# Large Rhom Growth in Captivity?



## Yanfloist (Oct 1, 2007)

Just wondering if larger rhoms (12inches and up) will still grow in captivity as they would if they were smaller or would they stop growing??


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

At that size the growth rate is probably so slow you would hardly recognize. its like 1" a year or somethin.


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## J-Lo (Feb 2, 2006)

Yanfloist said:


> Just wondering if larger rhoms (12inches and up) will still grow in captivity as they would if they were smaller or would they stop growing??


Mayber thicker


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## FEEFA (Nov 19, 2007)

I think that if you changed 5gal of water a day about an inch a year


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## chomp chomp (Oct 28, 2003)

my Rhom was 7" when I got him and after about 3 years & 9 months, he is about 10". He has grown more vertically than horizontially and has become quite a bit thicker. I have had him in a 120 gal since I received him.

I would be willing to bet if I upgraded his tank and uped the frequency of water changes, he would grow more quickly. I change 20% of the water every 7-10 days


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## rhomkeeper (Mar 31, 2008)

Yanfloist said:


> Just wondering if larger rhoms (12inches and up) will still grow in captivity as they would if they were smaller or would they stop growing??


technicaly yes, fish never stop growing, but at that size, it will be slow. an inch a year under the best of conditions,but its usualy less.


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## BigBadBlackRhom (Sep 10, 2004)

My rhom grew nearly an inch and a half I would guess in the year ive had her. I have a 125 gal (too small now, will upgrade shortly) with two sumps now. I have it hooked up so the tank recieves 30 new gallons of water a day. I use massive amounts of current. Feed it a huge variety of foods and vitamins. She really grew thick and is out to 16". Had to take her out for tank inspection (thought there was a leak) so had her in a weigh in tub with my fishing bump-board on the bottom and read 16" (give or take an 1/8''). Good water, diet, and little luck, easily an inch a year is possible.


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## Yanfloist (Oct 1, 2007)

this is awesome, keep it coming!!


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

Yanfloist said:


> this is awesome, keep it coming!!


Hey Lee,

This is the most comprehensive study I've seen regarding growth rates in aquariums: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/piranha038/rhombeus.html

Based on what I've read (on that site and others), the rhoms can continue to grow if: 
#1 You have sufficient tank space with plenty of water flow - as they're found in moving rivers and will eat more if they swim more, which is a logical result of energy consumption and demand. More they eat, more they grow.








#2 If you have more than adequate filtration and conduct VERY frequent (every other day) water changes or have a drip system (looking to get one now, but currently doing 25% water change every two days).








#3 If you give it a prime diet and don't skimp on quality protiens.









Additionally, it's been said that many of the anti-parasite treatments help induce growth by eliminating all of the stomach parasites that could slow it's growth by limiting the amount and quality of the vitamins/nutrients the P would normally get in it's diet. It's also said that those parasite treatments contain growth hormones as well. I wouldn't over do this, but it wouldn't hurt to treat the fish every once in a while.

Let's see some pics of your rhom, Lee. How's the hith coming along? Isn't it funny that most of the growth advice is also the same advice to treat the hith?


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## starbury (Jan 30, 2006)

Rough996 said:


> this is awesome, keep it coming!!


Hey Lee,

This is the most comprehensive study I've seen regarding growth rates in aquariums: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/piranha038/rhombeus.html

Based on what I've read (on that site and others), the rhoms can continue to grow if: 
#1 You have sufficient tank space with plenty of water flow - as they're found in moving rivers and will eat more if they swim more, which is a logical result of energy consumption and demand. More they eat, more they grow.








#2 If you have more than adequate filtration and conduct VERY frequent (every other day) water changes or have a drip system (looking to get one now, but currently doing 25% water change every two days).








#3 If you give it a prime diet and don't skimp on quality protiens.









Additionally, it's been said that many of the anti-parasite treatments help induce growth by eliminating all of the stomach parasites that could slow it's growth by limiting the amount and quality of the vitamins/nutrients the P would normally get in it's diet. It's also said that those parasite treatments contain growth hormones as well. I wouldn't over do this, but it wouldn't hurt to treat the fish every once in a while.

Let's see some pics of your rhom, Lee. How's the hith coming along? Isn't it funny that most of the growth advice is also the same advice to treat the hith?
[/quote]

that part is bull they grow to 18 plus inches in the wild and no one gives them przio. i guess you can do it but really it's pointless unless you actually know your rhom has a parasite in him


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## blbig50 (Jan 1, 2009)

Do all of these facts about growth also apply to RB's?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I read a study where the fish actually grew larger and quicker with internal parasites...which would shoot down that theory.

I have yet to see anyone produce proof of growing out a fish. Lot of talk about it...but I have never seen it done. I have had my rhom for something like 5 or 6 years...and I havent noticed any growth on him....and I have an auto water changer on that tank....and a 900 gph powerhead. He is thicker then when I got him..and healthier...but I cant say he is any longer.


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

starbury said:


> that part is bull they grow to 18 plus inches in the wild and no one gives them przio. i guess you can do it but really it's pointless unless you actually know your rhom has a parasite in him


I didn't say those were facts, I was merely forwarding things I've learned/read/seen. If you FULLY read that article I posted, you would've read the experience of a rhom that only grew to 11 inches in captivity - AFTER 20+ years.

Now, if you take the logic that they obviously have great growth in the wild, but not in aquariums, it would be reasonable to say that the closer you can come to duplicating their environment, the better the chances of sustained growth.

