# Water Changes Over Rated?



## AE Aquatics (Alex) (Jan 15, 2006)

I had fish all my life, from the 10 gal starter kit twenty yrs ago to now. I've had South American, African Cichlids and all the nice stuff. I read of people doing water changes 1x to 2x a week. Don't bash me but I hardly do water changes, I know EVERYONE recommends it but I've had my RBP for 9 yrs and I've never had a problem with him. When my tank gets low I just add some more water. I also only treat my water with Black water extract. Do you think I'm lucky having a RBP for nine yrs? Don't kill me to bad plz. I'm not a pro I'm still a novice learning about Ps


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## Sheppard (Jul 8, 2004)

That's crazy..
I think you are most definitley lucky to have an RBP live for 9 years without many water changes


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I dont think they are over rated. These fish can adapt to all kinds of water conditions...including high nitrates. Water changes simply keep nitrates lower and replace any nutrients fish absorbe from the water.


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## AE Aquatics (Alex) (Jan 15, 2006)

I check my water once a week, and everything is fine. Don't forget that Ps sometimes survive in puddles of mudd and water during drought season, they are tough fish. I feel when you do water changes so often (2x a week) you run the risk of introducing harmful bacteria in his enviroment. Your not allowing the water to cycle.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Water doesnt cycle...your bio-media does....so doing water changes doesnt have a negative effect if the basic water parameters are the same.


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## AE Aquatics (Alex) (Jan 15, 2006)

Grosse, I understand the whole water cycling thing, I not saying its negative, but is it really necessary to do water changes 2x a week or even once a week? I add water every 2 weeks, so I'm adding nutrients right? I'm not saying its the right way but I think some people over do it with the water changes.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Water changes can only help your fish so I dont think you can over do them. If not doing them works for you...thats cool...but I dont think water changes are a negative...or overrated. You may be adding nutrients by adding water when you have evaporation...but you are not reducing the buildup of nitrates. Many fish can adapt to high nitrates...but that does not mean it wont inhibit maximum growth or health in the fish.


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

How big is your rbp @ 9 years old?
Do you have any photos?


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## AE Aquatics (Alex) (Jan 15, 2006)

Here he is. Like I said I'm not new to keeping Ps. I'm new to this site and it has so much information about everything. I just never had a problem so I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. The more I read the more I understand. My P is about 8-9 in in a 45gal maybe if I would of done more water changes he would be bigger.


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## PaNo617 (Jan 31, 2005)

i dont think doing water changes once or even twice a week is over rated at all. I think if you want optimal growth and health for your fish then at least a small weekly water change will make a big difference in the way the fish grows and even acts. I've let my rhoms tank go for almost 2 weeks without a water change once and i noticed it was alot less active, but once i did a 25-30% water change he become alot more active. Sure it would adapt to just a 25% water change once a month, but i think the fish wouldn't grow as fast and not survive its optimal lifespan.

Plus alot of people on this site drop serious $$$ on their fish, so it wouldnt make sense to buy a $300+ piranha or any fish and have it living in anything other then optimal water conditions...thats what i think.


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## Kemper1989 (Feb 14, 2005)

Iv heard of lots of people keeping fish and hardly doing any water changes. They do it once a month and their Piranhas are fine. I did water changes 2x a week and mine died, completely cycled the tank and everything. Im not saying that water changes are wrong but thats just my opinion. For all I know the ratio might be 10000:1 for water changes and it was just a freak accident.


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## PaNo617 (Jan 31, 2005)

alcas74 said:


> Here he is. Like I said I'm not new to keeping Ps. I'm new to this site and it has so much information about everything. I just never had a problem so I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. The move I read the more I understand. My P is about 8-9 in in a 45gal maybe if I would of done more water changes he would be bigger.


In 9 years that guy should be alot bigger then 8-9". I havn't owned any pygos but, most people have had them grow to 7-8"+ in the first year.


