# Goldfish Feeders: Healthy or Unhealthy?



## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Please read the entirety of this thread before throwing out your half-baked response, which may have already been addressed in prior responses*

from what I understand from most 'experienced' aquarists, goldfish are un-nutritious

the arguments I hear against them are that they are fatty, lack any proper nutrients, excessively bony (I assume this means they have little flesh to digest...), and prone to transferring diseases to said fish.

I understand they can of course, be quarantined and thereby prevent the disease problem, but I doubt most people that feed them regularly bother with this practice....

Well, what are your people's thoughts on using goldfish as part of a carnivorous fish's staple diet; is it unhealthy or healthy?


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

I want some Evidence showing Goldfish are Higher in Saturated Fat (if its Polyunsaturated or Monounsaturated thats not a problem) then a cichlid.. Lack of proper Nutrients? How so? WHats makes a Goldfish Less nutritous then a tilapia, what makes a goldfish less nuitritous then a pellet? Remember a goldfish has all the nutrition hes ever needed, in his body... his body has collected the nutients from food he was given and "built" his body out of them. so hes a swimming Meal, full of the nutrition a larger fish needs. Excessivly bony? Thats a good thing, You want the extra calcium.

Only problem with goldfish is they are diseased.


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## rUBY84 (Jan 8, 2004)

My bf had always fed his p's feeders... and occasionally pellets and shirmp - never had a problem with them. But just to avoid disease, once my cons get bigger and breed, they'll be feeders for him.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Moved to non-p science..per p45


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## Scooby (Dec 25, 2003)

i think as long as you feed yer fish other stuff then just flat out feeders you'll be ok...

i go with a mix of pellets, flake food, beef heart and minnows...


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Scooby said:


> i think as long as you feed yer fish other stuff then just flat out feeders you'll be ok...
> 
> i go with a mix of pellets, flake food, beef heart and minnows...


 Minnows are a "feeder fish"... you cant talk bad about feeder fish and THEN recomend feeding them............

wtf....


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## SLANTED (Dec 7, 2003)

I have a friend who has done exstensive research on this very topic down in San Diego. There really isn't any question as to the level of fat and nutrionless content of goldfish but more to the idea of a toxin in goldfish. He showed that there are trace amounts of a specific toxin in gfish that build up in a fish that eats only gfish. It was really interesting and after only a few moments seeing his stuff he completely sold me on it. I have to get a hold of him. I don't think he has any of it published yet so it may be hard to get it.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

please do, im interested.


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## SLANTED (Dec 7, 2003)

I definitely will. I have been meaning to do it for a while but I've been busy with a lot of other things. I don't know if he did this research for his personal work or with an intent to publish. At any rate, I'll call him tomorrow.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

what other fish did he studdy on? im curious to know what other species have these Toxins.. i doubt Carp where the only species found with it..


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Thaimine (Vitamin B) inhibitors are a major reason goldfish suck, 
Many other species also have this problem, Frozen foods can also be an
issue when it comes to this.

I'm not going to sit a spell out all the problems, they are already written,
Look into the reason Picivore fish are not generally aquacultured.
Fr that matter just start looking at aquaculture nutrition issues.

This is Readily available info. and will help you all around anyhow.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

please, dont just say "there is info out there" and not post it...

if you got info, bring it to the table.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

There is info, look it up regarding the feeding of herps (specifically gartersnakes).
I think it's safe to trust that Poly doesn't just pull stuff out of thin air...

If you are too lazy :laugh: , here is a good link:

http://forum.kingsnake.com/garter/messages/13452.html

I have had horrific experiences from feeding goldfish to watersnakes. I'm just playing it safe and avoiding them. Some people supplement their feeders with vitamins...


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

what if you raise your own gold fish on a strict healthy diet

and just eenough current in the tank to give em a work out would that keep em

lean


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Doesn't affect the thiaminase situation.


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

> Remember a goldfish has all the nutrition hes ever needed, in his body... his body has collected the nutients from food he was given and "built" his body out of them.


That is funny to me in particular these are commercially propagated fish that are not nessecarily fed adequate diets, and are NOT adult fish, let alone how many hands did these fish go through to the LFS, then calculate chemicals added to water due to extreme overcrowding prone to feeders.....laughable...

Next issue was addressed by Poly, and if you are unable to get a library card, do not blame other people......

