# starting a 90 gal reef



## acb (Nov 9, 2004)

Ive always wanted a reef tank, and now im on the road to accomplishing my goal. a while ago i had made some quickcrete live rock, which recently got done leaching. I put rocks in alot of other tanks, and i came up a little short for the amount for my reef tank. no worries though. I also have quickcrete playsand for the bed. I built a stand out of 2x4s, and a box for my 250 watt halide( i also have a 36'' flourecenta), which will later be replaced by a finished canopy and base. for the sump, i have a tidepool, with magdrive 800gph pump. also an aquaclear powerhead. I plan to buy a skimmer in a week or 2.
just recently i got a emerald crab some snails, and hermit crabs. i also got a pair of saddle back clowns, 2 cardinal fis, and a coral beauty angelfish. Everything looks good so far. The only problem is the smaller clown likes to go into the upper corner after feedings for a matter of hours. Then it will go back down and swim around for the rest of the night. it only happens after feedings.it has visable markings in its head, possibly an injury from the crab? I dont think any of these fish are aggresive enough to attack the clown. when i saw it and did a water test, and the perameters are perfect. Everyother fish acclimated nicely, so i think its just a gimpy clown. 
im planning to have zoas, and shrooms, and some other corals, im not sure what types yet. Does anyone know the earliest corals can be added?

heres some pics of my progress so far

i had to carve out an area for the sump tubes
View attachment 159945

unfinished stand, settling out
View attachment 159946

settling out, and blue light
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saddleback clowns
View attachment 159948

emerald crab
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emerald crab 2
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cardinal fish
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tank shot, i put up the halide today
View attachment 159938

cardinal fish
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cardinal fish
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coral beauty 
View attachment 159942

I was wondering if someone could id this, its a piece of coral, but im not sure if its alive or not
View attachment 159944

View attachment 159939

close up...it has an iradescent (sp) look to it, which makes me think its alive.
View attachment 159943

fish swimmin'
View attachment 159952


the live rock i made isnt so alive yet, but they look great.... i mixed crushed coral in with my sand, to give it a natural look.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

have you seen any polyp extension on that coral? 
might be porities..

i cant tell what rocks you made and what is live rock.

have you tested your alkalinity, calcium and phosphates?

how long was this thing running before you put all of those fish in?

are you putting any sheets of algae in the tank?

there definately isnt enough algae on the rocks for that emerald crab to live off of. eventually if you add corals it will most likely pick at them.

one 250 watt halide will be ok if you keep it the way it is with a stack of rocks with corals on one side and open space on the other but definately not enough for the whole tank.

what skimmers are you looking at?


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## acb (Nov 9, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> have you seen any polyp extension on that coral?
> might be porities..
> 
> i cant tell what rocks you made and what is live rock.
> ...


The rocks that are more grey are the ones i made, i guess i did a good job if you cant tell.
theres no polyp extension, whats porities? 
The tank was running for about 5 days, then i introduced the fish....it is a little early, but all the LR i have has been in established tanks (not reef tanks) for a while 
by Sheets of algae do you mean like scraping the coraline algae from a different tank? if thats the case, i plan to soon. How fast does the coraline algae spread? Ive never had that much in my trigger tank, but im guessing with a halide it would be realitivly fast, right? 
for lighting, i have the halide and 2 flourescents on the other side, (the same lights that are in pics #2, #3)....i wish i could have 2 more halides, but i figured i dont have the live rock for the other side(or enough cash), so it doesnt make sense to light sand. 
i think im going to buy appot05's Berlin red sea skimmer, hes giving me a pretty good deal for it, along with zoas.
I was also wondering about introducing corals, i know there is a 6 month waiting period, but is it necssary?
thanks for the help


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## jacks (Aug 6, 2007)

acb said:


> have you seen any polyp extension on that coral?
> might be porities..
> 
> i cant tell what rocks you made and what is live rock.
> ...


