# Do albino piranhas exist????



## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Do albino piranhas exist??? This is something I have been thinking about for over a year&#8230; When I first heard P. Ternetzi and P.Natteri were the same genetically similar I thought it could be an albino&#8230; I was informed it is not&#8230; I Hope the source was reliable&#8230; This brings me to the topic of discussion
Since so many reds have been bred, why hasn't the albino gene appeared? I used to be into snakes really big in the 90's&#8230; That's why I wonder&#8230; I can understand like the snake, existence in the wild would be slim, because of lack of camaflaouge&#8230; But over the countless times of captive breeding why has this albino gene not appeared, and the piranhas separated, and the albino produced on a marketing level??? Has anyone ever heard of an albino piranha????? If they exist I want one, what-ever the cost is I will pay it&#8230;Most other fish can be found in LFS in albino form?????


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## kouma (Sep 1, 2003)

very interesting topic, looking forward for the replies, Frank?


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Albino piranha's do exist, but the only species I know of are redbellies (have a look at the P. nattereri page on OPEFE to see pics). But if I remember correctly, they were no true albino's - they were indeed lighter colored, and had reds eyes (as do all 'normal' redbellies have), but weren't true albino's nonetheless...


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

I am looking more along the lines of true albino&#8230; They eye should be pink, because of the absence of pigmentation&#8230; you are actually seeing through the eye an onto the retina&#8230;In most captive breeding projects multiple bleedings will eventually produce this true albino genetic quality&#8230;. Has this true genetic quality showed up in captive breed piranhas????? If not why???? If so where are the fish???? I don't want to get too much into snakes, but this was a normal occurrence through many people breeding the animal&#8230; Every now and then the albino would just appear without cause&#8230; It in turn could be isolated, and raised to adult hood, and another could be created&#8230;
This genetic-morphing occurs on lower chained, and higher chained organism&#8230;.Why not the piranha????? This albino characteristic occurs to many species of fish. I am definitely not talking along the lines of depriving the fish of ultra violet rays&#8230; I am talking about a definite genetic quality&#8230; That can eventually be bred out&#8230; Creating what some call a hybrid


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> serrasalmus_collector Posted on Oct 10 2003, 04:06 PM
> I am looking more along the lines of true albino&#8230; They eye should be pink, because of the absence of pigmentation&#8230; you are actually seeing through the eye an onto the retina&#8230;In most captive breeding projects multiple bleedings will eventually produce this true albino genetic quality&#8230;. Has this true genetic quality showed up in captive breed piranhas????? If not why???? If so where are the fish???? I don't want to get too much into snakes, but this was a normal occurrence through many people breeding the animal&#8230; Every now and then the albino would just appear without cause&#8230; It in turn could be isolated, and raised to adult hood, and another could be created&#8230;
> This genetic-morphing occurs on lower chained, and higher chained organism&#8230;.*Why not the piranha????? *This albino characteristic occurs to many species of fish. I am definitely not talking along the lines of depriving the fish of ultra violet rays&#8230; I am talking about a definite genetic quality&#8230; That can eventually be bred out&#8230; Creating what some call a hybrid


2 words.........Natural Selection.

Piranas devour "inferior" members of their group. You will see it in your breeding piranas. They kill off the runts, the ones with less color or spotting. Certainly if any "albinos" were to make it in, they would be eaten. So you have a big percentange prevented a "true" albino to surface. In your aquario, you might be able to "control" the killing. That is how I saved my bent nose (deformed P. nattereri) from being eaten by its brothers and sisters. But it takes a good eye to see the morphological differences and vigilence. From large spawnings, there might be an albino there, though I have not seen one in over 40 years but do beleive there might be one out there. Certainly would be worth more than a common red belly. But chances are good, the would be sterile, but nature does fool us.

As for the related story about the "albino P. nattereri". The fish purported to be an albino was raised from juvenile to adult (one of the home grown "ternetzi's" produced by Bud Guyer and sold to this hobbyist) with no light in the aquarium or room. Basically kept in a basement if I remember correctly. The fish lost most of its pigment (as any fish would). Photos are available under P. nattereri at OPEFE web site if you care to explore more. In any case, the fish was NOT an albino as much as the story took off with that theme. I think the fish now belongs to Elongatus (Matt) who bought it from Jason Bolin who bought it from the original hobbyist after the initial reports of it being "albino".


