# Abortion?



## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

When is a human considered 'human'? 
Do we have the right to terminate life for no reason?
Is Bush setting things up for a conservative supreme court to overturn roe vs wade?








Id love to hear some of your thoughts on the subject? Is this a moral issue? "womens rights"?


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2005)




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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

VERY conservative court to take away more rights...


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

Overturning of Roe v. Wade would mean a whole bunch of folks in blue states would make a whole lot of money by setting up abortion clinics on the border of red states. All a woman in a red state would have to do is get in her car and "head for the border"


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## rbp75 (May 2, 2004)

I think my sigs speak for me.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

Jewelz said:


> Overturning of Roe v. Wade would mean a whole bunch of folks in blue states would make a whole lot of money by setting up abortion clinics on the border of red states. All a woman in a red state would have to do is get in her car and "head for the border"


yes im aware it woudl revert to states rights. Im trying to start an argument... errr... debate


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## syrus410 (Jun 9, 2005)

Ex0dus said:


> Overturning of Roe v. Wade would mean a whole bunch of folks in blue states would make a whole lot of money by setting up abortion clinics on the border of red states. All a woman in a red state would have to do is get in her car and "head for the border"


yes im aware it woudl revert to states rights. Im trying to start an argument... errr... debate








[/quote]
f*ck you.......................................j/k :nod: 
you wanted and argument


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## andrew.burd (Oct 17, 2005)

Ex0dus said:


> Overturning of Roe v. Wade would mean a whole bunch of folks in blue states would make a whole lot of money by setting up abortion clinics on the border of red states. All a woman in a red state would have to do is get in her car and "head for the border"


yes im aware it woudl revert to states rights. Im trying to start an argument... errr... debate








[/quote]

All I'm gonna say is that my unborn son or daughter was ruthlessly murdered by my ex-wife because she felt that having a child would stifle her career plans. You can probably imagine I'm not pro-abortion.

I am pro-choice however.. despite what happened.. I just don't think it's right to use abortion as a form of birth control.

In June of my 20th year (birthday is in October) I approached the doorman at a bar in Ann Arbor.. I asked him simply if he was pro-choice or pro-life. He said he was pro-life. ..so naturally I said "cool.. so I can come in and drink?" he checked my ID and said no.

"But dude.. you just said you're pro-life... if you really believe that, then you should know I turned 21 in February... if life begins at conception you're already 9 months old when you come out"

he didn't like me very much..

by the way... I don't think you're "Human" until that cord is snipped.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

there is no pro choice ....

its pro life or pro death.


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## bowserfins (Apr 14, 2005)

andrew.burd said:


> Overturning of Roe v. Wade would mean a whole bunch of folks in blue states would make a whole lot of money by setting up abortion clinics on the border of red states. All a woman in a red state would have to do is get in her car and "head for the border"


yes im aware it woudl revert to states rights. Im trying to start an argument... errr... debate








[/quote]

All I'm gonna say is that my unborn son or daughter was ruthlessly murdered by my ex-wife because she felt that having a child would stifle her career plans. You can probably imagine I'm not pro-abortion.

I am pro-choice however.. despite what happened.. I just don't think it's right to use abortion as a form of birth control.

In June of my 20th year (birthday is in October) I approached the doorman at a bar in Ann Arbor.. I asked him simply if he was pro-choice or pro-life. He said he was pro-life. ..so naturally I said "cool.. so I can come in and drink?" he checked my ID and said no.

"But dude.. you just said you're pro-life... if you really believe that, then you should know I turned 21 in February... if life begins at conception you're already 9 months old when you come out"

he didn't like me very much..

by the way... I don't think you're "Human" until that cord is snipped.
[/quote]

WTF... if you are pro-choice then how do you feel your ex ruthlessly murdered your unborn child??
Her choice, not yours...


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## andrew.burd (Oct 17, 2005)

Ex0dus said:


> there is no pro choice ....
> 
> its pro life or pro death.


that's so silly it's ridiculous.

Pro-Life = a woman gets pregnant and has to have the baby.. no abortions allowed.

Pro-Choice = a woman gets pregnant and has the right to get an abortion if she wants.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

ps - im playing a lil bit of devils advocate here.

i will express my views on the mater a lil further in the thread.


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## rbp75 (May 2, 2004)

andrew.burd said:


> Overturning of Roe v. Wade would mean a whole bunch of folks in blue states would make a whole lot of money by setting up abortion clinics on the border of red states. All a woman in a red state would have to do is get in her car and "head for the border"


yes im aware it woudl revert to states rights. Im trying to start an argument... errr... debate








[/quote]

All I'm gonna say is that my unborn son or daughter was ruthlessly murdered by my ex-wife because she felt that having a child would stifle her career plans. You can probably imagine I'm not pro-abortion.

I am pro-choice however.. despite what happened.. I just don't think it's right to use abortion as a form of birth control.

In June of my 20th year (birthday is in October) I approached the doorman at a bar in Ann Arbor.. I asked him simply if he was pro-choice or pro-life. He said he was pro-life. ..so naturally I said "cool.. so I can come in and drink?" he checked my ID and said no.

"But dude.. you just said you're pro-life... if you really believe that, then you should know I turned 21 in February... if life begins at conception you're already 9 months old when you come out"

he didn't like me very much..

by the way... I don't think you're "Human" until that cord is snipped.
[/quote]

So what happens when they shove a needle into a womans womb and accidently sever the cord right before vacuming the childs brains out. would that be murder then?


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

LOL

it's either white or black huh? no grey area for you conservative guys...


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> LOL
> 
> it's either white or black huh? no grey area for you conservative guys...


same is said for democrats. there is no longer a middle ground









the left MUST disagree with everything the right does

the right MUST disagree with everything the left does.

welcome to american politics.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

i was referring to the post by Ex0dus.

Pro choice is the best option, because you can decide for yourself whether to abort or not. I believe in freedom of religion... so I would hate it if someone was to push their beliefs onto me. So I like the idea of having freedom


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> i was referring to the post by Ex0dus.
> 
> Pro choice is the best option, because you can decide for yourself whether to abort or not. I believe in freedom of religion... so I would hate it if someone was to push their beliefs onto me. So I like the idea of having freedom


I am ex0dus









What if the religious zealots were out of the picture. Lets talk about this on the issue of morality then. Do you, as a human, believe its ok to take another humans life w/o cause?


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

it's not a life.... yet...

it cannot live on its own...


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## rbp75 (May 2, 2004)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> it's not a life.... yet...
> 
> it cannot live on its own...


A 2 year old can not live on its own, does that not make it a life?


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

dood, a little microscopic sperm IS NOT A BABY...

do you seriously believe that?



rbp75 said:


> it's not a life.... yet...
> 
> it cannot live on its own...


A 2 year old can not live on its own, does that not make it a life?
[/quote]

I mean self sufficient... as in, it doesnt have to be attached to another life to live... now it may need to be fed...etc... but it can function on its own


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## rbp75 (May 2, 2004)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> dood, a little microscopic sperm IS NOT A BABY...
> 
> do you seriously believe that?


A micoscopic sperm????????? What the hell does that have to do with abortion? Sperm doesnt have 2 legs, 2 arms, 10 fingers and toes, a beating heart and a brain. Your mistaking contraception for abortion.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> it's not a life.... yet...
> 
> it cannot live on its own...


A 2 year old can not live on its own, does that not make it a life?
[/quote]

I mean self sufficient... as in, it doesnt have to be attached to another life to live... now it may need to be fed...etc... but it can function on its own
[/quote]

Sperm? no biggie...

the arguement here is when an egg and sperm are joined to form a human baby...


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

so you are telling me that an egg with a sperm in it is a baby?

or is it a baby after it is born? Fetus is more the proper term...

Also, I believe that because of this "pro-life" rubbish, we have the most single mothers in the US since EVER.... quite sad for the childern that suffer so..


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## rbp75 (May 2, 2004)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> it's not a life.... yet...
> 
> it cannot live on its own...


A 2 year old can not live on its own, does that not make it a life?
[/quote]

I mean self sufficient... as in, it doesnt have to be attached to another life to live... now it may need to be fed...etc... but it can function on its own
[/quote]

And 3 of my 6 nieces and nephews were born prematurely and needed those whatever the hell there called enclosures to keep them alive and breath for them, does that mean that they were not human until they were able to breath on their own? Whats the difference if its a machine or a mother keeping the baby alive if their conception date is the same?


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

rbp75 said:


> dood, a little microscopic sperm IS NOT A BABY...
> 
> do you seriously believe that?


