# piranha and plants



## plantbrain (Jul 3, 2007)

I've set up 3 tanks mixing plants and piranha, they tend to be a bit like Discus in terms of some aspects(high bioloading, frequent water changes, softer water etc).

One big difference I've found is that high flow rates, at least 2 hours per day improve the fish health a great deal. They eat better, they are more active, better behavior.

Changing water and lowering the tank down 50-70% and using egg crate diffusion light panels to corral the fish to one side makes pruning and trimming much eaiser. Long tweezers, and scissors also help.

I've found that most water quality issues can be traced namely to the high bioload and the presence of NH4.
Even the best filter/largest/oversized etc add to any tank has it's limits.
NO3 in merely the relatively non toxic end product.

We can add that via KNO3 or Ca(NO3)2 salts and see what affect that has one fish, plants, and algae(not much even at 80ppm for weeks on wild whimples) and we can also add NH4 if we wish as well, or progressibvely add more and more fish slowly till we hit a negative impact(disease, algae, poor behavior-althougbh we have to be very careful there, appetite, poor plant growth).

I tested to 160ppm for 3 days and used about 30 species of sensitive wild Amazonian species such as rare plecos, testras, Apistos etc. I did finally start seeing Amano shrimp dying off and stopped after about 50% died.

I took some shrimp ina small test tank,added 1 ppm of NH4, and they started to die right away.
The NH4 also induced algae when added to the tanks.
So does overloading the tank with fish and or shrimp.

This tells me that it's the food waste that's the problem and NH4.
Not NO3.

That's just correlated with overoaded high bioload tanks, it does not imply causation for poor fish health, algae, disease etc.

By isolating the nutrients suspects, we can measure and see the differences and see what real trade offs are present for plants and fish and feeding.

We can fertilize the plants well, have the fish also do well, even better as plants remove NH4 directly through assimilation and have no algae.

Not bad trade offs.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Hi Tom, good to see you here

I have been running planted tanks with piranhas for a couple years.
It would be nice to see your advice in this forum more often.

I'm very interested in what you would have to say


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## plantbrain (Jul 3, 2007)

Well, the whimples are about the only legal group allowed in CA.

I have a plan though, a client loves the illegal ones and is a LA Zoo trustee and has gotten approval for 4 of the gnarliets illegals species for a 8x6x20ft permanent display!

I liie whimples a lot and gar etc, and adding these to large planted tanks is one of my areas of interest and speciliaty.

Awesome fish deserve awesome surroundings.

Whimples are ideal I think.
They have not bothered my Amano shrimp either.
All they care about is the worm feedings

I provide a lot of current.
They eat well as a result.
Also, when pruning, you have much less issues with whimples

Got to be quick with the others or use chain mail/kevlar cutting gloves.

I use to be a meat cutter so I know how to protecdt the aquarist and design the layouts so there's less risk involved.

50 good sized man eating fish is not a risk we want to take.

The system will have large pumps that will drive the tank hard for 2-3 hours every night.
Then at 10 am, 3 pm, they will have Piranha feeding time at the LA Zoo.

This will be a huge draw for crowds.

But what good is it if they are not healthy and hungery?

Boring.

But if you exercise them good daily, they will eat and have far more vitality.
I've seen this and the client has also.

Seems obvious when you think about it but it's rarely discussed.
Rapid attacks, feeding etc rather than indifference and langid behavior is what a zoo desires.
It's playing to the myth somewhat, something I'm opposed to but it'll also help educate folks when they are there and fascinate.

That's a worthwhile trade off as these fish will be housed in an ideal environment, unlike say a Killer whale in a small tub.

That's the other thing, housing fish in the appropriate sized tank is a wise choice.

Also, given the high bioload and feeding we do for such fish, large water changes are a good mix with plants, you can use EI dosing and never need to test.

Adding some hard plumb drain and fill lines and you no longer need to do water changes, and setting the drain line up to back flush the canister filter when doing the water changes also eliminates the filter cleaning.