Is it true that some parasite medications have growth hormones? SURE. So, if they have growth hormones, why wouldn't that work??? A study that says they grew quicker with or without it has to take into account WHICH parasites contributed to the growth or it's completely pointless to say they're better off with parasites... we DO KNOW that growth hormones work, however.

Look, I started with a 3.5" rhom and grew him to 4" in a short month... after reading all of the skepticism about growing a large one in an aquarium, I quickly upgraded to the 14" that is currently in my tank. Obviously, my goal for him is to see him get as big and wide as possible, so any efforts in that direction can only be doing good for the fish... so, why keep being negative about it?


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

blbig50 said:


> Do all of these facts about growth also apply to RB's?


Generally speaking, the closer you can replicate their wild environment in an aquarium, the more likely they are to thrive (grow). Reds do generally require everything that rhoms do - short of strong current, but they do need current for exercise. Red Bellies are different than rhoms in that they grow relatively faster and then don't get quite as large... they basically "shoot their load" in the first couple of years before their growth slows dramatically.... rhoms grow at a decent pace the first year, but that's to about 4 -5 inches and then it's slow going from there. You can grow a red to 8" in little more than a year. A rhom that size would take several years.


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## Buckman (Jan 10, 2007)

i guess this question is along the same lines. if you have a juvenile manny how large should you expect to grow it in captivity?


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

fett529 said:


> i guess this question is along the same lines. if you have a juvenile manny how large should you expect to grow it in captivity?


I never raised a manny, so never researched it - till now. Apparently, it's similar to the rhom. While Manueli grow up to 20" + in the wild, captive raised reach only 13 - 14"... unless, like a rhom, it was captured at a large size - in which case, it would be costly - due to their relative fraile nature in shipping. I didn't read anything about growth rates, but as with the advice I gave above, the BEST chance you have in growing it out is working hard to replicate their natural habitat. Research does suggest frequent water changes (2-3 times weekly of 15%) If you're like me, based on water change requirements, I'm looking to get a drip/replace system for my tank now.


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## starbury (Jan 30, 2006)

Rough996 said:


> that part is bull they grow to 18 plus inches in the wild and no one gives them przio. i guess you can do it but really it's pointless unless you actually know your rhom has a parasite in him


I didn't say those were facts, I was merely forwarding things I've learned/read/seen. If you FULLY read that article I posted, you would've read the experience of a rhom that only grew to 11 inches in captivity - AFTER 20+ years.

Now, if you take the logic that they obviously have great growth in the wild, but not in aquariums, it would be reasonable to say that the closer you can come to duplicating their environment, the better the chances of sustained growth.

Is it true that some parasite medications have growth hormones? SURE. So, if they have growth hormones, why wouldn't that work??? A study that says they grew quicker with or without it has to take into account WHICH parasites contributed to the growth or it's completely pointless to say they're better off with parasites... we DO KNOW that growth hormones work, however.

Look, I started with a 3.5" rhom and grew him to 4" in a short month... after reading all of the skepticism about growing a large one in an aquarium, I quickly upgraded to the 14" that is currently in my tank. Obviously, my goal for him is to see him get as big and wide as possible, so any efforts in that direction can only be doing good for the fish... so, why keep being negative about it?
[/quote]

ya i know i never said you said they were facts.
all i am saying is people that are just getting into the hobby get the wrong idea that if they med their rhom it will give it a growth spurt. But you can say or think what ever you want cause no one has a proven method to grow out big rhoms in cap. so untill that day comes it's really just a bunch of he said she said,for what they do with there rhoms for good growth.


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

starbury said:


> ya i know i never said you said they were facts.
> all i am saying is people that are just getting into the hobby get the wrong idea that if they med their rhom it will give it a growth spurt. But you can say or think what ever you want cause no one has a proven method to grow out big rhoms in cap. so untill that day comes it's really just a bunch of he said she said,for what they do with there rhoms for good growth.


I hear ya, Starbury. I guess I just have a habit of gathering as much information as possible - to make sound decisions. Therefore, I always lean toward providing as much information as possible to other people - and leave it to them to do with it as they please. I never force an opinion or direction... just share what I know or learned. Hopefully, somebody like you or GG can offer your experiences/knowledge to either counter or support my notions so that the "newbies" can make good decisions as well.

In my mind, the three suggestions I made were legitimate ways to improve the quality of life for their P's (and potentially their ability to grow)... I just happened to throw out the med thing as an "also to consider". I mean, I did defuse it by saying "I wouldn't over do it".


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## starbury (Jan 30, 2006)

Rough996 said:


> ya i know i never said you said they were facts.
> all i am saying is people that are just getting into the hobby get the wrong idea that if they med their rhom it will give it a growth spurt. But you can say or think what ever you want cause no one has a proven method to grow out big rhoms in cap. so untill that day comes it's really just a bunch of he said she said,for what they do with there rhoms for good growth.


I hear ya, Starbury. I guess I just have a habit of gathering as much information as possible - to make sound decisions. Therefore, I always lean toward providing as much information as possible to other people - and leave it to them to do with it as they please. I never force an opinion or direction... just share what I know or learned. Hopefully, somebody like you or GG can offer your experiences/knowledge to either counter or support my notions so that the "newbies" can make good decisions as well.

In my mind, the three suggestions I made were legitimate ways to improve the quality of life for their P's (and potentially their ability to grow)... I just happened to throw out the med thing as an "also to consider". I mean, I did defuse it by saying "I wouldn't over do it".








[/quote]

by all means keep doing what your doing your rhom is lucky your that dedicated. it's just that some people think meds is the end all be all for getting big rhoms. and GG is probably the one you want to ask or Pat if he is still around they have done and try pretty much everything to try and grow out thier rhoms.


