# Safe



## «PïRåñHªß¥të» (May 5, 2003)

its raing where iam at and my reds are starting to go into breeding colourations.

looks like i need to set up some tanks and start cycling


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

«PïRåñHªß¥të» said:


> its raing where iam at and my reds are starting to go into breeding colourations.
> 
> looks like i need to set up some tanks and start cycling


 I remember we talked about getting you reds to breed during other months.

Breeding out of season

Looks like there was some truth to atmospheric pressure drops in triggering the breeding in captivity. I hope everything turns out successful for you.









Now is the time to keep good control of water quality. Please keep posting on this thread you results..

Once again.. Good luck

If they go out of spawning send me a message.. I may have some helpful stategies.


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## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

I remember the thread SC is talking about, my reds were starting pre-spawn
at the time. Although weather conditions might play a role, I started keeping track
of the weather near me (upper east Tennessee). On a couple occasions the pre-
spawn slowed , when the outdoor temp dropped. This made the tank temp drop, 
I did'nt adjust the heaters to compensate. They slowed down a bit, with only 1or2
fish blowing. Well the temp picked up the other day, and guess what, they are at it 
again! Just last hour there were 2 pairs blowing/circling. The weather has just been
very sunny and cool, probably in the 60's. One change with the tank though, I had
to borrow one of the filters(330 bio-wheel) and put it on another tank. This slowed 
water movement, and has started increasing pollution levels. The aggression in the
tank is crazy when spawning starts, so I'm going to cool things off and see if this 
slows things down until I'm ready for another batch of fry. I just feel you should 
not play so much into the weather when attempting to breed reds. Maybe with
stubborn species, like piraya, cariba, and serr. species, but reds seem so easy to manipulate!


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Well the guys question was how to get his p's to spawn other than the 2 months they regularly do. I was just looking into possibilities. Most professional breeders utilize weather forecasts as an aid. Before you scrutinize the efforts to help, you should look into getter a heater powerful enough to keep constant temperature. Tank temperature varying with surrounding environmental temperature, lacks some control on your part.

You may have luck on your side. Actually when it storms you lower the water temperature, and increase aeration along with current. Then you stabilize the current, and raise the temperature. I like to have control of as many factors as possible. Temperature control is never an issue with a controlled breeding operation.

They key word for today is control.


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## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

How bout this for control...... As of this morning 1 pair of reds that has never 
bred before has laid eggs! They are all orange, with none opaque, so I don't
know how old they are. I really was'nt trying hard yet, I even had the water temp. at around 78-79 degrees! There is also 2 other pairs trying to utilize what tank 
space they can to breed(They have pits, but no eggs yet). I was just pointing out that I am conducting my own experiment with breeding "out of season". As of this
morning I have one success, so I might be on the right track! I just feel that if the basic requirements are met ;sexually mature reds, right temp.,water quality,good
food, sucess can't be far off. The guy said his fish have laid eggs before, that is the first part! All I have done is the simple things, and they have worked. I'ts not
about control, it is about missing the forest for the trees! I'll post pics of fish and new eggs later on tonight.


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## «PïRåñHªß¥të» (May 5, 2003)

sorry guys the weather didnt pan out like i would of hope it too (heavy rain,thunderstorms) later in the day the outside temp when into the - and the rain turned into snow,

no rush but i just feel like raising some little devils there so fun


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

nubsmoke said:


> How bout this for control...... As of this morning 1 pair of reds that has never
> bred before has laid eggs! They are all orange, with none opaque, so I don't
> know how old they are. I really was'nt trying hard yet, I even had the water temp. at around 78-79 degrees! There is also 2 other pairs trying to utilize what tank
> space they can to breed(They have pits, but no eggs yet). I was just pointing out that I am conducting my own experiment with breeding "out of season". As of this
> ...


 I believe I have pointed out there are many ways to breed piranhas. When you utilize statements such as.

*"On a couple occasions the pre-
spawn slowed, when the outdoor temp dropped. This made the tank temp drop; 
I didn't adjust the heaters to compensate. They slowed down a bit, with only 1or2
fish blowing. Well the temp picked up the other day, and guesses what, they are at it"*

That is a non temperature controlled environment. To achieve a repeatable success temperature control should be achieved.

It was also stated above you have luck on your side with your temperature fluctuation. When you simulate the rainy season, during a storm; you put in cooler water, thus lowering the overall tank temperature. If you have ever seen a river during a down pours or floods the current pics up. You have your methods I have mine. I prefer to have control over as many factors as possible. Then I can plot graphs and figure out exact conditions to create a repeatable operation.

