# culturing bio balls



## MR.FREEZ

can you put bio balls in the tank and culture batceria untill you get everything you need to build your sump?


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## AzNxGuY2o9

i think bio balls cannot be submerged. The dripping effect with o2 is what makes it soo effective.


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## Peacock

AzNxGuY2o9 said:


> i think bio balls cannot be submerged. The dripping effect with o2 is what makes it soo effective.


 THis is a Myth...

I use bioballs Floating around on the surface of my tanks... (i cover the surface with them) and its added massive amounts of room for bacteria.... in some casses i have taked off my filters and just left an Air line in the tank to see how well they where doing...

they did great.

Bacteria dont do better in wetdrys.... the reason for this myth is because people think with the More o2 you have the FASTER and HARDER bacteria will work.. this is trash.. there is no evidence of bacteria getting "happy" with more O2 offered to them... Infact the Only way to make bacteria work harder is to Up the temp...

i use Bioballs in my submerged chambers aswell as in my wetdrys.... Wetdrys only advantage is the media does not clog....

Yes you can cultivate Masive colonies of bacteria on your bioballs by putting them in your tank..

also, remember, Bacteria work at a steady rate and only temp can make them faster, or slower.


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## Novato

I think so! listen to Peacock.


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## MR.FREEZ

cool peacock thanks i have my temp set at 79- 80 i think it work allright


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## Peacock

mr.freez said:


> cool peacock thanks i have my temp set at 79- 80 i think it work allright


 THats great..

if there is food to be eaten.. bacteria will grow.


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## Atlanta Braves Baby!

Interseting I have never heard that peacock.


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## Peacock

Atlanta Braves Baby! said:


> Interseting I have never heard that peacock.


 Which part? idd be glad to fill you in.


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## Guest

Peacock said:


> Bacteria dont do better in wetdrys.... the reason for this myth is because people think with the More o2 you have the FASTER and HARDER bacteria will work.. this is trash.. there is no evidence of bacteria getting "happy" with more O2 offered to them... Infact the Only way to make bacteria work harder is to Up the temp...
> 
> i use Bioballs in my submerged chambers aswell as in my wetdrys.... Wetdrys only advantage is the media does not clog....
> 
> Yes you can cultivate Masive colonies of bacteria on your bioballs by putting them in your tank..


 Peacock -Very interesting. I did a quick google search and found this abstract. 
It seems to support your theory that there is no strong correlation between high levels of dissolved oxygen and increased activity of nitrifying bacteria. 


> Rebecca M. Tarnowski. EFFECTS OF DISSOLVED OXYGEN CONCENTRATIONS ON NITRIFICATION IN COASTAL WATERS. (Under the direction of Dr. Robert R. Christian) Department of Biology, East Carolina University, February 1997.
> 
> ABSTRACT
> 
> Summer temperatures, although near optimal for ammonium oxidation, may indirectly cause a decrease in nitrifying activity in eutrophic systems. As heterotrophic metabolism increases as a result of a seasonal increase in temperature and increased availability of nutrients, the concentrations of dissolved oxygen may decrease. To examine the effect of in situ low dissolved oxygen concentrations on nitrifying bacteria, water column rates of nitrification and nitrifier densities were documented in 3 eutrophic systems that experience differing degrees of low oxygen conditions: a tidal salt marsh creek, a high marsh pool, and a coastal lagoon. Fluctuations in dissolved oxygen concentrations have been observed at each, but the magnitude and duration of these fluctuations differs among systems. Additionally, 2 experiments were conducted in the laboratory to examine how nitrifying bacteria respond to controlled oxygen concentrations over a week long incubation. Nitrification rates were estimated using the N-Serve sensitive 14C bicarbonate uptake technique (Billen, 1975) and nitrifier densities were estimated by the multiple tube dilution method with Most Probable Number statistical analysis.
> 
> No discernible in situ low oxygen effects on the rates or densities of nitrifying bacteria are observed through several analyses. No correlation was observed between dissolved oxygen concentrations and rates or densities. No difference was observed between rates or densities from times when oxygen concentrations were high and low. In addition, no difference in rates or densities was found between two sites that experience different degrees of low oxygen conditions. Lastly, no difference was found between rates from three different temperature ranges that reflect less than optimal, greater than optimal, and optimal temperatures for nitrifying bacteria. In the 2 laboratory experiments, rates appeared to be limited by oxygen concentrations below 0.5 mg/l.
> 
> There are several possible reasons for the observed lack of response of nitrifiers to in situ low oxygen conditions. First, in situ dissolved oxygen concentrations may not be low enough, or present for a long enough duration to illicit a response from nitrifying organisms. Second, there is a high degree of variability associated with the measurement techniques. Several factors may be responsible for this variability, including the tendency of nitrifiers to form aggregates, the presence of other autotrophic organisms, as well as the modifications made in the technique to ensure in situ dissolved oxygen conditions during incubations. Lastly, small rate changes that are indicative of a response may be lost because the method is not sensitive enough.


