# Praying



## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

I am an atheist and i can't work out why peple pray or go to church. If God is everywhere then why go to a church? if he knows everything why can he only suddenly hear you when your palms touch? More importantly WHY would you call god wrong by asking him to change something (ie, save your family from cancer or something) when he is perfect and never wrong etc, has a plan..

Please just sensible answers i am just curious. Also in the story of adam and eve who it says in the bible wree the first 2 people. What happens next? They have children but then what? Incest??


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

not touching that one with a 10 foot pole...

just rest reassured nothin anyone says is going to make it make it any more logical for you lol


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Made promise.....must.....resist....


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

PastorJeff said:


> Made promise.....must.....resist....


?









Wolf, people pray because I believe they find comfort and truth of self through prayer. Personally, I am not a man of any religion, nor do I pray the traditional way(s). I pray sometimes through meditation, through love for another person and through my actions, just I hope anyone else would. I think the traditional action of prayer is just a solid medium for someone to find peace through thier faith.


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## Fresh2salt (Jul 16, 2004)

WTF


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## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

WolfFish said:


> Please just sensible answers i am just curious. Also in the story of adam and eve who it says in the bible wree the first 2 people. What happens next? They have children but then what? Incest??


Well if you think about it, doctors/scientists say we as humans only use 10% of our brain. If Adam and Eve were the first two humans and they had kids, then their children had kids their brain usage would drop from that 100% to whatever. After awhile it would drop to the 10% that we currently use today. (Joking)


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

b_ack51 said:


> Please just sensible answers i am just curious. Also in the story of adam and eve who it says in the bible wree the first 2 people. What happens next? They have children but then what? Incest??


Well if you think about it, doctors/scientists say we as humans only use 10% of our brain. If Adam and Eve were the first two humans and they had kids, then their children had kids their brain usage would drop from that 100% to whatever. After awhile it would drop to the 10% that we currently use today. (Joking)
[/quote]










we're all just products of incest...that explains a lot


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

Boobah said:


> Please just sensible answers i am just curious. Also in the story of adam and eve who it says in the bible wree the first 2 people. What happens next? They have children but then what? Incest??


Well if you think about it, doctors/scientists say we as humans only use 10% of our brain. If Adam and Eve were the first two humans and they had kids, then their children had kids their brain usage would drop from that 100% to whatever. After awhile it would drop to the 10% that we currently use today. (Joking)
[/quote]










we're all just products of incest...that explains a lot
[/quote]

if you are an native from a small contry you are most likely related to every other native person..
if we didnt have inbreeding there would be like 100000 billion people on earth.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

Back when I was a Christian, I never read the Bible, especially the Old Testament, as a historical document. I always believed stories such as Adam and Eve were to be read for their symbolism and connotations, rather than be interpretted literally.

Why people pray is a harder question to answer. If people truly believed everything was "God's will" then I guess they wouldn't try contacting him to change things to how they want them. They would accept everything as is. But I really don't know because I am an atheist, too.


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## mr_rob_boto (Aug 31, 2003)

I'm pretty sure it's been proven a myth that we only use 10% of our brain(read it somewhere?)
People go to church to learn more about their religion and to feel closer to God, probably to get away from everything sinful in our normal lives and to help reassure each other.
I consider myself religious, and I pray sometimes.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Must........resist........


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2006)

PastorJeff said:


> Must........resist........


Hmmmmm.....sure would be nice to hear from people knowledgeable about the Christian faith...


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## illnino (Mar 6, 2004)

im an average rational person. i dont believe in something or waste my time on something unless it is benefitial to me, others, and is true. thats why i am athiest.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

b_ack51 said:


> Please just sensible answers i am just curious. Also in the story of adam and eve who it says in the bible wree the first 2 people. What happens next? They have children but then what? Incest??


Well if you think about it, doctors/scientists say we as humans only use 10% of our brain. If Adam and Eve were the first two humans and they had kids, then their children had kids their brain usage would drop from that 100% to whatever. After awhile it would drop to the 10% that we currently use today. (Joking)
[/quote]
doctors and scientists don't say that because it's not true. humans use all of their brain.


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## mike123 (Jul 17, 2006)

BOO CREEPY FOOT DOCTOR!!

HOORAY ATHEISM!!!!


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## GoriLLaFromDaMisT (Aug 15, 2006)

omg wow i dont wanna say anything to get anyone mad all im gonna say is i AM a Christian and all ways will be.


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

i pray becouse it makes me feel better in the hell that is around me.........if when you die it COULD be way worse, i need all the help i can get!


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## User (May 31, 2004)

I lost faith you might say, along time ago. Many events happened in my life that i'm convinced that God doesn't exist. I never prayed alot when I was religious, many people will say that prayer is simply a relationship building tool with God.


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## redrum781 (Apr 10, 2006)

Heaven is not blind to your pain.


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## mike123 (Jul 17, 2006)

i think God is just something people made up because they didnt have science.


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## zack-199 (Aug 10, 2006)

i tried to pray and go to church and all that stuff but since i stopped, nothing has gone bad or worse, so in my oppinion its all to reassure people that someone is watching out for them.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Bullsnake said:


> i think God is just something people made up because they didnt have science.


Science in no way shows that there is no God, there are many modern scientists that adhere to that statement, and there have been many scientists of faith of the past as well

The evolution question doesn't disspell God either, in that where did the monkey come from, or Earth and the heavens for that matter


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

I'm a born again Christian and going to Church is clearly His will that all those having the Spirit of God be fellowshipping and serving together on a regular basis (Hebrews 10:25 "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" ). 
I can pray anywhere, anytime and putting my palms together is not neccessary.
God will only hear prayers from His own children and no one else except the prayer of salvation from sinner. God is a Creator of all but not Father to all (John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.")
There's nothing in the Bible that says it's wrong to ask God to change His will. Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD."
Incest is not wrong back in the biblical times, Abraham married his half sister. It's not recommed in today's society due to mutant genes within the family gene pool and the moral laws of today. People were genetically perfect when created from the begining without any genetic defects.


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## mike123 (Jul 17, 2006)

or one could argue that man evolved from apes and was not created by god


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

mike123 said:


> or one could argue that man evolved from apes and was not created by god


I'm proud to be called the son of God and not son of an ape.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

mike123 said:


> or one could argue that man evolved from apes and was not created by god


That isn't even the scientic theory, the theory is we share a common ancestor not that humans are apes.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

it just kind of coccured to me that if adam and eve are th christian explination for the begning of man then what about other relifons like islam? and how does that tie in with the whole creationism and evolution non sense?


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## zack-199 (Aug 10, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> or one could argue that man evolved from apes and was not created by god


I'm proud to be called the son of God and not son of an ape.
[/quote]
good point!


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## mike123 (Jul 17, 2006)

Why arent dinosaurs in the bible, or are they??


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> it just kind of coccured to me that if adam and eve are th christian explination for the begning of man then what about other relifons like islam? and how does that tie in with the whole creationism and evolution non sense?


It isn't the Christian explination.. it is the Jewish, Islamic, and Christian view.
I think that the first 2 verses in the Bible are quite open, and vaigue. They leave room for much theory there, and should not cause divisions over different views over it.


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## Jewelz (Feb 24, 2004)

I wonder if Joe Pesci is able to receive my prayers... he's getting up there in age


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> although in general the scientific community does not believe a "God" or "Gods" exists,


There are many scientists of faith, even now.. they are out there in quite big numbers


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## User (May 31, 2004)

mike123 said:


> Why arent dinosaurs in the bible, or are they??


Genesis chapter one verses 1-25 can be interpreted individually, many may see the life and death of dinosaurs in those few verses. That however would mess with the bibical time frame. If the universe is just three minutes old, than earth has only existence half a second. Than is a scaled version of the scientic time frame.


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## taylorhedrich (Mar 2, 2005)

I personally believe in evolution more than anything. I think having to go to church to be with "God" is ridiculous. I was forced to go as a kid, so it's not surprising to hear that I haven't been there in at least 4-5 years.

I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If believing in God and going to church makes people happy, so be it. Afterall, it doesn't hurt others in the process.
~Taylor~


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## snakehead rock (Mar 26, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> or one could argue that man evolved from apes and was not created by god


*I'm proud to be called the son of God and not son of an ape.*
[/quote]







Quote of the year in my book.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> it just kind of coccured to me that if adam and eve are th christian explination for the begning of man then what about other relifons like islam? and how does that tie in with the whole creationism and evolution non sense?


God created each one of us with a free will to believe or reject Him. We can believe in anyone or anything we want, including Muhammad.

Evolution is a theory, not science. Millions of fossils have been discovered around the world and there's not one fossil that shows a fish transistioning to reptile or reptile to fish or ape to man.
Evolutionists say that the universe came about from a big bang. Matter (the substance of which a physical object is composed) the size of a pinhead somehow exploded and the universe came about because of it. The sun, the moon, the earth, and everything in this gallexy and beyond came to being due to the explosion of matter the size of a pinhead







. 
None living materials somehow came together and formed living organisms







.
Evolutionists say humans came to existing 1.5 to 2.5 million years ago. The population growth of the earth is consistant at 2% a year. If we came aobut 1.5 mil yrs ago, the universe can't hold the human population. According to the Bible, the earth is 65,00 years old and at 2% growth rate, the earth is exactly at 6 billion people.

According to statistical science, the possibility of none living materials forming to something living, the odds are 10th the 100th billionth power. There's a better chance for a tornato to go through a junkyard and form boeing 747.


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## mike123 (Jul 17, 2006)

i never said that anyones parents were apes, i just think that we are a result of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. Maybe im the great great great great great great great great great great great, ect grandson of an ape.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> > although in general the scientific community does not believe a "God" or "Gods" exists,
> 
> 
> There are many scientists of faith, even now.. they are out there in quite big numbers


I agree.

http://atinyglimpse.ytmnd.com/

^^ Everyone regardless of personal view of science or religion should really watch that flash, its user friendly and makes your mind glow. Its a fun link.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Evolution theory also violated the The Second Law of Thermodynamics

The Second Law (Law of Energy Decay) states that every system left to its own devices always tends to move from order to disorder, its energy tending to be transformed into lower levels of availability, finally reaching the state of complete randomness and unavailability for further work.

The Big Bang theory says the universe came about from disorder to order.


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## shaas3 (Sep 10, 2006)

To be fair, scientists believe we came to be around 50,000 years ago not 1.5 to 2 million. Also the reason why there is not fossil of the transformation from species to species is that the conditions required to make a fossil are precise that its takes a long time to get all the right things to happen at the same.

Im not trying to offend anyone because personally I am a deist. I believe that God and science co-exist and that one just helps explain the other. Who is to say that God didn't throw down a single celled organism with the full intention of it evolving into a complex tree of different species.

As far as the bible, I don't put to much stock into the actual text of the bible because through out recorded history it has been changed to suit whatever king or emperor was in power at the time. So today's texts aren't the actual texts from biblical times. But hey, to each his own.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

According to Origins of Humankind

The oldest known hominid, or humanlike species, has been dated at 4.4 million years old. Another species, which is yet to be confirmed as a hominid, has been dated at 6 million years old. Scientists estimate that the hominid lineage diverged from the ape lineage 5 to 8 million years ago. **** sapiens, the species to which we belong, has existed for about 100,000 years. 
Do the math, even 50,000 yrs and 2% growth rate does not come out to 6 billion.

There're fossils of every kind and in every form EXCEPT transistion fossils. Perhaps it does not exist!


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## shaas3 (Sep 10, 2006)

I stand corrected but its still not 1.5 to 2 million. besides 100,000 is well within the realm of possibilty when you take into account the advent of birthcontrol and mass die-offs like famin and stuff.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

all im going to say about the christian faiths inability to accept scientific fact is that the bible was written a long long time ago and many things such as carbon dating and dna evalualuation have been invented since then.. and yes these thing do disprove many belifes of the bible just like i choose not to accept the stories of teh bible many jesus freaks choose not to accept the fact that modern science have proven..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

shaas3 said:


> I stand corrected but its still not 1.5 to 2 million. besides 100,000 is well within the realm of possibilty when you take into account the advent of birthcontrol and mass die-offs like famin and stuff.


The world population census has taken mass die-offs into consideration and still came out with 2% growth rate. You believe they came out with that percentage without considering all the factors?


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## mike123 (Jul 17, 2006)

i cant explain the origin of the universe or how man can to be. However, i find it a little farfetched that an omnipotent being created all. Scientists will continue to come up with new ideas and theories that will contradict the bible and people will always argue that some way or another its wrong because god makes everything happen. I cannot prove anything in science, no one can because no one knows everything. On the other hand can you prove god is real? Has god ever come down to earth and shown himself? Some people might say that Jesus was the son of god, but how do you know that he was any different than any other man, were you there? If someone today started to tell people that he was the son of god, or god himself, people would think that person is crazy. No one will be able to prove that they are right. So what im trying to get at is that we should agree to disagree.


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## shaas3 (Sep 10, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> I stand corrected but its still not 1.5 to 2 million. besides 100,000 is well within the realm of possibilty when you take into account the advent of birthcontrol and mass die-offs like famin and stuff.


The world population census has taken mass die-offs into consideration and still came out with 2% growth rate. You believe they came out with that percentage without considering all the factors?
[/quote]

Thats great but there were no censei 100,000 years ago and during early human development preditors would have taken a lot of humans causing the growth rate to slow. That 2% is an average based off of *recorded* history.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Evolution theory also violated the The Second Law of Thermodynamics
> 
> The Second Law (Law of Energy Decay) states that every system left to its own devices always tends to move from order to disorder, its energy tending to be transformed into lower levels of availability, finally reaching the state of complete randomness and unavailability for further work.
> 
> The Big Bang theory says the universe came about from disorder to order.


The second law of thermodynamics states that the net entropy within an ISOLATED system is always increasing or remains constant. The problem is earth is a NON-isolated system, and the universe isn't isolated, the whole universe is another word for the plain of existence.

The earth is continuously absorbing radiative heat transfer energy from the sun and continuously transferring thermal energy to outer-space through thermal emissions. Because the earth participates in these heat transfer processes it is non-isolated.


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## shaas3 (Sep 10, 2006)

Im with mike, we can argue facts vs. facts from different sources but were not going to change anyones mind.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

pulling back to the original intent or rather question of the thread. people go to church because congragating with other like minded people reinforces and helps to educate what is being celebrated. This is a global truth that we apply to just about every aspect of our lives and learning. How much easer is it to learn in a classroom enviroment then to study on your own? In the classroom you have the ablity to discuss and review with others to come to a better understanding.

Why do we pray? and does god answer our prayers? No. He does not take his time to change the fate of your life. not in a direct individual manner. To think that we are that significant is rediculas. to expect god to handel the smaller aspects of your world are a tad bit arrogant. 
What would make ones prayer take priority? 
However faith is a powerfull thing. and the mind has alot more ablity then we realize. and the determination to live that faith gives some people allows them to not give up their fight aganst their Illness. and sometimes gives them the strenght to pull thru.

but the plan laid out by the lord does not directly gaurentee each of us passage. It simply stats We start here------We end up here. 
What we do in between and what happens in the individual lives of each person is not gods concern. Because it is for us to come to him thru our actions. In our lives our aceptance of the lord allow us passage on to the Next step in our existance. ( I leave this part blank to allow for multiple beliefs)
What happens to us here is up to us. 
This is the choice that god gives us. We chose to live how we want. We are allowed to chose what side of the fence we want to live on. We chose if we want to belive in god or not. that choice is what allows us to either pass or not. 
But that choice does not get us prefferance in gods eyes here on this earth.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

It is well known that, left to themselves, chemical compounds ultimately break apart into simpler materials; they do not ultimately become more complex. Outside forces can increase order for a time (through the expenditure of relatively large amounts of energy, and through the input of design). However, such reversal cannot last forever. Once the force is released, processes return to their natural direction - greater disorder. Their energy is transformed into lower levels of availability for further work. The natural tendency of complex, ordered arrangements and systems is to become simpler and more disorderly with time.4

Evolutionism claims that over billions of years everything is basically developing UPWARD, becoming more orderly and complex. However, this basic law of science (2nd Law of Thermodynamics) says the opposite. The pressure is DOWNWARD, toward simplification and disorder.

Thus, in the long term, there is an overall downward trend throughout the universe. Ultimately, when all the energy of the cosmos has been degraded, all molecules will move randomly, and the entire universe will be cold and without order. To put it simply: In the real world, the long-term overall flow is downhill, not uphill. All experimental and physical observation appears to confirm that the Law is indeed universal, affecting all natural processes in the long run.5

Naturalistic Evolutionism requires that physical laws and atoms organize themselves into increasingly complex and beneficial, ordered arrangements.6 Thus, over eons of time, billions of things are supposed to have developed upward, becoming more orderly and complex.7

However, this basic law of science (2nd Law of Thermodynamics) reveals the exact opposite. In the long run, complex, ordered arrangements actually tend to become simpler and more disorderly with time. There is an irreversible downward trend ultimately at work throughout the universe. Evolution, with its ever increasing order and complexity, appears impossible in the natural world.



User said:


> Evolution theory also violated the The Second Law of Thermodynamics
> 
> The Second Law (Law of Energy Decay) states that every system left to its own devices always tends to move from order to disorder, its energy tending to be transformed into lower levels of availability, finally reaching the state of complete randomness and unavailability for further work.
> 
> The Big Bang theory says the universe came about from disorder to order.


The second law of thermodynamics states that the net entropy within an ISOLATED system is always increasing or remains constant. The problem is earth is a NON-isolated system, and the universe isn't isolated, the whole universe is another word for the plain of existence.

The earth is continuously absorbing radiative heat transfer energy from the sun and continuously transferring thermal energy to outer-space through thermal emissions. Because the earth participates in these heat transfer processes it is non-isolated.
[/quote]
I'm not talking about the earth, I'm talking about the universe. Explosion (disorder) to forming of our universe (order).


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> As far as the bible, I don't put to much stock into the actual text of the bible because through out recorded history it has been changed to suit whatever king or emperor was in power at the time. So today's texts aren't the actual texts from biblical times. But hey, to each his own.


Hey, that is cool what you believe,

But there have been ancient copys, or even origional texts of these "Bible" books found, and studied, and what we call 'the Bible' now is about 98% accurate to them. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls is one of the more recent findings.
The language barrier, and translation seems to be most of the difference


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## shaas3 (Sep 10, 2006)

religion and politics... they always get people talking


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## User (May 31, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Evolution theory also violated the The Second Law of Thermodynamics
> 
> The Second Law (Law of Energy Decay) states that every system left to its own devices always tends to move from order to disorder, its energy tending to be transformed into lower levels of availability, finally reaching the state of complete randomness and unavailability for further work.
> 
> The Big Bang theory says the universe came about from disorder to order.


The second law of thermodynamics states that the net entropy within an ISOLATED system is always increasing or remains constant. The problem is earth is a NON-isolated system, and the universe isn't isolated, the whole universe is another word for the plain of existence.

The earth is continuously absorbing radiative heat transfer energy from the sun and continuously transferring thermal energy to outer-space through thermal emissions. Because the earth participates in these heat transfer processes it is non-isolated.
[/quote]
I'm not talking about the earth, I'm talking about the universe.
[/quote]

Not sure what you're trying to say honestly. Are you talking about the universe death theory ?


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## shaas3 (Sep 10, 2006)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> > As far as the bible, I don't put to much stock into the actual text of the bible because through out recorded history it has been changed to suit whatever king or emperor was in power at the time. So today's texts aren't the actual texts from biblical times. But hey, to each his own.
> 
> 
> Hey, that is cool what you believe,
> ...


I didnt know that. Thats interesting


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

I'm taking about the origion of Evolution Theory which started as an explosion (disorder) to the formation of the universe (order). This theory violates the 2nd law of thermodynamic.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> I'm taking about the origion of Evolution Theory which started as an explosion (disorder) to the formation of the universe (order). This theory violates the 2nd law of thermodynamic.


Oh I see.

The evolution theory has no bearing on the big bang theory (which many people support big bang theory and there being a God created from it).


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## illnino (Mar 6, 2004)




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## mike123 (Jul 17, 2006)

illnino said:


>


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

User said:


> I'm taking about the origion of Evolution Theory which started as an explosion (disorder) to the formation of the universe (order). This theory violates the 2nd law of thermodynamic.


Oh I see.

The evolution theory has no bearing on the big bang theory (which many people support big bang theory and there being a God created from it).
[/quote]
But the problem is the lenght of time of creation which is being millions of years.

The creation account of Genesis states that God created heaven and earth in 6 days.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
1:8 And the evening and the morning were the second day.
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
1:31 And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis clearly states that God created Heaven and earth in 6 literal days (evening and morning) and not millions of years.


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## mike123 (Jul 17, 2006)

hmmmmmmmmmmm im not sure which is more plausable, everything comeing from the big bang, God creating everything in 6 days, or maybe we are bred by machines as a fuel source because we blocked out the sun and we are just tricked into believing this is reality.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Either believe in the creation of God or this universe came about from explosion of matter the size of a pinhead.


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## Malok (Mar 26, 2006)

As far as the bible, I don't put to much stock into the actual text of the bible because through out recorded history it has been changed to suit whatever king or emperor was in power at the time. So today's texts aren't the actual texts from biblical times. But hey, to each his own

this is also the same as me i believe in god and sometimes i pray but i have much more faith in god then the bible

what is the bible
isnt it basically a bunch of short stories wrote down by man 
i could probally see someone walk on water too (if i was drunk)
and i would write a storie about it


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## User (May 31, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> I'm taking about the origion of Evolution Theory which started as an explosion (disorder) to the formation of the universe (order). This theory violates the 2nd law of thermodynamic.


Oh I see.

The evolution theory has no bearing on the big bang theory (which many people support big bang theory and there being a God created from it).
[/quote]
But the problem is the lenght of time of creation which is being millions of years.

The creation account of Genesis states that God created heaven and earth in 6 days.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
1:8 And the evening and the morning were the second day.
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
1:31 And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis clearly states that God created Heaven and earth in 6 literal days (evening and morning) and not millions of years.
[/quote]

I understand your belief, but sometime in order for ideas to survive they must change.

Example;

Saying that a possible God came before the big bang wouldn't be logical, since there is no "before" because time didn't exist. The possiblity of a God or Gods would be more logical that they were formed from the big bang. With quantum physics scientists regularily deal with events that have no cause. Particles of matter may simply pop into existence without warning, and then equally abruptly disappear. To say that God created the universe and God just exists isn't logical. That would nearly be a case of disorder to order.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

Who said that the Big bang was the begginning of ALL existance? 
Time did not start when the bang happend. 
just our accounting of it. Time happens reguardless of whos keeping track. Perhaps it is all beyond our understanding because its hard to consider that there could be entities that are beyond our own laws of physics and time that we must adhear to. 
Small exmple. man cannot fly. So to fly it had always been a dream of ours and we had to evolve and design a means to do so. 
But to a small sparrow they are born with the ablity. So its 1st nature for them to do so. So we look at flight in a totally different way then a bird would.
Just as one of a spirtual existance would look at reality or be governed by a diffrent perspective and view point then we do.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> Who said that the Big bang was the begginning of ALL existance?
> Time did not start when the bang happend.
> just our accounting of it. Time happens reguardless of whos keeping track. Perhaps it is all beyond our understanding because its hard to consider that there could be entities that are beyond our own laws of physics and time that we must adhear to.
> Small exmple. man cannot fly. So to fly it had always been a dream of ours and we had to evolve and design a means to do so.
> ...


We are talking about the begining of life and not all existance (living or non-living).


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## User (May 31, 2004)

I got to go study alittle guys, enjoy alittle time with my girlfriend and so.

I enjoyed the conversation, didn't really enjoy the Jesus bashing pictures - there was no need for it. Maybe some of you will enjoy this, its arranged biblical quotes, I've probably read the bible and other religious text more times than the majority of people that claim to follow it.

You may not know me, but I know everything about you &#8230;Psalm 139:1

I know when you sit down and when you rise up &#8230;Psalm 139:2

I am familiar with all your ways &#8230;Psalm 139:3

Even the very hairs on your head are numbered &#8230;Matthew 10:29-31

For you were made in my image &#8230;Genesis 1:27

In me you live and move and have your being &#8230;Acts 17:28

For you are my offspring &#8230;Acts 17:28

I knew you even before you were conceived &#8230;Jeremiah 1:4-5

I chose you when I planned creation &#8230;Ephesians 1:11-12

You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in my book &#8230;Psalm 139:15-16

I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live &#8230;Acts 17:26

You are fearfully and wonderfully made &#8230;Psalm 139:14

I knit you together in your mother's womb &#8230;Psalm 139:13

And brought you forth on the day you were born &#8230;Psalm 71:6

I have been misrepresented by those who don't know me &#8230;John 8:41-44

I am not distant and angry, but am the complete expression of love &#8230;1 John 4:16

And it is my desire to lavish my love on you &#8230;1 John 3:1

Simply because you are my child and I am your father &#8230;1 John 3:1

I offer you more than your earthly father ever could &#8230;Matthew 7:11

For I am the perfect father &#8230;Matthew 5:48

Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand &#8230;James 1:17

For I am your provider and I meet all your needs &#8230;Matthew 6:31-33

My plan for your future has always been filled with hope &#8230;Jeremiah 29:11

Because I love you with an everlasting love &#8230;Jeremiah 31:3

My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore ...Psalms 139:17-18

And I rejoice over you with singing &#8230;Zephaniah 3:17

I will never stop doing good to you &#8230;Jeremiah 32:40

For you are my treasured possession &#8230;Exodus 19:5

I desire to establish you with all my heart and all my soul &#8230;Jeremiah 32:41

And I want to show you great and marvelous things &#8230;Jeremiah 33:3

If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me &#8230;Deuteronomy 4:29

Delight in me and I will give you the desires of your heart &#8230;Psalm 37:4

For it is I who gave you those desires &#8230;Philippians 2:13

I am able to do more for you than you could possibly imagine &#8230;Ephesians 3:20

For I am your greatest encourager &#8230;2 Thessalonians 2:16-17

I am also the Father who comforts you in all your troubles &#8230;2 Corinthians 1:3-4

When you are brokenhearted, I am close to you &#8230;Psalm 34:18

As a shepherd carries a lamb, I have carried you close to my heart &#8230;Isaiah 40:11

One day I will wipe away every tear from your eyes &#8230;Revelation 21:3-4

And I'll take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth &#8230;Revelation 21:3-4

I am your Father, and I love you even as I love my son, Jesus &#8230;John 17:23

For in Jesus, my love for you is revealed &#8230;John 17:26

He is the exact representation of my being &#8230;Hebrews 1:3

He came to demonstrate that I am for you, not against you &#8230;Romans 8:31

And to tell you that I am not counting your sins &#8230;2 Corinthians 5:18-19

Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled &#8230;2 Corinthians 5:18-19

His death was the ultimate expression of my love for you &#8230;1 John 4:10

I gave up everything I loved that I might gain your love &#8230;Romans 8:31-32

If you receive the gift of my son Jesus, you receive me &#8230;1 John 2:23

And nothing will ever separate you from my love again &#8230;Romans 8:38-39

Come home and I'll throw the biggest party heaven has ever seen &#8230;Luke 15:7

I have always been Father, and will always be Father &#8230;Ephesians 3:14-15

My question is&#8230;Will you be my child? &#8230;John 1:12-13

I am waiting for you &#8230;Luke 15:11-32


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

that was beautiful, User, thanks for that


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> that was beautiful, User, thanks for that


Amen


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## zack-199 (Aug 10, 2006)

people beleive in God because they were sick of having long conversations like this about figuring out how we came to be


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## Adam12 (Jul 15, 2006)

http://www.bustedtees.com/shirt/jesusshaves#


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> Who said that the Big bang was the begginning of ALL existance?
> Time did not start when the bang happend.
> just our accounting of it. Time happens reguardless of whos keeping track. Perhaps it is all beyond our understanding because its hard to consider that there could be entities that are beyond our own laws of physics and time that we must adhear to.
> Small exmple. man cannot fly. So to fly it had always been a dream of ours and we had to evolve and design a means to do so.
> ...


We are talking about the begining of life and not all existance (living or non-living).
[/quote]

yes I know. but I was referring to his statement as to the beggining being at the Bang. the Example that user gave.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

Its hard to know where to start this reply. Well actually yes, NO jesus bashing. I am usually the first to do so but i am trying to understand it more and be mature. Its the first time i have even considered trying to think like a christian. So first off

1. Its accepted that we all come from 2 people? Would it then be acceptable to say that white and black people came from 2 white people? SO therefore isn't saying evolution doesn't exist contradict this. Also how can you deny addaptation when you can physically see it. As the planet changes the animals adpat to survive, those that don't adapt die. For example rat posion. They ARE adapting to it. They have built up and immunity. This is a bad example but i am tired,however it does show the basic evolutionary theories i hope.

2. I understand praying makes people feel better but does anyone pray and trully think god will change his plans? I think this is wrong if you beleive god is perfect.

Here are my reasons i get annoyed with religion. Firstly scientists are sometimes wrong. They sometimes miscalculate or misunderstand until new technology allows them to correct themselves. They admit mistake ie, the world being flat. When religion is concerned i feel that the bible should be taken 100% literally or disguarded otherwise you are creating your own religion which is ridiculous. But if the bible can be proven wrong (i believe there are references to mythical creatures in the bible....or were) it is 'reinterpreted' or ignored. There ARE fossils which whether or not show evolutionary steps (which i feel they do) show that that the world is very much older than the bible says and that there was life before humans.
Also, difference coutnries have different religions BECAUSE THATS HOW THEY WERE BROUGHT UP. Religion is the beliefs of your parents most of the time.

this should be a quote but its not 'we are all atheists, just some believe in one less god than others' which basically means if you can say why you are christian not muslim etc then you are atheist.

