# Finally saw my first Tern!



## robert69 (Jul 16, 2005)

Merry Xmas to all! Just got back from Vegas. Visited the Shark Reef at Mandalay Bay yesterday. I headed straight for the Piranha tank because I heard it was awesome. I was a little disappointed, but finally saw my first Tern. I have seen just about every breed of Piranha over the years, except the Tern. I saw two of them in the tank fighting with each other. Just thought I'd post that. Anyone else been to the Shark Reef at Mandalay and visited the Piranha tank?


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## starbury (Jan 30, 2006)

robert69 said:


> Merry Xmas to all! Just got back from Vegas. Visited the Shark Reef at Mandalay Bay yesterday. I headed straight for the Piranha tank because I heard it was awesome. I was a little disappointed, but finally saw my first Tern. I have seen just about every breed of Piranha over the years, except the Tern. I saw two of them in the tank fighting with each other. Just thought I'd post that. Anyone else been to the Shark Reef at Mandalay and visited the Piranha tank?


if you have seen a nat before then you have seen a tern before same fish just different location


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

starbury said:


> Merry Xmas to all! Just got back from Vegas. Visited the Shark Reef at Mandalay Bay yesterday. I headed straight for the Piranha tank because I heard it was awesome. I was a little disappointed, but finally saw my first Tern. I have seen just about every breed of Piranha over the years, except the Tern. I saw two of them in the tank fighting with each other. Just thought I'd post that. Anyone else been to the Shark Reef at Mandalay and visited the Piranha tank?


if you have seen a nat before then you have seen a tern before same fish just different location
[/quote]

Ah yes, the same........ but _different_ daniel-san!


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## robert69 (Jul 16, 2005)

The Tern looked noticeably different, less Red coloring of course. I could tell right away it was a Tern vs. the other P's....


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## CorGravey (Feb 13, 2007)

Terns can grow HUGE way huger than reds fools

You say you have seen most of like (somewhere around) 60 types of piranha ExCEPT terns? Sounds a little wierd, please give me more details.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

CorGrav420 said:


> Terns can grow HUGE way huger than reds fools
> 
> You say you have seen most of like (somewhere around) 60 types of piranha ExCEPT terns? Sounds a little wierd, please give me more details.


Did somebody take a sh*t in your wheaties man?


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## robert69 (Jul 16, 2005)

Ok, maybe I haven't seen all 60. I wasn't even aware there were that many. What I should have said was I have seen Caribes, Reds, Pirayas, Rhoms, etc.. Does that clarify for you?


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## Nevermind (Aug 16, 2007)

CorGrav420 said:


> Terns can grow HUGE way huger than reds fools
> 
> You say you have seen most of like (somewhere around) 60 types of piranha ExCEPT terns? Sounds a little wierd, please give me more details.


The only _true_ piranhas are that of the genus Pygocentrus, no? In which case there are only 3 true species of piranha (natts, caribe and piraya), as fish in the genus Serrasalmus are not considered true piranhas.


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## J-Lo (Feb 2, 2006)

ternetzi and reds are not the same breed. Ive never seen a group of reds tear up a piraya before but witnessed it with my nasty pack of terns.


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## ICEE (Feb 3, 2007)

ternezti and rbp are different.. terns grow larger


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## Nevermind (Aug 16, 2007)

Terns=Natts. "In 1997, Fink and Zelditch reviewed the description and all available citations pertaining to S. ternetzi. They could not find reliable characters to distinguish between the two, and consider S. ternetzi as a nonlinear cline (varying body shape) of P. nattereri. "


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

Nevermind said:


> Terns can grow HUGE way huger than reds fools
> 
> You say you have seen most of like (somewhere around) 60 types of piranha ExCEPT terns? Sounds a little wierd, please give me more details.


The only _true_ piranhas are that of the genus Pygocentrus, no? In which case there are only 3 true species of piranha (natts, caribe and piraya), as fish in the genus Serrasalmus are not considered true piranhas.
[/quote]

Exactly.
This is a little known fact, even among hobbiests.
Fish belonging to the Serrasalmus genus are not true piranhas.

