# Piranha scavenger or predator?



## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

Curious to see what every one thinks is the true nature of the rbp.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2006)

In my experience through reading about and owning one, they are 100% scavengers.

*unless starving.


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## Joga Bonito (Oct 30, 2004)

scavengers


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

opportunistic feeder.


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

In the wild? Because in my tank he is a predator! In the wild, scavenger.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

Good answer frank!!


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## moeplz (Feb 21, 2005)

redrum781 said:


> In the wild? Because in my tank he is a predator! In the wild, scavenger.


They may seem like that because they may be hungry...but in the wild their primary food source is the dead, the old or the sickly.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

IMO it kind of depends on the genus you are talking about...serrasalmus or pygocentrus. My understanding is that pygos are mainly scavengers in the wild, or as Frank said..opportunistic feeders. Serrasalmus on the other hand are more parasitic. Even in the home aquarium, I dont remember ever getting a bite in my serrasalmus tanks that is anything but fins...where in my pygo tanks there has been bites to the body. I am not saying this was feeding related...but maybe more habitual.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

I just want to quote myself from the other thread that brought this one up



Ex0dus said:


> For all those who believe pirnahas are perdators (my favotire was "top predator of the worst kind") please go read up some information about them.
> RARELY will pirnahas attack a healthy animal (read when they are starving). At best piranhas are either scavengers/opertunisitc feeders and others can be classified as parasitic feeders.
> Piranhas mainly feed on the dead or dying. Simply because your fish will chase down and eat other fish in a aquarium (not nature) doesnt change the fact what they really are. So again, before you all start throwing out insults, i challenge you to inform yourselves on the issue better.


Hmmmm

Scavenger/oppetunisitc feeder being pygos as frank and jeff say
parasitic feeders being serras as jeff stated.


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

I agree they are "opportunistic feeders"... they will eat fins or whole fish, will chase and kill or simply feed from the dead always depending on the circumstance...:nod: !


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

hastatus said:


> opportunistic feeder.


i was gonna post scavengers but that sound much better


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## jeddy hao (Mar 1, 2005)

I can't vote!! it's both. Sometimes they will circle fish and attack in groups. That's predator like. They will eat anything tfrom scavenging as well.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

Ok,I have been thinking about franks "opportunistic feeder" answer.I think one could consider a domestic cat an opportunistic feeder as well.
could we put cats and rbp's in this same class?I think even we humans should be in this class . If something looks tasty and siting right there in front of me I will eat it even if Im not really hungry.I think the "opportunistic feeder" even covers a more broad range the carnivor, omnivore,or herbivore.as I think there is an opportunistic feeder in each of these classes,as with predator and scavenger.
edit:
frank please clarify you called them a predator here.[opefe
here is quote from the page.
HOBBYIST ATTITUDES TOWARD THEIR PIRANHAS

I have kept other fishes mixed with piranha for several months. However, sooner or later something causes the piranha to react negatively. And it doesn't matter how large your fish might be. I have seen small ones nip at large ones like little sly wolves. The idea that one species is badder than another is also an incorrect assumption and shows how little the person understands piranha behavior. Yet, I repeatedly see comments where one hobbyist has tried these experiments with relatives of the piranhas, such as; tetras, silver dollars and expensive characins like Exodon paradoxus and non-relatives like; cichlids, catfishes, etc. These attempts to put a non-piranha fish into a small home aquarium to co-exist peacefully with the predator is pure nonsense. Some published piranha books have foolishly suggested tank mates for piranhas! In the end, the tank mate will be food for a hungry piranha. And piranhas are always hungry!


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

hastatus said:


> opportunistic feeder.


To me this means the same thing as a predator.


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

my response from a different thread.



> pred·a·tor (prĕd'ə-tər, -tôr') pronunciation
> n.
> 
> 1. An organism that lives by preying on other organisms.
> ...


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

Grosse Gurke said:


> IMO it kind of depends on the genus you are talking about...serrasalmus or pygocentrus. My understanding is that pygos are mainly scavengers in the wild, or as Frank said..opportunistic feeders. Serrasalmus on the other hand are more parasitic. Even in the home aquarium, I dont remember ever getting a bite in my serrasalmus tanks that is anything but fins...where in my pygo tanks there has been bites to the body. I am not saying this was feeding related...but maybe more habitual.


A wise and correct answer.









Regards,


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## Hater (Apr 21, 2006)

I have to disagree with most people on this thread. I beleive piranhas are "predators" and like all predator, will scavenge when the oportunity presents itself. Pirahnas, like all predators, will attack the weak, the dead and the dying so to consider them scavengers is silly. Then we would have to call most predatory animals scavengers too. ie wolf, hyenas, lions etc.

Hater


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

in the home aquarium i belive they could be any.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

fry said:


> I have to disagree with most people on this thread. I beleive piranhas are "predators" and like all predator, will scavenge when the oportunity presents itself. Pirahnas, like all predators, will attack the weak, the dead and the dying so to consider them scavengers is silly. Then we would have to call most predatory animals scavengers too. ie wolf, hyenas, lions etc.
> 
> Hater


The reason I dont feel piranhas are a true predator is IMO a predator will stalk its prey. They will hunt for prey. Now if you consider the sick and dying prey...and consuming them hunting...then I guess you could call the piranha a predator. However....if the piranha was a true predator then almost nothing would be alive in the amazon rivers. In a large group...there is nothing that these fish couldnt kill and consume. Why would cariba wait under a tree for a baby chick to fall out so they can eat..instead of just attacking one of the thousands of fish living in the same waters as them? Because they are "opportunistic". What that means to me is they do not "hunt" for food...they wait for it. These fish could easily take down any man or animal that was swimming in their waters but they dont...they wait for the injured animal and dying animal. Now if these fish are starving..then I would guess they would attack healthy animals to eat...but I dont consider that being a predatory...I think that is just trying to survive.

The domesticated cat is a true predator imo. My cat has a bowl of dry food at all times...but he will still hunt birds and mice, sometimes he will kill them and eat them...other times he will just torment them to death..and then chew on them. That is because he is a true predator. He has food available but would rather hunt for food. The hunting and killing isnt only for survival...it is in his nature....it is what he was born to do. I dont put a fish that is only eating to survive in the same class as something that even when it has food...it will still hunt for his prey.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

Grosse Gurke said:


> I have to disagree with most people on this thread. I beleive piranhas are "predators" and like all predator, will scavenge when the oportunity presents itself. Pirahnas, like all predators, will attack the weak, the dead and the dying so to consider them scavengers is silly. Then we would have to call most predatory animals scavengers too. ie wolf, hyenas, lions etc.
> 
> Hater


The domesticated cat is a true predator imo. My cat has a bowl of dry food at all times...but he will still hunt birds and mice, sometimes he will kill them and eat them...other times he will just torment them to death..and then chew on them. That is because he is a true predator. He has food available but would rather hunt for food. The hunting and killing isnt only for survival...it is in his nature....it is what he was born to do. I dont put a fish that is only eating to survive in the same class as something that even when it has food...it will still hunt for his prey.
[/quote]
If you saw the nigel marvin video they did corner a fish and showed a type of teamwork similar to wolves.as for them not eating each other canibalism is rare among true predators especially among the pack.as for not eating everything that enters the water....Piranha's are a fairly simple spicies as fish are in general.they have been hardwired with only a few natural instincts.so they only see few things as food.as any fisherman knows you got to match the hatch.


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## taylorten (Oct 19, 2005)

> I have to disagree with most people on this thread. I beleive piranhas are "predators" and like all predator, will scavenge when the oportunity presents itself. Pirahnas, like all predators, will attack the weak, the dead and the dying so to consider them scavengers is silly. Then we would have to call most predatory animals scavengers too. ie wolf, hyenas, lions etc.
> 
> Hater


For one, hyenas are scavengers. And if piranhas were like wolves, like fry said, they would actually hunt instead of waiting. I'd say hyena would be the best mammalian equivolent to piranhas, attacking the sick and weak. The only P I've seen that I would actually call predatory was my old elongatus. I say that because compared to all my other Ps who just chase feeders down, my elong actually had a game plan, stalking the feeder then striking in a split second.


