# Sanchezi and reds



## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Has anyone here done a cohab or know anyone who has? two 4'' reds and a 5'' sanchezi in a 75/80g tank? Just thoughts, my chezi will probably kill them, but they are all use to small tanks. I want to get rid of all these small tanks I have around. Just thoughts.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Death will occur.
Not enough room IMO....


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

You dont think 80g is enough for 3 fish of that size.. So what should I do, I just need to reduce tanks.

I have a 4'' red in a 44g tank. I have a 4'' red in a 29g tank. I have a 5'' chezi in a 29g tank.

I would like to get rid of 2 or all 3 of those tanks. And put all 3 fish in the 80g tank, in a cohab, or divide the tank. (length ways or right down the middle)


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Malawi- said:


> You dont think 80g is enough for 3 fish of that size.. So what should I do, I just need to reduce tanks.
> 
> I have a 4'' red in a 44g tank. I have a 4'' red in a 29g tank. I have a 5'' chezi in a 29g tank.
> 
> I would like to get rid of 2 or all 3 of those tanks. And put all 3 fish in the 80g tank, in a cohab, or divide the tank. (length ways or right down the middle)


I think tank size is ok for 3 fish of that size-
Just not the serra/pygo combo though-Will need more room.

Look on craigslist-Buy bigger tank-

Sell fish you dont want anymore.

Only choices I really see-Dividing the tank isn't a good option IMO-Anything can happen and lead to death of either fish.....


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

I agree with AK. It will end up another failed pygo/serra cohab.


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## Armand_caribe (Sep 9, 2009)

Hi.

I knew about this guy in Mexico who was keeping a Sanchezi along with a rbp's shoal, he said they where getting along just fine although who knows for how long such a cohab can last.

Regardless I agree with what AKSkirmish has spotted on.

Good luck.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Won't need the luck, because I'm not gonna cohab them.. I probably wouldn't even try with a 125g+. Oh well.

Edit: This most and my next are, opposites. Funny how things change..


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

So the 125g comes tonight.. I'm gonna try the cohab. 1 red belly. 1 sanchezi. I'm going to heavily plant it and add some bogwood. Strong current, good filtration, dim lights, warm water and natural gravel (not sand this tank, due to the undergravel filter).

I know the chances, so wish me luck-not much more to it.


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## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

toss in some cons as dither fish preferably all males or females if you want to increase your chances. just make sure the cons are smaller then the red and sanchezi.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

ok AS fan, that sounds good, I was going to add some small quick fish but you think cons are the best fish to have in there? And how many should I put in there, like 10-20?


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## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

yea i would say at least 10. i say cons because they are cheap and a decent food for your P's if they do eat them which they will lol. also they are easy to breed so easy to replace. just dont put a male and a female in the main tank. put one sex in the tank so the cons dont get aggressive toward the P's its worked for me in the past. but if you have other small quick fish that works too.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Okay, but it would be great if I could get them to breed in the tank and stay alive for a month to three months each batch so they can grow and always be a contant supply of food for the two piranhas. Also, if I get them small, 1-3'' somtimes the colors are not distinctive yet, so I might just have to get a netful of cons. I am not worried about the sex, if they get to bully the piranhas like cons are known for, I will take them out or the breeding pair, and the sanchezi wouldn't tolerate that anyways. Ideally, they cons stay hidden and do their own thing, breed and keep the piranhas attention. Sanchezi claims one side, red claims (subject too) the other side.. I think I will put them in a bag next to each other while I acclimate them and put them in the same bag then add them at the same time. Will be a fun experiment.


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## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

you dont want them breeding in the tank trust me. ive been there done that before. just keep two a side and put them in a 10 gallon or something like that and you toss in a flower pot and wait a little bit and you will have plenty of cons to toss in by the time they kill the first 10- 20 in the tank. even at 1 inch it should be easy to sex them once you look at them enough and make sure they are fed right. the females start showing color after a good meal for a day or two even at 1 inch
Edit: just toss a male and a female in a bucket with a flower pot no filter and i bet you still will have them breed. you might not even have to dechlorinate the water. lol not dechlorinating the water is a joke...everything else is true.


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## jamesw (Jan 28, 2009)

I wouldnt put the two piranhas in 1 bag. One is likely to get injured, badly.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

I have seen other peoples tanks where they have cons actively breeding and creating a natural source of food and I really like the thought of that. But I will have to see who has cons by me.

Okay, maybe I won't. I just keep them next to each other in seperate bags. I just want them to see each other before put into the tank.


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## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

honestly they will be so stressed in the bag it prob wont make a difference if you put them in the same bag for a couple minutes but i could easily see them attacking each other in the bag too.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

I will make up my mind tonight. Still trying to debate if this is going in my living room or bedroom. My apt. is pretty small. And there is already a 29g and 75g in the living room and a 44g and 29g in my bedroom...


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## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

you always got space in the kitchen!!!!


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Uh... Not this apartment.









I will take pics of everything tonight and post the progress.


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

Good luck buddy.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Thanks, I will take some pics and maybe video.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Save the heads, they make great trophies.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

IMO....you would have a better chance in an overstocked zero decor tank then an uderstocked one heavily planted one.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

GG, overstocked with what. Please explain that last post more.

There is one red belly in there now. I am putting in the sanchezi tonight or tomorrow.

