# RBPs



## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

Hey everyone.

There's been a big debate on whether or not one can tell the difference between males vs females. Everyone seems to think that there is nothing visual, but unless my breeding pairs are mutations ... I think there is a visual difference.

Besides the standard thickness of females vs males, I've notice that my females DO in FACT have BREEDING TUBES. I will post a few pics ... hopefully sized down, you can still see the tubes.

I will be sending full sized shots to one of our members here who's trying to sex a Yellow Belly. Being that they are both nats ... the sexing in my opinion should be the same.

I have 8 (4 males 4 females) in a 125Gal. I know that I have at least 3 proven pairs. This year ... I've also been trying to save a few batches without success. But with Nike's help and everyone's previous expierence ... I hope I can save some from my recent spawn. I tried getting shots of the eggs and fry's that have recently hatched, but my cheap digi can't focus that well on zoom.









Anyhow ... enjoy... Also for the breeding experts ... if you PM me with a web email I can send the full pix shots so you can examine them yourselves and tell me whether I'm seeing things and or I'm full of cr*p


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

Here's a device I'm trying to hatch a batch of eggs with. And yes, it's ghetto ... but these were left in the main tank


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

Here's one a comparison shot of a breeding pair (wanting for them to lay eggs). The one in the back is the male. The female you can see her filled with eggs. This pair has not been feed for a week now.


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

This pic at full size shows the breeding tube on the female very well. I'm not sure how well it'll show at the reduced size.


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

Here's another shot of another female with the tube.


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

Here's a shot of Dad from my last batch of eggs. He got pretty beat up for being so horny and guarding the nest in my 125.


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## EMJAY (Feb 27, 2003)

wow. you went all the way with this one didn't you?

i believe to the trained eye of piranha owning and spawning, that an owner can tell the difference of a piranha once it's sexually matured.

but what do i know


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

That's not a breeding tube but the egg sac extended out. I also note your pirana is 'overweight' which is a topic I've been discussing in PSCI and the effects of egg implosion. When the sac extends out like that your running the chances of eggs spoiling inside those fishes should the opening seal itself.

I'll dig up some data to show you what I mean.


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

EMJAY said:


> wow. you went all the way with this one didn't you?
> 
> i believe to the trained eye of piranha owning and spawning, that an owner can tell the difference of a piranha once it's sexually matured.


 Thanks ...









But to be honest ... I've never paid much attention to these guys till the last year or so. I don't think it takes much expertise to see the difference on matured reds. The breeding tube is easy to see once they hit about 5-6". If you know where the anus is on the fish ... just take a close look and you should notice something that looks like a pimple on the femaes. For those who have breed other ciclids such as Convicts, then you should know what it looks like. The males from what I've seen on my shoal has no tube.

I use to use the size rule thinking that the majority of males are small and more hotdog like, but one of my males looks like a female at first look. He's round and wide, but lacks the breeding tube. I came to this conclusion a few months back when he was guarding a nest. I saw the breeding with my other big female. I was thinking prior to the breeding to house him in the 20 with my other male. Man ... they would have killed each other in that tank.









Any other comments from experts or members welcomed







After all, I maybe going nuts and need a slap in the face


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

hastatus said:


> That's not a breeding tube but the egg sac extended out. I also note your pirana is 'overweight' which is a topic I've been discussing in PSCI and the effects of egg implosion. When the sac extends out like that your running the chances of eggs spoiling inside those fishes should the opening seal itself.
> 
> I'll dig up some data to show you what I mean.


 Hey Frank ... thanks for the comments. I wasn't sure what to call the thing, so I just called it a breeding tube









I have a total of 10 big reds in my tanks (8 in a 125gal 2 in a 20gal), a total of 5 males and 5 females. My brother has a break-off shoal of 6 with 2 males and 4 females. All of our reds have been showing the tube or sack for many many years (they are about 11 years old). Neither of us have ever lost a single fish due to the egg sack blowing up. Actually, we have never lost a single fish.

You also mention that my females are over weight (fatties







), but I'm just wondering .... I normally only feed them once a week. The fatties are both in the 125 and the entire shoal only gets about 2 - 3 medium tiger shrimps or a small piece of trout at their weekly feeding. Maybe because of age, they process the food slower ...? I'm not expert on this but it's hard to think that I'm stuffing or over feeding them. I think I'm underfeeding the shoal.

Anyhow ... thanks for the input.


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## tecknik (Jul 18, 2003)

Tweaked, I've taken two shots of the anal area of my tern. This area has an internal arch which I noticed. I've sent some pics to Hollywood and he's going to give it a shot. I've looked at that as well as the area right before it and it seems as if it is rather a straight line then curved. I looked at several of my caribas and all are the same except for two. The two that are different do in fact are very curved in this area (right next to the anal fin).