But from another point of view, the big bang. I do believe that the universe is explanding as there is proof. But where did the original explosion form from? simply, i do not know. How did life form? I do not know...how big is the universe? what happens when you die? I DO NOT KNOW

BUT what i do not do is look for answers without explanation as religious people do. I do not need comfort knowing what will happen and i think this is the only difference between atheists and the rest of the world.

I think this is everything. Pastorjeff please reply i am trying to make this a serious question/answer thread not a huge debate. I am curious about why people have faith.

Oh and the statistic about 2% a year?? 3/4 of europe was wipe out not 500 years ago, there have been millions more killed by war, disease etc. I am not going to work it out but we are only increasing more rapidly due to science and medicine, something which religion tried to prevent. Heres a good point actually, let god save you why look to science to save your lives when your sick? There was a time when 100% of england was forced to be christian...those times were known as the dark ages. Thats something to think about.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Economic development will inevitably shift a society (and the world) to low population growth. In fact, the current 1.3% annual growth of world population is down from a peak of 2.0% in the 1960s and early 1970s. Currently the world's population is projected to peak before 2100 at perhaps 11 billion. Opponents of free markets have variously suggested or imposed various methods to "control" population growth. The most extreme case is mainland China, with severe penalties for families who have more than one child and (despite official claims) mandatory abortions against the will of the mothers, sometimes in the ninth month of pregnancy. The population is dropping, not increasing.

Adaptation to survive is NOT changing from one specie to another. It's micro-evolution within that specie. If there're evolution fossils, it'd be all over the news.

Scientists can't proof the big bang theory. Scientists can't create life out of non-life form. It's a theory.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> *Economic development will inevitably shift a society (and the world) to low population growth*. In fact, the current 1.3% annual growth of world population is down from a peak of 2.0% in the 1960s and early 1970s. Currently the world's population is projected to peak before 2100 at perhaps 11 billion. Opponents of free markets have variously suggested or imposed various methods to "control" population growth. The most extreme case is mainland China, with severe penalties for families who have more than one child and (despite official claims) mandatory abortions against the will of the mothers, sometimes in the ninth month of pregnancy. The population is dropping, not increasing.
> 
> Adaptation to survive is NOT changing from one specie to another. It's micro-evolution within that specie.


Materialism will be the main contribute to negetive population growth IMO.

Again i'm not sure what youre trying to discuss. lol


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Again i'm not sure what youre trying to discuss. lol


Wolfish is saying that " I am not going to work it out but we are only increasing more rapidly due to science and medicine, something which religion tried to prevent." I'm showing him that population is not increasing but decreasing.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

the micro-evolution as you call it over billions of years is what creates new species. As a weird example, single cell lifeforms in the sea...instead of using sunlight one may have consumed another, so one learnt to excape them etc etc. BAD example and no science there but you get my point.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Micro-evolution is small changes within a specie.
Maco-evolution is changing from one specie to another (evolution).


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

one of my favorite takes on religion: The Holy Bibble


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

God makes you have to work, in your life so you can really appreciate the true paradise that is heaven. If god made everything perfect in the world this would be paradise and we would have nothing to work towards. I have nothing against Athiests but i honestly cant imagine living without imagining that someone was watching us from above, giving us good luck and bad luck(karma), I remember when ever i used to smoke as a kid, that whole day would be bad, but when i didnt it was a good day. 3 years of that couldnt be all coincidance.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Trigga said:


> God makes you have to work, in your life so you can really appreciate the true paradise that is heaven. If god made everything perfect in the world this would be paradise and we would have nothing to work towards. *I have nothing against Athiests but i honestly cant imagine living without imagining that someone was watching us from above,* giving us good luck and bad luck(karma), I remember when ever i used to smoke as a kid, that whole day would be bad, but when i didnt it was a good day. 3 years of that couldnt be all coincidance.


Someone has to fuel the great deception. Matthew 24:24

My mind gets loopy passed 40 hours of no sleep.


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## luciferzone (Feb 14, 2006)

Hmmm


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Micro-evolution is small changes within a specie.
> Maco-evolution is changing from one specie to another (evolution).


ok heres a better example woolly mammoths evolved into elephants when the ice age ended? i hope this is true lol. Elephants are a different species to mammoths correct? So small changes ovcer time created a new species. Small changes in primates eventually led to humans. If one group of animals breaks off and has to adapt differently then they may evolve into new species, this is how it works. Please explain the difference in humans if we were all descended from 2 people without this.

Fundamentall however if you can accept that micro-evolution exists then you are a hipocrit to deny evolution itself. How can you deny this?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Micro-evolution is happening everyday and no one is denying that. On the other hand, there's no proof of Macro-evolution (no fossil record).

As for MAMMOTH ORIGIN

Order Proboscidea (includes all elephants)

Proboscideans 
Proboscis = long flexible snout 
165 species
Mammoths are NOT closely related to mastodons. 
Mastodons are quite different from mammoths in size, diet, structure, habitat
Mammoths are NOT the ancestors of the modern elephant.

Elephantids split into 3 main groups (making them like first cousins) ~3-5 mya

Mammuthus (mammoths - now extinct)

Loxodonta (L. africana = modern African elephant)

Elephas (E. maximus = modern Asian elephant)


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Micro-evolution is happening everyday and no one is denying that. On the other hand, there's no proof of Macro-evolution (no fossil record).
> 
> As for MAMMOTH ORIGIN
> 
> ...


ok bad example?







but the theory and FACTS remain the same

Before i say anything else, how do you even explain fossils which are millions of years old? There is fact for this don't say there isn't please give a good answer. Just because the particular fossil you want hasn't been discovered to the best of my knowledge why do you think thats even necessary? Do you admit dinosaurs came first? Do you deny that there were mythical creatures in the bible???? or do you just read the parts that you want to beleive and ignore the rest?

AND wasn't the bible written by the same people who said the world was flat? People make mistakes, living your whole life by the word of an old story book with no proof is unfathomable to me.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

luciferzone said:


> Hmmm


If youre referring to my last comment, the first part was a joke.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

I have to sleep now so i will make one more point actually

Scientists can list thousands of facts that are undeniable even to the most religious of people. You can't deny gravity, physics however hard you try. All religion can do is say science doesn't prove you wrong on some points that you have chosen to believe. Lots of the bible has been proven a joke yet people still deny it. No science cant prove there isn't an afterlife, but what proof do you have to offer it does? none. Fair enough but what science will never do is say something is true without fact, why would they thats what an idiot would do. What scientist would dare put forward a theory without some means of proving it? They would be laughed at yet somehow religion gets away with it?

Just because something can't be proved wrong it doesn't mean *insert relgious belief* is true and thats all the evidence you can offer.

Until someone can put forward some genuine logical reasoning i am going to think of christians as idiots .


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

WolfFish said:


> AND wasn't the bible written by the same people who said the world was flat? People make mistakes, living your whole life by the word of an old story book with no proof is unfathomable to me.


No. The Quran says the earth is flat. The Bible says the earth is round. Isa 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"

I belive in the ENTIRE Bible. God created all the animals (including dinosaurs) the 5th day. You've no transistion fossils because they don't exist. One can put up all kinds of assumption without a shread of proof. That's not science.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

lol Do you need to tag me in Wolf ?


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> it just kind of coccured to me that if adam and eve are th christian explination for the begning of man then what about other relifons like islam? and how does that tie in with the whole creationism and evolution non sense?


God created each one of us with a free will to believe or reject Him. We can believe in anyone or anything we want, including Muhammad.

Evolution is a theory, not science. Millions of fossils have been discovered around the world and there's not one fossil that shows a fish transistioning to reptile or reptile to fish or ape to man.
[/quote]
Well, not really. There is alot not known about species evolution because animals that lived 340 million years ago didn't leave alot of evidence behind. But, there are fossils from that period of lunged fish with four libs, which is currently believed to be the fore-runner of the Modern 4-limbed beings (tetrapods).








Article: http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc99/5_22_99/bob1.htm

Also, your 2% theory is fundamentally wrong. The human population has not increased in a linear fashion at a steady 2% rate. Rather, it is growing exponentially. We went from being a rare creature to one with a very high population in a relatively short period of time. This is clearly documented by modern historians, and not just paleontologists.

It amazes me that people are willing to disregard all the findings of modern geology and paleontology, but I do admire your faith.


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> AND wasn't the bible written by the same people who said the world was flat? People make mistakes, living your whole life by the word of an old story book with no proof is unfathomable to me.


No. The Quran says the earth is flat. The Bible says the earth is round. Isa 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"

*I belive in the ENTIRE Bible.* God created all the animals (including dinosaurs) the 5th day. You've no transistion fossils because they don't exist. One can put up all kinds of assumption without a shread of proof. That's not science.
[/quote]

both old and new testament? do you eat shellfish?


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Bullsnake said:


> it just kind of coccured to me that if adam and eve are th christian explination for the begning of man then what about other relifons like islam? and how does that tie in with the whole creationism and evolution non sense?


God created each one of us with a free will to believe or reject Him. We can believe in anyone or anything we want, including Muhammad.

Evolution is a theory, not science. Millions of fossils have been discovered around the world and there's not one fossil that shows a fish transistioning to reptile or reptile to fish or ape to man.
[/quote]
Well, not really. There is alot not known about species evolution because animals that lived 340 million years ago didn't leave alot of evidence behind. But, there are fossils from that period of lunged fish with four libs, which is currently believed to be the fore-runner of the Modern 4-limbed beings (tetrapods).








Article: http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc99/5_22_99/bob1.htm

Also, your 2% theory is fundamentally wrong. The human population has not increased in a linear fashion at a steady 2% rate. Rather, it is growing exponentially. We went from being a rare creature to one with a very high population in a relatively short period of time. This is clearly documented by modern historians, and not just paleontologists.

It amazes me that people are willing to disregard all the findings of modern geology and paleontology, but I do admire your faith.
[/quote]

I didn't get into transition fossils, like the recent Tiktaalik. You may have heard the saying "Every time a transitional fossil is found the creationist doesn't see a gap being filled in, but sees 2 new gaps being created on either side of the new fossil" and creates an even thicker circle around his/her belief.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

The Coelacanth was believed to be extincted millions of years ago and was the missing link of fish with walking legs. It was re-discovered in 1938 and its legs were not used to walk.

Scientists also believed that "Lucy" was the missing link and they were also wrong.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> The Coelacanth was believed to be extincted millions of years ago and was the missing link of fish with walking legs. It was re-discovered in 1938 and its legs were not used to walk.
> 
> *Scientists also believed that "Lucy" was the missing link and they were also wrong.*


There is no shame in being wrong, that's what science is about.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Tinkerbelle said:


> AND wasn't the bible written by the same people who said the world was flat? People make mistakes, living your whole life by the word of an old story book with no proof is unfathomable to me.


No. The Quran says the earth is flat. The Bible says the earth is round. Isa 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"

*I belive in the ENTIRE Bible.* God created all the animals (including dinosaurs) the 5th day. You've no transistion fossils because they don't exist. One can put up all kinds of assumption without a shread of proof. That's not science.
[/quote]

both old and new testament? do you eat shellfish?
[/quote]
Don't really sure what you're asking. The Bible never says the earth is flat, old and new testament. I eat shellfish, what about it? It was given to the Israelites as a sanitary law in the old testament.


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> AND wasn't the bible written by the same people who said the world was flat? People make mistakes, living your whole life by the word of an old story book with no proof is unfathomable to me.


No. The Quran says the earth is flat. The Bible says the earth is round. Isa 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"

*I belive in the ENTIRE Bible.* God created all the animals (including dinosaurs) the 5th day. You've no transistion fossils because they don't exist. One can put up all kinds of assumption without a shread of proof. That's not science.
[/quote]

both old and new testament? do you eat shellfish?
[/quote]
Don't really sure what you're asking. The Bible never says the earth is flat, old and new testament. I eat shellfish, what about it? It was giving to the Israelites as a sanitary law in the old testament.
[/quote]

and oddly enough eating shellfish was just as big a 'sin' as being gay, or sleeping with your sister. so in theory if you're taking everything quite literally here... by eating a shrimp you're just as bad off as if you committed incest.

Before you say its just a sanitary thing and it had to do with the inability to refridgerate stuff back then... well, why is it listed EXACTLY the same way that the other aforementioned 'sins' are? so then if you ignore the no shellfish one since times have changed, does that mean we can completely ignore the 'sin' of being gay (which personally i think there is NOTHING wrong with), or the 'sin' of incest? i think the bible needs to be considered with the times it exists in. if science has the edge over it, such as in refridgeration, should we not consider other aspects of it on their case by case plausibility?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Tinkerbelle said:


> and oddly enough eating shellfish was just as big a 'sin' as being gay, or sleeping with your sister. so in theory if you're taking everything quite literally here... by eating a shrimp you're just as bad off as if you committed incest.


I'm not the best Bible scholar, please show me where in the Bible that says eating shellfish is as big a sin as gay or incest.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> and oddly enough eating shellfish was just as big a 'sin' as being gay, or sleeping with your sister. so in theory if you're taking everything quite literally here... by eating a shrimp you're just as bad off as if you committed incest.


I'm not the best Bible scholar, please show me where in the Bible that says eating shellfish is as big a sin as gay or incest.
[/quote]

Leviticus 11:4

9 These you may eat of all that are in the waters: whatever has fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, that you may eat.

10 All that don't have fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of all the living creatures that are in the waters, they are an abomination to you,


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> and oddly enough eating shellfish was just as big a 'sin' as being gay, or sleeping with your sister. so in theory if you're taking everything quite literally here... by eating a shrimp you're just as bad off as if you committed incest.


I'm not the best Bible scholar, please show me where in the Bible that says eating shellfish is as big a sin as gay or incest.
[/quote]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (Leviticus 18:22)

"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)

"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)

some of those are pretty hardcore with the throwing around of the word 'abomination'. seriously... some of these just DO NOT apply to today. check this one out about periods, i mean c'mon.... seriously?

"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Leviticus 20:18)


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## User (May 31, 2004)

But then

"Every moving thing that lives will be food for you. As the green herb, I have given everything to you" according to Genesis 9:3


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

Shellfish is quite nasty I must say.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

i thought we already established incest was ok with adam and eve?


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

I am not a paleontologist, so I have to take it on 'faith' what the paleontologists on the Discovery channel tell me. They proved their case by me with their geologic and fossil scientific evidence.

Perhaps they were wrong about the Coelacanth because the fossil fish were shallow-water specimens and the modern fish are deep-water fish 400+ million years removed from the fossils. Deep water fish left few recoverable fossils behind.

I agree with you that evolution is a theory, but I can see and understand the evidence for it, so I believe it.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

User, you've quoted laws given to the Israelites, not for everyone else.

Lev 11:2 "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying..."

Acts 10:10 "He ( Peter)became hungry and desired to eat, but while they were preparing, he fell into a trance.

11 He saw heaven opened and a certain container descending to him, like a great sheet let down by four corners on the earth,

12 in which were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild animals, reptiles, and birds of the sky.

13 A voice came to him, "Rise, Peter, kill and eat!"

14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean."

15 A voice came to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed, you must not call unclean."


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

Bullsnake said:


> I am not a paleontologist, so I have to take it on 'faith' what the paleontologists on the Discovery channel tell me. They proved their case by me with their geologic and fossil scientific evidence.
> 
> Perhaps they were wrong about the Coelacanth because the fossil fish were shallow-water specimens and the modern fish are deep-water fish 400+ million years removed from the fossils. Deep water fish left few recoverable fossils behind.
> 
> I agree with you that evolution is a theory, but I can see and understand the evidence for it, so I believe it.


exactly, where is the counter argument? evidence FOR a god not just the dismissal of evolution?


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

User said:


> But then
> 
> "Every moving thing that lives will be food for you. As the green herb, I have given everything to you" according to Genesis 9:3


shame on god contradicting him/her self like that. where was a proofreader when (s)he needed one?

and before anyone flips on higher being gender... the bible was written by 'man' and therefore holds a sexist twist wether intentional or not.


----------



## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

i was thinkin the other day about were the bible came from.

i think it was just created from people fear of the unknown

that being death, they didnt know, so they create this after

life thing to give em hope or what ever, like the sailors that

wouldnt go farther then eye site of land cause of sea monsters.

im all about evolution, thats the most logical to me any way,


----------



## User (May 31, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> But then
> 
> "Every moving thing that lives will be food for you. As the green herb, I have given everything to you" according to Genesis 9:3


shame on god contradicting him/her self like that. where was a proofreader when (s)he needed one?

and before anyone flips on higher being gender... the bible was written by 'man' and therefore holds a sexist twist wether intentional or not.
[/quote]

Youre out of line woman.


----------



## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

User said:


> User, you've quoted laws given to the Israelites, not for everyone else.
> 
> Lev 11:2 "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying..."


I thought you followed every law in the bible ?
[/quote]

Romans 6:14 "For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under LAW, but under GRACE."

Here's the rest on food

Acts 10:10 "He (Peter) became hungry and desired to eat, but while they were preparing, he fell into a trance.

11 He saw heaven opened and a certain container descending to him, like a great sheet let down by four corners on the earth,

12 in which were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild animals, reptiles, and birds of the sky.

13 A voice came to him, "Rise, Peter, kill and eat!"

14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean."

15 A voice came to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed, you must not call unclean."


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## Tinkerbelle (Oct 14, 2004)

User said:


> But then
> 
> "Every moving thing that lives will be food for you. As the green herb, I have given everything to you" according to Genesis 9:3


shame on god contradicting him/her self like that. where was a proofreader when (s)he needed one?

and before anyone flips on higher being gender... the bible was written by 'man' and therefore holds a sexist twist wether intentional or not.
[/quote]

Youre out of line woman.
[/quote]

god has to be a woman... thats why girls get pretty nifty bodies with curves and stuff, and boys get funny looking do-dads!









don't make me go raging femminist on your ass









View attachment 120204


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

IMO everyone who claims to be christian should follow the bible to the word

please can you stop avoiding my questions

1. DO you deny fossils are millions of years old, or that they came before man?
2. there were others but its 3:45 f*ck it


----------



## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

WolfFish said:


> IMO everyone who claims to be christian should follow the bible to the word
> 
> please can you stop avoiding my questions
> 
> ...


I do deny fossils are millions of years old. Here's a pic of a fossilized foot.


----------



## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> both old and new testament? do you eat shellfish?


I believe in the whole Bible, and I eat what I want

I do not feel the need to answer any of the same old lame questions that always come up in here.

I will say, though, that there are promises in the Bible about the 'new life' in Christ. 
If you have recieved those promises, I must say, the prophecy is true that Jesus 'makes all things new' and the one who experiences the promises, is a 'new creation,' walking in newness of life, and all of those questions don't mean squat anymore.
All that matters is an incredible thing happened to me, I don't care who believes or doesn't. That is not my job. The only thing I can do is tell you that Jesus Christ changed my life for the best, and opened up my eyes to the hurt I was causing myself and others. (And Him!)

People will always fall short, and let you down. But He won't. He never fails, His joy and Peace in my heart is my strength. I do not ask that anyone believes, just listen to what He has done in my life. 
Now everyone is free to make fun of me.. lol well, what you waiting for>?


----------



## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> IMO everyone who claims to be christian should follow the bible to the word
> 
> please can you stop avoiding my questions
> 
> ...


I do deny fossils are millions of years old. Here's a pic of a fossilized foot.
[/quote]

did i say ALL fossils were millions of years old. But they have been carbon dated to prove their age.


----------



## User (May 31, 2004)

Tinkerbelle said:


> But then
> 
> "Every moving thing that lives will be food for you. As the green herb, I have given everything to you" according to Genesis 9:3


shame on god contradicting him/her self like that. where was a proofreader when (s)he needed one?

and before anyone flips on higher being gender... the bible was written by 'man' and therefore holds a sexist twist wether intentional or not.
[/quote]

Youre out of line woman.
[/quote]

god has to be a woman... thats why girls get pretty nifty bodies with curves and stuff, and boys get funny looking do-dads!










don't make me go raging femminist on your ass :rasp:

View attachment 120204

[/quote]

If you believe that you really own it, who am I to argue ?

Youre wrong.


----------



## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Tinkerbelle said:


> did i say ALL fossils were millions of years old. But they have been carbon dated to prove their age.


Carbon dating is not accurate...that has been proven over and over. Scientists still argue over this especially in the young earth vs. old earth debate.

I would not rest your hat on Carbon dating. No...I do not believe fossils are millions of years old.

Can anyone say moon dust? Very humiliating moment for NASA...


----------



## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

How old do you think they are Jeff?


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

you don't have to go to church to pray but some people want to because it makes them feel more connected, or there are people who are stupid and go even when they don't want to which defeats the purpose (a church is for willing worship, if you don't wanna go one sunday i'm sure god won't mind). holding hands just makes people feel more connected with each other, its all about personal preference. jesus himself said that the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath, meaning we shouldn't be slaves to some regular worship schedule (everybody should worship as he or she sees fit in their own way). people have just forgotten some of these things and feel its obligatory. we don't really need churches either (i dont recall jesus exclusively teaching at a church or sinagogue or preaching on only a certain day) just my 2 cents


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Dinosaurs died off during the flood 3500 yrs ago.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

PastorJeff said:


> did i say ALL fossils were millions of years old. But they have been carbon dated to prove their age.


Carbon dating is not accurate...that has been proven over and over. Scientists still argue over this especially in the young earth vs. old earth debate.

I would not rest your hat on Carbon dating. No...I do not believe fossils are millions of years old.

Can anyone say moon dust? Very humiliating moment for NASA...
[/quote]

how innaccurate, wheres your proof? inncacurate by 350, 000,000 years??? how are they so precise in every study i have ever seen? If carbon dating could be proven 100% would you admit your wrong or merely reinterpret the bible again? I don't mean to sound too rude but where is your proof for believing the bible is anything more than a story? APART from faith i just want a fact.

Can you also please explain armageddon, i thought the world was going to end by now...hundreds committed suicide on the day too so it must be an extremely strong belief.


----------



## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

WolfFish said:


> did i say ALL fossils were millions of years old. But they have been carbon dated to prove their age.


Carbon dating is not accurate...that has been proven over and over. Scientists still argue over this especially in the young earth vs. old earth debate.

I would not rest your hat on Carbon dating. No...I do not believe fossils are millions of years old.

Can anyone say moon dust? Very humiliating moment for NASA...
[/quote]

how innaccurate, wheres your proof? inncacurate by 350, 000,000 years??? how are they so precise in every study i have ever seen? If carbon dating could be proven 100% would you admit your wrong or merely reinterpret the bible again? I don't mean to sound too rude but where is your proof for believing the bible is anything more than a story? APART from faith i just want a fact.

Can you also please explain armageddon, i thought the world was going to end by now...hundreds committed suicide on the day too so it must be an extremely strong belief.
[/quote]

faith isn't necessarily about evidence hence the term 'faith'. its about belief and knowing without any proof. its a personal choice.

and the date of armageddon is known to none but the father (not even jesus knows) as it is written in the book of revalations, but armageddon is to be viewed as always being spiritually at hand even if it may not happen tomorrow. at least thats how i see it. plus i don't think armageddon should be viewed w/ fear by christians(or anybody for that matter) because its the day jesus comes back and the world is made right again. too many hellfire and brimstone preaching have driven people away from the true meaning of christianity (love and compassion) and now people are fearful. its sad actully


----------



## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

McDoddridge said:


> did i say ALL fossils were millions of years old. But they have been carbon dated to prove their age.


Carbon dating is not accurate...that has been proven over and over. Scientists still argue over this especially in the young earth vs. old earth debate.

I would not rest your hat on Carbon dating. No...I do not believe fossils are millions of years old.

Can anyone say moon dust? Very humiliating moment for NASA...
[/quote]

how innaccurate, wheres your proof? inncacurate by 350, 000,000 years??? how are they so precise in every study i have ever seen? If carbon dating could be proven 100% would you admit your wrong or merely reinterpret the bible again? I don't mean to sound too rude but where is your proof for believing the bible is anything more than a story? APART from faith i just want a fact.

Can you also please explain armageddon, i thought the world was going to end by now...hundreds committed suicide on the day too so it must be an extremely strong belief.
[/quote]

faith isn't necessarily about evidence hence the term 'faith'. its about belief and knowing without any proof. its a personal choice.

and the date of armageddon is none to none but the father (not even jesus knows) as it is written in the book of revalations, but armageddon is to be viewed as always being spiritually at hand even if it may not happen tomorrow. at least thats how i see it. plus i don't think armageddon should be viewed w/ fear by christians because its the day jesus comes back and the world is made right again. too many hellfire and brimstone preaching have driven people away from the true meaning of christianity (love and compassion) and now people are fearful. its sad actully
[/quote]

yeah but thats just choosing what parts of the bible you WANT to beleive. Either follow it or don't. According tot he bible all animals were made by god they did not evolve.


----------



## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

WolfFish said:


> did i say ALL fossils were millions of years old. But they have been carbon dated to prove their age.


Carbon dating is not accurate...that has been proven over and over. Scientists still argue over this especially in the young earth vs. old earth debate.

I would not rest your hat on Carbon dating. No...I do not believe fossils are millions of years old.

Can anyone say moon dust? Very humiliating moment for NASA...
[/quote]

how innaccurate, wheres your proof? inncacurate by 350, 000,000 years??? how are they so precise in every study i have ever seen? If carbon dating could be proven 100% would you admit your wrong or merely reinterpret the bible again? I don't mean to sound too rude but where is your proof for believing the bible is anything more than a story? APART from faith i just want a fact.

Can you also please explain armageddon, i thought the world was going to end by now...hundreds committed suicide on the day too so it must be an extremely strong belief.
[/quote]

faith isn't necessarily about evidence hence the term 'faith'. its about belief and knowing without any proof. its a personal choice.

and the date of armageddon is none to none but the father (not even jesus knows) as it is written in the book of revalations, but armageddon is to be viewed as always being spiritually at hand even if it may not happen tomorrow. at least thats how i see it. plus i don't think armageddon should be viewed w/ fear by christians because its the day jesus comes back and the world is made right again. too many hellfire and brimstone preaching have driven people away from the true meaning of christianity (love and compassion) and now people are fearful. its sad actully
[/quote]

yeah but thats just choosing what parts of the bible you WANT to beleive. Either follow it or don't. According tot he bible all animals were made by god they did not evolve.
[/quote]
umm if god evolved them wouldn't that mean he still created them?


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

McDoddridge said:


> did i say ALL fossils were millions of years old. But they have been carbon dated to prove their age.


Carbon dating is not accurate...that has been proven over and over. Scientists still argue over this especially in the young earth vs. old earth debate.

I would not rest your hat on Carbon dating. No...I do not believe fossils are millions of years old.

Can anyone say moon dust? Very humiliating moment for NASA...
[/quote]

how innaccurate, wheres your proof? inncacurate by 350, 000,000 years??? how are they so precise in every study i have ever seen? If carbon dating could be proven 100% would you admit your wrong or merely reinterpret the bible again? I don't mean to sound too rude but where is your proof for believing the bible is anything more than a story? APART from faith i just want a fact.

Can you also please explain armageddon, i thought the world was going to end by now...hundreds committed suicide on the day too so it must be an extremely strong belief.
[/quote]

faith isn't necessarily about evidence hence the term 'faith'. its about belief and knowing without any proof. its a personal choice.

and the date of armageddon is none to none but the father (not even jesus knows) as it is written in the book of revalations, but armageddon is to be viewed as always being spiritually at hand even if it may not happen tomorrow. at least thats how i see it. plus i don't think armageddon should be viewed w/ fear by christians because its the day jesus comes back and the world is made right again. too many hellfire and brimstone preaching have driven people away from the true meaning of christianity (love and compassion) and now people are fearful. its sad actully
[/quote]

yeah but thats just choosing what parts of the bible you WANT to beleive. Either follow it or don't. According tot he bible all animals were made by god they did not evolve.
[/quote]
umm if god evolved them wouldn't that mean he still created them?
[/quote]

god put them on the earth 'fully evolved' like humans, in the bible they did not evolve from monkeys they wereput here

If you believe in the bible you do not beleive in evolution


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> Dinosaurs died off during the flood 3500 yrs ago.


What flood? You mean..the Noahs Ark flood?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Dinosaurs died off during the flood 3500 yrs ago.


What flood? You mean..the Noahs Ark flood?
[/quote]


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

Then why werent they saved, and why did the winged dinosaurs not die, and why werent they mentioned in ancient text/pictures etc.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

WolfFish said:


> god put them on the earth 'fully evolved' like humans, in the bible they did not evolve from monkeys they wereput here
> 
> If you believe in the bible you do not beleive in evolution


yes but here's where the fun of religion comes into play, being able to completely baffle or just annoy people based upon your absolute faith and seeming lack of logic :laugh: but honestly does it really matter what anybody believes about anything? we have no real idea of what comes next and we can only do the best we can. im a christian because i believe the bible and believe that jesus is the son of god. nothigs absolute but you've just gotta hope and pray that you're right and know you're right in your own heart. besides, jesus said many things in the old testament were flawed such as the stoning of adulterous women ("let he who is without sin cast the first stone") so it's kind of crazy to think that absolutely everything in the bible is true when jesus said you can't trust Absolutely everything.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Dinosaurs died off during the flood 3500 yrs ago.


What flood? You mean..the Noahs Ark flood?
[/quote]
:nod:
[/quote]

prove it? oh wait you can't so don't bother posting


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

WolfFish said:


> how innaccurate, wheres your proof? inncacurate by 350, 000,000 years??? how are they so precise in every study i have ever seen? If carbon dating could be proven 100% would you admit your wrong or merely reinterpret the bible again? I don't mean to sound too rude but where is your proof for believing the bible is anything more than a story? APART from faith i just want a fact.
> 
> Can you also please explain armageddon, i thought the world was going to end by now...hundreds committed suicide on the day too so it must be an extremely strong belief.


How crazy?!? Why would I toss everything I belive because of a man made system based on the degrading method of carbon? That is simply crazy.