Put the grey matter to use and you can have a nice looking tank without much work.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## delevan (Mar 18, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Hi Tom, good to see you here
> 
> I have been running planted tanks with piranhas for a couple years.
> It would be nice to see your advice in this forum more often.
> ...


i second that........


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

TOM! hey man good to see you here. We def can use more knowledgeable ppl in these parts. And they don't come much more then you. 
Very good. 
I don't keep P's but I do have some aggressives in my 75 planted.

Gnarly illegals ehh? i'm guessin were talking Channas?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> Got to be quick with the others or use chain mail/kevlar cutting gloves.











Ain't that the truth

I agree, whimples are fantastic fish..

Great to hear that you have a display over at the zoo!

Hey Tom, by any chance, I was wondering if you could give me a quick scaping idea for a 1.5wpg whimple tank.. *please?*

I have been basically doing the EI method of dosing, and large weekly water changes (over 50%) since the beginning after reading a lot of your advice. Thanks again BTW..
It works very well, I must say.
But the 2-3hr a day current blast is an excellent idea, and I must try it for my next tank..
I can't wait actually









It's a 75g. I'm moving at the end of august, so I'm re-doing my tanks..









I want to go for more of a natural look, with fewer spiecies of plants this time.


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## plantbrain (Jul 3, 2007)

I'd suggets sticking with a pair of T5 2x54w.
That's great for a 75 gal tank.

The scape:

You can build and mound a pile of driftwood in the back 1/3 of the tank.

At least 2/3rd the height of the tank.
Or you can glue the darker 1/2" cork tiles to the rear of the tank.

Attach Narrow leaf java fern and Anubias/Bolbitus to this, moss to the lower reaches, Xmas moss is very good.

All you use is plain white sand, ala Rio *****.
While java Anubias bolbitus are non native the Xmas moss is a native of the region.
But these other non natives still look nice and fill in species we cannot get or are not nearly as suitable to horticulture.

Same deal in your yard/landscaping.
Simple, looks good.
Leaves about the front 1/2 as a nice swimming space, easy cleaning of substrate where the food is added etc and no pruning of a nice white sand.

You can do 2x a week, 40% or a weekly 50-70% water change.
Dose :

Tropica master grow: 3x a week: 10mls
KNO3: 1/2 teaspoon 2x a week
KH2PO4 1/8th teaspoon 2x a week
GH booster 1/2 teaspoon once a week after water change.
That's about it.

Pack the tank and wood with plants and keep the lights back there and then as the plants grow out well, move it forward some.

Since you have lower light, using about 1/2 EI is about right.
Add CO2 mist to grow these plants very well.
Add Excel if you prefer and add it if you see any algae.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

Hi Tom,
WELCOME
It's great to see you here.
The planted tank for piranha adds so much to the hobby.
Pete


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## plantbrain (Jul 3, 2007)

Well, what is each person's goal?

That is where it all starts.
There are many attributes that plants add to a tank and they need not be that tough.
The goal often is to reduce labor, cost and and increase aesthetics.

You cn use plant filters, eg peace lilies are easy to grow and require little light and can be placed in a DIY type of plant wet/dry filter.

Does not matter what you have in the main tank, the plants can still do some serious filtering.
A layer of water sprite will certainly make the the fish less skittish, they like lower lighting etc, the plants need no gravel special ferts, high light(they are floating at the surface right under the lights) and CO2, (again, they are floating and exposed etc to the air).

So even modest low tech utilitarian refugium style marine reef approaches can be done.
Non CO2 can work, but few fish only keepers with larger fish that are well fed can do this without minimal stocking levels, a trade off few here would care to accept!

Of course, the plant scapers generally have few fish in their tanks and think more fish are "distracting".
So each group has a goal.

I like lots of fish and plants and well laid out scape.
I like entertainment for the eyes, not a few fish for max impact from a distance for that one front view scape picture that will win a contest.