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## Yanfloist (Oct 1, 2007)

Rough996 said:


> this is awesome, keep it coming!!


Hey Lee,

This is the most comprehensive study I've seen regarding growth rates in aquariums: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/piranha038/rhombeus.html

Based on what I've read (on that site and others), the rhoms can continue to grow if: 
#1 You have sufficient tank space with plenty of water flow - as they're found in moving rivers and will eat more if they swim more, which is a logical result of energy consumption and demand. More they eat, more they grow.








#2 If you have more than adequate filtration and conduct VERY frequent (every other day) water changes or have a drip system (looking to get one now, but currently doing 25% water change every two days).








#3 If you give it a prime diet and don't skimp on quality protiens.









Additionally, it's been said that many of the anti-parasite treatments help induce growth by eliminating all of the stomach parasites that could slow it's growth by limiting the amount and quality of the vitamins/nutrients the P would normally get in it's diet. It's also said that those parasite treatments contain growth hormones as well. I wouldn't over do this, but it wouldn't hurt to treat the fish every once in a while.

Let's see some pics of your rhom, Lee. How's the hith coming along? Isn't it funny that most of the growth advice is also the same advice to treat the hith?
[/quote]

That's great info. Thankds a lot. Well, I've also been changing my water every other day and as far as I can tell, one of the holes on my rhom's head is starting to close up. I guess that is a good sign. I feed it every other day at night then do water changes in the morning. I did not use fish zole yet. I'll just continue with the water change for now. Yeah, I can post some pictures up.


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## starbury (Jan 30, 2006)

hey rough if you want a good example of some one growing out a rhom look up redrum781. he got his rhom from 2 inches to 9.5 10 inches in under 2.5 years. Thats the best results i have ever seen.


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

starbury said:


> hey rough if you want a good example of some one growing out a rhom look up redrum781. he got his rhom from 2 inches to 9.5 10 inches in under 2.5 years. Thats the best results i have ever seen.


That is the fastest growth I've heard of. Do you know what he did/didn't do to get the rhom to grow at that rate?


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## bigshawn (Dec 29, 2005)

Rough996 said:


> hey rough if you want a good example of some one growing out a rhom look up redrum781. he got his rhom from 2 inches to 9.5 10 inches in under 2.5 years. Thats the best results i have ever seen.


That is the fastest growth I've heard of. Do you know what he did/didn't do to get the rhom to grow at that rate?
[/quote]
I'd love to know that as well?


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

starbury said:


> hey rough if you want a good example of some one growing out a rhom look up redrum781. he got his rhom from 2 inches to 9.5 10 inches in under 2.5 years. Thats the best results i have ever seen.


I found this forum, where redrum781 talks about the fish's diet and water conditions. I was surprised to hear that he grew him out in a smaller tank... he cited the fact that the rhom was able to reach and eat all of the food as a contributing factor. He also did massive water changes - frequently.

Anywho... here's the forum: P-Fury topic started by redrum781 regarding his rhom's growth rate


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

Oh, thanks again, Starbury for the info.

I forgot to mention that he had low PH. I believe he mentioned it being 5.8 or something like that, which makes sense. Going back to my theory of duplicating the natural environment, they do live in very low PH/acidic waters. I have a full house water softener, which puts my PH out of the tap at 6.2-6.4 range. Maybe in addition to the other three points I made, keeping them in low PH might serve growth rates just as well. Just a thought.


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## starbury (Jan 30, 2006)

Rough996 said:


> Oh, thanks again, Starbury for the info.
> 
> I forgot to mention that he had low PH. I believe he mentioned it being 5.8 or something like that, which makes sense. Going back to my theory of duplicating the natural environment, they do live in very low PH/acidic waters. I have a full house water softener, which puts my PH out of the tap at 6.2-6.4 range. Maybe in addition to the other three points I made, keeping them in low PH might serve growth rates just as well. Just a thought.


no problem man anything to help


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## Buckman (Jan 10, 2007)

fett529 said:


> i guess this question is along the same lines. if you have a juvenile manny how large should you expect to grow it in captivity?


thanks for the good info rough. you sir, are the man.


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## chomp chomp (Oct 28, 2003)

Grosse Gurke said:


> I read a study where the fish actually grew larger and quicker with internal parasites...which would shoot down that theory.
> 
> I have yet to see anyone produce proof of growing out a fish. Lot of talk about it...but I have never seen it done. I have had my rhom for something like 5 or 6 years...and I havent noticed any growth on him....and I have an auto water changer on that tank....and a 900 gph powerhead. He is thicker then when I got him..and healthier...but I cant say he is any longer.


Interesting GG-

It may be just a coincidence but I treated all of my wild caught P's with Parazipro, over 1 year ago and it seems all of their growth has slowed substantially. I have not changed any other pramaters with my aquariums. I think I will have to read more into this. By chance, do you have a link so I could look further into it.

Thanks
-Matt


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

It was a paper sent to me by an old school member and it is (I believe) unpublished so I cant share it. I dont think there is anything wrong with treating fish...just wanted to share that it might not have as much to do with getting growth as people say.


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## primetime3wise (Sep 28, 2003)

i'm skeptical about the possibility, just because in the 6 years i have been here, i have yet to see someone grow one out to a huge size, 12"+. i can say the same about mannys. i think i have only seen one over 10"+, the one that was imported and now being sold in the classifieds.

i think the best choice for a grow out species, would be piraya. i'm not saying it can't be done w/ s. manuelli, but i think there would be a bunch of large ones, if indeed, it was possible. at the same time, w/ mannys, i don't know that many people are going to keep a fish that grows so slowly, while at the same time having the POTENTIAL to grow very large. makes me think most people must dispose of them when they grow tired and/or lose patience.