> The rate of decay of 14C is such that half of an amount will convert back to 14N in 5,730 years (plus or minus 40 years). This is the 'half-life.' So, in two half-lives, or 11,460 years, only one-quarter will be left. Thus, if the amount of 14C relative to 12C in a sample is one-quarter of that in living organisms at present, then it has a theoretical age of 11,460 years. Anything over about 50,000 years old, should theoretically have no detectable 14C left. That is why radiocarbon dating cannot give millions of years.


Don't trust me...look it up. Putting your faith in 14C is just as crazy as me putting my faith in a man that died on the cross and rose again.

Please read what I am typing....You want fact. You are not going to get it. At some point it comes down to faith. Fact and faith do not go hand in hand. If there is fact, there is no need for faith. I am not trying to convince you to believe...just answering a question.

If you are so big on fact, then you really have to look at 14C...it is not fact. Not after 50k years...then it is faith.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Then why werent they saved, and why did the winged dinosaurs not die, and why werent they mentioned in ancient text/pictures etc.


You're absolutely correct. Majority of dinosaurs died during the flood and Noah saved some. Due to the size of the dinosaur and heavier atmospheric pressure after the flood, the lungs of the dinosaurs can't withstand the pressure and slowly died off.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

WolfFish said:


> Dinosaurs died off during the flood 3500 yrs ago.


What flood? You mean..the Noahs Ark flood?
[/quote]
:nod:
[/quote]

prove it? oh wait you can't so don't bother posting








[/quote]

and you can't prove it didn't happen so don't go trashing his beliefs. nearly everything about religion is speculation so don't act all "holier than thou" if you'll excuse the expression


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

WolfFish said:


> Dinosaurs died off during the flood 3500 yrs ago.


What flood? You mean..the Noahs Ark flood?
[/quote]
:nod:
[/quote]

prove it? oh wait you can't so don't bother posting








[/quote]
I'm not here to argue and the question was directed to PastorJeff.

The tracks in The Paluxy in Tx showed that the foot prints of dinosaur and man together.

Ancient Indian people of drawings of dinosaurs which they saw with their own eyes just few hundred yrs ago. They's no way they could have such details without being eyewitness. They don't have the knowledge to exacavate and know precisely what dinosaurs look like unless they're eyewitness.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

WolfFish said:


> Dinosaurs died off during the flood 3500 yrs ago.


What flood? You mean..the Noahs Ark flood?
[/quote]
:nod:
[/quote]

prove it? oh wait you can't so don't bother posting








[/quote]
Wolf...prove it didn't happen. Prove that the mixed up fossil records came from some freak evolutionary accident. In May 2002 National Geographic did an article on the evidence of a world wide flood. It was published and taken serious by scientists all over. This is not a Christian magazine, it is not owned somewhere down the line by a Christian organization. Yet they came to illustrate the evidence of a world wide flood.

You keep crying out for PROOF and you want people to PROVE things...but the very foundation of what you put your faith in is not proveable. It is all conjecture at this point.

But back to my question...can you prove it didn't happen?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Here's a carving of ancient Inca stone.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Then why werent they saved, and why did the winged dinosaurs not die, and why werent they mentioned in ancient text/pictures etc.


Very good question...and to be honest...we don't know. There are all kinds of theories about what happened. But the stance I always take is...we don't know. The bible does not say.

What is my opinoin? Scientists believe that there was somekind of earthwide event that caused a flood. Christian and secular agree on this (for the most part). This event would have made the earth's climate completely different. Could this have been the seperation of pangea? Some say yes, and some say no.

The climate then would not have been able to sustain the life of the dino's. They needed a much different climate. The ones that lived are the ones that were able to adapt to their surroundings. The alligator, the hila monster, the komodo dragon, thousands of water species are still alive today (many we don't even know about yet)

But this is MY opinion. And I am no scientist.

Good question Dannyboy...the main answer is...we just don't know.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> Here's a carving of ancient Inca stone.


lol is that a f*cking triceratops!?!


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

McDoddridge said:


> Here's a carving of ancient Inca stone.


lol is that a f*cking triceratops!?!
[/quote]
There're 1100 of these similar stones dated 500-1500 AD.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

McDoddridge said:


> Here's a carving of ancient Inca stone.


lol is that a f*cking triceratops!?!
[/quote]
It is believed to be...and this was verified in secular socieity as being authentic.

Good example rchan...very good! I had read about the stone...but had never seen a pic of it.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

i am not a scientist so i do not know all the evidence but i would bet i can prove it didn't happen far more than you can prove it did. For a start did noah put every tiny insect on his boat? Don't be so bloody stupid there are thousands of species yet to be discovered. Was his ark as big as an island? How could he make such a thing? Where are the remains.

I have lost sight of what this thread was about, learing why people have faith without any fact and i think its turned to religion bashing. So back on track.

Please explain armageddon, how if all life came from 2 of each sepcies we and all animals haven't suffered greatly from all the inbreeding.

Also, why in the bible do god and jesus do so many miracles, plagues, floods etc then stop. Why hasn't he done anything else? Do you still go to heaven if you don't believe in god?


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

McDoddridge said:


> Here's a carving of ancient Inca stone.


lol is that a f*cking triceratops!?!
[/quote]

http://www.ufoarea.com/aas_icastones.html heres some more info on the stones and mentions the dinosaurs in it.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

The biggest dinosaur egg found was 40" in lenght. A baby dinosaur and any baby animals can fit easily to the ark. Dimensions of ark is L-450', W-75' and H-45'.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> The biggest dinosaur egg found was 40" in lenght. A baby dinosaur and any baby animals can fit easily to the ark. Dimensions of ark is L-450', W-75' and H-45'.


yes but we are talking about everything living species from every continent, every tiny insect of which there are hndreds of millions of species, dinosaurs??...all collected and kept alive on a boat? Its just not possible unless your answer is god did it but in the bible one man did it all. However maybe noah existed and he collected what he thought was every speices which at the time wouldn't of been many. This would explain the story in the book more scientifically and the flood would just of been that land mass not the world.

Yes pastorjeff i want a few facts about why people have faith in the bible. Maybe contradictory but why beleive so strongly in a book without reason? If you tell me why the bible must of been sent by god or whatever it was, i will have a lot more respect for christianty


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

WolfFish said:


> Don't be so bloody stupid...


Nice wolf...nice.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

WolfFish said:


> i am not a scientist so i do not know all the evidence but i would bet i can prove it didn't happen far more than you can prove it did. For a start did noah put every tiny insect on his boat? Don't be so bloody stupid there are thousands of species yet to be discovered. Was his ark as big as an island? How could he make such a thing? Where are the remains.
> 
> I have lost sight of what this thread was about, learing why people have faith without any fact and i think its turned to religion bashing. So back on track.
> 
> ...


ok, armageddon is the end of the world as we know it, before the rebirth of a whole new and ideal earth. clearly we haven't suffered from inbreeding if thats the case, and if you read up on it you will see that there have been miracles done by god even in recent times. and many people believe that you won't go to heavan if you dont believe in god, but the way i see it is like this. christianity is kind of like getting to know god if you will. and when you die if you know god well enough he'll invite you into his home if you don't know him well maybe he won't let you in. hell is a lack of god, if you reject god then you would perhaps go to some form of hell (i don't think the hellfire w/ be there tho lol) although after death there would still be a chance to be redeemed, and a religious text (i forget which but wuill try to find source) says that the souls of the damned will be saved by the prayers of those in heavan. so there hope for all of us yet.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Over 350 genera of dinosaurs have been discovered and named so far, not millions.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

alright night all, ill check up on this thread in the morning. keep up the good work jeff and chan. also here is a picture of what many believe to be noahs ark (the structure is made of fossilized wood i believe) http://bibleprobe.com/ark-big.jpg


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

WolfFish said:


> If you tell me why the bible must of been sent by god or whatever it was, i will have a lot more respect for christianty


Your missing one small little point...I don't care if you respect Christianity. All that matters is that I respect Christianity. I don't care if you worship a spoon...that is up to you. Faith is an individual choice. I don't have to respect or agree with your stance, because it's YOUR stance.

You want fact and stomp your feet over faith...can't help you here. Like I have said 1000's of times before....you can't prove faith. If you could, it would not be faith.


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## IHadSexWithAllTheseFish (Sep 10, 2005)

WolfFish said:


> I am an atheist and i can't work out why peple pray or go to church. If God is everywhere then why go to a church? if he knows everything why can he only suddenly hear you when your palms touch? More importantly WHY would you call god wrong by asking him to change something (ie, save your family from cancer or something) when he is perfect and never wrong etc, has a plan..
> 
> Please just sensible answers i am just curious. Also in the story of adam and eve who it says in the bible wree the first 2 people. What happens next? They have children but then what? Incest??


Sorry, I didn't read the rest of the thread, so I may be repeating stuff.

I am a Catholic. I believe that God came to earth as Christ, I believe this on the word of hundreds of early Christian martyrs who died to spread what they heard, with nothing to gain but the spreading of the Good News. I am a Catholic, and go to church to pray, because I believe that Jesus started the Church (now the Catholic Church, after the reformation) and put the Pope, the succesor to the apostles, in charge.

The Church tells me to go to Services (as do the Ten Commandments) and they tell me to recieve the Eucharist (the Body and Blood of Chirst). These are the reasons I go to church. I don't always fold my hands when I pray, but do so, usually, while in public, both as a sign of respect to God and to let others know that I am praying (sort of a silent profession of faith).

Also, a good Christian usually will pray to heal someone of cancer because we are human and weak and our love for others is often greater than our love of God. Usually, though, a Christian will pray "Dear Lord, please [fill in the blank], but you're will be done" as Jesus did before His Death.

And, yes, after Adam and Eve came incest. But that wasn't necisarilly uncommon then, nor is it now throught the world now. Who knows, maybe God's Grace was involved to sort out the genetic nightmare.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Mc dod.....

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Jesus says there's flame in hell and no escape.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> Mc dod.....
> 
> Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
> 
> ...


bummer, i guess thank for the heads up


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

McDoddridge said:


> bummer, i guess thank for the heads up


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

illnino said:


> pulling back to the original intent or rather question of the thread. people go to church because congragating with other like minded people reinforces and helps to educate what is being celebrated. This is a global truth that we apply to just about every aspect of our lives and learning. How much easer is it to learn in a classroom enviroment then to study on your own? In the classroom you have the ablity to discuss and review with others to come to a better understanding.
> 
> Why do we pray? and does god answer our prayers? No. He does not take his time to change the fate of your life. not in a direct individual manner. To think that we are that significant is rediculas. to expect god to handel the smaller aspects of your world are a tad bit arrogant.
> What would make ones prayer take priority?
> However faith is a powerfull thing. and the mind has alot more ablity then we realize. and the determination to live that faith gives some people allows them to not give up their fight aganst their Illness. and sometimes gives them the strenght to pull thru.


I agree with you statement on group fellowship, but I think it goes deeper to the core of Christian belief, simply that "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matt. 18:20) 
How you can be so sure that God doesn't answer prayers seems a bit brazen, but to each his own.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

PastorJeff said:


> If you tell me why the bible must of been sent by god or whatever it was, i will have a lot more respect for christianty


Your missing one small little point...I don't care if you respect Christianity. All that matters is that I respect Christianity. I don't care if you worship a spoon...that is up to you. Faith is an individual choice. I don't have to respect or agree with your stance, because it's YOUR stance.

You want fact and stomp your feet over faith...can't help you here. Like I have said 1000's of times before....you can't prove faith. If you could, it would not be faith.
[/quote]

neither do i care about your beliefs or anyone elses but i am trying to take the time to understand. My question was not why you have faith in the stories of the bible, but why trust that the bible wasn't merely a story. It is not a secret that it was written by humans, not god, and by humans who have never even met for some parts. I do believe there is some truth behind it but stories get exaggerated etc. But i think this thread has come to an end as my questions have no been answered, they have been avoicded. Where do pblack people come from according to the bible, why hasn't the world evnded like the bible predicts, mythical creatures in the bible, other theroies beleived at the time are in the bible which have now been ignored. What about the sexism, incest etc that technically should still be followed if you follow the bible....but you don't, you choose what you want from it. Why do you think america is christian, india are hindus...because its how we were brought up. I would never argue again if someone was born away from religion and started to believe in god but that won't happen. Also, if you can tell me why you follow christianity and not other religions then you yourself should be an atheist in my eyes.

Thanks for all the replies, sorry for my rudeness too but i can't help it i get frustrated on this topic but i wanted to ask the questions that have been bothering me. Some answers were really interesting about the dinosaurs etc and those drawings are amazing i wonder what the explanation for that is? Maybe i will never know but i won't jump to the supernatural conclusions without proof, i am just not one for faith. I hope this argument is settled one day whether i am right or wrong, it seems we must be close to a big discovery that rocks either science or religion with life on another planet, fossils that show evolution etc


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

alright every1 im making my exit. (sorry to make it so dramatic but i've been looking for a proper time to use this gif) lol. also sorry to wolffish if this detracts from the overall thread.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Wolf,

No matter how I answer you, you're not going to believe as evident in this thread. Therefore, I'll save my time and hold my peace.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

Fargo said:


> pulling back to the original intent or rather question of the thread. people go to church because congragating with other like minded people reinforces and helps to educate what is being celebrated. This is a global truth that we apply to just about every aspect of our lives and learning. How much easer is it to learn in a classroom enviroment then to study on your own? In the classroom you have the ablity to discuss and review with others to come to a better understanding.
> 
> Why do we pray? and does god answer our prayers? No. He does not take his time to change the fate of your life. not in a direct individual manner. To think that we are that significant is rediculas. to expect god to handel the smaller aspects of your world are a tad bit arrogant.
> What would make ones prayer take priority?
> However faith is a powerfull thing. and the mind has alot more ablity then we realize. and the determination to live that faith gives some people allows them to not give up their fight aganst their Illness. and sometimes gives them the strenght to pull thru.


I agree with you statement on group fellowship, but I think it goes deeper to the core of Christian belief, simply that "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matt. 18:20) 
How you can be so sure that God doesn't answer prayers seems a bit brazen, but to each his own.
[/quote]

Yes of course it is indeed a core belief. I was just generalizing it to make it be understood easier. on a more rational level rather then to have it as simply a belief and a "because god says so" kinda example.

Wolf- the truth of the matter is you should have lots of questions. This means you have a genuine desire for knowlage on the subject. That at least shows that your openminded to at least getting understanding. But to be honest the answers you seek are really hard to fully explain simply thru the internet. People spend their whole lives to come to a better understanding of the why and how's of the bible. 
If you are seriously interested and want to learn in a non confrontational manner. You should seriously seek out some local people that maybe you can sit down and speak with on a more personal level.

As Jeff pointed out. no one can make you belive if you are unwilling to. So you simply have to open your mind to the possiblity. All the answers are literally laid out in the text. you simply must look for them. they are not alaways plain as day.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

Im so glad my scool focused on Natural science and not religion, (we could choose between christiany and human ethics ( learn allitle about every religion and etics) but we had to learn about Darwin. Some of you realy need to read this book . Short history about nearly everythin by Bill Bryson.

im mortified by some of youre believs, but at the same time i dont care science will prevail and religion either disapper or destroy us all.

But i also feel people should be free to believe in what they want, so scientist shouldnt hinder believers and vice versa..

and btw i realy hope im alive when they figure it all out...


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

C0Rey said:


> Im so glad my scool focused on Natural science and not religion, (we could choose between christiany and human ethics ( learn allitle about every religion and etics) but we had to learn about Darwin.


Same here :nod: 
Without intending to insult anyone here, I've read some pretty darn ridiculous things in this topic. I'm not going to argue about them though, because, and as so often Jeff said it best: it's about faith, personal belief, and not about the universal thruth (which science nor religion is!!!)
I believe my things, I am educated according to rational scientific reasoning and logic, and for that very simple reason I cannot accept many of the stories from the Bible. But if others do so, I respect that: if it makes them happy, the more power to them! (not literally, obviously







) But my tolerance is only in place for those that give me an equal treatment, and respect what I believe in - they may disagree or even dismiss it, but they'll have to respect my choice to believe in scientific logic and reasoning. Those who don't are not even worth my time/attention - quid pro quo...


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Judazzz said:


> Same here :nod:
> Without intending to insult anyone here, I've read some pretty darn ridiculous things in this topic. I'm not going to argue about them though, because, and as so often Jeff said it best: it's about faith, personal belief, and not about the universal thruth (which science nor religion is!!!)
> I believe my things, I am educated according to rational scientific reasoning and logic, and for that very simple reason I cannot accept many of the stories from the Bible. But if others do so, I respect that: if it makes them happy, the more power to them! (not literally, obviously
> 
> ...


Judazzz -

I could not have said it better myself. When I was younger (my early 20's) I would make ever attempt to argue someone it believing. Guess how often I succeeded? About never. Why? Because in the process of touting my faith I was setting aside some of the most core issues in scripture...and that is how we love (or treat) one another. If you read scripture you will NEVER see Jesus Christ fighting or arguing someone into the kingdom.

For example...the rich young ruler came to Christ asking him how he could gain eternal life. Christ responded with an answer...and the rich young ruler said "Nope...not for me" and walked away. You do not see Jesus running after him saying "Aw...comon' buddy...accept it! Here is why you need to believe...here is why what I am saying is the truth...here is...)

Nothing of the sort. He let him walk away.

I live by that in my life today. If someone wants to discuss what I believe, I am 100% up for that. But until they want to, I will let my life be an example of what I believe. Not some whimpy, mamby pamby, puss belief...but a belief for the strong of heart. I know many won't believe. But for people like myself, and DippyEggs...we FAUGHT to get where we are in our personal lives and in our faith.

So like you said Judazzz..."my tolerance is only in place for those that give me an equal treatment, and respect what I believe in - they may disagree or even dismiss it, but they'll have to respect my choice to believe in scientific logic and reasoning. Those who don't are not even worth my time/attention - quid pro quo..."

Well said my friend...well said. Don't forget, you still owe me a non-alcoholic beverage in an establishment that serves alcoholic drinks! Not sure when that will happen...but someday!


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> Mc dod.....
> 
> Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
> 
> ...


One thing I dont understand about these threads and in general my convorsations in the past with devout Christians is the use of scripture to try and prove things. Just because it is in a book doesnt make it true, especially because its a book of faith. One could say the exact same thing about evolution... "Here's quotes from Darwin's theory, someone published it so you have to believe it."

As a Catholic and a religious skeptic or VERY casual believer, I enjoy the discussions about Christianity and its validity on certain points, but it drives me crazy when people resort to quoting scripture and expecting me to believe it. I think scripture is the most ridiculous sounding thing, and I think using it as a source of "proof" is crazy.

I believe in God, and I think their is a heaven. I dont think I need to go to Church to be a good person, and I dont beleive in MOST of the stories of the bible, including the ark, Moses splitting the sea, Adam and Eve, Jesus turning water to wine, or any of the other incredible stories. I think they are stories, just like stories told consistently in tribal cultures. They are there to convey a message, not tell truth. If you honestly expect me to believe some guy got 2 of every animal onto a boat, floated them around through a flood of the entire planet, then let them off, they all successfully bred, and recreated populations of their species, then your nuts. I think that is WAY beyond far fetched and downright impossible for me to believe. But I do think their is a message to the story, and that is the reason it was written.

I dont think Adam and Eve were real people, I think we evolved over millions of years from a common primate ancestor, just like other species of animals did. Adam and Eve are a story that conveys a message. Without going into details etc, the message is obviously to follow instructions and not get tempted by evils, etc. I wont be believing that 2 people were "created" and just suddenly appeared on earth, and then started making kids like incestuous rabbits until we had a human population. By the same token I dont think Jesus went "Hocus pocus was water, now its wine! Take that David Copperfield!" Its a story, thats it.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

rchan11 said:


> Then why werent they saved, and why did the winged dinosaurs not die, and why werent they mentioned in ancient text/pictures etc.


You're absolutely correct. Majority of dinosaurs died during the flood and Noah saved some. Due to the size of the dinosaur and heavier atmospheric pressure after the flood, the lungs of the dinosaurs can't withstand the pressure and slowly died off.
[/quote]

What about the ninja turtles?

Jokes, very interesting topic tho. I hadn't even thought of that as an answer to be honest, and tho I dont beleive it at all, I respect your opinion. I will have to catch up on the rest of this thread tonight.


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## WhiteLineRacer (Jul 13, 2004)

God... nice thought maybe but a little too convenient.

I wonder what would happen to the next chap who thought he was Gods son?

Anyway I believe there may have been a Jesus who walked around and spread some great sounding ideas but I dont belive in Gods.

If there is a god he is one sick


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

I actually appreciate these types of threads in the fact that it has brought me to a better place in my faith.. Thanks everyone.

I remember when I first came to faith.. There was no way I could stop from what I thought was 'sharing my faith' simply because I could not contain the joy I was recieving!
But now, thanks to time for reflection and prayer, and people's reactions, I now understand about how people are in a different state of mind, and had different life experiences, and can not readily accept everything you can tell them, especially about faith.

I will never stop telling people what Jesus has done for me, but the way I go about it will hopefully continue to grow, and extend from a place in my heart that shows how much I truly cherish my relationship with Him..


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## mr_rob_boto (Aug 31, 2003)

I beleive there is a God, no one will change my mind, I think some animals do evolve over time(some get created by God for his own reasons).
and I would like to believe "Every moving thing that lives will be food for you. As the green herb, I have given everything to you" according to Genesis 9:3 lets me smoke ganja without worrying about burning in eternal hell fire once I die.

The thought of complete nothingness after I die is just really unsettleing to me...


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

Dinosaurs were not killed in the flood they were not alive in the time of modern man. because that would put their existance within the last 10,000 years. and we all know that they have been long since dead by millions of years.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

let just say there is a psychologist that went throught life and school ect to become a doctor but never heard of any type of religon just about mental health ect and a religous person walked into there office and started going off about there religon they would be certifiably crazy. its like a total OCD about a book of stories, i consider my self to eb a logic practical person and religon is the most illogical impractical and not to mention contradictory and misused thing in the history of man..

it goes against sience, human nature and its self.. all religons claim to be peacful and accepting and tollerant but all the majority of them are the reason of most wars in our history, where is the tollerance in that?



ESPMike said:


> one thing I dont understand about these threads and in general my convorsations in the past with devout Christians is the use of scripture to try and prove things. Just because it is in a book doesnt make it true, especially because its a book of faith. One could say the exact same thing about evolution... "Here's quotes from Darwin's theory, someone published it so you have to believe it."
> 
> As a Catholic and a religious skeptic or VERY casual believer, I enjoy the discussions about Christianity and its validity on certain points, but it drives me crazy when people resort to quoting scripture and expecting me to believe it. I think scripture is the most ridiculous sounding thing, and I think using it as a source of "proof" is crazy.
> 
> ...


QFTMFT


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

So do you have any form of spirituality in your life, nismo?


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> So do you have any form of spirituality in your life, nismo?


not really and personally i dont feel that im missing out on anything..

i feel that my life is far simpler and more enjoyable with out having to live by a bunch of bullshit rules created by cults to maintain control over people thousands of years ago.. i think that relgion has a role to teach youth how to treat each other but its childish to grasp onto these myths and stories and hold them to such a high truth over all other fact.. or maybe some people are just stupid and need to be controlled like the sheep they are so they can be a acceptable productive part of there cult..

ultimately though religons problems out weigh it benifits when it leads to wars over a difference in belifes.. like the outrage of the islamic people over the pope reading a thousand year old text that does nothing but point out the truth of the islamic peoples violent hatred for those that do not share there belifes..


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

This is one of the most profound statements on religion I've ever read, since it justifies the religious and condemns the hypocrites at the same time:



> The third filter precluding rational thought is conventional religion. This lens is the most convoluted. Religious people believe what they are told. They are conditioned not to question God, authority, or tradition. If you are religious, chances are you are comforted by illusions, ones that are in *irreconcilable conflict with the divine revelation that forms the basis of your faith.*


In other words, a divine revelation is the foundation of faith, and then man takes over and adulterates the original intent. That is why an honestly devout Jew or Christian believes that their scriptures are *divinely inspired*; but, that many of the literal references respecting racism, killing, homophobia, etc. is more a statement on the human condition and its' perception of the divine.


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## nelsong6969 (Jul 26, 2004)

i think religions were just made up so people have something to believe in and make them feel better about things like death and feel better thinking someone is watching out for them.

if god was real and so perfect like people say he is why is there all the bad things in the world?


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

nismo driver said:


> This is one of the most profound statements on religion I've ever read, since it justifies the religious and condemns the hypocrites at the same time:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why not apply this to Buddhism, Hinduism or Islam. All of these "faiths" have solid spiritual foundation, despite what man has done to alter the meanings/perceptions.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

before this thread comes toa complete close can someone finally answer my questions

Where do black people come from according to the bible? Why hasn't the world ended like the bible predicts? what about mythical creatures in the bible? other theroies beleived at the time are in the bible which have now been ignored? What about the sexism, incest etc that technically should still be followed if you follow the bible?


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

WolfFish said:


> before this thread comes toa complete close can someone finally answer my questions
> 
> Where do black people come from according to the bible? Why hasn't the world ended like the bible predicts? what about mythical creatures in the bible? other theroies beleived at the time are in the bible which have now been ignored? What about the sexism, incest etc that technically should still be followed if you follow the bible?


Races- stem from the building of the tower of babalyon. The original people were of color. Consider the area that the bible had come from.

Incest- No longer nessacary since there are plenty of people to breed with. in early days where picking were slim it was a nesseccity.

Mythical creatures- They were the offspring of fallen angels that had raped humans. created creatures called nephlem. wiped out in the floods.

End of world- The bible did not say a specific date that it would end. Jsut that it would follow a series of events. some of that have already come. Don't be so impatient. Think of this as time for you to come to terms with your faith before the end.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

BlackSunshine said:


> before this thread comes toa complete close can someone finally answer my questions
> 
> Where do black people come from according to the bible? Why hasn't the world ended like the bible predicts? what about mythical creatures in the bible? other theroies beleived at the time are in the bible which have now been ignored? What about the sexism, incest etc that technically should still be followed if you follow the bible?


Races- stem from the building of the tower of babalyon. The original people were of color. Consider the area that the bible had come from.

Incest- No longer nessacary since there are plenty of people to breed with. in early days where picking were slim it was a nesseccity.

Mythical creatures- They were the offspring of fallen angels that had raped humans. created creatures called nephlem. wiped out in the floods.

*End of world- The bible did not say a specific date that it would end. Jsut that it would follow a series of events. some of that have already come. Don't be so impatient. Think of this as time for you to come to terms with your faith before the end.*
[/quote]

this is the thing about religon that bothers me alot, "the bible sayt the end will come when these things happen" well people that belive in this are the ones that wil make those things happen. everyone that belives is watching and waiting for these vague events so katrina happens people make claims like its gods punishemnt for this or that, war in the middle east has some symbolic religous meaning or whatever..

its all bullshit, that might be the end of humanity because of our own self destruction partially because of our belifes of "the end of the world" but the end will be from climate change as the plant continues to evolve or from a meteror or comet..


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

End World *will* happen. Heres how:

The current species of Humanoids will slowly begin to kill itself. Instead of putting money into medical research and education, they will put money into war and weapons. Eventually, there will be huge genocides, people will start to die of every type of virus you can think of and they will be too self-centered to realize it. Thier own opinion will be "THE WORD" and every other race or religious and political group will be looked at as enemies of the state, and they will fight and fight.

Meanwhile, a group of humans will slowly evolve. They will have the capicity to love, and to find peace. They will avoid conflict, stress and will progress while the lower species of human slowly kills itself off. The new species of humanoid will be stronger (because they will actually take care of themselves, and they will have the knowledge of how to avoid stress and live peacefully) and will live longer.

Maybe this will happen a thousand yers from now, maybe it will begin tommorow. Maybe its already happening in some corner of the world, and we are just too blind and too selfish and cynical to see it. Regardless, end times will happen for this species of humans, and those unwilling to move forward will be left behind for later evolutions to dig up.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> End World *will* happen. Heres how:
> 
> The current species of Humanoids will slowly begin to kill itself. Instead of putting money into *medical research* and education, they will put money into war and weapons. Eventually, there will be huge genocides, people will start to die of every type of virus you can think of and they will be too self-centered to realize it. Thier own opinion will be "THE WORD" and every other race or religious and political group will be looked at as enemies of the state, and they will fight and fight.
> 
> ...


ever consider that "medical research" and fighting disease is working against mother nature or gods will? the law of nature is that teh strong survive to ensure a healthy gene pool. well so much for that now that doctors areteh ones that control who lives and dies. also look at the flu vaccine insanity, every year now its hype up more and more to get the vaccine (of course the pharmacutical companies make bank) one of the biggest reasons people need the vaccine is because of the vaccine it self cause the flu to mutate and become strong or harder to fight.. we are our own worst enemies.. trying to control life is a messy pile of doo to step in ..


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

> ever consider that "medical research" and fighting disease is working against mother nature or gods will? the law of nature is that teh strong survive to ensure a healthy gene pool. well so much for that now that doctors areteh ones that control who lives and dies. also look at the flu vaccine insanity, every year now its hype up more and more to get the vaccine (of course the pharmacutical companies make bank) one of the biggest reasons people need the vaccine is because of the vaccine it self cause the flu to mutate and become strong or harder to fight.. we are our own worst enemies.. trying to control life is a messy pile of doo to step in ..


So true man, good point.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

nismo driver said:


> this is the thing about religon that bothers me alot, "the bible sayt the end will come when these things happen" well people that belive in this are the ones that wil make those things happen. everyone that belives is watching and waiting for these vague events so katrina happens people make claims like its gods punishemnt for this or that, war in the middle east has some symbolic religous meaning or whatever..
> 
> its all bullshit, that might be the end of humanity because of our own self destruction partially because of our belifes of "the end of the world" but the end will be from climate change as the plant continues to evolve or from a meteror or comet..


