# JUST CAN NOT READ ANY MORE OF THIS SHIPPING B.S.!!!



## eczs-1

You know.....after selling on the internet now for a few years and especially after the 6 months or so I have been on this site, I have finally had all I can take with the total garbage that is being slung around when some poor dolt gets taken for a ride and gets some piece of dying garbage that a seller throws in the box.
Now I have only been importing fish,reptiles,and now back to fish, for over 30 years so I have absolutely no idea what I am talking about.Just shooting from the hip here, but still...try to pay attention.

One: Fish from reputable shippers overseas do not come in with ripped fins,open wounds, skinny and basically a bag of bones.
Fish sent by fly by night exporters who send dregs and don't like the buyer-yes.They send that trash because they feel they will not get paid and they would rather it die on someone else..and maybe they will get paid anyway. But fish that are exported are in top shape...FROM THE WILD!!! If they were not,they would be dead in seconds.It is called survivalof the fittest.

Two: Fish are purged before shipping.This is done over a few days or weeks depending on the fish and how it is done.I do this 2 ways in Peru, Belem, and Ecuador with huge specimens being purged and not fed for up to 3 weeks.Guess what?If the fish is healthy it does not lose any weight.It does not get skinny.Sorry to burst a bubble...it just does not happen. Got thousands of fish passed through to prove my point as well.

Three: Acclimating incorrectly...or water parameters ( Oh,I love it when they get technical!!!) will cause the fish to wither and die.
Wrong again,fishbreath.
I use Mahwah,N.J. tap water with nothing added except kosher salt and cupramine.I have no idea what the Ph or hardness is...no idea if there is an ammonia reading...nitrate...nitite...I doubt the people who are claiming this know what these mean in relation to water quality, but it sounds so good.
My acclimation...cut them out of the bags and toss them into their respective tanks."Welcome to America,guys!"
A tank can not go bad in mins. and a fish will not die in hours if the tank has an ammonia reading.If ammonia is off the chart...yes...but there would have to be a huge biomass in that tank to produce that much ammonia.It does not just appear by itself, kill, and skulk away into the night.

And fish do not get ammonia burn during shipping on short term flights.8-12 hours will not burn the flesh off the fish if it has been packed in fresh, new water.Now packed in old,fouled water from a system that has a high ammonia level to start...and the slime is already beginning to slough off...now we have a winner.

Either you all live in a state of denial or you have absolutely no idea what is going on.What I believe is you have been sold absolute garbage for so long you now consider it the gold standard.I am sick and tired of watching it go down and since I really do not care what anyone thinks of me ,at this point, on PF I am going to shake things up a bit.

There are a good number of you here in NJ who can easily get to my place.I want a group of you to get together and we will plan a Sunday meeting. I will bring in say 5 boxes of assorted piranhas from Peru and we will all cut them out of the bags and treat them exactly the way I have described above. You must remember, at this point, they have been in the bags for 35-40 hours since packing in Iquitos.I will take you all out for dinner.We will come back and review the fish...which by all accounts should be a skinny,dead,twisted mass of agonized flesh.
You will each then sit in my office, on my computer, and post on this board exactly what you have seen and the results.
I will then offer the said fish to PF members for my LANDED COST. ...ONLY TO PEOPLE IN LEGAL STATES.
It is called putting one's money where the mouth is and flushing away this incompetent babble like the turd it is.
Don't like what I have to say...tough.Feel insulted...so do I with alot of the trash I have been going through here recently. 
Let's see if the leaders from N.J. are willing to be your eyes and see if I know what I am talking about.
DAWGZ can go and set it up.
Best Fishes,

John


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## fiveo93




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## RB 32

I have put 4 baby red-bellys in a 40 gallon NEVER cycled tank then on top of that not a singal water change gave them the worst water conditions possible the water filthy as hell we did this for 2 years and I did not lose any of them non of them died still going..

I just don't understand how some of these people kill there piranha it is extremely hard to kill off a piranha people don't know how tough these fish are...for piranhas if you don't cycle the tank it will not die try it .


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## Badrad1532

thats a great deal, and a very good way to prove a point

i wish i was in NJ


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## eczs-1

RB 32 said:


> I have put 4 baby red-bellys in a 40 gallon NEVER cycled tank then on top of that not a singal water change gave them the worst water conditions possible the water filthy as hell we did this for 2 years and I did not lose any of them non of them died still going..
> 
> I just don't understand how some of these people kill there piranha it is extremely hard to kill off a piranha people don't know how tough these fish are...for piranhas if you don't cycle the tank it will not die try it .


The point is they are not killing their piranha.They are being sold fish that are dying and in very poor condition.Then,when they complain, they are being told a bunch of garbage and made to believe it is something they did wrong.
I am going to prove this is the case.
John


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## MIKE JONES

RB 32 said:


> I have put 4 baby red-bellys in a 40 gallon NEVER cycled tank then on top of that not a singal water change gave them the worst water conditions possible the water filthy as hell we did this for 2 years and I did not lose any of them non of them died still going..
> 
> I just don't understand how some of these people kill there piranha it is extremely hard to kill off a piranha people don't know how tough these fish are...for piranhas if you don't cycle the tank it will not die try it .


why would you give your Piranhas the worst conditions possible? and no water changes for two years, thats just crule and stupid! i bet your tank and house smelled good, 4 baby RBP in a 40 gallon that wasnt cycled, and no water changes for two years, post pics, because either your just a dumb ass or your a pathic lier,


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## ...Jay...

RB 32 doesn't even own piranha, he just has a few pictures of someones fat fish on his computer.


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## Dawgz

eczs-1 said:


> You know.....after selling on the internet now for a few years and especially after the 6 months or so I have been on this site, I have finally had all I can take with the total garbage that is being slung around when some poor dolt gets taken for a ride and gets some piece of dying garbage that a seller throws in the box.
> Now I have only been importing fish,reptiles,and now back to fish, for over 30 years so I have absolutely no idea what I am talking about.Just shooting from the hip here, but still...try to pay attention.
> 
> One: Fish from reputable shippers overseas do not come in with ripped fins,open wounds, skinny and basically a bag of bones.
> Fish sent by fly by night exporters who send dregs and don't like the buyer-yes.They send that trash because they feel they will not get paid and they would rather it die on someone else..and maybe they will get paid anyway. But fish that are exported are in top shape...FROM THE WILD!!! If they were not,they would be dead in seconds.It is called survivalof the fittest.
> 
> Two: Fish are purged before shipping.This is done over a few days or weeks depending on the fish and how it is done.I do this 2 ways in Peru, Belem, and Ecuador with huge specimens being purged and not fed for up to 3 weeks.Guess what?If the fish is healthy it does not lose any weight.It does not get skinny.Sorry to burst a bubble...it just does not happen. Got thousands of fish passed through to prove my point as well.
> 
> Three: Acclimating incorrectly...or water parameters ( Oh,I love it when they get technical!!!) will cause the fish to wither and die.
> Wrong again,fishbreath.
> I use Mahwah,N.J. tap water with nothing added except kosher salt and cupramine.I have no idea what the Ph or hardness is...no idea if there is an ammonia reading...nitrate...nitite...I doubt the people who are claiming this know what these mean in relation to water quality, but it sounds so good.
> My acclimation...cut them out of the bags and toss them into their respective tanks."Welcome to America,guys!"
> A tank can not go bad in mins. and a fish will not die in hours if the tank has an ammonia reading.If ammonia is off the chart...yes...but there would have to be a huge biomass in that tank to produce that much ammonia.It does not just appear by itself, kill, and skulk away into the night.
> 
> And fish do not get ammonia burn during shipping on short term flights.8-12 hours will not burn the flesh off the fish if it has been packed in fresh, new water.Now packed in old,fouled water from a system that has a high ammonia level to start...and the slime is already beginning to slough off...now we have a winner.
> 
> Either you all live in a state of denial or you have absolutely no idea what is going on.What I believe is you have been sold absolute garbage for so long you now consider it the gold standard.I am sick and tired of watching it go down and since I really do not care what anyone thinks of me ,at this point, on PF I am going to shake things up a bit.
> 
> There are a good number of you here in NJ who can easily get to my place.I want a group of you to get together and we will plan a Sunday meeting. I will bring in say 5 boxes of assorted piranhas from Peru and we will all cut them out of the bags and treat them exactly the way I have described above. You must remember, at this point, they have been in the bags for 35-40 hours since packing in Iquitos.I will take you all out for dinner.We will come back and review the fish...which by all accounts should be a skinny,dead,twisted mass of agonized flesh.
> You will each then sit in my office, on my computer, and post on this board exactly what you have seen and the results.
> I will then offer the said fish to PF members for my LANDED COST. ...ONLY TO PEOPLE IN LEGAL STATES.
> It is called putting one's money where the mouth is and flushing away this incompetent babble like the turd it is.
> Don't like what I have to say...tough.Feel insulted...so do I with alot of the trash I have been going through here recently.
> Let's see if the leaders from N.J. are willing to be your eyes and see if I know what I am talking about.
> DAWGZ can go and set it up.
> Best Fishes,
> 
> John


DUDE, im so down for this, Anyone in the NJ area, PM ME, and ill set this sh*t right up.


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## barbianj

RB 32, those are horrible fishkeeping practices which you should NOT promote to others, and it is off topic.


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## Ahmed

I added 10 baby red bellies in a brand new un-cycled tank with tap water un-tested. They are doing fine!


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## ChilDawg

Two questions:
How long ago? and Why?


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## Ahmed

ChilDawg said:


> Two questions:
> How long ago? and Why?


If this post is for me, then:

1. Three months ago
2. Ignorance.


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## ChilDawg

Fair enough...and, yes, it was for you. I wonder if you're in the clear yet at this point, but I obviously hope that you are. Have you run a water test since you started?


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## BigPleco

Good for you John! You seem like an awesome guy! Wish I lived in New Jersey so I could join in the day....cant wait to hear and see how it goes! I've never acclimated a fish with the exception of acclimating for the same temp. Have never had a fish die on me within months of acclimation. I'm on your side John. Let the truth be told!

Chris


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## eczs-1

ChilDawg said:


> Fair enough...and, yes, it was for you. I wonder if you're in the clear yet at this point, but I obviously hope that you are. Have you run a water test since you started?


I think the point both these guys are making and you are not smart enough to see is why would you test anything if the fish are thriving.You are a slave to your own close-minded thinking that chemicals,cycling,all the marketing non-sense a pet shop and pet industry throws at you is true.
It may not be a perfect situation...but for these 2 guys it worked...also because they were dealing with babies in realatively larger tanks.If they put 30-40 into the system there would have been a problem.Those systems can set up naturally with that type of bioload and you would not even see the ammonia and nitrate rise and fall.
Simple...if you see the fish in stress-do a water change.The bacteria establishes itself much faster than you think.
This thread is not about establishing a tank.
This is about the crap you are being served on a regular basis to make you believe you are the cause of diseased,dying fish being sent to you.
Let's see these guys "make good" on all these fish AND pay the freight to make up for sending the fish in the first place. Ain't gonna happen.You pay for the fish...you pay the shipping(each time they send another winner) and the bill goes higher until you could have bought 3 at a pet shop for less money or you have to look at some wreatch of a fish in tour tank that takes months of work to bring it back to life.
This is what you all deal with and cheer on sellers for a job well done.
















