# Most Powerful Piranha



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

A lot of questions on other forums have asked the question incorrectly. What is the "most aggressive" piranha or what is the meanest piranha? It seems to me that for better or for worse there is an unanswered but not unanswerable question out there. What is the most powerful piranha? I have heard a littany of anecdotes about rhoms either being unbeatable or wimps. Likewise anecdotes about elongatus being the most aggressive piranha but being killed by geryi, etc. Other speculation that pygo jaw strength is inherrently stronger than serras. It seems to that status, i.e. who is the baddest piranha out there is what people are looking for. And that doesn't mean the most aggressive and it doesn't mean the largest. It means simply that at maturity in a head to head, which species of piranha is the most powerful, i.e. combining size and aggression, would come out on top. Piraya? Maybe. Manuelis and rhoms get pretty good size too. Elongatus are aggressive but are limited to 12" so how can they be the baddest, most powerful piranha. Beautiful fish. But if we cut to the chase, the "it depends on the individual fish" isn't really a satisfying answer. And given what we know about the maximum size of a piranha species and the aggression of that species, it doesn't seem like that diffcult a question to answer. Nor do I claim to. But seems like we are talking about Caribes, rhoms, pirayas, manuellis and not elongatus, natteri, hollandi, etc. Thoughts?


----------



## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)

Im the baddest .....................


----------



## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

Right, I've quoted the two parts of what you wrote that I think get your point across and answered why IMO you are wrong.



Lumpsack said:


> But if we cut to the chase, the "it depends on the individual fish" isn't really a satisfying answer.


Well thats the only answer there is that is correct. As you might get one piraya that is a mean mofo, and another that is just a softie!



> And given what we know about the maximum size of a piranha species and the aggression of that species, it doesn't seem like that diffcult a question to answer. Nor do I claim to. But seems like we are talking about Caribes, rhoms, pirayas, manuellis and not elongatus, natteri, hollandi, etc. Thoughts?


There are three points I would like to make regarding this. The first one is that yes we know their maximum sizes, but how often do they reach this. And how often for the smaller species do they exceed this. Just because we havent seen an 18" Elong doesnt mean it doesnt exist in the wild.

The second is why is size anything to do with it? Is the largest human in the world the strongest and hardest? Sometimes it pays to be small + quicker than the largest but slower!

And lastly...you could find the largest Piranha out there and it could be the softest one around. I mean look at P-Kings piraya that is 19/20", that is living with 5-6" pirayas without attacking them. Same goes for a number of large rhoms that dont mind certain tank mates.


----------



## fury (Nov 30, 2003)

unless piranhas are scientificly studied in the same form as they study sharks,insects excreta excreta

we will never know..

there is an answer to this question.. we just don't know it yet..


----------



## SERRAPYGO (Feb 4, 2003)

Pound for pound caribas get my vote for jaw pressure and body strength.


----------



## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

my elong didnt get smoked by my geryi if thats what you're talking about. and there was 4 geryi to 1 elong, of course he got beat up. now hes in a 450 wih pygos 1 being 19" and is fine.
wes


----------



## The Predator (Sep 28, 2005)

rhoms


----------



## mylesc99 (Sep 5, 2005)

Hopefully science will research this subject...


----------



## rbps_are_lame (Oct 11, 2005)

My first post on this site was actually a indirect question to this. Thats why I named the topic "FIghting Piranha" and subtitle "who has/is (i forget) the alpha piranha" or something like that. I want some BADASS fish.. I like piranhas because they are badass. I like piranhas because they are somewhat known to be killers.

I agree. "It depends on the individual fish" is the MOST BULLSHIT answer.. Yes, different fish have differnt personalities, but the question we are asking without having to be technical is "given that we have the alpha fish of all piranha species, which would prevail as the winner?" I'm sorry to be a newb calling a somewhat pro a newb, but if you cant answer this with a high confidence level, you are a newb. All the taking care of fish, etc, etc, is just the fact taht you read a lot on it, but if you cant atleast theorize the fish, it just means you dont truly understand the fish.

and... Does size matter? HELL F*CKING yes it does. Why the hell do we have weight divisions for our fighting sports?

The next question here would be "Who are better fighters? Blacks or Whites?" This is in the favor of the "personality of the individual fish" etc. What defeats this is the fact that there are actual physical characteristics that define species and for humans, we are one species. Sapien. (^_^) Do you know where this argument leads to? Which fighting style best which? It's almost like rock scissor paper. It has to be either "rock scissor paper" or "1 winner."

So the question, and please someone here be able to atleast give their opinions/reasonings for the answer to this, is "Given that you have unlimited resources and are able to pick the best fighters from each species, which one would win?"

This is also hard because its a lot to think about. There are a lot of species. Knock some off and think about it. If you are a piranha pro, you should be able to make some possible answers.

SOrry, I'm a bit buzzed, unhappy, and tired.

Im gonna knock out in about 5 minutes. bye.


----------



## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

rbps_are_lame said:


> My first post on this site was actually a indirect question to this. Thats why I named the topic "FIghting Piranha" and subtitle "who has/is (i forget) the alpha piranha" or something like that. I want some BADASS fish.. I like piranhas because they are badass. I like piranhas because they are somewhat known to be killers.
> 
> I agree. "It depends on the individual fish" is the MOST BULLSHIT answer.. Yes, different fish have differnt personalities, but the question we are asking without having to be technical is "given that we have the alpha fish of all piranha species, which would prevail as the winner?" I'm sorry to be a newb calling a somewhat pro a newb, but if you cant answer this with a high confidence level, you are a newb. All the taking care of fish, etc, etc, is just the fact taht you read a lot on it, but if you cant atleast theorize the fish, it just means you dont truly understand the fish.
> 
> ...


Seriously, you come on this forum having owned a few red bellies for a few months and knowing nothing about Piranhas spouting off that there has to be an answer. And calling experienced members newbies as they cant give you the answer you are looking for.

The simple answer is this. All piranhas are different, not just rhoms compared to elongs but also within each type. You cannot generalise them and say 'oh this piranha is harder than that' its impossible to say.

If you want to try and say which is more aggressive / harder / whatever then go ahead and try. But it isnt going to be accurate. Simple as!


----------



## traumatic (Jan 29, 2003)

w/ piranha you are basically playing w/ a ticking time bomb. One p can be less aggressive than another, and still bite it and mame it. Really you have to understand what a p is capable of w/ those teeth irrigardless of size or aggression. Of course territory is a factor to be considered in the home aquarium. Piranha aren't for people who just want BADASS fighting fish.

Serras grow up being fin eaters and don't eat whole small fish until they are full grown. Even then they are ambush predators, mostly lying in wait until an unsususpecting fish swims by then biting it's tail off.

Pygos scavenge for week or dead animals, also eating fruit and nuts. They have the sharp teeth to bite off and also gulp food down in chunks to make sure their meal doesn't get stolen by another p.



rbps_are_lame said:


> My first post on this site was actually a indirect question to this. Thats why I named the topic "FIghting Piranha" and subtitle "who has/is (i forget) the alpha piranha" or something like that. I want some BADASS fish.. I like piranhas because they are badass. I like piranhas because they are somewhat known to be killers.
> 
> I agree. "It depends on the individual fish" is the MOST BULLSHIT answer.. Yes, different fish have differnt personalities, but the question we are asking without having to be technical is "given that we have the alpha fish of all piranha species, which would prevail as the winner?" I'm sorry to be a newb calling a somewhat pro a newb, but if you cant answer this with a high confidence level, you are a newb. All the taking care of fish, etc, etc, is just the fact taht you read a lot on it, but if you cant atleast theorize the fish, it just means you dont truly understand the fish.
> 
> ...


your post is niave and unintelligable.


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

Thank you for all of your responses. Craig, thank you especially. You make some good points. I think we can agree to disagree that it all comes down to the individual fish. While I agree that the individual specimen may have some variation, all species are not created equal when it comes to the attributes that make a piranha powerful. I think in all seriousness we don't know the answer. I'm intrigued right now by the paraya. Several reasons why.

