# Going to try to BREED Piraya



## CROSSHAIR223

Hello all. Been a while since I've been here but does anyone happen to know where I can get my hands on some Piraya??? I'm wanting 6 to 8 to try and breed. It's been so long since I've been here that I tried looking for the selling section and couldn't find. I'm selling or trading my 2 pair of breeding red bellies if anyone is interested and getting rid of my other 8" RB's as well. Any info would greatly help!!!


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## RBPIRANHA 1

u could make another topic in the classified forums :nod: how many gallons will the tank be? hollywood tried to breed his but it was unsuccessful. (hollywood is in the breeding team) pirayas are aggressive. read piraya piranha in opefe. it's a recommendation you breed them in a 200 or more or 500 or more







good luck!


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## CROSSHAIR223

Lol I've always been able to breed in much smaller spaces than what is said you should do. Give ya an idea of what I mean. I constanly breed two pairs of almost 5inch long RB's together in a 55gal. Rather than big spaces I've gotten used to what they like and keeping them happy as I guess a fish can be. But I will try and start a new thread! Thanks!!!


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## etb

Pedro is selling the size PIRAYA that your looking for just look to your right.


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## CROSSHAIR223

Yeah I called Pedro and he had only 6 and I haven't been able to get ahold of again. I'm hoping on him still having some. Last time I talked with him he had exactly 6. LOL I still have the same problem of getting rid of my current mated pairs and the 3 left over. I was just hoping there was another place incase Pedro doesn't have enough by the next time I get ahold of him.


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## sigurds11

I have had 3 rb's for about 4 years now. They grew up in a pentagon corner tank, but I recently put them in a standard 55 gal due to a water leak.

Anyway, after 4 years they just started breeding. They have been laying eggs about once every 2 weeks. I have fry all over my tank in different sizes. It's crazy!!!!


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## CROSSHAIR223

NICE NICE! Sounds like your fish are gonna be like mine. Better get a couple of tanks for fry and the older babies. LOL if yours are like mine plan on calling some LSF cause they aren't gonna stop for a couple of months! Congrats!


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## pinchy

mine have been breeding for the past 6 months or so. they just keep going


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## CROSSHAIR223

When yours stop let me know how long they wait to reset. That is, if you don't mind. Reason I ask is because mine breed hardcore for right at 5 to 6 months then they take a couple week vacation before going back at it. LOL take her easy!


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## sigurds11

CROSSHAIR223 said:


> When yours stop let me know how long they wait to reset. That is, if you don't mind. Reason I ask is because mine breed hardcore for right at 5 to 6 months then they take a couple week vacation before going back at it. LOL take her easy!
> [snapback]1028138[/snapback]​


How big did your fry get without moving them. Right now I have 4 or 5 that are starting to form a tail, insides, bigger eyes and an open mouth. I decided to leave them in the tank to see what happens. Do you think they will get eaten soon even if well fed??


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## Judazzz

CROSSHAIR223 said:


> Lol I've always been able to breed in much smaller spaces than what is said you should do. Give ya an idea of what I mean. I constanly breed two pairs of almost 5inch long RB's together in a 55gal. Rather than big spaces I've gotten used to what they like and keeping them happy as I guess a fish can be. But I will try and start a new thread! Thanks!!!
> [snapback]1024915[/snapback]​


Some people have tried this before, in very large tanks (150g or up), and failed: sooner or later the fish tried to or actually managed to kill each other.
Piraya seem to be much more agressive during breeding than Reds, so you will definitely need a very large tank to get your attempt started.
Considering the extremely hefty price of sexually mature Piraya, I doubt dumping a few of them in a small(ish) tank is the way to go. Once you have a proven pair, you could relocate them to a smaller tank, but to get things started, you'll need a good amount of adult Piraya and a very large tank...

Good luck


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## CROSSHAIR223

I'm getting some 3" from Pedro then growing them up together to try and get a mated pair. I'm gonna start with 6. I've done my homework on their behavior and I have multiple tanks. The first sign of them outgrowing or being aggressive to on another I'm splitting them up. Sorry, I realize I should of thrown my plan up here cause otherwise I sound like a fool or just someone who's cruel throwing a bunch of pirayas into a small space.


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## RBPIRANHA 1

CROSSHAIR223 said:


> I'm getting some 3" from Pedro then growing them up together to try and get a mated pair. I'm gonna start with 6. I've done my homework on their behavior and I have multiple tanks. The first sign of them outgrowing or being aggressive to on another I'm splitting them up. Sorry, I realize I should of thrown my plan up here cause otherwise I sound like a fool or just someone who's cruel throwing a bunch of pirayas into a small space.
> [snapback]1030853[/snapback]​


how many gallons will it be for the 6 3inchers?







well good luck


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## CROSSHAIR223

I'll start them out with 15 gallons a pop at 3 inches. I'll see what happens. If need be I have bigger tanks to increase up to 30 gallons per fish.


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## redbelly93

CROSSHAIR223 said:


> I'll start them out with 15 gallons a pop at 3 inches. I'll see what happens. If need be I have bigger tanks to increase up to 30 gallons per fish.
> [snapback]1031444[/snapback]​


Dude I pmed ya I can hook you up . trust me I just got a piraya today


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## benJii

good luck, itll be a great accomplishment for the entire piranha community to have tank bred pirayas so the prices can go down


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## serrasalmus_collector

Good luck my friend. I have seen many posts about them being hard to keep together when young. But, I personally have not had a problem. I have embarked on the same mission you have. March 2004 I purchased 16 to raise up and attempt to breed. They were all less than 2 inches. I loss one to screwing up my feeding schedule, but 14 months later I still have 15 +2 catfish in a 100 gallon tank. It's not a big accomplishment yet, but I do want you to know the fish can be raised up together. Not including the occasional feeders, that comes down to just under 6 gallons of water per fish<*Over 1 year of time*>. I don't recommend giving your fish such limited gallonage per fish, but it can be accomplished, and is currently occurring in a hobbyist tank.

Here is a pic from last month of a recent body count. They were just starting to darken in coloration.

View attachment 61964


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## hastatus

None of what has been discussed in this thread is being addressed. Namely you are going to need (more than likely) much more than a 55g or 200g to breed P. piraya. Putting groups of them together will to a small degree cause a pairing, assuming they are of opposite sex, but since there are no external sexual signs, you are still batting 50/50. Comparing P. nattereri, a much smaller species to P. piraya, is like comparing S. maculatus to S. rhombeus. Their requirements are different.

You can ignore the science if you wish, but it also seems common sense is also being ignored and certainly assumptions abound at looking at these fish for a few weeks or months and making claims that are out of touch with the fishes biological and physiological needs. Jonas has covered one aspect of it quite well. As SC stated, much of what he is showing via the photo proves nothing. And has nothing to do with this topic of breeding piraya.

So there you have it.


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## serrasalmus_collector

I was more addressing his ideas of growing them up together. I was pointing out that it can be done successfully. I want to share experiences and help anyway I can in the growth from small to adult. This is all that has been accomplished in my home; I am moving into a new home in less than 2 weeks. My personal piraya collection will move into a 300 gallon tank for a month, and then end in a 700 gallon tank being built in my new home. The goals and personal ideas of breeding my colony were laid out over a year ago.

Before any breeding can occur the fish must 1st be grown up until they have reached the proper stage of sexual maturation. This I can give advice and information on, because I have accomplished it. As for the breeding. I have not done it, and can not give advice. Perhaps I am doing something very correct, and deserve rights to have my statements heard. There is not statistics matrix anyone can apply to the number of fish, and time they have been together; and validate I do not know how to keep them together and alive.

It saddens me when I see people post about loosing small piraya and don't know why. I purposely purchased my fish because of post, and online information..

Many people have lost young piraya, and this interests me. I am very curious to why, and I don't believe it's from stressed feeders. My dry season simulation had over 70 feeders cramped with my fish for almost a month. Due to the metabolic changes initiated in the piraya, they ironically stopped eating. That is a fact. They lived in a 100 gallon tank for roughly 3 weeks with 50 feeders, and ate nothing; and had no water change. There were a few nips, but that should be expected from anyone who groups piraya together.

You will be dealing with wild fish, and need to understand how oxygen content and temperature can relate directly to the metabolic rate of the fish. This is an interesting direction, but has brought me success. Here is a link to an out lined *experiment* from an accredited university explaining the relationship; you can perform this with goldfish. You may want to read it. If it is confusing you can post or PM me. It is somewhat a fact that when piranhas have an elevated metabolic rate aggression to tank mates can increase. Metabolic shifts are also the direction my breeding experiments are taking. Their dry season and rainy seasons in the wild have these shifts. This is a common practice in the breeding of snakes from south America.

*The link*

PS. I am not talking about a few months. My P.Piraya have been together 14 months. They have grown from 1.5 inches to 7.5 inches.:nod:


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## Judazzz

serrasalmus_collector said:


> I don't recommend giving your fish such limited gallonage per fish, *but it can be accomplished*, and is currently occurring in a hobbyist tank.
> 
> View attachment 61964
> 
> [snapback]1031830[/snapback]​


Accomplishing what?








People keep more Pygo's in similar or even smaller tanks, but the fish staying alive doesn't mean anything. It certainly isn't the ideal situation to get a breeding pair - too overcrowded and too stressful. And we're talking about juveniles/sub-adults here, so these fish haven't even started to exhibit breeding behaviour, let alone the territorial and/or agression behaviour that comes naturally with it.
People have kept much smaller shoals of mature Piraya's in much larger tanks, and even those attempts were fruitless - to save the fish, they had to be separated.


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## serrasalmus_collector

Based on the size my fish were when purchased, I would have to say they are a minimum of 1.5 years old. I want to be prepared when, they reach sexual maturity with should in theory be some where between now, and August. On the contrary there has been pairing, darkening, and ripping spawning materials apart. And I don't just mean slapping tails. They made a bush, one became extremely dark, and they sat in the bush for several days. The dark fish would charge at any fish that came within 2 feet of the area. This has been occurring for the past 2 months. My statements were about sharing my information possibly give ideas to keeping the Piraya alive. There is an un godly amount of information about juvenile Piraya being vicious to tank mates. My fish are definitely past that an in the sub adult stages.

If you will read this link on OPEFE. It states.
*Dangers raising piraya from juvinile to sub adult*

*Recommend keeping as a solitary species when juvenile to sub-adult*

I have taken my fish past the juvenile stages and just sharing experiences. No one has to do anything that I have done with my fish. But perhaps knowing someone is here who has successfully done it, can bring some comfort in times of struggle.

PS
Until they have successfully been bred with repeatability any hobbyist with an outlined breeding program, and who has managed to keep their fish alive is headed in the correct directions. Keeping the fish together and avoiding cannibalism should be the primary objective. Only once that is achieved with success can breeding occur. Well that's my personal opinion and the path I choose to take. Generating pairs and separation is a later phase in any breeding project.


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## hastatus

1. goldfish and piranhas are not the same thing. Their common rests on being cold-blooded. While that experiment is interesting in that it talks about goldfish vs. warm blooded animals, it covers nothing that hasn't already been covered in great detail about temperature and surroundings in 'layman' terms in how it applies to piranhas.

2. I agree, it is your opinion, your tanks and your assumptions.

3. Good luck.


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## serrasalmus_collector

Judazzz said:


> serrasalmus_collector said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't recommend giving your fish such limited gallonage per fish, *but it can be accomplished*, and is currently occurring in a hobbyist tank.
> 
> View attachment 61964
> 
> [snapback]1031830[/snapback]​
> 
> 
> 
> Accomplishing what?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People keep more Pygo's in similar or even smaller tanks, *but the fish staying alive doesn't mean anything.* It certainly isn't the ideal situation to get a breeding pair - too overcrowded and too stressful. And we're talking about juveniles/sub-adults here, so these fish haven't even started to exhibit breeding behaviour, let alone the territorial and/or agression behaviour that comes naturally with it.
> People have kept much smaller shoals of mature Piraya's in much larger tanks, and even those attempts were fruitless - to save the fish, they had to be separated.
> [snapback]1032020[/snapback]​
Click to expand...

I dis-agree. If you can't keep them alive how can you breed them. The statement staying alive means nothing???? Dead fish can not naturally breed. I am sharing my experiences.

Note on the experiment:
*Oxygen Consumption and Metabolic Rate: Effects of Body Size and Temperature in Aquatic Animals*

Metabolic rate of poikilothermic animals such as fish are dependent on a number of environmental factors such as temperature, oxygen, light, season, etc.

Opening statement pertains to fish in general. The goldfish are used as an example to perform the experiment and undertand the realtionship. I do not reccomend people perform this with piranhas, because they can loose them.

I have personally grown P.Piraya from very small to subadult. If the information is pointless, then I will let another member who has done the same thing share their experiences. Most of the experiences I find online result in many deaths, I have but one. And no deaths or casualties in well over 8 months; this 8 months is the most dangerous time.

My fish were pourposly put in a condensed population to allow me smaller fish to attempt the breeding. There is no need to discuss growth inhibiting chemicals.

I wish the member the best luck in raising this fish up.


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## MR HARLEY

Back and fourth , and back and fourth , Thats all I ever see around here lately.

Frank Have you breed piraya Before ? 
And If You havent, How can you touch on it yourself ? Because what you have science you canspeak on it / but no Personnel expierence ?

~Everyone~ 
How about helping him succeed and grow for the "Hobby" instead of getting off on your personnel vendetas of what you think is right or wrong .

We all have different outcomes in our aquariums and if its working and pics and vids are being provided , how can one Discriminate ?


