# Vatican rejects 'intelligent design' theory?



## Mettle (Dec 29, 2003)

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17162341-13762,00.html

Discuss.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

it's a point that should be considered. i don't anyone in the world truly believes that the universe just appeared out of nowhere. even a lot of big bang theorists believe in some other force that might have sparked the creation. if you think about it, the big bang leans more towards the idea that there is a creator.

one thing that i never saw mention of (in the bible) was dinosaurs, which have been proven to have existed. one could actually say that the dinosaurs existed during the time that 'god' was creating the earth and before he created adam. after all, in the beginning of time a day was not necessarily 24 hours.

anyhow, maybe religious leaders are starting to broaden their previously narrow view. you never know.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

nice the chatolics make teh christians look lieka bunch of religous nuts for taking the bible too literally..


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## Clay (Feb 28, 2003)

The pope already said that evolution was a credible theory years ago.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I agree with the cardinal and have so stated in other prevous "old" topics. I believe acestro got a dose of it from me when I quoted Genesis to him word for word. Certainly parallels evolution in my opinion. The "intelligent design" is not my cup of tea.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> I agree with the cardinal and have so stated in other prevous "old" topics. I believe acestro got a dose of it from me when I quoted Genesis to him word for word. Certainly parallels evolution in my opinion. The "intelligent design" is not my cup of tea.


quoting from any modern version of the bible "word for word" doesn't mean much. seeing as how there are more than 3 different versions, who is to say that acestro didn't have a version that stated something much different from yours. and furthermore, why would yours be more right than his (if he had one). the words of the bible have been altered so much and translated in so many different ways that i believe it's unreliable.


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## bowserfins (Apr 14, 2005)

[/quote]

Yes but not all christians are catholic.... I think nismo is referring to the non catholic christians looking like nuts, because the catholic christians take the bible too seriosly...


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2005)

> Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.


I agree. 
Even when I was religous, I didn't believe the Bible was meant to be read as a historical text. To me, the Bible should be read for its metaphors and connotations.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> hyphen Posted Today, 03:43 PM
> QUOTE(nismo driver @ Nov 8 2005, 01:56 PM)
> 
> nice the chatolics make teh christians look lieka bunch of religous nuts for taking the bible too literally..
> ...


Because Tom didn't know the King James Version, so I quoted it for him from my 1952 reprint. Besides I don't see what you stated to me as relevent to this discussion.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

what i stated was that what you stated was irrelevant. i can quote a verse from the holy bible, king hyphen version release 6. it says on the 6th day i created dingleberries.

acestro getting a 'dose' from you is relevant how?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> hyphen Posted Today, 07:47 PM
> what i stated was that what you stated was irrelevant. i can quote a verse from the holy bible, king hyphen version release 6. it says on the 6th day i created dingleberries.
> 
> acestro getting a 'dose' from you is relevant how?


Never mind. I see where you are headed with this.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

hyphen said:


> it's a point that should be considered. i don't anyone in the world truly believes that the universe just appeared out of nowhere. even a lot of big bang theorists believe in some other force that might have sparked the creation. if you think about it, the big bang leans more towards the idea that there is a creator.
> 
> one thing that i never saw mention of (in the bible) was dinosaurs, which have been proven to have existed. one could actually say that the dinosaurs existed during the time that 'god' was creating the earth and before he created adam. after all, in the beginning of time a day was not necessarily 24 hours.
> 
> anyhow, maybe religious leaders are starting to broaden their previously narrow view. you never know.


The Bible refers to many the common animals we know today. The list includes lions, wolves, bears, sheep, cattle and dogs along with various kinds of birds, rodents, reptiles, and insects. What is interesting is that this extensive list includes three animals that we no longer recognize. These three are (in the original Hebrew language) tanniyn, [email protected] (yes, it's spelled correctly-at least as close as we can get in Roman characters), and livyathan.

Although we alter the spelling of behemoth and Leviathan slightly, we still use those same words in bibles today. However, tanniyn is always translated into another word when we write it in English. Tanniyn occurs 28 times in the Bible and is normally translated "dragon." It is also translated "serpent," "sea monster," "dinosaur," "great creature," and "reptile." Behemoth and Leviathan are relatively specific creatures, perhaps each was a single kind of animal. Tanniyn is a more general term, and it can be thought of as the original version of the word "dinosaur." The word "dinosaur" was originally coined in 1841, more than three thousand years after the Bible first referred to "Tanniyn." To make things clearer, we constructed the following table comparing the scientific names with the Biblical names tanniyn, behemoth, and Leviathan.

From http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml if you need more info


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## eL ChiNo LoCo (Apr 16, 2004)

hyphen said:


> what i stated was that what you stated was irrelevant. i can quote a verse from the holy bible, king hyphen version release 6. it says on the 6th day i created dingleberries.
> 
> acestro getting a 'dose' from you is relevant how?


Hahaha... I dont believe in the Darwin Theory, mainly because my religion doesnt believe in it....so me+religion=follower. But if I wasnt apart of any religion, Id probably believe it.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

hastatus said:


> I agree with the cardinal and have so stated in other prevous "old" topics. I believe acestro got a dose of it from me when I quoted Genesis to him word for word. Certainly parallels evolution in my opinion. The "intelligent design" is not my cup of tea.


If you read Genesis carefully, you'll see after each day of creation God says "And the evening and the morning" were the first day, evening and the morning were the second day, evening and the morning were the third day, etc. Even and morning=one day, not thousands of years as in evolution.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

interesting read! i'm going to have to look up those verses.



eL ChiNo LoCo said:


> what i stated was that what you stated was irrelevant. i can quote a verse from the holy bible, king hyphen version release 6. it says on the 6th day i created dingleberries.
> 
> acestro getting a 'dose' from you is relevant how?


Hahaha... I dont believe in the Darwin Theory, mainly because my religion doesnt believe in it....so me+religion=follower. But if I wasnt apart of any religion, Id probably believe it.
[/quote]

in other words you let someone else think for you.


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2005)

eL ChiNo LoCo said:


> what i stated was that what you stated was irrelevant. i can quote a verse from the holy bible, king hyphen version release 6. it says on the 6th day i created dingleberries.
> 
> acestro getting a 'dose' from you is relevant how?


Hahaha... I dont believe in the Darwin Theory, mainly because my religion doesnt believe in it....so me+religion=follower. But if I wasnt apart of any religion, Id probably believe it.
[/quote]

Thats the most fucked up sh*t Ive heard in a while


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## Uncle Rico (Sep 4, 2005)

nismo driver said:


> nice the chatolics make teh christians look lieka bunch of religous nuts for taking the bible too literally..


 I dont know where you've been, but a lot of Christians do not take the Old testament literally, Catholic or not.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Jesus quoted extensively from the Old Testament and took It literally. If the Old Testament is good enough for Jesus, It's good enough for me.


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

rchan11 said:


> I agree with the cardinal and have so stated in other prevous "old" topics. I believe acestro got a dose of it from me when I quoted Genesis to him word for word. Certainly parallels evolution in my opinion. The "intelligent design" is not my cup of tea.


If you read Genesis carefully, you'll see after each day of creation God says "And the evening and the morning" were the first day, evening and the morning were the second day, evening and the morning were the third day, etc. Even and morning=one day, not thousands of years as in evolution.
[/quote]

I beleive in the bible, but alot of it is symbolic, wich i beleive the 7 days of creation is, and suppsedly were still on the 7th day


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## Kohan Bros. (Aug 24, 2004)

i also believe that most of genesis is just very simbolic. that it is not litteral. i believe that God is the creator of everything including dinosaurs


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2005)

They denied the Gnostic Bibles, why would we expect them to accept this?


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

i love how this whole inteligent design BS is just and stupid american issue.. not only that but i wouldnt be surprised if you polled people to find out who is afraid of bird flu and who supports intelligent design you would probably find a high number of peopel that belive in intelligent design are afraid of avian flu, which happens to be a perfect example of evolution.. people are fuckin idiots in this country


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> Jesus quoted extensively from the Old Testament and took It literally. If the Old Testament is good enough for Jesus, It's good enough for me.


just want to encourage you to keep going, you are doing great man.. lol you have made the best comments in this thread absolutely IMO


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Jesus quoted extensively from the Old Testament and took It literally. If the Old Testament is good enough for Jesus, It's good enough for me.


just want to encourage you to keep going, you are doing great man.. lol you have made the best comments in this thread absolutely IMO
[/quote]

well, either him or nismo driver


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Jewelz said:


> Jesus quoted extensively from the Old Testament and took It literally. If the Old Testament is good enough for Jesus, It's good enough for me.


just want to encourage you to keep going, you are doing great man.. lol you have made the best comments in this thread absolutely IMO
[/quote]

well, either him or nismo driver








[/quote]


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2005)

Literature and proof is only needed with there is no faith in an idea
--Dan Robbins


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Literatue and proof is only needed with there is no faith in an idea
> --Dan Robbins


Damn, that Dan Robbins guy needs to learn how to spell - what the hell is literatue ?


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2005)

Jewelz said:


> Literatue and proof is only needed with there is no faith in an idea
> --Dan Robbins


Damn, that Dan Robbins guy needs to learn how to spell - what the hell is literatue ?
[/quote]

Ya what a frickin Republican







I hate that guy!


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Jewelz said:


> Jesus quoted extensively from the Old Testament and took It literally. If the Old Testament is good enough for Jesus, It's good enough for me.


just want to encourage you to keep going, you are doing great man.. lol you have made the best comments in this thread absolutely IMO
[/quote]

well, either him or nismo driver








[/quote]
My quotes (comments) are straight from the Bible and you can look it up for yourself. My eternity depends not only on faith, but also the facts about the Bible. It has been proven historically, scientifically and archaeologically. I encourage anyone to point out any errors of the Bible and bring it to my attention and I'll do my best to explain it. As far as numeric errors are concern, I know there're some by translators, which is not signiciant.

You members have to make up your mind whether to listen to the reasoning of a man or the Bible.

If man is correct, then nothing is going to happen after death. But if the Bible is correct, then you'll have eternity to deal with.


