# Breeding Macs?



## Briaan

Hi, so I just got a shoal of 3 from inflade (thanks man), I know they need time to get comfortable and grow etc, but what would be good parameters for macs to breed? Sand vs gravel? Ph levels? Peat? Plants? Decor? Lighting? and consistency of feeding, the macs are currently 4.5inch give or take, inflade said they had been together all their life, so hopefully they dont chop on each other. My tank is 60 gallons, currently empty of decor, blacked out background floor and one side, planning to fill the bottom with black sand and some Blyxa Japonica, Dwarf Hair Grass, and maybe some jungle vine in the back.What other plants would help if plants do matter? Ive read adding more decor makes them territorial and more prone to fin nipping, so im debating on driftwood, rocks, etc. Other than that, how can I create prime conditions for breeding? should i simulate rain + dry seasons?


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## primetime3wise

macs will breed when they like the conditions and are comfortable in the tank. when i bred them, i had a heavily planted 125g for them, lots of fake rock. after they settled in, they pretty much went at it with a nice bump in temperature, to like 83 or 84. i think they would breed in a 60g. i wouldn't worry too much about ph, peat, etc...just keep parameters steady. mine bred in gravel so i am not sure of sand. i also had like 7 of them in the tank, and i think you are taking a chance they might all be the same sex with just 3 of them.

other than that, it's not too bad. g/l...i have a bunch of threads in this forum about my experience with breeding macs, you may want to check it out.


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## BRUNER247

The decor problem is mainly when they're small. I would go with gravel n not sand. Gravel be better for plants also


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## Briaan

Oh so I should add some decor? And plant my tank? I was thinking black flourite sand? It isn't as dusty as silica, it settles quickly, and benefits the plants and looks pretty nice, but for the piranhas would they feel comfortable with black sand? I really dislike the look of gravel, and Its colors and how big it is, above all it's a pain to clean. I haven't seen any true black gravel, only coated gravels at my lfs. Does the color of the substrate affect their breeding habits? What colors were your gravel? And I read that you had set up a breeding area? What is a breedig area and how did you set it up?


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## BRUNER247

Imo sand SUCKS. Gravels easier to clean again imo. Rbp will spawn in sand or gravel, they don't care. But imo siphoning eggs off sand will be a pita. The male will fan the eggs & bury them in sand(smashing & killing them). I use blk gravel for ease of seeing the orange eggs & because I like the coloration they get from dark sub. Eggs will stick to gravel for a day or so then hatch & wiggle into gravel. This is when I siphon the fry out. Rbp won't care what color your sand or gravel is.& sand will work if that's what you want to use, but I highly doubt you could get close to the #s you could be getting with gravel.


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## Dolphinswin

Im not sure but I dont think they will be breeding that soon, there only 4.5 inches.


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## primetime3wise

mine spawned around 5", so if not now he is pretty close to having them be sexually mature.

i always liked breeding areas. i had 7 macs in a 125g. what i did is arrange the fake plants and decor/rock, in a way to give the fish an area of around 12"x 18" that was surrounded by the plants/decor. i think it helped make them feel more secure and hence apt to breed. if i recall correctly, they bred relatively quickly after i added all that stuff, and bumped the temp. they went crazy breeding @ 84 or so...i had 3 pairs all w/in a few days.

i also prefer gravel for breeding purposes.

i'd look into getting 1 or 2 more. again, with just 3 they may all be same sex, or just difficult to get going...better odds with 1 or 2 more.


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## Dolphinswin

primetime3wise said:


> mine spawned around 5", so if not now he is pretty close to having them be sexually mature.
> 
> i always liked breeding areas. i had 7 macs in a 125g. what i did is arrange the fake plants and decor/rock, in a way to give the fish an area of around 12"x 18" that was surrounded by the plants/decor. i think it helped make them feel more secure and hence apt to breed. if i recall correctly, they bred relatively quickly after i added all that stuff, and bumped the temp. they went crazy breeding @ 84 or so...i had 3 pairs all w/in a few days.
> 
> i also prefer gravel for breeding purposes.
> 
> i'd look into getting 1 or 2 more. again, with just 3 they may all be same sex, or just difficult to get going...better odds with 1 or 2 more.


did any survive outta your batch? I thought i read you had some problems with cannabalism losing most if not all the batch.


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## primetime3wise

cannibalism was VERY brutal once the juvis reached about 1/2"-3/4". i was pulling dead and half eaten ones out of the tank on a regular basis, sometimes 5 a day.

i then sold them to a distributor, and yes i had probably 300 or so that survived until i sold them.

it's why i tell people to get larger ones if they can, it's much better @ 4"+


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## Dolphinswin

primetime3wise said:


> cannibalism was VERY brutal once the juvis reached about 1/2"-3/4". i was pulling dead and half eaten ones out of the tank on a regular basis, sometimes 5 a day.
> 
> i then sold them to a distributor, and yes i had probably 300 or so that survived until i sold them.
> 
> it's why i tell people to get larger ones if they can, it's much better @ 4"+


How does a mac shoal compare to a pygo shoal? Same thing basically or is it different? Macs are often really cool aggressive fish when kept solo or so I have read, I also read its like an entirely different fish when kept in a group?


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## primetime3wise

mine were fairly skittish the whole time i had them. i never had one solo so i am not sure, but i understand what you are saying. i've seen plenty of evidence on this board of solo ones more outgoing around people. there were plenty of fin nips and fighting in the beginning, but once they settle it was not too bad. of course, on this board also i have seen plenty of mac cohabs fail quickly, so maybe i was lucky, or that ones from brazil do better than ones from argentina.


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## Dolphinswin

were they more aggressive feeders or were they just like a group of reds just different in color?


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## Briaan

How long does it take for a mac to mature? and whats their growth rate compared to other serras?


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## primetime3wise

Dolphinswin said:


> How long does it take for a mac to mature? and whats their growth rate compared to other serras?


not 100% sure, but i think after a year or so. after 5" i think they only put on another 1" or so a year. i haven't seen many large ones on this board, so it's hard to say for sure what they max out as...some might @ 7"-8", other quite larger, 11"+


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## Briaan

oh for a 60 gallon i could keep 4-5? inflade warned me about adding more as it could cause problems, and 3 golds are perfect for my tank


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## FEEFA

I highly doubt that those macs will breed


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## BRUNER247

Lol. coming from a person that buys & sells fish like DW. & of course fefe is the Mac expert since he housed a group for a whole two months. Is that all you do here now fefe is jump in Everyones threads & start sh*t?


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## FEEFA

Actually I was under the impression that you're the expert








I simply stated an opinion and am not starting sh*t unlike you are doing right now.

I guarentee that those macs wont breed, 1- those are my old macs that the op has. 2- he's an inexperienced keeper unlike yourself the god of all p's.3- they are 3 in a 60gal.
Again only my opinion.

If you've got nothing better to do than tail every post I make then I suggest you go feed your reds or something.

You're a joke and I'm actually surprised that you're giving up info, are we actually worthy of all your great wisdom and knowledge.

Lose the holier than thou attitude, not everything is about you


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## Briaan

Feefa doesn't like me that's why, get over it dude. If you don't have advice or anything good to say, then don't say anything, nobody likes to hear negative sh*t, anyways back on topic, whether the macs breed or not, creating a comfortable environment and giving ideal parameters is the best we can do, that's what I'm trying to do, you can bring a horse to a river but you can't make him drink, so understand the point of this thread.


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## FEEFA

I could care less about you!