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## Buckman (Jan 10, 2007)

primetime3wise said:


> i'm skeptical about the possibility, just because in the 6 years i have been here, i have yet to see someone grow one out to a huge size, 12"+. i can say the same about mannys. i think i have only seen one over 10"+, the one that was imported and now being sold in the classifieds.
> 
> i think the best choice for a grow out species, would be piraya. i'm not saying it can't be done w/ s. manuelli, but i think there would be a bunch of large ones, if indeed, it was possible. at the same time, w/ mannys, i don't know that many people are going to keep a fish that grows so slowly, while at the same time having the POTENTIAL to grow very large. makes me think most people must dispose of them when they grow tired and/or lose patience.


i think i'm in for the long haul on this one because i refuse to pay hundreds of dollars on a student budget haha i got my manny for $50. and the fact that not many people have done it mkes it exciting. how would you go about setting up an auto water chnger?


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## primetime3wise (Sep 28, 2003)

fett529 said:


> i'm skeptical about the possibility, just because in the 6 years i have been here, i have yet to see someone grow one out to a huge size, 12"+. i can say the same about mannys. i think i have only seen one over 10"+, the one that was imported and now being sold in the classifieds.
> 
> i think the best choice for a grow out species, would be piraya. i'm not saying it can't be done w/ s. manuelli, but i think there would be a bunch of large ones, if indeed, it was possible. at the same time, w/ mannys, i don't know that many people are going to keep a fish that grows so slowly, while at the same time having the POTENTIAL to grow very large. makes me think most people must dispose of them when they grow tired and/or lose patience.


i think i'm in for the long haul on this one because i refuse to pay hundreds of dollars on a student budget haha i got my manny for $50. and the fact that not many people have done it mkes it exciting. how would you go about setting up an auto water chnger?
[/quote]

now that i have a monster rhom, i think my next pickups are gonna be a small manny and some piraya, maybe a mixed pygo tank...mostly because of the potential for enormous size.

that 14" manny in the classifieds in enticing, but i can't see putting out that much $$$ on another monster fish, esp. when i wanna get a dog.

as far as setting up an auto water changer...i dunno, but if you find a nice setup for that, let me know


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## Buckman (Jan 10, 2007)

ok, i'll do some research on that.


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## locust (Aug 2, 2005)

Ive got 1 rhom thats taken 3.5 years to get to 13.5ins from 10.5ins. Hes in 50 UK gal , 25% wc per week , nitrate is close to zero ,ph 7, that growth is to be expected i suppose

at 10.5ins
View attachment 177334


at 13.5ins
View attachment 177335


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## superbee (Sep 15, 2008)

locust said:


> Ive got 1 rhom thats taken 3.5 years to get to 13.5ins from 10.5ins. Hes in 50 UK gal , 25% wc per week , nitrate is close to zero ,ph 7, that growth is to be expected i suppose
> 
> at 10.5ins
> View attachment 177334
> ...


Nice fish!!!

Hopin to get my Blue diamond that big!!


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## lo4life (Aug 12, 2008)

you need to get some pics up of the blue superbee


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## blbig50 (Jan 1, 2009)

Rough996 said:


> Do all of these facts about growth also apply to RB's?


Generally speaking, the closer you can replicate their wild environment in an aquarium, the more likely they are to thrive (grow). Reds do generally require everything that rhoms do - short of strong current, but they do need current for exercise. Red Bellies are different than rhoms in that they grow relatively faster and then don't get quite as large... they basically "shoot their load" in the first couple of years before their growth slows dramatically.... rhoms grow at a decent pace the first year, but that's to about 4 -5 inches and then it's slow going from there. You can grow a red to 8" in little more than a year. A rhom that size would take several years.
[/quote]

Thanks for the reply. How long is their general life span?


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## BigBadBlackRhom (Sep 10, 2004)

I'll elaborate my post since I replied quickly the last time. When I said "an inch a year is definitely possible" I was speaking generally as if you were growing it out from a juvi size. Even at large sizes (I got my rhom large around 14.5") I have experienced a first year growth of nearly 1.5" in length and alot of growth width wise. If you search the pictures, somewhere in march i posted pictures of my fish only a week in my tank. I compared it with other members here with large rhoms and didn't quite see the mass or "age" in my fish. Looked a bit lean, long.. well, much like a adolescent fish. Possibly why it actually grew as much length as it did? Maybe. But i would not expect an inch a year for every rhom. I think it has alot to do with the fish's demeanor , some luck on your side and growing conditions. Kindof like when I was talking to a friend who studies bass for the DNR- you can have two bass of the same age in the same lake. But one might be a 5lber and the other inches shorter , scrawnier and only weighs 3lbs. It happens alot in nature. something to think about before you start beating yourself because you think you can't "grow a rhom bigger"
At large sizes, the fish is growing slowly lengthwise, but its also gaining alot of mass. Its hard for rhom owners to notice growth unless you really pay attention and keep taking pictures and or measure it. Fortunately I did both. I was a bit amazed with the length. The mass was another pleasant surprise because i have seen the fish like hours each day every day. Only for two weeks when on vacation i didnt see the fish. So I guess its like seeing a friend get fat. Really dont realize how heavy they get if you hang out all the time. Well, it wasnt til i took some pictures over the holidays (last time i took pictures was in march) did i realize, "hey, this rhom looks like a big rhom!" My fish is now much taller, thicker and well looks more like a big rhom







