# whats the biggest red b piranha?



## red devils red (Mar 12, 2003)

just wondering if anyone has heard any wild fish stories about a giant red bellied piranha?


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

Although very rare, hobbyist have kept RBP of 12 inches in the home aquarium. In a larger public aqurium they might have the potential to reach 13 inches.


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## MPower (Jan 29, 2003)

Check Franks Site
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/piranha038/pi...easurement.html


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## red devils red (Mar 12, 2003)

a 12 inch red would be nice,cant wait till mine get up there


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

well they most likely will never see that size. 12 inch RBPs are almost myths in the home aqurium and are to large to be a worthwhile import at that size. I have seen pictures of one but no one would even believe it till after the pictures, and yes that piranha was a freak, close to 13 years old.


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## red devils red (Mar 12, 2003)

WHATS THAT IN HUMAN YEARS? 13 I MEAN? OR IS THE SAME RATIO?


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

13 human years piranhas can live 20-25 years


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

Piranhas can live a very long time as long as you care for them appropriately. On Frank's site I saw a listing for a piranha in 1971 that died only a few years ago.


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## WebHostExpert (Jan 16, 2003)

The largest Red belly I ever had was 12"s It took 3 years for him to get that size. And no I don't have any pictures.
MAD


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## rosecityrhom (Feb 3, 2003)

:rasp:


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## RhomZilla (Feb 12, 2003)

Also, if you cant wait for a 12" RB.. you can always buy a 12" Rhom!!! 12" Rhoms are easy to come by.. 12" RBs are rare.. but imagine a shoal of 12" RBs..

WHOO HOO!!!!


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## WebHostExpert (Jan 16, 2003)

thats what I'm waiting for, just amagine a shoal of 10-15 12" rbp man thated be sweet.
MAD


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## DiXoN (Jan 31, 2003)

to get a red to that size is probably a measure of good luck as well as good management .the largest reds i have had (measured out of the tank) were 8'' and 7 1/2'' and took 1 1/2 years to get that big this was also nose to end of tail so really in scientific size about 7'' and 6 1/2 '' i have heard of 12'' reds (no proof) and seen 1 pic of a red which full length was 11''-12'' and i think it was on pfish neo may prove me wrong on that but it was quite a while ago 
dixon


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Frank told me 14" is the max I believe, but I would like to see proof of it, I think 12" is a more reasonable number


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Ternetzi is found in the far south of South America as far as Argentina. Ternetzi's max size is of question, but it is believed to be around 18 inches. Ternetzi is currently considered by science to be the same species as Nattereri.


Still waiting for your proof of this statement from your web site.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> Frank told me 14" is the max I believe, but I would like to see proof of it, I think 12" is a more reasonable number


 I trust Franks decades of experience and desire to give us accurate information.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

key word is believed, Franks proof he gave me is Dr.Fink says so, I want a pic with a ruler, I have asked for this for a long time now, and havent seen anything


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Posted on Mar 19 2003, 04:09 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> QUOTE
> Ternetzi is found in the far south of South America as far as Argentina. Ternetzi's max size is of question, but it is believed to be around 18 inches. Ternetzi is currently considered by science to be the same species as Nattereri.
> ...


 So which is it Nate? If they are growing at 18 inches and science says they are the same species then YOU ARE SAYING they are grow to 18 inches, or in your words _it is believed_ by whom?


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> key word is believed, Franks proof he have me is Dr.Fink says so, I want a pic with a ruler, I have asked for this for a long time now, and havent seen anything


 Lol, and now the word of a respected scientist isn't good enough.









I have seen pictures of 11"-12" nattereri. I have never seen one larger than that, nor have I seen a ternetzi larger than any nattereri (contrary to some "reports").


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

my stance on Ternetzi is that they have evolved into a different fish from Nattereri, and nobodys word is good enough without evidence

I have seen Yellow Natts (Ternetzi) that were well over 14" several times


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

> my stance on Ternetzi is that they have evolved into a different fish from Nattereri, and nobodys word is good enough without evidence
> 
> I have seen Yellow Natts (Ternetzi) that were well over 14" several times
> 
> This post has been edited by Sir Nathan XXI on Mar 19 2003, 11:58 AM


Least of all yours. So where are *your* pictures with a ruler, hmm?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

In the words of Nate himself, I have never seen a yellow natt next to a ruler that size and I am still waiting.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

its not my fish to measure

You ask Knifeman or Shawn P77, I am not here to dispute their fish, I just wanted to see physical proof of a 14" Red Nattereri, surely DrFink or the like would have evidence of it, thats all I am after, not another debate, if Frank doesnt think they have physical evidence just say so and this will be over


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

grosse gurke said:


> In the words of Nate himself, I have never seen a yellow natt next to a ruler that size and I am still waiting.


 when did I say that


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> its not my fish to measure
> 
> You ask Knifeman or Shawn P77, I am not here to dispute their fish, I just wanted to see physical proof of a 14" Red Nattereri, surely DrFink or the like would have evidence of it, thats all I am after, not another debate, if Frank doesnt think they have physical evidence just say so and this will be over


 People like Fink do not say things like that without having knowledge of what they are talking about, unlike other people here I could mention. Quite presumptuous of you to demand proof to satisfy your personal agenda against these people.

