# Hybrids = Painted fish???



## rday (Mar 10, 2003)

I saw thing link on Pfish from anubaisscott Sick hybrids
They breed similar parrot fish like this. IMO, this is as bad as the process of "painting" fish that Innes has described. At least with painting fish, most of them die and don't have to suffer, while these fish are forced to suffer through life deformed and retarded. This goes way beyond asthetics. This is an example of people trying to "play God" and create a fish that has no chance of surviving in nature. This is truly sickening and I am once again disgusted with being human. I used to think flowerhorns and parrots were just not my thing, but sh*t like this makes me hope that this disgusting trend dies out QUICKLY.


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## Lahot (May 20, 2003)

very intelligent post there.

why don't you go shoot all those dogs that aren't pure breds running around your neighborhood while you're at it...and don't get me going on cats.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

hmmm......
I agree with some of your post but not all. My understanding is that cichlids crossbreed all the time. Im sure this happens in nature so i dont see that as being a big deal. Im not for creating species but as lahot said, we do it all the time. Most of the pure bred dogs started out as a cross breed between 2 pure breds to get the desired characteristics....same thing is going on here and if you dont like them, dont buy them.

My gf got a couple parrot fish because she liked the look (i have no idea why) and this was before we got together. Is it her fault she did not invistigate the breeders of this fish? I dont think blaming the buyers of these fish is the answer because 90% of people that buy a designer fish are new into the hobby and just dont know better.


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## rday (Mar 10, 2003)

Lahot- very intelligent post yourself. dog are all Canis familiaris, not crossbreeds of that with some other species of animal. come back when you have something valid to say.

gg- im also sure some negligable degree of crossbreeding occurs in nature, but one of the basis of species is that they do not interbreed with other species in natural environments. that can be due to something as simple as geographic limitations, meaning that if those boundries were removed, crossbreeding could or even would occur. however, take lake malawi cichlids for example, those geographic boundries can be as simple as different parts of a lake. they simply do not leave their habitat and therefore do not cross. as for buyers of these monstrosities, it is the same as that of painted fish. if there is no buyer, the supply will stop. as for your girlfriend, im sorry i gave her the finger. im guessing we are all guilty of purchasing something without research and not understanding the possible problems with our purchase. i bought some bosmani rainbows before researching them and finding out they are threatened in nature due to overcollection for the aquarium trade...


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

I personally am not particually against hybrid fish


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

They still wild catch bosemani's? Damn, I've bred turquoise, but I guess plenty of breedable fish will be brought in from the wild until breeders lessen the demand.

This is an interesting topic that takes the hobby to a moral level (once again! ). I think injecting fish is [email protected] up, period. Hybridization is also bad but in 'grades' or levels. The fact that culls of flowerhorns get thrown into nature or that some hybrids can't swim/breed/breathe right is [email protected] up. Our appreciation of what these fish are and where they come from is lost in hybrids. But let's not compare dogs, seriously.

Hybridization is fine with me if the fish aren't grostesquely deformed (parrotfish, some FH) or the processes producing them doesn't do damage to the environment (FH). Guppies have been selectively bred (and this may be more comparable to dogs) to a point beyond nature. They're no real threat to our environment or a perversion of what a guppy is. It's just a shame that less and less tanks are devoted to the products of hundreds of millions of years of evolution. But that's purist speak, to each their own.

On a side note, the argument that we are potential future conservationists because we have fish that are disappearing in the wild is BULLSHIT. Fix the problems with the environment, don't just assume that because you have blue-eyed plecos still in captivity that there is hope for their re-introduction. Ecology is more complex than that. Okay, rant over.







to me for not shutting up!


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

rant NOT over. Get flowerhorns if you want, hell get a bonzai tree and some bulldogs with respiratory problems and chihuahuas with eyes practically falling out of their heads. While you're at it get those bubble eyed goldfish, painted glass fish, hairless rats, an albino cornsnake, and a significant other with $30,000 in plastic surgery. I don't care!

Alternatively, nature has cranked out sh*t that's not only more cool, there's also fascinating histories and stories behind how they came about. This latest perversion (no tail) has been done on a grand, beautiful, and elegant scale with the massive Ocean Sunfish....


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## Kory (Jun 5, 2003)

having a bad day Acestro.









You do make good points though like always.