. I hope for rapid growth in length, for im doing all i can possibly do at the moment (short of buying it a 1000 gallon tank and a personal therapist). Ive added a second sump this weekend so ive got an extra 70 gallons in my system making my system around 190-195 gals. Diet has included whole fish, whole fish stuffed with pellets, filets, filets injected with infant vitamins.
There is a flip side to this. Minor but should be avoided. Its tempting to feed the fish alot and often. But I ran into a little issue a while back and my fish got a touch of HITH which is now almost healed. Fish eats alot. Fish poops alot. Even with the massive auto water changer (some of you guys are thinking of going this route) , you have to scoop the poop almost daily. I got a little side tracked for about a month or two-- felt my auto water changes was good enough and only siphoned the tank once a week even though the heavy feeding continued. Well, fish got HITH on its nose and now ive been scooping poop/ bigger water changes DAILY and its working. If you are thinking of heavy feedings, auto water changes for a big rhom...what I would do had I gone back in time was to leave the tank bottom bare. Its SOO much easier to spot fish poop and you dont have to deal with sandscapes and sandstorms if by chance your huge powerhead gets knocked in the wrong direction.
Sorry for the long post- but im super interested and excited for you guys just getting your big rhom and trying to grow it even bigger! Ive kept a daily journal (some weeks I just summarized the week but was very specific ) about feeding, feeding amounts, any changes in the tank, etc. So if there's specifics like diet experiments, etc let me know.
Also, before i ventured into the realm of having a big rhom, I contacted many of the friendly people here and still do to this day-- GG, Titan, Alex (Als) , Wayne Mah, some more-- and came up with the way i care for the fish based mainly on their advice. So to you guys who gave me advice along the way-Thanks!







Hopefully I can pass along your ideas as well as mine to the upcoming hobbyists-
Al
btw, pictures of the rhom will be posted this weekend when i get time to sort through the many pics-


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

^^^ That's definitely elaborating, BBBRhom.







Good stuff!!!


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## superbee (Sep 15, 2008)

Rough996 said:


> ^^^ That's definitely elaborating, BBBRhom.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea but a ton of great info...Always a down side i guess!!!


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## Yanfloist (Oct 1, 2007)

Hey thanks a lot BBBRhom!! I will take more pictures too!


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## Knifeman (Feb 3, 2003)

I have not read this entire thread, so some or all of what I write may be redundant. Some of you that have been on here a while know that I have had some very large piranha in the past, and many of those I grew myself. I have achieved very fast and impressive growth by utilizing a drip system in some of my tanks, which automatically changes a preset amount of water in my tanks continually. I also combine this method of maintaining pristine water with a wide variation of high quality foods, because diet is the other half of the growth equation. I have taken a shoal of caribe and raised them from quarter sized to 9" - 13" long in less than two years. I have also had success in growing very small piraya at roughly the same rate, but unfortunately was forced to abandon that particular project due to cannibalization wiping out over half of my shoal when they reached about 8" - 11" in size. I currently have a rhom that I am guessing measures around 17", and is easily thicker, longer, and higher backed than any rhom I have ever seen. After having him for a year in a tank that I did manual water changes on, I decided to move him to a tank with the drip system so that I could find out if I could achieve similar growth results.

So far, the rhom has been in the new tank for a year, but I cannot say that I can see any noticeable growth. Perhaps he has grown a bit, but I doubt it and I think I know why. This particular fish is active, so I know he is burning calories most of the time. However, he has never been a voracious eater, and does not allow me to vary his diet to anything other than catfish flesh or occasionally a live fish. He refuses night crawlers, shrimp, and beef heart. I have fasted him for two and even three weeks straight, but still he will not give in and eat the new foods. And although he readily attacks his catfish again after such a fast, he quickly goes back to his old ways of rationing his food intake which is normally eating one (or two on a rare day) 3" strip of catfish flesh about every third or fourth day. In short, I believe that I will not be able to get him to grow, unless I decide to risk training him to eat a varied diet. What this would entail is me fasting for longer than I have been willing to do before, until I break him and he begins to view eating as an opportunity that he never wants to miss. I would then keep him on the new food for several weeks, and then switch him to another new food. Of course I anticipate that he will again refuse the new food for a period of time, and I will need to wait him out once again.

If I am successful at this experiment of mine, the end result could be a fish that soon increases in growth, due to his body responding to the new and richer diet than what he has become accustomed to. He also should eat much more aggressively, because he will learn that if he doesn't it may be a long time before he is offered food again. Of course, there is much risk in an experiment like this with such a rare and expensive fish. Fish that are deprived of food for too long can have their immunity systems weakened beyond repair, and it is possible that the fish can die as a result. Although starvation would probably not be the cause (as I think that most fish that are healthy to begin with will almost always eat what is available to them when the only other option is starving), it could be that their weaker and more frail body could cause them to contract a fatal disease. For this reason, I am not 100% sure at this point if I am completely ready to try this extreme, but will let you know if I do.