The rocks that are more grey are the ones i made, i guess i did a good job if you cant tell.
theres no polyp extension, whats porities? 
The tank was running for about 5 days, then i introduced the fish....it is a little early, but all the LR i have has been in established tanks (not reef tanks) for a while 
by Sheets of algae do you mean like scraping the coraline algae from a different tank? if thats the case, i plan to soon. How fast does the coraline algae spread? Ive never had that much in my trigger tank, but im guessing with a halide it would be realitivly fast, right? 
for lighting, i have the halide and 2 flourescents on the other side, (the same lights that are in pics #2, #3)....i wish i could have 2 more halides, but i figured i dont have the live rock for the other side(or enough cash), so it doesnt make sense to light sand. 
i think im going to buy appot05's Berlin red sea skimmer, hes giving me a pretty good deal for it, along with zoas.
I was also wondering about introducing corals, i know there is a 6 month waiting period, but is it necssary?
thanks for the help








[/quote]

i don know anything about reef tanks but i can tell you it looks f***** A


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## acb (Nov 9, 2004)

thanks


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

acb said:


> The rocks that are more grey are the ones i made, i guess i did a good job if you cant tell.
> theres no polyp extension, whats porities?
> The tank was running for about 5 days, then i introduced the fish....it is a little early, but all the LR i have has been in established tanks (not reef tanks) for a while
> by Sheets of algae do you mean like scraping the coraline algae from a different tank? if thats the case, i plan to soon. How fast does the coraline algae spread? Ive never had that much in my trigger tank, but im guessing with a halide it would be realitivly fast, right?
> ...


porities is a type of hard coral that creates similar coralites to what your trying to ID. if you havent seen any polyp extension then it liekly that is just the skeleton of the coral covered with algae..

that is way way to early to add fish, the rocks may not have needed to cure but there still needs to be a cycle to develop the bacteria in the rest of the tank necessary for the break down of waste..

additionally the sand is not "live sand" it will seed from the "live Rock" and eventually become part of the filtration of the tank but it will be a while. Im not really familiar with quickcrete sand or how effective it will be as a reef tank substrate, if its clean enough for reef use or if it willeffect or interfear with calcium or alkalinity levels. twice as much live rock also would help in your natural filtration.

the sheets of algae im talking about is food, nori used for sushi roll wrappers.. since it appears there is defentaly not enough on the rock to support your critters.

coraline can spread in a tank with very little light as long as the water paramters are good meaning proper ph, calcium, alkalinity and magnesium and low phosphates.. more light does not necessarily mean more coraline, if you look at established tank coraline grows in place light doesnt reach, water circulation is just as important to coraline growth as water parameters and lastly lighting. did you fill the tank with tap water?

one more 250 halide would be sufficent rule of thumb is one halide for every 2 square feet.. besides if you put a halide in the middle over the center brace good amount of the highest intensity light would be blocked, it would be a waste.

what kind of reflector are you using with the 250 halide?

what kind of florecents are these 36 inch bulbs? t5, vho, normal out put?

if your going to build a canopy you could upgrade to much better reflectors and bulbs for the same cost as buying an all in one set up like a coralife or current usa halide/t5 combo.. the reflectors in those hoods arent bad but are certainly no where near as good as a lumeric reflector.


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## acb (Nov 9, 2004)

I have a emperor 330 filter on my tank now, and i used the biowheels, and filter pads from my trigger tank, i also put filter pads in the sump to establish a better bacteria colony. 
I have a lot of algae waffers, and spirinula, i'll throw some in the tank tonight (nocternal) and see if the crab goes for it
i have a very powerful power head in there along with an 800gph sump, and the hang on filter, the current in the tank is very high.
I did fill the tank with tap water, i used an API declhlorinator, and let the water sit for about 2-3 days.
I made a reflector out of alumminum, the back is bent at 90 degrees, and the front is bent at a 45. I tested the way the bulb would work by using a flash light in the reflector. 90 and 45 seemed to be the best way, because the light from the back is directed and reflected downwards, directly onto the liverock. The inside of my box (soon to be conopy) housing the halide is painted with a shinny chrome spraypaint.the light appears to be reflecting very well. 
the florecents are vho. in the canopy im putting in a few t-8 lights that will be overdriven.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

acb said:


