# Got some real MONSTERS today!!!



## JD7.62 (Apr 7, 2005)

Today I went up to Indianapolis to sell/trade/buy some fish. I had a rough start to my day cause my baby aro got loose from his breeder trap I was growing him up in and got swallowed by the dat I was trying to catch!!

Well my day gets better.....LOTS better!

I traded my 9" D. Microlepis for this beautiful red tail Payara! I also sold my ray and some other fish so I had some cash in my pocket and decided to hit some LFS Indy had to offer with the guys. (this pic is of the fish taken by and in the tank of his original owner)









The first store we walked into had one of those big tanks with oscars, midas, and other large fish people didnt want any more so I quickly scanned over it when my jaw hit the floor as I saw a beautiful 12" ATF swim by!!! Thinking this fish was at least $250 cause everything else they had was high and knowing these fish are pricey to begin with I about sh*t my self when I saw he was 99.99!! Even though thats a steal of a deal I managed to talk them down to 90 bones!
(these pics are at the LFS and in the bucket also taken by the original owner of the payara)

























Any way I started the day hoping to get some nice characins thinking Id probably end up with some Acestros or maybe a wolf fish but damn I never expected this!


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## Bsixxx (Aug 31, 2006)

JD7.62 said:


> Today I went up to Indianapolis to sell/trade/buy some fish. I had a rough start to my day cause my baby aro got loose from his breeder trap I was growing him up in and got swallowed by the dat I was trying to catch!!
> 
> Well my day gets better.....LOTS better!
> 
> ...


dang niiice find

:}

and beautiful payara


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## Z♠NGT♥KER (Dec 27, 2005)

looks very nice man.....nice pick up


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## SLANTED (Dec 7, 2003)

$90 for a 12" vitt is the steal of the century. Very nice pickup and the tatauaia looks very nice as well. Congrats.


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## blazednosferatu (Feb 27, 2006)

Both are badass looking fish


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## Snake_Eyes (Jun 14, 2006)

Congrats on the pickup, the ATF looks especially badass.


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## jmax611 (Aug 6, 2006)

i want one of the atf


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I'm not sure if I'd house those two fish together.







Tigerfish are a bit more aggro than the payara.

Either way, both are excellent fish!


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## JD7.62 (Apr 7, 2005)

Ive been watching it closely. Also at the pet shop he was there in a 450 for 3 weeks with all kinds of fish and none appeared to be torn up. So far he has not even touched my 3.5" clown loach that is in the tank. He actually gets punked out by my 6" Indo dat!!

Ive seen people over at MFK keep ATFs with all kinds of fish from frontosas to large clown loaches, payara, dats, bichirs and more with success.


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## joefish219 (Feb 8, 2005)

yeah that ATf was a steal. looks mean as hell. surprised that it cohabs with loaches and payara but great pick up


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## spinalremains (Nov 10, 2006)

Very nice! What size tank are these guys in? My cousin has about an 11'' armatus. Its an insanely aggressive fish and never fails to put on a good show while being fed. The owner of the LFS had no idea what this fish was. They had it come with an order and sold it cheap imo for 60 bucks. Good luck with those guys and post some more pics in the future as they get bigger!


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## ICEE (Feb 3, 2007)

great pickup







ATF r sweet


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## flashover00 (Oct 19, 2006)

good deals man
nice looking fish


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## JD7.62 (Apr 7, 2005)

Holy sh*t an Armatus for $60 is an AMAZING steal!

I dont know why everyone is saying ATFs are so aggressive cause most people keep them in Monster Communities no problem!

Here are some updated pics in my tank...

























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## MONGO  (Feb 7, 2006)

how big is your tank?