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Jesus quoted extensively from the Old Testament and took It literally. If the Old Testament is good enough for Jesus, It's good enough for me.


just want to encourage you to keep going, you are doing great man.. lol you have made the best comments in this thread absolutely IMO
[/quote]

well, either him or nismo driver








[/quote]
My quotes (comments) are straight from the Bible and you can look it up for yourself. My eternity depends not only on faith, but also the facts about the Bible. It has been proven historically, scientifically and archaeologically. I encourage anyone to point out any errors of the Bible and bring it to my attention and I'll do my best to explain it. As far as numeric errors are concern, I know there're some by translators, which is not signiciant.

You members have to make up your mind whether to listen to the reasoning of a man or the Bible.

If man is correct, then nothing is going to happen after death. But if the Bible is correct, then you'll have eternity to deal with.
[/quote]

I am a bit confused - were your comments in response to what I said ?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Jewelz said:


> [I am a bit confused - were your comments in response to what I said ?


No sir. I'm tring to let our members know that when I speak from my mind, my comments are no better than anyone's comments here. When the Bible is quoted, then I'm speaking from God's point of view and anyone can look them up in the Bible. My point is whether to listen to the reasoning of man or Bible.


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

nismo driver said:


> i love how this whole inteligent design BS is just and stupid american issue.. not only that but i wouldnt be surprised if you polled people to find out who is afraid of bird flu and who supports intelligent design you would probably find a high number of peopel that belive in intelligent design are afraid of avian flu, which happens to be a perfect example of evolution.. people are fuckin idiots in this country


Um no not really, its a mutation, its still a virus, according to evolution a life form can evolve into a compleate new being, fish->reptile->Dinosaur->Bird or ape->human, wich i dont beleive is possible to be honest. the flu is still a flu, a mutation but a flu.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Markosaur said:


> Um no not really, its a mutation, its still a virus, according to evolution a life form can evolve into a compleate new being, fish->reptile->Dinosaur->Bird or ape->human, wich i dont beleive is possible to be honest. the flu is still a flu, a mutation but a flu.


Exactly. You've to look at the crediblity of the source.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

and what is a mutated fish like say a snake head could eventaully become or may be a stage of becomign a reptile? mutation/evolution


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Mutation from Webster=Change, alteration. Genetic change which, when transmitted to offspring, gives rise to heritable variation.

Heritable variation. Not transforming from one specie to another, ie. fish to monkey to man.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Mutation from Webster=Change, alteration. Genetic change which, when transmitted to offspring, gives rise to heritable variation.
> 
> Heritable variation. Not transforming from one specie to another, ie. fish to monkey to man.


so explain how snake heads can survive on land likesay a salamander? is that not a perfect example of evolution, a fish that has evolved to be able to survive on land..


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> Jesus quoted extensively from the Old Testament and took It literally. If the Old Testament is good enough for Jesus, It's good enough for me.


just want to encourage you to keep going, you are doing great man.. lol you have made the best comments in this thread absolutely IMO
[/quote]

well, either him or nismo driver








[/quote]
My quotes (comments) are straight from the Bible and you can look it up for yourself. My eternity depends not only on faith, but also the facts about the Bible. It has been proven historically, scientifically and archaeologically. I encourage anyone to point out any errors of the Bible and bring it to my attention and I'll do my best to explain it. As far as numeric errors are concern, I know there're some by translators, which is not signiciant.

You members have to make up your mind whether to listen to the reasoning of a man or the Bible.

If man is correct, then nothing is going to happen after death. But if the Bible is correct, then you'll have eternity to deal with.
[/quote]

















I believe Jesus existed, and I believe he was a great man. But I also believe the Bible to be fiction created to inspire us and teach us lessons about life. The church has turned what was a great idea into a powerful weapon against freedom.

It isnt a question of whether you believe in God or in Man, its whether you have faith in something bigger than what we live everyday.


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## Xaztur (Sep 19, 2005)

Ok, so if "God" or the "Creator" really does exist, where did he, it, or whatever come from? "He just is and always has been" is not a correct answer.

What if a group of guys were eating lunch and had only water to wash it down, along comes Jesus with his jug of wine and shares with the boys, that is turning water into wine is it not?
What if Jesus comes across the boys later on, they got nothing to eat but Jesus has a loaf of bread so he tears of chunks of bread for everyone.

Unless you can travel back in time, there is no "real" proof miracles happened. A book written over 2000 years is not much to go on, tell a story to 1 friend continue passing on the story. After the 20th person heard the story have them come to tell it to you and see what's changed....same thing with the bible, you can bank on it.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

i can turn water into wine..

im going to need grapes and yeast though and it will take a few months but it works..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

I don't know where God came from, and I have to admit I don't know alot. If I know eveything, including where God came from, I'd be God myself. There might not be proof of miracles, but the Bible is proven historically, scientifically and archeologically.

Survival of a snakehead like a salamander is not is a snakehead is turned into a salamander. That's evolution.


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2005)

Markosaur said:


> I don't know where God came from, and I have to admit I don't know alot. If I know eveything, including where God came from, I'd be God myself. There might not be proof of miracles, but the Bible is proven historically, scientifically and archeologically.
> 
> Survival of a snakehead like a salamander is not is a snakehead is turned into a salamander. That's evolution.


See, the problem with religion is that people feel that they can only believe what is believed by the faith as a whole. In reality, as human beings and seperate spiritual individuals, our beliefs must comprise of what is really in our hearts, even if it means taking a bit of tradition form every faith.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Survival of a snakehead like a salamander is not is a snakehead is turned into a salamander. That's evolution.


i never said it turned into a salamander im asking you to explain to me how a fish being able to live on land is not proof of evolution?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

I don't follow traditons. Traditons are man made. I follow the Bible and what It says. People can con you if you don't know the Bible. I encourage you all to read It for yourself and not to isten to me or anyone else. Make your own decision!

The statistic of death is pretty impressive, 100%. One one knows when he/she is going to die. I want to be ready and don't want to take a gamble with my eternity.



nismo driver said:


> Survival of a snakehead like a salamander is not is a snakehead is turned into a salamander. That's evolution.


i never said it turned into a salamander im asking you to explain to me how a fish being able to live on land is not proof of evolution?
[/quote]
A fish can't live on land indefinately like humans can't live in water indefinately. It's matter of survival for a moment, only for a short span.


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> I don't follow traditons. Traditons are man made. I follow the Bible and what It says. People can con you if you don't know the Bible. I encourage you all to read It for yourself and not to isten to me or anyone else. Make your own decision!
> 
> The statistic of death is pretty impressive, 100%. One one knows when he/she is going to die. I want to be ready and don't want to take a gamble with my eternity.


DING DING DING!

Christianity at its best....

So you have faith because you are fearful?

The one phrase that ruined religion:

"All God-fearing Christians...etc..etc"


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Survival of a snakehead like a salamander is not is a snakehead is turned into a salamander. That's evolution.


i never said it turned into a salamander im asking you to explain to me how a fish being able to live on land is not proof of evolution?
[/quote]
A fish can't live on land indefinately like humans can't live in water indefinately. It's matter of survival for a moment, only for a short span.
[/quote]

not just live out of water for a short spam (much longer then most fish) but has also devloped the use of its fins like legs to seek another body of water.. it has evolved, can a bass do that? no..

whats so difficult about saying yes this is an example of a fish that has evolved?

"I don't follow traditons. Traditons are man made. I follow the Bible and what It says"

WTF is this supposed to mean? who exactly created teh bible tehn or did it evolve? and WTF do you think going to church on sunday is? its a tradition you stupid hypocrit.. aarrghh i hate religouse nuts more and more every day..

go play in traffic and see how much god cares about you


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> [
> So you have faith because you are fearful?
> 
> The one phrase that ruined religion:
> ...


Not being fearful. It's simply planning for my eternity like you'd with planning for your life on earth. I did not earn Heaven, Jesus paid for it all. John 3:16

I have to admit that I do have fear, but the fear is not pleasing God and doing what's right. Like a child that wants to please his dad. It's a godly fear.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> [
> So you have faith because you are fearful?
> 
> The one phrase that ruined religion:
> ...


Not being fearful. It's simply planning for my eternity like you'd with planning for your life on earth. I did not earn Heaven, Jesus paid for it all. John 3:16

I have to admit that I do have fear, but the fear is not pleasing God and doing what's right. Like a child that wants to please his dad. It's a godly fear.
[/quote]

i have fear.. im afraid of people that let religon rule there existance..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> whats so difficult about saying yes this is an example of a fish that has evolved?
> 
> "I don't follow traditons. Traditons are man made. I follow the Bible and what It says"
> 
> ...


A fish that can walk on land for a short period of time is still a fish. That fish did not evolve to another specie.

I go to church, and that's not tradition. It's in the Bible..Heb:10:25: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

How do you learn if you don't go to school? Church is school for the Bible. Traditon of man is something that's not in the Bible, man made.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

DDEEEERRRRRR its not tradition its instruction incoded in teh book created by our leader that we must follow and fear...










i have to leave this thread now before i get any stupider from fillingmy head with this idiots posts..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

The choice is yours my friend. If you're right, nothing is going to happen after death, but if I'm right, you're in trouble.


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> The choice is yours my friend. If you're right, nothing is going to happen after death, but if I'm right, you're in trouble.


Im sorry, but thats pathetic. You believe you're going somewhere better because you beleive in what the bible says...I say you will be have to learn the lessons of an open mind in the afterlife, whether its in a next life, hell, heaven....


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

i think a little more respect should be shown. rchan hasn't done or said anything to be offensive in any way. he's simply defending his point and the name calling should be kicked out the door.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> The choice is yours my friend. If you're right, nothing is going to happen after death, but if I'm right, you're in trouble.


Im sorry, but thats pathetic. You believe you're going somewhere better because you beleive in what the bible says...I say you will be have to learn the lessons of an open mind in the afterlife, whether its in a next life, hell, heaven....
[/quote]
How did you think I came to that conclusion? I learn and study ALL religions and came to the conclusion that the Bible is true.


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2005)

hyphen said:


> i think a little more respect should be shown. rchan hasn't done or said anything to be offensive in any way. he's simply defending his point and the name calling should be kicked out the door.


What name calling?


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> The choice is yours my friend. If you're right, nothing is going to happen after death, but if I'm right, you're in trouble.


but the difference is i dont live in fear of death.. i dont think anythign does happen after death, your heart spots shorly after your brain shuts down because of lack of oxygen to the brain and thats it lights out.. no heaven, no hell, no 72 virgins, no spacecraft with a dress code..