A micoscopic sperm????????? What the hell does that have to do with abortion? Sperm doesnt have 2 legs, 2 arms, 10 fingers and toes, a beating heart and a brain. Your mistaking contraception for abortion.
[/quote]
he's not the brightest one.









yeah, because THIS is a GREAT topic for pfury!!


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## andrew.burd (Oct 17, 2005)

bowserfins said:


> Overturning of Roe v. Wade would mean a whole bunch of folks in blue states would make a whole lot of money by setting up abortion clinics on the border of red states. All a woman in a red state would have to do is get in her car and "head for the border"


yes im aware it woudl revert to states rights. Im trying to start an argument... errr... debate








[/quote]

All I'm gonna say is that my unborn son or daughter was ruthlessly murdered by my ex-wife because she felt that having a child would stifle her career plans. You can probably imagine I'm not pro-abortion.

I am pro-choice however.. despite what happened.. I just don't think it's right to use abortion as a form of birth control.

In June of my 20th year (birthday is in October) I approached the doorman at a bar in Ann Arbor.. I asked him simply if he was pro-choice or pro-life. He said he was pro-life. ..so naturally I said "cool.. so I can come in and drink?" he checked my ID and said no.

"But dude.. you just said you're pro-life... if you really believe that, then you should know I turned 21 in February... if life begins at conception you're already 9 months old when you come out"

he didn't like me very much..

by the way... I don't think you're "Human" until that cord is snipped.
[/quote]

WTF... if you are pro-choice then how do you feel your ex ruthlessly murdered your unborn child??
Her choice, not yours...
[/quote]

yeah.. you're right. it was her choice.. doesn't mean I have to like it. It's not like I freaked out and beat her up over it or took her to court. It's how I felt at the time and sometimes still do.. I found out she was pregnant.. and was preparing myself to be a dad.. and then the next thing I know.. I'm not gonna be a dad anymore. It was an emotional gauntlet... obviously something you haven't gone through and can't understand.

Considering that she's my EX-wife now... MY choice by the way... 7 years later...

Does everything have to be black and white? Because I personally felt betrayed by her choice doesn't mean that I have the right to say that ALL WOMEN ANYWHERE CAN'T HAVE ANY ABORTIONS EVER.. that's bullshit.. WAY to extreme..


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

well WHEN do you consider it a baby?


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> so you are telling me that an egg with a sperm in it is a baby?
> 
> or is it a baby after it is born? Fetus is more the proper term...
> 
> Also, I believe that because of this "pro-life" rubbish, we have the most single mothers in the US since EVER.... quite sad for the childern that suffer so..


ROFL!









We have more single mothers now because society is IMMORAL. We, as a society have no family values. Kids think its cool to f*ck anything in sight and they have no morals to do what is right. Simple as that. 
Whats quite sad is all the babies aorted and the amount of married couples having to go to foreign countries to adopt when they should be able to adopt from america. Why are women so intent on murder?? Why not give the child up for adoption. Might help them sleep better at night. I know I coudlnt live with myself if i just killed my son or daughter BY CHOICE!


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## andrew.burd (Oct 17, 2005)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> so you are telling me that an egg with a sperm in it is a baby?
> 
> or is it a baby after it is born? Fetus is more the proper term...
> 
> Also, I believe that because of this "pro-life" rubbish, we have the most single mothers in the US since EVER.... quite sad for the childern that suffer so..


actually dude.. we have more single mothers in the US because people can't control themselves and be smart. Keep your pants on if you can't handle the results...


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> well WHEN do you consider it a baby?


fertilization.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

rbp75 said:


> well WHEN do you consider it a baby?


fertilization.
[/quote]

WHOA...

see I consider it a cell...


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## andrew.burd (Oct 17, 2005)

rbp75 said:


> Overturning of Roe v. Wade would mean a whole bunch of folks in blue states would make a whole lot of money by setting up abortion clinics on the border of red states. All a woman in a red state would have to do is get in her car and "head for the border"


yes im aware it woudl revert to states rights. Im trying to start an argument... errr... debate








[/quote]

All I'm gonna say is that my unborn son or daughter was ruthlessly murdered by my ex-wife because she felt that having a child would stifle her career plans. You can probably imagine I'm not pro-abortion.

I am pro-choice however.. despite what happened.. I just don't think it's right to use abortion as a form of birth control.

In June of my 20th year (birthday is in October) I approached the doorman at a bar in Ann Arbor.. I asked him simply if he was pro-choice or pro-life. He said he was pro-life. ..so naturally I said "cool.. so I can come in and drink?" he checked my ID and said no.

"But dude.. you just said you're pro-life... if you really believe that, then you should know I turned 21 in February... if life begins at conception you're already 9 months old when you come out"

he didn't like me very much..

by the way... I don't think you're "Human" until that cord is snipped.
[/quote]

So what happens when they shove a needle into a womans womb and accidently sever the cord right before vacuming the childs brains out. would that be murder then?
[/quote]

dude.. go out in your yard with a needle and try to sever the garden hose.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

thats just where we differ then.

A dog is always a dog... no matter what

Same for a human. A human is always a human, noithing else, nothing less.



andrew.burd said:


> Overturning of Roe v. Wade would mean a whole bunch of folks in blue states would make a whole lot of money by setting up abortion clinics on the border of red states. All a woman in a red state would have to do is get in her car and "head for the border"


yes im aware it woudl revert to states rights. Im trying to start an argument... errr... debate








[/quote]

All I'm gonna say is that my unborn son or daughter was ruthlessly murdered by my ex-wife because she felt that having a child would stifle her career plans. You can probably imagine I'm not pro-abortion.

I am pro-choice however.. despite what happened.. I just don't think it's right to use abortion as a form of birth control.

In June of my 20th year (birthday is in October) I approached the doorman at a bar in Ann Arbor.. I asked him simply if he was pro-choice or pro-life. He said he was pro-life. ..so naturally I said "cool.. so I can come in and drink?" he checked my ID and said no.

"But dude.. you just said you're pro-life... if you really believe that, then you should know I turned 21 in February... if life begins at conception you're already 9 months old when you come out"

he didn't like me very much..

by the way... I don't think you're "Human" until that cord is snipped.
[/quote]

So what happens when they shove a needle into a womans womb and accidently sever the cord right before vacuming the childs brains out. would that be murder then?
[/quote]

dude.. go out in your yard with a needle and try to sever the garden hose.
[/quote]

the cord is made up of blood vessels... If you sever a main one, the child will die. No need to completly sever the cord.


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## andrew.burd (Oct 17, 2005)

Ex0dus said:


> Overturning of Roe v. Wade would mean a whole bunch of folks in blue states would make a whole lot of money by setting up abortion clinics on the border of red states. All a woman in a red state would have to do is get in her car and "head for the border"


yes im aware it woudl revert to states rights. Im trying to start an argument... errr... debate








[/quote]

All I'm gonna say is that my unborn son or daughter was ruthlessly murdered by my ex-wife because she felt that having a child would stifle her career plans. You can probably imagine I'm not pro-abortion.

I am pro-choice however.. despite what happened.. I just don't think it's right to use abortion as a form of birth control.

In June of my 20th year (birthday is in October) I approached the doorman at a bar in Ann Arbor.. I asked him simply if he was pro-choice or pro-life. He said he was pro-life. ..so naturally I said "cool.. so I can come in and drink?" he checked my ID and said no.

"But dude.. you just said you're pro-life... if you really believe that, then you should know I turned 21 in February... if life begins at conception you're already 9 months old when you come out"

he didn't like me very much..

by the way... I don't think you're "Human" until that cord is snipped.
[/quote]

So what happens when they shove a needle into a womans womb and accidently sever the cord right before vacuming the childs brains out. would that be murder then?
[/quote]

dude.. go out in your yard with a needle and try to sever the garden hose.
[/quote]

the cord is made up of blood vessels... If you sever a main one, the child will die. No need to completly sever the cord.
[/quote]

OMFG dude you don't know what you're talking about.. a friend of mine's wife had a child and he was there to cut the cord.. he told me it took him at least a minute to cut through it.. and he had to try really hard to do it with those surgical scissors. it's not some flimsy stuff there.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

odd... it took me one snip to cut through the cord. Less than a few seconds total.