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## hastatus

> MR HARLEY Posted Today, 10:05 AM
> Back and fourth , and back and fourth , Thats all I ever see around here lately.
> 
> Frank Have you breed piraya Before ?
> And If You havent, How can you touch on it yourself ? Because what you have science you canspeak on it / but no Personnel expierence ?
> 
> *Of course I have not bred P. piraya, and in saying that, NEITHER HAVE YOU or your pal Alan. :laugh: And yes, I have the science and that governs my opinions on this matter. Could also be why a vast audience reads OPEFE to gather such information to help. *
> 
> ~Everyone~
> How about helping him succeed and grow for the "Hobby" instead of getting off on your personnel vendetas of what you think is right or wrong .
> 
> *What personal vendetta is that? I simply addressed Alan's gold fish link that had nothing to do with breeding P. piraya. The obvious is that you must keep a pair of fish together in order for them to breed. I assume you lost that message somewhere in those long winded posts.*
> 
> We all have different outcomes in our aquariums and if its working and pics and vids are being provided , how can one Discriminate ?
> 
> *Very simple, Alan's experience is limited by just 3 years and breeding basically one species. There's nothing wrong with that. But he (like others) make assumptions based on that success as if P. piraya will follow some rock-hard rule. These are animals, not machines. And photographs are just moments in time and offer little other than ooo's and ahhhh's. That my friend is the reality. I might as well video tape my tub and state, wow my fish are getting along. See that's proof.*


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## MR HARLEY

[/QUOTE]


hastatus said:


> MR HARLEY Posted Today, 10:05 AM
> Back and fourth , and back and fourth , Thats all I ever see around here lately.
> 
> Frank Have you breed piraya Before ?
> And If You havent, How can you touch on it yourself ? Because what you have science you canspeak on it / but no Personnel expierence ?
> 
> *Of course I have not bred P. piraya, and in saying that, NEITHER HAVE YOU or your pal Alan. :laugh: And yes, I have the science and that governs my opinions on this matter. Could also be why a vast audience reads OPEFE to gather such information to help. *
> 
> ~Everyone~
> How about helping him succeed and grow for the "Hobby" instead of getting off on your personnel vendetas of what you think is right or wrong .
> 
> *What personal vendetta is that? I simply addressed Alan's gold fish link that had nothing to do with breeding P. piraya. The obvious is that you must keep a pair of fish together in order for them to breed. I assume you lost that message somewhere in those long winded posts.*
> 
> We all have different outcomes in our aquariums and if its working and pics and vids are being provided , how can one Discriminate ?
> 
> *Very simple, Alan's experience is limited by just 3 years and breeding basically one species. There's nothing wrong with that. But he (like others) make assumptions based on that success as if P. piraya will follow some rock-hard rule. These are animals, not machines. And photographs are just moments in time and offer little other than ooo's and ahhhh's. That my friend is the reality. I might as well video tape my tub and state, wow my fish are getting along. See that's proof.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [snapback]1032386[/snapback]​
Click to expand...




> NEITHER HAVE YOU or your pal Alan.


Hearty Har har frank , Quote one time I have ever Said or tried to Breed Piraya ? 
And Every Hobbyist is My friend , You should try it and come off the high horse you are on . 


> And yes, I have the science and that governs my opinions
> on this matter.


If So than why are others not having problems in there tank ?

and How come all your sanchezi got eaten ? Hmm theres a Thought .



> Could also be why a vast audience reads OPEFE to gather such information to help.


There ya go agian with the self-praise , Like we already dont know that you rule the world in your mind .










> I might as well video tape my tub and state, wow my fish are getting along


How can Ya you pulled the plug on it so soon , and never really stated why ya did it , plus how can you make assumtions when your fish were only kept together for such a short time ? See your so called success or non sucess was only for a short time .. See theres My Proof


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## Grosse Gurke

MR HARLEY said:


> Back and fourth , and back and fourth , Thats all I ever see around here lately.


Isnt that the basis if a discussion? I dont see what would be accomplished by agreement on every subject. I also didnt see any anger in any post...just a simple disagreement. 


> Frank Have you breed piraya Before ?
> And If You havent, How can you touch on it yourself ? Because what you have science you canspeak on it / but no Personnel expierence ?


Exactly who has bred piraya? ....so until someone actually breeds them in a home aquarium everything is simple speculation.



> ~Everyone~
> How about helping him succeed and grow for the "Hobby" instead of getting off on your personnel vendetas of what you think is right or wrong .


If you feel someone is giving inaccurate information should you simply agree with them because you have had personal difference in the past? Im not sure what you are getting at here. Sure...every time Frank and Alan disagree it will look to some like it is something personal....but what if it is just a difference of opinion? 


> We all have different outcomes in our aquariums and if its working and pics and vids are being provided , how can one Discriminate ?
> [snapback]1032333[/snapback]​


Discriminate has a conotation that has no justified use in this thread.....


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## hastatus

> MR HARLEY Posted Today, 10:38 AM
> 
> QUOTE(hastatus @ May 19 2005, 10:28 AM)
> QUOTE
> MR HARLEY Posted Today, 10:05 AM
> Back and fourth , and back and fourth , Thats all I ever see around here lately.
> 
> Frank Have you breed piraya Before ?
> And If You havent, How can you touch on it yourself ? Because what you have science you canspeak on it / but no Personnel expierence ?
> 
> Of course I have not bred P. piraya, and in saying that, NEITHER HAVE YOU or your pal Alan.:laugh: And yes, I have the science and that governs my opinions on this matter. Could also be why a vast audience reads OPEFE to gather such information to help.
> 
> ~Everyone~
> How about helping him succeed and grow for the "Hobby" instead of getting off on your personnel vendetas of what you think is right or wrong .
> 
> What personal vendetta is that? I simply addressed Alan's gold fish link that had nothing to do with breeding P. piraya. The obvious is that you must keep a pair of fish together in order for them to breed. I assume you lost that message somewhere in those long winded posts.
> 
> We all have different outcomes in our aquariums and if its working and pics and vids are being provided , how can one Discriminate ?
> 
> Very simple, Alan's experience is limited by just 3 years and breeding basically one species. There's nothing wrong with that. But he (like others) make assumptions based on that success as if P. piraya will follow some rock-hard rule. These are animals, not machines. And photographs are just moments in time and offer little other than ooo's and ahhhh's. That my friend is the reality. I might as well video tape my tub and state, wow my fish are getting along. See that's proof.
> 
> QUOTE
> NEITHER HAVE YOU or your pal Alan.
> 
> Hearty Har har frank , Quote one time I have ever Said or tried to Breed Piraya ?
> And Every Hobbyist is My friend , You should try it and come off the high horse you are on .
> 
> QUOTE
> And yes, I have the science and that governs my opinions
> on this matter.
> 
> If So than why are others not having problems in there tank ?
> 
> and How come all your sanchezi got eaten ? Hmm theres a Thought .
> 
> QUOTE
> Could also be why a vast audience reads OPEFE to gather such information to help.
> 
> There ya go agian with the self-praise , Like we already dont know that you rule the world in your mind .
> 
> QUOTE
> I might as well video tape my tub and state, wow my fish are getting along
> 
> How can Ya you pulled the plug on it so soon , and never really stated why ya did it , plus how can you make assumtions when your fish were only kept together for such a short time ? See your so called success or non sucess was only for a short time .. See theres My Proof


How did I know you were going to follow Alan and basically go into the "protect" mode.







That didn't take science just your pattern.









My conclusions are posted at the OPEFE web site. Go read it. It explains itself. Lastly, Alan has admitted over and over again, the fish are unpredictable. You must be missing that point. It is also something I have said from day one.

So Harley, if you are only on this thread to "protect" Alan you wasting your time. He's a big boy, I'm sure he can defend himself without you coming up behind him each time as if your the guy on a white horse.


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## serrasalmus_collector

hastatus said:


> *Very simple, Alan's experience is limited by just 3 years and breeding basically one species. There's nothing wrong with that. But he (like others) make assumptions based on that success as if P. piraya will follow some rock-hard rule. These are animals, not machines. And photographs are just moments in time and offer little other than ooo's and ahhhh's. That my friend is the reality. I might as well video tape my tub and state, wow my fish are getting along. See that's proof.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [snapback]1032386[/snapback]​


Believe what you will about the number of species I have succesfully bred. It is has nothing to do with P.Piraya. I do believe the topic starter has made refference to breeding a single species numberous time and moving on to P.Piraya. I think breeding reds is a good thing. He has the knowlege to keep the eggs alive a properly raise the fry. I guess reds and Macualtus are the same species. That is all I will make claim to have bred.

Hopefully this will ease some tension. Here are some pics of my colony over 14 months of time. Ohhh and Ahhhh, or say here is a man that keeps good record of the growth and actions of his fish; I truly don't care. I'm here to share experiences and hopefully let piranha hobbyist know what if facutally occuring in my aquariums.

Enjoy the pics.

Ohhhh AuHHHHH









*The Beginning*
View attachment 62016


*September 4,2004*
View attachment 62017


*1st Photographed count Septermber 4,2004*
View attachment 62018


*My favorite pic taken July 2004*
View attachment 62019


*I won't comment on this. It's just P.Piraya April 19,2005*
View attachment 62020


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## Grosse Gurke

I dont think anyone is disputing that you have kept piraya together Alan, and yes the first step to breeding would be the ability to keep them together. But I dont think this is cutting edge news. I would be willing to be that there have been and are 100's if not 1000's of multiple piraya tanks. Because there have been reports of piraya killing eachother...hell...there are reports of reds doing the same thing.

I am not attempting to argue or anything but I guess Im of the opinion of.....whats the point of all these pictures?


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## MR HARLEY

> Isnt that the basis if a discussion? I dont see what would be accomplished by agreement on every subject.


Yes it is But the the constant Im right and your wrong attitude is getting tiresome . 


> Exactly who has bred piraya? ....so until someone actually breeds them in a home aquarium everything is simple speculation


Understood , But how can there be a right or wrong , if it hasent been accomplished ? 


> If you feel someone is giving inaccurate information should you simply agree with them because you have had personal difference in the past? Im not sure what you are getting at here. Sure...every time Frank and Alan disagree it will look to some like it is something personal....but what if it is just a difference of opinion?


Where is the inaccuarcies at ? 
It hasent been accomplisded as stated so what is the right way and wrong way ?


> How did I know you were going to follow Alan and basically go into the "protect" mode. That didn't take science just your pattern.


How did I know you would say something along those lines, and think that you are the ruler and Know-er of all and can tell whats going on in my mind all the way from Oregon ?


> My conclusions are posted at the OPEFE web site. Go read it.


Been there done that ...


> So Harley, if you are only on this thread to "protect" Alan you wasting your time. He's a big boy, I'm sure he can defend himself without you coming up behind him each time as if your the guy on a white horse.


.
Frank Your reaching now Buddy ...
Im on this thread to show that not all of what you say is golden , Plus Im here to stick up for myself to answer your little pot shots ...No worries Alot of us know now your full of sh*t and delusional ..

I wonder why you didnt answer my Posts .....Because you know im right . You just went on in your delusional path again ...But its all good we all know your protected around here ...
And No worries I see Your knights in shineing armor coming to your rescue also .


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## Grosse Gurke

MR HARLEY said:


> If you feel someone is giving inaccurate information should you simply agree with them because you have had personal difference in the past? Im not sure what you are getting at here. Sure...every time Frank and Alan disagree it will look to some like it is something personal....but what if it is just a difference of opinion?
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the inaccuarcies at ?
> It hasent been accomplisded as stated so what is the right way and wrong way ?
Click to expand...

That is exactly my point. No one knows. So what Frank believes is just as valid as what SC believes. However, I would say Franks years in the hobby gives him an edge in the behavior of these fish and he also have access to information the rest of us can only dream of. 
What I am saying though is that just because people disagree doesnt mean that it is always based on the past and out of spite.....maybe they just dont agree because they have different experiences and knowledge about these fish.


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## serrasalmus_collector

Grosse Gurke said:


> I dont think anyone is disputing that you have kept piraya together Alan, and yes the first step to breeding would be the ability to keep them together. But I dont think this is cutting edge news. I would be willing to be that there have been and are 100's if not 1000's of multiple piraya tanks. Because there have been reports of piraya killing eachother...hell...there are reports of reds doing the same thing.
> 
> I am not attempting to argue or anything but I guess Im of the opinion of.....whats the point of all these pictures?
> [snapback]1032421[/snapback]​


I seen a member wanting to raise piraya up and explore breeding them. This is something I am currently exploring. I was just sharing my ideas, and posting some pics to validate the time they were housed together. I don't understand why it took the direction it did. I love talking about piranhas, and probably have over 10,000 pics and videos of my fish over time.

If I have caused any grief or problems I do apologize. I provided a link explaining the relationship between seasons, lights, temperature, and oxygen content corelating to the metabolic rate of fish. I believe P.Piraya are seasonal spawners. I know they breed in the Dam of Three Miranas in Brazil. I am uncertain if it's a year round breeding. Since seasons are involved in the metabolic study it may be of interests, if not a good read.


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## MR HARLEY

> That is exactly my point. No one knows. So what Frank believes is just as valid as what SC believes.


No Problem , But why not try to help eacth other succeed.










> However, I would say Franks years in the hobby gives him an edge in the behavior of these fish and he also have access to information the rest of us can only dream of.


Again , Understood , and Im sure no one disputes that but that gives him no reason to push people around on the board , No matter who they are, because of his beliefs and Resources, and what he has access to .

~Edit~
Im off to lunch

Wood ill be in touch


----------



## Grosse Gurke

MR HARLEY said:


> That is exactly my point. No one knows. So what Frank believes is just as valid as what SC believes.
> 
> 
> 
> No Problem , But why not try to help eacth other succeed.
Click to expand...

They are just giving different perspectives.....I think you were reading too much into the posts. I didnt think there was much in the way of arguing from either side...just giving different perspectives on a fish that has not been bred.


> However, I would say Franks years in the hobby gives him an edge in the behavior of these fish and he also have access to information the rest of us can only dream of.
> 
> 
> 
> Again , Understood , and Im sure no one disputes that but that gives him no reason to push people around on the board , No matter who they are, because of his beliefs and Resources, and what he has access to .
Click to expand...

I didnt see him doing that....sure, Frank is direct, but he is that way with every member and in every situation.


