# Algae and Plants in a Pygo tank



## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

I start a new thread on this topic because I have had interesting feedback on my thoughts about algae prevention in Aquarium.

*So this is the backround:*
I have a 150 gallon tank with 4 8" Pygos in there.
I also have plants: 4 Echinodorus bleheri, numerous Vallisneria gigantea, some Cryptocoryne wendtii "tropica" and one Nymphea lotus.
For filtration I have one Eheim Pro III: 13.5 litres (3.6 g) bio media capacity / 1.700 litres (450 g) per hour circulation.
Everyone knows the feeding habits of Pygos: If I put a whole fish in there, it is torn and eaten within seconds and millions of small pieces of meat and scales a scattered everywhere. So I prefer to feed them with chunks of fish fillet or with shrimps.
Anyway, the food they get and the amount of food they digest, produce quite an amount of waste into the water (proteins, fat, urea, NH4/NH3, PO4 ...).
This can only be dealt with a good bio filter (I have one) that takes care of NH4/NH3 and regular water changes to take care of overabundance of nutrients (no amount of plants can possibly do this alone): mainly nitrates and phosphates.

*Bio filter:*
Well with my EHEIM water stays clear and according to the regular water tests, NH4/NH3 and NO2 are at zero level, so no problem there.

*Water changes:*
I do water changes of about 20 % (30 g) per week. Sometimes I do them 5 times, sometimes 3 times per week, but total amount is about 30 g / week.
This way I have managed to keep NO3 levels at about 20-30 mg/l (ppm).
The problem here is that if I change more water per week, it will have a negative impact on the water quality (pH, NH3).
You see the parameters of my tap water are:
- pH from waterworks 8.6 and at end users 8.0-8.5.
- GH 3.0 dH
- KH 1.8 dH
- NH3 23 ppm (mg/l) from waterworks.

*Algae:*
I have had issues with algae. The good thing is: not anymore.
I used to have a pH 7.6 - 8.0, I also used fluorescent bulbs of 6.500 Kelvin (daylight) emitting strong yellow-green light.
The most irritating algae were Cyanophyta (blue green bacteria) and Green algae: hair algae (Spirogyra).

Now that I have changed my light to aquatic fluoralux lights of 10.000 Kelvin, that emits very little yellow-green light and that I have managed to lower pH to about 6.5 with peat extracts (the KH of my tap water is quite low, thanks for that), the Cyanophyta ang green algae are gone.
Occasionally if the nitrates gets higher than 50 mg/l (ppm), I notice Rhodophyta (red algae) appearing. This is mostly brush algae (Audouinella). But lowering NO3 will slow it down.

*Plants:*
I admit that my plants do not grow super fast. But they do not suffer either. It is just not an easy task to have a good plant growth in a Pygo tank.

*Some remarks:*
I do not use chemical water additives. So I do not regulate pH, I do not buffer with bicarbonates, I do not harden water with Ca or Mg. I do not add CO2.
One possibility could perhaps be to experiment with an automatic pH regulator, which would use a CO2 diffusing system.
Of course some of the water effects are managed with peat extracts. That will lower pH as it contains humic acids. They take bicarbonates down a bit too.

Because keeping large Pygos always means putting a heavy nutrient load into the water, I do not talk about starving my plants or starving the algae. The fact that you have algae in a tank is due to the fact that you have nutrients for them. Some algea need strong light (green algae), but some don't (red algae). All algae need phosphates and nitrates. In fact these are the nutrients that in natural water system cause eutrophication with algae blooming. Most of the algae grow well in slightly basic water (pH 7.5 - 8.0).

Regards,

BTW here is pic of my tank:
View attachment 83447


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

Nice presentation of your Tank and Equipment man!This post explains in a few word the importance of water chemistry balance in a planted aquarium.....


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Great tank! Looks nice and clean! Great job with the post/info. Now I see that we run completely different setups.

How much light are you using? How long has those plants been there? I love the tap water, very soft.

The CO2 idea might be a good idea. It will bump up plant growth a bit, or it should. In theory, it should make them healthier all around, but they look fine

I am now trying a heavily planted rhom tank, I am very sick of little fish.. lol this should be a challenge!

I am having some difficulty with my tank right now because I didn't put enough plants in the tank for my setup. A rescue mission is underway


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> How much light are you using? How long has those plants been there? I love the tap water, very soft.


