# Is this a Piranha or did my LPS make a mistake?



## omaits (May 19, 2006)

What do you experts think? I got this fish from a LPS and was wondering if it indeed a piranha. I have it in a tank with a minnow. It has been in there for a couple weeks and hasn't shown much aggression towards it. As it grows, I think it resembles a Pacu....but I am not able to make the determination myself. What do you guys/gals think?

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3217323

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3217323

*Modified to add new pics. Hopefully they are a little better! He doesn't really like to have his picture taken...nor is he photogenic.


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

looks like a piranha to me, but with those front and 3/4 shots its kind of hard to see eye placement... could you get a side shot by any chance?


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

piranha

it doesnt seem to have that stupid mailbox shaped mouth


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

piranha.

maybe get it some friends, should spice things up a bit.


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## odyssey (May 30, 2006)

yer thats a piranha, its not a pacu cus the Caudal fin (tail) on a pacu goes (from the back of the body) white black white and a piranha (RBP) goes Black white black.


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## omaits (May 19, 2006)

Sweet. I was worried I got screwed. I thought about getting him a buddy. He seems really lonely. I think he doesn't want to kill the minnow because that is his only friend. It's probably better that I don't live feed him anyways...atleast until he is bigger. I guess it will be fish fillets for now.

Thanks for the help!!


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## Whall Banner (Nov 25, 2004)

Nice little red belly you've got yourself.


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## black_piranha (Jan 12, 2006)

yea, itz a baby red belly. get it some friends. he looks lonely.


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## Canso (Jun 19, 2005)

It definably looks different. I've never seen a red that looks like that.

need more pics.

the spots stop at the center line
tail looks different
funny looking mouth
dorsal fin is high, and skinny looking back.
looks like a solitary piranha


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

its a pirahna i can tell because thats exactly how ps looked when i bought them, i too was worried they werent pirahna cause they were so silver but it git a little time and pretty soon youll see its tru colours come through.


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## NeXuS (Aug 16, 2006)

yep thats a piranha. take good care of him


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## the REASON (Jun 18, 2006)

if you get him a buddy make sure you get him two so you can even out the aggresion. 2 pirahna = bad 3=good. good luck.


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Definitely a red. Go get him two other friends. Good luck!


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## Canso (Jun 19, 2005)

Ya! we know its a Piranha

but what kind?

I still think its a 
solitary species


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Canso said:


> Ya! we know its a Piranha
> 
> but what kind?
> 
> ...


At that size with the red developing like it is (starting in the anal fin, then in the pectorial fins, next on the gill cover), it is a red belly piranha. There is not a humeral spot so it is not a caribe. It is a pygo so it can and should be shoaled (3+).


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## Dawgz (Aug 18, 2005)

Canso said:


> Ya! we know its a Piranha
> 
> but what kind?
> 
> ...


Solitary? not a chance, its 100% a Pygo, Im leaning twards "red belly"


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## SpeCiaLisT (Aug 12, 2005)

Haven't seen a baby red belly look like that before...is it just a wild baby red belly?


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## Dawgz (Aug 18, 2005)

can u please post some side shots? that Anal fin looks TOOOOOO RED for a baby red lol...


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## Adam12 (Jul 15, 2006)

The fish seems to have an overbite rather than an underbite. Post some side shots.


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## Apott05 (Jul 19, 2005)

its not a red belly piranha

im no expert but im almost 99% sure its not. There are to many things that point to it being something else.


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## nerfday96 (Aug 11, 2006)

red bellies don't generally have that deep coloration at such a young age...
does he have black spots on him?
i have a few red bellies that are apprx. 15-20 days old and they have very little coloration on there undersides and black spots up closer towards there eyes and early back.
p.s.
3 is not always a perfect number as 2 of my rbp's ate my 3rd and now the 2 have learned to coexist beautifully.
whatever kind of p it turns out to be
they are certainly fun








good luck.


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## mass aggression (Apr 13, 2006)

doesnt look like a red.


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## SpeCiaLisT (Aug 12, 2005)

Yeah..thats what I thought. Doesn't look like a baby red to me either. Maybe a wimple?


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## mass aggression (Apr 13, 2006)

different color by the face dont look like a p to me but the body does lol so im confused, id like some more feedback i cant find many specie or have i seen look like this , trying to look up caprio prysto or diff sub specie "false ps" idk man im stumped


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## Canso (Jun 19, 2005)

omaits said:


> What do you experts think? I got this fish from a LPS and was wondering if it indeed a piranha. I have it in a tank with a minnow. It has been in there for a couple weeks and hasn't shown much aggression towards it. As it grows, I think it resembles a Pacu....but I am not able to make the determination myself. What do you guys/gals think?
> 
> http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3217323
> 
> http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3217323


here is a pic of a young Slver Dollar to compare
the tail doesn't have a band, but it looks close


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

to ID Section


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I dont know. From those pictures it certainly could be a pacu imo. I just dont see enough to give a positive ID. Get a picture from the side and you will know.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Not a pacu, P. nattereri.