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## hastatus

> serrasalmus_collector Posted Today, 11:05 AM
> QUOTE(Grosse Gurke @ May 19 2005, 05:58 PM)
> I dont think anyone is disputing that you have kept piraya together Alan, and yes the first step to breeding would be the ability to keep them together. But I dont think this is cutting edge news. I would be willing to be that there have been and are 100's if not 1000's of multiple piraya tanks. Because there have been reports of piraya killing eachother...hell...there are reports of reds doing the same thing.
> 
> I am not attempting to argue or anything but I guess Im of the opinion of.....whats the point of all these pictures?
> 
> I seen a member wanting to raise piraya up and explore breeding them. This is something I am currently exploring. I was just sharing my ideas, and posting some pics to validate the time they were housed together. I don't understand why it took the direction it did. I love talking about piranhas, and probably have over 10,000 pics and videos of my fish over time.
> 
> If I have caused any grief or problems I do apologize. I provided a link explaining the relationship between seasons, lights, temperature, and oxygen content corelating to the metabolic rate of fish. I believe P.Piraya are seasonal spawners. I know they breed in the Dam of Three Miranas in Brazil. I am uncertain if it's a year round breeding. Since seasons are involved in the metabolic study it may be of interests, if not a good read.


1. The problem is not you Alan as much as it is Harley who has this need to thump his chest in your behalf, that's why it took the direction it did. As if what I'm stating is personal and not an observation on your ideas or facts. It was a discussion and I was hoping for you to explain it more why you think its important in this discussion. And Harley I don't need anyone from PFURY to protect or defend me. I do quite well on my own. If Staff comes in here its to get YOU back on the topic and thread. If you have a problem with me or OPEFE, to bad, I've been around for a quite a few years and so has OPEFE. I'm proud of my work and accomplishments and I'm certainly proud that OPEFE gets nearly a 1,000 hits a day on people getting their information on these fish, including YOU and Alan.

2. The problem as I see it Alan is that your basically trying to re-invent the wheel. As GG and I pointed out on the photos. Its nothing new. Your also taking material out of context in what I stated regarding juvenile and subadults at OPEFE. I'm not going to base my opinions on your tank or truballa's tank. Its based on the overall review of information gathered. For me to state, such and such happened in my tank therefore it is golden is not only absurd but unscientific.

You can believe what you want regarding Tres Marias, I'm not even sure why you think they ARE seasonal breeders because its a known fact they are seasonal breeders. That fact is posted in OPEFE under that species.

And while this might piss off Harley more, I'm revising all of OPEFE with new information on all the species. So Harley, while OPEFE you might put OPEFE down and its info, fact is, it has more information in it than you will ever have or get. Of that I am certain.

Now Harley if you are done, I'd like to get back to discussing P. piraya and Alan is more than welcome to post his ideas and what he thinks are fact. However, from where I sit, I have every right to question his information and ideas if I think (in my opinion) they are flawed.


----------



## phensway

I want SC to start a thread of his own, of his own fish, and his breeding project, without all the "naysayers" putting in their two cents and pissing people off....... people just cant refrain themselves from beating this dude up......







and now you guys know why SC doesnt post as much as he used to.... i love reading his breeding posts, more than any other thread on this site............


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## hastatus

> phensway Posted Today, 11:37 AM
> I want SC to start a thread of his own, of his own fish, and his breeding project, without all the "naysayers" putting in their two cents and pissing people off....... people just cant refrain themselves from beating this dude up...... and now you guys know why SC doesnt post as much as he used to.... i love reading his breeding posts, more than any other thread on this site............


So what you want is all YES MEN.


----------



## CraigStables

hastatus said:


> phensway Posted Today, 11:37 AM
> I want SC to start a thread of his own, of his own fish, and his breeding project, without all the "naysayers" putting in their two cents and pissing people off....... people just cant refrain themselves from beating this dude up...... and now you guys know why SC doesnt post as much as he used to.... i love reading his breeding posts, more than any other thread on this site............
> 
> 
> 
> So what you want is all YES MEN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [snapback]1032481[/snapback]​
Click to expand...









I was just about to say the same thing!

Their are no 'nay sayers' in here as you call them. Just people with differing opinions, which to be honest can only be helpful to people trying out new things.


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## phensway

what i want, is for people to stop "bum rushing" this guy, so he stays on this site and provides all of the info he can, and his info is far better than anyone else's

So what you want is all YES MEN.

YESA MASTA, WHAT EVA YOU SAY SIR


----------



## CraigStables

phensway said:


> what i want, is for people to stop "bum rushing" this guy, so he stays on this site and provides all of the info he can, and his info is far better than anyone else's
> 
> So what you want is all YES MEN.
> 
> YESA MASTA, WHAT EVA YOU SAY SIR
> [snapback]1032502[/snapback]​


his info is one persons opinions and findings, it doesnt make facts. A number of peoples opinions and findings make facts. If people didnt question what he (and others) fidn then we MAY end up with alot of wrong information.

And IMO I do like SC's posts, but I also like to hear other peoples opinions on what he does, so I dont see the problems with those posts, and I dont think SC does either.


----------



## hastatus

> phensway Posted Today, 11:49 AM
> what i want, is for people to stop "bum rushing" this guy, so he stays on this site and provides all of the info he can, and his info is far better than anyone else's
> 
> So what you want is all YES MEN.
> 
> YESA MASTA, WHAT EVA YOU SAY SIR


Bum rushing? Are you calling Alan a bum???







Get real, this is a discussion. Evidently you and Harley must be in the same environment.


----------



## phensway

his posts do make facts, becuase he has been successfull at breeding........ (foot out of mouth) i agree with you totally, his posts are very informative........ i dont think people should criticize his ways, because THEY WORK!!!! obvisouly


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## CROSSHAIR223

LOL it's funny to see everyone's views and angles and not to mention the little skirmish over this topic. Lol you guys are all cool but can I make just a simple inquiry? Who here has bred piraya? Who here has bred reds? I have. Who here has owned and seen piraya in smaller spaces than they should exist yet the live with one another comfortably? I think if you own piraya or have bred in the same family that you should then post cause I might be able to gleam something. But giving me opinions is nothing more than............ well, just opinions.


----------



## CraigStables

phensway said:


> his posts do make facts, becuase he has been successfull at breeding........ (foot out of mouth) i agree with you totally, his posts are very informative........ i dont think people should criticize his ways, because THEY WORK!!!! obvisouly
> [snapback]1032513[/snapback]​


yes he has bred other types of P's, and found something that worked for him. But until they work for others its not fact, as he may of got lucky with the set of P's he had.

And in this case he hasnt bred them yet, so anything he is saying is still opinion. Techniques are there to be critized, thats life and how things improve.


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## hastatus

> phensway Posted Today, 11:55 AM
> his posts do make facts, becuase he has been successfull at breeding........ (foot out of mouth) i agree with you totally, his posts are very informative........ i dont think people should criticize his ways, because THEY WORK!!!! obvisouly


 Look fella, I'm only going to say this one last time.

1. No one has criticizing Alan, his ideas and what he calls as facts are being reviewed and commented on. He is not being bashed. However, the same cannot be said of you and Harley personal attacks.

2. If you think that no one should criticize Alan then you are holding him up as a god and infallible. That's too bad you closed your mind off.


----------



## CraigStables

CROSSHAIR223 said:


> LOL it's funny to see everyone's views and angles and not to mention the little skirmish over this topic. Lol you guys are all cool but can I make just a simple inquiry? Who here has bred piraya? Who here has bred reds? I have. Who here has owned and seen piraya in smaller spaces than they should exist yet the live with one another comfortably? I think if you own piraya or have bred in the same family that you should then post cause I might be able to gleam something. But giving me opinions is nothing more than............ well, just opinions.
> [snapback]1032517[/snapback]​


where the documented facts of your breeding Piraya?

Im not doubting you, but if you want people to take you seriously you need to post up facts, pictures, etc.

And just because you havent bred Piraya doesnt mean you cant offer an opinion, far from it infact. And also just because you have doesnt mean you know more that anyone else, you may of got lucky!


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## mashunter18

LEt me jump in here.

P. piraya darkening I dont believe that to be a sure sign of breeding to come.

My reasoning is simple, Iv owned several batches with as many as 9 together.I dont want anyone to be dissappointed or fooled when their fish turn dark.Most of the p. piraya I have owned will turn dark in color with a simple water change and a blackwater extract or peat moss treatment.

I have a pair right now, that I would bet would darken up in hours.If I added some peat.

They also like to twirl , but they like to up high by floating driftwood????

Lots of mystery out there regarding this fish, but I dont think darkening is as important with p. piraya


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## phensway

I agree that there are probably no true facts in breeding piranhas and that it probably is a variable Theology......... if it was an art that everyone could do, than you probably couldnt give piranhas away.... im just saying that his methods obvisouly work, maybe not for you, but as far as i know (not a fact) he is the only one on this site to breed more than one species... am i correct???


----------



## mashunter18

CROSSHAIR223 said:


> LOL it's funny to see everyone's views and angles and not to mention the little skirmish over this topic. * Lol you guys are all cool but can I make just a simple inquiry? Who here has bred piraya? Who here has bred reds? I have. Who here has owned and seen piraya in smaller spaces than they should exist yet the live with one another comfortably? * I think if you own piraya or have bred in the same family that you should then post cause I might be able to gleam something. But giving me opinions is nothing more than............ well, just opinions.
> [snapback]1032517[/snapback]​


Iv done all this stuff,except breed piraya, I gave you some minimal advice, in my previous post.


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## CROSSHAIR223

Lol yes, and I have proven I've bred them. If you check back when I first posted you will see many pics of my eggs and fry. I've even sent them to people asking me about them. Next look a little deeper than responding off the cuff.


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## hastatus

The only 2 fish I know of that Alan has bred was S. maculatus (continuously) and a one time with P. nattereri. I think he mentioned to me S. sanchezi dropped some eggs, but that doesn't mean much as female piranhas as a norm expell them anyway. Now that is not bashing, that is an observation on information provided to me.

Just because I seen Acestrorhynchus drop eggs, doesn't mean I bred them either. No fry came from them unlike P. nattereri and the S. maculatus that bred here.

I have seen reports of ternetzi doing the same thing, as well as P. cariba. That doesn't mean they bred. <<<<<is this getting clearer for every one?


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## CraigStables

CROSSHAIR223 said:


> Lol yes, and I have proven I've bred them. If you check back when I first posted you will see many pics of my eggs and fry. I've even sent them to people asking me about them. Next look a little deeper than responding off the cuff.
> [snapback]1032538[/snapback]​


Ive seen pics of your red belly fry, dont see anything on your Piraya fry...care to point me in the right direction?


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## CROSSHAIR223

Sorry, then maybe I poorly stated it or put it in a confusing manner. I answered to breeding of reds. I was not trying to answer to both breeding of reds and piraya. If confusion arose I apologize.


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## Judazzz

serrasalmus_collector said:


> Judazzz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> serrasalmus_collector said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't recommend giving your fish such limited gallonage per fish, *but it can be accomplished*, and is currently occurring in a hobbyist tank.
> 
> View attachment 61964
> 
> [snapback]1031830[/snapback]​
> 
> 
> 
> Accomplishing what?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People keep more Pygo's in similar or even smaller tanks, *but the fish staying alive doesn't mean anything.* It certainly isn't the ideal situation to get a breeding pair - too overcrowded and too stressful. And we're talking about juveniles/sub-adults here, so these fish haven't even started to exhibit breeding behaviour, let alone the territorial and/or agression behaviour that comes naturally with it.
> People have kept much smaller shoals of mature Piraya's in much larger tanks, and even those attempts were fruitless - to save the fish, they had to be separated.
> [snapback]1032020[/snapback]​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dis-agree. If you can't keep them alive how can you breed them. The statement staying alive means nothing???? Dead fish can not naturally breed. I am sharing my experiences.[snapback]1032276[/snapback]​
Click to expand...

Keeping them alive and breeding them are two entirely different things, and breeding is what we are talking about here, experiences people had/have with Piraya shoals.

I'm not trying to shoot anyone down here, but if a post is hardly relevant at best to the topic at hand, I'm going to say something about it: many keep Piraya shoals and keep them alive, but what teaches that to us about breeding these fish? Nothing... Only things that do are the experiences of those that may have gotten close, for example Knifeman - all the other data is standard "Keeping Piraya in a tank" data that is not on topic.
I think raising 16 Piraya in a 100g tank with just one loss in 18 months is quite an accomplishment given their nature, and I hope eventually a breeding pair will emerge, but as said, your post has no real relevance to the topic at hand. Even more so because the fish aren't sexually mature yet, so in a breeding topic these observations aren't what people need in their attempts to breed Piraya.


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## MR HARLEY

Actually Frank Im not done . If you would like to continue takeing these pot shots and Trying to Big leauge Me like this 
"The problem is not you Alan as much as it is Harley who has this need to thump his chest in your behalf"
Or this 
"Evidently you and Harley must be in the same environment"
^^
I welcome the challenge . I do what I want so I dont need any of your old adivce to try to help . Your old and tired frank , Get over yourself.

"If you have a problem with me or OPEFE, to bad, I've been around for a quite a few years and so has OPEFE."
^^
Quote me frank where did I badmouth OPEFE ? There you go again makeing delusional thoughts in your brain .........You see how you like to pick fights , Like a little girl , but you think you do it with class and Suffistacation in your writings ...Yeah Right









"I'm proud of my work and accomplishments and I'm certainly proud that OPEFE gets nearly a 1,000 hits a day on people getting their information on these fish, including YOU and Alan."
^^
Self Praise Number 2 Gurke









"The problem as I see it Alan is that your basically trying to re-invent the wheel. As GG and I pointed out on the photos. Its nothing new. Your also taking material out of context in what I stated regarding juvenile and subadults at OPEFE. I'm not going to base my opinions on your tank or truballa's tank. Its based on the overall review of information gathered. For me to state, such and such happened in my tank therefore it is golden is not only absurd but unscientific. "
^^
I have seen this statement posted by you over and over again , Do some more reasearch , Which your so good at and come up with a better analysis . Maybe he is adding more spokes to the wheel ...

"And while this might piss off Harley more, I'm revising all of OPEFE with new information on all the species. So Harley, while OPEFE you might put OPEFE down and its info, fact is, it has more information in it than you will ever have or get. Of that I am certain."
^^
Again Bicker Number 2 about the same thing. Aparrently you have this thing with someone "Downing" Your website . And Im gald you are gonna revise , Give ya something to do during your day thats worthwhile.

"Alan is more than welcome to post his ideas and what he thinks are fact. "
^^
Where did he ever state his findings were Fact ?


