# Why You Should Stay Away From Goldfish!



## Pirambeba (Feb 1, 2010)

For those who already don't know what the affect of thiaminase on fish is, it is a growth inhibiting nutrient found in cyprinids as well as a number of invertebrates. There are already a lot of reasons as to why you shouldn't be feeding goldfish/minnows to your piranhas e.g. possible introduction of disease or internal parasites, but Thiaminase is one of the more major concerns. I know most of you are thinking about Thiamine/Vitamin B1, do not get this confused with thiaminase, thiamine is what helps aid in growth thiaminase is a nutrient that impedes growth by inhibiting the natural production of thiamine.

This is only a theory based on information I've found online, but it might also be the reason why in fish stores the piranhas act nervous or shy aside form being in an enclosed environment, most if not all fish stores feed their piranhas goldfish as a cheaper alternative to feeding frozen foods, it might not seem like a big deal, but from what I've learned thiaminase doesn't only stunt growth but causes nervousness in salmonids/characins which piranhas are a part of. here is a quote taken off the website.

"Salmonids show nervous disorders, poor appetite, poor growth and jumpiness (again, similar things have observed among a variety of ornamental fish species)."

I can't confirm the theory 100% as I'm not willing to stuff my piranha with goldfish, but if any of you have noticed above stated information with piranhas purchased through a dealer that does feed them goldfish/minnows, it very well might be the reason why even after a number of months or even years the fish still acts the way it does when it was first purchased, I have observed this behaviour several times with piranhas I've owned in the past and can still see it in fish that are available for sale now. I've even heard that wild nattereri are far more aggressive than they're captive counterparts, why? because they do not encounter this nutrient often in the wild, as for you who are thinking " how about juvenile specimens" well they have been most likely bred in captivity which means if not themselves perhaps the parents have been exposed to it at some point in time, how does that explain anything? Genetic Transference, captive fish that already have developed said traits and bred are more likely to pass it down through further generations of their offspring.

To conclude, I'm not telling you what or what not to feed to your piranhas, I'm just saying to keep an open mindset to what goldfish could potentially do to them.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2010)

Good article Pirambeba


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## Pirambeba (Feb 1, 2010)

^^ Thanks


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## Da' Manster! (Sep 1, 2009)

Well actually, no it's not a good article...just the same garbage that keeps getting repeated over and over again without any factual evidence to back it up...obviously pirambeba has never raised or grown out piranhas...secondly, there are many flaws in his argument...First of all, what in the hell does *DIET* have to do with piranhas being shy and skittish?!!!...














...The fact that most pet stores fed them feeders is totally irrelevant to them being skittish..It's in their basic nature and it's inborn survival trait...hell, everybody knows that...well, almost everybody...







...and secondly, and just as important, thiaminase is an ingredient found in shrimp, so does that mean that everybody should stop feeding their piranhas shrimp?!...and it's no use....I'll just copy and paste from another similar post....

Well, do you also tell them that it's stupid to feed them shrimp as well?!..(which is what the vast majority of forum members on here do, so they are guilty of the same thing)..FYI, Shrimp contains as much Thiaminase as feeder goldfish...Back to the point, People in the hobby have been giving feeder goldfish (myself included)for many years without any problems...there many other contributing factors as well which contribute to unwanted diseases and untimely death..Hell, Pedro, George, and Alex all well respected sponsors and well experienced piranha handlers STILL give their P's feeder goldfish as does Richard (who owns Riverdale Pets, my LFS that deals exclusively with Piranhas)..As a matter of fact, Richard has Rhoms, ternetzi's, Caribe's all in the 12-18 inch range!..some beautiful and healthy monsters!...I'll take some pics next time I'm in D.C.!...Point being is let's not get carried away with this article...I'd be willing to bet there were other extrenuating circumstances which contributed to the gators death..Besides, this evidence isn't based on empirical data so it might have been a one time "fluke" occurence..Once again, if Thiaminase was as deadly as some believe, then most piranha's would have already been wiped out of the hobby a very long time ago...Here is another interesting link on Thiaminase...It basically rehashes everything that has already been said but also contains other very valuable information...Take it for it's worth....

