# Was Told Gibbus



## MFNRyan

So most of you know about the Gibbus I got. When i got him I really questioned his lack of color around the gill plate. Not knowing the point of collection I was S.O.L 
I watched a video on here a member posted on his black piranha chasing him. The fish looked just like mine. I txt my friend asking him about it since he knows more about P's then i do and he feels it has a better chance at being a blue diamond rhom then a Gibbus. I say this because in the light he looks like he has been sprayed with blue glitter. Was not like this when I first got him though. He also now has red eyes. I checked on Franks site and he does look a lot like a rhom, I also checked aquascapes stock photos and he really looks like a Rhom to me. I know a rhom is a rhom is a rhom, diamond, blue, gold, black all that is other little names. He seems to have what everyone calls a diamond shape and also the blue sparkle. So here are some pictures, let an expert eye take a look at this guy and tell me what you think. He gets real dark when the lights off very long or he is in the shadows. tried to catch the blue glitter look you can see it some but not as well as in person. If he is a rhom at 5.5 inches what tank does he need and how fast can I expect him to grow. Should I be looking at a large tank in future of a year or two? Thanks for your help P-Fury Crew

Some pictures are from when i first got him the third one on are all from today. If you need me to take anything more to better ID him let me know and I'll give it a try. also the last two pictures you can sort of see the blue hue to him


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## hastatus

I did some photo manipulation after selecting the best photo shown. Even though there is no real knowledge of where this fish was collected. My impression is the fish fits not only the image of S gibbus, but may very well be S. gibbus based on the page description.

Bear in mind, this is solely my opinion on the analysis of the photo in comparison to other images on: http://www.opefe.com/gibbus.html .


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## MFNRyan

Thanks Frank. What factors separate it from Rhom? It has none of the gibbus coloring. That's why I put the post up. So someone who is expert on these fish can tell me.


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## Lifer374

It's my belief that coloring can greatly change on an idividual fish depending on diet, surroundings, water perimeters, tank lighting and temperment of the fish. 
Not always the best evidence to look at when IDing a particular fish.


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## hastatus

Its simply a best guess on things that I see. Body type, fin coloration though not very documented. Throat color not evident, but saw some yellow om the gill. This last is not important as both rhombeus and gibbus show yellow-orange (gibbus) yellow (rhombeus). Spotting appears like gibbus. But difficult to know for sure it it had combo small and large spots.

As I said. Its a best guess without knowing collection point. Doubt any better photos will help.


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## MFNRyan

I wish i could get the collection point. In person this fish has no yellowish red color on the throat. Only colors are black and the blue glitter look.

So I went for a closer look without the camera. The spots look like some big ones and some small ones. the small ones between the big spots. Also the blue color seems to be in his anal fin and the rear fin (don't know exact term) Another thing I found is right behind his eye towards the gill is also blue. Then when I stand up that blue glitter look went to green then yellowish. He also doesn't like my face in his tank cause he swam at me an hit the glass. Pretty hard too :/


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> I wish i could get the collection point. In person this fish has no yellowish red color on the throat. Only colors are black and the blue glitter look.
> 
> So I went for a closer look without the camera. The spots look like some big ones and some small ones. the small ones between the big spots. Also the blue color seems to be in his anal fin and the rear fin (don't know exact term) Another thing I found is right behind his eye towards the gill is also blue. Then when I stand up that blue glitter look went to green then yellowish. He also doesn't like my face in his tank cause he swam at me an hit the glass. Pretty hard too :/


My next advice to you since gibbus is such an ambiguous species is go by the original seller.


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## MFNRyan

Ok, thank you very much Frank.


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## hastatus

Sorry wasn't much help. Difficult species to tie down without collection data.


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## MFNRyan

Yeah I know what ya mean. Compare pictures they look so close. The Gibbus an the rhom are super close, the gibbus just doesn't get as big or as colorful. So Frank, you want to buy him so you can get some more info for your site? lol


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> Yeah I know what ya mean. Compare pictures they look so close. The Gibbus an the rhom are super close, the gibbus just doesn't get as big or as colorful. So Frank, you want to buy him so you can get some more info for your site? lol


S gibbus is a smaller species than rhombeus. Around 14in. Nope, I don't buy piranhas.


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## MFNRyan

ha ha well it was worth a shot. I think you buying him woulld be good for science! lol I didn't even know he would get that big. I assume super slow like rhoms do. around 1" a year​


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## hastatus

S rhombeus grow well in the first 4-5 years of life. Usually top out between 9-10 inches Tl if kept in a small aquarium.