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## serrasalmus_collector

I understand your statements Frank. I do have the document on the sexual maturation of P.Piraya at the damn of Tres Marias. I have it has been translated 100% into English. I also have a document of a 5 year study or water parameter and weather conditions. Collecting documents of studies is part of my hobby. I also have to be as accurate and correct in my statements, they are read by many. You have much more information and data on piranhas than I currently do. This is nothing against you, but I never know when something will be presented to contradict my statements. There was the possibility that someone may produce a document with information of year round spawning.

I am trying to be the best hobbyist I can. This involves constant research and translations of documents from the past and present. Since you want me to explain myself I will.

This is my own personal ideas, and should not be duplicated unless you feel you must see the outcome.

My piraya were placed in a small tank and over populated to reduce their growth. There are people who have got piraya the same size and age as mine. Theirs are now 10 inches long and mine are 5 to 7.5 inches long. It is my belief this has worked and my piraya are smaller than they should be. There were feed very well, so they are healthy. They just have not experienced a true cleansing like the river gets during the actual rainy season. My personal experiment is to simulate the fish cut off from the river in an isolated lagoon. At the middle of my rainy season simulation tanks drastically change size, and the fish get a 400 gallon per day drip system of purified water on a dosing unit keeping pH, trace elements and hardness in check with 400 gallons of pure water added a day. This cleansing will simulate the lagoon flooding and the fish meeting up in the river. Much more vertical and horizontal swim space. No more chemicals hormones, pheromones or pollutants in the water. If there is it will be very minute. After a substantial period they will move to still a bigger tank and stabilize. There will be extremely heavy oxygenation, and all the factors to increase their metabolism. This in my opinion will generate 1st growth, and then hopefully intense desire to breed.

There are some things I have noticed about piranhas. By manipulating their metabolism they will go into a very dormant state. They don't eat any food, but swim and nip. I have personally kept S.Maculatus in 6 inches of water with no food for 6 weeks. They were 7.5 to 8 inch fish; 5 were together. There was no cannibalism. This leads me to the methods of breeding snakes. I know their not fish, but from the same area and experience the same weather conditions. Their metabolism is dramatically dropped. The snakes go into a hibernation state. When brought out they eat heavy and immediately breed. I have the document on the humeralis breeding in Florida (They turned out to be rhoms). But, the winter prior to their breeding put the fish in the same conditions. I am not at liberty to share that document. I knew it existed, and couldn't find it online. I got it faxed to my job. If Frank decides to share the information he can.

I want to point out again this stuff should not be duplicated, unless you are prepared to lose fish. I have a beautiful colony of S.Maculatus and the Strawberry banana spilo. My spilo died to these conditions, and I lost one that lasted with macs for 8 months. Losing a fish is a tragedy to me. I still miss him.

*Please give input on my ideas Frank.*

PS. Mr Harley has been a member here much longer than me. I was a member here a while back and not the best member. People change over time, and so have I; he sees this change. My main concern with forums is hearing what people are doing with their fish, and sharing information.


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## Grosse Gurke

phensway said:


> I agree that there are probably no true facts in breeding piranhas and that it probably is a variable Theology......... if it was an art that everyone could do, than you probably couldnt give piranhas away.... im just saying that his methods obvisouly work, maybe not for you, but as far as i know (not a fact) he is the only one on this site to breed more than one species... am i correct???
> [snapback]1032530[/snapback]​


I have a friend that is no longer in the hobby. He bred Nattereri, Maculatus, and Sanchezi, all on a continual basis. I asked him what his secret was and he told me:

"I just kept them comfortable and made sure I kept up on my water changes."

That was how he bred these fish, and sold them to dealers and hobbiests, before any other hobbiest had openly bred them (sanchezi and macs). Does that mean this will work for everyone?.....I dont really know....but what it says to me is that if you get a pair of fish that want to breed...there is no big secret to breeding them. Can you do things that may induce breeding?....maybe....but if they will also breed in a tank with no interferiance...how can you really be sure what you did is having any effect at all.


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## 33truballa33

hastatus said:


> phensway Posted Today, 11:37 AM
> I want SC to start a thread of his own, of his own fish, and his breeding project, without all the "naysayers" putting in their two cents and pissing people off....... people just cant refrain themselves from beating this dude up...... and now you guys know why SC doesnt post as much as he used to.... i love reading his breeding posts, more than any other thread on this site............
> 
> 
> 
> So what you want is all YES MEN.:laugh:
> [snapback]1032481[/snapback]​
Click to expand...

no he doesnt want yes men.. he wants people to actually respect what is going on... sorta like when u make a post .. instead of having people rip his thougths and ideas to shred maybe take them into consideration. also i still feel the same way as i felt b4 with people trying to lay out carved in stone methods and criteria that needs to be met to breed these fish. no1 has done it in a home aquarium or at least if it has been done the person hasnt made it public, so how can u say that 55 or 200 plus gallons are needed to breed these fish. u say u have science supporting u but i see no science that can help u in telling people how to breed these fish. all one can do is try to create their own variables and try to get the fish to breed. u are not venturing down this road so i dont see how u can shoot down or continue to criticize . also i dont even see how my name got into this about my tank.. but ok.. i dont kno what else to say ill probably edit this and add more as i continue to catch up on reading this thread


----------



## 33truballa33

hastatus said:


> *Very simple, Alan's experience is limited by just 3 years and breeding basically one species. There's nothing wrong with that. But he (like others) make assumptions based on that success as if P. piraya will follow some rock-hard rule. These are animals, not machines. And photographs are just moments in time and offer little other than ooo's and ahhhh's. That my friend is the reality. I might as well video tape my tub and state, wow my fish are getting along. See that's proof.*


[snapback]1032386[/snapback]​[/quote]

ok im a little confused on this portion. " but he like others make assumptions based on that success as if P.Piraya will follow some rock-hard rule. " now forgive me if im mistakened. but on numerous occasions u have disclosed jim's method of breeding caribe which i havent heard much success in dublicating that.. matter of fact u suggested the method to me when i had my caribe. oh wait then theres when u suggest to put them thru a rainy/dry season simulations.. those seem like rock-hard rules.. i dont get it.. all alan is doing is taking note of what he does and what "triggers" the fish as u have said in many post to breed.. i do recall u using some of alans technique to get ur macs to breed. but i have never seen pictures of any fry.. just did a lil searching of the breeding forum and thats what i saw. and without a rock-hard rule what gives people to discredit other peoples methods?? if there is no standard then who are u to make negative comments of other peoples practices


----------



## hastatus

> serrasalmus_collector Posted Today, 12:45 PM
> I understand your statements Frank. I do have the document on the sexual maturation of P.Piraya at the damn of Tres Marias. I have it has been translated 100% into English. I also have a document of a 5 year study or water parameter and weather conditions. Collecting documents of studies is part of my hobby. I also have to be as accurate and correct in my statements, they are read by many. You have much more information and data on piranhas than I currently do. This is nothing against you, but I never know when something will be presented to contradict my statements. There was the possibility that someone may produce a document with information of year round spawning.
> 
> I am trying to be the best hobbyist I can. This involves constant research and translations of documents from the past and present. Since you want me to explain myself I will.
> 
> This is my own personal ideas, and should not be duplicated unless you feel you must see the outcome.
> 
> My piraya were placed in a small tank and over populated to reduce their growth. There are people who have got piraya the same size and age as mine. Theirs are now 10 inches long and mine are 5 to 7.5 inches long. It is my belief this has worked and my piraya are smaller than they should be. There were feed very well, so they are healthy. They just have not experienced a true cleansing like the river gets during the actual rainy season. My personal experiment is to simulate the fish cut off from the river in an isolated lagoon. At the middle of my rainy season simulation tanks drastically change size, and the fish get a 400 gallon per day drip system of purified water on a dosing unit keeping pH, trace elements and hardness in check with 400 gallons of pure water added a day. This cleansing will simulate the lagoon flooding and the fish meeting up in the river. Much more vertical and horizontal swim space. No more chemicals hormones, pheromones or pollutants in the water. If there is it will be very minute. After a substantial period they will move to still a bigger tank and stabilize. There will be extremely heavy oxygenation, and all the factors to increase their metabolism. This in my opinion will generate 1st growth, and then hopefully intense desire to breed.
> 
> There are some things I have noticed about piranhas. By manipulating their metabolism they will go into a very dormant state. They don't eat any food, but swim and nip. I have personally kept S.Maculatus in 6 inches of water with no food for 6 weeks. They were 7.5 to 8 inch fish; 5 were together. There was no cannibalism. This leads me to the methods of breeding snakes. I know their not fish, but from the same area and experience the same weather conditions. Their metabolism is dramatically dropped. The snakes go into a hibernation state. When brought out they eat heavy and immediately breed. I have the document on the humeralis breeding in Florida (They turned out to be rhoms). But, the winter prior to their breeding put the fish in the same conditions. I am not at liberty to share that document. I knew it existed, and couldn't find it online. I got it faxed to my job. If Frank decides to share the information he can.
> 
> I want to point out again this stuff should not be duplicated, unless you are prepared to lose fish. I have a beautiful colony of S.Maculatus and the Strawberry banana spilo. My spilo died to these conditions, and I lost one that lasted with macs for 8 months. Losing a fish is a tragedy to me. I still miss him.
> 
> Please give input on my ideas Frank.
> 
> PS. Mr Harley has been a member here much longer than me. I was a member here a while back and not the best member. People change over time, and so have I; he sees this change. My main concern with forums is hearing what people are doing with their fish, and sharing information.
> 
> MR HARLEY Posted Today, 12:43 PM
> Actually Frank Im not done . If you would like to continue takeing these pot shots and Trying to Big leauge Me like this
> "The problem is not you Alan as much as it is Harley who has this need to thump his chest in your behalf"
> Or this
> "Evidently you and Harley must be in the same environment"
> ^^
> I welcome the challenge . I do what I want so I dont need any of your old adivce to try to help . Your old and tired frank , Get over yourself.
> 
> "If you have a problem with me or OPEFE, to bad, I've been around for a quite a few years and so has OPEFE."
> ^^
> Quote me frank where did I badmouth OPEFE ? There you go again makeing delusional thoughts in your brain .........You see how you like to pick fights , Like a little girl , but you think you do it with class and Suffistacation in your writings ...Yeah Right
> 
> "I'm proud of my work and accomplishments and I'm certainly proud that OPEFE gets nearly a 1,000 hits a day on people getting their information on these fish, including YOU and Alan."
> ^^
> Self Praise Number 2 Gurke
> 
> "The problem as I see it Alan is that your basically trying to re-invent the wheel. As GG and I pointed out on the photos. Its nothing new. Your also taking material out of context in what I stated regarding juvenile and subadults at OPEFE. I'm not going to base my opinions on your tank or truballa's tank. Its based on the overall review of information gathered. For me to state, such and such happened in my tank therefore it is golden is not only absurd but unscientific. "
> ^^
> I have seen this statement posted by you over and over again , Do some more reasearch , Which your so good at and come up with a better analysis . Maybe he is adding more spokes to the wheel ...
> 
> "And while this might piss off Harley more, I'm revising all of OPEFE with new information on all the species. So Harley, while OPEFE you might put OPEFE down and its info, fact is, it has more information in it than you will ever have or get. Of that I am certain."
> ^^
> Again Bicker Number 2 about the same thing. Aparrently you have this thing with someone "Downing" Your website . And Im gald you are gonna revise , Give ya something to do during your day thats worthwhile.
> 
> "Alan is more than welcome to post his ideas and what he thinks are fact. "
> ^^
> Where did he ever state his findings were Fact ?
> 
> 33truballa33 Posted Today, 01:58 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ May 19 2005, 11:41 AM)
> QUOTE
> phensway Posted Today, 11:37 AM
> I want SC to start a thread of his own, of his own fish, and his breeding project, without all the "naysayers" putting in their two cents and pissing people off....... people just cant refrain themselves from beating this dude up...... and now you guys know why SC doesnt post as much as he used to.... i love reading his breeding posts, more than any other thread on this site............
> 
> So what you want is all YES MEN.
> 
> no he doesnt want yes men.. he wants people to actually respect what is going on... sorta like when u make a post .. instead of having people rip his thougths and ideas to shred maybe take them into consideration. also i still feel the same way as i felt b4 with people trying to lay out carved in stone methods and criteria that needs to be met to breed these fish. no1 has done it in a home aquarium or at least if it has been done the person hasnt made it public, so how can u say that 55 or 200 plus gallons are needed to breed these fish. u say u have science supporting u but i see no science that can help u in telling people how to breed these fish. all one can do is try to create their own variables and try to get the fish to breed. u are not venturing down this road so i dont see how u can shoot down or continue to criticize . also i dont even see how my name got into this about my tank.. but ok.. i dont kno what else to say ill probably edit this and add more as i continue to catch up on reading this thread.


Respect is earned not given. I'm done with this thread and replying. As for your name being brought into this go read SC post in this thread, he brought you up.

Call it a win from the SC crowd on derailing this thread, if you wish. But I'm done with it and any further contact with any of you 3.


