# how long will they last?



## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

ive been feeding my ps a lot of krill lately but theyve been eating it right up. i dont let the krill rot in there? but seeing as how ive been feeding them a lot, i decided to check the ammonia and it is about .5?! will my ps be okay until i get home from school later today to change the water?

i change my water every week 33% every monday and always check the ammoniaand it may be .25 by monday but its usually 0. but today is thursday and it is already high?! think its just because ive been feeding them more or there is some krill decomposing somewhere? can i feed them before school or wait till i get home?


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## LOON (Jan 30, 2004)

I am not sure what .5 ammonia will do if anything to them. Makesure when you get home have a good gravel vac and look under driftwood etc to see if you got any rotting food anywhere. I found a fish head when I last lifted my driftwood !

I hope your P's are ok.


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

thanks for the fast reply. they are acting fine. nothing would lead me to believe anything was wrong except it seemed that they wouldnt stop eating. maybe its because they are getting used to me.

can i still feed em before i go to school? byw ive been feeding them freeze dried krill if that makes a difference


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## smithgrind_who (Mar 26, 2004)

Hey iwantapiranha, I would suggest doing 20% water changes every other day until the ammonia is back to 0.0ppm. There might be a piece of krill some where in the aquarium rotting, making the bio-load to exceed the biological filter. Piranhas are messy eaters so maybe your biological filter is just trying to catch up, and the fact you have been feeding them more krill will increase the amount of decomposing food. Since you have an ammonia spike, I would check your nirtrItes and see what level that is at. You might, but not certain, get a nitrIte spike too.

As for feeding them, try to feed them less food until the water's parameters have reached better levels. This will help get your water at better numbers, and the fish won't get to stressed out from rising ammonia and nitrItes.


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## acidWarp (Jun 30, 2003)

Do small water changes every day or two nd you may want to add some ammonia detoxifying product like ammo-lock or something until the levels reduce back down to zero.


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Is it it a Nessler or Sallicylate based ammonia test kit ????


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2005)

iwantapiranha said:


> I think its just because ive been feeding them more or there is some krill decomposing somewhere? can i feed them before school or wait till i get home?
> [snapback]853514[/snapback]​


There are some good suggestions in this thread.

The food doesn't have to decome in the tank to produce ammonia. Ammonia can be produced as the fish digests protein. It's the amine group deaminated from the amino acid as the fish metabolizes the protein.

Another possibility is that the pH dropped too low and is causing the nitrifying bacteria to slow down.

Until you find out what went wrong, You may want to reduce the amount your feeding them and see if it makes a difference.


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

thanks for the advice. i just gravel vaced and what not. i also removed the bio-bag cartidge from my filter and cleaned it off and put it back in? am i not supposed to do this? also when should i change it?

o yeah im going to test the lvls tomorrow morning. im sleeeepy.


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

I would also get ammonia rocks, and amqueL + TO HELP


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

bah i just tested my ammonia this morning. and its still not 0! i dont see what the problem is. even after i gravel vaced and everything there was not a lot of waste @ all! someone help me!

would this have anything to do with it?: the fact that before i feed my ps with the freeze dried krill i dunk it in the same cup of water to remove any small pieces (it says to presoak)?


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

someone help me! im scurred!


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

Change the water ASAP. It seems like your bio-filtration is little to none. Do a nice water change to bring those levels down.


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

Filo said:


> Change the water ASAP. It seems like your bio-filtration is little to none. Do a nice water change to bring those levels down.
> [snapback]856158[/snapback]​


as i said i did a 33% water change. i should do another? there was little to no debris.

also is it bad that that i cleaned the biobag?

once more: would this have anything to do with it?: the fact that before i feed my ps with the freeze dried krill i dunk it in the same cup of water to remove any small pieces (it says to presoak)?


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

Well the biobag could have been holding a lot of good bacteria. But if ammonia is still high, I would water change again. Even if you cant see debris, you can still have ammonia.


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

Filo said:


> Well the biobag could have been holding a lot of good bacteria. But if ammonia is still high, I would water change again. Even if you cant see debris, you can still have ammonia.
> [snapback]856221[/snapback]​


alright ill do a water change again. but as i said before: would this have anything to do with it?: the fact that before i feed my ps with the freeze dried krill i dunk it in the same cup of water to remove any small pieces (it says to presoak)?

also what happens had i removed the bacteria from the biobag??!


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

iwantapiranha said:


> alright ill do a water change again. but as i said before: would this have anything to do with it?: the fact that before i feed my ps with the freeze dried krill i dunk it in the same cup of water to remove any small pieces (it says to presoak)?
> 
> also what happens had i removed the bacteria from the biobag??!
> [snapback]856573[/snapback]​


The feeding shouldnt cause such a huge ammonia spike...

the biobag could have been holding a lot of your good bacteria, that bacteria helps convert the ammonia that fish make, into nitrite then nitrate.


