# Is This A Serrasalmus Manueli?



## motoracer110

i was just searching online and saw this, if it is a manueli it might be the biggest one ive ever seen.


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## Uncle Jesse

Yup.


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## Smoke

Damn, can't wait till mine put on some size!


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## TRIG

wow, yea deff the largest one I've ever seen.


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## memento

Yep, a manueli...

not the biggest one I've seen though, but size always depends on the angle of the picture. Holding it in front of you and zooming in on it, makes it appear larger.


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## balluupnetme

Those r some huge mannies


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## motoracer110

memento said:


> Yep, a manueli...
> 
> not the biggest one I've seen though, but size always depends on the angle of the picture. Holding it in front of you and zooming in on it, makes it appear larger.










dang!!!!!! that would be awesome to have in my aquarium at that size


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## Da' Manster!

Well, as my good friend Central would say......"JESUS TAP DANCING, CHRIST"!!!!...those are some huge Mannys!...Excellent specimens there!..


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## CyberGenetics

My God what i would give for one of that size and color!!!!


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## Mr. Hannibal

memento said:


> Yep, a manueli...
> 
> not the biggest one I've seen though, but size always depends on the angle of the picture. Holding it in front of you and zooming in on it, makes it appear larger.


100% agree... some pics may cheat your eyes (especially when using wide-angle lenses)...


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## Red Sox Fanatic

Gorgeous Manny!!!!!


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## hastatus

Brazil species appear larger than Venezuela. Maybe because of Hugo Chavez (just kidding about Hugo) .


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## Mr. Hannibal

hastatus said:


> Brazil species appear larger than Venezuela. Maybe because of Hugo Chavez (just kidding about Hugo) .


It's possible brazilian Mannys are bigger but i'm not sure... i've heard of some HUGE Mannys in the Venezuelan amazon (southern Venezuela) but never seen one by myself... since nobody is (comercially) interested in piranha in this country noboby is interested in fishing for bigger specimens...


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## hastatus

Mr. Hannibal said:


> Brazil species appear larger than Venezuela. Maybe because of Hugo Chavez (just kidding about Hugo) .


It's possible brazilian Mannys are bigger but i'm not sure... i've heard of some HUGE Mannys in the Venezuelan amazon (southern Venezuela) but never seen one by myself... since nobody is (comercially) interested in piranha in this country noboby is interested in fishing for bigger specimens...
[/quote]
Well Daniel maybe you and Edouard need to get out there and catch some record holders


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## Mr. Hannibal

hastatus said:


> Brazil species appear larger than Venezuela. Maybe because of Hugo Chavez (just kidding about Hugo) .


It's possible brazilian Mannys are bigger but i'm not sure... i've heard of some HUGE Mannys in the Venezuelan amazon (southern Venezuela) but never seen one by myself... since nobody is (comercially) interested in piranha in this country noboby is interested in fishing for bigger specimens...
[/quote]
Well Daniel maybe you and Edouard need to get out there and catch some record holders








[/quote]

Well, it won't happen this year... I plan to visit Central Llanos (Guarico) next week and Western Llanos (Mantecal) (with Edouard) late this year... I'm also planning fishing at Guri and La Paragua (Bolivar) early next year but i'm not sure i will visit the venezuelan amazon (where people report the big Mannys) anytime soon... Maybe next year...


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## hastatus

Bolivar has some nice payara. Lucky you if you go near falls. Maybe you catch big catfish or Pristobrycon.


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## Mr. Hannibal

hastatus said:


> Bolivar has some nice payara. Lucky you if you go near falls. Maybe you catch big catfish or Pristobrycon.


Yeap, the world record on Payara comes from Uraima Falls (La Paragua river) close to where i'm going to fish early next year... Wish me luck


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## hastatus

Hey hope you get a record strike. Didn't know the big one came from there. Right on


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## Mr. Hannibal

... and Peacock Bass get up to 26lb at Guri and La Paragua...


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## hastatus

Yeah I've seen some monster photographs of peacock bass. Don't they also have barracuda?

Dientudos?


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## Mr. Hannibal

hastatus said:


> Yeah I've seen some monster photographs of peacock bass. Don't they also have barracuda?
> 
> Dientudos?


Peacock bass, hoplias, payara, pescada (corvina), piranha and catfish are the most common there...


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## hastatus

Mr. Hannibal said:


> Yeah I've seen some monster photographs of peacock bass. Don't they also have barracuda?
> 
> Dientudos?


Peacock bass, hoplias, payara, pescada (corvina), piranha and catfish are the most common there...
[/quote]
Hoplias = dientudos in Brazil. Is there a native name?


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## Mr. Hannibal

hastatus said:


> Yeah I've seen some monster photographs of peacock bass. Don't they also have barracuda?
> 
> Dientudos?


Peacock bass, hoplias, payara, pescada (corvina), piranha and catfish are the most common there...
[/quote]
Hoplias = dientudos in Brazil. Is there a native name?
[/quote]

Ohhh, i see, didn'i knew that... we call Hoplias "Guabina" (it means something like "slick") since their body is smooth and slippery...


