# My anti-piranha breeding thoughts



## SERRAPYGO (Feb 4, 2003)

I'm one of few that hopes the captive breeding of rare piranha never happens.
I don't want to walk into a local fish store in the future and see tanks full of cariba, piraya, geryi, irritans, rhoms ect.

What makes this hobby so exciting is how coveted and hard to obtain these fish are. I feel the breeding of gold spilos for example has kind of ruined the breed as far as popular demand goes. The spilo is a great piranha yet, there are so many around now their popularity has become diluted. I can't even give my 5 incher away.

Think how exciting it is to receive a rare piranha that has just been shipped to you. Would it be so exciting if you could just trott on down to the LFS, choose one out of many and stroll on home?

To me anyway, the thrill is in the hunt. It's harder to appreciate something when it can be obtained so easily. What do you think?

*Just say NO to piranha breeding*


----------



## NIKE (Jan 27, 2003)




----------



## LaZy (Jun 17, 2003)

NIKE said:


> how about just no to you breeding :rasp: thats a start


----------



## jdk79 (Feb 22, 2003)

I can see where he is coming from for sure!! Its neat to have something that is hard to find and actually have. Not to brag about it just to have something special.
Like if everybody had a Ferrari. It would still be an awesome car but something would be missing. Same deal if somebody started breeding and selling tank raised Piraya


----------



## notoriouslyKEN (Jul 31, 2003)

but wouldn't mass breeding help the P hobby? People could more accurately seperate different species (mainly rhombeus) and it would only lead to more research into the Piranha hobby


----------



## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

i see your views serra.but i think its in a way its good that some have been bred.some of the prices on piranha are unbelieveable..some are untouchable at 200,300,400 dollars..what fun is it when you can't even afford one?


----------



## jdk79 (Feb 22, 2003)

In my opinion thats whats so great about the rare expensive fish. There hard to get and when you get a chance to get one its really something. Nobody gets excited for a $40.00 8 inch Red Belly listed on here, but if some one is selling a 8 inch Piraya for $200.00 No matter what people get excited, if they buy it or not. I don't want Piraya to turn into something as easy to get as reds which would happen if they were raised in tanks eventually.


----------



## oburi (Jul 11, 2003)

That is a good point. I definately agree on that with you. Although i wouldnt mind experimenting with breeding rbp's or maybe spilo's. But it would totally ruin the feeling and anxiety of getting a rare species of piranha, or any fish for that matter, like asian arowana for example.

Oburi


----------



## vlahos (Sep 7, 2003)

personally im not into the breeding aspect either. i like going to all the fish stores in toronto to look for a rhom or gold. the reds are everywhere, so when you find a rhom, or gold, or brandtii it makes your trip worth it


----------



## Rhombo (Aug 26, 2003)

Has anyone thought about what could happen if the south american countries prevent the export of these fish?!?!?!? we would definitely need people that know how to breed them in captivity. otherwise, we'll never see these fish except for astronomical prices on the black market.


----------



## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Nick, you can find my reply to this in the Poker Table, many times...


----------



## traumatic (Jan 29, 2003)

I think that breeding most species is so hard to do now that it'll take a while -I hope- for tank bred geryi or manueli, etc. to show up at LFS. Maintaining these fish's "wild-caught" status enhances thier value to hobbyists, as well as it's cash-in value to dealers and exporters. Wild fish bring a whole different aspect to the table of keeping these species in the home aquarium. I know it'll happen, eventually these rivers wont' exist and neither will these species. Tank breeding is inevitable for either cause, good or bad ($$).


----------



## Joker (May 19, 2003)

I can see kinda where yer comming from. But for me I get my Ps shipped to me from either Ash or Pedro. So even if I buy a $5 baby red its still gunna cost me 50 bucks. Breeding can also help this hobby by bringing down prices some and possibly get more people interested in it. I know I am not gunna pay 200 bucks for a 12" Piraya. Its just not worth the risk to me to have it shipped here and then maybe die in transport. So with breeding in the future, that same 12" Piraya might eventually be $100. Just my 2 cents is all.

So people if you dont want breeding please have your P's Spade or Neutered. 
Ahhhh .. good ol Bob Barker on the Price is Right


----------



## phensway (Apr 7, 2003)

never thought about that before... but what a great arguement..... i am totally on your side......... maybe more species will emerge and it will still be hard to obtain one??????????????? hit or miss


----------



## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

I see it helping the hobbie. Is this a country club mentality? Why should the price be high?







Look what it did for cichlids. They have a choice that WE don't. Either pay big money or don't get it. I tell ya i would rather pay 20 bucks for a 5 inch piraya, and have them on every block. Than pay 200 and have 50 in shipping. Only to have it get eaten







Plus look at highbreds a far superior fish. Wow would ya like a blue piraya or a red rhomb. :smile:


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

My personal view....when you see geryi in the LFS it will be a sad day for the hobby.
Look at what happened to reds......if reds didnt breed so readily in the home aquarium they would get so much more respect. You can hardly give a red away now..same with spilos. The only fish that are really desired are the harder to get fish.
My other issue with breeding piranhas is that I like wild caught fish, I think it adds something to the enjoyment of having these fish.

Take Geryi for example. They are only collected in one remote area. If they are bred in captivity, and the price goes way down, it would not be worth collecting them in the wild. So much for wild fish, not you just have tank bred fish, diluting the characteristics of these great fish. Look at wild reds and tank bred....Like I said...Sad day for the hobby...IMO


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

ditto.. if i was into breeding my brandtii, i sure as hell wouldnt be flooding the market with them, i would release the best growouts in the $100 range. I dont want irresponsible kids getting ahold of them to watch them kill things.


