# Sps Capable Tank- What Would You Do?



## CLUSTER ONE

I am thinking something in the range or 10g, possibly a rimless from picoaquariums.com

-AIO tank (or possibly drilled with small sump)-a tank like 12" cube, 15x15x9, 10g
-ATO
-2 x par38 leds
-tunze nanoskimmer or aqua c remora
-korallia nano or 1 powerhead

I also have a mag 3 I have been considering using for an AIO pump or a return. Im considering drilling though I would like quality setup while still keeping it minimalistic so AIO is probably preferred as long as it still looks good.

Im looking to spend around 600$ or less for whatever I do not have. Im not counting livestock or other things i have around like a, testkits, salt, heater and korallia 1... in the budget.The budget is for pretty much skimmer, lights, tank and any other nice equipment like ATO and mayby a few other things like the light holders.

My main focus is a tank that can support primarily sps and lps (with some soft corals or something in the cracks or shadows)though I would like to keep minimal equipment viewable.

So, If you had up to 600$ (I'd prefer 500 or less so i can spend more on coral) for a sps capable reef what equipment would you do. I have a farily good idea on the stuff I want but there are so many options so i'd like to see what some or you guys would do. Id also like to try leds as the main lighting so either par30, par38 bulbs or some diy retrofit kit.


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## hyphen

i've seen small pico sps tanks as small as 3-5g, but long term i don't think its recommended. the branching nature and size of most sps will crowd the tank. gotta think of the growth patterns of the specific sps. a decent sized colony will grow to 6-8" in diameter. if i were you, i'd go with a 20L. gonna need more than koralia nano if that's all you have for circulation. you could drill the tank and use the mag3 as your return from your sump and then use a couple koralias for extra circultion. you could also run a closed loop with an extra pump.

also, mag 3 would be too strong for an ATO return, especially if it's an sps dominant because you might want to consider dosing kalk with your top-off water. kalk would need to be dosed slowly and a mag3 blasting that stuff into your tank is bad news and you may end up killing things.

-lights you can save money on with the evilc par 38s ($160 for 2)
-20L tank - not sure about cost, but it can't be more 40 or 50 new
-jbj ato - $80-100 depending on where you go
-ato reservoir - just a bucket or tub
-koralia nano 2 - 25-30
-10g sump w/ diy baffles $40-70 depending on how cheap you can get supplies 
-too many skimmers to list for in-sump design, but i would expect to spend $150-200
-sump plumbing - 20ish for pvc

just for that it's just shy of 600 and that's not including tax, shipping, etc. but while you're cycling with the necessary equipment you can always buy stuff later too. like cycle the tank and then buy the skimmer, ato and lights later.

i learned the hard way that skimping and rushing into the sps thing is bad. but after waiting it out and getting the proper equipment things seem to be going alright.


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## CLUSTER ONE

hyphen said:


> i've seen small pico sps tanks as small as 3-5g, but long term i don't think its recommended. the branching nature and size of most sps will crowd the tank. gotta think of the growth patterns of the specific sps. a decent sized colony will grow to 6-8" in diameter. if i were you, i'd go with a 20L. (15g is about hte maz I will go. I understand that for a small tank i will have tro keep trimmign it back) gonna need more than koralia nano if that's all you have for circulation.i have a k1. I ment that in addition to the sump/ato return you could drill the tank and use the mag3 as your return from your sump and then use a couple koralias for extra circultion. you could also run a closed loop with an extra pump. I have considered this but my conclusion was if i drill i may as well go sump over closed loop. If i ddrill it would be something simple like a central overflow and a return on either side
> 
> also, mag 3 would be too strong for an ATO return,ALL IN ONR RETURN not auto top off. a couple times i wrote ATO and AIO. The AIO pump would be some aqualifter or something small especially if it's an sps dominant because you might want to consider dosing kalk with your top-off water. Would I just mix it in the water or how would i go about this? kalk would need to be dosed slowly and a mag3 blasting that stuff into your tank is bad news and you may end up killing things.
> 
> -lights you can save money on with the evilc par 38s ($160 for 2)those were the oens i was looking at. Hopefully i can find a few other guys around me interested to get a group rate.
> -20L tank - not sure about cost, but it can't be more 40 or 50 new
> -jbj ato - $80-100 depending on where you go
> -ato reservoir - just a bucket or tub
> -koralia nano 2 - 25-30
> -10g sump w/ diy baffles $40-70 depending on how cheap you can get supplies I have a 10g sump now. it could work though I don't really want to go more then a 10g with 10g sump
> -too many skimmers to list for in-sump design, but i would expect to spend $150-200(i have looked and found a tunze nano and ac remora nano for about 150 new and 100 lightly used
> -sump plumbing - 20ish for pvc
> 
> just for that it's just shy of 600 and that's not including tax, shipping, etc. but while you're cycling with the necessary equipment you can always buy stuff later too. like cycle the tank and then buy the skimmer, ato and lights later.I was condiering this as I will be moving too so when setup i don't need everything to keep sps right way as the tank will need some time to stablilize
> 
> i learned the hard way that skimping and rushing into the sps thing is bad. but after waiting it out and getting the proper equipment things seem to be going alright.