http://www.wetwebmed.../thiaminase.htm


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## Pirambeba (Feb 1, 2010)

Da said:


> Well actually, no it's not a good article...just the same garbage that keeps getting repeated over and over again without any factual evidence to back it up...obviously pirambeba has never raised or grown out piranhas...secondly, there are many flaws in his argument...First of all, what in the hell does *DIET* have to do with piranhas being shy and skittish?!!!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I have to say in my own defence if you are basing whether or not I have raised a piranha solely on my appearance on this website, that's sad. As for my statement about diet, NOT MY CLAIM!! - the link that works: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm I read the part about shrimp that doesn't pertain to all of them only ones found in the genus penaeus, mr. piranha expert. Lastly as for your disgraceful attitude, I'm quit surprised.. you are probably twice my age and you act like this?







goes to show people like you are all the same. An opinion is an opinion even if it's not from an expert.


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

First off I repect the fact that every keeper has the right to feed what they want regardless of what you believe about feeders. I think wild caught rbp are more aggressive than tank raised because of the simple fact tank raised fish are top of the food chain the have their food given to them, wild caught rbp have to worry about many predators from many kinds of fish to alligators.any wild animal fish, mammal, or whatever is going to be more aggressive than a captive bred one. N one last thing. Only about 1% of rbp caught either by line or nets in the wild ever exceed 6" n these fish never eat goldfish.but yet many believe a 8" rbp that's fed golds is stunted n claim that fish could or should be 9" but yet he's already grown bigger than he would have in the wild. Funny thing to me is 10-15 years ago everyone fed goldfish, minnows, beefheart as main staples n yet these fish got just as big as fish that are only fed so called good foods, if not bigger.I look at the feeder debate like this, I love a good debate but I think when some start tell noobs feed this n not that, n other members say no its ok to feed this but only occasionally feed this, it really could confuse some new keepers.I think every food option should be told wheather you believe its a healthy food or not n let newcomers research n decide for themselves.


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## I Can Mate (Apr 8, 2010)

BRUNER247 said:


> First off I repect the fact that every keeper has the right to feed what they want regardless of what you believe about feeders. I think wild caught rbp are more aggressive than tank raised because of the simple fact tank raised fish are top of the food chain the have their food given to them, wild caught rbp have to worry about many predators from many kinds of fish to alligators.any wild animal fish, mammal, or whatever is going to be more aggressive than a captive bred one. N one last thing. Only about 1% of rbp caught either by line or nets in the wild ever exceed 6" n these fish never eat goldfish.but yet many believe a 8" rbp that's fed golds is stunted n claim that fish could or should be 9" but yet he's already grown bigger than he would have in the wild. Funny thing to me is 10-15 years ago everyone fed goldfish, minnows, beefheart as main staples n yet these fish got just as big as fish that are only fed so called good foods, if not bigger.I look at the feeder debate like this, I love a good debate but I think when some start tell noobs feed this n not that, n other members say no its ok to feed this but only occasionally feed this, it really could confuse some new keepers.I think every food option should be told wheather you believe its a healthy food or not n let newcomers research n decide for themselves.


X2 bout the different food source and freedom of fish food


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## Pirambeba (Feb 1, 2010)

BRUNER247 said:


> First off I repect the fact that every keeper has the right to feed what they want regardless of what you believe about feeders. I think wild caught rbp are more aggressive than tank raised because of the simple fact tank raised fish are top of the food chain the have their food given to them, wild caught rbp have to worry about many predators from many kinds of fish to alligators.any wild animal fish, mammal, or whatever is going to be more aggressive than a captive bred one. N one last thing. Only about 1% of rbp caught either by line or nets in the wild ever exceed 6" n these fish never eat goldfish.but yet many believe a 8" rbp that's fed golds is stunted n claim that fish could or should be 9" but yet he's already grown bigger than he would have in the wild. Funny thing to me is 10-15 years ago everyone fed goldfish, minnows, beefheart as main staples n yet these fish got just as big as fish that are only fed so called good foods, if not bigger.I look at the feeder debate like this, I love a good debate but I think when some start tell noobs feed this n not that, n other members say no its ok to feed this but only occasionally feed this, it really could confuse some new keepers.I think every food option should be told wheather you believe its a healthy food or not n let newcomers research n decide for themselves.


