# just fed a rat for the first time



## liquidshred (Oct 12, 2004)

that was the nastiest sh*t i have ever seen. the skin gets torn off and the organs and intestines fly out, while its squirming for its life. they only ate half of it and it looked like it was still alive when they left it.

eww, now my pleco came out an is sucking on it.

watching a vid of it and seeing it yourself are two diff things.

dont flame me saying im a p*ssy or "what the hell did u think was going to happen if u put a rat in your tank?"

all im saying is that it was nasty as f*ck, and if you don't think so, then ur nasty.

ewww


----------



## 351winsor (Aug 3, 2004)

ya,I fed my p's a dead adult mouse,it was fun.I can;t wait till I get a live one in there.


----------



## Death in #'s (Apr 29, 2003)

live mouse feedings are nasty and messy
just use some rat pups (pre killed)
they are fun to watch and its already dead


----------



## 351winsor (Aug 3, 2004)

they are fun to watch.but there isn't nothing like feeding them a live one.I can't wait till I witness this.


----------



## gmcmillan (Nov 6, 2004)

dan right! i can't wait till mine are big enough


----------



## 351winsor (Aug 3, 2004)

gmcmillan said:


> dan right! i can't wait till mine are big enough
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Death in #'s (Apr 29, 2003)

351winsor said:


> they are fun to watch.but there isn't nothing like feeding them a live one.I can't wait till I witness this.
> [snapback]806571[/snapback]​


why is it better to feed a live one
u get pleasure at watching animals suffer 
if u do then u are a sick f*ck


----------



## shutter13 (Jun 23, 2004)

i dont care about the mouse... but i would never wanna clean that up


----------



## 351winsor (Aug 3, 2004)

I dont like seeing animals suffer.Unless it is to my piranhas.HAHAHA :laugh:


----------



## Death in #'s (Apr 29, 2003)

351winsor said:


> I dont like seeing animals suffer.Unless it is to my piranhas.HAHAHA :laugh:
> [snapback]806596[/snapback]​










cant argue with that statement


----------



## 351winsor (Aug 3, 2004)

Death in # said:


> :laugh: cant argue with that statement
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you have gotta be proud of your piranhas right.


----------



## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

Death in # said:


> :laugh: cant argue with that statement
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That doesn't mean that you have to sit there and enjoy a LIVE specimen drowning and being ripped apart at the same time.

Pac


----------



## rbp 4 135 (Mar 2, 2004)

doset much matter, the mice are feeder mice, if your p's dont eat them someone elses python or lizard will


----------



## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

PacmanXSA said:


> That doesn't mean that you have to sit there and enjoy a LIVE specimen drowning and being ripped apart at the same time.
> 
> Pac
> [snapback]806797[/snapback]​


True, however there are better ways of dieing than others. I'd rather be killed instantly than have my limbs chewed off first.









Pac


----------



## 351winsor (Aug 3, 2004)

PacmanXSA said:


> That doesn't mean that you have to sit there and enjoy a LIVE specimen drowning and being ripped apart at the same time.
> 
> Pac
> [snapback]806797[/snapback]​


stop bitchin.Have you ever heard of a thing called the food chain.


----------



## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

good times. sounds gross though.



PacmanXSA said:


> True, however there are better ways of dieing than others. I'd rather be killed instantly than have my limbs chewed off first.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


did u just respond to your own quote?


----------



## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

351winsor said:


> stop bitchin.Have you ever heard of a thing called the food chain.
> [snapback]806903[/snapback]​


I have. I suggest you read a book on compassion though









Also, if piranha were meant to eat live rodents, they'd be all over the amazon...



> did u just respond to your own quote?


Yes sir... Twas an accident.









Pac


----------



## rbp 4 135 (Mar 2, 2004)

i dunno if this goes for rats and so fort, but massive trauma injuries, like having a limb QUICKY chopped off tend not to hurt, the reson for this is the spinal system has the ability to shyt off nerve receprors, for the better of the body, not shure, but qickly beeing shreded might not hurt as bad as having the living [email protected] slowly squeezed out of you.


----------



## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

rbp 4 135 said:


> i dunno if this goes for rats and so fort, but massive trauma injuries, like having a limb QUICKY chopped off tend not to hurt, the reson for this is the spinal system has the ability to shyt off nerve receprors, for the better of the body, not shure, but qickly beeing shreded might not hurt as bad as having the living [email protected] slowly squeezed out of you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not saying that being slowly digested by a python is any better than being ravaged by a shoal of piranhas seeing as you'd probably go into shock rather quickly. All I'm saying is that there are more HUMANE ways of feeding animals and that I don't see how people get their jollies by watching an animal being ripped to shreds while still alive.

Pac


----------



## rbp 4 135 (Mar 2, 2004)

agreed, you could kindly smack the rats on the head ith a baseball bat or lead pipe.


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

Death in # said:


> why is it better to feed a live one
> u get pleasure at watching animals suffer
> if u do then u are a sick f*ck
> [snapback]806591[/snapback]​


well, i think more people enjoy seeing their animals eat other live animals because it reproduces what happens in nature. while piranhas don't always eat rodents, they do. and being able to recreate a real scenario and watch predator catch prey is fascinating. let's face it, it isn't fun watching a powerful animal crush dead prey. imagine watching the discovery channel and then a blood thirsty pack of lions hunt down a dead gazelle. not interesting, right? same with piranhas. while it may be somewhat sadistic, [wanting to watch an animal be preyed upon], it feeds our repressed instincts as hunters.

same with feeding live fish. it isn't as interesting watching your predator stalk down pellets or demolish some smelt. it's funner to watch the cat and mouse game.


----------



## 4cmob (Nov 21, 2004)

hyphen said:


> well, i think more people enjoy seeing their animals eat other live animals because it reproduces what happens in nature. while piranhas don't always eat rodents, they do. and being able to recreate a real scenario and watch predator catch prey is fascinating. let's face it, it isn't fun watching a powerful animal crush dead prey. imagine watching the discovery channel and then a blood thirsty pack of lions hunt down a dead gazelle. not interesting, right? same with piranhas. while it may be somewhat sadistic, [wanting to watch an animal be preyed upon], it feeds our repressed instincts as hunters.
> 
> same with feeding live fish. it isn't as interesting watching your predator stalk down pellets or demolish some smelt. it's funner to watch the cat and mouse game.
> [snapback]807245[/snapback]​


couldn't agree more


----------



## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

hyphen said:


> well, i think more people enjoy seeing their animals eat other live animals because it reproduces what happens in nature. while piranhas don't always eat rodents, they do. and being able to recreate a real scenario and watch predator catch prey is fascinating. let's face it, it isn't fun watching a powerful animal crush dead prey. imagine watching the discovery channel and then a blood thirsty pack of lions hunt down a dead gazelle. not interesting, right? same with piranhas. while it may be somewhat sadistic, [wanting to watch an animal be preyed upon], it feeds our repressed instincts as hunters.
> 
> same with feeding live fish. it isn't as interesting watching your predator stalk down pellets or demolish some smelt. it's funner to watch the cat and mouse game.
> [snapback]807245[/snapback]​


I really liked your thought about our repressed hunting instincts







Really good!

Anyways, here's a thought though, what gives you the RIGHT to be deciding the fate of that live mouse?