I simply gave my opinion. I wish you luck in breeding those fish but like I said I dont think it will happen.
I know those fish...Do you know why? Because those are my old macs.
If breeding macs was as easy as Bruner is making it sound then how come he hasnt been able to breed them.
He's the p king, surely he can breed them


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## Briaan

And you make it sound like taking care of piranhas need a phD, it isn't that hard, good filtration, ideal water conditions, and proper nutrition. Experience does help, but when I have a problem I can ask the forum? ^so in the end, having no experience doesn't hurt as much as being a douche.

You used the wrong expression, it's I can't care less, not you can care less, that means you still care a bit







, anyways it may take a year for them to just be comfortable. Did you try to breed this macs before? And how long did you have them for?


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## FEEFA

How am I being a douche, I give an opinion and I'm a douche.

Looks like we have yet another noob that will soon be hanging off of bruner coat tails. LOL

Best of luck with your breeding attempt, I hope that they spawn for you.
Be sure and document it when they do so you can recieve the breeding award











Briaan said:


> And you make it sound like taking care of piranhas need a phD, it isn't that hard, good filtration, ideal water conditions, and proper nutrition. Experience does help, but when I have a problem I can ask the forum? ^so in the end, having no experience doesn't hurt as much as being a douche.
> 
> _*You used the wrong expression, it's I can't care less, not you can care less,*_ that means you still care a bit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , anyways it may take a year for them to just be comfortable. Did you try to breed this macs before? And how long did you have them for?










Wow that was great


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## Briaan

I didn't call you douche, did you read anywhere that I said you were a douche? Don't assume sh*t And I'm not following Bruner, you've been on my dick since I've tried selling marks Rhom. Advice on the macs or gtfo.


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## FEEFA

Here's my advice, a noob like you will not be able to breed those macs so dont waste your time.
But what do I know I dont have a phd.


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## Briaan

being newb isn't a bad thing, everyones a newb at some point, but being a knowledgeable person n bashing Newbs is pretty low, I know your opinion is that I wont be able to breed macs, you may be right, I'm not disputing that, but what basis do you base your opinion on? Have you tried to breed them your self? Have you had these macs long enough to try? I would like those questions answered, and let's not turn this forum into a bash, I don't want it closed.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

Let's not get another thread closed down, especially one where there's some good info being shared -- if you guys wanna argue, take it to PM.


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## FEEFA

Briaan said:


> being newb isn't a bad thing, everyones a newb at some point, but being a knowledgeable person n bashing Newbs is pretty low, I know your opinion is that I wont be able to breed macs, you may be right, I'm not disputing that, but what basis do you base your opinion on? Have you tried to breed them your self? Have you had these macs long enough to try? I would like those questions answered, and let's not turn this forum into a bash, I don't want it closed.


You're right there is nothing wrong with being a noob, I was a noob once, hell even the almighty bruner was a noob once.
There is a certain attitude that sometimes comes with it though, a "if he is and can do it then I can do it to" which is not always the case. You and again this is only my opinion, are showing signs of this attitude, I could be wrong but thats the feeling I'm getting.

If it was easy everyone would be doing it.

Also you have a better chance of breeding serras if you've atleast bred reds or even other fish before, which I dont think you have.

Like I said I stated an opinion and as usual got jumped on, take it how you want it.

Again best of luck with your breeding, I cant wait to see pics and video


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## Briaan

Thanks, again avoid answering the questions, I'm not jumping onto breeding merely asking what conditions would help, ^so I can do it from day one, ^so I don't have to change up their tank again later, as you know they will feel uncomfortable if I do change the decor. Make sense? Anyways thanks for the info you've given me, your help was really appreciated, your just a great pfury member, I'll pm you if I successfully breed them, if not illl then a Mac shaol isn't bad, I may add another Mac to grow with them Incase they all are the same sex. Ideal conditions is the best I can do, so I'll do that and see what happens.


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## FEEFA

Briaan said:


> being newb isn't a bad thing, everyones a newb at some point, but being a knowledgeable person n bashing Newbs is pretty low, I know your opinion is that I wont be able to breed macs, you may be right, I'm not disputing that, but what basis do you base your opinion on? Have you tried to breed them your self? Have you had these macs long enough to try? I would like those questions answered, and let's not turn this forum into a bash, I don't want it closed.


My opinion is based on the fact that you have no prior breeding experience and the fact that its not as easy as some members make it out to be.

No I have never attempted to breed p's but have bred other types of fish.

And I only had those p's for 2-3months so no I did not have them long enough to breed nor did I try to.

I did not liuke the group, they were always on edge and never seemed relaxed/comfortable. I have kept and much prefer to have serras solo, I find that they are more comfortable and show more personality when they're solo.
Again thats only my opinion based on keeping a solo mac for over a year who was crazy as they come compared to the shoal for three months that never seemed comfortable.
Any more questions???


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## Briaan

Oh okay that makes sense, ^so you've never had any experience with breeding ps, and have experience breeding other fish? I've breed other fish aswell, and wouldn't it take more than 2-3 months for piranhas to get completely comfortable? That would make sense why they are on edge? Your opinion shouldn't be based on what you've experienced if you didn't actually attempt, for one thing, I plan to keep these macs, not to trade or sell, meaning if it takes a year, they will eventually feel comfortable, and if they're comfortable they may be MORE prone to breed. Breeding Ps isn't a walk in the park, but there's plenty of info on this site and others about breeding, meaning I can read up, not attempt trial and error. I can promote ideal conditions and attempt to breed, but it won't be easy, and my first step to do this is creating a aquarium with the nesscessary decor, substrate, and water parameters. Thanks for your opinion.


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## FEEFA

Your welcome and again good luck with it


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## FEEFA

However breeding p's does take some trial and error and IMO they will never be 100% comfortable when grouped together.
Again thats only based on experience but thats all I can base my opinions on. Thats obviously not good enough though so why waste anymore of my time. I guess all the knowledge on the site wasnt based on experience but magically thought up by some guy who spoke with the fish and recorded all of the info that is now aavailable on these fish









Hopefully you'll keep the macs longer than I did and longer than you kept that rhom,


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## Briaan

Still on the Rhom, get over it dude, the site has experience breeders, you aren't one of them, therefore when we re talking about breeding, you have no valid opinion, you may have kept the macs, but for a short period of time, not long enough to have a say in their comfort level. And you are wasting your breathe, if you've read everything I've said, you wouldn't say sh*t, you just pick at a phrase or two, anyways back on the point, your opinion is as valid as mine if I went on to a cichlid breeding forum, I've kept cichlids before, traded them, fed them, treated them, but never attempted to breed them, you may be knowledge on the other forums but breeding piranhas no. Therefore your opinion on breeding piranhas means jack sh*t. Thanks for looking


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## FEEFA

Like I stated above, theres the "if he can do it than I can do it attitude'

Good luck kid, you're going to need it


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## Briaan

I didn't say I can do it or not, I said I'll try, I don't know what your talking about. I don't know why your assuming things, take it as face value. Your opinion isn't relevant towards breeding, and this thread is about promoting breeding conditions, therefore your wasting your time and a mod might come close this thread because of this constant back n forth, While others can contribute to this thread and maybe you might learn something.


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## FEEFA

FYI I only know of one member here was able to succesfully breed some macs so I guess you should turn all of your questions to him since he's the only one that has the expeience to voice an opinion on the topic, Based on your logic anyway.

