# too much filtration



## dopper3 (Sep 5, 2004)

I read on a post a while back that its good to have between 6-10 turnover rate ony your tank. I came across another filter, so now i have 14x turnover rate in my tank with my two filters... i have a regent 20-40 (160gph) and an aquaclear 200 in a 30 gallon tank. will that be more harmful than good?


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## FootClanSkates (Apr 25, 2004)

as long as your fish don't get sucked up against the filter and they can otherwise stand the flow, more is better.


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## illnino (Mar 6, 2004)

thats not bad. on my 29 i have a penguin 330(330 gph) and a penguin 170(170 gph) totaling 500 gph, and thats 17x overturn.


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## Lex (Oct 17, 2004)

is overturn rate the only thing to consider when choosing a filter for your tank? or are there other factors?


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## shutter13 (Jun 23, 2004)

Lex said:


> is overturn rate the only thing to consider when choosing a filter for your tank? or are there other factors?


turnover rate is important mainly for power filters... cannisters and wet/dry the turnover doesnt matter as much... like 5X's an hour is good while HOBs need 8+ times an hour

for example a 150gph ehiem will do good on a 55 gallon... or somewhere along those lines

soooo leave those filters on... slight overkill is always good


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## scottyd (Oct 10, 2004)

`more is not always better, but not enough is not good at all..

how much filtration you need depends on how many what size fish you have and what kind... what filter you have..

for instance, my modified Whispers, I woud bet my house against a donut that my modified Whisper 5 (400 gph) would be plenty on a 220 gallon tank stock full of large fish... but I stuff my filters with bio media, have sponges on ends of em...

now it depnds on what kind of fish also, 5 large Oscars in a 90 gallon, I might want to have 1000 gph... but the normal 6-7 reds that are around 7-8 inches... no problem with a 300 gph on a 55, long as you have bio media.. 
The gallon per hour is all hype, what matters is biological filtration, the more you have the better if you need it..

For instance... my Whisper 5 puts out 400 gph, a AC-500 puts out 500 gph, but the Whisper 5 has more internal valume to hold more bio media... it is going to filter out more amonia and nitrites..

A larger filter that puts out only 200 gph will be better than a smaller 600 gph filter, speed is how fast can your filter clean up after your fish eat and make a mess... is it .... 10 minutes? or is it 20 minutes.. or 5 minutes?.. no biggie either way...

it is possable to have too much gph for some fish that doesn't not like a current.

scott


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## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

scottyd said:


> now it depnds on what kind of fish also, 5 large Oscars in a 90 gallon, I might want to have 1000 gph... but the normal 6-7 reds that are around 7-8 inches... no problem with a 300 gph on a 55, long as you have bio media..
> * The gallon per hour is all hype, what matters is biological filtration, the more you have the better if you need it..*
> 
> For instance... my Whisper 5 puts out 400 gph, a AC-500 puts out 500 gph, but the Whisper 5 has more internal valume to hold more bio media... it is going to filter out more amonia and nitrites..
> ...


 It really isnt hype!

What good is your very efficient filter if you dont have a fast enough flow rate per hour, as this will mean that your ammonia will build up in your tank waiting to be filtered.

The MOST efficent filter will take into account both water retention times, and also flow rates. Just having one without the other will not give you an efficent filter at all!

Take a read of this and you'll see that what you've just said is wrong! clicky


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## scottyd (Oct 10, 2004)

CraigStables said:


> scottyd said:
> 
> 
> > now it depnds on what kind of fish also, 5 large Oscars in a 90 gallon, I might want to have 1000 gph... but the normal 6-7 reds that are around 7-8 inches... no problem with a 300 gph on a 55, long as you have bio media..
> ...


 You don't need Flow rate,that is all hype, I know from REAL LIFE experiance, not a book some aqua enthusiest wrote... I have used junk 150 gph on a 30 gallon with a lot of fish for year (many years ago), and the fish stayed healthy...
Amonia isn't going to build up if the flow isn't enough, geez... I'd have a lot of dead fish if that were the case when the power goes out over night in bad storms..

if you have a 17 inch Rhom in a 10 gallon, then you might need to cycle the tank 7-8 times per hour.. people transport small fish in small bags or large fish in large bags for a hour or two with only 5-6-7 times it's mass in waer, they ship fish overnight like this will pure oxegen, the Amonia doesn't kill the fish though...
do the math.