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## mrspikes (Aug 10, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> nice the chatolics make teh christians look lieka bunch of religous nuts for taking the bible too literally..


Actually I consider a lot of the religons that are 'Christan' to be quite different. I'm pretty sure everyone who is Christan does and even those who are not. Things done by the Catholics (which includes me by the way) do not make other religions look bad. That is some infaluble thought you made up because you obviously have something against us. Sure we all have different views about other religions but you're kind of immature.



> but the difference is i dont live in fear of death.. i dont think anythign does happen after death, your heart spots shorly after your brain shuts down because of lack of oxygen to the brain and thats it lights out.. no heaven, no hell, no 72 virgins, no spacecraft with a dress code..


just because we believe in life after death doesn't mean we fear it. Actually it would give us more reason to embrace it since we get something more. You believe there's is nothing so you should then fear death because that is the end of your existence.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> hyphen Posted Today, 12:19 PM
> i think a little more respect should be shown. rchan hasn't done or said anything to be offensive in any way. he's simply defending his point and the name calling should be kicked out the door.










Thanks for the laugh, I wondered how long it would take you to come up with that.









BTW good topic guys. Interesting views. The after life is what it is....opinion. The bible was written by great men who have faith in their God. Trouble is, so many humans have a version of what God is and what God demands. I suspect if there was a God, this Being would not be too happy with how his message is being twisted to satisfy a personal need to control others through supposed miracles and individual interpretation on what God's word is.

Later~


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

hastatus said:


> BTW good topic guys. Interesting views. The after life is what it is....opinion. The bible was written by great men who have faith in their God. Trouble is, so many humans have a version of what God is and what God demands. I suspect if there was a God, this Being would not be too happy with how his message is being twisted to satisfy a personal need to control others through supposed miracles and individual interpretation on what God's word is.
> 
> Later~


That's why I quote from the Bible and encourage you all to read the Bible for yourself.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> BTW good topic guys. Interesting views. The after life is what it is....opinion. The bible was written by great men who have faith in their God. Trouble is, so many humans have a version of what God is and what God demands. I suspect if there was a God, this Being would not be too happy with how his message is being twisted to satisfy a personal need to control others through supposed miracles and individual interpretation on what God's word is.
> 
> Later~


That's why I quote from the Bible and encourage you all to read the Bible for yourself.
[/quote]

how many times have you gone in to read the quran?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

hyphen said:


> how many times have you gone in to read the quran?


I've a copy with me. I read it and researched it.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> rchan11 Posted Today, 12:37 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Nov 9 2005, 08:33 PM)
> 
> BTW good topic guys. Interesting views. The after life is what it is....opinion. The bible was written by great men who have faith in their God. Trouble is, so many humans have a version of what God is and what God demands. I suspect if there was a God, this Being would not be too happy with how his message is being twisted to satisfy a personal need to control others through supposed miracles and individual interpretation on what God's word is.
> ...


As earlier stated by Hyphen......which version? King James? The Koran? The Tora? All have ideas on what humans should be doing. All have rules/laws and some require death if you don't follow them. Goes back to what I just stated above. Some humans find ways to control the masses. History is littered with it from the Crusades, to Jones Town among a few.


----------



## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

hyphen said:


> The choice is yours my friend. If you're right, nothing is going to happen after death, but if I'm right, you're in trouble.


Im sorry, but thats pathetic. You believe you're going somewhere better because you beleive in what the bible says...I say you will be have to learn the lessons of an open mind in the afterlife, whether its in a next life, hell, heaven....
[/quote]
How did you think I came to that conclusion? I learn and study ALL religions and came to the conclusion that the Bible is true.
[/quote]

i read all the lord fo the rigns books and concluded that middle earth really exists..

thats basically what it sounds like when someone tells me the bible is "true"


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

hastatus said:


> [As earlier stated by Hyphen......which version? King James? The Koran? The Tora? All have ideas on what humans should be doing. All have rules/laws and some require death if you don't follow them. Goes back to what I just stated above. Some humans find ways to control the masses. History is littered with it from the Crusades, to Jones Town among a few.


If you read my posts in this thread, it's from the King James Version. You're correct, humans do find ways to control the masses. That's why I encourage people to read the Bible for themselves so they'll know what's preaching from the pulpit is true or false.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> BTW good topic guys. Interesting views. The after life is what it is....opinion. The bible was written by great men who have faith in their God. Trouble is, so many humans have a version of what God is and what God demands. I suspect if there was a God, this Being would not be too happy with how his message is being twisted to satisfy a personal need to control others through supposed miracles and individual interpretation on what God's word is.
> 
> Later~


That's why I quote from the Bible and encourage you all to read the Bible for yourself.
[/quote]

go knock on someone elses door with your stupid flyers..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> i read all the lord fo the rigns books and concluded that middle earth really exists..
> 
> thats basically what it sounds like when someone tells me the bible is "true"


Can Lord of the Rings stand historical, scientific and archaeological test?


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> rchan11 Posted Today, 12:47 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Nov 9 2005, 08:42 PM)
> 
> [As earlier stated by Hyphen......which version? King James? The Koran? The Tora? All have ideas on what humans should be doing. All have rules/laws and some require death if you don't follow them. Goes back to what I just stated above. Some humans find ways to control the masses. History is littered with it from the Crusades, to Jones Town among a few.
> ...


Again, that is strictly your interpretation that the King James Version is "factual" based on your readings. It doesn't address the other "Bibles" I listed. So you are stating that the King James is the only version that is based on "truth"? and the rest are "false"? My opinion is your belief in one good book is why there is so much killings in the world today because other's believe their version of the good book is true. So its a quagmire of personal beliefs and opinions and no real facts that can be substantiated other than human interpretation which is subject to falsehoods when it is held up to the light.


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## mrspikes (Aug 10, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> who said hes not gettign respect i just dont agree with his belifes and it bothers me that i have t interact with people like him, not him in particular but others that share his belifes. people that drive cars ect. that could potentialy effect my life because they are so preoccupied with there belife..


Actually it's you who is caught up in their beliefe because you won't even listen to the other side.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> i read all the lord fo the rigns books and concluded that middle earth really exists..
> 
> thats basically what it sounds like when someone tells me the bible is "true"


Can Lord of the Rings stand historical, scientific and archaeological test?
[/quote]

doesnt matter its what can be proved its what i belive in, i learned that arguement from you..

i can prove the existance of the lord of the rings, there are movies and action figures and the writer is still alive. can you interview the writer of the bible?

L. Ron Hubbard created scientology i can prvoe the existance of his religon just interview him..


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> i love how this whole inteligent design BS is just and stupid american issue.. not only that but i wouldnt be surprised if you polled people to find out who is afraid of bird flu and who supports intelligent design you would probably find a high number of peopel that belive in intelligent design are afraid of avian flu, which happens to be a perfect example of evolution.. people are fuckin idiots in this country


Um no not really, its a mutation, its still a virus, according to evolution a life form can evolve into a compleate new being, fish->reptile->Dinosaur->Bird or ape->human, wich i dont beleive is possible to be honest. the flu is still a flu, a mutation but a flu.
[/quote]

BTW, flu isnt just flu. It is comprised of microscopic bacteria, which in turn are contruscted of structured matter.

When the flu evoles into the airborne version, new bacteria and new structured matter is added to the original form. Thus, it is an evolution.
[/quote]

Dude, did you fail biology or something?

1.) all bacteria are microscopic








2.) a virus is smaller than a bacteria
3.) the evolution theory is based on genetics, not on matter
4.) its still a virus, it has mutated/changed but its still a virus, its not a mouse or a worm its a virus.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

mrspikes said:


> who said hes not gettign respect i just dont agree with his belifes and it bothers me that i have t interact with people like him, not him in particular but others that share his belifes. people that drive cars ect. that could potentialy effect my life because they are so preoccupied with there belife..


Actually it's you who is caught up in their beliefe because you won't even listen to the other side.
[/quote]

im not caught in his belife its the exent that his belife effects his life that im caught up in, if he believed in dr. seuse books as much as he belive int eh religon he would be in a loony bin.. unfortunately organized religon is accepted so these crazy people are allowed to coexist with those of us that arent brain washed by this crap.. david coresh had belifes but thats a cult and a threat to the rest of us so he was elliminated, personally i feel all religions are cults just some are more accepted tehn others..


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Markosaur Posted Today, 01:19 PM
> QUOTE(DannyBoy17 @ Nov 9 2005, 08:50 PM)
> 
> QUOTE(Markosaur @ Nov 9 2005, 02:20 PM)
> ...


It takes an electron microscope to see it (the virus). Think of it as a parasite living inside bacteria.


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## we have sound (Apr 27, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> I don't know where God came from, and I have to admit I don't know alot. If I know eveything, including where God came from, I'd be God myself. There might not be proof of miracles, but the Bible is proven historically, scientifically and archeologically.
> 
> Survival of a snakehead like a salamander is not is a snakehead is turned into a salamander. That's evolution.


Can you give some sources to backup your claims that the bible is _proven_? Historically, scientifically, and archeologically?

Because the way i see it, if the bible was actually "proven", then it would become fact, and if something is a true fact, then it is unarguable against. It just is. And yeah, that might be what you beleive, but people still argue against it. if it was "proven", as you say, with proofs and evidence that is totally blatant and cannot be misinterpretted as opinion, which surely is the definition of a proof, don;t you think _everyone_ would beleive it to be the full truth?


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

ok the bible does mention actual places and amybe even objects liek the ark. i know a crazy guy that thought god told him to build a bird house for cats, is that worth of being in a new version of the bible? can you even prove that i know this person or that god gave him plans for the catbird house?

anyone can write fictional story using actual places and things.. i can prove that certain things in a steven king novel exist sceintifically, and historically but its still jsut a story written by a man with things that cannot be proven, like spirits from a pet cemetary killing peopel or cars that become possesed..


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2005)

Markosaur said:


> i love how this whole inteligent design BS is just and stupid american issue.. not only that but i wouldnt be surprised if you polled people to find out who is afraid of bird flu and who supports intelligent design you would probably find a high number of peopel that belive in intelligent design are afraid of avian flu, which happens to be a perfect example of evolution.. people are fuckin idiots in this country


Um no not really, its a mutation, its still a virus, according to evolution a life form can evolve into a compleate new being, fish->reptile->Dinosaur->Bird or ape->human, wich i dont beleive is possible to be honest. the flu is still a flu, a mutation but a flu.
[/quote]

BTW, flu isnt just flu. It is comprised of microscopic bacteria, which in turn are contruscted of structured matter.

