# Breathing Hard



## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, my Piranhas are really opening and closing their gills quickly and clamping there jaws almost like there not getting enough oxygen. They have been doing this for quite awhile now im just wondering if this is normal behavior for Piranhas.
Someone mentioned it was yawning or something but I forgot to mention the gills part so just want to make sure.


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

Most likely cause is dislodging food particles after eating. Also check your core parameters.


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

Core Params as in water hardness and Ph?


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## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

nitrite nitrate and ammonia


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## boontje (Mar 27, 2005)

ammonia, nitrites, nitrates

EDIT: ok too late :laugh:


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## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

HA too slow


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## Piranhaz 411 (Oct 8, 2005)

this is dangerous

hahahah very funny


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

Well I just did a 25% water change so there all okay.

Anyone have any vidoes of there RBP's just chilling out so I can just compare?


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## Curley (Aug 4, 2004)

i had the same problem.... did a big water change and added some air bubbles and put my spray bar on the surface of the tank and AOK.... can happen from stress... or lack of oxygen in the water...


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

ya, well im thinking of getting an airstone.
Some people say that my AC 500 is enough for areating the tank but im not to sure.


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

ya this happens to me when my bubbler is off. Do u have a bubbler or anyhitng else that privdes sufficient oxygen?


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

No I dont, only my AC 500.
My Fluval 304 is right bellow the surface of the water, it doesn't create any air bubbles.
My AC 802 is currently shut off.


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

Kemper1989 said:


> No I dont, only my AC 500.
> My Fluval 304 is right bellow the surface of the water, it doesn't create any air bubbles.
> My AC 802 is currently shut off.


try putting your Fluval 304 over the water surface that hsould crat some decent air bubbles.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

whats your water temp?


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

Water Temperature is between 79-80.5
It use to be above the surface but I found it created to much noise and its in my room so I hard a hard time sleeping.


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

Kemper1989 said:


> Water Temperature is between 79-80.5
> It use to be above the surface but I found it created to much noise and its in my room so I hard a hard time sleeping.


rena air pumps are good silent and efficient.


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

Does Wal-Mart sell them and what Model should I get for a 55 gallon?


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

The warmer the water the less o2 it holds...Im using 2s30 airpumps and 2 bubble walls (1 per air pump)on my 45 g , might be overkill but it comes in handy when u got a sick fish and need to raise temperature also my fish are too small for a powerhead yet so it keeps a good flow in the tank.


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

Kemper1989 said:


> Does Wal-Mart sell them and what Model should I get for a 55 gallon?


i doubt wal-mart sells them but u could try.
Read the lael and see what size tank its good for.
To be honest i just get the 10 gal size for my 40 gal. I dont see why have to spend 55 dollars when i can get a smaller version for 12 dollars which still provides enough oxygen for my tank.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

rocker said:


> Does Wal-Mart sell them and what Model should I get for a 55 gallon?


i doubt wal-mart sells them but u could try.
Read the lael and see what size tank its good for.
To be honest i just get the 10 gal size for my 40 gal. I dont see why have to spend 55 dollars when i can get a smaller version for 12 dollars which still provides enough oxygen for my tank.
[/quote]
the wallmart here sells them,but not much cheaper then petshop.


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

I dont understand there chart.
Aquarium Volume (L), is that what I should be looking under for the aquarium size? 
Whats 55G in Litres anyways.


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

Kemper1989 said:


> I dont understand there chart.
> Aquarium Volume (L), is that what I should be looking under for the aquarium size?
> Whats 55G in Litres anyways.


I think its 55G is around 200L i think.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

rocker said:


> I dont understand there chart.
> Aquarium Volume (L), is that what I should be looking under for the aquarium size?
> Whats 55G in Litres anyways.


I think its 55G is around 200L i think.
[/quote]
go to googl and type
55 gallons in litres
google has a conversion tool built in it


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

lil fishy said:


> I dont understand there chart.
> Aquarium Volume (L), is that what I should be looking under for the aquarium size?
> Whats 55G in Litres anyways.


I think its 55G is around 200L i think.
[/quote]
go to googl and type
55 gallons in litres
google has a conversion tool built in it








[/quote]
i dont need to do that im smart :rasp: 
But i did check it up to see how close i was and i got this...
208.197649L.


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

The thing is though that I lost power for 6 hours during the night like a week ago with the same setup. If I had a lack of oxygen wouldn't they have died?


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## boontje (Mar 27, 2005)

it's not the bubbles that bring oxygen in your tank, but you need to make sure the water surface is moving (the bubbles move your water so obviously they help, but if your filtration creates plenty of surface agitation, you don't need it)

also keep in mind that a dirty tank has less oxygen. so don't neglect gravel vacs


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

Kemper1989 said:


> Well, my Piranhas are really opening and closing their gills quickly and clamping there jaws almost like there not getting enough oxygen. They have been doing this for quite awhile now im just wondering if this is normal behavior for Piranhas.
> Someone mentioned it was yawning or something but I forgot to mention the gills part so just want to make sure.