Ternetzi is a variant of _natterreri._

Life is broken down into the following categories:

Kingdom
Phylum
Class
Order 
Family 
Genus 
Species

(We always remembered it by thinking: "*K*eep *P*ortland *C*lean *O*f *F*ilthy *G*reen *S*cum."

After "Species" there is "Subspecies" or "Variant."
Like **** sapians, aka "Humans."

Asians, Africans, Europeans... they're all "Variants" of "Humans."
Africans are darker, Asians are typically smaller, Europeans usually have bigger noses (just kidding) and so forth.

That's why earlier in this thread, I said "They are the same, and different."
Kinda like Europeans are the same as Africans, and different.


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## starbury (Jan 30, 2006)

ICEE said:


> ternezti and rbp are different.. terns grow larger


yea so do different types of rhoms but their still rhoms. like a peru rhom and a vinny rhom are different shape and size but there still rhoms just different location same as a natt in brazil and a natt in paurguy which people think is a tern


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## Dezboy (Apr 2, 2006)

Nevermind said:


> Terns can grow HUGE way huger than reds fools
> 
> You say you have seen most of like (somewhere around) 60 types of piranha ExCEPT terns? Sounds a little wierd, please give me more details.


The only _true_ piranhas are that of the genus Pygocentrus, no? In which case there are only 3 true species of piranha (natts, caribe and piraya), as fish in the genus Serrasalmus are not considered true piranhas.
[/quote]


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## Nevermind (Aug 16, 2007)

MonkeyBum said:


> Terns can grow HUGE way huger than reds fools
> 
> You say you have seen most of like (somewhere around) 60 types of piranha ExCEPT terns? Sounds a little wierd, please give me more details.


The only _true_ piranhas are that of the genus Pygocentrus, no? In which case there are only 3 true species of piranha (natts, caribe and piraya), as fish in the genus Serrasalmus are not considered true piranhas.
[/quote]






















[/quote]

Pretty good for someone who has only been in the hobby a little over a year, and not very long on this site either, huh? It actually sounds like i know what im talkin about :laugh:


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

starbury said:


> if you have seen a nat before then you have seen a tern before same fish just different location


hahaha....lol......good post

NOW....go buy 10 terns (5 green, 5 yellow), and buy 10 wild reds....as many differant localities as you want. All 10 can be from differant spots for all I care. Then, grow & study these fish for 6 months to a year.....then tell me that they are the same. Personaly, I think they are worthy of being thier own species. That sub species of a Nattereri crap is hoggwash....I call BULLSH!T!


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Leasure1 said:


> if you have seen a nat before then you have seen a tern before same fish just different location


hahaha....lol......good post

NOW....go buy 10 terns (5 green, 5 yellow), and buy 10 wild reds....as many differant localities as you want. All 10 can be from differant spots for all I care. Then, grow & study these fish for 6 months to a year.....then tell me that they are the same. Personaly, I think they are worthy of being thier own species. That sub species of a Nattereri crap is hoggwash....I call BULLSH!T!
[/quote]
No thanks, i'll stick to science's point of view :rasp:


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

Leasure1 said:


> if you have seen a nat before then you have seen a tern before same fish just different location


hahaha....lol......good post

NOW....go buy 10 terns (5 green, 5 yellow), and buy 10 wild reds....as many differant localities as you want. All 10 can be from differant spots for all I care. Then, grow & study these fish for 6 months to a year.....then tell me that they are the same. Personaly, I think they are worthy of being thier own species. That sub species of a Nattereri crap is hoggwash....I call BULLSH!T!
[/quote]

Yeah?
I call "Bullshit" on your "Bullshit!"


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## eiji (Sep 16, 2006)

Leasure1 said:


> if you have seen a nat before then you have seen a tern before same fish just different location


hahaha....lol......good post

NOW....go buy 10 terns (5 green, 5 yellow), and buy 10 wild reds....as many differant localities as you want. All 10 can be from differant spots for all I care. Then, grow & study these fish for 6 months to a year.....then tell me that they are the same. Personaly, I think they are worthy of being thier own species. That sub species of a Nattereri crap is hoggwash....I call BULLSH!T!
[/quote]


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

belive what you want....all I know is that they are COMPLETELY differant.