I honestly think you are on a path of madness. There isn't one species of animal that I can think of bred in captivity, where temperature isn't controlled. You say experiements???

What are you objectives??? Hypothesis??? Outlined experiment? To deviate from those methods may bring partial success. But not repeatability. To move from hypothesis to theory, there must me documentation, and repeatable success (At Will)&#8230;. Perhaps you should look to the definition of experiment, and see how they are preformed from 6th grad to doctoral degree. In theory experimentation is not what you have done. Your success was luck. The knowledge of all that occurred in your, tank leading to a spawn; you are uncertain.


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## «PïRåñHªß¥të» (May 5, 2003)

nubsmoke said:


> How bout this for control...... As of this morning 1 pair of reds that has never
> bred before has laid eggs! They are all orange, with none opaque, so I don't
> know how old they are. I really was'nt trying hard yet, I even had the water temp. at around 78-79 degrees! There is also 2 other pairs trying to utilize what tank
> space they can to breed(They have pits, but no eggs yet). I was just pointing out that I am conducting my own experiment with breeding "out of season". As of this
> ...


 i dont know why but the first year my ps spawned they only lay one cluch, the last year they laid 2? they were all the same size? i hope this year i have 3


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## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

This is getting off track but..... Why confuse someone who has not had consistent spawns with all this CONTROL stuff. I'm just telling the guy to walk then run. My 
3 different tanks of breeding reds have been up and running consistently for 4
years, 2 of which they have bred ,just not all tanks at once. My temperature
fluctuations are slight, nothing to stop the fish from breeding. I am very confident
in my ability to manipulate my reds, that's why I spoke up. The person trying to 
get his reds to breed out of season might get confused with all this "scientific"
CONTROL. I am just giving personal, first-hand advice about something I was trying at the same time! It might not be an accidental spawn, while setting up the
fry tank I noticed another pair in the 150gallon has spawned. So now I go to gather up eggs! I just don't want novice breeders like myself to get sidetracked
trying to CONTROL the enviorment too much, and maybe inhibit the fish from actually breeding. I'll shut up now , and go take care of my new batch of fry!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> nubsmoke Posted on Mar 13 2004, 10:02 PM
> This is getting off track but..... Why confuse someone who has not had consistent spawns with all this CONTROL stuff. I'm just telling the guy to walk then run. My
> 3 different tanks of breeding reds have been up and running consistently for 4
> years, 2 of which they have bred ,just not all tanks at once. My temperature
> ...


Its a shame fish are not versed on scientific doctorine on what they are supposed to do or what is expected of them. This trying to "carve into concrete" what fishes will do is pure nonsense. As nubsmoke has seen and reported on his fish (and I agree) all this manipulation would make even a human go flaccid in trying to reproduce by following set procedure to much. Fish are not machines nor are they computerized to follow a human's whim for instant reproduction. As SC showed in his link about how fishes are bred, he has overlooked the most obvious statement of his information. Leave the fish alone to breed. And my golden rule, if the conditions are right for your pair of fish, they will reproduce in almost any condition.


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## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

Thank you Frank, was'nt trying to get off track, just trying to offer first hand advice. I might not be as scientific as some, but I do take my p's seriously. Ask
me anything about natteri behavior, I've observed them pretty closly since 99'.
I only speak when I know I have some input!


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

I bid this forum good bye. Xenon you may delete my account if you desire.

I shall neve ever offer any advice to another person on this forum... It's madenss to me, so I will find a new home to express my ideas in breeding.

Good luck with your Fry guy









I guess I am a different kind of hobbiest. I will continue my work, and explore breeding many species of piranhas.

Those that desire to look deeply into cause and effect, can I'm , or Email me... I will not waste my time with this forum again.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> serrasalmus_collector Posted on Mar 13 2004, 11:38 PM
> I bid this forum good bye. Xenon you may delete my account if you desire.
> 
> I shall neve ever offer any advice to another person on this forum... It's madenss to me, so I will find a new home to express my ideas in breeding.
> ...


There is nothing wrong with your ideas SC. But when you try to carve it in stone and expect your fishes will behave according to A-Z then you run into "Natural Problems". Over thinking can produce some rather jittery fish including resistence to what you are trying to do. When I suggest is, instead of the great speculation write about those things that you know work for you. Not the inventiness of what you are trying to do, but those that actually worked in producing a brood.