When the flu evoles into the airborne version, new bacteria and new structured matter is added to the original form. Thus, it is an evolution.
[/quote]

Dude, did you fail biology or something?

1.) all bacteria are microscopic :laugh: 
2.) a virus is smaller than a bacteria
3.) the evolution theory is based on genetics, not on matter
4.) its still a virus, it has mutated/changed but its still a virus, its not a mouse or a worm its a virus.
[/quote]

1. Isnt that what I said? 
2. The virus effect the bacteria
3. How can it not be based on matter when everything is made of matter. Does Jewelz have a small penis? Yes. Thats a theory based on length, but the "thing" in question is made of matter. All I was saying was that the core of the material involved is changed.
4. I would say it has adapted to find new hosts. Therefor I think it evolved. The scientist on the news dont say "If it evolves into an airborne virus..." for nothing!


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

ah yes but its still a virus, just as a bird is a bird and not a fish.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

Markosaur said:


> ah yes but its still a virus, just as a bird is a bird and not a fish.


the WTF is a playtipus? i think its a genetic by product of evolution


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

A platypus is a mammal with specialized reproduction. Not the same thing as a virus which does not respire, nor do they display irritability. They also do not move or grow. But they do reproduce and can adapt to new hosts. Which is why I stated they are more parasite than anything else.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

hastatus said:


> A platypus is a mammal with specialized reproduction. Not the same thing as a virus which does not respire, nor do they display irritability. They also do not move or grow. But they do reproduce and can adapt to new hosts. Which is why I stated they are more parasite than anything else.


my comment was more in reply to his bird is a bird not a fish comment, platapus is like a bird fish beaver all in one..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

we have sound said:


> Can you give some sources to backup your claims that the bible is _proven_? Historically, scientifically, and archeologically?
> 
> Because the way i see it, if the bible was actually "proven", then it would become fact, and if something is a true fact, then it is unarguable against. It just is. And yeah, that might be what you beleive, but people still argue against it. if it was "proven", as you say, with proofs and evidence that is totally blatant and cannot be misinterpretted as opinion, which surely is the definition of a proof, don;t you think _everyone_ would beleive it to be the full truth?


Historically and archeologically is easy, just look at the map of the middle east and see all the ancient cities are mentioned in the Bible. Jerusalm was mentioned in the Bible over 6000 years ago. Just couple of days ago that scientist in Israel have found reminents of an anchient church inside a prison yard which have writings describing Jesus, etc. etc.

Scientifically

Over 6000 years ago the Bible says in

Job 26:7
"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing."

Isaiah 40:22
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"

Circle as in round.

Zechariah 12:1
"The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him."

As you can see there is abundant scripture referring to this "spreading out" of the heavens. The Bible is VERY consistent with this description. The key word in Hebrew here is "raquia". Young's concordance defines "raquia" as "expanse" and "raqa" as "spread out or over". The Bible could have just said only "created the heavens" would this not be adequate? Why the need for "stretch out"? He didn't "stretch out" man. Granted it could simply be a reference to its expanse. But at it's best it's a confirmation of our expanding universe, and at its worst it cannot be used to argue against it!

If I have to quote EVERYTHING from the Bible, I'll be here all day.

As for Frank, I have studied nearly all major religions and come to the determination of Bible is the truth.

Here's what Quran says about the earth

Quran 15: 19 And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon Mountains firm and immovable;

A carpet which is flat and not round. And I can list many other errors in the Quran.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> nismo driver Posted Today, 02:28 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Nov 9 2005, 05:25 PM)
> 
> A platypus is a mammal with specialized reproduction. Not the same thing as a virus which does not respire, nor do they display irritability. They also do not move or grow. But they do reproduce and can adapt to new hosts. Which is why I stated they are more parasite than anything else.
> ...


Understand. I see the bird (duckbill) in what you state and of course its ability to lay "eggs".


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## we have sound (Apr 27, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> Historically and archeologically is easy, just look at the map of the middle east and see all the ancient cities are mentioned in the Bible. Jerusalm was mentioned in the Bible over 6000 years ago. Just couple of days ago that scientist in Israel have found reminents of an anchient church inside a prison yard which have writings describing Jesus, etc. etc.
> 
> Scientifically
> 
> ...


I see no proof, I see but coincidences, or observations. To me atheistic scientific and philosophic theory is far stronger "proof" - but that god exists only as a concept, not as a being.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

we have sound said:


> I see no proof, I see but coincidences, or observations. To me atheistic scientific and philosophic theory is far stronger "proof" - but that god exists only as a concept, not as a being.


I see alot of coincidences that's for sure.


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## we have sound (Apr 27, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> I see alot of coincidences that's for sure.


Then at least we agree on one thing


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

we have sound said:


> I see alot of coincidences that's for sure.


Then at least we agree on one thing








[/quote]


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> I see no proof, I see but coincidences, or observations. To me atheistic scientific and philosophic theory is far stronger "proof" - but that god exists only as a concept, not as a being.


I see alot of coincidences that's for sure.
[/quote]

yes coincidences and as i stateed in an earlier post anyone can write a story and include actual places, that doesnt meant eh things that happened were true.. maybe jesus was a magician that knew tricks with slight of hand of visual tricks.. mayeb he wasnt realy walking on water maybe it was a sand bar.. maybe he didnt turn water to wine the rest of tehm where so drunk it was jsut a joke and some douch missed itand thought he actually did turn it to wine.. i could think of a million things like this..

you have no doubt in what you read, you belive it as fact.. i question almost everything i read..


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## Mettle (Dec 29, 2003)

Pen & Teller have an excellent show called _Bullshit_ and in one of their episodes they take on the Bible. You should really give it a watch... The episode in question is in season 2.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> [I am a bit confused - were your comments in response to what I said ?


No sir. I'm tring to let our members know that when I speak from my mind, my comments are no better than anyone's comments here. When the Bible is quoted, then I'm speaking from God's point of view and anyone can look them up in the Bible. My point is whether to listen to the reasoning of man or Bible.
[/quote]
Your use of the Bible over human logic is what I was cheering.. I'm your spiritual brother


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Your use of the Bible over human logic is what I was cheering.. I'm your spiritual brother


Amen


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

i dont see why you would admire the use of a book over your own thought process. that's called feeble mindedness. even the most devout christians should use their own brains and not allow something or someone else think for them. investigate and find out for yourself, don't just follow blindly because someone or something said so.

rchan has a great amount of faith and i can tell that he's a good person, which i respect greatly. especially so since he's been able to take verbal (written) abuse in this thread without lashing back. but i never condone being a sheep.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Thank you for your kind words Hyphen. As a Christian, I've to live like one. I've done a great deal of investigation and research to come to the conclusion that Christianity according to the Bible is the truth. I've a small library at home with dozens of writings from nearly all major religions and have studied it all. My eternity depends on the correction decision that I make and I will not gamble on that.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

hastatus said:


> > rchan11 Posted Today, 12:37 PM
> > QUOTE(hastatus @ Nov 9 2005, 08:33 PM)
> >
> > BTW good topic guys. Interesting views. The after life is what it is....opinion. The bible was written by great men who have faith in their God. Trouble is, so many humans have a version of what God is and what God demands. I suspect if there was a God, this Being would not be too happy with how his message is being twisted to satisfy a personal need to control others through supposed miracles and individual interpretation on what God's word is.
> ...


bro, with all kindness, check out the New Testament. There is no reason for 'death' for not following anything in it. I don't want to get into a spiritual debate here, it is almost impossible on this public thread. So many will bash Christianity, the _imperfect_ people who serve him, and throw the whole conversation off base, and never open their hearts to what is being said.. 
I just want to tell you that the New Testament you will find the 4 Gospels. Gospel means good news. It really is good news! It is no license to sin, but the 'good news' is the fact that _if_ you let the Lord Jesus Christ in your heart, the one and only perfect, holy God does not see you as a sinner, but as perfect as His Son! He changes what is in your heart, you can do nothing to change it yourself, except trust His Son, Jesus.
When we 'sin' or 'fall' after accepting Jesus, He deals with us in His loving, graceful way. We need not do anything rash to each other.
I think you are thinking of Old Testament law. The Covenant changed. We are now under grace. I would go on, but I'm thinking I may have said too much already LOL


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

hastatus said:


> > rchan11 Posted Today, 12:47 PM
> > QUOTE(hastatus @ Nov 9 2005, 08:42 PM)
> >
> > [As earlier stated by Hyphen......which version? King James? The Koran? The Tora? All have ideas on what humans should be doing. All have rules/laws and some require death if you don't follow them. Goes back to what I just stated above. Some humans find ways to control the masses. History is littered with it from the Crusades, to Jones Town among a few.
> ...


I believe that if you look at it your way, you are right. But honestly, if we Christians would quit defending what we believe and why to the point of arguing, and getting upset, then we would get to the heart, and to the spirit of what the Bible preaches. Thus representing the love of our God better. There is no reason to quarrel.

I used to try defending my faith very hardcore, (even recently) because I wanted everyone to understand what had happened to me!! But I came to the point that defending my view only got me into arguments and caused strife and ill feelings. I hope those days are over forever.

Now, all I have to say is Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. He bled and died at the hand of ungodly men for me to be accepted into his awesome kingdom. He changed my life for the good, and He continues to work in my heart every day, even as I make AWFUL mistakes.

If you don't like it... don't want to hear what I have to say, fine!!







I did all I can do to witness the most high God's plan of salvation to the world! See, deep in my fallen heart, I don't care at all if anyone finds peace and salvation with God. The only reason any Christian witnesses Christ at all is the Spirit of the Living God within, and I want to get to know what is on the heart of my Lord better. unfortunatly, we Christians are still regular old human beings, fallen in every way.

The 'good news' of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is... I will never make it to God's heaven on my own merit. I will make it to God's heaven on Jesus Christ's merit alone. Thank you Lord









Blessings to all who are searching for the truth of God!


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Blessings to all who are searching for the truth of God!


even if those people searching for the truth are searching through islam or judaism?


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

hyphen said:


> Blessings to all who are searching for the truth of God!


even if those people searching for the truth are searching through islam or judaism?
[/quote]

or a 1000 other religions...


