. So I choose to remain silent, but observe and document.

My hypothesis is also in the experimental stages. Many experiments with a title classified will not have the goings on shared with anyone outside of the team. If they are looking to achieve something before anyone else, it should have a classified title. If the experiments lead to breeding, then repeatability is sought out. Only if a fish can breed 3 times back to back each year, for 2 years, will anything credible be released by me. The fish may just breed on their own. Buy applying what I believe to lead to success, and having it repeated numerous times for 2 years; will allow me to modify the hypothesis with a species name and share the results. Then and only then should it be suitable for another to consider it as a method to breed a particular species of piranha

I have recently had my S.Sanchezi project lead to an official breeding experiment. The fish bred 2 times and 2 days in a row. There is limited data, but a few pics of the eggs. For me to put out speculation on cause and affect leading to breeding; would be a bad hobbyist and experimenter. People may like the idea, attempt to duplicate it, and have an atrocity in their tank. Only if it can be done with repeatability this year and next year, will the outline to my successful experiment be shared.

Hopefully many people will see how serious I take the hobby of keeping piranhas together.

It is very good to get this out in the open. It would be a very bad experience to be attacked for using the word project, or experiment with what I am doing with my fish.

PS. I am very familiar with most methods of statistical analysis. It is my job at work to perform numerous statistical studies on dimension, and modify the design of tools based on the data. This statistical study proves how many defective parts a tool will make over time, and over 1,000,000 parts. 
Chrysler, Ford, GM, Mercedes, and Honda engineers have had extensive meetings with me over my statistical analysis of dimensional correctness. This should validate I have a great understanding of statistical analysis.

I want to clarify this has nothing to do with how Gross Gurke enjoys his hobby. I joined this thread, to share my beliefs and personal ideas of how my fish are dealt with. The definition of a hobby is what a person does in their spare time. I chose to do the data collection and analysis thing. That is part of my piranha hobby, and defiantly not for everyone.

(I saw no need to go public with this)
As for my geryi they react very different than what most have conveyed about them as a group. My private question to you as about the possibility of behavioral variation based on locality. I know for a fact my stock comes from the Rio Araguaia river system. But I can't find another who knows the origin or their fish, to even look into behavior differences based on origin. My statements on them was; they appeared to build and fashion a nest. One fish would get extremely fat in the belly region and not move within a foot of the area. The fish I believe to have paired with it, would get food. They all typically feed immediately when food is dropped into the tank. All the fish but that fat one would eat. The fish sharing space with the fat fish would bring food my mouth and mouth feed the fat fish. The tank is 8 feet long. It doesn't matter if I feed 6 feet from what appears to be a S.Geryi in egg laying stages of sexual maturation, or right next to it. The fat fish would never move, and feed itself. This is just an observation I notice, and archived. Since the fish have never been bred. Or if they have there is no data available. Every action and condition I can record is recorded. I have shared my information with people who have colonies of S.Geryi. But to make it public could excite people and they may kill very rare and expensive piranhas. Over time the fish will get skinny again, and feed with the rest of the colony.


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## redbelly93 (Dec 12, 2004)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> I do not know what to say about your statements Frank, But I will still have to conclude that my work are experiments. I will explain more on my background and reasons why,
> 
> When researching *scientific experiment fish breeding *in Google. It brings the work of scholars and the layman. There are universities that teach with a course syllabus, the methods to experiment. Many involve the collecting of data for statistical analysis. There are also many articles written by hobbyist for countless magazines. The ones that have daily outlined changes, leading to breeding; are classified experiments. Even researching OPEFE under experiment yields many thing you are performing that involves fish housed together. That is what my research yields.
> 
> ...


right on man. I do not have the knowledge, time or resources to do what you are doing. IMO there are to many people on this site making assumptions about others without complete knowlege. Assumption is the mother of all f*ck ups and when you assume you make an ass of u and me


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> serrasalmus_collector Posted Today, 07:03 AM
> *I do not know what to say about your statements Frank, *But I will still have to conclude that my work are experiments. I will explain more on my background and reasons why,
> 
> When researching scientific experiment fish breeding in Google. It brings the work of scholars and the layman. There are universities that teach with a course syllabus, the methods to experiment. Many involve the collecting of data for statistical analysis. There are also many articles written by hobbyist for countless magazines. The ones that have daily outlined changes, leading to breeding; are classified experiments. Even researching OPEFE under experiment yields many thing you are performing that involves fish housed together. That is what my research yields.
> ...


