# How Do I Fix This, B4 Its To Late



## ___

My tank/equipment/stock

45gal
Fluval 304 bio wheel 350
1-- 8" MAC

I guess to get the best answers ill give every detail possible... so please bare with me

a couple of weeks ago I noticed my mac acting funny and hanging out towards the top of the tank near the heater. I just turned on the A/C in my house so I thought that was the deal. I let this got for a few days b4 posting this incident here in "Piranha discussion". After a few posts from other member I started to realize it was a water issue.... I had HIGH ammonia and low PH. I started treatment off with a water change added PH correct (not full dose) put ammo chips in the bio wheel. The next day tested, PH better ammonia no change... Did another water change and this time I added salt (members suggestion). Finished the WC checked everything the next day high ammonia still. I check the water out of each filter against the tank water same levels. I unplugged the fluval in hopes of resolve my issue sooner (one less thing to check) I was told to check for food in the filter, so I took the bio wheel out while doing a water change cleaned the housing out with HOT water (Did find really old food) and cleaned all the filter pads and media with tank water. Put everything back together fresh water with salt and amquel +. Next day slightly lower ammonia... Water change with salt and AQ+ again and again no lower then the first drop. Again I come to the site for help and thankfully someone informs me salt with ammo chips produce ammonia.... So two nights ago I do a water change with AQ+ no salt last night the level was lower but not gone so I did about water change no salt this morning I have the same levels but he now has some red (blood) coloring on his scales.

I'm trying everything I can... If you need to know anything else plz ask. I'm at work right now so I can't check the levels but I can reply to the thread from my phone

Thanks for any help you can provide


----------



## hastatus

Best advice. Produce a good quality photo of area where you see red.


----------



## ___

As soon as I can.... Like I said I'm at work

Thanks

I did a lot of research last night.... Everything is right on for ammonia poisoning


----------



## Guest

Also when you checked your ammonia levels what were they sitting at?


----------



## hastatus

" Last thing, The test kit I have is kinda old... would this screw up my readings, High ammonia level I believe but zero change I don't".

Get a new test kit and post the reading that ksls asked for.


----------



## ___

I will do that as soon as I get home.... I tested 3 other water sources and it read correct.

While I'm getting the kit should I get anything else... Most of the posts I read said to treat with prime, I was under the impression AQ+ and prime were the same

If there's even a difference..... Liquid kit or try the test strips.??

Thanks guys


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> I will do that as soon as I get home.... I tested 3 other water sources and it read correct.
> 
> While I'm getting the kit should I get anything else... Most of the posts I read said to treat with prime, I was under the impression AQ+ and prime were the same
> 
> If there's even a difference..... Liquid kit or try the test strips.??
> 
> Thanks guys


Can't answer you on chemicals. Never had a need to use them. Personal choice. But liquid is better if you follow directions carefully. Test on innocuous substance first. Where the reading is known to be stable. Best to do that at pet store. Then compare your readings. Then take a sample to pet store for confirmation. Its tedious but will give you best unbiased opinion. Or you can post here and get feed back.


----------



## BRUNER247

You tested 3 other water sources & it read correct? How do you know it read correct without a 2nd kit? Imo you should check your water straight from the tap(no prime or amquel) to determine your baseline pH & ammonia. I would take a sample to Lfs of both tank & untreated tap water & compare with what your getting as a reading. I would yank everything that's buffering your pH down like driftwood ect. I would suggest staying away from pH up or down crap(asking for trouble imo with pH changing chemicals). How deep is your gravel bed? If you know anyone local I'd suggest swapping some media, borrow a cycled filter or possibly moving your fish to a cycled tank until you find what the problem is & correct it. I would definitely all but stop feeding him also.


