# Different Pygo's Together In 1 Tank



## MFNRyan

I'm getting a 125g, I have three RBP, smallest one is about 3.5 biggest is about 5. I have been told you can put them with other Pygo's an have your best chance of success. I know there is no promises on anything with P's. What I want to do is put 3 Cariba about the same size and 2 Ternetzi with them, an maybe one or two more RBP. I know they could not live life out in that tank size but they could easily live 2 years or so. Growth rate slows down greatly after 6" I've been told. What is most likely to happen with this set up? Once the fish are bigger an I have a little bigger tank I would also like to try a small shoal of exidon's with them. Some expert advice would be nice in clearing this up for me.


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## Piranha-Freak101

why would you get something that you will later have to upgrade









Caribas grow really large and 125gl is not sufficient for all those pygos , remember you want them to live like this







not like this


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## bob351

Growth rate slows at about 8-9 with caribes, not sure on terns but i have had juvie caribes go from 1" to well over 8" in a year they also have way more mass than red. IMO the caribes and terns will outgrow the reds cannibalism is a possibility but i would recommend an all tern tank or all caribe tank, in the end they look more natural and more eye pleasing i hate the look of 2 or 3 diff pygos together its blasphemy to me







. If i was you id go with 5 terns or caribes in a 125 and you should be good for an upgrade for about 2 years but once they hit the 9-10" mark id upgrade to 180. Your plan on 10 pygos in a 125 is way overstocked to much bioload plus caribes demand alot of space and will bully the other for it, they are savage bullies n will fight each other all day long not to sure on terns since i haven't had them but i can imagine there worse than reds


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## Piranha-Freak101

bob351 said:


> Growth rate slows at about 8-9 with caribes, not sure on terns but i have had juvie caribes go from 1" to well over 8" in a year they also have way more mass than red. IMO the caribes and terns will outgrow the reds cannibalism is a possibility but i would recommend an all tern tank or all caribe tank, in the end they look more natural and more eye pleasing i hate the look of 2 or 3 diff pygos together its blasphemy to me
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> . If i was you id go with 5 terns or caribes in a 125 and you should be good for an upgrade for about 2 years but once they hit the 9-10" mark id upgrade to 180. Your plan on 10 pygos in a 125 is way overstocked to much bioload plus caribes demand alot of space and will bully the other for it, they are savage bullies n will fight each other all day long not to sure on terns since i haven't had them but i can imagine there worse than reds


what happend to four redbelly to a 180gl let alone cariba


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## bob351

piranha-freak101 said:


> Growth rate slows at about 8-9 with caribes, not sure on terns but i have had juvie caribes go from 1" to well over 8" in a year they also have way more mass than red. IMO the caribes and terns will outgrow the reds cannibalism is a possibility but i would recommend an all tern tank or all caribe tank, in the end they look more natural and more eye pleasing i hate the look of 2 or 3 diff pygos together its blasphemy to me
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> . If i was you id go with 5 terns or caribes in a 125 and you should be good for an upgrade for about 2 years but once they hit the 9-10" mark id upgrade to 180. Your plan on 10 pygos in a 125 is way overstocked to much bioload plus caribes demand alot of space and will bully the other for it, they are savage bullies n will fight each other all day long not to sure on terns since i haven't had them but i can imagine there worse than reds


what happend to four redbelly to a 180gl let alone cariba








[/quote]
I don't no what your talking about, but i remember someone had a single red in a 180 and they wanted 3 more and i said perfect thoes will be the happiness reds in the hobby is that what your referring to


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## Piranha-Freak101

o ok i misunderstood, deffinately not wuestion your knowledge just seeing if your spreadin different opinions and advices


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## MFNRyan

[email protected] IT!! This sucks, I already got 3 RBP. I have been told I could mix them by some and told not by others. I don't know what to do here now. Also I was told since all the fish are less then 5" I could get by with 7-10 pygo's in a 125g for at least 2 years which is great because then I would have a reason to upgrade later an get another fish LOL That way my women don't give me hell for buying to much stuff to close together. I wanted to get a Manny an got talked out of it because they are hard to keep, Was thinking about a Rhom but it takes them forever to get any size an I would need a huge tank for just one later on. I wanted a Pygo tank an to take my 55g throw a Gibbus in there an my 36 bow front have a purple Sanchezi which I was going to get with the 3 Cariba. Now I don't know how I should go about this


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## Piranha-Freak101

7-10 pygos is still overstocked 4 a 180gl .....


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## MFNRyan

They are only 4.5 inches max an the smallest is about 3.5 so anywhere in between that. Right now.. I know they will eventually grow to big for it


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## Piranha-Freak101

so your upgrading to what size tank?


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## MFNRyan

Well I was hoping to get maybe 2 years, but I am now figuring out that I may not be able to get 2 years from this set up. What I would probably do is later separate the Terns since they get huge an maybe pull the Cariba out. Depending on what happens with the fish living together. I guess nothing is easy with P's lol.


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## Piranha-Freak101

hahaha how bout 4 healthy pygos in the 180gl


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## Dolphinswin

Heres what you do. You go to the petstore return the red bellys, Go online order 8 cariba when available. Put them in the 125gal and enjoy the most aggressive of all pygos.


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## pirana666

okee, i have 9 reds about 5 year old (7 at 8 inch) and 3 caribe 4 or 5? years (8 to 10 inch)

so far i cant complain about agression,de reds in my tank seem to be the bully s NOT the caribe....
and there one caribe called brutus he s verry big he s a frendley giant ...he s the peacekeeper at some momments...
i think that its just a matter of wat you want, COHAB OR NOT .... 
reds dont get that big, so if you want something bigger...caribe,..(piraya 130 GAL each...)
but i like my cohab i have a tank 240 GAL...so that should do it.
and when the temperture is not that high everything seems fine no agression...onley some reds bully eachother nothing special...
hope you get wat you want.... here a vieuw from my tank...the qaulity isnt that good sorry..

http://www.youtube.com/user/666sirus666#p/a/u/1/mdgPRNM3VRE


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## Guest

Red bellies and Cariba grow at approx the same rate and can easily reach 6-8 inches in their first year of growth. With a 125G you could have 6 pygos in there no problem. So since you already have 3 reds, you could add 3 cariba. Just make sure they are all about the same size or you could have some issues. They can live happily in that 125G for a couple years as long as you are consistant with keeping up on your water changes and provide excellent filtration.


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## Mr. Hannibal

IMO 5 "Pygos" (single or mixed species) should "work" (this meaning anything can happen, even casualties) in a 125g for a long while... if you want a bigger shoal you will need a bigger tank (at least a 180g tank)...


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## Piranha-Freak101

Dolphinswin said:


> Heres what you do. You go to the petstore return the red bellys, Go online order 8 cariba when available. Put them in the 125gal and enjoy the most aggressive of all pygos.


8 cariba in a 125gl







!!!

do you know how big these guys get !


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## MFNRyan

Piranha666 that's a very nice tank and setup you got. I may give the Cariba, an red belly tank a try still not sure. The Cariba are hard to get here.

I know how big they get.. I KNOW!! but right NOW they are only freakin 4 inches!!!!! P-Freak I'm not putting four 4 inch fish in a 125g. It will look empty, like I have said over and over i just want the set up for a year maybe two then I will split the fish up or get a bigger tank. But for NOW they will work fine in a 125g.

Like we have gone over in the past 20 post lol.. it's not a for life set up lol


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## Ja'eh

bob351 said:


> Growth rate slows at about 8-9 with caribes, not sure on terns but i have had juvie caribes go from 1" to well over 8" in a year they also have way more mass than red. IMO the caribes and terns will outgrow the reds cannibalism is a possibility but i would recommend an all tern tank or all caribe tank, in the end they look more natural and more eye pleasing i hate the look of 2 or 3 diff pygos together its blasphemy to me
> 
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> . If i was you id go with 5 terns or caribes in a 125 and you should be good for an upgrade for about 2 years but once they hit the 9-10" mark id upgrade to 180. Your plan on 10 pygos in a 125 is way overstocked to much bioload plus caribes demand alot of space and will bully the other for it, they are savage bullies n will fight each other all day long not to sure on terns since i haven't had them but i can imagine there worse than reds


No way bro! Mixed shoals look sweet...those are the only kind of shoals I've kept and would consider keeping again.


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## MFNRyan

I'm going to give the Cariba/Red belly a try. If it looks like it's not working out I'll buy a 180g to put the Cariba in an maybe add one or two an leave them there then add to my Red Belly tank. We will see how this goes and I will keep you guys posted with pic's an updates. Hope to start the shoal next weekend or maybe after


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## Dolphinswin

piranha-freak101 said:


> Heres what you do. You go to the petstore return the red bellys, Go online order 8 cariba when available. Put them in the 125gal and enjoy the most aggressive of all pygos.


8 cariba in a 125gl







!!!

do you know how big these guys get !
[/quote]
Umm yea I do, and I also know when you get 8 2" ones theres more than likely going to be casualites, reducing the number to 6...?


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## MFNRyan

That's what I keep trying to say dolphinswim, Yeah 8 full grown is to many for a 125g, but not right now and it won't stay that way for sure. Listen to the question being asked, not the end result. I know you can't put 8 12" fish of any sort in a 125g


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## Dolphinswin

RedBelly11 said:


> That's what I keep trying to say dolphinswim, Yeah 8 full grown is to many for a 125g, but not right now and it won't stay that way for sure. Listen to the question being asked, not the end result. I know you can't put 8 12" fish of any sort in a 125g


you can start with as many small pygos as you want, just thin the heard if need be. You know what your doing and your plan man, make it happen. Id go all cariba or no cariba though, there the coolest pygo IMO and I wouldn't want to take any site of them for some regular red bellies. Its your choice. GL


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## MFNRyan

I wanted to do a Pygo tank, but the more I talk to you guys on here the more I am finding out you can't mix even Pygo's. I really like my red belly's but don't want to cause any unneeded BS in the tank. I guess I'm going to have a red belly tank and a Cariba tank. I'll just keep my three in their tank and take the 3 cariba an put in my new 125g


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## Dolphinswin

RedBelly11 said:


> I wanted to do a Pygo tank, but the more I talk to you guys on here the more I am finding out you can't mix even Pygo's. I really like my red belly's but don't want to cause any unneeded BS in the tank. I guess I'm going to have a red belly tank and a Cariba tank. I'll just keep my three in their tank and take the 3 cariba an put in my new 125g


you might as well put more than three in the new tank though...? You can keep them together you just have to get the right sizes to mix. There tons of videos showing piraya ternetzi reds and cariba all cohabing happily.


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## MFNRyan

Mine are around 4 inches right now. The Cariba I am getting is not from a store but a personal seller. There are none in stock in the stores right now. He only has 3 Cariba and they are 4inches also. I'm trying to find 2 Tern's I would like these because they are yellow but don't know the stereo type of the tern's behavior.


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## Mr. Hannibal

Dolphinswin said:


> I wanted to do a Pygo tank, but the more I talk to you guys on here the more I am finding out you can't mix even Pygo's. I really like my red belly's but don't want to cause any unneeded BS in the tank. I guess I'm going to have a red belly tank and a Cariba tank. I'll just keep my three in their tank and take the 3 cariba an put in my new 125g


you might as well put more than three in the new tank though...? You can keep them together you just have to get the right sizes to mix. There tons of videos showing piraya ternetzi reds and cariba *all cohabing happily*.
[/quote]

Well, that's hardly true... just because you see some videos of some fish that "seems" to be cohabing "happily" you can't really tell it is true in that or any other other case... IMO mixed Pygo "shoals" are harder to maintain than single species (especially with Cariba and Piraya together), it requires certain experience with single species shoals and no matter what you do casualties most likely will happen (especially with juvenile Pygos)... Personally i'd give them plenty of room (never overstock) when mixing Pygo species and pray... sure it (mixed Pygo ahoals) will work in some cases but it's not easy to accomplish and requires some experience...