> I have a emperor 330 filter on my tank now, and i used the biowheels, and filter pads from my trigger tank, i also put filter pads in the sump to establish a better bacteria colony.
> I have a lot of algae waffers, and spirinula, i'll throw some in the tank tonight (nocternal) and see if the crab goes for it
> i have a very powerful power head in there along with an 800gph sump, and the hang on filter, the current in the tank is very high.
> I did fill the tank with tap water, i used an API declhlorinator, and let the water sit for about 2-3 days.
> ...


bio wheels filter pads ect ect all i see is nitrate this and nitrates that. get rid of that crap..

basically forget everything you know about freshwater tanks and most of what youve been getting away with on the fowlr, if you want a good sucessfull reef tank you have to change your approach drastically..

reef filtration you dont want to trap stuff in the filter for bacteria to break it down because it will never break it down fast enough, export is the name of the game. there are several export methods chemical, biological and mechanical.

chemical would be with activated carbon, high grade, low grade carbon will leach phosphates into the water which fuels algae growth and inhibits calcification.

mechanical is the reef world is primarily a skimmer but can also be filter socks changed or cleaned often (at minimum monthly)

biological is the community of cleaner crews nd micro and macro organisms that break things down, you already ahve snails and hermits that s a good start and as your rock devlops more life you wil have more pods and bacteria to process nutrients and waste, the other form of biological filtration is the macro algaes and corals that use nutrients in the water column.

a bio wheel 330 and 800 gph pump and "very powerful powerhead" might sound like alot but consider for one that 800 gph return pump depending on what model could be loosing 20-30 percent of that rating due to head pressure, that alone gives you aournd 600 gph. or less then 10 times turn over. i dont know the gph on the 330 but the 350 is rated for a 75 gallon tank so im sure its not all that much, very powerful powerhead, 800- 1200 gph (maybe) so lets say you have 2400 gph total at the most dived that by 90 about 26 times turn over, thats not a bad start, you should be ok with soft corals with that but it might take some careful positing of those sources of movement to get the most out of it..

using the dechlorinator was asmart thing but hardly comes close to removing the endless amount of stuff that you get from tap water that you dont want in a reef tank most all of which is going to result in algae. seriously look into ro/di system, it will help your fowlr and reef tanks. you seem to be very interested in getting some nice colorfull coraline, using ro/di will be one ofthe smartest things you do to achieve that goal.

the DIY reflector should be fine short term but your definately not gettign the most out of your light, investing in a good reflector is never a bad thing. think about it like this you have a car with a turbo and tons of HP but you put the crappiest tires you could find on it and your wasting all that performance..

still never answered teh question of calcium, alkalinity, magnesium, phosphate testing at minimum the alk and ca should be tested. i would say work out some of your basic things and get the tank running stable and proper before blowing money on corals as an experiment to se if they can surive the harsh environment of frankentank..


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## acb (Nov 9, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> I have a emperor 330 filter on my tank now, and i used the biowheels, and filter pads from my trigger tank, i also put filter pads in the sump to establish a better bacteria colony.
> I have a lot of algae waffers, and spirinula, i'll throw some in the tank tonight (nocternal) and see if the crab goes for it
> i have a very powerful power head in there along with an 800gph sump, and the hang on filter, the current in the tank is very high.
> I did fill the tank with tap water, i used an API declhlorinator, and let the water sit for about 2-3 days.
> ...


bio wheels filter pads ect ect all i see is nitrate this and nitrates that. get rid of that crap..

basically forget everything you know about freshwater tanks and most of what youve been getting away with on the fowlr, if you want a good sucessfull reef tank you have to change your approach drastically..

reef filtration you dont want to trap stuff in the filter for bacteria to break it down because it will never break it down fast enough, export is the name of the game. there are several export methods chemical, biological and mechanical.

