# freshwater croc



## boxer (Sep 11, 2003)

i see a baby crocodile for sale. its around 8-12 inches. i was wondering is it hard taking care of this and how fast does this mofo grow? would there be any chance it could co-exist with Ps? i highly doubt it since the water has to be low for land/water and the P's will rip it a new one at this size unless it outgrows them.


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## Kory (Jun 5, 2003)

I wouldnt recommend getting it.

CrocKeeper can tell you why


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

> i see a baby crocodile for sale. its around 8-12 inches. i was wondering is it hard taking care of this and how fast does this mofo grow? would there be any chance it could co-exist with Ps? i highly doubt it since the water has to be low for land/water and the P's will rip it a new one at this size unless it outgrows them.


You started your thread with "fresh-water" croc. That is the vernacular of an Australian species that is fairly rare to US collections.

The animal you have found for sale is in a pet store, I am assuming and is not likely to be _C_. _johnstonii_. If it is a crocodile, then it is probably a Nile Crocodile, although Morelet's have been increasingly showing up in the "pet" trade unfortunately.

They grow fairly consistently if well fed and well cared for. You can expect a minimum of 12 inches a year of growth for the first 5-6 years if diet and conditions are kept correctly. Can you house them with P's?...This is an odd question, you do not just house a crocodilian in a fish tank. They are an amphibious reptile, hauling them selves out of the water to bask frequently. This means that a fish aquarium is not acceptable housing, when full of water and fish. Then there is the potential for injury to the young animal from P's, and injury to the P's from the animal...not a good idea all around.

Aquiring a crocodilian for a captive is not a decision that should be made whimsically. They attain great size, they will outlive you, they become potentially dangerous animals.

First learn what an animal is that you decide to keep, what the exact species is. Then you can adequately educate yourself as to the size it will eventually attain, and the enclosure requirements for such a captive. These are incredible creatures, and can be rewarding captives, but they carry a greater responsibility than most.

Also depending on the species there are many legal issues that arise with crocodilians as captives.

Also please do not assume that you will be able to magically find this animal a zoo to give it to when it out grows you. This does not happen as has been covered before by myself in a previous post.

Bottom line is if you wish to seriously entertain the notion of keeping a crocodilian, there are many things to do first. I am happy to answer questions and point you toward avenues that will help you educate yourself in these matters.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Listen to Crockeeper, I (and the rest of the non-p staff I'm sure) back up everything he just wrote.


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## o snap its eric (Feb 19, 2003)

one thing i dont gret with croc keepers. How the hell do you guys feel safe with one of those suckers when your cleaning the area


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

boxer said:


> i see a baby crocodile for sale. its around 8-12 inches. i was wondering is it hard taking care of this and how fast does this mofo grow? would there be any chance it could co-exist with Ps? i highly doubt it since the water has to be low for land/water and the P's will rip it a new one at this size unless it outgrows them.


don't even _dream_ about it.


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## Kory (Jun 5, 2003)

CrocKeeper said:


> > i see a baby crocodile for sale. its around 8-12 inches. i was wondering is it hard taking care of this and how fast does this mofo grow? would there be any chance it could co-exist with Ps? i highly doubt it since the water has to be low for land/water and the P's will rip it a new one at this size unless it outgrows them.
> 
> 
> You started your thread with "fresh-water" croc. That is the vernacular of an Australian species that is fairly rare to US collections.
> ...


 I knew he could explain it better than I could.

Great info like always CrocKeeper.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

are you sure it isnt a cainmen (sp.) i frequetly see those for sale listed as crocs or allgators

good info crockeeper man


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

o snap its eric said:


> one thing i dont gret with croc keepers. How the hell do you guys feel safe with one of those suckers when your cleaning the area


 Very simple,

With a large animal, you don't


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## o snap its eric (Feb 19, 2003)

You guys are nuts. However iw ould keep those dwarf gators but i hear they are super agresive


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

> QUOTE (o snap its eric @ Feb 2 2004, 03:20 PM)
> one thing i dont gret with croc keepers. How the hell do you guys feel safe with one of those suckers when your cleaning the area
> 
> Very simple,
> ...


That was well put Poly. Rob Bredl, the "bare-foot Bushman" put it well once too, He said: "I've spent my life with crocs; if I have a philosophy, well it's common sense and logic. The croc will be what he wants to be. I leave him to be a crocodile."

Bottom line you should never feel safe around a potentially lethal animal,whether it is a crocdilian, a ratite, a venomous snake, a large feline, etc... . One may feel confident in ones abilities and knowledge and training, but never fall into the trap of complacency.

