# how to tell them apart



## RHOM

is there a way of telling to cariba apart like which is male and which is female ,
i have 4 right know and when they become old enough i would like to try and breed them but i'm not sure if i have 4 males or 4 female so is there a way to tell each fish apart


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## mdemers883

From what I've heard I don't think you can tell the difference just by looking at them. I'll let someone more educated on the matter elaborate further, I don't want to give out false info. Jesus, you think you got a big enough signature









Mark


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## hastatus

> is there a way of telling to cariba apart like which is male and which is female


 The scenario would play out the same for any _Pygocentrus_ in determining sexual dimorphism, only with actual pre-spawning and laying of eggs will you know for certain which is male and which is female.


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## RHOM

yea but so then what should i do let them mature and try to get them to breed then see which is which


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## hastatus

> let them mature and try to get them to breed then see which is which


Yes


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## SnowCichlid.

yeah unfortunatly they tend to be sexual dimorphism and are not as easy to sex as other species of fish, 
nice cavalier by the way, but I do not like more than one exaust pip on a 4-banger, but still looks good


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## Sir Nathan XXI

hastatus said:


> is there a way of telling to cariba apart like which is male and which is female
> 
> 
> 
> The scenario would play out the same for any _Pygocentrus_ in determining sexual dimorphism, only with actual pre-spawning and laying of eggs will you know for certain which is male and which is female.
Click to expand...

key word is certain, indeed you cannot be certain without seeing them breed or cutting them open. However you can make rather good guesses once you have become experienced with breeding pygos


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## hastatus

> However you can make rather good guesses


Doesn't make it so does it.


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## Sir Nathan XXI

hastatus said:


> However you can make rather good guesses
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't make it so does it.
Click to expand...

 I am leaving out my opinion of it so I dont have to deal with nay sayers


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## hastatus

> I am leaving out my opinion of it so I dont have to deal with nay sayers


. I'm a bit confused on this last remark. Are you actually saying your opinion is fact each time you state an opinion, therefore you will not state opinion for fear it will be picked apart for being an opinion?

No one, not even me Nate, denies you have an opinion on many things. In fact, your opinion is invaluable to me as a teaching tool for educating the public and new hobbyists. Never think that I am short changing your thinking as anything less than educational and worth replying to when used as a guidance tool to manifest accurate pirana information.


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## Sir Nathan XXI

Never did I say anything about fact, I said I will leave my own opinion on ability to sex visually.

How am I a teaching tool?


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## Xenon

Nate, clear this up for me: What is your experience breeding pygos?

From what I have been told, there is no sure fire way to sex the fish. Your observations are simply conjecture and can not be passed off as scientific fact. If you have extensive experience breeding pygos and you have come up with a way to sex the fish, why dont you write up a paper on the subject and allow it to be mulled over with scientific scrutiny? Then you can make all the claims you like....


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## hastatus

> I said I will leave my own opinion on ability to sex visually.


Then you are saying your opinion IS FACT, because you are stating you have an ability to sex visually, but you offer no proof other than unsubstantiated claims. I think you are having trouble distinguishing what is real and what is unreal in processing the reality of scientific analysis of sexual dimorphism of species. As I have stated on more than one occasion, if you have a set of piranas and you look at them day in and day out _anyone will see differences_ in their fish. But the proof is when they breed and produce spawn. Just because one is thicker or thinner or larger or smaller does not make it sexually dimorphic because proof of age has not been produced and these fish all develop differently, though they may be the same age.



> How am I a teaching tool?


You are seeing an example of it now.


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## Sir Nathan XXI

Xenon said:


> Nate, clear this up for me: What is your experience breeding pygos?
> 
> From what I have been told, there is no sure fire way to sex the fish. Your observations are simply conjecture and can not be passed off as scientific fact. If you have extensive experience breeding pygos and you have come up with a way to sex the fish, why dont you write up a paper on the subject and allow it to be mulled over with scientific scrutiny? Then you can make all the claims you like....