----------



## Rhombo (Aug 26, 2003)

I think we can all agree that no one wants p's to become so common that they're a dime per dozen; however, I dont think that everyone in the hobby will begin breeding their p's just b/c it becomes possible. only those that are dedicating hours to their fish each day will succeed. From the way it sounds, the only fish that are easy to breed are rbp's, and that won't change. these rare p's aren't going to magically become easy to breed. a good method may be developed for breeding them, but it obviously won't be a simple thing to do or we would have figured it out by now.

slightly lower prices would benefit the hobby IMO


----------



## SERRAPYGO (Feb 4, 2003)

jdk79 said:


> I can see where he is coming from for sure!! Its neat to have something that is hard to find and actually have. Not to brag about it just to have something special.
> Like if everybody had a Ferrari. It would still be an awesome car but something would be missing. Same deal if somebody started breeding and selling tank raised Piraya


 Exactly. Good analogy.



> Need a Rhom Posted on Oct 27 2003, 11:31 PM
> I dont think that everyone in the hobby will begin breeding their p's just b/c it becomes possible. only those that are dedicating hours to their fish each day will succeed. From the way it sounds, the only fish that are easy to breed are rbp's, and that won't change. these rare p's aren't going to magically become easy to breed.


A long long time ago, this what was thought about nattereri. The thought of breeding this fish was inconcievable and laughable. And now...



> Raptor Posted on Oct 27 2003, 10:39 PM
> I see it helping the hobbie. Is this a country club mentality? Why should the price be high? Look what it did for cichlids. They have a choice that WE don't. Either pay big money or don't get it. I tell ya i would rather pay 20 bucks for a 5 inch piraya, and have them on every block. Than pay 200 and have 50 in shipping. Only to have it get eaten Plus look at highbreds a far superior fish. Wow would ya like a blue piraya or a red rhomb.


And this is the other side of the coin.
Country club mentality? Perhaps it is. Why are there country clubs in the first place? For the prestige. Would a country club be such a big deal if they were as common as McDonalds? Probably not.



> Need a Rhom Posted on Oct 27 2003, 09:08 PM
> Has anyone thought about what could happen if the south american countries prevent the export of these fish?!?!?!? we would definitely need people that know how to breed them in captivity. otherwise, we'll never see these fish except for astronomical prices on the black market.


And here is another good point. The "what if" factor. Yes I thought of this as well. So, essentially there are ups and downs to my anti-breeding thoughts. :smile:


----------



## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

Sorry, as you can see i get carried away some times. Like with my pathetic hometown football team.














I was just stating that Having a fish i like is NOT about getting the most expensive, but the one that i like the best. Money status has no effect to me. I buy what i like.


----------



## SERRAPYGO (Feb 4, 2003)

Raptor said:


> Sorry, as you can see i get carried away some times. Like with my pathetic hometown football team.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 No need to apologize Raptor. It's your opinion. My point is simply that I don't think this hobby would be quite as exciting if these fish were so readily available. It's fun to strive for things.


----------



## Outie (Feb 19, 2003)

I totally agree, it will be a sad thing if piraya, geryi, brandti, etc... become more wide spread and breed like rabbits just like reds. The other day i went to aquatics unlimited and basically gave away two red bellies. For the price they gave me for them i would have been happier just giving them away to someone. If that ever happens with piraya or caribe i will cry.







It's mainly about being somewhat elite in a piranha hobby almost, how many people even know wtf you are talking about when you are like oh yah i got a couple ternetzi's and caribe's most people i talk to just look at me funny.


----------



## jdk79 (Feb 22, 2003)

I know what you exactly what you are saying!! When I tell people I have different kinds of piranhas other than red bellies they say what are you talking about??? Theres more than one kind of piranha??


----------



## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

Anyway captive bred piranhas won´t ever beat wild caugh ones...don´t you think?







!


----------



## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Well I don't know what to say&#8230; Except I am in total dis-agreement&#8230; I happen to be one of the people who has breed Spilo, and S.Maculatus&#8230; I didn't breed the fish for money or to ruin the market&#8230;I gave away far more fish than I have sold&#8230;Breeding rare species helps a person to understand the piranhas natural biotope for one, and 2&#8230;Just seeing them spawn is a rare occurrence seen by very few&#8230;
There are methods of sexing piranhas via microscopic study that can only be done on fish larvae&#8230; The fish required for sexing just can't be obtained in quantities in the wild&#8230;There is so much good that can come from breeding the rare species&#8230;Such as; Studied in colonies by the hobbyist @ an economical price&#8230; Just because piranhas are breed doesn't mean they are to be sold&#8230; The knowledge obtained may be all that some are looking for&#8230; Since piranhas have large spawns, the fry can even be utilized as a free food source&#8230;
Have you thought of man doing what he always does??? Being the most destructive predator on the planet&#8230; There is always to possibility of contacting various governments and returning some of the offspring back to the wild&#8230; To continually take will eventually lead to extinction&#8230;How can a person truly care for an animal when it's ok to take them from the wild with no intent to replace them??? Piranhas are considered a natural treasure in SubAmerica&#8230;Do you think its fair for the foreigners to risk there lives in a very dangerous environment to get you your $300 rare piranha&#8230; Did you ever think maybe some of the collectors got bit by toxic snakes and died, to get you a rare piranha???
All and All there are many legitimate reasons to explore captive breeding&#8230;As for the piraya&#8230; They are only indigenous in one stream in the entire world, and we don't live there&#8230; If the country deemed it endangered, there would be no way you could ever get one&#8230;.With captive breeding and returning to the wild, future wild caught piranhas are guaranteed..


