# Spawned Gold Spilo's



## serrasalmus_collector

*Yipppe.. My Gold Spilos have laid eggs again...







I have got 3 spawns out of my shoal of 8 golds and one rhom... I don't know why I put the rhom in with the shoal but he seams to be fine... Him and one of my golds appear to be gaurding a nest and wont let anything near it... I'm not gonna even thing about a spawn together, but it is something really cool... THe rhom has turned pitch black and been like that for over a month... They appear to be somewhat social... Is it common for Rhoms and golds to be together???? I thought not... I can't add any other piranha to the tank or the rhom really attacks it... I had to remove my macculatus, because of the rhoms temperment to that fish...

Well here are the pics I promised....

Getting a 200 gallon this weekend and gonna try the Cariba next... Hope I am successful*


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## traumatic

Congratulations!! Quite a breakthrough for yourself. Do you plan on trying to interbreed if possible? When you get your larger tank, your breeding success and experiments will be quite interesting! What do you plan on doing w/ your new batch of fry? I'll take a few if your getting rid of em!









-traumatic-


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## Mr.P

lol I'll also take some


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## Poseidon X

Technically, i guess they could cross bread... Which would be totally bad ass, Imagine a big ass gold fish with red eyes.







If they breed i will definately buy some of the fry, additionally hybrid fish are usually always much more aggressive because they tend to be skitso


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## mantis

Nice work SC


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## Xenon

I would like to hear more details on this. Tank size, water parameters, etc....


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## serrasalmus_collector

I really don't know if I will be selling any of the fry&#8230; My first two spawns, I already have made arrangements to trade large quantities of them for small piraya and Cariba&#8230; I want to get some really good schools of pygo's going&#8230; I have quite a few large tanks, and an entire basement I will be allotting for Piranha's&#8230; I really have no plans for my my 3rd batch of gold spilo's&#8230; Since the eggs came from where the rhom and gold were guarding I will grow them for a bit&#8230; But if I sell I will let you know&#8230; I'm not out to make money&#8230; I truly think piranhas are severely over priced&#8230; If I sell them I will sell them for $2.00 and inch&#8230;.Don't know what they whole sale for, but I think that is fair&#8230; They didn't cost me much money, so I'm not going to rape people&#8230;I will be putting my 3rd spawn in two 100 gallon tanks so I can raise them up to a decent size&#8230; I am real curious to what a school of 100 gold spilo's will do&#8230; Just maybe I can get the aggression out, and get them to be a cold blooded killing shoal&#8230; I don't know... But I'm going to try to get a large shoal&#8230; The biggest shoal of gold spilo's I ever had was 30&#8230;
I won't contradict people, but I didn't experience much aggression with them&#8230; I had 12 golds, and 9 reds in a 100 gallon tank, and had a spawn&#8230; All I experienced was typical fin nippage&#8230; Now I have a large quantity to experiment with&#8230; Who knows I may put out a book on piranha's&#8230; Just from my personal experiences&#8230;
But now that reds are spawned&#8230; Golds are spawned&#8230; I will be attempting the Caribe next&#8230; If I have success&#8230;I will only use the money from them to aquire large tanks to experiment with the Piraya&#8230; Piraya is my goal, I figure I got just as much a chance as anyone else&#8230; Ternetzi scares me because of its genetic similarities to natteri... Wouldn't it suck to breed teretzi's and typical reds were the result <LOL> he he he&#8230; But I think that is a genetic possibility&#8230; What do you think Frank?????


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## traumatic

so do you think the rhom and the spilo bred? or am I reading into this incorrectly?

<--- very interested

-traumatic-


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## serrasalmus_collector

Details&#8230; OK!!!
Well my tank is 100 gallons 6 foot long style&#8230; My first spawn happened so fast I couldn't believe it&#8230; I had just moved into a new home&#8230; This means brand new tank set-up&#8230; I had a spawn in 3 weeks&#8230; I thought these were harder than reds!!!!... I am run a power head into a large sponge filter&#8230; I do have gravel, and an under gravel filter&#8230; I got a large overhead water fall filter&#8230;
PH level 6.7
Water temp 84 daytime 76 nights
0 ppm ammonia&#8230;
I can test and give you Nitrate, Copper, Phosphate, and Nitrite levels if you want&#8230;
As of now... I can't test for dissolved oxygen&#8230; But my plants are growing like crazy in this tank&#8230; The store I got the plants from said they only life 1 week&#8230; 2 months now, and they got shoots and branches all over the place&#8230; Must be the water <LOL>

Tank situated near a large window with curtain half drawn giving a center illuminated and 2 side's semi-dark&#8230; Spawning material impregnated with wood and natural peat on the sides that are dark&#8230; Fish are actually spawning on both materials&#8230; Means I can collect 2 bundles of egg a harvests&#8230; I have my girl-friend watching the fish&#8230; they seam to eat the eggs immediately after spawning&#8230;Once eggs are laid... I place them in a 29 gallon tank and hatch them&#8230; I only do a 10 gallon water change twice a week&#8230; It seems to be sufficient. (On the Fry Tank)

I am using a black water conditioning agent with 3 acids and salt&#8230;

I use some tricks with water changes, and running the overhead water fall filter&#8230;

Seems to be working&#8230; every time I do the water flow trick I get a spawn within 2 days&#8230;

Ph is set to 7.0 and the fish are fed raw cut beef heart&#8230; This lowers the ph and the buffer keeps it from going super low&#8230;

Using a florescent light with a color wrap on it to simulate the moonlight during night time hours&#8230;. Experiment &#8230; Let me know what you get&#8230;.

Keep the golds feed good&#8230; I give mine raw shrimp, beef heart, chopped chicken breast. I give them live fish 2 times a week real small gold fish&#8230; They actually jump and take the fish off the surface of the water like a bass&#8230; really cool&#8230;.

Caribe is Next!!!!! I will keep you posted...

PS Golds were place in a 29 gallon tank with no feeding for a month&#8230; Just a bubbler and low water temperature&#8230; Water quality was very poor&#8230; I had no choice with my move&#8230; This may have been the so called winter months simulated&#8230;. I don't know&#8230;But the chain of events has lead to a spawn ever 2 weeks, and it's not the same pair of fish spawning... Every time it appears to be a different male designing the nest&#8230; But they don't watch there fry... They eat the eggs immediately&#8230;.