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

hyphen said:


> Blessings to all who are searching for the truth of God!


even if those people searching for the truth are searching through islam or judaism?
[/quote]

Yes! Go for it! I know where I'm going, I hope you find the truth! LOL--all I can do is tell you about the Messiah, who came already! What else can I do? Can't force no one to believe!! LOL It is up to you and the Spirit of the Lord!

~as I said before--Blessings!


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Christianty is about faith. And It's the only religion that have withstood the scrutiny of history, archeology and science. It's faith but not blind faith in my humble opinion.


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Christianty is about faith. And It's the* only religion* that have withstood the scrutiny of history, archeology and science. It's faith but not blind faith in my humble opinion.


LOL. No it isn't. Judaism, for instance, is way older than Christianity. I am not even talking about Hinduism


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Christianty is about faith. And It's the only religion that have withstood the scrutiny of history, archeology and science. It's faith but not blind faith in my humble opinion.


as jewels has said, christianit is one of the younger religions that have survived. judaism, hinduism, and islam have been around for much longer than christianity has. christinity didn't even exist while jesus walked the earth while many others did. and the quran's words have been untouched since its translation. each english translation will be identical. whereas the holy bible (especially the king james version) has been morphed several times. you do know the history behind the king james version, right?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> Christianty is about faith. And It's the only religion that have withstood the scrutiny of history, archeology and science. It's faith but not blind faith in my humble opinion.


IMO, the Bible (KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, NLT) is completely ROOTED in history, and I am convinced it is a finely woven tapestry from cover to cover, written by the Holy Spirit moving in God's chosen's hearts. 
And no one else has to believe it, but I will say what I believe. No offense to anyone. And I don't have to fight for my belief. But I would die rather than denounce my faith.







I'm not going to miss this place much


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

hyphen said:


> you do know the history behind the king james version, right?


I'm very familiar with the history of the KJV. Judaism is a continuation of Christian religion. My Bible contains both Old and New Testament. Judaism uses only the Old Testament. Jesus quoted extensively from the OT. Christianity is the oldest form of religion.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

hyphen said:


> Christianty is about faith. And It's the only religion that have withstood the scrutiny of history, archeology and science. It's faith but not blind faith in my humble opinion.


as jewels has said, christianit is one of the younger religions that have survived. judaism, hinduism, and islam have been around for much longer than christianity has. christinity didn't even exist while jesus walked the earth while many others did. and the quran's words have been untouched since its translation. each english translation will be identical. whereas the holy bible (especially the king james version) has been morphed several times. you do know the history behind the king james version, right?
[/quote]

dont wanna talk about anything except that-- isn't the islamic (muslim) faith newer than Christianity? I thought it was about 350 yrs newer..? Don't matter to me, but I've read that... not that it matters


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> you do know the history behind the king james version, right?


 Judaism is a continuation of Christian religion. 
[/quote]

Actually it's precisely the other way around


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Christianity have done more good for this world than any other religion. Christian=Christ like.
The modern day hospital system was formed by Christians. Salvation Army, Red Cross, Tx Baptist Men's rescue network have helped people all over the globe. The greatest nations in the world have Christian beginings.

I don't have a clue why people are so anti-Christian. You hate and despise us, but we don't hate you. If you need help, I'll be the 1st one there.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Jewelz said:


> you do know the history behind the king james version, right?


 Judaism is a continuation of Christian religion. 
[/quote]

Actually it's precisely the other way around
[/quote]
ya, Christianity is Judaism with the Messiah already come. but seems like nit picking lol


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Jewelz said:


> you do know the history behind the king james version, right?


 Judaism is a continuation of Christian religion. 
[/quote]

Actually it's precisely the other way around
[/quote]
As in Judiasm is a continuation of Christianity? Hmmmm!!


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> you do know the history behind the king james version, right?


 Judaism is a continuation of Christian religion. 
[/quote]

Actually it's precisely the other way around
[/quote]
As in Judiasm is a continuation of Christianity? Hmmmm!!
[/quote]

No... the other way around means Christianity was a continuation of Judaism. It's just a simple timeline thing - Old Testament was written before New Testament


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Jewelz said:


> No... the other way around means Christianity was a continuation of Judaism. It's just a simple timeline thing - Old Testament was written before New Testament


You're absolutely correct, that's what I meant to say. Christianity is continuation of Judaism. Thank you!


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> Christianity have done more good for this world than any other religion. Christian=Christ like.
> The modern day hospital system was formed by Christians. Salvation Army, Red Cross, Tx Baptist Men's rescue network have helped people all over the globe. The greatest nations in the world have Christian beginings.
> 
> I don't have a clue why people are so anti-Christian. You hate and despise us, but we don't hate you. If you need help, I'll be the 1st one there.


Bro, it is in the scriptures, you know that. To be hated for your faith is your blessing, don't worry about it. The apostles and early desciples were slaughtered with Christ in their hearts.. They are fine and they knew it. So should we know we are fine as hated people.
Paul wrote 2 Timothy on death row, waiting to get his head lopped off, and the epistle was about...joy


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Bro, it is in the scriptures, you know that. To be hated for your faith is your blessing, don't worry about it. The apostles and early desciples were slaughtered with Christ in their hearts.. They are fine and they knew it. So should we know we are fine as hated people.
> Paul wrote 2 Timothy on death row, waiting to get his head lopped off, and the epistle was about...joy


I know, just don't want to point fingers and have the people think of a valid reason why they hate Christians.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> Bro, it is in the scriptures, you know that. To be hated for your faith is your blessing, don't worry about it. The apostles and early desciples were slaughtered with Christ in their hearts.. They are fine and they knew it. So should we know we are fine as hated people.
> Paul wrote 2 Timothy on death row, waiting to get his head lopped off, and the epistle was about...joy


I know, just don't want to point fingers and have the people think of a valid reason why they hate Christians.
[/quote]

i c ..but people have tons of reasons to hate 'Christians' we are just people who love Christ, and to be honest, not all of us are actually submitted to the Lord. more like 15-20% of us are truly committed.
So the rest of 'em give Christianity a bad name. I have before I know that. In my fallen state, I have been quite an unlikeable person at selected times.. 
Plus even committed Christians have their moments. We will not be perfect until the Lord makes us that way as He promised. Until then.. I will rejoice that my salvation isn't based on my holiness. But I hope to be more obedient as I grow.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> i c ..but people have tons of reasons to hate 'Christians' we are just people who love Christ, and to be honest, not all of us are actually submitted to the Lord. more like 15-20% of us are truly committed.
> So the rest of 'em give Christianity a bad name. I have before I know that. In my fallen state, I have been quite an unlikeable person at selected times..
> Plus even committed Christians have their moments. We will not be perfect until the Lord makes us that way as He promised. Until then.. I will rejoice that my salvation isn't based on my holiness. But I hope to be more obedient as I grow.


That's why I pointed out Christian=Christ like. Many have come in the name of Christian and done things repulsive to Him Mt:7:16: Ye shall know them by their fruits.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Christianity have done more good for this world than any other religion. Christian=Christ like.
> The modern day hospital system was formed by Christians. Salvation Army, Red Cross, Tx Baptist Men's rescue network have helped people all over the globe. The greatest nations in the world have Christian beginings.
> 
> I don't have a clue why people are so anti-Christian. You hate and despise us, but we don't hate you. If you need help, I'll be the 1st one there.


that's your opinion. you've negleced to mention the crusades, the inquisition, the corruptness of the vatican, the witch trials and other injustices caused by the christian faith, whether it be protestant or catholic. not to mention the butchery between the catholics and martin luther's sect when he decided to branch off.

every religion has brought something good and something bad to this world but its christians that boast the most.

and no, judaism is NOT a continuation of christianity, nor is islam. both have been around for much longer than christianity. if you had read your library of books, you'd know that it was the jews that persecuted christ while christ himself was a jew (when christianity did not exist).

christians always boast about theirs being the only way. all of the middle eastern faiths preach the same word with minor differences...one major difference being that christians say its our way or none at all. yet jews and muslims believe that good-doers that are not of their faith can reach heaven after punishment.

and from my experience, the christians of this world are the least tolerant of others. looking down on other faiths or people because of their beliefs. i have friends of all different religions and the christian parents are far worse than any muslim, jew or buddhist family that i've ever met. tell me how them discriminating against me because of my style of dress and my looks is bringing good upon the world.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Hyphen my friend, you've a valid point. Those things you've mentioned, would Jesus do it? Those people are not Christ like and you can check the Bible to see what Jesus would've done. The people beat Him and nailed Him to the cross to die. His last words were "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".

You have to remember Christ like and not people claim to be Christians and do the opposite.

Mt:7:16: Ye shall know them by their fruits.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Hyphen my friend, you've a valid point. Those things you've mentioned, would Jesus do it? Those people are not Christ like and you can check the Bible to see what Jesus would've done. The people beat Him and nailed Him to the cross to die. His last words were "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".
> 
> You have to remember Christ like and not people claim to be Christians and do the opposite.
> 
> Mt:7:16: Ye shall know them by their fruits.


then it's not right for you to say that christianity, as a religion, brought more good upon the world than any other. those injustices to man were done "in the name of the lord." they may not have been the ideal religious men or women, but what they did was in the name of their faith. and what they did in the name of their faith was kill.

there's no factual evidence stating that christians are the most righteous or brought upon more gifts to man than others.


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## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

I couldnt be bothered to read four pages of religious arguements so if this has been said I apologise!

I personally dont believe in any religion. I do believe in the theory of evolution however. The way I see it is that all these huge religions that have based their beliefs on what is written in the bible among other places are now realising that some of these have been proven wrong. So they are now having to agree with them, they have no other option as they can hardly argue with what is 100% fact!

So this is exactly what I expected, and I also expect them to come out in the future agreeing with more scientific fact and trying to connect that to the bible or whatever.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

hyphen said:


> there's no factual evidence stating that christians are the most righteous or brought upon more gifts to man than others.


You're correct, we are not the most righteous. I'm nowhere near perfect. If you follow people, they'll eventually fail you. I follow the One who will never fail, I look to Him. Christianity to me, is not a religion, it's a personal relationship with Christ. Can you find anything wrong with Jesus?