Ultimately, it is up to you to stay or go. But in the exchange of ideas, I'm interested in only those that work consistently. In this case, good water conditions and mature pair of fishes help and certainly much luck. Piranas remain unpredicable in all their splendor. Good luck in whatever you do.


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## «PïRåñHªß¥të» (May 5, 2003)

Bye if u got to go u got to go!no?

anyways all this "Scientific" stuff does not bother me at all, belive me a got into this a long time before u guys even had ur piranhas(maybe)

Damn i even remember seing frank on national geographic for christ sake.

BTW Serra Collecter heres on for you and the books, to try to repicate the rainy season, get christmas light filcker(turns lights on and off) to repicate thunder


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## armac (Nov 28, 2002)

> I bid this forum good bye


See ya! Look this is a hobby for most of us, and many of us have been at it for more than 2 years (like you say you have been), your a little too focused for me, not trying to be rude but I keep my fish happy and they have spawned before and will again. Good luck at your new home.


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## asian_redtail_catfish (Sep 25, 2003)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> I bid this forum good bye. Xenon you may delete my account if you desire.
> 
> I shall neve ever offer any advice to another person on this forum... It's madenss to me, so I will find a new home to express my ideas in breeding.
> 
> ...


 I do not post that much but I read the fourm a lot. I think you should not leave the fourm because I think you provide a lot of useful advice from your experience. There might be disagreements but that should not keep you from posting here.


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## Piranha_Adept (Feb 11, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > serrasalmus_collector Posted on Mar 13 2004, 11:38 PM
> > I bid this forum good bye. Xenon you may delete my account if you desire.
> >
> > I shall neve ever offer any advice to another person on this forum... It's madenss to me, so I will find a new home to express my ideas in breeding.
> ...


 You are an idiot. SC has helped 6 people over the last year breed reds repeat ably. I know him very well. You are a hypocrite and utilize favoritism. The Jim Smith guy you exhalault for breeding Cariba. Ha ha ha. I know him, and so does Al. He did bred Cariba, and SC chose a different approach. Jim apparently can't achieve repeatability. But for repeatability. SC is the man. He got his gold piranhas to breed 5 times in 3 months. He can bred reds within a 3 month notice. After less than 1 month he got his spiloCF to breed again. What have you bred???? You post pics of fish digging holes, and turning colors. That is nothing. Bundle of egg is where you should start old man. You are the best, and excite more wacked threads than SC. Where is genetic data on Ternetzi being Nattereri???

As for the Christmas lights. Ha ha ha. I read that link. I personally bred reds by utilizing a strobe light, and spray bar. This simulates rain and thunder. A little knowledge goes a long way in breeding fish. SC tried to give you guys an abundance of knowledge. But your literacy level could not comprehend the help he offered.

Hastatus you go by the book and so does SC. He bred Reds, Golds, spiloCF, and got eggs from his Ternetzi colony. All this was done in a 6 month period. I think his success rate proves his methods have some positive results. The methods of Cariba breeding will be mastered by us both. I have seen with my own eyes manipulation of water parameters, produce digging, darkening in color, and swimming in frantic loops. But no need to post things like that, because no success is failure. How is your single Cariba doing???? What have you bred??? You possess a phenomenal amount of information about breeding. Can you share some of your success??? Or are you just theorizing some ideas???


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## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

I remember 3-4 years ago on another message board a similar situation. It seems
as that some people want to do something "big" with p's. Maybe gain something 
more than a general hobbiest would want. In their excitement they can confuse or 
misdirect a newbie. No one ever questioned SC's sucess, he has been in hobby for
2 years and bred species that have already been bred in captivity, right. It seems
he can't take a little criticism on his extreme methods of recreating enviormental
conditions! He is willing to go elsewhere, just like the person I was talking about
did 3-4 years ago. There is no reason for that, even if he seems a little sensitive!
This thread was not meant to start a fued, or make someone take their toy's and go home! I repeat..... SC seemed to be getting to scientific about making reds
breed out of season. I was doing it with sucess while I was posting these messages. That is the only reason I spoke up(that and the fact I posted the same thoughts a month ago)! Did not mean to make anyone mad!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Piranha_Adept Posted on Mar 14 2004, 04:56 PM
> QUOTE (hastatus @ Mar 13 2004, 11:43 PM)
> QUOTE
> serrasalmus_collector Posted on Mar 13 2004, 11:38 PM
> ...


Normally, I delete posts like yours because it wastes space. But I will say this to you. Ask SC where he got his breeding information from and all the support behind the scenes.

Other than that, have a nice day.


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