# Leucistic Beuty



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

one example of how crappy the usa aquarium hobby is, i want fish like these


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

Poseidon X said:


> one example of how crappy the usa aquarium hobby is, i want fish like these












why dosnt anyone in the US try to breed beatiful fish and stuff like china and other coutrys are

man that thing is beatiful







is it a poly species


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Damn the finnage is flawless....


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

because people in the usa would rather spend alot of money on a bunch of crap that will sit in a garage then pump it into their hobbies. If anyone was wondering the fish was for sale for $888, which i dont find expensive at all considering its leucistic. Also, i was told by many lfs owners that all they care about is buying cheap fish that will come and go fast... hobby here is based on paying way to much for stupid fish like neon tetras.


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

Here is one for you Titancus pleco.. Just try to get one of these.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

Poseidon X said:


> Here is one for you Titancus pleco.. Just try to get one of these.


 what the helk is that thing









are they super rare of something


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

Poseidon X said:


> one example of how crappy the usa aquarium hobby is, i want fish like these


to me this looks like a hybrid fish between a senegal bichir & an axlotl









do you know the origin of it?


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

i dont want to rehash the insipid "hybrid" debate, but i cant stomach all of this bullshit "pro-asian" "anti-U.S." crap.

a lot of people, including myself, feel that along with some very beautiful and interesting color morphs, hybrids, etc. that many of the asian breeders are incredibly irresponsible.....a quick trip through the goldfish section of any LFS will alleviate any doubt.



> hobby here is based on paying way to much for stupid fish like neon tetras.


and paying $800 for a fish is not?



> because people in the usa would rather spend alot of money on a bunch of crap that will sit in a garage then pump it into their hobbies


what a ridiculous statement. i dont own a fish over $20 and i like my tanks just as much as the next person.....and i dont have anything piled into my garage, what they hell is that supposed to mean?

and what is the beef with people who keep neon tetras? who gives a sh*t what someone else wants to keep? maybe they dont like your nicely-colored trimac (also known as FH's by many)



> considering its leucistic.


big deal, will it behave any different?

what a bunch of tripe.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

ok this is not a hybrid debate thread, if it becomes one I will close it as that is not the topic of the thread, if you want to debate this try posting in the science forum


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

That's a nice leucistic morph. As a fish hobbyist, I can appreciate rareity, but I find it wrong to bash the American hobby. Not all of us are like you described...and it's not about being Asian. I can say some pretty bad things about how many Asians keep their fish in small tanks and sub-par conditions, but that would be stereotyping now wouldn't it? Please, don't stereotype the American fishkeeper. There is a large market here for big ticket fish, but you don't see it as much because those people don't brag about it.


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

this isnt a hybrid fish.. it was a pure leucsitic endlichiri from japan and 888 dollars for a leucistic fish is not expensive at all.. people pay 10s of thousands of dollars for selectively bred snakes like that.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

well IMO - it is overpriced


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

to bad if you had the money for it.. you still wouldnt be able to get it because at that price it would grow wings and fly out of the store.

Ill tell you what disgusts me, is the hypocritical nature of purists who do think there is some difference between owning a fish like this leucistic endo and owning other pets. How many breeds of dogs are there? Dogs are some of the most mutated animals i have ever seen, yet they are mans best freind i guess. So its not ok to build a fish with 10x better color and muscularity, but its ok to breed mini dogs with deformed snouts and legs so short they can hardly move?

Wild animals belong in nature, they shouldnt be pulled out of their homes for your own enjoyment if there are other means to compensate them.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

> one example of how crappy the usa aquarium hobby is, i want fish like these


You do this a lot Pose, do you really think it's productive?

I agree with Puma and Dracofish, don't paint with such a broad brush.

The sad thing about that comment is that it detracts from your post. That is a really cool looking fish!


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

> Wild animals belong in nature, they shouldnt be pulled out of their homes for your own enjoyment if there are other means to compensate them.


Where do you think the original stock for the selective breeding comes from?



> So its not ok to build a fish with 10x better color and muscularity, but its ok to breed mini dogs with deformed snouts and legs so short they can hardly move?


Not big on these kinds of dogs either (some can't even breathe right). You're painting with that broad brush again.


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

im not refereing to our commitment as usa aquarist, but more or less the masses are just not into large fancy fish which is the result of the way fish stores are run with a few notable exceptions.
The other part is just the general lack of intrest into breeding strains... there really should be no reason that "snow" silver arowana should not be readily available for purchase.. they would even rival some asian strains, but no one invests their time in this i guess.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I can't lie and say I haven't been sad or disgusted with so many fish stores out for profit (often at the expense of the animals).

But culling thousands of animals for one mutant is at the expense of the animals as well. Not to mention some of the horrors allowed to survive!

