# Need some Plant Advice...



## -={Nexus}=- (Nov 23, 2004)

so here is my 10 gallon set up,

i took the 20 watt fluorescent light from my 29 gallon piranha tank and just have it sitting on top of this ten gallon as the plants weren't doing soo well in the 29 gallon.

in this tank i have for plants:
3 of these, some type of sword









and one of these, another sword









for fish i have:
1 X 3 inch pleco
2 X 1.5 inch clown loaches
3 X female guppies
2 X male guppies
2 X zebra fish

my problems:
1.) as you can see in this photo:









there is a large amount of algae build up on the leaves of the growing plant, i find this seems to cap the plants growth at the size it's at. the leaves will get so big, then get covered in algae and turn to crap. How do i control this? there is also marginal algae on the glass walls of the tank. I bought the pleco expecting him to take care of the glass algae but he doens't seem to be doing the job.
i also have some huge snails, but am afraid to put them in the tank because last time i did that, they ate the plants completely. and seriously.. they're hugggge have a look:

















2.) my second problem is with the set of 3 sword plants. i salvaged them from the pet store who was clearing them out due to their sickly nature. im' not sure if this is just the remnants of their sickliness, but all the taller leaves seem to be deteriorating. The good thing is, new leaves are sprouting out and growing at the bases, but what is causing this deterioriation, there seems to be signs that it is starting on the young leaves too. Is my plant sick? or are one of my fish eating it?










and i should mention, the rest of the plants in there are fake. sorry for that last crap photo, don't feel like retaking,

thnx in advance,

Daniel


----------



## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Welp all I can say is.. u have 20w over a 10g..

Are you feeding the plants anything? are you doing algea maintenance at all? LMK, and I will get back to you on what you can do


----------



## -={Nexus}=- (Nov 23, 2004)

for algae maintenance, i've just been scrubbing the walls,

i tried scrubbing the leaves with my thumb but had no success with that.

i got the average plant-gro stuff from the LFS and am applying 1 dosage of that per week like the bottle directed.

should i be having more light in there?


----------



## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

-={Nexus}=- said:


> for algae maintenance, i've just been scrubbing the walls,
> 
> i tried scrubbing the leaves with my thumb but had no success with that.
> 
> ...


ya, scrubbing the walls of the tank is good.. Most likely dust algea there.. but on your leaves, that looks like BBA to me..

All I can say is that, in my low light 75g tank, I have 2 amazon swords. They don't have algea, but they are not growing fast at all.

That being said, I also have tons of fast growing plants in there, to eat up the nutrients in the water column faster.. (I also dose more kinds of nutrients than you)

this strategy, dosing a well balanced food supply for the plants, and having lots of fast growers in there, out competes the algea if done properly.

I wouldn't say that it is your light.. although amazon swords love more light than what we are giving our plants.. They can survive.. I would say that it is a lack of faster growing plants, and lack of plant food..

My suggestion would be.. Get a few bunches of fast growers in there.. anacharis, water sprite, hornwart, Rotala rotundafolia, some vals.. something like those.. there are lots of fast growers.. get some of these in there.. then cut off all the very worst leaves on your plant that are infected with algea.. ..leave at least 3 nice leaves on the plant

Keep the tank with 10-25ppm nitrAtes at all times.. .5-2ppm phosphates all the time.. (don't go over those values) 
Dose flourish comprehensive, or Tropica Master Grow as directed on bottle. Iron, and potassium will be a very nice touch on top of those ferts..

Then, if you still have algea problems, I would say get some flourish excell, and follow the directions on the bottle.

If you do this, i guarantee you will have much healthier plants.. if you don't over, or under dose the ferts
also, keep up on any algea that you see developing in the tank.. don't just hit it a little to break it up some.. Attack it with extreme prejudice, as if it is the enemy of your tank!


----------



## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

Yes, DiPpY eGgS gave a lot of good advice.
I have also found that Swords do like root fertilization (some tablets or balls near or just beneath the roots). But be sure never to disturb the fine roots. Swords hate it. The growth rate depends on the following: light intensity, root fertilization, healthy leaves.
The latter means that Swords do not like algae on their leaves. You have incipient or beginning problem of Black Beard Algae (Audouinella). That red algae is very tough and really a pain the a.. So remove the infected leaves and also clean rocks, wood and everything where you see that growth (dark black-green brushes).

