# Titus's Tank Log



## Titus

Hi, my name is Titus, I'm from Romania and I just finished my 250 liter aquarium with 3 red belly's in it, I actually bought the aquarium after the fish...but that's a long story for another time. So I have 3 red's for which are very dear to me, but after all my reading and "interneting" I found out that taking care of red's is not that easy, I bought numerous test's for water quality and (I think) all the gear I need, I will post my setup along with some pic's and I hope to receive some feedback on my setup along with criticism. I will post my questions, thoughts and concerns.

1. One of my red's has one small eye, I got him this way, does not seem affected by it, but when they fight I always take his side...hope he will be ok.
2. *Water quality concerns*: I have two sponge filters (with PVC tube extensions because they munch the air line), with air stones pumped by a big air pump with two outputs. I went today and bought a huge internal filter rated at 1000 liters per hour, it has a spray bar for aeration and an active carbon filter in it, I hope they do the job together, water is crystal clear except from all the yellow mopani wood stuff, temp is a constant 25 celsius (73 F) I dont want to bring it up because they already fight too much, now for the *tests* I have 6 in 1 strips which say that everything is ok except for NO2 which is 0.5 mg/l with PH at 7.2, I have read about ammonia and its deadly effects so I bought a test for that, it measures NH3 and NH4 combined and goes right to the maximum value at 5.0 mg/l, I used a online calculator which requested pH and temp, the calculator said that my water is ok because I dont really have free ammonia, it's more NH4 which it not so toxic (I hope).

As you can see I'm another confused guy, overwhelmed by all the information and opinions, all I want is my red's to grow old and happy, they eat like crazy (alaska frozen cod) and they really seem happy, but I want some opinions and criticism from this large community. I will post pics with my setup and little friends.

Edit: sorry for the picture quality and I forgot to say I do a weekly 25% change and I take out about 2 liters every day when i syphon the gravel for food debris and poop.

Thanks in advance for any help given and for accepting me in this awesome community. Titus.


----------



## Ægir

You seem to be on the right track, and its great that you are trying to learn. As for upgrading the tank, its worth saving up some money and doing it right vs doing what you can now.

My advice would be not to trust the test strips, as I have found them to be inaccurate. You will want a liquid test kit (something like the API Master). As for filtration in a smaller tank (65 or so gallons) it will need to be over done. I would suggest a canister filter of some type, as the sponge filters just arent going to cut it and likely part of your current problem. The Rena Filstar XP4 or something similar would be great and take care of your problems. If you can find something used, go for it.

Until then, keep up on your water changes. There is no need to gravel vac every day as work will take the fun out of things. I would do it weekly until you upgrade your filtration, and then every other week from then on. 25-40% will be fine.

DO NOT wash out your sponges with tap water, shake them out in a bucket of tank water as you are doing your water change.

If you have any more questions, just ask


----------



## Titus

Wow, thanks for the super fast reply, I have read it last night but my keyboard clapped out...I installed the internal powerhead filter close to the surface for oxygenation, it's rated at 1000 liters/hour, does move the water quite a bit so installing it lower in the tank is not a option, my little friends don't like that much current. I attached some pic's of my install, opinions? Will invest in a good canister when my budget allows. They also seem bothered by the red filter I added for the neon...will get a blue one.


----------



## Ægir

Current isnt an issue, the fish will get used to it. 1000l is 265 gallons per hour which isnt much.... my 55 gal with 4 reds has 2 600 gallon/hour powerheads, and another 1200 gallon per hour turnover through the filter... the equivalent of 10 of those.

You want as much flow as possible to keep waste suspended in the water column, especially once you get a canister. It helps to keep it from settling and decaying in the gravel, and also to exercise your fish.


----------



## Titus

Did a test just now, NO2 high...panicked, did a 35%...also I noticed a small white dot in the center of one of my red's eyes...I think I would have noticed it before but I don't remember, should I be worried? Also they do seem reluctant to eat, or are they just going through a faze? Please help...really worried right now.


----------



## Ægir

Let it ride man, the more you change the more it will stress them out. I wouldnt worry about the eating thing, as its prob from stress and they wont starve themselves to death typically.

White spot could be caused by ammonia, if it gets worse step up on your water changes.

You need to get a canister or better filtration ASAP otherwise its just going to keep getting bad.


----------



## Titus

Ok going out for a canister tomorrow, borrow some cash and be done with it, stores here don't carry the Rena brand you suggested, should i get something rated for my tank capacity or a little higher and go from there? Any water treatments? What about the canister filter media, go with what comes stock or get something in particular? adjusted the powerhead flow, they really like the flow...they just fight with it, it's very amusing.


----------



## Titus

I have two options Tetra EX800 with 790 l/h and 4 filtering media included or Eheim 2215 with 620 l/h with only a sponge and polypad included, which would you choose? Sorry for the post abusing...if there is anything I can do to help the community...


----------



## Ægir

Always go for way more than rated for your tank, as big as possible. They are rated for guppy tanks, not predatory fish. You can order cheaper from amazon or something prob if online is an option.

For media, go to a dollar store and get the plastic scrubbies WITH NO SOAP that look like this









Stack as much as you can, and place your two sponge filter sponges in the bottom of the canister... I like to soak and rinse everything briefly first, or run it in a bucket of tank water, and then put the media in.

as for water treatments, only use a dechlorinator or water treatment when you add water... should be fine.


----------



## Titus

Will do everything I can tomorrow, just hope they will hang on till I'm done, will go to the fish store to buy some *safe start* and will order a canister online, should arrive the next day, isn't there something I can do to rid the water of pollutant's faster? Really concerned about the little guy's eye, has a small white dot right in the middle, seen it online in numerous posts, everyone said it's either a scuff or ammonia, just hope he gets better, do you think he will based on previous experiences?


----------



## Ægir

You are safe to do a 40% water change tonight, as long as the temp is similar and if possible PH. Chlorine will kill any bacteria and the cycle so, if you dont have a way to remove it (and on city water, not a well) you are better off skipping the water changes until then.

Things will be fine for a few days, just do a water change in the morning, and one the next morning or something.


----------



## Titus

I'm done, finished installing the canister and did another 40% with some safe start chlorine remover, my canister is rated at 1350 liters per hour, so its cycling the water 6 times/hour, media is composed of scrubbies, ceramic rings, and zeolithe which promises ammonia and toxin removal, on top of it all a thin strip of filter floss, started the canister and instantly clouded the water up, forgot to wash the zeo-thingy...it's starting to clear up now, hope it will completely.

I have a flow problem, cannot figure out how to adjust the powerhead to "throw" all the mess in the input of the canister, I think the flow is to strong and the crud just bounces upward when reaching the intake...powerhead and intake are facing each other on the tank sides, with a slight down added to the powerhead output, canister output is a spray bar set on top of the powerhead. Will attach pic's, I'll take the last sponge-filter out and set some airstones behind those pieces of wood.

The white dot on the red's eye is the same size, will it "retract" or anything? They seem fine, active and "surfing" that flow, just hope they can relax...

If I can help anyone with dogs, cats, R.C. (cars,planes,boats), listed some of my hobbies which I am good at...I just feel indebted for all the help.

Edit: pH 8.0, temp 25C, NO2 0.5mg/l, NO3 25mg/l, CL2 0mg/l, I will test NH3+NH4 soon, waiting for the tank to clear up, but the test is for total ammonia and not for the toxic NH3.


----------



## Ægir

Just pull the airstones and air pump, that isnt helping anything and will clean up the tank

I gotta run to the DR for a physical, but will respond in a few hours!


----------



## Titus

Ok, done, thank you very much, good luck with the physical.


----------



## Ægir

I typically place things so the flow of the tank is in a clockwise or counterclockwise flow, IE intake of the canister near the bottom and spray bar at the top of one side, and the powerhead(s) in the middle directed down on the opposite. If you can keep the waste suspended eventually it will end up in the canister.

If you suspect its too much flow (which IMO its not) you can put the powerhead on a timer with your lights so it goes off at night... but be warned that stopping and starting powerheads will wear them out faster than leaving them on.

Let it roll for a few days and check back in, in a week or less your params should balance out and things will be clear.


----------



## Titus

I will take your advice and let things be, water is clear right now, the NH3+NH4 test read 1.5 to 2.0 mg/l and with the online calculator for free ammonia it gives a value on 0.0926 ppm NH3 which I read is acceptable, all the old sponges are out, air pump out, not a grain of waste on the gravel...I'm relaxed.
What about that white dot on his eye? What to expect? Still same size. Any cure?


----------



## Ægir

Just gotta wait it out a few days, if the eye spot gets bigger we can try a few things... but at this point would just be more stress so, let it roll!

Good work man, way to make a huge upgrade for your reds... nest step is a good test kit and you are set!


----------



## Titus

Couldn't have done it without your "push" my initial setup was made by a "guru" world class guppy breeder, I had doubts from the beginning, oh well, sometimes you just need a little push, can't wait for them to grow big and happy, just sad about spending cash on air pumps, hoses and sponges, just stressed my friends out changing airlines all day.

They where telling me all along about the crappy setup by biting those airlines







#fish power !


----------



## Ægir

Well, save the air pumps and sponges for when they start breeding... will work great for fry in a smaller tank down the road.

If you have a spray bar and lots of surface agitation, there will be plenty of O2 in the tank


----------



## Titus

That would be awesome...have a 80L tank around and would be perfect for that, fish for everyone







too bad they would not survive the trip to the US, maybe we'll have an option by then, who knows, I'd like to show my gratitude somehow.


----------



## Titus

Another tank update: White flaky stuff appeared on one of my tank's walls, they move with the water flow, also took out two pieces of mopani wood as they were covered up in white slime, scrubbed the flakes of the side, what the hell is going on in there?! The white dot on my red's eye is still the same size, no improvements.


----------



## Ægir

Google "planaria" and check it out... they are from excess food (rotting driftwood is also "food"), and poor water conditions (which we fixed)

Report back and let me know if thats what they look like.


----------



## Titus

No way, more like http://www.wetwebmedia.com/MicrobePIX/wholes%20open%202.jpg only smaller, took out the "infected" mopani, glass is clear since about 12 hrs, high NO2 NO3, maybe it's the cycle...what about the eye?


----------



## Ægir

Prob the cycle...

As long as the eye isnt getting worse... just gotta wait for things to balance out and see what happens


----------



## Titus

Thanks again, fingers crossed, just fed them, that cod really oils up the water, what else would you suggest for a more "clean" alternative, saw something about pellets in a previous post...


----------



## Ægir

Hikari Cichlid Gold pellets in the red bag are what I have always used.


----------



## Titus

Ok, I'll be sure to try them, fish seem ok, just waiting for "eye guy" to get better, I'll keep you posted ! Thank you !


----------



## Ægir

Amazon.com carries them... they are hard for me to find locally, had to request a Petco or Petsmart carry them an it was for a short time.

Might take up to a week of not feeding to get them to accept food off the surface. Just try a few pellets per day, and remove them after an hour or so

no prob


----------



## Titus

Just did some tests, No3: 25mg/l, NO2: 2mg/l (kinda high), NH3/NH4: 1.5mg/l => calculated NH3: 0.0864 ppm, pH: 8.0, GH: >14*d, KH: 10*d

Observations: somewhat accelerated breath, but only on 2 out of 3 fish...good appetite, water change required?

Same size white dot on eye, no improvements.

I think I have enough O2 in the water, canister output is a tank long spray bar with open end so we have small jets penetrating the entire tank length and an open end which pours water from about a half inch above the water line. Going to the bathroom again...


----------



## Ægir

Things seem to be cycling out... water change cant hurt. Out of curiosity are you on a well or city water? Have you tested the water from the tap?

Can you put a cap on the spray bar end to give the smaller jets a little more power? I would place mine about a half inch under the water facing slightly up to really agitate the surface, which seemed to carry the current better than above water. It was also less noise and didnt sound like a waterfall.


----------



## Titus

I'm on tap water, conditioning it though, no well advantages since I live in a flat, tap water is same pH and I am very careful on temp cap on the spray bar will just pop of from the pressure, tried already...do you think it's necessary? Breathing back to normal, *what do you think about params?*

Also just bought this (see pic below) should I add? I also have active carbon in...will it neutralize the solution? How much WC? Won't it ruin the cycle? Eye guy is the same.


----------



## Ægir

Activated carbon will remove most things, as for adding ammonia removers etc... its better to have higher ammonia and allow bacteria growth in the filter to accommodate it. If you use an additive, you will always have to use that additive or face a mini cycle in the future. Water changes wont hurt the cycle, as long as you dont wash out the filters and kill the bacteria. You could do a 20 or 25% every other day and be fine.

Water params are high in places but due to the cycle and bacteria catching up... not dangerous by any means.

I would consider gluing the cap on the spray bar, when you do a water change shut of the canister, dry off the spray bar and use one or two small drops of super glue... let it dry for 20 min or something and then rinse it off. Small amounts of glue wont hurt anything (I have done lots of PVC repair with primers and glue and then fired things up) and the carbon will scrub it anyways.


----------



## Titus

Ok I'm doing a 25% and will try to solve the spray bar issue, in case I dont...do you think I don't have enough aeration? Is this an ASAP issue or a "to do"? What about eye guy? Forever indebted !


----------



## Ægir

You have enough filtration for now, once the fish are full grown in a few years or so you might need more. You will know when things totally balance out, and you let the tank go one or two weeks with no water change.

My analogy that helps lots of people understand is think of waste like cheeseburgers... your fish make 5 cheeseburgers per day, and the bacteria can only eat 2 today, 3 tomorrow, 4 the day after etc... so its going to take some time before they can catch up. You also have a carry over from the day before which is causing your water to be somewhat high param wise. Once you cant fit any more bacteria in your canister media, and the fish produce more that is where you have an issue... but that wont be for some time.

Just going to take some time for the bacteria to populate, and then die off a little because of the spike (carry over)

Eye bro is just going to have to wait for the cycle to complete, as long as its not getting worse every day he is fine! I would imagine it will go away after this is all said and done.


----------



## Titus

Also this just keeps coming back for more http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/18/e3aba7uz.jpg only in much less concentration noticed it since the canister...

Awesome analogy and I plan on changing everything once they grow since I plan on moving in a year or so...huge a** tank and everything


----------



## Titus

Doing another 25%er, NO2: 5.0 mg/l, NO3: 100 mg/l. Bought a glass scrubber, lots of white slime deposits on glass. Eye guy is the same.


----------



## Ægir

Still climbing towards the peak it seems... should balance out and start dropping soon.

For a glass cleaner, you should check out the mag floats. Makes it nice to not stick your hand in the tank and can clean it when you walk by day to day

Are you still using the test strips or?


----------



## Titus

Yeah, a mag float made my 2 week old aquarium look 20...threw it in the bid, made me have a small heart attack.

NH3/NH4 and pH is measured with drop tests and vials

NO2 and NO3 is measured with strips, I ordered a combo drop test kit, should arrive next week. Still I cant seem to find a test that measures free ammonia (NH3) !








Stupid 3rd world ! Joking, we are in the EU. I'm a nationalist, sorry for the bad impression, I'm actually training to fly in the ROAF, (Romanian air force) Just got my light sport aircraft license









Also, had a bad dream, hose came of the intake tube of the canister and emptied the aquarium...what are the chances?


----------



## Ægir

I have had a mag float for my entire time in the hobby, including sand bottomed SW setups... key is to keep the inside free of debris and away from the substrate I guess.

The API master kit has everything you need if you can find one, check online!

That is awesome, I have always wanted to get my pilots license and be able to fly even though it terrifies me... I think if I was in control I would do better, kinda like riding in the car with a woman driver makes me almost puke


----------



## Titus

If you are control it's much better, took a joy ride with a glider and I didn't touch the stick, felt like puking all the time


----------



## Titus

NH3/NH4: 1.5mg/l









Just fed them, they almost take the food out of my hand, really happy right now!

