# ok i got it motorless filtration



## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

ok guys i have it from my recent 10 minute ago experiment

2 tub s again lets go over first that no matter what ///////the water pressure equals out to the same water level if 2 tubs are connected

same thing tub a has 400 gallons tub b holds 40 gallons they are conected via 2 pvc pipes the water in both is at a equal level

if i sipion water into tub b (filter) from tub a the water level will have to level itself right the only way for it to do that is the pvc pipes connecting the 2 tubs

a over flow box on the inside of tub a (the pond ) will sipion water to tub b the water levels will have to even out so the water will go through the pvc connecting the 2

sound good or what


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## Bawb2u (May 27, 2004)

pirayaman said:


> ok guys i have it from my recent 10 minute ago experiment
> 
> 2 tub s again lets go over first that no matter what ///////the water pressure equals out to the same water level if 2 tubs are connected
> 
> ...


I'll have to go with the *or what*.
A siphon is water being pulled by the force of gravity. For a siphon to work one of your tubs needs to be lower than the other one. 
There actually is a way to get water movement without a motor It's more complicated than what you're trying to do but it's still a pretty simple system. Interested?


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## XSPhoto (Sep 26, 2007)

definitely Or What... keep thinkin, though...


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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

You can use the same concept as the caterpillar drive used in The Hunt for Red October. I think it ran current through a superconducting solenoid that generated a magnetic field and polarized the water molecules and caused them to move through the center channel of the solenoid. The superconductor will have almost no resistance but it will cost you a ton of money to cool it with liquid nitrogen. It's similar to the Ionic Breaze air purifier and would be the most quiet thing out there.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

Bawb2u said:


> ok guys i have it from my recent 10 minute ago experiment
> 
> 2 tub s again lets go over first that no matter what ///////the water pressure equals out to the same water level if 2 tubs are connected
> 
> ...


I'll have to go with the *or what*.
A siphon is water being pulled by the force of gravity. For a siphon to work one of your tubs needs to be lower than the other one. 
There actually is a way to get water movement without a motor It's more complicated than what you're trying to do but it's still a pretty simple system. Interested?
[/quote]

YES YES AND MORE YES although if you dont tell me i will figure it out i have 3 diff test models to make today so we will see

shanker come one man thats electricity im looking for free filtration man


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)




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## NegativeSpin (Aug 1, 2007)

pirayaman said:


> ok guys i have it from my recent 10 minute ago experiment
> 
> 2 tub s again lets go over first that no matter what ///////the water pressure equals out to the same water level if 2 tubs are connected
> 
> ...


I'll have to go with the *or what*.
A siphon is water being pulled by the force of gravity. For a siphon to work one of your tubs needs to be lower than the other one. 
There actually is a way to get water movement without a motor It's more complicated than what you're trying to do but it's still a pretty simple system. Interested?
[/quote]

YES YES AND MORE YES although if you dont tell me i will figure it out i have 3 diff test models to make today so we will see

shanker come one man thats electricity im looking for free filtration man
[/quote]

For free filtration you'll have to put in a 40X20X10' pond in your yard and put plenty of plants in it and depend on EVAPOTRANPERATION as your means to move the water. Sunlight would be your energy source.... A mini-ecosystem.


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## Doktordet (Sep 22, 2006)

shanker said:


> For free filtration you'll have to put in a 40X20X10' pond in your yard and put plenty of plants in it and depend on EVAPOTRANPERATION as your means to move the water. Sunlight would be your energy source.... A mini-ecosystem.


like a bog filter right? (minus the water pump)


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

shanker said:


> ok guys i have it from my recent 10 minute ago experiment
> 
> 2 tub s again lets go over first that no matter what ///////the water pressure equals out to the same water level if 2 tubs are connected
> 
> ...


I'll have to go with the *or what*.
A siphon is water being pulled by the force of gravity. For a siphon to work one of your tubs needs to be lower than the other one. 
There actually is a way to get water movement without a motor It's more complicated than what you're trying to do but it's still a pretty simple system. Interested?
[/quote]

YES YES AND MORE YES although if you dont tell me i will figure it out i have 3 diff test models to make today so we will see

shanker come one man thats electricity im looking for free filtration man
[/quote]

For free filtration you'll have to put in a 40X20X10' pond in your yard and put plenty of plants in it and depend on EVAPOTRANPERATION as your means to move the water. Sunlight would be your energy source.... A mini-ecosystem.
[/quote]

shanker again thanks for the extremly usefull info not sure who its usefull for but whatever

look guys i am trying to come up with no motor filtration if anyone can help with a idea or a theroy thats great if not than go bug someone else


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

hahahahahh dum dum diddy i got it it will work simple as can be and will produce a whole lot of flow intresting part is i can make it for a tank as well

off to make a model hahahahahh


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## Bawb2u (May 27, 2004)

I'll give you two concepts to work with and one hint:

Concepts: Waterwheel or see-saw.