The only thing that is well done is your butt that has been slowly roasted on a spit over a low flame.

John


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## Ahmed

ChilDawg said:


> Fair enough...and, yes, it was for you. I wonder if you're in the clear yet at this point, but I obviously hope that you are. Have you run a water test since you started?


No, the only test I managed to get done was a PH test. And our tap water is dessalinated and holds a PH of 6.5 anyway! So I'm OK there.

As far as ammonia test is concerned, i cant get the test kit here, I have to order it!


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## Ibanez247

I totally agree with the water parameters acclimating stuff. I never test for ph levels or anything. The last time I did my fish died and that was over 20 years ago. The only thing I do when getting a new fish is add water from the existing tank into its bag to get temp about the same. Then I net him out and its home. I just moved this pass weekend and it took 6 hours to tear down and set my tank back up before I put my fish in. Two 6" P's in a 12 gallon cooler. They did just fine. I honestly think the only reason pet stores tell you to test all that stuff is to sell you $20 bottles of crap. Only way I believe water parameters will effect your fish is if they are waaaay off the scale like John stated before. Like others have stated if nothings wrong dont change anything.


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## Grosse Gurke

Interesting read









To the few that are promoting keeping fish in the worst possible conditions and them thriving......dont post about it in this thread...it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This is a site dedicated to not only keeping these fish alive....but taking proper care of them. I could put a 16" rhom in a 20 gallon and keep him alive....but that his hardly proper care. Bragging about how hardy these fish are by posting about your ignorant fish skills is not proving anything.....and really.....simply makes you like like a dumbass.


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## BlackSunshine

Very interesting thread. If I were in Jersey I'd take you up on this trip. 
I do however think water testing is an important part of tank maintenance at least for the first couple months until the new tank is fully established.


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## fiveo93

Grosse Gurke said:


> Interesting read
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the few that are promoting keeping fish in the worst possible conditions and them thriving......dont post about it in this thread...it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This is a site dedicated to not only keeping these fish alive....but taking proper care of them. I could put a 16" rhom in a 20 gallon and keep him alive....but that his hardly proper care. Bragging about how hardy these fish are by posting about your ignorant fish skills is not proving anything.....and really.....simply makes you like like a dumbass.


thanks GG this post has some







strung through it, its the same people posting this sh*t that come back with posts that start off... "HELP!!! P's are dropping like flies" I guess that why the first reply is always "what are your water perimeters?"


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## armac

I acclimate new fish, about a 20 minute procedure. But I have never in 25 years of fishkeeping had a test kit of any kind. I change about 50% of my water every 10 days or so. My fish are healthy and breeding.

Sometimes people can let all the procedures overburden the hobby..........


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## barbianj

Why don't one of you start a new thread about how you have not tested or cycled your tanks. It will make for a interesting topic, and keep this thread on track.


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## SNAKEBITE

RB 32 said:


> I have put 4 baby red-bellys in a 40 gallon NEVER cycled tank then on top of that not a singal water change gave them the worst water conditions possible the water filthy as hell we did this for 2 years and I did not lose any of them non of them died still going..
> 
> I just don't understand how some of these people kill there piranha it is extremely hard to kill off a piranha people don't know how tough these fish are...for piranhas if you don't cycle the tank it will not die try it .


wow, this shouldnt be put out so everyone can read and know how YOU are irresponsible for owning piranhas.


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## eczs-1

Interesting how this thread is sliding away from the topic.
Trying to bury it, guys????

I am not going away.

You can handle your tanks any way you see fit.

Selling sick and dying fish and then blaming the customer and evoking water conditions, acclimation, purging, etc. to cover it all up is the topic.

Think we can stay focused on that and only that concept????

Now try re-reading my Post#1 again and let's have another go at it, OK?

John


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## Ægir

eczs-1 said:


> Fair enough...and, yes, it was for you. I wonder if you're in the clear yet at this point, but I obviously hope that you are. Have you run a water test since you started?


I think the point both these guys are making and you are not smart enough to see is why would you test anything if the fish are thriving.You are a slave to your own close-minded thinking that chemicals,cycling,all the marketing non-sense a pet shop and pet industry throws at you is true.
It may not be a perfect situation...but for these 2 guys it worked...also because they were dealing with babies in realatively larger tanks.If they put 30-40 into the system there would have been a problem.Those systems can set up naturally with that type of bioload and you would not even see the ammonia and nitrate rise and fall.
Simple...if you see the fish in stress-do a water change.The bacteria establishes itself much faster than you think.
This thread is not about establishing a tank.
This is about the crap you are being served on a regular basis to make you believe you are the cause of diseased,dying fish being sent to you.
*Let's see these guys "make good" on all these fish AND pay the freight to make up for sending the fish in the first place. Ain't gonna happen.You pay for the fish...you pay the shipping(each time they send another winner) and the bill goes higher until you could have bought 3 at a pet shop for less money or you have to look at some wreatch of a fish in tour tank that takes months of work to bring it back to life.*
This is what you all deal with and cheer on sellers for a job well done.
















The only thing that is well done is your butt that has been slowly roasted on a spit over a low flame.

John
[/quote]

coincidentally i had a similar experience, and decided to dump 30$ of store credit and a few things of blackwater extract because, after 2 F'ed orders, and several hundred dollars, things were still messed up, i was sick of being told "well if you just place another order, and pay shipping we will get it taken care of"

and sence then i have been more than satisfied with the new sponsor i picked... (*cough thanks MA cough*)

i cant wait to see how this turns out... keep us all posted!


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## Noel2896

kinda see the point, I got my sanch overnight from aquascape - cut the bag open threw him in the tank and wished him well, and yep he's still alive - I didn't even float the bag


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## SNAKEBITE

Noel2896 said:


> kinda see the point, I got my sanch overnight from aquascape - cut the bag open threw him in the tank and wished him well, and yep he's still alive - I didn't even float the bag


Actually, I don't think you got the point.


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## Noel2896

ok snakebite whats the point? from what I take he feels that people are being shipped diseased fish from unreputable sellers and then they blame the buyer for bad water conditions? am I missing something


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## curly

I can see your point. My Diamond Rhom was shipped to the UK to the importers. They sent me this pic of it the day after they received it:








I bought it after they said it was ok and healed up. When I received it and opened up the box you could smell the water and it had only been in it for approx 16hrs! I put it into my tank and boy was it thin! The importers said it was feeding ok on bloodworm and clams. This fish is 10"! Look at how thin it is:








Its eating like a train now and putting on weight. So I know where your coming from. One of the other Piranha dealers in the UK (and a member on here) has just got in a shipment from SA and also has a 10-11" Diamond Rhom but his is well in shape with the bodyfat stores all nicely stocked up and no (as far as I know) ammonia burn. Unfortunately the 16" Rhom that came over with it didn't make it but I'll let him have the chance to tell you about it.

Nice to see someone putting their money where the mouth is and you have my respect for that.


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## eczs-1

Noel2896 said:


> ok snakebite whats the point? from what I take he feels that people are being shipped diseased fish from unreputable sellers and then they blame the buyer for bad water conditions? am I missing something


I think you have the point dead on.

I am going to show you all up to 200 assorted fish...purged up to 10 days-maybe more...in bags for 35-40 hours, cut out of bags, and placed in tanks of new tap water with no clorine remover or other chemicals except kosher salt and cupramine.Let's see if the fish are skinny out of the bags...somehow lose body mass and get skinny in a few hours...and die by the end of dinner.

I have a feeling alot of you are going to have the uncomfortable experience of re-evaluating your idle hero worship and realize just how much you have been made fools of.

Time will tell.

John


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## sadboy

eczs-1 said:


> [I think the point both these guys are making and you are not smart enough to see is why would you test anything if the fish are thriving.You are a slave to your own close-minded thinking that chemicals,cycling,all the marketing non-sense a pet shop and pet industry throws at you is true.
> It may not be a perfect situation...but for these 2 guys it worked...also because they were dealing with babies in realatively larger tanks.*If they put 30-40 into the system there would have been a problem.*


I am not going to go into shipping, since I live in a illegal state and no one will ship to me. I do however disagree with your statement. When I first got into P's. I set-up up my 60 gallon and that same day after it was set-up with out knowing anything but the basic (heater, filter). I went to a fellow P-fury members home and got my first 4 p's who were about 2in to 4in. They looked great in person considering they where in a 125 gallon and where with lots of p's. When I brought my p's home and just put them in the tank. They died on me in less then an hour. Now after doing my reading and some homework, I came to find out that it was my fault for killing my p's. 
Who ever is knowlying willing to but p's in an uncycled tank is a dumbshit. Tap waters is not cycled and must be cycled if you want your prized fish to make it.


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## AKSkirmish

Do I have this right Jon or No----

In my situation with my big rhom that got all messed up in shipping-

Are you saying that it should have been replaced by shipper cause of the condition it arrived in and the circumstances on where and how this fish was being put on display-

(If you even remeber my case from awhile back that is).....


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## Dawgz

So far, i have NickNick down for the Sunday trip, anyone else, PM me.


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## NickNick

I will be there, even though i dont doubt john at all. 30 yrs he gotta know what hes talking about.


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## eczs-1

AKSkirmish said:


> Do I have this right Jon or No----
> 
> In my situation with my big rhom that got all messed up in shipping-
> 
> Are you saying that it should have been replaced by shipper cause of the condition it arrived in and the circumstances on where and how this fish was being put on display-
> 
> (If you even remeber my case from awhile back that is).....


