# converting nitraes



## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

ok here we go again i am doing water changes to get rid of nitrates right

i just heard that in the wild nitrates are converted deep in the gravel were there is no oxyagen

how deep would my gravel have to be in my tank to convert these nitrates or is this even possible


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

Best options: Water changes and live plants.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwnitrates.htm


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

ok great responce great article just explanes it all great now i can get some crazy stuff going and see what happens


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

You should get a courser size particle substrate that will allow food particles to fall into the void spaces. I have gravel of 1/2 to 1 cm Diameter and it appears to be doing the trick for me. One week after a gravel vacuuming I have new bubbles trapped inside the gravel. After a week I have 20 PPM Nitrates and it doesn't appear to climb any more after that with 2 inches of gravel. Perhaps 4 inches of gravel would almost be twice as good. I would have to try that arrangement out to know for sure. I think the decaying organic matter presents a biological oxidation demand and creates anaerobic conditions in the gravel and the nitrates diffuse into the gravel from the aquarium water due to an imposed concentration gradient from the anaerobic reduction process. Logic would say there is an optimal thickness where diffusion is the rate limiting step for a given cross section area of substrate.


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

shanker said:


> You should get a courser size particle substrate that will allow food particles to fall into the void spaces....Perhaps 4 inches of gravel would almost be twice as good....


I was complaining about doing water changes to the owner of my LFS the other day and he suggested the exact same thing.


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

Be careful...less water = less of a way to dilute metabolic wastes...


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

I got to thinking about this, and had an idea:
Algae eats nitrate right? what if you got some sort of clear canister filter (like one of Rena's XP's) rigged up a lighting system for it, and deliberately grew algae in the filter to eat the nitrates? You could contain the algae in the filter by using a combination of sponges/water polishing pads and a UV sterilizer.
Probably a dumb idea, but just a thought.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

Piranha Dan said:


> I got to thinking about this, and had an idea:
> Algae eats nitrate right? what if you got some sort of clear canister filter (like one of Rena's XP's) rigged up a lighting system for it, and deliberately grew algae in the filter to eat the nitrates? You could contain the algae in the filter by using a combination of sponges/water polishing pads and a UV sterilizer.
> Probably a dumb idea, but just a thought.


alge and plants eat nitrates im talking about nitrites i want to make a more perfect clean enviorment

anybody can miss a water change and your fish suffer but if the water in my tank was cleaned by nature then i could do a water change wen ever i want and it wouldnt matter cause my water would not even have amm or nitrates or nitrites cause of a complete bio habitat


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

pirayaman said:


> I got to thinking about this, and had an idea:
> Algae eats nitrate right? what if you got some sort of clear canister filter (like one of Rena's XP's) rigged up a lighting system for it, and deliberately grew algae in the filter to eat the nitrates? You could contain the algae in the filter by using a combination of sponges/water polishing pads and a UV sterilizer.
> Probably a dumb idea, but just a thought.


alge and plants eat nitrates im talking about nitrites i want to make a more perfect clean enviorment

anybody can miss a water change and your fish suffer but if the water in my tank was cleaned by nature then i could do a water change wen ever i want and it wouldnt matter cause my water would not even have amm or nitrates or nitrites cause of a complete bio habitat
[/quote]
As far as I know, your beneficial bacteria eat ammonia and nitrite. If you miss a water change all you'll have to worry about is elevated Nitrate levels, and if you have plants to eat the nitrate, you shouldn't really have to worry about that.
Which brings to mind another thought: If you got things exactly right, as in, the bio-filter converts everything into nitrates, which are removed by the plants, would you have to do any water changes at all?


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

these nitrates could be decomposed in big pieces of lava rock with all the cracks and crevices in them you should have loads of no oxagen areas for this bacteria to grow

with the new 55 gallon wet dry i just built i will stock the end were the pump goes with 5-6 inchs of gravel and lava rock buried in the gravel along with some on top this should create enough of an area were oxagen cant get to and these special type of bacteria can grow and ill check the nitrate level to see if it works and ill post the results on this topic


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

pirayaman said:


> these nitrates could be decomposed in big pieces of lava rock with all the cracks and crevices in them you should have loads of no oxagen areas for this bacteria to grow
> 
> with the new 55 gallon wet dry i just built i will stock the end were the pump goes with 5-6 inchs of gravel and lava rock buried in the gravel along with some on top this should create enough of an area were oxagen cant get to and these special type of bacteria can grow and ill check the nitrate level to see if it works and ill post the results on this topic


That sounds like it would work great. Never thought of using lava rock before, but burying it in the gravel would create a perfect anerobic environment. Think I could just do this in the tank, instead of with a wet/dry?


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

i wouldnt want it in the tank


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## StryfeMP (Apr 26, 2007)

I'm sure that it would work in theory but will the nitrate eliminating bacteria be able to keep up with the amount of nitrates being built up in the water?


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

StryfeMP said:


> I'm sure that it would work in theory but will the nitrate eliminating bacteria be able to keep up with the amount of nitrates being built up in the water?


I think so. They'd work the same way ammonia and nitrite eating bacteria work, I'm guessing, in that they'd multiply and die off according to how much food they have.