Hint: Overhead filter container.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

winkee thats preety cool video you posted

a washing machine has no pump uses spinning to push water up and over could be a option

oh by the way my previous attemps at wich i was sure would work DID NOT dammit

one of those air lift over flows may be the key to this maybe ill redesign my question

cheapest way to get larges amounts of water moving


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## Apott05 (Jul 19, 2005)

wouldnt it be easier to just buy a mag drive?


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## Bawb2u (May 27, 2004)

pirayaman said:


> winkee thats preety cool video you posted
> 
> *a washing machine has no pump uses spinning to push water up and over could be a option *
> 
> ...


What do you think causes the spinning motion? Um, that would be a MOTOR, which would kind of do away with your motorless filtration.

Oh yeah, before I forget, those air lift pumps? They use a motor too.

I already gave you two concepts that work with NO MOTOR. They are not space age perpetual motion machines, they are actually ancient designs that work with no motor and no need for electricity. The cheapest way to move large amounts of water is GRAVITY. You can harness it in many different ways and the human race has been doing it for millenia.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

yeah bawb its deff a good idea im just not in thew mood to build a big wheel with those little cups on the end and s--t boy would that be really serious in the basement hahahahah vicious

a plumber is what we need right now

how does well water get enough pressure without a motor to be desperced at your 3 floor sink

a toilet works a certain way with out electric but has a higher tank and a lower tank

no i say we must look to the water flow in a house for this awenser how does well water reach a 3rd floor sink with out a motor anybody please we are not done yet by a long shot


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## eddyhead (Nov 6, 2007)

pirayaman said:


> yeah bawb its deff a good idea im just not in thew mood to build a big wheel with those little cups on the end and s--t boy would that be reall serious in the basement hahahahah vicious
> 
> a plumber is what wen need right now
> 
> ...


agian i say im no expert but i think you could get the water out of your tank easily but getting back in part with out a motor...almost seems im possible.

For an example Water slides always go down...why? cause with out a motor you can not get water back up

I think that concept works for about every idead..you might be able water to go up a little but it has to have alot of velocity to overcome the gravity on its way back up.

I know some water dynamic majors, who currently work in the field of water dynamics and i will give them a call and ask if they can think of a way to do this...if they dont know (and all they know is water and its prperties) then i think we might be out of luck.

Im kepping my fingers crossed though


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

thank you eddy really you may be on to something there


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## eddyhead (Nov 6, 2007)

well he didnt answer... will try to get a hold of him 2maro


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

keep me posted hahaha well if he says it can be done and a discripion great

to tell you hte truth im burnt out on this one even a sipion on one end and a return sipion on the other end will probley not work

liquid sucks


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## eddyhead (Nov 6, 2007)

ok so i just got off the phone with him...and heres what he said....mainly he would have to see it all in front of him to really tell you. but fyi Velocity=Pressure x height x density (this is in fluid dynamics) which is basically your problem... your might be able to do it with the 400g tub and 40g tub but your biggest problem is getting the water back into the tank.. and the levels of your tank would have to be like an inch difference to have a low enough slope of return to the tank....but then your problem is that with your exit tub only being an inch lower you not going to get much presure to be able to in return create the pressure needed to get back into the tank...He thinks you might have something going witht the 2 different sizes of tanks....

Just as i was typing this i thought of somethine you havent talked about...and that would be sizes of pipes...we know that if you put your finger over the end of the hose it increases the pressure...im thinking maybe if you have a large tube (Tube A) pulling the water out and have a very small tube (Tube B) on the return you might be able to create enough pressure, because you got to get the amount of water from tube A through tube B in the same time might creat enough of pressure which would create greater velocity..that maybe you could get that over the hump and back into the tank...the only thing is that you would not get a very high GPH with this...im going to try to set this up also and see if i can creat it...on a smaller scale size.