Don't know the details.
Call me and we'll discuss it. 
To tell you the truth...I have never had a big rhom-up to 17.75"-have any problems getting to it's new owner in anything but prime condition and that is a documented fact.
John


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## eczs-1

sadboy said:


> [I think the point both these guys are making and you are not smart enough to see is why would you test anything if the fish are thriving.You are a slave to your own close-minded thinking that chemicals,cycling,all the marketing non-sense a pet shop and pet industry throws at you is true.
> It may not be a perfect situation...but for these 2 guys it worked...also because they were dealing with babies in realatively larger tanks.*If they put 30-40 into the system there would have been a problem.*


I am not going to go into shipping, since I live in a illegal state and no one will ship to me. I do however disagree with your statement. When I first got into P's. I set-up up my 60 gallon and that same day after it was set-up with out knowing anything but the basic (heater, filter). I went to a fellow P-fury members home and got my first 4 p's who were about 2in to 4in. They looked great in person considering they where in a 125 gallon and where with lots of p's. When I brought my p's home and just put them in the tank. They died on me in less then an hour. Now after doing my reading and some homework, I came to find out that it was my fault for killing my p's. 
Who ever is knowlying willing to but p's in an uncycled tank is a dumbshit. Tap waters is not cycled and must be cycled if you want your prized fish to make it.
[/quote]
Whole different set of circumstances.I could list alot of things that could have gone wrong but fish that die that fast either had some poison that got into the tank or since you were bringing them from a fellow hobbiest and I will bet they had no O2 in the bag, they could have had damage from oxygen deprivation.If you are in an illegal state...and NOONE will ship to you...LOL...I would feel safe to guess it was hot out and heat could also quickly get overheated and shock out as soon as they hit the water.
Sorry, but what we are talking about here is very different and in thread after thread the same garbage is stated...skinny fish...weak fish...ammonia burned fish...fish with torn up bodies and fins.
Those are the "parameters" we are going to deal with here, gentlemen.
Just the facts as documented on this board time after time.
Stick to them.
John


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## AKSkirmish

eczs-1 said:


> Do I have this right Jon or No----
> 
> In my situation with my big rhom that got all messed up in shipping-
> 
> Are you saying that it should have been replaced by shipper cause of the condition it arrived in and the circumstances on where and how this fish was being put on display-
> 
> (If you even remeber my case from awhile back that is).....


Don't know the details.
Call me and we'll discuss it. 
To tell you the truth...I have never had a big rhom-up to 17.75"-have any problems getting to it's new owner in anything but prime condition and that is a documented fact.
John
[/quote]

Fair enough John-
Thanks for the response-
I might just call one day..........But dont hold your breath...I'm a lazy bastard,Although we have talked on the phone before-And I carry one of the finest specimens of piraya that came from you also-
I for one certainly dont doubt you.......


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## fiveo93

thats why people need to find a reputable dealer and stick with him. i deal with one and only one supplier and i know for a fact. that he wont send me any kind of half dead, half eaten, diseased bullshit. if there is any doubt in his stock he will NOT send them out. its that simple! i might have to wait but there is some compensation for it. for example. i ordered a handful of juvi cariba, about 3-4"s the next day he called me and told me that the shipment he received of them didnt look too good and asked me if it would be ok if he just sent me the same amount but instead of them being 3-4"ers they would be 8-9"ers for the same price. i have been ordering from this guy for the last few years, and because of his business ethics i will always buy from him no matter what other kinda deals there are out there.


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## Ahmed

I must be the only person who walked into a fish shop, bought wild caught red bellies, and had the pet shop owner tell me:

"Ahmed, these fish are hard and resiliant... just make sure you feed them well and keep their wter clean, they will be fine... and if you have any problems, call me right away and i will have them replaced for you immediately"

WOW!!

I guess that proved the point of this thread out and out! Cause after buying those baby red B's, and registered on forums like this, I got the shitts scared out of me by reading about how tanks should be cycled etc etc etc

So far my P's are doing great and growing faster than expected!!


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## CLUSTER ONE

Ahmed said:


> I got the shitts scared out of me by reading about how tanks should be cycled etc etc etc


well you could of got lucky and had similar tank chemistry but try putting a p from 5.5ph then dumping it into a tank with 8 ph, thats why you dont want to just dump it in unless you know that your ph and other water chemistry is equal to where it came from

and i agree with you john that in the wild its survival of the fittest so only healthy specimins would be removed (with at most a couple fin nips) and then when they arrive at thre destination they have ammonia burn, damagaed fins, fungus...

so i agree that if you order a fish you shouldnt expect it to be already half dead when it arrives and if its a good sxporter it should be in the same condition if not better that it left the wild in


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## a-ronn

John has described perfectly the pirayas we got from MA. Bag of bones, body bites, over a full inch smaller than they were supposed to be.... Took 3 months to get them back to health like he also mentioned.


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## sadboy

eczs-1 said:


> [I think the point both these guys are making and you are not smart enough to see is why would you test anything if the fish are thriving.You are a slave to your own close-minded thinking that chemicals,cycling,all the marketing non-sense a pet shop and pet industry throws at you is true.
> It may not be a perfect situation...but for these 2 guys it worked...also because they were dealing with babies in realatively larger tanks.*If they put 30-40 into the system there would have been a problem.*


I am not going to go into shipping, since I live in a illegal state and no one will ship to me. I do however disagree with your statement. When I first got into P's. I set-up up my 60 gallon and that same day after it was set-up with out knowing anything but the basic (heater, filter). I went to a fellow P-fury members home and got my first 4 p's who were about 2in to 4in. They looked great in person considering they where in a 125 gallon and where with lots of p's. When I brought my p's home and just put them in the tank. They died on me in less then an hour. Now after doing my reading and some homework, I came to find out that it was my fault for killing my p's. 
Who ever is knowlying willing to but p's in an uncycled tank is a dumbshit. Tap waters is not cycled and must be cycled if you want your prized fish to make it.
[/quote]
Whole different set of circumstances.I could list alot of things that could have gone wrong but fish that die that fast either had some poison that got into the tank or since you were bringing them from a fellow hobbiest and I will bet they had no O2 in the bag, they could have had damage from oxygen deprivation.If you are in an illegal state...and NOONE will ship to you...LOL...I would feel safe to guess it was hot out and heat could also quickly get overheated and shock out as soon as they hit the water.
Sorry, but what we are talking about here is very different and in thread after thread the same garbage is stated...skinny fish...weak fish...ammonia burned fish...fish with torn up bodies and fins.
Those are the "parameters" we are going to deal with here, gentlemen.
Just the facts as documented on this board time after time.
Stick to them.
John
[/quote]
Fair enough..... Lets stick with the topic on hand...
But a little FYI: The p's where in a open aired bucket and it was a 20 min drive home


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## eczs-1

sadboy said:


> [I think the point both these guys are making and you are not smart enough to see is why would you test anything if the fish are thriving.You are a slave to your own close-minded thinking that chemicals,cycling,all the marketing non-sense a pet shop and pet industry throws at you is true.
> It may not be a perfect situation...but for these 2 guys it worked...also because they were dealing with babies in realatively larger tanks.*If they put 30-40 into the system there would have been a problem.*


I am not going to go into shipping, since I live in a illegal state and no one will ship to me. I do however disagree with your statement. When I first got into P's. I set-up up my 60 gallon and that same day after it was set-up with out knowing anything but the basic (heater, filter). I went to a fellow P-fury members home and got my first 4 p's who were about 2in to 4in. They looked great in person considering they where in a 125 gallon and where with lots of p's. When I brought my p's home and just put them in the tank. They died on me in less then an hour. Now after doing my reading and some homework, I came to find out that it was my fault for killing my p's. 
Who ever is knowlying willing to but p's in an uncycled tank is a dumbshit. Tap waters is not cycled and must be cycled if you want your prized fish to make it.
[/quote]
Whole different set of circumstances.I could list alot of things that could have gone wrong but fish that die that fast either had some poison that got into the tank or since you were bringing them from a fellow hobbiest and I will bet they had no O2 in the bag, they could have had damage from oxygen deprivation.If you are in an illegal state...and NOONE will ship to you...LOL...I would feel safe to guess it was hot out and heat could also quickly get overheated and shock out as soon as they hit the water.
Sorry, but what we are talking about here is very different and in thread after thread the same garbage is stated...skinny fish...weak fish...ammonia burned fish...fish with torn up bodies and fins.
Those are the "parameters" we are going to deal with here, gentlemen.
Just the facts as documented on this board time after time.
Stick to them.
John
[/quote]
Fair enough..... Lets stick with the topic on hand...
But a little FYI: The p's where in a open aired bucket and it was a 20 min drive home
[/quote]
That's enough to cause something to go wrong.
By the way,just to kill all this talk about new tanks...I am going to drain the holding tanks...fill them up with water straight from the tap in front of my "helpers" and put the fish from the shipping bags directly into those tanks.
What can you say about that????

And remember, the continual complaint here is not fish dying hours or days later. It is sick,damaged, and emaciated,fungused fish coming out of the bags and there are pictures all over the threads that document this.

Stick to the facts of the discussion. I am addressing not only water conditions here but also the physical condition of a fish coming in from the wild and 35-40 hours in a bag.This is complete overkill from a fish being packed under controlled conditions for a trip that should last less than 12 hours maximum.
Frame your comments within these parameters.

John


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## RBPFan

Good post John, thank you for dispelling the paranoia.


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## Doktordet

Not a doubter here but would love to be your "helper". lol


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## ChilDawg

I like the idea of the experiment, but the problem I see with the draining of the holding tanks is that those tanks are probably already cycled...and draining the water from within them isn't going to change whether or not that's true. (The bacteria aren't likely to be cut down significantly by a water change.)


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## barbianj

How long do your fish generally stay in the holding tanks?


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## Hater

I beleive any reputable fish seller will never sell you a bad fish, if they do, then they are not reputable.

What I do see froma lot of petshops is owners over sizing the fishes they are selling so people pay more. I see 4" Pirayas being sold as 7" Pirayas when they are no were near that size. And I've seen plenty more.

I'm in NJ, and depending on where we are eating. I will go.

Hater


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## eczs-1

Hater said:


> How long do your fish generally stay in the holding tanks?


A few days to well over a year if I decide to keep them.
The fish I keep here are for internet sales or things that came in with shipments that I felt were not in good shape.So I tank them,feed,medicate,and then sell them later.
John


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## eczs-1

ChilDawg said:


> Not a doubter here but would love to be your "helper". lol


You're in NJ...contact DAWGZ and join in on the fun.
John


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## Doktordet

[/quote]
You're in NJ...contact DAWGZ and join in on the fun.
John
[/quote]

*Already did John. Ive plans for this sunday. But none yet for other weekends so, we'll see. But I'd like to go.*


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## eczs-1

You're in NJ...contact DAWGZ and join in on the fun.
John

*Already did John. Ive plans for this sunday. But none yet for other weekends so, we'll see. But I'd like to go.* 
Looks like this will be done in 2 weeks so you're in.
John


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## Ahmed

This should be very interesting! The piranha bible might need to be re-written!


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## NJSOM

Someone who sends out crap should be held accountable but promoting BAD and LAZY practice for fish keeping is just plain ignorance. When I was in college I did my water changes when my water level would fall below my intakes and my fish lived for years but my fish were extremely stunted and looked like crap compared to some of these fish that i see on this site now.


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## Plum

Good, someone putting money where their mouth is.

I would love to join in the fun if I were closer..


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## Grosse Gurke

Hater said:


> I beleive any reputable fish seller will never sell you a bad fish, if they do, then they are not reputable.
> 
> What I do see froma lot of petshops is owners over sizing the fishes they are selling so people pay more. *I see 4" Pirayas being sold as 7" Pirayas when they are no were near that size.* And I've seen plenty more.
> 
> I'm in NJ, and depending on where we are eating. I will go.
> 
> Hater


Time for me to chime in









This is a ridiciulous statement. How many times have I bought fish from hobbyists or dealers and not gotten the exact size I have purchased.....let me think...probably 90% of the time. People estimate the size of there fish...and more often then not...they are on average 2" smaller then advertised. Im ok with that...and if I wasnt happy with my purchase then it is my responsibility to contact the seller and deal with it...or handle it at the time of the transaction. I am under no obligation to accept what I have purchased..and have free will to dispute any transaction.

