# Exodons with your Pygos



## CTREDBELLY (Apr 8, 2005)

according to the people i bought my reds from yes it will work cause the exodon is to fast for the P to catch.

i found them today at my LFS with a sign that said "Exodons are feared by the mighty piranha,in a pack big enough they can destroy piranha. only add this fish to your tank if you dont care at all about what happens to your other fish, this is natures meat grinder."

he dropped some feeders in there and they were gone in no time flat. so i figured ahh hell lets get 1 and see that happens. put him in the tank all goes well. so i go upstairs to make my lil fellas some lunch mmmmm SHRIMP. come back down and this is what i saw.

they took his head CLEAN OFF and he was still pumping at the gills and moving his mouth as seen in the pics for 5 mins


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## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)

Guess they dont work Huh ?


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## CTREDBELLY (Apr 8, 2005)

yeah just thought i let u guys know b4 u go pay $5-$10 per exodon to add life to the tank to find they will die


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

I've never heard of anybody doing anything at all with a single exodon anyway...
They're a shoaling fish.


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## Joga Bonito (Oct 30, 2004)

same thing happend to my exo, soon as it hit the water they were going after it, until they cought it and ate it, they just left the head.


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

well its a lesson learned and im happy you posted it to let everyone know







, cause i think that

there isnt anything you can keep with piranhas, they eat fish for cryin out loud


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

very funny!!







ya, take the pics back to the lfs that sold it to you...









I have relatives in the fish business and I got a shoal of 12 and put them in with my p's (knowing what would happen) and they are finally dwendling down day by day..

I have 5 left.. but its been 3 months.. not bad ... gives them exercise..


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## Phtstrat (Sep 15, 2004)

Lesson learned man









Ask true hobbyists what you should do, not people who are just trying to sell you something.

And hey, at least it was only one!


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## Sam (Mar 18, 2004)

I've had three exos with my p's since October. I know it may not last long...but P's are unpredictable. 
You can never say for sure what will or will not work...


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## spec-v (Feb 27, 2005)

that suxs


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## CTREDBELLY (Apr 8, 2005)

i had a feeling it would happen my Ps are nasty lil bastards. glad i only bought 1 exo


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## Sheriff Freak (Sep 10, 2004)

ha failure.


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## hrdbyte (Feb 2, 2005)

sh*t happens man dont let it bother you... I like to f*ck around like that some times money is not the issue........


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## tweekie (Nov 3, 2004)

Only success ive had (kind of) is tiger barbs. bought 12, have three left now after about 2 months now and they swim right up to the Ps aswel. eventually they will be gone but enjoying it while it lasts.


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## red&black (Feb 25, 2005)

ive had 5 exodons with my pygos with no problems. once they got used to their tank they do great.


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## CTREDBELLY (Apr 8, 2005)

i still have 3 of 5 black neon tetras left in the tank too. i wonder if it didn't fair well cause it was only 1 exodon im gonan try 5 next time


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## Sam (Mar 18, 2004)

Sam said:


> I've had three exos with my p's since October. I know it may not last long...but P's are unpredictable.
> You can never say for sure what will or will not work...
> [snapback]980584[/snapback]​


Not two days have passed since that post and I am now down to 2 exos after having them with my pygos for over 6 months.


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## CTREDBELLY (Apr 8, 2005)

Sam said:


> Sam said:
> 
> 
> > I've had three exos with my p's since October. I know it may not last long...but P's are unpredictable.
> ...


guess my post was a jinx to you........

p.s. might want to update your sig now from 3 exodons. gotta love pygos, exodons are so damn fast buy pygos are presistant lil fcukers


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## Zip (Apr 17, 2005)

well heck, saw this post (and found this website) just a little too late. Bought 3 exo's 5 hrs ago.

Have had my RBP's 3 yrs with a pleco who will turn and charge them if they get too close to him. Not sure what he thinks he can do if he catches one, but luckily for him, they haven't made him show his cards...yet.


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## shoe997bed263 (Oct 15, 2004)

you should read the pinned thread above about what can be kept with p's i get neon tetras to put in all of my tanks and they are faster than exo's and they get eaten eventually. nothing can be kept with p's for a extended period of time...p.s. dont believe everything you hear at your lfs p-fury has the most educated fish people in the buisness


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## red&black (Feb 25, 2005)

it seems like the exodons chase eachother more than the piranhas chase them


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## Richy84 (Jan 1, 2005)

how are exodons? they seem like miniature piranhas?

and how big do they get?


