# How to make your piranhas EXTREMELY aggressive.



## nauto (Apr 3, 2003)

For a little background... I was interested in piranhas because of what I've heard of them as folklore and through the media, as being vicious killers. I didn't have any other background from other piranha owners or piranha message boards. Well, I have natts mostly and a couple caribes. Needless to say, they aren't as aggressive and blood thirsty as their reputation is to non-piranha owners. However, with my background in science, namely biology, there are a few things I've learned on how to make your piranhas EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVE. I am going to share a few that are precious to me. For one, I made the tank with completely one-sided visibility. I read some discussion about this within the board and nobody had it right. Forget getting customized glass, it is pricey, and works as a mirror where the p's can see their own reflection. All you need is to make a solution with some common chemicals from your local science store, rub it into the glass, let it dry, then clean with alcohol and rinse. It will not be harmful to your fish whatsoever, and this will allow your fish to not be able to see outside the tank, nor thier reflection, just black. Another thing I do is inject and feed the fish weekly some interesting things that change their behavior. After no change observed with creatine or ATP boosting supplements frozen and cubed in their diet, I moved towards injections and different hormone changes. Namely, Sustanon, Deca durabolan, and Dianabol. If you would like specifics on procedure and these chemicals, you will have to contact me. Thirdly, lighting is very important, I have to run right now, I am going to finish this post when I return. I am going to show the aggressiveness of my fish in a new video as well... It's going to be something that hasn't be seen before on the likes of this board, and may be shocking to people that have kept piranhas for a long time.

Nauto

Nauto


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## Clay (Feb 28, 2003)

Interesting...piranhas on steroids, literally. I doubt the 'roids would have the same effect.


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## Genin (Feb 4, 2003)

I am very curious to see the results and I hope the video lives up to the hype.

Joe


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

a buff p..ummmmm..interesteing


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## RhomZilla (Feb 12, 2003)

Very interesting statement. I've heard about beefing up other aquarium fish by means of entering contests. I too would like to see pix and outcome of these..


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

On a different note...W hy dont you accept your fish for what they are? Why must we project/expect what we feel they "should" be, and from what you are describing here, manipulate them in completely unnatural ways to get a desired end product. IMO, that is not the act of a true fishkeeper/hobbiest. Fish are fish, as a responsible/educated P hobbiest you should know that what the public labels P's is not the case at all. And as such, complete unrealistic to expect such behavior.

I dont think that a backround in science will tell you that if you inject what you have listed above into a animal, you will get "abnormal" behavior. Any GNC stockboy could tell you that.

Please post documentation of your "experiment" when you get time. This should be interesting.

~Dj


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## thoroughbred (Mar 14, 2003)

i need more proof b4 even commenting on this cause honestly at 1st glance i think hes full of sht especially with injecting ur p's the stress alone of doing that weekly monthly would be bad but we'll see maybe hes found something out but im happy with myp's they way they are and i know im not goin to inject anything nto them


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

how did you make your glass one sided? What chemicals?


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

I can see the glass helping with the nervousness. But i whould like to see the vid. And also turning them meaner whouldent that jepordize the other piranha?


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

InSinUAsian said:


> On a different note...W hy dont you accept your fish for what they are? Why must we project/expect what we feel they "should" be, and from what you are describing here, manipulate them in completely unnatural ways to get a desired end product. IMO, that is not the act of a true fishkeeper/hobbiest. Fish are fish, as a responsible/educated P hobbiest you should know that what the public labels P's is not the case at all. And as such, complete unrealistic to expect such behavior.


 I fully agree with this statement!


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## 521 1N5 (Apr 25, 2003)

Xenon said:


> how did you make your glass one sided? What chemicals?


 i wanna know that too....


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## Halo (Apr 18, 2003)

What a bunch of BS..........


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## Death in #'s (Apr 29, 2003)

and u have to think what of stress







you are putting them through. and maybe all these injections mike just kill them slowly


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## o snap its eric (Feb 19, 2003)

goldfish chunks in teeth said:


> Xenon said:
> 
> 
> > how did you make your glass one sided? What chemicals?
> ...


 im intresdted in that also!


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## Halo (Apr 18, 2003)

Oh and let me guess, you also do clomid therapy so your Piranhas dont lose there gains............ LMAO


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## 521 1N5 (Apr 25, 2003)

It would have been a lot smarter to post and back you points for when you have time...it reduces flaming. You are not here to argue your side of things..


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## Clay (Feb 28, 2003)

With your extensive background, I'm sure you developed a control group and conducted a rather scientific experiment.....

Ok, not really.


