# Who says 3 ps are better than 2?



## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Alright, anyone who's ever posted on the site has no doubt already seen the "2 ps will kill each other, get a 3rd" rule mentioned about a million times, but I'm starting to wonder... according to who exactly? As far as I can tell, there are newer members being told "2 will not work get 3" becoming older members who in turn tell new members the same thing, but where did this start? What's the logic for this? Who's the source?

Think about it really, when was the last time you ever saw another piranha break up a fight between another two? I haven't and believe me, my piranhas have fought to the point the whole tank was almost finless (they get pissy about territory if I try and move anything around, any aspect of the tank I change results in 2 weeks of solid fighting). In fact, how many times have you seen a piranha that was eaten right down to it's head and there was nothing else left of the body but a spine sticking out, you think ONE OTHER FISH did that to the piranha while the others tried to break it up?

Logically it makes no sense to me, even check pygomans 8.5 inch reds fighting in the video gallery. The video goes on for a few minutes and the fight doesn't seem to be stopping when the camera stops rolling, did you even see once any of the other fish get involved in any kind of way?

Then you look at all the people having only a pair of piranhas in their tanks, to me it doesn't seem that they have any higher incidences of fish eating each other, in fact I haven't seen it yet. Hell, I don't think one piranha can even bite off enough from another p to kill it unless it gets a chunk of something vital or is much larger than the fish it is attacking.

So what gives?


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## zygapophysis (Jul 16, 2004)

well htink of it this way, 2 are just 2 and make up thier own teritorys, when you get 3 they start a schoal and kinda make/turn into one, as a group, and then they form a teritory as a group and they ant invade thier own teritory as when theres only two the fights start when they invade each others teritory--IMO

but im glad someone brought this up, i might not be right, just how i tihkn of it


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

that might be true, I have to admit that I'm basing this on my experience of owning 4 piranhas in a tank, it would be nice to have someone with 2 comment to say if they group together or not


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## outlook8 (Jun 30, 2003)

i bought 3 2-3" super reds and put them in a 29 gallon...couple days later, one was eaten...now, for the past year or so i've had only 2 and they are around 6" and seem to be doing fine...only the occasionaly scuff/fin nip, but nothing major...

chris


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Do they hang out together or do they keep to opposite ends of the tank?


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## outlook8 (Jun 30, 2003)

little of both...they seem to both have their "spot", but they don't just sit there all day...i see them hangin' side by side a lot too...one of them is the dominant one, but he didn't used to be...now he always gets first pick of the food and the other one doesn't usually eat until the more dominant one is finished...


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

well i was one of the newbies that everyone told 3 is better than 2 so thats were i got my info from

i just regergitate what was told to me, but to me it really makes sense to me cause most people

dont have a big enough tank if their only gonna keep two and the fish are just gonna fight to the death

seein how ranas dont really shoal, its more of a tolerance of each other *i think franks hits on the subject here*
.

and with three it will kinda take the focuse off just one fish, you know what im sayin

im kinda sleepy and my word may be jumbled :laugh:


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## jiggy (Jun 27, 2004)

my friend has raised 2 rbp since they were 1 inch until 8 inches.. n they were fine


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

jiggy said:


> my friend has raised 2 rbp since they were 1 inch until 8 inches.. n they were fine


 what size tank were they in ?? do you know??


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Freez don't worry, I regurgitated the rule too until one day I kind of thought "hey wait a minute". Now I'm not sure wether I trust it or not, hence why I wanted to open a discussion









I agree about the tank size, however that's not a function of 2 reds being a problem, that's a small ass tank being a problem. I think there's some small tanks that could house 2 piranhas nicely


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

elTwitcho said:


> I agree about the tank size, however that's not a function of 2 reds being a problem, that's a small ass tank being a problem. I think there's some small tanks that could house 2 piranhas nicely


 i would think youd be more successful with two ranas in a bigger tank to setup their own

territory rather than a small tank wered they fight for it.

small tank might work if theres alot of plants and drift wood but then you take up a lot of tank space too


