# Alot of controversy latley has got me curious



## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

I know this has been brought up before.But I know this place has grown quite a bit since the last time I did this.Plus no one could give me a deffenite answer as to what this guy is.Please let me know as to what you guys think please.thanks ak!!!








This one to show his fins!!








and this one just to show the shape of him!!!


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## Dawgz (Aug 18, 2005)

Spilooooooooooooo


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

IMO S. maculatus... you should PM Frank to confirm ID...







!


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

I was hoping someone would say that and not mac!!!











Mr. Hannibal said:


> IMO S. maculatus... you should PM Frank to confirm ID...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What makes you say that,sir?


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

If that was a spilo that terminal band on his tail would have to be midline. Imo S. Maculatus


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

jerry_plakyda said:


> If that was a spilo that terminal band on his tail would have to be midline. Imo S. Maculatus


Are you talking the black band in his tail-Does midline mean in the middle.If so it does then!!!!!







There is still clear left behind the black band on his tail!!!If that helps at all!!!


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## Dawgz (Aug 18, 2005)

from what ive seen @ pedro's, his spilo's have tails just like urs.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I would say maculatus as well.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

I know what you mean.This has always been an ongoing contreversy over these guys.i would just like someone to beable to tell me for sure!!!!!











Grosse Gurke said:


> I would say maculatus as well.










-Thanks for the input GG









The only thing I know for certain is one out of my remaining ones is a spilo-cause i have several that look totally different than this one!!!!


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## taylorhedrich (Mar 2, 2005)

It is a Serrasalmus maculatus. You cans see some of the black scales mixed in, and he is overall a darker gold color. Spilos are a very light yellow color like Slim's maculatus. Have you seen pictures of GG's new huge spilo? If you take a look at the coloration you will know what I mean.









I wouldn't even go by the hyaline border on the tail anymore. It's been proven that it changes anyway...
~Taylor~


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

taylorhedrich said:


> It is a Serrasalmus maculatus. You cans see some of the black scales mixed in, and he is overall a darker gold color. Spilos are a very light yellow color like Slim's maculatus. Have you seen pictures of GG's new huge spilo? If you take a look at the coloration you will know what I mean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the inquiry taylor.Yes i have seen GG's new guy!!!!I know there is alot of contraversy here.I have several that look different than this guy.I think the best bet would be to post a pic of all my macs/spilo's and then see what light you guys shine on the situation.I have posted them before but not got much response-I think there is enough contaversy nowadays to make it a go!!!!


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## starbury (Jan 30, 2006)

hope you don't mind gg but this is what a splio looks like at 11 inches
View attachment 112121
View attachment 112119


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

Looks like Mac to me too,I think they are just about the best looking serras out there.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

starbury said:


> Looks like Mac to me too,I think they are just about the best looking serras out there.


Have to agree-Jon did me a favor when he sent me these beauties!!!!


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## starbury (Jan 30, 2006)

no what i ment to say is that splio is grosse not mine


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

HAHAHAH,Looked totally different to me.Sorry for the confusion


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## taylorhedrich (Mar 2, 2005)

I was always under the impression that spilos had clear eyes like a cariba, but obviously they have a black band in them according to GG's spilo.








~Taylor~

EDIT: BTW, if you look at GG's spilo's tail, you will notice that there is very little hyaline border. Just another reason to not base the 2 apart on the tail.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

I want to honestly say that I think no one has a clue between the difference of the 2.Someone always says something different about the two.



taylorhedrich said:


> I was always under the impression that spilos had clear eyes like a cariba, but obviously they have a black band in them according to GG's spilo.
> 
> 
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> ...


I would like to know for sure how GG knows it's a spilo and not a mac(besides size alone).WHAT IS THE DAMN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO!!!!WHERE IN THE HELL IS FRANK WHEN YOU NEED HIM!!!!


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## taylorhedrich (Mar 2, 2005)

AKSkirmish said:


> I want to honestly say that I think no one has a clue between the difference of the 2.Someone always says something different about the two.


Yeah, well I've always heard on this forum that they had clear eyes, so I guess in my mind I was picturing them with eyes like a cariba.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

taylorhedrich said:


> I want to honestly say that I think no one has a clue between the difference of the 2.Someone always says something different about the two.


