# AMMONIA 8.0!!! SOS!



## Kyle2154

I am having some difficulty with my piranha (both caribe and reds) turning white on their under belly. I don't know how serious this is, but every time I do a water change the color will come back within 25 minutes or so. It has been no less then a day since I did a 10% water change (which brought them out of their white stage) and a few of them are very white. They will still eat when they get like this.

Tank parameters:

- 3 x 350 penguin filters
- 135 gallon tank
- Beef/Salmon/Tuna/Worms - Diet
- Water is crystal clear
- 78 degree temperature

Kyle


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## 2PiRaNhA~2FuRrY

just normal color change when do water change...especaily reds...it seem to change color here and there turning black, red,etc....sound like you on the right track what you got there..but it look like you got over crowed your tank with 9 pygo...it maybe look ok.but135g...would be 4-5max pygo..but that just me. good luck


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## taylorhedrich

Those are the tank stats, we need to know the real tank parameters, such as the measures of the nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia levels.

I will move this to the correct forum, since this seems like it could easily be a water chemistry issue.
~Taylor~

_*Topic Moved to Water Chemistry Forum*_


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## the REASON

sounds like its only stress, but i would check your water params just incase.


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## Kyle2154

I measured my PH level yesterday and Alls I know for sure was that is was somewhere 6.5 and 7.5. It's difficult to tell just comparing three colors on a strip, but my sweet digital one was f*ing broke, and I don't feel like buying another one. The water from my tap is the exact same as that in tank 6.5 and 7.5. should I go back and buy the strips that test Ammonia??? what should I check next. These piranha are so white it looks like they are old men or something, its really odd.

Kyle

Let me reiterate sp? that they are very bright red AFTER the water change, but 24 hours later they will turn a little white and stay that way for some time, I don't know if they will go back to red or not because I panic and do a water change to get them BACK to red.


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## nswhite

Maybe the P's are stressed you need to get a ammonia, nitrite and nitrate test kit not the strips the aquarium pharmiciticals one with test vial and droppers or one similar. Test the water and then let us know you may be having a water issue so the sooner the better.


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## Kyle2154

Those master test kits only do like 1 or 2 tests per subject don't they. The one at pet co came with like 2 10 ml bottles for ph and 1 for everything else, and you had to use the whole bottle or something like that to do the test, so I bought the test strips instead.

Kyle


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## Leasure1

No, you only use a few drops from each bottle of liquid. They do atleast 90 tests per kit. Strips are for the birds, and I find that they read crapy, and half the time the readings you want to take are not even offered on the strip.


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## nswhite

Ya definitally do not buy the strips they are worthless. I replied to your PM. But you need to get a kit that test like 50 or 90 which ever it is. I've never heard of ones you can only use once. But take your water down to you local fish store (LFS) and ask them to test it they should test it for free. Good luck and I will stay around so if you have more question you can ask them here in your thread. Or PM it dosent really matter good way to get my attention.


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## Kyle2154

I went and bought a master test kit and performed the following tests:

PH ~ 6.1
Ammonia ~ 8.0
Nitrate ~ 20
Nitrite - 0

Please let me know what to do about PH and Ammonia!

Kyle


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## nswhite

Well you r amonia is high so thats why your P's are acting like that. It looks like your tank isnt finished cycling yet. I would try and find some Bio-Spira from your LFS that might help. Plus if you do 25% water change add some de-chlorinator to the water and just a little aquarium salt and you will just have to see what happens.


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## Kyle2154

I have to go to work now, PLEASE leave more feedback guys. Everything seems acceptable except for Ammonia. Could it be the NON-toxic ammonia. I add Start right every time I add water, and there is a tabelspoon of salt for every 5 gallons, Ill pick up some bio spira tonight or tomorrow morning, anything else??

Kyle


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## nswhite

Just the faster the better try to get off of work early so you can take care of your P's you dont want to lose any of them. Do you have another tank you can put your P's in for a couple days?


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## Kyle2154

BUMP!

Going to pet supplies at 11:00 a.m. tomorrow, p's looking better, any other suggetions on what to get?

Please guys, some of the p's look worse then others, for some reason the caribe look fine.

Kyle


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## Kyle2154

Kyle2154 said:


> BUMP!
> 
> Going to pet supplies at 11:00 a.m. tomorrow, p's looking better, any other suggetions on what to get?
> 
> Please guys, some of the p's look worse then others, for some reason the caribe look fine.
> 
> Kyle


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## Trigga

WATER CHANGES!! holy smokes thats a high ph...did u cycle the tank?


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## nswhite

Trigga said:


> WATER CHANGES!! holy smokes thats a high ph...did u cycle the tank?


The pH is at 6.1 I dont think thats to high. P's like it a little acidic. My tank is at 6.4 no problems. I thought his ammonia was high at 8.0ppm thats off the chart. its probably even higher than that. I would say the pH is fine as long as its not flucuating. IMO


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## Kyle2154

Ammonia has me stressing out. I just got back from the store, they did not have Bio Spira, so I picked up a bottle of AmQuel and Ammo Lock. I added 60 ml of Amquel just now...which is one standard dose for 120 gallons. Every does is supposed to lower ammonia by more than 1.2 ppm, and you are aloud to do a dose every 24 hours (safely). So I am going to put Amquel to the test first and retest Ammonia in 5 days to see if there is a difference. I'll turn this topic into a review on AmQuel+

Kyle

If it doesn't work I'll just switch over to Ammo Lock to detoxify it and pursue Bio Spira more vigourously


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## Tinkerbelle

no niTRITE but 20ppm of niTRATE? and 8ppm of Ammonia? Those tests don't make much sense... Are you sure you're leaving the solutions sit for the correct ammount of time and shaking/agitating them properly?

Ideally here is how a cycle goes:

Ammonia rises and then peaks
As ammonia declines, nitrites rise
Nitrites peak
As nitrites declines, nitrates rise
Nitrates peak and become the only thing that should appear prevolent. May be as high as 120ppm!

You then do a very large, 50% sometimes more, water change to bring it under 40ppm, ideally 20ppm or less.

How much are you feeding the fish. It sounds like the cycle can't keep up with the bioload perhaps? I missed it probably, but how many fish are in this tank, & sizes?

Your pH is absolutely fine. Piranha are fish from rivers that have loads of plantlife around them, and due to natural foliage decay, tend to like slightly tannic, soft & acidic water. The ammonia is a bit of a worry but i'd definately drop it with frequent water changes rather than amquel and ammolock (which I believe can mess with the overall cycle)


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## Kyle2154

From what I have read it is a given that nitrite should always be zero, and that nitrate under 40 was fine...I believe that is correct, so I should be in the clear there. I concur with what people have said about my PH as well, in that it is ok. I did the Ammonia test again late late last night just to verify and it was dark green after 3 minutes...I'm supposed to let it sit for 5. The test included me filling the test tube with 5 ml of aquarium water, adding 8 drops from ammonia bottle 1 and then 8 drops from ammonia bottle 2, shaking and waiting for 5 minutes.

Kyle

I added a 'rounded tablespoon' for every 5 gallons of my tank about 2 weeks ago. I wanted to add it because the guy recommended it. The back of the box told me to follow the 'rounded tablespoon' for every 5 gallons rule. That means I had added over 20 rounded tablespoons to my tank, is that wayyyy tooo much? could that have caused this problem? I have not added any since and I have probably removed 150% of the water since those 2 weeks ago, should I add more? should it be a tablespoon for every 5 gallons?

What will help ammonia concerning salt? what will hurt ammonia concerning salt? does salt effect ammonia at all?


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## barbianj

Well, it is kind of weird that you have some nitrates and no no nitrites. It would seem that you have or had a cycled tank. It may be possible that you did something to kill off your nitrifying bacteria or have a good deal of rotting food in there. 8.0 is pretty high, so something is way out of wack. Amquel or ammo lock will do the job. I think Amquel+ and Prime will also reduce your nitrites, but I have not seen this for myself. Watch out for a nitrite spike after the ammonia level drops. Reduce feedings until you are in the clear.


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## Leasure1

Could be worse than 8.0, due to the fact that the test only reads to 8.0. It could very well be 10.0 huh? And the fish will more than likely have hella ammonia burn if you don't get some ammo-lock or something to tie your tank over till it's cycled. Do you have other tanks you can switch a filter with, or do a good bacteria seeding. Ammonia that high, and it's hard for the tank to even cycle properly. You should do some huge water changes to keep your fish alive.


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## dmopar74

i think the best way to quickly reduce the problem is large 75% daily or more water changes until all reads well- not adding more chemichals. once ur params are back to normal dont overfeed and do weekly 50% w/c's. you might not have to do such large w/c's but it helps ensure good quality water.


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## Kyle2154

I put in some Ammo Lock last night, and added another dose of AmQuel+ this morning. I hate using so many chemicals but at least AmQuel+ is supposed to lower both Nitrates, Nitrites and Ammonia. I am going to do a 30% water change in about an hour and then retest everything tonight. lets see what Amquel can do









Kyle


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## AdamB

Kyle2154 said:


> - Beef/Salmon/Tuna/Worms - Diet


i was understanding that red/pink fish was going to add pollution to the water. The beef too...

Just thought id add my bit..

Adam


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## nswhite

AdamB said:


> - Beef/Salmon/Tuna/Worms - Diet


i was understanding that red/pink fish was going to add pollution to the water. The beef too...

Just thought id add my bit..

Adam
[/quote]

Why does that matter? Ya certain fish put off more pollution in the water but whats your point. Thats not even what this topics about. Dont post just to get posts if your not going to say something that helps that is on the topic than dont bother saying anything. Sorry Kyle2154 didnt mean to de-rail your thread just get sick of people posting just for the sake of posting and not trying to help out. That AdamB probably wont even follow thia thread anyway. Most people dont.

But hows everything going with the ammonia? keep us updated so we can help. Have you been doing 25% water changes like every other day until the ammonia's under control.


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## Malok

> Why does that matter? Ya certain fish put off more pollution in the water but whats your point. Thats not even what this topics about. Dont post just to get posts if your not going to say something that helps that is on the topic than dont bother saying anything. Sorry Kyle2154 didnt mean to de-rail your thread just get sick of people posting just for the sake of posting and not trying to help out. That AdamB probably wont even follow thia thread anyway. Most people dont.
> 
> But hows everything going with the ammonia? keep us updated so we can help. Have you been doing 25% water changes like every other day until the ammonia's under control.


he did have a little point
a good fish seller doesnt feed thier fish the day before or couple days before shipping this is to reduce the amonia left in the water a higher protien food produces more amonia if your p's look fat i wouldnt feed them for a few days as well since they can go weeks without eating this way they wont contribute even more amonia to your problem

Did you just increase the # of p's in there it might be a recycle due to an increase bioload and since the tank is heavily stocked your filters might not be able to handle it


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## AdamB

nswhite said:


> - Beef/Salmon/Tuna/Worms - Diet


i was understanding that red/pink fish was going to add pollution to the water. The beef too...

Just thought id add my bit..

Adam
[/quote]

Why does that matter? Ya certain fish put off more pollution in the water but whats your point. Thats not even what this topics about. Dont post just to get posts if your not going to say something that helps that is on the topic than dont bother saying anything. Sorry Kyle2154 didnt mean to de-rail your thread just get sick of people posting just for the sake of posting and not trying to help out. That AdamB probably wont even follow thia thread anyway. Most people dont.

But hows everything going with the ammonia? keep us updated so we can help. Have you been doing 25% water changes like every other day until the ammonia's under control.
[/quote]

nswhite, It does matter you f*cking RETARD. AND I AM FOLLOWING this thread. It is valid, he stated WHAT he was putting in the water, and it is VERY polluting. and WILL f*ck up the water conditions. It was not meant as a solution, but as an idea as to what may be causing the problem.

And as for being sick of people posting just to post, why dont you bitch at people how do stupid sh*t like repeat statements for no other purpose but to add posts to their count. I have no time to waste doing that.

and as far as I'm concerned, 25% 3-4 times a week is going to make things worse by removing too much good bacteria...

Kyle2154 , all im saying is you should look @ your feeding .


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## Kyle2154

First off I just retested my water. I was going to do a 30% water change last night but I am terribly ill, I will do one sometime today though. The test results for today were:

Ammonia ~ 8.0
Nitrate ~ 20
Nitrite - 0
PH ~ 6.0 - 6.1

Exact same results as Saturday.

I have been adding AmQuel and Ammo Lock everyday. Today will be a huge water change followed by at least a 20% again tomorrow. I will retest thursday.

I appreciate those of you following this thread, I need help obviously since ammonia is maintaining such a high level. My biggest mistake is that I haven't done a real water change since about friday, since I have been partying and sick. I will do one today. Not much can be said on my part, I check this thread once an hour. I am open to any suggestions before I retest on thursday, which is when I will retest.

I have taken the follwing steps (summary):

- Tested Saturday and Today, results were exactly the same stated above.

- Reduced feeding from everyday to everyother day

- Added Amquel+ and Ammo Lock everyday since and including sunday.

Considering:

- Finding and addig Bio Spira

- An undergravel Filter

Kyle


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## JustJoshinYa

I would not add an undergravel filter as they tend to trap food particles and waste only increasing your ammonia and nitrate levels, i would just do water changes and cut back on feedings until your parameters are ideal and let the tank adjust itself. and AdamB made a very good point nswhite, BTW you could have sent adamb a pm but chose to rant in this thread...only to increase your post count?? maybe??
-Josh


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## AdamB

JustJoshinYa said:


> I would not add an undergravel filter as they tend to trap food particles and waste only increasing your ammonia and nitrate levels, i would just do water changes and cut back on feedings until your parameters are ideal and let the tank adjust itself. * and AdamB made a very good point nswhite, BTW you could have sent adamb a pm but chose to rant in this thread...only to increase your post count?? maybe??*
> -Josh


BINGO.


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## Kyle2154

I thought the purpose of an undergravel filter was to pull the water down through the bed of whatever has formed and reduce ammonia and then carry the water back out via air bubbles?

Wouldn't vacuuming the undergravel filter take out the food particles?

Adam does make a good point, however I do do a good job of getting out particles that are not eaten and normally all food is consumed. I don't know whether or not fish waste is somehow more toxic depending on what they have eaten, but nswhite has been more then helpful, so lets just all get along guys. My question for adam would be:

If all the beef heart and salmon/tuna is eliminated, whether eaten or netted out, how is it more toxic? through the piranha waste?

Kyle

- Just performed 33% water change
- Made sure I was doing ammonia test correctly by testing the ammonia from the TAP and it tested 0 ppm so my tank is a legitimate 8.0... *sigh


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## Kyle2154

Sorry for these posts, my computer fricked up on me and I kept pressing 'add reply' and boom 4 posts, my appology

Please see post above

Kyle


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## Kyle2154

Accidental Posts


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## Kyle2154

Accidental Posts


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## nswhite

Kyle2154 said:


> I have taken the follwing steps (summary):
> 
> - Tested Saturday and Today, results were exactly the same stated above.
> 
> - Reduced feeding from everyday to everyother day
> 
> - Added Amquel+ and Ammo Lock everyday since and including sunday.
> 
> Considering:
> 
> - Finding and addig Bio Spira
> 
> - An undergravel Filter
> 
> Kyle


Looks like you are doing everything you can its just a waiting game. Keep doing what you are doing, keep up on water changes. I would also stay away from the undergravel filter (ugf) they can sometimes create problems. I know you have the 3 filters when is the last time you gave them a good rinse? I would if you have not already. I would do one a week or so cause you dont want to do them all at the same time. But rinse the filter and filter media in tank water set aside in a bucket or something you dont want to clean it with tap water. The media is the most important part make sure when cleaning that it dosent dry out. I'm wondering if maybe there is some left over food or something caught in the filters. Let us know what you find.


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## Kyle2154

excellent idea I will shut down 1 filter a day and take it down and clean it...Now I obviously cannot put the bio-wheels in anything other then tank water...so step by step should be:

- Unplug filter
- Empty filter
- place both wheels in five-gallon bucket filled with tank water
- take out regular filters and place them in the same five gallon bucket
- check over the filter and make sure no junk is in there
- put everything back together
- fill up filter with tank water
- plug back in

let me know if any of that is wrong...if not I will do 1 on weds 1 on thurs and 1 on fri.

- kyle

By the way...I have been reading about other types of filters that attack ammonia and chemicals better then a standard power filter. Filters like Undergravel and canister have been mentioned to me. Now that we have ruled out a ugf, would it help to put in a canister...something around 200-400 gallons an hour. My 3 penguins are already pumping 1050 so I thought I was okay but the filter on that canister could put a hurting on Ammonia couldn't it, and if not, what kind of filter could?


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## barbianj

Don't kill yourself trying to do too many water changes. With the ammo lock in the ammonia will not be harmful, but it will read high. The nitrifying bacteria attatch to objects and create a bio film. They do not float around in the water. Water changes should not harm the bacteria unless you do not remove the chlorine, which is put in there to kill....bacteria. Nitrate at 20 would indicate that your tank was cycled. Now it is out of cycle and an excess of ammonia is being introduced. Would it be easier to make massive amounts of water changes to dilute the ammonia EVERY DAY, or find the source of ammonia. If you do a big water change, and the ammonia level goes right back up, ammonia was added. Are you absolutely sure that there are not rotting worms or food stuck somewhere???


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## Kyle2154

You aren't going to believe this, though it won't suprise you. I retested just now just to see what Ammonia has dipped to after a 33% water change...it hasn't. It is at 8.0 still

What in the world is happening...there can't be something rotting in the gravel, i've been gravel vacuuming and whipping gravel all over the tank and clearing out all little-baby-itsy-witsy particles all day in my 33% change. The filters have to hold the answer.

I am going to go through the filters right now, stay tuned....

Kyle


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## Kyle2154

Okay all filters were taken apart and examined in the sink. First of all my filters (not the bio-wheels the regular filters) are very very dirty, I will have to replace them, it has been almost a month anyways. There were some nasty smelly chunks of what must have been some kind of meat. There weren't a ton of them, but if you totaled up all the little pieces that were stuck to the filter pads it was probably the size of a golf ball in total...would this cause such a HUGE ammonia problem???

Kyle

The Piranha look about as bad as ever, the only ones that look average are the caribe, the reds are all white, they are suffering.


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## barbianj

Oh, yeah. That would do it. The problem is where the stinky is. If you ever smell something funky, you need to get at it ASAP.


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## Kyle2154

ok, now that its out, how long before I see results?


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## zorro13

I am having the exact same problem. I did a water change today and my ammonia is still around 7. I have been adding ammolock to try and keep the effects of the ammonia at bay. And no, I do not have any rotting food since my pets have not eaten in over a week or so. I did a post yesterday because I literally had no kh value and of course someone siad that it was imposssible to have no value and quite frankly unless they are testing my water they do not know that. I used 2 kits and both picked up no reading. I did a 30% water change today and my kh is about 30ppm but that's the best I can get. This ammonia thing is freaking me out because it makes no sense. I used the salicylate test method and it showed no difference. I hope you can resolve this problem as I know exactly how you feel. I am not an absolute idiot so I do have some knowledge on how to treat my water but I cannot figure this one out.

Good luck


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## SAFETYpin

I guess my posts werent really on topic sorry for the HIjack.


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## SAFETYpin

I guess my posts werent really on topic sorry for the HIjack.


