# CERN LHC



## [email protected]° (Jun 16, 2004)

MEYRIN, Switzerland (June 29) - The most powerful atom-smasher ever built could make some bizarre discoveries, such as invisible matter or extra dimensions in space, after it is switched on in August.

But some critics fear the Large Hadron Collider could exceed physicists' wildest conjectures: Will it spawn a black hole that could swallow Earth? Or spit out particles that could turn the planet into a hot dead clump?

Ridiculous, say scientists at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, known by its French initials CERN - some of whom have been working for a generation on the $5.8 billion collider, or LHC.

"Obviously, the world will not end when the LHC switches on," said project leader Lyn Evans.

David Francis, a physicist on the collider's huge ATLAS particle detector, smiled when asked whether he worried about black holes and hypothetical killer particles known as strangelets.

"If I thought that this was going to happen, I would be well away from here," he said.

The collider basically consists of a ring of supercooled magnets 17 miles in circumference attached to huge barrel-shaped detectors. The ring, which straddles the French and Swiss border, is buried 330 feet underground.

The machine, which has been called the largest scientific experiment in history, isn't expected to begin test runs until August, and ramping up to full power could take months. But once it is working, it is expected to produce some startling findings.

Scientists plan to hunt for signs of the invisible "dark matter" and "dark energy" that make up more than 96 percent of the universe, and hope to glimpse the elusive Higgs boson, a so-far undiscovered particle thought to give matter its mass.

The collider could find evidence of extra dimensions, a boon for superstring theory, which holds that quarks, the particles that make up atoms, are infinitesimal vibrating strings.

The theory could resolve many of physics' unanswered questions, but requires about 10 dimensions - far more than the three spatial dimensions our senses experience.

The safety of the collider, which will generate energies seven times higher than its most powerful rival, at Fermilab near Chicago, has been debated for years. The physicist Martin Rees has estimated the chance of an accelerator producing a global catastrophe at one in 50 million - long odds, to be sure, but about the same as winning some lotteries.

By contrast, a CERN team this month issued a report concluding that there is "no conceivable danger" of a cataclysmic event. The report essentially confirmed the findings of a 2003 CERN safety report, and a panel of five prominent scientists not affiliated with CERN, including one Nobel laureate, endorsed its conclusions.

Critics of the LHC filed a lawsuit in a Hawaiian court in March seeking to block its startup, alleging that there was "a significant risk that ... operation of the Collider may have unintended consequences which could ultimately result in the destruction of our planet."

One of the plaintiffs, Walter L. Wagner, a physicist and lawyer, said Wednesday CERN's safety report, released June 20, "has several major flaws," and his views on the risks of using the particle accelerator had not changed.

On Tuesday, U.S. Justice Department lawyers representing the Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation filed a motion to dismiss the case.

The two agencies have contributed $531 million to building the collider, and the NSF has agreed to pay $87 million of its annual operating costs. Hundreds of American scientists will participate in the research.

The lawyers called the plaintiffs' allegations "extraordinarily speculative," and said "there is no basis for any conceivable threat" from black holes or other objects the LHC might produce. A hearing on the motion is expected in late July or August.

In rebutting doomsday scenarios, CERN scientists point out that cosmic rays have been bombarding the earth, and triggering collisions similar to those planned for the collider, since the solar system formed 4.5 billion years ago.

And so far, Earth has survived.

"The LHC is only going to reproduce what nature does every second, what it has been doing for billions of years," said John Ellis, a British theoretical physicist at CERN.

Critics like Wagner have said the collisions caused by accelerators could be more hazardous than those of cosmic rays.

Both may produce micro black holes, subatomic versions of cosmic black holes - collapsed stars whose gravity fields are so powerful that they can suck in planets and other stars.

But micro black holes produced by cosmic ray collisions would likely be traveling so fast they would pass harmlessly through the earth.

Micro black holes produced by a collider, the skeptics theorize, would move more slowly and might be trapped inside the earth's gravitational field - and eventually threaten the planet.

