# Another Attempt With Cariba



## primetime3wise

I figured i may as well give this one more shot with 3 large cariba sitting in my basement in a nice 75g...

Here are the articles i am basing this attempt off of. One is a general article about simulating the dry and rainy seasons, the other that has some really detailed info about how p. cariba spawn in nature:

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/adolfsson_dry%20and%20rainy%20seasons.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g5l31475154t0196/fulltext.html

For the dry season, I'll be lowering the water levels on my 75g a little each day, over the course of 10 days, until it reaches a point where it just a little over their dorsal fins. During this entire time, the temp on the tank will hover around 82-84. I took the carbon out of my filter, and added some plant fertilizer and blackwater extract, to build up humic substances. To be honest, on that part, i am not so sure about putting additives in the water, but i did it anyway.

after 10 days, the tank will sit as is with the lowered water, and i will only feed 1 or 2 times until there has been at least 19+ days of the dry season, total. then i start the rainy season.

the tank will be filled back up gradually, over the course of about 4-5 days USING RO WATER. here, i am not sure, and would value input on whether you guys think i should turn the tank's temp down to 78, and leave it there, or just add cooler water and let it go back up to 82+. according to that article on cariba in nature, it looks like they are spawning at around 78F. however, there are a lot of people who have success with fish spawning when the temp on the tank is higher.

if i recall, there is a member on another board that had a setup that tried to mimic rainfall, so i may look into that.

also, i will cut down the amount of time, using a timer, that they receive of light.

i only have 3 cariba @ about 9" in my 75g. hopefully there is at least 1 of each male and female.

those appear to me to be the most important variables, and there are some in that article that just can't be done. so we'll see. any input is appreciated by experienced hobbyists. i will try and get some pictures up soon, i am already on day two and have begun lowering the water levels and turning up the temp.

this is my third try and seems to me to be more along the lines of what is a more standard approach to breeding fish that need the wet/dry seasons. we'll see what happens. i can't say i am terribly optimistic about this, but you don't know till you try...


----------



## Dolphinswin

SOUNDS AWESOME! How will your filters work when the waters so low? Good luck


----------



## primetime3wise

my AC70 should still work. if i have to, being off a few days or a week or two is ok, as long as it is not a long term thing. an air stone in that situation is a must.


----------



## JoeDizzleMPLS

Glad to see you givin her another try... Lookin forward to your progress


----------



## AKSkirmish

IMHO
Your trying a bit too hard for this......
I do hope all the best for you and your adventure.......

Once I get the vid off my cell phone-I have something you want to see then......


----------



## Guest

Fingers crossed prime


----------



## BRUNER247

GL


----------



## Inflade

Dont give up! there may just be a chance that you dont have a female. hopefully thats not the case!


----------



## primetime3wise

thanks everyone. i'm gonna have some fun with it. i think i am gonna move the tank to an even more remote area of my basement, as they are near the stairs and are bothered. then use a webcam to watch them


----------



## Sanjo Eel

Sounds great primetime3wise, I really wish you the best of luck with this!!! I will be following this one for sure.








I am gonna try macs next, your thread on that was very informative and gave me some great ideas!
I am confident this can be done since it's already happened in captivity. You will be a piranha hero if you can do it.


----------



## locust

Im thinking it might be an idea to start with the smallest cariba you can get and put them thru the cyclic changes or whatever you call them from the earliest age rather than start with 9 ins ( adult ) fish that havent been thru previous adjustments?


----------



## BRUNER247

Gl x2


----------



## locust

^Reading the second link ..caribe seem so tied in with regional specifics, unlike reds that seem to have adapted to almost anywhere
Bruner.. chuck some 1 ins caribe in an outdoor pond in the spring and see what they do over a few seasons, bring them indoors in the winter..you never know what they might do
Edit... you`re not exactly "setting the cyclic clocks" or you are ( i agree) by starting at a young age , you`re starting them in the conditions they left off from as juves, thats not an issue breeding captive bred reds as they`re spawning in the conditions they were raised in
Isnt it true that most red spawners have been from raised groups starting off as juve groups rather than adult fish put together ?


----------



## BRUNER247

GL x3


----------



## ArttyFish

Would having a larger tank possibly help with the breeding efforts. I think it would. I have 5 large 8-9 inch Caribe in a eight feet by two feet by two feet 240 gallon tank. Is that just unheard of to give that much water and space to 5 Caribes?


----------



## Tropicalfishauction

primetime3wise said:


> I figured i may as well give this one more shot with 3 large cariba sitting in my basement in a nice 75g...
> 
> Here are the articles i am basing this attempt off of. One is a general article about simulating the dry and rainy seasons, the other that has some really detailed info about how p. cariba spawn in nature:
> 
> http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/adolfsson_dry%20and%20rainy%20seasons.html
> 
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/g5l31475154t0196/fulltext.html
> 
> For the dry season, I'll be lowering the water levels on my 75g a little each day, over the course of 10 days, until it reaches a point where it just a little over their dorsal fins. During this entire time, the temp on the tank will hover around 82-84. I took the carbon out of my filter, and added some plant fertilizer and blackwater extract, to build up humic substances. To be honest, on that part, i am not so sure about putting additives in the water, but i did it anyway.
> 
> after 10 days, the tank will sit as is with the lowered water, and i will only feed 1 or 2 times until there has been at least 19+ days of the dry season, total. then i start the rainy season.
> 
> the tank will be filled back up gradually, over the course of about 4-5 days USING RO WATER. here, i am not sure, and would value input on whether you guys think i should turn the tank's temp down to 78, and leave it there, or just add cooler water and let it go back up to 82+. according to that article on cariba in nature, it looks like they are spawning at around 78F. however, there are a lot of people who have success with fish spawning when the temp on the tank is higher.
> 
> if i recall, there is a member on another board that had a setup that tried to mimic rainfall, so i may look into that.
> 
> also, i will cut down the amount of time, using a timer, that they receive of light.
> 
> i only have 3 cariba @ about 9" in my 75g. hopefully there is at least 1 of each male and female.
> 
> those appear to me to be the most important variables, and there are some in that article that just can't be done. so we'll see. any input is appreciated by experienced hobbyists. i will try and get some pictures up soon, i am already on day two and have begun lowering the water levels and turning up the temp.
> 
> this is my third try and seems to me to be more along the lines of what is a more standard approach to breeding fish that need the wet/dry seasons. we'll see what happens. i can't say i am terribly optimistic about this, but you don't know till you try...


The only thing is they all could be male or female. I think you need a bigger group like 10.


----------



## primetime3wise

i'll never know for sure the history of this group. i got them at about 3"-4" from the same guy, but that doesn't mean they were necessarily from the same spawn/parents when they were imported.


----------



## Tropicalfishauction

primetime3wise said:


> i'll never know for sure the history of this group. i got them at about 3"-4" from the same guy, but that doesn't mean they were necessarily from the same spawn/parents when they were imported.


That's true.


----------



## BRUNER247

Gl x4


----------



## primetime3wise

i don't care to make an educated guess about their sexes. i might if i saw some prebreeding behavior, but even when i tried this on 5 of them i had little success that might indicate what their sexes were. with macs and reds i had a good idea of sex, with next building by the male and female hanging close by, up top, usually. but with this group of cariba i havn't seen any of that, unfortunately. and, yes i know i am even more limited with only 3 in a med sized tank.


----------



## FEEFA

Good luck Prime, my fingers are crossed for ya


----------



## primetime3wise

DAY 6: the tank is about 60% full. since the dry season is quite long in nature, i am really thinking i may take it another few weeks, past the 20 days i originally planned. at the height of the simulated dry season, even have the hob filter off and just run an air stone. i am thinking an additional 2-3 weeks.

when the water is at its lowest, i am probably going to move the tank to an area of my basement, more secluded and away from the stairs. then, cover one of the sides so no one is seen, at all. also, as i earlier said i am gonna have some fun with this project and setup a webcam on the tank, probably a few days before the dry seasons ends up until and through the rainy/wet season.










also, like the last two times, the cariba have really become much more skittish around me with the lower water levels so much lower. this one another reason i want them eventually as secluded as possible, and, i will run the dry season that much longer so they have more time to adapt.


