# Feeders slow growth rates.



## gimmemyshit (Oct 7, 2005)

* Live fish need to be quarantained first, so they are safe to feed (containing no disases or parasites). Goldfish, minnows and other members of the Cyprinid family (Carp-like fish) should be avoided, as these fish contain growth-inhibiting hormones (Thaiminase/Vitamine B1 inhibitors) that could negatively affect the fish's health and development.

THAT'S RIGHT GOLDFISH AND MINNOW TYPE FEEDER FISH SLOW GROWTH OF PREDATOR FISH IF FED TOO OFTEN.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

thanks?


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

In fact even quarantined feeders can contain internal (unapparental) diseases/parasites harmful/fatal to your Ps... quarantined feeders are "less" risky but still risky...







!


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

gimmemyshit said:


> Goldfish, minnows and other members of the Cyprinid family (Carp-like fish) should be avoided, as these fish contain growth-inhibiting hormones (Thaiminase/Vitamine B1 inhibitors) that could negatively affect the fish's health and development.


Some corrections on this.

Do not make an assumption that thiaminase would be present in only Cyprinid family.
No, thiaminase is a natural part of metabolism. It is supposed to break down thiamine (B1) in normal metabolism. All the fishes contain it.
As I have written here before, in early 90's the high content of thiaminase in Baltic Sea wild Salmon (Salmo salar) population was the factor that caused Salmon stocks to decline. The effect was not any stunted growth, but highly increased juvenile death (soon after hatching). This phenomen was first discovered in the Baltic Sea in 1974. The Swedish name M-74 was given to it (Miljö 74 = Environment 74). It was in late 90's that the reason behind this was better understood. The Salmon population got these elevated thiaminase levels from the food chain. High thiaminase levels were also found in Sprat (Sprattus sprattus) and Baltic herring (Clupea harengus membras). These levels were not high enough to cause symptoms, though, but the thiaminase got enriched in food chain into Salmons.
High thiaminase levels have also been found in Canadian Lakes from the whitefishes (Coregonus spp).

Oh yes, and one other thing. Thiaminase is an enzyme, not a hormone. Enzymes are chemical compounds that accelerate biological processes that are still normally present also without these enzymes.

Harry


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## Sacrifice (Sep 24, 2006)

harrykaa said:


> Goldfish, minnows and other members of the Cyprinid family (Carp-like fish) should be avoided, as these fish contain growth-inhibiting hormones (Thaiminase/Vitamine B1 inhibitors) that could negatively affect the fish's health and development.


Some corrections on this.

Do not make an assumption that thiaminase would be present in only Cyprinid family.
No, thiaminase is a natural part of metabolism. It is supposed to break down thiamine (B1) in normal metabolism. All the fishes contain it.
As I have written here before, in early 90's the high content of thiaminase in Baltic Sea wild Salmon (Salmo salar) population was the factor that caused Salmon stocks to decline. The effect was not any stunted growth, but highly increased juvenile death (soon after hatching). This phenomen was first discovered in the Baltic Sea in 1974. The Swedish name M-74 was given to it (Miljö 74 = Environment 74). It was in late 90's that the reason behind this was better understood. The Salmon population got these elevated thiaminase levels from the food chain. High thiaminase levels were also found in Sprat (Sprattus sprattus) and Baltic herring (Clupea harengus membras). These levels were not high enough to cause symptoms, though, but the thiaminase got enriched in food chain into Salmons.
High thiaminase levels have also been found in Canadian Lakes from the whitefishes (Coregonus spp).

Oh yes, and one other thing. Thiaminase is an enzyme, not a hormone. Enzymes are chemical compounds that accelerate biological processes that are still normally present also without these enzymes.

Harry
[/quote]















Harry you are a Giant Ball of Wisdom. Im always amazed at what I can learn from your post.


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## mujaman (Oct 31, 2006)

A slight correction to what Harry said:

All fish actually do NOT contain thiaminase. For example, _Salmo gairdnerii irideus_ (rainbow trout), _Lepomis macrochirus_ (bluegill), _Micropterus dolomieu_ (smallmouth bass), etc. are all reported to be thiaminase-free fish.

Thiaminase has no DIRECT influence on the growth of your piranhas. Rather, it breaks down thiamine, which is a necessary cofactor for many metabolic pathways. High levels of thiaminase therefore deplete the available thiamine and can then pose problems. As long as goldfish (or others with thiaminase) aren't fed to often and other foods that contain THIAMINE are given regularly, there should be absolutely no problems (aside from parasites/diseases in the feeders).

I know I enjoy an occasional goldfish chase around the tank... and a 12 cent feeder (quarantined of course) is much more enjoyable to see get eaten than some other $6-7 fish or a wimpy guppy


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

mujaman said:


> A slight correction to what Harry said:
> 
> All fish actually do NOT contain thiaminase. For example, _Salmo gairdnerii irideus_ (rainbow trout), _Lepomis macrochirus_ (bluegill), _Micropterus dolomieu_ (smallmouth bass), etc. are all reported to be thiaminase-free fish.
> 
> ...


thats why you breed convicts. cheap free and get decent size


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## eiji (Sep 16, 2006)

all of that information and intelligence could hurt an average brain like mine...


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

mujaman said:


> All fish actually do NOT contain thiaminase. For example, _Salmo gairdnerii irideus_ (rainbow trout), _Lepomis macrochirus_ (bluegill), _Micropterus dolomieu_ (smallmouth bass), etc. are all reported to be thiaminase-free fish.


Rainbow trout is no longer Salmo gairdneri, but Oncorhynchus mykiss.
Thiaminase-free means here actually low content of thiaminase. Like I said the fishes contain at least some thiaminase, though the level is often insignificant. It really is a natural part of metabolism.
As Rainbow Trout is also a common aquaculture product, the content of thiaminase is best managed by feeding proper fodder to them.
Thiaminase has indeed been reported in Rainbow trout. Thiaminase has caused economical losses in raising fisheries, such as Rainbow Trout, Sea Bream and Yellowtail. This has been found to be due to the fact that these fishes had been fed with raw Herring or Achovy, which in turn contain higher levels of thiaminase.

Harry


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Harry, you crack me up, but in a good way. Half the sh*t you say I can't even repeat....







I guess i'm just a simple ******* from the mountains.


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

so wait, if ALL fish containe the thia whatever then wouldnt the fish they eat in the wild contain it also?


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## Sacrifice (Sep 24, 2006)

Dr. Giggles said:


> Harry, you crack me up, but in a good way. Half the sh*t you say I can't even repeat....:laugh: I guess i'm just a simple ******* from the mountains.










I was thinking the EXACT same thing.


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## mujaman (Oct 31, 2006)

Thanks for the correction the rainbows... I wasn't aware of that change. It is also good to clarify that many fish that contain thiaminase have actually obtained it from their diet and as it does not naturally occur amongst all species.

I probably shouldn't have said thiaminase FREE... low thiaminase would be a better classification.