Yeah, well I've always heard on this forum that they had clear eyes, so I guess in my mind I was picturing them with eyes like a cariba.








[/quote]

Like mine or totally clear!!!!


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## taylorhedrich (Mar 2, 2005)

AKSkirmish said:


> I want to honestly say that I think no one has a clue between the difference of the 2.Someone always says something different about the two.


Yeah, well I've always heard on this forum that they had clear eyes, so I guess in my mind I was picturing them with eyes like a cariba.:nod:
[/quote]

Like mine or totally clear!!!!








[/quote]
Like a cariba, totally clear without the black band. It's just what I pictured when people would say clear eyes....so I really don't know either obviously.

I wonder when Frank will be back from his road trip!








~Taylor~


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

taylorhedrich said:


> I want to honestly say that I think no one has a clue between the difference of the 2.Someone always says something different about the two.


Yeah, well I've always heard on this forum that they had clear eyes, so I guess in my mind I was picturing them with eyes like a cariba.:nod:
[/quote]

Like mine or totally clear!!!!








[/quote]
Like a cariba, totally clear without the black band. It's just what I pictured when people would say clear eyes....so I really don't know either obviously.

I wonder when Frank will be back from his road trip!








~Taylor~
[/quote]

I dont know but I would like to get an answer on this issue!!!!Look at GG's pic and mine the eyes are totally different-so what gives!!!!


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## SpeCiaLisT (Aug 12, 2005)

I used to own 2 Gold Spilos (not macs) and they're body shape was like pygos and all gold at around 2-3 inch. Right now I have 2 macs and they look way different. I would look at the body shape, eye, and the tail of the two species to determine the difference.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

SpeCiaLisT said:


> I used to own 2 Gold Spilos (not macs) and they're body shape was like pygos and all gold at around 2-3 inch. Right now I have 2 macs and they look way different. I would look at the body shape, eye, and the tail of the two species to determine the difference.


Yeah but what is the exact difference between the two!!!


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## Mortimer (Jul 28, 2005)

I was told (on here) that mine was a mac. His eyes are definately turning red unless he's got a problem with both. And that black on his tail does not quite reach the end. He's 6 1/2 inches.

My Mac

Maybe these pics will help.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Mortimer said:


> I was told (on here) that mine was a mac. His eyes are definately turning red unless he's got a problem with both. And that black on his tail does not quite reach the end. He's 6 1/2 inches.
> 
> My Mac
> 
> Maybe these pics will help.


Thanks,And to me the one you have pictured and mine look totally different to me!!!


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## starbury (Jan 30, 2006)

here are some more pics of true splios
View attachment 112154
View attachment 112153


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

starbury said:


> here are some more pics of true splios
> View attachment 112154
> View attachment 112153


As for them pics the only difference I see between them and mine is that the ones pictured from pedro is that the snout/nose region looks to be more elongated other than that I can tell no difference other than the eye pattern is alittle different-sh*t I think i just answered my own ?!!!!!!!Thanks for the help there guys


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## taylorhedrich (Mar 2, 2005)

AKSkirmish said:


> here are some more pics of true splios
> View attachment 112154
> View attachment 112153


As for them pics the only difference I see between them and mine is that the ones pictured from pedro is that the snout/nose region looks to be more elongated other than that I can tell no difference other than the eye pattern is alittle different-*sh*t I think i just answered my own ?!!!!!!!*Thanks for the help there guys








[/quote]


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## DuffmanRC (Oct 2, 2003)

and if you notice there is light black spotting on your fish where there is none on the last 2


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

DuffmanRC said:


> and if you notice there is light black spotting on your fish where there is none on the last 2


I realize this now!!!,I am going to be posting pics of all my golds to show eveyone all the different varients I have!!!!


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## the_w8 (Jul 28, 2003)

I tohught spilos had more of a pygo shaped head also....yours definitely has a serra shape so i'd have to say Maculatus


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

the_w8 said:


> I tohught spilos had more of a pygo shaped head also....yours definitely has a serra shape so i'd have to say Maculatus


Yep I have to agree now.But I am almost positve now that I do have a true spilo out of the other 4 I still have!!!!