Someone please point out what is the differance between a cariba and a red then. I mean, everything is the same, yet they are considered a differant species while terns are not. Cariba have a humeral spot, eveything else is practicly the same other than they grow differant, act differant, etc. Why can this not be the same with terns? I GUESS I JUST DON"T UNDERSTAND! I want to see a genetics chart or something telling me they are identical to reds, but cariba and piraya are not.


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## starbury (Jan 30, 2006)

Leasure1 said:


> belive what you want....all I know is that they are COMPLETELY differant.
> 
> Someone please point out what is the differance between a cariba and a red then. I mean, everything is the same, yet they are considered a differant species while terns are not. Cariba have a humeral spot, eveything else is practicly the same other than they grow differant, act differant, etc. Why can this not be the same with terns? I GUESS I JUST DON"T UNDERSTAND! I want to see a genetics chart or something telling me they are identical to reds, but cariba and piraya are not.


wo dude there just fish but if you think they are different the natts no ones going to stop you from thinking that and i agree i have 2 yellow natts and they are f*cking crazy eat like no red i have ever seen but science says their natts so who can disagree wit that


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

wo dude.....why does everyone freak out when I type? Does everything I say come off as if I am yelling it? Cuz I type with a smile all the time!

All I am saying is, I want to see what is special about cariba and piraya that make then thier own species, that the tern is lacking preventing it from being it's own species. What is differant geneticly? All localities/ color variants/ etc/etc aside.<<< because evidently those things don't matter...correct? I am going to start back at square one so that I can be on the same page you guys all seem to be on. You can "re-teach me" if you will. Not that I disagree in the least bit as far as science is concerned, I just plain don't understand. You don't have to copy and paste articals from OPEFE (and frank, you can call me a retard all you want), but that is where I get lost. Save the big words strung together for someone who understands them....lol. I just want to hear it in the most ******* terms you can put it in...plain, and simple....lol


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## Nevermind (Aug 16, 2007)

This is from OPEFE, but i think this is about as plain and simple as it gets

"Hobbyist use vague terms when trying to compare their piranhas, such as; behavior, temperament, mood, etc., etc,. etc. They forget their fish is living in an unnatural environment which is the aquarium, so the behavior there is dictated by how the hobbyist provides the fishes living conditions."

Using some of the previous logic in this thread, i could go thru a group of natts and pick the most vicious one, and say it is a different species because it is more vicious.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

a tern could equal a nat and be the same species

there are multiple versions of humans to you know
white people, black people, middle eastern, asian
they all come from different areas and over the years have evolved differently

in africa there are also two different tribes one full of pygmy people (small) and the other of only watisu people (tall) are these people still **** sapiens right? ya

so just becasue a tern is a different colour and could grow larger it doesnt make it a compleatly different species

attitude cant be used to justify them as different species, they could possibly be but in an un natural enviroment they cant be compared for example:
if you put 20 people in two rooms (10 per room) then:
one room getts an all you can eat buffet and the other get a chiken thrown in once a week
come back in a couple years then the one room will be more agressive to survive an the other room wont be since they always had food and whats the bottom line? there still human dispite one group being more agressive


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

okay....I have always....and will always understand EVERYTHING that has been said in this entire thread, and every thread like this one. I realize the whole human metaphore, etc etc.

*Back to my REAL question. What geneticly makes cariba and piraya diffearnt species?*


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Leasure1 said:


> okay....I have always....and will always understand EVERYTHING that has been said in this entire thread, and every thread like this one. I realize the whole human metaphore, etc etc.
> 
> *Back to my REAL question. What geneticly makes cariba and piraya diffearnt species?*


Wrong forum. Need to ask in the P-Science forum, however Piraya do have a rayed adipose fin which cariba do not.


