# Jihad???



## BraveHeart007 (May 19, 2004)

I got this story sent to me today...

The Muslim religion in the fastest growing religion per capita in the United States, especially in the minority races!!!

Allah or Jesus?
by Rick Mathes

Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their belief systems.

I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video.

After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers.

When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"
< BR>

There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, "Non-believers!"

I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?"

The __expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He she! epishly replied, "Yes."

I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr.Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!"

The Imam was speechless.

I continued, "I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. ! Let me ask you a question.

Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?"

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.

Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the 'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs.

I think everyone in the US should be required to read this, but with the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized. Please pass this on to all your e-mail contacts.

This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathes, is a well known leader in prison ministry.


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/rickmathes.html


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## BAMBINO (May 29, 2004)

brave heart...

- very very good post.

i like this guy brave heart. - good job.

Jesus Christ is not god though.

deep post. good thread.


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Did you gloss over the part where the whole "article" was bullshit that never happened?

Good article indeed









Check this one,

Christianity, Crusades or child pornography?

By Some Guy On the Net

The other day I was attending a conference on christianity put on by the pope. When it came time for questions I asked the pope what he thought about child pornography. He told me that children were put on earth by god to fulfill priest's sexual urges but should never be photographed. He also told me that those who spoke out or refused the priest sexual gratification would be sent right to hell. He even explained that the whole of Christianity was founded on molesting kids and jesus himself was fond of sodomizing locals in Jerusalem.

Obviously I knew I had the pope cornered about his faith so I put this on the internet and it's TOTALLY true dude...


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

i didnt read sh*t i just saw a chance to use this


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

BAMBINO said:


> Jesus Christ is not god though.


 I disagree.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

I always thought jesus called himself "the son of god" I could be wrong - I sometimes am.

Why does people call mary the mother of god? If jesus himself was supposly the son of god?


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

biologically mary is the mother....spiritually jesus is the son....its symbolic. Just like in other religions, it isn't always taken literally.


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

not yet.. but eventually, im sure.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

diddye said:


> biologically mary is the mother....spiritually jesus is the son....its symbolic. Just like in other religions, it isn't always taken literally.


 Its either symbolic are taken of context


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## Heartless-Dealer (Aug 3, 2003)

BAMBINO said:


> brave heart...
> 
> - very very good post.
> 
> ...


 i disagree
he is god


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

Heartless-Dealer said:


> BAMBINO said:
> 
> 
> > brave heart...
> ...


 I disagree 
he is not god








He is god's son, he even says so himself and its clearly stated in the bible


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## piranhaha (Mar 22, 2004)

jesus is god in the flesh


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2004)

Today's list of Muslim terrorist attacks:

4 dead and over 100 currently being hld hostage in Moscow:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/01...hool/index.html

16 people killed in Israel when two bomb exploded simultaeneously on two separate buses. Note the attacks occurred in the area where the separtion wall hasn't been built. No attacks occurred in the area where the wall has been built.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/09/01/mideast/index.html

12 Nepalese employees in Iraq have been executed by the insurgent terrorists:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/08/31/...main/index.html

2 French journalists were taken hostage in Iraq. This story is signifigant because it shows that no amount of capitulation and surrender will make you safe from Islamic terrorists. The French are just beginning to learn this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3611494.stm

I'm sure there were lots of Jewish and Christian based terrorist attacks that the infidel media failed to report.


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

Bullsnake said:


> I'm sure there were lots of Jewish and Christian based terrorist attacks that the infidel media failed to report.


 not to mention all those evil Buddhist terrorists..that's who I am really afraid of !


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## scrubbs (Aug 9, 2003)

braveheart, are you on an anti-muslim mailing list?


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

Jewelz said:


> Bullsnake said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure there were lots of Jewish and Christian based terrorist attacks that the infidel media failed to report.
> ...


 Multiple factions of meditating monks attempting to exterminate Western religion. Who would tolerate that? Yet the media often gives a politically coorect pass to radical Islam.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

even though we call them "radicals" and "extremists", people claim they are a minority and dont represesnt muslims. I dont think they are a minority as many many arabs support these groups, maybe not all financially, but at least moral support.


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

+1


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## scrubbs (Aug 9, 2003)

if about 1/8 of the world agreed with them, there would be a lot more trouble i think.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

scrubbs said:


> if about 1/8 of the world agreed with them, there would be a lot more trouble i think.


 Explain.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

most of you are obviously not familiar with the doctrine of trinity. there is the father, son, and holy spirit. they are seperate entities while being the same at once. this is explained in the bible. the "true" god being the creator, jesus being the flesh form, and the holy spirit is, well, the holy spirit.

but while they're seperate entities, they are unified. and no, i'm not religious at all.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

oh yeah, i highly doubt a muslim leader would "hang his head in shame" in front of howevermany people were there. that article is a crock of sh*t.


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## BraveHeart007 (May 19, 2004)

BAMBINO said:


> brave heart...
> 
> - very very good post.
> 
> ...


 Bambino your mormon arnt you??

You didnt anwser that question in one of the last posts i did....


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Excellent article!









Whether you believe Jesus is God or not, it does not change the fact that Jesus is God.


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## scrubbs (Aug 9, 2003)

Fargo said:


> scrubbs said:
> 
> 
> > if about 1/8 of the world agreed with them, there would be a lot more trouble i think.
> ...


islam is the worlds largest religion. almost 1.5 billion people practice it. saying that a majority of muslims support them would be about 750,000,000 people (12.1 percent of the world pupulation, 1/8=12.5%). if that many people actually supported them, the world would be in much worse shape i'm sure.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

You all need to go to church if you dont know what Jesus was, or do some googling.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

The world is in bad shape. Look at all the terrorism that's happening all over the globe. It's by the grace of God that America is a Godly nation and is by America that the evil doers are in check.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

well, we can agree basically all palestinians support terrorism(or almost). Lets add....say 20% of iraqis? Lets say half of chechnya, 5% of SE asia, and 10% of the middle east. That alone is quite a lot of people. We can use the figure by scrubbs and say 10% of them support terrorism. I'd say 150 million people who support it is a lot and thats being conservative. We all know the middle east has poor view of the western world and considering how easily the streets fill up to protest america, that proves the figure is small. When websites like aljeezera has such strong support, doesn't it mean that its viewers support the website?


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## scrubbs (Aug 9, 2003)

i read al jazeera


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## User (May 31, 2004)

scrubbs said:


> i read al jazeera


 So, whats your point?


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## Heartless-Dealer (Aug 3, 2003)

User said:


> scrubbs said:
> 
> 
> > i read al jazeera
> ...


 yea bro what is ur point..
al jazeera is a media that is proven to support fundamentalist type radicals


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

i read al jazeera too everyday (jst to see others points of view), but i know im the minority in the western world. Its a fact that al jeezera holds the monopoly for dispersing info in the arab world....one thing i've noticed is that the 6 months i've been reading it, there has not been ONE positive article about america. No wonder they hate america if they only see one side of it.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Excellent article!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 fact? what fact? all i have to go by is the bible. and who can prove jesus was truly god-like in anyway? what, because the bible says so? what proof is there? i was a "born-again christian" at one point in time. not once did "god" answer my prayers. when i asked for his help, when i prayed every night, all i got was a slap in the face. so tell me where god is?

now, i'm not saying that there is no supreme being, but the whole "god" thing is just...unbelievable. religion is just another form of a regime to keep a hold on humans and keep us in line. a regimented order on which we can base our moral standards on top of. not to say that it's bad, but unfortunately, that's what it is.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

What proof? The existence of Israel is proof.