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## Kyle2154

I just changed all six filters (again the regular ones not the wheels), it certainly should do something they were all black, nasty, and smelled bad. I tested ammonia before hand and to no suprise it is still 8.0. I am assuming it should take time to lower ammonia it would be nice to see some progress though. since the tank is cycled 8 times an hour I will wait til tomorrow night ~ 30 hours from now, when the tank has been cycled roughly 240 times and test again. Should ammonia at least be down a little by then??

Kyle


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## nswhite

Good we finally figured out were the ammonia is coming from. Well since everything is good and clean I would add a little of the ammo lock and some aquarium salt just to help with the stress its putting on your P's unless you already did. But now just keep doing daily water changes unitl the ammonia starts to drop. I'm thinking that your ammonia level is extremely high off the charts so it may take a couple weeks for everything to level out. Your tank was starting to go through a mini cycle. Just keep waiting its not going to get any worse since we think we found the problem. I will not be back online tonight but tommorrow I will follow up. Good luck. And I see you a extra tank if you think your P's are going to die than put them in the empty tank you have. Talk to you tommorrow


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## Kyle2154

I performed another water change just now, I would guess somewhere around 11 to 14%

I also tested ammonia again, because I am bored...still 8.0

Obviously ammonia must be dropping some since I am adding 0ppm ammonia water from the tap, is there anyway to figure out what ammonia is at.

My test involves filling a test tube to 5ml, which is premarked, with tank water. Now the test tube could probably hold 8 ml easily. I am then supposed to add 8 drops from bottle #1 and then 8 drops from bottle #2. The card has 7 different colors ranging from light yellow to extremely dark green. My green is much darker, you can tell my ammonia is higher then 8.0.

Can I determine from what I have how much higher my ammonia is. For example, could I maybe add 4 drops from each bottle (1/2 the test amount) compare the color results and then double it??? or does mathematics not work with these???

It is very frustrating to just know it is this amount somewhere over 8 and thats where it remains

The fish do appear to be doing better, the caribe have been doing much better then the reds all along, but even the reds seem slightly better.

Kyle


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## PygoFanatic

I had a similar problem when I started out. I knew nothing about cycling and ended up killing some expensive fish. After the fish died, I didnt do anything about the ammonia, hoping the tank would cycle through it. Well, my patience ended up getting the best of me after a couple months and I just decided to tear the tank down and set it back up again. This could be a scenario you are headed towards.

A couple suggestions...

First, I dont see any point in testing your water right after a water change. You should be testing before water changes to see if you need to do one. If you test your water afterwards, your readings may be off a bit. Also, dont kill yourself over whether the ammonia is at 8.0 or 10.0. Either one of those readings is fatally toxic to fish. You need to do water changes water changes water changes. Also, I think Tink hit on something when she said that those chemicals might negatively affect the cycle. Those chemicals that detoxify ammonia may be turning the ammonia into something that is useless for your cycling purposes. Also, when you say your tank cycled 300+ times each day or whatever...you are using the wrong terminology. Your tank water is turning over (called turnover rate). Your tank cycling is in reference to your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings.

Moral of the story...even if you dont feel like doing them...water changes are the way to go. Of course changing the water will slow the cycle down just like those chemicals, but if you stay on top of them, your water should never get as toxic as it is now, until one day your tank is cycled.

Also, if youre planning on doing water changes on a daily or every other day basis, Im not sure how affective adding biospira will be. In my eyes, if you add biospira and then turn around and do a 50% water change (which is what I would do), you are effectively taking some of that good bacteria out of your tank and essentially wasting your money.

Oh yeah, and the white stuff you see all over them is called ammonia burn. Im not sure of the best meds to use to treat ammonia burn, but for the love of your fish, keep doing water changes.


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## barbianj

I had a very similar problem that you have now. I was doing water changes like mad, but it didn't do squat. IMO, in this situation, water changes are a bandaid to the real problem. My problem did not go away until I found the source of the problem, which is usually rotting fish or shrimp. Then after 2 or 3 days, the ammonia dropped and then the nitrite spiked for 2 or 3 days, then everything leveled out. Without the Ammo Lock, your fish would be dead. I never let food into the filters. Poo is one thing, but you cannot let flesh rot in your filters. Ever. Your filter is not a compost pit, it should take care of your fishes excrement. I check my filters by smell. If it stinks, clean it before you have a major problem.


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## Kyle2154

So do I let the piranha's under belly stay white and not add the Ammo Lock. Or do I add the Ammo Lock but risk not cycling the tank. I think I should point out the decorations in my tank, I have a fifth of vodka and a fifth of Patron in there along with a piece of wood. When I sunk the vodka bottle is was rinsed and cleaned, when I sunk the Patron bottle it wasn't clean but was empty. These bottles have been sitting in there for some time now, almost a month, these wouldn't cause a spike would they? Glass and labels on bottles don't have adverse effects on Ammonia do they?

Kyle

If I do not see an improvement I think I am going to perfom a massive water change, like 60% along with taking out all gravel and fixtures, bare tank except for filters...good idea?? My gravel is very thick on bottom, like 2-3" or more in a lot of places, even though there might not be a huge chunk I'm wondering if there are just a bagillion little pieces all throughout. My case for removal. I could take out everything for a couple weeks.


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## Kyle2154

The tank seems a little cloudy this morning, not extremely cloudy but a little, like 10%. Is this good? Is this bacteria forming? The piranha are fighting very intently including the reds, in fact an all out brawl just broke out and actually had me walking up to the tank and tapping on the glass to break it up. Coloration on all the fish look good, but this could just be from the ammo lock I am adding. Are those two signs (activity and coloration) good signs?

Just a few more questions for you guys...









Kyle

I am going to pick up some raw shrimp (grey) and catfish today, I hear those are better options then their current diet.


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## nswhite

Kyle2154 said:


> The tank seems a little cloudy this morning, not extremely cloudy but a little, like 10%. Is this good? Is this bacteria forming? The piranha are fighting very intently including the reds, in fact an all out brawl just broke out and actually had me walking up to the tank and tapping on the glass to break it up. Coloration on all the fish look good, but this could just be from the ammo lock I am adding. Are those two signs (activity and coloration) good signs?
> 
> Just a few more questions for you guys...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kyle
> 
> I am going to pick up some raw shrimp (grey) and catfish today, I hear those are better options then their current diet.


It sounds like your on the right track. You might be having a bacteria bloom just keep doing water changes daily or every other day. The tank is most likley going to cycle. if your Nitrites start to show up on the tests than you know the tank is cycling. I thought you had the tank cycled already, and then you found the left over food in the filters so that makes me think that your tank is going through a mini cycle. How long has the tank been set-up? I would keep adding the ammo lock your ammonia is off the charts acording to your tests results so that high of ammonia can kill your P's the ammo lock is giving your P's a little relief. Your P's are probably extremely stressed so that is making them aggressive. If you want you can turn the heat down a couple degress to help with aggression.

And about the diet you can give shrimp that should be a staple food for your P's you should get them raw with the shells on the shells have a vitamin in them thats good for your P's color. I also like to feed talipia, Live ghost shrimp. you can feed beef heart and the other things you were feeding but just once or twice a month there is a very good article in the information section that talks specifically about what types of food to feed and why. click below and it will take you to the information section. Good luck.
Piranha feeding and nutrition


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## Kyle2154

I just did what I would estimate was a 40-45% water change, I also took out both bottles that were in the tank, the big piece of wood, and about 60% of the gravel, lowering it from about 4" deep to closer to 1.5" deep. Hopefully if the problem was arising from either bottle or the wood, which I highly doubt, it will stop, and if the very thick gravel contained food, which I was vacuuming out very, very small amounts, then it will cease. I don't know what else to do, I will now begin to do a 40% water change every-other-day along with adding AmQuel and Ammo Lock, I am just worried, now that it has been brought to my attention, that these chemicals are preventing the tank from ever cycling and I am fighting a losing battle.

I checked the Ammonia Level after the water change was complete just as a reference for the next check on Saturday morning. I wanted to make sure that if Ammonia went down I would know if it went back up. It tested IMO looking at the grid somewhere between the 4.0 and 8.0 mark, but it seemed to be very, very close to that 8.0 mark, if I had to put a number on it I would guess around 7.0 - 7.5, but obviously it should have lowered given the massive water change.

Kyle


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## Kyle2154

Retested everything again just now:

Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10
PH: 6.4
Ammonia: > 7.0 (Very, very close to 8.0 mark, but second opinion confirmed it was not QUITE as dark as 8.0)

Any ideas?

Kyle

I think I should add that my tank stays relatively dark at almost all times, I didn't put a light on it because I was worried about algae and other stuff being produced...would a light help something grow that might kill ammonia


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## Leasure1

try and not feed your fish as much until you get this cycled. Quite frankly, I am surprised your fish are still alive and your tank still not cycled. This has beengoing on for quite some time now. Are you 100% that something is not killing your bacteria off? Chloramines would be my geuss if so, but if you use a water conditioner, rule that out. I would not change your filter pads anymore until it's cycled. There is tons of bacterias in the pads. If I were you, at this stage in the game, considering how long this has been going on, I would deffinatly get some BIO-SPIRA. Sounds like your only friend right now. Might be pricey, but ask yourself, was it worth all the maintiance, and stress for your fish, and will it be worth all the time in the end if you do not use it?

here is a link to buy the Bio-Spira

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod...=2004&Nty=1

Also, it is recommended that your fish have atleast 12 hrs light per day.
No, a light will not help bacteria growth.


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## Kyle2154

I was told earlier in this thread that Bio Spira would be pointless when performing such large water changes.

I add start right every time I add water and the tank has been hit with AmQuel every morning which eliminates chloramines, among other things.

What if I have discovered the problem whether it be any of the things, rotting food, nasty filters, how long would it take before Ammonia went down? Isn't it like a month before it goes down?

I can't believe that now my tank is empty, only a thin layer of gravel, filters all inspected and cleaned and I can't not get this f*cking ammonia level to drop, this is unbelievable, I have spent probably 2 hours a day since sunday working on this tank, frustration is high.

- I've been told to use chemicals to lower ammonia
- I've been told not to use chemicals because they will prevent the tank from cycling

- I've been told to change pads because of the waste that has built up
- I've been told not to change pads because of the great bacteria built up

- I've been told to shy away from Bio Spira because it won't do any good with such huge water changes
- I've been told Bio Spira is my last chance

Everyone that has given advice is infinitly wiser then I when it comes to fish keeping, obviously because they don't start threads like I did with this one, but I am so caught up with all the options that I fear I have made critical errors, i.e., Chemicals, Filter replacement, tremendous and frequent water changes......

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Limerock

I just thought I would try and give you some encouragement. I was having the exact same problem for about two weeks. I had 0 nitrates and 0 nitrites and my ammonia was at lest 8.0. I did 50% water changes every other day for about ten days with no luck. I did another 50% change last night and all of the sudden I woke up this morning and the ammonia completely disappeared into thin air. I know it sounds too good to be true but I guess this one last water change did the trick. I tested it three times this morning because I kept thinking that maybe I forgot to add one of the chemicals into the tube. My ammonia was still 8.0 yesterday but magically it is now gone. All I ever added to my water was ammolock. I am telling you that things will get better because essentially they cannot get any worse. I do not practice voodoo but I suppose I could try and get my magical powers to you but don't be surprised if you feel like you are having a heart attack instead.


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## Leasure1

just be patient. Try the bio-spira. It will do more good than harm. It works in like 3 days, sometimes sooner. Just do a huge waterchange before you add the bio-spira.

Belive it or not, everything that everyone has said so far makes sense.

It's good that you replaced the filter cartrage the last time due to all the sh*t build up. Other than that, try and only change them evey couple of months. Rinse in tank water if they get clogged.

Ammo-lock is a life saver in your situation. However, it will prevent the tank from cycling, but what would you rather have, fish in a tank with a 0.0 ammo range due to ammo-lock, and the chance of taking longer to cycle? Or dead fish in a tank with ammo over 8.0+ and a cycled tank? Take your pick.

Get the bio-spira and do not use the ammo-lock prior to the use of bio-spira. Try and take a few of your smaller fish and put them in the 29 gal. Leave a few of the larger fish in the big tank, do your water change (a big one would be great, at least 50%), then add your bio-spira. Leave the tank go a couple of days, then take your readings again. Like I said, it will help more than it will harm.

Continue to take water params throughout the process. See if you get a nitrite spike of 2.0 or higher.


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## Kyle2154

My only concern with bio spira is what if the problem is still in my tank. if whatever is causing the problem still remains after bio spira is added then ammonia will just go back up.

Again, what if all the rotting food was the problem, when should ammonia drop? It was taken out 48 hours ago, should it have already dropped, assuming my Ammonia was 10.0 when will I be able to see a difference on my chart??

Kyle


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## PygoFanatic

I just want to throw this in there as well...Leasure is giving you good, sound advice...but I am going off experience here as well...

In my first reply in this thread, I said I went through a similar experience with a tank that seemed to retain ammonia. As a possible solution, I bought some Bio-Spira hoping this would work. I noticed on the package that it says that its not intended to reduce ammonia levels in an aquarium. Thinking I was smarter than whoever put that on the label, I emptied the contents of the package into my aquarium and hoped for the best. Still had high ammonia readings. Still ended up doing water changes. I was really dumb and actually went back and bought more Bio-Spira. When it didnt cure my ammonia situation again, I determined that I essentially paid about $70 for some water with bacteria in it and it helped me in no way. Now, maybe I did something wrong when I added my Bio-Spira, but my real mistake was not taking the time and care to learn about how to properly cycle tanks. So Im not telling you to buy the Bio-Spira or not to, Im just giving you my experience with it in a similar situation to what you have.

Somewhat off-topic, but I notice that you are feverishly trying to trade one of your Caribe for a Tern in the buy/sell. I would strongly advise against bringing new fish into this environment as it will be a total shock to their system the second they are introduced into the tank. The new fish would likely be the one most adversely affected by the toxicity of the water. If I were you, I would focus on getting your tank right, THEN worry about which fish you want in it and which fish you dont...


----------



## barbianj

> - I've been told to use chemicals to lower ammonia


If you did not use chemicals to convert the ammonia, your fish would be dead.



> - I've been told not to use chemicals because they will prevent the tank from cycling


The ammonia is converted to a less toxic form. It is still there for the bacteria to feed on.



> - I've been told to change pads because of the waste that has built up


This is where most of your nitrifying bacteria exist. If you threw the pads away, you also threw away your bacteria.



> - I've been told not to change pads because of the great bacteria built up


This is correct. Only rinse in tank water in a bucket.



> - I've been told to shy away from Bio Spira because it won't do any good with such huge water changes


If the ammonia is converted to a less toxic form, and it is still available to the nitrifying bacteria, what is the purpose of a water change????? I could be wrong on this, but in my experience, water changes did not help reduce the ammonia level at all. Watch the actions of your fish. They should be dead, but they are not. They are stressed and fighting, but they are not gasping for air or laying on their sides.



> - I've been told Bio Spira is my last chance


It may be now if you have new filter pads and no bacteria. Get the bio spira, then then stop the Ammo Lock, feed very little, and you should be OK.

I think you can easily get into trouble if you feed all flesh to your fish and you are not diligent on maintenance. It is easy to miss a little here and there and get a buildup. Then the water gets a little out of whack, and by accident, the filter bacteria is destroyed. It seems to be a fairly common occurance, and it can be VERY frustrating and confusing. Good luck.


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## Kyle2154

My filters are penguin bio wheels, so even though I threw away the pads, the wheels are still there. The pads were absolutley disgusting, I couldn't imagine rinsing them and I could not even whiff them without wanting to vomit. I don't want to invest 70 bucks on Bio Spira if it is not going to work, I would rather invest 200 dollars in say a canister filter. I can certainly picture adding bio spira and having it not reduce ammonia, and as I told leasure, just pulling out the flame thrower and ta hell with it all.

Let's narrow this to a couple main points:

1) a) If the problem has been fixed, (rotting food taken out) how long will it take before ammonia drops?

1) b) After what amount of time is it safe to assume the problem has NOT been fixed and whatever caused the initial spike in ammonia is still present.

2) Is the consensus that the tank can still cycle with chemicals or not, this is what is bothering me, if someone said 'hey just stop with the chemicals and the tank will cycle in 3 or 4 days' thats probably what I would try

Kyle

p.s. What do you guys think about the rise in PH and fall in Nitrate?


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## barbianj

Kyle2154 said:


> My filters are penguin bio wheels, so even though I threw away the pads, the wheels are still there. *OK that makes more sence. * The pads were absolutley disgusting, I couldn't imagine rinsing them and I could not even whiff them without wanting to vomit. I don't want to invest 70 bucks on Bio Spira if it is not going to work, I would rather invest 200 dollars in say a canister filter. I can certainly picture adding bio spira and having it not reduce ammonia, and as I told leasure, just pulling out the flame thrower and ta hell with it all.
> 
> Let's narrow this to a couple main points:
> 
> 1) a) If the problem has been fixed, (rotting food taken out) how long will it take before ammonia drops?
> 
> 1) b) After what amount of time is it safe to assume the problem has NOT been fixed and whatever caused the initial spike in ammonia is still present.
> 
> *Check your nitrate reading. If you have one, you have bacteria. 8.0 ppm is alot of ammonia to be used up by the bacteria.*
> 
> 2) Is the consensus that the tank can still cycle with chemicals or not, this is what is bothering me, if someone said 'hey just stop with the chemicals and the tank will cycle in 3 or 4 days' thats probably what I would try *If you have nitrates, thus bacteria, it would stand to reason that you could discontinue the chemicals and feed lightly with no leftovers. Can you get 1 or 2 cycled sponge filters from a friend or lfs? If you have lost bacteria, this would really help*
> 
> Kyle
> 
> p.s. What do you guys think about the rise in PH and fall in Nitrate?





> could not even whiff them without wanting to vomit


That's a special kind of nasty, isn't it?







I really think more people should check their filters by smell. It sounds weird, but you would have found the problem before it affected your fish.


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## TerryMik

*2007-01-05*

I have not had good results with AmmoLock. After two months of using AmmoLock in conjunction with partial water changes and a dose of Stresszyme every second day, there were still high ammonia levels (AmmoLock becomes ineffective after 24 hours) and no nitrite was forming. I switched to AmGuard (Seachem). It allows the bacteria to access the ammonia & nitrite to break them down. The tank then cycled through as one would normally expect.

A couple of other things to consider*:*

(1) *Over feeding* often results in high ammonia due to the increased metabolic activities (what goes in must come out) as well as surplus food that does not get eaten. I use a one minute rule . . . if there is still food in the tank after a minute, I've overfed, so they get less next time, until I get it right. Also, young fish may need several feedings per day, but older ones do not, so we always need to consider how appropriate our frequency of feeding is.

(2) *Low pH often suggest low kH*. The bacteria require minerals to complete the breakdown of the ammonia & nitrite and water that has a low kH value will be lacking these minerals. I target 1 to 2 degrees of kH and usually end up with a pH of 6.5 to 7.2 depending on other factors, such as the activity of the plant life (low in a.m. due to higher CO2 level), over all tank population, time period since I last did a partial water change, age of the activated carbon etc.

Also, the bacteria are not as efficient in a lower pH (that's why pickles never deteriorate :laugh: ) so that will also impact on ammonia levels.