I am also putting in ditchers tonight or tomorrow too. Either danios, cons, goldfish or something else cheap.

It is obviously 2 fish in this tank is understocked, what changes would you suggest. Either the two fish won't bother each other because of the size and less fish, or they will because its either "him" or the other. I don't know how the aggression will be like with only two, if anything, the sanchezi will slowly be the agresser until the red has no space, and can only be nipped anywhere it goes.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

First...I would not suggest putting the sanchezi in there....but if I were going to try something like this....I would overstock the tank, not understock it. IMO...pygos are more comfortable and less aggressive in an overstocked tank. They dont set up territories and fight for space the way they do in an understocked situation. So if I carry that premises forward...and sanchezi hang out with pygos in the wild...they would blend in better in an overstocked environment then one that is understocked. So in a tank like a 125...I would probably start with 15-20 six inch nattereri and a sanchezi or two. The sanchezi can spread their fin nips around the group so one fish doesnt get picked apart...and they would have a better chance of blending into the group. Obviously this is just my opinion….and I dont know what would ultimately happen in the tank….but I think an overstocked tank would have a better chance at working then an understocked tank. No matter how much space you put between a sanchezi and a nattereri….they will find each other….and it wont be pretty.


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## Armand_caribe (Sep 9, 2009)

Grosse Gurke said:


> First...I would not suggest putting the sanchezi in there....but if I were going to try something like this....I would overstock the tank, not understock it. IMO...pygos are more comfortable and less aggressive in an overstocked tank. They dont set up territories and fight for space the way they do in an understocked situation. So if I carry that premises forward...and sanchezi hang out with pygos in the wild...they would blend in better in an overstocked environment then one that is understocked. So in a tank like a 125...I would probably start with 15-20 six inch nattereri and a sanchezi or two. The sanchezi can spread their fin nips around the group so one fish doesnt get picked apart...and they would have a better chance of blending into the group. Obviously this is just my opinion&#8230;.and I dont know what would ultimately happen in the tank&#8230;.but I think an overstocked tank would have a better chance at working then an understocked tank. No matter how much space you put between a sanchezi and a nattereri&#8230;.they will find each other&#8230;.and it wont be pretty.


It does make sense.....:nod:


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## Murphy18 (Oct 17, 2008)

I cohabed my 4.5'' Sanch with 6 x 5-6'' captive reds. This worked in a 4x2x2 100g tank, mildy planted, for almost 5 weeks. Sanchez (his name) would mingle with them at first, and they didnt seem to mind eachother. Sanchez eventually went to one side of the tank, and then that was it, that side was his, no questions asked, he would bite the first fish to enter his side. So i thought i would let it go for a bit longer, obviosuly keeping a close eye on them each day and when i could. By now the reds had learned their lesson, not to enter his territory and would just act like normal not seeming to be under any stress etc... Anyways, the Sanchezi ended up the KING of the tank. Kinda weird because when i would be infront of the tank, observing, they would both be minding their own business, then when i went out of sight of them, i would watch and the Sanchezi would swim up and down the front of the tank, whilst the reds would stay in their side, again, didnt seem to mind they would just act like normal reds. Sanchez then took over the whole tank, where he would stay in the centre of the tank, and anybody that even came close to him would get bitten and/or chased. The reds then learned their lesson again, so each morning when the lights would be on i would see them all huddle up in the same corner. I could clearly see that both were stressed, so i put the divider back in and now sanchez just stares through at them, like he missed his chance to take them out, kinda creepy







. The only damage was no tail fins for 2 reds and a few little nips here and there, which all healed in no time.

Just thought id share, sorry for the long post.


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## Armand_caribe (Sep 9, 2009)

Murphy18 said:


> I cohabed my 4.5'' Sanch with 6 x 5-6'' captive reds. This worked in a 4x2x2 100g tank, mildy planted, for almost 5 weeks. Sanchez (his name) would mingle with them at first, and they didnt seem to mind eachother. Sanchez eventually went to one side of the tank, and then that was it, that side was his, no questions asked, he would bite the first fish to enter his side. So i thought i would let it go for a bit longer, obviosuly keeping a close eye on them each day and when i could. By now the reds had learned their lesson, not to enter his territory and would just act like normal not seeming to be under any stress etc... Anyways, the Sanchezi ended up the KING of the tank. Kinda weird because when i would be infront of the tank, observing, they would both be minding their own business, then when i went out of sight of them, i would watch and the Sanchezi would swim up and down the front of the tank, whilst the reds would stay in their side, again, didnt seem to mind they would just act like normal reds. Sanchez then took over the whole tank, where he would stay in the centre of the tank, and anybody that even came close to him would get bitten and/or chased. The reds then learned their lesson again, so each morning when the lights would be on i would see them all huddle up in the same corner. I could clearly see that both were stressed, so i put the divider back in and now sanchez just stares through at them, like he missed his chance to take them out, kinda creepy :laugh: . The only damage was no tail fins for 2 reds and a few little nips here and there, which all healed in no time.
> 
> Just thought id share, sorry for the long post.


Hi mate.

Nice exp. sharing Murphy, quite illustrative. One could think that the reds could shred apart that sanchezi as the latter one is outnumbered by the formers but it is the sanchezi who rules the tank though.....

Interesting.