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## hastatus

Mr. Hannibal said:


> Yeah I've seen some monster photographs of peacock bass. Don't they also have barracuda?
> 
> Dientudos?


Peacock bass, hoplias, payara, pescada (corvina), piranha and catfish are the most common there...
[/quote]
Hoplias = dientudos in Brazil. Is there a native name?
[/quote]

Ohhh, i see, didn'i knew that... we call Hoplias "Guabina" (it means something like "slick") since their body is smooth and slippery...








[/quote]
That would be a good name and description. I think in se Brazil they are pana mortador (piranha killer)


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## Smoke

Mr. Hannibal said:


> Yeah I've seen some monster photographs of peacock bass. Don't they also have barracuda?
> 
> Dientudos?


Peacock bass, hoplias, payara, pescada (corvina), piranha and catfish are the most common there...
[/quote]
Hoplias = dientudos in Brazil. Is there a native name?
[/quote]

Ohhh, i see, didn'i knew that... we call Hoplias "Guabina" (it means something like "slick") since their body is smooth and slippery...








[/quote]

I too grew up knowing "wolf fish" as Guabine... only recently I started calling Guabine wolf fish...


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## hastatus

Personally I prefer the native names over the dealer names if one wanted a common name.


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## locust

Xingu manny








Black water manny


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## Mr. Hannibal

Nice pics locust!


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## hastatus

Nice!


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## locust

hastatus said:


> Nice!


Got a fair few most havent seen before, big rhoms as well might just drip feed them..if you`re nice to me lol
Xingu


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## hastatus

locust said:


> Nice!


Got a fair few most havent seen before, big rhoms as well might just drip feed them..if you`re nice to me lol
Xingu
View attachment 203710

[/quote]
Idk, nowadays I just see fish nicely broiled on a plate with rice


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## locust

Im reading that Manueli this size are considered a bit of a pest in the Xingu, they`d rather hook up P. Bass


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## Mr. Hannibal

locust said:


> Im reading that Manueli this size are considered a bit of a pest in the Xingu, they`d rather hook up P. Bass
> 
> View attachment 203715
> 
> View attachment 203714
> 
> View attachment 203713


True... the same happens here in Venezuela when someone gets a huge Rhom instead a Peacock Bass or Payara... it's is considered a waste of time (and lures when damaged)...


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## Smoke

Amazing photos!


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## Piranha-Freak101

Yes those r manni's big ones at that !


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## hastatus

Mr. Hannibal said:


> Im reading that Manueli this size are considered a bit of a pest in the Xingu, they`d rather hook up P. Bass
> 
> View attachment 203715
> 
> View attachment 203714
> 
> View attachment 203713


True... the same happens here in Venezuela when someone gets a huge Rhom instead a Peacock Bass or Payara... it's is considered a waste of time (and lures when damaged)...








[/quote]
Doesn't help either when dams are built or caribes are artificially transplanted.


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## Piranha-Freak101

hastatus said:


> Im reading that Manueli this size are considered a bit of a pest in the Xingu, they`d rather hook up P. Bass
> 
> View attachment 203715
> 
> View attachment 203714
> 
> View attachment 203713


True... the same happens here in Venezuela when someone gets a huge Rhom instead a Peacock Bass or Payara... it's is considered a waste of time (and lures when damaged)...








[/quote]
Doesn't help either when dams are built or caribes are *artificially transplanted*.
[/quote]

what is that ?


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## hastatus

UltraKardas said:


> Im reading that Manueli this size are considered a bit of a pest in the Xingu, they`d rather hook up P. Bass
> 
> View attachment 203715
> 
> View attachment 203714
> 
> View attachment 203713


True... the same happens here in Venezuela when someone gets a huge Rhom instead a Peacock Bass or Payara... it's is considered a waste of time (and lures when damaged)...








[/quote]
Doesn't help either when dams are built or caribes are *artificially transplanted*.
[/quote]

what is that ?
[/quote]
meaning = putting a rhombeus in rio Sao Francisco where it doesn't belong naturally.

Or other transplanted species.

Artificial pertains to dam or other man-made construction


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## locust

Sorry these are from the Agua Boa ..a clear water








View attachment 203746
















Xingu


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## hastatus

locust said:


> Sorry these are from the Agua Boa ..a clear water
> View attachment 203745
> 
> 
> View attachment 203746
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> Xingu
> View attachment 203748


That xingu manueli is awesome!


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## Piranha-Freak101

hastatus said:


> Im reading that Manueli this size are considered a bit of a pest in the Xingu, they`d rather hook up P. Bass
> 
> View attachment 203715
> 
> View attachment 203714
> 
> View attachment 203713


True... the same happens here in Venezuela when someone gets a huge Rhom instead a Peacock Bass or Payara... it's is considered a waste of time (and lures when damaged)...








[/quote]
Doesn't help either when dams are built or caribes are *artificially transplanted*.
[/quote]

what is that ?
[/quote]
meaning = putting a rhombeus in rio Sao Francisco where it doesn't belong naturally.

Or other transplanted species.