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

my rhom has eaten ALOT of goldfish and his growth is outragous!!
i think it is mostly "hype"
but i have been wrong before


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

redrum781 said:


> my rhom has eaten ALOT of goldfish and his growth is outragous!!
> i think it is mostly "hype"
> but i have been wrong before


yeah and many are going to say your wrong now. Feeder goldfish not only stunt the growth but generally are nasty and contain diseases. So you say you qt them then, internal parasites are hard to spot when they are only qt for a week or two. Your best bet is to breed your own feeders so you know they are clean


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

thebluyak said:


> my rhom has eaten ALOT of goldfish and his growth is outragous!!
> i think it is mostly "hype"
> but i have been wrong before


yeah and many are going to say your wrong now. Feeder goldfish not only stunt the growth but generally are nasty and contain diseases. So you say you qt them then, internal parasites are hard to spot when they are only qt for a week or two. Your best bet is to breed your own feeders so you know they are clean
[/quote]
flame on! lol 
check out my thread about my rhom
i fed him all fish, squid...ect now but when i first got him hundreds of goldfish


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## gimmemyshit (Oct 7, 2005)

The point of my post was not to argue about trout or if Thiaminase is an enzyme or hormone......I wanted to make it known to those that feed thier predators an all feeder fish diet that these enzymes do in fact inhibit growth especially when they are the only food source for said predators. So simply put......A mixed diet along with proper housing and husbandry will yield the greatest growth, and an all feeders diet is never acceptable! Thank You Kindly and your input was greatly appreciated....I too have learned more on this subject, Levi.


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## taylorhedrich (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm going to move this to the proper forum since it seems we are having yet ANOTHER debate about feeders on P-Fury.









_*Topic Moved to Feeding and Nutrition Forum*_


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## the_skdster (Aug 15, 2006)

My heads spinning right now.








*or maybe it's the sugar-rush from all the holloween candy I stole off my 'lil cousins tonight*


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## gimmemyshit (Oct 7, 2005)

Candy thief....yeah I have a "Doctor Tounge" mask if any of you know what I'm talking about....lets just say it traumatizes small children.....I about pissed myself laughing after sending 5 or 6 kids sprinting down the driveway screaming.....god I'm horrible but I find it so funny.......I'm laughing now just thinking about it.


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

mujaman said:


> Thanks for the correction the rainbows... I wasn't aware of that change. It is also good to clarify that many fish that contain thiaminase have actually obtained it from their diet and as it does not naturally occur amongst all species.
> 
> I probably shouldn't have said thiaminase FREE... low thiaminase would be a better classification.










Mujaman,

Exactly, you are right.



> so wait, if ALL fish containe the thia whatever then wouldnt the fish they eat in the wild contain it also?


Well most of the levels in the fishes are insignificantly low. So no problem.

Harry


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## gimmemyshit (Oct 7, 2005)

Thank you Harry.


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## Piranha Mcfly (Oct 12, 2006)

redrum781 said:


> my rhom has eaten ALOT of goldfish and his growth is outragous!!
> i think it is mostly "hype"
> but i have been wrong before


yeah and many are going to say your wrong now. Feeder goldfish not only stunt the growth but generally are nasty and contain diseases. So you say you qt them then, internal parasites are hard to spot when they are only qt for a week or two. Your best bet is to breed your own feeders so you know they are clean
[/quote]
flame on! lol 
check out my thread about my rhom
i fed him all fish, squid...ect now but when i first got him hundreds of goldfish
[/quote]
I have seen his post and the growth is pretty amazing that he is referring to. I think it is mostly "hype" as well. Where is the solid prove?


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

Piranha Mcfly said:


> my rhom has eaten ALOT of goldfish and his growth is outragous!!
> i think it is mostly "hype"
> but i have been wrong before


yeah and many are going to say your wrong now. Feeder goldfish not only stunt the growth but generally are nasty and contain diseases. So you say you qt them then, internal parasites are hard to spot when they are only qt for a week or two. Your best bet is to breed your own feeders so you know they are clean
[/quote]
flame on! lol 
check out my thread about my rhom
i fed him all fish, squid...ect now but when i first got him hundreds of goldfish
[/quote]
I have seen his post and the growth is pretty amazing that he is referring to. I think it is mostly "hype" as well. Where is the solid prove?
[/quote]

your kidding right? Do you really need solid proof that store bought feeder goldfish can easily contain parasites that you will let your p injest? Whatever feed ur P ur finger if you really want, but I dont see how you can feed your P's those nasty fish and be surprised when it has problems.


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## the_skdster (Aug 15, 2006)

This Thread is going Nowhere.


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## gimmemyshit (Oct 7, 2005)

I agree....since I stared it I'll be the first to say......please close it.


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

FYI gimme, this exact topic is pinned right above this thread


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## the_skdster (Aug 15, 2006)

thebluyak said:


> FYI gimme, this exact topic is pinned right above this thread


you're right...









*gets in the +1post count before closure*


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## Piranha Mcfly (Oct 12, 2006)

thebluyak said:


> my rhom has eaten ALOT of goldfish and his growth is outragous!!
> i think it is mostly "hype"
> but i have been wrong before


yeah and many are going to say your wrong now. Feeder goldfish not only stunt the growth but generally are nasty and contain diseases. So you say you qt them then, internal parasites are hard to spot when they are only qt for a week or two. Your best bet is to breed your own feeders so you know they are clean
[/quote]
flame on! lol 
check out my thread about my rhom
i fed him all fish, squid...ect now but when i first got him hundreds of goldfish
[/quote]
I have seen his post and the growth is pretty amazing that he is referring to. I think it is mostly "hype" as well. Where is the solid proof?
[/quote]

your kidding right? Do you really need solid proof that store bought feeder goldfish can easily contain parasites that you will let your p injest? Whatever feed ur P ur finger if you really want, but I dont see how you can feed your P's those nasty fish and be surprised when it has problems.
[/quote]

All I am saying is I have seen his post and his rhom's growth is impressive. Plus there are medicines out there that counteract the "possible" bad feeders. You always think you know everything but you don't. Where is your proof?? Show me the proof bro.


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

^^^ there is no proof, none at all
if so please correct me


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

Here's an article which details the decline of a salmon fishery, partially exacerbated by the presence of the thiaminase-filled alewife...

http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/fish/salmon/history.htm


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

ChilDawg said:


> Here's an article which details the decline of a salmon fishery, partially exacerbated by the presence of the thiaminase-filled alewife...
> 
> http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/fish/salmon/history.htm


ChilDawg,

Yes that is about it. Pretty much the same thing I referred to in my thread.
This increased juvenile/fry death still keeps lifting its head in the Baltic Sea Region from time to time.
Studies have been made on the effects of thiamine vaccination of adults during their spawning migration up to the rivers. And with fine but costy results.

One very important issue here is, however, that any stunted or even slow growth of Salmon adults have not been reported, only juvenile/fry death.

Harry


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

Piranha Mcfly said:


> my rhom has eaten ALOT of goldfish and his growth is outragous!!
> i think it is mostly "hype"
> but i have been wrong before


yeah and many are going to say your wrong now. Feeder goldfish not only stunt the growth but generally are nasty and contain diseases. So you say you qt them then, internal parasites are hard to spot when they are only qt for a week or two. Your best bet is to breed your own feeders so you know they are clean
[/quote]
flame on! lol 
check out my thread about my rhom
i fed him all fish, squid...ect now but when i first got him hundreds of goldfish
[/quote]
I have seen his post and the growth is pretty amazing that he is referring to. I think it is mostly "hype" as well. Where is the solid proof?
[/quote]

your kidding right? Do you really need solid proof that store bought feeder goldfish can easily contain parasites that you will let your p injest? Whatever feed ur P ur finger if you really want, but I dont see how you can feed your P's those nasty fish and be surprised when it has problems.
[/quote]

All I am saying is I have seen his post and his rhom's growth is impressive. Plus there are medicines out there that counteract the "possible" bad feeders. You always think you know everything but you don't. Where is your proof?? Show me the proof bro.