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

Knifeman said:


> I have not read this entire thread, so some or all of what I write may be redundant. Some of you that have been on here a while know that I have had some very large piranha in the past, and many of those I grew myself. I have achieved very fast and impressive growth by utilizing a drip system in some of my tanks, which automatically changes a preset amount of water in my tanks continually. I also combine this method of maintaining pristine water with a wide variation of high quality foods, because diet is the other half of the growth equation. I have taken a shoal of caribe and raised them from quarter sized to 9" - 13" long in less than two years. I have also had success in growing very small piraya at roughly the same rate, but unfortunately was forced to abandon that particular project due to cannibalization wiping out over half of my shoal when they reached about 8" - 11" in size. I currently have a rhom that I am guessing measures around 17", and is easily thicker, longer, and higher backed than any rhom I have ever seen. After having him for a year in a tank that I did manual water changes on, I decided to move him to a tank with the drip system so that I could find out if I could achieve similar growth results.
> 
> So far, the rhom has been in the new tank for a year, but I cannot say that I can see any noticeable growth. Perhaps he has grown a bit, but I doubt it and I think I know why. This particular fish is active, so I know he is burning calories most of the time. However, he has never been a voracious eater, and does not allow me to vary his diet to anything other than catfish flesh or occasionally a live fish. He refuses night crawlers, shrimp, and beef heart. I have fasted him for two and even three weeks straight, but still he will not give in and eat the new foods. And although he readily attacks his catfish again after such a fast, he quickly goes back to his old ways of rationing his food intake which is normally eating one (or two on a rare day) 3" strip of catfish flesh about every third or fourth day. In short, I believe that I will not be able to get him to grow, unless I decide to risk training him to eat a varied diet. What this would entail is me fasting for longer than I have been willing to do before, until I break him and he begins to view eating as an opportunity that he never wants to miss. I would then keep him on the new food for several weeks, and then switch him to another new food. Of course I anticipate that he will again refuse the new food for a period of time, and I will need to wait him out once again.
> 
> If I am successful at this experiment of mine, the end result could be a fish that soon increases in growth, due to his body responding to the new and richer diet than what he has become accustomed to. He also should eat much more aggressively, because he will learn that if he doesn't it may be a long time before he is offered food again. Of course, there is much risk in an experiment like this with such a rare and expensive fish. Fish that are deprived of food for too long can have their immunity systems weakened beyond repair, and it is possible that the fish can die as a result. Although starvation would probably not be the cause (as I think that most fish that are healthy to begin with will almost always eat what is available to them when the only other option is starving), it could be that their weaker and more frail body could cause them to contract a fatal disease. For this reason, I am not 100% sure at this point if I am completely ready to try this extreme, but will let you know if I do.


Hey knifeman, that is good info, but you were right... it was relatively redundant.







Anyway, thanks for sharing those experiences. I'm looking to change to a drip system myself, for my 14" rhom. I do have a question for you though: If your rhom doesn't have much of an appetite, are you sure he isn't dealing with a case of heximita (sp) enduced HITH? Does he have any "sores" or holes on his head? That could be the cause of his lack of appetite. Also, what do you keep your temps at?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Rough996 said:


> Hey knifeman, that is good info, but you were right... it was relatively redundant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My guess is that John would know if his fish had HITH...hes been at this game a long time.


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## assclown (Dec 12, 2005)

personaly......i dont care how big mine get...i just love my fish


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

assclown said:


> personaly......i dont care how big mine get...i just love my fish


Hey dude... how ya been? Haven't seen you around in awhile.

By the way... it's easy to say "I don't care how big mine get" when you have an 18" rhom!
That's like a billionaire saying "_I don't care how much money I make_."


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## Gigante Pirana (Apr 23, 2004)

Knifeman said:


> I have not read this entire thread, so some or all of what I write may be redundant. Some of you that have been on here a while know that I have had some very large piranha in the past, and many of those I grew myself. I have achieved very fast and impressive growth by utilizing a drip system in some of my tanks, which automatically changes a preset amount of water in my tanks continually. I also combine this method of maintaining pristine water with a wide variation of high quality foods, because diet is the other half of the growth equation. I have taken a shoal of caribe and raised them from quarter sized to 9" - 13" long in less than two years. I have also had success in growing very small piraya at roughly the same rate, but unfortunately was forced to abandon that particular project due to cannibalization wiping out over half of my shoal when they reached about 8" - 11" in size. I currently have a rhom that I am guessing measures around 17", and is easily thicker, longer, and higher backed than any rhom I have ever seen. After having him for a year in a tank that I did manual water changes on, I decided to move him to a tank with the drip system so that I could find out if I could achieve similar growth results.
> 
> So far, the rhom has been in the new tank for a year, but I cannot say that I can see any noticeable growth. Perhaps he has grown a bit, but I doubt it and I think I know why. This particular fish is active, so I know he is burning calories most of the time. However, he has never been a voracious eater, and does not allow me to vary his diet to anything other than catfish flesh or occasionally a live fish. He refuses night crawlers, shrimp, and beef heart. I have fasted him for two and even three weeks straight, but still he will not give in and eat the new foods. And although he readily attacks his catfish again after such a fast, he quickly goes back to his old ways of rationing his food intake which is normally eating one (or two on a rare day) 3" strip of catfish flesh about every third or fourth day. In short, I believe that I will not be able to get him to grow, unless I decide to risk training him to eat a varied diet. What this would entail is me fasting for longer than I have been willing to do before, until I break him and he begins to view eating as an opportunity that he never wants to miss. I would then keep him on the new food for several weeks, and then switch him to another new food. Of course I anticipate that he will again refuse the new food for a period of time, and I will need to wait him out once again.
> 
> If I am successful at this experiment of mine, the end result could be a fish that soon increases in growth, due to his body responding to the new and richer diet than what he has become accustomed to. He also should eat much more aggressively, because he will learn that if he doesn't it may be a long time before he is offered food again. Of course, there is much risk in an experiment like this with such a rare and expensive fish. Fish that are deprived of food for too long can have their immunity systems weakened beyond repair, and it is possible that the fish can die as a result. Although starvation would probably not be the cause (as I think that most fish that are healthy to begin with will almost always eat what is available to them when the only other option is starving), it could be that their weaker and more frail body could cause them to contract a fatal disease. For this reason, I am not 100% sure at this point if I am completely ready to try this extreme, but will let you know if I do.


