# Why Is Feeding Live Such An Issue With Piranha?



## 4tanks (Feb 8, 2011)

I was just wondering why diseases and parasites are such an issue when it comes to feeding live to Piranhas but not a problem when you are feeding other fish like Oscars, Clown Knives or Arowanas, are Piranha just that more susceptible to diseases?


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## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

anything live is not good unless it has been quarantined. the quarantine stage allows you to ensure there are no diseases or parasites in the fish your feeding. also some live foods such as gold fish have growth inhibiting hormones and are never good to feed so we suggest staying away from those completely. it doesnt matter what fish your feeding live to whether its a piranha, a oscar, etc you need to be careful to not feed them diseased fish so quarantining the live feeders you offer is a must to ensure this.


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## chrscap (Feb 16, 2007)

I'm assuming you are talking about goldfish, goldfish can be one of the most unhealthiest live feeder. They can carry a handful of diseases then the "other fish".

Then again, anything "live" can carry any type of bad bacterial/diseases/parasites.

Quarantine all your live food, its the best preventative. Not really an issue, just not suggested.

This goes for all pet fish, not just piranha.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

Feeders can be a problem with any fish. The best advice I can give is either don't use them or if you do try to quarantine them first and use non goldfish fish like convicts or something that isn't kept 20 per gallon at a lfs. Generally feeders are kept in way overstocked tanks which allows disease and sickness to easily spread throughout the group so thats one reason feeders often carry disease. An analogy would be 20 people living in a bedroom with one sick. If your in that close of contact with the others (including the sick one) chances are you and/or others will become sick too. Now instead of 1 sick there may be 10. Back to fish that would mean half the fish in the tank may be sick and I doubt you want to feed your fish a sick fish.

How to use feeders safely (well safer):

1) Quarantine fish for a month to watch for any signs of disease or sickness

2) QT in a clean tank that is not overstocked.

3) Use feeders suck as convicts that are non carps and bought from nicer tanks. If you breed something like convicts the QT period will be done when they are feeder size.

4) possibly treat the fish for disease/parisites and gutload them with healthy foods.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

To my knowledge, piranhas are no more susceptible to diseases from feeders than any other fish.


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## Da' Manster! (Sep 1, 2009)

Well, most of my fellow P-Furian members know where I stand on this issue so no need to rehash it as I'm very passionate and adamant about it and normally I don't get involved in debates like this because they have absolutely no merit and it will turn into a pissing contest...I disagree with the above members as it has never been proven that feeder goldfish inhibits growth..It's all conjecture and theory...As i've said before, all the piranha's I've ever owned were healthy, aggressive, and beautiful and I've always used feeder goldfish as a staple in their diet...My beautiful black diamond rhom that I raised from dime size to roughly 9 inches in a 5 year span was given primarily feeder goldfish...Anyhow, I've been doing it for over 25+ years with *NO* problems.

Also, disease is usually brought up by poor water quality and faulty heaters (something that I have emphasized in the past)which lowers a fish's immune system making it more suspectible to contract illnesses and disease..I don't agree with the "Quarantine" issue!...If you want to do it fine, but it's not necessary, IMO...Also, if you look at the "Disease and Parasite" section of this website, you will see that the vast majority are from members who only feed "non live" and frozen...coincedence?!...







...I think not...Frozen and non-live is OK if you want to go that route (and I do it also) but let's not make it the end all, be all when it comes to feeding!...this will be the last time I say this as it pertains to feeding!...


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

Da said:


> Well, most of my fellow P-Furian members know where I stand on this issue so no need to rehash it as I'm very passionate and adamant about it and normally I don't get involved in debates like this because they have absolutely no merit and it will turn into a pissing contest...I disagree with the above members as it has never been proven that feeder goldfish inhibits growth..It's all conjecture and theory...As i've said before, all the piranha's I've ever owned were healthy, aggressive, and beautiful and I've always used feeder goldfish as a staple in their diet...My beautiful black diamond rhom that I raised from dime size to roughly 9 inches in a 5 year span was given primarily feeder goldfish...Anyhow, I've been doing it for over 25+ years with *NO* problems.
> 
> Also, disease is usually brought up by poor water quality and faulty heaters (something that I have emphasized in the past)which lowers a fish's immune system making it more suspectible to contract illnesses and disease..I don't agree with the "Quarantine" issue!...If you want to do it fine, but it's not necessary, IMO...Also, if you look at the "Disease and Parasite" section of this website, you will see that the vast majority are from members who only feed "non live" and frozen...coincedence?!...
> 
> ...