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

wow, your jumping on the hate bandwago Rday. You should spend a little time around flowerhorn keepers before you make assumptions. If you go to flowerhornusa, you will never ever see these mutated fish come up. Flowerhorn keepers are not intrested in perverting nature.(most dont see the cross breed thing as a problem since they are the same genus and will breed if put together) More like maximizing genetic potential through selective breeding. If the idea is to make a massive powerful fish, why would we breed somethign without a tail? Also funny that these are available in the USA... yet you cant find an A grade flowerhorn in an LFS to save your ass, which makes me believe that most of these were bred here. Others were bred in malaysia yes, but no one buys those things except people who dont know any better. Serious flowerhorn breeders would never mutate their fish.

If you think that trying to cross breed something to create a beutiful fish to be kept in a glass cage for the rest of the life is some huge discrace to nature then maybe you should take a look around. Man destorys nature by existing. Yes we are a horrible plague, stop acting like you are not a parasite like everyone else.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Actually a good day, always feels good to vent in the name of nature!
I actually can appreciate some selective breeding to a point, but there
will always be goofballs that count on novelty for $$$ and don't consider
treating fish humanely as an option or concern.

I also felt those good points just wanting to jump out! Thanks!


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I like rday's vigilance against fish mistreatment. Poseidon x's interest in FH is cool, however, because he favors a healthy product (albeit unnatural) and I would think looks down upon wild release of culls and severe deformities.

I also think the selective breeding aspect is interesting when you study the genetics behind it. I've even considered getting a flowerhorn but with the dozens of tanks I have I just can't see them jumping priority over any other fish I have or am thinking of having.


















> Man destorys nature by existing. Yes we are a horrible plague, stop acting like you are not a parasite like everyone else.


whoa

I don't think you're a parasite rday














. The only mention of destroying nature here is the release of culls. In all actuality, captive strains (hybrid or not) reduce pressure on collecting of wild fish. Example: if everyone stopped wanting asian aros and got into FH, the issue over imports/extinction/etc. of those aros is over. Interesting thing for us purists to chew on, eh?


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## Lahot (May 20, 2003)

how the hell is this not like what has been done to canines over the years? Dogs were bred for particular traits over years and years. And now you have people letting dobermans and border collies or rottweilers and labradors.

Breeding dogs for different traits is no different than breeding serverums and red devils for a parrot. It's a different looking fish from the original two species.

You started down a good path with the tail-less fish, but bashing other hybrids and their owners is another story.


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## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

"Flowerhorn oweners and breeders : Parrot fish oweners (but not breeders!) "Assorted" african breeders and sellers:" oops you forgot to menchon E-bulldogs as most of them would die without C-sections at birth.

these really are blanket statments that are impossable to take seriously. do you acctually think you are going to edjucate anyone? If you truely have such strong fealings about this subject, why not do them justice by acting intelogently and showing some common courtesy......

EDIT: Damnit I can't spell particularly when I'm adjitated.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

acestro said:


> They still wild catch bosemani's? Damn,












I agree with much of what acestro said, hybrids are fine with me as long as they are not deformed so it affects their lives, also they shouldn't be released as they are not really part of the natural world.

painted fish however in my eyes is always wrong


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## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

"painted fish however in my eyes is always wrong"

I aggree Innes...can't see anything right about that.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Black-Phoenix said:


> "painted fish however in my eyes is always wrong"
> 
> I aggree Innes...can't see anything right about that.


 They are still a pretty fish


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## Kory (Jun 5, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> Black-Phoenix said:
> 
> 
> > "painted fish however in my eyes is always wrong"
> ...


 yeah for a while till the dye fades away. Having a pretty fish for a year or so that is unhealthy, in my eyes is just not worth it.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Kory said:


> Ms_Nattereri said:
> 
> 
> > Black-Phoenix said:
> ...


 I agree.


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> Black-Phoenix said:
> 
> 
> > "painted fish however in my eyes is always wrong"
> ...


 well glass fish and albino fish are some of the uglyest fish going, and they don't look much better when they glow, I think a neon is much nicer, and more colourful


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Why dont you tell us how you really feel p45....LOL


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

my self-restraint is impeccable


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

i hope no one has any hard feelings over this thread :rasp:









I just got in my new Pearls of the Orient Flowerhorn... this thing is beutiful, and i would not think so if there was some kind of deformity on it. The shape is precisely what a super high quality trimac would look like. Super thick body hump at 4 inches 75% solid eye blinding red with honeycomb plums all the way to the eye socket.... plus the coveted cobweb lycheehead resembling a polmagranite sp.