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

I think it's far better for your fish to change water regularily...
There really is no excuse or reason for not doing it.


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## AE Aquatics (Alex) (Jan 15, 2006)

Watch me start doing water changes once a week and I'll have a dead P. How often do poeple do it? Is every 2 weeks enough? and what chemicals do u add with ur water changes?


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## SouthernBoy (Dec 15, 2005)

Water changes are not needed once a month. They should be based on you stock. Take my 75gal into consideration. It is way over filtered...almost double what i need on it. With 6 cichlids all under 2 inches...why should i do them twice a week or even once? my water to fish ratio is so high that i can control my parimators with only 25% water changes every two weeks. It would be pointless considering when i do my water changes there are almost no nitrates when i test it.


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## AE Aquatics (Alex) (Jan 15, 2006)

Pano617 said:


> Here he is. Like I said I'm not new to keeping Ps. I'm new to this site and it has so much information about everything. I just never had a problem so I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. The move I read the more I understand. My P is about 8-9 in in a 45gal maybe if I would of done more water changes he would be bigger.


In 9 years that guy should be alot bigger then 8-9". I havn't owned any pygos but, most people have had them grow to 7-8"+ in the first year.
[/quote]
Mind you he's in a 45. isn't avg 10-12in? He isn't that far off. 1 or 2 inches wouldn't be alot! I have 2 AC70s running in my tank and I mostly feed him freezed dried shrimp. I also have some Barbs and a couple of Bristlenose. For people who have alot of Ps I could understand, But my water is perfect. Those 2 AC70s keep my water crystal.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

The amount of filtration doesnt have anything to do with water changes. Filtration is needed to handle the bio-load of the tank. Once you get to a certain point...it will not help or hinder your cycle. Nitrates are not visible so that doesnt tell you much either. Im not saying that there are not people that dont go overboard...but that isnt a bad thing. You can have filtration comming out the ass and unless you have a nitrate reduction filter....there comes a point when all you are doing is creating current....and maybe filtering out some of the floating parcles.
Thats just the way it is. Im not saying people havent had great success with 6 month water changes...they have...but imo...high nitrates are one of the major factors in lack of growth. 
So yes...you can have fish that will adapt to high nitrates...but that doesnt mean you are providing the best living conditions for your fish.

BTW alcas74, you have a nice looking nattereri...but his tail is a little small :laugh:


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## PaNo617 (Jan 31, 2005)

alcas74 said:


> Here he is. Like I said I'm not new to keeping Ps. I'm new to this site and it has so much information about everything. I just never had a problem so I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. The move I read the more I understand. My P is about 8-9 in in a 45gal maybe if I would of done more water changes he would be bigger.


In 9 years that guy should be alot bigger then 8-9". I havn't owned any pygos but, most people have had them grow to 7-8"+ in the first year.
[/quote]
Mind you he's in a 45. isn't avg 10-12in? He isn't that far off. 1 or 2 inches wouldn't be alot! I have 2 AC70s running in my tank and I mostly feed him freezed dried shrimp. I also have some Barbs and a couple of Bristlenose. For people who have alot of Ps I could understand, But my water is perfect. Those 2 AC70s keep my water crystal.
[/quote]

It's up to you man, It's your fish you do what you feel is right. You never know though he could of been 12"+ especially after 9 years, it must of took him awhile to reach 8-9" when he could of reached that size in less then 2 years...either way its cool that you've had that fish for that long..wish i could do that, but i get bored easily.


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## AE Aquatics (Alex) (Jan 15, 2006)

alcas74 said:


> Watch me start doing water changes once a week and I'll have a dead P. How often do poeple do it? Is every 2 weeks enough? and what chemicals do u add with ur water changes?


Gross, I'm gonna take ur advice and start doing water changes more frequently, But can u answer my above question. Do u add chemicals when u do water changes? and if so what do u add. I know my guy is older but do u think that these water changes might spur ailttle growth? 
Thanks for the input. This site is great!!