----------



## shaneb

If you setup a webcam you should stream it to one of the free stream sites so we can all have a look see...

Here are some free streaming sites. If you decide to do it and need any help I am more then willing to walk you through it.. lol

Livestream
Justin.tv
ustream


----------



## Sacrifice

shaneb said:


> If you setup a webcam you should stream it to one of the free stream sites so we can all have a look see...
> 
> Here are some free streaming sites. If you decide to do it and need any help I am more then willing to walk you through it.. lol
> 
> Livestream
> Justin.tv
> ustream


That sounds like a good idea.


----------



## primetime3wise

yeah i was thinking that would be a cool option and will probably do just that. thanks for the suggestion of sites...i work in the I.T. field so i SHOULD be good with figuring it out, thanks for the offer.


----------



## Sacrifice

Just make sure that nobody will be able to see any type of *reflections* in anything through the webcam. Wouldn't want the entire world seeing you dance around in your underwear while you do water changes or anything.

Oops....meant reflections, lol


----------



## BRUNER247

GL


----------



## primetime3wise

^yeah, bruner that's part of why i am gonna take the last stage of the dry season that much longer, more time to settle after i move the tank. however, even 60% full it's still too much of a load. i figure like 3-4 weeks with the water just covering their dorsal fin.

sacrifice, at first i thought you said "make sure nobody will be able to see any type of RELATIONS in anything through the webcam"


----------



## BRUNER247

Word


----------



## primetime3wise

taken from this article, "How to create a rainy season in the aquarium"

http://www.dhinfo.org/2010/09/how-to-create-a-rainy-season-in-the-aquarium/

"In some species it was shown that the sex organs mature during the water changes at the beginning of the rainy season. Knifefish of the genus Eigenmannia (in particular the green knifefish (E. virescens) were bred as follows. For about six weeks the rainy season was imitated by slowly adding fully desalted water (about 5% of the tank volume) each day to a tank initially half full. In this way the salt content and pH value of the breeding water decreased, while the water level rose. In addition, a rain shower was simulated for several hours a day by spraying the filter water onto the water surface. When the tank was full, half of it was emptied, and the procedure was begun again. After the first spawning, additional simulation is not necessary but it is desirable sporadically as long as the desired water quality is maintained."

So, once i start the simulation of the rainy season, it could take quite a while for the cariba to breed, *if* they do. Again, this process is much more towards what is generally done to recreate the seasons, vs. my other two attempts where i barely even got into simulating the rainy season. i guess i just thought they would breed right away, within days of filling the tank back up, after creating the dry season over 2 or 3 weeks.

if you look at this article, again, especially the graph Fig. 1:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g5l31475154t0196/fulltext.html

in nature their sexual organs do mature during the "prespawning phrase". this would be the time in aquariums where the rainy season would then be recreated over several weeks, vs. the few days i did my other 2 times.

anyway, this is probably getting too technical and many of you could care less, lol. point is, i will have to do much more this time around to hopefully get them going.


----------



## Sacrifice

Well reflections/relations....just make sure that we can't see either, ROFL!!!


----------



## Guest

Why bother moving the tank? Wouldnt that cause more harm then good?


----------



## primetime3wise




----------



## primetime3wise

ksls said:


> Why bother moving the tank? Wouldnt that cause more harm then good?


i was thinking that, but i would like to afford them the most privacy as possible without covering the sids of the tank. the water level is almost down to the top of thier fins. i still have a good 2-3+ weeks before i start the rainy season, so that still gives them plenty of time to settle.


----------



## AKSkirmish

Pm sent

My info is only for you..........Same with video whe I get it......


----------



## BRUNER247

?


----------



## AKSkirmish

BRUNER247 said:


> ^^^ this right here is what's holding our hobby back!


What holds it back is people that accuse other's of wrong doing when in return them poeple have no damn clue whats up.....

And yeah I will hold back my info-
I was all about to share it with community until things got out of hand once I posted my caribe pics....









I will not tolerate being accused by people who assume









Please respect his thread....Want to talk
I'm open for some PM conversations....


----------



## primetime3wise

^ok, AK i have no problem with that. that's your call. i'll be judicious and careful about how i post what i learned from our conversations.


----------



## AKSkirmish

primetime3wise said:


> ^ok, AK i have no problem with that. that's your call. i'll be judicious and careful about how i post what i learned from our conversations.


No worries man...I wouldn't have shared it withyou if I didn't want to see your sucess with this process..

I wish you all the best luck............No sh*t...get this done.......


----------



## FEEFA

With the help of AK your odds of breeding just went up 50%.
Hope the third times the charm


----------



## primetime3wise

tank is about 1/3 full. gonna take just a little more out over the weekend, then leave it for a minimum of 2-3 weeks, probably longer. possibly over a month even. i am only running an air stone now, i turned off my filters and am not going to feed them for at least another 10 days, and even then a small amount. temp is hovering around 83, and when i initiate the rainy season, i will be using much cooler RO water to drop the tank's temp to like 76. i have to really keep tabs on the water quality, if it goes bad i may just add a really small sponge filter.

thinking i may just leave them where they are. not sure if i am up for moving an even 1/3 full 75g. plus, i don't think privacy is that important, partially because reds and macs breed with little need for it, as long as i am not disturbing the tank, and , this group is much less skittish than when i had reds, and even my macs. what i mean is, if they get in the mood, i doubt people walking past the tank, briefly, a few times a day will stop them. they only take notice when i get really close. i will say, though, they are def more jumpy with the water so low. when i add water back i will also be adding floating plants.


----------



## primetime3wise

since AK posted on the success he and his friend had, i don't mind saying i am not changing much from my original plan, may just take the dry season that much longer, and just let the tank sit in it's current state. basically it seems they bred for him in a 125g tank that was largely ignored for quite a while. nothing at all was done to try and get them going and it seems to have just happened... in the sense all that was done were some large water changes with very cool water. again, on a tank that did not have anything done to it for what would be considered VERY long to most hobbyists. AK reported to me that the tank was quite dirty, had a buildup of algae, and probably also even some ammonia etc... they seemed to have spawned in quite cool water as well, with the tank temp around 70 or so. i won't go that low, but i will probably do 74 or so. also, it was reported to me that all this happened in a tank that had a lot of traffic around it...hence partly my decision to just keep the tank where it is. i def. think it makes sense they went at it in cooler water, as that is what happens with the onset of the rainy season. this will depart from my other two attempts where i tried very warm water.

unfortunately it's partly speculation about what got his group going. i still think temp and ph are the most important factors (assuming you have 1 each m/f). other than that it must have been quite a contrast for the fish to be in real cruddy water for quite a while, than have nice water all of a sudden. oxygen levels could also have played a role (???)


----------



## AKSkirmish

primetime3wise said:


> since AK posted on the success he and his friend had, i don't mind saying i am not changing much from my original plan, may just take the dry season that much longer, and just let the tank sit in it's current state. basically it seems they bred for him in a 125g tank that was largely ignored for quite a while. nothing at all was done to try and get them going and it seems to have just happened... in the sense all that was done were some large water changes with very cool water. again, on a tank that did not have anything done to it for what would be considered VERY long to most hobbyists. AK reported to me that the tank was quite dirty, had a buildup of algae, and probably also even some ammonia etc... they seemed to have spawned in quite cool water as well, with the tank temp around 70 or so. i won't go that low, but i will probably do 74 or so. also, it was reported to me that all this happened in a tank that had a lot of traffic around it...hence partly my decision to just keep the tank where it is. i def. think it makes sense they went at it in cooler water, as that is what happens with the onset of the rainy season. this will depart from my other two attempts where i tried very warm water.
> 
> unfortunately it's partly speculation about what got his group going. i still think temp and ph are the most important factors (assuming you have 1 each m/f). other than that it must have been quite a contrast for the fish to be in real cruddy water for quite a while, than have nice water all of a sudden. oxygen levels could also have played a role (???)


Cheers man
Like I stated to you.....I wish things went differently with the tank-But I had no control over it...they literally spawned(when I wasn't prepared to document correctly) and the next day when I went in-my friend had sold the tank and the reds and moved the caribe out of it where they now sit in my 40 brdr tank...