Pac


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

PacmanXSA said:


> I really liked your thought about our repressed hunting instincts
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*edited for typos*

determining the fate of a living creature comes with posession of ANY carnivorous pet that requires a special diet. regardless of whether or not the animal is living or dead at the time of feeding, you're still feeding it an animal.

for instance, feeder mice are bred as food. if you decide to feed your piranhas a frozen mouse, the fact is that it's still a mouse that was alive at one point. the same thing applies for feeder fish. prepared fish was still alive at one point in time, so in reality it makes no difference. the only difference is what owners can and can't tolerate. some people can't stand gore and watching another animal be predated. others can.

anyway, with a strictly carnivorous pet, you have to feed it meat. whether it's alive or not is of no real relevance, just personal preference.


----------



## HighOctane (Jan 2, 2003)

> what gives you the RIGHT to be deciding the fate of that live mouse?


His wallet and the money in it?


----------



## heffer2028 (Oct 10, 2004)

PacmanXSA said:


> Anyways, here's a thought though, what gives you the RIGHT to be deciding the fate of that live mouse?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


he's not deciding the fate... the pirahnas are.

I never intended a mouse to die when i put it in my tank, i think that they would be good tankmates, but it seems the pirahnas never agree :nod:


----------



## Soldat (Aug 28, 2004)

heffer2028 said:


> he's not deciding the fate... the pirahnas are.
> 
> I never intended a mouse to die when i put it in my tank, i think that they would be good tankmates, but it seems the pirahnas never agree :nod:
> [snapback]807398[/snapback]​


Thats pretty good :laugh: Seriously though, who cares what other people do. It's their tank, money, and fish. I have personally fed live mice and will say that it is impressive and would be quite sickening to most people. I chose to TRY it, and never will again unless I get a new shoal and want to test their abilities. It ruined my water quality and just wasn't what I expected. Anything that a rodent activist says isn't going to change my mind about feeding live rodents. Experience is what changed my mind. So, if they're going to do it, fine. Let them try it without complaints from others.


----------



## sharkfan (Oct 22, 2004)

A rat happens to be a pretty intelligent animal. They can be trained to do all sorts of amazing things. I think that throwing a live rat or mouse into a small tank full of hungry Piranhas is not simulating nature, not even close. If seeing this type of crualty excites you, then you are a sick f*ck and IMO you are in this hobby for the wrong reasons. There is a line between humainly killing an animal for food, yours or your pets and just killing for fun, with the animal suffering. I know that any jerk-off with a couple of dollars in his wallet can buy a mouse or rat and torture the f*ck out of it if he wants to. Does that make it ok?


----------



## Soldat (Aug 28, 2004)

sharkfan said:


> A rat happens to be a pretty intelligent animal. They can be trained to do all sorts of amazing things. I think that throwing a live rat or mouse into a small tank full of hungry Piranhas is not simulating nature, not even close. If seeing this type of crualty excites you, then you are a sick f*ck and IMO you are in this hobby for the wrong reasons. There is a line between humainly killing an animal for food, yours or your pets and just killing for fun, with the animal suffering. I know that any jerk-off with a couple of dollars in his wallet can buy a mouse or rat and torture the f*ck out of it if he wants to. Does that make it ok?
> [snapback]807464[/snapback]​


YEP!!!


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

sharkfan said:


> A rat happens to be a pretty intelligent animal.
> They can be trained to do all sorts of amazing things. I think that throwing a live rat or mouse into a small tank full of hungry Piranhas is not simulating nature, not even close.


yes, there are a lot of "pretty intelligent" animals in this world that can be trained to do tricks and entertain us. and many more animals, just like those, are prey to animals higher in the food chain.

but you're wrong in saying that it isn't simulating nature. in fact, it is nature. you put wild animals into your home, it's your responsibility to care for them and provide them what they need. one thing that they need is food, putting a mouse into a tank full of hungry piranhas would be the process of feeding. how is that not nature? you feed them fish, live or frozen, it's nature. you feed them a mouse, live or frozen, that's nature as well.



> If seeing this type of crualty excites you, then you are a sick f*ck and IMO you are in this hobby for the wrong reasons.


what does watching your pet eat have to do with being in the hobby? no one ever said that they wanted to own piranhas JUST TO WATCH THEM EAT A RAT. the man fed his fish a rat, the end. where did anyone mention that it was the only part of being in the hobby? i think you've been reading too many of these threads and are putting out the same cliche line "you're in the hobby for the wrong reason." sorry bud, that line doesn't apply to this thread.



> There is a line between humainly killing an animal for food, yours or your pets and just killing for fun, with the animal suffering. I know that any jerk-off with a couple of dollars in his wallet can buy a mouse or rat and torture the f*ck out of it if he wants to. Does that make it ok?


i see, so putting a mouse into a box and letting it freeze to death is less humane than having it be eaten? do you realize the effects of hypothermia and how animals react to it? i assure you that the death process is a lot slower than being eaten. in most cases, when a rat is eaten by piranhas, it will go into shock or drown before they're even halfway done with it. their bodies work much like ours, which is why they're used so often in laboratory tests. a man that gets his arm eaten by a shark will most likely not feel the excruciating pain until quite a bit later, due to adrenaline and shock.

so, let's ignore the process. either way the animal is going to die. and the term "humane" is subjective. what you consider humane could be totally different.

torturing a rat is also different from feeding it to an animal. i'm sure you don't think that constrictors "humanely" kill rats? why don't you go to a reptile board and complain to them about their inhumanity and sick, sadistic minds.


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

i forgot to mention, i guess the thousands of people that watch discovery channel and animal planet are also "sick fucks".


----------



## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

owned..

Just for the record... i get sick watching Ps rip up other animals.. lol. but hyphen has a superb point.


----------



## NavinWithPs (Apr 3, 2003)

i stopped feeding my ps live food period. when i first started out with ps, i thought it was cool and all to feed them feeders, now i just feel sorry for them. i use to work at a fish store, and you wouldn't believe how mistreated these animals were.


----------



## sharkfan (Oct 22, 2004)

Its not nature because in nature animals crossing a river have many options to escape. It is usually the old, sick or injured animals that falls prey to being eaten. Putting a an animal in your closed up 10 gallon aquarium where it has ZERO chance to escape is not simulating nature.

Bud, you cant compare feeding fish or krill to that of feeding a mamal to your P's. A mamal's heart races and they go under incredible stress from being dropped in water.. they have an intense fear of drowning like you and me. How would you like to be pulled underwater.. forget about the pain.. just the terrifying fear of being pulled under water.. If you have fed your P's a rat before you know how they struggle to come up for air .. they want that precious oxygen. Why do you think that so many drug companies do tests on mice and rats????? Becasue they can simulate many of the symptoms humans do.. and the drug companies can then try different drugs to help cure them.. such as anxiaty, depressione etc.. I think you simply have no idea of how close these animals are to us in terms of a an evalutionary scale.. would you feed your P's a kitten??? There are thousands of cats that are killed evey year for overpopulation? A Cat is MUCH closer to the likes of a Rat than a Rat is to a goldfish??? Obviosly you wouldnt and i know that..

If you want to spend your time to argue that it is ok to feed live rats to your P's then go ahead you have a nobel cause on your hands. I am just giving my opinion on the subject..