Also what good is you high flow gph filters if they are flowing too much and by passing the filter and/or biological media

Heck, I remember back in the days when people used either sponge filters or undergravel filters, all powered by air, flow rate was not much... fish was healthy.. plenty of bacteria to kill of amonia, with all that gravel as bio media... it was low flow high volume bio media.... worked!
... now I will admit they did not always have the clearest water back then.
this 1000 gph stuff on tank of 55-200 gallon is all for show, and no (gain in) go.. not ging to make the fish any more healthier than 100 gph... just make the water clear up faster..

I'm not here to try and flame war with you.. but I see not proof fish are more healtheir in 1000 gph vs 100 gph on 50-100 gallon tank.
or comparing a 100 gallon in 1975 with a "air powered" (probably less than 100 gph) undergravel, vs a 100 gallon now with two Ac-500... fish looks just as good and healthy back then as now...
just undergravel was a pain to clean..

I mean you can believe what you want, and you can plunk down cash for something extra to make you feel beter....

anyway
take it easy

scott


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## shoe997bed263 (Oct 15, 2004)

more filters the better on my 75 i have an emp400 and a ehiem2217 and on my other i have an emp280 ac500 and a ehiem 2215 i would drink out of that tank i know it is total over kill but my p's have grow really fast and r very active so i think that the overkill on the filters r doing something right


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## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

scottyd said:


> You don't need Flow rate,that is all hype, I know from REAL LIFE experiance, not a book some aqua enthusiest wrote... I have used junk 150 gph on a 30 gallon with a lot of fish for year (many years ago), and the fish stayed healthy...
> Amonia isn't going to build up if the flow isn't enough, geez... I'd have a lot of dead fish if that were the case when the power goes out over night in bad storms..
> 
> if you have a 17 inch Rhom in a 10 gallon, then you might need to cycle the tank 7-8 times per hour.. people transport small fish in small bags or large fish in large bags for a hour or two with only 5-6-7 times it's mass in waer, they ship fish overnight like this will pure oxegen, the Amonia doesn't kill the fish though...
> ...


 OK, I think we'll call the king of water in here...DonH and see what he has to say about this!


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## shutter13 (Jun 23, 2004)

could a penguin 330 keep my 55 clean? yes

could 2 penguins keep it cleaner? YES!!! i looove crystal water... plus if one of my penguins breaks i still have the other while im fixing it


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## scottyd (Oct 10, 2004)

shutter13 said:


> could a penguin 330 keep my 55 clean? yes
> 
> could 2 penguins keep it cleaner? YES!!! i looove crystal water... plus if one of my penguins breaks i still have the other while im fixing it


 I agree, that is why I have two 300 GPH Whispers on my 75.... I know one would do fine.... having 2 is a safty net... also polishes up the water faster....

On the other hand..
You can hear the hype, you can read a books a few neards wrote, they might say you need 5-10x. And the filter companies, they'll claim anyting to get you to buy more or a bigger filter, it's a business for god's sake..

All this stuff the geeks write down, all looks good on paper.. but like I have said before.. I have seen in "REAL LIFE" what 1x to 3x can do, I mean in the old days ga-zillions and ga-zillians of fish have been raised to nice healthy fish in small and big huge tanks with nothing but a undergravel filter and a air pump..... the gallon per hour of those things were not too good maybe 100-150 tops, usd on 50-100-200-300 gallon tanks with huge fish in them..
Water was not always crystal clear all the time, but most the time.., the Fish grew big and healthy.

It just PROVES the fact, that high GPH is all for show!!! What is important, is how much bio media you have... I mean don't get me wrong... you need more than a 10 gph filtration on a 200 gallon tank with 7 or 8 dif 13 inch Oscars in it...

I am not a lover of undergravel filters either... I never did like em, too hard to clean all the mess and dirt collected underneith them, you had to remove all the gravel, take out plastic plates... it was a pain..
I never used them, I liked the air powered powerfilters, and before that, air powered sponges...
I bought a powerfilter the 1st chance I got... sure they didn't have the biomedia mass the gravel bed had... but it was enoguh, and cleaning was a snap....

Fish only put out so much waste per second...
I see people on here claim if you don't at least have 5x, that your fish will put out more amonia than the filter will handle... like they are saying if my power goes out, my fish will insanly die... good grief!

