# Bare bottom aquarium!



## Alexraptor

Just wanted to tell u all that a bare bottom aquarium using that as a permanent home(other than quarantine and birth)
is a bad thing.
reasons:
Fishes can get Stressed.
Some fishes dig in the gravel and eat particles there.

feel free to add more reasons ppl


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## Innes

difficult to cycle, looks poor, cant plant plants very well, stresses fish too much, you can see all of the crap in the tank.......

IMO - only good for shows - and still would be better with gravel


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## dracofish

I have bare bottoms in all my tanks. The fish are not stressed, the tanks are always perfect as far as water quality goes, and they are extremely easy to maintain. With the amount of tanks I have, ease of maintenance is a must. Besides, almost every one of my tanks has a Stingray in it, and with a bare bottom I don't have to worry about their bellys getting irritated.

Have any of you actually kept a bare bottom tank for an extended period of time? Don't knock till ya try it!


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## Alexraptor

erm the point of keeping a aquarium partially is to have fishes and to recreate part of their natural enviroment.


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## thomisdead

I had a bare bottom while I was changing gravel. That was a mistake. I thought my Red Belly was gonna kill himself while he was attacking his reflection.


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## Innes

dracofish said:


> Have any of you actually kept a bare bottom tank for an extended period of time? Don't knock till ya try it!


 I had a small one with goldfish and an axolotl - I didn't like it one bit


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## dracofish

Markosaur said:


> erm the point of keeping a aquarium partially is to have fishes and to recreate part of their natural enviroment.


 That's quite a condtradiction right there. Many people are guilty of keeping fish from various locales together. Do you plan on recreating all the different environments in one tank? Also, the key word is TANK. You will never be able to recreate that fish's natural environment, unless you plan on rereleasing it into the wild.

The point of keeping an aquarium is to keep the fish healthy and happy, for your enjoyment. I enjoy my fish, not the tank they are in. I don't need flashy plants and decorations because my fish stand out on their own.

If you've seen pictures of my fish you can tell that they are quite healthy and have no problems living in a tank with a bare bottom.


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## Innes

I think that their is some confusion here.

by barebottom tank I am meaning one with no gravel or other substraight - not just without plants and caves.


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## piranha45

I keep gravel because the tank/fish look prettier with it, IMO

There are lots of experienced aquarists out there including dracofish who don't use it, though.


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## dracofish

Innes said:


> by barebottom tank I am meaning one with no gravel or other substraight - not just without plants and caves.


 Yup, and I'm one of them...no substrate whatsoever, although I keep some PVC tubes for my fish that like to hide such as the Black Ghost.

As far as a bare bottomed tank not cycling well...if you have adequate filtration there should be no problem. Most of your bacteria live in the filter, not the gravel. If your filtration is inadequate, then of course your tank will "mini cycle" when you remove the substrate.


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## TimmyTeam

whats the fun in that...just seeing them sit in a tank u dont even get to see how the would behav normally with hiding spots...and plats and rocks look really nice,IMO the funnest part about a tank is setting it up and making it look nice.


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## dracofish

This tank is impressive enough without decorations...









And this is what a closeup of the inhabitants looks like. I'd say they're plenty happy:









And apparently none of you have ever kept a Stingray. They need lots of open places...and that means going light on decorations!


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## dracofish

Oh, and here's yet another bare bottomed tank with a couple Stingrays, a P. leopoldi and P. orbignyi.










This is the only one of my tanks that doesn't have a painted blackground. That will change soon enough. The inhabitants look plenty happy to me, especially that Black Ghost in the corner that's grown 6" in the past 5 months.

Oh, and notice that the bottom looks clean and is free of debris, contrary to what someone said earlier. Bare bottomed tanks stay cleaner because nothing has a chance to settle. It all gets sucked up by the filters.


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## Alexraptor

no offence but gravel and sand makes most fish happier and calm.
not even at my local fish store to they have bare bottom tanks.
also remember that some fishes feed of bacteria and organisms that live in the gravel.
Ok your fish might not be stressed but that dosent mean that the rest of fishes around the world arent.
ive seen fish panic and die in such tanks(a friend of mine)
they advise sometimes against too light gravel. well just imagine how a bare bottom is. it reflects even more light.
and lol stingrays dont normally see the bottom lol.
but they do like to dig around and hide themselves


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## piranha45

Markosaur said:


> no offence but gravel and sand makes most fish happier and calm.
> 
> also remember that some fishes feed of bacteria and organisms that live in the gravel.
> 
> Ok your fish might not be stressed but that dosent mean that the rest of fishes around the world arent.
> ive seen fish panic and die in such tanks(a friend of mine)
> 
> they advise sometimes against too light gravel. well just imagine how a bare bottom is. it reflects even more light.
> 
> and lol stingrays dont normally see the bottom lol.
> but they do like to dig around and hide themselves


As she is demonstrating to you, fish can obviously acclimatize themselves to no substrate

So what if fish sometimes eat stuff on the gravel? So long as you put food in their tank, the fish are more than welcome to eat stuff from wherever they please rofl.

