# Single Tern



## keithdude5 (Nov 30, 2010)

I have been reading about the aggression levels (I know they differ from fish to fish) and I love the looks of the "Ternetzi"

Would I be able to do a single tern in a 75 gal tank?


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## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

75 would be fine for a single tern.


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## balluupnetme (Oct 23, 2006)

That's more than enough for one tern


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

Yeap, that would be a nice tank for a single "Tern"...


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Whats the full length of an adult tern?

Nevermind

OP-I would read this nice debate though-You can then come to your own conclusion









http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?/topic/167278-how-big-ternetzi/


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## jp80911 (Apr 3, 2008)

75g will be fine for a long time, if it gets to 12"+ maybe upgrade to a 2ft wide tank.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

jp80911 said:


> 75g will be fine for a long time, if it gets to 12"+ maybe upgrade to a 2ft wide tank.


I myself tend to agree with this statement.......


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

True, a huge Tern may need a bigger tank because of your tank footprint, but if yours is a medium sized "Tern" it should work for a loooong while...


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Yeah-
I myself have no experience with this species...I just thought I read they get big....Also have no clue on growth....

I just know my big piraya didn't fair well in a tank with the same footprint(90 gal)-did alot better in a 125 after the 12 inch mark....


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

125g long is good IMO.....


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

AKSkirmish said:


> 75g will be fine for a long time, if it gets to 12"+ maybe upgrade to a 2ft wide tank.


I myself tend to agree with this statement.......
[/quote]
100%... terns supposedly get huge, i have seen some huge terns in person that would not fare well in a 75g.... also if you can grab a 90 you get more water in the same space... meaning less spikes in water quality


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

bob351 said:


> 75g will be fine for a long time, if it gets to 12"+ maybe upgrade to a 2ft wide tank.


I myself tend to agree with this statement.......
[/quote]
100%... *terns supposedly get huge*, i have seen some huge terns in person that would not fare well in a 75g.... also if you can grab a 90 you get more water in the same space... meaning less spikes in water quality
[/quote]

Yup that's what I keep hearing.


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

I have seen some freakishly large terns... well over 12", not saying reds cant get that big


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

bob351 said:


> I have seen some freakishly large terns... well over 12", not saying reds cant get that big


The only sci documented "tern" I have ever heard of was only 10 in. TL


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

well when i went to grab caribes from a fellow member he had a monster tern in the tank that was probably 14" give or take an inch in a 125g tank with these caribes... he was much larger than the caribes witch were all 10-11" some pushing 12" made em look small compared to this beast


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

head to tail measurements on the caribe... not head to base of the tail


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

bob351 said:


> head to tail measurements on the caribe... not head to base of the tail


Eyeball measurment eh? No ruler? I new an old member that swore up and down that his term was 16 in. Of course he measured from the open jaw. But when I corrected the msmt. It was a big fish but only a shade under 13.


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA (Dec 8, 2003)

I have a 10" Tern in a 90 and I feel he is needing more space. This Tern is the most active fish I have ever owned and I have plans of getting him a 180 this summer. When I tear down the tank and set up the new tank I will be sure to get pics and measurements of him. I have seen some picss and videos of some big Terns but mine is the biggest I have seen in person. I feel a 75 or 90 will work but if you get an active fish like mine you will be wanting to get him a bigger tank. I dont have any pics of him on this new computer but will post some on here in a bit.


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

hastatus said:


> head to tail measurements on the caribe... not head to base of the tail


Eyeball measurment eh? No ruler? I new an old member that swore up and down that his term was 16 in. Of course he measured from the open jaw. But when I corrected the msmt. It was a big fish but only a shade under 13.
[/quote]
ruler...

the fish was massive... i sh*t you not lol

don't no if you saw this thread but take a gander at those terns there massive
http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?/topic/199627-big-ternetzi/


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

bob351 said:


> head to tail measurements on the caribe... not head to base of the tail


Eyeball measurment eh? No ruler? I new an old member that swore up and down that his term was 16 in. Of course he measured from the open jaw. But when I corrected the msmt. It was a big fish but only a shade under 13.
[/quote]
ruler...

the fish was massive... i sh*t you not lol

don't no if you saw this thread but take a gander at those terns there massive
http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?/topic/199627-big-ternetzi/
[/quote]
I see some things just go on and on. If you want to believe those are larger than actual recorded be my guest. Doesn't change reality of "eyeball" measuring. So I will say it again. The ternetzi species is not found in Argentina. No matter how many times this species name surfaces a few you just don't get it. Since 2008 this stupid argument has been going on. As of this date not one single dealer, fisherman or hobbyist has produced a single specimen that has exceeded 15 inches. Only opinions not supported by facts or even a ruler.