To address the Caiman issue sweet-lu, even if the species of crocodilian one thinks about keeping is one of the caiman species there is a substantial commitment to these animals that must be made.Spectecled Caiman (_Caiman _ _crocodilus_) were once the only common species kept. This was sad, as they attain much greater size than most people ever realized, and these people who managed to not kill them through inadequate diet and housing eventually needed a place to take in their captive as they had no-where to place it. That ended when the USF&W service got with the State of Florida and banned their importation into Florida as hatchlings because they felt they could not adequately identify the differences between them and species such as the Yacare (_Caiman _ _yacare_), and Broad-Snouted Caiman (_Caiman _ _latirostris_), both of those species are listed as endangered. Captive propagation of the Spectecled does take place here in the US, by myself and others, but the prices of these animals is far higher than the prices were of the farm raised imports. Cuvier's Dwarf (_Paleosuchus _ _palpebrosus_) is the smallest and as such is easier to house, but still has its drawbacks. The other "dwarf" species of caiman, Schneider's Dwarf (_Paleosuchus _ _trigonatus_) is capable of attaining lengths over seven feet as an adult male, so dwarf is a relative term used.
As of Late in Ohio there were several West African Dwarf Crocodiles ( _Osteolaemus _ _tetraspis_) for sale. This endangered species also stays "relatively" small but has a massive body weight and thick skull unlike the Paleosuchus and is not a species that should be taken on by beginners.


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## ANDY375HH (Jul 22, 2003)

Great info croc keeper. Thats just like the people who buy the cute lookin 12or 13 inch Burmese Python hatchling and are surprised when they get 8 to 12 feet long and need a cage the size of a room.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

ratites are potentially lethal, really??

not meant as sarcasm, i just didnt know that - i have no experience with them, though i have been chased by an ostrich. :smile:


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

Puma said:


> ratites are potentially lethal, really??
> 
> not meant as sarcasm, i just didnt know that - i have no experience with them, though i have been chased by an ostrich. :smile:


cassowaries will rip your guts out faster than you can say 'eviscerated'. Those suckers are no joke, they got malevolent temperaments and clawed feet that would make a velociraptor proud. Undomesticated ostriches can probably do the same. Haven't you ever seen clips of ostrich parents in africa relentlessly chasing off large animals in defense of their eggs? I sure wouldn't want to be thrown in a pit with either of those bird-monsters. Crockeeper mentioned he put all his cassowaries out on loan to various zoos and facilities, where they will remain while his kids are still little.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> Puma said:
> 
> 
> > ratites are potentially lethal, really??
> ...


 thats right p45

i have never seen one of those in the wild but i read about them and they will kill you very quick

now crockeeper not doubting you but a my lps they had about 3 caimen for sale at $100 each. but you said they are endangered. is it possible that these are just a different species or that these were illegal and they wanted to get rid of them fast. also they let this little kid who has about 12 buy one. his parents were there and everything and he said i want one and they gave him to him. i just think that is bad sales buisness


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

some specimens of caiman are regularly sold at lfses, so some species at least are not endangered. Although thats sort of ironic to say, as the individuals being sold are in fact highly suspect to being endangered from the blathering idiot who actually goes out and buys one of them.


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

> now crockeeper not doubting you but a my lps they had about 3 caimen for sale at $100 each. but you said they are endangered. is it possible that these are just a different species or that these were illegal and they wanted to get rid of them fast. also they let this little kid who has about 12 buy one. his parents were there and everything and he said i want one and they gave him to him. i just think that is bad sales buisness


Lu, no offense meant but can you read? I seriously get tired of you not reading a post thoroughly, or just reading parts of it and not digesting the whole...which ever it is, it is annoying when someone does not read something in front of them, and then has something to say about it.......Not all caiman are endangered, nor did I state that all were. Both species of Dwarf Caiman _palpebrosus_, and _trigonatus _are quite commonly sold today ranging in price from $125-$200 dollars. Spectecled Caiman were the standard before their importation into FL was banned, and they themselves are not endangered either, but as hatchlings they resemble other Caiman species that are endangered.....they are still available through captive breeding here in the country, but they no longer sell for the $35-$75.00 they once did, they now fetch $150-$250.

That said, Lu I hope you realize I am not trying to bag on you, I just want you to thoroughly read a post.

As far as selling to a 12 year old....if his parents are willing to be involved and take responsibility then I say it is potentially an allright situation...if the parents know what it is they are getting into....Like I said there is quite a bit of responsibility involved in owning any animal, but seriously so with crocodilians.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

> malevolent temperaments and clawed feet that would make a velociraptor proud


Coincidence?....... I think NOT! ...















Three different branches of archosaurs refered to in one thread, excellent!


