# meanest shoal/school generally speaking?



## ezlife (Jan 25, 2003)

I was reading the facts sheet on this forum and from what i got out of it, red bellies, pirya, and caribe are the only piranhas that school together right?

so from what i *think*:

1) piryas- are the meanest schoolers
2) caribe is next
3) finally the common pet store red bellies

Am I right? If so who sells baby (dime or quarter size) pirayas and caribe and how much are they? How hard is it when it comes to resell? lets say i move or somethign, will it be easy or hard to get rid of pirayas and caribe? thanks, any and all info appreciated


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## Outie (Feb 19, 2003)

I think what your wondering is if the pygos (natts, piraya,caribe) shoal together at the home aquaria then yes you are correct. In the wild however there are many different types that shoal and are hard to reproduce in the home because we don't own 1000+ gallon aquariums. So yes reds, piraya, and caribe shoal together also you cant generalize on which is more aggressive than other it really depends on the fish itself and its aggressivness. Out of the peopleon the boards and by my little experience with the piraya I have i would say yes they are aggressive but then again thats just a opinion from me.


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## Outie (Feb 19, 2003)

You most likely will not be able to find piraya or caribe dime sized usually 2-3 inches is the smallest and even that is hard to come buy. There is great guy on here he name is "fishpost" he will hook you up with what you need. Piraya tend to be the most expensive because of there rarity, then ternetzi ( a different coloration of a redbelly), and then caribes. And ofcourse reds being the cheapest because they have been breed tons of times in home aquarium, pet stores, etc...


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

As far as i know a Cariba shoal is the most fearsome in the wild (use to be 30 or more of them together) or in captivity (most territorial).

As individual i agree Piraya is the meanest but if whe are talking about many Ps, i think Cariba get the award!


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## SnowCichlid. (Jan 10, 2003)

Outie said:


> you cant generalize on which is more aggressive than other it really depends on the fish itself and its aggressivness.










you said it, just thought I'd back you up a little


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## MPower (Jan 29, 2003)

I agree, Caribe are by far more aggressive in shoal. I had 15 and they tore anything up in the tank and not to mention they ate alot more than other pygos I had.


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Are we talking about only Pygos here? If so then you all have good points. If not, then...

A spilo school is pretty cool too. I have 10 in my 180 and they are pretty aggressive. Now I dont want to speculate they are more aggressive then caribe or piraya, because frankly, I have never "personally" witnessed either group. However I do know that they are definately not skiddish, more more more aggressive then my reds i used to have, and alway hungry.

Perhaps if someone lives in the LA area you can come over and take a look. I think that you guys are underestimating the sheer aggression on a spilo tank.

~Dj


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## WebHostExpert (Jan 16, 2003)

Mean pack of Natts.
MAD


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Here is a pic of my spilo tank. I know you cant see them all, but there are 10 in there. In a few months when the hit 5" ill get a pinkie mouse and post a vid. Im tired of all this "pygo only" mouse videos. hAhHAHa.... I have more pics in my signature...

~Dj

If you cant see this one click on the link below.


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

I was speaking with Frank this weekend and he brought up an interesting point of a schoal of piranha's in the wild can often be mixed between different pygos and even serrasalmus. He told me that often times you can find them schoaling together in the wild. I believe its because serrasalmus are not necessarily more aggressive than pygos except when kept in a limited area. When they're in the wild they have much more wide open spaces to claim territory and with an aquarium the space is much more cramped and the territory claimed often by a serra is even too small and anything that invades its cramped territory is viewed as a threat to its kingdom. Feel free to add anything to this or tell me where there may be a flaw.


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

I totally aggree with you rosecutyrhom. It was very obvous by those pics from survivor that Serras (big rhoms) to school on occasion with Pygos.

~Dj


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## MPower (Jan 29, 2003)

I forgot whos tank. But I rember he had a 500g. With a all types of p's. He had all types of pygos mixed in with large rhoms and various serras. Very nice.


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

I saw a photo similar to that myself. I'll leave it to that person to read this thread and maybe post a pic of it cause they should know who they are. But it was a rather large tank and I picked out a few nattereri but what really caught my eye were 2 much larger silverish piranhas that I was unsure of what they were...I didn't think they were any pygo as the pygos like Caribe, Nattereri, and Piraya are not that grey/silver if even at all. I instantly thought they must be a serrasalmus class. I didn't see any black stripe down the face so I ruled out Geyri which are also another shoaling Serra as well as Spilopluera. My only guesses were either Rhombeus or Altuvei. I'll see if I can PM the person to give me the pic or have them post it in this thread to see what you all think


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

That tank that you are refering to was quickly taken over by the rhoms. There are a few pics of it when it was first set up, but I was told that after 3months the big rhoms had already killed many of the big pygos.