Fresh out of a Cannon 1000D my gf just painted the background, hope it shows up in the pics. Looks really good in reality, water is crystal. I really can't shoot photos.

Do they have fin rot?! They fight a lot, maybe just nipping. Just want to check it with you.


----------



## Ægir

Looking good man! Glass and reflection makes pictures difficult!

Things should keep getting better....


----------



## Titus

No2 5.0 mg/l !!! when is it going to go down? Doing another 25%.


----------



## Ægir

Cycle can take 10 days to 2 weeks... hard to say man, just be patient!

Nothing good happens fast in the aquarium hobby


----------



## Titus

I just hope my 25% changes don't hurt the cycle, I just want them to be safe.


----------



## Ægir

You will be fine, you would have to wash your filter media in ice cold/scalding hot or chlorinated water to hurt the cycle at all.

You might be delaying the spike a little, but its making the transition easier on your fish so thats a plus


----------



## Titus

Ok, now I am really mad, I have this (see below) growing on everything, looks like dandruff, slimy dandruff ! #RAGE


----------



## Ægir

Move your powerhead down towards the bottom and see if the flow stops it

To be safe I would pull the driftwood and boil it a few times... Real driftwood is a pain because as it decays it becomes food for things like that.
Or just remove it completely and get a fake piece?


----------



## Titus

I can't even vacuum it off...boiled it two times already and soaked with parakill and methyl blue for two days before adding to aquarium!!!

I don't mind taking them out but they absolutely love them...they race behind them all day.









I'm gonna take them out for another boil tomorrow, *does this "dandruff" do any harm?* It's a true pain to see but if its harmless I might consider ignoring it just for their sake.

What about some algae stop treatments, we have a few in stores...?


----------



## Ægir

DO NOT use the bacteria or algae killer stuff... IT WILL kill the bacteria in your filters as well

No, its just an eye sore... unless its a fungus growing on the actual fish.


----------



## Titus

Thank God, *it's all about the pets !*

Will buy some killer, take the wood out (laugh) and soak it in a big pot with the killing stuff for two days, another two days in a clean tap water pot and I think (hope) it will get the nasty things out forever. Problem is that its growing on the suction cups too....

Worth it? BTW eye guy is the same...still waiting


----------



## Ægir

Odds are the killer wont do anything, as the wood will keep decaying and eventually sprout another bloom

you could try boiling it a few times and soaking, and if it continues just remove it... I would worry that using the bacteria killer and soaking it will just eventually leech it back into the tank when you add the wood again, prob a bad idea.


----------



## Titus

You said enough, I won't do anything, observe and probably just vacuum what I can off. Thank you.


----------



## scent troll

hey sorry ive been away from this forum for a little. looks like anything you had was already answered by Ægir









first off, VERY nice piranha! I love the tank and set up. looks like its coming along very well. glad you're on the right track and the tank looks like its coming together very nicely. 
just wanted to say hi, good luck and ill check around more to help however I can if you need it.


----------



## r1dermon

yeah man...seriously nice fish and setup. i've been off and on for a while now, but it looks like you've gotten what you need here. make sure to update with pics as your issue clears up, and also post pics periodically so we can see how your fish progresses. have a good day now. happy p keeping!


----------



## Colty

Nice setup man ...good looking rbp's....welcome to the forum...


----------



## Titus

WOW, I want to thank *everybody* for giving me all this support and encouragement and *special thanks to Ægir* for having my back in all this, very happy that you all chime in !

Bought a NO2 drop test today, problem is its 3.3 mg/l maximum value, water goes right through it







it's 5.0 according to the strips.

NH3/NH4 is 0.25 mg/l WOW!

Changed 30% and added air stones, they are very lethargic and since the airstones they stay "glued" to them...hope they don't get brown blood...

Check out the fin nipping...poor guy, he was chasing them yesterday like crazy and I actually said that he would get his







kicked => voilla







They are all very agressive, lowered temp to 24 celsius.

Eye guy is the same.


----------



## Ægir

Well, your nitrites are prob peaking out and should start dropping as the bacteria catches up. Keep on your water changes and things should start going down day by day.

As for the air stones, you could leave them or adjust the flow to splash on the surface more.... I like to keep as much stuff out of the tank, so like I said before typically place the spray bar near the top and aim it above water. Did you ever get the cap glued on?

Fin nipping and chasing is them protecting the territory... if it keeps up you might have to remove the decor (and your problematic driftwood haha) to neutralize everything. They wont protect a patch of gravel unless its a nest, and then they will just hang out in their own part of the tank for the most part.

Glad things are working out man!


----------



## Titus

Did it, problem is the splashing part, it's either splashing the neon silly or just not enough movement so went back to cascading the main jet from about 1" over the water line, I'm gonna just live with the noise...I think it's actually healthy to go that often









I feel the same about adding stuff inside...I'm gonna keep the stones till nitrites are down, they breathe normally but are either sitting lazy on the bottom like being sick or they fight like crazy. Something must be up. *Is 30% WC a day enough?*

What about "ol' White Eye"? Fish in the above picture is "Weird Eye", the third one is "Normal Eye"

They are "eating" bubbles right now


----------



## Colty

Hi budd!! Everyone would face the same problem of fin nipping its among their regular behavior to protect their territory ..They will feel feared among themselves so the behavior is common.By the way me too underwent a same cloudy eye problem, I took some advice from EGIR and actually i added a small quantity of salt after doing a 25% water change.Now everything is under control i did t add any medications,just maintained the correct water proportions.....cheers mate !!!!!!


----------



## scent troll

great news man!









the fin nipping is just the nature of having a shoal of reds. its a constant. but they are tough fish and with some basic care they always do just fine. glad everything has come together for you. again, tank and fish look amazing. your reds are really filling out. I always though these fish, whether you like piranha or not, are still some of the most vividly colored and nicer looking fresh water fish you can buy.

keep us posted on the tank.


----------



## r1dermon

fin nipping is nothing to be too concerned about. you may want to add a current or change around decor if it persists. as long as your reds are all around the same size, they should fare well with each other. fin nipping is what they do in the wild.


----------



## Titus

Are 30% WC's per day enough for the amount of NO2 present?


----------



## scent troll

I wouldn't do 30% daily. I would do 10% daily until your parameters are in line. let the water mature if you will.

then 20% weekly


----------



## Titus

I just fed them, uploaded video here 



 started filming on the "second batch" let me explain: I feed them in two stages, I cut about 10 bite sized cubes of cod and defrost them in warm water and if they still seem hungry after they finish it I cut about 5 more cubes and continue feeding, this was the last few and my gf started filming, *this it my no debris method*. I love them !

Worried about high NO2...5.0 mg/l is quite a bit...


----------



## Ægir

30% isnt going to hurt anything, you could change 99% if your new water is temp / ph matched and no chlorine present.

Bacteria is in the filter media, nothing is in the water except excess waste


----------



## Titus

Thanks ! Will keep with the 25-30% WC until I see the NO2 drop, nothing will hurt my fish









What do you think about the feeding? White eye is the same, time for salt?


----------



## r1dermon

I disagree with your assessment Aegir. There are a lot of organisms present in a healthy water column, not the least of which, as you mentioned, is waste. There's also bacteria present which is feeding on that waste. Bacteria which you cannot see, so in-essence, your water could look crystal clear, however don't be fooled, there are micro-organisms just kicking back and living life in there. Your major bacterial colonization if you will, is in your filter media, and the reason is twofold.Number 1 the surface area. Filter media has tremendous surface area when compared with the flat pieces of glass in your tank, the decor, and even the gravel. Thus it stands to reason that your filter media will hold more bacteria than those other surfaces. Now, bacteria are living, breathing organisms (inmost cases), so why do they all gravitate towards the filter? Well, the filter provides a current of water unlike anything else available in the rest of your tank. with the water comes oxygen, as well as nutrients (in the form of waste,or even algae...some bacteria will consume algae and other organisms that undergo photosynthesis. think of your water as its own living, breathing biosphere. the only reason to do water changes at all is because the amount of water available to an average sized fish such as a piranha, is grossly inadequate for sustainability. in nature, there are natural processes which consume toxins such as nitrate, as well as natural waste which your fish excretes. in an aquarium, the processes which essentially do clean up duties in nature are not present. for instance, adding plants to your aquarium can take care of nitrate build up, because plants naturally absorb nitrogen compounds.in your aquarium, nitrite is converted to nitrate by natural nitrobacter bacteria. in most aquariums however, the size of the fish just produces too much ammonia for plants and bacteria to cope with, leading to a buildup in nitrates and essentially requiring a water change. also, as waste byproducts are excreted into your aquarium and all sorts of other living things start to grow off it (remember plants absorb nitrate, so excess nitrate can also lead to algae blooms and patches of algae and other creepy moss species), the buildup will eventually lead to a stench. the breakdown of artificial things including filter media as it becomes clogged, will lead to stinky water, and that is why aquariums will simply never be sustainable without maintenance. 



So that's it in a nutshell...your aquarium water hosts a plethora of "things", both living and dead, organic, inorganic, toxic...etc...Vital nutrients that every organism in your tank needs for survival are carried through the water column and delivered to each species within the aquarium "ecosystem". That's why everything has a cause. A dirty aquarium with excess waste will lead to algae and bacteria blooms. Stirring up bacterial colonies out of the gravel on the bottom of the aquarium will result in a cloudy tank, which can also lead to an algae or bacteria bloom due to a large injection of waste into the water column. So in essence, you shouldn't need any chemicals like bacteria killers or products that claim to make your water crystal clear. If you're hell bent on clear water, use more mechanical filtration (sponges...etc...) or get a diatom filter for the polished look, and make sure you keep up on removing waste.



Happy p keeping!


----------



## Scorpa54

Titus said:


> White eye is the same, time for salt?


Not really able to see the eye in any of the pics but perhaps something to ease your mind. I had one of my lads get his lens almost bit off, it was hanging loosely over his eye and got all frosty white. Real scary and I thought he might lose his eye. After a few weeks of keeping his blind side away from the others things healed up just fine. Definitely a tough species.


----------



## Ægir

In response to R1, tired so will use some quotes



> Nitrifying bacteria are classified as obligate chemolithotrophs. They must oxidize ammonia and nitrites for their energy needs and fix inorganic carbon dioxide (CO2) to fulfill their carbon requirements. They are largely non-motile and must colonize a surface (gravel, sand, synthetic biomedia, etc.) for optimum growth. They secrete a sticky slime matrix which they use to attach themselves.


Canister filters are primarily ANEROBIC (VS a wet dry thats AEROBIC) and thus slightly slower working and higher CO2 levels... Use the Calvin cycle to calculate the conversion times and low reproduction rates.

You can change the majority of the water column and not cause harm, although you would remove a small percentage of free floating bacteria that hasnt attached. If we were talking about a saltwater aquarium (full of copepods and other things you dont see in FW) I would agree with you. But the bulk of "good" things end up in the filter media, and the majority of waste and things to remove (diatoms, algae spores, fish waste etc) are unattached / in the gravel and water column for easy removal.


----------



## Titus

Well that's a lot of info right there and will get the most out of both opinions but my main problem is my NITRITES with the I, that's why I do these changes since I don't know any other method to lower NO2, ammonia is very low but nitrites are in the 5.0 mg/l range which is quite high, and the fish do seem affected.

White eye is a fish that developed a small white dot in the center of his eye a week ago, that's when Ægir stepped in and with his guidance bought a canister and set up everything new, he still has that white dot which is still the same size, (maybe not as white?) and I was told to wait things out, that's what I'm doing









@Scorpa54: Thanks for easing my mind ! Hope it will turn out fine.


----------



## Ægir

Titus said:


> Well that's a lot of info right there and will get the most out of both opinions but my main problem is my NITRITES with the I, that's why I do these changes since *I don't know any other method to lower NO2*, ammonia is very low but nitrites are in the 5.0 mg/l range which is quite high, and the fish do seem affected.


Exactly, which is why larger water changes are necessary...

Keep up the good work.


----------



## Titus

Finished my 30% right now, moved the powerhead in a corner for better flow (I think) might need another...I don't know, there is no visible debris on the botton but if I stir it up some stuff rises...whatever.

Waiting for things to go to normal, same No2 concentration, what about White Eye should I do anything?


----------



## Colty

Keep your water parameters in a correct proportion ..If its a cloudy eye then its caused by some bacterial infection or some flukes and also due to Dietary deficiencies, such as lack of vitamin A, may contribute to poor fish eye health.The most common cause of cloudy eyes in aquarium fish seems to be poor water quality, especially when the pH drops too low.Anyway, the solution is simple. Check the pH of your aquarium.If its varied then do 30% water change.The aquarium fish will heal right up without medication.


----------



## Titus

ph is a very stable 8.0, it's not a cloudy eye, it's just a white dot which looks like it's inside the eye.


----------



## Ægir

If it isnt changing, I wouldnt worry about it at all... Could be a birth defect or 1000 other things.


----------



## Titus

Not a birth defect, I observe them very closely.


----------



## Titus

Doing a 30%, still 5.0 mg/l NO2 is this normal? Been a week...


----------



## Ægir

Yeah, just going to have to keep up on the water changes man... I would test again right after your WC and see if it dropped. If its still 5, then your test kit might be bad as you should see a 30% drop.

Things will balance out eventually, unless your tap water is high in nitrates or nitrites.


----------



## Titus

Ok I'll test both tap and tank after wc.


----------



## Titus

Tap is a perfect test minimum ( <0.3 mg/l )

Tank is a maximum 3.3 mg/l ( instantly )


----------



## Ægir

Well that's an indicator your changes and test kit are working... I would do a 50% tomorrow or another 30 later today? Just don't temperature shock the fish and you will be fine


----------



## Titus

I'm not afraid of temp difference, I'll try a 50% tomorrow and will buy a chlorine test kit to check things out, although I condition every bucket of tap water before I put it in.

Just fed them again, damn they are hungry, almost jump out of the tank !


----------



## Ægir

If you are using a dechlorinator and water treatment, no need for a chlorine test kit... kinda a waste of $ in my opinion.

I would however get a little notebook and write down the time/date and water params every time you test. Its awesome to have a log book and be able to look back and see whats going on. Its more helpful in a SW aquarium, as you have to test 10 different things, but also useful in FW


----------



## Titus

I see your point, will do !
Did a 30%, my arm is killing me, NO2 still same value, waaay over my test, NH3/NH4 = 0 mg/l...wow.
I don't understand whats up with that NO2...Fish act normal, no heavy breathing, no gasping at surface...just fighting !!

Filter has Zeolite in it...I've yet to find a bad thing about it online so I guess no worries there, am I overfeeding? Did you see the video? Opinions?

Should I add salt to ease the nitrite poisoning effect, I've read it in a couple of places, if so, how much, what type?


----------



## Colty

Aggression is due to the rise in Temperature.If u lower your temperature you could reduce the aggression.Nitrite is produced by bacteria during the breakdown of fish wastes.May be due to Overfeeding and overstocking can lead to high nitrite levels and incorrect filter maintenance .Aquarium salt would make things better ,but adding rock salt too preferred but not sure man...


----------



## Ægir

I saw the video, tank looks great and your feeding is fine portion wise. As your tank is still cycling, I would just sit tight and wait for the filter to catch up... could be another week or even 2 as every tank is different. Your 30% every other day, or as needed to keep NO2 in check is just great. Its high because (remember the cheeseburger analogy and carry over) the bacteria are working overtime to convert everything else and that is the byproduct.

As for the salt, API makes an aquarium salt but its basically sea salt. Dosing is 1tsp per 5 gals but I would never use half that. Also, salt DOES NOT evaporate so dont add it every time you top off the tank or it will accumulate.


