# Thiaminase and its ill effects



## Eating Machine (Jan 27, 2006)

http://forums.waterwolves.com/index.php?showtopic=10712&hl=

For anyone else, like me, who was unaware of the supposed harmful effects of goldfish, minnows, and other fish in the Cyprind group (which contain thiaminase) as a food source. Here's a quick, simplified explaination of what thiaminase is and what it does:

............_Thiaminase is an enzyme that prevents the body from utilizing thiamin (B1) by reacting with the vitamin and changing its make-up (splitting it) and thereby destroying it. _ .............

Not only can the Vitamin B 1 difficiency from prolonged consumption of thiaminase cause inhibited growth in your fish, but can apparently lead to death in long term cases.

Not only goldfish and minnows of the cyprinid group, but one poster near the end of the thread in the link says he read where even smelt, and even some catfish were supposed to contain thiaminase.

Anyone know an accurate list of what fish contain thiaminase?


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

Eating Machine said:


> Anyone know an accurate list of what fish contain thiaminase?


Actually there is no such a list as any fish may contain thiaminase.
An example form the wild nature here.
In the Baltic Sea there are these two commercially (for human consumption) valuable fish species (among others):
Salmon (Salmo salar) and Baltic Herring (Clupea harengus membras).
In 1974 a new problem was found that caused Salmon fry to die at early stages. This was reported as increased fry death and it was reported to be the cause of a syndrome named M74 [which means miljö (environment) 1974]. It was not until early 1993-1994 when studies had shown that this M74 was caused by vitamin B1 (thiamine) deficiency in Salmon breeding stock. And the reason for this was shown to be due to an increased thiaminase (B1 breaking enzyme) concentration in the food Salmon eats. The food is Baltic herring and sprat (Sprattus sprattus). Thiaminase had concentrated into Salmon.
The food chain had changed somehow so that thiaminase being increased in herring and sprat.
The problem vanished by itself in 2002-2004.

Regards,


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## gopiqpp (Oct 19, 2005)

harrykaa said:


> Anyone know an accurate list of what fish contain thiaminase?


Actually there is no such a list as any fish may contain thiaminase.
[/quote]

There is such a list actually!
Here it is, and here is the link:

http://www.austinsturtlepage.com/Articles/Thiaminase.htm

Here is a selection from that page.

Quote:
Fish Reported to contain Thiaminase:
White Bass - Morone chrysops

Bowfin - Amia calva

Bream - Abramis brama (Not the U.S. fish; see this link).

Buffalofish - Ictiobus cyprinellus

Bullhead catfish - Ameiurus m. melas

Carp - Cyprinus carpio

Channel Catfish - Ictalurus punctatus

Fathead minnow - Pimephales promelas (the red rosy is a color morph of this fish!)

Garfish (Garpike)

Goldfish - Carassius auratus

Moray Eel - Gymnothorax ocellatus (since someone recently asked about keeping the brackish water species with turtles&#8230

Gizzard Shad - Dorosoma cepedianum

Spottail Shiner - Notropis hudsonius

Buckeye shiner - Notropis atherinoides

Central Stoneroller - Campostoma anomalum pullum

Common White Sucker - Catostomus commersoni

Lake Whitefish - Coregonus clupeiformis

So, even if you are not feeding goldfish as feeders you will still have to be sure that frozen fish that you get from the store does not come into the above category. !!

b. Fish Reported to not contain Thiaminase:

Largemouth Bass - Huro salmoides (I think that's actually now Micropterus salmoides)

Rock Bass - Ambloplites rupestris

Smallmouth Bass - Micropterus dolomieu

Bluegill - Lepomis macrochirus

Chub (Bloater) - Coregonus hoyi

Cod - Gadus morhua

Crappie - Pomoxis nigromaculatus

Eel - Anguilla rostrata

Northern Longnose Gar - Lepisosteus osseus oxyurus

Northern Pike - Esox lucius

Pumpkinseed - Lepomis gibbosus

Salmon - Salmo salar

Brown Trout - Salmo trutta fario

Lake Trout - Salvelinus namaycush

Rainbow Trout - Salmo gairdnerii irideus


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## Eating Machine (Jan 27, 2006)

Thanks for the link find.


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## Eating Machine (Jan 27, 2006)

I see channel catfish are on the list of Thiaminase containing fish.

I read where alot of people refuse to feed minnows and goldfish to their piranhas, and alot of people, some probably the same people, who feed catfish to them........

Also, has anyone heard if thiaminase is found in Smelt? I see its not on the list in the link posted above........but in the waterwolves thread, one guy remembers that smelt does contain thiaminase.

I found a pretty cheap source for frozen whole smelt and was thinking of investing in a block of them.


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## lament configuration (Jun 22, 2003)

thiamine is a necessary cofactor for thiamine pyrophosphate and w/o it, the piranha's cells will not be able to form acetyl-CoA for the krebs cycle and the fish will die.

in case anyone wanted the biochemical effects of feeding goldfish.


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## bc_buddah (Dec 18, 2005)

k ya, some fish contain thiaminase, i'll just call it B1 cuz thats what it is right? vitamin b1?

BUT even if goldfish do contain b1, wouldnt it b ok just to feed them one feeding of goldfish like once a month, maybe even once a week? once a week might b too much . . . i unno U TELL ME, i'm new , once every 3 weeks?

wouldnt that b ok? that shouldnt effect their growth right?


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## piranha_guy_dan (Oct 4, 2004)

bc_buddah said:


> k ya, some fish contain thiaminase, i'll just call it B1 cuz thats what it is right? vitamin b1?
> 
> BUT even if goldfish do contain b1, wouldnt it b ok just to feed them one feeding of goldfish like once a month, maybe even once a week? once a week might b too much . . . i unno U TELL ME, i'm new , once every 3 weeks?
> 
> wouldnt that b ok? that shouldnt effect their growth right?


why bother tho? why risk it......


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## therizman1 (Jan 6, 2006)

Just get them mollies or platies or swordtails... Petsmart has platies onsale for $1 a piece till June 24th...


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## bc_buddah (Dec 18, 2005)

therizman1 said:


> Just get them mollies or platies or swordtails... Petsmart has platies onsale for $1 a piece till June 24th...


in canada?


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## therizman1 (Jan 6, 2006)

bc_buddah said:


> Just get them mollies or platies or swordtails... Petsmart has platies onsale for $1 a piece till June 24th...


in canada?
[/quote]

Dont know about Canada, in the US though... just dont feed them goldfish, they are not that healthy, a rather fatty fish, contain growth inhibitors and carry diseases... why would you give your ps something like that!?!


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## bc_buddah (Dec 18, 2005)

therizman1 said:


> Just get them mollies or platies or swordtails... Petsmart has platies onsale for $1 a piece till June 24th...


in canada?
[/quote]

Dont know about Canada, in the US though... just dont feed them goldfish, they are not that healthy, a rather fatty fish, contain growth inhibitors and carry diseases... why would you give your ps something like that!?!
[/quote]

because i'm selfish and wrong . . . sorry . . . ur talkin 2 a guy who has 2 reds in a fish bowl ok


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