Cheers.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Yeah good info. About the 15-20 reds, that only worries me because if they wanted to kill and devour the 1-2 sanchezi they could easily. I will have to see. Ditchers will be in there. I will put the sanchezi in tomorrow or something when I figure it out. Anymore info on this or ideas/suggestions.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Malawi- Posted Today, 05:51 PM
> Yeah good info. About the 15-20 reds, that only worries me because if they wanted to kill and devour the 1-2 sanchezi they could easily. I will have to see. Ditchers will be in there. I will put the sanchezi in tomorrow or something when I figure it out. Anymore info on this or ideas/suggestions.


Since you asked for more information, enjoy the read: The Tub

And Dave Schleser experience in the Public Aquarium.


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## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

hastatus said:


> > Malawi- Posted Today, 05:51 PM
> > Yeah good info. About the 15-20 reds, that only worries me because if they wanted to kill and devour the 1-2 sanchezi they could easily. I will have to see. Ditchers will be in there. I will put the sanchezi in tomorrow or something when I figure it out. Anymore info on this or ideas/suggestions.
> 
> 
> ...


thats the link i was looking for lol.


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## Us And Them (Dec 4, 2008)

That documentation was very interesting to read , shame it had such a tragic ending.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Even if you sanch doesn't kill the reds there will be a lot of nipped fins


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> CrazeeJon Posted Yesterday, 10:57 PM
> That documentation was very interesting to read , shame it had such a tragic ending.


The idea behind my doing this project was to document and illustrate natural behavior of the species. I already knew the outcome, but with documentation reasonable people would take it to heart and learn from it. Those that wish to try to make natural behavior unnatural are welcome to try at the fishes risk.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Fish is going in tomorrow. Will post updates.

Edit: "tomorrow" as in today when I wake up.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

UPDATE:

1330 hours red belly hiding behind wood.

1331 hours added sanchezi to tank.

sanchezi hid behind another peice of wood.

1333 hours swam to the red, spooked him, and he went flying.

1334 hours sanchezi swimming around a bit.

1335 hours found each other again, red following sanchezi.

1338 hours red back to piece of wood as the sanchezi explores some more.

UPDATE 1340 HOURS.

both fish contine exploring. will update later and post pics tonight.


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## philbert (Mar 8, 2007)

hastatus said:


> Save the heads, they make great trophies.


hahaha great advice for anyone doing cohabs like this. i gotta agree 2 is just a bad number when it comes to Ps they have nothing else to focus their attention on.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Here are some updated pics.

From when my chezi was in the 29g she never swam, just hide behind the sword plant, now she swims back and forth. Not a waste of tank at all.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)




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## Murphy18 (Oct 17, 2008)

That red looks pretty beat up already, i dont think thats a good idea. Especially if theres only 1 red and the Sanch is bigger than it. You will regret losing one of them. How many reds are there?


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

The red only has nipped fins that are healing which were caused by the other red. I sold that other red. There is only ONE red and ONE sanchezi.


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## Murphy18 (Oct 17, 2008)

So has the Sanch just been hanging out in that corner all the time? with the red swimming around like in the vid?

I dont know for sure but i would guess that the red is stressed out maybe? The chances are you wake up tommorow to find the red gone, which is reallly sad.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

No they both swim back and forth. Neither of them are stressed out right now. But perhaps, night time they are more active. And if you see that hut, the red can fit in it but the sanchzi can't if it ever needs a place to hide at night.


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## Murphy18 (Oct 17, 2008)

Like in the video, if the red is swimming around like that, imo, the Sanch might see it as a nice little snack. To me that red looks tiny compared to the sanchezi, good luck with this though i guess.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

I went to the LPS and they had no fish, so I think I may drive into town (15 miles one way) and hit up a real pet store so I can get some ditchers. Like you say, get their attention on something moving that is not a piranha and that way it gives them a chance to hunt together.


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## jamezgt (Jun 24, 2008)

Hope everything goes good! Keep us updated, hopefully both fish would make it!


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

I hope both fish will make it too. Both fish show a bit agression towards each at times, sometimes they don't even care they touch. I just put in some ditchers and 3 convicts. Hope this helps a bit.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Tank is doing great. Both fish show no more aggresision then you would see with a pygo tank.


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## primitive (Sep 12, 2009)

a fish store in vancouver had 8 reds and 4 sanchezis in the same tank ( guy thought sanchezis were red belly pygos) so they were being kept alltogether for over 8 months , until the day i bought them ( sanczs) but they were doing fine together. But if death occurs , i think pygo will take a bite out of a sanchezi than other way around, 
but who knows


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Thanks for the comment, what size of tank did he have them in? Perhaps but since the sanchezi is bigger I think she would kill or do the most damage other than the red that is 2'' smaller. I have seen them both guard their territory, both do some chasing. Their favorite spot of the tank is the opposite side from the powerhead, chezi on backside of wood and red on frontside of (same) wood. Only one day in, so not much more can be said... I think this setup has potential though.


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

That red looks beat up bad, and he looks stressed. Not working. Not enough reds.