----------



## Titus

Did another 50% still the same test result...did not find salt, can I use something I can find in a mall?


----------



## Ægir

Lets try this to narrow things down: Stop feeding for one or two days, and drop your temp to like 70F

I am just wondering if the food is contributing to this, and the lower temp will help reduce aggression.


----------



## Titus

Ok, I'll stop feeding, temp is 72, will reduce, just wonder if that zeolite in the filter isn't ruining my results. Really perplexed !

Also, can this be causing anything bad?, it's multiplying fast (not my tank, just can't get a pic of mine) =>


----------



## Ægir

I would leave the filter and media alone... Will just have to start narrowing things down one by one I guess

Fuzzy stuff isnt an issue, will eventually die off


----------



## Titus

This happened...what should I do?


----------



## Ægir

Appears to be a bite from another fish... Let it heal, not much else you can do. Some salt might help a little, but like I said go sparingly and dont use the tsp per 5 gals. ANY clean sea salt (no additives, check the ingredients) will work fine. if your LFS has saltwater aquarium salt, you could use some of that too. You can also remove all decor and territory markers in the tank to reduce fighting as I said before.

Ps are extremely tough and resilient fish, the can take alot of beating so no need to get worried about every little thing. Unless one has a huge chunk missing, or an eye bitten off it will take care of itself... and even then they will heal over time. I am a huge believer in "letting it be", because when you start adding tons of medications and such you are just screwing up the balance of other things... My rule is not to add anything you cant directly test for, and has worked great so far.


----------



## Titus

Ok, all decor is out, I observed some flaky scales right behind the gills of one or two of them, can't really determine if it's another nipping mark or that weird mold thats on the wood, the mold is even growing on the powerhead. Can it be growing on fish? It looks like a loose scale...but on both of them?

I'm sure that it's a bite, I've seen him being attacked afterwards right in the same area, attacks are random although I first thought they were teaming on him...it starts with tail wagging while behind wood...


----------



## Titus

Wood is out, they are avoiding each other but have become very skittish, they just run down the glass like they are trying to get out.


----------



## Ægir

Will happen, let them get used to it... can even turn the lights off until tomorrow morn.

The loose looking scales are prob knocked off from other bites or running into things. Give it a few days and things will work out... no need to stress yourself out


----------



## Titus

I promise you that I'm aware of my over-reacting, I'm not a moron, but I kinda do this with everything I can't control directly...I have a cat and a dog, I really love my pets and try to do the best for them even if it means staying till 3 am writing on this forum and b*tching about everything, really sorry !

They're chilled for now, bellies glow red...hate to see them mad, I think they really miss all the hiding space. But then again, wood was starting all the fights, noticed it a week ago but I forced myself to think it doesn't happen, I really liked the look of it and spent more on the wood than the canister believe it or not.

Sorry again !


----------



## Ægir

No need to apologise, thats what I am here for! Also do everything I can for my pets... but at some point ya gotta let things be or you are just creating problems lol

You can save the wood, or put it in somehow so that they cant swim behind it or make it a place to hide... If you can get it flat against the glass in the back or something that will work. I would wait a few days to minimize stress on the fish but... think about how you can fit it.


----------



## Titus

Tested for NO2 but with a twist, please read !

Had a empty bottle of Sera Toxivec which I forgot to throw, pic is above somewhere, it's labeled as a chlorine, ammo and nitrite killer, siphoned water from the tank using the bottle and used that water to do a test, guess what? *Yeah, no nitrite*

Water straight out of tank is just overkill for the test...

Ammo is 0 mg/l


----------



## Ægir

Likely there was residual stuff in the bottle... skewed result you shouldnt trust

I assume your test kits came with little glass beakers?


----------



## Titus

Yep, that's why I tested, to see if the stuff was doing anything, thinking about getting a bottle to change another 50% tomorrow, what do you think, I changed 50% today and 60% in two 6hr "shifts" yesterday...still no improvement, bottle says you can use up to 5 times the dose for severe pollution so I guess a bottle wouldn't hurt. A bottle is rated for 200L, I have about 240L.

Will get salt tomorrow, I've read on the forum that a tablespoon will treat 300gallons for nitrite, that means less that a quarter of tablespoon for me...

If you reply I'll read in the morning, 3:47 AM in Romania, right hand is killing me, back is killing me and I'm pretty sure I'm the one affected by Nitrite not the fish...

Thank you for everything !!!


----------



## Ægir

like i said, I hate additives because you are relying on them for life once you start... its better to let things naturally balance out, and once the cycle catches up you will have a way lower nitrite in the end of the process. Right now its just over producing to make up for what was in the tank.

If its still that high in a month or a few weeks (and you double check with a second test kit) I would say MAYBE... but as I said before nothing good happens fast, and quick fixes will haunt you in the long run


----------



## Titus

Fighting has NOT gone down, one of them is really aggressive in particular, got a mouth size chunk of one guy's tail...the same one that got bitten yesterday, I'm seriously thinking to put a net in to separate them.

Temp is 23 C (73 F) I can't get it lower. What causes them to behave like this? They were pretty calm before, aggression started this week. Granted, 50% WC a day would get me pretty pissed as well if I were a fish


----------



## Ægir

Water quality being better might have caused it, its not them being "pissed off"... its establishing dominance. Once each fish knows its place in the chain it should slow down

They are naturally aggressive predatory fish... not guppies. A net or a divider would just cause it to start all over again once you removed it.

Can you post a video of how they are acting?


----------



## Titus

Yeah, camera shy,they just hover like potatoes, swimming potatoes that is, I'm doing a 50% now, got some salt, *dosage advice?*

All the wood is out, they haaate it, have not turned lights on since...


----------



## Ægir

As for the salt, I would start with 1 teaspoon (not heaping, use a proper measuring spoon if you can) per 10 gallons... dissolve it in the water as you add it after your WC

They hate the wood being gone because of a natural fear of predators (also why its hard to get them to accept pellets from the surface) and they will need to realize theres nothing to be afraid of in an enclosed tank. The 5 reds I adopted came from a 30 gallon (yeah, terrible owners) and went into a 55 with pristine water and no decor... they didnt know what the hell was going on and it took almost a month for them to settle down.

After you finish the water change, would turn the lights on... they are going to have to get used to it, and sooner is better than later. Also when you are done, post your before and after test results if you would


----------



## Titus

They bit the siphoning hose...

First time ever, on my first bucket out and I am careful with this, I only sink the hose about an inch beneath the waterline to not freak them out, damn they are powerful...so yeah...aggression.

Do these bastards have natural predators?


----------



## Ægir

Yeah, think how I feel putting my entire arm in my 12" rhoms tank to clean the back glass panel... He can cover the tank end to end and back in the blink of an eye, and would take a pretty good chunk before you could flinch

I would say they thought it was food, and went for a nibble.


----------



## Ægir

Yeah, lots of predators... Caimans, Dolphins, and most large amazon fish (gar, wolf fish etc), storks and birds


----------



## Titus

Awesome...salting and changing...I can quit the gym.

Bad time to quit smoking


----------



## Titus

Test: Ammo: 0 before 0 after, NO2: maximum instantly before, after water change => maximum in 1 minute (test develops in 2 min) Can we call this progress? 
Will try a video of them when they start acting up.


----------



## Titus

Got something, it's 3 minutes, bear with it, right after the change, also *noticed a pattern *which I can't record because they stop: The bitten one swims up and down the glass like crazy and one of them attacks him, also the bitten one is much more skittish that any of the others, also they feel the need to stay almost glued to eachother


----------



## Colty

Man Great to hear ...The fin nipping is their natural way of mark their territories .As a juvenile they tends do this a lot.It will get reduced as they grow ,but not their aggressive instincts.May I know the brand and kind of salt you used.


----------



## Titus

Got a more obvious one : 




Also the bully is the only one showing teeth all the time !


----------



## Colty

The one which is bullying is dominating the tank man... Its all nothing but a territorial instincts.Try by increasing the feeding quantity or feed them 4 times a day in small quantities.


----------



## Titus

Done, first instinct when I saw it happen, got really bad after the video


----------



## Colty

Not to worry man..I have 5 rbp's ,while they are juvenile they tend to do the same thing .Even one of my rbp lost a chunk out of his body.No worry they are really a hard fish.

May the know what salt you used in your aquarium ????


----------



## Titus

Added the "cover" back to experiment, made some "bunkers" they just chill around them and if one gets attacked he takes cover and all is good.

Crazy eye is the bully...did you see his eye?







Ain't no one gonna







with him !!!

Can't seem to get all the waste suspended, should I get another powerhead? Dirt just bounces off the glass when it reaches the canister intake.

No idea about the brand, the kind ppl at the LFS gave me a little they were using for their marine tanks and other treatments, refused to buy 5 pounds when I only needed teaspoons...


----------



## Colty

I just saw your video man,but for me its tough to identify the sort of injury or disease.I thought it would be a cloudy eye but now am sure that it isn't. Actually mine got thrashed with the decors as you knew they get mad(skittish) sometimes and got injured near the mouth .But their natural ability to heal makes them a perfect fish.Can u upload some photos the most recent ones.


----------



## Colty

Oh thanks for your information. Instead of placing 3 or more filters/power heads,get the filter based on your tank size/capacity .I think you have placed two air stones,instead remove one which is placed near the mouth of the external filter and place the power filter over there or get a new one but a powerful one based on your tank capacity(important).


----------



## Ægir

Man, putting the decor in and out is a bad idea... every time you change something like that you are just starting the territory process over again.

You need to pick something and leave it for more than 2 seconds.

Will watch the videos and report back when I am done working on my truck.


----------



## Titus

I know but I noticed the bullying was not really territory related the bully chased them around the whole tank, glad to report that since the feeding and wood they mellowed out quite a bit !

Sorry for doing impulsive stuff







I still need you so don't give up on me









Posted the new decor setup on previous page, I made 3 "shelters" they use them and are pretty chill.

My big concern is that the bitten one will get picked off...


----------



## Ægir

Nipping is not attacking... Heres what I would like to see you do, and just a suggestion so take it as you will as its not my tank and understand its up to you

Remove or Place the driftwood vertically so there is no hiding spots (against the back glass or so the "branches" are towards the top of the tank) as creating caves is just going to encourage isolation and aggression any time others come near.

Keep up on your 30% changes every other day or 3 days.

Drop temp to 70, and feed minimally once per day (2 or 3 chunks per fish) or smaller portions 2x a day

Leave it alone for atleast 10 days to 2 weeks (other than whats above)

Being impulsive is just adding to the problem

Just my opinion


----------



## Titus

Will do exactly as you suggested, starting today, just some q's:

1. Quit the 50% and go for 30% ? Remember even the 50% hasn't diluted the NO2.
2. Does dive bombing from the edge of the waterline onto a sleeping fish and biting his "top side" count as fin nipping? Weird eye is crazy...remember








3. What truck do you have? (also into cars)


----------



## Colty

50% water change would do better and i think surely the weird eye is dominating the tank.Can u tell me how many times and the quantity you are feeding?.Did you removed your decors?


----------



## Ægir

Titus said:


> Will do exactly as you suggested, starting today, just some q's:
> 
> 1. Quit the 50% and go for 30% ? Remember even the 50% hasn't diluted the NO2.
> 2. Does dive bombing from the edge of the waterline onto a sleeping fish and biting his "top side" count as fin nipping? Weird eye is crazy...remember
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. What truck do you have? (also into cars)


1) Just trying to lighten the load, and keep a consistent routine for a set period of time to watch what happens. 50% wont hurt anything if its absolutely necessary (fish gasping at the surface), but at some point I would think we are slowing things down in the cycle (introducing trace amounts of something from your tap water?)

2)Yes, an actual attack would lead to mortal wounds and death and prob be 2 on 1. Odds are you will hardly ever see them actually sleeping... hard to tell with no eye lids

Another thought, is there any way you could get some established filter media from another (disease free) mature tank? If you could seed your filter, might help speed things up. Just have to transport it in water, and then place it at the bottom of your filter. Also is there a fish store that will test your water for you, would be nice to double check your test results.

3) 2013 Ram (Dodge) 3500 Megacab dually, Edge tuned 6.7L Cummins. Yesterday I put in a Painless (brand) fuse block, and switches for my train horn.


----------



## Titus

1. Yes, I would much prefer to do 30%'ers, idk about tap water, it's being conditioned with the best stuff I can find and I condition it before it goes in the tank, normal breathing, laying around the bottom pretty much all the time

2. Sleeping is what I call hanging on the bottom and not moving...

3. I was thinking either cummins or duramax, I had a feeling. We can't have those here, EU freaks out about everything above 2.5 L, but we turbocharge to get the grunt and keep things light to make it count. About a couple of day's ago I was watching train horn pranks on yt with some guys. 
And by the way "does it smoke" ?!









There's a Ram SRT V10 in my town, that thing almost jumped of the jacks when they were testing for exhaust sound...


----------



## Ægir

I am a commercial driver, so we have strict DOT restrictions on emissions and stuff...Not as bad as most states so can get away with things if you are sneaky. Right now my emission crap (EGR, DPF, DEF) are intact until I get a feel for the inspections and make friends. At that point she will get deleted and some real performance parts installed (straight pipe, EFI live tuning, bigger turbo, injectors and pump)

A well tuned diesel shouldnt smoke much, but she will blow a little coal on heavy pulls from a stop... Had 20k on a trailer the other day and still managed 14mpg, does low 20s empty.

All the emissions stuff is like running a marathon breathing your own farts... such a waste of money and #1 killer of these trucks


----------



## Titus

You'd hate it here, but still, we can avoid everything by knowing the right people, no one will pull over a ordinary looking 30 year old sedan and check it's emissions, put a stand alone in that thing and have a couple of different maps to load with different settings, if you want the sound go for a dump valve before the cat (map included) and be done with it, really pisses the inspection people when they test a car with a stock muffler and car leaves the shop dumping flames and anti-lag pop's







) Although you can't beat those pipes, looks exceptional, especially on a dually.

As for mpg, I get about 8 in my sedan









Did test's, same levels...had to pull out the heater as room temp is a constant 70, appetite has gone seriously down since the temp drop.


----------



## Titus

Weird eye strikes again, same tooth mark on the other fish, now they just avoid him...he's favorite method is dive bombing on them, did I say he is showing his teeth all the time? Sick







!!!

I'm gonna take him to the dentist...or give him as a Christmas present to my 18 lb Ragdoll cat, he's gonna love the company


----------



## Ægir

Watched your vids and spaced posting back. All seems like typical behavior to me... once they get a little older they will settle down.

Hows is everything else going?


----------



## Titus

I'm doing a 30% now, will report with tests after I finish, the guys are fine, temp is 22 C, 71 F, they don't eat much, if you saw the feeding vid you know how they literally jumped up when it was time to feed, now they just nibble and drop it and then I have to vac and disturb them even more...poor fish, hope things will get better.

Violence is down, with occasional attacks from Weird Eye...crazy bastard.


----------



## Titus

Same results, no changes.


----------



## Ægir

Somewhere you can take your water to be tested? most aquarium places can do it for you... Something is up, and would be nice to narrow out your test kit. Not sure if its expired, or you are missing a step or what.

Double check the directions, and call a few places if its an option?


----------



## Titus

No fish store does that here, I'm 100% sure my test is good because I checked it with both tap water and water drawn through the nitrite killer bottle, it's a NO2 specific test so no interference with other substances or anything, Ammo is zero since the canister, and NO2 was zero before the canister...Canister has some Zeolith rock's in it, it's a natural ammo killer, can it affect anything? Ammo dropped instantly, the day I activated the canister.

Maybe the ammo killer prevents the nitrite killer to develop ? I've read about Zeolith, no harm done in any aquarium and people use it in ponds with thousands of $ worth of fish.


