# New Tank and water changes



## chaddfc (Dec 29, 2009)

So Ive had my tank up and running for about 8 days now (55 gallon, Fluval 305 canister filter, Heater)..... with 2 african cichlids (Bonnie and Clyde....my wife named them heh!)to cycle the tank added on the 5th day....my ammonia lvl has already spiked to a stress lvl according to my strips i got around a .5 I was wondering how often should new tanks have the water changed??? I just did my first water change tonight ....id say about 20% of the water. and vaccumed 1/2 the gravel. Will do the other half next monday as well as another 20% water change. IF thats what is reccomended..????? once a week?? once a month??? And when do I know when the tank has finished cycling so I can order the red bellies? Also ill include some pics of the tank so you can let me know what you think....Thank you!

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## 1rhom (Nov 6, 2009)

Do not do any water changes from now on till the tank is cycled. Feed sparingly and keep an eye on params. Add some salt to help with nitrites. Once the tank is cycled you can do water changes. If you can get some filter media from an established tank it'll speed things up considerably. My lfs gave me some gravel and used sponge. You'll know when the tank is cycled when you have 0 ammonia,0 nitrite and nitrates are fine up to 40 ppm.


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## chaddfc (Dec 29, 2009)

1rhom said:


> Do not do any water changes from now on till the tank is cycled. Feed sparingly and keep an eye on params. Add some salt to help with nitrites. Once the tank is cycled you can do water changes. If you can get some filter media from an established tank it'll speed things up considerably. My lfs gave me some gravel and used sponge. You'll know when the tank is cycled when you have 0 ammonia,0 nitrite and nitrates are fine up to 40 ppm.


Yeah the gravel I got was from a friends tank, but before doing the research I rinsed it all of with hot water ): Okay so no water changes from now on......so many people say sooo many different things....argh! Ive had people say when you first setup a tank do them every week 25%........?


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## Murphy18 (Oct 17, 2008)

You're defeating the purpose of cycling your tank by doing water changes. It will take a while to cycle with just those 2 fish, you need to get the ammonia level all the way up there so your filter will be able to cope with the bio-load of you red bellies when you get them.

Firstly you should tell us more about what you plan to do, how many reds you plan on getting etc.. so we can advise you on tank space and filtration etc.. as i dont think the filtration or tank you have is even near adequate for a group of reds (assuming that is what you're getting).

Goldfish are best to cycle, but you can use a liquid ammonia solution which takes less time but i would recommend using about 10-20 goldfish and let them mess your filter right up to get alot of beneficial bacteria in your filter, no water changes, and you must get a liquid test kit as the strips can be VERY inaccurate.

Ammonia will rise, before peaking then dropping to zero, nitrites will follow, again rising then dropping to zero, resulting in nitrates. Then your cycle is complete. It generally takes about 1 month to cycle a tank, depends though.

Also read this..

http://www.piranha-fury.com/information/article.php?id=18


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## ju5tin95 (Nov 25, 2008)

use tetra safe start to help cycle your tank


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2010)

Since I have multiple tanks I never have to go through the entire "cycle" process as I just use an already established filter from an existing tank. BUT when I did have to cycle my preferred method was FISHLESS CYCLING with household ammonia. Its quite easy and in my opinion is faster than cycling with fish. You can read all about it here

Fishless Cycling


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

Murphy18 said:


> You're defeating the purpose of cycling your tank by doing water changes. It will take a while to cycle with just those 2 fish, you need to get the ammonia level all the way up there so your filter will be able to cope with the bio-load of you red bellies when you get them.
> 
> Firstly you should tell us more about what you plan to do, how many reds you plan on getting etc.. so we can advise you on tank space and filtration etc.. as i dont think the filtration or tank you have is even near adequate for a group of reds (assuming that is what you're getting).
> 
> ...


this is really good info


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## chaddfc (Dec 29, 2009)

ksls said:


> Since I have multiple tanks I never have to go through the entire "cycle" process as I just use an already established filter from an existing tank. BUT when I did have to cycle my preferred method was FISHLESS CYCLING with household ammonia. Its quite easy and in my opinion is faster than cycling with fish. You can read all about it here
> 
> Fishless Cycling