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

that red does look a lil beat up...Is that from the sanchezi....I wouldn't risk it and I'd seperate both those fish.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Like I said, the red was minor nipped fins that are healing PREVIOUSLY casued by the red belly it was with.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2009)

First off its dithers not ditchers :rasp:

And when I first saw this thread with your nice new tank and saw you were putting in a single red with a sanchezi, I had a feeling disaster would soon follow. Until you can get a couple more same sized reds and grow them to the same size as the Sanchezi I would place a divider in the tank before letting them "shoal" together.


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

i find some people amazing after being told by a scientist that it dont work, I mean Frank even stated that in the documentation that he did in a 150 gallon tub, that he already knew the outcome, but he did it to try and save people from trying it and loosing there fish. How dumb do you have to be.

Its so stupid it would be like saying im just so confused why my great white shark ate my dolphin, i mean who would of thought it, they get along great in the ocean. There both predators i really thought they'd get along great.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words.

Lets close this thread.


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## Us And Them (Dec 4, 2008)

NOOOO f*ck that.
Keep going .


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Red has been removed and added into a 29g planted tank. (the tank the sanchezi came from) I guess my lady chezi will be spoiled in this large tank ALL alone with only 3 convicits to keep her company.


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

Gave up already?


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Members are not happy and from what I know, I'm somewhat respected here. Just decided to give the tank to the sanchezi and cons and not create anymore risk for the people who collect piranhas









Atleast this whole "expirement" got me a new tank!


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

Prolly a good idea...The only way i see it having somewhat LIMITED success is if its heavily planted with dithers and more reds of the same size...Even at best it may only be temporarily. You did a smart thing by seperating them and its prolly for the best interest of both.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Yeah yeah... So lets fastward to 2011 when my sanchezi will be 7''-8''









The chezi has yet to eat a dither fish.


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

yea hopefully it gets that big...It looks like you feed it very well. It would be a shame to lose either P so I'm glad you did what was right. I've read and seen so many mixed cohabs and in the end they all end up in loss or severe injury. Like hastatus says serras are solo parasitic fin nippers and pygos are a pack hunter and when you put those two together, it will only last for a period of time.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

It will get that big. Now it actually swims so that will help a ton. She has already grown about 2'' since last november. She is doing great and I see a big fish in the making and she loves this tank though she is still getting comfortable. I have not offered her shrimp yet as I am giving her a week to acclimate to the new tank. I understand what most members here think, I was mainly trying to reduce tanks and combine fish. I would have tried a pair or more chezi's in the tank I cannot come across them easily.


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

Thta's all right dude. At least you tried, and then did the right thing when it wasnt working.


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## philbert (Mar 8, 2007)

over already? you should get something bigger for the 125. sanchezi grows mad slow and wont fill out the tank.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Pretty much all serrasalmus grow slow, she will eventually fill out the tank. Yeah it is over, and since I removed the red belly, the red is doing horrible. Great!


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

What do you mean horrible?


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## philbert (Mar 8, 2007)

this is the oddest thread. that sanchezi is only going to max out around 7-8 inches. no offense your logic doesn't make sense. you put a red that grows faster, has a higher bio load, and can be cohabed into your 29 gallon? to keep the slower growing solo kept sanchezi in the 125 gallon? why not get a shoal of reds? and keep the sanchezi in the 29 gallon? a tank that is much more suited for a serra than a pygo. imo a 7-8 inch fish doesn't fill out a 125 gallon. what are you going to do with the red?


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

Philbert you and me think a lot alike


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Demon Darko said:


> this is the oddest thread. that sanchezi is only going to max out around 7-8 inches. no offense your logic doesn't make sense. you put a red that grows faster, has a higher bio load, and can be cohabed into your 29 gallon? to keep the slower growing solo kept sanchezi in the 125 gallon? why not get a shoal of reds? and keep the sanchezi in the 29 gallon? a tank that is much more suited for a serra than a pygo. imo a 7-8 inch fish doesn't fill out a 125 gallon. what are you going to do with the red?


A 7-8'' fish can fill this tank easily.. You don't need a 10''+ fish to fill a tank and if thats what you think, your wrong. I am not putting my 6'' sanchezi back into a 29g tank, that is to small and if you think she should go back into that tank and leave the 4'' red in the new tank, well your wrong again. I do not want a shoal of pygos right now and my plan for the red if it even lives (being treated right now) will be kept solo or sold. As for my sanchezi, I like her in this big tank and I know she likes it. My belief is these beautiful fish deserve and need more space than what we give them. Sadly, people are told 29g tanks can house most Serrasalmus species for life... I think there is more logic to everything that has happened. No offense taken.


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

I think a couple of species would be all rite in the 29G, but keeping a sanchezi in a 125G does seem like alot IMO. Theres really no rules to how big the tank has to be. If it were me and I had that solo red, I'd either sell it or keep it in the 125G with more reds. I'd try to find a 40G breeder or something of those dimensions for the sanchezi because that would suit it more. Plus I'm not a big fan of the footprint of the 29G.


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## philbert (Mar 8, 2007)

Malawi- said:


> this is the oddest thread. that sanchezi is only going to max out around 7-8 inches. no offense your logic doesn't make sense. you put a red that grows faster, has a higher bio load, and can be cohabed into your 29 gallon? to keep the slower growing solo kept sanchezi in the 125 gallon? why not get a shoal of reds? and keep the sanchezi in the 29 gallon? a tank that is much more suited for a serra than a pygo. imo a 7-8 inch fish doesn't fill out a 125 gallon. what are you going to do with the red?