Then there is the issue that gold fish and other carp are COLD WATER fish, one of the reasons they are a fattier fish, although the nutritional value of a store bought goldfish as a feeder is lessened through measures stated above......

The bony nature, and heavy scalation of goldfish also is a factor, although in that respect they are a decent source of calcium, but there are much more nutritious ways to add calcium.

Bottom line is for a healthy proper diet one must vary the items fed. P's do not just single out one fish in the wild, and as each fishes diets vary, the nutritional composition of the fish varies as well, so feeding goldfish occasionally as part of a well balanced varied diet should not pose a problem. I feed my P's, fish, rodents (mice, gerbils, rats, etc..), lagamorphs (rabbit young), pigeon squab, finch young and adults, as well as beef heart, kidney etc... and of course they occasionally eat tank mates, snails and other non-intended food items...diversity=healthy


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Just some interesting links dealing with fish and nutritional
value, as well as handliing and inspection in Fresh and frozen
feed animals. not nessesarlly the topic but usefull none the less,
some aspects are pointed out in these that directly link to
goldfish as "Feeders"

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/fishfeed.html
http://books.nap.edu/books/0309048915/html/index.html
http://www.fao.org/docrep/v7180e/V7180E00.HTM#Contents


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

this is an interesting topic, i have enjoyed it thus far.









i once found a study of oscar stomach contents, and i think the primary thing they were eating were terrestrial and aquatic invertebrates, with fish only making up 15% of their diet. (obviously this probably varies depending upon geography of the actual population) ......anyone else ever come across that?

i think people probably tend to err on the side of feeding fish too many feeder fish rather than too little......


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I agree Puma, I think it's because aquarists enjoy watching "the chase".



> Next issue was addressed by Poly, and if you are unable to get a library card, do not blame other people......


Missed that the first time, very funny!


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## con man (Mar 7, 2004)

there justa cheap fish and the only bad thing ive ever seen a goldfish do was pass an internal parasite.... but anyways u shoudl be able to quarntine ur goldfish and treat with something

wtf y does everyone jhave to hate on feeding ur fish goldfish wat do u think they feed on in the wild? sure as f*ck isnt flakes or pellets....

case closed fish in the wild eat other fish in the wild and the smaller ones eat alagea and wat not (small crustacenas) its how the hole ecosystem is balanced so u cant say a feeder fish is bad for a fish (unless it is carryina disease) and im willing to bet money that that "toxin" takes years upon years to build up to kill a fish


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I don't think you read all of the posts. You are making this out to be extremely simple.

case closed? not until you moderate this forum!









Name a list of your fish that you think eat fish in the wild, let's go from there.
Actually, name any of your fish that eat goldfish in the wild...


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## con man (Mar 7, 2004)

qoute"case closed fish in the wild eat other fish in the wild and the smaller ones eat alagea and wat not (small crustacenas) its how the hole ecosystem is balanced so u cant say a feeder fish is bad for a fish (unless it is carryina disease) and im willing to bet money that that "toxin" takes years upon years to build up to kill a fish "

^goldfish is not in that sentence (pike pickerel smallmouith bass largemouth bass black crappie sunfish cray fish and catfish all around here love goldfish on the end of a hook) so blah

looks like u didnt read my post lol

no harm meant


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Blah? The thread is about goldfish...









What I read in your post is that "fish eat fish" but besides some specific examples (fresh water barracuda come to mind), fish is not 100% of the menu for most fish.

You raise good points, I did read them, I swear!


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## con man (Mar 7, 2004)

lol i really havent seen anything diff from my dad feeding his oscar feeders for the last three years and nothing wrong yet (to tell the truth hes eaten other things oat times such as pellets when feeders rnt in the lfs) so id say 80percent of the time he eats feeders/krill/scallops in that order bprobly 75 percent feeders and scallops and krill alot less often anyways he eats mostly meat foods and hes definately a extremely healthy fish


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

con man said:


> lol i really havent seen anything diff from my dad feeding his oscar feeders for the last three years and nothing wrong yet (to tell the truth hes eaten other things oat times such as pellets when feeders rnt in the lfs) so id say 80percent of the time he eats feeders/krill/scallops in that order bprobly 75 percent feeders and scallops and krill alot less often anyways he eats mostly meat foods and hes definately a extremely healthy fish


Do you understand what the issue is here?
It's simple, The nutritional value of goldfish

Your fathers fish is irrelivent to this topic, and frankly your not proving your case 
any by using that as an example, The fish has a varied diet.

