# Piranha Teeth



## NARKOTIK

hi my us friend ,

Here are pictures of one of my subjects who died was a female of 25 26 cm aged one and a half years.
made in the autopsy what I discovered was full of eggs (orange).
I do not know what she died.
parameters of water was good.
I think it's swim bladder, loss of balance, no reaction, was typing in the windows of the aquarium.



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## bob351

quite a fatty... thoes look like mini teeth









sorry for the loss though impressive size on her


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## Smoke

Quite a belly on her


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## hastatus

Another good example of overfeeding.


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## timmylucas

What type of piranha?


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## CyberGenetics

hastatus said:


> Another good example of overfeeding.


Indeed, and he "dosnt know what it died of"


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## memento

VinceC_69 said:


> Another good example of overfeeding.


Indeed, and he "dosnt know what it died of"








[/quote]

Neither does anyone of you without more information.
I've seen several cases of healthy fish ending up like that, the swelling coming to existance overnight.
Without being overfed.

Could be overfed, but could as well be a bacterial infection or parasite.

What was her diet Narkotik ?


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## NARKOTIK

hello ,

memento my friend ,

is the second specimen died in similar circumstances.
the last summer I had the same problem.
this specimen really eat in France three weeks ago there were degrees 30a35
last week the time c is degraded is a drop, rain, cold wind, temperature shock
a time to fall.
today I find that my behavior is bizard piranhas.
they are dark (can be reproduced)
runs continuously on a spice in the nose to spit sand (nest and ventilation can be)
the issue died with intestinal organs was very swollen and full of eggs

food (frozen fish, mussels, shrimp) in rotation.
feeding every 2 days ..


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## hastatus

memento said:


> Another good example of overfeeding.


Indeed, and he "dosnt know what it died of"








[/quote]

Neither does anyone of you without more information.
I've seen several cases of healthy fish ending up like that, the swelling coming to existance overnight.
Without being overfed.

Could be overfed, but could as well be a bacterial infection or parasite.

What was her diet Narkotik ?
[/quote]
Beg to differ. Overfeeding is a general term for giving all the wrong foods as in too much of.

These fish become grease balls (no pun) as evidenced in cleaning skeletons. As you should know memento. Wild caught do not suffer these problems. Liver or renal damage is common. Unknown causes? Hardly. These fat fish become targets of diseases and parasite. Add the wrong diet ie., live feeders, diet rich in fat (tilapia) processed food (cooked shrimp) for examples and the answer becomes clearer. Also its been my experience most hobbyists won't admit to the real diet for fear of ridicule. And there lies the problem in solving problems.


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## amazonjungle

poor old girl.


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## TRIG

hastatus said:


> Another good example of overfeeding.


Indeed, and he "dosnt know what it died of"








[/quote]

Neither does anyone of you without more information.
I've seen several cases of healthy fish ending up like that, the swelling coming to existance overnight.
Without being overfed.

Could be overfed, but could as well be a bacterial infection or parasite.

What was her diet Narkotik ?
[/quote]
Beg to differ. Overfeeding is a general term for giving all the wrong foods as in too much of.

These fish become grease balls (no pun) as evidenced in cleaning skeletons. As you should know memento. Wild caught do not suffer these problems. Liver or renal damage is common. Unknown causes? Hardly. These fat fish become targets of diseases and parasite. Add the wrong diet ie., live feeders, diet rich in fat (tilapia) processed food (cooked shrimp) for examples and the answer becomes clearer. Also its been my experience most hobbyists won't admit to the real diet for fear of ridicule. And there lies the problem in solving problems.
[/quote]

you would consider tilapia a bad diet? What do you feed you p's Frank?


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## hastatus

TRIG said:


> Another good example of overfeeding.


Indeed, and he "dosnt know what it died of"








[/quote]

Neither does anyone of you without more information.
I've seen several cases of healthy fish ending up like that, the swelling coming to existance overnight.
Without being overfed.

Could be overfed, but could as well be a bacterial infection or parasite.

What was her diet Narkotik ?
[/quote]
Beg to differ. Overfeeding is a general term for giving all the wrong foods as in too much of.

