# Un Be Lievable



## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

This is soooo sad.









http://www.hsus.org/ace/20492


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## DigitalRhom (Oct 13, 2004)

I read about that also... very sad


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2004)

Mexico is a hopeless mess.


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

!


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## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

BE VERY cAREFULL WITH THESE STUPID ASSHOLE HSUS. they are just as bad if not worse the PETA. These guys OUT RIGHT LIE to the public and are masters of propagand.

curreently they are trying to BAND bear hunting in Maine. They also belive that fishing should be stoped and your pets should make you have the leagle title of "guardian" That word is UBER powerfull in the leagle sence. Here is the 
Bear link. What they dont show you is the entire leagle paper they drew up makeing it illeagle to hunt over nateral bait as well.

Look at these links!
smart people
must read
Even the Maine http://www.state.me.us/ifw/hunttrap/h-blackbear.htm]DIF&W[/url] are against it!

This orgainization has over 100 emplyies pulling over 100k a year to do this BS takeing the bulk of there money. They also get a lot of there money from people confusing them with the http://www.humanesociety.com/]humane society[/url] It is not an accedent they chose this name. Daman morons and Theives!!!


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## aaron07_20 (Apr 23, 2004)

I wish you wouldnt have posted this thread







I love sea turtles and hate see that crap...


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Phoenix, this has dick all to do with your issues against the Humane Society, keep it to yourself.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Okay, first off, are you saying it didn't happen???

Second off, did you hit your keyboard with a bat?

I didn't mean to rile anyone up (or upset anyone, sorry about that too), it's just interesting to note conservation issues that the world faces. I also don't mean any disrespect at all to Mexico, although their government has some issues (like ours doesn't! ).


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## shutter13 (Jun 23, 2004)

some people are just f*cking sick


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

Black 
your calling the HSUS worse than PETA
Thats a tad nutty man. There are very little if any comparisions.

Yes the HSUS is going a bit overboard and in some cases are giving in
to the Animal rights activists, but not all of the members agree with this
recent Influx of the Animal rights agenda.

Fact is there are alot of HSUS members that are not interested in it.
The purpose of the orginization is not being Highjacked to any significant degree.

Second your Links are not saying anything and not saying the full story
of what your saying.

What is being banned is Baiting, Hounding and trapping, all three are
inhumane and barbaric pratices and un-nessesary to the Management of 
the animals.

The current legality of such "Hunting" pratices is based on Money not
sound Management. These are weak ways to Kill an animal and show a lack
of respect for the animal you seek to kill. It is a known fact that commercial
"Hunting" outfitters have been making alot of money by baiting, Trapping and Hounding to guarentee their client a good clean Kill for a couple thousand dollars.

I hunt Myself, such practices to me are akin to a canned hunt.
It's trophy Killing, it is not Hunting.

To Turtles NOT bears:
The issues involving the conservation of these animals is becoming very serious,
Not just with Sea turtles but All turtles. Overcollection for food, Pets and "Medicine" as well as habitat loss, has reached a preportion where many species 
are in extreme peril. This situation dispite toughened laws is not getting better.
Turtles being a Non-charismatic animal are not getting the serious attention
needed worldwide.

The very low reproductive rates of these animals is not meeting with the demand
for them. It is a very serious issue that is only getting worse.


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## Atlanta Braves Baby! (Mar 12, 2003)

I think the people that kill animals like this should be killed too.


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## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

Your right that I can often become riled up and become incoherent in my posts at times







I'll have a go at trying to clarify what I was trying to get across in my former post, but first let me clarify about the sea turtles. I don't advocate the poaching of these creatures nor do I chastise the HSUS for standing up for them.

I was trying to make the point that very few things this group "stands" are black and white. The very poor attempt I made above was lacking most of which I base my opinion on. I took for granted that you guys have been hearing about this issue (bear referendum) nonstop for the past 4 months same as I have. The stance HSUS takes on bear hunting is that baiting is unethical and the bear population can continue to be maintained successfully through other hunting methodology. This is simple untrue. In there site they site Pa as other states as examples to prove this. Baiting in Pa is illegal yes, but forming a "drive" with 20 people beating brush is not, Here in Main that is not allowed nor is it possible on any large scale. Maine woods are huge (very few small isolated sections occur in the state were bear live) and are choked with underbrush making both drives and sight hunting them near imposable.