I bred Natts 2 times. Was no big deal though, 1st time about half died, then what was left was used as feeders, lfs didnt need very many and had no room, 2nd time, sold a decent portion to lfs and friends, then rest were feeders again. Been a few years since I havent kept reds much since, I recently was gonna make another go at it but my female died so I sold the male and gave up on Natts

Never did I say anything about fact fellas re-read my posts here, I am not gonna go into this further, I have been there done that, just because there is not absolute 100% way to do it doesnt mean skilled individuals cannot make rather accurate guess with high frequency though, I am in close contact with many major red breeders still and they all agree its not that hard once you have witnessed the whole shpeal and then know what to look for in males and females, Frank even says so on his site. I am far too busy to write a GD science paper, and if I had the time I would spend it doing something profitable

Mike while you are in town we should go to an lfs and I can show you, if the have adults in that arent overfed, that or if BCollins will oblige when can go to his house, I know he has a male and a female, I sold him the male and saw the female he bought. I can show you, once you see what to look for your guess become much easier

I am tired of people putting words in my mouth though, really

I NEVER SAID ANYTHING OTHER THAN MY OWN OPINION!

If you want to scrutinize, Frank even agrees whether he knows it or not Click and look 3/4 ways down


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## hastatus

> If you want to scrutinize, Frank cant even spell Piranha


 The spelling you are using is English, my usage is traditional Spanish with out the tilde over the n. I thought someone with your college education and experience on pirana would know the correct incountry spelling? I use this spelling for my own preference, not yours.



> Never did I say anything about fact


 You are saying you have an _ability_, that alone points that you are able to tell the sexes, and I'm asking you to produce the proof. The idea that you have no time, etc., etc., etc. indicates to anyone reading you are not able to substantiate your words.



> I know he has a male and a female, I sold him the male and saw the female he bought.


. That proves nothing if these fish indeed spawned in the aquario, it simply substantiates what I wrote and has nothing to do with your opinion.



> I NEVER SAID ANYTHING OTHER THAN MY OWN OPINION!


 And now we know that whatever surfaces from your posts at Piranha Fury is nothing more than unmitigated opinion without substance. Just personal observations. That is far more realistic than anything else you have offered.


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## Sir Nathan XXI

I really think you make to big of a deal outta the whole thing Frank, yes I know a bit of spanish as well, I am just giving your own nit picking of every single word written

what do you have to say about the link to your own site I provided, and know I have never seen either of those fish spawn so, it is by my own opinion

I have said this before, if you guys want real proof send me about 20 mature natts, I will keep them for 2 weeks and feed very sparingly, then on camera pull them out one at a time and "sex" them then with a knife cut them open and prove to all whether it can be done or not. I bet you would be shocked with the accuracy Frank, I doubt anybody is willing to up the anty, I really dont have a place for that many Natts either, but it can be done.

As for opinion, I take everyones here postings as opinion and you all should as well, in this day and age NOTHING is certain


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## hastatus

> yes I know a bit of spanish as well


 Doesn't compare to having grown up speaking and writing Spanish as I have, Nate. But I will give you the _nice recovery_ after your slip. For your information, I also translate Portuguese, French and German. I was used quite extensively in the military as a translator and had the "L" code in my MOS. For those in the military or once were, they know what "L" code means for that speciality.

As for nit-picking? Nonsense, I'm simpy pointing out to you that in your quest to be a specialist in piranas takes more than just looking at a fish tank. It takes serious study and examining specimens, both live and dead. You are only 21 years of age, yet you have 12 years of experience in fishes. I don't know if that means 12 years keeping guppies or 12 years keeping piranas? Nonetheless, it still indicates to me that your study of these fish is very limited based on your actual knowledge.