----------



## 33truballa33

hastatus said:


> serrasalmus_collector Posted Today, 12:45 PM
> I understand your statements Frank. I do have the document on the sexual maturation of P.Piraya at the damn of Tres Marias. I have it has been translated 100% into English. I also have a document of a 5 year study or water parameter and weather conditions. Collecting documents of studies is part of my hobby. I also have to be as accurate and correct in my statements, they are read by many. You have much more information and data on piranhas than I currently do. This is nothing against you, but I never know when something will be presented to contradict my statements. There was the possibility that someone may produce a document with information of year round spawning.
> 
> I am trying to be the best hobbyist I can. This involves constant research and translations of documents from the past and present. Since you want me to explain myself I will.
> 
> This is my own personal ideas, and should not be duplicated unless you feel you must see the outcome.
> 
> My piraya were placed in a small tank and over populated to reduce their growth. There are people who have got piraya the same size and age as mine. Theirs are now 10 inches long and mine are 5 to 7.5 inches long. It is my belief this has worked and my piraya are smaller than they should be. There were feed very well, so they are healthy. They just have not experienced a true cleansing like the river gets during the actual rainy season. My personal experiment is to simulate the fish cut off from the river in an isolated lagoon. At the middle of my rainy season simulation tanks drastically change size, and the fish get a 400 gallon per day drip system of purified water on a dosing unit keeping pH, trace elements and hardness in check with 400 gallons of pure water added a day. This cleansing will simulate the lagoon flooding and the fish meeting up in the river. Much more vertical and horizontal swim space. No more chemicals hormones, pheromones or pollutants in the water. If there is it will be very minute. After a substantial period they will move to still a bigger tank and stabilize. There will be extremely heavy oxygenation, and all the factors to increase their metabolism. This in my opinion will generate 1st growth, and then hopefully intense desire to breed.
> 
> There are some things I have noticed about piranhas. By manipulating their metabolism they will go into a very dormant state. They don't eat any food, but swim and nip. I have personally kept S.Maculatus in 6 inches of water with no food for 6 weeks. They were 7.5 to 8 inch fish; 5 were together. There was no cannibalism. This leads me to the methods of breeding snakes. I know their not fish, but from the same area and experience the same weather conditions. Their metabolism is dramatically dropped. The snakes go into a hibernation state. When brought out they eat heavy and immediately breed. I have the document on the humeralis breeding in Florida (They turned out to be rhoms). But, the winter prior to their breeding put the fish in the same conditions. I am not at liberty to share that document. I knew it existed, and couldn't find it online. I got it faxed to my job. If Frank decides to share the information he can.
> 
> I want to point out again this stuff should not be duplicated, unless you are prepared to lose fish. I have a beautiful colony of S.Maculatus and the Strawberry banana spilo. My spilo died to these conditions, and I lost one that lasted with macs for 8 months. Losing a fish is a tragedy to me. I still miss him.
> 
> Please give input on my ideas Frank.
> 
> PS. Mr Harley has been a member here much longer than me. I was a member here a while back and not the best member. People change over time, and so have I; he sees this change. My main concern with forums is hearing what people are doing with their fish, and sharing information.
> 
> MR HARLEY Posted Today, 12:43 PM
> Actually Frank Im not done . If you would like to continue takeing these pot shots and Trying to Big leauge Me like this
> "The problem is not you Alan as much as it is Harley who has this need to thump his chest in your behalf"
> Or this
> "Evidently you and Harley must be in the same environment"
> ^^
> I welcome the challenge . I do what I want so I dont need any of your old adivce to try to help . Your old and tired frank , Get over yourself.
> 
> "If you have a problem with me or OPEFE, to bad, I've been around for a quite a few years and so has OPEFE."
> ^^
> Quote me frank where did I badmouth OPEFE ? There you go again makeing delusional thoughts in your brain .........You see how you like to pick fights , Like a little girl , but you think you do it with class and Suffistacation in your writings ...Yeah Right
> 
> "I'm proud of my work and accomplishments and I'm certainly proud that OPEFE gets nearly a 1,000 hits a day on people getting their information on these fish, including YOU and Alan."
> ^^
> Self Praise Number 2 Gurke
> 
> "The problem as I see it Alan is that your basically trying to re-invent the wheel. As GG and I pointed out on the photos. Its nothing new. Your also taking material out of context in what I stated regarding juvenile and subadults at OPEFE. I'm not going to base my opinions on your tank or truballa's tank. Its based on the overall review of information gathered. For me to state, such and such happened in my tank therefore it is golden is not only absurd but unscientific. "
> ^^
> I have seen this statement posted by you over and over again , Do some more reasearch , Which your so good at and come up with a better analysis . Maybe he is adding more spokes to the wheel ...
> 
> "And while this might piss off Harley more, I'm revising all of OPEFE with new information on all the species. So Harley, while OPEFE you might put OPEFE down and its info, fact is, it has more information in it than you will ever have or get. Of that I am certain."
> ^^
> Again Bicker Number 2 about the same thing. Aparrently you have this thing with someone "Downing" Your website . And Im gald you are gonna revise , Give ya something to do during your day thats worthwhile.
> 
> "Alan is more than welcome to post his ideas and what he thinks are fact. "
> ^^
> Where did he ever state his findings were Fact ?
> 
> 33truballa33 Posted Today, 01:58 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ May 19 2005, 11:41 AM)
> QUOTE
> phensway Posted Today, 11:37 AM
> I want SC to start a thread of his own, of his own fish, and his breeding project, without all the "naysayers" putting in their two cents and pissing people off....... people just cant refrain themselves from beating this dude up...... and now you guys know why SC doesnt post as much as he used to.... i love reading his breeding posts, more than any other thread on this site............
> 
> So what you want is all YES MEN.
> 
> no he doesnt want yes men.. he wants people to actually respect what is going on... sorta like when u make a post .. instead of having people rip his thougths and ideas to shred maybe take them into consideration. also i still feel the same way as i felt b4 with people trying to lay out carved in stone methods and criteria that needs to be met to breed these fish. no1 has done it in a home aquarium or at least if it has been done the person hasnt made it public, so how can u say that 55 or 200 plus gallons are needed to breed these fish. u say u have science supporting u but i see no science that can help u in telling people how to breed these fish. all one can do is try to create their own variables and try to get the fish to breed. u are not venturing down this road so i dont see how u can shoot down or continue to criticize . also i dont even see how my name got into this about my tank.. but ok.. i dont kno what else to say ill probably edit this and add more as i continue to catch up on reading this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Respect is earned not given. I'm done with this thread and replying. As for your name being brought into this go read SC post in this thread, he brought you up.
> 
> Call it a win from the SC crowd on derailing this thread, if you wish. But I'm done with it and any further contact with any of you 3.
> [snapback]1032803[/snapback]​
Click to expand...

u r the one that derailed this by commenting that alans post has no effect... u never cease to amaze me frank.. u r sh*t never stinks and all must take ur words as fact... im sure fink would have tons of info about how "moronic" u were in ur early days sorta like u call out every1 here that ever asked for ur help..


----------



## MR HARLEY

hastatus said:


> serrasalmus_collector Posted Today, 12:45 PM
> I understand your statements Frank. I do have the document on the sexual maturation of P.Piraya at the damn of Tres Marias. I have it has been translated 100% into English. I also have a document of a 5 year study or water parameter and weather conditions. Collecting documents of studies is part of my hobby. I also have to be as accurate and correct in my statements, they are read by many. You have much more information and data on piranhas than I currently do. This is nothing against you, but I never know when something will be presented to contradict my statements. There was the possibility that someone may produce a document with information of year round spawning.
> 
> I am trying to be the best hobbyist I can. This involves constant research and translations of documents from the past and present. Since you want me to explain myself I will.
> 
> This is my own personal ideas, and should not be duplicated unless you feel you must see the outcome.
> 
> My piraya were placed in a small tank and over populated to reduce their growth. There are people who have got piraya the same size and age as mine. Theirs are now 10 inches long and mine are 5 to 7.5 inches long. It is my belief this has worked and my piraya are smaller than they should be. There were feed very well, so they are healthy. They just have not experienced a true cleansing like the river gets during the actual rainy season. My personal experiment is to simulate the fish cut off from the river in an isolated lagoon. At the middle of my rainy season simulation tanks drastically change size, and the fish get a 400 gallon per day drip system of purified water on a dosing unit keeping pH, trace elements and hardness in check with 400 gallons of pure water added a day. This cleansing will simulate the lagoon flooding and the fish meeting up in the river. Much more vertical and horizontal swim space. No more chemicals hormones, pheromones or pollutants in the water. If there is it will be very minute. After a substantial period they will move to still a bigger tank and stabilize. There will be extremely heavy oxygenation, and all the factors to increase their metabolism. This in my opinion will generate 1st growth, and then hopefully intense desire to breed.
> 
> There are some things I have noticed about piranhas. By manipulating their metabolism they will go into a very dormant state. They don't eat any food, but swim and nip. I have personally kept S.Maculatus in 6 inches of water with no food for 6 weeks. They were 7.5 to 8 inch fish; 5 were together. There was no cannibalism. This leads me to the methods of breeding snakes. I know their not fish, but from the same area and experience the same weather conditions. Their metabolism is dramatically dropped. The snakes go into a hibernation state. When brought out they eat heavy and immediately breed. I have the document on the humeralis breeding in Florida (They turned out to be rhoms). But, the winter prior to their breeding put the fish in the same conditions. I am not at liberty to share that document. I knew it existed, and couldn't find it online. I got it faxed to my job. If Frank decides to share the information he can.
> 
> I want to point out again this stuff should not be duplicated, unless you are prepared to lose fish. I have a beautiful colony of S.Maculatus and the Strawberry banana spilo. My spilo died to these conditions, and I lost one that lasted with macs for 8 months. Losing a fish is a tragedy to me. I still miss him.
> 
> Please give input on my ideas Frank.
> 
> PS. Mr Harley has been a member here much longer than me. I was a member here a while back and not the best member. People change over time, and so have I; he sees this change. My main concern with forums is hearing what people are doing with their fish, and sharing information.
> 
> MR HARLEY Posted Today, 12:43 PM
> Actually Frank Im not done . If you would like to continue takeing these pot shots and Trying to Big leauge Me like this
> "The problem is not you Alan as much as it is Harley who has this need to thump his chest in your behalf"
> Or this
> "Evidently you and Harley must be in the same environment"
> ^^
> I welcome the challenge . I do what I want so I dont need any of your old adivce to try to help . Your old and tired frank , Get over yourself.
> 
> "If you have a problem with me or OPEFE, to bad, I've been around for a quite a few years and so has OPEFE."
> ^^
> Quote me frank where did I badmouth OPEFE ? There you go again makeing delusional thoughts in your brain .........You see how you like to pick fights , Like a little girl , but you think you do it with class and Suffistacation in your writings ...Yeah Right
> 
> "I'm proud of my work and accomplishments and I'm certainly proud that OPEFE gets nearly a 1,000 hits a day on people getting their information on these fish, including YOU and Alan."
> ^^
> Self Praise Number 2 Gurke
> 
> "The problem as I see it Alan is that your basically trying to re-invent the wheel. As GG and I pointed out on the photos. Its nothing new. Your also taking material out of context in what I stated regarding juvenile and subadults at OPEFE. I'm not going to base my opinions on your tank or truballa's tank. Its based on the overall review of information gathered. For me to state, such and such happened in my tank therefore it is golden is not only absurd but unscientific. "
> ^^
> I have seen this statement posted by you over and over again , Do some more reasearch , Which your so good at and come up with a better analysis . Maybe he is adding more spokes to the wheel ...
> 
> "And while this might piss off Harley more, I'm revising all of OPEFE with new information on all the species. So Harley, while OPEFE you might put OPEFE down and its info, fact is, it has more information in it than you will ever have or get. Of that I am certain."
> ^^
> Again Bicker Number 2 about the same thing. Aparrently you have this thing with someone "Downing" Your website . And Im gald you are gonna revise , Give ya something to do during your day thats worthwhile.
> 
> "Alan is more than welcome to post his ideas and what he thinks are fact. "
> ^^
> Where did he ever state his findings were Fact ?
> 
> 33truballa33 Posted Today, 01:58 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ May 19 2005, 11:41 AM)
> QUOTE
> phensway Posted Today, 11:37 AM
> I want SC to start a thread of his own, of his own fish, and his breeding project, without all the "naysayers" putting in their two cents and pissing people off....... people just cant refrain themselves from beating this dude up...... and now you guys know why SC doesnt post as much as he used to.... i love reading his breeding posts, more than any other thread on this site............
> 
> So what you want is all YES MEN.
> 
> no he doesnt want yes men.. he wants people to actually respect what is going on... sorta like when u make a post .. instead of having people rip his thougths and ideas to shred maybe take them into consideration. also i still feel the same way as i felt b4 with people trying to lay out carved in stone methods and criteria that needs to be met to breed these fish. no1 has done it in a home aquarium or at least if it has been done the person hasnt made it public, so how can u say that 55 or 200 plus gallons are needed to breed these fish. u say u have science supporting u but i see no science that can help u in telling people how to breed these fish. all one can do is try to create their own variables and try to get the fish to breed. u are not venturing down this road so i dont see how u can shoot down or continue to criticize . also i dont even see how my name got into this about my tank.. but ok.. i dont kno what else to say ill probably edit this and add more as i continue to catch up on reading this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Respect is earned not given. I'm done with this thread and replying. As for your name being brought into this go read SC post in this thread, he brought you up.
> 
> Call it a win from the SC crowd on derailing this thread, if you wish. But I'm done with it and any further contact with any of you 3.
> [snapback]1032803[/snapback]​
Click to expand...










You gonna take your ball home now cuz you dont like how the game is being played ?


----------



## Grosse Gurke

33truballa33 said:


> u r the one that derailed this by commenting that alans post has no effect... u never cease to amaze me frank.. u r sh*t never stinks and all must take ur words as fact... im sure fink would have tons of info about how "moronic" u were in ur early days sorta like u call out every1 here that ever asked for ur help..
> [snapback]1032815[/snapback]​


This has turned into quite a joke of a thread. 2 people attacking Frank when the person he was supposed to be attacking has been very rational about this entire thread.

you should all be very proud of yourself


----------



## B. Scott

OK, people, you're really approching this the wrong way. I hear both sides and read both sides every day on this board and to be honest, I am sick of it. That's all I am gonna say about the foolishness here lately.

As for breeding Piraya--In my opinion, every person who has tried to do it has failed because they think Piraya are a shoaling Pygo like the others. They're aren't.

If you think your cool because you can keep 15 friggen Piraya in a 100-gallon aquarium then so be it. They will ruin each other when they become mature. They will do this in even the largest of aquariums and I have seen them do it in aquariums that were approximately 1000-gallons. So, if you want to brag about how many you can stuff in a small home aquarium for however long you have so far then good, brag for now but you will lose them eventaully and be left with ONE big, fat, toothy female in the end. Why, because that is fact. Did anyone read me article in TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN when I wrote on them?

I did the research i spoke to more hobbyists who have more credability then practically all of you combined and they couldn't do it. In the end, the most common answer was this: "well, in retrospect, i should have only bought a few"! Does that tell you all something???? It should people!!!

In nature, they don't shoal!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep them like a big nasty-ass pair of wolf cichlids and perhaps you'll have better luck. As a matter of fact, maybe I'll do this and actually make a mini-science project out of it. i already have one big one, so i may as well get another, right???