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

It is no wonder Herp and Ich people get drawn together......









Of course acestro, I am partial to the thecodonts....


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Sorry. Both for not explaining myself and for the hijacking of the thread for scientific discussion material.

Archosaurs are now thought to be a group of reptiles that includes crocodilians, dinosaurs, and birds. Although it doesn't seem obvious (until you think of references like P45 just did) the birds and dinos are WAY closer to each other than to the crocs. Essentially birds are the feathery velociraptors that survived the impact.

Here's a family tree to help...


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Yeah the ich and herp thing seems to work pretty good. In academics it's all FUBAR, people have trouble understanding that I want my Master's in herp stuff and now my PhD in fish stuff. Oh well...

yeah, you are indeed partial to thecodonts. Did you ever hear/read about when they turned on genes in chick embryos to show that they had the genes for 'thecodont' dentition? How much more evidence does one need?


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Once again derailed, but in a good way...here is a link that has several good explanations on taxonomic view points, both traditionally and cladistically...









http://www.town.morrison.co.us/dinosaur/tax-clad.html

Obviously Ace, you didn't need that link, and others will not have needed it either, but it will help put everybody on the same playing field...


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Cool link, I had no idea that Ankylosaurs had their own Order!!! Whatever that taxonomic rank means, but still!!! Imagine having those guys roaming around with your ratite collection!

And, right, it's like the tree for you. It helps everyone catch up and (like that Ankylosaur order thing) there's always something new that can catch the eye! Whether it's needed or not, perhaps one person can get drawn away from some of the more mundane aspects of the hobby towards cool stuff like this!


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

arrg

my head hurt bad :laugh:

so reptiles and birds are close related and theocondents are big mean killing birds

all i know is herps and i somewhat tend to study snakes and scorpions and that is it


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

acestro said:


> Sorry. Both for not explaining myself and for the hijacking of the thread for scientific discussion material.


 Oh god no stop.

Very nice there, Have not visited this subject for awile
Thanks for jarring that latent impulse.

Now I'm hunting down Aepyornis info again,
Been awile since that road was traveled


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

HAHA!!!

I love Madagascar! Knowing my love for Ratites, I tell you know I would somehow keep and breed Aepyornis if they were an extant instead of exstinct genus.
God, can you imagine a four-toed, 10 foot flightless bird that laid eggs with damn near ten gallons of content!!!!!!!


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

This is going to the scientific forum...









And it got a little polished up too!









Aepyornis, man do I dig a fish hobby site that keeps me scientifically sharp on non-fish stuff!!!

Here's links for pics:

Egg size:

http://vesmir.msu.cas.cz/Madagaskar/images...a1999/JL/39.jpg

The bird itself:

http://www.lemanlake.com/images/Aepyornis_maximus_big.jpg


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

jesus christ, that thing would have a shot at overthrowing crocs and hippos in terms of human fatalities in africa


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

If we are going to study extinct ratites, why not Moa as well? I mean New Zealand is a good spot for not only the smallest living ratite, but sphenodons as well!!!!!!


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

were moas as big as that thing?

also I recall seeing on the discovery channel of post-dinosaur carnivorous birds with much larger/heavier beaks; care to share anything on those?


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## Fruitbat (Jan 2, 2004)

Ah....big CARNIVOROUS birds! Most of the remains of these characters are found in South America where they developed in the absence of true felid and canid carnivores. _Phororhacos_ is probably the best-known genus (from the Oligocene to mid-Miocene of Patagonia). Sometimes called the 'Terror Bird', it was thought to be related to the Ratites but is now considered closer to the Gruiformes (Cranes). Some paleontologists have theorized that they were the dominant land carnivore until the arrival of the true felids and canids from the North. Other researchers claim that they were probably scavengers.

_Diatryma_ was another of the (probably) Gruiform birds that wandered throughout North America during the Eocene. Fossils have been discovered in a number of places including New Mexico and Wyoming. It was a flightless bird up to 7 feet tall with a very large head and heavy beak. Once again there is some debate on whether it was a ferocious predator or a scavenger. Considering that there were no other particularly large, fast carnivores in North American during the Paleocene and Eocene and that the _Diatryma_-like birds rapidly disappeared during the Oligocene with the appearance of fairly large sabre-toothed felids _Hoplophoneus_ and _Dinictis_ and the dog-like Hyaeondonts, indicating that they were out-competed by the new arrivals.

Interesting discussion!


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

ah, yes Diatryma rings the bell! They had that sucker on the Discovery Channel. Badass animal.


