# Fury Videos: Helpful or Harmful?



## Clay (Feb 28, 2003)

I have to say that video is disturbing. It's exactly what's wrong with the aspect of keeping piranha. I'm not going to get on you about how you keep your fish, but since you have posted the video, you have obviously invited input. I think that is absolutely inhumane. Euthanization should have been implemented, IMO. The fact that you have the opportunity to provide a decent means of providing nutrition without resorting to $40 feeders tells me that you're immature and a foolish.

Take it for what you will. These are my opinions, nothing more.


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## Clay (Feb 28, 2003)

The video was not disturbing because of the gore. That doesn't bother me. It disturbs me that you think it's cool, oh, and also that your cd kept skipping.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I see absolutely no eduational value in this video or other videos displayed here if the sole purpose is entertainment.


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## SexyAdonis (Mar 7, 2003)

Clay said:


> I have to say that video is disturbing. It's exactly what's wrong with the aspect of keeping piranha. I'm not going to get on you about how you keep your fish, but since you have posted the video, you have obviously invited input. I think that is absolutely inhumane. Euthanization should have been implemented, IMO. The fact that you have the opportunity to provide a decent means of providing nutrition without resorting to $40 feeders tells me that you're immature and a foolish.
> 
> Take it for what you will. These are my opinions, nothing more.


 Uh oh, someone's going to impersonate Clay now!!!! Lookout, Clay!!

I voiced my opinion (same as yours) to MAD about a similar thing a few weeks ago and someone thought it was simply horrible and impersonated me in the chat room.


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

i don't understand what the fuss is ..the title speaks for itself...if you don't like don't watch it..problem solved..


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> piranha45 Posted on Apr 10 2003, 02:28 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MAD that was absolutely THE coolest feeding video I've ever seen. Absolutely-freaking-incredible. I love you
> 
> ...


I seriously doubt I qualify as an animal-rights activists. But I will tell you that this type of video play is the very reason why Oregon Department of Wildlife attempted to keep piranas banned in Oregon. All you are succeeding in doing is preventing other states from reversing laws because you are creating more fear among the populace that fears them anyway and making it harder for hobbyists who want to legalize piranas in their home states where they are illegal. Now if that is not clear enough for you or you think my statement is animal-rights activist in nature, then you are very sadly mistaken. Nor do you have the maturity to comprehend what testifying in a State Legislature against pirana fear is about it. Don't think for one minute that fish and wildlife officials do not visit this board or others that deal with piranas, afterall Pfury is advertised via OPEFE and you would be surprized how many state agencies visit my web site. Other than that, do what you want. I spoke my peace.


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## JesseD (Mar 26, 2003)

i dont see how anyone could think that video was an inhumane video or immature. piranha in the wild feed on all sorts of of things...living or non-living. regardless on how videos like that reflect upon pirnah fear or people trying to get owning piranhas legal in their home state, this is how the food chain works. i think that was an excellent video acting how they would in the wild and feeding...







Excellent Video!


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## Clay (Feb 28, 2003)

That's in the wild, not your tank. The food chain does NOT work by introducing other fish into cramped environments with predators waiting in the midst.

Oh, and I am NOT an animal rights activist, by any means. Would an activist have 12 geryi? I don't think so.

BTW, some of you may know me, and some of you may not, but I highly doubt that I am in a position to be spoken to as a newbie. Piranha45, thanks, I understand what a piranha website is about. As some of you know, I help run a rather large site, and I have done so for quite some time.

Like I said, this is my opinion, take it for what you will. My opinion focused on my reaction to the video, just as any of the favorable responses did. This wasn't meant to cause reactions to my reaction.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Clay said:


> That's in the wild, not your tank. The food chain does NOT work by introducing other fish into cramped environments with predators waiting in the midst.
> 
> Oh, and I am NOT an animal rights activist, by any means. Would an activist have 12 geryi? I don't think so.
> 
> ...


 Who talks to Tony Danza like a newbie?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> MAD piranhas Posted on Apr 10 2003, 07:52 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Frank did you get my PM?
> I would like to have a discusion about this.


 Yes I did and I reponded to it. I will relay part of my message here. For those of you that are salivating at the mouth at this _carnage_ just remember this: When the real activitists come to your door, particularly in your state legislature to enact laws to prohibit piranas and they use these vary same videos and remarks posted here to argue why people like you should not have these fish, don't say "we didn't know". Because then it will be to late. If you think I don't know what I am talking about then you clearly have no idea who you are speaking to. If you don't think it can happen, ask those in the northern states why their fish are prohibited and why there is an undertaking underway to prohibit piranas in more states so that it follows the same path of snake heads (Channa). When this starts to happen just remember who first told you. I will still have my piranas because I have earned the right to keep them and study them. You on the otherhand will have to do it illegal and suffer the consequences of it.

Good luck.


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

i thought they banned them beacause idiots were release them in our waters and killing the native fish same as for the snakeheads..not because of there aggression they have.but because of the destruction they do to nature if released.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

I feel as if Frank should start a thread regarding this topic in the lounge or piranha discussion. Then we can give this topic more considerating....but then again....is there even a debate/discussion here?


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

PACK raises what I assume to be a valid pt. From everything i've heard, the only reason piranha are illegalized is because ppl get tired of them and throw them into native waters. Hastastus if you can display *proof* that piranhas are ALSO banned for ethical reasons, then I'd like to see it; but I seriously don't think you can. I think your either grossly exaggerating this alleged ethics debate, or making it up altogether.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> piranha45 Posted on Apr 10 2003, 08:38 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> PACK raises what I assume to be a valid pt. From everything i've heard, the only reason piranha are illegalized is because ppl get tired of them and throw them into native waters. Hastastus if you can display proof that piranhas are ALSO banned for ethical reasons, then I'd like to see it; but I seriously don't think you can. I think your either grossly exaggerating this alleged ethics debate, or making it up altogether.


 Then you young man have never testified in a House Natural Resources Committe or Senate as I have done on numerous occasions.

Go visit OPEFE and do some research. My information including DNR testimony is all there for you to read.



> thePACK Posted on Apr 10 2003, 08:04 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> i thought they banned them beacause idiots were release them in our waters and killing the native fish same as for the snakeheads..not because of there aggression they have.but because of the destruction they do to nature if released.


It is more than that. When potential laws to prohibit species are instigated, numerous public hearings are held. In these hearings, information pro and against are provided. You will find that DNR uses its own scientists (mostly from American Fisheries Society) to use against ownership. Cited literature includes articles from TFH and other hobbyist magazines. In this day and age of internet web sites and ability to download videos much of what is on the internet can be used in this testimony. The only reason I was able to disprove ODFW was the fact they were ignorant of pirana names and behavior to include physiology. No one ever dared stand up to them before. So just banning them because of introduction is not the main issue, but only a small part of it.


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## Clay (Feb 28, 2003)

Do you guys not understand that the reason piranha are legal in Oregon is BECAUSE of hastatus? Did any of YOU guys take the time to fight the legality issues and state gov't? Didn't think so.


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

i totally understand..and i am very appreciative toward what franks has done and is doing at the present.but its only a video..kinda like going to the movies..do you want to see it or not..the title is self explained.ever seen faces of death..thats brutal but they show it and sell it..but its up to us wheather or not to view it..and i don't think a video will change the law....just stupied people in the past,that have ruined it for hobbist who enjoy keeping them... but its not for feeding them ..but dumping them in local river and ponds and destroying nature...is why i believe they have banned them from certain areas...