Thiaminase destroys thiamin, which is important in energy metabolism -- it has definitely been proven to inhibit growth and thiamine deficiencies cause other health problems as well. Using feeders that are high in thiaminase (including feeder gold fish) can cause deficiencies if fed too often or exclusively.

I don't really know how anyone can argue that there are no risks of disease and parasites from feeding live feeders, especially those that haven't been quarantined and come from horribly overstocked tanks with terrible water quality. This is more an issue of what hobbyists consider to be acceptable risks than it is black and white/right or wrong, I choose not to add any more risk factors to my tank than what I feel is acceptable and I draw that line before live feeders, if other people choose to include live feeders in what they find acceptable, that is their choice.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

Da said:


> Well, most of my fellow P-Furian members know where I stand on this issue so no need to rehash it as I'm very passionate and adamant about it and normally I don't get involved in debates like this because they have absolutely no merit and it will turn into a pissing contest...I disagree with the above members as it has never been proven that feeder goldfish inhibits growth..It's all conjecture and theory...As i've said before, all the piranha's I've ever owned were healthy, aggressive, and beautiful and I've always used feeder goldfish as a staple in their diet...My beautiful black diamond rhom that I raised from dime size to roughly 9 inches in a 5 year span was given primarily feeder goldfish...Anyhow, I've been doing it for over 25+ years with *NO* problems.


I agree this topic is often debated with little fact. Gold fish do inhibit growth but the thing most people don't know is to what degree and if it is anything significant or not. I have yet to see any side by side comparisons of fish that eat goldfish vs a non goldfish diet.

I've also heard that goldfish have no nutritional value and I don't really beleive it as I have never seen proof. I would think a gold fish would have similar nutritional value to any other fish in the world that is used for food. Either way I generally say just stay away from goldfish due to their health issuses due to practices surrounding any feeder fish and if anything do something like convicts that you can raise yourself.


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## notoriouslyKEN (Jul 31, 2003)

I found a good thread on nutritional value of feeders on Monster fish. Some PhD sampled 100g of tissue from multiple fish and analyzed them for protein/fat/vitamin content.

Live Fish as Food

I have no objection feeding live fish to your piranha, but like any diet, it should be varied. You wouldn't be healthy if the only thing you ate was chicken.


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## Joe.G (Dec 20, 2010)

Ok, I am no expert. But my last Batch of 4 Red Belly P's that I had from quart size till about 8 Inch and over 7 years ate nothing but Gold Fish and Minnows the Minnows were either taken out of the pond or I got them from the Bait shop. They ate Gold Fish every week. The fish had nice color and never seemed to have any ilness. I would some times buy a bunch at a time nad put them in a tank to hold them so I wouldnt have to go to store as often. THAT IS ALL THEY ATE THERE WHOLE LIFE.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

Joe.G said:


> Ok, I am no expert. But my last Batch of 4 Red Belly P's that I had from quart size till about *8 Inch and over 7 years* ate nothing but Gold Fish and Minnows the Minnows were either taken out of the pond or I got them from the Bait shop. They ate Gold Fish every week. The fish had nice color and never seemed to have any ilness. I would some times buy a bunch at a time nad put them in a tank to hold them so I wouldnt have to go to store as often. THAT IS ALL THEY ATE THERE WHOLE LIFE.


That's not exactly the best evidence for not having an effect on growth -- natts should hit 6-8 inches within the first year.


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## Joe.G (Dec 20, 2010)

I know I am not saying that it doesnt stunt growth I am just saying that its not the worst thing in the world. I dont feed live food anymore. Just because of what I have heard from here.


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## shaneb (May 4, 2010)

I dont think there has ever and let me repeat EVER been a real study done on this subject. Most is folk lore that gets turned into forum Facts...

You must setup multiple different tanks and feed some tanks only live goldfish and some only non live food. You have to do this over a course of years and keep accurate notes and measurements. Until this is done its all just speculation at best.

Just like a engineer that draws something on paper and says it should work. You really have no idea till you get it in the field and test it. Just because someones THINKS they know doesn't make it so.