What I find humorous about this thread...is everyone complaining now. If you are not happy...complain at the time of the transaction...dont whine about it later.

And John...I understand you have issues with how some people do business...but if you are that much better...then why advertise it? People will flock to you if you are that much better then everyone else. We live in a society of free will...and people have the option to pick any dealer they want too. I have purchased multiple times from each of the sponsors on this forum and have had no issues...and according to you...I am in the minority. I dont see it that way.

As long as the sponsors of this forum continue to make customers happy...I have no issue. When there are are problems and fish die in transit..I expect them to handle the site the situation...and as far as I know..they have. So for another sponsor to come out and say they have better fish...ship better....make people happier...it the same as one retailer saying they have a better product then any other retailer. Prove it...and you will put everyone out of business. No need to talk about it...just provide a better product and you will win.

So now..prove that fish can live in tap water...fine...I dont use conditioner and have chloramine in my water....but Im not going to recommend this for everyone. That is like saying my 90 year old uncle smoked everyday of his life...and he is fine...so you should get your kids hooked on smoking because they will live to be 90. Just because you do it...doesnt mean it will work for everyone....so why not advocate for fishkeeping methods that are better for the health of the fish...instead of proving that these fish can live in any fuckedup condition I decide they can live in. IMO...that is irresponsible.


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## P boost

I think what john is trying to say is that if a Piranha can live in horrible tank conditions for long periods, Why are people getting fish shipped to them that are half dead and a bag of bones, only after a over night delivery? and being blamed the buyer is at fault for the dead fish!


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## Exodon_Tetra

eczs-1 said:


> Three: Acclimating incorrectly...or water parameters ( Oh,I love it when they get technical!!!) will cause the fish to wither and die.
> Wrong again,fishbreath.
> I use Mahwah,N.J. tap water with nothing added except kosher salt and cupramine.I have no idea what the Ph or hardness is...no idea if there is an ammonia reading...nitrate...nitite...I doubt the people who are claiming this know what these mean in relation to water quality, but it sounds so good.
> My acclimation...cut them out of the bags and toss them into their respective tanks."Welcome to America,guys!"
> A tank can not go bad in mins. and a fish will not die in hours if the tank has an ammonia reading.If ammonia is off the chart...yes...but there would have to be a huge biomass in that tank to produce that much ammonia.It does not just appear by itself, kill, and skulk away into the night.


Yea, I got to disagree with you on this one..Yes, some fishes do not die when there is an ammonia and nitrite reading...But some fishes do die..Usually when there is an ammonia or nitrite reading, the chances are that the fish keeper is very inexperienced about proper water chemistry..Water quality is very important in my opinion..If you say it is not, then you yourself will get people who buy your fish and when the customer's water quality is bad, you will refund him or her since you are saying water quality does not matter..

Every LFS in my area would request a water sample before a refund can be given for a dead fish..You see, a lot of people do not know how important water quality is..You have people dumping fish in a brand new tank; you have people dumping fishes in a tank where the filters that have been shut off for days; you have people who overstock their tanks and have inadequate fiteration. This all leads to ammonia and nitrite which can kill a fish.. I dont blame the LFS for requesting a water sample before a refund is given because that is what is fair..If you think otherwise, this is the first time I heard of it...


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## bamdad

barbianj said:


> Why don't one of you start a new thread about how you have not tested or cycled your tanks. It will make for a interesting topic, and keep this thread on track.


i didnt cycle the tank & i lost 2 Ps & left the other guy with serious damages, lesson learned & i'd never do such things again, the thing is a living creature guyz. i dont care if he's healthy or not, but it should be kept in great condition


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## mori0174

I have never, ever, had a problem with shipped fish being diseased, underweight, or anything else. Its not that difficult to get fish that are in good condition. If there is some epidemic of bad fish being shipped by the reputable dealers on this site, then i have missed it. What you said in your first post isn't rocket science. There are plenty of reputable dealers to receive fish from, and you may be one more..


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## eczs-1

Grosse Gurke said:


> I beleive any reputable fish seller will never sell you a bad fish, if they do, then they are not reputable.
> 
> What I do see froma lot of petshops is owners over sizing the fishes they are selling so people pay more. *I see 4" Pirayas being sold as 7" Pirayas when they are no were near that size.* And I've seen plenty more.
> 
> I'm in NJ, and depending on where we are eating. I will go.
> 
> Hater


Time for me to chime in









This is a ridiciulous statement. How many times have I bought fish from hobbyists or dealers and not gotten the exact size I have purchased.....let me think...probably 90% of the time. People estimate the size of there fish...and more often then not...they are on average 2" smaller then advertised. Im ok with that...and if I wasnt happy with my purchase then it is my responsibility to contact the seller and deal with it...or handle it at the time of the transaction. I am under no obligation to accept what I have purchased..and have free will to dispute any transaction.

What I find humorous about this thread...is everyone complaining now. If you are not happy...complain at the time of the transaction...dont whine about it later.

And John...I understand you have issues with how some people do business...but if you are that much better...then why advertise it? People will flock to you if you are that much better then everyone else. We live in a society of free will...and people have the option to pick any dealer they want too. I have purchased multiple times from each of the sponsors on this forum and have had no issues...and according to you...I am in the minority. I dont see it that way.

As long as the sponsors of this forum continue to make customers happy...I have no issue. When there are are problems and fish die in transit..I expect them to handle the site the situation...and as far as I know..they have. So for another sponsor to come out and say they have better fish...ship better....make people happier...it the same as one retailer saying they have a better product then any other retailer. Prove it...and you will put everyone out of business. No need to talk about it...just provide a better product and you will win.

So now..prove that fish can live in tap water...fine...I dont use conditioner and have chloramine in my water....but Im not going to recommend this for everyone. That is like saying my 90 year old uncle smoked everyday of his life...and he is fine...so you should get your kids hooked on smoking because they will live to be 90. Just because you do it...doesnt mean it will work for everyone....so why not advocate for fishkeeping methods that are better for the health of the fish...instead of proving that these fish can live in any fuckedup condition I decide they can live in. IMO...that is irresponsible.
[/quote]

Jeff,
Like most, you are missing the point completely.

I do not advocate any fish being kept in substandard conditions.

I don't give a flaming rat's ass if anyone buys any fish from me now or ever.I do almost no business on the internet compared to other outlets... especially on this site.

This is about lousy business practices. This is about not taking responsibilty for one's actions and blaming the victim.

So how am I going about proving that the Messiah is a fake...by proving the lies are lies and not facts.And I am doing it in a graphic and so over the top way that no matter how you want to twist the results they all come up the same conclusion.
This goes on with several people-not just one individual.
But if the Foo shits...wear it.

What can come from this demonstration? Some will continue to follow the leader and get what they deserve.Others will open their eyes and not take losing their hard earned money on garbage.They will demand a higher standard than what is being accepted today.And sellers who can meet the standard will do well.The others will fall.It is the American way.
And somewhere down the road, the fish will benefit as they will have to be taken care of while waiting to be sold instead of languishing and being abused and starved.

And lets go one step further with this, Jeff. If someone does not know what they are doing, why are sellers not talking to buyers before grabbing their money and find out there may be a problem.Then you educate the person so they will be successful and the fish survives.

Don't try to BS me on this.I try to talk to every person I deal with and have been responsible for talking people OUT of buying because I thought they would not be able to care for a fish.That is part of being a seller.
But let's no lose sight again of what this is about.

This is about bad fish being pawned off on customers and then blaming the customer for the death of the sack of bones-plain and simple.

Jeff, the Emporor has no clothes...and I am going to hold up a magnifying glass to show the world exactly how tiny he is.

John


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## Grosse Gurke

John...I understand your point completely...I really do. But to be completely honest....I havent seen a sponsor blame the member and refuse to make good. I just havent seen it. Sure they ask questions about the situation to see if it might be the customers fault....and I feel they have every right to do so. For most of us this is a hobby....but to some of the sponsors...this is how they feed their family. Name any business that will ship out a replacement product...no questions asked. I personally cant think of any.
Like I said in my post....if we find out a sponsor is screwing our members then they are out. Every importer and seller of fish has had problems in shipping. I cant believe you or anyone has a 100% survival rate...there are just too many variables. So as long as in the end the customer is satisfied then so am I.


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## SNAKEBITE

Alot of the buyers have replied how they felt about this, but I haven't heard the seller(other sponsors) comment about this topic, any other sponsors besides john have anything to say? I would like to hear both sides...


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## eczs-1

Grosse Gurke said:


> John...I understand your point completely...I really do. But to be completely honest....I havent seen a sponsor blame the member and refuse to make good. I just havent seen it. Sure they ask questions about the situation to see if it might be the customers fault....and I feel they have every right to do so. For most of us this is a hobby....but to some of the sponsors...this is how they feed their family. Name any business that will ship out a replacement product...no questions asked. I personally cant think of any.
> Like I said in my post....if we find out a sponsor is screwing our members then they are out. Every importer and seller of fish has had problems in shipping. I cant believe you or anyone has a 100% survival rate...there are just too many variables. So as long as in the end the customer is satisfied then so am I.


By the way, the person involved with the elongatus situation that started all this was just here at my facility and bought one of mine.
I questioned him about the tank and situation.
I questioned his friends and we discussed several aspects of maintenance and water chemistry.
While he may not be very articulate in his e-mails, he is pretty smart and knowledgable in person.
The tank was an established system.He moved his spilo out 2 days before the elongatus arrived and did a water change.
Tank was not fresh and was cycled and all that jazz.Fish was dying when it was packed.
And just a little other note,Jeff...

Replacing the fish-so what? We all make money on the shipping-it ain't done at cost!!!!And some of us make a whole lot more on the fish as well, so a replacement costs nothing. But the customer continues to pay for the mistake of the seller and the seller makes a profit on it as well.
Now I would be impressed if the replacement fish was sent freight free because the shipper was so ashamed that a low grade fish was allowed out of his facility.I have seen one thread about 3 delivery attempts before a live fish was obtained. In that case, it was about $150 in freight for a $29 fish...what a bargain.
Please do not try to get around the subject here.This is not a rare occurence and many people do not discuss these shipments on the boards.But when they have the balls to say something, the tone is always it is something that they did wrong.Same thing happened about 1 month ago to Baddfish with piranhas and was posted about on Waterwolves.Again,the fish were PRISTINE,HAND-PICKED GEMS when shipped yet arrived in Detroit all sunken in, fungused,and dead.
I am going to prove here that fish do not break down when shipped.

Shipping has nothing to do with fish quality.
Acclimation has nothing to do with fish quality.
Water parameters have nothing to do with fish quality...WHEN IN THE CONTEXT OF HOLDING SHORT TERM AND SHIPPING.

