# Piranhas scratching glass?



## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Before we had discussions on how I got scratches in my tank and we concluded it must be from rocks or gravel, well I found a new one today and its about 16" above the gravel so there is no way any rocks or anything except the fish or snails that get up there, I really think the piranhas do sractch the glass

Frank perhaps if you have a fresh specimen to try and scratch with do it underwater, and perhaps why your teeth broke off it was an old and dried out jaw and wasnt as strong as it was when the fish was alive, I have a frozen Piraya I may try this with but its pretty small so I dont know if I could do it


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Being underwater will make no difference. If one substance is "harder" than another it wont scratch. I dont think its from the p's man.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> so there is no way any rocks or anything except the fish or snails that get up there, I really think the piranhas do sractch the glass
> 
> Frank perhaps if you have a fresh specimen to try and scratch with do it underwater, and perhaps why your teeth broke off it was an old and dried out jaw and wasnt as strong as it was when the fish was alive


 Nate, I'm not going to devote my time to putting dead fish with calcium based teeth to test your thoughts out on this. Your idea is calcium based teeth are strong enough to scratch glass. Here is what I suggest instead, use your own teeth and see if you can scratch your tank's glass.

And even if what you suggest was true about the dried out fish, the teeth would harden by being outside of the water, so your theory is way off target.


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## piranha 13 (Feb 16, 2003)

Maybe you accidently scratched it with your net or something.


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## 123 (Feb 26, 2003)

yea i agree with pirhana 13 i dont think they can scratch glass


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I dont use anything in my tank that could scratch it, I dont wear jewelry or anything

when it comes to scratching hard surfaces the thing that scratches doesnt always have to be harder, that is if enough force is applied and in the case of piranhas a quick ram may do it


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I dont either. First you have to get past the large jaw and lips to get to the teeth. And teeth just dont seem hard enough to actually scratch glass.


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## jdk79 (Feb 22, 2003)

Nate... Here's my theory with the scratch...do your snails have large shells?? What could of happened was one was climbing on the side of the tank and one of your p's seen it and attacked it and pressed it along the side of the tank causing the mark?? It could happen I would think! I agree with you... you wouldn't of made that big of a scratch and not notice it. What do you think??


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I asked about the shell idea and Frank says they are made of similar composition


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## jdk79 (Feb 22, 2003)

If pressed hard enough it could scratch it... nothing against frank, he is alot smarter about piranhas than most of us probably put together but he doesn't know everything. Nobody does, stuff happens and its hard to explain. Im sure the fish caused it somehow.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

jdk79 said:


> stuff happens and its hard to explain. Im sure the fish caused it somehow.


thats my thinking as well, I will spend alot more time watching the fish closely to see if I can see them create a scratch

there is no other possible way for the newest scratch to be there other than the fish doing it somehow regardless of what anybody says


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Break out the coffee Nate :smile:


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## SnowCichlid (Jan 10, 2003)

must be some cheap glass or something


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

This is an X File i think!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Mr. Hannibal Posted on Apr 5 2003, 05:39 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> This is an X File i think!


 Usually the case with imagination. Now science is being re-written that a calcium based shell of a snail can now scratch glass, what's next? And to think I thought we were past this nonsense. Oh well.


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

i don't know ..and honestly don't care..sorry


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > Mr. Hannibal Posted on Apr 5 2003, 05:39 AM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > This is an X File i think!
> ...


 Its no imagination I have shown you pics in the past, there is no other way to explain this unless the fish or snail shells are doing this


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

It seems that after some research, tooth enamel and glass have similar hardness. Glass is roughly a hardness of 5.5 and tooth enamel was rated at 5. Now the question remains.....Do piranha even have tooth enamel....and if they do, do they have sufficient pressure to cause a scrath!?!? I dont think so, Frank tested it with one of his dead fish.

http://www.efunda.com/units/hardness/conve...cat=Steel&HD=HM


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Xenon Posted on Apr 5 2003, 04:37 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Do piranha even have tooth enamel.


Piranas like shark teeth, have enamel. There are few exceptions (ie; sawteeth shark etc.).


