# Breeding Cariba?



## Leasure1

Can anyone explian this? Has this happened in captivity? Why not? Do you know why?


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## Mr. Hannibal

_"A few hobbyists have reportedly accomplished the breeding of Pygocentrus cariba. The requirements for breeding this species don't differ much from Pygocentrus nattereri, with a few exceptions. The dry season and wet season need to be applied to this species, but in itself is not really necessary. Good conditions, feeding and care all play an important part than just simulating the seasons. The aquarium size for a sexually mature pair, should be at least a minimum of 55 gallons, heavily planted on one side, the other side bare. The potential breeders should be afforded privacy, so sides of the aquarium should be blocked to prevent the fish from seeing you and free of outside disturbances. Males become dark and the females (at least on reported spawning) are the aggressors. They do build a nest consisting of blowing out sand and/or laying eggs in roots of plants. The rio Orinoco rivers water chemistry is as follows; pH: 4.5-7 (6.0); 2-8 dH (6); 75-82°F (24-28°C). For breeding purposes, water temperature should be at the high-end (84F). The area also undergoes a period of a dry season from October - March. The rainy season runs from April - September. Many aquarists go to a lot of trouble to set up water chemistry and aquascaping to get their fish to spawn. The problem seems to be to get the fish in the mood and try to simulate (and stimulate) their spawning season. While it is true that most fish spawn seasonally, it is not necessarily because it is compulsory for them, only that the habitat regulates when they can. If the habitat allows continuous spawning, most commonly in hydroelectric reservoirs, then the fish will take advantage of that. An example is the Brazilian piranha Serrasalmus spilopleura (= S. maculatus), which changes its behavior to spawn continuously in reservoirs (Dale Speirs, California Academy of Sciences).

According to hobbyist and business owner, Jim Smith formerly of Lurking In The Weeds Pet Store in Michigan, who has successfully bred this species, he recommends keeping an air stone going on one side of the tank. This way when you simulate a dry season (for 1 week) you can turn off filters. Drop the water level down 20% of fill. Keep a close watch of weather patterns as Jim says these fish are effected by barometric pressure (some authorities dispute this), but I personally have seen a much greater degree of pre-breeding behavior at the start of rains here in Oregon. At the onset of the rainy season, raise the water level up again at fill. Restart the filter, use peat as this to will encourage fish to get into breeding behavior. For the wet season, water was raised at 1-degree temperature difference from the current water temperature. The fish react to changes in rainwater in the Amazon and helps make the breeding season begin. Jim stated that he had good success following this regimen even though it is time-consuming. The end results did bear fruit. Aquarist attempting this should remember, each circumstances are different. What worked for Jim may not work for you and there are many reason's for that. Some hobbyist take the opinion all they have to do is simulate the conditions and their fish automatically will spawn. As discussed here and elsewhere in OPEFE, it takes more than that and certainly the fishes must be conditioned first. Without this key, then you are basically wasting your time. There is no magic formula, but common sense does help and knowing the fish and what their requirements are, helps tremendously in bringing a satisfactory result.

According to present scientific studies, the size at sexual maturity of P. cariba varied in connection with sex, 50% maturity occurred at 188 mm SL (7.402 in.) for females and 165 mm SL (6.496 in.) for males. Female and male P. cariba underwent annual gonadal maturation from January to April/May, and spawning or spermiation occurred between July and August (Guerrero HY, Caceres-Dittmar G, Marcano D.)."_*
*http://www.opefe.com/cariba.html








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## hitler

Nuff said


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## 911

nice hannibal


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## a-ronn

Well that just seems to easy if it is as easy as breeds reds. Or pritty much the same way to do it why does noone do it ?


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## taylorhedrich

I was just about to mention Jim Smith. I didn't read Hannibal's whole post, but if you want to breed caribas, here are some things to consider:
-It would be a good idea to try and find a breeder to get the cariba fry off of. You would probably have better breeding success with F1 caribas rather than wild caught ones.

-You would want to replicate their natural habitat as much as possible. This means natural decor, natural water conditions (low pH and blackwater extract). It is also VERY important to replicate the dry season with your aquarium. Up the temperature a bit and lower the water level. This is probably one of the main reasons Jim Smith had success in breeding them.

-Give them privacy! I believe Jim covered his whole tank with desktop background and only cut a small slot for viewing.

Even if these actions are taken, it does not mean these fish will breed. It might be a good idea to try breeding reds before you even attempt cariba. This way you get a feel for the fish and gain experience.
~Taylor~


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## harrykaa

to Piranha Breeding Forum

Harry


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## hastatus

> a-ronn Posted Yesterday, 07:57 PM
> *Well that just seems to easy if it is as easy as breeds reds.* Or pritty much the same way to do it why does noone do it ?


