# Biological filtration. advice needed



## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

im looking into setting up a SW tank to hatch and raise a shark. either a coral catshark or a banded bamboo

anyway i was thinking of making it entirely run on biological filtration. 
so id be using just LR, mangroves and LS. 
could i get away with not using LS and just go with LR and mangroves? as id like to get very fine sand so not to irritate the sharks underside.
just wanted to see what you guys thought of it and if any of you have any advice in regard to setting it up and keeping params stable. 
also would the cycle period be any different?
also i reckon a powerhead would be good to create some flow in the tank.

thanks


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## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Trigger lover said:


> im looking into setting up a SW tank to hatch and raise a shark. either a coral catshark or a banded bamboo
> 
> anyway i was thinking of making it entirely run on biological filtration.
> so id be using just LR, mangroves and LS.
> ...


First off.. unless you have a LARGE pond or tank (or are going to be setting one up) i would throw this out the window. Catsharks, bamboo sharks, or any other shark for that matter need an aquarium larger than you can probability afford... Most species of shark will grow 2' per year when young so, you do the math. And as for using only bio filtration, not possible or practical.



> If you want to keep aquarium sharks you will need a large tank that is at least 3 times the length of the shark when it is fully grow and the width of the aquarium must be at least 2 times the length of the fish. This means that a 150 cm long shark will need an aquarium that is at least 450 cm long and 300 cm in width.
> 
> The tank should be shallow and offer as much surface area as possible. A round or hexagonal aquarium is to be preferred as corners might prevent the shark from swimming freely. Decorate the tank to create as much open space as possible for swimming however a few hiding places that they can hide under is appreciated. Make sure the shark can not get stuck in the hiding places.
> 
> ...


So, if you had a shark that was 2' long (bamboo sharks can get up to 5 feet, and catsharks WAY bigger) you would need a tank ATLEAST 6' long, and 4' deep (front to back, not height). Or more like 10' long, and 6' deep... and if it was full grown, you will need a 15' long, 10' deep tank...

Now lets get into filtration on a tank that size... (a 10'x 6'x 24" tall tank is 598 gals) So you are going to be talking a couple grand for an adequate skimmer. You are going to need a HUGE sump to store your rock for filtration, as well as equipment to control salinity (ATO) and other params as sharks are sensitive to changes. You are going to need atleast 1200 lbs of sand to cover the bottom, and personally in a tank that size i would have atleast 2 lbs of rock per gallon, most of which would be in the sump. You could use a RDSB (remote deep sand bed) instead of sand in the display, but thats just more room behind the tank.

Then we get onto the feeding part... any idea how much a shark eats, and what it costs to feed it? And then think what a shark is capable of crapping and how fast a giant shark deuce would mess up your water (unless you were running MASSIVE filtration and skimmer)

Basically if you have a spare 10K to set this up it would work... but theres no way you are going to find a tank, or filter it properly with a smaller budget and only with rock and sand as waste removal.

Here, read this link 1700 gal shark tank


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

lol thanks for all the info on keeping sharks. i knew all that already. but i understand your concern

ive kept a shark and a ray before. we used to have a pond in our old house.

and yes i was planning on building another pond in the garage. i already have set up the ground work for it. just have a slight finacial problem and the moment. but it should get going in another month or so.

the biological tank is only a temp tank for hatching the shark and getting it to feed. then i will move it to my 100g. and the by the time it outgrows that i should have the pond up and running









all i wanted to knowis if the hatching tank would be viable to run on biological filtrtion only? ive seen something like it on RC and the guy seems to be having it all under onrol and looks real good. wanted to do something similar. 
your thoughts?

appreciate the advie and help


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

ok scrap the shark idea. i did some maths and i wont be able to setup the pond untill another year or so due to other finacial commitments. so i have to get the shark egg at a later date

but id still like to persue the biological filtration only tank.


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## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Even if you hatch the shark in your 100 gal tank, its going to out grow that in 6 months... If you can have your pond up and running, cycled, and a skimmer ready to go at that point then go for it!

The one thing i see here, still, is that you are going to need a skimmer that will break the bank to make it work long term... Even if you get an above ground pool and use that, the money involved isnt a small amount to get it running and provide a proper home for the shark long term.

Not to mention the cost of heating, pumps, lights, food and monthly expenses like that. Just to give you an idea, my 155 gal tank uses about 120$ in power monthly (mostly lighting but, still...) and the inital cost to set up my tank was upwards of 5k (mostly used equipment, and tons of DIY) but if i added up what everything is brand new thats 8-10k (not including labor or any livestock) and we still arent touching the size of a project you are talking about... 2-3k for a simmer isnt out of the question

I would rather have a "smaller" (300 gal hahaha) reef, than a single shark tank for the same money...