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## furious piranha (Mar 22, 2005)

Grosse Gurke said:


> I have to disagree with most people on this thread. I beleive piranhas are "predators" and like all predator, will scavenge when the oportunity presents itself. Pirahnas, like all predators, will attack the weak, the dead and the dying so to consider them scavengers is silly. Then we would have to call most predatory animals scavengers too. ie wolf, hyenas, lions etc.
> 
> Hater


The reason I dont feel piranhas are a true predator is IMO a predator will stalk its prey. They will hunt for prey. Now if you consider the sick and dying prey...and consuming them hunting...then I guess you could call the piranha a predator. However....if the piranha was a true predator then almost nothing would be alive in the amazon rivers. In a large group...there is nothing that these fish couldnt kill and consume. Why would cariba wait under a tree for a baby chick to fall out so they can eat..instead of just attacking one of the thousands of fish living in the same waters as them? Because they are "opportunistic". What that means to me is they do not "hunt" for food...they wait for it. These fish could easily take down any man or animal that was swimming in their waters but they dont...they wait for the injured animal and dying animal. Now if these fish are starving..then I would guess they would attack healthy animals to eat...but I dont consider that being a predatory...I think that is just trying to survive.

The domesticated cat is a true predator imo. My cat has a bowl of dry food at all times...but he will still hunt birds and mice, sometimes he will kill them and eat them...other times he will just torment them to death..and then chew on them. That is because he is a true predator. He has food available but would rather hunt for food. The hunting and killing isnt only for survival...it is in his nature....it is what he was born to do. I dont put a fish that is only eating to survive in the same class as something that even when it has food...it will still hunt for his prey.
[/quote]
couldnt say it better, great explanation


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## Hater (Apr 21, 2006)

Grosse you made some valid points and I will not get into a debate with you cause after all, it is your forum. But I will have to rebute some of the things said in your thread:

"The reason I dont feel piranhas are a true predator is IMO a predator will stalk its prey."

Grosee you are comparing a fish to a mamal. Big cats and other predator have to stalk their preys because they need to get close enough to have a sucesfull hunts. I don't beleive that would work in the water. Imagine a shoal of hundreds of pirahnas trying to stalk some fishes. Although I'm not a scientist and I'm not claiming to be one, I do beleive that Piranhas hunt, just ina different way.

"However....if the piranha was a true predator then almost nothing would be alive in the amazon rivers. In a large group...there is nothing that these fish couldnt kill and consume."

Grosse I beleive the answer to this is simple. There is simply more prey then there is pirahnas. Is like saying, why don't lions or wolf eat all the other animals, cause besides elephants, rhinos, hippos, lions can pretty much kill anything there is alive in africa. It is all a matter of ratio from prey to predator. For every lion, there are thousands of wildebest(spelling),zebras, etc. For every 1 pirahnas there are problably 1000s of prey fishes. It is natures way of keeping a good natural balance. I hope you get my point there as I'm not too good with writting.

"Why would cariba wait under a tree for a baby chick to fall out so they can eat..instead of just attacking one of the thousands of fish living in the same waters as them? Because they are "opportunistic". What that means to me is they do not "hunt" for food...they wait for it."

Another great point Grosse. But again I beleive the answer is simple. I have seen documentaries and read articles about this particular pirahna behavior. What you have to understand is that this pirahnas don't just eat the chicks that fall into the water, they also eat the fishes and anything else that is available. I find it hard to beleive that this thousands sometimes 100 of thousands of pirahnas are just feeding on the chicks that fall from the tree. This is simply imposible as there wouldn't be enough chicks falling from the trees to subtained half of the pirahnas population. So the notion that the piranhas are just sitting there waiting for a chick to fall and not actively hunting or eating other prey is just not true.

Contuniation on the next thread.


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## Hater (Apr 21, 2006)

"What that means to me is they do not "hunt" for food...they wait for it. These fish could easily take down any man or animal that was swimming in their waters but they dont...they wait for the injured animal and dying animal. Now if these fish are starving..then I would guess they would attack healthy animals to eat...but I dont consider that being a predatory...I think that is just trying to survive."

Grosse you are again comparing a fish to a mamal. The fishes are just programed by nature to act this way cause if you really think about it, if piranhas were smart enough, they can consume their own predators, I mean no animal in the world can survive an attack from a pirahna shoal but their predators do. It is true that they will feed on dying or dead animals but to thinks that a fish with so many tools at its disposal(as much as sharks)to hunt just uses them to scavenge is just hard for me to beleive.

"The domesticated cat is a true predator imo. My cat has a bowl of dry food at all times...but he will still hunt birds and mice, sometimes he will kill them and eat them...other times he will just torment them to death..and then chew on them. That is because he is a true predator. He has food available but would rather hunt for food. The hunting and killing isnt only for survival...it is in his nature....it is what he was born to do. I dont put a fish that is only eating to survive in the same class as something that even when it has food...it will still hunt for his prey."

Once again, you are comparing a mamal to a fish but I ill use this example to demonstarte how the same behavior can be seen in piranhas. Now we all have pirahnas here and we all or most of us have a mixed diet for them. But if you put feeders in the fishtank and feed them pellets , you pirahnas will eat the pellets and will also hunt the feeders down. Why would a fish that is already full of pellets hunt down a live prey? and I know this is happening in a confined space but is it really hard to beleive that it couldn't happen in the wild rivers of the amazon?

In conclusion. I just can buy that piranhas are just scavenging and that don't actively hunt. this fishes have the tools they need to be the top "predators" of their enviroment and I beleive they are so. Grosse you made some valid points and I beleive me and you just have a different definition of predators.

"For one, hyenas are scavengers"

Rollingstone hyenas are scavengers just like all predatos. However you also need to know that hyenas are on of africas top predators and will hunt more then what they scavenge.

"If you saw the nigel marvin video they did corner a fish and showed a type of teamwork similar to wolves.as for them not eating each other canibalism is rare among true predators especially among the pack.as for not eating everything that enters the water....Piranha's are a fairly simple spicies as fish are in general.they have been hardwired with only a few natural instincts.so they only see few things as food.as any fisherman knows you got to match the hatch."

Could not have said it any better Fry.

Hater


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## Hemi (Nov 13, 2005)

ive said this some were else b4
but if a SHARK runs into a dead whale 
or for that matter 
smells the blood of the wounded hurt dien whale 
doesnt he "hunt" go after the whale and eat it 
i dont think a shark who runs into a school of fish and comes out with a mouth full is a total predator 
at least not from reading these posts
so i guess sharks are scavengers also
just cuz there isnt a PLAN to Eat dont mean food isnt hunted
imagine a 2-3 inch red smelling food 
and going from the spot he is at to the food 
thats the same as the shark

opportunistic feeding 
you still cant count out the animal isnt a predator
if i was stranded on an island 
and came across a fish flopping around in the shallows and eat it 
does that make me a scavanger 
even though for the last 3 days i trapped a wild pig 
killed a snake under a rock 
speared a few fish 
i hunted but i took oportunity

if anything there LAZY
and will take the easy meal over the tuff one
but in nigels video they showed a healthy WOLF fish 
preparing to not get killed
he didnt look sick or dien
yet he defended himself 
why would he need to defend himself if there only oportunistic feeders
how bout when all them other animals were eating the Ps in the dried up waters 
they must not be predators either

i dont think there is an ABSOLUTE predator out there
even humans have there faults
vegetarians aint predators 
but a hunter is 
so lets get this in a parrallel direction
can anyone prove theres an ABSOLUTE predator out there 
that will pass up a free meal for the KILL

BTW randomly darting after a goldfish 
is the same as a lion waiting then darting after a pack of wildabeasts
you put 10 Ps in a 10000 gallon tank 
and they might learn to "HUNT"
but in the average home tank there aint enuff room

anyone ever catch a shark fishing with dead/frozen bait 
i have a bunch of times

still i would love to know what being out there is a total predator
mabye a VENUS FLY TRAP thats the only thing i can think of


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

Hemi said:


> ive said this some were else b4
> but if a SHARK runs into a dead whale
> or for that matter
> smells the blood of the wounded hurt dien whale
> ...


good read hater & hemi, but the venus flytrap is also oprtunistic cause if a fly dont land on the trap he wont eat.oh and btw the flytrap does get nutrients from the soil as well.I think opotunistic label can be aplied to almost any living creature.and should be removed from any classification of animal behavior.


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## Hater (Apr 21, 2006)

Wao, good read Hemi.

I beleive the only animal that is a true scavenger is the Vulture. The only animal in the world that only eats dead animals and even that can be debated.

Hater


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Wow....unfortunatly it is too nice a day to attempt to answer all the posts. I do however believe I can answer most of them...but certainly not all. When I get a chance I will see if I get to it. Again...I am not saying I know all the answers...this is just my opinion on why I would not consider these fish predators.


