# BGA again



## petfish (Sep 16, 2005)

For some reason, I noticed that cyanobacteria is lightly covering parts of the sand in my planted tank. For some reason I think they outcompeted the brwon algae as it is starting to disappear, but to my disappointment, replaced with an even nastier algae! First of all my question is does anyone know why this is happening? I have 0 ammonia / 0 nitrites and today I tested nitrates at 5ppm. The first time I noticed the BGA was shortly after I dosed the tank with flourish excel. I dosed it in the morning and later that night is when I noticed the BGA forming. I'm not sure if this is due to something in the excel or if its just a coincidence?
Secondly to combat it, I lowered the water level in my tank so that my canister filters output can send more oxygen into the tank. I lowered the tank temp to 86 instead of 90 (its a discus tank) so that more oxygen can be retained as I've read that cyanobacteria dont like highly oxygenated water. It is a pain in the rear to try and siphon it out of the bottom since it is sand. So my question is can I just bury it and let the beneficial bacteria in the sand take care of it? or does it not work that way? Also Ive actually broken up the "clumps" of BGA with my fingers to make it smaller, so that the newly influx of oxygen particals from the filter can maybe effect the smaller pieces better than the big pieces and destroy it. Does it work that way, or did I just screw myself even more?
Any advise would be greatly appreciated. I've battled this thing before and didnt have much luck. So if theres any nutrients I need to deprive or try any methods you may know that works I WILL DO IT! I dont want to lose again.

Thanks.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

here are some peoples thoughts on this:

"Algae Description: BGA is technically not an algae but more of a bacteria that has the capacity to photosynthesize just like other algae or plants.

It looks like a thin blue/green (it has also been reported as being black/purple) layer that can cover about everything in the tank or be localized on just the gravel for example. It comes off very easily, usually in thin slimy sheets.

Some people also say that it has a rotten smell if you take it out and smell it. 
How to Treat: It has been postulated that the cause of a BGA breakout is lack of Nitrates in the aquarium.

But to get rid of the existing BGA, two different types of treatment are available:

- Erythromycin (antibiotic) treatment.
- 3 or 4 day *complete* blackout (tank covered, not just lights off).

Remember to make sure your Nitrate levels are above 0 mg/l (10-20 mg/l is best) or the BGA will just come back."

"I have noticed that BGA tends to coincide with a lack of nitrAtes in my tanks. To remedy, I have done a couple of things:

1) Increase nitrAtes to 15-20 ppm.
2) Add "algae-busting" plants.
3) Dose Erythromycin at 2/3rd full dose.
4) Add small powerhead to increase water flow over affected area."

"Like @tom, I had recurring BGA outbreaks when I first started in this hobby, right after I installed my first 'real' lighting system. Erythromycin does work well, at much lower doses (1/2 easily) than published on the label for disease treatment. For me, however, the long term cure was regular water changes. I had been aiming for a LOW maintenance tank, and was doing changes on the order of 10% once a month. I switched to 20% a week, and unless I slack off and miss a bunch, I never have a problem."


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

Petfish,

Cyanobacteria can compete with algae, they may even cover and suffocate it.
It is common to have on sand or gravel. It is , however very easy to remove. But it grows back in favourable conditions in hours.

Yes you may have nitrate concentration of 5 ppm (though many nitrate tests are not so accurate), but some Cyanobacteria can live without nitrater and also without ammonium. These are capable of fixing atmospheric gaseous nitrogen (N2). So in a low nitrate conditions, where other needed nutrients are available (phosphates, magnesium etc.) they have a competitive advantage over plants that need nitrogen.

And of course as a photosynthetic group they need carbon dioxide or other carbon source, which explains why the use of Seachems Flourish Excel helps also them. You do need to give food for your higher plants (nitrate level has to over 5 pp, preferably closer to 20 ppm), otherwise you simply leave resources for algae or BGA.

The aeration does not help at all. Most Cyanobacteria are very aerobic. There are even species that do well in a clean current. Also I cannot imagine any reason why nitrifying bacteria would outcompete BGA. Most BGA do need nitrates. And most importantly no BGA will die simply because there are nitrates. They can only be outcompeted by higher plants. To do this you need to give emphasize on creating them a fine environment.