Let's look at what you stated Alan (and no need to get all bent out of shape) and it took me a bit to get past all the non-related issues you tossed in:

1. The videos and your remarks: _The photos and videos are just traceability to the actions the fish perform while being the object of the experiment. This is critical to success._ It doesn't answer what I asked above. How do you know if it is male or female if they are not sexually dimorphic. The only exception would be if you saw them breed and then you can view the video and state, yah, that's a male and that's a female.

2. Conclusions and locality: _It has been pointed out that my hypothesis is directed to my personal fish. I have come to the conclusion that the same group of fish will react entirely different under the same conditions in a different locality_ That's well published in science under phylogenetics. I could have saved you a lot of time, money and stress on your fish if you had asked me.

Assumption 1

Let's assume you are correct and that your scientific method as you describe it is working for you. Then we can assume that if a hobbyists goes into a pet store, buy's 2 piranhas, puts them into an aquarium, follows your method then they will breed. True? or False?

Assumption 2
_When looking at certain parts of the greatest successful experiment known to man; the core data is classified and un-published._ We are talking piranhas Alan, not the nuclear bombs. How can you expect your work to be peered reviewed if what you consider peers or a "team" are teenagers and those not qualified in the field of systemics or aquaculture? Unless its solely to build a following on ooohs and ahhhhhs. Not trying to be flippant. Just making an observation.

Assumption 3

_The definition of a hobby is what a person does in their spare time. I chose to do the data collection and analysis thing. That is part of my piranha hobby, and defiantly not for everyone._ Like I said, this is not nuclear bomb making. If what you have to offer hobbyists is information, then it should be public. On the otherhand if what you have to offer is just words and statements. Your in the wrong forum and web site.

Assumption 4

E_ven researching OPEFE under experiment yields many thing you are performing that involves fish housed together. That is what my research yields._

They are not experiments Alan and nowhere in OPEFE does it say they are experiments. They are T-E-S-T-S taking different species and putting them together.

Assumption 5

_(I saw no need to go public with this)
As for my geryi they react very different than what most have conveyed about them as a group. My private question to you as about the possibility of behavioral variation based on locality. I know for a fact my stock comes from the Rio Araguaia river system._

There was nothing private about your question and I brought it up solely to illustrate to you on assumptions you and others make. And it causes me pause to wonder, what assumptions you make in private to other hobbyists as fact.

And redbelly93 makes my point:



> redbelly93 Posted Today, 07:35 AM right on man. I do not have the knowledge, time or resources to do what you are doing. IMO there are to many people on this site making assumptions about others without complete knowlege. Assumption is the mother of all f*ck ups and when you assume you make an ass of u and me


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Honestly, who the hell cares what they call their own activiites....

Am I missing the point here?


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Here are your answers

Let's look at what you stated Alan (and no need to get all bent out of shape) and it took me a bit to get past all the non-related issues you tossed in:

1. The videos and your remarks: The photos and videos are just traceability to the actions the fish perform while being the object of the experiment. This is critical to success. It doesn't answer what I asked above. How do you know if it is male or female if they are not sexually dimorphic. The only exception would be if you saw them breed and then you can view the video and state, yah, that's a male and that's a female.

*1
These are experiments. Experiments to test a hypothesis I have formed. I am aware that piranhas most piranhas are not sexually dimorphic. Creating colonies of 6 or more are the beginning of the project. Experiments can deal with the unknown. The sex of the piranhas is just one of the unknown variables. I have a group, and hope for male and female. This is outlined, and does not deviate from an experiment.*

2. Conclusions and locality: It has been pointed out that my hypothesis is directed to my personal fish. I have come to the conclusion that the same group of fish will react entirely different under the same conditions in a different locality That's well published in science under phylogenetics. I could have saved you a lot of time, money and stress on your fish if you had asked me.