Ellis said doomsayers assume that the collider will create micro black holes in the first place, which he called unlikely. And even if they appeared, he said, they would instantly evaporate, as predicted by the British physicist Stephen Hawking.

As for strangelets, CERN scientists point out that they have never been proven to exist. They said that even if these particles formed inside the Collider they would quickly break down.

When the LHC is finally at full power, two beams of protons will race around the huge ring 11,000 times a second in opposite directions. They will travel in two tubes about the width of fire hoses, speeding through a vacuum that is colder and emptier than outer space.

Their trajectory will be curved by supercooled magnets - to guide the beams around the rings and prevent the packets of protons from cutting through the surrounding magnets like a blowtorch.

The paths of these beams will cross, and a few of the protons in them will collide, at a series of cylindrical detectors along the ring. The two largest detectors are essentially huge digital cameras, each weighing thousands of tons, capable of taking millions of snapshots a second.

Each year the detectors will generate 15 petabytes of data, the equivalent of a stack of CDs 12 miles tall. The data will require a high speed global network of computers for analysis.

Wagner and others filed a lawsuit to halt operation of the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, or RHIC, at the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York state in 1999. The courts dismissed the suit.

The leafy campus of CERN, a short drive from the shores of Lake Geneva, hardly seems like ground zero for doomsday. And locals don't seem overly concerned. Thousands attended an open house here this spring.

"There is a huge army of scientists who know what they are talking about and are sleeping quite soundly as far as concerns the LHC," said project leader Evans.

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

Very interesting stuff they are doing...

I cant wait to see what results this creates... The possibilities are amazing!!

http://cdsweb.cern.ch/journal/article?name...icles&ln=en


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

this is sooo cool!


----------



## Gaijin987 (Nov 14, 2006)

Agreed.

Very cool.......I find stuff like this fascinating


----------



## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

I think I saw something about this on discovery or one of those channels.

It seems pretty intense.


----------



## r1dermon (Mar 9, 2005)

a show was on the other day basically about what the universe is made up of. (dark matter). this accelerator was featured as a possible breakthrough when it finally opens. good to see an article on it! nice post!


----------



## blacklabel (Feb 12, 2007)




----------



## mori0174 (Mar 31, 2004)

We're all going to die.


----------



## [email protected]° (Jun 16, 2004)

BlackLabel said:


>


haha...

Where did you dig this up from??


----------



## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

Ah, well, even if we all die, our knowledge will increase beforehand.


----------



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

mori0174 said:


> We're all going to die.


well thats been a fact of life since life began.

anyone ever see the movie EVENT HORIZON?

...prepare yourselves


----------



## mori0174 (Mar 31, 2004)

Ocellatus2000 said:


> We're all going to die.


well thats been a fact of life since life began.

anyone ever see the movie EVENT HORIZON?

...prepare yourselves
[/quote]

That was my reasoning for the post. The man who filed the suit says we might die. I'm saying we all are going to die.


----------



## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

We all will eventually.

As long as its not long and painful. Its all good.

Im happy with what I have and where Im at right now.


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

i read about this in bill brysons book witch he gave out in 2003. ive been waithing since!


----------



## WhiteLineRacer (Jul 13, 2004)

I thought they were going to flick to switch last month some time? I'm still here so either it all worked and have been very quiet about the results or, they bottled it









Check out the vid it's a scary bit of kit.

Ooh, this vid states that we have a few months till they do it........


----------



## [email protected]° (Jun 16, 2004)

WhiteLineRacer said:


> I thought they were going to flick to switch last month some time? I'm still here so either it all worked and have been very quiet about the results or, they bottled it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They say in August they will have the thing up to full power....


----------



## Lowporkwa (Mar 24, 2007)

Im on the edge of my chair as well, my lab played a minor role in its conception. Very minor but we helped !


----------



## maddyfish (Sep 16, 2006)

notaverage said:


> As long as its not long and painful.