I find that when you offer your opinion as something more, then its time for a serious look not only by me but other members as well. You have a nice web site, full of frill and excitement, but the substance itself is something that you really should reconsider if you are ever to be seriously considered for accurate information. A web site full of nothing but opinion will only open you to scutiny by anyone involved in studying piranas either professionally or at the amateur level you are at. And at your web site you offer nothing that indicates it is all opinion. Lastly, it would benefit you (as I have done and others as well), if you would credit people for the information you gather. When I visited your web site, I see no references, no credits other than a few pictures from other people. As I stated to you before, the uninitiated would think you are some kind of scientist without a disclaimer somewhere on your site.


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## Sir Nathan XXI

pretty much all that info is mine, and there is quite a bit of prooven fact on my site, I want you to keep in mind the intent of my site is the opposite of yours, it is for keeping piranhas in the home aquarium, I care little of what piranhas do in the wild since you insisit that it is nothing like in an aquarium. I make no illusions on my site, never do I claim to be an expert. I personally prefer to have my site my own info and opinions; as opposed to cluttered with bits and pieces of everybody else's work and papers, hell anybody with alot of free time can do that

Never did I try to say I knew more Spanish than you man, you grew up in a latin culture, I know some German as well.

My definition of a scientist most be very different than yours Frank, I dont see either of us as one. If you choose to attempt to glorify somebody in our hobby a better choice of words would be Aquatic Biologist or something of that nature. Scientist is rather broad in vague and in that case yes I am a scientist, I am a mechanical / materials scientist in the manner that you are a piranha scientist


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## hastatus

> pretty much all that info is mine, and there is quite a bit of prooven fact on my site


 Then please prove these quotes from your web site with cited references:

1) True Piranhas; All four are considered to be dangerous to man. 4 species you have listed are; P. piraya, nattereri, cariba, and ternetzi. Please provide your proof on this ranking.

2) They are characterized by their jaw. Meaning what?

3) Ref: P. nattereri; This is the easiest to breed of all piranha species. says who?

4) This fish contrary to belief is quite shy. This species reaches a size of about 12 inches and reaches maturity at about 6 inches. How do you come up with these sizes and maturity statements? I see nothing so far from items 1-4 this is all opinions or not based on your idea of science, science recognizes P. nattereri attaining 14 U.S. SL inches. Are you saying your measurements are accurate? based on what? Your statements about maturity is also questionable as we have already discussed that here at pfury and it is obvious you are wrong in your opinion.

5) With maturity gold reflective scales appear giving highlights to the dark flank of the fish. Please explain this remark and incorporate how this pertains to other P. nattereri from other localities.

6) This fish is the one that president T. Roosevelt saw on his expeditions. He wrote in his journal of the Cariba and that is how piranhas got their reputation.

Bunk, the fish he saw was P. nattereri, well documented. The piranas got the reputation by newspaper people who accompanied Roosevelt and they were duped by Brazilians who staged the event.

7) Piraya is the largest of piranhas. It has been known to reach lengths over 24 inches in the wild. This species is the most colorful of piranhas.

Nonsense, P. piraya is the largest of the 3 species of true pirana. It has not been known to reach over 24 inches in the wild. That is still supposition. As for the most colorful of the piranas, that is opinion. The rest of what you wrote on the other 2 species covered is mostly pirana aquarium lore.

8) Ternetzi is found in the far south of South America as far as Argentina. Ternetzi's Max size is of question, but it is believed to be around 18 inches.

That is pure bunk as is now well known. Yet, I find it amusing you still include this fish as a separate distinct species when the fish doesn't even exist.

I could easily quote much more from your web site and dissect it for accuracy including your recommendations on what species you think hobbyists should keep. That in itself is incredible and extremely embellished with information.



> I am a mechanincal / materials scientist in the manner that you are a piranha scientist


 You should then pay more attention to my experience and those who actually _know piranas_ than your own home grown opinions on these matters. It really is beyond your abilities and knowledge since you are limited to mechanical/materials engineering. BTW, I'm going to point out you mis-spelled your own field of expertise.