These fish become grease balls (no pun) as evidenced in cleaning skeletons. As you should know memento. Wild caught do not suffer these problems. Liver or renal damage is common. Unknown causes? Hardly. These fat fish become targets of diseases and parasite. Add the wrong diet ie., live feeders, diet rich in fat (tilapia) processed food (cooked shrimp) for examples and the answer becomes clearer. Also its been my experience most hobbyists won't admit to the real diet for fear of ridicule. And there lies the problem in solving problems.
[/quote]

you would consider tilapia a bad diet? What do you feed you p's Frank?
[/quote]
Tilipia in moderation is not bad per se. It is rich in omega 6 a bad fat. Unlike salmon, trout, cod which are rich in omega 3. Less fat. I no longer keep piranha. Never lost any due to "fat" fish. They were fed uncooked shrimp, cod and whitefish. Occasionally cut trout and chunks of salmon. Crayfish tails were fed without shell. Mussel was sparingly given. Not fed was baloney, hot dogs, bacon, chicken, live feeders of any kind.

Also I let the fish fast for a period of one month. This allowed them to use up the dorsum fat storage. Fat dorsum is a good indicator of overfeeding. Just like the above dead fish.


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## hastatus

Best advice I can offer...research foods before feeding. Don't overfeeding. Allow your fish to fast.


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## memento

NARKOTIK said:


> Beg to differ. Overfeeding is a general term for giving all the wrong foods as in too much of.
> 
> These fish become grease balls (no pun) as evidenced in cleaning skeletons. As you should know memento. Wild caught do not suffer these problems. Liver or renal damage is common. Unknown causes? Hardly. These fat fish become targets of diseases and parasite. Add the wrong diet ie., live feeders, diet rich in fat (tilapia) processed food (cooked shrimp) for examples and the answer becomes clearer. Also its been my experience most hobbyists won't admit to the real diet for fear of ridicule. And there lies the problem in solving problems.


I agree with the above, but disagree with your conclusion of it. In the wild they may not suffer these problems, but in the wild is not in a European aquarium. Could still be different reasons besides overfeeding.
Obesity doesn't happen overnight.

The fish below belonged to a Dutch member who fed only once a week, and a varied diet. His fish always had looked very healthy, no signs of obesity at all.
Untill in _one single night_ the fish died, swollen like in the picture. The rest of his crew died a similar death in the months after. It all started after introducing an Erythrinus erythrinus.
Most likely it introduced a parasite into the tank...


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

The fish in that pic doesn't look fat, just a little bloated in the belly, nothing like the fish in the first pics with the huge fat deposits in the dorsal region.


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## memento

A few more pics of that fish.
It looks different from the fish in the original topic, but I'm still pretty sure most would (and did) conclude obesity was cause of death.ted
It wasn't. Not sure what it was though, but it's not an isolated case.
Past few years I've seen five or six topics started with pics like this...


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## hastatus

memento said:


> A few more pics of that fish.
> It looks different from the fish in the original topic, but I'm still pretty sure most would (and did) conclude obesity was cause of death.ted
> It wasn't. Not sure what it was though, but it's not an isolated case.
> Past few years I've seen five or six topics started with pics like this...
> 
> View attachment 204438
> 
> View attachment 204439
> 
> View attachment 204440


You can conclude what you want, but to my eyes that fish is overfed.


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## hastatus

If we go solely by introduction of erythrynus are saying the other mortalities were also by introduction of that species? Lets get down to that species. Its known erythrynus carries camallanus. Its a worm that effects the kidneys and intestine. Could your piranhas got it from dealers tanks? Maybe since fish are moved in and out of stock tanks. Why its striking in your area, I have no idea. But I would certainly start on where the fish were bought. Perhaps its been transported between hobbyists. Who knows.


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## memento

I agree it looks overfed. But I don't believe obesity happens overnight.
I'll look up camallanus, thanks for the tip.

I haven't got a clue either why it only seems to happen in Europe. Could be because there are fewer importers, so CB are more likely to come from same stocks.


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## hastatus

memento said:


> I agree it looks overfed. But I don't believe obesity happens overnight.
> I'll look up camallanus, thanks for the tip.
> 
> I haven't got a clue either why it only seems to happen in Europe. Could be because there are fewer importers, so CB are more likely to come from same stocks.