I don't see why keeping and breeding wild species is so wrong. Look at the animals Polypterus has, some are extinct in the wild. I have Herichthys minckleyi which is now endangered. The mincks change colors when breeding (female white, male dark) which I'm afraid no leucistic can ever do.

It's still a matter of choice with some grey areas regarding ethics of genetics (for mutant strains) or wild collection (for natives). I honestly don't have a thing against leucistic strains, I would keep that fish in a second (if it was given to me...).
Why does it have to be either/or???


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> Ill tell you what disgusts me, is the hypocritical nature of purists who do think there is some difference between owning a fish like this leucistic endo and owning other pets. How many breeds of dogs are there? Dogs are some of the most mutated animals i have ever seen, yet they are mans best freind i guess. So its not ok to build a fish with 10x better color and muscularity, but its ok to breed mini dogs with deformed snouts and legs so short they can hardly move?
> 
> Wild animals belong in nature, they shouldnt be pulled out of their homes for your own enjoyment if there are other means to compensate them.


like i said in my post, i am not addressing the stupid hybrid debate.....

i am addressing your comments about the american hobby and your trashing of other people's fish....."cheap" fish as you coined.



> it was a pure leucsitic endlichiri from japan and 888 dollars for a leucistic fish is not expensive at all.. people pay 10s of thousands of dollars for selectively bred snakes like that.


the word "expensive" is a relative term...much like hot or cold.

what is cold to someone from florida compared to someone from michigan or siberia? .....all i can tell you is that i am not alone when i say that i would never spend anywhere near that much for a fish.

i have never once looked at my plain-jane oscar tank and thought- "you know, my fish tank could really use some $800 asian fish, these cheap fish really suck".



> but more or less the masses are just not into large fancy fish which is the result of the way fish stores are run with a few notable exceptions.


you are absolutely right, many of them are not. your suggestion that this is a BAD thing is strange........

you can keep whatever the hell fish you like, but keep your blue-collar fish bashing to yourself.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

nice looking fish..... Reading the comments I am made to feel sorry and bad for myself and my hobby...that sux.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Not sure why you feel bad, a little introspection is healthy!



> what is cold to someone from florida compared to someone from michigan


Having lived in both states I definitely get the comparison!!! I think sometimes people with a lot of money don't feel right spending $4.50 on a fish, even if it is the coolest fish in their opinion.

For the third time I'll be honest, that leucistic bichir is sweet. Does it make my African peacocks or electric blue cichlids not sweet? No way dude. Check the pic...

This is a true species (Sciaenochromis fryeri). If it were never seen before and came up as a hybrid I think someone may shell out $888 for it. Fact is I've been breeding them for almost 10 years and have sold hundreds if not thousands back to the hobby.

It's psychology, supply and demand. Step outside of it and determine what you really want.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

man that is a really nice fish

but is it only special cause it is albino


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

acestro said:


> Not sure why you feel bad, a little introspection is healthy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 you ship that blue fish man

now lu wants now


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Oh, and I just sold a bunch for $2.50 a piece. I could continue to argue and ask: "How many of these "specialty" fish have that kind of blue?"

That would be pointless. If you like shiny and blue, great. If you like bichirs, great. If you like leucistics, great.

Just know where they come from, and respect the fact that we don't all want the same kind of fish. How dull would that be?

Fish are not status symbols (wealthier person=owner of more expensive fish) they are a matter of personal opinion and interest and aesthetics.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

acestro said:


> Oh, and I just sold a bunch for $2.50 a piece


 you sell these for $2.50 man

my lfs would be selling these for hundereds of dollars

i would want one but i am worried at how big they get and shipping and stuff you know


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

that electric blue is sweet. colors are really outstanding, as far as pricing goes though when you consider what goe s into creating exotic strains of very large fish its a little different because they need alot more room to grow... plus they eat ALOT, so think of all the fish that would have to be born to come out with a lucistic.

and that is not an albino... albino is not considered a complete rarity as compared to leucistic.. thats why. If the fish were just albino it wouldnt be worht that money... maybe 150 at that size. Understanding how rarely that occurs dictates the price, and to someone in japan who was very intrested in collecting these fish.. this is one is a once in a lifetime find maybe. If someone were to have a leucistic piranha.. it would definately be worth alot more then $888. I couldnt even put a price tag on that.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

what is the difference between albino and lewistic


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

sweet lu said:


> what is the difference between albino and lewistic


 Albinos lack skin pigmentation, that's why they appear pink with red eyes...you can see the color of the blood vessels...

Leucistic is a genetic morph creating a snow white body with black eyes...big difference from albino.

One thing I find very funny is that if the fish isn't expensive, it can't be cool or beautiful. Money doesn't neccessarily denote beauty. I think that's where some people that have a lot of money to throw around are lacking.