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## MFNRyan

I want to get him a 75g an get rid of my 55g. The tank just isn't practical, the foot print sucks on the 55g


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> I want to get him a 75g an get rid of my 55g. The tank just isn't practical, the foot print sucks on the 55g


It does. Reminds of a large 11in. S rhombeus that lived a 100g breeder tank. Very wide but deep. Owner got the fish at 6in and lived in that tank for nearly 10 years when he gave it to me.


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## MFNRyan

I am looking for another 100g. Seems like the perfect tank for a small serra, it's wide and long for them to swim just doesn't have the height which is ok for those guys


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> I am looking for another 100g. Seems like the perfect tank for a small serra, it's wide and long for them to swim just doesn't have the height which is ok for those guys


Height matters some since rhombeus are found in deep waters. But a good power head will suffice.


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## MFNRyan

That's another thing I know nothing about picking out is a power head! I have my manny in my current 100g, just wanted another for maybe the gibbus unless i get rid of it. Thinking i would like a ruby red more


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> That's another thing I know nothing about picking out is a power head! I have my manny in my current 100g, just wanted another for maybe the gibbus unless i get rid of it. Thinking i would like a ruby red more


There many types and gallonages. Go to the tank and equipment forum. They can assist you there.


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## Ja'eh

Here's my gibbus. I just took these pics a few minutes ago.


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## MFNRyan

Your Gibbus looks a lot different to me then mine? What do you think? How long have you had him an what size is he/


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## Ja'eh

I bought it from Aqua Scape in 2007 at about 3.5 inches. It's about 8-9 inches now.

I do think that they look different.


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## Ja'eh

Of the few pics I have seen of gibbus specimens their caudal fin seems to bow outwards. I'm not sure if this is relevant or just mere coincidence.


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## MFNRyan

Did yours look like mine at the 5" point?


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## Ja'eh

At 5" the face and mouth region on my guy was already less pointy than yours.


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## JustJoshinYa

My opinion is s. Gibbus looks very much like the first batch Pedro brought in a while ago


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## Ja'eh

JustJoshinYa said:


> My opinion is s. Gibbus looks very much like the first batch Pedro brought in a while ago


Which? Mine or RedBelly11's?


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## MFNRyan

I have really wondered if mine really was Gibbus or Rhom. I trust Frank though, he has seen thousands of fish in his time and would be able to tell. I just cant help but think he looks different then any Gibbus I have seen and so much like a diamond rhom. But I don't know Sh!t, lol so it doesn't mean much


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## memento

RedBelly11 said:


> I have really wondered if mine really was Gibbus or Rhom. I trust Frank though, he has seen thousands of fish in his time and would be able to tell. I just cant help but think he looks different then any Gibbus I have seen and so much like a diamond rhom. But I don't know Sh!t, lol so it doesn't mean much


That may be th ebest thing to do : rely on Frank's opinion about it. He knows the desriptions better than anyone I think.
Comparing with other gibbus always raisies the question, are the ones you are comparing them with, really gibbus ?

Personally I wouldn't know the exact difference . I'm even doubtful about the validity of the species itself.

The main difference in both specimen shown, is the head profile. The description on gibbus only mentions the convexity behind the head though, as being more convex then in S.rhombeus.

What spotting differences are there between them Frank ?


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## MFNRyan

Mine has mostly bigger spots then some slightly smaller spots along his side. Head is not rounded at all like ja'ehs fish. This species is very complecated. I'm with you memento, I question the species all together. I could throw mine in with a black rhom and I don't think you could pick the Gibbus from the Rhom?? They look almost exactly the same. Frank told me the Gibbus doesn't get as big though so maybe it's like a miniture Rhom species lol. I have no clue I;m a newb! I don't see how a Terntezi is considered a natt. and a Gibbus is considered it's own species lol


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## Red Sox Fanatic

I love all Piranhas,but they sure can be confusing!!!


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## Ja'eh

memento said:


> I have really wondered if mine really was Gibbus or Rhom. I trust Frank though, he has seen thousands of fish in his time and would be able to tell. I just cant help but think he looks different then any Gibbus I have seen and so much like a diamond rhom. But I don't know Sh!t, lol so it doesn't mean much


That may be th ebest thing to do : rely on Frank's opinion about it. He knows the desriptions better than anyone I think.
Comparing with other gibbus always raisies the question, are the ones you are comparing them with, really gibbus ?

Personally I wouldn't know the exact difference . I'm even doubtful about the validity of the species itself.

The main difference in both specimen shown, is the head profile. The description on gibbus only mentions the convexity behind the head though, as being more convex then in S.rhombeus.

What spotting differences are there between them Frank ?
[/quote]
To me going by my gibbus I can see how similar they are in appearance but I also can see how different a gibbus looks. It's the little things (physical features) you pick up on over time while owning a gibbus. Also I got mine from AS so at least with mine I'm taking just some random dudes word for it but even then......