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

Filo said:


> The feeding shouldnt cause such a huge ammonia spike...
> 
> the biobag could have been holding a lot of your good bacteria, that bacteria helps convert the ammonia that fish make, into nitrite then nitrate.
> [snapback]856622[/snapback]​


i cleaned the biobag after water change


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## Mack (Oct 31, 2004)

Add Bio-Spira.


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## smithgrind_who (Mar 26, 2004)

iwantapiranha said:


> i cleaned the biobag after water change
> [snapback]856651[/snapback]​


I hope you cleaned it in old aquarium water and not in tap water.


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## Mack (Oct 31, 2004)

Pff. I clean my filter cartridge in warm tap water all the time and I have never had an ammonia problem.


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

bah! i did another water change and the ammonia is still .5!

i cleaned it in tapwater but after the ammonia problem occured

add bio spira?

i added some ammo-lock


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

.5 is not too bad. Just keep an eye on it, make sure it doesnt go higher than that. Bio Spira helps with the beneficial bacteria needed to control ammonia.


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## LOON (Jan 30, 2004)

Always clean your filter media in tank water. Tap water will kill off your bacteria.


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

LOON said:


> Always clean your filter media in tank water. Tap water will kill off your bacteria.
> [snapback]856905[/snapback]​


Crap, so should I add some bio spira?

Also, my friend said I should change my bio-bag? He says thats probably the problem.

PLZ HELP. I WANT MY Ps TO LIVE.


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

iwantapiranha said:


> Crap, so should I add some bio spira?
> 
> Also, my friend said I should change my bio-bag? He says thats probably the problem.
> PLZ HELP. I WANT MY Ps TO LIVE.
> [snapback]857070[/snapback]​


what filter do you have? maybe a friend can help you out by giving you a filter cartridge. I would add bio spira, because basically what is happening, you have caused a mini-cycle/


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

Filo said:


> what filter do you have? maybe a friend can help you out by giving you a filter cartridge. I would add bio spira, because basically what is happening, you have caused a mini-cycle/
> [snapback]857576[/snapback]​


a whisper 30...........

but the .5 ammonia was before i did anything to the bio-bag


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

what size tank? it is starting to sound like your bioload is too high (over stocked)


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

OK MAN... calm down. Take a couple of deep breaths. It will be OK. As Filo said .5 is not to terribly bad. You just want to prevent it from going any higher.. I had a problem like yours several years ago and my piranhas lived about a week in an ammonia level of 8!! Yes, 8 ... I think that is probably unusual..

However, got some questions.. How big of a tank do you have? Also how many piranhas do you have in that tank.. How often do you feed?


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

lwrlevel said:


> OK MAN... calm down. Take a couple of deep breaths. It will be OK. As Filo said .5 is not to terribly bad. You just want to prevent it from going any higher.. I had a problem like yours several years ago and my piranhas lived about a week in an ammonia level of 8!! Yes, 8 ... I think that is probably unusual..
> 
> However, got some questions.. How big of a tank do you have? Also how many piranhas do you have in that tank.. How often do you feed?
> [snapback]858088[/snapback]​


im calm. Just not figuring out the problem is irritating. I have 2 small Ps in a 30 long and I feed em 2x a day.

In order of significance:
1) I change my water once a week every Monday
2) On random days (towards the end of the week) I check the ammonia and nitrite levels. Ammonia is usally 0 (nitrite is always 0), but if not, I change the water ASAP and problem solved.
3) This week, I checked my ammonia lvl on Thursday and it was 0.5
4) I gravel vaced throughly and checked for rotting food (none).
5) I check ammonia later on in the day and it is still .5
6) I gravel vac once more the next day.
7) Also, I clean the bio-bag on my whisper 30 with tap water (which I just found out is not good) because I figured since the gravel vacing wasnt working, maybe it was something in my filter.
8) Ammonia still reads .5
9) Add some ammo-lock just in case
10) I tell my friend of my original problem and he says I probably need to change my bio-bag. He says his mom changes her filter cartridge monthly or something. I have had my bio-bag since October.

So...what I figure I should do is add bio-spira and replace my biobag?


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

if the level holds at .5 for that long, it should hold for longer--till your next water change when it drops. What filter on that tank do you have?


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

Filo said:


> if the level holds at .5 for that long, it should hold for longer--till your next water change when it drops. What filter on that tank do you have?
> [snapback]858306[/snapback]​


what are you talking about...? you're saying its miraculously going to drop the next time i do a water change?

AS i stated earlier in my last post which i thought was clear; i have a whisper 30 power filter with bio-bag cartridge.

seriously filo are you just trying to gain more posts or what....

IN ESSENSE once once more: my ammonia wont drop from .5 even after 2 water changes. there is no decaying food. my friend thinks i just need to change my bio-bad. possibly?