chemical would be with activated carbon, high grade, low grade carbon will leach phosphates into the water which fuels algae growth and inhibits calcification.

mechanical is the reef world is primarily a skimmer but can also be filter socks changed or cleaned often (at minimum monthly)

biological is the community of cleaner crews nd micro and macro organisms that break things down, you already ahve snails and hermits that s a good start and as your rock devlops more life you wil have more pods and bacteria to process nutrients and waste, the other form of biological filtration is the macro algaes and corals that use nutrients in the water column.

using the dechlorinator was asmart thing but hardly comes close to removing the endless amount of stuff that you get from tap water that you dont want in a reef tank most all of which is going to result in algae. seriously look into ro/di system, it will help your fowlr and reef tanks. you seem to be very interested in getting some nice colorfull coraline, using ro/di will be one ofthe smartest things you do to achieve that goal.

the DIY reflector should be fine short term but your definately not gettign the most out of your light, investing in a good reflector is never a bad thing. think about it like this you have a car with a turbo and tons of HP but you put the crappiest tires you could find on it and your wasting all that performance..

still never answered teh question of calcium, alkalinity, magnesium, phosphate testing at minimum the alk and ca should be tested. i would say work out some of your basic things and get the tank running stable and proper before blowing money on corals as an experiment to se if they can surive the harsh environment of frankentank..
[/quote]
The decholorinator also takes out choloramines, copper, and some other stuff
I realize i have to get a new reflector at some point, but i have seen some of the "retro reflectors" in use, and they dont reflect the light right. 
also my reflector only cost 4 dollars....
my friend is a lfs pwner and has a degree in marine biology, his store mainly does tank maintainence. Anyways he has a canister filter on his reef tank, along with a skimmer (and the retro halide light). but he said he used the canister for movement. thats the reasoning i have mine on my tank. I also have it because there is benificial bacteria in the pads, which i used to stablize the tank more. So if i take out the filter pads, and just use the filter for circulation, and for the biowheels, would the filter be more practical? or should i just take it off, and forget about it?
I havent tested my calcium, alkalinity, magnesium, or phosphates, but ill get on it asap.
youve been a big help so far, thanks
......update
so it turns out i lost my test for alk and mag test, along with the directions.....but ill hunt em down tonight. 
i did test the kh and it is the lowest shade on the chart. Is that good or bad?
thanks


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

acb said:


> The decholorinator also takes out choloramines, copper, and some other stuff
> I realize i have to get a new reflector at some point, but i have seen some of the "retro reflectors" in use, and they dont reflect the light right.
> also my reflector only cost 4 dollars....
> my friend is a lfs pwner and has a degree in marine biology, his store mainly does tank maintainence. Anyways he has a canister filter on his reef tank, along with a skimmer (and the retro halide light). but he said he used the canister for movement. thats the reasoning i have mine on my tank. I also have it because there is benificial bacteria in the pads, which i used to stablize the tank more. So if i take out the filter pads, and just use the filter for circulation, and for the biowheels, would the filter be more practical? or should i just take it off, and forget about it?
> ...


use of the dechlorinator was definately good but tap water in general is in 90 percent or the time bad

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm

i would take the pads and bio wheel out of the filter and just let it run for circulation unless you have another power head then just ditch the HOB. you said you have a sump set up and the tank is reef ready so it is surface skimming. once you get the skimmer in the sump that should start pulling out alot of the stuff you dont want.. it cant hurt to run some activated carbon though or some gfo (granular feric oxide) to remove some of the phosphates you undoubtedly introdeuced with the tap water. you should be able to find puraphos or phosban at a lfs (or rowaphos but its expensive) they usually come with a bag to put it in, jsut read the label and follow the directions. stay away from phospahte sponge or anything that is white, those are aluminum based and were used more before the discovery and development of teh iron based products. GFO is less likely to leach phospahtes back into the water once it has reached its absortion capacity and does not leach harmful metals into the water. there have been mixed result of research regarding the effects of aluminum based phosphate removers but its pretty muh universally accepted that GFO is a better phosphate removal media.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

acb said:


> so it turns out i lost my test for alk and mag test, along with the directions.....but ill hunt em down tonight.
> i did test the kh and it is the lowest shade on the chart. Is that good or bad?
> thanks


does the test range go from yellow to blue?

if so then its likely your alk is too low, it should be in the middle.

the best test for alk and calcium are titration test, these require you to count the number of drops or volume of test reagent it takes to change a sample from one color to another. these are generally the most accurate. .and instead of bieng like oh my alk is at level medium blue you can know that its at 9dkh

look for salifert, seachem or lamonte test or online elos seems to be a very popular newer trusted test kit producer . these kits usually are going to cost more then the basic kits from API or redsea but will give you much better results and when your trying to protect a multi hundred ot thousnad dollar investment whats the point of skimping on a tet kit?


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## acb (Nov 9, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> so it turns out i lost my test for alk and mag test, along with the directions.....but ill hunt em down tonight.
> i did test the kh and it is the lowest shade on the chart. Is that good or bad?
> thanks


does the test range go from yellow to blue?

if so then its likely your alk is too low, it should be in the middle.

the best test for alk and calcium are titration test, these require you to count the number of drops or volume of test reagent it takes to change a sample from one color to another. these are generally the most accurate. .and instead of bieng like oh my alk is at level medium blue you can know that its at 9dkh

look for salifert, seachem or lamonte test or online elos seems to be a very popular newer trusted test kit producer . these kits usually are going to cost more then the basic kits from API or redsea but will give you much better results and when your trying to protect a multi hundred ot thousnad dollar investment whats the point of skimping on a tet kit?
[/quote]
thanks for the info. ive seen the phosban kits ect, at my lfs, ill be sure to pick something up.
My test does range from yellow to blue, and its a very very light blue. 
my test kit is a tetratest.
to even everything out, should i use a product like the kent buffers?
a new test kit will be added to my list of thousands of things to buy.
what does a skimmer actually take out....like broken down food and waste?


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

acb said:


> so it turns out i lost my test for alk and mag test, along with the directions.....but ill hunt em down tonight.
> i did test the kh and it is the lowest shade on the chart. Is that good or bad?
> thanks


does the test range go from yellow to blue?

if so then its likely your alk is too low, it should be in the middle.

the best test for alk and calcium are titration test, these require you to count the number of drops or volume of test reagent it takes to change a sample from one color to another. these are generally the most accurate. .and instead of bieng like oh my alk is at level medium blue you can know that its at 9dkh

look for salifert, seachem or lamonte test or online elos seems to be a very popular newer trusted test kit producer . these kits usually are going to cost more then the basic kits from API or redsea but will give you much better results and when your trying to protect a multi hundred ot thousnad dollar investment whats the point of skimping on a tet kit?
[/quote]
thanks for the info. ive seen the phosban kits ect, at my lfs, ill be sure to pick something up.
My test does range from yellow to blue, and its a very very light blue. 
my test kit is a tetratest.
to even everything out, should i use a product like the kent buffers?
a new test kit will be added to my list of thousands of things to buy.
what does a skimmer actually take out....like broken down food and waste?
[/quote]

you could use kent buffer but you could just use baking soda but if your alk is low then its likely your calcium is low since the two are typically raise and fall in ratio of each other. i would wait until you can test your calcium first and use a two part product to keep you calcium and alk in balance..

alot of new people think oh what ever i can just dose the two seperately and test to balance them my self but its really a headache.

there are a number of two parts ont eh market that really make it a no brainer and since you have little to no organisims consuming calcium at this point you wont need to dose alot to keep it at level.just ask for a two part alkalinity and calcium product..

either way a titration type test will be much better so you can get a better idea of exactly what you levels are so you can have an idea of how much to dose.. nothing is going to tell you to increase you alk from light blue to medium blue in a medium size tank does xx amount..