OK, I feel better now, thanks


----------



## Grosse Gurke

MR HARLEY said:


> You gonna take your ball home now cuz you dont like how the game is being played ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [snapback]1032832[/snapback]​


Once again a perfect display of maturity from the all knowing piranha keepers on this site.


----------



## serrasalmus_collector

There is no information on piraya bred by hobbyist. All anyone can do is share the experiences and their ideas. I do view piraya as a very different fish than S.Maculatus. The outlined breeding project, I have created for myself, and chose to share parts of; is nothing like the breeding of S.Maculatus. It was formulated from research, and it closely resembles the breeding of Heckle discus. We have a discus breeding in Michigan making claims to breeding a piranha with no breeding record. I can not validate he bred it, but know of 500 being moved. He may have imported them, or he may have bred them. Instead of disbelieving how he did it, I took the time to listen to the story.

I want to make some factual comments on my fish not being sexually mature. They are not in a river, and have had their growth reduced. I do know how to cut the fish open, and measure the eggs. Based on the size, I can give an accurate account of the sexual maturation. I do not kill my fish and won't do that. Anything other than that is pure speculation. The document on sexual maturation of P.Piraya that gives sizes they are sexually mature also states it only for fish in the Dam of Tres Miranas. I'm sure it's very easy to see my fish aren't there. It has also been pointed out other hobbyist have grown piraya to 10 inches in 13 months. Size of sexual maturation can be different in the home aquarium. That's should be common sense. Most piranhas will breed in captivity around 1.5 years. I am shooting for age as apposed to size, just for those curious.

Comments on large tank breeding sizes.
3 Years ago someone posting about breeding gold spilopleura in a 50 gallon tank would have been laughed at. Azuma mentioned breeding them in a 200 gallon tank. That was a standard hobbyist used in an attempt to duplicate it. I have gone and bred the same fish in 50 gallon breeders, and Frank has made reference to breeding them in 30 gallons of water. This should prove there is no carved in stone tank requirement to breed a given species. What was used yesterday can quickly change tomorrow. With this in mind and the nature of the fish, it's best to attempt in the largest tank you can afford.

Gross Gurke also has made some good points. Lengthy elaborate breedings are not required to breed piranhas. It works for me, so I stick with it.


----------



## B. Scott

The amount of bullshit that is constantly being displayed here is troubling. I think I'll continue to publish my research and experiences in the magazine, thanks anyway. Sucks too, i got some killer geryi shibby that would knock your doors off.


----------



## MR HARLEY

Grosse Gurke said:


> 33truballa33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> u r the one that derailed this by commenting that alans post has no effect... u never cease to amaze me frank.. u r sh*t never stinks and all must take ur words as fact... im sure fink would have tons of info about how "moronic" u were in ur early days sorta like u call out every1 here that ever asked for ur help..
> [snapback]1032815[/snapback]​
> 
> 
> 
> This has turned into quite a joke of a thread. 2 people attacking Frank when the person he was supposed to be attacking has been very rational about this entire thread.
> 
> you should all be very proud of yourself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [snapback]1032841[/snapback]​
Click to expand...

Thanks Gurke but The Attack has been Mutual so it does go both ways .


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## hastatus

> B. Scott Posted Today, 02:53 PM
> The amount of bullshit that is constantly being displayed here is troubling. I think *I'll continue to publish my research and experiences in the magazine, thanks anyway. Sucks too, i got some killer geryi shibby that would knock your doors off.*


I'll be joining you shortly, time to let these kiddies play.


----------



## MR HARLEY

Grosse Gurke said:


> MR HARLEY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You gonna take your ball home now cuz you dont like how the game is being played ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [snapback]1032832[/snapback]​
> 
> 
> 
> Once again a perfect display of maturity from the all knowing piranha keepers on this site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [snapback]1032854[/snapback]​
Click to expand...

Gurke , Do me a Favor , Why not start quoting frank on His mature Shots also , since Mine are always coming up ...
Your One of the Coolest people I talk to on here , But its not fare that your kind of sideing and not seeing it from both perspectives . 
Yea its all immature , Thats what Im getting at , If we can all come together and share our Finding, Beliefs ..etc , this would be a much more pleasent thread .


----------



## serrasalmus_collector

B. Scott said:


> If you think your cool because you can keep 15 friggen Piraya in a 100-gallon aquarium then so be it. They will ruin each other when they become mature. They will do this in even the largest of aquariums and I have seen them do it in aquariums that were approximately 1000-gallons. So, if you want to brag about how many you can stuff in a small home aquarium for however long you have so far then good, brag for now but you will lose them eventaully and be left with ONE big, fat, toothy female in the end. Why, because that is fact. Did anyone read me article in TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN when I wrote on them?
> 
> OK, I feel better now, thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [snapback]1032853[/snapback]​


I have nothing against you, and I really like you a lot. I have had a lot of luck keeping many species of the same kind of piranha together. I am going to continue on my path with the P.Piraya. I have so many fish because I am looking for a pair. Once a pair has been generated, I can hopefully get them to breed. Frank has told people piraya should be kept separate in their juvenile years, and introduce at the sub adult stage. I am just making reference of raising mine up together. It's not to argue, but let people know it can be done.

Your comments about cannibalism of many? If it happens it will be the 1st piranha, I have experienced this with. It will be a learning experience for me, and maybe something I need. I also want to point out that my goal is to achieve breeding when they 1st reach sexual maturity. Not old pirayas. My pirayas were saved by a dealer who saw thousands, and they were the smallest he ever saw. Please comment.

Ps maybe call me hardheaded. I prefer determined. Until I honestly experience this slaughter people reference about piraya. Nothing will change in my plan. No one better bash me for loosing fish. I seen many of them strawberry banana spilos and S.Sanchezi lost by members here. I do have more of a goal than show and tell.


----------



## Grosse Gurke

Harley....you jumped Frank for a post that was totally unrelated to you. You made the decission to jump in so as far as im concerned.....Frank can say anything he wants to you and truballa. I didnt see anything in Franks posting that deserved the disrespect you showed him. Even Alan has been man enough in this thread *not* to start bashing on people.....and he is the one you are supposedly defending.
People dissagree on the internet....thats what happens. And because of various posting styles and the fact that you can not actually see the person....there can be numerious ways to interpret a post. But anytime someone disagrees with Alan it is viewed as a personal attack and then a bunch of people jump in and start acting like 5 year olds. Kids bashing Frank when they have 6 months in the hobbie....acting like they know everything....it is a complete joke.

So Harley...to answer your question.....I think you and others should have stayed out of this from the begining....and this thread may have actually been productive.

*edit


----------



## MR HARLEY

Grosse Gurke said:


> Harley....you jumped Frank for a post that was totally unrelated to you. You made the decission to jump in so as far as im concerned.....Frank can say anything he wants to you and truballa. I didnt see anything in Franks posting that deserved the disrespect you showed him. Even Alan has been man enough in this thread to start bashing on people.....and he is the one you are supposedly defending.
> People dissagree on the internet....thats what happens. And because of various posting styles and the fact that you can not actually see the person....there can be numerious ways to interpret a post. But anytime someone disagrees with Alan it is viewed as a personal attack and then a bunch of people jump in and start acting like 5 year olds. Kids bashing Frank when they have 6 months in the hobbie....acting like they know everything....it is a complete joke.
> 
> So Harley...to answer your question.....I think you and others should have stayed out of this from the begining....and this thread may have actually been productive.
> [snapback]1032901[/snapback]​


Im sticking up for myself , but to tell someone there studies and fish mean nothing to a Hobbist to me is an out right attack . 
Thats fine on your response , I can respect it , But I ll say this , this is a debate forum , and if he dosent like reading what i put , to Take from frank " Dont read them ..If he or anyone wants attack people however its put , expect a response








You guys said it yourself , Trying to make p-fury better but If one of the mods or the so called god of piranhas does sh*t its ok ....***Shakes Head **

6 Months huh ?


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## Grosse Gurke

MR HARLEY said:


> Im sticking up for myself , but to tell someone there studies and fish mean nothing to a Hobbist to me is an out right attack .


He said that SC's post proves nothing....not that it doesnt mean anything...the is a distinct difference. He also said that the pictures of these fish living together does not have anything to do with breeding. SC pointed out that this is the first step in the breeding process...that is his opinion and he is quite capable of defending it.


> Thats fine on your response , I can respect it , But I ll say this , this is a debate forum , and if he dosent like reading what i put , to Take from frank " Dont read them ..If he or anyone wants attack people however its put , expect a response
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> You guys said it yourself , Trying to make p-fury better but If one of the mods or the so called god of piranhas does sh*t its ok ....***Shakes Head **


Frank and SC were having a debate based on their experiences and information they have gathered over the years. There was no need for you to post in this thread other than to antagonize Frank with coments like 
"Frank Have you breed piraya Before ?
And If You havent, How can you touch on it yourself ? Because what you have science you canspeak on it / but no Personnel expierence ?"
Well guess what....Neither have you or SC...or anyone else for that matter...so this would be a pretty fricken lonely thread if people were only allowed to talk from experience. And when your responses become personal in nature they have crossed the line in a "debate".
"and if he dosent like reading what i put , to Take from frank " Dont read them"
Maybe you should follow your own advice....and if you are not a participant in the debate, dont you think it is better for the people that are to work out what ever difference there are? Why did you feel the need to defend SC? He was reading the thread and posting.....he is an adult....so what reason could you have for jumping in?



> 6 Months huh ?


My coment about a limited amount of time in the hobbie was because this is not the first time Frank has been attacked by a group of members....many of which have less time in this hobby then 6 months. I have personally answered some very basic fish keeping questions for them......but in the next instance they are an expert on piranha behavior and believe they have the knowledge and right to attack Frank. And understand this also....it is always a group....never one person. Why is that? Frank is one person....but when ever there becomes a debate involving SC....it is never left up to Frank and SC to work out.....there is always a group of people that have nothing to add to the topic, have not been involved at all, but they feel the need to jump in and start bashing on Frank.....I wonder why that is.


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## acestro

serrasalmus_collector said:


> B. Scott said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you think your cool because you can keep 15 friggen Piraya in a 100-gallon aquarium then so be it. They will ruin each other when they become mature. They will do this in even the largest of aquariums and I have seen them do it in aquariums that were approximately 1000-gallons. So, if you want to brag about how many you can stuff in a small home aquarium for however long you have so far then good, brag for now but you will lose them eventaully and be left with ONE big, fat, toothy female in the end. Why, because that is fact. Did anyone read me article in TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN when I wrote on them?
> 
> OK, I feel better now, thanks
> 
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> [snapback]1032853[/snapback]​
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> 
> I have nothing against you, and I really like you a lot. I have had a lot of luck keeping many species of the same kind of piranha together. I am going to continue on my path with the P.Piraya. I have so many fish because I am looking for a pair. Once a pair has been generated, I can hopefully get them to breed. Frank has told people piraya should be kept separate in their juvenile years, and introduce at the sub adult stage. I am just making reference of raising mine up together. It's not to argue, but let people know it can be done.
> 
> Your comments about cannibalism of many? If it happens it will be the 1st piranha, I have experienced this with. It will be a learning experience for me, and maybe something I need. I also want to point out that my goal is to achieve breeding when they 1st reach sexual maturity. Not old pirayas. My pirayas were saved by a dealer who saw thousands, and they were the smallest he ever saw. Please comment.
> 
> Ps maybe call me hardheaded. I prefer determined. Until I honestly experience this slaughter people reference about piraya. Nothing will change in my plan. No one better bash me for loosing fish. I seen many of them strawberry banana spilos and S.Sanchezi lost by members here. I do have more of a goal than show and tell.
> [snapback]1032894[/snapback]​
Click to expand...

I'm a non-p enthusiast so I'll only post one comment here. It seems that this 'hardheaded-ness' exists because of a refusal to accept information that has been gathered by others. The hobby, and science in general (let's not prove the world isn't flat all over again) rests on the shoulders of former acheivment and discovery. My question is; why do you think this is going to change in your small scale system?

Aren't there better avenues to go if you really want to learn about keeping animals in groups or breeding? Maybe build a huge indoor pond?


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## serrasalmus_collector

acestro said:


> Aren't there better avenues to go if you really want to learn about keeping animals in groups or breeding? Maybe build a huge indoor pond?
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No!!! I have a lot invested in the project.

If you read my all my posts there is mention of a final stage being in a 700 gallon tank. My previous post was directed to B.Scott Stating* "Piraya are not shoaling piranhas and like a wolf fish."*

I am deeply researching this and asking some ichthyologist I converse with to validate his statements. I take the time to explain myself, and B.Scott has not in my opinion given evidence to support his statement. Nothing other than people here do not like the word shoal and this is not the topic of his statement. My project was declared an outlined experiment based on research.

There are other details that I choose not to share, but for the most my fish are doing exactly what was predicted; this is the reason to continue.

To make reference to P.Piraya being like wolf fish negates everything I have ever read, even in scientific studies performed by highly degreed scholars in the field. If I remember correctly they were the 1st fish to get the Pygocentrus classification. I may be wrong on that, but everything found relates Pygocentrus = Bulldog head and naturally occurring in groups.

The statements of them cannibalizing in a 1000 gallon tank does not deter me. I have information of many reds cannibalizing in a 4000 gallon tank set up by a zoo. This does not give me the right to say they don't work as a group. I personally want to know how he came across this statement to be a fact!!!

I may have only 3 years in the hobby, and I really don't care if Frank has declared not to converse with me. I am here to hear facts and personal opinions <*Preferably by people who have owned the species*>. That is all I have presented. It may have lead to a debate but that's not a bad thing. It gets ideas from 2 different perspectives and may get to a unified truth. This has lead to a scientific direction about the actions of Pygocentrus Piraya being similar to wolf fish. I don't want to be rude, but perhaps people who do not have this species or have had them should follow the thread and see what transpires&#8230;. <This with exception of the topic starter, he wants to raise them up and breed them> * This topic in my opinion is about the actions of piraya as a group in captivity, and the theoretical breeding of them. This topic is of interest to me. It would be wonderful if every post was about the fish.* It has to be theoretical because there is no information of success. A failed attempt in my oppinion is just that. It's worthy of conversation but not scientific fact, just personal experience. Failed attemps leading to cannibalism do not carry the same weight as the statements of successful breeding. Anyone breeding a piranha should know it's violent, and can kill them. Success does not always result in death.