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## tecknik (Jul 18, 2003)

Another shot...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Those are called prepelvic spines (b4 anal opening). Majority of piranas have those in all sexes. Its possible that area might be a bit more aggitated from releasing eggs. But you never know.


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

Forgot to mention that these guys are feed with one of the following at that weekly feeding:

1) 2-3 medium tiger shrimps
2) 2-3 pieces of squid (just the head cleaned of guts)
3) maybe 1/8 th pound of trout (pieces are about 2 thick x 3 inches long)
4) about 30 large ciclid pellets or dog food (yes IAMS DOG food)

Other than the dog food that they get maybe once every month or two ... they get no other types of meat.

I know that Frank has a thread about the effects of egg implosion from too fatty of foods ... but let me know what you guys think. The only fatty food is the dog food, but the amount and frequency is so low that I would rule that out.


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

tecknik.

At least from the pic's it doesn't look like my red females. Frank said that it's the egg sacks that pushing thru on my females? What I would do is watch the spot in front of the anus or arch. That is the apprx location of the pimple like thingie.

I guess if this get's to be a real big debate ... I might try taking one of the females out and checking it closer up?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> tweaked Posted on Nov 7 2003, 10:38 PM
> Forgot to mention that these guys are feed with one of the following at that weekly feeding:
> 
> 1) 2-3 medium tiger shrimps
> ...


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > tweaked Posted on Nov 7 2003, 10:38 PM
> > Forgot to mention that these guys are feed with one of the following at that weekly feeding:
> >
> > 1) 2-3 medium tiger shrimps
> > ...


 Hey Frank ... no arguements from me on your comments. I figured that I should throw out my observations after viewing this board the last few months. I should also like to mention that my brother's fish never get's dog food (I get lazy once in a while and lag on getting to the store). He feeds his fish either cicild pellets, shrimp, or smelt.

Like I said ... maybe I'm going crazy or these guys are mutes of some kind, but I always wondered why no journals have ever been published.

If you need more pics Frank ... I can get them to you. And if I have to I'll pull a female out and try to get better pics out of water at your request







Please let us know the findings.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks Tweaked. I wrote that specifically for those that have trouble comprehending not everything I write is out to "belittle" anyone.

Here is some info for you that might be of some use:

Fat Content of Common Fish

Fish % Total Fat Sat. Fat Omega-3 Chol. 
Haddock 0.7 0.1 0.2 57 
Cod or Scrod 0.7 0.1 0.2 43 
Orange Roughy 0.7 0.1 n/a 23 
Perch 0.9 0.2 0.3 90 
Pollock 1.0 0.1 0.4 71 
Grouper 1.0 0.2 0.2 37 
Yellowfin Tuna 1.0 0.2 0.2 45 
Snapper 1.3 0.3 0.3 37 
Monkfish 1.5 n/a n/a 25 
Ocean Perch 1.6 0.2 0.3 42 
Mackerel (King) 2.0 0.4 0.3 53 
Halibut 2.3 0.3 0.4 32 
Striped Bass 2.3 0.5 0.8 80 
Smelt 2.4 0.5 0.7 70 
Rainbow Trout 3.4 0.6 0.6 57 
Swordfish 4.0 1.1 0.6 39 
Bluefish 4.2 0.9 0.8 59 
Freshwater
Catfish 4.3 1.0 0.4 58 
Bluefin Tuna 4.9 1.3 1.2 32 
Salmon (Atlantic) 6.3 1.0 1.4 66 
Albacore Tuna 7.2 1.9 2.1 38 
Lake Trout 9.4 1.2 1.4 36 
Chinook Salmon 10.4 2.5 1.4 66 
Mackerel
(Atlantic) 13.9 3.3 2.3 70 
Herring (Atlantic)


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

Frank ... no misunderstanding from me here with your input. And I guess I should mention that I wouldn't recommend feedng your prized fish dog food either ... but when you're on a tight schedule and out of town ... you gotta do what you gotta due.

The longest my fish in 125 have gone without food has been 2 weeks, but I try not to do that too often. Wouldn't wanna come home to one fat P


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I'm not familiar with the IAMS dog food but generally dog food is; 15-19% fat.

Squid is about: 1.38 (raw) g. and 0.358 g. Total Fat.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Last, but not least BEEF HEART: 3.78 TF per g. and 1.130 TS per g. The other thing to keep in mind is, if your preparing your own beef heart remove the veins and gross fat before feeding. And if you do care to feed it, do it sparingly.