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## hastatus

memento said:


> I have really wondered if mine really was Gibbus or Rhom. I trust Frank though, he has seen thousands of fish in his time and would be able to tell. I just cant help but think he looks different then any Gibbus I have seen and so much like a diamond rhom. But I don't know Sh!t, lol so it doesn't mean much


That may be th ebest thing to do : rely on Frank's opinion about it. He knows the desriptions better than anyone I think.
Comparing with other gibbus always raisies the question, are the ones you are comparing them with, really gibbus ?

Personally I wouldn't know the exact difference . I'm even doubtful about the validity of the species itself.

The main difference in both specimen shown, is the head profile. The description on gibbus only mentions the convexity behind the head though, as being more convex then in S.rhombeus.

What spotting differences are there between them Frank ?
[/quote]
As you know I sent you a copy of the actual Castenau description. Not much to it. Jegu uses morphometrics which is old school and can be difficult to replicate. According to Jegu, gibbus is peppered with small and large dots on the body and flank. But the problem with that some rhombeus from different localities show similar features. Which comes to the real issue. Where was this fish collected. I agree with Ja'eh gibbus has more convex profile at subadult size. Unfortunately when it comes to the tail not a good indicator of gibbus.


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## MFNRyan

Well the guy I got my from was Rhomkeeper on here. Has been into fish for a very long time and was very knowledgeable about Piranha's in general. So between him and Frank saying it's a Gibbus, I must believe that it's a gibbus. He does not have the head shape or coloration, but they are to close to Rhom for a beginer like me to be able to sort through. So I take the experts word on the subject. I will however try to figure out where the fish was collected from.

One thing I always wondered. If a fish can't make the trip across the U.S. How the hell do they get here from south america? Most these fish you can't breed in the tank. That means my Manny, Sanchezi, and Gibbus most likely were caught by someone and brought over here some how?


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## Ja'eh

hastatus said:


> I have really wondered if mine really was Gibbus or Rhom. I trust Frank though, he has seen thousands of fish in his time and would be able to tell. I just cant help but think he looks different then any Gibbus I have seen and so much like a diamond rhom. But I don't know Sh!t, lol so it doesn't mean much


That may be th ebest thing to do : rely on Frank's opinion about it. He knows the desriptions better than anyone I think.
Comparing with other gibbus always raisies the question, are the ones you are comparing them with, really gibbus ?

Personally I wouldn't know the exact difference . I'm even doubtful about the validity of the species itself.

The main difference in both specimen shown, is the head profile. The description on gibbus only mentions the convexity behind the head though, as being more convex then in S.rhombeus.

What spotting differences are there between them Frank ?
[/quote]
As you know I sent you a copy of the actual Castenau description. Not much to it. Jegu uses morphometrics which is old school and can be difficult to replicate. According to Jegu, gibbus is peppered with small and large dots on the body and flank. But the problem with that some rhombeus from different localities show similar features. Which comes to the real issue. Where was this fish collected. I agree with Ja'eh gibbus has more convex profile at subadult size. *Unfortunately when it comes to the tail not a good indicator of gibbus.*
[/quote]

Do you mean that the caudal fin on my fish doesn't match up with the proper description of s. gibbus or do mean my theory/observation in general is irrelevant as one possable distinguishing feature of s. gibbus?


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## hastatus

Ja said:


> I have really wondered if mine really was Gibbus or Rhom. I trust Frank though, he has seen thousands of fish in his time and would be able to tell. I just cant help but think he looks different then any Gibbus I have seen and so much like a diamond rhom. But I don't know Sh!t, lol so it doesn't mean much


That may be th ebest thing to do : rely on Frank's opinion about it. He knows the desriptions better than anyone I think.
Comparing with other gibbus always raisies the question, are the ones you are comparing them with, really gibbus ?

Personally I wouldn't know the exact difference . I'm even doubtful about the validity of the species itself.

The main difference in both specimen shown, is the head profile. The description on gibbus only mentions the convexity behind the head though, as being more convex then in S.rhombeus.

What spotting differences are there between them Frank ?
[/quote]
As you know I sent you a copy of the actual Castenau description. Not much to it. Jegu uses morphometrics which is old school and can be difficult to replicate. According to Jegu, gibbus is peppered with small and large dots on the body and flank. But the problem with that some rhombeus from different localities show similar features. Which comes to the real issue. Where was this fish collected. I agree with Ja'eh gibbus has more convex profile at subadult size. *Unfortunately when it comes to the tail not a good indicator of gibbus.*
[/quote]

Do you mean that the caudal fin on my fish doesn't match up with the proper description of s. gibbus or *do mean my theory/observation in general is irrelevant as one possable distinguishing feature of s. gibbus?*
[/quote]
Unfortunately, it is when you add the wide spectrum of S. rhombeus range. Just one of those unfortunate features shared by the species during a period of their growth.