----------



## Ægir

Whats a list of the media in your canister? (in order, bottom to top)


----------



## Titus

Ceramic rings => Black sponge with Zeolith rocks on top => Filter Floss bottom to top.

Should I take it apart and pull out the Zeolith?


----------



## Ægir

No, I would leave it... are all the media baskets packed full?


----------



## Titus

After some reading I came across a whole page about Zeolite and it's uses pro's and con's:

Pros: Instantly removes ammonia (which it did)
*Cons: Completely removes ammonia giving huge NO2 spikes !*

Not to be used long term because of that con, should only be used in a bag dipped in the aquarium for a day, the page said " Not for use in canister filters and especially in the startup process of the cycle ! "

"Zeolite becomes exhausted in a matter of days and then should be removed as it can dump removed ammonia in the tank" that's when I pulled the plug on the canister and *cleaned the media in tank water* with the zeolite removed and put it all back in place, took me less than 2 minutes.

The once white stuff was lime green (exhausted)

All is good, tank is a bit cloudy but it will clear up, doing some test and will report back.


----------



## Ægir

Glad you did some research man! I was going to look into it later as I have never used it

Find some cheap media like scrubbies and stuff that canister to the brim and you are good to go.


----------



## Titus

That's my impulsive good side...you should have seen me clean that canister, #surgery, did not really clean the sponges just dipped in some tank water in a bucket some gunk came out and that's pretty much it, zeolite is out and if a spike ever occurs I will use it as it's intended, it's effects are pretty clear, lost ammonia in a matter of minutes as you know, downside is that there was no ammonia for the nitrite to consume, so no cycle happening, ammo is still 0 and nitrite still high but I guess we should see results tomorrow night.

Either way, things should balance out now, do you get white fuzz on your tank glass? Is it normal to develop that often...3-4 days?


----------



## Ægir

I am impulsive also, especially about reading and learning new things... thats what got me into this hobby and taught me many of the things I know. Right now I am reading about GMO foods... which I dont care about but, have a friend who always brings up stupid stuff









Thats why I hate using additives and stuff... I typically setup my tanks from day one with overkill filtration and flow and only use bioballs, scrubbies, sponges and floss for filter media. Nothing to wear out and need replacing and any bio load is covered with that type of media and crazy turnover. Its also one thing to change or keep up on, and work takes the fun out of fish keeping. I would rather spend time enjoying it, than working on it.

I use the mag float every other day or 3 times a week as I walk by... its typically a green hair or lime green algae (likely due to my lighting spectrum)

Once your tank is mature and we get a legitimate cycle, the slime / fuzz etc will go away as they have no food


----------



## Titus

Glad to hear, I should get about 6 turnovers per hour so I think I'm good for now, stay tuned for test result's tomorrow, I guess we should see those nitrites drop.

Fish are good, White Eye is still the same, will get a good picture of him tomorrow so you can see, Weird Eye is well...crazy... dumb







maybe he is overcompensating for his small...ehem...eye. The Other Guy is great, jolly fat fish (he's the biggest)

Thinking of ways to torture Weird Eye, can't stop swearing at him...he is pure evil...

*Story:*
Did I say that I got him a week later after I bought the other two? I had a smaller tank and two was already too much, got them early because fish stores here don't bring p's this was a one time thing and after a week I went to the store for conditioner and saw him alone on the bottom of the tank with his dumb eye...felt bad and took him home, knowing that the big tank (current) was on the way, imagine my frustration now...joking, I love them all, especially that dumb eye'd





















here I go again...

Good to post stories about them, we had enough problems posted.

Just realized I've had them for more than a month now, bought them on the 3rd of November as my b-day is on the 4th, this was my gift to me


----------



## Ægir

PM sent


----------



## Titus

All test values are the same.

They will barely eat, they were literally taking it out of my hand before now they are not interested, they take a nibble and spit it out, what can be the problem?


----------



## Ægir

Might not like to food, lower temp, could be a couple things.

They wont starve themselves to death so give it a few days and make sure you remove any uneaten food pieces


----------



## Titus

Same food, they ate now, another bitten fin on the beaten up guy, vertical fin this time, bite size chunk ripped out, every bit of food is removed every time, don't worry about that







I have yet to find Hikari Cichlid Gold you suggested, can I try with *Tetra Cichlid Shrimp Sticks*? Quite expensive and I don't want to throw money on something which you can tell me isn't gonna work









Did a 50% today hoping things will dilute, no go...same results...opinions, suggestions? Wait it out?...OK

Should I keep the temp at 22 C or bump it up a little?


----------



## scent troll

from what ive read i honestly think patience is best right now. it sounds like you're doing everything right. i would honestly give it 2-3 days. they wont starve themselves to death. it takes a lot of patience and sometimes doing less is more. the mere act of messing with the tank and changing water can often result in weird behavior. from me experience when you cover all your bases and still dont have the results you want...sit back...relax...and have patience


----------



## Titus

I sit back and relax about one hour a day with them, that's actually more time than I spend with my dog, they've really grown on me and for the past few weeks they really seem happy when I come around and watch them like a creep, they're belly's get red and they too watch me for a minute then take a lap of the tank, Weird Eye shows off (crazy







) and they mind they're own business when I clean the bottom or change water, it's like they would help me if they could.

Weird Eye took a bite of air just now, I think he is just playing, no accelerated breath or anything, he usually sits on the bottom acting like a serial killer.

Covered all the basics, I think we have a Nitrite Gremlin inside...


----------



## scent troll

yeah its a weird one. im honestly out of ideas because you guys seemed to have covered all the basics. and i dont know what else it could be. which is why i digress back to doing nothing. i think all of my older well established tanks always took care of themselves. a mature bacteria bed, water and well cycled system seems to always avoid those spikes and dips. i found that messing with a tank often made it worse. and it made me want to mess with it more.

sounds like youre enjoying the tank though man. and thats awesome.


----------



## Titus

Did a 40% today, Nitrites remain unchanged, above the 3.3 that my test can read, they act normal, pretty active, nothing suspicious.

What to do about those Nitrites? Adding salt on every bucket changed, water conditioned, tank is pristine, fish the same, ammo is 0...WHAT?

Story: Got a bite yesterday when I disturbed the gravel, wasn't really a bite, just a nibble, no teeth involved, I found it very funny, they really enjoy my company, you should see them looking at me wherever I may be in the room


----------



## scent troll

im not huge on aquarium salt. I find it unnecessary. I do have it ready for use but find the only time its really beneficial is when a fish is wounded or ill and barely a table spoon is added. it promotes some healing and oxygenation

congrats on getting bit too lol
glad youre alright man


----------



## Titus

Not really a bite, just a nibble, I'm so proud of them.

I don't know what to do about those nitrites...really bugs me.


----------



## scent troll

let me do some digging around because I literally forgot what I used for nitrate issues but I know I can dig it up.
give me a while im working today


----------



## Titus

Thank you very much for any help, also noticed a lip injury, will have photos up soon.

Best I could do regarding the photos, other than this they seem fine, only thing left to do is get those nitrites down, is this injury anything to be concerned about?


----------



## scent troll

nope pretty typical injury for a red. it will heal up just fine. I actually adopted an adult red that had an entire piece of his upper mouth bitten off. healed and lived a long healthy life. these fish are literally tough as nails.


----------



## Ægir

Things are fine man, dont worry about the scratch...

As for the nitrites, just going to have to keep waiting things out... bout all you can do is let the cycle catch up


----------



## scent troll

yeah I cant recall that product I used. but for newer tanks it helps stabilize things. in any case with or without it isn't so necessary. the tank just needs to 'mature' up and it will take care of itself. 
don't get overly obsessed with trying to make it work, just give it time and keep the water/filter media clean and operating and in a matter of days...weeks at worst it will settle in.


----------



## Titus

Just got home and I think I see "burned" gills on all of them, looked for pictures on the web but did not find much, took some pics, maybe you can make something of them.

They are not gasping at the surface and I don't think they really suffer from lack of oxygen, they just eat and fight, but still, these "burned" marks were not there yesterday.


----------



## Ægir

if so, would prob be caused by ammonia... whats your reading?

Also, no way they are oxygen deprived... especially if you have those air stones in still.


----------



## Titus

False alarm, it's a heater burn, ammonia is zero !

Off to purchase a heater guard, it's a pretty obvious burn, they are all a little darker behind the gills but this guy's skin looks black and cracked.

Bought shrimp sticks, they love them, took a little getting used to go up top and grab the food but now they got it, you should see them "panic" when I feed them, the sticks are very smelly so I think they feel it the second I open the container, Noticed more poo since the new food, a LOT more. Here's a pic of the food.

Just wanted to know if that burn had anything to do with the nitrites, ammo is zero no doubts here, and upon further observation I concluded that it's a heater burn, nothing could have caused it to look like that, should I be concerned?

Right now they are searching for those shrimp sticks....so cute !

Oxygen? It's snowing air bubbles in the tank.


----------



## Colty

Hi Titus...Just watched your videos on you tube.Awesome fishes man...

Yup they love those shrimps,mine would feed on them them like a hell .They love those sticks, but a raw shrimp would bring their colors brighter since they are rich in carotene.Regarding the Heater burn he will heal up fine given a month or so he might be left with a small scar but thats about it.

Likes been said keep the water quality good... plenty of water changes,
and melafix will be fine with an open wound and will help it heal faster.

Can u post some recent photos budd!!!


----------



## Colty

The lip injury is a common factor man..not a problem it will heal quickly .Mine got thrashed in the corner glass and suffered a similar type of injury.

Just place some artificial plants in the corners of the tank.
They would chop those plants but i think you can give a try...

My fish lost a chunk out of his body but within a week or so they got healed but the scar remains....


----------



## Titus

Installed a heater guard and added this to the media in the canister and the powerhead.

New style of combat: Two fish start spinning around each other really fast and trying to bite their sides, no damage.


----------



## Ægir

Looking good man, the extra media should help out but could also screw up the cycle (reducing nitrites and starving, will create another mini cycle)... you are prob better off putting it all in the canister but, either way.

Again, not a fan of media that needs replacing vs cleaning, find some scrubbies and stuff that thing full of bio media and not stuff that "collects" or is a resin


----------



## Titus

Yeah, though about the side effects, will only use till nitrites are gone, then pull it out and monitor, enough time has passed and I don't want to stress the fish anymore.

Noticed the new food makes them poop a lot, in two hours they pooped everything they had eaten, is this normal?


----------



## Titus

Guy's...I think there's more poo than gravel in my tank...vac'ed it out as soon as it "dropped" but...MY GOD !!!

Orange poop everywhere...with the frozen cod I only noticed 3 or 4 white strip's per day which I removed with the water changes but now with the shrimp sticks they drop it very soon after eating, and a lot !


----------



## Colty

Nice looking setup...what about the filtration ??

bought a new power head????


----------



## Titus

Powerhead is older than the canister, it has a 1000 liters per hour flow rate, the canister has 1350 liters per hour and air pump with two airstones.


----------



## Colty

Great setup any way ..Can u post some more photos Buddy!!!

Hows the behavior of that big eye beast ..Is he doing good with others or the chase continues????

Nice color !!!! Great Looking Reds on them!!!


----------



## Titus

Thanks, do any of you guys know is excessive pooping is anything to worry about? Noticed it since the new food.

Nitrites are the same, changes are done 30% daily, Master Ægir opinions? This tank is alive thanks to you, don't bail on me !


----------



## scent troll

to my knowledge no. excessive pooping is no doubt directly linked to diet. as long as their behavior isn't funny or changed I wouldn't worry. just means they have efficient digestive systems


----------



## Titus

Thank you, they really enjoy the shrimp stick, you should see them splash the waterline when I feed them, they are floating pellets, kinda wish they were the sinking type.

Finished the change, their colors look amazing, aggression is down to just chasing around for ha-ha's no biting though. They are pretty mellow, temp is 22 Celsius, 71 Fahrenheit.

I think Weird Eye wants to kill me, he was chasing my hand when I cleaned the glass, no biting, just followed me around, laughed my a** off, he acted like he was planning a way to bite but just couldn't finish the task









Bought them presents, X-MAS mode activated







will decorate when I can catch a breath.


----------



## Ægir

Things are looking good man... The nitrite thing is starting to make me wonder, could be a few things.

1)its your tap water or a faulty test kit, or you are missing a decimal place?
2)for some reason the cycle is still in high gear and processing extra nitrites, or over feeding 
3)something in the tank is leeching them (driftwood)

have to narrow things down one by one, I would test your tap water and write it down. Put a piece of driftwood in the bucket of tap water you measured, and check it tomorrow and the day after... that will eliminate some options


----------



## scent troll

totally unrelated but what are those potted plants on top of the tank? they look like bonsai trees almost. 
very neat looking tank. very well done.


----------



## Titus

It's their present, 3 mini Christmas Trees for 3 mini Red's, I said that I bought them a present in the previous post.

I test with two different tests, strips and drop test, tests have both been checked for errors with conditioned and unconditioned tap water, all read fine with zero NO2.

I have some driftwood left to soak will test and post result right now. Stay tuned.

Done: ZERO nitrites and nitrates ! Two pieces soaked in a bucked for I'd say 4 weeks now, not planning on putting them back in, I just forgot about them...ZERO!

Something is up...

Nitrites have gone up since the canister, they were always 0 before but I had lots of ammonia with the old setup, Zeolite was killing the ammonia when I installed the canister but we got that out too...Clearmax obviously doesn't work since there's no noticeable drop...maybe more time? Diet has changed, maybe it was the Pollock...


----------



## Titus

Did a brainstorm:

1. I change 30% or more daily treating the water with Tetra Aqua Safe and grains of salt, what if the conditioner I use doesn't effectively remove the chlorine? But that would result an ammonia spike as well...or would it?

2. Fish rarely breathe, so I don't think they are affected, although they should feel/act differently, they stay mid to bottom tank...they only breathe fast when they chase each other which I guess is normal, sometimes they yawn...

3. Their colors are awesome, I've yet to see P's that look like that, but then again, mine look just as bad in pictures.

4. Ammonia is zero...so the bio filtration is doing it's job...

5. Remember that Nitrite killer we've talked about? Do you think it's time to use it?

6. LFS has Tetra Safe Start which they sell as beneficial colonies of bacteria made for aquarium starts, it costs a s*it load of $ but if it can help I will gladly buy it...

7. Aren't the changes killing the cycle? Ammo is zero and NitrAtes are 50 mg/l which is quite low...but aren't the changes keeping them alive...no symptoms of nitrite poisoning, do you think it would be safe to skip a day's change?

8. Remember nitrites have only gone up since the canister, something just keeps adding more 'ites in the tank, water is changed completely in 3 days with the daily changes...


----------



## Titus

Filled the bucket I use for my changes with tap water, left the spare canister hose which I use to siphon water in/out in the bucket, and treated it with the conditioner and added a grain of salt, tested and all is good, I'll leave it and test again after 24 hours.


----------



## Titus

Neon is dimmed with blue tape, but I did cover the neon with plastic food wrap to prevent water touching the tape just in case it could leak anything back in the tank...but it's been this way since the new tank and I've never had nitrites before the canister...same setup except that canister.