(3) *Lets support our LFS* . . . sure, we can save a buck or two here & there on a few items at a "Big Box", but how much time & money (including dead fish) do we waste buying products that don't do the job, such as your experience with the test strips instead of a good quality liquid reagent like the API line, or AmmoLock instead of AmGuard??? I feel that if we can find a *good* LFS and follow their advice, we will save lots of money in the long run and enjoy the hobby more by not stressing our fish or ourselves *!!*

Cheers *!!*

Terry


----------



## SAFETYpin

Limerock said:


> I just thought I would try and give you some encouragement. I was having the exact same problem for about two weeks. I had 0 nitrates and 0 nitrites and my ammonia was at lest 8.0. I did 50% water changes every other day for about ten days with no luck. I did another 50% change last night and all of the sudden I woke up this morning and the ammonia completely disappeared into thin air. I know it sounds too good to be true but I guess this one last water change did the trick. I tested it three times this morning because I kept thinking that maybe I forgot to add one of the chemicals into the tube. My ammonia was still 8.0 yesterday but magically it is now gone. All I ever added to my water was ammolock. I am telling you that things will get better because essentially they cannot get any worse. I do not practice voodoo but I suppose I could try and get my magical powers to you but don't be surprised if you feel like you are having a heart attack instead.


I can definitely mirror what this guy said. I recently had a nitrification crash due to lack of maintence and saw very similar results. I was doing daily water changes and none of my parameters were moving and than all of a sudden bam, ammonia was gone kh was back up and ph was fine. I know I killed off my bacterias so even though my parameters are good again, I will still be doing water changes every other day while the filters reestablish themselves. Just keep with it and things will get better later.


----------



## nswhite

Kyle2154 said:


> My filters are penguin bio wheels, so even though I threw away the pads, the wheels are still there. The pads were absolutley disgusting, I couldn't imagine rinsing them and I could not even whiff them without wanting to vomit. I don't want to invest 70 bucks on Bio Spira if it is not going to work, I would rather invest 200 dollars in say a canister filter. I can certainly picture adding bio spira and having it not reduce ammonia, and as I told leasure, just pulling out the flame thrower and ta hell with it all.
> *Its good you replaced the pads you should do that periodically I know I'm the one who told you to get Bio Spira but I thought originally your tank wasnt cycled at all, now that I know your tank is cycled and your just having a ammonia problem I would not get the Bio Spira. *
> 
> Let's narrow this to a couple main points:
> 
> 1) a) If the problem has been fixed, (rotting food taken out) how long will it take before ammonia drops? *Well its hard to say how long. You have a very high ammonia reading so it may take a month or a couple weeks. You said the tank was cycled before so maybe its just going through a mini cycle thats what happens if your nitrifiying bacteria cant keep up with the amount of waste. if it is going through a mini cycle then it may not take as long. *
> 1) b) After what amount of time is it safe to assume the problem has NOT been fixed and whatever caused the initial spike in ammonia is still present. *Well if the tank is cycling you will start to see some NIRITES come up on your test and the ammonia will fall if this doesn't start to happen than there maybe another problem. But I'm about 99% sure you got the ammonia source removed but your ammonia is so high it may take longer to go through the mini cycle.*
> 2) Is the consensus that the tank can still cycle with chemicals or not, this is what is bothering me, if someone said 'hey just stop with the chemicals and the tank will cycle in 3 or 4 days' thats probably what I would try. *Yes the tank will still cycle with the chemicals. You need to keep using the Ammo lock or whatever your using cause that maybe whats keeping your P's alive. Using chemicals and doing frequent water changes may slow down the cycle but will not keep it from cycling but like I said you need to keep doing frequent water changes to try and keep you P's alive. *
> 
> p.s. What do you guys think about the rise in PH and fall in Nitrate? *The Nitrates are falling because of the frequent water changes but not to sure about the pH. Hope this helps. I also wanted to tell you that everything you read here is mostly peoples opinions based on their individual experiances so you have to take all the information you get and figure out for your self what you think you should do. Its hard because everybody has their own opinions*


----------



## barbianj

> Also, the bacteria are not as efficient in a lower pH (that's why pickles never deteriorate )


So that's why my brother-in-law can eat his 5 year old pickles and still live!


----------



## Kyle2154

My game plan for today is to do another water change, probably around 30% and then test everything again later tonight.

Kyle


----------



## PygoFanatic

nswhite said:


> My filters are penguin bio wheels, so even though I threw away the pads, the wheels are still there. The pads were absolutley disgusting, I couldn't imagine rinsing them and I could not even whiff them without wanting to vomit. I don't want to invest 70 bucks on Bio Spira if it is not going to work, I would rather invest 200 dollars in say a canister filter. I can certainly picture adding bio spira and having it not reduce ammonia, and as I told leasure, just pulling out the flame thrower and ta hell with it all.
> *Its good you replaced the pads you should do that periodically I know I'm the one who told you to get Bio Spira but I thought originally your tank wasnt cycled at all, now that I know your tank is cycled and your just having a ammonia problem I would not get the Bio Spira. *
> 
> Let's narrow this to a couple main points:
> 
> 1) a) If the problem has been fixed, (rotting food taken out) how long will it take before ammonia drops? *Well its hard to say how long. You have a very high ammonia reading so it may take a month or a couple weeks. You said the tank was cycled before so maybe its just going through a mini cycle thats what happens if your nitrifiying bacteria cant keep up with the amount of waste. if it is going through a mini cycle then it may not take as long. *
> 1) b) After what amount of time is it safe to assume the problem has NOT been fixed and whatever caused the initial spike in ammonia is still present. *Well if the tank is cycling you will start to see some NIRITES come up on your test and the ammonia will fall if this doesn't start to happen than there maybe another problem. But I'm about 99% sure you got the ammonia source removed but your ammonia is so high it may take longer to go through the mini cycle.*
> 2) Is the consensus that the tank can still cycle with chemicals or not, this is what is bothering me, if someone said 'hey just stop with the chemicals and the tank will cycle in 3 or 4 days' thats probably what I would try. *Yes the tank will still cycle with the chemicals. You need to keep using the Ammo lock or whatever your using cause that maybe whats keeping your P's alive. Using chemicals and doing frequent water changes may slow down the cycle but will not keep it from cycling but like I said you need to keep doing frequent water changes to try and keep you P's alive. *
> 
> p.s. What do you guys think about the rise in PH and fall in Nitrate? *The Nitrates are falling because of the frequent water changes but not to sure about the pH. Hope this helps. I also wanted to tell you that everything you read here is mostly peoples opinions based on their individual experiances so you have to take all the information you get and figure out for your self what you think you should do. Its hard because everybody has their own opinions*


[/quote]
Wow...that echoes just about everything I was trying to say...I feel kinda smart now..


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## nswhite

Cool thats good somebody agrees with me


----------



## TerryMik

PygoFanatic said:


> My filters are penguin bio wheels, so even though I threw away the pads, the wheels are still there. The pads were absolutley disgusting, I couldn't imagine rinsing them and I could not even whiff them without wanting to vomit. I don't want to invest 70 bucks on Bio Spira if it is not going to work, I would rather invest 200 dollars in say a canister filter. I can certainly picture adding bio spira and having it not reduce ammonia, and as I told leasure, just pulling out the flame thrower and ta hell with it all.
> *Its good you replaced the pads you should do that periodically I know I'm the one who told you to get Bio Spira but I thought originally your tank wasnt cycled at all, now that I know your tank is cycled and your just having a ammonia problem I would not get the Bio Spira. *
> 
> Let's narrow this to a couple main points:
> 
> 1) a) If the problem has been fixed, (rotting food taken out) how long will it take before ammonia drops? *Well its hard to say how long. You have a very high ammonia reading so it may take a month or a couple weeks. You said the tank was cycled before so maybe its just going through a mini cycle thats what happens if your nitrifiying bacteria cant keep up with the amount of waste. if it is going through a mini cycle then it may not take as long. *
> 1) b) After what amount of time is it safe to assume the problem has NOT been fixed and whatever caused the initial spike in ammonia is still present. *Well if the tank is cycling you will start to see some NIRITES come up on your test and the ammonia will fall if this doesn't start to happen than there maybe another problem. But I'm about 99% sure you got the ammonia source removed but your ammonia is so high it may take longer to go through the mini cycle.*
> 2) Is the consensus that the tank can still cycle with chemicals or not, this is what is bothering me, if someone said 'hey just stop with the chemicals and the tank will cycle in 3 or 4 days' thats probably what I would try. *Yes the tank will still cycle with the chemicals. You need to keep using the Ammo lock or whatever your using cause that maybe whats keeping your P's alive. Using chemicals and doing frequent water changes may slow down the cycle but will not keep it from cycling but like I said you need to keep doing frequent water changes to try and keep you P's alive. *
> 
> p.s. What do you guys think about the rise in PH and fall in Nitrate? *The Nitrates are falling because of the frequent water changes but not to sure about the pH. Hope this helps. I also wanted to tell you that everything you read here is mostly peoples opinions based on their individual experiances so you have to take all the information you get and figure out for your self what you think you should do. Its hard because everybody has their own opinions*


[/quote]
Wow...that echoes just about everything I was trying to say...I feel kinda smart now.. [/quote]

*2007-01-05*

According to Seachem, ammonia levels above 2 ppm also inhibit the nitrifying bacteria (ammonia is a disinfectant) so I recommend using AmGuard to keep the apparent level under 2 ppm, frequent water changes and daily dosing of a bioproduct (to keep an active population of a non-mutated, therefore more efficient, strain of the nitrifying bacteria in the system) and with this routine the ammonia should be near zero in 10 to 14 days - - nitrite will take longer.

I must repeat, *Ammolock inhibits the nitrifying bacteria*. AmGuard does not. This is not based on just my personal experience - - Hagen has done research on this topic and there is reference to it on their web site. And speaking of experience, while I may be a "Junior Member" I have been in the hobby for 40 years and work in the pet industry. . . not trying to suggest that I "know everything" by any means as I am well aware that this hobby involves a continuous, sometimes very steep "*Learning Curve*" - - but I've "paid my dues" (Okay, many fish over the years have paid my dues for me) and feel that it is important to pass on what I have learned about these ammonia neutralizing chemicals.

Good Luck . . . be consistent and you will get things under control.

Terry


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## Kyle2154

I called around to my nearest three lfs and none of them have AmGuard. Online it is only $6.29 but they want like 9 bucks in shipping. I have some AmQuel left??? Terry have you heard anything about AmQuel?

Kyle


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## Kyle2154

I ordered AmGuard just now, it should be here in a couple days, I have enough AmQuel to hold me over until it gets here. Check this out though.

Listen Carefully:

The bottle comes 500 ml, which is decent sized.

You can choose one of the following per day:

(Standard) 5 ml for every 50 gallons = 12.5 ml for me
(Alert) - 5 ml for every 100 gallons = 7 ml for me
(Alarm) - 5 ml for every 50 gallons = 12.5 ml for me 
(Toxic) - 5 ml for every 20 gallons = 30 ml for me

Or the grand daddy of them all....the formula...

0.5AV=m where A equals the amount ammonia in ppm, V equals volume of water being treated, and m equals volume of AmGuard to use in ml...

0.5*(8)*(135) = 540 ml

Should I just dump the whole bottle in when it gets here??!!?!?!? or slowly treat?

Kyle


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## Kyle2154

Is there a chance that my ammonia test is just not compatibale. I keep reading all this about free ammonia and how some tests report all types of ammonia when a certain type doesn't even matter.

Kyle


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## Leasure1

Water changes DO bring down ammonia levels. Unless you have ammonia in the tap water. Then you have a problem. Treat the water normal with the amguard. Test it and see if it brings it down. I am not sure if amguard will throw the test off though.


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## Kyle2154

So I'll try and perform a 40% water change every other day.

And you suggest I stick with which AmGuard approach? The toxic one? 30 ml a day?

Kyle


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## Leasure1

Have you stoped feeding them yet? I would not feed them <alot> until you are close to cycled, or have some bacterias in your filters. Yes, use that dose of amguard everyday.


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## Kyle2154

I will switch from feeding every other day to once every three days. Keep in mind I used to feed them once a day, so once every three will be quite the switch.

When the AmGuard gets here Ill hit it with 30 ml a day

40% water change every other day, Sat., Mon., Weds.

Kyle


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## Leasure1

just don't forget to get ALL uneaten food out this time. lol j/k

Good luck man. Never know. It may cycle in a few days for ya.

And the above statement about feed was supposed to read "feed them alot until". My fault. sry.

but yes, cut back on feeding


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## PygoFanatic

TerryMik said:


> My filters are penguin bio wheels, so even though I threw away the pads, the wheels are still there. The pads were absolutley disgusting, I couldn't imagine rinsing them and I could not even whiff them without wanting to vomit. I don't want to invest 70 bucks on Bio Spira if it is not going to work, I would rather invest 200 dollars in say a canister filter. I can certainly picture adding bio spira and having it not reduce ammonia, and as I told leasure, just pulling out the flame thrower and ta hell with it all.
> *Its good you replaced the pads you should do that periodically I know I'm the one who told you to get Bio Spira but I thought originally your tank wasnt cycled at all, now that I know your tank is cycled and your just having a ammonia problem I would not get the Bio Spira. *
> 
> Let's narrow this to a couple main points:
> 
> 1) a) If the problem has been fixed, (rotting food taken out) how long will it take before ammonia drops? *Well its hard to say how long. You have a very high ammonia reading so it may take a month or a couple weeks. You said the tank was cycled before so maybe its just going through a mini cycle thats what happens if your nitrifiying bacteria cant keep up with the amount of waste. if it is going through a mini cycle then it may not take as long. *
> 1) b) After what amount of time is it safe to assume the problem has NOT been fixed and whatever caused the initial spike in ammonia is still present. *Well if the tank is cycling you will start to see some NIRITES come up on your test and the ammonia will fall if this doesn't start to happen than there maybe another problem. But I'm about 99% sure you got the ammonia source removed but your ammonia is so high it may take longer to go through the mini cycle.*
> 2) Is the consensus that the tank can still cycle with chemicals or not, this is what is bothering me, if someone said 'hey just stop with the chemicals and the tank will cycle in 3 or 4 days' thats probably what I would try. *Yes the tank will still cycle with the chemicals. You need to keep using the Ammo lock or whatever your using cause that maybe whats keeping your P's alive. Using chemicals and doing frequent water changes may slow down the cycle but will not keep it from cycling but like I said you need to keep doing frequent water changes to try and keep you P's alive. *
> 
> p.s. What do you guys think about the rise in PH and fall in Nitrate? *The Nitrates are falling because of the frequent water changes but not to sure about the pH. Hope this helps. I also wanted to tell you that everything you read here is mostly peoples opinions based on their individual experiances so you have to take all the information you get and figure out for your self what you think you should do. Its hard because everybody has their own opinions*


[/quote]
Wow...that echoes just about everything I was trying to say...I feel kinda smart now.. [/quote]

*2007-01-05*

According to Seachem, ammonia levels above 2 ppm also inhibit the nitrifying bacteria (ammonia is a disinfectant) so I recommend using AmGuard to keep the apparent level under 2 ppm, frequent water changes and daily dosing of a bioproduct (to keep an active population of a non-mutated, therefore more efficient, strain of the nitrifying bacteria in the system) and with this routine the ammonia should be near zero in 10 to 14 days - - nitrite will take longer.

I must repeat, *Ammolock inhibits the nitrifying bacteria*. AmGuard does not. This is not based on just my personal experience - - Hagen has done research on this topic and there is reference to it on their web site. And speaking of experience, while I may be a "Junior Member" I have been in the hobby for 40 years and work in the pet industry. . . not trying to suggest that I "know everything" by any means as I am well aware that this hobby involves a continuous, sometimes very steep "*Learning Curve*" - - but I've "paid my dues" (Okay, many fish over the years have paid my dues for me) and feel that it is important to pass on what I have learned about these ammonia neutralizing chemicals.

Good Luck . . . be consistent and you will get things under control.

Terry
[/quote]

You should post more often...

Kyle, depending on which test you have, once you add ammo-lock or amquel or whatever, your test may result in a false positive...or something to that effect. Ask Jerry (Dr. Giggles) about this, I think he knows off the top of his head..


----------



## Kyle2154

I dumped a crap load of AmQuel into the tank, about 1 and 1/2 the recommended dosage, 6 hours ago, and the Ammonia reading is down below 8.0 again, somewhere around 7.

water change tomorrow baby! shooting for 40% and hopefully the AmGuard will be here by Mon-Weds to start that treatment.

I see where Terry was comming from, AmQuel specifically states that it eliminates all Nitrates and Nitrites as well, maybe AmGuard focuses more on Chlorine and Ammonia specifically (as the label implies) I can now see how certain ones may inhibit cycling and others may not.

Mad props to Terry! and of course those who were debating the cycling theory in the first place









Kyle


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> I ordered AmGuard just now, it should be here in a couple days, I have enough AmQuel to hold me over until it gets here. Check this out though.
> 
> Listen Carefully:
> 
> The bottle comes 500 ml, which is decent sized.
> 
> You can choose one of the following per day:
> 
> (Standard) 5 ml for every 50 gallons = 12.5 ml for me
> (Alert) - 5 ml for every 100 gallons = 7 ml for me
> (Alarm) - 5 ml for every 50 gallons = 12.5 ml for me
> (Toxic) - 5 ml for every 20 gallons = 30 ml for me
> 
> Or the grand daddy of them all....the formula...
> 
> 0.5AV=m where A equals the amount ammonia in ppm, V equals volume of water being treated, and m equals volume of AmGuard to use in ml...
> 
> 0.5*(8)*(135) = 540 ml
> 
> Should I just dump the whole bottle in when it gets here??!!?!?!? or slowly treat?
> 
> Kyle


*2007-01-05*

Kyle,

I've read your post and a few of the ones that followed, so I hope I can remember it all and answer all your questions.

According to Seachem, the Amguard will neutralise the ammonia for 48 hours. The important thing is to test daily and *keep your level under 2 ppm* (as I mentioned in a previous post, higher levels will slow down or even kill the nitrifying bacteria - - that is why I recommend dosing the bioproduct daily & this will also help to keep ahead of the mutations). The Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit that uses the two reagents will show you the net amount of toxic ammonia (no false readings). Let me know if you have another brand & I tell you what I know about it (PM me if you like). I would suggest that you use an amount that will reduce the ammonia from it's current level to one that is under 2 ppm (5 ml per 10 Gallons will neutralise 1 ppm of ammonia), let it circulate for 15 or 20 minutes, then retest & add more if necessary.

Unfortunately, I cannot tell you whether or not AmQuel leaves ammonia in a state that will allow the bacteria to access it, but I did find it more effective than the AmmoLock in neutralising the ammonia on a temporary basis at least, so go ahead and use it until the AmGuard arrives. Broken record that I may be, dose the bioproduct daily. I also agree wholeheartedly with the person that suggested you stop feeding, or cut back heavily. Once again, I recommend that you look at your over all feeding routine as I outlined in a previous post.

I hope this helps . . . please keep me up to date on how it is going.