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## pcrose (Mar 9, 2003)

The glass idea is fine but , injecting things into the fish is wrong. Why do you need to genetically enhance them to be more aggresive, InSinUAsian 
had the right idea about loving your fish for what they are. Things should be natural,upping the aggresion is bs to me, but it is your fish and I can't stop you.


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## dead golfish (Apr 24, 2003)

I agree with you all making your P's non skitish is fine but making them extremely agressive o the point where its not natural thats just wrong I wanna see the vid

Back up your points man


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

nauto said:


> Needless to say, they aren't as aggressive and blood thirsty as their reputation is to non-piranha owners. However, with my background in science, namely biology, there are a few things I've learned on how to make your piranhas EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVE. I am going to share a few that are precious to me. For one, I made the tank with completely one-sided visibility. I read some discussion about this within the board and nobody had it right. Forget getting customized glass, it is pricey, and works as a mirror where the p's can see their own reflection. All you need is to make a solution with some common chemicals from your local science store, rub it into the glass, let it dry, then clean with alcohol and rinse. It will not be harmful to your fish whatsoever, and this will allow your fish to not be able to see outside the tank, nor thier reflection, just black. Another thing I do is inject and feed the fish weekly some interesting things that change their behavior. After no change observed with creatine or ATP boosting supplements frozen and cubed in their diet, I moved towards injections and different hormone changes. Namely, Sustanon, Deca durabolan, and Dianabol. If you would like specifics on procedure and these chemicals, you will have to contact me.
> Nauto


 I'm curious to see what's to come of this..
However, It does have a spammy kind of ring to it.
Maybe it will increase my stamina and make my girlfriend 2 cup sizes larger as a side effect too. 
Who knows ,maybe the glass treatment will prevent birdshit from landing on my windshield .(I believe that's windscreen for you Innes







)


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## RedShoal (May 3, 2003)

I heard of people doing all this in the Asian Aro trade. But no one has talking about a chemical you just rub in. I am very interested in this also. I wish you would just post the name instead of talking about it. I have a feeling this is just BS to get to people.


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

yeah i want to see this video.....hurry soon..cuase words mean jack without pics or video


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## mdemers883 (Jan 9, 2003)




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## tyourkie66 (Mar 13, 2003)

yeah.....and i have fed my p's andro tablets and it made them EXTREMLEY AGGRESIVE and EXTREMLEY HORNY and they starting breeding weekly. ....................

........lol.....


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## 521 1N5 (Apr 25, 2003)

winkyee said:


> Maybe it will increase my stamina and make my girlfriend 2 cup sizes larger as a side effect too.


 YES!!!


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

ok did you say that you inject the feeders with roids and then feed them to the Ps?.. because I didnt think injectables were meant to be digested. Creatine would only bloat the Ps as it results in an increase in celluar adenisine tri-phospates, hence increase celluar water retention.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I'd like to help you all with this post, but I'm to busy wiping my eyes from laughing so hard at this topic and the idea you are all even taking part in it. This posts reminds me of that other fellow, a so-called biologist who made outrageous claims then got the entire group here and in Predatory Fish replying to him/her attempting to get them to prove their claims. Then that person vanished. This is no more different. Anyway, Enjoy the topic. I am.







PS: Better be careful with your PC this so-called video does'nt put a virus on your computer.


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## RedShoal (May 3, 2003)

I agree. But he can also starve the P's until they are in a frenzy.


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## 521 1N5 (Apr 25, 2003)

forget the steriods i know that's crap....

i wanna know about this one sided glass...that's a tad more believable.


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## LouiCypher (Mar 10, 2003)

Nauto... according to your signature, you own a 4" medinei... is that not aggressive enough?

And as far as I know... you would have a pretty special fish... do they exist in the hobby?


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## cfr3 (Feb 20, 2003)

An injectionable drug is generally not effective if delivered orally (consumed). The absorption and activation of drugs is dependent on the vehicle of delvery. I doubt this "experiment" actually is doing anything.

However, I would imagine that chemicals could be added to tank water to alter the behavior of p's. Of course chemicals can be added that drug or slow the p's down, but I think that you could also induce a heightened level of activity amongst p's. Based on this line of thinking, there is one well publicized supposed pheromone for p's, and that is blood. If it is true that p's are excited by blood, then it is logical to assume there is some compound present in blood that triggers a response in p's that leads to a heightened level of activity. Looking at this from an evolutionary stand point, this would seem logical. The presence of blood is a good indication of the presence of food. If p's developed a trigger to a stimulus in blood that forced them into feeding mode, this would slightly increase their ability to survive and hence natural selection would favor this characteristic. A good experiment to test this would be to isolate various compounds from blood and mix each compound into tank water. The tough thing would be to develop a metric to measure p activity/feeding.