----------



## spawnie9600 (Nov 15, 2004)

use hairless ones i hear they are less messy and healthier


----------



## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

Well I'm glad that I stimulated a tad bit of conversation thus far.



hyphen said:


> but you're wrong in saying that it isn't simulating nature. in fact, it is nature. you put wild animals into your home, it's your responsibility to care for them and provide them what they need.


You are correct. However the question remains; do they NEED a live rat? There are MANY other options out there that could be chosen, but instead people are deciding to use a more "ethically contraversial" means of feeding their pets. I've read findings of piranhas living on normal fish flakes. So, even if this is a rare case, what gives you there RIGHT to be feeding it a live or dead specimen??



hyphen said:


> so, let's ignore the process. either way the animal is going to die. and the term "humane" is subjective. what you consider humane could be totally different.


It's agreed that this area is truely gray, however you can't tell me that there are better ways to die than others. I, PERSONALLY, would rather get cracked over the head and then fed to the piranhas then try to squirm and not drown, while being attacked.

Just for the record, I am by no means some sort of "tree hugger" or anything, I'm just trying to stimulate the thought process baby









Pac


----------



## sasquach (Dec 6, 2004)

lol i cant wait til i get mine, you describe it in such a sick but kool way :nod:


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

sharkfan said:


> Its not nature because in nature animals crossing a river have many options to escape. It is usually the old, sick or injured animals that falls prey to being eaten. Putting a an animal in your closed up 10 gallon aquarium where it has ZERO chance to escape is not simulating nature.


oh i see. so you're saying that a rat in the middle of the amazon river is going to be able to escape the teeth of a shoal of 50-100 hungry FISH. hrm, the chances aren't likely. a rodent that isn't aquatic in nature has a minute chance of surviving, if any at all. and yes, that is nature and merriam webster agrees with me:

Main Entry: na·ture
Pronunciation: 'nA-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin natura, from natus, past participle of nasci to be born -- more at NATION

4 : the physical constitution or drives of an organism; especially : an excretory organ or function -- used in phrases like the call of nature

thank you.



> Bud, you cant compare feeding fish or krill to that of feeding a mamal to your P's. A mamal's heart races and they go under incredible stress from being dropped in water.. they have an intense fear of drowning like you and me. How would you like to be pulled underwater.. forget about the pain.. just the terrifying fear of being pulled under water.. If you have fed your P's a rat before you know how they struggle to come up for air .. they want that precious oxygen. Why do you think that so many drug companies do tests on mice and rats????? Becasue they can simulate many of the symptoms humans do.. and the drug companies can then try different drugs to help cure them.. such as anxiaty, depressione etc.. I think you simply have no idea of how close these animals are to us in terms of a an evalutionary scale.. would you feed your P's a kitten??? There are thousands of cats that are killed evey year for overpopulation? A Cat is MUCH closer to the likes of a Rat than a Rat is to a goldfish??? Obviosly you wouldnt and i know that..


i believe this topic has been covered already. you're not an expert and can't definitely say that mice feel "fear of drowning." mice don't even know what drowning is. if you're judging emotion by simple reaction to a given scenario, then it could be said that crickets have fear of stepped on. and yes, i'm well aware of why mice and rats are used in laboratory tests...i just mentined that in my previous post. and like i said in my previous post, [which you obviousl failed to read or comprehend], mice also go into shock. a natural body process when under extreme stress, i.e. being eaten. as do other animals, quadraped AND bipeds.

and a little information to you, mice are not even close to humans on the "evolutionary scale." they're rodents and we're humans. if you were talking about primates, you'd have a point. but you're not...so you don't.

would i feed my piranhas a cat? seeing that i have no piranhas at the moment, it seems like i wouldn't be able to, right? would if i had large enough shoal? hell yes. that would be an awesome sight. i love having an animal that will show me it's physical prowess. they eat anything they can in the wild, i'm sure they eat felines as well.



> If you want to spend your time to argue that it is ok to feed live rats to your P's then go ahead you have a nobel cause on your hands. I am just giving my opinion on the subject..
> [snapback]807531[/snapback]​


yeah, that's the part you don't seem to understand. it's your opinion and you're in no position to be judging anyone. you're calling people "sick fucks" and other rude comments with lack of reason to do so. you failed to comment on no more than one of points and have no real arguement. go around and call us sick fucks, but look at the human race as a whole, and our behaviors before saying that. i'm sure you've watched a special on lions or jaguars and footage of them hunting prey on discovery. lol...


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

PacmanXSA said:


> Well I'm glad that I stimulated a tad bit of conversation thus far.


yeah, conversation is good.



> You are correct. However the question remains; do they NEED a live rat? There are MANY other options out there that could be chosen, but instead people are deciding to use a more "ethically contraversial" means of feeding their pets. I've read findings of piranhas living on normal fish flakes. So, even if this is a rare case, what gives you there RIGHT to be feeding it a live or dead specimen??


they don't NEED a live rat at all, by no means do they. but do snakes NEED live rats? no, they don't. i never said that it was a requirement of piranha-keeping to have to feed them mammalian meats. in fact, it's advised to stay away from feeding your fish too much mammalian meat. but like i mentioned before, it isn't about the health or nutrition. it's about the process. the chase the ensues, how the piranhas approach the prey, and the frenzy that ensues. it's a spectacular site. and to be quite honest, it isn't the same when they're frenzying over a piece of smelt. like i said before, we are hunters in nature and not all of us can express those instincts.

i think this act has been deemed controversial for no real reason at all. snake owners don't get slammed for feeding their pets live mice, some choose not to though. i believe the rodent/piranha game has been gaining a bad reputation because mice don't belong in water. some people don't realize that there are far worse things happening to mice and far bigger prey being eaten alive in the wild. i'm sure you wouldn't enjoy being a laboratory mouse and having an ear attached to your back.



> It's agreed that this area is truely gray, however you can't tell me that there are better ways to die than others. I, PERSONALLY, would rather get cracked over the head and then fed to the piranhas then try to squirm and not drown, while being attacked.


that's you and a subjective topic. but people always say that this is inhumane, that isn't right, blah blah. that's their opinion. but realize that the way mice are killed is no better than how you're going to kill them by feeding them to your pets. it's not like they have a gas chamber or lethal injections for mice. death is death and the either way the mouse will be eaten.



> Just for the record, I am by no means some sort of "tree hugger" or anything, I'm just trying to stimulate the thought process baby
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that's very much appreciated


----------



## scottyd (Oct 10, 2004)

sharkfan said:


> Its not nature because in nature animals crossing a river have many options to escape. It is usually the old, sick or injured animals that falls prey to being eaten. Putting a an animal in your closed up 10 gallon aquarium where it has ZERO chance to escape is not simulating nature.
> 
> Bud, you cant compare feeding fish or krill to that of feeding a mamal to your P's. A mamal's heart races and they go under incredible stress from being dropped in water.. they have an intense fear of drowning like you and me. How would you like to be pulled underwater.. forget about the pain.. just the terrifying fear of being pulled under water.. If you have fed your P's a rat before you know how they struggle to come up for air .. they want that precious oxygen. Why do you think that so many drug companies do tests on mice and rats????? Becasue they can simulate many of the symptoms humans do.. and the drug companies can then try different drugs to help cure them.. such as anxiaty, depressione etc.. I think you simply have no idea of how close these animals are to us in terms of a an evalutionary scale.. would you feed your P's a kitten??? There are thousands of cats that are killed evey year for overpopulation? A Cat is MUCH closer to the likes of a Rat than a Rat is to a goldfish??? Obviosly you wouldnt and i know that..
> 
> ...