Chances are your death will be both long and painful. That's just the way it is.


----------



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

notaverage said:


> We all will eventually.
> 
> As long as its not long and painful. Its all good.
> 
> Im happy with what I have and where Im at right now.


pretty sure id like to live past this august


----------



## razorback182 (Apr 27, 2008)

there was a mini-movie produced by discovery channel i think. geez, that's a lot of money for dark matter and strangelets. I hope they find a new energy source from all that though.


----------



## [email protected]° (Jun 16, 2004)

razorback182 said:


> there was a mini-movie produced by discovery channel i think. geez, that's a lot of money for dark matter and strangelets. I hope they find a new energy source from all that though.


Thats exactly why we need to fund research like that...

Not only energy possibilities, but learning more about the workings of the universe and physics opens up all kinds of possibilities.


----------



## WhiteLineRacer (Jul 13, 2004)

Bake at 98.6° said:


> They say in August they will have the thing up to full power....


Oh goodie


----------



## [email protected]° (Jun 16, 2004)

WhiteLineRacer said:


> They say in August they will have the thing up to full power....


Oh goodie








[/quote]

Well, if it all goes wrong...

You will go before me... your closer....


----------



## WhiteLineRacer (Jul 13, 2004)

True but then at least I hope it's quicker. I'll post up what the big ball of plazma looks like from here.


----------



## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Ocellatus2000 said:


> We all will eventually.
> 
> As long as its not long and painful. Its all good.
> 
> Im happy with what I have and where Im at right now.


pretty sure id like to live past this august
[/quote]

I agree. Just a stupid statement....I have to live for quite a while being the wife is pregnant!

Now what if this doesnt work?

How the Hell could you make up for the $$$ lost?


----------



## WhiteLineRacer (Jul 13, 2004)

It's not the $$$ you want to worry about


----------



## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Revival...supposed to start within 24 hours isnt it?


----------



## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

sh*t if stephen hawking says it's okay..i'm fine


----------



## ICEE (Feb 3, 2007)

whats with all the paranoid people


----------



## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

ICEE said:


> whats with all the paranoid people


People are scared cause its Y2K all over again, remember what happened all that chaos.


----------



## WhiteLineRacer (Jul 13, 2004)

Hang on... Oh hell.. I see something glowing in the south east. OMG!!!!!!


----------



## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

WhiteLineRacer said:


> Hang on... Oh hell.. I see something glowing in the south east. OMG!!!!!!


I think thats your TV in the other room.


----------



## primetime3wise (Sep 28, 2003)

uh, i'm all for science, but if there is even a very low risk of something going horribly wrong, i'm not so sure we should turn this thing on.

on another note, says will be 3:30am Wed EDT, so i'll be asleep, lol, if i wake up in another dimension.


----------



## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

CERN has a better chance located in Europe of being a haven from Brooklyn...... The end of the world.


----------



## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

Its funny, a lot of people are afraid of fiction lol.
Strangelets do not have any evidence at all to prove their existance, they are a 100% hypothetical.


----------



## G23.40SW (Sep 30, 2005)

ICEE said:


> whats with all the paranoid people


People are f*cking retarded.


----------



## bobme (Feb 17, 2003)

if they hit the on botton and we all die, does it matter? i meen really? no one would know.


----------



## gvrayman (May 12, 2006)

bobme said:


> if they hit the on botton and we all die, does it *matter*? i meen really? no one would know.


it dark matters


----------



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

its not that people are scared for no reason, its the fact of the unknown. physics can be a scary thing, especially when we're trying to create new matter and the theories of unstable masses/reactions. point is, we dont know. the probability is literally one in several hundred thousand of some unknown happening, but for a science experiment its almost not worth it. 
i like more passive scientific experiments myself. a telescope or radio dish.

since man could create tool we have been evolving them more and more. from the rock to the nuclear bomb...and now we have created the largest mallet of all. its always a little scary when tampering with something so ambitious


----------



## [email protected]° (Jun 16, 2004)

Ocellatus2000 said:


> its not that people are scared for no reason, its the fact of the unknown. physics can be a scary thing, especially when we're trying to create new matter and the theories of unstable masses/reactions. *point is, we dont know. the probability is literally one in several hundred thousand of some unknown happening, but for a science experiment its almost not worth it.
> i like more passive scientific experiments myself. a telescope or radio dish.
> 
> since man could create tool we have been evolving them more and more. from the rock to the nuclear bomb...and now we have created the largest mallet of all. its always a little scary when tampering with something so ambitious*


These experiments are important to our understanding of matter and energy. Things we learn from the LHC can go on to become things like renewable clean energy, a TRUE understanding of how the universe works and maybe unthinkable prospects such as time travel and knowledge of how space and time work.

I am all for the LHC and marvel at what we may learn from it.


----------



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

bake, me too. i think im weary because ive been feeding into the skeptical stories lately. i am absolutely fascinated with science and feel it explains all we need to know. im always for projects like this. however i have fallen victim to typical mass propaganda.


----------



## [email protected]° (Jun 16, 2004)

I look at it this way...

IF something bad does happen it will all be over fast!!

I'd prefer to live out the rest of my life with my wife and family, but if we all go, we all go...

POOF!!! GONE!!


----------



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

actually i firmly believe if we're speaking of a black hole it would take many many years. it would be a slow process starting from the atomic level. once it starts it would be impossible to stop.


----------



## watermonst3rs (Feb 15, 2004)

My brain can't even comprehend that youtube vid on this machine. How can some understand the mathematics and equations involved in something like this.. that in itself is awesome to me.

wow after i wrote this post at the end of the vid "the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that its comprehensible" Albert Einstein. So strange..


----------



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)




----------



## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

My due respect to Richard Feynman on my last entry in this thread. The New York Aquarium is also a credit but Astroland is closing down.


----------



## watermonst3rs (Feb 15, 2004)

Who is the smartest man alive now? Is there anyone like Einstien? That guy in that wheelchair Stephen Hawkings


----------



## WorldBelow07 (Dec 16, 2004)




----------



## [email protected]° (Jun 16, 2004)

watermonst3rs said:


> Who is the smartest man alive now? Is there anyone like Einstien? That guy in that wheelchair Stephen Hawkings


As far as physicists go I believe Hawkings is considered the top guy, and ESPCIALLY on the topic of Black Holes which was/is his what he has studied and made major break thru's on...

The pics need to GO!!!

Seriously...

This thread is about science, not funny pics, thats the other thread...

P-fury really needs a NSFW section, imagine the possibilities in the funny pic thread...


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

the doomsday people seem to forget (or not know) that the universe itself does these experiment all the time over, 100 000 times since the earth was created. so no worries.

i have tons of respect to the people that accomplish these things and push the human species into new eras. this is the most important thing we can do right now ( IMO )


----------



## [email protected]° (Jun 16, 2004)

C0Rey said:


> the doomsday people seem to forget (or not know) that the universe itself does these experiment all the time over, 100 000 times since the earth was created. so no worries.
> 
> *i have tons of respect to the people that accomplish these things and push the human species into new eras. this is the most important thing we can do right now ( IMO )*


For sure!!

There has to be more for us than arguing over who's invisible man in the sky is better, or who should rule the roost...


----------



## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

Bake at 98.6° said:


> its not that people are scared for no reason, its the fact of the unknown. physics can be a scary thing, especially when we're trying to create new matter and the theories of unstable masses/reactions. *point is, we dont know. the probability is literally one in several hundred thousand of some unknown happening, but for a science experiment its almost not worth it.
> i like more passive scientific experiments myself. a telescope or radio dish.
> 
> since man could create tool we have been evolving them more and more. from the rock to the nuclear bomb...and now we have created the largest mallet of all. its always a little scary when tampering with something so ambitious*


These experiments are important to our understanding of matter and energy. Things we learn from the LHC can go on to become things like renewable clean energy, a TRUE understanding of how the universe works and maybe unthinkable prospects such as time travel and knowledge of how space and time work.