For every guy you can find that blames a goldfish for killing there p's I can find 10 that have only ever fed there p's goldfish and the p's lived a long normal life..

I dont think it stunts growth. I have had my RBP for over a year and there main diet consists of live feeders. Goldfish, convicts, and guppies. They also eat pellets shrimp and talapia. Mine are 9 inches, 8 inches and 7 inches (the 7 incher was bought months after i purchased the first two)


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

CLUSTER ONE said:


> Well, most of my fellow P-Furian members know where I stand on this issue so no need to rehash it as I'm very passionate and adamant about it and normally I don't get involved in debates like this because they have absolutely no merit and it will turn into a pissing contest...I disagree with the above members as it has never been proven that feeder goldfish inhibits growth..It's all conjecture and theory...As i've said before, all the piranha's I've ever owned were healthy, aggressive, and beautiful and I've always used feeder goldfish as a staple in their diet...My beautiful black diamond rhom that I raised from dime size to roughly 9 inches in a 5 year span was given primarily feeder goldfish...Anyhow, I've been doing it for over 25+ years with *NO* problems.


*I agree this topic is often debated with little fact. Gold fish do inhibit growth but the thing most people don't know is to what degree and if it is anything significant or not. I have yet to see any side by side comparisons of fish that eat goldfish vs a non goldfish diet.*
I've also heard that goldfish have no nutritional value and I don't really beleive it as I have never seen proof. I would think a gold fish would have similar nutritional value to any other fish in the world that is used for food. Either way I generally say just stay away from goldfish due to their health issuses due to practices surrounding any feeder fish and if anything do something like convicts that you can raise yourself.
[/quote]

That would be a cool experiment... 
Something to consider down the road.
Feed one tank nothing but quarantined goldfish, the other a mixed diet.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

shaneb said:


> I dont think there has ever and let me repeat EVER been a real study done on this subject. Most is folk lore that gets turned into forum Facts...
> 
> You must setup multiple different tanks and feed some tanks only live goldfish and some only non live food. You have to do this over a course of years and keep accurate notes and measurements. Until this is done its all just speculation at best.
> 
> ...


There have definitely been studies done on the effects of thiaminase, you can find studies done by universities/scientists with a quick Google search.

Feeding the occasional goldfish or even a good amount of goldfish won't cause thiamin deficiencies as long as you feed a varied diet. The potential for problems comes when they are fed exclusively or almost exclusively.


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## shaneb (May 4, 2010)

I will say this though. I think my reds are more skittish then most peoples and I think this may have to do with the fact I feed live. They are not used to me being the guy that feeds them. They do most of there own hunting for food. They wont take pellets or frozen food when i am in front of the tank. As soon as i move out of eye sight they attack pellets on top of the water(Like a Bass hitting a buzz bait). I think maybe feeding frozen for the most part helps bond the p's to the owners. Mine just kinda look at me like "Oh Great heres that guy who always jacks with our tank".. LOL


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

shaneb said:


> I will say this though. I think my reds are more skittish then most peoples and I think this may have to do with the fact I feed live. They are not used to me being the guy that feeds them. They do most of there own hunting for food. They wont take pellets or frozen food when i am in front of the tank. As soon as i move out of eye sight they attack pellets on top of the water(Like a Bass hitting a buzz bait). I think maybe feeding frozen for the most part helps bond the p's to the owners. Mine just kinda look at me like "Oh Great heres that guy who always jacks with our tank".. LOL


That's actually something I haven't really thought of... My fish see me coming with a cup that has food in it and they go nuts, they come right up to the surface to take the fillet or shrimp -- they definitely know I'm their source of food.


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## shaneb (May 4, 2010)

Your saying there has been clinical studies done with live feeding goldfish to piranhas? I am talking specific studies on Piranhas and the effects of feeding live goldfish.

Unless someone did this test on piranha specifically you can not say what it would or wouldn't do. How do you know a Piranha doesn't have a specific enzyme in its body that counteracts this. The answer is you dont unless test were done specifically with goldfish and p's.

If the tests were not done on P's then its like comparing apples and oranges. Yes they are both fruits but very different.

I did a quick google search and couldn't find any studies done specifically with goldfish and piranhas.

Joe , dont take this the wrong way. Just debating stuff. I hope you know i value your opinion very much


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

Thiamese will stunt growth though I don't think anybody really knows the extent. Its not apples and oranges as there are many biological processes shared between animals so you don't need to test a p to know its effects on a p if you tested on another animal that has a near identical biological process.