___________________________________________________________________

I know I have probably argued issues with Hyphen before, but his response is right on the money in every post on this subject. Brilliant!

Anyway, So you are saying, if an Animal is not as close to a human it deserves to die a more horrible death??
Another exaple..look at all the food in stores people eat, do you really think all those animals die a quick painless death.... hardly... I have seen first hand, I have worked in chicken processing plants, and one of my best friends in a meat packing house where they killed cattle... sometimes it is a quick death, but a lot of times it is NOT...

In nature at least they have a chance to get away.... but those poor cows do not, yet I'll wager you have no problem SUPORTING this painful death. when you buy and eat red (or any meat) meat at the stores...
Pigs are some of the worlds smartest animals, yet I'll bet you have no problem eating Bacon, Ham, port chops, Sausages etc..
None of us on this earth are perfet angels... We all do stuff that might make other sick ,but it does not mean they are wrong and you right, and that can also be vice versa... ...Ease up there

scott


----------



## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

scottyd said:


> ___________________________________________________________________
> 
> I know I have probably argued issues with Hyphen before, but his response is right on the money in every post on this subject. Brilliant!
> 
> ...


Ah, so it seems that you are saying that since it happens to other animals, then it's ok for it to happen to a mouse









@hyphen: My main point is this: Seeing as there are other alternatives to live or dead specimens, what gives you the right to choose meat? Further to that, just because other people participate in such rituals doesn't mean it's right or moral. Succumbing to the pressures of society shouldn't be an issue when morality is the primary motive here. By purchasing live specimens you are in fact helping and increasing demand for such products. What gives you the right to do so?









Pac


----------



## galland (Nov 7, 2003)

Awesome man. I threw a mouse in for my Caribe's and it was literally gone in about 10 seconds. They played with the tail for a while. I have a boa also and I can assure you that the boa makes him suffer much more. The blood rushing too the eyes because of the pressure is especially gruesome. At least with the P's the mouse didn't know what hit him. I was shocked to see the P's in action. I just stood there for a second and thought, "better him than me". Screw the greenpeace jokers. They should go to the goldfish page. Where everything is FLAKE food and not moving. Keep it up!


----------



## sharkfan (Oct 22, 2004)

I wish I had the time or energy to go line by line and dispute all of the issues that Hypen has set out.. I just think there is one major point that i really need to clear up since he has misquoted me on this several times. He seems to infer that i am saying that you are a sick f*ck if you have ever fed your P a rat.. this is not what i have said.. my point was that if you gain exictiment or enjoyment out of watching a rat suffer you are a sick f*ck.. , There are many alternatives to live rats...and why can't you just feed your fish an alternative food. I know that cows and pigs die misrable deaths.. but at least they are killed for food only.. 
I suppose if this is the reason why you would kill a rat i would have no probem with it either.. it is just with the people that are killing for the enjoyment of watching this creature being eaten alive and suffer. that is sick to me.. . That is why I can not go into his whole "nature" argument. nature is so diffrent for so many reasons.. there are many factors occuring in nature.. but one truth and that is survival.. animals and fish need to survive and will do what it takes to survive.. In your aqurium in complete contrast, it is NOT nature. you have a controlled situation and your Ps do not need to kill a rat to survive.. they may not know this and they will of course kill anything they see moving in their terratory.. But you as a responsible P owner should know better and know that you can feed this fish other foods that will not cause so much agony to an animal and still be very nourishimg to your P.

This post was started by liqued shred and I will use HIS words to end it:

" all im saying is that it was nasty as f*ck, and if you don't think so, then ur nasty."

Amen


----------



## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

sharkfan said:


> I wish I had the time or energy to go line by line and dispute all of the issues that Hypen has set out.. I just think there is one major point that i really need to clear up since he has misquoted me on this several times. He seems to infer that i am saying that you are a sick f*ck if you have ever fed your P a rat.. this is not what i have said.. my point was that if you gain exictiment or enjoyment out of watching a rat suffer you are a sick f*ck.. , There are many alternatives to live rats...and why can't you just feed your fish an alternative food. I know that cows and pigs die misrable deaths.. but at least they are killed for food only..
> I suppose if this is the reason why you would kill a rat i would have no probem with it either.. it is just with the people that are killing for the enjoyment of watching this creature being eaten alive and suffer. that is sick to me.. . That is why I can not go into his whole "nature" argument. nature is so diffrent for so many reasons.. there are many factors occuring in nature.. but one truth and that is survival.. animals and fish need to survive and will do what it takes to survive.. In your aqurium in complete contrast, it is NOT nature. you have a controlled situation and your Ps do not need to kill a rat to survive.. they may not know this and they will of course kill anything they see moving in their terratory.. But you as a responsible P owner should know better and know that you can feed this fish other foods that will not cause so much agony to an animal and still be very nourishimg to your P.
> 
> This post was started by liqued shred and I will use HIS words to end it:
> ...


While I do believe that if a person is getting their jollies from watching the victim suffer, then they are in fact somewhat sadistic.

I believe what we are currently debating, however, is the morality of such an act. Hypen as most are saying, states that this is more of a recreation of the food chain or nature just doing it's thing









Pac


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

PacmanXSA said:


> Ah, so it seems that you are saying that since it happens to other animals, then it's ok for it to happen to a mouse
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what gives me the right to choose meat? what gives the animal the right to choose to be a carnivore? 99.999% of piranhas will not eat flakes or pellets past a certain age/size. what gives a lion the right to hunt down gazelle? what gives a snake the right to eat rodents?

nobody said that it was ever moral or "right". i simply said that people watch it for the chase. you don't seem to get the point that i'm trying to get across. and pressures of society? maybe 1% of society owns piranhas, if that. there are no pressures. you either do it or you don't. nobody's going around saying "you're not cool if you don't feed your piranhas a rat!"

and no matter if piranha keepers buy live animals to feed their animals, reptile owners will. and to be honest, what gives me the right? the fact that i can. might makes right.

you eat cows, pigs, chickens, and fish. what gives YOU the right to create a demand for that?

and for sharkfan:

cows and pigs only die for food? if you'd like to believe that, please do. but visit the peta website before saying that. and what, rats being eaten by piranhas aren't only for food? i guess piranhas kill rats for their own personal enjoyment, right?

and please, do show me where i've misquoted you. all i did was use the quote feature on the board with each of your posts. it isn't my fault you can't express yourself properly.


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

an addition: what gives us the right to capture wild animals and put them in our homes?


----------



## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

hyphen said:


> what gives me the right to choose meat? what gives the animal the right to choose to be a carnivore? 99.999% of piranhas will not eat flakes or pellets past a certain age/size. what gives a lion the right to hunt down gazelle? what gives a snake the right to eat rodents?


What gives them the right is that they don't know any better. Humans, being on the top of the food chain, have the mental capacity and the ability to make the moral decision.



> you eat cows, pigs, chickens, and fish. what gives YOU the right to create a demand for that?