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## RedShoal (May 3, 2003)

Damn it, just pour some coffee into the tank and watch them run. Or put those metabo diet pills in the water.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Then one must consider what is in erythrocyte causes this trigger mechanism. Need to dig out some studes on shark and see what if anything is listed. Now this topic is getting interesting.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Blood - the universal substance which triggers shark attacks?
If we were to ask people on the street what the best stimulus is to trigger a shark attack, the reply "blood" would surely be the most frequent answer. This apparently universally accepted opinion is equally prevalent with both laymen and experts alike. For most people, "blood in the water" is equivalent to "feeding frenzies" of sharks, a mistaken explanatory mechanism similar to the "shark-surfer phenomenon". However, that which is believed to be so obvious need not be "the wisest solution". No two blood types are the same! The blood of every animal species has a specific, individual composition consisting of plasma proteins, anorganic ions and salts, organic nutrients and nitrogen waste products, to name just a few. Research shows that sharks possess extremely sensitive smelling organs which developed over millions of years and make them react to proteins rather than sugar. But even with its highly specialized sense of smell the shark can only identify animals which he already knows based on their blood composition. Certain elements in the blood may remind him of familiar organisms and thus trigger an approach maneuver. Still, the shark knows exactly that the blood which he smells is not completely familiar to him and will near the object very cautiously.

Using the term "feeding frenzy" thus becomes questionable when the assumption is made that this behavior is supposedly induced by the smell of blood. Latest research shows that such "frenzied eating rituals" are more likely connected to a fast-moving hierarchical eating pattern rather than any disorganized fighting. Although blood may help to accelerate certain forms of behavior, it neither intoxicates the shark's senses, nor does it deliver compelling evidence for a real "frenzy". But just like the so-called "mistaken biting" of surfers, the supposed effects which blood has on sharks has also become an established opinion which has far too long been supported uncritically by the media.

Old ingrained theories must be reexamined:

Following World War II, a committee was established and assigned the responsibility of developing a shark repellent. In order to better understand a shark's manner of attack, all "attack" data was collected and evaluated. Nevertheless, attention was always focused on the event itself, and the animal's biology was neglected.
This shortsighted way of thinking has persisted up until today. Accidents are still analyzed primarily from this viewpoint, only accompanied by a description of external factors which seemingly lead to these incidents, such as blood, noise, appearance, etc. So in order to find the real causes of the accident, and in order to avoid another senseless massacre of sharks out of fear, lack of understanding or desire for profits, or in order to better explain them, everything must be done to steer research in the direction of including shark biology and behavior in such investigations.
For the broad masses the shark still mainly represents a dumb incapable monster which bites by mistake. Many people would even find it a blessing if these animals no longer swam in the oceans. Campaigns for the protection of sharks are thus built on shaky grounds. But the truth is that sharks are a central and vital component when it comes to maintaining the balance of the oceans and must thus be preserved with all available means. Proper understanding of the real reasons for shark accidents would thus help to considerably improve their bad image, and could also mean a long overdue improvement of man's own image.

* Dr. Erich K. Ritter is a shark biologist and adjunct assistant professor at Hofstra University, New York (USA)


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## cfr3 (Feb 20, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Then one must consider what is in erythrocyte causes this trigger mechanism. Need to dig out some studes on shark and see what if anything is listed. Now this topic is getting interesting.


 Frank,

Is there actually any evidence to support the claim that blood does in fact elevate the activity/feeding of p's? If there is, what measurement system was used to determine that? I think that it would be safe to assume that if you don't know of such a study that it doesn't exist. That could lead to an interesting study.

I have been thinking about a metric to use to gage p activity and have had a hard time determining a system. My only idea would be to try establish an "activity" measurement. This could be defined as the total distance traveled by a p for a set period of time. I think that this could be fairly accurately measured by video taping a p for a time period of say 3 minutes, then reviewing the tape to determine a distance traveled using reference points to determine distance. If we wanted to do this right we would require a gage R&R/MSA and we would really need a lot of trials and samples to be run. I think that this could not be done to the degree of precison needed via people over the net, but it is kind of a neat idea to think about.

I also thought about just doing a quick study to determine if blood does in fact elevate activity could be done, before jumping into the different components in blood. Maybe someone could actually perform this experiment. It is just too bad I don't have my p's anymore and am too picky and haven't gotten my new tank yet (I work for J&J in Medical Device division developing blood banking/donor screening molecular diagnostic tests).