And thats your right not to belive. But thats not the point of this topic. He wants the answers that those that do belive have. not your opinion of why its all BS. 
The problem with religions is its people. Not the basis of their beliefs. Everyone wants to be part of "The" time. So they attribute the events in the bible to events to be represented by their time. Thats simply human nature.

and people thinking that things like Katrina are "the wrath of god" is just plain ignorance. Again this stems from a poor understanding of the biblical word. you will find most people that think that way are from poorly educated areas and generally tend to be the type of people that don't actually have solid knowlage or understanding of the biblical word (or things in general)(the same people that claim that GWB is responsible for the hurricane or that it was a conspircay aganst the black people.). So effectivly you are looking to the worst possible denominator to base your objective opinion on religion rather then those that are for solid faith and have a more solidified education on the subject.

he other problem with those of non faith seem to expect a solid answer something they can hold in their hand before they belive or allow others to belive. Frankly theres noone here on this earth that can provide more answers then what is there. physical proof that can be coincided with events in the bible. But even with these proofs they want more and more. But it is called faith for a reason. If it were so simple as giving you Gods phone number then it would be called.. well I don't know what it would be called. But that would defeat the whole point of faith. Not all faith is blind.


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## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

Prayer-fury.com


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Wow hard to believe this thread hasn't been closed yet. I enjoyed the discussion and harmless joking. ('way I seen it)



DiPpY eGgS said:


> I actually appreciate these types of threads in the fact that it has brought me to a better place in my faith.. Thanks everyone.
> 
> I remember when I first came to faith.. There was no way I could stop from what I thought was 'sharing my faith' simply because I could not contain the joy I was recieving!
> But now, thanks to time for reflection and prayer, and people's reactions, I now understand about how people are in a different state of mind, and had different life experiences, and can not readily accept everything you can tell them, especially about faith.
> ...


I appreciate these types of threads also. Similar to you these threads seem to increase my view of the world and confirm my position.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

User said:


> I actually appreciate these types of threads in the fact that it has brought me to a better place in my faith.. Thanks everyone.
> 
> I remember when I first came to faith.. There was no way I could stop from what I thought was 'sharing my faith' simply because I could not contain the joy I was recieving!
> But now, thanks to time for reflection and prayer, and people's reactions, I now understand about how people are in a different state of mind, and had different life experiences, and can not readily accept everything you can tell them, especially about faith.
> ...


I appreciate these types of threads also. Similar to you these threads seem to increase my view of the world and confirm my position.









[/quote]
I don't think faith is the problem
I think that we are the problem. I am in no way perfect, I think all of you can vouch for that lol.. (and everyone that knows me) We can not make anyone believe anything they don't want to believe. But we seem to always want to be right, and prove OUR point, and say how enlightened WE are.. I mean it is pure selfishness, and arrogance.
I'm totally guilty too. Selfishness doesn't help our relationships with each other. It isolates us. Among lots of other things in my life that I want to improve on, I want to learn more and more to be less selfish, so I do not pridefully protect my views on anything..

It is simply a bad testimony.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

-thinks praying is overrated-


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

are churches completely self-funding. Do they ever get money from the government for land or to pay the priests wages or is it all from donations? and who are those religious people who knock on peoples doors, jehovahs witnesses? why do they do that? and finally what is the difference between a catholic and a christian, my entire knowledge of catholics is from family guy. 'you bad child and thats concentrated evil coming out of you'


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

nismo driver said:


> let just say there is a psychologist that went throught life and school ect to become a doctor but never heard of any type of religon just about mental health ect and a religous person walked into there office and started going off about there religon they would be certifiably crazy. its like a total OCD about a book of stories, i consider my self to eb a logic practical person and religon is the most illogical impractical and not to mention contradictory and misused thing in the history of man..
> 
> it goes against sience, human nature and its self.. all religons claim to be peacful and accepting and tollerant but all the majority of them are the reason of most wars in our history, where is the tollerance in that?
> 
> QFTMFT


yah, if a doctor went through school never knowing a black person or that they even exist and one day a black guy walks into his office he'd be like "WTF you're messed up bad". basically you're example was terrible because everything in life has to be taken in context.


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

ESPMike said:


> One thing I dont understand about these threads and in general my convorsations in the past with devout Christians is the use of scripture to try and prove things. Just because it is in a book doesnt make it true, especially because its a book of faith. One could say the exact same thing about evolution... "Here's quotes from Darwin's theory, someone published it so you have to believe it."
> 
> As a Catholic and a religious skeptic or VERY casual believer, I enjoy the discussions about Christianity and its validity on certain points, but it drives me crazy when people resort to quoting scripture and expecting me to believe it. I think scripture is the most ridiculous sounding thing, and I think using it as a source of "proof" is crazy.
> 
> ...


Wow, great post









Like Dippy and User said, I enjoy these kinds of topics (not always tpo engage actively, sometimes just to read other people's points of views). It indeed strengthens my own beliefs and the decisions I made in live. But at the same time, although I have my own opinions on the matter, there's also a lot to be learned from others - even if they follow other ways of reasoning, disagreeing with them doesn't mean it's all BS what they are saying. I'm 100% sure that, even though I'm a non-believer and someone who follows scientific reasoning, I can learn a lot about my world and even myself by listening to those people that think differently. They won't be able to convince me, let alone to convert me, but they can most definitely enrich my own knowledge and view of the world and other people (there are numberous, mostly moral and ethical, issues written in the Bible or other holy scriptures I do agree with - some of them I'm familiar with, some I am not) - that in my opinion is the great value of topics like this (and that's why it's great to see that it hasn't been derailed or wrecked by senseless argueing and bickering).


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

WolfFish said:


> Other theroies beleived at the time are in the bible which have now been ignored? What about the sexism, incest etc that technically should still be followed if you follow the bible?


What has been ignored? Incest has never been said to be o.k. So I am not sure where you are getting that from. Are you saying this because of the start of Adam and Eve? If that is the case, I am not sure why you are assuming that incest was the method that took place. We need to be very careful "filling in the holes" where scripture is silent. Just because we don't know how people got on the earth does not mean that the answer is incest.

Sexism? That still goes on today. Alot of this depends on the culture that you live in. Again, be very careful taking cultural norms and saying that they need to be valid because of the Old Testament. No where in the O.T. do you see Christ approving of sexism...nowhere. There were roles that each sex filled, but that was cultural...not biblical. Don't confuse the two.

Remember...there is a HUGE difference in the Old Testament vs. the New Testament. While they both go together, there is a different emphasis on them both. One is governed by the law and the other is founded on grace. It would take pages to explain this...but the bottom line is that when Christ died on the cross we now live under that grace. We don't have to live by the law making sacrafices and the likes...there are no longer the restrictions of shellfish that Tink brought up (unless you are Jewish).

Hope that helps. I am not trying to sway your beliefs...just answer some questions. Again, I hope this helps. If you have further questions...toss them in, and I will do my best to answer them.

Take care Wolf...


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## shaas3 (Sep 10, 2006)

I also appreciate this type of stimulating convo. No matter what side your on, it still makes you stop and think.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2006)

Are there really sides tho? No, only people, searching for faith.


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## shaas3 (Sep 10, 2006)

I think everyone who is athiest is done searching though.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2006)

Athiesm in itself is a faith. You are having faith that what you see is it, that everything can be explained through logic and numbers. Any belief is a noble belief.


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## shaas3 (Sep 10, 2006)

good call


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

i think one thing you can learn from this thread is that no-one will change their beliefs. I hope there is some sort of conclusion one day.

Do all christians believe in noahs ark? If they think its jsut a story what is their explation for dinosaurs etc?


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Athiesm in itself is a faith. You are having faith that what you see is it, that everything can be explained through logic and numbers. Any belief is a noble belief.


 Yep atheism is a believe or faith that no higher power exists. However agnosticism/agnostics (and low atheists) simpy have a lack of faith or none at all - they have no belief.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

WolfFish said:


> I don't think faith is the problem.
> 
> I think that we are the problem. I am in no way perfect, I think all of you can vouch for that lol.. (and everyone that knows me) We can not make anyone believe anything they don't want to believe. But we seem to always want to be right, and prove OUR point, and say how enlightened WE are.. I mean it is pure selfishness, and arrogance.
> 
> ...


This is the quote from Dippy I was talking about...absolutely well said! If more people would adapt this attitude...so much could be done!


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Athiesm in itself is a faith. You are having faith that what you see is it, that everything can be explained through logic and numbers. Any belief is a noble belief.


yeah that's incorrect. i believe firmly that i should go out every day and kill five kittens and kick four puppies. is that noble? no. any noble belief is a noble belief. not having a faith does not change the fact that some beliefs are simply wrong. when did we get to the point where saying something is wrong or right is wrong?


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

HOF??


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## nelsong6969 (Jul 26, 2004)

+1 for evolution

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5363328.stm


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

nelsong6969 said:


> +1 for evolution
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5363328.stm


i heard about this today, whats the christian view on this?

"[The species had] a mixture of ape-like and human-like features. This puts afarensis in a special position to play a pivotal role in the story of what we are and where we come from."

Also what does satan do? just punish people in hell? or does he manipulate people to be evil, if so how? If satan was once an angel what happened before he fell, was there no hell? If god created angels why aren't they perfect, why did he go evil and how did an angel banished become the ruler of hell. Why does god let satan exist, why does god want humans to be punished for not having faith? He could easily show us he existed but wants us to have faith but he also gives us the freedom to make up own mind so why??


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

what blows my mind is the missed opportunity that is evolution. founding principle of evolution, all life comes from one souce. founding principle of christianity, everything comes from God. how can people not see how science and religion agree on this?

that being said a few points:

EVERY time that the historical record differs with the bible, it get's PROVEN wrong. by athieists, agnostics, christians, muslims, and every other religion out there.

more than 90% of all the universe is "dark matter" according to modern science. why? because when scientists program the mass of the universe into a computer they see that it's impossible for the galaxies to rotate as there simply isn't enough mass. when figured out on paper, they confirm this. so what do we do? we say the solution is that the majority of the universe is made up of this material that we can't prove exists at all. SCIENCE IS A FAITH make no mistake. to belive the current scientific view of the universe, you must accept certian principles that science CAN'T quantify or explain at all. you just have to take it on faith.


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## nelsong6969 (Jul 26, 2004)

i just think peopel are going to argue about this till the end of time and no one will really know for sure so i just dont worry about it


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> But for people like DippyEggs and I we are what you would class "Evangelicals" (sorry to speak for you Dippy...forgive me if I am off - we never discussed this, but I am assuming from our conversations)


Nope, Jeff.. you are right on target, and great post, btw..







it took lots of pain, more yet to come, but I'm trying to break out and continue growing... I get sweatty sometimes lol
What a strange, tough, and yet wonderful walk it really is..

mdrs, thoughtful replys there, interesting take! Very interesting


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

nelsong6969 said:


> i just think peopel are going to argue about this till the end of time and no one will really know for sure so i just dont worry about it


well put. it just makes me laugh. i find it amusing when people look down on men of faith because faith is for the dark ages when science is faith too. just makes me laugh that these "masters of observation and logic" don't really understand the essence of what religion or faith is.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

WolfFish said:


> Also what does satan do? just punish people in hell? or does he manipulate people to be evil, if so how? If satan was once an angel what happened before he fell, was there no hell? If god created angels why aren't they perfect, why did he go evil and how did an angel banished become the ruler of hell. Why does god let satan exist, why does god want humans to be punished for not having faith? He could easily show us he existed but wants us to have faith but he also gives us the freedom to make up own mind so why??


It depends on whom you ask, and that if you're talking about "satan" as a physical being or simply a metaphor.

Satan has been viewed as the angel God created to simply test human strength & piety. With that view, God is stricky supportive of Satans action this view is more Tanakh than Biblical. However to me that makes God look more monsterous. Christian view is that satan is a rebellious demon that had alot of pride. However an all knowing God knew that Satan would rebel but choose to do nothing about it. Again the view of hell depends on whom you ask.

Poor, inferior, badly designed creatures given the ability to make choices that were created aren't responsable for their actions. Choosing between good and evil / right and wrong cannot be due to a response to the environment. Why ? Because God created everything that Adam and Eve, Satan, Jesus, You and I would interact with, so if it was, our evil/wrong decision would be his fault.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

User said:


> Also what does satan do? just punish people in hell? or does he manipulate people to be evil, if so how? If satan was once an angel what happened before he fell, was there no hell? If god created angels why aren't they perfect, why did he go evil and how did an angel banished become the ruler of hell. Why does god let satan exist, why does god want humans to be punished for not having faith? He could easily show us he existed but wants us to have faith but he also gives us the freedom to make up own mind so why??


It depends on whom you ask, and that if you're talking about "satan" as a physical being or simply a metaphor.

Satan has been viewed as the angel God created to simply test human strength & piety. With that view, God is stricky supportive of Satans action this view is more Tanakh than Biblical. However to me that makes God look more monsterous. Christian view is that satan is a rebellious demon that had alot of pride. However an all knowing God knew that Satan would rebel but choose to do nothing about it. Again the view of hell depends on whom you ask.

Poor, inferior, badly designed creatures given the ability to make choices that were created aren't responsable for their actions. Choosing between good and evil / right and wrong cannot be due to a response to the environment. Why ? Because God created everything that Adam and Eve, Satan, Jesus, You and I would interact with, so if it was, our evil/wrong decision would be his fault.









[/quote]

so if i have a child and that child kills your child that's my fault because i begat said child? God is exonerated through FREE WILL and INTELLEGENCE. God gave me the abilty to see the difference between right and wrong and choose. to say otherwise insults humanity. my mistakes are my fault.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> Poor, inferior, badly designed creatures given the ability to make choices that were created aren't responsable for their actions. Choosing between good and evil / right and wrong cannot be due to a response to the environment. Why ? Because God created everything that Adam and Eve, Satan, Jesus, You and I would interact with, so if it was, our evil/wrong decision would be his fault.


with respect, I strongly disagree

I know I'm just giving the typical answer, but without the choice to select right or wrong, there would be no freedom, or love in the whole universe.. God would have made us complete slave robots unable to make choices of our own.
That woud make a boring universe if you ask me. Especially for God.
Satan was created by God yes, but according to the Bible, he was created as Lucifer, one of the most powerful angels, in charge of worship.. and depending on how you view the text, he made the choice to lift up his pride in the splendor(sp) of how he was made. That made him rebellious against God.

That was not God's fault. Even angels have the ability to choose right or wrong according to the Bible. But I'm glad I'm human, there is no plan of salvation for angels..


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## User (May 31, 2004)

mdrs said:


> Also what does satan do? just punish people in hell? or does he manipulate people to be evil, if so how? If satan was once an angel what happened before he fell, was there no hell? If god created angels why aren't they perfect, why did he go evil and how did an angel banished become the ruler of hell. Why does god let satan exist, why does god want humans to be punished for not having faith? He could easily show us he existed but wants us to have faith but he also gives us the freedom to make up own mind so why??


It depends on whom you ask, and that if you're talking about "satan" as a physical being or simply a metaphor.

Satan has been viewed as the angel God created to simply test human strength & piety. With that view, God is stricky supportive of Satans action this view is more Tanakh than Biblical. However to me that makes God look more monsterous. Christian view is that satan is a rebellious demon that had alot of pride. However an all knowing God knew that Satan would rebel but choose to do nothing about it. Again the view of hell depends on whom you ask.

Poor, inferior, badly designed creatures given the ability to make choices that were created aren't responsable for their actions. Choosing between good and evil / right and wrong cannot be due to a response to the environment. Why ? Because God created everything that Adam and Eve, Satan, Jesus, You and I would interact with, so if it was, our evil/wrong decision would be his fault.









[/quote]

so if i have a child and that child kills your child that's my fault because i begat said child? God is exonerated through FREE WILL and INTELLEGENCE. God gave me the abilty to see the difference between right and wrong and choose. to say otherwise insults humanity. my mistakes are my fault.
[/quote]

The fabric of "Free will" was created by God then actions that come from it is a reaction from his creation of free will. If God created free will, its needless to complain when someone chooses the wrong action/decision, then punish their soul forever.

What did free will do to make Eve arrive at the conclusion that the "serpent" was telling her the truth? Because it seemed trustworthy? Who created her ability to determine what was trustworthy? God. She made the wrong choice - irreverent.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2006)

mdrs said:


> Athiesm in itself is a faith. You are having faith that what you see is it, that everything can be explained through logic and numbers. Any belief is a noble belief.


yeah that's incorrect. i believe firmly that i should go out every day and kill five kittens and kick four puppies. is that noble? no. any noble belief is a noble belief. not having a faith does not change the fact that some beliefs are simply wrong. when did we get to the point where saying something is wrong or right is wrong?
[/quote]

I knew someone would point it out,







I dont think beleifs where people impose on someone else's rights are true beliefs, more decisions backed by years of pain, anguish and usually brainwashing of wrongful ethics.


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

PastorJeff said:


> Now with that said..."Christians" take different stances on the whole Ark thing. I believe the Bible to be true in all that it says. Which means that I believe the ark thing happened, I beleive there was an acutal Adam and Eve...and so on. Now if someone does not agree with that...that is o.k. But there are alot of other people of the faith that believe the bible is full of just "stories". That is fine. *I believe that is a very dangerous way to think*...but that is up to them.


And that right there is I think the one thing that not only seperates my from most christians, but one thing that stears me away from organized christianity. Like I said before I belive in God, and I even pray from time to time at certain situations (not very often), but I think of m faith as more of a reassurance in things and as a set of guidlines/morals by which I chose to follow.

Your statement shows the classic Christian trait, fear of God. I beleive in God, but Im not afraid of him. Im not afraid of what my thinking will do to me, or what my questioning the validity of the bible will effect in my life and death. Christians and admittedly yourself are afraid to think freely or question. I think God forgives everyone, whether you read the bible, or go to church, or anything else.

I believe in God because I find comfort in it sometimes, not because Im afraid of what will happen to me if I dont.


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## WhiteLineRacer (Jul 13, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> End World *will* happen. Heres how:
> 
> The current species of Humanoids will slowly begin to kill itself. Instead of putting money into medical research and education, they will put money into war and weapons. Eventually, there will be huge genocides, people will start to die of every type of virus you can think of and they will be too self-centered to realize it. Thier own opinion will be "THE WORD" and every other race or religious and political group will be looked at as enemies of the state, and they will fight and fight.
> 
> ...


I'll have some of whatever you've been smoking please


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

ESPMike said:


> Now with that said..."Christians" take different stances on the whole Ark thing. I believe the Bible to be true in all that it says. Which means that I believe the ark thing happened, I beleive there was an acutal Adam and Eve...and so on. Now if someone does not agree with that...that is o.k. But there are alot of other people of the faith that believe the bible is full of just "stories". That is fine. *I believe that is a very dangerous way to think*...but that is up to them.


And that right there is I think the one thing that not only seperates my from most christians, but one thing that stears me away from organized christianity. ...Your statement shows the classic Christian trait, fear of God. [/quote]
Wow...are you way off. Nowhere did I say that I fear God. I don't. This is a hermenutical issue not one of control and fear.

You just exhibited the classic problem...assumption. You walk a dangerous line when you place unstated foundations upon another person. Now because I am saying "you walk a dangerous line" does that mean I fear you?

You read way to much into that to make a point.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

lets agree to disagree. i really would like you believers to have an insigt into my mind just to see everything from my view it would make things very clear to you, and for pastor and dippy im shure youl would like to give every non believer the same experience, you prob feel things would become very clear to us too.
but for now thats not possible.

all i know is that im very comfortable with my stand and i hope you are with yours aswell, no matter what it is.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

C0Rey said:


> lets agree to disagree. i really would like you believers to have an insigt into my mind just to see everything from my view it would make things very clear to you, and for pastor and dippy im shure youl would like to give every non believer the same experience, you prob feel things would become very clear to us too.
> but for now thats not possible.
> 
> all i know is that im very comfortable with my stand and i hope you are with yours aswell, no matter what it is.


I am always dissapointed when I hear this line of thinking. Here are my thoughts...not in ANY way directed at you CORey, but my thoughts on the statement in general.

I love having an insight into what other people feel. I want to know what they believe in. I want to know their stance on faith issues. I want to build the bridge between those that are "Evangelical" and those that are not.

BUT...

What I see often times more than not is that those that are NOT "Evangelical" want us to understand, respect, honor and uphold what they feel is right...and they even want us to know how what we beleive is stupid, wrong, and just plain out of touch. Isn't there a double standard here?

A question was asked...an answer was given...and the response was you can't be so "bloody stupid"...what's wrong with this picture? I am of the belief...don't ask a question you don't want the answer to.

But if I were to respond by saying anything in a harsh tone, condescending or the like, I would be jumped all over for not adhearing to my faith. Total double standard.

Let me clarify...I am not trying to get you to believe, I don't care if you believe, and to be honest, I don't care if anyone respects what I believe. Those that are going to believe...are going to believe. Those that are not going to believe are NOT going to believe. I do not want to give anyone here any kind of experience. If you notice...I do not start threads like this, and I am trying very hard to stay out of them (didn't do so well on this one), but when a question is asked I am willing to answer.

Then get called "bloody stupid" for answering the question. And now the statement "agree to disagree"? What the heck? I don't care if anyone agrees in the first place...I am just answering questions. That is why it is called "PERSONAL BELIEFS"...they are up to each and every individual.

I respect your right to believe whatever you wish. I may not agree, but I will never disrespect someone else for believing something else...just would be nice if the door swung both ways...but it never does.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

WOW! i never called you or anyone else here an idiot!









"And now the statement "agree to disagree"? What the heck? I don't care if anyone agrees in the first place"








ok pastor, put the gun down.... i was just trying to conclude in a reasonable manner that we dont share believs, but it doesnt meen we cant connect on other thouhts...

wonder why MY post made you so mad all of a sudden!


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

PastorJeff said:


> Now with that said..."Christians" take different stances on the whole Ark thing. I believe the Bible to be true in all that it says. Which means that I believe the ark thing happened, I beleive there was an acutal Adam and Eve...and so on. Now if someone does not agree with that...that is o.k. But there are alot of other people of the faith that believe the bible is full of just "stories". That is fine. *I believe that is a very dangerous way to think*...but that is up to them.


And that right there is I think the one thing that not only seperates my from most christians, but one thing that stears me away from organized christianity. ...Your statement shows the classic Christian trait, fear of God. [/quote]
Wow...are you way off. Nowhere did I say that I fear God. I don't. This is a hermenutical issue not one of control and fear.

You just exhibited the classic problem...assumption. You walk a dangerous line when you place unstated foundations upon another person. Now because I am saying "you walk a dangerous line" does that mean I fear you?

You read way to much into that to make a point.
[/quote]

If you dont fear God, then why do you feel that thinking anything other then the bible being factual stories is dangerous? Im not attacking you or anything, Im just curious as to how someoen as devout as yourself approaches the topic.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

C0Rey said:


> WOW! i never called you or anyone else here an idiot!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


think hes confusing you with me, i called noahs ark bloody stupid as even with todays technology one man would take years to collect every animal...wouldn't be able to keept hem alive on a boat or even anywhere else for some species and would not be able to breed them. By the time he collected the last animals the first ones would be years old ie...T-rex?, insects that live 1 day-1 year wouldn't survive. Its totally impossibly imo. What did he feed them? Why did god need a flood to kill everyone and why did he choose a way that wiped out all his innocent animals? Why hasn't god done anything for 2000 years? Why has there been no evidence for such a long time yet science keeps strengthening their argument with yet more facts and are constantly searching for the truth. I think considering how science is moving forward and religion is not then its inevitable who will find the first undeniable truth.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

> Let me clarify...I am not trying to get you to believe, *I don't care if you believe*, and to be honest, I don't care if anyone respects what I believe. Those that are going to believe...are going to believe. Those that are not going to believe are NOT going to believe. I do not want to give anyone here any kind of experience. If you notice...I do not start threads like this, and I am trying very hard to stay out of them (didn't do so well on this one), but when a question is asked I am willing to answer.


you dont care that people will burn in infinite hellfire? doesn sound too Evangelical to me.
If I knew that those that does share my believes would have that faith i would care and i would try to teach them my ways. In my case that is not a fact, but it is in yours, im not saying its your responsibility, just finding in weird that you dont care.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

C0Rey said:


> If you dont fear God, then why do you feel that thinking anything other then the bible being factual stories is dangerous? Im not attacking you or anything, Im just curious as to how someoen as devout as yourself approaches the topic.


Very good question.

This is not a "fear God" issue. But rather an issue of HOW one is going to place value on scripture. I believe that all of scripture is true and is right in everything that it talks about. And what is dangerous is when people pick and choose what they say they are going to believe as truth vs. what is only a "story" or "fairy tale".

Here is an example...if I am to say that Noah's Ark is just a story, then I am saying that the Bible is untrue in this specific story. Where do I stop? What about the death of Christ on the cross? This is the foundation of the Christian faith. Take that away and you have taken away what Christianity is all about.

Now what if you say that Jesus Christ was real, was brought up on charges before the government, was put to death on the cross (a very common form of punishment for non-Roman citizens) BUT....you don't believe that he came back to life again three days later. You just have taken away the very foundation of Christianity. Without the death and resurection of Jesus Christ...there is no Christianity.

So if you call one part of the Bible false and untrue...where do you stop? IF one part can be untrue, then the whole foundation of Christianity will eventually be labled as only a "story". And if that is the case, then there really is no "Christianity" anymore.

That's why it is dangerous. Because it erodes away at the very foundation of what Christianity is. Now I will admit that people get things confused on what is to be believed as fact and what is not being spoken as face (take the book of proverbs for example...not facts, but more over trueisms for lack of a better term).

Hope that makes sense...


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

C0Rey said:


> you dont care that people will burn in infinite hellfire? doesn sound too Evangelical to me.
> If I knew that those that does share my believes would have that faith i would care and i would try to teach them my ways. In my case that is not a fact, but it is in yours, im not saying its your responsibility, just finding in weird that you dont care.


Very good point CORey...and a good question.

Again, let me try to explain...but know that what I am saying really stirs up tempers and I do not want to do that! But I will try to explain.

There are two words that really get people pissed in the Christian community and they are FREE-WILL and PREDESTINATION.

*Free-Will * is basically the belief that you choose to come to God and accept Christ. You can be convinced into the kingdom, I can talk you into it if I can just reason with you and get you to understand.

*Predestination* is the belief that God chooses you. That you were "predestined before the very begining of time" as the Bible says. I am really simplifying it here, but what that means is that God already knows who is going to accept Christ and who is not. While I may be the means that someone comes to Christ (through talking with them about it or witnessing as we call it), it is not my responsibility to force anyone to "believe" but rather to live my life to the best of my ability striving to have the closest walk with God that I can. The individuals relationship is HIS or HER responsibility...not mine. Hence the statement "I don't care..."

Now this line of thinking really pisses off those that feel I need to argue people into heaven. But when I look at scripture I see more verses referring to predestination than free-will. That is why I am a firm beleiver in predestination.

I realize that opens up a whole nuther can of worms, but I hope that explains my comment.

So if you are going to believe in God


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

so in a fact its not up to the person himself to believe, God has allready set the table.
in that fact you can argue that you as a believer is chosen and i as a non believer has been discarded..

thats says something either about you, or your god.... and in fact we are not all his children, some merely lefover luggage whaiting to be sent to the firery gates of hell..

let me know if im whay off...


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

PastorJeff said:


> If you dont fear God, then why do you feel that thinking anything other then the bible being factual stories is dangerous? Im not attacking you or anything, Im just curious as to how someoen as devout as yourself approaches the topic.


Very good question.

This is not a "fear God" issue. But rather an issue of HOW one is going to place value on scripture. I believe that all of scripture is true and is right in everything that it talks about. And what is dangerous is when people pick and choose what they say they are going to believe as truth vs. what is only a "story" or "fairy tale".

Here is an example...if I am to say that Noah's Ark is just a story, then I am saying that the Bible is untrue in this specific story. Where do I stop? What about the death of Christ on the cross? This is the foundation of the Christian faith. Take that away and you have taken away what Christianity is all about.

Now what if you say that Jesus Christ was real, was brought up on charges before the government, was put to death on the cross (a very common form of punishment for non-Roman citizens) BUT....you don't believe that he came back to life again three days later. You just have taken away the very foundation of Christianity. Without the death and resurection of Jesus Christ...there is no Christianity.

So if you call one part of the Bible false and untrue...where do you stop? IF one part can be untrue, then the whole foundation of Christianity will eventually be labled as only a "story". And if that is the case, then there really is no "Christianity" anymore.

That's why it is dangerous. Because it erodes away at the very foundation of what Christianity is. Now I will admit that people get things confused on what is to be believed as fact and what is not being spoken as face (take the book of proverbs for example...not facts, but more over trueisms for lack of a better term).

Hope that makes sense...
[/quote]

How does that make Christianity any less real? Maybe Jesus did die on a cross, but he didnt come back 3 days later. Why does that make his teachings less important? Ive never considered my faith to be something I follow in order to be "saved" as so many Christians like to put it, I look at my personal beliefs as an every-day reassurance, and as a set of morals by which I live my life. I dont do things so I can go to heaven one day, I do things because I believe they are the right thing, and I have been taught those to be the right thing over years of religious teaching etc.

If Jesus didnt ressurect and the entire story, why does that make what Christians follow less important? The rules and morals by which Christians live their lives are still of good value, and those people still find assurance in their praying and beliefs. If Jesus didnt actually come back or if Noah didnt actually build an ark, does that mean their isnt a heaven and that people cant believe in anymore?

Point being I dont think the factual truth of the bible and of its stories are what important, its the message that those stories send and the effect on the readers of those stories. Just because it didnt actually happen in that way doesnt mean that there is no God and no heaven. I dont think religion is supposed to be taken in such a literal sense, more of a spiritual sense.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

C0Rey said:


> so in a fact its not up to the person himself to believe, God has allready set the table.
> in that fact you can argue that you as a believer is chosen and i as a non believer has been discarded..
> thats says something either about you, or your god.... and in fact we are not all his children, some merely lefover luggage whaiting to be sent to the firery gates of hell..
> let me know if im whay off...