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## kelrx8 (Apr 1, 2006)

pacu for me 
doesnt look like any baby red I ever had.


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## omaits (May 19, 2006)

At first it sounded like a sure thing it was a Piranha...but now I am starting to be unsure again based on what I read. If it is a piranha, I would like to know what kind as well.

As for getting more of them...I would love ot do that. Unfortunatly, I have him at work and I have limited space. Right now, he is in a fairly small tank...as you can see below.3

As for the spots...he does have black spots located on his midsection. Not sure if that helps or not.


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## LouDiB (May 22, 2006)

omaits said:


> At first it sounded like a sure thing it was a Piranha...but now I am starting to be unsure again based on what I read. If it is a piranha, I would like to know what kind as well.
> 
> As for getting more of them...I would love ot do that. Unfortunatly, I have him at work and I have limited space. Right now, he is in a fairly small tank...as you can see below.3
> 
> As for the spots...he does have black spots located on his midsection. Not sure if that helps or not.


nice desk!!!!


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## SpeCiaLisT (Aug 12, 2005)

Frank thats a rbp? I never saw one that small with such bright color before...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> SpeCiaLisT Posted Today, 06:55 AM
> Frank thats a rbp? I never saw one that small with such bright color before...


Tank bred fish are always a little odd shaped, P. nattereri is no exception. Colors are fine.


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## Dawgz (Aug 18, 2005)

omaits said:


> At first it sounded like a sure thing it was a Piranha...but now I am starting to be unsure again based on what I read. If it is a piranha, I would like to know what kind as well.
> 
> As for getting more of them...I would love ot do that. Unfortunatly, I have him at work and I have limited space. Right now, he is in a fairly small tank...as you can see below.3
> 
> As for the spots...he does have black spots located on his midsection. Not sure if that helps or not.


u have some balls to keep that tank up there with soo many monitors below.


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## omaits (May 19, 2006)

Dawgz said:


> u have some balls to keep that tank up there with soo many monitors below.


Thats why they have the Dell Gold Warranty. mwuhahaha Seriously though, its pretty sturdy. I have a pipe screwed into the desk and the shelf is bolted to the cube wall. I made sure it would support it before I filled it with water....I just hope the cleaning lady doesn't hit it or anything.


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

IMO P. nattereri...







!


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## omaits (May 19, 2006)

Thanks to all for the help. I was concerned because he was not attacking a minnow I put in the tank with it. To be sure, I put a goldfish in there. (only long enough to see what he would do) He latched onto the goldfish's tail and went for a ride. He ended up doing a number on the tail. I am relieved now.

Also, it is very strange that he doesn't attack the minnow. As he was attacking the goldfish, the minnow was actually getting shots on the P. I see him chase Javier around from time to time. The minnow was caught from the wild. He must be "street tough" or something. I guess eventually Javier (the Piranha) will deal the death blow to the minnow.


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## a-ronn (Jun 12, 2006)

How do you mannage to change the water with your tank up there ?


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## mass aggression (Apr 13, 2006)

still dont think its a red, looks like pacu thZnks


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> maxinout13 Posted Yesterday, 10:31 PM
> *still dont think its a red, looks like pacu thZnks *


And many people think pacus look like piranha, doesn't necessarily make it so. As I stated above, the most common error is just focusing on certain features and making assumptions. If the fish were in front of me, I could easily resolve the issue, but since we are dealing with a photo that is barely passable, then the best anyone can do is compare that fish photo with others approximating the same size and shape. None of the features on the fish fit a pacu. Meaning, pacus have over-sized fins and a prominent blemish on the cheek. Pacus also have a V shaped lower jaw, where a piranha is more of a "U" shaped lower jaw. The fish in the photo has the "U" shape and is clearly seen in one of the "newer" photos added on. I have added 2 photos of P. nattereri to compare.


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## mass aggression (Apr 13, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > maxinout13 Posted Yesterday, 10:31 PM
> > *still dont think its a red, looks like pacu thZnks *
> 
> 
> And many people think pacus look like piranha, doesn't necessarily make it so. As I stated above, the most common error is just focusing on certain features and making assumptions. If the fish were in front of me, I could easily resolve the issue, but since we are dealing with a photo that is barely passable, then the best anyone can do is compare that fish photo with others approximating the same size and shape. None of the features on the fish fit a pacu. Meaning, pacus have over-sized fins and a prominent blemish on the cheek. Pacus also have a V shaped lower jaw, where a piranha is more of a "U" shaped lower jaw. The fish in the photo has the "U" shape and is clearly seen in one of the "newer" photos added on. I have added 2 photos of P. nattereri to compare.


im not trying to argue frank, but this fish here doesnt look like any captive red i have seen , anyways id love more pics from you of small pacu and small reds like posted and maybe clear definition and differentials, argueing this, its easy to say thats this thats that but clearly you said yourself the fish is not in front of you, is it chance pacu maybe a lil deformed and looks more like a rbp due to this, just cause it ate a feeder he thinks its gotta be a p, i think thats wrong, but who am i to make that decision.

nate


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

A good photo of this little guy teeth (a close up) should solve the mistery... anyway i believe it's P. nattereri...