One is also right that they were kept in horrible conditions....felt bad for them but then again-wasn't my tank to deal with.....
Tank sat in my cigar lounge where it see's very high traffic.....The tank also sits on an outside wall and draws the cold air right through it..I can not report anything to due with water params or temp..the only thing I can say is that ammonia could be smelled greatly just above the tank and the water was very cold to the touch.I guesstimate 68 to 70 degree's taking in the fact of the cold comming through wall as well....

Anyhow I might as wll let my info out...sh*t people wont leave me alone about it..

People will die when they get to finally see the tank....and the conditions they were kept in.......They will also get to see a breeding caribe in color......


----------



## primetime3wise

cheers to you as well. more than anything, i have to thank you for giving me HOPE that this can actually happen in home aquariums. you do realize, that you and Jim Smith have the only first hand accounts of cariba breeding in aquariums?

do you know what kind of filtration was being run, and how an air stone was set up? i assume, as well, with those large water changes had a role to play with oxygen levels in the tank. a similar thing happens in the rainy season with lots of new, fresh water.


----------



## AKSkirmish

primetime3wise said:


> cheers to you as well. more than anything, i have to thank you for giving me HOPE that this can actually happen in home aquariums. you do realize, that you and Jim Smith have the only first hand accounts of cariba breeding in aquariums?
> 
> do you know what kind of filtration was being run, and how an air stone was set up? i assume, as well, with those large water changes had a role to play with oxygen levels in the tank. a similar thing happens in the rainy season with lots of new, fresh water.


Yeah although he has detail......My friend screwed his up......But I'm not worried-I got to see it first hand and have small video.......Not too concerned with providing proof to other's.......I'm not about to boast and act like I accomplished something....lol

Filtration was 2 emp 400's and nothing more.no air stone in this tank.....The large water changes took place after the large feeding that went bad.....


----------



## Sanjo Eel

My first pair of reds (ok my first actual FISH) were kept in terrible tank conditions, and they spawned a lot. 
Thanks for sharing that info AK. Captive breeding is so important to the future of this hobby....


----------



## Uncle Jesse

AKSkirmish said:


> cheers to you as well. more than anything, i have to thank you for giving me HOPE that this can actually happen in home aquariums. you do realize, that you and Jim Smith have the only first hand accounts of cariba breeding in aquariums?
> 
> do you know what kind of filtration was being run, and how an air stone was set up? i assume, as well, with those large water changes had a role to play with oxygen levels in the tank. a similar thing happens in the rainy season with lots of new, fresh water.


Yeah although he has detail......My friend screwed his up......But I'm not worried-I got to see it first hand and have small video.......Not too concerned with providing proof to other's.......I'm not about to boast and act like I accomplished something....lol

Filtration was 2 emp 400's and nothing more.no air stone in this tank.....The large water changes took place after the large feeding that went bad.....
[/quote]

Is the vid posted?


----------



## the_w8

I don't think so because people were being buttholes and accusing him doing certain things to the caribas that weren't true.


----------



## primetime3wise

^^so many damn presumptuous people on this damn site, nowadays, and are quite frankly ruining it. how about learning the facts before you make an ill advised opinion?? instead of dragging your own arrogance into the debate?

i honestly thought AK may have been a little oversensitive, but now i am seeing what he means.


----------



## BRUNER247

3 members said something about the lip. But its still getting dragged on like it was a big deal. Who cares about a missing lip, it happens.if you don't wanna share the footage then don't. But no need to drag the lip thing out for post after post. Hell even the 3 apologized but its still being dragged along. You guys need to recognize who was saying the lip was cut in the first place(noobs that don't know any better)n take it for what its worth n move on. Some members(including myself) would like to see the footage n because a couple noobs think they know it all have ruined it for all of us. I'm not gonna beg to see the footage(I've seen spawning fish before)if you put it up awesome, if not oh well. But give the lip thing a rest already.


----------



## primetime3wise

i thought that, by, "the_w8"'s post, more people were getting at him the past few days. he still has a point about many of the current members...


----------



## primetime3wise

as far as the fish. not much going on, now. they have been just sitting in my 75g with the water about 1/3 full... just a little past their dorsal fins. the tank's temp is around 83 or 84. i'll let them sit, at least another 2 or 3 weeks before trying anything, that is, starting my simulation of the rainy season. i took away the hob filter and am only running an air stone. i might mess with even removing that shortly before i start the rainy/wet season, but, if they look like they are breathing at the water's surface, i will replace it.

it's all about figuring out what factors are key with that species. with most i would assume water temp and ph. hopefully, the much cooler water does it this time around. with AK's experience, i just don't know. it makes me think it is possible, but doesn't give much practical knowledge about what got them going. i don't know...possibly with pygos other than reds, the less that is changed over time is better? it boggles my mind that they bred so readily just after being switched from poor conditions to much more ideal ones.


----------



## BRUNER247

Sweet back to the good stuff.lol. Glad things are still moving along smoothly. Good luck prime!


----------



## primetime3wise

thanks. it's good to be back on topic :/


----------



## Sanjo Eel

Are you still going to set up a webcam primetime? That would be neat-o.


----------



## Sacrifice

Sanjo Eel said:


> Are you still going to set up a webcam primetime? *That would be neat-o.*


I second that one.


----------



## primetime3wise

probably, it would help make it fun. not sure when, yet, maybe if i get some time over the weekend, if not then closer to, but before, i start the rainy season.

also, since AK's buddy had results with a filty tank, thinking i may just pee in there...


----------



## Sacrifice

primetime3wise said:


> probably, it would help make it fun. not sure when, yet, maybe if i get some time over the weekend, if not then closer to, but before, i start the rainy season.
> 
> also, since AK's buddy had results with a filty tank, *thinking i may just pee in there...*










I don't know about peeing in there, but you could actually toss some mud in the tank to give it a really murky look/feel. You never know it could really stimulate them, then when you give them a good clean water change they'll love it. On second thought I don't think that I would just toss it in there, maybe just fill a bucket up with water and toss some dirt in there to make it really dirty then only pour the dirty water in the tank.


----------



## Sanjo Eel

Are you running peat in that tank?


----------



## BRUNER247

In the finally week of the dry I'd take em to the edge.wait em out till they're surface breathing, begging for fresh water.just like what they would experience in the wild. Rainy season starts I'd throw some brine in the tank also.make em think wet seasons here n food for fry is plentiful.


----------



## primetime3wise

^some really good ideas there, guys. i was running some peat, initially, but took the hob off that it was going through. just running an airstone and heater @ 83-84. i did toss in some BW extract and even plant fertilizer. i could make the tank more filthy by maybe tossing what i have vac'd out of my 125g. i esp. like the brine shrimp idea, similiar to what i have read about mosquito larvae being available with the rainy season. good stuff i just may do a week or days before i start the RO water. i will be feeding them live, most likely, a few times to get them excited...i don't think in over a year of having these guys i ever fed live. i also like the surface breathing idea, and can just turn off the air stone for some time.

@ 84 the water is evaporating quickly. i even had to just toss some in the tank because the water level was right at the peak of their dorsal fins.

and don't worry, i won't pee in the tank







that's like something an idiot on youtube would do


----------



## primetime3wise

i actually kind of enjoy these little breeding projects. thinking if this doesn't work, may just sell 1 of them and add 2 diff ones, if i can find caribe in my area. or, at the same time, i would like to give terns a try, as well.


----------



## BRUNER247

How bout bunch of Molly babies, or guppies(babies & adults) or a convict pr with fry? Add ton of floating plants, when wet starts. Last week I'd really make em think the reaper coming for em. Surface breathing, nasty water, 3"-4" deep. That would have em looking at life lil different.


----------



## primetime3wise

yeah, i agree with what you are saying. floating plants for sure, they make any fish feel a little more secure.


----------



## Sacrifice

Yes when death's staring me in the face I get horny and think about breeding as well, LOL, may just work









No for real those all sound like really good ideas. Man I hope this works Primetime3wise. If nothing else this has been a very educational thread. Can you add some pix and let us see what's going on, I'm using my imagination, but real picks would be cool.