I will keep you updated...you do the same


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

When you have 2 tanks the same height and tubing running between them , there will be no flow.When you have one tank higher than the other and are using an overflow you will overflow the lower tank with no way to return the water to the higher tank due to the height the water must be lifted.
There are a few ways to get flow going, convection is one, a heater inside or under the intake pipe of each outlet in each container will get some flow going as warm water rises(no motor running a pump but high wattage of heater will negate any cost reduction of not running a pump and in hot weather the heaters will not be running that often).
Another way that might be possible is to use airlift tubes with air stones at the bottom of them like old under gravel filters.(Wattage to run air pumps will be as much or greater than required to run a pump)
Either way there is not going to be much flow and its unlikely to provide any significant filtration due to the fact there will not be enough flow past filter media there will be many dead flow areas.
I'd recommend a wet/dry system for this tub for ease of setup and for effective filtration.


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## Ihavebigpiranha (Aug 19, 2004)

how does well water get enough pressure without a motor to be desperced at your 3 floor sink

there is a pump in the bottom of the well.

a toilet works a certain way with out electric but has a higher tank and a lower tank

a toilet works off gravity, the lower chamber holds water in a trap until the water in the tank is released and then overflows the trap and the water goes down the drain.


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## CichlidAddict (Jul 1, 2005)

There's no way to have water flow continuously between 2 tanks without some type of energy source (like a motor / pump).
If you can make it work then you're created perpetual motion which is impossible.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

CichlidAddict said:


> There's no way to have water flow continuously between 2 tanks without some type of energy source (like a motor / pump).
> If you can make it work then you're created perpetual motion which is impossible.


i belive you are right ca i have tryed every thing i could come up with and it all makes no sence at all

400 gallons wiht all that weight behind it should be able to push water through a 1 inch tube and up over back into the 400 gallons

the sipion works like a vacume // but reversing it is well // eggs // i have also found out that you cant sipion water from the same tank/// using a utube to even get cirulation /// that boggles me as well/// as you can get the suction to draw water above the water line to fill the tube /// but no flow will result bs

water displacement seems viable but i have not given that a shot yeah and most likly will come up with the same results kindas like pushing a ballon under water the water level will rise but


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## eddyhead (Nov 6, 2007)

CichlidAddict said:


> There's no way to have water flow continuously between 2 tanks without some type of energy source (like a motor / pump).
> If you can make it work then you're created perpetual motion which is impossible.


Granit this would in a way be perpetual motion...i still think there is a possibility here for this...like i said there will be not much flow...and yes there is no way to get water to run between 2 tanks with out a motor, im convinced on that but with 3 tanks i think you might have a way

the only reason that im not sure if this is perpetual motion because by definition perpetual motion is something that produces more engergy then put into...which is impossible due to Law of Engery Conservity (or what ever it is called) which says no energy can be *created* or *destroyed* were not trying to make something that makes more energy which would be immpossible but something that just contiounsly uses the same energy...which also is another part of the definition of perpetual motion...and this part is not impossible...were just not able to harness it yet without a perfect vacum...doesn't mean its not there...maybe there could be something with this?


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## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

this is an interesting discussion, a subject i have thought about a lot.
im a Plumbing systems engineer, and i have to tell you, it may be easier to just use a pump.

one problem is going to be that you can get a continuous flow through your tank, but once the water exits at a lower elevation, there is no more potential energy. You need kinetic energy to re-circulate the water.
you could try having photovoltaics to power a motor, i know this isnt motorless, but it is free energy.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

see water weill flow from tub a to tub b and to tub c to equal out pressure but once that happenes the sipion between tub a and tub b would be lost

maybe there is some type of one way valves that could be used i dont know i think its amight bit impossible after all the things i try ed

althought there is one more thing left to try and that is like i said before water displacement


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## CichlidAddict (Jul 1, 2005)

eddyhead said:


> There's no way to have water flow continuously between 2 tanks without some type of energy source (like a motor / pump).
> If you can make it work then you're created perpetual motion which is impossible.


Granit this would in a way be perpetual motion...i still think there is a possibility here for this...like i said there will be not much flow...and yes there is no way to get water to run between 2 tanks with out a motor, im convinced on that but with 3 tanks i think you might have a way

the only reason that im not sure if this is perpetual motion because by definition perpetual motion is something that produces more engergy then put into...which is impossible due to Law of Engery Conservity (or what ever it is called) which says no energy can be *created* or *destroyed* were not trying to make something that makes more energy which would be immpossible but something that just contiounsly uses the same energy...which also is another part of the definition of perpetual motion...and this part is not impossible...were just not able to harness it yet without a perfect vacum...doesn't mean its not there...maybe there could be something with this?
[/quote]
Yes, but the problem is friction. You can try to use gravity as your energy source (thus, the siphon) but you always have friction robbing the system of energy.