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## PaNo617 (Jan 31, 2005)

alcas74 said:


> Watch me start doing water changes once a week and I'll have a dead P. How often do poeple do it? Is every 2 weeks enough? and what chemicals do u add with ur water changes?


Gross, I'm gonna take ur advice and start doing water changes more frequently, But can u answer my above question. Do u add chemicals when u do water changes? and if so what do u add. I know my guy is older but do u think that these water changes might spur ailttle growth? 
Thanks for the input. This site is great!!
[/quote]

All you really need is a water conditioner. One that removes Chlorine, Chlormine, Ammonia.
It also detoxifies Nitrite And Nitrate. The one i use is PRIME by Seachem. Theres many different brands. You can add the required amount to the tank right before you fill it with the clean water.


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## AE Aquatics (Alex) (Jan 15, 2006)

Thanks Pano, do u think I'll see some more growth or is he done?


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

alcas74 said:


> Thanks Pano, do u think I'll see some more growth or is he done?


Not sure if it will now, although I have heard stories of stunted fish living in too small a tank that started growing again once they were moved to a larger tank. Note that I'm not saying your fish is stunted (8-9" isn't that big for a 9 year old Red, but also not unusual - genetics amongst other things play a key role too), nor am I saying your tank is too small (a 45g for a lone Red sounds good to me). And it's pretty clear that if you managed to keep your Red alive for 9 years, a Red that looks healthy and beautiful (apart from the tail - what's the story?), you must be doing something right, despite the fact you don't do water changes! Makes one wonder what role the black water extract has played...

One of the reasons for water changes other than keeping nitrAtes in check is that fish emit certain hormones that affect growth. In the wild this is not an issue, as the vast amounts of water dilute them into virtual non-existence almost instantly, but in a closed system such as a fish tank they can build up and start playing a role.
Just wondering: do you have live plants in your tank? And do you know the nitrAte level in your tank? I'm curious about how nitrAtes haven't become an issue in your tank...


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

alcas74 said:


> Gross, I'm gonna take ur advice and start doing water changes more frequently, But can u answer my above question. Do u add chemicals when u do water changes? and if so what do u add. I know my guy is older but do u think that these water changes might spur ailttle growth?
> Thanks for the input. This site is great!!


Yeah...a water conditioner is all I use. I use a generic one that breaks the chlorimine bond as well as handling chlorine. Just make sure the faucet temp and tank temp is relatively the same and you should be fine. I would start out with 10%-25% weekly changes..and then adjust when your nitrates are in check.
As far as growth...who knows..but it cant hurt. Read Judazzz's post above....good info.


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## Icemann (Dec 21, 2005)

I agree with the person below the pic, i spet quite abit on my fish in my opeion and i wouldnt want anything less than perfect water for him, but whatever works for you man.


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## mashunter18 (Jan 2, 2004)

just curious if you have substrate in the tank...do you have undergravel filter.???

I gotta think old food, and fish waste is pretty bad down there..Ever done anything with that??


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## AE Aquatics (Alex) (Jan 15, 2006)

I do have live plants. I don't have a undergravel filter. I run 2 AC70s. I took out my powerhead because the ACs put out alot of current. I have 12 bards and 2 bristlenose placos to eat left overs. As far as waste I use my Python when I do my cleaning and its not that bad. I don't overfeed at all and I always take out whats left over. I just did my Nitrate test and it came out between 10-15mg. I also bought a bottle of Aquasafe to do a water change tonite. I tested my tap water and it was between 0-5mg. Do you guys think I should put my powerhead back in or will that be to much current for a 45. The reason I had the powerhead was because I had 2 Penquin 330s that were weak compared to the ACs. Thanks again!