Well that would have been wonderful if I had seen this fishless cycling before buying some fish....Argh! haha.... So with these 2 african cichlids that I have should I add more?? since I obviously cant pour ammonia in with the fish right? although today when I took a reading my nitrates and nitrites were up a bit more than usual......thats a good thing right....soorrry for being a complete newbie to this cycling process....i remember the good ol days ...buy a bowl....fill with water....drop fish in. heh. Anyways thanks for all the info sooo far keep it up! Going to get a real test kit after work [email protected] these strips! haha


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

chaddfc said:


> Since I have multiple tanks I never have to go through the entire "cycle" process as I just use an already established filter from an existing tank. BUT when I did have to cycle my preferred method was FISHLESS CYCLING with household ammonia. Its quite easy and in my opinion is faster than cycling with fish. You can read all about it here
> 
> Fishless Cycling


Well that would have been wonderful if I had seen this fishless cycling before buying some fish....Argh! haha.... So with these 2 african cichlids that I have should I add more?? since I obviously cant pour ammonia in with the fish right? although today when I took a reading my nitrates and nitrites were up a bit more than usual......thats a good thing right....soorrry for being a complete newbie to this cycling process....i remember the good ol days ...buy a bowl....fill with water....drop fish in. heh. Anyways thanks for all the info sooo far keep it up! Going to get a real test kit after work [email protected] these strips! haha
[/quote]

Ya definatly stay away from strips, ..but!. for you to use as a quick alarm they are useful! for more accurate results,.. AP test kits are great, i use one.

one thing i would highly recommend, as a bac booster, to help you cycle,.. is SUPER BAC. Make sure u check expiry date though. It really stinks, and to be honest, i think its sludge from a septic tank they use, but it works. I once had a monster ammonia spike, due to my stupidy by washing a tray in my ehiem with chloronated water, as result amonia spiked and killed my fish. To get my tank started up again, i put in some of the super bac, and man, my tank cycled in 3 days to my amazement. I was a skeptic of all bacteria booster stuff, until i used that!.

Now judging by what your saying, you do have ammonia eating bacteria active. and your nitrite eating bacteria has also started, because your nitrate levels have gone up, so yes your cycle is in motion, just not well established. Add some superbac, to get more bacteria in your tank, it will help. eventually u will see ammonia and nitrite down to nothing. then do your waterchange, to bring down your nitrate, which you must do regularly!


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## chaddfc (Dec 29, 2009)

Ok so got an ACTUAL test kit and readings are as follows..... PH - 8.0-8.2 , ammonia between 1.0 and 2.0 , Nitrite 0.50 ppm , Nitrate between 0 and 5.0 ppm..... also picked up a product called Biozyme ....anyone ever used this....givin it a shot.

check it outhttp: //www.petco.com/product/3263/Aquarium-Products-Freshwater-Biozyme.aspx

anyways ..these readings look ok?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

You really should continue to do water changes since you have fish in the tank. It wont inhibit the cycle....it will just help control the ammonia and nitrite spike. I wouldnt get anything to boost your bacteria....it will double every 24 hours on its own.

What people dont realize is that when they are cycling a tank with fish in it....the fish waste continues to build way beyond the bio-load of the tank...so the cycle will last longer because bacteria will need to continue to populate to handle all of that excess waste. Once that happens....all that bacteria that is not longer needed just dies and your tank will find its balance. Unless you plan to substantially increase your bio-load immediately after the tank is cycled&#8230;.water changes will actually speed up the completion of the cycle.

For the fishless cycle...I find it funny that people will dose daily instead of just dumping in a bunch of ammonia and waiting. Until you get some nitrites...there is no need to add ammonia because there is nothing to feed. Daily dosing needs to continue to feed the bacteria....but not until it is already there.