----------



## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> You tested 3 other water sources & it read correct? How do you know it read correct without a 2nd kit? Imo you should check your water straight from the tap(no prime or amquel) to determine your baseline pH & ammonia. I would take a sample to Lfs of both tank & untreated tap water & compare with what your getting as a reading. I would yank everything that's buffering your pH down like driftwood ect. I would suggest staying away from pH up or down crap(asking for trouble imo with pH changing chemicals). How deep is your gravel bed? If you know anyone local I'd suggest swapping some media, borrow a cycled filter or possibly moving your fish to a cycled tank until you find what the problem is & correct it. I would definitely all but stop feeding him also.


Bruner. He used an old test kit.


----------



## ___

my mistake I shouldn't have said the other readings were correct I should have said they seemed accurate for what I tested... I did my tank, my tap water and the tank at my mothers house.... Also the treated water going into my tank


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> my mistake I shouldn't have said the other readings were correct I should have said they seemed accurate for what I tested... I did my tank, my tap water and the tank at my mothers house.... Also the treated water going into my tank


If you know the readings post them along with your new test kit results when you have them.


----------



## ___

I don't remember the reading.... I only tested all of them the one time when I had concerns about my kit... im buying a new master kit right now (brake from work) ... Anything else I should get while I'm here


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> I don't remember the reading.... I only tested all of them the one time when I had concerns about my kit... im buying a new master kit right now (brake from work) ... Anything else I should get while I'm here


Don't buy anything else or add anything more until you know what your dealing with.


----------



## ___

No problem.... I have the kit, as soon as I get home ill check the levels


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> No problem.... I have the kit, as soon as I get home ill check the levels


I'll look in tonight. But I'm sure Ksls, Bruner or who ever else is here can help you out.


----------



## ___

.25.... Fins are starting to eat away


----------



## Guest

.25 is not all that high. Do another water change of 30-50%, then retest right after your water change, also now you have a new kit retest your tapwater.


----------



## ___

The kit says to check level after 5 sec.... After 5 minutes its at 2.0. Should I add anything with this water change

Tap water is at .50


----------



## TheCableGuy

I think adding some salt will ease the ammonia burn on your mac.
Hope it helps.


----------



## Guest

Well there's your problem, you cant have 0 ammonia when the water you are changing has .50 Have you tested the fresh tap water once you added dechlorinator?


----------



## ___

What chem. I have stress coat.... AQ+.... Prime and they all say the remove toxins

I pulled the ammo chips out last night so all I'm running are filter pads and the basket media


----------



## ___

I don't know if salt is safe or not..... Will it mess anything up..... Will it help

Thanks


----------



## Guest

If your tap water is .50 out of the tap then you only have a couple of options. You can treat it with Prime and do bi-weekly water changes and gravel vacs to keep things in check. Perhaps your filters arent completely cycled? You could also invest in a reverse osmosis system (which is quite a bit of $$) or you need to figure out another water source or you will always be having issues with ammonia.

I'm not on town water, I am on a well so this is not something I have come across. I honestly dont have any other suggestions for you. Perhaps another member might?


----------



## ___

Thanks


----------



## BRUNER247

___ said:


> The kit says to check level after 5 sec.... After 5 minutes its at 2.0. Should I add anything with this water change.
> Tap water is at .50


if salt releases ammonia from ammonia chips shouldn't members mention this when replying to ammonia threads? Didn't see you pulled chips already.


----------



## BRUNER247

After you treat with prime or amquel it should be zeroed out though(your tap water at waterchanges). What was your pH at tap & pH in tank. You mentioned low pH in tank.


----------



## BRUNER247

I've never used ammonia chips. But just did some quick reading & found some interesting ideas. Root cause is probably those chips. Why would chips be needed in the first place on a cycled tank? BB will take care of it. Now add ammonia chips, what's that do? It traps & collects ammonia. Stealing what your BB needs. Don't take my word for it, search it yourself & make your own mind. Like I say I've never used it.


----------



## ___

PH low out of tap....6.4.... In the tank its 6.0.









