# anyone keep piranha outside during the summer months??



## weerhom (Jan 12, 2007)

Just wondering if anyone stocks their koi pond with REAL fish in the summer??? A koi pond seems so lame. Piranha pond would be way cooler. Look out thirsty birds!!!


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## Piranha Guru (Nov 24, 2005)

weerhom said:


> Just wondering if anyone stocks their koi pond with REAL fish in the summer??? A koi pond seems so lame. Piranha pond would be way cooler. Look out thirsty birds!!!


I gave my solo red to my anatomy teacher when I went away to college. He kept it in his frog pond for at least one summer (I think 2) and it cleaned out all the tadpoles. It died though when he brought it back in to school one fall...probably from an uncycled tank.


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

I would love to, but even R.I. summer nights get too chilly.


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

I knew a fellow in a warmer state that had a nice pond of cariba.


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## weerhom (Jan 12, 2007)

oh hell ya!


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## sprfunk (Dec 22, 2005)

Personally I would never do that. Although it looks really cool, and seems like it would give your P's a great home I hope that idea is trashed. If a local paper/news company finds out about that consider legalized P keeping







. After snakeheads reproducing in North American lakes and rivers the government is just looking for an excuse to ban P's on the Federal level. Bad Bad idea. Not to mention all of the animals that eat fish out of ponds. All kinds of birds and racoons, its not safe. For the sake of the hobby keep your P's indoors.


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

Snakeheads were banned for a reason. They can live and thrive in colder waters. Piranha will never get banned for somebody keeping them in an outdoor pond, they might get banned for people dumping PACUS and scientists calling them piranha


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## wpviper (Jun 25, 2007)

^ that pond is sweet I live at home I cant dig a pond or I would and I would try to heat it in winter on another note are Piranha legal in navada?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

The only issue I see here (beside the obvious of the fish being outdoors), is that disease and parasites will thrive in that outdoor pond. Snails, birds, snakes etc., are just a few that come to mind. Well known that snails carry most of the problems. If per chance the fish breed, you then run into other problems. If a child or a pet gets in there by accident and gets bit, then you get into legal issues. Just not worth all the problems this type of pond will create.


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## wpviper (Jun 25, 2007)

the fish came from outside!!!!!!!!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> wpviper Posted Today, 02:53 PM
> the fish came from outside!!!!!!!!


What's your point between natural habitat and artificial?


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## weerhom (Jan 12, 2007)

Frank....what is your point about not a good idea keeping the fish outside??? kids and fish can get into fish tanks also. Piranha are an animal that need to be kept responsibly. If you were to keep them outdoors...of course you should take precautions.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> weerhom Posted Today, 04:13 PM
> Frank....what is your point about not a good idea keeping the fish outside??? kids and fish can get into fish tanks also. *Piranha are an animal that need to be kept responsibly. *If you were to keep them outdoors...of course you should take precautions.


Being kept in an outdoor pond man-made or otherwise is not a natural setting. 1. It is illegal. 2. you run the risk of unintentional injuries to humans. 3. This type of ideas are what drives conservationist to ban piranhas.

In the aquarium, it is a closed system with a top to prevent access if secured properly. My children and grandchildren have never attempted to get into any of my fishtanks because they are properly educated. However, if you live in a neighborhood and have an outdoor pond with piranhas, I can nearly guarantee, some child or teenager will try to investigate if its true or not. Then you run a huge risk either way. Vast difference between the two. You can agree or disagree. But I believe my view of this is far more accurate than your own on keeping piranhas.


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## wpviper (Jun 25, 2007)

I would say that the pond in the pic above is a lot more natural then any tank and you are right you would need to deal with the fact of where you live but just haveing a pond in your back yard can cause a problem small children dont need piranha to hurt themself they could drown with no fish. I dont think piranha is that much more of a threat then koi I guess if you wanted to leave your arm in the tank long enuff for the fish to get use to you and see if your food you could but i dont think thats going to happen to many time if you get that [email protected] I dont think he would keep it in there for more then one bite.


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

I see Hastatus' point.


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

theres too many legal issues to deal with if you have ur P's outside. Simply not worth it, although it would be neat.


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## wpviper (Jun 25, 2007)

what legal issues?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> wpviper Posted Today, 10:34 AM
> what legal issues?


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

i was planning on buying a 1000 gallon stock tank this summer to put in my garage and use as a pygo pond, but i had to put the plans on hold... maybe its time to revisit that plan


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

> I believe my view of this is far more accurate than your own on keeping piranhas


Thank you frank i agree also


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## weerhom (Jan 12, 2007)

ya. that would be some good info. funny, no legal issues if they were any other fish besides piranha, and maybe an electric eel.lol guy had pool with wallago attu and it ate the neighbors kid.

Being a piranha owner is a big responsibility!

SOME PEOPLE might live in the country with lots of land and they might do something like this. Of course it is not recommended to do this in the city.


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## Demon Darko (Jan 28, 2007)

I wonder if there are any actual legalities involved.


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## sprfunk (Dec 22, 2005)

wpviper said:


> I would say that the pond in the pic above is a lot more natural then any tank and you are right you would need to deal with the fact of where you live but just haveing a pond in your back yard can cause a problem small children dont need piranha to hurt themself they could drown with no fish. I dont think piranha is that much more of a threat then koi I guess if you wanted to leave your arm in the tank long enuff for the fish to get use to you and see if your food you could but i dont think thats going to happen to many time if you get that [email protected] I dont think he would keep it in there for more then one bite.