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

giovanni82 said:


> > ever seen faces of death..thats brutal but they show it and sell it..
> 
> 
> HaHa, the Faces of Death Videos are banned in 40 some odd countries, so using that as an analogy is sorta silly.


there you go COUNTRIES...not the U.S..

and you missed the point ..the point is that it is gruesome as mad video.(cuase it was gruesome).but its up to you to decide wheather or not to view such things....if its not to your liking.move on..and these are just my cents...these words are not intend for anybody.these are just my view


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> MAD piranhas Posted on Apr 11 2003, 05:27 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What everyone is not understanding is that I WANT to understand franks point. I WANT to know why these video's cause so many problems. I WANT to know why or how they can make a law based on someones movies they made. I just want to understand the valid points to this arguement. So I MYSELF can study it and base MY own apinion on the facts.. So I WANT as much information on this subject that frank or anyone else can contibute.
> Thanks


MP.....the video itself is harmless. I'm sure you have some pirana books laying around (if not you should). Schulte makes mention of Hollywood film companies staging events to show the piranas ferocity and then adding words and music to add to the fear factor. Then you have PIRANHA and PIRANHA II the movie. Do you have any idea how often I have been written or called by people asking me if piranas can live in saltwater? or even here in Oregon, the story of those two teenagers in the movie being eaten alive is being taken for fact. Pure nonsense, but there is a strong number of people who believe it. Why were piranas banned in California? Introduction was a minor factor (the fish were tambaqui) which the law was based on, but it was the testimony of other people who used movies (Frank Buck), old historical literature of the piranas ferocity (words) and many other written documents.

Now put that with this here into perspective. You have a video showing piranas eating other fishes. No big deal. NOW add comments that it is done for sport to see the blood pour out. Then you have mob mentality, encouraging you to add other animals to show the carnage so that they can add more words to the video. This is what bothers me and the sad message it is putting out to the public and why this would be used by DNR to show another reason why piranas should be banned. Get it?


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

piranhas in saltwater???sorry but that was just funny..but i understand and i knew that was your purpose.


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## RhomZilla (Feb 12, 2003)

Salt water piranhas.. betcha they'd have even better looking colors and characteristics.

BTW: Frank, in the movie Piranha.. wheren't those actual Pacus being filmed? Not the real thing? I read something about it a while back, but just wanted to clarify it. Thanks!!


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

I can see both sides of the discusion here.I enjoy my piranha's and hate the fact that I have to break the law to own them.







most of that is due to steriotypes of piranha's acting like the ones in mad's video's.the government fears what they don't understand.if they see this video, they assume thats what all piranha's do even when thier are only a few in a tank. Im in a state that is so narrow minded that tatoo's have only recently became legal.

but on the other hand way back when we all got our first piranha's we wanted them to show some reall agression and tear things up.but when I try to show off my piranha's they let me down, they never would even eat infront of my friends.







what they really wanted to see was mad's piranha's.









I thought the video was entertaining.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> thePACK Posted on Apr 12 2003, 08:03 AM its very amirable seeing some one put time and effort into something they like and to also help others better understand these beautiful creatures..thanks


 You have touched on the most important part of everything I have been working on all my life. These critters are beautiful and more time should be spent admiring what nature has given us, plus expand on what we can learn from them and less on what we humans have portrayed them as blood thirsty creatures.

Thank you for the kind compliments.

Frank


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## Clay (Feb 28, 2003)

I am glad that this was able to be discussed in an adult fashion expressing both sides to this issue.

goobers.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)




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## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

I will be the first to admit that it is cool that our fish are capable of ripping things to shreds. What draws me even more is the mystique of the piranha. A healthy specimen of any of the species is just an amazing thing to behold. Even if they hide all day and scatter when you approach, appreciation is intensified when you are actually graced with their beauty.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

EVERYONE, THIS TOPIC WAS COPIED AT THIS POINT from a discussion in the Unleash the Fury videos. I wanted to open it up here as there are some valid points brought up and I would like this topic to gain more exposure. Please contiunue this discussion in a positive manner.

What are your thoughts?


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

as PFurys resident veggetarian I would like to say that the fact these are on video is a good thing as it means less people will need to see what happens themselves as they can watch the vid.

also on a realistic note most of you guys will eat meat and fish - you have the choice not to, but your piranhas don't.
isnt it a bit silly to be complaining about piranhas being fed, when you most likely eat more ex-living things yourself


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

The first couple of times I saw those vids, I was pretty amazed and startled by the piranha's capabilities to take down large live prey, and to actually see their eating methods from close range (it's not exactly an everyday occurence to see p's take down a mouse.....)
But after a while (pretty quickly, actually), it starts getting old, imo. The novelty wears off quickly, as does the amazement. One vid of a mouse being killed and eaten is ok, but why 10 or 20.....? It's just varieties of the same thing, over and over again.
Nowadays, I don't watch new vids anymore, especially since people get more and more skilled in taping the most gruesome details, which is not exactly my cup of tea..... The one with which it all started was pretty neat, because it was the first time I saw something like that, but I don't feel the need to watch it over and over again, and I certainly don't need to see three-legged mice or guts or whatever gore floating around in a tank.

The reason why I started keeping piranha's is, and I won't lie about it, because I was drawn to them because of their reputation (what did I know about them back then, apart from exactly that!) But I quickly realized (and learned on the discussion boards) that there's so much more to them than just maiming animals, and that's the true reason I appreciate these magnificent critters. The fact that they are able to take apart 'large' animals is nice, and I still do feed my reds feeders once a week: partly as a treat, and to keep them in touch with the 'natural piranha' within, so to speak, and also partly for personal entertainment (not because of the blood and gore, but because it's a cool site to see them going after and hunting down their prey, to see the predator 'at work'). But the main reason why I'm still fascinated by them is because it seems like I'm still learning somethingh new about them every day, and they never cease to amaze me with their appearance, behaviour and every other aspecty...

To get back to the vids, I'm not exactly sure what the underlying reason for this post is, X: are we discussing the fate of those vids on pfury (wheter they should be removed or not), or the ethics behind all this?
I understand all pro's and con's people have brought up (and there seem to be plenty valid points from both sides), and to be honest, I really wouldn't care that much if they would disappear. If they'd stay: fine too. Should there be added even more vids to the site: imo, no.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Judazzz said:


> To get back to the vids, I'm not exactly sure what the underlying reason for this post is, X: are we discussing the fate of those vids on pfury (wheter they should be removed or not), or the ethics behind all this?


 both.


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Personally I think the vids lead to the wrong reasons for owning P's. I know that perhaps 99.9% first bought a P for the killerness/aggression associated with them but somewere along the line, you have to be able to appreciate your fish for more then how big of a rat they can eat, or how long a mouse will live. I know that it may be interesting initially, but gets old really fast. Eventually, and this is speaking in ideal terms, one can make the transition from enjoying your fish for being killers, to enjoying your fish for everything else. P's are very interesting fish, that dont need a Rat VIDEo to prove it.

In some sense I think that videos of this kind serve to kick back the hobby a few steps. In that they only perpetuate unneeded stereotypes of fish that already are largely misunderstood.

However, it is kinda hard to argue the fact, espeacially since this site was based on that first video. I personally could do without them, as I really dont offer my P's any live food anymore (even nasty a$$ goldfish).

I think it boils down to type camps in the P world. Those that have p's because they are killers, and those that consider themselves "fishkeepers". There are two big differences in the two, and it is very easy to tell the difference between them. There is nothing wrong with the first group, as all P owners have been one of them. BUT... eventually you rise above and beyond and find yourself in the latter.

~Dj


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I havent seen the video of debate if anybody would like to PM a link to it please?

I dont think that a video of cruel carnage on the net will get the fish banned somewhere it already isnt, now if the video happened to played on national TV on at prime time on a major channel and millions saw the video then something probably happen, but not from a few thousand people seeing it


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

i thought the whole reason this site started was to show a fury video. why turn your back on it now?
wes


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

PIRANHA KING said:


> i thought the whole reason this site started was to show a fury video. why turn your back on it now?
> wes


 Personally I think that you have a very valid point PK. I dont fancy the videos, but I believe this site serves a greater good to the hobby in its information spreading. I just dont read threads that are labeled as such. I do believe they, dont help the hobby, perhaps instead hurt it. However its two sides of the same coin. Both heads and tails comprize the quarter, and so do both camps in this arguement define the hobby. Perhaps the hobby would not be where it is without the carnage to entice new hobbiest. Those hobbiest eventually, with time, get more into the Piranha as a fish aspect and bring the hobby to new levels.

Carnage lovers and Fishkeepers

They go hand in hand. One could not exist without the other. Niether side will concede to the other....

~Dj


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

PIRANHA KING said:


> i thought the whole reason this site started was to show a fury video. why turn your back on it now?
> wes


 nobody is turing their backs on anything. We are having a discussion about the value of such videos, Nothing more.