Great read John!
These feeding issues mirror exactly with what has been happening with my large rhom for the past 3 and half years!


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## Knifeman (Feb 3, 2003)

Gigante Pirana said:


> Great read John!
> These feeding issues mirror exactly with what has been happening with my large rhom for the past 3 and half years!


Hey, great to see that you're still around Wayne! I really think it's the lack of competition that makes them so difficult to grow in captivity. That is, if you maintain great water quality and can manage to get them to eat decent amounts of a nutritious diet. I'm really close to trying this, but who wants to risk the health and possibly the life of such a rare and valuable fish?

I'd like to phone you if you're still at the same place. I'd also like to talk with Alex, since he has had such great success in getting his fish to grow even without the drip system. One of my tanks that I'm planning on stocking soon does not have the drip system, so I'd be curious to hear what his water change schedule is like. I think I have the feeding and water quality thing down in my drip tank, but have never had quite as much success in growing fish fast in my non-drip tanks.

I've also thought about getting an 8' tank, splitting it down the middle with a clear divider, and seeing if I can create some competition between two grown rhoms that way. Filtration would be a little trickier with my drip system though, and I am sure that a set up like that would make my now flawless rhom grow a chimple really, really quick. I'm sure he'd get ticked about the new intruder, because he even attacks the glass when my 130 lb. rottweiler walks by!


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

all around great info


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## locust (Aug 2, 2005)

Knifeman said:


> Great read John!
> These feeding issues mirror exactly with what has been happening with my large rhom for the past 3 and half years!


Hey, great to see that you're still around Wayne! I really think it's the lack of competition that makes them so difficult to grow in captivity. That is, if you maintain great water quality and can manage to get them to eat decent amounts of a nutritious diet. I'm really close to trying this, but who wants to risk the health and possibly the life of such a rare and valuable fish?

I'd like to phone you if you're still at the same place. I'd also like to talk with Alex, since he has had such great success in getting his fish to grow even without the drip system. One of my tanks that I'm planning on stocking soon does not have the drip system, so I'd be curious to hear what his water change schedule is like. I think I have the feeding and water quality thing down in my drip tank, but have never had quite as much success in growing fish fast in my non-drip tanks.

I've also thought about getting an 8' tank, splitting it down the middle with a clear divider, and seeing if I can create some competition between two grown rhoms that way. Filtration would be a little trickier with my drip system though, and I am sure that a set up like that would make my now flawless rhom grow a chimple really, really quick. I'm sure he'd get ticked about the new intruder, because he even attacks the glass when my 130 lb. rottweiler walks by!
[/quote]

Maybe a fish of that size just doesnt need to feed heavily,being very mature, i have a 14ins fish that would feed like theres no tomorrow if given the chance, i would rather ration food so as to not to make him too round. Would you say that lack of competition holds a solo kept pygo back from from feeding?
What are the reasons of water changes other than to keep nitrate near to zero?


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## Lifer374 (Dec 5, 2003)

Knifeman said:


> I've also thought about getting an 8' tank, splitting it down the middle with a clear divider, and seeing if I can create some competition between two grown rhoms that way.


I've always had a feeling that this could be an experiment definately worth trying with rhombeus'.

Good to see your around again Knifeman.


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## Knifeman (Feb 3, 2003)

locust said:


> Maybe a fish of that size just doesnt need to feed heavily,being very mature, i have a 14ins fish that would feed like theres no tomorrow if given the chance, i would rather ration food so as to not to make him too round. Would you say that lack of competition holds a solo kept pygo back from from feeding?
> What are the reasons of water changes other than to keep nitrate near to zero?


Correct, a fish that size doesn't necessarily "need" to feed often to "survive"... but the thread is about getting information to help them grow. And more than likely a heavily fed fish could get "rounder" as well as longer, but the physical conditioning can be helped by setting up the tank properly with sufficient current. In my tanks, I use a wet/dry system with heavy current on one side of the tank flowing naturally to the opposite side. This gives the same effect as river current, and most piranha I have kept definitely utilize the current and seem to enjoy placing themselves facing directly into it. Therefore, although many of the fish that I have raised have been called "thick", in my opinion they are fairly fit and healthy.

There is evidence that suggests that fish in captivity release growth inhibiting hormones that tends to hamper their natural tendency to continue to grow until death. I think I recall Frank and I discussing this topic years ago, and he can probably point us to the information somewhere. The frequent water changes can keep these hormones to a minimum, theoretically allowing the fish to resume the growth rate that nature would have allowed for in the wild. However, a fish also needs sufficient quality nutrition to induce the kind of growth that we are discussing here, which is what this thread is all about.

And yes, many solitary kept pygos have the same tendency to get picky when kept alone.

Gurke and Tango, good to see you guys are still around too!


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## locust (Aug 2, 2005)

^ Yeah i breed crickets and the pheromone they release inhibits growth - a singly kept cricket will grow to its full potential , over crowd them and they dont, ( maybe somewhat similar to fish) . Its easy to see growth differences in their 4 week life cycle.
A friend grew a 14ins rhom to 16ins in 1.5 years in a 4ft deep tank , i spoke with Frank about this and he agreed that higher than average tank depth ( 24ins say) water pressure is likely to promote good growth also , the fish has been moved to a 24ins high for the last year now and growth isnt noticeable since . He also has a 12ins fish in a small tank that has been that size for 10 years now. Would you say vitamin suppliment is essential ? As i dont imagine they can get much vit C for example being fed a sea fish based diet


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## Knifeman (Feb 3, 2003)

Vitamin supplementation could be helpful, but I think if you can get the fish to eat enough of a varied diet that is nutrient rich than it shouldn't necessarily be essential for growth in captivity. I'm a big believer that the best vitamins and minerals come from foods in their natural and raw state, and synthetic supplementation doesn't really fit into that line of thinking. Still it might help, but if I were going to try that I would spend the extra money to get supplements from raw food sources. I personally take a lot of products from a company called "Standard Process", which specializes in this extreme way of manufacturing their supplements.