I'd be very interested to hear if anyone has data to support the opposite.


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## Peacock

Good artical!!!! thanks you for posting it..

Yes i to would be very interested in hearing different..


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## DonH

Peacock said:


> i use Bioballs in my submerged chambers aswell as in my wetdrys.... Wetdrys only advantage is the media does not clog....


 That was a very good read Bullsnake. Thanks for posting it, but even that article states that there are too many variables to make a conclusion (the last paragraph). With the test going down to D.O. levels below 0.5 mg/l, wouldn't you think that would come close to anaerobic conditions? Here's another article that might shed some light on the subject.



> *True nitrifying bacteria are strictly aerobic autotrophs.* They can only use nitrogen from inorganic sources such as ammonia and nitrite. Nitrosomonas (ammonia-oxidizers) and Nitrobacter (nitrite-oxidizers) are the most common.
> 
> *Heterotrophic bacteria* are generally considered to be organic sludge degraders. They are mostly from the genera Bacillus and Pseudomonas. *Most of these are facultative anaerobes; meaning they can function with or without oxygen.* They will do completely different functions depending on the level of dissolved oxygen present.
> 
> Heterotrophic "nitrifiers" prefer to obtain their nitrogen from organic sources such as decomposing organic debris. Those that can convert ammonia do so only when an organic nitrogen source is not available. *This is unlikely to happen in an aquarium or pond where fish are present. The explosion of "nitrifying" bacteria products in the industry is due to research that some heterotrophs can use ammonia-nitrogen. However, this is under ideal laboratory conditions. *
> 
> Heterotrophic "nitrifiers" generally cannot utilize nitrites. Only a few species are capable of reducing nitrite to free nitrogen, but, under strictly anaerobic conditions.
> 
> Scientific studies indicate that, depending on species, between one thousand to one million heterotrophic bacteria cells are required to perform the same ammonia conversion rate as one Nitrosomonas bacteria cell.
> 
> Heterotrophic "nitrifiers" can also operate in the reverse direction; that is they can convert nitrate to nitrite or ammonia, especially during times of low dissolved oxygen levels. In a pond, this could potentially happen during the hours before sunrise when DO levels are at their lowest.
> 
> There are no dry forms of any bacterial product that can contain viable Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter cells. Unlike heterotrophs, they cannot form spores so they cannot survive any type of drying or freeze-drying process.


Maybe the test done in the other article under lab conditions cultured heterotrophic bacteria due to the lack of dissolved oxygen?

Peacock, I read your debate on another forum but decided not to post since it was starting to get a bit heated. Even though the efficiency of nitrifiers is more temp dependent than D.O. dependent (which is still questionable since you know the chemical equation for nitrogen oxidation = oxygen dependent), they still need dissolved oxygen to function (that's why we have the term "oxidizing" bacteria). Before you start the debate about "Well, we only need a certain amount of dissolved oxygen just like a person only needs so much money to survive", dissolved oxygen has a saturation point. The higher the temp, the less D.O. the water can hold (no matter how much surface agitation or airstones you put in the water). So in a predatory fish tank, which is commonly overfed and overstocked, which type of filtration would you prefer? One that takes D.O. from the water and away from the fish, or one that takes it from the atmosphere through the "trickling effect" before it reaches the nitrifiers? In case of a power outage, which type of media do you think will go anaerobic quicker? The media not clogging is NOT the only advantage of a wet/dry...

As a side note, high temp can also disrupt nitrifiers. Temp in the 90s will slow down biological activity and above 95 will kill them.

I never read anything about nitrifiers being more "happy" given more O2. The chemical reaction to oxidize ammonia/nitrite requires a certain amount of oxygen dependent on the amount of ammonia/nitirte oxidized (remember your chemical equation?). It does not need any more than that. On the other hand, you can't think of the system as just the nitrifiers. It contains fish, plants, other aquatic organism (snails, nematodes, copepods, etc.). These are also factors where dissolved oxygen levels are critical.

BTW, your bioballs floating on the surface of your indoor pond acts like wet/dry media, NOT submerged media. The surface agitation moves the bioballs around exposing the surface area to wet and dry conditions.