----------



## primetime3wise

facing death might be a little extreme, but drastic changes in water quality and other environmental factors are def. a trigger...less oxygen from little rainfall, ph, temp, and maybe even a little ammonia buildup (maybe only in home aquariums). availability of food for sure. i have not fed them i think, since i started this. in nature some of the fish are so food deprived that by the end of the dry season they look like skeletons with heads on them.

i'll get some more pics up shortly. "sacrifice" there are some, already, in this thread, from like a week to 10 days ago.

oh, and the webcam thing, i will probably start a few days before i start the rainy season...nothing too exciting now as they are just 3 cariba sitting in shallow water. i was gonna do it just for myself so i could keep tabs on them from work, but, if others want to see that's cool. one thing that will be a drastic change from my first two attempts, is that i will simulate the rainy season for weeks, and not days, or, at least, till they spawn. i think i made the mistake of thinking that if they were gonna spawn, it would be within a day or two of the end of the dry season.


----------



## primetime3wise

just took these. tank is about 40% of full...i had to add some water last night because it was getting really close to their dorsal fins.



























sorry about the quality, not the greatest, one of these days i will fiddle with my camera settings.


----------



## the_w8

pretty nifty...Wish you the best of luck...In the past I thought my caribas were getting ready to breed and then when things got funky, they munched up the female and she was full of eggs


----------



## JamesR

It will be quite an achievement if you pull this off primetime3wise but it sounds like it is doable if you know what you are doing.

Check out this old post from 2006 and a mini article about a successful Cariba breeder:

"According to hobbyist and business owner, Jim Smith formerly of Lurking In The Weeds Pet Store in Michigan, who has successfully bred this species, he recommends keeping an air stone going on one side of the tank. This way when you simulate a dry season (for 1 week) you can turn off filters. Drop the water level down 20% of fill. Keep a close watch of weather patterns as Jim says these fish are effected by barometric pressure (some authorities dispute this), but I personally have seen a much greater degree of pre-breeding behavior at the start of rains here in Oregon. At the onset of the rainy season, raise the water level up again at fill..."


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

JamesR said:


> *It will be quite an achievement if you pull this off primetime3wise but it sounds like it is doable if you know what you are doing.*
> Check out this old post from 2006 and a mini article about a successful Cariba breeder:
> 
> "According to hobbyist and business owner, Jim Smith formerly of Lurking In The Weeds Pet Store in Michigan, who has successfully bred this species, he recommends keeping an air stone going on one side of the tank. This way when you simulate a dry season (for 1 week) you can turn off filters. Drop the water level down 20% of fill. Keep a close watch of weather patterns as Jim says these fish are effected by barometric pressure (some authorities dispute this), but I personally have seen a much greater degree of pre-breeding behavior at the start of rains here in Oregon. At the onset of the rainy season, raise the water level up again at fill..."


It was quite an acheivment when he bred reds and macs, now hes just showing off lol...jk

Hope you cna do it as i want some caribe! Another suggestion would be adding some floating plants when your getting closer to the "rainy season" as rio orrinoco has a ton of floating vegitation but im not sure on the lights you have.


----------



## JoeDizzleMPLS

If you want some floating plants, I have TONS of extra salvinia minima, I can stuff a box full and ship to ya on Monday if you're interested.


----------



## primetime3wise

^i think i'm ok, but thanks, i have a ton of fake ones, and i don't think it matters much if they are real or fake. let me think about it, it might not be a bad idea to toss LIVE ones in there about a week or 10 days before the rainy season. however, the light is very dim on the tank so i don't think they would last too long.

JamesR, i tried using a similar method to what jim smith did, without success. so, now, i am using a method that is much more similar to what needs to be done to simulate the wet/dry seasons...though there is room for debate as to the exact method used, esp. length of the seasons.

i wish more people were trying because countries in S.A. are only going to be getting more restrictive on what they export...isn't venezuela already SUPPOSED to be that way?


----------



## BRUNER247

I said same thing months ago. Getting these & other piranha are only going to get harder in years to come. With rivers being dammed, cool weather patterns that are killing millions of fish at a time, n rivers drying up.its only a matter of time before the imports suffer or become too exspensive.everyone wants to keep them but not many are wanting to even try spawning these fish. I don't understand why the venders aren't helping breeders out with some of these fish(geryi, terns, cariba ect ect)IMO it only makes sense to want these fish spawned right here.captive cariba would sell like hot cakes. As would terns, piraya ect. Cheaper shipping, healthier fish. Which would in turn provide the vender with cheaper fish for the public. Unfortunately venders are greedy, their eyes are on the $$$$ & aren't seeing the big picture.but its all of us that are gonna be wishing we did something while we had the chance.


----------



## BRUNER247

I said same thing months ago. Getting these & other piranha are only going to get harder in years to come. With rivers being dammed, cool weather patterns that are killing millions of fish at a time, n rivers drying up.its only a matter of time before the imports suffer or become too exspensive.everyone wants to keep them but not many are wanting to even try spawning these fish. I don't understand why the venders aren't helping breeders out with some of these fish(geryi, terns, cariba ect ect)IMO it only makes sense to want these fish spawned right here.captive cariba would sell like hot cakes. As would terns, piraya ect. Cheaper shipping, healthier fish. Which would in turn provide the vender with cheaper fish for the public. Unfortunately venders are greedy, their eyes are on the $$$$ & aren't seeing the big picture.but its all of us that are gonna be wishing we did something while we had the chance. Also IMO the difference between fake n real plants for spawning purposes is like night & day! IMO if your going through all this trouble, why waste a effort on fake plants when the real deal is available? Piranha love chewing up plants. I don't understand why go though all this n then fall short on real plants.dying & decaying plants might play a vital roll in this. It might be a combination of little things & if one key part isn't there, the lock isn't going to open. I wouldn't of added more water neither. I don't care if it was touching their fins(water level) I'd let it drop so they have to sit angled(3"-4" deep)not completely sideways but I'd make em lean good for the last week.you all can can me mean or cruel, but its still not even close to being as harsh as mother nature.


----------



## locust

Maybe the isnt a big interest in breeding caribe commercially and to the masses as it were is that we already have a piranha that fits that description..the red belly. Whats the difference between a caribe and a red to those who are starting out in piranha if both were available as cbs, not a lot i would think?


----------



## JoeDizzleMPLS

primetime3wise said:


> ^i think i'm ok, but thanks, i have a ton of fake ones, and i don't think it matters much if they are real or fake. let me think about it, it might not be a bad idea to toss LIVE ones in there about a week or 10 days before the rainy season. however, the light is very dim on the tank so i don't think they would last too long.


This stuff doesn't need much light at all to live, it won't spread as fast, but it'll stay alive. I took some out a few weeks back and tossed it into a 5 gallon bucket because I was going to ship some out, but I ended up taking some new plants from the tank instead, I forgot about the bucket and a week later I went to dump it out thinking they'd be rotten and they were all still bright green and healthy -- they were doing fine with just a little spill-over from the room lighting that made it to the bottom of the bucket. I always have plenty of the stuff, so let me know if you decide you wanna try it out.


----------



## primetime3wise

BRUNER247 said:


> I said same thing months ago. Getting these & other piranha are only going to get harder in years to come. With rivers being dammed, cool weather patterns that are killing millions of fish at a time, n rivers drying up.its only a matter of time before the imports suffer or become too exspensive.everyone wants to keep them but not many are wanting to even try spawning these fish. I don't understand why the venders aren't helping breeders out with some of these fish(geryi, terns, cariba ect ect)IMO it only makes sense to want these fish spawned right here.captive cariba would sell like hot cakes. As would terns, piraya ect. Cheaper shipping, healthier fish. Which would in turn provide the vender with cheaper fish for the public. Unfortunately venders are greedy, their eyes are on the $$$$ & aren't seeing the big picture.but its all of us that are gonna be wishing we did something while we had the chance. Also IMO the difference between fake n real plants for spawning purposes is like night & day! IMO if your going through all this trouble, why waste a effort on fake plants when the real deal is available? Piranha love chewing up plants. I don't understand why go though all this n then fall short on real plants.*dying & decaying plants might play a vital roll in this*. It might be a combination of little things & if one key part isn't there, the lock isn't going to open. I wouldn't of added more water neither. I don't care if it was touching their fins(water level) I'd let it drop so they have to sit angled(3"-4" deep)not completely sideways but I'd make em lean good for the last week.you all can can me mean or cruel, but its still not even close to being as harsh as mother nature.


i was thinking just that, with dying and decaying plants... i still have about *minimum* 10 days to 2 weeks before i start, so i might take joe up on his offer. also, i am going to let the water go down even lower as i approach the rainy season, it's just evaporating a little too quickly is all.

i agree 100% with what you said about the importance of captive breeding. say goodbye to some species over the next several years.

even if i fail, i am going to try again...will sell at least 1 and get two more, *if* i can. also def. want to try terns...cariba and ternetzi seem the most logical step after rbp and macs, who tend to spawn much more readily. if WE (as in, everyone in this hobby) don't figure something out, those will be the only two species available in years to come.