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Of the 11 species of Moa, one was 12 feet tall, making it taller potentially than Aepyornis........
Fruit bat covered this exceptionally well









Just a few links to cause oxygen consumption in the firing of brain synapses everywhere....









http://www.nmmnh-abq.mus.nm.us/nmmnh/diatryma.html

http://www.cmnh.org/dinoarch/1998Mar/msg00383.html

http://www.cmnh.org/dinoarch/1998Aug/msg00003.html


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

oooo this can be quite a discussion. From looking at the skeleton I'd say it was NOT a carnivore



> has less developed flexor tubercles on the
> pedal phalanges, and also has a shortened tarsus; all of these features
> suggests a non-predaceous lifestyle


this guy went into more detail than I felt was necessary. For speed, mechanically, it is good to have a long tibia and a short femur. This animal, like the much debated T-rex, doesn't have the long tibia.

In birds the tibia and tarsus fuse into a tibiotarsus I think, it's been a while. Then that guy stating the "shortened tarsus" is saying the same thing.

For the uninitiated: femur=upperleg bone, tibia=lower leg bone...

The last thread talks of the possibility of exclusion from certain habitats by mammals (or habitat conflict between mammals and these birds). I'm sorry, that's what I'd call intellectual masterbation, we can barely understand modern day ecology (and I'd definitely call myself an ecologist).

Many animals share habitats/microhabitats too.

Cool links! And it's nice to have yet another well educated p-fury member in Fruitbat!


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## Polypterus (May 4, 2003)

acestro said:


> The last thread talks of the possibility of exclusion from certain habitats by mammals (or habitat conflict between mammals and these birds). I'm sorry, that's what I'd call intellectual masterbation, we can barely understand modern day ecology (and I'd definitely call myself an ecologist).
> 
> Many animals share habitats/microhabitats too.
> 
> Cool links! And it's nice to have yet another well educated p-fury member in Fruitbat!


 Damn thats on point in all regards.


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## NIKE (Jan 27, 2003)

SWEET JESUS









my brain hurts, that was some mad posting thanks for the read guys


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Well you didn't think that the non-P guys were boring did you Nike?
Oh and about the brain hurting...that is a signal from your stem that you need beer......









Speaking of which..where did I put my pint :rock:


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## NIKE (Jan 27, 2003)

CrocKeeper said:


> Well you didn't think that the non-P guys were boring did you Nike?
> Oh and about the brain hurting...that is a signal from your stem that you need beer......:nod:
> 
> Speaking of which..where did I put my pint :rock:










beer







actually i have been slacking in visiting this forum as i still have tons to lern about p's in general but, i found this thread so informative and the knowledge that you guys share between all of you is something else







oyay and i like how you let p45 hang around you guys like a lil brother, that you have to babysit :rasp: j/k







anywho thanks again


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

It's a pleasure. Having been a teacher, I really enjoy making this really cool stuff understandable to everyone. There's very little info out there that you can't learn as long as you're interested and someone relates it to you well. I think the few sharp members posting in here are really helping to relate that well.

Nice avatar, by the way! I'll be drinking some beer tonight at a basketball game but because I didn't get a ticket for my g/f I wont be seeing anything like that back home for at least a day or two!!! oops, now I'm turning this into a Lounge thread...

yeah, P45 has his moments. I think he's afraid to act smart...








Not easy being non-p on p-fury, but I (being biased) am rather impressed with our side. Never expected to exercise my brain so much when I signed up! It's very cool.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

croc/acestro/poly are the only reasons I still visit this otherwise-hopeless forum. They are the best sources of Absolute/Verifiable/Accurate information regarding the animal specimens I enjoy discussing/learning about.

OMG BSCOTT MADE SOME POSTS TOO







Maybe he'll actually start stopping by regularly now


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## Fruitbat (Jan 2, 2004)

When you start talking paleontology you've stepped into the realm of my OTHER love (besides aquariums and my family). My area of specialization is actually the Perissodactyls (odd-toes ungulates like horses, rhinos, tapirs and chalicotheres) but I've spent quite a lot of time wandering through post-Cretaceous strata all over the United States. Just like keeping fish....if you really want to do it right you've got to do a LOT of background research!!

Glad to be here and be able to contribute something to the discussions! One question though....where did you characters find SweetLu??


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## CrocKeeper (Dec 26, 2003)

Fruitbat, it is always nice to have another area of expertise well represented! Welcome and thank you.
As far as Lu is concerned, he is matrix material waiting to be removed from the fossil.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

> As far as Lu is concerned, he is matrix material waiting to be removed from the fossil.


:laugh:

I think this...







speaks volumes.


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## Kory (Jun 5, 2003)

acestro said:


> > As far as Lu is concerned, he is matrix material waiting to be removed from the fossil.
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


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