----------



## munky2000r (Sep 15, 2003)

i can see this going both ways, but if we keep taking these fish from the wild, their natural poplution might decrease in the wild, by breeding them, u still feed the demand but you arent plurging them from the wild anymore... this is a way i see it, might sound dumb though


----------



## Honda99_300ex (Apr 18, 2003)

I have mixed opinions on this subject also, I do like to have a Piranha that many people don't have, but then again, it would be nice top not pay so much money for a fish that you could get at a store, I don't really have a deffinate opinion, but I would like to see further exploring in breeding of rare species


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

> Well I don't know what to say&#8230; Except I am in total dis-agreement&#8230; I happen to be one of the people who has breed Spilo, and S.Maculatus&#8230; I didn't breed the fish for money or to ruin the market&#8230;I gave away far more fish than I have sold&#8230;Breeding rare species helps a person to understand the piranhas natural biotope for one, and 2&#8230;Just seeing them spawn is a rare occurrence seen by very few&#8230;


You are making an argument why you bred them, not why they should be bred. If you are the only one that gets to see them spawn, what good does that do for me.



> There are methods of sexing piranhas via microscopic study that can only be done on fish larvae&#8230; The fish required for sexing just can't be obtained in quantities in the wild&#8230;


If you are not going to breeding them, why would you care what sex they are?



> There is so much good that can come from breeding the rare species&#8230;Such as; Studied in colonies by the hobbyist @ an economical price&#8230; Just because piranhas are breed doesn't mean they are to be sold&#8230;


If they are not sold, how can they be studied at an economical price?



> The knowledge obtained may be all that some are looking for&#8230; Since piranhas have large spawns, the fry can even be utilized as a free food source&#8230;


Once again, you are making an argument for the breeder, not what good it will do for the hobbiest or the hobby.



> Have you thought of man doing what he always does??? Being the most destructive predator on the planet&#8230; There is always to possibility of contacting various governments and returning some of the offspring back to the wild&#8230;


Do you really think the average breeder is going to contact the government of Brazil, send them 100 fry for release in the wild, and this will make a difference?



> To continually take will eventually lead to extinction&#8230;How can a person truly care for an animal when it's ok to take them from the wild with no intent to replace them???


Which species of piranha are on the endangered species list? With the number of hobbiest in the world that keep piranhas, I think the fish will not be affected by the hobbiest, but rather by mans expansion into there enviorment.



> Piranhas are considered a natural treasure in SubAmerica&#8230;Do you think its fair for the foreigners to risk there lives in a very dangerous environment to get you your $300 rare piranha&#8230; Did you ever think maybe some of the collectors got bit by toxic snakes and died, to get you a rare piranha???


People do all kinds of things for money....no one said they had to go get them, they are being paid to...they could just as easily say no.



> All and All there are many legitimate reasons to explore captive breeding&#8230;


For who? Who really benefits here?



> As for the piraya&#8230; They are only indigenous in one stream in the entire world, and we don't live there&#8230; If the country deemed it endangered, there would be no way you could ever get one&#8230;.With captive breeding and returning to the wild, future wild caught piranhas are guaranteed..


But they are not being endangered, Frank already said they are on the approved list and there is no reason to take them off. Piraya has already been bred in Brazil so there is no reason for someone in America to breed them and ship a bunch of fry back to them.

I still feel the sam way about captive breeding...what you have said has not changed my views.


----------



## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

*Wow Gross Gurke!!*

There was no need to disect all my statements and beliefs in captive breeding... 
For 1 if I am successful in captive breeding S.Geryi I will make a tremendous effort to place some back into the wild... And I wasn't thinking a 100 more like a 1000 for starts... This opens jobs, and could create a better repore with South American countries... This possibility leads to endless study that some hobbyist my be interested in... Such as tagging the fish and studying there shoaling and tavel in the wild....

I have made some friends from Greece... They travel to Peru, Bolivia, and Equador many times a year... I am planning to meet up with them in Peru to study piranha behavior in the wild, and hopefully increase my knowlege in spawning...To me that is the most rewarding part of the hobby... *To duplicate the native biotope, and reduce stress the the point the fish are comfortable... The fish are so comfortable they spawn...*

Forums are independant experiences and beliefs... Not let's disect every statement this guy has... If you are truly against captive breeding you can boycott it by not purchasing any fish other than wild... Once again it's a place of opinions and experience... But if you ment no harm and were 100% against my belifes in persuing captive breeding, I am glad you shared your side... If you were just critisizing... Shame on you...

As for seeing my fish spawn... I have told many of the member her I will be providing video of my S.Maculatus spawning....And Cariba is successful...

And as for the Piraya... The animal isn't indigious in America... What I was simply saying is the country from origin could declare it endangerd, and there wouldn't be a thing you could do.... Except hope someone in the States breeds them... Or @ best you could view it in large Aquariums and Zoos...

Shall you critisize me spelling next....


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Majority of zoological parks today have some type of captive breeding program. Those animals are sometimes returned to the wild. South America is focusing on fish husbandry in attempting to replace species because of deforestation, gold mining, hydroelectric plants to name a few. Catoprion mento (for example), the wimple piranha is extremely rare and presently due to research they are expanding ways to breed this species for return to the wild. Granted it may not be at the U.S. shores where these "bred species" will originate from, but anyone (including SC) learns from breeding these fish will benefit science and husbandry. Behind the scenes some breeding techniques by hobbyists are being utilized for rare species. If it were not for captive bred programs like the Asian Aruana they would still be considered endangered because of native fish depletion. Same goes with S.A. aruana where the males were killed to get the young from the mouths. Today, there is ongoing breeding programs. You'd be surprize how many common pirana species originate from fish farms and not the "wild caught" as you think they are. The only difference being the native water is piped in and not from your sink.


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

SC,
You really should not take things so personal. Yes I disected your post because you posted your reasons you are for breeding piranhas and I was simply giving my reasons why I dont agree. How am I supposed to state my case without using a counterpoint to each of your reasons. 
I have no problem saving a species, that is not why I am against captive breeding. You have sold your fish for profit to advance your own goals. This is what I am refering too. Before spilos were bred in captivity, they were a fish in demand...now, as serrapygo said, you cant give them away. If everyone was as noble as you and did not try to make a profit out of breeding than the hobby would be fine, but I dont think that will be the case. 
Part of the attraction to this hobby for me is not being able to get every fish I want and needing to wait for that next shippment to come in. I am not speaking for everyone, some may not view it the same. I am simply saying that I like to work to get the fish I want, wait for them to be available and then jump on the deal.
And I for one could not care less about your spelling....however your gramer leaves something to be desired.


