# Doing big change soon after cycling & need advice



## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

Well guys, cycling should be done this week. Ammonia is lower and lower everyday before I add more. Nitrites hit 4 and are back down to 2, and nitrates are around 8.

Now I plan on doing about a 90% change. I need to know a good mix of Reverse Osmosis water, and tap water. Should I try and get as close to 6.8 pH, and 80 - 100 KH. I plan on testing with a gallon jug, getting the numbers as close as I can then multiplying by the amount I need to fill back up.

Another question, putting the water in from the tap, (about 68 degrees), will that be ok for the bacteria? I know on my weekly changes, I will need about 3 gallons of water, I plan on mixing it up 2 days before my change in a 5 gallon bucket, and heating it and running a bubbler in it. But I have nowhere to heat 30 gallon to put back in lol.

Also, how should I go about refilling? I have a python. I plan on shutting down the filters, draining, filling, adding conditioner, then cranking everything back up. Should be no more then 10 minutes, sound good?

Also, say my tank is cycled on a Wednesday, and I order the fish the same day, and drain the tank Thursday morning, and put the fish in Thursday afternoon, will the bacteria still be ok? I mean, a few hours isn't too long with not ammonia source right?


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## burna (Feb 10, 2004)

why are you doing a 90% water change during the cycle, or even right after it? I wouldn't, just leave it and put the fish in when the cycle is finished then do a water change about 7-10 days after.

I never shut down my equipment when doing water changes, but if it suits your fancy, then go for it.

for being a doctor, you sure ask alot of questions. j/k lol


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## Pterogho (Feb 8, 2004)

Well. Burna's got a point there.

You're making fish-keeping alot more scientific than really needed.

Fish and plants can survive and multiply in much less optimal conditions than you seem to be reaching for.

Ease up a bit, or you might risk burning out of interest long before your tank need a re-do.


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

Ummmm, I cycled with straight ammonia, the Nitrates are going to be so high after the cycle is done, that a water change will indeed be needed.

And no, I want optimum conditions for my fish. One, it needs optimum conditions to grow to it's fullest potential, and two, theres no way I want to kill this fish, too much time and money invested for that.


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## Pterogho (Feb 8, 2004)

Well.
In that case, then go along.
But one, I never shut down my filters, the O2 within is often terribly fast done with.
Two, when you are prepared to that much extra about it, it can't be too much for you to simply temperate the new water before you let it into your tank.
Third, reversed osmosis water may lack alot of minerals and trace-elements needed for for the tanks well-being as a whole, so I to me a 90% waterchange seem quite drastic. I surgest you check for sufficient amount of iron, cubber and whatever is measurable in that line of stuff, and find means to add it if needed.
About the KH. 80-100?!! You must have got something wrong, 10-20 should keep the Ph just fine.

Man!! 90% in a working set-up? That's huge.

But I'm still confused about this cycling-thing.

I just set up the tank with base-fertilizer, gravel, decor, filters, heaters, lights and water, add a bit of fish-food and let it run for a week.
Then I put in the plants, and let it run for another week.
Then it's time for letting the fish in, and usually after another week it's due for the first partial change of water.

I've learn by experience, that if I try to rush this procedure, I'm asking for trouble.

So why are you guys in such a hurry, do your ever have time to enjoy your hobby?

Maybe I'm just way too old-school.


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

Im in no rush. I have read that pure ammonia is a good way to cycle a new tank.

I am doing a mix of reverse osmosis/ tap water. I get a lower pH, a good KH, and it's not much harder.

Read the article that I am using to do my cycle, maybe it will explain it better then me.

http://www.aquamaniacs.net/cyclingsafelyfishless.html

Regards,
Jeromy


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## burna (Feb 10, 2004)

Ahhh just do whatever you want. your probably doing more work than you need to, but if it gives you piece of mind, then go for it.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Pterogho said:


> You're making fish-keeping alot more scientific than really needed.


 Its this type of attitude which accomplishes nothing....