[/quote]

Look if u want to feed ur P's goldfish go right ahead, I honestly dont care what you do almost as much as I care about you. Dont be stupid and tell people goldfish carry no diseases and and perfect things to feed a piranha because new members might actually take you seriously. You want solid proof? http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?showtopic=135651

So I guess he thinks he knows everything to then huh? Yeah I didnt think so

its called reading, if you would do it sometimes you might actually know how goldfish can horribly affect you fish then you wouldnt try to be such a smartass in the feeding forum


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## Piranha Mcfly (Oct 12, 2006)

thebluyak said:


> my rhom has eaten ALOT of goldfish and his growth is outragous!!
> i think it is mostly "hype"
> but i have been wrong before


yeah and many are going to say your wrong now. Feeder goldfish not only stunt the growth but generally are nasty and contain diseases. So you say you qt them then, internal parasites are hard to spot when they are only qt for a week or two. Your best bet is to breed your own feeders so you know they are clean
[/quote]
flame on! lol 
check out my thread about my rhom
i fed him all fish, squid...ect now but when i first got him hundreds of goldfish
[/quote]
I have seen his post and the growth is pretty amazing that he is referring to. I think it is mostly "hype" as well. Where is the solid proof?
[/quote]

your kidding right? Do you really need solid proof that store bought feeder goldfish can easily contain parasites that you will let your p injest? Whatever feed ur P ur finger if you really want, but I dont see how you can feed your P's those nasty fish and be surprised when it has problems.
[/quote]

All I am saying is I have seen his post and his rhom's growth is impressive. Plus there are medicines out there that counteract the "possible" bad feeders. You always think you know everything but you don't. Where is your proof?? Show me the proof bro.








[/quote]

Look if u want to feed ur P's goldfish go right ahead, I honestly dont care what you do almost as much as I care about you. Dont be stupid and tell people goldfish carry no diseases and and perfect things to feed a piranha because new members might actually take you seriously. You want solid proof? http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?showtopic=135651

So I guess he thinks he knows everything to then huh? Yeah I didnt think so

its called reading, if you would do it sometimes you might actually know how goldfish can horribly affect you fish then you wouldnt try to be such a smartass in the feeding forum
[/quote]

I do read. I was just asking you to bring the proof. Good try on doing that too but you are still a pushy know-it-all member that I would estimate is probably about 14 or 15 years old. One day when and if you grow up and become more educated you will realize that you are not always right ( typical adolescent behavior). Maybe your mom should ban you from the computer.
I never said "Hey members, and I mean all members, feed your P's goldfish!") I simply stated that the previous poster used basically feeders until recently for his rhom and his rhom has been growing like crazy. The proof is in the pictures.


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

Piranha Mcfly said:


> my rhom has eaten ALOT of goldfish and his growth is outragous!!
> i think it is mostly "hype"
> but i have been wrong before


yeah and many are going to say your wrong now. Feeder goldfish not only stunt the growth but generally are nasty and contain diseases. So you say you qt them then, internal parasites are hard to spot when they are only qt for a week or two. Your best bet is to breed your own feeders so you know they are clean
[/quote]
flame on! lol 
check out my thread about my rhom
i fed him all fish, squid...ect now but when i first got him hundreds of goldfish
[/quote]
I have seen his post and the growth is pretty amazing that he is referring to. I think it is mostly "hype" as well. Where is the solid proof?
[/quote]

your kidding right? Do you really need solid proof that store bought feeder goldfish can easily contain parasites that you will let your p injest? Whatever feed ur P ur finger if you really want, but I dont see how you can feed your P's those nasty fish and be surprised when it has problems.
[/quote]

All I am saying is I have seen his post and his rhom's growth is impressive. Plus there are medicines out there that counteract the "possible" bad feeders. You always think you know everything but you don't. Where is your proof?? Show me the proof bro.








[/quote]

Look if u want to feed ur P's goldfish go right ahead, I honestly dont care what you do almost as much as I care about you. Dont be stupid and tell people goldfish carry no diseases and and perfect things to feed a piranha because new members might actually take you seriously. You want solid proof? http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?showtopic=135651

So I guess he thinks he knows everything to then huh? Yeah I didnt think so

its called reading, if you would do it sometimes you might actually know how goldfish can horribly affect you fish then you wouldnt try to be such a smartass in the feeding forum
[/quote]

I do read. I was just asking you to bring the proof. Good try on doing that too but you are still a pushy know-it-all member that I would estimate is probably about 14 or 15 years old. One day when and if you grow up and become more educated you will realize that you are not always right ( typical adolescent behavior). Maybe your mom should ban you from the computer.
I never said "Hey members, and I mean all members, feed your P's goldfish!") I simply stated that the previous poster used basically feeders until recently for his rhom and his rhom has been growing like crazy. The proof is in the pictures.
[/quote]

LOL OK mcflee or whatever, youve been here all of what a few months, so yeah you know how im so pushy with everything. Dont spread bad advice= dont say feeding goldfish causes big growth. I showed u proof, go read the article hannibal wrote. Feeding your piranha goldfish is like not wearing your seat belt, yeah it might not ever kill you but that one bad time it can and it only takes once so why take the risk?


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## Piranha Mcfly (Oct 12, 2006)

thebluyak said:


> my rhom has eaten ALOT of goldfish and his growth is outragous!!
> i think it is mostly "hype"
> but i have been wrong before


yeah and many are going to say your wrong now. Feeder goldfish not only stunt the growth but generally are nasty and contain diseases. So you say you qt them then, internal parasites are hard to spot when they are only qt for a week or two. Your best bet is to breed your own feeders so you know they are clean
[/quote]
flame on! lol 
check out my thread about my rhom
i fed him all fish, squid...ect now but when i first got him hundreds of goldfish
[/quote]
I have seen his post and the growth is pretty amazing that he is referring to. I think it is mostly "hype" as well. Where is the solid proof?
[/quote]

your kidding right? Do you really need solid proof that store bought feeder goldfish can easily contain parasites that you will let your p injest? Whatever feed ur P ur finger if you really want, but I dont see how you can feed your P's those nasty fish and be surprised when it has problems.
[/quote]

All I am saying is I have seen his post and his rhom's growth is impressive. Plus there are medicines out there that counteract the "possible" bad feeders. You always think you know everything but you don't. Where is your proof?? Show me the proof bro.








[/quote]

Look if u want to feed ur P's goldfish go right ahead, I honestly dont care what you do almost as much as I care about you. Dont be stupid and tell people goldfish carry no diseases and and perfect things to feed a piranha because new members might actually take you seriously. You want solid proof? http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?showtopic=135651

So I guess he thinks he knows everything to then huh? Yeah I didnt think so

its called reading, if you would do it sometimes you might actually know how goldfish can horribly affect you fish then you wouldnt try to be such a smartass in the feeding forum
[/quote]

I do read. I was just asking you to bring the proof. Good try on doing that too but you are still a pushy know-it-all member that I would estimate is probably about 14 or 15 years old. One day when and if you grow up and become more educated you will realize that you are not always right ( typical adolescent behavior). Maybe your mom should ban you from the computer.
I never said "Hey members, and I mean all members, feed your P's goldfish!") I simply stated that the previous poster used basically feeders until recently for his rhom and his rhom has been growing like crazy. The proof is in the pictures.
[/quote]

LOL OK mcflee or whatever, youve been here all of what a few months, so yeah you know how im so pushy with everything. Dont spread bad advice= dont say feeding goldfish causes big growth. I showed u proof, go read the article hannibal wrote. Feeding your piranha goldfish is like not wearing your seat belt, yeah it might not ever kill you but that one bad time it can and it only takes once so why take the risk?
[/quote]

You don't get it. Once again I simply stated that the previous poster used basically feeders until recently for his rhom and his rhom has been growing like crazy. THAT IS WHAT I SAID pushy teen.