Also, Poseidon mentioned "creating" strains of fish. Were you not the one bashing certain breeds of dogs? Wow, hypocrisy is such a great thing. If you don't like those "disgusting" breeds of dogs, then why do you like "man made" finned monstrocities? Oh, and creating a fish and calling it rare is SO stupid. Keeping a fish that is a rareity in the wild is a completely different thing and should be considered an honor. Leucistic morphs do occur in the wild, therefore, they aren't "created," IMO. They can be selectively bred with other leucistics or carriers to gain a higher ratio of probability on the genetic level, but that's a far cry from creating a fish.


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## armac (Nov 28, 2002)

everyone has posted some beautiful fish, what gets old is hearing Pose X, on several occasion putting down the American hobby, here is a suggestion Pose X find an Asian board where you will be happier. Cintinually beating up on the American hobbyist is short-sighted and poorly thought out strategy, if you want anyone to listen to you, get off your high horse or move to Asia :laugh:


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

armac said:


> everyone has posted some beautiful fish, what gets old is hearing Pose X, on several occasion putting down the American hobby, here is a suggestion Pose X find an Asian board where you will be happier. Cintinually beating up on the American hobbyist is short-sighted and poorly thought out strategy, if you want anyone to listen to you, get off your high horse or move to Asia :laugh:


 you shouldnt be bashing americans on a american owned web site where a lot of the members live in america and also shouldnt be bashing weird breed dogs in the country that owns the most weird breed dogs :laugh: just a thought :laugh:

now do you ahve any other fishy that are super cool like the ones above?

oh thats for the info dracofish


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I fear PoseX is used to simple minded hybrid bashing.
I'm proud to say this board is well beyond that. While many
here don't really like them, we are open minded and more 
'cerebral' about this. We also don't go for this Asian superiority 
(or inferiority) bullshit.

Dracofish made a good point of natural 
occurances of leucistics. Leucistic alligators were NOT bred for this
trait, they were found having the trait.

The funny thing about my electric blue pic is that I have
ngara flametail peacock cichlids that look even better!

The sad thing is *even these *stunning fish aren't left alone!
There are albino peacocks, hybrid strains (mixed peacocks....*shudder*),
even hormone treated fishes (to bring out more color).

I think the issue is_ where do you draw the line for ethics in the hobby?_
It seems fuzzy *EXCEPT *if you only support natural species.... 
hmmmm..... good food for thought?


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## Jags (Aug 4, 2003)

Draco made an awesome point!









o and for spending more money on a fish makes it more beautiful, thats not true at all.Someone can spend $3 on a fish and think its awesome.I spent $35 on an argentea and it has the most crazyest irredecents on its fins that i have ever seen on a fish!Dont bash other people for not liking to spend hundereds even thousands of dollars on fish just because they are "rare" and man made.Everyone likes different fish.Just because the USA doesnt carry these "rare" or "man made" fish, dont bash on us.We have plenty of things that Asia or any other place over doesnt have......(that can be fish related or non fish related)


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

acestro said:


> I fear PoseX is used to simple minded hybrid bashing.
> I'm proud to say this board is well beyond that. While many
> here don't really like them, we are open minded and more
> 'cerebral' about this. We also don't go for this Asian superiority
> ...


 you when when i got inot piranha i wanted to keep only "natural" fish not some
crazy hybrid. but as time went on i noticed fish like fh and other hybrids were
actually cool. now some people may think that a $1 neon tetra isnt pretty or 
anything but my momabsolutly loves them. she hates all other fish but neo tetras. 
so what i think is that it dosnt matter if the fish is a hybrid or a natural fish but all 
fish are fish. even those "hybrid" fish are fish and i dont think that created is a
good word for them but more they were bred to become what they are. so a 
hybrid really isnt a new fish. it is just cross breeding between fish. so i think that in
reality all fish are fish and there is no "man made" or "created" fish but more just
a cross breeding t make them what they are. i just think that asia and china do it 
more cause that is just them. here is america i think a lot of people just like fihs 
the way they are. and that we shouldnt change them at all.

sorry if it is hard to read


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## Birdman (Mar 19, 2003)

Whats with the attitudes on this board all of a sudden?
Like the other day when i post a thread about tetras and people jump down my throat. Whats up with that?People really need to chill out.









And its a very beautiful fish


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## Birdman (Mar 19, 2003)

armac said:


> here is a suggestion Pose X find an Asian board where you will be happier. Cintinually beating up on the American hobbyist is short-sighted and poorly thought out strategy, if you want anyone to listen to you, get off your high horse or move to Asia :laugh:


 heres what i'm talking about, was that really necesary?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Birdman, did you notice the tone at the beginning of the thread? And the fact that I noted that this thread could have been better because that was such a stunning fish? I'm against these arguments too. However, lately the savagery of feeding inappropriate prey for show to a snakehead, and the continuous innuendos that the U.S. is crap when it comes to fish are too much to let fly.