This type of thinking divides the true Hobbyest from the common fish keeper.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Pterogho said:


> Well.
> In that case, then go along.
> But one, I never shut down my filters, the O2 within is often terribly fast done with.
> Two, when you are prepared to that much extra about it, it can't be too much for you to simply temperate the new water before you let it into your tank.
> ...


 doctorvtec, I hope you can see how "Informed" this guy is.

bypass his post. Dont take advice from some one who does not understand the basics of fishkeeping, such as the cycle. i dont mean to be rude.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

doctorvtec said:


> Well guys, cycling should be done this week. Ammonia is lower and lower everyday before I add more. Nitrites hit 4 and are back down to 2, and nitrates are around 8.
> 
> Now I plan on doing about a 90% change. I need to know a good mix of Reverse Osmosis water, and tap water. Should I try and get as close to 6.8 pH, and 80 - 100 KH. I plan on testing with a gallon jug, getting the numbers as close as I can then multiplying by the amount I need to fill back up.
> 
> ...


 6.8 pH, and 80 - 100 KH sounds fine.

68 is to low, if you cannot preheat that volume of water dont do it.. do a smaller water change such as 40%, but do the 40% 2 times... do 1 in the morning and 1 at night. keep a little Amonia in the water though.. dont let the bacteria go without food.

what filters do you have? i leave mine on, the propeller keeps movment and disolves air into the water left in the filter.. this helps the bacteria. although, this cannot be done with canisters and wetdrys.

Mix the conditioner into the new water befor you add it into the tank.

keep a little amonia in the water... just add a little bit to ensure bacteria survival.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

doctorvtec said:


> And no, I want optimum conditions for my fish. One, it needs optimum conditions to grow to it's fullest potential, and two, theres no way I want to kill this fish, too much time and money invested for that.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

doctorvtec said:


> Im in no rush. I have read that pure ammonia is a good way to cycle a new tank.


 the BEST way. True hobbyest dont cycle with feeder fish..


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## Pterogho (Feb 8, 2004)

Peacock said:


> doctorvtec, I hope you can see how "Informed" this guy is.
> 
> bypass his post. Dont take advice from some one who does not understand the basics of fishkeeping, such as the cycle. i dont mean to be rude.


 I may not completely understand what you mean by "cycling"
English is not my daily speaking, but when I set up a tank I do feed my filters to make them running at full speed once I set in the fish.
Isn't that what you do when "cycling"?
Otherwise please inform me.

Claiming that I don't understand the basics of fishkeeping is indeed rude, and I certainly take this very offensive.

I've been about this for nearly 20 years now, and have so far only "lost" one tank, due to a CO2-valve going bad.

If you feel doubt about my actual knowlegde, please confront my directly, not like this.

Thank you.


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## smithgrind_who (Mar 26, 2004)

Peacock said:


> what filters do you have? i leave mine on, the propeller keeps movment and disolves air into the water left in the filter.. this helps the bacteria. although, this cannot be done with canisters and wetdrys.


So you don't turn off your filters to clean them? I have an AqucaClear 300 power filter and I turn it off to clean it. I dump the water that collects in it along with a lot of waste contained inside it. Is it good to leave a filter on letting air surround the impeller or cavitating?


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## joefromcanada (Apr 16, 2004)

instead of doing 90% water change to lower ur nitrates do like 10% for a couple days in a row till ur nitrates are low.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Pterogho said:


> Peacock said:
> 
> 
> > doctorvtec, I hope you can see how "Informed" this guy is.
> ...


 ah, i didnt know this was your second language. now i feel like an ass.

sorry dude i didnt understand this was your second lang. you probly know what cycling is, you just dont know how to explain it using english..

Cycling is a term used in describing the process of cultivating a few species of bacteria in the home aquaria.

now the second "Term" for cycling is the process in which solids are broken down by these bacteria cultivated. like dead plant matter will be broken down into Amonia, then Amonia will be converted into Nitrite, then nitrite will be converted into nitrate... nitrate can be converted but in the "common" fishkeepers tank this does not happen,,,,,,,, much.

understand? i can go deeper if you would like.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

smithgrind_who said:


> Peacock said:
> 
> 
> > what filters do you have? i leave mine on, the propeller keeps movment and disolves air into the water left in the filter.. this helps the bacteria. although, this cannot be done with canisters and wetdrys.
> ...


 no, i leave the filters on when im just doing a water change..

i turn the filters off when i clean the media.


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## Pterogho (Feb 8, 2004)

Peacock said:


> nitrate can be converted but in the "common" fishkeepers tank this does not happen,,,,,,,, much.
> 
> understand? i can go deeper if you would like.


 Yup! I certainly invite you to go deeper.

The only ways I know to rid my tank of nitrates, are partial water-change or to tie up the nitrates in other matter, eg. plants, ionic-change beds or, as I just recently learned, letting anaerobic bacteria simply consume the nitrate.

