# Rays



## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

I want a motoro ray pretty bad so I am wondering as to what setup people have for their rays? What tank mates do you have? How involved is the keep? What size tank etc? Thanks alot in advance.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

Rays are one of the hardest fish out there to keep. they need a high standard of water quality. and many are picky with their food
they are also fairly espensive to keep more so that other fish.
theyalso need very large tanks. lenght and width are important and need to be big enough for an adult without its wings touching both sides as it swims.
if i were you i would think long and hard about getting one. it takes alot of dedication and time to keep one succesfully and large tanks are needed.
if your heart is really set on one, and your prepared for the responsibility then i can give you some more specific information and direct you to some good websites.
but as i said think about it very carefully, rays are not like other fish where you can quickly set up a tank, cycle it the throw the fish in.


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## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

Wow, I really appreciate the timely response. This has been an idea I have been running through my head for a while now and it is time that I got some more education on the subject. The dedication I most certainly have and the tank I am not concerned with either. The setup I can get. The question of money obviously pops up, but when doesnt it. So if you wouldnt mind, can I have some more information. Thanks man.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

ok this will take some time.
first off i suggest you do alot of reading before you attempt to keep rays. 
my friend once kept some FW rays. i have not, but i have kept SW rays. and this summer am planning to set up a touch pool for 2-3 rays. so i do have experience.
no because im too lazy to type it all up myself, im gonna copy and paste information for you instead. now this information is ones i have read myself and trust and know to be good information. so its not total random whatevr i could find copy nd pasting.

this is a very general guide which i have taken from another website. i have read it myself. its good general info and alot of it is common sense too but i think this is a god place for you to start. if you have any specific questions after reading this just ask ill try to help you out the best i can

Average Cost:
Rays are on the more expensive side of fishkeeping. Young "Tea Cups" can be purchased from $40 or $70, depending on size. "Tea Cup" is just a term given to any young Ray with a disk size of under 5 inches. I have found most to be either P. reticulata or P. hystrix. Another commonly found Ray is P. humerosa, sometimes referred to as the "Guyana Ray," even though they come from more places than just Guyana. This Ray is easily confused with P. orbignyi, which sells for about the same price.

Smaller Rays, in general, are more sensitive to stress than larger individuals, so please take that into consideration when buying. The prices listed below are based on what I have seen with the most commonly sold sizes, being around 5 or 6 inches in diameter. The common, "run of the mill" Motoro, being the Orange Spotted Ray, is probably the best Ray for a beginner. I have seen 5 inch individuals sell anywhere from $75 to $150. I paid $80 for mine. Leopoldis are significantly more expensive than other types, and have recently become almost impossible to get due to export bans on all Black Rays from their native Brazil. Although they are also "hardy," I recommend that beginners stay far away from this type, simply because of the price tag. If they can be found for sale, expect to pay up over $1,000.

Of course, there are rare color variations within each species that demands an extremely high price. A good example is the Marble and Chain Link Motoro. A Chain Motoro will have spots that are touching or near touching around the edge of the disk. A Marbled Motoro is pretty much the same thing, except distinct marbled swirls are apparent between the spots. My Chain Motoro was purchased for $170 at 6 inches in disk diameter.

P. scobinae is another smaller growing species that is often considered good for beginners because of its small size. I have seen them available for about $100 for a small individual. The other species are usually much more expensive than the above listed types. The price changes greatly depending on quality, demand, and availablity.

When buying a Ray, make sure it is active. Avoid any individual that just sits there. Also, make sure you see it eat before you even think about taking it home. Find out how long it's been in the store. Get as much info about the fish as you can. Getting an unhealthy Ray is a waste of a lot of money.

Size:
Stingrays mature at a variety of sizes. The smallest growing Rays are P. hystrix, P. scobinae, and P. reticulata. They max out at around 12 inches in disk diameter. Reticulatas have a very long tail however, so can be 12 inches of disk plus another 12 inches in tail! P. orbignyi and P. humerosa max out at around 14 inches and also have very long tails. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule and I have heard of individuals growing larger than average. P. motoro is next in line, maxing out at about 18 to 24 inches in diameter. The other common types, P. leopoldi, P. henlei, P. castexi, and P. menchacai, all max out at over 30 inches in diameter!

Rays can be raised in smaller tanks, but the tank must grow with the fish. Once the Ray becomes as long (including tail) as the tank is wide, then it's time to upgrade! This can take a while depending on species and certain individuals. One of my P. motoro went from 4 inches to 12 inches in diameter in about a year. That is phenominal growth for a Stingray. Others grow much slower. Just pace your specific Ray's growth and you will know when it's time to get a new home.