Sorry I missed the tetra thread (did I?). I'll try and track it down!


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Wow. I am completely blown away by where this thread has gone since I first looked at this beautiful fish that started the thread.

I have a few things to say, or type.....

First, this hobby survives by people dedicated to it. Does that mean it is perfect, hell no. But are peaople like the 10 year old kid that saves all his allowance to be able to buy a new tetra any less important than the connesuir who wishes to spend exorbitant amounts on a rare color morph, or a special breed, again, HELL NO.

Second the hybrid point: (


> Ill tell you what disgusts me, is the hypocritical nature of purists who do think there is some difference between owning a fish like this leucistic endo and owning other pets. How many breeds of dogs are there? Dogs are some of the most mutated animals i have ever seen, yet they are mans best freind i guess. So its not ok to build a fish with 10x better color and muscularity, but its ok to breed mini dogs with deformed snouts and legs so short they can hardly move?)


 Is absolutely moot when using dogs as a subject of reference, as dogs are all the same damn species, so they are not hybrids, they are breeds, *HUGE* difference. No matter my feelings on the subject people who wish to breed any taxa for specific traits will spend much time playing with existing gene pools and with closely related gene pools to try to "perfect" their ideals. Is it right or wrong, I am not in a position to answer that. I am against hybridizing personally, as I keep many species that are in jepoardy and some that no longer exist in the wild, the few pure genetic lines out there are far too few now, and when someone unscrupulously hybridizes into those lines, they risk an entire population.

Hey I know, opinions are like assholes, and I voice mine here for one reason, to prove it can be done reasonably and in a non-combative manner. I live in a country that affords me so many rights that many are taken for granted, and I should be ashamed of that fact, but one of those precious rights is the one to my opinion and the freedom to express it, as do all of you. So express it, but please try to do so in a constructive manner. We are all a part of a site that offers everyone the ability to learn and view opinions and viewpoints that we may not have seen or thought of, and they may be every bit as valid as our own.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

somebody post another pic of a cool fish, this is getting weird

crockeeper makes an excilent point as you cannot compare dogs as hybrids at all

and also i think tht maybe a new thread should start as it seems and i have helped out but this thread is way off topic and perhaps this should be moved to the non-piranha scientific discussion


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

CrocKeeper said:


> First, this hobby survives by people dedicated to it. Does that mean it is perfect, hell no. But are peaople like the 10 year old kid that saves all his allowance to be able to buy a new tetra any less important than the connesuir who wishes to spend exorbitant amounts on a rare color morph, or a special breed, again, HELL NO.


 Well-said









Unfortunately, some people seem to be involved in this hobby not because of dedication, but because out of pure snobism: if it's not worth several 100's of bucks, it's crap, ready to be processed as Fish 'n' Chips. Looking down on anything that is cheap or common, bashing people that are not willing to spend absurd sums of money for their hobby (yes, last time I checked, most of us are hobbyists plain and simple, not filthy rich collectors, scientists or whoever with acces to expensive/exotic/rare fish...)

The most I have spend on a single fish was 50 euro's (60 bucks), and I questioned my sanity for quite some time for that... A few years back I would have laughed away the thought of spending such an amount of money on a damn fish.
Some may laugh at 60 bucks, I don't - would I swap that fish for a funky-ass 1000 dollar collectors item? No! Would I change any of my 3 dollar redbellies for such a fish? Hell no!

Fish keeping is all about *personal* enjoyment (and each and every one is keeping fish for personal reasons): it's not about having a stuck-up attitude by looking down on others that keep "inferior" (whatever that means) fish or "damage" the hobby because they buy dirt-cheap, common fish...

I'm not intending to insult anyone with this, but some really need to check their attitude and thoughhts about their fellow hobbyists, imo...


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

that being said, i think it is about time for a guinness.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Puma said:


> that being said, i think it is about time for a guinness.