*2
I sincerely apologize for not having the database of factual documents you have in your possession. From a layman and non scientific perspective, and I pleased that my ideas are in agreement with scientific facts, and the literature scholars have produced. This could logically point to my direction being a correct and an accurate approach. I sincerely appreciate your concern with the stress of my fish. My S.Geryi has been together and never separated in close to 2 years. With no death. This could propose the assumption that the stress my fish experience is very minor. You have pointed out inadequate water changes and feeders, can stress a piranha into cannibalism. There are occasional fin nips, but that is the nature of the species. If is common knowledge that if someone places S.Geryi together to expect that. If not you can enlighten them.*

*Assumption can be a valid definition to formulate a hypothesis. Here are my answers to you proposed assumptions of mine.*

Assumption 1

Let's assume you are correct and that your scientific method as you describe it is working for you. Then we can assume that if a hobbyists goes into a pet store, buy's 2 piranhas, puts them into an aquarium, follows your method then they will breed. True? or False?

*I have over stressed that my experience is tailored to my personal fish in my dwelling. Repeatable success will yield my documents for others. I never said any piranha will breed under an outlined method. The key you have forgotten is piranhas are un-predictable. That is another unknown variable that must be consecutively dealt with in my experiments. If my chance I breed an un-bred serrasalmus genus piranha, when the information is presented for hobbyist; I want a minimum of 2 years of data to share. This will allow me to accurately answer most questions and not put out speculation. Just factual repeatable occurrences and the stimuli that was applied.*

Assumption 2
When looking at certain parts of the greatest successful experiment known to man; the core data is classified and un-published. We are talking piranhas Alan, not the nuclear bombs. How can you expect your work to be peered reviewed if what you consider peers or a "team" are teenagers and those not qualified in the field of systemics or aquaculture? Unless its solely to build a following on ooohs and ahhhhhs. Not trying to be flippant. Just making an observation.

*I am referencing the Manhattan Project as a valid experiment that has documentation world wide. It was a metaphor to compare my actions to. You mentioned S.Geryi in this thread. I honestly don't know any teenagers; I have shared in-depth research with. Until the experiments yields success (repeatable breeding); there is little to be shared. All that can accurately be shared is "I am trying to breed the fish and they have been together for sooo long" Others peruse this species, and I don't want to lead them down the wrong road. My post in this thread was to distinguish that I take a very scientific approach to learning more about piranhas. When dealing with a previously un-bred piranha chances are in-depth study, and numerous changes need to be made. If successful, and you have no ideas of what occurred over 4 months, how can you present a repeatable system. All you can say is your fish bred, and you did nothing. I chose a different approach to the entire scenario.*

Assumption 3

The definition of a hobby is what a person does in their spare time. I chose to do the data collection and analysis thing. That is part of my piranha hobby, and defiantly not for everyone. Like I said, this is not nuclear bomb making. If what you have to offer hobbyists is information, then it should be public. On the otherhand if what you have to offer is just words and statements. Your in the wrong forum and web site.

*That is a bad statement on your part being in the wrong forum. Perhaps rephrasing would be a good thing. I have presented the species I have housed together. That's what this forum is about. A member doesn't like having his piranha groups called experiments. He expressed why. I am an entirely different hobbyist and with a totally different approach. I consider my breeding experiments just that. I have joined this thread to express why. There is no true correct or wrong answer to what I do with my fish. The entire aspect is seen from a different perspective by you. You do not see the fish, or the graphs I study. You can only see what is posted.*

Assumption 4

Even researching OPEFE under experiment yields many thing you are performing that involves fish housed together. That is what my research yields.

They are not experiments Alan and nowhere in OPEFE does it say they are experiments. They are T-E-S-T-S taking different species and putting them together.

Please read this thread. It's on your site OPEFE. Search for the word experiment in the text. Perhaps you are unaware that you use the word, but there are actually over 7 pages you classify your observation as an experiment.