~Dj


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

I thought they were rhoms...thanks for confirming it.


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## MPower (Jan 29, 2003)

Whos tank was it?


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

I can't say or this might happen to me


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## Show_Me_The_Teeth (Dec 4, 2002)

No one even mention ternetzis. I am disappointed. I know they are related to reds but come on if any of you ever have owned them they do not act like reds. One minute they are calm the next they are flipping out and going balistic in the tank. Ask "meanfish" predatoryfish.net how aggressive ternetzis are. I know he was trying to put together a ternetzi tank but they started to kill each other off so he quit. I wonder what ever happen to his fish.

SMTT

Caribe are still amazing!


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Here are the pics. Its a 500 gallon tank. This is definately by far the best school picture that I have ever see, PERIOD!!! You can clearly see that there are a few rhoms in with these pygos:


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Again I want to stress that this tank did not last long. It was a matter of a few months before the rhoms had killed alot of the big pygos. This ultimately led to the owner removing them.

~Dj


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

That has to be one of the best driftwood set ups I've seen


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

I would think the main reason ternetzi(yellow nattereri) seem more aggressive to owners is they are wild caught where most of our red bellied nattereri are tank breed and more used to captivity.


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## MPower (Jan 29, 2003)

Yep thats the tank. That is just sick. Kinda sucks his rhoms ate his pygos. None the less sick.


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## Show_Me_The_Teeth (Dec 4, 2002)

Wild reds vs Ternetzis....the ternetzis are still moreaggressive in my opinion.

SMTT

PS It is not long before we have sucessfully bred ternetzis.


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

> PS It is not long before we have sucessfully bred ternetzis.


True...I imagine its the same obstacle faced when first trying to breed red bellies that were wild caught.


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

I figure if they are indeed more aggressive than wild caught reds then it must have to do with they're location and the conditions there.


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## RhomZilla (Feb 12, 2003)

I'd have to leave this debate to you guys. I can only go by hear say, plus only had RBs in my life. But like Outie said, its more depending on the fish itself. BUt honestly, my choice would be in the order of Piraya, Caribe and then the ever popular RBs.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

pygos arent naturally together with other pygos in the wild


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

I dont prefer the look of a mixed tank, of course its hard to not want one of every pygo. I like Bob Hare's Geryi shoal or the Irritans shoal that i have seen.... Those guys were completely NUTS


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Show_Me_The_Teeth said:


> Ask "meanfish" predatoryfish.net how aggressive ternetzis are. I know he was trying to put together a ternetzi tank but they started to kill each other off so he quit. I wonder what ever happen to his fish.
> 
> SMTT
> 
> Caribe are still amazing!


 I got one of them, and he is a mean bastard, by far the most aggressive and territorial in my tank.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> I know they are related to reds


. They are the same species but a yellow form of P. nattereri.



> I figure if they are indeed more aggressive than wild caught reds then it must have to do with they're location and the conditions there.


 The only accurate description is conditions. Fish are conditioned to certain responses. It goes back to what I have said a few times, your mind lets you see what you want to believe. Doesn't necessarily make it so. How does one measure aggressive response when there are so many variables and influences, ie; water temperature, pH, and stimuli.



> pygos arent naturally together with other pygos in the wild


 Yes they are, just not the 3 species found in genus Pygocentrus.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > pygos arent naturally together with other pygos in the wild
> 
> 
> Yes they are, just not the 3 species found in genus Pygocentrus.


 thats what I meant







as in pygos arent found with other species of pygos

example Natts arent with Piraya


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Show_Me_The_Teeth said:


> PS It is not long before we have sucessfully bred ternetzis.


 How do you know this hasn't already happened?


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## ezlife (Jan 25, 2003)

Wow, many replies, thanks.

Off topic: in the factssheet in this forum the last paragraph (if i rmemeber correctly) it said rhoms COULD school together in the wild. So just a possibility. I guess if you had a 1000+ gallon aquarium and raised them all from babies till full grown (lol like 20 years) you MIGHT have a chance.

So more about costs, so dime/quarter size caribe or piraya are out of the question right? so generally speaking how much are 2-3 inch ones. i got a quote that 2-3" piraya costs $100. kind of expensive if you wanted to set up something like MAD with 41 hmmm.


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

2-3 inch piraya, caribe, and ternz are pertty much teh smallest that you will find for any of these species. At this size they are brought in from wild sources, so finding dime/quarter sizes is pretty much impossible. The only reason that Reds are found so small is because they are largely tank breeed species. As far a price I cant really remember what they were going for, Piraya and Ternz will be pretty expensive regardless with Caribe being the lowest of the three. 
~Dj


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## bozley (Mar 12, 2003)

that tank is insane. I'd like to see more pictures of the entire setup if anyones got 'em.


