# micro, macro



## hiphopn (Feb 10, 2005)

ok so here is the deal. i am sick and tired of my tank getting over grown with hair algae so i am gunna give it one more try. i am gunna put in some eco complete substrate cuz i hate to rinse the stuff. i have seachem flourish. 4wpg 6700k lighting and c02 pressurized system. anyways the question is... what kind of micro and macro nutrients will i need to dose with. i mean what products do i need to buy? what else??????


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## Powder (Nov 24, 2004)

use sechaem flourish and get somne gravel bed conditioner tabs 
cant remember who makes them poss sechem they are like 8 bucks for a box at petsmart and im not too sure if sechem flourish has iron so maybe might want to get some stuff called plant gro its only iron .15 i belive
later


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Hair algae is almost always a result of low CO2 levels (the dark brown/black kind, right?). With a pressurized system you should have no problems getting rid of it









If you want to keep things simple, order the PMDD pre-mix from this website
http://gregwatson.com/PMDDStoreInfo.htm

If you want to tinker around, order the Plantex CSM+B (those are your micronutrients) and then order some Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Sulfate, and Potassium Nitrate.


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## hiphopn (Feb 10, 2005)

elTwitcho said:


> Hair algae is almost always a result of low CO2 levels (the dark brown/black kind, right?). With a pressurized system you should have no problems getting rid of it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ok i got the premix stuff but how much should i use for a 60 gallon tank??


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## hiphopn (Feb 10, 2005)

hiphopn said:


> elTwitcho said:
> 
> 
> > Hair algae is almost always a result of low CO2 levels (the dark brown/black kind, right?). With a pressurized system you should have no problems getting rid of it
> ...


bump


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Ah, well that's tricky. To be honest, the scientific method I used was "put a bunch of fertilizer in, then afterwards see how the plants are doing". I initially mixed 4 tablespoons of the powder with 500ml of water, and dosed 20ml of the solution per 10 gallons. Algae wasn't at all bad and this worked for me until I stirred up the substrate in my tank and got a green algae bloom. I tried a half dose of the solution and my plants are getting spots, so basically experiment around a bit. I'd start with the solution I used and see how it goes from there, so long as you're dosing twice per week and doing 50% water changes weekly you can't really put your levels too far out of wack


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## hiphopn (Feb 10, 2005)

how much is 500ml. id ont know ml... how do i measure all that. i got the tablespoon stuff. but what kind of container are you putting the solution in and how do you measure 20ml b4 you put it in? how come i cant just pour some of the powder straight in the aqaurium?


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## hiphopn (Feb 10, 2005)

ok i found a 500 ml container but i still have a few questions. 
1)how do i measure the 20ml i am putting in the aquarium?
2)should i still use flourish?

thanks


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

I wouldn't bother with the fluorish anymore

and

Get a measuring glass or spoon that works in mililitres. I ordered mine when I ordered the fertilizer. Science stores should have them I guess, not really sure where you would look. You definately shouldn't add the powder directly to the tank because you're talking about quantities of milligrams if you do, and you'd need something to measure that small amount in that case.


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## hiphopn (Feb 10, 2005)

check out what greg had to say when i emailed him this:

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Subject:	RE: adam recommends this site
Date:	Thu, 19 May 2005 16:34:37 -0500
From:	"GW" <[email protected]> Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book
To:	[email protected]
>> Your friend adam ([email protected]) has recommended this site to you, 
>> and sends you the following message:
>> i recentlly purchased your pmdd premix micro and macro nutrients and was 
>> wondering what the best dosage would be for a 60 gallon medium planted tank 
>> with co2 injection and 4 watts per gallon? please let me know

That is really tough to answer ...

First, 4 watts per gallon is like driving a turbo charged Ferrari on a curvey loose gravel road ...

Here's plant nutrition 101, plants need a healthy balanced diet of Light, Carbon, Macro Nutrients, and Micro Nutrients. By using 4 watts per gallon of light, you are turbo charging forcing the plant growth beyond what nature intended. Thankfully, you are also in the proccesso of providing all of the rest of the nutrients because you are providing pressurized CO2 and asking questions about how to meet your macro and micro nutrients needs as well ...

So ... now that we have established that we have turbo charged star wars light speed may the force be with luke skywalker kind of growth demands ... your pressurized CO2 *****should****** be able to supply you an adequate amount of carbon to meet your plants carbon needs ...