One thing Im not sure of is the extent goldfish will reduce growth as is 8" in 7 years a result of thamese or is it a result on a diet that was not varied? What if a p was fed only convicts for 7 years? Would they be bigger, smaller, the same...? Untill a study is done on various foods I think its impossible to say how much thiamese effects fish and how much just the lack of food variety effects them. It would be cool if somebody got like 1075g to try this but its alot of work and worthless if you don't know how to isolate variables properly.


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## shaneb (May 4, 2010)

> Thiamese will stunt growth though I don't think anybody really knows the extent. Its not apples and oranges as there are many biological processes shared between animals so you don't need to test a p to know its effects on a p if you tested on another animal that has a near identical biological process.


Cluster , I see what your saying but what about this...

Why is it when they test humans they try and get a varied group of races and ages. We all have basically the same biological process but some races are more susceptible to certain things then other races. Couldn't they just test one race since we have near identical biological makeup?



> One thing Im not sure of is the extent goldfish will reduce growth as is 8" in 7 years a result of thamese or is it a result on a diet that was not varied? What if a p was fed only convicts for 7 years? Would they be bigger, smaller, the same...? Untill a study is done on various foods I think its impossible to say how much thiamese effects fish and how much just the lack of food variety effects them. It would be cool if somebody got like 1075g to try this but its alot of work and worthless if you don't know how to isolate variables properly.


I see what your saying in the second part.

I feed mainly Live and mine have grown on average what everyone says they should. Now I wonder sometimes what if I would have fed a different diet. Would they be even bigger?

The reason I use the have there been any "specific" study's done on piranhas and the effects of Thiamese is because I know there hasn't been one done.

What would be the point?

You would have to bust out a sh*t load of tanks and do allot of data recording so a small group of people (In the overall scheme of things we are a small niche group) can know if they are right or not.. LOL

Cluster Same goes for you bud. Just debating and hope you dont take this as me trying to be a douche. Its nice to have civil debates once in awhile. They are getting rarer and rarer on forums across the globe..


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

First off not all rbp will reach 10"-12" the norm is 7"-8". Second. Not all fish will reach the same size nor grow the same speed. I see it thoughout their grow whether they're 1/4" or 4". Doesn't matter tank size or diet, some just don't grow as fast & some grow faster than normal.just like some will die when they're a week old, some when they're a month old. No amount of studies will prove squat. Fish from the same batch grow at different speeds. I look at it like a spoiled rich kid that never gets dirty or exsposed to germs. Every lil cold germ this kid comes in contact with, he's getting sick! Verse the grubby getto kid thats exsposed to germs n dirt, this kid could laugh at most colds as his system is used to it. Piranha in the wild, are voltures of the amazon. I've fed goldfish & minnows with no problems from sickness nor with growth. If anything I believe they'll get lil bigger from eating a lot of live.this is why I believe captives have been slowly getting bigger in tank verse wild caughts. This feeder debate isn't that old. Piranha & other predator fish have been eating feeders for decades before this feeder BS. Feed a wide variety diet & don't worry about it.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

shaneb said:


> Why is it when they test humans they try and get a varied group of races and ages. We all have basically the same biological process but some races are more susceptible to certain things then other races. Couldn't they just test one race since we have near identical biological makeup?
> 
> That is to get a highly accurate answer for usually specific processes. If your theory was entierly true why is there animal testing for human products? Are chimps the same as humans... no. Are they farily similar and can give us a good indication of various causes and effects... yes. If one animal is poisionous/lethal to a chimp is it that hard to beleive it would be poisionus or lethal to a human? I don't know about you but if some other animal or chemical is able to harm most animals chances are it will have some negative effect on humans. Is this always accurate? No, but it does give a good indicator of a substances effect on animals as it is impractical to test the effect of a specific substance on every species of animal in the world. In the end there may be some exception to the rule but in general this method will prove right for the vast majority of the time. It is simply not practical to test the effect of differnt substances on every animal while it is alot more practical to test a substance on various types of animals then extrapolate those results across similar animals
> 
> ...


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## Da' Manster! (Sep 1, 2009)

Well I'm glad others have chimed in and we are having a cool debate without resorting to name-calling and insults!...