The fact is there is very good evidence based upon the process of 
peer review science that clearly says they suck, and this is
more than enough for me to conclude that
* Goldfish are a poor choice for consistant and frequent feeding.*

This does not mean they can't be fed to an animal, it means they are
inadaquate as a staple of the diet or as major portion of it.

Feeding is species dependent, just because you can get away with feeding
one species of fish one diet, does not mean that that same diet can apply to others,

Some species of fish will react badly to feedings of High Thiaminase based
animals. you can not blanket state so and so's Oscars healthy so all must be good
and Hunky dory altogether.

Knowledge of the nutritional needs of your animal is important to suceed with
them,

The lazy attitude of "It aggressive it must eat dem Feeders" is not adaquate
knowledge of the animal, it's needs, or in its best interest.

There is a shitload of info out there on the subject of fish nutrition,
This is very accessable info.

Sorry ranting again..................Bad Poly









Thiaminase

^
somewhere to start


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

i dont feed gold fish cause when i fed feeders i never noticed growth or healthy-ness in then reptile or fish

IMO i dont not think they are good to feed, some other fish are heathly to feed but gold fish have been inbreed so many times they just have diesease and a week imune system

now, in my cases, i had a garter snake and 3 fish die that i would feed gold fish to that had been qurentined for 2 weeks and they still gave my garter snake an internal diesease and then my 3 other fish got real pale, then died

that is just what happened in my cases, i do agree how ever that gold fish are not healthy and do not have much if any value


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## con man (Mar 7, 2004)

i reakky dont give to shits about feeders pellets or any other food but if i remenber correctly hikari ant that healthy either its like only 40 percent protien or w/e so who the hell cares its just goldfish feed if u want im sure u wiont see anything bad for a long time anyways(just my exsperence with oscars jds convicts and gts none stood on them constantlly but most were/are fed feeders 60percent of the time)just my 2 cents


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

So goldfish are 100% protein? 40% is actually pretty high, especially considering it's a "dry weight".


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## chomper (Sep 23, 2003)

As for nutrition, a goldfish feeder is an excellent diet for any fish. However the threat of transferring disease is very real and should be considered. I just use feeders in the cold months and try to avoid using them during the summer where they have their tremondous die offs.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

part of nutrition is protein content, fat content, vitamins....

All of these things are issues with goldfish (as stated above....)


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## Kory (Jun 5, 2003)

Are you people to f*cking dumb to read what was posted above by Crockeeper, Poly, and Acestro about the nutrition value of goldfish. Before making your stupid ass posts read that comprehend it and then realize the topic is not what your dad or what you did feeding goldfish to a f*cking Oscar for 4 years and it's still alive. The topic is about NUTRITIONAL VALUE OF GOLDFISH.

Do you people really think Goldfish are 100 % protein or that your fish needs that much protein in its diet. That's the equivalent of putting your damn fish on the doctor Atkins diet.

Sweet lu and Con man what the f*ck did you just say in your posts. Learn some proper grammar and spelling if you ever want to be taken seriously in your life


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Don't get me started on the grammar, I'm now resigning myself to the decline of the human race. Again, we are about two steps away from throwing our feces at each other..... anyhow....

It's true, read all of the posts before you comment. Once again, I may have to clean things up and remove non-intelligent posts. This is, after all, an "intelligent" forum with some great minds that don't need speed bumps (bad posts) slowing down good discussion.


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

good links, thats dudes..

about the oscar - common sence will tell you their main diet in the wild is insects by their shape, mouth size/shape, eyes, and how they act..

I think feeder goldfish are fine if you inject a source of vitamins into them befor feeding. the Thiamine is the only problem i see..


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Peacock said:


> good links, thats dudes..
> 
> about the oscar - common sence will tell you their main diet in the wild is insects by their shape, mouth size/shape, eyes, and how they act..
> 
> I think feeder goldfish are fine if you inject a source of vitamins into them befor feeding. the Thiamine is the only problem i see..


Thiaminase is but one issue, injecting vitamins will not alter there lack of value
as a staple food fish,

Honestly to make them worth feeding on a regular basis
would cost you more than to just feed the fish a diet without them.

This does not make sense, other more Accessable options exist
without extra effort or cost.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

acestro said:


> Don't get me started on the grammar, I'm now resigning myself to the decline of the human race. Again, we are about two steps away from throwing our feces at each other..... anyhow....