 I agree! 
Cheers mate


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> Puma said:
> 
> 
> > that being said, i think it is about time for a guinness.
> ...


 ill drink to that


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

> as writing this article on why luohan ERA is decreasing.
> 
> as many ppl now kept on looking down onto luohans as most reasons is that durning the old days,many ppl buy the luohans at high price but the fish turns out no big kok on the head,thus making everyone who had purchase the fish greatly disappointed,greatly is due to the seller's which anyhow sell at the peak period of luohans plus no quality control. no matter is it nice or not,as long it is luohan the seller willl just sell it at prices which they wanna earn,as many ppl at that point of time did not know that even the same parentage of the fish with big kok tau does not meant that the fries will all turn out to have big heads in future,genes from the parents will jump in the process of breeding,some sellers even breed the luohans at imature stages which the male or female did not reach the adult hood,they just breed the fish and hoping to sell it off at any price as long they earn money.as long its luohan they will sell it at any size and at any prices,thus shops are opening like the bubble tea shops frenzy like the peak periods,thats the way of life in singapore,many ppl just turn out and sell luohans,they dun even know much abt luohans,when given questions they will just bullshit around,pulling a fast one on the customers and earning fast cash.
> as to now,many shops had closed down as the luohan peak ERA had gone down,some will change their selling point into other kinds of fishes,as in the current situation,most of the ppl had given up hope on luohans as they do not want to spent big money on them,thinking that the ERA had gone down and its not worth to pay so much for a luohan,thus making the luohan's sale industry even more down,more ever now the heart of ppl is trying to get a cheap and somemore must have waterhead or at least a kok shape in the head area,i think most bros here are also thinking the same.
> ...


 I couldnt say it better myself, the fact that people are cheap(in respect to completely not understanding why someone would pay so much) and dont give into consideration how much time and value went into crafting a particular fish.... the thousands of hours, collecting and rearing the parents, then breeding... then in many strains cases, only 1! fish out of the entire spawn will be sold! Compared to here where people are content with selling all 500 of their trimachorn rubish for $5 x500 and earning a quick $2500... now you think these people are insane for asking $2500? for a fish when they had to grow at least 150 fry out for 3 months feed every day and do waterchanges in order to get one sellable fish? People need to stop flooding the market with garbage, drive up the price and deliver higher quality and we will see more show quality cichlids around.

This doesnt just go for hybrid, its for anything pure too.. im sure everyone loves the barred midas breeder .. but maybe 2% of the fry will turn out anything like the awesome breeder parents.

Now who i feel bad for is piranha hobbyist, who spent lots of money collecting fish like piraya, brandtii, geryi, terns, altuvei.. truely rare creatures before that were worth alot. Now they are not worth anything because of sellers flooding the market. not even the rare altuvei could catch a respectable price. People are stuck with having to give their fish away that they spent hundreds of dollars on because people dont want to pay the price. Yet some sellers continue to demand the high price, higher then market.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

There's nothing wrong with people wanting to spend money on fish. sh*t, I'm a Stingray nut, I know about spending money. BUT, our argument was that you implied that you aren't a real fishkeeper, or "cool," unless you want to spend lots of money. I know lots of people that are perfectly happy with their $20 and under fish and I respect them for it. They are just as much true fishkeepers as anyone else.

As for the fact that FH's are losing value...it's a thing called market flooding. People get rather tired of seeing too much of one thing. They were "cool" when they were rare, now that they aren't people are losing interest. The FH people got greedy with their money and pushed their product too hard. Heh, I think it's funny actually.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Poseidon X said:


> and dont give into consideration how much time and value went into *crafting* a particular fish....


I think many people have a problem with exactly that - isn't what nature produces beautiful enough, or sufficient.

This is my personal standpoint, but I do think many people with me are willing to toss out quite some cash for a fish that is rare in the hobby (and those are just as much true hobbyists as any hybrid collector), but don't want anything to do with fish that aren't natural - not because of ethics, but simply because they think that what nature has to offer is more than anyone could ever fully appreciate - no need to act like the mad scientist, creating new species when we just start to fathom what is out there in the wild...

Because a certain fish is becoming more and more commonly available doesn't make a fish less desirable or beautiful - I bet 99% of all fish keepers don't make a selection of fish based on genetics or rarity, but simply because they like what they see. They don't give a f**k about pedigree, or the thousands of hours that went into manufacturing a fish with specific colors or features.
And they for sure don't look down on those that think nature isn't enough to provide the necessary means for a cool hobby...


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

> Now who i feel bad for is piranha hobbyist, who spent lots of money collecting fish like piraya, brandtii, geryi, terns, altuvei.. truely rare creatures before that were worth alot. Now they are not worth anything because of sellers flooding the market. not even the rare altuvei could catch a respectable price. People are stuck with having to give their fish away that they spent hundreds of dollars on because people dont want to pay the price. Yet some sellers continue to demand the high price, higher then market.


Um.... we're not talking about the stock market, we're talking about a hobby.

My cudas aren't expensive (neither, really, are my cichlids). If their price went up would I sell and invest in .... bah, I'm done.









:beer:

Here's your pic for enlightenment (a fish I've had for a few years but still dig....I think you can buy one for under $10....)


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2004)

Judazzz said:


> Fish keeping is all about *personal* enjoyment (and each and every one is keeping fish for personal reasons): it's not about having a stuck-up attitude by looking down on others that keep "inferior" (whatever that means) fish or "damage" the hobby because they buy dirt-cheap, common fish...