Perhaps the perfect enclosure for a Stingray is an indoor pond (this is what im doing







ays are best viewed from the top anyways. Unfortunately, if you can only see them from the top, you can't witness the awesome activity of climbing up the sides of the tank. It is very entertaining.

Water Requirements:
Rays are considered to be one of the most difficult types of freshwater fish to keep, though that should be no reason to scare away potential keepers. It is simply a warning to avoid uneeded suffering to both the fish and the owner. The impulse buy of a Ray usually results in a dead Ray and a loss of a lot of money. Please, research before you buy! With the proper preparation and research, they can be very rewarding additions to any hobbyist's collection.

Since most Freshwater Rays originate from South America, they do well in moderately soft water that is slightly acidic. Don't fret if you don't have the perfect pH for keeping them. I have heard of them being kept very well and even breeding in hard, alkaline water. The most important factor is consistency. If you have a nice constant pH, and it isn't obscenely high, then everything should be fine. Trying to fix it often causes more harm than good, because fish certainly don't appreciate a pH roller coaster. A low pH is easily controlled by adding bags of crushed coral to the filter. Just start out small and add till the desired pH is reached. Make sure you know the reason for acidic water first, however. If it is due to soft water with a low buffering capacity, then crushed coral is a good remedy. If it is due to poor filtration and dirty water creating ammonia, then the correct answer is water changes! Water temperature should be kept at 80 to 82 degrees.

When a new Ray arrives, a proper acclimation time is a must in order to keep stress levels to a minimum. Perhaps the easiest way is by gently placing the Ray in a Rubbermaid tub with the water from the bag it came in. Test that water for pH and then compare that to the pH of the tank that it will soon habitate. The goal is to slowly, and as stress-free as possible, acclimate the Ray to the new environment's water conditions. This can be done by setting up a slow drip from the tank to the tub and letting it go for a couple hours till the tub matches the tank in conditions. Of course, as the tub fills take away some of the water with a cup or small bucket. The acclimation period can take up to a couple hours and is an absolute must, especially with more sensitive Rays like P. menchacai and P. schroederi. Once proper acclimation is attained the easiest way to get the Ray into the tank is to gently tip the tub into the tank and let it swim out. It is a good idea to keep the Ray separated from any tankmates using a divider (I use egg-crate purchased from the lighting department at any home improvement store). Keep the lights off for a few days and just leave the Ray alone as much as possible. Do not be alarmed if it doesn't take food immediately. It is common for a new Ray to go as long as a couple weeks before feeding in a new home. It shouldn't be a problem for a healthy individual. Offering any Ray's favorite food, live blackworms, is always a good idea until it actively starts feeding on other foods. Once the Ray settles in, then the divider can be removed.

Rays are also super sensitive to water quality, some species moreso than others. This means that ammonia and nitrites must always be kept at 0. Nitrate levels should also be watched closely and controlled by water changes. Strong and very efficient filtration is needed. Wet drys are highly recommended to take care of the nitrogen cycle. Water changes of about 50% should be performed faithfully once a week. If you do not have a Python, then I highly recommend you get one. When refilling the tank, make sure you match the temperature and pH as closely as possible. You don't want to stress out your Ray. Water conditioner should be added prior to filling.

Another important consideration that goes along with water quality is substrate. The best type to use would be sand, because Rays have delicate undersides and will bury themselves in it. This is part of their natural behavior. When picking out a type of sand, stay away from silica based ones, as they can be very abrasive on delicate undersides. I highly recommend Estes Marine Sand, which is available in a rainbow of colors, including black, and is perfectly Ray-safe. It also will not cloud your tank and settles out almost immediately. Gravel is also an option, but detritus easily gets stuck (no matter how clean you keep it) and will spoil water quality. Gravel can also be abrasive and Rays will not be able to bury themselves in it. The easiest way to go, though not the prettiest, is no substrate at all. The only problem with this is that the Rays won't be able to get traction and will "skid" around a little.

Rays are very sensitive to stress, some more than others. If you watch your Ray closely, it will tell you how it feels. A healthy specimen will have a nice colored underside without inflamed blotches. It will almost always be in motion, whether it is sifting through the substrate for food, or swimming up the sides of the tank. A happy Ray is an active Ray, that eats like a pig! A sick individual will have a red underside and be stationary. It will also refuse to eat. Another indicator is the "death curl," a condition where the Ray's disk curls up at rest.

