# Could a hybrid pygo happen?



## Brace (Apr 19, 2004)

I was wondering if anyone thinks it could happen or knows of a hybrid pygocentrus occuring in the wild. I'm just curious because I know that this happens to close relatives in North American native fish in the wild and captive breeding. One situtation of this happening in the wild is with walleyes and sauger. Walleyes are both lake and river fish and sauger are more river based. They have a species called saugeye when they cross breed in the wild. And then there is they captive bred tiger muskie, a cross between northern pike and muskie. Pygos look so similar and are so closely related, do you think this is possible?


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## Round Head (Sep 26, 2005)

It will happen and I am looking forward to seeing them.
Anything in the home aquarium can be and will be hybridized and inbreed and piranhas will not be excluded. Piranhas a slower than other fish because of legal issues, but that will not stop the hobbiest from exploring their scientific studies.
Look around you, african cichlids, flowerhorns, oscars, betas, goldfish, koi, angel fish, discus, cory cats, plecos, arrowanas, gourami, and much much more. 
It will come soon and I strongly believe it will explode right after we master the breeding of the Caribe, Terns, Pirayas, and the serras. 
Good times are ahead.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

Round Head said:


> It will happen and I am looking forward to seeing them.
> Anything in the home aquarium can be and will be hybridized and inbreed and piranhas will not be excluded. Piranhas a slower than other fish because of legal issues, but that will not stop the hobbiest from exploring their scientific studies.
> Look around you, african cichlids, flowerhorns, oscars, betas, goldfish, koi, angel fish, discus, cory cats, plecos, arrowanas, gourami, and much much more.
> It will come soon and I strongly believe it will explode right after we master the breeding of the Caribe, Terns, Pirayas, and the serras.
> Good times are ahead.


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## Dawgz (Aug 18, 2005)

some dude at the lfs tried tell me they had a hybrid of a Red belly piranha and a pacu....

lol....


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## bmpower007 (Feb 11, 2005)

> some dude at the lfs tried tell me they had a hybrid of a Red belly piranha and a pacu....
> 
> lol....










must of been a bullshit LOL


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## divinelawyer625 (Dec 12, 2005)

Dawgz said:


> some dude at the lfs tried tell me they had a hybrid of a Red belly piranha and a pacu....
> 
> lol....


LOL most ppl from fish shop don't know what they are talking about hahah


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## mr_b401 (Jul 6, 2005)

Hope I'm still alive to see the 1st Natteraya.


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## benJii (Feb 17, 2005)

Dawgz said:


> It will happen and I am looking forward to seeing them.
> Anything in the home aquarium can be and will be hybridized and inbreed and piranhas will not be excluded. Piranhas a slower than other fish because of legal issues, but that will not stop the hobbiest from exploring their scientific studies.
> Look around you, african cichlids, flowerhorns, oscars, betas, goldfish, koi, angel fish, discus, cory cats, plecos, arrowanas, gourami, and much much more.
> It will come soon and I strongly believe it will explode right after we master the breeding of the Caribe, Terns, Pirayas, and the serras.
> Good times are ahead.


They will *NOT* mix. Characinforms are more of an 'older' fish, with less evolved breeding behaviours. The goal of all living animals is to breed. Two of the 'newest' fish, Livebearers and Cichlids, are the only freshwater fish to hybridize with repition, although gar hybridize too. Saltwater angels, I believe, have been known to do this in limited numbers. All those fish mentioned above, with exceptions to African *CICHLIDS*, and flowerhorns, are not hybrids. They are color varients, not mixes of species.


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## 2PiRaNhA~2FuRrY (Nov 1, 2005)

Piranha Prince said:


> some dude at the lfs tried tell me they had a hybrid of a Red belly piranha and a pacu....
> 
> lol....


LOL most ppl from fish shop don't know what they are talking about hahah








[/quote]

the only thing the most fish shop know is try to make customer buy they stuff. They will tell you anything and everything to make they sale.