A 7-8'' fish can fill this tank easily.. You don't need a 10''+ fish to fill a tank and if thats what you think, your wrong. I am not putting my 6'' sanchezi back into a 29g tank, that is to small and if you think she should go back into that tank and leave the 4'' red in the new tank, well your wrong again. I do not want a shoal of pygos right now and my plan for the red if it even lives (being treated right now) will be kept solo or sold. As for my sanchezi, I like her in this big tank and I know she likes it. My belief is these beautiful fish deserve and need more space than what we give them. _*(how does that apply to the red) *_Sadly, people are told 29g tanks can house most Serrasalmus species for life... I think there is more logic to everything that has happened. No offense taken.
[/quote]

a fish shouldn't die from being moved 3 times in 3 days.

whatever floats your boat. what you do with your tank is your deal just a suggestion thats all. obv you cant argue that bigger is better for a tank. i dont think that a sanchezi is good for life in a 29 gallon.

i never said you need a 10 inch plus fish. i suggested a shoal of rbps. which probably isn't going to be a shoal of 10" fish.

oh yeah, another observation. in your sig you say patience is the key. doesn't seem to me like you were very patient with this.


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

There is nothing wrong at all with keeping the sanchezi in the 125, but it will not fill out the tank at all. Sorry friend, YOU are wrong.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

No species is good in a 29g for life.. Well I see school just got out for you young guys, lol... My Sanchezi looks fine in the tank, and when she grow some more it will be just perfect. I didn't buy this tank to get a shoal of pygos, I bought this to sell my 3 small ones and merge everything into this one. Though the cohab was not working so I stopped it. My more prized fish gets the tank, the red does not. I am not buying more fish or more tanks. So I hope this is clear.There is no such thing as a tank to big but there is a rule for a tank being to small. Phillbert, your right patience is the key but I am not going to be patient on a cohab when I can see signs of aggression so that voids your comment. Patience is the key to success.


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

Evidently school's still in session for you. What the hell do you think the phrase "fill out" means? A big ass tank like that with a 7"-8" fish is filled out to you? There's nothing wrong with it, and your sanch will love it, but the tank won't be filled out. Bottom line.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Yeah it will be fine. A shoal would outgrow the tank so I wouldn't want to go down that route. Only 3 or 4 could live in there for life. Ever since removing the red my sanchezi has been hiding up in the corner behind the plant, UGF tube and powerhead, I think she misses the red. Yet to eat a dither.. And as for the one fish and big tank, call it what you want, but she has a good home like what she deserves.


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

She will def. love that tank man. But not so sure about her "missing" the red.


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## JustJoshinYa (Mar 25, 2006)

nothing wrong with a big tank, i just got a 100G for my sanchezi and its a big tank for a small fish, and still too small IMO,

although i think the "cohab" was a bit ill conceived and may have some degree of "success" had it been properly attempted with more reds.


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

I completely agree with you. If there were two or three more reds, I believe it would of had a better shot.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Demon Darko said:


> nothing wrong with a big tank, i just got a 100G for my sanchezi and its a big tank for a small fish, and still too small IMO,
> 
> although i think the "cohab" was a bit ill conceived and may have some degree of "success" had it been properly attempted with more reds.


You did too? Have you posted any pictures of the tank and your chezi? I like lots of room, more room the better. Sometimes its okay to overstock, but I like to understock my tanks, with exceptions. Yeah more reds may have been better, but like I said I was just working with what I got. Maybe this will be attempted again but for now the tank belongs to her and the cons.


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

Due to to your arrogance and your know it all attitude i beleive you have host alot of respect in the duration of this topic.


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## philbert (Mar 8, 2007)

Malawi- said:


> No species is good in a 29g for life.. Well I see school just got out for you young guys, lol... My Sanchezi looks fine in the tank, and when she grow some more it will be just perfect. I didn't buy this tank to get a shoal of pygos, I bought this to sell my 3 small ones and merge everything into this one. Though the cohab was not working so I stopped it. My more prized fish gets the tank, the red does not. I am not buying more fish or more tanks. So I hope this is clear.There is no such thing as a tank to big but there is a rule for a tank being to small. Phillbert, your right patience is the key but I am not going to be patient on a cohab when I can see signs of aggression so that voids your comment. Patience is the key to success.


so the red gets the 29gallon for life? void my comment? haha thats funny.


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

just mt 2 cents but he probably like the chezi more b/c its more rare, if you would even call it that, plus the red dont mean that much to him just my speculation.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

philbert said:


> just mt 2 cents but he probably like the chezi more b/c its more rare, if you would even call it that, plus the red dont mean that much to him just my speculation.


You are correct, it is more rare, its wild and bought online, hence more money... Reds are easier to come by over here and I didn't spend more than 5 bucks for the red I have, making it less valuable and therefore, does not get my vote to get the new tank all alone. Just because it is less money or less rare doesn't mean it gets a crap home (none of my fish do) but in this case, since the cohab did not work, the red is in a 29g tank for the time being...


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Ba20 said:


> Due to to your arrogance and your know it all attitude i beleive you have host alot of respect in the duration of this topic.










Were you trying to say "Due to your arrogance and your "know it all" attitude, I believe you have lost a lot of respect in the duration of this topic" ?