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

as far as i know there has never been anything proven about stunting growth from goldfish
disease is another thing

edit, in the article you wanted Mcfly to read there is NOTHING that talks about stunting growth
not saying i would do it again but my fish have shown INCREADIBLE growth on mostly goldfish
in hind sight i would NOT do it again and he olny eats dead food now


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## Piranha Mcfly (Oct 12, 2006)

redrum781 said:


> as far as i know there has never been anything proven about stunting growth from goldfish
> disease is another thing
> 
> edit, in the article you wanted Mcfly to read there is NOTHING that talks about stunting growth
> ...


I will agree with this 100 percent.


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

this is crazy ,,,hey i just came from the pet shop and seen there feeder tank,,,,cloudy/over-stocked/dead fish floating every ware live fish eating dead ones,,, hahaha keep on fighting that good fight boyz,,,

breed some cons,,

or just chill and notice you didnt by the killers you though you had and give him some shrimp. peace out.


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

cueball said:


> this is crazy ,,,hey i just came from the pet shop and seen there feeder tank,,,,cloudy/over-stocked/dead fish floating every ware live fish eating dead ones,,, hahaha keep on fighting that good fight boyz,,,
> 
> breed some cons,,
> 
> or just chill and notice you didnt by the killers you though you had and give him some shrimp. peace out.


Thanks for the "proof"
not haten just sayin
show me proof that goldfish stunt growth!
period point blank.

anybody?
didn't think so


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## Piranha Mcfly (Oct 12, 2006)

redrum781 said:


> this is crazy ,,,hey i just came from the pet shop and seen there feeder tank,,,,cloudy/over-stocked/dead fish floating every ware live fish eating dead ones,,, hahaha keep on fighting that good fight boyz,,,
> 
> breed some cons,,
> 
> or just chill and notice you didnt by the killers you though you had and give him some shrimp. peace out.


Thanks for the "proof"
not haten just sayin
show me proof that goldfish stunt growth!
period point blank.

I consider Hannibal one of the smartest on this site. I haven't seen even any solid concrete proof from him. If he hasn't given any ( and he may have ) the bluyak sure as hell has'nt. I get thoe whole diseas thing....that is not what I am referring to.

anybody?
didn't think so
[/quote]


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

redrum781 said:


> this is crazy ,,,hey i just came from the pet shop and seen there feeder tank,,,,cloudy/over-stocked/dead fish floating every ware live fish eating dead ones,,, hahaha keep on fighting that good fight boyz,,,
> 
> breed some cons,,
> 
> or just chill and notice you didnt by the killers you though you had and give him some shrimp. peace out.


Thanks for the "proof"
not haten just sayin
show me proof that goldfish stunt growth!
period point blank.

anybody?
didn't think so
[/quote]

according to one of the members on here every fish can contain that growth inhibiting hormone, it was never aboutt he fact that goldfish provide slower growth rateseven though they are said they do. I dont know that, I dont feed them and of course its possible tog et good growth from feeding feeders, they are food you know which makes them grow. It was never about how much protein they provide in their diet. I said they are filthy and contain many bad things like ich, parasites, disease all kinds of stuff you DONT want injested in your fish.


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

dude you say you want proof,,,,,i got one for ya,,,

all the proof is dead foooo,,,or check out the head of that huge as red some one put up the other day,, you notice the hole in the head that fish had being raised off feeders,,,
is that enuf proof?
how bout you give us proof so we can see you by a wack of fish and have them all die.


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

cueball said:


> dude you say you want proof,,,,,i got one for ya,,,
> 
> all the proof is dead foooo,,,or check out the head of that huge as red some one put up the other day,, you notice the hole in the head that fish had being raised off feeders,,,
> is that enuf proof?
> how bout you give us proof so we can see you by a wack of fish and have them all die.


thank you, I dont see why he is determined to prove that feeding feeders is a Great diet and encourages execellent growth


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

i bet its cuz he is tryin to get a fight brewing

ban his punky brewster ass,,


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

cueball said:


> i bet its cuz he is tryin to get a fight brewing
> 
> ban his punky brewster ass,,


i know, he trys to take a shot at me every chance he gets, in about 5 different threads lol


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## the_skdster (Aug 15, 2006)

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!

:rasp:

*250th post, is now ADDICTED! -_-


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

thebluyak said:


> i bet its cuz he is tryin to get a fight brewing
> 
> ban his punky brewster ass,,


i know, he trys to take a shot at me every chance he gets, in about 5 different threads lol
[/quote]
hope u don't mean me, i have never taken a shot at anyone on this site
HITH i would put this under disease also
i was just talking about stunting growth, that is all
didn't mean to start a fight , soory


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## the_skdster (Aug 15, 2006)

redrum781 said:


> i bet its cuz he is tryin to get a fight brewing
> 
> ban his punky brewster ass,,


i know, he trys to take a shot at me every chance he gets, in about 5 different threads lol
[/quote]
hope u don't mean me, i have never taken a shot at anyone on this site
HITH i would put this under disease also
i was just talking about stunting growth, that is all
didn't mean to start a fight , soory
[/quote]
Well, at least we know your soory.


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## Piranha Mcfly (Oct 12, 2006)

the_skdster said:


> i bet its cuz he is tryin to get a fight brewing
> 
> ban his punky brewster ass,,


i know, he trys to take a shot at me every chance he gets, in about 5 different threads lol
[/quote]
hope u don't mean me, i have never taken a shot at anyone on this site
HITH i would put this under disease also
i was just talking about stunting growth, that is all
didn't mean to start a fight , soory
[/quote]
Well, at least we know your soory.








[/quote]

Are you referring to me bro? I just asked thebluyak to come with some proof which of course he did not.


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

the_skdster said:


> i bet its cuz he is tryin to get a fight brewing
> 
> ban his punky brewster ass,,


i know, he trys to take a shot at me every chance he gets, in about 5 different threads lol
[/quote]
hope u don't mean me, i have never taken a shot at anyone on this site
HITH i would put this under disease also
i was just talking about stunting growth, that is all
didn't mean to start a fight , soory
[/quote]
Well, at least we know your soory.








[/quote]
Rummys watchin you


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

no not u rum, mcflee


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## Adam12 (Jul 15, 2006)

Ive had p's in the past that where raised on goldfish and compared to the fish i have now there is no difference in the growth rate or health I also believe this to be just a belief. I, however after joining the forum and reading up on this constant topic, I now feed my p's shrimp and white fish fillets. Its also more convenient.


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## Piranha Mcfly (Oct 12, 2006)

Adam12 said:


> Ive had p's in the past that where raised on goldfish and compared to the fish i have now there is no difference in the growth rate or health I also believe this to be just a belief. I, however after joining the forum and reading up on this constant topic, I now feed my p's shrimp and white fish fillets. Its also more convenient.


hmmmm... interesting
Watch out or thebluyak will demand that you are lying and totally freak out. I agree with you about the convenience of white fish and shrimp.


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

This is from Frank (hastatus):

1.Goldfish contain the inhibitor, varied diet is always best. It does not just block growth (read below).
2. Goldfish are the main culprits regarding introduction of diseases and parasites that attack piranha.

"Vitamin B1

deficiency can result from diets containing fish with high thiaminase levels, and exogenous supplementation is required. Weight loss with adequate food intake is characteristic, but neurologic signs can also occur. Goldfish have low thiaminase activity, while smelt have extremely high levels. Freezing of fish decreases parasite loads but increases thiaminase levels. Posterior paresis progressing to flaccid paralysis and the loss of the righting reflex has been seen in iguanas and garter snakes, respectively, and is associated with a B-complex deficiency. Deficiencies of the water-soluble vitamins often involve more than 1 vitamin and require treatment with a multivitamin preparation"*
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.js...m/bc/171406.htm


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## Piranha Mcfly (Oct 12, 2006)

Mr. Hannibal said:


> This is from Frank (hastatus):
> 
> 1.Goldfish contain the inhibitor, varied diet is always best. It does not just block growth (read below).
> 2. Goldfish are the main culprits regarding introduction of diseases and parasites that attack piranha.
> ...