There have been others here like you who "will" be the ones to do it and prove douches/inexperianced keepers like myself wrong.
Good luck and when you prove me wrong I'll be the first to congratulate you and tell you I was wrong. But until then I have my opinions and I'm allowed to express them just like you are.
I'm done, good luck


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## Briaan

Your right and I made this thread for that specific purpose, why would I ask a lawyer to fix my car? That's your logic. You seem to think that your opinion does matter when you don't have any experience breeding yourself, bottom line, your opinion didn't matter then, and doesn't matter now, in this thread atleast, it shouldnt have taken so long for you to realize that.


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## FEEFA




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## CLUSTER ONE

primetime3wise, febsalien aka Uncle Jesse and I guess you can say ex p fury member serrasalmuscollector have all bred macs. I beleive robertm1 or something like that bred them too though he used primetime3wises old macs.

Like Joe already warned stay on topic or go to pm.

Obviously with only 3 there is decent chance that they could be all one sex or just two fish that probably won't hook up. A larger tank and group is ideal though to breed them all you really need is a male and female so if you have each sex its possible though it will probably be harder then if you had a group in a larger tank.


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## Briaan

I also have a 2.5 incher, I'm hesitant to put him with the shaol, I'm scared he'll get eaten, if I put the smaller Mac with the other macs, how long would it take the smaller Mac to mature?


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## CLUSTER ONE

Briaan said:


> I also have a 2.5 incher, I'm hesitant to put him with the shaol, I'm scared he'll get eaten, if I put the smaller Mac with the other macs, how long would it take the smaller Mac to mature?


 At this size he will probably be eaten. He will be growing at a fater rate then the otehrs so if you bump up his temp and feed him good I think you could probably add them together within a year. The others were 4.5" right?


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## Grosse Gurke

A lot more then just those mentioned have bred them. Not much is required to get them to spawn....much more in keeping the fry alive.

About all the back and forth on this thread....I suggest you all just leave it be and move on. There is more then enough personal attacks to get a few members a day or two off. Joe asked you to stop and it continued....if there is anymore...I am going to suspend the members and close this thread. I hope that is clear enough. You both sound educated enough to carry on an discussion/argument without resorting to personal attacks...and if you are not....then breeding fish should be the last of your worries.


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## CLUSTER ONE

Who all has bred macs? The only other one I can think of is some zoo type breeding or something.


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## Sylar_92

Macs will kill off the smaller ones if they arent fed enough, But Im sure you have been feeding 1 or twice a day right? If you are isolating the smaller one right now just try to make them accept the food then watch there behaviour once you place the smaller one in. Its normal for Ps to give a welcom nudge to the new guy, but if they dart towards him and start to go into the offence dance then you might want to isolate him. Dont move him around alot though he may get too stressed. good luck man, Im sure you can raise those macs proper, Since I a noob can successfully convert my rhoms and reds from switching from live to a pure shrimp and pellet diet.


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## Grosse Gurke

A friend of mine and Serrapygos was breeding them 10-2 years ago and supplying George. This was back when they were called gold spilos.


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## BRUNER247

Lmmfao! Following my coat tail! I'm not even gonna comment on the sh*t your puking out your pie hole. Fefe just jealous cause he paid to much for his fish n kept them a month or two. Anyhow many if not all mac breeders have stated they're no harder than rbp! If you can get them to tolerate each other. ANY noob has just as big a chance to spawn macs as I do. Any noob can spawn rbp without even trying if the fish are mature & comfortable. NOWHERE on this site have a stated I know anything more than the next guy but yet you still talk sh*t fefe. & don't flatter yourself bout me following you around, I haven't even been on this site in a week. I will follow you around though if you want the special attention. OP don't let members tell you, you can't breed them or thhey won't ever breed. Because its BS!! Get them comfortable & you have it whipped.. Oh & fefe don't act like you know what I've done, where I've been, or what I know. YOU ONLY KNOW WHAT I LET YOU KNOW!!! Last thing. Your right fefe you stated your opinion as did I. But your the one again blowing things way out of proportion. Shame mods let it go as long as they have!!

THANK YOU GG! Stupid BS is getting old, one of the reasons I haven't barely even been here this last week.


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## Briaan

Yeah the bigger ones are 4.5, and the smaller one is 2.5, how's the Mac growth rate? Is it similar to rbp?


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## FEEFA

BRUNER247 said:


> Lmmfao! Following my coat tail! I'm not even gonna comment on the sh*t your puking out your pie hole. Fefe just jealous cause he paid to much for his fish n kept them a month or two. Anyhow many if not all mac breeders have stated they're no harder than rbp! If you can get them to tolerate each other. ANY noob has just as big a chance to spawn macs as I do. Any noob can spawn rbp without even trying if the fish are mature & comfortable. NOWHERE on this site have a stated I know anything more than the next guy but yet you still talk sh*t fefe. & don't flatter yourself bout me following you around, I haven't even been on this site in a week. I will follow you around though if you want the special attention. OP don't let members tell you, you can't breed them or thhey won't ever breed. Because its BS!! Get them comfortable & you have it whipped.. Oh & fefe don't act like you know what I've done, where I've been, or what I know. YOU ONLY KNOW WHAT I LET YOU KNOW!!! Last thing. Your right fefe you stated your opinion as did I. But your the one again blowing things way out of proportion. Shame mods let it go as long as they have!!
> 
> THANK YOU GG! Stupid BS is getting old, one of the reasons I haven't barely even been here this last week.


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## Grosse Gurke

BRUNER247 said:


> Lmmfao! Following my coat tail! I'm not even gonna comment on the sh*t your puking out your pie hole. Fefe just jealous cause he paid to much for his fish n kept them a month or two. Anyhow many if not all mac breeders have stated they're no harder than rbp! If you can get them to tolerate each other. ANY noob has just as big a chance to spawn macs as I do. Any noob can spawn rbp without even trying if the fish are mature & comfortable. NOWHERE on this site have a stated I know anything more than the next guy but yet you still talk sh*t fefe. & don't flatter yourself bout me following you around, I haven't even been on this site in a week. I will follow you around though if you want the special attention. OP don't let members tell you, you can't breed them or thhey won't ever breed. Because its BS!! Get them comfortable & you have it whipped.. Oh & fefe don't act like you know what I've done, where I've been, or what I know. YOU ONLY KNOW WHAT I LET YOU KNOW!!! Last thing. Your right fefe you stated your opinion as did I. But your the one again blowing things way out of proportion. Shame mods let it go as long as they have!!
> 
> THANK YOU GG! Stupid BS is getting old, one of the reasons I haven't barely even been here this last week.


Posting suspended for 24 hours. Anyone else? Might as well get this out of the way.


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## Sylar_92

Briaan said:


> Yeah the bigger ones are 4.5, and the smaller one is 2.5, how's the Mac growth rate? Is it similar to rbp?


I think its a bit faster than rhoms but not by alot, the babies will grow really fast for the majority of their juvenile stage but once they get into their subadult stages and older they slow to the same rate as a rhom of 1/2-1 inch a year.


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## FEEFA

Sylar_92 said:


> Yeah the bigger ones are 4.5, and the smaller one is 2.5, how's the Mac growth rate? Is it similar to rbp?


