# problem



## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

i had three reds and recently (month ago) one died. Im not exctly sure why it died, but i had 1ppm ammonia and i figured it was an ammonia spike. I had done some work on the filter set up and think that it could have resulted from that. after it died i changed the filter setup back to the way it had always been (304 canister for bio, ac110 for mechanical on a 75 gallon tank) ANYWAY...

now i have 2 reds. One is "snack attack" if u guys remember him, and another younger red. the younger red is a bully. he has been stressing snack out and snacks been just on the surface of the water gasping for air. i changed 30% water every other day for a week, not because the water conditions were bad, they were fine, just because i was dosing with salt, and because it seemed the right thing to do. 
So snack attack is looking like he may be on his last leg yesterday. i am not sure if the other red is just stressing him out, so i divided the tank last night, but not before the other red scraped a lot of the scales of snack attack.

im not sure its something with the water params or if its stress from the bully. 
im so depressed about this i havent even posted on here, but i figure im stupid not to. anyone have any idea?

ill post pics in a minute.


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## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

this is snack attack: 















this is the f*cker who did that to snacks side:


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

I don't think it's because of stress. My Reds are violent as hell and are always chasing each other around with no ill effects (except the occsional fin nip or minor bite)
Gasping at the surface means he's not getting enough air. That's usually the result of a bacterial bloom, but usually you only get those during a minicycle, and that's obviously not happening if your water params are good.
Sorry man, I'm stumped. You practically brought that poor little guy back from the dead, I hope he makes it.


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## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

Piranha Dan said:


> I don't think it's because of stress. My Reds are violent as hell and are always chasing each other around with no ill effects (except the occsional fin nip or minor bite)
> Gasping at the surface means he's not getting enough air. That's usually the result of a bacterial bloom, but usually you only get those during a minicycle, and that's obviously not happening if your water params are good.
> Sorry man, I'm stumped. You practically brought that poor little guy back from the dead, I hope he makes it.


thanks man yeah i know. o2 levels are HUGE in the tank because i have an air pump hooked to the powerhead as well as a HOB filter.


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

Just saw the pics. Holy sh*t that's bad.
I was figuring he was just missing a few scales or maybe a chunk. I've got no experience with a P ripped up that bad, so maybe stress is making him gasp like that if it's not the O2 levels. You're dosing with salt, how about Melafix?


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## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

Piranha Dan said:


> Just saw the pics. Holy sh*t that's bad.
> I was figuring he was just missing a few scales or maybe a chunk. I've got no experience with a P ripped up that bad, so maybe stress is making him gasp like that if it's not the O2 levels. You're dosing with salt, how about Melafix?


i would be willing to try melafix if u guys think it will help. i used formalin but it doesnt seem to be helping.

also, i think that if it was something with the water conditions, it would effect both fish right? 
the other guy seems totally healthy.

i am trying to give away the other fish cus snack attack is probably my favorite P
its hard to watch this go on. especially after all the sh*t that he has been through. I dont want him to suffer though anymore so i have also been thinking of just putting him down. 








damn.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Nick G said:


> Just saw the pics. Holy sh*t that's bad.
> I was figuring he was just missing a few scales or maybe a chunk. I've got no experience with a P ripped up that bad, so maybe stress is making him gasp like that if it's not the O2 levels. You're dosing with salt, how about Melafix?


i would be willing to try melafix if u guys think it will help. i used formalin but it doesnt seem to be helping.
[/quote]

Formalin---Dont think you should have used that IMO......I would hit up Giggles for that answer....But I'm sure you didn't help it by useing it any-Hopefully I am wrong here.....


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

Melafix is meant as a general treatment for wounds, so if all that really was inflicted by the other P it should help him out. 
Are you sure the skin loss is from the other Red? I've never seen a P bite that just removed skin.


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## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

AKSkirmish said:


> Just saw the pics. Holy sh*t that's bad.
> I was figuring he was just missing a few scales or maybe a chunk. I've got no experience with a P ripped up that bad, so maybe stress is making him gasp like that if it's not the O2 levels. You're dosing with salt, how about Melafix?


i would be willing to try melafix if u guys think it will help. i used formalin but it doesnt seem to be helping.
[/quote]

Formalin---Dont think you should have used that IMO......I would hit up Giggles for that answer....But I'm sure you didn't help it by useing it any-Hopefully I am wrong here.....
[/quote]
damn. i knew i should have asked here first. It said it helps with eternal parasites, so i figured it would be fine. what makes u think that it was bad to use?


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

I said you might not have helped it any--------But anyhow-here is what needs to be read about Formalin-

http://www.geocities.com/koifla/Formalin.htm


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## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

Piranha Dan said:


> I said you might not have helped it any--------But anyhow-here is what needs to be read about Formalin-
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/koifla/Formalin.htm


good info. thanks AK.
guess im going to go get melafix.


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

Nick G said:


> yeah. I know because the tank is by my bed, so i was laying down to take a nap yesterday and watching, as snack was at the surface and the other f*cker kept just like nudging him, and snack wasnt moving much, just kinda getting out of the way, and as he was nudging him i could see the scales sparkling as they fell.


So all it was doing was nudging him and the scales were falling off.....that doesn't sound right. I don't think a fish's scales should fall off just because another fish gives it a head butt.