Wile bear baiting is unpalatable to some this doesn't make it wrong. Baiting allows many things to happen in a beneficial manor. When sitting over a bait you have a 99.5% chance of making sure that the animal is not a sow with cubs. Dose a drive or sight and shoot afford this opportunity with any amount of certainty? No. Baiting also allows a safe shot in a controlled environment. Baiting also puts the hunter in position to make an ethical shot assuring a fast and humane death. Now lets talk about the numbers associated with baiting, Well over 6million dollars is raised in the improvised areas of northern Maine every year buy the bear hunt. This figure dose not include retail sales, taxidermy or other avenues. Roughly 1.5 million dollars worth of funding could be directly lost from the DIF&W. In Maine despite what the law says the Department gets 100% of its money directly from license sales , The state dose not make up 25% from the general fund. 1.5 million is a lot of biologists and game wardens getting laid off. The other 6 plus million is a lot of jobs houses and ways of life gone forever. The northern half of the state is fueled by hunting fishing and logging. so It is not as if they can just find another job. Why do you think the young people in Maine leave the state at 4 times the national average? Even with bear baiting you only have a 1/4 chance of tagging out.

Is using a spinner or fly not "baiting" fish to bite? Shouldn't we really give the fish a better chance by putting a bare hook in the water.....I am sure a small percentage of people will still get lucky and catch fish. After applying for and receiving money from the state to better manage your land and make it better habitat for wildlife can you still hunt it? after all aren't you baiting the animals by improving a tract of land so they will come live there. Where dose it stop? All they are doing is taking baby steps up the latter to end all hunting and fishing.

The USUS and Fund For Animals (FFD) make up 94% of the funding for this effort. Leaders from both organizations have been quoted as saying their goal is to end all hunting, in all states. What dose all this typing I have just done have to do with my urgence for you to "BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THESE STUPID ASSHOLE HSUS"? It supports the claim that they are only interested in forfilling there own agenda and are not above using half truths and subterfuge to get it done. There being involved makes it necessary to look farther into the situation and not take them at face value just because they say 'this is the way it is'.

What dose all this have to directly do with turtles? Not a god damn thing I guess, unless the reputation of the organization making the report is important to you. If they are not against streching the truth or painting a picture in one instance what says they wont do it again? How can you ever be 100% certain they are telling the whole truth?


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## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

Polypterus said:


> What is being banned is Baiting, Hounding and trapping, all three are
> inhumane and barbaric pratices and un-nessesary to the Management of
> the animals.
> 
> ...


Poly Maine is the foremost authority on black bear biology, and the sound management their of. Or Biologist are routinely asked to survey other states populations and make recommendations based on their findings. The conservative population estimate of 23,000 animals is dead on with the departments assessment that Maine woods can only support 20-25K animals in a safe and healthy manor. Habitat, urban sprawl, forage and nuisance bear encounters, of course all important factor sin this "ideal" number. The IBA also supports baiting in a sound management program. This is an issue like most in today's world, a few people with an opinion about another's morals and a lot of money can make anything seem bad. Why should they get to dictate what is morally correct for me or anyone else?

Paying $1200 for a guide to put you on a site, which you sit perfectly still and silent on for 6 hours plus a day for 6 days for a 1/4 chance to shoot a bear is hardly caned. Now lets through into mix the 30 hours the guide puts into the site before you get there, then the week working with you wile your are there (feeding you cleaning your room, entertaining you during the day) then add the week away from work you had to take off .........this really isn't a point and click hunt.

What's so wrong with caned hunts? Is it better to have an animal run free range of thousands of acres then meet its end quick , or to grow up in a fence then having a "knocker" taken to your skull to stun you wile your throat is slit? the trophy hunter takes the meat and the antlers home and is happy. The farmer take the meat an leftovers and sells them thus content. Some people like my girlfriend of 7 years are vegetarians. Should they be able to "buy" a law into place that makes it morally wrong to eat meat? Of course not, You don't think eating meat is right don't eat it, let me make that call. It's the same idea in a similar context. 
Just because someone thinks using doughnuts and grease to shoot a bear or earth worms to catch a fish or hiring a guide to do the dirty work for you is "unfair" or unsporting don't make it illegal or wrong to do so. If people don't like those things don't do them.