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## Doktordet (Sep 22, 2006)

Dr. Giggles said:


> okay....I have always....and will always understand EVERYTHING that has been said in this entire thread, and every thread like this one. I realize the whole human metaphore, etc etc.
> 
> *Back to my REAL question. What geneticly makes cariba and piraya diffearnt species?*


Wrong forum. Need to ask in the P-Science forum, however *Piraya do have a rayed adipose fin which cariba do not*.
[/quote]

I dont think I completely agree on this one. People have always said that distinguishing a piraya from other pygos is that its got a "rayed" adipose fin. Look, I have all pygo species in my tank. And all of them are more than 7 inches. All of them have rays in their adipose fins.


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## robert69 (Jul 16, 2005)

This is a trip! When I started this thread, I had no idea it would evolve into this discussion. I originally posted the thread just to state my excitement at finally seeing a Tern at the Mandalay Bay Shark Reef haha! Hope everyone stays cool and calm. Anyone else visited the Mandalay Bay Shark Reef and see the Piranha tank?


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## Uncle Jesse (Feb 18, 2007)

i just went there that place blows hard core!!!!! lol pet station has way better set up and its free to get in lol i took a ton of pics when i make them smaller ill post them

ill give them a little tho they did hav like two sanchezis in with the pygos and all had no fin nips 
when i asked the girl what they feed them all she could tell me was steak lol


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

So funny to see that with all the work they put into the sign they didn't even get the information correct.

First of all, they try to confuse everybody by calling the scientific name of the Red Belly Piranha both Pygocentrus natterreri and Pygocentrus ternetzi (which they didn't even spell "natterreri" right...)

Then, because the cariba has a humeral spot they're calling it the "Black Spot Piranha" and then using the very obsolete scientific name "Serrasalmus notatus."About the closest they got to accurate was to call the "Black Piranha" the "Serrasalmus rhombeus."

I wonder why even museums and full-on aquariums can't even get the sh*t right.We can put men on the moon, we can build and launch sattelites that orbit alien planets...But we can't name fish accurately.


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## tileguy8 (Aug 1, 2006)

yea ive been to vegas and saw the exhibit too


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## CorGravey (Feb 13, 2007)

Opefe is a great site with much info but i strongly disagree that a tern is the same as a reds belly, i also strongly disagree with a few of the other views on the site, i commend the folks at opefe for their research, but not enough has been done. Sure a black and white men are both human but are they the same???

There is a genetic difference between terns and natts, other than grographic location which makes them differ.

As far as this pygo the only tru piranha crap, PROVE IT. Who says whats a piranha. Funny thing this is piranha fury and most members keep serras lol


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

Dr. Giggles said:


> okay....I have always....and will always understand EVERYTHING that has been said in this entire thread, and every thread like this one. I realize the whole human metaphore, etc etc.
> 
> *Back to my REAL question. What geneticly makes cariba and piraya diffearnt species?*


Wrong forum. Need to ask in the P-Science forum, however *Piraya do have a rayed adipose fin which cariba do not.*[/quote]

Now.....you got any pics of these so called rayed adiposal fins? I too have every pygo, but the pirayas fins look no differant than any of the other pygos. Please link me to some pics where it shows these so called rayed fins.

and since cariba don't have the "fin".....what makes them differant from reds?...lol.

Everyone puts up such an arguement with me when I say a tern should not be considered a Natt, but when it comes time to PROVE me wrong, or even explain a few simple questions of mine, everyone tucks tail and runs and hides. You can provide nothing for me. Infact.....I think that none of you even know, you are just going by what you have heard, and since you heard it was science that said it, you keep repeating what you heard, because science is always right. I don't think so. Wasn't it one of those scientists that counted the rays on a fin, said to be 11 or so rays, to mearly find out that the fin was riped and damaged? What, the dude didn't pull more than one damn fish out of the water or what? You would think that when someone was trying to classify another species, they would use more than one subject to examine....lol.

again, for all the guys who seem to misunderstand my attitude while typing, I'm not mad, not angry, not pissed, not jumpy or pushy, ......but mearly trying to find out what the hell is going on here. Again, still no explianation.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

I guess somebody like Frank needs to post that the Serrasalmus genus are not true piranhas.