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## Round Head (Sep 26, 2005)

Tibs said:


> It will happen and I am looking forward to seeing them.
> Anything in the home aquarium can be and will be hybridized and inbreed and piranhas will not be excluded. Piranhas a slower than other fish because of legal issues, but that will not stop the hobbiest from exploring their scientific studies.
> Look around you, african cichlids, flowerhorns, oscars, betas, goldfish, koi, angel fish, discus, cory cats, plecos, arrowanas, gourami, and much much more.
> It will come soon and I strongly believe it will explode right after we master the breeding of the Caribe, Terns, Pirayas, and the serras.
> Good times are ahead.


They will *NOT* mix. Characinforms are more of an 'older' fish, with less evolved breeding behaviours. The goal of all living animals is to breed. Two of the 'newest' fish, Livebearers and Cichlids, are the only freshwater fish to hybridize with repition, although gar hybridize too. Saltwater angels, I believe, have been known to do this in limited numbers. All those fish mentioned above, with exceptions to African *CICHLIDS*, and flowerhorns, are not hybrids. They are color varients, not mixes of species.
[/quote]

Salmon and piranhas belong to the same scientific classification order, Characiformes.
Salmon families can and do cross breed in the wild and with human interventions.
The atlantic salmon when escaped from their farm pens can and do breed with the pacific chinook.
Trouts also belong in the same order and trout families do cross and hybridize.


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## EvilRaven1031 (Oct 22, 2005)

if it does happen i want the first Caribaya.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

I doubt they will cross-breed: looking at other animal families (like Salmons/Trouts), and simply extrapolating that knowledge to Serrasalmid fish doesn't work... If so, it would also mean that various Tetra's could cross-breed, or Discus with Angel Fish, etc., etc: I've seen no evidence of either...

btw: Salmons do not belong to the Characin family: Characins evolved from Salmonids, but so did Cyprinoids (carp-likes) and Siluriformes (Catfish). Together, these three groups form the Ostariophysi (of which Salmonids are no part).


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Here's a better method:

*Superorder Ostariophysi * 
Order Cypriniformes (minnows & allies) 
Order Characiformes (characins & allies)
Order Siluriformes (catfishes)

*Superorder Protacanthopterygii * 
Order Salmoniformes (salmon & allies) 
Order Esociformes (pikes & allies)

In the meantime keep dreaming about a Pygo-Serra mix. Makes good conversation over a cup of coffee.


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## Round Head (Sep 26, 2005)

But aren't the original question about crossing pygo families?


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## benJii (Feb 17, 2005)

Round Head said:


> But aren't the original question about crossing pygo families?


Yes, but we stated that characins do not cross. Nor will they ever









It just won't happen. Even if theoretically they decided to mix, there is little to show that they would produce viable babies. They have different breed rituals too. Reds breed differently then Caribas, and Piraya different then Reds, etc and so on. Otherwise, we would be able to breed Cariba and Piraya as fequently as Reds.


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## Round Head (Sep 26, 2005)

Please explain for us why the typical salmon of different genus in the same family can be hybridiized:
Family Salmonidae (salmons, salmonids, and trouts) 
Genus Coregonus (whitefishes) 
Genus Hucho 
Genus Oncorhynchus (Pacific salmon) 
Genus Prosopium (round whitefishes) 
Genus Salmo (Atlantic salmon) 
Genus Salvelinus (chars) 
Genus Stenodus (inconnus) 
Genus Thymallus (graylings)

And the 3 pygos in the same genus can not be hybridized.
As you can see that species in the same genus has similiar genetics than species of different genus in the same family.
Just because it has not happened yet doesn't mean it can't happen.

Please don't misinterpret this question in any bad way, I am just trying to figure things out to learn about these fish.


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## benJii (Feb 17, 2005)

I don't think you understand, but piranhas are PIRANHAS, salmon are SALMON. They are different. Also to my limited knowledge on salmon, they all have similar breeding habits, swimming up stream into freshwater rivers. Salmon obviously must have some very quick and 'advanced' breeding rituals.