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## RHOMKILLA (Feb 22, 2003)

Have you concluded whether the scratch is inside or outside your tank.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

its on the inside for sure, no scratches on the outside, about 10 total on the inside now, most along the bottom in their favorite corner

newest one is about 14" or so off the bottom so that rules out possibilites of rock doing it

I believe piranhas could apply enough force, considering mine are all 9.5"+ and they dart when chased rather fast, its called "impulse" which means a greater reaction occurs due to a shorter time that the force is applied, and pressure which is simply force divided by the area of the tooth tip, which the area of the point is very small which create an extremely large pressure without too much force, I will test the scratching with a freshly presseved piraya soon thats in the freezer


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Nate, I could maybe buy a ding in the glass, but a scratch.....
A scratch would require constant pressure for the length of the scratch and I dont see that happening. For one think p's teeth are pretty covered up, and another, do you really think a piranha could have his teeth exposed to the glass long enough with enough constant pressure to cause an actual scratch on the glass? I cant explain why your glass is scratched but I think you are really reaching if you think your fish are doing it.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

grosse gurke said:


> Nate, I could maybe buy a ding in the glass, but a scratch.....
> A scratch would require constant pressure for the length of the scratch and I dont see that happening. For one think p's teeth are pretty covered up, and another, do you really think a piranha could have his teeth exposed to the glass long enough with enough constant pressure to cause an actual scratch on the glass? I cant explain why your glass is scratched but I think you are really reaching if you think your fish are doing it.


 when they ram into it when chasing eachother their mouths are usually open and when they hit the glass their gums are shoved back which will expose teeth, I posted pics of the scratches before and they were fairly long and very noticable to the human eye.

and it better not be cheap glass, its an All-Glass redrilled tank


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

good find on the link Mike


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## Nethius (Feb 23, 2003)

grosse gurke said:


> Nate, I could maybe buy a ding in the glass, but a scratch.....
> A scratch would require constant pressure for the length of the scratch and I dont see that happening. For one think p's teeth are pretty covered up, and another, do you really think a piranha could have his teeth exposed to the glass long enough with enough constant pressure to cause an actual scratch on the glass? I cant explain why your glass is scratched but I think you are really reaching if you think your fish are doing it.


 i would have to agree here... cant see a piranha making a long scratch in the galss...


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

as fast as they swim they would only have to scrape the glass for a small portion of a second, its very possible from a physical standpoint and thats why I believe it is the fish doing it


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 6 2003, 05:17 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> as fast as they swim they would only have to scrape the glass for a small portion of a second, its very possible from a physical standpoint and thats why I believe it is the fish doing it


Then no point in keep asking me or anyone else then about this topic. You have your own answers and this is the second time on new thread you have asked it and the majority (including myself) have replied to this topic. So why not just consider that your piranas are far more unique and different than anyone else's. I consider the matter closed. BTW, I should add, I took the jaw from a large shark with teeth approximately 2 1/2 inches long (far larger than a piranas) and much more sharper and ran it across the glass tanks, It did make a line that appeared like a scratch. When I rubbed my finger over it, it wiped off. You can see the shark jaw in the lounge where RCR took some photos of it during his and pcrose visit.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

the whole point of this newest post is that it cannot be rocks because the latest scratch is to high for it to be rocks unless they carry them in their mouth to engrave with,









so I am just trying to point out that it seems to be the only logical conclusion that they can indeed scrape glass, the reason shark tooth may not work is the tip of it is much greater than that of piranhas teeth, so with shark tooth there would be less pressure


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted: Mar 21 2003, 04:58 PM
> 
> Frank,
> Thank you for getting the information for me. I stand corrected and I want to appologize for doubting you. I was wrong and you were right.


 Nate must it be necessary for you to go through this again? I would hate to pin you up again. If you say your fish are doing it, I'm perfectly happy with letting it rest. But your following remark:



> the reason shark tooth may not work is the tip of it is much greater than that of piranhas teeth, so with shark tooth there would be less pressure


 Is dead wrong and again you are showing how little you know about structure of teeth in fishes.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > Sir Nathan XXI Posted: Mar 21 2003, 04:58 PM
> >
> > Frank,
> > Thank you for getting the information for me. I stand corrected and I want to appologize for doubting you. I was wrong and you were right.
> ...


 actually frank you are wrong the tip of a sharks tooth is bigger than that of a piranha tooth, the teeth are very similar but piranhas have a scaled down version it deals with presure

example if you put a blunt nail to your hand and somebody hits it with a hammer it goes through

if they hit a piece of plywood on your hand it might sting

the reason being pressure equals force divided by area --------> P=F/A


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> example if you put a blunt nail to your hand and somebody hits it with a hammer it goes through
> 
> if they hit a piece of plywood on your hand it might sting


 Pirana teeth are not blunt, they have a tip and serrated edges. Shark teeth are not blunt, they have a tip and serrated edges. All things being equal, the smaller teeth of a pirana can cut meat just like a shark. The smaller teeth of a pirana can not scratch glass nor the larger teeth of a shark. Both are composed of the same material and both are enameled. So your analogy (as usual) is completely off target. And I am done with it as I am now done with you.