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## Sir Nathan XXI

hastatus said:


> pretty much all that info is mine, and there is quite a bit of prooven fact on my site
> 
> 
> 
> Then please prove these quotes from your web site with cited references:
> 
> 1) True Piranhas; All four are considered to be dangerous to man. 4 species you have listed are; P. piraya, nattereri, cariba, and ternetzi. Please provide your proof on this ranking.
> 
> 2) They are characterized by their jaw. Meaning what?
> 
> 3) Ref: P. nattereri; This is the easiest to breed of all piranha species. says who?
> 
> 4) This fish contrary to belief is quite shy. This species reaches a size of about 12 inches and reaches maturity at about 6 inches. How do you come up with these sizes and maturity statements? I see nothing so far from items 1-4 this is all opinions or not based on your idea of science, science recognizes P. nattereri attaining 14 U.S. SL inches. Are you saying your measurements are accurate? based on what? Your statements about maturity is also questionable as we have already discussed that here at pfury and it is obvious you are wrong in your opinion.
> 
> 5) With maturity gold reflective scales appear giving highlights to the dark flank of the fish. Please explain this remark and incorporate how this pertains to other P. nattereri from other localities.
> 
> 6) This fish is the one that president T. Roosevelt saw on his expeditions. He wrote in his journal of the Cariba and that is how piranhas got their reputation.
> 
> Bunk, the fish he saw was P. nattereri, well documented. The piranas got the reputation by newspaper people who accompanied Roosevelt and they were duped by Brazilians who staged the event.
> 
> 7) Piraya is the largest of piranhas. It has been known to reach lengths over 24 inches in the wild. This species is the most colorful of piranhas.
> 
> Nonsense, P. piraya is the largest of the 3 species of true pirana. It has not been known to reach over 24 inches in the wild. That is still supposition. As for the most colorful of the piranas, that is opinion. The rest of what you wrote on the other 2 species covered is mostly pirana aquarium lore.
> 
> 8) Ternetzi is found in the far south of South America as far as Argentina. Ternetzi's Max size is of question, but it is believed to be around 18 inches.
> 
> That is pure bunk as is now well known. Yet, I find it amusing you still include this fish as a separate distinct species when the fish doesn't even exist.
> 
> I could easily quote much more from your web site and dissect it for accuracy including your recommendations on what species you think hobbyists should keep. That in itself is incredible and extremely embellished with information.
Click to expand...

OK well if we must lets measure up

1) The 4 listed are all of Pygocentrus which have a larger and much greater size jaw enabling them to inflict a greater injury on their victims as well as the fact that they live in shoals so you not only get bit by one but many

2) Expand?

3)They are the most bred of piranhas in captivity, so it must be easier

4) 14" Natt I would like to see proof of that, a picture with a ruler is proof not some paper saying its so. As far as maturity 6" is a fair estimation, I had a female begin producing eggs at that size, and many piranhas are that size at 2 years of age which you claim as the age for maturity, you are contradicting yourself now

5) Its nothing more than a statement, it doesnt differintiate them from anything









6)I am rather sure I saw video of it and they were Cariba in the video

7)This is true its the largest piranha, the others are just Pirambeba or somethign according to you yet another self contradiction by you

8) Perhaps you should read the pygo page under Ternetzi, I cleary state that science hasnt prooven its a seperate species and that in my opinion I am not sure it is either. And on that note prove to me that it is not a different fish, as Jason told you just because they have the same holotype doesnt make them the same

My recommendations are purely and obviously my own opinion and who are you to say how accurate they are? Can you prove they arent mister "piranha scientist"
















what else do have for me? I love trivia.


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## DrewBoOty

I *will only* say _one_ thing about this thread.

I was told this a very long time ago..

"assumption is the mother of all fuckups"

this is very true, everytime i assume; it blows back in my face... so I follow this by a strict line in noting it will always happen.