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## MFNRyan

Still debating this one. I'm certainly not doing any piraya, they aren't what I'm wanting. I dont want to risk any fish, I'm thinking I should just do two bigger tanks with 3 of each in each of the tank. Not mix them. Although I would love to have them in one tank. I thought the Cariba would bring some life into the red bellies. I may put up a post asking if anyone has done a shoal of mixed Red Bellies with Cariba an see what their experiance was how many casualties, how often the fish were chewed up and how long it lasted. Maybe then that can help me make up my mind


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## Domelotta

I have a mixed pygo tank right now, and although there have been two cases of cannibalism it is going well. I had 9 fish total, which was way overstocked, but now with 7 it seems to be going much better. It's a 120gl tank. Based on my observations, it seems like they are just as aggressive towards each other equally (the Tern is the meanest and tries to claim the most territory). As long as you have adequate filtration I think a cohab will work for a fairly long time.


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## Mr. Hannibal

Well, Caribas could "bring some life into the red bellies" or could bring them death







... it's impossible to foresee what will happen in a mixed or single pygo species "shoal"... if you want to give it a try just keep in mind there are risks involved (especially with juvenile Pygos, since they "tend" to be more cannibalistic than adults)... certainly a mixed pygo "shoal" can work, but i'd recommend you give them space (enough room, do not overstock), keep them very well fed, low temp and a powerhead, pray and hopefully it will work...


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## Domelotta

RedBelly11 said:


> Still debating this one. I'm certainly not doing any piraya, they aren't what I'm wanting. I dont want to risk any fish, I'm thinking I should just do two bigger tanks with 3 of each in each of the tank. Not mix them. Although I would love to have them in one tank. I thought the Cariba would bring some life into the red bellies. I may put up a post asking if anyone has done a shoal of mixed Red Bellies with Cariba an see what their experiance was how many casualties, how often the fish were chewed up and how long it lasted. Maybe then that can help me make up my mind


Cohab began June 2010

-1 large Tern, 5 medium sized Natts, 3 semi-larger Caribe
-1 Casualty in August (1 Natt down)
-1 Casualty in February (another Natt down)
-Since then, everyone has chilled out and territories are disputed over anymore since there's room for each pygo to be happy (although the large Tern still tries to dominate)
-I would definitely say that the tank is more lively that a regular Red Belly Tank. I've kept both now (3 years of Red Bellies & almost 1 year cohab) 
-My fish come to the surface when I come near the tank in general. Very interactive and even come after the mag-float if I move it around quickly.

-On a side note, I would say enough room is the biggest problem for a cohab imo. As long as you keep them well fed and they aren't constantly in each others territory it should work.

-I have seen a pygo cohab tank video from an earlier member though that seemed to work well BECAUSE it was overstocked. The pygos weren't able to establish territories, so they weren't as aggressive towards each other. I believe his name was HOllYWOOD. "he had appx. 30 pygos averaging 12" in length... and an amazing 125 gallon set-up with fifteen terns each at 16" each"


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## Mr. Hannibal

Overstocking has "worked" for some people with ADULT Ps, but it is a NONO with juvenile Ps... i've been keeping piranhas since 1989 and IME overstocking is not a good thing for several reasons...


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## MFNRyan

I def don't want to overstock, means more mess, more water changes, an the tank doesn't look right crowded up like that. I'm glad to see a cohab does work. I can keep the water temp low and the tank opened. I may give it a try with just 6 an wait on the tern since I can't seem to find any for sale anyway. I don't know if I should get an extra red or two just in to prepare for casualty and if there are none move them later or what. I think I'll do a little more looking into this. If Hannibal wasn't so against it I think i would do it! lol He is very knowledgeable on this stuff and most of his advice comes from experience. So when he warns me against something I usually listen. learn from his mistake. I have heard of these co-hab's working for a year or so, but one case in 100 attempts would not be my idea of deeming this easily accomplished. I will probably start a new topic on the idea.. tomorrow though.. got work in the am. Thanks Domelotta for your advice though. Its nice to know there is some chance of this working since I do have my heart set on this and was my idea when I bought the new tank lol


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## Dolphinswin

3 cariba in a 125 is understocking...


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## hastatus

What I suggest for those that say over stocking is good or suggest "cohabs". They should offer to pay back the persons loss because of their suggestion. I think its only.fair....don't you?


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## Dolphinswin

hastatus said:


> What I suggest for those that say over stocking is good or suggest "cohabs". They should offer to pay back the persons loss because of their suggestion. I think its only.fair....don't you?


Not really? You can easily keep 4-5 cariba at 8" inches in a 125gal. My 75gal held 4 red bellys 7" each and I was considering upping it to 5...


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## hastatus

So you agree to refund any hobbyist? Am I understanding you correctly.


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## Dolphinswin

hastatus said:


> So you agree to refund any hobbyist? Am I understanding you correctly.


You asked if it was fair, and I replied, not really? YOU CAN KEEP 5-6 CARIBA IN A 125gal COMFORTABLY PEOPLE.


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## hastatus

So in otherwords your not willing to putting money on it. Ok. Just checking to see how strong your advice is. Cheers.


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## Mr. Hannibal

hastatus said:


> What I suggest for those that say over stocking is good or suggest "cohabs". They should offer to pay back the persons loss because of their suggestion. I think its only.fair....don't you?


That would be pretty nice









It's sad some people think something will "work" just because it has worked for them (and a couple of guys against hundreds of people experience) for a while (trust me, 1, 2, 3 years is just a while)... experience (and i mean my personal experience and what i've learned on this forum) has taught us overstocking doesn't works...


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## Dolphinswin

5 cariba isnt overstocking man, 3 is way under stocking. might as well forget the 125gal and grab a smaller tank such as a 75gal for those 3 cariba, itll be alot cheaper.


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## Mr. Hannibal

Dolphinswin said:


> So you agree to refund any hobbyist? Am I understanding you correctly.


You asked if it was fair, and I replied, not really? YOU CAN KEEP 5-6 CARIBA IN A 125gal COMFORTABLY PEOPLE.
[/quote]

Well, i live in Venezuela (what you may call "Cariba Paradise") and i've been keeping Caribas since 1989 and IMHE certainly you can keep 5-6 small Caribas in a 125g tank for a SHORT while... is that comfortable for them? hardly!, will they survive? yes, no, everything can happen, just throw the dice... IME you need at leat a 180g tank for 5-6 nice sized Caribas for a long while/life...


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## Domelotta

lol, Shoulda just stuck to _browsing_ the forums as usual. I guess in a decade or so I should have enough experience to give my 2cents on an issue. My suggestions were based solely on MY experience as a fishkeeper. I have learned everything I know from THIS site, and was only attempting to relay information that was passed on to me. I wish you the best of luck in whatever route you decide to go RedBelly11


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## Piranha-Freak101

Mr. Hannibal said:


> So you agree to refund any hobbyist? Am I understanding you correctly.


You asked if it was fair, and I replied, not really? YOU CAN KEEP 5-6 CARIBA IN A 125gal COMFORTABLY PEOPLE.
[/quote]

Well, i live in Venezuela (what you may call "Cariba Paradise") and i've been keeping Caribas since 1989 and IMHE certainly you can keep 5-6 small Caribas in a 125g tank for a SHORT while... is that comfortable for them? hardly!, will they survive? yes, no, everything can happen, just throw the dice... IME you need at leat a 180g tank for 5-6 nice sized Caribas for a long while/life...
[/quote]
X2


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## hastatus

My advice has always been to give the fish the largest space available. P cariba is a large species. Larger than P nattereri. The larger the container the better chance they will reach there maximum recorded size. I don't see that happen in a 125 gallon aquarium with a many species as the gentleman recommends. Mr. Hannibal is correct.


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## MFNRyan

Well I wanted 3 Cariba and 3 red bellies. Right now at 4 inches that's only 24inches of fish. lets say in two years they are 6-7inches thats only 42inches of fish. That's 1 gallon shy of three times the tank space per fish. That's saying the fish make it two to three years. As long as it last longer then a year it will keep the women off my a$$ for buying this tank with the money I have spent on it. If I have to I can buy another and separate the two species. I'm far from a fish expert, I know Frank (hastatus) is very very knowledgeable and My. Hannible has given me very good advice. It's hard to go against that. These guys are also die hard life fish guys. They look all the way into the very root of the set up an give you advice based on that. Reality is, I won't keep this set up for more then two years. I'll keep the fish for life but the set up will certainly change. I just want to know if I can get by with this set up for a year or two. I know nothing is for sure, there is always a chance when you mix any two piranha of any species that one will eat or kill the other. I also know my chances are the lowest of this happening by keeping pygo's together. An people like Domletta has made this set up work, I have heard of a few making it work. I also know 6 4" fish in a tank will be understocked. The fish will eventually outgrow the tank I know this also. Never would I want my tank overstocked anyway. I was looking for some good advice and I feel like I got some from everyone. From die hard fish keepers to your everyday fish keeper like me. People who don't deal on such large scale and for the same terms as someone like hannible, an hastatus. I haven't made my mind up what I'm going to do here but I have got a lot of helpful tips. Thanks


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## Mr. Hannibal

Well Ryan, Caribas are fast growers (given the right circumstances) so 4"ers should reach 8" long withing a year... so IMO you should upgrade your tank within a year or so (the sooner the better of course)... anyway as been said you never know with Ps (especially juveniles) so don't be surprised if things don't turn out as planned... just keep a close eye to your Ps, keep them well fed, add a powerhead and upgrade your tank as soon as you can... good luck


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## jp80911

Mr. Hannibal said:


> Well Ryan, Caribas are fast growers (given the right circumstances) so 4"ers should reach 8" long withing a year... so IMO you should upgrade your tank within a year or so (the sooner the better of course)... anyway as been said you never know with Ps (especially juveniles) so don't be surprised if things don't turn out as planned... just keep a close eye to your Ps, keep them well fed, add a powerhead and upgrade your tank as soon as you can... good luck


x2, the largest one in my last shoal was 8" and the smallest one was about 5-6" and I had them for just about 6-7 months or so from 1".


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## the_w8

I personally think 3 large caribe in a 125G would be fine. The whole fish per gallon rule is too gray as is. Some people tell you you can overstock, some tell you to only do 3-4 caribe in a 125G tank. I say give the fish the most space as possible. The only downside to the 125G is its 18". I feel the extra 6" is a world of difference especially when it comes to caribes. 5-6 full grown caribes in a 180G would be perfect IMO and IS NOT a waste of space. If you want the most caribes as possible, then go with a large tank or don't get them at all.


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## CJPIRANHA

Might as well add my 2 cents to the topic after all this reading







. I'm setting up a 125g also, have asked stocking questions on here and other boards, have done some research myself, and had Piranha in the past. The answer to your question depends on what you want and what you are willing to risk. Ideally with a typical 125g running the right filtration, having easy to maintain water quality, with minimal risk of casualties you'll want 3-4 fish that max out at no more than 12". Anything that is longer than 12" is gonna be cramped in a tank that is 18" wide. That tank can house 3-4 for life with enough space to make life for them as natural as you can with a tank. This is a guideline and not a hard rule IMHO but it's a good one if you put the fishes well being first.

You can push that limit to about 6 fish if you are diligent on your tank maintenance but you risk losing fish either to poor water conditions, or cannibalism. It's common to overstock a tank with Piranha fry and let them thin the herd as they grow. I'm stocking with 6 RBP and will separate them into a second tank, or sell them if there are no casualties once they grow out. I'd like to see if I can get a breeding pair so I'm overstocking and will separate the pair into their own 125g if I get lucky. If you browse the site look at the size tanks people are using for a single Serra, it's not a 20g. So even though a 125g looks big, with 6 fish in it that is only about 20g/fish. That is overstocking big time.