 That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

There are different kinds of fishkeepers who have very different tastes in fish and levels of commitment.

I personally am intrigued by wild-type fish. I appreciate the millions of years of natural selection that goes into their coloring and finnage.

Some people are into selectively bred color varieties, cross-breeding and albinism, but that just doesn't interest me. I feel the same way about snakes.


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## armac (Nov 28, 2002)

> Whats with the attitudes on this board all of a sudden?
> Like the other day when i post a thread about tetras and people jump down my throat. Whats up with that?People really need to chill out.


Birdman Posted: Feb 3 2004, 07:46 PM


> And its a very beautiful fish


all of a sudden, you just joined this board, how do you know about attitudes?


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

Hes been here along time actually


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## armac (Nov 28, 2002)

october 2003? a long time?


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## armac (Nov 28, 2002)

look let's just leave it at this, I keep my fish, you keep yours, you may think that because your fish are more expensive they are better, that's fine, I know a lot of people in S. FLa, when you get down there with your attitude toward everything, working in produce wholesale, around Belle Glade you are not going to go over real big, wrong attitude. just some advice, take it or leave it :laugh: btw I lived in that area for 25 years, your gonna be a big hit


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I think what it all comes down to is that people keep fish for different reasons...some for a hobby, some for a statice symbol, some to help relax after a long day, and others to make money. With all these different goals, there will never be a agreement on everything, but want matters is respecting others and the reason they keep the fish they do....is that too hard to understand?


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## armac (Nov 28, 2002)

tell everybody asian produce is better


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

says march actually..

I think their is a failure to remember that FH is a competition fish. You collect the highest grade specimens so that you can have competition... just like in asia, instead of dog shows their is fish shows where people bring out their discus, arrowana, betta and flowerhorn to see what creations people were able to breed or purchase.


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## armac (Nov 28, 2002)

ok it is all a competition with you, not with most of us, I am sorry I misunderstood, I am not here to compete with you. see ya :nod:


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## Birdman (Mar 19, 2003)

armac said:


> > Whats with the attitudes on this board all of a sudden?
> > Like the other day when i post a thread about tetras and people jump down my throat. Whats up with that?People really need to chill out.
> 
> 
> ...


 hey i joined here after i got bored with pfish, so i have been around for some time :rock:


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## armac (Nov 28, 2002)

> hey i joined here after i got bored with pfish, so i have been around for some time


ok and.........?


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

I love my new $10 senegal bichir.. the fish is great..i dont care at all that it didnt cost much at all as its fun to watch.. but i also like extremely colorful red fish... i would like to see one other male freshwater fish that has as many square inch of red on it as my poto. (The king of aquarium fish doesnt count). Obviously if i can find a fish like this for cheap, i must have paid to much. so please direct me to this fish.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

> ok and.........?


...so _obviously_, since he's not new here at all, he knows a thing or two about 'attitudes'-- or at least he does by your reasoning. You sited his lack of time on this board as the reason for why he shouldn't know anything about attitudes.

Yes, it was a pretty stupid pointless peripheral argument you made, I agree.


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## armac (Nov 28, 2002)

> Yes, it was a pretty stupid pointless peripheral argument you made, I agree.


thank you for your input :rock:


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## DiXoN (Jan 31, 2003)

acestro said:


> Not sure why you feel bad, a little introspection is healthy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 first off all very nice looking fish POSX and second i know nothing about the US fish business so i am not going to comment on that but i do know that the bread and butter fish are what keeps the fish hobby going in any country you would not have lfs's if not for the cheap quickly turned around fish like neons etc.
they not my cup of tea but are valuable in there own respect.
as for myself i dont mind spending deceny money on fish if its worth it imo and have spent lots of money on fish and will continue to do so but there are people out there who will think i am stupid for doing so and people who will think the money i have spent is trivial it is all about perspective.

acestro 
very nice looking fryeri had some of those myself i also had an ahli that had amazing colour i actually had a breeding pair (which have now been sold) and you are correct in the UK cichlids are very easy to get whether tank bred or wild its big business here i have seen some beautifull wild caught africans wild amazing colours that lasted a day in the lfs and were sold for a good price for everyone these fish had lots of neon blue or red and orange but i cant remember the names
next time he gets some i may take pics and post them so you can see how good these wild cichlids are.

on another note i dont mind hybrids but i do mind it when they are sold at lfs's as one of the original fish they were spawned from that is bad for the hoddy and i aggree with posx on that one as probably many of you do too.

as you can see this is not a rant or am i getting at anybody its an opinion and how posts should be done.
dixon


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

in regards to your piranha statement Pos X....im not disagreeing with you....but I am asking...whats better?