If you don't mind Pastor, I would like to_ try _ and help.
I believe in both predestination, and free-will. Does that mean that the Pastor and I need to separate, and fight one another? Absolutely not. (basically just language used difference)

But we both do agree that we can not make anyone believe, that it is the Spirit of the Lords job to give the gift of faith. We can only share Gods word with people, and let Him do the rest.
So, that makes us believe the same thing, just different terminology used to get there.. I think LOL

I believe that the Apostle Paul was pre destined in that he was not searching for God at the time of his conversion. But the 3,000 that came to faith on the day of Pentecost were convicted by Gods word, spoken by the Apostles, and came unto the Lord by their own free-will.
Did God know they would come to Him? 
I don't think He was suprised.. lol.. But it was merely the way that they came.. They heard and came, and Paul (or Saul of Tarsus) was looking to kill Christians, and was converted solely by the will of God.
Sorry Pastor, if I am not explaining well, or representing you..

So looking at the Scripture "God does not wish any to perish" paraphrasing of course.. I would say that there are doors, or windows of opportunity that all people get in life, to recieve the gift of faith in God.
So, to say that there are only some who can come to God and be accepted does not float in my mind, according to scripture.
I hope that helps, and may or may not be what PastorJeff was trying to explain. But I tryed, (if I mis represented you Pastor, apologies!)


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> If Jesus didnt ressurect and the entire story, why does that make what Christians follow less important? The rules and morals by which Christians live their lives are still of good value, and those people still find assurance in their praying and beliefs. If Jesus didnt actually come back or if Noah didnt actually build an ark, does that mean their isnt a heaven and that people cant believe in anymore?


I wouldn't mind a stab at this question to, again, not speaking for PastorJeff, so keep that in mind..
It really does make a difference, because the Bible makes it pretty clear that, in our flesh, we are sinners worthy of the penalty of death.

Bear with me, this is significant.. So, if the penalty of sin equals death, and we are born sinners, then how can we be saved from it?

Again, bear with me, this is not the easiest question to answer...
Let me just put it like this.. there are many ways to answer, so this is one way. ---cliffnote version lol---
In Genesis, Adam and Eve had 2 sons, Cain, and Able. The Bible says that it was time for them to make an offering to the Lord.. Cain brought the work of his hands (fruit that he had grown) that was not accepted by God as a worthy offering..
Able, on the other hand, brought the firstlings of his flock to be sacrificed unto God. 
Now again, bear with me.. this can be tough to swallow..
God requires us to come to him His way, not ours, according to the Bible. He is eternally, and completely set against sin. Cain brought what HE thought was sufficent for an offering to the Lord.
And Able brought living sacrifices to the Lord.. Innocent blood, spilled to be reconciled to God, to show the extent of the awful power of sin. That points to what Jesus Christ would do for the world.. The sacrifice to end all sacrifices. The worthy blood that was spilled, so powerful, that it has the power to reconcile the worst sinner back to God.
If accepted, the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ has the power to make a heart that hates the Lord, and is set completely against God, a heart that searches for and worships the rightful creator of the universe, and gives eternal salvation, which is a natural result of being a child of God.

IF Jesus Christ did not resurrect, the prophecys would not be true. Resurrection of the dead to God wouldn't be true. Eternal life would be a fantasy. Jesus' blood would be powerless to fulfill the prophecy of a new life that follows after God, which is salvation

I know that is a hard read. But give it a chance.. I will proof read it, and if it is hard to understand, I will try my best to clear it up.

God accepted Ables offering,(spotless blood-[faith in Jesus Christ]) and rejected Cains.(work of his hands-[if you rely on your good deeds, you will be accepted])


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

Religion was set up to keep everyone calm and have something to belive in. If there was no religion, then there would be total anarchy. Which would mean that everyone dies.

Another ?
10 comandments state that you cannot worship false gods. So why are people worshiping Alah, Buddah, mother mary(catholic) etc.
If they aren't all the same thing, then 90% of the earth would go to hell.
Just one of my many thoughts.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> Religion was set up to keep everyone calm and have something to belive in. If there was no religion, then there would be total anarchy. Which would mean that everyone dies.


I don't know if Im touching on the subject matter well..

But the Bible was written by around 40 different people, over a span of 800-1200 or so years..
Most of them never even knew each other, in the least. But their stories weave together an incredible account that can not just be played off as 'coinsidence' or 'created by man to controll them'
This is, if you were to look at it wih honesty.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

Leasure1 said:


> Religion was set up to * keep everyone calm * and have something to belive in. If there was no religion, then there would be total anarchy. Which would mean that everyone dies.
> 
> Another ?
> 10 comandments state that you cannot worship false gods. So why are people worshiping Alah, Buddah, mother mary(catholic) etc.
> ...


close but no cigar, religon was set up to teach life lessons/morals to establish law and to an extent provide answers for questions that could not yet be answered by science, like the origins of life but was also used to gain control and with that came power..

you can only go to hell if you belive in it in the first place, there is no fear of god if you do not belive in god? its all objective and its yet another reason i disgree with organized religon that teachs you to fear hell/devil man made ideas to use fear to control peoples behavior..


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> 10 comandments state that you cannot worship false gods. So why are people worshiping Alah, Buddah, mother mary(catholic) etc.
> If they aren't all the same thing, then 90% of the earth would go to hell.
> Just one of my many thoughts.


It isn't the same thing, and nowhere in the Bible does it say that all people will enjoy salvation.
In fact it says 'narrow is the path that leads to life' 'broad is the way of destruction'
and 'many are called and few who enter'
again, paraphrasing, but that is basically what it says.. 
Is that heartless of God? I think God did a whole lot to show us we need Him to be saved from death.
I think the blame goes on individuals, and not God. We make the choice in life to follow, or reject Him.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Dippy...go ahead and speak for me! You are doing a great job! Let it roll brother...let it roll!

Can I get an amen in the crowd!

Sorry...could not resist. Your doing great with your answers.

Regarding the whole Free-Will vs. Predestination issue...there are verses supporting both. So who knows, in the end I don't think it matters when you look at the job that we are supposed to do. It just has to be done either way.

Talk to you soon,

Jeffrey


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

have no clue what going on. Just a quick question.

DO I HAVE TO GO TO CHURCH EVERY SUNDAY?

or can i just go easter and christmas?


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Wow...I found this late....

Interesting, and well mannered intellectual discussion.....I commend you all on the adult coherent ability to carry on going dialogue without resorting to bashing, flaming, etc....









I sincerely hope that all people reading this realize the strong difference between religion and spirituality. Religion is man made. Therefore fallable, and full of issues as man is himself.

I could never be an evangelical believer Jeff, Dippy. I take to issue of the ark to throw all belief in taking the bible with any type of literal view point. The verses give you the exact dimension of the boat he built (arguably 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet tall). It also, for those who do not read, was more than a two by two issue ( he was to take 7 x 7 of every "unclean animal").....in fact that particular area is a can't buy it issue for me...I mean according to the bible Noah was 500 years old when he fathered Shem, Ham and Japeth...I guess guys as a biologist let me tell you physically not only can we not cram the animals into this boat, but we can not carry food for them...and yes Noah was commanded to take food so saying that god miraculously kept them fasting and alive does not work........I also believe the Earth is much younger than "science" likes to claim, and I also belive that this adds to the dilema of taking this literally...Just can't be done.

I do not mean to derail...I just thought I would express a view point.

I do so as a biologist, and one who is a believer in creation...as the more you learn the more I can tell you we realize we know nothing. "evolution" as a source of life does not work..evolution is a process all around us every day..but it does not answer the question of which came first the chicken or the egg?

My beliefs are very native american, I belive whole heartedly in a Great Spirit (GOD) and I believe we were made somewhere above the animals, and somewhere below the angels....I also believe that there are forces here among us not human ( if I can briefly adress the Nephilim issue...Jeff I do not believe the bible answers to them as a demonic/human hybrid, but as an angel(sons of god)/human hybrid...), both good (angel) and bad (demonic)....

Any way I will allow you more educated, and faith filled sentient creatures educate me, as I wait to read your serious responses...thank you for taking time to read my comments.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

The "Nephilim" (in Islam they're "Jin") are people that are cross breed with fallen-angels, and that they still live amongst us. Although some people view nephilim as titans. I've noticed that people of Islamic faith openly accepts the concept, even going as far to connent "Jin" with "Aliens".


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## benJii (Feb 17, 2005)

Ya' know, I'm one of those people that say that you should be able to do whatever you please, as long as you do not harm another. But I'm still in firm belief that if there were no religion at all, this world could be a much happier place. I'm not to scientifical in this statement here, but I would imagine that disgarding faith aside I would estimate that atleast a third the wars wouldn't of exsisted. Maybe I'm wrong in this statement, but I doubt I'm far off.

I'm appauled on some of your statements, and I cannot believe some people can be so blind to a single faith, as to not considering reasoning.


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## mike123 (Jul 17, 2006)

Tibs said:


> Ya' know, I'm one of those people that say that you should be able to do whatever you please, as long as you do not harm another. But I'm still in firm belief that if there were no religion at all, this world could be a much happier place. I'm not to scientifical in this statement here, but I would imagine that disgarding faith aside I would estimate that atleast a third the wars wouldn't of exsisted. Maybe I'm wrong in this statement, but I doubt I'm far off.
> 
> I'm appauled on some of your statements, and I cannot believe some people can be so blind to a single faith, as to not considering reasoning.


i agree, i think religion is more trouble than its worth. some of the worst wars are started over religion.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

please answer this question, does god know what will happen in the future? Does he already know how he will live our lives? If he doesn't..why doesn't he know i thought he knew everything in the universe there could ever be etc.

if the answer is yes, then why let people exist, why not wipe out all the bad people and let earth be heaven? Or skip the earth part...

Also why doesn't god smite anymore like in the bible? He wiped out all the people and animals for reasons i don't know but now there are much worse things happening and he doesn't stop it.

I understand the answer that adam and eve were pure therefore the incest of their offspring didn't cause the problems incest has today. But this raises a big question, where did the corruption come from? If they were 100% pure then how can an infinite of inbreeding create anything but pure? However though, everyone was wiped out in the flood so doesn't that mean noah and his wife also created all human life over again? But if they were the ONLY ones not evil then surely they can't be as pure as adam and eve either so how can incest not create huge problems. If you inbreed mice eventually after X (not really sure how many...) generations they will be born deformed or blind etc.

thanks pastorjeff for answering questions you must of been asked a few hundred times..


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA (Dec 8, 2003)




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## Guest (Sep 22, 2006)

WolfFish said:


> please answer this question, does god know what will happen in the future? Does he already know how he will live our lives? If he doesn't..why doesn't he know i thought he knew everything in the universe there could ever be etc.
> 
> if the answer is yes, then why let people exist, why not wipe out all the bad people and let earth be heaven? Or skip the earth part...
> 
> ...


Why would it be God's responsibility to live your life?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

PastorJeff said:


> have no clue what going on. Just a quick question.
> DO I HAVE TO GO TO CHURCH EVERY SUNDAY?
> or can i just go easter and christmas?


The best answer I can think of for this.

IF you give your life to Christ, you will be led by the Lord. Everything would be fine, as everyone is in a different place within their own walk with Him.
People are different.. some go all the time, some sometimes, and some never, or have a home Church.



> I sincerely hope that all people reading this realize the strong difference between religion and spirituality. Religion is man made. Therefore fallable, and full of issues as man is himself.


Absolutely.
I couldn't say it better myself. But I will say that in the Christian faith, there is the genuine conversion, and the religious believer.



> I could never be an evangelical believer Jeff, Dippy. I take to issue of the ark to throw all belief in taking the bible with any type of literal view point.


With all due respect, CrocKeeper
I wasn't searching for Jesus when I came to faith.. He basically invaded my life and conquered my heart with His love.
I don't think people set out to be 'evangelical' or any other type of way to believe. 
Like I said before, there is the genuine believer, and the religious, who believes from his own power, or tries to live a set of rules, that does not have the power to save. 
(because if you are under the law, you must walk in it completely, and no mortal man has-or ever will be able to obey the 10 commandments fully)
So, it really isn't a much of a choice.. and not to say that all 'evangelicals' are true believers either..
I don't expect you to be able to understand that fully,. but I tried











> if the answer is yes, then why let people exist, why not wipe out all the bad people and let earth be heaven? Or skip the earth part...


one word g-r-a-c-e. It is God's grace and mercy that lets any of us walk this earth. 
I think the miricle is that He lets us live at all, how rebellious we are against Him.



> Also why doesn't god smite anymore like in the bible? He wiped out all the people and animals for reasons i don't know but now there are much worse things happening and he doesn't stop it.


I have no idea if God does not smite anymore. I can't say that at all. God never promised that all people would come to faith and be saved, that never happens in the Bible.
We have our chances that are ordained by the Lord. That is it.



> I understand the answer that adam and eve were pure therefore the incest of their offspring didn't cause the problems incest has today. But this raises a big question, where did the corruption come from? If they were 100% pure then how can an infinite of inbreeding create anything but pure?


The corruption came the moment they did the one thing that God told them not to do.
God warned them, eat everything in the garden but that friuit that is in the middle of the garden.. the day you eat it, you will surely die. 
They were warned.
If they were totally pure, then the only result of their offspring is ..pure. Not pure is a process.. 
A tree that is healthy can not bring fourth bad fruit. but as it gets sick, the fruit will turn in stages, until it is really struggling to survive



> However though, everyone was wiped out in the flood so doesn't that mean noah and his wife also created all human life over again? But if they were the ONLY ones not evil then surely they can't be as pure as adam and eve either so how can incest not create huge problems. If you inbreed mice eventually after X (not really sure how many...) generations they will be born deformed or blind etc.


great questions, hard to answer..
But yes, Noah and his family repopulated the earth, and it says that Noah lived to be 600 years old.
It did bring in problems! Look at the world! We hate on each other, we fight, wars, famines, we destroy everything we touch, treat each other like objects, etc etc..
I don't think it came as a result of incest, but as a result of ...sin..


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## pottsburg (Aug 30, 2006)

Why does my mom have multiple sclerosis and bound to a wheelchair and my sister have epilepsy and can't drive at 19 years old? My dad got lucky making tons of money with an honest job 1 year after highschool. He doesn't deserve that.

Religion is a crutch for people that are weak.

Recently somebody in office here in Jacksonville recommended a prayer to help things out.....The paper scoffed at it, saying that we're just as lucky to get help by chanting or having a sacrifice.

A huge university did a test with praying for people in hospitals...Some were prayed for without knowing, others were prayed for and knew it, one group was being told they were being prayed for and weren't, and another group was just a control. Those that weren't prayed for had less complications in surgery and with their health than those that were prayed for.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> I do so as a biologist, and one who is a believer in creation...as the more you learn the more I can tell you we realize we know nothing. "evolution" as a source of life does not work..evolution is a process all around us every day..but it does not answer the question of which came first the chicken or the egg?


awesome. again, faith came into my life the moment I trusted Christ with my life.
I believe simply because of what has happened in my heart as a result of trusting Christ. 
IT was not a 'choice', but more of a spiritual revelation.. I hope you can understand that..



> My beliefs are very native american, I belive whole heartedly in a Great Spirit (GOD) and I believe we were made somewhere above the animals, and somewhere below the angels....I also believe that there are forces here among us not human ( if I can briefly adress the Nephilim issue...Jeff I do not believe the bible answers to them as a demonic/human hybrid, but as an angel(sons of god)/human hybrid...), both good (angel) and bad (demonic)....


I think you are believing most principles of the Bible..
I would like to say this, not telling you what to do!! I would never do that, but I have a suggestion?
If you are searching for the truth about God, and desire to know Him, and be with Him in a relationship.. 
Give Jesus a whole hearted try before you finish your quest.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

ok this is getting off subject, but what is a jew...whats the difference between a jew and a christian. I ask because jesus was a jew. How can their of been jews before jesus i thought he spread the word of god first? Why don't they believe jesus was god and why would they believe in god if they don't believe in jesus? Isn't the whole foundation of christianity based on jesus and what he said? So what do jews base their beliefs on. Maybe a jewish person could answer this? Why did they kill jesus in the first place?? Does god hate jews for killing his son and do christians hate jews?

I think i am out of questions for christianity now, or any good ones. I don't feel any different about what i believe but i think i do actually respect faith more now i know more. I still think the weakest point of the bible is noahs ark and its fundamentally flawed but to keep on discussing it is stupid.

Oh and heres something to test your knowledge of the bible. Who is the oldest person in the bible?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> Why does my mom have multiple sclerosis and bound to a wheelchair and my sister have epilepsy and can't drive at 19 years old? My dad got lucky making tons of money with an honest job 1 year after highschool. He doesn't deserve that.


There are horrible diseases, and birth defects that break our hearts continually.. 
These things hurt us beyond our wildest imagination! It truly is horrible, and I'm sorry to hear about your Mom, and Sister!
This answer will sadly dissapoint you though.. Disease and the likes all come about from the disaterous effects of the sin of mankind.
It's destructive force is randomly destroying people's lives by the bucketload.
We can not understand exactly how this works or why.. Gods thoughts are not our thoughts, and His power, and ability to rightly do things is something not able to be concieved by our little minds.



> Religion is a crutch for people that are weak.


I have heard most of the answers about why all people of faith are weak and it is a crutch.. LOL
It takes more strength to stand in front people and say all the things they hate to hear, and take the abuse from everybody who thinks he got it all figured out, like as in this statement, than it takes to go with the flow of what everyone else believes about God, or take no stance in the situation. 
I think that statement needs reversed


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

gods not sounding like such a nice chap really...he could make the world a better place with no effort but doesn't? But thats when the faith comes in that i really don't understand. Knowing this but hoping he has good reason for it. But what i don't get is why he wiped out all evil before but not again so it contradicts your point to some extent.

Religion is confusing the hell out of me i am going to just be a sinner and take the risk


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

ok, I can't handle anymore today ..lol 
I personally think that out of all the people who are posting in this thread, there are like under 10% of them who are even listening to, or care at all about Biblicially sound answers.
It is like amusement for everyone else.. So many come in to threads like this, so few search for God.


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## pottsburg (Aug 30, 2006)

So because Muslims are blowing people up and ruining everything, because cigarette companies are killing millions, because Enron execs and Martha Stuart ripped off millions of dollars, my mom and sister have to suffer by getting debilitating conditions? Don't take this personally, or any further than this topic, but you're a whackjob if you believe this.

If your wife or close person got cancer, you'd blame it on the evil of mankind? Karma is way more realistic than the idea of innocents being punished because of evildoers and sinful people. I've done alot of messed up stuff in my life, cheated on alot of girls, and tried alot of d-rugs. I'm perfecetly fine and in college to by a psychiatrist.

My sister went to church and has been a fanatic since she was 5. She became epileptic at 14. My mom volunteered at hospitals her whole life and did nothing but help people for free because my dad had great paying jobs overseas. She was diagnosed when she was about 34. So two people that dedicate their lives to God or taking care of people are the ones that get punished? That's a messed up religion.

The only signs of God are in resmbling images, never in real life miracles.

"So what's more likely? That an all-powerful, mysterious God created the Universe, and decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that He simply doesn't exist at all, and that we created Him, so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone? "


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> ok, I can't handle anymore today ..lol
> I personally think that out of all the people who are posting in this thread, there are like under 10% of them who are even listening to, or care at all about Biblicially sound answers.
> It is like amusement for everyone else.. So many come in to threads like this, so few search for God.


i am interested and listening but not searching for god...


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> i am interested and listening but not searching for god...


Then I am wasting my time, and need to get out of here.. lol


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

misread..but i am not asking for you to preach, just talk and answer questions for someone who is curious.


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> > i am interested and listening but not searching for god...
> 
> 
> Then I am wasting my time, and need to get out of here.. lol


Because people are curious of your beleifs, not here toadopt them. If you think your wasting your time if people arent going to become Christians too, then your absolutely right. By answering my questions you are doing nothing but the opposite of making me more of a believer. If thats your purpose then you might as well give up.

Im not searching for God either, no need to. To be blunt about it, I dont feel I need a crutch to live my life to the fullest. If anything I think it would only hold me back.


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## randomhero (Mar 29, 2004)

I am not a religious fanatic by any means. I, however, believe in god. Its a personal choice. I think its a damn shame in this day and age that people have the gaul to call people whackjobs and lunatics for having faith in something higher than them. God does not need to prove himself to anyone. IMO, you cant truly prove something that you need to have faith in, otherwise you wouldnt need to have faith, you would simply know, and that would be the end of it. Faith requires you to put forth a belief in something you cant prove.

People have been arguing for a long time about religion and god. I only know 2 things about religion in my life.

1. I know that my life without god would seem empty

2. The few times in my life ive needed god, truly needed him, for something beyond my control, hes been there.

I take it very offensively when people make doragatory remarks about my religion, or any religion for that matter. Simply because you dont believe in it, that gives you no right to disparage it. I dont hate people who do this, i simply pity them, because they have a hollow existance.

As the many before me have stated, im not here to convert any of you, im not here to make you WANT to be a follower of god. No one can make you do that, I just want people to respect others.

There are no whackos or nutjobs when it comes to religion. There are simply those who believe, and those who dont. Granted, we all believe or dont believe to our own individual extents. And it is our right to do so.

God requres nothing more than our love, dedication and respect. Which is something i try to give everyone i encounter. I take people for who they are (love), i dedicate myself to that, and i respect whatever they believe in all aspects of their life, as i would hope that everyone would do that to me.

I ask no more than for all of you to grant me and your fellow board members the same respect as pertaining to religion in a religious discussion as you would give a homosexual man in a discussion related to sexuality or a black or hispanic man in a discussion related to race.

Just my two cents, take it as you will.

Im sorry if this seems slightly off topic, but i had this brewing throughout the reading of this thread and i had to put it down on the board.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> Because people are curious of your beleifs, not here toadopt them. If you think your wasting your time if people arent going to become Christians too, then your absolutely right. By answering my questions you are doing nothing but the opposite of making me more of a believer. If thats your purpose then you might as well give up.
> 
> Im not searching for God either, no need to. To be blunt about it, I dont feel I need a crutch to live my life to the fullest. If anything I think it would only hold me back.


You misunderstand..
I am not here to waste my time sharing what Christians believe only to have people throw it back in my face like what happens every single time someone asks a question about faith here.
read the Bible yourself, and if you don't understand it, not my fault.

It is sad to share with people, who only say that they want to hear what we believe, only to be opened up to personal attacks and disrespect. I don't care, really but it seems very petty that so many people are like that.

what I get from you, is you want to hear what is in the Bible, to strengthen why you are so above believing it. To me, that is wasting my time.
It would be different if you, or whoever starts these types of threads, were actually openly searching, but like you said.. you are not, so what are you doing here, exept trying to humiliate, and trip up Christians?

No matter what I say or do in here, you will find fault in it. That's ok, I'm used to this stuff, don't mean I have to like it

I was like you before, thinking that abusing my own freedom to hurt myself, and others was 'living life to its fullest' 
But I'm thinking you don't even look at it like that at all--again, waste of my time


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## bc_buddah (Dec 18, 2005)

WolfFish said:


> I am an atheist and i can't work out why peple pray or go to church. If God is everywhere then why go to a church? if he knows everything why can he only suddenly hear you when your palms touch? More importantly WHY would you call god wrong by asking him to change something (ie, save your family from cancer or something) when he is perfect and never wrong etc, has a plan..
> 
> Please just sensible answers i am just curious. Also in the story of adam and eve who it says in the bible wree the first 2 people. What happens next? They have children but then what? Incest??


MAAAAAN am i glad i came cross this thread. . . I LUV THIS STUFF . . aight . . i'ma rip ur post apart ready? lol

God IS EFVERYWHERE, so is satan, be aware of this . . . and do not underestimate his sneakyness . . . cuz he's the master of deception, and his goal is to get b.tween u and God, who i believe is Christ Jesus. Satan cant fight God, so he fights him indirectly, the only way he can . . . by gettin to Gods precious creation, Man.

U go to church to REJOICE ( b happy ) REPENT ( b sorry ) and to be with God's people, and to hear great messages. There's countless reasons why u would go to a church, once in a while or REGULARLY . . . ex: Fellowship (chill w/ gods peeps) volunteer/help out community , participate in church events etc. etc. make friends etc. etc. good friends who wont stab u in the back and have their principals in the right place . .. ish . . . mind u there are always exceptions, dont wanna b closed minded/one sided here so . . .

prayer isnt just closed eyed, palms touched, on knees prayer . . . thats very traditional . . . we live in a modern age. . .god is on the move and working great wonders in our world . . . i used to pray w/ my eyes open because it helped me pray better . . standing, driving . . . wutever, god hears all . . . and knows ur every thought . . . .

i dont get ur next question, " why would u call god wrong by asking him to change sumthing " as for asking him to save ur family from cancer and things . . . maybe ur prayers wont b answered right away . . .u cant b like god strike me with lightning or i wont believe in u . . . god doesnt work like that . . .he works on his own timing . . . a day to God, could b a century to us etc. sumtimes he wont answer ur prayer for a reason, perhaps to show u sumthing . . . or maybe it is his will to do otherwise . . . Gods will b done . .. not ours . . his will, WILL b done . .. not ours . . .

about ur adam and eve questions . . . do u have a bible? i suggest u read it . .. it's at the very begining . . . the first book is called " genisus " u should find ur answers there . . if not keep reading . .. it will enlighten u beyond ur wildest dreams . . . especialy if u want it too and ask that God speaks to u through his word, which is the bible . . . even the first women was decieved by satan .. . know how satan did this? by using God's very own word and twisting it and makeing eve trust satan . . . as we all have







we might b trsting satans lies right now . .. and u wont even know it . . . u'll think things are all cool but thats just how sneaky he is , master of deception man! expect the unexpected . . .

PM ME N E TIME

peace n luv b with everyone forever and always . . . may god have mercy on us ALL , so that we can join him in a blissful eternity . . . and not burn in tourment within the depths of hell . . .

it's obviuos there's good and evil in the world . . . and common sense should lead u towards good . . . i mean . . . if u had the choice btween good and bad , who in their RIGHT MIND would choose bad? over good? if u choose bad . . .then i feel so sorry for u and i pray for u everyday . . . and obviously . . ur not in the right mind . . . cuz ur being D E C I E V E D


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

bc_buddah said:


> I am an atheist and i can't work out why peple pray or go to church. If God is everywhere then why go to a church? if he knows everything why can he only suddenly hear you when your palms touch? More importantly WHY would you call god wrong by asking him to change something (ie, save your family from cancer or something) when he is perfect and never wrong etc, has a plan..
> 
> Please just sensible answers i am just curious. Also in the story of adam and eve who it says in the bible wree the first 2 people. What happens next? They have children but then what? Incest??


MAAAAAN am i glad i came cross this thread. . . I LUV THIS STUFF . . aight . . i'ma rip ur post apart ready? lol

God IS EFVERYWHERE, so is satan, be aware of this . . . and do not underestimate his sneakyness . . . cuz he's the master of deception, and his goal is to get b.tween u and God, who i believe is Christ Jesus. Satan cant fight God, so he fights him indirectly, the only way he can . . . by gettin to Gods precious creation, Man.

U go to church to REJOICE ( b happy ) REPENT ( b sorry ) and to be with God's people, and to hear great messages. There's countless reasons why u would go to a church, once in a while or REGULARLY . . . ex: Fellowship (chill w/ gods peeps) volunteer/help out community , participate in church events etc. etc. make friends etc. etc. good friends who wont stab u in the back and have their principals in the right place . .. ish . . . mind u there are always exceptions, dont wanna b closed minded/one sided here so . . .

prayer isnt just closed eyed, palms touched, on knees prayer . . . thats very traditional . . . we live in a modern age. . .god is on the move and working great wonders in our world . . . i used to pray w/ my eyes open because it helped me pray better . . standing, driving . . . wutever, god hears all . . . and knows ur every thought . . . .

i dont get ur next question, " why would u call god wrong by asking him to change sumthing " as for asking him to save ur family from cancer and things . . . maybe ur prayers wont b answered right away . . .u cant b like god strike me with lightning or i wont believe in u . . . god doesnt work like that . . .he works on his own timing . . . a day to God, could b a century to us etc. sumtimes he wont answer ur prayer for a reason, perhaps to show u sumthing . . . or maybe it is his will to do otherwise . . . Gods will b done . .. not ours . . his will, WILL b done . .. not ours . . .

about ur adam and eve questions . . . do u have a bible? i suggest u read it . .. it's at the very begining . . . the first book is called " genisus " u should find ur answers there . . if not keep reading . .. it will enlighten u beyond ur wildest dreams . . . especialy if u want it too and ask that God speaks to u through his word, which is the bible . . . even the first women was decieved by satan .. . know how satan did this? by using God's very own word and twisting it and makeing eve trust satan . . . as we all have







we might b trsting satans lies right now . .. and u wont even know it . . . u'll think things are all cool but thats just how sneaky he is , master of deception man! expect the unexpected . . .