As far as mixing or co-habing Piranha goes, I've never done it. With shoaling Piranha it looks better/natural in a tank when they all are the same IMO. Takes the guess work out of who will survive based on the size and growth rate. If you want more fish, get a second tank and make it a BIG one.


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## Ibanez247

WTF are you gusy talking about? I have 8 pygos in a 125 wide. 5 Reds and 3 Terns. Two terns are over 10" and couple of the reds are around 10" maybe a little bigger. Theres plenty of room in the tank. Most of the time they are all grouped on one side of the tank aynway so its like they live in half the tank. When they are sleeping they tend to be spread out in the tank and it still seems relatively empty. When active they tend to line up in the front of the tank. In the 8 years of keepign pygos I have not had a single aggression problem. Maybe its because I have a wide tank and not a standard 18". The whole 20 gallons per fish is a general rule not you have to have 20 gallons per fish period. I say raise the caribe and when they get to a large size in a few years you can always sell em.


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## Mr. Hannibal

Ibanez247 said:


> WTF are you gusy talking about? I have 8 pygos in a 125 wide. 5 Reds and 3 Terns. Two terns are over 10" and couple of the reds are around 10" maybe a little bigger. Theres plenty of room in the tank. Most of the time they are all grouped on one side of the tank aynway so its like they live in half the tank. When they are sleeping they tend to be spread out in the tank and it still seems relatively empty. When active they tend to line up in the front of the tank. In the 8 years of keepign pygos I have not had a single aggression problem. Maybe its because I have a wide tank and not a standard 18". The whole 20 gallons per fish is a general rule not you have to have 20 gallons per fish period. I say raise the caribe and when they get to a large size in a few years you can always sell em.


Just because it "worked" for you, doesn't mean it will work for others (especially when it mostly fails).... here you will find different experiences (including yours) when talking about Pygo "shoaling" and tank space... IME (and that's more than 22 years keeping Caribas and other Ps) and what i can conclude from others members experiences throughout the years is you need at least a 180g tank for 6 Ps "for life"... i've seen dogs and other animals living in a shoe box but it doesn't mean that's the way it should be...


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## Piranha-Freak101

again X2^^^

@IBANZ how bout next time you chill out and explain how its working for you because like hannibal said just cause it worked for you doesnt mean itll work for everyone else


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## primetime3wise

yeah, i don't see 11",12", even as large as 14"+ pygos doing that great in a 125g...even my 4 geryi are pushing it in my 125g and they are around 9"-10". it's why i will, hopefully soon, get a 180g for them..and that size tank SHOULD make them more active.


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## bob351

from my experience the bigger the tank the more active the fish in all species


----------



## primetime3wise

true, and esp. true with skittish fish like p's.


----------



## bob351

they also dont go crashing into the sides of the aquarium they all just dart across into open water like they should vs all trying to get into the corner first


----------



## MFNRyan

CJPIRANHA said:


> Might as well add my 2 cents to the topic after all this reading
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I'm setting up a 125g also, have asked stocking questions on here and other boards, have done some research myself, and had Piranha in the past. The answer to your question depends on what you want and what you are willing to risk. Ideally with a typical 125g running the right filtration, having easy to maintain water quality, with minimal risk of casualties you'll want 3-4 fish that max out at no more than 12". Anything that is longer than 12" is gonna be cramped in a tank that is 18" wide. That tank can house 3-4 for life with enough space to make life for them as natural as you can with a tank. This is a guideline and not a hard rule IMHO but it's a good one if you put the fishes well being first.
> 
> You can push that limit to about 6 fish if you are diligent on your tank maintenance but you risk losing fish either to poor water conditions, or cannibalism. It's common to overstock a tank with Piranha fry and let them thin the herd as they grow. I'm stocking with 6 RBP and will separate them into a second tank, or sell them if there are no casualties once they grow out. I'd like to see if I can get a breeding pair so I'm overstocking and will separate the pair into their own 125g if I get lucky. If you browse the site look at the size tanks people are using for a single Serra, it's not a 20g. So even though a 125g looks big, with 6 fish in it that is only about 20g/fish. That is overstocking big time.
> 
> As far as mixing or co-habing Piranha goes, I've never done it. With shoaling Piranha it looks better/natural in a tank when they all are the same IMO. Takes the guess work out of who will survive based on the size and growth rate. If you want more fish, get a second tank and make it a BIG one.


Thanks for the advice, I seen you said something about a co-hab not looking to natural with a different species, I know this tank is an exception to all rules.. but check out Marco's post with is 3170liter co-hab tank.. it's freaking awesome. A far better tank an set up then i will ever have but so cool looking. It's all pygo's

Thanks for the help, an like i said I like hearing about the different set ups an how the work from everyone's point of view. Ibanez may not have the 22 years hannibal has but it is a case that this worked. I know hannibal is a good source an knows far more about these fish then most people on here. I also know it does not work out more then it does work. What I'm thinking is I need to get better at this an more familiar with the fish themselves, before i try to stick these guys an co-hab a tank. I'm having a problem with nitrites and nitrates now. Why would I complicate things if i don't even have this part down. lol


----------



## CJPIRANHA

RedBelly11 said:


> Thanks for the advice, I seen you said something about a co-hab not looking to natural with a different species, I know this tank is an exception to all rules.. but check out Marco's post with is 3170liter co-hab tank.. it's freaking awesome. A far better tank an set up then i will ever have but so cool looking. It's all pygo's


No problem. That's what the board is for, sharing info. With the tank size we were talking about IMO co-habing different pygos doesn't look natural. With Marco's tank which I think his post says it's 3170 gallons not liters that is a whole different story. Space isn't a factor at that point.


----------



## MFNRyan

Ok i see what you mean.Well the reason I was going to co-hab is I want a more active shoal. After all the belly aching I had to do to buy this new tank an get these fish if not even a year later I tell her I want a different one then she is going to come unglued lol. That an I do like my red bellies. I just don't like how easily they scare. The only time they will swim around very much is if it's quite an dark in here. I want a fish or shoal of fish that will swim around no matter whats going on in the living room. I'm looking at getting a ruby red from shark aquarium if the wife will let me spend the money lol.. I blow a lot of money on my mud truck, hunting, fishing, golf, an my fish. Her only hobby is hair an nails. so I have a hard time trying to buy this stuff. I have to spread it out or I get an earful


----------



## bob351

co hab does not equal activity, good filtration, health and room = activity

my pygos follow me around in the tank i couldn't scare em if i tried and they are 5" reds, they are more skittish before water changes since the water quality is not as good as it is after a water change


----------



## MFNRyan

I'm doing 3 a week. They don't seem to change ever. Food wise, water wise, nothing. I even turned the temp up from 80 to 84. still nothing. Anything happens in the living room they go single file to the corner of the tank. they are only about 3-4.5 inches


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## bob351

how much water are you changing every time and what water are you putting in? Also is your tank brightly lit they hate bright overhead lights they are from the amazon witch is deep and also murky in some places you cant see a 1' infront of you called black water


----------



## bob351

its all boils down to healthy fish = active fish

scared and skittish fish = something is wrong


----------



## hastatus

"Scared and skittish fish = something is wrong"

Are we still talking about piranhas here?


----------



## CJPIRANHA

There are a bunch of possible reasons for why your fish are skittish. Piranhas in the wild, especially RBP are easily scared. It's a survival mechanism since they are not the top predator in their environment. They are prey for many animals including people and river dolphins to name a few. So they see you and think predator, unless you condition them to your presence.

Years ago my shoal would follow me as I walked in front of their tank because they associated me with food. I would feed them with snake tongs or I would wiggle long strips of beef heart on a thread. It took a while but eventually they got the idea. They also had nowhere to hide because the tank was not planted and just had driftwood. I think they got used to me because they had no choice. Also it was in a high traffic area so they saw people going back and forth in front of the tank all day. The tank was lit only 0-6 hours a day at the most with a single dual bulb 48" shoplight that didn't cover the whole tank since it was 72" long. Also the bigger they got the more bold they got. If there is something that is repeatedly spooking your fish maybe you should deal with that issue first.


----------



## hastatus

These are young fish 3 + inches. Of course they exhibit fear. Lastly only a couple piranha species are found in blackwater (rarely) and that is in the area where the water mixes. They are largely found in clear and cloudy water. Common misconception they are found in dark sunless areas. That's very old school.


----------



## BRUNER247

If raised right rbp won't be skittish at any size. Imo your asking for trouble with 3 fish, whether its rbp, cariba,terns, or macs. & only having 3 is probably a lot of your hiding/skittish problem.


----------



## hastatus

"If raised right"???? What are you a child psychologist? These are fish. Please cite your magic formula on getting fish to act right. In 50 or so years I have never heard of that technique. Please enlighten all of us.


----------



## BRUNER247

Imprinting. Handfeeding makes a huge difference when done from their first real meals(frozen brine, bloodworms, ect). My rbp regardless of size 1"-10"+ come to the glass when they see me. They don't freak-out with tank maintenance.I actually have to nudge the adults with the siphon sometimes while cleaning because they don't fear me. Couple members have actually been bitten by 3"-4" rbp that I handfed from babies. 3"-4" is usually when rbp are the worst skittish wise.handfeeding from such a young age doesn't even let them get used to fearing the keeper.instead it makes them look for me. Food just isn't appearing before them with no connection to the keeper. I make them come to me & take it from my hand.


----------



## bob351

Im going to have to agree with bruner, never had a problem with skittish pygos once they learnt food was coming, now i have a bunch of beggars who swim at the tank like oscars when i come by. Forget piranhas most of my fish do this and so do my reptiles


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## hastatus

Fish do not imprint. They rely on instinctive behavior. That's your 2nd mistake thinking fish are like ducks, monkeys or even turtles.. Your first is making assumptions on your home model. But you are entitled toyour opinion on what you think and see in your home aquarium. But I would strongly suggest to you not to forget that unlike humans piranhas can and would bite the hand that feeds them without reservation. If given the opportunity or the one time you are careful. To think otherwise is foolish and dangerous to other hobbyist.


----------



## BRUNER247

Can't keep a puppy in a kennel & just give it food & expect it not to be hyper/skittish when it does see you. If you feed that puppy & Interact with it, it'll be a way better pet. You could lay food out for a raccoon, squirrel, bird, ect.sure they'll eat it but if they see you or you get to close they're gonna be skittish & freak-out wanting to get away.you take that same animal while a baby & handfeed it, it'll grow with no fear for humans or least not near as bad. & I know fish are different or are they?


----------



## bob351

So its instinctive behavior to swim to the top of the tank when a human comes by...









What about my oscar who does not react to me but if i have a red thing in my hand he goes nuts since his food is in a red pellet bag?


----------



## hastatus

Seems neither of you comprehend what I wrote. Its late and I'm going to bed.

For the rest of pfury members who read this remember what I wrote.


----------



## bob351

All fish are stupid and cant act upon anything but instinct is that correct?


----------



## BRUNER247

Oh its not just in my tanks & in my home. I'm curious have you handfed a batch or rbp from 1/2"- adult & seen the difference for yourself Frank? I'm guessing you haven't or you'd know there's a big difference. Anyhow I've seen the difference as has others here so something must be working whether its the handfeeding or just the extra time in front of the tank. Either way my rbp don't freak out regardless of size, regardless if they're in my tank or my bros tank 2 states away or bros tank across town. Split a batch in half n handfeed half n just feed normal the other half & tell me there's no difference.


----------



## BRUNER247

Just for the record I wouldn't advise anyone to handfeed 4"+ piranha with their hand actually in the water. To me 1/2"-4" handfeeding is hand in tank & fish eating from my hand.4"& up handfeeding is making the fish rise to top to eat without my hand in the water. Feeding them individually after they rise for food. No food ever hits the bottom either way. & I've never had a problem getting them to eat no matter what I offer thanks to handfeeding.