*Outlined experiemnts with groups of piranhas on OPEFE*

I'm not comparing myself to you, but just read, and please explain the differences in you collecting data based on your observation and me. We will not bring experience or time in the hobby; just give me a clear definition of the difference. Then we can have some PM's over the many other pages declaring you experiments. We can view the cold water tolerance next.

Assumption 5

(I saw no need to go public with this)
As for my geryi they react very different than what most have conveyed about them as a group. My private question to you as about the possibility of behavioral variation based on locality. I know for a fact my stock comes from the Rio Araguaia river system.

There was nothing private about your question and I brought it up solely to illustrate to you on assumptions you and others make. And it causes me pause to wonder, what assumptions you make in private to other hobbyists as fact.

I choose not to disclose any more information about my S.Geryi. But I await your replies.

I am just a simple hobbyist exploring many possibilities of my piranhas. As you see by my replies I have justifiable cause to classify them as experiments. Don't think I have anything against your or any other piranha hobbyist. We all have the same passion. Keeping our fish alive and together is the primary objective. Once that has been done for a substantial amount of time. Exploring of breeding the species should have the scientific method applied. There will be many questions if successful. It's good practice to have information to support your statements if you put them out a fact.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> I am just a simple hobbyist exploring many possibilities of my piranhas. As you see by my replies I have justifiable cause to classify them as experiments. Don't think I have anything against your or any other piranha hobbyist. We all have the same passion. Keeping our fish alive and together is the primary objective. Once that has been done for a substantial amount of time. Exploring of breeding the species should have the scientific method applied. There will be many questions if successful. It's good practice to have information to support your statements if you put them out a fact.


Evidently you are not comprehending anything I wrote. I don't care if you call your projects "experiments". The cited article with the seed feeding is cited often in some science circles and is now considered credible based on research conducted in the field. I had to follow a guideline and it had to be honest in each aspect, so the term "experiment on feeding seeds" is applicable and justified based on that acceptence by my peers who reviewed it. It also has nothing to do with what we just covered. That my friend is the big difference in what you are doing PRIVATELY and what I am doing PUBLICLY. I subject myself to peer review from all circles. That is why I'm qualified to speak about piranhas on the internet and at colleges, schools and the legislature. Which is why I take issue on redbelly93 remarks in comparison:

_ I do not have the knowledge, time or resources to do what you are doing. IMO there are to many people on this site making assumptions about others without complete knowlege._

If I read his remarks correctly, he is assuming I know nothing of what I speak when it comes to piranhas. Very arrogant and uninformed. I'm glad you straightened him out in your present remarks. _"I sincerely apologize for not having the database of factual documents you have in your possession."_ I will also add for redbelly93, I have 40 years experience studying piranhas. That alone allows me the priviledge of speaking authoritatively on this subject.

I'm not going to get into all that you wrote this time. It took me long enough to just get past all the smoke and decypher what it was you were trying to state. Hence I'm only quoting the above. I just want to be clear with you; this forum is for mixing species not breeding them. We have a breeding forum for that. So your post is actually inappropriate in this forum.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Ok...I did not create this thread so Frank and Allen can debate what Allen is doing.

My issue was with the use of the word experiment as a justification for what some are doing. It is not an experiment, it is not scientific, it is simply tossing fish together....simple as that.

Allen is not the type of hobbyist I was refering to when I made this thread.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Grosse Gurke Posted Today, 09:56 AM
> Ok...I did not create this thread so Frank and Allen can debate what Allen is doing.
> 
> My issue was with the use of the word experiment as a justification for what some are doing. It is not an experiment, it is not scientific, it is simply tossing fish together....simple as that.
> ...


I knew that from the git go. I was simply explaining to Alan that experiments in science are peer reviewed. And applied examples to show him. The rest of what is written is beyond me.


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## Dawgnutz (Mar 2, 2005)

hastatus said:


> > Dawgnutz Posted Today, 11:16 PM
> > Ok so most everyone knows that rhoms can't be house together (without dividers) so would it be an experiment to place 2 or 3 rhoms in a larger tank...maybe 500 gallons or bigger to breed? Thinking maybe the extra space would be enough to end the territorial dispute. I am not doing this by any means (wish I had a 500 gallon), just a question.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up for me. I wondered about that at times.