The traditional PMDD recipe is designed to be a good generic "starting" point for meeting the "typical" planted aquariums macro and micro nutrient needs ... you can read about the PMDD strategy and dosing recommendations here (Practical PMDD Information, Sources and Dosing): http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/pmdd-tim.html ... however, the recommendations are based on normal tanks with about 1 watt per gallon ...

As you read the information about the PMDD strategy, you might also note that the "receipe" was designed to be a starting point, designed to allow the ratio of the various ingredients to be adjusted to meet the unique nutrient uptake requirements of your tank ... this "generic" PMDD Pre-Mix works wonderfully for smaller average tanks with normal lighting, however, the Pre-Mix doesn't give you the ability to adjust the ratio of the ingredients to meet the higher light demand of a turbo charged tank like yours ... it will work, however, it won't give you the ability to do the fine control adjustments that are appropriate for a highly tunned Ferrari engine <grin> ... like the engine you have setup for your tank <grin> ...

So <grin> ... with all of the "disclaimers" above ... let me get back to your question above ...

Everyone once to make things really complicated ... it doesn't have to be ...

While the PMDD Pre-Mix may not in my personal opinion be ideal for your Ferrari ... your Ferrari probably will run just fine on regular unleaded gas, in otherwords, you may not need the high octane racing fuel that the racers put in their cars on the race track ...

The PMDD Pre-Mix is made up of four equal parts of Potassium Nitrate (macro), Potassium Sulfate (macro), Plantex CSM+B (micros), and Magnesium Sulfate (micros) ... so one dosing option you can try is to dose using "Nitrate" as a proxy for all the other macro and micro nutrients ... since you know that your Pre-Mix is 1/4th Potassium Nitrate, you can go to an online dosing calculator like Chuck Gadd's Calculator (he also has a downloadable windows version) ... and you can use his calculator to help you determine how much you need to dose each day or every other day (I personally dose three times a week on M-W-F) ... consistency in your dosing routine is probably the most important factor ... and here is a link to Chuck Gadd's Online Calculator: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm

First, let's talk about makeing a "dosing solution" ... the traditional solution is made up of 4 Tablespoons of the PMDD Pre-Mix in 500 ml of water ... personally, I like to use a Pepsi Big Mouth bottle (its approximately 1 liter). The nice large mouth of the bottle makes it very easy to pour 4 tablespoons of dry ingredients into the bottle. We then can fill the bottle half full with water, put the cap on the bottle and shake very very very very very vigorously ...

We can then use Chuck Gadd's Online calculator. Since 1/4th of the PMDD Pre-Mix is Potassium Nitrate, we can make the assumption that 1/4th of the 4 Tablespoons of Pre-Mix that we put in our solution equals 1 Tablespoon of Potassium Nitrate. So in Chuck's calculator in the amount to add field, we can put 1 in the Tablespoon box, 500 ml in the Amount of Water to Mix with box, and 60 Gallons in the Tank size box ...

The calculator now tells us that each one ml of our solution will ad 0.11 ppm of Nitrate to our aquarium. Chuck's calculator recommends 5 ppm of Nitrate for the "typical" aquarium.

So for the dosing theory here. If we test your water, and your Nitrate level says you have 1 ppm of Nitrate in your aquarium and you want a goal of 5 ppm of Nitrate in your aquarium, then we need to add 4 ppm of Nitrate. Does this make sense? The online calculator tells us that each ml equals 0.11 ppm of Nitrate in your tank, so to add 4 ppm of Nitrate to your tank, we can divide the 4 ppm by the 0.11 and get 36+ ml of solution. All we have to do then is add 36 ml of our PMDD Solution to our aquarium to bring up the tank from 1 ppm of Nitrate to 5 ppm of Nitrate. Does this make sense?

Since the PMDD Pre-Mix also has Potassium and micro nutrients, we are going to assume that this will also proportionately raise the level of these other nutrients up to an adequate level to meet your other nutrient requirements in your tank ...

This is actually exactly what I do in several of my personal aquariums right after a major water change ...

With the high quantity of light you have in your aquarium, you will probably find that your plants are sucking down 100% of the nitrate in 24 hours, so you can choose to dose on a daily basis which is often the preferred recommendation, or you can up your target level from the 5 ppm to a higher level ...

Hopefully, this kind of will get you started in the right direction ... most answers create more questions ... so please feel free to drop me a quick note anytime.

