# Feeders stunting growth



## boxer (Sep 11, 2003)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piranha

for the most part, wikipedia seems to be a reliable source. also sounding like feeder fish as fish that will give your P's a workout sometimes sounds BS after 4inches since a shoal pretty much 1 shots a fish at that range.

Piranhas can be bought as pets in some areas. They are illegal in some parts of the United States. One such place is the State of Washington. The most common by far is Pygocentrus nattereri, or the red-bellied piranha. They can either be bought fully grown or as babies no bigger than a thumbnail. It is important to keep the Pygocentrus genus of piranhas either singularly or in group of or more, since aggression amongst the group is common and distributed more widely when kept in larger groups, allowing the weaker fish to survive. It is also recommended to keep them in even-numbered groups, as they will gang up on an odd member. Any fish-based foods, available from most fish farms or stores, will do for feeding but thawed shrimp, fillets of white fish and disease free feeders are preferred. As with all fish, the young should be fed very little; overfeeding can kill them. As they get older and bigger, they will eat a good deal more. It is usually necessary to change types of food often, in order to provide a balanced diet. *While feeder goldfish are the most popular choice, they contain a B vitamin inhibitor that may stunt growth and shorten the piranha's life span. Piranhas prefer a darker environment with a lot of plant cover, as they become agitated when denied appropriate cover.*


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## cfb (Mar 14, 2007)

Not sure what you are getting at Boxer...

First off, wiki is not a reliable source. The page can be written and edited by anyone who visits the page. It is more of a collection of thoughts and ideas than actual fact.

Besides, it has been public knowledge for a long time that feeders stunt growth. There are tons of posts on it.

Randy
CFB


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## Doktordet (Sep 22, 2006)

I think a guy named Jonas wrote much of that stuff. I think he's also a PFury member.


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## boxer (Sep 11, 2003)

I didn't realize anyone could edit wikipedia. It seemed to be a reliable source because all the documentation and citing they do. I never read or heard of anyone mentioning feeders stunting growth rate. Only thing I've ever heard was piranhas releasing chemicals that stunt their own growth rate, one of the reason why we constantly need to change our water. Besides this month, I haven't been on this site in over one or two years and back than, there was a lot of people thinking that feeders would give your P's decent excersize and thus helping growth. People knew feeders weren't nutritional but I still haven't read anything here about feeders stunting growth.



> Doktordet Posted Today, 09:58 AM
> I think a guy named Jonas wrote much of that stuff. I think he's also a PFury member.


I remember Jonas used to post here 3 years ago, he used to go by as Judaz I think.


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## RB 32 (Mar 2, 2005)

Feeders do not stunned growth...


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## dangmatic (May 12, 2007)

feeders do stun growth and yes anyone can edit wikipedia


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## RB 32 (Mar 2, 2005)

dangmatic said:


> feeders do stun growth and yes anyone can edit wikipedia


Prove it.


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## Yurtle (Jul 31, 2006)

This is from Frank (hastatus) from a previous post, and the excerpt is from the Merck Veterinary Manual (link):

1.Goldfish contain the inhibitor, varied diet is always best. It does not just block growth (read below).
2. Goldfish are the main culprits regarding introduction of diseases and parasites that attack piranha.

"Vitamin B1

deficiency can result from diets containing fish with high thiaminase levels, and exogenous supplementation is required. Weight loss with adequate food intake is characteristic, but neurologic signs can also occur. Goldfish have low thiaminase activity, while smelt have extremely high levels. Freezing of fish decreases parasite loads but increases thiaminase levels. Posterior paresis progressing to flaccid paralysis and the loss of the righting reflex has been seen in iguanas and garter snakes, respectively, and is associated with a B-complex deficiency. Deficiencies of the water-soluble vitamins often involve more than 1 vitamin and require treatment with a multivitamin preparation"*

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.js...m/bc/171406.htm

It has been documented that high thiaminase levels lead to stunted growth. Just how much Thiaminase is in gold fish or any other fish is something that needs to be studied. Interestingly enough the above reference indicates that smelt are in fact higher in thiaminase than goldfish. It makes me wonder about silversides which I use as a significant part of my P's diet (along with shrimp, tilapia, and the odd live feed).

Bottom line is not whether is stunts growth or not anyway. Its not a balanced diet. If the only thing you ate was potatoes, or steak, or caviar everyday you would be messed up medically before too long. Its common sense to feed a varied diet.


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## oryschakgp (Nov 5, 2005)

I feed tetras and guppies... i read these don't have thiaminase. I know goldfish and danios and others do.


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## RB 32 (Mar 2, 2005)

You don't want to feed goldfish because they are dirty...not because they will stunt your fishes growth..

so are you telling me..smelt and catfish will stunt your fishes growth... after all smelt and catfish have the same thiaminase levels as goldfish??


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## RB 32 (Mar 2, 2005)

Yurtle said:


> This is from Frank (hastatus) from a previous post, and the excerpt is from the Merck Veterinary Manual (link):
> 
> 1.Goldfish contain the inhibitor, varied diet is always best. It does not just block growth (read below).
> 2. Goldfish are the main culprits regarding introduction of diseases and parasites that attack piranha.
> ...


It says that smelt has a higher level of this chemical than goldfish...so now are you telling me it will stunt the growth of fish??


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## boxer (Sep 11, 2003)

well we have a wide variety of food we can eat, but as a fish, you have a limited selection 
97% fish, what kind of fishes do they normally eat and how many different types? there are many fish in the rivers but how many different would a piranha normally eat? 
3% other vegetables, meats

i feed my P's hikari cichlid pellets but i dunno how healthy that is for them. i would assume that they are since they are engineered food.


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## oryschakgp (Nov 5, 2005)

RB 32 said:


> This is from Frank (hastatus) from a previous post, and the excerpt is from the Merck Veterinary Manual (link):
> 
> 1.Goldfish contain the inhibitor, varied diet is always best. It does not just block growth (read below).
> 2. Goldfish are the main culprits regarding introduction of diseases and parasites that attack piranha.
> ...


It says that smelt has a higher level of this chemical than goldfish...so now are you telling me it will stunt the growth of fish??
[/quote]

You've got a point, I wish I knew more about the subject. I've just been scared away from goldfish due to all the crazy talk.


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## Yurtle (Jul 31, 2006)

I myself am a bit confused with the smelt issue as well but that is what the handbook says. I dont feed smelt, but I feed silversides, among other things, which may be the same thing or at least closely related. I still think that a mixed diet is best. I use silversides, tilapia, shrimp, scallops, and the occasional live frog, tetra, etc.

After doing a quick check, silversides are from a different family than smelt, for those of you that care. Could still contain thiaminase though.


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