I think respect has nothing to do with this, threads are intended to share information, experiences, etc.. to get help and make the best decision. In this case, both arrogance and a "know it all" attitude is irrelevant because I tried a cohab and took members suggestions/advice and called a end to the expirement.. Most threads have some controversy and debates but people who engage in these topics know the difference between right and wrong and I believe the post you made (the one above at 11:02A) falls into the wrong category. With all respect, keep your smart comments to yourself, this thread was ONLY intended to talk about a cohab that turned out not to work, like most members thought.. Thanks for your understanding.


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## philbert (Mar 8, 2007)

Malawi- said:


> just mt 2 cents but he probably like the chezi more b/c its more rare, if you would even call it that, plus the red dont mean that much to him just my speculation.


You are correct, it is more rare, its wild and bought online, hence more money... Reds are easier to come by over here and I didn't spend more than 5 bucks for the red I have, making it less valuable and therefore, does not get my vote to get the new tank all alone. Just because it is less money or less rare doesn't mean it gets a crap home (none of my fish do) but in this case, since the cohab did not work, the red is in a 29g tank for the time being...
[/quote]

so you might be patient with the red and keep it, but you said you aren't going to buy any more tanks. so i figured you meant that if you keep it and aren't going to buy any more tanks or fish that it would get the 29 gallon. did i miss something?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

1. I applaud Malawi for reaching the proper conclusion.

2. You cannot keep the Amazon River in your home, so any large suitable tank for piranha is acceptable. Even a 100g tank is small for S. sanchezi, yet that if you wish to see your fish grow to its potential, then you've gotten off to a good start. However, if you have no desire to see your fish in a more realistic setting other than decorative, then go with the smaller tank that you can afford, while leaving the fish plenty of room to swim and exercies.

3. This thread is deteriorating fast. For those that suggested adding more reds with that S. sanchezi, I assume you have done this before and were "successful" or you are just going by "opinion" with no substance?

Just curious.


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

> Were you trying to say "Due to your arrogance and your "know it all" attitude, I believe you have lost a lot of respect in the duration of this topic" ?


Wow nice to see you passed 4th grade english, I cant believe you did all of that over a me makeing a typo and leaving parentheses out. Anyways i'll leave you alone so i dont have to endure anymore of your childish attempts to belittle me.

Anyways as i said above your "Due to your arrogance and your "know it all" attitude you will continue to remove anyones doubt of how smart you are. if you really want to



> get help and make the best decision


If you really ment this you wouldnt of told philbert


> well your wrong again





> whatever floats your boat. what you do with your tank is your deal just a suggestion thats all.


This wouldnt of ben said if you wouldnt have taken offense to his "Help"



> I think there is more logic to everything that has happened. No offense taken.


Well if you had any logic, or common sense you wouldnt try and co-had a 6" chezi and your baby red

Everyone is trying to help you, if your not going to listen or accept it please dont ask and please go else where this board doesnt have time for people like you.
And im sorry if i left a few comma's out.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

hastatus said:


> 1. I applaud Malawi for reaching the proper conclusion.
> 
> 2. You cannot keep the Amazon River in your home, so any large suitable tank for piranha is acceptable. Even a 100g tank is small for S. sanchezi, yet that if you wish to see your fish grow to its potential, then you've gotten off to a good start. However, if you have no desire to see your fish in a more realistic setting other than decorative, then go with the smaller tank that you can afford, while leaving the fish plenty of room to swim and exercies.
> 
> ...


1. Thanks, I appreciate it.

2. I agree with this 100%. This is how I see it, which is why I have no problem with 1 piranha in a somewhat large tank. But everyone has their own prefrences. Some may say there is no right or wrong, but to some extent I think it can be "right" but in a way be cruel.

3. It is deteriorating fast, sadly. I been trying to fix it but I think your post will help put it in the right direction again, so thank you.

I look forward to see who responds as I am curious too. I think there are several possibilities, but I am thinking that this 5' tank is to small for a cohab in general. But lets continue this topic of S.Sanchezi cohabs.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

hastatus said:


> *First...I would not suggest putting the sanchezi in there*....but if I were going to try something like this....I would overstock the tank, not understock it. *IMO*...pygos are more comfortable and less aggressive in an overstocked tank. They dont set up territories and fight for space the way they do in an understocked situation. So if I carry that premises forward...and sanchezi hang out with pygos in the wild...they would blend in better in an overstocked environment then one that is understocked. So in a tank like a 125...I would probably start with 15-20 six inch nattereri and a sanchezi or two. The sanchezi can spread their fin nips around the group so one fish doesnt get picked apart...and they would have a better chance of blending into the group. *Obviously this is just my opinion&#8230;.and I dont know what would ultimately happen in the tank*&#8230;.but I think an overstocked tank would have a better chance at working then an understocked tank. No matter how much space you put between a sanchezi and a nattereri&#8230;.they will find each other&#8230;.and it wont be pretty.


I have not done this before and am simply tossing out what I would do if I was to try this out. IMO...one of the major mistakes people make when trying to keep these fish together is understocking the tank....just an opinion though Frank


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> have not done this before and am simply tossing out what I would do if I was to try this out. IMO...one of the major mistakes people make when trying to keep these fish together is understocking the tank....just an opinion though Frank


Your opinions are always interesting to me :laugh:

Understocking helps prevent disease and parasites, including less stress. Over stocking produces........well you get the message.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

So hastatus you are for understocking or overstocking? Or is this something you have a rule for and try to have it just right.