Like I said, it's a little known fact, even amongst piranhas keepers.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Leasure1 said:


> belive what you want....all I know is that they are COMPLETELY differant.
> 
> Someone please point out what is the differance between a cariba and a red then. I mean, everything is the same, yet they are considered a differant species while terns are not. Cariba have a humeral spot, eveything else is practicly the same other than they grow differant, act differant, etc. Why can this not be the same with terns? I GUESS I JUST DON"T UNDERSTAND! I want to see a genetics chart or something telling me they are identical to reds, but cariba and piraya are not.


I believe structural differences and DNA are the main factors in differentiating a species.
From OPEFE:


> Pygocentrus cariba is characterized by four *supraneurals and a prominent black humeral spot on the flank (FINK, 1993).
> *Supraneurals are small bones that are between the neural spines of the vertebrae, anterior of the dorsal fin.


Piraya have adipose fin rays....which neither cariba or nattereri have. Ternetzi and nattereri are not sufficiently different to be categorized as a different species. The description of humans is a good one...look at how much we vary...but we are all the same species.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Leasure1 said:


> again, for all the guys who seem to misunderstand my attitude while typing, I'm not mad, not angry, not pissed, not jumpy or pushy, ......but mearly trying to find out what the hell is going on here. Again, still no explianation.


Wow...I didnt even know there was a second page to this thread when I posted









My understanding is that there have been studies done.....including DNA....to establish if terns were a separate and distinct species from nattereri. There is a specific number of genetic differences that need to be met in order to classify them as a different species (I dont know what that is)....and the result was that ternetzi was not found to be significantly different from P. nattereri...and therefore can not be classified as a new species. That is why they are still classified as P. nattereri.


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

Thank you GG......that is exactly what I was looking for. So, yes, they are differant, like 1/2 way to being thier own species...lol. I get what you are saying. I mean, I know they differ, just didn't know there was a minimal number of genes that need to be differant to be considered a differant speies.

I own P. piraya, but don't see any differance in adiposal fins from any of the others. Is there any pics of this floating around? What exactly does rayed mean?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Leasure1 said:


> Thank you GG......that is exactly what I was looking for. So, yes, they are differant, like 1/2 way to being thier own species...lol. I get what you are saying. I mean, I know they differ, just didn't know there was a minimal number of genes that need to be differant to be considered a differant speies.


I dont know what the criteria is that needs to be met for a fish to become a distinct species. I believe each species has a standard for its anatomy and any new species needs to deviate a certain level from that standard. My understanding is that ternetzi didnt deviate enough from the standard nattereri to be considered a new species.


> I own P. piraya, but don't see any differance in adiposal fins from any of the others. Is there any pics of this floating around? What exactly does rayed mean?


I believe the rayed fin can be seen easier when they get older...like 10" or so. Rayed means it has small bones you can see in the fin.


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## Leasure1 (Jul 24, 2006)

Grosse Gurke said:


> Thank you GG......that is exactly what I was looking for. So, yes, they are differant, like 1/2 way to being thier own species...lol. I get what you are saying. I mean, I know they differ, just didn't know there was a minimal number of genes that need to be differant to be considered a differant speies.


I dont know what the criteria is that needs to be met for a fish to become a distinct species. I believe each species has a standard for its anatomy and any new species needs to deviate a certain level from that standard. My understanding is that ternetzi didnt deviate enough from the standard nattereri to be considered a new species.


> I own P. piraya, but don't see any differance in adiposal fins from any of the others. Is there any pics of this floating around? What exactly does rayed mean?


I believe the rayed fin can be seen easier when they get older...like 10" or so. *Rayed means it has small bones you can see in the fin.*[/quote]
Sort of like the dorsal fins on a crappie? they are sharp when you catch them, hand have to bend the fins back to remove them from a hook. I got ya. Totaly understand this now. Thank you GG


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