here is a usefull tool for working out these types of things

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chemcalc.html

skimmers work by creating bubles that string together protients, the stronger the bonds of these protiens are the longer the bubbles hold together until eventually they hold together long enough to get lifed up the lifter tube and spill over into the collection cup. so now if there are particles that are smal enough or the prottiens in teh skimmer are dense enough those particles can be lifted up out of the skimmer

if the skimmer has a prefilter on it though then most stuff will get trapped in there. really the idea is to have a diverse enough life in the tank and good feeding habits so there is not excess food breaking down and if there is then the snails and hermits will break it down to the point that the skimmer is mostly just removing such fine particles of waste that you wouldnt even know it until you see the nasty sludge that its producing.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

im not sure explained the protien skimmer function with the correct terms but heres a great read baout them

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-06/...ature/index.php


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## acb (Nov 9, 2004)

thanks....i rearranged my tank, ill post pictures tomarrow. also the little coraline algae i had, i scraped on other rocks. I took the filter pads out aswell.
the next things i hope to buy are
protein skimmer
seachem reef pack fundamentals, and enhancer
seachem reef buffer
seachem calcium
phosban sock
hopefully this is enough to get started and pick up some zoas, and shrooms?


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## piranawick (Dec 1, 2004)

Wow , I just wanted to jump in. Hey Nismo great info, I have wanted to jump into the reef/sw hobby where would someone with no sw info go to get some good info on start up etc.


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## acb (Nov 9, 2004)

piranawick said:


> Wow , I just wanted to jump in. Hey Nismo great info, I have wanted to jump into the reef/sw hobby where would someone with no sw info go to get some good info on start up etc.


reefcentral is an excellent forum, and where i got most of my information. 
when you do get it set up, post it on here. Ive already gotten so much help from nismo driver.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

acb said:


> thanks....i rearranged my tank, ill post pictures tomarrow. also the little coraline algae i had, i scraped on other rocks. I took the filter pads out aswell.
> the next things i hope to buy are
> protein skimmer
> seachem reef pack fundamentals, and enhancer
> ...


i would say instead of the seachem reef pack (UNNECESSARY) reef buffer and calcium just get a bakanced to part like kent tek CB, ESV bionic, of some other two part balance system.. with the calcium and reef buffer you will have to dose differnt amounts of each and the direction of "add 5ml per 10 gallons adaily" or what ever it says do not take for account what your levels are at and do not coincide with the dosing regimine of the other additives.

rule of thumb if your not testing for it dont add it and alot of these things like essential elements are redundant you can buy three or four differnt things like reef boost essential elenents ect and they will all have the same thing at differnt ratios and then on top of that every time you do a water change ou adding the same stuff the many of the two part solutions also contain some of these same elements such as iodine stronium magnesium calcium ect .. then you have to consider the bottle says add 5ml per 40 gallons.. well wait a second what exactly in that tank is consuming these elements at this rate? do you have coral? is it growing ? how do you know how much iodine or stronium is in your water if your not even testing?

save then money you would spend on all that crap and get ro water

two part systems are designed to replenish calcium and alkalinity at the same ratios that they are depleted at

its a no brainer

you test on day one 
you dose the reccomended amount of two part to raise your levels to the desired point 
you test an hour or more later to confirm what it has been raised to
you test the next day
you dose the amount that is rcomended to to raise levels to the desired point 
test in a few hours 
test the next day
the amount you need to add should be th esame as the previous day if you didnt do any water changes or make any other drasticc changes, 
after a week you should be able to establish tthat you tank needs xx ml of part a and b every day to maintain a fairly level calcium of around 400 +/- 20 and DKH of 9 +/- 1

plus unless your seeing coraline grow or you have any types pf hard coral your calcium level should be extremely stable with very little depletion, dont just do what a label tells you to do use test kits to knwo exactly what your tank needs and when..


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## acb (Nov 9, 2004)

updated pics after I rearanged and added rocks. I added some sand dollars, a fan coral, and some shells that i got last time my family and I were in the carribean
Full shot
View attachment 160059

left side
View attachment 160060

right side
View attachment 160064

Thanks for all the help Nismo Driver!


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