# I Think Hith Is Gettin Worse



## flex fish (Aug 20, 2010)

I've been lookin at my 14" rhom everyday since I bought him because he had hith, fin ront, ammonia burn. I got rid of all the problems with melifix except the hith,
been waiting to do metro+ treatment but my local fish store is out at the moment,more will be in Friday, fish was doin good for a while since melifix treatment now it seems like his hith is getting worse seeing new scares every few days and now it seems like he's breathing harder, he still eating good (like a pig) all food gets injected with vita chem, it seem like he's gettin holes around his tail area and lesions around his face and small spots on his top fin, he leans to the side then straightens up, I just feel like I'm losing him, I still been dosing with salt every water change and gravel vac, ammo and nitrite always at 0, 30% waterchange every Friday when nitrates get to 20 and then 15%to20% on sunday just for the heck of it, feed on Monday and then on Thursday, whole fish, shrimp, large scallops, cat fish, tilapia. I'm mean what else can I do


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

IMO you left out a lot of imformation. Tank size, temp, what your adding for salt. Has it got worse since you bought him? Was previous owner dosing his food too? What filter your using n media that in it, when it gets cleaned. I don't understand why you wait till Friday when nitrates are 20 n then do another waterchange on Sunday for the hell of it? IMO you should waterchange the day after you feed.that is the purpose of vacuuming the tank to remove crap n food bits.your letting them sit in the tank to ferment from monday to Friday. Also fish can contract this in cleanwater, on a fish that fed right.ect. Bottomline no one know for sure what causes this. Some believe its unsanitary conditions. Some say its wrong food. Still others believe its from the carbon some keepers use. Fish that are in good clean water can get it.fish that are in tanks without carbon can get it. I would adjust your waterchanging to the day after feeding,keep with the salt(dose for what your adding not the size of tank)n see if that helps.actually I'd waterchange twice a week(n not one day apart) n cut his food back to once a week. Some believe overfeeding is the cause also. That fish is big enough that once a week would be fine.


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## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

I feel your pain. My big blue diamond got HITH earlier this year from a powerhead that was leaking voltage, and I've had a hell of a time keeping it under control. What I just ended up doing was, I bought a big bottle of Metronidazole on ebay, and I'm doing the bath, and soaking the food at the same time, along with 20% water changes everyday. I'm having excellent results this time too. I've always kept the food and water conditions perfect. I'm just glad I found the source of the problem, and hopefully soon will be done trying to get rid of it.

good luck,
Blue

http://www.bigalsonline.com/edealinv/servlet/ExecMacro?nurl=control/StoreItem.vm&siId=4591756&catParentID=18439&scId=18439&ctl_nbr=3684&utm_source=Shoppingcom&utm_campaign=Shopping+Datafeed&utm_medium=Comparison+Shopping


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

Done with it? Hith will heal up but it will always be there.you can heal your fish you can't cure it. Stray current was another thought that causes it also.


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## D.D.Denham (Aug 13, 2007)

Follow Blue's recommendations...that is the way to go.
Personally, I'm not a big believer in salt (osmotic changes in the fish's natural processes can be harmful if not carried out correctly)...I would question the need for salt.
I was able to control an extreme case of HITH without the use of salt - follow Blue's plan and keep using the VitaChem as well as using the Metro to soak the food. I've found catfish fillets to be the most porous fish flesh to absorb medications/vitamins. I would also recommend you purchase some Seachem Focus to use as a binding agent for the Metro when soaking your food.
Here is some info on Focus...Seachem Focus
As long as your fish is eating it means his system is working, take it a day at a time and don't let the odd behavioural change indicate to you that the "end is near", these are strong, resilient fish that can bounce back from alot - you have to give them time, HITH is long term for recovery and you can expect the fish to retain some scarring of the flesh (depending on the severity of the HITH)...but you can get it under control to prevent further pitting/scarring.


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## flex fish (Aug 20, 2010)

Thanks for all the replys and suport. Bruner247, my tank is a 210 with a 75gallon sump and also a fx5 and I think I might of made a mistake on my waterchange schedual it was at 20 nitrates after feeding three times a week ago and he can consume alot, but usually by Friday the nitrates are only at ten after feeding twice that week I personally don't think that's bad at all( opinons please if I'm wrong) bruner247 are you suggesting that since I only feed twice a week three days in between I should change water after every feeding as a a regular schedual or just till the hith heals, I mean it makes since but alot of times my rhom might not crap till two days later everything he eats gets swallowed so there's never really any mess (opinions please) as for my temp I keep it 80 to 81, as far as if the hith has gotten worse, I think I has alittle because like I said before I look at him everyday I watch his behaviour and I'm starting to see not so much as scars but more lesions and small white spots around his tail and two little white spots on his top fin and also I only replace salt for the water taken out.