----------



## locust

But, look how different a cb red is to a wildie , if terns were bred now would we in 100 years time (or whatever same amount in years that reds have been bred ) be able to tell the difference between a cb tern and a cb red?


----------



## BRUNER247

Rbp haven't been tank raised even close to a hundred years. This ?? Goes onto a totally different problem I've been wondering about. Selective breedings. As it stands now very very few are actually breeding rbp or macs to actually better the bloodline. Fish are just throwed together without any thoughts to size, shape, or coloration ect.hell I'm probably the only breeder of rbp that even culls the slower growing babies. Its up to the breeders of these fish & any other breeder to breed the highest quility fish available & cull any thraits that are undesirable.breeders are the reason captive reds aren't as red as wild caught.


----------



## primetime3wise

locust said:


> But, look how different a cb red is to a wildie , if terns were bred now would we in 100 years time (or whatever same amount in years that reds have been bred ) be able to tell the difference between a cb tern and a cb red?


hopefully, we'll see







i would think there would still be some noticeable differences because of genetics...maybe not as much, but still noticeable. when i had mac fry they were extremely cannibalistic and aggressive compared to rb fry. that;s only one generation of captive breeding...so, like i initially said, hopefully we'll see... genetics will always play a role.

regardless, if i am successful it can only help towards the breeding of any other species of piranha, esp. those that tend to tolerate themselves pretty decently...thinking the holy grail would be piraya and maybe geryi. people would want cheap, good looking piraya all day long over rbp. i'll even toss rhoms in the debate.

so, are you saying that, if in 10, 25, or 50 years, only reds and macs are available, that is fine with you? they are the only two that seem to breed readily. unfortunately, i think it is closer to that than what some people want to think. actually so few are even breeding macs, i doubt they will be around much. even cariba only seem to be available once a year now in limited quantities. hell, it may be much closer than even 10 years...i've seen a drastic reduction in what is available since i stared on this site 7 years ago.

as far as breeding for the looks and attitude of the fish, lol, we are quite a ways from even contemplating that with cariba. it's a good point, though, as selective breeding is important when planning it over the long run...esp. for the health and looks of the fish, and with piranhas, aggression and the more dominant ones.


----------



## locust

primetime3wise said:


> But, look how different a cb red is to a wildie , if terns were bred now would we in 100 years time (or whatever same amount in years that reds have been bred ) be able to tell the difference between a cb tern and a cb red?


hopefully, we'll see







i would think there would still be some noticeable differences because of genetics...maybe not as much, but still noticeable. when i had mac fry they were extremely cannibalistic and aggressive compared to rb fry. that;s only one generation of captive breeding...so, like i initially said, hopefully we'll see... genetics will always play a role.

regardless, if i am successful it can only help towards the breeding of any other species of piranha, esp. those that tend to tolerate themselves pretty decently...thinking the holy grail would be piraya and maybe geryi. people would want cheap, good looking piraya all day long over rbp. i'll even toss rhoms in the debate.

so, are you saying that, if in 10, 25, or 50 years, only reds and macs are available, that is fine with you? they are the only two that seem to breed readily. unfortunately, i think it is closer to that than what some people want to think. actually so few are even breeding macs, i doubt they will be around much. even cariba only seem to be available once a year now in limited quantities. hell, it may be much closer than even 10 years...i've seen a drastic reduction in what is available since i stared on this site 7 years ago.

as far as breeding for the looks and attitude of the fish, lol, we are quite a ways from even contemplating that with cariba. it's a good point, though, as selective breeding is important when planning it over the long run...esp. for the health and looks of the fish, and with piranhas, aggression and the more dominant ones.
[/quote]
I was coming at the topic from a different angle as such rather than stating it as on opinion or saying whats the point in breeding other species, theres nothing more positive than trying to breed them, and it whats makes the hobby the much more interesting


----------



## Johnny_Zanni




----------



## primetime3wise

2nd vid was really sweet *IF he got anything from the group???


----------



## primetime3wise

looking at his posts here, he has a few threads inquiring about breeding cariba, and even an attempt, but then it leaves off any positive results he may of had.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Yea I just posted to show. Maybe message him and ask. Im honestly not sure how much english he speaks seeing as he is from turkey but it is worth a try.


----------



## primetime3wise

he stopped posting like a year and a half ago, and i'm not even sure if that is just aggression or dispute over pecking order...

gonna pm him and see if he replies with more info.


----------



## AKSkirmish

primetime3wise said:


> he stopped posting like a year and a half ago, and i'm not even sure if that is just aggression or dispute over pecking order...
> 
> gonna pm him and see if he replies with more info.


Myself seen zero to do with breeding or spawning in them video's..........But would be curious as to here the outcome to this story as well..
Post it up if you get it please...


----------



## primetime3wise

COULD be getting interesting. i just disturbed them as i had to go down to my basement. two are hanging out together while the 3rd is on the end of the tank. however, one of the two together was very noticeably dark, esp. compared to the other two. trying for a decent pic. if i get one i will post it, otherwise i will update tomorrow.

with the species that need the wet/dry seasons, i am not sure if this means anything because i don't know if i would expect darkening to occur during the simulation of the dry season, or until my version of the rainy season starts? anyone have an answer to that? with reds and macs i didn't have to worry about that, they would just darken and breed....i HIGHLY doubt my hopeful pair would go at it in such shallow water.


----------



## primetime3wise

pictures are crap, i will take some early tomorrow if he looks as dark.


----------



## BRUNER247

Who's to say they don't spawn at the very end of the dry season? Low pressure telln em when its about to rain & spawn? It would give their fry a slight advantage over other fish that wait till right after the rains start. But I believe they wait till it rains & the forest opens up.but I'm sure they still spawn in warmer, shallow water. I think they'd get darker when they're getting close.must be doing something right. Keep it going! Notice any starting to bulge? Probably one of the still lighter colored one I'd guess. Male probably first to turn dark(if female even does, doubt it be as dark as male)& pick a spot for a nest & start grooming it.


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

The second vid looks liek more of a (fight which ive seen vids liek this between differnt pygo species). Hopefully it was a breeding, but other then the vid i havnt seen any info to go on. Who is the member whos vid this is? I think i rember piranhamadness or yourrocket trying but i dont know if if they got anything.


----------



## primetime3wise

BRUNER247 said:


> Who's to say they don't spawn at the very end of the dry season? Low pressure telln em when its about to rain & spawn? It would give their fry a slight advantage over other fish that wait till right after the rains start. But I believe they wait till it rains & the forest opens up.but I'm sure they still spawn in warmer, shallow water. I think they'd get darker when they're getting close.must be doing something right. Keep it going! Notice any starting to bulge? Probably one of the still lighter colored one I'd guess. Male probably first to turn dark(if female even does, doubt it be as dark as male)& pick a spot for a nest & start grooming it.


you know you just made me realize that it was raining heavily here last night, the most it's rain in quite a while...i didn't think of it until you mentioned rain and low pressure. that could have been the primary reason for the darkening. the one i mentioned is not as dark right now, still darker than the other two, but not as much as last night. weather here is still crap, but not raining like it was last night. i will take pics this evening if i see darkening to the degree i did last night.

makes me think about creating a simulated rain storm to act as a trigger...a guy on MFK built one with instructions, in order to create the effect of rainfall, to spawn rbps.

other than that, awaiting floating plants from joe. gonna toss em in there and see what the effect is. i also have some coconut fiber, so i am gonna toss more of it in the tank to act as a hopeful spawning site...as some of you know they like to lay eggs around plant roots or similiar, and the coconut fiber acts as that.

not 100% sure on a start date for the rainy season, will probably be a week from friday, day after thanksgiving. that could change to sooner if i see more promise with them.