Artificial pertains to dam or other man-made construction
[/quote]

Thanks,

humans always gotta run natures beauty huh


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## hastatus

Unfortunately, its like that in almost every country. Here in the U.S. is good example of things going terribly wrong. Xingu is next to be destroyed. Beautiful untouched fauna being destroyed and the native people uprooted. Just horrible.


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## Piranha-Freak101

Earth is gonna get tired of us "human" hopefully we dont go out like the dinosaurs lol


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## locust

is this now a "say goodbye to the Xingu" thread


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## Piranha-Freak101

The last pic looks bizzar


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## locust

UltraKardas said:


> The last pic looks bizzar


The "whiteness" you mean? Thats because its been dead a while.


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## hastatus

locust said:


> The last pic looks bizzar


The "whiteness" you mean? Thats because its been dead a while.
View attachment 203799

[/quote]
Plus the dorsum appears bit off and regenerated some time ago. Great photos! Thanks for sharing.


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## locust

hastatus said:


> The last pic looks bizzar


The "whiteness" you mean? Thats because its been dead a while.
View attachment 203799

[/quote]
Plus the dorsum appears bit off and regenerated some time ago. 
[/quote]

Ah yeah didnt notice that until you mentioned it .
Its a big mother of a rhom though, from a Xingu tributary, the other fish or the payara has been speared.


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## hastatus

locust said:


> The last pic looks bizzar


The "whiteness" you mean? Thats because its been dead a while.
View attachment 203799

[/quote]
Plus the dorsum appears bit off and regenerated some time ago. 
[/quote]

Ah yeah didnt notice that until you mentioned it .
Its a big mother of a rhom though, from a Xingu tributary, the other fish or the payara has been speared. 
View attachment 203806

[/quote]
I should pin this up. Great photos. Were any of the fish measured? Mr Hannibal (Daniel) is doing that on his fishing trip. Hope to get good data out of that.


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## Dolphinswin

It's weird no one as any of these monster mannys in tanks, yes im sure they are very hard to ship since there sensetivety... but you'd think someone could do it. BMpowers manny is the biggest one I know of, over 10".

PS, I was watching a show the other on piranhas and midwest lakes. They tested piranha in colder temperatures the lowest they could function in was high 50's.


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## MFNRyan

HOly smokes!! I would love to have any of those fish in my tank here at home! Although it would take a 500 gallon tank for them lol. Did you catch all those?? Your from england so I'm guessing you would of had to make a trip to get them?

How do they get the fish from South America to here without it dieing or anything like that?? If you knew Hannibal I would pay you some big bucks an cover the shipping to get me some of these huge specimen!!! I don't know how your money transfers to mine.. but I would make it well worth the while!! I'm sure there are legal sheilds and everything else that has to get around


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## memento

Dolphinswin said:


> PS, I was watching a show the other on piranhas and midwest lakes. They tested piranha in colder temperatures the lowest they could function in was high 50's.


You should read this page Dolphin


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## locust

hastatus said:


> The last pic looks bizzar


The "whiteness" you mean? Thats because its been dead a while.
View attachment 203799

[/quote]
Plus the dorsum appears bit off and regenerated some time ago. 
[/quote]

Ah yeah didnt notice that until you mentioned it .
Its a big mother of a rhom though, from a Xingu tributary, the other fish or the payara has been speared. 
View attachment 203806

[/quote]
I should pin this up. Great photos. Were any of the fish measured? Mr Hannibal (Daniel) is doing that on his fishing trip. Hope to get good data out of that.
[/quote]

Not measured to my knowledge , i doubt theres much interest as the last ones are speared for sport. All pics not mine but taken from image searching Br.com

Spearfishing payara and rhom Rio Tocantins:-

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=TnYt9XFsjiM


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## Smoke

locust said:


> is this now a "say goodbye to the Xingu" thread
> 
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Absolutely Amazing! Reminds me why the Manny is my #1.

NubSmoke actually has the biggest one in captivity that I've seen


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## locust

Manueli fishing..sorry dont know how to embed here.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-LqcV896-9s



Smoke said:


> is this now a "say goodbye to the Xingu" thread
> 
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Absolutely Amazing! Reminds me why the Manny is my #1.

NubSmoke actually has the biggest one in captivity that I've seen








[/quote]
Yes that fish came in large..there are two large specimens on our UK forum 11 ins and 12 ins, both grown from small sizes.


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## Smoke

> Yes that fish came in large..there are two large specimens on our UK forum 11 ins and 12 ins, both grown from small sizes.


Yeah I think I've seen one of the Mannie's you are referring to (12") on YouTube... is that the same Manny that also smashed his jaw? I've seen a few larger Mannies on YouTube with the "smashed jaw"... makes me a bit scared when I am interacting with my lil guys...









Freakin awesome video man! Don't hold back, keep these coming if you got em


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## locust

Spear fishing in the Tocantins, rhom, paraya


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## hastatus

locust said:


> is this now a "say goodbye to the Xingu" thread
> 
> View attachment 203789
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Absolutely Amazing! Reminds me why the Manny is my #1.