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## MR.FREEZ

thats alot of info to retain so ill be allright with em on top just floating around like that right
they do seem to help agitate the water pretty good
and i only have 4 4" reds in there a 100 gal
and a little later a big pleco


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## Peacock

Yes! thanks for commenting DonH....

Your artical doesnt realy laydown much information. (i could have just Read it wrong).. it just talks about Hetertrofics and how they can also convert Amonia to Nitrate under ideal conditions. it allso says that can work backwards.

True, the lab report shown sugest there is many factors involved but they did come to the conclusions with their experiments :



> No discernible in situ low oxygen effects on the rates or densities of nitrifying bacteria are observed through several analyses. No correlation was observed between dissolved oxygen concentrations and rates or densities. No difference was observed between rates or densities from times when oxygen concentrations were high and low. In addition, no difference in rates or densities was found between two sites that experience different degrees of low oxygen conditions. Lastly, no difference was found between rates from three different temperature ranges that reflect less than optimal, greater than optimal, and optimal temperatures for nitrifying bacteria. In the 2 laboratory experiments, rates appeared to be limited by oxygen concentrations below 0.5 mg/l.


those facts showed up in their expeiriment. (if im reading it correctly)



> Peacock, I read your debate on another forum but decided not to post since it was starting to get a bit heated. Even though the efficiency of nitrifiers is more temp dependent than D.O. dependent (which is still questionable since you know the chemical equation for nitrogen oxidation = oxygen dependent), they still need dissolved oxygen to function (that's why we have the term "oxidizing" bacteria).


Yes DonH. Im not saying they dont need oxygen. im saying the Rate in which they Oxidise is not effected by oxygen, unless its in the extream lows, just like what that artical stated..



> The higher the temp, the less D.O. the water can hold (no matter how much surface agitation or airstones you put in the water).


This is true, But if you do use airstones or diffusers the Oxygen will quickly be replenished if being used.. it would be like a car running around with a fuel pump built-in allways keeping the tank full... the Car can just hold a certain amount but everytime the car uses gas the pump fills it up, in term "keeping it full"..

do you disagree?

im glad you brought this to my attention DonH, THis is why i allways look up to you.



> So in a predatory fish tank, which is commonly overfed and overstocked, which type of filtration would you prefer? One that takes D.O. from the water and away from the fish, or one that takes it from the atmosphere through the "trickling effect" before it reaches the nitrifiers? In case of a power outage, which type of media do you think will go anaerobic quicker? The media not clogging is NOT the only advantage of a wet/dry...


I cannot argue that. You are correct. although i allways run airstones in my Heavily stocked tanks.. Here is a question. In Asia to my knowledge most everyone uses Submersable media apose to wetdrys.. Like in CDMs case.. i dont think he has Airstones either. but tell me, his tank is Horidly overstocked.. How does that work if he has no Airstones? all his Oxidising Bacteria are using the O2 from the tank. Could this be that the FIlterflow and Surface area of the water is allways keeping O2 Stocked in the tank? can i get your Opinion?

there is one point i want to bring up.. the Power outage.. the water in the wetdry with out a heater is quickly going to cool down to the temp of the room... now in a Prolong outage where the house startes to get cold.. would this Harm the bacteria? can dropping 30 degrees be leathal to bacteria if its in a couple hour span? This im unsure of. please comment.

i dont think either have advantage over a poweroutage.. unless your submersable chamber is Very small and only allows small amounts of water to sit.. (none of mine are, and either are most Home mades) because the wetdry IME cools down fast and can even dry out.. (i used to get powerouts as long as a day, but i allways added fresh tank water to my filters) This is only true if Bacteria are killed by the Lowering of the temp...

but in a short term poweroutage Both of them are fine..

you said it your self DonH!!!!



> I never read anything about nitrifiers being more "happy" given more O2. The chemical reaction to oxidize ammonia/nitrite requires a certain amount of oxygen dependent on the amount of ammonia/nitirte oxidized (remember your chemical equation?). It does not need any more than that.


Yes the equations!!! Like you said and i have been saying.. they Only use a certain amount Per transaction.. they dont Use More to make it faster..



> On the other hand, you can't think of the system as just the nitrifiers. It contains fish, plants, other aquatic organism (snails, nematodes, copepods, etc.). These are also factors where dissolved oxygen levels are critical.


yes they are all tied together.. with out these other organisms you wouldnt have the bacteria.. But im saying there is typicaly Allways an excessive amount of O2 for the bacteria to Work and your fish to thrive (thats if you keep the GH correct














).. Remember, the Airstones are Keeping the O2 replenished. am i correct? so unless you have a very small tank, with 10000 fish and no airstone your system will work at the same rate as wetdry will..