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## locust (Aug 2, 2005)

Cheers Knifeman, would you have any recent pics of your rhom you could post?


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## elongatus (Feb 6, 2003)

I can attest to the very nice Rhom. John has had for some years now. In fact, I helped him move him downstairs to his tank with the drip system. It was a big boy to move. I never thought to ask him when we talked if it has grown any over the past year, but after reading this post I guess my question was answered, but as in my case it seems like when you see your fish everyday you don't notice the gradual change over time. Then a friend will stop by and be suprised on how big a fish has gotten since the last time he or she has seen it. I'm glad to see some of the old guys are still around, I check from time to time but don't post very often.

Matt


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## Yanfloist (Oct 1, 2007)

this thread is awesome!!


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Wow.....John...then Wayne...then Matt....

Unfortunately most on this forum wont know the contributions you three have made in this hobby...but there are still a few of us that remember the masters.

Hopefully one of these days I can convince some of you to help mentor these youngsters.......a little direction goes a long way in this hobby


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## Gigante Pirana (Apr 23, 2004)

Grosse Gurke said:


> Wow.....John...then Wayne...then Matt....
> 
> Unfortunately most on this forum wont know the contributions you three have made in this hobby...but there are still a few of us that remember the masters.
> 
> Hopefully one of these days I can convince some of you to help mentor these youngsters.......a little direction goes a long way in this hobby


Nice to see these guys are alive and well! I even spotted another oldie: Derek Blackman on this board just recently!!!!


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## elongatus (Feb 6, 2003)

Thanks G.G. for your kind words, but don't forget to include yourself in the group of old schoolers. Hi Wayne, glad to see you're still checking in on the board.

Matt


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## assclown (Dec 12, 2005)

Piranha_man said:


> personaly......i dont care how big mine get...i just love my fish


Hey dude... how ya been? Haven't seen you around in awhile.

By the way... it's easy to say "I don't care how big mine get" when you have an 18" rhom!
That's like a billionaire saying "_I don't care how much money I make_."
[/quote]
ive been doing good my man.....how about you? you need to look me up when you get into my neck of
the woods....and yeah that came out kinda snobish i guess, sorry about the comment...


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## blbig50 (Jan 1, 2009)

assclown said:


> personaly......i dont care how big mine get...i just love my fish


Hey dude... how ya been? Haven't seen you around in awhile.

By the way... it's easy to say "I don't care how big mine get" when you have an 18" rhom!
That's like a billionaire saying "_I don't care how much money I make_."
[/quote]
ive been doing good my man.....how about you? you need to look me up when you get into my neck of
the woods....and yeah that came out kinda snobish i guess, sorry about the comment...:laugh:
[/quote]

Let's see a pic of that Rhom!!!


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## Knifeman (Feb 3, 2003)

locust said:


> Cheers Knifeman, would you have any recent pics of your rhom you could post?


I'll try to take a pic in the days/weeks ahead. Jeff and some of the other "old heads" on here can tell you that it always took a lot of arm twisting to get me to take fish pictures often.

Btw, I love the attitude of that rhom in your video. Your fish? He reminds me of an elongatus that I used to have.


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## locust (Aug 2, 2005)

Yes mate hes been with me a few years and well settled, i think i made a mistake giving him salmon and trout early on, coz his body is more developed than his head if you get me, i prefer the shape on another fish i have, the jaw is big and square looking in comparison -, 
hes building up hes attitude


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

That's a pretty rhom... I don't see where you're talking about his body outgrowing his head. The bottom picture looks like a perfect rhom to me.

That vid in your signature, or whatever, is cool. My 14" rhom is the same way with my magnetic glass cleaner. I had to stop doing it in front of him because his aggression toward it was THROUGH THE ROOF. He was biting it with such ferocity that he was destroying the plastic cover - gashed it good a few times... and he once knocked out a tooth.


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## locust (Aug 2, 2005)

I was talking about the one in the vid being overweight. Yeah i think they need some interaction, they watch everything going on outside the tank


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Knifeman said:


> I'll try to take a pic in the days/weeks ahead. Jeff and some of the other "old heads" on here can tell you that it always took a lot of arm twisting to get me to take fish pictures often.


Unfortunately this is so true.....always leaving us waiting...and waiting...and waiting. Fortunately it is always worth the wait.

Get on it John!

BTW....I Grim is still doing amazingly well and although I could never get him out of the tank for a measurement....he certainly looks like he has grown a bit to me


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## Knifeman (Feb 3, 2003)

Grosse Gurke said:


> I'll try to take a pic in the days/weeks ahead. Jeff and some of the other "old heads" on here can tell you that it always took a lot of arm twisting to get me to take fish pictures often.


Unfortunately this is so true.....always leaving us waiting...and waiting...and waiting. Fortunately it is always worth the wait.

Get on it John!

BTW....I Grim is still doing amazingly well and although I could never get him out of the tank for a measurement....he certainly looks like he has grown a bit to me








[/quote]

That is great Jeff. I am really glad he is in good hands. Now I'm going to flip it back to you... GET SOME PICTURES!


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