Putting trash fish in a box and taking money for it...that is what this is all about and like it or not, all the BS that follows is going to be proved to be just that.Shallow words used to cover up poor quality and business practices.

This is going down on 9/9. Already have a group of people ready to come and get their hands wet.

Oh,and by the way,I get a few dead fish and sick fish as well as everyone else.Alot less than everyone else. But guess what,Jeff...they don't leave my facility until they are the quality I demand or they are dead...period!!

John


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## Grosse Gurke

Im not sure why you are getting so worked up at me John....but you seem to think I am making efforts to cover up poor business practices. Quite the opposite. When I am asked to get involved in a situation I always work for the member...not the sponsor. However...there is not much I can do about situations I dont know about. We have removed the ability for sponsors to delete threads or posts in their forum and force them to confront any negative posts that might occur. We are not covering up anything or trying to hide anything.

BTW....I have never paid for shipping a replacement fish...and never been asked too.


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## KINGofKINGS

SNAKEBITE said:


> Alot of the buyers have replied how they felt about this, but I haven't heard the seller(other sponsors) comment about this topic, any other sponsors besides john have anything to say? I would like to hear both sides...


they probably dont feel the need to waste their time??? GG's posts are making sense to me...


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## hastatus

I'm going to add my 2 cents in for whatever its worth. First, I don't buy piranhas. Much of the time I ask dealers to donate piranhas to scientific research at accredited universities. Both George Fear and Pedro have done that by sending live fish. For that I'm grateful to them. At UMMZ, I saw the S. sanchezi that Pedro had sent. It was in great shape. I don't know about George fish, but I would assume based on past donations, they too came in good shape. Another sponsor sent a live Serrasalmus species to me and it too arrived in good health. So what I can add? Simply this, if fish are being sent in poor condition and arrive in worst condition, then it is not the person receiving the fish, but the sender. I agree with John that reputable wholesale dealers would not send poor quality fish. They wouldn't stay in business long. I have read plenty of horror stories from my wholesale contacts on fly-by-night outfits that send out sick fish to state-side dealers unaware of the quality of stock. Those are usually new dealers that have little experience. Fortunately, those are in the minority. Dave Schleser recently arrived back from Peru and I'm waiting to get his input on what he saw at a wholesale place in Iquitos. I also gave him parts of this discussion to digest. If I get a reply from Dave, I'll post his remarks here if given permission. Lastly, a reputable dealer would not or should not send sick fish out to make a fast buck. I deplore dealers that do that KNOWINGLY and they should be exposed. Having said that, one must be very careful in alledging bad business.


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## J-Lo

Ive purchase from almost all the sponcers in the past and when something bad happend they always made it feel like it was my faught. But every transaction with John has been a great surprise no B.S with John he tells it how it is. keep it real John


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## eczs-1

Grosse Gurke said:


> Im not sure why you are getting so worked up at me John....but you seem to think I am making efforts to cover up poor business practices. Quite the opposite. When I am asked to get involved in a situation I always work for the member...not the sponsor. However...there is not much I can do about situations I dont know about. We have removed the ability for sponsors to delete threads or posts in their forum and force them to confront any negative posts that might occur. We are not covering up anything or trying to hide anything.
> 
> BTW....I have never paid for shipping a replacement fish...and never been asked too.


Not getting upset with you, Jeff.But I need to keep the thread in focus.
And you should not have to pay shipping for replacements.But you are very different than the average person because of your standing.
Look, I'm going to do my little "thing" here and the chips will fall where they may.
Worse thing that can happen is I look like a fool because everything goes into shock and dies and a bunch of your members get a free dinner out of the deal.
Best case scenerio is that your members get a better idea of what good fish are and what they should have as standards when they buy fish sight unseen from a seller.

John


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## evermore

could we then get a agreed with sponsors here for members to recieve atleast 15day guarantee it would help this problem and start to provide a new standard for all.


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## Doktordet

I have once (and a recent one at that) recieved a shipment from a sponsor here and none of the fish survived more than a few hours after I got the package at home. Sponsor was willing to right the whole situation and to replace fish lost. In the end, i opted for a refund which sponsor did...but less the shipping I paid. IDK if that's what other sponsors do as well. Its all water under the bridge.


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## hastatus

Speaking of water, some things to consider; having relatives (wife's side) raised in NYC I know that most of the tap water in NYC is generally of excellent quality. So is NJ water. I recall reading many TFH articles on breeding difficult species in that water. Its usuallly moderately soft and close to neutral (areas close to NJ pine Barrons are usually more acidic). Regarding comments about just dumping the newly arrived in, if your tap water is similar and not extreme in pH and hardness it is probably safe to just dump your newly arrived fish in it. Here in Roseburg, our water is soft and acidic. I tend to just float the fish for a few minutes and allow both water to gradually merge. On rare occasions, I just dump the fish in with no ill effects (but not during winter). Howeverr, I feel this would definitely not work if your water is extremely hard or soft, and highly acidic or alkaline. The liquid rock in many parts of southern CA and West TX (from past remarks by Dave and his fish) are examples of such water.

Also, just dumping fish from soft, acidic water into this liquid rock is not to be recommended.

Lastly, dumping hard water fish in super soft water might not kill them immediately, but unless they are a very adaptable species they will decline and eventually perish. So if you go to see John's business, keep the above in the back of your mind when you "see him just dump fish".


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## Dizzy Dawg

Doktordet said:


> I have once (and a recent one at that) recieved a shipment from a sponsor here and none of the fish survived more than a few hours after I got the package at home. Sponsor was willing to right the whole situation and to replace fish lost. In the end, i opted for a refund which sponsor did...but less the shipping I paid. IDK if that's what other sponsors do as well. Its all water under the bridge.


Sounds like a great sponsor IMO


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## Doktordet

Dizzy Dawg said:


> I have once (and a recent one at that) recieved a shipment from a sponsor here and none of the fish survived more than a few hours after I got the package at home. Sponsor was willing to right the whole situation and to replace fish lost. In the end, i opted for a refund which sponsor did...but less the shipping I paid. IDK if that's what other sponsors do as well. Its all water under the bridge.


Sounds like a great sponsor IMO








[/quote]

That is why that sponsor is still here.


----------



## eczs-1

hastatus said:


> Speaking of water, some things to consider; having relatives (wife's side) raised in NYC I know that most of the tap water in NYC is generally of excellent quality. So is NJ water. I recall reading many TFH articles on breeding difficult species in that water. Its usuallly moderately soft and close to neutral (areas close to NJ pine Barrons are usually more acidic). Regarding comments about just dumping the newly arrived in, if your tap water is similar and not extreme in pH and hardness it is probably safe to just dump your newly arrived fish in it. Here in Roseburg, our water is soft and acidic. I tend to just float the fish for a few minutes and allow both water to gradually merge. On rare occasions, I just dump the fish in with no ill effects (but not during winter). Howeverr, I feel this would definitely not work if your water is extremely hard or soft, and highly acidic or alkaline. The liquid rock in many parts of southern CA and West TX (from past remarks by Dave and his fish) are examples of such water.
> 
> Also, just dumping fish from soft, acidic water into this liquid rock is not to be recommended.
> 
> Lastly, dumping hard water fish in super soft water might not kill them immediately, but unless they are a very adaptable species they will decline and eventually perish. So if you go to see John's business, keep the above in the back of your mind when you "see him just dump fish".


Frank,
I agree we have good water to a point here but the quick splash and dash method of acclimating fish from long term flights is used in every state in the Union by wholesalers and transshippers.
I do this with stingrays.I do it with delicate species.I do it with rare, one of a kind fish that I deal with.
The only species I acclimate at a med pace are jurense and tigrinis cats.
The only reason I am doing this for this demonstration is to prove that even when the fish is flash acclimated it will not cause it to become skinny, break down, and die.It is to refute statements that have been made now and in the past by sellers and the members on this site.
If I had the time I would go through the archives here on PF and WW's and pull out the threads and posts. But I don't, so we have to go around and around.

Bottom line-those who know what I am talking about will get the point.
Those on the fence will get the point.
Others will push it aside and stay the course and be happy with what they get.

And by the way, the elongatus in question here was put in that great,soft, New Jersey water as well.Seems to have come from it also.
Frank, how did it become emaciated and with fungus on the face?

Same guy bought one from me today.By all rights, you should all be hearing about now that the fish is dead as it was going in the same tank.

If that fish dies by Sunday night, I will donate 2 lg geryi to PF for a raffle.

It's called putting your money where your mouth is. I have the money and the product to back it up.

John


----------



## hastatus

FROM DAVE SCHLESER:



> After years of visiting several tropical fish exporters in Iquitos while leading tropical fish collecting trips for Margarita Tours, all I can say is that as in all businesses some are notably better than others. This year I visited Neotropical Fauna, Stingray, and the huge operation run by Panduro. In all these places the fish looked remarkably healthy and well fed. Almost all predatory fish had feeders in with them (generally some species of characin that we would covet in our aquariums. Huge black piranhas were being fed chalceus epakros!) . Tanks of fish that looked in poor health were clearly being medicated (Furazone green was the most popular medication for bacterial ailments).
> 
> We use Panduro as our shipper of the fish we collect on the Amazon fish trips. He always fasts the fish a couple of days before bagging them and packs better than any place - domestic or foreign - I have ever seen. In cold weather he lines the styros with both layers of newspaper and a heavy felt pad for insulation.. All fish that might be aggressive - even Apistogrammas - were indivually bagged. How's that compare with US shippers?! Our February shipment arrived in US during a notably cold period but everyone, even a couple of people from Boston area, had the water in fish bags still in the 70's.
> 
> Due to both the required inspections in Lima of fish shipments being sent from Iquitos, and the need for all fish to be transferred in Lima to an international flight, most shipments from Peru take about 36 hours from the time they are first bagged to when they clear customs in Miami ( or any other port of entry in the US). If the shipment then must be transhipped to another domestic airport expect another delay and a total time of 48 hours or more, depending on airline schedules, and whether or not a plane's cargo hold is already full, necessitating additional delays. Our February shipment was bumped because Valentine's Day flower shipments left no room for fish in LIma! Our present fish shipment for the August Fish collecting trip which would have normally gone out this week is being held at Panduro's until next week to avoid the mess of Labor Day airline traffic
> 
> As far as I can tell, most Iquitos exporters have their own wells. Water generally very soft and average a pH of about 5.8. The well water frequently has a a high Iron and Magnesium content, and at least one exporter (Raul Yalan of Neotropical Fuana) runs all his well water through exchange resins to remove these metals.)
> 
> Now we come to issue of acclimitization..... If I ever receive fish in water that is obviously of poor quality due to anything from overcrowding, dead fish or a sky-high ammonia level, I feel it is best to get the fish out into some good water ASAP, regardless of whether it differs in pH or hardness, rather than subject the fish to a slow process of acclimating them to my water. Remember, I am a hobbyist, and a former aquarium curator who has had extensive experience with a huge number of marine and freshwater fishes. I am not not a store owner who mostly deals with the more commonly sold "bread and butter" species, many of which are hardy captive bred strains, not delicate wild imports from sterile blackwater conditions..
> 
> One consideration that might preclude the quick transfer of fish from shipping bags to your aquarium is temperature. If water in bags is very cold, dumping the fish into warm aquarium water can be quite harmful. It is generally assumed that warm to cool is less damaging. The reason is that fish are coldblooded. When suddenly dumped from cold to warm water the fins and body surface temperature suddenly increases, The warmer temperature increases cell metabolism and oxygen requirement. But the core temperature takes much longer to equalize and iy is thought that the cool heart is unable to pump adequate blood to the warmer fins and body surface, leading to cellular death manifested by sloughing of portions of the fins in a day or 2.