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

I just think its its the fish's living conditions that contribute to its behavior

Just my two cents


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

Though I think by nature piranhas will always be skiddish to some degree (It is also hard to define "skiddish" as it is relative to the observer and what they think it is vs normal behaviour) but I do think it is very possible for captive piranhas to get used to their surrounding (including you) and be more comfortable in them. That is not to say they will all of a sudden become fearless though I am saying with abit of time with them I beleive that they can get comfortable enough around you that they don't smash their faces off the glass when you get within 10ft of the tank. They will always have the ability to be skiddish though probably will not display it unless you give them a situation that they have never seen before.

For example: my elong now handfeeds. Initially it was shy and would move away from my hand but now it will go right up to it and take food from my fingers. Is it nessisarily less skiddish? No, but it is more used to it's surroundings and myself so it does not feel the need for the "flight" responce. If I suddenly moved my hand quickly at it it would probably dart as even though it is used to me it it not used to my rapid motion.Rapid motion is new surroundings for it that it has not seen and is therefore skiddish when it happens.

Lastly, I am talking about captive piranhas as it is difficult to have wild p's get comfortable with you unless you pen them or something at which point they would practically be captive.


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

good point ^^


----------



## hastatus

This "old dog" bruner has seen more piranha than you will ever imagine. Yes I read you previous unedited remarks. You made comments that fish imprint on humans in particular you. They don't. Surface feeding of juvenile piranhas is not new. Since in the wild juveniles seek insects and other smaller critter that are on the surface. So you have taught them nothing other than the fish shoeing instinctive behavior and conditioned feeding. You can do the same with guppys or trout. That is not learned behavior but set in the genes.

Even a 2 to 3 inch piranha can slice your finger.

But if you don't believe it then I look forward to the day when the piranha proves it to you.


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

IMO you are simply talking about conditioned response, conditioned behavior... i agree witk Frank and Cluster One Ps won't become less "skittish" simply because you hand feed... they just get use to it (and you as part of their surroundings)... you can't change their nature (where they naturaly fear other predators) but you may condition them to certain things with lot of patience... i've found they feel more "confident" when keeped in large groups which is very natural, sad you need a HUGE tank to keep a group that large...


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

Yupp yupp


----------



## bob351

no one is saying a 2" p cant do any damage.... nor is anyone saying its new for them to go to the surface, i was stating they come to the surface if i have food or not, the fact they can become conditioned to humans is proof in its self that they are not purely instinctual creatures IMO. They obviously retain there instincts of fear of predators but they can learn what is a threat and what feeds them IMO.


----------



## hastatus

Omg, he don't get it. Lol


----------



## Piranha-Freak101




----------



## bob351

hastatus said:


> Omg, he don't get it. Lol


Conditioning shows the ability to learn or at least to process thought further than just instinct... if they were purely instinctual then they would not be able to condition.


----------



## bob351

Instinct:

Natural inward impulse; unconscious, involuntary, or unreasoning prompting to any mode of action, whether bodily, or mental, without a distinct apprehension of the end or object to be accomplished.

A fish coming to the surface for food with a human present is learned behavior, if they just came to the surface when i wasn't around then it would be instinct but the fact they see a human and come to the surface shows thought with an objective in mind (being fed) vs just the natural predatory response witch would be to come to the surface when something is thrashing in the water.


----------



## jp80911

not a piranha but looks like fish can be trained





[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ShnINvygok


----------



## hastatus

Like I said you don't get it. I'll try one more time to explain. Your definition of instinct is partially correct. What you are omitting is genes. In fish studies (which you obviously are not aware of), genes play an important role on survival. What you see in practiced conditioning is no different than say... cariba migrating to bird areas to feast on chicks. That's partly bred into them (genetic) and conditioned response (food). It is not reasoning which is where you are failing to understand. Fish brains are not human-like, though in this forum I begin to wonder. Lol


----------



## primetime3wise

i think he's saying that, over time, they associate your presence, with food. so that, over time, they exhibit, which is for them instinctual behavior (going toward the surface for food), regardless if you have food or not.


----------



## Piranha-Freak101




----------



## bob351

So your saying just how salmon go up the same rivers they were born my pygos are pre programed to go were the food is, therefore i just replace the bird falling into the water with me walking infront of the tank and that triggers the same feeding instinct or response weather bird mouse or w.e falls into the water? Im slowly getting it i think


----------



## hastatus

More or less lol


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

thecariba theory sounds legit


----------



## hastatus

Primetime got it.


----------



## bob351

Alright i got it...









Just like to question things i find odd or are beyond my explanation, thanks for the info as usual frank


----------



## primetime3wise

i seem to remember something about a dog, a bell, some food, and a dog salivating, hehe...


----------



## BRUNER247

hastatus said:


> This "old dog" bruner has seen more piranha than you will ever imagine. Yes I read you previous unedited remarks. You made comments that fish imprint on humans in particular you. They don't. Surface feeding of juvenile piranhas is not new. Since in the wild juveniles seek insects and other smaller critter that are on the surface. So you have taught them nothing other than the fish shoeing instinctive behavior and conditioned feeding. You can do the same with guppys or trout. That is not learned behavior but set in the genes.
> 
> Even a 2 to 3 inch piranha can slice your finger.
> 
> But if you don't believe it then I look forward to the day when the piranha proves it to you.


Lol easy there old man. Idk where your getting that that was directed at you. Second nowhere have a questioned how many fish you've had, seen, cut open or whatever. The question was have you handfed a batch of rbp from 1/2" to adults(or even sub-adults). Also nowhere have I said I'm breaking new ground. Or whatever that BS was about. Lastly you think I haven't been bitten by piranha? Good to see the old Frank is back. Oh & sorry I didn't use the right word imprinting. Sorry I'm not all scientificly on a hobbist forum. I am a hobbyist. All im saying if you handfeed from a very young age. Whether its the actual handfeeding or time spent in front of tank or even both, your fish will be much calmer, more confident or whatever the correct word is. I still disagree with your comment all piranha(or maybe it was rbp) are skittish. You asked(kinda smartassly)to enlighten you with my method. I have this ancient Chinese secret that nobody else knows about except ME. So brilliant that nobodies even thought about trying. Its HANDFEEDING! You heard it 1st from me folks. Lol. Oh don't forget Frank that I invented Mac schooling/shoaling/co-habing/group. Or I'm the 1st to spawn rbp. There that should give ya plenty to pic apart/dysect/analyze or go scientific on my ass oh GREAT ONE.


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

primetime3wise said:


> i seem to remember something about a dog, a bell, some food, and a dog salivating, hehe...


Pavlov's conditioning.

Im still confused on what either side is trying to argue. To me it looks liek an argument where two sides are arguing their side yet those two sides do not have common ground and it is just miscommunication in the middle.


----------



## bob351

welcome to p-fury


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## Mr. Hannibal

Conditioned response with a genetic background, that's all it is...


----------



## hastatus

Seems to be a lot of that here. Lol


----------



## Mr. Hannibal




----------



## MFNRyan

sh!t


----------



## hastatus

> Lol easy there old man. Idk where your getting that that was directed at you. Second nowhere have a questioned how many fish you've had, seen, cut open or whatever. The question was have you handfed a batch of rbp from 1/2" to adults(or even sub-adults).
> *Silly question since I have owned piranhas since 1965 both large amounts of fry up to full adults. Too many to count, since it expands nearly 50 years.*
> 
> Also nowhere have I said I'm breaking new ground. Or whatever that BS was about. Lastly you think I haven't been bitten by piranha? Good to see the old Frank is back. Oh & sorry I didn't use the right word imprinting. Sorry I'm not all scientificly on a hobbist forum.
> 
> *I can see that, that's why I'm trying to educate you. But that's only if you want to learn. If you don't that's ok. You are entitled to your opinions whether right or wrong.*
> 
> I am a hobbyist.
> 
> *Aren't we all. *
> All im saying if you handfeed from a very young age. _Whether its the actual handfeeding or time spent in front of tank or even both, your fish will be much calmer, more confident or whatever the correct word is._
> *That's just plain dumb. Sorry, that's my opinion from where I sit.*
> 
> I still disagree with your comment all piranha(or maybe it was rbp) are skittish.
> 
> *Like I said, you are entitled to your opinion. I'm going solely by scientific results that span quite a few years. As for your last comment. Some things a better left alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> You asked(kinda smartassly)to enlighten you with my method. I have this ancient Chinese secret that nobody else knows about except ME. So brilliant that nobodies even thought about trying. Its HANDFEEDING! You heard it 1st from me folks. Lol. Oh don't forget Frank that I invented Mac schooling/shoaling/co-habing/group. Or I'm the 1st to spawn rbp. There that should give ya plenty to pic apart/dysect/analyze or go scientific on my ass oh GREAT ONE.





> Im still confused on what either side is trying to argue. To me it looks liek an argument where two sides are arguing their side yet those two sides do not have common ground and it is just miscommunication in the middle.


*Don't feel bad, I have no idea either.







*


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

Ive learned alot in this thread lmao


----------



## hastatus

So have I. Don't mess with bruner


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

Ahahah easy guys the lord has made us all unique with personal opinions but at the end of the day... uhhhh...hmmmm

We party?


----------



## hastatus

Im at a party but thanks for asking


----------



## BRUNER247

hastatus said:


> So have I. Don't mess with bruner


Your hilarious. You sound just like fefe.


----------



## hastatus

No idea who your friend fefe is. Not sure I'd want to know.


----------



## primetime3wise

I'm not picking on any one in particular, but it's nice to have a scientific mind back here, far too many of us make sh*t up as we go...

a day rarely goes by that i don't see some pretty outrageous claims.


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

X2


----------



## Dolphinswin

piranha-freak101 said:


> X2


quit with the times 2 crap (x2). Its annoying. Also have you ever had large pygos? So how can you say with your up most confidence 3-4 is all he can have in a 125? Im with Ibanez, You can fit way more in there. 5-6, large ones! Prime, I believe geyri would need more space than regular pygos as there more territorial.


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

R you on your period dude

Primetime was right unlike you


----------



## Dolphinswin

piranha-freak101 said:


> R you on your period dude
> 
> Primetime was right unlike you


I was unaware there was a set amount of fish per tank? No I just keep coming into this thread and seeing you x2 every post, almost like you already knew that information? All im saying is You could keep more than 3 cariba in a 125. Id do 3 cariba in a 75gal


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

Dolphinswin said:


> R you on your period dude
> 
> Primetime was right unlike you


I was unaware there was a set amount of fish per tank? No I just keep coming into this thread and seeing you x2 every post, almost like you already knew that information? All im saying is You could keep more than 3 cariba in a 125. Id do 3 cariba in a 75gal
[/quote]

So you want to keep 3 +11-12" Caribas in a 48x18" wide tank with only 75g of water...


----------



## hastatus

You can keep as many cariba in your 125g as you want. Nobody is stopping you. I'm all for letting the fish decide how many they are willing to let live without damage or death. Is that ethical? Hell no. Is that responsible piranha keeping? Nope. But its really up to the individual hobbyist to decide right from wrong. Those who have done piranha keeping for many years can only advice. Ultimately it is for you decide.


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

That's right Frank... Your fish your call ... but it's sad some people refuse to hear what more experienced members has to say: that experience has taught us it won’t work…


----------



## CJPIRANHA

This topic is like an overstocked tank! Lets see how many survive in the shoal.


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

As i told you before certainly you can keep 5-6 small Caribas in a 125g tank for a SHORT while... is that comfortable/healthy for adult Pygos? hardly!, will they survive? yes, no, everything can happen, just throw the dice... but keep in mind lack of space is related to aggresion, stress, stunted growth, lack of activity, illness...



CJPIRANHA said:


> This topic is like an overstocked tank! Lets see how many survive in the shoal.


Yeap, it reminds me one of the reasons i left P-Fury 4 years ago...