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## hyphen

ATO/kalk is pretty easy. you just need a kalkwasser mix or limewater. i opted for brightwell aquatics kalk+2, it has the addition of magnesium and strontium. there are kalk calculators floating around, but you need to test your water's calcium and alk many times to see how much you need to dose and at what intervals. after you've figured everything out then you add the specified amount of kalk to your top off water (usually measured in tsp/gallon). i have one of my stock jbj pumps set to mix the reservoir once a day as well since the a lot of the kalk settles at the bottom (even though my kalk hasn't been added as my water changes are doing enough to keep my kalk above 450 for the time being). but this shouldnt be an issue until after you have a lot of sps sucking up the calcium in your water.

another option for dosing would be a two-part like b-ionic. but that would mean one of two things: you would have to dose manually every day or every other day based on calcium intake or you would have to spend another $200 on a dosing pump.


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## CLUSTER ONE

So i can mix the kalk in the ro ATo water and will not need a kalk reactor or anythign liek that for it?


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## greenmonkey51

In a tank that small there is no need for a skimmer. Most skimmers in that size are junk. You're better off doing more frequent water changes. With water changes you should be able to keep alkalinity and calcium up fairly easy without any other dosing. The most important part of this would be getting the biggest sump you can and keeping up with topoffs. I would do a 20g tall for a sump. You have the same footprint, but double the volume.

For flow you may want to consider having two 1" drains and then 4 return lines. If the returns are setup correctly you should be able to avoid powerheads. Normally I don't like high flow sumps, but with no skimmer its not as big of deal. You should probably consider a refugium also.


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## CLUSTER ONE

greenmonkey51 said:


> In a tank that small there is no need for a skimmer. Most skimmers in that size are junk.I would be lookign at tunze nano and ac remora which are known to be good skimmers for that tank size. I am aware water changes will work just as well though I would like a skimmer too just to be sure the water stays pristine even if I am too busy to change it some times or somethign like that You're better off doing more frequent water changes. With water changes you should be able to keep alkalinity and calcium up fairly easy without any other dosing.good point with this. What salt do you guys recommend? I have an almost full pail of IO though i could get another one eventually of a better salt The most important part of this would be getting the biggest sump you can and keeping up with topoffs.My aim is for a small total gallonage (about 15g-20g total at most) so for me a large sump will defeit my purpose. I am aware this will make it more difficult though I am just trying to work within some limitations that I will have for this tank I would do a 20g tall for a sump. You have the same footprint, but double the volume.
> 
> For flow you may want to consider having two 1" drains and then 4 return lines. If the returns are setup correctly you should be able to avoid powerheads. Normally I don't like high flow sumps, but with no skimmer its not as big of deal. You should probably consider a refugium also.I could do 6 holes though im not sure how confident I would be drilling 6 holes in a tank around only 10g as it only takes one hole to crack the tank. I don't want a refugium in the sump for similar reasons to not wanting a large sump. If I did a sump it would be very basic for heater, return, ato and mayby a skimmer. I may not even do any baffles.


The restrictions that I want to follow:
-farily small and compact system, <20g total (I will not have access to an ro unit so I will have to buy water and getting this water may be a pain due to availablity and transportation so I want to be able to use 10g of water for at least a few weeks. Setting up an RO unit will not be a possibility.)
-cost under 600$, preferably under 500$
-Low power consumption 
-No refuge as I want the only light being the display
-Minimal additional costs (no bulbs to replace...Im not talking about coral costs, just equipment costs to replace chem media, bulbs or whatever is needed)

I understand a larger tank is ideal but for various reasons not mentioned for my situation it will complicate things way more then I want to.


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## greenmonkey51

If you want any performance from a skimmer do not get a hang on. You also run a large risk of overflowing with hang on skimmers. Go with an Octopus 110. Its the same price range, but much better. With an in sump skimmer baffles are going to be definate. That water levels needs to be stable. For salt IO is fine. It just needs some calcium boosting.