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Excuse my spelling, because I know it sucks.
Albino p's do exist. The reason that an albino p has not come out from the breaders is simple. They use the same p's over and over to reproduce the fry. In order for a albino p to be created, there first must be a dormet gene on the DNA ladder (which is very rare). Then, and only then does a p have the chance to reproduce and create an albino offspring. Then chances of that happening are something like 10x-10. An albino p has been born in the wild, the only problem is that since it is white, it is much more attrative to other p's (case in point, p's like bright colored fish ie. goldfish) to eat. In order to find a p that has an albino dormet gene, you will have to genically test each p. To creat the highest percent of success, one would have to find two p's with the dorment gene to raise the chances of being successful in reproduction. Thus, for the highest rate of finding an albino p one would have to contact multple different breaders that use different p's every time them reproduce. Don't worry, it is only a matter of time before one shows up. The only problem with that is, it will more than likely be mistaken for a wrong identifaction. Just keep looking.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Damn you are pretty smart&#8230;I wonder if any have been produced, and killed in fry state from there brotherin??? Just something I have been thinking about&#8230; There must have been millions of piranha's captive breed since the 80's&#8230;. With those numbers, statistically the albino should have formed???? I bet the day they catch on in the wild, it will me the most expensive piranha&#8230; I really want one, to experiment with bringing it our through selective breeding&#8230;&#8230;
Thanks for the info&#8230;.Isn't the gene present, but recessive in all fish&#8230;. I am not a genetic engineer&#8230; I thought there was always a slim chance if it becoming dominant and manifest itself as albino&#8230; Let me know if you find any information on the fish&#8230;


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

The gene is recessive and using lightly colored fish (F1) over time could strain out the anomoly you need to produce albino. Keep in mind, as I said, the stronger will eat the weaker and albinos are considered "weak" so unless you have a good eye and can spot them after hatching, your chances are very slim in capturing one before its demise.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Damn&#8230; I need money&#8230; That's the type of mad experiment I would love to embark on&#8230;. With about 700 5 gallon tanks, and 2 dividers per tank 100% of all spawns could be salvaged. By salvaging 100% of the fish, a closer look could be taken @ 2 inches&#8230;Separation my minimal spotting could yield this albino; over the next 5 years&#8230;.If I come into $$$$







I will look into this possible phenomenon with my spawning S.Maculatus&#8230;.

PS&#8230; If anyone can fund the operation can I have the albino&#8230;LOL


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Assuming you can rescue that one in a million.


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## khuzhong (Apr 11, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Assuming you can rescue that one in a million.


 hehe.. if we keep doubting him.. he'll go mad and do it.. :smile:


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

rockon and good luck


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## wrathofgeo (Aug 23, 2003)

i dont know of a species that doesnt have an albino recessive gene...


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

*wrathofgeo*

That was the entire basis of my posting&#8230; Why hasn't and albino piranha been produced????? And why haven't they be mass produced through selective breeding???
Hard to believe none have escaped the cannibalism of there bortherin&#8230; and been caught by fishermen????? 
To see is to believe, and i want to see one!!!!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> serrasalmus_collector Posted on Oct 10 2003, 08:28 PM
> wrathofgeo
> 
> *That was the entire basis of my posting&#8230; Why hasn't and albino piranha been produced????? And why haven't they be mass produced through selective breeding???*
> ...


Natural Selection


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Let me put to you in a different way.....your spawn can produce 200-600 PLUS eggs. Albinoism should it surface would have to be culled out during the yolk phase. Think about it. Can you expend that much time searching out fry by fry that one fish? You could spend a lifetime and never see one. Once the yolk is absorbed then process of natural selection begins.

My last comment here is: Good Luck


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

I only have one thing to add… This if for you Frank…. What became of the one and only one you haven’t seen in 40 years???? That must have been a wonderful thing…I think the fish you were fortunate enough to view, was one on the rarest piranhas ever seen to man….I genetic Hybrid…. I wish I had seen such a wonderful fish…..


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

You misread or I didn't clarify this remark well enough: _though *I have not seen one* in over 40 years but do beleive there might be one out there._

It should have read..... NEVER seen one in over 40 years......

Thanks for correcting me.









PS: Fink who has more experience in seeing them (piranas) has never seen albino one either nor any other field researcher.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

Sorry my error for misinterpretation&#8230; Sometimes text can convey multiple meanings&#8230; Remember you are the teacher, and I am the student&#8230;







I have a great hunger for knowledge of these piranha&#8230;.I want to learn as much as I can comprehend, and that my friend is a whole lot&#8230;..
Hopefully by manipulating the various properties of my home aquarium, I may learn to breed other species&#8230;As of now.. I remain silent on my experiments...