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

JD7.62 said:


> Holy sh*t an Armatus for $60 is an AMAZING steal!
> 
> I dont know why everyone is saying ATFs are so aggressive cause most people keep them in Monster Communities no problem!


its because there isn't anyone that is housing an adult. The ones I think you're talking about being house in a community are R1Ridah's He is housing with other ATF's, Tarpon, thouse striped flag tail charichans, clown loaches and widebar dats. And he is one of the few lucky owners of a True Goliath ATF. None are small enough to readly be meals and I think he is pretty good about keeping them fed. He's also keeping his in a 600 gallon tank IIRC. Now R1 did lose a couple ATFs to one of his tigrinus cats. But again these were still small ones and he was testing them to see if the goliath could cohab in that tank with the tigrinus. they got eaten so that was a no go.

The other guy that had a successfull ATF shoal was Tigerfangs over on WW. he was housing in I think a 900 gallon tank and had 6-7 Vitattus and a single goliath. I think all were still well under 2 ft. before he moved and sold them all. I don't think he was keeping them with any other fish. I will have to go back. its been a year since i kept up on other peoples tiger tanks. and since my last one died.. well.. *sniff* *sniff*

Those are the two main dudes that are/were keeping ATF's in shoals.

oh then theres also me. I was keeping mine with an arrowana, Bichir, convicts and there was a clown loach in there at one point. oh and a pleco. 
The tiger didn't kill anything. (except the danios I fed him). But thats not to say that the tiger wasen't eventually going to kill the arrowana or others. 
Tigers are like puppies. they like to buddy up and play nip, for some fish this dosen't work well and it stresses them to death. 
I see the ATF possibly and unintentionally stressing the payara to death.

Anyways altho they are somwhat docile in aquaria keep in mind they are the only fish known for fighting with crockadiles in the wild. So that should lend a hint that as they mature and get past juvinile stages they take on a big attitude change and realize they are pretty close to the top of the food chain.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

^ thank goodness somebody has the sense to back me up









They can often go for 'silvery' fishes, that's the potential danger. But just keep an eye on things and let us know how it works. I dont hang out too much on MFK, but I moderate the characin part of WaterWolves, so I figure I knew at least one or two things.


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## JD7.62 (Apr 7, 2005)

Ive done LOTS of research and not a noob. I understand the ATFs potential. However most people that have kept both payara and ATFs tend to say that the payara are more aggressive of the two. In my experience SO FAR I find this true as the payara every now and then will take a swipe at the ATF yet the ATF has never chased anything but feeders. Im keeping an eye out (easy to do sine tank is in my living room) and will keep you all updated.

My tank is small now (125) but has three large powerheads at one end that seems to keep everyone content for now. A 300 will be here in a month or so. Yes I know the ATF will outgrow that as well but when he does Im no joke going to get him mounted!!


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Never called you a noob.









But maybe you should check out the experiences of those that have mixed these fish at Waterwolves.

Also, if you're lucky, the payara will outgrow the 300 too.

But you already knew that, so I guess I'll stop trying to help.


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## oscar119 (Nov 26, 2005)

acestro said:


> ^ thank goodness somebody has the sense to back me up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And nothing against all your knowledge but to touch on what BS said and maybe a disagreement if I understand what he's saying correctly. I've seen close to 2ft armatus and probably similar size ATF living in the same tank with rays and others. And the tank was probably no more than 200g's.

Not to say this works everytime because in the fish world there are exceptions to every rule and this might be the exception. Usually it's the exceptions to that rule that cause the most arguments. I know of people who keep 12-14" dorado's in 200g communitys with arows and trimac with very very little problems and most would say no way that would ever work. And of course people who keep 300g tanks with more midas/rd's in it than you would ever believe possible. There are always exceptions.

But I'd put a ATF in a large fish community tank before I would an african odoe..

Oh and from what I hear you should be more scared of the hippos than the crocs BS.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Hippos are hella scary!









The rules are important because these fish are valuable. If you have enough money, you can experiment and maybe get lucky (or just buy more fish and try again). Of course there are teh ethics of multiple failed experiments with rare fish that aren't bred in captivity.



tigerfangs said:


> It won't fool the ATFs, you'll still end up with only one ATF, who will eventually kill off the dithers. ATFs are not for everyone, they will kill most tankmates as they grow and and become increasingly capable of dismembering large prey items. The tankmates I've found to be left alone are Bichirs, Plecos, Gar (but careful of Gar, as they grow rapidly and can pose a very real threat if they outgrow the ATF).


this is the kind of advice I go off of.