Also, I discussed the problems with Venezuela fish shipments, since this has been a concern of mine for some time. Particularly regarding Hugo Chavez and the changes taking place. I'll be posting Ivan's remarks later. Got other things to do right now.



> Frank, how did it become emaciated and with fungus on the face?


Don't know as I did not see the photo of the before and after. And what conditions were evident a the dealer side and the conditions on the recipent side. As I earlier said, I don't support dealers that KNOWLINGLY sell sick fish. I stand by that comment and that they should be exposed.


----------



## mass aggression

a-ronn said:


> John has described perfectly the pirayas we got from MA. Bag of bones, body bites, over a full inch smaller than they were supposed to be.... Took 3 months to get them back to health like he also mentioned.


those fish were from john ...oops!


----------



## eczs-1

massive aggression usa said:


> John has described perfectly the pirayas we got from MA. Bag of bones, body bites, over a full inch smaller than they were supposed to be.... Took 3 months to get them back to health like he also mentioned.


those fish were from john ...oops!
[/quote]
Yes, they were Nate.
And I posted pictures of the piraya on PF and WW's when I got them and before I sold them to you.
So how did they go from being healthy to what A-ronn descibes between the time I sold them to you and the time you sent them to him?
I did not bring this up...you did.

John


----------



## eczs-1

hastatus said:


> FROM DAVE SCHLESER:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After years of visiting several tropical fish exporters in Iquitos while leading tropical fish collecting trips for Margarita Tours, all I can say is that as in all businesses some are notably better than others. This year I visited Neotropical Fauna, Stingray, and the huge operation run by Panduro. In all these places the fish looked remarkably healthy and well fed. Almost all predatory fish had feeders in with them (generally some species of characin that we would covet in our aquariums. Huge black piranhas were being fed chalceus epakros!) . Tanks of fish that looked in poor health were clearly being medicated (Furazone green was the most popular medication for bacterial ailments).
> 
> We use Panduro as our shipper of the fish we collect on the Amazon fish trips. He always fasts the fish a couple of days before bagging them and packs better than any place - domestic or foreign - I have ever seen. In cold weather he lines the styros with both layers of newspaper and a heavy felt pad for insulation.. All fish that might be aggressive - even Apistogrammas - were indivually bagged. How's that compare with US shippers?! Our February shipment arrived in US during a notably cold period but everyone, even a couple of people from Boston area, had the water in fish bags still in the 70's.
> 
> Due to both the required inspections in Lima of fish shipments being sent from Iquitos, and the need for all fish to be transferred in Lima to an international flight, most shipments from Peru take about 36 hours from the time they are first bagged to when they clear customs in Miami ( or any other port of entry in the US). If the shipment then must be transhipped to another domestic airport expect another delay and a total time of 48 hours or more, depending on airline schedules, and whether or not a plane's cargo hold is already full, necessitating additional delays. Our February shipment was bumped because Valentine's Day flower shipments left no room for fish in LIma! Our present fish shipment for the August Fish collecting trip which would have normally gone out this week is being held at Panduro's until next week to avoid the mess of Labor Day airline traffic
> 
> As far as I can tell, most Iquitos exporters have their own wells. Water generally very soft and average a pH of about 5.8. The well water frequently has a a high Iron and Magnesium content, and at least one exporter (Raul Yalan of Neotropical Fuana) runs all his well water through exchange resins to remove these metals.)
> 
> Now we come to issue of acclimitization..... If I ever receive fish in water that is obviously of poor quality due to anything from overcrowding, dead fish or a sky-high ammonia level, I feel it is best to get the fish out into some good water ASAP, regardless of whether it differs in pH or hardness, rather than subject the fish to a slow process of acclimating them to my water. Remember, I am a hobbyist, and a former aquarium curator who has had extensive experience with a huge number of marine and freshwater fishes. I am not not a store owner who mostly deals with the more commonly sold "bread and butter" species, many of which are hardy captive bred strains, not delicate wild imports from sterile blackwater conditions..
> 
> One consideration that might preclude the quick transfer of fish from shipping bags to your aquarium is temperature. If water in bags is very cold, dumping the fish into warm aquarium water can be quite harmful. It is generally assumed that warm to cool is less damaging. The reason is that fish are coldblooded. When suddenly dumped from cold to warm water the fins and body surface temperature suddenly increases, The warmer temperature increases cell metabolism and oxygen requirement. But the core temperature takes much longer to equalize and iy is thought that the cool heart is unable to pump adequate blood to the warmer fins and body surface, leading to cellular death manifested by sloughing of portions of the fins in a day or 2.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I discussed the problems with Venezuela fish shipments, since this has been a concern of mine for some time. Particularly regarding Hugo Chavez and the changes taking place. I'll be posting Ivan's remarks later. Got other things to do right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, how did it become emaciated and with fungus on the face?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't know as I did not see the photo of the before and after. And what conditions were evident a the dealer side and the conditions on the recipent side. As I earlier said, I don't support dealers that KNOWLINGLY sell sick fish. I stand by that comment and that they should be exposed.
Click to expand...

Frank,
Very well written and informed info from your friend.It really gives people a good idea of what it takes to get those fish that are swimming in their tanks.
However, I must say the Panduro is hardly a steller shipper.He is rather poor in fact.He supplies my competitor here in NY and thanks to him, I have just about taken over the market for Peru fish in these parts.Most weeks, Miro can not even get close to getting enough boxes to make the min. weight requirements to import.
Panduro's fish are small,inconsistantly packed,arrive DOA,etc on every shipment.I pack 2-3X the amount of fish per box and at a much larger size with almost 0% mortality.Yes, a few things do not make it-we are talking on a small shipment 2,000-3,000 fish but a bad shipment is 2% mortality.
Maybe Dave should talk to me especially with freight rates being as high as they are these days.

But again, we are talking here about domestic shipments lasting less than 12-14 hours from packing to opening by the buyer.There should be no issues with situations like that let alone a pattern of the same issues regarding the condition of the fish.

John


----------



## Ex0dus

Sounds like to me your taking cheap shots at the other paying sponsors of the site. Are your sales really that down?


----------



## hastatus

Received this email from Ivan. He replied to some of my questions about Venezuela fish and Hugo Chavez. Thought this might add more input into this thread:

FROM IVAN -MikoFish -Venezuela.



> Hi Frank,
> 
> Chavez has not stopped any exporting of fish anywhere.
> 
> There is no one exporting fish at the moment from Venezuela and my point of view is that it's because of the price that the importers pay for the fish and not because of "regulations".
> 
> Buying boats with motors for the fishermen, supplying them with bags and oxygen, antibiotics, nets, making them holding tanks and aquariums, then going down to where they are and paying them for the fish, transportation back to where you have to distribute them, medicate them, feed them, pay all the workers in the fish house, bagging, tranquilizers and medicine, transportation to the airport etc. and then get paid minimal amounts for the fish which does not make any sense. If you ship 20 boxes the costs can be several hundreds of dollars.
> 
> Try to go and catch piranhas, pay for all of the above plus rent (fish house) and car maintenance and tell me how much money you would be left with in your pocket as profit! LOL
> 
> Venezuela is probably too expensive to have this sort of business and still make a profit. Probably because of higher income or wages compared to other countries.
> 
> People in Venezuela that have knowledge enough to export fish (speak English, have a computer with internet and have the $ or infrastructure to start a business) would rather put their money in a business which is "more profitable" or with less risk, and less complications.
> 
> Imagine this: I was catching fish in the middle of the jungle, and trying to get them alive to someone who has an aquarium in his house in Tokyo! You imagine how many things can go wrong in that operation when people have problems getting the fish from the store and keeping them alive for a couple of days in their house! LOL
> 
> I never got ripped off by any customer in any part of the world but&#8230;. I did export some skinny fish&#8230;.. Farlowella acus! LOL
> 
> Ivan


Regarding this comments:



> Frank,
> Very well written and informed info from your friend.It really gives people a good idea of what it takes to get those fish that are swimming in their tanks.
> However, I must say the Panduro is hardly a steller shipper.He is rather poor in fact.He supplies my competitor here in NY and thanks to him, I have just about taken over the market for Peru fish in these parts.Most weeks, Miro can not even get close to getting enough boxes to make the min. weight requirements to import.
> Panduro's fish are small,inconsistantly packed,arrive DOA,etc on every shipment.I pack 2-3X the amount of fish per box and at a much larger size with almost 0% mortality.Yes, a few things do not make it-we are talking on a small shipment 2,000-3,000 fish but a bad shipment is 2% mortality.
> *Maybe Dave should talk to me especially with freight rates being as high as they are these days.*
> 
> But again, we are talking here about domestic shipments lasting less than 12-14 hours from packing to opening by the buyer.There should be no issues with situations like that let alone a pattern of the same issues regarding the condition of the fish.
> 
> John


I'll pass on your remarks to David Schleser to see if he is interested. But I can tell you this, Dave is not a youngster. He's been doing fish for many, many years, and was a Curator of Dallas Aquarium. I think he's got a good idea of what freight costs are and who to buy from.