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## flex fish (Aug 20, 2010)

So your saying the disease is here to stay, could a uv prevent this

So your saying the disease is here to stay, could a uv prevent this


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

I would definitely clean after feeding, like you said you might have to wait 2days after feeding. I always heard once a fish get hith its there for life of the fish.I may heal fine but its still there lurking. I would keep a close eye on him if something starts to work, I'd run with it. If the fish had it when you bought it, what was the previous keeper doing to keep it at bay? If he found what works for this fish I would definitely keep with that system.


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## flex fish (Aug 20, 2010)

I bought it from Pedro on Aquascape and he was worse off than he is now I cured his fin rot and ammonia burns his hith is what's bad kinda feel like I got screwd on the deal never had a problem with Aquascape before been doing business with them for 5years now never had a problem


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

flex fish said:


> I bought it from Pedro on Aquascape and he was worse off than he is now I cured his fin rot and ammonia burns his hith is what's bad kinda feel like I got screwd on the deal never had a problem with Aquascape before been doing business with them for 5years now never had a problem


 Have you at least contacted aquascape to tell them the problem? I would just keep water changes up and mayby increase them untill you get metro. Like bruner said id do them further apart i nthe week like monday and thursday or something and mayby feed on sunday or wednesday before the waterchange


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## flex fish (Aug 20, 2010)

So if I feed Sunday do a water change Monday or tuesday then feed agin on Wednesday then do another water change Thursday or Friday does this sound pretty good


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

I wouldn't be none to happy if they didn't disclose the Fishs condition before he was delivered. Sounds like bad business to me,definitely not how you should treat a long time customer. Anyhow IMO I would cut him back to one feeding a week, do water change either the day after or two days after n the 2nd change halfway to feeding day. Example feed on monday, waterchange Tue or wed. N again sat or Sunday. I've read that its thought that overfeeding might be the cause also. Actually up until a month or so ago I never even knew piranha could get hith I thought it was a cichlid only disease.guess I've been very lucky over the years. IMO you should research as much as you can, try various "treatments" n if something appears to work I'd stay with what works. As just because a way work for me doesn't mean you'll have the same results. But definitely worth trying them all until you find the winning combo. I feed my breeders twice a week because of aggression but a single 14" rhom I'd definitely cut back to once a week.if it were me anyhow.it would definitely help keep your water as clean as possible.


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## locust (Aug 2, 2005)

Some interesting info from a German site:
*
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*"Hole disease / Spironucleus/ Hexamita / Flagellates / Protoopalina*

Hole disease is caused by flagellates of the Spironucleus or Protoopalina species. Under certain conditions, which have not yet been clearly specified, a massive increase occurs in the number the flagellates which live in the intestines of the fish. They pose serious competition with the fish for minerals, with the result that the fish then suffer from mineral deficiency. As a reaction to the mineral deficiency, the fish breaks down its own skeleton to obtain minerals. Since the largest mass of bone substance is in the region of the head, disintegration is particularly extreme in this area, appearing as holes. At the same time the flagellates move on to the nearest surface of the body. As the holes represent the nearest surface of the body, the flagellates can be found at the bottom of the holes. In the past, only the flagellate was thought to be responsible for this disease. In fact, a combination of mineral deficiency and a massive increase in the numbers of flagellates lead to the formation of holes. 
Holes can also be caused by tapeworms, threadworms and fish tuberculosis, as well as incorrect feeding. 
Remedy: *Increase the mineral content of the water* Hole disease has only been observed in very soft water so far. The flagellates can then be combated by adding JBL Spirohexol."


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## flex fish (Aug 20, 2010)

I wish there was somthin I could do now I'm stuck with this big bastard and hith for the remainder if his life, I don't what's the point in telling Pedro he's not going to refund my money oh well, thanks For all the response and info it really helped


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

I would say something if it was me.honestly I don't see how he couldn't make it right with you. If the fish had it when you received it then he obviously knew about it n didn't say anything.the rhom didn't get it on the way to your house. A 14" rhom isn't cheap,idk know what you paid(if he gave you a discount because of this problem)but if the condition wasn't disclosed beforehand then that's just bad business. Again I don't see how he can afford not to make it right.he does sell piranha to a lot of members here n I'm sure his business will suffer if he doesn't correct it. As a matter of fact he just posted some piranha n honestly I want several BUT now I'm a lil Leary. I'm curious now.did they tell you about it when you purchased the rhom? Because if he told you about it, that's one thing. BUT if he didn't say anything he's already losing business because I won't be ordering the scapularis or hollandi I'm wanting.