Kemper1989,

Please be more specific, people here are most likely mixing a few things.
Let me point some of them.

*Oxygen deficiency*

First of all, the only harmfull case here is if you have low oxygen concentration in your tank. This situation when severe may also kill the fishes. Oxygen comsumption in a Piranha tank is not only a consequence of your fishes consumption or the consumption of the plants (especially during night time). In a Piranha tank there is a lot of nitrification and saprophytic activity going on. This activity consumes oxygen, sometimes a lot.

A fairly well stocked Piranha tank (not to mention overstocked situations) needs to have a good surface agitation. A bubble strip is not necessary because it does not actually circulate the water very well. However, you may have it if you like it. It will add more gas contact of your room air to the water of your tank, and thus, increase the oxygen content. It also does a little surface agitation.
Anyway, the best surface agitation is done by setting the output (pressure) tube of your filter/filters at the water surface level in your tank.

Well you have oxygen deficiency if your fishes are gasping continuously. This is the continuous openings and closures of mouth and gills and the membranes inside the mouth = heavy breathing.

If your fishes, however, are only from time to time opening their mouth (fully open) or doing rapid opening and closing movements for a second or two, then it is not due to oxygen deficiency. This is normal, keep on reading.

*Yawning*

2) From time to time Piranhas yawn. This way they flex and stretch their jaws. This way they also momentarily increase the oxygen intake, much like we humans do when we are tired.
This is normal, all fishes do this.

*Rapid mouth contractions*

3) This involves rapid consecutive openings and closures of mouth. Here Piranhas close their mouths fully, like biting. In fact, this resembles feeding frenzy, rapidly biting several times. Only that now they do not bite anything.
Anyway Piranhas do this normally. It may be due to some cleaning function or merely a biting reflex.

Regards,


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## boontje (Mar 27, 2005)

harrykaa said:


> In a Piranha tank there is a lot of nitrification and* saprophytic activity* going on.


What is saprophytic activity ?


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

What other things can cause the rapid gill movement and jaw opening?


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

Could water hardness have anything to do with it?


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

Heres a picture of my Ph Test.
Hopefully this will help...
This is straight from my tap which I use to fill my aquarium by the way its not my aquarium water.


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

kemper leaving your airation system off for 6 wont kill your piranhas theyll be fine.
I once went about 2 months withought one till some ppl told me i needed air. All i can say is get an airpump. Fuk water paremeters, fuk temperature. All u need is a good oxygen supply.
Hope this helps.


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

ya, well im thinking of going to Wal-Mart right now to get one.
My biggest Piranha is really having a hard time breathing.


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

Kemper1989 said:


> ya, well im thinking of going to Wal-Mart right now to get one.
> My biggest Piranha is really having a hard time breathing.


U should get it as soon as possible before thye get inot "super" shock. Mine started flouting upwards vertically so ya i was really worries but when i got my air pump in a while they all where fine. It also helps circulate your water so it gets cleaner.


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

There just added one I found.
It was from like my sisters 5g goldfish bowl.
Think it will do the job? its got an airstone on the end and I shuved it down the fake piece of wood so it would stay. 
heres a picture of it.
its an stq 3001.


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

its not a comlete pic i only see about like 1 cm of the top.


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

There just added one I found.
It was from like my sisters 5g goldfish bowl.
Think it will do the job? its got an airstone on the end and I shuved it down the fake piece of wood so it would stay. 
heres a picture of it.
its an stq 3001.


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## Piranhaz 411 (Oct 8, 2005)

will do for awhile


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

How long will it take before I notice a difference?


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## rocker (Aug 12, 2005)

Kemper1989 said:


> How long will it take before I notice a difference?


id say a good 2 hours or more.


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

boontje said:


> What is saprophytic activity ?


Boontje,

Saprophytic activity:

Organism that are capable of using light energy to synthetize building material for their needs are called autotrophs.
Saprohytes are those organisms that get their synthetizing energy from other organisms (autotrophs or other saprohytes).

Bacteria, that break the food leavings, fish waste and dying plant material down, 
are important saprophytes in aquarium.

Regards,


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

I think the air stone will do the trick: rapid breathing can indeed be a sign of oxygen deficit, but it can also be caused by other problems.
What are your ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte readings?
Do your filters still perform sufficiently? They get clogged with crap and debris over time, and loose performance and efficiency. The debris can also smother the bacteria that take care of the breakdown of ammonia and nitrIte, which could lead to spikes...

