# Ammonia way too high!



## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

Hi i am sorta new to the whole freshwater thing and i am having troubles with my new tank setup, i got it 2 weeks ago. My lps said i could put the piranhas in within 5 days or so.It is a 60 gallon with 5, medium to large RBP's in it with a rena xp2 canister filter. I checked my water and the readings come up as this.

Nitrates - 0 ppm
Nitrites - 0 ppm
Ammonia - 6.0 mgl approximately....

I have changed the water quite a few times, to get the toxic ammonia out of there but my nitrites havent gone up at all? i dont know what to do. i REALLY dont want to loose these awesome fish. Should i do a water change? syphon out the gravel? skim the gravel? do daily water changes? I realy need this tank to cycle. Can someone please help me asap i really need someone.


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## boontje (Mar 27, 2005)

Deaner said:


> Hi I am having troubles with my new tank setup, i got it 2 weeks ago. My lps said i could put the piranhas in within 5 days or so.It is a 60 gallon with 5, medium to large RBP's in it with a rena xp2 canister filter. I checked my water and the readings come up as this.
> 
> Nitrates - 0 ppm
> Nitrites - 0 ppm
> ...


Hi
:welcome: to the forum

I'm afraid you're LPS was wrong: cycling, takes at least 2 weeks or longer.

Keep monitoring your water. You will see that your nitrites will go up soon. Only a while after that you will see nitrates going up.

Do small water changes daily (10% or 20%). Make sure the water is dechlorinated. 
As long as you're not cycled, I wouldn't touch the gravel (just hover the gravel vac over the gravel to suck up most of the crap).

When you see nitrites appearing, add a teaspoon of pre-dissolved salt (table salt is fine)

EDIT: actually there is a quicker way to cycle your tank: if you could use filter media from an alraedy established tank. Any chance you ahve that available?


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## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

No i dont have any other media from an established tank,.. man i wish i did tho.. so just keep doing water changes 10-20 percent everyday? should i add live bacteria everytime? also whut will the salt do?


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

Go back to that LPS that told you 5 days would be enough before putting the fish in and tell them you want some damn substrate from one of their cycled tanks.


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## boontje (Mar 27, 2005)

do 10% water changes. check the parameters. ifyou see that the ammonia is still going up, you could do 20% water changes a day

what live bacteria are you speaking about. as far as I know only bio-spira works (although I can't speak from experience - not available around here)
in that case you only need to add it once.

nitrite in the water will prevent your fish from taking up oxygen (brown blood disease or nitrite poisening). adding a small amount of salt will help aginst this. (1 teaspoon is enough, but add a new spoon after a couple of water changes e.g. 50%)

another important thing is to watch out with the feedings. (more food = more ammonia, so you'll have to watch out as long as your tank is not cycled - meaning you have no bacteria to break down the harmful ammonia). don't feed too much (how old/what size are your fish?) and clean up the leftovers asap.


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## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

Yah i definetly should do that..... how long would it take to cycle if i did that? Ah the live bactieria is called, big al's multi purpose bio support, (300 million live bacteria per teaspoon. Also when exactly do i put the salt in? when the nitrates spike? Im not exactly how big they are but a couple are about 4 inches, a couple proly 7 and one 8, they are pretty huge, i imagine the biggest one is pretty old


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## boontje (Mar 27, 2005)

you may also want to look into getting some extra filtration. one XP2 for 5 reds might not be enough


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## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

boontje said:


> you may also want to look into getting some extra filtration. one XP2 for 5 reds might not be enough


what else would i need with my xp2?


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## boontje (Mar 27, 2005)

Deaner said:


> you may also want to look into getting some extra filtration. one XP2 for 5 reds might not be enough


what else would i need with my xp2?
[/quote]
XP2 is rated for tanks up to 75g, right? Problem is that for a piranha tank (especially a tank with several pygo's) you would need more filtration (the filter rating is usually meant for a community tank)
I would say it's best to get filtration rated at least twice the size of your tank. So for example an XP3 (or 2 XP2's). To make the bad news complete I'm afraid the tank is also on the small side for 5 reds. They could be fine in there for a bit longer, but not for very long.


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## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

boontje said:


> you may also want to look into getting some extra filtration. one XP2 for 5 reds might not be enough


what else would i need with my xp2?
[/quote]
XP2 is rated for tanks up to 75g, right? Problem is that for a piranha tank (especially a tank with several pygo's) you would need more filtration (the filter rating is usually meant for a community tank)
I would say it's best to get filtration rated at least twice the size of your tank. So for example an XP3 (or 2 XP2's). To make the bad news complete I'm afraid the tank is also on the small side for 5 reds. They could be fine in there for a bit longer, but not for very long.
[/quote]

You think they will die eventually? would 4 be good in this size of tank?