PROPHECIES FULFILLED BY JESUS CHRIST

The Old Testament, written over a 1,000 year period, contains over 300 references to the coming Messiah. All of these were fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and they established a solid confirmation of His credentials as the Messiah; the Anointed One (King; Priest; Saint); Intercessor (to release or deliver; help; meet; seek; accompany).

Many of the prophecies concerning the messiah were totally beyond human control:

Birth: Place, time, manner of.

Death: Peoples reactions, piercing of side, burial

Resurrection: Where did His body go?

By using the modern science of probability in reference to just eight of these prophecies --- the chance that any man might have lived to fulfill all eight prophecies is one in one hundred trillion!

To illustrate this: If we take 100 trillion silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas, they would be two feet deep. Now we mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly --- all over the state. Now blindfold a man and let him travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick only one silver dollar. What chance would he have of picking the right one? The same chance that the prophets would have of writing just eight of these prophecies and having them all come true for any one man --- if they had written them without God's inspiration!

The chance of any one man fulfilling all of 48 prophecies is one in 10 to the 157 power. The electron is about as small an object as we can imagine. if we had a cubic inch of these electrons and tried to count them, it would take us (at 250 per minute) 19,000 time 19,000 time 19,000 years to count them. Now mark one of them, and thoroughly stir it into the whole mass. What chance does our blindfolded man have of finding the right electron? --- The same chance as one man of fulfilling 48 of the prophecies about Christ, without being the Son of God!

Jesus Christ fulfilled every prophecy written about the coming Messiah --- over three hundred of them! Would that have been possible had He not been the Son of God?

Here is a short listing of some of the hundreds of prophecies concerning Christ:

Linage Genesis 3:15; 9:26: 22:18; 26:4; 28:14; 49:10; 2 & Samual 7:12-16

Son of God Psalm 2:6-7

Virgin birth Isaiah 7:14

Birthplace Micah 5:2

Piercing of side Zechariah 12:10

Darkness Psalm 22:2

Vinegar Psalm 69:21

Mocking Psalm 22:6-8

Nakedness Psalm 22:17

Gambling for clothes Psalm 22:18

Unbroken bones Psalm 34:20

Burial Isaiah 53:9

Resurrection Psalm 16:10; Hosea 6:2; Psalm 30:3,9; Isaiah 53:10

Assention to right hand of God Psalm 110:1; 68:18; Proverbs 30:4; 24:3-10


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

OTHER HISTORICAL PROPHESIES

In addition to the hundreds of Biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled in the past, there are a special class of predictions that focus on the events of what the Scriptures call "the last days", "the latter times", or other similar expressions. These prophecies also provide further evidence of Biblical inspiration, since many of them are being fulfilled right before our eyes! As more and more of these ancient predictions are seen coming to pass, the evidence for the Divine origin of the Bible is made stronger all the time.

THE RE-ESTABLISHMENT OF ISRAEL

The most important of these end-time prophecies, the re-establishment of Israel as a nation in it's ancient homeland. That a nation could be completely destroyed as an organized entity by an invading army (by the Romans in 70 AD), it's people either slaughtered or scattered from one end of the world to the other, it's lands occupied and ruled by aliens for over 1900 years. Yet Israel survived as a distinct nationality, and then finally regained its homeland and became recognized as a viable nation once more by the other nations of the world. (1/191)

Seems impossible? Even so, it was predicted to happen many centuries before it happened. Jesus Himself predicted the fall of Jerusalem in Luke 19:43-44, "The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you." Deuteronomy 28:64 prophesies "Then the Lord will scatter you among the nations from one end of the earth to the other." Jesus again predicts in Luke 21:24, "They will fall by the sword and will be taken prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles, until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.".

The Jews began to return to Palestine in small numbers in the early part of the twentieth century, and then in much larger numbers after World War I. After World War II the Israeli nation was re-established in part in 1948, and in 1967 in the "six-day war" Israel recaptured the "old city" of Jerusalem. Amazingly, Jerusalem is now completely under Jewish control, except for one spot. This is on Mount Moriah where the Arabs have built their famous Dome-of-the-Rock, the second most holy place in the Muslim world. The Jews for political or other reasons have not yet dared to expel the Arabs from this site, raze it, and proceed to rebuild their temple, as they must want to do. (1/192-193) "Last Days Prophecy" is being fulfilled right before our eyes!


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

WHAT IF?

Please ask your-self this: if all the historical, scientific, and prophetic statements made in the Bible are true and accurate; then WHAT ABOUT THE THINGS THAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT US HAVING ETERNAL LIFE (OR DEATH) BECAUSE OF THE CHOICES THAT YOU MAKE NOW (OR DON'T MAKE) --- THAT CAN AFFECT YOUR ETERNAL FUTURE?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

FACT! Noah's Ark.

At 7,000 feet, in the midst of crevasses and landslide debris, the explorers found a clear, grassy area shaped like a ship and rimmed with steep, packed-earth sides. Its dimensions are close to those given in Genesis: 'The length of the ark shall be 300 cubits, the breadth of it 50 cubits, and the height of it 30 cubits,' that is, 450x75x45 feet. A quick two-day survey revealed no sign that the object was man made. Yet a scientist in the group says nothing in nature could create such a symmetrical shape. A thorough excavation may be made another year to solve the mystery."


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

jesus was a non-fictional person, no doubt. but what PROOF do you have that he performed these miracles? there is none. all you can do is cite the bible and other references that are of no real meaning. of course, you can say, "but that can be said about everyone, where is the real proof?"

well, there's actual results of their actions. jesus travelled, he existed, as did many biblical people. like i said, there's no doubt about that. but where is the proof that miracles happened? i could just say that george washington shot apples out of his ass because god possessed him. and it would be a fact because it was written down on paper?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Scientific Facts in the Bible

1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.

3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth's free float in space: "He...hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).

4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).

5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: "Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?" (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement-that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn't discover this until 1864 when "British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing" (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).

6. Job 38:19 asks, "Where is the way where light dwells?" Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a "way," traveling at 186,000 miles per second.

7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..."

8. "Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth" (Time, Dec. 1976).

9. Solomon described a "cycle" of air currents two thousand years before scientists "discovered" them. "The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits" (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.

11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body's mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled," and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."

12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15-24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called "behemoth." Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo's tail isn't like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, "He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.

13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under "running water."

14. Luke 17:34-36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.

15. "During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to 'bad air' or 'evil spirits.' However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: 'The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation' (A History of Medicine)." Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world's religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, "Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence." (11:3 continued)


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

once again, all you're making reference to is the obvious. no sh*t there's night and day, omg, there are atoms? you're acting like these things never existed in the era of BC. find me proof of the miracles, not things that already exist. i could still say that copernicus was able to map and plot stars and constellations without the use of a tellescope. that doesn't mean a damn thing.

night and day isn't a miracle. a child's need [or lack thereof] to be circumsized isn't a miracle. atoms aren't a miracle either. i said it before, and i'll say it again, show me proof of MIRACLES, not every day happenings, lol.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

BAMBINO said:


> Jesus Christ is not god though.


 here.. let me fill you in...

you are correct.. he is not god.. thats becuase there is no SUCH THING AS GOD..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Atoms were not discovered until the 60s, whereas God has wirtten it in the Bible 1000s of years ago. 200 yrs ago people thought the earth was a square, God says in the Bible it's round, 1000s of yrs ago. Scientist did not discover the earth hangs in outer space until the 20th centry. God told us in the Bible 1000s yrs ago. FACTS, FACTS, FACTS.