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

I want Frank


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> I want Frank


Although he couldn't give me a clear answer either!!!!!!I gave about 4 diffent pics to look at with 2 different golds!!!


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

Here's my Mac with red eyes and black edge tail band.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> Here's my Mac with red eyes and black edge tail band.


Nice,But see none of mine have red eyes they are all clear.I have several different ones that difer between the tail regions and the nose regions(they look totally different.Some of mine have the black at the end of the tail some in the middle.Some have a hairline black line that outlines the fins other's dont.it seems awfully wierd if i didn;'t have a spilo out of the bunch!!!


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## rchan11 (May 6, 2004)

AKSkirmish said:


> Here's my Mac with red eyes and black edge tail band.


Nice,But see none of mine have red eyes they are all clear.I have several different ones that difer between the tail regions and the nose regions(they look totally different.Some of mine have the black at the end of the tail some in the middle.Some have a hairline black line that outlines the fins other's dont.it seems awfully wierd if i didn;'t have a spilo out of the bunch!!!








[/quote]

There must be different variations of Spilos and Mac.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

rchan11 said:


> Here's my Mac with red eyes and black edge tail band.


Nice,But see none of mine have red eyes they are all clear.I have several different ones that difer between the tail regions and the nose regions(they look totally different.Some of mine have the black at the end of the tail some in the middle.Some have a hairline black line that outlines the fins other's dont.it seems awfully wierd if i didn;'t have a spilo out of the bunch!!!








[/quote]

There must be different variations of Spilos and Mac.
[/quote]

Yep there has to be.They very too damn much!!!!!I will start to get pics in order aand see what I can do about posting all of them showing all the diferences i talk about.It will take some time,but I will get to this in the near future!!!!I want to see what everyone has to say about it!!!!


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## Dezboy (Apr 2, 2006)

IMO, this is a splio for 2 reasons, cos there is a distinct terminal band and also macs normally have black tips on ther ventral fins....


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

I would like to think the same,but other's dont.I will get a confermation soon on this issue!!!


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## SpeCiaLisT (Aug 12, 2005)

Keep in mind that Macs have a purple flank on them even when they are small you can see them. Well I did some google and found a real gold spilo at 10 inch.

Found this site: http://www.piranha-info.com/default.php?la...d=s_spilopleura


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Thanks for the info,But in all honesty i am totally lost in this discussion now.I will just wai t for frank to give me an answer!!!!I appreciate the help though!!!


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## Dezboy (Apr 2, 2006)

that is one tatty P.............


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## starbury (Jan 30, 2006)

There's really no answer to your question as the name "maculatus" is a scientific name that is presently a mess, further exponded by M. Jegu in resurrecting and publishing that name.

The person who says they have a "real one" is just as correct as anyone who says they have a "maculatus". Until a competen... franks explanation


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

starbury said:


> There's really no answer to your question as the name "maculatus" is a scientific name that is presently a mess, further exponded by M. Jegu in resurrecting and publishing that name.
> 
> The person who says they have a "real one" is just as correct as anyone who says they have a "maculatus". Until a competen... franks explanation


True true-


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Since my Private Message reply was posted and taken out of context. Here is the entire conversation:



> hastatus Re:splio, Yesterday, 04:41 PM
> 
> "Frank Magallanes, OPEFE"
> 
> ...


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

hastatus said:


> Since my Private Message reply was posted and taken out of context. Here is the entire conversation:
> 
> 
> 
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Thanks for the heads up frank-I'm working on taking pics of all the different golds and there marking for you to take alook at for me and see if we can get n e better info!!!!!I'll be pm'ing you in the near future sir!!!!!!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Here is a photo of a bottle of "true" S. spilopleura taken at Fink's lab. Plenty there that could pass for S. maculatus.


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## mashunter18 (Jan 2, 2004)

As to Why gross gurkes is a spilo, pretty simple answer, the size.......... According to opefe, maximum length for mac is around 20 cm...............spilo 25 cm.........standard length..........That one is easy..........now if that will change in the future...I dont know, but as it stands now, thats that..........

My tank bred macs, fit spilo description......lol.......morphology and they will change as they mature.