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## MFNRyan

I just talked to RhomKeeper and he said the fish came from G at shark aquarium or aquascape. He can't remember because he had three of them. He thinks it was from Brazil area


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> I just talked to RhomKeeper and he said the fish came from G at shark aquarium or aquascape. He can't remember because he had three of them. He thinks it was from Brazil area


Brazil is a big area with many rivers.


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## MFNRyan

Rio araguia


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> Rio araguia


Rio araguia is in Brazil.


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## MFNRyan

He said that was the river he thought it came from. Thats all the details I was able to get


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## Ja'eh

RedBelly11 said:


> Rio araguia


If my memory serves me correct s. gibbus is found only in Rio Tocantins which is a tributary of Rio Araguaia.


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## hastatus

Ja said:


> Rio araguia


If my memory serves me correct s. gibbus is found only in Rio Tocantins which is a tributary of Rio Araguaia.
[/quote]
Nope. Original description places fish in rio Araguaia.

The fish compared by Gery was from rio Tocantins but got his ID wrong. Fish locality remains Araguaia.


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## Ja'eh

Ok...I knew it was one or the other. Thanks.


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## hastatus

Ja said:


> Ok...I knew it was one or the other. Thanks.


No problem. The descriptions are a maze to navigate.


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## MFNRyan

So this means if he is correct on collection point it is 100% without doubt a Gibbus? I wrote G to see if he could verify for me


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## memento

In doubtful species, I don't think there is ever such a thing a "100% certainty"...


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## Ja'eh

RedBelly11 said:


> So this means if he is correct on collection point it is 100% without doubt a Gibbus? I wrote G to see if he could verify for me


Not necessarily because s. rhombeus is also found in Rio Araguaia.


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## MFNRyan

Yeah G wrote me back. Said to some Gibbus isn't even real, it is more a diff type of rhom then anything and it all depends on who you talk to if it's a gibbus or not. He no longer uses that term though because he thought the term was no longer valid


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## Ja'eh

I don't think George is really qualified to come right out and say that s. gibbus is not real. As far as what I can see on OPEFE it is stated that s. gibbus is a valid species.


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## memento

It is a valid species, though doubtful. Could be another morph of S.rhombeus.

Interesting is though, that according to Jegu and dos Santos, the two species have different shaped swimbladders.


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## Ja'eh

Honestly when I look at my gibbus it does look different from any rhom that I have seen. S. gibbus could be maybe a sub species of s. rhombeus I don't know, or s. gibbus could be similar to rhoms kind of like how s. compressus is similar to s. altuvei.


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## hastatus

Ja said:


> Honestly when I look at my gibbus it does look different from any rhom that I have seen. S. gibbus could be maybe a sub species of s. rhombeus I don't know, or s. gibbus could be similar to rhoms kind of like how s. compressus is similar to s. altuvei.


I agree with George the name is doubtful. But Jegu did rehabilitate the name to declare it valid. And yes both S rhombeus proper and gibbus are found together. What other authorities are considering that gibbus might be a subspecies of rhombeus
Certainly it shares a common feature the dark red eye. Future authority will one day retook at it. For now the name gibbus for a fish in araguaia remains valid.


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## MFNRyan

I'm sorry he did not say it was not valid he said hr thought it was no longer valid. I didn't word that correct. I'm sorry. G wouldn't speak out of line. He's a good guy an pretty smart with P's.


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> I'm sorry he did not say it was not valid he said hr thought it was no longer valid. I didn't word that correct. I'm sorry. G wouldn't speak out of line. He's a good guy an pretty smart with P's.


I know George is a good man. I know what he meant.


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## Ja'eh

I never doubted G as a good guy, I just meant that he's not working on the front lines when it comes to this debate or at least not that I know or read of.


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## hastatus

Ja said:


> I never doubted G as a good guy, I just meant that he's not working on the front lines when it comes to this debate or at least not that I know or read of.


George has his opinions on fish he regularly sees and catches. I wish it were that simple. Ternetzi is a good example of Georges opinion. All he can do is provide samples. All I can do is pressure authorities to relook at it. The issues George brings are limited to size and looking different. Those things which seem important to hobbyists does not matter in science. There had to be more definitive characters to make a species. Otherwise it will continue to be messy business not order.

In the case of ternetzi, an authority is looking at juvenile spotting different from all nattereri in the upper range. I'm looking for adult examples of rayed adipose fin. These are some of the valid features that can make a species. Not just life colors or size.


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