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

The pinned thread 14" rhom rehab. Should help looks like it did wonders for his fish.


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## flex fish (Aug 20, 2010)

The fish was originally 850 i got for 650 plus 150 shipping, he never told me about the problem I thought to myself 200 is a lot off it kinda worried me at first but like I said in my last post I have been dealing with fish from Pedro 5years now I second guessed it but I also thought Pedro wouldn't do that to me always deal with there custemer service person Nicole who is so sweet, about two months ago I had just purchased about 400 dollars in redbellys and then a month later I purchased 10 3" redbellys for my brother and then about two and a half weeks ago I purchased 14" rhom so I've been spending some money never got a chance to talk to Pedro when purchasing the rhom getting to talk to Pedro is like tryin to talk to god on the phone, always deal with Nicole because I never have problems, sounded to good to be true but I said what the heck never had problems in 5 years, now I'm just discouraged, never would of paid 650 for a fish with a disease you couldn't cure I feel raped, don't know what I could do at this point


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## BRUNER247 (Jun 2, 2010)

Definitely don't give up on him!you can get him looking good again.it just takes time to heal.if they gave you 200$ they should have told you why there was a discount.I'd adjust your waterchanges a lil n research the hell out of hith n take what everyone did with success n find what works for your rhom. I bet you'll have him looking sweet before you know it.


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## flex fish (Aug 20, 2010)

Thanks for the suport from everybody this site is sweet all good info thanks for your opinions bruner247 I've done alot a research and will continue thanks all


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## Lifer374 (Dec 5, 2003)

I just gotta chime in here.

If Pedro sold you a $650 sick fish without forwarning you in any way what so ever, I highly advise you to try to contact the store by phone and bring this subject to their attention. 
I completely understand how difficult it is to get someone on the phone there sometimes...I literally called more then 2 dozen times and never got an answer, finally taking my buisness elsewhere.

If you are unsuccessful getting this resolved on the phone, this should be brought to light on his forum here. 
I understand that sometimes things happen and bad apples squeak by, it's how he rectifies the situation which will determine the outcome.

If he does nothing, future shoppers should be made aware of this. Pedro has been around here for a long time and I'm confident he will not want the "black eye" by not taking care of you.

Thats a bad deal, trying to bring a fish back from a bad case of HITH is a tremendous amount of work and something that cannont be taken lightly.


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## flex fish (Aug 20, 2010)

I added somthin on his forum but he never responded, I called and talked to somebody they said he'd call me back but he never did and that was a week ago, it's bs and bad for business


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## FEEFA (Nov 19, 2007)

I would never order anything from them again if I were you


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## flex fish (Aug 20, 2010)

I said somthin about it on his Aquascape forum he never responded of course


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## pshopliqstor (May 16, 2010)

There is substantiating research into HITH being caused by flagellates of the Spironucleus or Protoopalina species. The researchers isolated several flagellates from discus/angelfish and they were all identical ( http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/45/d045p197.pdf )

The product, JBL Spirohexol, was used to combat the flagellates after mineral content of the water was raised. I have read testimonies from people who have used it years ago with success in treating HITH. Here is the MSDS on the drug. http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/AM/2-amino-5-nitrothiazole.html I don't know what restrictions are on that chemical as far as obtaining it. There seems to be some overseas sites that sell it online under one of its Synonyms: aminonitrothiazole, aminzol soluble, 5-nitro-2-aminothiazole, 5-nitro-2-thiazolamine, 5-nitro-2-thiazolylamine, enheptin, entramin, nitramin, nitramine. I don't know if you'd run into customs problems getting it here, but for the cheap price it might be worth a shot if you're dealing with HITH.

Also, the original product website of JBL Spriohexol ( http://www.jbl.de/onlinehospitaluk/perpicture/displayanswer.php?AnswerID=017 ) states that HITH is found in soft water. Have you checked your water's hardness? If the holes are in fact a response to mineral deficiencies than this would make sense, as hard water has a higher mineral content. That could be a recommended course of action. Increase the mineral content of the water. Is your source water soft or hard? I would check into these things.

Sorry to hear about your raw deal from AquaScape. I know I won't be giving them any of my business after hearing about this.


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