Viper your missing the point. Yes the pond setting may be more natural then a most tank setups. But no matter how natural it seems to look, UNLESS THE FISH IS NATIVE TO THE AREA THAT POND IS LOCATED IN IT IS NOT NATURAL TO THE SURROUNDING ENVIRONMENT AND THEREFORE A THREAT TO THE NATURAL HABITAT. 
And why do P's get banned when Pacus are found living in unnatural waters? Because a breeding community of P's could mean trouble to a habitat, any habitat they are not natural to, and people miss ID pacus as Ps, and therefor P's are banned. So if we get that many problems from a misidentified fish just think about what would happen if reporters would actually find P's living in an outdoor pond.

Now again, the point is that P's in a pond would not be more of a hazard then the pond itself... Not what happens if a child falls in this pond and drowns. Your P's will start to eat the child, and then P's get blamed for killing the child.
Or how about the child drowns and they find P's in the pond, Did the P's scare the child to death.


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## sprfunk (Dec 22, 2005)

O and yes there are "legalities" involved in keeping Non-indigenous species in outdoors, look it up.


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## weerhom (Jan 12, 2007)

so koi and goldfish are against the law?????


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

Weerhom your grabbin for straws here, it isnt the point of being against the law but what would happen to our great hobby if something were to, whether it be the neighbors toddler or someones dog that accidentally fell in.


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## notaverage (Sep 10, 2005)

Why is it illegal?

I thought of building a pond...but indoors in my basement....
Now that I think about it..it would not be too wise being I have a 8 month old baby...Oh well.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> weerhom Posted Today, 06:40 AM
> so koi and goldfish are against the law?????


You were asked to check the State and Federal Laws. Koi and Goldfish are seen as pet/pond fish. Take them out of the man-made pond and release into wild then you have problem several federal and state laws. Put piranhas in an outside pond then you have created a public panic/menace and that wil be enough to cause jail and fine. So if that doesn't make sense to you, then I smell a troll.


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## wpviper (Jun 25, 2007)

ok thats bs there is no way you can get charged with panic/menace from having your piranha outside I work first hand with the columbus police department and that is total BS!!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> wpviper Posted Today, 01:25 PM
> ok thats bs there is no way you can get charged with panic/menace from having your piranha outside I work first hand with the columbus police department and that is total BS!!


Really? By all means try it then. Let me know how it goes with the feds and the Lacy act.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

For those interested, read this:



> The Lacey Act (pdf) is a law that dates back to the early 1900's and is one of the oldest wildlife related laws on the books. Under the Lacey Act, the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to regulate the importation and transport of species, including offspring and eggs, *determined to be injurious to the health and welfare of humans,* the interests of agriculture, horticulture or forestry, and the welfare and survival of wildlife resources of the U.S. Wild mammals, wild birds, fish, mollusks, crustaceans, amphibians, and reptiles are the only organisms that can be added to the injurious wildlife list. http://www.fws.gov/contaminants/ANS/ANSInjurious.cfm


For those that have forgotten Snakeheads, they were banned in 2002. Piranhas are presently being considered for prohibited, injurious wildlife. All it takes is one moron to put their fish in an outdoor pond and the media will raise a stink as well as the feds. Still think its BS?


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## weerhom (Jan 12, 2007)

babe, im not the only one grabbin for straws here. Seems to be a few people interested in this topic. Best thing to do here children is state your opinions and enjoy the forum. This is what I believe to be my thread, that I started, and to raise a stink about a simple question is unnecessary.


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

too many legality issues to deal with for it to even be worth while... I think if you really want a pond of P's....Put it in an enclosed area in ur basement or make a shed of some sort so it's enclosed and away from the public eye.


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

No Stink here Weerhom just







I just cant believe you would put koi in the same boat as piranha "Figuratively Speaking"


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I take any issue that threatens the ability to keep piranhas legal to heart. I fought to long and hard in Oregon to make them available to hobbyists. Any person that threatens this hobby is right in my bullseye. They belong either in natural habitat or in your aquarium. Not in some outdoor pond.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Sorry frank but I don't think it would threaten the legallity here.. There is no way any piranha could survive in the winter months it is just way too cold.

I am planning on diggin a pond this spring and putting my piraya in them after the last frost (around may first).. I want to see if the hard rain with days sometimes weaks of non stop heat will trigger a spawning.

They can't get away and find their way to the lake or any other body of water.. And I doubt my neighbours will even know what's in the pond I plan on digging it pretty deep.

I don't see the big deal.

No offence meant at all sir just voicing my opinion


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## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer (Aug 22, 2006)

I would be too worried about losing the pirayas to some disease or pest trigga to even try that. I would try it with a few common old RBs though just for fun.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

I will be filtering the tank.. People keep thousand dollar koi in ponds.. I'm sure the piraya will be fine.


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## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer (Aug 22, 2006)

True, you should also put a net over the pond so no raccoon or bird can snatch up the pirayas.


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## wpviper (Jun 25, 2007)

yes racoons and if you live by a river or something watch out for storks and cranes but you should be ok if the pond is deep and piranha are smart fish they sould run from somthing trying to eat them PS. make a new thread with pics. when you start


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Yeah I will I'll start as soon as it stops snowing so late march-early to mid April look out for it.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> *Sorry frank but I don't think it would threaten the legallity here.. *There is no way any piranha could survive in the winter months it is just way too cold.
> 
> I am planning on diggin a pond this spring and putting my piraya in them after the last frost (around may first).. I want to see if the hard rain with days sometimes weaks of non stop heat will trigger a spawning.
> 
> ...