I am not trying to claim I know it all... just I keep seeing people tell others that they need 2 ac500's and that one is not going to do on that 55 or 75.. etc...etc... etc...

scott


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## alan (Mar 11, 2004)

on my 113gallon i have 1620 turnover


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## Lex (Oct 17, 2004)

alan said:


> on my 113gallon i have 1620 turnover


 1620gph...14.3 turnover you mean...

14.3 is hardcore...what filters you using on that?


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## alan (Mar 11, 2004)

Lex said:


> alan said:
> 
> 
> > on my 113gallon i have 1620 turnover
> ...


 eheim 2215 & 2217


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

on my 125G i have a turnover of 1670 gph, on my lil 10G i have an emp 400(jus fits) and in my 29G i have an emp 400 and 280G....all tanks are crystal clear and the water quality is usually perfect other that slight traces of ammonia every now and then....


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

No such thing as too much filtration.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

The way I see it. 
Your fish pisses in your tank and creates ammonia.
(out of tank filtration....power/canister/wetdry)
Majority of your biological filteration is outside of the tank so turnover will pull the ammonia thru the bacteria creating nitrates. Less turnover, longer it takes to convert ammonia to nitrates. Will this be harmfull to fish...depends on the bio load. Larger load...you want more turnover, less load...it wont matter as much. 
With canisters and wetdry, more water contacts the bacteria so it is converted to nitrates more effeciently so you need less turnover. With hang on filters, less water contact with bacteria holding media so you need more turnover to fully strain over the media.

Piranhas are pretty messy fish so for good bio filtration the quicker it goes to the filter the better, and the more bio media, the better.


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## scottyd (Oct 10, 2004)

the_w8 said:


> on my 125G i have a turnover of 1670 gph, on my lil 10G i have an emp 400(jus fits) and in my 29G i have an emp 400 and 280G....all tanks are crystal clear and the water quality is usually perfect other that slight traces of ammonia every now and then....


 You an put a 2000 hp turbo charge hemi onb a motercycle to get to work.. if you want to, but I thini it might not be needed...

My tanks are are not just crystal clear, they are so clear you can't tell there is water in them... 400 gph on a 55, 300 gph on a 30 gallon.... I have two 300's on a 75, but with one turned off, still can't tell water is in tank...

I would aggree there is no such thing as "too much" and also it is better than
"too little", but I thin some people hear lead people down the high finace path for no reason....

Remember gallon per hour is all for show, it is the amount of bio media that counts...
100 gallon per hour on a 200 gallon is fine as long as you have the bio media mass..
keep in mind though that the 100 gph filter on that 200 will clear it up, but it will take longer, maybe a few hours.. where a 500 gph might take it 20 min after say a few 13 inch Oscar feedings....
I think one would be better to invest in stuffing a filter with as much bio meda than buying two big filters..

Two Whisper 300's are not going to kill amonia as good as one 300 that is turned down to 150 with bio media stuffed into it...

scott


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

I have about 17X turnover...too much? Meh, less work for me!


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

Filtration is not ALL about the size of biomedia and flow rate is not ALL hype. Flow rate ensures that there is proper circulation in the tank to prevent dead spots. Dead spots encourage anaerobic activity which can lead to the production of hydrogen sulfide gases that will kill fish. It also ensures that the tank volume is cycled through the biomedia EFFICIENTLY. Ammonia is constantly being produced through fish respiration and waste production. Ammonia also fluctuates&#8230; varying with introduction of new fish, water changes, feeding schedule, etc. Proper flow rate ensures that ammonia/nitrite gets passed through the biofilter and processed efficiently (in a timely manner not in hours&#8230 Therefore your fish would not be subjected to constant ammonia/nitrite levels while your filter tries to catch up. If what you are saying is true, a 180 gallon tank can be filtered with one HUGE sponge filter powered by an airpump. Definitely enough surface area but do you think the flow rate will be able to support large predatory fish?

As you have stated, filters of long ago did the job with much lower flow rates but still had healthy fish although the water can be cloudy. The question then becomes, "Why is the water cloudy?" Cloudy water originates from high nutrient levels in the water column that supports the high proliferation of heterotrophic bacteria. This is caused by either an underfiltered tank or a heavy bioload (which a properly filtered/maintained tank should be able to handle). Although cloudy water can be a sign of water problems, crystal clear water does not necessarily mean that there's nothing wrong.