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## Clay (Feb 28, 2003)

MAD piranhas said:


> I had one point I would like everyone to know. Clay said
> 
> 
> > That's in the wild, not your tank. The food chain does NOT work by introducing other fish into cramped environments with predators waiting in the midst.
> ...


 I am not comparing these fish to fish in the wild. You did. You pointed out that this was the natural order of things, and I rebutted saying that your home aquarium is NOT the wild.

As an aquarist, you certainly have a responsibility to maintain and care for those fish. Leaving them in a tank for months without feeding is certainly unacceptable. I understand that fish will eat other fish. That's what they do. However, I feel that if you're going to be a responsible aquarist, you have an obligation to be humane about it. Feeding feeders isn't inhumane, IMO. However, feeding large feeders and allowing them to gasp for 20 mins with only half of a body remaining is just poor.

As far as the "lawmakers" seeing your videos, I don't think they will. However, it does promote that "ghetto-style" carnage that leads to the fears and myths about piranha. We all know they are dangerous fish, however, I think most of us know that if properly studied, alot of the fears and myths can be disspelled concerning them.

Comparing this to tigers and lions certainly isn't valid. Do you see them drop a cow in the tiger den at the zoo? Didn't think so. I like to see carnage, but I'd rather see it happen naturally, and not in a forced arena. How about c*ck fights? What about piranha fighting to see what's tougher? There are people here in DC that do fight them, and to me, it's not much different than your video.

I keep snakes, and I feed them rats. It's what they eat. If there were alternate food sources, I might be inclined to feed them those. However, there aren't. Piranha don't apply. They have a much broader spectrum of what they will eat. I feed my snakes frozen/thawed or freskly killed mice/rats. Where is the harm in that? The rodents are bred for that purpose. Feeders are also bred for that purpose, and fish that will only eat feeders should be eating feeders. Again, piranha don't fall into this category.


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## giovanni82 (Jan 29, 2003)

> let alone any type of animal.


I know you mentioned before the thought of throwing in a kitten in your tank when you had those 40 some RB's, If you wouldva done that and taped it, and I knew where you lived, I would of called the cops on you for animal cruelty. Rats, feeders, crickets and the like that are sold to be eaten by another animal is fine IMO, but if you or anyone on this site would do the kitten thing, it would really really piss me off.


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> I dont think that a video of cruel carnage on the net will get the fish banned somewhere it already isnt, now if the video happened to played on national TV on at prime time on a major channel and millions saw the video then something probably happen,


 true, if it was shown on national tv it would have a both positive and negative affect.

negative:







more laws banning theres fish may go into affect if enough people protest. it seriously could happen, you seen what happened to the snakehead fish.

positive:







think of the advertizing, it would cause many interested in piranha's to join piranha-fury, and who knows maybe they will learn something.

I don't think feeding a piranha a mouse is any different than feeding a snake a mouse. the outcome is the same.

I think the video's should stay, for entertainment only. maybe a disclaimer should be posted?


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

nitrofish said:


> I don't think feeding a piranha a mouse is any different than feeding a snake a mouse. the outcome is the same.
> 
> I think the video's should stay, for entertainment only. maybe a disclaimer should be posted?


 i hope so too







not everyone one agrees in life ..and as said he you don't like ..don't look


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## giovanni82 (Jan 29, 2003)

MAD,

I was actually referring to this infamous thread:

http://www.piranha-fury.com/forum/pfury/in...t=ST&f=5&t=2481

where you said


> I was gonna go for a cat but I thought many would reject


But hey, its all good, Im glad you would never do that. I just saw on a different post recently someone said they would like to see a cat fed, and it just bothers me, read my sig and you'll know why And im pretty sure you could get in trouble for doing that to a cat, I mean you are killing it, and torturing it in the process.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> MAD piranhas Posted on Apr 17 2003, 07:24 AM ....It makes no sense, and after frank stated his opinion it makes even less sense to me. I'm not supposed to feed my Piranhas live food, or video tape it because some stupid law maker misunderstands the fish itself? See my point. I


Its very late and I should have gone to bed 20 min. ago, but I will reply to Mad Piranhas remarks in the sometime in the late morning or early afternoon.

Night all.


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## RhomZilla (Feb 12, 2003)

We should just state it as Documentary Tutorial, so that it doesnt seem purposly intended.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

MAD piranhas said:


> > However, I feel that if you're going to be a responsible aquarist, you have an obligation to be humane about it. Feeding feeders isn't inhumane, IMO. However, feeding large feeders and allowing them to gasp for 20 mins with only half of a body remaining is just poor.
> 
> 
> How so? because its not human in your mind. Is there a law that say no feeding large feeder fish? There's nothing to say I can't do it. You are agrueing for the sake of argueing. There is no point in what you said, It is only your opinion. And the are my fish, I can feed them what I please.


 There is a point in what has been said:
there _is_ a difference between feeding your piranha's 'bitesized' feeders that are killed and swallowed in two bites, with nothing left (swift and 'clean', so to speak), and feeding them a fish (rat, mouse, or whatever) that is too big to be eaten whole, leaving a half-eaten fish that's still alive for quite some time (causing a slow death and, if fish do feel pain, a lot of suffering: regardless of that, it is cruel).

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here: I'm just trying to say that there's indeed a difference between feeding feeders and feeding feeders, if you know what I mean.....


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## lastyboy (Apr 14, 2003)

Its all about personal censorship-if you dont like to see then dont watch.


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## Clay (Feb 28, 2003)

> QUOTE
> However, I feel that if you're going to be a responsible aquarist, you have an obligation to be humane about it. Feeding feeders isn't inhumane, IMO. However, feeding large feeders and allowing them to gasp for 20 mins with only half of a body remaining is just poor.
> 
> How so? because its not human in your mind. Is there a law that say no feeding large feeder fish? There's nothing to say I can't do it. You are agrueing for the sake of argueing. There is no point in what you said, It is only your opinion. And the are my fish, I can feed them what I please.


Yes, this is all my opinion, and I have always stated that in my replies. Look right there, I say IMO (In My Opinion). And yes, you can do what you like with your fish. That's a statement I have made as well. Please read back and see that. I don't refute your right to do with your fish as you please.

Remember, before the thread was split, YOU asked for opinions on your video, and I gave mine. Does that make me the bad guy for having an opinion? I don't think it does, but you seem to think so because it's not "wow, that's the coolest ever, MAD."

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm making a point about the humanity and responsibility of keeping fish. You don't see a difference in feeding thawed shrimp or catfish filets and feeding a large fish and watching it slowly die while it gasps on the floor of the tank?

The point you brought up about snakes I answered. I feed them humanely. I feed my fish humanely as well.


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## Clay (Feb 28, 2003)

As far as not having feeders in your area, if you have a grocery store, there is always seafood/beefheart on sale.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

I, for one, like the videos and like the carnage and like watching living things get ripped apart needlessly. You may call it inhumane, disgusting filth, but I call it quality entertainment.

Note however, that this statement does not denote my full attitude towards piranha or other aggressive fish in general. The fact that such predatory creatures CAN make a gruesome show out of a living organism, however, is definitely a significant reason for keeping them.

As for the welfare of a mouse or feeder fish, I am totally indifferent.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I will add that there is a disclaimer look at the top of the forums page. I personally will never feed my piranhas rats or other rodents, or at least I doubt it. I mostly feed them meats from the grocery store. I do feed occasional frog and feeder fish. I dont have a problem with the videos at this point, I could see where a line would be crossed if somebody were to feed a baby dog or cat and there was alot of blood and carnage but thus far the videos I have seen arent too graphic


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> lastyboy Posted on Apr 17 2003, 11:54 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Its all about personal censorship-if you dont like to see then dont watch.





> MAD piranhas Posted on Apr 17 2003, 07:24 AM ....It makes no sense, and after frank stated his opinion it makes even less sense to me. I'm not supposed to feed my Piranhas live food, or video tape it because some stupid law maker misunderstands the fish itself? See my point. The snakeheads were banned because some dumb ass threw some in a pond and they were eating up all the game fish.. Thats why the snakeheads were banned...But hey, its all good, Im glad you would never do that. I just saw on a different post recently someone said they would like to see a cat fed, and it just bothers me, read my sig and you'll know why And im pretty sure you could get in trouble for doing that to a cat, I mean you are killing it, and torturing it in the process.
> 
> I was actually trying for some humar, But i read it and it is worded wrong, and i am sorry about that. I will change it..