In short, make sure water quality is optimum, stress is minimal, and keep things constant. If all these conditions are met, then your Ray should thrive. If you want an easy to keep fish that can be ignored for weeks on end, then a Ray is not for you.

Feeding Requirements:
Variety is key. Young Rays with a disk diameter of 5 inches or less are fed blackworms and chopped earthworms. Older Rays are graduated to shrimp, beef heart, scallops, small fish, squid, and whole earthworms. I recommend all the above foods except the live fish. There are too many risks involved. I never feed my Rays feeders and they are fine. Newly acclimated Rays should be fed as many blackworms as they can eat until they start actively taking other foods.

A Ray should be fed every day. It should always be begging. This is a good sign. As a Ray eats, it's stomach will grow, causing it's back to "hump." Don't worry, this is completely normal. Your Ray's "hump" should be back to normal the next time you feed it. I feed mine every 24 hours or so. Signs of an underfed Ray are a skinny tail, protruding bones on either side of the base of the tail, and a caved in dent in the forehead.

I handfeed mine or use a turkey baster. The latter is easier. I shoot the food under the disk and the Ray does the rest. Make sure the food is small enough to be bite sized. Rays cannot open their mouths any wider than they look, so proper consideration should be taken.

Some Rays are considered "hardier" than others, but I believe that if you meet the above requirements for water quality, than any properly acclimated Ray can be kept with relative ease. Some Rays are, however, not as aggressive when it comes to feeding. Many times more timid feeders are lost when kept with more aggressive feeders, and instead of realizing the problem at hand, it usually ends up being blamed on the species not being "hardy." As an example, P. menchacai and P. schroederi are usually timid feeders and can have a hard time competing for food against known aggressive feeders like P. leopoldi. Some keepers usually end up assuming that they are not as hardy, which is not true (though they are more sensitive to stress, but keeping stress to a minimum is a good rule of thumb to use for any Ray regardles of the species). Timid feeding is in their nature. They can be kept just as well as any other Ray, provided the right requirements are met.

Temperament:
In general, Rays are very docile, some moreso than others. They will pretty much keep to themselves. This doesn't mean that they can't be nasty every once in a while. As they sexually mature, Rays become more bold, and will sometimes act out on other fish. A common behavior to see is "topping," which is usually done to other Rays as a sign of dominance. When it is done to other fish I call it "humpling." It could be that the Ray considers the fish to be a potential snack, or just wants to be bothersome, but it does happen. Usually no damage is done, but sometimes fin nips can be attributed to Ray humpling. My B. juruense has lost his dorsal fin numerous times, but luckily it has grown back each time. I'm not saying that Rays are nasty like most Cichlids, but they do have their moments. The best way I can describe them is that they act like little kids...they always have to touch everything.

Of course, be VERY wary of any Ray's spine. It will deliver a very painful sting. The spine is shed about every 3 months or so and replaced with a new one. It should not be a problem unless your hand goes looking for trouble.

Because of their high activity level, you should keep the tank clear of obstructions, so they have plenty of room to move about. If you decide to keep your Rays in a sand substrate, they will bury themselves once in a while. Do not worry, this behavior is quite natural.

Rays should be kept with more reserved, unaggressive fish. They are very vulnerable to being picked on. Good choices are the lesser aggressive Arowanas, such as Silvers and Blacks. Gars would be another good choice. Bottom dwellers, such as Polypterus and Clown Knives, are also a consideration. Stay away from curious, territorial, and aggressive fish such as Oscars, Jack Dempseys, and other large Cichlids.

Another consideration is food. A Ray must be hand fed if it is kept with aggressive eaters. Of course, make sure the Ray can't eat it's tankmates.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

these are some pictures of my blue spot stingray i had a few years back. kept it with the help from my dad. these stingrays are notorious for dieing in captivity totally randomly. this is what happened to ours. we had it for 6 months before it just dies suddenly 24hours after it started acting strange. active and lively up to then. anyway here some pics. i know its not FW but i thought you might like to see. sorry no full tank shos. we dont have the tank anymore


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## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

wow thats awesome. where did u get all that info? what size tank did u keep ur ray in and how big was he?


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

he was about 5-6 inches across when we first got him. he grew to be about 10 inches across.
can't remember how big he got from tip to tail. about 50cm i guess.
he was amazing to watch. but bear in mind he is SW.

if you want more info a quick google search will yield huge amounts of information but you must sift through it to find the stuff which is usefull. this can be annoying and tiresome.
i had this info saved on my computer under rays. i think i got this off aquaticpredators.com. but i cannot be sure.

so what are you thoughts and feelings on keeping rays after reading the basics?