I think its a bit faster than rhoms but not by alot, the babies will grow really fast for the majority of their juvenile stage but once they get into their subadult stages and older they slow to the same rate as a rhom of 1/2-1 inch a year.
[/quote]

I agree, they do grow quicker than rhoms but also slow down after the first year.
My first mac was 4in when I bought it and in a year grew to 6in


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## Briaan

I'll set up my tank first n hopefully they get comfy fast, well eventually see what happens


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## CLUSTER ONE

Briaan said:


> I'll set up my tank first n hopefully they get comfy fast, well eventually see what happens


 It took my reds like 3 years before they bred time is always good to have though I have heard of some people having reds breed pretty much as soon as they reach sexual maturity so anythign can happen


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## Sylar_92

CLUSTER ONE said:


> I'll set up my tank first n hopefully they get comfy fast, well eventually see what happens


It took my reds like 3 years before they bred time is always good to have though I have heard of some people having reds breed pretty much as soon as they reach sexual maturity so anythign can happen
[/quote]

I have 11 RB fry, I hope some grow into breeding pairs. I also heard sometimes they wont breed until after 4 years of sexual maturity but I guess it all depends on the piranha's comfortbility. I find that reds are like the average teenager, once they find out the can have sex they jump at the oppertunity lol.


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## CLUSTER ONE

As soon as they reach sexual maturity they can breed. I have heard of reds breeding for the first time at both 1 year and 8 years old so they can breed any time after maturity in which the situation is adequet for breeding.


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## primetime3wise

CLUSTER ONE said:


> A lot more then just those mentioned have bred them. Not much is required to get them to spawn....much more in keeping the fry alive.
> 
> About all the back and forth on this thread....I suggest you all just leave it be and move on. There is more then enough personal attacks to get a few members a day or two off. Joe asked you to stop and it continued....if there is anymore...I am going to suspend the members and close this thread. I hope that is clear enough. You both sound educated enough to carry on an discussion/argument without resorting to personal attacks...and if you are not....then breeding fish should be the last of your worries.


you've got that right. my fry were feasting on each other all day and there was not much i could do about it. once they reached the 1/2"+ size, they were brutal. i was still feeding them 3-4x/day and it made little difference...i was pulling out at least 5-10 dead per day from cannibalism...mostly eaten fins and eaten eyes.


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## CLUSTER ONE

Im not saying a breeding never happend if it wasn't documented on some forum but rather I can only think of a few varified breedings that I know of.


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## r1dermon

60g is pretty small...

serras, even the ones that get along together in captivity...generally dont last http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?/topic/198509-geryi-really-beat-up/page__pid__2667921__st__20#entry2667921


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## Dolphinswin

Grosse Gurke said:


> As soon as they reach sexual maturity they can breed. I have heard of reds breeding for the first time at both 1 year and 8 years old so they can breed any time after maturity in which the situation is adequet for breeding.


I bought 4 adult reds and they bred within 2 weeks, didnt do anything to stimulate them or anything.


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## r1dermon

can't we just stick to the topic DW?


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## Dolphinswin

read the second part of my last post ^^^^^^^^


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## FEEFA

Do know approx how old your reds were when you got them Dolphin?
They may have been really mature.

Also sometimes when mature fish get moved to a new tank it sometimes triggers spawning, maybe thats how you got lucky with yours


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## Dolphinswin

FEEFA said:


> Do know approx how old your reds were when you got them Dolphin?
> They may have been really mature.
> 
> Also sometimes when mature fish get moved to a new tank it sometimes triggers spawning, maybe thats how you got lucky with yours


Im sure thats how it happened. I have not the slightest clue on how old they were.


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## Grosse Gurke

Dolphinswin said:


> wheres feefas suspension>?


Not sure who you think you are kid...but take 24 hours and think about it.


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

I have a question you have 4 Macs 3 are in a 60 long most likely and you are wanting to breed them. So if by chance they spawn for you how many tanks do you have ready for the fry and what do you plan on feeding them. Do you have a brine hatchery, sponge filters,multiple cycled tanks of atleast 10 or 20 gallons. I think its good you want to learn to breed these fish but do you have any idea what you will need once they breed.

I would start by picking up a 100 long set up lots of cover and a drip system wouldnt hurt either. Keep you 60 for a holding tank for larger fry and pick up about 10 tanks of around 20 gallons and pick up a brine hatchery just to be ready.

Do you have any pics of your set up and your fish?


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## Briaan

not breeding them yet, they still need a lot of time to become comfortable, just seeing what conditions could work in my tank.


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## primetime3wise

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


> I have a question you have 4 Macs 3 are in a 60 long most likely and you are wanting to breed them. So if by chance they spawn for you how many tanks do you have ready for the fry and what do you plan on feeding them. Do you have a brine hatchery, sponge filters,multiple cycled tanks of atleast 10 or 20 gallons. I think its good you want to learn to breed these fish but do you have any idea what you will need once they breed.
> 
> I would start by picking up a 100 long set up lots of cover and a drip system wouldnt hurt either. Keep you 60 for a holding tank for larger fry and pick up about 10 tanks of around 20 gallons and pick up a brine hatchery just to be ready.
> 
> Do you have any pics of your set up and your fish?


that's great advice...and even after a few short weeks or months, it can get really tiring taking care of fry, daily. some of my macs were going at it again after only 10 days, so, be warned that most of the work comes AFTER they spawn.

i also like the idea of a 100g if you can, and add at least 2 more macs, i would think it would greatly improve your odds.


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

Briaan said:


> not breeding them yet, they still need a lot of time to become comfortable, just seeing what conditions could work in my tank.


I know your not I read the whole thread but I am just letting you know it is very costly and more work than you think to end up with enough fry to cover the cost of the feedings,filters,tanks,lights and it goes on and on.

I personally would not want to breed Macs or Reds as it has been done before and they are just not woth it to keep flooding the market. If you are serious about wanting to breed start reading and searching and think about doing RRS or Sanch or just something thats not tried to often. We need to start working on species that have not been breed before. We are gainng nothing by breeding the same fish over and over. Chances are you will not have a compatible pair and you will never have a spawn but it would be much more rewarding to try on a species that has never been breed.

But like I said a 60 is way to small and you need to look at getting a 6' 100g first to even have a chance.

Good Luck


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## primetime3wise

^^^agreed. i wish some more people would try terns, cariba, or piraya. i would think terns would have a decent chance considering they are a p. nattereri variant. who knows, i could get really lucky with my remaining s. geryi.


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## Johnny_Zanni

primetime3wise said:


> ^^^agreed. i wish some more people would try terns, cariba, or piraya. i would think terns would have a decent chance considering they are a p. nattereri variant. who knows, i could get really lucky with my remaining s. geryi.


Frank bred Terns with no stimulation. It was while he was doing a S.Sanchezi experiment.

In theory it would be easy. Hopefully someone has a break through soon. Seeing as the species are on the decline


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## CLUSTER ONE

Link to frank breeding terns?


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## Inflade

Briann, you need a larger tank for starters. I'm not even sure your tank is 60 gallons. Take the dimensions and use a calulator on line to figure out if it is. If it is a 60 gallon tank, its a 60 tall, not the proper tank for housing Macs. Your tank is only 36 long and 12 deep. That rhom had barely enough room to turn around.

Also your filtration, perhaps you can post your set up so others can see. What was the first thing I said to you? "You need another filter." Macs are extreamly territorial, I have mine in a 75 gallon tank that's small for even an experianced hobbiest. Eventually they will be in a 100 gallon +.

My suggestion is to focus on keeping those fish in a proper environment. Get a larger tank, larger filter, and more knowlege of the hobby before even considering breeding. That's my 2 sense.

And although I think Feefa was a little too passionate in some of his words, I think he was right on a majority of his points.

Its ok to be a noob, just accept it and listen to peoples advice.


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## Grosse Gurke

CLUSTER ONE said:


> Link to frank breeding terns?


Frank posted that he had what he thought were eggs in his tub....but in the pictures I saw I couldnt tell. He also had more then just ternetzi in that tub...not sure you could say which species was responsible.