 There are a lot of valid points in your statement, obviously I'm not the 1st person to state something like this. The thiaminase theory still has a lot of holes to fill and no one person can explain it completely it is all a matter of opinion, but unless someone on here or anywhere else can explain why goldfish/minnows are beneficial in any way I won't feed them to anything I keep.

This topic is not a guideline for newcomers, it is simply an opinion. I too am all for freedom of choice which is why I said "To conclude, I'm not telling you what or what not to feed to your piranhas, I'm just saying to keep an open mindset to what goldfish could potentially do to them." Key word: POTENTIALLY!


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

I wasn't meaning this thread as a guideline. I was pertaining to just giving newcomers options on what to feed. Like when a member flames a noob for feeding feeders n say never feed goldfish. When I think it should say something like, some believe goldfish are harmful some think their ok n advise to research n ultimately decide for yourself.I just think its fair to tell em never feed goldfish it'll stunt their growth n leave it at that. I kinda see feeders like a religion. I don't mind what if any faith you believe in n don't mind hearing about it but don't try to ram it down my throat n tell me I'm going to hell because I don't believe the same views as you. There's just so many factors for piranha growth n disposition in individual fish that this debate will never be proved right or wrong.this is why I say all food options should be disclosed n each individual keeper can decide for themselves what they believe is best for their fish or situation. I can think of a couple good points to feeding feeders. 1st gives your fish something to do, chase n work for their food. I look at it like zoos feed their animals, they don't just drop it in or fill a bowl.they make the animal work for it, they hide it,they make it harder to get ect.captive animals wheather its fish or mammal have it too easy, n will get lazy if given the chance(which is harmful to their health in my eyes)this is why I make my piranha show me they're hungry they have to rise to top or they don't get fed(which isn't a lot of activity but its a start, n I do notice a difference in their behavior, they are more active n not anywhere near as shy as most rbp) 2nd live food has nutritional values that just can't be had anywhere else.I don't care what it is plants or animals, as soon as you kill it the nutritional value takes a plunge n decreases rapidly with time. Live bones, blood, n intrails that just isn't found in fillets or dead fish.


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## Pirambeba (Feb 1, 2010)

BRUNER247 said:


> I wasn't meaning this thread as a guideline. I was pertaining to just giving newcomers options on what to feed. Like when a member flames a noob for feeding feeders n say never feed goldfish. When I think it should say something like, some believe goldfish are harmful some think their ok n advise to research n ultimately decide for yourself.I just think its fair to tell em never feed goldfish it'll stunt their growth n leave it at that. I kinda see feeders like a religion. I don't mind what if any faith you believe in n don't mind hearing about it but don't try to ram it down my throat n tell me I'm going to hell because I don't believe the same views as you. There's just so many factors for piranha growth n disposition in individual fish that this debate will never be proved right or wrong.this is why I say all food options should be disclosed n each individual keeper can decide for themselves what they believe is best for their fish or situation.


 In which case, you are absolutely right. I'm not saying DON'T feed them goldfish, heck I have no right above any other to be giving out commands, it's more like there are reasons why you might not want to.


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## Da' Manster! (Sep 1, 2009)

Pirambeba said:


> Well actually, no it's not a good article...just the same garbage that keeps getting repeated over and over again without any factual evidence to back it up...obviously pirambeba has never raised or grown out piranhas...secondly, there are many flaws in his argument...First of all, what in the hell does *DIET* have to do with piranhas being shy and skittish?!!!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I have to say in my own defence if you are basing whether or not I have raised a piranha based on my appearance on this website, that's sad. As for my statement about diet or where I got the info here's the link that works: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm I read the part about shrimp that doesn't pertain to all of them only ones found in the genus Penaeus. Lastly as for your disgraceful attitude, I'm quit surprised.. you are probably twice my age and you act like this?







goes to show people like you are all the same. An opinion is an opinion even if it's not from an expert.
[/quote]