EDIT: PS The "you"s and "they"s are nonspecific generalizations and not directed to anyone in particular.


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## Death in #'s (Apr 29, 2003)

dam frigin monsters


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## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

acestro said:


> Okay, first off, are you saying it didn't happen???
> 
> Second off, did you hit your keyboard with a bat?


 No I am sure it is perfectly possible that this happened, and don't doubt it for a second.

Hehe yeah pretty much







Smashed it good!


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Um, not sure how I feel about bears. Personally I don't see carnivores as things we really need to hunt. But, honestly, I'm not even touching that issue!

I'm glad your typing skills returned though! Good thought out comments..... but not about turtles on Mexican beaches!!!

Only other thing:


> Is using a spinner or fly not "baiting" fish to bite? Shouldn't we really give the fish a better chance by putting a bare hook in the water


Come on! If you really want to make that comparison.... wait, how about we start three other threads, we got lost here.


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## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

acestro said:


> Come on! If you really want to make that comparison.... wait, how about we start three other threads, we got lost here.


 last off topic post I promise. These are not my words, this is the thought process of those that see baiting bear as unethical. After all don't you "bait" almost every thing you hunt or fish for in some way? grunt calls, worms, scents, ect.....see what I am getting at. Where is the line drawn and who gets to decide. It's a slippery slope to go down, one that I don't wish to see with any momentum behind it.


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## jeepman784 (Jan 8, 2004)

man, i can't believe that someone would take eggs right out of a turtle... don't they know those will grow up to be REAL turtles someday...

taking embryos out of people for research is ok tho?

weird world we live in


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## indecisive (Apr 1, 2004)

jeepman784 said:


> man, i can't believe that someone would take eggs right out of a turtle... don't they know those will grow up to be REAL turtles someday...
> 
> taking embryos out of people for research is ok tho?
> 
> weird world we live in


 people aren't an endangered species.


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## BoomerSub (Jun 23, 2003)

indecisive said:


> jeepman784 said:
> 
> 
> > man, i can't believe that someone would take eggs right out of a turtle... don't they know those will grow up to be REAL turtles someday...
> ...


 My .sig is strangely relevant here.

-PK


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## jeepman784 (Jan 8, 2004)

indecisive said:


> jeepman784 said:
> 
> 
> > man, i can't believe that someone would take eggs right out of a turtle... don't they know those will grow up to be REAL turtles someday...
> ...


 yea, i guess you're right.. maybe we should open up a hunting season on us then huh?

just stating, animal life seems more important than human life quite often


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## indecisive (Apr 1, 2004)

jeepman784 said:


> indecisive said:
> 
> 
> > jeepman784 said:
> ...


 I don't understand how your point on embryo research has any connection to animal life seeming more important than human life? In most cases embryo's taken are used for research that will provide us with useful information and help the human race in some form or another, whereas the eggs taken from the turtles are taken for profit and no other reason.


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

jeepman784 said:


> indecisive said:
> 
> 
> > jeepman784 said:
> ...


 You seem to be a bit confused on two things. First is that people don't run around cutting embryos out of people against their will for research. Comparing stem cell research to illegal harvesting of endangered species embryos is idiotic. Very idiotic.

Second is the topic of this thread, TURTLES. Stick to it.


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## BoomerSub (Jun 23, 2003)

jeepman784 said:


> man, i can't believe that someone would take eggs right out of a turtle... don't they know those will grow up to be REAL turtles someday...
> 
> taking embryos out of people for research is ok tho?
> 
> weird world we live in


 It's also worth pointing out that most of the embryos that would be used for stem cell research would come from leftovers from in vitro fertilization treatments, which produce more embryos than will ever be used. THese are either thrown out when no longer needed or are kept frozen in liquid N2 for a few years before being thrown out. They are not conscious, they are not self-aware, they have no brain. They cannot suffer.

Why not extract what we can from them first, if we're just going to throw them out anyway?

-PK


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Judas Priest! Two off topic turns.... That's it.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

sad sad sad









but damn it, dont post so long, you know how long it took me to read


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## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

lol


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## SiameseDream (Sep 7, 2003)

whoop dee doo


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## Ashfury (Oct 3, 2004)

something should be done about that someone should put a patition together


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## pamonster (Jun 26, 2003)

we watched a video about that in one of my ecology classes, its sad


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## janus (Oct 28, 2004)

!


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