----------



## locust

primetime3wise said:


> COULD be getting interesting. i just disturbed them as i had to go down to my basement. two are hanging out together while the 3rd is on the end of the tank. however, one of the two together was very noticeably dark, esp. compared to the other two. trying for a decent pic. if i get one i will post it, otherwise i will update tomorrow.
> 
> with the species that need the wet/dry seasons, i am not sure if this means anything because i don't know if i would expect darkening to occur during the simulation of the dry season, or until my version of the rainy season starts? anyone have an answer to that? with reds and macs i didn't have to worry about that, they would just darken and breed....i HIGHLY doubt my hopeful pair would go at it in such shallow water.


Have you contact the "Fish from Venezeula" guy ( dont know his name) ? Maybe he could shed light on some of these questions as hes in the field with the fish .
First time my reds darkened to spawn was right after a big cool wc, but then as you know you dont have to anything for further spawnings with reds.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

"Waits to get sued for copyright"


----------



## primetime3wise

after adding joe's floating plants and a few of my fake ones:


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

My margins have been raped.


----------



## primetime3wise

Johnny_Zanni said:


> My margins have been raped.


should be auto resized? is for me in both firefox and ie8, which is why i didn't mess much with them


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

It does just takes a couple of seconds. Its not big deal. Lookin good. is that duck weed?


----------



## primetime3wise

only thing, now it's harder to tell if they might be darkening from breeding, or just my dim lighting and plants blocking it.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Do you think ammonia might have anything to do with breeding?


----------



## primetime3wise

Johnny_Zanni said:


> It does just takes a couple of seconds. Its not big deal. Lookin good. is that duck weed?


salvinia minima, the real small round ones...i guess, i am pretty ignorant about live plants, as i NEVER use them. any of the larger ones are just fake.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Double post


----------



## primetime3wise

Johnny_Zanni said:


> Do you think ammonia might have anything to do with breeding?


i guess it could, that is a hard one. typically the two most common triggers SEEM to be temperature and PH...anyone that has bred rbp can attest to this, as a nice cool water change will sometimes be all that is needed.

in the sense they might go from real crappy water to much nicer, it could, but something like oxygen levels may even be more important...just before i kick in the rainy season i will turn off the air stone. i actually have been meaning to check ammonia levels again...i think a little might not be a bad thing...

it's so hard to say, so many variables, and this hasn't been none much, so, yeah, it get;s a little confusing


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Im just brainstorming about what AK said with his friends tank. With the rotting fish and waste during the dry season there may be a rise in ammonia.


----------



## primetime3wise

locust said:


> COULD be getting interesting. i just disturbed them as i had to go down to my basement. two are hanging out together while the 3rd is on the end of the tank. however, one of the two together was very noticeably dark, esp. compared to the other two. trying for a decent pic. if i get one i will post it, otherwise i will update tomorrow.
> 
> with the species that need the wet/dry seasons, i am not sure if this means anything because i don't know if i would expect darkening to occur during the simulation of the dry season, or until my version of the rainy season starts? anyone have an answer to that? with reds and macs i didn't have to worry about that, they would just darken and breed....i HIGHLY doubt my hopeful pair would go at it in such shallow water.


Have you contact the "Fish from Venezeula" guy ( dont know his name) ? Maybe he could shed light on some of these questions as hes in the field with the fish .
First time my reds darkened to spawn was right after a big cool wc, but then as you know you dont have to anything for further spawnings with reds.
[/quote]

i'm planning for a pretty long, maybe even like 2-3 weeks, simulation of the rainy season. gonna shoot for a tank temp of around 74...AK's spawned at even cooler...so i am gonna go with that...in nature it is around that once the rainy season really kicks in. i know how my reds and macs spawned, but like i have been saying, this is different...trying to shoot for something a little closer to what they would see in nature. also, in my first two attempts i did go with a much higher temp to try and get them going. tank is around 82-83 right now, and 8 degrees or so will def. have some sort of affect on them.


----------



## primetime3wise

Johnny_Zanni said:


> "Waits to get sued for copyright"


no toying with the OP


----------



## BRUNER247

Wait a minute. You mean there might be information on other sites that might be useful here? The diy wet season simulator? Are you crazy? According to Joe, ****** & others nothing can be had from looking at other sites! Everything that's proper is already here.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

BRUNER247 said:


> Wait a minute. You mean there might be information on other sites that might be useful here? The diy wet season simulator? Are you crazy? According to Joe, ****** & others nothing can be had from looking at other sites! Everything that's proper is already here.


Nobody ever said that. Take your sh*t out of this legit thread.


----------



## primetime3wise

yea, can we stick to the topic, i don't mind a little derail if it's productive, but let's not turn this thread into something it's not...

go duke it out in AQHU


----------



## primetime3wise

ammonia is around .25ppm. nitrite 0. thinking about getting them higher, on purpose, over the weekend.


----------



## primetime3wise

http://www.dhinfo.org/2010/09/how-to-create-a-rainy-season-in-the-aquarium/


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Stay out of AQHU with that.

Thats exactly what I was thinking prime..


----------



## primetime3wise

tossed in 4 massivore pellets...just a tiny something. if they eat it, fine, then they can poop something out, if not, then i want it to foul the water a little. doubt they will as i feed mostly silversides/krill/smelt, but, they might be ready to eat sh*t after not having anything for weeks.


----------



## primetime3wise

all 3, but esp. the one i mentioned earlier, are not nearly as dark as they were that night it rained REALLY heavily. it has me thinking simulating the rains is really important as a trigger. also, i think i may shoot for a day where it is raining outside, as atmospheric pressure def. has an effect on them.

other than that, not much except the tank is getting stinky, lol, with no water changes in a while, no filter.

i'll look more into setting up a webcam and free web cam hosting...almost thought of just using skype? but, then everyone else would have to dl it, so probably not.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

primetime3wise said:


> all 3, but esp. the one i mentioned earlier, are not nearly as dark as they were that night it rained REALLY heavily. it has me thinking simulating the rains is really important as a trigger. also, i think i may shoot for a day where it is raining outside, as atmospheric pressure def. has an effect on them.
> 
> other than that, not much except the tank is getting stinky, lol, with no water changes in a while, no filter.
> 
> i'll look more into setting up a webcam and free web cam hosting...almost thought of just using skype? but, then everyone else would have to dl it, so probably not.


www.BlogTV.com

Just watch pervs might come asking your cariba to flash...

BlogTV also has a chat which is a +


----------



## primetime3wise

yeah i figured that the most traffic a place like that gets is for pervs.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

primetime3wise said:


> yeah i figured that the most traffic a place like that gets is for pervs.


Post a link in this thread. I would watch it. You can also record on there. Your going to get pervs everywhere you go. You can kick/ban them from your show on blogTV


----------



## primetime3wise

that, or, by just looking at it, people in desperate need of attention, lol.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Whatever, its free and you can do HQ broadcasts.


----------



## primetime3wise

yea it should serve my purpose.


----------



## shaneb

Quick Derail:

I stream every day of the week and have used every site that is out there for free. Here some opinions

Blogtv sucks for broadcasting.

Use justintv for hosting and broadcast with adobe FME 3.1. Use the h264 codec from the dropdown and adjust bitrate accordingly.

Veetle allows the best quality but you have to download there plugin to watch it ...


----------



## primetime3wise

thanks i'll look into it.


----------



## primetime3wise

i've decided against the whole webcam thing...don't want to drop any $$$ on a nice one, and, i was really only thinking about doing it for myself while i was at work, anyway. plus, quite frankly i think it's a long shot that these guys are going to breed...though you never know till you try.

i'll def. keep everyone updated, and get some pics/vid if it looks promising. right now, anyway, it's about as exciting as watching paint dry, lol. the only way i'll change my mind is if i see some prebreeding behavior first.

right now, probably going to do my rainy season around the day after thanksgiving, or the weekend two weeks away.


----------



## Dolphinswin




----------



## primetime3wise

going to extend the dry season at least another week, and shoot for friday, dec. 3rd...and even then i may go another week or two.

not too much happening with them. a huge concern is that, right now, only 1 of the 3 are pretty dark...very noticeable compared to the other 2. hopefully, that will changed right after i try the rainy season, but for now it is just a concern.


