# Growing Out Rhoms



## fish_sauce (Apr 3, 2004)

Some of you older members may remember me from before. I haven't been on here in a while. I've moved to Taiwan for a while now, and have been out of the hobby. So there is this fish store near where I live. I talked to the owner about the slow growth of rhoms. What he told me shocked me. He told me that many of his customers, as well as himself have grown rhoms to over a foot long, from babies, in half a years time. So I asked him how it was done. He told me that they feed rhoms meat, very little fish. Chicken, beef, etc. But, that's not all. They are feed bones, skin and all. So in Taiwan, we shop for meat at a market, not a supermarket. You buy entire cuts of meat. So for example, they take a chicken wing, cut it to bite size pieces, and feed it to their p's. He said they feed it till their p's are stuffed full. The next day, their bellies will shrink back down to normal. He even said that you can hear the sound of bones being crunched. So I also asked about water changes. They hardly do any water changes at all. He said they are the easiest fish to take care of, very little maintanence. Just feed them meat. I'm thinking that the bones and skin is what we are lacking back home in America, since most of the meat we buy in the supermarkets are deboned, and skinless. I also saw so many varieties of p's, mannies, rhoms, elongs, and even those strawberry macs, or whatever they are called these days now. So, best of luck to you guys growing rhoms, and I hope this piece of info helps. I will log on here from time to time, but I've been busy enjoying life in a different country.


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## fish_sauce (Apr 3, 2004)

One more thing, I don't want to get flooded with questions. I'm hearing this from a store owner here. I didn't actually see one grown out personally, but what he's saying does make sense, since the meat bought here is packaged differently, and also Taiwanese people are lazy about water changes. This is all I know, so no questions about ph, temp, blah blah blah, because I don't know. So hopefully someone here will try it out. And I'm not the only member who has heard of people in Asia growing out rhoms to extreme sizes. Someone else on this board said so a few years back.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

Maybe something with the bone marrow? Thats all I can think of.


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## fish_sauce (Apr 3, 2004)

There's also skin.


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## sick of chiclids (May 25, 2010)

fish_sauce said:


> One more thing, I don't want to get flooded with questions. I'm hearing this from a store owner here. I didn't actually see one grown out personally, but what he's saying does make sense, since the meat bought here is packaged differently, and also Taiwanese people are lazy about water changes. This is all I know, so no questions about ph, temp, blah blah blah, because I don't know. So hopefully someone here will try it out. And I'm not the only member who has heard of people in Asia growing out rhoms to extreme sizes. Someone else on this board said so a few years back.


It might be a case of overly cautious here in the sates&#8230; who knows? I read on here all the time of "huge" "rescued RBP in a small tank, feed feeders and beef heart". I'm not saying it's the right thing to do. But who knows? I'm sticking to what I've been doing for now, but I'd be interested to see some results. A lot of our fish do lack the calcium of raw/live bones.

In addition&#8230; kinda makes sence. A baby rhom can't stay a baby for long in the wild and hope to make it.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

I just can't think of anything in the skin that would help growth. But you never know I guess.


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## fish_sauce (Apr 3, 2004)

sick of chiclids said:


> One more thing, I don't want to get flooded with questions. I'm hearing this from a store owner here. I didn't actually see one grown out personally, but what he's saying does make sense, since the meat bought here is packaged differently, and also Taiwanese people are lazy about water changes. This is all I know, so no questions about ph, temp, blah blah blah, because I don't know. So hopefully someone here will try it out. And I'm not the only member who has heard of people in Asia growing out rhoms to extreme sizes. Someone else on this board said so a few years back.


It might be a case of overly cautious here in the sates&#8230; who knows? I read on here all the time of "huge" "rescued RBP in a small tank, feed feeders and beef heart". I'm not saying it's the right thing to do. But who knows? I'm sticking to what I've been doing for now, but I'd be interested to see some results. A lot of our fish do lack the calcium of raw/live bones.