As for the Rohm and spilo I don't know, and I don't want to get any ones hopes up&#8230; The fish spawn in the afternoon every time&#8230; From 1:00pm to 4:00pm I am always @ work&#8230; My girl-friend saw the fish "Having sex as she calls it" she can't tell the fish apart&#8230;She just said it was a big gold, and a small fish&#8230; The rhom is the smallest in the tank and pitch black&#8230;I just know the rhom and the one particular gold was the only fish allow on that side if the tank&#8230; Time will tell&#8230;I don't know why I keep mixing piranha, getting a spawn and being confused&#8230; But I will post pics of the fish as they mature&#8230;


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## fishofury

can you post some pics of the golds and rhom together?


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## traumatic

kinda wonder, if in nature, the results of interbreeding are common to the river variants being construed as different populations of different speces.


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## serrasalmus_collector

Wow&#8230; I can't believe my gold spilo's have spawned again&#8230; It looks like I have discovered a trick with water currents that produce immediate spawning within 3 days&#8230; I noticed this with the last spawn&#8230; The exact same conditions were generated in the home aquarium, on Friday 15, 2003 to Sunday 17, 2003&#8230; Wednesday the 20th I had spawning occur&#8230; I actually saw the fish this time&#8230; Egg eating is almost unstoppable. But approximately 400 eggs were recovered from the 2 fish&#8230;
It was the coolest thing to see&#8230;There were a few eggs in the tank when I got home from work&#8230; I thought I missed it, and they ate them again&#8230; Wow!!! I was wrong&#8230; They were just starting&#8230; This went on for about an hour&#8230; They would shimmer together&#8230; Produce and fertilize eggs, and immediately devour them&#8230;But many were stuck in my spawning material&#8230;Contrary to something I was told, and read online&#8230; The male fish isn't the one with the hook on the anal fin&#8230; I was close enough to see everything&#8230; And I thought these fish were skittish???? They even continued while I was removing water from the tank to place my eggs in&#8230;
I really wish I had a video camera... It was a spectacular sight&#8230;I will be testing this hypothesis of mine again&#8230; I will generate duplicate water conditions next Tuesday-Thursday, in hope of getting them to spawn on the weekend&#8230; That way I am guaranteed to be there with a camera&#8230;. 
If I am correct&#8230; How many repeatable occurrences do I need for my hypothesis to become and general theory????? Where are the scientists here???? Remember I'm the guy who is producing a book on spawning piranha in the small home aquarium&#8230; When I say small I mean 180 gallons or less&#8230; I'm going to try Cariba in my new 180&#8230;.
My goal is still to breed the Piraya species&#8230;With success in both pygo, and Serrasalmus species, I think I may be off to a good start&#8230;.
Thanks for repeatably telling me to breed Reds first Jim!!!! You know who you are&#8230;.. Give me a call sometime soon&#8230;


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## Xenon

I am still skeptical on this. Can you provide photos of the 2 adult specimens for identification and a photo of the complete setup?


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## serrasalmus_collector

Well I have posted pics of my colony, 2nd, and 3rd spawn&#8230; My 4th spawn I can't get a photograph of the eggs&#8230; The eggs for this species is close to a transparent, translucent color&#8230; Kind of like cartilage&#8230; My water is very dark now, and really hard to collect photographs&#8230;My set-up is truly experimental&#8230; Once I can get it to a predictable occurrence with minimal factors I will place photos of the set-up&#8230; I am still slowly eliminating factors to determine all required factors&#8230; This current thing was noticed during my second spawn&#8230; I attempted to duplicate it and there was a predictable result&#8230;I am truly lucky it isn't the same pair of fish spawning each time&#8230; This actually allows me additional times to test my current flow hypothesis&#8230;It was considered during the second spawn&#8230; It worked on the 3rd spawn, and now has happened again on the 4th spawn&#8230;I don't think plants are a key factor&#8230; The first spawn happened with no gravel or plants&#8230; But now that I have added plants there is another re-occurring factor&#8230; The night before the fish spawn, the chew the plants up really bad&#8230;.This chewing of the plants has been noticed on all 3 spawns since I have had plants in the tank&#8230;Another re-occurrence is the time&#8230; All spawns have happened during the afternoon hours to early evening.

Ps&#8230; Guess what&#8230; You're really not gonna believe this one&#8230; My golds killed the rhom&#8230; All that they left was a head, mouth, and eyes&#8230; I assure they acted as a school or team&#8230; This was one mean Mo-fo&#8230; But he is no more&#8230;I didn't see the murder, but don't think it was one gold&#8230; He kept his guard and lasted 2 months&#8230; God rest is soul&#8230; <LOL>


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## Xenon

I would like to see photos of the adult specemins, and set up as a whole, until then this claim is pretty unsupported.. sorry man, I am a skeptic.


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## serrasalmus_collector

There is another posting I have in the same section… “I need help hatching and info on hatching eggs” This has pictures of my adults together


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## Guest

can we get a full tank shot?


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## o snap its eric

How big are your spilos and how many do you have in that tank? You are breeding your spilos in a 100g right? Hmmm some more detailed about tank decore and how you set up your tank to breed would be great!


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## memen

i have a strange impression with this post....


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## Heartless-Dealer

lets see a full tank shot.


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## fishofury




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## caribes?

jealous


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## thuglife

if u do decide to sell some fry i would love to buy a bunch.