1. Obviously, it's the largest of the pygos. And other things being equal, yes size matters.

2. The pygo jaw strength advantage over the serras seems unrefuted on this and other forums.

3. In addition to size, I read the following about the piraya on piranha-info

"*It's attacks seem to be more efficient than other Pygocentrus-species, and when it strikes, the opponent is often left with a large open wound, as opposed to the head-butting, chasing and warning behaviour its relatives exhibit before starting an all-out attack."*

Piraya

4. I read at least one report of a piraya killing a romb of equal size

Piraya kills romb

I haven't finished looking at all of the info out there yet, albeit all anecdotal. But it's interesting. I think at this point there is no clear cut answer.


----------



## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

Lumpsack said:


> Thank you for all of your responses. Craig, thank you especially. You make some good points. I think we can agree to disagree that it all comes down to the individual fish. While I agree that the individual specimen may have some variation, all species are not created equal when it comes to the attributes that make a piranha powerful. I think in all seriousness we don't know the answer. I'm intrigued right now by the paraya. Several reasons why.
> 
> 1. Obviously, it's the largest of the pygos. And other things being equal, yes size matters.
> 
> ...


Just becareful of the sources you are reading and how correct and accurate they may be. Im not saying these sites have false info, but if its just one persons accounts then it may not be too accurate!


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

Good point, Craig. Thanks.

Paul


----------



## STIFFY (Jul 9, 2003)

I think Craig sumed it up. 
Just to add from my exp. my reds are actually more agressive than my caribas, tern and piraya, but they dont f*ck around because of how much larger the tern and piraya are. I have seen them get out of line and when they did one of my reds ended up w/ a full bite out of his back from my piraya or tern. It was a huge bite, def. bigger around than the base of my thumb.







I would have to say that if the smaller, more agressive red was to go against the piraya he would not be able to. Anytime my shoal had large feeders not only do they just bite them but they manhandle the whole fish in there mouth as well. my smaller red would not be able to swing my piraya around in his jaws. 
Now say an equal size rhom vs piraya, it would all come down to what fish damaged the other first. when fish are that big a single bite _can_ be life threatening. I will not speculate on which fish is stronger or more agressive because that is where the personality of the fish comes into play.


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I was going to post an indepth reply, but after reading this through I realized it would make no difference from the science point of view. This entire thread, starting with the author of it, is full of "opinion" with no factual data. To sum it, individual species vary just like "humans vary" in size and strength. Simple enough to understand for those that comprehend. Bite strength for the Pygocentrus and Serrasalmus is identicle, the differences only being in size and ability to cut flesh, which both can do quite well. Pygopristis and Pristobrycon have the smaller teeth of the genera and lack the strong armature found in Serrasalmus and Pygocentrus. Everything else posted on web sites outside of science is pure speculation and opinionated replies without merit based on hobbyists observations in the home aquarium. Nothing wrong with it, but not worth arguing over.


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

hastatus said:


> I was going to post an indepth reply, but after reading this through I realized it would make no difference from the science point of view. This entire thread, starting with the author of it, is full of "opinion" with no factual data. To sum it, individual species vary just like "humans vary" in size and strength. Simple enough to understand for those that comprehend. Bite strength for the Pygocentrus and Serrasalmus is identicle, the differences only being in size and ability to cut flesh, which both can do quite well. Pygopristis and Pristobrycon have the smaller teeth of the genera and lack the strong armature found in Serrasalmus and Pygocentrus. Everything else posted on web sites outside of science is pure speculation and opinionated replies without merit based on hobbyists observations in the home aquarium. Nothing wrong with it, but not worth arguing over.


Funny, you spend your entire response condescending other contributors such as myself who don't or never claimed to offer a "scientific" analysis but only look at available information. Yet you who postulate about science and make unsupported assertions about Pygocentrus and Serrasalmus bite strength (while misspelling indentical) offer no data of your own. Most of our every day experience whether it's which gas station we buy gas at or which clothing store we get our briefs isn't science based. It's word of mouth, trial and error, and luck. I will be waiting for your citations for your assertions about bite strength. And I'm glad I realize everything in life isn't a double blind randomly selected peer reviewed clinical trial. We can talk realizing we aren't doing experiments or making absolute claims. My last conclusion was we don't know and I'm interested in the piraya. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

Lumpsack said:


> Funny, you spend your entire response condescending other contributors such as myself who don't or never claimed to offer a "scientific" analysis but only look at available information. Yet you who postulate about science and make unsupported assertions about pygocentrus and serrasalmus bite strength (while misspelling indentical) offer no data of your own. Most of our every day experience whether it's which gas station we buy gas at or which clothing store we get our briefs isn't science based. It's word of mouth, trial and error, and luck. So maybe before imposing a standard of proof which you aren't living upto in your reply, you should cite your authorities and realize everything in life isn't a double blind randomly selected peer reviewed clinical trial. We can talk realizing we aren't doing experiments or making absolute claims. My last conclusion was we don't know and I'm interested in the piraya. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


I can only guess by that post you dont know who Hastatus (Frank) is do you?









You might want to do a bit of checking before you question his credentials on providing scientific-backed comments!

And also...stop using long words as you seem to be confusing yourself and not making yourself sound intellegent which Im guessing your trying to do!


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

Craig,

I really don't care what his credentials are. And I'm sorry I misjudged you. I thought based on your prior thoughtful response that you weren't into putdowns, condescension and double standards (i.e. I criticize you for offering no data while offering none of my own). I see that I was mistaken. I was in search of a forum where we could have thoughtful discussion about tropical fish without the vitriolics. Guess I have to keep looking because it sure isn't here.

Paul


----------



## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

Lumpsack said:


> Craig,
> 
> I really don't care what his credentials are. And I'm sorry I misjudged you. I thought based on your prior thoughtful response that you weren't into putdowns, condescension and double standards (i.e. I criticize you for offering no data while offering none of my own). I see that I was mistaken. I was in search of a forum where we could have thoughtful discussion about tropical fish without the vitriolics. Guess I have to keep looking because it sure isn't here.
> 
> Paul


Well no offence, but if you too time to look at franks site OPEFE and read through his articles. If you took time to read through the Piranha Science forums which frank moderates you would find even more articles. Then you would see his research that backs up his statements!

And in regards to misjudging me, fine. I was only pointing out that you are using big words and obviously getting yourself confused as your not coming across in very good english!


----------



## Uncle Rico (Sep 4, 2005)

Any way, back to the main topic, as I am interested in that as well. I think a better way to put it is which piranhas *tend* to be more aggressive, since we all know within a species it varies, but aren't there tendencies characteristic to a given species? I think the experts here are being overly careful not to be misunderstood as saying that it is always the case (Because I know that even if you say a caribe is more aggressive than a red, there are individual reds more aggresive than individual caribes). Athough specific cases of individual fish can go against a generalization, isn't there a generalization that can be made with some degree of truth?


----------



## Piranhaz 411 (Oct 8, 2005)

romb big baby baby!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

CraigStables said:


> Craig,
> 
> I really don't care what his credentials are. And I'm sorry I misjudged you. I thought based on your prior thoughtful response that you weren't into putdowns, condescension and double standards (i.e. I criticize you for offering no data while offering none of my own). I see that I was mistaken. I was in search of a forum where we could have thoughtful discussion about tropical fish without the vitriolics. Guess I have to keep looking because it sure isn't here.
> 
> Paul


Well no offence, but if you too time to look at franks site OPEFE and read through his articles. If you took time to read through the Piranha Science forums which frank moderates you would find even more articles. Then you would see his research that backs up his statements!

And in regards to misjudging me, fine. I was only pointing out that you are using big words and obviously getting yourself confused as your not coming across in very good english!
[/quote]

Craig,

Thanks. Let me assure you, I'm not confused. I know what each word means, thank you very much. And I will take you up on your offer that Frank's research backs up his statement. I've also taken your advice and looked through OPEFE and his articles. Also, I've googled piranha and "bite strength" or "bite power". And truth be told, there is nothing I've found that backs Frank's statement that pygos and serra have the same bite strength. About a year ago, Frank said he didn't care about bite power while not contradicting the prior statement that bite strength had never been tested. Reference # 1 More recently on a July 2005 thread on piranha bite strength, both you and Frank offered no research, no data whatsoever. Reference # 2 You questioned why someone had a particular # while offering nothing more authoritative or definitive. Frank said basically if X then Y, supporting his earlier statement that he doesn't care about bite strength unless its to contradict unsupported assertions about pygo superiority over serras bite strength, the difference being the posters didn't make the assertions in the name of science and data.