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## boontje (Mar 27, 2005)

piranha are very hardy fish, but your fish will grow larger, look better, and live longer (20 years should be possible with good care) if the tank is large enough. 
What are the dimensions of your tank? (height is less important than 'footprint').


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## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

boontje said:


> piranha are very hardy fish, but your fish will grow larger, look better, and live longer (20 years should be possible with good care) if the tank is large enough.
> What are the dimensions of your tank? (height is less important than 'footprint').


The footprint of my tank is 4' lenght by 1',1" width, the height is about 20 inches, would you be able to tell me if it would be sufficient for my 5 rbp's please?


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

Deaner said:


> The footprint of my tank is 4' lenght by 1',1" width, the height is about 20 inches, would you be able to tell me if it would be sufficient for my 5 rbp's please?


A footprint of 48 inches x 12 inches is definitely way too small for even one adult Red Bellied Piranha. How could you keep there a fish of 11-13" length?
It is possible to keep there 5 until they start forming territories (about 4-5 inches of length). After that one or more of them is suffering all the time. Not to mention about water quality problems that will be huge in such a small tank.

*About NH3, NO2 and NO3*
A new tank does not have nitrifying bacteria at all. Then any living organism which produces feces adds ammonia (NH3) into the water. The more you feed, the more ammonia will buil up.
Ammonia in the water dissolves almost immediately into ammonium ions (NH4+) and hydroxide ions (OH-). In acidic waters OH- is neutralized, but in basic waters it is not, and it acts as an corrosive agent (dangerous to the fish gills and skin).

On the other hand ammonium in the water lets nitrifying bacteria to build up. These (Nitrosomonas) are not free floating bacteria, they live on any substrate. They will oxidize NH4 into nitrites (NO2). Nitrites are also poisonous as they hamper the oxygen transmission chain in the blood.

On the other hand nitrites in the water lets other nitrifying bacteria to build up. These (Nitrobacter) are also benthic and they oxidize NO2 into nitrates (NO3). Fishes generally tolerate nitrate levels less than 80 mg/litre (or ppm), but to prevent excess algae growth a level of 15-25 is fine.

Regards,


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## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

harrykaa said:


> The footprint of my tank is 4' lenght by 1',1" width, the height is about 20 inches, would you be able to tell me if it would be sufficient for my 5 rbp's please?


A footprint of 48 inches x 12 inches is definitely way too small for even one adult Red Bellied Piranha. How could you keep there a fish of 11-13" length?
It is possible to keep there 5 until they start forming territories (about 4-5 inches of length). After that one or more of them is suffering all the time. Not to mention about water quality problems that will be huge in such a small tank.

*About NH3, NO2 and NO3*
A new tank does not have nitrifying bacteria at all. Then any living organism which produces feces adds ammonia (NH3) into the water. The more you feed, the more ammonia will buil up.
Ammonia in the water dissolves almost immediately into ammonium ions (NH4+) and hydroxide ions (OH-). In acidic waters OH- is neutralized, but in basic waters it is not, and it acts as an corrosive agent (dangerous to the fish gills and skin).

On the other hand ammonium in the water lets nitrifying bacteria to build up. These (Nitrosomonas) are not free floating bacteria, they live on any substrate. They will oxidize NH4 into nitrites (NO2). Nitrites are also poisonous as they hamper the oxygen transmission chain in the blood.

On the other hand nitrites in the water lets other nitrifying bacteria to build up. These (Nitrobacter) are also benthic and they oxidize NO2 into nitrates (NO3). Fishes generally tolerate nitrate levels less than 80 mg/litre (or ppm), but to prevent excess algae growth a level of 15-25 is fine.

Regards,
[/quote]

SO its WAY too smal eh... how many piranhas do you think could live in this tank? people tell me im just pushin it having 5 in there, not making them suffer? you are talking like i could only have one in there? Apparently my one biggest fish is pretty old, proly about 6 years apparently but it definetly isnt 13 inches either


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## sprfunk (Dec 22, 2005)

These fish should get about a foot long, so it they do reach anything close to that it would be hard for them to turn around in a foot of space. I have 5 in a 75 gallon (they are not as big as yours even) and they are already feeling cramped. If I were you I would start thinking about a 100 gall tank. + 100 gall tanks are totally sweet! maby you have room for both..... You could keep a small P in the 60. Anyway gl.