Regards,


----------



## -={Nexus}=- (Nov 23, 2004)

cool. thnx guys,

i'm gonna go buy some fast growers at the LFS soon here and will get working on the glass algae, will get some more pics up when i have done some work .

thnx again for the help,

Daniel


----------



## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

keep us posted!!

I would love to see you get this tank off the ground.. hang in there!


----------



## -={Nexus}=- (Nov 23, 2004)

update:

seems like the algae is only limited to half of the tank where the light sits. So i'm guessing there's wayy too many nutrients in the tank, and the added light on the front half the tank where my plants are is sufficient enough for growth....

going to LFS today, will buy a phosphate kit, some fast growers, and some iron?

pics later tonight

woot

i'm pumped


----------



## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

U need way more than just iron.. read my long post where I adress that again..

I would say you have a lack of nutrients, and I say that with confidence

I would remove the fake plants, and replace them with live, fast growers.. and maybe a few that I just liked


----------



## -={Nexus}=- (Nov 23, 2004)

alright, so here's what i got:

i got two plants for 9 bucks each (potted ones) ... 
MAN plants are pricey! 
and i'm a 4 yr uni student so money is tight. but i went as "all-out" as i could afford today.

here's the supposed fast grower.. no idea what it is called. recommended by LFS guy









bought 1 phostphate kit which was on sale 50% off woot.










some plant gro









and a fat c02 bubbler









i found some online recipies for making your own c02 fermenting mix for it.. with yeast and water.
might try that to save some more bucks.

while on the topic of CO2. one question:
woudl it be counterintuitive to put the c02 bubbler in plus put in the O2 bubble stone that i've always had in there? also is there any chance the c02 could be released too quickly and suffocate my fish? i'm completely inexperienced with CO2. don't even know if what i bought is a good idea or not, but i'm counting on you folk (dippy especially







) for some advice.

also bought one of these:









can't remember what it was called. It starts with an 'o' and it has a bottom feeder style mouth and apparently is very good for eating algae from the leaves of the plants

so i did the whole bleaching-op on the decor and fake plants









dont' worry, i didn't bleach the filter

i scrubbed the hell out of the tank
trimmed those yucky plants down till they had almost nothing left (3 good leaves approx)
and did some refurbishing

here is the final product:









so that big sword plant i bought had some runners coming off of it. i cut those off and planted them elsewhere in the tank..(not sure if that was the right thing to do or not... but they had roots coming off them plus it was very very long and wouldn't fit in the tank. if you look closely, there's another runner at the back.. i thought i'd spare that one in case i did the wrong thing.)

i'll do a phosphate check tomorrow and see what we're at.

lemme know if there's anything i should change.

one thing i wasn't sure about, was that the light i have kinda sits over the front half of the tank. how bad will that be for the plant at the back of the tank. 
maybe might need to drop more money on this bitch? already spent close to 80 CAN

and oh btw, i haven't added the CO2 thing. gonna wait for some feedback before i open it.

regards,

Daniel

ah yes, here is that recipe i found on another board regarding the Homemade Co2 mix:

As for your home recipe for co2.....try this: 
Mix 3/4 cup sugar, 6 cups water and a big pinch of yeast.(about a 5ml spoonful) 
This will provide co2 for at least 10 to 14 days... 
BEWARE...make sure your pressure cylinder is NOT clogged at the outlet,and is preferably pressure vented. If it gets clogged up and pressure builds up it will seriously re decorate overy wall in the room with a nasty brown..well.. its just not nice.


----------



## -={Nexus}=- (Nov 23, 2004)

edit: found more info,

the stabilizer package is just sodium bicarb and isn't that just baking soda? .......shawinnnng!

just need the okay from dipps and i'll have those plants growin in no time


----------



## -={Nexus}=- (Nov 23, 2004)

damnit, i'm too impatient,

i did some more landscaping, maxmimed the leaf area under the lights, added some wood, and set up the CO2 system

the bubbles are almost about to start coming out. seem slike a decent cheap system,










oh and here's a close up of that fish i bought. anyone identify it? Starts with the letter 'O'


----------



## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

cool, the fish is an ottocinclus cat.. excellent algea eater.. nice pick up!

The plant you bought is a fast grower. It is water sprite.

I personally would have gotten the flourish excell instead of the CO2 fizz thinggy, but that is probably because I have never tried it..