I am using 2 fluorescent bulbs with a silver reflector above each of them.
The wattage is 2 x 36 W, so ity should be upgraded if I turn to CO2 diffuser.

I have had Vallisneria for about 8 months, Cryptos about 4 months, and Swords about 2 months.

Yes, as the tap water is soft and low KH, it is much easier to adjust the pH.

Regards,


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

With presurized CO2, you wouldn't have to upgrade lights, but you can if you wanted to then.

I would like to suggest that if you increase anything, get more plants.. This has been my problem as of lately. It seems that the more light you have, the more nutrients you need, the more CO2 you need, the more plant bio-mass you need.

With your tank with that low of lighting, you would only have to dose nutrients maybe 1x a week. you know that already. My setup, I have to dose every day.


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> I would like to suggest that if you increase anything, get more plants.. This has been my problem as of lately. It seems that the more light you have, the more nutrients you need, the more CO2 you need, the more plant bio-mass you need.


Yes I think so too.
Sometimes it is very hard to find and keep the equilibrum that works well.
As you see, my setup of plants is quite recent.
I hope I can keep at least the swords growing well.
Well time will show.

Regards,


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Yes, that happy medium must be found, as my headache from last night attests.. lol -I should have known better than to put minimal plants in my tank from the beginning. Now I have a ton of plants in there, it is messy though, waiting for what I wanted to achieve with my scape to start growing in.
If you get what you plan on getting, a bit of CO2, and a bit more light, your swords will take off for sure. I love the look of the swords leaves submersed. for some reason, the lfs usually sells emersed swords. they grow very slowly with low light, eh?

I am going to do a low light 75g with just crypts and a sword or 2 for my new sanchezi








It will be easier than a shoal to take care of, so I'm hoping it works out well! I have a ton of emersed C wendtii, and C walkeri, & a few other cripts.. + I have a sword I am growing out in my high light setup for the occasion..

I am going to use all the info I have gathered from you, plus from www.aquaticplantcentral.com so that I have a better approach from the very beginning. The tank will be lined to the hilt with low light plants, I can't wait.








The sanchezi will get lost in there!








In my rhoms 75, I am hoping to do a hairgrass lawn with red micro tenellus here and there, with a background of E. vivipara, with C parva, C petchii, and other crypts too lol, and the left corner with L. repens-rubin, and a Nymphaea micrantha for shade. I HAD it all scaped in my mind, but after this.. it has become more challenging.. LOL 
Things are definately looking up now though..


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> I love the look of the swords leaves submersed. for some reason, the lfs usually sells emersed swords. they grow very slowly with low light, eh?


Yes this is familiar for me too.

In Finland all local stores sell imported Swords that are grown emersed with obviously quite high light. Usually they are Echinodorus bleheri, sometimes also argentinensis or x barthii.
All these have long stemmed, round leaves. When submerged they grow very broad, thinner leaves with short stems. But it is true that the growth rate decreases till the plants have adapted to lower light and living under the water.

Before, when I used white daylight fluorescent bulbs (6.500 K), the Swords, that had slowed down their growth a bit became suffocated by green algae.

I hope you have success with your S. sanchezi in a well planted tank.

Regards,


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

harry! this is really helpful information on a low light non-CO2 tank. this guy is good! Please read this and post comments.. lets discuss!
http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=395


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

bro, that article is awesome! I am going to try it most certainly! I am very happy to have stumbled upon that thread! it is a definate must read for all plant growers on here.. 
most people with piranhas that want plants would be much better off from reading that! 
I will now be changing my reccomondations for the low light guys! I can't wait until I get mine going! 
Substrate, I am going with a small layer of Canadian sphagnum peat moss, then a bit of soilmaster select 'charcoal' (color) then about a quart of mulm (filter water with fishy poo) then the rest of the soilmaster.
For lights I will use 2 2x40w shop lights with T12's over the 75. I'm not goint to sell any of my emersed crypts anymore, so I can plant VERY DENSE from the start.
This setup requires top off water ONLY! the only reason you would have to do water changes is after you change your scape, or if things get out of whack too badly, after watching the problem carefully over a 2-3 week period.
I know most would be like, I got P's, I have to do water changes! Not if you don't overstock your tank, and plant very heavily from the get go. Dosing would be 1ce a week, growth would be very slow, but man, it will be super nice to successfully setup and run a very low maintenance P tank!
1 sanchezi in a 75 would be a bit understocked, but I can always add a little nitrate + phosphate.








again, I can't wait.. Get on that article! You should give it a try! these guys are on top of the planted aquarium world right now.. I am on this soon..