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## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

sprfunk said:


> These fish should get about a foot long, so it they do reach anything close to that it would be hard for them to turn around in a foot of space. I have 5 in a 75 gallon (they are not as big as yours even) and they are already feeling cramped. If I were you I would start thinking about a 100 gall tank. + 100 gall tanks are totally sweet! maby you have room for both..... You could keep a small P in the 60. Anyway gl.


lol i just got the 60 gallon, i should of got a 75 im thinkin. stupid people at the lps.... saying that i could make it work on with this tank. anyone wanna trade? Honestly tho, how many do you think could live in this tank successfully?


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## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

I took my fish back to LPS yesterday to hold for me until my tank is fully cycled.. i have alot of ammonia in it . About 5.0ppm, i put some cycle in it to start it up should i be putting a couple goldfish in? or will the ammonia in there already from the piranhas be good enough to complete the cycle?


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

If i were you i would get a dropper and put 60 drops of pure clear ammonia (shake the bottle and make sure it does not fizzle or suds up) per day then once you have a nitrite spike which should be soon anyways then cut it to 30 drops per day until cycle is complete. I personally wait till i see a trace of nitrates then cut the dosage in half. If you can't get a hold of pure clear ammonia then make sure you have enough goldfish that will produse as much waste as your p's. Once your tank is cycled and you are ready to put the p's in do a large water change with conditioner added and remove the goldfish. Otherwise if you don't, you will have a mini cycle due to the increased bio load when you add your p's.


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## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

jerry_plakyda said:


> If i were you i would get a dropper and put 60 drops of pure clear ammonia (shake the bottle and make sure it does not fizzle or suds up) per day then once you have a nitrite spike which should be soon anyways then cut it to 30 drops per day until cycle is complete. I personally wait till i see a trace of nitrates then cut the dosage in half. If you can't get a hold of pure clear ammonia then make sure you have enough goldfish that will produse as much waste as your p's. Once your tank is cycled and you are ready to put the p's in do a large water change with conditioner added and remove the goldfish. Otherwise if you don't, you will have a mini cycle due to the increased bio load when you add your p's.


I already have quite a bit of ammonia in there... should i wait until the ammonia goes down to 1ppm or something, and then put the drops in because if i put it in now i would think the ammonia would be like 1000000ppm


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## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

Should i be puttin a few goldfish in? or waiting for the ammonia to drop down, or just leave it totally, there is still quite a bit of ammonia in there


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## boontje (Mar 27, 2005)

Deaner said:


> Should i be puttin a few goldfish in? or waiting for the ammonia to drop down, or just leave it totally, there is still quite a bit of ammonia in there


just add the drops of pure ammonia as Jerry said
no need for any fish


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## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

boontje said:


> Should i be puttin a few goldfish in? or waiting for the ammonia to drop down, or just leave it totally, there is still quite a bit of ammonia in there


just add the drops of pure ammonia as Jerry said
no need for any fish
[/quote]

should i wait for the ammonia to go down to 1.5 or 2? or just start puttin it in right away


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## boontje (Mar 27, 2005)

Deaner said:


> Should i be puttin a few goldfish in? or waiting for the ammonia to drop down, or just leave it totally, there is still quite a bit of ammonia in there


just add the drops of pure ammonia as Jerry said
no need for any fish
[/quote]

should i wait for the ammonia to go down to 1.5 or 2? or just start puttin it in right away
[/quote]
it's already been a few days since you took out the fish, so I would start right now adding the pure ammonia

what are the readings now?


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## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

boontje said:


> Should i be puttin a few goldfish in? or waiting for the ammonia to drop down, or just leave it totally, there is still quite a bit of ammonia in there


just add the drops of pure ammonia as Jerry said
no need for any fish
[/quote]

should i wait for the ammonia to go down to 1.5 or 2? or just start puttin it in right away
[/quote]
it's already been a few days since you took out the fish, so I would start right now adding the pure ammonia

what are the readings now?
[/quote]

The reading is still very high for some reason, proly around 5.5 or so


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## Deaner (Apr 18, 2006)

my nitrites are starting to go up, they are around 1.0 the ammonia is still high, should i just leave it until it until the ammonia and nitrites are zero and nitrates are up, or put some fish in there? im not gonna do it with pure ammonia


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