I am just wondering actually how much of an effect it has on p's fed goldfish. Is it minimal because what I have seen is nice growth from several different users who used a diet of feeders. I am not saying this is the right thing to do a varied diet is best IMO.


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## gimmemyshit (Oct 7, 2005)

I can't believe you guys sometimes.....this thread was just meant to encourage a varied diet not start a war. I notice a patern of a few members who like to have fights over these forums. Not neccesarily refering to anyone posting in this thread....but there is alot of hatin' going on lately. We all come here because we have common interests and wish to share and learn with other "Fishheads"......we need to play nice.


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## Piranha Mcfly (Oct 12, 2006)

gimmemyshit said:


> I can't believe you guys sometimes.....this thread was just meant to encourage a varied diet not start a war. I notice a patern of a few members who like to have fights over these forums. Not neccesarily refering to anyone posting in this thread....but there is alot of hatin' going on lately. We all come here because we have common interests and wish to share and learn with other "Fishheads"......we need to play nice.


Are you calling me....you calling me a "fishhead"? You mother....... j/k I agree with you 100 percent.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Piranha Mcfly Posted Today, 03:17 PM
> QUOTE(Mr. Hannibal @ Nov 6 2006, 06:21 PM)
> 
> This is from Frank (hastatus):
> ...


Here's my take on this entire matter. You asked for "proof" its been given to you not only in links but also valid scientific information. Had you taken the time to read the post that Hannibal made in my behalf you would have seen and read one particular line; _Goldfish have low thiaminase activity_... That does not mean the goldfish alone will stop growth, but it will inhibit it to a degree. Sorry, but I can't take your friends photos as "proof" of anything. But I can certainly produce plenty of diseased/parasitized piranhas that were fed exclusively on gold fish. Point is, 1 photo (your friends) does not make it a fact. Nor does someone stating they feed their piranha gold fish and see nothing wrong.

Giving a piranha a healthy diet surpasses any convenice diet. Feeding just goldfish is just laziness and lack of knowledge on what a proper diet is for a piranha.

Here are a couple photos of piranhas that were fed on gold fish alone. Note the worms and the HITH. Also to consider, overfeeding gold fish also spikes ammonia. But like I said, this might not be proof enough for you. Hopefully those with any brains will heed the warnings.


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## Piranha Mcfly (Oct 12, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > Piranha Mcfly Posted Today, 03:17 PM
> > QUOTE(Mr. Hannibal @ Nov 6 2006, 06:21 PM)
> >
> > This is from Frank (hastatus):
> ...


Not too shabby. I agree that goldfish can carry diseases that could harm your fish. I also do not believe that a goldfish strict diet is the way to go. All I have said is that the previous posters used goldfish to raise their P's and they were fine and saw great growth. I believe you that it is possible that it slows growth to some point but I feel like that point is very very minimal as long as the goldfish/feeders are healthy. Dammit doesn't anybody freaking listen.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Piranha Mcfly Posted Today, 05:49 AM
> 
> Not too shabby. I agree that goldfish can carry diseases that could harm your fish. I also do not believe that a goldfish strict diet is the way to go. *All I have said is that the previous posters used goldfish to raise their P's and they were fine and saw great growth. I believe you that it is possible that it slows growth to some point but I feel like that point is very very minimal as long as the goldfish/feeders are healthy. Dammit doesn't anybody freaking listen.*


In my opinion, it is you that is having a hard time grasping that your opinion is just that, an opinion based on assumptions against the evidence. 2 posters don't make your proof when I'm basing my evidence on over 40 years examining piranhas. You are assuming healthy goldfish. Who determines that? Still want to argue? You'll have to do it on your own. Someone else has already pegged you and what this thread has become.


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## lastgreengarden (Sep 13, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > Piranha Mcfly Posted Today, 05:49 AM
> >
> > Not too shabby. I agree that goldfish can carry diseases that could harm your fish. I also do not believe that a goldfish strict diet is the way to go. *All I have said is that the previous posters used goldfish to raise their P's and they were fine and saw great growth. I believe you that it is possible that it slows growth to some point but I feel like that point is very very minimal as long as the goldfish/feeders are healthy. Dammit doesn't anybody freaking listen.*
> 
> ...


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## MONGO  (Feb 7, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > Piranha Mcfly Posted Today, 05:49 AM
> >
> > Not too shabby. I agree that goldfish can carry diseases that could harm your fish. I also do not believe that a goldfish strict diet is the way to go. *All I have said is that the previous posters used goldfish to raise their P's and they were fine and saw great growth. I believe you that it is possible that it slows growth to some point but I feel like that point is very very minimal as long as the goldfish/feeders are healthy. Dammit doesn't anybody freaking listen.*
> 
> ...



















Mcfly







again


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

RockinTimbz said:


> > Piranha Mcfly Posted Today, 05:49 AM
> >
> > Not too shabby. I agree that goldfish can carry diseases that could harm your fish. I also do not believe that a goldfish strict diet is the way to go. *All I have said is that the previous posters used goldfish to raise their P's and they were fine and saw great growth. I believe you that it is possible that it slows growth to some point but I feel like that point is very very minimal as long as the goldfish/feeders are healthy. Dammit doesn't anybody freaking listen.*
> 
> ...



















Mcfly







again
[/quote]
have u seen my tread? just bumped it 4 u
just my opinion
has there been a study on how feeders stunt growth?
not saying they r good just want to see if there has been one


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

you want to see a stunted piranha,,,?

i now dont think its all what its cracked up to be, yes most of us are on a race to gow the biggest rhom/red so dose it realy make since to feed it junk food.IVE SEEN ENUF F*CKED UP REDS /RHOMS and i know thay were feed a poor diet,, so what more do you want ,,,,,, just grow a piranha of goldfish and let us know how ya make out.


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## Linford (Oct 26, 2006)

Its basic, feed all the normal gear to piranhas every day (krill, brine, shrimp types, beefheart, fillet, even pellets, on and on etc...) and if you want to watch for your personal amusment  feed a live feeder becuase thats the only property they with no nutritional value. But remember, everyone on this site knows what live feeders do to piranhas and carry (parasites etc...) so dont complain if your lovely p. suddenly dies!


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## gimmemyshit (Oct 7, 2005)

This is part of a faq from aquariumfish.com here is the link and exerpt......I will be back shortly with more " proof " for you although you could do a simple search and find it yourself.

Do lionfish need live feeder fish? 
Although it can be interesting to observe lionfish consuming feeder fish, feeder fish do not provide a nutritionally complete diet. It may be necessary to feed your lionfish live food initially, such as live ghost shrimp, fiddler crabs, freshwater crawfish, feeder guppies, mollies, or even cardinalfish or damselfish. Unfortunately, many aquarists feed their lionfish live feeder goldfish.

This is probably the worst possible choice. Raw goldfish flesh contains thiaminase, an enzyme that causes the breakdown of thiamin. If you feed your lionfish a diet that consists only of goldfish, they may become thiamin deficient. This can result in feeding cessation, clamped fins and problems with the nervous system. Yes, I have seen lionfish kept a number of years and fed only live feeder fish, but you are more likely to have success if you do not feed your lionfish live feeder goldfish. I prefer feeding live ghost shrimp to newly acquired lionfish. Before you introduce the shrimp to the lionfish tank, feed these crustaceans a nutritious frozen prepared food. Then, feed the shrimps to your lionfish. This is known as "gut packing"; you are packing the guts of the shrimp with nutrients that will be passed on to the predator consuming the shrimp.