PS.
I have also talked with and visited importers who have brought these fish in by the thousands. They have asked their collectors how they were caught. They said nets because they group together. And this is all sizes or P.Piraya. This I can track down and validate. Factual statements about how they are collected and the information about the breeding in a dam gives me the conclusion they naturally group. Please support your statement with fact and reasons B.Scott. I am await your reply. I also want to point out this dealer brought in wolf-fish. They did not even amount to 2% of the piraya he brought in. Because they did not group together like the Pygocentrus piraya :nod:


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## B. Scott

serrasalmus_collector said:


> If you read my all my posts there is mention of a final stage being in a 700 gallon tank. My previous post was directed to B.Scott Stating* "Piraya are not shoaling piranhas and like a wolf fish."*


Please have a look at my previous posts and see that they remain un editied. OK, now, look at the quote above; where the hell did I mention anything about Wolf fish??? Do tell.

Alan, I don't have time to sit on the boards and explain myself to you. You have my number, call me and we'll chat. From our previous conversations, you already know that I prefer talking to typing anyway. I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Best fishes,


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## serrasalmus_collector

B. Scott said:


> OK, people, you're really approching this the wrong way. I hear both sides and read both sides every day on this board and to be honest, I am sick of it. That's all I am gonna say about the foolishness here lately.
> 
> As for breeding Piraya--In my opinion, every person who has tried to do it has failed because they think Piraya are a shoaling Pygo like the others. They're aren't.
> 
> If you think your cool because you can keep 15 friggen Piraya in a 100-gallon aquarium then so be it. They will ruin each other when they become mature. They will do this in even the largest of aquariums and I have seen them do it in aquariums that were approximately 1000-gallons. So, if you want to brag about how many you can stuff in a small home aquarium for however long you have so far then good, brag for now but you will lose them eventaully and be left with ONE big, fat, toothy female in the end. Why, because that is fact. Did anyone read me article in TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN when I wrote on them?
> 
> I did the research i spoke to more hobbyists who have more credability then practically all of you combined and they couldn't do it. In the end, the most common answer was this: "well, in retrospect, i should have only bought a few"! Does that tell you all something???? It should people!!!
> 
> *In nature, they don't shoal!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Keep them like a big nasty-ass pair of wolf cichlids and perhaps you'll have better luck. As a matter of fact, maybe I'll do this and actually make a mini-science project out of it. i already have one big one, so i may as well get another, right???*
> 
> OK, I feel better now, thanks
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I will call you. Perhaps I mis understood your post


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## B. Scott

Oh yes, HaHaHa, those are actually wolf cichlids when I thought you were saying that I said wolf fish (obviously entirely different, LOL). That's the way I think, sorry, i know it's stupid and nit-picky but what can I say, LOL.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing from you.

Best fishes,


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## serrasalmus_collector

Ha ha ha on me too. I actually only study piranhas and thought a wolf cichlid was a synonym for a wolf fish. My bad. No need to go into the shoaling word. It's not liked here, and I can respect that.

Please PM me your number again. I think I lost it. Like franks site gets many hits, I get over 300 PMs a bi-weekly and constantly answer and delete them.


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## serrasalmus_collector

Thanks for bringing some order back to this thread. Perhaps we can continue. It does interest me, and the input of others is very important to the topic starter and me.

Perhaps I still have some problems conveying my thought online. I will make this simple and understandable.

I am also attempting to raise Piraya in hopes of breeding them. There is a multitude of fish used to increase the statistical odds of natural pairing. It appears logical that the more fish that can be around each other, the greater the odds of natural pairing. Spawning sites will be set up at both ends of the tank with sliding traps about 3 feet away. This will allow me to drop the trap, and capture all Piraya but the pair. Hopefully the disturbance will not stop everything entirely. They will have 8 feet of swim space to escape aggression from the mate.

I had a Ternetzi Piraya mixed tank last summer the only Piraya in the tank exhibited what I believe to be breeding behavior. He swam in loops over a particular area for over 2 weeks. What the fish was doing is totally unknown to me. I just want to re-create the identical conditions with many Piraya. That's it on my ideas.


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## B. Scott

SC,

I respect your projects and very much look forward to seeing how the piraya project goes. It was nice talking to you as always and I'll be in touch soon.

Best fishes,


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## acestro

as long as you're as likely to admit to failure as to breeding success, it's all good. Just dont disappear or do any 'spin doctoring' if things fall apart and we will give props if you are successful.









so, you guys are talking about this wolf fish, right?....


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## B. Scott

LOL, thanks Tom. Yes, that's the one!!!!


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## serrasalmus_collector

acestro said:


> as long as you're as likely to admit to failure as to breeding success, it's all good. Just dont disappear or do any 'spin doctoring' if things fall apart and we will give props if you are successful.
> 
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> 
> so, you guys are talking about this wolf fish, right?....
> [snapback]1034079[/snapback]​


Yes my friend. Everything is documented and put together very nicely. I make a minimum of weekly videos, and take pictures many times a week. I death is a very sad thing to happen to a hobbyist, but I have done a wonderful write up on my single death. Here is a copy of my entry of the only death and a pic. I am sharing this to let you know, I am hiding nothing.

*Septemter 12, 2004*
Well today was an atrocity. I lost my 1st piraya of my colony. There are many possibilities as to why it happened. I am going to blame myself. This is the 1st week I have worked 7 days since February. After returning home from work today, I was exhausted. All the piraya were fine. I took a nap, and didn't do my routine work. When I awoken one was floating on the top of the tank. The fish was savagely cannibalized by his/her tank mates.

I took pictures of the poor cannibalized piranha. To my amazement he was 5 inches TL, and not the biggest in the colony. With that in mind, it appears they grow quite swiftly. There has been a lot of information online about piraya being the slowest growing of all the pygos. From my limited experience with the fish, I personally dis-agree. It appears my fish have grown close to in inch every month. They appear to grow actually quicker than the reds I raised and bred. It took my reds a year to reach 7 inches. These guys were purchased at 1.5 inches during the later part of March 2004. Roughly 5 months, and 2 weeks later they are definitely pushing 5 inches and more. Perhaps once the reach 5 to 6 inches their growth will slow down. I honestly don't know. But what ever this colony does, will be posted in this thread.

Here are the pics depicting what has happened, and the length of the fish.

View attachment 62191


PS. This is my personal work. There may not be many more pictures, but I will keep everyone up to date on the occurences


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## acestro

..that's the only wolffish I know about...









Just know that this is anecdotal information (including the direct and indirect field observations). I think some of the concerns here are regarding whether or not this is science. It isn't (not that that is a bad thing). I will say that close observations can only help!

That's frightening what those fish can do to each other!!!


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## acestro

To add to above post... Your detailed observations are key and do demonstrate that you are being forthcoming with all information.


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## B. Scott

WOW Alan, that was awefully fast. We just spoke about this happening, to. Ugg, it is a sad day when ones goes south like that. I hope that the others don't follow suit.

Please allow me to offer a suggestion; sit in fron of the tank for a while this weekend and just stay still and watch intensily. I bet you will develope a good idea of which one initiated the slaughter.

Good luck and I'll be in touch.


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## acestro

I'd like to add here that there is a scientific article about piraya reproduction out there. I dont have a copy but I'd bet Frank does. You might have to learn Portugese, however...


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## acestro

B. Scott said:


> WOW Alan, that was awefully fast. We just spoke about this happening, to. Ugg, it is a sad day when ones goes south like that. I hope that the others don't follow suit.
> 
> Please allow me to offer a suggestion; sit in fron of the tank for a while this weekend and just stay still and watch intensily. I bet you will develope a good idea of which one initiated the slaughter.
> 
> Good luck and I'll be in touch.
> [snapback]1034231[/snapback]​


I think that he lost that fish last fall. Either way, I've always advocated LOOOOONG looks at fish in their tanks (until they start ignoring you and acting normal). That's good advice. To add to that, the video information should be very interesting.


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## B. Scott

Tom,

I think Alan has it and had it translated already. It's specifically about a population by a dam or something like that.

Info Alan???


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## serrasalmus_collector

acestro said:


> I'd like to add here that there is a scientific article about piraya reproduction out there. I dont have a copy but I'd bet Frank does. You might have to learn Portugese, however...
> [snapback]1034235[/snapback]​


I've got it, and translated into English. B.Scott. That fish was cannibalized in September 8 months ago. That was my only casualty. I just want people to know, I am accruately documenting all actions occuring in the tank.

You are 100% correct. That death at 5 inches actually brought a little fear to me. All the rumors about them going on killing sprees at their juvenile stage. This was relayed to me by a dealer who lost hundreds at that size. Had I lost 10 that night, all would have been laid out and photographed. I personally hate to hear about people breeding fish, and you don't see how the interacted 2 ,3, or 4 months prior to the breeding. Instead of bitching about what others do, I initiate a change in the way I present information. It may catch on, and there is the change I have been looking for.


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## B. Scott

acestro said:


> B. Scott said:
> 
> 
> 
> WOW Alan, that was awefully fast. We just spoke about this happening, to. Ugg, it is a sad day when ones goes south like that. I hope that the others don't follow suit.
> 
> Please allow me to offer a suggestion; sit in fron of the tank for a while this weekend and just stay still and watch intensily. I bet you will develope a good idea of which one initiated the slaughter.
> 
> Good luck and I'll be in touch.
> [snapback]1034231[/snapback]​
> 
> 
> 
> I think that he lost that fish last fall. Either way, I've always advocated LOOOOONG looks at fish in their tanks (until they start ignoring you and acting normal). That's good advice. To add to that, the video information should be very interesting.
> [snapback]1034239[/snapback]​
Click to expand...

Oh Lord, sorry about that. Perhaps I should actually read the posts!!!!

ggrrr, thanks!!


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## acestro

Reproductive aspects of piranha Pygocentrus piraya (Teleostei, Characiformes), a native species from the Rio Sao Francisco Basin, Brazil

by Ferreria et al 1996

for those who are curious


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## serrasalmus_collector

B. Scott said:


> Tom,
> 
> I think Alan has it and had it translated already. It's specifically about a population by a dam or something like that.
> 
> Info Alan???
> [snapback]1034249[/snapback]​


I am at work and don't have the document now. But is was about.
They collected itself 316 copy of P. piraya (151 females and 165 males) during the period of July/ 1985 to June/1986 in the dam of Three Marias - MG. The fish were captured with aid of nets.

The validated the size at which the male and females reached sexual maturity. The end of the article clearly states its only for fish in the dam of Three Marias. They give refference to other documents that acknowlege different growths from different localities. It as a wonderful document to own.

Search the teoma search engine for PDF files, you will find it. Systran pro will translate it .


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## acestro

Close, here is the abstract:

Gonads of 305 specimens of Pygocentrus piraya captured at Tres Marias reservoir, MG, from July/85 to June/86, were histologically analyzed. The developmental stages of the oocytes and of the gonads were determined. This piranha is a partial spawner species seems to reproduce in Tres Marias reservoir from January to April, when the water level is increasing. There are evidences that the males are able to reproduce during the whole year period. Spent males were not observed.


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## acestro

what about this paper:

Magurran and Queiroz 2003. Partner choice in piranha shoals. Behaviour. Vol. 140 (3). March 2003. 289-299


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## hastatus

Just a few quick comments:

I've been around piranhas since 1957. P. piraya has been in my collection in the 1970's and is presently in my collection today. As well as many other fishes be they live or in formalin. THis information is for Alan's benefit since it strongly appears he didn't know that.

I find it highly egotistical to suggest home aquarium expuriments are going to change the face of the earth. This is the internet children and as pointed out by my colleques, it ain't science. But it is a discussion that none should disrupt just because they might not like someone. That certainly was something I was not doing during this discussion with Alan.

For the rest of you that applies; If attacking me is your thing, so be it. Don't bother me, but certainly makes you and what you represent look bad. And Alan should also be condemning these other people as well, since this discussion was between him and I. Something obviously noted not happening.

As for SC, good luck with your aquariums, it ain't nothing new, but it is interesting for the young crowd that are just coming into the hobby or don't know any better.

Later, got other more important things to work on than engage in meaningless diatribes with incoherent statements from the peanut gallery.









As it stands now, I had to add additional comments between two windows that I'm working on for the re-edit button is not working properly because of it. So my thoughts are now complete on this topic and I need to get back to work. See you all in a couple months.


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## serrasalmus_collector

hastatus said:


> Just a few quick comments:
> 
> As for SC, good luck with your aquariums, it ain't nothing new, but it is interesting for the young crowd that are just coming into the hobby *or don't know any better*.
> 
> Later, got other more important things to work on than engage in meaningless diatribes with incoherent statements from the peanut gallery.
> 
> [snapback]1035367[/snapback]​


Are any of us really doing anything new???? Perhaps someday I will be as wise as you. The losing of the entire species of sanchezi, with the exception of 1; in your tub test took some real experience to achieve. But yet we all watched attentively as you reported their deaths. I appologize for not having anything exciting like cannibalism or agressive feeding from my fish. They are rasied to co-exist for long periods of time, and hopefully breed.

I'm gonna hold my head up and enjoy my fish. They continue to live, and I will share the organized information with all who are interested.

Are not the 250 daily hobbyist here to offer advice, and help those who as you put it *don't **know any better *









I guess the only thing for me to do is report back when there is a death. The way things are going with my group there may not be another report for a lonnnng time. I will continue to phtograph, video tape, and document all occuances in an ancient and un-new fashion.


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## hastatus

1. You are still not condemning the actions of those friends of yours.

2. You are still not reading properly what I wrote here or at the OPEFE web pages. Bad habit with you.

Later~


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## serrasalmus_collector

hastatus said:


> 1. You are still not condemning the actions of those friends of yours.
> 
> 2. You are still not reading properly what I wrote here or at the OPEFE web pages. Bad habit with you.
> 
> Later~
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You do not realize, I am not here to condem or scritinize people. I am here to stricly talk about fish, and what occurs in my tanks. If there are debates, I will politely discuss my point. I admit I don't do the normal things with my fish. Yet they live and stay together. That is why my posts can be very contraversial. But I am firm in my ideas and have living fish and time together to support it. Perhaps someday I will experience the autrocities I have been warned about. But untill that day, I talk about fish co-existing, and hopefully breeding. That is my primary objective in the hobby.