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## andrew.burd (Oct 17, 2005)

bleh.. this is just another derailed topic. I'm pro-choice.. but I felt destroyed when I found out my ex-wife aborted our child.. it was horrible on many levels..

but honestly now that we're divorced I can't help feeling a semi-guilty sense of relief that we didn't have the child.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

andrew.burd said:


> bleh.. this is just another derailed topic. I'm pro-choice.. but I felt destroyed when I found out my ex-wife aborted our child.. it was horrible on many levels..
> 
> but honestly now that we're divorced I can't help feeling a semi-guilty sense of relief that we didn't have the child.


the child would have been better off dead than LIVING with divorced parents? Hmmm, interesting logic.


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## andrew.burd (Oct 17, 2005)

Ex0dus said:


> bleh.. this is just another derailed topic. I'm pro-choice.. but I felt destroyed when I found out my ex-wife aborted our child.. it was horrible on many levels..
> 
> but honestly now that we're divorced I can't help feeling a semi-guilty sense of relief that we didn't have the child.


the child would have been better off dead than LIVING with divorced parents? Hmmm, interesting logic.
[/quote]

man you really know how to twist the knife don't you.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

Here are my views on abortion.

I think its something that is morally disgusting. I value human life. BTW, i do consider 'life' at conception. 
I do believe that abortion is to often used at contraception. 
On the other hand, I dont believe the goverment has any right to tell anyone what they can or cant do to their bodies. 
Am I disgueted by abortion? Hell yes! Do I believe abortion should be banned? Unfortunely no. I do however think we shoudl take more liberal slant on teaching our young ones about condoms and what not. I believe that teaching abstinance to americas youth today is basically a joke.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

oh well, it's too difficult an arguement...

I dont see how you can see things my way ever... since the roots dont match...

You must think the day after pill is murder too... yikes...!


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> oh well, it's too difficult an arguement...
> 
> I dont see how you can see things my way ever... since the roots dont match...
> 
> You must think the day after pill is murder too... yikes...!


I do. A human is always a human. I value life.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

Ex0dus said:


> oh well, it's too difficult an arguement...
> 
> I dont see how you can see things my way ever... since the roots dont match...
> 
> You must think the day after pill is murder too... yikes...!


I do. A human is always a human. I value life.








[/quote]

you value life, but you support war?


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## andrew.burd (Oct 17, 2005)

instead of teaching abstinence.. they should just show the young hotties what stretch marks look like.. and show all the horny boys what happens to a young hottie when she gets pregnant...


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

I support why we are over there. War is a horrible thing. I support our troops. In a perfect world, there woudlnt be any, but a perfect world we will never see.


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## alan (Mar 11, 2004)

i think abortions are good (with rice)


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## [email protected]° (Jun 16, 2004)

Ex0dus said:


> Here are my views on abortion.
> 
> I think its something that is morally disgusting. I value human life. BTW, i do consider 'life' at conception.
> I do believe that abortion is to often used at contraception.
> ...


WOW!!

For the first time EVER I actually agree with you on a sensative political matter









I don't think it is a good or acceptable thing to do either, but NO GOVERNMENT should ever have juristiction over a citizens body!!


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## andrew.burd (Oct 17, 2005)

Ex0dus said:


> I support why we are over there. War is a horrible thing. I support our troops. In a perfect world, there woudlnt be any, but a perfect world we will never see.


How do you know it's not already a perfect world? And this is simply how it's supposed to be? People need to realize or start realizing that the world works 1,000,000 ways at the same time.. and it's up to us to formulate what we must do to keep the flow moving.


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## ty (May 14, 2004)

I really wish topics like this owuld be banned from p-fury. this is a fish site so why bother discuss this stuff here? I also find some of the comments to lack thought and relevance to the subject. The intelligence level on this site is pretty low sometimes. But anyways..
If its not a life then it wouldnt need to be killed. So its obviously living so it is considered murder. People just say its not a human yet so they can sleep better at night ..


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## syrus410 (Jun 9, 2005)

ty said:


> I really wish topics like this owuld be banned from p-fury. this is a fish site so why bother discuss this stuff here? I also find some of the comments to lack thought and relevance to the subject. The intelligence level on this site is pretty low sometimes. But anyways..
> If its not a life then it wouldnt need to be killed. So its obviously living so it is considered murder. People just say its not a human yet so they can sleep better at night ..


Thats why its called the lounge!


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

Im anti-abortion, doctors who practice it should be stripped of their medical license, its a direct violation of the hyppocratic oath, to do "NO HARM"

it just sickens me, outright murder.
if ye cant handle the consequences(sp?) then dont screw around.

pro-abortion = perverted sicko's


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## ty (May 14, 2004)

syrus410 said:


> I really wish topics like this owuld be banned from p-fury. this is a fish site so why bother discuss this stuff here? I also find some of the comments to lack thought and relevance to the subject. The intelligence level on this site is pretty low sometimes. But anyways..
> If its not a life then it wouldnt need to be killed. So its obviously living so it is considered murder. People just say its not a human yet so they can sleep better at night ..


Thats why its called the lounge!








[/quote]
Oh thanks captain obvious. and it benefits the site how?


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## mori0174 (Mar 31, 2004)

Markosaur said:


> Im anti-abortion, doctors who practice it should be stripped of their medical license, its a direct violation of the hyppocratic oath, to do "NO HARM"
> 
> it just sickens me, outright murder.
> if ye cant handle the consequences(sp?) then dont screw around.
> ...


Its called pro-choice. Also, its your opinion that doctors are doing harm rather than a service. You're really disrespectful and that really makes it hard to actually listen to anything you have to say.


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## n0vacaine (Oct 10, 2005)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> oh well, it's too difficult an arguement...
> 
> I dont see how you can see things my way ever... since the roots dont match...
> 
> You must think the day after pill is murder too... yikes...!


I do. A human is always a human. I value life.








[/quote]

you value life, but you support war?








[/quote]
i totally agree, we as people can make a decision to wipe out a bunch of people based on a principal, but we cant make a decision to do what we want with our own bodies because of morality? Yeah.............


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

mori0174 said:


> Im anti-abortion, doctors who practice it should be stripped of their medical license, its a direct violation of the hyppocratic oath, to do "NO HARM"
> 
> it just sickens me, outright murder.
> if ye cant handle the consequences(sp?) then dont screw around.
> ...


Its called pro-choice. Also, its your opinion that doctors are doing harm rather than a service. You're really disrespectful and that really makes it hard to actually listen to anything you have to say.
[/quote]

He is entitled to his opinion. Abortion is a very sensitive subject for some people creating huge emotions. 
IMO, its really neither 'pro-life' or 'pro-choice'. These are just names groups came up with to make their cause seem more noble.


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## mori0174 (Mar 31, 2004)

Ex0dus said:


> Im anti-abortion, doctors who practice it should be stripped of their medical license, its a direct violation of the hyppocratic oath, to do "NO HARM"
> 
> it just sickens me, outright murder.
> if ye cant handle the consequences(sp?) then dont screw around.
> ...


Its called pro-choice. Also, its your opinion that doctors are doing harm rather than a service. You're really disrespectful and that really makes it hard to actually listen to anything you have to say.
[/quote]

He is entitled to his opinion. Abortion is a very sensitive subject for some people creating huge emotions. 
IMO, its really neither 'pro-life' or 'pro-choice'. These are just names groups came up with to make their cause seem more noble.
[/quote]

Well i dont think anyone is "pro-abortion"...That makes no sense. Its a CHOICE, not something people campaign for you to do as much as possible..And emotional or not, if I called him a f*cking idiot for his belief then im not emotional but an asshole..


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

imo, you either for it or against it... pro life, pro choice... both gimicks... propaganda imo.


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

Ex0dus said:


> there is no pro choice ....
> 
> its pro life or pro death.


i like that...


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> it's not a life.... yet...
> 
> it cannot live on its own...


Doesn't a baby (out of her mothers womb) need complete care 24/7? I mean a baby doesn't get born and hit the streets to fend for his/herself... LOL


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> it's not a life.... yet...
> 
> it cannot live on its own...


Doesn't a baby (out of her mothers womb) need complete care 24/7? I mean a baby doesn't get born and hit the streets to fend for his/herself... LOL
[/quote]

In Canada they do:


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Suction Abortion: Used during the first three months of pregnancy - A suction tube (27 times stronger than a home vacuum cleaner) is inserted into the womb. The powerful suction tears the baby apart limb from limb and sucks it from the womb along with the placenta. The baby's remains are deposited into an attached waste bottle.

Dilation and Curettage (D&C): Used at the end of the third month of pregnancy (approximately 12 weeks) - The cervix is dialated, ring forceps are inserted into the womb and the baby is extracted piece by piece. Then a curette (a sharp knife in a loop shape) is inserted and used to scrape away any of the baby or the placenta that remains. Profuse bleeding follows.