Make a deal with you. Since you are in Canada and don't think it will effect the legality there, by all means, PM me your physical address and I'll put it to the test with Canadian authorities. Of course, we'll do this after you build you pond and you have it running. Then you can give us step by step what happens to you in your country.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

I actually asked my uncle who is a cop and he said as long as they are in an enclosed space with no possible escape routes that it would be no big deal. It really isn't it's just like keeping any other fish in a pond.. Except I bring them in come winter

There are no laws saying what can and can't be kept in a pond on your personal property so I am breaking no rules here


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Trigga Posted Today, 05:35 PM
> I actually asked my uncle who is a cop and he said as long as they are in an enclosed space with no possible escape routes that it would be no big deal. It really isn't it's just like keeping any other fish in a pond.. Except I bring them in come winter
> 
> There are no laws saying what can and can't be kept in a pond on your personal property so I am breaking no rules here
> ...


Its all opinions remember?







You say there are no laws, I say that Canadian Fish & Wildlife would see it differently. Which I why I asked you to PM your address and we'd put it to the test. I think that's reasonable since you now stating your uncle (the cop) thinks it no big deal. Then if that is all true, you have nothing to worry about or your uncle since he's giving you legal advice that nothing will come from it.


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## xeloR (Jan 2, 2009)

Isn’t there a big difference between police and fish n game? I’ve never understood ponds- Id much rather have my fish in plain view right in my house- especially when I consider how much money is invested in them. But then again I have seen some badass Koi ponds.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > Trigga Posted Today, 05:35 PM
> > I actually asked my uncle who is a cop and he said as long as they are in an enclosed space with no possible escape routes that it would be no big deal. It really isn't it's just like keeping any other fish in a pond.. Except I bring them in come winter
> >
> > There are no laws saying what can and can't be kept in a pond on your personal property so I am breaking no rules here
> ...


I will contact them myself and let you know what they say. I'll shoot them an email tommorow or give them a call.


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## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

Just in case you're in a state that is warm all year round. Fish CAN BE transplanted from one pond to another, without having any connections to any other bodies of water. I've found small minnows swimming in my pool cover, when I go to open it in the spring. If your P's happen to spawn, the eggs can be transplanted by attaching themselves to the feathers of birds that happen to be feeding in that body of water. It's no joke! In a state where the water freezes in the winter, the adults and fry would surely die, but in a state that is warm enough to house your P's outside all year, you're taking a chance of causing some serious issues, and possibly getting P's to be banned all together. Sure, it would be sweet to have a pond of P's in your backyard, but is it worth getting them banned for good? All it would take, is the DNR to find a nearby pond with piranha fry in it, and say bye bye! It happened to snakeheads! Our native fish have enough threats, why add to them.

Check this sh*t out! It's right at my back door!
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&cli...arp&spell=1


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Yeah in Canada at least where I live it hits like -30 in the winter.. No way any piranha is surviving that


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

Couldn't agree with blue flame any more.


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

Ya i enjoy being able to keep my fish way to much to even chance such a thing.


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## iceh86 (Mar 14, 2009)

Blue Flame said:


> Just in case you're in a state that is warm all year round. Fish CAN BE transplanted from one pond to another, without having any connections to any other bodies of water. I've found small minnows swimming in my pool cover, when I go to open it in the spring. If your P's happen to spawn, the eggs can be transplanted by attaching themselves to the feathers of birds that happen to be feeding in that body of water. It's no joke! In a state where the water freezes in the winter, the adults and fry would surely die, but in a state that is warm enough to house your P's outside all year, you're taking a chance of causing some serious issues, and possibly getting P's to be banned all together. Sure, it would be sweet to have a pond of P's in your backyard, but is it worth getting them banned for good? All it would take, is the DNR to find a nearby pond with piranha fry in it, and say bye bye! It happened to snakeheads! Our native fish have enough threats, why add to them.
> 
> Check this sh*t out! It's right at my back door!
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&cli...arp&spell=1


x2


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## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

Well.....when snakeheads where banned, wildlife authorities now have the right to enter your house, and seize the fish. Then they kill it, and you get a healthy fine on top of it. I too, enjoy having the freedom to keep cool fish like piranhas, and couldn't imagine having to give them up. We live in a world where ignorant people look for any reason they can find, just to snatch that right away from you.

Don't f*ck with the sleeping dog, or you'll surely get bit. Let it lye, and enjoy the freedom!


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## wpviper (Jun 25, 2007)

In most of the warm states you are speaking of piranhas are already Fing baned because people put them in the water no fish forum can stop all the people from doing that where I live and where trigga lives the fish would not and could not live out doors even in the summer with out some type of heater one cold rain would kill the fish in a pond if the heater where to go out it just dosent get that warm for that long to raise the water temp around here that is why there is no ban around here the fish just could not live around here


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

still dont make it right


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## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

You know they won't survive, and I know it, but let it leak out to the public and media, that you're housing P's in an outdoor pond, and watch all hell break loose. The general public knows nothing about any of the requirements needed to house P's (temp, water quality, feeding). All they will know, is you're keeping them in a pond, and that's enough to start the sh*t flying. Hell.....wildlife authorities can't even tell the difference between a pacu and a piranha, and most people don't know a piranha will flee instead of attacking you either. 9 out of 10 people fear them like spiders, and would rather see them banned, than have them available for the pet trade. I think we all know P's could live outside in some states, but this discussion is now more about the RISK it can cause, and the risk is not being smart, and getting them banned.