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## boxer (Sep 11, 2003)

It's like finding a human with a 6th finger, it's possible but it doesn't happen too often. Billions of people out there and you rarely see albino people, billions of fish out there and you'll never see one


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## Tommy V (Jul 18, 2003)

boxer said:


> It's like finding a human with a 6th finger, it's possible but it doesn't happen too often. Billions of people out there and you rarely see albino people, billions of fish out there and you'll never see one


 Doesn't Bill Cosby have a sixth finger?


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## wrathofgeo (Aug 23, 2003)

Tommy V said:


> boxer said:
> 
> 
> > It's like finding a human with a 6th finger, it's possible but it doesn't happen too often. Billions of people out there and you rarely see albino people, billions of fish out there and you'll never see one
> ...


 ...


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

someone needs to get into selectively breeding piranha, imagine the potential that piraya has. Designer Ps


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## peter101 (Oct 5, 2003)

how much you would you pay for an albino natt?... that is if the person who bred one was willing to take best ofer


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

boxer said:


> It's like finding a human with a 6th finger, it's possible but it doesn't happen too often. Billions of people out there and you rarely see albino people, billions of fish out there and you'll never see one


 Boxer has the best example, nice insight Boxer :nod:


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## Atlanta Braves Baby! (Mar 12, 2003)

Very interesting guys, thanks for the info!


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## tinyteeth (Mar 12, 2003)

waht if the fry is weak and is eaten before it could even reach a tenth of an inch?


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

:nod: it is possible for a albino piranha to excist but it would be hard to fine. for all we know there could be a spceale piranha in antartica whating to be found. i was wondering if there was an albino scorpion but the only one found was one which lived in the salt flats and it turned white to blend in. i would pay $$$$$$$


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## mlee965 (Aug 23, 2003)

wow...40 years of research on piranhas


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## AzNP (May 21, 2003)

if the albino came out of a regular hatch then i would pay TOP dollars
if it was selectively bred... $0


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## perrogoma (Oct 1, 2003)

AzNP said:


> if the albino came out of a regular hatch then i would pay TOP dollars
> if it was selectively bred... $0


 wow you're a bad ass, like it f*cking matters.


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## tecknik (Jul 18, 2003)

Great info!


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## InSinUAsian (Jan 3, 2003)

There are many reasons that you dont see albino P's out there. Frank has already touched on the biggest reason, which is natural selection, but there is also another reason. Many of the P's that are tank bred are to some degree "bred from the same stock". The genetic diversity needed to produce the double recessive allele for abininsm is almost impossible to get in tank bred P's. There is just not the genetic diversity to get such a combination. Perhaps if more wild P's (reds) were imported and those stock were used for breeding, then perhaps we would see some F1 or, more likely F2, that were albino. But while we keep the breeding of P's to mainly those that were tank bred themselves, we will always limit the genetic diversity needed to produce "true albinos".

~Dj


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## boxer (Sep 11, 2003)

Coldfire said:


> boxer said:
> 
> 
> > It's like finding a human with a 6th finger, it's possible but it doesn't happen too often. Billions of people out there and you rarely see albino people, billions of fish out there and you'll never see one
> ...










well i stole the 6th finger example from a marine biology teacher hehe. if u don't understand what frank or insinuasian is saying, they are basically trying to say, the babies are inbreds! basically all the piranhas come from 1 ma and pa, father abraham


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## pcrose (Mar 9, 2003)

I Like these topics I learn quite a lot fromo them
thanks guys


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

To many inbreds, there has to be more pairs being made before an albino will apear.


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## fishofury (May 10, 2003)

Very interesting topic and informative information.


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## vanz (Sep 11, 2003)

Gargoyle has a while piranha on his avatar...is that real or is that altered?


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

Just skimming through the thread, suprised nobody posted this guy..

Ill attach them, cause I dont think it will let me hotlink them.

This guy was originally owned by Jason Bolin, now in the hands of Matt (elongatus) at pfish.


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

sdfasfsd


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

sdfsdfsdf


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## vanz (Sep 11, 2003)

that's pretty nuts


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

That is the Guyer bred fish I wrote about above. That is NO ALBINO.


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

Drew said:


> Just skimming through the thread


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## Skeelo (Sep 23, 2003)

:laugh: Albino pigeons exist... Here's one I saw while waiting for the bus the other day..


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