And finally, thanks, I did look at Frank's website. Here is what it says about bite strength.

"The bite power

Dr. G. S. Myers, in The Piranha Book (TFH, M-539) gave the following Carl H. Eigenmann description:

"The best mechanical imitation of piranha teeth and jaws, and a very good imitation indeed, is a bear-trap, but one with teeth so sharpened on the edges, and the spring so strong, that they would clip off the bear's foot instead of merely holding it." No measurement of the biting power of a piranha has ever been made. It is my opinion the bite power is probably in the approximate range of 120-300 lbs sq. inch depending on size of fish. These estimates should not be considered as fact. Myers (1949) reported that "the power of the jaw muscles is such that there is scarcely living substance save the hardest ironwood that will not be clipped off."

Reference # 3

So, briefly, a year ago, Frank had no interest in bite strength. In July, he said if X then Y regarding it. His website still says no measurement of piranha bite strength has ever been made. But yesterday, he says pygo and serra bite strength are the same, and you back him saying the data support it. Fine, show me the data, or your retraction or your apology. If the data are produced, I promise they will be rigorously evaluated and not taken on faith.

Paul


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

Craig, you were quicker yesterday. Why have you waited? It took me an hour to respond to your challenge. I took it. And I'm waiting man. If you and Frank have the data, then in God's name give it. If you don't, then apologize or retract. It doesn't take a day for something like this. I'd like an answer.

Paul


----------



## STIFFY (Jul 9, 2003)

[/quote]
So, briefly, a year ago, Frank had no interest in bite strength. 
Paul
[/quote]
From the fact that you have less than 10 posts at this time and clearly were not here a year ago, I am assuming that Frank wrote on his website that he said that a year ago?


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

So, briefly, a year ago, Frank had no interest in bite strength. 
Paul
[/quote]
From the fact that you have less than 10 posts at this time and clearly were not here a year ago, I am assuming that Frank wrote on his website that he said that a year ago?
[/quote]

I put the hyperlinks on there for a reason. It was listed as Reference #1. Here's the link.

http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.ph...topic=59534&hl=

Ok. copy and paste. See post # 2.


----------



## traumatic (Jan 29, 2003)

Lumpsack, I think the question you asked has been answered. If you are calling out frank to give you more info, then you prob aren't going to get it. That is because there is none. As far as which piranha species is the most powerful, there is going to be speculation because no-one can prove it. I don't see anything condescending about what frank has to say, he spelled it out so it was easy to understand and impossible to question so basically there's nothing else to go on with.


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> traumatic Posted Today, 09:15 AM
> Lumpsack, I think the question you asked has been answered. If you are calling out frank to give you more info, then you prob aren't going to get it. That is because there is none. As far as which piranha species is the most powerful, there is going to be speculation because no-one can prove it. I don't see anything condescending about what frank has to say, he spelled it out so it was easy to understand and impossible to question so basically there's nothing else to go on with.


You think he gets it yet?









If not he can re-read what I wrote, particularly this: _Nothing wrong with it, but not worth arguing over. _ BTW Lumpsack, even the smartest scientists mispell words. To prove it just for you, read Norman's citation on the revision of the Serrasalminae, where he mispelled it Serrasalmoninae.

Have a nice day.


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

traumatic said:


> Lumpsack, I think the question you asked has been answered. If you are calling out frank to give you more info, then you prob aren't going to get it. That is because there is none. As far as which piranha species is the most powerful, there is going to be speculation because no-one can prove it. I don't see anything condescending about what frank has to say, he spelled it out so it was easy to understand and impossible to question so basically there's nothing else to go on with.


We don't know each other. And so, I bear you no ill will. And I hope for the same. I started this this thread in all honestly just get opinions and not to answer an empirical question which I know already hasn't been answered. If you missed the condescending put downs in Frank's post # 16. Here's a recap

"This entire thread, starting with the author of it, is full of "opinion" with no factual data. To sum it, individual species vary just like "humans vary" in size and strength. Simple enough to understand for those that comprehend. Bite strength for the Pygocentrus and Serrasalmus is identicle, the differences only being in size and ability to cut flesh, which both can do quite well"

http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?showtopic=101112

And Craig said his research backed his statement, presumably with the factual data that Frank criticized other (not just myself) for not having. Ok. I simply asked for the data. And I'm still waiting. If you don't see the condesenscion, ok. You aren't looking terribly hard. You talk about giving me more. What data do I have now? Zip. And you are probably right, there isn't likely more. But, if Frank makes good, I will look at his data and ask my colleagues to do the same.

Paul


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Good grief. For the sake of argument (and whining). Here is some information on pdf. I haven't posted this at OPEFE. But lumpsack, since you are gathering information for some purpose (or someone) this might be of use to you. Bite of Catoprion mento.


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

hastatus said:


> > traumatic Posted Today, 09:15 AM
> > Lumpsack, I think the question you asked has been answered. If you are calling out frank to give you more info, then you prob aren't going to get it. That is because there is none. As far as which piranha species is the most powerful, there is going to be speculation because no-one can prove it. I don't see anything condescending about what frank has to say, he spelled it out so it was easy to understand and impossible to question so basically there's nothing else to go on with.
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry Frank. You don't get off that easy. You made a factual statement. Pygo and serra bite strength are the same. And yet your record says no such comparison has been made and you have no interest in it. You have no data to support your assertion. You mention that even the smartest scientist misspell words. Yeah but most of them know how to use a spell checker. I'm not going to get my data am I, Frank? No, didn't think so. You can go on criticizing others for not doing what you are doing yourself, stating your opinion. The difference is most of us aren't citing ourselves as authorities or putting others down for simply saying what they think. If you have data, publish it. Get it peer reviewed. And... have a nice day.


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Lumpsack Posted Today, 09:37 AM
> 
> Sorry Frank. You don't get off that easy. You made a factual statement. Pygo and serra bite strength are the same. And yet your record says no such comparison has been made and you have no interest in it. You have no data to support your assertion. You mention that even the smartest scientist misspell words. Yeah but most of them know how to use a spell checker. I'm not going to get my data am I, Frank? No, didn't think so. You can go on criticizing others for not doing what you are doing yourself, stating your opinion. The difference is most of us aren't citing ourselves as authorities or putting others down for simply saying what they think. If you have data, publish it. Get it peer reviewed. And... have a nice day


Read Gery, 1972, 1977 the comparison's are there on bite strength. Don't have it? Too bad, you'll just have to get your own copy.

Since this has become a personal attack now, I'm done with this thread.


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

hastatus said:


> > Lumpsack Posted Today, 09:37 AM
> >
> > Sorry Frank. You don't get off that easy. You made a factual statement. Pygo and serra bite strength are the same. And yet your record says no such comparison has been made and you have no interest in it. You have no data to support your assertion. You mention that even the smartest scientist misspell words. Yeah but most of them know how to use a spell checker. I'm not going to get my data am I, Frank? No, didn't think so. You can go on criticizing others for not doing what you are doing yourself, stating your opinion. The difference is most of us aren't citing ourselves as authorities or putting others down for simply saying what they think. If you have data, publish it. Get it peer reviewed. And... have a nice day
> 
> ...


My my... Frank. Here's a news flash. It became a personal attack when you mentioned the "author" of the thread on post # 16. All that has changed since then is I have called you out you have come up squat on data. Your poor wimple piranha reference is now an embarrassment to my challenge since it doesn't support your assertion. For those who haven't, a simple screen of "pygo" or " Pygocentrus" isn't even mentioned in the reference. If you had data from "Gery 1972, 1977, that even old could have supported your reference, you could have offered it. Also why with 1972 and 1977 data then why does your website say piranha bite strength has never been tested? The short of it is you have been called out and come up short. Good day.