----------



## FuZZy (Apr 18, 2003)

All i got to say is keep on breeding them.


----------



## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

grosse gurke said:


> And I for one could not care less about your spelling....however your *gramer* leaves something to be desired.


 I hope this was a joke.

Anyways, I must say I disagree with you GG and SP. I feel your being a little close minded to the "big picture" of piranha breeding. Essentially you are looking at it in terms of the hobbyist when you should be looking at it in terms of nature. What if one of these fish go extinct and the knowledge to breed them is not present.....and these cool fish would be lost for generations to come....simply because hobbyists opposed it because they want to have cool "rare" fish.

One thing I have gleaned from the forums recently is that the geryi's natural habitat could be threatened stressing the fragile balance these already rare fish must survive in. Now getting breeding data on these fish is a responsibility for *someone* currently keeping these fish in captivity (albeit museums and such).....

Now, what would you rather have? The last geryi live and die in your living room.....or have data available so the fish can live on in museums to the wonderment of many thousands of people to come?


----------



## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

This would be fine, captive breeding, however the people who are doing the breeding should be making sure that inferior specimens are not being released into the hobby. With captive breeding, we could end up with higher quality specimens... like the one in a million specimens that are in the wild, but most breeders in the usa dont see the big picture of the benefits that selective breeding brings.


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Xenon said:


> grosse gurke said:
> 
> 
> > And I for one could not care less about your spelling....however your *gramer* leaves something to be desired.
> ...





> grosse gurke said:
> 
> 
> > And I for one could not care less about your spelling....however your *gramer* leaves something to be desired.
> ...


Would you people f*cking lighten up...Jesus. Cant disagree with someone and have a little fun.



> I have no problem saving a species, that is not why I am against captive breeding.


If this is the reason for breeding, dont release them into the hobby...problem solved.


----------



## str8up (Sep 20, 2003)

WOW what a thread!!! 
Why do people get so heated over opinions?
Everyone has one...and that's what were here for ....to hear them....lol
Personnally...I was extatic when I heard I could get a dozen rbp's for under 200.00 with shipping and handling.
Gaining jobs and loosing them is part of life...so no opinion there...
As far as breeding them in hobby form.....I say go for it....I am.
I think that it would be a great experience. I have had Piranha for 24 years at least and Never had it happen.... For those who get to..YAHOOOOO
Document Document Document...For those of us who havnt' had the Excellent opportunity to do so. THANKS!!!
As for taking them outa the wild.......I don't think were gonna get shorted but...If you really want a Wild P original waters.... Pay my friend.
I like to hunt Deer...but I'm not paying some goof 8000 dollars to go to Africa to do it. I don't have that luxary. I have 6 kids...lol Other priorities......
For us... My family has always loved the Red Belly P's. No one knows truly why.
We just sit...watch and wait for them to eat there meal....quietly...
The P's have more interest in my home than my 2000.00 computer and Horse in the back yard!!! 
As far as taking them back to S.America.. well...ok. If that's what works for you.
I think the best scientific help would be it's healing properties.
I know so many youth and adults that have M.S. and other diseases. 
Wouldn't it be great if They found a cure for some of them from a P?
I actually don't know anyone that has a P let alone 12 of them....besides some of you so. .. I'm in good shape keeping up with the Jones's
I certainly hope there is "someone" out there that is watching the situation with P's in there natural habitat. After all....All of our P's came from there Genetically.
I don't think we have much to worry about since You are on the case!!!
But let's remember...this is a Hobby forum. We all have something to learn from this thread I think.
Hope you all have a great day......Unless...you have other plans.
Later.....Str8


----------



## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

grosse gurke said:


> Would you people f*cking lighten up...Jesus. Cant disagree with someone and have a little fun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...










I was just trying to determine whether it was on purpose or you were making fun of someones spelling and grammer while making a mistake yourself. I found it ironic and funny. Sorry you took my comment the wrong way.



> If this is the reason for breeding, dont release them into the hobby...problem solved.


I guess the notions of capitalism escape you.









I mean seriously GG....what businessman in their right mind wouldnt capitalize on this and flood the market? Its the system we live in, ingenuity is always followed by someone trying to get rich off it.

I think at its most base, your argument is very sound....yet it is very ideological....and not very realistic.


----------



## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

On another note, it is impossible to compare fish to collectors items. These are not one of a kind baseball cards, they are living animals where market supply is only limited by the determination and cost equations of the people gathering the specemins.


----------



## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

> From Gross Gurk Would you people f*cking lighten up...Jesus. Cant disagree with someone and have a little fun.


I am sorry if I was wrong&#8230; I have just been giving a forum about breeding piranhas other than Reds in the home environment&#8230; I consider it a privilege to share my personal experiences with others&#8230; I considered what you call FUN inappropriate and a direct strike out against what my forum stands for&#8230; There is E-mail and messenger if you would truly like to debate with me on the topic&#8230; Many people come here for information and trust this site&#8230;

The reasons I pursue breeding the rare species are obviously reasons you have never considered&#8230; When my friends that don't have the economic stability you do, have an interest in Manueli; and can't afford it&#8230; That hurts me... Having a rare piranha will make a person study some&#8230; This study time can lead to a rewarding interest&#8230; The new hobbyist is born&#8230;
I choose not to reply to this posting any more&#8230; Just please don't post topics like this in my forum&#8230;.


----------



## str8up (Sep 20, 2003)

Hey Bud...
No one said you were wrong...I don't think you are [email protected]@!!
Remember....Opinions are like......well you know...and we all have them...lol
You go brutha ....Do what you do...this world would be a better place if there were more people that cared enough to help others!!!
had it not been for them......I would never have had a Piranha....
Hope your friends do ok....Later.....Str8


----------



## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> The new hobbyist is born&#8230;


 and hopefully a new member of this site.