Just because your friend had no luck with keeping fish in a substrate-free environment doesn't mean other people can't, as Draco is showing.

uh, so what if it reflects more light? It doesnt look like Draco's fish are going blind from it lol

As you apparently didn't notice, Draco said gravel damages a ray's skin.

I really think you are being pretty close-minded about this


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## dracofish

Markosaur said:


> they advise sometimes against too light gravel. well just imagine how a bare bottom is. it reflects even more light.
> and lol stingrays dont normally see the bottom lol.
> but they do like to dig around and hide themselves


 LOL, it doesn't reflect light if you have your bottom painted black! LOL

My Stingrays never hid even when I had them in tanks with substrate.


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## dracofish

piranha45 said:


> As you apparently didn't notice, Draco said gravel damages a ray's skin.


 It doesn't necessarily irritate their undersides, but it can. I don't like to take the risk.


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## bobme

i just want my fish to feel more at home, even though they are stuck in a damn glass / plastic box


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## Alexraptor

lol usally u keep sand with rays as substrate.
sand and a few roots and not to many plants(they will dig em up lol)


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## piranha45

http://kingsoftheaquarium.com/freshstingray.htm

_Another important consideration that goes along with water quality is substrate. The best type to use would be sand, because Rays have delicate undersides and will bury themselves in it. This is part of their natural behavior. The downside is that sand will clog quickly and cause ammonia problems. Medium sized, smooth gravel won't clog as easily, but the Rays wont' be able to bury themselves in it. If gravel is used, only enough to cover the bottom of the tank should be added. The easiest, of course, is no subrstrate at all.* The only problem with this* is that the Rays won't get traction and will "skid" around a little_

also, if you look at his photos, about half the pics have rays with no substrate


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## Alexraptor

I still say substrated is better than a bare tank for fish overall

as well as plants.
plants do not need to be fancy. they may not be needed for the fish themselves but it helps the water quality in aquariums. and plants give more oxygen to the water.


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## piranha45

Markosaur said:


> I still say substrated is better than a bare tank for fish overall
> 
> as well as plants.
> plants do not need to be fancy. they may not be needed for the fish themselves but it helps the water quality in aquariums. and plants give more oxygen to the water.


alot of the larger more popular fish specimens such as piranha and cichlids will often eat/destroy live plants, and so keeping them is frequently not practical. I had some amazon swords in with pacus, and those didn't last a week. Any plant that's put in my cichlid tank doesn't last 3 days. Makes for nothing but an expensive salad bar for the fish.

Oxygen is already easily provided for with airpumps/filters, and if you have any evidence to actually back up how plants "help the water quality", I'd like to see them.


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## Alexraptor

plants is part of maintaining a stable balance in the aquarium as well


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## accr

I would have to say no grav is the way to go. All my tanks have no gravel what-so-ever.

Yes, at first first will go nuts seeing their reflection but it's just a part of their acclimatization to their new environment.

In my P tank, I kept no gravel coz it prevents little fish bits from falling through the rocks and mold there. No amount of grav-vac can fully clean them out.

In my Cichlid/TSN tank, I kept no gravel to keep down the aggression of the RD. With gravels he'll just dig all day long(I know they ARE suppose to, but hey...) and become very territorial and accept no tankmates of any kind. And the TSN will just suck up mouthful of sand/rocks whenever he attacks.

BTW, with no gravels... if you plan your filter/water outlet/powerhead in such a way, all the poops will get sweep into a central area. Then you'll only have to vac that circle "poop area". I think this minimize any shock to the fish when you do ya tank maintenance.


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## piranha45

Markosaur said:


> plants is part of maintaining a stable balance in the aquarium as well










now you're just making a fool of yourself. Don't start an argument if you don't know how to even participate in one, kid.


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## Alexraptor

well do dude, works for me.

Gravel/Substrate aquarium is the way to go.
i see how some of u say its EASIER to clean such aquariums with no gravel . well if u ask me its just pura laziness


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## pcrose

Draco that is a sweet tank and how many do you have|?