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## sledhead (Sep 6, 2004)

I started with three exo's a year ago and the first night they eat one and after that the two other ones have been just peachy in the 110 with my pygos. Don't know what it was maybe he didn't taste very well and there not up for another one


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## CTREDBELLY (Apr 8, 2005)

shoe997bed263 said:


> you should read the pinned thread above about what can be kept with p's i get neon tetras to put in all of my tanks and they are faster than exo's and they get eaten eventually. nothing can be kept with p's for a extended period of time...p.s. dont believe everything you hear at your lfs p-fury has the most educated fish people in the buisness
> [snapback]983523[/snapback]​


actually pedro from aquascape is the 1 that told me they could be









and to answer the other guy yes exodons are like mini Ps they attack anythign that hits the water and are not as shy as the Ps.


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## routoq (Feb 18, 2005)

Go ahead and try it, see if it works.


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## Dawgnutz (Mar 2, 2005)

Zip said:


> well heck, saw this post (and found this website) just a little too late. Bought 3 exo's 5 hrs ago.
> 
> Have had my RBP's 3 yrs with a pleco who will turn and charge them if they get too close to him. Not sure what he thinks he can do if he catches one, but luckily for him, they haven't made him show his cards...yet.
> [snapback]983521[/snapback]​


My buddy has a pleco like that. The pleco charges the cichlids. Weirdest thing I've seen in a while.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Exodon paradoxus are abundant along sandy rivers and also form one of the primary foods for subadult piranhas. Nice expensive meal you bought them.


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Sucks for you guys, my exodons have been with my piranhas since last june and I haven't lost a one


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> elTwitcho Posted Today, 11:05 AM
> Sucks for you guys, my exodons have been with my piranhas since last june and I haven't lost a one


Alittle more background info and photos if possible. This forum is to educate on what improved conditions are for that type of mix so that they ARE NOT readily eaten.


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## Sam (Mar 18, 2004)

CTREDBELLY said:


> Sam said:
> 
> 
> > Sam said:
> ...


Argh...I think am jinxed. Woke up this morning to find only one exo left.

I don't know how to explain it. They cohabited nicely for over six months, and now two exos gone in a span of two days.

One thing though...my tanks moon-light burned out a few days ago, so they've been in complete darkness at night. And that was the night I lost my first exo...

I wonder if exo's don't do well in the dark? Or if P's hunt better in the dark?


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > elTwitcho Posted Today, 11:05 AM
> > Sucks for you guys, my exodons have been with my piranhas since last june and I haven't lost a one
> 
> 
> ...


Frank, I don't want to give people the impression that this kind of setup is sustainable or even something most people could replicate, just that piranhas do wierd and unpredictable things such as not eating fish they logically should have eaten.

I would venture to guess that not feeding live food may have in someway made my piranhas complacent and there could be an understanding of "why waste the energy of taking down this fast moving fish when a dead fish will get dropped in soon enough". They're about a year old and 5-6 inches SL (a little on the small side because of periods of not eating much having had to move tanks three times). Tank size is square footprint with 36x20 dimensions, three piranhas and adequate cover that they have all set up territories in different corners of the tank. Temperature is 81 fehrenheit with a moderate amount of current in the tank. They seem fairly comfortable in their environment in that they readily eat in front of me and do not hide.

I still don't want to give the impression that there is any method to making this setup work, piranhas are live animals and they are not domesticated animals that are going to behave in some readily predictable way. If it works for me, it's some strange factors that likely apply to my fish and may not have the same effect on another person's fish. If there's any other information you need, I'd nonetheless gladly share it.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> elTwitcho Posted Today, 12:27 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Apr 18 2005, 02:10 PM)
> QUOTE
> elTwitcho Posted Today, 11:05 AM
> ...


This forum is not for creating impressions. Its for helping others decide whether to mix species or not. If they do, they need to look at it with their eyes open and not base it on just HOPE alone. As for the Exo's, one thing that is often overlooked next to the blood and juices that excite piranhas, is that there is always a dither fish that never gets eaten and seems to thrive until one day............. it could be your conditions are suitable in that regard, just like the gold fish. Which is why your reply is important in order unlock the key to what is keeping your unpredicable fish ie; the piranhas, from eating their normal wild diet = Exodon's. I don't buy the complacent argument. They are fish and they eat fish no amount of flake or non-living food will change what they are genetically predisposed to do.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I should add, your fish might be experiencing "conditioned feeding" which might be a clue to why they are not biting the Exodon's. Its fascinating argument.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I'm slow today.







Don't confuse conditioned feeding with flake food. It just means your fish are conditioned to be fed at a certain time of day. And are probably fed well enough for them not to be hungry.