----------



## hastatus

I think in my opinion its an ego thing. We older members are sometimes looked at with scorn, not because we don't know what we are talking about, but they are intimidated that they are not the big kahuna. They want to so disperately be respected. They forget respect is earned.

The mentality I have seen here and other fish boards, the bigger fish and tanks you have that makes you an expert. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I've known guys that had huge aquariums (200 or more gallons) but could never keep a piranha alive to save them. Yet they were considered an expert.

When I was invited to come on the internet I was hesitant because I prefered to handle referrals from John Quinn at TFH and the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife. I knew if I came online there would be hobbyist that would find some reasons to resent my presence. But I stayed with it until one day I had enough. I just decided to read the forums instead of participating.

I was amazed at the time it took for science to be rooted out. I completely understand why Daniel (mr hannibal) stepped out too. Hopefully he will continue to post here and be an opefe representative long after im gone. That is my faith in him to stay true to the science.
.


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

I will


----------



## memento

Amazing how the same discussions continue over and over again...
And how some newbies (yeah Dolphin, like you...) think they know everything at once.

@Bruner : there is a large difference between conditioning and imprinting or recognition. The last word allready sais it - it requires cognitive processes. In humans we consider these "higher neural processes". The temporal lobe, the basal ganglia, the hippocampus and the cerebellum are areas considered as brain parts functioning toghether for memory storage. I never studied piranha brains, but I have strong doubt they have all these areas developped far enough to know any higher neural processes.
Conditioning however is mostly based in the amygdala, what almost every animal has. It's no more then an interaction between serotonin and another neuron.

It doesn't change perception of the fish, so you are still the bigger predator. For example or to compare, I can handle my spiders and snakes, but that doesn't change the fact that when they feel threatened, they will hit me.
So do piranhas - they may be conditioned, but not less skittish.

@Dolphin : how can you say what can be done "easily" or not ?
I can easily fit 6 people in my toilet, but that doesn't mean they will be happy. If you have kept 30 piranhas in a beerglass does not mean it can be done "easily".
Compare it to prisons - the more people you put in one cell, the higher the risk gets that they will eventually attack each other.


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

Dolphinswin said:


> R you on your period dude
> 
> Primetime was right unlike you


I was unaware there was a set amount of fish per tank? No I just keep coming into this thread and seeing you x2 every post, almost like you already knew that information? All im saying is You could keep more than 3 cariba in a 125. Id do 3 cariba in a 75gal
[/quote]
When you x2 it doesnt mean you already knew that info, i times 2 when i read their post and agree with them because what they posted sounds right.

Your saying squeeze 8 friggen cariba in a 125gl... Come on man. Even if there was canabalism youd most likely end up with 6 and thats still too much+ that how "theyll kill off thwmselves " is just a waste of life and money


----------



## zippa

Where is hollywood when you need him? Want to talk overstocking you need to speak to the master. No disrespect to hannibal or hastus what so ever.


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

I see no difference... just because it "works" for Hollywood doesn't mean it will work for others... especially when it fails all the time... anyway, don't you think a fish is suppose to live in a river deserves the biggest tank possible?


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

I've seen hundreds of Caribas cramped in a small puddle during dry season (just before it dries and all the fish die)... to replicate that is just weird...


----------



## BRUNER247

That's part of their life cycle. That overstocked & drying up puddle might be part of what triggers them to spawning. Being on the verge of death n then rain brings life back to everything. But wtf do I know I'm just a hobbiest.


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

Yeap, that is part of their life cycle in the wild, but there's no need to replicate it in your home aquaria... they require the biggest tank possible, simply as that...


----------



## dcp5082

BRUNER247 said:


> That's part of their life cycle. That overstocked & drying up puddle might be part of what triggers them to spawning. Being on the verge of death n then rain brings life back to everything. But wtf do I know I'm just a hobbiest.


we all are, important to remember that, fish keeping "experience" increases the chance for success, but certainly doesn't guarantee it


----------



## BRUNER247

I'd have to say hundreds in a drying up puddle & about to die is not like 2-3 in a 75g for a year, or 5-6 in a 6' tank for a year or two is nothing like that. Tank fish get fed regularly, no searching for food, that tank isn't drying up, water isnt turning sour(shouldn't be anyhow).


----------



## Smoke

I'd like to just say that I certainly appreciate all the advice and input from the senior members of this forum. I think alot of members read and appreciate it as well, so don't let opposing opinions inhibit you from speaking your minds please.


----------



## BRUNER247

Personally I think its hilarious you all arguing about stock in a given tank(75g & 125g) with nothing ever said about filtration or water change schedule. I understand cariba can get big & would require a bigger tank down the road. 6pages about this "overstocking"tank size" & nothing about filtration.


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

BRUNER247 said:


> I'd have to say hundreds in a drying up puddle & about to die is not like 2-3 in a 75g for a year, or 5-6 in a 6' tank for a year or two is nothing like that. Tank fish get fed regularly, no searching for food, that tank isn't drying up, water isnt turning sour(shouldn't be anyhow).


Sure no one is starving their Ps on their homes (that would be cruel and bizarre) but lack of space has consecuences on fish (stress, aggression, stunted growth, lack of activity, among others, even illness), some of them permanent, irreversible (when the fish die for instance)... it's hard to believe someone is arguing this fish should live in the biggest tank possible...


----------



## memento

BRUNER247 said:


> Personally I think its hilarious you all arguing about stock in a given tank(75g & 125g) with nothing ever said about filtration or water change schedule. I understand cariba can get big & would require a bigger tank down the road. 6pages about this "overstocking"tank size" & nothing about filtration.


I don't recall the topicstarter asking for filtration advise...


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

Great filtration and proper water changes will decrease (not eliminate) the consequences of overstocking... you need it all (tank space, great filtration, water changes, proper tank temp, proper feeding, tank current, surface agitation, etc)... those are concurrent factors for proper piranha care...


----------



## hastatus

*Bruner,* Arnold (hollywood) and I remain friends and still talk too each other. I've also been to his home and seen his "overstocked" tanks. He no longer keeps piranha any more. It was too much stress for him worrying that his fish would kill each other. The next I speak to Arnold i'll be sure to tell him you are using his name to justify your method of keeping piranha.

*meant zippa


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

hastatus said:


> Bruner, Arnold (hollywood) and I remain friends and still talk too each other. I've also been to his home and seen his "overstocked" tanks. He no longer keeps piranha any more. It was too much stress for him worrying that his fish would kill each other. The next I speak to Arnold i'll be sure to tell him you are using his name to justify your method of keeping piranha.


----------



## hastatus

Smoke: its frustrating because you can find page after page of these discussions that have been going on before pfury was founded going back to 1995. You get a hobby that's kept piranha for less than 10 years and that makes them think they have the answers. At my age im still learning and would not be foolish to think I know it all. My concern has always been to give the fish the best. Because they are in an unnatural environment. Your home is not the amazon and bruner you are treading close to that mentality.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

"I believe they should get the biggest tank possible"

I agree. But for some people the biggest tank possible is a 125g.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

I personally don't think 4-5 Cariba in a 125g is over stocking. Especially before the fish reach 12"

If your buying them as babies 4-6 would be good in there for a few years..


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

6 pygos in a 75g. I am a bad person


----------



## BRUNER247

Yep your a bad keeper JZ. I am too don't leave me out. 9pygos in a 135gal.


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

Laugh my buttons off


----------



## AKSkirmish

Intresting answers-Sad thread....


----------



## primetime3wise

why is this so difficult for some people to comprehend?

i just had x3 10" cariba in a 75g. they did fine. any larger though and no way would i keep them in that tank. i also had a solo rhom in the same 75g for a very short while as a holding tank, but there is no way he would do ok in that tank for an extended period, and he was 13"+. how can anyone say that, if you had reds, cariba, terns, that got to be 11, 12"+ would do ok together in a 75g or 125g. i had the rhom in the 125g for a long time, any larger and he would barely be able to turn around and be active. so, yes you can do it, but will they be that comfortable, active...no, esp. if you hope to have them get close to their max size.

so, yes you can do it for a while, but by no means is it remotely ideal.


----------



## zippa

hastatus said:


> *Bruner,* Arnold (hollywood) and I remain friends and still talk too each other. I've also been to his home and seen his "overstocked" tanks. He no longer keeps piranha any more. It was too much stress for him worrying that his fish would kill each other. The next I speak to Arnold i'll be sure to tell him you are using his name to justify your method of keeping piranha.
> 
> *meant zippa


 I do not recall using his name to "justify" anything. I simply stated he should be involved in this discussion as he was the one member here I felt had the most experience keeping overstocked tanks with success. Or perhaps I am wrong??


----------



## hastatus

Your wrong.


----------



## zippa

He didn't have success keeping overstocked tanks? I am not looking for arguments I seriously thought he had successfully kept large #'s together for extended periods of time?


----------



## hastatus

Depends on what you call "over extended time". Certainly not a life time ( over 10 or more years ). Average for hollywood was roughly 2 years. I don't see that as successful.


----------



## zippa

2 yrs with the number of fish he kept per inch of tank in this hobby to me is success. Not many ppl in the hobby keep the same fish for 10+ yrs anyway.Either way to each their own. This is a timeless debate that will never end. I see both sides and side with each in it's own merit.


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing...


----------



## BRUNER247

primetime3wise said:


> why is this so difficult for some people to comprehend?
> 
> i just had x3 10" cariba in a 75g. they did fine. any larger though and no way would i keep them in that tank. i also had a solo rhom in the same 75g for a very short while as a holding tank, but there is no way he would do ok in that tank for an extended period, and he was 13"+. how can anyone say that, if you had reds, cariba, terns, that got to be 11, 12"+ would do ok together in a 75g or 125g. i had the rhom in the 125g for a long time, any larger and he would barely be able to turn around and be active. so, yes you can do it, but will they be that comfortable, active...no, esp. if you hope to have them get close to their max size.
> 
> so, yes you can do it for a while, but by no means is it remotely ideal.


What you can't house them in there! Bad keeper, bad primetime! Padded room for you! Lol.


----------



## hastatus

We are certainly getting a good look at the insides of a true piranha keeper and those that only see the fish as a commodity of no value.


----------



## BRUNER247

You're hilarious! Glad you came back we needed a good comedian as DTs been slacking. Commodity with no value? You have to be kidding! Don't even try to make it out like I don't care about my fish you pompous ass. No where will you see I have any of my fish for sale.I've given rbp away to a few members here. & other than baby rbp, you couldn't buy my fish.my piranha/fish get just as good as care as anyone here. Where's all your pictures of your setups over the years Frank? Didn't Jim Smith supposedly spawn cariba in a 55gal? sh*t he must not of valued his fish neither.shame on you primetime & jz for not caring about your fish. Shame on me for having 9pygos in a 135gal. Shame on us all. Except you of course Frank. You would never do such a thing. Shame on the venders also for keeping the fish in such small tank(some barely big enough to turn around). I'm done here. This threads a joke.


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

In my opinion rules and guidelines are created by average hobbiests for those too ignorant to be able to form their own opinions on the subject. A guidline like 3-4 piranhas per 75g is a decent guidline but people have to be aware there are not absolute facts that must be adhered to by everybody.

If you want 200lbs of driftwood in the tank you need a larger tank then the guidline says. If you want 5 fish in a 75g you need a better filter. If you want to grow some monsters over the next 10 years you may want one fish in the same tank others use to keep four.

For the most part in this hobby a tank for "life" usually means under 5 years. If you are seriously dedicated to growing some monster sized fish then you can't stricktly adhere to guidelines that were created pretty much to care for a few fish up to a couple years old before they either die or get sold.