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## cfr3 (Feb 20, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Many people would even find it a blessing if these animals no longer swam in the oceans. Campaigns for the protection of sharks are thus built on shaky grounds. But the truth is that sharks are a central and vital component when it comes to maintaining the balance of the oceans and must thus be preserved with all available means.


 These damn people made my job really hard. The Basking Shark just got placed on the endangered species list. We use Pristane, an oil obtained from the shark, to prime mice for monoclonal antibody production in their Ascites fluid. Now I have to source a synthetic pristane chemical and setup validation testing for use in our mouse lab.


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## Halo (Apr 18, 2003)

Dianabol (1 7-alpha-methyl-1 7beta-hydroxil-androsta-1.4dien-3-on) is an orally applicable steroid with a great effect on the protein metabolism. The effect of Dianabol promotes the protein synthesis, thus it supports the buildup of protein. This effect mani-fests itself in a positive nitrogen balance and an improved well-be-ing. Dianabol has a very strong anabolic and androgenic effect which manifests itself in an enormous buildup of strength and muscle mass in its users. Dianabol is simply a "mass steroid" which works quickly and reliably. A weight gain of 2 - 4 pounds per week in the first six weeks is normal with Dianabol. The additional body weight consists of a true increase in tissue (hyper-trophy of muscle fibers) and, in particular, in a noticeable retention of fluids. Dianabol aromatizes easily so that it is not a very good drug when one works out for a competition. Excessive water reten-tion and aromatizing can be avoided in most cases by simultaneously taking Nolvadex and Proviron so that some athletes are able to use Dianabol until three to four days before a competition. An effective daily dose for athletes is around 15-40 mg/day. The dosage of Dianabol taken by the athlete should always be coordinated with his individual goals. Steroid nov-ices do not need more than 15-20 mg of Dianabol per day since this dose is sufficient to achieve exceptional results over a period of 8-10 weeks. When the effect begins to slow down in this group after about eight weeks and the athlete wants to continue his treatment, the dosage of Dianabol should not be increased but an injectable steroid such as Deca-Durabolin in a dosage of 200 mg/week or Primobolan in a dosage of 200 mg/week should be used in addition to the Dianabol dose; or he may switch to one of the two above-mentioned compounds. The use of testosterone is not recommended at this stage as the athlete should leave some free play for later. For those either impatient or more advanced, a stack of Dianabol 20-30 mg/day and Deca-Durabolin 200-400 mg/day achieves miracles. Those who are more interested in strength and less in body mass can combine Dianabol with either Oxandrolone or Winstrol tablets. The additional intake of an injectable steroid does, however, clearly show the best results. To build up mass and strength, Sustanon or Testosterone enanthate at 250-mg+/week and/ or Deca-Durabolin 200 at mg +/week are suitable. To prepare, for a competition, Dianabol has only limited use since it causes distinct water retention in many athletes and due to its high conversion rate into estrogen it complicates the athlete's fat breakdown. Those of you without this problem or who are able to control it by taking Nolvadex or Proviron, in this phase should use Dianabol together with the proven Parabolan, Winstrol Depot, Masteron, Oxandrolone, etc.

Since Dianabol's half-life time is only 3.2 - 4.5 hours (1) application at least twice a day is necessary to achieve a somewhat even concen-tration of the substance in the blood. It is recommended that the tablets be taken during meals so that pos-sible gastrointestinal pains can be avoided. Dianabol reaches the blood after 1-3 hours. A simple application of only 10 mg results in a 5-fold increase in the average testosterone concentration in the male.Women should not use Dianabol because, due to its distinct andro-genic component, considerable virilization symptoms can occur. Although Dianabol has many potential side effects, they are rare with a dosage of up to 20 mg/day. Since Dianabol is I 7-alpha alky-lated it causes a considerable strain on the liver. In high dosages and over a longer period of time, Dianabol is liver-toxic. Even a dosage of only 10 mg/day can increase the liver values; after discontinu-ance of the drug, however, the values return to normal. Since Dianabol quickly increases the body weight due to high water re-tention, a high blood pressure and a faster heartbeat can occur, some-times requiring the intake of an antihypertensive drug such as Catapresan. Additive intake of Nolvadex and Proviron might be necessary as well, since Dianabol strongly converts into estro-gens and in some athletes causes gynecomastia ("bitch tits") or worsens an already existing condition. Because of the strongly androgenic component and the conversion into dihydrotestosterone, Dianabol, in some athletes, can trigger a seri-ous acne vulgaris on the face, neck, chest, back, and shoulders since the sebaceous gland function is stimulated. If a hereditary predispo-sition exists Dianabol can also accelerate a possible hair loss which again can be explained by the high conversion of the substance into dihydrotestosterone. Another disadvantage is that, after discontinuance of the compound, a considerable loss of strength and mass often occurs since the water stored during the intake is again excreted by the body. In high dosages of 5 0 mg +/day aggres-sive behavior in the user can occasionally be observed which, if it only refers to his workout, can be an advantage. In order toavoid uncontrolled actions, those who have a tendency to easily lose, their temper should be aware of this characteristic when taking a high D-bol dosage. Despite all of these possible symptoms Dianabol instills in most athletes a "sense of well-being anabolic" which improves the mood and appetite and in many users, together with the ob-tained results, leads to an improved level of consciousness and a higher self-confidence.