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## LouiCypher (Mar 10, 2003)

Wow, you guys are still goin on this topic. The teeth didn't scratch the glass, you scratched the glass.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Cypher said:


> Wow, you guys are still goin on this topic. The teeth didn't scratch the glass, you scratched the glass.


 Yes Cypher, unfortunately this is the norm.







Nate's mind was already made up when he asked the question making this debate irrelevant. Someone should just close this thread and we'll just pretend that Nate's fish has super powers that allow them to do things otherwise impossible.


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## Josh (Feb 21, 2003)

Do you have a magnetic algae scraper?


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I use a sponge to clean my algae with so its not me









Frank I am not trying to say one is blunt, I am trying to compare them, when comparing shark teeth to piranha teeth of my fish 10" the piranhas tooth will have a much smaller point or the part that would be scratching the glass which would make the piranhas tooth scratch easier than a sharks, its a physical stand point, nothing to do with material and such, just surface area of the tip, that leads to a greater pressure created from the piranhas teeth


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## mdemers883 (Jan 9, 2003)

This is a little off the topic, but this thread has become a typical nate thread anyway. So I"m going to see if I can pull some knowledge out of it. Josh you asked if it was a magnetic algae scraper, I have one of those. Do these scratch glass at all, I haven't noticed any scratches on my tank but I would like to know if the magnetic scrapers have any negatives that I should know about. Thanks.

Mark


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Well I guess this is yet another case of take it of leave it Nate, seems like you've chosen to leave it for your own pre-conceived notions. Anyways...









Mdemers, sometimes they can pick up pieces of gravel and scratch the tank. Not uncommon.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Neoplasia said:


> Someone should just close this thread and we'll just pretend that Nate's fish has super powers that allow them to do things otherwise impossible.


 Neo, I have been waiting for Nates test with his little dead piraya so this subject can finally be put out of its misery.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I will try tonight to test with my own piranha teeth, I have a Cariba jaw and a forozen Piraya to try it with, I am gonna try it on the aquarium on the back or something so hopefully it will be the same or similar glass.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> I will try tonight to test with my own piranha teeth, I have a Cariba jaw and a forozen Piraya to try it with, I am gonna try it on the aquarium on the back or something so hopefully it will be the same or similar glass.


 I look foward to your test Nate. Please take pictures of your test.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

if it does work, which it should I will take a short video of it


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## mdemers883 (Jan 9, 2003)

Neo, thanks for the info on the algea scraper. One more quick question. Is it better to buy just a plain old algae scraper that you see at pretty much any LFS? Thank for any input.

Mark


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

mdemers883 said:


> Neo, thanks for the info on the algea scraper. One more quick question. Is it better to buy just a plain old algae scraper that you see at pretty much any LFS? Thank for any input.
> 
> Mark


 I use something similar that is cheaper just a plain old soft sponge, you my have to rub a little harder but you dont have to worry about scratching anything


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 7 2003, 03:06 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I will try tonight to test with my own piranha teeth, I have a Cariba jaw and a forozen Piraya to try it with, I am gonna try it on the aquarium on the back or something so hopefully it will be the same or similar glass.


 Your statement and assertions are about YOUR AQUARIO GLASS. For this test to be successful and prove your assertions then it must on done ON YOUR TANK GLASS not something similar as you are stating. Otherwise it will prove nothing other than you have cheap glass.


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

mdemers883 said:


> Neo, thanks for the info on the algea scraper. One more quick question. Is it better to buy just a plain old algae scraper that you see at pretty much any LFS? Thank for any input.
> 
> Mark


 Personal preference mostly. I have a double-sided manual scraper, one has a soft sponge and the other a denser one. I tend to use the coarser side because it really pulls off the crap on the glass, which means it also gets gunky faster (cleans off easily though). I have never used a magnetic scraper as my manual one works great.