I can understand why people overstock pygo tanks and I think it looks great but is it really different when we are talking about pygos, serras and cohabs?

All opinions are appreciated.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Malawi- Posted Today, 09:13 PM
> *So hastatus you are for understocking or overstocking? Or is this something you have a rule for and try to have it just right. *
> 
> I can understand why people overstock pygo tanks and I think it looks great but is it really different when we are talking about pygos, serras and cohabs?
> ...


Its not a rule per se, it is a natural law. Growded fish equal parasite/disease problems, any specialist in fish husbandry will tell you that. The reason why some view overstocking as successful is because the fish have little room to manuever and they are kept in a a high stress situation which is not a healthy, natural environment. Again, it is my opinion shared by many in proper care of animals. If your goal is to have as many piranhas as possilbe to make it look natural, you are only dealing with 2% of naturalness (1%=tank size; 1% dealing with quantity of fish). The other 98% which is healthy conditions or naturalness is wasted.

I don't advocate for mixing species, never have never will because my concern is for the fishes welfare. First and last. But if you choose to go the other route, then so be it. I'm not the one buying the fish. I just advocate what I believe is proper care. The rest is up to you all to decide to agree or disagree. And if you disagree, back it up with well established facts, not opinions. In the case of mixing fin biters with non-finbiters, its self-explanatory. One will eventually kill the other. Perhaps not immediately, but somewhere down the line it will happen because by nature piranhas are unpredicable. What is predicable is the outcome when things go wrong.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Well said. Well I hope I will have success with my sanchezi growing to a good size and having my cons spawn in the tank. That would make me happy if they bread and constantly have fry growing up in the tank. As for the cohab, I understand you point of view and agree. I think most members feel that way.. Maybe not the best expirement but was attempted and ended. Probably would have had more luck with two or more sanchezi in the tank. Wouldn't mind breeding them one bit.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Malawi- Posted Today, 10:41 PM
> Well said. Well I hope I will have success with my sanchezi growing to a good size and having my cons spawn in the tank. That would make me happy if they bread and constantly have fry growing up in the tank. As for the cohab, I understand you point of view and agree. I think most members feel that way.. Maybe not the best expirement but was attempted and ended. Probably would have had more luck with two or more sanchezi in the tank. Wouldn't mind breeding them one bit.


What you are proposing is a much more natural life cycle than just tossing in goldfish. Good luck and keep posting.


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

A chezi cohab, now that will be pretty frickin cool


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Its not a rule per se, it is a natural law. Growded fish equal parasite/disease problems, any specialist in fish husbandry will tell you that.  The reason why some view overstocking as successful is because the fish have little room to manuever and they are kept in a a high stress situation which is not a healthy, natural environment.


I am not talking about grossly overstocking a tank...I am saying that every pygo tank (over 100 gallons) I have kept or observed, looks healthier with fish stocked at 10 gallons per fish rather than 20 gallons. Obviously I am talking about average size pygos. It is not about limiting the ability to maneuver...it is about not allowing the fish set up territories and having them act like a group rather then a few individuals.


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Yeah sanchezi cohab would have been easier I think, just didn't have anymore-Since I was working with what I had... Has anyone here done a sanchezi cohab? I have read the ones on OPEFE. Thanks.

It won't be to difficult to keep my sanchezi tank clean thats for sure, 1 fish in that amount of water fed every so often...

I think overstocking does work no question but the tank condition and health of the fish are a concern..


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> I am not talking about grossly overstocking a tank...I am saying that every pygo tank (over 100 gallons) I have kept or observed, looks healthier with fish stocked at 10 gallons per fish rather than 20 gallons. Obviously I am talking about average size pygos. It is not about limiting the ability to maneuver...it is about not allowing the fish set up territories and having them act like a group rather then a few individuals.


You set the rules in the aquarium and the fish follow them. Interesting view.







What happens if they don't?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Malawi- said:


> I think overstocking does work no question but the tank condition and health of the fish are a concern..


This is exactly why I hate getting into these discussions...everyone is an expert. Does an overstocked tank require more filtration then a 180 gallon tank with one goldfish....yes. Do you need to do more frequent water changes when the tank carries a heavier bio-load....yes. However an understocked tank requires filtration and water changes as well. So the fact that an overstocked tank will require more attention is obvious...and irrelevant to this discussion. Either you maintain your tanks or not&#8230;.

I do find it interesting that you would mention the health of the fish....please explain to me the health concerns in an overstocked tank that do not occur in an understocked tank.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

hastatus said:


> You set the rules in the aquarium and the fish follow them. Interesting view.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you have been around this hobby long enough to understand that there are no rules. Just like the 20 gallons per fish rule is ridiculous. There is a risk anytime you put more then one fish in a tank. 
If you think you can minimize aggression in a Pygocentrus tank by understocking&#8230;fine&#8230;I just happen to believe the opposite is true. Obviously there is more to this then just stocking levels&#8230;.I also believe you minimize aggression by reducing feeding&#8230;.another one of my crazy theories that goes against the established "rules".