I take no sides, i do not join this "thread" and i hope nobody takes my statement(s) the wrong way.

actually, just to clarify that was mainly for Jason bolin's pervious "speculations" and assumptions (if you will call them that). Feel free to inform him, for i do not care.. he is a pompous, cockhead.

(since he was brought up)


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## Sir Nathan XXI

DrewBoOty said:


> "assumption is the mother of all fuckups"


 love that quote, one of my favorites


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## hastatus

> 1) The 4 listed are all of Pygocentrus


 Says who? You? How is it that a 21 year old engineering student is suddenly a systematician in ichthyology and states categorically there are 4 listed in Pygocentrus? Has Dr. William L. Fink even looked at your proof? Or is it again your opinion based on Jasononmics?

2) Expand? Is this so-called jaw size limited to Pygocentrus? or do all piranas have the same jaw size. If so please provide your data on field studies to support it, or is it from looking at your dried curio-store specimens?

3)They are the most bred of piranhas in captivity, so it must be easier
Actually Nate, S. spilopleura is and has always been the most bred in captivity. P. nattereri captive breeding did not take place until several years after spilopleura. Didn't you know this?

4) 14" Natt I would like to see proof of that, a picture with a ruler is proof not some paper saying its so. As far as maturity 6" is a fair estimation, I had a female begin producing eggs at that size, and many piranhas are that size at 2 years of age which you claim as the age for maturity, you are contradicting yourself now.

And I would like to incorporate this with your S. ternetzi remarks and see your proof that S. ternetzi is a valid species and grows over 18 inches or whatever size you claim it to be. You see Nate, you are again falling into the same S. niger is a true species trap by promoting ternetzi and the sad thing is you are knowingly doing it and not like some ignorant kid that just picked up a piranha book. In your case it is deliberate and pathetic because you are in college and should know better than ignore what has already been disposed of. As for maturity, it is again your statements with no proof. The information about sexual maturity is posting at OPEFE for you to read, but like you said more than once, you are not into science, just baloney. BTW, I'm still waiting to see this ternetzi against a ruler myself. When will you provide it? Or we simply to take your word for it?

5) Its nothing more than a statement, it doesnt differintiate them from anything. Then it is clear that you do not know what P. nattereri from other localities look like and your statement is again based on nothing.

6)I am rather sure I saw video of it and they were Cariba in the video

They didn't have video in Roosevelt's time, only photos, they were also described if you had ever read "Into the Brazilian Wilderness." You see even the name doesn't say "Into the Venezuelan or Orinoco Wilderness". Your video of cariba is intermixed from National Geographic attempts to show what Roosevelt was looking at in terms of piranas eating.

7)This is true its the largest piranha, the others are just Pirambeba or somethign according to you yet another self contradiction by you.

No self-contradiction, I said TRUE Pirana, you are stating piranas in general. You need to read not assume.

8) Perhaps you should read the pygo page under Ternetzi, I cleary state that science hasnt prooven its a seperate species and that in my opinion I am not sure it is either. And on that note prove to me that it is not a different fish, as Jason told you just because they have the same holotype doesnt make them the same.

Jason is also a fool and has no knowledge on pirana systemics much less any clue on how species are determined especially historical names. I have read your statements about ternetzi and science has proven that it does not exist, but like most people that refuse to accept information that is based on fact, you are in the same league as Jason, simply tossing around statements without fact, merit or substantiation.

You want handed information and when it is not your liking, you want science to prove it to you, yet you offer nothing but words and no proof to back up your own opinions. Why? because you have nothing to offer to prove your statements with. Just words. This is all I get from you then and now. I don't see you any differently than how I saw Jason when I attempted to educate him and he took the mule way than I see you in trying to enlighten you about your shortcomings in pirana knowledge. As I said to you before, it is very sad and even sadder when younger kids come on here and read the nonsense posts you make while leading them down a path just bordering on stupidity.