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## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

rchan11 said:


> Can you find anything wrong with Jesus?


other than the fact that no one really knows if he is actually real or ever existed!?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

CraigStables said:


> Can you find anything wrong with Jesus?


other than the fact that no one really knows if he is actually real or ever existed!?
[/quote]

This was in world news couple of days ago that in an Israel prison ground, they've discovered an ancient church with scriptures written in stone. All the New Testament manuscript found in the Middle East mentioned Jesus and we translated into our Bible.


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## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

rchan11 said:


> This was in world news couple of days ago that in an Israel prison ground, they've discovered an ancient church with scriptures written in stone. All the New Testament manuscript found in the Middle East mentioned Jesus and we translated into our Bible.


Yeah, just because a person was written about years ago doesnt mean he was real. I mean in 1000 years will Harry Potter be the new jesus?!


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> there's no factual evidence stating that christians are the most righteous or brought upon more gifts to man than others.


You're correct, we are not the most righteous. I'm nowhere near perfect. If you follow people, they'll eventually fail you. I follow the One who will never fail, I look to Him. Christianity to me, is not a religion, it's a personal relationship with Christ. Can you find anything wrong with Jesus?
[/quote]

i've never met jesus nor known him personally, in flesh and blood. and i commend people that aim to be good, no matter what their faith or ethnicity. it's the egocentric ideal behind the christian faith that i have issues with. if the relationship is between a person and god then you should have no issue with others or look at christianity as a higher faith than others. you should look at judaism, islam, and christianity in the same light.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

CraigStables said:


> Yeah, just because a person was written about years ago doesnt mean he was real. I mean in 1000 years will Harry Potter be the new jesus?!


You've a point. I never thought of it that way and I thought George Washington and Lincoln were actual people. Silly me!


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## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

rchan11 said:


> Yeah, just because a person was written about years ago doesnt mean he was real. I mean in 1000 years will Harry Potter be the new jesus?!


You've a point. I never thought of it that way and I thought George Washington and Lincoln were actual people. Silly me!
[/quote]

I wasnt saying it is proof he wasnt real, I was just pointing out that the only proof is things that have been written, which for all anyone knows could be about a real OR fictional character.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

CraigStables said:


> I wasnt saying it is proof he wasnt real, I was just pointing out that the only proof is things that have been written, which for all anyone knows could be about a real OR fictional character.


Until the 20th centry, every record of history was in a written form.


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## Bawb2u (May 27, 2004)

hyphen said:


> and no, judaism is NOT a continuation of christianity, nor is islam. both have been around for much longer than christianity.


I don't want to get into the esoteric points of this discussion but the fact is that islam as a religion wasn't founded until 622 AD.


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## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

rchan11 said:


> I wasnt saying it is proof he wasnt real, I was just pointing out that the only proof is things that have been written, which for all anyone knows could be about a real OR fictional character.


Until the 20th centry, every record of history was in a written form.
[/quote]

Yes, and I say the same about them...if there is no other proof than what is written then there is no way to know that it is actually true.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

CraigStables said:


> Yes, and I say the same about them...if there is no other proof than what is written then there is no way to know that it is actually true.


Point taken!


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## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

rchan11 said:


> Yes, and I say the same about them...if there is no other proof than what is written then there is no way to know that it is actually true.


Point taken!








[/quote]










But that is my main reasonings behind not following any religion...I just dont see how people can devote their whole life doing this, and not doing that, following something that has no proof of actually being real.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

Bawb2u said:


> and no, judaism is NOT a continuation of christianity, nor is islam. both have been around for much longer than christianity.


I don't want to get into the esoteric points of this discussion but the fact is that islam as a religion wasn't founded until 622 AD.
[/quote]

you're right, i got a little ahead of myself. without taking numbers into account, the quran quotes jesus numerous times which is reason enough to show that islam came after christ


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Christianty is about faith. And It's the only religion that have withstood the scrutiny of history, archeology and science. It's faith but not blind faith in my humble opinion.


IMO, the Bible (KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, NLT) is completely ROOTED in history, and I am convinced it is a finely woven tapestry from cover to cover, written by the Holy Spirit moving in God's chosen's hearts. 
And no one else has to believe it, but I will say what I believe. No offense to anyone. And I don't have to fight for my belief. But I would die rather than denounce my faith.







I'm not going to miss this place much








[/quote]

well if you convinced i guess that changes everything..

this therad makes me sick


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Ps:119:165: Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

CraigStables said:


> Christianty is about faith. And It's the only religion that have withstood the scrutiny of history, archeology and science. It's faith but not blind faith in my humble opinion.


IMO, the Bible (KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, NLT) is completely ROOTED in history, and I am convinced it is a finely woven tapestry from cover to cover, written by the Holy Spirit moving in God's chosen's hearts. 
And no one else has to believe it, but I will say what I believe. No offense to anyone. And I don't have to fight for my belief. But I would die rather than denounce my faith.







I'm not going to miss this place much








[/quote]

well if you convinced i guess that changes everything..

this therad makes me sick
[/quote]

Do I make you sick? I just love the Lord, and wish to leave you alone LOL If I make you sick, oh well, go be sick then LOL









Oh, please clean up that stinky messs when you're done.. gross LOL


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## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Yeah, just because a person was written about years ago doesnt mean he was real. I mean in 1000 years will Harry Potter be the new jesus?!


well, take a look at julious ceaser. Did he exist? Do you believe he did? If so, there is just as much written evidence that Jesus lived, so which one lived and which one didn't? How can we be totally sure plato, or socrates lived? 
written history is all we have to go on. Jesus is part of our worlds history, just like the other men I mentioned. But believe what you want, I can't make you believe anything at all. and I'm not trying [/quote]

If you had read my next post you would of found the answer to your question...

If writings are the only proof then yes, there is alot of room to debate if they were real or not...that goes for any historical figure. But you will find that there is alot more than just written evidence for the vast majority of the larger historical figures.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

CraigStables said:


> Yeah, just because a person was written about years ago doesnt mean he was real. I mean in 1000 years will Harry Potter be the new jesus?!


well, take a look at julious ceaser. Did he exist? Do you believe he did? If so, there is just as much written evidence that Jesus lived, so which one lived and which one didn't? How can we be totally sure plato, or socrates lived? 
written history is all we have to go on. Jesus is part of our worlds history, just like the other men I mentioned. But believe what you want, I can't make you believe anything at all. and I'm not trying [/quote]

If you had read my next post you would of found the answer to your question...

If writings are the only proof then yes, there is alot of room to debate if they were real or not...that goes for any historical figure. But you will find that there is alot more than just written evidence for the vast majority of the larger historical figures.
[/quote]
same goes for Jesus LOL


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> well, take a look at julious ceaser. Did he exist? Do you believe he did? If so, there is just as much written evidence that Jesus lived, so which one lived and which one didn't? How can we be totally sure plato, or socrates lived?
> written history is all we have to go on. Jesus is part of our worlds history, just like the other men I mentioned. But believe what you want, I can't make you believe anything at all. and I'm not trying to.


Well, maybe a guy named Jesus did exist in ancient Israel; however I don't believe there is any sufficient proof that he was anything beyond an ordinary human.

That becomes a debatable point - in the end you either choose to believe it, or not. I, personally, choose not to


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Christianty is about faith. And It's the only religion that have withstood the scrutiny of history, archeology and science. It's faith but not blind faith in my humble opinion.


IMO, the Bible (KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, NLT) is completely ROOTED in history, and I am convinced it is a finely woven tapestry from cover to cover, written by the Holy Spirit moving in God's chosen's hearts. 
And no one else has to believe it, but I will say what I believe. No offense to anyone. And I don't have to fight for my belief. But I would die rather than denounce my faith.







I'm not going to miss this place much








[/quote]

well if you convinced i guess that changes everything..

this therad makes me sick
[/quote]

Do I make you sick? I just love the Lord, and wish to leave you alone LOL If I make you sick, oh well, go be sick then LOL









Oh, please clean up that stinky messs when you're done.. gross LOL
[/quote]

i love the interweb spirits..


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

For the person who would "rather die for his faith". That is the same logic that is being used to blow themselves up in the Middle east. Is it wrong? Absolutely if one chooses between right and wrong. But for those that follow their "FAITH" they truly believe that GOD will provide rewards. Truth is, no one really knows if there is an after life or even a hell. But I see plenty of hell on earth.









For those that follow Jesus teachings or more importantly his message of "LOVE". More power to you. Those that follow individual church teachings by a pulpit speaker......I would certainly caution you to be careful with that. Afterall, the priest/speaker is nothing more than a man interpreting what he believes is "fact" even if he is reading it from the "bible". I might add here, yes, the bible does hold some information that is being investigated. Some of it is based on ordinary lives by ordinary people. But the translations into English or any other language other than the original is always suspect. As mistakes do occur during translation. As said earlier, tell a story one time, let it go out to the masses and by the time it gets back to you, the original message is lost in the translation.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Nismo, I was merely trying to make light of the situation, sorry if I offended you.. I hope Christians in general don't offend you.. they are just imperfect people and I for one am quite farfrom perfect and very capable of doing the wrong thing. As you respectively have pointed out.



hastatus said:


> well, take a look at julious ceaser. Did he exist? Do you believe he did? If so, there is just as much written evidence that Jesus lived, so which one lived and which one didn't? How can we be totally sure plato, or socrates lived?
> written history is all we have to go on. Jesus is part of our worlds history, just like the other men I mentioned. But believe what you want, I can't make you believe anything at all. and I'm not trying to.


Well, maybe a guy named Jesus did exist in ancient Israel; however I don't believe there is any sufficient proof that he was anything beyond an ordinary human.

That becomes a debatable point - in the end you either choose to believe it, or not. I, personally, choose not to
[/quote]
exactly my point. 
I believe that plato was a certified schitzophrenic, and julious caesar was an acient comic strip character... but that is my own opinion...


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

hastatus said:


> For the person who would "rather die for his faith". That is the same logic that is being used to blow themselves up in the Middle east. Is it wrong? Absolutely if one chooses between right and wrong. But for those that follow their "FAITH" they truly believe that GOD will provide rewards. Truth is, no one really knows if there is an after life or even a hell. But I see plenty of hell on earth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dying for one's faith means Christians rather be put to death then to denounce the name of Christ. Unlike the other faith which their intentions are to blow themsleves up and take out ask many innocent people as they can.