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## Malawi- (Oct 21, 2008)

Grosse Gurke said:


> I think overstocking does work no question but the tank condition and health of the fish are a concern..


This is exactly why I hate getting into these discussions...everyone is an expert. Does an overstocked tank require more filtration then a 180 gallon tank with one goldfish....yes. Do you need to do more frequent water changes when the tank carries a heavier bio-load....yes. However an understocked tank requires filtration and water changes as well. So the fact that an overstocked tank will require more attention is obvious...and irrelevant to this discussion. Either you maintain your tanks or not&#8230;.

I do find it interesting that you would mention the health of the fish....please explain to me the health concerns in an overstocked tank that do not occur in an understocked tank.
[/quote]

I have less to worry about and less to maintain with my one fish in my 100g+ tank then I would if I had 10+ piranhas in the tank... The health concerns remain the same but the importance of maintenance increase. My one piranha is less likely to get an infection and is less vulnerable than an overstocked tank. Yes there is still a chance but less likely.. Which is why I said in the previous post, my maintance will be easy with this one fish... I hope that answers your question-I'm in a rush, heading out the door..


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Malawi- said:


> I have less to worry about and less to maintain with my one fish in my 100g+ tank then I would if I had 10+ piranhas in the tank... The health concerns remain the same but the importance of maintenance increase. My one piranha is less likely to get an infection and is less vulnerable than an overstocked tank. Yes there is still a chance but less likely.. Which is why I said in the previous post, my maintance will be easy with this one fish... I hope that answers your question-I'm in a rush, heading out the door..


Not really....but that is fine. I was looking for specific health concerns associated with an overstocked tank that do not occur in an understocked tank. You are simply talking about the bio-load of the tank in relation to the amount of water. Like I said&#8230;the maintenance schedule of a tank is a function of the bio-load&#8230;.so anyone looking to overstock a tank would need to up their maintenance.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Malawi- said:


> My one piranha is less likely to get an infection and is less vulnerable than an overstocked tank.


While I would agree that a solo piranha is less likely to get an infection because the likelihood of a an injury is relatively low. However I would could make an argument that an understocked tank has a greater chance for infection then an overstocked tank simply because I think there is less aggression in an overstocked tank...and therefore less chance of an injury.

What I am talking about is a tank with multiple fish...not a solo tank....and how stocking levels affect the fishes behavior.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> What I am talking about is a tank with multiple fish...not a solo tank....and how stocking levels affect the fishes behavior.


Of course water quality would be the top issue in this case, too much ammonia or pheromone will increase aggression, as will too much rubbing against each other (slime depletion) can invite disease or parasite problems. Parasites are always present in an aquarium even if you don't see them, they are there. Introduction of live bait (gold fish, etc.,) can be the spoiler in overstocking and understocking. Too high of a temperature can also wreck havoc on mulitple fish aquariums. Trying to find the right quantity of fish (single species or even mixed) can be disaterous. Put the wrong temp and bam, you could incur mortalities or damaged fish.



> because I think there is less aggression in an overstocked tank...


Well, its good you think that, but that's just an opinion and not carved in stone anymore than what I stated earlier. Its unpredicable what will happen in either condition. But in simplistic view, its easier to care for one and control the conditions than it is for multiple fishes with different personalities that may or may not gel in behavior (ie; russian roulette). Of course that's just my opinion.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> I think you have been around this hobby long enough to understand that there are no rules. Just like the 20 gallons per fish rule is ridiculous. There is a risk anytime you put more then one fish in a tank.


Sorry, missed this part; A rule is just a "guideline" to proper care. Its not carved in stone, but a common sense approach. As for gallons per fish, it was once thought 1gal for 2 inch fish is sufficient. But with modern advances in fish husbandry, that number of fish can be increased. But like you stated, you must do regular maintenance (water changes, etc.) I have always suggested 40gal min for a single P. nattereri that could reach 1 foot in size. The larger the tank volume for a fast grower like P. nattereri, the greater the chances to see it reach over 10 inches. Some fish like S. rhombeus could be years in a 100g tank to reach 11 inches. That's well documented.

But getting back "to no rules" you have guidelines. That's all. The rest is how you do it and what works for you may not work for others. So my opinion is to take a middle course that is best for the fish in terms of health and growing capacity.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Grosse Gurke said:


> You set the rules in the aquarium and the fish follow them. Interesting view.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you have been around this hobby long enough to understand that there are no rules. Just like the 20 gallons per fish rule is ridiculous. There is a risk anytime you put more then one fish in a tank. 
*If you think you can minimize aggression in a Pygocentrus tank by understocking&#8230;fine&#8230;I just happen to believe the opposite is true*. Obviously there is more to this then just stocking levels&#8230;.I also believe you minimize aggression by reducing feeding&#8230;.another one of my crazy theories that goes against the established "rules".
[/quote]
Agreed


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I agree that nothing is certain in this hobby and that guidelines for newer fishkeepers are important. I also understand that every tank and every fish is different....so what works for one might be disastrous for another.

I was just testing young Mr. Malawi to see if he had health concerns about the fish when overstocking....or if he was just parroting what you (Frank) said earlier in this thread.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> I was just testing young Mr. Malawi to see if he had health concerns about the fish when overstocking....or if he was just parroting what you (Frank) said earlier in this thread.


Polly want a cracker?


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

I agree with Frank AND GG


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