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## RhomZilla (Feb 12, 2003)

First off, the rule with 3 better than 2 was a simple acknowledgement as a way to help ease tension with a pair of Ps in a tank. Just like most things in life, testing anothers person's ability by trying to out do the other to establish his level with dominance, does happen. In this case, aggressions within a pair tend to become more severe vs. a group where the level of dominance is usually more stable. Simply this rule doesnt apply to everyone's tank, but knowing that each shoal (and individual Ps) do have their own personalities, not all success are with a pair can happen. The 3rd P isn't there to regulate or "break up fights" between a pair, but simply form a better bonding to become a shoal and lessen aggression.

Much props for bringing this subject up. Its the ways of a true hobbyists who tries to find ways to defy rules and stretch out more questionable statements with his hobby.


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## rbp guy (Apr 19, 2004)

If you ever start to think that if two piranhas are nice, three would be better, try telling yourself that two may be nice, but three could be disastrous. This is likely to be the truth of the matter with piranhas unless you are prepared to invest in a much larger tank.

In smaller tanks (anything smaller than a 55 gallon), it's a good idea to limit the population to just two. A buddy of mine has raised his two piranhas from 2" to 6" in a 29 gallon. I keep urging him to get something bigger, but he's happy with his setup and his piranhas seem to be healthy.


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## ReDraGon-> (May 24, 2004)

Dam man thats a good question u raised here on this thread twitcho

i dont got 2 Ps so i wouldnt know


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

I always thought it was so the domant fish will spread out its aggresion on the other 2 fish, that way its not alway the same fish getting its ass kicked


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## Stormland (Jul 9, 2004)

I have had 2 reds in a tank for about 3 years now. I started out with 6 of the same size in the tank but the two that I have kind of took care of them in a pretty short amount of time, probably two weeks after I got them all. I had plenty of cover in the tank so it wasn't a bare tank by any means, and it was a large tank so space wasn't the issue. The two that are alone now get along great, sit next to each other in the tank, never chase each other and also let each other take turns eating or eat without fighting if feeding larger prey were they don't need to take turns. They are both not push overs by any means either. Not skittish when I feed them or walk into the room, they acually swim around the tank alot and seem to get very excited when it's feeding time. Not sure if this is normal behavior for Reds or not but that is how they seem to like it. For them, the saying "two is company, three is a crowd" seems to be the motto they live by.


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## carisma02uk (Aug 1, 2004)

i konw waht yo mean mate, an eqaintence of mine has three reds in a 2.5'x1'x15'' tank and has now put in2 cons big ones he already has a couli loach serradontis? upside down catfish and a bristel nose in therew and all they do is fight, two have pared off and the other is left fighting them and all the other fish, i have told him the tank is to small and the cons area bad ideas but he knows best and thats what counts to him, 2 or 4+ is always a good measure i get the feeling i will have pros with my 5 thats why im adding a carbie. i hope it works


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## carisma02uk (Aug 1, 2004)

Stormland said:


> For them, the saying "two is company, three is a crowd" seems to be the motto they live by.


 right on brotha.


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## Daywalker (Aug 15, 2004)

before i found this site i had a single 5" red in a 30gal for time & thought it would b nice to get a companion so i got a 4' red, however they didnt get on and after 3 days i came home one day to find my new red half eaten.








Obviousley this may have been down tank size & prehaps my own fault









After finding this site







& reading alot of the info/posts etc & decided to get a bigger tank and tryto add another 2 5" reds as companions...........

well my orig red is now 6" & theyve now been in the tank together for a week & the tank is completely different.!








My first red would just site & chill in one spot for most of the time but now they are all constantly on the move spending time shoaling & on their own,of course they do have the odd nip at each other but they do seem happier & are a pleasure to watch.......









I have done the same as other members here ie regurgatate the info ive read to other members etc but from my own limited experiance it seems quite right that 2 is a crowd & 3 is company is the piranha world..........