----------



## Ægir

Titus said:


> Did a brainstorm:
> 
> 1. I change 30% or more daily treating the water with Tetra Aqua Safe and grains of salt, what if the conditioner I use doesn't effectively remove the chlorine? But that would result an ammonia spike as well...or would it?
> 
> 2. Fish rarely breathe, so I don't think they are affected, although they should feel/act differently, they stay mid to bottom tank...they only breathe fast when they chase each other which I guess is normal, sometimes they yawn...
> 
> 3. Their colors are awesome, I've yet to see P's that look like that, but then again, mine look just as bad in pictures.
> 
> 4. Ammonia is zero...so the bio filtration is doing it's job...
> 
> 5. Remember that Nitrite killer we've talked about? Do you think it's time to use it?
> 
> 6. LFS has Tetra Safe Start which they sell as beneficial colonies of bacteria made for aquarium starts, it costs a s*it load of $ but if it can help I will gladly buy it...
> 
> 7. Aren't the changes killing the cycle? Ammo is zero and NitrAtes are 50 mg/l which is quite low...but aren't the changes keeping them alive...no symptoms of nitrite poisoning, do you think it would be safe to skip a day's change?
> 
> 8. Remember nitrites have only gone up since the canister, something just keeps adding more 'ites in the tank, water is changed completely in 3 days with the daily changes...


If chlorine was killing the bacteria you would see ammonia and nitrates, not nitrites

No, do not use the nitrite killer it will only be a setback at this point... STAY AWAY FROM TEMPORARY FIXES and get to the source

Safe satart and bottled bacteria is a joke, it needs to be refrigerated and also requires a food source for the bacteria to live = short shelf life and mostly gimmick. An established filter pad is the best bet if the aquarium it comes from is disease free (easy to inspect the fish, and find a more mature tank, the dirtier the media the better!)

Its possible the hoses or plastic from the canister could be leeching, but that would be phosphates so...

Stuff the canister full of media like scrubbies or ceramic rings, its possible that now your newest media is converting nitrates or ammonia to nitrites and making it worse?

Yeah, skip a few days water changes and keep using the test kit.

I will do some reading after dinner and see what I come up with.

Also, if you are seeing more fish waste, that is also fueling the problem... overfeeding can be a huge cause


----------



## Titus

I don't think that the new media has anything to do with it.

Something in that canister is giving us those high readings, I think we can safely narrow it down to the canister, since 'ites were zero before, changing the media would ruin the cycle again.

Will skip tomorrow's change and report with the results, will also test the bucket, done some reading myself using basic google searches, just found the usual results...but it's safe to say we went through that well and true. Hope you dig something up.

Somewhere in there is a nitrite factory, you are right, medicine will not suffice, we need to get to the source, I'm sure that source is somewhere in the canister...I'm sure !

Waste comes out as soon as I see it, doing my best on that. Extra poo only appeared with the new food, and by extra I mean 4 gravel vacs a day...will stop feeding for a day.


----------



## Ægir

Skip all gravel vacs and water changes for the next 4 or 5 days, and feed sparingly (one or two sticks per fish per day)

If you are gravel vacing and doing that much stuff, thats likely the cause.

I am guessing over maintainence and inability to get a proper cycle is the issue. To give you an idea, I gravel vac my tank once MAYBE twice a month.


----------



## Titus

Noted, will do two tests per day just to monitor for any weird stuff and do exactly as you said. If you dig up anything else let me know, will post results as I test.


----------



## Ægir

Sounds good... keep in mind when I say water changes, I am referring to siphoning off the top and not vacuuming the gravel... My fault for not specifying

Also note that as Central said, the tank is a living bio-type that has to develop. Waste deteriorates and becomes bacteria food, and these things take time to mature. When you start removing things from the beginning of the process, it can get screwy

Give it another week, feel free to WC 10% or 20% every 2 or 3 days (off the top) and let things settle in.


----------



## Titus

My only concern is the actual poo that sits in top of the gravel, it's a lot, I don't need to stir up the gravel, I can just pick it up with a little hose, I wont do anything till you reply in case that poo is doing anything good, bare in mind it is a lot ! I might have been overfeeding slightly...


----------



## Ægir

Leave the poops, they are what breaks down and make the process possible... they will get removed with gravel vacs every other week or whatever. If there is tons of it, then you are surely over feeding

stick to once a day, or two small per day feedings... again my reds prob get food 4 times a week so, you arent going to kill them. If the temp is still 70, their metabolism will also be slower, if the temp was 82 you would have to feed way more frequently.


----------



## Colty

Poo is not to be worried ...just reduce the amount of feeding ..else feed once a day ..

Carry this for few days and check for the result...

Can u post some pics budd!!!!!!


----------



## Titus

Ok, I will do as you say, tank looks awesome. Temp is 72, can't get it lower for the life of me !

Tests: *-Strips*: NO3- 100
NO2- 4.0 (think it dropped)
GH- >14'd
KH- 6'd
*-Drops*: Ph- 8.0
NH3/NH4- 0
NO2- above 3.3 (max level)

Two of them swim mid to top tank but no accelerated breathing or gasping, are we ok there? Safe to skip today's change?

*If for whatever reason any of you don't log in tomorrow, me, my girl and my fish want to wish you a very Merry Christmas !*


----------



## Colty

may be they are looking for food man... they must have got used to feed around tat time...
nothing to worry buddy!!!!

advance merry Christmas buddy!!!!!!


----------



## Ægir

Merry Christmas to you too!

My brother just sent me this pic... he is watching my tanks while I am gone. THIS is what an attack looks like, your fish are just playing


----------



## scent troll




----------



## Titus

Oh God...sorry man ! Sorry for your loss.


----------



## Ægir

All good and happens with these fish occasionally...

Still have 3 that are healthy as can be, even though I started with 5.


----------



## Titus

When you have the time maybe you will share what happened to the other one...really sorry, that was an awesome looking fish.


----------



## Ægir

I had to euthanize him because of another attack, he lost an eye and had a few good bites. With only one eye was struggling to eat, so I put him in a ziploc of vodka and clove oil and placed it in the freezer. Felt it was best vs letting him suffer and eventually ending up like this one.

This one was prob just a victim of the last 3 ganging up, even though I have no decor or territories. As I said it can happen from time to time.


----------



## Titus

Gruesome, and yes, I would have done the same, put him out of his misery. Hard but wise choice.

Should I do a small water change? Params are the same, nothing changed, 2 fish swim mid to top tank but no gasping or heavy breathing.


----------



## Ægir

Leave it for a few more days man


----------



## Titus

OK thanks for everything man.

I had a thought, when I will move to a house I'd like a bigger home for my red's, that said I'll have a spare aquarium (this one) empty, with that in mind you said that you have a huge rhom, I've seen pictures and always though about getting one of those, don't really know the type as I've seen many pictures of rhom's looking a bunch of different ways. I'd like single fish in this tank when I move the guys, so one day I can write about his 18th birthday (I hope) like a post someone put up here recently.

Always wanted a solitary pet that hates everything...


----------



## Ægir

Rhoms are not that interesting and lots of people hate having a huge tank for a solo fish... your best bet would be an Elongatus as they are typically the most active and aggressive.

Right now my rhom is in a 120gal, and lots of people would have a hard time designating that for one fish


----------



## Titus

That's not an issue with me, I almost bought a single red but felt bad for him to be isolated from his bro's, actually that's why I bought the 3'rd, only got two at first but a trip to the fish store a week later made me feel like crap for letting the little guy alone (Weird Eye) left him out because of his eye, now he is my bro !

Nothing wrong with a single fish, I treat the tank like a corner of nature in my home, gave the old tank to my mom and put some guppy's, zebras and other fish like that, tank looks awesome, lots of color and movement but the fish don't make me feel anything, I like them...that's it. On the other hand I feel a bond with my P's, they got names and everything. I actually imagined a mature rhom in this tank and I think it's not big enough, I honestly feel bad for the P's, held captive in 55 or so gallons of water...

I want a single fish in a huge tank, nothing wrong with that imo and I think yours too.

I like their aggressive nature but it's not a must, I just like the look of a huge black piranha, as I like the look of 3 little psycho red's


----------



## Titus

Ok guys, it's been a few days so I'll give you the rundown of how things went, nitrite levels stayed the same throughout the period until yesterday when they have gone above the 5.0 mg/l mark, that's when I did a 30% wc because I actually noticed the fish starting to stay near the waterline, things dropped below 5.0mg/l after the change and they are still below today, fish are very calm and they eat well.

Still the nitrites haven't dropped to acceptable levels, is there anything we can do? Also no more fighting at all !

Where is the deficit? I guess if we wouldn't have enough bio filtration ammonia would start showing up, but it doesn't, its 0.


----------



## Ægir

Here is a good article to read:

CLICKY

Pay attention to the chart mid way down... really puts things in perspective. Also, I would still try to find some established bacteria and pack your canister with more media.


----------



## Titus

Nitrites have been up for more than two weeks, canister is packed to the brim, ceramics=>black sponge=>clearmax=>floss, bottom to top, I'm thinking massive water changes, I'll be out for about an hour, let me know what you think and I'll make a decision when I'm back, I'm gonna visit the fish store see if they'll give me a used sponge or smt.


----------



## Ægir

Yeah, I would add the filter media if you can get some... do a 50% WC and make sure temp is back up before you put it in the canister.


----------



## Titus

I'm back, no luck on established media, bought some scrubbies, I'm gonna do a 50% should I put the scrubbis in now?

Thinking of doing another 50% one hour later after the first one.

PM'd you with something I read today, it's an identical case.


----------



## Ægir

Wash the scrubbies and let em soak a little and then put em in... I would use a bucket so you can see if theres any soap or stuff on em

50% now, wait until later today or tomorrow for the second

Will read and report back


----------



## Titus

Did the change, NO2 dropped from 5.0 to 2.0, bought a better conditioner and doubled the dose per bucket, when you read that you will understand why I am inclined to do another 50% in a couple of hours.


----------



## Ægir

Read the article, saying exactly what we suspected, no cycle... glad you got a better conditioner as that is one thing I spaced out

Water changes one after the other become less useful, as you are changing a percentage of the water you just put back in. I prefer to do it in one swoop as they are more effective. In theory you will still dilute the 2.0mg/l, but one 75% change would have done the same thing.

You would have better results doing another 50% tomorrow, but that is up to you. 2.0 is still high, but not outrageous.


----------



## Titus

Kinda think they are multiplying, what if there is nothing left to multiply...with sufficient changes. 
They really freaked out with the 50% change, maybe it was a little more, they only had double their height to swim in...
You have a good theory with the back to back changes, you are right, but what if tomorrow no2 will be back to 5.0 and with a change will go down to 2.0 again...


----------



## Ægir

Well, if its at 5 tomorrow you are just holding it down until things balance out... with minimal stress on the fish compared to having to do 2 50%s and it likely being back to 5 tomorrow anyways. Have to see how things go


----------



## Titus

Still at 2.0 according to the strips, maybe even below that, the drop test is crap, color pallet is the same from 1.8 to 3.3 so you can't really read sh*t. These JBL strip tests have really worked for me, also they helped me find the better conditioner, as they measure chlorine and with the old conditioner I always had a little after the change and with the new one not a trace.

I will do another change tomorrow as you suggested but earlier in the day.


----------



## Ægir

Test strips are incredibly inaccurate and also eventually go bad (expire) giving you false results... Dont bet all your money on them

Keep up the good work man


----------



## Titus

Finished the 50% aaaaaand.....SUCCESS!

Strips: -0.5 mg/l

Drops: -0.3 mg/l

Yeah baby !!!!! We did it !

Of to get drunk, see you in a couple of hours !


----------



## Colty

Great to hear budd!!!Great work!!!Keep rocking!!!Posts some recent pics dude!!.
















Can u let me know what shrimp food you r feeding your rbp's .....


----------



## Titus

I posted a pic of it a couple of pages back, its Tetra Cichlid Shrimp Sticks, google it.


----------



## Colty

thanx dude....sure I will check it out...


----------



## Ægir

Get some fresh shrimp and avoid the preservatives... You can buy em in bulk for less and keep them in the freezer.


----------



## Colty

Ya...The raw shrimps would do better than dried one...they tend to glow up the colors and more than that they are free from preservatives...

But whether to feed them with the shell or better to remove them ...
Some says with the shells they r rich in carotene as Shells contain those a lot..

But am afraid whether they would damage the throat of fish ..

As we know about their feeding frenzy if 3 or more..

So is that ok to feed a whole shrimp with the shells on..


----------



## Titus

Did a 50% yesterday because no2 level was 2.0 again, brought it down to 0.5.

Tested just now level is back to 2.0, should I do another change?


----------



## Colty

Don't do a frequent change it may affect your fish...

Do a weekly changes ....That would be better..

Since the sudden temperature shift would cause a damage..

So be sure the aquarium water temp and the tap/RO water temp you are adding remains the same or constant ...


----------



## Ægir

I would wait a few days and see if it gets higher...

Nothing is dangerous at this point so let it be


----------



## Titus

OK, thanks.


----------



## Titus

Still at 2.0, glad it didn't go up.

How are your guys Ægir? Do you think that was a gang attack on that poor guy? Share some behavior patterns if any when you have the time.

Anything else you would do if you had my tank? They have established some territories, not wood related as it's near the glass but if any of them goes in the others "zone" he gets chased away, weirdly if I stay near them they all swim together and follow me.

Also this white slime on the glass keeps coming back every 6-7 days after a clean do you guys have it too?


----------



## Ægir

Well if its still at 2.0, that means things are near the end of the cycle... you can do 20% every other day or something. No need to stress the fish with big changes if things arent climbing.

Definitely a mob attack... as for behavior, when one attacks the others join in. Not sure if its food mentality or they just want to show dominance and not become the next target. Every group is different, and the more fish you have, the more stable things seem to be IE a group of 10 is less likely to kill another vs a group of 2 or 3.

The slime is prob a bacteria or algae, once the tank matures there will be no more food for it and it will go away.


----------



## Titus

Level was above 2.0 today, maybe 3.0 so I did a change, also narrowed down the violence to food:

Once the first pellet dropped they started fighting for it and the one that ate got beaten up afterwards, I try to make sure everyone gets at least one but I still think they are underfed, when they see me they go near the top and start searching, these shrimp sticks make them poo a lot so I followed your advice and only feed them max 2-3 per fish but it doesn't seem enough and usually the fish that goes for the top (even if I dont feed) gets beaten up, I'll feed some more cod as that doesn't make them poop as much.

For new years I will give them a huge piece of cod and film the carnage. Stay tuned


----------



## Ægir

Try and find the Hikari Cichlid Gold pellets in the red bag... they have never contaminated my water or acted like a laxative. I drop in 15-20 at once, they float, and its not a fight for each piece of food.

or just get raw shrimp... either would be way better for your fish and the tank in general.


----------



## Titus

I really searched everywhere and phoned a bunch of shops from all around the country to no luck, fed them a large piece of cod, they ate it but were a bit hesitant, the shrimp sticks are more flavored for sure but I guess a varied diet is good and I can feed much more cod because it doesn't make them empty their bowels instantly like the shrimp, will buy frozen shrimp and add more diversity to their diet.

And by the way,* Happy new year* ! All the best wishes to everyone !


----------



## Ægir

Might have to order the pellets online... my LFS stopped carrying them and thats my only option as well.

Worth it

Happy New Year man, hope its a good one.


----------



## Titus

Will do man.

Things started climbing again, will do changes to keep them safe but not over-do it as you suggested.

Is it normal to take this long? Don't want to chase my tail over and over, if it's normal, good, if not...


----------



## Colty

Hi Budd!! Happy New Year sorry for the late wishes...I hope everything is going good over there..









Hows your tank and your fish?


----------



## Ægir

Its hard to say what "normal" is... as all tanks are different. When was the last time you did a gravel vac?

I am guessing over feeding / the food is the issue to be honest. Lots of frozen / freeze dried foods can be high in nitrates / nitrites. Would like to see you try a large Cichlid pellet and cut down on feedings but thats just my opinion.


----------



## Titus

Gravel vac was about one week ago, but with the changes, I like to vac for visible waste, as in stirring up the gravel about a week ago, I'm actually under-feeding, and no food waste gets left behind because I feed floating pellets and they just swallow them whole.

Why would a huge company like Tetra make bad cichlid pellets that mess up your water and give your fish diarrhea?