WOW ammonia definately through the roof now: 4.0+?! hellllppp


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

iwantapiranha said:


> what are you talking about...? you're saying its miraculously going to drop the next time i do a water change?
> 
> seriously filo are you just trying to gain more posts or what....
> 
> [snapback]858344[/snapback]​


man, why are you bagging on someone for trying to help!








For what I have read in this post, Filo has been very informative and helpful. Whether you take his advice of not is up to you.. Its just not cool... he's trying to help!


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

iwantapiranha said:


> what are you talking about...? you're saying its miraculously going to drop the next time i do a water change?
> 
> AS i stated earlier in my last post which i thought was clear; i have a whisper 30 power filter with bio-bag cartridge.
> 
> ...


4.0+ ... huh. I am afraid to offer anymore advice as you might think I am trying to gain more posts :laugh:


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

iwantapiranha said:


> IN ESSENSE once once more: my ammonia wont drop from .5 even after 2 water changes. there is no decaying food. my friend thinks i just need to change my bio-bad. possibly?[snapback]858344[/snapback]​


If you keep detectable ammonia, you might not have enough filtration to handle the bioload. A fully cycled tank with enough filtration has no ammonia, because the filtermedia can house enough bacteria to convert all ammonia. If there's not enough room for all the required bacterai, you'll continue to have detectable ammonia levels.
For what size tank is your filter rated?

Some more things to consider:
- did you test for ammonia with the same test kit over and over again? If so, try a different one and see what the results are;
- feed smaller portions and not as much as you do now;
- cleaning filtermedia and do water changes a few times per week won't solve structural problems. Nor does throwing in buckets of chemicals. Try to stabilize things first (even if that means detectable ammonia) before your next move.

btw: I understand your concern, but a slightly more constructive/appreciative attitude towards those that try to help you would be nice... It would suck to be left out in the cold because of the way you treat those that want to help, would it?


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

lwrlevel said:


> 4.0+ ... huh. I am afraid to offer anymore advice as you might think I am trying to gain more posts :laugh:
> [snapback]858758[/snapback]​


you are if you just put 2 posts in a row......trick :laugh:



Judazzz said:


> If you keep detectable ammonia, you might not have enough filtration to handle the bioload. A fully cycled tank with enough filtration has no ammonia, because the filtermedia can house enough bacteria to convert all ammonia. If there's not enough room for all the required bacterai, you'll continue to have detectable ammonia levels.
> For what size tank is your filter rated?
> 
> Some more things to consider:
> ...


I haven't had this problem until thursday January 20th. And i had my tank since Octoberish?

My filter is rated for 30 gallon tanks. According to the Piranha-Fury calculator, my tank is a 28 gal i think.

I tested for ammonia with the same kit. I don't think it has proven me wrong before.
I will feed smaller portions.
How do I stabilize things? By feeding small portions.

Maybe i made matters worse my rinsing my bio-bad in tap water









Yeah I'm sorry for my attitude I was just irritated because it seems i have to repeat myself over and over again and what i truly ask isnt being answered. But shouldn't of been rude. Sorry.


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

iwantapiranha said:


> what are you talking about...? you're saying its miraculously going to drop the next time i do a water change?
> 
> AS i stated earlier in my last post which i thought was clear; i have a whisper 30 power filter with bio-bag cartridge.
> 
> ...


Usually ammonia does drop with water change. It sounds like you need another filter to hold more bacteria. I will keep helping you, because I don't want to hear your fish died. The only thing you can do to lower your ammonia for now, is water change <--u did that, Amquel Plus (removes ammonia), feed your fish less (less waste/sh*t), or possibly ammonia rocks, get em at your LFS.


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

Filo said:


> Usually ammonia does drop with water change. It sounds like you need another filter to hold more bacteria. I will keep helping you, because I don't want to hear your fish died. The only thing you can do to lower your ammonia for now, is water change <--u did that, Amquel Plus (removes ammonia), feed your fish less (less waste/sh*t), or possibly ammonia rocks, get em at your LFS.
> [snapback]859304[/snapback]​


Thanks. Sorry for being rude.

More questions sorry: Is Amquel Plus the same as ammo-lock (which "detoxifies ammonia) or it actually removes it?

No Bio-Spira? even considering I thoroughly washed out my bio-bag cartridge with tap water?
No new bio-bag?


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

Well my bottle says REMOVES ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, chlorine, and choramines. I dont think you need biospira, i mean it wouldnt hurt, but it sounds like you just need more filter media...so in conclusion

Get a new filter, with a big sponge in it to hold a lot of bacteria.