What this means is you would have to administer every 4 hours.for it to be affective. I geuss the worst thing that could happen is your P's would get Bitch tits. LMAO


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Whoa, I did not know that roid knowlege/usage was so prevelent. I think that if you want to bulk up, just hit the gym a few nights a week. If you want to bulk up your fish, ADD A POWERHEAD!!! At least the powerhead wont make your fish go bald, or develop TESTICULAR CANCER. I dont care how many hoe$ you get cause you all buffed up on roids, if docters have to pull some Tom Green testicle removal $hit on you when you are 35, I will pass. Didnt you guys see Fight Club. That fool develped B*tch Tits cause he developed testicular cancer from roids and had is "stuff" removed.

No B*tch Tits for me...

~Dj


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> cfr3 Posted on May 9 2003, 12:00 AM ...Is there actually any evidence to support the claim that blood does in fact elevate the activity/feeding of p's? If there is, what measurement system was used to determine that? I think that it would be safe to assume that if you don't know of such a study that it doesn't exist. That could lead to an interesting study.


 There isn't other than some vague references to the olfactory being similiar to sharks and often quoted via pirana books of their ability to smell blood. If I recall correctly (using memory on this so may be wrong) its 1er million which is quite a good nose.



> If we wanted to do this right we would require a gage R&R/MSA


 Do you have the $$$'s for this or do you have a downloaded program that would work? I have a basic knowledge of the component of blood. Though I wonder if the bone morrow where blood is produced might be the key component for the scent. I know animals (such as dogs) enjoy breaking bones to get to the morrow. I have done the same myself with chicken bones and it is indeed tasty. So as a theory, wonder if there is a connection. I'm going to be asking around the scientists involved with direct pirana studies if there is a research paper out on this or if in fact this has been studied.

It may take a few days to a week or more. But once I get the input I'll post it in Pirana Science. In the meantime, we can simply explore it here.


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## Halo (Apr 18, 2003)

As for Sustanonand Deca durabolan they both have to be injected intramuscular to be affective. And I really doubt you are injecting you fish 1 to 2 times per week. They can not be ingested.
Ok Im done.........


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Halo Posted on May 9 2003, 01:42 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> As for Sustanonand Deca durabolan they both have to be injected intramuscular to be affective. And I really doubt you are injecting you fish 1 to 2 times per week. They can not be ingested.
> Ok Im done.........


 Amazing you went through all of that just to let us know that it would likely screw up a fishes liver, among other things.







Give you an "A" for effort.


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Thats what I was thinking also.























You gave up to easily. LoL

~Dj


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## RhomZilla (Feb 12, 2003)

Aiight PFury elites!!!!



















































LOL make 'em bowdown























*Round of applause!!*


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## cfr3 (Feb 20, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > If we wanted to do this right we would require a gage R&R/MSA
> 
> 
> Do you have the $$$'s for this or do you have a downloaded program that would work? I have a basic knowledge of the component of blood.


 I have a pretty thorough understanding of blood. I develop molecular diagnostic tests for blood banking/blood screening assays. Part of my job involves setting up validation protocols. There is no need to spend $$$ on designing the test, that isn't too tough. If memory serves me correctly, the sample size  that we need to be able to make conclusions is determined by the formula, n = (2s/d)^2 where s=standard error and d=resolution you need to be able to observe two different states (For the formula it may be ^.5 power but I think it is ^2). The standard error can be estimated by doing approximately 10 runs and determining the standard deviation and using that as an approximation for your standard error. The catch is, that your standard deviation observed for your real testing must be somewhat in agreement with your oringal estimation to assure you had a large enough sample size to represent your general population. Then, we need to have two different people (2 operators) take 2 sets of measurements. One set must be ~5 measurements at the baseline state (no excitation). The other set must be ~5 measurements at the excited state. This will allow us to determine the repeatability of a measurement by looking at a single operators measurement of the same event multiple times, the reproducibility between multiple operators observing the same event multiple times, and the variation we expect to observe between an excited and calm p. The goal would be to determine that our variation in the measurement system is not significant when compared to the expected observe difference we anticipate to measure. I have significant experience with minitab, which is a very powerful statistics program and am qualified to do data analysis and experimental design. When we do the experiment the data analysis is simple. We will check to make sure the data is normal (If it isn't normal I still can use a poisson probability density function or do a transformation). Then we can then do a test for comparison and determine a p-value. If the p-value is less than .05 we can say with 95% accuracy that the two data sets are different and that the X(blood) does indeed have an effect on p activity. Actually, with whatever p-value is obtained I can translate that into how much confidence there is that the two data sets are unique. If only I had the p's to do the experiments...


