# Thinking of setting up my first saltwater.....



## NakedSavage (Apr 9, 2008)

Im thinking of turning my 55gal into a saltwater tank, nothing fancy just a few easy but intersting fish and some live rock, and i want to do this with as little money spent as possible so im looking to the experts here to help out. My setup includes........

Two 15w hoods

Rena fistar xp2?? maybe.... its rated for 75gal and has one basket filled with ceramic rings other than the filters

stealth heater also rated for 75gal

My question is, with these basics what will i need for a fowlr tank? Will the hoods work for live rock? I would like to have some coraline growth... are there bulbs i can buy that would be good enough for this?

Can u use this type of filter with a saltwater tank? I dont seem to read about many ppl useing them.

Anything you guys can tell me about the equipment i will need is greatly appreciated. Remember im trying to keep this cheap and pretty much just need the essentials right now. Thanks!!


----------



## redbellyman21 (Jun 27, 2004)

ok heres a quick rundown
you can use ur 15watt hood lights, but realize that off spectrum lighting will make a new tank have such crazy algae blooms on top of normal new tank syndrome.
Throw away the xp2 or store it for another day. Buy or reuse a hob filter that u can easily just throw away cartridges weekly/biweekly depening on tank usage. People will give me crap over hob filters, but I just replace the cartidges weekly and all my readings r untraceable.

cheap t5 lighting available at aquatraders.com 
u could make a hob refugium out of a ac110
find cured live rock on craigslist cheap, that way u might get 2-4 year old rock
and plan your fish well, so not to over power the filter and u have sucess
skimmers are nice, but if u do water changes with ro water u will be fine if fowlr. but u would def want to save up and get a nice skimmer.


----------



## SeedlessOne (Nov 21, 2006)

You can actually get away with just LR and powerheads if you keep your bio load down. Also if you want to use a HOB I personally would not use any media in there except some LR ruble. Not to discredit the above post but IMO that would be a nitrate factory. And remember SW is not cheap. Yeah you cant cut corners on set up but you will end up getting the craze and spending more money that you ever imagined. I wish I didnt try "cheap" b/c now I am replacing equipment.

Good luck and feel free to ask any questions. There are some very knowledgeable people running around on the SW board. You will love SW!!!


----------



## redbellyman21 (Jun 27, 2004)

SeedlessOne said:


> You can actually get away with just LR and powerheads if you keep your bio load down. Also if you want to use a HOB I personally would not use any media in there except some LR ruble. Not to discredit the above post but IMO that would be a nitrate factory. And remember SW is not cheap. Yeah you cant cut corners on set up but you will end up getting the craze and spending more money that you ever imagined. I wish I didnt try "cheap" b/c now I am replacing equipment.
> 
> Good luck and feel free to ask any questions. There are some very knowledgeable people running around on the SW board. You will love SW!!!


totally agree that hob could become nitrate traps, but at weekly replacements, its not bad. I would also shoot for the lowest bio load possible, but if he wants something cool and fowlr chances are he will go with bio loading fish~







I again dont recomend hob for all, but on my 33 reef, since there is no room for sump and its just mini reef tank, with a flame angel, hippo tang that I growing out, breeding clowns, 2 cleaner shrimp, and a arrow crab the hob filter is nice along side my ac110 refuge. But hey I mean on my huge 90 fowlr I have a 40 gallon rubbermaid sump full of mangroves chaeto and lr.

also putting LR rubble in a hob is the same as a powerhead on LR, I mean it would hardly be a refuge for much considering all the bug life could just as easily live in the tank. I again state weekly filter replacements would work... But my whole point is he will most likely need the chem filtration for the new tank syndrome.. u know what I mean seedless? I mean after 3-5 months he can switch over to better, but hopefully he would have bought some nice skimmer/etc. I am just looking out for thebeginner saltwater at a budget.

Ultimately dude the most important thing is to plan and read plan and read, kinda like measure twice cut once... lol ask any one of us Saltwater goers we will tell you, we have some skeletons in the closet, be it not spending the money or not spending it right.. or buying fish that dont mix. There is so many possibilites, that there is no one quick way, check out books see what u like, see whats available in your area, than decide...