Dilation and Extraction (D&E): Used after 13 weeks - The cervix is dialated and the unborn child is dismembered with plier-like forceps. Force is needed to pull the baby apart. The instrument is used to seize a leg or other part of the body and then, with a twisting motion, tear it from the baby's body. The baby's spine is snapped and the skull crushed. After the baby parts are removed, they are reassembled outside the womb to be sure all are removed. Frequently baby parts are left inside the mother's womb. This can cause serious complications and sometimes death.

Partial-Birth Abortion: Partial-Birth Abortions are used from the 4th month through the end of the 9th month of pregnancy. These late-term abortions are regularly used to kill healthy babies that pose no danger or threat to their mother.

For this abortion, the abortionist uses ultrasound to locate the unborn baby's legs. Forceps are then used to pull the baby's legs through the birth canal, delivering the baby feet first, except for the head. Scissors are then used to puncture the base of the back of the head. A suction device is then inserted to suction out the baby's brain so the skull will easily collapse. The dead baby is then removed.

When I was a Senior back in high school I took this poli sci class that was offered. Our final was to write a 10 page term paper on abortion. You had to choose whether you were pro choice or pro life. I thought this was a great chance to argue my pro choice stance. Then as I started doing my research both online, in books, newspapers, and magazine articles I started seeing the horror of it all. Pro Choice looks great on paper by allowing women the right to choose. Seeing the graphic nature of the event and the emotional toll it takes on the mother after she realizes what she's done, it just too great to side with Pro Choice. In the end I wrote my paper in favor of Pro Life.

EDIT: Pictures removed.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2005)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> Suction Abortion: Used during the first three months of pregnancy - A suction tube (27 times stronger than a home vacuum cleaner) is inserted into the womb. The powerful suction tears the baby apart limb from limb and sucks it from the womb along with the placenta. The baby's remains are deposited into an attached waste bottle.
> 
> Dilation and Curettage (D&C): Used at the end of the third month of pregnancy (approximately 12 weeks) - The cervix is dialated, ring forceps are inserted into the womb and the baby is extracted piece by piece. Then a curette (a sharp knife in a loop shape) is inserted and used to scrape away any of the baby or the placenta that remains. Profuse bleeding follows.
> 
> ...


Karen that weas fuckin sick and uncalled for. Weve all seen these images and I choose not to see them, so you could have atleast put a warning an some spaces for seperation.

And isnt it against rules to post pics of dead bodies/people getting killed? Seems like you broke a rule.

I know you posted those to prove a point and think its just you "telling thehard truth" but its not something which needs to be openly displayed, especially when there are young kids on here.

BTW, arent you one of the people who is against "disrespecting troops" by showing thier bodies on the news? Well, I think you are disrespecting all unborn aborted children by posting the brutal reality of thier deaths on some forum...same logic.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

They're drawings...you see them in science books.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2005)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> They're drawings...you see them in science books.


Yea I know, but they have no place on here.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> They're drawings...you see them in science books.


Yea I know, but they have no place on here.
[/quote]
Oh really? Since when? Theyre just showing how a medical procedure is done.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2005)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> They're drawings...you see them in science books.


Yea I know, but they have no place on here.
[/quote]
Oh really? Since when? Theyre just showing how a medical procedure is done.
[/quote]

You ever think of how they might affect people? Namely those who have had or know someone who has had one of those procedures done? Hits close to home.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> They're drawings...you see them in science books.


Yea I know, but they have no place on here.
[/quote]
Oh really? Since when? Theyre just showing how a medical procedure is done.
[/quote]

You ever think of how they might affect people? Namely those who have had or know someone who has had one of those procedures done? Hits close to home.
[/quote]
I know plenty of people who have had it done. Its reality, Im sorry.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2005)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> They're drawings...you see them in science books.


Yea I know, but they have no place on here.
[/quote]
Oh really? Since when? Theyre just showing how a medical procedure is done.
[/quote]

You ever think of how they might affect people? Namely those who have had or know someone who has had one of those procedures done? Hits close to home.
[/quote]
I know plenty of people who have had it done. Its reality, Im sorry.
[/quote]

Did anyone question that its not the reality? Well, Im just goin to forget about it. Who am I to question a big bad mod







So can I post pictures of girls getting fucked? How about a guy getting shot in the face? Or someone getting thier throat slit and their balls cut off. As long as they are cartoons right?


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> They're drawings...you see them in science books.


Yea I know, but they have no place on here.
[/quote]
Oh really? Since when? Theyre just showing how a medical procedure is done.
[/quote]

You ever think of how they might affect people? Namely those who have had or know someone who has had one of those procedures done? Hits close to home.
[/quote]

Danny,
Do you have ANY idea how is effects me to have to view disgusting images of fish eating live food? I think Karen shoudl ask Mike to have all pics/videos of live sh*t moved to that passworded forum.

Karen,
Good for you. Its pretty rare these days to see a younger woman taking that stand. I respect you for that


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2005)

Ex0dus said:


> They're drawings...you see them in science books.


Yea I know, but they have no place on here.
[/quote]
Oh really? Since when? Theyre just showing how a medical procedure is done.
[/quote]

You ever think of how they might affect people? Namely those who have had or know someone who has had one of those procedures done? Hits close to home.
[/quote]

Danny,
Do you have ANY idea how is effects me to have to view disgusting images of fish eating live food? I think Karen shoudl ask Mike to have all pics/videos of live sh*t moved to that passworded forum.

Karen,
Good for you. Its pretty rare these days to see a younger woman taking that stand. I respect you for that
[/quote]

1. What the hell are you talking about. Live feedings? Ive never supported live feedings if you arent being sarcastic.

2. Posting gruesome images on a fish forum full of kids isnt taking a stand.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

I didnt say you post that crap... I was being sarcastic. Meh, go support my suggestion to move the live food pic/videos to another forum









linky


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2005)

Ex0dus said:


> I didnt say you post that crap... I was being sarcastic. Meh, go support my suggestion to move the live food pic/videos to another forum
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

you rock.. even if you are Canadian


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I didn't see the images (maybe I was lucky this time), but the procedure Ms. natt is discussing is valid. I find it rediculous that people are offended by the medical reality of how a procedure is done when it is in plain view for all to see. When in public reality, people do not want others to see it because of that reality of how a child (pol. correctness= fetus) is removed. Grow up people, fetus are torn out or sucked out of women in the 1,000's daily in the U.S. alone. Planned Parenthood even made T-shirts available for women to wear proclaiming they had an abortion. So what is more offensive?


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## Uncle Rico (Sep 4, 2005)

I believe that medically the women and the baby are still two distinct living things. I'm still not sure how I feel on this issue but it bugs me when people say "It's her body, she can do what she wants."


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## seharebo (Jul 19, 2004)

Pro-Choice. You have no right to control my body. Have any of you ever even read Roe v. Wade? The actual court case is very interesting and I suggest that you read the history of the case as well. I think that you would all be very surprised as to what the case discusses. I am tired of people saying overturn Roe v Wade w/o reading it or knowing what it all involves.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2005)

hastatus said:


> I didn't see the images (maybe I was lucky this time), but the procedure Ms. natt is discussing is valid. I find it rediculous that people are offended by the medical reality of how a procedure is done when it is in plain view for all to see. When in public reality, people do not want others to see it because of that reality of how a child (pol. correctness= fetus) is removed. Grow up people, fetus are torn out or sucked out of women in the 1,000's daily in the U.S. alone. Planned Parenthood even made T-shirts available for women to wear proclaiming they had an abortion. So what is more offensive?


How can you comment on the images if you didnt even see them? Like I said, if you are just going to say its reality, then whats wrong withv posting pics or images of people getting killed in different ways? Murder is murder.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

seharebo said:


> Pro-Choice. You have no right to control my body. Have any of you ever even read Roe v. Wade? The actual court case is very interesting and I suggest that you read the history of the case as well. I think that you would all be very surprised as to what the case discusses. I am tired of people saying overturn Roe v Wade w/o reading it or knowing what it all involves.


Yet you have the right to control the rights of your unborn child, right? Wrong. If you cant take the responsibility for your actions, that child should not have to suffer the consequences. There are many alternatives, such as foster care and adoption that you can turn to. You cant give me one good reason why that child doesnt deserve the life you gave it.