Seems as though you're starting to jump onto my side here baby







I really can't say that I have the moral right to do so. I'm just a fool stuck in the cultural norms of society like most I guess.



> an addition: what gives us the right to capture wild animals and put them in our homes?


Twas going to be another point I was to make. As stated above, I don't feel that I have the moral right to be doing so...

So what side are ya on baby









Pac


----------



## liquidshred (Oct 12, 2004)

wow, lots of response.
I merely said that feeding live Rats to Piranhas is,at least in my opinion, disgusting. I didn't expect the discussion to head in the philosophical dirrection. But to add my two cents on this i would have to say that "morals" are relative. 
You could argue that it's immoral to opt a rat to be grusomly ripped to shreds by Piranhas. Then you could argue that it is natural occurance. Animals eat animals, you are just reproducing what happens in nature.

If you own carnivores like piranhas, you have to supply them with a certain diet. 85% of what i feed my piranhas is alive or has been alive at some point. It is neccecary for piranhas to eat other animals to survive naturally. There fore, i think morals have nothing to do with this subject, unless you want to argue that nature is immoral.

However, 
People, unlike animals, have morals; and for the most part don't like to see other animals suffer.(espetially higher animals that we can project human qualities too.)

Therefore the real issue here is what is going on in someones head when they feed live food to their Piranhas. And whatever that is, is it justifiable?


----------



## KeemCambell (Jun 7, 2004)

wow wut a fun thread, i knew it was gonna turn into this from the title lol

i think ur both making good points, a rat fed for enjoyment of the death and "suffering"(if they feel it) is sick, but i dont think anyone does that they feed it and get enjoyment out of seeing thier Ps in action not the death, i love feeding live for the hunt but i hate it when they dont kill it quick and let something suffer

i also do think mice are killed with co2 so they just pass out and die a painless death, but again i only THINK that i believe i heard it on some forum (maybe this one? or some reptile one), so it is possible that they do die painless "humane" deaths before reaching you

but i really think overall its the owners choice, they should do thier research make sure they want to risk injury and have to clean up and do it if they feel like it

ive never fed a rodent and dont plan on it, even if they do go into shock it looks like they are suffering and struggling for life and Ps are sadistic and like to eat the back half and jus leave em alive i hate that, i cant even watch goldfish with thier tails bit off tryin to swim around, lol i guess im a p*ssy


----------



## psychofish (Jun 5, 2004)

Live feedings are the best


----------



## ILLdose13 (Nov 25, 2004)

SOME RAT IS GONNA GET TORN APART TOMORROW


----------



## Scrappy (Oct 21, 2004)

HighOctane said:


> His wallet and the money in it?
> [snapback]807382[/snapback]​


Hahahah! Best response yet. It's simple... nothing GAVE him the right to feed a rat to his p's, he CHOSE to do it. Someone giving him the right to do that implies there is someone or something that can prohit him from doing it. The only thing stoping him from doing it again is the size of his wallet.


----------



## Atlanta Braves Baby! (Mar 12, 2003)

Very interesting read.


----------



## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

scrappydoo said:


> Hahahah! Best response yet. It's simple... nothing GAVE him the right to feed a rat to his p's, he CHOSE to do it. Someone giving him the right to do that implies there is someone or something that can prohit him from doing it. The only thing stoping him from doing it again is the size of his wallet.
> [snapback]809375[/snapback]​


Then I guess I have the right to kill you and your entire family right!?!? No one is prohibiting me; I can CHOOSE to do so. There isn't a YES/NO clear cut answer. Obviously by my opening statement you can see that there are gray lines when it comes to morality.

I've run my own forums for awhile now and topics like vegetarianism/veganism have come up and I have to say; I can't see it being MORAL to eat meat even though I do it every day. The question that I have asked many people to answer is simply this:

"With all of the alternatives available to us in a modern lifestyle, what gives you the right to eat a living being when you don't have to?"

I personally can't answer that question as a meat eater, and I believe this topic is similar to that question. You don't HAVE to feed the rat in the tank; you choose to based on your own morality which is developped throughout the course of your life. But why can't you just feed it something else with all the alternatives that you have? That's the question at hand.

Glad to see some people are enjoying this









Pac


----------



## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

ILLdose13 said:


> SOME RAT IS GONNA GET TORN APART TOMORROW
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i hope 1) your piranhas don't p*ssy out and leave it alone and 2) you take a video of it so the rest of us can enjoy too!


----------



## JAC (Jan 19, 2004)

hyphen said:


> i forgot to mention, i guess the thousands of people that watch discovery channel and animal planet are also "sick fucks".
> [snapback]807479[/snapback]​


 I was about to post the same thing, stop judging people you don't even know and start looking at yourselves.


----------



## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

piranha45 said:


> i hope 1) your piranhas don't p*ssy out and leave it alone and 2) you take a video of it so the rest of us can enjoy too!
> [snapback]809543[/snapback]​


I think this logic is highly flawed seeing as nature is nature, however as human beings we are responsible for our actions. Nothing says that we NEED to be subjecting the rodent to such extremes whereas animals can't be expected to follow morality!

Pac


----------



## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

I have no problem with actually feeding a live mouse to some Piranhas, BUT I would never do it due to the following reasons..

- It is very likely that a mouse kicking in the water could easily hurt one of my P's eyes, and I wouldnt want that to happen!

- The mess it causes in the tank will totally screw your water parameters up, and this could be fatal to your P's.

So although I expect it is good to watch, I care about my P's a little more than to risk feeding them a mouse for my own enjoyment. Maybe if the mouse has extra nutritional value I would do it, but as it doesnt I dont see the point!


----------



## renderstream (Apr 10, 2004)

Although I personally do not have anything against live feedings, i do not agree entirely with your points.

First off, feeding a live animal inside an aquarium is far from "natural"

In nature, most of the animals that get killed off are either weak, sick or injured. By these animals dieing off, it is actually beneficial to the species (scientists call this natural selection or survival of the fittest)

When you feed a goldfish for example, not only is it not beneficial in any aspect (except to entertain you) it is not natural at all. In the wild, the prey often has enough space to get away. In your aquarium - you have determined its fate since the moment you brought him home. This goes the same for any live mammals.

My point is - if you enjoy watching your piranha killing live animals for your sheer enjoyment and to entertain yourself then so be it. Howver, i think it is unreasonable to claim that it is natural or saying that you are recreating what happens in the wild.

EDIT:

Also your point about the discovery channel - when we watch the discovery channel, we are watching the process of nature and animals in the wild. This is what would be call nature, and is completely different from live feedings in a captive environment.


----------



## flash! (Aug 10, 2004)

sharkfan said:


> Its not nature because in nature animals crossing a river have many options to escape. It is usually the old, sick or injured animals that falls prey to being eaten. Putting a an animal in your closed up 10 gallon aquarium where it has ZERO chance to escape is not simulating nature.
> 
> Bud, you cant compare feeding fish or krill to that of feeding a mamal to your P's. A mamal's heart races and they go under incredible stress from being dropped in water.. they have an intense fear of drowning like you and me. How would you like to be pulled underwater.. forget about the pain.. just the terrifying fear of being pulled under water.. If you have fed your P's a rat before you know how they struggle to come up for air .. they want that precious oxygen. Why do you think that so many drug companies do tests on mice and rats????? Becasue they can simulate many of the symptoms humans do.. and the drug companies can then try different drugs to help cure them.. such as anxiaty, depressione etc.. I think you simply have no idea of how close these animals are to us in terms of a an evalutionary scale.. would you feed your P's a kitten??? There are thousands of cats that are killed evey year for overpopulation? A Cat is MUCH closer to the likes of a Rat than a Rat is to a goldfish??? Obviosly you wouldnt and i know that..
> 
> ...


yep I agree!