In closing if you have the knowlege to think for yourself to some degree you should be able to care for the fish based on your own personal ethics and what you are trying to acheive with the fish in your care whether your goal is a large shoal, growing a monster, getting them to have amazing colour or sucsseed in any other of your objectives. If you beleive this hobby is entierly black and white, right and wrong with no gray area or options in the middle then I suppose these people will be stuck forever listening to generic rules that are merely adequet in a wide variety of situations. Adequte yes though in my opinion if you want to really sucsseed you must setup or at least be willing to adjust your setup as a whole so that you can acheive your specific goals. From what I see the most sucsessful people in this hobby as well as the least sucsessful are those who stray from generic guidlines and rules. Some will thrive while others will flop. A guidline is deffinitly a good tool until one reaches a level of knowlege where they can leave them and base their fish keeping on their own beleifs and not what somebody else told them was right and wrong. Getting back to the point if you want 5 average caribe in a 75g for life (which is usually only a few years) it can work. If you want a shoal of extreamly healthy and robust caribe I doubt some standard75g setup will be of use to you. Generic guidlines will yeild generic results. Experience often allows certain hobbiests to acheive above standard results as they most likely have a fish keeping style based on the norm in addition to their own philosophy and set of hobbiest ethics.


----------



## bob351

What debate... this is people who stuff piranhas like sardines vs people who want to provide the most space they can possible for their fish... you can keep whatever you want in any size tank but at the end of the day IMO its on the same page as animal cruelty take a fish and restrict it to 4 lengths of swimming space and barely enough room to turn, how can you call yourself a "hobbyist" IMO.


----------



## primetime3wise

BRUNER247 said:


> why is this so difficult for some people to comprehend?
> 
> i just had x3 10" cariba in a 75g. they did fine. any larger though and no way would i keep them in that tank. i also had a solo rhom in the same 75g for a very short while as a holding tank, but there is no way he would do ok in that tank for an extended period, and he was 13"+. how can anyone say that, if you had reds, cariba, terns, that got to be 11, 12"+ would do ok together in a 75g or 125g. i had the rhom in the 125g for a long time, any larger and he would barely be able to turn around and be active. so, yes you can do it, but will they be that comfortable, active...no, esp. if you hope to have them get close to their max size.
> 
> so, yes you can do it for a while, but by no means is it remotely ideal.


What you can't house them in there! Bad keeper, bad primetime! Padded room for you! Lol.
[/quote]

wtf, i was agreeing more with frank and mr. hannibal...this thread is a clusterf**k, lol.

yes, i've had pygos in a 125g, but from my experience i would be looking to upgrade to a 180g if i still had the cariba, and is why i am looking for one for my geryi.

and do we even need to argue if we had piraya?


----------



## hastatus

Bruner you crack me up.


----------



## hastatus

Cluster: I agree with you. All I am saying is (and backed up by science and fish husbandry) if you want a stunted fish, keep them crowded. The rule is meant only for those that want the most out of their fish.


----------



## zippa

It's to bad we lost so many old pictures during the upgrade.


----------



## hastatus

> zippa
> 
> Posted Today, 05:13 PM
> It's to bad we lost so many old pictures during the upgrade.


All that does is show a moment in time. Adds nothing to this conversation IMO.


----------



## memento

zippa said:


> It's to bad we lost so many old pictures during the upgrade.


It's too bad we lost so many decent members due to discussions like this, with all the self-proclaimed experts.


----------



## zippa

Post #43 and #44

http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?/topic/72194-more-of-my-opefe-fishies/page__st__40


----------



## hastatus

Yah what's your point?


----------



## Mr. Hannibal




----------



## hastatus

Daniel he's looking at this and making an issue of it to support his claims:



> How many pygos? Probably 10-12 never counted them. I keep adding from time to time and giving away to local kids. I'd better qualify that; the small pygos. I keep the bigger ones including the 3 ternetzi's.












He needs to take his time and read what I wrote. These fish were give away
s and they did not stay in these conditions for any great length of time, probably a couple or so weeks.

Evidently, he's trying to say I'm contradicting myself.


----------



## bob351

This thread


----------



## MFNRyan

I think the biggest problem is you cant get a simple answer. An when you do get a simple answer someone has to come hound the F**K out of you for giving it. You don't consider 2 years successful that's fine. My point an question was can I keep six F**KING Pygo's in a 125g for about 2 years. I think some people are way to scientific an to hard on lame facts. No for life this isn't the best possible set up for the fish. For two years it's fine. I got my 125g with 3 in the tank and its empty. 3 more will not put a dent in it. I wanted to know can I get by with this for a little while. For fish as a hobby to learn from. I didn't want these fish an this set up to last for life. An even though I say that 100 times, people still say you have to have 20-40 gallons per fish or they will die and yuou suck at keeping them and your cruel to the fish. Well I have about 450gallons worth of filtration on this tank, I don't feed live food an I don't leave food in it. From what I have seen from the average fish keeper I can easily get by with 6 if not 8 pygos in this tank for two years. Like I said if the fish get too big or to violent towards each other then I will go buy another tank. NO big deal. According to the nat geo channel fish in the wild seldom make it past 3 years, due to natural predators, lack of food, drought, or theory of the strongest survive the pack. So if I take 6 fish and I put them in a clean aquarium for 2 years, with adequate food supply, do you really think I have deprived them of anything??? I think some things on here get really over analyzed. An it is a little frustrating when your new to something an you get these way overkill answers. I want a down to earth answer. Yeah its hard to say if two fish are going to get a long, it's hard to say if one fish is going to bully the tank, with P's it's very unstable, I don't want an answer to cover a decade. I just want to know if it will work for a few years. Not everything is black an white I know but not everything is so damn complicated either man. These fish have tons of room in this stinkin tank. I listened to what certain people on here said and what I have is overkill that takes up my entire wall! I easily could have got by with a smaller tank. That's ok though, they will grow into it, in a year or so!!!!!! Big time overkill and my women has been chewing my left cheek off for getting it and spending 1980 bucks on the set up and it looks empty, all because of some crazy answers backed by science or something! I'm getting three more fish if not more and I will keep you guys on how this works out and how crowded they are or are not.


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

Godd damn!!!^^^^


----------



## hastatus

Channel catfish are not piranhas. Totally different species and conditions. Its well documented piranhas can live 20 or more years in the aquarium given suitable conditions. But since you don't care about that why are you even posting?


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

You still dont get it kid..... things are aometimes better left alone. I you feel confident in your idea quit bickering with people who are farr more knowledgeable and do what YOU gotta do. I just feel bad for the fish so ill just sit back and watch


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

If you want a straight simple answer to your question just read what i told you several posts before: Caribas are fast growers (given the right circumstances) so IME 6 small Pygos (including some Caribas) will work in your 125g tank for a year or so... then you may need to upgrade... good luck on your Cariba tank, you will enjoy it!


----------



## Trigga

Mixed shoals are sweet but if you have piraya beware of cannabilism


----------



## scent troll

RedBelly11 said:


> My point an question was can I keep six F**KING Pygo's in a 125g for about 2 years.


YES

i successfully kept 6 pygos in a 90 gallon tank for the same period of time. everyone here has this golden rule for piranha because they dont want to be called out by some other hobbyist for not giving their fish the best home. the fact is, yes, you can fit them in there and chances of anything bad happening are slim to none with good caretaking. 
it seems like every time i check a new thread here the suggested tank space for a piranha goes up by 20 gallons. 
a 125g tank is a great sized tank. you could fit more then 6 in there in my opinion. so yes...youll do just fine.


----------



## Dolphinswin

piranha-freak101 said:


> My point an question was can I keep six F**KING Pygo's in a 125g for about 2 years.


YES

i successfully kept 6 pygos in a 90 gallon tank for the same period of time. everyone here has this golden rule for piranha because they dont want to be called out by some other hobbyist for not giving their fish the best home. the fact is, yes, you can fit them in there and chances of anything bad happening are slim to none with good caretaking. 
it seems like every time i check a new thread here the suggested tank space for a piranha goes up by 20 gallons. 
a 125g tank is a great sized tank. you could fit more then 6 in there in my opinion. so yes...youll do just fine.
[/quote]
Agree


----------



## duster1971

Ok this whole thing got way off track lmao. So back to the original question at hand and the way it used to be around here.

If you want to house these fish you will need an upgrade later on (you know the risk of doing this). What works for some may not work for all. I'm not saying go out and over stock the sh*t out of your tank. 
What we all shuld be doing is looking at the condition behaviior and all around happyness of our fish correct?

So now can we stop quoting and bashin each other and get on with our lives lmao simple as that.

And to all those argueing science and experiance. 
It shuld be painefuly obviouse that science wuld not exist without experiance. And both are major factors in the hobby not one more important than the other.

What truly matters in this here is do you have the best intrest of the fish in mind and plan on doing all that you can to keep them happy and healthy and op from a lot of your responces I see you do. If you want to give it a try by all means give it a shot take what info and oppinions there are in this bloody mess of a post and use it keep your tanks open if there is agression amongst the fish such as bites be ready to act and move them to differant tanks.

One other thing. The whole letting natural selection happen in our tanks is not bad keeping it is nature in our tanks (not saying our tanks are similar to the amazon in any way) and it is the loss of the hobbyist if they so chose to beat them selves up about it and learn nuthung there loss now if they take tthat experiance and learn then the hobby has hope after all.

I am done lmao.


----------



## memento

RedBelly11 said:


> This frank guy is knowledgable, he comes across very smart on his website, in the thread he comes off as an asshole who's a damn know it all. Can I ask what makes him so much more knowledgable that other people? What significant breedings has he accomplished? What new species has he founded? He's just a regular male who studied piranha and took a few trips to S.A.


1. 50 years of experience, opposed to your 50 days of experience.
2. The fact that he realises that science should be the base for each hobby.
3. The fact that he learned enough about these fish to realise we don't know anything, opposed to guys like you who believe they've seen it all.
4. The fact that he did several experiments but never got that stupid to believe that was representing a species behavior, but just the behavior of 1 group in 1 setting.
5. The fact that so far, I know of only 1 question I directed at him that he could nót answer straight away.
6. The fact that he put up with guys like you for a very long time, while I got fed up in only 2 years.

Need more ?

Now you - what makes you so damn smart that you think you can oppose him ?
What makes you so damn smart you think you know anything about piranhas ? What in fact, do you think you réally know ? Before getting disrespectful to the few on here who actually dó know a bit about them, what do yóu have accomplished except having become the biggest joke of the forum ?


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

RedBelly11 said:


> My point an question was can I keep six F**KING Pygo's in a 125g for about 2 years.


If you want 6 farily average fish then go ahead with a standard 6 per 125g. You can start with 50 1" fish if you so desire and sell them off as you need more space. If you plan on growing dinner plates for fish then I would suggest less then 6 in a 125g or upgrade as soon as you start to need the space. With adequet filtration you will be fine keeping 6 in a 125g for 2 years before upgrading. You could keep them all in a 125g for life but be aware they will have more potential in a tank such as a 180g.


----------



## primetime3wise

memento said:


> This frank guy is knowledgable, he comes across very smart on his website, in the thread he comes off as an asshole who's a damn know it all. Can I ask what makes him so much more knowledgable that other people? What significant breedings has he accomplished? What new species has he founded? He's just a regular male who studied piranha and took a few trips to S.A.


1. 50 years of experience, opposed to your 50 days of experience.
2. The fact that he realises that science should be the base for each hobby.
3. The fact that he learned enough about these fish to realise we don't know anything, opposed to guys like you who believe they've seen it all.
4. The fact that he did several experiments but never got that stupid to believe that was representing a species behavior, but just the behavior of 1 group in 1 setting.
5. The fact that so far, I know of only 1 question I directed at him that he could nót answer straight away.
6. The fact that he put up with guys like you for a very long time, while I got fed up in only 2 years.

Need more ?