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

hastatus said:


> They are fish and they eat fish no amount of flake or non-living food will change what they are genetically predisposed to do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do agree with this and I don't suggest that feeding your fish alot will suddenly make your fish completely peaceful and you can start adding angelfish to the tank, but most predatory animals will always try and maximize the energy gained from what they eat compared to the energy expended catching that prey. I don't need to get into explaining that because I know you're familiar with it (most likely to a greater extent than I am no less) however I think it could be a mitigating factor in why my exodons don't get bothered. If I let them get hungry enough would they eat my exodons? I'd bet money on it, because eating an exodon is easier than eating another piranha. But do they seem interested in expending the energy necessary to catch and kill an exodon when they aren't particularly hungry? As far as I can tell, no.



hastatus said:


> I should add, your fish might be experiencing "conditioned feeding" which might be a clue to why they are not biting the Exodon's. Its fascinating argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not familiar with conditioned feeding, is it something to the extent of the fish have been conditioned to eat primarily dead food and don't bother hunting or something else? I know the whole idea behind conditioned responses, I just haven't heard of that term or idea before.

EDIT: Ah I just saw your response to conditioned feeding. I'm not sure that's it since I don't feed them at regular times or intervals. It's only a prefference of mine as far as keeping predators go, but I don't believe in feeding every day at the same time as most wild fish do not eat at 4:30pm every day or whatever. They eat when they get the opportunity. As such my fish are fed between 4-6 times a week whenever I happen to drop in food. That could be in the middle of the day, before I go to bed, or anytime inbetween. I might feed them mon-thursday and then not feed them again until sunday night, or I might feed them each night. There's definately no regularity in my fish's diet, I don't have the time or organization for that


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

elTwitcho, my friend, let's see if we can get the science out of the way.

1. Conditioned response: The "automatic" action taken by an animal in response to a stimulus. A behavior that is the result of training or experience. Or more directly, your fish is used to you feeding it at a certain spot each and everytime. Or more scientific Pavlov theory, the dog salivating when it hears a bell ring.









2. Alarm pheromones: These are common with gold fish and are chemicals given off by many species of fish if their skin is broken, such as when the fish gets chomped through (or nearly so) by a predator. Other fish detect the scent of the chemical and react accordingly. It could be your tank is devoid of it and/or you do sufficient water changes to keep the chemical down. Also take note of your Exodon's see if they flicker their fins a lot. This is a signal to their small shoal>>>>WATCH OUT.

The above 2 things are the things I would look at in your tank and why your Exo's haven't been eaten yet.


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Cool Frank,

1. Conditioned Response - I think we can rule this out in light that they are fed at more or less random intervals, and in different parts of the tank. I have made a point of "tossing" the food into the water so it splashes which they have conditioned themselves to (they all look up the moment they hear it). Beyond that however, I don't see enough regularity that they could get in any kind of automatic response.

2. Pheromones - It's quite possible this is what is (or rather, isn't) happening in my tank. I do 20% water changes every few days and while the exodons chase each other constantly, I've never seen a nipped fin or missing scale.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

One other thing to the flicking fin's it also serves as a warning to the piranhas, HEY WE'RE ALERT and WATCHING YOU. Predators rely on surprize to attack. No fun if the prey is staying alert.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> elTwitcho Posted Today, 01:24 PM
> Cool Frank,
> 
> 1. Conditioned Response - I think we can rule this out in light that they are fed at more or less random intervals, and in different parts of the tank. I have made a point of "tossing" the food into the water so it splashes which they have conditioned themselves to (they all look up the moment they hear it). Beyond that however, I don't see enough regularity that they could get in any kind of automatic response.*Your missing a point here, THEY SEE YOU! not necessarily the food. You're associated with it and imprinted in their brain. *
> ...


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > elTwitcho Posted Today, 01:24 PM
> > Cool Frank,
> >
> > 1. Conditioned Response - I think we can rule this out in light that they are fed at more or less random intervals, and in different parts of the tank. I have made a point of "tossing" the food into the water so it splashes which they have conditioned themselves to (they all look up the moment they hear it). Beyond that however, I don't see enough regularity that they could get in any kind of automatic response.*Your missing a point here, THEY SEE YOU! not necessarily the food. You're associated with it and imprinted in their brain. *
> ...


I know YOU can't see missing scales Frank, but my eyes are much younger and better









In all honestly I doubt I'd notice them either, but at the least I can't say that I've seen them missing for sure.

Conditioned response to me equating to food, it's quite possible. Do you think that response overides the normal hunting response so that they don't bother looking for food (ie the exodons)?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Hey I'm waiting for my eye doctor appointment to be set.







Young guys.









