# Reb belly variants topic



## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Lets use this tread to post pictures of the various Nattereri color shades, so all of them except for the regular red belly. Lets post good quality photos only, no fuzzy or distant shots, that way we can see the fish better









here is an adult 7.75" purple form


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

You ever think that taking pictures of fish sometimes brings out "artificial"colors? Because from the looks of the pics posted above, both fish have purple coloring.

~Dj


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## RhomZilla (Feb 12, 2003)

Good Idea, Nate!!









I know you guys seen these pix before.. but I think these same pix would belong in this catagory. *Mods: pls delete my post if Im wrong

The gold:









The silver:









The black:









And the combo (silver, gold and black):
















Should this be in Important Pictures Topic to show everyone the differnt varieties??


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

InSinUAsian said:


> You ever think that taking pictures of fish sometimes brings out "artificial"colors? Because from the looks of the pics posted above, both fish have purple coloring.
> 
> ~Dj










I agree with this completely.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

the main fish in that pic really does have that color, BCollins will confirm that, he owns it now









the fish in the backround is dead and I really dont remember its coloring though in some of my pics it looks bluish color

like this, look at her lower belly










but I think this coloring is in the scales like an iradecent type look, I have take close high quality pics and zoomed in on individual scales and they have wierd color paterns in them


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Nate,
I am not doubting your pictutes, just that pics can and do enhance colors that would not normaly be seen. Ever since this "purple" variant has been "discovered" everyone seems to think they have one. I would think that if you had a purple red, you would have noticed it before now.


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Im sorry but I still think all the pics of these reds look the same as the ones I used to have. Its all about angling. I dont see in purple in any of the other pics you have posted nate. As for the black, silver, and gold pics... I believe it is all a matter of angle and reflection of light durring pics.

Refute me if you want, but I believe you guys are stretching for something that has no basis. An attempt to make something out of your wonderful reds that is not there. Only do pics prove color variations. I wonder how many of you, sit in front of your tank, waiting for your fish to glimmer in just the right light, and call it a color variation. I wonder if your pic are really representative of your fish all the time, or only a chance color shot.

Like said before, nate, if you are as observant as you claim to be. If you are the scientific mind you claim to be, I believe you would have noticed your red as being purple a long time ago. I dont think that a fish that size would have gone unnoticed for that long, espeacially if it was purple. Come on now, just level with me, was the fish really purple? Or was it the picture that made the fish really purple? I have a hard time believeing that you of all people, that like to make "observations" of your fish and draw conclusions from them, would let a PURPLE fish go unnoticed.

~Dj


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

DJ, I thought it was just a normal thing, I thought they had these odd colors and it was just a sign of maturing

so I never made anything of it in the past, I thought it was normal

I agree I think people are making too big of a fuss over the whole ordeal

it probably has to do with the diet and environment from where the original wild fish were collected, or from inbreeding (if anybody remembers the gold dust debate)

none of my other pics show it because I didnt have my own digi cam while I had that fish, so I dont have many good clear shots of him

ask BCollins to take some pics of him


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

In the pics RhomZilla posted its clear that his fish have different colors the one has a cool bronze color


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

Nate, 
As an educated man, I will take you word. I just think that people look, sometimes, for more then what is really there. You have to aggree with me in that there have been alot of NEW wild claims about natts. You are not new to the hobby nate. Have you ever heard of a green natt or purple natt before just recently? It just seems odd, espeacially when I have personally not seen any "CLEAR" pics to verify this phonominon(sp??). (except for this one you just posted)

Again, as a fellow college student, I will take you word for what it is worth.

If you say you have a purple natt, then that is cool. But before this one, I have not seen a pic on one. Even trayblac's pic, IMO, is kinda questionable.

Good s*it other wise. No malice intended, so I hope it was not taken as such. hahaha. One more thing... dont let Frank punk you so much.