I don't listen and follow people blindly. I have my Bible to cross reference and also have a Greek and Hebrew Bible/dictionary to lookup the root word.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> I don't listen and follow people blindly. I have my Bible to cross reference and also have a Greek and Hebrew Bible/dictionary to lookup the root word.


you also have waayyy to much free time being wasted...


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> I don't listen and follow people blindly. I have my Bible to cross reference and also have a Greek and Hebrew Bible/dictionary to lookup the root word.


you also have waayyy to much free time being wasted...
[/quote]

It's free time well spent. People have different hobbies and I like to study religion.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> rchan11 Posted Today, 10:40 AM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Nov 11 2005, 05:37 PM)
> 
> For the person who would "rather die for his faith". That is the same logic that is being used to blow themselves up in the Middle east. Is it wrong? Absolutely if one chooses between right and wrong. But for those that follow their "FAITH" they truly believe that GOD will provide rewards. Truth is, no one really knows if there is an after life or even a hell. But I see plenty of hell on earth.
> ...


Yet you are missing my point. Each religion has their own "bible" and interpretation of it. No one can say truly what GOD really says or said. Just as today, no one has truly heard God's voice. Just the old prophet's in the book that is being cited. So it comes down to just FAITH. What you believe in. So we are back to square one........opinion.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Wow, I missed one of THESE debates?









Science based on facts, cant prove or disprove metaphysical/God/Faith

Faith based on feeling/religion, doesn't work with concrete evidence

They can both exist because they dont define each other. Just be careful because religion has been used as a tool over the centuries by powerful individuals controlling the minds of masses. This has, by neccessity, shaped the aspects of organized religions. That said, be careful of scientists that think science can explain everything!


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Eeesh, boy am I glad that my beliefs fully embrace science and leave room for spirituality...









BTW, I used to have a friend that will sit there today and say that the dinosaurs were fabrications of science, that the earth is only 10,000 years old according to a supposed literal translation of the Bible, and that the moon landing also never happened. If you don't agree with her fully, you're going to Hell in a handbasket and it's her "Christian duty" to save you. If she can't change you she then turns to exorcism to get those "evil demons" out of you. Even my devout Christian cousin that married her can't handle it and filed for divource. Oy...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> acestro Posted Today, 12:40 PM
> Wow, I missed one of THESE debates?
> 
> Science based on facts, cant prove or disprove metaphysical/God/Faith
> ...


Oh my, the start of a new thread on GLOBAL WARMING.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > acestro Posted Today, 12:40 PM
> > Wow, I missed one of THESE debates?
> >
> > Science based on facts, cant prove or disprove metaphysical/God/Faith
> ...


which brings me to my next piont that religon is something for weak people to find answers fo the unknown, why cant some people just accept that not everything can be explained? i have an easier time going through life comfortably with some questions un answered, rather then putting faith in somethign that provides nothing, how can religous people put so much belife in there god when things like 9/11 happen and innocent people die, freak accidents where peopel die, un cureable disease like aids and cancer tht kills innocent people many of which arre infact "spiritual" on top of that the number of wars started because of religion yet people still firmly belive in there pointless religon.. thats my point, religon makes stupid people feel good about there pointless life beliveing tehy must live a certain wy so tehy can not suffer after death? then when a hurrican destories everythign and kills peopel they are so brainwashed they think it was gods will to take those peoples lives.. i think its pathetic.. i dont mean this towards everyone that belies in god just the hardcare ones that devote there life to this crap and allow it make them live a cetertain way, and effect there decesiions and belive they have some kind of spiritual connect with "god"..


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> nismo driver Posted Today, 01:28 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Nov 11 2005, 03:59 PM)
> 
> QUOTE
> ...


Probably because some people blame God and forget the other spiritual being THE DEVIL who believes himself to be GOD. Anyway, human beings are the one's that can make differences or changes. Afterall, didn't God give us free will if one reads the scriptures for what its worth?


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## Bawb2u (May 27, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> It's free time well spent. People have different hobbies and I like to study religion.


Interesting, I have almost the same hobby but I went in the other direction with my opinions. I've spent years reading and cross referencing different religions and their derivations and have come out to more negative thoughts on organized religions and disbelief in most of their spiritual precepts. Funny how the human mind works, neh?


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

I consider myself to be a very spiritual person, but I don't attribute things like death, sickness, war, etc. to any God/god/goddess or the Devil (whom I do not believe in). Death is a natural part of life...there can be no life without it. Illness and natural disasters go hand in hand with death...they can be considered Nature's population control. These things may seem bad, but in fact, we need them, no matter how much we may not like it. We have to remember that the Earth is always changing, and we live on Her, not the other way around. We need Her to survive...us, we're just along for the ride.

Things like war or other human-caused pain and suffering are just that...human caused. Man is fallible...Man is capable of emotions such as greed, envy, selfishness, and intolerance. You want to blame all human hardship on the boogey man (the Devil), fine...whatever. Just realize that always placing blame on some outside force is not going to cure anything. Nothing will change until we learn to blame ourselves. However, I'm sure there will always people out there that cause strife...that's just part of human development. I've gone through stages of my life where I was greedy, selfish, and very intolerant. I've grown through that...some of us unfortunately don't.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

dracofish said:


> I consider myself to be a very spiritual person, but I don't attribute things like death, sickness, war, etc. to any God/god/goddess or the Devil (whom I do not believe in). Death is a natural part of life...there can be no life without it. Illness and natural disasters go hand in hand with death...they can be considered Nature's population control. These things may seem bad, but in fact, we need them, no matter how much we may not like it. We have to remember that the Earth is always changing, and we live on Her, not the other way around. We need Her to survive...us, we're just along for the ride.
> 
> Things like war or other human-caused pain and suffering are just that...human caused. Man is fallible...Man is capable of emotions such as greed, envy, selfishness, and intolerance. You want to blame all human hardship on the boogey man (the Devil), fine...whatever. Just realize that always placing blame on some outside force is not going to cure anything. Nothing will change until we learn to blame ourselves. However, I'm sure there will always people out there that cause strife...that's just part of human development. I've gone through stages of my life where I was greedy, selfish, and very intolerant. I've grown through that...some of us unfortunately don't.


see now i totally agree with everything you say here, t is possible to be spiritual with out being a jesus freak, unfortunately alot fo religous or spiritual peopel have a hard time find that middle ground.. they way you explain it also make sense consideringhow alot of people need to find blame foreveything anyway they can as long as something isnt there fault.. like its tobaccos companies fault for lung cancer and mcdonalds fault for beign fat ect..


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Hew boy, global warming. Considering I just got hit by one of the largest (_warm water driven_) hurricanes to hit the U.S., and considering the above normal temps of the gulf (even allowing for the regular 50 year cycle) it's hard for me to be objective there!

Global warming is, to me, a litmus test of personalities. If you have a strong opinion on it, you have a pre-disposed opinion without evidence. It is a complex question that isn't concrete either way but opinionated folks sure do like to push it to one side or the other!

Are we opening a new can of worms here?











hastatus said:


> > acestro Posted Today, 12:40 PM
> > Wow, I missed one of THESE debates?
> >
> > Science based on facts, cant prove or disprove metaphysical/God/Faith
> ...


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

hastatus said:


> Probably because some people blame God and forget the other spiritual being THE DEVIL who believes himself to be GOD. Anyway, human beings are the one's that can make differences or changes. Afterall, didn't God give us free will if one reads the scriptures for what its worth?


Fine point!


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

dracofish said:


> I consider myself to be a very spiritual person, but I don't attribute things like death, sickness, war, etc. to any God/god/goddess or the Devil (whom I do not believe in). Death is a natural part of life...there can be no life without it. Illness and natural disasters go hand in hand with death...they can be considered Nature's population control. These things may seem bad, but in fact, we need them, no matter how much we may not like it. We have to remember that the Earth is always changing, and we live on Her, not the other way around. We need Her to survive...us, we're just along for the ride.
> 
> Things like war or other human-caused pain and suffering are just that...human caused. Man is fallible...Man is capable of emotions such as greed, envy, selfishness, and intolerance. You want to blame all human hardship on the boogey man (the Devil), fine...whatever. Just realize that always placing blame on some outside force is not going to cure anything. Nothing will change until we learn to blame ourselves. However, I'm sure there will always people out there that cause strife...that's just part of human development. I've gone through stages of my life where I was greedy, selfish, and very intolerant. I've grown through that...some of us unfortunately don't.


Sorry, I just had to post again.. lol *ugh*








I understand where you are comming from, and I'm sure you have heard this before, but the Christian view on death, sickness, war, etc., comes from 'the fall of humanity' or 'sin.' 
Also, the Bible teaches that without the introduction of sin in the world, (disobediance to God) i.e. the Adam and Eve story,.. there would be no death, sickness, war, etc. -at all. 
(The Bible says Adam was over 900 years old when he died, and records many reaching 600+ years, including Noah... Bible teaches the human lifespan was growing ever shorter after Noah's flood)

If you really think about it, that is a very profound teaching, even to the natural mind. The part about no death and sickness might be hard for unbelievers to swallow, but...
Think about this: Bible Scripture in essence basically teaches you to 'love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.' -If every single person on the whole planet were actively engaged in selflessly committing their lives to loving each other, and meeting each others needs, how could there be war? It wouldn't exist. Agreed?
If we examine ourselves HONESTLY, we would find out that _absolutely no one on this earth 'in all truth' does either of those things. _ That is why it is taught in scripture. That is also why I agree with people that say 'it was written to control the masses.' --IMO, very true.. without Bible teaching, and it's influence in the world, we would live in a profoundly different place. There would be no moral boundaries keeping many, many people from doing whatever they felt was acceptable in their own eyes. Some might say it would be a better place w/o the Bible.. 
I disagree because people who truly give their lives to the Lord, keeping, and growing in their relationship with the Lord (yes, the scripture teaches that we can know God, and be friends of God) have a great positive impact on society. They are (or should be!) growing in love, peacefulness, joyfulness, humbleness, selflessness, kindness, and patience.

Draco, you are 100% correct in that 'we' are totally to blame. All true Bible believing Christians would agree with that statement in it's entirety. But to say that 'any of us' have outgrown greed, selfishness, and intolerance, _in it's entirety _I can't agree with. We can keep it to a minimum, (if we learn serious disciplines) but we can not erase it completely, period. It is woven into our very being! 
Please, lets be honest.. _to SOME DEGREE, we are all full of these things_. -lying, stealing, murdering, adultering, fornicating, causing strife, drunkardness, coveting.. etc, etc.. That is the sometimes overlooked Biblical teaching.

