# I dont think I cycled the water...



## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

Yea, I dont think i cycled the tank, and i already have 4 healthy(i think) 1/2" baby rbp's eating pellets/flakes/worms/tiny pieces of shrimp n stuff, living in a 30gal.

All i did for the tanks water, was water conditioner and chlorine/ammonia/chloramine remover with a power filter that goes behind the tank. I dont think I cycled..

My question is....will my fishes be alright??


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## taylorhedrich (Mar 2, 2005)

Why do you think it isn't cycled? Did you even attempt to cycle it?

Chances are the fish will be ok. Depends on how high your spike is. The thing you really have to worry about is long term affects. Do you really want to put your fish through that?
~Taylor~


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

i didnt even know what a "cycle" was until i hit this forum..=/. I dont know if anything is cycled at all, all i have is what i just described about my tank, oh and also a amazon sword for decoration and its tiny benefits of a live plant.

Well...what should I do now?


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

You need to score a master testing kit for this hobby. It is the only true way to know whats going on with your water.


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

thank taylor + dr, ur inputs always appreciated.


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## taylorhedrich (Mar 2, 2005)

jesterx626 said:


> thank taylor + dr, ur inputs always appreciated.
> [snapback]1138182[/snapback]​


No problem. Try and get a test kit as soon as possible and give us some parameters. Don't get the dip strips, because they aren't as accurate as the liquid test kits.








~Taylor~


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## Scarlet (Apr 15, 2004)

How long has the tank been running?

If the product you're using truly does remove ammonia (as opposed to just denaturing it enough to render it less harmful to the fish) your tank will never cycle properly. Worth a quick double check.


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## metzthgar (Jul 20, 2005)

if your filter has been in another thank recently and not been washed then it might work


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## mashunter18 (Jan 2, 2004)

I dont think your fish will die.It is a matter of seeing where your water is at this point.
ammonia
NITRITE
NITRATE
ph

these 4 tests will suffice for now, see what those readings are and go from there.


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

Thanks everybody for the inputs. I jus picked up a master test kit and now imma test tha water n get back with the results


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

PH - 7.6

High range PH - 7.9

Ammonia - 0

Nitrite - 5.0

Nitrate - 80

To me it doesnt look so good...wutchu guys think? if theres somethin' wrong with the stats of my water then what do i do?


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

jesterx626 said:


> PH - 7.6
> 
> High range PH - 7.9
> 
> ...


Ok, if those numbers are correct you are well on your way as far as cycling concerns. I would do 20% water changes every other day to get those nitrites and nitrates down. That is about all you can do at this point.

Honestly that nitrite is high, BUT I have seen worse. How long have you had these fish in the tank? What water conditioner are you using?


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

i've had them for about a week to a week and a half. Today I did a 20-25%water change and re-added the water conditioner, amquel, and stress zyme. is that good so far?

oh im using Novaqua water conditioner
and Amquel for the chlorine/chloramine/ammonia.


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

jesterx626 said:


> i've had them for about a week to a week and a half. Today I did a 20-25%water change and re-added the water conditioner, amquel, and stress zyme. is that good so far?
> 
> oh im using Novaqua water conditioner
> and Amquel for the chlorine/chloramine/ammonia.
> [snapback]1139232[/snapback]​


Well you really do not need the Novaqua if you are using Amquel.

I asked about your water conditioner, because ammonia neutralizing products such as Amquel will hinder the toxicity of ammonia without slowing down the cycle. One drawback is the false ammonia reading, which you are experiencing now.

Well at this point your cycle is started, and the only thing I suggest is to maintain a water change schedule of 20% every other day to keep parameters safer for your fish.

One thing I will note as odd is your high Nitrates already. This early in the cycle I find it odd for it to be up to 80ppm after a 25% water change.

Good luck, and keep us posted.


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

Thanks for all of the help!


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

Well also before I did this test, i did feed them and there was a piece of algae wafer that i didnt take out yet, and lots of dirt n caca when i tossed around the gravel, maybe that could be one of the reasons.


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

jesterx626 said:


> Thanks for all of the help!
> [snapback]1139244[/snapback]​


Yea BTW, the Novaqua is not needed, because Amquel is supposed to neutralize chlorine as well, unless you are using the Novaqua to remove metals, and for it's slime coat enhancements.


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

jesterx626 said:


> Well also before I did this test, i did feed them and there was a piece of algae wafer that i didnt take out yet, and lots of dirt n caca when i tossed around the gravel, maybe that could be one of the reasons.
> [snapback]1139246[/snapback]​


That really shouldn't effect nitrate at this point, not right before doing your tests.

BTW how are they eating, and are the growing for you yet?


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

hell yea they're great fish, they explore the tank and swim around n chase each other n whatnot. they eat the pellets, flakes, mealworms, frozen brine shrimp n frozen blood worms, they eat alot mang. they live with 2 chinese algae eaters and the algae eaters did wonders for my amazon sword plant that had a layer of brown algae on them. the algae is completely gone=D. i'll let the algae eaters live with them until my piranhas are big enough and wanna eat them.

i notice the growth in them already just watching them everyday. they're close to around 1 inch now, been raising them since they were around half an inch a 3/4 an inch.