Terry


----------



## Kyle2154

Alright I'll hit my tank with a 40% water change today (saturday) and a 40% on monday. When AmGuard gets here I'll have 500 ml to play with, so I'll go through all the filters and all the gravel a 2nd time to make sure the problem has been solved, then I"ll use what you told me and hit it with 340 ml, since I am anticipating that my Ammonia will be around 7, I'll try to get it down to 2: 5ml per 10 to reduce 1 ppm = 1/2 ml per gallon to reduce 1 ppm = 135 x 1/2 = 68 x 5 = 340 ml...whew...

I'll test about 15 - 20 minutes later and hopefully I will have my tank in the 1 - 3 ppm range, and then I will hit it with the remainder of the AmGuard.

That will be just the beginning of many more questions...I will feed the fish the day before the treatment and not feed again for 3 or 4 days. I can only imagine my FREAK OUT if the next couple of days Ammonia is back on the rise.

What should I do after that treatment? Should water changes continue? or should they not so the tank can cycle better? Should AmQuel or another substance keep being added to keep Ammonia down? or should it stay down on its own once it deeps below 2 ppm?

Kyle


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> Alright I'll hit my tank with a 40% water change today (saturday) and a 40% on monday. When AmGuard gets here I'll have 500 ml to play with, so I'll go through all the filters and all the gravel a 2nd time to make sure the problem has been solved, then I"ll use what you told me and hit it with 340 ml, since I am anticipating that my Ammonia will be around 7, I'll try to get it down to 2: 5ml per 10 to reduce 1 ppm = 1/2 ml per gallon to reduce 1 ppm = 135 x 1/2 = 68 x 5 = 340 ml...whew...
> 
> I'll test about 15 - 20 minutes later and hopefully I will have my tank in the 1 - 3 ppm range, and then I will hit it with the remainder of the AmGuard.
> 
> That will be just the beginning of many more questions...I will feed the fish the day before the treatment and not feed again for 3 or 4 days. I can only imagine my FREAK OUT if the next couple of days Ammonia is back on the rise.
> 
> What should I do after that treatment? Should water changes continue? or should they not so the tank can cycle better? Should AmQuel or another substance keep being added to keep Ammonia down? or should it stay down on its own once it deeps below 2 ppm?
> 
> Kyle


*2007-01-05* 



Kyle,



I like the idea of the 40% W/C - - that will help dilute the ammonia.



A 4" or larger piranha can easily go more than a week without eating, so I would be inclined to cut out the feeding altogether for the time being.



You've correctly worked out the calculation for the amount of AmGuard that you will need, but once you get the ammonia below 2 ppm, there is no need to add extra Amguard right away - - you will need it for later, as it will only neutralise the ammonia for about 48 hours. Ammonia will then start to rise again - - the bacteria will need more than 48 hours to break down a concentration that is as high as yours is. If you cut out the feeding and give the bacteria a chance to catch up, you will get it under control much faster.



To answer your questions as to what to do after the initial treatment with the AmGuard, I would suggest the following*:* 



*1. **Cut out all feeding !!*

2. Make sure that you have *a kH of about 1 degree and a pH above 6.5* (refer to one of my earlier replies for an explanation as to why I recommend this, and I must point out that you *do not want* to go above 7.0 as *ammonia becomes increasingly toxic* at a pH above neutral).

3. *Test for ammonia daily*.

*4. **Add a bio-product daily.*

5. Add AmGuard (when needed) to keep the ammonia below 2 ppm.

6. Do a 40% W/C every two or three days.



If you follow these guidelines, I would expect that the ammonia level would be below 1 ppm (without the assistance of the Amgard) in 7 to 10 days. After that, take it easy with the feedings as I doubt that you would want to start this all over again *!!* 

Please let me know what brand of ammonia test you are using.



I am happy to answer as many questions as I can, so keep firing them my way. Just to give you some advance notice, I'm planning to be out of town from Jan 11 to 14 and will not have Internet access, but I'm sure there are others who will give you advice if you need it. Cut out the feeding (oh, did I mention that already??) to give the bacteria a chance to do their thing and you'll save yourself a lot of $$ worth of chemicals - - and your fish will be happier. Remember that bacteria reproduce exponentially, so the more time they have (and let's face it, they have *plenty* of food) the closer they will be to the needed maximum population.



Good Luck & keep in touch.





Terry


----------



## Kyle2154

Alright, sounds like a plan, where are you located? I'm in Michigan.

I am using the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freashwater Master Test Kit, and yes there are two ammonia test bottles, so you had it dead on.

What did you mean by a Bio-Product daily??

Assuming I am going to run out of AmGuard, can I switch to AmQuel as it is much more readily available and won't cost nearly as much? since AmGuard is costing me 20 bucks with shipping, it's going to be a pain to order more....Grrrr

I can certainly cut down feeding, I was feeding every day, then every other day, then every 3 days, and now I will only feed one last time on Mon/Tues and then cut them off for a week, a day or two before treatment begins.

Is this a summary of what the tank needs to go through:

Ammonia must be lowered long enough for bacteria to break it down.

My only issue is I didn't think that Ammonia grew, rather it was formed, like a piece of food rotting is constantly producing more ammonia, not that ammonia is in the tank, so it is spreading. Why if my ammonia level is 8 and the problem has been solved does ammonia keep rising to 8??? it doesn't grow like bacteria does it? it is formed? To reiterate if the problem is fixed how is more ammonia forming??? <--- this is my biggest question, I will spend a $100 - $200 to fix this tank, but not to not fix this tank.

Kyle


----------



## PygoFanatic

Kyle2154 said:


> Alright, sounds like a plan, where are you located? I'm in Michigan.
> 
> I am using the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freashwater Master Test Kit, and yes there are two ammonia test bottles, so you had it dead on.
> 
> What did you mean by a Bio-Product daily??
> 
> Assuming I am going to run out of AmGuard, can I switch to AmQuel as it is much more readily available and won't cost nearly as much? since AmGuard is costing me 20 bucks with shipping, it's going to be a pain to order more....Grrrr
> 
> I can certainly cut down feeding, I was feeding every day, then every other day, then every 3 days, and now I will only feed one last time on Mon/Tues and then cut them off for a week, a day or two before treatment begins.
> 
> Is this a summary of what the tank needs to go through:
> 
> Ammonia must be lowered long enough for bacteria to break it down.
> 
> My only issue is I didn't think that Ammonia grew, rather it was formed, like a piece of food rotting is constantly producing more ammonia, not that ammonia is in the tank, so it is spreading. Why if my ammonia level is 8 and the problem has been solved does ammonia keep rising to 8??? it doesn't grow like bacteria does it? it is formed? *To reiterate if the problem is fixed how is more ammonia forming??? * <--- this is my biggest question, I will spend a $100 - $200 to fix this tank, but not to not fix this tank.
> 
> Kyle


I dont know if Id say the problem is fixed, first of all. You did find the source of HIGH ammonia which is fantastic. However, the reason ammonia probably keeps going up is because you still have fish in your tank that are eating and thus, producing waste...


----------



## TerryMik

PygoFanatic said:


> Alright, sounds like a plan, where are you located? I'm in Michigan.
> 
> I am using the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freashwater Master Test Kit, and yes there are two ammonia test bottles, so you had it dead on.
> 
> What did you mean by a Bio-Product daily??
> 
> Assuming I am going to run out of AmGuard, can I switch to AmQuel as it is much more readily available and won't cost nearly as much? since AmGuard is costing me 20 bucks with shipping, it's going to be a pain to order more....Grrrr
> 
> I can certainly cut down feeding, I was feeding every day, then every other day, then every 3 days, and now I will only feed one last time on Mon/Tues and then cut them off for a week, a day or two before treatment begins.
> 
> Is this a summary of what the tank needs to go through:
> 
> Ammonia must be lowered long enough for bacteria to break it down.
> 
> My only issue is I didn't think that Ammonia grew, rather it was formed, like a piece of food rotting is constantly producing more ammonia, not that ammonia is in the tank, so it is spreading. Why if my ammonia level is 8 and the problem has been solved does ammonia keep rising to 8??? it doesn't grow like bacteria does it? it is formed? *To reiterate if the problem is fixed how is more ammonia forming??? *<--- this is my biggest question, I will spend a $100 - $200 to fix this tank, but not to not fix this tank.
> 
> Kyle


I dont know if Id say the problem is fixed, first of all. You did find the source of HIGH ammonia which is fantastic. However, the reason ammonia probably keeps going up is because you still have fish in your tank that are eating and thus, producing waste...
[/quote]

*2007-01-06* 



*Part* of the problems is that the fish are producing ammonia through their digestion of food, (yes, ammonia is "formed" - a by-product of the metabolism of the fish and of bacteria decomposing the surplus food and other organic waste . . . it does not "grow" on it's own,) but the problem will not be "solved" unless you have at least one degree of kH (Carbonate Hardness) - - the bacteria need these minerals to break down the ammonia.



When I say "Bio-Product" I am referring to "Cycle" (Hagen), Stresszyme (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals) or "Stability" (Seachem) - - products that contain nitrifying bacteria. I have used all three and found all to be effective. I do *not* follow the manufacturer's instructions as I have found more frequent use in the beginning is more effective. Then I add it about once a month to re-establish the more efficient (non-mutated) strain of the bacteria (so I end up using less in the long term). There is much more that could be said about these products, but I will save that for another time. Bio Spira is also a "Bio-Product" but as it is not available in Canada, I have no experience with it - - and to answer your question as to where I am, I live in British Columbia (Western Canada, just north of Washington State). We have very soft water in my specific area (10 to 15 ppm of kH, which is just under one degree of German Hardness, [kH]. That is how I have come to learn of how much of an impact kH has on the nitrogen cycle. From corresponding with another person in Michigan, I am of the understanding that the kH in your area is around 3 or 4 degrees - - but we must always remember to never assume anything, so I would recommend that you test what ever water you are putting into the tank. If your tank water has under one degree of kH, which would be my guess (but once again - - *test* so we know for sure) and the water going into the tank has a kH of 3 or 4 degrees, that would suggest you are over feeding. Rather than get into all that now, if you can do those tests to confirm everything, I'll help you work it out from there. Just to be clear, I need to know the kH, not the GH (I don't recall which "Hardness" test comes with the Master Kit - - also API has revised the contents a couple of times).



As for using AmQuel instead of AmGuard, I cannot give any advice on that. As I have said in previous replies, AmQuel is a very effective ammonia neutraliser, but *if* it locks it up so the bacteria cannot access it, then it will work against you. I have not contacted Kordon on this issue, so I have no info to relay to you as to whether or not it "locks" the ammonia. On the other hand, Seachem states that AmGuard does keep the ammonia available to the bacteria and my own experience has born that out.



It might be worth asking your LFS to bring the AmGuard in for you. In my area there are several Wholesalers who carry the line so all the LFS can usually get any products within a week to 10 days, even items that they normally don't carry, as our Wholesalers deal in many lines (we get our Seachem products from the same wholesaler that provides us with API or Kordon products) and perhaps the same applies in your area. The Big Boxes will not be able or willing to look after you in this way, but a good LFS will.



If you do have to order your AmGuard on line, I would guess that the $20 shipping charge is a "minimum" and would not change if you were ordering more items, so that might help cut down on your over all cost.



To confirm your summary - - yes, the ammonia must remain below 2 ppm to allow the bacteria to break it down - - the AmGuard is only converting the ammonia into a non-toxic form. The ammonia remains in the tank until the bacteria break it down and because the AmGuard can only hold it in this "neutral" state for 48 hours, you may have to re-dose.



I hope this is helpful - - sorry to be so wordy, but there is a lot of stuff to cover here.



Terry


----------



## Kyle2154

My ammonia test revealed once again that my ammonia has risen to 8.0. My master test kit comes with an ammonia, ph, nitrite, and nitrate. I suppose I will have to go get a KH and GH tester.

I can't tell you the frustration I am feeling, what good is it going to do to chemically lower ammonia to 2.0 just to have it raise again to 8.0? I understand that bacteria cannot break it down, but if something is academically wrong to begin with what would prevent Ammonia from going on the rise again.

I took out some excess food, changed the amount of times I feed them, and took out decorations, do these seemingly meaningless changes mean I will be headed for a better ammonia level?

I will pick up KH and GH testers, should I determine their amounts before I start treatment.

Kyle


----------



## Kyle2154

Also I have 9 piranha, obviously this is too many, should I remove some in an attempt to lower ammonia, or will this not help?

I assumed that more piranha = more waste, should I just sell 3 reds, or what????

Kyle


----------



## PygoFanatic

I think that selling a few off would definitely make your situation a LOT easier to control! Sounds like a good idea! By the way, reducing feeding is NOT a meannigless change...it should help reduce the ammonia levels in your tank!


----------



## Kyle2154

I will look into trading in some of my piranha. One of my reds has a problem with its eye. Its very cloudy. The picture does it a little bit of justice...what do you think.

Also ammonia readings are off the chart, I'm thinking about running down and hitting the tank with a full bottle of Amquel after a water change, just until AmGuard gets here, any thoughts? I just gave my piranha 1 little raw shrimp, their last feeding until this problem is resolved. I will remove almost all of the gravel tomorrow, to have a bare bottom, along with go through the filters another time.

Oh yeah, whats wrong with my one piranha??

Kyle


----------



## bchc

The cloudy eye is from the ammonia.

I had that once and used salt and 10% wc's for a few days in a row and it went away.


----------



## Kyle2154

I added 10 tablespoons of salt, approx. a 50 gallon treatment since some amount of water has been removed since last salt treatment.

I will do a water change tomorrow, probably around 30% and like I said, take out most gravel, go through filters, add water, and hit with a double or triple treatment of AmQuel. Hopefully I can turn this tank around, this has been going on awhile however.

Kyle


----------



## Kyle2154

Kyle2154 said:


> My ammonia test revealed once again that my ammonia has risen to 8.0. My master test kit comes with an ammonia, ph, nitrite, and nitrate. I suppose I will have to go get a KH and GH tester.
> 
> I can't tell you the frustration I am feeling, what good is it going to do to chemically lower ammonia to 2.0 just to have it raise again to 8.0? I understand that bacteria cannot break it down, but if something is academically wrong to begin with what would prevent Ammonia from going on the rise again.
> 
> I took out some excess food, changed the amount of times I feed them, and took out decorations, do these seemingly meaningless changes mean I will be headed for a better ammonia level?
> 
> I will pick up KH and GH testers, should I determine their amounts before I start treatment.
> 
> Kyle


----------



## barbianj

TerryMik is giving you very good advice. The rise in ammonia is always coming from a source. Don't feed, but watch your fish closely. Also, start posting your nitrite and nitrate readings. When your ammonia drops, it will happen fairly quickly. Then your nitrite will rise. It would help to know what your nitrate reading was now to tell if you have active bacteria.


----------



## Kyle2154

I'll test Nitrite and Nitrate right now...

Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 10 - 20

Kyle

Man I hate this, are we assuming that there must still be food rotting somewhere? I coulda sworn I covered the tank inside and out (filters) but this is pissing me off


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> I added 10 tablespoons of salt, approx. a 50 gallon treatment since some amount of water has been removed since last salt treatment.
> 
> I will do a water change tomorrow, probably around 30% and like I said, take out most gravel, go through filters, add water, and hit with a double or triple treatment of AmQuel. Hopefully I can turn this tank around, this has been going on awhile however.
> 
> Kyle


*2007-01-07* 



Hi Kyle,



I'm glad that you will look at reducing your population. As I said in my last reply, the overfeeding was only part of the problem, but I was throwing so much your way, I didn't want to give you info overload. Finding new homes for 3 or 4 Reds would be a great help.



I agree with PygoFanatic - - reducing feeding will be a great benefit in getting things levelled off.



As for the ammonia burn on the eye, I would dose the salt at a rate of 4 Tablespoons per 10 Gallons (at each W/C, remember to add salt at the same rate for water removed only). Salt will not only reduce the stress on the fish by improving "osmotic balance" but it will also reduce the toxic effects of the nitrite that will form once the ammonia begins to break down. Nitrite inhibits gill function, so as it builds up the fish have a reduced ability to take on Oxygen and to expel ammonia and Carbon Dioxide - - salt improves gill function & therefore reduces the effects of Nitrite.



*I would recommend that you do not remove all of your gravel. *While it does provide a place for waste to get trapped and therefore foul the tank, it is also one of the two major areas where nitrification (break down of ammonia, nitrite and [in the right circumstances] nitrate) takes place. Gravel provides a large surface area upon which these bacteria can establish themselves . . . and the more bacteria, the quicker the breakdown of these nasty substances. I would suggest a layer of gravel that is about ¾ of an inch thick. This provides a reasonable surface area and basically eliminates any potential for anaerobic activity ("medium" to "medium coarse" gravel allows oxygen to penetrate to the depth of about 1"). *The other area* where you get your major nitrification is in your filter system. Please refresh me as to what type of filter you have. If it is the Penguin system with Bio-Wheels, they will do this job very well. If I remember correctly (check with the Marineland web site to be sure) each Bio-Wheel is sufficient for about 50 Gallons. It can never hurt to have too much bio-filtration, so you may want to consider adding one or more Hydro Sponge filters, as these too are very efficient and are relatively inexpensive, especially if you power them with an air pump rather than with a power head - (Bio-Wheels are better). Depending on your budget, you may want to look into a trickle filter. Trickle filters are a bit more complex to install as an add-on, as they are usually installed as part of a sump, which generally involves drilling a hole in the tank and feeding the sump through an overflow tube. Overflow tubes do create some noise, but trickle filters are very efficient and help to oxygenate and gas off the Carbon Dioxide. I have heard of "over-the-back" systems to feed the trickle filter, but have no experience with them and cannot comment on any pros & cons other than to say it would make it very easy to add a trickle filter. Another option is to install the trickle filter above the tank - - you can feed it with a submersible pump or power head, thus making it easy to install. However, this can be a bit unsightly. I suggest going "oversize" on your power head as there is an exponential loss of volume the higher the water is pumped - - submersible pumps usually provide the data regarding this loss. There are also "Fluidized Bed" filters that are excellent bio-filters, but they take a lot longer to seed than the Bio-Wheels and a bit longer than the Hydro Sponge. I have used several brands of Fluidized Bed filters and find the Pentair version the easiest to service and maintain. *Please do not take all the gravel out of the tank !!* 



I know that this must be very frustrating for you at this point. Do not lose faith. This tank can be turned around, and I can tell by your responses to the various bits of info that are flowing your way that you are on the right track. This hobby teaches us patience (and for those of you that remember David Carradine in the TV show "Kung Fu" I add the word "grasshopper") LOL.



So, keep on track with "the plan" - - 



· Reduced Feeding

· 30% to 40% W/C every two or three days

· Keep pH around 6.5 to 7.0 with a kH of about 1 Degree

· Maintain the salt concentration

· Keep the ammonia below 2 ppm with AmGuard

· Add a "Bio-Product" daily

· Monitor nitrite daily - - this is the only way to tell if you are getting ahead of the ammonia, as once nitrite shows up, you know the ammonia is breaking down.

· *"Steady as she goes"* 



I wish you continued Good Luck.





Terry





*PS:*_ In my opinion, you only need to get a kH test kit. As far as I have been able to determine, only Carbonate Hardness has any impact on nitrification._


----------



## barbianj

Probably not rotting food. You fed your fish and your bacteria are not functioning properly. You have nitrates, which is very good. What I did was after I eliminated the ammonia source, I stopped using the Ammo Lock, did a water change, did not feed, added bio spira, and two days later the ammonia dropped. I had a nitrate reading similar to yours. If you had zero nitrates, this would be a different story. When your ammonia drops and your nitrite spikes, add salt to reduce the effects of the nitrite. I know it seems like it will never end, but hang in there. You're on the right track.