This other thing with adding ammonia to the tank, is to me just polluting an highly confined habitat.

Thirdly nitrates can be converted by an de-nitrification process, but this only cause the build-up of one of the most fatal poisons in our tanks, ammonium.
I think what you call NH3.

I've also theorised on a way to break the nitrates down into oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen, and then force it out of the water and into the atmosphere, but have so far failed in the practical.

I'm furhermore very confused about the Kh at 80-100.
What standard do these numbers come from?

I've asked around in the circles I come in, and no-one knows what all this is about.
Could there simply be a "culturel" difference at work here, or are all danish tank-aholics like dim-wits? I find it hard to believe so.


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

The only reason I am adding ammonia to the tank is becasue I am cycling without fish.

The KH is measured in parts per million. 80-100 ppm equals 4-6 dkh.


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## Pterogho (Feb 8, 2004)

...... and so things start to make sense.

But there is still some difference in the way we approach the start-up sequence of an aquarium.

If we can't get hold of "living" material from an already running filter, we can go to the pet-store and buy either dead or living bacteria, that we then kind of vaccinate the tank with.
Instead of then adding some chemical like the ammonia, we just feed these bacteria with a very (please note "very") little bit of protein-rich food, and wooppie here we go. 
This is the fast approach.

Others just let nature take it's time


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Pterogho said:


> ...... and so things start to make sense.
> 
> But there is still some difference in the way we approach the start-up sequence of an aquarium.
> 
> ...


 feeding with the Flake food takes soo much longer then just adding in pure NH3.

Crushing up flake food to cycle the tank is a horible way to cultivate bacteria.


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## Pterogho (Feb 8, 2004)

Peacock said:


> Crushing up flake food to cycle the tank is a horible way to cultivate bacteria.


 Hmm.
I've usually been able to get the cycle done within a week using trout-breeding pellets, they're almost pure protein. 
And a week is fast enough for me.

But what intrigues me the most, is that I got the understanding that you continuosly add chemicals (second term, as you previously called it) to your tanks, to convert the nitrates.
- Or have I got your message wrong.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Pterogho said:


> Peacock said:
> 
> 
> > Crushing up flake food to cycle the tank is a horible way to cultivate bacteria.
> ...


 there is no difference in adding Pure NH3 then adding Food which will then be broken down into NH3..

its the SAME molecule.. its just putting in food will take much longer to cycle..

i doubt your tank was cycled in 1 weak using food. Unless you added some old filter media which allready had alot of heterotrophic bacteria.


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## Pterogho (Feb 8, 2004)

Well. Let's leave it at this.

But Peacock!
I still miss an answer on how you mean nitrates can be converted, unless I've already answered it myself in my earlier message.


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## DonH (Jan 25, 2003)

Outside of using a ton of plants, nitrates can be converted to nitrogen gas through a process called denitrification. This process utilizes anaerobic bacteria to break down nitrates (as opposed to aerobic nitrifiers that oxidize ammonia and nitrite).


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## Pterogho (Feb 8, 2004)

DonH said:


> Outside of using a ton of plants, nitrates can be converted to nitrogen gas through a process called denitrification. This process utilizes anaerobic bacteria to break down nitrates (as opposed to aerobic nitrifiers that oxidize ammonia and nitrite).


 Mmmhhh!








Still hanging on edge of more book-burning !!

I've learned that the de-nitrification process is a reversion of the ammonia->nitrate cycle, ending in a build up toxic ammonia, triggered by a raising of th Ph, and that it by all means should avoided.

Please inform me on litterature on the subject, for wich I do not need a higher bio-chemical education to cope with.
Or simply guide me to some info on how to get started, and how to monitor and control the process.

Raptor introduced me to a denitrator some time ago, but this gadget seems awfullly tricky to handle.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Pterogho said:


> DonH said:
> 
> 
> > Outside of using a ton of plants, nitrates can be converted to nitrogen gas through a process called denitrification. This process utilizes anaerobic bacteria to break down nitrates (as opposed to aerobic nitrifiers that oxidize ammonia and nitrite).
> ...


 As you can see DonH blows me away when it comes to Vocabulary..

Its hard for me to get my point across even for people who use English as their main language..

Ill give DonH a chance to post up first..

if he does not then ill do it and see if you can understant it.


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