# Crocodilians



## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Here is a hatchling from this year of mine.. A Cuvier's Dwarf Caiman.
While they are "ranched" extensively in South America, much more effort needs be made wit this species in the US. For they may be truly one of the only suitable species for general captivity.

Ok Ace, it has been "Fired" up, start the questions..


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

Why are they perhaps the best choice for a captive specie? due to their small size and/or relatively mild temperament? any other reasons?


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## Death in #'s (Apr 29, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> Why are they perhaps the best choice for a captive specie? due to their small size and/or relatively mild temperament? any other reasons?










thats what i was thinking
and thats a sweet pic


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

_P. palpebrosus_ are a wonderfull crocodillian
Some work is being done with them Show wise (read zoo)

they are of a manageable size but still not for everyone,
Definitly much more work needs to be done from dedicated hobbyists
on this species.

Heres a pic of an adult showing well how they got the name
palpebrosus.

(Bony- eyelid in latin for you lazy people)


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Terrific photo Poly! and a beautifull couple of palps!









The reason number one I believe this the most suited species for captivity is its small adult size. Its temperment is a variable thing and a single temperment can not be granted to an entire population, individuals are individuals. Now, saying that it is the most suitable for captivity does not mean I blanketly endorse the keeping of crocodilians. They are LONG lived captives which require a commitment. This commitment besides being of time, and space is also one of finances.

I would really love to see more dedicated individuals spend time doing considerably more to produce these guys captively, and reduce the reasons they have in South America for collecting any young or eggs out of the wild. I would also love to see more work spent in South America on lands being set aside and protected...









got to run, more to add later..


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I've been waiting for this! What incredible pics! What is a suitable set up for an adult dwarf?

To, again, warn people; only for the very serious and devoted.

5 feet is a lot of croc/caim/gator
Here is a pic and a quote about an incident with a *3 foot *caimen:

Bill Moss writes: "This picture (right) shows the results of a bite to the hand of a 23-year-old woman by a young, 3 foot spectacled caiman (Caiman crocodilus). Another person was handling the animal when the woman attempted to point to something and ask a question. She moved her hand parallel to the caiman's head and about 6 inches away. The caiman struck sideways and was able to grab her hand. The woman reacted by retracting her hand, which resulted in the tearing of the skin and subcutaneous tissues. The result of the bite was eight internal stitches, 6 external stitches, a damaged nerve running to the index finger, permanent scarring and approximately $US600 in medical treatment."

from this link;

http://www.crocodilian.com/crocfaq/faq-2.html


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

As far as cool links, I really enjoyed this one:

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herpetolog...cs/csp_ppal.htm

Here's a nice pic from it:


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Damn those are cute...how long could I keep one in a 20 gallon long?

Ok, now that sweetlu's question is out of the way, what would a hobbiest need to keep one of these? It says they get like 3'....so how big of an enclosure would you need to house one properly?


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

grosse gurke said:


> Damn those are cute...how long could I keep one in a 20 gallon long?
> 
> Ok, now that sweetlu's question is out of the way, what would a hobbiest need to keep one of these? It says they get like 3'....so how big of an enclosure would you need to house one properly?


 i would never say that, i would say "damn those are chic magnets, how long could i keep one in a 20long"









nice pics and good links and info guys









why do these seem more colorful than caimens you see in pet stores? is it there water or land area they are from?

how much do they see for also? are they illegal?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

sweet lu said:


> grosse gurke said:
> 
> 
> > Damn those are cute...how long could I keep one in a 20 gallon long?
> ...


 I gota work on that...


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Cuvier's Dwarf Caiman (_Paleosuchus_ _paplebrosus_)

As Poly defined the binomial species for you, I will tell you the genus means ancient crocodile.

This is quite possibly the smallest adult crocodilian on the planet. Adult males *RARELY* exceed 5 feet in length, and you can expect 3 out of females.

http://www.crocodilian.com/crocfaq/faq-2.html

The above Link is well done and definately emphasizes the point that needs to be made, not everyone needs or should have one.

My adults are kept in enclosures that measure 10 feet long, by 6 feet wide, and are 8 feet tall. I add the tall because if you keep them in any type of non-glass or solid walled enclosure, they can climb most fencing readily and easily, so a top is a *MUST*. My enclosures are heavily planted for the palps, and they are 70 % land, 30 % water. The water in the adult enclosures is set up as a running stream that terminates in a small pond; They have some sunny spots, but 80% of the enclosure is heavily shaded to mimick the canopy that would cover them in the wild. They are fed a variety of animals, *NEVER* store bought chicken, as the hormones and steroids put into commercially raised meats can and will actually sterilize captive crocodilians...mine get deer meat, beef, rodents (mice, rats, chinchilla, Degu, etc...) Lagamorphs, various birds, some fish, and invertebrates such as crayfish.