Josh Smick who originally supported the so-called 16in ternetzi he and George caught later recanted his story. The fish was huge in terms of girth. And that always gives a false impression of length. The fish was just a foot long. Still a large fish but nowhere near 16in!

Do if you want to continue on opinions only, be my guest. But those of you that do understand the science, ternetzi was based on a 10in damaged P nattereri supported by Eigenmann, Norman and Fink.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

And once again, a common name becomes another discussion








IMO the persistant use of the name "ternetzi" made discussions like this impossible. Nomenclatural rules state that the name "ternetzi" is once given to a damaged specimen, and therefor no longer valid for an existing species.
So even íf the southern population of P.nattereri were a distinct species, it could never be called "ternetzi".

It's a very unfortunate chosen common name...


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## MFNRyan (Mar 27, 2011)

Frank, 
Did you look at the pictures bob posted the link to? I watched that episode and i'm pretty sure he says the last one he caught is 16". I have it recorded so I will go back and check to see if that is just word of mouth or your "eyeball" measurment or if they actually measured the fish. Of course without seeing how it was measured we wouldn't know if it was done properly. I know fish in a tank very very rarely reach what they can in the wild, but is it not possible at all for a tern to reach over 12''? An in your opinon is a tern just an altered red or is it a different species? I am really wanting two of these fish but would like to know the whole story. I'm going to your site to do some research on this but I have a hard time checking into the site because there is so much stuff in there I'm not looking for and I often skim over the pieces I do want lol


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

RedBelly11 said:


> Frank,
> Did you look at the pictures bob posted the link to? I watched that episode and i'm pretty sure he says the last one he caught is 16". I have it recorded so I will go back and check to see if that is just word of mouth or your "eyeball" measurment or if they actually measured the fish. Of course without seeing how it was measured we wouldn't know if it was done properly. I know fish in a tank very very rarely reach what they can in the wild, but is it not possible at all for a tern to reach over 12''? An in your opinon is a tern just an altered red or is it a different species? I am really wanting two of these fish but would like to know the whole story. I'm going to your site to do some research on this but I have a hard time checking into the site because there is so much stuff in there I'm not looking for and I often skim over the pieces I do want lol


Putting aside all the drama of the name "ternetzi" and the way science currently has southern species as nattereri. It is "my personal oinion" that it might be a new species of Pygocentus based on a couple of characters not seen on Pygocentrus nattereri. Nothing to do with "size". It has to do with a rayed adipose fin on occasional examples
A feature seen only on piraya. This feature was never mentioned or seen on the ternetzi description. However science sees the southern population as nothing more than a linear cline. Nothing today separates it from nattereri.

It doesn't matter to me if those fish appear big in the video. I've seen the show. Just like a photograph. If you put the object closer to the lens and you are in the background it will appear larger.


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

so if a ternezi was documented as a damaged red belly does that mean science has not studied the true ternezi can you please elaborate on that frank?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

bob351 said:


> so if a ternezi was documented as a damaged red belly *does that mean science has not studied the true ternezi can you please elaborate on that frank?*


 Its documented at opefe, but in a nutshell, ternetzi is a synonym of P. nattereri. In 1996 the southern populations were re-examined. It was determined that color markers was simply the water they were in and the body shape was sufficient to keep it in the species nattereri. No additional markers have surfaced (ie., dna) to support making it a distinct separate species. However, the name "ternetzi" is still available, but not for the current standing.

On yeah, the "true" ternetzi IS THE DAMAGED P. nattereri.


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

thanks


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

bob351 said:


> thanks










. Next comes the other sore point S. maculatus v S. spilopleura.


