# parasites



## Honda99_300ex (Apr 18, 2003)

i was just wondering about something, everyone always reccomends not to use feeders and crays and stuff from creeks that are near our houses because of parasites.....but what about the wild caught P's, i'm sure there are parasites in S.A. too right? are they different parasites or what, i was just wondering.what would be the difference?


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

*_Moved to Diseases and Parasites Forum_*


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

they have been quarentined first - and not simply taken out the river and placed in your tank.

using wild caught food is acceptable as long as you quarentine it before adding it to your fish


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Wild caught P's are okay to intruduce to your tank since if these fish carry desease, I would guess it would not be serious to any other P. If your wild P, which most are, has a desease that it brought from the amazon, then apparently it must be something it is able to live with. If so, then any other P will be able to live with it also. If it is not fatal in the wild P, it will be okay if any other P.

~Dj


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

InSinUAsian said:


> Wild caught P's are okay to intruduce to your tank since if these fish carry desease, I would guess it would not be serious to any other P. If your wild P, which most are, has a desease that it brought from the amazon, then apparently it must be something it is able to live with. If so, then any other P will be able to live with it also. If it is not fatal in the wild P, it will be okay if any other P.
> 
> ~Dj


 I disagree... Most fish that are wild caught can harbor parasites (both internal and external) but their immune system can usually fend them off. Stress from being caught, housed in a crowded holding facility, shipped across an ocean, only to be housed in another crowded facility to be sold off can suppress their immune system enough for the parasite to take hold. If not properly quarantined and placed into a small volume of water (like an aquarium) with your precious collection, parasites/disease can spread rapidly.


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## Honda99_300ex (Apr 18, 2003)

And it's not like they are quarintined for very long either, these guys ship the cariba a couple days after thet get them, i was just curious about this


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

DonH said:


> I disagree...


Then please elaborate on the idea that at least 75% of P's destined for the home aquarium are wild caught, the exception being reds and spilos, and why yet more people have not reported any incedents? Most all P's are wild caught Caribe, Terns, Piraya, Rhoms, Brantii, Elongatus, Etc, Etc. I have yet to hear of a P that someone just bought and introduced to thier tank, bring some kind of desease that completely wiped out other P's. If you have heard of this, please post a link to the thread( As I complete admit I may be wrong). Please post a link that will refute my "guess", as I stated in my previos post, that I "guess" such a desease will not be transfered to other P's in the home aquarium and have deadly results, if it does not harm the original adversely.

I believe you are making a generalization about P imune systems, or even if such a thing exists. You cannot apply human charecteristics to fish. Although it may seem like common sense, until sciense proves otherwise or even in favor of, such generalizations about P's cannot be made.

In short, I do understand what you mean when talking about P immune system, as that is how it works in humans. BUT, you cannot always apply the way that human physiology functions to other animals without proper scientific information. Frank has tought me this much.

~Dj


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

I'm not sure what kind of information you want me to produce... 


> I believe you are making a generalization about P imune systems, or even if such a thing exists.


No need to provide a link for this one. Do a search on the web for "fish immune system" and I'm sure you will find a few thousand links regarding this issue. Unless piranha are not fish...

Produce links to what??? This whole forum is about disease and parasites of piranha (wild caught and captive bred). You don't think that these ailments do not spread to other piranha in the same tank? Or you want me to find a thread that specifically says "I just put a wild caught piranha and it spread a disease and killed all of my fish!"

You stated:


> Wild caught P's are okay to intruduce to your tank since if these fish carry desease, I would guess it would not be serious to any other P.


 If ANY fish carries a contagious disease and you put it in your tank regardless the fish's origin, it will spread and possibly kill your other fish. This is not a piranha only issue. It is about the mechanism by which disease and/or parasite is spread from one fish to another in an aquarium. I am simply stating that for proper fishkeeping always practice proper quaranting procedures before adding a new fish to your collection regardless of it being freshly wild caught or captive bred. I know many do not but that is the owner's choice...

Nowhere did I make a comparison between fish behavior and humans. 


> In short, I do understand what you mean when talking about P immune system, as that is how it works in humans. BUT, you cannot always apply the way that human physiology functions to other animals without proper scientific information.


I said...


> Stress from being caught, housed in a crowded holding facility, shipped across an ocean, only to be housed in another crowded facility to be sold off


 I wasn't talking about the history of slavery


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

DonH said:


> I wasn't talking about the history of slavery


Who said you were?

Next, please explain to me how a fish that carries a desease and is NOT affected adversely by it will somehow transfer a desease to your home tank that WILL affect them adversely?

Again, all fish that imported from the wild are housed with each other. They spend a few days in the retailers tank (Ron, George) and then are sometimes sent out same day to hobbiest. I have yet to hear about home P keepers reporting fish they recieved transfering desease to thier fish they already had.



> This whole forum is about disease and parasites of piranha (wild caught and captive bred).


