# Water Hardness is at 429.60!



## druxboyz (Apr 20, 2004)

just did a 30% water change, then tested my GH, and its at about 24dGH which came out to be about 429.6 ppm... i know that's considered very hard water. can a rhom live in that kind of water as long as it stays constant?

ph is 8.0 and my tap is about 7.8


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

i would add some peat. it would soften your water and lower your ph.


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## druxboyz (Apr 20, 2004)

added a xtra large water softener pillow, i'll see how well it works









i dont think i've ever seen peat moss in a lfs or pet shop. peat moss would be in the fish section? i believe i've seen some sort of moss in the amphibian section, is that where peat moss is usually at?


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2004)

druxboyz said:


> i dont think i've ever seen peat moss in a lfs or pet shop. peat moss would be in the fish section? i believe i've seen some sort of moss in the amphibian section, is that where peat moss is usually at?


 No, aquarium peat is different from the whole peat moss sold as terrarium substarte. Here is a link to Fluval aquarium peat: Fluval Aquarium Peat

That being said, I think a piranha might be able to adjust to a pH of 8.0. The pH of the tank will decrease as the aquarium gets older because of the accumulation of organic and nitric acids, anyway. When I was experimented with increasing my water's pH, I had my Spilo's aquarium up above 7.6 and he seemed quite happy with the higher pH.


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## druxboyz (Apr 20, 2004)

well, 4 days after putting in that pillow, and im down to 89ppm


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## smithgrind_who (Mar 26, 2004)

druxboyz Posted: Jul 20 2004 said:


> well, 4 days after putting in that pillow, and im down to 89ppm


Hey druxboyz, I am curious to know who makes your GH kit? 


druxboyz Posted: Jul 16 2004 said:


> added a xtra large water softener pillow, i'll see how well it works


If you are trying to reduce GH in the aquarium, I might suggest using RO water. RO will do a better job removing total dissolved solids.


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## druxboyz (Apr 20, 2004)

im using the aquarium pharmaceuticals GH test kit.

RO water might work, but i already have this pillow. pretty impressive outcome in just 4 days.


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## DonD (Mar 11, 2004)

Im a bit confused. Are you sure dont mean KH and not GH? KH is the measure of carbonate hardness which is the buffering capacity. General hardness applies other dissolved solids, and doesnt really do much by way of buffering.
Also, those softening pillows work on ion exchange, swapping sodium ions for the carbonate ions. This would increase the GH, and lower KH.


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

DonD said:


> Also, those softening pillows work on ion exchange, swapping sodium ions for the carbonate ions. This would increase the GH, and lower KH.


Actually Don, the ion exchange swaps sodium ions (Na+) for calcium (Ca++) and magnesium (Mg++) ions. Thus, "softening" the water by removing minerals that cause high GH but, in it's place, raises the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) of the water. Which is not a good thing for true softwater loving fish...

Good to see you back Mr. Dickson.


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## Jebus (Feb 29, 2004)

So im guessing piranhas like soft water better







.


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## DonD (Mar 11, 2004)

Don, lets hope life gives me the time to post regularly now. 
OK, let me say how I understand it and correct where I am fuddling things up.
KH is the carbonate hardness. This measures the carbonates in the water which are what determines its buffering capacity.
GH is the general hardness which basically covers the dissolved solids aside from the carbonates, stuff like sodium. This really doesnt affect buffering to any great degree, but as it does cover some trace minerals, 0 dGH is not good. GH can get high even for soft water fish, just not ridiculously so, 8 or 9 dGH before it starts becoming an issue.
Total dissolved solids, TDS, is measured by the resistance water give to an electrical probe and measures every damn thing that is in solution.
*sits back and waits for his continuing education*


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

Let's see...

You are correct in your definition of KH (carbonate hardness, alkalinity or buffering capacity). It measures the ability of water to maintain a stable pH by measuring the levels of carbonates (CO3--) or bicarbonates (HCO3-). Notice these are negatively charged ions.

GH is basically the measure of the levels of calcium (Ca++) and magnesium (Mg++) ions in water. This determines if the water is "hard" or "soft". Sodium (Na+) is not an element considered in measuring GH. Notice these are positively charged ions.

TDS (Total Dissolved Solids sometimes referred to as conductivity) is basically a measure of (as you have stated) "every damn thing that is in solution". Which includes every dissolved mineral including sodium.

If you look at crushed coral which is basically calcium carbonate (CaCO3), when it dissolves in water, it dissociates into Ca++ and CO3-- ions. The calcium contributes to a higher GH while the carbonates contribute to a higher buffering capacity. Yet, if you were to use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate or NaHCO3), it dissociates into Na+ and HCO3- ions. The bicarbonate portion will increase KH but the sodium ion will not affect GH whatsoever. The problem is, the extra sodium ions will contribute to a higher TDS. That's the problem with those water softener pillows... It exchanges TWO ions of sodium to take up ONE ion of calcium or magnesium.

Hope all that makes sense. Trying to remember way back in my chemistry class...

Finally, a little bit of chem humor...

Two hydrogen atoms walk into a bar. One says, "I've lost my electron." The other says, "Are you sure?" The first replies, "Yes, I'm positive..."


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## DonD (Mar 11, 2004)

LMAO I wasnt aware chemists were allowed senses of humor.








Thank you sir for that simple, clear and concise explanation. I am far from stupid, but trying to garner the right info from chem texts and having never taken chemistry...biology or anatomy text books I can tear through though. LOL
Though bio chemical stuff DOES make my eyes all fuzzy like.


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## Jebus (Feb 29, 2004)

DonH said:


> Let's see...
> 
> You are correct in your definition of KH (carbonate hardness, alkalinity or buffering capacity). It measures the ability of water to maintain a stable pH by measuring the levels of carbonates (CO3--) or bicarbonates (HCO3-). Notice these are negatively charged ions.
> 
> ...










man if you have any more of those please post them.


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