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## serrasalmus_collector

Well I'm not trying to be secretive, I just can't take a full picture now&#8230; You won't see a thing&#8230; My water is as dark as tea&#8230;I could only get the close-up&#8230; I do have pics of the entire tank, but it just appears to be dark&#8230; After I do my current flow tricks the water will lighten a bit&#8230; I will take another photo of the full tank&#8230; If I am correct in my hypothesis, my fish should spawn again within a 10 hour predictable period&#8230;I am really trying to turn my hypothesis in to a theory&#8230; Maybe someday a law&#8230;My prediction is next Saturday around 1:00pm&#8230; I will start my water flow trick next Tuesday to Thursday&#8230; That should make spawning happen around 1:00pm Saturday&#8230; I will try like hell to get internet in my home by then&#8230; My yahoo name is Serrasalmus_collector&#8230; It I am correct I will also set up web cam for viewing&#8230; This will be the 3rd time with repeatable and predictable results if I am correct&#8230; You guys can be my witness, and maybe my hypothesis can get some recognition&#8230; This will all go into my book&#8230;
Isn't that the scientific method&#8230;? To produce a repeatable, and predictable occurrence with the same variables present&#8230;Please give me some pointers on the scientific method Frank&#8230;Right now I am power feeding the fish so they can produce the most eggs&#8230;Just bear with me&#8230; I truly think this is a discovery I am making&#8230;I really want to breed piraya next but everyone is telling me to attempt the Cariba&#8230;Now I got the Cariba so looks like they are next&#8230;
The only other clue I can give is salts seem to help, but the first, and second spawn were done without salt, but not within a predictable time period&#8230; If the fish chew the plants up Friday, I am pretty certain Saturday August 30, 2003 will be a guaranteed spawning&#8230;


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## caribes?

my reds bred whenever i did a water change.


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## serrasalmus_collector

Well there is a tremendous difference in reds and golds&#8230; For one the overall scientific name is different&#8230; Reds are in the Pygocentrus family, while Golds are in the Serrasalmus family&#8230; Reds, and Cariba are typically found in nature in schools reaching over thousands&#8230; The Serrasalmus species is different&#8230; In the wild they travel in small shoals normally a dozen or less, but I have been recently informed of golds existing in schools reaching several hundred&#8230; Just getting 9 seven inch golds to co-exist in a 100 gallon tank is somewhat of an accomplishment&#8230;
If reds truly breed every time a water change is done, why are so many people curious on how to breed them??? I am doing more scientific research in my own home&#8230; Ph, phosphate, temperature variation, lighting, overall water current and live plants as stimuli are monitored, and kept constant&#8230;. Well kept constant unless this variation is documented, and outcome recorded&#8230;.
I have heard of reds breeding in a 45 gallon with a ph of 8.5 also&#8230; I am not just after getting them to breed&#8230; I am trying to discover a pattern of when the fish will breed&#8230; If I am successful 7 times with a predictable result, I will then produce the same situation for an entirely different shoal of golds&#8230;Now that I have a few thousand golds&#8230; I will have a surplus to experiment with in the future&#8230;If you aren't monitoring and keeping a ph between 6.0 and 7.0, your fish are spawning in something with is not a normal occurance in nature&#8230;The black water biotope is what I am striving to duplicate&#8230;Other than miles of waterway, I am trying to make my home aquarium as close to thier natural habitat I can create with the funds, and knowledge I have of these biotopes&#8230;
But I am no expert&#8230; By about 6 adult golds put them together and do water changes&#8230; Let me know what you get, and the condition of your fish


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## thuglife

this is amazing, we are seeing history of fish in the making


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## hastatus

> Isn't that the scientific method&#8230;? To produce a repeatable, and predictable occurrence with the same variables present&#8230;Please give me some pointers on the scientific method Frank


 Just one, well versed by my college professor; _assumption is the mother of f--kups._ Other than that, good luck. It appears you are following Jim's instructions well.


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## hastatus

> thuglife Posted on Aug 22 2003, 06:21 PM
> this is amazing, we are seeing history of fish in the making


 Not really, Hiroshe Azuma (a Japanese scientist) did an entire paper on breeding S. gibbus (AKA S. spilopleura). Been duplicated many other times by private hobbyists (check with Matt Schwartz, I believe he is a Pfury member and bred this species on more than one occasion). But good to see some semblance here for PFURY readers to read.


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## Guest

pls. try to get a nice pic of your setup and with a clear shot with the Ps and post it.

my RBPs also laid eggs every three weeks and i don't have enough time to take care of them that's why the frys ended up in the toilet bowl being flushed whenever i'm cleaning the tank and most of them were eaten. 
if anyone of you guys are near from my location, you can take care of the frys and i'm giving it to you for free, because i just like the big Ps to watch before or after work.
to those of you who are interested you can IM me anytime.
it's just my hobby to keep and take care of my RBPs now that they are big and not in the hobby to sell, but giving is the most that i would do.










location: Los Angeles, CA


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## hastatus

> snowcon4u Posted on Aug 22 2003, 06:47 PM
> pls. try to get a nice pic of your setup and with a clear shot with the Ps and post it.
> 
> my RBPs also laid eggs every three weeks and i don't have enough time to take care of them that's why the frys ended up in the toilet bowl being flushed whenever i'm cleaning the tank and most of them were eaten.
> if anyone of you guys are near from my location, you can take care of the frys and i'm giving it to you for free, because i just like the big Ps to watch before or after work.
> to those of you who are interested you can IM me anytime.
> it's just my hobby to keep and take care of my RBPs now that they are big and not in the hobby to sell, but giving is the most that i would do.
> 
> location: Los Angeles, CA


 Will you ship via UPS ground to Oregon? I can find some use for them here.


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## caribes?

try to make them not breed for a month, then try your theory again just to make sure its your theory causing them to breed.


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## serrasalmus_collector

OMG... I was totally un-aware of Hiroshe Azuma papers&#8230; I thought was kind of pioneering in breeding, and documenting conditions and results for golds. Is there any place that has information in Hiroshe Azuma's findings&#8230;? You are truly like an encyclopedia. 
I am really curious about Cariba breeding??? I have heard a lot about them being bred, yet others are telling me they have never been bred in captivity&#8230; Are there any pics of fry and eggs available??? I do post pics of what ever is asked to verify my results&#8230; If not no biggy I don't want to rattle any cages&#8230; If I am successful with the Caribe there will be pics from me&#8230;
I am so bummed&#8230; I knew I should have attempted breeding the Piraya&#8230; Now that I am 99.9% sure is going to be a break through&#8230;All I can say... Who ever can give me some sound advice to breeding the Cariba&#8230;. I'm going to send you 100 of the babies when they are a sellable size&#8230;Or I will include your name in my book if you desire&#8230; Recognition is a great thing..

