# temperement



## tikbalang (Mar 13, 2003)

is the temperement of rbp associated with the way you trained if for food?

i know you can trained it to eat flakes, i'm planning when i get mine to feed on superworm and crickets.

i suspect that rbp will be calm with other fishes (ex. cichlids) if they are trained to eat that kind of food instead of life feeder fish.

any comments?


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## red devils red (Mar 12, 2003)

WHEN THOSE REDS GET BIGGER THAN THE CICHS WATCH OUT,THEY'LL END UP DINNER IN NO TIME.YOU FEED THEM FLAKES WHEN THEIR SMALL,AS THEY GET BIGGER THEY'LL EAT WHAT THEY WANT WHEN THEY WANT! HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF A VEGETERIAN PIRANHA? ANYWAY DEPENDING ON WHAT TYPE OF CICHLID YOU'LL HAVE SOME OF THOSE CICHS ARE VERY AGGREESIVE,BUT JUST REMEMBER THOSE PIRANHA HAVE SHARP&POWERFULL TEETH. PIRANHA WILL EAT ALMOST ANYTHING, JUST DONT FEED THEM FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS AND SEE WHAT WILL HAPPEN. HOPES THIS SHEDS SOME LIGHT ON THE SUBJECT.


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## tikbalang (Mar 13, 2003)

from what i heard and read, 80% of the piranha family are vegetarians. they used their teeth to cut hard shell of nuts and others.

there are cichlids that can match the size of rbp (around 12in), the problem is piranha has sharp teeths.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

The aggressiveness of piranha is largely dependent on the species and the individual fish. People say starving the fish makes them meaner but this is simply them being ravenous. I dont suggest doing this. I dont think you can "train" the rbp to not eat its tankmates. It all depends on the situation. The main 2 determinants for this are that you keep it well fed and get the tankmate at a bigger size than the p's. Even then there are no guarantees.

Boy Im tired....


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> from what i heard and read, 80% of the piranha family are vegetarians. they used their teeth to cut hard shell of nuts and others.


 I'm curious where this information originates from ( I don't totally disagree, but they are not vegetarians in the literal sense).


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## sccavee (Feb 11, 2003)

Ps are like any other animal in that instincts drive them. You can't take the instincts out of animal 100% of the time. Ps are also unpredictable and may leave their tank mates alone for years and then one day the tank mates are gone.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

hastatus said:


> > from what i heard and read, 80% of the piranha family are vegetarians. they used their teeth to cut hard shell of nuts and others.
> 
> 
> I'm curious where this information originates from ( I don't totally disagree, but they are not vegetarians in the literal sense).


 Frank wouldnt it be accurate to think that some P's eat _primarily_ seeds and such simply because it is an abundant source of food wherever they are located? And if offered, they would eat meat as well?

Is this what you mean when you say P's are not vegetarians in the _literal sense_?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I was curious about the 80% because it is not to far from being accurate. But seed eating is not a primary food except for a few species, and even then they eat fish as part of that diet. For example read this and note the alimentary diet of those species as compiled by Antonio Machado-Allison and Fink (1996).

Pirana Feeding.

It is my thought on species like Pygocentrus and Serrasalmus they engage in seed eating as a last resort when other meaty foods are not available during the dry season. It is well documented from belly examinations of S. rhombeus seeds were found in its belly during this season. S. rhombeus as you know primary food is fins when adulthood is reached they eat whole fish. Fin biting occurs with large rhombeus vs large prey fish. The genus Pygocentrus though is largely restricted to eating whole fish, but smaller ones when offered no other food other than seeds will eat it.


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## RHOMKILLA (Feb 22, 2003)

I can't see how you can train a fish to be less aggressive or more tolerable of tank mates. It's instincts will supercede anything you might of thought as a training process.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> It's instincts will supercede anything you might of thought as a training process.


 Well thought out point and most accurate.


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## tikbalang (Mar 13, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > from what i heard and read, 80% of the piranha family are vegetarians. they used their teeth to cut hard shell of nuts and others.
> 
> 
> I'm curious where this information originates from ( I don't totally disagree, but they are not vegetarians in the literal sense).


 well i may be wrong.

i got the idea that 80% out of 35 piranha spicies are vegetarian from a movie clips downloaded. 5 out of the 20% are a real treat to man.

well, i still have so much to learn, just fill me in.


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## SnowCichlid. (Jan 10, 2003)

red devils red said:


> WHEN THOSE REDS GET BIGGER THAN THE CICHS WATCH...


 please no caplocks next time








...Piranhas are scavengers and will eat what is available... depending on the species, to try to answer the delima there somewaht...
...I have read articles where it has been observed that feeding P's high in vegtalbes like benas etc... is a very good diet and also calms them down as well


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

tikbalang said:


> i got the idea that 80% out of 35 piranha spicies are vegetarian from a movie clips downloaded. 5 out of the 20% are a real treat to man.
> 
> *well, i still have so much to learn, just fill me in.*


Okidoki,

*=>* I believe only three species are actaully considered (potentially) dangerous to man, as in able to kill a man, and those are the three pygocentrus species.
A huge, but solitary serrasalmus for sure could deliver a very painful and devastating bite, but not fatal in the sense of attacking and killing a prey...


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

really they are all dangerous to man, all of them can bite and severe and artery and you could bleed to death, but the reason Pygos are soo much more dangerous is that they live in large shoals, so if you get attack chances are its by many of them not just one


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> i got the idea that 80% out of 35 piranha spicies are vegetarian from a movie clips downloaded. 5 out of the 20% are a real treat to man.