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## StryfeMP (Apr 26, 2007)

Piranha Dan said:


> I'm sure that it would work in theory but will the nitrate eliminating bacteria be able to keep up with the amount of nitrates being built up in the water?


I think so. They'd work the same way ammonia and nitrite eating bacteria work, I'm guessing, in that they'd multiply and die off according to how much food they have.
[/quote]

That's true. Theoretically it will work, but the problem here is creating the kind of oxygen free environment for the bacteria to work as well as controlling the amount of water that passes through such filtration as to keep the oxygen free environment in tact while having enough nitrates removed to really be significant.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

new spin what about dirt and leaves if you did the bottom of your tank with like 4 inchs of dirt and leaves on top of that just like in nature that should do the trick of course all is spec untill proven

i must get back to the lab/fish room haha


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

wow ok hears what has gone on this week i rescaped the tank i have 3 1/2 inch deep flourite /gravel mix takes up about 1 foot oneach side of tank maybe 18 inchs the middle is just flourit/gravel mix at about 1 inch deep same old plants and a new addition yesterday was three of those bamboo plants to my over flow box they stick out of water about 6 inchs

i just add my wetdry 55 gallon sump and took out the proclear 200 wetdry 
i added all media from my rena xp4 wich consited of lava rock and biomax to the standing water at bottom of wetdry 55 galllon

i put in a fresh bag of leaves over night in my standing water of wetdry its my big bag like 6 by 8 inches

made a spray bar out of pvc to attach to my wetdry return pump i havent fed fish for a day or so about 24 hours

ok nitrate levels after last water change about 3 days ago were at 40 to 80 range

something werid well here you go my nitrates are now at 10 i will retest to make sure but nope they are still at 10 ok im gonna keep every thing the same except the bag of leaves i will feed them then check tonight at 10 by then my bio should have decomposed the ammonia to nitrite to nitrates and i should have a higher reading then i will wait another 24 from feeding hours and retest nitrates


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Piranha Dan said:


> I got to thinking about this, and had an idea:
> Algae eats nitrate right? what if you got some sort of clear canister filter (like one of Rena's XP's) rigged up a lighting system for it, and deliberately grew algae in the filter to eat the nitrates? You could contain the algae in the filter by using a combination of sponges/water polishing pads and a UV sterilizer.
> Probably a dumb idea, but just a thought.


alge and plants eat nitrates im talking about nitrites i want to make a more perfect clean enviorment

anybody can miss a water change and your fish suffer but if the water in my tank was cleaned by nature then i could do a water change wen ever i want and it wouldnt matter cause my water would not even have amm or nitrates or nitrites cause of a complete bio habitat
[/quote]
As far as I know, your beneficial bacteria eat ammonia and nitrite. If you miss a water change all you'll have to worry about is elevated Nitrate levels, and if you have plants to eat the nitrate, you shouldn't really have to worry about that.
Which brings to mind another thought: If you got things exactly right, as in, the bio-filter converts everything into nitrates, which are removed by the plants, would you have to do any water changes at all?
[/quote]
Yes, to replenish nutrients and to replace the buffering capacity that may have been lost by acidity.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

yeah dr giggles but couldnt you just add trace elements and some baking soda or reef builder to get the nutrients and the buffer back

ok well here is a new update i feed them last night nice big meal

amm is 0nitrites is .50 and my nitrates are 10 still so as so as those nitrites get converted i will have some conclusive results


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm running a similar experiment to see how high my nitrates get in 3 weeks and so far after 2 weeks they are holding steady at 20-25 PPM. If they don't get any higher that's a good thing but water is still evaporating from the tank and I at least have to get the Python hose out to bring the water back up and while it's out I might as well vacuum out the gravel. The gravel is dirty as hell after two weeks and after three weeks I could imagine how black the stuff will be coming out of the gravel when I vacuum. I'm not using any carbon in my filter so maybe that might explain why the water is becoming discolored after two weeks. Basically I think I can cut the amount of water changes in half but I shouldn't go longer than two weeks without changing the water and by then the tank looks like crap.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

i as well will keep up with water changes oh and you wanta know something my 210 has not bin touched by a gravel vac ever and my 11 cariba have bin eating atleast every other day as well as the tank has bin running with them in it for a little over a month

today tested and 0 ammonia .50 nitrites(fed them last night) 10 nitrates

and untill i notice some thing diff in my levels its not gonna get vacumed

vacuming your tank may be the sole reason no denitrating bacteria grows in most tank every time you stir up your gravel you kill it by introducing oxygen in the lower levels of substrate just some else i have bin thinking about


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

I HAVE DONE IT HAHAHAHA

ammonia .25
nitrites 0
nitrates 0

oh i have done it

i just took the tests and i was as shocked as im ever gonna be unless my cariba just up and decide to breed one day

i have elimainted the cycle just thought id let you all know if you dont belive me come test my water for your self oh

I HAVENT CHANGED THE WATER SINCE MT LAST POST ON HERE WICH WAS JAN12 THAT MEENS OH AND FED MY 11 CARIBA ALMOST EVRY DAY SINCE THEN NO GRAVEL VAC MY CLOSED SYSTEM IS PERFECT


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