None the less... I hope to have success in

Reds&#8230; Done
Golds&#8230; Done
Caribe&#8230;. Up-coming
Diamond Spilo.. Had success but chose not to talk about	
Piraya&#8230;. Last but not the least&#8230;

If I am successful.. I will be publishing a book; all piranha collectors will be interested in&#8230; I would rather make money learning, collaborating my knowledge, and helping others than stupid fish sales&#8230; But that's me&#8230;To each his own...


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## o snap its eric

How come you cant talk about the diamond spilos? Can you provide a picture of a diamond spilo. I would like to see one.

Regarding your water trick. Since you may publish a book can you tell us what steps you too for the water trick. Feel free to PM me about it. I am very intrested. THanks. BTW: I got plenty of room for spilos too.


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## serrasalmus_collector

> try to make them not breed for a month, then try your theory again just to make sure its your theory causing them to breed.


Hopothesis not theory... I did say if I was successful 7 times I would try with an entirely different colony... Not trying to be a wise guy... But I think the far superscedes breeding the same fish months later...


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## serrasalmus_collector

> How come you cant talk about the diamond spilos? Can you provide a picture of a diamond spilo. I would like to see one.


Getting off the topic.. But here you go.. You pic of my diamond... I had a bad break-up and lost thousands of $$$ worth of my blacks...


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## o snap its eric

isnt that a spilo cf?


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## Guest

can you tell us or pm me your trick with water currents? Any other tips for getting our piranha to breed?


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## Xenon

dude looks like a Spilo CF/.


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## Guest

> Just one, well versed by my college professor; assumption is the mother of f--kups. Other than that, good luck. It appears you are following Jim's instructions well.


 Can we get the instructions?


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## hastatus

> Xenon Posted on Aug 22 2003, 08:09 PM
> dude looks like a Spilo CF/.


 Could be because it is.



> serrasalmus_collector Posted on Aug 22 2003, 07:25 PM
> OMG... I was totally un-aware of Hiroshe Azuma papers&#8230; I thought was kind of pioneering in breeding, and documenting conditions and results for golds. Is there any place that has information in Hiroshe Azuma's findings&#8230;? You are truly like an encyclopedia.
> I am really curious about Cariba breeding??? I have heard a lot about them being bred, yet others are telling me they have never been bred in captivity&#8230; Are there any pics of fry and eggs available??? I do post pics of what ever is asked to verify my results&#8230; If not no biggy I don't want to rattle any cages&#8230; If I am successful with the Caribe there will be pics from me&#8230;
> I am so bummed&#8230; I knew I should have attempted breeding the Piraya&#8230; Now that I am 99.9% sure is going to be a break through&#8230;All I can say... Who ever can give me some sound advice to breeding the Cariba&#8230;. I'm going to send you 100 of the babies when they are a sellable size&#8230;Or I will include your name in my book if you desire&#8230; Recognition is a great thing..
> 
> None the less... I hope to have success in
> 
> Reds&#8230; Done
> Golds&#8230; Done
> Caribe&#8230;. Up-coming
> Diamond Spilo.. Had success but chose not to talk about
> Piraya&#8230;. Last but not the least&#8230;
> 
> If I am successful.. I will be publishing a book; all piranha collectors will be interested in&#8230; I would rather make money learning, collaborating my knowledge, and helping others than stupid fish sales&#8230; But that's me&#8230;To each his own...


Do some internet and scientific literature search. You'll find that Azuma has bred many difficult fishes including majority of piranas.

I'm afraid your a bit late comer on this topic. However, there is always room for growth. I'm surpized that Jim did not tell you of his successes with Cariba. Perhaps you need to call him again and rehash the topic?


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## serrasalmus_collector

Thanks for the information Frank.. Jim did discuss that a bit with me...Maybe he will want to be a part of my book...
I just hope I'm not too late to make a book... I want to title it "Piranha Breeding in the small home aquarium" With a 200 gallons as a maximum tank sized...You have helped my far more than you realize by conveying information about Azuma!!!!
Have a wonderful day... Maybe this thread will restart Next Saturday... I am real curious if my methods can produce a spawn with in a 10 time period....

Well you guys just love to rip&#8230; I am not a professional @ identifying piranha and never said I was&#8230; From the information I have read; the diamond spilopleura is part of the spilo CF complex&#8230; If I am wrong forgive me for my ignorance&#8230; Please enlighten me!!!! I didn't say mendinia&#8230; I know that one has yellow around the eye&#8230;
I bought 6 of the fish as Diamond Spilo's part of the Spilo CF complex, and that's what I thought the fish were&#8230;
Let's end this thread and continue next weekend&#8230; Let me test my hypothesis&#8230; If I get internet I will set up camcorder and all can view via Yahoo&#8230; If am I not successful, just a small set back&#8230; I have a database of all the information gather so far&#8230; My hypothesis may be modified. But with persistence I will master breeding numerous species of Piranha with accuracy&#8230; And produce a kick azz book.


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## Poseidon X

hey great work, Breeding is the true sign of the dedicated hobbyist. Someone needs to make an attempt at breeding brandtii... i was planning on it, but im not home to oversee it (at college) nor do i have the funds for the huge tank required and the addition adult brandtii. Mistakes would be very costly but the benefits would be very nice...


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## Xenon

serrasalmus_collector said:


> Well you guys just love to rip&#8230;


 I didnt see a rip in this whole thread....







we are just helping you have the most accurate info for your experiments.....


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## Poseidon X

:laugh: i think everyone is looking forward to hearing your advice.


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## o snap its eric

There was no rip like xenon said. We infact helped you. Say you to publish your book and you label the Spilo CF as a diamond then there would be a major error. Anyhow, no one is hating on you. We were just excited that someone has acutally bred a diamond spilo let alone own one.

Back to the water trick, fill us in man. Please?


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## hastatus

> Xenon Posted on Aug 22 2003, 10:07 PM
> QUOTE (serrasalmus_collector @ Aug 22 2003, 04:56 PM)
> Well you guys just love to rip&#8230;
> 
> I didnt see a rip in this whole thread.... we are just helping you have the most accurate info for your experiments.....