Trigger lover said:


> ok scrap the shark idea. i did some maths and i wont be able to setup the pond untill another year or so due to other finacial commitments. so i have to get the shark egg at a later date
> 
> but id still like to persue the biological filtration only tank.


Biological filtration can work on fish only tanks... but when you get into coral warfare and removing toxins, you will need some sort of mechanical filtration (carbon)

Running a reactor of carbon isnt really that big of a deal, and it helps immensely with water clarity... why not use it? Im not saying a tank cant run with a DSB, live rock, refuge (cheato and mangroves) and a sump. Hell, i only have a quart of carbon, and a quart of GFO for mechanical on my tank... Thats not significant, and i could remove it if i wanted with little adverse effects


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

Skunkbudfour20 said:


> ok scrap the shark idea. i did some maths and i wont be able to setup the pond untill another year or so due to other finacial commitments. so i have to get the shark egg at a later date
> 
> but id still like to persue the biological filtration only tank.


Biological filtration can work on fish only tanks... but when you get into coral warfare and removing toxins, you will need some sort of mechanical filtration (carbon)

Running a reactor of carbon isnt really that big of a deal, and it helps immensely with water clarity... why not use it? Im not saying a tank cant run with a DSB, live rock, refuge (cheato and mangroves) and a sump. Hell, i only have a quart of carbon, and a quart of GFO for mechanical on my tank... Thats not significant, and i could remove it if i wanted with little adverse effects
[/quote]

lol it really depends on the individual person. id be more happy to spend several thousand pounds on a proper nice big shark tank than a similar priced reef tank. its down to personnal prefrence. 
dont get me wrong i love a beautifuly setup reef tank. but i have a huge fetish for big predators. plus im big on my scuba diving and theres nothing more amazing than coming face to face with the oceans giants.
where as some prefer the tiny creatures on a reef system

ok im gonna go for the biological filtration and see how it goes. i will take your advice and have some carbon running on the system. but im gonna try to run it all biologically. i wont add in any fish untill im confident that my params are constantly stable

oh an i wont have any corals in the tank. just LR, mangroves and the like.


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## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Trigger lover said:


> ok scrap the shark idea. i did some maths and i wont be able to setup the pond untill another year or so due to other finacial commitments. so i have to get the shark egg at a later date
> 
> but id still like to persue the biological filtration only tank.


Biological filtration can work on fish only tanks... but when you get into coral warfare and removing toxins, you will need some sort of mechanical filtration (carbon)

Running a reactor of carbon isnt really that big of a deal, and it helps immensely with water clarity... why not use it? Im not saying a tank cant run with a DSB, live rock, refuge (cheato and mangroves) and a sump. Hell, i only have a quart of carbon, and a quart of GFO for mechanical on my tank... Thats not significant, and i could remove it if i wanted with little adverse effects
[/quote]

lol it really depends on the individual person. id be more happy to spend several thousand pounds on a proper nice big shark tank than a similar priced reef tank. its down to personnal prefrence. 
dont get me wrong i love a beautifuly setup reef tank. but i have a huge fetish for big predators. plus im big on my scuba diving and theres nothing more amazing than coming face to face with the oceans giants.
where as some prefer the tiny creatures on a reef system

ok i*m gonna go for the biological filtration and see how it goes*. i will take your advice and have some carbon running on the system. but im gonna try to run it all biologically. i wont add in any fish untill im confident that my params are constantly stable

oh an i wont have any corals in the tank. just LR, mangroves and the like.
[/quote]

Like i said earlier, all SW tanks are mainly biological filtered (minus a skimmer) Rock, sand, mangroves, cheato, pods, snails, crabs DSB, fuge, etc etc are all forms of bio. The only real mechanical filtration is carbon, GFO, or zeo vit reactors in higher end tanks.

The number one rule is export. All of those things are breaking down waste and exporting it... a skimmer is the number one way to remove organic waste that isnt (or cant yet be) eaten or removed by other things, because it removes it before it can break down and soil your water. It is possible to leave the fish poop (no skimmer) and have it decompose and become viable food for other things, but like i said export is the number one rule... you cant give anything a chance to settle and rot (sponges, filter floss, pads etc all trap waste) so you should be running a skimmer to stop any organic compounds from building up. If you arent skimming then i would imagine your test kit results would be far from ideal. And we arent talking about 20 gal tanks here, i know tons of people have smaller tanks with no skimmer and nothing but rocks and a powerhead...