 Can appreciate that view, but presently the number is closer to 60 species now. The genus Pygocentrus are considered potentially dangerous to man because of their primary food source which is whole fish and throughout history much mention of their reputation to attack humans. Now we know that those historical records are largely based on exaggeration of the situation and their feeding of dead corpses (SAZIMA, 1977). Many of todays reported cases of Pygocentrus bites are attributed to mis-handling the fish after catching it and of course areas where they have been conditioned to eat entrails from cleaned fish along the banks. Entering those waters would likely encourage an attack. Richard Conniff (who visited my home some time ago for filming National Geographic special) and I talked much about the history of the pirana and he asked if I thought piranas were always dangerous. I told him yes, especially if they are flopping around or if conditioned by localized feeding. I gave him the example of the birds falling into the water in specific localities of the Orinoco during the dry season. That would encourage pirana attacks. And to illustrate a point, I fed some flake food to guppy's and showed him what conditioned response was.

A year or two after we disscussed this he went to Venezuela and actually was present when a little boy and girl were fishing and the girl fell in the water where fishermen regularly cleaned fishes. She was immediately attacked by piranas and her brother got her out. Severely bitten and might had been worse had (as earlier mentioned in a post) an artery been sliced.

Of course, Richard did not go to the water to see what specific species of pirana was in there, but it was assumed to be a Pygocentrus.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

The shows on the discovery channel I have seen try to act like attacks never happen, I read in the Guiness book of world records several years back that on Sept 19, 1981 many people were killed when a tourist boat sank somewhere in the amazon, have you ever heard that being true Frank?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> I read in the Guiness book of world records several years back that on Sept 19, 1981 many people were killed when a tourist boat sank somewhere in the amazon, have you ever heard that being true Frank?


 About the boat sinking yes. About people being killed by piranas? Long since discounted by authorities and reputable scientists. But people will always believe what they want to believe.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I was just thinking since it was in Guiness book it may be true, but guess not, reason I remembered it was that it was on the day I was born


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Check your sources next time. Guiness is not a scientific journal nor used by science to determine anything.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> really they are all dangerous to man, all of them can bite and severe and artery and you could bleed to death, but the reason Pygos are soo much more dangerous is that they live in large shoals, so if you get attack chances are its by many of them not just one


 I see what you mean, but this reasoning would make almost any creature with teeth or somewhat sharp claws potentially deadly creatures, since all of them could slice or bite through an artery as well... I think that's a bit overdone...

I said only pygo's were potentially dangerous because, like you said, they live in large shoals, and are able to take down quite large animals (including mamals and humans) if hungry enough. This makes them potentially dangerous to man.
I doubt this is also the case for serrasalmus species (and so, in my opinion and my way of reasoning [see above], those aren't potentially dangerous)...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> I doubt this is also the case for serrasalmus species


 Judazz you are fairly accurate, but I divert your attention to those much mentioned videos and movies of pirana attacks. What other species is in there feeding besides Pygocentrus? Cichlids, common tetras and an occasional Serrasalmus among other non-pirana species. I might add, you are correct, no species outside of Pygocentrus has ever been recorded attacking humans, unlike those in Pygocentrus.


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## tikbalang (Mar 13, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > Many of todays reported cases of Pygocentrus bites are attributed to mis-handling the fish after catching it and of course areas where they have been conditioned to eat entrails from cleaned fish along the banks.
> >
> > I told him yes, especially if they are flopping around or if conditioned by localized feeding.
> 
> ...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> what do you mean by conditioning? is that the one i mention training rbp to eat flakes, cricket, superworm rather than live feeder fish that promote wild chase?


An excerpt from Pavlov Historical record:

_In 1903 Pavlov published his results calling this a "conditioned reflex," different from an innate reflex, such as yanking a hand back from a flame, in that it had to be learned. Pavlov called this learning process (in which the dog's nervous system comes to associate the bell with the food, for example) "conditioning." He also found that the conditioned reflex will be repressed if the stimulus proves "wrong" too often. If the bell rings repeatedly and no food appears, eventually the dog stops salivating at the bell. _


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## tikbalang (Mar 13, 2003)

ok got it....

so its a possibility that piranha can be train.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> so its a possibility that piranha can be train.


 To eat at a certain spot in your aquario? yes. As for suggesting any other kind of training, don't know, just don't be foolish and try to finger feed food directly to this fishes mouth. They don't know the difference.


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## tikbalang (Mar 13, 2003)

nice to hear that.

i better get a small shaol of 1in rbp.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

tikbalang said:


> so its a possibility that piranha can be train.


 What do you want them to do: burp the national anthem
















But conditioning them isn't that hard, as long as you keep repaeting the same thing over and over again.
I feed my reds always at the same moment of the day (between 9 and 10 pm) and somehow, they seem to be getting more restless between 8:30 and 9 pm. And every time I walk by the tank, they swim up to the surface, in the middle of the tank (where I drop in the food), so they can be "taught" simple things.


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## bozley (Mar 12, 2003)

Just to throw something out there. RBP's have a shy nature. The last group that I had were shy at first, but ala Judazz, when you feed them everyday, as opposed to every few, and/or put them in a high traffic area they tend to lose that skittishness a bit....granted all have their own personalities. It's like any other pet. Remember though, conditioning does not mean thinking. Bottom line, stay consistent, and you will condition them to do certain things...but instinct rules all. The cichlids in all probabilty will not make it very long, no matter what you do.


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## tikbalang (Mar 13, 2003)

nice info guys...thanx


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