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Add a litle bit of pre-dissolved salt in your tank to prevent nitrIte poisoning. That imo is the number one killer of fish in non-cycled tank. A 1/2 teaspoon will be plenty for your tank. has the tank been running only a week to a week and a half also. If yes, your numbers don't add up imo. How long has the tank been running and with what in it for an ammonia source and what kind of filter ????


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

jerry_plakyda said:


> Add a litle bit of pre-dissolved salt in your tank to prevent nitrIte poisoning. That imo is the number one killer of fish in non-cycled tank. A 1/2 teaspoon will be plenty for your tank. has the tank been running only a week to a week and a half also. If yes, your numbers don't add up imo. How long has the tank been running and with what in it for an ammonia source and what kind of filter ????
> [snapback]1139254[/snapback]​


The numbers threw me off as well. I guarantee the Amquel is falsing the ammonia results, but those Nitrates at 80ppm, JP I can't explain that.....


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

reg table salt or aquarium salt??

The tank has been running for about 2-3 weeks before the fish went in.

The tank has been running totally for around 5-6 weeks?

I didnt add no source of ammonia, does Stress zyme count or does it just speed it up?

I use a Whisper powerfilter that goes behind the tank.


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

Ok, so the tank ran for about 3 weeks before you put the fish in, and you had nothing in the tank but water and filters?


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

I also had the amquel, novaqua, and stress zyme, thats all.


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Amquel will only give false readings on ammonia if he is using the Nessler based test kit. According to his results he has no ammonia. Imo it is impossible to have 80 ppm nitrates in 1 1/2 weeks with 5 ppm nitrates and no ammonia. What is the name of your test kit ??? After 1 and a half weeks a more realistic reading would be a positive ammonia reading with no nitrites and nitrates. I suggest you make sure you're following the directions exactly for your test kit.


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

i used Freshwater master test kit by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. Yea i followed the directions n tried to compare to the color chart the best that i can.


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

I also had a amazon sword in the tank before the fishes went in if that helps at all. I added florapride liquid fertilizer yesterday too, just so u guys know all the chemicals n whatnot that were going into my tank.


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

jerry_plakyda said:


> Amquel will only give false readings on ammonia if he is using the Nessler based test kit. According to his results he has no ammonia. Imo it is impossible to have 80 ppm nitrates in 1 1/2 weeks with 5 ppm nitrates and no ammonia. What is the name of your test kit ??? After 1 and a half weeks a more realistic reading would be a positive ammonia reading with no nitrites and nitrates. I suggest you make sure you're following the directions exactly for your test kit.
> [snapback]1139274[/snapback]​


Amquel can still have false readings with a salicylate based kit.....


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

For your Nitrate kit, are you shaking the Nitrate #2 bottle for AT LEAST 30 seconds before you put 10 drops in the tube, then shaking the tube for AT LEAST a minute afterwards?


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

yea, i shook it for 30 longggggg seconds, and 1 longgggg minute.


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

heh, well have u guys ever encountered somebody with a problem like mines?


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

doctorvtec said:


> jerry_plakyda said:
> 
> 
> > Amquel will only give false readings on ammonia if he is using the Nessler based test kit. According to his results he has no ammonia. Imo it is impossible to have 80 ppm nitrates in 1 1/2 weeks with 5 ppm nitrates and no ammonia. What is the name of your test kit ??? After 1 and a half weeks a more realistic reading would be a positive ammonia reading with no nitrites and nitrates. I suggest you make sure you're following the directions exactly for your test kit.
> ...


I semi retract that, it can false with Prime, not Amquel. (I too have been saucing, but with prescription Vicodon, for my back)


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

You are using good products. Novaqua and Amquel are excellent and work well together. It is possible the plant was giving off ammonia but i am no expert on plants. Maybe someone can comment on this. As far as helping your fish through the nitrIte spike, do as i advised on the salt on the previous post. Before putting in the salt i would do a 10 gallon water change to bring the nitrates down to safer levels. Once your tank is cycled nitrates are safe at 20-40 ppm range. I would do nothing else. Just ride it out until Ammonia and NitrItes are both zero. Good luck with your little killas,


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

Do i use regular table salt or aquarium salt?

and yea i'll be doing water changes every other day.


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

jesterx626 said:


> Do i use regular table salt or aquarium salt?
> 
> and yea i'll be doing water changes every other day.
> [snapback]1139297[/snapback]​


You can use table salt if that is all you have. Iodine in the small amounts will not be toxic.


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

doctorvtec said:


> jerry_plakyda said:
> 
> 
> > Amquel will only give false readings on ammonia if he is using the Nessler based test kit. According to his results he has no ammonia. Imo it is impossible to have 80 ppm nitrates in 1 1/2 weeks with 5 ppm nitrates and no ammonia. What is the name of your test kit ??? After 1 and a half weeks a more realistic reading would be a positive ammonia reading with no nitrites and nitrates. I suggest you make sure you're following the directions exactly for your test kit.
> ...