This forum is dedicated to P desease, I wont argue that. But I will argue that 99.9% of the deseases that people report here are fungal/bacterial/parasitic deseases that originate from NON-PIRANHA fish. When I say please provide a link to prove me wrong, I am asking for a link where a member showed that a desease that was carried by a wild caught P, wreaked havoc on his home tank. That is all. Nothing that should be too hard for someone that claims this happends. I only refute this idea, because I have yet to see such a post. IF you are going to disaggree with my original post, please provide a link.

~Dj


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> DonH Posted on May 18 2003, 03:20 AM ...Most fish that are wild caught can harbor parasites (both internal and external) but their immune system can usually fend them off. Stress from being caught, housed in a crowded holding facility, shipped across an ocean, only to be housed in another crowded facility to be sold off can suppress their immune system enough for the parasite to take hold. If not properly quarantined and placed into a small volume of water (like an aquarium) with your precious collection, parasites/disease can spread rapidly.


DonH is correct. What some of you do not realize, all fishes exported from the Amazon are treated before being shipped. But that does not guarantee your fish will not be a carrier of some other type internal organism. Indeed one of the topics presently being discussed by scientists from Spain and French is for countries like Brazil that they do parasitic and disease tests that they do not hard coldwater parasites.

You should always quarantine any new fish before introducing it to the established tank. That is plain common sense and long standing practice.



> But I will argue that 99.9% of the deseases that people report here are fungal/bacterial/parasitic deseases that originate from NON-PIRANHA fish.


 Do not be fooled by statistics, for every report that originates that their pirana got the disease from other species, 10 other report differently, you just don't hear about it as often.

As for producing links, I'm working on it. If you check in Piranha Science, you will find information about host specific parasites, but also portions that I did not publish about other parasites that can be transfected to your aquarium. Never assume that just because you don't see it, its not there. Taking that attitude puts your fish in danger.


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

What I dont understand then, is if a parasite is infecting a fish that is wild cought and does not kill it (to put it simply) then how can it be dangerous to the tank P's? Granted it will spread the parasite, but if it doesnt kill the imported P, how can it kill the tank P?

Frank, if you say this is not the case then I will take you word as the truth as far as you know. I dont want you to have to go through the trouble of finding the link, as I know you, more then anyone else, is able to produce links to support your statements.

As for DonH, if what frank says is true, the perhaps I was wrong. I will be the first to say that some ideas that are new to me I am a little skeptical of untill I see proof. In this case I guess I was wrong. Good for you.

~Dj

~Dj


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> InSinUAsian Posted on May 18 2003, 05:17 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What I dont understand then, is if a parasite is infecting a fish that is wild cought and does not kill it (to put it simply) then how can it be dangerous to the tank P's? Granted it will spread the parasite, but if it doesnt kill the imported P, how can it kill the tank P?


That is a good question and I'll try to explain. Because as I stated above, fish are treated before export. If you note, Ron takes exceptional pains to be sure fish he sells meets a certain standard in health and appearance. I would assume the same as George fishes too. However, not every dealer goes that extra mile nor do hobbyists that sell or trade piranas with other people. There have been situations where a pirana has died and the hobbyist is left wondering, what happened? Granted this could be bad care, but bad care itself can trigger the immune system. Then you also have the vitamins missing in pirana diet that are normally found in the wild that help the immune system. I don't argue that pirana generally have a good immune system. Often times they do not get sick because they are scavengers. If for some reason your tank gets stressed either through a mechanical failure or introduction of an organism, good immune system or not your fish will be transfected. That is why you read reports here of eye problems or fungal. Some people have not even given their pirana live feeders yet contract the fish contracts the disease.



> I dont want you to have to go through the trouble of finding the link


I don't have trouble producing links. I read much material in PDF format and links to Fishes Immune System for piranas and associated forms is discussed. If you change your mind, I can lay 2 or 3 for starters here, but keep in mind they are technical but very clear as to what causes these problems.

HITH (hole in the head) is another organism that is infected piranas. This was never a problem before until the last 5 or 6 years. Same goes with a few reported cases of whirling disease.

There are many mutagenic strains of pathogens that are being discovered that are drug resistent. And these "super bugs" seem to now be resistant to the "cures" that were relied upon in the past.


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## SnowCichlid (Jan 10, 2003)

thanks for the info guys.... i have a flowerhorn and a pike starring down and flarring...OH-OH... gotta keep an eye on them


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

hastatus said:


> That is why you read reports here of eye problems or fungal. Some people have not even given their pirana live feeders yet contract the fish contracts the disease.


I did not know this. I aggree that I am not to educated on P deseases. That is why, until just recently, I keep my nose and advise out of the P desease forum. I always thought that given no external exposure, fish are usually quite immune to most deseases due simply to seclusion.

As for desease brought in on other p's that came from the wild, I will now assume that spreading of deasease is significantly higher when the original P's are in less the prestive health or stressed. I guess this is the rule for most deseases, eh?

We learn something new everyday.

~Dj


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> InSinUAsian Posted on May 18 2003, 05:41 AM ....We learn something new everyday.


DonH is very skilled in diseases and parasites. Please learn from him.


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