Who should I listen to? Who should I depend my eternity on? You or the Bible?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

God=Love and you are against that. No wonder why there's so much hatred in this world.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Atoms were not discovered until the 60s, whereas God has wirtten it in the Bible 1000s of years ago. 200 yrs ago people thought the earth was a square, God says in the Bible it's round, 1000s of yrs ago. Scientist did not discover the earth hangs in outer space until the 20th centry. God told us in the Bible 1000s yrs ago. FACTS, FACTS, FACTS.
> 
> Who should I listen to? Who should I depend my eternity on? You or the Bible?


 he made reference to "things which do not appear", he didn't say "atoms." if you had studied western philosophy, you would know that the theory of atoms was around for QUITE A LONG f*cking TIME. it was only until the 1960s that the atom was PROVEN TO BE REAL [unlike jesus's miracles].

and uhm, once again, you need to study some european geniuses. because copernicus proved, once again, without a telescope, that the earth orbited around the sun, and not vice versa. i don't know where you're getting all this 20th century crap, but i think you should do some research on both sides before trying to put out untrue facts, lol.

and uh "FACTS, FACTS, FACT"? I THINK NOT. they were merely theories until proven to be reality by great minds. great western AND eastern minds had discovered [or had theories regarding] these topics BEFORE or even DURING the time of christ. and they never had access to the middle east. so what do you have to say about that? i suppose god told them the answer?


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

nope, i'm not against love at all. i encourage peace. but i strongly discourage blind followings and close mindedness, which christians never fail to show me. like i said, i was a born again christian for a long time, so it's not like i'm speaking from one perspective. i've been able to open mind and weigh out both sides and think for myself, logically. and guess what, the bible's miracles still have yet to be proven to me. have you run out of web sites to cite?


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

hyphen said:


> rchan11 said:
> 
> 
> > Atoms were not discovered until the 60s, whereas God has wirtten it in the Bible 1000s of years ago. 200 yrs ago people thought the earth was a square, God says in the Bible it's round, 1000s of yrs ago. Scientist did not discover the earth hangs in outer space until the 20th centry. God told us in the Bible 1000s yrs ago. FACTS, FACTS, FACTS.
> ...


 you are correct.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

hyphen said:


> nope, i'm not against love at all. i encourage peace. but i strongly discourage blind followings and close mindedness, which christians never fail to show me. like i said, i was a born again christian for a long time, so it's not like i'm speaking from one perspective. i've been able to open mind and weigh out both sides and think for myself, logically. and guess what, the bible's miracles still have yet to be proven to me. have you run out of web sites to cite?


 exactly.... eeeexxxactly!!!


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> God=Love and you are against that. No wonder why there's so much hatred in this world.


 what happened with the crusades?

love? i think not..


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

go to any hospital, and ask doctors/nurses...and they'll tell you they see impossible things happen. My mothers a nurse too.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

Peacock said:


> rchan11 said:
> 
> 
> > God=Love and you are against that. No wonder why there's so much hatred in this world.
> ...


 yup. the spanish inquisition was just a happy group of people that liked to drag people into their chambers to discuss happy thoughs, like sunshine and kittens!


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

diddye said:


> go to any hospital, and ask doctors/nurses...and they'll tell you they see impossible things happen. My mothers a nurse too.


 okay, what's that have to do with jesus?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Copernicus and his telescope happened in the 1600. God talked about it 6000 yrs ago.

"they were merely theories until proven to be reality by great minds"

These great minds proved the existence of God. I don't need facts to prove the existense of God. I believe my faith. Facts are there to prove that God is true.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

diddye said:


> go to any hospital, and ask doctors/nurses...and they'll tell you they see impossible things happen. My mothers a nurse too.


maybe miracles come from inner human desire and strength to live, and not any god. that can't sound any more dumbass than the above posts.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Copernicus and his telescope happened in the 1600. God talked about it 6000 yrs ago.
> 
> "they were merely theories until proven to be reality by great minds"
> 
> These great minds proved the existence of God. I don't need facts to prove the existense of God. I believe my faith. Facts are there to prove that God is true.


faith is another word for "i have no real proof, so i'll trust what i've been told". great minds prove god? please do elaborate. i have a feeling that you're running out of things to say.  because, everything written in the bible is simply vague generalizations of theories that were seen all throughout the world. and verses in the bible are VERY metaphorical and vague. it could mean anything.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

spanish inquisition? Anyone can claim to be Christians. Unless you're Christ like=Christian, you don't do those things that happened during the inquisition.

You can call yourself a doctor and if you can't treat a patient, you're phony. If you don't love like Jesus loved and gave His life for us, then you're no Christian.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> spanish inquisition? Anyone can claim to be Christians. Unless you're Christ like=Christian, you don't do those things that happened during the inquisition.
> 
> You can call yourself a doctor and if you can't treat a patient, you're phony. If you don't love like Jesus loved and gave His life for us, then you're no Christian.


 if you can love like jesus or be christ-like, that would essentially make you christ and make his perfection be null and void. a christian [protestant] is someone that accepts christ into his/her heart. no human can be christ-like or love like christ, error is a part of human nature. you can strive to be like him, but never will you achieve it [if what has been written about him IS true].

therefor, the sapnish inquisition can be said to have been christians.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

You can find flaws and faults with anyone. Can you find any wrong with Jesus?


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> You can find flaws and faults with anyone. Can you find any wrong with Jesus?


did i ever know the guy? nope. it's not like i was sittin back and watching the camels have sex while drinkin a brewskie with old jesus h. christ. lol. you're basing all your knowledge of this man on a bible. anyone can write a documentary and make the man look perfect.

oh yeah, and you said that being christ-like was what made you christian. so, you're now saying that the spanish inquisition is christian, since they did have flaws. they killed in the name of christ....


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

This great nation was found by Christians. The money we use have "in God we trust". Our laws are based upon the 10 commandments.

The modern day hospital system was found by Christians as well as Salvation Army and Red Cross. True Christians are here to help others and not to tear others down.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> This great nation was found by Christians. The money we use have "in God we trust". Our laws are based upon the 10 commandments.
> 
> The modern day hospital system was found by Christians as well as Salvation Army and Red Cross. True Christians are here to help others and not to tear others down.


 and once again, you prove my point even further. that religion was formed to base a set of standards on top of. a foundation for civilization, lik ei mentioned several posts above. i suppose you believe the free masons were also great christians that were set out for the good of all people. come on now.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

I think it's important for any religious path to respect all people's freedom of thought, as long as it poses no harm to others. We come into this world alone and we leave it alone, and how we relate to God is a very individual thing. Therefore it is unfair for any group to claim monopoly on something that is highly personal. If we belong to an organized religion, that's fine, but that experience is a borrowed one, since we ultimately cannot depend on people but only on God. I think God would prefer us not believing in him out of a heart-felt conviction than blindly following him.