"Every fish introductions, whether accidental or intentional, often produce unintended, if not disastrous, results. Seeking to avoid or limit exotic introductions, all 50 states of the USA have enacted laws prohibiting release of nonnative fishes. Many states have also adopted additional policies restricting the sale, possession, or transport of specific fishes they consider to be especially dangerous (fishery law enforcement officials from all 50 states, personal communication). While many of these prohibited species are restricted on the basis of ecologoical concerns, others are targeted for less tenable reasons. The most infamous of this latter groupd may be the South American piranhas (Family Characidae), which are prohibited in 24 states (Figure 1) largely because of their reputation as extremely dangerous predators capable of attacking and killing large animals, including humans (Roosevelt 1914; Fontenele 1963; Myers 1972)."

Ok that it is taken from the American Fisheries Society, Transactions bulletin. I chose not to retype the entire packet because it appears in this discussion some of you will continue to disagree in how your videos WITH COMMENTS will even impact any future attempts by F&W. Anyway, you all do what you want, all I can do is enlighten you what is happening behind the scenes. I will say it again, none of you have the experience I have had in testifying in behalf of the piranas in court and in the legislature. If you turn a blind eye, then it is on you, not me. I have given you the information, much of it is cited at OPEFE, yet you argue why these videos are important to you. Well, I'm sure the day will arrive where these videos and comments will also be important to F&W. Take it or leave it, not going to lose any sleep on it.

As for you Mad Piranhas, I have said it very simply that your videos are harmless, BUT NOT THE COMMENTS THAT FOLLOW IT (see your own quotes above). If you still have trouble with understanding that, then your concept of comprehending things really needs to be thought over more carefully.

I've said all I'm going to on this topic.


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## DiXoN (Jan 31, 2003)

i am not going to comment on either yes or no to the videos as i think enough has been said on that point but as for the remark this site was built on the mouse video i think this site is well past that stage now .
a lot of valid points have been raised on this issue and i suppose it is up to xenon in the end if they stay or go 
dixon


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

InSinUAsian said:


> I think it boils down to type camps in the P world. Those that have p's because they are killers, and those that consider themselves "fishkeepers". There are two big differences in the two, and it is very easy to tell the difference between them. There is nothing wrong with the first group, as all P owners have been one of them. BUT... eventually you rise above and beyond and find yourself in the latter.
> 
> ~Dj


 What camp am I in?
being a vegetarien who never feeds his piranhas live food?









I do however have no problems with the size of fish used in the videos, but when the fish is suffering for prolonged periods of time it is cruel







and should be killed humainly.
if whatever is "lunch" is killed quickly I have no problems with it whether it is a fish, mouse, cat or horse - for to me these creatures are all equal, and I don't side with cats because they are cuter than rats - as that is a really silly argument of "what animal do I like best"

I think in terms of the laws in the USA - they are stupid if they make up laws due to myths and reputations which are simply untrue, but if these laws are made because people release them into the wild then I understand it better.
and if the laws are simply made to stop people feedinf live animals to piranhas - couldn't they just make that illegal - as here in the UK it is illegal to feed a piranha with a neon tetra or a goldfish or any other live animals or fish - I think you are allowed to use some insects or dead things

I would also like to add that I have not seen the video in question as my computer is not up to it.

I think that the fact that the videos are on a site like this one, where their is a lot of piranha information is a good thing, as it means that anyone who sees the videos will be able to discover that piranhas are not as mean as their reputation, and it might actially help to dispell these beliefs that many uninformed people have.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Innes said:


> I think that the fact that the videos are on a site like this one, where their is a lot of piranha information is a good thing, as it means that anyone who sees the videos will be able to discover that piranhas are not as mean as their reputation, and it might actially help to dispell these beliefs that many uninformed people have.


 I don't think that will ever happen....
People who are really looking out for proof and arguements why p's should be banned in states in which they are legal yet, will not read into the matter they can find here (how to take care of them, what tank requirements, about their character etc. etc.), because they have their 'crusade' to bring to an end (ie. making sure p's become illegal).
All they will do on a site like this one is looking for evidence to support their arguements, and they'll find plenty of evidence (well, in their eyes) here! Just think of the impact vids like these will have in Court: people will see a small number of p's shredding up rodents or large fish. In no way even a million webpages will counterbalance that...
And I think only suggesting what could happen if released p's (wheter they're indeed around or not is apparantly not important) started multiplying and spreading would be enough, I guess......


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## giovanni82 (Jan 29, 2003)

I hate to harp on the issue of cats, but come on Innes.



> and I don't side with cats because they are cuter than rats - as that is a really silly argument of "what animal do I like best"


Until they start selling 'feeder' cats at pet stores, this is nonsense. You can't see the difference in feeding a cat or a dog to a piranha then a rat or goldfish???


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

giovanni82 said:


> You can't see the difference in feeding a cat or a dog to a piranha then a rat or goldfish???


I perfectly understand what you mean here. But at the same time perhaps then it would be perfectly okay to continue slavery of african american people if they were born into it and bred for that sole purpose. White people, on the other hand, since never bred for slavery would be excempt, only because of circumstance.

An animal is an animal. A cat is a cat, a rat is a rat, and a fish is a fish( I feel like dr.suess). Its hard for any of us here to argue a life is a life, but that is what it basically boils down to. You cant put a price tag on life, but for our convinence , moral value (what we deem cute and cuddly), or entertainment we will. Picking and chooseing, again for our convinence, what will live and what will die.

We are top of the food chain, so we have every right. Right?









Again, dont get me wrong, I am not making either arguements, as NO P owner can fully be one or the other. P owning and Prolife are just two words that cannot be used in the same sentence. But as mature, educated, adults you have to be able to pull yourself away from a situation and see the whole picture.

Life is life

~Dj


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## thoroughbred (Mar 14, 2003)

while i totally understand where frankl is coming from(without u it'd be way harder to keep p's i applaude u) but maybe im just desensitized that video really isnt that bad ive seen worse on discovery channel or one of those fox shows(when sumthin attacks lol) but its just a part of their behavior which is why some poeple shouldnt own them becuase theyre only into the carnage and thats all and not into actually taking care of them or understanding them and to them thye suck but mads video are cool im 25 and i cant lie feeding my p's fishies soemtimes and when they get big enough mice i dont see is wrong no one complains when people feed theire snakes live rats when thye could feed them dead ones and theyre legalized everywhere and theyre are accounts of them eating childeren and i know for a fact way more than p's cause no one in the states have died of p's but snakes? yes! pitbulls, yes(and ive been raised on them and theyre great dogs just stupid people), scorpions yes!. but no accounts of p's killing anyone and the abopve animals ive mentioned are pets thats all im saying as the saying goes always a few bad apples but the majority of us are good ones i see on this site!!!!!














its a free country go mad do ur thing ill watch more of them eagerly but frank i understand and respect u more than u know learnign what ive learned abotu what u ahve done for p ownership in the states long live pfury i love u guys !!!!!!


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Question marks and exclamation points...but where are the periods? HaHaHa, J/K

Round and Round we go. There are OBVIOUSLY two sides and niether will convince or suceed to the other.

Keep the vids in the carnage forum, plain and simple. Those that want to watch it will, and those that dont want to watch them will obviously use the other 90% of this board. What else are we trying to get done here? Why are we having this debate in the first place? Are we gonna ban them? How, when prury.com was established to give those that wanted to see them an avenue to do so. There is another board that does not look to kindly on this kinda stuff, perhaps this is not the community for you if you feel the same. There is nothing else one can really do about the situation unless X decides to ban them. In which case a new site called PredatoryFury.com will pop up allowing any videos, much like this one did only months ago

There are moral and ethical questions at hand here. Like religion, you will never be able to convert someone that firmly believes in something otherwise. So we must find some way to peacefully co-exist.

Please dont mistake my words for supporting them, as I dont. I just feel that there will never be an end to this debate. All it does is breed anomosity between members. Pfury is a place that is about the hobby and spreading information. Come to the site and take away what you will. If something does not fancy you, dont bother with it.