Of course obesity doesn't happen overnight. Its an ongoing problem that's only noticed when fish is dead. Go on web and look at captive piranhas. You will see the lean vs the overfed.


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## TRIG

hey, what can you tell me about these fat deposits? I always assumed a piranha with a high, thick back was a sign of a healthy muscular fish? Is it the opposite? Please elaborate.


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## hastatus

TRIG said:


> hey, what can you tell me about these fat deposits? I always assumed a piranha with a high, thick back was a sign of a healthy muscular fish? Is it the opposite? Please elaborate.


The dorsum as I said is the fat storage area for piranhas. They use this storage to live on during the dry season when less fish are available. If you look at wildcaught piranhas they look thin at the dorsum area giving it a starved look. That's common before the start of the rainy season.

Since piranhas don't have this period of starvation in the home aquarium then the fat storage builds up with no where to go. Eventually the fish dies from this and other related causes.

I had this discussion years ago with public aquariums and their fat piranhas. They were trying to figure out why the fish were dying after only a few years. It was overfeeding. Once they acknowledged this, they began to vary diet and allowed a period of fasting to force the piranhas to use the fat storage. This helped longevity and piranhas looked and behaved healthier.

Take it for what its worth.


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## TRIG

So is it that area in front of the dorsal fin? Like the thick part of their back? This must be true in many fishes. I remember years ago on another forum, many people were losing different types of shovelnose cats such as tigrinus and juruense. Nobody could figure out what it was until someone suggested it was the fat deposits (dorsum I guess). Do you think adding more current such as powerheads would also help reduce this fatty area? Now I'm worried about my guy, hes kinda got a thicker area going on behind his head.


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## hastatus

TRIG said:


> So is it that area in front of the dorsal fin? Like the thick part of their back? This must be true in many fishes. I remember years ago on another forum, many people were losing different types of shovelnose cats such as tigrinus and juruense. Nobody could figure out what it was until someone suggested it was the fat deposits (dorsum I guess). Do you think adding more current such as powerheads would also help reduce this fatty area? Now I'm worried about my guy, hes kinda got a thicker area going on behind his head.


Yes the area above the eyes behind upper cranium before the dorsal fin. Powerheads would work to exercise the fish.

Cutting back on foods would also help.


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## NARKOTIK

ok my us friends ,

Thank you for your comments and your answers.
I'm going to put more mixing for the sport.
feed them a little less, how many days without eating.
I love my piranhas, there are still 4 that are older that they are not obese they have four years.
about the deceased was not in the same group is a specimen returned.
who have never really been accepted, no attack but he does not tolerate in their groups.
I hope that will not be about me a dirty french, I respect your work and too piranha fury .

yannick


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## NARKOTIK

pygocentrus nattereri (aquarium of lyon ) france (pictures)


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## bob351

hastatus said:


> hey, what can you tell me about these fat deposits? I always assumed a piranha with a high, thick back was a sign of a healthy muscular fish? Is it the opposite? Please elaborate.


The dorsum as I said is the fat storage area for piranhas. They use this storage to live on during the dry season when less fish are available. If you look at wildcaught piranhas they look thin at the dorsum area giving it a starved look. That's common before the start of the rainy season.

Since piranhas don't have this period of starvation in the home aquarium then the fat storage builds up with no where to go. Eventually the fish dies from this and other related causes.

I had this discussion years ago with public aquariums and their fat piranhas. They were trying to figure out why the fish were dying after only a few years. It was overfeeding. Once they acknowledged this, they began to vary diet and allowed a period of fasting to force the piranhas to use the fat storage. This helped longevity and piranhas looked and behaved healthier.

Take it for what its worth.
[/quote]
i try to starve my pygos from june to august and it thins out there fat storages to a point where they look like w/c pygos again... still a little bigger but they look good

i go from every other day to once in 2 weeks or more depending on the aggression levels and damaged fins


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## memento

I fully agree most piranhas in captivity are overfed. But not all of 'm though.
It certainly may make 'm more vulnerable to diseases.
A problem that may increase since most European CB are coming from the same nests, and often traded amongst keepers.

What diseases do they get more vulnarable for Frank, when overfed ?