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

> I considered what you call FUN inappropriate and a direct strike our against what my forum stands for&#8230; There is E-mail and messenger if you would truly like to debate with me on the topic&#8230; Many people come here for information and trust this site&#8230;


Dude....Point out where I made a direct strike against you. I dont agree with breeding of pirahnas...so f*cking what...I cant have an oppinion.









I will continue this in private....


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Kids.


----------



## o snap its eric (Feb 19, 2003)

thePACK said:


> i see your views serra.but i think its in a way its good that some have been bred.some of the prices on piranha are unbelieveable..some are untouchable at 200,300,400 dollars..what fun is it when you can't even afford one?


 My thought exactly, the hunt is what this hobby is all about. But when the hunt is totally unatable because of money then thats another story


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

> > If this is the reason for breeding, dont release them into the hobby...problem solved.
> 
> 
> I guess the notions of capitalism escape you.
> ...


This is exactly what I am talking about. I believe breeding fish in captivity will flood the market with fish, like has happened with reds and spilos, making them (for me) less desirable.
I know a little about economics and the capitalism, this is why I believe that there are some goals being persued here besides the furthering the hobby. I would not blame the breeder for selling the fish...but I dont need to be happy about it.



> I think at its most base, your argument is very sound....yet it is very ideological....and not very realistic.


Interesting because I am not saying the breeder wont sell his fish....I am saying he will.


----------



## mantis (May 16, 2003)

hastatus said:


> The only difference being the native water is piped in and not from your sink.


really...that's nuts

great thread


----------



## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Did you read this GG
Where is cheap ternetzi?

Looks like you belief in captive breeding destroying the market has some flaws....


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> Did you read this GG
> Where is cheap ternetzi?
> 
> Looks like you belief in captive breeding destroying the market has some flaws....:laugh:


 Not really. I knew Terns and Cariba have been bred in captivity...for some time, but the breeders have chosen to remain quiet...not releasing large quantities to bring down the market. I believe this is the first time Frank has actually released the names to the public.
You said in a previous post that you want to change the market. You stated you are sad because your friend can not afford to buy a manuelli and that is the reason you got into breeding...in order for you to make a sizable dent in the price you would need to flood the market with the fish so therefore I do not think I am incorrect....


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Grosse gurke Posted on Oct 29 2003, 08:54 PM
> 
> Not really. I knew Terns and Cariba have been bred in captivity...for some time, but the breeders have chosen to remain quiet...not releasing large quantities to bring down the market. *I believe this is the first time Frank has actually released the names to the public.*
> You said in a previous post that you want to change the market. You stated you are sad because your friend can not afford to buy a manuelli and that is the reason you got into breeding...in order for you to make a sizable dent in the price you would need to flood the market with the fish so therefore I do not think I am incorrect....


Actually its been common public knowledge when I first published it in 1993 via the newsletter. The same information (primarily Bud Guyer) is posted in P. cariba and P. nattereri via OPEFE. Tony's name has been mentioned by me in other threads, both here and in Predatory Fish. Jim Smith (Furious Fins) has bred cariba and sold them via his store.

As for flooding the market, the wild ternetzi was flooded in early 80s by Lucanus who brought them in and they just didn't sell. Why? because nobody cared about them because they looked just like nattereri. It wasn't until the 90's that "ternetzi" became a hot item by reports of it growing over 17 inches (which was not the case at all) and of course the embellished stories retold over and over again in T. Roosevelt tradition which made this fish the "hot item".

So in a nutshell, sometimes you get a hot item everyone wants and sells for astronomical numbers and other times, nobody cares about them.


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > Grosse gurke Posted on Oct 29 2003, 08:54 PM
> >
> > Not really. I knew Terns and Cariba have been bred in captivity...for some time, but the breeders have chosen to remain quiet...not releasing large quantities to bring down the market. *I believe this is the first time Frank has actually released the names to the public.*
> > You said in a previous post that you want to change the market. You stated you are sad because your friend can not afford to buy a manuelli and that is the reason you got into breeding...in order for you to make a sizable dent in the price you would need to flood the market with the fish so therefore I do not think I am incorrect....
> ...


Sorry Frank,
I thought I had seen threads about who is breeding terns and caribe and you stated that they did not want there names publicly mentioned. I know Jim had them for sale on his site, he i thought was the exception.
My bad.


> As for the Piranha Cove. I personally know Jim and Jon Smith. They are honorable men and their claims about breeding caribas is accurate since I am the one who put them in touch with the U.S. breeder of these fishes and others. This information is available only to certain people, so do not write or ask me for information on who to contact.


This is the post I was refering to Frank, sorry for the missinterpritation.


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> grosse gurke Posted on Oct 29 2003, 09:08 PM ...Sorry Frank,
> I thought I had seen threads about who is breeding terns and caribe and you stated that they did not want there names publicly mentioned. I know Jim had them for sale on his site, he i thought was the exception.
> My bad.


That was certainly the case a few months ago and nothing to be sorry about. It was because the "experts" from other forums disputed the information I was providing that the information became public with the people breeding them agreeing to it. So now its in the open.

The situation is there are people that will simply not believe it. They demand proof. Oh well.







I'm still waiting for proof on that wild caught 17 inch ternetzi I keep reading about that has yet to surface and documented.


----------



## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

grosse gurke said:


> Interesting because I am not saying the breeder wont sell his fish....I am saying he will.


 whats even more interesting is that you missed my entire point. Yes I realize you are saying they will sell them. What is unrealistic is that you can do anything to stop it.


----------



## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

hastatus said:


> I'm still waiting for proof on that wild caught 17 inch ternetzi I keep reading about that has yet to surface and documented.


 someone must have hooked my johnson again. damn i hate when that happens!