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

All it would take to have piranha banned in a city is to have a pond and a child or animal gets hurt and 
Local NEWs station to run with it. Local laws are the ones that will prevent piranha sales and ownership in your city due to
stupidity of just a couple people. The media feeding naïve viewers the right headlines would make it very possible.


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## sprfunk (Dec 22, 2005)

Whats funny about this and your argument is that some states have regulations against P's because of this exact issue. Washington for instance, no chance of wintering, and they are banned. Why? People found pacus, feared it was a P and that they could breed and it was a countdown to ban. If people find P's in outside waterways in summer or winter its not good for the hobby, and leads to bans. Plain and simple. If you do decide to do this, please think about what is best for the hobby and don't show it, or talk about it. We don't need to encourage this to new members.

In fact I had to idea of a pond in a basement that was fed from rainwater through a catch and piped in, and overflowed right to the curb. I chose to not do this just in case they laid eggs and the eggs found there way out, or missed fry could get out. Its just not worth it.


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## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

Everyone's gonna do what they want, but a big pond just seems kinda uncontrollable to me. For one thing, you'll rarely see the fish. Two, good luck catching them to bring back in for the winter, and 3, even if they did spawn, most of the fry will be eaten by birds, crayfish, insects, frogs, and other fish. I just think a tank is win win no matter how you look at it. It's better for viewing, feeding, health, and protecting the hobby.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Wow didn't think people would care so much about keeping piranhas In a damn pond... Everyone on my street mind my damn business, a house a few doors down has a pond and the previous owner kept and kept frontosa in the summer months nobody said anything. It's not like anyone will see what's in there anyway.. There will floating plants and some sort of plant in the actual pond itself for them to use as nesting material.

As for any small child.. Unless it was a small child that snuck into my backyard to rob my house.. I don't think anyone is getting in there we have like 10 foot fences and it's not even worth trying to hop unless you aren't trying to be noticed ... They are only gonna be there for three months.. If they don't breed they won't go back in.. I agree seeing fish in a tank is much more appealing.

This is Canada guys THEY CANNOT survive here without a heater wpviper said it.. All it takes if the EXTREMELY unlikely even that an egg latches on to a bird somehow and that immediately flys to a natural body of water water and the egg SOMEHOW hatches (I can't even believe this was suggested







) is a cold night and the thing is dead. Not to mention any bird that sits in that water is probably dead anyways.

As for catching them to bring them back for the winter.. For the fry this is easy.. As they come to the shallow
water and I will net them as I see them.

For the larger ones... I'm sure there is a way.. People bring
in koi in the winter when their pond is not deep enough... End of august is usually very very warm
if anything I will slowly pump the water out day by day and net them when it's shallow
enough to see them.

What else...
/reads past replies

To the guy that said this will encourage other members to do it... Your absolutely right man that's exactly how I got the idea.. Of another member here who actualy bred his reds in a pond... I think if this works with piraya it can in theory work with other rare and endangered fish and maybe cut down on the impact fishing these things in the wild is having. Not to mention make it a lot cheaper for people who couldn't afford fish like piraya before to keep the beautiful fish (I know it's not much to us but people
are amazed when I tell them I paid 350$ for 5 fish).

Listen guys I understand there is a worry here about them getting banned but this will be a very enclosed setup that will be very
closely monitored. I'm extremely passionate about keeping piranha just like you guys and would
never do something I thought would get them taken away from me.


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## TheWayThingsR (Jan 4, 2007)

I look at owning any animal as a privilege, not by any means a right. No matter what everybody "thinks" on the topic, I wouldnt want somebody ruining that privilege. Even if there arent specific laws in your area, that doesnt mean the authorities wont try to find a way around that.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Trigga Posted Today, 10:50 PM
> Wow didn't think people would care so much about keeping piranhas In a damn pond... Everyone on my street mind my damn business, a house a few doors down has a pond and the previous owner kept and kept frontosa in the summer months nobody said anything. It's not like anyone will see what's in there anyway.. There will floating plants and some sort of plant in the actual pond itself for them to use as nesting material.
> 
> As for any small child.. Unless it was a small child that snuck into my backyard to rob my house.. I don't think anyone is getting in there we have like 10 foot fences and it's not even worth trying to hop unless you aren't trying to be noticed ... They are only gonna be there for three months.. If they don't breed they won't go back in.. I agree seeing fish in a tank is much more appealing.
> ...


Incredible.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Care to elaborate sir?

I think I have provided a proper rebuttle to everyones issues with my idea.... Tommorow I will email fish and wildlife and I guarentee they will have no problems.. No one can tell me I can't keep a perfectly legal fish in a pond on my own private property.

There are absolutely no restrictions on them except not releasing them to the wild which I would never do.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Trigga Posted Yesterday, 11:37 PM
> Care to elaborate sir?


Absolutely I will elaborate. You state:

1) _I'm extremely passionate about keeping piranha just like you guys_

Being passionate is a good thing, but taking that passion and putting the fish into a situation that can be detrmental to their health, already mentioned ie; disease, parasite & predation, is not a responsible action in my opinion. In the aquarium, you control its life. In a pond you've given up much of the control to conditions that put the fish at risk.

2) _and would never do something I thought would get them taken away from me. _

You contradict yourself. I'll look foward to seeing what the Canadian fish & wildlife have to say about constructing an outdoor pond with piranhas. You might be right and they may not care at all "in Canada".