Also, what TerryMik said about the hydro sponge. If you can get a used one from a friend or lfs it will be full of bacteria without the cost of bio spira.


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> I'll test Nitrite and Nitrate right now...
> 
> Nitrite - 0
> Nitrate - 10 - 20
> 
> Kyle
> 
> Man I hate this, are we assuming that there must still be food rotting somewhere? I coulda sworn I covered the tank inside and out (filters) but this is pissing me off


*2007-01-07*

A couple of other things . . . test your tap water for nitrates as well. The 10 to 20 ppm of nitrates could be from the new water, which would not be such a good thing. If tap water is nil for nitrates, then what you have in your tank is from when the nitrification was going well.

Just to be clear, the rise in ammonia will be partly from feeding the fish but mostly from the fact that the AmQuel can only keep it "neutralized" for 24 hours or so, then it comes back (AmGuard will do this for 48 hours). As long as you keep it below 2 ppm, the bio-product will start to digest it (once you start using AmGuard - - as I said before, I'm not sure about AmQuel in this regard). *The rise in ammonia does not mean you have missed any rotting food.*

Also, I would like to know what your total flow rate is for your tank. Contrary to "Industry" standards, I like a flow ratio of about 10:1 - - - that is to say, a 135 Gallon aquarium would have a total flow rate of about 1350 GPH. *I'd love to hear how others see this issue. While I've been in the hobby 40 years, I am a rookie to these forums. I'd like to start a "Poll" on this, but I'm not sure how to do it. Please pass along any suggestions or feed-back. I'll also ask a local buddy of mine who also posts on this Forum to give me a hand . . . Myles, are you out there??? (LOL)*

Terry


----------



## Kyle2154

I have 3 x 350 penguin bio wheels...to my calculations that is 1050 gallons an hour. Not quite your 10:1 ratio, closer to like 8:1. I am considering adding a canister filter, will this help? I don't like the "well it won't hurt" response, I would like to hear that adding a canister filter with more flow would help. I can't imagine taking a drill to my tank, I don't want to mess it up.

I will head down to my LFS tomorrow and pick up a bio product. I probably will just dump in a bottle of AmQuel just to hold the tank over until AmGuard gets here.

Kyle

I am in the process of testing Nitrates from the tap right now, I'll let you know how it comes out.

<edit> it came out in the 5.0 - 10.0 range from the tap. Even though the Nitrate from the tap is present, I can say with almost certainty that the tank Nitrate level is HIGHER then the tap nitrate level.


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> I have 3 x 350 penguin bio wheels...to my calculations that is 1050 gallons an hour. Not quite your 10:1 ratio, closer to like 8:1. I am considering adding a canister filter, will this help? I don't like the "well it won't hurt" response, I would like to hear that adding a canister filter with more flow would help. I can't imagine taking a drill to my tank, I don't want to mess it up.
> 
> I will head down to my LFS tomorrow and pick up a bio product. I probably will just dump in a bottle of AmQuel just to hold the tank over until AmGuard gets here.
> 
> Kyle
> 
> I am in the process of testing Nitrates from the tap right now, I'll let you know how it comes out.
> 
> <edit> it came out in the 5.0 - 10.0 range from the tap. Even though the Nitrate from the tap is present, I can say with almost certainty that the tank Nitrate level is HIGHER then the tap nitrate level.


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> I have 3 x 350 penguin bio wheels...to my calculations that is 1050 gallons an hour. Not quite your 10:1 ratio, closer to like 8:1. I am considering adding a canister filter, will this help? I don't like the "well it won't hurt" response, I would like to hear that adding a canister filter with more flow would help. I can't imagine taking a drill to my tank, I don't want to mess it up.
> 
> I will head down to my LFS tomorrow and pick up a bio product. I probably will just dump in a bottle of AmQuel just to hold the tank over until AmGuard gets here.
> 
> Kyle
> 
> I am in the process of testing Nitrates from the tap right now, I'll let you know how it comes out.
> 
> <edit> it came out in the 5.0 - 10.0 range from the tap. Even though the Nitrate from the tap is present, I can say with almost certainty that the tank Nitrate level is HIGHER then the tap nitrate level.


*2007-01-07*

It's good to know all this. Now we have a "starting point". Either way, this suggests that their has not been much in the way of ammonia/nitrite break down in a while (although I need to factor in all the W/C too, so perhaps it is inappropriate for me to make that statement). In any case, the Bio-Product will help to get things rolling again. Hang in there. I'm certain that there are many of us on this Forum that are "cheering" for you. We've all been through similar situations and we know that there is light at the end of the tunnel. So stick with your plan and keep working it . . . things will turn around in a positive way.



Keep me posted . . . I must head off to do a few things before I hit the hay, but I will check in tomorrow.

Cheers *!!*

Terry


----------



## barbianj

A 10x turnover is what's recommended. Your rate can be significantly less with dirty filter media. Add to that a heavily stocked tank, then yes, you do need more filtration. Your ball of rotting fish was what put the system over the edge.

BTW, not to downplay the cloudy eye, but it will clear up as soon as your ammonia levels drop.


----------



## Kyle2154

I am in the process of a 40% water change. I finally picked up a python, seems to be going well. I bought 2 x 473 ml bottles of AmQuel. I wanted to point out that on the back it states "does not interfere wth biological filtration of nitrifying bacteria" so it will at least be better then nothing.

Kyle

<edit>

- Finished water change...45%

- added 300 ml of AmQuel. The back says that 5 ml will treat 10 gallons for 1.2 ppm of ammonia. Since I have a 135, I need 13.5 x 5 for a treatment, or 67.5 ml. well if 67.5 should reduce my ammonia 1.2 then 300 should reduce it 5.33. (you can do your own math, but I think that's right)

- retested everything

Ammonia - 1.0
Ph - 6.6
Nitrate - 10
Nitrite - 0

After the test I dumped in the rest of the AmQuel bottle, ammonia should be next to nothing at this moment, I'll retest everything tomorrow night to see how much AmQuel I need to add tomorrow.


----------



## Kyle2154

Retested ammonia again, still under 2.0 ppm. I will retest again before bed, if it peaks above 2.0, I'll hit the tank with another 134 ml.

Kyle

Hopefully this tank is and will come around, if it does this will be a great reference topic. Although right now the ammonia level is just chemically altered, I'll have to wait and see.


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> Retested ammonia again, still under 2.0 ppm. I will retest again before bed, if it peaks above 2.0, I'll hit the tank with another 134 ml.
> 
> Kyle
> 
> Hopefully this tank is and will come around, if it does this will be a great reference topic. Although right now the ammonia level is just chemically altered, I'll have to wait and see.


*2007-01-08* 



Hi Kyle,



The next step is to test your Carbonate Hardness. If you have at least one degree of kH and the AmQuel *truly* does not interfere with biological filtration, then you should start to see nitrite in a few days . . . that's when you know you are on your way to getting this resolved.



Testing once or twice a day as you are, and hitting it with the AmQuel when the ammonia rises to 2 ppm is awesome . . . you are handling this perfectly.



I hope you are also using a "Bio-Product" . . . which one did you choose?



I'd like to know the kH of your tank *and* your tap water. 



Hang in there *!!* 





Terry


----------



## Kyle2154

It skipped my mind to pick up a kh tester and a bio product. I was in there getting dog food and just picked up AmQuel. SHOOT! I will go back and get a kh tester and a bio product for when AmGuard arrives. I retested Ammonia just now and it read around 1.0, but deffidentally below the 2.0 mark. Before I go to bed tonight I will retest nitrite, nitrate, ph, and ammonia, sometime later this week/weekend I will head down and pick up a bio product and kh tester.

The plan:

- Test ammonia 2 times a day, dose with AmQuel appropriatly
- 40% water change on Wednesday and Friday
- Test Nitrate, Nitrite, and Ph every other day

When AmGuard gets here:

- Test ammonia and get/keep down below 2.0
- add bioproduct
- dose with AmGuard appropriatly
- 40% water change Sunday and Tuesday

Kyle


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> It skipped my mind to pick up a kh tester and a bio product. I was in there getting dog food and just picked up AmQuel. SHOOT! I will go back and get a kh tester and a bio product for when AmGuard arrives. I retested Ammonia just now and it read around 1.0, but deffidentally below the 2.0 mark. Before I go to bed tonight I will retest nitrite, nitrate, ph, and ammonia, sometime later this week/weekend I will head down and pick up a bio product and kh tester.
> 
> The plan:
> 
> - Test ammonia 2 times a day, dose with AmQuel appropriatly
> - 40% water change on Wednesday and Friday
> - Test Nitrate, Nitrite, and Ph every other day
> 
> When AmGuard gets here:
> 
> - Test ammonia and get/keep down below 2.0
> - add bioproduct
> - dose with AmGuard appropriatly
> - 40% water change Sunday and Tuesday
> 
> Kyle


*2007-01-09*

Sounds Good.

Let me know when you get some nitrite (and your kH readings, when you get the kit).

How are the fish looking now? How does the water look & smell?

Just for you, I've cancelled my out of town trip - - okay, the damned weather did it for me














, so I'll be keeping an eye on the site, if you need a hand.

Hope all goes well.

tm


----------



## Kyle2154

Restested everything just now:

Ammonia: 1.0
PH: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20

The tank smells decently BAD.

So ph has dipped again, AmQuel managed to keep Ammonia down below 2 for 48 hours with the appropriate dosage, but still no Nitrite.

I'm hooking up the Python to do a 40% water change, I'll retest Ammonia again tonight and then dose (if necessary) with AmQuel.

Kyle


----------



## Tinkerbelle

just for a baseline to know what you're testing against, i would suggest doing all tests on your natural tap water. knowing what the tap pH, kh, gh, etc. is really good.


----------



## Kyle2154

I just got "cycle" which contains a lot of good bacteria, as was recommended. Do I just dump it into the tank? or into the filter? filter cartridge? or the bio-wheels? I have enough to treat the tank twice. I will buy more on Friday.

I am going to test and make sure that I have my ammonia below 2 ppm and then treat with "cycle" tonight, I just need to know where you guys recommend I put it. I performed a 55% water change today.

Kyle


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> I just got "cycle" which contains a lot of good bacteria, as was recommended. Do I just dump it into the tank? or into the filter? filter cartridge? or the bio-wheels? I have enough to treat the tank twice. I will buy more on Friday.
> 
> I am going to test and make sure that I have my ammonia below 2 ppm and then treat with "cycle" tonight, I just need to know where you guys recommend I put it. I performed a 55% water change today.
> 
> Kyle


*2007-01-10*

I think I'd be inclined to add the Cycle to the Bio-Wheels. That way you seed the primary nitrification areas, and what runs off into the tank will help to spread the bacteria everywhere.

You need to get the pH up. I'm hoping that your LFS carries other Hagen products besides the Cycle. Look for one called kH Booster/pH Stabilizer. As the name implies, you can use it to increase your hardness and (therefore) stabilize your pH. A single dose (one teaspoon per 10 Gallons) will boost your kH about one degree - - pH should settle in around 7.0 depending on a lot of factors - - no need to get into all that now (I can hear the cheers, now







).

As Tinkerbelle mentioned, you need to get your tap water readings so we know how much difference there is between the two "waters".

You can expect the tank to smell bad for a while - - sniffing it every once in a while is just another way of "measuring " how it is doing.

Keep adding the Cycle daily if you can, test the kH (I will make a few more recommendations once I know that - - along with the tap water readings) and keep the ammonia below 2.0 ppm and you should start to see results very soon. Let me know when you start to see nitrite.

It looks like you are getting a handle on this, so keep up the good work *!!*

Terry


----------



## barbianj

> sniffing it every once in a while is just another way of "measuring " how it is doing.


Can't emphasize that enough.









From what I have heard, Cycle does not have live bacteria as Bio Spira does. Bio Spira needs to be refrigerated, although neither product is dated. I have used the Bio Spira when I started my 55 gallon sump, and it worked in just a few days. I have not used Cycle myself, so I don't know firsthand if it does work. I do know that a cycled hydro sponge will work as well. I have 8 of them in my breeding tanks, and if i need to start another tank, I just put one or two sponges in and it's good to go. IMO, this works better than Cycle or Bio Spira because it is an established bio film. The bacteria is free, we sometimes don't allow it enough time to grow.


----------



## Kyle2154

I retested all tank parameters just now:

Ammonia: 1
PH: 6.8
Nitrate: 10
Nitrite: 0

I added a dose of "cycle" to the bio-wheels. I'll check levels in the morning.

The piranha are white again, look pretty bad, maybe due to rise in PH?

Sorry I have not gotten around to tap parameters, I will. I know Nitrate was in the 5 range. I'll check PH tomorrow (thursday).

Kyle


----------



## barbianj

Ammonia is more toxic at higher Ph levels.


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> I retested all tank parameters just now:
> 
> Ammonia: 1
> PH: 6.8
> Nitrate: 10
> Nitrite: 0
> 
> I added a dose of "cycle" to the bio-wheels. I'll check levels in the morning.
> 
> The piranha are white again, look pretty bad, maybe due to rise in PH?
> 
> Sorry I have not gotten around to tap parameters, I will. I know Nitrate was in the 5 range. I'll check PH tomorrow (thursday).
> 
> Kyle


*2007-01-11*

My guess would be that the piranha are white again due to the W/C. You have used drastic changes to try to correct a bad situation. You really had no choice in this, but at the same time a drastic change in water chemistry will also stress the fish. Also, judging by the time you posted, could this have also been (in part, at least) due to the fact that it was first thing in the morning and they hadn't had enough time to colour up properly? In any case, while it is true that ammonia is more toxic at higher pH, it is generally considered to be non-toxic below a pH of 7 so I am not in agreement with barbianj [sorry







] on that issue (but it is a good reminder to be aware that *your* pH can't go much higher without it causing you a whole bunch of other problems). Also, I recommend that you rinse your test vials in distilled water to eliminate contaminants that could give you a false reading. Also, I do not use the same vial to test ammonia and pH - - the ammonia reagents are very alkaline and even with fairly good rinsing there seems to be enough residue to screw up the pH test.

I am definitely in agreement with barbianj regarding the use of a well seeded Hydro Sponge - - that would really give you a kick start. Cycle does work, but it is slow. The bacteria in the bottle are in spore form (Hagen now has an expiry date on the product, but it does not have to be refrigerated once opened as in the older formula) so they need some time to come to life and do their thing. One thing that is *essential* when using Cycle is that you must *shake the bottle vigorously* before you dose it out as the spores settle to the bottom of the container - - it is formulated this way so that the spores will not spring to life in the bottle. As I have said before, Bio Spira is not available in Canada, so I have no experience with it, however, live bacteria would be a much quicker route. Just as a side note, I like to re-dose bio-products monthly to keep the non-mutated strain in abundance.

I'll write some more once I know your kH readings.

Keep up the battle *!!*

Terry


----------



## barbianj

Didn't say Ph was at a dangerous level now. It was a general warning to be careful-so ha.









The white coloring early in the day is a good observation. I get up early to feed our baby piranhas and they are translucent white. If I saw them this color during the day, I would think they were sick! It takes them a good 30-45 minutes to wake up before they can eat. By this time their color is starting to return.

How is it going?


----------



## Kyle2154

I am going to test again tonight, I'm waiting on my kid to go to bed, he always knocks the test tubes all over. Anyways, like I said I'll test tonight, I go back to college tomorrow so I won't be able to post quite AS much, 24/7, but I will still be able to get on the internet every day and update you guys. I'll post in an edit what the parameters were, probably around 11 or midnight. I have done everything but the kh test, haven't bought one yet







I will, but I will also check nitrite and ph out of tap, I know that the nitrate was around 5 and ammonia was obviously nil.

Kyle


----------



## TerryMik

barbianj said:


> Didn't say Ph was at a dangerous level now. It was a general warning to be careful-so ha.:rasp:
> 
> The white coloring early in the day is a good observation. I get up early to feed our baby piranhas and they are translucent white. If I saw them this color during the day, I would think they were sick! It takes them a good 30-45 minutes to wake up before they can eat. By this time their color is starting to return.
> 
> How is it going?


*2007-01-11*

2-SHAY (Sorry, I don't know how to bring up an alternate "keyboard" on PC to spell it properly with the accented "e")[Ican hardly wait to get a Mac again]







. . . . . . But you have to give me half a point at least as I did say that it was a good reminder to Kyle that he can't let his pH get much higher.
















Things are going great with me (especially in the cheeky department - - hey, my parents did the best they could with the material they had to work with) . . . how are things with you?

Terry


----------



## barbianj

> 2-SHAY


 Haha!

My Ph is high-about 7.8 so I know the dangers. Haven't had to deal with Kh or Gh issues, so not too experienced there, but seems like Kyle is getting good advice. If you get a chance, could you post a pic of your fish and an overall of your tank? I know you are busy, but maybe there is something we can help with your setup. Pictures worth 1000 words and all.


----------



## Kyle2154

Tank Parameters:

Ammonia - 1.0 ~ 2.0
PH --------- 6.6
Nitrate ---- 10
Nitrite ----- 0

Tap Parameters:

PH --------- >7.6 (interesting)
Nitrate ---- 5 (tested a couple days ago)

My camera is charging, I don't know why, but I think it's a little screwed up. The tank looks good, clear, etc. It is interesting to see that PH is above 7.6, that explains why PH has gone up since the more drastic water changes. I hit the bio wheels with another dose of cycle today. I don't know if I should do water changes now or not, what do you guys think? When should I test to see if the tank can hold its own? Obviously I don't want to do 50% water changes every other day and dump $10 in chemicals in a day for the duration.

Also, my fish have not eaten a lot lately. On Jan. 7th they split 1 raw shrimp and yesterday I fed them a $4 koi, I know







feeders are bad







but they were in the same tank as the rest of the fish they sell regularly and they were only seperated with dividers so it shouldn't have been diseased, anyways - that is all they have eaten 1 shrimp and 1 koi that was heavily regurgitated (sp?) so I don't think it really did much, is it ok to slip them a piece of catfish or NO! should I 'stay the course' lol

I added 2 doses of AmQuel to the tank, to try to reduce Ammonia, again, it states clearly on the bottle that it eliminates Nitrite, Nitrate and Ammonia, so again I am wondering when I should wean the tank off of chemicals and let it work itself out.