----------



## locust

primetime3wise said:


> going to extend the dry season at least another week, and shoot for friday, dec. 3rd...and even then i may go another week or two.
> 
> not too much happening with them. a huge concern is that, right now, only 1 of the 3 are pretty dark...very noticeable compared to the other 2. hopefully, that will changed right after i try the rainy season, but for now it is just a concern.


Well one being dark suggests ( in a perfect scenario) that a male is in pre spawn ..as usually the males seem to be first


----------



## primetime3wise

i hope that's the case. when i bred rbp and macs they just both would go dark, both sexes, and spawn quickly after that. as you are aware this is a different beast all together.

i plan to have a nice long, drawn out, rainy season, so that hopefully, during it, i would see the greatest degree of prespawning behavior. as it suggests in the scientific article/journal i linked much earlier in this thread, being seasonal breeders, the greatest degree of gonadal maturation seems to occur with the start of the rainy/end of the dry, so i hope that is what is occurring. just maybe, cool RO water, simulating the rains, may be just what is needed to get the other two going...we'll see.


----------



## locust

Lets hope so..i found that male rbp would be ready ( showing aggression also) first, ie before a female


----------



## bigshawn

Good luck Prime I'm still hoping this works for u...............


----------



## Dolphinswin




----------



## philbert

nice


----------



## primetime3wise

i'm shooting to start the rainy season on saturday morning









the one is even more dark than he had been over the past week or two, so it is kind of a hopeful sign. they are not showing any aggression, though, and have not for some time...i didn't expect them to at all, though, with the water level so low they just sit in the same spot all day.

going to mess with the air stone, maybe totally remove it, or just have it on some of the day.


----------



## Parsa

awesome man keep us posted!


----------



## primetime3wise

i'm starting to get a little excited by this. it's a little over 5 weeks of the dry season, and i am looking, again, to start the rainy season on saturday. should be interesting!

this is the article i am drawing from:

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/adolfsson_dry%20and%20rainy%20seasons.html

for those that want the short version: i'll pretty much be doing the same thing the first 4 days of the rainy season. i already today decreased their lighting to about 11 hours, from 15 or 16. i will be adding *RO WATER* @ about 20% of the tank's total volume, and, each day decresing the heater's setting by at least 2 degrees each day. the RO water will be significantly lower than that of the tank, like 5 degrees. also, the first four days i will be feeding them a lot of live, or at least the first day or two. on the 4th day i might even turn off the heater if i feel they can tolerate it.

gonna turn off the air pump completely, tomorrow morning...might even tonight. two other things to do will be to dose the tank with boyd's vitachem on like day 2 or 3, and also i will be putting the hob filter back in...and when i do, i will run it at a lowered speed so that for at least a day or 2 i can mimic rain water splashing on the surface.


----------



## Sacrifice

Man I sure hope that all your hard work pays off.


----------



## primetime3wise

damn, the PH is lower than anticipated, already...like 6...so, when i start the rainy will be adding about 1/3 to 1/4 of the water as tap water. it will also help to not shock the fish as much, when, on day 5 onward i do really large water changes, 50%, until the hopefully spawn...


----------



## primetime3wise

my water is pretty hard as well, lake erie water. so the RO unit will help with that, as well.


----------



## JoeDizzleMPLS

Can't wait to see how this turns out...


----------



## primetime3wise

could be interesting. i'm not feeling terribly confident, but on the positive side i hope that one being darker then the other two is a start. i will be running the rainy season for quite long, so i won't be terribly disappointed if things don't start right away.


----------



## primetime3wise

DAY 1 OF THE RAINY SEASON:

1)added about 15g of water to the tank: about 2/3 RO water and 1/3 tap water. my tap water is fairly hard. tank did have an acidic PH already. RO water was (obviously) acidic and soft.

2)lowered heater from 83 to *80: caused the tank to go from 85 to 82 (MIGHT go another degree lower on heater). RO/tap water was 80-81, (still quite warm) when added. edit: *actually did go lower, to 80 on heater. 3 degrees lower today, will only go 2 degrees each, for days 2-4.

3)tank now 1/2 full.

4)replaced AC70 hob

5)tossed in 20 small comet goldfish

kind of got a later start on this, like 2pm i finished up. i want to def. get it going earlier tomorrow. from the changes the darkest one lightened up considerably...i am hoping he/she goes back to being considerably dark. i'm not expecting much today, as i would expect the changes to stress them out more, today, then any other day. also, the tank is half full, so with the floating plants they still don't have much room to roam about. surprisingly, with dim lighting, the plants joe sent me are doing fine.

let me know if this post makes sense, i had to write everything down as i was doing it, just so i could remember. other than that i will post tomorrow. i'll probably get a pic up tomorrow after i am done working on the tank.


----------



## primetime3wise

DAY 2 of RAINY SEASON:

pretty much did the same thing as DAY 1...except the water i added to the tank was 5 degrees lower than what the tank's temp was initially. tank is now down to 78 degrees and holding.

it's not looking terribly good right now, actually a little discouraging. all 3 fish are lighter in color, esp. the one i noted that was real dark. the same thing happened yesterday and he was darker later in the day, but as of right now he is light in appearance. it does seem to take several hours to go back to what coloration they had before i added water to the tank, probably stressed related, but not in the way i was hoping for.

will keep what i have been doing, for 3 more days, and eventually let the tank's temp hold in low 70's. then, just keep changing 1/2 the tank's water with water of similar temp.


----------



## primetime3wise

i've just been slowly adding cool water and turning down the heater. the temp this morning was around 75, and, once i reach 74, going to lower it slowly, a degree or two at a time, to 70.

doesn't seem promising at all right now, but somehow i think i may have been lowering the temp too quickly, and not enough time for them to adjust. they are all light in color now, except a different one, this time, is a little darker than the other two.

the 3 have picked out their territories in the tank now, nothing unusual for adult cariba.

i'll update as things progress...


----------



## Inflade

keep with it. my feeling is lowering the temp one degree at a time with the heater is going to be the trigger.

sometimes fish spawn when you least expect it.


----------



## Sacrifice

When the temps start dropping for me I like to put on some Barry White "Let's get it on", usually helps me get some







so maybe try playing a little for them and see what happens.


----------



## primetime3wise

don't i wish it was that easy









tank temp is steady @ 72. i'm going to leave it there until at least sunday and then do a large water change, 50%, then knock it down to 70. if no respones after that i might just drop it to around room temp, though no lower than like 68. unfortuntaley, with my work schedule, doing daily 50% water changes just isn't going to happen


----------



## Sanjo Eel

I just want to mention this because I was thinking about it the other day.
What depth do they spawn at? Many things change according to depth, such as temp, light, and pressure. I have never seen depth or pressure mentioned in any breeding threads.
Air pressure yes, but not water pressure.


----------



## BRUNER247

Most probably spawn in shallows that open up from the rainy season(flooded plains & forest) which are IMO warmer waters(being shallow)that get cooled by rains. Which why I think a shelf on one side of tank that is not as shallow. A deep pool with shallow sides, that when the drought is going they're forced to the deep part in the middle, rainy season starts it opens the rest of the pool & gives them access to the shallows.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

I think it would be smart to try it in a tub.... In one of franks experiments he was getting breeding behaviour from terns and sanchezi in a tub...


----------



## Sacrifice

Johnny_Zanni said:


> I think it would be smart to try it in a tub.... In one of franks experiments he was getting breeding behaviour from terns and sanchezi in a tub...


Yes I've seen videos of breeding bahavior in tubs as well.......oh wait those were humans sorry,









Any updates primetime? How's it going seeing any difference in coloration?


----------



## primetime3wise

nothing good to report...they aren't nearly as dark as they were, esp. the one i mentioned, his coloration is much lighter. i think i may have been on the right track during the dry season, but now nothing at all that would indicate a desire to breed.

i'm thinking about even reducing the tank's temp to room temperature (no heater). do you guys feel that is even safe? i'm talking around 66-68 degrees.