Young are kept in aquaria, a 20 long would actually house a young palp for a year or so. They tank should be provided with a strong external cannister filter, I prefer Marineland Magnum 350's. I place several large rocks in the tank that come above the water surface. I place the outtake on the oposite end of the tank from the input so that the water flows in a direction; (many of my tanks are drilled and plumbed and run through each other in a tier that is powerd by a large sump pump that is in a large home made sump and gravity draws the water from the top tanks through the lower ones you get the picture.) You should invest in a quality light source to offer UVa/b wavelengths, and I also use ceramic heat emitters(they do not shatter like glass bulbs do when splashed....trust me on this), and offer fake plants for shade and cover. I feed my young a large amounts of invertebrates, such as crickets, and cockroaches which are all fed HIGH QUALITY diets so that they pass on nutrients to the young, I also keep fish in their tanks (a few dace or danios) and offer them mouse pinks once a week. They grow very rapidly when fed optimumly and are rewarding captives to watch. *THEY ARE NOT PETS!*
They can and will bite, they have sharp teeth, and are incredibly FAST. as they mature the teeth are not the only dangerous potential equation you will have to learn to deal with, as they are a heavily amored species whose osteoderms are very sharp and pronounced, so when you attempt to manually restrain an individual you can get actual cuts to your hands.

I do not heat the water, so that they will climb out and bask to get warm.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

looks like something to look foward to when i have my house and a spare room :nod:

thanks for the neat info man


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

I think I'd much prefer a monitor to a crocodile, myself


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## Kory (Jun 5, 2003)

sweet lu said:


> looks like something to look foward to when i have my house and a spare room :nod:
> 
> thanks for the neat info man


 riiiight


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Ok this one almost started collecting pollen sitting undisturbed...

Here is a good example on why not evryone needs to keep large crocodilians...they grow...and have mouths like this fellow...It is a porosus, same one of my buddies


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

is that you in the back ground?

looks like it is a rescue thing trying to get him into a proper home


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

CK, if that wasn't you posting I'd think that was a fake, it's focused in an odd way.
I'm actually not sure what the joy is of having something like that! There is the "wow" factor and then.....


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Here is another reason, 
They are not for everyone

a sick poorly cared for animal,
This is common to the care given to these majestic animals
by those with no clue what they need. sick thing is they seem to think
this is acceptable.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

yeah i remember that guy


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Yeah thats wally wonder if he's still for sale, such a great specimen.
Have to just love his chicken wire concreate "Habitat"


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

yup, a good solid 8'x4' pen for a 6 foot crocodilian. I heard those things didnt like to move much anyway.


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

As I put in that post:


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## Atlanta Braves Baby! (Mar 12, 2003)

That is messed up. I cant beleive people could do that to these beautiful animals.


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Wow,

After seeing that picture, I had to track down that thread....I came in on the scene just a little too late for that one....and a good thing, as I am still boiling with anger







...

Unfortunately, that type of condition IS entireley too common. They splayed jaw in Alligators and caiman I see every year in animlas people wish to find homes for. Sadly many are NON-RECOVERABLE.

Alligators are *NOT SUITABLE CAPTIVES* for the average hobbyist, and one farther , for the semi-dedicated hobbyist. They unfortunately do have the best personalities, and attitudes of all the crocodilians, and this is what attracts peope to them, however, *THEY GROW LARGE!* and they need to be in the sun-light, while receiving an adequate diet....or results such as those pictures of that poor specimen show.



> yup, a good solid 8'x4' pen for a 6 foot crocodilian. I heard those things didnt like to move much anyway.


P-45, they move quite a bit actually. and 8' X 4' would be a little small on a 6' specimen. 8' X 8' would be better, they should be able to get into enough water to completely submerge and move around, as well as enough land to do the same...

Ace, I know impressive picture, hard to get good pics when moving any biggies, as those of us who would normally be taking pics of our beasties, are "tied" up at the moment....







.... top of picture was altered by myself so that I was not posting freinds faces all over the net.....









The "WOW" factor always exists with even the smaller species for me, as they are absolutely impressive animals in every way. Rob Bredl was once asked how come it was he got along without be killed, or dimembered by his crocs, he answered I remember that he is a croc, and I leave him to be a croc...


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

CrocKeeper said:


> P-45, they move quite a bit actually. and 8' X 4' would be a little small on a 6' specimen. 8' X 8' would be better, they should be able to get into enough water to completely submerge and move around, as well as enough land to do the same...


 i was being sarcastic


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

some people realy anger me, to a point where i start to wish death apon them.

Croc.. are you selling any of these Cuvier's??


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

At this time no. I promised two to a friend and the rest I am setting up to raise and add to my breeding stock, the particular lines they represent are under represented in my stock....









But I have other eggs that should be hatching soon...