Although some species are reluctant to accept anything but live food, you should attempt to switch your lionfish to nonliving food. One of the easiest ways to do this is to take a piece of marine fish flesh or a piece of fresh shrimp, and make it "swim" around the tank by attaching it to the end of a piece of rigid air line tubing. There are other ways to dupe your lionfish into taking onliving food - just use your imagination.

http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/B...680&search=


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## gimmemyshit (Oct 7, 2005)

Study that uses references from Cornell University and many other reputable sources states things like this:

b. Avoiding fish known to contain thiaminase - no red rosies or feeder goldfish! And who knows whether guppies or platys contain it or not?

c. Don't feed fish over once per week on an ongoing basis - ensuring the turtle eats nutritious food likely to contain thiamine (like reputable commercial turtle foods) when they've had no fish for a few days should help ensure the body gets to absorb thiamine.

But you can read the whole article and use the links below and the list of fish reported to contain Thiaminase to form your opinion........if in fact you read.....and actually understand some of this you may agree that feeding an all goldfish diet to a predator whether a fish , turtle, snake or any other is an ignorant irresponsible thing to do.....now you can stop being an arguemenative jackass and find something else to form an uneducated opinion about. By the way I found many studies including one on Garter Snakes, Red Ear Slider Turtles, Various Predator Fish that all come to the conclusion that any fool who will argue that it has no effect on his fish to feed him all cyprinids for the first years of his life or any other amount of time is officially a Giant Jackass. Please enjoy the following information and do a little searching for yourself.....then come back and show me your "proof" that your idiotic idea that feeding a Rhom all goldfish was a good idea. Thank You and please read carfully!!!

Thiaminase - What it is, why you care

by Richard Lunsford.

Often on our forums people ask about, allude to or otherwise mention thiaminase, typically in discussions about fish in turtle diets, particularly frozen fish. Let's talk about what it is, what it does, why it matters & what you should do about it.

1.) Thiamine is Vitamin B1 - a water-soluble vitamin involved in energy metabolism - much of what I know about it comes from its importance in thiamine deficiency in human alcoholics, but there's a lot more to it than that. Click to read about it at Nutrition.org. (Note: I saw both 'thiamine' & 'thiamin' spellings used in online sources).

2.) Chronic, heavy drinking alcoholics may over-rely on alcoholic beverages as a caloric source & eat poorly, developing a thiamine deficiency over long periods.

3.) This can eventually lead to acute confusional episodes called Wernicke's Encephalopathy. Click here to read about it.

4.) If this condition persists long enough, severely enough, it can lead to Korsakoff's Psychosis (covered in the same link given for Wernicke's Encephalopathy). K.P. is an anterograde amnestic state rather than a psychotic state. It can be permanent.

5.) This article at Cornell University states "In humans thiamin deficiency leads to a disease termed "beri-beri". Symptoms of beri-beri are basically the same as thiamin deficiency in other non-ruminants - anorexia, cardiac enlargement, and muscular weakness leading to ataxia. However, the disease has been divided into the following two forms:

i. Dry beri-beri - usually without cardiac involvement, this form of the disease is typified by atrophy of the legs and peripheral neuritis. It occurs mainly in adults.

ii. Wet beri-beri - the primary sign of this form of the disease is cardiac enlargement and edema."

6.) In turtles, we turn to the Practical Encyclopedia of Keeping & Breeding Tortoises & Freshwater Turtles, Page 90, where A. C. Highfield states a Vitamin B deficiency (he doesn't break it down, but B1 is clearly covered) can produce symptoms including muscle tremors, nervous type behavior and anorexia.

7.) Thiaminase (There are 2 types, Type I & Type II) is an enzyme.

8.) Enzymes are biological catalysts made of proteins.

9.) A catalyst is a substance that speeds up a chemical reaction without being consumed by that reaction. It makes reactions happen faster. Like if a log rots over 5 years, & you somehow catalyze all the chemical reactions involved & make it rot in 5 minutes.

10.) Our bodies require enzymes to speed some of the chemical reactions required in our metabolism.

11.) Thiaminase destroys Thiamine (Vitamin B1).

12.) Regular intake of substantial amounts of food containing thiaminase could introduce enough thiaminase into the gut to break down the thiamine in food & render an animal thiamine-deficient.

13.) Some fish contain thiaminase (Type I, not II) & some don't.

14.) For an in-depth discussion of thiamine's role in the body, Type I & Type II Thiaminase, check out this article at Cornell University.

15.) Nutrient Requirements of Mink and Foxes, Second Revised Edition, 1982, Pages 64 & 65, provides tables of fish reported to contain & not to contain thiaminase. A sampling from those tables (bold emphasizing fish you might use):

a. Fish Reported to contain Thiaminase:

White Bass - Morone chrysops

Bowfin - Amia calva

Bream - Abramis brama (Not the U.S. fish; see this link).

Buffalofish - Ictiobus cyprinellus

Bullhead catfish - Ameiurus m. melas

Carp - Cyprinus carpio

Channel Catfish - Ictalurus punctatus

Fathead minnow - Pimephales promelas (the red rosy is a color morph of this fish!)

Garfish (Garpike)

Goldfish - Carassius auratus

Moray Eel - Gymnothorax ocellatus (since someone recently asked about keeping the brackish water species with turtles&#8230

Gizzard Shad - Dorosoma cepedianum

Spottail Shiner - Notropis hudsonius

Buckeye shiner - Notropis atherinoides

Central Stoneroller - Campostoma anomalum pullum

Common White Sucker - Catostomus commersoni

Lake Whitefish - Coregonus clupeiformis

b. Fish Reported to not contain Thiaminase:

Largemouth Bass - Huro salmoides (I think that's actually now Micropterus salmoides)

Rock Bass - Ambloplites rupestris

Smallmouth Bass - Micropterus dolomieu

Bluegill - Lepomis macrochirus

Chub (Bloater) - Coregonus hoyi

Cod - Gadus morhua

Crappie - Pomoxis nigromaculatus

Eel - Anguilla rostrata

Northern Longnose Gar - Lepisosteus osseus oxyurus

Northern Pike - Esox lucius

Pumpkinseed - Lepomis gibbosus

Salmon - Salmo salar

Brown Trout - Salmo trutta fario

Lake Trout - Salvelinus namaycush

Rainbow Trout - Salmo gairdnerii irideus

Note: Be aware that fish are acquired from pet stores, bait stores, traditional rod & reel or cane poll fish & netting (dip net, casting net, seine). So you may get such fish as shad&#8230; Since bluegill & pumpkinseed don't contain thiaminase, I suspect the sunfish generally won't (but that's an assumption&#8230.

16.) It widely rumored that frozen fish is prone to contain more thiaminase than fish that has not been frozen. But why would this be so? Is it because thiaminase-containing fish are amongst species offered frozen, or because thiaminase is formed when some fish are frozen &/or thawed?

17.) It makes no sense to me that something as complex as an enzyme would 'accidentally happen' (be made) when fish is frozen & thawed. However, if thiaminase were contained in the fishes' cells, when those cells ruptured this might release thiaminase, making it easier to measure. I would expect digestion to rupture all the cells in a prey item, anyway.

18.) However, in Practical Encyclopedia of Keeping & Breeding Tortoises & Freshwater Turtles, on Page 90 A. C. Highfield states that the enzyme thiaminase forms in fish after death. I have no idea where he got such info. & can neither prove nor disprove it. He also states that aquatic turtles with a diet including fish should always be provided a concurrent vitamin B1 supplement.

19.) Thiaminase is of greatest concern to people feeding animals a fish-heavy diet, which while inappropriate for most species (i.e.: RES, stinkpots, etc&#8230 may be needful in some (Chitra softshells & Mata Mata turtles). Occasional feedings should be irrelevant, but frequent feeding could in theory keep enough thiaminase in the gut to degrade thiamine.