They are so hungry they want to eat rocks, I swear !!! When they see me they chomp their mouths and splash the water.


----------



## Ægir

Over feeding doesnt necessarily mean food left behind, its just feeding unnecessarily large portions resulting in over pooping and waste creation. Its possible to feed to the point of obesity, and a few members have had reds that are almost as wide as they are long









Its not that tetra makes bad food, its that they have to use preservatives which equal bad things for your water. Another thing that sucks about freeze dried foods is they are mostly air puffs and not much mass.

Get yourself a few bags of THESE and never look back.


----------



## Titus

Will sure do and post a pic proof!

Just finished some maintenance:

1.Cleaned sponges in the powerhead, added more media(floss).
2.Cleaned canister, added more media (scrubbies) it's packed now.
3.Cleaned gravel (hardcore'er) 
4.50% change.

Fish are a little pissed...but fine.

Filter media order bottom to top:
-Powerhead: black sponge=>floss=>clearmax
-Canister: scrubbies=>ceramics=>black sponge=>clearmax=>floss.

As you can see, lot's of room for bacteria to build on...


----------



## Ægir

Good, now let it get dirty and saturated with bacteria food... in a month or so you can consider MAYBE cleaning it again if the flow is reduced

Gravel vac every other week

if you have to do water changes to lower nitrites, siphon off the top and let the waste go to the canister and gravel


----------



## Titus

Will do. Some pics:


----------



## Titus

Had a thought, what about those guys that feed rats and mice to 10 reds in a 50gal tank? How on earth do those fish survive?

I also thought about putting one of those Robofish in the tank for when they are bored...should be funny to watch but then again I don't like the idea of them biting plastic, just a thought, won't do it.


----------



## Ægir

feeding mice and rats = total mess and tons of clean up time for you

that and huge filtration like a sump etc


----------



## scent troll

I wouldn't feed mice/rats at all to any fish. but to do so in a relatively small tank? the mess is unreal. we had some old videos years back (they may still be around here) of people doing just that and my lord its a mess. just fur and meat everywhere. especially in a shoal the piranha just destroy a meal like that. 
not to mention its not exactly the most humane death for the rodent. not that im a tree hugger but even I have limits on what I find acceptable


----------



## Titus

Would never do it either but if you read carefully I was wondering how do those guys filter their water and how long do those poor p's survive.

Hope you didn't think I was going to do that !!!


----------



## Ægir

In my red / rhom tanks you could prob let an entire small animal decay and not have problems... it all comes down to filtration capacity and turnover. With a sump that holds 5-10 times the filter media of your canister, an has 20 or more times the flow and turnover, things can easily be broken down and consumed.

Totally a terrible idea to do something like that... but its piece of mind to know if something happened (like the fish that was attacked, if it wasnt immediately removed) it would be able to handle it without catastrophic failure


----------



## Titus

Again, *I hope you don't think I would do that*, I have problems killing spiders thinking that they are innocent, just wanted to know how those fish survive...I'd never put a helpless animal with these crazy bastards.

About the sump, when I move and get a big tank I will probably need your advice on building one. Fish are getting bigger









This hobby really got me hooked ! I'm so freakin' attached to them. I will make a morning video for you to see that they are happy to see me when I wake up. They follow me around the tank and stare at me


----------



## scent troll

oh no I was just saying neither would I!

lets face it...people like us aren't the norm in this hobby. most people see a fish they like and buy it...regardless if they have the proper housing and knowledge to care for it. I worked in a petshop when I was a kid for years. people constantly bought Oscars, pacus, and other soon to be large fish for their kids bedroom tanks. I refused customers fish so much that I ended up quitting because all the store manager wanted to do was sell...all I wanted to do was educate. "although its small now and will fit, this pacu will grow 24+ inches!!! definitely not going to fit in your 10 gallon tank"

it was awful. and I was often pressured into just giving away fish to customers that probably met a bad end.


----------



## Titus

That's a sad story, but I'm kinda happy that you don't live in a country where corruption and greed is at it's biggest, I guess a fish store here would sell a dead fish on the premise that its sleeping...I promise you! But it's gone down in the past years and we're doing our best to make it a better place.

Did some tests, ammo zero, nitrites 2.0, no changes, cant wait to have an established tank...oh the dreams!

And Ægir, I just read you SW thread, sorry for the stupid questions and problems,but for me they are kinda big, I really appreciate that you are willing to help dumb noobs. Amazing builds !

I guess you guys are sick of "Help my fish are dying" threads.


----------



## Ægir

No problem man, and thanks for reading through the build threads!

Not sick of it at all, its why we are here for the most part. Sometimes the information is already here and a search away if we dont get to answering the questions as fast as some people need.


----------



## Titus

Story time:

Attempted a feeding, started with 2 pellets, Weird Eye got them both, fed 2 more, Weird Eye again...at which point he got rammed by another guy and they started a fight which got the water splashing at the surface and decor falling, never seen them so angry, now they all hover at the bottom behind the wood close to each other, like they are trying to defend from something, my presence always gets them happy and swimming about, now it's like they fear me.

Weird Eye ate everything and when I tried feeding another pellet they didn't even lift their heads up to see it, they are really spooked.

I can't really control which fish eats and I end up overfeeding one and the others are left mad and hungry.

This food has a very negative effect on them, they are constantly hungry, s*it too much and fight like cannibals...will go tomorrow and get some frozen shrimp. Waiting for a fish store to reply about Hikari.


----------



## Ægir

When I feed, I dont do it one by one... I drop in 15-20 pellets, 4 or 5 per fish and let them all have a go at it


----------



## Titus

Thanks, it worked, fed 10 pellets, all of them ate almost equal amounts, no fighting.

Noticed that light pisses one of them off, it's the guy with the white dot on his eye, he goes berserk on the others when the light stays on for two long (5 minutes) oh well...doesn't bother me, I can still see them, I only turn on the lights for observing them in detail and feeding, kinda like the "stealth look"

Nitrites still at 2.0 maybe less and haven't done any change yesterday so I guess that's good.

Weird eye got bitten hard yesterday over the food issue, the bitten part has gotten a little white, its right before his vertical fin, anything to worry about?


----------



## Ægir

Tough crap if they dont like the light... put it on a timer and set it & forget it.

As for the bite, as long as it doesnt look like the picture I posted... you are fine!


----------



## Titus

Ok, done, looks nothing like the pic you posted...sorry for laughing while writing this, but that was kinda half a fish, again sorry for laughing, feeling bad now.

Did a 25% BECAUSE you should see them swim and "eat" in the current from the hose when I put fresh water in, they are extremely cute and BECAUSE I wasn't able to read the drop test anymore, from 1.8 to 3.3 chart looks the same. I'm a man and are only able to distinguish about 5 colors.

Also me and my gf wanted to compliment you on the beautiful houses you build, we plan to move to the US when we retire, I'll be sure to contact you.

Dream house:I dont know how to embed so posted your link. Hope it has a man cave in the basement!


----------



## Ægir

Thanks man, That was number 6 of 7 we have done. (edited your post because I am not sure how the new owners would feel hahaha) and it had an awesome in-wall tank in the basement. Somewhere in the Saltwater discussion is a thread titled "Hole in the wall" that covers the build.

Not sure if we will build any more homes, I recently had a career change.. but still do construction projects for myself time to time


----------



## Titus

Glad you did, thought about that after I posted, will check out the "hole in the wall" post. Too bad you don't do it anymore, hope the change was for the best !


----------



## Ægir

I would definitely love to build a place for myself, but that will likely be years off. Construction was fun for the 15 years I was in it, but beats you up and isnt consistent cash flow at times.


----------



## Colty

Hi budd!!..Nice click..

Feeding rat/mice would create lot of mess in the tank....

As an expert who knows and cares about piranhas won't do this..

Some individuals would suggest these food for feeding frenzy...

About your feeding ...first feed them with small quantity ..as there will be a lead in the pack ... have more and the rest would be shared between others..
In order to avoid this feed with small quantities (say 20 pellets)(divide them and feed 2 times) so that all could share ...









Anyways Nice looking fish man...I could see your fishes are vibrant than before..I think its because of food...


----------



## Titus

@Colty, thanks for the opinions, have started feeding in bulk and all is good now.

@Ægir, bittersweet read man but enjoyed it nonetheless. Hard to make choices but I'm guessing you made the right one. I also have lots of "stupid" hobbies, glad she's aboard. Good to know the bowfront lives on.


----------



## Ægir

Yeah, the bowfront became a project I could have never imagined.... or financially pulled off :lmoa:

Was a kick ass experience to get to tackle it on someones budget, and it still is running strong today


----------



## Titus

I can only imagine









BTW, what can I do to further improve my setup? Have some leftover holiday budget, I'd like to provide a good current to make sure all waste goes in the canister but that would bash the gravel around too much. Kinda need something to work on and think about, ideas?

#Pimp my tank.


----------



## Ægir

Maxijet 1200 powerheads are the most affordable / best for the $$ or the Hydor Koralia. I like the MJ1200s because if you need more flow you can get the ECOMOD impellers for them and they really move some water.

I like to keep my tanks to a minimum, and have as little clutter so typically opt for one big powerhead vs lots of small ones


----------



## Titus

Noticed a difference with the fish, 2 of them are much darker in color than the other, noticed it a week ago but didn't post because they change color and shades in a matter of minutes, but for a whole week two of them were darker, the other is much more silvery. Belly's are the same shade of red but on the top part especially, two of them are almost black.

Can we guess they gender? I've read somewhere that the females are darker. Will try to catch it in pics.

Also the black guys/girls are the most active/dominant. Silver just lurks around the bottom and gets beaten up.


----------



## Titus

About the Hydor, my options are:

-Koralia Nano 1600, 1000 lph
-Koralia Evo 3200, 4400, 5600, but I think these would tear my tank and fish apart.

Kinda like the nano but I already have a 1000 lph powerhead with media in it.


----------



## Ægir

They are sexually dimorphic, so there is no way to tell unless you see one laying eggs or they breed and then you would know which ones are a pair.

I would get the 3200 or the 4400 if it were my tank... Prob the 3200 and put it on a timer with the lights, and leave your current one on full time. Combined flow in my 55 gal red tank I have about 7500-8000 L/H (2 maxijets, and the sump return) so with your canister / current powerhead and figure out what it would take.

You need the flow to keep waste suspended, and are really underestimating what it takes... plus it will make your maintenance easier, and exercise your fish


----------



## Titus

Agreed and will do, I just want to let the tank cycle, maybe the media in the powerhead will help, once it's done I'll get the hydor.


----------



## Ægir

Leave the other powerhead... 2 is better than one and only going to help waste make its way into the canister

In the future, remove the smaller one and stuff the media in the canister trays (or do that now if you dont want 2)


----------



## Titus

I hate having exposed wires (in the water), after I saw what they did to those air lines, I don't want to take any chances, what if one of them decides it's a good idea to bite the power line? Bye bye fish...

The powerhead sits on the bottom of the tank, thinking of isolating the wire somehow, clear pvc tubing maybe but will look like crap.


----------



## Ægir

Put the other powerhead near the top so no (or a small amount) of cord is exposed... they will NEVER swim on their side against the surface of the water. The koralias have a good adjustment so you can point it wherever you need be.

I have also never had a fish chew a cord... and it prob wont kill them, as they are isolated in a glass box and I would imagine a breaker (to be honest all tanks should be on a GCFI outlet or surge protector anyways) would trip

Yeah, its possible something bad could happen, but it would be to you when you put your arm in the tank and created a path to ground.


----------



## Titus

Not thinking about the new one right now as its position will be engineered accordingly, thinking and worrying about this one which I need on the bottom for waste collection, hope you are right and nothing will go wrong, but for peace of mind I'll put a carbon fiber tube on the wire.


----------



## Ægir

Add the bigger one and move the other one up... or take the old one out

You will only be benefiting by adding a bigger powerhead and creating flow, and the media in the other one will do the same thing... if not more in the canister (aerobic digestion)


----------



## Titus

Noted !

Nitrites at 2.0 with no big changes in the past days...having a beer then off to bed, it's 3:40 am here.


----------



## Titus

Did a 25% today as nitrites were above 2.0

They are starting to piss me off, why the hell do they need to fight as much, all of them have nipped fins and some form of damage, I arrived home just now, turned on the light to see them and immediately they started fighting and one of them has almost his entire vertical fin missing.

So sick of their stupid fighting and having fish that look like they came out of a cat. How to stop this?


----------



## Ægir

You will never stop it, but it will slow down as they mature...

Occupy them with a blasting powerhead?


----------



## Titus

Yeah, that's gonna be the solution.

WTF?! Tiny white worm things on my tank lid...microscopic


----------



## Ægir

Pictures?

Thats not a place where anything grows but... possible


----------



## Titus

Half inch long, hair thin, white translucent color, camera wont catch them.
Oh s*it, major error, I had a bag of Clearmax (leftover) which I dipped in the tank with the neon lip holding it, after taking the neon out I placed the bag on the tank lid, that thing was leaching the worms I guess.

Why is the Clearmax bag leaching worms? Hope it doesn't do it in the canister.


----------



## Titus

Observing some in the waterline...what the hell are those things?


----------



## Titus

Nitrites 1.0 things are starting to work out. What do you think about that?

And: No more white fuzz on driftwood, no more slime on the tank walls.

Only concerns for now are fighting and feeding (they want too much).

You should get a statue, thanks a lot man !


----------



## Ægir

Glad things are working out man... just found out I lost another one so down to 2 now, think its because they are pairing off to breed. A big tank would be a nice thing to have, and not a lousy dimensioned 55 gal









Hard to tell what the white things are... do they look like small worms?

If so, prob caused by extra food and waste in the water column... powerhead and lots more flow will fix that too

I hate to tell you to feed more because I hate those freeze dried sticks, if you got a better pellet I would say up the feedings.


----------



## Titus

Oh man, that sucks. What the hell are they doing, they want to go extinct...wonder if they are like this in the wild...

They look like worms, but not the ground type, the colon type







but they seem to have disappeared.

I'm sure they need more food, still no luck with hikari, I'll keep trying, can I give them frozen shrimp? Read somewhere that they really mess up the water.

Nitrites are 1.5 maybe 2.0, I'll change tomorrow, let things run longer. Changing 25% every other day.


----------



## Ægir

Raw shrimp, fish fillets (talpia, cod, catfish, even salmon occasionally) and seafoods like crab, octopus, mussels are all acceptable

I typically thaw it out in warm water, and rinse it off the best I can first. 
Just dont leave uneaten food in the tank and you will be fine.


----------



## Titus

Yeah, you know I feed them frozen cod, and yes, I thaw it in warm water and rinse all the oil and muck.

They loved the cod when water temp was higher and before I gave them the sticks, if you saw my feeding video you know what I mean, they almost jumped out to grab it out of my hand, but since the low temp they don't go for it that much...they still eat it though.


----------



## Ægir

I would say raise the temp some, but its prob going to only add to aggression... up to you


----------



## Titus

You know how I feel about that...

Did a test on tap water => It has NitrAtes about 25 mg/l

Changed 50%


----------



## Ægir

If the tap water has Nitrates, that is just encouraging algae growth and making your water changes less effective. Did this just show up or?

Options are cutting (mixing) your water with spring water or RO/DI water. Or buy your own RO/DI filter setup and add minerals back in (Seachem Equilibrium, or aquivitro mineralize) as pure RO/DI water will kill your fish (and you if you drink lots of it)


----------



## Titus

Maybe they treated it or haven't recently, this happened just now ! Always test tap during changes, first and last bucket, that's why I use strips, they are fast and give a benchmark, although I check them weekly with drops.

Aquarium gets only drop tests.