Since they aren't yours to measure or debate then you might want to consider not bringing them up constantly since you admitedly cannot confirm their actual size.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I dont care about their fish, I just want to see physical proof of a 14" Nattereri, at the very least Frank can provide documentation of it, but really a picture would surely be available somewhere if Natts at 14" truely exist


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Do you notice everyone, when Nate is back into a corner to tell the truth about what HE WRITES ABOUT no proof is needed just his word.

For example as just posted by Neoplasia:



> my stance on Ternetzi is that they have evolved into a different fish from Nattereri, and nobodys word is good enough without evidence
> 
> I have seen Yellow Natts (Ternetzi) that were well over 14" several times
> 
> This post has been edited by Sir Nathan XXI on Mar 19 2003, 11:58 AM


You have seen them several times? yet you demand proof from me. I think since you are the major author of many of these nonsense posts and most certainly the advocate of much of the baloney out on the internet about piranas, you need to finally show us all your information and proof of your statements.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

let me repeat myself since you dont understand, I am looking for proof of 14" Nattereri, not of my friends fish, what dont you understand?

And what is nonsense about my posts?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> grosse gurke said:
> 
> 
> > In the words of Nate himself, I have never seen a yellow natt next to a ruler that size and I am still waiting.
> ...





> key word is believed, Franks proof he have me is Dr.Fink says so, I want a pic with a ruler, I have asked for this for a long time now, and havent seen anything


I was paraphrasing.

But my meaning is that you have not seen a huge red with a ruler so you dont believe they get over 12", and I have not seen a huge yellow next to a ruler so how can I believe they get over 14"?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

To satisfy Nate I will say the same thing as him, _its not my fish to measure, go ask Fink. _ Would you like his email address? I'm sure he would love to hear from such an experienced systemics professor like you Nate.....hmmmmmm?


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

lets say for arguments sake that Yellow Natts do not then, I just want proof of a 14" Nattereri, is that so hard to prove? If so then they must not exist, or at least thats my view of it


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I'll also provide Bill a copy of your 18 inches remarks and I saw this and I saw that posts.....just so he gets a good feeling for where you have your mind (and your head).


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> lets say for arguments sake that Yellow Natts do not then, I just want proof of a 14" Nattereri, is that so hard to prove? If so then they must not exist, or at least thats my view of it


 Then you can show us proof of these 14" ternetzi. Otherwise they must not exist, according to your view of it. Or does your view only apply to you and not others who only ask that you provide the same as what you ask of them?


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I dont care what you do, get me PHYSICAL proof of it.

Or in your mentality, it is false if you cannot prove it. And I said believed to be 18" you extremely intelligent person.

Collects of them in SA catch them at 16" or so all the time or so I am told by importers here in the states, they just never make it back alive


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Neoplasia said:


> Sir Nathan XXI said:
> 
> 
> > lets say for arguments sake that Yellow Natts do not then, I just want proof of a 14" Nattereri, is that so hard to prove? If so then they must not exist, or at least thats my view of it
> ...


 thats what I just said to end that arguement, lets say they dont exist,


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Nate, I dont see why you want to see proof of a 14" red? I have never seen a 24" rhom or a 24" piraya, but those are the reported max sizes (I think) and we are not disputing there max size. As a matter of fact, I have seen very few pictures of p's even close to the reported max size.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Mar 19 2003, 05:21 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I dont care what you do, get me PHYSICAL proof of it.
> 
> ...


So where is your measured proof of 16 inches or so? and I find it a bit ironic that they don't bring these back alive without a measurement for you to prove. Wonder why?


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

F it, you guys cannot handle a civil conversation, max size for whatever = I dont give a sh*t anymore


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Xenon: I think this is going be another SuperNate extravaganza with his: _I'm right and your wrong and I want you prove I'm right that your wrong_ type threads. Very common occurance with this young man. I'm sure the entire forum is tired of it. It detracts from what was an interesting topic.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> I dont care what you do, get me PHYSICAL proof of it.
> 
> Or in your mentality, it is false if you cannot prove it. And I said believed to be 18" you extremely intelligent person.
> 
> Collects of them in SA catch them at 16" or so all the time or so I am told by importers here in the states, they just never make it back alive


 Nate you are contradicting yourself yet again. Let me get this straight, a noted scientist in the field says something but you don't believe him. But you believe importers who have no formal training in ichyology when they tell you they get these moster fish? Your double standards are pretty large there kiddo.