In addition&#8230; kinda makes sence. A baby rhom can't stay a baby for long in the wild and hope to make it.
[/quote]
I'm not saying to forget about water changes, just a change of diet. I said that they get lazy about water changes, that's all. Of course, water changes always help fish grow even faster.


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## balluupnetme (Oct 23, 2006)

That's crazy ! They're super piranha ! I can imagine because red meat has a lot of protein


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## hecks8094 (May 13, 2008)

makess me want to try it lol


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

Interesting. I've been telling members feeding whole live is the best.even if its dead you can bet its fresh over there.all growing fish need calcium. Bones,marrow, organs, brains ect all have nutrients that can't be found in pellets ect. Only problem I see is I've yet to see a baby or juvi rhom stuff his belly like a rbp would. You could bring video proof here about this n 90% of the members here would cry about piranha can't digest red meat,bones could get caught inside them,chicken isn't in their diet either, ect. Or yeah they'll get big on red meat but won't be healthy, its like someone getting fat from eating cheeseburgers. The far East n Europe discus breeders have been feeding beef for years n have the best quility fish anywhere. I think the owner was stretching the truth a lil. It is kinda interesting that bout any fish I can think of from the jungles, grows fast except some serras. Were the piranha you seen together? Bunch of rhoms together, bunch of Mannies, bunch of elongs. Ect.? If they have fish together then I can believe a rhom filling his belly like a rbp.competition for food changes the way they act getting food n how much they actually eat IMO. Get a rhom to stuff his belly like a rbp n I could see some major growth happening regardless of what's in it. Thanks for the info!! Anything else you can remember would be awesome also. Tankmates, tank sizes, ect.


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## I Can Mate (Apr 8, 2010)

what kind of bone is small enough for a juv to eat?


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## locust (Aug 2, 2005)

I Can Mate said:


> what kind of bone is small enough for a juv to eat?


Fish bones. Juveniles are mainly eating small fish, fish fins/scales in the wild..for calcium .
Wild diet of rhoms is something like 80% fish based, they also eat plant matter, crustaceans and they`ve been found with mammal meat in their stomachs, probably something thats drowned.


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## Blackdude (Feb 28, 2003)

BRUNER247 said:


> If they have fish together then I can believe a rhom filling his belly like a rbp.competition for food changes the way they act getting food n how much they actually eat IMO. Get a rhom to stuff his belly like a rbp n I could see some major growth happening regardless of what's in it.


+1
Check my other post:
http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?/topic/194905-how-to-create-competition-for-food-with-single-serras/


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## locust (Aug 2, 2005)

Blackdude said:


> If they have fish together then I can believe a rhom filling his belly like a rbp.competition for food changes the way they act getting food n how much they actually eat IMO. Get a rhom to stuff his belly like a rbp n I could see some major growth happening regardless of what's in it.


+1
Check my other post:
http://www.piranha-f...-single-serras/
[/quote]

A lot of rhoms fill their bellies anyway..mine do and they just look fat and deep ,with small head/jaw ratios compared to fresh caught wild fish of the same size. One of mine has basically stopped growing length wise at 14ins a couple of years ago , it was 9.5ins 6 or so years ago , so now i feed just once a week on fish foods and some heart so i cant see the benefits of feeding chicken plus skin ( raw skin is nearly 50% fat), and look at the state of that piraya on youtube with all the fatty deposits on its head and hith.. fed on chicken ( small tank granted).
Feeding so the fish get required vitamins and minerals to stave off things like hith is more important i think. If you want to feed meat plus bones then maybe try pinky mice or rat pups , they must have nutritional value. Another member a few years ago provided some info on rhom growing in Asia some of which was that they`re raising fish on auto water changers and making sure there is zero nitrate. Im sure growth has as much to do with tank conditions versus river conditions as far as growth is concerned , which includes the competition to grow quickly so as not to fall victim to a bigger predator, and i think we know that rhoms have a longer lifespan than pygos so wouldnt that be a reason for the natural slower growth rate? A dealer i know has a rhom that got to 12 ins and its been that size for over 10 years now, another came in at 14 ins and grew to 16ins and stopped.
This link may explain why we see long term captive fish with big body small head/jaw ratios.
http://rsbl.royalsoc...0.0401.abstract

Bruner has stated that his juve reds are more streamlined growing in a fast flow..im sure they eat relatively more as well.