(I just feel, espeacially with this debate, that more of a concious effort should be made by members and admins to keep those vids in the carnage forum.)

~Dj


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## DiXoN (Jan 31, 2003)

well said insinuasian these are my thoughts exactly and i think soon we need to hear the conclusion on this one as this could go on for ever .everybody has the right to their opinion and we seem to be getting a lot of them on this one .
it has also been quite a mature debate with a lot of valid points
dixon


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Well, I for one do not watch the videos because my reason for keeping these fish and my fascination with them is not enhanced by watching them inflict unnecessary cruelty. And, as Frank has so effectively put it, it is not necessarily the videos that will set back this hobby, but the posted remarks that follow them. I like to think this site is educating people, and explaining how to care for these remarkable fish. However, after reading some of the posts following the videos, I get the feeling some dont care about the fish at all, just watching them eat something alive and I find that sad. There is so much more to this fish than just its feeding habits. Piranhas fascinate me and I do like to see them hunt down feeder, but I am not into seeing something suffer. That is why I have chosen not to watch the feeding videos.
I think to compare this site now, and what it was 2 months ago is unfair. I am interested in seeing this sight grow into more than just a feeding video. I think X has wonderful job in expanding this sight to include one of the foremost experts on piranhas to educate us all on this amazing creature and I would like this sight to continue to grow. I do not think seeing what our fish can slaughter next will achieve this goal.

My 2 cents.


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

grosse gurke said:


> I do not think seeing what our fish can slaughter next will achieve this goal.


 I fully aggree with you GG. But answer me this one Q...

What first compelled you to the P hobby? I know its there carnage and aggression. I know that is what attracted all of us. You cant deny it. If P's did not have the reputation they did, I know that 99% of you would have never got one. Again, deep down you know its true.

Now im not gonna sit here and say its right, BUT it is the main reason that attracts new hobbiest. Hopefully, and this is idealy speacking, these new hobbiest make the transion at some point to responsible "fishkeepers" and appreciate P's for what they are. Not for how many rat videos can be made of them.

I feel your pain GG, as I dont believe in rat vids, but you have to admit at one point in this hobby you were at that level. Denying it would just be ignorance. BUT, at some point your evolved, rised, and advaced to a higher level then just watching you fish kill. Instead you now just "watch" your fish.

It is, I believe, the natural evolution of the hobby. You cant have one without the other.

~Dj


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## SERRAPYGO (Feb 4, 2003)

InSinUAsian said:


> grosse gurke said:
> 
> 
> > I do not think seeing what our fish can slaughter next will achieve this goal.
> ...


 I know you directed this question at grosse gurke but, I'm going to answer this as a fellow piranha keeper.

Pure looks. That's my answer. I have no problem sleeping at night or looking myself in the mirror with that answer.

If I could get every one of my piranhas to eat pellets and live prosperously then, by god, that's what they would be eating.

Piranhas are gorgeous looking fish, and, there are the two types of keepers. Those that keep them to boost their masculinity, and, those that keep them for the true hobbyist aspect.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)




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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Serrapygo said:


> Piranhas are gorgeous looking fish, and, there are the two types of keepers. Those that keep them to boost their masculinity, and, those that keep them for the true hobbyist aspect.


I think that you think I support the other side. I assure you that I do not. I feed my spilos pellets everyother day pellets (hikarii gold) and the other days fish fellets. I am not a suporter of live food at all.

I did make these comments for those that forgot their roots in the P hobby thats all. There is no way that anyone will be able to rid the P hobby of vids or the desire to make them. So I made these comments in order to get all the members of this board to try to exist somehow in harmony. Doing what this board was meant to do, exchange info.

So then, I ask you, why are you questioning me? Im not the one arguing in favor of the vids, just that if they must exist, keep them in thier place.









~Dj


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

there will always be people who get their jollies off by watching one animal destroy another, and others that will call it "cruel, evil, inhumane, etc, etc.............."

personally I dont do it, but I dont mind it, I have seen several animals kill and eat others, from large cats, coyote, bear, fish, dogs, avg felines, piranha......... to me it doesnt make a difference as long as they dont subject youngsters to it and it doesnt warp their minds


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

whyd you erase what you said? i am not the 1%, i bought piranhas because my buddy showed me how his pack fucked some bluegills and sh*t up. i feed my fish feeders every week, but i try to stick to goldfish. i feel bad when i feed them other fish.
wes


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

PIRANHA KING said:


> whyd you erase what you said?


 That one line i said, I confused your with serra pygo cause you were the last one that posted. Mah bad...

Again, why is this directed at me? I dont support vids...

~Dj


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## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

the fury videos put me in a buying and expandin mood..... i just want to get more fish everytime i see something new.......... forget the "nay sayers" and make more vids


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Is it not clear the two sides to the coin? There are obvious differences in the way of thinking of both sides. Niether want to see eye to eye. I dont believe it is possible to see eye to eye.

I do believe that anyone posting in this thread is wasting thier time. The vids probly will continue to be. No amount of reasoning by me, or anyone else will change that. If there is not gonna be anyc hange, why do we continue to argue. Like I said before, it only stems more anamosity between members which we dont need. Just keep the vids in the carnage forums. Simple request, eh? I dont suport them, but if they must exist, keep them in thier place so that everyone is not subjected to them. They seem to find thier way into the pic forum.

I am done with this topic. I have been attacked for trying to be the peace mediator. Which I believe is a job for an admin, and as I am not, I shall bow out of this debate.

Topics like this push people away. Push perfectly good members, that have valid idea to share, away. This topic is what pushed many people from pfish.org into creating this site. Why are we repeating stupid and childish things. I really dont know why it has been allowed to proceed thus far.









Have fun with the dabate, as I am tired of it....

~Dj


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

MAD piranhas said:


> > negative: more laws banning theres fish may go into affect if enough people protest. it seriously could happen, you seen what happened to the snakehead fish.
> 
> 
> The snakeheads were banned because some dumb ass threw some in a pond and they were eating up all the game fish.. Thats why the snakeheads were banned.
> ...


 that and because of lack of understanding, otherwize the dewarf snakeheads wouldn't be banned.its that same type of thinking that worrys me.


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

InSinUAsian said:


> grosse gurke said:
> 
> 
> > I do not think seeing what our fish can slaughter next will achieve this goal.
> ...


true here, but they became much more after having them and learning about them.but the rumors are what interested me to get into the hobby.

im going to post a poll, im curiuos what the masses think.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

that sounds ok, I guess.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

InSinUAsian,
When I got my 2 first red bellies I was in college. This was in Oregon, before Frank got the state to legalize them. I got them because they were piranhas. I had never seen one in person, and knew nothing about them other than what any person walking down the street knows about piranhas. I never fed them anything live, it really never occurred to me. I was amazed by them and what they were capable of doing. My cat would sit on top of the tank and try to get them through the glass and one would continually try to get at her. That was enough for me. Sure there is the mystique of the piranha, but the reason I keep them now is that I think they are amazingly beautiful and the strength they portray. I love the body structure and color. I don't think any type of fresh water fish compares.
I do feed gold fish to my fish now, but nothing that cant be eaten quickly. I do get entertainment value out of it, I am in aw at the speed and viciousness at which they attack. But I do not want to see something needlessly suffer a slow death. 
I do not care what others feed their fish, that is up to them, and it is my decision not to watch it. However, what I do find a little disturbing, are the comments some make after watching a feeding video. I think there is so much more to this fish that people are missing out on because they are so focused on the damage they can inflict. I could be wrong, but this is how I see it.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

MAD piranhas said:


> I beleave the hole point for xenon putting this here was to get facts on why they should or should not be here anymore.
> 
> I beleave it would be fine if he removed all posts in the video topic, and then locked them so noone could respond or leave feedback.. I guess the feedback should be private as it is what concerns frank.
> 
> ...


 You dont have to "believe" anything. I told everyone that I put this topic here to get more exposure and see if we can get a larger audience of pfury members to share their opinions. Nothing more...