----------



## Doktordet

hastatus said:


> Received this email from Ivan. He replied to some of my questions about Venezuela fish and Hugo Chavez. Thought this might add more input into this thread:
> 
> FROM IVAN -MikoFish -Venezuela.
> 
> Hi Frank,
> 
> Chavez has not stopped any exporting of fish anywhere.
> 
> There is no one exporting fish at the moment from Venezuela and my point of view is that it's because of the price that the importers pay for the fish and not because of "regulations".
> 
> Buying boats with motors for the fishermen, supplying them with bags and oxygen, antibiotics, nets, making them holding tanks and aquariums, then going down to where they are and paying them for the fish, transportation back to where you have to distribute them, medicate them, feed them, pay all the workers in the fish house, bagging, tranquilizers and medicine, transportation to the airport etc. and then get paid minimal amounts for the fish which does not make any sense. If you ship 20 boxes the costs can be several hundreds of dollars.
> 
> Try to go and catch piranhas, pay for all of the above plus rent (fish house) and car maintenance and tell me how much money you would be left with in your pocket as profit! LOL
> 
> *Venezuela is probably too expensive to have this sort of business and still make a profit. Probably because of higher income or wages compared to other countries.*
> 
> People in Venezuela that have knowledge enough to export fish (speak English, have a computer with internet and have the $ or infrastructure to start a business) would rather put their money in a business which is "more profitable" or with less risk, and less complications.
> 
> Imagine this: I was catching fish in the middle of the jungle, and trying to get them alive to someone who has an aquarium in his house in Tokyo! You imagine how many things can go wrong in that operation when people have problems getting the fish from the store and keeping them alive for a couple of days in their house! LOL
> 
> I never got ripped off by any customer in any part of the world but&#8230;. I did export some skinny fish&#8230;.. Farlowella acus! LOL
> 
> Ivan


I would think that the US dollar would go the distance somehow in Venezuela. From where I came from, the conversion is about $1.00 = Php50.00. Thats a heck of a lot for a buck. Not familiar with converison rates in Venezuela, but I would also think that it probably isnt too far off from that. So theoretically, the cost of a $40 caribe here would be able to keep everyone in the chain happy...unless someone is cheating someone somewhere in the chain.


----------



## eczs-1

Ex0dus said:


> Received this email from Ivan. He replied to some of my questions about Venezuela fish and Hugo Chavez. Thought this might add more input into this thread:
> 
> FROM IVAN -MikoFish -Venezuela.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Frank,
> 
> Chavez has not stopped any exporting of fish anywhere.
> 
> There is no one exporting fish at the moment from Venezuela and my point of view is that it's because of the price that the importers pay for the fish and not because of "regulations".
> 
> Buying boats with motors for the fishermen, supplying them with bags and oxygen, antibiotics, nets, making them holding tanks and aquariums, then going down to where they are and paying them for the fish, transportation back to where you have to distribute them, medicate them, feed them, pay all the workers in the fish house, bagging, tranquilizers and medicine, transportation to the airport etc. and then get paid minimal amounts for the fish which does not make any sense. If you ship 20 boxes the costs can be several hundreds of dollars.
> 
> Try to go and catch piranhas, pay for all of the above plus rent (fish house) and car maintenance and tell me how much money you would be left with in your pocket as profit! LOL
> 
> Venezuela is probably too expensive to have this sort of business and still make a profit. Probably because of higher income or wages compared to other countries.
> 
> People in Venezuela that have knowledge enough to export fish (speak English, have a computer with internet and have the $ or infrastructure to start a business) would rather put their money in a business which is "more profitable" or with less risk, and less complications.
> 
> Imagine this: I was catching fish in the middle of the jungle, and trying to get them alive to someone who has an aquarium in his house in Tokyo! You imagine how many things can go wrong in that operation when people have problems getting the fish from the store and keeping them alive for a couple of days in their house! LOL
> 
> I never got ripped off by any customer in any part of the world but&#8230;. I did export some skinny fish&#8230;.. Farlowella acus! LOL
> 
> Ivan
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding this comments:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank,
> Very well written and informed info from your friend.It really gives people a good idea of what it takes to get those fish that are swimming in their tanks.
> However, I must say the Panduro is hardly a steller shipper.He is rather poor in fact.He supplies my competitor here in NY and thanks to him, I have just about taken over the market for Peru fish in these parts.Most weeks, Miro can not even get close to getting enough boxes to make the min. weight requirements to import.
> Panduro's fish are small,inconsistantly packed,arrive DOA,etc on every shipment.I pack 2-3X the amount of fish per box and at a much larger size with almost 0% mortality.Yes, a few things do not make it-we are talking on a small shipment 2,000-3,000 fish but a bad shipment is 2% mortality.
> *Maybe Dave should talk to me especially with freight rates being as high as they are these days.*
> 
> But again, we are talking here about domestic shipments lasting less than 12-14 hours from packing to opening by the buyer.There should be no issues with situations like that let alone a pattern of the same issues regarding the condition of the fish.
> 
> John
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'll pass on your remarks to David Schleser to see if he is interested. But I can tell you this, Dave is not a youngster. He's been doing fish for many, many years, and was a Curator of Dallas Aquarium. I think he's got a good idea of what freight costs are and who to buy from.
Click to expand...

Whatever.
Just got another public aquarium today that wants me to supply fish to them.

John


----------



## hastatus

> Whatever.
> Just got another public aquarium today that wants me to supply fish to them.
> 
> John


Must feel nice to be wanted







j/k


----------



## Ex0dus

If this is the way you conduct business let me just tell you lost ANY future sales from me... ever

Ill continue to shop where I have for years, where I have always got customer service AND great fish.

congrats man!


----------



## hastatus

> Ex0dus Posted Yesterday, 11:09 PM
> If this is the way you conduct business let me just tell you lost ANY future sales from me... ever
> 
> Ill continue to shop where I have for years, where I have always got customer service AND great fish.
> 
> congrats man!


Ouch, harsh! Realistically, that's why we have other sponsors so you can pick and choose your favorite shipper. That's why I love nice dead fish, you don't have to worry about water parameters and all this other gobbly ***** stuff that most inexperienced people buy.


----------



## eczs-1

hastatus said:


> Ex0dus Posted Yesterday, 11:09 PM
> If this is the way you conduct business let me just tell you lost ANY future sales from me... ever
> 
> Ill continue to shop where I have for years, where I have always got customer service AND great fish.
> 
> congrats man!
> 
> 
> 
> Ouch, harsh! Realistically, that's why we have other sponsors so you can pick and choose your favorite shipper. That's why I love nice dead fish, you don't have to worry about water parameters and all this other gobbly ***** stuff that most inexperienced people buy.
Click to expand...

Frank,
Are you saying that I sell dead fish and other"gobbly ***** stuff"???

Let's just get that sentence straight right now, shall we????

For a lesson in how I conduct business, please go to Waterwolves.com and feel free spending about 30-40 mins reading about my product and service.

I love how the focus of your venom is on me-the messanger-and not on what I am trying to say or prove.

Like it or not...and I am sure you do not...every piranha I have sold on PF has gotten to it's destination alive and in perfect condition.Go read some of the posts-they are public record.

Alot of fish from others have gotten to their destination in rather questionable condition...read the posts.They are public record.

I know,Frank, you and the people who run this site have a vested interest in keeping the status quo (watch for the righteous indignation to follow this statement!!). However, I am going to defuse the BS that occurs when bad fish are sent badly, so at least the customer has some idea of what is going on.
Obviously,there are those who are threatened by this...GOOD!!...they should be.
And if people do not want to do business with me...fine.Had this on WW's as well and I am one of the top sellers there today after I was told I would not last 2 months. Go figure.

I'll have to start this thread and posts over there as well so more people can watch this go down.However,I find those buyers are not as fast to accept the nonsense I have seen splattered on people here when bad quality fish are sent by a seller.

One more thing. I am not looking for 1 sale from this situation. I am doing it because I believe in what I am saying, and I am tired of seeing people lied to and taken advantage of.If you think differently, talk to the people who I have done business with and have my fish in their tanks.They can tell you what type of person I am.
If you have not done business with me before-keep the crap to yourself.You do not talk from experience and it is a waste of room on this thread. And if you are not an established customer, I do not care who you buy from. I only care if an established customer decides they will not work with me again. Then I know something is wrong.
Haven't found one of those yet.

John


----------



## AKSkirmish

Personally-

I think you read that wrong John....Thats noty how I read Franks response-

Maybe I am wrong though-Wouldn't be the first time either.....


----------



## eczs-1

AKSkirmish said:


> Personally-
> 
> I think you read that wrong John....Thats noty how I read Franks response-
> 
> Maybe I am wrong though-Wouldn't be the first time either.....


Unfortunately, that is how I read it.Why write a line like that as a responce to someone who is"blowing me off".

I am offended that a senior member of a site like this would post such a juvenile statement that I would expect from some 15 year old sitting at his computer in a darkened basement somewhere.

I think the subject matter of this thread is important to many people.Looking to find any way to disparage me to try and shut me up just does not work, guys. But it does make others wonder why you are trying to do it...and they do not post in this thread.

The people are coming...the fish have been requested from the collectors...and this is going to happen next Sunday.

John


----------



## hastatus

Hold on there Lone Ranger. I was not blowing you off and your being hypersensitive. Re-Read my words SLOWYLY:



> That's why I love nice dead fish, you don't have to worry about water parameters and all this other gobbly ***** stuff that most inexperienced people buy


I get donated dead fish for science (Preserved or frozen). Therefore, I don't need to buy filters, chemicals and other stuff that beginners normally OVERBUY on.

It has nothing to do with you personally. And if you feel it disparaged, then you need to chill because I've supported you from the start. That is until now.



> I am offended that a senior member of a site like this would post such a juvenile statement that I would expect from some 15 year old sitting at his computer in a darkened basement somewhere.


Actually John, right now you sound like my 18 year-old grandchild, who at this point sounds much more mature than you.







I do accept apologies and when your ready. You know where to find me.


----------



## Ægir

i cant wait... and i will also be purchasing a few fish from the order (if possible) to be shipped any way he sees fit... if he can get them to me in montana, in the condition he says, then i have full confidence he has proven everything he has said in this topic...


----------



## hastatus

Oh before I forget, There is no monetary connection between me and PFURY. I'm here at my pleasure. That is probably a huge misconception some people (including you) have.

As for WaterWolves. I'm a member there, but rarely post. I've seen your posts. And I have gotten emails over the sexing of elongatus your selling. I said to them, just as I said to you at the SCI FORUM they ain't sexually dimorphic. What does this have to do with anything? Just letting you know, just because I don't post somewhere don't mean I'm not informed.


----------



## Grosse Gurke

eczs-1 said:


> I know,Frank, you and the people who run this site have a vested interest in keeping the status quo (watch for the righteous indignation to follow this statement!!).


Wow









Has this thread been closed or deleted? Are you still a sponsor on this forum? Has anyone from the site contacted you and asked you to stop taking shots at the other sponsors of this forum? I would think someone as confident in their abilities as you are...would be able to have this conversation without making every effort to not only belittle the other sponsors...but the forum itself. I am actually shocked you would have anything negative to say about the staff of this forum.


----------



## AKSkirmish

eczs-1 said:


> Personally-
> 
> I think you read that wrong John....Thats noty how I read Franks response-
> 
> Maybe I am wrong though-Wouldn't be the first time either.....


Unfortunately, that is how I read it.Why write a line like that as a responce to someone who is"blowing me off".

I am offended that a senior member of a site like this would post such a juvenile statement that I would expect from some 15 year old sitting at his computer in a darkened basement somewhere.

I think the subject matter of this thread is important to many people.Looking to find any way to disparage me to try and shut me up just does not work, guys. But it does make others wonder why you are trying to do it...and they do not post in this thread.

The people are coming...the fish have been requested from the collectors...and this is going to happen next Sunday.

John
[/quote]

Sorry you feel this way John....