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## Sacrifice (Sep 24, 2006)

I have 10 or so convicts in my tank and I know that everytime I toss some fish or shrimp in there they attack it and when the Rhom notices that they are eating he rushes over to investigate. He usually takes a big bite and leaves them the rest. I've yet to see him completely stuff himself. Never have I seen a bulging gut with him.

I also believe that he's yanking your chain about growing them to 12" in 6months.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

locust said:


> A lot of rhoms fill their bellies anyway..mine do and they just look fat and deep ,with small head/jaw ratios compared to fresh caught wild fish of the same size. One of mine has basically stopped growing length wise at 14ins a couple of years ago , it was 9.5ins 6 or so years ago , so now i feed just once a week on fish foods and some heart so i cant see the benefits of feeding chicken plus skin ( raw skin is nearly 50% fat), and look at the state of that piraya on youtube with all the fatty deposits on its head and hith.. fed on chicken ( small tank granted).
> Feeding so the fish get required vitamins and minerals to stave off things like hith is more important i think. If you want to feed meat plus bones then maybe try pinky mice or rat pups , they must have nutritional value. Another member a few years ago provided some info on rhom growing in Asia some of which was that they`re raising fish on auto water changers and making sure there is zero nitrate. Im sure growth has as much to do with tank conditions versus river conditions as far as growth is concerned , and i think we know that rhoms have a longer lifespan than pygos so wouldnt that be a reason for the natural slower growth rate? A dealer i know has a rhom that got to 12 ins and its been that size for over 10 years now, another came in at 14 ins and grew to 16ins and stopped.
> This link may explain why we see long term captive fish with big body small head/jaw ratios.
> http://rsbl.royalsoc...0.0401.abstract
> ...


This is exactly what I found nasty with RB32's nattereri....large body...tiny head. They just looked funny. It comes from a high fat diet imo. I personally would much rather have a small fish in proportion then a large fish that looked like a pacu.


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## locust (Aug 2, 2005)

Grosse Gurke said:


> A lot of rhoms fill their bellies anyway..mine do and they just look fat and deep ,with small head/jaw ratios compared to fresh caught wild fish of the same size. One of mine has basically stopped growing length wise at 14ins a couple of years ago , it was 9.5ins 6 or so years ago , so now i feed just once a week on fish foods and some heart so i cant see the benefits of feeding chicken plus skin ( raw skin is nearly 50% fat), and look at the state of that piraya on youtube with all the fatty deposits on its head and hith.. fed on chicken ( small tank granted).
> Feeding so the fish get required vitamins and minerals to stave off things like hith is more important i think. If you want to feed meat plus bones then maybe try pinky mice or rat pups , they must have nutritional value. Another member a few years ago provided some info on rhom growing in Asia some of which was that they`re raising fish on auto water changers and making sure there is zero nitrate. Im sure growth has as much to do with tank conditions versus river conditions as far as growth is concerned , and i think we know that rhoms have a longer lifespan than pygos so wouldnt that be a reason for the natural slower growth rate? A dealer i know has a rhom that got to 12 ins and its been that size for over 10 years now, another came in at 14 ins and grew to 16ins and stopped.
> This link may explain why we see long term captive fish with big body small head/jaw ratios.
> http://rsbl.royalsoc...0.0401.abstract
> ...


This is exactly what I found nasty with RB32's nattereri....large body...tiny head. They just looked funny. It comes from a high fat diet imo. I personally would much rather have a small fish in proportion then a large fish that looked like a pacu.
[/quote]
I wasnt going to mention names lol, didnt 2 of them die very prematurely?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

locust said:


> I wasnt going to mention names lol, didnt 2 of them die very prematurely?