!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> maxinout13 Posted Today, 06:14 AM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Aug 18 2006, 12:00 PM)
> 
> QUOTE
> ...


Didn't realize we were ARGUING!














Thought it was a DISCUSSION.









First, pacus (vast majority) are not wild caught, they are massed produced in the country of origin. They are farmed fish. And yes there are a few oddies that come out of there, but then we are dealing with 3 species of pacus, 2 which look somewhat similar. Having said that, yes there are some pacus that come close (when juvenile) to looking like P. nattereri, but the jaw is always the dead-give-away. As Mr. Hannibal said, a close up of the teeth help, and if the fish has a double row. Some hobbyists (and F&W in a few cases), think because it has pointed teeth it must be a piranha. But pacus at least those in genus Piaractus, have sharp pointed teeth, with age (adults) tend to flatten out the top from cracking hard seeds and nuts.

But getting back to the fish photo, as I said, its not a great image, but the features I see (in my opinion) are consistent with juvenile piranhas I have seen in the past.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I had to search GOOGLE to find a live colored juvenile pacu. Majority I have here are nice and dead in bottles.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

With the newer photos...I would say that it does look more like a little nattereri. The fins look a little large in proportion to its body (imo) but the mouth does look nattereri.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Grosse Gurke Posted Today, 10:27 AM
> With the newer photos...I would say that it does look more like a little nattereri. The fins look a little large in proportion to its body (imo) but the mouth does look nattereri.


And if we are wrong (I), then this is part of the SCI ID forum.























*maxinout13*

Nate, you have a fish store, don't you have any photos of baby pacu?


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## mass aggression (Apr 13, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > Grosse Gurke Posted Today, 10:27 AM
> > With the newer photos...I would say that it does look more like a little nattereri. The fins look a little large in proportion to its body (imo) but the mouth does look nattereri.
> 
> 
> ...


thanks for the info and pics i clearly see what your saying , as for pics of my own , i do not bring in pacus







,but this thread really got my attention when i was at a wal-mart believe it or not, and saw over 200 baby pacus in this tiny tank, to be honest i never would have ecpected to see fish at wal-mart nevermind very tiny over crowded pacus. why would they even try to sell these fish, i dont like keeping fish that people inevitably give up set free or worse, not to derail anymore this photo,the first one posted, looked so similiar, and the reds i have had either for sale or in my collection i ruled out a red,fast...little info and some supporting facts cleared it all up, thanks.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> maxinout13 Posted Yesterday, 11:42 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Aug 19 2006, 01:45 PM)
> 
> QUOTE
> ...


I salute you for not bringing them in. They are the 1 fish that I would not object to having imports prohibited on. Primarily for the bad reputation those fish have brought on the piranha. As you know, these are being released in U.S. and other countries. Then comes the laws that ban piranhas because of those misidentification.


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## mass aggression (Apr 13, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > maxinout13 Posted Yesterday, 11:42 PM
> > QUOTE(hastatus @ Aug 19 2006, 01:45 PM)
> >
> > QUOTE
> ...


yes its a shame that some people have little or no respect for the hobby,the fish, or other piranha enthuised! but id say a bigger part on fws,maybe the government, who makes the final say,im not sure, but the mis identifications, like the pacu found in illinois recently, starts this scare that these "man eating fish" are on the rise and could possibly thrive in ou rwaters in some parts of the countries, now apparently they can in southern states and some mid west southern etc, but some states its just plain old lack of knowledge, Mass for instance, my home state, pretty rediculous that they are illegal, the snow the temp below zero and horrible winters, id think they would have a little more common sense, but then again i think its major lack of information and knowledge, its alot easier to due away with something then actually learn about it, im sure your in the same boat with these laws etc, and im sure this is a battle fought and has been fought for years, its probably better to keep my two sense to myself ,but is it lack of knowledge or just stupidity that is the thorn in our sides.


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## vlahos (Sep 7, 2003)

that's a definate red belly p
the jaw shows it's not a pacu


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## Piranha loca (Aug 20, 2006)

my opinion is that is a pacu! because of the shape of the mouth


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

This is an old topic long since resolved. Pygocentrus nattereri.


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