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Xenon said:


> grosse gurke said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting because I am not saying the breeder wont sell his fish....I am saying he will.
> ...


 Who said I could stop it?
I never said I could do anything about it, it is a byproduct of them being bred in captivity. And I am not naive enough to think I could do anything about it. Just because I dont agree with something does not mean I am narrow minded enough to think it will never happen.
You actually thought I believed I could stop people from breeding these fish...







I am not some abortion activist that would take my objections to the streets, I just dont agree with it, Im not going to torch SC's house for breeding fish...


----------



## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Torch my house&#8230; That's the funniest thing I heard in a long time :laugh: &#8230;I can't stop laughing&#8230; How could your mind concieve something like that....Be bold be daring&#8230; "Spark it up home-boy"&#8230;That would be the last mistake made by one captive bred protester&#8230;.I have the rights of any American&#8230; Breeding fish, and protecting my home any way I see fit&#8230;


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> Torch my house&#8230; That's the funniest thing I heard in a long time :laugh: &#8230;I can't stop laughing&#8230; Be bold be daring&#8230; "Spark it up home-boy"&#8230;That would be the last mistake made by one captive bred protester&#8230;.I have the rights of any American&#8230; Breeding fish, and protecting my home any way I see fit&#8230;


 What are you talking about? Having trouble understand what I wrote?



> *I am not some abortion activist* that would take my objections to the streets, I just dont agree with it, *Im not going to torch SC's house *for breeding fish...


I thought you were done with this thread?


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I was saying that this is not that big a deal. There are much more important things going on than you breeding fish.


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Oh my.....where are them white coats when you need them.









We went from breeding fish vs captive to suggesting burning houses and now abortion LOL.

You two crack me up.


----------



## akio525 (Sep 4, 2003)

i agree with SC I think captive breeding would be good for the hobby by dropping prices. I dont chose what piranha Im going to get by whatever is the rarest or most expensive I chose according to whatever species I like. Thats just my opinion but maybe others value their fish according to how much they pay.


----------



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> akio525 Posted on Oct 29 2003, 11:18 PM
> i agree with SC I think captive breeding would be good for the hobby by dropping prices. I dont chose what piranha Im going to get by whatever is the rarest or most expensive I chose according to whatever species I like. Thats just my opinion but maybe others value their fish according to how much they pay.


 Very good insight. Its kind of like everyone being able to buy a De Lorean. Doesn't make it unique anymore. So the $$$'s and size of the fish are a great incentive to keep them beyond some people's grasp. The have and have not's disparity. Just look at posts from other forums on who has the biggest fish or who paid the most. Some honestly do collect fish and do so without regard for price. Other's just do it, to do it without regard for the critter's life and health.

My opinion has always been Wild caught are better for their natural beauty which fades in the home aquario over time. Captive bred are better for those who cannot afford piraya for $300, but locally can get them for say 1/2 that. <<<<<just an example folks, so don't write and ask me where to get them.


----------



## SERRAPYGO (Feb 4, 2003)

This is a point of veiw merely from a hobbyist stand point! Not a profiteers! Not a conservationalist!

SC, if you can do all those conservationalist things you are talking about earlier than hey, more power to you! This thread was opinion based as a collector. As i siad before, there is an up and a downside to all of this and none of the arguements presented here have changed my mind as merely a collector.



> Torch my house&#8230; That's the funniest thing I heard in a long time &#8230;I can't stop laughing&#8230; How could your mind concieve something like that....Be bold be daring&#8230; "Spark it up home-boy"&#8230;That would be the last mistake made by one captive bred protester&#8230;.I have the rights of any American&#8230; Breeding fish, and protecting my home any way I see fit&#8230;


Life has got to be rough for you when you take things so litterally.


----------



## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Naw serrapygo... just having fun as GG called it... Life is great for me...
I have a beautiful home filled with 16 fishtanks... My basement will soon be getting shelves to house smaller tanks....My second bedroom if filled with tanks and various species of piranhas... Sometimes I have teens and people in there early 20's veiw my piranhas... I explain the various species.... At times they become interested, untill they find out the price...I gave my large red colony to one... He still has and loves the fish...The chemistry and testing is just pretty colors to him, but I am teaching him all that he can comprehend per visit...He expressed great interest in Manueli... I may get him one...

I have always liked youngters... I consider them out future... I feel alot of sorrow when he expresses wanting a room filled with piranha like mine...

I do breed them to make them economical to some... The S.Macculatus I have spawned, I won't sell to a pet store if the price them over $7.00...I think that is truly a fair price for the fish... but this is just my opinion... I paid more than twice that when I purchased mine... But I learned so much from them...


----------



## SERRAPYGO (Feb 4, 2003)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> Naw serrapygo... just having fun as GG called it... Life is great for me...
> I have a beautiful home filled with 16 fishtanks... My basement will soon be getting shelves to house smaller tanks....My second bedroom if filled with tanks and various species of piranhas... Sometimes I have teens and people in there early 20's veiw my piranhas... I explain the various species.... At times they become interested, untill they find out the price...I gave my large red colony to one... He still has and loves the fish...The chemistry and testing is just pretty colors to him, but I am teaching him all that he can comprehend per visit...He expressed great interest in Manueli... I may get him one...
> 
> I have always liked youngters... I consider them out future... I feel alot of sorrow when he expresses wanting a room filled with piranha like mine...
> ...


 Very good.











> I feel alot of sorrow when he expresses wanting a room filled with piranha like mine...


Why?


----------



## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Why????

Becuase he has developed an interest in the fish, and can't afford even the tanks...I may teach him to breed reds... I will watch and see if he can endure that type of dedication and daily maintenence... If he proves worthy... I will hook him up with some people to trade large quanties of his reds for some rare ones, and credit for tanks....