The ONLY time a child should ever be considered for an abortion is when the mothers life is at risk and they cant save the child/fetus.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2005)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> Pro-Choice. You have no right to control my body. Have any of you ever even read Roe v. Wade? The actual court case is very interesting and I suggest that you read the history of the case as well. I think that you would all be very surprised as to what the case discusses. I am tired of people saying overturn Roe v Wade w/o reading it or knowing what it all involves.


Yet you have the right to control the rights of your unborn child, right? Wrong. If you cant take the responsibility for your actions, that child should not have to suffer the consequences. There are many alternatives, such as foster care and adoption that you can turn to. You cant give me one good reason why that child doesnt deserve the life you gave it.

*The ONLY time a child should ever be considered for an abortion is when the mothers life is at risk and they cant save the child/fetus.*
[/quote]

I agree!


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## seharebo (Jul 19, 2004)

When is it murder? The question is when is it a human. For all you Christians, the bible says in Lev. 17-11 - 11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (King James Version). Therefore this murder argument has a hole, for the fetus does not start to circulate blood until 8 weeks. http://www.pwhealth.com/development.html By logic, Christians are mistaken and should not have an issue with abortion until 8 weeks. Thought you all might find this interesting.......

***Keep your rosaries off of my ovaries....



DannyBoy17 said:


> I didn't see the images (maybe I was lucky this time), but the procedure Ms. natt is discussing is valid. I find it rediculous that people are offended by the medical reality of how a procedure is done when it is in plain view for all to see. When in public reality, people do not want others to see it because of that reality of how a child (pol. correctness= fetus) is removed. Grow up people, fetus are torn out or sucked out of women in the 1,000's daily in the U.S. alone. Planned Parenthood even made T-shirts available for women to wear proclaiming they had an abortion. So what is more offensive?


How can you comment on the images if you didnt even see them? Like I said, if you are just going to say its reality, then whats wrong withv posting pics or images of people getting killed in different ways? Murder is murder.
[/quote]


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2005)

seharebo said:


> I didn't see the images (maybe I was lucky this time), but the procedure Ms. natt is discussing is valid. I find it rediculous that people are offended by the medical reality of how a procedure is done when it is in plain view for all to see. When in public reality, people do not want others to see it because of that reality of how a child (pol. correctness= fetus) is removed. Grow up people, fetus are torn out or sucked out of women in the 1,000's daily in the U.S. alone. Planned Parenthood even made T-shirts available for women to wear proclaiming they had an abortion. So what is more offensive?


How can you comment on the images if you didnt even see them? Like I said, if you are just going to say its reality, then whats wrong withv posting pics or images of people getting killed in different ways? Murder is murder.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I odnt think its wrong because Im a christian. I think its wrong because I am a *human*.


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## seharebo (Jul 19, 2004)

So, you didn't read the case. The issue in Roe v Wade is more than just abortion. It is the larger picture of limiting the scope of the 14th Amendment (Due Process) and the right to privacy. More important is limiting this scope for women - which could set precident for other legislation. Look at the big picture. Educate yourself. This case has more connotations than just legalizing abortion. The case citation is 410 US 113.

It is my body and the legislative bodies should not have control over it.



Ms_Nattereri said:


> Pro-Choice. You have no right to control my body. Have any of you ever even read Roe v. Wade? The actual court case is very interesting and I suggest that you read the history of the case as well. I think that you would all be very surprised as to what the case discusses. I am tired of people saying overturn Roe v Wade w/o reading it or knowing what it all involves.


Yet you have the right to control the rights of your unborn child, right? Wrong. If you cant take the responsibility for your actions, that child should not have to suffer the consequences. There are many alternatives, such as foster care and adoption that you can turn to. You cant give me one good reason why that child doesnt deserve the life you gave it.

The ONLY time a child should ever be considered for an abortion is when the mothers life is at risk and they cant save the child/fetus.
[/quote]


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

seharebo said:


> When is it murder? The question is when is it a human. For all you Christians, the bible says in Lev. 17-11 - 11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (King James Version). Therefore this murder argument has a hole, for the fetus does not start to circulate blood until 8 weeks. http://www.pwhealth.com/development.html By logic, Christians are mistaken and should not have an issue with abortion until 8 weeks. Thought you all might find this interesting.......
> 
> ***Keep your rosaries off of my ovaries....


The heart starts beating at a little past 3 weeks...around the 22nd-24th day...

So before you even realize youve missed your period, the baby's heart is already pumping. And that I consider alive.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> So, you didn't read the case. The issue in Roe v Wade is more than just abortion. It is the larger picture of limiting the scope of the 14th Amendment (Due Process) and the right to privacy. More important is limiting this scope for women - which could set precident for other legislation. Look at the big picture. Educate yourself. This case has more connotations than just legalizing abortion. The case citation is 410 US 113.
> 
> It is my body and the legislative bodies should not have control over it.


OK, it's your body. You know the outcome of having sex. A life is created. That is a no brainer.

This is giving mothers the right to murder their own child, because it is 'their' body.... (that is another argument..) 
I say, get educated yourself, and have sex when you won't commit murder at the outcome, but I guess that means you would have to think about someone else,(your own child) and someone else's 'right to live' for a change


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## teamevil (May 18, 2005)

its murder







women should learn how to close there legs, there stupid if they dont want a baby tell the guy to put on a condom, bag or something. i dont care let them kill there babys and go to hell







i bet abortion is ganna be legal, the devil will make it pass for women will kill there babys. evil always wins


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Pro-choice, pro-life...does anyone really know what they'd do until they're in that particular situation? I know plenty of people that pulled the hypocrite card and said over and over "Oh, I'd NEVER get an abortion, that's wrong." Boy, did their tune change when they got preggers. What would I do? I have no idea. I'm pro-choice, by the way. Though I don't feel that abortion should be used as a regular form of birth control, I do feel that it should be left up to the individual woman and shouldn't be a religious zealot's right to force their beliefs onto someone else. If we let someone's belief that life is created upon conception make our laws about abortion, what's next? Instituted religion? Banning of divorce? It can even touch upon gay rights and adoption.

Think of it this way...there are too many people on this earth. Too many bad parents raising kids...to many kids that grow up in bad situations, etc. Honestly, I feel that more women should be getting abortions. What about rape? You think that's not damaging to the woman by having her carry a reminder to that day for the rest of her life? Honestly, if I were raped and was forced to bear a resulting child, I think I would resent that child immensely. What if I were to get pregnant while in my monogamous relationship and neither of us wanted a child? Granted, it takes two to tango but accidents do happen. If I were to bear an unwanted child, don't you think that child would suffer growing up in a resentful home?

I wouldn't let a medical journal make a decision for me based on a procedure. Sit in on or read details on any surgical procedure...many are downright disgusting and can be quite invasive. Jeeze, a colonoscopy can seem like anal rape if you read the right paper on it.

The simple fact of the matter is this: it's all opinion. Some people feel that life is created upon conception...others don't. I personally don't, just like I don't believe in the same creation myths or god(s) as others. It's all what we believe. Can we change that? Nope, just like we have to live with others that share different political or religious views. Does that mean that the majority that happens to be in power has the right to impose those views on others? It most certainly does not. The United States was founded on the fact that people are different and we have the right to be different. Just because you don't like what someone else might believe doesn't give you the right to say that they can't believe it. You might as well be saying that they don't have the right to worship their gods or believe in gay rights or eat meat on Friday. To you, your next door neighbor might be a sinner because he's gay or keeps snakes as pets. To someone else he might be a hero. Does that mean that you have the right to say that he can't live his life just because you personally don't like his lifestyle? Nope...just like you don't have the right to say that a woman can't get an abortion because she wants one.

Also, someone said that it's either black or white with American politics. It does seem that way but it doesn't have to. I'm extremely liberal on some things and conservative on others. One main thing is gun control. I'm PRO-GUN. Take away guns from the "good guys" and the bad guys are still going to have them. I grew up around guns. I was taught safety from a young age. I do not fear them.

I'm conservative when it comes to welfare reform. Take it away almost completely I say. There needs to be more rigid restrictions on it. I'm not happy paying for lazy slugs to sit on their butts because they know they can suck off the tit of humanity indefinately and get more money by having more children.

So, no matter how liberal I am on issues such as gay rights, abortion, war, and religion, I'm also conservative on others. There is a grey area. Both sides need to acknowlege each other and realize that it's always going to be a stalemate until they learn to work together.


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

dracofish said:


> Honestly, I feel that more women should be getting abortions. What about rape? You think that's not damaging to the woman by having her carry a reminder to that day for the rest of her life? Honestly, if I were raped and was forced to bear a resulting child, I think I would resent that child immensely.