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

I have been interested in this speices for quite some time.. but ATM i dont have time..

in the future i would like to buy a few for a breeding project.. From your Experience, How are they with aggression to their caretaker?


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

if a drawf caimen gets 3 feet sometimes them what does a regular caimen get when its full grown?

are drawf caimens the ones you still in pet stores or are those just normal caimens?

how many are in an average batch?


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

there are many species of caimen.. some get 10+ feet.. others get 4


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

> From your Experience, How are they with aggression to their caretaker?


They are fairly skittish creatures, but will come readily to you for food.....they recognize you, and among herps are definately a superior intelligence.

_Caiman crocodylus_ was the most common "pet" crocodilian. Fl banned tehir imporataion, and since then they have been a rather uncommon animal, they use to fetch $18 bucks in quantity, and now they are a $125 creature. They are not a good choice, as the spectecled caiman gets rather large, I have an adult male a little over 8 feet, and he is missing tail.....

They average around 6 feet but can reach lengths of 9 feet..
There is also schneider's dwarf caiman, which at 5-8 feet is dwafish in the realm of crocdilians, but not captivity.
Then you have endagered species like yacare, and latirostris, and then of course the giant of caiman, the Black caiman which gets as large or larger than the american alligator........


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

when did florida ban their importation? when i still lived there in may there were still caimen for sale, like 15 in a 75g about 1' long each and eating feeders, no land at all ether


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## XueHa (Sep 26, 2003)

hi CrocKeeper ,
i know that the brain space in sw crocodile head is bigger than this of an equal sized alligator ... can you tell me comparison between sw corc and black kaimen ?!..
thnx in advance

kostadin
Bulgaria


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

XueHa said:


> hi CrocKeeper ,
> i know that the brain space in sw crocodile head is bigger than this of an equal sized alligator


 interesting. BY HOW MUCH is a saltie's brain bigger than a gator's, though? 5%? 10%? 20%?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

XueHa said:


> hi CrocKeeper ,
> i know that the brain space in sw crocodile head is bigger than this of an equal sized alligator ... can you tell me comparison between sw corc and black kaimen ?!..
> thnx in advance
> 
> ...


 Cool question/topic. Also cool to have Bulgarian representation!

I await CK's response!


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Bump


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

kostadin!

Hello, long time no see.....how is the nile?

The Black Caiman (_Melanosuchus niger_) is closely is much more closely related to the Alligator than the Crocodile... its skull structure obviously differs from both...I have never kept Melanosuchus ( it is one of the species I am currently attempting to obtain....) but having both alligators and porosus, I can tell you that the porosus are much more timid creatures... they are nervous and jumpy and sneaky...they are quite a bit mor sneaky and deceptive, with the alligators being a much more straight forward animal...

Among my captives I find that the niloticus, moreletii, and porosus keep me on my toes more than any others, I consider them more intelligent animals out of personal observation.....

I will begin a much more in depth answer worthy of Acestro......


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

http://media.hamncheez.com/pictures/giant_gator.jpg
copy/paste into browser

probably a porosus?


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## XueHa (Sep 26, 2003)

hi Crockeeper ... i am too busy in the university lately due to my graduation in November ... the nile is doing great .. i am looking forward getting another crocodilian speciment probably caimen if i am able to find any ..
btw did you got my last two PM becuase i never got a reply ?

kostadin
Bulgaria

PS : piranha45 this is no way a saltie , but huge american alligator


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

i c, yeah the snout looked really broad but i wasnt sure if it was just the tape or whatnot, and the snout's the only way a newbler like me could tell it from a croc


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

CrocKeeper

I would love to see some pics of your enclosures for you Caiman. When I have my own place I would love to be able to build an enclosure to keep one of these beautiful animals. I saw that you list what you feed them. But how much and how often do you feed. If you could show pics of the enclosures Id have a better idea of what is needed as far as heating, water, shade and so forth. I assume you have strong filtration on the stream/pond as well, what kind of filtration are you using?


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

p45, I still can not access that pic









Kostadin, congratulations on your upcoming graduation, and no I did not get your PM's....re PM me, and I will discuss your ability to get a caiman sent from me here in the US to you...

Nathan I am working on posting a bunch of pics, that are currently 35 mm film slides, getting the scanned and putting together a gallery, I get so many requests for pics, of both animals and enclosures....







....