PM ME N E TIME

peace n luv b with everyone forever and always . . . may god have mercy on us ALL , so that we can join him in a blissful eternity . . . and not burn in tourment within the depths of hell . . .

it's obviuos there's good and evil in the world . . . and common sense should lead u towards good . . . i mean . . . if u had the choice btween good and bad , who in their RIGHT MIND would choose bad? over good? if u choose bad . . .then i feel so sorry for u and i pray for u everyday . . . and obviously . . ur not in the right mind . . . cuz ur being D E C I E V E D
[/quote]

how exactyly have you torn my post apart? All you have done is give your opinion backed up with no fact. This is slightly less than what i would expect froma small confused child, less because you can't spell so i suggest praying for some english lessons. I will be ready to catch sneaky satan hiding in dark alleys now, look you just scared me into being good so i don't go to hell! christianity is amazing.

heres another point i have forgotten to mention, look at waterfalls for example or rock formations. At the rate the stone erodes you can very accurately work out how long it would take for that structure to form. Why would god put something there with the appearance and making everything point to it being older than the world itself? Is this another test from god to test your faith? Its just too convenient i blame satan that sneaky little bastard


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## bc_buddah (Dec 18, 2005)

WolfFish said:


> I am an atheist and i can't work out why peple pray or go to church. If God is everywhere then why go to a church? if he knows everything why can he only suddenly hear you when your palms touch? More importantly WHY would you call god wrong by asking him to change something (ie, save your family from cancer or something) when he is perfect and never wrong etc, has a plan..
> 
> Please just sensible answers i am just curious. Also in the story of adam and eve who it says in the bible wree the first 2 people. What happens next? They have children but then what? Incest??


MAAAAAN am i glad i came cross this thread. . . I LUV THIS STUFF . . aight . . i'ma rip ur post apart ready? lol

God IS EFVERYWHERE, so is satan, be aware of this . . . and do not underestimate his sneakyness . . . cuz he's the master of deception, and his goal is to get b.tween u and God, who i believe is Christ Jesus. Satan cant fight God, so he fights him indirectly, the only way he can . . . by gettin to Gods precious creation, Man.

U go to church to REJOICE ( b happy ) REPENT ( b sorry ) and to be with God's people, and to hear great messages. There's countless reasons why u would go to a church, once in a while or REGULARLY . . . ex: Fellowship (chill w/ gods peeps) volunteer/help out community , participate in church events etc. etc. make friends etc. etc. good friends who wont stab u in the back and have their principals in the right place . .. ish . . . mind u there are always exceptions, dont wanna b closed minded/one sided here so . . .

prayer isnt just closed eyed, palms touched, on knees prayer . . . thats very traditional . . . we live in a modern age. . .god is on the move and working great wonders in our world . . . i used to pray w/ my eyes open because it helped me pray better . . standing, driving . . . wutever, god hears all . . . and knows ur every thought . . . .

i dont get ur next question, " why would u call god wrong by asking him to change sumthing " as for asking him to save ur family from cancer and things . . . maybe ur prayers wont b answered right away . . .u cant b like god strike me with lightning or i wont believe in u . . . god doesnt work like that . . .he works on his own timing . . . a day to God, could b a century to us etc. sumtimes he wont answer ur prayer for a reason, perhaps to show u sumthing . . . or maybe it is his will to do otherwise . . . Gods will b done . .. not ours . . his will, WILL b done . .. not ours . . .

about ur adam and eve questions . . . do u have a bible? i suggest u read it . .. it's at the very begining . . . the first book is called " genisus " u should find ur answers there . . if not keep reading . .. it will enlighten u beyond ur wildest dreams . . . especialy if u want it too and ask that God speaks to u through his word, which is the bible . . . even the first women was decieved by satan .. . know how satan did this? by using God's very own word and twisting it and makeing eve trust satan . . . as we all have







we might b trsting satans lies right now . .. and u wont even know it . . . u'll think things are all cool but thats just how sneaky he is , master of deception man! expect the unexpected . . .

PM ME N E TIME

peace n luv b with everyone forever and always . . . may god have mercy on us ALL , so that we can join him in a blissful eternity . . . and not burn in tourment within the depths of hell . . .

it's obviuos there's good and evil in the world . . . and common sense should lead u towards good . . . i mean . . . if u had the choice btween good and bad , who in their RIGHT MIND would choose bad? over good? if u choose bad . . .then i feel so sorry for u and i pray for u everyday . . . and obviously . . ur not in the right mind . . . cuz ur being D E C I E V E D
[/quote]

how exactyly have you torn my post apart? All you have done is give your opinion backed up with no fact. This is slightly less than what i would expect froma small confused child, less because you can't spell so i suggest praying for some english lessons. I will be ready to catch sneaky satan hiding in dark alleys now, look you just scared me into being good so i don't go to hell! christianity is amazing.

heres another point i have forgotten to mention, look at waterfalls for example or rock formations. At the rate the stone erodes you can very accurately work out how long it would take for that structure to form. Why would god put something there with the appearance and making everything point to it being older than the world itself? Is this another test from god to test your faith? Its just too convenient i blame satan that sneaky little bastard








[/quote]

i blame satan for every soul that doesnt know god

sorry for not being humble in my previous post. . . i got carried away and was wrong to do so and hope u forgive me . . . in no way am i better than u or n e one else . .

i just pray that u come to know God, for your sake, and for Gods


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

pottsburg said:


> So because Muslims are blowing people up and ruining everything, because cigarette companies are killing millions, because Enron execs and Martha Stuart ripped off millions of dollars, my mom and sister have to suffer by getting debilitating conditions? Don't take this personally, or any further than this topic, but you're a whackjob if you believe this.
> 
> If your wife or close person got cancer, you'd blame it on the evil of mankind? Karma is way more realistic than the idea of innocents being punished because of evildoers and sinful people. I've done alot of messed up stuff in my life, cheated on alot of girls, and tried alot of d-rugs. I'm perfecetly fine and in college to by a psychiatrist.
> 
> ...


tobacco compaines don't kill people any more than hardware companies smash people's thumbs by making hammers. people kill themselves with tobacco. PEOPLE make bad decisions stop blaming God. I don't blame YOU for what my brother does wrong do i?

there are NO innocents. people are born with a desire do to bad things. it's just human nature. bad things happen to good people. it's true. what should God do? do away with free will and force people to do what he wants so we don't have any more wars or famine or disease? forget that i love and respect a God that gives me a choice and loves me eventhough he knows i'll let him down.

and about your mom and sister, if they truely gave their lives to God why don't you ask them if they still love him? ask them if it was worth it. my girlfriend is epileptic too. i deal with that on a daily basis. does she love God anyway? absolutely. we're all here with problems. some do truely have greater problems but everyone who's walking around is at the limit of emotional and physical pain, misery is misery no matter how bad it is.

if God came out and proved his existence, if he had a cable acess show every thursay night, it would cheat people out of being able to have faith. we need God, he doesn't need us. it's easy to know something will happen or see it on tv. it's much harder to spend your life trying to know and understand something as incomprehensible as God and his love. i enjoy the process.


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## ESPMike (Mar 23, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> what I get from you, is you want to hear what is in the Bible, to strengthen why you are so above believing it. To me, that is wasting my time.
> It would be different if you, or whoever starts these types of threads, were actually openly searching, but like you said.. you are not, so what are you doing here, exept trying to humiliate, and trip up Christians?
> 
> No matter what I say or do in here, you will find fault in it. That's ok, I'm used to this stuff, don't mean I have to like it
> ...


I think your miisunderstanding. First of all I do consider myself a Christian like Ive said before, but not in such a harsh and relentless sense. Second of all, I dotn ask these questions to get answers for myself, I ask them out of simple curiosity of how deout Christians look at things. I guess one reason this interests me is that my sister is a very religious Christian, and she feels thinks down about anyone who does not attend church 4 or 5 times a week like she does, and she refuses to even socialize with people (including family) that doesnt go to her church. I guess alot of my curiosity comes from wondering what goes through someones mind in that state.

Trying to humiliate and trip up Christians? How so? All I did was express my opinion about how I perceive the stories in the Bible, which I have read. I said I perceive them as stories, and not at all to be factual accounts. Me and Jeff were discussing this and how he perceived it as a "dangerous way to think."

When I say I live my life to the fullest, how does that immediately make you presume I take advantage of my freedom? Maybe I dont live by the constraints on life that you do, but is that taking advantage? Do I steal, do drugs, lie, kill, commit adultery? No. I live a moral life and follow what I believe to be the essential rules of a moral person, who I think God will happily except. I dont think I need to preach, and read the bible, and go to church in order to be a good person and a person that God will accept. In fact I think God wants us to enjoy life and its pleasures, not avoid them as is demanded by the church. Abusing my freedom to hurt myself? Hardly. I am simply thinking for myself based on ym own beliefs about God. And just because thats not what I have been told to do by a church and priest, doesnt mean that it isnt what God really wants. You are wasting your time though, because you obviously consider your beliefs to be far superior to anyone elses, and refuse to accept others outlooks on Christianity, and even religion in general, as even plausible much less exceptible.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> I dont think I need to preach, and read the bible, and go to church in order to be a good person and a person that God will accept.


That is called the way of Cain in the Bible.

I don't believe I have to do a thing other than accept the free gift of salvation either..
But there are signs that are evidence of a new life in Christ, and they are laid out in the Bible. The prophecys are there, and they are the very reason we can have assurance of our salvation.
And if the Spirit of God resides in your heart, there is new life.. The Spirit moves people to do things..
"the wind blows, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit"
you are going to love this.. lol
If you are telling me that you have not lied, I personally don't believe you. The Bible tells me that if you will not forgive someone who wrongs you, or hate someone, you are a murderer already.
It also says that if you lust after a woman in your heart that you have committed adultery, and you are guilty of it, the same as I..
IT is simply telling us that we are all born with the sin nature, and we can not rely on obediance of the law for salvation.. That has been the case from the beginning, some disagree, but if you ask me, it was the blood of the Lamb of God that saved even Abraham.
If the law was sufficient, then you would have to be absolutely perfect your whole life, with no room to make mistakes.. and I do not think you, I, or anyone that I have ever met, was perfect. 'For the wages of sin is death"

So, if I hear someone who calls themeslves a Christian say "all I have to do is be good, and I'll be saved" -I know that person either is spiritually lost, or not growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord

And if someone is a Christian, they have spent some time in the presence of God. IF that is true, we desire to spend time with God in prayer and reading His word.. because you tasted how wonderful He is
One of the prophecys is, "we long for the pure milk of the word" and we will be "people of prayer" and we will "know them by the love for the bretheren"
and if prayer is time spent with God, then as you spend time with Him, you become more like Him, because we are influenced by Him. --He loves people and desires that all come to Him for salvation.. And He uses us to deliver the message in lots of cases..even if it means we get persecuted for it

So completely forsaking the assembly of the bretheren, or not loving other Christians, making fun of them, or hating on them, and what they stand for is someones practice, I have to seriously doubt, personally, according to the evidence laid out in scripture, that they have ever made a commitment to Christ, which is the only way to become a "Christian."


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> First of all I do consider myself a Christian like Ive said before, but not in such a harsh and relentless sense.


You are a much better Christian than I brother, I'll give you that--I guess you would rather me just agree with you



> my sister is a very religious Christian, and she feels thinks down about anyone who does not attend church 4 or 5 times a week like she does, and she refuses to even socialize with people (including family) that doesnt go to her church. I guess alot of my curiosity comes from wondering what goes through someones mind in that state.


Did I say, or do any of that? am I your sister? why am I lumped in with your sisters actions?



> In fact I think God wants us to enjoy life and its pleasures


I agree completely that God wants us to be happy people who enjoy life!
Do you think I don't enjoy life? LOL
But there is a point when we hurt ourselves and others as a result. God hates that, and does not want that in us. That is where the line is drawn--but _God is all about truth, and truth hurts people, and makes them very angry. _ 


> I am simply thinking for myself based on ym own beliefs about God.


and I believe that is the danger Jeff was speaking of.. _we come to God His way, not ours_. That again, is the way of Cain, which we see is not accepted.. We are saying that "my way is better than Gods" when we are like that. It is pure arrogance towards God--NOT ME.



> You are wasting your time though, because you obviously consider your beliefs to be far superior to anyone elses, and refuse to accept others outlooks on Christianity, and even religion in general, as even plausible much less exceptible.


I try to get what I believe _from what Jesus Christ convicted me of on the day of my conversion..That is what Christians do_
_We are convicted that the Bible is His word on the day of our conversion_.. And there are millions of us.. Seems like something is going on there..
It isn't my word. I try to get what I believe from His word, not my head, or some other source... see, you are always trying to assume what I believe and kick sand in my face.
--_I don't go around making up my own faith_.. *I trust Christ for my salvation*, _it is His faith, and His words, and His way, not mine_
Adding to, or taking away from the Bible is warned against in the pages of it.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

WolfFish said:


> gods not sounding like such a nice chap really...he could make the world a better place with no effort but doesn't? But thats when the faith comes in that i really don't understand. Knowing this but hoping he has good reason for it. But what i don't get is why he wiped out all evil before but not again so it contradicts your point to some extent.
> 
> Religion is confusing the hell out of me i am going to just be a sinner and take the risk


the world is the way it is mostly because of our own mistakes. crime and war are man created things we have control over. as for disease and natural disasters, those come as a result of not living in eden anymore







and the next time evil is due to be eradicated is called judgement day


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

McDoddridge said:


> gods not sounding like such a nice chap really...he could make the world a better place with no effort but doesn't? But thats when the faith comes in that i really don't understand. Knowing this but hoping he has good reason for it. But what i don't get is why he wiped out all evil before but not again so it contradicts your point to some extent.
> 
> Religion is confusing the hell out of me i am going to just be a sinner and take the risk


the world is the way it is mostly because of our own mistakes. crime and war are man created things we have control over. as for disease and natural disasters, those come as a result of not living in eden anymore







and the next time evil is due to be eradicated is called judgement day
[/quote]
^^ agreed

We have made the world what it is, its not what God intended, and he wants us to try to fix it. Its a test and we have to overcome the evils and accept God and Jesus Christ and our saviour and Holy Spirit if we are to go into heaven.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

Trigga said:


> gods not sounding like such a nice chap really...he could make the world a better place with no effort but doesn't? But thats when the faith comes in that i really don't understand. Knowing this but hoping he has good reason for it. But what i don't get is why he wiped out all evil before but not again so it contradicts your point to some extent.
> 
> Religion is confusing the hell out of me i am going to just be a sinner and take the risk


the world is the way it is mostly because of our own mistakes. crime and war are man created things we have control over. as for disease and natural disasters, those come as a result of not living in eden anymore







and the next time evil is due to be eradicated is called judgement day
[/quote]
^^ agreed

We have made the world what it is, its not what God intended, and he wants us to try to fix it. Its a test and we have to overcome the evils and accept God and Jesus Christ and our saviour and Holy Spirit if we are to go into heaven.
[/quote]

so are you saying god made a mistake when he created humans? God wanted the world to be different but somehow did a bad job? Humans are fundamentally flawed in design and god did that









I am done with this thread now, my point i will end on that i said before: There are lots of questions religion cannot answer, the ones they can were all based on 1 book. Science can not answer all the questions either and neither can we totally disprove religion enough to break peoples faith YET. But religion is medieval and will not change their ways but science is evolving all the time and finding new answers. Science, not religion, is the reason intelligent human beings are progressing, the reason we have medicine despite religions attempts to stop this. One day all your religious people will have to admit you have been wrong and you will be devastated. If it weren't for the humans who looked for logical reasoning humans will have died out or still be hunting wild animals and wearing fur. God is dead.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

WolfFish said:


> gods not sounding like such a nice chap really...he could make the world a better place with no effort but doesn't? But thats when the faith comes in that i really don't understand. Knowing this but hoping he has good reason for it. But what i don't get is why he wiped out all evil before but not again so it contradicts your point to some extent.
> 
> Religion is confusing the hell out of me i am going to just be a sinner and take the risk


the world is the way it is mostly because of our own mistakes. crime and war are man created things we have control over. as for disease and natural disasters, those come as a result of not living in eden anymore







and the next time evil is due to be eradicated is called judgement day
[/quote]
^^ agreed

We have made the world what it is, its not what God intended, and he wants us to try to fix it. Its a test and we have to overcome the evils and accept God and Jesus Christ and our saviour and Holy Spirit if we are to go into heaven.
[/quote]

so are you saying god made a mistake when he created humans? God wanted the world to be different but somehow did a bad job? Humans are fundamentally flawed in design and god did that :laugh:

I am done with this thread now, my point i will end on that i said before: There are lots of questions religion cannot answer, the ones they can were all based on 1 book. Science can not answer all the questions either and neither can we totally disprove religion enough to break peoples faith YET. But religion is medieval and will not change their ways but science is evolving all the time and finding new answers. Science, not religion, is the reason intelligent human beings are progressing, the reason we have medicine despite religions attempts to stop this. One day all your religious people will have to admit you have been wrong and you will be devastated. If it weren't for the humans who looked for logical reasoning humans will have died out or still be hunting wild animals and wearing fur. God is dead.
[/quote]

he is?







oh damn. GOD HELP US ALL, I guess.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

* Is surprized to have gotten both good and bad PMs about this thread and my personal answers.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

oh? I have had really boring pms i didn't even reply to...

Who is oldest man in the bible? I bet your wrong


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Genesis 5:27: And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> ok, I can't handle anymore today ..lol
> I personally think that out of all the people who are posting in this thread, there are like under 10% of them who are even listening to, or care at all about Biblicially sound answers.
> It is like amusement for everyone else.. So many come in to threads like this, so few search for God.


This thread is about prayer, so here is an example of a religious nutjob - me - praying.

"Lord, it says of your Son in Hebrews that He was "made heir of all things," that he gained this world as an inheritance. I therefore petition Him to allow his will to act through me in all I do and say, regardless that I fall short so often. For if Christ is in charge of this world, let his divine intentions be realized for his glory, despite that the adversary appears so strong in this world. This will of God will heal the sick and sow unity whever there is division. The only joy I should have is that I die to the world daily to honor the great sacrifice Christ made for me. All other joys procede from this simple act. And if it be in your will, Lord, I pray that you will protect our borders and this nation from the great threats that loom over us from every direction; that you bring peace to the world, unless it is too late. If you must destroy the world, then let that too be done for your glory. Finally, I pray for all my enemies that they may someday abandon their ways and find salvation. I especially pray for those living under hateful regimes, innocent people of peace that are dragged out in the middle of the night and murdered for not towing the party line. May they be saved from their hateful leaders whose souls are possessed by endless evil passions. I ask all these things in the name of your Son, Amen."

Religious whacko and proud of it.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

rchan11 said:


> Genesis 5:27: And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.


wrong


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

PastorJeff said:


> Regarding the whole Free-Will vs. Predestination issue...there are verses supporting both. So who knows, in the end I don't think it matters when you look at the job that we are supposed to do. It just has to be done either way.
> 
> Talk to you soon,
> 
> Jeffrey


 This has always been an interesting issue to me- Free Will verses Predestination.

Can an all powerfull, all knowing God not already be completely aware of everything that wil ever take place?

Can a person choose by their actions their own destiny or is everything we do all part of a larger plan?

Hmmmmm.... If one is to examine this from the biblical narritive and (for the sake of argument) go along with the idea that the bible is truely inspired by the God fella- then we learn that God is super powerfull (he created all the junk in the universe) and with above average smarts (he figgured out how to make all this junk in the universe work) and he has a sick sense of humor (he gave us this awesome peice of beauty- the female form, then allowed this form to have PMS)

but to get back to the question- does this all knowing fella know how everything is gonna happen and everything we're gonna do- do we not have a choice?

here's a few thingy's to consider-
1) according to the bible God has looked into the future and made declarations about things that would happen in the future- even said that certain peopel would do certain thingy's.
*for example- he named Cyrus as the guy who would overthrow Babylon- and said how he would do it, he also told Samson's mother that she would have a son and descrided what he would do in his life- all very nifty tricks

such thingy's could lead someone to think that God forced these people to do what they did- or that he already knows exactly what they would do (and thus this would be the case in every instance in the whole universe)

2) however one also needs to take into account how God has allowed himself to be described in the bible 
* for example- God describes himself as a person who "cannot lie"- he has bound himself to his own moral code and cannot go contrary to that code.. We also know this about God- "He loves rightousness and justice.." Psalms 33:5 and "..God is love" 1 Johnny 4:8 he also well describes hisself @ Exodus 34:5-7, but thats a bit long to put here,,

now take that information and look at him making adam and eve-

IF God made them and knew all along that once he made them, that he would give them one command to folow to prove they were loyal to him, and this command would then be passed along to all their offspring as a test of the loyalty to him- but before adam and eve even had any offspring that they would fail they test- and thus mankind at its infancy would be tossed out of Gods Grace- thus causing all the heart ache, all the injustice, the wars, the sickness and sufferig that man has expereinced since then.

If this was the case- could it be said he was a JUST God? Could such a God be truely LOVING?

IF in fact God knew how adam and eve would react than all these problems man is faced with are Gods doing.. Impossible if God is truely "Love and rightous and full of justice and Mercifull.

IF God in fact knows how EVERYTHING will work out already, then he is a liar..

case in point- (1) Hezekiah @ 2 Kings 20:1-6 ---- Homeboy gets sick and fears he's gonna bite the dust- in fact God sends ol Isiaih to tell him that he is gonna die and that he needs to get his junk in order- well sir, Hezzy gets upset and prays to God and begs him to let him live longer- so God sends Isiaih back to Hezzy, saying, "hey look i see ur upset and all and ur praying and teras have touched me, so i am gonna extend ur life.

NOW IF GOD KNEW that Hezzy wasn't gonna die- then his message to him at the start was a lie- something the bible says is impossible for him to do- HOWEVER, Hezzy's actions touched God so that he decided to personnaly intervene and thus the course of history was changed.

However God did not lie- Hezzy had free will to do as he pleased while still alive and his actions lead God to step in and change the outcome.

(2) Jonah 1:1,2 "the lord sent this message to Jonah... go to nineveh, and give them this announcement.. I am going to destroy you, for your wickedness rises before me, it smells to the highest heaven.."

So God is ready to nuke these fellers in nineveh- but does he? Well eventauly Jonah gets to Nineveh and warns everyone that their butt is toast- but what happens? Ohh well sir, the peeps get all upset and afraid and repent and plea to God to not cause them to perish.

IF God knew that this would be the reaction of the peeps- again, his message to them wooda been a lie (cuz it lead him to change his mind), however, the peeps reacted in a good way to the warning given to them- and God changed his mind and allowed them to continue to exist. (jonah 3:10 {living bible})

In both cases God outlined things that were set to occur- but in both instances what happened was diffrent than hat he had had announced- Both times the actions of other people resulted in Gods making a choice to (in hezzy's case, Get involved in the matter himself and change the outcome) and (in ninevehs case- deside to not act as he had planned). Free will, not predestination was at work here.

While God has the ability to look into the future and see how things will play out- this does not always mean that he does- or will often in the bible he has given people the chance to show God what they will do for him (abraham showing he was WILLING to offer up Issaac {Genesis 22:12) ect..)

*** to me it would matter greatly wether or not everything is predestined, if it is so, truely God is a sick puppy, one that is responsible for everything bad that has ever happened, and is even a liar- the very things christians are supposed to be hating ol Lucy Fur for.... If everything is predestined than God is no better than Satan... even worse.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

heres something to link science and religion, science can't explain where the matter came from that created the big bang, but where did god come from? No-one can know


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## als (Aug 23, 2003)

Religion kills.. live for today..


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> Religious whacko and proud of it.


Amen, very nice prayer, I will join you


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> *** to me it would matter greatly wether or not everything is predestined, if it is so, truely God is a sick puppy, one that is responsible for everything bad that has ever happened, and is even a liar- the very things christians are supposed to be hating ol Lucy Fur for.... If everything is predestined than God is no better than Satan... even worse.


Your missing the point of freewill, I think. God allows people to make descisions, and will not usually change the outcome, unless there is a repentance back to Him. Then, He still has the perfect judgement to let the consiquences play out, if it is right, and just.
I don't believe that everything is completely pre-destined, but freewill is allowed to play out.
In this way, God is blameless. He knows the end from the beginning yes, (which some call 'pre-destined') but individuals are simply allowed to do their thing. Completely. He knows who hates Him and who loves Him, and who is on the fence.

How is God responsible for evil when He created the potential of evil, but not evil itself? 
That is where freewill comes in, that is where love can or cannot be, that is where we are truly free, or slaves to a God of bondage.

God made the universe so that true love and freedom can exist. Without the potential of evil, there is no true love, or true freedom.

The God of the universe is a loving God, a God of true love and true freedom, where love, peace, joy, and kindness are absolutely supreme. 
However, we are in a place where drastic measures must take place.. There is a war of good vs evil in all mens hearts. 
This is extremely hard to articulate.. please bear with the answer


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

WolfFish said:


> Also what does satan do? just punish people in hell? or does he manipulate people to be evil, if so how? If satan was once an angel what happened before he fell, was there no hell? If god created angels why aren't they perfect, why did he go evil and how did an angel banished become the ruler of hell. Why does god let satan exist, why does god want humans to be punished for not having faith? He could easily show us he existed but wants us to have faith but he also gives us the freedom to make up own mind so why??


 I'd be more than happy to answer the Hell thingy- for one, Hell, as most people think of it, a fiery place of evil and torment where demons lurk, Satan rules and people pay for their sins with eternal torment- outdates the bible.

Huh? yeah, all that hubub is rooted, not in scriptures, but was slowly infused into the jewish/christian doctrines through several influences- asyrian, Babylonian, egyptian- but primarily through greek (i've often said that Plato had more influence over "christian" doctrine than Paul) thinking.

Originaly the biblical record shows us a Jewish nation who beleived that a person could be brought back to life by God, however untill that occured one was in a state of non existence- not immortal. when u see Hell in the O.T the word comes from Sheol- which wasn't a place of torment but basically conveyed the idea of the grave (Strongs Bibilical Concordence) where both rightous and wicked went.

Satan was one of the top doods in the heavens but choose to oppose God and claimed people could decide for themselves how to do things free of their creatures guidence- yet threw the O.T he remained part of the heavenly clan.

By Jesus days there were several philosphies going around about the after life (the old veiw still existed), the Sadducee's did not beleive in the resurection, the Pharisee's opposed them- Jospephus comments on this at depth so u can read that- i aint got time to rattle on about it... though he does Mention that many had been infected with helleniozed teachings..

but Jesus tosses out his two cents worth and offers out the belif that his follwers can come into immortal life by being loyal to him- and makes several comments about wicked ones facing Gehenna ( a constantly burning garbege dump outside of jerusalem..

usualy when u read those references in the bible its referred to as "how are ye to escape eternal damnation in hellfire.." or whatever..

however- the prevailing thoughts on Gehenna were as follows- Jews traditionally buried their dead- it was an act of honor- however those who were exucuted for their wicked ways had their bodies tossed into geheena- the idea being that it was a fitting destruction- and a complete end to them- as for their wickedness they beleived that Ol God would never resurrect them.

"the judgement of Gehenna" was a well known expression and was used to describe those who were felt to be so bad that they did not deserve to live again- when Jesus used it, it was not to impliy those facing it would suffer forever at Satan's hands..

Hades- also translated Hell was a greek word- the greeks did in fact use it to speak of the "underworld" however the Jews often used to speak in greek and their word Sheol had Hade's as its greek counterpart. This was used in the N.T it didnt mean suddenly that there was an underworld ruled by the Devil- in fact, Satan is said to be still in the heavens at time of the N.T's writing. When used, in the N.t. it would be incorrect to think of the word describing a place of eternal torment- such was never the implication of the bible writers.

and while the bible does mention that many would suffer torments forever - yet again, the word torment at one time meant one was actauly being imprisioned, not nescarily being forced to suffer actual pain.

and while many allude to the lake of fire in Revelation and say that is is describing hell (this place or ultimete suffering- read what Revelation says about the lake of fire AND hell "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 22:14) If the lake of Fire is Hell- then that makes no sense- death and hell are thrown into hell??

****** (basic summery of my book i am working on)*****

The bible makes clear that God does not enjoy people facing the consequences of their misconduct- he often in the bible went out of his way to warn people..

however i ascribe to the same beliefs that the anceint Jews held (the ones that beleived that those so wicked that they faced "the judgement of Gehena") in that Life is offered to all people- (a hereafter of sorts) if they choose for themselves to show they want to accept his way of doing thingy's. On the other hand- for those who by their actions and attitudes show that they reject Gods ways, then thats the end of em,,, he gives them a chance at life, they reject it and thus in the end reject life itself.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> I'd be more than happy to answer the Hell thingy- for one, Hell, as most people think of it, a fiery place of evil and torment where demons lurk, Satan rules


God rules hell too.. ya just can't get away from Him..



> Originaly the biblical record shows us a Jewish nation who beleived that a person could be brought back to life by God, however untill that occured one was in a state of non existence- not immortal


God is not bound to created time











> and while the bible does mention that many would suffer torments forever - yet again, the word torment at one time meant one was actauly being imprisioned, not nescarily being forced to suffer actual pain.


Jesus describe hell as a place of 'weaping, and gnashing of teeth'
All those terms were describing the same place.. you can describe a picture with 1,000 words, right?

Just thought I would share that, as a wierd, medeval thinking, whackjob of faith



> Religion kills.. live for today..


who isn't living for today? lol

and I agree, religion does kill



> ****** (basic summery of my book i am working on)*****


So, are you going to tell the Lord how He should have written the Bible? lol


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> > *** to me it would matter greatly wether or not everything is predestined, if it is so, truely God is a sick puppy, one that is responsible for everything bad that has ever happened, and is even a liar- the very things christians are supposed to be hating ol Lucy Fur for.... If everything is predestined than God is no better than Satan... even worse.
> 
> 
> Your missing the point of freewill, I think. God allows people to make descisions, and will not usually change the outcome, unless there is a repentance back to Him. Then, He still has the perfect judgement to let the consiquences play out, if it is right, and just.
> ...


Hmm i dunno Dippy i think u missed what i was saying-

Free Will exists so that we can have the chance to show by what we do wether we love God, his ways of doing things, wether we will be loyal to him or not. In Adam and Eve's case- God had set up a nice little deal for them- and said this is all urs if u choose to do what i ask of u.. He really didnt ask them to do something terribly difficult (fill the earth with peeps- which wooda meant lots of sex- Yay!




























) take care of the planet (steve irwin wooda liked that) and to not eat fruit off this one lil tree.