I do belong to a Methodist church and consider myself a Christian, but there were times when I was so down and out, and the people in my church just couldn't be there for me. I learned over time that my own individual committment to God - not the rules the Church defined for me - was the only thing that kept me going.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

You are judging "Christians" without knowing what a true Christian is like. Christian=Christ like. Better read the Bible and get a better idea.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

Fargo said:


> I think it's important for any religious path to respect all people's freedom of thought, as long as it poses no harm to others. We come into this world alone and we leave it alone, and how we relate to God is a very individual thing. Therefore it is unfair for any group to claim monopoly on something that is highly personal. If we belong to an organized religion, that's fine, but that experience is a borrowed one, since we ultimately cannot depend on people but only on God. I think God would prefer us not believing in him out of a heart-felt conviction than blindly following him.
> 
> I do belong to a Methodist church and consider myself a Christian, but there were times when I was so down and out, and the people in my church just couldn't be there for me. I learned over time that my own individual committment to God - not the rules the Church defined for me - was the only thing that kept me going.


 best christian response i've heard in this thread, yet.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> You are judging "Christians" without know what a true Christian is like. Christian=Christ like. Better read the Bible and get a better idea.


 lol bro. you have no idea. you didn't even know what the doctrine of trinity was, and you're trying to tell ME what i do and don't know about the bible? now you're just resorting to petty name calling since you've been proven wrong about a gajillion times.

have fun


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

oh yeah, the bible specifically says that you gain entrance to heaven through acceptance of christ in your heart. "christ-like" living is nowhere mentioned.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

I put the wrong smily face on. I have made a correction. Should be a


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

My apology if I offended you Hyphen.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

nah, no offense taken at all bro.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

User said:


> diddye said:
> 
> 
> > go to any hospital, and ask doctors/nurses...and they'll tell you they see impossible things happen. My mothers a nurse too.
> ...


 maybe, but some things can't be explained by science. At the very least, you have to believe there is a higher being. To think this whole world is by chance is naive. Remember the whole big bang theory and how the creation of the universes happened? It was recently debunked by hawking who was the guy who wrote the theory....or at least thats my hazy memory of what i read.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

hyphen said:


> oh yeah, the bible specifically says that you gain entrance to heaven through acceptance of christ in your heart. "christ-like" living is nowhere mentioned.


 2Cor5:17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


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## Revolt (Jun 26, 2004)

Is it me are is there no mention of the word "faith" at all in this thread so far... i'm non religious and noticed this.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

my two cents
religion was made by man for man to govern man
the myans knew the earth was round 
cosmologists actually say the exact opposite (get ahold of astonomy monthly or discovery) your quoting from 1970's they have learned a lot since then

so do you follow all the books or just the ones that were deamed acceptable
by the 3rd century christians? the bible as we know it is half the size it was in second century (wouldnt ya think its closer to what god says) and early christians hacked and slashed what they didnt want which makes me think
the bible isnt as relevant as you think. Also the bible has been through countless translations and every translation takes ya farther from what it should be,
im guessin ya havent read the forbidden books cuz they contradict other parts of bible and thats why early christians edited the bible id say do more researce

from how i understood it hawkins didnt dubunk it he changed it from a standard bubble univ to an excellerating thread univ


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

chan mentioned faith a couple times.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

hyphen said:


> oh yeah, the bible specifically says that you gain entrance to heaven through acceptance of christ in your heart.


 You do know the Bible.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> hyphen said:
> 
> 
> > oh yeah, the bible specifically says that you gain entrance to heaven through acceptance of christ in your heart. "christ-like" living is nowhere mentioned.
> ...


 I think if more Christians spent their time being Christ-like the world would be a much betterplace.


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## Revolt (Jun 26, 2004)

hyphen said:


> chan mentioned faith a couple times.


 I guess I didn't read all of his posts, its hard to read everything in this thread, its become confusing.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Delta,

That's because the Devil will give you a gallon of truth and an ounce of poison. It's the ounce of poison that's going to kill you.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Fargo said:


> rchan11 said:
> 
> 
> > hyphen said:
> ...


 Well said Fargo.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

so what are ya challengin


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

delta said:


> so what are ya challengin


 I'm answering to what you are saying concerning why some part of the Bible was rejected.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

delta said:


> im guessin ya havent read the forbidden books cuz they contradict other parts of bible and thats why early christians edited the bible id say do more researce


 This brings up the major dispute over whether we can attain a Christ-like state or if we're completely sinners and must accept our inferiority to Jesus at all times. Many of the banned books advocate union with Christ prior to death and judgement.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

The Devil does not want us to have the truth. He tried to destroy the Bible with no avail. As a deceiver, Satan put false scriptures in the Bible (poison mixing with truth) to deceive people.


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## PygoManiac (Jul 26, 2004)

Religion and God are two things I have withdrawn my faith from recently. I'm a Hindu by religion, but blindly believing in something whose existence hasnnt been proved, isnt something I'd do.








Prehistoric man was scared of lightning, fire, thunderstorms, cyclones, etc. He used to get scared of these things. But at the same time he being much smarter than rest of the life used to wonder whats causing this. That was when he assumed all these natural forces to be weapons or forms of a supernatural being. And then 'God' was engraved into everyones mind and passed on for generations.

So its time for us to grow up and think hard whats real and whats not.


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

hyphen said:


> oh yeah, i highly doubt a muslim leader would "hang his head in shame" in front of howevermany people were there. that article is a crock of sh*t.


i guess i'm abit late to respond to this thread..

first things first..hypen..congrads on your knowledge..very well said ..









second..just looking at who posted this,i knew this was a chain-letter..


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> That's because the Devil will give you a gallon of truth and an ounce of poison. It's the ounce of poison that's going to kill you.


That's a good point; I just wonder who was determining what was truth and what was poison.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Fargo said:


> delta said:
> 
> 
> > im guessin ya havent read the forbidden books cuz they contradict other parts of bible and thats why early christians edited the bible id say do more researce
> ...


 There's no dispute concerning Christ-like state.

1Thes:4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That's when we obtain Christ-like perfection.


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## Heartless-Dealer (Aug 3, 2003)

this thread is crazy... people denouncing others religions..

lets just make peace


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Fargo said:


> rchan11 said:
> 
> 
> > That's because the Devil will give you a gallon of truth and an ounce of poison. It's the ounce of poison that's going to kill you.
> ...


 God is able to preserve His Bible, or else He is no God. That's why we use other scriptures to cross reference.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Heartless-Dealer said:


> this thread is crazy... people denouncing others religions..
> 
> lets just make peace


 If you read my posts, I never denounced other religions.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

thats just usin scripture to cover scripture. I have read the rest of the bible and can tell ya there are a lot of things in the banned scripture that is the same yes but when early christians cut it up they didnt just take out certain things it was a wholsale hack and slash anything that didnt meet their beliefs was gone no matter what. i grew up in assembly of gods and southern baptist
churches and if i followed (almost all) the preacers ive met id be beatin my women down cuz the bible says its basically alright cuz you own her. I do believe in one great power but the bible has lotsa flaws.
it has also been proven recently that life can spontaniously happen scientists have taken water and a few organic chemicals freeze it expose it to gamma rays (the same rays commets would encounter in the ort cloud)
and what after 6 months the compounds were acting like life.

wow hyphen when i mention the masons on this site everyone calls me an idiot








and im not tryin to denounce anyones religion simple havin a good debate as all should have the choice of religion


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Jesus taught me to love others. If they hunger, I will provide them with food. If they thirst, I'll give them a drink. People that hate me or disagree with me, if they need help, I'll be the 1st one there.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Delta,

You need to know the Bible yourself. Don't listen to me or others, as it is written.

Eph:5:28: So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loves his wife lives himself.

You wouldn't beat up on yourself, would you?


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

i personally think your one of the few true christians rchan11 and respect ya for it i just disagree

i have read the bible and in one part it says she is yours or somethin to that extent (i just cant remember verses like i useto)


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

yeah, rchan, you're a good man. even if your beliefs do change, hopefully your morals won't.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

hyphen said:


> yeah, rchan, you're a good man. even if your beliefs do change, hopefully your morals won't.


 I'm trying my hardest not to change.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

delta said:


> i personally think your one of the few true christians rchan11 and respect ya for it i just disagree
> 
> i have read the bible and in one part it says she is yours or somethin to that extent (i just cant remember verses like i useto)


Some part of the Bible do have "grey" areas, that's why you need to cross reference to other parts. The best question to ask yourself is " would Jesus do it?"