I did NOT add salt, haven't added any with the last 4 changes

This is down right shameful.... I can't believe it got this bad

I really appreciate all the help guys I really hope he pulls through.


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> PH low out of tap....6.4.... In the tank its 6.0.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did NOT add salt, haven't added any with the last 4 changes
> 
> This is down right shameful.... I can't believe it got this bad
> 
> I really appreciate all the help guys I really hope he pulls through.


I didn't go back to read. Just taking from here. You mentioned frayed fins. Often associated with ammonia burn or fungus. Likely the former. I don't recall if you tested the tap water for ammonia. If you did not, do so now. I still need a photo of your fish. Also a photo of your tank. Something is missing in all of this.


----------



## BRUNER247

Addind the chips killed his cycle. Imo


----------



## hastatus

Went back and re-read your readings. Sorry not on computer. Using Droid. .50 tap water is high in my opinion out of the tap. It indicates ammonia in the water. If memory serves me, chloromine in Tap water causes this increase. Sometimes as high as 1.0 .

What I suggest you do. Get a 5 or so gallon bucket. Put your tap water in it. Run airstones. Also use prime in that water. Any product that has chlorine/chloromine remover. Use this treated water in your aquarium. It takes roughly 24hrs to get readings lowered.


----------



## ___

He hit the rocks for about 10min..... Then started swimming around a bit... Then back on the rocks. He seems to be a lot better swimming around, I have a small powerhead should I put that back in


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> He hit the rocks for about 10min..... Then started swimming around a bit... Then back on the rocks. He seems to be a lot better swimming around, I have a small powerhead should I put that back in


What do you mean "hit the rocks"?

I'd still like to see a photo.


----------



## ___

He just slowly swam down to the stones an sat there...


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> He just slowly swam down to the stones an sat there...


Truthfully. That's not much to go on. I think I've offered as much as humanly possible without actually being there. Guess we wait and see.


----------



## ___

You have and I'm extremely grateful.... I really appreciate the help and info from you, burner and ksls

Thank you


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> You have and I'm extremely grateful.... I really appreciate the help and info from you, burner and ksls
> 
> Thank you


Your welcome from all of us. Keep monitoring your levels. As for powerhead. I'm hesitant to suggest using it while your fish is in weakened condition. His ability to stay upright might be compromised. Just play it by ear.


----------



## Guest

Honestly at this point I would go out and buy a couple of those water cooler jugs and do a water change with that. Dump it into a big rubbermaid container and add a heater. Then once up to temp. do a water change. At least you know that way you arent adding any ammonia to the tank. In theory, it then should significantly reduce the ammonia in your tank until you have done what Frank suggested and prepare water with prime for 24hrs.


----------



## BRUNER247

Imo the really old food you found in your filter & removing 1/2 your filtration caused a ammonia spike. Then you added ammonia chips which collect ammonia stealing it from your BB, which you already cut it in 1/2 by removing one of the filters. Add the many waterchanges with salt added in the mix & I think you lost your cycle. Also you should read the test kit when it says to. If it says 5secs than I'd read it close to that. 5min is quite a difference. It might be giving you a higher than actual reading because of the difference? Also I would add 1/2 teaspoon of amquel in 5gal bucket. Fill with water & test in 5min. If it still has ammonia. I'd double the dose(full teaspoon per 5gal) & fill & test in 5min. A double dose is still completely safe. You need a cycled filter ASAP.


----------



## ___

Just tested the water... PH 6.4/6.0... Ammonia no change, its at .25

I will go buy some of those big water cooler jugs and do the water changes with them... With those I would just ned to add a little conditioner and thats it right.

To clear something up.... Fill a 5gal bucket up (tank or freash) treat it with prime for 24hr then pour in in my tank or put my fish in it??

Guys I really can't say it enough thank you.... He made it through the night b/c of you guys, and I didn't think that was possible when I saw him at 5pm.... I'll do what ever of takes just let me know.