Paul


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> QUOTE(hastatus @ Oct 13 2005, 01:25 PM)
> 
> I was going to post an indepth reply, but after reading this through I realized it would make no difference from the science point of view. This entire thread, *starting with the author of it, is full of "opinion" with no factual data.*
> 
> ...


Nice try Lumpsack, but you missed the entire point.


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

hastatus said:


> > QUOTE(hastatus @ Oct 13 2005, 01:25 PM)
> >
> > I was going to post an indepth reply, but after reading this through I realized it would make no difference from the science point of view. This entire thread, *starting with the author of it, is full of "opinion" with no factual data.*
> >
> ...


Frank,

How's that? I'm not the one criticizing submitters for stating their opinions and not having factual data and then not providing it. That's you. You got a simple question. Back up your statement that pygo and serra bite strength are comparable which in context was offered by you as part of a criticism to those posters on this thread that we simply had opinon without factual data. When pressed you had none. You still have none. It seems to me that I'm not the one who missed the point.

Paul


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

Ok then. I've got my non-answer. As I said, good day. If you've that the data I'm asking for and which you supposedly based your opinion on instead of this tripe:

"I stand by what I wrote above. All you have offered, as well as everyone else is "opinions".

I don't need to prove anything to you. You wanted opinions, you got it. You want "facts" go research it via science publications.

You have 10 fingers I assume, suggest you put them inside a large Pygocentrus and Serrasalmus mouth of equal size, let them bite down on them and let us know which one removes your fingers."

then I will wait to see it. Otherwise, your opinion is the same as everyone elses or at a minimum not subject to a criticism that they haven't got factual data, Frank, that you haven't got yourself.

Paul


----------



## traumatic (Jan 29, 2003)

it's all speculation as to whether or not one piranha can bite down harder than another. If you are looking for PSI, where are you gonna find that info?

Frank has the foremost and accurate collection of piranha info on the web. How can you argue w/ him? He says there is no info on bite strength or "power ratings" of piranha to the best of his knowledge. He's honestly trying to help you the best he can but you are trying to call him out, why? Count to ten man, take a deep breath.


----------



## CrAzYPiRaYa74985 (Oct 7, 2005)

the most dangerous Piranha are very very hungy piranhas.

dont feed it for a week or 2 it will be dangerous


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

traumatic said:


> it's all speculation as to whether or not one piranha can bite down harder than another. If you are looking for PSI, where are you gonna find that info?
> 
> Frank has the foremost and accurate collection of piranha info on the web. How can you argue w/ him? He says there is no info on bite strength or "power ratings" of piranha to the best of his knowledge. He's honestly trying to help you the best he can but you are trying to call him out, why? Count to ten man, take a deep breath.


 "He's honestly trying to help you the best he can but you are trying to call him out, why?"

Again, I have no disagreement with you. You didn't put me down. Nor, I you. I'm not disparaging Frank's website, his knowledge or authority of piranhas, nor his experience. I simply don't like being put down. Why is that so hard to understand?

"Frank has the foremost and accurate collection of piranha info on the web. How can you argue w/ him? He says there is no info on bite strength or "power ratings" of piranha to the best of his knowledge"

Well, no actually. That's not what the man said. What he said is quoted above. It's that serras and pygos have the same or comprable bite strength. And that's in conflict his own website and record.

"He's honestly trying to help you the best he can but you are trying to call him out, why?"

How do you see help being offered out of the above thread. Looks more like one upsmanship if you ask me. Simple enough question to answer given his criticism. You asked "why". Why did he criticize me for something he himself couldn't provide. If the man were simply offering an opinion, I wouldn't be wasting my time.


----------



## wasabi-glow (Jun 30, 2005)

traumatic said:


> If you are looking for PSI, where are you gonna find that info?


We might just request Dr. Brady Barr from National Geographic to do the BITE STREGNTH test.








I've seen him do it on Sharks, Dogs, Crocs, and some other animals.


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

Wasabi, Traumatic, et. al.

I wish you well. Any further research on the issue will undoubtedly provide more light than heat, in opposition to my poor example. Be well. I love piranhas. I just don't like being put down. I assume you are the same.

Paul


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

No one (including myself) put you down. Highly sensitive are we?

When I'm ready to share data it will be made available at OPEFE. Rest assured, what I wrote a year or so ago is outdated. Thank you for reminding me of that and I can assure you new information will be coming soon. You'll just have to wait for it like everyone else. Just because I have no interest in bite strength of a piranha, does not mean that I'm not researching it for everyone.

End of story.


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

Hmm.. seems like you want to pick a fight. I'll pass. I'm not highly sensitive. Probably like most people on this thread, I don't like be talked down too, especially someone who can't live up to things he's criticizing. The next time our paths cross I hope that you will better able to support your statements than you were on this one. Out.


----------



## traumatic (Jan 29, 2003)

Seriously Paul, he doesn't have the info you seek. He told you all he could do was formulate and opinion on the subject.

I can at best tell you to think logically about jaw muscle structure, shape and leverage. I'll tell you right now piranha can bite through flesh like butter. I don't really know specifically what else there is to care to know about.


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

traumatic said:


> Seriously Paul, he doesn't have the info you seek. He told you all he could do was formulate and opinion on the subject.
> 
> I can at best tell you to think logically about jaw muscle structure, shape and leverage. I'll tell you right now piranha can bite through flesh like butter. I don't really know specifically what else there is to care to know about.


Traumatic,

Thanks. Assuming that's true, that serras and pygos have similar jawbite or at least sufficient to inflict a lethal blow for the one who got the first hit, it would go against some of what I have read that pygos have an inherent advantage in that department. When I was younger, I kept a 4 inch RB in a 30 breeder with an 8 inch pike cichlid. The pike was very aggressive and chased the red belly. To my dismay (I loved my pike), I learned to respect piranha strength the next morning when the pike's tail and lower jaw were bitten off. Never again did I mix cichlids and piranha. Hard lesson.

Paul


----------



## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

Lumpsack wrote :

We don't know each other. And so, I bear you no ill will. And I hope for the same. I started this this thread in all honestly just get opinions and not to answer an empirical question which I know already hasn't been answered. If you missed the condescending put downs in Frank's post # 16. Here's a recap

Since you critique everyone I thought I would critique you. "I started this thread in all honestly just get opinions and not to answer an empirical question which I know already hasn't been answered." Your statement is grammatically incorrect. Had you been correct, you would have added the word "to" inbetween just and get.


----------



## traumatic (Jan 29, 2003)

CROSSHAIR223 said:


> Since you critique everyone I thought I would critique you. "I started this thread in all honestly just get opinions and not to answer an empirical question which I know already hasn't been answered." Your statement is grammatically incorrect. Had you been correct, you would have added the word "to" inbetween just and get.:rasp:


no need for that man.


----------



## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

traumatic said:


> Since you critique everyone I thought I would critique you. "I started this thread in all honestly just get opinions and not to answer an empirical question which I know already hasn't been answered." Your statement is grammatically incorrect. Had you been correct, you would have added the word "to" inbetween just and get.:rasp:


no need for that man.
[/quote]

Hardly.


----------



## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

Lumpsack said:


> Craig, you were quicker yesterday. Why have you waited? It took me an hour to respond to your challenge. I took it. And I'm waiting man. If you and Frank have the data, then in God's name give it. If you don't, then apologize or retract. It doesn't take a day for something like this. I'd like an answer.
> 
> Paul


Damn, I wish I was just here for all this as it looked like fun









But unfortunatly on a Friday night Lumpsack (as I am in the UK) I have better things to do than to sit here and argue with you over stuff you obviously have your own opinions on and arent willing to listen to anyone else!

Anyway, have a good night, week, life. And i look forward to your next long worded but not really understandable post


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

CraigStables said:


> Craig, you were quicker yesterday. Why have you waited? It took me an hour to respond to your challenge. I took it. And I'm waiting man. If you and Frank have the data, then in God's name give it. If you don't, then apologize or retract. It doesn't take a day for something like this. I'd like an answer.
> 
> Paul


Damn, I wish I was just here for all this as it looked like fun









But unfortunatly on a Friday night Lumpsack (as I am in the UK) I have better things to do than to sit here and argue with you over stuff you obviously have your own opinions on and arent willing to listen to anyone else!