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## joey'd (Oct 26, 2005)

hastatus said:


> opportunistic feeder.










i oculdnt have put it better myself


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## Froogle (Mar 15, 2006)

they are both watch wolves in the water


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## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

hastatus said:


> opportunistic feeder.


Which is a face of scavenging. I would say hands down scavengers cause I've bread red's in the past and seeing doc's on them they are always in shoals. Seems by design that they should be and would have to be scavengers. If they were active predators and at the rate they can lay eggs I would wonder if there would be anything other than reds left to swim? Maybe I'm crazy I dunno....


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2006)

People say "Predator" because they want thier fish to be more badass...but to me, a predator is something like a shark, something which actively hunts, or a wolf which hunts for it food and only scavenges when it needs to. Opportunistic feeders sounds about right.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

Opportunistic feeder imo applies more towards the piranha in captivity.


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## Hater (Apr 21, 2006)

DannyBoy17 said:


> People say "Predator" because they want thier fish to be more badass...but to me, a predator is something like a shark, something which actively hunts, or a wolf which hunts for it food and only scavenges when it needs to. Opportunistic feeders sounds about right.


Lol. People want their fish to be bad ass? come on man , that is just silly. Piranhas just like sharks are predators. They have different ways of hunting and different prey but they are predators.

Oportunistic feeders? can someone explain to me exactly what this means to me? is it that pirahnas only eats when their is an oportunity(ie dead fish only) and are we supose to buy this theory?

Like it was said before. Pirahnas are no more scavengers then sharks or any other "predatos" in nature. If the opportunity presents itself they will scavenge but they do hunt and prey on other fishes.

Any animal that attacks another living animal whether that animal is sick, dying or healthy, is no longer a scavenger. It is a "PREDATOR".


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2006)

Hater said:


> People say "Predator" because they want thier fish to be more badass...but to me, a predator is something like a shark, something which actively hunts, or a wolf which hunts for it food and only scavenges when it needs to. Opportunistic feeders sounds about right.


Lol. People want their fish to be bad ass? come on man , that is just silly. Piranhas just like sharks are predators. They have different ways of hunting and different prey but they are predators.

Oportunistic feeders? can someone explain to me exactly what this means to me? is it that pirahnas only eats when their is an oportunity(ie dead fish only) and are we supose to buy this theory?

Like it was said before. Pirahnas are no more scavengers then sharks or any other "predatos" in nature. If the opportunity presents itself they will scavenge but they do hunt and prey on other fishes.

Any animal that attacks another living animal whether that animal is sick, dying or healthy, is no longer a scavenger. It is a "PREDATOR".
[/quote]

No, it is a scavenger







A predator will kill and eat anything...do you think a shark cares which kind of seal it cathes? The only time Ive seen a Piranha kill a healthy fish, it was because of territorial disputes, or because it was starved. All predators first try for the young, the sick and the dying...but a piranha seems to only attack if these conditions are met, whereas a lion for example will take down whatever it can catch.

Theres a reason they are called the Janitors of the Amazon..

You want prove that people want their P's to be more badass?

-Cut lips
-Names (KILLAZ, TERROR REDS, RIPPER)
-Pointless live feedings

The list goes on.

This is a pointless arguement tho, but my useless post hopefully cancels out your useless post!


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## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> People say "Predator" because they want thier fish to be more badass...but to me, a predator is something like a shark, something which actively hunts, or a wolf which hunts for it food and only scavenges when it needs to. Opportunistic feeders sounds about right.


Lol. People want their fish to be bad ass? come on man , that is just silly. Piranhas just like sharks are predators. They have different ways of hunting and different prey but they are predators.

Oportunistic feeders? can someone explain to me exactly what this means to me? is it that pirahnas only eats when their is an oportunity(ie dead fish only) and are we supose to buy this theory?

Like it was said before. Pirahnas are no more scavengers then sharks or any other "predatos" in nature. If the opportunity presents itself they will scavenge but they do hunt and prey on other fishes.

Any animal that attacks another living animal whether that animal is sick, dying or healthy, is no longer a scavenger. It is a "PREDATOR".
[/quote]

No, it is a scavenger







A predator will kill and eat anything...do you think a shark cares which kind of seal it cathes? The only time Ive seen a Piranha kill a healthy fish, it was because of territorial disputes, or because it was starved. All predators first try for the young, the sick and the dying...but a piranha seems to only attack if these conditions are met, whereas a lion for example will take down whatever it can catch.

Theres a reason they are called the Janitors of the Amazon..

You want prove that people want their P's to be more badass?

-Cut lips
-Names (KILLAZ, TERROR REDS, RIPPER)
-Pointless live feedings

The list goes on.

This is a pointless arguement tho, but my useless post hopefully cancels out your useless post!
[/quote]

HAHAHHAA hopefully he brought books cause someone just got schooled


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> People say "Predator" because they want thier fish to be more badass...but to me, a predator is something like a shark, something which actively hunts, or a wolf which hunts for it food and only scavenges when it needs to. Opportunistic feeders sounds about right.


danny a wolf is a predator it hunts in packs they go after the weak and injured if they find a carcass they will scavenge it.the wolf pack has an alpha male and alpha female.the wolf pack has a territory that theyhunt and live in.wolves can be aggressive to others within the packto display their dominance and pecking order.the only differences i can see between the 2 is that 
1.one lives in water.
2.piranhas are fish eaters and big warm blooded mamals are not their choice of food.
3. -1 alpha.
wolf in the water continually classifies the red belly as a predator.and I quote.the old,injured or sick is at the top of the list.they select their prey<-regarding the angelfish in the video.
This is not about having more "bad ass" fish, well not to me any way.This is like calling a horse a dog and cat a mouse.There is no inbetween here and there shouldn't be this opposition differnce between the predator and scavenger.I know I have 1 scavenger in my tank and its a spotted raphael.I also have a pleco.My rbp's have had many "oportunities" to eat them any time they want.why dont they?well this is just theory....
1.they are not hungry enough.(rules out oportunistic feeder.)(could still be a predator)
2.they are not veiwed as lunch.(rules out oportunistic feeder.)(could still be a predator)
3.the rbp's are waiting for them to die of natural causes(scavenger theory might still be correct)(there goes the predator theory)
4.dem fish are just to damn smart and fast.








5.open to discussion...any one care to add?


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

like i've quoted earlier, according to the dictionary, a predator is anything that feeds on living organisms. this means that even a fish 10 seconds away from death, if it gets eaten by a piranha, is the victim of predation. piranha feed mainly on the sick/ill am i correct? well, just that fact alone classifies them as a predator, since they're eating a living organism, and also, its an easy meal, most predators would never pass up the easy meal for the hard one...good point with cats, however, i also feel that's kind of a "play" habit of domesticated cats as well, because several of the cats that my relatives own catch mice and birds all the time, and they never eat them, they just bat them around with their paws and slice them with their claws until they die.


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## CROSSHAIR223 (Jan 17, 2005)

r1dermon said:


> like i've quoted earlier, according to the dictionary, a predator is anything that feeds on living organisms. this means that even a fish 10 seconds away from death, if it gets eaten by a piranha, is the victim of predation. piranha feed mainly on the sick/ill am i correct? well, just that fact alone classifies them as a predator, since they're eating a living organism, and also, its an easy meal, most predators would never pass up the easy meal for the hard one...good point with cats, however, i also feel that's kind of a "play" habit of domesticated cats as well, because several of the cats that my relatives own catch mice and birds all the time, and they never eat them, they just bat them around with their paws and slice them with their claws until they die.


If you go by that definition I have PREDATOR gold fish. I've seen my feeders many of times start to peck at dying goldfish floating and still breathing at the top. I'd say they're dual format under this definition lol the prefer to scavenge but along the way of scavenging if a meal is taken it's dying breath they will gladly assist, if it's dead? so be it and they consume anyways, this is where oppurtunist comes in to play, and last if they are starved they will become predators as most things will when starved.