Please post your Email and who you sent it too & their reply.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

First of all did you read the whole thing? I will not be keeping them just in a hole in the ground exposed to the elements.. I will be keeping them in aheated pond with plenty of plants and probably some fast breeding fish for them to snack on between feedings. I may even add a filter although I don't think I will need one if it rains as much as it did last summer.

I sent this to fish and wildlife at This site


> I plan on building a pond this summer in my backyard. I plan on putting my 5 piranha in the pond in order to see if the hard rains along the days sometimes weeks of heat will trigger a spawning as this species is yet to be bred in captivity. I am a responsible fish keeper which is why I am asking you this before I go ahead with my plans and will never release them into the natural water systems. I am wondering if there are any legality issues regarding this or if I am fine.
> 
> Appreciate your time


I'm not going to post my email address for everyone to see frank but if you need it so badly I will be happy to give it to you when I recieve the reply.


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

I'm also curious to see as what they would have to say on it...I don't think it'd fly jus for the simple fact that the eggs and fry can be carried away by other avian creatures and what not and can be dropped into lakes and streams.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

the_w8 said:


> I'm also curious to see as what they would have to say on it...I don't think it'd fly jus for the simple fact that the eggs and fry can be carried away by other avian creatures and what not and can be dropped into lakes and streams.


Come on dude are you serous? It's not like the eggs
are going to float man and they're not gonna be just out in a bare pond... And it's an egg man if it that bird stops to eat a f*cking pinecone or something and that egg gets too dry it's dead. It will never happen.. Plus the water is so polluted in lake Ontario that it will never even hatch


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

Theres always the possibility...you never know...Like blue flame mentioned when he took the tarp off his pond/pool he had minnows on it...that jus don't happen for no reason...They get there by high waters due to rain/washout or by other predators...Bottom line is it's possible...


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Minnows and piranha are totally different though dude.. They are naturally accustomed to the cold water.. Piranha are not hence the heated pond


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Trigga: Don't get upset so fast. You made a statement/opinion, now some of us are writing ours that your statement/opinion/idea is wrong headed. This flies in the face of responsible fish keeping. That is my opinion and my stance when you put a fish in an area where it doesn't belong. Certain ornamental fish are allowed (note the word) because they are historically been used for ponds. On the otherhand, these fish have also become an invasive species whether intentional or not. While it is true piranha are not coldwater fish, there are possible areas in Canada (don't know enough about Canada, just U.S.) where they might be established (warm spirngs etc. or man-made electical facilites where water is warmer). Can a bird migrate a piranha egg? Yes. Are the chances great it will establish a population? Depends on where the bird lands and if the conditions are right. In other words, your playing Russian Roulette with everyone's ability/legality to keep piranhas in the home aquarium. Again, that's just my opinion.


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## philbert (Mar 8, 2007)

the whole snakehead arguement is null bc they found a guy that released them in VA. there is a documentary about it. the egg thing i guess is a valid arguemnt, but is probably unlikely unless you are keeping reds or macs seeing as how other Ps except at that one zoo in the 70s that rhoms spawned have not been bread in home aquarium.

for the record i think ponds are kinda dumb. especially for piranha.

were possibly in canada would the waters stay warm enough for Ps?


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## cobrafox46 (Jun 2, 2008)

I am curious to see what the fish and wildlife department says. I really do not care if someone makes a small pond. There are more than likey not going to be to many birds landing on a 600 gallon pond or so. Sorry but I would do it if I had the time and was really into P's. It would be the best way of getting them to breed in captivity.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> how other Ps except at that one zoo in the 70s that rhoms spawned have not been bread in home aquarium.


Actually you are misinformed. Serrasalmus rhombeus established a viable population in Florida in a man-made pond that was abandoned. As for Canada, as I stated I'm not familiar enough about the terrain in Canada to say yes or no a population could be created. What I do know is that piranha have been captured in the Great Lakes (P. nattereri) during winter and it was alive.

Here is a small list of hot springs which are in the neighborhood of piranha requirements for population and breeding: http://www.bchotsprings.com/


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Talked to the biologist and he said it shouldn't be a problem because my area is not prone to flooding but he took my name and number since I asked if it was legal and he said he would have wildlife enforcement call me.

Frank exactly I think in this case (unlike every other) I am a bit more knowledgable about canada's water ways and there is nothing even close to a hot water spring or any place where the water stays warm in southern Ontario. They will not survive if a bird somehow transfers the eggs.. By winter they will be dead if they even hatch in lake ontarios polluted ass waters.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Frank exactly I think in this case (unlike every other) I am a bit more knowledgable about canada's water ways and there is nothing even close to a hot water spring or any place where the water stays warm in southern Ontario. They will not survive if a bird somehow transfers the eggs.. By winter they will be dead if they even hatch in lake ontarios polluted ass waters.


i agree that they likely will be dead by winter. Just remember when that Fish & Wildlife person calls, they will likely be telling you about global warming and the trend that Canadian waters will be warming up. Agree or disagree, reality is, its just one more nail in the coffin of piranha possession. Again, that's me looking into the future of this hobby.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

I'm hoping that captive bred piraya will be a bit easier to breed and hope they can do it indoors.. If not the first generation hopefully the 2nd or 3rd


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## philbert (Mar 8, 2007)

hastatus said:


> > how other Ps except at that one zoo in the 70s that rhoms spawned have not been bread in home aquarium.
> 
> 
> Actually you are misinformed. Serrasalmus rhombeus established a viable population in Florida in a man-made pond that was abandoned. As for Canada, as I stated I'm not familiar enough about the terrain in Canada to say yes or no a population could be created. What I do know is that piranha have been captured in the Great Lakes (P. nattereri) during winter and it was alive.
> ...