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

that be good rchan11. I will admit i have a pretty weird take on it but i do think the bible was written by god but man got his hands on it and screwed it up. Im not gonna go into my personall beliefs on god cuz you all will say im crazy

ive got kinda a funny joke about wwjd but you prob wouldnt find funny it was actually on john boy and billy


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Eph 5 is loaded with references to love your wife.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

yeah thats the prob i have with current bibble to many contradictions
i dont think it was that bad in early christian society
im just sayin man got his hand on and screwed it up
boy i can tell you know the bibble though highly commendable

please dont get riled up im just havin a debate with ya and i must say its a good one


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

2Pt:1:21:For the prophecy came not in old time by the wil of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

God will not let Satan corrupt His Bible.

Enjoyed talking to you Delta and others.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

so why didnt they just cut out the bad and leave what was consistent with rest of bibble? thats what doesnt make sence to me but i think youll have a scripture for that . info


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

They did. It's called the King James Bible. All others came after the KJB. That's Satan's way to pollute the truth. Read the history of the KJB and how it was translated, very interesting.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

To really study the Bible, you'll need to get yourself a Hebrew and Greek dictionary to get to the root word for more define meaning.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

why did they cut out the entire book of mary? most of it agrees with the rest of bibble

wow special accolades for goin that far rchan


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

I've not read the book of Mary to comment on that. But all 66 books of the Bible were cross referenced several times over for compatiblity. If you just leave out "virgin" in virgin birth of Christ, you're taking away the deity of Christ. Another example, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. If you leave out "begotten", you're also taking away His deity and making Him equal to us. One word can change everything. Lake of truth and ounce of poison.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

I'm at work and don't have all my "tools" to research correctly.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

the book of mary agreed with the virgin birth what got it banned was she be jesus wife and that was only a couple of scriptures. mary magdeline not mother mary

no prob ive rarely met someone as informed as you
and its been years since ive read the bible or debated this kinda thing so i rusty
i read the book of mary after i read the devinci code so i remember it a lot better


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

delta said:


> the book of mary agreed with the virgin birth what got it banned was she be jesus wife and that was only a couple of scriptures. mary magdeline not mother mary


 There's no mention of such in all the books of the Bible. That's why it was banned.
For the Gospel must be in harmony with each other.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

it was in the bible until 3rd century


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

The Bible was not put together until the 1500's by Tyndale. He was the one translated the Hebrew and Greek into English. During the 3rd centry, those were just manuscripts.


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## BAMBINO (May 29, 2004)

> I disagree
> he is not god
> He is god's son, he even says so himself and its clearly stated in the bible


exactly. but, he, (Jesus) is doing our Fathers work. tryining to bring us back together. for the reason that God The Father cannont be in the pressence of anything imperfect. or we would problly shrivel up into iotas.







for the fact that his voice commands the very elements everything is composed of.
the reason Christ was here is to attone for our sins. because if he did not, none of us would be able to return to our creator because of the snares and temptations we all face. like ive said before- life is a choice so choose well my brethren.









there is still so much that can be said that never will be.









anyways the 3 parts to the God head.
-Our Father
-His Son
-and The Holy Ghost.

yeah *braveheart* ive answered your question before. it went like this;

NO i am not "MORMON" - i am LDS. so if you know whats up, yeah youll know whats up.







its cool bro.

*braveheart* are you MORMON?







or LDS?

anyways peace dude. i love the fist post. it really makes me proud to believe in the only truthful gospel upon the face of the Earth.


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## bigred (Nov 13, 2003)

i was brought up with both the kron and bible. some off u make good pionts but the others dont have a clue. if u haven't read them ushould say sh*t at all.

it dosen't matter what u read beacuse u will take it how u want to c it in ur hart and mind. both books are very close in there teachings. and not all muslims are cry'n jihad.

the ones that do are the same as those *********** groups. that use the bible in there teachings they c it 4 what they want to

WHY !!!!!!!!!!!!

Because even thow they are a sorce of good faith it can also be a sorce of evil to reach otu its hand of power.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

King James went a step further. He gathered 50 latin and greek scholars as well as men of God to form teams to translate different manuscripts. They prayfully asked God's guidance to translate the correct ones into the English language.


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## bigred (Nov 13, 2003)

true but it was still translated by man who will always c whatthey want and here what they want. its in are nature. and if i can recal they have proven that there were misstakes in the translation in spots


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

bigred said:


> true but it was still translated by man who will always c whatthey want and here what they want. its in are nature. and if i can recal they have proven that there were misstakes in the translation in spots


 My God is able to preserve His Book.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

yeah ive actually got a copy of the kron comin and want to read it
from what i understand the kran,the bible, and the dead sea scrolls are all pretty close in a lot of respects
i think islam is a peacful religion cuz i know somewher in there it says jihad should only be used for and when. i dont remember but there were only a few sit's where jihad was acceptable
i tottaly agrea the king james version is prob the most thought over edition when it was made

man bambino im glad im not the only one called an idiot on this site

i think we tottaly derailed this thread but oh well it was up for two days prev


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

I don't have my references with me, but there're tons of errors in the kron, including the earth is a square and sits on a pole. Islam is a bloody religion. Mohammad killed and conquered the middle east and forced his religion on others. The context of this post is correct. Do some research on Islam and you'll see.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

i saw a show on discovery channel about the kran and there were less than a dozen reasons to jihad and christians did same thing more than once (crusades)

but yes there are a lot of probs with kran i just want to read it for my own to find out


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

www.answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/

Do a google search on errors of koran and you'll find a ton of sites.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

id also like to read ancient indian texts


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

I don't follow the Bible or Christianity blindly, I've done research on all the popular religions. My eternity depends on it.


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## BAMBINO (May 29, 2004)

> i think islam is a peacful religion


yeah i agree when they arent freakin killing in findels!!!








dude they are crazy.

i wonder what my religion would be like if i was told by some book to kill people who dont have the same beliefs as i do...









hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...







- that is very controversial.

i dont think so. - ill just stick to protecting myself from a jihad attack. freedom is; our freedom to believe. i will not let it be infringed.

- you mess with you get dealt with.









later i go to schlaffe. schuSS

oh BRAVEHEART ANSWER THE QUESTION I ASKED YOU.


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## BAMBINO (May 29, 2004)

> id also like to read ancient indian texts


there is one, it is called " The Book Of Mormon." - indians derived from the lamanites. along with every one that is native to the americas north and south.

- peace.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

i can tell ya have but didnt the crusades go somethn like this (please correct me if im wrong)
christians crusaded, muslims took it back, then christians crusaded again

If your gettin this scripture from memmory i know you have more than studied the bible


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

From The Holy Koran

IV.138: Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the right way.

IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

IV.92: And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave , and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a covenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

i wasnt talkin book of mormon BAMBINO i was talkin about ancient indian texts from india they are thousands of years older than kran. i really dont agree with the mormon religion

interesting rchan thats why i want to read the whole thing i like you dont take things at face value and like to dig for the info especially when i see it on tv


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

XVI.8: It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you (again return to disobedience) We too will return (to punishment), and We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers.

II.161: Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;

IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.

IV.76: Those who believe fight in the cause of God.

IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.

VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

where ya get that about kran id like to check out more tommorow


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

www.answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

this thread has gotten out of controle..

Religion was "invented" to govern man.. it was a step Needed to move up in the path to civilization.. without religion we would probably still be acting like neanderthalis. It was used to get us "started"... but now it needs to stop.. we are past the point in civilization.. there is no more use for this bullshit. its out of controle. people are extreme about their BULL sh*t beliefs now.. People are killing other people because of some fairytail created to get men to accept rules.