In my mind, there is no hope, or joy in putting my faith in the earth, and just dying when I die. To me, that is dreadful. What is the good news about that? The Bible teaches life everlasting. I am at peace, with joy in my heart that my salvation does not depend on my good vs. bad on a scale, hoping one will out-weigh the other, or just dying and turning to dust. We don't know from where we came, and we don't know where we are going. I trust Christ. I accept that I will be persecuted for my faith. Jesus told me already, so I am prepared.









And this is the Gospel...(good news) That Jesus Christ came to die on the cross, to suffer the penalty for all the world's sins, and rise again to show us the hope of SALVATION by _faith in Him._


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Draco, you are 100% correct in that 'we' are totally to blame. All true Bible believing Christians would agree with that statement in it's entirety. But to say that 'any of us' have outgrown greed, selfishness, and intolerance, _in it's entirety _I can't agree with. We can keep it to a minimum, (if we learn serious disciplines) but we can not erase it completely, period. It is woven into our very being!
> Please, lets be honest.. _to SOME DEGREE, we are all full of these things_. -lying, stealing, murdering, adultering, fornicating, causing strife, drunkardness, coveting.. etc, etc.. That is the sometimes overlooked Biblical teaching.
> 
> In my mind, there is no hope, or joy in putting my faith in the earth, and just dying when I die. To me, that is dreadful. What is the good news about that? The Bible teaches life everlasting. I am at peace, with joy in my heart that my salvation does not depend on my good vs. bad on a scale, hoping one will out-weigh the other, or just dying and turning to dust. We don't know from where we came, and we don't know where we are going. I trust Christ. I accept that I will be persecuted for my faith. Jesus told me already, so I am prepared.
> ...


see to me i dont need to read the bible to know that these things are wrong. maybe there was a time when man began to become civilized that it was necessary for these teachings but these are more respect towards other poeple issues then "the bible says" issues these should be guide lines to follow and learn not to have to let it completely control your life, do you really need to go to church every sunday to be reminded of how to act like a respectful civilized human? i dont i just treat others the way i want to be treated, unless i dont like them of course


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> I understand where you are comming from, and I'm sure you have heard this before, but the Christian view on death, sickness, war, etc., comes from 'the fall of humanity' or 'sin.'
> Also, the Bible teaches that without the introduction of sin in the world, (disobediance to God) i.e. the Adam and Eve story,.. there would be no death, sickness, war, etc. -at all.
> (The Bible says Adam was over 900 years old when he died, and records many reaching 600+ years, including Noah... Bible teaches the human lifespan was growing ever shorter after Noah's flood)
> 
> ...


How do we know exactly how many years anyone supposedly lived in the Bible? Were they using the same calendar that we are using today? Was 900 years really like 900 years on the Roman calendar? Also, if there was no sickness or disease or death, then how would the population be controlled? People would be multiplying like, well, rabbits! Morseo than they are now!









Death to me isn't just about dying and that's it. I'm not exactly sure what I believe, but I do believe that there is some sort of afterlife, possibly reincarnation. It's tough for me to explain but I can if you'd like me to. Also, I believe in an everlasting cycle...a spiral of life. Dying isn't an end...it's a path to a new beginning. New life cannot begin without death.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

nismo driver said:


> Draco, you are 100% correct in that 'we' are totally to blame. All true Bible believing Christians would agree with that statement in it's entirety. But to say that 'any of us' have outgrown greed, selfishness, and intolerance, _in it's entirety _I can't agree with. We can keep it to a minimum, (if we learn serious disciplines) but we can not erase it completely, period. It is woven into our very being!
> Please, lets be honest.. _to SOME DEGREE, we are all full of these things_. -lying, stealing, murdering, adultering, fornicating, causing strife, drunkardness, coveting.. etc, etc.. That is the sometimes overlooked Biblical teaching.
> 
> In my mind, there is no hope, or joy in putting my faith in the earth, and just dying when I die. To me, that is dreadful. What is the good news about that? The Bible teaches life everlasting. I am at peace, with joy in my heart that my salvation does not depend on my good vs. bad on a scale, hoping one will out-weigh the other, or just dying and turning to dust. We don't know from where we came, and we don't know where we are going. I trust Christ. I accept that I will be persecuted for my faith. Jesus told me already, so I am prepared.
> ...


see to me i dont need to read the bible to know that these things are wrong. maybe there was a time when man began to become civilized that it was necessary for these teachings but these are more respect towards other poeple issues then "the bible says" issues these should be guide lines to follow and learn not to have to let it completely control your life, do you really need to go to church every sunday to be reminded of how to act like a respectful civilized human? i dont i just treat others the way i want to be treated, unless i dont like them of course
[/quote]
well, truthfully, I expected you to miss the whole point of my post, as you did, no offence!


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

you said
How do we know exactly how many years anyone supposedly lived in the Bible? Were they using the same calendar that we are using today? Was 900 years really like 900 years on the Roman calendar? Also, if there was no sickness or disease or death, then how would the population be controlled? People would be multiplying like, well, rabbits! Morseo than they are now!

The Bible actually states the number of years they lived, there is no confusion on the interpretation. It is found in the book of Genesis. I have no idea on how to answer theo other questions you have, sound kinda silly lol

you also said
Death to me isn't just about dying and that's it. I'm not exactly sure what I believe, but I do believe that there is some sort of afterlife, possibly reincarnation. It's tough for me to explain but I can if you'd like me to. Also, I believe in an everlasting cycle...a spiral of life. Dying isn't an end...it's a path to a new beginning. New life cannot begin without death.

Go ahead and explain... I would like to state that the Bible teaches that the natural mind considers the Bible 'foolishness.' 
Is that your idea of it? It just sounds like Nismo is convinced it is. I don't think it is hard to understand that we are all bent towards evil, and need to be reconciled back to the Creator somehow. 
Also, I have been a Christian for under 2 years.. I never thought about God or anything like that until a few things happened (quite normal things) and I had a compelling dream.. just thought i would add that.
You guys might have actually liked me a couple years ago.. lol


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

I'm the exact opposite...I was raised a Christian and turned away a few years ago due to a few compelling happenings. It's not Christian beliefs that I had to get away from, it was the polititcs involved and the lack of answers. Anytime I would ask a question they didn't like I would get a "well, we shouldn't think about those things" response. Now I see things much clearer, like a haze has been lifted. I have tons more respect for myself and everyone else around me.

I'd explain my thoughts further on death and the afterlife, but since you put it that way saying that it's "foolishness" before even hearing what I have to say, then I don't think I'd like to open myself to further persecution. If you'd like to know you're more than welcome to do a search in this forum...I have shared my views deeply in the past. When I get respect I give it in return. Just because I may not agree with someone else's religious views I would never in a million years call them "foolishness." I believe that all religions are interconnected and related. They all have similar myths and stories and borrow upon each other. Discounting one is like discounting yourself, in my opinion. Christianity is hardly the only belief system with myths of virgin births and resurrection. That is why I take a neutral stance. To me, they're all about the same thing. I've held plenty of conversations with aethiest, Agnostic, and Christian where respect was given all around.

As far as 900 years, yes the Bible does state "900 years," but what exactly was a year to the Bible? How do we know that it was a fallible human interpretation when it was translated from an ancient language to Latin and then later English? I kinda chuckle when people are so particular about holidays on specific dates. You wanna keep track of time? Look to the cycles of the moon. At any given time I can pretty much tell you where the moon is. I think my questions regarding the Bible's traditional lack of sickness, death, and disease are quite valid. But I forget, you aren't supposed to ask "why's" and "what if's." That's another reason why I left to find my own answers.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

dracofish said:


> I'm the exact opposite...I was raised a Christian and turned away a few years ago due to a few compelling happenings. It's not Christian beliefs that I had to get away from, it was the polititcs involved and the lack of answers. Anytime I would ask a question they didn't like I would get a "well, we shouldn't think about those things" response. Now I see things much clearer, like a haze has been lifted. I have tons more respect for myself and everyone else around me.
> 
> I'd explain my thoughts further on death and the afterlife, but since you put it that way saying that it's "foolishness" before even hearing what I have to say, then I don't think I'd like to open myself to further persecution. If you'd like to know you're more than welcome to do a search in this forum...I have shared my views deeply in the past. When I get respect I give it in return. Just because I may not agree with someone else's religious views I would never in a million years call them "foolishness." I believe that all religions are interconnected and related. They all have similar myths and stories and borrow upon each other. Discounting one is like discounting yourself, in my opinion. Christianity is hardly the only belief system with myths of virgin births and resurrection. That is why I take a neutral stance. To me, they're all about the same thing. I've held plenty of conversations with aethiest, Agnostic, and Christian where respect was given all around.
> 
> As far as 900 years, yes the Bible does state "900 years," but what exactly was a year to the Bible? How do we know that it was a fallible human interpretation when it was translated from an ancient language to Latin and then later English? I kinda chuckle when people are so particular about holidays on specific dates. You wanna keep track of time? Look to the cycles of the moon. At any given time I can pretty much tell you where the moon is. I think my questions regarding the Bible's traditional lack of sickness, death, and disease are quite valid. But I forget, you aren't supposed to ask "why's" and "what if's." That's another reason why I left to find my own answers.


read what I wrote again please.. the Bible says people think the BIBLE is foolishness, I never said what you were going to say was anything like that at all... please read. I would never say that to you. I guess you didn't read what I said carefully enough to get that.

also, I am sorry that you were part of a legalistic Church.. they are everywhere, and they teach bondage, not grace and love. sorry to hear that. And they should absolutely answer every question that you have with love and care.. and if they don't know the answer, then they should tell you! I don't blame you for leaving. It wasn't a healthy place to be IMO.

ya, a year in the Bible was just that. a year, going by the stars and moon.. just like what you were saying. it's in there. And what if's are welcomed at my church.. there is no problem of any sort with any of that to me..

Please try and look at what I'm saying. I have no desire to be the way you are trying to make me out to be. Honestly. I mention that I love Christ, and people bash me, and twist what I say nearly every time.. I have no problem with that. Just read again. Tell me what part is offensive, and I will apologize and listen. I'm not perfect!


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