LoL

~Dj


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I agree I think people are making too big of a deal over it, part of the purpose of this topic is to see if there really is a color difference (or as I call it a hue or shade difference), in my opinion Ternetzi are a different color, the pic I posted is a different shade, but still a red belly

and in the past the only other color or shade claims I heard of were the gold dust red belly

these were fish typically found in the great lakes area that were captive bred and had a slight gold tint to them on the silver portions, let me see if I have a pic of that, I had one of those


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I couldnt find any of my old pics of the gold dust red belly


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

I can post pics of my largest red in all sorts of colors (purpleish, blueish, black, grey, greenish, pale): it just depends on the amount of light, wheter you use flashlight ot not, the mood the the fish, the way you edit it in Photoshop, and there are undoubtedly more factors that determine the fish's color on a photo...

I'm not argueing that there may be more color variants than we think of, but I don't think photo's are a good way to determine those variants (because it's always a representation of the real, distorted [even with the best camera...] and, in most cases, edited afterwards...)
So how much value does a photo have in cases like these, besides showing the obvious (ie. that p. Nattereri does have different color variations)?


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## RhomZilla (Feb 12, 2003)

Man, you guys love debating!!







I thought this thread was to show off the different color variation on RBs, not to argue if a certain tint of ones fish is real or created buy lighting.

Im out of this one..


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

my photo was NOT edited except for resizing and cropping, that would be cheating. and my fish is that color, only post pics of fish that are really that color


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I found a good picture of a "green" Natt
this fish and picture belongs to member Rday, and is unedited other than resizing


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

does anybody else have pictures to share?


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

Wait...i'm working in my blue/green Cariba pictures...just kidding!


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## B4theAmazon (Apr 19, 2003)

I'm new to this hobby as of a few months now, and after watching this great debate raging on I have a question without taking a side:

Can you have a purple or green or diamond Natt?

I have been an avid fisherman, and something comes to mind. My fishing posse and I often fish in the northern Canadian lakes & rivers for norther pike and muskellunge, and after over twenty years of fishing up there I caught a blue pike, a pike which was a beautiful pure blue color!!! I catch & release unless we're going to eat the fish, and this one was only about 14" long, so I can't post this because I don't have a picture of it, but it was a cool looking pike. So, in the local pub that night the locals advised this was a rare catch indeed, and had only been reported by anyone every three or four years or so, but that they did exist out there.

So all I'm thinking is....could a purple or green or even all blue Natt be possible simply by the potential of rare genetics?

Many of you are far more knowledgeable when it comes the piranha species, especially with a Pygo vs. a Serrasalmus and so on, but do any of you have any thoughts on this, or have any of you seen genetic anomalies with any species of piranha?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Enjoy, if you don't understand the information will be more than happy to explain it. :

Middle Amazon; Specimens 11.5 mm SL ground color creamy brown; small melanophores are scattered over the lateral body, with the exception of the abdomen region. There are more numerous melanophores on the dorsum of the head, the snout, and the anterior portion of lower jaw. Dense dark coloration lie ventral to the dorsal-fin rays, becoming less numerous posterior along the fin. The caudal and anal fin have a few melanophores along the fin ray giving it an appearance of it being slightly banded. The anal fin additionally has a superficial dark banding along the fin base.The pelvic fin is unpigmented. In specimens around 12-14 mm SL, the melanopores are more numerous, and larger, and are present over the body, except the abdominal region. The primary difference between these two specimens discussed and described is the dense melanophore concentration at the caudal-fin base, forming a dark caudal blotch. In addition, there is a thin band of melanophores ventrally encircling the orbit.The adipose fin is unpigmented. When specimens are about 22 mm SL, concentrations of melanophores are visible along the borders of the caudal fin and anal fin (in those specimens or populations where there such borders). As this geographic form develops to maturity, it has a distinct dusky hue, with the exception of the abdominal area, which remains lightly pigmented. In larger specimens that this, the anal fin forms a dark border. Larger specimens from the middle Amazon, (over 150 mm SL) are heavily pigmented, including the pectoral, anal, dorsal, and caudal fins. The body lacks any reticulate pattern. Adults in breeding condition are very dark, with virtually no pigmentation pattern.

Upper Amazon of Peru; 32-40 mm SL are generally similar to the specimens described above, but there are more melanophores over the entire body, including the small peppery ones, even ventrally to the level of the pectoral fins over the abdominal area. Fins are relatively more dusky. Some of the specimens have a reticulated pattern on the body side, a fairly dense black band of pigment on the anal-fin base, and the caudal spot is quite large, extending onto the caudal-fin base and the anterior of the caudal-fin lobes. There is a fairly dense scattering of melanophores on the dorsal fin, giving it a banded appearance.