If you want to do SPS, really sit down and think about it. Do you have time for daily maintenance. Once it gets going figure on spending 5-10 minutes a day messing with things. A big part of this is testing. Alkalinity is a major player in SPS. It will take close to 3-4 months to get dialed in. Which mean almost daily testing once corals are in til you know depletion rates.


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## CLUSTER ONE

greenmonkey51 said:


> If you want any performance from a skimmer do not get a hang on. You also run a large risk of overflowing with hang on skimmers. Go with an Octopus 110.better then tunze? Its the same price range, but much better. With an in sump skimmer baffles are going to be definate.There would be an ATO to keep the water level stable That water levels needs to be stable. For salt IO is fine. It just needs some calcium boosting.
> 
> If you want to do SPS, really sit down and think about it. Do you have time for daily maintenance. Once it gets going figure on spending 5-10 minutes a day messing with things. A big part of this is testing. Alkalinity is a major player in SPS. It will take close to 3-4 months to get dialed in. Which mean almost daily testing once corals are in til you know depletion rates.


I will be starting with sps rags and letting it grow from there so I will have plenty of time to learn more. I also will be waiting a few months for the tank to stabilize before adding sps


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## CLUSTER ONE

I think the 4 returns would look alot better then a powerhead so I drew up this quick:









I think the only way for this to be possible is with an extra pump as i don't think a 350gph pump will be as much current as i want so i am considering a mag 3 return then mayby a couple hundred gph closed loop with the intake through the bottom which could then be covered in rock work.


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## Guest

Nice paint skills.


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## CLUSTER ONE

Traveller said:


> Nice paint skills.


 thanks, usually people confuse my ms paint skills with photgraphs.


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## Deaner

CLUSTER ONE said:


> I think the 4 returns would look alot better then a powerhead so I drew up this quick:
> 
> View attachment 201392
> 
> 
> I think the only way for this to be possible is with an extra pump as i don't think a 350gph pump will be as much current as i want so i am considering a mag 3 return then mayby a couple hundred gph closed loop with the intake through the bottom which could then be covered in rock work.


why dont you just get a bigger pump?


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## CLUSTER ONE

Deaner said:


> I think the 4 returns would look alot better then a powerhead so I drew up this quick:
> 
> View attachment 201392
> 
> 
> I think the only way for this to be possible is with an extra pump as i don't think a 350gph pump will be as much current as i want so i am considering a mag 3 return then mayby a couple hundred gph closed loop with the intake through the bottom which could then be covered in rock work.


why dont you just get a bigger pump?
[/quote]
It would crush my budget if i need to spend 100$ plus on a new pump. I figure i can get some cheaper pump around 200-300gph for under 40$ then it would give a cool current pattern with 2 stronger outputs from the mag 3 then 2 weaker ones from the closed loop. Im still not certain if i would want to drill the bottom (to hide the intake for the closed loop) as i don't want sand getting in it and if there is a strainer sticking up i would always have to hide it in rock which would limit my options for scaping. I may look to see if i can find a used mag 5 or something and i could use valves to control the flow in each return. one problem with one maain pump is I wouldn't be able to put any returns midway down the tank as a loss in power would cause them to siphone water so I would have to put them all near the surface.


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## shiver905

Your not considering plumbing for a closed loop,

IT ADDS UP!!!!

-

Also running a 300gpg pump on a closed loop is pointless, 
Not worth the money AT ALL 
might as well get an mp10.


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## CLUSTER ONE

shiver905 said:


> Your not considering plumbing for a closed loop,
> 
> IT ADDS UP!!!!
> 
> -
> 
> Also running a 300gpg pump on a closed loop is pointless,
> Not worth the money AT ALL
> might as well get an mp10.


How much would you suggest for a closed loop if the tank is only about 10g and there is already a 350gph (minus abit of head loss) as a return?

Though I like this idea it does seem it will go over budget with all the bulkheads, plumbing... that i will need.


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## greenmonkey51

After headloss 500gph in a 10g is more than enough. Plumbing is cheap compared to an MP10 and doesn't break. Go with 1" bulkheads for the intakes. 1/2"-3/4" bulkheads for the two closed loop returns, and put the 2 overflow returns over the top. Plan it out well first, and you'll save considerable amount of money.


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## CLUSTER ONE

This is all still planning now and i have overhauled my plans a few times already.

For skimmer what would you do for around 200$ or less:

Here are some options (though does not have to be one of these):

-SWC 120 cone skimmer 
-AC remora
-tunze nano 9002
-vertex IN-80
-Bubble magnus cone (not sure on the models but one of their smaller ones)

....