----------



## flash! (Aug 10, 2004)

I think that if the animal/fish or whatever in question needs to kill live food to live and survive, like the "discovery channel lion", then thats o.k, but all of our P's do not have to have live food to survive!, they can do just fine on other foods.

how many of us would feed one of our other P's as live food? probably not many

I personaly don't do live food, but it's each to thier own at the end of the day

D!


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

renderstream said:


> Although I personally do not have anything against live feedings, i do not agree entirely with your points.
> 
> First off, feeding a live animal inside an aquarium is far from "natural"


check merriam webster or dictionary.com for the actual definition of "natural". eating and feeding is a "natural" process. i'm not sure where you get your definition from, but every dictionary in existence disagrees with you.



> In nature, most of the animals that get killed off are either weak, sick or injured. By these animals dieing off, it is actually beneficial to the species (scientists call this natural selection or survival of the fittest)
> 
> When you feed a goldfish for example, not only is it not beneficial in any aspect (except to entertain you) it is not natural at all. In the wild, the prey often has enough space to get away. In your aquarium - you have determined its fate since the moment you brought him home. This goes the same for any live mammals.


the fact the piranhas feed on and consume what you put in there makes it natural. when they are hungry, they eat. the fact of the matter is that in the wild they only eat what they can, which just so happens to be the weak or injured. in the home aquaria, their prey is whatever is put into that tank. thus, your aquarium and captive pets and their habits become "natural."



> My point is - if you enjoy watching your piranha killing live animals for your sheer enjoyment and to entertain yourself then so be it. Howver, i think it is unreasonable to claim that it is natural or saying that you are recreating what happens in the wild.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> ...


#1. read the first sentence covered. natural, us eating = natural. piranhas eating live animals = natural. if it weren't natural or of their nature, then they wouldn't do it. plain and simple. piranhas, in general, don't eat flakes or pellets. so that isn't "natural". they eat live and prepared foods. but, for instance, if a piranah were to, by instinct, eat anything else [such as berries, pellets, flakes, water bottles, wrenches] then it would be nature. why? because it does.

i don't think you grasp the definition of nature or what nature really is.


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

rupert said:


> I think that if the animal/fish or whatever in question needs to kill live food to live and survive, like the "discovery channel lion", then thats o.k, but all of our P's do not have to have live food to survive!, they can do just fine on other foods.


sure, they can do perfectly fine on prepared or pre-killed food. but what does it matter? either way, an animal was killed to feed your pet. regardless of what you're feeding it. i don't suppose you think that flakes and pellets were made from mystical herbs plowed from the earth. no, it contains fish, krill, and other sources of protein and calcium.

why would you buy a fish and take away from it the instincts it possesses? it's a predator. they don't shoal and have big teeth because they're hand fed headless smelt on a daily basis. one of the marvels that come with awesome fish like piranhas are their prowess. to take that away from it should be a crime in itself.



> how many of us would feed one of our other P's as live food? probably not many
> 
> I personaly don't do live food, but it's each to thier own at the end of the day
> D!
> [snapback]810211[/snapback]​


i don't get what you're trying to get at. but if what you're writing is what i think it is, that has no relevance at all to the issue at hand.


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

the concept that i think the people aren't grasping is that once you snatch a wild animal away from its environment of origin, you are creating another block of nature in your own home. a block of nature in the shape of an aquarium. what goes on in that tank is nature or simulating nature. feeding dead smelt is nature. your filters are nature, the powerheads are nature.

if you can't ponder on that and comprehend the concept of it all, then i don't think you should be posting.


----------



## sharkfan (Oct 22, 2004)

Hyphen you my friend seem to be deeply lacking in comprehending what nature is. You have simulated a sort of natural enviroment for your fish in your aqaurium I agree 100% with that. BUT you have not simulated nature not even close. Nature is more, much more than the 50 gallons of water you have in your tank.. the rodent would have trees, leaves, rocks birds and all sorts of other things that would play a part in how it would act around water, and if it fell in, it would have a chance to escape!!! in an aquarium escape is impossible.

Another argument you use which is flawd beyond belif is you saying that since they kill in the wild they should also kill in your home aqaurium. How many people feed their dogs live food, in the wild dogs kill and hunt??? GO to any Zoo.. how many lions who have strong instincts to kill and tear apart prey are fed live animals?? You no what ZERO Zoos feed lions live food.. But you would wouldnt you Hyphen?


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

sharkfan said:


> Hyphen you my friend seem to be deeply lacking in comprehending what nature is. You have simulated a sort of natural enviroment for your fish in your aqaurium I agree 100% with that. BUT you have not simulated nature not even close. Nature is more, much more than the 50 gallons of water you have in your tank.. the rodent would have trees, leaves, rocks birds and all sorts of other things that would play a part in how it would act around water, and if it fell in, it would have a chance to escape!!! in an aquarium escape is impossible.


once again, you fail to comprehend ANYTHING that i wrote. you're still stuck in this littl ebox thinking that nature is only outside of the home aquarium. remove your brain from that box and realize that for your captive fish, that is now nature. it is now nature because that is how it exsists. there is no other. it is not in the amazon, it is in your home. and because they are in your home and are living there, it is now nature to them. forget the whole simulation part. they live there and it is their home.

like i said a billion times, you need to look in the dictionary or come to grips what "nature" or "natural" means.



> Another argument you use which is flawd beyond belif is you saying that since they kill in the wild they should also kill in your home aqaurium. How many people feed their dogs live food, in the wild dogs kill and hunt??? GO to any Zoo.. how many lions who have strong instincts to kill and tear apart prey are fed live animals?? You no what ZERO Zoos feed lions live food.. But you would wouldnt you Hyphen?
> [snapback]810382[/snapback]​


when did i say that they HAVE to kill in the home aquarium? please, quote me where i said that. i BEG you to point out where i said that piranhas HAVE to kill. i'm urging you to point that out. lol. that, in itself, proves that you must have some sort of low reading comprehension.

trying to explain something to you is like trying to explain something to a brick wall. you're stuck in thinking one way, unable to come to grips with the abstract. pacman seems to be the only person here that is able to think outside of the box.


----------



## huntx7 (Nov 13, 2004)

This thread = owned by hyphen


----------



## renderstream (Apr 10, 2004)

You are attemtping to skew my meaning of "natural".

If you search the meaning of natural at dictionary.com you will find these results:

1. Present in or produced by nature.
2. Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions.
3. Not altered, treated, or disguised

Just by reading this definition we can conclude that live feedings in an aquaria is NOT natural for it contradicts almost every line of the definition meaning.