NubSmoke actually has the biggest one in captivity that I've seen








[/quote]
Yes that fish came in large..there are two large specimens on our UK forum 11 ins and 12 ins, both grown from small sizes.
[/quote]
Guys enjoying themselves.


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## Smoke

It's like a first person shooter game...

Although cool to see underwater P's swimming, I don't like the idea of spearing them unless they are meant to be food... which, could very well be the case. Thanks for sharing man, you're on a roll!


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## hastatus

My problem with these type of videos on spear fishing, you don't know if they are indiscriminately killing fish. Just unnerved me if the fish are being wasted.



Smoke said:


> It's like a first person shooter game...
> 
> Although cool to see underwater P's swimming, I don't like the idea of spearing them unless they are meant to be food... which, could very well be the case. Thanks for sharing man, you're on a roll!


I was posting my remarks when you posted yours. I see we share same view.


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## locust

^From what i can understand theres a lot of condemnation of the spearfishing ...maybe from those using fairer methods and having a catch and release policy 
which is in place in sporting sections of the rivers in Brazil. There are also quotas for fish taken for food.
Rio ***** Manueli


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## hastatus

locust said:


> ^From what i can understand theres a lot of condemnation of the spearfishing ...maybe from those using fairer methods and having a catch and release policy
> which is in place in sporting sections of the rivers in Brazil. There are also quotas for fish taken for food.
> Rio ***** Manueli
> View attachment 203807


Have to agree don't see much sport in spear fishing, unless your in a canoe spearing for your food. This underwater stuff just doesn't cut it. As for catch and release. Yes, renewable resource if you don't intend to eat it.


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## Smoke

That Rio ***** Manny looks fierce! I never see any of those for sale in the hobby.


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## locust

Smoke said:


> That Rio ***** Manny looks fierce! I never see any of those for sale in the hobby.


Thats because you dont live in Japan


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## Smoke

My largest Manueli (~7-8") is truly a fast fish, and when I got him he was freshly imported so he was "wild". He is constantly in the middle swimming against the current... When he gets startled, he will dart around so fast that makes him truly look like a wild river fish.

I also saw the reference on OPEFE regarding medium to slow river channels... Maybe the smaller Manueli is found in calmer waters (juvenile), and the bigger ones go into the fast flowing waters?



locust said:


> That Rio ***** Manny looks fierce! I never see any of those for sale in the hobby.


Thats because you dont live in Japan
View attachment 203809

[/quote]

Wow! Check out the wicked humeral spike on that beast! Those folks in Japan sure are lucky for their variety.


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## locust

^My thoughts on this tell me that Manueli are a more "specialised " fish than rhoms..ie less adaptable .are Manueli found in still waters as rhoms are?..no to my knowledge. 
Why do most Manueli grown on from the small sizes they`re bought at ( although ..compared to rhoms.. they`re fast growers) do they not retain the wild seen head to body shape ratio ..ie in captivity the body grows out leaving the head looking stunted?..imo they need fast flowing water that is as pure as nature can provide


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## Smoke

locust said:


> ^My thoughts on this tell me that Manueli are a more "specialised " fish than rhoms..ie less adaptable .are Manueli found in still waters as rhoms are?..no to my knowledge.
> Why do most Manueli grown on from the small sizes they`re bought at ( although ..compared to rhoms.. they`re fast growers) do they not retain the wild seen head to body shape ratio ..ie in captivity the body grows out leaving the head looking stunted?..imo they need fast flowing water that is as pure as nature can provide


I noticed that even juveniles can look different. I have 2 that have a more rounded snout with feint humeral spots which are higher up behind the gill area with a more hooked anal fin, and I have 2 that don't and look a bit wider (in body) with darker and longer humeral spots... In addition, the 2 that looks like a more rounded snout appear a bit smaller and rounder in shape. Who knows, maybe when they all grow out they all look the same...


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## hastatus

You guys made me go back and look at the manueli page. River cited is for Venezuela not the xingu in Brazil.

I don't have much data on Brazil's manueli other than deep water which by itself suggests strong current. In Oregon we have calm surface water but deep water it can drown you from fast current.


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## Smoke

2 of mine came from Belem... not sure about the other 2...


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## hastatus

locust said:


> ^My thoughts on this tell me that Manueli are a more "specialised " fish than rhoms..ie less adaptable .are Manueli found in still waters as rhoms are?..no to my knowledge.
> Why do most Manueli grown on from the small sizes they`re bought at ( although ..compared to rhoms.. they`re fast growers) do they not retain the wild seen head to body shape ratio ..ie in captivity the body grows out leaving the head looking stunted?..imo they need fast flowing water that is as pure as nature can provide


According to Machado-Allison they are in lagoons and other calmer areas. But don't think same applies to Brazil. In Brazil they were historically S.humeralis. A misnomer by collectors who are unable to distinguish juveniles from Pristobrycon.


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## locust

hastatus said:


> You guys made me go back and look at the manueli page. River cited is for Venezuela not the xingu in Brazil.
> 
> I don't have much data on Brazil's manueli other than deep water which by itself suggests strong current. In Oregon we have calm surface water but deep water it can drown you from fast current.