Did I miss something?


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## Hehehe I just

cool


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## InSinUAsian

You have to understand that people are going to ask questions, ESPECIALLY when you want to withhold info and pics that would strentghen your accomplishements. Post some pics ASAP. I, for one, would be extremely interested in hearing more about your processes.

~Dj


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## thePACK

very interesting................


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## baz

looking forward to reading your book all the bast mate


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## piranha45

your sitting on a goldmine there, man!


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## Guest

????update???


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## serrasalmus_collector

> * UPDATE*


 Well so far so good with my hypothesis. Looks like the golds will spawn again very soon&#8230;There is intense fin nippage with lots of food present, and nest building occurring on both spawning materials&#8230; The nest builders, possibly males, are getting territorial about the nest area&#8230;
Other than my rhomb casualty, there has been very minimal aggression among my golds&#8230; I have had these fish together with an occasional odd species of piranha for a little over a year and a half&#8230; This is the first time I have seen large chunks taken out of the fins since juvenile period&#8230;I'm predicting a large spawn of at least 500 eggs on both spawning materials Saturday&#8230; Not sure if I will have internet, but I will film it&#8230;I will keep you posted on the progress&#8230;

Ps... If my hypothesis is wrong don't poke fun&#8230; I have got them to spawn 4 times, and truly think it will happen again on Saturday&#8230;If I am incorrect I will look at my database of conditions and graphs&#8230; I am 100% positive spawning will be occurring in the next few days&#8230; Hope I wasn't too cocky with my prediction of a time period with my water flow hypothesis&#8230; But who knows I may be correct, and that would be a great discovery&#8230;I have my large tank set up for the Caribe&#8230; But I do a shallow tank conditioning to my fish prior to spawning&#8230; The Caribe is undergoing that now&#8230; Let's wait and see if I can get them to spawn next&#8230;.
Soon I will have enough golds to bargin with a friend of mine and acquire 12 small Piraya&#8230; That is my overall goal so spawn them&#8230;. This is not a hypothesis off mine; I just chose to work with small fish&#8230; I haven't ever had luck buying big fish and attempting to spawn them&#8230; But a store owner did spawn my large reds I sold them&#8230;Working with small fish, and establishing a social order is strictly my preference&#8230;


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## Pacficco

you have mail.


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## Guest

> and nest building occurring on both spawning materials


 What are the spawning materials?Ps... If my hypothesis is wrong don't poke fun&#8230;


> I guess your not going to tell us your hypothesis?
> 
> Can i buy some of the fry?


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## serrasalmus_collector

I will post pics off all my fry to verify my spawns&#8230; I can't give an answer to selling any yet&#8230; I am trying to make arrangement for acquiring 4-6 Geryi... I am very anxious to experiment with spawning them&#8230;But If I do sell it will be dirt cheap... I'm not in it for money&#8230; $2-$3 an inch sounds real fair to me. I have become obsessed with breeding as many species as I can&#8230;
Looks like I got my next 2 years all lined up&#8230; Yippee&#8230; Got Cariba&#8230; Piraya, and soon Geryi&#8230;.I'm hoping to be the first to breed Piraya and Geryi&#8230; I am thinking there may be tremendous similarities in Geryi and Spilo&#8230;. But who knows&#8230; The may have diversified parameters too induced spawning&#8230;
I am really glad I found this site&#8230; I have found and met the coolest piranha collectors, breeders, and distributors&#8230; I will keep you posted of most of my findings&#8230; And always pics from me of my breeding colonies, and fry&#8230;.The rest will be in my book&#8230;.

PS... Thanks for advice on the Scientific Method Frank, and Jim&#8230; Now I do document and monitor everything in my spawning tank&#8230;.I may even add barometric pressure conditions to my data base to&#8230;


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## Guest

damn, so we have to wait for your book


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## 94NDTA

$2-$3? for gold spilos? Do you ship, if not where are you located, and when would you be willing to sell?


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## Winkyee

Hello, 
I gotta see your set ups.
I can't wait.


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## serrasalmus_collector

Looks like my hypothesis is off.. I don’t think they will Spawn Saturday… But I got a female loaded with eggs… You can see the bulge.


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## Guest

> Looks like my hypothesis is off


 tell it to us anyway?


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## InSinUAsian

So many questions, and yet, SO LITTLE answers. Where are te details? Where are the pics? It seems to me that one that was successfully doing something others have not, would provide more supporting evidence.

Why so secretive?

~Dj


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## mtx1

still no pics?


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## v4p0r

Update?


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## Grosse Gurke

InSinUAsian said:


> It seems to me that one that was successfully doing something others have not, would provide more supporting evidence.
> 
> Why so secretive?
> 
> ~Dj


 What is so special about breeding spilos? it has been done many times before. Piranhnut has bred spilos and spilo cf and he is not claiming some super water current hypothesis. However, if someone had given me the info needed to breed rare piranhas...first I would give them the credit and not act like I was preforming gods work and second I would not be spreading it around to everyone.


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## serrasalmus_collector

> First I would give them the credit and not act like I was performing gods work and second I would not be spreading it around to everyone.
> Gross Qurke


 Well no one has told my how to breed golds&#8230; The only advice I got about breeding piranhas was to document everything I did and share it with others&#8230; I never said I was doing gods work&#8230; I have got golds to breed 5 times now&#8230; I have been putting all my parameters into a data base so I can determine the least amount factors required to produce a predictable spawning period&#8230; I thought I had discovered a pattern with my fish&#8230; I did say I wanted to publish a book on breeding piranhas&#8230; The sole purpose I collect my fish is to learn how to breed them and share my findings with others&#8230; To keep knowledge to yourself stagnates growth in the field in question&#8230; If you did read my postings I constantly asked others to experiment and let me know there findings&#8230; I want to explore breeding many species of piranhas&#8230; I just got a Geryi shoal I am eager to experiment with&#8230; I can't believe you come to a forum and not expect people to share there experiences&#8230; I thought that was the whole propose&#8230; If everyone kept everything secretive, you wouldn't even be able to identify fish&#8230; You must open your mind and look to the future&#8230; I will continue to post my findings&#8230; If I am successful with Cariba and Geryi I will post what I did there to&#8230; There are a few things I do in the beginning I am saving for my book&#8230;
Let's take your belief to the extreme&#8230; If you don't want to spread you discoveries with piranhas with others... Just sit in your home and stare @ you're fish and see how far you get&#8230;