I don't disagree with you, however it should be noted that even a lot of ultra-conservative right wing politicans support making an exception in case of pregnancies caused by rape as far as abortions go.

It should also be noted that there are other alternatives to abortion in case of unwanted pregnancies - such as giving a baby up for adoption. I don't think that more women should be getting abortion, I think it'd be better if more people took proper precautions and the number of abortions would be reduced.

In the end I still support a woman's right to choose just because I believe in the goverment that doesn't intrude in the lives of its citizens


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2005)

Jewelz said:


> Honestly, I feel that more women should be getting abortions. What about rape? You think that's not damaging to the woman by having her carry a reminder to that day for the rest of her life? Honestly, if I were raped and was forced to bear a resulting child, I think I would resent that child immensely.


I don't disagree with you, however it should be noted that even a lot of ultra-conservative right wing politicans support making an exception in case of pregnancies caused by rape as far as abortions go.

It should also be noted that there are other alternatives to abortion in case of unwanted pregnancies - such as giving a baby up for adoption. I don't think that more women should be getting abortion, I think it'd be better if more people took proper precautions and the number of abortions would be reduced.

In the end I still support a woman's right to choose just because I believe in the goverment that doesn't intrude in the lives of its citizens
[/quote]

You're a naughty Republican!


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Honestly, I feel that more women should be getting abortions. What about rape? You think that's not damaging to the woman by having her carry a reminder to that day for the rest of her life? Honestly, if I were raped and was forced to bear a resulting child, I think I would resent that child immensely.


I don't disagree with you, however it should be noted that even a lot of ultra-conservative right wing politicans support making an exception in case of pregnancies caused by rape as far as abortions go.

It should also be noted that there are other alternatives to abortion in case of unwanted pregnancies - such as giving a baby up for adoption. I don't think that more women should be getting abortion, I think it'd be better if more people took proper precautions and the number of abortions would be reduced.

In the end I still support a woman's right to choose just because I believe in the goverment that doesn't intrude in the lives of its citizens
[/quote]

You're a naughty Republican!
[/quote]

not a Republican, an independent conservative, thanks to Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfield and a host of other idiot neocons


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Jewelz said:


> Honestly, I feel that more women should be getting abortions. What about rape? You think that's not damaging to the woman by having her carry a reminder to that day for the rest of her life? Honestly, if I were raped and was forced to bear a resulting child, I think I would resent that child immensely.


I don't disagree with you, however it should be noted that even a lot of ultra-conservative right wing politicans support making an exception in case of pregnancies caused by rape as far as abortions go.

It should also be noted that there are other alternatives to abortion in case of unwanted pregnancies - such as giving a baby up for adoption. I don't think that more women should be getting abortion, I think it'd be better if more people took proper precautions and the number of abortions would be reduced.

In the end I still support a woman's right to choose just because I believe in the goverment that doesn't intrude in the lives of its citizens
[/quote]

It's not that I think abortion should be the easiest "way out." Birth control should be the first step. My fiance and I have decided that neither of us wants children. Because of my family history, hormonal therapy is not an option for me (I also don't think that altering body chemistry like that is healthy in any way, which it has proven over time that it can be detrimental). Right now our only option is the good 'ol condom. Luckily we haven't had any problems after six years. We've come to the decision that it's not going to be a fix forever. My fiance has chosen to get a vasectomy. It's the most likely and easiest choice, considering that a tubal ligation is a pretty big ordeal in comparison. Sorry for the rambling, but now comes the point...without abortion as an option, all the women that would be abortion candidates would be forced to bear their children. Most of those children would be put into the adoption pool. Does that solve anything? I don't think so. I think that would result in more of a problem...there are already too many kids without homes. In fact, we've decided that if we ever did want a child, that would be what we would do. There are too many people in this world already, why have our own and add to the problem when we can help out a child that doesn't have a home?

While some "crusaders" think that taking abortion away will solve so many problems, it is bound to create others. There is always an effect to ever cause. I think abuse cases would go up, welfare, crime, everything that results from neglect and people living on the streets or growing up in such conditions as being bounced from home to home or neglected or abused.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

1. To Danny, just because I didn't see the posted pictures, doesn't necessarily mean I have NOT SEEN the pictures before.

2. Roe v. Wade was built on a falsehood. The woman was not raped and since then she has recanted her testimony that launched the "right to an abortion". I am not taking a stand whether or not it is immoral or against Christian values. What I am stating is to make a Law that impacts on the land based on a lie is immoral and offensive. It should be reviewed with all its ugliness exposed.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

dracofish said:


> ... If we let someone's belief that life is created upon conception make our laws about abortion, what's next? Instituted religion? Banning of divorce? It can even touch upon gay rights and adoption....


I am no religious zealot, but I believe 'life' starts at conception. Who is anyone to tell me otherwise?


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2005)

You know, Im not sure where I stand. I feel its murder...but what if its a male cell and there is a history of hemophelia in the family?


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## WilliamBradley (Nov 23, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


>


lol


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## ty (May 14, 2004)

People are so ridicolous they are for abortion but cant even look at drawings of the results of what they want. If they dont want the baby then dont get pregnant. its murder because if it wanst a life it wouldnt need ot be killed. so they are stopping a life ..so its murder.


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## Puff (Feb 14, 2005)

Karen- i never knew about all those different types of abortions. thats pretty fucked up! you just gave me a whole new view on abortions...pretty fucked up killing a premature baby like you would cull puppies or kittens...(the thing with puncturing the skull and sucking out brains!)

i still feel it should be up to the lady who's pregnant to decide, but i think that the decision should have to be made within the first month or something. after that the baby is too developed...and it makes things kinda creepy....

im not arguing anything in this thead, but i than Karen for letting us know of the procedures (altho im kinda glad i didnt see the pics.lol)...

you can find me at ogrish...lol.


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## rbp75 (May 2, 2004)

ty said:


> People are so ridicolous they are for abortion but cant even look at drawings of the results of what they want. If they dont want the baby then dont get pregnant. its murder because if it wanst a life it wouldnt need ot be killed. so they are stopping a life ..so its murder.


well said. those drawings didnt even come close to the reality of what abortions look like. I was so tempted to post pics of actual abortions but I probably would have been banned.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

This thread has went alot better than I expected. Glad we can talk about a sensitive subject in a mature manner.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2005)

Ex0dus said:


> This thread has went alot better than I expected. Glad we can talk about a sensitive subject in a mature manner.


f*ck off


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> This thread has went alot better than I expected. Glad we can talk about a sensitive subject in a mature manner.


f*ck off








[/quote]

typically war hungry canadians... pfft


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Ex0dus said:


> ... If we let someone's belief that life is created upon conception make our laws about abortion, what's next? Instituted religion? Banning of divorce? It can even touch upon gay rights and adoption....


I am no religious zealot, but I believe 'life' starts at conception. Who is anyone to tell me otherwise?
[/quote]

And who is anyone else to tell someone that doesn't believe in life upon conception that they cannot get an abortion because a law was passed based off _someone else's_ religious beliefs?

The fact of the matter is that it matters not what you or I believe...it should be left up to the individual to decide...


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

If you read my views on abortion.. Heres it sumarized

abortion bad
abortion disgusting
Gov have no right
abortion bad
abortion disgusting
think its to much used as contraception
woudl fall in the side of abortion, to an extent.

HOWEVER, I still believe 'life' starts at conception... Is abortion imo? Yes. Is it my right to tell you what you can or cant do? nope... I find it totally disgusting tho.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

dracofish said:


> ... If we let someone's belief that life is created upon conception make our laws about abortion, what's next? Instituted religion? Banning of divorce? It can even touch upon gay rights and adoption....


I am no religious zealot, but I believe 'life' starts at conception. Who is anyone to tell me otherwise?
[/quote]

And who is anyone else to tell someone that doesn't believe in life upon conception that they cannot get an abortion because a law was passed based off _someone else's_ religious beliefs?

The fact of the matter is that it matters not what you or I believe...it should be left up to the individual to decide...
[/quote]
Why does someone have to be religious to have an opinion as to when life starts? If the sperm enters the egg does it not count as fertilization? I believe so...and in which case doesnt life begin to form? Take a human anatomy class and see the process of it. Its rather amazing how much the body changes to cater to that "body of cells".

How about a fathers right to choose? The father had just as much invested into creating the life...why shouldnt he have the chance to opt in and say he wants the child?