DonH im saying a Wetdry does not have a Faster working Rate then submersable media. do you agree?



> BTW, your bioballs floating on the surface of your indoor pond acts like wet/dry media, NOT submerged media. The surface agitation moves the bioballs around exposing the surface area to wet and dry conditions.


Yes thats true.. im not sure where i said they where submerged media but if i did i was being a moron.. some one asked if they would work outside of a wetdry.. and i said yes.. and then got into the submerged media thing.. but yes.. they rotate around just like a biowheel..

the conclusion.

Bacteria Living on wetdrys do not have a faster working rate then bacteria living submerged under the tank, thats If and only if the DO levels of your tank are allways being replenished. If not then you will run out of DO and your fish and bacteria will die...

Advantages to wertdrys over Submerged media. little clogging, Less DO being taken from the tank water (not that it matters in most cases), and little anerobic bacteria collonies..

Advantages Submerged media has over wetdrys. 100% media usage, and typicaly easier to build.

DonH do you understand the 100% media usage?








:smile:


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## DonH

Peacock said:


> Your artical doesnt realy laydown much information. (i could have just Read it wrong).. it just talks about Hetertrofics and how they can also convert Amonia to Nitrate under ideal conditions. it allso says that can work backwards.


The article states more than that. Let me summarize the two main points...

1) True nitrifying bacteria that are found in ponds and aquariums are *strictly aerobic autotrophs*.

2) Heterotrophic bacteria are facultative anaerobes that can function with or without oxygen (but they are NOT the ones mainly responsible for nitrification).

My assumption is that under lab conditions in the first article, they _might_ have cultured heterotrophic bacteria in their experiment. Thus, the collection of data is with the wrong type of bacteria. With the tests going to under 0.5 mg/l, they still show nitrification. If the population was not affected, this tells me that they are heterotrophic bacteria, since we are pretty much talking about anaerobic conditions. At D.O. under 2 mg/l (ppm), you should already be seeing fish deaths. Nitrification is D.O. dependent because we are dealing with AEROBIC autotrophs.

Also, as far as your theory on "Infact the Only way to make bacteria work harder is to Up the temp..." That first article also states:



> Lastly, no difference was found between rates from three different temperature ranges that reflect less than optimal, greater than optimal, and optimal temperatures for nitrifying bacteria.


So according to the article, your theory is wrong...



> True, the lab report shown sugest there is many factors involved but they did come to the conclusions with their experiments :


Can you really come to a concrete conclusion with so many factors involved in the test?









Here are my conclusions... The strength and population of nitrifying bacteria is dependent on food source. The more ammonia/nitrite present, the higher the number of nitrifiers to oxidize it (assuming enough surface area is provided). All they need is water parameter (pH, KH, and temp) in the proper range for them to do their job.

I don't want to get into a long debate about what type of filters is the best. Every type of filter has it's advantages and has its place in the hobby (even a UG filter if you know how to use it).



> DonH do you understand the 100% media usage?


Yes, I know what that means...








So what? Without proper maintenance, submerged media will be clogged with detritus over time. Will you have 100% media usage then?


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## Peacock

Ill Post something when i get back from the dentist.. i have to get my wisdom teeth pulled...damnet..

thanks for commenting DonH. its allways a pleasure.


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## nitrofish

Peacock said:


> AzNxGuY2o9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i think bio balls cannot be submerged. The dripping effect with o2 is what makes it soo effective.
> 
> 
> 
> THis is a Myth...
> 
> I use bioballs Floating around on the surface of my tanks... (i cover the surface with them) and its added massive amounts of room for bacteria....
Click to expand...

 but wheres your flow? I can't see how floating bioballs would help enough to make a difference.