Technological advances have improved the fish keeping hobby. This allows hobbiest to better care for there fish with lower maintenance requirements. Why have powerheads replaced air pumps even in outdated undergravel filters? Answer: flowrate.

Not all books written by fish geeks are supported by filter manufacturers. There are many studies on flow rate and filtration backed up by research that are INDEPENDENT of monetary gains.



> if you have a 17 inch Rhom in a 10 gallon, then you might need to cycle the tank 7-8 times per hour.. people transport small fish in small bags or large fish in large bags for a hour or two with only 5-6-7 times it's mass in waer, they ship fish overnight like this will pure oxegen, the Amonia doesn't kill the fish though...
> do the math.


Do you know how many fish die during shipment or suffer ammonia burn as a result of shipping?


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## alan (Mar 11, 2004)

the_w8 said:


> on my 125G i have a turnover of 1670 gph, on my lil 10G i have an emp 400(jus fits) and in my 29G i have an emp 400 and 280G....all tanks are crystal clear and the water quality is usually perfect other that slight traces of ammonia every now and then....


 unfortunately emp 400 dont mean anything here.how much does it turnover


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## scottyd (Oct 10, 2004)

Quote: by DonH
As you have stated, filters of long ago did the job with much lower flow rates but still had healthy fish although the water can be cloudy. The question then becomes, "Why is the water cloudy?" Cloudy water originates from high nutrient levels in the water column that supports the high proliferation of heterotrophic bacteria. This is caused by either an underfiltered tank or a heavy bioload (which a properly filtered/maintained tank should be able to handle). Although cloudy water can be a sign of water problems, crystal clear water does not necessarily mean that there's nothing wrong. 
Unquote:

Anmswer:
Good info, I was refering to cloudy water by means of feeding or cichlids digging in gravel... water in the Wild also gets cloudy, fish dig around in lakes and ponds...

Scott
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Quote:by DonH
Technological advances have improved the fish keeping hobby. This allows hobbiest to better care for there fish with lower maintenance requirements. Why have powerheads replaced air pumps even in outdated undergravel filters? Answer: flowrate.
Unquote:

Answer
I aggree, we have come a long way in technoligy to improve the fish hobby..
I was refering the use of Undergravel filters to prove a point, when cleaned properly, they worked great... LOW FLOW RATE SEEMED TO WORK JUST FINE on lsmall and large tank...

The only reason powerfilters are better (in my mind also) is most, and I mean most people found it so hard to clean out the undergravel filters, that they neglected to do it on a regular basis, it was a big pain in the rear to have to take ALL the gravel out, just to take out those platic grids to find filth under them to clean up..
powerfilters store the filth in where you can with ease, despose of it...

My point is, that when the undergravel was working, they works just as good as todays tank with two or three Ac-500 on em... what I am saying is this is PROOF, that 100-150 gph was (or is) no less effective than 1000-1500 gph...
What more proof do you need? If you are old enough to remember those 1970's, early 80's when everyone used Undergravel... fish stores with lots and lots and lots of great looking tanks with healthy looking fish..

All this mumbo jumbo chemistry stuff sounds neat... but I am talking REAL LIFE results, that prove <1x filtration is all you needed (or need now), as long as you have the bio media mass to rid toxins..
if you have an overstocked tank, you might need more, but we should not have overstocked tanks anyway.
Scott
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Quate: by DonH
Do you know how many fish die during shipment or suffer ammonia burn as a result of shipping?
Unquote

Let me guess, maybe 2% or 3%, and that is because either the shipment took longer, the fish was put in too little water etc

Listen Don, you are probably 200 times more knnowlegable in this than me... and a very helpful person here... all I know is when someone gets on here and asks if there Emp 400 will work on a 90 gallon, and 10 people say "oh my goawd, that is not enough flow!", a red flag goes up.. I just know from my own Experiance (back then I had no choice and was young) that 30 gph air powred powerfilter on a 30 gallon works for me for many years raising Red Bellies and other fish, I know for a fact that a Whisper 802 air pump on 200 gallon at fish store worked for him for YEARS with a lot of big Healthy fish.. SLOW and LOW flow rate... and the fish WAS NOT dying of Amonia or even look stressed out..

I am not saying 10-15x filtration doesn't work, I just know that when some of the guys here claim that mediocore let alone low flow rate is unhealthy for fish... I know from REAL LIFE experiance, that is not true.. They have thier own beliefs, and are just trying to help, I understand...

scott


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