Free Will gave them two the chance to show they apreciated all God had doen for them, that they loved him for it and that they wanted to express that love by obeying him- or the chance to show that they were ungratefull, and had no desire to listen to him.

To have obeyed would be giving back to God honor he deserved, our way of glorifying God,,, those two choose not to do that.

In their case they had be given a choice at the beginning, essiantaily God said do these things and all this is urs forever, if you choose not to do them then the life i gave you i shall take back (they wood die) Thier choice would then have affected what God did, if they had obeyed him he wood have seen to it that they lived through eternity, if they choose otherwise, God would see to it that their life eventually came to and end. His course of action depened on THEIRS...

what u quoted from me, directly refers to the idea that everything that ever happened God knew in advance= or planned to happen- how i would veiw him. as a Monster even more Evil than the Devil. My whole post though gave an argument on why i do not belive that God planned al this out this way- or that he had known it would come to all this ( he had the power to see if it would- but did not choose to use that power)


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

> ****** (basic summery of my book i am working on)*****


So, are you going to tell the Lord how He should have written the Bible? lol
[/quote]

No Dippy, the book i have been working on for some time is a historical book- Like i said in my post- the concept of hell as most look at it today is not a picture coming right out of the bible, instead it is an accumulation of beliefs adopted by Jewish and Christian groups from other religions- such as egyptions, assyrians, the babyalonions and most importantly, the Greek culture.

And as i mentioned, even a historian living at almost the same time as Jesus, while familer with the concept of a few jews believing "hellfire" as most today know it, he described these ones as having been "poisened" with hellenized thinking.

What my book will cover is about why those pagan ideal's and doctrines crept into the beleifs of jews and christians and how the idea of Hellfire has evolved over the last 4,000 years or so.

So its not so much me "telling the lord how he should have written the bible" as how the idea's (or idea in this case) in the bible that God had written have been changed by some people.

Nothing in my book is brand new- or revolutionary, the non christain origins of Helfire are well documented- as well as its acceptence into mainstream christian thinking.

heck u can see that just watching the history channel...


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## Trigga (Jul 1, 2006)

Oheye8one2 said:


> No Dippy, the book i have been working on for some time is a historical book- Like i said in my post- the concept of hell as most look at it today is not a picture coming right out of the bible, instead it is an accumulation of beliefs adopted by Jewish and Christian groups from other religions- such as egyptions, assyrians, the babyalonions and most importantly, the Greek culture.
> 
> And as i mentioned, even a historian living at almost the same time as Jesus, while familer with the concept of a few jews believing "hellfire" as most today know it, he described these ones as having been "poisened" with hellenized thinking.
> 
> ...


You are absoloutly right the bible has been changed over and over again throughout history by different cultures and empires since it was made. Its not the same bible written by God or the New Testemet written by the disciples of Jesus, but it still has some truth to it and still carries the same basic message.


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## Scrap5000 (Mar 4, 2005)

People need to feel that they have some control over their lives, and so pray to something that isn't real, but it sure makes them feel better.

Kind of like when your wife or girl goes on & on & on & on & on & on about her day...you pretend to listen b/c it makes her feel better...even tho she probably knows you didn't hear a word she said.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

Scrap5000 said:


> > ****** (basic summery of my book i am working on)*****
> 
> 
> So, are you going to tell the Lord how He should have written the Bible? lol


 No Dippy, the book i have been working on for some time is a historical book- Like i said in my post- the concept of hell as most look at it today is not a picture coming right out of the bible, instead it is an accumulation of beliefs adopted by Jewish and Christian groups from other religions- such as egyptions, assyrians, the babyalonions and most importantly, the Greek culture.

And as i mentioned, even a historian living at almost the same time as Jesus, while familer with the concept of a few jews believing "hellfire" as most today know it, he described these ones as having been "poisened" with hellenized thinking.

What my book will cover is about why those pagan ideal's and doctrines crept into the beleifs of jews and christians and how the idea of Hellfire has evolved over the last 4,000 years or so.

So its not so much me "telling the lord how he should have written the bible" as how the idea's (or idea in this case) in the bible that God had written have been changed by some people.

Nothing in my book is brand new- or revolutionary, the non christain origins of Helfire are well documented- as well as its acceptence into mainstream christian thinking.

heck u can see that just watching the history channel...
[/quote]

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Jam 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

what about the concept of hellfire is manufactured by history? thought i'll give you dante. that was messed up.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Oheye8one2 said:


> *** to me it would matter greatly wether or not everything is predestined, if it is so, truely God is a sick puppy, one that is responsible for everything bad that has ever happened, and is even a liar- the very things christians are supposed to be hating ol Lucy Fur for.... If everything is predestined than God is no better than Satan... even worse.


The bottom line is that we (mankind) has created the division of free-will vs. predestination. I don't know which one is right and I don't think we will until the day we die.

Hope this makes sense. Man my fingers are tired!

Good stuff Ohey...thanks for your thoughts. Good stuff! I can tell you have really thought this out over a long period of time.


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## randomhero (Mar 29, 2004)

Pastorjeff, youre my hero :-D


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## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

Well, after about 14 pages I finally noticed this thread. I actually had a good time reading the majority of this too, while most religious based threads piss me off.

While Jeff's above comments are quite detailed and quite profound, for me, there is way too much *faith* involved in way of thinking. You've already made the following assumptions:

i) One God exists
ii) He is a Christian God
iii) Predestination is a real concept
iv) Free Will is a real concept

All 4 of these matters can be argued until the end of time. The problem with any type of justification is that most answers will result in a leap of faith. To me, this is inexcusable.

Pac


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

PacmanXSA said:


> Well, after about 14 pages I finally noticed this thread. I actually had a good time reading the majority of this too, while most religious based threads piss me off.
> 
> While Jeff's above comments are quite detailed and quite profound, for me, there is way too much *faith* involved in way of thinking. You've already made the following assumptions:
> 
> ...


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## black_piranha (Jan 12, 2006)

i call myself a christian. i used to go to church 2x a week for a couple months, but then i stopped goin. i think i pray to reassure myself sometimes and for all my sins usually. or i pray for someone in need.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

WolfFish said:


> Genesis 5:27: And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.


wrong
[/quote]
Why don't you enlighten me and quote from the Bible who's the oldest man.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

PacmanXSA said:


> Well, after about 14 pages I finally noticed this thread. I actually had a good time reading the majority of this too, while most religious based threads piss me off.
> 
> While Jeff's above comments are quite detailed and quite profound, for me, there is way too much *faith* involved in way of thinking. You've already made the following assumptions:
> 
> ...


THANK YOU...THANK YOU...THANK YOU!

This is my point from the get go. You are 100% right in everthing you are saying! It all comes down to faith.

Now for some, this is absolutely an illustration of stupidity (as has already been said in this thread), and to others this is a form of bravery and unmoving dedication. But NO MATTER how you view it, it is an individuals PERSONAL CHOICE to believe what they want to believe.

To you it may be inexcuseable (and I understand that) but to me it is so obvious that what I am saying is correct, that I can't understand how people can feel that way.

But I am willing to allow others to feel they way I feel. Will I deny how I feel. Nope. Never would...but that is my choice. To me it takes just as much faith to believe that God does not exsist as it does to believe that it doesn't.

If my fat self is going to set on a chair, I have to (unconsciously) formulate an opinion of two. Either the chair will hold me, or it won't. Either way it is a faith issue. You can look at it, determine the workmanship, the quality of material and so on. But in the end, it comes down to what we have determined to be "unconscious faith". We do this every day.

But which takes more faith? Faith that the chair will hold, or faith that it won't. Either way faith comes into play.

Hope that makes sense...good post Pac!


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

PastorJeff said:


> Good stuff Ohey...thanks for your thoughts. Good stuff! I can tell you have really thought this out over a long period of time.


 LOL, before an addiction to alcohol and an obsession with nekid chicks & an love for poker got the better of me I was enjoying the absolute finest education money can buy in the feild of religious studies - While i lack the title of Doctor, my academic credintials were sufficent to satisfy both parties and i was used in a court case a few yrs back as an expert witness in a case where "Faith" was involved... so hopefully i sorta know what i am talking about.

Hehe, i went from getting ordained to getting drunk awefully fast..


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

PacmanXSA said:


> Well, after about 14 pages I finally noticed this thread. I actually had a good time reading the majority of this too, while most religious based threads piss me off.
> 
> While Jeff's above comments are quite detailed and quite profound, for me, there is way too much *faith* involved in way of thinking. You've already made the following assumptions:
> 
> ...


Predestination is based on the foreknowlege of God that who will and will not accept Him as his personal Savior. God did not predestine certain people to everlasting punishment and others to everlasting bliss.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2Peter:3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

i can't quote it from the bible because i don't have one. But methusela died at 969 and his dad at 962. But enoch never died he was 'taken by god' so he must be 2000+


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## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

PastorJeff said:


> THANK YOU...THANK YOU...THANK YOU!
> 
> This is my point from the get go. You are 100% right in everthing you are saying! It all comes down to faith.
> 
> ...


Well, I think your analogy of the chair is a little too narrow. I can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, whether the chair will hold you or not (vis-a-vis physics) whereas I cannot do the same when I discuss the 4 concepts I previously mentioned. Other than that, much <3 baby!









@rchan: Not sure where you're going. To me it seems as if you're trying to justify predestination through the existence of God and in my opinion, you can't justify the existence of any God(s) in the first place, as per my first post here.

Regards,

Pac


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Trigga said:


> You are absoloutly right the bible has been changed over and over again throughout history by different cultures and empires since it was made. Its not the same bible written by God or the New Testemet written by the disciples of Jesus, but it still has some truth to it and still carries the same basic message.


 Umm thats not what i meant- i was saying that "christian" thought, supposedly based on the bible, has evolved and pagen influences have been allowed to corrupt the idea's that are presented in the bible- the case i was bringing up being Hellfire, an idea that was not a beleif that Moses, David, Daniel, Jerimiah and the rest of the O.T gang adherred to. Likewise it was not a teaching that was accepted in early christianity (that is not just my opionion but a historical fact).

The bible though- still very much exists in the same basic form it was written in- while it has been translated out of the original tongues it was written in- that by no means implies that it has been corrupted- Even Jesus (if christianity is to be beleieved- THE FOREMOST EXPERT on The BIBLE for obvious reasons) apparently quoted from the scriptures- not in aramic or hebrew as it was originally written in- but out of the greek Septuagint (a greek translation of the O.T), thus essiantially showing that it was acceptable to used the bible out of its original form.

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that the Bible we know and can read today has been corrupted by additions and subtractions to what was originally written- Yet thanks to achelogy we have over 5,000 full or partial manuscripts predating christ of the O.T and when compared with the bible of today- there is no changes that affect what is being said- the few diffrences that have been found are usualy slight changes in spelling of names, ect.

as for the N.T- which tradition holds was completed in the first century- some of the writings have had copies of them (manuscripts) discovered from within just a few years of when they would have been writtin

* Gospel of John (Circa early 90's A.D) the John Rylands Payrus {{P52}} dated to have been written aroud 100 A.D- within a decade of Johns writting

* Gospel of Matthew (circa 40ish A.D.) The Magdalen Papyrus {{p64}} dated to between 30 & 70 A.D

Paul's letters- nearly all of them (circa mid/late 50's A.d - mid 60's A.D) Chester Beatty collection {{p46}} all dated to before 81 A.D

1 timothy, James, Mark and Acts (circa mid 50's to mid 60's AD) - dead sea scrolls- all would have been writen BEFORE 70 A.D when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem.

a scholarly study has shown that these manuscripts are essentaily the same as what we see today in the same texts- again, the changes- mostly in spelling and grammer.

while is is not impossible to say that they have been deviations (1 johnny 5:7,8 as read in the King Jim bible comes to mind) it is easy to pick out such corruptions of the scriptures and make the needed corrections..

The educated examination of the bible reveals that what God wooda had written down has been passed down to us in remarkable accurecy to the the original writtings.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Oheye8one2 said:


> The educated examination of the bible reveals that what God wooda had written down has been passed down to us in remarkable accurecy to the the original writtings.


Very much so...to the point that there is little difference from the text then verses now...good post!

No other writing has as much accuracy...none.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Determinism and Free Will are directly linked to materialism and spiritualism. A materialists believes that everything in our universe has physical causes, a spiritualist believes that there are other forces at work, a soul, which have an effect on the physical world, and hence could create free-will. Unfortunately, there is simply no evidence for this.

Compatibilists say that determinism and free-will are compatible. Basically that the universe is determinstic, and our brains are created from this process, but that it doesn't matter, because we can still use reason and assess a situation apart from vested interest.

Humans are determined what they can do by the universe and our free will is bound with physics. I open a can of beer (or soda) I'm already determined what I may do with it. I cannot magically refill the can once empty even though I may want to.

Free will isn't something I totally agree with, I'm on the fence.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

WolfFish said:


> i can't quote it from the bible because i don't have one. But methusela died at 969 and his dad at 962. But enoch never died he was 'taken by god' so he must be 2000+


i think enoch was said to have dies when he was like 365 or sumthing, not 100% tho


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

McDoddridge said:


> i can't quote it from the bible because i don't have one. But methusela died at 969 and his dad at 962. But enoch never died he was 'taken by god' so he must be 2000+


i think enoch was said to have dies when he was like 365 or sumthing, not 100% tho
[/quote]

no at 300 and something he didn't die he was "taken by god" without having to die so technically hes the oldest guy in the bible


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

WolfFish said:


> i can't quote it from the bible because i don't have one. But methusela died at 969 and his dad at 962. But enoch never died he was 'taken by god' so he must be 2000+


i think enoch was said to have dies when he was like 365 or sumthing, not 100% tho
[/quote]

no at 300 and something he didn't die he was "taken by god" without having to die so technically hes the oldest guy in the bible
[/quote]









Look up what it means by "taken by God"...his life ended. Just not in a way that one would understand.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

PastorJeff said:


> i can't quote it from the bible because i don't have one. But methusela died at 969 and his dad at 962. But enoch never died he was 'taken by god' so he must be 2000+


i think enoch was said to have dies when he was like 365 or sumthing, not 100% tho
[/quote]

no at 300 and something he didn't die he was "taken by god" without having to die so technically hes the oldest guy in the bible
[/quote]









Look up what it means by "taken by God"...his life ended. Just not in a way that one would understand.
[/quote]
Thank you Pastor!


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## User (May 31, 2004)

What is people of religious faith view on the "revelation" ezekiel and the book of daniel that are interested in this thread ?


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

i thought going to heaven was eternal life...he did not die then went onto eternal life so therefore he never had a death.

(i didn't make this up)


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## User (May 31, 2004)

WolfFish said:


> i thought going to heaven was eternal life...he did not die then went onto eternal life so therefore he never had a death.
> 
> (i didn't make this up)


Actually when I went to church, every human has an eternal life - heaven is just one of two places to call home for eternity. Humans both scientific and striky religious can't understand eternity IMHO.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

BTW I love how I've got emails saying how dangerous I am to religion now that I've "backslid" and that its better to have never known "Jesus" that to have turned my back on him. People are very interesting.


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## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

User said:


> BTW I love how I've got emails saying how dangerous I am to religion now that I've "backslid" and that its better to have never known "Jesus" that to have turned my back on him. People are very interesting.


You haven't necessarily turned your back on anything. You may have turned your back on a man that lived at one point; that may be about it.

If people wanna condemn you for it; they're hypocrits and will burn in their own "Hell" anyways according to their own beloved scripture.

Ironic isn't it









Pac


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

WolfFish said:


> i thought going to heaven was eternal life...he did not die then went onto eternal life so therefore he never had a death.
> 
> (i didn't make this up)


well then assuming any of the people before him went to heavan then they would be the oldest now wouldn't they?


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

On predestinaion, Evangalist George E Smock, in _The Mystery of Christ_, writes,



> Romans 8:29-30 reads: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
> 
> Paul was not referring to particular individuals or a select number whom God willed to be eternally saved as the Calvinists teach, nor was he speaking of particular persons whom God foresaw would respond to the gospel as the Arminians teach. Paul was simply teaching that God knew long before the gospel was proclaimed to the nations of the world, that he was going to have a group of people (the Elect or the Church), who would be conformed to the image of his Son, that is he would have a people who were Christ-like in character.
> 
> Predestination as a Biblical idea refers to God's general plan to have a holy people. Election refers to God's method of choosing particular groups and individuals to carry out his plans. Biblically these terms are primarily associated with the call of the Jews and Gentiles to join together, "to make in himself of twain one new man (the Church), so making peace," between these two estranged people. (Eph 2:15) These terms should not be associated with some fictitious Calvinistic notion, that God unconditionally elected before Creation certain individuals to eternal salvation and reprobated the rest of humanity to eternal destruction.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Fargo said:


> On predestinaion, Evangalist George E Smock, in _The Mystery of Christ_, writes,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

McDoddridge said:


> i thought going to heaven was eternal life...he did not die then went onto eternal life so therefore he never had a death.
> 
> (i didn't make this up)


well then assuming any of the people before him went to heavan then they would be the oldest now wouldn't they?
[/quote]

Ummm whose saying anyone went to heaven before him? - The Gospel according to Johhny chapter 3 and verses 12,13- "If i have told you earthly things and you do not beleive, how can you beleive if i tell you heavenly things? * no one has ascended into heaven * but he who descended from heaven, the son of man.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

McDoddridge said:


> i thought going to heaven was eternal life...he did not die then went onto eternal life so therefore he never had a death.
> 
> (i didn't make this up)


well then assuming any of the people before him went to heavan then they would be the oldest now wouldn't they?
[/quote]

NO. Methuela DIED then went to heaven. He could of died then gone to hell. Enoch did not die he was taken to heaven BEFORE he died so never did.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Oheye8one2 said:


> [NO. Methuela DIED then went to heaven. He could of died then gone to hell. Enoch did not die he was taken to heaven BEFORE he died so never did.


I'm not going to argue with you, Enoch's life ended on earth when God took him.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

PacmanXSA said:


> You haven't necessarily turned your back on anything. You may have turned your back on a man that lived at one point; that may be about it.
> 
> If people wanna condemn you for it; they're hypocrits and will burn in their own "Hell" anyways according to their own beloved scripture.
> 
> ...


Many people have condemned me but that doesn't upset or bother me. I especially find it ironic that those who believe in calvinistic religious predestination condemn those that are not religious and then cancel out the whole predestination concept. I'm not fully complete in my understand on how I'm dangerous to religions. I simply seek the truth and question everything now. There isn't a post in this whole thread that I couldn't refute or fight off that I deemed worthy to pursue.

This topic isn't even near the level of debate that I've been through. Infact it was rather easy. I've been in axiom debates with people that have lasted for months (offline). Ultimately the majority had to submit rather than look more foolish than when they started the non-sense.


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## joey'd (Oct 26, 2005)




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## User (May 31, 2004)

I hope this topic does continue. I again say with honestly that I've enjoyed it.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

User said:


> Many people have condemned me but that doesn't upset or bother me. I especially find it ironic that those who believe in calvinistic religious predestination condemn those that are not religious and then cancel out the whole predestination concept.


I think you have to be careful with what you are doing here User. I have never sent you a PM let alone one on this issue. But with posts like this you place a wonder in peoples minds regarding "who would do such a thing"

I am sorry you got PM's from people...but it is called "Private Message" for a reason. It is private. You should take your offense to the people/person who sent it rather than air the dirty laundery here.

Hope you get it worked out...


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## User (May 31, 2004)

PastorJeff said:


> I think you have to be careful with what you are doing here User. I have never sent you a PM let alone one on this issue. But with posts like this you place a wonder in peoples minds regarding "who would do such a thing"
> 
> I am sorry you got PM's from people...but it is called "Private Message" for a reason. It is private. You should take your offense to the people/person who sent it rather than air the dirty laundery here.
> 
> Hope you get it worked out...


I suppose that you have a point. But yeah you have sent me a PM before. If you think back you may remember what it was over.









Anyways, I've gotten *emails* over this thread and a few people haven't been nice enough to give there forum name.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

User said:


> I suppose that you have a point. But yeah you have sent me a PM before. If you think back you may remember what it was over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You got me...don't remember that. And I checked my PM's and don't have it.


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> You're taking the verse out of context. Finish up the verse!
> John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
> 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
> 
> Jesus was telling Nicodemus about Heaven. No man hath ascended up to Heaven, and came down to tell what Heaven is like, except for the Son of man.


 On the contrary, Jesus wasn't describing heaven- he was speaking on spiritual matters that were to Nicky uncomprehensible (the spiritual matters being "the heavenly things") I did in fact quote the entire verse- You on the other hand added to the verse by including "and" changing the meaning of what Jesus was saying-

all i was doing was pointing out a fact that Jesus happened to make in the course of this conversation- that in his day (jesus) that NO one had ever acsended into heaven- nobody, Zilch, nadda, aint ever happened-

again as i mentioned before, most "christians" today neglect history in establishing their beleif systems, Jews of jesus day beleived that when anyone died they went to hell- aka Sheol-

according to the new strongs bible dictionary of bible words sheol is described as such (in part) "sheol is the abode of the dead, a place of degradation,the locality or condition of those who have died or been destroyed.... It is not understood to be a place of punishment, but simply the ultimete resting placeof ALL MANKIND (Gen 37:35 {grave used in this instance not word hell in King Jim bible}

this is collabrated on by the rest of the bible in places like Ecclesiastes 9:5,6- "for the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more reward: for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hated and their envy is now perished.... blah blah blah..

this also explains why David according to the bible never went to heaven- Acts 2:34 " No David was not speaking of himself in these words of his i have quoted, for he never ascended into the skies. Moreover, he firther stated, God spoke to my lord, the Messiah, and said to him.. Blah blah blah"- Living Bible (blah blah blah mine, not actauly to be found in the bible LOL)

same verse King Jim Bible- "For david is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand"

to sum up- Jesus in talking to Nicky made a comment that wooda been common knowledge to Nicky- that no one has of course ever came down from heaven( not even good ol king Dave)- why was this the case?- cuz as both of them beleived that when a peep bite the dust they went to hell (aka the grave) and in that state were totaly unaware of anything and didnt know a damned thing..


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

User said:


> Anyways, I've gotten *emails* over this thread and a few people haven't been nice enough to give there forum name.


why have you had so many negative pm's? What have you said in this thread i can't remember. I must have said worse things...i would be disappointed if i hadn't.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

PastorJeff said:


> Anyways, I've gotten *emails* over this thread and a few people haven't been nice enough to give there forum name.


why have you had so many negative pm's? What have you said in this thread i can't remember. I must have said worse things...i would be disappointed if i hadn't.
[/quote]

Meh I don't know why, don't care why just would have liked to have known who sent them. Anyway, I wouldn't want to derail just a good thread. I withdraw the PM and email questions and statements.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

delete.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> This topic isn't even near the level of debate that I've been through. Infact it was rather easy. I've been in axiom debates with people that have lasted for months (offline). Ultimately the majority had to submit rather than look more foolish than when they started the non-sense.


I droped out of this thread because I simply don't care to argue,(basically the same as debating, in a big way)

I personally don't think that if someone doesn't agree with you, or find a conversation the way you want to pull it interesting, that they are submitting so they don't look foolish.
Fatih looks like foolishness to the natural world anyway. So count me as a fool, who doesn't care if he looks foolish or not. That is what I will always look like to someone like you. 
I do not think that the more intelligence I covet, or aquire, brings me any closer to the God I serve. Only submission will do that.
Faith comes down to 'do you believe, and love Jesus Christ, or not'
That is the only real question to me..

I don't believe the Bible because archaeology has proved that David was a real person, or that the walls of Jericho fell outwards, that a huge firey furnace was unearthed in Babylon, or that the top laid bricks in the city of Goshen did not have straw in them..

I believe because God convicted me that it is His word on the day of my conversion. That is it. And I was just like everyone else, and would not say a word about Jesus, or the Bible only 2.5 short years ago.

Sorry if I have tryed to stick to the Bible, instead of trying to dazzle people with worldly, intelectual logic on the subject.. I'm not very dazzling anyway, nor do I care to be.

And please, don't be paranoid about me, if I emailed you, I would want you to know it was me.. lol I have nothing against you, or anyone at all. I can not hate someone for too long, especially over a silly debate lol


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## User (May 31, 2004)

I hope that people (including yourself) understand that I have no problem with your personal faith or anyone elses, but I do if it enters my personal life viva politics and laws. I'm a very honest person and would take truth over personal comfort & reassurance anytime. I'm a person that would choose to keep bad memories because they're truth rather than have them taken from me for comfort. I value honestly and I believe you are of value and that you nor PastorJeff or Rchan11 sent those messages.

I'm not a smart person, many people have tried say that, but again, truth over comfort is that I'm not. I don't try to dazzle anyone. I'm lucky to have got to where I am.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Thank you for your honor of respecting our faith.


> but I do if it enters my personal life viva politics and laws


The Bible says justice is a virtue, let's hope that our legal system says that as well, agreed?... If a quote 'religious' law eneterd your life, and it was arguably just, would you attack it as purely 'religious,' and on what ground, other than a percentage of religious people supported it?

Let's say if abortion became illegal.. It really can be argued that it is merely 'just,' and not absolutely religious.
And what type of law would you declare 'religious,' if that one was simply a 'just' one?

And, honestly, aren't we living under plently of quote 'religious' laws, simply due to the just nature of them? And lots of those are in the 10 commandments, like stealing, murder, lying (at least under oath), and adultery.. are you upset that those laws are in effect as well?



> I value honestly and I believe you are of value and that you nor PastorJeff or Rchan11 sent those messages.


Thank you! I don't think it was either of us as well







thanks again


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Thank you for your honor.
> 
> 
> > but I do if it enters my personal life viva politics and laws
> ...


That is a very good set of questions. Religious laws that protect pure life I support regardless. Laws that hender personal choice and that does not harm life other than to the person that choose it, religious are non, I wouldn't support. My definition of harm is wide and far and would probably mirror biblical views - if they do than so be it.

Child molestation & other abuse, verbal & mental abuse, and premeditated murder laws should be toughened and enforced harshly. Real discipline and basic respect should be more common nowdays.

I've known many people that didn't believe in God and therefore didn't understand no reason for basic discipline and respect to be an issue in society. Discipline is a human principle, respect and honor are nearly non-existent to millions of people. Humans principles are linked to emotional and mental development and why people want to discard development just because a higher power may not exist is illogical. People should feel a need to become wise and try to understand everything that can.

And yet those same people would be against me killing someone in defense who entered my house with intent to kill or harm. Ironic isn't it ? Self defense is apart of "evolution" or survival.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Interesting comments..

But still, I am really interested to know what law would you not tolerate, that would be a 'religious' one?

I know one that I would never support.. 
That would be if there was a law that said you had to be a certain faith, or face punnishment, or even death. That is about the only one I can think of..
Those laws are certainly in place in some countrys around the world, even how rediculously silly, and offensive they are. You can not 'force' anyone to believe anything, therefore the law is absolutely horrendous, and in violation of any humans dignity.

I've heard there was a 'so called' Christian dictator at one time in history, that forced people to accept Christianity, or face punnishment.. So, therefore, I am overjoyed that the Scriptures are in MASS circulation at this point in history. That type of unbiblical non-sence could not happen without Christians everywhere quoting constantly, the very Scriptures that makes this sort of behavior seperate from the law of God, in the Bible.
The true horrendous thing is, that a certain faith can justify this action when you dig in it's scripture. A faith of unjust spiritual darkness..

EDIT:: I can not agree with any law that restricts the free practice of a non-violent, peaceful faith, that causes no real threat to anyone.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> You've already made the following assumptions:
> i) One God exists


I sometimes ask people that call themselves Atheists, if they would argue that a building has a builder.

Obviously, and some have very ingenious designs! 
Now, take a close examination of the human eye. More complex than any super computer. It would take hours for a computer to do what the human eye can do in 2 seconds. --Also has been around quite some time before any computer was invented

Then we can look at how much knowledge anyone really knows for sure. A certified genious couldn't even know any more than 1% of complete knowledge there is to know. You can have great knowledge in some subjects, but there are many other things you may know absolutely nothing about.

So, we can say that no one knows everything. So, a statement like 'There is no God' can not be stated with credibility, simply because the person who stated that has to have complete, and total knowledge of all things. And nobody does.

So, the person who calls himself a true Atheist, is actually an agnostic at very best, because the statement 'God does not exist' can not be made by any man in any honesty whatsoever.

So if we logically look at a tree, or a flower, or the human eye, you have to understand that there almost has to be a Designer, how perfectly things work together.. in fact, it is almost completely illogical to 'rule out' that there is/was a Designer.

So if there was a Designer, and He did communicate to us through the Bible, we should recognize that we all have violated His commands completely.
We have all lied, most have taken something of any value that wasn't ours, we all have used God's name in vain, we have all (according to Jesus) had lustful thoughts about someone that wasn't ours in marriage.

If we are guilty of any of these things, and the Bible is this Designers word to us, we would all rightfully go to hell..
But that Designer also gave us His son, that paid the price for all our wrongs, and the Designer said that if we accept His Son's sacrifice to forgive all of our disobediance, and repent from doing things our way, we can be with Him in complete joy and peace for all eternity.

He even said that He would _manifest Himself _ to anyone who forsakes his own way, and comes near to Him.

How can anyone reject this offer? He will even _manifest Himself to anyone who gives Him a real shot.._ Incredible, simply amazing.. He did it for me, He can do it for you.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

ok here are a list of my stupider questions that i didn't feel were worth posting:

1.If you sin all your life but then in your last hour of life you feel bad for it and pray etc will you go to heaven?
2.If your mentally ill and kill someone and your too ill to know what you have done and therefore don't pray will you go to hell?
3.Did god forgive the people who killed jesus?
4.What was jesus even killed for? Was saying god was real worthy of a death sentence? If it was then what the hell were the jews worshipping?
5.Can you get kicked out of heaven? 
6.Can you get out of hell?
7.If you never sin but don't believe in god do you still go to hell?
8.Why doesn't satan come to earth? He is evil so why would he care about any self choice or balance? I know he can because in the bible he showed himself to jesus to tempt him.
9.Why is rock and metal 'devil music'
10.Will you go to hell for liking rock and metal?