Not sure what you mean. No one has said its "easy". Perhaps you can let us know where that is coming from?

Jim Smith has indeed bred P. cariba. Does he have photos of it? Of course not, most professional breeders don't have the time to record such achievements nor the interest. They are more into producing stock than to producing EGO.



> taylorhedrich Posted Yesterday, 07:58 PM
> I was just about to mention Jim Smith. I didn't read Hannibal's whole post, but if you want to breed caribas, here are some things to consider:
> -It would be a good idea to try and find a breeder to get the cariba fry off of. You would probably have better breeding success with F1 caribas rather than wild caught ones.
> 
> -You would want to replicate their natural habitat as much as possible. This means natural decor, natural water conditions (low pH and blackwater extract). It is also VERY important to replicate the dry season with your aquarium. Up the temperature a bit and lower the water level. This is probably one of the main reasons Jim Smith had success in breeding them.
> 
> -Give them privacy! I believe Jim covered his whole tank with desktop background and only cut a small slot for viewing.
> 
> Even if these actions are taken, it does not mean these fish will breed. It might be a good idea to try breeding reds before you even attempt cariba. This way you get a feel for the fish and gain experience.
> ~Taylor~


Jim has taken a lot of hits from a few hobbyists, including some that picked his brain for information and now are putting him down because he has no photos to prove the P. cariba breeding. Pretty selfish and self-centered. Fortunately, they are in the minority and their words are lost except a few who buy into the 1 breed dog show.


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## a-ronn

Well i read what mr hannibal posted and it seemed the same as breeding reds. Nothing special.


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## colt

I don't imagine breeding Caribes would be just as easy as reds, it seems alot of members here have Caribe...you would think being that easy the market would be flooded with them.

I believe that anyone with the time, money and resources would be able to breed Caribe...most of us lack the one thing out of those three...the time.

If Caribe were readily available around here, I would give breeding a shot.


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## a-ronn

I never said it was easy hanibals post just made is seem easy.


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## colt

a-ronn said:


> I never said it was easy hanibals post just made is seem easy.


I wasn't taking digs at anyone


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## hastatus

> colt Posted Yesterday, 10:32 PM
> QUOTE(a-ronn @ Aug 10 2006, 12:58 AM)
> 
> I never said it was easy hanibals post just made is seem easy.
> 
> I wasn't taking digs at anyone
> 
> a-ronn Posted Yesterday, 09:58 PM
> I never said it was easy hanibals post just made is seem easy.


Its all good. The idea is take the information that is posted and use it towards the goal of breeding cariba.


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## a-ronn

Well i dont plan on trying to breed any fish. It is alot of work even breeding reds. My buddy was a breeder for a bit and he said it turned him off fish keeping all together. Sp ima stick to keeping them for fun.


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## HOLLYWOOD

I truely agree with this statement.......... the work involved to get them from fry to 1" is called " DAILY DEDICATION". One missed day could amount to several hundreds to lossing the whole spawn.



a-ronn said:


> It is alot of work even breeding reds. My buddy was a breeder for a bit and he said it turned him off fish keeping all together. Sp ima stick to keeping them for fun.


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## Fry

I believe its the aggression that makes the breeding difficult.







Maybe all thats needed is a vallium drip.haha. I would love to have a shoal of caribe my redz are just way too horny these days now that I have 2 breeding pairs.I think I may sell them and try get caribe in.Atleast if the caribe turn into rabbits I know I will have no problem selling them.


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## rocker

whos jim?

lol nvm it helps to read everything lol


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## JFK

Does anyone now if the same priciples apply to Piraya or if different methods are needed.

JFK


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## NeXuS

that would b cool to breed caribe but then again not cuz of all the work involved


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## mashunter18

Dirtyratbastard said:


> Can anyone explian this? Has this happened in captivity? Why not? Do you know why?


it has happend as has been said.

Its pretty simple why it doesnt happen regularely. All the elements required for the fish to spawn were not meet. Could be outside weather condtions, ph, temp....etc..everything has to be lined up right for the fish to want to spawn.

years ago no one could keep discus fry alive, untill one guy decided to see if the fry would survive with the parents, and BAM the missing element was discovered, and it was as simple as the fry needing the slim coat from the parents body.


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## hastatus

> mashunter18 Posted Today, 01:23 PM
> QUOTE(Dirtyratbastard @ Aug 7 2006, 09:20 PM)
> 
> Can anyone explian this? Has this happened in captivity? Why not? Do you know why?
> 
> it has happend as has been said.
> 
> Its pretty simple why it doesnt happen regularely. All the elements required for the fish to spawn were not meet. Could be outside weather condtions, ph, temp....etc..everything has to be lined up right for the fish to want to spawn.
> 
> years ago no one could keep discus fry alive, untill one guy decided to see if the fry would survive with the parents, and BAM the missing element was discovered, *and it was as simple as the fry needing the slim coat from the parents body. *


Exactly









I also have received emails and pm's that the fish spawned was not P. cariba at all and many other ridiculous assersions. Including the fish was probably P. nattereri with a spot and it was confused for cariba.