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## Show_Me_The_Teeth (Dec 4, 2002)

Neoplasia said:


> Show_Me_The_Teeth said:
> 
> 
> > PS It is not long before we have sucessfully bred ternetzis.
> ...


 Can you tell me who did it and has documented it. I would be thrilled to know because I would like to try. I have 4 of them and I know there is atleast one female.

SMTT


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Frank told me somebody did breed Ternetzi, I am going to contact the fellow next week he lives 15 minutes away, it happened several years ago though









I will let you all know


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> it happened several years ago though


 Your information is way way way out in left field somewhere. The fish were originally being bred quite successfully before and after being sold to Bud Guyer. These were then being replaced by other pairs derived from this original pair. These are at least up to 2001 or 2 still being bred. If you are going to cite information from me, please get it right.

Thank you.


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## Show_Me_The_Teeth (Dec 4, 2002)

Frank is there any documention on how they bred ie water conditions, tank requirements, and so forth.

SMTT


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Frank is there any documention on how they bred ie water conditions, tank requirements, and so forth.


 I published this information in Journal of Piranhas and Other Predatory Fishes and Pira-News2000 (the former, a monthly newsletter for subscribers about 4 years ago). Bud was doing massive water changes 3-4 times a week at 20% with a pH level of 7.2. He did not record hardness and the aquario used was 55 g. He bred the common red-belly in the same fashion. He has a success breeding operation that is not limited to this species. Back in those days, I suggested to him to secure P. cariba from a couple people I knew that were breeding them and I believe, though I am unsure, he did get some. His facility uses wet/dry system.


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## MPower (Jan 29, 2003)

Isn't 3-4times a week @20% a little overboard? I thought that it isn't healthy with that much water change. I do water changes about 1-2 weeks @20%. Do recomend this 3-4 times weekly?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Do recomend this 3-4 times weekly?


 I don't recommend anything, this was information provided by a reputable fish breeder of unusual fishes. You will have to use your own judgement to determine whether or not this works with your fish.



> Isn't 3-4times a week @20% a little overboard?


 Each person has their own success stories and as I have mentioned many times before, what works for one person may not work for you. Some hobbyists succeed in breeding piranas by doing nothing other than providing good care and conditions. It is entirely up to your fishes if they are ready or not.


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## WebHostExpert (Jan 16, 2003)

Right on frank.
MAD


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## Petzl88 (Feb 5, 2003)

:nod: Yes sir.


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## WebHostExpert (Jan 16, 2003)

humm ok heres one to end this.

The meanest shoal/school would have too be a large group of any piranha in a overpopulated/ confined space. In hot waters of 84 degrees or more. With no food for long period of time.

there it is speculate.
MAD


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Show_Me_The_Teeth said:


> Neoplasia said:
> 
> 
> > Show_Me_The_Teeth said:
> ...


 How do you know one of them is female? Errr.... I shouldnt have brought it up.









BTW, this thread is awesome.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> The meanest shoal/school would have too be a large group of any piranha in a overpopulated/ confined space. In hot waters of 84 degrees or more. With no food for long period of time.
> 
> there it is speculate.


 What's to speculate? Fishermen still go into these waters that are drying out with piranas in them to fish for them by nets. The equation you are missing is; conditioning. Richard Conniff (National Geographic) made this discovery for himself while trying to find out the very same thing you are asking as a question.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > it happened several years ago though
> 
> 
> Your information is way way way out in left field somewhere. The fish were originally being bred quite successfully before and after being sold to Bud Guyer. These were then being replaced by other pairs derived from this original pair. These are at least up to 2001 or 2 still being bred. If you are going to cite information from me, please get it right.
> ...


 2001 is several years ago

Thansk you very much


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> 2001 is several years ago
> 
> Thansk you very much


 Another good example of why information I could release to the public, I don't. Anyone interested in updated information can contact me privately. Nate, your protestations and pleading on wanting information about the peat moss measurements, etc., or any other information from me to help you in your quest to be an "expert" is going to be ignored herein. I am here to help this forum succeed in being a top notch forum, not to enhance your ego.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > 2001 is several years ago
> >
> > Thansk you very much
> 
> ...


 Another good example of why Nate has lost all credibility with myself and numerous other members.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Frank is there any documention on how they bred ie water conditions, tank requirements, and so forth.


Yes there is beyond what Bud et al., has accomplished. And that information is available only to certain people.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

my point was that you cannot expect everybody to remember every little detail in life, you guys need to cheeeel out, you act like we are performing brain surgery here


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> you act like we are performing brain surgery here


 Are you volunteering as a patient? I'm sure there are some here willing to perform what is required and certainly needed.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

damn, i thought the fighting was over.
wes


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> damn, i thought the fighting was over.