That is how my collection grew... I got Piraya, Geryi,Cariba, and next a shoal of Manueli.... I should correct myself on shoal... I will be getting a dozen Manueli...This breeding has allowed me to use fish for money, and trade large quantities for rare fish.... Some people think I get used, but to me it's very fair....That is what I was trying to explain... I have different motive to breeding, than making money... I honestly have an obsession for piranha, and want to experience every species in my home aquariums...With each new species begins new studies... My studies just seam to end with............. Can I induce spawing in the home aquarium with this species???? Shoaling is hard, and just a minor steppin stone, for the great work I attempt


----------



## wvarda (Aug 8, 2003)

> I have the rights of any American&#8230; Breeding fish, and protecting my home any way I see fit&#8230;


God these american quotes are enough to make anyone from anywhere else sick to their stomach.

how bout www.piranha-fury.ca ?









No offense SC


----------



## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

I would only be concerned if I actually knew for a fact that someone could breed a p beyond natts, caribes, and spilos. It is hard enough to get some of these fish to flourish, let alone breed. I am not worried.


----------



## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Imo, it's pretty selfish/arrogant to say that those are breeds should only be available for true hobbyists/collectors.
I can understand that some species will loose part of their desirability as soon as they become readily available in pet stores, but is that your motive to keep them anyways? I mean, if the coolness of a fish is determined by its rarity/price tag/amount of people that keep that species, you're on the wrong track, imho.

Here in Holland, anything besides reds is practically non-present: so if I want to own more than just reds, I have a problem (or a hole in my wallet).
For me, and all those people in a similar situation, captive breeding would be a blessing, since it will make those species that are now beyond reach, available to them as well, at affordable prices.
I don't give a damn if 10, 100 or 1000 or 100.000 people keep the same species as I do: it's the individual fish _I_ keep in _my_ tank, that I observe and take care of, not those of others - wheter many others have the same species is insignificant for me, and even if 100.000 have the same fish, that won't make _my_ any different/less.


----------



## french toast (May 2, 2003)

> Here in Holland, anything besides reds is practically non-present: so if I want to own more than just reds, I have a problem (or a hole in my wallet).
> For me, and all those people in a similar situation, captive breeding would be a blessing, since it will make those species that are now beyond reach, available to them as well, at affordable prices


Exactly same feelings for me Judazzz







That's just impossible in France to get something else than RBP's, you have to import them. And when your fish finally arrives at the airport, you've already paid something like 3 times its price


----------



## SERRAPYGO (Feb 4, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> Imo, it's pretty selfish/arrogant to say that those are breeds should only be available for true hobbyists/collectors.
> I can understand that some species will loose part of their desirability as soon as they become readily available in pet stores, but is that your motive to keep them anyways? I mean, if the coolness of a fish is determined by its rarity/price tag/amount of people that keep that species, you're on the wrong track, imho.


 Yes Jonas, that would be an arrogant selfish reason.

In my case, my stance is this simply. I've been keeping fish for over 30 years now, and in those 30 years I've been in and out of every fish store in my town a million times. And I see the same old fish all the time. I've kept all the same fish. I've had at one time almost everything. (except saltwater)
This is a real treat being able (but not easily) to get my hands on something unusual and off the beaten path. It sparks my interest more.

I'm not against breeding piranha per say. Just the mass retail of them. But, in reality, I know breeding and mass retail will someday go hand in hand. It's unavoidable. But, wtf? if it goes that route I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. i'm not going to picket in front of a breeders house or Like GG siad, TORCH IT









It's really not that big of a deal to me I guess but, if I could see it go one way rather than the other I'd choose my way.


----------



## str8up (Sep 20, 2003)

This thread is still going?


----------



## Lyle (Jan 29, 2003)

I just finished reading this thread for the first time...and perhaps I would be smart to let sleeping fish lie...but I'm not going to.









One thing that I feel has been overlooked is the debate itself. This thread is full of people who CARE ABOUT PIRANHAS. It is the debates themselves that improve the hobby for everyone and increase our knowledge and understanding of the whole thing.

Now, that is not to say that both sides do not have valid points. I can understand people wanting to maintain the rarity of a species in the home aquarium, ie. S. Geryi in order to increase the enjoyment for the collector. But on the other hand, what if the research that comes of it some day saves the species as their native habitat is destroyed by US. Every point made here can go both ways.

Here is my opinion, for what it is worth (maybe not much, since many here would consider me a NOOB







): the discussion and debate that takes place on this site can do nothing but benefit the hobby, the hobbyists and the fish themselves. As far as I am concerned, growth is inevitable. People are going to breed Piranhas, and there will always be someone out there who doesn't give a sh*t about anything but profits. I'm not retarded. I realize that. Let forums such as these provide balance. Let forums such as these provide an education and an understanding to everyone so as the hobby grows we are aware of the consequences and can make more intelligent, informed decisions. That is why this site is here, is it not? I know that is why I came here, and that is why I stay here. To learn about this hobby and to grow.

Lyle

P.S. In re-reading, I noticed something that I don't want to be taken the wrong way. I in no way feel that SC or Ash or Pedro or George or Frank or anybody else are in the minority group who are in it for the money. This site is frequented by people who are in the majority, who care about the fish and the hobby. The staff here do an excellent job of that and should be applauded. Although we may have different opinions (perhaps an understatement), I think we would all do well to realize that we are all on the same side.

And I apologize if it isn't as clear as it should be, it's 3:44am and I am tired.









Let the flaming commence...


----------



## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

What can a say but wow!!!! *Lyle you are very wise indeed.*

After re-reading this I can see the duality of good and evil in captive breeding. It truly brought out the best of both sides&#8230;To me personally I enjoy studying the various and the natural biotope of the piranha. I have learned so much about the plant life and terrain of many rivers and streams of South America. Breeding for knowledge is my goal. Just to see the various species spawn fascinates me beyond all. From the coloration of the eggs, to fish larvae, and finally transforming to juvenile piranhas. You may not believe this but I have actually dreamed of seeing a tank of S.Geryi at half inch. This is something few have seen. But if there is any success on my part, all members of P-fury will get exclusive pics of fry development&#8230;If there is no success, I would have seen a shoal in a captive environment which closely relates their native biotope.