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## Briaan

Alright inflade, I Got you, but about feefa being right I disagree, a bigger tank would help but you told me yourself it would work, if my tank isn't a 60 gal it can't be less than 50.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

What are the dimensions?


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## r1dermon

i think you need to realize (perhaps you already do), that nothing is a guarantee, ESPECIALLY in this hobby when it pertains to cohabbing piranhas. even pygo's flip out and eat each other, but serras are proven time and time again, that they simply dont mix well in a small aquarium. breeding is an act of nature. it should be treated as such. similarities in habitat must be obeyed IMO. unless you can figure out a way to artificially inseminate piranhas.

with that in mind, simply putting a bunch of piranhas in a 60g might be a bit naive to think they're going to breed...and dont get me wrong, you may luck out and you'll have thousands of fry that all chase fingers. but there is so much more to it than that, and i know that when the likely scenario plays out, and you start losing fish...you're going to move on to something else, piranha or otherwise. and to me that seems like a waste. not only a waste of some perfectly good fish, but also of your time and effort. i think more emphasis must be paid to bringing about tangeable results, and honestly, a 60g is not enough "effort" imo. if that's all you have access to, then i sincerely wish you luck, but im not going to be optimistic about it. these fish are fin and scale nippers by nature, and a lot of times their nips can turn into chunks of flesh. in a small aquarium, the submissive fish simply cannot get away from the dominant one and will become lunch.

good luck is all i have left to say. and if you do end up breeding them successfully, and you can raise some 1" fry...PM me, i'll buy some.


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## BRUNER247

Rbp can spawn at 9-10months of age. So macs are probably mature around the same age. Not saying they will spawn that early but they can.


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## Inflade

Briaan said:


> Alright inflade, I Got you, but about feefa being right I disagree, a bigger tank would help but you told me yourself it would work, if my tank isn't a 60 gal it can't be less than 50.


I was trying to be optimistic for you. I did say it COULD work work on txt before even seeing your set up. i have seen your set up and im telling you the chances of success will increase if you take a better approach. *Post the dimensions of your tank, and we can confirm the size*. The fact that your tank is taller then width and length makes it even harder for the fish.

Sure you can keep a massive rhom in a 180 gallon tank. but its not a tank 2 feet long, 2 feet wide and 6 feet tall....

That's my point.

Feefa was right in your attitude as well, i have read these posts and you need to open your mind to constructive criticism. When i started i had 3 6" reds in a 29 gallon. i didn't know it was wrong, but as soon as i did, i bought a 180 gallon and put the fish where they were meant to be. You told impallas that you had a huge tank for that rhom, when in reality you have a set up that is for a solo p like a juvi rhom, or Sanchezi. That tank isnt ideal for a 6" elong let alone a 10" Rhom. I knew this with my experience and just wanted to rescue that Rhom. If Mark knew the size of tank that the BDR was going into he wouldn't have sold it, i know that.

The point is, everyone makes mistakes. Take out of this the fundimental advice the general population are giving you here:

Larger tank
Better filtration
Proper care and commitment


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## Johnny_Zanni

Grosse Gurke said:


> Link to frank breeding terns?


Frank posted that he had what he thought were eggs in his tub....but in the pictures I saw I couldnt tell. He also had more then just ternetzi in that tub...not sure you could say which species was responsible.
[/quote]

He seen 2 ternetzi breeding. Pulled eggs and hatched them. They died though.

Cluster its in his sanchezi cohab experiment.

And he probly has a 36x12x21" tank. 38 gallons.


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## FEEFA

Here is an example of how to properly house a mac shoal, notice all the room? I believe its a 180-220gal tank.
A friend recently said to me via pm that "they're just fish, if they die I'll get more" so I showed him this video, perhaps this will help the op realize the importance of tank size aswell.


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## Johnny_Zanni

Some people just like to say they have piranha. Some just don't care for the fish at all. Thats the kind of people that say they are just a fish.


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## FEEFA

Johnny_Zanni said:


> Some people just like to say they have piranha. Some just don't care for the fish at all. Thats the kind of people that say they are just a fish.


You're absolutely right Zanni, and those same people will ignorantly argue proper methods/reasonable methods of keeping.

Back on topic, Those macs are over 2 yrs old so should definately be mature enough to breed, given the right conditions of course


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## Grosse Gurke

FEEFA said:


> Here is an example of how to properly house a mac shoal, notice all the room? I believe its a 180-220gal tank.
> A friend recently said to me via pm that "they're just fish, if they die I'll get more" so I showed him this video, perhaps this will help the op realize the importance of tank size aswell.
> 
> http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


IMO...tank size is overrated. I had 8 maculatus in a 180 and now I have two. Want to know why? Because the two I have killed every other fish in that tank...not because they didnt have room...but because they wanted too. Together...they are perfect...not a fin nip or scratch on them....add another fish and that fish is done.


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

FEEFA said:


> Here is an example of how to properly house a mac shoal, notice all the room? I believe its a 180-220gal tank.
> A friend recently said to me via pm that "they're just fish, if they die I'll get more" so I showed him this video, perhaps this will help the op realize the importance of tank size aswell.
> 
> http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


That video is of one of my personal freind tanks. That tank was a 135 6'x18" and they still nipped each other and killed one even with all the space.


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## FEEFA

Are your 2 still in the 180gal?

I understand but surely a larger tank should increase the odds of success, not in your case but I would imagine most of the time?
No way to know either way for sure unless multiple tanks and fish were setup together though.

There is a minimum tank requirment for these fish though and that would be 1 in a 36x12, and the 12in width would still be limiting even for a solo species if it eventually get bigger than 6-7in.
Footprint and gallonage go hand in hand when it comes to providing a comfortable environment for my fish.


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## Johnny_Zanni

I think what Feefa is trying to say is. Its not right to cramp 3 4-5" maculatus in a 36x12 tank.


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## Grosse Gurke

FEEFA said:


> Are your 2 still in the 180gal?


Yeah...they are.


> I understand but surely a larger tank should increase the odds of success, not in your case but I would imagine most of the time?
> No way to know either way for sure unless multiple tanks and fish were setup together though.


You tell me. Arnold (Hollywood) gave me the fish and he had them in a 75 gallon from the size of 1" to about 5". I know he lost a couple along the way....but not the massacre I had when I put them in a 180.


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

Grosse Gurke said:


> Are your 2 still in the 180gal?


Yeah...they are.


> I understand but surely a larger tank should increase the odds of success, not in your case but I would imagine most of the time?
> No way to know either way for sure unless multiple tanks and fish were setup together though.


You tell me. Arnold (Hollywood) gave me the fish and he had them in a 75 gallon from the size of 1" to about 5". I know he lost a couple along the way....but not the massacre I had when I put them in a 180.

[/quote]

Where were your Macs from GG, captive or wild and from witch local. My small Argentina Macs seem a little more vicious than the captives I have had.


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## BRUNER247

I still have 2 groups of 5 in 36"x12" tanks. Not a single nip on any fins & haven't had any for some time now. I've even cut their food back to every 2-3 days. I have 6' tanks empty.but why mess with something that's working so smooth right now?


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

BRUNER247 said:


> I still have 2 groups of 5 in 36"x12" tanks. Not a single nip on any fins & haven't had any for some time now. I've even cut their food back to every 2-3 days. I have 6' tanks empty.but why mess with something that's working so smooth right now?


That's the thing with serras, sometimes it just works and when it does, any little change can flip things upside down. I had two macs together for about two years with not a single problem, they always hung out right next to each other, but when I switched them to a different tank, they fought so bad I had to seperate them.