And lastly, here is some more info on blue-green bacteria (Cyanophyta).

_Cyanobacteria although also called blue-green algae are not related to any algae; they are bacteria that are capable of photosynthesis. They do not have a membrane-bounded nucleus. Cyanobacteria are unicellular, but can also be colonial or filamentous. They can be planktonic (free-floating) like coccoids Nostoc and Anabaena can fix gaseous nitrogen into ammonia (NH3), which is then ionized to ammonium (NH4). Nitrogen fixation takes place in specialized cells, called heterocysts. These Cyanobacteria are important symbionts of lichens and some plants (Azolla in rice cultivation).

Cyanobacteria are extremely widespread: they are present in both freshwater and marine environment as well as in the Antarctic under several meters of ice. In aquariums blue-green algae blooms are related to high phosphate concentrations and basic, high alkalinity (KH) water.

It is interesting to know that, the chloroplasts in algae and higher plants resemble Cyanobacteria and are thought to have been endosymbiotic Cyanobacteria. In fact they are the ancestors of the plants.

Cyanobacteria use chlorophyll a and phycocyanin bound to protein called phycobilins (bluish or greyish forms) for photosynthesis. They may also have phycoerythrin (red species like Oscillatoria and Spirulina) or chlorophyll b (bright green forms) as photosynthetic pigments. In favourable conditions when phosphates and nitrates are abundant, they bloom rapidly. Nitrogen fixing species do not even need nitrates. During blooming some species like Anabaena and Nodularia also produce toxins (hepatotoxins) into the water._

Regards,


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## petfish (Sep 16, 2005)

So in order to keep BGA away, Its actually better to have higher nitrates around 20ppm? I have been changing water a little overboard the past week ( 25% daily!) due to all the talk about lower nitrates able to make my red plants redder. So I had 0 nitrates for a few days. That probably explains why it was so easy for them to take over.I will have to just try and "relax" and not do so many changes lol. Does erythromicin destroy the biological filter? cause I have no other tank and Discus' are super sensitive to ammonia and nitrites if I had to cycle the tank again. So if it does, then thats not an option I can take at the moment. So what are the best "Algae busting" plants that I can get? I will do a 3-4 day blackout if I dont see the problem getting better. Then I will maintain a higher range (than what I had) of nitrates so hopefully it wont come back. Any more suggestions for what particular nutrients I should try and starve out of the tank? Or ones I should add more of so my plants can maybe try and outcompete the BGA?

Ive noticed that the bga doesnt seem to form around the base of my plants in the tank, but more in the open space areas. Do you think adding more plants would help?


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## channafreak (Mar 27, 2004)

Great information in the above posts. I also have been battling the cyanobacteria for about a month now. After changing daily water and lots of elbow grease it was time for something more drastic. In my 55 I have 3 filters running that allow for a huge amount of water movement. I didnt want to disrupt my bioload so I went for the 4 day blackout. Used blankets and towels in layers to completely cover the tank. It has been almost 2 weeks now and the BGA hasn't been back. I also put in a lot of fast growing plants like crypts, elodea, java fern, vals. After another couple of weeks Ill decrease the filtration a bit and see how that works out. Just like a virus it may never go away completly but will only come back if you give it favorable conditions. Dont overfeed and add plenty of water movement. If your bulbs are pretty old too then maybe change them out. Good luck.


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

petfish said:


> Any more suggestions for what particular nutrients I should try and starve out of the tank? Or ones I should add more of so my plants can maybe try and outcompete the BGA?
> 
> Ive noticed that the bga doesnt seem to form around the base of my plants in the tank, but more in the open space areas. Do you think adding more plants would help?


Do not try to starve anything. This is because the higher plants still need the most complicated combination of macro and micronutrients. Starving one of those will only harm them. On the other hand Cyanobacteria do not need pretty much else than phosphates, nitrates (except the species fixing nitrogen) magnesium, and potassium.

Yes add more fast growing plants.

Your higher plants competes the best way if they have all they need.

Usually Cyanobacteria need light. That is why they do not grow under big leaves. Also the presence of a well growing higher plant may hinder them. Yet some speceis grow well on plant leaves.