How am i miss informed? that was what i was referring to about rhom's breeding. i thought it was a closed zoo. i now see it was an amusement park. anyways. do you know of any writings or pics of the piranha found in the great lakes during winter. i grew up about 500 yards from lake ontario now live near lake erie and i have never heard about this and i would really like to read more on it.


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

i know by my hometown right by the YMCA they caught a red belly piranha about 15 years. It was right in the heat of summer. I seen the pic a couple of years ago, but don't remember the site and it was a RB for sure. They later found out that some asain fella released about 10-15 red bellies about 8-10" in the river jus downstream. Thats the sh*t that pisses me off.


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## TheWayThingsR (Jan 4, 2007)

Atleast if anything legally comes of Trigga's experiment, it will hopefully only effect possession in Canada. Granted it's bad for business all around, but personally I'd rather have somebody in a different country get made example of, if anything comes of it.


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## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer (Aug 22, 2006)

99 percent sure nothing will happen to Trigga.

45 percent sure something will happen to his Ps, for example what if there is something in the rain water or run off from the rain water. Never know man i wouldn't want to lose 4 pirayas.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

I'm going to be digging it deep and over about 5 inches of rock so that it's not
directly on ground level.. Lay the tarp.. Maybe even two just to ensure no run off can get in.. Also
I'll be planting around the pond reeds and other plants.

I will spare no expense in making sure my piraya are as safe as can be.


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

I'm going to laugh when a blue heron or a big stork eats your p's, it will serve you right. And yeah they do eat fish that big !


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Yeah it will serve me right, the horrible human being I am keeping a perfectly legally fish in a pretty large heated pond so that they have a chance at breeding and make piraya a lot more accessible and cheaper for people around me at least.


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## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer (Aug 22, 2006)

Make sure you go through with it man, it would be an awesome thread. Ponds ftw!


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## cobrafox46 (Jun 2, 2008)

Ba20 said:


> I'm going to laugh when a blue heron or a big stork eats your p's, it will serve you right. And yeah they do eat fish that big !


Seriously....why you have to be a tool?.....if you have nothing sensible to add STFU! Your comment would be funny if we were all in the 3rd grade but since we are all adults on the site it is really lame and ignorant.


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## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer (Aug 22, 2006)

It's funny because we all know storks will be delivering babies at the time.

Seriously if he makes it deep or if he has a pond net over it, not bird will be able to get it.


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

3rd grade huh ? you mean like your GI Joe Post name or your retarded cartoon avatar ? You have alot of room to talk. STFU

Anyways back to the topic at hand why cant you build one indoors


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Because I don't want a pond in my damn house.. It's that simple


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## cobrafox46 (Jun 2, 2008)

Ba20 said:


> 3rd grade huh ? you mean like your GI Joe Post name or your retarded cartoon avatar ? You have alot of room to talk. STFU


Great comeback genius.......you just proved my point in the above post.


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

You make no sense at all, When you can afford a Piranha thats more expensive than a Mac then come talk to me. Wow


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## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer (Aug 22, 2006)

Lol your better than him now because your piranhas are more expensive?


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## cobrafox46 (Jun 2, 2008)

Ba20 said:


> You make no sense at all, When you can afford a Piranha thats more expensive than a Mac then come talk to me. Wow


What? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! There is nothing I can even say to that comment to make it look any more ignorant.....it speaks for itself! WOW is right! LOLOLOL!!


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

You are taking it wrong this topic is about how irresponsible it is to keep piranha's outside and how it can possibly jeopardize the future of being able to own them. I dont need some punk kid telling me im a tool or a 3rd grader b/c i state that trigger could loose his prized fish to a bird

Ive been around here since 2003 ive seen kids like him come and go.


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## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer (Aug 22, 2006)

Hes 5 years older than you.


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## cobrafox46 (Jun 2, 2008)

So since you have been a member since 03 makes you better than everyone?......well you think so for some reason. I have been on this board about everyday for the past year and a half and did not start seeing you poke around till last week or so. Punk kid......you are the one coming off as the punk kid and your comments verify that. Anyways it is impossible to argue with idiots......been there, tried that, never get anywhere. Sorry for fukking your thread up a bit Trigga. Proceed


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## Blue Flame (Jan 16, 2006)

Come on guys.....


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

Right on Blue ill let it go.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

Ba20 said:


>


that pond looks great, is that yours?

edit: nevermind, i found that website...


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

No sir i did a search and came across this. hope'd it might show a better alternative


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Ba20 said:


> You are taking it wrong this topic is about how irresponsible it is to keep piranha's outside and how it can possibly jeopardize the future of being able to own them. I dont need some punk kid telling me im a tool or a 3rd grader b/c i state that trigger could loose his prized fish to a bird
> 
> Ive been around here since 2003 ive seen kids like him come and go.


 wow dude you've seen kids like me come and go?

I seriously doubt that


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

No trigger that wasnt aimed at you sorry bud.

On a serious note what are you going to do to deter birds


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Dude your telling me sh*t that's been mentioned in this thread already by more than one person... I will guarentee a bird WILL not fly in and eat my damn fish, the police will not do Jack sh*t because they cannot charge me for keeping a perfectly legal fish on my own property completely isolated from any other body of water.

It's happening no matter what some guy who's fish cost more than a mac thinks. Unless the wildlife enforcement tells me I will have my fish taken away, this is going to happen and when it does please spare me your bullshit


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## TheWayThingsR (Jan 4, 2007)

Ba20, you're a troll. Civilized discussion here. you GTFO


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

didn't see your edit dude so I aplogize for that but my above post remains true to you and anyone else that does not have anything new to say.


