# Big Water Change and Fish Up Near the Top and Breathing Heavy



## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

I just did 3 X 60% water changes being careful to match the temperature of the water. The water parameters before the change were pH 6, Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, and nitrates 40. After the water change: pH 7, Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrates 0-5 ppm. My four Pygos went into shock the first hour after the water change and were swimming a little slower than usual, breathing much heavier than usual, and drifting to the upper regions of the water and gulping for air. Can anyone explain this? My only guess is that the tap water has very little DO in it.


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## 77gp454 (Feb 18, 2007)

With your "before" water parameters you only needed to do one 30-50% waterchange. 3 60%s is too much. Thats why your nitrate shot down that low. Jumping from 6 to 7 in the PH probably was a shock as well. The Ph should be closer to 7 than 6. Maybe a little extra water conditioner or some water from another tank would help.


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## Ihavebigpiranha (Aug 19, 2004)

how did you match the water temp? using water from a water heater isn't usually good

did you dechlorinate the new water as you were adding it?


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

Ihavebigpiranha said:


> how did you match the water temp? using water from a water heater isn't usually good
> 
> did you dechlorinate the new water as you were adding it?


I matched the temperature by touch and I didn't dechlorinate the water. The hot water heater might be a good explanation why there is less O2 in the water since it sits in the hot water heater tank at about 140 deg F. Also where I live the tap water originates from aquifers sometimes a couple hundred feet down.


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## leviathon13 (Sep 11, 2006)

um, never do a water change that big unless something dangerous to the fish got dumped into the tank, ie, alcohol, chemical cleaners, bleach etc. the jump in pH from 6 to 7 is huge 6 is 100 times more acid than 7 (seven being neither acid nor alkaline but neutral)seems like a small jump to us, but not to the fish, pH should only be changed in incriments of .2 /24 hrs. IMO. water changes that large, especially after not doing one for a while, can send the fish into shock, if to many paramaters change to much.the fact that you didn't dechlorinate it ( if you have municipal water that contains chlorine) is a bad thing too. chlorine burns fishes gills.


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

leviathon13 said:


> um, never do a water change that big unless something dangerous to the fish got dumped into the tank, ie, alcohol, chemical cleaners, bleach etc. the jump in pH from 6 to 7 is huge 6 is 100 times more acid than 7 (seven being neither acid nor alkaline but neutral)seems like a small jump to us, but not to the fish, pH should only be changed in incriments of .2 /24 hrs. IMO. water changes that large, especially after not doing one for a while, can send the fish into shock, if to many paramaters change to much.the fact that you didn't dechlorinate it ( if you have municipal water that contains chlorine) is a bad thing too. chlorine burns fishes gills.


I think a 1 pH point drop corresponds to 10 times more protons in solution. I'll have to buy some Chlorout for future use. I was thinking of treating the tap water with lime to buffer the aquarium water during the 5 day period between water changes where the dissolved CO2 concentration increases. It will add an extra step to my water changes but maybe I wouldn't have such a drastic change in pH during water changes and the carbonate hardness will aid the fish in their electrolyte balancing processes. I'll start a new topic if I ever get the liming started up.


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

You're right, the pH swing is only a factor of 10, not 100, as we're dealing with the "common log" and not "log-base-100". The dechlorination could also be an issue...especially if you (a) failed to aerate the water before adding it or (b) had chloramines in the water.

I seem to recall reading something about hot water having some interesting metals in it, from time to time, especially when it's first turned on...anyone want to back me up or shoot me down?


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

ChilDawg said:


> You're right, the pH swing is only a factor of 10, not 100, as we're dealing with the "common log" and not "log-base-100". The dechlorination could also be an issue...especially if you (a) failed to aerate the water before adding it or (b) had chloramines in the water.
> 
> I seem to recall reading something about hot water having some interesting metals in it, from time to time, especially when it's first turned on...anyone want to back me up or shoot me down?


I'm hoping whoever soldered the the copper pipes when fitting the hot water heater didn't use lead based solder.


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

It wasn't just lead...


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

ChilDawg said:


> It wasn't just lead...


I know the hot water heater either has sacrificial zinc or magnesium attached to the tank wall to protect against corrosion. Some stainless alloys might have trace amounts of arsenic and other metals in them but I'm not sure what the manufacturer would choose for tank material to meet the drinking water standards as well as provide resistance to corrosion.

I just had another idea regarding protecting from such a drastic pH swing during large water changes. I can get a 55 gallon plastic open head drum and some hose and a submersible transfer pump as well as a good air stone and air pump and run the air-pump until the water is both oxygenated and enough atmospheric CO2 has dissolved to bring down the pH closer to the tank water. That should knock out two birds with one stone but I won't know which of the two was the culprit of causing my fish to act sluggish and gasp for air near the top. (My guess would be more the oxygen level) I still need to eliminate the chlorine/chloramine possibility on my next water change but I still won't have the above mentioned equipment by then to eliminate all possibilities.

If I can bring down the pH in a couple hours with the above mentioned setup it will be worthwhile. I'll find out once I get my setup.


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## leviathon13 (Sep 11, 2006)

shanker said:


> um, never do a water change that big unless something dangerous to the fish got dumped into the tank, ie, alcohol, chemical cleaners, bleach etc. the jump in pH from 6 to 7 is huge 6 is 100 times more acid than 7 (seven being neither acid nor alkaline but neutral)seems like a small jump to us, but not to the fish, pH should only be changed in incriments of .2 /24 hrs. IMO. water changes that large, especially after not doing one for a while, can send the fish into shock, if to many paramaters change to much.the fact that you didn't dechlorinate it ( if you have municipal water that contains chlorine) is a bad thing too. chlorine burns fishes gills.