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## rbp75 (May 2, 2004)

dracofish said:


> ... If we let someone's belief that life is created upon conception make our laws about abortion, what's next? Instituted religion? Banning of divorce? It can even touch upon gay rights and adoption....


I am no religious zealot, but I believe 'life' starts at conception. Who is anyone to tell me otherwise?
[/quote]

And who is anyone else to tell someone that doesn't believe in life upon conception that they cannot get an abortion because a law was passed based off _someone else's_ religious beliefs?

The fact of the matter is that it matters not what you or I believe...it should be left up to the individual to decide...
[/quote]

Who is anyone to tell me that if I wanted to kill my 1 year old child because I dont want him anymore that I couldnt. Its my child I should be able to kill it if I want. After all the baby would know what was going on.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

rbp75 said:


> ... If we let someone's belief that life is created upon conception make our laws about abortion, what's next? Instituted religion? Banning of divorce? It can even touch upon gay rights and adoption....


I am no religious zealot, but I believe 'life' starts at conception. Who is anyone to tell me otherwise?
[/quote]

And who is anyone else to tell someone that doesn't believe in life upon conception that they cannot get an abortion because a law was passed based off _someone else's_ religious beliefs?

The fact of the matter is that it matters not what you or I believe...it should be left up to the individual to decide...
[/quote]

Who is anyone to tell me that if I wanted to kill my 1 year old child because I dont want him anymore that I couldnt. Its my child I should be able to kill it if I want. After all the baby would know what was going on.
[/quote]

Get the laws changed about "conception"
In the feds eyes a baby enutro (sp) is considered a fetus... non human basically.


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## rbp75 (May 2, 2004)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> ... If we let someone's belief that life is created upon conception make our laws about abortion, what's next? Instituted religion? Banning of divorce? It can even touch upon gay rights and adoption....


I am no religious zealot, but I believe 'life' starts at conception. Who is anyone to tell me otherwise?
[/quote]

And who is anyone else to tell someone that doesn't believe in life upon conception that they cannot get an abortion because a law was passed based off _someone else's_ religious beliefs?

The fact of the matter is that it matters not what you or I believe...it should be left up to the individual to decide...
[/quote]
Why does someone have to be religious to have an opinion as to when life starts? If the sperm enters the egg does it not count as fertilization? I believe so...and in which case doesnt life begin to form? Take a human anatomy class and see the process of it. Its rather amazing how much the body changes to cater to that "body of cells".

How about a fathers right to choose? The father had just as much invested into creating the life...why shouldnt he have the chance to opt in and say he wants the child?
[/quote]

Thats what kills me, every pro choice person blames pro life people on their religion as the structure of their beliefs. I am not a religious person and I believe abortion is murder.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

What makes me most sick about this is -pro-choice- people most likely will be the first to flame you about killing your pet fish.. go figure.

Not that pets aren't important to care for, but they probably care more about their pets lives than their own baby's..

And I agree with Ms natteri and rbp75.. who said anything about religion draco?? Does it take a religious zealot to think that life starts at conseption? Funny statement--how about common sense?

don't be so blind! Convincing yourself that life isn't life until you say so is quite funny and makes you look --well-- 'blind'

Kill your baby if you want. I won't stop you. Just realize you would be stopping human life, no matter how hard that person's life may be in the future.

Ms natteri with another winning statement.. the father should have a 50% say so in the matter no matter what. Great statement.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> What makes me most sick about this is -pro-choice- people most likely will be the first to flame you about killing your pet fish.. go figure.
> 
> Not that pets aren't important to care for, but they probably care more about their pets lives than their own baby's..
> 
> ...


I disagree with the last part. Maybe if they were married. I have several female buddies who have had kids out of wedlock.75%+ are no longer with baby daddy and @ 50% broke up with baby daddy during their pregnancy. basically, if they are unwed imo the baby daddy has no say in the matter.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2005)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> ... If we let someone's belief that life is created upon conception make our laws about abortion, what's next? Instituted religion? Banning of divorce? It can even touch upon gay rights and adoption....


I am no religious zealot, but I believe 'life' starts at conception. Who is anyone to tell me otherwise?
[/quote]

And who is anyone else to tell someone that doesn't believe in life upon conception that they cannot get an abortion because a law was passed based off _someone else's_ religious beliefs?

The fact of the matter is that it matters not what you or I believe...it should be left up to the individual to decide...
[/quote]
Why does someone have to be religious to have an opinion as to when life starts? If the sperm enters the egg does it not count as fertilization? I believe so...and in which case doesnt life begin to form? Take a human anatomy class and see the process of it. Its rather amazing how much the body changes to cater to that "body of cells".

How about a fathers right to choose? The father had just as much invested into creating the life...why shouldnt he have the chance to opt in and say he wants the child?
[/quote]

Ask your friends that


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

I've never heard of a baby being made without a father.

But I do agree that if they want to take a hike, oh well. they dont care anyway. sickning? yes, to me.. the option should stand


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Religion doesn't have to have anything to do with it. I'm just saying that the two tend to go hand in hand a lot. Regardless, it boils down to personal opinion. I don't believe that a mass of cells incapable of sustaining it's own life (ok, a 2 year old can't shop for itself or work, but it can BREATHE on it's own) is the same as a child. That's my opinion. I have said nothing in this entire argument against anyone's beliefs about life upon conception...don't try to tell me that my opinion doesn't have as much merit as yours. I'm not trying to say that you are wrong for believing it...please give me as much respect. As far as I'm concerned, at that point, that fertilized lump of cells is still part of the mother's body. I'm not saying that abortions should be performed far into the pregnancy...I'm talking about 1st trimester...

As far as saying that "pro-choice" people are the first to flame someone about putting a fish down...well, I've owned fish. I've had to deal with loss and putting some down that were sick or harmed beyond saving. I did it because the fish was suffering. I also put my 17 year old cat to sleep earlier this year because his kidneys had failed and he was dying. Don't lump all pro-choice people into the same barrel. Just because you're pro-choice doesn't mean that you have to be a member of PETA. In actuality, PETA people should be pro-life!

I'm not saying that every pregnant woman should go out and get an abortion. All I'm saying is that regardless of what you or I believe, it still should be that person's right. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that they shouldn't have the right to make that decision. I mean, why not take away a person's right to have a Living Will? You might believe that suicide is wrong, but anyone has the right to sign a contract stating that they do not want to live if they can no longer sustain themselves without the help of a machine. What about the people that follow out that person's wishes? Are they now murderers?

BTW, I did well in my anatomy and physiology class...


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

I agree with you Draco, many should have had abortions... especially the 16 y/o girls... those poor kids...!!!

I support pro choice...


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

lets compare the birth rates among 13-16yr say between 1950 and today. We must be doing something wrong.... I dont think abortion is the answer to this issue.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

no, but I do think that parents that pressure their "kids" to NOT get abortions cause more harm than good...


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> many should have had abortions... especially the 16 y/o girls... those poor kids...!!!


No what they should have done is kept their legs closed or gone to planned parenthood and gotten the free condoms or birth control..or heres an idea..practiced abstinence.

I cant feel sorry for a sixteen year old given todays open awareness about sex and pregnancy. Im sorry. I had sex ed back when I was 13/14...even then I knew about contraceptives and the like. So the whole age excuse isnt really an excuse.


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## Uncle Rico (Sep 4, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Pro-choice, pro-life...does anyone really know what they'd do until they're in that particular situation? I know plenty of people that pulled the hypocrite card and said over and over "Oh, I'd NEVER get an abortion, that's wrong." Boy, did their tune change when they got preggers. What would I do? I have no idea. I'm pro-choice, by the way. Though I don't feel that abortion should be used as a regular form of birth control, I do feel that it should be left up to the individual woman and shouldn't be a religious zealot's right to force their beliefs onto someone else. If we let someone's belief that life is created upon conception make our laws about abortion, what's next? Instituted religion? Banning of divorce? It can even touch upon gay rights and adoption.
> 
> Think of it this way...there are too many people on this earth. Too many bad parents raising kids...to many kids that grow up in bad situations, etc. Honestly, I feel that more women should be getting abortions. What about rape? You think that's not damaging to the woman by having her carry a reminder to that day for the rest of her life? Honestly, if I were raped and was forced to bear a resulting child, I think I would resent that child immensely. What if I were to get pregnant while in my monogamous relationship and neither of us wanted a child? Granted, it takes two to tango but accidents do happen. If I were to bear an unwanted child, don't you think that child would suffer growing up in a resentful home?
> 
> ...