Where was I disgraceful?!..where did I get an attitude...I just gave an opinion based on my own experience, not by some fallacies or myths that get started and perpetuated on various messageboards and internet forums...Furthermore, I usually respect peoples opinion and I simply disagreed with yours because it's something that has been rehashed over and over again and yes, it's something that I'm passionate and adamant about...Sorry if you took offence...I guess I did come on a little too strong and I apologize for that...However, Like I said, I've been raising piranhas for 25 + years and so have well respected vendors like George, Pedro, and Alex and all of us have used feeders/goldfish in our piranhas diet...I just get sick and tired of post's like these because they have no validity to them and they aren't based on empirical data...Also, I have no problem whatsoever with people feeding their piranhas shrimp, talipia, scallops, smelt, etc, etc...but lets not make it sound like its the end all be all when it comes to feeding our piranhas...I also posted that link showing the shrimp had thiaminase...Anyhow, no hard feelings, pirambeba...


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## Pirambeba (Feb 1, 2010)

Da said:


> Well actually, no it's not a good article...just the same garbage that keeps getting repeated over and over again without any factual evidence to back it up...obviously pirambeba has never raised or grown out piranhas...secondly, there are many flaws in his argument...First of all, what in the hell does *DIET* have to do with piranhas being shy and skittish?!!!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I have to say in my own defence if you are basing whether or not I have raised a piranha based on my appearance on this website, that's sad. As for my statement about diet or where I got the info here's the link that works: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm I read the part about shrimp that doesn't pertain to all of them only ones found in the genus Penaeus. Lastly as for your disgraceful attitude, I'm quit surprised.. you are probably twice my age and you act like this?







goes to show people like you are all the same. An opinion is an opinion even if it's not from an expert.
[/quote]

Where was I disgraceful?!..where did I get an attitude...I just gave an opinion based on my own experience, not by some fallacies or myths that get started and perpetuated on various messageboards and internet forums...Furthermore, I usually respect peoples opinion and I simply disagreed with yours because it's something that has been rehashed over and over again and yes, it's something that I'm passionate and adamant about...Sorry if you took offence...I guess I did come on a little too strong and I apologize for that...However, Like I said, I've been raising piranhas for 25 + years and so have well respected vendors like George, Pedro, and Alex and all of us have used feeders/goldfish in our piranhas diet...I just get sick and tired of post's like these because they have no validity to them and they aren't based on empirical data...Also, I have no problem whatsoever with people feeding their piranhas shrimp, talipia, scallops, smelt, etc, etc...but lets not make it sound like its the end all be all when it comes to feeding our piranhas...I also posted that link showing the shrimp had thiaminase...Anyhow, no hard feelings, pirambeba...








[/quote]

Ok, now I know where you're coming from. No hard feelings







I just thought I was getting flamed for it, like I said it hasn't been confirmed yet. Unfortunately this particular subject will almost certainly never be confirmed, there are numerous reasons as to why animals act the way they do, this was only a theory of why they might.


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## I Can Mate (Apr 8, 2010)

how about this? dont feed any cheese!!!


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

I Can Mate said:


> how about this? dont feed any cheese!!!


Lol actually I've read on one of these forums that someone suggested small amount of cheese for Calcium.lmao!


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## Pirambeba (Feb 1, 2010)

I Can Mate said:


> how about this? dont feed any cheese!!!


lol


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## I Can Mate (Apr 8, 2010)

BRUNER247 said:


> how about this? dont feed any cheese!!!


Lol actually I've read on one of these forums that someone suggested small amount of cheese for Calcium.lmao!
[/quote]
Might as well let them swim in milk


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

I don't agree with it! Nice new avatar pic ICM.


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## banshee42096 (Apr 29, 2010)

bruner you seemed to sum it up nice i have a friend that has had rbs for over 3 years and only fed them feeders from day one and there are some well over 10inches.and then seen others not feed them feeders at all and get the same results.i found for my golds they tend not to hurt each other as much if i add a few goldfish in the tank to keep them occupied on chasing them and eating them.so theres pluses and negatives to both.


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## M. MONROE (May 31, 2010)

no goldfish for my P. I did when I first got him then he is on catfish, worms, shrimp, other whitefish...


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