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## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

I am completely fascinated!!!! I am at the point where I have plenty of time yet before I make a decision so I just want to gather some more info, do some research, calculate some prices and logistics and if it works out then time will tell.

A beginner question alas...... what does SW and FW mean?


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

SW = salt water

FW = fresh water


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## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

yupppp...... that makes alot of sense now


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

:laugh:

im obviously assuming your going FW.
if you got anymore questions just post up or pm me and ill help out best i can.
but the more reading up you do the better. knowledge is power as they say


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## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

yeah I am going to opt for the FW. Knowledge is definitely power and as it turns out I am looking for some more info as we speak. What kind of setup do/did you have in terms of tank size and filtration?


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

our setup was and will be different to you. for one its an indoor pond. secondly we use protein skimmer ans the main form of filtration so it does not really apply to you.
im assuming you will want to keep your rays in a glass tank rather than a shallow pond. 
All Freshwater rays grow to over 12" in Disc Diameter. Because of this the tank that you provide must be at least 24" wide & preferably 100 gallon capacity or greater to allow them the space they require. but go as big as possible. this will allow the rays to move around more and be more active.

A good filtration system is the key to keeping healthy rays. Always buy an oversized system (say 1.5 x your tank capacity or greater) to ensure that it will be man enough to handle the amount of waste they produce. I've used Eheim and Fluval external canister filters with all my fish (plus skimmers but that doestn apply to you). Air stones/wands although not a necessity seem to be appreciated but a power head or some means of manipulating the water is a definate requirement.

the pond we used to have was a 400g semi circle. it was only 18" tall. we wanted a large bottom surfce area to keep the rays in. when we first got our ray/s we kept them in a 125g tank just to check on them and see how they are doing. as in the pond there is no side viewing panel.

i also found some more good info on keeping rays healthy long term as hey are such a time consuming fish to keep. please read this carefully. it should give you more of an idea on how much work you need to put in.

Unfortunately most people starting out with stingrays, (including myself) usually end up losing their first ray and you can guarantee that 99% of the time it is due to the water quality in the tank. People should be aware of the work and the expense that needs to be put into keeping these fascinating creatures.
Stingrays are very sensitive to changes in the water chemistry, therefore it is essential that your tank has a suitable filtration system to maintain good water quality. An average filter that would normally be efficient in a tropical aquarium will be inadequate for a stingray aquarium. Due to their size and the amount of food they consume, rays produce more waste than your average tropical fish. I use Eheim external filtration systems in my tanks and have been more than satisfied with their performance.

If rays are subjected to elevated levels of ammonia or nitrate they soon become lethargic and stop feeding. A healthy ray will always be active and hungry, they spend the majority of their time scouring the bottom of the tank looking for food. If your stingray is spending a lot of the time hiding in the substrate and not feeding, then there's a good chance they are suffering from poor water quality. Therefore it is essential that you regulary check the water parameters by using a chemical test kit.

I carry out a 60% water change every 4-7 days to ensure that I keep the Nitrate to acceptable levels. Be warned that this task must be carried out continuously throughout the lifespan of the ray and they can live for over 20 years. 
I regulary use the following Aquarium Pharmaceutical products as I have found they are very safe and effective to use with stingrays (Stress Coat, Stress Zyme, Melafix). Certain products such as Ick treatments that contain copper & other medications that contain Malachite green may kill rays. Due to their sensitivity it is always wise to use only 50% of the recommended doseage when using any medication. 
Rock salt can be used as a treatment. It is useful to use to control fungus infections and to de-stress rays that have been exposed to poor water conditions or shipping stress. The recommended doseage is 1 tablespoon per gallon. I've had success using salt to de-stress two of my rays when I first aquired them but I would not recommend prolonged exposure to it. Perhaps 1 week or so at the most.

these are widely regarded as the optimum paras for rays to keep them healthy and thriving
Temperature - 78-80F
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 5ppm (preferably lower)
pH - 6.5-7.0


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## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

Good call on that good sir! I will also be using Eheim products as I too have found them to be superior. Your assumption of a glass tank are correct. was just looking online today at tanks and found a 240g 72x30x25 which seems to be a good size. On a side note I am not bold enough to start a SW setup at the moment. lol


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

i think a 240g should be good for a pair of rays. but as ive already stated try to find a tank which alos has sufficient width and lenght

motoro are one of the hardier specise but they are also are one of the bigger ones. just bare that in mind when choosing a ray


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## jharrison (Dec 7, 2004)

I used to have a pair of motoros. They are pretty hardy, not as tought to keep as everyone says. I had them in a 75G, which was ok at first, but after they hit 8" disk diameter, it was just too cramped. Most important thing is keeping up on water changes. 50% -80% weekly minimum. They are finicky eaters, but with some work they will take frozen shrimp with ease. I am by no means an expert, but kept mine for two years with little problems.