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

you know "thewaythingsare" i dont see how you can say



> I wouldnt want somebody ruining that privilege


That privilege being able to own piranha's could be taken away if something were to happen even though the chance is low. I dont understand how you can call me a troll or anyone else can call me out, I am just standing up for what i believe is right and the privilege to keep my fish.


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## TheWayThingsR (Jan 4, 2007)

Ba20 said:


> you know "thewaythingsare" i dont see how you can say
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its tough to debate what you said when you edited your post after my comment.........


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

i can see this thread has deteriorated further. Folks, it all about putting opinions down "respectfully". Trigga has a point to make regarding doing things on his own property with his own fish. That's ok. Whether or not the Fish & Wildlife will agree is another matter. I trust he will do the right thing in the end. Everybody just chill. For those wondering about age, I'm nearly 60 years and started in this hobby long before most of you have been a gleam in your daddy's eyes. SO there.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

My dads 56.. Maybe not so in my case

frank is right if they tell me there is a chance my fish can be taken from me I won't be doing it.


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

well trigga whatever you do GOOD LUCK and BE CAREFUL! I definitely don't wish doom upon ur fish and think it would look cool to see what the pond would look like. Do you have any plans as to how big its going to be?


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

It's gonna be along the back left wall of my backyard.. I was thinking something like 6x4x4 feet deep I may make it a bit longer since I am sloping the pond.. Probably somewhere around 8 feet


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## Ba20 (Jan 29, 2003)

Even though i dont agree HERE is where i got the liner for my pond. EPDM is the only way to go.


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## Ibanez247 (Nov 9, 2006)

Wow some crazy arguements. I skipped around cause the posts just became lame flame war so sorry if Im repeating what someone said. One personally Id never keep P's outside. I also live in vermont. Arguing about this is just retarded. Good points for boths sides but neither is 100% correct. Its up to the owner to do as they wish. Ive seen many tanks inside that looks like ass and the fish would probably be better off in an outoor pool. Ponds can be heated very easily with a pool heater in cooler climates. I have a friend that used to keep his in ground pool open year round at a constant 80 degrees so its very posible to keep a piranha pond year round. The chance an egg is going to attach itself to a bird seems highly unlikely yet could happen. Now being in a cool climate P's are going to survive very long where I live anyway. In the south this could be an issue. One post said its illegal to keep non native fish outside. Aahhh ok. Maybe in states where P's are illegal to begin with. Why everone freaks out over stuff like this is beyond me. You honestly think that if P's are made illegal to keep people are goign to stop keeping them? hehe ever hear of illegal drugs. If theres demand someone will supply. All these pacus being called piranhas by "scientists" are more apt to hurt the hobby than a resposible owner with a piranha pond. Piranahs are nothing like a snakehead so why people are comparing apples to oranges is silly. As I said Id never keep a piranha pond or any pond with tropical fish really. Why, you cant see them so I wouldnt enjoy the hobby at all. Now keeping a large pond with some large mouth bass hell yeah Id be down there fishing everyday. Little side note, large mouth bass were brought to the states from germany. They arent native either if you want to push the envolope.


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## Wide_Eyed_Wanderer (Aug 22, 2006)

Those with ponds, are there a lot of mosquito hanging around there during the evening?


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## sprfunk (Dec 22, 2005)

Ibanez247 said:


> Wow some crazy arguements. I skipped around cause the posts just became lame flame war so sorry if Im repeating what someone said. One personally Id never keep P's outside. I also live in vermont. Arguing about this is just retarded. Good points for boths sides but neither is 100% correct. Its up to the owner to do as they wish. Ive seen many tanks inside that looks like ass and the fish would probably be better off in an outoor pool. Ponds can be heated very easily with a pool heater in cooler climates. I have a friend that used to keep his in ground pool open year round at a constant 80 degrees so its very posible to keep a piranha pond year round. The chance an egg is going to attach itself to a bird seems highly unlikely yet could happen. Now being in a cool climate P's are going to survive very long where I live anyway. In the south this could be an issue. One post said its illegal to keep non native fish outside. Aahhh ok. Maybe in states where P's are illegal to begin with. Why everone freaks out over stuff like this is beyond me. You honestly think that if P's are made illegal to keep people are goign to stop keeping them? hehe ever hear of illegal drugs. If theres demand someone will supply. All these pacus being called piranhas by "scientists" are more apt to hurt the hobby than a resposible owner with a piranha pond. Piranahs are nothing like a snakehead so why people are comparing apples to oranges is silly. As I said Id never keep a piranha pond or any pond with tropical fish really. Why, you cant see them so I wouldnt enjoy the hobby at all. Now keeping a large pond with some large mouth bass hell yeah Id be down there fishing everyday. Little side note, large mouth bass were brought to the states from germany. They arent native either if you want to push the envolope.


Its true that they could not live long if they were to escape (past winter), eggs, fry whatever. Although one P that is transplanted to a lake would not seem to be a problem as far as over competing, other problems could exist. For instance South American fish sickness, fungus, or parasite that could attack native fish (look up toad fungus, but the list goes on). So no its not apples and oranges, introduced species 99.9% of the time lead to huge problems for our natural environment. But just the fact that people could find a small P in a lake or river and think they are spawning or wintering. Any piranha caught in any watershed they are not natural to is bad for the hobby. 
Sure people would still keep P's if there was a ban, but why would that be a good alternative to responsible fish keeping? Why give them a chance to take that away? Do you really want to make buying a P feel like a drug deal?
Hater hope the best for you and your fish and I really hope it does not come back to bite you and others in your area. I am really hoping this will not develop into a trend because you know that many people will not take the precautions that you have.