Also, I would have gotten some nitrate(10-25ppm), phosphate(.5-2ppm), and potassium(20ppm).. I am not too sure about that plant-gro stuff.. I would have gotten flourish comprehensive, and iron..

Where do you live.. I have a heart for people in college that are trying hard to have a nice little planted tank.. I will send you a grab bag of some plants, because ...u need to fill that thing up lol (and maybe some PMDD that I have lying around)

Oh, and get the sword out of the pot.. lol it will help it along.. do it carefully, and just plant it like anything else.

Ooops, I forgot to tell ya.. the CO2 thing would be mostly wasted if you have O2 bubblers in the tank..

It is like a glass of Pepsi.. shake it up a little, and all the CO2 fizzes out.. gets flat..

Your tank will have more than enough O2 with a slow roll on top of the tank


----------



## -={Nexus}=- (Nov 23, 2004)

awesome,

yah i love that fish. he went straight to work on the leaves ... checking all of them for algae. I call him "my little asian worker". expecting some little railroad tracks to appear soon. racism = nullified by the fact that i'm half asian









yah i will do the sword right now.. the water sprite is also in the pot, shoudl i take that out as well?

i've hooked up the air pump to a second timer so that when the light goes off at 10, the air pump will go over night till the lights turn back on just to make sure there's enough O2 in the tank. for the first little while the C02 thing is working.

if this Co2 system works well, i'm gonna write a little guide on how to use it for others. with a little DIY home recipe. will keep you all updated.

Dipps,

i'm up in Canada, i appreciate the offer, i feel bad accepting handouts though. only if you have a major excess! whatever you have that you're not needing i'd really love. i'll pay for shipping.

alright, gonna go start on that sword.

Daniel


----------



## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

-={Nexus}=- said:


> awesome,
> 
> yah i love that fish. he went straight to work on the leaves ... checking all of them for algae. I call him "my little asian worker". expecting some little railroad tracks to appear soon. racism = nullified by the fact that i'm half asian
> 
> ...


sorry, but Ottocinclus cats are from the Amazon..









and I am not the type to get upset enough to flame, over someone calling another a bad name or something... it simply happens, and I don't want to crap on another person who wishes to use language they feel comfy with.. lol ..u can call me a half breed italio/germanic mutt american if you wish









Ya, take the water sprite out as well, it will help the roots grow easier..

That idea is ok, plants stop using CO2 after lights out, and start using O2 then.

Oh, u in Canada.. It will cost more than the plants are worth to ship there, not to mention the fact that they might not make it there in the first place.. ask James, aka spreerider.. he never got the plants he bought off of me.. shipping was $17.00 too!


----------



## -={Nexus}=- (Nov 23, 2004)

Hey Hey,

so the plants are nice and planted firmly now, removed the pots and sponge (man that stuff is hard to get out from the roots... i didnt' get it all out for fear of cutting the root mass in half)

the C02 bubbler is finally working. i have to admit. it's very satisfying watching the bubbles run up the little plastic track. *grin*

dippy i had one more question though,

the first day i planted them (i.e. the day i brought them back), i was able to see lots of O2 bubbles on the amazon, and was even able to see small streams of bubbles from the water sprite. I have never ever seen that happen before on any of my plants.

now (day2) there doesn't appear to be any O2 bubbles. 
i just wanted to run by the components of this PLant-Gro by you to see if it truly does contain sufficient nutrients for growth and photosynthesis

total nitrogen = 0.15%
Iron (chelated) = 0.26%
manganese (chelated and soluble)= 0.05%
zinc (chelated) = 0.003%
Boron = 0.0005%
Copper = 0.0005%
Molybdate = 0.0007%

i know you had said previously

"Keep the tank with 10-25ppm nitrAtes at all times.. .5-2ppm phosphates all the time.. (don't go over those values) 
Dose flourish comprehensive, or Tropica Master Grow as directed on bottle. Iron, and potassium will be a very nice touch on top of those ferts.. 
Then, if you still have algea problems, I would say get some flourish excell, and follow the directions on the bottle."

how necessary are the phosphates. i friggin didn't check that that was included in the plant-gro (Argh) and i bought a phosphate kit (doh). so i probably won't have any phosphates in there at all

and.....

there is no potassium in the mix. i'm guessing the nitrogen in Plant-gro is in the form of nitrates?

i looked for flourish products while at the store but didn't find any. so that was why i went with this.
i also had no luck finding any flourish products on ebay or that tropica master grow stuff

lemme know,

thnx buddy


----------



## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

What were your phosphate readings?