Now you - what makes you so damn smart that you think you can oppose him ?
What makes you so damn smart you think you know anything about piranhas ? What in fact, do you think you réally know ? Before getting disrespectful to the few on here who actually dó know a bit about them, what do yóu have accomplished except having become the biggest joke of the forum ?
[/quote]

exactly. someone wise realizes there is still so much to learn, it's a process. then other people come in with a few months experience and think they know it all. kind of ironic. i know some of you guys are really young, but still...


----------



## hastatus

Primetime and memento thank you for your support. Yes some of these members commenting are younger than my grandchildren. To be that young again and know everything. I wish I could go back.

Cluster one summed it up. Do what you want, its your fish.

In my closing of this ridiculous, full of hate thread, if you truly want to learn about piranhas and have better results than keeping them contact me via my hastatus messenger name at pfury or my email address at [email protected] unlike some of you my real name is open for all to see. I don't hide behind an anonymous board name as if I were hiding something.

Best fishes and good luck.

PS: and you folks wonder why hollywood and other older well known people have left fury and other fish boards.


----------



## AKSkirmish

Sorry to hear this Frank(I have been trying to change this place the best I could-I get a shut door on every avenue I go)
My respect

AK


----------



## memento

hastatus said:


> Simply because the difference between hobbyist and breeder is very easy to spot. Sadly a lot of breeders have been chased out of here from people like yourself Dolphin ma boy. When you have been in the hobby for years and trying something new at expense and effort and some little shitheel rides your ass about it can't be done cause they have red bellies for two weeks and they know everything(sound familiar?) it becomes discouraging. So you want to know why there is not as many breeders and NONE of the old school guru's of this hobby here at this site anymore ......take a good long look in the mirror bud!


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

Bob351 please show them the pcture u showed me in pm


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

Yeap, he asked for "some expert advise" and now he doesn't likes what he got...


----------



## bob351

piranha-freak101 said:


> Bob351 please show them the pcture u showed me in pm










i already sent it to dolphinswim and said try stuffing these into a 75g

but what the hell since its requested... 4 full grown caribe in a 180g I could not imagine having them in a 75 or even a 125 they need the turning room, these are not arowana that are snakelike and can turn on a dime...


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

thank you very much Bob351,

OP were not kidding, your caribas will most likely get this large with proper care


----------



## the_w8

Those are beasts. True beauties! They sure do take up alotta that 180G IMO







If you think you can "overstock' those into 75G good luck









I think many members especially newer members don't take into affect actually how big caribes do actually get.


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

the_w8 said:


> Those are beasts. True beauties! They sure do take up alotta that 180G IMO


and to think i wanted some piraya


----------



## MFNRyan

Never said i didn't want expert advise, I have mentioned from the start I have no problem spliting them up once they are bigger or going with a bigger tank, no problem at all. Reality is this is going to take a very long time and I may never be able to reach this point, who knows, for right now they have plenty of room. Bob has been very helpful for me and he showed me that picture in a pm. I don't plan on keeping 6 that size in a 125g. Maybe half that, I would move them to a bigger tank. It's hard for a beginner when one guy is telling you something and another guy is way off on the same quote. I'm going to get my Cariba today, then maybe a gold spilo or a sanchezi, I'm not sure yet which I would rather have. I'll decide when I see the fish for myself.


----------



## Piranha-Freak101

Dont listen to dolphinswin lol :laugh:

Go with a dirty sanchezii


----------



## memento

RedBelly11 said:


> Some expert advice would be nice in clearing this up for me.


Yes you did









Nevermind though. Topics like this always go different directions.

Edit:
I realise this entire discussion may seem confusing and strange to you, don't take that personal or get discouraged by it. It's just that some topics always end up in a situation that has been a problem for Fury for at least as I have been reading here.
There is always a small group of "veterans" who have a lot of experience and / or knowledge, and a big group of people who just have entered the hobby and think they know a lot about it.
Unfortunately respect gets lost, and more and more of these "veterans" leave the forums because it gets useless to have the same discussions over and over again, just to be mouthed off by little kids who don't seem to be able to debate with any decent arguments.

It took me only two years to get fed up with that and actually decided to leave, but somehow these forums are somewhat addictive. I had my nickname changed however, for I did no longer want my present nick on other forums, to be connected to a forum that gets flushed down the drain over and over again by self-proclaimed experts, big mouthed kids or any other ignorant fool who thinks he's seen it all.

I hope this explains a little what happened to this discussion you started. At least from my point of view. Best advise I can give you - there will always be opposed opinions regarding piranhas. Simply because there is so much we still do not know.
If you get confronted with these contradicting discussions, just look for the few who argue instead of just call others wrong based on their little experience.
There are a lot who pretend to know a lot, and a few he have enough knowledge to realise we don't know sh*t.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Hey bob what are the dimensions of that tank. Looks more like a 125 to me


----------



## Mr. Hannibal

memento said:


> Some expert advice would be nice in clearing this up for me.


Yes you did









Nevermind though. Topics like this always go different directions.

Edit:
I realise this entire discussion may seem confusing and strange to you, don't take that personal or get discouraged by it. It's just that some topics always end up in a situation that has been a problem for Fury for at least as I have been reading here.
There is always a small group of "veterans" who have a lot of experience and / or knowledge, and a big group of people who just have entered the hobby and think they know a lot about it.
Unfortunately respect gets lost, and more and more of these "veterans" leave the forums because it gets useless to have the same discussions over and over again, just to be mouthed off by little kids who don't seem to be able to debate with any decent arguments.

It took me only two years to get fed up with that and actually decided to leave, but somehow these forums are somewhat addictive. I had my nickname changed however, for I did no longer want my present nick on other forums, to be connected to a forum that gets flushed down the drain over and over again by self-proclaimed experts, big mouthed kids or any other ignorant fool who thinks he's seen it all.

I hope this explains a little what happened to this discussion you started. At least from my point of view. Best advise I can give you - there will always be opposed opinions regarding piranhas. Simply because there is so much we still do not know.
If you get confronted with these contradicting discussions, just look for the few who argue instead of just call others wrong based on their little experience.
There are a lot who pretend to know a lot, and a few he have enough knowledge to realise we don't know sh*t.
[/quote]

That's right... this kind of topics tend to be very controversial (for some kind of people) over and over again since P-Fury was born... i've been keeping piranhas since ever and i'm still learning a little thing every other day (and that's the interesting thing about Ps and what keeps me around). I base my recommendations on my personal experience (especially my mistakes) and what i've learned from others all this years... it's sad some disrespectful members (most of them are not around any more thanks God) were responsible of some important loses (of great members) in the past... there is no perfect answer to certain questions but experience has taught us what most likely will work, people just should know better...

All i know is 5 years in the future i will be keeping (and still learning from) Ps while most of the people who wrote on this thread won't... i will always try to give my best advise...


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## bob351

Johnny_Zanni said:


> Hey bob what are the dimensions of that tank. Looks more like a 125 to me


it says 180 above the picture


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## hastatus

To: RedBelly11 (and any other person interested)

I am here solely for the scientific view of piranhas. It is not stuff I make up, but comes from extensive conversations both in person and through email from world authorities on piranhas from the U.S. and South America. It doesn't all come from outdated piranha books. My last input in published books was with David Schleser's book. Most of you that were then know the pains it took to put it together. Some of you on PFURY even contributed photos of their piranhas for inclusion in this book. None of this would have been possible if it were not the bridge created between OPEFE and the science community.

Just some short history over "vicious vitriol" from previous fish boards and this one in particular. Back in the 1990's, everyone believed S. niger to be a distinct valid species. It took several years of arguing from the scientific side that S. niger was not a valid name, but a synonym of the well recognized S. rhombeus. You have no clue how much hate was thrown on me personally by a few members. Simply because they felt compelled to prove they knew more than science. All based on what they saw in their home aquariums and old books on piranhas. Today, even museums (public exhibits of piranha) have caught up thanks in large part to material from OPEFE. You have no idea how many times I have been thanked personally by scientist for helping to spread the word on piranhas. Yet on the otherhand, if it were not for scientists helping me gather information for hobbyists, none of this would have been possible.

In the last few years, again the same tired old argument similar to S. niger surfaces about Ternetzi. I won't bore you with the details. Its already pinned at OPEFE and at PFURY Sponsor forum. The same tired ignorant trolls are still trying their best to disprove not only the science but me personally. They don't have a rats ass knowledge of what they are talking about. Only their hardheaded opinions. Based on what? What dealers tell them and their own personal observations in the home aquarium.

So yes, I'm tired of rehashing that old crap. I'm tired of explaining over and over again why science doesn't view their opinions with any validity. But its never enough for some people that can't handle the science. They have to be right no matter what.

I make no apology for my defending the science. I have earned the respect. Those that don't want to give it as deserved can kiss my ass. That simple.

For the rest of you that do take science into consideration when keeping piranhas, you alone will be the ones that can educate the morons that just don't seem to get it.

What does all of this have to do with the original topic? Its a well known scientific fact that fish kept in close quarters such as a lake, pond, or even an aquarium can lead to diseases, parasite problems, stunted grow. Along with many other problems not covered here. Filtration helps, but it is not the end all or cure all.


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## Piranha-Freak101




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## Johnny_Zanni

bob351 said:


> Hey bob what are the dimensions of that tank. Looks more like a 125 to me


it says 180 above the picture















[/quote]

96x18x24?

The width is not the same as the height.... A standard 180 is 72x24x24 meaning they are equal...


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## Piranha-Freak101

Johnny_Zanni said:


> Hey bob what are the dimensions of that tank. Looks more like a 125 to me


it says 180 above the picture















[/quote]

96x18x24?

The width is not the same as the height.... A standard 180 is 72x24x24 meaning they are equal...
[/quote]

Shoot! ....... Shoot!


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## the_w8

hastatus said:


> To: RedBelly11 (and any other person interested)
> 
> I am here solely for the scientific view of piranhas. It is not stuff I make up, but comes from extensive conversations both in person and through email from world authorities on piranhas from the U.S. and South America. It doesn't all come from outdated piranha books. My last input in published books was with David Schleser's book. Most of you that were then know the pains it took to put it together. Some of you on PFURY even contributed photos of their piranhas for inclusion in this book. None of this would have been possible if it were not the bridge created between OPEFE and the science community.
> 
> Just some short history over "vicious vitriol" from previous fish boards and this one in particular. Back in the 1990's, everyone believed S. niger to be a distinct valid species. It took several years of arguing from the scientific side that S. niger was not a valid name, but a synonym of the well recognized S. rhombeus. You have no clue how much hate was thrown on me personally by a few members. Simply because they felt compelled to prove they knew more than science. All based on what they saw in their home aquariums and old books on piranhas. Today, even museums (public exhibits of piranha) have caught up thanks in large part to material from OPEFE. You have no idea how many times I have been thanked personally by scientist for helping to spread the word on piranhas. Yet on the otherhand, if it were not for scientists helping me gather information for hobbyists, none of this would have been possible.
> 
> In the last few years, again the same tired old argument similar to S. niger surfaces about Ternetzi. I won't bore you with the details. Its already pinned at OPEFE and at PFURY Sponsor forum. The same tired ignorant trolls are still trying their best to disprove not only the science but me personally. They don't have a rats ass knowledge of what they are talking about. Only their hardheaded opinions. Based on what? What dealers tell them and their own personal observations in the home aquarium.
> 
> So yes, I'm tired of rehashing that old crap. I'm tired of explaining over and over again why science doesn't view their opinions with any validity. But its never enough for some people that can't handle the science. They have to be right no matter what.
> 
> I make no apology for my defending the science. I have earned the respect. Those that don't want to give it as deserved can kiss my ass. That simple.
> 
> For the rest of you that do take science into consideration when keeping piranhas, you alone will be the ones that can educate the morons that just don't seem to get it.
> 
> What does all of this have to do with the original topic? Its a well known scientific fact that fish kept in close quarters such as a lake, pond, or even an aquarium can lead to diseases, parasite problems, stunted grow. Along with many other problems not covered here. Filtration helps, but it is not the end all or cure all.