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## cfr3 (Feb 20, 2003)

I apologize to everyone for talking statistics, but I actually like to do this kind of stuff.


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## rday (Mar 10, 2003)

I find this fairly ridiculous. To give a steroid supplement intended for a 180 lb human to a fish that weighs maybe a pound, someone would have to have a pretty intense knowledge of the fish's metabolic capabilities and hormonal steroid levels. The glossing over of details and questionable ethics of this character make me distrust every word.

In regards to the shark/blood discussion, if I were to venture a guess as to the blood component that the shark is detecting, I would have to say the iron in the hemoglobin. Iron is a fairly rare trace element in terms of biological organisms but is fairly easy to detect when it is present.


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## Clay (Feb 28, 2003)

Deca doesn't cause liver damage. Actually, it does little if any damage at all. That's why it's so popular.

If anyone is stupid enough to waste deca on fish, they deserve to be stomped. Deca (legit) is fairly hard to come by and it's insane to comsider the effects on a fish. They have different chemistries than people...ummm, duh.


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## Death in #'s (Apr 29, 2003)

can we all just let our ps live a normal life that is all we want to live long and happy


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## nauto (Apr 3, 2003)

thank you for the instant messages and emails, i had some good discussions today... i'm not going to go on with the post, as it's just become silly.... to those of you going ahead with the glass treatment, good luck, it only takes 5 minutes...
and to the person questioning my credibility with the medinei.... i picked him up from a guy in chicago from this board (aj), he was eaten immediately


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

If you are going to make wild claims as to suppossed "scientific" studies that you are conducting and are not prepared to provide data/proof, please do not waste our time. This site is dedicated to the advancement of the P hobby. Obviously something as insane as the theory behind this thread will be scrutinized down to the last letter.

We should have seen this one comming. No more over reacting from me next time until solid data/proof is given.

~Dj


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## RhomZilla (Feb 12, 2003)

InSinUAsian said:


> If you are going to make wild claims as to suppossed "scientific" studies that you are conducting and are not prepared to provide data/proof, please do not waste our time. This site is dedicated to the advancement of the P hobby. Obviously something as insane as the theory behind this thread will be scrutinized down to the last letter.
> 
> We should have seen this one comming. No more over reacting from me next time until solid data/proof is given.
> 
> ~Dj


 Well said!!!


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## RedShoal (May 3, 2003)

yep


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

First off injecting your piranha's with artificial man made medicines and mixes seems a bit cruel to me. And secondly, I concur with InSin in saying why buy piranha's if you're not satisfied with their aggression buy a rottweiler and neglect it...you'll get plenty of aggression.


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## 521 1N5 (Apr 25, 2003)

at least show us the video...


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## rday (Mar 10, 2003)

there is no video. this whole thing is bs.


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## 521 1N5 (Apr 25, 2003)

what a dick....


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

I am trying to get the video....he pmed me and I am waiting for him to get on AIM.


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## Jonas (Mar 14, 2003)

YES, PLEEEZZZ TELL US WHAT CHEMICALS FOR THE GLASS TRICK !!! AS FOR ALL THAT OTHER BULLSHIT..........WHY DO PEOPLE ALWAYS GOTTA f*ck WITH NATURE, WHY DONT WE ALL JUST CLONE SHEEP AND CATTLE AND HUMANS AND GET IT OVER WITH ALREADY. NOW I CANT WAIT TO GET A CAMERA FOR VIDEO. I DIDNT NAME ONE OF MY FISH HITLER FOR NOTHIN' HE NEEDS NO INJECTIONS, THATS FOR SURE.


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## 521 1N5 (Apr 25, 2003)

damn it...i was gonna name the rhom i'm getting form BCB hitler...









now i can't


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## Kolbenschlag (Feb 3, 2003)

Oh no, theres someone on the board with the name jonas now... This could get confusing... better start using those judazz smilies.