----------



## PiranhaStein (Dec 30, 2005)

Nice tank and setup, I'm still trying to figure if I should make a run at heavy planting while still using a 29gallon or should i wait for the 125. I have 1 potted amazon sword now, and I wish I had more. Just about to upgrade my light from big al's no shipping sale. it's a 24" and there are a lot of choices.

Trying to plant a tank is a little tougher on a college budget, I signed up on a plant forum, just have to post a bunch to start trading.

What do you think about a background, i know it's a little redundant but an jungle background or something would look nice on your setup.


----------



## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

-={Nexus}=- said:


> Hey Hey,
> 
> so the plants are nice and planted firmly now, removed the pots and sponge (man that stuff is hard to get out from the roots... i didnt' get it all out for fear of cutting the root mass in half)
> 
> ...


well phosphates are so necissary that if it is not present in small doses, your plants will not take in some nutrients well. that makes the plants weak, making them vounerable to algea infestation.
.5-2ppm works great

ya nitrogen is a form of nitrates, exactly.

You can get flourish products and tropica master grow from bigalsonline, and flourish products at drfostersmith.com

i have to go to bed lol if i missed something, i will help later!


----------



## -={Nexus}=- (Nov 23, 2004)

thnx for the comments all,

PiranhaStein,
yah i decided to skip on the background simply because my tank is close to the window of my shoddy college apartment living room. This allows for more natural sunlight to save my plants. thnx for the praise on the tank though

husky_jim,
haven't done a phosphate reading yet..

and some good news.

my dad came to visit last weekend (start of our reading week) and gave me a lift to big als. I picked up one bottle of FLOURISH COMPREHENSIVE!!....cost about 18 bucks Canadian. i was looking at the other products they had to offer.. like the iron supplements and phosphorus like you suggested dips.. but man they're expensive.. they tack on an extra 17 bucks per element.. a little out of my price range.. so i just stuck with the comprehensive which i'm hoping will be good enough.

the chick at big al's also swore by that flourish stuff so i'm assuming it's pretty good. have to wait and see... visitn parents for this week but when i get back will begin dosing twice a day as recomenedded with the stuff.. .i can't WAIT!
also, when i was telling her about my tank, she mentioned somethign about how water sprite is one of the hardest plants to grow?!

ah?!

can anyone else confirm this ?

cheers,
Daniel


----------



## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

umm, if we are talking about the same plant, water sprite is pretty easy. Once it gets going, it tries to take over the whole tank!

well, you can always get the small bottles of phosphates(phosphorous) they are cheaper, and you dont need much of it.. You can also get a bottle of fleet enima at any drug store.. it is pure phosphate. it doesn't take much, just as you dose a little each week.

the iron you can skip, because it is in the comprehensive.. but in my tanks, it really seems to help the plants stay a deep green.


----------



## -={Nexus}=- (Nov 23, 2004)

cool dips, i'll go grab that phosphate stuff from the drug store tomorrow,

from looking it up a little further, it seems the appropriate dose of fleet enima is

"about a drop per 5 gallons is the 1 ppm mark that you shouldn't go over with that nutrient."

was also wondering if there is some other "third party" solution to potassium dosing in the tank

and finally.

i was a little concerned about my ottocinclus. 
what is their staple diet consist of? i'm just concerned about what he will eat if the leaf algae runs out in my tank. will it eat the algae tabs i toss in for the pleco every two days.

thnx,
going back home to my university home tomorrow.. ouuuuuuu 
i'm stoked!!!


----------



## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

-={Nexus}=- said:


> cool dips, i'll go grab that phosphate stuff from the drug store tomorrow,
> 
> from looking it up a little further, it seems the appropriate dose of fleet enima is
> 
> ...


that is great you are going to add some phosphates.. it is good to have it. You just have to find out how often to dose it. -most likely once, 2ce a week (2wpg?)

The only cheap solution to fertilizer is www.gregwatson.com -everything you want, cheap.. but you have to buy it in bulk.. it is worth it to me, I have 3 planted tanks that I plan on having for as long as I can

the otto's love spirulina pellets, and any sinking catfish food will work. also any frozen stuff like bloodworm and daphnea can be given as a treat.

But I only feed them once a week or so.


----------