Yeah...I think he lost a few. I stopped following up on his posts though...the fish were just too unnatural looking. Well that&#8230;.and the constant reach around he would give himself


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## Sacrifice (Sep 24, 2006)

Grosse Gurke said:


> Yeah...I think he lost a few. I stopped following up on his posts though...the fish were just too unnatural looking. Well that&#8230;.and the constant *reach around he would give himself *


ROFL


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Im just kidding....but seriously....I do not like the unnatural look some of these fish get with a poor diet. Both smallish heads and bursting fat reserves. I like the way they are shaped and how they look when they are just pulled out of the water.


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

The rbp juvies in the round pool were more streamlined than their square tank siblings.they looked a lot the wild caught rbp Alex(AE) had at the time. Unfortunately I didn't notice until the were getting dumped into the buyers tank n they were swimming together. They all ate like pigs n had bout the same growth rate, although pool raised might of been a tad longer. This coming next season ill photograph the difference weekly.I hadn't exspected a big difference between the two that I got. This year ill be ready.


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## locust (Aug 2, 2005)

BRUNER247 said:


> The rbp juvies in the round pool were more streamlined than their square tank siblings.they looked a lot the wild caught rbp Alex(AE) had at the time. Unfortunately I didn't notice until the were getting dumped into the buyers tank n they were swimming together. They all ate like pigs n had bout the same growth rate, although pool raised might of been a tad longer. This coming next season ill photograph the difference weekly.I hadn't exspected a big difference between the two that I got. This year ill be ready.


This sort of proves that you cant change growth rate as they were eating more because they were using more energy.
Have you experimented Bruner and measured a solo raised juve red compared to a group from the same batch after a few months or something to prove the competition theory?


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## locust (Aug 2, 2005)

Imo you probably cant drastically increase growth rate of rhoms ..how do we know they dont grow at the same rate in the wild?
Feeding heavily in a tank produces fat fish that cant burn off the energy and in some cases they slow down the feed intake and stay at around 10 ins, they mature at a smaller size than that so is there a need to be bigger in a tank? Theres another report somewhere of rhoms of the same age with regards to maturity being noticably smaller in a damned area as opposed to the main river , this could have something to do with the fact that the diversity of fish changed as the rhoms ate most of the others and became the most dominant species( Combi has it).


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

Growth rate with rhoms has WAY more to do with JUST diet. As GG stated, a good looking rhom is more important (more valuable, imo) than a big one. Especially if that largeness sacrifices good body symmetry with the head (rhombus shape that they're known for) and overall health. I do concur with the assertion that rhoms have a slower overall growth rate due to longer life spans. If you overzealously work to increase the growth rate, you're more than likely inadvertently decreasing the life expectancy (as with any obese animal). Even in an aquarium, they're able to achieve a respectable size within the first year (4.5 - 6 inches that I've seen). So, it's plausible that they have an even greater growth spurt in that first year out in the natural Amazon, which helps to explain the wild-living rhom's success rate of longevity to get to such largeness. Again, there are MANY factors in the wild-living growth rate that cannot be duplicated in an aquarium environment.

To understand what I'm saying about increasing an aquarium-living rhom's growth rate, you have to understand what benefits the wild-living rhom would have OVER it. As my mom always taught me (rest her soul), "If you're going to do something, do it right!". In other words, forget the short cuts...

#1: Nutrition. The initial topic here was about feeding red meat and chicken with skin and bone - or something to that effect - to stimulate rapid growth. The problem there is FAT. FAT is for fish that live in naturally cold waters (salmon, sturgeon, etc...). Fat has no place on a lean, mean tropical eating machine. So, what does the wild rhom eat?... FISH and insects (pure protein). YES, they DO eat the bones, skins, fins, etc..., BUT, they eat LEAN fish. Because rhoms are generally solo ambush predators, they do tend to scavenge as well. So, there's a chance they eat some bird or other red-meat animal flesh, but it's a very limited aspect of their day-to-day diet. Fatty diets can only do one thing - make a fat rhom (not a big, healthy one).