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

video,video,video,video..or else


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## RedShoal (May 3, 2003)

I think its just a prank. I still want to know the chemical name, I can't find it on the net.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> I have a pretty thorough understanding of blood. I develop molecular diagnostic tests for blood banking/blood screening assays. Part of my job involves setting up validation protocols. There is no need to spend $$$ on designing the test, that isn't too tough. If memory serves me correctly, the sample size  that we need to be able to make conclusions is determined by the formula, n = (2s/d)^2 where s=standard error and d=resolution you need to be able to observe two different states (For the formula it may be ^.5 power but I think it is ^2). The standard error can be estimated by doing approximately 10 runs and determining the standard deviation and using that as an approximation for your standard error. The catch is, that your standard deviation observed for your real testing must be somewhat in agreement with your oringal estimation to assure you had a large enough sample size to represent your general population. Then, we need to have two different people (2 operators) take 2 sets of measurements. One set must be ~5 measurements at the baseline state (no excitation). The other set must be ~5 measurements at the excited state. This will allow us to determine the repeatability of a measurement by looking at a single operators measurement of the same event multiple times, the reproducibility between multiple operators observing the same event multiple times, and the variation we expect to observe between an excited and calm p. The goal would be to determine that our variation in the measurement system is not significant when compared to the expected observe difference we anticipate to measure. I have significant experience with minitab, which is a very powerful statistics program and am qualified to do data analysis and experimental design. When we do the experiment the data analysis is simple. We will check to make sure the data is normal (If it isn't normal I still can use a poisson probability density function or do a transformation). Then we can then do a test for comparison and determine a p-value. If the p-value is less than .05 we can say with 95% accuracy that the two data sets are different and that the X(blood) does indeed have an effect on p activity. Actually, with whatever p-value is obtained I can translate that into how much confidence there is that the two data sets are unique. If only I had the p's to do the experiments...


I don't see anywhere above where you mention what the fluid volumn will be for these piranas which will represent river water. These critters are able to detect and flow of blood from the source. Another consideration is water is not pure, how is it they can detect this from other minerals naturally found. I seem to recall reading from someone that posted on this thread that blood contains _iron_. But iron too, is part of the river system from human mechanical tools. So iron itself would not be a catalyst per se.

If you do this via the lab which is what we are talking about, then perhaps using a model using 100 gal aquario with a stem pipette using a measured drop of blood would be a starter point. Sizes of piranas would also be needed to measure ability of detecting blood from juvenile to adult size.

Then this test could graduate to water flow, then perhaps using manmade products such as tannins to simulate Amazonian waters to further test this smelling ability. My next question would be can the parts of blood be separated to find out and test each component to see if one is the trigger mechanism? With your expertise in that field perhaps you can answer that and how we would go about it. I'm trying to keep this in the realm so that everyone reading it doesn't get lost in the tech language (K.I.S.S.).


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## cfr3 (Feb 20, 2003)

hastatus said:


> I don't see anywhere above where you mention what the fluid volumn will be for these piranas which will represent river water. These critters are able to detect and flow of blood from the source. Another consideration is water is not pure, how is it they can detect this from other minerals naturally found. I seem to recall reading from someone that posted on this thread that blood contains _iron_. But iron too, is part of the river system from human mechanical tools. So iron itself would not be a catalyst per se.
> 
> If you do this via the lab which is what we are talking about, then perhaps using a model using 100 gal aquario with a stem pipette using a measured drop of blood would be a starter point. Sizes of piranas would also be needed to measure ability of detecting blood from juvenile to adult size.
> 
> Then this test could graduate to water flow, then perhaps using manmade products such as tannins to simulate Amazonian waters to further test this smelling ability. My next question would be can the parts of blood be separated to find out and test each component to see if one is the trigger mechanism? With your expertise in that field perhaps you can answer that and how we would go about it. I'm trying to keep this in the realm so that everyone reading it doesn't get lost in the tech language (K.I.S.S.).


 I would think the best way to do the experiment would be to make the assumption that the other variables you mentioned have minor interactions compared to the trigger we are searching for. This would require us to use the same age/size of p's and the same tank size with the same water conditions. This level of control could really only be achieved in a lab setting, and clearly not in any home setups.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Icfr3 Posted on May 9 2003, 10:37 PM would think the best way to do the experiment would be to make the assumption that the other variables you mentioned have minor interactions compared to the trigger we are searching for. This would require us to use the same age/size of p's and the same tank size with the same water conditions. This level of control could really only be achieved in a lab setting, and clearly not in any home setups.


Granted some things could not be done in the home aquario. But perhaps a home experiment could indeed produce some type of results.