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

People can do shitty experiments that are not scientifically valid, but they are still experiments nonetheless. There's several definitions for experiment, and not all of them require an experiment be scientifically valid for it to be called an experiment.

For example



> # the act of conducting a controlled test or investigation
> *# the testing of an idea; "it was an experiment in living"; "not all experimentation is done in laboratories"*
> # to conduct a test or investigation; "We are experimenting with the new drug in order to fight this disease"
> # a venture at something new or different; "as an experiment he decided to grow a beard"
> ...


So for instance, you can say "I wonder if bleach will make me sick, and let's pour in all these other chemicals too, to see what would also happen" and it wouldn't be a scientifically valid experiment that you could draw conclusions from, but it still meets the criteria for being called an experiment.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

I experimented today with drugs. It was super. I compared my hypothesis (that i would get loopy) to the control (feeling normal) and came up with the scientific conclusion that drugs make me loopy.

Just a joke.... ease the tension.

*hides*


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## redbelly93 (Dec 12, 2004)

This is a great forum to have opened up. I hope in the future to see people use this for the advancement of this hobby and not as an excuse to watch fish of different families mutilate each other for years only to say they are so succesful because the fish are still alive. If you are an actual hobbyist who cares and I hope most people are, please be reasonable and dont claim success based on the fact that the fish are still breathing and swimming together. FOr the average hobbyist mixing different piranhas will not work. If we were all millionaires who could put a swimming pool size tank in our house then maybe. Lets remember this when keeping fish, we are just getting fish not the river or habitat they came from. So in conclusion people should lighten up and realize that no one here has much factual basis to conclude anything on except the fact that these fish rely on us to provide them with the neccesities of life. We are there keepers and in doing so should utilize common sense and not play Frankensteinian experiments with them. Thanks for listening and enjoy the food for thought


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> elTwitcho Posted Today, 11:19 AM
> People can do shitty experiments that are not scientifically valid, but they are still experiments nonetheless. There's several definitions for experiment, and not all of them require an experiment be scientifically valid for it to be called an experiment.
> 
> For example
> ...


There's a novel experiment. Care to participate in it? I'll take photos and do a write up on the effects.









Seriously though, I think some are NOT reading or seeing the key word in my statement: _ I was simply explaining to Alan that *experiments in science* are peer reviewed. And applied examples to show him. The rest of what is written is beyond me._


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> redbelly93 Posted Today, 11:28 AM
> This is a great forum to have opened up. I hope in the future to see people use this for the advancement of this hobby and not as an excuse to watch fish of different families mutilate each other for years only to say they are so succesful because the fish are still alive. If you are an actual hobbyist who cares and I hope most people are, please be reasonable and dont claim success based on the fact that the fish are still breathing and swimming together. FOr the average hobbyist mixing different piranhas will not work. If we were all millionaires who could put a swimming pool size tank in our house then maybe. Lets remember this when keeping fish, we are just getting fish not the river or habitat they came from. So in conclusion people should lighten up and realize that no one here has much factual basis to conclude anything on except the fact that these fish rely on us to provide them with the neccesities of life. We are there keepers and in doing so should utilize common sense and not play Frankensteinian


Point well taken.


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## redbelly93 (Dec 12, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > redbelly93 Posted Today, 11:28 AM
> > This is a great forum to have opened up. I hope in the future to see people use this for the advancement of this hobby and not as an excuse to watch fish of different families mutilate each other for years only to say they are so succesful because the fish are still alive. If you are an actual hobbyist who cares and I hope most people are, please be reasonable and dont claim success based on the fact that the fish are still breathing and swimming together. FOr the average hobbyist mixing different piranhas will not work. If we were all millionaires who could put a swimming pool size tank in our house then maybe. Lets remember this when keeping fish, we are just getting fish not the river or habitat they came from. So in conclusion people should lighten up and realize that no one here has much factual basis to conclude anything on except the fact that these fish rely on us to provide them with the neccesities of life. We are there keepers and in doing so should utilize common sense and not play Frankensteinian
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you Frank and tell stick to update his post. He has a beautiful setup that I have had the good luck of being able to see in person and appreciate. Not every hobbyist has the funds to upkeep a 750 let alone purchase one. thanks again for the kind comments.