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## piranha45

well I'm glad to see we've narrowed this issue down from being an "Alleged Fact" to "Personal Opinion"


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## accr

Markosaur said:


> i see how some of u say its EASIER to clean such aquariums with no gravel . well if u ask me its just pura laziness


 Yes...I AM lazy....

when you have to change water after every meal(their meal in fact)... hell yes you'll be lazy


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## DonH

There will always be a debate on this subject, but you can not say that a planted tank is better than a bare bottom tank. It boils down to personal preference. A bare bottom tank does NOT cycle any slower than a decorated tank (assuming both were not initially seeded). We have already established in a million posts that a majority of the nitrifiers reside in the filter media not in the gravel or decorations. Another myth, is that their reflection might stress them out... They can NOT see their reflection from within the tank. We see our reflection because we are looking through TWO panes of glass (principle of refraction). You can always reduce glare by painting the bottom of the tank. Some migt argue that people keep bare tanks because they are lazy, but the hardest working fish hobbyists (discus breeders in my opinion) keep bare tanks. These are the same people who do daily water changes and feed their grow out fry many times a day. Why? Because it guarantees the best possible water conditions for healthy fish. Ever wonder why many hobbiest that keep expensive fish that require pristine water conditions (like rays, discus, asian arowanas) usually have them in bare tanks?







One final comment... many of us are guilty of overstocking their tanks. You are more likely to be successful in overstocking a bare tank than you would a tank with gravel and decor. No matter how well you clean it, there's always crap in there.

I have both types of tanks. I prefer the bare bottom tanks. But that's just my personal preference...


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## thomisdead

> Another myth, is that their reflection might stress them out... They can NOT see their reflection from within the tank.


 Don H.

You positive about that? If so, why do they freak out when first put into a bare bottom tank?


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## DonH

Yes I am... If you have any doubts, try looking down from the top of a bare bottom tank. What do you see? The color of the aquarium stand, not a reflection of yourself.

Not all fish "freak out" when put into a bare bottom tank. I'm not a fish psychic so I can't tell you for sure, but my guess is that the fish are not accustomed to a bare bottom tank will try to dive deeper to avoid predators (us). Without gravel to establish a true bottom, the fish will panic with their head pointed downward... looking like they are chasing their reflection but actually trying to get away from the threat (us).


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## thomisdead

I don't have or know anyone who has a bare bottom tank, so I can't try that out. But that's a pretty good theory, and you know mopre about this stuff than I do. So I'll take your word on it!


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## JesseD

i keep one bare bottom tank and my rhom is fine. it is all personal preference.

bare bottom tanks are WAY easier to maintain better water conditions.

and like DonH said...your fish cannot see their reflection







. try looking at the bottom of your tank (if u have a bare bottom tank) straight down from the surface of the water. u will see no reflection.


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## dracofish

piranha45 said:


> http://kingsoftheaquarium.com/freshstingray.htm
> 
> also, if you look at his photos, about half the pics have rays with no substrate


 LOL, that's my site...


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## piranha45

_fuckin' A _









well I guess that just helps your credibility eh


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## Olson

I have kept both before,I like the look of a substrated tank but in keeping rays the bare bottom seemed to work the best and also easier to maintain.Peices of fish waste or un eatin food are easier to clean out on a bare bottom tank so it is easier to keep your water pristine that way but......I did not like the look so I went with a fine sand substrate just before I got my new Leopoldi awhile back.Everytime I have introduced a new ray they bury themselves for quite sometime,I am assuming they do this to feel safer and as much as Rays cost i will do whatever it takes to keep them calm during the acclimation process.I dont think substrate is a necesity though but a ornament


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## Alexraptor

DonH i must disagree with u.
ok you look down into the water correct? and you see what you say you see.
but do you have any idea on how it looks under water? or if U see it the same under water it does not mean the fishes dont.
Fishes are not humans, their eyes arent the same as ours and their brains arent. consider that bafore saying fishes see no reflections.

Dont say it before youve been one(a fish)


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## Innes

I believe that fish feel happier with a dark substraight below them as they feel more hidden from aggressors (you)


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## DonH

Markosaur said:


> Fishes are not humans, their eyes arent the same as ours and their brains arent. consider that bafore saying fishes see no reflections.
> 
> Dont say it before youve been one(a fish)


And YOU are saying that the fish see their reflection because YOU see their reflection right?









BTW, I wrote this in my previous post:


> I'm not a fish psychic so I can't tell you for sure


but I do understand the laws of physics... do you?