Fair enough, that should be made clearer for hobbyists keeping manueli in 5 ft of water ( or less) using what is stated on OPEFE it as a reference i think.


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## hastatus

Do if one goes by that then the water conditions are correct by Locust.



locust said:


> You guys made me go back and look at the manueli page. River cited is for Venezuela not the xingu in Brazil.
> 
> I don't have much data on Brazil's manueli other than deep water which by itself suggests strong current. In Oregon we have calm surface water but deep water it can drown you from fast current.


Fair enough, that should be made clearer for hobbyists keeping manueli in 5 ft of water ( or less) using what is stated on OPEFE it as a reference i think.
[/quote]
I can do that :Laugh:


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## locust

hastatus said:


> ^My thoughts on this tell me that Manueli are a more "specialised " fish than rhoms..ie less adaptable .are Manueli found in still waters as rhoms are?..no to my knowledge.
> Why do most Manueli grown on from the small sizes they`re bought at ( although ..compared to rhoms.. they`re fast growers) do they not retain the wild seen head to body shape ratio ..ie in captivity the body grows out leaving the head looking stunted?..imo they need fast flowing water that is as pure as nature can provide


According to Machado-Allison they are in lagoons and other calmer areas. But don't think same applies to Brazil. In Brazil they were historically S.humeralis. A misnomer by collectors who are unable to distinguish juveniles from Pristobrycon.
[/quote]

Lol according to me a manny is a manny no matter where its caught or imported from..how can it be possible that a Manueli from Venezeula grows to a smaller size than a Manueli from Brazil as is stated on OPEFE??


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## hastatus

locust said:


> ^My thoughts on this tell me that Manueli are a more "specialised " fish than rhoms..ie less adaptable .are Manueli found in still waters as rhoms are?..no to my knowledge.
> Why do most Manueli grown on from the small sizes they`re bought at ( although ..compared to rhoms.. they`re fast growers) do they not retain the wild seen head to body shape ratio ..ie in captivity the body grows out leaving the head looking stunted?..imo they need fast flowing water that is as pure as nature can provide


According to Machado-Allison they are in lagoons and other calmer areas. But don't think same applies to Brazil. In Brazil they were historically S.humeralis. A misnomer by collectors who are unable to distinguish juveniles from Pristobrycon.
[/quote]

Lol according to me a manny is a manny no matter where its caught or imported from..how can it be possible that a Manueli from Venezeula grows to a smaller size than a Manueli from Brazil as is stated on OPEFE??
[/quote]
Georgaphy and where the equator is. Plus measurements from wild caught.

Updated the information at OPEFE on S. manueli.

Remember this, animals near or on the equator tend to be larger than in other areas.


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## locust

[/quote]

Remember this, animals near or on the equator tend to be larger than in other areas.
[/quote]

not quite so.. dont pygmies live nearer the equator?


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## hastatus

Well yes....sorry had to stop laughing so hard. But they are unique tribe of people and disappearing. Maybe cause they are too short (just kidding.) Don't know their history. Could be they migrated. Hell I don't know. I study fish not humans, lmao.


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## locust

lol well u started it/going on about about heat and big things that are really small, Frank takes the piss out of pygmies..now hes really cool


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## memento

locust said:


> Lol according to me a manny is a manny no matter where its caught or imported from..how can it be possible that a Manueli from Venezeula grows to a smaller size than a Manueli from Brazil as is stated on OPEFE??


Keep in mind some believe S.gouldingi could be S.manueli as well, just from different waters. If geographical populations are a possibility and water parameters are an influence on morphology, sizes can be different as well.


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## hastatus

locust said:


> Lol according to me a manny is a manny no matter where its caught or imported from..how can it be possible that a Manueli from Venezeula grows to a smaller size than a Manueli from Brazil as is stated on OPEFE??


Keep in mind some believe S.gouldingi could be S.manueli as well, just from different waters. If geographical populations are a possibility and water parameters are an influence on morphology, sizes can be different as well.
[/quote]
Well, i should have said, larger in terms of a few mm's. not larger in size of goliath, the Philistine.


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## Smoke

Just read the update


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## hastatus

Smoke said:


> Just read the update


 The information at OPEFE is only as good as the people that help with it. Not able to do it by myself anymore. So getting current information is always a consideration on species. Particularly the changes that are happening with water chemistry and man made incursions.


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## locust

memento said:


> Lol according to me a manny is a manny no matter where its caught or imported from..how can it be possible that a Manueli from Venezeula grows to a smaller size than a Manueli from Brazil as is stated on OPEFE??


Keep in mind some believe S.gouldingi could be S.manueli as well, just from different waters. If geographical populations are a possibility and water parameters are an influence on morphology, sizes can be different as well.
[/quote]

Sorry but a clear case of a scientist talking absolute rubbish.stop trying to create species that dont exist..common sense should prevail over "data received"


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## hastatus

locust said:


> Lol according to me a manny is a manny no matter where its caught or imported from..how can it be possible that a Manueli from Venezeula grows to a smaller size than a Manueli from Brazil as is stated on OPEFE??