Ammonia is more toxic at that ph level...so you will want to be sure you have enough bio-filtration to handle the load of your tank. You cant tell much from those readings without knowing how your tap water tests out so you can see what the changes are. So do a quick test on your tap water and then people can see what kind of progress you are making.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Grosse Gurke said:


> You really should continue to do water changes since you have fish in the tank. It wont inhibit the cycle....it will just help control the ammonia and nitrite spike. I wouldnt get anything to boost your bacteria....it will double every 24 hours on its own.
> 
> What people dont realize is that when they are cycling a tank with fish in it....the fish waste continues to build way beyond the bio-load of the tank...so the cycle will last longer because bacteria will need to continue to populate to handle all of that excess waste. Once that happens....all that bacteria that is not longer needed just dies and your tank will find its balance. Unless you plan to substantially increase your bio-load immediately after the tank is cycled&#8230;.water changes will actually speed up the completion of the cycle.
> 
> ...


A boost with superbac will work, iv tested it, along with other people i know who have used it. Some people believe some people dont. Bacteria is bacteria, all your doing is introducing more to populate the filter. It doesnt do any harm.

Also the fish creating a huge bio-load is not in every case and prolonging cycle is not in every case, there are some who can get a tank cycled in 3 days, some in 2 mths? usually the tanks that take time are the ones who dont add anything to boost benificial bacteria, and use the air you breath to populate the tank of benificial bacteria,(yes bacteria is even in the air and dust). , go to your lfs ask for some media, superbac,... etc more benificial bacteria does no harm, it can only help you.

As for dumping a whole wack of ammonia in the tank,... opposed to daily and slowly to allow the ammonia eating bacteria to populate,... unless you like the smell of piss,... i wouldnt recommend that. Hense why alot of people will do it little bit at a time.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

italianstylzzz said:


> A boost with superbac will work, iv tested it, along with other people i know who have used it. Some people believe some people dont. Bacteria is bacteria, all your doing is introducing more to populate the filter. It doesnt do any harm.


I was not saying there is any harm in adding this product...just that if he already has bacteria present there isnt much need because bacteria...once established....multiplies at a very quick rate.


> Also the fish creating a huge bio-load is not in every case and prolonging cycle is not in every case, there are some who can get a tank cycled in 3 days, some in 2 mths? usually the tanks that take time are the ones who dont add anything to boost benificial bacteria, and use the air you breath to populate the tank of benificial bacteria,(yes bacteria is even in the air and dust). , go to your lfs ask for some media, superbac,... etc more benificial bacteria does no harm, it can only help you.


Not sure what you are trying to say here. I can get a tank cycled in the time it takes to fill it up by transfering one of my already cycled filters to the tank.


> As for dumping a whole wack of ammonia in the tank,... opposed to daily and slowly to allow the ammonia eating bacteria to populate,... unless you like the smell of piss,... i wouldnt recommend that. Hense why alot of people will do it little bit at a time.


The reason people do daily drops is to simulate a continual bio-load...not to reduce the smell.








Dumping 1/8 a cup of ammonia into a 125 gallon tank will not smell...the ppm is too low. All you are trying to do is get your ammonia up to about 10ppm....so it is probably even less then that. Ammonia will evaporate at the same rate as your water...so the ppm will stay the same until it is consumed by the bacteria. Then you just test every few days to see if you are registering nitrites or nitrates...once that starts...you can start with the daily drops to build up your bacteria to the level of you need for your fish.


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## chaddfc (Dec 29, 2009)

Grosse Gurke said:


> You really should continue to do water changes since you have fish in the tank. It wont inhibit the cycle....it will just help control the ammonia and nitrite spike. I wouldnt get anything to boost your bacteria....it will double every 24 hours on its own.
> 
> What people dont realize is that when they are cycling a tank with fish in it....the fish waste continues to build way beyond the bio-load of the tank...so the cycle will last longer because bacteria will need to continue to populate to handle all of that excess waste. Once that happens....all that bacteria that is not longer needed just dies and your tank will find its balance. Unless you plan to substantially increase your bio-load immediately after the tank is cycled&#8230;.water changes will actually speed up the completion of the cycle.
> 
> ...


I was told to NOT do any water changes until the tank is cycled....urgh! anyways im gonna give it a few days and see what happens with the readings. Ill test my tap water tonight and try to post the readings.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

chaddfc said:


> I was told to NOT do any water changes until the tank is cycled....urgh! anyways im gonna give it a few days and see what happens with the readings. Ill test my tap water tonight and try to post the readings.