----------



## Titus

You are from the future...tank glass slimy...nitrites at 1.0 and nitrAtes at 50mg/l

Fed the boys cod, huge pieces per fish (half a thumb size) You should have seen them enjoy, no fighting, no skittishness, now they hang around the bottom and chill, did a gravel vac they didn't even care. I actually had to push one of them out of the way.

And when I put the decor back in position, one of them "tailed" me, nice hard hit on my hand, damn they are strong


----------



## Titus

WTF?!! All of them have swollen a little from the food but this guy.....


----------



## Ægir

Looks full









It should go away once the food is digested


----------



## Titus

Dumb*sses don't chew food, you should have seen the look on my face when I saw him, looked like he was inseminated by aliens









Went away, all is good


----------



## Ægir

Treatment would have been a cup of coffee and a cigarette... cleans me right out


----------



## Titus

Huge coffee addict here also, quit smoking about a month ago, e-cig helps.

Nitrites again...above 2.0 I'm confused!!!


----------



## Titus

Did a 50% yesterday, levels are above 2.0 today, I'm really annoyed and had enough !!!!


----------



## Ægir

Next time you do a water test, post a picture of the test tubes and cards. Dont use the flash on the camera, but make sure you are in decent sunlight (fluorescent and other lights make it harder to read)

If you can post a pic with a white notecard behind the tube, and the card beside it that would be best.


----------



## Titus

Sure, will do in a few minutes, tried to hold the tube with every background...results are the same.


----------



## Titus

Did a 50% yesterday...check this. I'm going bald.


----------



## Ægir

Wow, that is incredibly hard to read... to be honest it looks somewhere between .8 and 1.6 to me

Let me look and see if there are tips for using that specific test kit


----------



## Titus

Yeah man, told ya ! Don't worry did my best, we have a lot of nitrites and that's a fact, 3 different tests confirm it ! This drop test and two different brands of strips.

1.8 to 2.0 in 18 hours since the 50% change...things are getting worse !!! A 50% lasted me (2.0) 3 days, a week ago, what the **** is going on in there?!

-Added salt as you suggested with every change
-Both filters are packed with stuff
-Fish act normal, great appetite, no fighting, no gasping.
-Tap water has 25 mg/l nitrAtes...tank has a little slime on the walls, did not clean to keep the fish calm.

Seriously, things went wrong, I had no slime before, a 50% lasted me 3 days until levels were 1.8-2.0 (still a lot but better than this)


----------



## SKurj

Just a thought... have you thought about trying some plants? Some such as wisteria, and some of the floaters propagate real fast and might soak up some of those nitrates for you. I'd stop messing with things, no additives, no rearranging. Never had slime in any of my tanks before.. 
My first tank took nearly a month to cycle.,... everyone after considerably less due to mature media etc.


----------



## Titus

Not really into plants, maybe I'll give it a try later on but our problem is nitrItes not Ates, did a 30%, dont have conditioner for more...could really use some help !


----------



## Ægir

It has to be your tap water, something leeching back into the tank (ammonia / nitrite / nitrate absorbing media) or something killing the bacteria in the filter.


----------



## Titus

Think I'll end up killing myself...could the duct tape I used to dim the neon affect anything? Its covered with plastic food wrap...


----------



## SKurj

I'd be more inclined to think something is affecting the test kit or throwing off the reading..


----------



## Titus

Checked it with other tests and also tested the tap water with good results, nitrites have been going on for a month now...also after a big change we get very good results, its really weird, it's like something is pouring nitrites in the tank.

No active media in the filters, maintenance level=>surgeon, plenty of flow, lots on media, tons of oxygenation, tons of water changes...WHAT?!

Ammonia dropped within hours of installing the canister...then the nitrites...still nitrites, and more nitrites. Sick of writing this word down...

Fish have never gone up for air and they don't breathe heavily, I can hardly see them breathe !

Media in the filters is dirty (in a good way) lots of scrubbies, sponges and floss.

I cant stop feeding as they become violent, really violent !

Gravel...can that be causing nitrites?


----------



## Ægir

When I get done with work, I will do some extensive research and see what it could possibly be...

I am just wondering if you stop doing water changes, how high it will go if even to the point of becoming "unhealthy" for the fish... or if it will spike and then drop on its own. The weird part is that its nitrites and they arent being converted. I am starting to wonder if the high nitrates in your tap water are some how preventing bacteria growth

This is puzzling to me as well, as I have never seen it.


----------



## Titus

I would imagine to some extent that tap water can be a culprit but wait, it's only contained nitrates for a couple of days, it was perfect before. Thought about skipping changes, *but would the fish give me a "we suffer" sign before they crap out?* 
Not sure if I can put them through this...


----------



## Titus

Did a 60% to 70% change, things are "zeroed in" got my conditioner in the mail, bought tons...

Added a sponge filter to one of the air stones, I placed it "strategically", bought the best one I could find, seem quite well engineered and with the lift tube going above the waterline it literally pulls water out of the aquarium.

Took a segment out of the spray bar, now it dumps water in the middle of the tank for more circulation.

Lots of surface movement and splashy splashy...

Fish are super freaked out, hiding behind the wood.

Attempted to feed thawed shrimp, they ate a little but are kinda scared so I'll let them be.


----------



## Ægir

Yeah, there would be some obvious signs well before death or injury.

Its a good thing to keep up on your tank, but you can also over do things and cause issues... I am not sure if its something existing, or your "surgical" maintenance routine slowing things down.


----------



## Titus

After this change I will drop maintenance for a few days to see how things mature, added more surface, that's gotta do something right?

Also revised the "light dimming system" put the tape on the inside so it cant come in contact with the water. How did I not think of this before?!

Will post results in hope that you bare with me. Thanks for everything and hope you stay tuned !


----------



## Titus

Time to specify that we have some calcium deposits on exposed canister piping near the waterline, waited to say just in case it went away but it doesn't, this means hard water right? Any concerns there?


----------



## Titus

Nitrite is above 0.8 ran out of drops on the second reagent but some did come out like 4 out of 7 drops and the test did develop to slightly darker than 0.8 but not 1.6, will go tomorrow to get a new one. Fish seem fine.

Looked back in the topic, nitrites have been present for exactly a month and a week now.


----------



## Titus

Happy to report that* nitrites are no longer present* in my tank, no water change in the past 5 days, fish are fine, no more fighting although they keep distance from each other. They just ate shrimp, went mad when it entered the water









So yeah, don't know if it was the sponge or just cycle catching up...tank is great.

Nitrates are about 60 so I think I should do a wc tonight, what do you guys think?

Here are some photos of them, fish shop, old tank, new tank, present. They've grown...quite a lot. Sorry for the quality.


----------



## Titus

And a little observation, their activity level dropped quite a bit, temp is a constant 22C, 71F, they just hang around the bottom and take an occasional tour of the tank, at least they stopped fighting.


----------



## Ægir

Good to hear... I dont think a sponge filter would do anything significant in that amount of time unless it was taken from an established tank

A water change is prob a good idea

71 is right about where I keep my tanks


----------



## wizardslovak

nice lookin reds!!


----------



## Titus

Thanks, will try to get better pics when I finish the change.


----------



## Titus

Fresh out of the camera:


----------



## Titus

Guys, now I really worry about their reduced activity, they just stay around the bottom or behind the wood, I'm happy that they don't fight anymore and kinda get along but still, they begged for food, played with me before, noticed this decrease in activity since I haven't touched the tank (because I'm having a serious cold)

Don't get me wrong, I don't need them to be aggressive and fight, I hate that, just wanna make sure they are in good health. They look scared.


----------



## Ægir

wouldnt worry about it unless they are showing signs of damage (slimy scales, cloudy eyes etc...) they look fine in your pics

Odds are they are just maturing and have territories marked out... other than feeding mine typically chill in one spot

Turn the temp up if you want more activity?


----------



## Titus

Thanks









Enough activity for me, my boys are growing up


----------



## Titus

I was very busy lately but I'm happy to post that we are getting great results with the nitrites, and that is 0 mg/l.









A little issue I have is with the nitrAtes, they keep going to the 100mg/l mark and I cant get them down, my tap has 25 mg/l so changes are not very effective. Been changing 30% every 3 days, will that be my level of maintenance from now on? That change is only pulling levels down to about 50mg/l...

If there is any alternative...please.

Glad we got here, will setup a paypal account and donate to this great forum, Ægir please pm me about that, I've read somewhere that the forum isn't going to be going on for much longer...why is that?


----------



## Titus

Sleepy Red's eating shrimp. Silver belly piranha !


----------



## Ægir

Good looking vid man... glad to see they are accepting food so well


----------



## Titus

Thanks, just wanna catch them begging for food, usually happens around noon when sunlight reaches the tank, you should see them chop their mouths at me !


----------



## scent troll

^ that's awesome Titus!

my old Oscars would do that with me but never my piranhas. very cool to see stuff like that. its funny how the fish can learn like that. I actually adopted a blind piranha years ago from a buddy of mine. it was wounded in his tank and both of his eyes were more or less shredded. couldn't see. I kept him solo in a 40 gallon to himself and had to click on the glass where I kept his food so he would start associating the source of the click with food.

it worked! in about 2 weeks of doing that he started to swim right to wherever youd tap the glass. that was his only hope for surviving since he couldn't see to actively hunt. and he adopted and learned.

they are quite impressive animals


----------



## Titus

Amazing story, central, thanks for sharing ! They are amazing, did not expect this when I got them, I purchased them out of impulse like most first timers do...look where it has got me


----------



## scent troll

I know man isn't that awesome?? I remember the day I got into piranha. I was at a borders books of all places. I cracked open a book on fish and stumbled across a piranha page and thought "holy hell that thing looks amazing". I had to have one!

I did the typical buy first learn later thing. I was at the pet shop the next day. which brings me to piranha fury. I got online and scrambled for information right away. I came across pfury. the rest is history. 
that was about a decade ago now. 
piranha are still amazing fish to me.


----------



## Titus

Feeding baby red shrimp.


----------



## Titus

Guys, just fed them and when I saw how enthusiastic they were about it, I decided to shoot a video.

*They took the shrimp out of my hand* ! 



 - at 0:18

These fish are amazing!


----------



## Ægir

Neat man, never wanted to try that with my rhom... Have seen him hit the surface so hard it almost knocks the lid off









Watch those fingers man... with teeth as sharp as a scalpel, only takes a little nip to get ya


----------



## scent troll

that's an awesome video! thanks for sharing

talk about aggressive little buggers holy crap! that's really cool though. lots of my piranhas ive had would shy away when I touched the lid of the tank, even with food. really awesome. I can tell you really love those fish.


----------



## Titus

Yeah guys, they are pretty forward, I try to do my best not to scare them in any way possible, even if sometimes that means slowly approaching the tank, I only turn the light of for feeding time, it does not benefit them in any way so might as well leave it of, can see them very good without it, kinda useless at this point









I had a friend over once and he got close to the tank (with his face), two of them rushed towards him chomping mouths and everything, from there on I only let people near the tank when they (red's) accept it. Never shown any aggression towards me. And they hate the dog, given the chance they would murder him, they love the cat...









@Ægir kinda scared me when I felt the tail washout when he turned after taking the food, amazon muscle ! I can only imagine your rhom !!!


----------



## scent troll

the thing about a piranha bite. you wont even feel it. youll just bleed like a stuck pig after. those teeth are truly amazing cutting devices.


----------



## Colty

Ya...As Central said u wont feel the pain but you bleed like a hell...

Their teeth are scissors cut...


----------



## Titus

Did not write anything in a while because I was busy with some exams, time for some stories.

Hand feeding is going very well, they've actually developed a routine, they stay in a line and wait for the food to go in, first one gets it then he goes back in the line, it's awesome, will try to catch it. Now they take it slowly even in my hand is in the water, they just come and take it gently.

They have gotten very comfortable with me and that has some weird disadvantages:

1. I can't do a proper gravel vac anymore, they just hover around where I need to clean and I end up pushing them around with the siphon...they love it, like I'm scratching them...(video of that soon)

2. I sometimes need to put my hand in to arrange decor or recently I cleaned the powerhead's filter...before they just swam the other way not minding me...now they hit my hand, don't bite me just hit me with the "nose"...*hard*

3. I have no place near the tank unless I have food on me....they get mad and chomp at me.

4. Morning greeting is them bashing the glass...yeah food again.

5. They wanna eat the dog.

What if I attached some fishing line to the shrimp and made them chase it...wouldn't last long given their agility but will it benefit them in any way to chase something?

Lately feeding for them is just opening their mouth, very entertaining for me, but how is it for them?

Also the test vials are starting to be a problem, they wanna attack those as well.

My hands are intact and they will NOT bite me...just bash into me, I love my little fellas ! Sorry for not posting in a while.


----------



## Titus

Tonight I will attempt to feed them with a fishing line and get a video of it, I will film the entire thing, beginning to end, we'll see what turns out.

I'll try to make them work for it as much as possible, I haven't been near the tank in 15hrs, I usually feed them twice a day which I hadn't done today, and when 24hrs'ish since the last feeding has passed I will shoot the video.

Still trying to figure out a way to attach the shrimp to the line without a knot, even if they catch the knot with their teeth I guess they will shear it instantly. Don't think they will get tooth damage, right?


----------



## wizardslovak

needle it through , should hold enough of shrimp
When i was teaching my p for pellets i didnt feed her for few days ,, starving she took it right up


----------



## Titus

Fed the boys, did not prepare well, got a short vid of feeding with the line, not worth uploading all of them, this is the best one, and a video of normal feeding after I ditched the line method. Watchable vids, hope you enjoy.

Got a little pissed that's why I ditched the line, I think one of them ate a tiny bit of line...less that a half inch, hope he'll be fine, not sure if he did it but still...what do you think.

Line : 




Normal :


----------



## Titus

Got a little injury, just noticed it, is this an issue?


----------



## Ægir

Nope, like I said when its an issue you will be putting the fish down the toilet or in the freezer.


----------



## Titus

Thanks man, worried about infection. He's fine, nasty as ever...

I hope they will all die of age, I'll do what I can to make sure of that but when that happens I wanna preserve them somehow, I don't like the way they look dried with skin on, don't want zombie piranhas staring at me, I'd much prefer to keep them as skeletons.


----------



## Titus

Been very busy with some car trouble, all is solved and I wanted to share some pics for an update. The guy with the chomped lip is healing, and if you can see it in the pics two of them have light "burns" behind their gills, and one of them has a nasty bump on his chin which hasn't healed for three weeks now, what do you guys think?

Hard to catch the bump on chin guy, it's like a pimple, big one, he must have slammed the glass but its been there for 3 weeks and they usually heal bumps in a week.

They've been very social lately and are eating well.

Params are ammo 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 50.


----------



## Ægir

I am thinking that what you are seeing behind the gills is just the gill plate and a different coloration... looking good man, glad to see things are doing so well and that the tank finally cycled out.


----------



## Titus

Thank you for all your help!

Kinda weird but is it ok to think about another tank?...they've only had this one for 3-4 months...main problem with getting another one is the fact that I know I'll move in the near future (1yr or so), and I want to make a great setup in the new house. If I get a huge tank now it will make moving a lot harder, will have to setup yet another tank in the new house. Plus it's kinda hard to lug around 100+ gallon tanks since we don't have F350's and Ram's here...don't wanna keep them in buckets while I reinstall the tank in the new home.

What do you think?

Next question would be used vs new. 
*New:* I can have one custom built just like I did with this one. Current tank and stand were 300$ 'ish excluding the gear. A tank built to my taste would be 400$ plus the cost of a sturdy stand for it...then comes filtration, I was thinking about an "in tank sump" because I like the "low risk" of it and of course the cost of such a setup would be far less than another media tank with plumbing (which I would be very uncomfortable with) I guess a canister for a 125 'ish gallon tank is out of the question...and of course I like not having to rely on electricity and chinese built crap, the only thing that can go wrong with a sump is the return pump which I would always have a spare for, just in case. I don't worry about heating because I have a constant 76 F in the house so no need for a heater. Only con would be cost.