Anyway, have a good night, week, life. And i look forward to your next long worded but not really understandable post








[/quote]

And I look forward to your next unsupported assertion passed off as fact.


----------



## Uncle Rico (Sep 4, 2005)

Lumpsack said:


> Funny, you spend your entire response condescending other contributors such as myself who don't or never claimed to offer a "scientific" analysis but only look at available information. Yet you who postulate about science and make unsupported assertions about Pygocentrus and Serrasalmus bite strength (while misspelling indentical) offer no data of your own. Most of our every day experience whether it's which gas station we buy gas at or which clothing store we get our briefs isn't science based. It's word of mouth, trial and error, and luck. I will be waiting for your citations for your assertions about bite strength. And I'm glad I realize everything in life isn't a double blind randomly selected peer reviewed clinical trial. We can talk realizing we aren't doing experiments or making absolute claims. My last conclusion was we don't know and I'm interested in the piraya. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


 You illustrated the fact that spelling errors are common on posts by mispelling identical as "indentical" when you were trying to point out his spelling mistake.


----------



## mylesc99 (Sep 5, 2005)

Interesting debate!!!


----------



## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

well after reading this and many other disscussions frank has been in with other people i have come to the conclusion that frank might not realize it but he does indeed talk down to people with statements like coming from a average hobbyist and other statements of the such.just my 2 cents though ak.by the way nice debate keep it coming there lumpsack,this is enjoyable.


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> AKSkirmish Posted Yesterday, 01:00 PM
> well after reading this and many other disscussions frank has been in with other people* i have come to the conclusion that frank might not realize it but he does indeed talk down to people with statements like coming from a average hobbyist *and other statements of the such.just my 2 cents though ak.by the way nice debate keep it coming there lumpsack,this is enjoyable.


Your conclusions are biased. I don't "talk down" I type and post. Typed words on a forum lack emotion, however it does not stop people who are sensitive to begin with to become emotional when they have no clue whether or not the person is giving a sincere "typed" answer. If you have any intelligence at all, anyone can figure that out. One can also detect via typed words if a person it baiting someone to reply.

FOR THE RECORD:

1. There is NO DEBATE. Just dribble.

2. If you are looking for quesses and wishful thinking, by all means, then continue this thread. The fact is P. nattereri bite strength is being researched, but the people who are doing it have had difficulty with getting the fish to bite the device needed to record the information. Reason, _P. nattereri is skittish_ to quote the researchers actual words. All they can do is estimate using their own software by taking measurements. Just as I have estimated. That's as good as it gets via science, for now. This rest is speculation.


----------



## Show_Me_The_Teeth (Dec 4, 2002)

BORING!!! WHO CARES!!!! I came back here to read this crap. Man I haven't missed a thing!

SMTT

As far a as the strongest piranha it would be determine by its size and health. But a group of them is pretty strong too.


----------



## mashunter18 (Jan 2, 2004)

Deleted one thread in this post. Just a reminder, of rule #1 of the forum.

No need to go on a one post rampage......









*1. Treat ALL MEMBERS with respect. I dont care if the person owns snails or has been dealing with piranhas for 30 years. EVERYONE is to be treated with respect here. Feel free to express different opinions and thoughts but it should ALWAYS be done in a respectful and positive manner. Absolutely no flaming, harrassing, bitch wars, etc.... If something is 'annoying' you about certain people or certain questions; my advice is to ignore it. *


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

AKSkirmish said:


> well after reading this and many other disscussions frank has been in with other people i have come to the conclusion that frank might not realize it but he does indeed talk down to people with statements like coming from a average hobbyist and other statements of the such.just my 2 cents though ak.by the way nice debate keep it coming there lumpsack,this is enjoyable.


Thanks AK. Your thoughts are much appreciated.


----------



## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Lumpsack said:


> > AKSkirmish Posted Yesterday, 01:00 PM
> > well after reading this and many other disscussions frank has been in with other people* i have come to the conclusion that frank might not realize it but he does indeed talk down to people with statements like coming from a average hobbyist *and other statements of the such.just my 2 cents though ak.by the way nice debate keep it coming there lumpsack,this is enjoyable.
> 
> 
> ...

















i was only putting in my 2 cents from what you have TYPED in such a way that it sounds excactly like your putting someone down thats all,i'm not going to debate this is just the way it is and i have never had a conversation with you frank.look at what you just wrote there guy"if you have any intellegence at all"well i have enough not to argue with your ass bye now.


----------



## Uncle Rico (Sep 4, 2005)

AKSkirmish said:


> > AKSkirmish Posted Yesterday, 01:00 PM
> > well after reading this and many other disscussions frank has been in with other people* i have come to the conclusion that frank might not realize it but he does indeed talk down to people with statements like coming from a average hobbyist *and other statements of the such.just my 2 cents though ak.by the way nice debate keep it coming there lumpsack,this is enjoyable.
> 
> 
> ...

















i was only putting in my 2 cents from what you have TYPED in such a way that it sounds excactly like your putting someone down thats all,i'm not going to debate this is just the way it is and i have never had a conversation with you frank.look at what you just wrote there guy"if you have any intellegence at all"well i have enough not to argue with your ass bye now.
[/quote]

Well AKSkirmish does have a point, especially since this behaivior is coming from the moderator, suprisingly. Strange...


----------



## mashunter18 (Jan 2, 2004)

You guys are taking it to personally. I have disagreed with Frank before, and never felt that way.

Its not really a debate or disagreement over anything other then the way words are/were phrased, kind of like teenage girl gossip.


> Well Billy told Marsha he saw her at blah blah blah


I dont think you guys know how much information Frank has at his home that has never made its way to his website, let alone p-fury....


----------



## sublime1184 (Aug 22, 2005)

hastatus said:


> I was going to post an indepth reply, but after reading this through I realized it would make no difference from the science point of view. This entire thread, starting with the author of it, is full of "opinion" with no factual data. To sum it, individual species vary just like "humans vary" in size and strength. Simple enough to understand for those that comprehend. Bite strength for the Pygocentrus and Serrasalmus is identicle, the differences only being in size and ability to cut flesh, which both can do quite well. Pygopristis and Pristobrycon have the smaller teeth of the genera and lack the strong armature found in Serrasalmus and Pygocentrus. Everything else posted on web sites outside of science is pure speculation and opinionated replies without merit based on hobbyists observations in the home aquarium. Nothing wrong with it, but not worth arguing over.


Thats the same reason I didn't reply to him on a different forum...


----------



## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Peerahnya said:


> You guys are taking it to personally. I have disagreed with Frank before, and never felt that way.
> 
> Its not really a debate or disagreement over anything other then the way words are/were phrased, kind of like teenage girl gossip.
> 
> ...


he kinda make its personall first by the statements he makes,i have already put in my 2 cents i will leave it at that.No wants to be talked down to,so there for no one will eventually care what frank has to say unless he is reminded that he is not god and there are plenty of people out there smarter than frank on this piranha issue.Dont get me wrong i am glad frank has decide to share his beloved info with the rest of us,it has became very useful.Im not trying to down talk you frank i just figure if enough people state this(which they have) you might also see it this way.


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> AKSkirmish Posted Today, 09:54 AM
> QUOTE(Peerahnya @ Oct 18 2005, 12:28 AM)
> 
> QUOTE(AKSkirmish @ Oct 17 2005, 08:41 PM)
> ...


My suggestion to you is go back and read the original topic and s-l-o-w-ly read what I wrote in reply. Have some unbiased person re-read it for you and/or explain to you. Because from where I sit you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.


----------



## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

*o.k, please this is the second time for this thread, any personal disagreements, about other members , flaming and name calling is not aloud, to any member of this site, especially in these piranha hobby forums.