<grin> ... and with a larger tank like yours, when you run out of the Pre-Mix, please drop me a note, and together, we can walk through getting you the individual fertilizers that you need for your unique aquarium and style ... it will give you the ability to have a little more flexibilty and control in what and how much you are dosing of the various ingredients ... but for right now, you are probably just fine ...

Thanks,
Greg

http://www.gregwatson.com/

a very informative guy


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## hiphopn (Feb 10, 2005)

i went out and bought a new test kit. the kordon acutru test kit and it tells me i have no nitrates after i added a bunch of nitrates through the solution...wtf?


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Nitrate kits just aren't accurate below 20 ppm, I wouldn't bother with that.


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## hiphopn (Feb 10, 2005)

elTwitcho said:


> Nitrate kits just aren't accurate below 20 ppm, I wouldn't bother with that.
> [snapback]1032899[/snapback]​


so basically i cant tell if im not adding enough unless i see my plants dieing like they seem to be now...? they havent been fertilized in a couple days cuz i was waiting for my ferts to get here....
View attachment 62059


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## hiphopn (Feb 10, 2005)

what does it mean when the plant starts to get transparent or yellow???


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

Cause :
Lack of iron, lack of potassium, very small or excessive fertilization with phosphates. In aquariums with good fertilization it can result when exists very big carbonic hardness (KH) in combination with pH bigger the 7

Solution : 
Regular use of fertilizers with iron or use of sublayer enriched with iron. If it needs we lower the Carbonic Hardness (KH)


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## hiphopn (Feb 10, 2005)

husky_jim said:


> Cause :
> Lack of iron, lack of potassium, very small or excessive fertilization with phosphates. In aquariums with good fertilization it can result when exists very big carbonic hardness (KH) in combination with pH bigger the 7
> 
> Solution :
> ...


and how do we lower the kh?


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## hiphopn (Feb 10, 2005)

ok here is the deal... i ahave been adding 20ml of the premixed pmdd solution daily. i got 4wpg. pc bulbs. i have a eco complete substrate and my plants seem to be getting worse. turning brown and see through. i heard this is a potassium lack ussually but theu should have plenty potassium. wtf? what am i doing wrong? i got the light, the fertz, the co2, the substrate so why are my plants dying?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

hi hiphon, 
my plants were yellow and transparent like yours, before I started mega dosing the PMDD. I add some flourish iron to my tank, cause the PMDD pre mix doesn't seem to have enough for my setup. 
Also, the PMDD doesn't have phosphate in it, so I have to add that too, and it really seems to do the trick. (1 capfull to about 3-4 caps of pmdd, as needed) my phosphate levels were at 0 for days.. that is bad.
I am now mixing my PMDD at double strength (4 teaspoons @ 250 ml-that is my old flourish bottle) and dosing almost just as much as before.
I have 3wpg PC w/ reflector lighting. with your 4, I wouldn't be afraid to up the dosing way way up. At least to see what happens. That was my problem... 
my solution to my problems were... (doesn't mean it will work for u, and it certainly "seems" to work for me, at least for the last week or 2) so my thought process went like this..
0 nitrates=strengthen PMDD mix, added more of it too. 
0 phosphates, went and got phosphate, seems to be manageable
don't have an iron test, but plants seemed a lil yellow, so I add a bit of the flourish iron to go with the PMDD.
I also, to eliminate CO2 problems, bought a CO2 controller, and set the pH so it is always at 30ppm.
I still have a bit of algea, but it slowed way way down, and I hope to see it come to a crawl soon. Plants have been taking off since I changed, I'm just hoping I find the happy middle ground soon... hope this helps any guys!


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## hiphopn (Feb 10, 2005)

hmmmm maybe phosphates are my problem. and if pmdd doesnt have enough iron that could be it too cuz my water is almost the color of my pmdd mix i have been dosing so much but my plants are dying too


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

LOL my water was yellow too for a while LOL I wondered about that.. I have no idea what happened, but I am dosing more now, and the water is crystal. I'm not sure, but maybe now the plants acclimated to the extra nutrients and are utilizing them better? not sure but it was concearning me for about a week.. but ya, maybe if u have the extra $, get a phosphate test kit 'cuz i read somewhere (not sure where) that if phosphate is at 0 your plants won't be able to do certain things and may stunt growth as well. (check me on that, but im pretty sure)


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