----------



## NakedSavage (Apr 9, 2008)

Thanks guys, over the next week im gonna be reading up on this as much as i can to get ready and search the garage sales cause ive been finding some sweet deals around here, my 65gal with lightstrip, stand, filters and alot more for only 50bucks! Also im gonna check out the Jacks aquariums close by they are the only ones close to me with saltwater that i would trust.

Just one more question... Why dont ppl use canisters? just cause of the nitrate buildup or what? couldnt u still use the ceramic rings or put live rock rubble in there?


----------



## SeedlessOne (Nov 21, 2006)

The reason I have LR ruble in a HOB filter is so pods have a chance to reproduce rather than getting eaten right away. Is that not working like I think it is?


----------



## redbellyman21 (Jun 27, 2004)

SeedlessOne said:


> The reason I have LR ruble in a HOB filter is so pods have a chance to reproduce rather than getting eaten right away. Is that not working like I think it is?


hey its ur tank, but I would just add a lil light and some macro algae to maintain the ph at night. but canister filters are just a gateway to awfulness, think about it, the hoses to and from the canister fill up with nitrates and the ceramics will clog up, I tired it, I thought if you make a canister all bio media youd be fine, but the media will clog up and than become nitrate traps in amatter of days... so by the time you get in a maintence schedule, you will have a so many variables, and its just easier to cut it out. I know a lot of people to try it, and honestly I have 7 canister filters in the garage sitting. lol gngiht


----------



## NakedSavage (Apr 9, 2008)

Well i was thinking of just setting up one tank... meaning if i sell one and keep my 65 gal as a saltwater i could use both my canister filters on the same tank, i figured it would be great circulation cause they have little water pressure attatchments that makes it as strong as a powerhead, and i could use rubble in the canisters with weekly cleanings keeping the nitrates low.... right??

Maybe im being a bit excessive but i just hate the thaught of not useing my perfectly good canisters and buying more equipment... im already cleaning my tanks weekly and if i cut down to one tank i would have no problem staying on a weekly cleaning schedule, If i keep this cleaning up would there still be problems with the canisters? Its basically the same as a HOB with rubble in it right? I would just clean the filters and rinse the rubble in saltwater to get rid of debres... any input is appreciated guys and im very greatfull.

Thanks for the link for the light fixtures by the way!!! great price


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

NakedSavage said:


> Well i was thinking of just setting up one tank... meaning if i sell one and keep my 65 gal as a saltwater i could use both my canister filters on the same tank, i figured it would be great circulation cause they have little water pressure attatchments that makes it as strong as a powerhead, and i could use rubble in the canisters with weekly cleanings keeping the nitrates low.... right??
> 
> Maybe im being a bit excessive but i just hate the thaught of not useing my perfectly good canisters and buying more equipment... im already cleaning my tanks weekly and if i cut down to one tank i would have no problem staying on a weekly cleaning schedule, If i keep this cleaning up would there still be problems with the canisters? Its basically the same as a HOB with rubble in it right? I would just clean the filters and rinse the rubble in saltwater to get rid of debres... any input is appreciated guys and im very greatfull.
> 
> Thanks for the link for the light fixtures by the way!!! great price


I have read several times in this topic that people are recommending HOB and canister filters, thats terrible advice and will only force you to fight other serious problems down the road.... They arent made for use in a saltwater aquarium! The name of the game in Saltwater is EXPORT, not trap in a filter pad or floss for bacteria to break down... And by using a HOB or canister filter you are doing nothing but making a fuel factory for algae... Its like trying to use a stove to make icecubes, wrong tool for the job!

DO NOT USE CANISTERS OR HOB FILTERS, and actually i would recommend you throw out most of the advice in this topic so far...



> totally agree that hob could become nitrate traps, but at weekly replacements, its not bad. I would also shoot for the lowest bio load possible, but if he wants something cool and fowlr chances are *he will go with bio loading fish*


Bio loading fish? uh... "Bio load" is a term used to describe the about of fish and fish waste in an aquarium... bio meaning life, load meaning well... load



> but I would just add a lil light and some macro algae to maintain the ph at night


Macro algae has nothing to do with maintaining your PH... running your lights inverse of your display lighting helps to reduce the drop of your ph at night... but once again i think you are confused...