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## Hemi (Nov 13, 2005)

i lived on a mountian in upsate NY 
i had a pack of dogs i owend
1 husky male oldest 7 years
2 sheppard lab mix 1 male 1 female 2 years old
2 sheppard hound mix both females 1 years old

these dogs ate 75 pounds of dry food a week 
wich they had acess to all the time 
yet 
they killed chickens rabbits small birds and fish 
Yes FISH

i watched them devlope there hunting skills
i watched them share food in a pecking order
i also watched them come to blood over kills

they used to scare fish into the stream that flowed out of my lake 
there was a good 40 feet of no more then 2 foot deep water
were the large mouth bass would hang out on sunny days
one of the dogs would jump into the water deeper then the fish 
and for some reason the fish would go further into the shallows
these dogs even dug a spot out about 10 feet into the stream were a fish could actually swim around in
it was like 3 foot wide and 4-5 feet long
they had it down to a science
i never actually got to see them kill a chicken rabbit or small bird 
but i would see them eating them every day

there was an eating order also 
the husky who after 4 weeks didnt leave the house
always ate first 
the others would bring back the kill and basically hand it to him
then the other male would eat 
then his sister 
then the other 2 would get last licks

it amazed me 
i didnt stop it cuz i was so baffled about it 
i had people come over to see it 
and watch the fishing they did

anyways 
after one of the closer farmers caught the last 2 dogs in the chicken coupe i had to put them 2 dogs down
well basically he shot them for me 
we had some words 
but the 3 other dogs kept killing his chickens 
they changed there kills from early mourning (6am)
to 11-12 at night 
he never got to shoot them dogs
anyways i got bord of living on a mountian 
and moved back to long island 
i only kept my husky 
(he actually attacked a cop who tryed to arrest me once)
that was my boy 
the other 2 are still up there with a friend 
he said now that there pushing 10 years old there not hunting alot 
but they do accsionally fish still
mainly during spawning

so maybe a domesticated dog can learn to hunt 
but i still think natural instinc has a place 
and i dont think fish lose it like a dog


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

good story hemi


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## Hater (Apr 21, 2006)

"No, it is a scavenger A predator will kill and eat anything...do you think a shark cares which kind of seal it cathes? The only time Ive seen a Piranha kill a healthy fish, it was because of territorial disputes, or because it was starved. All predators first try for the young, the sick and the dying...but a piranha seems to only attack if these conditions are met, whereas a lion for example will take down whatever it can catch."

this is another pointless thread. Are you saying that piranhas that are hungry and given the opportunity won't kill any other fish that can fit in their mouth? And sharks do care what kind of seals they catch. You don't see a tiger shark attacking a elephant seal, as a matter of fact, not to many great whites go after elephants seal. The point is, even sharks don't attack everything they see.

I don't understand your "attack condition theory", lions will hunt down any sick or dying animal and will hunt any other healthy animal if the opportunity presents itself just like a piranha. The only difference is, you have a million cameras watching the lions but only a few viewing the pirahnas in the wild.

"Theres a reason they are called the Janitors of the Amazon.."

They are also called the wolf of the sea, can you explain to me why someone would label a scavenger or opportunistic feeded a wolf? Cause as far as I know, wolfs are supreme hunters ie."predators".

"You want prove that people want their P's to be more badass?

-Cut lips
-Names (KILLAZ, TERROR REDS, RIPPER)
-Pointless live feedings".

People do this with all animals. Lions are called king of the jungle when in fact they are far from it. No one is trying to make a piranha a bad ass, we are simply pointing out that they are not scavengers.

"This is a pointless arguement tho, but my useless post hopefully cancels out your useless post!"

I don't think this is a pointless arguement cause if it was, you wouldn't be replying. So hopefully this thread would cancel your thread.

"HAHAHHAA hopefully he brought books cause someone just got schooled"

Hey crosshair didnt need a book to fire back. Thanks for the important information you added to the thead :rasp:

Hater


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

This is actually an interesting topic. 
If a piranha was a predator, like a lion, at the rate they can reproduce...there would be nothing left alive in the rivers of the amazon. The defenition tossed around to classify a predator applies to any and every living thing on this planet. That is why there is a food chain...but not everything is classified as a predator. Everything has a roll in nature and the roll of the piranha is to clean up the amazon by eating the dead and dying, digesting them so the bacteria can feed on the waste. If they were the predator that so many want them to be...nothing could live in those rivers. They would reproduce at a rate that no other predator could control. There are many fish that feed on piranhas in the wild..if they were this badass predator...working in a pack...they could easily take out any other fish in those waters. 
Name one predator that nature is allowed to reproduce in the hundreds. As far as I know..it doesnt happen..because that would require its prey to reproduce at a much higher rate. Lions dont give birth to hundreds of cubs...why...because there is not enough prey to sustain that kind of reproduction. Piranhas can reproduce at a high rate because they are prey to many other fish, and they scavange their food. They dont take down the healthy fish unless they are trapped in a pool and starving. That is not thier roll in nature. This is all evolution and piranhas have evolved to be the scavangers of the amazon...not the predators.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

Im curious to see what you all who classify piranhas as predators woudl classify a vulture? 
I mean... a vulture can kill. Wait... wait. Ive seen a mouse stalk a grasshopper, it must be a predator. You arguements are based soley off your observations in the home... The home is not what piranhas really are.

This is still my favorite quote of the week

"a piranha is a top predator of the worst kind"

keep em coming


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2006)

Grosse Gurke said:


> This is actually an interesting topic.
> If a piranha was a predator, like a lion, at the rate they can reproduce...there would be nothing left alive in the rivers of the amazon. The defenition tossed around to classify a predator applies to any and every living thing on this planet. That is why there is a food chain...but not everything is classified as a predator. Everything has a roll in nature and the roll of the piranha is to clean up the amazon by eating the dead and dying, digesting them so the bacteria can feed on the waste. If they were the predator that so many want them to be...nothing could live in those rivers. They would reproduce at a rate that no other predator could control. There are many fish that feed on piranhas in the wild..if they were this badass predator...working in a pack...they could easily take out any other fish in those waters.
> Name one predator that nature is allowed to reproduce in the hundreds. As far as I know..it doesnt happen..because that would require its prey to reproduce at a much higher rate. Lions dont give birth to hundreds of cubs...why...because there is not enough prey to sustain that kind of reproduction. Piranhas can reproduce at a high rate because they are prey to many other fish, and they scavange their food. They dont take down the healthy fish unless they are trapped in a pool and starving. That is not thier roll in nature. This is all evolution and piranhas have evolved to be the scavangers of the amazon...not the predators.


Great post Jeff, you definitely have a way with words!

BTW (Hater), I wasnt trying to "own" anyone, or talk down to anyone, I was more trying to express my opinion...sorry if it came off as hostile Hater


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Hater said:


> "Theres a reason they are called the Janitors of the Amazon.."
> 
> They are also called the wolf of the sea, can you explain to me why someone would label a scavenger or opportunistic feeded a wolf? Cause as far as I know, wolfs are supreme hunters ie."predators".


Because "wolves in the water" will sell a hell of a lot more videos then "vultures in the water". But they are much more the vulture of the amazon them the wolf of the amazon.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2006)

True Wolf of the Amazon:


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Ex0dus Posted Today, 07:17 PM
> Im curious to see what you all who classify piranhas as predators woudl classify a vulture?
> I mean... a vulture can kill. Wait... wait. Ive seen a mouse stalk a grasshopper, it must be a predator. You arguements are based soley off your observations in the home... The home is not what piranhas really are.
> 
> ...


Actually, guppy's can be pretty mean cannibals too.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

And since I was asked this earlier what constitutes an opportunistic feeder. Piranhas are indeed opportunistic and are defined as an omnivore. In case some of you don't know what that is, here is the definition:

_An omnivore (from Latin: omne all, everything; vorare to devour) is an animal that eats both plants and meat. Omnivores lack the specialist behaviour of carnivores and herbivores, searching widely for food sources, and are thus better able to withstand changes within their ecological niche. The digestive systems of omnivores reflect their versatility: they are able to digest the components of plants in the manner of herbivores but also readily assimilate protein and other nutrients from meat._

So is a piranha a Predator? Yes. Is it a Scavenger? Yes and it is also vegetarian to a small degree.

For Hate: Enjoy the thread.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

hastatus said:


> > Ex0dus Posted Today, 07:17 PM
> > Im curious to see what you all who classify piranhas as predators woudl classify a vulture?
> > I mean... a vulture can kill. Wait... wait. Ive seen a mouse stalk a grasshopper, it must be a predator. You arguements are based soley off your observations in the home... The home is not what piranhas really are.
> >
> ...


Oh come on frank there is mice and there are men.we know that we are related with mice way down the line.I think you are the the biggest voice here on this subject.If you were summoned had to classify weather the red belly piranha was predator or scavenger in your new up-comming book what would it be???we all need to know your opinion on this 1.this is such a simple and basic thread on a specialized website that cant give the 1 straight that we all should know.
predator/scavenger????
you got off way to easy with opportunistic eater.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2006)

I think his point is that neither point alone is correct. But together, there is truth. The poll is like asking if men are carnivores or herbavoires...we are nither, but we are both, ya know what I mean?