I think there is much more likelyness of a _S. rhombeus_ x _S. Sanchezi_ mix then a pygo mix.


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## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

how about a purple spilo and a black diamond? or a black bred to shoal and group hunt like reds?


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## steve1337 (Oct 25, 2005)

Il take an elong+manny.


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## sprfunk (Dec 22, 2005)

well if there is somthing like a tiger and a lion can be bred with diffrent genetics Maby there is a way. maby catch some unfurtal eggs and fertilize them with another spiecies. Just a thought.


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

"Round Head said:


> Look around you, african cichlids, flowerhorns, oscars, betas, goldfish, koi, angel fish, discus, cory cats, plecos, arrowanas, gourami, and much much more.





"tibs said:


> They will NOT mix. Characinforms are more of an 'older' fish, with less evolved breeding behaviours. The goal of all living animals is to breed. Two of the 'newest' fish, Livebearers and Cichlids, are the only freshwater fish to hybridize with repition, although gar hybridize too. Saltwater angels, I believe, have been known to do this in limited numbers. All those fish mentioned above, with exceptions to African CICHLIDS, and flowerhorns, are not hybrids. They are color varients, not mixes of species.


Actually, there are hybrid Cories in the hobby. It is also theorized that most Oscars in the hobby are hybrids now that we know that there are multiple _Astronotus_ spp. which weren't kept painstakingly separate when the O enterred the hobby. It is likely that CBB strains of O are hybrids. There are also hybrid Discus strains and hybrid _Betta_ strains for the same reason. (Actually, I have heard it theorized that all of our CBB _Betta_s from pet stores are hybrids, and I believe that could be true...) And it has been said that at the onset of the Angelfish Plague, _Pterophyllum altum_ was mixed in with the regular _Pt. scalare_ bloodlines in many of the larger breeding concerns...regardless, _Pt. scalare_ may not be the only species used to create today's Angel...the jury is still out on that one...so those could very likely be hybrids. As for Goldfish and Koi, I have heard of a hybrid between the two, but suspect that it is urban legend. Any "hybrid" Goldies or Koi would thusly be "crossbreeds" instead. I hadn't heard of any hybridization of Arowanas or Gouramies, but that means very little as I am not as up on the happenings within hobby as I used to be.

BTW, wasn't the hybridization of piranhas the subject of two very bad movies?


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## colt (Apr 16, 2006)

I think the original question was can two pygos crossbreed in the wild...I don't think that would happen as long as there are enough numbers of each species. I not 100% sure but aren't piraya only found exclusively in Rio Sao Francisco? I know the chance of that happening is slim cause each of the pygos are found in different river systems, Iam not sure if nattereri is found with piraya tho...I don't think they are but if they are found there and the piraya numbers are dropping then there would be a chance for a natural occuring hybrid.

Salmon and trout have naturally crossed, but it was the salmon was foreign to the river system and its numbers were lower...so I guess that was what sparked that hybrid.

Natural hybrids are still man made as it is man that destroys the habitats the fish and animals live in...classic example is that polar bear/grizzly hybrid.

As for is it possible, I think it is possible for a piranha hybrid...though I would not really care for it. Preserve and breed the rare and endangered is more important, and alot more fun.


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## TheTyeMan (Aug 9, 2004)

couldn't you get some eggs and some sperm and mix em all in a pot and throw them back in the water like they do with salmon eggs for hatcherys? has this been tried? or are there too many genitic differences?


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## Slim (Jan 9, 2005)

Couldnt be done in the wild for sure. Mayb in a lab but not in the wild.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

I think it might be possible.Hybrid


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## Slim (Jan 9, 2005)

fry said:


> I think it might be possible.Hybrid


What does that have to do with Piranha.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

if it cant happen, how do you explain the african grey piranha. its 1/3 piranha, 1/3 elephant and 1/3 mutatded lazor alien.

if that can happen so can a pygo mix.


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