I'm just waiting for a guy from south Texas to try this.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

For those asking about the Lake Ontario piranha captured. I've attached the photo and caption. I believe the fish was caught circa 2000. Don't recall date. Somewhere in my vast library (in storage) is the entire article. The fish was examined by Bill Fink and was a confirmed aquarium piranha released.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Yeah that biologist was telling me.. It was at like professor lake or something like that near missisauga


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## wpviper (Jun 25, 2007)

looks like a pacu


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> wpviper Posted Yesterday, 11:50 PM
> looks like a pacu


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

Trig
MNR 1-800-667-1940 to ask if there are any problems with the pond idea. 
Durham Regional Police Service? - (905) 579-1520 Best bet is to get a formal email reply. 
Contact the insurance company to ensure they have no problems covering your ass if the 'impossible' does happen and you have a child get injured by the piranha in your pond. 
Kids drown in ponds every year (god forbid your pound is one of them).
No one plans accidents but do you really think a drowned child covered in piranha bites would have no effect on our hobby.


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

if the kid is on my property without my permission then i wouldnt be liable if he fell in the pond.

We dont really through family parties in our backyard.. its just somewhere to smoke and where my dad grows his vegetables on the other side of the pond.

Thats the number i called and got put through to the biologist and he said wildlife enforcement would call me

They just called me today... they said i am breaking no laws and that legally i am allowed to go ahead as long as no non-native species is being released into natural bodies of water... i told him the value of these fish and assured him it would not happen.

So all in all i think thats a green light for my project here... i will be starting the dig late march early april once it gets kinda warm... adding the fish by mid may and taking them out late september... look for the thread and please try to keep the flame war out of that one.


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## cobrafox46 (Jun 2, 2008)

I do not know about Canada but in the US if a kid falls in your pool (I think it applies to ponds also) without the proper fencing or signs you can get prosecuted.
That is awesome they told you you can go ahead and do it. I look forward to seeing your progress! Keep us updated!


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

i plan on putting a small fence around it and a danger sign on the fence behind the pond as well...


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## cobrafox46 (Jun 2, 2008)

Great!! Just make sure it meets the requirements...........I would hate to see you get in trouble.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> cobrafox46 Posted Today, 08:37 AM
> Great!! Just make sure it meets the requirements...........I would hate to see you get in trouble.


My concern is not trigga getting into trouble. My concern is the impact on the hobby. Good luck, hope it all works out the way you want.


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## Soul Assassin (Nov 21, 2006)

Trigga said:


> *if the kid is on my property without my permission then i wouldnt be liable if he fell in the pond. *
> 
> We dont really through family parties in our backyard.. its just somewhere to smoke and where my dad grows his vegetables on the other side of the pond.
> 
> ...


You should look into "the kid illegally in my back yard" I know that if the species is dangerous to humans you will be charged and prosecuted, (just dont know is Ps are on that list). Zoos will get charged if a dumbass climes into the enclousure filled with lions and gets messed up b/c the zoo *chose* to keep a dangrous animal on their property. Look into it.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Soul Assassin said:


> You should look into "the kid illegally in my back yard" I know that if the species is dangerous to humans you will be charged and prosecuted, (just dont know is Ps are on that list). Zoos will get charged if a dumbass climes into the enclousure filled with lions and gets messed up b/c the zoo *chose* to keep a dangrous animal on their property. Look into it.


Yeah...it is the attraction. If you have a lion in a cage on your property and someone off the street comes into your yard, reaches in and grabs the lion by the balls....the lion bites his hand off....you will be sued and you will loose. Not saying it makes sense&#8230;.but that is why people carry such huge liability policies.


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## philbert (Mar 8, 2007)

i believe if your land is clearly posted that absolves any liability. also in order to sue for injury you have to prove negligence on the respondants side. ie. if you had a lion and someone told you there was a whole in the fence and didn't fix it then you would be responsible.


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

Trigga said:


> if the kid is on my property without my permission then i wouldnt be liable if he fell in the pond.


Just because you say you won't be liable, it doesn't mean you won't... 
I am not sure about your area but here ponds fall under swimming pool regs for fencing 48" and gates that automatically close and latch that cannot be opened from outside.

Did you call insurance company?

My opinion is that this is disrespectful to the hobby and to those who laid the foundation to get it to this point.


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## philbert (Mar 8, 2007)

Winkyee said:


> if the kid is on my property without my permission then i wouldnt be liable if he fell in the pond.


Just because you say you won't be liable, it doesn't mean you won't... 
I am not sure about your area but here ponds fall under swimming pool regs for fencing 48" and gates that automatically close and latch that cannot be opened from outside.

Did you call insurance company?

My opinion is that this is disrespectful to the hobby and to those who laid the foundation to get it to this point.
[/quote]

I agree that this should probably not be done, but the more precautions you take. the less likely you would be liable. ie signs, fence, and whatever.


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## Alexx (Jan 20, 2006)

if the right precautions are taken and he's not breaking any laws then i don't see the problem

the OP sounds like he knows the score and obviously isn't an idiot
and he appears to have it figured out and IMO is going about things the right way
.... the fact he's asked for permission from the relevant sources before going ahead with it has to be applauded

so i say crack on fella and i look forward to the pictures


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