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> I think his point is that neither point alone is correct. But together, there is truth. The poll is like asking if men are carnivores or herbavoires...we are nither, but we are both, ya know what I mean?


that would be omnivore


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

my conclusion is that piranhas should be classified as predators, however, i'll agree that they're not what most owners want them to be. savage killers....this should not disclassify them as a predator though, they're definately not the "top predator of the worst kind" though...i mean, look at a rattlesnake, rattlesnakes dont necessarily hunt, they wait for a rodent to pass them by, then they strike out of their hiding spot and catch their prey. since they dont hunt in the traditional sense of the word, are they not a predator? i think predator may be too broad of a classification. they may not be as viscious as people want to think they are, but it is my belief that they're still predatory.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

Grosse Gurke said:


> This is actually an interesting topic.
> If a piranha was a predator, like a lion, at the rate they can reproduce...there would be nothing left alive in the rivers of the amazon. The defenition tossed around to classify a predator applies to any and every living thing on this planet. That is why there is a food chain...but not everything is classified as a predator. Everything has a roll in nature and the roll of the piranha is to clean up the amazon by eating the dead and dying, digesting them so the bacteria can feed on the waste. If they were the predator that so many want them to be...nothing could live in those rivers. They would reproduce at a rate that no other predator could control. There are many fish that feed on piranhas in the wild..if they were this badass predator...working in a pack...they could easily take out any other fish in those waters.
> Name one predator that nature is allowed to reproduce in the hundreds. As far as I know..it doesnt happen..because that would require its prey to reproduce at a much higher rate. Lions dont give birth to hundreds of cubs...why...because there is not enough prey to sustain that kind of reproduction. Piranhas can reproduce at a high rate because they are prey to many other fish, and they scavange their food. They dont take down the healthy fish unless they are trapped in a pool and starving. That is not thier roll in nature. This is all evolution and piranhas have evolved to be the scavangers of the amazon...not the predators.


there are alot of lions left in Africa and there is alot of zebra's as well.Nature has been working on this balance for 10000's of years.lets say there are 1000 piranha per square mile of Amazon river.ok now how many fish would have to die each day of natural causes to feed those piranha in that river?Its illogical to think that these fish are not predatory and to say that because there is others predators who eat them makes them not predators.If this is the case the human race is the only predator on the planet...but wait we kill grizzly bears and they kill us.So I guess this "predator 
" thery is non existent on this earth?I dont think so.what Is a reasonable percentage of ones species diet that it must consume in which it has killed itself that is is safe to presume a predatory animal?If you are talking lions then I guess the females are predators and the males are scavengers since its the females doing the killing.Now i find it really hard to beleive that the most common fish in the amazon relies soley on the weak,old,and injured.Look at the ratio of lions and all the animals they prey on , Do you honestly think that you can say no Lion has ever killed A healthy animaleven though I think it is safe to say the ratio of predator to prey is higher for the lion.
take a step back scavenger believers and think about it.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

fry said:


> there are alot of lions left in Africa and there is alot of zebra's as well.Nature has been working on this balance for 10000's of years.lets say there are 1000 piranha per square mile of Amazon river.ok now how many fish would have to die each day of natural causes to feed those piranha in that river?Its illogical to think that these fish are not predatory and to say that because there is others predators who eat them makes them not predators.If this is the case the human race is the only predator on the planet...but wait we kill grizzly bears and they kill us.So I guess this "predator
> " thery is non existent on this earth?I dont think so.what Is a reasonable percentage of ones species diet that it must consume in which it has killed itself that is is safe to presume a predatory animal?If you are talking lions then I guess the females are predators and the males are scavengers since its the females doing the killing.Now i find it really hard to beleive that the most common fish in the amazon relies soley on the weak,old,and injured.Look at the ratio of lions and all the animals they prey on , Do you honestly think that you can say no Lion has ever killed A healthy animaleven though I think it is safe to say the ratio of predator to prey is higher for the lion.
> take a step back scavenger believers and think about it.












Sorry dude...I read this 3 times and still didnt understand what you are trying to say.


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## Hemi (Nov 13, 2005)

dude theres like at least 2000 diffrent kinda fish in the amazon
the ration for a P is WAY higher 
and thats only the fish 
think about reptiles and birds and smaller animals

how bout we all call Ps as killers
not because i want mine to be cooler
the word piranha is kool by itself
but because they kill weak injured and old whatever they find
they kill there owen kind 
dam that makes me think 
wouldnt a cannibal be the only predator
nah cant be either cuz a mother hamster will kill off babies

heres a theroy i have about Ps not killing every single thing in the amazon

take a salmon 
every year millions of them kill themselfs to breed
did the spicies die off 
no 
cuz as long as they breed there will be new ones 
im pretty sure the non sexually old enuff ones live also 
so as long as any fish gets to breed 
there will always be other fish

one other thing 
look at all the Ps who die during the dry season
i dunno how theres that many dead Ps 
and still alot more left afterwards

at least lets givem an even cooler name the predator
DR. Cavorkian or however you spell that guys name

oh and by the way ive never actually spoken the words 
"hey man . come check out my tank of predators"
predators is usually piranha
and thats all anyone ever needs to hear


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

Grosse Gurke said:


> there are alot of lions left in Africa and there is alot of zebra's as well.Nature has been working on this balance for 10000's of years.lets say there are 1000 piranha per square mile of Amazon river.ok now how many fish would have to die each day of natural causes to feed those piranha in that river?Its illogical to think that these fish are not predatory and to say that because there is others predators who eat them makes them not predators.If this is the case the human race is the only predator on the planet...but wait we kill grizzly bears and they kill us.So I guess this "predator
> " thery is non existent on this earth?I dont think so.what Is a reasonable percentage of ones species diet that it must consume in which it has killed itself that is is safe to presume a predatory animal?If you are talking lions then I guess the females are predators and the males are scavengers since its the females doing the killing.Now i find it really hard to beleive that the most common fish in the amazon relies soley on the weak,old,and injured.Look at the ratio of lions and all the animals they prey on , Do you honestly think that you can say no Lion has ever killed A healthy animaleven though I think it is safe to say the ratio of predator to prey is higher for the lion.
> take a step back scavenger believers and think about it.












Sorry dude...I read this 3 times and still didnt understand what you are trying to say.
[/quote]
sorry gg It makes sense to me.maybe you got to be drunk and tired to read it lol.If I am speakin giberish I will re-type this in the morning.
EDIT: I think hemi read it! but he might be drunk too.hehe


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

fry said:


> sorry gg It makes sense to me.maybe you got to be drunk and tired to read it lol.If I am speakin giberish I will re-type this in the morning.
> EDIT: I think hemi read it! but he might be drunk too.hehe












Sorry...but Im drunk and it still makes no sense!!


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## sprfunk (Dec 22, 2005)

Trick question. They are both, Just like lions, wolfs, hienas,and wild dingo's, piranha eat whenever they can whatever they can. Some seras will mainly hunt but wont pass up dead meal. Then again they hunt when no "easy" meal is there.


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## Gigante Pirana (Apr 23, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> People say "Predator" because they want thier fish to be more badass...but to me, a predator is something like a shark, something which actively hunts, or a wolf which hunts for it food and only scavenges when it needs to. Opportunistic feeders sounds about right.


Lol. People want their fish to be bad ass? come on man , that is just silly. Piranhas just like sharks are predators. They have different ways of hunting and different prey but they are predators.

Oportunistic feeders? can someone explain to me exactly what this means to me? is it that pirahnas only eats when their is an oportunity(ie dead fish only) and are we supose to buy this theory?

Like it was said before. Pirahnas are no more scavengers then sharks or any other "predatos" in nature. If the opportunity presents itself they will scavenge but they do hunt and prey on other fishes.

Any animal that attacks another living animal whether that animal is sick, dying or healthy, is no longer a scavenger. It is a "PREDATOR".
[/quote]

No, it is a scavenger







A predator will kill and eat anything...do you think a shark cares which kind of seal it cathes? The only time Ive seen a Piranha kill a healthy fish, it was because of territorial disputes, or because it was starved. All predators first try for the young, the sick and the dying...but a piranha seems to only attack if these conditions are met, whereas a lion for example will take down whatever it can catch.

Theres a reason they are called the Janitors of the Amazon..

You want prove that people want their P's to be more badass?

-Cut lips
-Names (KILLAZ, TERROR REDS, RIPPER)
-Pointless live feedings

The list goes on.