20.) Some Commercial Turtle Foods listing Thiamine on the label - ReptoMin® (for aquatic turtles, newts & frogs), Wardley® Reptile Sticks, Jurassi·Diet™ Aquatic Turtle Food, Jurassi·Diet™ Reptile Food, Nature Zone Aquatic Turtle Bites, T-Rex® Tortoise Dry Formula, Mazuri® Fresh Water Turtle Diet, Mazuri® Tortoise Diet.

21.) Options to combat thiaminase deficiencies include:

a. Oral supplementation of thiamine - I 'm not up on this. Most won't need to explore it but if you keep a Mata Mata, Chitra softshell or other animal with a high-fish (in some cases only fish) diet you'd better look into it.

b. Avoiding fish known to contain thiaminase - no red rosies or feeder goldfish! And who knows whether guppies or platys contain it or not?

c. Don't feed fish over once per week on an ongoing basis - ensuring the turtle eats nutritious food likely to contain thiamine (like reputable commercial turtle foods) when they've had no fish for a few days should help ensure the body gets to absorb thiamine.

d. Heat - that Cornell article points out that "Thiaminases are denatured by heat, therefore subjecting any of the sources of thiaminases to cooking or other heat treatment will render the thiaminases inactive." Unfortunately, it doesn't tell us how much or how long to heat it. Perhaps slow baking or broiling? In this case 'denature' refers to the breakdown of a protein under heat. Dictionary.com's entry includes a number of definitions of 'Denature,' including "To cause the tertiary structure of (a protein) to unfold, as with heat, alkali, or acid, so that some of its original properties, especially its biological activity, are diminished or eliminated."

Appendix of Useful Online Resources:

I.) Nutrition.org's Thiamine Info. Page.

II.) Cornell University's Thiaminase Article.

III.) Fish Base - an online relational database global info. system on fish claiming to have 28500 Species, 193900 Common names, 36700 Pictures, 33700 References, 1110 Collaborators & 11 million Hits/month. Their search page is useful to pulling up info. on wild fish species.

IV.) Dictionary.com - self-explanatory.


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

so finally mcflee listens to what ive been trying to say for the last 2-3 pages after frank owned him. I told you a looong time ago exactly what everyone has been saying now


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

loin fish now thats somthin i havent herd of in a wile,,,,are thay salt water or fresh,,,, please say fresh cuz i might try to find one


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## gimmemyshit (Oct 7, 2005)

Saltwater


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## Uncle Rico (Sep 4, 2005)

redrum781 said:


> my rhom has eaten ALOT of goldfish and his growth is outragous!!
> i think it is mostly "hype"
> but i have been wrong before


yeah and many are going to say your wrong now. Feeder goldfish not only stunt the growth but generally are nasty and contain diseases. So you say you qt them then, internal parasites are hard to spot when they are only qt for a week or two. Your best bet is to breed your own feeders so you know they are clean
[/quote]
flame on! lol 
check out my thread about my rhom
i fed him all fish, squid...ect now but when i first got him hundreds of goldfish
[/quote]
The thiaminase obviously has not stunted his Rhoms growth....I have seen it myself.


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## gimmemyshit (Oct 7, 2005)

I swear....you don't get it maybe the thiaminase didn't stunt his growth.....but it most definitely slowed it.....THATS WHAT THIAMINASE DOES.......how do you know that his fish wouldn't be an inch thicker if he was fed only shrimp and smelt....you don't.....the only point of this thread was to make it known to people like you that it is not "A GOOD IDEA" to feed feeders....especially exclusively.....Did you even read the long ass sh*t I posted....if you did you obviously don't understand it......THIAMINASE SLOWS GROWTH.....it's a fact.....his fish will still grow....maybe it will only slow it down a 1/4 inch a year who knows....but the fact is that it does infact inhibit growth.....and feeders do infact carry a higher risk of negetive effects on your fish than store bought fish of certain varieties....so in conclusion you are just attempting to argue that Thiaminase has no affect on a fish....you are wrong....maybe that particular fish didn't consume enough.....but it is a scientific fact....so unless you have something usefull to say stop arguing about something you don't know about.....your personal experiences with one fish...that isn't even yours....doesn't merit you to open your ignorant mouth say that years of experience and research are wrong. Any fish with Thiaminase in it is going to have an effect if it's fed all the time and the levels are high enough. Not all fish contain high enough levels.....you specifically said ( "The Thiaminase has not stunted his Rhoms growth.....I've seen it myself" ) You are dense sir! Maybe feeders havn't had an effect on him I'll give you that but Thiaminase as you stated would......And have you seen his fish everyday since he got it....even he doesnt know about normal Rhom growth....he bragged that his Rhom was growing fast and said " 1 inch a year my ass " the only thing is that his Rhom started at about 2" or so and they grow about 5-6" in the first year and a half....after that you could expect closer to 1-2" a year......anyway your stupid comments are not helpfull to anyone looking for real information.....you should try to comprehend the 2 posts I made before this and do a search on google for " Thiamine Deficiency" you will find that it occurs in humans...iguanas....and so on. Even if it has no imediate visual effect....the long term effects of thiamine deficency whether growth inhibtion or not will be present and manifest themselves as early or sudden death among other things.......But like I said if you just want to argue that it has no effect to feed a fish the same crap all the time ( feeders or otherwise ) then I am done with you and you should find another thread to insert your vauge, incoherent, unwanted, and uneducated opinion into. Now if you want to disscuss this subject with some actual knowledge besides seeing someone elses fish and concluding that he looks fine to you, then be my guest to come with your conversation.....I will gladly continue this conversation with you......but you should do a little searching and try to grasp what this subject is really about before subjecting those of us who actually care about learning more about our fish to your useless posts.....I guess what you were trying to say is that it's fine to feed your fish all feeders....cause I saw some other guys fish who looks fine in spite of it.....Well you my friend are not helping anyone by giving this advice. I could keep a betta in a dirty bowl and feed him plant roots like a bunch of other idiots but I know that they are carnivores and would do better on Black Worms......the other betta may grow just the same.....but will have problems for sure. I have one prize breeder betta kept in a 30 gal. and fed black worms and he has bred for me numerous times even though he is approaching 7 yrs of age ( I know because I spawned him myself ) Bettas usually live about 2-3 yrs....I can prove it with time stamped photos of him and his spawn mates growing.......anyway....the better care you provide the better results so don't promote all feeder diets to other members cause "it's not good" to put it real clear and simple to you. Gooday Sir!