I know.....I was told the same thing when I started getting into water chemistry. But if you think about it...that doesnt make sense.

Say you have 5 fish in the tank and each produces 1ppm of waste per day. Thats 5ppm of bio-load your filtration needs to handle in order to have a cycled tank.

So lets make this example a 17 day cycle:

Day 1 through 10 your fish create 50ppm of ammonia and the bacteria consumes zero..end result:
Ammonia = 50ppm, NitrIte = 0ppm, NitrAte = 0ppm
Day 11-12 your fish create 10 ppm ammonia and the bacteria consumes 10ppm ammonia...end result:
Ammonia = 50ppm, NitrIte = 10ppm, NitrAte = 0ppm
Day 13 your fish create 5ppm ammonia..initial bacteria consumes 20ppm ammonia and 5ppm nitrites...end result:
Ammonia=35ppm, NitrIte=25ppm, NitrAte=5ppm
Day 14 your fish create 5ppm ammonia...bacteria consumes 40ppm ammonia and 10ppm nitrItes...end result:
Ammonia = 0, NitrIte = 55ppm, Nitrate = 15ppm
Day 15 your fish create 5ppm ammonia...bacteria consumes 5ppm ammonia and 20ppm nitrItes...end result:
Ammonia = 0, NitrIte = 40ppm, Nitrate = 35ppm
Day 16 your fish create 5ppm ammonia...bacteria consumes 5ppm ammonia and 40ppm nitrItes...end result:
Ammonia = 0, NitrIte = 5ppm, Nitrate = 75ppm
Day 17 your are fully cycled...end result...nitrAtes at 85 and a 50ppm ammonia spike and a 55ppm nitrIte spike....both of which could have been much less by doing small daily water changes. There is never a need to let your ammonia ppm get higher then the bio-load of the tank.

Here is what it would it may have looked like with small daily water changes and the&#8230;which stop once the bacteria shows up&#8230;and bacteria colonizing at the same rate:

Day 1 through 10 your fish create 50ppm of ammonia and the bacteria consumes zero..end result:
Ammonia = 25ppm, NitrIte = 0, NitrAte = 0
Day 11-12 your fish create 10 ppm ammonia and the bacteria consumes 10ppm ammonia...end result:
Ammonia = 25ppm, NitrIte = 10ppm, NitrAte = 0ppm
Day 13 your fish create 5ppm ammonia..initial bacteria consumes 20ppm ammonia and 5ppm nitrites...end result:
Ammonia=10ppm, NitrIte=30ppm, NitrAte=5ppm
Day 14 your fish create 5ppm ammonia...bacteria consumes 40ppm ammonia and 10ppm nitrItes...end result:
Ammonia = 0ppm, NitrIte = 35ppm, Nitrate = 15ppm
Day 15 your fish create 5ppm ammonia...bacteria consumes 5ppm ammonia and 20ppm nitrItes...end result:
Ammonia = 0, NitrIte = 20ppm, Nitrate = 35ppm
Day 16 your fish create 5ppm ammonia...bacteria consumes 5ppm ammonia and 40ppm nitrItes...end result:
Ammonia = 0, NitrIte = 0ppm, Nitrate = 60ppm

So the end result is an ammonia spike of 25ppm...not 50ppm...and a nitrite spike of 35ppm...not 55ppm. Your tank also cycled in one less day and has enough bacteria to handle your bio-load.


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## italianstylzzz (Sep 25, 2008)

Ive never had to do a water change until it fully cycled. and it went fine, its all trial and error, its part of the hobby, do what works for you, all i can tell u is what worked for me. Superbac, and a source of ammonia, bacteria is your friend. all my startups flew right through from scratch within a week every time. And never once had it failed, although superbac did it in 3 days, all other times was with used media.

And comment to the ammonia in small amounts not smelling,... it does smell, depending on your strength of ammonia. smaller continous adding of ammonia is less likely to smell. And feeds the bacteria as per opposed to loading it to the max.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

italianstylzzz said:


> Ive never had to do a water change until it fully cycled. and it went fine, its all trial and error, its part of the hobby, do what works for you, all i can tell u is what worked for me. Superbac, and a source of ammonia, bacteria is your friend. all my startups flew right through from scratch within a week every time. And never once had it failed, although superbac did it in 3 days, all other times was with used media.