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## BRUNER247

Hell didn't George spawn some macs in a 30L 8+ years ago? This is a 12" wide tank. Same ft print as 55gal. Bigger isn't necessarily better. The fish don't care if its 12" wide or 24" wide when they're wanting to spawn.


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## r1dermon

GG i'll respectfully disagree...a 180 might sound big, but comparative to their natural habitat, it's barely a molecule of water...to support the theory that a larger tank greatly increases the odds of cohabitation...the only captive successful breeding that im aware of, involving Rhom's took place in a 1200g densely planted tank. these fish need their space, and space is something that home aquariums lack.


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## Inflade

i think we can all collectively agree, that each situation is different, but there is definitely a cut off point for tank size and a minimum.

Briann, again i say, post your dimensions and lets see that actual size of the tank.


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## BRUNER247

Rhoms are different. They've spawn in a 30long. If they spawned in a 4'x12" tank they'll spawn in anything if they're comfortable & WANT to spawn. Just like rbp will.


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## Johnny_Zanni

Inflade said:


> i think we can all collectively agree, that each situation is different, but there is definitely a cut off point for tank size and a minimum.
> 
> Briann, again i say, post your dimensions and lets see that actual size of the tank.


x2


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## Briaan

100cm x 40cm x 50cm, i calculated it its 50 gallons, my bad.


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## Briaan

and i don't neglect the piranhas, its just a fish but its not like i starve them, don't to water changes, or clean my filters. i do bi weekly changes every Wednesday night and Saturday morning. I feed them everyday in case they get hungry n chomp on each other, i put bite sizes peices of shrimp in after school - dinner, 4pm - usually 7pm, i take them out after if theres any left, and atm theres plenty left, i drop in approx 6 pieces of shrimp, 1-4 pieces come are left behind, i suspect one of the macs still aren't eating and the other two ignore the food after a few bites. I took infalde's advice n added another filter from the turtle tank i had. And i placed the smaller mac in n hes been doing fine, the bigger macs don't seem to mind him.


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## BRUNER247

16" wide. Plenty of room


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## jmax611

Grosse Gurke said:


> Here is an example of how to properly house a mac shoal, notice all the room? I believe its a 180-220gal tank.
> A friend recently said to me via pm that "they're just fish, if they die I'll get more" so I showed him this video, perhaps this will help the op realize the importance of tank size aswell.
> 
> http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


IMO...tank size is overrated. I had 8 maculatus in a 180 and now I have two. Want to know why? Because the two I have killed every other fish in that tank...not because they didnt have room...but because they wanted too. Together...they are perfect...not a fin nip or scratch on them....add another fish and that fish is done.
[/quote]

This vid is mine. I had 6 macs in this 180g. They were ok with each other for a while but then a few started picking each other off. So I traded them in to ash toward my big rhom. Someone on here bought them from him and they bred for him. I ended up with some of the babies but had no luck with them. I also had 8 baby elongs that didn't work. I stick to solo serras from now on.


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## BRUNER247

Not much fun in that.


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## Grosse Gurke

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


> GG i'll respectfully disagree...a 180 might sound big, but comparative to their natural habitat, it's barely a molecule of water...to support the theory that a larger tank greatly increases the odds of cohabitation...the only captive successful breeding that im aware of, involving Rhom's took place in a 1200g densely planted tank. these fish need their space, and space is something that home aquariums lack.


When you have kept these fish.....let me know your experience...until then....I dont know that you should talk about how they behave in a tank. It is all about making them feel comfortable...and more often then not....the less space they need to defend...the more comfortable the seem to be. Your theory sounds right...but when it comes to fish in a tank....not so much.


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## banshee42096

i started with 13 baby golds grew them out in a 10 gal at first lost 3-4 then moved them to a 40 till about 2.5 to 3 inches in size i lost all but 3 now there in a 180 i added 1 more that was 1 inch smaller and to this day i have not had a problem yet i hope i dont but seeing what they did already im expecting it.i have 7 more growing up sa i have replacments.good luck golds are very tricky to keep imo but im newer to ps.


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## Piranha-Freak101

BRUNER247 said:


> Not much fun in that.


X2


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## Inflade

Ok, all this information and shared experience is great. But I think for a moment we need to focus on Briann and the point of this thread. Is a 50 gallon tank suitable and a proper environment to house 4 sub adult macs? I'm going to hold off giving my opinion until I can get at a computer vs on my phone.

Let's hear it.


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

jmax611 said:


> Here is an example of how to properly house a mac shoal, notice all the room? I believe its a 180-220gal tank.
> A friend recently said to me via pm that "they're just fish, if they die I'll get more" so I showed him this video, perhaps this will help the op realize the importance of tank size aswell.
> 
> http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


IMO...tank size is overrated. I had 8 maculatus in a 180 and now I have two. Want to know why? Because the two I have killed every other fish in that tank...not because they didnt have room...but because they wanted too. Together...they are perfect...not a fin nip or scratch on them....add another fish and that fish is done.
[/quote]

This vid is mine. I had 6 macs in this 180g. They were ok with each other for a while but then a few started picking each other off. So I traded them in to ash toward my big rhom. Someone on here bought them from him and they bred for him. I ended up with some of the babies but had no luck with them. I also had 8 baby elongs that didn't work. I stick to solo serras from now on.
[/quote]

Yeah didnt realize it was the old shoal in the 180 before the Rhom so it was a standard 180 6x2x2 and John was still having problems. The next shoal he tried out in the 135 and was still having problems.


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## Briaan

Inflade said:


> Ok, all this information and shared experience is great. But I think for a moment we need to focus on Briann and the point of this thread. Is a 50 gallon tank suitable and a proper environment to house 4 sub adult macs? I'm going to hold off giving my opinion until I can get at a computer vs on my phone.
> 
> Let's hear it.


4 macs that get along, daily feedings, soon a powerhead, fluval 304 + bio wheel rated for 50 gal, bi weekly 30% water changes, the tank won't work if they reach 5.5"+ they grow slowly but for swimming a powerhead should help keep then happy and active. There's going to be black sand as a sub, I know it isn't ideal for breeding but I like the look of sand more than gravel, using black fluorite sand, with draws hair grass and japonica grass, maybe some jungle. Vine in the background, one side of my tank is dimmed using aluminum foil. And the tank is blacked out using black Bristol board. That's all I canthink of atm


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## Inflade

Briaan said:


> Ok, all this information and shared experience is great. But I think for a moment we need to focus on Briann and the point of this thread. Is a 50 gallon tank suitable and a proper environment to house 4 sub adult macs? I'm going to hold off giving my opinion until I can get at a computer vs on my phone.
> 
> Let's hear it.


4 macs that get along, daily feedings, soon a powerhead, fluval 304 + bio wheel rated for 50 gal, bi weekly 30% water changes, the tank won't work if they reach 5.5"+ they grow slowly but for swimming a powerhead should help keep then happy and active. There's going to be black sand as a sub, I know it isn't ideal for breeding but I like the look of sand more than gravel, using black fluorite sand, with draws hair grass and japonica grass, maybe some jungle. Vine in the background, one side of my tank is dimmed using aluminum foil. And the tank is blacked out using black Bristol board. That's all I canthink of atm
[/quote]

Briann, fish like these don't "get along" they tolerate each other. You haven't had the fish for more then a week. Give it a few weeks and you will see if they "get along" in that tiny tank.