Now, as you claiming if I remove them 'I might as well shut this site down', I feel that is a little deragatory. To belittle this site simply as a showcase for feeding videos is insulting. Sure, it started out that way but I dont think I am alone in thinking we have evolved to a site that provides great advice and information on these creatures...not simply gory videos.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

grosse gurke said:


> I do not care what others feed their fish, that is up to them, and it is my decision not to watch it. However, what I do find a little disturbing, are the comments some make after watching a feeding video. I think there is so much more to this fish that people are missing out on because they are so focused on the damage they can inflict. I could be wrong, but this is how I see it.


I agree fully with that: and besides overlooking all the other cool piranha features, it's even potentially harmful to all other piranha-keepers in legal states, like Frank explained earlier. Video's, and comments(!) like the ones we find at pfury are exactly what people that want piranha's get have banned, are looking for... 
Like many say, one pic says more than a thousand (or in this case, a million) words, and it's images like these that keep the many (in reality false) myths surrounding piranha's alive...

I don't give a flying f*ck what people feed their piranha's (who am I to judge what people should do with _their_ pets?), but I think many people don't realise what the consequences of these vids can be, for themselves and, more importantly, for others that enjoy keeping piranha's for reasons other than just the entertainment factor.
It takes only one person that has to be offended enough to download a couple of vids like these (and the url of pfury) and take them to court, and shiz hits the fan!



> To belittle this site simply as a showcase for feeding videos is insulting. Sure, it started out that way but I dont think I am alone in thinking we have evolved to a site that provides great advice and information on these creatures...not simply gory videos.


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## Forked_Tongue (Feb 20, 2003)

As per usual I will keep this short and sweet...

I belive feeding videos are a good thing...However...I have always wanted a P starting from around 12, but i lived in NY and couldnt.. I moved to Indiana to go to school and saw the first p fish video... It stiimulated me back into the whole piranha thing. I got one red, didnt know what to feed it and thought it was way to small for anything live...so I asked on forums and got educated...I stasrted feeding it shrimp and beef heart chunks...i have learned alot since then about P's and they are the only fish i keep since they are the only ones that interest me...

Ocasionally i feed live mainly to keep them in tune with their natural side and sometimes but not often to show others what they can do. but after making my videos and watching ALL the others i have come to this realization... something that is to big or takes to long is inhumane...
When i filmed inner thoughts i felt bad for the mouse, and i know realize it was bad even if it did only live for 30 seconds swimming, 30 seconds was to long... and not as a personal attack but that huge feeder Mad fed was to big, i feel it was also inhumane but i am far from able to judge people.... i just sit here and look at what i have become from watching the videos and participating in them... a good fish keeper who cares more about the fish then what they eat and i firmly belive that everyone at sometime will have that same feeling and it wont matter what their P eats

sincerly
PatrickR
keep the vids


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## mdemers883 (Jan 9, 2003)

I highly doubt that if you remove your vids that mikes' site will cease to have activity. When I think of this site I think of the wealth of info it has on it, I don't even think of the vids. I don't even remember the last time I watched one of them, I still haven't seen the feeder vid. This is a great site and Mike is always working to improve it and I think that is the reason people come here.

mark


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

MAD piranhas said:


> Beleave what you want, remove them and find out.
> 
> I tell you what I'll remove all my video's.
> See what happends..


 Maybe people came here because of the video's in this board's initial phase (the vids were indeed used to plug this site), but I don't think that's valid anymore. By now, Pfury has build up a reputation of being a lively community and a good source for piranha information, and I truly believe that's the main reason why the member count is still rising rapidly...

btw: I don't think treatening to remove your vids will make a lickin' difference, but that's just my opinion....


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## mdemers883 (Jan 9, 2003)

please say that you don't have an ego big enough to think that the debate over your vids draws that much pull on this site. You are making it sound like if you remove your videos people are just going to leave. Don't know if you are doing it on purpose or not but your remarks are seeming like you are not appreciative of the time mike has put into this site, without mike there is no pfury.


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## cfr3 (Feb 20, 2003)

===============
Don't remove videos.
===============

Those were my fish that were filmed in the original video. I had the video on my computer as a 500 meg fie for people to watch. Mike realized that it would be cool to put it up on the web so he created this site and put the video we made up on it. It is absolutely true that the majority of people that originally came to this site came out of curiosity to see the video. Now that the site has grown, the original video and all the other vids are more of a novelty. This board is now a source for hobbyists to learn from experts (Frank) and discuss their experiences with other fellow fish keepers. The fact is though, some people do enjoy watching these videos. I don't believe that the vids are critical to the success of this board anymore, but removing them is a form of censorship and a way of forcing your will on others. I realize that these offend some people and there is a simple solution to this problem. Don't watch them if it offends you. The only good reason for removing the videos is that they *could* be used as arguments for the banning of piranhas in some places. I think that this risk is out weighed by the need for a forum with a free flow of thoughts and expression. Censorship is not the answer. The best thing to do is what this thread was originally intended to do, promote intelligent, civilized discussion as to the value of the videos, and not eliminate them.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

MAD piranhas said:


> Judazzz said:
> 
> 
> > MAD piranhas said:
> ...


 Some people may have came for the videos, but there are those that came for the info and for other such things such as advice. I dont think that the site has stoped growing, I think that it has leveled out to a steady pace as to how much it grows per day. There are still new members that join everyday, from what Ive seen. I dont check out much of the piranha forums on here as much as most of the users here, but from what Ive seen personally in the lounge...yes the post count and activity has gone down. Then you also got to figure who were the main post whores of the site when it was growing...It was John [USMC*sPiKeY*], bobme, judazzz, innes and marco. [Sorry if I left anyone out.] John left, as well as Marco almost completely stoped posting in the lounge and bobme is hardly ever around in there. As for Judazzz and Innes...theyre still around...but usually are busy posting in the other forums of this board.


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## (ActivePulse) (Jan 23, 2003)

Holy crap its just a video, like other people said before , if you don't like it then don't fu$#ing watch it , its only a mouse, you don't hear people talking about other people that own snakes and other animals that eat live mice!!! Once again its a Mouse , thats all, and a feeded mouse at that.
Yup thats what its called a FEEDER MOUSE!!!!!!!


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## SERRAPYGO (Feb 4, 2003)

InSinUAsian

My comments were not directed necessarily at you or anyone in particular. Just generalizing more or less. :smile:


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## SERRAPYGO (Feb 4, 2003)

(ActivePulse) said:


> Holy crap its just a video, like other people said before , if you don't like it then don't fu$#ing watch it , its only a mouse, you don't hear people talking about other people that own snakes and other animals that eat live mice!!! Once again its a Mouse , thats all, and a feeded mouse at that.
> Yup thats what its called a FEEDER MOUSE!!!!!!!


 This argument/tantrum has been siad before. How about a fresh (and calmer) approach?


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

cfr3 said:


> ===============
> Don't remove videos.
> ===============
> 
> Those were my fish that were filmed in the original video. I had the video on my computer as a 500 meg fie for people to watch. Mike realized that it would be cool to put it up on the web so he created this site and put the video we made up on it. It is absolutely true that the majority of people that originally came to this site came out of curiosity to see the video. Now that the site has grown, the original video and all the other vids are more of a novelty. This board is now a source for hobbyists to learn from experts (Frank) and discuss their experiences with other fellow fish keepers. The fact is though, some people do enjoy watching these videos. I don't believe that the vids are critical to the success of this board anymore, but removing them is a form of censorship and a way of forcing your will on others. I realize that these offend some people and there is a simple solution to this problem. Don't watch them if it offends you. The only good reason for removing the videos is that they *could* be used as arguments for the banning of piranhas in some places. I think that this risk is out weighed by the need for a forum with a free flow of thoughts and expression. Censorship is not the answer. The best thing to do is what this thread was originally intended to do, promote intelligent, civilized discussion as to the value of the videos, and not eliminate them.


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## WebHostExpert (Jan 16, 2003)

Most of my videos and pictures and posts have been removed, It will get the rest when I return from vacation.

Nolonger a member
MAD


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## marco (Jan 2, 2003)

MADD. i dont know about anyone else. but i will miss you man.

and im not here for "the lounge" im here to help people with piranha info. and yes i have stoped posting in the lounge. some members were getting fed up.

those red skullz of mine are bs....... and i only care for the love of the hobby. :smile:


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## marco (Jan 2, 2003)

i think this is all BS that your leaving man... why dont you stay dude? we all love you here man......