Please use pm if you have a direct thing to say to ANY fellow member, especially if you wish to call them names and well flame them*


----------



## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

I will try this again later. HE CALLED ME OUT ON THIS


----------



## mashunter18 (Jan 2, 2004)

AKSkirmish said:


> that was low you cant let this person get what he has coming to him HE CALLED ME OUT ON THIS


Not really, you need to reword it without the personal blasts and threats, as I posted the rules reminder in a previous post on page 2 of this thread.

Its one thing to debate piranha jaw bite strength, it just needs to be done respectfully to all members, weather they have been here 3 years or 3 minutes. ITs Xenons rules, if anything respect his site, his generous bandwith(unlimted private messages and picture galleries)......









No big deal, but if that was left on here, this would turn to 10 pages of nothing to do about jawbite strength, which is a good debate, and very good topic


----------



## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

mashunter18 said:


> that was low you cant let this person get what he has coming to him HE CALLED ME OUT ON THIS


Not really, you need to reword it without the personal blasts and threats, as I posted the rules reminder in a previous post on page 2 of this thread.

Its one thing to debate piranha jaw bite strength, it just needs to be done respectfully to all members, weather they have been here 3 years or 3 minutes. ITs Xenons rules, if anything respect his site, his generous bandwith(unlimted private messages and picture galleries)......









No big deal, but if that was left on here, this would turn to 10 pages of nothing to do about jawbite strength, which is a good debate, and very good topic
[/quote]

totally agree there guy and i am very sorry i dont want to cause you n e trouble this is between me and frank now.


----------



## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

AKSkirmish said:


> that was low you cant let this person get what he has coming to him HE CALLED ME OUT ON THIS


Not really, you need to reword it without the personal blasts and threats, as I posted the rules reminder in a previous post on page 2 of this thread.

Its one thing to debate piranha jaw bite strength, it just needs to be done respectfully to all members, weather they have been here 3 years or 3 minutes. ITs Xenons rules, if anything respect his site, his generous bandwith(unlimted private messages and picture galleries)......









No big deal, but if that was left on here, this would turn to 10 pages of nothing to do about jawbite strength, which is a good debate, and very good topic
[/quote]

totally agree there guy and i am very sorry i dont want to cause you n e trouble this is between me and frank now.
[/quote]
Whatever arguement you have for Frank leave it to PM only. This thread has just about run its course.


----------



## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

prob is solved me and mas have took it up .thanks though.


----------



## spacealien (Sep 18, 2005)

There's no way size matters. My girlfriend sez so.


----------



## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

spacealien said:


> There's no way size matters. My girlfriend sez so.


I wouldn't brag about that


----------



## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

spacealien said:


> There's no way size matters. My girlfriend sez so.


wtf?


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

To get back on topic, I think that it's worth reiterating that there is a clear interest on the part of many piranha owners to assess status of the species of that piranha. Whether status depends on the resilience, beauty, aggression or power varies from question to question. And much of the attention has focused on aggression. Several sites have aggression ratings for species or aggression polls. And I thought that in addition to aggression, that power or the general ability of one species at maturity to overcome another was an interesting question to pose for discussion purposes. And I agree that there are no data currently which would allow you to make the statement that one piranha species is more powerful than another. Nor ethically, would we want to test it by randomly sampling mature specimens and having some kind of face off.

However, that does not mean that it all depends on the individual fish and that no generalizations could be made. The answer is unknown. It is not unknowable. Nor is there anymore data to support the conjecture that there is no relationship among species and power than that there is a relationship. If such data does exist, I would be interested in seeing it.

What we are left with is opinion, but not solely opinion. We have proxies for power such as maximum size at maturity and potentially bite strength. We have observation and anecdotal reports such as the one I provided earlier about the piraya killing a rhom of equal size. We observe behavioral differences such as shoaling among pygos and solitary hunting among serras.

In any case, I will continue to read and listen. And thanks to all who contributed to the topic.


----------



## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

I think in order to get the bite strength and have it figured out for each size and specie of piranha you don't need someone like Frank but rather a mathamatician. Frank learns all he can about piranhas, but such things as bite strength are as relative to learning about piranha as learning about how strong the bladder muscles are which propel urine through the excretory system. The only true way would be to take something that compresses at known strength's and have the piranha bite it. You could hide it in food or what have you but after collecting the data on how far it has been compressed by the jaws of a piranha you would then have to break it into math. If piranhas are as Frank says in regards to bite strength, which is relative to the size of the fish then this will be easy to prove. The length and density of the muscle around the jaw could now be used in comparison to the tool used to test bite strength and you could then create a formula to find bite strength. My point being, is from what I know of Frank he doesn't study piranha in this fashion. He studies what makes them different, social patterns, feeding patterns. He learns about them from the outside not the inside. Picture a wall clock Lumpsack, you are wanting to know why the clock works and Frank is learning how the clock works.


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

The article Lumpsack you casually dismissed on C. mento could have taken you to the scientists who are working with the mechanics of bite strength. Had you taken the time to read it and go to the university web site of the author of the work, you would have found a download for software that can deliver the information you seek or at least as a minimum the general formula to determine bite capability.


----------



## chains01 (Oct 9, 2005)

I think there's more to factor into this then even actions of an individual species, individual fish, etc. Environment plays a factor, people are asking which piranha is the most aggressive, well, that same fish might not be as aggressive in your tank. And it could very well be a piranha that's not kept it captivity at the moment. But a piranha in a smaller tank will be more aggressive than one in a bigger tank, one in cooler water won't be as active as one in warmer water. Food adds to the equation, one with a steady diet won't be as aggressive either, as one that is fed sporadically as it would be in the wild. There are many varying factors leading to this, and then you're still not going to get the same result because it is difficult to replicate the piranhas natural habitat, then you would need to get the same plant life, animal life, water conditions, etc. of the amazon, as well as spacial issues. Since we don't have all of that, we're looking at getting the piranha to do what we can in a home aquarium, which will always be different because we always give the fish it's our own idea of what we want their habitat to be.


----------



## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

Winston Wolf said:


> I think there's more to factor into this then even actions of an individual species, individual fish, etc. Environment plays a factor, people are asking which piranha is the most aggressive, well, that same fish might not be as aggressive in your tank. And it could very well be a piranha that's not kept it captivity at the moment. But a piranha in a smaller tank will be more aggressive than one in a bigger tank, one in cooler water won't be as active as one in warmer water. Food adds to the equation, one with a steady diet won't be as aggressive either, as one that is fed sporadically as it would be in the wild. There are many varying factors leading to this, and then you're still not going to get the same result because it is difficult to replicate the piranhas natural habitat, then you would need to get the same plant life, animal life, water conditions, etc. of the amazon, as well as spacial issues. Since we don't have all of that, we're looking at getting the piranha to do what we can in a home aquarium, which will always be different because we always give the fish it's our own idea of what we want their habitat to be.


This would be perfect in a debate about which piranha is the most aggressive and what surroundings contribute to that characteristic in piranha. However, we are talking bite strength and bite strength only, not aggression and how it contributes. The only thing aggression would contribute to, is an object being bit on a more dependable ratio.


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Lumpsack said:


> What we are left with is opinion, but not solely opinion. We have proxies for power such as maximum size at maturity and potentially bite strength. We have observation and anecdotal reports such as the one I provided earlier about the piraya killing a rhom of equal size. We observe behavioral differences such as shoaling among pygos and solitary hunting among serras.
> 
> In any case, I will continue to read and listen. And thanks to all who contributed to the topic.


I don't see what any of the 3 things you mentioned has to do with bite strength.....except maybe the fist...but I think that is an assumption. I would be willing to bet that there are breeds of dogs that have a stronger bite strength...than breeds that are larger them. There may be some correlation, but I dont think it would be set in stone. Also, one fish killing another has nothing to do with power. Every piranha has the ability to kill another piranha should he deliver a fatal bite...it makes no difference which fish is more powerful or has a stronger bite. I also dont feel that whether a fish groups in the wild or not has anything to do with power or bite strength. So fish live in groups in the wild....that makes them less powerful than fish that dont....or vice versa?