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## Grosse Gurke

> Well no one has told my how to breed golds&#8230; The only advice I got about breeding piranhas was to document everything I did and share it with others&#8230;





> There are a few things I do in the beginning I am saving for my book&#8230;





> I did say I wanted to publish a book on breeding piranhas&#8230; The sole purpose I collect my fish is to learn how to breed them and share my findings with others&#8230;


Interesting contradiction there. How can you be sharing everything yet saving some things for you book, and if you really wanted everyone to have the knowledge...why write a book and not just post it here?



> To keep knowledge to yourself stagnates growth in the field in question&#8230; If you did read my postings I constantly asked others to experiment and let me know there findings&#8230;


Exactly what I was refering too when I said credit should be given. But you also said you have recieved no information other than "spread the word".



> I want to explore breeding many species of piranhas&#8230; I just got a Geryi shoal I am eager to experiment with&#8230;


I have one also and they are a great fish...I just chose to keep them and not experiment with them as I am a hobbiest and not a professor.



> I can't believe you come to a forum and not expect people to share there experiences&#8230; I thought that was the whole propose&#8230; If everyone kept everything secretive, you wouldn't even be able to identify fish&#8230;


If your refering to my quote that I would keep the information to my self, I was refering to information I recieved from people that breed these fish for a living. I think of it as a matter of respect.



> You must open your mind and look to the future&#8230;














> I will continue to post my findings&#8230; If I am successful with Cariba and Geryi I will post what I did there to&#8230;


Have you posted your data and I just missed it? I have been reading this thread and I am seeing a lot of self patting on the back, but not much data to go along with it....or am i missing something.



> Let's take your belief to the extreme&#8230; If you don't want to spread you discoveries with piranhas with others... Just sit in your home and stare @ you're fish and see how far you get&#8230;


hmmmmm........
Help fellow hobbiest out, now that is a new idea.....I will try that, thanks for the insight...


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## serrasalmus_collector

* Fine Qurke*&#8230; 
I will just post my pics of my shoals and fry when I have success in breeding&#8230; If anyone asks for questions I will tell them to Email me&#8230; Or you think its best I save it for my book&#8230;
I really think it's wrong to keep these things to yourself&#8230; preserving the rights of breeders????? Sounds like prostitution and breeders are pimps&#8230; How can one make money off fish having sex, and keep it secretive???? Sounds like a crime to do it to people but fine with animals&#8230; What a paradox&#8230;. These breeders are the same people who sell the rare piranha for hundreds of dollars&#8230; Oppss my bad that the wholesaler&#8230; I think anyone who desires the knowledge to breed piranhas should have it&#8230;By many people having the means and knowledge to breed several species of piranha, and then the rare once can be breed&#8230;.But that's just my opinion&#8230; I will have success with the Cariba and Geryi&#8230; Then my book will come&#8230; I think hoarding knowledge leads to ignorance&#8230;. But once again... That's my belief...


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## Grosse Gurke

serrasalmus_collector said:


> * Fine Qurke*&#8230;
> I will just post my pics of my shoals and fry when I have success in breeding&#8230; If anyone asks for questions I will tell them to Email me&#8230; Or you think its best I save it for my book&#8230;
> I really think it's wrong to keep these things to yourself&#8230; preserving the rights of breeders????? Sounds like prostitution and breeders are pimps&#8230; How can one make money off fish having sex, and keep it secretive???? Sounds like a crime to do it to people but fine with animals&#8230; What a paradox&#8230;. These breeders are the same people who sell the rare piranha for hundreds of dollars&#8230; Oppss my bad that the wholesaler&#8230; I think anyone who desires the knowledge to breed piranhas should have it&#8230;By many people having the means and knowledge to breed several species of piranha, and then the rare once can be breed&#8230;.But that's just my opinion&#8230; I will have success with the Cariba and Geryi&#8230; Then my book will come&#8230; I think hoarding knowledge leads to ignorance&#8230;. But once again... That's my belief...


Qurke.....you making fun of me...









Hey man, do what you want. 
Im just telling you what I get from this thread and that is a lot of talk about sharing information and not a lot of sharing. I could be wrong and this thread has provided the information many need to breed spilos.
My only other point is that you keep talking about sharing information and that people should not profit from the breeding of these fish...but then in the next sentence you are talking about this book you will be writing......are you planning on giving it away and the royalties from sales?
Like I said in the begining...Do what you want, it makes no difference to me. :smile:


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## Guest

youve been keeping it a secrete. I emailed you more then once and never got a response on tips or suggestions, or what youve been doing, your water hypothesis, what your using as spawning aids, anything. I think it would be better if you post what youve been doing and everything, then me and others can try it on there tanks and if it causes some peoples piranhas to breed, then you have alot better chance that your hypothesis and everything is right. And if you think your wrong, then tell us anyway?


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## Hehehe I just

are you seriously making a book?


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## Pacficco

I PMed asking alot of questions also....please respond serrasalmus_collector.


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## Xenon

I know people that have tried to see this in person and have gotten the cold shoulder....until I see some concrete proof besides a few grainy pictures of unidentifiable fry I am not convinced.


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## serrasalmus_collector

I asked what proof you want... I will give you pics of my fry tomorrow... I got about 600 big enough to tell they aren't reds... And I got nine that are really huge already eating fish 2X's there size as a shoal....THere are a few people here that know I don't own reds any more... JUst one 11 incher I can't give away....