I too can't stand the splashing sound of water, so I attached a venturi valve (also known as diffusor) on the large internal filter in my Redbelly aquarium: it adds air to the outlet flow, creating bubbles and thus aerating the water, but it hardly makes any sound:
View attachment 80825


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

my Ammonia reads 0 and I will have to pick up a Nitrate and Nitrite test as my Hagen ones suck...
So I guess this takes out my Ph assumtion right?
Also I did what you said Judazzz and I have my Powerhead on, I cranked the airflow as well so hopefully this will add even more oxygen.
The powerhead is located in the middle of the tank btw


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Piranha's are tough and adaptable fish, so I doubt your pH (which was around 7.5 right?) will be a problem. I keep my Reds (and kept my Manueli, a wildcuaght and thus much more sensitive fish) at a pH of 7.5 without any problems.

For now I'd not change anything else: you switched on the powerhead and cranked up the air flow: those are noticable changes to which the fish will have to adjust, which will take some time. If you keep changing the living conditions, it will only cause additional stress.

Good luck


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

So you guys are saying 1000000 bubbles does nothing to surface area.HaHaHa.my 2 pumps and 2 bubble walls send bubbles all the way to other side of my tank.
1 little bubble=roughly1-2mm of extra surface area of tank that is highly agitated as it travels upward...common sense guys!!!!!


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## jesterx626 (Jul 27, 2005)

One question, i do have a bubbler. Now how does it agitate the surface? meaning does the bubbles or my filter have to break the surface Or just as long as the surface moves?


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

I have no idea, wish someone would clarify that.


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

Kemper1989 said:


> What other things can cause the rapid gill movement and jaw opening?


flukes or parasites


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

What causes Flukes and Parasites, poor water?


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## Fry (Oct 9, 2005)

Kemper1989 said:


> What causes Flukes and Parasites, poor water?


http://www.goldfishinfo.com/identify.htm


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## Dr. Giggles (Oct 18, 2003)

lil fishy said:


> What other things can cause the rapid gill movement and jaw opening?


flukes or parasites [/quote]

Being chased by other p's for a consistent amount of time. Anchor worm.


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

lil fishy said:


> So you guys are saying 1000000 bubbles does nothing to surface area.HaHaHa.my 2 pumps and 2 bubble walls send bubbles all the way to other side of my tank.
> 1 little bubble=roughly1-2mm of extra surface area of tank that is highly agitated as it travels upward...common sense guys!!!!!


Yes lil fishy is rigth in meaning bubbles from bubble pumice stone or from the outlet tube of a filter (when it is combined with a small aeration tube) do send a great number of air bubbles into the water. These will surely increase gas exchange in the water and they are efficient oxygen diffusers.

With surface agitation we mean simply the artificial movement of the tank water surface. That can be achieved by setting the filter outlet tube at the level of the surface. Very efficient system also.

Regards,


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

jesterx626 said:


> One question, i do have a bubbler. Now how does it agitate the surface? meaning does the bubbles or my filter have to break the surface Or just as long as the surface moves?


At the water surface, gas exchange takes place (CO2 out of the water, oxygen added to the water) - the larger the surface area, the more gas exchange can take place. A surface that is completely motionless has about the same surface area as the tank's footprint: a surface that is in motion (either by air bubbles to burst open at the surface, or caused by currents that stir up the surface), has a larger surface area, thus more gas exchange takes place, thus the water will be more oxygenised.

You can compare the underlying principle - to a certain extent - to burning a piece of wood (to take a random example): if you dump a large log onto a fire, it will burn slowly. If you chip that same log into small pieces and then throw it onto the fire, it will burn up much faster, as the chips combined have a larger surface, thus contact area.


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## i said no (Jul 30, 2005)

wow great topic not much 2 add as we clearly have xperts aboard, i will add this-: 'surface area' or as already mentioned the foot print is the key,the more 'waves' across the surface the higher the oxygen level, as a result the air pumps so often used are ineffective if u have sufficiant water movement, they just look pritty(if u like that kind of thing) they do not 'pump' oxygen into tank more break the surface thus creating ripples increasing surface area ( although this montion can draw water from the bottom of the tank)........ the other point to consider is if you tank is quite deep ie2foot or more good circulation is essential I find it most effective 2 use a canister filter drawing in from close to bottom of the tank and a spray bar at the top, thus water naturally circulates , add one large power head 2 keep the fish active and job done. A trickle filter is also a highly effectivce method of aireation!

hope this is of some use!

last post The Flying Dutchman























'These will surely increase gas exchange in the water and they are efficient oxygen diffusers.'





















(no dis intended) but they are not oxygen duffusers they are air pumps so diffuse air not oxygen! and they do increase surface area but only in area bubbles breaking and small ripples nothing compared to powerhead/filter on surface. as water has a film the meniscus this does need 2 be broken for full effect!


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