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## hastatus

memento said:


> I fully agree most piranhas in captivity are overfed. But not all of 'm though.
> It certainly may make 'm more vulnerable to diseases.
> A problem that may increase since most European CB are coming from the same nests, and often traded amongst keepers.
> 
> What diseases do they get more vulnarable for Frank, when overfed ?


Diseases and parasites are an after effect. Overfeeding is controversial if one looks it up on the internet. By itself, its water quality issues. Often overlooked if not tested daily. It takes months even years before you begin to notice something is wrong. Often too late. By then, the wrong diet (to rich in fat) begins by damaging the liver then the kidneys. This then begins the process of diseases from fin rot to dropsy. Or parasites. As a friend of mine told me (Bob Goldstein) just because you don't see parasites doesn't mean they aren't there takes over.
I have no magic list. But like we discussed in private memento, cavity damage occurs from a rupture or egg implosion. This comes across as necropsy producing a stinky mess internally.


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## hastatus

Here is a page I wrote some time ago. 
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/piranha038/para_diseas.html

Found it funny that this information is copy/pasted by another piranha forum without credit to its author.. me!


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## locust

I think this is a good and disturbing example of how public aquaria can over feed and not provide proper conditions:-http://www.youtube.c...E&feature=feedu

Something i notice about the OP `s fish in the pics is the teeth look very small, is this a condition in captive bred that the teeth dont grow as big as wild caught over time? Im comparing with a dried caribe specimen of 6ins.


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## hastatus

locust said:


> I think this is a good and disturbing example of how public aquaria can over feed and not provide proper conditions:-http://www.youtube.c...E&feature=feedu
> 
> Something i notice about the OP `s fish in the pics is the teeth look very small, is this a condition in captive bred that the teeth dont grow as big as wild caught over time? Im comparing with a dried caribe specimen of 6ins.


Doubt it without removing lips. Usually thick lips cover the teeth only showing the points. Barring abnormalities, looks normal to me.


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## locust

hastatus said:


> I think this is a good and disturbing example of how public aquaria can over feed and not provide proper conditions:-http://www.youtube.c...E&feature=feedu
> 
> Something i notice about the OP `s fish in the pics is the teeth look very small, is this a condition in captive bred that the teeth dont grow as big as wild caught over time? Im comparing with a dried caribe specimen of 6ins.


Doubt it without removing lips. Usually thick lips cover the teeth only showing the points. Barring abnormalities, looks normal to me.
[/quote]

The lips ARE removed in the pics..at least the top lip is /or teeth are fully exposed, they look small to me ..unless caribas teeth are bigger?


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## AKSkirmish

Here is a dead 6 inch piraya


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## hastatus

locust said:


> I think this is a good and disturbing example of how public aquaria can over feed and not provide proper conditions:-http://www.youtube.c...E&feature=feedu
> 
> Something i notice about the OP `s fish in the pics is the teeth look very small, is this a condition in captive bred that the teeth dont grow as big as wild caught over time? Im comparing with a dried caribe specimen of 6ins.


Doubt it without removing lips. Usually thick lips cover the teeth only showing the points. Barring abnormalities, looks normal to me.
[/quote]

The lips ARE removed in the pics..at least the top lip is /or teeth are fully exposed, they look small to me ..unless caribas teeth are bigger?
[/quote]
The top teeth are generally smaller than the lower.


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## locust

hastatus said:


> hey, what can you tell me about these fat deposits? I always assumed a piranha with a high, thick back was a sign of a healthy muscular fish? Is it the opposite? Please elaborate.


The dorsum as I said is the fat storage area for piranhas. They use this storage to live on during the dry season when less fish are available. If you look at wildcaught piranhas they look thin at the dorsum area giving it a starved look. That's common before the start of the rainy season.

Since piranhas don't have this period of starvation in the home aquarium then the fat storage builds up with no where to go. Eventually the fish dies from this and other related causes.

I had this discussion years ago with public aquariums and their fat piranhas. They were trying to figure out why the fish were dying after only a few years. It was overfeeding. Once they acknowledged this, they began to vary diet and allowed a period of fasting to force the piranhas to use the fat storage. This helped longevity and piranhas looked and behaved healthier.