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## doctorvtec (May 15, 2004)

alcas74 said:


> I had fish all my life, from the 10 gal starter kit twenty yrs ago to now. I've had South American, African Cichlids and all the nice stuff. I read of people doing water changes 1x to 2x a week. Don't bash me but I hardly do water changes, I know EVERYONE recommends it but I've had my RBP for 9 yrs and I've never had a problem with him. When my tank gets low I just add some more water. I also only treat my water with Black water extract. Do you think I'm lucky having a RBP for nine yrs? Don't kill me to bad plz. I'm not a pro I'm still a novice learning about Ps


Only question I have is that you are conflicting yourself.

You say you have had fish all your life, and P's for the past 9 years, yet you keep commenting about being a novice, or "just learning about piranha's".

Which is it?


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## Dawgz (Aug 18, 2005)

alcas74 said:


> I had fish all my life, from the 10 gal starter kit twenty yrs ago to now. I've had South American, African Cichlids and all the nice stuff. I read of people doing water changes 1x to 2x a week. Don't bash me but I hardly do water changes, I know EVERYONE recommends it but I've had my RBP for 9 yrs and I've never had a problem with him. When my tank gets low I just add some more water. I also only treat my water with Black water extract. Do you think I'm lucky having a RBP for nine yrs? Don't kill me to bad plz. I'm not a pro I'm still a novice learning about Ps


lol so waht do u think happens to the piranha when it shits? or the left over food it shreds.....u think it magically dissapears?


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## mashunter18 (Jan 2, 2004)

alcas74 said:


> I do have live plants. I don't have a undergravel filter. I run 2 AC70s. I took out my powerhead because the ACs put out alot of current. I have 12 bards and 2 bristlenose placos to eat left overs.*As far as waste I use my Python when I do my cleaning and its not that bad.* I don't overfeed at all and I always take out whats left over. I just did my Nitrate test and it came out between 10-15mg. I also bought a bottle of Aquasafe to do a water change tonite. I tested my tap water and it was between 0-5mg. Do you guys think I should put my powerhead back in or will that be to much current for a 45. The reason I had the powerhead was because I had 2 Penquin 330s that were weak compared to the ACs. Thanks again!


Thats gonna keep your nitrates down, if you have been doing that, I would assume water comes out and you refill????

ON your original post years ago before i knew better, my procedure was every few monthes, out comes the undergravel filter, everything would go to the sink for a hot water scrub down and deep cleaning and all refilled with clean fresh water, even the gravel, and my fish always survived....







Some species can take extreme conditions. My opionion would be in the long run some form of wter change would be healthier for the fish......


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## AE Aquatics (Alex) (Jan 15, 2006)

Let me start by saying yrs does not determin whether or not ur a novice or a pro. I stated that I've had a P for nine yrs and until I found this GREAT site I had no ideal I was doing evrything wrong. I never knew a forum like this excisted until last month. In that month I've learned alot about Ps. I'm constantly reading EVERY day since learning about my fish. I would only do water changes every few months when i did my cleaning. I did ur PH, Amonia and Nitrite test and I never ran into a problem, so I thought everything was ok until I started reading and asking questions on this site. I've learned that I'm extremly lucky my P is still alive and for that I'm changing things up so my P will have the best conditions posible. 9m yrs ago I was ur typical person that just buy them, feeds them feeders and enjoys the show. So plz excuse me for being ignorant for 9 yrs. As for as poop DAWG I bought "POOP BE GONE" from Jack Black and Ben Stiller.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

alcas74, I agree...years in the hobby doesnt make you a novice or pro. Our hope is to provide information for people exactly like you...dedicated to the hobby, and willing to take the time to learn more.

Good luck with your little guy.


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## AE Aquatics (Alex) (Jan 15, 2006)

Thank you. I was up till 4 in the morning redoing my tank. I took out some drift wood to give him some more space. Grosse, My Nitrate was pretty low at 15. Do you still advise doing water changes 1x a week or 1x every 2 weeks?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I would. Sounds like your bio-load is really small...and with the help of live plants, it is keeping the nitrates low. I would do a small gravel vac and water change weekly...like maybe 10%..and see how that works.