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## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

the reason he doesnt want to go public is because he measures are extreme. its almost like the opposite of the reason for the creation of this forum. he keeps his practices sumwhat private so that newbies dont dublicate it and end up killing their fish.. and u guys made this forum to make known the dangers of mixing p's.. sorry if this doesnt make sense or what not but hopefully u can get the jist of it.. i just got out of physics and im a bit brain dead

hope i didnt step on n e toes


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## redbelly93 (Dec 12, 2004)

33truballa33 said:


> the reason he doesnt want to go public is because he measures are extreme. its almost like the opposite of the reason for the creation of this forum. he keeps his practices sumwhat private so that newbies dont dublicate it and end up killing their fish.. and u guys made this forum to make known the dangers of mixing p's.. sorry if this doesnt make sense or what not but hopefully u can get the jist of it.. i just got out of physics and im a bit brain dead
> [snapback]989816[/snapback]​


Ps are Ps. IMO it doesnt matter how long you have been taking care of them.People looking for trouble will find it just as much as putting together cockfighing chickens is bound to cause a fight. Ceretain things will occur and that is not an experiment it is just teenage what if I slam this bottle of alcohol mentality. Dont do stupid sh*t. Plain and simple. What goes around comes around and eventually it will catch up to you. Tell you what put your money in a fund instead of investing in failure. Or if you are that bent on wasting time and money find a hobby you enjoy. Better yet if you like torture go buy amagnifying glass and burn some ants this summer instead of wasting fish others can appreciate


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## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

redbelly93 said:


> 33truballa33 said:
> 
> 
> > the reason he doesnt want to go public is because he measures are extreme. its almost like the opposite of the reason for the creation of this forum. he keeps his practices sumwhat private so that newbies dont dublicate it and end up killing their fish.. and u guys made this forum to make known the dangers of mixing p's.. sorry if this doesnt make sense or what not but hopefully u can get the jist of it.. i just got out of physics and im a bit brain dead
> ...


huh? i dont get it.. yd u quote me


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> 33truballa33 Posted Today, 12:32 PM
> *the reason he doesnt want to go public is because he measures are extreme. *its almost like the opposite of the reason for the creation of this forum. he keeps his practices sumwhat private so that newbies dont dublicate it and end up killing their fish.. and u guys made this forum to make known the dangers of mixing p's.. sorry if this doesnt make sense or what not but hopefully u can get the jist of it.. i just got out of physics and im a bit brain dead
> 
> hope i didnt step on n e toes


I'm KNOW I'M GOING TO REGRET THIS BUT..........:laugh:









He is and has gone public. Oh he might not say outright what he is doing, but its out there anyway by indirect inneuendos. Please keep this in mind, these are just my observations on what I have seen HERE at PFURY. If he is doing more in public at his own forum or elsewhere, I don't know and don't care. If he wants to call them experiments.........no big deal, just don't create an appearence it is actually scientific when it is NOT going to be peered reviewed by anyone with any credibility. Understand? In plain speak if Alan or anyone else comes here and says.........I'm doing an experiment with such and such. Find and dandy, but don't use the actual term SCIENTIFIC METHOD to indicate you are following the actual protocol. In my personal opinion in smacks of sheep in wolves clothing.

If what he does works for his fish more power to him. If he states they suffer little stress that is just his opinion and carries no value because the fish do not speak (unless he has discovered something different).







Anyway, we do need to lighten up here.


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## redbelly93 (Dec 12, 2004)

33truballa33 said:


> redbelly93 said:
> 
> 
> > 33truballa33 said:
> ...


not directed at you sorry


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## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

i thought the scientific method was just an outline of procedures and didnt know it had to b peered review.. damn my 4th grade science teacher haha anyways..