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## oscar119 (Nov 26, 2005)

acestro said:


> this is the kind of advice I go off of.


But are sure this won't work or are there ways of altering things to get it to work? It's good to take advice but not everyone is an expert. And well do we know if a temp. change would have led to more sucess, tank size bigger or smaller would have been better, cover in tank was adequete or would have been better with less.. all things that can vary and cause something to work or not work. Normally I would say no one is an expert in every fish and it usually holds true but you know alot of sh#t acestro so I can say "not everyone"


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## JD7.62 (Apr 7, 2005)

Wow this thread blew up! It went days with few replies then this!

Anyhow when I said Im not a noob I just simply meant that I didnt go to a LFS and buy them and tossed them in my tank and hoped for the best.

Again I fully understand that this CAN and has worked in th past as well that sometimes it DOES NOT work!!

As far as ethical treatment goes I think that by providing them a home in an aquarium, chances are they have a better chance surviving to adult hood then in the wild. Neither fish are rare or threatened in the wild. They are just rarely imported. Hence I have no problem getting them mounted once the outgrow my tank.

So far so good but I know its only been a few days so in the long run means nothing. However like I said earlier when at the LFS where he stayed for a month with tons of other fish (oscars, JD, Midas, Bala sharks, Plecos and more) none seemed to have been attacked by this beast.

Here are some pics of a BIG armatus and ATF in a small tank cohabing. They do bicker but it CAN be done! Do I think Ill have this kind of success? Actually no, but I sure hope I do!


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Just sharing opinions, and I dont think the aquarium industry is really hurting the species that we're discussing. I think mounting a ATF is a great idea!

Almost every fish in that tank you posted is too big of a species for that tank, btw. And I think more than a couple people would back that opinion up. But there's no debating that there are awesome fish in there! Possibly thousands of dollars worth!

Regarding the 'expert' thing. I never realized how weird of a question that was. I'd consider tigerfangs an expert on ATF. But I dont know exactly what it takes to be called an expert.









All that said, I think it'd be really cool if it worked out for ya.


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## JD7.62 (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah that tank is small but there are some close up pics in that set of each fish and no one would argue that they are unhealthy either!!
Those people in Asia do the darndest things!!


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

That reminds me of an old member (Peacock) and his rants about overcrowding and tanks in Asia.


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## moron (May 26, 2006)

congrats on the new fish! I love the payara.


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## oscar119 (Nov 26, 2005)

acestro said:


> Just sharing opinions, and I dont think the aquarium industry is really hurting the species that we're discussing. I think mounting a ATF is a great idea!
> 
> Almost every fish in that tank you posted is too big of a species for that tank, btw. And I think more than a couple people would back that opinion up. But there's no debating that there are awesome fish in there! Possibly thousands of dollars worth!
> 
> ...


No one can deny people in asia in an effort to save the little space they have crowd too big of species into too small of a tank. Someone over there grew a 21" dovii in a 48x24 tank. But that was on WW so you probably seen it.

I wasn't harping on anyone but certainly not just the average fishkeeper is an expert on all aquarium fish and once an experiment fails we rarely have enough money or morale to try to the experiment over and over to see what will make it work.

I realize what everyone was trying to do in this thread. And that is be proactive in educating a fishkeeper about what shouldn't work or most times might not. It's a good habit to get into, and I try to do the same. I do think sometimes that we as people who ethically want the best for fish and want save someone heartache judge someones experiance level or freedom to try a combination unjustly though. I've been guilty of the same in the past.

Lastly, Acestro you're always "the man" in my book. The cichlid killer. And probably one of the most informed people on these boards and the internet itself. So don't take any of this the wrong way. BS same to you. Nothing against you or what you believe just expanding the debate to show another side.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Thanks man, and I agree with your points.

I think the key is to examine why these crowding 'tricks' work (or seem to work) for the Asian tanks. Is there something we dont see (hourly water changes :laugh: maybe a huge sump). I also wonder if the pictures are taken early or later, in terms of of how long the residents have been there (raised from being youngsters? thrown in right before the photo was taken?