#2: Water Quality. There's a reason wild-caught rhoms are found larger than any aquarium rhoms. Aside from the obvious nitrate/nitrite levels, oxygen saturation and other natural minerals, what the aquarium environment could NEVER duplicate are the sexual pheromones and hormones present throughout the Amazon. It's known that growth can be spurred based on pressures of reproductive requirements (a lot of females, not enough males, etc...), which are adjustments that fish naturally physiologically endure. Obviously, this area needs a lot more study, but it's certainly one aspect that cannot yet be duplicated in an aquarium environment... you would need 3,000 gallons to co-hab two full sized rhoms safely, so the likelihood of having pheromones factor into growth rates in the aquarium are a long ways off (perhaps synthetically one day).

#3: Current. This one is especially important for those of you considering the high fat diet method of spurring growth. Rhoms naturally prefer the areas of the river that have faster flowing currents (not white-water torrents, mind you). They seem to thrive when they can swim against a current... AND the current is like putting your fish on a treadmill... the more energy he burns, the more food he'll eat... the faster he'll grow.

If you've got those three things down to a science (you know what I'm talking about), you will have a nice thick, healthy rhom with great lineage (valuable). There are other things to consider in helping your rhom maintain fitness and health. Substitute prawn or shrimp for the bugs he's not eating. The carotenes in the shrimp shell will do wonders for your rhom's coloration. Whatever you can do that best emulates the natural Amazon is what you want to do to grow out your rhom. Do it RIGHT!

Holy CRAP, Batman... I didn't realize I typed all of THAT. Sorry guys. lol.


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## locust (Aug 2, 2005)

^ Good post and info to consider, especially concerning ruling out fatty foods altogether as this makes me think of oily salmon and trout. Large rhoms and mannys for that matter are caught in the river channels as you say and large mannys we know are coming up from up to 50 meters depth, makes me think how water pressure would influence morphology compared to the average tank depth. Someone i know has large pygos in a 2,500 gal pond in over 6 ft deep water and they are all lean and muscly , being mostly fed on beef heart btw. I posted vids a while ago.


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

locust said:


> ^ Good post and info to consider, especially concerning ruling out fatty foods altogether as this makes me think of oily salmon and trout. Large rhoms and mannys for that matter are caught in the river channels as you say and large mannys we know are coming up from up to 50 meters depth, makes me think how water pressure would influence morphology compared to the average tank depth. Someone i know has large pygos in a 2,500 gal pond in over 6 ft deep water and they are all lean and muscly , being mostly fed on beef heart btw. I posted vids a while ago.


I'm still waiting to hear who has the largest rhom that was grown from a fry/juvi in captivity. I have yet to hear of a 15+" aquarium-raised rhom.


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

I think the biggest I've heard raised from a fry 1" ish was prolly around 12" Last time i tried to grow out a baby rhom didn't go so well. I got it as a fry and had it get to 4" and then I left for a week trip and came back to it dead with too much food floating at the top....I had left my dad in charge of feedings for the week and that didn't go so well







i will eventually give her another knock again cuase I have a spare 40G breeder sitting empty.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

I do think the meat diet could make them grow larger faster. 12" in 6 months seems a bit much but mayby 10-12" in a year if you were really trying. The main problems i see is that a high fat diet could lead to fat fish if its not fed right. A good power head and a bit higher heat for digestion could help them to not put on too much fat. Not sure about the no water changes thing but i guess his methods of feeding and filtration may be different.

I do beleive that whole fish and such should be in a p's diet and not just the flesh so i try to feed whole smelt so they can get some benfits from scales, organs, bones... For larger shoals whole larger fish should be fine but for most people smelt should be fine as you cant really cut whole fish into pieces without making a mess in the tank.


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