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## serrasalmus_collector

* Wow Xeon&#8230; *
I really don't understand you&#8230; Why would I take the time to borrow a digital cam and take pictures of my shoal and fry on 2 different breeding occasions if they weren't Gold spilos???? How do you think I got a shoal of Cariba and Geryi&#8230;? I am very excited about the Spawning of golds... That's why I posted&#8230; I took actual pics, and sent them on my break time @ work&#8230; 
But there is a certain person Winky I believe&#8230; I am making arrangements for him to visit... and I will give him 10 baby golds&#8230;(For free&#8230; I'm not in it for money&#8230; I want to master breeding, and make a book for the hobbiest.) Hope that's will assure you I'm no liar&#8230;. I just can't believe you would not believe me&#8230; I took extra time to clean up and post the pics as they progressed&#8230; But by Monday you will know beyond a shadow of a doubt&#8230;
There is also another group of Piranha collectors in Sarnia Ontario, not affiliated with your board&#8230; I am actually helping them breed some of there piranha&#8230;. The only time I got people to want to stop by was for the Labor Day Weekend&#8230; Sorry I work a lot and had my free-time scheduled&#8230; I spend at least 4 hours a day working with my piranha&#8230; I needed some true leisure time&#8230;
I will be setting my Geryi up to experiment with this Weekend to&#8230; Maybe you can stop being a disbeliever and give me some advice&#8230; I got a problem in one of my piranha tank&#8230; SNAILS!!! And tens of thousands of them&#8230; How can I eradicate them&#8230;? Or will I have to tear down the entire tank&#8230;


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## mantis

are they in the fry tank? leave em


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## serrasalmus_collector

No they are in my 120 gallon... I really don't know how to get rid of them other than tear the entire tank down clean it, and re-set up... I would really appreciate any help.. I have heard clown loaches, but I think my piranha will kill them


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## Death in #'s

serrasalmus_collector said:


> No they are in my 120 gallon... I really don't know how to get rid of them other than tear the entire tank down clean it, and re-set up... I would really appreciate any help.. I have heard clown loaches, but I think my piranha will kill them


 clown loaches will be a meal for your p's but will do some cleaning first








you can also put a slices of apples on the gravel and when the snails all try to eat the slices just remove the slices with snails all over it


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## Grosse Gurke

Listen, I dont think anyone is questioning whether you have bred spilos or not....it is not that large of an accomplishment for people to care one way or the other, but what people are complaining about is that you keep saying you want to help advance the hobby, share all your wonderful knowledge, but you wont say sh*t about your methods of breeding. So you bred gold spilos.....Great, Wonderful, but it has been done many many times. 
If you really want to do as you say and spread all this knowledge........*POST YOUR METHOD FROM START TO FINISH!!!!!!!!*
A step by step guide, now that would help quash some of this anamosity.
I could care less because I dont want to breed spilos or any other fish for that matter, but you keep talking about it...so why not do it.


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## hastatus

As a side note, enjoy Breeding S. spilopleura by Ledecky.


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## wrathofgeo

i dont know about apples, wouldnt they bring down your pH?

use cucumbers


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## Death in #'s

wrathofgeo said:


> i dont know about apples, wouldnt they bring down your pH?
> 
> use cucumbers










thats right it is cucumbers i was wrong sorry


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## Dave~X

you are lucky as hell!!


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## fishbandit

Xenon said:


> I know people that have tried to see this in person and have gotten the cold shoulder....until I see some concrete proof besides a few grainy pictures of unidentifiable fry I am not convinced.


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## serrasalmus_collector

*Well I truly think this topic should be closed&#8230; *

I have spawned golds successfully 5 times in the past 3 months&#8230; My fish are now enjoying a winter simulation in the home aquarium&#8230; I have had people from this board see my fish; they just decide not to comment&#8230; You have freedom of beliefs to believe what you want... I truly don't care&#8230;
I have moved on to the Serrasalmus Geryi species and hope I can have success&#8230; If I do, and breed Cariba then I will work on getting my book published&#8230;
Ironically I surmise all you none believers will be buying my book&#8230; But I really don't care about that @ all&#8230;My piranha spawning methods also work with Discus, and probably a variety of South American fish I know nothing about&#8230; So there will be others interested in my finding&#8230;..I posted pics and gave comments to every post&#8230; Now just like my spawning Golds, *this topic can chill on my input&#8230;*


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## Guest

so your not going to tell us what to do to try to breed are golds or reds?


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## Hehehe I just

i would like to know!


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## Xenon

serrasalmus_collector said:


> in the home aquarium&#8230; I have had people from this board see my fish; they just decide not to comment&#8230;


 who? I know for a fact you have been unable to fulfill Winkyees request....

And the name is Xenon...please.


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## hastatus

> Xenon Posted on Sep 10 2003, 03:01 AM
> QUOTE (serrasalmus_collector @ Sep 9 2003, 04:06 PM)
> in the home aquarium&#8230; I have had people from this board see my fish; they just decide not to comment&#8230;
> 
> who? I know for a fact you have been unable to fulfill Winkyees request....
> 
> And the name is Xenon...please.


 Did you forget your name?


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## Trillyen

wow great pics buddy congrats, what size tank u got?


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## InSinUAsian

This is getting amuseing.

~Dj


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## Petzl88

What is the update Dr. Fish Breeder?


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## tweaked

Yes... any updates being that you don't return simple PM questions not related to the actual process?


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## X-D-X

you are the bomb!!


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## mmmike247

plan to sell!!! its all good. but nice!! keep it up


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## Winkyee

serrasalmus collector
Well, I cleared this weekend with you as being fine over a week and a half ago to come check your set-ups out. Even Friday morning you cleared everything .
*I will not waste anymore of my time trying to hook up with you...*
*Credibility is something you build, it's not automatic. *

After you still said everything was cool for today on Friday morning,
You've once again been unavailable....

pete


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## serrasalmus_collector

I thought we were suppose to meet Today!!!!

*SATURDAY 9-20-2003*


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## Winkyee

We're home from Hockey.


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## Winkyee

Well,
I just got back from serrasalmus_collector's place and I'm impressed....
He met us at a store near his house after calling him . We followed him to his house and got some great pics of his set ups and talked a few hours .










A very nice guy doing some interesting things ...
As he's posted here , He's trying other species and I think he might hit it again.
Pete








Strangers are only friends you haven't met yet.