Frank i want to personally thank you for all you contributed to this site. Alot of your info I read on here and the OPEFE site when I started back a lil before 2002-2003, helped me gain the knowledge of piranhas I know to this day. Also on how to properly care and house them. It truly has been alot of help and will continue to be alot of help.

I agree with you 100% on the scientific part of the hobby. If it weren't for the scientific part of this hobby and all the trials done this hobby definitely wouldn't be where it is today. IMO your one of the foundations of this hobby and all the studies you've done and I applaud you for your accomplishments







......On a side note you will never be able to avoid the young arrogant kids that try to disprove points cause they feel they know everything in the books there is to know about P's because they've owned P's for a few weeks/months. I also seen many good members leave due to same reasons and that will continue to go on. Don't let this garbage bother you even though its hard not to. I enjoy bouncing around on ur site every now and then refreshing up on certain reads. Thanks again and sorry for derailing the thread.


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## hastatus

> _Frank i want to personally thank you for all you contributed to this site. Alot of your info I read on here and the OPEFE site when I started back a lil before 2002-2003, helped me gain the knowledge of piranhas I know to this day. Also on how to properly care and house them. It truly has been alot of help and will continue to be alot of help._
> 
> *Thank you, it really means a lot to me to read that.*
> 
> I agree with you 100% on the scientific part of the hobby. If it weren't for the scientific part of this hobby and all the trials done this hobby definitely wouldn't be where it is today. IMO your one of the foundations of this hobby and all the studies you've done and I applaud you for your accomplishments
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ......
> 
> _On a side note you will never be able to avoid the young arrogant kids that try to disprove points cause they feel they know everything in the books there is to know about P's because they've owned P's for a few weeks/months._
> 
> *So true. At my age, you just want to turn them over and give them a good hard spanking. Something that you can't do any more lol*
> 
> I also seen many good members leave due to same reasons and that will continue to go on. Don't let this garbage bother you even though its hard not to. I enjoy bouncing around on ur site every now and then refreshing up on certain reads. Thanks again and sorry for derailing the thread.


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## bob351

Johnny_Zanni said:


> Hey bob what are the dimensions of that tank. Looks more like a 125 to me


it says 180 above the picture















[/quote]

96x18x24?

The width is not the same as the height.... A standard 180 is 72x24x24 meaning they are equal...
[/quote]
you need a picuture with a measuring tape







its a standard 180


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## MFNRyan

Memento, Both quotes you posted are from me asking for expert advise. The top one says I never said I DIDN"T want expert advice the botttom one is me asking for expert advise. both are the same statement? Secondly I did not mean any disrespect to anyone. But I feel that 6 four inch fish is not to much for the 125g right now. The tank is more then big enough. I am fully aware they can not live life here. I just wanted to know can I get by with this for a few years. Even now my tank is very empty, with the six. I am hoping they grow kind of fast lol. I'm afraid I may be over feeding them though since I give 5 shrimp every other day or some raw fish. The Cariba have made the tank much more active and I'm very happy with what I have. What will probably happen is the 3 reds will go to another tank or owners and I'll keep the 3 cariba here. Also PIranha freak I did go with the purple sanchezi. Glad i did I really like him. Looking Into a solo fish to put in the 55g. May go with Gibbus, ruby red, or Manny. I know the Manny will outgrow the 55g an have been told they are super hard to care for (unexplained sudden death) so I may just wait a bit. Make sure the fish I have go well for awhile.

Again sorry I got mad just seemed I was getting a lot of off the wall answers. Seems it is possible to keep 6 pygo in a 125g as long as they are juvenile fish and it's not a long term set up. Is this correct??


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## Mr. Hannibal

Correct!


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## MFNRyan

Thank hannibal, Super happy with the Cariba, glad I took your advice on getting this type of fish


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## Guest

This thread should be pinned.
Gives newer p keepers insight into who to listen to for correct information and who to avoid.









Got any pics RedBelly11 of the new Cariba?


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## hastatus

> Again sorry I got mad just seemed I was getting a lot of off the wall answers.


The important thing to remember is do some research into your question. I know it seems like a lot of time to spend. But in the long run you will be much better for it. And yes you will get many different answers to the same question. Which is where doing background checks on those advising you comes into play.


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## MFNRyan

I agree, but you get the same thing, some websites say you can put your piranha with any fish as long as its well fed!! I have gone to your site a lot Frank, but like i say... even on the net you can find all kinds of misleading info. That's why I rely on person experience. I was up until 4am looking up fish and trying to decide which would be the best solo fish for my 55g an all I did was go in circles! LOL

Here are some pictures of my new fish, my Cariba and my Purple Sanchezi


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## Mr. Hannibal

Great looking Ps, congrats on your new fish... just remember, Caribas are not Nattereri, they tend to be more territorial and true cannibals when juveniles so you should keep a close eye on their tank... Best of luck with your new Ps!


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## hastatus

Nice fish!

Ok I see what you are saying. But there is a big difference between a science-type web site (opefe) and other piranha web sites. Im not meaning forums like this. The way to know if a site is using science based info is look at the reference material they site. If they don't cite the literature to back them up as scientifically sound, then that to me raises questions.

For fish forums, piranha breeders in particular, all you have to do is learn to differentiate between those that breed fish for a living from those that get an occasional spawning from a single pair. That is not diminishing the achievement. It is simply enhancing the experience of those that have a number of years and successful multiple attempts with other species.

So you know only 2 species are predisposed to spawn in the home aquarium. Those are P nattereri and S maculatus. You can have crappy conditions in the aquarium and these two species will spawn if the conditions suit them.

Im not saying they are easy, they aren't, but chances are better with them than say P cariba or P piraya.


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## hastatus

Fast note: just got off the phone with Hollywood. He says the entire overstock aquariums is a mistake and wishes he had never started.


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## Mr. Hannibal

hastatus said:


> Fast note: just got off the phone with Hollywood. He says the entire overstock aquariums is a mistake and wishes he had never started.


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## bob351

RedBelly11 said:


> I agree, but you get the same thing, some websites say you can put your piranha with any fish as long as its well fed!! I have gone to your site a lot Frank, but like i say... even on the net you can find all kinds of misleading info. That's why I rely on person experience. I was up until 4am looking up fish and trying to decide which would be the best solo fish for my 55g an all I did was go in circles! LOL
> 
> Here are some pictures of my new fish, my Cariba and my Purple Sanchezi


Nice caribe you wont be disappointed have you gotten you water quality under control yet?


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## MFNRyan

Yeah I had a 125g set up an running with tetras in it. I put those guys in that tank. As for the 55g, it's still under construction lol. I now upgraded again on my filter. I have a cascade 1500 biofilter only, just as you suggested. I have the bio cubes in it, a bag that reduces nitrate and nitrite sponge and a scratchy filter, Floss, and charcoal. It does 200g filtration and 360GPH. I also got the whisper filter still going since it's media is more established. If there is anything else I need to do or can do to get this thing in order let me know. I'm still doing about 3 water changes a week in that tank too. I have 3 four inch cichlids and a Asian gar in the tank now. I'm hoping the new filter will get the tank under control then I'm getting rid of the cichlids an Asian gar and I'm putting either, Gibbus, Ruby Red, Or a baby Rhom since I hear these grow slowly. I also have a guy close to me that has a nice size Manny he would sell me. like the ruby red the most but don't want the tank to look empty like my 125g does. I'm not doing anything until I get the water under control though. maybe some advice on the best fish to go with based off of there reputation an growth, how hardy they are all of that would be nice. I may start a new thread on it when I get my tank in order.

Frank, I see exactly what you mean, it's hard to find good sites, kind of like TV. To much stuff out there that sounds very firm an has the look of a good source, but is actually garbage. I don't know that I want a spawning pair of fish more so, a active, colorful, nice looking fish, That I can watch grow into a huge nice looking fish then get old an die ha ha

Here they are the day I brought them home right before putting them in their new tank. Couldn't get a good pic because they were very active lol.


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## hastatus

When in doubt talk to the senior members they wont steer you wrong. Good luck. Beautiful cariba!


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## bob351

Looking good but i would get rid of the charcoal and the bag with nitrite and nitrate reducer personaly i think chemical filtration is a waste of money and can leach chems back into the tank when there full... load up more bio IMO







, the floss and spoge are great for mechanical filtration. Nice job hope you end up with some monsters in the not so distant future


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## bob351

Also if you don't replace the chem filtration constantly it will work against you and you will wonder why you cant get rid of nitrates ammonia ect... pretty much a big cash grab for the fish stores


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## Mr. Hannibal

Well, i just lost a 6" Cariba due to aggresion... you never know with this guys... They were 7 medium sized Caribas in a 185g tank... now they are 6...


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## Piranha-Freak101

Very true^

Nice fish man !!


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## MFNRyan

Bob:
Ok The guy at the store told me the filter was 100% bio. lol stupid sales men. SO what should I put to replace the charcoal and nitrate bag? More bio cubes? I got the ones you sent a pic of to me in the PM?

I'm hoping my fish have enough room that they don't fight over territory an I have no casualties. Even though I know it's not likely. I even turned my water temp down to 76ish to help keep aggression low. someone on here suggested that to me. The Cariba chase each other around though an fin nip.


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## bob351

Haha they love selling chem filtration since its expensive and you need to replace it almost once a month if you want it to work well and not against you...

I would just fill the whole filter with the bio things i showed you, cant go wrong as long as you still have mechanical filtration in the tank, and when you need to clean witch i usually don't clean my ehiem substrat/ceramic bio things for atleast 4-5 moths(but i have a pre filter to keep chunks of food out) i will dunk them in a 5 gallon bucket of tank water gently this way the beneficial bacteria don't die and it gets any gunk that may have slipped past the pre filter then just put the trays back in the filter and thats all the maintenance required. My Mechanical filter the other canister has only floss and that is rinsed monthly in tank water a lil more vigorously since im not worried about the tiny amount of bacteria in there.

Caribes constantly fight thats why they need room, they will settle down eventually but they seem to square of and size each other up any change they can









And since its not a wet dry canister the more dissolved oxygen you have in the water (by creating more flow and surface agitation) the more aerobic beneficial bacteria you will be able to colonize.


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## memento

RedBelly11 said:


> Again sorry I got mad just seemed I was getting a lot of off the wall answers.


Like I explained in the rest of my post, I can fully understand topics like this can get very confusing.
Like Frank said, look for people who actually give arguments and are able to back their words up, instead of people who just back things up with silly arguments like "in my tank it worked very well".

You've got some nice there, good luck with them and keep reading on OPEFE, so far it still is the only resource of reliable information for this hobby.
Yes, there are a lot of other sites (not talking about forums) but staying up to date takes a lot of time and most I have seen, are very outdated in their information. Never rely on it - if it's not recently updated, it certainly is outdated.


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## MFNRyan

Bob, What about the tubes that pick up the water from the tank. I hear you have to clean these or they fill up with gunk and can cause the fish harm? I have floss a sponge filter and some finer media thats the first stage of filtration. I have three floss pads in it right now. Seems to be working awesome though. Water looks better and just today I checked all the params are going down.

One crazy thing I have been noticing is my Cariba and Red's rub there body against the rocks and plants, I dunno how to describe it, they swipe down on their side an rub against stuff or each other. Never seen this before lol.


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## bob351

I have seen my p's do it the odd time not on a regular basis tho, if it continues then you might have an issue but i doubt it just incase check for anything on them like ich or anything but that would be pretty visible. Im glad the water is getting under control... As for the tubes if they look nasty run a pipe cleaner through them but i don't think i have ever cleaned my aquarium pipes unless im change fish or swapping filters.


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## MFNRyan

Well the water could be getting better because there are no fish in that tank right now. The real test will be when I put fish in it. I can't see through my tubes, they are black. I'll keep an eye on them though. Thanks for your help


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