Its not the best but please see my picture attached


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## lbj23 (Jun 20, 2004)

i had 5 reb bellys in a 10gallon to srt out wit, but dey were relle small at da time, but 3 of them got killed, so im down to 2. i moved those 2 into a 55gallon about 5 months ago n dey seem to be doin fine. they fight alot i mean constantly wen it comes to feedin time, 1 wont let the other eat until its done, but at the same time they also get along wit each other too. sometimes they roll together and most of da time dey fight, but there's no fin nippin from what i see. there about da same size and until recently the dominate trait switched from ont ot the other. its weird its like they take turns takin control. its all good though, there doin fine!


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## TheSaint (Apr 15, 2004)

I've got 2 reds (5'') and initially they were hangin in a 33 gallon but now there in a 100 gallon.

They do fight now and then but they are also inseperable and dont shy away from each other for very long. They really enjoy swimming around together although one is definately more dominant than the other. The dominant one is very dark and has a larger and brighter anal fin when compared to his pal. He also gets first go on the food!

Like I said fighting does occur but its not like a fight to the death! They both give as good as they get.

I wonder how many of the people who say ''dont keep 2 piranhas'' have actually tried it out


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## TheSaint (Apr 15, 2004)

lbj23 said:


> i had 5 reb bellys in a 10gallon to srt out wit, but dey were relle small at da time, but 3 of them got killed, so im down to 2. i moved those 2 into a 55gallon about 5 months ago n dey seem to be doin fine. they fight alot i mean constantly wen it comes to feedin time, 1 wont let the other eat until its done, but at the same time they also get along wit each other too. sometimes they roll together and most of da time dey fight, but there's no fin nippin from what i see. there about da same size and until recently the dominate trait switched from ont ot the other. its weird its like they take turns takin control. its all good though, there doin fine!










Does it take a lot of concentration to write like that?


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## joefromcanada (Apr 16, 2004)

i had two 5" terns together in a 29 gallon for bout 2 months, then they were inthe 55 gallon for another month and i didnt even have a fin nip. they were always hangin out and sh*t, always side by side., then as soon as i added 1 redbelly, they ate him. now ihave one a fair size bigger than there terns and he is doing good with him


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

The reason I recommend 3 is the same reason Nitro pointed out. When you have a very dominant fish, 2 or more targets for his aggression are better than one. Yes I have had 2 reds together, and also various pairs of serrasalmus kept together, and the fighting was worse in those tanks. Maybe not more often, but there was more damage done to the less dominant fish than in a tank with more fish.
If you watch how your fish set up territories and defend them you will notice that in a 2 fish tank the territories are much larger and in some cases, one fish will claim the entire tank. When a chase gets started due to territory, it can be a very drawn out thing, lasting a long time and taking up a lot of space. The ending of this chase varies greatly but can in some cases end in a pretty nasty fight. In tanks with 3 or more fish, the territories are smaller and when a fish is chased out the dominant fish's territory the chase is usually pretty short, ending more when the fish is out of the area. In tanks with 2 fish I have had to bang on the glass or stick a net in just to break up the chase. Although this will happen in a tank with a lot of fish, for me it was not near as often.

I dont think there are many rules to keeping piranhas that apply to every fish and every tank....but there are guidelines based on various experiences that are given for the beginning fish keeper so his first experience with piranhas does not end in disaster.


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## jiggy (Jun 27, 2004)

mr.freez said:


> jiggy said:
> 
> 
> > my friend has raised 2 rbp since they were 1 inch until 8 inches.. n they were fine
> ...


 he started them in a 20g.. n then moved them to 100g


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## 351winsor (Aug 3, 2004)

I have 2 reds and they are chill with each other.I tried adding 1 and they just ate it.I have had them for 4 months now and one is 4.5" and the other is 4".


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## BKtomodachi (Jul 28, 2004)

Nitro's got it right!

Just like when breeing harem cichlids, more females so the males agression is spread out causing less agressioon impact per fish.