To contradict your arguement: Just because they act a certain way in captivity does not make it natural. For example, Cichlids in the home aquaria will take human formulated pellets, but would you call this natural? NO. Just because they will behave in a certain way in the home aquaria does not make it "natural"


----------



## Scrappy (Oct 21, 2004)

PacmanXSA said:


> Then I guess I have the right to kill you and your entire family right!?!? No one is prohibiting me; I can CHOOSE to do so. There isn't a YES/NO clear cut answer. Obviously by my opening statement you can see that there are gray lines when it comes to morality.
> [snapback]809525[/snapback]​


No you don't have the right to kill me or my entire family because it's prohibited by state and federal laws. There's no law prohibiting me from feeding a rat to my p's. That means there's no agregitous morality issue and the gov't allows me to decide if I want to feed my p's live food.

Even if there were no gov't, it comes down to inteligence. We, as humans, have the inteligence to capture other creatures and exhibit control over them. That's what gives us the right to do as we please.



PacmanXSA said:


> But why can't you just feed it something else with all the alternatives that you have? That's the question at hand.[snapback]809525[/snapback]​


What are the alternatives? Fish filets, flakes, pellets, or beefheart? All of them were living before they were processed. And they didn't die a nice death where they were processed. Ever see how they gut fish on the boats? Ever see how they kill cows at the slaughterhouse? How can you advocate alternate foods when those creatures died more painfully than what you object to?


----------



## Scrappy (Oct 21, 2004)

renderstream said:


> 1. Present in or produced by nature.
> 2. Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions.
> 3. Not altered, treated, or disguised
> 
> ...


So a rat is not indigenous to every part of the world where a p could possibly be collected from? There's not a good chance that a p would eat a rat swimming across a river? They both sound alot like "1. Present in or produced by nature."

So the rats we feed to our p's must be altered, treated or disguised?

What we called planned could be spontaneous from another perspective. P's are opportunistic, and don't know what we drop in their tanks. That rat was planned to us, but to a p it's a spontaneous opportunity.


----------



## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Atlanta Braves Baby! said:


> Very interesting read.
> [snapback]809392[/snapback]​


Indeed, and I've seen good point being brought up...









I'm especially surprised to see that we can discuss a controversial topic such as this one without resorting to flaming and disrespecting (ok, apart from the circus monkey that felt better than the rest and had to call others "sick fucks", but bad seeds are a fact of life anyways).


----------



## yorkshire (Jul 27, 2004)

So how many people have fed a live animal to their pet dog or cat?

If someone in the U.K. threw a live rabbit into a dog pen they'd be had up for animal cruelty,possibly facing a prison sentence, even though it could be argued that the dog would eat rabbit in the wild. The law would argue that it was unnecessary suffering caused to the rabbit. However, its legally ok to feed rabbit flavour pedigree chum, simply cos the rabbit is already dead.

so whats different in feeding live rats to p's.? Its unnecessary suffering caused purely for entertainment.

Just a thought, and yes i know i'm a hypocrit cos i put live tetra's in with my rhom :laugh: but my intention isn't to see them get eaten, if i was putting them in purely to see them get ripped apart then i'd count myself as slightly sick :nod:

Something else to think about is the fact that the vast majority of serial killers, or even just people with a diagnosis of dangerous and severe personality disorder have a past history of cruelty to animals which progressed to cruelty to people :nod: not sure what this has to do with the argument, but i think its an interesting fact.


----------



## Scrappy (Oct 21, 2004)

yorkshire said:


> So how many people have fed a live animal to their pet dog or cat?
> 
> If someone in the U.K. threw a live rabbit into a dog pen they'd be had up for animal cruelty,possibly facing a prison sentence, even though it could be argued that the dog would eat rabbit in the wild. The law would argue that it was unnecessary suffering caused to the rabbit. However, its legally ok to feed rabbit flavour pedigree chum, simply cos the rabbit is already dead.
> 
> so whats different in feeding live rats to p's.? Its unnecessary suffering caused purely for entertainment. [snapback]811187[/snapback]​


The point is that the alternative foods that some want us to feed to our p's have died an even more painful death than what a rat would.



yorkshire said:


> Something else to think about is the fact that the vast majority of serial killers, or even just people with a diagnosis of dangerous and severe personality disorder have a past history of cruelty to animals which progressed to cruelty to people :nod: not sure what this has to do with the argument, but i think its an interesting fact.
> [snapback]811187[/snapback]​


Cruelty to animals is just one commonality most serial killers have.You forgot mention the other two key ingredients, fire-setting and enuresis (bed-wetting).


----------



## yorkshire (Jul 27, 2004)

Scrappy, you are right with the fire setting and bed wetting......so how many people who feed live rats to their p's, wet the bed and set fire to things as well .............come on guys, own up :laugh:

i totally agree that the alternative meats have been killed in some way also, possibly even suffered a more painful death. My point was that you can be prosecuted for feeding a live rabbit to a dog, and i cant see any difference between that and feeding live rats to p's.

personally im not saying its right or wrong......just something i choose not to do.


----------



## huntx7 (Nov 13, 2004)

I've set fire to a lot of things, never wet the bed since I was 1ish... my p's eat krill, but there's tetras in there to keep them busy.


----------



## KeemCambell (Jun 7, 2004)

huntx7 said:


> I've set fire to a lot of things, never wet the bed since I was 1ish... my p's eat krill, but there's tetras in there to keep them busy.
> [snapback]811351[/snapback]​










serial killer!


----------



## sharkfan (Oct 22, 2004)

Hey Judazzz.. Just to clear up again.. my coment about people being "sick fucks" I am not calling anyone who feeds a rat to their P a sick f*ck.. not at all!!! In fact if you beleive that your P wil get some kind of nutrition that it cant get from another source go for it.. I am calling people who feed thier Ps rats ONLY for the sole pleasure of watching the animal suffer sick fucks.. please understand that there is a huge difference. It is all about your intentions.. if your intentions are to help your ps be healthy.. go for it. ok.

The other point people keep making is that alterantive food comes from fish or perhaps animals that are killed in brutal ways.. all i can say is that these aninals are not killed for the joy of watching them suffer... they are killed for food. It is just my opinion but i thnk there is a huge distinction and i can tell most dont agree with me.. of kiling an animal for reasons such as food clothing etc or just killing for enjoyment. Again my example of Zoos.. they have very predatory animals.. but they dont feed them live food... it would inhumane and they would be closed down.. they may feed snakes live rats because snakes will not eat dead rats and the snake wuold starve if it does not get a live rat.. but if the snake would eat nonliving food the zoos would feed nonliving.. No reason to have an aninal suffer when it is not absolutly necessary.


----------



## flash! (Aug 10, 2004)

[quote name='hyphen' date='Dec 22 2004, 12:41 AM']
i don't suppose you think that flakes and pellets were made from mystical herbs plowed from the earth.




















































I just love the mystical bit!

D!


----------



## Dylinger (Dec 11, 2004)

I plan on feeding my reds live food for the entertainment. I do not however consider myself sick. I feel bad for the fish that die slowly. I almost feel the fear. I don't like watching them die. I like watching the p's kill.

I would watch the death of Saddam on TV if they showed it. I would feel bad if they tortured him, yet I would watch it. In fact I would pay to see it on Pay per view.

This may be a bit twisted for you to handle. To me that makes you close-minded. You cannot grasp the entertainment. Most people who feed live food can understand why people don't like it, or agree with it. This gives them the ability to debate. When you resort to name calling you are basically giving up. You have nothing further to contribute and therefore try another method.

I have nothing further, so blow me!