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> redbelly93 Posted Today, 12:56 PM
> QUOTE(33truballa33 @ Apr 20 2005, 01:48 PM)
> QUOTE(redbelly93 @ Apr 20 2005, 12:38 PM)
> QUOTE(33truballa33 @ Apr 20 2005, 01:32 PM)
> ...


Who's left?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> 33truballa33 Posted Today, 12:58 PM
> i thought the scientific method was just an outline of procedures and didnt know it had to b peered review.. damn my 4th grade science teacher haha anyways..


Your 4th grade science teacher is your reviewer............were you asleep?


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > 33truballa33 Posted Today, 12:32 PM
> > *the reason he doesnt want to go public is because he measures are extreme. *its almost like the opposite of the reason for the creation of this forum. he keeps his practices sumwhat private so that newbies dont dublicate it and end up killing their fish.. and u guys made this forum to make known the dangers of mixing p's.. sorry if this doesnt make sense or what not but hopefully u can get the jist of it.. i just got out of physics and im a bit brain dead
> >
> > hope i didnt step on n e toes
> ...


sc


> When referencing the Manhattan project leading to experiments generating radioactive isotopes; well that information is not available for just anyone <You can get arrested looking to deeply for it>


its breeding fish not nuclear fission man, just lay it out so we can see it.

like frank says your already public with it, and weather you like it or not people will be

infulenced by you to do these "experiments".

sc


> I* never said any piranha will breed under an outlined method*. wouldnt this
> 
> be the reason to do these "experiments"??
> 
> ...


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## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

trust me guys he hasnt gone public.. hes given a lil insite but there is far more info that he hasnt shared.. n e ways lets get this back on track.. reds and rhoms is not an experiment


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

hastatus said:


> Anyway, we do need to lighten up here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I concur.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> 33truballa33 Posted Today, 01:11 PM
> trust me guys he hasnt gone public.. hes given a lil insite but there is far more info that he hasnt shared.. n e ways lets get this back on track.. reds and rhoms is not an experiment


I refer you to his last line in BOLD:



> serrasalmus_collector Yesterday, 09:58 PM
> 
> I think that perhaps my studies in piranha grouping is slightly different than most. I personally consider my projects experiments, and will explain why.
> 
> ...


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Frank I am not here to argue with you. I find your statement very hypocritical. I know you use the word aquaria, and you have your name on the bottom of this description. It can be found in a search engine under you name. Please read the thread and explain why the bold statements are accurate when you want to apply them, yet no one else can?

What do you classify home aqarium experiements

It's a P-fury link. Will you immediately change it or please explain why it's applied
What do you consider present home experiements? YOu have already stated you don't use the word experiment on OPEFE regarding your work. A link was posted, and you have become exempt again. What is really the difference in what you do, and document as opposed to what others do. I am looking for a straight forward answer. YOu have other things on OPEFE that truly make no scense to me, but they are not part of my interest. You do call them out as experiements.

Direct QUOTE

-

Temperature: 
76-84 degrees F.

pH: 
6.6-7.1

Compatible Species: 
*Present home aquarium experiments *suggest this fish may be compatible with members of same species. Unusual for a Serrasalmus species.

Breeding: 
Not yet bred in captivity.

Food: 
Fins and whole fish. Little reported on field diet.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> serrasalmus_collector Posted Today, 01:29 PM
> Frank I am not here to argue with you. I find your statement very hypocritical. I know you use the word aquaria, and you have your name on the bottom of this description. It can be found in a search engine under you name. Please read the thread and explain why the bold statements are accurate when you want to apply them, yet no one else can?
> 
> What do you classify home aqarium experiements
> ...


Someone needs to explain that link to him.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> Frank I am not here to argue with you. I find your statement very hypocritical. I know you use the word aquaria, and you have your name on the bottom of this description. It can be found in a search engine under you name. Please read the thread and explain why the bold statements are accurate when you want to apply them, yet no one else can?
> 
> What do you classify home aqarium experiements
> 
> ...


Me and Judazzz wrote that. I have no problem with the word.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

PS. For the record.