Regards,


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## petfish (Sep 16, 2005)

Ok heres my battle plant then to win this time! Im going to do a complete blackout for 4 days, increase my waters circulation. I have a fluval 404 for a 60 gal, so that should give it a whirl at full blast. Should I still continue to does furtilizer for the plants or hold off on them?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

petfish said:


> Ok heres my battle plant then to win this time! Im going to do a complete blackout for 4 days, increase my waters circulation. I have a fluval 404 for a 60 gal, so that should give it a whirl at full blast. Should I still continue to does furtilizer for the plants or hold off on them?


I would skip the blackout, remove the BGA manually, up the nitrates, (and make sure they don't fall under 10ppm) make sure all other nutrients are in there, get some hornwart or some other fast grower, and have patience and trust that the higher nitrates and having all the other nutrients at good levels will destroy your problem..

I found that if you keep on taking it out manually at the first sign of it, and add nitrates when it is low, you should get over this problem in no time


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> [I found that if you keep on taking it out manually at the first sign of it, and add nitrates when it is low, you should get over this problem in no time


Yes I also believe this is usually enough.

Regards,


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

harrykaa said:


> [I found that if you keep on taking it out manually at the first sign of it, and add nitrates when it is low, you should get over this problem in no time


Yes I also believe this is usually enough.

Regards,
[/quote]


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## petfish (Sep 16, 2005)

Thank you guys for the Awsome info! I think I have the knowledge to take this thing on naturally this time instead of nuking it in the past. I'm glad you guys actually gave me ways to try w/o resorting to meds. It'll take more time, but it would be worth it. I guess i'll feed the fishes less, more often so that I can try and raise the nitrate level in the tank. I'm already thinking about adding more plants to the tank, so I'll pick some up. I'd have to stay away from the hornwort and combombas though, cause for some reason they just shread in my tank.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

petfish said:


> Thank you guys for the Awsome info! I think I have the knowledge to take this thing on naturally this time instead of nuking it in the past. I'm glad you guys actually gave me ways to try w/o resorting to meds. It'll take more time, but it would be worth it. I guess i'll feed the fishes less, more often so that I can try and raise the nitrate level in the tank. I'm already thinking about adding more plants to the tank, so I'll pick some up. I'd have to stay away from the hornwort and combombas though, cause for some reason they just shread in my tank.


get some flourish nitrogen quick.. dont wait for your fish to raise your nitrates.. disaster in waiting.. I figure if the nitrates get too high, you always have to do water changes anyway. I do them once a week 90% of the time.
just use your test kit to raise it to 15ppm or so, then let the fishes take care of the reast, and do your weekly water change..
you will be suprised how fast plants eat nitrates..


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## petfish (Sep 16, 2005)

I tested my water today after 3 days w/o water changes, and my nitrates actually lowered from 5ppm to 0 or very close to it!! I dont know if this is due to my plants taking up all the nitrates or is this due to the bga fixing the nitrogen?? What or how do I know if the BGA is fixing the nitrogen? I hear this term alot but I'm not too sure what it really means. I have been feeding them like 3 times a day and no water changes, I dont know how it lowered instead of raising?! 
Unfortunately no lfs here in Phoenix, AZ that I know of sells flourish nitrogen. We dont get much of a selection out here. I might have to order it, but even then it'll probably take a couple of weeks before it arrives. After I tested the water today I tried to feed the fish a cube of frozen beefheart cause I remember the last time I fed that, the nitrates skyrocketed to about 40ppm in about 24 hrs. I dunno, kinda a desperate attempt. Is there anything else I can try for the meanwhile that will raise the nitrate level?

Ok since I cant get any flourish nitrogen here, i was wondering if theres anything I may be able to pick up at the home depot plant dept. that might make the same effect?


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

I dunno, kinda a desperate attempt. Is there anything else I can try for the meanwhile that will raise the nitrate level?

Ok since I cant get any flourish nitrogen here, i was wondering if theres anything I may be able to pick up at the home depot plant dept. that might make the same effect?
[/quote]

Hi Petfish,

I think that 5 ppp of NO3 is already quite a low concentration and plants start to slow down the growth at that level. No they are not able to put it down to zero, but this more of an academic matter, because the accuracy of the test kits is simply not enough to confirm this. So I doubt NO3 can never be at true 0. Nitrogen fixing does not mean taking out NO3. Read the following.