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## Sir Nathan XXI

According to science Terns are Natts so yes those were 4 pygos listed, Piraya, Cariba and Natts twice









Not talking length on breeding but quantity, more people have bred Natts than Spilos

When will you provide proof of a 14" Natt, I can provide proof of a 15" Yellow Natt aka Ternetzi,

Let me say it again since you missed it, LOOK ON MY PYGO PAGE AND READ THE FIRST SEVERAL LINES UNDER TERNETZI

5) it is merely a statement that Natts have gold reflective scales, duhhhh

As far as stupidity you have no clue of mine brain power, and I will leave it at that.

Whats your proof that Ternetzi are Natts, the holotype shows they are the same, perhaps you can explicitly define what a holotype is Frank

Your retentive responses are amusing at most, you are off in your own, I have a crown on my head world, because I copy and paste everybody else's work, yeah me


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## Neoplasia

Quote by Sir Nathan XXI in previous topic:


> I will admit when I am wrong


This is like the world's most bloody annoying broken record. Someone please kill me.


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## Bcollins111900

Well yeah just give me a notice ans surely u can come over and see the pygo shoal. I know 100% sure i have a female cause I saw her full of eggs at the LFS before I bought her, looked like she swallowed a freaking golf ball, so u know. Got 5 nice pygos all nice sized. Willing to show anyone who wants to look also got a piranha cam as well IM me on yahoo messenger at bcollins111900 and i will show ya the shoal, if i am online that is if not leave a message and i will get back to you as soon as possible....BEEP. :smile:


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## Bcollins111900

oh great forgot to say also, lets not get into these huge sexing fights, it pissed alot of people off when it happened at pfish, it is an opion maybe and educated guess leave it at that and lets all go own, dont re light dwindled flames as it is not worth it.


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## Neoplasia

Hey BC, just curious about something. Has she laid eggs? Because if she hasn't how do you know it's not some sort of parasite or illness and instead? Just playing Devil's Advocate here.

People are going to bring the topic up, and every time it's going to be met with controversy. At least until something factual is produced that is satisfactory, which nothing remotely close has so far been produced.


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## Sir Nathan XXI

Neo, yes it is a seasoned female breeder from a large lfs display


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## Xenon

Lets go to the LFS, where is it?


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## hastatus

> When will you provide proof of a 14" Natt, I can provide proof of a 15" Yellow Natt aka Ternetzi


 Then we have the same species and your usage of S. ternetzi is erroneous, suggest you repair your misinformation least you cause more young people to fall suspect to bad information.



> Whats your proof that Ternetzi are Natts, the holotype shows they are the same, perhaps you can explicitly define what a holotype is Frank


Go read the post made (same area you were banned from) shows you what a holotype is. Something it appears you are having trouble understanding or more explicity comprehending. You do know what that means eh?



> I have a crown on my head world,


 Actually, you are pretty close to where your throne is and your head is at. Or in paratrooper talk, your 4th point of contact.


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## Sir Nathan XXI

Xenon said:


> Lets go to the LFS, where is it?


 They sold the large Natts off, the tank is a large open top display, you really need to go there Mike its awesome, its Aquarium Adventure on 161 and Sawmill Rd.

I added them into your store locator

Frank what if this particular fish is not a Nattereri


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## hastatus

> Frank what if this particular fish is not a Nattereri


What are you writing you about now?


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## Sir Nathan XXI

Lets say for the sake of argument that if indeed Ternetzi are Natts then we can divide them into 2 populations Northern and Argentina populations. Then the Argentina stock aka Ternetzi may be able to attain larger sizes due to certain unknown variables. So yes this is a Ternetzi ( Yellow Natt) but I want to see your proof of a Red Natt of 14" TL

By the way I used the search and found nothing on holotype description. With me its not a matter of comprehension, just whether I read it all or not.


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## Xenon

Isnt this discussed in another thread?