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

Hey Frank ... thanks for the great info on content of various P foods. I think this is great info that actually overlaps into a few different areas of the forum.

Now if we can get additional info and comment from other's like Nike, SC, Brian, Hollywood to name a few that'll be great.

Oh forgot ... please no negative comments about feeding dog food. I already heard from a bunch of people on this one in the feeding section. So that means no flaming PLEASE.









If it's worth while for the scientific community ... I may even donate a pair to Frank for further study.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Please try and get less blurry photos. The ones from this post I sent out came back with that remark that they "could not see anything".

Also this was forthcoming about fat in diet from a field researcher;

Frank, 
Those fish are adapted to accumulate as much fat as possible. They should be put on a regime of fattening and starvation just like it happens in nature. Scott Dowd has done that with his fish at the New England aquarium and it works beautifully. He cuts down on the food supply over a month, and then starves the fish for 2-3 months to force them to burn the accumulated fat. As a result, he has absolutely healthy fish.


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## NIKE (Jan 27, 2003)

well you have herd from the best, so why the rest !! j/k i don't really have much to say on this, i personaly did not spend that much time on this, as identifying my breeding pairs are quite easy to tell apart as there is a considerable size differ. i have taken a moment to go over some old breeding pics. to see if i could see the difference of the prepelvic spines and i can post a pic. to show that i do not see to much of a difference although the pics were not shot at this specific area. if given the chance for a better shot soon, i will take a updated pic focusing on this specific area.


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## NIKE (Jan 27, 2003)

forgot pic


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## NIKE (Jan 27, 2003)




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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Please try and get less blurry photos. The ones from this post I sent out came back with that remark that they "could not see anything".


 Frank ... please PM me with a web address. I'll send you ones that have not been sized down. Those pics are much clear!!!


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

tweaked

Must commend you for your observation. Have noticed the egg sac for a while but never really paid that much attention. Hopefully Frank can shed more light. Ill check my pairs and provide some photos.


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

HOLLYWOOD said:


> tweaked
> 
> Must commend you for your observation. Have noticed the egg sac for a while but never really paid that much attention. Hopefully Frank can shed more light. Ill check my pairs and provide some photos.


 Hollywood.

Thanks for confiriming "something." I thought I was seeing things and all keyed due to the recent spawns occuring in my 125. Would appreciate any additional photo's. I need to try and get clear pics for Frank to view. I can't seem to get good pics ... but will try again during the week. I'm gonna try and see if I can borrow a cam with better pixles.

I've also been toying with the idea of taking one of the females out of the tank for a better pic. Can anyone recommend the safest was to do this for the fish? They are pretty good sized and I don't want to take the chance of hurting her or myself.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

does that mean that the bigger piranhas are more likly to be female. and when will my reds will be able to breed. sorry if i am getting off topic but i have noticed that all of my piranhas eat exactly the same because i make sure they do. i have 6 large ones and only 1 one small one. i think that maybe the small one is male because of his size. also is there any noticable signs of breeding or like dating. like the pair swim together of stay away from each other. because the small one and one big one always seem to be near each other and kinda away from all the others. thanks. any ideas frank


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

Hey Everyone ... I haven't given up on this topic, but I've been busy with work and trying to find homes for me puppies.

Sweetlu ... in most cases, at least with the breeding pairs I have seen, the larger ones are the females and the smaller ones are usually males. The only problem with using this method is that it's not always accurate. My largest red is a male









As for behavior ... it depends on the pair and how many other fish are in the mood. I have notice that they tend to pair off and move away from the rest of the shoal. The one in the nest is almost always the male while the female is nearby.

The funniest thing though ... I have a female that's ripe and guarding a nest right now, but is being ignored by all the males







I have another female that's paired with my big guy, but is flirting with two other males.







Go figure.

If you think that your fish are in the mood ... you might want to try and make sure that possible nesting areas are well defined and don't overlap. Try dividing your tank up into 3 sections. Make the center of the tank open swimming area. Make the quarter ends possible nesting grounds. You can separate it off with driftwood or rocks, or pile the gravel up higher creating a hill on each ends of the tank. You might go as far as creating little nests (ditches) in the gravel.

Anyhow ... good luck. In the mean time I need to get my hands on a better cam.