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## Briaan

Well we shouldn't have traded if my tank was too small, you were there, why didn't you say anything then? Would have made my life easier, cash would have worked, and you knew I had a small tank, 60 gal I thoguht but 10 gallons doesn't make that much of a difference. 1 inch each way? Least the width isn't 12", and if they do fight, then they do, I'll separate them if it's really bad.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

The tank has the same footprint as a 55 gallon, so I don't really think you have to worry about them being cramped, they may fight, but they may do it in a bigger tank as well. 3 5" fish in a huge tank sounds like it could create just as many problems. Ideally, if your goal is to breed them, I'd probably look into getting a bigger tank and adding a few more, but for your current set up, you'll just have to see if it works.


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## Sylar_92

Do you still have the long reptile tank operating? If you do i can help you turn it in to a a permanant tank, I also believe the reptile tank is big enough after all its about the same size as your 50 but not as tall. I'll send you a small materials list which would probally cost around $20 not including the price for the plexie glass your going to need to cover the turtle filter cut out. I'll talk you through it step by step, after all I did build a 90 gal wood canopy which was almost professionally made and sealed a couple of small tanks before. If your willing to agree to my offer I'll be more than happy to drop by and help when Iam free of doing things to my tanks. Take care man.


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## banshee42096

well in my experiance when macs dont get along you come home to one chewed in half or more you most likely wont be given a chance to seperate them.i thought 3 adult reds breeding in a 50 was at its limit but thats me. i think the tank is to small but that is my opinion.


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## Grosse Gurke

Larger tank size....daily feeding....none of this will make any difference if these fish decide they do not want to share space. I love how people continue to preach about these two things as ways to reduce aggression when they really have little to do with keepting Serrasalmus together....and if anything...it can have the opposite effect. Just my opinion though.


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## Briaan

Hey sy, my turtle tank would be alot more useful if it wasn't a turtle "tank, it's basically a breeder tank with half a panel missing on a side, it would be nice if you could help me turn it into a breeder tank, but would plexiglass hold? And silliconing the middle would-be the most difficult part.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

Briaan said:


> Hey sy, my turtle tank would be alot more useful if it wasn't a turtle "tank, it's basically a breeder tank with half a panel missing on a side, it would be nice if you could help me turn it into a breeder tank, but would plexiglass hold? And silliconing the middle would-be the most difficult part.


I think you would be much better off just buying a different tank -- I had one of those turtle tanks and I would never trust it modified and filled to the top.


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## Sylar_92

Briaan said:


> Hey sy, my turtle tank would be alot more useful if it wasn't a turtle "tank, it's basically a breeder tank with half a panel missing on a side, it would be nice if you could help me turn it into a breeder tank, but would plexiglass hold? And silliconing the middle would-be the most difficult part.


Yeah plexi should be fine just match the the thickness of the glass planes. As for the silicon repair, its not that hard. you have to follow the remaining silicon seam to the middle and go across, I know a few vids on youtube to show you what I mean. The vid is mostly a tank reseal but you basically use the same method to seal the middel. Smoothing out the middle seem may be the hard part.once it drys do a leak test.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

Sylar_92 said:


> Hey sy, my turtle tank would be alot more useful if it wasn't a turtle "tank, it's basically a breeder tank with half a panel missing on a side, it would be nice if you could help me turn it into a breeder tank, but would plexiglass hold? And silliconing the middle would-be the most difficult part.


Yeah plexi should be fine just match the the thickness of the glass planes. As for the silicon repair, its not that hard. you have to follow the remaining silicon seam to the middle and go across, I know a few vids on youtube to show you what I mean. The vid is mostly a tank reseal but you basically use the same method to seal the middel. Smoothing out the middle seem may be the hard part.once it drys do a leak test.
[/quote]

You do realize that silicone doesn't really adhere to acrylic, right? If he followed those instructions, he'd end up with water on his floor.


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## Briaan

Turtle tank project is a no go


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## Briaan

This thread really took off, anyways there's a lot mixed opinions, tank sizes is relevant but it's not always better, if the macs wanna shaol they will, if they don't they'll kill eachother off, but bottom line is, if it does work, than great I'll post pics n videos, if it doesn't then I'll separate if I could, but ATM they are still shy n I don't know how they will react when I change the tank, only time will tell.


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## BRUNER247

JoeDizzleMPLS said:


> The tank has the same footprint as a 55 gallon, so I don't really think you have to worry about them being cramped, they may fight, but they may do it in a bigger tank as well. 3 5" fish in a huge tank sounds like it could create just as many problems. Ideally, if your goal is to breed them, I'd probably look into getting a bigger tank and adding a few more, but for your current set up, you'll just have to see if it works.


Its not same ft print as 55gal. He stated its 40cm wide which is 16" not 12". I'm with GG. Some have no business giving opinions if they've never even had a Mac group. Its Like someone giving breeding advice that's never even spawned a fish.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

BRUNER247 said:


> The tank has the same footprint as a 55 gallon, so I don't really think you have to worry about them being cramped, they may fight, but they may do it in a bigger tank as well. 3 5" fish in a huge tank sounds like it could create just as many problems. Ideally, if your goal is to breed them, I'd probably look into getting a bigger tank and adding a few more, but for your current set up, you'll just have to see if it works.


Its not same ft print as 55gal. He stated its 40cm wide which is 16" not 12". I'm with GG. Some have no business giving opinions if they've never even had a Mac group. Its Like someone giving breeding advice that's never even spawned a fish.
[/quote]

Isn't it 36"x16"? That's 576 square inches, not the exact same shape, but same amount of space as a 55


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## Briaan

BRUNER247 said:


> The tank has the same footprint as a 55 gallon, so I don't really think you have to worry about them being cramped, they may fight, but they may do it in a bigger tank as well. 3 5" fish in a huge tank sounds like it could create just as many problems. Ideally, if your goal is to breed them, I'd probably look into getting a bigger tank and adding a few more, but for your current set up, you'll just have to see if it works.


Its not same ft print as 55gal. He stated its 40cm wide which is 16" not 12". I'm with GG. Some have no business giving opinions if they've never even had a Mac group. Its Like someone giving breeding advice that's never even spawned a fish.
[/quote]
x2


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## BRUNER247

It might work out the same but imo its not the same ft print. Same ft print would be 4'x12". A 3'x16" tank is way better imo. Every Mac group will act different regardless of tank size, diet, how often fed, decor or no decor. Tons of factors & each one can change everything for the good or bad. Same with ANY piranha group, serras or pygos. They can & will eat each other if & when they want to. To flat out say this tank isn't big enough is wrong. Will they need a bigger tank as they grow? I'm sure of it. But right now 3-5 5" fish are fine in that tank. Watch for aggression, prepare for the worst, & hope for the best. They have just as good a chance co-habing the 3'x16" as in a 6'x2' tank. If anything imo a bigger tank now would give them the space to establish territories which in turn would surely lead to casualties. Smaller tank forces them to group tight creating one territory for them all. But what do I know? I know I have 2 seperate groups of 5 in tanks a tad smaller than yours without any problems(fin nips, bites, ect) for a couple months now. Will you have the same results? Who knows? Maybe, maybe not. Am I just lucky with these macs? Idk but if it is luck I must be double lucky because the macs in BOTH tank are FLAWLESS. Kinda funny at least one rbp in my 6' tank rbp will always have a bite out of their tail fins at any given moment.


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## Briaan

Thanks man, you've given Me hope


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## Inflade

I still can't get over you having that beautiful BDR in a 50 gallon tank.


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

Inflade said:


> I still can't get over you having that beautiful BDR in a 50 gallon tank.


I have my BDR in a 50b 30x18 whats the problem with that and he will be in there till he hit around 10" unless I want to move my Marginatus into it then he will go to a bigger tank.