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I wanted to take a moment to let everyone know that Mads comment that posting has declined and the sight has quit growing is unfounded. The post count for the site has remained steady through the month of March and into April. I am not sure why he felt the need to post this, as he does not have access to the stats of the site.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Well, I just hope we dont see the next week's worth of post content revolving around MAD's departure.

yeah, he was a great guy. We'll all miss him. Now let's not let his departure stir up more absolutely pointless conversation *

im not yelling at anyone in particular, im just worried it'll spin off into another dozen threads


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## RhomZilla (Feb 12, 2003)

I still dont know what the deal was/is...


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

he was troubled and frustrated and aggravated that his videos stirred up so much controversy, and felt he was personally responsible for their defense. He got tired of repeating his defense arguments 500 times over within the past 2 months, and threw a fit. I don't blame him.

Now let's leave it at that and talk about more worthwhile things


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

To anyone that is still interested..... it seems that it turned out to be an eventful day on good ol' pfury. I was in a meeting all day for work and didnt have the privledge of observing these shenanigans in real time.

The thread "Unleash the Fury Videos: Helpful or Harmful" was created by me to open up a discussion about the videos, not a discussion about removing the videos. Frank and some of the other members on the site had an opinion that the videos were harmful for the hobby while some other members think they rock. I simply wanted to create this thread to introduce a little intellectual dialogue so that the two "sides" of opinion could come out and the members could have the opportunitoy to discuss.

Apparently one of our members took personal offense to this thread. The intention was not to single ANYBODY out. Keep in mind, me and cfr3 are the original mouse video people. If members that have made videos took offense to this I apologize.

Frank wrote me this to explain why the thread was created:


> it was Mad piranhas who wrote to me and even publically asked that I have a dialog with him in public for all to read and comment on. It was to be friendly learning experience.....because he (Mad) didn't not understand what I was objecting to and wanted to understand my view. -Frank


I think MAD Piranhas actions today were completely out of line. They were offensive to the site, its members, and the staff. I am deeply saddened that it seems I have lost a friend over this foolishness. But it has become apparent that MAD Piranhas involvement in the site is no longer positive and constructive. I want to personally thank him for everything he gave to the site in the time he was here.

-Xenon


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

First, let me say I did not single out Mad piranhas videos. As I clearly stated several times, I do not object to the videos themselves but the comments that follow them. Below is copy/pasted remarks where Mad piranhas PM'd me and contacted me via AIM to engage in this discussion, but as I stated in one of my posts yesterday, I was too tired to respond. If you follow other threads other than the below you will find the sequence of events where Mad encouraged me more to reply:



> MAD piranhas Posted on Apr 10 2003, 07:52 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Frank did you get my PM?
> I would like to have a discusion about this.





> Yes I did and I reponded to it. I will relay part of my message here. For those of you that are salivating at the mouth at this carnage just remember this: When the real activitists come to your door, particularly in your state legislature to enact laws to prohibit piranas and they use these vary same videos and remarks posted here to argue why people like you should not have these fish, don't say "we didn't know". Because then it will be to late. If you think I don't know what I am talking about then you clearly have no idea who you are speaking to. If you don't think it can happen, ask those in the northern states why their fish are prohibited and why there is an undertaking underway to prohibit piranas in more states so that it follows the same path of snake heads (Channa). When this starts to happen just remember who first told you. I will still have my piranas because I have earned the right to keep them and study them. You on the otherhand will have to do it illegal and suffer the consequences of it.


Lastly, I find it silly to ask for opinions and comments, to the extent of sending personal PM's if the only intent was to created a bad atmosphere of discussion, such as it finally turned out here. This topic thread was meant to discuss what my views were from science and legislative concerns and every one elses. Not to out and out ban videos.


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## Croz (Jan 29, 2003)

well i missed this whole thing today. I second that i will miss MAD and it sucks that he wont be around anymore.

as for the vids like a lot of other people said if you don't like the gore don't watch them. i for one like them and watch them its just interesting to see and know what your hobby could do to something if it wanted too.

you could go as far as putting a rating on all new and old vids like a 1-10 on the gore scale for people that like to watch some but thing some are over the edge.

but you know what almost everything that is fed to piranhas are labeled as feeders at you LFS some of these big feeders are to big for most tanks and half the people that but big fish at LFS don't have the tank size for such a fish or know how to care for it. so sometimes you are saving it from an horribe life in a small tank that it will die in because of lack of care and tank. i know i have seem many people by 10" oscars for a 20g tank. that is no worse than the 30 seconds it would tank for a shoal of piranhas to kill it. i for one will keep making my little videos of goldfish but i do have a nice size feeder waiting for my reds to get big enough.

again i am sorry to see MAD go and i wish him all the best and hope he decideds to come back one day. and as for the topic on hand if you don't like it don't watch it, if you like it watch it, if you want to make the video make the video.









Croz


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## acidsurvivor (Feb 7, 2003)

I was gone for a couple days...

I see a lot of events happend since I was gone.

I for one liked the videos. This what this site was mostly about, Fury. Just because a few people didn't like them, it shouldn't effect all of us not able to veiw them anymore.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

It is sad that it had to come to this, I think it started as a misunderstanding, but blew up out of porportion, and I think Xenon made the right choice and delt with it proffesionally.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

acidsurvivor said:


> I was gone for a couple days...
> 
> I see a lot of events happend since I was gone.
> 
> I for one liked the videos. This what this site was mostly about, Fury. Just because a few people didn't like them, it shouldn't effect all of us not able to veiw them anymore.


 This discussion is not about DELETING the videos!!!! How many times do I have to say this?!?!? We are NOT getting rid of the videos!!! This is not the issue. Please dont post "dont delete the videos" anymore. We are talking about the benifits or harm to the hobby that they do.....please people, lets stay on topic or this will be closed.


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## acidsurvivor (Feb 7, 2003)

I was implying that MAD deleted the videos himself. Not you deleting them.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

acidsurvivor said:


> I was implying that MAD deleted the videos himself. Not you deleting them.


 Yeah tru that. But if he wants to pull his support from this site thats his perogative.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

why does everyone accuse eachother of having big egos









I think there is alot of hostility and/ insecurity around


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> why does everyone accuse eachother of having big egos
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I have a big ego----> that is why I am not hostile or insecure


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Nate: From all that I've read I havent seen anyone accuse someone for having a big ego...
Did I miss something


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

yeah, u missed Innes doing the happy dance. He was doing it just 5 minutes ago, u shoulda seen it. He taps his feet all over the floor and spreads his arms out just before clapping them together. And he does it in a business suit with sunglasses. I'll try and holler at ya, next time I catch him doing it. Crazy lil bugger...


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Yeah who is accusing who of having a big ego?


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## SexyAdonis (Mar 7, 2003)

Okkayyy, I'm posting this a little late....

First off, I'm pretty goddamn surprised MAD left the board; perhaps this action is direct proof of what I originally called him way back when w/ our first 'meeting' on here.

Second....



> An animal is an animal. A cat is a cat, a rat is a rat, and a fish is a fish( I feel like dr.suess). Its hard for any of us here to argue a life is a life, but that is what it basically boils down to. You cant put a price tag on life, but for our convinence , moral value (what we deem cute and cuddly), or entertainment we will. Picking and chooseing, again for our convinence, what will live and what will die.


You realize this means that human life is equally valuable to an animal's life, whether it's a garden slug or Siberian tiger?



> , for one, like the videos and like the carnage and like watching living things get ripped apart needlessly. You may call it inhumane, disgusting filth, but I call it quality entertainment.
> 
> Note however, that this statement does not denote my full attitude towards piranha or other aggressive fish in general. The fact that such predatory creatures CAN make a gruesome show out of a living organism, however, is definitely a significant reason for keeping them.


Then what's wrong with serial killers and mass murderers and all that, don't they entertain you by ripping other humans apart? It's one life taking another life...great stuff to watch, right!!!

I dunno who ever said the above quote, but whoever it is must not be a great fishkeeper. In order to truly be good at something, you have to appreciate it on all levels.



> However, after reading some of the posts following the videos, I get the feeling some dont care about the fish at all, just watching them eat something alive and I find that sad. There is so much more to this fish than just its feeding habits.