1) Cheaper and more readily available fish for all to enjoy and learn.... or

2) Expensive and very hard to find piranha for only the elite

and leave QUALITY out of this. I have seen sellers charge a ton and have just as bad quality as sellers that practically give piranha away...


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

I just wanted to comment real quick how I personally feel we are fortunate to have Poseidon X posting on this board.

He has a different view of fishkeeping than others.

This hobby and hopefully this board is about exploration of the hobby and all points of view in it.... I am just glad he has the balls to publicize this view for people to see.

Putting the morality of forced breeding to the side, I completely see where he is coming from. He derives satisfaction from finding and hunting down rare, and high quality fish while others simply derive their satisfaction of the hobby by other means.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

> I am just glad he has the balls to publicize this view for people to see.


But the original argument was that Pose X was (again) inferring the inferiority of the U.S. in fish quality.

I truly enjoy PoseX's inputs and enjoy debating with him on hybrids, etc. I think he and I have brought up good factoids for all to discuss. I just didn't enjoy the potential "Pacific theater" that was developing.


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to our argument! lol

I wish jeff would give a view on this.. because he has stated his feelings on flooding the piranha market before. Besides the fact that it devalues the fish.. we should also look at it in the way that it decreases the excitement the hobby generates.. would there be anything to be excited about if you could buy piraya in every lfs? Its a good hobby fish because there are multiple price layers that exist and if someone really wants to save up for the fish and scrap together his pennies to buy it then he will really cherish that creature because it was a milestone for him.
Personally im in college, but i scraped together every penny i could to buy the fish that i did.. its not some kind of snoborism, i gave up going out on the weekends and drinking or other pointless expenditures to put it towards fish. I cut edges everywhere i could because its what i really wanted to get. It doesnt say anything less if you dont do this, but keep in mind that some people would rather invest all their money in one specimen then buy tons of smaller ones. A nice Pygo shoal costs just as much as a nice fh, so somethign like that is a trade off.

The statements about the small common fish being the bread and butter is absolutely correct, these are the fish that everyone goes at some point whether they are a beginner or advanced keeper.. they also bring in huge dollars, much more then the expensive fish.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

i was just going to say, i never knew it took "balls" to belittle other hobbyists.

i dont have any beef with him, or the fish he keeps. at the same time i wont read his posts without presenting my opinion either.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Puma said:


> i was just going to say, i never knew it took "balls" to belittle other hobbyists.


 I said it took balls to express his opinions.....not that I felt that they were right or done in the best manner.


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## Birdman (Mar 19, 2003)

Bri,how much do you think a nonleucistic one of these would cost?


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

I do understand PX's point. Before raising piranha, I was hooked on the discus and koi hobby. One thing that I have learned is to spend more money on a few nice specimen rather than buying a bunch of low grade fish. As you learn more about the hobby, you develop a keen eye for quality, and end up parting with a lot of fish that you've spent a ton of money on to purchase a few fish that would have cost just as much. It's not about arrogance. It's about personal growth in the hobby and developing a better "eye" with experience.

I believe there was a thread that asked if you could have any fish that you wanted, what would it be? How many answered a school of neons or jack dempseys? More typical answers would be a 20"+ jet black rhom (rare and expensive) or australian lungfish (rare and expensive).


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

The fish I like tend to not be rare (in the wild) or expensive, but occasionally hard to track down! It's cool to want unusual things, we all do, it's not cool to dis a whole continent. Have we all forgotten what argument started this?









Now the saddest thing I heard in this whole thread was this:



> i gave up going out on the weekends and drinking or other pointless expenditures to put it towards fish.










Pointless? you poor poor kid... at least get some Natty Light (







)

Like Puma had suggested, we just all need to throw some back.








You need some drinking buddies, we'll help out!


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## SkardeeKat (Feb 3, 2004)

wow ACETRO, that's a pretty sweet fish. 
what is it?


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

That is a Congo Tetra (_Phenacogrammus __interuptus_)

Some taxonomic synonyms

Phenacogrammus interruptus

Alestopetersius interruptus
Hemigrammalestes interruptus
Petersius codalus
Phenacogrammus interruptus
interruptus (Boulenger, 1899)
Micralestes interruptus Boulenger, 1899

Really very cool larger (up to about 4") Tetras from west Africa


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Wooo-ey! Even tetras have been through the taxonomic name change game! It's amazing how you keep up on that Crockeeper!


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Very interesting discussion,
I'm not going to comment except on the fish that started it,

Leucistic Polypterus are not all that uncommon in the wild,
most if not all of them that are seen in the hobby, are wild caught fish,
They are not the product of specialized breeding, or asian engenuity
rather they are a common mutation.