Perhaps a PM will let me understand how you want me to deal with members???

Why should members have to condem other members????

We have had this arguement years ago. I believe in freedom of expression.


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## hastatus

> *You do not realize, I am not here to condem or scritinize people. Perhaps that's your interests.* I am here to stricly talk about fish, and what occurs in my tanks. If there are debates, I will politely discuss my point. I admit I don't do the normal things with my fish. Yet they live and stay together. That is why my posts can be very contraversial. But I am firm in my ideas and have living fish and time together to support it. Perhaps someday I will experience the autrocities I have been warned about. But untill that day, I talk about fish co-existing, and hopefully breeding. That is my primary objective in the hobby.
> 
> Perhaps a PM will let me understand how you want me to deal with members???
> 
> *Why should members have to condem other members????
> 
> We have had this arguement years ago. I believe in freedom of expression. *


Nope, lets do this here.

1. This discussion was between you and me. Your friends chimed in and attacked me. Now if you wanted to be between you and me, then if you had any sense of decorum, you should have spoke up and said, hey clowns, this is between me and Frank, knock it off I can reply for myself without you chiming in. Instead, you casually sat back and let them take pot shots for you. That is not only cowardly, but speaks volumes on how you truly view this discussion with me.

2. Now you are taking pot shots at me. In case you missed it, I highlited in bold for you, which is ok. Your finally getting up nerve. As I stated above, it speaks volumes on why you are here. If you have this agenda to prove your fish tanks are the basis for "co-existence" more power to you. Again, I wish you luck. But it is just ONE TANK and ONE OPINION and quite old.

You see Alan, the thing you just don't get and continuously ignore is the fact my information, my basis for educating hobbyists is to take ALL THE INFORMATION and form an opinion based on facts FROM EVERYONE to reach a conclusion. NOT just ONE TANK OR ONE OCCURENCE. This conclusion does not come about from just 3 or 4 years, but over 40 years of experience. Something you sorely lack. That is not your fault. You are trying to learn which is good. But at the same time, attacking me is not going to amount to a hill of beans because in all manner of speaking you are NOT the level of experience that I have or at the level of experience of other far more advanced hobbyists on the world-wide internet. Who also show the proper respect to each other. Many of these folks have asked me behind the scenes why do I waste my time answering you, its quite simple. I hope that one day, you will take your head out of the clouds and realize just how unimportant arguing is over things that you yourself have stated that you have no experience on. In otherwords, you continuously shoot the messenger and ignore the facts as they are written. Often times, what I write, goes completely over your head. Again, I find no fault in that. I write true and straight to the point. I do that with EVERYONE at this forum and on the telephone.

Now for the sake of everyone, I'm done here. And while my colleques may laugh at me for even re-engaging this discussion with you. Still there is hope for you that you will someday come to appreciate those that came before you. But then again, I doubt it based on this thread and your history.

Bye, bye now. Any further comments from you will now remain unanswered by me. As it should be.


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## serrasalmus_collector

Dude you got some problems. You are a hobbyist and enthusiast just as I am. If you want to know some cold hard facts. Come off you high horse. You do not have a PhD in any of the sciences and your are not legally permitted to declare you are a scientist. Realize we are all the same here. Some more knowledgeable and experienced than others but that's it. Some better in certain areas than others. Working together is the only way to have fun in the hobby.

I have had many conversations with Professor William Fink and he thinks my cohabitation and breeding experiments are a good thing. All with the exception of interbreeding fish from the spilopleura group. Do you remember when I had eggs from my S.Sanchezi and asked your for positive identifying methods.

You commented its privileged only between a scientific team. Well I have befriended the person your site references the most. I may be donating some fish to him for genetic study. Those are some cold hard facts about what an inexperienced hobbyist for 3 years is doing. Funny the man in the scientific circle doesn't know this information.

Contact him and you will find the exact same information, unless he deems you un-worthy of the information. I am here to strictly learn, and share information. That is all.

To point out another thing to you. Finks information and acceptance in what I do means far more than your puns and words. <*Because anywhere in the world he is recognized as a scientist*.> Forums and websites are not been acknowledged as anything scientific. Please remember that. It's all the work of a layman no matter how deep you look into it.

Peace my brother. Remember we all originate for the Loins of Adam. It's better to love than hate. It's truly better to realize no human is above another.


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## hastatus

Enjoy the read.


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## serrasalmus_collector

hastatus said:


> Enjoy the read.
> [snapback]1035524[/snapback]​


You are truly cluless my man. That is not even the species he and I are talking about genitic testing. Guess for once you are the one out in the dark. Sanchezi was refferenced to show your arrogance and hoarding of information. I personally have Sanchezi identifying information and have yet to see it on your site. There are some things very wrong on your site also. But you will find it out in time. Perhaps you should spend some more time in your scientific circle.

I like you have a site to build, I have grown tired with your struggle for power, and to be the best.

*Just learn to keep your serras alive and together for 3 years like I have. then we can talk.*

Does that sound familar??? I kept my end of the deal. Can we now talk... My 1st question is to vailidate proof that you have kept fish together for 3 years.

E-mail me


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## hastatus

Enjoy these also. There are more, but I'm sure everyone gets the idea.


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## serrasalmus_collector

hastatus said:


> Enjoy these also. There are more, but I'm sure everyone gets the idea.:laugh:
> [snapback]1035527[/snapback]​


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## hastatus

SC see's this as a so-called "power struggle" (ego-talk). I see this as simply providing him and others facts on what I have done and continue to do for science for quite a few number of years. So the only thing laughable here is that he ignores "FACTS".



> *My 1st question is to vailidate proof that you have kept fish together for 3 years.*
> 
> E-mail me










Oh my. Should I be concerned?








Sorry Alan, your email is blocked and has been for some time. I suggest you continue to email Fink. He can help you.


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## serrasalmus_collector

hastatus said:


> SC see's this as a so-called "power struggle" (ego-talk). *I see this as simply providing him and others facts on what I have done and continue to do for science for quite a few number of years.* So the only thing laughable here is that he ignores "FACTS".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *My 1st question is to vailidate proof that you have kept fish together for 3 years.*
> 
> E-mail me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my. Should I be concerned?:laugh:
> Sorry Alan, your email is blocked and has been for some time. I suggest you continue to email Fink. He can help you.
> [snapback]1035557[/snapback]​
Click to expand...

This topic was about piraya. Please feel free to present your information on Piraya. That is what intersts me. What have you done with them?

Thanks for pointing out who I should E-mail for questions. I can not dis-agree with you on that statement.

I have one more thing to add. Since Frank has declared his work is science; and one fish tank means nothing you are very wrong. I want to point out that I have a degree in Physics with is considered a science. I am going for a Masters, and probably get a Phd, so I can talk with people like you who know everything about science.

When using the scientific method a hypothesis is created. This is the reason to experiment in hope of creating a theory, fact, law; it must repeatably produce a predicted result over a defined time; what is your time Frank? Example. To say a piranha can not live out of water for 50 hours, can be more fact than some of your words. Once a scientific theory is made and published, it can be tested. Others perform experiments, and if they do not get the predicted result; the theory is abolished or re-worded. Typically it will get changed and start back at a hypothesis and be tested. For any true science to disregard any result that does not correlate directly to Enforced ideas. Well I just can't say the word to what it is. I want us all to be on the correct definition of Facts, Laws, and Theories. You are the person who gets caught on words Frank. Now I want you to express your utilization of the word fact truly living up to it's meaning. Tell me the true Facts about Piraya grouped together. Not speculation , Hypthesis; but Facts.

Frank has made a good point that this is a public argument between he and I. I do not need anyone to attack him. I just want his answers quickly and directly.

I will repeat myself and say I look forward to true scientific discussions with Frank.

{Definition of Scientific Fact Definition: [n] an observation that has been confirmed repeatedly and is accepted as true (*although its truth is never final*)

The link with definition.
*Scientific Fact*

Never final means it can alway be tested or proven to not be a fact

Definition of Fact. You fall within definition 2

a concept whose truth can be proved; "*scientific hypotheses are not facts*" 
{Definition of fact)
*Defintion of fact*

Can I be so bold to challenge you to prove your Fact??? I do have the fish to perform the study with. I will perform the study. What will be the factual outcome? And tell my for how long.

If you can not accept the challenge, you can not proclaim your words the words of science or a fact.


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## acestro

Aw now you've aroused my ire. Try to publish what you're doing in any peer-reviewed scientific journal and you will be rejected immediately. The reason being; this is not science, there are no replicates, no controls. I'll leave it at that.


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## serrasalmus_collector

acestro said:


> Aw now you've aroused my ire. Try to publish what you're doing in any peer-reviewed scientific journal and you will be rejected immediately. The reason being; this is not science, there are no replicates, no controls. I'll leave it at that.
> [snapback]1035756[/snapback]​


[quote name='hastatus' date='May 21 2005, 10:35 PM']
I see this as simply providing him and others* facts on what I have done and continue to do for science *for quite a few number of years. So the only thing laughable here is that he ignores "FACTS".

I am not the one who has called it science or facts. I'm just posting my experiences. Frank Magellans in the person who replied with scientific fact about piraya groups. I want to know where, and how he has come to that classification.

All I ever wanted to do was share my experiences with fish.
I am not looking to publish anything. Just breed them

Just forget it. Perhaps another thread can be started, and hobbyist share their personal experiences. My input is now worthless in this thred.


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## acestro

> I am not the one who has called it science or facts. I'm just posting my experiences.


That's fine, perhaps I misunderstood. In the hobby this is where most of our information comes from. Good luck with the fish, they are really sharp looking by the way!


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## Piranha King




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## mashunter18

serrasalmus_collector said:


> acestro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aw now you've aroused my ire. Try to publish what you're doing in any peer-reviewed scientific journal and you will be rejected immediately. The reason being; this is not science, there are no replicates, no controls. I'll leave it at that.
> [snapback]1035756[/snapback]​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hastatus said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see this as simply providing him and others* facts on what I have done and continue to do for science *for quite a few number of years. So the only thing laughable here is that he ignores "FACTS".
> 
> I am not the one who has called it science or facts. I'm just posting my experiences. Frank Magellans in the person who replied with scientific fact about piraya groups. I want to know where, and how he has come to that classification.
> 
> All I ever wanted to do was share my experiences with fish.
> I am not looking to publish anything. Just breed them
> 
> Just forget it. Perhaps another thread can be started, and hobbyist share their personal experiences. My input is now worthless in this thred.
> [snapback]1035763[/snapback]​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why are you so anti opefe and against Frank, thats what it seems like to me??
> 
> What I see is you will go and get this info from all over the net, but lots of it was at opefe to begin with, all the references at the bottem of each page.
> 
> I know you have info that is not listed at opefe, maybe Frank knew about the info, maybe he didnt, maybe he choose not to post it, maybe not.I understand you have documnets he doesnt or maybe he does have them etc..
> 
> Are you saying Frank never helped you out along the way??Why do you go out of your way to go around Frank and opefe??
> 
> Yes I am an opefe supporter, and I was one of the first to join your site.My name is on opefe for donations, and I participate at your place, so nothing one sided.
> 
> What it looks like to me is a delebirate intent to get opefe info, then go find it in different places.
> 
> Thats what I see, thats what it appears your trying to do.
> 
> Now to talk piaray again
> 
> I posted some minimal information in this thread about one of the things I saw with my fish, my response was for your pictures, but you would rather try and put Frank down then talk fish.
> 
> I grew 9 to 8" or so together before, with no deaths, it's when they get bigger, 2 guys local here had lots of problems when their piraya reached 9-10", but nothing when smaller.I had no problems when smaller.My opionion when they get bigger is when your more likely to have problems.
Click to expand...


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## serrasalmus_collector

I will continue to talk about fish Mashunter. This point at when piraya become very aggressive, and start to kill one another interests me. I was informed that from 3 to 6 inches was the age when the problems occur. Opefe somewhat references from Juvenile to sub adult is the time of danger. There was a local dealer who lost hundreds of piraya at that size. He expressed to me most situations was a single fish. The fish would kill 5 or more tank mates until discovered. You mention 9 to 10 inches. I believe you and your statements, and that's the type of hobbyist information I seek.

I do want to point out that there has been some aggression in my tank, and well documented. April 18, 2005 some of the mild aggression was captured. Here is what occurred. Many people may think this is a bad video, but no harm came to my fish; it's what happens when wild piranhas are grouped together. I don't want to inflame or promote any more arguments. I just personally deal with highly agressive piranhas grouped together every single day of my life. I can only hope that if things are leading in a cannibalistic direction, it is noticed.

This video like a picture just dipicts a moment in time. But I think it quite accurately shows the methods they attack. Direct body shots.

Enjoy


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## Xenon

I dont even know what is trying to be communicated in this thread anymore. Time to shut it down as some sensless bickering has nothing to do with conversing about how to breed fish.


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## hastatus

> serrasalmus_collector Posted Today, 12:00 PM
> I will continue to talk about fish Mashunter. This point at when piraya become very aggressive, and start to kill one another interests me. I was informed that from 3 to 6 inches was the age when the problems occur. *Opefe somewhat references from Juvenile to sub adult is the time of danger. There was a local dealer who lost hundreds of piraya at that size. He expressed to me most situations was a single fish. The fish would kill 5 or more tank mates until discovered. You mention 9 to 10 inches. I believe you and your statements, and that's the type of hobbyist information I seek.*
> 
> I do want to point out that there has been some aggression in my tank, and well documented. April 18, 2005 some of the mild aggression was captured. Here is what occurred. Many people may think this is a bad video, but no harm came to my fish; it's what happens when wild piranhas are grouped together. I don't want to inflame or promote any more arguments. I just personally deal with highly agressive piranhas grouped together every single day of my life. I can only hope that if things are leading in a cannibalistic direction, it is noticed.
> 
> This video like a picture just dipicts a moment in time. But I think it quite accurately shows the methods they attack. Direct body shots.
> 
> Enjoy


I'm reopening Mike since Alan is again miquoting my information noted in BOLD:

A full grown P. piraya adult is approximately 20 inches, subadult is approximately 10 inches.

So Alan, please get your FACTS right.

Now we can close it.


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