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

:laugh:


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## MFNRyan (Mar 27, 2011)

So that should mean that if you got a baby p. natt you could get a gold color from the fish and it's gray areas change also with the correct water to make it look like a ternetzi? or am I missing something here? I see a lot of differences in the two fish but that means nothing I know. I really like these fish mostly because of the gold color and would like to find one or two of them. I did not know the name is just a tag that a natt got and this is not a total separate species all together


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

RedBelly11 said:


> So that should mean that if you got a baby p. natt you could get a gold color from the fish and it's gray areas change also with the correct water to make it look like a ternetzi? or am I missing something here? I see a lot of differences in the two fish but that means nothing I know. I really like these fish mostly because of the gold color and would like to find one or two of them. I did not know the name is just a tag that a natt got and this is not a total separate species all together


You will never be able to duplicate a river system in a home aquarium. You can approximate it but not duplicate it. Thats why nattereri in the adult size remain colorful and tank prone fish lose their luster.


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## MFNRyan (Mar 27, 2011)

So why is it babies from a "tern" come out with Yellow colors and gow with the yellow color into the same adult their parent was? If a tern is just a damaged natt, then the baby would not come out with the same damage as the parent? This is very confusing to me


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

RedBelly11 said:


> So why is it babies from a "tern" come out with Yellow colors and gow with the yellow color into the same adult their parent was? If a tern is just a damaged natt, then the baby would not come out with the same damage as the parent? This is very confusing to me


I believe that the fact is the type specimen (the one that's kept in a museum for descriptive purposes) for _P. ternetzi_ is a damaged _P. nattereri_, but not all so-called "terns" are damaged...

...to your second point, if the yellow color is an inherited trait, then it could very well be passed on.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

ChilDawg said:


> So why is it babies from a "tern" come out with Yellow colors and gow with the yellow color into the same adult their parent was? If a tern is just a damaged natt, then the baby would not come out with the same damage as the parent? This is very confusing to me


I believe that the fact is the type specimen (the one that's kept in a museum for descriptive purposes) for _P. ternetzi_ is a damaged _P. nattereri_, but not all so-called "terns" are damaged...

...to your second point, if the yellow color is an inherited trait, then it could very well be passed on.
[/quote]

Which adds more to the issue yellow is a predominate color in those waters besides just piranhas.

All the so-called terns are not terns but P nattereri. The holotype of P ternetzi Steindachner is the only one known to science and the only one with that species name. The rest of the problem is Steindauchner never compared his ternetzi with P nattereri. Had he we would not be having this discussion now.


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## MFNRyan (Mar 27, 2011)

But the Nattereri has a red belly, so how would a damaged red belly that came out with a yellow pass that on to the child and the generations following? If it's the same fish why would so many have all the distinctive differences and there babies be born with the same and generation after generation the trait be passed on? I do see how they very closely resemble each other but I don;t understand how they are not different fish? I mean if my Dad has a birth defect or is disfigured during his life, I'm not born with those defects an nor are my children. I don't understand how it's called a natt but the coloration and even body are slightly different?? So the guys with all the answers say the water changed the natt to have this gold form an a slightly different structor but its the same fish. Does it breed with red bellies? If you move this fish to the same waters as the red's does it become red. If you moved it's babies to the same waters would they become red. I just don't understand how this is the same fish.. Like i said, maybe I'm missing something. and i'm not trying to say Frank is wrong because I know he knows way more then I probably ever will. I'm just not understanding this whole idea and the comment . Not that i want to rebut the comment I would just like to understand it


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Read my revised comments above.


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## MFNRyan (Mar 27, 2011)

Ok. Have you compaired the two of them? If not do you plan on doing it any time soon or do you agree with the current clause a tern is just an altered natt

I don;t see how they are the same. If this was the case I feel you could take a red to that area and he would too become gold, or a baby red, also if just the water was changing the fish, I feel a baby tern in the right conditions would become red?? If the waters caused it to become gold. You removed it from the waters what is keeping the babies from becoming red. What keeps the two fish from spawning together? Has anyone heard of this happening?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Lastly as i stated before both Carl Eigenmann and Charles Norman saw the Steindauhner P nattereri. Both scientists agree the characters erected for ternetzi match P nattereri. The only thing that stood out was the anal fin count. It was very low compared to P nattereri. It was in fact bit off giving low counts.

Thats it. Nothing else to say about it.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

@Redbelly : keep in mind that you and Frank are talking about different meanings of "ternetzi". To the hobby, it refers to the southern population of P.nattereri, generally called ternetzis. This is a very unfortunate common name.
According to nomenclatural rules, described in the International Code for Zoölogical Nomenclature, once a specimen is used for holotype to describe a species, that species name can only be used for that perticular species.