My online activities with places you are not involved is truly beyond the scope of this topic. I can not name one person I have interacted with online and they lost a fish to any of my statements. So please don't tread down that path.

I personally don't like you comments about fish becoming bold a brave and eating a tail or becoming lunch. The conditions you look for are viewed quite cruel in my opinion, but I don't dare attempt to correct a person's speech. It is their individual personality, and what sets them apart from others.

Peace my Brother. Remember we are all brothers originating from the loins of ADAM.

Peace and harmony amongst hobbyist with freedom of expression in not such a bad thing. Remember, I am just sharing personal experiences and ideas. It truely doesn't need to pass any scrutiny. My fish are all alive, and this brings me great joy.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> serrasalmus_collector Posted Today, 01:44 PM
> PS. For the record.
> 
> My online activities with places you are not involved is truly beyond the scope of this topic. I can not name one person I have interacted with online and they lost a fish to any of my statements. So please don't tread down that path.
> ...


Yah ok.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

You know what is really funny. All this constant back and forth about the use of the word experiment and look at the warning for this forum at the top of the page:



> The ideas and opinions presented in this forum are *experimental* and could potentially lead to fish stress or death. FOR ADVANCED AQUARISTS ONLY.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> Peace my Brother. Remember we are all brothers originating from the loins of ADAM.
> [snapback]989961[/snapback]​


You are a funny character Alan.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Anyone ever wonder why Adam and Eve have a belly button if they came from the dust and Adam's rib?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Grosse Gurke Posted Today, 01:56 PM
> You know what is really funny. All this constant back and forth about the use of the word experiment and look at the warning for this forum at the top of the page:
> 
> QUOTE
> The ideas and opinions presented in this forum are experimental and could potentially lead to fish stress or death. FOR ADVANCED AQUARISTS ONLY.


Damn you Mike. Now I'll be blamed for that too.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

hastatus said:


> > Grosse Gurke Posted Today, 01:56 PM
> > You know what is really funny. All this constant back and forth about the use of the word experiment and look at the warning for this forum at the top of the page:
> >
> > QUOTE
> ...


You made that one up bud.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Anyone ever wonder why Adam and Eve have a belly button if they came from the dust and Adam's rib?
> 
> 
> 
> ...












How about this: we just implement a filter that auto-replaces the word "experiment" with something else?
That would make Jeff happy, those that want to can continue to use the word experiment (although in vain), and those that don't give a damn can continue not giving a damn


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Check your memory at the gate Mike. This is what I wrote to you:



> The piranha eco-system forum to discuss relationships with groups of piranhas, same species or with other fishes found in the wild or mixed in the home aquarium. FOR ADVANCED AQUARISTS ONLY.


That other portion was YOUR DOING.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Judazzz Posted Today, 02:40 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Apr 20 2005, 10:11 PM)
> Anyone ever wonder why Adam and Eve have a belly button if they came from the dust and Adam's rib?


How about this: we just implement a filter that auto-replaces the word "experiment" with something else?
That would make Jeff happy, those that want to can continue to use the word experiment (although in vain), *and those that don't give a damn can continue not giving a damn *

Works for me!


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Nope. I copied in the description as it was originally written in the thread.

PS. Nice socks.


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## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

u were airborne?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> 33truballa33 Posted Today, 02:56 PM
> u were airborne? *YES*
> Xenon Posted Today, 02:50 PM
> Nope. I copied in the description as it was originally written in the thread.
> ...


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Xenon said:


> Nope. I copied in the description as it was originally written in the thread.
> *
> PS. Nice socks.*
> [snapback]990106[/snapback]​


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks and no you can't have them either.


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## nedzter (Mar 19, 2005)

Xenon said:


> Honestly, who the hell cares what they call their own activiites....
> 
> Am I missing the point here?
> [snapback]989458[/snapback]​


Right on Mike (aka Xenon)...
Who cares? Too much to read...it reminds me some classes on college about the scientific method...I see their point, but I don;t care much...

I care about reading on peoples experiences on mixing species, I am doing it myself


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