> but realize that off spectrum lighting will make a new tank have such crazy algae blooms on top of normal new tank syndrome.


Not ONCE did he say what type of bulb or spectrum of lights he had.. only that they were 15w



> sk any one of us Saltwater goers we will tell you, we have some skeletons in the closet, be it not spending the money or not spending it right.. or buying fish that dont mix.


Actually no, i dont have anything i am ashamed of... I took almost a year and a half of reading every free second i had, and saving money to make sure i did this right. I have watched 50 or so people throw themselves at SW aquariums as a hobby, and think that money or "what they know already" will make it work. 99% of them end up burning money, or get pissed because the only thing growing is algae...

Basically DISREGARDING most of the info already posted (although SeedlessOne seems to be on the right track!) heres what i would do if you want to start your first tank:

READ... every spare second you have for as long as you possibly can, and take notes as well... in the SW section here theres tons of stickied topics for you to start... then move on to ReefCentral.com

After about 4 months of reading, once you get a grasp on the concept and how to set up a tank properly, then start slow and draw out a plan!

Get your equipment together (NO CANISTER OR HOB FILTER CRAP) and buy yourself a skimmer, rated properly for your tank...

Add your sand, mixed water (USING RO/DI water!) rock, and a small piece of shrimp... then read for another few months while your tank establishes its cycle and stability... after a few weeks you could add some snails or hermits to take care of the algae thats going to bloom, and then fade off, but make sure they dont starve (feed them flakes or something once and while?)

Add a fish or two, once all your tests show the cycle has been completed....

Keep reading! you will learn more and more every day!

Thats all i have for now...


----------



## SeedlessOne (Nov 21, 2006)

And he has spoken......LOL I'll stick to giving FW advice.....

NakedSavage, SkunkBud should be your new BFF for advice for starting your SW tank.


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

SeedlessOne said:


> And he has spoken......LOL I'll stick to giving FW advice.....
> 
> NakedSavage, SkunkBud should be your new BFF for advice for starting your SW tank.


Nah man, you were square on with your advice... especially the saying about going "cheap" and cutting corners in the beginning...

Do it once, and do it right instead of fighting the problems that canisters, HOB filters, not running a skimmer etc will cause down the road so you can actually enjoy the tank and not have it become a "chore"


----------



## redbellyman21 (Jun 27, 2004)

skunk we all have made mistakes in this hobby, dont act high and mighty, i know ur type, they come into my LFS and act like they know it all... I see you have solid advice, but if you set up a sw tank with ro water right now, and put in small reef fishes, like the 6 line wrasse, a pair of clowns, a shrimp or 2 pending on size of tank, and some awesome lr and live sand that I mentioned about on craigslist, the older the better, what would be wrong with a hob filter, I know they can be nitrate traps, but so could a prefilter or sock filter on a sump, IF IGNORED! IF AS STATED, replace the media weekly, there will be no chance of nitrate traps, and guess what, the carbon/sponge will have broken down some nasty chemicals.. I did tell him to get a skimmer, but with the fish choices I mentioned, or any arangement of small reef inhabitants, he could pull off no skimmer with weekly water changes. I did advice strongly to save for a skimmer that is rated for his tank, and not skimp out on it, but weekly water changes, MATURE LR and weekly replacement of HOB media, would work. I know since I do it, only difference is I have a skimmer. I ALSO SAID that they are both bad choices, the canister and HOB, but being as tho he is on a budget, and maintence on hob is easier than canisters I said use the HOB. Ok and now back to you never making a mistake. I read every book, I actually have schooled my marine biology teacher multiple times.. I am not trying to attack you, but you make it like Im a moron, I instead of you, listened to what he said and made recomendations based on his post. Whereas you just tore our help apart.

so to recap
a refugium will not balance ph without some sort of life like LR or CHAETO, unlike your comment
BIO LOAD is the waste of a fish, but diff fish have diff loads... like a lion versus a cleaner shrimp
no 15watt hood light was ever ever ok for a sw tank, hence not the full spectrum..
I dont think this guy should rush it, never said he should, I think telling him to use craigslist was a good idea save money and get nicely cured LR to cut cycle time in half.