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## FeTTo (Nov 19, 2003)

well i recently recieved a piranah from a buddy of mine who was running out of room in his tank, so instead of his 3 8-9" inches eating the 3-4 incher, he gave it to me, now ive noticed that this ilttle guy he gave me, seems to have that "eggsac" you were pointing out recently. it is over 3 years old and only about 3-4 inches big, 5 at the most. so im not sure if the big one is always the female, but im hoping that this fish is a female, becuase id love to get a male and have em breed. also i read about starving your fish for 2-3 months to make em more healthier and burn off accumlated fat, is that safe to starve them for 2-3 months? im scared to starve my p for 2-3 weeks, i make sure he/she always has some comets in there to munch on for a late night snack, maybe i shouldnt be? im so confused


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

Congrats on your pickup ... if you got a good "Zoom" on your cam a pic would be nice. I haven't had much time the last few weeks to jump back on my band wagon.

As for not feeding you P for 2-3 mos ... up to you. I guess it depends on how much fat it has. The longest I've gone with no feeding is 2 weeks. I feed my shoal 1x per week.


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## slipx888 (Nov 19, 2003)

There is definitly a way to compare i think...u just have to look hard enough and spend time watching ur fish and see the way they behave...thats a way i believe could work...but...u dont ahve to listen to me im jsut telling u wht i think...hope it helps! good luck!


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

slipx888 said:


> There is definitly a way to compare i think...u just have to look hard enough and spend time watching ur fish and see the way they behave...thats a way i believe could work...but...u dont ahve to listen to me im jsut telling u wht i think...hope it helps! good luck!


 Sexing isn't that easy. According to what you typed, males and females act differently ...? How is that ...? The normal is males are normally thinner and smaller than females, but I can prove that one wrong. I have a fat round male in one of my tank. No disrespect meant, but curious to know how you're coming up with your conclusion?


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## fluidnyc (Oct 15, 2003)

tweaked said:


> You might go as far as creating little nests (ditches) in the gravel.


Hey Twk..

When I was cleaning my tank, i syphoned my gravel..and it left a hole, like a nest..
almost in the corner of my tank, later that day I saw was my 3 wild Super reds swimming in a circle motion, hoovering above the hole. All 3 of them were following eachother in this cirular motion.

What kinda behavior is that. Does that mean anything?

Was just curious too know...

Thanks.


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## HOLLYWOOD (Feb 6, 2003)

FeTTo said:


> well i recently recieved a piranah from a buddy of mine who was running out of room in his tank, so instead of his 3 8-9" inches eating the 3-4 incher, he gave it to me, now ive noticed that this ilttle guy he gave me, seems to have that "eggsac" you were pointing out recently. it is over 3 years old and only about 3-4 inches big, 5 at the most.


 Something just doesn't jive. First you say your friend has 3 8-9" P's then you mention he gives you a 3-4" 5" tops P thats over 3 years old. Either that 3 year old 5" natt was not properly cared for thus stunted, or its only a year old.......... correct me if im wrong.


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## tweaked (Aug 3, 2003)

fluidnyc said:


> tweaked said:
> 
> 
> > You might go as far as creating little nests (ditches) in the gravel.
> ...


 More than likely, it doesn't mean much being that your p's are only around the 4" mark. They were probably just checking out the new change in the tank. Did you see any of them blowing the gravel? Normally, the male is the one making circles over the nest. The female will sometimes blow a nest and circle her fav'd breeding hole.


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## FeTTo (Nov 19, 2003)

HOLLYWOOD said:


> FeTTo said:
> 
> 
> > well i recently recieved a piranah from a buddy of mine who was running out of room in his tank, so instead of his 3 8-9" inches eating the 3-4 incher, he gave it to me, now ive noticed that this ilttle guy he gave me, seems to have that "eggsac" you were pointing out recently. it is over 3 years old and only about 3-4 inches big, 5 at the most.
> ...


 hollywood, my friend had this fish for over 3 years. its the last suvivor of what was once 2 rbp's in a 20 gallon tank, this guy has lived in a 20 gallon tank for those 3 years, so im assuming his growth got stunted sadly. right now i have him in a 20 gallon high tank, hoping it might help him out a tad, and ive cranked the temp up to 76, and hes up to about 2-3 goldfish or comets a day, depending on what i feed him. i hope his growth isnt stunted, i hope it can still grow bigger, but im fairly new to P keeping, so all the help everyone can assist me with, ill appreciate it very much, thanks

as for twk, ill try to get a good pic when i can, it usualy just chills in the back of the tank behind its castle, since it is the king of the tank, eats everything in the tank, cept the first 3 feeders i put in like 3 weeks ago, i think he made friends with that, hah, other then that, he ate 6 goldfish and 3 comets in 2 days,


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## Genin (Feb 4, 2003)

wow this thread was a great read. i can't believe i looked over it before. please keep us updated as any new "events" or "conclusions" occur.

Joe


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