So from a scientific view, "ternetzi" is a name that is only valid for the species described by Steindachner, _Serrasalmo ternetzi_.
The specimen he used to describe that species however, the holotype, turned out to be a damaged P.nattereri.
Therefore S.ternetzi became a non-existing species and since it was actually a nattereri, it was revised as a synonym to nattereri. According to the nomenclatural code, the oldest name stays valid and all later names become synonyms.

That's why from a scientific view, Ternetzi will always be a synonym of nattereri.

Unfortunately some one decided one day, to make it the common name for the southern population of nattereri, and that is what you, or the hobby in general, is referring to when talking about "ternetzis". Thatś the very base of the mis-communications.
For if you ask if "ternetzi" could be a different species, the answer will always be no. Thatś regulated by the International Code for Zoölogical Nomenclature. Itś a synonym to nattereri, end of story.
If one was to drop the common name and reformulate the question to "could the southern population we know as P.nattereri, be a distinct species ? " it would become a different question....


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> @Redbelly : keep in mind that you and Frank are talking about different meanings of "ternetzi". To the hobby, it refers to the southern population of P.nattereri, generally called ternetzis. This is a very unfortunate common name.
> According to nomenclatural rules, described in the International Code for Zoölogical Nomenclature, once a specimen is used for holotype to describe a species, that species name can only be used for that perticular species.
> 
> So from a scientific view, "ternetzi" is a name that is only valid for the species described by Steindachner, _Serrasalmo ternetzi_.
> ...


And my answer would be maybe. But not enough material to say yes


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Redbelly read this page: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/piranha038/ternetzi.html

It also addresses the common name ternetzi.


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## MFNRyan (Mar 27, 2011)

hastatus said:


> @Redbelly : keep in mind that you and Frank are talking about different meanings of "ternetzi". To the hobby, it refers to the southern population of P.nattereri, generally called ternetzis. This is a very unfortunate common name.
> According to nomenclatural rules, described in the International Code for Zoölogical Nomenclature, once a specimen is used for holotype to describe a species, that species name can only be used for that perticular species.
> 
> So from a scientific view, "ternetzi" is a name that is only valid for the species described by Steindachner, _Serrasalmo ternetzi_.
> ...


And my answer would be maybe. But not enough material to say yes
[/quote]

Memento, thank you for that.. thats what I needed and now I better understand what frank was trying to say. what i am calling a tern and what frank is refering to are two different fish. Thank you to both of you for explaining this to me. So my next question would be were can I find two southern natt's lol


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

RedBelly11 said:


> @Redbelly : keep in mind that you and Frank are talking about different meanings of "ternetzi". To the hobby, it refers to the southern population of P.nattereri, generally called ternetzis. This is a very unfortunate common name.
> According to nomenclatural rules, described in the International Code for Zoölogical Nomenclature, once a specimen is used for holotype to describe a species, that species name can only be used for that perticular species.
> 
> So from a scientific view, "ternetzi" is a name that is only valid for the species described by Steindachner, _Serrasalmo ternetzi_.
> ...


And my answer would be maybe. But not enough material to say yes
[/quote]

Memento, thank you for that.. thats what I needed and now I better understand what frank was trying to say. what i am calling a tern and what frank is refering to are two different fish. Thank you to both of you for explaining this to me. So my next question would be were can I find two southern natt's lol
[/quote]
Check with the sponsors.


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## MFNRyan (Mar 27, 2011)

I've had bad luck with them. Shark Aquarium won't send me a picture of the fish I am about to purchase and expect me to buy one they pick out for me. I have heard bad things about Pedro and sick fish coming from there etc.. also doesn't ever have much stock. AE i'm guessing is Alex and he does not have any nor do they see any in the furture


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

RedBelly11 said:


> I've had bad luck with them. Shark Aquarium won't send me a picture of the fish I am about to purchase and expect me to buy one they pick out for me. I have heard bad things about Pedro and sick fish coming from there etc.. also doesn't ever have much stock. AE i'm guessing is Alex and he does not have any nor do they see any in the furture


Sorry you have that opinion of them. TO me they are honorable men and can't see them selling bad stock.