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## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

ok guys. thanks for the help. 
dan, i dont know, thats just what it looked like. i think that the slime coat may have been weakened from that original amonia problem possibly. 
either way, i just got melafi and dosed it. 
i also picked up this stuff called "bifuran+" because it looked like it could help. Im going to research it now, but anyone have any experience with that stuff?


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Sorry-
I am not familar with that product...


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

Hey Nick -

Melafix is the only med that you've mentioned that I'm familiar with... I'm siding with P_Dan here. That fish looks sick rather than "attacked". I think the other red is going after him because he's sensed a weakness (sickness). If I were you, I'd take "Snack Attack" and put him in a hospital tank... if he IS sick, you don't want the other red to contract whatever is ailing him and you certainly don't want the healthy one to eat him. If you don't have a hospital tank, find someone that has a 10 - 20 gallon tank that's established and can free up the space for you. Seriously... move the fish out of that tank if you truly don't want to lose him - one or the other.

Melafix should work well, but I'd dose with Pimafix too... the two combined work really well. Keep the dosage the same for each - 5mg (1 tsp) per 10 gallons. The way his fins are all tattered and his scales are flaking off, he's at risk for a secondary fungus infection, so the Pimafix can help that while the melafix helps him heal. Also, add aquarium salt at 1 tsp per 5 gallons and that will reduce his stress as well as improve his gill function. Lastly, raise the temp to about 82 to assist in healing.

Good luck, but the sooner you get him out of that tank, the better off he'll be... at the very least, removing the added stress of the other P attacking him will go far toward his recovery.


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## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

Rough996 said:


> Hey Nick -
> 
> Melafix is the only med that you've mentioned that I'm familiar with... I'm siding with P_Dan here. That fish looks sick rather than "attacked". I think the other red is going after him because he's sensed a weakness (sickness). If I were you, I'd take "Snack Attack" and put him in a hospital tank... if he IS sick, you don't want the other red to contract whatever is ailing him and you certainly don't want the healthy one to eat him. If you don't have a hospital tank, find someone that has a 10 - 20 gallon tank that's established and can free up the space for you. Seriously... move the fish out of that tank if you truly don't want to lose him - one or the other.
> 
> ...


thanks. i followed ur advice. i set him up in a 10 gallon tank with the canister filter from his old tank. 
he isnt looking good. 
im going to give it til monday and if i dont see improvement by then, im going to uthanize him. I just dont want to see him suffer, but i want to know i have done all i can. this fish was already basically dead once. i just dont want him to suffer any more than he already has because my ego wants to be the savior. 
thanks for the help guys. anyone else see anything im all ears.


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## roccov12345 (Sep 26, 2008)

I feel your pain man, it's a difficult time to see something that you love go through so much stress. I say it's great that you're even doing as much as you can to help the little guy out and that by definition means a lot. Most people would have given up by now and watched the other P tear him to shreds. I would say hit him with the mela/pima as advised with salt and CLEAN water. Make sure those params are tight and be patient. Don't over do it, it always seems like time is of the essence. I would hold off on the uthanizing him unless it's absolutely imperative. I've seen these fish rebound from some astronomical situations. Stay with what you're doing, keep your fingers crossed and feel proud that you are doing your best.

Good Luck and keep us posted!


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

Nick G said:


> im going to give it til monday and if i dont see improvement by then, im going to uthanize him. I just dont want to see him suffer, but i want to know i have done all i can. this fish was already basically dead once. i just dont want him to suffer any more than he already has because my ego wants to be the savior.
> thanks for the help guys. anyone else see anything im all ears.


Try to keep in mind the fact that he isn't in any pain like you or I would feel if we were that messed up. A fish's nervous system is far less developed then a human beings--they sense injury but don't feel it like your or I do. For example, if I pulled your arm off you'd be laying on the floor screaming "Oh my god! My arm! It hurts!". If a P gets it's fin bitten off it's just like "Oh sh*t! I just lost a fin! I'd better get the hell out of here!". He's by no means happy at the moment but he's not in agony or anything.
Hopefully the meds will do something for him. Good luck man.


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## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

snack attack died.















Snack Attack
guess i never assumed losing a fish would suck so bad. i have lost a few fish, even my first P i thought sucked.... but snack attack was different for me.. guess i just hope he is'nt suffering anymore.
mods please lock this thread i guess















snack


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## lo4life (Aug 12, 2008)

Damn Nick sorry to hear that!


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

awe damn.








Sorry to hear that, Nick. Take good care of the one remaining P... don't get out of the hobby, because we all suffer losses. Get a rhom or something to replace him - name him Snack Attack Jr. - and you'll be over it no time.







Works for me!


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## cobrafox46 (Jun 2, 2008)

Sorry to here Nick. At least you tried to help him. I hope it all works out for ya.


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## khmerboiRED (Jul 15, 2008)

SOrry to hear that Nick. Good karma will come to you in the future just for helping the little fella out to the best of your abilities. You tried your best, and that's really all you can do.


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## Piranha Dan (Nov 11, 2007)

Sh*t.







Snack
Sorry to hear that man. Sounds like you did every thing you could, sometimes it just isn't enough.


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## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

thanks fellas. i appreciate it.


Rough996 said:


> awe damn.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no way, i love this too much haha. it hurt losing snack, but its just the nature of the beast i guess. im going to put my rhom in his old tank, move my eigenmanni to the rhoms tank and set up the 55 for the remaining red.


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## Rough996 (Oct 3, 2006)

Sounds like a good plan. I'm sure the rhom will be thankful. Good luck with the transfers.


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