I am all for the LHC and marvel at what we may learn from it.
[/quote]

I'm just waiting for John Titor to come back from the future in the LHC.


----------



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

C0Rey said:


> *
> the doomsday people seem to forget (or not know) that the universe itself does these experiment all the time over, 100 000 times since the earth was created. so no worries. *
> 
> i have tons of respect to the people that accomplish these things and push the human species into new eras. this is the most important thing we can do right now ( IMO )


im lost. i think i know what youre referring to but enlighten me. whats been done 100,000 times similar to what the LHC will do?


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

the universe does it, how im not shure, im not a specialsist so i cant describe it. but the people who can clearly states that this goes on naturally all the time. out there somewhere.


----------



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

well in that logic, nuclear fusion, black holes, and quite a bit more goes on naturally in the universe. doesnt necessairly mean because it happened on its own 34 million light years away that its okay to happen under a farm field north of italy


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

Ocellatus2000 said:


> well in that logic, nuclear fusion, black holes, and quite a bit more goes on naturally in the universe. doesnt necessairly mean because it happened on its own 34 million light years away that its okay to happen under a farm field north of italy


well seing how people that grasp the consequences of these happenings deem them safe i dont see why ignorant douches should be spreading fear.


----------



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

i agree. i dont like the spreading of fear.

i watched a show awhile ago on the history channel about the mannhatten project and a sizable percentage of the scientists working on the nuclear bomb were'nt 100% sure if it would follow their assumed physics. many believed no matter what yield the bomb was, it might chain react and literally swallow the earth.

one scientist said at the detination of the first bomb he shut his eyes and said a prayer. so really, these experts are still limited by experiences. text books can take it so far. theres still a little tiny bit of it thats in gods hands i guess you could say


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

scratch the god thing and were on the same level.


----------



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

well you know what i mean. im have nothing to do with god lol. i meant that luck to a degree (however minimal) plays a minor part in stuff like this.


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

indeed. i watched a good program on this and what the guy said was that the most interesting thing would be, was if they didnt find what they were looking for ( like the higgs field ) cause that would mean the total theory ( wich they are stribing for now ) would be all fucked up and that we really dont understand anything.


----------



## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

i know! lol
thats what going to be nuts is a lot of theorized stuff will be put to the test with this machine. things we assume that have been a core factor in many of our understanding of physics and thus the universe will be proven or disproven. 
itll be interesting to see what really comes of this. what i wonder is what wont be released to the public


----------



## Avatar~God (Oct 21, 2004)

So what exactly are they trying to accomplish with this(in english)??? Ive read a couple things but im not exactly sure on the reasons behind it?


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

create the conditions found a very short time after the universe was created.


----------



## watermonst3rs (Feb 15, 2004)

What is that on Google homepage today? Is that this machine?? When is this experiment happening?


----------



## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

they have started moving particles in the tubes and so far its working. it wont be 100% for some while


----------



## ICEE (Feb 3, 2007)

i saw that on google as well


----------



## watermonst3rs (Feb 15, 2004)

Yea gorrillamask had a link to the vid of it starting up but said the vid was so boring they changed the link to the badass pictures of the machine.


----------



## Doktordet (Sep 22, 2006)

the physicists at CERN have been watching too much Spiderman 2.


----------



## Puff (Feb 14, 2005)

i just started my engineering degree and we've got a pretty heavy physics and chemistry workload. quite interesting heard different doctor's POVs on this issue.

my chem teacher thinks it's cool, but that 10billion could have been spent on a huge variety of other science spectrums and produce who knows what.

my physics lab teacher thinks its awesome, but laughs at these conspiracy theorists that say that a black hole with envelop the earth and kill us all.


----------



## watermonst3rs (Feb 15, 2004)

Well when they created the A-bomb they said splitting an atom could result in a chain reaction and vaporize the entire planet.


----------

