# Ammonia Burns! Help!



## xXLovelyLizardXx

Reading on here seems like Ammonia is a common problem for Piranhas. My boyfriend and I are the new owners of 4 red belly piranhas. The guy who gave them too us kind of dumped them on us with little info on what to really do with them. We did a lot of research ahead of time but still ended up with some pretty sick babies here. When we transported them to their new home the guy who gave them to us forced us to do a 75+% water change and in result 2 out of our 4 have some nasty burns. We consulted the local pet store about how to treat them and they gave us a range of medical chemicals but I"m getting worried about one of our babies. He was pealing before but now the pealing has gotten so bad that you can see the pink flesh under the skin and he has some bad fin rot. 
this is the one we are worried about:









This one isn't as bad but still has some rot and a few splotches on the other side:









chemicals they recommended:









Is there anything else we should or could be doing to help them? We don't want to lose them while we wait for the chemicals to work


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## Ægir

What sized tank and what are you using for filtration?

Did you cycle the tank first or?

Also, get a liquid test kit so you can monitor the water paramiters... Stop adding chemicals (except for water conditioner during water changes) until you do so.


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## xXLovelyLizardXx

its a 30gal(came with the fish), I don't really know what cycling is. We just did what the guy told us which was to slowly add our own water to the original water they had. when we picked up the fish they were in their normal tank with a about 10gal of water at the bottom to transport them in. The guy told us that we should slowly add our water in over the span of a few hours until we reached max water. and to add recommended pH balancer and water conditioner every 10gals added. as for filtration this is what is in the tank(I don't know brand or how old the system is):


























I don't know if any of this helps at all or not. I'm more of a snake person then a fish person. These are my boyfriends Piranhas and the guy we got them from kinda just through the tank in our hands said heres the stuff, have fun. and hasn't contacted us back since

general background info:
We've had the fish since christmas and the pealing/burns just started around sunday or monday.
the guy we got them from says the fish are about 10months old. 
I wasn't home when my boyfriend tested the water with test strips so i'm not 100% sure what the readings were

heres the full tank:


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## Ægir

Report back with the test readings if you would... I would suggest doing a 50% water change, do your best to match the temp and add dechlorinator. You will have to keep up on water changes every other day or even daily until the ammonia and nitrites come down. Cycling is establishing bacteria in the filter that breaks down waste... I would suggest doing some reading on it as its an important part of the tank and how it works. I can provide some links if it makes things easier, but a google search or search here will give you lots of info.

The bad news is you are going to have to purchase a much bigger filter. RBPs are messy fish, and that filter is rated for a 10 gallon guppy tank at best.

I hate adding medications, as they are typically a cover up for the real problem.


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## xXLovelyLizardXx

We were planing on upgrading the tank eventually anyways because we read that a 30gal is a bit small for 4 piranhas, so the filter problem does not come as a big surprise. I will let you know when m boyfriend gets home what the test strip said. and any links of sites that are widely trusted would be much appricaited as we are still learning


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## Ægir

Grabbing dinner and I will post when I get back


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## Ægir

Heres some good reading about cycles and the relation to nitrate, nitrite and ammonia: Beings you have fish already in the tank, you will have to be up on your water changes to keep the ammonia at a safe level... up to 25 or even 50% per day until things balance out.

CLICKY

CLICKY

Its important to understand and also be able to test for the various parameters... test strips are unreliable, so you will want to get a liquid test kit (API Master test kit is affordable / great)

As for the tank upgrade, yes... you will want to do it as soon as possible. I am not a fan of hang on style filters like you have as they dont have much filter media / worth unless you use lots of them. Look into a canister filter, something like the Rena Filstar XP3 or XP4 or a Fluval. They are a little bit of money, but will save you from big problems in the future.


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## xXLovelyLizardXx

I will pass this info onto my boyfriend. Thanks muchly for the advice and help.

one last quick thing, should i separate the one that is in the worst condition? a couple of the others keep charging at him and my best guess is that they assume he'll die soon and be a meal. I probably wouldn't put him in a new tank because i would assume that would shock him too much but I was debating on an in-tank quarantine insert. would it pay to do that or do you think I should just let things play out. He really isn't in good condition


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## Ægir

I would fix the problems, and he should heal quickly... as you said moving to a new tank, without cycled filter media will just be a huge shock

Cannibalism does happen from time to time, but not much you can do about it.


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## Titus

Does are some nasty burns, hope they will pull through, I wish you best of luck !

Listen to Ægir he saved my fish, lot's of "experts" out there, had a guy that made my setup and when things started going nasty I registered here and got all the help I needed and then some ! Do exactly as Ægir says and you'll be fine ! I quickly found out that the fish were the least expensive part of the hobby but don't worry, it's worth it.