----------



## Ex0dus

If your so great and all these wonderful things your saying here are true... why the need to bring down other sponsors? Why not just conduct your little experiment and leave it at that? All these little cheap shots are pathetic.

"If you have not done business with me before-keep the crap to yourself.You do not talk from experience and it is a waste of room on this thread. And if you are not an established customer, I do not care who you buy from."

That right there says more than I need to know about you.


----------



## fiveo93

i knew this thread would end up exactly like this. MODS please close it before anymore deep holes are dug


----------



## Puff

i just went away for three weeks. my small 3-4" rhom got fed once...and i came back and he is just as i left him. not skinny, not sick looking, colour is still the same. it's like i went away for 3 days and came home...


----------



## Piranha Tank

great conversation by all of you , unfortunately i understood johns point of view and franks too and what jeff said , but its proofs nothings except this will topic will go on and on , i would suggest to leave it on the members of p/fury to judge who is the best sponser , they must come out with their views and suggestions regarding the fish they recieve is healthy and not sick, most important is the customer satifaction about shipping and the fish he wants what he orders , in my opinion the sponser shud be more concerned about his buisness and reputation rather then making big bucks .


----------



## barbianj

Everyone here has some valid points and interesting insight. Something good can come of it if the little jabs cease to continue. Just my humble .02


----------



## hastatus

> barbianj Posted Today, 06:02 AM
> Everyone here has some valid points and interesting insight. Something good can come of it if the little jabs cease to continue. Just my humble .02


My point in producing remarks by David M. Schleser and Ivan Mikolji was to illustrate that piranhas that come from reputable wholesale outfits are well cared for before arriving to the U.S. I didn't put those kind men's remarks on line to have their businesses slammed by a "sponsor."

Oh well. You all have a great Labor Day weekend. Me, I'm heading out to Diamond Lake (Oregon) for some fishing and then to Mt. Shasta, California for some photography shots of a couple scenic areas.


----------



## mass aggression

eczs-1 said:


> John has described perfectly the pirayas we got from MA. Bag of bones, body bites, over a full inch smaller than they were supposed to be.... Took 3 months to get them back to health like he also mentioned.


those fish were from john ...oops!
[/quote]
Yes, they were Nate.
And I posted pictures of the piraya on PF and WW's when I got them and before I sold them to you.
So how did they go from being healthy to what A-ronn descibes between the time I sold them to you and the time you sent them to him?
I did not bring this up...you did.

John
[/quote]

this was not an attack on you, its saying those fish were from you, i got the same fish plenty of times, they were not "bag of bones" blah blah as these kids complained about in the past, we have spoken for many hours on the phone and in person and plenty of times, we spoke on this as well and has the same outlook, the fish were not shotty condition, they were picked up when you got them again, it took a month or so after the large batch, but they came in a .5" smaller, and were purchased on my dime, my gas , my hotel fee, and shipped out immediatly, this is saying bluntly the fish these kids purchased were your fish, and you say your fish were fine and perfect how in couple days after FEEDING i shipped, how did they get so "lathargic" kinda funny how some kids just jump on some sponsors but other sponsors they go to bat for, they dont know the real story the behind the scenes, in fact alot of sponsors work together on some things, all i was saying.

and to be honest when i import if i do get a skninny P it prolly takes all of one week with heavy feeding and salt treatments to get perfect, 3 months a little extreme, any keeper knows this, P's are tremendously hardy and very easy to nurse back from almost anything, ask AK about his rhom, good job on that as well AK


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## CLUSTER ONE

people are just taking what john says wrong

all he says is a good condition fish doesnt arrive at the customer as a pile of bones so therfore it was like that before shipping and he wants to prove it


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## Grosse Gurke

sean-820 said:


> people are just taking what john says wrong
> 
> all he says is a good condition fish doesnt arrive at the customer as a pile of bones so therfore it was like that before shipping and he wants to prove it


You should work on your comprehension skills if that is all you got from this thread. I wish that was all that was going on here.


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## CLUSTER ONE

Grosse Gurke said:


> people are just taking what john says wrong
> 
> all he says is a good condition fish doesnt arrive at the customer as a pile of bones so therfore it was like that before shipping and he wants to prove it


You should work on your comprehension skills if that is all you got from this thread. I wish that was all that was going on here.
[/quote]

i have read it im just saying his point that healthy fish arrive healthy and dead fish arrive dead and the shipping wont do that to them


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## Leasure1

no seriously man....you missed the entire point.....weather you like to admit it or not.


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## AKSkirmish

sean-820 said:


> people are just taking what john says wrong
> 
> all he says is a good condition fish doesnt arrive at the customer as a pile of bones so therfore it was like that before shipping and he wants to prove it


You should work on your comprehension skills if that is all you got from this thread. I wish that was all that was going on here.
[/quote]

i have read it im just saying his point that healthy fish arrive healthy and dead fish arrive dead and the shipping wont do that to them
[/quote]

Bull-I had or have a rhom that was destroyed ina shipping disaster-

I seen pics before it was shipped and know damn good and well how it arrived....(not placeing blame on n e one) Just stateing that sh*t happens-The sponser I purchased from was willing to do whatever it took to make it right (thanks Aquascape,for being the stand up place you always have been-Much appreciated).So things got worked out and all is happy in the end......


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## CLUSTER ONE

then what is the point then?

john does have a point but everybody else keeps on bringing up other things so john is responding to them

so if you know the point so well what is it?


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## a-ronn

Yes we ordered our fish from MA he got them from john by the sounds of it when nate got them they were in good health when we got them they were barley alive. Skinny nips everywhere took awhile to nurse them to health. Some reason nate thinks after spending 1800 $ on fish this is just the way they look after shipping.


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## AKSkirmish

sean-820 said:


> then what is the point then?
> 
> john does have a point but everybody else keeps on bringing up other things so john is responding to them
> 
> so if you know the point so well what is it?


Alls I am saying Sir is that sh*t happens in shipping-

I almost lost my rhom (12 inch), and he was in perfect condition when he left the place-A case of ammonia burn-Led to other things happening as well that couldn't be controlled because of shipping and haveing to sit in a box for so long-(mind you this is shipping to Alaska though)....In the end-All is good,and once again sh*t happens-

Also not saying I dont agree with John-Which I do...


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## CLUSTER ONE

sotrry that wasnt directed at you it was at leasure
and you did and amazing job at reviving the rhom


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## Noel2896

I haven't been on this site in a few days and come back and this topic is still going!! LMAO


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## Ex0dus

a-ronn said:


> Yes we ordered our fish from MA he got them from john by the sounds of it when nate got them they were in good health when we got them they were barley alive. Skinny nips everywhere took awhile to nurse them to health. Some reason nate thinks after spending 1800 $ on fish this is just the way they look after shipping.


You got any pics of the fish as they were when they arrived? A fish doesnt go healthy to skinny in a few days... Nips everywhere? Didnt you get a group of pygos?? Welcome to owning groups of fish with teeth. Nips happen.


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## hastatus

> i have read it im just saying his point that healthy fish arrive healthy and dead fish arrive dead *and the shipping wont do that to them*


Evidently you have little to no experience when it comes to shipping by carriers. There are plenty of horror stories of fish boxes being left on the tarmac during hot and/or cold weather. No matter how well a dealer packs a fish, once it leaves their care and goes into the care of the shipper (UPS, FEDEX, etc.,) you fish will arrive in whatever conditon the shipper sends it, including dead.


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## Puff

a-ronn said:


> John has described perfectly the pirayas we got from MA. Bag of bones, body bites, over a full inch smaller than they were supposed to be.... Took 3 months to get them back to health like he also mentioned.


funny you say that. the rhom i got from MA.ca was at least a half inch LARGER than what it was supposed to be, and in perfect health. you cant judge a store's entire stock on how your ONE SHIPMENT of fish came out. after getting shipped from South America to the USA, then from the USA to Canada, then from the West coast to Ontario, you cant expect a fish to be perfect. unless you want to wait a few weeks every time it is shipped to be perfect. but then you would bitch about having to wait too long.


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## eczs-1

hastatus said:


> i have read it im just saying his point that healthy fish arrive healthy and dead fish arrive dead *and the shipping wont do that to them*
> 
> 
> 
> Evidently you have little to no experience when it comes to shipping by carriers. There are plenty of horror stories of fish boxes being left on the tarmac during hot and/or cold weather. No matter how well a dealer packs a fish, once it leaves their care and goes into the care of the shipper (UPS, FEDEX, etc.,) you fish will arrive in whatever conditon the shipper sends it, including dead.
Click to expand...

I am so glad to have been given this insightful knowledge of shipping regime from a MASTER importer and shipper of tropical fish.

Frank,
Unless I am completely mistaken, you have nothing to do with the packing and shipping of fish.I am sure you know alot of people but how much hands on daily knowledge are you going to cop to right here and now.
I ship on a very bad week about 8-10,000 fish all over the US.When we are going full blast during the season it can go up to 40,000 pcs and more.I have been doing this for over 20 years and another 12 years working with some of the rarest and most delicate reptiles ever imported.And I bred alot of them as well.

The info you describe above is completely wrong.It fuels the fire for the desception that members of your board are being fed.

I ship fish in 100 degree heat and -10 degree cold.I lose about 1 shipment per year usually because the airline loses the box(s) and the fish get frozen.They make good on the whole lot as I put values on all my shipments.

What was proved tonight is that even under the worse case scenerio no fish loses body mass and breaks down with fungus and disease just because it was shipped especially on a short flight basis such as overnight courier.

There is no way for you or anyone else to refute the facts that are posted here. Shippers...even me...have to take responsibility for what they put into a box and send someone who has saved their money to buy a new pet. It is our job to send only the best specimens...not throw the dying to someone else before we have to take the loss.
And alot of people are now beginning to acknowledge that this has happened to them, but they were intimidated about saying anything.

I find it a little unsettling that you stated in print above that initially you supported my postion on this but, since I challenged you on one of your statements, you could no longer do so.

Does that mean you advocate sending trash grade, dying fish to to buyers just because my personality clashes with your own???

Believe it or not,Frank, I have the utmost respect for you and your knowledge.I have come to you several times to ask for help in ID'ing piranhas and as far as I can see you probably know more than the academics as you can also apply real life biology to the fish while they are only good with a corpse in a glass of preservative.
You are the master of your disipline, however, I am the master of mine.They are two very different areas.
My goal is for customers to get what they want and pay for.Truely does not matter to me if it comes from me or any other seller.
What is yours?

John


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## hastatus

> I ship fish in 100 degree heat and -10 degree cold.I lose about 1 shipment per year usually *because the airline loses the box(s) and the fish get frozen.*They make good on the whole lot as I put values on all my shipments.


Thanks for making my point. It had nothing to do with you. Now if you can stop billowing how great you are, you might understand where I am coming from.


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## blackmaskelong

ye lol


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## Grosse Gurke

No reason to bring back this old dead thread.

Closed.


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