I'll give you an example that uses common sense... An aquarium has 5 glass sides right? (4 walls, and the bottom) If the fish gets spooked when we approach the tank, can we "assume" that they see a big object approaching them (us)? Now look through the front pane of glass into the side pane of glass. What do you see? A reflection of the fish! Exactly the SAME thing you see when you look thorugh the front pane of glass into the bottom of a bare bottom tank... a reflection. Does this mean that they see their reflection off all 5 sides of glass?

Markosaur: You can disagree with me. That's fine... but use solid reasoning besides the fact that I'm not a fish. To the best of my knowledge, you are not one either, so how can you comment?


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## piranha45

DonH said:


> Markosaur: You can disagree with me. That's fine... but use solid reasoning besides the fact that I'm not a fish. To the best of my knowledge, you are not one either, so how can you comment?


 yes that seems to be a recurring problem with him; he _doesn't have_ any solid reasoning, and he already admitted this is nothing but a matter of personal opinion anyway


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## Innes

lighten up on the kid - he is just 15


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## piranha45

ill shut my mouth when he does


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## thoroughbred

BOTTOM LINE DOWHAT U WANT ITS QUITE OBVIOUS EITHER WAY IS AN OK WAY TO GO PERIOD THE TOFE HAS SPOKEN LOL AND BTW ILL TAKE DON H OPIONION 'S OVER A 15 YR OLD LOL HE IS A "EXPERT"


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## Poseidon X

I completely disagree with this. When keeping most fish that do not show very much different in appearance between the two its easy to confuse gravel as the better choice. The difference in my flowerhorns with and without substrate demonstrated for me just how bad a substrate is for fish tanks. Tons of food that the gravel vac doesnt always get sits on the bottom. With bare bottom tanks, most of that stuff is stired up by the fish which is then taken in by the filter.I have lava rock in bags which provide all the bio filtration i need, plus they dont get a bunch of junk in them.. My new setup has the entire back 3/4 of the tank covered in fancy plants mats, and the other 1/4 is covered with a few large black river rocks.

almost nobody keeps flowerhorns or arrowanas in tanks with substrate.


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## black_bullet

Barebottom tanks have a purpose and place in the hobby. For breeding systems, and delicate fish mainly. Because the tank can be kept spotless...no waste...no debris to settle. As far as fish getting stressed and so on....you paint it...they wont know the diffrence...well burrowers would but most other fish couldnt care less. Breeders of marine fish rarely rarely use any form of substrate so water is kept extremely clean...this alone should prove that if its painted that the fish dont get stressed







Of course tanks generally "look better" with substrate and plants and wood and all that crap...but fact is...they dont care if its a bare tank with PVC pipe.


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## Alexraptor

also food remains and crap from the fishes that ends up in between the gravel breaks donw in a diffrent way.
no gravel tank all the ammonia gets out.
in a gravel tank there r small bacterial organisms wich take care of the food and crap and break it down in a way less harmfull for fishes


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## piranha45

Markosaur said:


> also food remains and crap from the fishes that ends up in between the gravel breaks donw in a diffrent way.
> no gravel tank all the ammonia gets out.
> in a gravel tank there r small bacterial organisms wich take care of the food and crap and break it down in a way less harmfull for fishes


 ...you done making an idiot out of yourself yet?







Jesus christ man I sure am glad I'm not naive enough to take you seriously


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## dracofish

Markosaur, in a bare bottom tank nothing stays on the bottom long enough to break down and cause ammonia. If you look in my pictures, you will see that there is not detritus on the bottom of the tank. Anything that ends up there is stirred up by the water flow or fish and then is sucked up by the filters.

And as far as you thinking that having gravel will take care of ammonia from leftover food, boy are you wrong. One important thing is that the bacteria need oxygen to do their work properly. There's very little water flowing through that gravel (unless you have a UG filter, but that's not part of this argument), so very little actual work is being done down there. Clogged gravel is probably the No.1 cause of ammonia spikes in an aquarium. In fact, when I had gravel, I could never get my readings quite to zero. I would take a sample of water from inside the gravel and it would always have the teeniest bit of a reading (i'm talking about .1 to .2 ppm). The reading would stay the same no matter how many water changes I did, and I do alot. I did and still do 75% weekly with heavy gravel cleanings. Anyways, even that small of a reading in the gravel (a sample taken from anywhere else in the tank read 0) was not acceptable to me, especially since I have Stingrays. That is part of the reason why I chose to lose the substrate.