_About nitrogen fixing among the Cyanbobacteria._

Nostoc and Anabaena can fix gaseous nitrogen into ammonia (NH3), which is then ionized to ammonium (NH4). Nitrogen fixation takes place in specialized cells, called heterocysts. These Cyanobacteria are important symbionts of lichens and some plants (Azolla in rice cultivation).

To raise the NO3 level is really not a difficult task. In a Piranha tank it is just the opposite. You see all feedings and actually keeping a living organism is an aquarium will produce ammonia/ammonium. Then the nitrifying bacteria make nitrates from it.

Regards,


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## petfish (Sep 16, 2005)

Well as far as the test goes, it may not be at perfect 0ppm but it must be close to it cause the color of the tested water came out bright yellow (which in my test says that it is 0ppm) It might just be the plants that are using it up too quickly. I know that it seems easy enough as you say to raise nitrates, by just feeding and letting the biological bacteria convert ammonia to nitrates. However, it IS difficult because thats what I have been doing and with no water changes. Ive been feeing about 3-4 times daily (small feedings of course). Under any normal circumstances the nitrates should have been way up there. I dont know how it could have lowered the nitrates instead of raising them as its supposed to.
As far as how cyanobacteria fixes the nitrogen, you'll have to break it down "Barney style," to me cause I appreciate the explaination but I just dont really understand it. So does it even effect my nitrate readings?

..BTW thank you guys much for helping me through this tough problem. I really do appreciate your responses. It helps me learn a little more each time about how to combat this thing. With all the different conflicting advice I've read about on the web, I'd rather put my trust in you guys who have fought this thing before and won.


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

1) _As far as how cyanobacteria fixes the nitrogen, you'll have to break it down "Barney style," to me cause I appreciate the explaination but I just dont really understand it. So does it even effect my nitrate readings_

Nitrogen fixing Cyanobacteria (blue-green algae) are capable of fixing atmospheric nitrogen gas N2 (derived from your room air for example) into ammonium (NH4). Well the ammomium is as such a plant nutrient so they can use it up. Some plants even prefer this and under such condotions they do not use as much nitrates (NO3) from the water. Also nitrifying bacteria (present in every aquarium and especially in the bio media of external filters) do use up ammonium (NH4) and produce in the presence of oxygen (O2) nitrates (NO3).
Summa summarum: Cyanobacteria can increase the level of NO3, but this is only marginal and perhaps not even measurable unless your tank is full of lets say Nostoc or Anabaena, which by the way also produce liver toxins into the water.

2) _Under any normal circumstances the nitrates should have been way up there. I dont know how it could have lowered the nitrates instead of raising them as its supposed to._

Feeding and keeping living animals in a tank does not lower the NO3 content, but it will raise it.
Do as Dippy suggested and use nitrogen fertilizers.

Regards,


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

bro, listen to Harry and get a bottle of nitrogen before you quit the hobby because of all the algea problems 
I would like to see you successful!


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## petfish (Sep 16, 2005)

ok Dippy and Harry, I've been dosing potassium nitrates religiously for the past 2 weeks. I sometimes even have to dose it twice a day cause my nitrates are being sucked up so quickly.I have tested the water constantly to keep it at around 15ppm like you guys suggested. I finally got ahold of a phosphate test kit too and low and behold, my phosphate levels were off the charts high! It appears that the ph reducer I had been using contains a ton of phosphates so I stopped using it. Now I have had 0 or very close to 0 phosphates from my plants sucking it up and around 15ppms of nitrates. The cyanobacteria is starting to turn a dull turquoise color instead of the color it was. Also instead of appearing like slime with little bubbles coming off (as it looked before), it now looks like old cobwebs is the best that I can describe it. When I try to remove a piece of it with my fingers it just mostly breaks apart easily instead of being clumps like it used to. My question is what does this mean? Am I winning or is it something else?