Although its a hybrid, those crosses occured some 7 years ago. Since then it took 30+ generations of strict selective breeding to create something like this. Ill take a nice pure fish over something deformed or an unperfect hybrid anyday. I demand perfection with all my fish though whether its pure or hybrid.


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## rday (Mar 10, 2003)

that was much more of a poorly thought out rant than im used to doing, but seeing those tailless freaks really pissed me off. i still stand by the invalidity of dogs vs. hybrids comparison, as they are just simply not the same thing, though a least it was an effort at a point, much unlike p45's comments that had an absolute lack of worth. what is it that you would like me to learn? if it's not to make gross generalizations when upset about something, lesson learned

as for the other comments, such as poisidon, i don't really mean to be a hybrid hater. and the whole assorted africans, parrots, etc. was just the pissed-off and revoltedness talking. i personally dont like hybrids, but there is no moral or ethical problems with their responsible breeding and keeping, as i'm sure anyone involved with a fish someone would pay thousands of dollars for would do.

in summary, at the end of the day, you can have your hybrids, i'll have my run of the mill fish and we'll all be happy. just don't breed them to be mutants or inject them with dye


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

I think the problem was the range of topics covered (expanded and contracted: mutants, hybrids, injection, dogs...).

But still came out to a good discussion. Maybe a more specific approach would be more appropriate (or maybe that would be more boring).


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## Innes (Jan 13, 2003)

acestro said:


> I think the problem was the range of topics covered (expanded and contracted: mutants, hybrids, injection, dogs...).
> 
> But still came out to a good discussion. Maybe a more specific approach would be more appropriate (or maybe that would be more boring).:laugh:










I can shift this topic into the science forum is required


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

rday.. im with you on the anti-tailess thing... its sick, you had every right to be shocked, annoyed, and pissed at the people making them!

Not everyone will see a difference, but i see a big difference in creating an fish that is completely funcitioning and lives along and happy life, and a purposely mutated freak who lives in pain.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Come on crazyKlown, read rday's post 5 posts up where he explained himself.

And let it be known that many parrot cichlids are injected ...*shudder*. 
So many magnificent cichlids..... homeless.....


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## piranhasaurus (Feb 12, 2003)

Before you start running your mouth, know what you're talking about. Those fish aren't born deformed. What that particular breeder did was cut off the tail when the fish is very young. When it healed, it's suppose to look like a heart. Blame that particular breeder, but don't blame everyone else.


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

im pretty sure those a born like that.


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## Black-Phoenix (Oct 21, 2003)

I have read it both ways myself.....I dunno which it is.....although I'm shure its very likely both


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## Kory (Jun 5, 2003)

piranhasaurus said:


> Before you start running your mouth, know what you're talking about. Those fish aren't born deformed. What that particular breeder did was cut off the tail when the fish is very young. When it healed, it's suppose to look like a heart. Blame that particular breeder, but don't blame everyone else.


 man thats fucked up if they cut off there tails. Who the hell would want one of those ugly things.


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

i think there was just some misunderstanding.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Moderating on this site is no easy task...obviously Innes felt it was unnecesary to to have excessive language in that post. You can express your opinions using other descriptive adjectives besides the ones that were in current use. Its an informative forum...not a place where you can shoot the breeze every which way.


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

rday said:


> dog are all Canis familiaris, not crossbreeds of that with some other species of animal. come back when you have something valid to say.


 Actually, Dogs are classified as _Canis domesticus_, direct descendants of the gray wolf, _Canis lucius_. They are not crossbreeds in the common sense as applied to the "crossbreeding" of fishes, rather, they are linebreeds that have been selectively bred to exhibit specific mutations for specific purposes.

The reason that "common" types of dogs (i.e., pugs, bulldogs, shepards, rotts, etc..) are classified as _C. domesticus_ is because their linebreeding has resulted in severe mutations that breed true, however, that is where things get nutty. In that sense, they should then be considered new species but Zoologists refuse to do so.

Just my 2-cents is all!!