> Posted on Mar 19 2003, 12:23 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> ...


I am confused to this statement. Are you saying that these ternetzi do not exist now or just the nattereri? If the former why the sudden change of stance? Is it because you cannot substantiate the claims?


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

you are the one that starts the problem, I ask you for a simple task of proof of the 14" Nattereri and you dont have it so you start sh*t up all over again, you are the problem here


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> F it, you guys cannot handle a civil conversation, max size for whatever = I dont give a sh*t anymore


Nate, on the contrary. A civil conversation is exactly what we are having. Notice we are quoting and trying to get to the bottom of this. We aren't the ones incapable of civility here, as has been shown several times in the past, nor are we using profanities.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> you are the one that starts the problem, I ask you for a simple task of proof of the 14" Nattereri and you dont have it so you start sh*t up all over again, you are the problem here


 Again you are mistaken. It is quite ironic that you demand the one thing you refuse to provide yourself. I believe that you were the one who started this debate by refuting the 14" nattereri statement.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

oh well, what the heck:


> you are the one that starts the problem, I ask you for a simple task of proof of the 14" Nattereri and you dont have it so you start sh*t up all over again, you are the problem here


And I demanded proof of your 18 inches, 16 inches or whatever inch ternetzi that you are hooked on exists. You are creating your own problems, not I.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

you must not have a life dude, all you ever do is harass me, dont you have something better to do

dont talk about profanity to me, you use it all the time


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

hastatus said:


> oh well, what the heck:
> 
> 
> > you are the one that starts the problem, I ask you for a simple task of proof of the 14" Nattereri and you dont have it so you start sh*t up all over again, you are the problem here
> ...


 one simple question and then I am done, do you have or can you get physical proof of a Nattereri greater than 12" in length?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Mar 19 2003, 05:35 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> you must not have a life dude, all you ever do is harass me, dont you have something better to do
> 
> dont talk about profanity to me, you use it all the time


Well there is an answer for it all. Anyone that believes that go visit my pinned topic section in Piranha Science. Me, I'm going to go watch the news. I have a son in harms way and that is far more important to me then a silly boy with silly notions (and no proof to back his 18 inch fish) to stay focused on. Neo? Be gentle, he does have problems.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

all you ever had to do is to admit to me you have no proof of your statement of a 14" Nattereri, but instead you try to hide that by rediculing me, everything you say about me is whats true about yourself,

I wish you son luck though, that is a serious matter.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

I use profanity in here? Really? I may use the occasional mild curse word but I do not use profane words like you do when you are frustrated about being called out.

Frank has offered to provide Dr. Fink's contact information so you can discover the proof for yourself. Maybe you should take him up on that offer, then maybe you will quit whining about it.

So, when are YOU going to show proof for all the claims you have made? To date you have been all talk with no show. "I've seen this, I've heard that" seems to be enough for you when you say it, but when other much more credible people do the same suddenly it is insufficient.









I will Frank, I'm not out to make anyone cry so unless he says something of substance I'll leave him alone to sulk.

Oh and Nate, yes I do have a life. Just so happens that what I do is done on computer so I can multi-task between that and the Internet. Provides me plenty of entertainment when things get dull here. Plenty.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

The thing i dont understand is why does a picture need to be provided. If I am a scientist, and I go down to the Amazon to observe reds, and I pull a few out of the water, give them accurate measurements and jot them down in my notebook....then throw the fish back. A scientists word is all the 'proof' he needs.

I think your stretching a bit here Nate.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Neoplasia said:


> I use profanity in here? Really? I may use the occasional mild curse word but I do not use profane words like you do when you are frustrated about being called out.
> 
> Frank has offered to provide Dr. Fink's contact information so you can discover the proof for yourself. Maybe you should take him up on that offer, then maybe you will quit whining about it.
> 
> ...


 let me rephrase it then I ask for Franks proof and the best answer he could muster was, his quote that I say Ternetzi are BELIEVED to reach a size around 18"

that is being called out and changing the subject to avoid the fact he didnt have proof, I doubt Fink told him that and thats why the word is not good enough, I would trust Finks word but I dont have any proof he said it


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Mike, you have to have proof though, why should people blindly believe you? thats how things get screwy


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> Mike, you have to have proof though, why should people blindly believe you? thats how things get screwy


 Good, I see you are finally starting to understand.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Neoplasia said:


> Sir Nathan XXI said:
> 
> 
> > Mike, you have to have proof though, why should people blindly believe you? thats how things get screwy
> ...