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## eddyhead (Nov 6, 2007)

CichlidAddict said:


> There's no way to have water flow continuously between 2 tanks without some type of energy source (like a motor / pump).
> If you can make it work then you're created perpetual motion which is impossible.


Granit this would in a way be perpetual motion...i still think there is a possibility here for this...like i said there will be not much flow...and yes there is no way to get water to run between 2 tanks with out a motor, im convinced on that but with 3 tanks i think you might have a way

the only reason that im not sure if this is perpetual motion because by definition perpetual motion is something that produces more engergy then put into...which is impossible due to Law of Engery Conservity (or what ever it is called) which says no energy can be *created* or *destroyed* were not trying to make something that makes more energy which would be immpossible but something that just contiounsly uses the same energy...which also is another part of the definition of perpetual motion...and this part is not impossible...were just not able to harness it yet without a perfect vacum...doesn't mean its not there...maybe there could be something with this?
[/quote]
Yes, but the problem is friction. You can try to use gravity as your energy source (thus, the siphon) but you always have friction robbing the system of energy.
[/quote]
damn friction!! i realize this im just still in wishful thinking...anyone see that magic school bus episode where they play baseball with no friction...if only the world was like that....off topic but quick does anyone know of a natural perfect vacum? maybe blackhole? cause i know Space while almost being perfect is still partial...i love space stuff


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## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

im not sure there is such thing as a "perfect vacuum"
i think its either a Vacuum, or a partial vacuum.
and ill bet damn close to a vacuum is a diesel engine cylinder.


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## Bawb2u (May 27, 2004)

CichlidAddict said:


> Yes, but the problem is friction. You can try to use gravity as your energy source (thus, the siphon) but you always have friction robbing the system of energy.


Couldn't you use the gravity twice, as in the force of water falling from a height (call this A) into a bucket filling it and using the weight of the water (call that B) wouldn't that be enough force to overcome the friction( call that F) ? (A+B>F)


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## eddyhead (Nov 6, 2007)

Nick G said:


> im not sure there is such thing as a "perfect vacuum"
> i think its either a Vacuum, or a partial vacuum.
> and ill bet damn close to a vacuum is a diesel engine cylinder.


thats why i was asking i know its theoritical...explain more on the diesel

Piraya...unfourtnetly i think we are at a bust...maybe send it in to MythBusters and tell you herd it was true...see if they can create it...they are pretty good


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## Nick G (Jul 15, 2007)

eddyhead said:


> im not sure there is such thing as a "perfect vacuum"
> i think its either a Vacuum, or a partial vacuum.
> and ill bet damn close to a vacuum is a diesel engine cylinder.


thats why i was asking i know its theoritical...explain more on the diesel

Piraya...unfourtnetly i think we are at a bust...maybe send it in to MythBusters and tell you herd it was true...see if they can create it...they are pretty good
[/quote]
i could explain, but my explanation would be something exactly the same as this:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel.htm


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

ok guys i think this may work

tub a has a sipion running into tub b just like a over flow tub b has a sipion running into tub a same thing reversed if this was a heavy enough sipion

the water from tub a would become lower wich would then cause sipion 2 to be able to sipion from the tub b and and replace the water in tub a

get what im saying although i dont think this would work eather kinda like a cycle of water

not sure if this would actully work but it sounds good


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## eddyhead (Nov 6, 2007)

not sure.....


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

pirayaman said:


> ok guys i think this may work
> 
> tub a has a sipion running into tub b just like a over flow tub b has a sipion running into tub a same thing reversed if this was a heavy enough sipion
> 
> ...


It won't work..
Get a pump. This one uses 60W of power , just about what a computer monitor uses.
http://www.aquariumguys.com/supreme7.html
Switch 10 regular incandescent bulbs to compact fluorescent light bulbs and that will offset the power that the pump uses..