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

renderstream said:


> You are attemtping to skew my meaning of "natural".
> 
> If you search the meaning of natural at dictionary.com you will find these results:
> 
> ...


how so? i've provided reasons for my arguments. you just say, "you're wrong." there are no contradictions. let's break it apart, shall we?

1. present in or produced by nature: 1. piranhas are natural as are rodents. 
2. Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions: there is nothing artificial. the only things that would be artificial are the filters and the aquarium itself. but even the wild has boundaries. the amazon isn't some sort of endless river that abounds with piranhas. they're free from inhibitions, nothing stops them from eating that mouse. so where, why, and how does this contradict anything?
3. not altered, treated, or disguised: nothing is altered treated or disguised. everything is "normal." all that's happening here is we're putting a rat into an aquarium. seems perfectly normal to me.



> To contradict your arguement: Just because they act a certain way in captivity does not make it natural. For example, Cichlids in the home aquaria will take human formulated pellets, but would you call this natural? NO. Just because they will behave in a certain way in the home aquaria does not make it "natural"
> [snapback]810473[/snapback]​


just because they act a certain way in captivity doesn't mean it's natural? why is that? if an animal that is captive behaves in a certain manner on a consistent basis, how would that no be natural? wolves are wild dogs, when humans tamed them over many years and created different breeds, their behaviors changed as well. how is that not natural?

yes, cichlids eat pellets. how is that not natural? they're eating, period. YES, if they behave a certain way in aquaria, it IS natural. what it ISN'T is wild behavior. however, that fact that they're behaving the way they are makes it natural.

anyway, when you come up with a point and are able to actually argue it with reasons as back up, you can post a rebuttal.


----------



## renderstream (Apr 10, 2004)

You are trying to manipulate the meaning of natural. If something is altered, changed, or different from the way they are present in nature itself then it is infact UNATURAL.

A home aquarium is NOT a natural habitat because it is completely different then the habitat that is provided by the amazon. For one, a home aquarium has four barriers of glass. Is this present in the wild? In otherwords is it "Present in or produced by nature." ? NO.



> yes, cichlids eat pellets. how is that not natural? they're eating, period. YES, if they behave a certain way in aquaria, it IS natural. what it ISN'T is wild behavior. however, that fact that they're behaving the way they are makes it natural.


NO! Your arguement is completely false. When cichlids eat pellets, it is NOT natural because they do not do this in an "unaltered environment" from its natural state. Although it may be "natural" to the environement of captivity, but it is not natural if you compare it to the amazon.

You have obviously misunderstood the meaning of "natural".


----------



## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

no, it's you that misunderstands the meaning. it doesn't matter WHEN they do it, the fact that they do it means it's natural. so an elephant is captured and put into a zoo. he's uncomfortable so he starts ramming the other elephants. this is "unnatural"? lol.

dictionary.com is right they bud. go read the definitions.


----------



## renderstream (Apr 10, 2004)

Ok, give me an example of something that is NOT natural.


----------



## Scrappy (Oct 21, 2004)

sharkfan said:


> Again my example of Zoos.. they have very predatory animals.. but they dont feed them live food... it would inhumane and they would be closed down.. they may feed snakes live rats because snakes will not eat dead rats and the snake wuold starve if it does not get a live rat.. but if the snake would eat nonliving food the zoos would feed nonliving.. No reason to have an aninal suffer when it is not absolutly necessary.
> [snapback]811640[/snapback]​


A zoo won't feed thier predators live food because they're too valuable to get hurt. If a zoo fed a zebra to a lion, there's a chance the zebra could kick the lion in the jaw, which would pretty much be fatal in the longrun.

Same deal with wolves. When you feed them live prey they have to chase down the animal and kill it, there's alot that can happen when they're chasing down an animal. Then you have to deal with the aggresive behavior after the kill. There'll be fights over the pecking order of who eats first.


----------



## Scrappy (Oct 21, 2004)

yorkshire said:


> Scrappy, you are right with the fire setting and bed wetting......so how many people who feed live rats to their p's, wet the bed and set fire to things as well .............come on guys, own up :laugh:
> [snapback]811333[/snapback]​


I'm bedwetting away from being psycho, hahah.


----------



## scottyd (Oct 10, 2004)

yorkshire said:


> So how many people have fed a live animal to their pet dog or cat?
> 
> If someone in the U.K. threw a live rabbit into a dog pen they'd be had up for animal cruelty,possibly facing a prison sentence, even though it could be argued that the dog would eat rabbit in the wild. The law would argue that it was unnecessary suffering caused to the rabbit. However, its legally ok to feed rabbit flavour pedigree chum, simply cos the rabbit is already dead.
> 
> ...


 I can see your point... and this post is not directed to the poster in general..
The above quotes....Would mean ALL snake owners will end up sierial killers etc, as most snake owners feed thier large snakes live food..

The UK Argument means nothing, in the USA we have rights, we are not controled by the imperialist liberal elite pupets of the kings and queens...
Goingto jail over a rabit would be idiotic..

We do have our share of them and Animal rights friutcakes..
I do not dislike the people, we just don't have the same way of thinkiing, I do not get on a animal rights whaco message forum and try to presuede them to change...
I can't see why they need to come here and change piranha owners...

There are a few rare exceptions, but most piranha owners don't buy fish with some of the most powerful jaws, and super razor sharp teeth on the planet just to feed em flake food.. might as well buy a Goldfish.
There are rare exception of people who buy piranhas who want to prove they can be pieceful, and just feed em flake food, there are also whaco's who get lions and tigers and feed them nothing live or not even meats.. and think they have domesticated it, then a year or so later while playing with the tiger, either get killed or if lucky, thier arm ate off... you CAN NOT stop nature..

piranhas in the wild may take a easy oportunity to eat a injured or dead fish, but I would wager that 99% of there food is healthy swimming fish and small/med animals...

Just watch the history channel, animals fall in the water ALL THE TIME...
the argument of putting a rat in a fishtank is pointless... they would probably get eaten in the wild if not by a fish, but some other animal, large birds, snakes, foxes, coyotes. so watching a piranha eat a rat "is" part of nature..,, they don't eat rats all the time, we aggree, but Hyphen didn't say he feeds it to them all the time....

Nature is violent, and bloody..... some people like "Sharkfan" want to stick thier heads in the sand and pretend we live in the "Flower"- "Garden of Eden"...
Doesn't mean you are a bad person, it is just some of us run away and others, face reality... the ones that face it will even try to attack or re-create it..

my only pet pieve with Hyphen is, why haven't you put a "rat feeding" video up yet?

scott


----------



## yorkshire (Jul 27, 2004)

i can totally understand people feeding live mice/rats to snakes, as a lot of snakes will only eat live food, my point is feeding live mice/rats to p's purely for the entertainment value. if your p's would only eat live food then fair enough, but to put an animal through such suffering purely for the owners entertainment is unnecessary imo.
might as well put a couple of starving third world kids in with the lions cos they are going to die anyway from malnurishment or some disease.We might as well get some entertainment from them dieing....after all, the lions would eat them in the wild if given the chance. Extreme example i know, but its basically what some people are saying.

just cos we have the ability to do something doesnt make it right.


----------



## The_Spoot (Nov 15, 2004)

I think I'll just stick with things that swim for food.


----------