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## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

What actually happened to your rays?


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## jharrison (Dec 7, 2004)

I had marital problems and went through a divorce. I slacked off on water changes and feeding schedules and they died. I really didn't have as good of setup for them as I needed. Kept telling myself I was gonna upgrade, but never was able to. Someday I will pick some up again, when I can better care for them.


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## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

oh man sorry to hear that.


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## jharrison (Dec 7, 2004)

Yeah, it sucks that the rays died. As for the ex... good riddens!


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## Alex 22 (Jun 13, 2009)

Trigger lover said:


> ok this will take some time.
> first off i suggest you do alot of reading before you attempt to keep rays.
> my friend once kept some FW rays. i have not, but i have kept SW rays. and this summer am planning to set up a touch pool for 2-3 rays. so i do have experience.
> no because im too lazy to type it all up myself, im gonna copy and paste information for you instead. now this information is ones i have read myself and trust and know to be good information. so its not total random whatevr i could find copy nd pasting.
> ...


Some great info right there. I was about to post all this thanks..


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

65galhex said:


> wow thats awesome. where did u get all that info? what size tank did u keep ur ray in and how big was he?


I wrote that caresheet. It's a general guide for beginners. Stingrays are a lot of responsibility. I got out of keeping them after I lost my long-term pair of Leopoldi, but if you have any questions, feel free.


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## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

dracofish said:


> wow thats awesome. where did u get all that info? what size tank did u keep ur ray in and how big was he?


I wrote that caresheet. It's a general guide for beginners. Stingrays are a lot of responsibility. I got out of keeping them after I lost my long-term pair of Leopoldi, but if you have any questions, feel free.
[/quote]

I appreciate the write up. Thank you for that. I am still doing some logistical planning and I have decided to use my 150g for my rays instead of my rbp's. I like the 72x18x24 footprint better for the rays. its not as tall but deeper. I will prob go with a 125 for my 3 rbp's.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Even that tank would need to be upgraded in time. The smallest species (P. reticulata and P. hystrix)would need at least a 24" wide tank for life...and most other species (P. motoro, P. humerosa/orbignyi, etc.) need 36"+.


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## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

What size tank did you have for your rays? also what would be an ideal footprint and size for a motoro?


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

My Leos were still growing, so I had them in a 72" x 24" tank. If they hadn't of died (damn city water nuking the water supply with bleach!) I would have upgraded to a 48" wide tank.

For a Motoro for life, I'd say that in time you'd have to get a 36" - 48" wide tank. A smaller tank would last for a couple years, so you'd have time to upgrade. Motoros can reach a width of 18" - 24"+ in diameter, and that doesn't include the tail.


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## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

holy crap about the city water!!!!!! im from ct too, I hope my town doesnt nuke my water...


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

65galhex said:


> holy crap about the city water!!!!!! im from ct too, I hope my town doesnt nuke my water...


Yeah, I had them for over 5 years with never an issue of never having to use a dechlor for water changes and then last May the city decided to extra-chlorinate the water supply. I thought they were supposed to send out a notice before they do that stuff. Killed everything in the tank.


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## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

well that sucks big time. im sorry to hear about that. did you end up having to use a water conditioner at some point or what did you do?


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

65galhex said:


> well that sucks big time. im sorry to hear about that. did you end up having to use a water conditioner at some point or what did you do?


After they died I got out of Rays altogether. In the same tank I currently have a Silver Aro, Clown Knife, and a bunch of Cichlids.

Since I'm using the same filtration that I had with the Rays (2 Filstar 3's and 1 Marineland Multi-Stage (the big one)) I don't have to do water changes nearly as often as I did with the Rays. It was 75% twice a week with the Rays. Now I only have to do 25% once a week. I still don't use a conditioner since I'm not changing nearly as much water. But, I do keep some onhand.


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## 65galhex (Nov 5, 2008)

wow 75% 2x a week!!! thats crazy. is that bc they make a mess or is that because they need specific water params? ( that sounds dumb, but i dont know how else to say it)


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Rays create a lot of waste and they also need the best water possible.


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