Central Amazon area; 59-68 mm SL are again similar to the above described specimens, with a relatively broad band at the anal-fin base and a concentration of melanophores distally on the anal fin. The caudal spot is less developed, but the anterior parts of the caudal lobes remain darkly pigmented; there is a posterior dark caudal band. The pectoral fins has melanophores only on the anterior margin of the first ray. The adipose fin is black-margined. Adults (109-159 mm SL) have numerous tiny melanophores on the body, with concentrations under each scale, but without the reticulated pattern as shown by the Upper Amazon (Peru) specimens described above. The spotting on the sides is less distinct than on smaller specimens. The caudal spot is absent, but a black bar extending from the caudal-fin base onto the dorsal and ventral lobes. Most of the caudal fin is pigmented, including the posterior border. The smaller area proximal is relatively lighter. The anal fin has a dark band along its base, in the scaled area, and a dark distal border. In the largest specimens, body spotting is restricted to the area between the lateral line and the anal-fin base. The dorsal and lateral portions of the body from just behind the head to the caudal-fin base are silvery gray, with red or orange pigment suffused over the area, increasing in intensity in the belly region between the isthmus and anal fin. Head orange to red, more intense anteroventrally; most of the head is dorsally dark gray, suffused with orange to red, especially posterior and ventrally. Eye silvery, with reddish pigment. The lower jaw is dark gray and posterior is the same red or orange as in the abdomen. The pectoral and pelvic fins are red-orange; the dorsal is dark gray-black; the adipose fin is black and hyaline distally; the caudal fin is blackish gray, with a pale sub terminal or posterior border (there is variance from this locality and other locality where hyaline area lies midway between the dark fin base and the dark terminal band).

Upper Paraguay; there was few if any variation found in this population from the others in the basins. None of the characters used could consistently place specimens in relation to their geography. Southern populations clearly range within the variation of the Amazonian and coastal populations, although southern specimens available do not encompass the total size range of Amazonian specimens.

Geographical variance:

The extent and color of the belly pigment is variable ontogenetically, individually, geographically, and according to water conditions in which the fish lives. Post juveniles tend to be brighter and have more coverage of red than larger adults; in many large specimens from throughout the range of this species, the red or orange color is pale and limited in area to the ventral belly. In large adult specimens, the body of the fish maybe be almost entirely black, with bright burnished-gold "spangles" over much of the body. Specimens captured in clear, darker waters are often darkly pigmented with reduced red or orange, at all ages. Pygocentrus nattereri is the most widespread member of the genus and may not consist of a single evolutionary lineage. It is extremely variable in pigmentation and spotting. Pigmentation even within populations can range from yellow through orange to red, with coverage ranging from only a small area in the belly to most of the belly and head. Dark spots can be found on rather large specimens in some populations, but are lacking in others.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I found thisfrom the online dictionary of cell and molecular biology

melanophore
Cell type found in skin of lower vertebrates (amphibian skin, fish scales) that contains granules of the black pigment melanin. The granules can be rapidly redeployed between a dispersed state (which darkens the skin) and concentration at the centre (which lightens it). One of a family of pigmented or light-diffracting, coloured cells, known collectively as chromatophores.

great info, thanks for adding it








Frank I heard through the grape vine that you had an idea of where each color variant was local to, can you add those if so?


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## B4theAmazon (Apr 19, 2003)

Good info hastatus,

but it did remind me of law school a little bit! So, summarize for me - are you allowing for an anomaly such as a purple Natt or not? I understand the variance in pigmentation with regards to geographical origin, but then could a purple Natt come out of say, any of the geographic locations in the South American region?


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## SnowCichlid (Jan 10, 2003)

try posting pics that say "with flash on" & "without" flash, this way the viewer can determine what the apropriate colours are :







:


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

I can see the green all the time on my natt. As for the flash effect it actually takes some of the color away rather than give strange appearances.
Green natt


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## B4theAmazon (Apr 19, 2003)

Green Natt looks nice, and a little hungry in the pic!


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