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## thebluyak (Apr 14, 2006)

Thank you^^ and he is sitting here saying im an idiot for saying what I said

talk about Owned


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

so your telling me 2in to 8.25in in 1.5 years is normal?
and please link me to the tread or site where someone has had the same spawn of reds or serra's, separated them into two identical tanks and fed one group "good" food and one group goldfish.
i am lookin for info and that is all
btw don't be a dick to raj...uncle rico...he is a good guy
SAM

not trying to fight so don't be a dick, i am just curious


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## Piranha Mcfly (Oct 12, 2006)

Uncle Rico said:


> I swear....you don't get it maybe the thiaminase didn't stunt his growth.....but it most definitely slowed it.....THATS WHAT THIAMINASE DOES.......how do you know that his fish wouldn't be an inch thicker if he was fed only shrimp and smelt....you don't.....the only point of this thread was to make it known to people like you that it is not "A GOOD IDEA" to feed feeders....especially exclusively.....Did you even read the long ass sh*t I posted....if you did you obviously don't understand it......THIAMINASE SLOWS GROWTH.....it's a fact.....his fish will still grow....maybe it will only slow it down a 1/4 inch a year who knows....but the fact is that it does infact inhibit growth.....and feeders do infact carry a higher risk of negetive effects on your fish than store bought fish of certain varieties....so in conclusion you are just attempting to argue that Thiaminase has no affect on a fish....you are wrong....maybe that particular fish didn't consume enough.....but it is a scientific fact....so unless you have something usefull to say stop arguing about something you don't know about.....your personal experiences with one fish...that isn't even yours....doesn't merit you to open your ignorant mouth say that years of experience and research are wrong. Any fish with Thiaminase in it is going to have an effect if it's fed all the time and the levels are high enough. Not all fish contain high enough levels.....you specifically said ( "The Thiaminase has not stunted his Rhoms growth.....I've seen it myself" ) You are dense sir! Maybe feeders havn't had an effect on him I'll give you that but Thiaminase as you stated would......And have you seen his fish everyday since he got it....even he doesnt know about normal Rhom growth....he bragged that his Rhom was growing fast and said " 1 inch a year my ass " the only thing is that his Rhom started at about 2" or so and they grow about 5-6" in the first year and a half....after that you could expect closer to 1-2" a year......anyway your stupid comments are not helpfull to anyone looking for real information.....you should try to comprehend the 2 posts I made before this and do a search on google for " Thiamine Deficiency" you will find that it occurs in humans...iguanas....and so on. Even if it has no imediate visual effect....the long term effects of thiamine deficency whether growth inhibtion or not will be present and manifest themselves as early or sudden death among other things.......But like I said if you just want to argue that it has no effect to feed a fish the same crap all the time ( feeders or otherwise ) then I am done with you and you should find another thread to insert your vauge, incoherent, unwanted, and uneducated opinion into. Now if you want to disscuss this subject with some actual knowledge besides seeing someone elses fish and concluding that he looks fine to you, then be my guest to come with your conversation.....I will gladly continue this conversation with you......but you should do a little searching and try to grasp what this subject is really about before subjecting those of us who actually care about learning more about our fish to your useless posts.....I guess what you were trying to say is that it's fine to feed your fish all feeders....cause I saw some other guys fish who looks fine in spite of it.....Well you my friend are not helping anyone by giving this advice. I could keep a betta in a dirty bowl and feed him plant roots like a bunch of other idiots but I know that they are carnivores and would do better on Black Worms......the other betta may grow just the same.....but will have problems for sure. I have one prize breeder betta kept in a 30 gal. and fed black worms and he has bred for me numerous times even though he is approaching 7 yrs of age ( I know because I spawned him myself ) Bettas usually live about 2-3 yrs....I can prove it with time stamped photos of him and his spawn mates growing.......anyway....the better care you provide the better results so don't promote all feeder diets to other members cause "it's not good" to put it real clear and simple to you. Gooday Sir!


Actually it did not slow it according to the timeline he gave.


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## Piranha Mcfly (Oct 12, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > Piranha Mcfly Posted Today, 05:49 AM
> >
> > Not too shabby. I agree that goldfish can carry diseases that could harm your fish. I also do not believe that a goldfish strict diet is the way to go. *All I have said is that the previous posters used goldfish to raise their P's and they were fine and saw great growth. I believe you that it is possible that it slows growth to some point but I feel like that point is very very minimal as long as the goldfish/feeders are healthy. Dammit doesn't anybody freaking listen.*
> 
> ...


Sure I'll argue. His fish has grown fine on goldfish and has grown quickly.


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## gimmemyshit (Oct 7, 2005)

Again you are talking about an experience with one fish....plus lets see some time stamped photos with actual length.....I mean his measurments are all based on what he claims. In any event you have shown us nothing exept what someone claims about one particular fish.....I have posted studies done by reputable sources that state the effects of thiaminase on fish, lizards, turtles, ect. You have had several respectable members of P fury including "Mr. Hannibal"...and "Frank" try to explain some of this to you...Individual fish grow at a slightly different rate even in the same tank with spawn mates, so your experience with the growth of one rhom is not conclusive.....for the same reason it would be difficult to put two rhoms in a tank with a divider and feed one feeders and one shimp and get an obvious difference, in order for this to work properly you would have to keep them for life like that under the same conditions. Thiamine Deficency doesn't allways show itself as growth inhibition in the first two years of a fishes life...and may go away with hardly any ill effect if the appropriate diet is resumed...but if you feed a high thiaminase diet consistantly the fish will develop a thiamine deficiency and will eventually have health problems related to said deficiency. It is a fact that these deficiencies occur in fish, snakes, turtles, ect. when fed only comet goldfish, and I have supplied you with a proof in the form of real scientific evidence gathered through controled studieds and a means to find your own further confirmation...meanwhile you have shown us your counter arguement...." Well I saw this guys fish and it's grown fine on feeders ". Well assuming his measurements and timeline are correct, then his fish is in fact growing appropriately according to standard growth rates.....but this doesn't mean sh*t. If the fish is continually fed only feeders, he will end up with a deficiency....it may take 5 months or 10 years depending on the individual fish and the levels of thiaminase. In conclusion I will add that I think you are arguing for the sake of trying to save face.....and not to actually correct someone on this subject. I will ask that if you don't have some sort of real point to not bother to post on this thread anymore....you are simply going to confuse people and irritate those of us who have acctually taken the time to research this subject before interjecting a flacid opinion. I'm glad his fish appears to to in good health and I think I remeber him saying he stopped feeding comets awile ago...I hope that rhom lives long and grows well, but I will ask you again not to claim an all feeder diet is fine....because it is not. Whether it takes months or years the ill effects of thiaminase will be present in any fish fed all cyprinids. And in response to the comment that this is being taken too seriously...I care about my fish...I am attached to them and want them to live as long as possible and be comfortable...they where taken form a natural habitat to fill a demand at a pet store and should be taken seriously as pets and fellow living beings. They shouldn't be treated like lesser beings, they should be respected, admired, and understood to the best of my ability. My fishkeeping is fueled by a love of aquatic life...and I practice responsible care of my wet friends. I despise those of you who throw an oscar or piranha in a 10 gal uncycled tank and then expect them to kill stuff the first day...I spend time researching proper care of my particular fish and because of it I will enjoy them for years to come.












redrum781 said:


> so your telling me 2in to 8.25in in 1.5 years is normal?
> and please link me to the tread or site where someone has had the same spawn of reds or serra's, separated them into two identical tanks and fed one group "good" food and one group goldfish.
> i am lookin for info and that is all
> btw don't be a dick to raj...uncle rico...he is a good guy
> ...


And by the way....I allready posted actual proof provided by multiple studies....guess it was a long read for ya....either that or a little too confusing. And as I've stated above the putting fish in two different tanks thing your talking about wouldn't yield accurate results....you would have to keep them in the same tank (separated) for the extent of thier lives for it to work right. But I don't expect you to understand why because you seem to have trouble with the current discussion so we will take things one step at a time until you get it. And like I said before, do a search for Thiamine Deficiency.....and you will find all the proof you need that this stuff causes health problems in all sorts of reptiles and fish, most studies are done using cyrinids....specifically comet goldfish.


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

i thought i said DON'T be a dick
thanks
SAM


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## gimmemyshit (Oct 7, 2005)

redrum781 said:


> i thought i said DON'T be a dick
> thanks
> SAM


Brilliant!!!.....If I may say so sir it is you who appears to be a dick! I too may seem a little dickish but at least I managed to make my point...it seems the only way to get through to a pair of dicks is to persist with the same point, but increase the dickish tone in which I deliver it until he preceeds to call me a dick....at which point I can rest easy knowing that my attempt to reach out and help someone has been a success.







Glad I could help....cya round, LEVI.


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