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## BigChuckP (Feb 9, 2004)

petfish said:


> ok Dippy and Harry, I've been dosing potassium nitrates religiously for the past 2 weeks. I sometimes even have to dose it twice a day cause my nitrates are being sucked up so quickly.I have tested the water constantly to keep it at around 15ppm like you guys suggested. I finally got ahold of a phosphate test kit too and low and behold, my phosphate levels were off the charts high! It appears that the ph reducer I had been using contains a ton of phosphates so I stopped using it. Now I have had 0 or very close to 0 phosphates from my plants sucking it up and around 15ppms of nitrates. The cyanobacteria is starting to turn a dull turquoise color instead of the color it was. Also instead of appearing like slime with little bubbles coming off (as it looked before), it now looks like old cobwebs is the best that I can describe it. When I try to remove a piece of it with my fingers it just mostly breaks apart easily instead of being clumps like it used to. My question is what does this mean? Am I winning or is it something else?


Sounds like your winning the battle, I'd take out as much BGA as you can and continue keeping your NO3 high. Your going to run into other problems if you allow PO4 to bottom out like it has, the algae that shows up when your PO4 is low is Green Spot Algae. Dose some PO4 as soon as you can and keep it around 2ppm, high PO4 is better than low


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## petfish (Sep 16, 2005)

BigChuckP, should I wait a little bit before adding the phosphates to let the green spot algae gain the upper advantage over the cyanobacteria? Right now I am hardly noticing any type of algae at all except the few remaining webs of cyanobacteria that I still have to clean off. I'd much rather deal with the green spot algae in my tank than that repulsive bga again!


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## BigChuckP (Feb 9, 2004)

petfish said:


> BigChuckP, should I wait a little bit before adding the phosphates to let the green spot algae gain the upper advantage over the cyanobacteria? Right now I am hardly noticing any type of algae at all except the few remaining webs of cyanobacteria that I still have to clean off. I'd much rather deal with the green spot algae in my tank than that repulsive bga again!


I wouldn't allow algaes to take each other out because then you'll still have algae! Adding PO4 will not affect your battle with the BGA. Just continue to watch your NO3 and PO4 levels. I have battled BGA as well and I feel your pain.
Green spot algae (GSA) is a horrid algae to fight as well, I am fighting it right now and have been told it may never disappear off of my background even if my params are in check. This algae is a hard spotted green algae that fixes onto plants, glass and other things like my bg and filter intake tubes and it is not easy to scrape off.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

BigChuckP said:


> BigChuckP, should I wait a little bit before adding the phosphates to let the green spot algae gain the upper advantage over the cyanobacteria? Right now I am hardly noticing any type of algae at all except the few remaining webs of cyanobacteria that I still have to clean off. I'd much rather deal with the green spot algae in my tank than that repulsive bga again!


I wouldn't allow algaes to take each other out because then you'll still have algae! Adding PO4 will not affect your battle with the BGA. Just continue to watch your NO3 and PO4 levels. I have battled BGA as well and I feel your pain.
Green spot algae (GSA) is a horrid algae to fight as well, I am fighting it right now and have been told it may never disappear off of my background even if my params are in check. This algae is a hard spotted green algae that fixes onto plants, glass and other things like my bg and filter intake tubes and it is not easy to scrape off.








[/quote]

Great posts Chuck..








I hope you can sandpaper that GSA off of your excellent background!!


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## petfish (Sep 16, 2005)

So is my nitrates ever going to naturally go up again or am I going to have to dose it for as long as I have this planted tank? Its getting to the point where I dose it to approx 20ppm when I get off work at around 4am, and by 1pm its down to almost 0ppm nitrates already! I looked at the Bga that was growing on my tanks background today and it definitly looks alot darker and duller in color. Something must be happening to it as it is not growing back like it used to after a cleaning.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

petfish said:


> So is my nitrates ever going to naturally go up again or am I going to have to dose it for as long as I have this planted tank? Its getting to the point where I dose it to approx 20ppm when I get off work at around 4am, and by 1pm its down to almost 0ppm nitrates already! I looked at the Bga that was growing on my tanks background today and it definitly looks alot darker and duller in color. Something must be happening to it as it is not growing back like it used to after a cleaning.


They will not naturally go up in the tank, unless you have lots of dirty fish. I thought my compressus could keep up with my plants consumption of nitrate, and i was sadly mistaken! 
Keep the nitrates up my friend


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