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

WolfFish said:


> ok here are a list of my stupider questions that i didn't feel were worth posting:
> 
> 1.If you sin all your life but then in your last hour of life you feel bad for it and pray etc will you go to heaven? *if you're sincere and truly asking God for forgiveness, yes you will be saved.*
> 2.If your mentally ill and kill someone and your too ill to know what you have done and therefore don't pray will you go to hell?*above my spritual paygrade. hopefully someone else will field this one.*
> ...


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> 1.If you sin all your life but then in your last hour of life you feel bad for it and pray etc will you go to heaven?


If you make a real statement of faith to Jesus Christ, yes. Will anyone have that opportunity? That is not known.
But if there is an opportunity to make a statement of faith in Christ in your last moments, it is proven by scripture that you will be saved.


> 2.If your mentally ill and kill someone and your too ill to know what you have done and therefore don't pray will you go to hell?


God judges people with perfect justice. Every individual has a different story, and God judges them with perfect grace and mercy too. That being said, He would take all things into consideration before final judgement.


> 3.Did god forgive the people who killed jesus?


I would have to say that depended on each individual, and their descisions


> 4.What was jesus even killed for? Was saying god was real worthy of a death sentence? If it was then what the hell were the jews worshipping?


He was murdered for blasphemy, and treason. He accused the ruling class Pharisees, and Sadducees, that they were teaching falsely about God, violated their false veiw of the Sabbath, and Jesus implied that He was the Messiah.
Then on top of that, He was accused of trying to whip up dissention against the Romans--They used the title 'King Of The Jews' for that. There is much underlying wonderful parallels and morsels of info about all of that.. awesome to get into, really


> 5.Can you get kicked out of heaven?


According to scripture, there seems to be absolute peace and joy in heaven. No where does it say that, so I would say no.


> 6.Can you get out of hell?


Again, in scripture there is no place where it says you can get a pass for good behavior in hell..lol


> 7.If you never sin but don't believe in god do you still go to hell?


 Well, if the Bible is God's word, whoever said they never sinned would be calling God a liar. Therefore according to the Bible, liars who never repented would go to hell. (we are all liars, and need to accept Christ, our only hope of salvation)


> 8.Why doesn't satan come to earth? He is evil so why would he care about any self choice or balance? I know he can because in the bible he showed himself to jesus to tempt him.


The Bible says that he is here, and has been for a long time. He didn't create anything... I'm not fully sure I understand this question..reword please?


> 9.Why is rock and metal 'devil music'


Some would disagree with me, but I'll try to give you what I believe is the truth about this.. I believe that no 'music' is devil music, unless the spirit, and/or idea in it is satanic. Any lyrics that contradict the truths found in Biblical scripture can be classified as satanic. 


> 10.Will you go to hell for liking rock and metal?


I like the sound of rock and metal.. But I get sad, and actually hate what deceptions that spew fourth from any music that puts fourth a stumbling block to anyone comming to faith in Christ. 
But to answer your question, the only way anyone goes to hell according to the Bible is by rejecting our savior who conquered sin and death, the Lord Jesus Christ.


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## C0Rey (Jan 7, 2006)

Dippy you must be getitng exhausted.You are really working hard to explain all these things to us, and i apreciate it. Just dont feel obliged to.

if more believers would behave like you i guess it would be so bad.


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## mdrs (May 1, 2006)

wolf, i think i understand what you mean about Satan coming to earth. why doesn't he come to earth fire and brimstone style? why doesn't satan assume demonic form on earth and wreak havoc on the nine o' clock news? if so i have an answer.

satan's number one goal is to lead men astray. the BEST weapon he has is that he doesn't require people to believe in him. in fact his job is easier in that people WANT to belive they're the "highest" entity in the universe. if he allows men to wreak havoc on each other and nudges here and there he can work actively while at the same time offering no proof. if satan came to earth and made a splash, it would be a lot harder to not belive in God. you can't say that there is no God or Satan if one of them is manifesting in the world making headlines.

that being said, i'm not the devil so i coudn't possibly KNOW. but if i were fighting a war simply aimed at leading people away from my adversary, i wouldn't prove his existence if i didn't have to.

make sense?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

C0Rey said:


> Dippy you must be getitng exhausted.You are really working hard to explain all these things to us, and i apreciate it. Just dont feel obliged to.
> 
> if more believers would behave like you i guess it would be so bad.


I am quite exhausted.. But I start my new job on monday







and I won't be staying up so *silly late * anymore..








I appreciate all those who have made it comfortable for me to come back in here and try to have a decent conversation about all of this.. 
And C0Rey, thank you as well!--There are so many that I know in the faith that make me look like a huge jerk, because they have so much love, joy, and surrender in their hearts.. -from spending time with Jesus, worshipping, reading, meditating on the Bible, hearing and acting on His word.. Pff, I have a LONG way to go! 
They are awesome disciples. I learn so much from them, I thank God for every one of them.. well, ya, and certainly for the brand new ones of the faith!!
I'm still a toddler Christian.. 2.5 yrs old


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

User said:


> I suppose that you have a point. But yeah you have sent me a PM before. If you think back you may remember what it was over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You got me...don't remember that. And I checked my PM's and don't have it.
[/quote]

Strange.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6453/psko0.jpg
[/quote]
That e-mail is from February...dude, that was 7 months ago. I honestly do not remember sending you any kind of threatening e-mail over a religious issue?? I may send a PM discussing something, but I have (at least to my memory) never sent you a PM slamming you for your belief.

Send me a copy of that PM if you don't mind.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

WolfFish said:


> 4.What was jesus even killed for? Was saying god was real worthy of a death sentence? If it was then what the hell were the jews worshipping?


I truly believe that the crucifixion had to happen, so coming from a Jewish background, when people so cleverly ask me, "did the Jews kill Jesus?" - and they are hoping I will place the blame on the Romans - I tell them, "Of course the Jews killed Jesus, and it could be no other way, for they were fulfilling God's promise of redemption." This startles my Christian friends who often need God more than most Jews. What I'm getting at is that The Jews had to reject their messiah, and God IMO will open the eyes of those Jews who need to find Christ. I still, despite all their misgivings about me, enjoy spending time with the Jews and participating in so many of their holidays, which seem so CHrist-like to me in their essence. I've also learned not to jump to judgment on the Jews in relation to all of this, because I still believe in my heart that salvation comes through them first.

(John 4:22 KJV) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

(Rom 9:3-5 KJV) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: {4} Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

(Rom:1-10)For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek.

This is a very partisan viewpoint, and I don't care what others think about it, since I have to go with what I feel is God's instruction for me.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

PastorJeff said:


> That e-mail is from February...dude, that was 7 months ago. I honestly do not remember sending you any kind of threatening e-mail over a religious issue?? I may send a PM discussing something, but I have (at least to my memory) never sent you a PM slamming you for your belief.
> 
> Send me a copy of that PM if you don't mind.


You're correct it wasn't a threatening message nor have you ever sent a message slamming my belief, we were discussing something - i'll send you a copy. I simply blurred the message to keep it private


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Fargo said:


> The Jews had to reject their messiah, and God IMO will open the eyes of those Jews who need to find Christ. I still, despite all their misgivings about me, enjoy spending time with the Jews and participating in so many of their holidays, which seem so CHrist-like to me in their essence. I've also learned not to jump to judgment on the Jews in relation to all of this, because I still believe in my heart that salvation comes through them first.
> (John 4:22 KJV) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
> (Rom 9:3-5 KJV) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: {4} Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
> (Rom:1-10)For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek.
> This is a very partisan viewpoint, and I don't care what others think about it, since I have to go with what I feel is God's instruction for me.


I'm with ya Fargo. All the way. Salvation came to the Jew first, then to the gentiles (me) lol -There is no reason why any Christian should believe otherwise, IMO as well. 
I am so glad that the separation of the Jews and Christians is growing narrower! I happen to love the OT festivals as well, the way they absolutely point to Christ.
Although not necissary for salvation, they are beautiful celebrations of the Messiah! Viva Israel!


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

User said:


> That e-mail is from February...dude, that was 7 months ago. I honestly do not remember sending you any kind of threatening e-mail over a religious issue?? I may send a PM discussing something, but I have (at least to my memory) never sent you a PM slamming you for your belief.
> 
> Send me a copy of that PM if you don't mind.


You're correct it wasn't a threatening message nor have you ever sent a message slamming my belief, we were discussing something - i'll send you a copy. I simply blurred the message to keep it private








[/quote]
Now I remember! Man you scared me! I thought I had slammed the crap out of you or something! Remind me to punch you in the eye for giving me a heart attack next time we get together!

Whew...I remember that conversation now.

Anyways, if someone is taking sniper shots at you...blow them off. If ever I get a letter from someone in the church I look for the signature first. And if there isn't one, I throw it away....immediately.

If they don't have the guts to sign it, then I don't have the time to read it. Period.

Thanks User! For clarification on the PM and for the heart attack!


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

mdrs said:


> wolf, i think i understand what you mean about Satan coming to earth. why doesn't he come to earth fire and brimstone style? why doesn't satan assume demonic form on earth and wreak havoc on the nine o' clock news? if so i have an answer.
> 
> satan's number one goal is to lead men astray. the BEST weapon he has is that he doesn't require people to believe in him. in fact his job is easier in that people WANT to belive they're the "highest" entity in the universe. if he allows men to wreak havoc on each other and nudges here and there he can work actively while at the same time offering no proof. if satan came to earth and made a splash, it would be a lot harder to not belive in God. you can't say that there is no God or Satan if one of them is manifesting in the world making headlines.
> 
> ...


yep makes sense but why would god allow this? doesn't it take away our free will? Or did he 'fight back' and are there angels trying to make us not sin like from constantine?


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## User (May 31, 2004)

WolfFish said:


> wolf, i think i understand what you mean about Satan coming to earth. why doesn't he come to earth fire and brimstone style? why doesn't satan assume demonic form on earth and wreak havoc on the nine o' clock news? if so i have an answer.
> 
> satan's number one goal is to lead men astray. the BEST weapon he has is that he doesn't require people to believe in him. in fact his job is easier in that people WANT to belive they're the "highest" entity in the universe. if he allows men to wreak havoc on each other and nudges here and there he can work actively while at the same time offering no proof. if satan came to earth and made a splash, it would be a lot harder to not belive in God. you can't say that there is no God or Satan if one of them is manifesting in the world making headlines.
> 
> ...


yep makes sense but *why would god allow this?* doesn't it take away our free will? Or did he 'fight back' and are there angels trying to make us not sin like from constantine?
[/quote]

"Why would God allow this ? "

That question is simply irreverent in all forms. If the biblical God does in fact exist, why question his judgment ? If the bibical God doesn't exist, it doesn't matter anyway.

The demonic form of "Lucifer" that you speak of I refer as "symbolic". However many people do not.

Also Lucifer or Satan isn't free to do what he pleases yet - according to text interpretation.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

mdrs said:


> I'm with ya Fargo. All the way. Salvation came to the Jew first, then to the gentiles (me) lol -There is no reason why any Christian should believe otherwise, IMO as well.
> I am so glad that the separation of the Jews and Christians is growing narrower! I happen to love the OT festivals as well, the way they absolutely point to Christ.
> Although not necissary for salvation, they are beautiful celebrations of the Messiah! Viva Israel!


Many passages from scripture I take seriously for now as well as back then, like the entirety of Psalm 83, and that's why I still believe the Jews occupy a preeminent place in the modern scene. And the more I see Jews and Christians coming together, the more I start taking seriously the times we are living in. An obvious no brainer for foreshadowing Christ is the Passover itself.


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## Pcutts (Sep 11, 2006)

I havn't read the whole topic, to many pages so im not sure if this was already answered.


> > 5.Can you get kicked out of heaven?
> 
> 
> According to scripture, there seems to be absolute peace and joy in heaven. No where does it say that, so I would say no.


Isn't Satan from heaven and that he was an angel? So this must mean that if your in heaven you could still get kicked out?


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Interesting comments..
> 
> *But still, I am really interested to know what law would you not tolerate, that would be a 'religious' one?*
> 
> ...


One religious law I wouldn't tolerate would be that of total worship of any one human being that is said to be a God. Now that may be read as Jesus, but that isn't my entire point. I'm talking about modern men also. Other laws I wouldn't like would be typical for a secularist.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2006)

There is a lot of preaching in this thread, and very little teaching.

Modern leaders of religion are the only ones who have the ability to heal the world. Instead, they only pour salt on the wound.

I may have the flu so Im goin to bed now.


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## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> I sometimes ask people that call themselves Atheists, if they would argue that a building has a builder.


Perhaps you didn't understand the full notion of my initial post. When I say that you assumed that there is one God, the contrary is not that there isn't one. While possible, there remains the other side of the coin as well; what happens when your building requires more than one person to build it?



DiPpY said:


> Now, take a close examination of the human eye. More complex than any super computer. It would take hours for a computer to do what the human eye can do in 2 seconds. --Also has been around quite some time before any computer was invented


So?



DiPpY said:


> Then we can look at how much knowledge anyone really knows for sure. A certified genious couldn't even know any more than 1% of complete knowledge there is to know. You can have great knowledge in some subjects, but there are many other things you may know absolutely nothing about.


While Knowledge is a totally seperate issue, your above statement is fine.



DiPpY said:


> So, we can say that no one knows everything. So, a statement like 'There is no God' can not be stated with credibility, simply because the person who stated that has to have complete, and total knowledge of all things. And nobody does.


This is so horrendously flawed seeing as the opposite can be said to disprove your own belief... You're right about one thing; we know absolutely nothing compared to what's out there.



DiPpY said:


> So, the person who calls himself a true Atheist, is actually an agnostic at very best, because the statement 'God does not exist' can not be made by any man in any honesty whatsoever.


If we know nothing, how can you even classify someone as an Atheist or an Agnostic? Just as the statement "God does not exist" cannot truly be made, neither can "God does exist..."



> So if we logically look at a tree, or a flower, or the human eye, you have to understand that there almost has to be a Designer, how perfectly things work together.. in fact, it is almost completely illogical to 'rule out' that there is/was a Designer.


Flawed. Horribly, HORRIBLY flawed reasoning...



> So if there was a Designer, and He did communicate to us through the Bible, we should recognize that we all have violated His commands completely.
> We have all lied, most have taken something of any value that wasn't ours, we all have used God's name in vain, we have all (according to Jesus) had lustful thoughts about someone that wasn't ours in marriage.


What happens if your supposed "Designer" wanted to communicate through the Torran? Through a cereal box?



> If we are guilty of any of these things, and the Bible is this Designers word to us, we would all rightfully go to hell..
> But that Designer also gave us His son, that paid the price for all our wrongs, and the Designer said that if we accept His Son's sacrifice to forgive all of our disobediance, and repent from doing things our way, we can be with Him in complete joy and peace for all eternity.
> 
> He even said that He would _manifest Himself _ to anyone who forsakes his own way, and comes near to Him.
> ...


In order to justify anything in the above quotations, you need to justify the existence and relevance of Christianity; which in itself is logically impossible. Since true Knowledge in itself, is no where near the comprehension of man, there is no immediate way to justify the existence of a Designer or Designers or something else. Since you cannot do this, all forms of Organized Religion are therefore faith based and, in my opinion, an absolute folly.

Pac


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> There is a lot of preaching in this thread, and very little teaching.
> 
> *Modern leaders of religion are the only ones who have the ability to heal the world*. Instead, they only pour salt on the wound.
> 
> I may have the flu so Im goin to bed now.


Based on what ?


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> I may have the flu so Im goin to bed now.


Get a good night rest and I hope you'll better in the morning.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> If we are guilty of any of these things, and the Bible is this Designers word to us, we would all rightfully go to hell..
> But that Designer also gave us His son, that paid the price for all our wrongs, and the Designer said that if we accept His Son's sacrifice to forgive all of our disobediance, and repent from doing things our way, we can be with Him in complete joy and peace for all eternity.
> He even said that He would _manifest Himself _ to anyone who forsakes his own way, and comes near to Him.
> How can anyone reject this offer? He will even _manifest Himself to anyone who gives Him a real shot.._ Incredible, simply amazing.. He did it for me, He can do it for you.


In order to justify anything in the above quotations, you need to justify the existence and relevance of Christianity; which in itself is logically impossible. Since true Knowledge in itself, is no where near the comprehension of man, there is no immediate way to justify the existence of a Designer or Designers or something else. Since you cannot do this, all forms of Organized Religion are therefore faith based and, in my opinion, an absolute folly.
Pac
[/quote]

If you're looking for rational justification for the Christian path, forget it. True believers want to live it, not break it down according to Reason. Their faith is their justification. You cannot achieve middle ground with them, since their faith to you is folly. Two totally different perspectives on things.



> 24 They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus,
> 25 whom God set forth as an expiation, *through faith, * by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed,
> 26 through the forbearance of God--to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and *justify the one who has faith in Jesus. *--Romans 3:24-26





> For you have been saved by (God's) grace through faith (in Christ);
> and this did not come from you - it is God's gift.
> Nor did it come from what you have done, lest anyone should boast.
> Ephesians 2:8-9





> John 3:18: "He who *believes in Him * is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."


It's obviously all about faith, so in this sense we agree.


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## WolfFish (Jun 30, 2004)

how can you not see how ridiculously insane it is to mould your life around a faith from a book that tells you to believe it BECAUSE of faith...its just infathomable to me and i hope all intelligent people. If i wrote a book saying god is not real because of *insert faith* and to believe in my book because of faith then would people follow that too???


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Oheye8one2 said:


> You're taking the verse out of context. Finish up the verse!
> John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
> 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
> 
> Jesus was telling Nicodemus about Heaven. No man hath ascended up to Heaven, and came down to tell what Heaven is like, except for the Son of man.


 On the contrary, Jesus wasn't describing heaven- he was speaking on spiritual matters that were to Nicky uncomprehensible (the spiritual matters being "the heavenly things") I did in fact quote the entire verse- You on the other hand added to the verse by including "and" changing the meaning of what Jesus was saying-

all i was doing was pointing out a fact that Jesus happened to make in the course of this conversation- that in his day (jesus) that NO one had ever acsended into heaven- nobody, Zilch, nadda, aint ever happened-

again as i mentioned before, most "christians" today neglect history in establishing their beleif systems, Jews of jesus day beleived that when anyone died they went to hell- aka Sheol-

according to the new strongs bible dictionary of bible words sheol is described as such (in part) "sheol is the abode of the dead, a place of degradation,the locality or condition of those who have died or been destroyed.... It is not understood to be a place of punishment, but simply the ultimete resting placeof ALL MANKIND (Gen 37:35 {grave used in this instance not word hell in King Jim bible}

this is collabrated on by the rest of the bible in places like Ecclesiastes 9:5,6- "for the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more reward: for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hated and their envy is now perished.... blah blah blah..

this also explains why David according to the bible never went to heaven- Acts 2:34 " No David was not speaking of himself in these words of his i have quoted, for he never ascended into the skies. Moreover, he firther stated, God spoke to my lord, the Messiah, and said to him.. Blah blah blah"- Living Bible (blah blah blah mine, not actauly to be found in the bible LOL)

same verse King Jim Bible- "For david is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand"

to sum up- Jesus in talking to Nicky made a comment that wooda been common knowledge to Nicky- that no one has of course ever came down from heaven( not even good ol king Dave)- why was this the case?- cuz as both of them beleived that when a peep bite the dust they went to hell (aka the grave) and in that state were totaly unaware of anything and didnt know a damned thing..

:rasp:
[/quote]
Sheol (Hebrew) - It is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead. It is not the grave or sepulcher, nor is it the eternal location of the souls of the dead. It is the same as the Greek word "Hades", which we will look at in a moment. Prior to Jesus Christ's resurrection, both the souls of the evil and the righteous went there after death.It is the same as the Greek word "Hades", which we will look at in a moment. Prior to Jesus Christ's resurrection, both the souls of the evil and the righteous went there after death. 
Sheol (or Hades) has two separate halves. One side was and is reserved for the torment of the evil, while the other side, called "Abraham's Bosom" in Luke 16:22, was for the comfort of the righteous. There is and impassable canyon, or gulf, between the two halves. When Christ was resurrected, he led the righteous out of Sheol to Heaven.
Ex: Luke 16:

19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

At the final judgement...

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death (permenent).

No one has ascended to Heaven?

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into *Heaven* .

Jesus was taking about ascended to Heaven and came back down.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

WolfFish said:


> how can you not see how ridiculously insane it is to mould your life around a faith from a book that tells you to believe it BECAUSE of faith...its just infathomable to me and i hope all intelligent people. If i wrote a book saying god is not real because of *insert faith* and to believe in my book because of faith then would people follow that too???


If someone does mold their entire life around a book of faith its personal choice. Long as it doesn't interfere with my life I'm okay with it. But its nearly impossible for people and their faith not to interfere, it will enter my life in some way. And mainly because I'm in the minority.


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## PacmanXSA (Nov 15, 2004)

Fargo said:


> If you're looking for rational justification for the Christian path, forget it. True believers want to live it, not break it down according to Reason. Their faith is their justification. You cannot achieve middle ground with them, since their faith to you is folly. Two totally different perspectives on things.


It obviously comes down to the rational justification of faith. Since there is no logical way to do this, why do it in the first place. I guess this is just where I'm personally stuck. I cannot begin to imagine the thought processes required in order to justify something to myself that cannot be explained vis-a-vis rational thought.

As far as my accusation of flawed reasoning that was previously mentioned, I believe that my post read in its entirety explains why I feel that his reasoning is flawed. The above blurb is further justifcation, in my opinion.

Pac


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Fargo said:


> If you're looking for rational justification for the Christian path, forget it. True believers want to live it, not break it down according to Reason. Their faith is their justification. You cannot achieve middle ground with them, since their faith to you is folly. Two totally different perspectives on things.


This statement is headed into philosophical skepticism and epistemology both are fun to discuss but can get nasty.

Faith usually is linked with supernatural power and the burden of proof that trails behind it. Justification is action to be reasonable, and if true believers want to live it and not break down reason than they have no justification.

Damn massive typeos - edited


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2006)

The reason people need faith in thier life is because it makes us better people. Of course there are bad aspects, but for someone to have that kind of rock in thier life..that reason to be alive and to live...well I see that as reason for faith, and thus is justification enough.

I cant sleep. FN flu.

Hey guys!


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> The reason people need faith in thier life is because it makes us better people. Of course there are bad aspects, but for someone to have that kind of rock in thier life..that reason to be alive and to live...well I see that as reason for faith, and thus is justification enough.
> 
> I cant sleep. FN flu.
> 
> Hey guys!


Unreasonable faith can hold hands with ego, both aren't necessary for people to live. Bin Laden may have faith that he's the savior of muslim nations in the end times, but that is hooked onto his ego as well.

I need no reason to live, while life maybe meaningless I need no justifaction to enjoy life.

Buy some nyquil dude.


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## Avatar~God (Oct 21, 2004)

I will quote my boss, “What’s the best way to control people? By telling them if they don’t do as you want they will suffer in this place called hell for eternity."


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2006)

User said:


> I will quote my boss, "What's the best way to control people? By telling them if they don't do as you want they will suffer in this place called hell for eternity."


Fortunately, not everyone who is a spiritual person believes this.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> I will quote my boss, "What's the best way to control people? By telling them if they don't do as you want they will suffer in this place called hell for eternity."


Fortunately, not everyone who is a spiritual person believes this.
[/quote]

I addressed what is unreasonable in post #348.

Basically if there is no reason for life there is no justification to provide to enjoy or live it. My reason to continue my life can be taken from me (personal answer which I wouldn't give, unless you want to know) but my reason for being a good person cannot - because its not attached to anything that can be disproven or politicized its just personal choice. And free personal choice, without dread of afterlife punishment.

hypothetical question;

One day, God appears to every person on earth in all His glory. He tells us that He is bored with humanity, and that He is moving on to new things. All the rules and commandments that God and Jesus put into place are now revoked. Our universe is allowed to keep running on its own, but it is now completely without a God, completely without any divine say on what is right and wrong. When you die, there will be noone to judge your deeds, you simply cease to exist.

So now what? Do you stop trying to do what you feel is right? Do you stop trying to improve yourself? Do you stop loving and caring about your friends and family?

To someone who doesnt believe in God, these are usually the things that are important to them. These are the things that make life worth living and give our lives meaning.

Again edited for typeos - I need sleep maybe ?


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2006)

What if God isnt an all knowing thing?

I hope you recognize that I am not talking about living for a God. I live for myself. That is part of why I have so much faith.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> What if God isnt an all knowing thing?
> 
> I hope you recognize that I am not talking about living for a God. I live for myself. That is part of why I have so much faith.


So you're basically a humanist. Okay. I understand everything that you have ever posted now.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2006)

THANK YOU! Ive never found a term for what I beleive, thats the closest Ive ever come.

Humanism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

Love ya User.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

I would fall under humanism too - Humanistic Judaism. 
I also like Christian Humanism which is basically what my girlfriend follows.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

PacmanXSA said:


> how can you not see how ridiculously insane it is to mould your life around a faith from a book that tells you to believe it BECAUSE of faith...its just infathomable to me and i hope all intelligent people. If i wrote a book saying god is not real because of *insert faith* and to believe in my book because of faith then would people follow that too???


Bro, like I said in my last reply, there are prophecys that He will manifest Himself to you if you come to Him with a step of faith.. That is what happened in my life, and I did not know the scripture on that at all before it happened. I believe Jesus Christ is AWESOME!

I know not many believe me on that.. but hey, it isn't my job to make anyone believe


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> 2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into *Heaven* .


 Well that certainly is a nice try- and a well used text to support the theory of peeps before Christ going to heaven being brought there as well... 2 thnigy's must be considered regarding that verse that are often completely overlooked by anyone who wishes to prove the point ur pushing..

(1) the hebrew word used here for heaven- does it specifically apply only to the abiding place of God and his spirit crew? OR, can or does the specific hebrew word used have another meaning... (go find out) now why is that important... well here's some history for ya'z

while dating varies on the yrs that the judean and isrealite kings ruled lets take a looky at a bit of history between the Judean and the Isrealite king doods- as u might already be aware, often some isrealite & Judean kings had the same name- even when their rulerships may have been at the same time, so i will try to minimize confusion..

Judean Kings- Asa (40 yrs as king), Jehosaphat (25 yrs), Jehoram (8 yrs- but 2 as co ruler with Pops), Ahaziah (1 yr)

Isrealite Kings- Ahaziah (ruled 3 years), Jehoram (12 yrs )
now why is all that junk important???

glad u asked.. again, just to minmimize confusion lets start a timeline beginning with the first year that Jehosapaht ruled as King, again him having a 25 yr reign lets call that year number 1, yr number 25 being when he croaked.. so lets begin a timeline..

yr 1- Jehosapaht becomes King Of Judah (2 chronicles 20:31)

yr 17- Ahaziah becomes King of Isreal- rules 2 partial yrs (1 kings 22:51)

yr 18- Ahaziah king of Isreal dies- Johram finnishes his reign out- (1 kings 22:50) (an accession year would have been included in this time frame of 2 yrs)

*** during this period of time Elijah is now taking into the heavens 2 kings 2:1-11***

yr 18- Jehoram officially becomes King or Isreal (regnal reign) and he rules for 12 years (2 kings 3:1)

yr 23- Jehosaphat allows his son to share in ruling with him (Jehoram of Judah) (2 kings 1:17 & 2 kings 8:16)

yr 25- Jehosaphat croaks, Jehoram (of judah) begins to serve as King of Judah officially (2 chronicles 21:1,5) and serves for 8 yrs altogether as King of Judah

yr 31- King Jehoram of Judah croaks after serving altogether 8 yrs as king at the ripe old age of 40, after a 2 yr sickness.... (2 chronicles 21:18-20)
**********************************************************
Now right now i know what yer thinking, what does all this have to do with the price of milk in tibet-& with Elijah having been in heaven all that time...

Well, sir, to answer both your questions, one, it has nothing to do with the price of milk in Tibet- i've got no idea why u were wondering that but the second question, that i can 'esplain to ya...

Ol Jehoram died after being sick for two years right?? yeah he did, i just pointed at 2 chronicles says so- go looky it up.. well sir, funny thing about that sickness he got it for getting God all ticked off at him, so right before he up and smited ol Jehoram, he had one of his prophets send him a letter saying this was gona happen and why- which prophet? well go looky at 2 chronicles 21:11

Yes sir, Ol Elijah 2 yrs before Jehoram dies is still serving as a prophet- now though apparently serving the land of Judah, whereas in the past his services were directed towards Isreal. Now in out little timeline, this wooda put Elijah serving up his message of Doom to Jehoram in the year 29(ish)

now if u looky back- it was around the 18 yr mark on the timeline that he got taken into the heavens- again, the bible says no man before christ has ascended into the heavens (johnny 3:13) the ASSUMPION made that Elijah was taken into the spiritual heavens, is a misleading one and one showing an although a well meaning, still an inept knowledge of the scriptures.


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## mike123 (Jul 17, 2006)

too much religious debate









im not even gonna bother to read this thread anymore.


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Oheye8one2 said:


> (1) the hebrew word used here for heaven- does it specifically apply only to the abiding place of God and his spirit crew? OR, can or does the specific hebrew word used have another meaning... (go find out) now why is that important... well here's some history for ya'z


Heaven is the dwelling place of celestial bodies, the same word used in Genesis 1 and Genesis Gen:24:7: "The LORD God of *heaven*" and thoughout the Bible. It's the same word in 2Kgs:2:1: And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into *heaven* by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

2Kgs:2:11: And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into *heaven*.

According to Strong's Concordance...Heaven=the dual perch. alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the *celestial bodies revolve*.


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