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> Mike, you have to have proof though, why should people blindly believe you? thats how things get screwy


Remind me to ask every scientist in the world to take photographs of everything they have ever observed. This is getting absurd.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

FOR THE RECORD:

Here is my actual quote from OPEFE web site:



> There seem to be some questions about the maximum size of the species, but recorded examples range from 30-35 cm total length.


And in so saying, I'm getting data on P. nattereri captured sizes from Manaus in a few days. Then Nate you are strongly advised to release your data and proof on your so-called ternetzi sizes. Otherwise, keep your mouth (as in your typing fingers) shut and let the people that know what they are talking about give the accurate proof instead of the constant baloney we are being fed by you and your SuperNate facts.


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## mdemers883 (Jan 9, 2003)

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> all you ever had to do is to admit to me you have no proof of your statement


Am I the only one that finds him saying this to be extremely funny.

Mark


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## DiXoN (Jan 31, 2003)

neo

just to deviate from whats being said in the later posts 
was i correct neo in posting that the 11-12'' red pic was posted on pfish by someone who claimed to have one then got sounded out and proved himself correct
dixon


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Man, here we go again









Frank, be careful: soon you may have your forum stuffed with pinned topics









I know Knifeman's ternetzi is pretty huge, but I'm not sure what size it is...


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Do you remember who that was? I can't. I've seen some others as well from old members that have gone MIA unfortunately.

Mdemers yes I know pretty annoying but oh well, c'est la vie! :smile:


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Frank, be careful: soon you may have your forum stuffed with pinned topics
> 
> I know Knifeman's ternetzi is pretty huge, but I'm not sure what size it is...


 Oh, not worried about pinning topics. I think those that visit for the first time or come from that web site will get a good idea of what they are dealing with. As for Knifeman's ternetzi. I'm well aware of the fish and what took place. As for the so-called ternetzi reported and its size, I intend to hold off publishing that until I receive the information from Manaus to put all of this together for all to read. In the meantime, I sincerely hope SuperNate aka Sir Nathan is getting his facts together with his proof on these monster ternetzi.


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

Sorry wrong post not us......


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > Frank, be careful: soon you may have your forum stuffed with pinned topics
> >
> > I know Knifeman's ternetzi is pretty huge, but I'm not sure what size it is...
> 
> ...


 they arent my fish but I will see what I can do.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

john's (knifemans) old ternetzi was at least 14". it made my 3 ternetzis look small and i have measured my biggest one between 12.5" and 13". the fish is now j bolins. 
i have 3 11" reds but have never seen any bigger. i know that john wanted to trade a true 12" red for a 12" caribe and no one could produce one. 
wes


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> PIRANHA KING Posted on Mar 20 2003, 04:03 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> john's (knifemans) old ternetzi was at least 14". it made my 3 ternetzis look small and i have measured my biggest one between 12.5" and 13". the fish is now j bolins.
> i have 3 11" reds but have never seen any bigger. i know that john wanted to trade a true 12" red for a 12" caribe and no one could produce one.
> wes


 Thank you Wes, but that is not proof nor accurate measuring ie; _i have measured my biggest one between 12.5" and 13"._ Bolin has no credibility so using him for a reference will get you nowhere unless he has a photo of a 16 or 18 inch ternetzi with a ruler.



> i have 3 11" reds but have never seen any bigger.


 Fine, take them out and measure them with a ruler. Takes only a moment and I can tell you how to do it.

Raptor:


> but there is a slight angle and may not ever proove it.


 nope, it won't.


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## WebHostExpert (Jan 16, 2003)

Little harsh here frank. I don't wanna get in the middle of this.
Later
MAD


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Little harsh here frank. I don't wanna get in the middle of this.
> Later
> MAD


 Not at all.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

ya i didn't take it as harsh. he's right it's not proof nor was it accurate measuring. i also don't think the fish is close to 16". i think its right around 14". but thats just my opinion. not trying to start any trouble.
wes


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## red devils red (Mar 12, 2003)

how much would a 12inch red go for,or could you put aprice on a red that big or bigger? or is it whatever your willing to pay?


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## DiXoN (Jan 31, 2003)

neo
i cant remember it was such a long time ago but it was the only red i have seen next to a ruler which was the size the owner said it was 
dixon


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I think everyone here needs to be patient. I have the data from Manaus and just verifying a few things. Then I will post this information at my Pirana Science and pin it for all to read, probably later today.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

overbite said:


> neo
> i cant remember it was such a long time ago but it was the only red i have seen next to a ruler which was the size the owner said it was
> dixon


 Nuts. So long ago now I can't remember either, and there's no chance it'd still be posted (we prune old posts from time to time).


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Science position on P. nattereri 

All data is now released. Go to Pirana Science and it is pinned. Nate you will have to disprove Dr. Paulo Petry and Elizabeth Leão, not me.


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