Keep in mind some believe S.gouldingi could be S.manueli as well, just from different waters. If geographical populations are a possibility and water parameters are an influence on morphology, sizes can be different as well.
[/quote]

Sorry but a clear case of a scientist talking absolute rubbish.stop trying to create species that dont exist..common sense should prevail over "data received"
[/quote]
I heard the same via email by a PhD graduate working on Smanueli and Sgouldingi a few years ago. They being similar at juvenile. But that don't amount to much in the grander scheme.


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## locust

Maybe scientists are just trying to create something that doesnt already exist and what for ..leave it alone ? in other words who the f*ck cares what name the scientists gives it right?


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## hastatus

locust said:


> Maybe scientists are just trying to create something that doesnt already exist and what for ..leave it alone ? in other words who the f*ck cares what name the scientists gives it right?


I do


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## locust

hastatus said:


> Maybe scientists are just trying to create something that doesnt already exist and what for ..leave it alone ? in other words who the f*ck cares what name the scientists gives it right?


I do








[/quote]Great ..if u want to create S..Humaralis out of nothing then i guess hobbyiests must adhere?


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## hastatus

locust said:


> Maybe scientists are just trying to create something that doesnt already exist and what for ..leave it alone ? in other words who the f*ck cares what name the scientists gives it right?


I do








[/quote]Great ..if u want to create S..Humaralis out of nothing then i guess hobbyiests must adhere?
[/quote]
What are you reading? I think you misunderstood.

" In Brazil they were historically S.humeralis. A misnomer by collectors who are unable to distinguish juveniles from Pristobrycon."

Is that what you read? That is correct. But S.humeralis is a Pristobrycon not a Serrasalmus. Also collectors were going by old Axelrod books.

That's were the humeralis name was misused. Its not the correct name for xingu manueli.


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## locust

hastatus said:


> Maybe scientists are just trying to create something that doesnt already exist and what for ..leave it alone ? in other words who the f*ck cares what name the scientists gives it right?


I do








[/quote]Great ..if u want to create S..Humaralis out of nothing then i guess hobbyiests must adhere?
[/quote]
What are you reading? I think you misunderstood.

" In Brazil they were historically S.humeralis. A misnomer by collectors who are unable to distinguish juveniles from Pristobrycon."

Is that what you read? That is correct. But S.humeralis is a Pristobrycon not a Serrasalmus. Also collectors were going by old Axelrod books.

That's were the humeralis name was misused. Its not the correct name for xingu manueli.
[/quote]
So S.Humaralis doesnt exist..as an adult specimen anyway?


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## hastatus

locust said:


> Maybe scientists are just trying to create something that doesnt already exist and what for ..leave it alone ? in other words who the f*ck cares what name the scientists gives it right?


I do








[/quote]Great ..if u want to create S..Humaralis out of nothing then i guess hobbyiests must adhere?
[/quote]
What are you reading? I think you misunderstood.

" In Brazil they were historically S.humeralis. A misnomer by collectors who are unable to distinguish juveniles from Pristobrycon."

Is that what you read? That is correct. But S.humeralis is a Pristobrycon not a Serrasalmus. Also collectors were going by old Axelrod books.

That's were the humeralis name was misused. Its not the correct name for xingu manueli.
[/quote]
So S.Humaralis doesnt exist..as an adult specimen anyway?
[/quote]
It exists in literature and old descriptions. But I've never seen a live one. Jegu has a photo of one in his descriptions, but I'm not convinced because of so many other Pristobrycon that are similar. French have a habit of resurrecting old names based on obscure description. S maculatus is a good example of such a critter.


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## MFNRyan

I want one of the brazil manny's... that thing looks so freakin awesome!!! I wonder if George can catch me one


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> I want one of the brazil manny's... that thing looks so freakin awesome!!! I wonder if George can catch me one


 He's caught them before. Don't see why he couldnt.


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## Smoke

RedBelly11 said:


> I want one of the brazil manny's... that thing looks so freakin awesome!!! I wonder if George can catch me one


What makes you think you don't have one already? Chances are, any Mannies available from vendors today are from Brazil. Either ways, G is a good one to talk to for finding any "hard to find" P species. Currently Aquascapeonline has Mannies, so you can also ask them where they came from (if they know).


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## hastatus

Smoke said:


> I want one of the brazil manny's... that thing looks so freakin awesome!!! I wonder if George can catch me one


What makes you think you don't have one already? Chances are, any Mannies available from vendors today are from Brazil. Either ways, G is a good one to talk to for finding any "hard to find" P species. Currently Aquascapeonline has Mannies, so you can also ask them where they came from (if they know).
[/quote]
Pedro does go to SA to get his fish. I'm sure he's as qualified as George.


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## memento

locust said:


> Maybe scientists are just trying to create something that doesnt already exist and what for ..leave it alone ? in other words who the f*ck cares what name the scientists gives it right?


Not a case of trying to create something new, but trying to figure out if something allready "existing" isn't actually another species.
Just like the maculatus - spilopleura research.