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> harry! this is really helpful information on a low light non-CO2 tank. this guy is good! Please read this and post comments.. lets discuss!
> http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=395


Hi there,
That is an interesting article.
It would be helpful, though, to get some more info on the following argument in that article:

_We can add KNO3 and KH2PO4 and show that in a non CO2 tank, excess PO4, NO3 (and Fe) do not cause algae blooms. We can add NH4 and induce a bloom just like a CO2 enriched tank._

So Tom adds potassium nitrate and potassium dihydrogen phosphate in order to fertilize water with nitrates and phosphates.
1) He says this does not cause algae bloom.
2) He also says that ammonium in the water will cause algae bloom.

1) Well there is something else behind his results. He does not tell it or he does not know.
We must bear in mind that the most important and relevant factor in eutrophication of water systems in nature is the addition of NO3 and PO4 into water (usually via waste water). This will always cause severe algae bloom and death of oligotrophic plants.

2) Fishes produce urea (NH2)2CO, which means ammonia (NH3) in the water, not ammonium salts. Ammonia (NH3) is in the form of ammonium (NH4) only if the water is acid (the reaction of ammonia, NH3, with acids or hydronium ion, H3O). In basic waters it is in the form of ammonium hydroxide (NH4OH). I do not have info on the argument that algae could use more efficiently ammonium than nitrate. This depends on the pH as the degree to which ammonia forms the ammonium ion depends on the pH. I have found that quite many algae do not even like acidous environment.

Anyway, Toms test is done in his article without fishes. This is of course in order to keep track of ammonia, nitrates and phosphates.

Here we are closer to the helpful solution i have been looking for.

I do not think it is difficult to have a well planted tank with perhaps only a small amount of soem decorative fishes. They do not produce urea so much. So obviosly there is no algae problem.
Not at least in the sense of algae problem in a Pygocentrus tank, where there are plenty of urea in the water (and changed into nitrates by biofilter). The main overfertilization or eutrophication does not come from leftovers (they can be easily dealt with careful feeding and siphoning); it comes from Pygos eating and producing urea. This way water changes cannot be overlooked. You may help this by using zeolite in your filter to grow bacteria, which use up nitrates and change it to nitrogen gas (N2). Or use products like EasyBalance. In a Pygo tank their effect, I think, can only be marginal.

But you, 'DiPpY eGgS', have one sanchezi and a lot of plants. That might succeed. So it is very interesting to hear from that regularly.

BTW. Have you also noticed that Swords that have been grown emersed in a plastic pots when planted submerged, produce different kind of leaves. And when they began to root in gravel, they produce smaller leaves for some time before they can recover.

Regards,


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Hi Harry

I appreciate your comments on the article. As far as algea comming from phosphates in your water.. I just did a phosphate test on my 10g that has 3.6wpg power compact lighting w/reflector, and pressurized CO2, and it said I had 5ppm phosphate. 
As this is too high, (.5 to 2.0 target) I do not have an algea bloom in the tank. In fact, I have some seriously delicate plants in the aquarium such as Ludwigia inclinata var verticillata 'Cuba,' and Elatine triandra, that are doing very well. I will just not dose Phosphate until I get a reading of 1.0 or .5. 
The nitrates are about 20-30ppm. Again, slightly high, but no cause for alarm. I will dose again when I reach 10ppm. This experiment will tell me how much my plants are taking in, so I can adjust my dosing accordingly.
I don't think the article says to 'dump' it in and hope for the best. I think it is talking to the aquarist who knows, and has/had successful planted tanks in the past who knows the targeted ppm of these nutrients. 
I can attest that my last aquarium failure happened due to the bottoming out of nutrients for sure! Certainly, the main problem was the lack of nitrate. I experimented with very low dosing, and ruined the tank. Not to mention my CO2 regulator messed up on me for a few days.
I think that a low light non CO2 tank's plants and a high light pressurized CO2 tank's plants need the exact same thing to thrive. Just with no CO2, and lower light, everything slows way down. With exception to the part on water changes.. The part in the article that talks of the low CO2 enzime that plants make in low CO2 settings is pretty interesting. If this is true, that makes the tank even more appealing.. less work! 
At the same time, there are many factors involved, such as, not overdosing, and underdosing! 
I use a fertilizer calculator when I mix my ferts. I usually mix 1 tablespoon of KNO3 to 250ml water. this gives me approximately 1.08ppm nitrate in 10gal of water.. this calculator calculates the other nutrients as well.