This fish though clearly is a bred animal as it has that annoying "Stubby"
inbred shortend body, which is beyond me how the hell thats attractive.
it makes a magestic fish look like a toy and a joke.

I have seen naturally leucistic P. endlicheri thay are most beautifull fish,
Best I have seen was a P. bichir laperadi leucistic this was a trully
amazing animal.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Please post pics if you have access to any, Polypterus!


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

acestro said:


> Please post pics if you have access to any, Polypterus!


Unfortunatly back in those days Digital camaras were rare
and I did not take any 35mil of them,

There are some pics floating around of leucistic P. bichir laperadi,
as well as P. senagalus and P. Endlicheri,

one very good one is in Cichlids of Lake Tanganyika by Pierre Brichard
TFH publications 1989, page 446

I'll post back with links to others


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## stilllearnin (Mar 28, 2003)

Interesting thread ,makes a few questions come to mind



> one example of how crappy the usa aquarium hobby


and your doing what to make it better?anything? or just supporting other countries by selling or advertiseing their fish?



> because people in the usa would rather spend alot of money on a bunch of crap that will sit in a garage then pump it into their hobbies


seems like a pretty broad streotype don't you think? there's nothing in my garage but some how all my $'s sitting in this hobby and I know I'm not the only one



> failure to remember that FH is a competition fish. You collect the highest grade specimens so that you can have competition


 And ? that makes them special why? Normal cichlids that are used as competition or show fish don't count?



> and dont give into consideration how much time and value went into crafting a particular fish


 seems to me evolution took longer then any "strain" especially hybrid strains and thats not knocking hybrids but sheesh people spend a few years with a fish so they decide it's worth it's weight in gold ,if you go by the time involved speach every hybrid breeder or seller gives they should be worthless compared to any wild fish :bleh:

This thread was interesting but odd it's almost like saying Mcdonalds and their cheap Hamburgers ruined the food market here so we should order food from overseas or wish all our markets were likewise :sad:

bottom line I'll keep buying what I like and save some overseas breeders their time,if I see a cheap fish I want I'll buy it same with more expensive ones









btw the Leucistic Polypterus was pretty cool


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Well said.



> btw the Leucistic Polypterus was pretty cool










...yes, it is.
(I think this one's ready to be closed....)


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

i started in this hobby cause i was out of work due to sever asthma and decied to starta piranha tank so i went to all the local pet stores to try and find em i only found one and all he had was red belly s so i bought 4 of em for 50 bucks i think they look great 
but then i found this site and after spending time in some of the galleris i want to get some black rhoms or some of them purple or yellow p's but ill wait till i get workin again and can afford em


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

o BTW taht thing look spooky







nice fish


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Supply and demand, very relevant. If leucistic bichirs were coming out of everyones anus would they be so amazing? It is an element of the hobby. 
Sorry to hear about the asthma, I get that with cats it SUCKS!

Hey, anyone hear that sound?

...

....

...

There it goes again....

.........

.......

I think I can hear this thread saying "close me, please"


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Yeah that is the sucking sound of close now 
begin a new thread,

If nothing else lets get back to Bichirs not this stupid 
Eugenic superiority bullshit.

Would like to say though
Poseidon X we butt heads often but I still respect you and your
thoughts,

always a pleasure,

Just to bug you, was it not you that awile back said Polypterus were ugly and nasty looking fish? what changed your mind?


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

I bet it was a tactfully-ambiguous personal insult

your such a sucker poly :sad:


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> I bet it was a tactfully-ambiguous personal insult
> 
> your such a sucker poly :sad:


 No I'm not a sucker P45
I just Keep them as pets :smile:

Not expanding on this as it's pointless


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## BUBBA (Sep 4, 2003)

Poseidon X said:


> im not refereing to our commitment as usa aquarist, but more or less the masses are just not into large fancy fish which is the result of the way fish stores are run with a few notable exceptions.
> The other part is just the general lack of intrest into breeding strains... there really should be no reason that "snow" silver arowana should not be readily available for purchase.. they would even rival some asian strains, but no one invests their time in this i guess.


 I guess Being an American collecting My Blue Collar Fish isnt good enuf.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Well at least most of us serious Americans dont go out and buy A gigas for out 100 gallon tank... the Majority of Asian tanks i see are Horidly over stocked with GIANT fish that cant even turn around... Im not steriotyping asians.. they do it to them selfs... I know one in real life that ordered a gigas and he didnt even have a tank over 55 gallons!!!!! Granted hes a kool person, but not responsable when it comes to fish keeping.

but i do agree.. we get shafted when it comes to nice fish like that polypterus.. sh*t.. idd pay 2 grand for that thing.

anyways.. i think this thread should be canned.. its out of hand.. lol


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Well with that last insiteful comment by Peacock







.....this thread is closed.


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