I lose respect for shmucks who believe in god.. how stupid can you be? Why? why would you believe in something so f*cking stupid? ill tell you why.. your a moron who cant handle the idea of death being "blank".. you cant handle thinking about the "blank" after death.. it scares you... so, instead, you make your self believe in some stupid bullshit to keep you sleeping at night, and acting "Moral"..

the PROBLEM with no religion is we wont have a system of right or wrong... I will credit the fairytails for 1 thing.. thats keeping people some what moral. but i feel we are high enough on the ladder to ditch the religion and still be moral and have standards.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> I don't follow the Bible or Christianity blindly, I've done research on all the popular religions. My eternity depends on it.


 yes you do... there are no answeres with religion you dipshit.. only Faith...

faith is bullshit and i have no respect for shmucks who say "i have faith!"..

if there is answeres, tell me...

HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE IS A DEVIL???
HOW DO YOU KNOW GOD EXISTS?
HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE IS A HEAVIN?

you cannot answere those without the word faith..

enough said..

*FTC*


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## darkness (Feb 14, 2004)

I agree. in my opinion, there is no God. God does not exist. and thats all there is to it. I am my own person, i can do what i like, i do not have to follow rules set by "God", because there never was, and never will be such a thing as God. people who blindly follow the bible allow the machine that is the church turn them into robots, to control as they wish. The church being involved with polotics is the most stupid thing i have heard, because all their beleifs and desicions are based on the false scriptures of a made up being. 
President Bush has said that he would not consider Atheists as true Americans, so i am thankful that i live in a freeer country, where i am more accepted. 
I have heard of christians trying to "save", non christians, by converting them, but that is useless, because you have to accept that i do not beleive your "god" exists. I do not want to be saved, i want to live my life as i am atm, and i am doing fine.

Accept that when you die, your body will rot, and that is the end. You will not go to heaven, you will not go to hell. There is no such thing as the soul, when your lights go out, that is it. no more you. it might be depressing, but imo, its the truth.


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## darkness (Feb 14, 2004)

FTC


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

darkness said:


> I agree. in my opinion, there is no God. God does not exist. and thats all there is to it. I am my own person, i can do what i like, i do not have to follow rules set by "God", because there never was, and never will be such a thing as God. people who blindly follow the bible allow the machine that is the church turn them into robots, to control as they wish. The church being involved with polotics is the most stupid thing i have heard, because all their beleifs and desicions are based on the false scriptures of a made up being.
> President Bush has said that he would not consider Atheists as true Americans, so i am thankful that i live in a freeer country, where i am more accepted.
> I have heard of christians trying to "save", non christians, by converting them, but that is useless, because you have to accept that i do not beleive your "god" exists. I do not want to be saved, i want to live my life as i am atm, and i am doing fine.
> 
> Accept that when you die, your body will rot, and that is the end. You will not go to heaven, you will not go to hell. There is no such thing as the soul, when your lights go out, that is it. no more you. it might be depressing, but imo, its the truth.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

darkness said:


> FTC


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

Peacock said:


> this thread has gotten out of controle..
> 
> Religion was "invented" to govern man.. it was a step Needed to move up in the path to civilization.. without religion we would probably still be acting like neanderthalis. It was used to get us "started"... but now it needs to stop.. we are past the point in civilization.. there is no more use for this bullshit. its out of controle. people are extreme about their BULL sh*t beliefs now.. People are killing other people because of some fairytail created to get men to accept rules.
> 
> ...


 Peacock, you're correct in the sense that man needed ethical and spiritual codes to prevent him from acting out on his primitive instincts. This is probably how the institutiuon of law came into effect as well.

Also, organized religion served an important purpose up until recently, since life was brutal and harsh, and people needed to think beyond old age, disease, and death.

It is man's instinct, even in modern times, to create myths about the mysteries of life. It is everyone's right to believe as they will, and your disbelief in God represents your right to think freely. You can't bash anothere's religion though unless he's using it to harm you. If you bash someone's beliefs, you're just as bad as those who try to convert you.


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## PygoManiac (Jul 26, 2004)

> Accept that when you die, your body will rot, and that is the end. You will not go to heaven, you will not go to hell. There is no such thing as the soul, when your lights go out, that is it. no more you. it might be depressing, but imo, its the truth.


Truth spoken.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Fargo said:


> Peacock said:
> 
> 
> > this thread has gotten out of controle..
> ...


 im trying to help people open their eyes.. and notice there is no god..

if im a bad person, then so be it.. because in the real world.. there is no right or wrong.. its all just opinion.


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## PygoManiac (Jul 26, 2004)

Fargo said:


> Peacock said:
> 
> 
> > this thread has gotten out of controle..
> ...


Humans have reached a point where we dont need an unjustified set of rules and axioms to make us feel better about life and death. Reality has to be dealt with rationally and honestly. We dont need to have an imaginary idol for inspiration. Imo this is nothing like conversion, because it is like getting close to reality, the next step . Conversion is just a set of phony rituals and change of 'belief' from one religion to another, which itself is like stepping sideways on the same rung of the ladder.

Great thread.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

delta said:


> i can tell ya have but didnt the crusades go somethn like this (please correct me if im wrong)
> christians crusaded, muslims took it back, then christians crusaded again
> 
> If your gettin this scripture from memmory i know you have more than studied the bible


 there were many crusades.. 7 i believe..

only the first one was successfull..


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

well just to get this back on track, to prove terrorists cant be pacified, look at the stupid french and their hostage "crisis".


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

diddye said:


> well just to get this back on track, to prove terrorists cant be pacified, look at the stupid french and their hostage "crisis".


 you know? enough said..

genocide...


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## User (May 31, 2004)

diddye said:


> well just to get this back on track, to prove terrorists cant be pacified, look at the stupid french and their hostage "crisis".


Thats why they all must die.

America better hope it never gets a true hardcore atheist in office - like the government & church would ever let that happen. Someone like myself won't put up with this muslim sh*t, israeli - palestinian sh*t, all extremist sh*t. Everyone here knows America could solve this sh*t easy if it really wanted to, but there are those in the american government, some in the european government that want this religious sh*t to continue for who knows how long.

C'mon can anyone here honestly tell me that america and europe could not solve these petty unless problems if it wasn't for the zionists and religious nuts in the american and european governments?


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## BraveHeart007 (May 19, 2004)

BAMBINO said:


> > I disagree
> > he is not god
> > He is god's son, he even says so himself and its clearly stated in the bible
> 
> ...


 No iam not mormon.... But as you know Iam opposed to Islam and its teachings. Because its an accepted reality and norm that Islam and its doctrines promote acts terroism and horrible deaths worldwide to innocent men women and children for there own cause Islam....Anyways........

This is not a personal thing against you. Your a cool guy and we agree on alot of things... So know that......

This has to do with the organization called LDS and its doctrines....

Now regarding LDS and doctrines of the LDS concerning the diety of Christ. And making him to be lucifers brother etc is nothing less then a false doctrine. And the idea of someone working up to being little gods and goddess of your own planet etc. And every man can become a god Just like jesus and be at the same level is nothing less then Polytheism.

To also teaching that There are Many Spirits Who Need Bodies to Exist on Earth. Therefore, It is the Duty of Mormons to Have Children so That These Spirits, Can Inhabit Earthly Bodies..

Joseph Smith "The fall of Adam and Eve was a necessary change in order to provide

mortal parroting for the spirit children of God who were ready and
waiting for the experience of earth life"

In Other Words, the Fall of Man Was Not a Terrible Thing But a Wonderful Thing

And Before Adam and Eve Could Have Children, They Had to Sin

That, of Course, Directly Contradicts Scripture, Because God Told Adam and Eve

to "Be Fruitful and Multiply" Both Before and After the Fall of Man This Led to the Support of Polygamy

Ex. Joseph Smith Was Married to Almost 50 Women

Ex. Brigham Young Was Married to 27 Women and Fathered 56 Children

Something to ponder....