I'm not too sure about that Doc. Is there any documented proof about that. When i was a dummy in the beginning of this hobby, i used the exact products Novaqua and Amquel and i never had a false reading. Then i found out with my well water i didn't need those products


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

jerry_plakyda said:


> doctorvtec said:
> 
> 
> > jerry_plakyda said:
> ...


I retracted that, my mind moves slow on vicodin. I was thinking of Prime, which can cause false results in some cases with salicylate based kits.

I appologize for my error.

Shows you the good doc is only 99% perfect when he types faster then his braim works,


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

hahaha


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

Ok, so you are settled, do you water changes, add your salt, and watch your parameters.

Your scenario is intriguing me though. As Jerry and I have agreed, your numbers are not matching up. Do you mind doing your tests again to confirm those numbers?

I truely love water chemistry and love a challenge.


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

yea i'll do the testing again, but how soon or later should i do it? is it weekly or every 2 weeks or when?


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

jesterx626 said:


> yea i'll do the testing again, but how soon or later should i do it? is it weekly or every 2 weeks or when?
> [snapback]1139322[/snapback]​


If you got time, Id like to see you confirm the ones you did today now.

After that, since you are cycling, how about doing them right before your water changes, and letting us know your parameters so we can monitor your progression. I personally would love to see how this plays out.

After that, if you keep up with regular water changes (I.E. 40% a week), I would suggest at least once a month, so you know what is going on in your tank.


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

i'll retest right now.


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

Strange, very strange, now it shows it at 0. How can the 1st test n the 2nd test be so far off??

Well is "0" for nitrates good? or..?


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

jesterx626 said:


> Strange, very strange, now it shows it at 0. How can the 1st test n the 2nd test be so far off??
> 
> Well is "0" for nitrates good? or..?
> [snapback]1139346[/snapback]​


An error was made in one of the tests. I would do the nitrates a third time, to be sure of your results.


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

Ok I did it a third time and you wont believe the results. First it was 80 right? the 2nd to darkest red color, then the 2nd time was a yellow "0", and now the third time.....its the same color as the first test again! Red! Well its either "40" or "80" still, maybe inbetween i dont know...Doc, what do you think of this lol.


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

jesterx626 said:


> Ok I did it a third time and you wont believe the results. First it was 80 right? the 2nd to darkest red color, then the 2nd time was a yellow "0", and now the third time.....its the same color as the first test again! Red! Well its either "40" or "80" still, maybe inbetween i dont know...Doc, what do you think of this lol.
> [snapback]1139363[/snapback]​


I am questioning accuracy as far as testing is concerned. The 2nd reading made alot more sense then the 1st and third.

If you feel up to it, I would redo all the tests and see what you get, since it seems you are getting some discrepencies. Be sure to follow the intructions for each test carefully.


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

I dont understand how the Nitrate test would vary by so much from the white-ish yellow colored bar all the way down to tha red zone. Weird huh?

Well i'm done with testing, i'll try again next week or maybe sooner.

i have another question, i did the testing but i still dont understand what are the numbers im getting.

like what kind of ph, ammonia, nitrate and nitrite ranges am i looking to aim for?

Also can you explain to me in the most easiest lament terms of what ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, and ph are? i still dont get the difference of nitRATE and nitRITE and so on. And how does this cycle work?

Forgive the newbie


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

jesterx626 said:


> Forgive the newbie
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No problem man, I love helping out.

Ok, Ideally, after your cycle finally finishes, you want to have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and nitrates should stay as low as possible. pH, anything from 6.8 - 8.0 is fine as long as it is stable.

pH is the measure of alkalinity or acidity in water. 7.0 is considered "pure water", below that figure water is considered to be acidic, above and it is considered basic. Piranhas come from slightly acidic waters, but are very adaptable fish, and can live in a high pH as long as it is stable.

Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate all pertain to the Nitrogen cycle. Fish waste and decaying food will produce ammonia. Bacteria is colonized in your filters and they consume the ammonia. The waste of the bacteria produces Nitrite. Another form of bacteria develops in your filter media that consumes the Nitrite, and the waste produced makes Nitrates. The only way to efficiently remove Nitrates is with water changes.

Ammonia and nitrite are toxic to fish at low amounts. Nitrates has to be above 80-100 ppm before it becomes toxic.

After a tank is properly cycled, you should have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and you want to keep the nitrates as low as you can. Ideally, after a water change, you want your nitrates to be below 20 ppm.

I tried my best to explain is laymans terms, which isn't always easy. I hope this helps you out. And never hesitate to ask, we all have to learn somehow.


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

That is GREAT. It's the only easiest one i read so far. Thanks for helpin me out doc. you been helpin me out for the past 4 hours or so lol. thanks again!


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

jesterx626 said:


> That is GREAT. It's the only easiest one i read so far. Thanks for helpin me out doc. you been helpin me out for the past 4 hours or so lol. thanks again!
> [snapback]1139403[/snapback]​


No problem my friend, glad you understood.


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