...I mentioned this on other threads, but I've always done 1/3 smelt, 1/3 bloodworms, and 1/3 feeder goldfish!...*NEVER* had a problem!...That is why I think the whole disease and parasite thing is blown way out of proportion as it pertains to feeders...How come in the "disease and parasite" section of this website, the vast majority of illnesses are fish that are fed non-live and/or frozen?!...coincedence?!...







....Remember, Pedro and Alex still feed their piranhas goldfish as well as have others that have been in this hobby for a very long time!...But then again, what do they know?!..right?!!...







...I've said it once, and I'll say it again, as far as the thiaminase issue goes, it's more fiction than fact...There isn't really anykind of empirical data to support it one way or the other...hence, as shaneb said, and as i've said on the other thiaminase thread, it's more urban legend than fact and basically just a myth that gets perpetuated on various messageboards...Remember, shrimp has just as much thiaminase as feeder goldfish, so members that feed their piranhas shrimp are guilty of the same thing!

@Joe & Sean,
God bless!...always good debating "controversial" issues with you guys!...


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

Da said:


> Well I'm glad others have chimed in and we are having a cool debate without resorting to name-calling and insults!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The thiaminase issue isn't fiction, thiaminase is an enzyme that breaks down thiamine, which is an important part of energy metabolism -- thiamine deficiencies can lead to all sorts of problems in humans and animals alike. I don't understand how anyone can argue against scientific research with "I feed my fish goldfish and they are fine, so the thiaminase issue is made up". As I said before, just consuming some thiaminase isn't going to automatically stunt your fish or make them go belly up -- the problems arise when they are consuming so much thiaminase that it is causing a thiamine deficiency. As long as you are feeding a varied diet, thiaminase shouldn't be a big deal.

Certain shrimp do contain thiaminase, therefore feeding a diet consisting of nothing but thiaminase-containing shrimp could cause problems down the road.

The issue with disease/parasites paired with the thiaminase content is usually why people tend to steer clear of goldfish -- in my mind, the disease/parasite issue is what makes me steer clear. Sure, healthy fish usually won't be at a huge risk of picking up disease from infected feeders, but I don't feel comfortable with the risk involved when I have the choice to avoid it. As for the germ analogy -- I'm definitely not going to be crazy and prevent my kid from coming into contact with any germs, dirt, etc., but at the same time, I'd like to avoid sticking him in a room with a bunch of kids with strep throat.


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## Sanjo Eel (Aug 21, 2008)

My fish get a varied diet, but I am going to start including more live food, and here is why: Goldfish/thiaminase debate aside, in my opinion the best food for a fish is another fish. It has everything they need, even vegetable matter in the gut of the prey. There is no way to artificially duplicate the nutrition of a fish to a degree that would offer all the trace nutrients and found in a whole live fish. Sure there are risks of parasites or whatever, but you take the risk every time you eat an oyster, sushi, or a rare steak. Everybody knows the fish love it too. They love it for a reason, they are fin nippers and hunters as well as scavengers, and it is what they were evolved to do.


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## 4tanks (Feb 8, 2011)

First of all I'd like to apologize for starting this trend, I didn't notice it was a pinned topic. Next I'd like to thank everybody that responded lol looks like we are all over the place. I have never fed my P's feeders but I do/did have a 40gal tank that I kept feeders in for my other fish. Like many of you, I have had fish for like 25 years at one point I had a clown knife that lived over 15 years and he wasn't interested in anything but feeders. I decided to switch the feeder tank over to a convict tank and go that route for feeders. I'm a little frustrated right now, the tank had gravel for substrate I wanted to switch to white sand, it also had an under gravel filter which I removed. In addition to that I had a marineland biowheel 400 and a fluval 403. I figured with this fluval and biowheel I could do the switch over and not have a cycle issue. Lot of filtration for a feeder tank huh? Well in the middle of the switch over the fluval decided to take a dump so I took a sponge filter from another established tank and am running it with the biowheel filter. I got two convicts and my water parameters are ammonia .25 nitrite .25 and nitrate 20 so I'm thinking there is a mini cycle going on. I was thinking if I need to do some water changes I might add water from my 100 gal or 150 gal that have perfect parameters, good idea or not? On all my tanks I'm pretty anal and I do 25% water changes every week and I'm constantly testing the water too. Last but not least here is a pic of the new member to the family.


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