I like my fish as much as my gardening.
I think more would come to the planted side if they knew better what the options are using plants as I know most love their fish and do not realish the notion of leaving their fish behind to pursue plants.

Why not have your cake and eat it too?
That's been my arguement.

However, I am anal about putting a nice stock level in the appropriate sized tank for the life of the fish!!

Red tail cats in 75 gal tank?
Nope, nor a pack of 20 full size reds in a 180.
You need a 500 gallon.

They behave radically different, so do most fish if you give them more room.
I've seen it.

Then folks have issues that they want solved that they created themselves

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I am far from a plant guy...but I do have some very large swords in a couple of my tanks....the huge sword in my elongatus tank keeps my nitrates at basically zero. The main issue I have is the constant pruning the fish do with these plants...clogging up the filter intakes with plant clippings. Not only does it make the plant look bad...but it is a pain.

Is this an issue you have had with the species you have kept with plants...Im speaking about piranha species? I get the same thing in my geryi tank. Do you have an idea if this is the kind of plant....or species of fish...that would be the main cause of this?


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## plantbrain (Jul 3, 2007)

These larger fish are destructive, it's not merely a piranha issue, any large fish that bolts from one side to the other, is a problem for a lot of plants.

So, you can approach it and use java fern, narrow leaf in particular is very nice on wood.
Or Anubias, Xmas moss, Bolbitus etc.

Any floating plants are also a good item.

Now can you have a nice looking planted tank + the layout you want and the larger fish?
No, that is trade off you accept with larger active fish.

Alan, one of our founder club members in SFBAAPS along with myself, resolved his planted tank + Fire eels, these are as big as large man's arm, he has 3 in a 185 gal tank with a dozen other huge fish, used driftwood+Java fern+ automated water changes(set for daily 30%) to offset the high bioloading and feeding he does.

The automated water change killed off all the BBA he had also. BBA seems to common in overloaded tanks as well as CO2 variable tanks, generally, variable poor CO2 levels seems induce it.

This tank is not a CO2 enriched tank and still had it until we added the automated water changer.
They are quite easy to install and once in place, folks ask themselves "why didn't they think of this years ago?"

He does nothing for water changing.
You can semi automate like myself also.
Turn a valve to drain however far I want, turn another to refill.
I never lug hoses out, touch a bucket other than for tossing prunings/cuttings in.

The high loading in piranha tanks makes them ideal for automated or semi automated water changes.
Adding a plant filter outside the tank also allows the swords to grow to monsters hydroponically and still reap the benefits of plant nutrient export, peace lilies are also very effective.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I actually just put in a water change system in a few of my tanks. The geryi tank has always suffered from higher nitrates and lots of algea...but in the few weeks I have had this system running...the algae is almost nonexistent..and the nitrates are under 10ppm. The tank is a 180 and I am changing about 25 gallons a day. It is working like a charm. As far as the plants...these fish seem to chew on them..taking large bites out of the sword. I do have java ferns in the tank that are totally left alone...but I didnt know if that was because they are more of a bottom plant then the sword..which has leaves that reach the top of the tank...24" tall.

Like I said...Im far from a plant guy....and I appreciate your input


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## plantbrain (Jul 3, 2007)

I think you'd do better with long grassy Crypts.
C spiralis is easy to grow and handles high current.
C balansae also can act like a narrow leaf sword plant.
Other broad leaf Crypts also work well.

As you have seen, with auto or modified plumbing, daily water changes turns a tank around.
That being settled, all you have to do is fine a scape and plant selection that does not get beaten up.
Each tank and goal is going to be different and some trial and error will be needed.

But these are attainable.
I am a big fan of attaching plants to wood and using that with white sand as a nice scape. Mos larger fish uproot things unless you place rocks in critical spots etc.

A nice mound of wood, wall of wood, or a cork bark or cork tile backing allows you to plant the entire thing.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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