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## Peacock

DonH said:



> Peacock said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your artical doesnt realy laydown much information. (i could have just Read it wrong).. it just talks about Hetertrofics and how they can also convert Amonia to Nitrate under ideal conditions. it allso says that can work backwards.
> 
> 
> 
> The article states more than that. Let me summarize the two main points...
> 
> 1) True nitrifying bacteria that are found in ponds and aquariums are *strictly aerobic autotrophs*.
> 
> 2) Heterotrophic bacteria are facultative anaerobes that can function with or without oxygen (but they are NOT the ones mainly responsible for nitrification).
> 
> My assumption is that under lab conditions in the first article, they _might_ have cultured heterotrophic bacteria in their experiment. Thus, the collection of data is with the wrong type of bacteria. With the tests going to under 0.5 mg/l, they still show nitrification. If the population was not affected, this tells me that they are heterotrophic bacteria, since we are pretty much talking about anaerobic conditions. At D.O. under 2 mg/l (ppm), you should already be seeing fish deaths. Nitrification is D.O. dependent because we are dealing with AEROBIC autotrophs.
> 
> Also, as far as your theory on "Infact the Only way to make bacteria work harder is to Up the temp..." That first article also states:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly, no difference was found between rates from three different temperature ranges that reflect less than optimal, greater than optimal, and optimal temperatures for nitrifying bacteria.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So according to the article, your theory is wrong...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, the lab report shown sugest there is many factors involved but they did come to the conclusions with their experiments :
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you really come to a concrete conclusion with so many factors involved in the test?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are my conclusions... The strength and population of nitrifying bacteria is dependent on food source. The more ammonia/nitrite present, the higher the number of nitrifiers to oxidize it (assuming enough surface area is provided). All they need is water parameter (pH, KH, and temp) in the proper range for them to do their job.
> 
> I don't want to get into a long debate about what type of filters is the best. Every type of filter has it's advantages and has its place in the hobby (even a UG filter if you know how to use it).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DonH do you understand the 100% media usage?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, I know what that means...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what? Without proper maintenance, submerged media will be clogged with detritus over time. Will you have 100% media usage then?
Click to expand...

 So you think these guys didnt know they were working with a species of Heterotrophic? hmmmm.. I see why you think this but i dont know man.. Why would they not be able to identify the species? Yes, there are millions of species but wouldnt you think they DNA tested a couple to be sure its Nitrifyers? Dont you think these guys can identify Nitrifyers? this kinda angers me, they type up this Focking lab report and they could be cultering the WRONG bacteria.. oh the anger i am having right now with my 4 teeth gone and this now sinking in...

















So DonH, what about at higher levels of DO... do you think the conversion in their labs and testing was ALL heterotrophic? even at higher levels of DO? you dont think that maybe they were Culturing Nitrifyers at a higher level DO but then when the DO got below a certain point they died off and Heterotrophics and realy started to kick in? because they tested at 3 levels.. 2 in which where fine for the Nitrifyers, am i correct?

i dont know man.. i need to go to college.. i think i have gone as far as i can without some schooling in this field.

about the Temp.. i have read a few lab reports where they sugest Higher temps (to a point, the graph makes a Perabala (spelling)) will increas the metabolsim of the bacteria... Is this wrong to your knowledge? its not my theory... i read it in a few books at my school and on the net.. is it true?

yes.. about Bacteria only being Dependant on a food source.... this is what i said many times in both those debates that got out of hand... Bacteria are never limited to the DO in your tank (thats if its not at an extream low, to where your fish are dying off..) .. they are limited by the amount of the Waste produced...

In the Home aquaria : "The strength and population of nitrifying bacteria is dependent on food source. The more ammonia/nitrite present, the higher the number of nitrifiers to oxidize it (assuming enough surface area is provided). All they need is water parameter (pH, KH, and temp) in the proper range for them to do their job. " i like how you put that.

well DonH, we were pretty much on the same page here in this little "talk".. im very pleased i found a Forum inwhich we both could post at.. if you dont mind taking a look at the little coments i had above and saying a little something.. other then that ill say we did a bang up job in comming to a conclusion.. thanks man. allways a pleasure.


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## DonH

There was no mention of any DNA testing in that abstract to determine what type of nitrifiers they were measuring the population of. I don't think it was their purpose to identify the species, it's just to prove that nitrification does occur in conditions of very low dissolved oxygen. Unfortunately, those conditions don't occur in a pond or aquarium system. There are different types of nitrifiers (found in freshwater, saltwater, sewage treatment plants, etc.). I'm not saying that the article is useless, but in supporting your theory, it doesn't hold water IMO.

As for temp, I'm not sure if the efficiency of nitrifiers is a bell curve (parabola). All I know is, they function within a certain range. Within that range, I'm not sure if efficiency is increased (although it makes sense that it would). That's probably why it's common practice to raise the temp to speed up the cycling process.

I think we kinda derailed this thread. Sorry...


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## Peacock

my theory states..

Bacteria are never Starved from O2 in the Home aquaria.. so its not needed to Use a wetdry to Increase DO for the bacteria..

Do you agree?


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