----------



## nl7wq (Nov 21, 2003)

i really dont think that breeding other P's will hurt the wild market ... sure there will will be more of each type available ...but there will always be a demand and if demand a market and it will happen for wild fish ... i do think that haveing more types available will help both the hobby and the fish themself ... first off it would be better to get tank raised and bread fish to learn the fishes atributes as far as what it takes to keep them healthy and yes to eventually breed ... as someone stated above there are alot of types that are only gathered in very small patches of water ... what happens when that patch of water is either depleted of fish or something happens to poisin that small bit of water and kills all that type? then its to late to start trying to learn how to breed the few pairs that would still be available on the market ... also that would instantly make any fish of that type that are out there totally unobtainable to anyone probably at any price ... if they are ever captive bread befor such happens then we can actually breed them and even return them to the wild to grow new wild shoals from and then like the american alligater a harvest can again be done .... 
i do understand the thinking about haveing the wild version of any fish ..the very basic wild habits and feeding and such ... to me that is a great thing and well worth the extra you would pay even if the fish was grown in tanks ...the wilds will still bring the higher prices because they are wilds ... 
anyway great discussion and there are goods and bads for both thinkings , this is a discussion that has taken place probably on jsut about every type of animal that man has "domesticated" for lack of a better word ... there will always be voices both ways .... Mickey


----------



## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I am a hobbiest, not a breeder, but I wonder if SC would be as interested in breeding S. Geryi, or any other piranha for that matter if it were easily bred in captivity? From what I have read from him, I think part of the attraction is to breed what has not been bred.
Well, from my point of view, that is the same as the hobbiest liking to have fish that are not easily obtained.....it is a great feeling when you get that fish that only a handfull of people have.....Seems pretty much the same to me.


----------



## Lyle (Jan 29, 2003)

SC: thanks







but I was just making an observation


----------



## DiXoN (Jan 31, 2003)

good one lyle

anyway good argument for both sides on this one i am not going to sit on the fence a bit here but it may look like it
the only way to get a happy medium was if all the breeders of piranha had morals and this aint going to happen.
yes it will be exploited as it is a way of making money and decent money at that with regular spawns.
SC is seeing it from they way he feels and trying to do it right and being moral on the other side GG is looking at the worst case senario with evidence of course (reds and spilos)we are never going to get a happy medium with this one as it could be exploited and so far the people who have bred the cariba and terns etc fall into the moral caterory.
maybe these people wanted to remain discrete so that GG's worst case senario does not come true and if so all power too them.
it all comes down to money and it will be the determaning factor and even if piraya and geryi and the like do get bred the prices will remain high for quite a while until the market is flooded then who knows but i hope it does not come to that.
we cant stop reds being mistreated but i think GG might be thinking that stopping the piraya and other higher priced fish from the same fate by keeping the prices high and only the people willing to look after them properly will pay that sort of money.
reds belly piranha are one of the most abused fish in this industry it a shame but its down to price
dixon


----------



## Knifeman (Feb 3, 2003)

Hmmm...this is a very interesting read. From an emotional and sentimental standpoint, my feelings concurr with Nick and GG. I like having something different than the norm which can be easily aquired, and I am also pretty much sold on the idea of keeping wild caught piranhas, whether they are available as captive bred or not. However, in looking at the big picture from both the scientifist's and even the average hobbyist's perspective, I must admit that there are probably stronger arguments for the continued practice of striving to breed some of the so-called "difficult to breed" piranhas. In addition, those breeders do have the right to enjoy the challenge that they have before them, and I can see where that could bring just as much satisfaction to them as we as collectors get in viewing and enjoying our own personal tanks and fish. That said, I see no reason why we cannot continue to express our concerns in an attempt to educate unethical breeders (not at all implying that we have any that have participated in this thread), if for no other reason than to spark some thought over how irresponsible breeding could have a potentially negative effect on the fish we all enjoy.

And that, I believe, is precisely why I think that Nick created this thread in the first place... :smile:


----------



## beefer (Nov 15, 2003)

breeding is fine as long as they don't mutate or change the natural fishes that we love. I was in the lfs yesterday and saw " tuttifrutti tetras" w t f ! are these hideous things - a 1 in. transluscent tetra with some horrible neon colors along there spines - green, purple, orange, blue, etc... these things were disgusting - what a disgrace to the serious fish breeder. I am all for breeding as long as the integrity of the fish is preserved and good traits are replicated. As long as they don't mutate or destroy the natural beauty of piranhas by making them glow in the dark or posess bizarre unnatural colorations or other disfigurements. keep it as nature intended it


----------



## nl7wq (Nov 21, 2003)

hey beefer just a note ... the tutifruiti and painted and bluebeerry and several other tetras and a think several other "painted" fish are injected(yes needle) with the funny colors and i totally agree its not only stupid looking fish but really disgusting to see.... its smart in that the breeder dont have to work to make these fish breed these ugly colors just breed non colorfull fish and inject what ever color you watn ... the bad thing is that alot of these painted fir die before ever even beeing shipped ...some shortly after being shipped and alot soon after the fish is sold to an "end user" ... the ones that do live will loose the color as their body will eventually work the dyes out of thee fishes system.... anyway i think its a sick pratice but as long as the people keep buying them they will keep makeing them ...
normally a 29cent tetra is dyed and sold for $3-$6 so its profitable to try and even loose most of the fish that are dyed /painted still sick and shouldnt be supported ...just a FYI .... Mickey


----------



## STIFFY (Jul 9, 2003)

Its 1000X cooler to have a badass fish delivered right to your door that was just caught out of the river.







Just imagine If 10 years from now every piranha on the market is the 10th or so generation take bread. That would be so puss compaired to a huge wild rhom.


----------