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## Sir Nathan XXI

I am merely asking for proof of a 14" Nattereri Red belly form, I know there are 15"+ Ternetzi aka Yellow Natts, I have seen one in person, that what I mean

then he told me to look at his holotype discription and I did a search and didnt find it


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## hastatus

> Lets say for the sake of argument that if indeed Ternetzi are Natts then we can divide them into 2 populations Northern and Argentina populations. Then the Argentina stock aka Ternetzi may be able to attain larger sizes due to certain unknown variables. So yes this is a Ternetzi ( Yellow Natt) but I want to see your proof of a Red Natt of 14" TL


 After all of this, you are still arguing over a non-existent holotype? Sorry Nate, but I learned along time ago, if you argue with a donkey that sooner or later those around you will think you are a donkey too. You can divide up all you want to your hearts content. P. nattereri grow to at least 35 cm SL. That is the recognized growth for this species. Your _ternetzi_ since it does not exist cannot be measured and for the sake of argument, you have no argument or proof for its existence, unless of course you or Jason Bolin has one hiding in their closet of the Steindachner S. ternetzi. BTW, it is Steindachner you are getting this name from isn't it? If not, then who?

Let's see you put your science information out here Nate and quit playing little games, who is your source for the name _ternetzi_.


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## Sir Nathan XXI

I agreed it was a Natt if you would read my last post, I want your proof of a 14" Natt, a ruler with it. You really need to read and understand what I write before you make your responses.

And as I recall you said it was fine to call Yellow Natts Ternetzi a week ago, now whats your problem

I said where do you describe exactly what a holotype is, I want to verify before I make a comment about it.


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## hastatus

> but it is believed to be around 18 inches. Ternetzi is very similar to Nattereri in appearance and could possibly be the same species, at this point science has yet to prove that it is a separate species. Ternetzi grow extremely think and grow much larger than the red bellies.


These are your words, and you subjugate the paragraph with _at this point science has yet to prove that it is a separate species.Ternetzi grow extremely think and grow much larger than the red bellies._



> I want your proof of a 14" Natt, a ruler with it.


So prove your statements as you have them written, I will notify Michel Jegu and Bill Fink that you think their measurements are wrong according to Super Nate Piranhas. I'm sure they will scratch their heads and ask who?



> You really need to read and understand what I write before you make your responses.


 I read your responses and to be honest, I doubt any person with a reasonable mind can understand it. So I leave you with this, you have not proven anything other than you are talking from your ass, and that is the best scientific evidence shown in discussing this topic with you. As for Piranha Science Forum I operate, you will remain banned from there. I hope Xenon has been following this thread because it clearly shows why piranha forums like this that want scientific input fail because of the narcissistic attitude and lack of comprehension by some members who use opinions without merit and arguments without substances. Even your personal attack on my spelling of pirana shows how little you know and how quickly you try to cover up your lack of knowledge. If I was not done with you before, I am now.


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## Xenon

I have been following this thread, and all the entertainment that goes with it. Too bad this is not supposed to be an entertaining thread. It is supposed to be educational, enlightening, and engaging. Too bad it wasnt, because it had great potential. It seems that was your last chance for the science category Nate. Anyone that reads this thread will get the impression that talking and having an open discussion with you is like banging a head against a brick wall until it pops like a ripe watermelon.

We have had conversations on this before where I thought we had agreed on the proper methods of debate and discussion on this board. It seems that you have not heeded the warnings and pleads presented to you. Frank is considered an admin of the piranha science section of this board (well the whole thing but he doenst want that responsibility







) I have given him this postion because of his obvious _proven_ credentials in the field. Trying so hard to unsuccessfully discredit him does nothing for you except hurt your reputation, credibility, and status on this board. I dont have a problem with you man and I am in no way being influenced by others (past grudges) in my statements. I am calling it like I always do....how I see it.

PM me if you have any further questions. This topic is closed.


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