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

Filo said:


> Well my bottle says REMOVES ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, chlorine, and choramines. I dont think you need biospira, i mean it wouldnt hurt, but it sounds like you just need more filter media...so in conclusion
> Get a new filter, with a big sponge in it to hold a lot of bacteria.
> [snapback]859471[/snapback]​


a whole new filter?! or a new bio-bag cartridge?


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

I agree with Filo: I'd get an additional filter, or replace your current one by a more powerful one.
Even though your filter is rated for a 30g tank (and in theory should be sufficient), most filter manufacturers have in mind a relatively small bioload, created by standard community tanks (you know, guppies, tetra's, cory cats, stuff like that).
Piranha's are much more messy than community fish however, eat more, crap more, and eat more polluting food items, so the filter recommendations don't really apply to piranha (or other predatory/messy fish) tanks - they need more powerful and more efficient filtration to deal with the bioload.
For a piranha tank, a filter rated at least 1,5 times the tank you have is about the bare minimum - in your case, look for a filter that is rated for at least a 45-50 gallon tank.
I'm pretty sure that if you get a more powerful and efficient filter, your problems are likely to disappear.

If you install a new filter, keep the old one running for at least a few weeks: if you don't do that, you take away most of the bacteria, and your tank and fish will have to go through the cycling process once more...
If you get a new filter, just start it and wait - no need to add chemicals or replace/clean filter media.

Oh, and with stabilizing I meant to let your tank be for at least a few days - each time you do a water change, clean filter cartridges or toss in chemicals, the tank needs to adapt to the changes: in other words, the tank is unstable.

Good luck


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## Fido (May 21, 2003)

iwantapiranha said:


> a whole new filter?! or a new bio-bag cartridge?
> [snapback]859964[/snapback]​


new filter, judazz just said everything needed so...filters

www.bigalsonline.com

I would get an AC300 or AC500 if you can fit it.


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

theres nothing i can do to modify my filter? didnt someone do something to improve whispers?


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

iwantapiranha said:


> theres nothing i can do to modify my filter? didnt someone do something to improve whispers?
> [snapback]860547[/snapback]​


"Upgrading" a filter that's inadequate is fighting the symptoms, not the problem itself.
Your filter is already under-dimensioned for the amount of fish you have - imagine the situation in 3 or 4 months, when your piranha's have grown 2 or 3 inches, and eat (and crap!) twice as much.
Your filter already has an extremely hard time dealing with the bioload (otherwise you wouldn't have had detectable ammonia in the first place), and tweaking it may buy you a few more weeks, but sooner rather than later the ammonia levels will rise to dangerous levels.
And keep this in mind: the effects of ammonia aren't necessarily visible on the outside - internal damage or damage to the gills can occur too, and once you notice that, you're already too late...

It's up to you now: you really have to buy a new filter or you will probably let your fish die slowly. If you don't have the money, do your fish a favor and sell them to someone who can meet the requirements.
I know it sounds harsh, but I'm not trying to be an ass: if the well-being of your fish comes first, you'll have to act now - one way or the other...


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

Judazzz said:


> "Upgrading" a filter that's inadequate is fighting the symptoms, not the problem itself.
> Your filter is already under-dimensioned for the amount of fish you have - imagine the situation in 3 or 4 months, when your piranha's have grown 2 or 3 inches, and eat (and crap!) twice as much.
> Your filter already has an extremely hard time dealing with the bioload (otherwise you wouldn't have had detectable ammonia in the first place), and tweaking it may buy you a few more weeks, but sooner rather than later the ammonia levels will rise to dangerous levels.
> And keep this in mind: the effects of ammonia aren't necessarily visible on the outside - internal damage or damage to the gills can occur too, and once you notice that, you're already too late...
> ...


i understand. this was my first incident thou. i want to see if its just the fact that i needed to change my filter cartridge. if it occurs again i will get an extra 10 gallon filter or something. would that do


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## Mack (Oct 31, 2004)

Don't change the filter catridge.


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## TripDs (Oct 11, 2004)

Alright people, I have hopefully solved my ammonia woes.
I got an extra Whisper 40 Power Filter.
So on my tank I now have both a Whisper 30 (with ammo-chips; but I don't think they do anything) and a Whisper 40, so that makes it a Whisper 70







lol.

Thanks for all the help. Even though it seemed like I wasn't listening, I did in the long run. TY.

P.S., I also added "cycle," which "rapidly matures new aquarium."

Thanks everyone.

Oh yeah, do you think my Ps have been severly damaged by the ammonia already? I hope not


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## killerbee (Aug 18, 2004)

hey man, i know you already cleaned your gravel but do it again. Also check to see that there is no food or waste left somewhere in your filter, powerhead (if you have one), ect..

I once found one of my cichlids inside the filter intake and that m**********r was 3".....i don't know how he fuckin' got in there but he did. he was stuck inside where the impellar was, all mangled. glad i noticed he was missing right away and i started to search for him.









hope u get everything resolved


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