Kyle


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> Tank Parameters:
> 
> Ammonia - 1.0 ~ 2.0
> PH --------- 6.6
> Nitrate ---- 10
> Nitrite ----- 0
> 
> Tap Parameters:
> 
> PH --------- >7.6 (interesting)
> Nitrate ---- 5 (tested a couple days ago)
> 
> My camera is charging, I don't know why, but I think it's a little screwed up. The tank looks good, clear, etc. It is interesting to see that PH is above 7.6, that explains why PH has gone up since the more drastic water changes. I hit the bio wheels with another dose of cycle today. I don't know if I should do water changes now or not, what do you guys think? When should I test to see if the tank can hold its own? Obviously I don't want to do 50% water changes every other day and dump $10 in chemicals in a day for the duration.
> 
> Also, my fish have not eaten a lot lately. On Jan. 7th they split 1 raw shrimp and yesterday I fed them a $4 koi, I know
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> feeders are bad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but they were in the same tank as the rest of the fish they sell regularly and they were only seperated with dividers so it shouldn't have been diseased, anyways - that is all they have eaten 1 shrimp and 1 koi that was heavily regurgitated (sp?) so I don't think it really did much, is it ok to slip them a piece of catfish or NO! should I 'stay the course' lol
> 
> I added 2 doses of AmQuel to the tank, to try to reduce Ammonia, again, it states clearly on the bottle that it eliminates Nitrite, Nitrate and Ammonia, so again I am wondering when I should wean the tank off of chemicals and let it work itself out.
> 
> Kyle


*2007-01-11/12*

Hi Kyle,

I just got back from a movie (Eragon) so I'm really beat - - I'll write you some more tomorrow, but I just want to suggest that you "stay the course" and not feed. As well, to answer your question briefly as to when you should see if the tank can hold it's own - - first of all, it will be a *minimum* of 10 to 14 days from the time you first added the cycle until the bacteria start to get a handle on the ammonia. As you test daily, you will begin to see that ammonia is taking a bit longer to rise & that nitrite is forming. Then, you can take a small sigh of relief - - *BUT*, don't back off when this happens as it will take a while for *everything* to stabilize - - you will still have about a 3 week battle with nitrite.

Keep in touch and let me know your kH readings as soon as you get them.

Until tomorrow,

Terry

*2007-01-12 *



*Kyle,*



*I must warn you that you are approaching a very dangerous stage in "fixing" your aquarium.*



Knowing that your tap pH is 7.6 I am going to guess that your hardness is around 3 or 4 degrees (kH) - - *(This is only a guess, so please test ASAP so that we know for sure)* so you must be *very cautious **with your water changes*. With your tank pH @ 6.8 you probably have close to 1 degree of kH (just a guess - testing is the only way to be sure). I would recommend that you do a maximum of a *25% W/C at a* *time, but 10 to 15% would be safer*. The bottom line is - - you don't want the pH to go above 7 as that is when the ammonia will become it's most dangerous. While the AmQuel is keeping it safe for now, as it's bond with the ammonia breaks you would have a very nasty situation if the pH were to be above 7. *It is better to do more frequent, smaller W/C than one big one.* Keep an eye on your pH and Hardness to guide you here. I know that this sounds like a lot of work, but considering how far you have come so far, I hope you will hang in. From now on, it is just a matter of sticking to a diligent routine of *testing and adding Cycle* *daily* and then doing small W/C as needed. 

Once I know your kH, I can help you to fine tune the routine a bit.



Cheers & continued good luck *!!* 





Terry


----------



## TerryMik

barbianj said:


> 2-SHAY
> 
> 
> 
> Haha!
> 
> My Ph is high-about 7.8 so I know the dangers. Haven't had to deal with Kh or Gh issues, so not too experienced there, but seems like Kyle is getting good advice. If you get a chance, could you post a pic of your fish and an overall of your tank? I know you are busy, but maybe there is something we can help with your setup. Pictures worth 1000 words and all.:nod:
Click to expand...

*2007-01-12*

Hi barbianj,

In 40 years of fish keeping, I've only taken a few pictures of my aquariums - - they've all been "filed" as they didn't turn out all that great. I have not yet moved into the age of digital photography either as I have so much on my plate that I don't have a lot of time to experiment with it. At the moment I only have three very sparsely populated tanks on the go (largest 30 gallons) and an experimental 60 gallon grow out system that I am establishing (I worked in aquarium manufacturing for a few years, so I have lots of ideas to play with)*!* However, my enthusiasm isn't what it has been in the past as the year 2005 was painfully tragic for me & I haven't fully recovered yet. Beside, I run the fish area in a LFS and have my own aquarium maintenance business, so I get a pretty good dose of aquariums anyway.

This hobby is a constant learning curve and it is great that these Forums exist so that we can all share our experiences and knowledge. In establishing the 60 Gallon grow out system, I ran into some issues that were unlike any that I have come across before, and found the staff @ Seachem to be very helpful (one of the bonuses of being in the Industry - - a whole new set of contacts is available to me) and a lot of what I have been writing to Kyle is based on what I have recently learned. Also, in dealing with customers on a daily basis, I have a pretty good idea as to what hurdles most people need to overcome to get the results they want, so that is part of why I am so long winded - - trying to prevent people from making the "next" mistake. Okay, I confess, I'm just naturally long winded as well - - but as long as I succeed at helping others, my day is complete and I hope I will be forgiven for my chattiness. Besides, I can't help it - - my middle name is "Too Much Information" (LOL) *!*

I'm also new to these Forums, so as I learn my way around, I hope to be able to participate more.

Anyway, I must head off to do a Maintenance Contract - - so here's wishing you an awesome day and perhaps we will "chat" again *!!*

Terry


----------



## Richardm

Hi - Sorry I'm new to this, could anybidy give me advice as the amount of cariba I can safely put in a tank?


----------



## Kyle2154

As I pointed out the AmQuel lowers Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite. Is something that is lowering Nitrate and Nitrite going to hurt the cause here. I will stick with what you recommended and only dose to lower Ammonia when it goes over 2.0 ppm and I will dose with Cycle every other day (just bought a bigger bottle). Tank still looks/appears great, I'll post the readings later tonight. I CAN'T FIND A KH TESTER!!!! the only one the store had was strips and it was a big bottle of all kinds of different test strips, kh, gh, ammonia, ph, etc. and it was like $25 so I wasn't going to buy that, so I drove to the other store but they didn't even have the strips, is it very crucial to know kh??? I will do a water change on monday, I don't want to boost ph anymore and I would prefer to wait until ph dips back below 6.2 or so, since my tap is going to raise it sooooo much.

Kyle

<edit> I wanted to take a second and point out how thankful I am to all of you providing input, I just realized how popular this topic is, according to my math (which isn't all that great) this topic has provided 5% of all views and 3% of all posts for the entire "water chemistry" empire. Thanks to all of you who have provided so much advice on what to do and how to do it. Soon I will pass this information around to those 'rookier' then I and I will remember the 'masters' who taught me.

Thanks!


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> As I pointed out the AmQuel lowers Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite. Is something that is lowering Nitrate and Nitrite going to hurt the cause here. I will stick with what you recommended and only dose to lower Ammonia when it goes over 2.0 ppm and I will dose with Cycle every other day (just bought a bigger bottle). Tank still looks/appears great, I'll post the readings later tonight. I CAN'T FIND A KH TESTER!!!! the only one the store had was strips and it was a big bottle of all kinds of different test strips, kh, gh, ammonia, ph, etc. and it was like $25 so I wasn't going to buy that, so I drove to the other store but they didn't even have the strips, is it very crucial to know kh??? I will do a water change on monday, I don't want to boost ph anymore and I would prefer to wait until ph dips back below 6.2 or so, since my tap is going to raise it sooooo much.
> 
> Kyle
> 
> <edit> I wanted to take a second and point out how thankful I am to all of you providing input, I just realized how popular this topic is, according to my math (which isn't all that great) this topic has provided 5% of all views and 3% of all posts for the entire "water chemistry" empire. Thanks to all of you who have provided so much advice on what to do and how to do it. Soon I will pass this information around to those 'rookier' then I and I will remember the 'masters' who taught me.
> 
> Thanks!


*2007-01-12*

Kyle,

That is totally the spirit - - it's a form of "Paying It Forward".

I understand your question regarding the potential for "harm" from a product that "eliminates" nitrite, etc. and I really can't give you an exact answer in relation to AmQuel. I would imagine they have contact information on their web site, but I've got a bit too much on my plate to dig into that right now. Perhaps you or another on here could check it out, and I'd certainly be interested in what Kordon has to say. One thing we must all keep in mind here is that claims on product bottles can be misleading. As an example, municipal water is often treated with Chloramine (a compound of Chlorine and Ammonia, which is more stable & therefore more effective as a disinfectant) rather than the traditional Chlorine by itself. Many water conditioning chemicals state that they eliminate Chloramine, which [technically] they do - - but in reality, they break the chlorine/ammonia bond, the de-chlorinating chemical removes the chlorine, leaving you with free ammonia. Knowing that, for those of you who have Chloramine in your municipal drinking water must now realise that those water conditioners do not do exactly as we were expecting. I think we have to always dig a bit deeper when reading what is on aquarium product bottles. I'm not saying that any of these companies (including Kordon) are trying to mislead us. They are providing the bare facts - - we have to figure out what info is missing & then decide on the value of the products. That is part of why this Forum exists - - so we can all educate ourselves and therefore make more informed decisions. A few things to ask Kordon would be*:*

1) How much nitrite does it eliminate?

2) Does it destroy it or simply neutralise it?

3) If it neutralises it, how long is it kept in this neutral state?

4) Can the bacteria truly and easily access the ammonia and nitrite when it is in the neutral form?
​
As I have mentioned before, I have done a lot of investigating regarding Seachem's AmGuard, so I can say with confidence that it will do the job you are trying to do. Until you get sufficient info from Kordon, I would suggest big time that you try to secure a supply of AmGuard. On the other hand, if you start to detect nitrite in your tank, then you know the cycle is rolling and AmQuel could be considered okay for the task at hand. Just for the record, I am not on the Seachem payroll (LOL) - - when I recommend a product, it is because I have personal experience and confidence in that product . . .

. . . and just to prove that I am not on the Seachem payroll - - I want to recommend that you try to get an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals kH test kit or a Tetra kH test kit (API is more economical than Tetra, but Tetra is set up so you can measure half degrees more easily - let me know if you want more info on that). Testing for kH is very important. It is something that you will have to monitor on an ongoing basis, considering the population of the tank & how much waste piranha produce. *I recommend that you do not let the pH drop below 6.5 - - that is why I suggested more frequent 10 to 15% W/C as that should keep your pH up without pushing it over 7. Please remember that the nitrifying bacteria will not work as efficiently at a lower pH.*



So, is your head spinning yet??? *!!* *







*

Have fun.

Terry


----------



## Kyle2154

....sigh*

I just checked parameters:

PH : 6.0
Ammonia : 1.0
Nitrite : 0

I guess a water change is in order to boost PH. Ill hit it with that 10 - 20% tomorrow. If tap is 8 a 25% should bring it back up to 6.5, maybe I need more then a 25%? Also when/if the ammonia problem is fixed it won't matter if PH dips below 6.5 right? that's only during this process? and why is PH so low anyways???

Kyle


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> ....sigh*
> 
> I just checked parameters:
> 
> PH : 6.0
> Ammonia : 1.0
> Nitrite : 0
> 
> I guess a water change is in order to boost PH. Ill hit it with that 10 - 20% tomorrow. If tap is 8 a 25% should bring it back up to 6.5, maybe I need more then a 25%? Also when/if the ammonia problem is fixed it won't matter if PH dips below 6.5 right? that's only during this process? and why is PH so low anyways???
> 
> Kyle


*2007-01-12*

I'd say play it safe & go with a 10 to 15% W/C. If that is not enough, you could always do another 10 to 15% the next day. Go at it like this & you reduce the chances of going above 7 and causing a huge catastrophe.

Once your ammonia situation has been resolved, you'll still need to keep your pH above 6.5 - - as said in previous posts (not to worry, there is a lot of stuff to take in here & I don't mind going over things- - it's impossible to learn all this in one read) the nitrifying bacteria do not work as efficiently in lower pH. *You need to always keep your pH above 6.5* - - I know that in the wild, pH would be far below that at times, but it is impossible to replicate the entire Amazon in an aquarium :laugh: - - furthermore, fish die in the wild when things go too far out of whack, too. Our job is to keep these beasts in the best conditions that we can - - they deserve it.









The pH is low because the kH is [probably] low. That's why I keep bugging you to get a kH test kit - - then I'll get into a bit more detail as to what is going on and what you can do about it . . . but lets take this one step at a time. Information overload will only hurt your brain
















Have a good weekend.

Terry


----------



## Kyle2154

Would it be terrible to just flat out assume that kh is low and treat for it, as opposed to me not being able to find a kh tester???

I know that may seem 'non-textbook' but I guess since I don't know what/how to do/treat for low kh I don't realize if there is a problem if it is treated for and low kh is not the problem.

changed what I would guess to be 10-12% of water, retested ammonia and PH, they were Am: 1.0 Ph: 6.0

I guess it wouldn't hurt to do another water change tomorrow, closer to that 20-30% mark since ph didn't even budge...?

I added a dose of cycle, 1/2 on the bio wheels and 1/2 where the water enters the filter so some can get caught up in the pads, I was gonna double dose, but don't want to waste it if ph is preventing it from working.

Kyle


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> Would it be terrible to just flat out assume that kh is low and treat for it, as opposed to me not being able to find a kh tester???
> 
> I know that may seem 'non-textbook' but I guess since I don't know what/how to do/treat for low kh I don't realize if there is a problem if it is treated for and low kh is not the problem.
> 
> changed what I would guess to be 10-12% of water, retested ammonia and PH, they were Am: 1.0 Ph: 6.0
> 
> I guess it wouldn't hurt to do another water change tomorrow, closer to that 20-30% mark since ph didn't even budge...?
> 
> I added a dose of cycle, 1/2 on the bio wheels and 1/2 where the water enters the filter so some can get caught up in the pads, I was gonna double dose, but don't want to waste it if ph is preventing it from working.
> 
> Kyle


*2007-01-13/14*

Hey, Kyle . . .

Testing is always the best way to go. However, in "desperate times" we sometimes have to go by instinct. I am quite certain that your kH is low, but it's possible that it is not as low as I am guessing. Please keep trying to find a kH test kit (and more AmGuard, at least until we get all the facts regarding AmQuel) and I will make a few suggestion that I hope will help you to get through this.

Think of kH as something that "holds" your pH (buffering capacity) - - your pH is not "holding", so we can guess that your kH is low. However, excessive amounts of Carbon Dioxide will cause pH to drop (due to the formation of Carbonic Acid) even in the presence of Carbonate Hardness. With a high population of fish - - plus a high population of different types of bacteria breaking down all varieties of waste products that the fish are pumping out, you could have significant Carbon Dioxide levels [we tend to forget that the bacteria are part of the system's "Bio-Load"] - - but we don't know the true "chemical picture" without testing.

We must also remember that the nitrifying bacteria need not only a reasonable pH, but also the minerals that "produce" the Carbonate Hardness, so at some point, it would be a good idea to get a kH test kit.

What to do until then? Let your pH be your guide. Without knowing your tap water kH, I would not do a W/C greater than 20% - - just so you don't push your pH above 7. If finding the time (at the right time) is an issue, would you be able to do a 20% W/C early in the day, then another @ night if need be? Eight or ten hours between W/C is not going to stress the fish so much while still having the effect of a bigger water change. If you are unable to do the (safer) two W/C, then the next best thing would be this*:* If your tap water has a pH of 7.6 (?) then you probably have 3 or 4 degrees of kH coming in to your tank, so a 25% would boost you to around the one degree mark, which is not likely to push your water over 7.

I know this is a ton of work for you right now, but I'm just trying to make suggestions such that you wont encounter other problems in trying to fix this all. Peace of mind (for both of us) is worth a lot, too.

Keep hanging in. Keep checking your nitrite, too. I think you are wise to conserve the Cycle until the pH is in a better range - -but don't worry too much as the bacteria can go about a week before they "starve".

I hope you start to see some good signs this coming week.

Terry


----------



## Kyle2154

I was at the pet store again, just to verify they don't have a kh tester, I am thinking about just locating and ordering one online right now, I'll let ya know. I performed a 10-15% water change just now, I am hoping to do this every day, I long for those weeks I will only have to do a 40% change once a week, treat the new water with dechlorinator and done. Once a month add some cycle, go through the filters, thats it. I hope I get to this point soon, about an hour after the water change tomorrow I'll decide whether to add cycle (depending on ph) and treat for ammonia. BTW AmGuard has been delivered so the little bit of AmQuel left will have to sit, I'll be treating ammonia rises above 2.0 with AmGuard from now on.

Question - Would it be better to treat the new water comming into the tank with some sort of de-chlorinator only, or is treating with AmGuard just fine?? As far as AmGuard's effect on nitrate/nitrite etc.

Kyle


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> I was at the pet store again, just to verify they don't have a kh tester, I am thinking about just locating and ordering one online right now, I'll let ya know. I performed a 10-15% water change just now, I am hoping to do this every day, I long for those weeks I will only have to do a 40% change once a week, treat the new water with dechlorinator and done. Once a month add some cycle, go through the filters, thats it. I hope I get to this point soon, about an hour after the water change tomorrow I'll decide whether to add cycle (depending on ph) and treat for ammonia. BTW AmGuard has been delivered so the little bit of AmQuel left will have to sit, I'll be treating ammonia rises above 2.0 with AmGuard from now on.
> 
> Question - Would it be better to treat the new water comming into the tank with some sort of de-chlorinator only, or is treating with AmGuard just fine?? As far as AmGuard's effect on nitrate/nitrite etc.
> 
> Kyle


*2007-01-14*

Hey Kyle,

Keep hanging in - - with all you are learning, you'll never be in this situation again, once you get everything stable.









It should be fine to use regular chlorine remover when you do a W/C - - *unless your tap water is treated with chloramine !!* If you do not know, fill a bucket with tap water & treat it with your regular dechlorinator. Let it sit for five minutes, then test for ammonia. If no ammonia shows, then you are good to go with the regular chlorine remover for your W/C - - that way you can save the AmGuard to keep the ammonia under control.

I'm also wondering if you are testing before & after each W/C ??? I'd suggest re-testing about 20 to 30 minutes after the W/C, that way you can track how much things are changing each time.

I'm glad you're going to do the + 15% daily W/C - - I think that will do a lot to help you get things under control more quickly, as well as keeping your fish happier. While you are ordering your kH test kit, perhaps consider getting some more AmGuard - - it's a good product to have on hand for emergencies (and you may still need more before this is all over) & the shipping cost shouldn't be any extra, on top of the kH kit.

Keep a positive outlook, as I think you are on your way







[although it will still be a while







before things are stable] and the rest of this voyage is just mechanics.

Let me know how things go.

Terry


----------



## Kyle2154

before:

*Ph: 6.0*
*Ammonia: 2.0 - 4.0*
Nitrate: 10
Nitrite: 0

Performed a 35% water change, added 200 ml of AmGuard (40 capfuls) to treat to lower ammonia 3 ppm. Added 4 capfuls of AmQuel because I was unsure whether or not AmGuard would eliminate new chlorine comming into the tank.

20 mins. After:

*Ph: 6.6*
*Ammonia: < 1.0 * 
Nitrate: 10
Nitrite: 0

It's obvious I have bullet proof ways to raise ph and lower ammonia in a heartbeat, which is great.
Since ph was temporarily in a good range I added a dose of 'cycle' to the filters.

Kyle


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## stc101

Man, Kyle

I realize in advance that this post will not be beneficial in resolving your issues but I want to say that I just read the entire thread, and even though it is not my tank, I feel a high level of stress just from reading about your issues. I want to commend you for taking on this task and sticking to it with such determination.

Hope you see resolution soon and good luck to those tough fish you have there!