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## Ægir

SWC cone for sure, I just went through comparing those skimmers actually









Thats what we are prob going to use for the 40 gal quarantine on my other project, because they are reasonably priced compared to some other cones (bubble king and magus) and still drawing similar air, and using less power.

In my opinion the 160 cone is worth the extra 50$ as well... it will give you the option to upgrade your tank in the future to something a little bigger, BUT if you dont have a fairly heavy bioload it might not skim as well, unless its set to skim a little more wet.


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## greenmonkey51

Any of those would be fine except for the Tunze or AquaC. Octopus also has a nice in sump skimmer.


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## CLUSTER ONE

Ægir said:


> SWC cone for sure, I just went through comparing those skimmers actually
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats what we are prob going to use for the 40 gal quarantine on my other project, because they are reasonably priced compared to some other cones (bubble king and magus) and still drawing similar air, and using less power.
> 
> In my opinion the 160 cone is worth the extra 50$ as well... it will give you the option to upgrade your tank in the future to something a little bigger, BUT if you dont have a fairly heavy bioload it might not skim as well, unless its set to skim a little more wet.


Ya so far the SWC is at the top of my list now as it seems to work good and looks sweet. Im not sure if i want the larger one as i know i won't be upgrading tanks to much if any larger for at least 5 years and after that time I could always just buy the newer model as 250$ isn't bad. Because of a small tank for at least 5 years i think the 120 would be much better as the bioload won't be too large so im sure the smaller skimmer could handle the load fine. From what i am reading the swc 120 on the site says mesh/needle wheel hybrid but is actually now a pin wheel and their site is just out of date. SWC is also in canada so shipping probably won't be bad for me.

Aquac is lower on my list but it is still there as they are said to work farily good and are easy and cheap to find used. Why no tunze? I have heard they have a farily cheap plastic housing but they skim pretty well for their size and power.

If i was to to a baffle with the water level on one side at 16" and the level on the other side at 8-12" (to operate the skimmer) do you think the water flowing over the baffles would be creating too much bubbles that would get pumped back into the display. I could raise the skimmer up abit but I would like it if the skimmer stays more in sump and not rising 1ft above it


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## greenmonkey51

The square housing isn't efficient for a proper swirling action in the skimmer. Skimmers have radically changed since I got in and out of saltwater. The tunze nano has stayed the same the entire time. I discount the AquaC because its a hang on and hang ons are junk. An insump skimmer can do just as good of job for half the price.

Your baffle plan probably won't work. The first compartment should have the skimmer followed by a bubble trap. Which is a piece of glass that is sandwiched between two baffles and is placed one inch off the bottom. This slows down bubbles from the skimmer. You'll want a one inch drop from the skimmer to the return compartment so water moves more efficient.


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## CLUSTER ONE

greenmonkey51 said:


> The square housing isn't efficient for a proper swirling action in the skimmer. Skimmers have radically changed since I got in and out of saltwater. The tunze nano has stayed the same the entire time. I discount the AquaC because its a hang on and hang ons are junk. An insump skimmer can do just as good of job for half the price. I didn't know that square housign was the chamber. I thought it was just an exterior housing to make it lo9oke pretty
> 
> Your baffle plan probably won't work. The first compartment should have the skimmer followed by a bubble trap. Which is a piece of glass that is sandwiched between two baffles and is placed one inch off the bottom.I am aware what it is, i have one on my current sump This slows down bubbles from the skimmer. You'll want a one inch drop from the skimmer to the return compartment so water moves more efficient.


When thinking of of cone skimmer I was actually thinking of this baffle drop on something like a 15-20g AIO type system with the overflow wall being down the middle the display on one side and the skimmer/ return on the other. Im not sure if an acylic overflow would be sturdy enough to withstand this pressure difference as silicone won't stick to it too well. 
A buble trap would be hard to add after the skimmer since it would be pretty much an open chameber with not much room left after a large skimmer and return and adding more baffles would add more complications. It is all hypothetical at this point but for this tank i want iit planned will so i can do it right the first time and give me an sps capable setup that can last me at least 5 years


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## Ægir

Build your sump to handle as much water as possible... keep in mind your clearance to get the skimmer in and remove the cup. Build a stand for the skimmer, and use the extra water to your advantage.


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## Deaner

CLUSTER ONE said:


> The square housing isn't efficient for a proper swirling action in the skimmer. Skimmers have radically changed since I got in and out of saltwater. The tunze nano has stayed the same the entire time. I discount the AquaC because its a hang on and hang ons are junk. An insump skimmer can do just as good of job for half the price. I didn't know that square housign was the chamber. I thought it was just an exterior housing to make it lo9oke pretty
> 
> Your baffle plan probably won't work. The first compartment should have the skimmer followed by a bubble trap. Which is a piece of glass that is sandwiched between two baffles and is placed one inch off the bottom.I am aware what it is, i have one on my current sump This slows down bubbles from the skimmer. You'll want a one inch drop from the skimmer to the return compartment so water moves more efficient.