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## Furgwa (Sep 23, 2003)

I was un-aware about "the two rule" when i bought my first pair. I had mine in a about a 43 gallon (home-made tank) for over a year before i sold them, and as far as i know they are still doing well. However, i can relate exactly to what outlook8 says. They both did have their spots in the tank, but their were never really any fights. So if somebody asked me if two were okay, I'm not sure i would know what to tell them from my experiences.

Ya'll can check out my P's in the featured videos "Furgwa's boys with feeders"


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## Novato (Jan 25, 2004)

nitrofish said:


> I always thought it was so the domant fish will spread out its aggresion on the other 2 fish, that way its not alway the same fish getting its ass kicked


 Me too.


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

I personally don't find that my dominant fish spreads his aggression around on anyone, in fact he's only aggressive against whichever fish tries to take his spot in the tank. The spreading aggression explanation makes sense logically but it's not something I've seen much of in my tank, in fact most of the fighting is between Goober (biggest, dominant fish) and Killer (smallest, mean as hell fish that wants to be dominant). The presence of my other piranhas doesn't seem to affect this much.

Do you guys find your dominant fish picks fights with everyone?


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## Stormland (Jul 9, 2004)

elTwitcho said:


> Do you guys find your dominant fish picks fights with everyone?


Picks fights for no reason? No, the only time I see my dominate fish in my shoal of 8 Cariba attack one of the other Cariba is when someone tries to enter his area. Other than that he leaves everyone alone. He is able to go into any other Piranha spot in the tank with no problems, but when someone makes a b-line for his area even if he isn't in it, watch out because hell is about to ensue. During feeding time he is always first to hit but never goes after any other Piranha while eating. Probably because he knows that I always give them enough so that they all get to eat so he doesn't feel threatened by not getting enough food.


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## BKtomodachi (Jul 28, 2004)

I suppose with a case like that the problem is with territory... with un-territorial agression more fish to spread the load works, but if another fish invades the dominants territory, thats his fault, he should just learn!


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## Mafioso (Aug 4, 2004)

so whats the verdict 2 or 3 alright


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## khuzhong (Apr 11, 2003)

Mafioso said:


> so whats the verdict 2 or 3 alright


 9 or more fish


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm going to personally recommend 2 as MY OPINION. I haven't honestly seen much random aggression that would be "spread out" to other fish. All the aggression I've seen has been pecking order or territory related and another fish in the mix isn't going to do anything to ease tensions between two fish fighting for top dog spot in the tank. This is my opinion of course, but based on my own observations and the number of people having two fish live together successfully that's the advice I'm giving from here on out.


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## Fossil32 (Jul 13, 2003)

I too was told to make sure i got 3. Sadly one died in transit and since i didnt want to pay another $40 in shipping i settled with 2. I got them at dime size and theyver now grown to be about 5 inches in the last 7 months. Aside from a few fin nips etc, there has been no problem. they both hang out all day together, hunt together, sleep next to each other.... theyre best friends.

Maybe im lucky because theyve always had each other basically since they were born. Even though this is MY experience, i would still reccomend 3 to everybody. The whole thing is that one fish will eventually become the leader of the tank, and pick on the others. My tank has its leader, the one whos always the first to eat or lead the hunt. but he does pick on the other guy, and the other guy sometimes picks on him. If you have 3 then there will be 2 for the dominant to pick on, spreading out some aggression. Ps are just like people. The strong pick on the weak. maybe i just got 2 strong ones, but i would always reccomend at least 3 IMO.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Anyone who has been in this hobby for any length of time will realize there is a certain randomness to anything you attempt to do. If 2 works for you....great. If you have a very aggressive fish, 2 is probably not a good number. There is no hard rule to anything and the sooner people realize this the better they will be able to addapt to the ever changing situations that come up in the hobby of keeping piranhas.


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## pinchy (Jun 3, 2004)

nitrofish said:


> I always thought it was so the domant fish will spread out its aggresion on the other 2 fish, that way its not alway the same fish getting its ass kicked


 thats what i thought too


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