I, in my younger days, when I first started learning about piranas, I used to prick my finger and put a drop of blood in a 10 gallon aquario to see what the 3 inch fish would do. It did go to the surface and look around. and my thoughts then was WOW, it does smell blood. But that is not scientific at all nor produces the trigger for the reaction. Yet there is something _in blood_ that makes the olfactory in fish react. Anyway, it was a good idea.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

This is the same guy who posted the picture of the supposed 21" rhom in chicago. the photo was of a fish hanging out of a hot tub. this guy is just a prankster.
wes


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## nauto (Apr 3, 2003)

Yes I am just a prankster







, I don't mess with the glass or inject fish... (i don't even like needles) as for the medinei i mentioned, he's safe in his own 45 gallon tank..... I just think it's funny how you guys get so wound up in the hobby... it's funny to get a reaction out of all of you.

To be honest, my fish aren't that aggressive... they kick up rocks when i turn the lights on and swim away if i move quickly.... took them 3 mice, with each one in there for about 30 min just to get them to eat one....

beware of the 21" MONSTER RHOM!!!!


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Kolbenschlag said:


> Oh no, theres someone on the board with the name jonas now... This could get confusing... better start using those judazz smilies.


Nah, don't worry: Jonas is just my side-kick


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## Halo (Apr 18, 2003)

nauto said:


> Yes I am just a prankster
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What would posses you to post such a thing in the first place? At lease do a little research on the subject to make it some what believable. This guy is unreal.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

nauto said:


> Yes I am just a prankster
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Funny, that's not what I heard earlier today. So which is it, is your medinAi (or rather spilopleura cf) in a tank or did it get ripped to shreds? Not that it matters, as you can see people don't like being strung along with BS.


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## RedShoal (May 3, 2003)

I don't need BS to feel special. I have my followers.


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

Sorry nauto, you are an idiot!


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)




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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

nauto said:


> Yes I am just a prankster
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PK - No ban. Watching this guy make an utter fool of himself is welcome entertainment.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

i just had to use the smiley. i'm loving the new ones.
wes


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

PIRANHA KING said:


>


 NOOOOOOO!!! This guys is too much fun, it's histerical.


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

Cryin wolf will get ya no where. See if any body takes ya serious again.


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

Mr. Hannibal said:


> Sorry nauto, you are an idiot!


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## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

I believe the fact that this reply is #78 in the thread speaks for itself.

Bravo.


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## JesseD (Mar 26, 2003)

scarfish said:


> I believe the fact that this reply is #78 in the thread speaks for itself.
> 
> Bravo.


 EXCELLENT POINT!

nauto...


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## RHOM (Jan 28, 2003)

Youre a dumbass with too much time on your hands.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2003)

Hmmm, heres the link for making the glass oneway like he was talking about, oneway glass formula


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Somebody working towards mercury poisoning?


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

I believe that Silver Nitrate is a known mutagen. I remember getting some on my hands, turned my skin black for about a week. Not the best stuff to use on a tank intended for fish.

~Dj


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## FeederFish33 (Jan 22, 2003)

Nauto, you peice of sh*t, dont waste our time. Although, i will give you props. Everyone said they knew you were a phony, but if that were the case, they wouldnt have wasted their time arguing and begging for videos and names of chemicals. Congrats, butthole. Congrats.


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## bobme (Feb 17, 2003)

why is this thread so long?


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## smb (Jun 1, 2003)

bobme said:


> why is this thread so long?


 Because there's a lot of posts.


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## thoroughbred (Mar 14, 2003)

someone please close this thread this guy was full of sh*t


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## Conan (Apr 10, 2003)




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## Guest (Jun 6, 2003)

just so everyone knows, im not nuato, but i talked to him on AIM and he gave me the link


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## JesseD (Mar 26, 2003)




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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

There is no reason to keep this thread going. I dont se why it should be closed, but definately no reason to keep posting.







Especially when it was gone and done for almost a month.

It was all a ploy to get attention. Please just let it die.









~Dj


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## DLF98 (Jun 1, 2003)

i think this guy is full of it. If he knew anything about biology or the effects of hormones or even basic metabolism, it should have been obvious that creatine supplementation would have no effect in making them more aggressive. Increasing available ATP is never going to alter the general mentality of any living creature... that is just absurd. And "nauto" if you are conducting experiments, what is your operational definition of aggression that you are using and how is it being quantified? In other words how are you recording aggression?? And why can't you just leave the fish alone, the personality of the different species is what it is, if you don't like the way piranhas are then sell them to someone who does


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

nauto said:


> Yes I am just a prankster
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Guys... He already admited to fu#king around with us. No need to continue this pointless thread.

~Dj


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## RhomZilla (Feb 12, 2003)

Then I say







to keep this from continuing on.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

As per popular demand!


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