This is a pointless arguement tho, but my useless post hopefully cancels out your useless post!
[/quote]

Danny, for the most part rhoms are known from babies to full adults to kill or attempt to kill everything in their tanks regardless of whatever the other fish may be! It has been well documented for a long long time. Moreover, in our tanks general rhom behaviour tends to move beyond just predatory based killing and into highly territorial disposed killing.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I have given it to you straight. They are ominvores. This is one of the reasons why I don't involve myself in discussions like that. There are some folks that cannot accept their piranha is a FISH and will behave like a FISH. Instead its compared to other animals, which is ok, but embellishing the animal and making it larger than life is well........funny. A Hollywood theatrical review.

My general opinion is simply this, if you want to call it a predator, go ahead. If you want to call it a scavenger, go ahead. If you want to call it KILLER FISH, go ahead. But scientifically speaking they are what I said they are OMNIVORES. That is how they are classified. But since this is a hobbyist forum, I'll go drink my coffee and enjoy the follow ups on what others think "proves" differently. BTW for those don't know me, I've kept piranhas for over 40 years.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2006)

fry said:


> I think his point is that neither point alone is correct. But together, there is truth. The poll is like asking if men are carnivores or herbavoires...we are nither, but we are both, ya know what I mean?


that would be omnivore
[/quote]

Thats exactly my point, there was no in-between option to choose from, just like in this poll


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## Hater (Apr 21, 2006)

hastatus said:


> I have given it to you straight. They are ominvores. This is one of the reasons why I don't involve myself in discussions like that. There are some folks that cannot accept their piranha is a FISH and will behave like a FISH. Instead its compared to other animals, which is ok, but embellishing the animal and making it larger than life is well........funny. A Hollywood theatrical review.
> 
> My general opinion is simply this, if you want to call it a predator, go ahead. If you want to call it a scavenger, go ahead. If you want to call it KILLER FISH, go ahead. But scientifically speaking they are what I said they are OMNIVORES. That is how they are classified. But since this is a hobbyist forum, I'll go drink my coffee and enjoy the follow ups on what others think "proves" differently. BTW for those don't know me, I've kept piranhas for over 40 years.


You kept piranhas for over 40 years, damn. You have officialy becomed my piranha hero.

I think this thread folds on what the definition of the word "predator" is: If you look it up ina dictionary, you will all see that by the definition given there, piranhas are predators.

Bears are omnivore hastatus and everyone in the world knows that they are also predators and will scavenge when the opportunity presents itself wich makes them "opportunistic feeder". Piranhas are omnivore and I don;t disagree, but to say they don't hunt or predate on other fishes is just plain ridiculious.

Hater


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

Frank,
In your experience, what would you say makes up the LARGE part of the wild pygo diet?


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## black_piranha (Jan 12, 2006)

in the wild, definately scavengers.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

Definition of a predator taken from  here

A predator is an animal or other organism (such as a carnivorous plant) that hunts and kills other organisms, called prey, for food in an act called predation.

Predators are either carnivores or omnivores. The difference between a predator and a parasite is that for a predator killing the prey is necessary for consuming it, but for parasites it is not even desirable because a parasite lives on or in its host.

Herbivores also consume other species, but generally only in part, leaving the organism alive. However, where the prey consists of single-celled algae, the activities of the herbivorous grazer is generally of the same nature as that of a carnivore. As often in ecology there is seldom consensus on the distinctions; some ecologists prefer functional definitions like the one outlined above, others rather look at the ecological dynamics the relationships between the species create. The Volterra-Lotka equations describe a simple mathematical model of the interaction between predators and their prey.

There may be hierarchies of predators; for example, though small birds prey on insects, they may in turn be prey for snakes, which may in turn be prey for hawks. A predator at the top of its food chain (that is, one that is preyed upon by no organism) is called an apex predator; examples include the Great White Shark, tiger and crocodile. Such predators may have a profound influence on the balance of organisms in a particular ecosystem; introduction or removal of this predator, or changes in its population, can have drastic cascading effects on the equilibrium of many other populations in the ecosystem.

[edit]
Specialists and Generalists
Many predators specialize in hunting only one species of prey. Others are more opportunistic and will kill and eat almost anything. The specialists are usually particularly well suited to capturing their preferred prey. The prey in turn, are often equally suited to escape that predator. This is called an evolutionary arms race, and tends to keep the populations of both species in equilibrium.

There is a full spectrum of specialization. Some predators specialize in certain classes of prey, not just single species. Almost all will switch to other prey (with varying degrees of success) when the preferred target is extremely scarce.

[edit]
Motivation
Contrary to conventional belief, predation is not typically an indiscriminate urge to kill other living beings. When hunger is not an issue for the animal, most predators will typically not seek to attack prey since the basic need is absent and it is a waste of energy to do so. For instance, a large predator fish like a shark that is well fed in an aquarium will typically ignore the smaller fish swimming around it (while the prey fish take advantage of the fact that the apex predator is apparently uninterested).

It has been observed that well-fed predator animals in a lax captivity (for instance, pet or farm animals) will usually differentiate between putative prey animals who are familiar co-inhabitants in the same human area from wild ones outside the area. This interaction can range from peaceful coexistence to close companionship; motivation to ignore the predatory instinct may result from mutual advantage or fear of reprisal from human masters who have made clear that harming co-inhabitants will not be tolerated. Pet cats and pet mice, for example, may live together in the same human residence without incident as companions. Pet cats and pet dogs under human mastership often depend on each other for warmth, companionship, and even protection, particularly in rural areas.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predator"


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

So your telling me you consider a wren a predator?


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

Ex0dus said:


> So your telling me you consider a wren a predator?


So are telling me you dont?

I made this poll wrong by the definition.It should have been
predator or parasite.No doubt thare are some piranha's that may be parasitic feeders,but with reds usually when 1 takes a bite they all do.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

In reply to Exodus. That is the breakdown basic feeding of Pygocentrus. The others P. nattereri and P. piraya, feed similar. Its not all about devouring whole creatures. That is why researchers accept the notion that piranhas are like cows in that they eat what they need while sustaining the food chain. Which means, they don't always eat the entire fish. Again, in your aquarium that is an unnatural environment and what happens there is not always the way it is in nature. If it was..to quote somewhat else, there would be no aquatic life to feed the piranhas.



> Bears are omnivore hastatus and everyone in the world knows that they are also predators and will scavenge when the opportunity presents itself wich makes them "opportunistic feeder". Piranhas are omnivore and I don;t disagree, but to say they don't hunt or predate on other fishes is just plain ridiculious.


You very obviously did not read or comprehend what I wrote.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

fry said:


> So your telling me you consider a wren a predator?


So are telling me you dont?

I made this poll wrong by the definition.It should have been
predator or parasite.No doubt thare are some piranha's that may be parasitic feeders,but with reds usually when 1 takes a bite they all do.
[/quote]

You all keep comparing piranhas to all these top predators. We hear quite often about people being killed/attacked by tigers, lions, wolfs, etc... Why not piranhas? If they are the predator you all want to make them, why do the South Americans swin in the Amazon w/o 2nd thought??

To answer your question: No, I dont consider a wren a predator.


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## Hater (Apr 21, 2006)

Ex0dus said:


> So your telling me you consider a wren a predator?:laugh:


So are telling me you dont?

I made this poll wrong by the definition.It should have been
predator or parasite.No doubt thare are some piranha's that may be parasitic feeders,but with reds usually when 1 takes a bite they all do.
[/quote]

You all keep comparing piranhas to all these top predators. We hear quite often about people being killed/attacked by tigers, lions, wolfs, etc... Why not piranhas? If they are the predator you all want to make them, why do the South Americans swin in the Amazon w/o 2nd thought??

To answer your question: No, I dont consider a wren a predator.
[/quote]

Exodus you have to read the threads again. No one is saying that or comparing piranhas to top predators. We are using top predators to show or illustrate behaviors in them that can be seen in piranhas.

And are you telling me that unless you are able to kill a human, then we shouldn't consider an animal a predator? come one man.

Predator is an animal that kills other animals(or prey) to susbtain itself. Pirahnas kill other fishes and other prey for food in the wild. Therefore that makes them predatory fishes. They might not be the top of the food chain but they are predators.

Jesus this is a simple question. Look up the definition of a predator, look up the definition of a scavenger and come up with your own conclusion.

Pirahnas are "predators" period.

Hater


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

The by your defininition EVERY omnivoire is a predator.