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

primetime3wise said:


> nothing good to report...they aren't nearly as dark as they were, esp. the one i mentioned, his coloration is much lighter. i think i may have been on the right track during the dry season, but now nothing at all that would indicate a desire to breed.
> 
> i'm thinking about even reducing the tank's temp to room temperature (no heater). do you guys feel that is even safe? i'm talking around 66-68 degrees.


 Id probably just lower the heater to low 70's but keep it in there just to keep the temperature farily stable down there as being winter it could get colder one day to the next.


----------



## Parsa

ive lost a p in room temp, so i wouldnt try it.


----------



## BRUNER247

Wouldn't it matter what each room is kept at & even if its by a door or window.& even the size of tank. I don't use a single heater in 20+ tanks.


----------



## Parsa

i dont know... i'm just saying ive lost one before.


----------



## memen

Hey Primetimewise, I follow your topic with enthusiasm. (Sorry for my poor english)...

FOr cariba, I can't help you but i think you shoud retry a dry season to restimulate them.

need your help for the breeding of P.nattereri, it's a little HS so sorry...

I'm trying to breed P.nattereri with a dry saison for 3 weekds and they are all black. They are 7 one year old natt. The smallest starts to crunch the gravel and chase the larges one from his spot but it stop. I stop the filters and up the temperature to 30 /31 C°. But now... The stay black and nothing happen more...!

What is the problem : Are they too young ? Shoud I start a rainy season now ? Shoud I keep the tank in a dry season for more time ?

Or let them do their live and retry when they will be older ?

Thanks for your advice.

Best regards,

Memen.


----------



## primetime3wise

sounds like they might not even be sexually mature, tough to say. f they were just a little older you could say they are with more confidence.

What size tank is this?

With natts/rbp and even macs, i never bother simulating the seasons as it's just not necessary. for the most part they will breed when they are ready, assuming they like the conditions of the tank...enough space and of course good water quality. you can do things to try and get them going... sooner than later. i think the best is just to keep the water in the 84 +/- for an extended period of time and see if that gets them going. if not, just do a cool water change of about 25% of the total volume of the tank, but with much cooler water and you want the tank's temp to drop 6-8 degrees (Farenheit!).

i'd just raise the temp and leave it there until you can say with more confidence that they are sexually mature enough. then in month or two you could try what i described, if the bump in temp is not enough.

they'll breed, you just need to be patient as they are on their own schedule and not yours.



BRUNER247 said:


> ive lost a p in room temp, so i wouldnt try it.


yeah i was thinking that might be too low, and even if they tolerate it, i hvae a hard time thinking they would want to breed in such cool water.


----------



## BRUNER247

I'd start taking the temp the other way. Here's why. Say dry season is about to end, spring rains are on the way. Right now(end of dry)waters are probably the hottest they get(hence drying up).rains come flooding forests & lowlands,this is cold, dropping the temp of the water everywhere,piranha move to the flooded forests, & plains to spawn.the temp of the flood water will be the lowest it gets but most likely starts raising again within days in the shallows. I think raise the temp & add as much life as possible from baby brine, to a couple different, bunches of tetras,big fry or tiny babies of any fish,plants floating & rooted, tons of oxygen & don't let them see you. Maybe even get jungle CD to play lol. I believe you said they're on concrete so they shouldn't be able to feel you walking around.


----------



## primetime3wise

that's not a bad idea and i may just do that in another day or two. plus, well, they were significantly darker with the raised temp.


----------



## BRUNER247

Don't give up!I'd keep right on em for least 2-3 weeks after you start raising temp.as far as what's known them might start spawning when flood waters start to raise(temp) again & food supply for fry is at its highest.like mosquito larvae, & other fish(early spawners) cariba definitely grow fast enough to catch up & pass fish(prey food)babies that were born a week or two earlier. The German documentary on piranha shows a cariba or piraya spawning(so blk I can't ID which for sure)in vegetation.so lots of new growing vegetation could play a role in it also. GL prime!


----------



## primetime3wise

we'll see what happens. if i do the seasons again i am def. going to look for at least 1 or 2 more if i can find any adults around me. ideally, a larger tank would help, but there's no way i want one any time soon.

it's hard with work to keep up on the water changes that i have seen recommended for them to spawn...daily 50% water changes are recommended. i have heard of s. maculatus spawning in this way. gonna try and really keep on that the next few days as i have some extra time off work.


----------



## BRUNER247

If rainy season is Nov-Dec to April-May then cariba might spawn late. Takes roughly 2 months to reach roughly 1" in a tank.& in wild it could go either way,growing a little faster or a little slower. If you figure when baby cariba are available here at 1" or so it puts the spawning a good month after the rains start if not longer. Which would give them time your get back in good condition after the dry season & give other fish time to spawn & provide a unlimited food supply for their fry to grow the fastest. I believe they wait for the flood waters to raise in temp & the mosquitoes & other micro-organisms to really get going.


----------



## primetime3wise

problem is there could be so many variables that are key to get them going, and trying to recreate every one may just be extremely difficult...especially when some of them are theoretical...they have been bred so very scarcely it's hard to say, and would need to be attempted much more than it has.


----------



## primetime3wise

gonna experiment with keeping a raised temp, large, frequent water changes, and breeding spots, over the next few weeks. from what i remember, i had good success with creating spawning sites for s. maculatus...it may really help them to feel more secure in the environment, and act as something to get them going. what worked for me was just creating areas like 12"x12" or 18", surrounded heavily with decor, plants, and rock. in this way, territorial behavior might actually be desireable.

i have heard of other species responding to the frequent water changes...keep the temp in the mid 80's, then maybe do a 33-50% water change every other day, maybe even more, with much cooler water, then simply let the temp come back up.


----------



## BRUNER247

I think you were closer with warmer temps(being blk).the female could take a extra week or so to produce the eggs. I'm gonna be trying cariba here someday. Goodluck prime! hope they blkn back up & do the deed for ya.


----------



## BRUNER247

Sup prime? Have you started raising temp yet, any changes in coloration or behavior?


----------



## primetime3wise

nothing terribly promising. i did a large water change on saturday, 50% and let the temp go to about 85. they are slightly darker, but nothing near what i would see with rbp ready to spawn. they are also more territorial with some fake plants i put in, but none of them looks like they are nest building.

going to stay with the increased temp, indefinately, and see what happens.


----------



## BRUNER247

I was wondering where you were with temp. Damn fish anyhow. Lol. Hopefully they're adjusting to new higher temp & something will come of it. Least the coloration is a little better. They could still surprise ya I definitely wouldn't give up. Best of luck to ya primetime!


----------



## primetime3wise

nothing is really going on with them, so, all i will say is, that, i will post if something drastic changes, but i really doubt it. i did do 2 large water changes, around 25%, with cool water, then let the temp go back up, but nothing.


----------



## BRUNER247

Damn that suks!I'd waterchange very day, maybe even a couple times a day a couple days in a row. How's the cariba looking now compared to end of dry season?& how did they look at end of dry season?


----------



## primetime3wise

they are not really dark at all, esp. the one that was quite dark during the dry season.

more frequent water changes is an idea, we'll see, i could try it a few days in a row and see if anything changes.

**IF i was to try this again, i think i would want a massive tank, 125g+, with at least 3 more adults. just having 3 adults for this wasn't the best idea, and i bet they feel less secure in a 75g tank, comparatively.

you are going to try this yourself, bruner? i saw you are looking for some cariba. g/l if so, someone needs to find a way, not just for cariba, but many other p species, as i don't think many will be imported in, say, 5 or 10 years...cariba already are becoming scarce.


----------



## BRUNER247

Yeah I'm most definitely gonna be trying here some day. I'm gonna get least dozen babies when they show up again.


----------



## primetime3wise

i have a pair!!!

but......

they are my silver dollars


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

Thats a start at least lol. How common is breeding silver dollars?


----------



## primetime3wise

fairly common...not as much as, say, convicts or guppies, but i think is does happen pretty frequently.

if they lay eggs in my 125g, now, the eggs won't last long at all...so i may just move the pair to a 30g or 40g and let them go at it. i can leave the eggs in the tank, and the parents won't eat them...then i think i will just use them for feeders for my oscar, datnoids, clown knife and others.

it's kinda like watching rbp mate, without all the violence. the pair just flutters together all throughout the tank. not sure if they have a spot in mind, as my 125g is overcrowded to begin with.


----------