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## eddyhead (Nov 6, 2007)

i think he is just trying to see if it could work...not that he is really trying to save money or anything like that...i loved this topic pirya...it finally got my mind going on something besides all these finals


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

eddyhead said:


> i think he is just trying to see if it could work...not that he is really trying to save money or anything like that...i loved this topic pirya...it finally got my mind going on something besides all these finals


for that i guess your welcome cause that is the only thing that came about in this topic the electric bill is a issue for every one 
every month throwing away money you could spend on a new pet

i do have 1 idea that makes electricity just not sure how much it will make but i have bin thinking of it for about 5 years now and it will work i just havent gotton around to building a prototype sucks i can just give someone my idea and spit the profit as if this works every one would deff one one but what ever

does any body know of a place were they take your idea build it and you will still get some of the money


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## Aaronic (Apr 22, 2005)

pirayaman said:


> i think he is just trying to see if it could work...not that he is really trying to save money or anything like that...i loved this topic pirya...it finally got my mind going on something besides all these finals


for that i guess your welcome cause that is the only thing that came about in this topic the electric bill is a issue for every one 
every month throwing away money you could spend on a new pet

i do have 1 idea that makes electricity just not sure how much it will make but i have bin thinking of it for about 5 years now and it will work i just havent gotton around to building a prototype sucks i can just give someone my idea and spit the profit as if this works every one would deff one one but what ever

does any body know of a place were they take your idea build it and you will still get some of the money
[/quote]

Lots of people come up with ideas to make energy. Then there are intelligent people who come up with ideas to make energy, and they designed what we today call "Power Plants" LOL.

Haha just bugging you, but seriously good luck making energy.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

The syphon thing will never work. It is entirely dependant on water level...not water pressure. You could take a cup and have a syphon from a 400 gallon tank...and as long as the cup is level with the water level...it will not overflow.

Toilets are entirely dependant on water pressure to fill...a float to shut off the water...and gravity to flush....so there is no magic there. Well water is dependant on water pressure to get to the house...or it needs to have a pump. It is common sense guys....the more you open the valve of a sink...the more water comes out...that is because of water pressure. Now you could use water pressure to filter a tank if you wanted...but the problem is that the force you would need to filter a decent size tank would be quite a bit...and your tank would eventually be the same temp as the incoming water...so you are again dependant on energy to heat the water.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

Grosse Gurke said:


> The syphon thing will never work. It is entirely dependant on water level...not water pressure. You could take a cup and have a syphon from a 400 gallon tank...and as long as the cup is level with the water level...it will not overflow.
> 
> Toilets are entirely dependant on water pressure to fill...a float to shut off the water...and gravity to flush....so there is no magic there. Well water is dependant on water pressure to get to the house...or it needs to have a pump. It is common sense guys....the more you open the valve of a sink...the more water comes out...that is because of water pressure. Now you could use water pressure to filter a tank if you wanted...but the problem is that the force you would need to filter a decent size tank would be quite a bit...and your tank would eventually be the same temp as the incoming water...so you are again dependant on energy to heat the water.


well running heaters in the water was nessicary anywey

how do i use water pressure to run a motor less filter i have done a search and the water towers that are every were are so far above a house that is why there is pressure for that

come on with this how whould i use water pressure to filter a tank whats up with the no awenesr / awenser


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

pirayaman said:


> come on with this how whould i use water pressure to filter a tank whats up with the no awenesr / awenser


Sorry...I dont deal with demands. Your the one that keeps coming up with inventions...so think it through. Here is a hint.....the Python cleaning system creates a syphon using water pressure...not electricity.


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

gg //// we were are very very stupid here //// and you are just the mind of the 20th century /// i do not own a python cleaning system

but i do know that my regular gravel sipioning device does not put water out wen the one end is at the same or higher than the intake

if someone has a python cs //// then please by all meens check the flow at a equal or higher hieght to the intake // and please let me know what happens

wow/// on the first page // eddyhead ///made a great point about the pressure from putting your finger over the end of the hose and that might just be enough to keep the end lower and still having enough of a sipion force /// to propell a stream above the water level // (sorry eddyhead idid not see this perticular post and wow is it a great point ) // also // with a bigger tube// and a bigger gravel vac head this could really move a lot of water /

hell/// if i dont have to run a pump ever again ill buy 4 pythons and run them all /// if it works it would give me a incredible amount of gph for filtration


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

nope sorry guys that doesnt work eather the stream created using a gravel vac and my finger only lasts for a second at a higher hight than the water so no good thought we had something there


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## pirayaman (Nov 3, 2007)

wow it will work im a complete idiot or just perhaps a little drunkness does the trick you be the jugde

i cant belive i had this much oversight during 3 pages of posts

a gravel sipion does work as the the end of the hose would be inthe bottom of the tuba way lower than the water level so the sipion effect created would remain constant

no jokes guys 2 gravel vacs will work as to the gph im not sure but it would be preety good especally if you had 2 or 3 running

never mind that last post it wont work assssssssssss wen the water levels reach the same height the sipion will stop arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i hate my idea


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