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## hastatus

memento said:


> Maybe scientists are just trying to create something that doesnt already exist and what for ..leave it alone ? in other words who the f*ck cares what name the scientists gives it right?


Not a case of trying to create something new, but trying to figure out if something allready "existing" isn't actually another species.
Just like the maculatus - spilopleura research.
[/quote]
The problem you cite has merit. However, species naming is only as good as the person doing it. Things are arbitrarily overlooked (maculatus v spilopleura) . Poor historical descriptions. Most during young expeditions of the amazon. Explorer/scientist had no idea how vast diversity of fauna. Crap? Hardly in that period. But scientist because the nature of the beast must publish or vanish. Some of it rushed.

Then you have the age of the amazon. Flooding, eggs changing DNA because of Ph. Then you have clues of interbreeding. Cases of species landlocked then becoming its own species over the millennium.

Overlap of gouldingi and manueli? Maybe but its a question that won't be answered today. Maybe never. So you go by the present standing and avoid the noise. Otherwise it will clutter your thinking.


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## locust

^^Yes, sorry bout that. More Manueli


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## hastatus

locust said:


> ^^Yes, sorry bout that. More Manueli
> 
> View attachment 203911
> 
> 
> View attachment 203912
> 
> 
> View attachment 203913
> 
> 
> View attachment 203914


That's what I'm talking about







if only hobbyist could see the potential of letting their fish grow out.


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## locust

^ Why are hobbyists not growing their fish out i dont understand the comment?


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## hastatus

locust said:


> ^ Why are hobbyists not growing their fish out i dont understand the comment?


Just look around fury. The fact I suggest bigger tanks or longevity turns some members off. Even had one tell they didn't plan to keep their piranha for any longer than 3 years. Or they don't want huge fish just huge shoals.


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## Smoke

locust said:


> ^^Yes, sorry bout that. More Manueli
> 
> View attachment 203911
> 
> 
> View attachment 203912
> 
> 
> View attachment 203913
> 
> 
> View attachment 203914












Everytime I see pics of these huge Mannies I keep running back to my little guys and stare at them in fascination. I read another hobbyist thread who documented the growth of his juvie manueli... It took several years, but after the many years, the Manueli did put on some size...

So although they may look small, they still have the growth potential I believe... if given the right conditions.

Here's the thread:
http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?/topic/181173-growth-progression-of-a-manueli/page__p__2335423__hl__manueli__fromsearch__1#entry2335423


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## hastatus

All it takes for the most part is sizes aquarium and constant water changes. Read up on opefe rhombeus species. Great info by Frank Glennon.


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## locust

Right , but those fish will be sold on..so they`re still being grown out ...just somewhere else. 
I have a hobbyists request..can a scientist determine the age of a typical wild caught Manueli or Rhombeus specimen at say 16ins?


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## hastatus

locust said:


> Right , but those fish will be sold on..so they`re still being grown out ...just somewhere else.
> I have a hobbyists request..can a scientist determine the age of a typical wild caught Manueli or Rhombeus specimen at say 16ins?


Not without killing it and removing the inner ear.


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## TheCableGuy

hastatus said:


> Right , but those fish will be sold on..so they`re still being grown out ...just somewhere else.
> I have a hobbyists request..can a scientist determine the age of a typical wild caught Manueli or Rhombeus specimen at say 16ins?


Not without killing it and removing the inner ear.
[/quote]

If I'm not mistaken, they can also tell what rivers they've been in from calcium deposits in the inner ear.


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## locust

If i had the knowhow as a scientist plus the resources to acquire a dead fish of that size from the wild that would be my burning question .
So Lucien can still determine the age of the 12ins rhom that is now a skeleton?


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## hastatus

TheCableGuy said:


> Right , but those fish will be sold on..so they`re still being grown out ...just somewhere else.
> I have a hobbyists request..can a scientist determine the age of a typical wild caught Manueli or Rhombeus specimen at say 16ins?


Not without killing it and removing the inner ear.
[/quote]

If I'm not mistaken, they can also tell what rivers they've been in from calcium deposits in the inner ear.
[/quote]
I don't know about that, havent kept up. However there are clues in sexual dimorphism from male v female growth rate.


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## Smoke

hastatus said:


> Right , but those fish will be sold on..so they`re still being grown out ...just somewhere else.
> I have a hobbyists request..can a scientist determine the age of a typical wild caught Manueli or Rhombeus specimen at say 16ins?


Not without killing it and removing the inner ear.
[/quote]

If I'm not mistaken, they can also tell what rivers they've been in from calcium deposits in the inner ear.
[/quote]
I don't know about that, havent kept up. However there are clues in sexual dimorphism from male v female growth rate.
[/quote]

Female grows faster?


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## hastatus

locust said:


> If i had the knowhow as a scientist plus the resources to acquire a dead fish of that size from the wild that would be my burning question .
> So Lucien can still determine the age of the 12ins rhom that is now a skeleton?


He might be able to if had a dremel saw. He'd have to slice it open and with a stereo scope (preferable) count the rings. That should give him a good age.

Meaning sawing the otolith.