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

B. Scott said:


> rather, they are linebreeds that have been selectively bred to exhibit specific mutations for specific purposes.


 But this is the exact type of breeding (linebreeding, as you refer to it) that goes on with flowerhorns now, as we speak. There are different 'types/breeds' of FH being selectively bred for certain characteristics just as there are dogs. There are 'Blue Dragons', 'Golden Monkeys', 'Pearls of the Orient', etc etc, each classification having a certain set of characteristics that distinguishes it from the others.


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> But this is the exact type of breeding (linebreeding, as you refer to it) that goes on with flowerhorns now, as we speak. There are different 'types/breeds' of FH being selectively bred for certain characteristics just as there are dogs. There are 'Blue Dragons', 'Golden Monkeys', 'Pearls of the Orient', etc etc, each classification having a certain set of characteristics that distinguishes it from the others.


 OK, I agree with you but I think their "specific jobs" are actually "specific colors, sizes of nuchal humps etc.."

Agree?


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## Typhoon4U2NV (Oct 26, 2003)

i know its







but i think that the ocean sunfish looks hella sweet!


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

now,now..lets play nice.i have edit some of the comments out.i know alot of us have different views and opinions on fish..so please respect them..

if you should disagree with them,either do it an adult manner or please take it over pm...


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## Lahot (May 20, 2003)

B. Scott said:


> piranha45 said:
> 
> 
> > But this is the exact type of breeding (linebreeding, as you refer to it) that goes on with flowerhorns now, as we speak. There are different 'types/breeds' of FH being selectively bred for certain characteristics just as there are dogs. There are 'Blue Dragons', 'Golden Monkeys', 'Pearls of the Orient', etc etc, each classification having a certain set of characteristics that distinguishes it from the others.
> ...


and that was my original point, breeding a canine to make it a better working dog (for hunting, colder climates, size, etc) is the same as breeding particular fish in hopes that the offspring will have the characteristics that you desire.

Breeding 2 black angels together in hopes of having fry that are blacker than their parents is the same idea as breeding 2 small dobermans to finally create a miniature doberman.

Flowerhorn breeders mainly only keep the top so many % of their fry and only sell males so that people cannot try to breed their own flowerhorns thus keeping their particular strain of FH pure. In fact they probably do a better job of it than people who think they are buying other 'true' fish from the store. Not often will you find a true Midas, Red Devil, etc at the store unless they buy from a reputable breeder such as Rapps, and most stores don't.

Parrot breeders do their best to sterilize their fish before they are shipped so that people aren't breeding them and creating even wackier fish.

ps...you suck Raffy







j/k


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Lahot said:


> ps...you suck Raffy :rasp: j/k


 Hey thats Rafikee to you Weiner-boy


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## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

I don't care if he explained himself you shouldn't start bashing people and what they like.....but oh well.

I was watching a Mako documentary like 5 hours ago and a Sunnyfish came in

Man those things are so UGLY. Hehehe


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

I should mention that the majority of Kamfas are not sterile as to prevent people from breeding them.

During the peak of the flowerhorn crazy a dozen or so flowerhorn shops opened up in singapore alone. These places were mobed and breeders could not keep up with demand so many of them decided to just sell everyone all the fry they were getting from their top fish at a cost that was somewhere between $150-300. Although these fry were higher quality then the lfs flowerhorn in the usa, it was still a complete rip off. People got ripped. The breeders and stores that remain were the ones who were commited to a high degree of ethics and satisfying their customers. Many people realized how much work these fish were and forgot to take care of them. Its really a strange thing for us here to even explain this phenomon because you never see mobs of people running to lfs stores in the usa. In malaysia fish keeping is very popular

The hobby is proceeding at a much better pace now and washing away the dirt left by many at the height of popularity. The goal of a domesticated, fun to play with house pet still remains.


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## X-D-X (Jul 3, 2003)

a parrot to my understanding is a mix of a severum and a midas cichlid!!


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## Poseidon X (Jan 31, 2003)

There is a bunch of different types of parrots. There are small jelly bean parots that are purely convict or severum.. then there is the big king kong parots which are strictly midas. All cichlids have the ability to develope this same jaw deformity. I have seen a pure jag with a parot face. King kong parots get big and there the only type i would ever think about keeping. They actually look pretty healthy.


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