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## AE Aquatics (Alex) (Jan 15, 2006)

What gravel vacs are good?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Im just talking about using the python to get the crap out of the gravel. By the time you are done cleaning...you will have removed enough water for your water change. I guess we are just talking about upping your cleanings to once a month.


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## AE Aquatics (Alex) (Jan 15, 2006)

Are those battery vacs any good? The battery vac just seems so easy and quick.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I think the battery vacs defeat the purpose. They don’t remove any water...just crap. After you are done vacuuming the gravel with the python...your water change is done...on smaller tanks.


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## corbypete (Jan 24, 2005)

P's are tough fish, and I went months without water changes, keeping crap down/replacing nutrients using easybalance alone, no carbon filtering, and mechanical filter.

HOWEVER, now I've got my ass into gear Im doing water changes, and with ease thanks to my powerhead and indoor hose pipe.

I did this because I felt, although alive, my fish were not happy being big and in an easybalance tank.

Easybalance has its place, but its not with big P's, tiny, virtually wasteless happy fish do just fine, and baby P's.

My fish are tons happier now though


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## cory (Jan 31, 2006)

I have owned a RB for six and a half years now and did the exact same thing. I started it in a 40gal tank and moved it to an 80gal. Never did water changes at all. I now do since I have added 3 more SRB's with it. My fish is between 8-8.5" long and is pale/light pink in color. Since I have been doing weekly water changes and stopped feeding it goldfish and color enhancing pellets switching to krill and shrimp hes getting a little color back in him. I talked with Pedro on growth stunting and he told me that most home aquarium RB's only get to the 8" mark and if you have one thats over this your doing good or the genetics of the fish caused it to grow larger...just like some people grow over 7' tall and some only 4'. He also told me my fish could live up to 20 years and will eventualy turn completely black in color with old age.


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## Zip (Apr 17, 2005)

I found this thread interesting, since I was about to start one on exactly the same topic today. I have a 75 gallon planted tank, 2 Emperor 400's with Seachem Matrix in the trays, with 3 RBP's and 1 Pleco, all measuring about 9", so it's stocked fairly heavily. Until several weeks ago, I've been doing weekly python changes. This results in NH3/NO2/NO3 readings of 0/0/7 ppm typically for me.

However, I've read that for optimal plant health, NO3 readings should be at least 3 times this. The only way I can achieve this without some artificial supplementation would be through far less frequent changes. I've been monitoring, and in 17 days (and counting) since my last cleaning, I'm coming in at 0/0/12 ppm, my water has never been so crystal clear, and my RBP's are as colorful and feisty as ever.

With these results, I'm considering dropping my cleaning frequency way back, to perhaps once a month (I wouldn't consider stopping all cleaning as a couple people here have apparently done with success). What to do, what to do...hmmm.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

I also want to add that I find this thread very interesting! I think that it is great that someone can come on the thread and ask a question like this, get comments, and not get roasted in the process.

Very cool everyone! Great Post!


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## Steve-Fox (Nov 28, 2005)

do water changes every week 30% dechlorinate the water remove unwanted food


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## cory (Jan 31, 2006)

I also forgot to mention that I never installed a heater tank untill I added the 3 additional SRB's to my tank with the 6.5 year old RB a few months back. Over the years my poilot light has gone out on the furnace in my old house dropping to the temperature in my house to being able to see my breath. My P was upsidedown in the tank both times still breathing. Apon both occations I filled a bucket up with warm water and dropped my fish in it. The first time I did this the fish came instantly to life and jummped two feet out of the bucket straight up in the air and came back down into it. I'm pretty much convinced its almost impossible to kill these fish. Someone told me you have to wait 24 hours before putting your fish in an aquairium after completely filling it with tap water or it will kill your fish. Well, I have done this a couple of dozen times as well and the fish have never minded it.


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