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Pound for pound, pacus likely have the stronger bite. They do crack hardshell nuts with their teeth/jaw muscles.


----------



## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

first off im not trying to start nothing but isnt bone harder than nutshells?


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

Grosse Gurke said:


> What we are left with is opinion, but not solely opinion. We have proxies for power such as maximum size at maturity and potentially bite strength. We have observation and anecdotal reports such as the one I provided earlier about the piraya killing a rhom of equal size. We observe behavioral differences such as shoaling among pygos and solitary hunting among serras.
> 
> In any case, I will continue to read and listen. And thanks to all who contributed to the topic.


I don't see what any of the 3 things you mentioned has to do with bite strength.....except maybe the fist...but I think that is an assumption. I would be willing to bet that there are breeds of dogs that have a stronger bite strength...than breeds that are larger them. There may be some correlation, but I dont think it would be set in stone. Also, one fish killing another has nothing to do with power. Every piranha has the ability to kill another piranha should he deliver a fatal bite...it makes no difference which fish is more powerful or has a stronger bite. I also dont feel that whether a fish groups in the wild or not has anything to do with power or bite strength. So fish live in groups in the wild....that makes them less powerful than fish that dont....or vice versa?
[/quote]

The proxies I mentioned (size, bite strength, anecdotal reports, direct observation) are relative to the scenario I presented where two piranha of maturity and different species "face off". Another contributor on this same topic made the assertion in another forum that pygos have superior bite strength to serras as a general rule. I reported that earlier in thread. Frank does not believe that's true, rather that there is no inherent difference in bite strength. But it wasn't my intent to imply that bite strength is or would be the sole determinant of an outcome. Rather, it came originally from the same topic on another thread in a different forum.

I think the analogy to dog breeds is actually a good one. Pit bulls, on average, have come out on top against larger breeds such as the bandog (a cross between a pit bull and a mastiff made in an attempt to increase the size of the pit bull. It was found that the pit bull had greater endurance than the ban dog which was more important than size in determining outcome). That said, what about size? Since piranha species have different maximum size, does larger size give an advantage in bite strength, power or strength?

Concerning pygos, Piranha-fury fact sheets (compiled by Frank and Jonas Hansel) on different species list total length for caribes and natteri at around 14 inches (saying natteri are rarely over 12 in aquariums). They list the piraya total length at 24 inches. Moreover, both the piraya and caribe fact sheets describe those species as "extremely dangerous to hands and other extremites. Care is required in handling." Despite the natteri's ability to deliver a nasty bite, its fact sheet does not contain this warning. I found this interesting. Moreover, the natteri fact sheet states that caribes are more active, territorial and aggressive than natteri. And that seems to be consistent with many of the reports I have read on this forum and others.

So, notwithstanding that pygo species have common characteristics and behavior, there are differences in maximum size and behavior. And as I reported back on post 12, one website reports that piraya have an advantage over caribe, terns and natteri in striking in that it doesn't warn or chase but rather bites more easily. 
piraya

So just looking at 3 pygo species, there are reported differences in size and behavior that could lead one to the conclusion that all pygo species aren't necessarily equal when it comes power.

In any case, this is the kind of information and comparison, I'm looking for including but not limited to bite strength. Similarly with serras, rhoms are reported at maximum length of 20 inches, geryi at 10 inches. Like a pit bull beating a ban dog, or a wolverine fighting off a much larger black bear, size doesn't necessarily dictate outcome. The question is how much of a factor is it? What other factors come into play?


----------



## Mughal (Mar 3, 2005)

I think Grosse Gurk probably cracked Lumpsacks Nuts with that last response of his.

BTW the most POWERFUL piranha (power is defined as Wattage) would have to be the Giant Black Rhom. Since POWER is mathematically based on how much energy you can expend in a given time the larger rhoms (I talked to a fisher in Brasil who had 25 m of line out of his rod in just a few seconds...it was so fast I he couldn't stop it...If it was around 3-5 seconds that would be an incredible 17-25 mph....


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

BTW, the original poster who opined that pygos have greater bite strength can be found at the following URL

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/s...882&postcount=2

"Pyogocentrus are morphologically speaking almost identical except for piraya's size, and have more muscle to drive their jaws than Serrasalmus, the latter which depend on fish scales for a greater portion of their diet."


----------



## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

the debates over :rasp:


----------



## Round Head (Sep 26, 2005)

I am no expert with these fish but from my knowledge of a mysterious animal, the American Pitbull Terrier, I like to make an analogy with a quote, "He bites hard because he wants to."
If there are any dogmen here, you can testify to that famous statement. Big muscle headed specimen may look very impressive but a pin headed specimen can tear you up quick. If we are comparing piranhas with other fish, then of course the piranha in general would be declared the ultimate biter with power. Same as comparing an APBT with a cocker spaniel. This topic is questioning the bitting power of piranhas which correlates with my knowledge of APBT and that not a unique family of bulldogs bite harder than the other. Moreover not all dogs from the same liter have the same bite. I have no emperical date on piranha bites but my scientific guess would be per individual basis.


----------



## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

piranhas are food in the wild. they dont have the strongest bite.
wes


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> PIRANHA KING Posted Today, 10:26 PM
> piranhas are food in the wild. they dont have the strongest bite.
> wes


There is "otter" truth to that.


----------



## jiggy (Jun 27, 2004)

dont peacock bass demolish p's in the wild?


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> jiggy Posted Today, 11:26 PM
> dont peacock bass demolish p's in the wild?


We are going off topic, but yes, peacock bass eat piranhas, as do Hydrolycus, caiman's and birds among other things.


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Lumpsack said:


> The proxies I mentioned (size, bite strength, anecdotal reports, direct observation) are relative to the scenario I presented where two piranha of maturity and different species "face off". Another contributor on this same topic made the assertion in another forum that pygos have superior bite strength to serras as a general rule. I reported that earlier in thread. Frank does not believe that's true, rather that there is no inherent difference in bite strength. But it wasn't my intent to imply that bite strength is or would be the sole determinant of an outcome. Rather, it came originally from the same topic on another thread in a different forum.
> 
> I think the analogy to dog breeds is actually a good one. Pit bulls, on average, have come out on top against larger breeds such as the bandog (a cross between a pit bull and a mastiff made in an attempt to increase the size of the pit bull. It was found that the pit bull had greater endurance than the ban dog which was more important than size in determining outcome). That said, what about size? Since piranha species have different maximum size, does larger size give an advantage in bite strength, power or strength?
> 
> ...


I agree that with pygos it would make sense that the piraya would have a stronger bite given the size difference with the other pygos. However, I have a bullmastif that is mistaken for a pitbull by those that dont know dogs and my dog is larger than any pit. My dog is 140 pounds and is a rock. If reports are true...then the smaller pitbull still has a greater bite...even though these dogs are very similar in outer appearance...and my dog is twice the size of most pits.
I think you would need to look at the internal structure of the jaw and the relative muscle used to create the bite. 
I also agree that pygos and serras (for the most part) have different jaw and teeth structure because they eat different things in the wild. Pygos are scavengers while serras are fin biters. There are very noticible differences in the jaw and teeth. My geryi have 2 very promonant "fangs" uper and lower....for example....much different than a pygos.

Bottom line....unless there is a study of full grown fish biting into a meter that reads bite presure....I think you would need to look at the internal structure of the jaw and the relative muscle used to create the bite.


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

PIRANHA KING said:


> the debates over :rasp:


What species is that?


----------



## chains01 (Oct 9, 2005)

CROSSHAIR223 said:


> I think there's more to factor into this then even actions of an individual species, individual fish, etc. Environment plays a factor, people are asking which piranha is the most aggressive, well, that same fish might not be as aggressive in your tank. And it could very well be a piranha that's not kept it captivity at the moment. But a piranha in a smaller tank will be more aggressive than one in a bigger tank, one in cooler water won't be as active as one in warmer water. Food adds to the equation, one with a steady diet won't be as aggressive either, as one that is fed sporadically as it would be in the wild. There are many varying factors leading to this, and then you're still not going to get the same result because it is difficult to replicate the piranhas natural habitat, then you would need to get the same plant life, animal life, water conditions, etc. of the amazon, as well as spacial issues. Since we don't have all of that, we're looking at getting the piranha to do what we can in a home aquarium, which will always be different because we always give the fish it's our own idea of what we want their habitat to be.