I am not saying you need to do a water change...I am just saying it wont delay the cycle and it is in the best interest of the fish if you are starting a new tank with the fish you plan to keep. 


> And comment to the ammonia in small amounts not smelling,... it does smell, depending on your strength of ammonia. smaller continous adding of ammonia is less likely to smell. And feeds the bacteria as per opposed to loading it to the max.


You get to the same ppm no matter if you add a few drops a day...or just dump it in. I dont think there is a difference in ammonia strength when you use pure ammonia...which is what you should use to cycle the tank.


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

Italianstylzz, your compulsive obsession to contradict and critically analyse everything GG says is starting to get creepy...

Especially when you're persistently misinterpreting what he actually says...

No one is stopping you from providing your insight but if this persists an intervention will be needed...


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## chaddfc (Dec 29, 2009)

So did another water test today....its been since last friday I believe....and readings are bout exactly the same..... this is 14th day since the tank has been set up. and readings are as follows
Ph remains the same 8.0-8.2, Ammonia inbetween 1.0 and 2.0 ppm, Nitrite 0.50 ppm , and Nitrate did go up a lil almost 5.0 ppm. As stated before only have 2 african cichlids in my 55 gallon, Filtration fluval 305. Are these readings normal and is there a way to kick this up a notch?? Should I have more than 2 fish for the cycle? water changes?? Give me some input. thank you! Oh water is a lil cloudy right now also if that means anything.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

The whole idea of the cycle is to build up enough bacteria to handle your tanks bio-load. I dont know what you are planning to keep...but I would assume it will be more then the bio-load these two fish produce if it a piranha. Since the cycle is already started....I would wait until you are showing zero ammonia....then I would go get some feeders to start building your bacteria colony before you get your permanent fish. If you dont...you will have an ammonia and nitrite spike when you get your fish. It is always better to have too much bacteria then not enough.


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## chaddfc (Dec 29, 2009)

Grosse Gurke said:


> The whole idea of the cycle is to build up enough bacteria to handle your tanks bio-load. I dont know what you are planning to keep...but I would assume it will be more then the bio-load these two fish produce if it a piranha. Since the cycle is already started....I would wait until you are showing zero ammonia....then I would go get some feeders to start building your bacteria colony before you get your permanent fish. If you dont...you will have an ammonia and nitrite spike when you get your fish. It is always better to have too much bacteria then not enough.


Ok so wait til ammonia reaches zero then buy some feeder goldfish....(how many for 55 gallon tank) and once I do get the feeders what do I wait for after that....another cycle?? I am using a bacteria booster called Biozyme says it helps boost the biological process and break down organic buildup.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Once your ammonia reaches zero....you have all the bacteria in place. It is now just allowing it to multiply to the amount needed to handle the bio-load of your tank. I would probably get 10 feeders or so.

I dont know anything about biozyme....so I dont know if it will help or not. If it contains bacteria...you might want to add the feeders before you add the stuff. It will just die off if there is no ammonia source...and two african cichlids is not much of a bio-load in a 55 gallon tank.


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## the keeper (Jan 16, 2010)

i add biozyme and the next day i add feeders, works for me, and speeds up my cycling alot.i just hate putting feeders in, but i do take enough out when i do put my fish in so it doesnt overload the tank, and whats left they can eat, because it will be along time before they have another(dont feed live) plus i dont put my p's health on the line, by leting them eat crappy goldfish. peace


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## chaddfc (Dec 29, 2009)

the keeper said:


> i add biozyme and the next day i add feeders, works for me, and speeds up my cycling alot.i just hate putting feeders in, but i do take enough out when i do put my fish in so it doesnt overload the tank, and whats left they can eat, because it will be along time before they have another(dont feed live) plus i dont put my p's health on the line, by leting them eat crappy goldfish. peace


yeah ive also heard not to feed your piranhas the feeders ....so do you just remove them from the tank when youre done with them and pitch em or??? And once my tank is cycled and I add the 10 feeders to the tank ....how long do I keep them in there....how do I know when the tanks bio load is ready?


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