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## hastatus

I believe based on Winkyee's assessment, we should give Serrasalmus_Collector the benefit of the doubt in his attempts to breed piranas. Perhaps his methods of communicating on the internet (or this forum) is not the best, but then who is perfect. So lets give him another chance without so much "anger" replies.


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## Hehehe I just

i'm tired of this thread.


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## Winkyee

Hehehe I just said:


> i'm tired of this thread.


 Stop reading it


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## wrathofgeo

i have seen the pics of the 100's of baby spilos from winkyee. wow, lots of babies, and they are spilos! very cool!


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## NIKE

wow i just seen pics of your holding tanks and congrats you have some nice size batches, great stuff







i was wondering if you could possible take a fry out and snap a close up shot of him on the table or in hand, so i could get a good look at them close up. i would like to compare them to my rbp fry pics to see the similarity's if there are any. if you don't want to pull one out alive, you could also wait for a dead one that would do. thanks in advance and once again congrats


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## serrasalmus_collector

Wow. Innes has made me look back into my past. When I 1st came here I was greeted as a mockery. Many people may wonder why I am so quick to argue? This thread kind of sums it all up. I explained breeding fish, posted pics of my babies. I got comments such as. "A few grainy pictures of un identifiable fish. I'm not convinced."

This also goes out to Winkyee. It kind of validates why my Maculatus were in cold water. I believe this was the weekend you came to visit. Hopefully it will explain why there is nothing on my spiloCF's in the beginning. It was a failure, just as the gold and red mixed colony. With way you guys treated me as a new comer, it just wasn't worth discussing. When I look to my treatment in the pass I become very bitter. When did a forum be about "Until someone from here goes to your house we won't believe you" I was told by a very good piranha breeder "If you can raise up 25 fry to a sellable size then you bred the species" This has not happed with the SpiloCF, or the Red Spilo mix. There are pics on this forum of both colonies, just not the babies. Perhaps my definition in triggering spawning behavior and breeding are not the same as everyone else's. It isn't uncommon for phases generated by words, to convey different meanings to different people

You guys constantly screen my every word, and put my statements under cross examination. Why??? This is a public forum where we all share experiences. Why am I the only one that is repeatably challenged?

I have gone to my agreement of not discussing breeding with members here any more. It appears once I started that, you admins dig up breeding stuff. I am no longer having access to the Team Fury message board. But I'm sure all the admins remember when I was told not to discuss breeding here. We don't need it. Can I just be a regular member, or will you please delete my account along with all my pics, and threads. I don't want to argue any more. I just want to post pics, and discuss the actions of my private piranha collection. I think most people will agree the actions of my piranha and pics I post is worthy of a membership. You all know I am an admin elsewhere, so that's no big deal.
I still have the honor he being helpful to people wanting to breed other than captive breed.


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## HighOctane

Would someone mind sending a few pics of the fry to me? Winkyee? Nike? wrathofgeo? Please send them viz PM if you can. Thanks


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## Innes

serrasalmus_collector said:


> Wow. Innes has made me look back into my past. When I 1st came here I was greeted as a mockery. Many people may wonder why I am so quick to argue? This thread kind of sums it all up. I explained breeding fish, posted pics of my babies. I got comments such as. "A few grainy pictures of un identifiable fish. I'm not convinced."
> 
> This also goes out to Winkyee. It kind of validates why my Maculatus were in cold water. I believe this was the weekend you came to visit. Hopefully it will explain why there is nothing on my spiloCF's in the beginning. It was a failure, just as the gold and red mixed colony. With way you guys treated me as a new comer, it just wasn't worth discussing. When I look to my treatment in the pass I become very bitter. When did a forum be about "Until someone from here goes to your house we won't believe you" I was told by a very good piranha breeder "If you can raise up 25 fry to a sellable size then you bred the species" This has not happed with the SpiloCF, or the Red Spilo mix. There are pics on this forum of both colonies, just not the babies.  Perhaps my definition in triggering spawning behavior and breeding are not the same as everyone else's. It isn't uncommon for phases generated by words, to convey different meanings to different people
> 
> You guys constantly screen my every word, and put my statements under cross examination. Why??? This is a public forum where we all share experiences. Why am I the only one that is repeatably challenged?
> 
> I have gone to my agreement of not discussing breeding with members here any more. It appears once I started that, you admins dig up breeding stuff. I am no longer having access to the Team Fury message board. But I'm sure all the admins remember when I was told not to discuss breeding here. We don't need it. Can I just be a regular member, or will you please delete my account along with all my pics, and threads. I don't want to argue any more. I just want to post pics, and discuss the actions of my private piranha collection. I think most people will agree the actions of my piranha and pics I post is worthy of a membership. You all know I am an admin elsewhere, so that's no big deal.
> I still have the honor he being helpful to people wanting to breed other than captive breed.


 lol SC I got nothing against you, but I think the reason people question your posts is you often offer advise which is at best risky like mixing serras, not only this, but you make it sound like it will work every time.

also where did my last post go?


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## serrasalmus_collector

Are you guys actually reading and comprehending my post. I was just curious to what species of serrasalmus have been kept together by members here. Posting a pic validated it. I just wanted to discuss how the fish interacted and possibly water condition. My post never told any one you can shoal this. I did end all my statements "*It works for me in my home aquarium*". You are really seeing what wasn't posted. What was the title of the post. Perhaps because someone started a 2 day argument over the word *shoal* is where this mis-conception started. Telling people to go out, and buy this fish because it's shoals was not every uttered from my mouth. I wish you guys would stop posting that's what I am saying. If there is confusion with how I convey my messages, there is IM. I can edit posts again

*I was curious and inquiring what people had done. That is it!!!!!*


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## ALLIGATORMEX

nice work collector let those none belivers walk away.. they will never know lmao... i still keep some babys from my spilo cf pair i lost alot becaus e the water parameters and water conditions....... i still keep the female and i already put her with 3 other spilos cf to see if i can get again the pair.. one of those its extremely agressive.. so i mixed some natts and caribes to chill out.. they are doing fine.. while i just noticed i got again a opair of natts and im waiting for the fry

take care dude


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## hastatus

This topic has served its purpose.


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