Take it for what its worth.
[/quote]

Il provide the examples here:


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## locust

hastatus said:


> I think this is a good and disturbing example of how public aquaria can over feed and not provide proper conditions:-http://www.youtube.c...E&feature=feedu
> 
> Something i notice about the OP `s fish in the pics is the teeth look very small, is this a condition in captive bred that the teeth dont grow as big as wild caught over time? Im comparing with a dried caribe specimen of 6ins.


Doubt it without removing lips. Usually thick lips cover the teeth only showing the points. Barring abnormalities, looks normal to me.
[/quote]

The lips ARE removed in the pics..at least the top lip is /or teeth are fully exposed, they look small to me ..unless caribas teeth are bigger?
[/quote]
The top teeth are generally smaller than the lower.
[/quote]
I know ..i have a set of jaws from a 7ins captive bred red , and the lower teeth look smaller and broader than than the lower teeth of the smaller dried caribe i have which are bigger and more pointed looking


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## hastatus

locust said:


> I think this is a good and disturbing example of how public aquaria can over feed and not provide proper conditions:-http://www.youtube.c...E&feature=feedu
> 
> Something i notice about the OP `s fish in the pics is the teeth look very small, is this a condition in captive bred that the teeth dont grow as big as wild caught over time? Im comparing with a dried caribe specimen of 6ins.


Doubt it without removing lips. Usually thick lips cover the teeth only showing the points. Barring abnormalities, looks normal to me.
[/quote]

The lips ARE removed in the pics..at least the top lip is /or teeth are fully exposed, they look small to me ..unless caribas teeth are bigger?
[/quote]
The top teeth are generally smaller than the lower.
[/quote]
I know ..i have a set of jaws from a 7ins captive bred red , and the lower teeth look smaller and broader than than the lower teeth of the smaller dried caribe i have which are bigger and more pointed looking
[/quote]
Different species. Each different species has specialized teeth.


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## Smoke

So can one expect any negative impacts on growth rate by using a simulated starvation period? The fish experience this in the wild and grow fine, so I expect it should also be fine in the aquarium? Or is this only recommended for fully grown fish... and for Pygos only? Reason I ask is that my Serras won't overeat even if I shoved it down their throats (never tried)... in fact, they will only eat when they choose and only very little at a time. Even if alot of food is provided. I see that my pygos eat more often, so it makes sense to throttle them.


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## hastatus

Smoke said:


> So can one expect any negative impacts on growth rate by using a simulated starvation period? The fish experience this in the wild and grow fine, so I expect it should also be fine in the aquarium? Or is this only recommended for fully grown fish... and for Pygos only? Reason I ask is that my Serras won't overeat even if I shoved it down their throats (never tried)... in fact, they will only eat when they choose and only very little at a time. Even if alot of food is provided. I see that my pygos eat more often, so it makes sense to throttle them.


Serrasalmus needs are different. But in all my years in keeping them, I never kept fat ones. But I have seen plenty of example photos of over indulged Serrasalmus. Even seen comments that praised their "fat" fish. Sad because if they knew what was really happening they might feel differently.

The only drawback in a short starvation period is aggresiveness. Most of it has to do with over conditioned feeding. This would have to be curbed and re-educate the fish.


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## Smoke

Good info, thanks


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## locust

Smoke said:


> So can one expect any negative impacts on growth rate by using a simulated starvation period? The fish experience this in the wild and grow fine, so I expect it should also be fine in the aquarium? Or is this only recommended for fully grown fish... and for Pygos only? Reason I ask is that my Serras won't overeat even if I shoved it down their throats (never tried)... in fact, they will only eat when they choose and only very little at a time. Even if alot of food is provided. I see that my pygos eat more often, so it makes sense to throttle them.


Pygos are more conditioned to feed i think, that is so they can out grow their shoal mates.. to not be the weaker fish. Growth rate shouldnt even be a worry where pygos are concerned ..a well proportioned healthy pygo that has good water movement and lots of water changes is more important: Something like the fish here:

http://www.youtube.c...nel_video_title


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## Smoke

Makes sense. Nice planted setup in that vid.


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## NARKOTIK

thank you for your knowledge and advice


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## locust

Smoke said:


> Makes sense. Nice planted setup in that vid.


Yeah the tank doesnt look huge but the water movement makes up for it
http://www.youtube.c...KNjsSIUbh0&NR=1


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