I dont have much to add other than I have not included goldfish as a diet to my fish in a at least a year and they are healthier than ever. Color has never been better.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

I chanced upon this article
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/invert.htm

it has some relevant information on this topic, just scroll down a bit


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

IS THIS POST TRUE, NOT? it has not been mentioned in this thread, if it is true

http://www.piranha-fury.com/forum/pfury/in...ndpost&p=519410


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

If you are refering to the Growth inhibiting quality, Yes
this is true,

it is another symptom of thiaminase and B vitamin 
deficiency, This is common in fish fed only a diet of Goldfish,


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Polypterus said:


> Peacock said:
> 
> 
> > good links, thats dudes..
> ...


 why wont it? what more do you need in your "staple" diet? Vitamins, minerals, protein, fat, carbohydrates.....


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Peacock said:


> Polypterus said:
> 
> 
> > Peacock said:
> ...


 is it worth your time spending some 50$ on an injectable Vitamin
solution, Going through the hassles of buying syringes and then individualy
weighting and properly dosing each feeder with the correct amount of
the solution to make them worthwhile?

It's a pain and not worth the effort, time, or money

I can feed my gar wild caught Shiners (Notropis) Knowing they
have better nutritional value with little risk, or feed any number
of prepared diets as a staple with Live animals regulated
only to the purpose of Behavioral enrichment.

Why bother to make a
potato chip healthy when options already exist to avoid that
with little effort or nessesity?

Goldfish are not much more than junk food to a Predatory fish,
And they are sold the same way, cheap and easy but lacking in 
quality or substance.

You can not make sh*t smell like a flower overnight,
and even if you do it's still sh*t.
Same goes for Goldfish as "Feeders".


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## Peacock (Feb 23, 2004)

Polypterus said:


> You can not make sh*t smell like a flower overnight,
> and even if you do it's still sh*t.
> Same goes for Goldfish as "Feeders".


 LOL... You kill me some times Poly.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

awesome


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## v4p0r (Aug 14, 2003)

So the wild-caught "feeders" are healthy?? I quite often seine minnows out of a nearby stream to use as feeders. of course i dont use them as the total diet of my fish but i do feed them about 40-50% of the time My P's are on a diet of earthworms and bluegill/bass. Is this a healthy dieti tend to stay away from mamals as feeders mainly because of the possible physical damage they could do.


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## 00nothing (Mar 26, 2004)

what about minnows from my local bait shop should i start buying them instead of godfish as feeders for my p's i dont feed exclusively feeders but it is definetly part of there diet they also get hikari sticks frozen cocktail shrimp and beefheart


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Local wild caught Minnows (Shiners) are much better nutrition wise
than goldfish from an LFS, Bait store fish are also very good.

Keep in mind though if your feeding them to P's definitly quarintine 
them for at least a week before feeding, during the Quarintine they should be
well fed also.

I know I can drop these right in the tank with a gar but I would not risk
just dropping anything in with P's, they are much more delicate and prone to
illness.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

What poly said.









From my experience there is no better way.


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## nnattereri (Aug 25, 2004)

Why is it that thiaminase concentration is so high in goldfish and not other fish? Have we concluded that this is the only problem or are they really lacking in other nutritional aspects as well? And doesn't Thiaminase just reduce growth rate? Or does it, at high concentrations cause bigger problems?
And whoever said goldfish have a weak immune system is horribly wrong, goldfish are extremely resistant to disease (if at least kept in moderate conditions).
So waht about other feeders that can be raised in your own home such as guppies or convicts, are they that much better for predators?


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

nnattereri said:


> Why is it that thiaminase concentration is so high in goldfish and not other fish? Have we concluded that this is the only problem or are they really lacking in other nutritional aspects as well?
> And doesn't Thiaminase just reduce growth rate? Or does it, at high concentrations cause bigger problems?
> * i believe they can cause nervous system damage too*
> 
> ...


here you go man


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Thiaminase is serious for reptiles and probably serious for fish as well.

Why take the risk?

If anyone has such doubts about goldfish, I challenge you to perform and experiment and feed one of your preds goldfish and the other one prepared foods. Measure growth before and 6 months after you start the treatments. Repeat that enough times and keep all other things (water conditions, temperature, etc.) equal and you'll see for yourself.


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