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## MFNRyan (Mar 27, 2011)

Not knocking the men themselves just have had a rough run. Not saying this is normal or even necessarily their fault even. When I find someone who has Terns, I'll give them one more shot







Thanks for your help an the explaining for me Frank


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## jp80911 (Apr 3, 2008)

I don't think AS and AE have terns in stock now, only SA has them at the moment, all the small ones they have look good (4-6") so you shouldn't be disappointed regardless which one G sends you.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

I don't think you have to doubt George (SharkAquarium) when it comes down to delivering fish.... read the feedback he got in his subforum over here


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA (Dec 8, 2003)

I know I said I would post some pics of my Tern the other day but here they are. Eye ball measurement of 10" in a 90 Gallon. The pics are from 2 months ago but I have a you tube video of him just search THEBLACKPIRANHA3288 and it should pull up my video's.

I have never linked you tube video's but hope this works.

[url=[/URL]


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## jp80911 (Apr 3, 2008)




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## MFNRyan (Mar 27, 2011)

Not that I doubt G. I would just like to be able to see the fish first and kind of have a choice in what i'm getting. I don't know him an have never bought from him so I didn't know he was a good call when it comes to getting the fish for you


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

From experience, i've known George to never knowingly ship out a damaged fish. And he always (in my opinion) takes the extra care to be sure you get the best looking fish.


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## MFNRyan (Mar 27, 2011)

best looking.. in what eye lol thats why I would like to pic my fish, something about a fish he likes I may not like. I guess that's just part of buying online though. I have always gone to a LFS to get the fish I wanted. But for this style of fish seems I will not find close to home


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## TheSpaz13 (Apr 9, 2010)

Dude visiting SA is part of the fishing hobby for me and I can tell you from walking around the place that there are less then 5 tanks or piranha that are somehow messed up and they are clearly labeled (most are damaged rbp, or other small p that got hit during feedings). Other then those very few tanks, there's prolly another 60 with BEAUTIFUL fish. I know you want to pic your own fish and I don't blame you, I'm the same way. But really, you have to try and find a bad looking fish in that store and even then its kinda hard...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

TheSpaz13 said:


> Dude visiting SA is part of the fishing hobby for me and I can tell you from walking around the place that there are less then 5 tanks or piranha that are somehow messed up and they are clearly labeled (most are damaged rbp, or other small p that got hit during feedings). Other then those very few tanks, there's prolly another 60 with BEAUTIFUL fish. I know you want to pic your own fish and I don't blame you, I'm the same way. But really, you have to try and find a bad looking fish in that store and even then its kinda hard...


If George or his employees had to photograph each individual fish for shipment before it was sold, they'd be spending all their time doing that and getting nothing shipped.

Be realistic or find somewhere else to shop that is not on line.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

hastatus said:


> Dude visiting SA is part of the fishing hobby for me and I can tell you from walking around the place that there are less then 5 tanks or piranha that are somehow messed up and they are clearly labeled (most are damaged rbp, or other small p that got hit during feedings). Other then those very few tanks, there's prolly another 60 with BEAUTIFUL fish. I know you want to pic your own fish and I don't blame you, I'm the same way. But really, you have to try and find a bad looking fish in that store and even then its kinda hard...


If George or his employees had to photograph each individual fish for shipment before it was sold, they'd be spending all their time doing that and getting nothing shipped.

Be realistic or find somewhere else to shop that is not on line.
[/quote]

It takes seconds to take a pic...even high quality pics







It would take less than acouple hours to get pics of his shop


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

AKSkirmish said:


> Dude visiting SA is part of the fishing hobby for me and I can tell you from walking around the place that there are less then 5 tanks or piranha that are somehow messed up and they are clearly labeled (most are damaged rbp, or other small p that got hit during feedings). Other then those very few tanks, there's prolly another 60 with BEAUTIFUL fish. I know you want to pic your own fish and I don't blame you, I'm the same way. But really, you have to try and find a bad looking fish in that store and even then its kinda hard...


If George or his employees had to photograph each individual fish for shipment before it was sold, they'd be spending all their time doing that and getting nothing shipped.

Be realistic or find somewhere else to shop that is not on line.
[/quote]

It takes seconds to take a pic...even high quality pics







It would take less than acouple hours to get pics of his shop
[/quote]

What he wants is a photo selection of what he will be getting. If he don't like it then SA will have to start the process all over again. I don't maybe George has the time


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