I am sorry if I come off angry but I am, unlike you I am not an internet tough guy, I was just trying to help the guy out. member we all helping each other? or am I off?


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

redbellyman21 said:


> skunk we all have made mistakes in this hobby, *dont act high and mighty, i know ur type,* they come into my LFS and act like they know it all... I see you have solid advice, but if you set up a sw tank with ro water right now, and put in small reef fishes, like the 6 line wrasse, a pair of clowns, a shrimp or 2 pending on size of tank, and some awesome lr and live sand that I mentioned about on craigslist, the older the better, what would be wrong with a hob filter, I know they can be nitrate traps, but so could a prefilter or sock filter on a sump, IF IGNORED! IF AS STATED, replace the media weekly, there will be no chance of nitrate traps, and guess what, the carbon/sponge will have broken down some nasty chemicals.. I did tell him to get a skimmer, but with the fish choices I mentioned, or any arangement of small reef inhabitants, he could pull off no skimmer with weekly water changes. I did advice strongly to save for a skimmer that is rated for his tank, and not skimp out on it, but weekly water changes, MATURE LR and weekly replacement of HOB media, would work. I know since I do it, only difference is I have a skimmer. I ALSO SAID that they are both bad choices, the canister and HOB, but being as tho he is on a budget, and maintence on hob is easier than canisters I said use the HOB. Ok and now back to you never making a mistake. I read every book, I actually have schooled my marine biology teacher multiple times.. I am not trying to attack you, but you make it like Im a moron, I instead of you, listened to what he said and made recomendations based on his post. Whereas you just tore our help apart.
> 
> so to recap
> a refugium will not balance ph without some sort of life like LR or CHAETO, unlike your comment
> ...


My type? As in somebody willing to go blatantly out of their way to help other hobbyists set up the best tanks they can in the beginning, and not end up spending twice as much money in the long run if they skimp and cut corners from square 1? My type as in somebody who has taken countless hours to help members with ideas for new tanks or talking about salt? or my type as in somebody who has tried everything you mentioned and found it a circle-jerk and 10 times as much work and money as compared to doing it properly, and setting it up to be maintainance free from the begining?



> if you set up a sw tank with ro water right now, and put in small reef fishes, like the 6 line wrasse, a pair of clowns, a shrimp or 2 pending on size of tank, and some awesome lr and live sand that I mentioned about on craigslist, the older the better, what would be wrong with a hob filter


The older the better? Disturbing an existing sand bed (ESPECIALLY anything over 1 1/2 deep) releases tons of toxic build up, including gases like CO2 (cause ph crashes, bacteria blooms that suffocate your fish etc) so therefore i would say using used sand (other than a few cups to SEED new sand) is a terrible idea... next onto the "right now" part, no matter what you do theres going to be a cycle involving elevated levels of ammonia, nitrates and nitrites which are stressful on fish in small amounts, let alone the levels a new system can produce... its a COMPLETE waste of money to risk the lives of fish, or any livestock, when a small piece of cocktail shrimp is just as effective, nearly free, and a snack while you wait...

next onto whats wrong with a HOB filter: as i said, filter floss, sponges, any of that crap are bad news in a SW aquarium... you want to EXPORT not TRAP... as you said "replace the pads every week to avoid nitrate buildup" or whatever, another COMPLETE waste of money, not only are those filter pads really doing nothing, but they are money that could have been spent in setting up a small sump in the beginning and not having that weekly cost... secondly you mentioned removing the pads and filling it with rock rubble or making it a refugium, they are super small in size, and once again... why not have a small sump and not look at that ugly HOB? At least i can wash my filter socks 100 times and re-use them... and they can even cause problems if not replaced DAILY

Like i said, do it once, do it right, enjoy it forever...



> I ALSO SAID that they are both bad choices, the canister and HOB, but being as tho he is on a budget, and maintence on hob is easier than canisters I said use the HOB.


an overflow box is 15$ off ebay used, a pump is less than 40$ for a smaller tank, and a 10 gal tank for a sump is 10$, or like 25$ for a 29 long off craigs list... if you cant afford that then saltwater is not a good hobby for you, or you should be patient and save up the 75$ to get your system running, then slowly add the rock, and a skimmer in the month before you should add fish or livestock... and also its really expensive to just use the filter pads for the carbon, you can get a small reactor for 30$ and bulk carbon for cheap.