*************************************************************************
Posted @ 11:23am

It's killing me sitting at work not being able to do anything (not that there's much more I can do) so I've been reading ammonia related threads and from what I read in KO78 (can't get ammonia under control) it seems he stopped doing water changes and that helped. I don't know if this applies to me b/c I've already done a ton of other things to hurt my situation (i.e. chems, salt, ammo chips, unplugged a filter plus I have sh!*y tap water) so I'm not sure. I was doing them every other night but for the last few day to counter the salt & ammo chips reacting I've been doing then every night.

Next move???


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> Just tested the water... PH 6.4/6.0... Ammonia no change, its at .25
> 
> I will go buy some of those big water cooler jugs and do the water changes with them... With those I would just ned to add a little conditioner and thats it right.
> 
> To clear something up.... Fill a 5gal bucket up (tank or freash) treat it with prime for 24hr then pour in in my tank or put my fish in it??
> 
> Guys I really can't say it enough thank you.... He made it through the night b/c of you guys, and I didn't think that was possible when I saw him at 5pm.... I'll do what ever of takes just let me know.
> 
> *************************************************************************
> Posted @ 11:23am
> 
> It's killing me sitting at work not being able to do anything (not that there's much more I can do) so I've been reading ammonia related threads and from what I read in KO78 (can't get ammonia under control) it seems he stopped doing water changes and that helped. I don't know if this applies to me b/c I've already done a ton of other things to hurt my situation (i.e. chems, salt, ammo chips, unplugged a filter plus I have sh!*y tap water) so I'm not sure. I was doing them every other night but for the last few day to counter the salt & ammo chips reacting I've been doing then every night.
> 
> Next move???


Leave the fish where it is. Use the jugs solely for priming water. Use only that water for water changes in the future only because of your tap water issues. Don't pour untreated tap water in.

Keep us updated.


----------



## BRUNER247

Imo plug that 2nd filter back in. Throw the ammomia chips away n wait the cycle out. Little water change at peak spikes. But then again what do I know as I'm furys #1 worst member & a wanna be hobbist.lmao! Anyhow GL hope you get it under control soon. Maybe your Lfs would board your fish while you recycle your tank? Just a idea.


----------



## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> Imo plug that 2nd filter back in. Throw the ammomia chips away n wait the cycle out. Little water change at peak spikes. But then again what do I know as I'm furys #1 worst member & a wanna be hobbist.lmao! Anyhow GL hope you get it under control soon. Maybe your Lfs would board your fish while you recycle your tank? Just a idea.


Was that really necessary? This thread WAS going so well.


----------



## BRUNER247

Whatever Frank I'm just letting him know. By the way OP. Have you checked your well? You have something dead in it? Bet there's some dead snakes in it or something.


----------



## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> Whatever Frank I'm just letting him know. By the way OP. Have you checked your well? You have something dead in it? Bet there's some dead snakes in it or something.


Bruner he's on city water not well water.


----------



## ___

.... I'm on well water, NO local fish stores.... Petsmart ran the last one out.


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> .... I'm on well water, NO local fish stores.... Petsmart ran the last one out.


My misunderstanding reading ksls. I didn't see any reference to well water in your thread. Perhaps I did miss it


----------



## ___

I didn't say one way or the other.... Just ran home, he's not doing good at all

WATER
PH: 6.0/6.4
Ammonia: .25
Zero. Nitrite and Nitrate... This mean its cycling right

I took the fluval off poured it out and its been sitting for 2 days.... Not sure that would be safe at this point?


----------



## BRUNER247

I thought I read well water. Anyhow just a thought. Another thing nobody else brought up or discussed. This homemade gel. Have you been feeding this the whole time since you tested your water last year? Do you feed it everyday or increased how often & have you tested your water after feeding it the gel base food? One last thing did you add the ammonia chips to your bio-wheel before the Mac was acting funny? I'm not implying anything just trying to help. Maybe you could start a new thread n mods could lock or delete these 2 & start from scratch. Have members think city n well, lots of info still missing ect. From what I've read ammonia chips in a bio-wheel makes no sense to me. Defeats the purpose of both imo anyhow.