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## Colty

Those burns are severe ...

Do a water change and check for the water parameters..

Do a frequent 30% water change till u get a desired reading..

Turn on the filtration to a high effect..Tat too would help u in this..Adding salt would help i think but not sure Egir/ would help you out whether to add salt or not..

And experts like Egir/ would help you to overcome these situations...He helped me too in some tough situations...Anyway good luck !!!


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## xXLovelyLizardXx

Mini update: 
I've now done 2 50% water changes (one yesterday and one today) all 4 are still alive. I've been using our gravel siphon to remove the dirty water and clean it at the same time. That gravel looks like it hadn't been cleaned in a LONG time. like i expected it to be bad but all water that came up from under it was pure black. looks like black coffee almost.
I asked my boyfriend what the test strips said when he tested it yesterday and he said none of the readings were out of the ordinary except water hardness was in the "critical" zone. but as you said the strips are not very accurate. I will be looking into the liquid kit very soon

I am currently looking at a 55gal on craigslist to transition them to once they have recovered and we are budgeting the new filter very soon.

should I be changing the filter pad out do to its size and the current state of my fish? we put in the new one when we got the fish home (around xmas)


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## Ægir

If you EVER clean filter media, you want to use tank water (a bucket during water change and shake it out) as any chlorine or temperature shocks will kill the bacteria. You never want to replace filter pads when you only have one, and stacking (hard to do in some filters) is the best bet until you colonize the new media.

Would still like to know the exact readings of the test... as "out of the ordinary" doesnt narrow much down

Also, 55 gals are a terrible size as they are narrow and tall, look for a 75 or even 90 if that is possible, you wont regret it


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## xXLovelyLizardXx

I ordered the liquid test kid, it won't be here until the 6th. I'm still doing the 50% water changes daily in the meantime and we will probably go out to look at a new bigger filter tomorrow. no bites on 75gal+ tanks yet though but still looking.

I can't tell if my one sick-ling is doing better or worse. His spirits and behavior seem to have improved but the burns look worse


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## Ægir

As much as I hate it, I would follow the suggestions for dosing Melafix and stress coat

Compared to the first pic, things are worse.

When you go shopping for filters, do your best to get a canister of some sort as it will be a benefit when you do find a larger aquarium. If this guy is still alive, you can keep him in the small tank until recovery.


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## Colty

I think it reached a worse part...

Things looking very difficult for him....

Try Melafix and do a 50% water change before adding it..

Increase your filtration power/force...

Tat would help!!!!your fish will be fine


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## xXLovelyLizardXx

Is there anything else aside from ammonia that could be doing this to him? I've been doing everything you guys have said with the water changes and the melafix but he seems to only be getting worse. I don't understand why its just the one. the other 3 are fine (aside from a very minor burn on one of the others that hasn't changed since we got him and i'm beginning to think it's just a scar) I would assume that if the water is the problem the other fish would have started to show signs of the burns too but that one is the only one and he just keeps getting worse.


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## Ægir

Filtration not converting nitrates and ammonia to nitrites?

You never posted water params so its hard for me to say


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## xXLovelyLizardXx

what would cause it to do that? The guy we got them from had them in the same tank with the same small filter for months and never hand a problem. I Don't understand why suddenly just this one is sick after living with us for a week


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## Ægir

You said you replaced the filter media, which means you basically re started the tank...

Chlorine from tap water, cold or hot water, and other things will also kill the bacteria

As the fish are growing, it has prob been building up to this point and inevitable.


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## xXLovelyLizardXx

I just got the liquid test kit in the mail. Here's the results:

I ran pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate. and got this:









pH was really high, ammonia wasn't ideal but wasn't as high as i thought it was going to be, nitrite was zero and nitrate was high.
with the pH being high I went ahead and did the high rang pH test and got this:








I don't know how well you can see the pictures but my best guess on readings would be:

pH: 8-8.2
Ammonia: 0.50 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 80ppm


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## Ægir

Dont be to worried about PH at this point, a stable PH is more important than anything. 7-8.5 is not a huge issue and acceptable.

Ammonia being .5 is an indicator that the cycle is still occurring or hasnt started to fully be converted to nitrites

The fact the nitrates are high indicates lack of filtration / lack of water changes because the tank is cycling still.

I find holding the test tube against a white card or piece of paper in sunlight (some fluorescent or other bulbs can change the color slightly), with the indicator chart beside it helps to get accurate readings... you seem to have it down!

Suggestions would be to upgrade the filter (canister ideally, something you can just move to the new tank) and keep up on daily 25% water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrates down. In the future when you replace media in filters, stack the old stuff behind the new stuff for atleast a week to prevent starting over.


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