I think when you take conditioned response, yes it does have an effect on their hunting. If you look at the Venezuela caribes in the wild, they are conditioned to go to a certain area for food (birds falling). Saves them time looking around for tourists.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Speaking of conditioned response, I can say that my geryi have fallen into this trap. Every time I walk into the room they all come to the front of the tank and linger around the top. This usually last for 5 minutes or so before they realize they are not getting fed and then they move on. I have never fed at regular times, so they will do this almost every time I walk into the room....


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## Zip (Apr 17, 2005)

Zip said:


> well heck, saw this post (and found this website) just a little too late. Bought 3 exo's 5 hrs ago.
> 
> Have had my RBP's 3 yrs with a pleco who will turn and charge them if they get too close to him. Not sure what he thinks he can do if he catches one, but luckily for him, they haven't made him show his cards...yet.
> [snapback]983521[/snapback]​


Well, I came home today and found 2 of my 3 ferocious exo's missing in action. They lasted all of 2 days. The kicker is that I have 3 unscathed bright flashy orange rosie barbs (one long-finned, no less) in the tank. (They're leftovers from another tank I decommissioned the prior weekend - started out with 7 barbs then; these 3 have been around the past 5 days).

Another side note - My p's prefer Hikari Algae wafers as their staple food. You can hear them snap them like potato chips. Stumbled onto that discovery when they kept scarfing them down faster than my (deeply irritated) pleco could eat them. Far less hassle/cost than live food, and great for not clouding the water (and no risk of introducing disease, which is a bigger factor in my planted tank). I checked the ingredients and the first ingredient listed is fish meal, and the p's are always in great health, so hey, what the heck...don't mess with what works. Have tried other less expensive and more expensive wafers, but they will only eat the Hikari.

Incidentally, this is by far the best piranha site I've ever run across, but then y'all probably already know that


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## Zip (Apr 17, 2005)

Zip said:


> Zip said:
> 
> 
> > well heck, saw this post (and found this website) just a little too late. Bought 3 exo's 5 hrs ago.
> ...


Day 3, no more exo's.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

At least you are feeding them well.


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## Zip (Apr 17, 2005)

nothing but the best sushimi for the boys!


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Grosse Gurke said:


> Speaking of conditioned response, I can say that my geryi have fallen into this trap. Every time I walk into the room they all come to the front of the tank and linger around the top. This usually last for 5 minutes or so before they realize they are not getting fed and then they move on. I have never fed at regular times, so they will do this almost every time I walk into the room....
> [snapback]986194[/snapback]​


Sounds a lot like my Redbellies - usually in the evening though, as I always fed them after work, so I guess their internal clock told them at what time the dinner bell could be ringing.
It's really cool to see them all excited like that: all in the midle, near the surface (where the opning op the canope is), looking at me with hopeful glances.


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## BigChuckP (Feb 9, 2004)

I decided to try something with my p when i first got him. Everytime I would feed him I would tap on the plastic ring around the tank a certain number of times, now on my canopy since I picked one up a while ago, and I could certainly see when I did that he would get ready to chow. Just to add something to the conditioned feeding topic


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## sicklid-holic (Mar 25, 2005)

exodons and convicts has about the same chance of survival in a P's tank. 
I would never buy exodons again or put convicts in a p's tanks. Learn my lesson the hard way, bought 27 exodons at $6.00-$8.00 each. at first it was ok, then they slowly start dissapearing, some i found dead in the carpet dried up. 
BTW, they were in a 125gallon tank. So they have plenty of space to swim.
So I figure P's attack the exodons when they are sleeping.









The only tankmate I could suggest for P's is stripe raphael catfish. However you would hardly see them at day time, cuz they are nocturnal and mostly come out at night to feed.


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## red&black (Feb 25, 2005)

Richy84 said:


> how are exodons? they seem like miniature piranhas?
> 
> and how big do they get?
> [snapback]985062[/snapback]​


i read somewhere that they can get up to 6 inches


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> sicklid-holic Posted Apr 21 2005, 12:18 PM
> exodons and convicts has about the same chance of survival in a P's tank.
> I would never buy exodons again or put convicts in a p's tanks. Learn my lesson the hard way, bought 27 exodons at $6.00-$8.00 each. at first it was ok, then they slowly start dissapearing, some i found dead in the carpet dried up.
> BTW, they were in a 125gallon tank. So they have plenty of space to swim.
> ...


An often overlooked fact by hobbyist (almost continuously) is that Exodon paradoxus and cichlids form the natural diet of most piranha and pirambebas. But no matter how often I write this or say this, there are always a large group out there that just don't get it. Anyway, expensive lesson and sorry you lost them and the money.


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