My thing is why do you want to breed them. Do you have the space or time to care for fry that need to be feed up to 4 times a day or more. It sounds like fun to breed fish until it happens and then its a ton of work. I have never breed any of my Ps but I have breed Green Terror's,Jags,Blue Acara, even crossed a Blue crayfish and a common. It was more than a pain in the ass to try and raise them let alone some canabalistic Macs.


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## Inflade

THE BLACK PIRANHA said:


> I still can't get over you having that beautiful BDR in a 50 gallon tank.


I have my BDR in a 50b 30x18 whats the problem with that and he will be in there till he hit around 10" unless I want to move my Marginatus into it then he will go to a bigger tank.

My thing is why do you want to breed them. Do you have the space or time to care for fry that need to be feed up to 4 times a day or more. It sounds like fun to breed fish until it happens and then its a ton of work. I have never breed any of my Ps but I have breed Green Terror's,Jags,Blue Acara, even crossed a Blue crayfish and a common. It was more than a pain in the ass to try and raise them let alone some canabalistic Macs.
[/quote]

He was 10 inches..


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## BRUNER247

10"fish in a 16"wide tank? Is a 10" fish solo in a 50gal tank any worse than 6-7 8"-10" fish in a 135gal?? This thread isn't about a 10" rhom anyhow. It says MAC in the title. & what do any of you care if he wants to breed macs? Its his decision not yours. Are you the one feeding them? No. are you the one putting the time & effort into breeding these macs? NO. If you don't have good advice WHY are you still ruining this thread? Why are mods allowing this to continue after repeated warnings to stay on topic?


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## duster1971

I have no experiance on breeding macs or any piranhas but do have some advice aside from making sure they are comfortable and well fed. Keep your chin up and try to breed them as this is how its done. No one person on here controls the fate or succes of your fish except you. I wish you the best of luck in your endevers of breeding.


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## Inflade

With the proper attitude, care and time anything is possible. Only time will ltell. I think you got more then enought information now. Good luck on your project.


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## r1dermon

Grosse Gurke said:


> GG i'll respectfully disagree...a 180 might sound big, but comparative to their natural habitat, it's barely a molecule of water...to support the theory that a larger tank greatly increases the odds of cohabitation...the only captive successful breeding that im aware of, involving Rhom's took place in a 1200g densely planted tank. these fish need their space, and space is something that home aquariums lack.


When you have kept these fish.....let me know your experience...until then....I dont know that you should talk about how they behave in a tank. It is all about making them feel comfortable...and more often then not....the less space they need to defend...the more comfortable the seem to be. Your theory sounds right...but when it comes to fish in a tank....not so much.
[/quote]

why not take azuma's experience as evidence? a 220g aquarium facilitated spawning, and also resulted in damaged fish. whats your basis for suggesting that a smaller tank is actually more suitable than a large one?


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## Briaan

Inflade said:


> I still can't get over you having that beautiful BDR in a 50 gallon tank.


well you got him now, so good luck n take care of that beast, even if he was in a 50 gallon, before i chnaged up the tank he was really aggressive, didn't finger chase but body chased, followed me when i walked by. and yeah i got enough information, and then some.

thanks for replying and sharing your opinion everyone.


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## Grosse Gurke

r1dermon said:


> why not take azuma's experience as evidence? a 220g aquarium facilitated spawning, and also resulted in damaged fish. whats your basis for suggesting that a smaller tank is actually more suitable than a large one?


That is fine...you take Azuma's experience as evidence and give advice based on that. I will reflect back on all the tanks I have had and give advice based on that. I am not saying I am right...I am just expressing how my fish have behaved in different size tanks.


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## r1dermon

Grosse Gurke said:


> why not take azuma's experience as evidence? a 220g aquarium facilitated spawning, and also resulted in damaged fish. whats your basis for suggesting that a smaller tank is actually more suitable than a large one?


That is fine...you take Azuma's experience as evidence and give advice based on that. I will reflect back on all the tanks I have had and give advice based on that. I am not saying I am right...*I am just expressing how my fish have behaved in different size tanks.*
[/quote]

that's fine, but you're implying that your experience is the only experience out there...based on all the evidence i've seen, which is extremely well documented evidence, i've come to the conclusion that a larger tank will facilitate a cohabitation of serrasalmus, and eventual breeding, with greater success than a smaller tank would. again, based on all the evidence i've seen. do you have any old threads of yours of successful cohabs of serrasalmus in smaller tanks, maybe going by the 1" per gallon rule?


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## Grosse Gurke

r1dermon said:


> why not take azuma's experience as evidence? a 220g aquarium facilitated spawning, and also resulted in damaged fish. whats your basis for suggesting that a smaller tank is actually more suitable than a large one?


That is fine...you take Azuma's experience as evidence and give advice based on that. I will reflect back on all the tanks I have had and give advice based on that. I am not saying I am right...*I am just expressing how my fish have behaved in different size tanks.*
[/quote]

that's fine, but you're implying that your experience is the only experience out there...based on all the evidence i've seen, which is extremely well documented evidence, i've come to the conclusion that a larger tank will facilitate a cohabitation of serrasalmus, and eventual breeding, with greater success than a smaller tank would. again, based on all the evidence i've seen. do you have any old threads of yours of successful cohabs of serrasalmus in smaller tanks, maybe going by the 1" per gallon rule?
[/quote]

I have never implyed that my experience is the only experience out there. I dont think I have any old threads about this topic. It is the same thing when people always say 2 fish in a tank wont work. That is such bs. I had two irritans in a tank for 2 years. I had two elongatus in a tank for 6 months. I have two maculatus in a tank going on what....2 years. But over and over I read how it cant work. For me...I would rather give advice based on what I have seen in my tanks.


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## r1dermon

Grosse Gurke said:


> why not take azuma's experience as evidence? a 220g aquarium facilitated spawning, and also resulted in damaged fish. whats your basis for suggesting that a smaller tank is actually more suitable than a large one?


That is fine...you take Azuma's experience as evidence and give advice based on that. I will reflect back on all the tanks I have had and give advice based on that. I am not saying I am right...*I am just expressing how my fish have behaved in different size tanks.*
[/quote]

that's fine, but you're implying that your experience is the only experience out there...based on all the evidence i've seen, which is extremely well documented evidence, i've come to the conclusion that a larger tank will facilitate a cohabitation of serrasalmus, and eventual breeding, with greater success than a smaller tank would. again, based on all the evidence i've seen. do you have any old threads of yours of successful cohabs of serrasalmus in smaller tanks, maybe going by the 1" per gallon rule?
[/quote]

*I have never implyed that my experience is the only experience out there.* I dont think I have any old threads about this topic. It is the same thing when people always say 2 fish in a tank wont work. That is such bs. I had two irritans in a tank for 2 years. I had two elongatus in a tank for 6 months. I have two maculatus in a tank going on what....2 years. But over and over I read how it cant work. For me...I would rather give advice based on what I have seen in my tanks.
[/quote]

i guess it's a misunderstanding...

what i can't figure out though, is where are your threads!!! dont take this as an indictment, but damn dude, 2 irritans...c'mon, give us some piranha porn.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

I started with a group and ended up with these 2 in a 30 long for almost 2 years, not as much as a fin nip...









Moved them to a different tank and all hell broke loose...


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## Grosse Gurke

r1dermon said:


> what i can't figure out though, is where are your threads!!! dont take this as an indictment, but damn dude, 2 irritans...c'mon, give us some piranha porn.


Here was a thread about them....cant believe it was that long ago.. Irritans


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