I have a dated photo of the P. cariba juvies from that period, but doesn't prove that it came from his breeders. You can say those are just imports. Keep in mind, during the period of that photo, few people even knew what a juvie cariba even looked like, much less had photos of them. The guy Jim Smith was breeding them didn't "document" it because to him it was a hobby and a business. He wasn't doing it for ego or trying to be a piranha breeding god.


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## Mughal

Not to disagree with the entire OPEFE, but taking a picture of a sucessful batch of fry is Not an Ego trip. No one would even think of buying a 'pair' of discus unless a picture was taken of them rearing the babes, and no1 would pay top dollars for the fry unless the parents pictures are provided. I know of *no* breeder who thinks they are 'cooler' because they have pics of thier sucessful brood. Saying that he didn't take pics becuse it was his 'business' is just plain stupid. In fact it would probably be the most important 'business' decision ever made to take pictures of a 1st time fry rearing. IMHO Jim was slightly dim-witted not to have taken pictures.

In a business sense 2 seven inch leopard discus will sell for about 200$ each. Take those same 2 and show a picture of them mated and rearing fry and immediately those discus are worth above 600$ together, and their fry are worth dollars more.


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## hastatus

> Mughal Posted Today, 12:35 PM
> * Not to disagree with the entire OPEFE*, but taking a picture of a sucessful batch of fry is Not an Ego trip. No one would even think of buying a 'pair' of discus unless a picture was taken of them rearing the babes, and no1 would pay top dollars for the fry unless the parents pictures are provided. I know of no breeder who thinks they are 'cooler' because they have pics of thier sucessful brood. Saying that he didn't take pics becuse it was his 'business' is just plain stupid. In fact it would probably be the most important 'business' decision ever made to take pictures of a 1st time fry rearing. IMHO Jim was slightly dim-witted not to have taken pictures.
> 
> In a business sense 2 seven inch leopard discus will sell for about 200$ each. Take those same 2 and show a picture of them mated and rearing fry and immediately those discus are worth above 600$ together, and their fry are worth dollars more.


Hmm, I'm relaying Jim's ideas/words. Not my own. If it were me, I'd photograph them as a record. But then not everyone thinks the same, doesn't make HIM or YOU dimwitted one way or the other.


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## a-ronn

He could possible be doing this so he can sell them as wild cought for more money?


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## hastatus

> a-ronn Posted Today, 06:44 PM
> He could possible be doing this so he can sell them as wild cought for more money?


Dealers don't do that.


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## Malok

a-ronn said:


> He could possible be doing this so he can sell them as wild cought for more money?


also i would pay more for cariba that were not wild caught at this point in time then i would for wild caught just because i would think i had a better chance of breeding 100%tank raised over wild caught maybe it in thier (genes) for lack of a better word to breed in a tank.


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## Speedy

Malok said:


> He could possible be doing this so he can sell them as wild cought for more money?


also i would pay more for cariba that were not wild caught at this point in time then i would for wild caught just because i would think i had a better chance of breeding 100%tank raised over wild caught maybe it in thier (genes) for lack of a better word to breed in a tank.
[/quote]

That makes sense seeing as RBP's seem to be breeding like crazy all of a sudden (mostly tank raised) and "almost" no one is boasting tank raised Caribe fry.....It'll likely be years from now before Caribe breed like Reds in the home aquarium. 
Rhoms may be next....Never know when you F with Mother Nature

In no way is this an expert opinion.....just my humble one as an avid Piranha hobbyist.
I've got (4) x 10"-13" Caribe and they can't stand each other, even in a 200+gl tank.
No sex happening in this tank yet.....


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## NeXuS

good luck breeding ur caribe.


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## Dawgz

hopefully once my 3 are big enough, hopefully i have atleast 1 male and 1 female, and not all female and not all male lol...

hopefully i can breed these guys. but thats about a year away, they are at about 4" now...


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## mr_rob_boto

sounds to me like a good hobby to try once you save your vacation time








good luck


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## Dawgz

at wat size\age are caribe ready to breed?


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## FootClanSkates

Mughal said:


> No one would even think of buying a 'pair' of discus unless a picture was taken of them rearing the babes


Going along with the idea that not everyone thinks the same way...
I have been keeping and raising discus for a couple years now, and I have bought 3 pair in the last couple months with no pictures of fry. All three pair have produced for me, and I didn't mind the lack of pictures.


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## Dawgz

we'll ive gottn more caribe in, im gettin a few larger ones as well, and hopefully in the summer i can go ahead with breeding.


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