MY personal opionion, is the eyes...........clear eyes is spilo............red eyes is macs....Every large spilo IV seen has the clear plastic eyes..........every mac gets red eyes by 5-6", that I have seen............

Everyone wants to go to the tail, but most people dont have mature fish, so thats not the most accurate.

*IMO and mine only eys all the way on 6" fish or bigger, or its just a guess*


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

mashunter18 said:


> As to Why gross gurkes is a spilo, pretty simple answer, the size.......... According to opefe, maximum length for mac is around 20 cm...............spilo 25 cm.........standard length..........That one is easy..........now if that will change in the future...I dont know, but as it stands now, thats that..........
> 
> My tank bred macs, fit spilo description......lol.......morphology and they will change as they mature.
> 
> ...


Well then sir-By that description you gave-I have myself some spilo's then-None of mine have red eyes!!!!!!!!!And the tail fits in the description as well-All of them are currently at the 6 inch mark-What do you call mature sir?







Thanks for the info sir!!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> mashunter18 Posted Yesterday, 07:13 PM
> As to Why gross gurkes is a spilo, pretty simple answer, the size.......... According to opefe, maximum length for mac is around 20 cm...............spilo 25 cm.........standard length..........That one is easy..........now if that will change in the future...I dont know, but as it stands now, thats that..........
> 
> My tank bred macs, fit spilo description......lol.......morphology and they will change as they mature.
> ...


If only it were all that simple.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

hastatus said:


> > mashunter18 Posted Yesterday, 07:13 PM
> > As to Why gross gurkes is a spilo, pretty simple answer, the size.......... According to opefe, maximum length for mac is around 20 cm...............spilo 25 cm.........standard length..........That one is easy..........now if that will change in the future...I dont know, but as it stands now, thats that..........
> >
> > My tank bred macs, fit spilo description......lol.......morphology and they will change as they mature.
> ...


well,frank-Will there ever be an end n e time soon sir?This sure is some confusing sh*t man!!!!


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## mashunter18 (Jan 2, 2004)

> If only it were all that simple.


I agree Frank. I certainly dont have bottles of specimans to examine either.......lol..........

I think they should be called the same species, like natts and terns. But the dna is probually not right for that.....lol..........


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

I guess that no one really knows then huh(as you can tell I am confused over this issue).


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## SpeCiaLisT (Aug 12, 2005)

Your not the only one man. CoFnuSdeD.


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

good topic I really liked reading this. ak could you post all the picks of your golds mine is 6.5 and has clear eyes.


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## PygoFanatic (May 2, 2006)

I'm down for calling them the same thing. If Natts and Terns have to be classified as the same thing, then Spilos and Macs should sure as hell be classified as the same thing. Whenever anybody IDs a potential mac/spilo, they always say "Mac" and never say why. When people ask them why, there is no response.

"S. Maculatus-Spilopleura. ID Complete."

Tom


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> AKSkirmish Posted Today, 10:49 AM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Jul 26 2006, 09:11 AM)
> 
> QUOTE
> ...


I'm still waiting to read the Jegu revision of the Bolivian S. spilopleura which includes a photo of the species (which I presently have ie; the photo, but do not have permission to release for public viewing yet).

As I have said many times, until the species is completely reviewed we are stuck with S. maculatus name for those species that Jegu has divided from S. spilopleura. I could via OPEFE just simply list them all as S. spilopleura, but that would not be "science" and would open a bigger can of worms within the hobbyist and especially the science community. It is not fair to Jegu to dismiss his work without a more competent authority having a chance at either validating the information or putting S. maculatus as a synonym to S. spilopleura (where I personally believe it should be).


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## PygoFanatic (May 2, 2006)

hastatus said:


> > AKSkirmish Posted Today, 10:49 AM
> > QUOTE(hastatus @ Jul 26 2006, 09:11 AM)
> >
> > QUOTE
> ...


*

Until there is something concrete that lets everybody know whether they have a Mac or a Spilo, I think that is the way to go...

Tom*


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

06 C6 LS2 said:


> > AKSkirmish Posted Today, 10:49 AM
> > QUOTE(hastatus @ Jul 26 2006, 09:11 AM)
> >
> > QUOTE
> ...


Thanks frank







I totally agree with you so far!!!I just hope it all gets sorted in the future!!!


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