Now before you go saying that I didn't clean my tanks enough, go take a sample of your water. Not from the surface or even from midwater. Take it from inside the gravel. You will see what I'm talking about. If you need help getting a sample from down there, use the plunger from a hypodermic needle. It works great for sucking up water samples. I can almost guarantee that you will have a reading.


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## accr

dracofish said:


> ...in a bare bottom tank nothing stays on the bottom long enough to break down and cause ammonia. If you look in my pictures, you will see that there is not detritus on the bottom of the tank. Anything that ends up there is stirred up by the water flow or fish and then is sucked up by the filters.


 That's what I've been telling my buddies....but none of them believe me.


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## DiXoN

well i must say i have learnt quite a bit in this thread as i have always had gravel exept for 1 tank which i added gravel after a day due to my p's going nuts.
i never though of any of this until now.
nice one


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## Neoplasia

Markosaur said:


> also food remains and crap from the fishes that ends up in between the gravel breaks donw in a diffrent way.
> no gravel tank all the ammonia gets out.
> in a gravel tank there r small bacterial organisms wich take care of the food and crap and break it down in a way less harmfull for fishes


 Please tell me you're joking. Because that's the funniest thing I've read yet.







You don't _need_ substrate, if you have proper filtration having things in the tank for bio-filtration isn't required. That's why we use filters. Ok so you prefer substrate, good for you, that doesn't make you right and other people wrong it just means your *OPINION* on this subject differs. Personal preference does not equate correctness.


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## acestro

Largely an aesthetics issue but maintenance and water quality can be improved
with bare bottom tanks. The key is to have some surface area somewhere for your filtration (which everyone here has).



> Another myth, is that their reflection might stress them out... They can NOT see their reflection from within the tank.


I've seen the 'diving down for deeper water' behavior but I've also seen reactions
to reflections. This occurs when there is black or darkness on the other side of the glass bottom (same fundamentals in how a mirror works). Sit in a lit room at night and look out your window; you'll probably see a reflection...

Trust me, I know about reflections with those jumpy barracuda :nod:


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## bobme

I cant belive this topic is still going.


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## garybusey

I think your all Missing the point. Dracofish has no P's No? So a bare bottom tank for Non P species is ok. I don't do it, but hey, IT'S not bad for them!


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## DonH

acestro said:


> Another myth, is that their reflection might stress them out... They can NOT see their reflection from within the tank.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen the 'diving down for deeper water' behavior but I've also seen reactions
> to reflections. This occurs when there is black or darkness on the other side of the glass bottom (same fundamentals in how a mirror works). Sit in a lit room at night and look out your window; you'll probably see a reflection...
> 
> Trust me, I know about reflections with those jumpy barracuda :nod:
Click to expand...

 It depends on how you define "reflection". A mirror uses a highly reflective chemical (silver nitrate or whatever) to produce a CLEAR reflection that a bare bottom tank does NOT have. If I were to use your example of sitting in a lit room, looking out into the dark and seeing a reflection, have you ever enjoyed watching your fish at night in a dark room? They're pretty calm aren't they? They are in a lit aquarium looking out into a dark room so they should see their reflection and panic right? Do they?


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## o snap its eric

Just give it up draco and donh. Some people tend not to listen and learn the hard way if htey have to. IMO substrate optional. YOu like it then do it. If not then dont. Simple as 1-2-3.


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## o snap its eric

My ray tank has 3/4 substrate and 1/4 bare bottom because my rays wanted that. they pushed sand around to the way they like it.


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## acestro

> It depends on how you define "reflection". A mirror uses a highly reflective chemical (silver nitrate or whatever) to produce a CLEAR reflection that a bare bottom tank does NOT have. If I were to use your example of sitting in a lit room, looking out into the dark and seeing a reflection, have you ever enjoyed watching your fish at night in a dark room? They're pretty calm aren't they? They are in a lit aquarium looking out into a dark room so they should see their reflection and panic right? Do they?


I would define a reflection as being able to see yourself!







I'm not arguing against bare bottom tanks, just saying (like Innes was) "relax, the kid isn't completely wrong". And, for the record, I never said anything about seeing their reflection and panicking. I just said the reflection is there. Depending on the fish in a dark room they can be calm, I think they either get used to it or don't care.
But look outside a window at night and tell me what you see....


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## MR HARLEY

either or is good but giving them something like ther natural habitat is always good


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## acestro

Any other thoughts? Or is the dead horse beaten?
I think I closed it too soon...I'm new.


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