I think a 1 pH point drop corresponds to 10 times more protons in solution. I'll have to buy some Chlorout for future use. I was thinking of treating the tap water with lime to buffer the aquarium water during the 5 day period between water changes where the dissolved CO2 concentration increases. It will add an extra step to my water changes but maybe I wouldn't have such a drastic change in pH during water changes and the carbonate hardness will aid the fish in their electrolyte balancing processes. I'll start a new topic if I ever get the liming started up.
[/quote]
aren't you afraid that the lime will raise the pH too much?I've used ordinary Baking soda to buffer pH before and it worked quite well, i used it along with seachem's acid buffer, and i've used it in salt tanks as well with good results. how are your P's now by the way?that's what's important.


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

leviathon13 said:


> um, never do a water change that big unless something dangerous to the fish got dumped into the tank, ie, alcohol, chemical cleaners, bleach etc. the jump in pH from 6 to 7 is huge 6 is 100 times more acid than 7 (seven being neither acid nor alkaline but neutral)seems like a small jump to us, but not to the fish, pH should only be changed in incriments of .2 /24 hrs. IMO. water changes that large, especially after not doing one for a while, can send the fish into shock, if to many paramaters change to much.the fact that you didn't dechlorinate it ( if you have municipal water that contains chlorine) is a bad thing too. chlorine burns fishes gills.


I think a 1 pH point drop corresponds to 10 times more protons in solution. I'll have to buy some Chlorout for future use. I was thinking of treating the tap water with lime to buffer the aquarium water during the 5 day period between water changes where the dissolved CO2 concentration increases. It will add an extra step to my water changes but maybe I wouldn't have such a drastic change in pH during water changes and the carbonate hardness will aid the fish in their electrolyte balancing processes. I'll start a new topic if I ever get the liming started up.
[/quote]
aren't you afraid that the lime will raise the pH too much?I've used ordinary Baking soda to buffer pH before and it worked quite well, i used it along with seachem's acid buffer, and i've used it in salt tanks as well with good results. how are your P's now by the way?that's what's important.
[/quote]

My P's went back down near the bottom of the tank after two hours and weren't breathing as heavy and in a couple more hours they were starting to interact with each other again like when they tilt their head down, open their mouth, and shake from side to side. The four Pygos I have now are pretty hardy and can handle the shock but I'd better get moving and start trying other things out to eliminate shocking them every time I change the water. Before I try the limestone out I'll first try bubbling air into a holding tank first.


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## leviathon13 (Sep 11, 2006)

GOOD! glad to hear it. sounds like you've got the bugs worked out. did you just get the fish recently? or 
did you move recently?just wondering if this was the 1st time they acted this way after a water change.or if it was a new water source or what.i used to pe picky about my red's water making sure it was a steady 6.5pH, but found it alot less hassle and 0 stress on the fish to just not mess with the tap water and put 'em in 7.2pH.they bounce back just as quickly after the stress of a water change as they did when i altered the pH,and their color goes back to normal and they start swimming and chasing each other within 10 min of me refilling the tank.


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

leviathon13 said:


> GOOD! glad to hear it. sounds like you've got the bugs worked out. did you just get the fish recently? or
> did you move recently?just wondering if this was the 1st time they acted this way after a water change.or if it was a new water source or what.i used to pe picky about my red's water making sure it was a steady 6.5pH, but found it alot less hassle and 0 stress on the fish to just not mess with the tap water and put 'em in 7.2pH.they bounce back just as quickly after the stress of a water change as they did when i altered the pH,and their color goes back to normal and they start swimming and chasing each other within 10 min of me refilling the tank.


I had the fish since the end of July and didn't really notice any strange behavior after water changes until the last couple times I did it. It might be because I went from 3X40% to 3X60% water changes.


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## Ihavebigpiranha (Aug 19, 2004)

it could be fluctuating municipal water quality. if had rained a lot and they added extra chems into the supply.

Most of what I've heard of using water from a water heater isn't the heater itself contaminating usually, it's the heated water s effect on the soldered joints of a lot of copper plumbing, it can leach the lead and other bad stuff out of the solder with the heat that is necessary to keep bacteria from forming in the tank. My water heater is set up at 190* F, I use it for showers and washing clothes and dishes but I don't drink it or use it for my aquariums.

good luck in the future, your city office should be able to get you a list of any chemicals they treat the water with so you'll know if you need to use anything to counteract what they put in.


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

I just did 2 X 50% Water changes and the fish are swimming around as happy as ever. The pH went from 6 to 7 but that doesn't seem to be bothering them. I also forgot to pick up the chlorout from the pet shop but as of now the fish are doing great.


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## scotty (Oct 3, 2007)

glad to hear your fish are fine


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

I just blew my breath through a straw into a 5 ml pH test vial for about 3 seconds and the pH went from 7 to 6. It's been a day so far and the pH hasn't dropped below 6.8-7 in my fish tank so I think the atmospheric levels of CO2 (about 350 PPM) are too low to bring down the pH in a reasonable amount of time. My next option on bringing down the pH of the tap water before putting it in the tank would be to get a CO2 cylinder and hook it up to an air stone and bubble it into the water that I'm pre-treating. As stated in my last post on this thread my last 2 X 50% water change brought the tank pH from 6 to 7 and the fish didn't seem to be effected so maybe I don't need to worry about the pH as much.


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