As far as the ammonia issue that our fishes produce, I see your point. The issue is addressed though, by adequate, upkept filtration. As long as we have lots of healthy ammonia eating bacteria in the tank, that settles the issue. The problem with ammonia, is a high amount that the tanks bacteria can't handle.
This is a big one with piranha owners. But most serious piranha keepers know that ammonia is a problem in their tanks, so they get adequate filtration to handle the job.
So, if your fish are producing tons of nitrates, there is no need whatsoever to dose it in your tank.. EVER. the key is to have enough plants in your aquarium to eat up the excess. 
I love the look of plant overkill in the first place!..
And with my 1 sanchezi in the tank, if I overload it with plants I will most likely have to dose nitrates to keep it from bottoming out.

What an awesome balance.. I can't wait to try this.. I


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

"You may help this by using zeolite in your filter to grow bacteria, which use up nitrates and change it to nitrogen gas (N2). Or use products like EasyBalance. In a Pygo tank their effect, I think, can only be marginal."

Harry, if you get more info on that zeolite stuff, please by all means, share! I have no clue what it is!










and about the 'Amazon' swords.. the plants are almost always sold in pots of an emersed setup. the submersed leaves are way more attractive, and yes, I see that it takes quite a bit of time for them to acclimate to the submersed form.


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## Slim (Jan 9, 2005)

I am having a large problem with algea. I have no clue how to get rind of it either. If anyone knows the answers please let me know. I am running 2- 48 inch plant and aquaruim bulbs for a 75 gallon with flora max substarte. Getting algea all over my plants. And im running 4 48 inch bulbs on my 125 gallon tank and I have algea on the glass. Does anyone know what to ddo to get rid of all this.


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> "You may help this by using zeolite in your filter to grow bacteria, which use up nitrates and change it to nitrogen gas (N2). Or use products like EasyBalance. In a Pygo tank their effect, I think, can only be marginal."
> Harry, if you get more info on that zeolite stuff, please by all means, share! I have no clue what it is!


Hi,

Zeolite:
At least Tetra uses that stuff in their Nitrate Minus and EasyBalance products.
I found the following text in their net pages that explains it a bit:

"· NitrateMinus consists of granules that remove nitrate in a natural, biological process. During this
process, micro-organisms slowly decompose the granules of NitrateMinus by using nitrate as their
oxygen source. This way, nitrate is irreversibly removed.
· As nitrate, one of the major nutrients of algae, is removed, algae growth is also reduced.
· NitrateMinus has a stabilizing effect on KH and pH - if used with existing high levels of nitrate or
other products that stabilize carbonate hardness, KH levels may increase."

The actual link is here:

Tetra

Your experiment is very interesting and I hope we can here about it regularly as it proceeds.

Thanks,


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## Gumby (Aug 13, 2004)

I just wanted to say a few things:

Most plants that LFS get are grown emersed for 2 reasons:
1. They're easier to grow emersed
2. They ship much better with emersed form leaves

Also, as far as NH3 causing an algae bloom, I believe that was in reference to Green water (Euglena sp). I seem to remember reading that this algae prospers when NH3 levels are high.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Sounds interesting, thanks for the link!

I haven't set up the low light tank yet, but I am definately going to post about it here.

I have to let my high light setup grow in, and get established before I take the overgrowth out and place it in the low light tank..
I don't want to spend tons of loot on plants!! LOL 
I'll just use my overgrowth!
hopefully my high light Rhom tank doesn't get infested with algea! That is one of the reasons that I changed the photo period in that tank.. 1.6-7wpg for 2.5hrs, then the full 3wpg, then another 1.6wpg for the last 2.5 hrs. Going to see if that helps at all..


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Gumby said:


> I just wanted to say a few things:
> 
> Most plants that LFS get are grown emersed for 2 reasons:
> 1. They're easier to grow emersed
> ...










corect about the algea! and also, about emersed grown plants. they don't have a chance of getting algea either.. yet another reason to grow emersed for sale!


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