EXACTLY!!!


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## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

you need to shut the hell up!!!!!! if you dont like all the fury in "PIRANHA FURY" then get the f*ck out!!!! mad's videos are the same things that happen in the wild......... he just happens to get them on video tape!!! leave it alone, you aint goin to win!!!!


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

> you need to shut the hell up!!!!!!


People have the right to voice their opinions on how they feel about the situation.



> if you dont like all the fury in "PIRANHA FURY" then get the f*ck out!!!!


What "Fury" do you speak of? Is it the videos? Because if it is the videos...not everyone came to see them. They came for other reasons too like help, advice, and assistance with raising their P's. Just because they object to the video's doesnt mean $#!t...their just videos.



> mad's videos are the same things that happen in the wild......... he just happens to get them on video tape!!!


Thats where your wrong. In the wild the animal that they [piranha's] choose to attack actually have the ability to try and escape. They are not thrown in the water with little mobility room.



> leave it alone, you aint goin to win!!!!


Who said anything about winning?! No one is trying to win anything here!


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## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

sexy adonis needs to stop this whole discussion about how she thinks the vids are wrong......... you are right, people are entitled to their own opinion, so why did she have to chastize MAD??? none of this would of happened if she wouldnt have criticized........... if her opinion is so negative that it forces MAD to delete the vids and leave the site, then she just should of kept them to herself..... plain and simple......


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

> if her opinion is so negative that it forces MAD to delete the vids and leave the site, then she just should of kept them to herself..... plain and simple......


However, MAD did NOT leave because of SexyAdonis' opinion. That would be too foolish to leave a board over ONE person's opinion on the matter. SexyAdonis had nothing to do with MAD and his departure. Nothing forced MAD to delete his videos. It was out his progative to do so. His point was that teh videos gave to a mass increase in member population. I think the point he was trying to make was that the site would pretty much die without his videos. So in which case he took them off as he left p-fury.


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## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

yeah, but it did have something to do with MAD deleting all of his awesome videos that i enjoy showing my friends......


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## giovanni82 (Jan 29, 2003)

What the f*ck are you talking about phensway?



> so why did she have to chastize MAD??? none of this would of happened if she wouldnt have criticized........... if her opinion is so negative that it forces MAD to delete the vids and leave the site, then she just should of kept them to herself..... plain and simple......


Here's a thought, think b4 you post, and you won't look like an asshole.


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## SexyAdonis (Mar 7, 2003)

Wow, I've just about forgotten my little tiff with MAD over his videos, and I'm sure he has too...yet here you are, still fuming. You need to get drunk and/or laid, pal.

All I'm saying is that people are scum...if someone wants to be entertained by death and violence at the hands of a living being, then rent Faces of Death or I Spit on your Grave....fun for the whole goddamn family!!!


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## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

and people are thinking that i am the crazy one for my reactions???


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## SexyAdonis (Mar 7, 2003)

People who know me well already know I'm crazy...but I'm crazy in a Hannibal Lecter way, not a John Wayne Gacy way.


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## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

i am so releived that you admitted that, its takes a strong soul....... so answer me this, if you are so damn crazy then why dont you like the crazy vids???


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## SexyAdonis (Mar 7, 2003)

Because I have class :








:


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> phensway Posted on Apr 19 2003, 05:47 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> you need to shut the hell up!!!!!! if you dont like all the fury in "PIRANHA FURY" then get the f*ck out!!!! mad's videos are the same things that happen in the wild


.

Actually its not how it happens in the wild unless humans condition the feeding response by cleaning fishes or animals in the open water in certain spots. That phensway is the only portion that might fit in to aquario idea that most inexperienced hobbyists think is fact. Its not. Piranas are scavengers that feed on sick, dying and dead fish or animals. A cleaning health squad just like written by Schulte, 1988. Their aquario behavior is dictated by how you feed and condition them.

The videos (all of them) basically perpetuate the same myth about piranas natural behavior. What makes these videos sad, is the replies that follow them. Pure human entertainment. That is the only thing that remains constant and the only lesson learned.

I'm posting this directed to you because you have in the past posted some good questions without the verbal abuse. I hope you will continue to do so without the verbal abuse in the future.


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## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

so what, i got class, i manage all A's in college with 18 credit hours, and i can still enjoy the vids...........


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## SexyAdonis (Mar 7, 2003)

Heh, that's not what 'class' means.


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## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

i respect that hast....... totally understandable....... and i see your point of view about the vids...... i totally understand that also...... you easily showed me the other side without me or anyone else being chastized...... i guess i was wrong....... thanks and sorry


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Nothing to apologize for. Its what this thread was supposed to be about. Listening to the _other side_ on this interesting topic.


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## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

a great conversation give much more respect to hastatus and giovanni, but sexyadolnis on the other hand, some people push the limits where there is a thin line between conversation and immaturity.......


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## giovanni82 (Jan 29, 2003)

Surely someone who got a 1600 on their SAT's has better grammar than this?



> a great conversation give much more respect


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## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

lmao, i give your props and you give me sh*t!!! was everything spelled correctly???? can i call you my english teacher??? should i capitalize??


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

phensway: It says your b-day is 15 April 1984 which would make you 19, how can you say


> i manage all A's in college with 18 credit hours










Last I knew to get simple BA/BS degree it took 4/5 years. Unless Im assuming wrong wouldnt you technically still be in college...making it possible for you to obtain other grades than A's? Anyways, thats not the case...the case was you using that as your reason for having class. You dont have to have any type of education to have class.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

It should be clarified because MAD *did not* delete his videos because of any one persons opinion. If he had taken a quick second to actually read and comprehend the other sides posts, he wouldnt have taken such "offense". Plain and simple, MAD deleted his videos (along with all his posts) to get attention. On top of this he told staff he was going to try and "take down" this board, just "wait and see what I do".....obviously a typical overreaction from a less than stable person. So just in MAD honor I have arranged the worlds smallest violin player to play him a song......










On a side note, I have listened to the sides involved and have decided to delete the comments after the videos, but not the videos themselves, so please feel free to continue to go to the fury section to get your daily dose of gore.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Xenon said:


> On top of this he told staff he was going to try and "take down" this board, just "wait and see what I do".....obviously a typical overreaction from a less than stable person.


 What could he possibly do to take down this site?


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

wow, so he apparently PMed the admins with a threat of "ill take down the site!"?







well I guess he was just a nut after all, I mean jesus the guy is like 23 years old, not 15....


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

I believe the staff have a seperate forum that only they can access and thats probably how he did it.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

No threats were made to staff members over AIM.


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## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

ms nat, what are you talkin about, i just tunred 19 and i am enrolled in cmu, what are you talkin about??


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## SexyAdonis (Mar 7, 2003)

Xenon said:


> It should be clarified because MAD *did not* delete his videos because of any one persons opinion. If he had taken a quick second to actually read and comprehend the other sides posts, he wouldnt have taken such "offense". Plain and simple, MAD deleted his videos (along with all his posts) to get attention. On top of this he told staff he was going to try and "take down" this board, just "wait and see what I do".....obviously a typical overreaction from a less than stable person.


 Phensway: solid proof to research before you blab, like I told you.


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## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

i stand corrected........ i am now able to see both opinions....... im sorry it had to take criticism for me to see this...... totally understandable.. and to tell you the truth i think you guys have a logical reason to think the way you do, and now i also think that way.... sorry for any misunderstanding


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## SexyAdonis (Mar 7, 2003)

No prob.

Although I still don't appreciate being called things like prostitute, slut, whore. Hmmmm


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## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

who was the one calling me sexest???? you were just looking for someone to argue with, not have any discussion about piranhas....... and you dont even own any!!!! leave it at that


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> phensway Posted on Apr 19 2003, 09:12 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> who was the one calling me sexest???? you were just looking for someone to argue with, not have any discussion about piranhas....... and you dont even own any!!!! leave it at that
> SexyAdonis Posted on Apr 19 2003, 08:17 PM
> ...


I believe its time to lock up this thread. Nothing further of educational value is apparent here.


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## acidsurvivor (Feb 7, 2003)

Leave it at that.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I agree. It is sad that adults cannot have a decent debate without overreactions. There are a lot more important things happening in the world than the world of piranha videos.


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