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## the grinch (Feb 23, 2004)

a friend of mine has a 5' caimen in his basement. He built a hugh tank to house him in. Every time he tries to clean out the tank the crock attacks him. I visited with him last week and he told me he wishes he never owned it as a pet. The only way i could really agree with keeping one as a pet is if you had a large place and were breeding it. Inside a home doesnt seem to be the best place for such a beautiful creature. No disrespect to anyone nore am i trying to talk down on anyone. The croc hunter has a zoo were they are in a very natural environment with clay based ponds and grass and all the essentials. They need a big area to swim and be free, and do what crocks do. Not be in a tank just big enough for them to live in. These creatures are not fish! Just my opinion. I know guys like peacock takes good care of his animals and tries to give them the best home possible, but i think in the case of a croc the wild is the only suiteable place


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

the grinch said:


> a friend of mine has a 5' caimen in his basement. He built a hugh tank to house him in. Every time he tries to clean out the tank the crock attacks him. I visited with him last week and he told me he wishes he never owned it as a pet. The only way i could really agree with keeping one as a pet is if you had a large place and were breeding it. Inside a home doesnt seem to be the best place for such a beautiful creature. No disrespect to anyone nore am i trying to talk down on anyone. The croc hunter has a zoo were they are in a very natural environment with clay based ponds and grass and all the essentials. They need a big area to swim and be free, and do what crocks do. Not be in a tank just big enough for them to live in. These creatures are not fish! Just my opinion. I know guys like peacock takes good care of his animals and tries to give them the best home possible, but i think in the case of a croc the wild is the only suiteable place


 I actually think this is a very interesting post.
For the most part I agree.
The problem is that so many people like the "wow" factor.
For a very few people I think it is okay to keep them. NOT as a hobbyist,
per se, but as someone showing many others how impressive these animals are.
"Man, it'd be cool to have a caimen" is probably a clue that you should think a little bit harder about what you're getting into. (heck, that sentence has gone through my head! )


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## ineedchanna (May 27, 2003)

Very nice!


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## the grinch (Feb 23, 2004)

i was hoping this thread wouldnt go away so fast


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

> a friend of mine has a 5' caimen in his basement. He built a hugh tank to house him in. Every time he tries to clean out the tank the crock attacks him. I visited with him last week and he told me he wishes he never owned it as a pet. The only way i could really agree with keeping one as a pet is if you had a large place and were breeding it. Inside a home doesnt seem to be the best place for such a beautiful creature. No disrespect to anyone nore am i trying to talk down on anyone. The croc hunter has a zoo were they are in a very natural environment with clay based ponds and grass and all the essentials. They need a big area to swim and be free, and do what crocks do. Not be in a tank just big enough for them to live in. These creatures are not fish! Just my opinion. I know guys like peacock takes good care of his animals and tries to give them the best home possible, but i think in the case of a croc the wild is the only suiteable place


Interesting post.

One, contact your friend and tell him I can offer this animal pernmanent refuge in a proper environment that will not result in its or his being harmed....I hate to see bites happen, and yes I have seen quite a few, the most gruesome was a young man who lost his right bicep to a spectecled caiman of 4 feet.

Two, the point of these exquisite creatures being unsuitable for the average home or being completely unsuitable for even the average hobbyist is one I will never get tired of seeing :nod: for it is a valid point. Steve may not be your best example of how to do things, i.e. the whole baby thing in a porosus enclosure...not his best career decision...but yes they require large enclosures, and those enclosures need to offer adequate land and water areas.

Three, there are people willing to properly invest the needed time and finacial resources to house and maintain these absolutely incredible captives. The ability of those that would do so is seriously jeopardized everytime someone who is not willing to or is not capable of the fiscal responsibility or the time and effort required decides they should just get a caiman, or an alligator, or a crocodile. A perfect example is the Pirahna, and another recent the snakehead...people eventually become afraid of these animals and then release them into non-native environs, and the result is since the hobbyists refuse to self regulate, legislation is enacted to do the regulation for them....so SERIOUS thought, research, and investment must be made on a quality level.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Well said (as expected! )


> the most gruesome was a young man who lost his right bicep to a spectecled caiman of 4 feet


Um, ya, that sounds at least a little gruesome... ouch!


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## XueHa (Sep 26, 2003)

CrocKeeper do you keep siamese crocs ?


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Yes I do Xueha...
Hoopefully they will be reproductive within the next two years...








This is a serious croc as an adult, and sadly one that is probably extinct in the wild, and sadly captive stock is also much in need of cleansing as the genes of many are not pure, much like with the rhombifer....


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## XueHa (Sep 26, 2003)

wow ... this is my favourite croc ...best of luck with them breeding .... do you have any pics ? please post !
about the genes thing ... i saw a Mark Oshea documentary in farm with 4000 ( cant remember exactly ) siamese -saltie mix crocodilians ... are salties the only specie that can breed with siamese ?

kostadin
Bulgaria


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Probably Sumat -Prakan farm in Thailand, but many of the farms over there hybridize the porosus with the siamensis..sadly it is just how they do things...they grow faster and bigger than either of the two specie sinvolved, and they are out to produce leather and meat on farms...


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

a porosus-siamensis mix grows faster and bigger thana straight porosus? What is the logic behind that?

here's the pic you couldn't see


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

LMAO!!! If you scroll through the lounge to old threads you will see a response I had to that picture there....


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