Im honestly done with the topic. You kids will think whatever you want because God forbid you learn the truth behind the myth of piranhas.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

Ex0dus said:


> So your telling me you consider a wren a predator?:laugh:


So are telling me you dont?

I made this poll wrong by the definition.It should have been
predator or parasite.No doubt thare are some piranha's that may be parasitic feeders,but with reds usually when 1 takes a bite they all do.
[/quote]

You all keep comparing piranhas to all these top predators. We hear quite often about people being killed/attacked by tigers, lions, wolfs, etc... Why not piranhas? If they are the predator you all want to make them, why do the South Americans swin in the Amazon w/o 2nd thought??

To answer your question: No, I dont consider a wren a predator.
[/quote]
that answer was given in a previous post.
as much as it really does suck , unfortunately a wren is a predator.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2006)

> Exodus you have to read the threads again. No one is saying that or comparing piranhas to top predators. We are using top predators to show or illustrate behaviors in them that can be seen in piranhas.










Sounds like a comparison to me..?



> And are you telling me that unless you are able to kill a human, then we shouldn't consider an animal a predator? come one man.
> 
> Predator is an animal that kills other animals(or prey) to susbtain itself. Pirahnas kill other fishes and other prey for food in the wild. Therefore that makes them predatory fishes. They might not be the top of the food chain but they are predators.


By this definition, all living things are predators, except for plant life...unless you know of some living animals which survive on non-living matter, like dirt?



> Jesus this is a simple question. Look up the definition of a predator, look up the definition of a scavenger and come up with your own conclusion.


Piranhas are either a predator and a scavenger, or they are neither. But, if you had to pick which they would do in perfect conditions, they would scavange thier food. Therefor, of the options given, a Piranha is closer to a predator than a scavenger. Want to test this theory? Put 5 Pygos in a 240g tank. Then throw some cichlids in there. Then throw a dead cichlid in. Which do you think they would go for first? I ask in all honesty, as you seem to be portraying yourself as an all knowledgable piranha enthusiast.



> Pirahnas are "predators" period.
> 
> Hater


Ive always disliked it when people make up thier mind without even considering to see the situation from both sides







.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

fry said:


> Definition of a predator taken from  here
> 
> A predator is an animal or other organism (such as a carnivorous plant) that hunts and kills other organisms, called prey, for food in an act called predation.
> 
> ...


OK definition of a scavenger.found this and this was one point I was trying to point out last night.
definition of scavenging and definition of fish-eating
S. Friesen wrote:

>Well, it is scavenging. it is also scavenging when they eat something that
died in a flood or of old age, even if they do not have to chase any other
predator away. (Scavenging is defined as eating something that one was not
involved in killing).
>The problem with saying that any animal that scavenges is a scavenger is
that virtually *all* predators will scavenge if given the opportunity. (I
have heard it said that some snakes and some mustellids will refuse dead
meat, but I am not sure I believe it).
So, being a large flesh eater, *of* *course* T. rex would scavenge at least
*some* of the time.
>But the usual definition of scavenger is an animal that derives almost all
of its sustenance by scavenging. This is to make the distinction between
scavenger and carnivore clear an meaningful.

I would say Friesen's statement is the closest to the true definition.
However, defining scavenging or any other way of getting food is ungrateful task. Most meat-eaters are opportunistic feeders. Yet, in the diets of some of the carnivores the meat that came form their own active hunting prevails (like lions), while in the diets of some other meat-eaters like vultures the dead animals prevail. How can one define where is the border among the active hunters and scavengers? 51%?? To me it is almost a philosophical issue. Even among the same species some individuals might hunt 80% and more of its prey, while other members of the same species will scavenge 80% of their meals. Take for instance falcons and hawks. Those inhabited along the highways will live quite prosperously from the road kills and yet, who calls them scavengers. Or take for instance lion herds: in most of them lionesses take care of hunting food, while the old male joins in when the meal is ready - does it make it a scavenger?
The bigger problem is considering the nature of a long gone animal. We even cannot agree which of the living animals are scavenger and which are active hunters.
I came to the similar problem when defining fish-eaters. Baryonyx and Spinosaurus are defined as fish-eating dinosaurs. How can we know? First of all their snouts and teeth are built for catching fish. However, there is no doubt that they caught other animals and scavenged, too. But their primary specialization (anatomy) is what discloses them as piscivorous. The crocodiles and sharks are piscivorous, too, although they also catch and eat other prey. So, I think, when approaching the issue of scavenger or active, one should watch for the primary specialization - the anatomy of the animal: What was it built for? For me, as far as T.rex is concerned, there is no doubt it was specialized for active hunting. T.rex wouldn't refuse dead meat either - the more the better!


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

I know I said I was done with this thread... but....
weird you bring up t rex. Right now its widly accepted that he was a scavenger . Good example tho.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2006)

T-Rexs are built like scavengers...Piranhas seem to be aswell. A fish that is built like a predator IMO is a Piraya, or a Tiger Fish. Although I wont go further considering I know very little about this issue and dont want to sound even MORE like a fool :laugh:

Cool read:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3112527.stm

I just added put a peice of smelt in my tank....my P gobbled it down as soon as it hit the floor...lucky for my neons, he seems to be a scavenger


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## Hater (Apr 21, 2006)

"By this definition, all living things are predators, except for plant life...unless you know of some living animals which survive on non-living matter, like dirt?"

Look at the definiton I posted of predator and you will see that herbivores are not included. Unless you consider a plant a living animal. Now if in your world plants are not plants but animals then I guess my definition is wrong, I apologize ohh wise one.

"Piranhas are either a predator and a scavenger, or they are neither. But, if you had to pick which they would do in perfect conditions, they would scavange thier food. Therefor, of the options given, a Piranha is closer to a predator than a scavenger. Want to test this theory? Put 5 Pygos in a 240g tank. Then throw some cichlids in there. Then throw a dead cichlid in. Which do you think they would go for first? I ask in all honesty, as you seem to be portraying yourself as an all knowledgable piranha enthusiast."

I say this will all due respect, but this is the dumbest example posted on this topic. If you take a pride of lions and cage them, put on 5 living zebras and a dead one. who will they go for first? How can you say that an animal(in this case a fish) is not a predator simply because it choses to spend less energy actively chasing a healthy animal when there is a fresh dead one in front of it.

"Ive always disliked it when people make up thier mind without even considering to see the situation from both sides"

Is a good thing I can care less what you like or dislike. I have already read and did accept the fact that piranhas are omnivores and that they do scavenge. If you took the time to read my threads you would have noticed that. Myarguement is that they are also predators because they actively hunt other prey.

I hope you understood this and maybe this thread can be put to rest.

Hater


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2006)

> "By this definition, all living things are predators, except for plant life...unless you know of some living animals which survive on non-living matter, like dirt?"
> 
> Look at the definiton I posted of predator and you will see that herbivores are not included. Unless you consider a plant a living animal. Now if in your world plants are not plants but animals then I guess my definition is wrong, I apologize ohh wise one.


Its not just animals. Plants are living things, which are predetated by other organisms.











> "Piranhas are either a predator and a scavenger, or they are neither. But, if you had to pick which they would do in perfect conditions, they would scavange thier food. Therefor, of the options given, a Piranha is closer to a predator than a scavenger. Want to test this theory? Put 5 Pygos in a 240g tank. Then throw some cichlids in there. Then throw a dead cichlid in. Which do you think they would go for first? I ask in all honesty, as you seem to be portraying yourself as an all knowledgable piranha enthusiast."
> 
> I say this will all due respect, but this is the dumbest example posted on this topic. If you take a pride of lions and cage them, put on 5 living zebras and a dead one. who will they go for first? How can you say that an animal(in this case a fish) is not a predator simply because it choses to spend less energy actively chasing a healthy animal when there is a fresh dead one in front of it.


Funny you would say that, Lions are considered opportunistic feeders, and more than not scavenge for thier food











> "Ive always disliked it when people make up thier mind without even considering to see the situation from both sides"
> 
> Is a good thing I can care less what you like or dislike. I have already read and did accept the fact that piranhas are omnivores and that they do scavenge. If you took the time to read my threads you would have noticed that. Myarguement is that they are also predators because they actively hunt other prey.
> 
> ...


Aye, and I have accepted that they are predators...but all living things besides plants (by the definitions Ive gotten from Websters, and the ones posted on here) predetate something. What I am saying is that they cant be classified soley as one or the other, but if one was to try and stick a piranha into one of those categories...it would be a scavenger.

By the way, can you honestly prove this:



> Myarguement is that they are also predators because they actively hunt other prey.