BH


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## BAMBINO (May 29, 2004)

> HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE IS A DEVIL???
> HOW DO YOU KNOW GOD EXISTS?
> HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE IS A HEAVIN?
> 
> you cannot answere those without the word faith..


without faith...

- because i know.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

BAMBINO said:


> > HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE IS A DEVIL???
> > HOW DO YOU KNOW GOD EXISTS?
> > HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE IS A HEAVIN?
> >
> ...


 No, you dont know..

THere is no God.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

User said:


> diddye said:
> 
> 
> > well just to get this back on track, to prove terrorists cant be pacified, look at the stupid french and their hostage "crisis".
> ...


 Genocide!!


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

PygoManiac said:


> Humans have reached a point where we dont need an unjustified set of rules and axioms to make us feel better about life and death. Reality has to be dealt with rationally and honestly. We dont need to have an imaginary idol for inspiration. Imo this is nothing like conversion, because it is like getting close to reality, the next step . Conversion is just a set of phony rituals and change of 'belief' from one religion to another, which itself is like stepping sideways on the same rung of the ladder.


 Rationalism, believe it or not, is also a mythological interpretation of reality that parallels the rise of scientific thought since the Rennaissance. Everyone who hails their belief system as the answer normally refers to it as the end-all in human evolution. The point is that why we're here, how we should live, and where we end up - and every othere deeper purpose - remains a mystery in this life. If you think you're interpretaion displaces all others, you fall into the same trap as the false preachers who think they know what's best for everyone.

BTW, everyone who claims Jihad is only violent at the extreme seems to ignore the acts of Mohammed that have been posted numerous times in numerous threads.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

User said:


> diddye said:
> 
> 
> > well just to get this back on track, to prove terrorists cant be pacified, look at the stupid french and their hostage "crisis".
> ...


 Those Zionists, ....Watch out!! Someone on this forum needs to research the major corporate players in the middle east and what their interests really are, since it's money, power, and security(not religion) that ultimately drives American and European foreign policy. It's not about any conspiracy IMO but more about whose pockets are lined.


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## pats&theoverfor... (Jul 28, 2004)

listen, religions roots lie in the inability of the early **** sapien being unable to understand thunder and lightning. simple as that. it grew to be a structure with which children and heirarchy of power could be built with stability and positivity. it rotted in absolute power corrupting absolutely. today, i'd still punch a rams fan in the grill if they said the pats weren't the greatest foot ball team ever. it's all where you're from and what you're taught. not who may have been or are now. as far as specific beleifs and accuracy, to each his own cuz it is theirs.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

pats&theoverfor... said:


> listen, religions roots lie in the inability of the early **** sapien being unable to understand thunder and lightning. simple as that. it grew to be a structure with which children and heirarchy of power could be built with stability and positivity. it rotted in absolute power corrupting absolutely. today, i'd still punch a rams fan in the grill if they said the pats weren't the greatest foot ball team ever. it's all where you're from and what you're taught. not who may have been or are now. as far as specific beleifs and accuracy, to each his own cuz it is theirs.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Fargo said:


> PygoManiac said:
> 
> 
> > Humans have reached a point where we dont need an unjustified set of rules and axioms to make us feel better about life and death. Reality has to be dealt with rationally and honestly. We dont need to have an imaginary idol for inspiration. Imo this is nothing like conversion, because it is like getting close to reality, the next step . Conversion is just a set of phony rituals and change of 'belief' from one religion to another, which itself is like stepping sideways on the same rung of the ladder.
> ...


 umm.. wtf dude.. they have no correlation between them. are you sugesting Scientific reason and Rationalization are mythilogical, imaginary?


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Fargo said:


> User said:
> 
> 
> > diddye said:
> ...


 C'mon man, you know zionists play a major role in this sh*t.


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## MistaFishPimp05 (Jul 28, 2004)

> brave heart...
> 
> - very very good post.
> 
> ...

















couldn't have put it better myself


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

User said:


> Fargo said:
> 
> 
> > User said:
> ...


 there are soo many f*cking sides.. its sooo f*cking complex..

Peacocks solution- elect me, and America will never have to worry again!!!


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Peacock said:


> User said:
> 
> 
> > Fargo said:
> ...


Yep, true, I know its not all zionists, its money, and more sh*t I dont care about. ect.

I'm not f*cking with anyone though, I would not put up with this sh*t.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

id vote for ya peacock just for the fact i think youd fix the cj system in this country


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

delta said:


> id vote for ya peacock just for the fact i think youd fix the cj system in this country


 The Criminal Justice System would be taken care of..


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## Revolt (Jun 26, 2004)

Muslims would sh*t of there was an american terrorist group headed for mecca. I would advise the french to sh*t as well because they would be next.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Revolt said:


> Muslims would sh*t of there was an american terrorist group headed for mecca. I would advise the french to sh*t as well because they would be next.


 you know.. enough about this..

just take all over them out.. if you believe in some stupid bullshit, that says "ou need to kill those who dont believe in our bullshit" , you need to die..

i dont care if you havent killed anyone..


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## BAMBINO (May 29, 2004)

> No, you dont know..
> 
> THere is no God.


how about the holy ghost then? whats your opinion about that?

also peackock if there was no God why do you evevn care that i believe? are you going to save me from something?

well peacock, if you ever told me how to think in person, id pistol whip your ass and have 4CM hold you down while i pistol whip you. then id tie you up and throw you in a dumpster in an ally sunday night so the garbage man would smash your ass in the morning, toss you out like the ignant worthless peice of trash you are.
f--k you.

DO NOT EVER TELL ME THAT I DO NOT KNOW.









i do not tell you that you dont know, so dont tell me i dont.

you gave your opinion, let us give ours. -


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## User (May 31, 2004)

BAMBINO said:


> > No, you dont know..
> >
> > THere is no God.
> 
> ...


 Well damn.


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

ive got the ultimate fix for the middle east
just let isreal have it all prob fixed then we elect peacock pres to fix sh*t over here
its gettin kinda nasty in this thread
im not slammin here but some of you who are claimin to be christian are promotin a lot of violence (kinda sounds terroristic to my)
i thought the christian religion was peaceful but again im proven wrong

im not a christian but i do believe in some of its teachings SOME


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## BAMBINO (May 29, 2004)

> some of you who are claimin to be christian are promotin a lot of violence (kinda sounds terroristic to my)
> i thought the christian religion was peaceful but again im proven wrong


if by some of you you meant me, - yes i am a violent person in some ways.- i do not represent all christians. i represent myself.

like i have said before i am not violent unless attacked, deffensive offense is how i am and always will be. protect myself and my family.

similar to something said in the past - "dont tread on me."


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## delta (Jul 23, 2004)

im also very deffensive if its a relevant attack and do everything to stop the attack so i know where ya commin from. It wasnt dirrected at you specifically just a gen statement and i believe ya got a right to defend yourself. i just think threats are worthless and dont really belong. If truly threatened ya dont say anything ya just act. please dont feal it was directed specifically at you but you said if someone express there opinion standing next to ya youd do this and thats not right. jesus himself taught tollerance
an opinion is not a threat


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## BAMBINO (May 29, 2004)

> please dont feal it was directed specifically at you but you said if someone express there opinion standing next to ya youd do this and thats not right. jesus himself taught tollerance
> an opinion is not a threat


i was exaderating a bit.:laugh: 
but no, his opinion was not expressed he said this...



> No, you dont know..
> 
> THere is no God.


- i will not be told what to accept. 
there he is speaking for me. and THAT is disrespect.
-
i respect people who respect me.

jesus did teach tolerance. - but tolerance does not mean; to accept the wrong.