When thinking of of cone skimmer I was actually thinking of this baffle drop on something like a 15-20g AIO type system with the overflow wall being down the middle the display on one side and the skimmer/ return on the other. Im not sure if an acylic overflow would be sturdy enough to withstand this pressure difference as silicone won't stick to it too well. 
A buble trap would be hard to add after the skimmer since it would be pretty much an open chameber with not much room left after a large skimmer and return and adding more baffles would add more complications. It is all hypothetical at this point but for this tank i want iit planned will so i can do it right the first time and give me an sps capable setup that can last me at least 5 years
[/quote]

Go with the SWC cone 120, or SWC cone 160, FOR SURE. I have heard so many people say good things about them. Im going to get one myself eventually


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## CLUSTER ONE

I am liking the 120 cone now. I like how its pump is in the body so it is more compact then other in sump skimmers with the pump on the outsde of the body.


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## Deaner

CLUSTER ONE said:


> I am liking the 120 cone now. I like how its pump is in the body so it is more compact then other in sump skimmers with the pump on the outsde of the body.


also these skimmers can come totally apart, for easy cleaning of every part.


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## CLUSTER ONE

Even better I found one locally new (from mops.ca- i can pickup) for 225 which is the same price as SWC sells them for. Big als also has them for 300$ so I wonder if i can price match it from big als and get it for an extra 5% off.


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## Ægir

CLUSTER ONE said:


> Even better I found one locally new (from mops.ca- i can pickup) for 225 which is the same price as SWC sells them for. Big als also has them for 300$ so I wonder if i can price match it from big als and get it for an extra 5% off.


Let me know how that works out, I am looking for a place to order one because my LFS isnt associated with any of their dealers.


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## CLUSTER ONE

Salt water connection, mops... have them and they may ship to the usa. Big als canada has them so big als online usa may too.


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## Deaner

CLUSTER ONE said:


> Salt water connection, mops... have them and they may ship to the usa. Big als canada has them so big als online usa may too.


http://www.shop.reeffiltration.com/category.sc?categoryId=2

These guys sell them in the states for the same prices


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## Ægir

Deaner said:


> http://www.shop.reeffiltration.com/category.sc?categoryId=2
> 
> These guys sell them in the states for the same prices


Have you ever ordered anything from them? I wonder if they stock them, or just middle man the sales.


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## Deaner

Ægir said:


> http://www.shop.reef...sc?categoryId=2
> 
> These guys sell them in the states for the same prices


Have you ever ordered anything from them? I wonder if they stock them, or just middle man the sales.
[/quote]

they stock them i believe. ive talked to people that have ordered them off there


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## Ægir

Deaner said:


> they stock them i believe. ive talked to people that have ordered them off there


It says in stock on the 120, but not the 160. I will call them and ask!

I am just apprehensive to order off the internet most times unless i know the website or distributor. Looks like we might have to start a cone skimmer club!


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## shiver905

Your plumbing added up to over 100$ + pump + some extras

You can cut some costs without going closed loop and haveing one return.
I doubled up my return for a previous tank, but it had not benifit.

From what iv noticed with sps is that they hate direct flow, So id say a wavemaker is key.
Id really consiter --- nano wavebox / mp10 / few evo korolinas on a timer. either of them will do fine.

Also poking holes in your tank isnt the greatest thing to do to it. Save yourself a plumbing headache and just go simple.

---

If you made up your mind on a closed loop CONSIDER an SCWD (http://www.aquariumsupplies.ca/scwd-switching-current-water-director-wavemaker-p-3275.html)
. If you go with 2 returns might as well go with 2 swcds.

BTW, Remember ball valves on everything that puts out water into your tank. You might need to turn it down one day and if you dont have the option you'll kick yourslef.
BTW, Remember unions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, try to avoid clear pipeing. You dont want to deal with the algea build up.


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## CLUSTER ONE

I am abit hesitant on scwd as from what i heard they do best with larger sized pumps and after some use the smaller models often stick.

I beleive the new k series powerheads are all waver maker capable so I may try one of those on a timer and eventually get an actual wavemaker. What other things are there for wave makers other then mp10's as for kseries plus a times it is just on and off and there is no real smooth transition.

On a side note to shiver I got myself a maxi mini from reef raft and it is sweet. Awsome store too and I will probably be going back to get more soon.


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