I like that, most people feel like they have to take the side of "their" party on every issue.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

i dont think it should be the govts position to tell someone they can or cannot have an abortion whether i agree with it or not doesnt matter..

i think it should be the womans right to choose and it doesnt matter what teh circumstances are, a woman shouldnt have to justify why she wants and abortion if she is raped, if she knows sha cannot provide for the child, if doctors can tell if it will be retarded, if the woman is retarted what ever the reason it should be the womans choice..

honestly i think there should be more abortions, there are too many idiots having too many kids that they either cant care for and grow up to be a burden to society..


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## Alexraptor (Jan 30, 2003)

abortion because you cant care for a child should be out of the question, if you cant care for it then hand it away for adoption


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

Markosaur said:


> abortion because you cant care for a child should be out of the question, if you cant care for it then hand it away for adoption


what if the pregnancy is certain daeth for the mother? another reason for an abortion..


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> honestly i think there should be more abortions, there are too many idiots having too many kids that they either cant care for and grow up to be a burden to society..


How about more contraception and birth control ? Certainly seems like a better alternative to more abortions to me


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

Jewelz said:


> honestly i think there should be more abortions, there are too many idiots having too many kids that they either cant care for and grow up to be a burden to society..


How about more contraception and birth control ? Certainly seems like a better alternative to more abortions to me
[/quote]

well i absolutely agree with that too and it pisses me of that the stupid ass chatloic church wont promote the use of condoms, not just to prevent pregnancy but also to prevent the spread of STD's


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2005)

Jewelz said:


> honestly i think there should be more abortions, there are too many idiots having too many kids that they either cant care for and grow up to be a burden to society..


How about more contraception and birth control ? Certainly seems like a better alternative to more abortions to me
[/quote]

Great point Jewelz. Why couldnt the defensive coordinator of the Pats share that intelligence with ya last night









Anyways, IVe come to the conclusion that what I believe shouldnt influence how someone makes such a big decision. Should it be illegal? No. Should people do it? Thats between a mother, father and thier beliefs


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## icedizzle (Feb 3, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> honestly i think there should be more abortions, there are too many idiots having too many kids that they either cant care for and grow up to be a burden to society..


How about more contraception and birth control ? Certainly seems like a better alternative to more abortions to me
[/quote]

Great point Jewelz. Why couldnt the defensive coordinator of the Pats share that intelligence with ya last night









Anyways, IVe come to the conclusion that what I believe shouldnt influence how someone makes such a big decision. Should it be illegal? No. *Should people do it? Thats between a mother, father and thier beliefs*
[/quote]

I think abortion should be totally up to the parents invovled. After all it's there choice (it's a free country good and bad) and they are the ones that are going to have to live with that decision for the rest of there lives.


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## mdmedicine (Dec 20, 2004)

*The Practical Advantages of Post-Birth Abortion: A Swiftian Proposal
*_by Jessica Cantelon_

*Unlike pre-birth abortion, post-partum abortion is natural-selection-friendly, and would provide an effective filter for society by sifting out the "bad eggs" before they become full-fledged adults.*



Why is the abortion debate so restrictive?

I mean, considering the ever-present saliency of this issue in our country, why is the debate restricted to unborn babies only?

People make abortion out to be an impossibly irresolvable issue -- a war of combative values that, like the fighting between the Turks and Kurds, will continue as long as those values exist. Intelligent people fall into uncontrolled episodes of great emotional distress and wild fervor when someone mentions abortion, casting off any semblance of reason that once existed.

Fearing complete loss of control, people generally avoid bringing the subject up at all in order to prevent things from getting out of hand. The issue has become so touchy that journalists refuse to touch it; media "discussion" has deteriorated to commercialized public service announcements complete with such buzz-words as "pro-life" and "pro-choice."

It's time to cut the emotional rubbish.

Let's step back and consider this volatile issue objectively. It only seems prudent that, to make a sound argument, one has to rely upon rationale and consider the practical advantages to each side.

With the sensitivity training behind us, I will, in my humble way, attempt to approach this debate from a purely practical vantage point -- without letting my personal beliefs get in the way. Although I hope to alienate no one, I apologize if anyone should be offended by what I say; I only hope to point out the pragmatic case that can be made.

Consider first that abortion is entirely about rights: an unborn baby's right to live versus a mother's right to choose. The question lies in ascertaining which person's rights should circumvent the other's. Just as in any other persuasive discussion, however, there is always middle ground that can be mutually agreed upon by both parties; finding it is a simple game of logic. Beginning at a point of common agreement is the first step.

There exists general agreement, for example, that human rights exist to the point that no one individual's rights interfere with those of another. When questions arise as to where to draw the line, each side presents his or her case in court and leaves it for a judge to decide.

What if the plaintiff is a pregnant woman and the defendant is an unborn baby? The pregnant woman can present her case just fine, but who will represent the fetus?

Let's fast-forward, say, ten years. Now we're dealing with two people who can speak for themselves: the mother and the adolescent. The woman has now had a whole decade to get to know her child and thus better ascertain whether or not she still wants to exercise her abortion rights.

This is clearly advantageous; the would-be mother escapes the gnawing curiosity of what the child might have been like. Furthermore, in spite of the late proliferation of Planned Parenthood and other women's clinics committed to the good cause of preventing parenthood, pesky feelings of culpability plague abortion patients. But this would be considerably lessened if women at least had direct experience in raising a child, to see whether they are cut out to be moms. If not, they can go ahead and file a complaint to get rid of the child as originally planned. At least they'd have the satisfaction of knowing they'd given motherhood the old college try before deciding it just wasn't their thing.

Of course, if it works out, great -- keep the kid. It's like a college student choosing a major; one sometimes relies upon "trial and error," along with the process of elimination, in making a sound decision.

Among the perks of post-birth abortion for the kid, the most obvious is that he would have the means to defend himself prior to death -- which is far more than he would have in a pre-birth abortion. It's simply not constitutional to put an individual to death without a proper trial, so the same should hold true for abortion situations. Just as in any other case, the judge can weigh each side to determine where lies that fine line between the mother's right to choose and the child's right to live.

Depending on his conduct, the kid may be allowed to live -- which presents the added benefit of a strong incentive for children to be on their best behavior. Falling crime rates, an end to school violence, an improvement in grades ... the possibilities are endless.

I think, too, that the realm of scientific evolutionary theory is not without its say on this issue. Darwin would be quite proud of such a concept as post-partum abortion. Unlike pre-birth abortion, it is natural-selection-friendly, and would provide an effective filter for society by sifting out the "bad eggs" before they become full-fledged adults. Indeed, there would be reason to believe that serial killers, terrorists, sadists and other such problematic people would be properly done away with before any serious crimes are committed -- in essence, much of today's societal dilemmas would be nipped in the bud.

In addition, this kind of thinking opens up myriad new doors for discussion. Why, for instance, shouldn't men, as well as women, be allowed to exercise their right to choose whether their offspring live? For that matter, it now seems silly and discriminating to restrict abortion to offspring only. Perhaps it's time to ask ourselves why people don't argue over aborting the life of other kinds of unwanted people, say, loud mothers-in-law, or unruly teenagers. And heck, why stop at humans? Annoying pets, for example, would be perfect candidates for abortion.

Notice how a practical approach to understanding abortion makes the issue more approachable and less inflammable.

It's just a modest proposal.


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## seharebo (Jul 19, 2004)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> ... If we let someone's belief that life is created upon conception make our laws about abortion, what's next? Instituted religion? Banning of divorce? It can even touch upon gay rights and adoption....


I am no religious zealot, but I believe 'life' starts at conception. Who is anyone to tell me otherwise?
[/quote]

And who is anyone else to tell someone that doesn't believe in life upon conception that they cannot get an abortion because a law was passed based off _someone else's_ religious beliefs?

The fact of the matter is that it matters not what you or I believe...it should be left up to the individual to decide...
[/quote]
Why does someone have to be religious to have an opinion as to when life starts? If the sperm enters the egg does it not count as fertilization? I believe so...and in which case doesnt life begin to form? Take a human anatomy class and see the process of it. Its rather amazing how much the body changes to cater to that "body of cells".

How about a fathers right to choose? The father had just as much invested into creating the life...why shouldnt he have the chance to opt in and say he wants the child?
[/quote]

The father does not have just as much invested. They are not the ones taking a health risk, they are not the ones destroying their bodies, and in most cases they are not going to be the ones to take care of that child. There is no law in any circumstances that should be able to force someone to do that to their body.


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