This would be perfect in a debate about which piranha is the most aggressive and what surroundings contribute to that characteristic in piranha. However, we are talking bite strength and bite strength only, not aggression and how it contributes. The only thing aggression would contribute to, is an object being bit on a more dependable ratio.
[/quote]

But this started out as a debate on which piranha species is the most aggressive. What I'm stating is that environment could also factor into the aggression of a piranha. Does bite strength really matter that much when you're dealing with aggression, after all, I would think that a piranha with a weaker bite strength would be more aggressive do to the fact that it would actually have to rip the meat of of it's prey rather than just bite it off. But what we're dealing with is a fish that all species can very easily rip the skin off of it's prey, this doesn't really factor into the aggression of the fish. Tenacity, which is least skittish, which will attack food at the moment it hits the water, reaction rates to changes in surrounding such as reaction to tank mates, etc. is what really should be looked at when you're dealing with the aggression, not bite strength.

My bad, I was misspeaking. This was a thread on power, but then, couldn't power also be looked at as aggression, and vice versa. A much more aggressive but weaker fish can demolish a much more powerful but yet docile fish. And then there's schooling fish which appear very aggressive and powerful in groups, but on their own their quite a bit more docile and skittish. So should they really be counted out on the search for powerful piranha.


----------



## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

Lumpsack said:


> the debates over :rasp:


What species is that?
[/quote]








and your arguing bite strength??? I know they are not diretly related but you can't Identify a piraya?


----------



## Lumpsack (Oct 5, 2005)

CROSSHAIR223 said:


> the debates over :rasp:


What species is that?
[/quote]








and your arguing bite strength??? I know they are not diretly related but you can't Identify a piraya?
[/quote]

I'm discussing, not arguing. Thanks for answering my question.


----------



## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

Lumpsack said:


> the debates over :rasp:


What species is that?
[/quote]








and your arguing bite strength??? I know they are not diretly related but you can't Identify a piraya?
[/quote]

I'm discussing, not arguing. Thanks for answering my question.
[/quote]








okay you're Discussing bite strength and can't even identify a piraya???


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

You dont need to be able to ID every fish to have an intelligent argument about bite stength.


----------



## wasabi-glow (Jun 30, 2005)

Ok, finally I got the information about the National Geographic video that was aired where Dr. Brady Barr did bite stregnth on Dogs and animals.. and it proved that PITBULLS don't have the strongest bite out there... maybe this might help with the subject...

Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic just had a show on (Dangerous Encounters: Bite Force, 8pm est 8/18/2005) where he measured bite forces of many different creatures. Domestic dogs were included in the test.

Here are the results of all of the animals tested:

Humans: 120 pounds of bite pressure

Domestic dogs: (a GSD, APBT and Rott were tested using a bite sleeve with a computer instrument in it. The APBT had the LEAST amount of pressure of the 3 dogs!!) >>> Rott: 320 LBS of pressure ; GSD: 260 LBS of Pressure; APBT (Pitbull): 150 LBS of pressure.

Wild dogs: 310 lbs

Lions: 600 lbs

White sharks: 600 lbs

Hyenas: 1000 lbs

Snapping turtles: 1000 lbs

Crocadiles: 2500 lbs

The test proves that Pits DO NOT have the 3500 lbs of pressure in their bite as claimed by some APBT owners. The nice thing about the test is that the domestic dogs were the only animals that could give a repetitive accurate bite, vs a wild animal that had to be lured in. <<< this can really be hard especially if they do it on a Piranha.. As what FRANK mentioned, it will be definitely hard to test RBPs because of their skittishness.









BTW: in the video, there was one dude who was working out at a gym and his BITE STREGNTH was like 200 lbs of pressure... Dr. Barr was amazed and said that the guy must be a monster or something...







I just hope they'd air it again. Also the instrument costs a lot.. I think he mentioned something like 10,000 Dollars for the small piece that you bite on.. <<< INFO IS FROM THE NATIONAL GEOGRPAHIC THAT WAS AIRED A COUPLE OF TIMES IN AUGUST & EARLY SEPTEMBER... I hope they air it again..


----------



## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Grosse Gurke said:


> You dont need to be able to ID every fish to have an intelligent argument about bite stength.


Very true...
Funny how some that are around for less than a year are already making fun of others (even funnier when they don't know jack sh*t about the people they laugh at): I guess after less than a year you are qualified to laugh at others and forget you once started out as a newcomer full of questions...


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I want to add something here, though a Serrasalmus uses its "teeth" which are specialized to bite fins, does not mean they lack the musculature of Pygocentrus. One reason why old historical scientists refused to separate genera because of the similarity of musculature v. Pygopristis & Pristobrycon which generally always kept their separate genera from the other two.


----------



## chains01 (Oct 9, 2005)

I'm still wondering why we're discussing bite strength though, each of these piranhas have the ability to bite through bone, rip through skin, shouldn't we be looking at other aspects of a piranhas power?


----------



## Round Head (Sep 26, 2005)

wasabi-glow said:


> Ok, finally I got the information about the National Geographic video that was aired where Dr. Brady Barr did bite stregnth on Dogs and animals.. and it proved that PITBULLS don't have the strongest bite out there... maybe this might help with the subject...
> 
> Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic just had a show on (Dangerous Encounters: Bite Force, 8pm est 8/18/2005) where he measured bite forces of many different creatures. Domestic dogs were included in the test.
> 
> ...


One dog in a study does not make it true for all of them.
But I am glad that the APBT did get a low score.
And those who claim to have a dog with a 3500 psi mouth should be subjected to a study of "Small Penis Envy."









I am trying to figure out these fish myself and keep hearing the rhoms labeled as "fin nipper".
For such a secluded massive fish in fast moving waters, I would think they are built as ambushing killing machines. Any trout fishermna here? Where would you find trophy size trout? In deep fast moving waters right? Why do they get so big? Is it because they eat hatching insects or other fish?
Hmmm, for some reasons these big fish are almost always caught on big minnow imitations instead of hatching nymphs. Could it also be true for the large rhoms? This is just my analogy and speculations if it has any value at all.


----------



## mylesc99 (Sep 5, 2005)

The Piranha isn't going to have the strongest bite out there in the wild. I really think that one Piranha's bite could be stronger than the others, even when they're the same exact species. The question really has no answer. I think we can all agree on that.


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Round Head Posted Today, 09:32 PM
> QUOTE(wasabi-glow @ Oct 21 2005, 01:59 AM)
> 
> Ok, finally I got the information about the National Geographic video that was aired where Dr. Brady Barr did bite stregnth on Dogs and animals.. and it proved that PITBULLS don't have the strongest bite out there... maybe this might help with the subject...
> ...


The S. rhombeus teeth (not musculature) are specialized for clipping off fins and fish flesh. (Pygocentrus teeth are broader in width) As full grown adults S. rhombeus will eat whole fish. Much of what you read about rhombs in the home aquarium is the ability of attacking the fins, which is the general diet until full grown adult. At which time, they enjoy the benefit of both types of meals = whole fish, chunks of fish and fins. They are indeed ambush predators and generally are found in very deep flowing water.


----------



## mylesc99 (Sep 5, 2005)

Good information put up by everyone!


----------



## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

Grosse Gurke said:


> You dont need to be able to ID every fish to have an intelligent argument about bite stength.


Did I ever say you did? No. My point was something other.


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

CROSSHAIR223 said:


> and your arguing bite strength??? I know they are not diretly related but you can't Identify a piraya?





> okay you're Discussing bite strength and can't even identify a piraya???


----------



## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

Grosse Gurke said:


> and your arguing bite strength??? I know they are not diretly related but you can't Identify a piraya?





> okay you're Discussing bite strength and can't even identify a piraya???


[/quote]

I guess you did


----------



## mylesc99 (Sep 5, 2005)

What do you guys think is the best video to get about piranhas?


----------