?

From the books, the info Ive read on here, and the documentaries Ive seen, Piranhas rarely will attack a healthy animal, and even then it is because they are desperate. A true predator (in the way which you seem to think defines one) like a northern lynx will attack and kill anything it can see or catch.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Ok...I think this is settled. All animals that eat meat are predators with the exception of the vulture....but depending on what you read...they will prey on something that is not dead..but dying or unable to defend itself....so I guess that makes them a predator as well. So now I guess we have also learned that there is no such thing as a true scavenger.

Unfortunately for me and my fish, I will continue to wrongly view them as mainly scavengers and the cleaning crew of the amazon...and not the predators...or more appropriately the killing machine.....I guess are....so I will continue to make their diet non-live. I just hope they will be able to adapt to (and forgive) my not allowing them to hunt their prey....but force them dine on dead meat.









I also hope that Oregon fish and wildlife doesnt get a hold of this new discovery because at the rate these can reproduce, and the fact that they are a ferocious predator, they could destroy any ecosystem they were unnaturally introduced too. I guess the argument I used when testifying to the Oregon Senate that they are not a predator and dont pose a danger to swimmers should one get released into Oregon waters was not based in reality. I actually told them that dogs bite more people then piranhas in the wild..and therefore pose a larger threat then a piranha released in Oregon waters. God what a fool I made out of myself. Oh well...should they attempt to ban them in Oregon again I guess I will have to fess up and tell them about the true roll of these fish in nature.....Natural Born Killers!! Thanks for setting me straight!


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## Hemi (Nov 13, 2005)

SO if Ps arent perdator why do we care if they get loose in unatural waters
i mean they can cohab with any other fish and not wipe them out
i guess the fact that the us bans them in all the places they can survive is political hype
in there natural eco system there devoloped to do there part 
but if let out in a new it is seen as devistation
so whos right 
oh and think about the snake head 
same kinda logic 
but they have a broader liveing area
lets lettem into all the rivers lakes and streams in florida
and see how long it takes for them to kill everything
i bet it wouldnt take long for them to become the way the are in the amazon


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Grosse Gurke Posted Today, 02:36 PM
> Ok...I think this is settled. All animals that eat meat are predators with the exception of the vulture....but depending on what you read...they will prey on something that is not dead..but dying or unable to defend itself....so I guess that makes them a predator as well. So now I guess we have also learned that there is no such thing as a true scavenger.
> 
> Unfortunately for me and my fish, I will continue to wrongly view them as mainly scavengers and the cleaning crew of the amazon...and not the predators...or more appropriately the killing machine.....I guess are....so I will continue to make their diet non-live. I just hope they will be able to adapt to (and forgive) my not allowing them to hunt their prey....but force them dine on dead meat.
> ...


They straightened me out too. Perhaps my little fellow below is straightened out too. Just be a plant and sit there.


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## Hater (Apr 21, 2006)

I'm just tired of this thread so I'll leave it alone. Great post Danny, Gross , frye, hemi and Hatatus. I guess we will never know the answer now, will we?

Can someone contact someone at the discovery channel and get them to work on this pronto?









The all mighty Hater

P.S. Is that guy kicking the other guy in my avatar a "predator" for kicking the guy in the head or what?


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

Hater said:


> "By this definition, all living things are predators, except for plant life...unless you know of some living animals which survive on non-living matter, like dirt?"


No this is not the case at all.A fish may start out as a predator eating insect larvae but as it grows older It may be A parisite living off of fins and scales.as long as It dont kill its food it is not a predator.or say a cow It doesnt kill the grass that it eats,it grows back.I guess there may be bugs in the grass that the cow is eating though.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2006)

A cow kills the grass when it eats it


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> DannyBoy17 Posted Today, 03:52 PM
> A cow kills the grass when it eats it


And you can lead a horse to water but can't make'em drink it, anymore than you can teach a donkey to read.


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

i have to disagree with you grosse, just because piranha are falsely labeled as ferocious predators that kill maim and eat everything, doesnt mean that they're not predators. just because they dont kill everything in front of them doesnt mean they're not predators. nature has a balance, and a place for piranhas, they're specifically meant to be the "cleaning crew" of the amazon, they kill and eat sick fish. this fact alone makes them a predator, they may not be the biggest killing machine in the history of the planet, but they have their place among other predators. i think they should be classified as such...they CAN hunt and kill, they CAN scavenge...they're predator/scavengers...hehe.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Hemi said:


> i have to disagree with you grosse, just because piranha are falsely labeled as ferocious predators that kill maim and eat everything, doesnt mean that they're not predators. just because they dont kill everything in front of them doesnt mean they're not predators. nature has a balance, and a place for piranhas, they're specifically meant to be the "cleaning crew" of the amazon, they kill and eat sick fish. this fact alone makes them a predator, they may not be the biggest killing machine in the history of the planet, but they have their place among other predators. i think they should be classified as such...they CAN hunt and kill, they CAN scavenge...they're predator/scavengers...hehe.


And just like i said...based on this criteria...every carnivore and omnivore would be a predator. There is no way around it. But the simple fact is from my understanding...piranhas in the wild would only kill a healthy animal as a last resort. To me that is not what I think of when I think of a predator. I think of an animal that hunts its prey...not a fish that waits for something to dead or dying before it will eat.


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## Wussola (Jan 25, 2006)

r1dermon said:


> my response from a different thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The documentaries I've seen all say "scavenger" ... however

I like this answer. There's no argument that can be made here!


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## Guest (May 1, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > DannyBoy17 Posted Today, 03:52 PM
> > A cow kills the grass when it eats it
> 
> 
> And you can lead a horse to water but can't make'em drink it, anymore than you can teach a donkey to read.


What do you mean?

I know it might sound silly to say that a cow is "killing" the grass, but I believe its true...I love my plants, they keep me fascinated in nature and how it all works.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> > DannyBoy17 Posted Today, 03:52 PM
> > A cow kills the grass when it eats it
> 
> 
> And you can lead a horse to water but can't make'em drink it, anymore than you can teach a donkey to read.


What do you mean?

I know it might sound silly to say that a cow is "killing" the grass, but I believe its true...I love my plants, they keep me fascinated in nature and how it all works.








[/quote]
So if you trim your plants you kill them...uhh huh.


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## Guest (May 1, 2006)

fry said:


> > DannyBoy17 Posted Today, 03:52 PM
> > A cow kills the grass when it eats it
> 
> 
> And you can lead a horse to water but can't make'em drink it, anymore than you can teach a donkey to read.


What do you mean?

I know it might sound silly to say that a cow is "killing" the grass, but I believe its true...I love my plants, they keep me fascinated in nature and how it all works.








[/quote]
So if you trim your plants you kill them...uhh huh.








[/quote]

Actually, I love trimming my plants. I cant wait to fragment my Hybrid Tea Rose. But there is a difference between propagating a plant, and killing it...just ask my aquatic Cobomba


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## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

> Actually, I love trimming my plants. I cant wait to fragment my Hybrid Tea Rose. But there is a difference between propagating a plant, and killing it...just ask my aquatic Cobomba ranting.gif


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## fliptasciouz (Jul 4, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> > DannyBoy17 Posted Today, 03:52 PM
> > ...I love my plants, they keep me fascinated in nature and how it all works.
> 
> 
> Actually, I love trimming my plants. I cant wait to fragment my Hybrid Tea Rose. But there is a difference between propagating a plant, and killing it...just ask my aquatic Cobomba


Dude are you serious?!?!? lol anyways









A very long thread and the result for piranhas still considered the same classification for being a omnivore in the wild as shown in documentaries and Hastatus experience which i couldn't agree anymore. My only experience is basic observation in captivity, but had manage to feed them seeds when starved for weeks and they definately eat almost everything when the last resort applies especially during dry season.


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## Guest (May 1, 2006)

> Dude are you serious?!?!? lol anyways


Hey, you werent so iffy when I was giving you free plants that I had just trimmed


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## fliptasciouz (Jul 4, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> > Dude are you serious?!?!? lol anyways
> 
> 
> Hey, you werent so iffy when I was giving you free plants that I had just trimmed


i was just kidding Dan, my mistake if you didn't notice the sarcasm there


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## Guest (May 1, 2006)

fliptasciouz said:


> > Dude are you serious?!?!? lol anyways
> 
> 
> Hey, you werent so iffy when I was giving you free plants that I had just trimmed


i was just kidding Dan, my mistake if you didn't notice the sarcasm there








[/quote]

Its all just jokes bro


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