I like to replicate nature (because it obviously works) and i see the waves crashing being like a natural skimmer (ever notice the foam on a beach?!), obviously the DSB for de-nitrification, a TAS (turf algae scrubber) to replicate tidal algae zones that grow in air sometimes, water the other. And a refugium is like a tidal pool, or mangrove jungle near the edge of the ocean. So really a combination of all of these would be ideal.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

skunk i love how your such a fountain of knowledge. love talking to you about such things

anyway. i totally understand what your saying in regards to export.

but i do think that you can run a tank without any skimmer or filtration if you have enough biological filtration going on. and of course rigorous water changes each week.

and to illustrate my point heres a link to RC. a member who has setup a tank run just on bilogical filtration. he hasnt really explained much on how he is maintaining it. unless of course he just letting the tank mature at its own pace. tell me what you think about it and if this can be replicated.
link

oh and by the way im planning to do this on a 30g tank


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## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Trigger lover said:


> *skunk i love how your such a fountain of knowledge. love talking to you about such things *
> 
> anyway. i totally understand what your saying in regards to export.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much man, really means tons!

I have seen that tank once before, and really the only difference i see is the fact all his macro algae and mangroves are in the display instead of a "remote" area like a refugium.... Its like he wanted to combine all these different things into one. Once all that stuff grows in, it will really distract from the real reason the tank is there because it will just be a jungle of plants. I wouldnt hesitate to place all of that in a hidden tank where it will be achieving the same thing, but is out of site... You can have a garbage can remote deep sand bed (easier to replace and clean than in your tank!) and your mangroves/ cheato in a HOB fugium if you wanted... where they could use the lighting from the display but not clutter up the tank. I am not denying that you CAN run a tank with out a skimmer, but thats like saying "i CAN take a dump, and not wipe"... it might work, and you might end up with monkey-butt and a raw ass... its really a toss up, but if you can, you might as well... or atleast have one on hand in case things go bad (i like to have a back up for a back up plan)

We are in the process of designing a new house to build, so i am planning another "hole in the wall project" only a slightly larger scale if i can swing it. The idea is a 450+ gal display peninsula tank (viewable on 3 sides) with 4 18" solar tubes and supplemental actinic and MH lighting for shorter or cloudy days(i live in the northern US so...). I would also have an equipment/grow out room near the tank with another 2 solar tubes (refugium/ manglar (mangrove) "jungle" and frags)... i dont want to distract from your project so i will stop there







but the idea of the new system is almost 0 operating cost (not having 1080W of lights helps!) and a more fail-safe system than i have now...


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

hmm yes i see what you mean. thinking about it now its just be easier and better to setup a bigger tank connected to a sump/refug instead. be a better use of my time and money

what ill do instead, is take my 30g and make it into a refug for my 100g. expand the system on that badboy.

in that case i have another question. marine grass? how would i go about having that in my tank? do i need LS for it to grow and flourish? have any experence or knowledge in that department

its also what i wanted to do in the shark pond. a bit like the shallow grassy areas u find in the carrebbian. but i need to do a bit more research for that.

your new hole in the wall sounds like a mega great project, look forward to seeing its progress.
you gonna concentrate on soft or hard corals. or a mixture of both?


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## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Trigger lover said:


> hmm yes i see what you mean. thinking about it now its just be easier and better to setup a bigger tank connected to a sump/refug instead. be a better use of my time and money
> 
> what ill do instead, is take my 30g and make it into a refug for my 100g. expand the system on that badboy.
> 
> ...


You could also watch for a used tank locally (as big as you can fit in your stand), and just make a sump/ refugium all in one swoop. its easy to install baffles and section it off, and the added water would help stabilize the system. That and having a hide-away for skimmer, heater, top off and things like that is always nice.

Look on ebay for an overflow box, you can find them used for dirt cheap... and then all you need is a return pump and some plumbing parts.









As for the new project.... i am not sure about corals... right now i am about 3 pieces of equipment (controller, Ca reactor, Kalkwasser stirrer) short of being able to keep almost any SPS/LPS i want. Because i am out of town so much, i have never really invested in a frag collection... dont trust other people to dose 2 part and keep up with whats going on unless its totally automated and i can watch it online, from the other side of the globe. Really i only have 1 hard coral in my tank (scripps green tip stag) as a tester to see how things go for the month i am away. Other than that its all softies (mushrooms, zoas, torch coral etc) because i know they will thrive regardless of whats going on, and through temperature fluctuations (a chiller would be nice)

I will see what i can find about grasses... other than shaving brush and some others i dont really know a SW aquatic grass


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

alright man. thanks for all the info









ill do some research on the marine grass aswell. see what i can come up with. i think it be a nice addition to my 100g especially as i got nice clean white sand. would look real lush if i could add some marine grass.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

was googling marine grass and i came across a fantastic article by RC on the subject. 
ill have to read through it carefully. but ill definetly gonna try and grow some in my tank. it be a great addition.
anyway for those who care or are interested here the link CLICK


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