*Old:* Cheaper, usually comes with stand, main concerns are scratches, not finding the size I actually want, the fact that it might not be designed for an in tank sump setup, but that's easy to make, and the biggest problem in my head would be strength...was it built properly? I really don't need 125 gallons in my living room. Only advantage with a used one is cost...is it worth it?

And should I get a big one now or wait for the house change...not 100% sure I will move...lots of outside factors influence that.

I'll post pics with the current living room and maybe you guys will help me decide on a spot for the "new" tank if we decide to get one.

Waiting for advice.


----------



## Ægir

Both new and used have advantages... lots of times you can find great deals on used tanks that are in great condition. As for the stand thing, pretty simple to reinforce and beef up... just post pics and I can give you an idea what to add.

As for the filtration... on a bigger tank, sump is the way to go. You could easily have the new tank filled and up to temp and then add your current canister and drop the fish in... that would give you some time to build the sump and get everything ready. Once you brought the sump online, you could use the canister for the smaller tank again and breed feeders or something.

The only real concern is finding a drilled tank, or one without tempered glass to drill on your own for the sump setup... but thats also easy to figure out


----------



## Titus

Maybe you can find great deals in the US, not many around here, rich ppl have bowfronts with guppy's pretty much sums it up. Found a huge tank with some species of shark *poking out of it* literally, he described the shark in "great heath" and violent...poor thing doesn't have room to flap it's fins. That also sums it up.

What about that in tank sump? Do we really need a separate tank if we build the desired "fish space" from the beginning?

Main question is how long before they start being uncomfortable in this one? As you know I wanna provide the best conditions and I like to go "full retard" on a number of things so I'd like to buy them the biggest one I can.

How good are you at redecorating living rooms? I guess you know your stuff given the awesome builds you did. Really need to take some pics of my living, space is a concern, I don't want to make stuff look awkward, most of the furniture in the room is from the 18th century...mom wont let me get it out of the house even if I own the damn thing and she hasn't been living here for 10 years...damn austrian collectors sh*t...I cant imagine squeezing my dream tank around it.

I'm so bad at redecorating, I haven't moved a chair since I live here...scared of changes, I think its a condition.


----------



## Ægir

I would personally never do anything in the display tank except for keep fish and maybe a backup heater, not a fan of the cluttered look... Its also easier to maintain when its in a remote location.

Hard to say, mine just started eating each-other so there was really no warning or showing signs of uncomfortable... but it will be sooner than you expect.

Post some pics man, I will do what I can... I typically build things not decorate









I would find some nice storage space for the stuff you dont want, and if need be move it in when she visits.


----------



## Titus

Totally agreed, nothing visible, 10 inches of tank legth reserved for media, pump and heater and masked off with black wood looking tape stuf. Easy to access from the top and done...

Found a 400 L tank for less than 100$ just 30miles away from me, it fits in the Discovery and I can go for it tomorrow, problem is it's dimensions, 150x45x60 in metric, that's only 50 cm longer than mine, I could still keep this canister and maybe add another one just like this and still have change for beer. Did I say its about 90$?!!!

I can get this tomorrow but I really want a 200x60x60 what do you think?

Click http://www.publi24.ro/anunturi/animale/pesti/accesorii/anunt/acvariu/7b0e6777796c6b50.html


----------



## Colty

Hi...I think it got injured near the mouth am i right ?If yes then no worries it would get heeled with in matter of days...


----------



## Titus

Can you guys help me find out my red's age?

The shop that I got them from said they were about 4 months old when I got them, but then again, they wanted to put them in a plastic bag...guess how that turned out? Yeah they were on the cash register in less that 20 seconds.

Measured next to the glass they are 5 inches, I've had them for 5 months.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll

Mine are a year old. Three of them are 4" and two of them are 5", if that helps any???

Had eight originally and three of them got eaten while they were very young. Bought five at first which were put into a plastic pot to bring home with me. Went back to the same shop 4 days later to buy the other three and the woman that served me put them into a plastic bag. Walking along the hallway of the shop following behind her all that I could see was a trail of water. It was really quite funny to watch. Needless to say they were put into a plastic pot again after that.


----------



## Titus

Aww man really? We almost have the same story, bought two at first...plastic bag...splashy splashy. After a week me and my girlfriend thought about that poor fish I left behind (shop had 3) because I thought his small eye was a death sentence, so we went and bought him just a week later, this time the shop had another guy attending and he also put him in a plastic bag when I wasn't looking...laughed my a** off and made him feel like the idiot that he was for giving me an injured fish again...

Happy to report they are all living in harmony and the guy with the small eye is the most "social" and he is a little crazy, biting hoses, chomping at me, but he is the first to greet me in the morning !

Shop never had and will never bring any more P's as they are not really appreciated here. Glad to have saved my little Weird Eye, sometimes call him Crazy Eye. The others are named Hitler and Spot. Hitler is a mean bastard that always gets in the others territory and intimidates them, Spot has a white spot on his eye. I'd post some pics but I'm very ashamed of my camera skills. Photos don't do them any justice.


----------



## Titus

Given the high forum activity, decided to shoot some pictures for you guys, excuse the focus...can't really catch them but the lighting is spot on, if you look closely at the canister exhaust there's a little "rainbow" forming, looks amazing !

Please excuse the water marks, just did a change and I'm tired so I didn't clean the exterior.

So proud of them !!! Last pic is older, just wanted to show a focused close-up.


----------



## Ægir

Looking good man


----------



## Fisch

noice... I'm in the middle of making homemade glow in the dark rocks. just need to dip them in polyurethane so they don't hurt the piranhas.

tank looks great man


----------



## Titus

Temps here are starting to go up, so is the water inside my tank, Red's are starting to be more active in a bad way, I will setup a fan to blow on the waterline and will post pics when it's done.

Hope I don't have to use it all day, don't really like the idea of having the tank lid off.


----------



## Ægir

Titus said:


> Temps here are starting to go up, so is the water inside my tank, Red's are starting to be more active in a bad way, I will setup a fan to blow on the waterline and will post pics when it's done.
> 
> Hope I don't have to use it all day, don't really like the idea of having the tank lid off.


Go to a hardware store and find a pair of window screens (or one bigger one, 2 is nice for feeding) to replace the glass lids... might have to set a book on them or something

Some places sell kits, so you can make your own size even... or eggcrate would also work.


----------



## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer

i usually just dial the temp down a bit in the summer months


----------



## Titus

The window screen idea is great, I'll go to a hardware store and check out what they got.

In the meantime I did this, will leave it for 1-2 hours and check the results.

Excuse my photography.

Having a little behavior issue, they get spooked quickly, and I mean really quick. Before I could chase them with my hand in the tank no issues, but lately once the lid comes off they dart all over the place and sometimes wont accept food. Nothing changed in my routine or anything. They just freak out randomly. Should I check for something? I thought maturity would make them more chill but it's the opposite.


----------



## Titus

Feeding video. Baby shrimps.


----------



## Titus

Some updates:

Fish are maturing really well, fighting has gone down to just nibbles, they are really growing up I think I'll have to do that tank upgrade sooner than planned. They are palm sized now so about 7,1/2 inches.

Posted a while back about rising temps, did as Ægir suggested and left the top off securing the tank with mosquito net so they don't dart out, that reduced temp by 2F and I also installed an a/c unit in the room and now temp is a constant 72F.

Their appetite is growing, they seem to accept other people less, I dunno why, my bond with them is even stronger, I can put my hand in there and almost pet them, no issues.

I was waiting for the "gill burn" to disappear but no luck, I'll post a pic below, it's been there for ages and water quality is always pristine. What do you guys think? Excuse photography skills.


----------



## Ægir

I think its just the gill plate, and doesnt seem to be an issue as long as its not getting worse or curling.

looking good man


----------



## Titus

It ain't curling and its been this way for months but kinda odd looking, like they've been touched with a soldering iron there...none of the p's i've seen have that. They are in good health and feeding well...a lot.

Wish I could take a decent photo of the tank, swear it looks amazing !


----------



## Titus

A little something


----------



## Ægir

Looking good... They are definitely growing.


----------



## Titus

Aren't they ?! Just noticed it when I saw the vid, my gf took it while I was at work, when I saw it...mindblown.


----------



## Ægir

I was wondering about the painted fingernails


----------



## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer

excellent colour on those guys, that is exactly what reds should look like, they look straight out of a textbook picture

decent size on them too

i like how you pointed to the peice floating away and the red came and snatched it up


----------



## Titus

Thank you ! My girl shot the vid while I was at work, they actually look/come to where you point, kinda awesome, also they swim right next to me when I gravel vac and arrange stuff around, I poke them sometimes, they are very mellow.

They also need a tank upgrade...


----------



## Titus

Went Pike fishing, caught a catfish (with spinning gear).

13 minute drill. Will upload vid to yt.

Abu Garcia rod, reel and lure...from the 70's


----------



## Titus

Time to post:

We moved to a new (old) house, house that I grew up in, lots of space so obviously my boys had to get a bigger tank.

On to the tank: Custom built 140gal, running two canisters, an internal powerhead and 350W heater. Black gravel, black background, large piece of wood inside.

Was afraid to move the fish but Ægir walked me through it, put them in large buckets each, heated the car and made a run for it, they were white and mellowed out by the time I put them in the new tank but everything went just fine, no darting around the tank, no fighting. Had them eating by day two.

Avoided another cycle by carefully moving the canisters, glad to report that after a week params are perfect so I think I'm out of the danger zone.

They are much more relaxed in the new tank, having much more space to roam about, they don't even get scared when I bang the lid on the tank by accident.

Hope you enjoy the pics, they are awful ! Thank you Ægir...again !!!


----------



## Ægir

Looking good man, glad to help out!

Tank and floor holding up / staying level?


----------



## Titus

No drops as of yet, we're level...hope it stays there.

Market is out of baby red shrimps, bought some big white ones and some pollock fillets, problem is they sh*t all over the tank with the new food. Hope it's ok.

This also exposed another problem, not enough flow for the new tank, I'm still debating if we aren't better of just taking the crap out every other day rather than having it in the filters, what do you think?


----------



## Ægir

I would add a big powerhead like we discussed... let it compost down and become bacteria food. A weekly water change / monthly filter change is easier than daily water changes.


----------



## Titus

I bought a 2000 lph powerhead which I use to pump water up in the tank when I do water changes, maybe I'll dump it in.

Monthly canister cleaning? Is that necessary? I used to clean it every three or four months.


----------



## Ægir

2000L is only 530 GPH... I am talking something like 9000-10000L range.

Monthly isnt necessary, just clean it when you notice reduced flow. Its pretty simple to shake out the sponges in a bucket of old tank water. Now that you have a bigger tank, you will prob be fine with 2 water changes/ month anyways, just use your test kit and get a feel for it.


----------



## Titus

Nitrates went up from 10 to 25 in a week, did a 25%, back down to 10 (according to the test) Tetra makes awful, unreadable tests.

Tank is a little tilted (left to right) but that was something that I chose not to correct because I would've had to compensate on 4 more legs with thinner shims front and back...to hard. Let me put it like this, to make it dead level I'd have to add another 2mm shim under the level (lengthwise) Floor hasn't let go so I'm happy with that.

Regarding flow: powerhead is pumping lengthwise, they seem to hide from the current behind the wood. I don't think they enjoy the flow tbh.


----------



## Ægir

Wouldnt worry about a few mm.

As for the flow, they will get used to it... my reds learned to like it and now swim in the flow / let it push them around.


----------



## scent troll

this is a really kick ass thread. titus how are the piranha doing? you mentioned they were fighting in the other thread.


----------



## Titus

Well after two weeks of peace and quiet in the new tank, swimming around, checking things out, they are starting to go nuts, of course 140 gallons isn't enough so they need to cram in a damn corner and fight for that spot like idiots, had to go in with the net to break up the fight, they were in a "death spiral" I call that when they start to spin around each other biting their sides.

After a half hour of doing just that as I said, broke them up with the net, when I see them interact with me and stuff around them I'm surprised of their intelligence and awareness but sometimes they just sh*t all over my opinion and act like retards.

Tank is 5 foot long and 2 ft deep...they use about 12 inches and all of them need to be in that spot. This started today, hope it ends tomorrow or I'll start dividing them.

Parameters are great under 15 mg/l of nitrates, never had a spike with ammonia and nitrites.

There they go again, I'm gonna kick some piranha a** stay tuned !


----------



## Titus

Did the net thing again, shot a video of the new led light I got them, has a 5 step variable color temperature and intensity , I usually have it around warm 2500k with mid intensity level.

Here's the video, switched to 7000k to make them show up better on the video


----------



## Ægir

Move the light over the area they are trying to claim, or aim the powerhead there...

Its funny how they want to stay together, and then fight instead of moving to another part of the tank.


----------



## Titus

They're little bitches, acting tough and all that but when something scares them they glue themselves together.

Put a lego pirate ship on top of the tank, that calmed things down as it gives them something to look at, you should see them stare at it









I can't focus on one spot as they always find something new to fight about, I'm glad they aren't bored.


----------



## scent troll

Titus said:


> They're little bitches, acting tough and all that but when something scares them they glue themselves together.


perfect example of piranhas


----------



## Titus

Time for a poop scoop, fed them cod...


----------



## scent troll

whats the thing they enjoy most eating?
i always fed mine mainly white fish. i would just make a grocery store run. but the thing they went ape sh*t for were shrimp. whole, in the shell and all.


----------



## Titus

Mine as well, shrimp makes them go mad, after eating two fist fulls they start to mellow and even take it out of my hand gently.


----------



## scent troll

pretty cool. 
is there an alpha in the pack or do they all have a pretty balanced coexistence


----------



## Titus

Depends from day to day, their names are Hitler, Weird Eye and Dot.

Hitler is the biggest one, despite them being brothers he is noticeably bigger thus more tough and not a push-over, nobody messes with him. And sometimes he's plain evil, hence the name, intimidates, pushes other guys out of their spot, mean bastard.

Weird Eye is just weird, he has that small eye which freaks ppl out, he's smaller that the others, lives his live like a thug, strikes other fish when they don't expect it and for no apparent reason, he stays in the center, in the light, roams around and pretty much dominates everyone except for when Hitler is in a bad mood, then poor Eye gets his ass handed to him. He's like the weird uncle...but probably our favorite.

Dot is mellow, doesn't get in anyone's way, let's things be. He has a white dot in the center of one of his eyes. 
Almost as big as Hitler, smaller tail though.


----------



## Titus

A little something


----------



## Titus

Update: Fish are fine, growing up, slower than before but still noticeable.

With age they got mellow, no more fighting in the 140gal, I like the way they use the new space, swimming around nicely no more territory tension between them.

They seem to enjoy my presence more, had small kids in the house, they were bashing the glass and running around the tank after the fish, P's didn't care, played along nicely, no more hiding and darting around the tank as soon as the lights come on. Still hating the dog...they would destroy him if given the chance.

Also, I almost managed to pet them without me having to approach them, Hitler is the bravest, got within an inch of my hand. If I approach them slowly they will let me touch them a bit before going the other way but they've never got close to me as if they wanted to be petted...now it's starting to happen, will film my progress. I started just by having my hand in the tank, doing nothing, then after a couple of times doing this, slowly approached them, and finally I wanna just have them approach me and play around. No signs of agression towards me, only new people and the dog...they go mad when they see him.


----------



## Titus

Hello...is there anybody in there?


----------



## Ægir

Definitely growing and looking great!


----------



## Colty

Hi nice to see you guys after a long period ..by the way titus your fish looks awesome and definitely grown out... Cheers mate..keep rocking with updates


----------