EVIL PREVAILS WHEN GOOD MEN DO NOTHING. so i will do something, - so my family can live in peace.

that is why i am the way that i am.


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## Jebus (Feb 29, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> The world is in bad shape. Look at all the terrorism that's happening all over the globe. It's by the grace of God that America is a Godly nation and is by America that the evil doers are in check.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

the existence of good and evil does not prove the existence of god and satan. there can be good without religion. i believe the humans are [or should be] reaching a heightened state of reason. where we don't need to rely on religion to keep our instincts in check.


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## micus (Jan 7, 2004)

BAMBINO said:


> > No, you dont know..
> >
> > THere is no God.
> 
> ...


 watch out peacock , big rough and tough mafia man is commin for yah,

bambino u are redicoulous sometimes,

u are an ass hat,

sit down,

step away from the computer and go play big time mafia tough guy with your little buddies,


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## micus (Jan 7, 2004)

Jebus said:


> rchan11 said:
> 
> 
> > The world is in bad shape. Look at all the terrorism that's happening all over the globe. It's by the grace of God that America is a Godly nation and is by America that the evil doers are in check.


 its by the grace of god i didnt have a heartatack from laughing at u so much,

u are rediculous,


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

come on guys. it's one thing to debate based on each other's beliefs, but it's another to criticize or mock someone because of their beliefs. let's keep it at a civil level.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

BAMBINO said:


> > No, you dont know..
> >
> > THere is no God.
> 
> ...


 Holy ghost?

dont get me started on that bull sh*t about the trinity..

why do i care? because, i have something against religion.. deep down, im troubled by this Bullshit fairytail used to controle man.. i have a personal Hate agianst it..


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

BAMBINO said:


> > please dont feal it was directed specifically at you but you said if someone express there opinion standing next to ya youd do this and thats not right. jesus himself taught tollerance
> > an opinion is not a threat
> 
> 
> ...


im not telling you what to accept.. im telling you what is true and what is false.. its your decision to decide if you want to be a dumb-ass sheep, or an inteligent person who accepts the fact there is no god..

what teh f*ck are you talking about? evil? good men? dude... we are talking about religion.. not protecting your home from robbers..


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

micus said:


> BAMBINO said:
> 
> 
> > > No, you dont know..
> ...


 hes just angery because he cant prove his little bullshit fairytail is true without the word FAITH..

HAHAHA MUST SUCK TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING THAT DOES NOT EXISTS!!!!!!


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

hyphen said:


> the existence of good and evil does not prove the existence of god and satan. there can be good without religion. i believe the humans are [or should be] reaching a heightened state of reason. where we don't need to rely on religion to keep our instincts in check.


 Agreed!!!!!!!!!!!


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## PygoManiac (Jul 26, 2004)

If we were to evaluate the trulyreligious population of the earth in the past 10 or 20 centuries statistically, we would see that mostly it has decreased. This has happened because science has given answers to so many mysteries that we used to link with god. science will eventually provide an explanation for everything.

Q. Why are we here?
A. We are human beings, we are here to live temporarily, our ultimate goal is to prevent our species from extinction.

Q. Where are we from?
A. We have evolved from primates, which evolved from mammals. and continue to evolve. We have ultimately evolved from a single cellular organism, which evolved from something else before life.

Q. Where are we going?
A. We all are going to die.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

PygoManiac said:


> Q. Where are we going?
> A. We all are going to die.


 this is why religion was created..

to help weak-minded people sleep at night..


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## darkness (Feb 14, 2004)

at least some people on this site are not robots. peacock, pygomaniac, you have the right idea. i have people come up to me in the street trying to convert me, but i hav not tried to convert them, or done anything to them. i dont see any non-chrstians in the street trying to convert christians away from the machine.....

FTC


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## PygoManiac (Jul 26, 2004)

I dont understand how can human beings be so weak that they have to have faith in God to live.







People should start having faith in themselves. Glad to know that a few people over here agree with me.


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## BAMBINO (May 29, 2004)

you guys make me laugh.









oh and peacock... cool that you hate religion and all- thats cool. do your thing ill do mine. so do me a favor and stop caring that i *know* something is true.


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## BraveHeart007 (May 19, 2004)

Revolt said:


> Muslims would sh*t of there was an american terrorist group headed for mecca. I would advise the french to sh*t as well because they would be next.


Thats brilliant!!!!......

Lets wait till Ramadon while there dancing and flailing around the pillars in Mecca. Then when they start to chant America the Great Satan,, Well get 4-5 747's load em with barrels of pig guts and lots of explosives. And well fly right into them as we parachute out....LMAO


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## BraveHeart007 (May 19, 2004)

scrubbs said:


> i read al jazeera


While your jacking off..........

Thats interesting I use the Al Jazeera newspaper to pick up my dogs sh*t while i take him out for a walk....It works quite well......


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

Peacock said:


> PygoManiac said:
> 
> 
> > Q. Where are we going?
> ...


 yes. in ancient times people lived very short lives. most didn't make it past the age of 40 [although the bible claims that people lived for hundreds of years...but then again, the bible also claimed that jesus fed a gajillion people with a loaf of bread]. fear of death spawned the most reasonable cure for the ailment...heaven. humans have always feared the unknown, and even now we do. though, we're a bit more curious than scared.

it's like walking into a dark room that you know nothing about. you don't know what's there, you've never been in it, you don't know what might jump out and grab you. you fear because you don't know. so is the way humans. religion was just a way to fool ourselves into "knowing" what will happen.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

BraveHeart007 said:


> Revolt said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims would sh*t of there was an american terrorist group headed for mecca. I would advise the french to sh*t as well because they would be next.
> ...


 LOOOOOOOLLL


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

hyphen said:


> Peacock said:
> 
> 
> > PygoManiac said:
> ...


 BINGO!!

"man fears what he does not understand"..


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## Bluegill (Nov 28, 2003)

I believe that someone once said "Religion, an opiate for the masses" Apparently, Karl Marx got onething right.


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## aaron07_20 (Apr 23, 2004)

Peacock said:


> BAMBINO said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus Christ is not god though.
> ...


 If some of you people don't know, this here is the retard that believes in aliens..


----------



## aaron07_20 (Apr 23, 2004)

darkness said:


> President Bush has said that he would not consider Atheists as true Americans, so i am thankful that i live in a freeer country, where i am more accepted.
> the truth.


 I doubt he said that, any president that would say something like that definately doesn't deserve to be a president. I don't think he should be president but I definately don't think he said that..prove that he said it...


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## darkness (Feb 14, 2004)

Read this:

Bush Quote and Atheist Pages

my apologies, it was the other Bush that is quoted (sr. ??). but it still shows the same view.

Great Site to refer to when discussions like this arise.

George H.W. Bush, as Presidential Nominee for the Republican party; 1987-AUG-27:

"No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."


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## darkness (Feb 14, 2004)

Chief spokesman for National office of the Boy Scouts:

"...once a person admits to not believing in God, this raises the question of whether or not that person believes in America..."


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

not beleiving in god is not beleiving one exists. theres no way in hell the universe exists like it does without a creator, its impossible.


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## darkness (Feb 14, 2004)

it is not impossible.


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

it is so


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## darkness (Feb 14, 2004)

it is so not


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

is so!! lol


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## darkness (Feb 14, 2004)

ah... i give up for now. lets drink.


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

I WIN 







lol


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## darkness (Feb 14, 2004)

u so do not


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

i do so


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Markosaur said:


> not beleiving in god is not beleiving one exists. theres no way in hell the universe exists like it does without a creator, its impossible.


----------