 What fight? There has to be 2 or more involved.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

hastatus said:


> These are at least up to 2001 or 2 still being bred.


Nate, since you don't read and take the time to comprehend things I've taken out the key phrase. Oh and by the way, two years is not several, it is a couple. And the sentence says UP TO which means that it was going on BEFORE. I'm sure you'll backpedal your comments on this as well, but that's half the fun now isn't it?


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Big deal so I wasnt right on the date. There is said I am wrong. What makes the difference really? None. My point is we didnt need Frank jumping down my sh!t over a year.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> My point is we didnt need Frank jumping down my sh!t over a year.


 As usual you are confused. Neoplasia brought it to everyone's attention, not I. But I do think Neo has a point which mirrors what I wrote, you do need to read everything and most certainly in need of getting your facts straight.


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## ezlife (Jan 25, 2003)

Ok, i will try to steer us back into a freindly mode again









Do we have any piraya or carbie owners here? if so, would you agree they are MORE agressive than the common red bellies.

Tell me about your expereinces with piraya and carbie. i am looking at places for them now, so if you can please post some websites that i can check back to often:

so far i have www.fishpost.com www.sharkaquarium.com any other places that i might be able to obtain baby piraya or caribe?

Lets say i decide to sell them for whatever reason, since piraya are kind of rare, will it be a "hot item" for me to sell or will i be stuck with them?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Do we have any piraya or carbie owners here? if so, would you agree they are MORE agressive than the common red bellies.


 Hard one to say because you will get hundreds if not thousands of different answers for this topic. If we diverge to the wild, then P. piraya by shear size is far more dangerous, however any school of Pygocentrus is dangerous under certain circumstances. In the aquario, you will get a distorted often embellished opinions that have little basis for anything that has to do with how they behave in the wild. From here you will see what I mean by posts that follow on this question.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

In most peoples opinion Piraya tend to be more lethal as far as fighting goes than the other pygos, many people have homicidal stories of their Piraya.

Many people will tell you Cariba are the most territorial so the fight more than the others

I agree with both opinions


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

most people here are only refering to the aquarium behavior, what happens in the wild happens there


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

> however any school of Pygocentrus is dangerous under certain circumstances.


This statement probably holds true even in the home aquarium setting. Thinking back on all the conversations I've had with people and posts I have read I cannot see there being any conclusive answer to this question. Reading back I see similar comments made also. You're looking for a concrete answer to a question that can't really be generalized that way.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> most people here are only refering to the aquarium behavior, what happens in the wild happens there


 Oh BTW, you aren't reading again. But this statement is, well I'm not even sure how to respond to it so I'll just pretend it's not there. I don't even know what it's supposed to mean.


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

Nate, 
I truely believe you are trying to piss off Frank. You go out of your way to attack his statements with childish tactics. Once you stop this board will be much better.


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## WebHostExpert (Jan 16, 2003)

I think this is going along with the "my fish is meaner then yours" or the " my fish will kill your fish". I like reading it cause it is very funny.

But I have never been afraid of any piranhas I have kept before.
Now that snakehead I had I was afraid of.
MAD


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## MPower (Jan 29, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> In most peoples opinion Piraya tend to be more lethal as far as fighting goes than the other pygos, many people have homicidal stories of their Piraya.
> 
> Many people will tell you Cariba are the most territorial so the fight more than the others
> 
> I agree with both opinions


 I had the same thing happen in my tank with 1 piraya and the rest caribe. It all depends. My friends piraya will just nip at the caribe.


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

No i don't think my piraya are any meaner than my red and cariba's.
but they do act different. For instance i believe that cariba's are territorial and will fight bigger and badder fish when in this area but when they are not they will tottaly bow out.
My piraya are what i like to call school yard bullies they have no boundries and if they have an area claimed and see the cariba's defending another area they just fight and take it.
and finally my red acts very simular to my cariba's
But these are my fish and this is what i have observed :







:


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Yeah I agree they dont fight as much, but when they do they are much more lethal about it


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Here is a link to follow that will add more to this discussion and solidify's what I and other have written on this topic. I'm sure if you searched more indepth, you will find many many more _ opinions_ of this nature.

From Predatory Fish- Most aggressive piranhas


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

hastatus said:


> I'm sure if you searched more indepth, you will find many many more _ *opinions*_ of this nature.


 Bingo









Opinion and personal experience are the factors that determine for everyone individually opinion about what species is the baddest, most agressive, most bloodthirsty and what not.

I don't think anyone can say there is one species that is _the_ most agressive one: it depends on too many factors to award one single species the "Most agressive piranha-Award": do they feel comfortable and stress-free, do they have enough room, is the water quality good, are they fed regularly etc. etc.


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