DO NOT put that filter back on without cleaning it VERY good. Then clean it again


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> I didn't say one way or the other.... Just ran home, he's not doing good at all
> 
> WATER
> PH: 6.0/6.4
> Ammonia: .25
> Zero. Nitrite and Nitrate... This mean its cycling right
> 
> I took the fluval off poured it out and its been sitting for 2 days.... Not sure that would be safe at this point?


Its important to tell us everything you can about the fished situation. Including where the water is coming from. Well, bottled or tap (city). Omitting any if this can also create a bad situation worse. Enough if lecturing







.

At this point and time am at a loss how to proceed next. Like I said to you before and now Bruner. Something is missing. My views are to do no further harm to the fish. Just monitor conditions.


----------



## ___

The gel food was some what of a treat... He mostly got shrimp, tilapia, and some shark and other fresh meats. I would feed him every other day or every third day.

I added the ammo chips only after I saw extremely high levels (after he started acting funny)...


----------



## ___

Sorry for leaving that out... Didn't know it matted once it was treated.

At this point there's nothing missing, I think the issue is all the stuff I was trying to do to fix it and ultimately the ammo chips, not only were that bad for my BB but they created ammonia once I added the salt. Hard to say but I would prob be better off if I would have stayed from chems.


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> Sorry for leaving that out... Didn't know it matted once it was treated.
> 
> At this point there's nothing missing, I think the issue is all the stuff I was trying to do to fix it and ultimately the ammo chips, not only were that bad for my BB but they created ammonia once I added the salt. Hard to say but I would prob be better off if I would have stayed from chems.


In my opinion chemicals should only be used if there are real issues. In this case your water. Setting up a container for treated aged water is the way to go. All the other bells and whistles can only aggravate a situation where there is none.


----------



## ___

hastatus said:


> Sorry for leaving that out... Didn't know it matted once it was treated.
> 
> At this point there's nothing missing, I think the issue is all the stuff I was trying to do to fix it and ultimately the ammo chips, not only were that bad for my BB but they created ammonia once I added the salt. Hard to say but I would prob be better off if I would have stayed from chems.


In my opinion chemicals should only be used if there are real issues. In this case your water. Setting up a container for treated aged water is the way to go. All the other bells and whistles can only aggravate a situation where there is none.
[/quote]

I try to only use chems to treat the water for a water change and nothing else, but when I saw the ammonia level as high as it could go I kinda freaked out and was trying anything to fix it.


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> Sorry for leaving that out... Didn't know it matted once it was treated.
> 
> At this point there's nothing missing, I think the issue is all the stuff I was trying to do to fix it and ultimately the ammo chips, not only were that bad for my BB but they created ammonia once I added the salt. Hard to say but I would prob be better off if I would have stayed from chems.


In my opinion chemicals should only be used if there are real issues. In this case your water. Setting up a container for treated aged water is the way to go. All the other bells and whistles can only aggravate a situation where there is none.
[/quote]

I try to only use chems to treat the water for a water change and nothing else, but when I saw the ammonia level as high as it could go I kinda freaked out and was trying anything to fix it.
[/quote]
Understandable







. I use a good rule myself. Cause no harm. You did the right thing by asking for help. That's the first step for a good future aquarist.


----------



## ___

Well I've done everything I can do at this point... I have to wait out the cycle. I'll keep my eye on the levels and do 15% if need be. Other then that I wait

Thanks guys


----------



## ___

He didn't make it through night















RIP FLUFFY


----------



## hastatus

___ said:


> He didn't make it through night
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RIP FLUFFY


Sorry to hear that. It happens.


----------



## TheCableGuy

Sorry for your loss


----------



## TRIG

dang that's too bad, don't give up!


----------