----------



## Kyle2154

Yeah, it's rough, luckily I've been getting advice all the way through, and I cherish the moments (like after water changes/treatments) in which the piranha are much more active and happy, it's like a circus sprung about out of relief. I hope to see some nitrates soon, I'm going to test parameters again tonight, see what has happened with ph and ammonia.

Question for Terry -







- now that I know I can control ph and ammonia within minutes, should I just focus on keeping ph in the 6.5 - 6.7 range and keep ammonia as low as possible (sub 2.0). Is controlling just those two things enough??? I'll continue to add 'cycle' when parameters are right, along with only feeding the piranha on sunday, but as far as the big picture, can I just fight the ammonia and ph battle for the most part?

Kyle

It's frustrating because I have been scheduling a group order for January 29th, which means I was hoping to take out my reds (all six of them) and add 2 or 3 more caribe, so I would only have 6 fish (all caribe) in my tank, looks like my plan is going belly up. However, I could always just rid myself of the 6 reds, to a good home of course, and just wait with my 3 caribe to add more when the tank is ready.......... *pounds on desk*


----------



## Kyle2154

Checked Ammonia and Ph again just now:

Ammonia: 1.0 - 2.0
Ph: 6.4

I am going to hit the tank with another 125 ml of AmGuard, due to the fact Ammonia is still creeping up. I can't believe this bullsh*t, I hate this tank, I wanna torch this POS and call it quits. I swear I've put 100 hours into fixing this damn tank.

Now that I've ranted some, I do think I'm going to check all parameters again tomorrow, if Ph has dipped sub 6.2 as I'm sure it will, I'll do another water change, if not it will be a miracle.

Kyle


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> Checked Ammonia and Ph again just now:
> 
> Ammonia: 1.0 - 2.0
> Ph: 6.4
> 
> I am going to hit the tank with another 125 ml of AmGuard, due to the fact Ammonia is still creeping up. I can't believe this bullsh*t, I hate this tank, I wanna torch this POS and call it quits. I swear I've put 100 hours into fixing this damn tank.
> 
> Now that I've ranted some, I do think I'm going to check all parameters again tomorrow, if Ph has dipped sub 6.2 as I'm sure it will, I'll do another water change, if not it will be a miracle.
> 
> Kyle


*2007-01-15*

Hey Dude . . . I hear your frustration. I struggled with a tank from the end of this past July to the end of October . . . that's where I learned the differences between the AmmoLock and the AmGuard & that's why I recommend the AmGuard so much.

Your earlier post regarding focusing on the pH and the ammonia is not a bad plan . . . as long as you keep all of these interrelationships in mind, just so you don't create a situation that is worse than before. You can buffer the pH with Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda - - pure, with no additives). Two teaspoons (10 cc) should raise your tank by about *.2* ("point two") on the pH scale, but it wont hold it there for very long. You can reduce acidity to some extent by changing your Activated Carbon every two weeks (only while you are dealing with this situation - then, with three Magnum 350's, I'd change it every 6 to 8 weeks. Better yet, change one every two weeks - that way you have relatively fresh carbon but don't wipe out all the bacterial colonies from the filters). I'd still encourage you to do a W/C every few days (while this ammonia thing is going on) even if the pH is respectable - - remember that the bacteria need the minerals, and it is my guess that your tap water is providing those minerals (you know, this is just leading up to a







about the kH test kit)







. . .

I know that there are lots of us that have had this struggle, and we all know that hanging in is the only way to go. *I'm hoping others "out there" (I've already seen one post) who are reading this will pass along some words of encouragement based on their own experiences. *When do you have to commit to the new fish?

Keep in touch . . . let me know your nitrite reading each time you post if you can (nitrate isn't all that important at this point). "Keep your chin up" (LOL) & Good Luck.

Terry


----------



## myles

Hey there everyone, jsut givign a shoutout to Terry and everyone. Yeah kyle i feel ur pain cycling a tank can suck for a wile, it takes a good chunk of time, but its worht it for the fish tho. the sad thing is u really have to establish 2 if not more bacterias, and u cant establish all of them at the same time its like stages, and even keeping the bacteria happy cna be a challenge sometimes. to give u and example of th kH, and its purpose in this storey, il give u a expample. I work with Terry in the lfs, and our feeder tank is a 60g overly stoked tank, now its well establish heavy filtration and a massive bioload, now the funny thing is, is that if i cna keep even a kh of 1 or 2 degrees and a resenable pH I have no problums with amminia or nitrite. but the kH depleats drasticly so i have to do constand water changes and add calcium carbanate(sp?) to keep it steady, because once the kH dropes too low the bacteria cant breed and flurish, so i start getting ammonia, and nitrite spikes. so in other words u can add a biological product of your choice and jsut dump it in ur tank till your hearts content but if u have a low kh and ph it wont really do anything.
Myles


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## Kyle2154

Tested Before:

Ph: 6.0
Ammonia: 1.0 - 2.0

Performed 35% water change to jack ph back up. Treated incomming water with an actual chlorine and chlorimine treater. Treated with the remainder of AmGuard (approx. 175 ml)

Tested 20 min After:

Ammonia: 1.0
Ph: 6.8
Nitrite: 0

Since Ph was in a better range, I added a dose of 'Cycle'

Kyle

Note: 2 of the caribe have little tiny white dots on them, approx. 5 on each, around the eye, humeral spot area.


----------



## barbianj

At the point you are at, I would very seriously start looking for some established filter media. I seems as though you can keep your water parameters relatively stable given the conditions, but it can take 4-6 weeks to fully cycle a tank, and you have no nitrite reading. This means you are still in the first stage of the cycle. The bacteria that feed on the nitrite are not the same as the ones that feed on the ammonia. There are no nitrites, therefore no food for that bacteria. If you had some fully mature bio media and stopped using the chemicals, your tank would clear up right now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but otherwise, you will be in for another four weeks or so of this.


----------



## TerryMik

barbianj said:


> At the point you are at, I would very seriously start looking for some established filter media. I seems as though you can keep your water parameters relatively stable given the conditions, but it can take 4-6 weeks to fully cycle a tank, and you have no nitrite reading. This means you are still in the first stage of the cycle. The bacteria that feed on the nitrite are not the same as the ones that feed on the ammonia. There are no nitrites, therefore no food for that bacteria. If you had some fully mature bio media and stopped using the chemicals, your tank would clear up right now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but otherwise, you will be in for another four weeks or so of this.


*2007-01-16* 



Hi barbianj,



I totally agree that established media would be an awesome help here. *However*, I do not agree that it is time to stop using the chemicals. If the ammonia is not kept under 2 ppm, the bacteria, even in an established media, will die, so I recommend using the AmGuard, as needed, to keep the ammonia below 2 ppm. As well, I feel that the pH should be in the 6.5 to 7.0 range to keep it where the bacteria will be at their most efficient without going into a range where the ammonia will become toxic. Knowing how frustrating this is becoming for Kyle, I felt that the use of the Sodium Bicarb would help to achieve the desired pH with a lot less work. W/C are still the best way to go, as I am guessing that his tap water has a few degrees of kH, thus providing the bacteria with their needed minerals. Another [chemical] alternative is *Hagen**'s "kH* *Booster/pH Stabilizer"*. This would buffer the pH as well as increase the kH. As long as W/C are not abandoned, this would be a very acceptable way to go.



Kyle - - pay attention to what barbianj is saying here. Established media will really speed things up for you. As long as you follow the guidelines above, your tank will be back within an acceptable range much faster (but not "right now", or instantly). Ask friends & acquaintances if they have any active media that you can borrow - - maybe some filter pads that they are getting ready to change - - anything that you can slip around the sleeve in your Magnums - - just ask them to leave it dirty, keep it in aquarium water & exposed to air, such as in the bottom of a clean, detergent free bucket in an inch or so of water. I am sure using the word Goldfish in a Piranha Forum will bring out the Exorcists, but media from a Goldfish tank would be marvellous. Those waste factories will push any media to its maximum efficiency *!!* 



Cheers to you both *!!* 





Terry


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> Tested Before:
> 
> Ph: 6.0
> Ammonia: 1.0 - 2.0
> 
> Performed 35% water change to jack ph back up. Treated incomming water with an actual chlorine and chlorimine treater. Treated with the remainder of AmGuard (approx. 175 ml)
> 
> Tested 20 min After:
> 
> Ammonia: 1.0
> Ph: 6.8
> Nitrite: 0
> 
> Since Ph was in a better range, I added a dose of 'Cycle'
> 
> Kyle
> 
> Note: 2 of the caribe have little tiny white dots on them, approx. 5 on each, around the eye, humeral spot area.


*2007-01-16*

Kyle,

I'm presuming that you get an email notification every time a reply is posted to you, but probably not a notification anytime anybody posts on this topic (I'm new to these Forums, so I'm only guessing how it works - - I need a Forum that helps people deal with Forums [LOL] *!!*

I posted a reply to barbianj that I would like you to read as she continues to bring up points that should not be overlooked.

Good Luck.

Terry


----------



## barbianj

Yeah, I had heard about the bacteria dying over so many ppm, but I am only speaking from personal experience and from a one time ocurrance. My ammonia was well over 2ppm when I added the bio spira. I was in the same situation and could not continue the water changes. I stopped the ammo lock, added bio spira, and my ammonia dropped within 2-3 days. In terms of this nightmare, it seeded like right now. I am a little worried about the white spots. I have seen those in advanced cases of ammonia poisoning.

But in either case, we do agree that established bio media will greatley help, so, Kyle, go get some!


----------



## Kyle2154

I do have two little tanks, a 20 and a 29. the 20 has one little baby chiclid in it and the 29 has a caribe in it, should I just take out those filter cartridges and put them in my tank??? Also, where the heck do I put them? Just in one of my filters or what? Will they do enough?

Secondly I don't even know if those tanks are established, I'm assuming the 20 is but I don't know about the 29, how do I check? If there is no ammoia in them then they're good to go?


----------



## Kyle2154

Tested ammonia and ph again just now.

Ammonia: 1.0 - 2.0 (though my friend was over and thinks it may have been higher, maybe it has been higher all along?!?! and I just can't really see the shade?!?!)

Ph: 6.8

- I dumped in the rest of my AmQuel and I will test ammonia again in 20 mintues and post in an edit what the new ammonia is.

- I called Seachem and asked them where the heck I could order a 2 L of AmGuard and basically they just told me to call around...









- Also I need to know about the filter cartridges in my other 2 tanks. They are a 20 and 29 and I haven't tested them. If there is no ammonia should I just put them in my penguins tonight?

<edit>
20 minutes later:

ammonia: 1.0 - (no question, right at 1.0)

I need someone to help me, I can order 250 ml of AmGuard or 250 g or AmGuard. Please see the links, to me, it looks like 1 treatment of the ml version will lower ammonia 1 ppm (67.5 ml would be that treatment) however 1 treatment of the AmGuard g version would treat for 1 ppm as well, however I don't know how much that is, alls it says is "each level measure". Why does this matter? Well the 250 g is $19.35 and the 250 ml is about $6.20. Using my rationale it seems like the grams version must go a lot farther, jeez or someone is getting ripped off, am I correct? if so I will place the order tonight, along with a kh test, please help, an explanation would be great. Look at it this way, a 250 ml bottle will lower my 135 gallon tank a TOTAL of 3.7 ppm of ammonia, I can't see anywhere that tells me what the grams version will do in total.

http://www.dtpetsupplies.com/catalog/Addit...ard-250g-88-oz/

Kyle


----------



## Kyle2154

I know I've been throwing a lot of questions around, but heres another one, let's go back to the filtration question, not the one about filter cartridges, the one about a whole new filter. Should I just go out and get a 50 - 70 gallon tank canister filter and throw it on? I don't have any room on the back for another penguin, what do you think? Would a gravel filter hurt more then it would help?

Basically a canister seems like a waste of money unless I spend like $200. The two people running both of my local fish store stated, when asked, that "An undergravel filter will help lower the ammonia" Basically after MY research I found that the little nasty waste sheet on the bottom carries the water down through the beneficial bacteria and can help reduce ammonia, and then pumps it back out via air bubbles.

Kyle

Don't forget my previous posts please...


----------



## TerryMik

barbianj said:


> Yeah, I had heard about the bacteria dying over so many ppm, but I am only speaking from personal experience and from a one time ocurrance. My ammonia was well over 2ppm when I added the bio spira. I was in the same situation and could not continue the water changes. I stopped the ammo lock, added bio spira, and my ammonia dropped within 2-3 days. In terms of this nightmare, it seeded like right now. I am a little worried about the white spots. I have seen those in advanced cases of ammonia poisoning.
> 
> But in either case, we do agree that established bio media will greatley help, so, Kyle, go get some!


*2007-01-17*

Hey barbianj,

I'd love to try out the Bio Spira some day. Hopefully it will be available in Canada at some point. I suspect that there may be some regulatory stuff for Marineland to clear & they would need to weigh out the cost of doing that in terms of the potential revenue from our rather small market up here. Also could be some issues with distribution as I understand that it has to remain refrigerated until it is put into the aquarium. In any event, I will remain hopeful. Perhaps I can check the current status with some of our distributors up here. I think there are some commercial trade shows coming up.

I don't know if Kyle has posted pictures of the "white spots" - - do you think it might be ammonia burn?

Terry


----------



## Leasure1

If the white spots in question look like the white spots that have been showing up on all the juvie cariba imported within the last 2 months....then no, it's not the ammonia. It is a fungus on parasite eggs that you cannot remove, and no meds have worked so far. Go to disease and parasite. There are a few diff threads on the topic on the first 2 pages. See if that is what they look like.

And wasn't it me that told you to 100% get some bio-spira Kyle? I told you it was worth it's weight in gold.....if not more. You should have listened to the great wise one the first time I told you to buy it. Would have saved you tons of time, and like 5 pages of post space. LOL


----------



## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> I know I've been throwing a lot of questions around, but heres another one, let's go back to the filtration question, not the one about filter cartridges, the one about a whole new filter. Should I just go out and get a 50 - 70 gallon tank canister filter and throw it on? I don't have any room on the back for another penguin, what do you think? Would a gravel filter hurt more then it would help?
> 
> Basically a canister seems like a waste of money unless I spend like $200. The two people running both of my local fish store stated, when asked, that "An undergravel filter will help lower the ammonia" Basically after MY research I found that the little nasty waste sheet on the bottom carries the water down through the beneficial bacteria and can help reduce ammonia, and then pumps it back out via air bubbles.
> 
> Kyle
> 
> Don't forget my previous posts please...


*2007-01-17*

Perhaps if you contact Seachem again & ask them the names of the wholesale distributors that supply your area you could contact these companies to find out which of their customers carry the AmGuard in the size you need. The powdered AmGuard is more concentrated, thus the difference in price. I haven't worked it out, but the cost per dose is probably about the same - - the dry may be a little cheaper as the shipping cost in relation to the cost of materials is probably less (just a guess). I don't have the data you need in terms of how big "a measure" is but if you go on the Seachem web site "Contact" area you can send them an email. I have found them to be very helpful - - besides being chemists, they are all "Fish Geeks" like us.

As for your questions about under gravel filters,* I personally avoid them like the plague.* While they do an excellent job of bio-filtration, they are too efficient for their own good, IMO. Keep in mind that I live in an area with very soft water, so with the rapid depletion of kH, pH crashes, wiping out the nitrifying bacteria etc, etc (you know the story too well by now) [lol]. Also, all the organic sludge that accumulates under the plate is not accessible for removal - - other than stripping the tank down, a horrendous and futile effort that ends up wiping out your nitrifying culture.

I realise from your post that I have been in error in terms of your current filtration. I thought you had Magnum 350's. The Penguin filters should be easy to seed with dirty filter elements from established tanks. Just slide them in behind the existing cartridges & they will do the job . . . just follow the directions that I laid out in one of my recent posts/replies. The cartridges in your smaller tanks will not be capable of providing all of the bio-filtration that you need for your big tank simply because they have not been exposed to the same bio-load & therefore don't have a high enough population of bacteria on them - - they are physically smaller than would be needed for a tank of your size. *However,* if you cannot acquire larger, better seeded media, I would *try the ones that you have*. They should help. Can you get the Bio Spira? barbianj has had great luck with it & I have heard that others have as well. It sounds like it is a worthwhile product. As for adding another filter, I would suggest you bring your total water flow to 1350 gph or more[edit: see my closing remarks regarding updating me on your current filtration]. Beyond that, go for something that will boost your biological filtration and/or chemical filtration. I am not a big fan of Fluval in general, but they do provide excellent bio-filtration and you can customise the media very easily as you can put what ever media you choose into each basket. When you buy any filter, ignore the manufacturer's claim as to what size of tank they say it is good for - - that is just a marketing claim and may or may not be valid. Check out flow rate, versatility (types & volume of media that can be installed) and potential for biological filtration. Do keep in mind that the better the bio-filtration, the more you will have to watch your pH & kH. I am currently investigating a sump type multi-purpose filter by Tom/Oscar. It can be installed without drilling your tank and has some unique features. I will post an opinion once I do some more reading.

*For your more immediate needs*, adding another filter will not be a great benefit IMO just because it will take time to seed - - you need to get the bio-filtration up to speed ASAP. So, look into getting Bio Spira and dirty filter pads. Also, if you could refresh me as to what filters you currently have (Model # & flow rate if you can) I will review and make any suggestions that I think will help you in the long run.

I hope I have answered all of your questions tonight - - I'm bagged & must hit the hay. I will log in again tomorrow evening.

Terry


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## Leasure1

undergravel filters are for goldfish, not P's. They are way to much hassle, and the ammount of food and waste in the tank is way to high to rely on an UG filter.


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## Devon Amazon

*2007-01-18*

Dear Readers

Terrymik is my new favourite poster

Neal


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## barbianj

Maybe Leasure1 knows something about a shipment of fish that I don't, but here is a picture of our fish from way back when we learned our lesson about the nitrogen cycle. When the ammonia poisoning worsened, the fish had these white patches. We initially thought they had a fungus infection, but the fungus medication did not work at all. Whebn the ammonia proble was corrected, the eyes and skin cleared up very quickly. In any case whether the spots were a secondary infection or directly from ammonia, the initial problem was ammonia poisoning.









Like TerryMik said, more filtration will not help with the ammonia problem right now, but you will need more filtration than what you have.

As far as the Bio Spira is concerned, it did work well, but not as well as mature sponge filters in my experience. Like TerryMik stated, you can put mature bio media in your tank, but there may not be enough of them to handle your current bio load. You would go through a mini cycle while more bacteria grow, but nothing like you are experiencing now. Two or three mature sponge filters in your tank would really, really help. They are easier to find than bio spira and much cheaper.


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## Kyle2154

Just a small update on what has been going on. I realize this topic is beginning to get long and drawn out and seemingly in a circle.

However:

- I have placed a fairly large order of AmGuard that is being special order 500g. 10g is said to reduce 1ppm ammonia per 200 gallons, so... 500/10 = 50, 50*200 = 10,000 gallons. WHEN it gets here I will be able to lower my tank a total of 75 ppm of ammonia.

- In the same order I have ordered a kh tester.

- The last water change I did was on Tuesday (Jan. 16th) and since then the ph and ammonia has held steady at ~6.4 and ~1.0, it is nice to see that ph is holding better.

- AmmoLock will be what I use while I wait for my AmGuard to get here, and today I did treat the tank with AmmoLock to try to rid the tank of toxic ammonia.