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## hastatus

Smoke said:


> Right , but those fish will be sold on..so they`re still being grown out ...just somewhere else.
> I have a hobbyists request..can a scientist determine the age of a typical wild caught Manueli or Rhombeus specimen at say 16ins?


Not without killing it and removing the inner ear.
[/quote]

If I'm not mistaken, they can also tell what rivers they've been in from calcium deposits in the inner ear.
[/quote]
I don't know about that, havent kept up. However there are clues in sexual dimorphism from male v female growth rate.
[/quote]

Female grows faster?
[/quote]
In piranhas yes in the first year. Then they level off.


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## locust

In theory it would make sense that the removal of hormone ..or the fishes scent of its self in the water by frequent water changes would lead to a more "natural" growth rate as seen in the wild..i agree


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## hastatus

locust said:


> In theory it would make sense that the removal of hormone ..or the fishes scent of its self in the water by frequent water changes would lead to a more "natural" growth rate as seen in the wild..i agree


found this on Google about otolith: http://www.marinebiodiversity.ca/otolith/english/determine.htm


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## locust

Smoke said:


> 2 of mine came from Belem... not sure about the other 2...


Belem is where they maybe exported from..not necessarily where they`re caught


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## hastatus

locust said:


> 2 of mine came from Belem... not sure about the other 2...


Belem is where they maybe exported from..not necessarily where they`re caught
[/quote]
If I remember correctly Belem is halfway house to Lima Peru. That's according to my experts is where piranha species get mixed up during inspection out of country.


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## Smoke

locust said:


> 2 of mine came from Belem... not sure about the other 2...


Belem is where they maybe exported from..not necessarily where they`re caught
[/quote]

Thats a good point, but increases likeliness of being from Brazil though right?


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## locust

hastatus said:


> In theory it would make sense that the removal of hormone ..or the fishes scent of its self in the water by frequent water changes would lead to a more "natural" growth rate as seen in the wild..i agree


found this on Google about otolith: http://www.marinebio...h/determine.htm
[/quote]

What is an otolith?


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## hastatus

Smoke said:


> 2 of mine came from Belem... not sure about the other 2...


Belem is where they maybe exported from..not necessarily where they`re caught
[/quote]

Thats a good point, but increases likeliness of being from Brazil though right?
[/quote]
I would say not necessarily since Lima like I said is final destination out of SA.


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## Smoke

Mannie's aren't from Peru though, right?


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## locust

Smoke said:


> Mannie's aren't from Peru though, right?


Correct..il find out from my local piranha importer of Brazil fish exactly where they`re imported from..and i guarantee they`re exported from Brazil


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## memento

An otolith is a bone inside the inner ear Chris, humans have 'm too.
And yes, with a microtome I could prabably slice one and have a look at it under the stereomicroscope and count the growth rings.

So could anyone I guess, if we just knew where to find the otolith. Searching for it would probably destroy my entire skull so I'm not going to give it a try this time


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## hastatus

memento said:


> An otolith is a bone inside the inner ear Chris, humans have 'm too.
> And yes, with a microtome I could prabably slice one and have a look at it under the stereomicroscope and count the growth rings.
> 
> So could anyone I guess, if we just knew where to find the otolith. Searching for it would probably destroy my entire skull so I'm not going to give it a try this time


Not hard to find. Do need to give you another diagram?


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## memento

hastatus said:


> Not hard to find. Do need to give you another diagram?


Laugh as much as you like, but remember this next time you need your car fixed... give it to someone who has never seen an engine before and tell 'm there's nothing to learn with a manual


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## hastatus

memento said:


> Not hard to find. Do need to give you another diagram?


Laugh as much as you like, but remember this next time you need your car fixed... give it to someone who has never seen an engine before and tell 'm there's nothing to learn with a manual








[/quote]
Calm down there junior rocketeer

















Now find it. Remember, its called an "inner ear".

Going to bed. I'm sure your just getting home. Later~


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## memento

A next assignment even before I finished my skeleton ?









I'll have a look for it later on, first trying to finish the skeleton itself. Have a good night, I just woke up two hours ago


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## hastatus

memento said:


> A next assignment even before I finished my skeleton ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll have a look for it later on, first trying to finish the skeleton itself. Have a good night, I just woke up two hours ago


By the way there junior, a mechanical engineer wrote the manual. It didn't write itself. Same with fish bones. An ichthyologist named the bones and put it together. Didn't happen by itself.. Jeeez kids.


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## memento

Uhhh I dó think the bones were allready put together before an ichtyologist named them... evolution made that part happen









But point taken.

So far I liked the puzzle though, and thanks for the help


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## hastatus

memento said:


> Uhhh I dó think the bones were allready put together before an ichtyologist named them... evolution made that part happen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But point taken.
> 
> So far I liked the puzzle though, and thanks for the help


You're welcome.


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## piranhawill

memento said:


> Yep, a manueli...
> 
> not the biggest one I've seen though, but size always depends on the angle of the picture. Holding it in front of you and zooming in on it, makes it appear larger.


that picture looks photoshopped


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## Smoke

^ wouldn't be surprised. Photoshop is one of the most popular photo editing software available...


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