I honestly dont know).

I was one of the sneaky folks mixing Africans and CA/SA cichlids a while back when it was allegedly 'impossible' to do. But I still toed the line as far as being cautious, because not all CA/SA cichlids can deal with African lake cichlid water conditions and vice-versa. Also, a lot of these questions require long term examination and replication, which is kind of a lot to ask of hobbyists.


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## JD7.62 (Apr 7, 2005)

I think part of the problem is the definition of long term. I mean what is it exactly? One year, five years, Ten? The life of the fish? These fish, especially the ATF I would assume to live 15+ years. Personally I would feel successful if I kept these fish 3years+ in the 300 yet some people might say that compared to the potential life span of these fish 3 years is still considered short-term. I cant seem to find anyone that has kept ATFs for more then a few years...anyone know?


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

JD7.62 said:


> I think part of the problem is the definition of long term. I mean what is it exactly? One year, five years, Ten? The life of the fish? These fish, especially the ATF I would assume to live 15+ years. Personally I would feel successful if I kept these fish 3years+ in the 300 yet some people might say that compared to the potential life span of these fish 3 years is still considered short-term. I cant seem to find anyone that has kept ATFs for more then a few years...anyone know?


See here inlies the problem. VERY few people are equiped to keep an ATF for "long term" if any. I hear about 2ft fish. thats why I say that there really isn't anyone that can say first hand in the hobby. I know what didn't work for me. any by no means was I implying you are a newb. just the fact that you are planning out your keeping of this fish shows forsight that I see ignored far too often. your talking 300gal. thats a good start. And mounting the fish. Cool. It is a game fish. Its not a uber rare fish or even a closely endangered. Rare in the hobby yeah. But only because of the inablity of 99.9% of people to house these things for "life". But people do take trips to africa to fish for these bastard fish.

BTW who's tank is that you had pictured with the payara rays and tiger? That looks to be a goliath. lucky bastard. If it is a goliath its got about 5X the size to grow. Babies I tell ya, that little guys only about 1.5ft. looks like a 150 gal tall. yeah.. not gonna work. poor fish looks like a RBP in a 10 gal.
true filtration can keep the water clean and LOTS of waterchanges will keep the conditions in check. But that fish has no swimming room. Yeah its alive but come on man. You own one now. you can see how they swim. they HAVE to have swimming room. Yeah it will live. theres one guy that got his pretty big in a 30 gallon tank. Just IMO you miss out on the ultimate potential this fish has by confining it to such a tiny space. might as well just mount it.

anyways I'm not trying to say that mixing the ATF absoloutly won't work. All i'm saying Is that I would not expect for anything to survive the long run with it. 2" teeth are hard to deal with when your talking about a fish that moves like lightning. 
Keeping tank mates is something I personally never expected to have any success at long term, but I wish you the best of luck. 
Do keep us updated on this fish. 
and the payara also.


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## oscar119 (Nov 26, 2005)

BlackSunshine said:


> BTW who's tank is that you had pictured with the payara rays and tiger? That looks to be a goliath. lucky bastard. If it is a goliath its got about 5X the size to grow. Babies I tell ya, that little guys only about 1.5ft. looks like a 150 gal tall. yeah.. not gonna work. poor fish looks like a RBP in a 10 gal.
> true filtration can keep the water clean and LOTS of waterchanges will keep the conditions in check. But that fish has no swimming room. Yeah its alive but come on man. You own one now. you


I in no way agree with how they keep fish over there, but wanted to point out I think "drip filtration" is getting more popular and allowing things like this to work. That ATF should be 2ft though as the payara was reported as being 2ft and they're about the same size. That tank is someones in taiwan and picture was taken by someone on a visit there. Oh and that is a goliath, that's a armatus too. Not to mention the rays and huge tig cat... yeah he's a lucky bastard. But I used to hear asia gets all the best fish first because they'll pay for them. And from what I've seen. They do.


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