I am trying to get to the point of only doing 2 water changes a week, although I am playing this by the level of ph. I don't want ph to get around 7.0 and since it is hold steady at around 6.4 it is making me weary of dumping in the tap at +7.6.

Kyle


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## Kyle2154

I added two very small pieces of driftwood, yesterday, I don't know if the results have been catastrophic. The readings for the tank were the same as they had been before I put the wood in, 6.4 and 1.0, now things have gone to hell. I checked the parameters today and ammonia was 8.0 and the ph was 6.0. I didn't really panic, and I checked nitrite, 0, darn, I still wasn't terribly concerned. Suddenly I noticed that the reds had a lot of dark/black around their gill area, very dark. I even noticed one of the caribe picking at it on one of the reds. I paniced and performed a 35% water change, I haven't checked parameters yet as I HAVE to go to bed, but the reds are still dark by their gills, WTF. Why has ammonia spiked if nitrite isn't up, ph dropping wasn't a suprise with its tendency to and driftwood but what's up with ammonia worse then ever again? and this dark and seemingly flaking gill area.

After the water change I added 2 doses of AmGuard which the label states will neutralize 2.0 ppm, and added the dechlorinator.

I am within about a week or two of pulling the plug on this tank and starting over, selling the fish and f*ck it

Kyle


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## Tinkerbelle

well... driftwood releases tannins, which soften the water considerably. i'm not sure thats exactly what you wanted to do, was it???


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## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> I added two very small pieces of driftwood, yesterday, I don't know if the results have been catastrophic. The readings for the tank were the same as they had been before I put the wood in, 6.4 and 1.0, now things have gone to hell. I checked the parameters today and ammonia was 8.0 and the ph was 6.0. I didn't really panic, and I checked nitrite, 0, darn, I still wasn't terribly concerned. Suddenly I noticed that the reds had a lot of dark/black around their gill area, very dark. I even noticed one of the caribe picking at it on one of the reds. I paniced and performed a 35% water change, I haven't checked parameters yet as I HAVE to go to bed, but the reds are still dark by their gills, WTF. Why has ammonia spiked if nitrite isn't up, ph dropping wasn't a suprise with its tendency to and driftwood but what's up with ammonia worse then ever again? and this dark and seemingly flaking gill area.
> 
> After the water change I added 2 doses of AmGuard which the label states will neutralize 2.0 ppm, and added the dechlorinator.
> 
> I am within about a week or two of pulling the plug on this tank and starting over, selling the fish and f*ck it
> 
> Kyle


*2007-01-20*

Sorry, I may seem a bit blunt tonight, but I must hit the hay as well.

As Tinkerbelle is saying in a very polite way, *wood was a bad idea.* Besides messing up your pH, it has provided more organic matter to break down, hence higher ammonia.

Please do not use the AmoLock - - it ties up the ammonia so that the bacteria cannot get at it - - you'll never get nitrite that way. Uses the AmGuard as it leaves the ammonia available to the bacteria. Also, when the ammonia is locked up like that (with AmoLock), there's no point putting in Cycle or even your dirty (seeded) filter media. *Did you get some dirty media into your tank yet?*

*I need to know what kinds of filters you have & how many.*

*Buffer the kH and/or do W/C.*

Terry


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## Leasure1

I could have sworn that you said you used the Bio-spira and the tank cycled in 2 days. Where the hell did I get that from. Sorry man. I still think it would be your best bet. I can't belive this is taking so long. maybe there is something in your water preventing the cycle. Have you tried useing bottled water?

And take the filter cartrage out of your smaller tanks and put all the bacteria you can get off of them into your big tank by rinsing the filter pads in the tank water.


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## Kyle2154

I know I shouldn't use Ammolock but thats all I got until my order of AmGuard gets here. Also I knew driftwood would have its effect on my water, but I guess I didn't realize the severity. I am thinking about taking out 5 of my reds so I only have 4 piranha for this battle, does this seem like a good idea? When AmGuard gets here I will be able to use it for a long time as I have placed a huge order. I will track Ph and ammonia until it gets here, and do water changes accordingly. I will not add ammolock and use water changes alone to bring up ph/down ammonia, obviously I will hit the water with dechlorinator. I'll go over the tank and filters tonight to verify nothing is preventing the tank from cycling.

Kyle


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## TerryMik

Leasure1 said:


> I could have sworn that you said you used the Bio-spira and the tank cycled in 2 days. Where the hell did I get that from. Sorry man. I still think it would be your best bet. I can't belive this is taking so long. maybe there is something in your water preventing the cycle. Have you tried useing bottled water?
> 
> And take the filter cartrage out of your smaller tanks and put all the bacteria you can get off of them into your big tank by rinsing the filter pads in the tank water.


*2007-01-21*

It was barbianj that made that post - I can't get Bio-Spira up here in Canada, so I have no personal experience with it, but I've heard a lot of good things about it. It makes sense that it would work, being a live bacteria as opposed to a dormant bacteria (in spore form) as we find with Cycle (which has to "come to life" and then colonize the aquarium). In any event, I'd suggest adding the filter media directly to the existing filters rather than just rinsing them into the filter. Nitrosomonas & Nitrobacter colonize in a "Gel" that protects them from environmental conditions to a degree, therefore adding the filter pads directly will leave the colonies undisturbed.

Terry


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## TerryMik

Kyle2154 said:


> I know I shouldn't use Ammolock but thats all I got until my order of AmGuard gets here. Also I knew driftwood would have its effect on my water, but I guess I didn't realize the severity. I am thinking about taking out 5 of my reds so I only have 4 piranha for this battle, does this seem like a good idea? When AmGuard gets here I will be able to use it for a long time as I have placed a huge order. I will track Ph and ammonia until it gets here, and do water changes accordingly. I will not add ammolock and use water changes alone to bring up ph/down ammonia, obviously I will hit the water with dechlorinator. I'll go over the tank and filters tonight to verify nothing is preventing the tank from cycling.
> 
> Kyle


*2007-01-21*

Kyle,

If you take your 5 Reds out, I'm guessing that you would put them into your smaller tanks. I think you said one was a 29 Gallon (?) . . . if so, this _*might*_ support one 4" P if you didn't feed & _*if*_ the tank was @ full biological capacity - - which it probably *isn't* as it hasn't had a full population within the past couple of weeks. You might want to try transferring one - - but this will tax the 29G to it's max, so you'll have to carefully monitor & be prepared to do heavy W/C on it too. You might be setting yourself up for a lot more work.

Let us know what filters you have. We might be able to make some suggestions to help you maximize there effectiveness.

Keep hanging in.

Terry


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## Kyle2154

on the 135 I have 3 penguin 350 filters from marineland. On my 29 and 20 gallon tanks, I'm not too sure as I am not there right now. I know the 29 gallon and 20 gallon have 40 gallon filters on them, but I'm not sure of the brand. Secondly I know that I could place the filter cartridges from them between the penguin cartridge and bio wheel (there is plenty of room). However I am still wondering if those tanks are cycled, as you stated, probably not. What do I test to make sure they are, just make sure no nitrite and no ammonia? If that is the case I can put the pads in for good tonight. Also I was not intending on putting the reds in my 29 gallon, I was talking about just getting rid of them all together, lfs, buyer, etc.

At this point options like those are growing by the day. I am even considering emptying the tank, draining, removing gravel, adding new, total cleanse of filter, re-filling and starting the cycling process from scratch. Don't know how much more I can take.

Kyle







<--- my current mood, lol


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## barbianj

You know that Ammo Lock, Amguard, Amquel, or whatever chemical that you put in your tank is JUST A TEMPORARY BANDAID! It will help to switch your filter media, but that was supporting a smaller bio load, it will still need to grow (mini-cycle) to support the load of your bigger P's. You should be testing ALL of your tanks, btw. Emptying your tank and starting over would not help, because you would need to introduce an ammonia source anyway.

If I were you, I would go to the lfs and beg, if necessary, for filter media and put an end to it.


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## Kyle2154

I took out all the filters and looked them over (don't worry they were cleaned/rinsed with tank water) and they seemed to be in great condition, no food lodged, even smelled neutral (not at all). I am assuming I have the right idea with 'filter media', you are in reference to the cartridges right? I know it's what I should be pursuing, but how the hell is anyone gonna have used filter media they don't want for themselves.

I have heard that while a tank is cycling that water changes should not be performed, if I cease feedings should I not change the water as much/at all. One quote on this site, which I don't have readily available said that if water changes are taking place that it will take forever to cycle the tank. I want this tank cycled ASAP, and to me, as high as my ammonia is, won't my tank cycle if I just LEAVE IT ALONE!?

I know that bio-spira is becomming a common, almost unanimous, suggestion, but I can't help but think that money is getting to be an issue here, I don't want to add such an expensive product when it probably won't even work. Also filter media seems to be another great option, which I will pursue, but again who is just going to have those readily available?

I would guess that, even though it is just a bandaid, AmGuard will be here in 2 weeks. I expect that to be my last major purchase for this current situation.

- Will the tank cycle if just left alone for a long period of time?

- Would the tank cycle if ALL fish were taken out and the tank was left alone for a long period of time?

Kyle


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## barbianj

> - Will the tank cycle if just left alone for a long period of time?


Yes, as long as you have an ammonia source, it will usually cycle in 4-6 weeks.



> - Would the tank cycle if ALL fish were taken out and the tank was left alone for a long period of time?


No, not unless you do a fishless cycle, which means you must add liquid ammonia.

If your lfs has something like this Hydro Sponge or similar, offer them to buy a new one in place of their old one. You have six bio-wheels. Offer to swap some of them. Last choice, you could put some cycled filter floss or other media behind the cartridge in your Penguins. There is not a whole lot of room, but you have three of them. Check with a local fish club or a friend who has fish. A lfs here has hundreds of freshwater tanks with one small sponge filter in each and the water is crystal clear in every tank.


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## LGHT

Hahah this post is amazing. I can't recall how many times I posted how to get a tank to cycle quickly (less than a week) and exactly how to do it with Bio-Spira, but it never fails that somoene tries to take a short cut and ends up starting over months later.



Leasure1 said:


> And wasn't it me that told you to 100% get some bio-spira Kyle? I told you it was worth it's weight in gold.....if not more. You should have listened to the great wise one the first time I told you to buy it. Would have saved you tons of time, and like 5 pages of post space. LOL


Bro you need to start using the search feature more. Keeping fish is suppose to be fun and relaxing hobby not a all out war against water.


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## BlackSunshine

yeah why is this post still going? It wa a horribly simple problem with a horribly simple soloution. ppl have over complicated the issue with long drawn out postings of jibberish and all sorts of bandaid soloutions have been tossed out.

Dude get the Biospira stop dicking around with all this crap and get your tank cycled. Do a huge water change before doing this. Clean out all the Extra CRAP thats floating around and stuck in the tank. 
And stop feeding the fish for a week. 
Adding extra hardware isn't going to do sh*t for you except add more stuff that needs to be cycled. 
you can add 100 XP3's and its not goign to do anything for your problem since they are uncycled. 
You can dump All sorts of junk in there but none of its going to work for what you need because you need live bacteira to deal with your problem.
all you need is one or two for 90 gallon packets ($30) and dump them on your filter media to get them where they need to be fast. 
Turn the filters off for an hour. And then start up the tank. Thats all you can do. 
All this ammo lock crap is counterproductive and will not aid the long term success of your tank..


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## the_skdster

BlackSunshine said:


> yeah why is this post still going? It wa a horribly simple problem with a horribly simple soloution. ppl have over complicated the issue with long drawn out postings of jibberish and all sorts of bandaid soloutions have been tossed out.
> 
> Dude get the Biospira stop dicking around with all this crap and get your tank cycled. Do a huge water change before doing this. Clean out all the Extra CRAP thats floating around and stuck in the tank.
> And stop feeding the fish for a week.
> Adding extra hardware isn't going to do sh*t for you except add more stuff that needs to be cycled.
> you can add 100 XP3's and its not goign to do anything for your problem since they are uncycled.
> You can dump All sorts of junk in there but none of its going to work for what you need because you need live bacteira to deal with your problem.
> all you need is one or two for 90 gallon packets ($30) and dump them on your filter media to get them where they need to be fast.
> Turn the filters off for an hour. And then start up the tank. Thats all you can do.
> All this ammo lock crap is counterproductive and will not aid the long term success of your tank..


Well said.
Tough love. Great stuff.

*continues to wonder why this thread hs gone on for so long*


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## Kyle2154

Thanks for the input, though the topic had been idle for 4 days, possibly drifting off eternally until 3 posts pop up back to back to back complaining about how it's still going on. Thanks for the input black, I'll pick up some bio-spira, sorry I didn't have a chance to look at one of your many posts on how to cycle a tank LGHT, my bad, and skdster, glad to see you added a post count.


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## Leasure1

> yeah why is this post still going? It wa a horribly simple problem with a horribly simple soloution. ppl have over complicated the issue with long drawn out postings of jibberish and all sorts of bandaid soloutions have been tossed out.
> 
> Dude get the Biospira stop dicking around with all this crap and get your tank cycled. Do a huge water change before doing this. Clean out all the Extra CRAP thats floating around and stuck in the tank.
> And stop feeding the fish for a week.
> Adding extra hardware isn't going to do sh*t for you except add more stuff that needs to be cycled.
> you can add 100 XP3's and its not goign to do anything for your problem since they are uncycled.
> You can dump All sorts of junk in there but none of its going to work for what you need because you need live bacteira to deal with your problem.
> all you need is one or two for 90 gallon packets ($30) and dump them on your filter media to get them where they need to be fast.
> Turn the filters off for an hour. And then start up the tank. Thats all you can do.
> All this ammo lock crap is counterproductive and will not aid the long term success of your tank..


Jesus christ BS......I could never have said it better myself.

Kyle.......I told ya Bio-spira was the sh*t, and may be the only way to keep your fish alive, and cycle the tank all in one shot. Well worth the money, and time and effort saved. Just think, if you would have bought the bio-spira...oh, say..........7 pages and 1000 posts ago, you would be sitting on your couch right now, and not f*cking around doing water changes everyday. lol


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## barbianj




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## TerryMik

BlackSunshine said:


> yeah why is this post still going? It wa a horribly simple problem with a horribly simple soloution. ppl have over complicated the issue with long drawn out postings of jibberish and all sorts of bandaid soloutions have been tossed out.
> 
> Dude get the Biospira stop dicking around with all this crap and get your tank cycled. Do a huge water change before doing this. Clean out all the Extra CRAP thats floating around and stuck in the tank.
> And stop feeding the fish for a week.
> Adding extra hardware isn't going to do sh*t for you except add more stuff that needs to be cycled.
> you can add 100 XP3's and its not goign to do anything for your problem since they are uncycled.
> You can dump All sorts of junk in there but none of its going to work for what you need because you need live bacteira to deal with your problem.
> all you need is one or two for 90 gallon packets ($30) and dump them on your filter media to get them where they need to be fast.
> Turn the filters off for an hour. And then start up the tank. Thats all you can do.
> All this ammo lock crap is counterproductive and will not aid the long term success of your tank..


*2007-01-27*

For those of us that are unable to get Bio Spira (Canada) these "long drawn out postings of gibberish" are not an "over-complication" nor are they "band-aid solutions".

You are correct - - AmoLock is counter productive. However, AmGuard does the job (and I have no data on AmQuel). When one is using *nitrosomonas*, the ammonia must be held below 2 ppm to prevent it from dying off, so AmGuard is required (along with proper husbandry) to keep the ammonia under control until the nitrosomonas can re-establish themselves. I am not going to get into the debate as to whether or not nitrosomonas is a "true" nitrifying bacteria or not, other than to say that there are several species of nitrifying bacteria and many strains of each - - each one of them seems to have it's "plus and minuses" with each one performing better under a specific set of conditions.

As I have no experience with Bio Spira, I cannot speak out for or against it - - I have read many positive things about it and look forward to the day that it is available in Canada. If it can survive in environments where ammonia is so extremely high, then it is truly an amazing product.

What cannot be overlooked in this scenario is the need to examine the whole husbandry issue. My posts were not just about the use of chemicals, but an examination of the whole picture, starting off with the over population and over feeding. Until those issues are addressed, the tank is going to an be overwhelming amount of work. On top of that, such a situation is totally unfair to the tank inhabitants . . . these beast deserve the best care that we can give them. While I agree that adding extra filtration in itself is not going to solve the problems, it is necessary to ensure that there is sufficient filtration (especially biological) to properly keep the balance in an artificial environment that is taxed to its limit. Husbandry also includes *testing water chemistry* - - all must be within appropriate ranges & it is necessary to understand how they inter-relate. If testing is considered to be "too much work" then we shouldn't be in this hobby. While some who read these posts may consider some of this info basic & trivial, I took the perspective of trying to assist someone who needed to be given a better understanding of some of these fundamentals (and how they fit in to the "Big Picture"). Working in retail, I come across situations on a daily basis (even with "experienced" fish keepers) where a bit of previously overlooked basic information is all it takes to set people back on the right track.

Terry


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## 8Jaws

kyle stop wasting your money and stop putting all those chemicals, i have the same test kit and racked my brain as it constantly says I have ammonia in the tank even after meticulus cleanings. I went out and purchase a seachem ammonia alert and that states all clear. I figured this think cant be right so I purchased another and I got the same results I went to their website and found this:

Q: I have another test kit that showed positive for ammonia but the Ammonia Alert™never changed color. Is it still good? 
A: Most likely the other test kit was testing for total ammonia. Total ammonia includes both free (NH3) and ionic (NH4+) ammonia. The Ammonia Alert™only measure free ammonia because that is the harmful form. Ionic ammonia cannot harm your fish. However, as pH rises, a greater and greater percentage of the total ammonia will be converted from ionic ammonia to free ammonia, so knowledge of total ammonia is also important.

Let me reiterate I have the same test kit, and it test for total ammonia nh3 and nh4, nh4 is not tonic only NH3 is. Hope this helps, I believe you have been going round and round for nothing.

Eddie


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## Guest

8Jaws said:


> kyle stop wasting your money and stop putting all those chemicals, i have the same test kit and racked my brain as it constantly says I have ammonia in the tank even after meticulus cleanings. I went out and purchase a seachem ammonia alert and that states all clear. I figured this think cant be right so I purchased another and I got the same results I went to their website and found this:
> 
> Q: I have another test kit that showed positive for ammonia but the Ammonia Alert™never changed color. Is it still good?
> A: Most likely the other test kit was testing for total ammonia. Total ammonia includes both free (NH3) and ionic (NH4+) ammonia. The Ammonia Alert™only measure free ammonia because that is the harmful form. Ionic ammonia cannot harm your fish. However, as pH rises, a greater and greater percentage of the total ammonia will be converted from ionic ammonia to free ammonia, so knowledge of total ammonia is also important.
> 
> Let me reiterate I have the same test kit, and it test for total ammonia nh3 and nh4, nh4 is not tonic only NH3 is. Hope this helps, I believe you have been going round and round for nothing.
> 
> Eddie


are you kidding me? Why didnt you let this thread die? Im sure that by now almost 5 months later his tank is cycled or he has a dead fish or even a new one now. It would be awsome if this got closed.


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## 8Jaws

thts what happens when you get drunk and dont look at the dates of the posts


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## Dr. Giggles

Dead thread


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