> Ok and now back to you never making a mistake. I read every book, I actually have schooled my marine biology teacher multiple times.. I am not trying to attack you, but you make it like Im a moron, I instead of you, listened to what he said and made recomendations based on his post. Whereas you just tore our help apart


I NEVER SAID I HAVE NEVER MADE A MISTAKE, I SAID I HAVE NOTHING IM ASHAMED OF...I try to avoid mistakes, thats why i simply stated that everything you have mentioned is a money pit that will turn off a beginner from the hobby... adding lots of used sand "the older the better", the HOB, adding livestock right off the bat... hes going to end up with a hair algae factory before the system balances out, and i have seen it 100 times in person... the cost of even killing 2 or 3 saltwater fish is less of a cost of doing it right the first time... trust me i have been there







This is what happened when my friend used a HOB filter for about 6 months, and GAVE me his tank because he was so sick of fighting it, wouldnt listen about the filter, skimmer, or using RO/DI water, this is the day after i scrubbed all the rock (inches of green hair algae) and set up the tank and the sump, just full of rock rubble...


This is the same tank about a month later, after i took over and added a sump, skimmer and did a few good water changes









You gave your perspective, I gave my input the same as you did... if you took offense to that im sorry, but like i said from everything i have experienced personally, theres a better way to do it, that costs less money, and is less of a pain in the ass maintainance wise



> a refugium will not balance ph without some sort of life like LR or CHAETO, unlike your comment
> BIO LOAD is the waste of a fish, but diff fish have diff loads... like a lion versus a cleaner shrimp
> no 15watt hood light was ever ever ok for a sw tank, hence not the full spectrum..
> I dont think this guy should rush it, never said he should, I think telling him to use craigslist was a good idea save money and get nicely cured LR to cut cycle time in half.


1) i never said anything about with or without cheato, or BALANCING PH... you said MAINTAINING which is a completely different thing.... so FALSE... A refugium will only "balance" your PH by not letting it drop at night (when things stop consuming and releasing oxygen) thus raising your CO2 level, and dropping your ph... it will also only MAINTAIN your PH if its on a REVERSE lighting cycle as your display, because the cheato will release O2 and consume CO2 at night from the display... Like i said again, this really has nothing to do with controlling your PH to begin with, having a stable PH is secondary to a correct one

2)I am aware what the term "bio load" means, you said "he will go with bio loading fish"... i guess i was confused by the poor grammar or something, but when you say somebody is "bio loading" it makes it sound like "carb loading" or something like that... sorry!

Actually i can find several 15W light bulbs and hoods that are the appropriate spectrum for a SW tank (prob a nano, but still).. anything that is between 10K and 25K in color, or actinic is completely fine...

Odds are cycle time cant be "cut in half" by adding nicely cured live rock... it can be reduced severely, but a source of ammonia is whats key for the cycle... if he sets up a skimmer, sump full of rock, and has good flow theres no reason he couldnt start adding a clean up crew (snails, hermits etc) and maybe a fish or 2 within a couple weeks max...

Real recap:
Using old sand (other than a cup or 2 to seed your new sand) is bad news, dont do it
Using HOB filters is ok at best, unless highly modified... in the long run it will be cheaper (vs paying for filter pads, time in changing) to set up a sump, and not have to worry about it...
A skimmer is really the primary export of "bad things" in your fish tank... you can get away without one, but you can also get away with "pulling out" (only for so long, then it bites you in the ass) and it also costs more to do 2x water changes in salt per year, than it does to save and buy one... plus your tank will be even happier..
The important thing about lighting is SPECTRUM, not watts (unless we are talking about reef tanks and corals, anemones etc)

My fingers hurt, and i need another beer


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

The cheapest way i would set up a 55 gal:

29 Gal sump (tank off craigs list, whatever can fit in your stand, the bigger the better...) and add some baffles
Return pump: Mag drive pump, around 1000GPH after head loss
Overflow box: cheap off ebay, rated for 1200 GPH 
Rock for your tank: Marcorocks.com has great deals on pre cured rock... 99$ for 55lb boxes, i would get 2 but you could start with one... 
Sand: marco rocks is having a deal 99$ for 160 lbs... sell 60 lbs locally or something for 1$ per lb
Box of salt: 200 gal for 44$ delivered, Instant Ocean salt is what i use
Skimmer: 100$, watch ebay for a good deal
2 Maxi jet mods for flow in the future... 60$
Buy a RO/DI unit... its cheaper in the long run over buying water 130$ or so

And i would encourage you to shop around craigs list and ebay to find used stuff for cheap...


----------



## NakedSavage (Apr 9, 2008)

LOL ok then canisters are out.... ive been reading alittle and ive seen topics about ppl useing canisters for saltwater.... but they are pretty old, thats why i was fighting it alittle.

I realize in my first post i worded it so that it seemed i wanted to ... cheap out... but im not opposed to buying equipment i need i just wanted to know how far i could go with what i had, like with the lighting.. was it good enough, with the correct bulbs, for what im setting up... but with that link redbellyman posted i will just buy a t5(thanks again) and if it was possable to keep the canisters and not havta buy more for filtering the tank.... but i am now looking into sumps.

I DO appreciate all of your input despite the arguing thats happening, and i am gratefull to all of you. Thanks

Now im off to my 4months of reading, lol Ill be checking in to see if anyone posts anything els... if theres anything u want to add please do. When im ready to build this tank ill post updates.


----------



## redbellyman21 (Jun 27, 2004)

in the end I think we are on the same page, I too agree that blowing money is silly, I thought however he might have HOB filters, and also could set it up and start cycle, You got me on the LSand but I was referring to mature LR more than LSand, I meant to get live sand from store so sorry there... I see how I typed to fast or in a hurry and lost shot of grammer. I just didnt like the bosing me around style attacks.. I am not saying it cost effective to blow mola on fish and watch em die, or have a tank turn into an algae farm, I just know that until a refugium is established chemical filtration is not a bad thing. I also dont recommend it but I know several managers of mine who have canisters running their SPS tanks.. So I mean the level of energy put into tank plays a role too. I love my pre fuilter socks that i can wash, I have them, I use them, but on my 33 long lps I dotn have space for sump, so I have a ac110 refugium, and a tetra 50-75 thingy and I replace pads weekly since they are filter and carbon pads.. Ultimately I could use just the refugium, But I had it laying around and a 10 pack of filter replacements are 5 bucks. I always said measure twice and cut once, I even used it here. and we have all done stupid things with our tanks at one point. I am ashamed to admit it, but I took a piece of lr from a friend, didnt quarentine it, and my whole tank almost died of ick.. so yeah even with experiance I still make mkstakes.. is what I was getting at. we all have them, and it is better to plan ahead.. I like ur advice and respect you, just didnt like the "all the stuff on here is trash dont listen to them" you know?


----------



## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer (Aug 22, 2006)

Didn't read the whole thread but if it hasn't been said yet get a refractometer screw hydrometers. I got away with using my little deep six for awhile but I learned the hard way a couple of weeks ago, they really can be waaaay off.


----------



## shiver905 (May 27, 2009)

be creative.

If you like diys.

Put a underwater water light in your canister, Put some cheato in it,heater, liver rock rubble..
Make shure its water tight.

There you go a cheapo sump...... I dont know how big ur canister is, But i dont thing a skimmer would work out.

If you really wanna go cheap, and really dont want to deal with drilling (overflow boxes scare the sh*t outta me).
here how id set it up. With the canister being modded.

Live rock
tank
hang on the back skimmer (something decent quality)
Ur canister (if its big enough)
Ro/DI --its a MUST save urself
heater,test kit cheato, salt 
YOu could use any light you want.. if you have a choice in bulb - Id use higher kelvin bulbs. Not a 6000 something plant bulb.


----------



## NakedSavage (Apr 9, 2008)

thanks for your input shiver, my canisters arnt really big but i kinda like the idea of haveing cheato in there and my canisters are clear so i wouldnt even havta put a light in it but just pointing at it.... im gonna look into this.


----------