There is absolutely no way for a sponge to scrape glass on it's own, if a shark tooth cannot scratch glass then there's no chance a sponge will.

Gurk, I am eagerly awaiting this as well. I don't know the status of the experiment, but hopefully it will be ready soon.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> There is absolutely no way for a sponge to scrape glass on it's own, if a shark tooth cannot scratch glass then there's no chance a sponge will.


 We could try a dull nail







. But I'm having trouble understanding the connection between that and two objects of equal shape, though not size. Common sense dictates that a large sharp object using direct pressure would cause more damage and puncture deeper than a small sharp object of equal shape. lb per lb shark teeth are far stronger in mass than piranas, not to mention biting ability. But then, this is just going around in circles and atypical:



> Neoplasia Posted on Apr 7 2003, 02:02 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Well I guess this is yet another case of take it of leave it Nate


.


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## LouiCypher (Mar 10, 2003)

Do you have kids Nate? Ask the kids Nate.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Cypher said:


> Do you have kids Nate? Ask the kids Nate.


 what are you talking about, Im 21 so no kids for me


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 7 2003, 03:06 PM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > I will try tonight to test with my own piranha teeth, I have a Cariba jaw and a forozen Piraya to try it with, I am gonna try it on the aquarium on the back or something so hopefully it will be the same or similar glass.
> 
> ...


 I am going to scrath the tank, but on the back so I dont have to see it thats what I meant


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Nate have you tried it yet?


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I am looking for my Cariba jaw that I had, I cannot find it, I would prefer to use if first before having to mess with my frozen piraya, I would like to have it Taxidermied some day. Give my a chance to find the teeth


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Its been almost 4 days (restarted topic by Nate on 6 April) and wondering about his _test_ of a pirana scratching a glass.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

I am curious as well.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I know they can, whether I can prove it or not, some of the scratches have what I call twins that are close together that can only be made by something held together in a line, like a row of teeth, there are soo many scratches its not funny, if I run a finernail along them it catches, they are that deep, no rocks are gonna do that, I will wait until I can find the cariba jaw, then do it.

the proof is from the link Mike found the hardness is pretty much the same so thats proof enough, whether Frank can do it or not matters not,

but as I promised one of these days once I can find my teeth (lost in my closet most likely) I will give you all proof

Frank test is again, but this time hold the jaw nearly perpendicular to the glass with only a slight angle, and then in a quick motion slash at the glass (thats probably how the fish are doing it) make it a quick fast blow, as if you were trying to hit me or somethign :biggrin:


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 10 2003, 01:42 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I know they can, whether I can prove it or not, some of the scratches have what I call twins that are close together that can only be made by something held together in a line, like a row of teeth, there are soo many scratches its not funny, if I run a finernail along them it catches, they are that deep, no rocks are gonna do that, I will wait until I can find the cariba jaw, then do it.
> 
> ...


Here is a news flash for you Nate, pirana teeth 1) pirana teeth are curved inwards so would have no effect.

2)


> whether Frank can do it or not matters not


 This alone qualifies what the majority of people in Pfury have said about you including myself, you are only interested in being R-I-G-H-T never wrong. Something I thought we were past in Piranha Science and obviously your only interest was having the pinned topics removed. So here is another bit of news for you. I kept them saved and as soon as I have a chance later tonight or tommorrow I will reinstall them nice and pinned up.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Actually my link proved that glass is a hardness of 5.5 and tooth enamel is a hardness of 5. Enamel will not scratch glass. Even if by some weird chance it is possible, there are still the variables that effect its likliehood....more particularly the lack of pressure to do it, the fact that the teeth curve in, etc. Im not convinced.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Xenon Posted on Apr 10 2003, 02:17 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Actually my link proved that glass is a hardness of 5.5 and tooth enamel is a hardness of 5. Enamel will not scratch glass. Even if by some weird chance it is possible, there are still the variables that effect its likliehood....more particularly the lack of pressure to do it, the fact that the teeth curve in, etc. Im not convinced


 As I clearly stated Xenon, nate does not know squat about tooth structure, just a melange of BS of opinions.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

hastatus said:


> . I kept them saved and as soon as I have a chance later tonight or tommorrow I will reinstall them nice and pinned up.


 Oh know, I am soo frightened, but truthfully that was not my real intention, I was honeslty wrong about the Natt max size and so I admited it, as I will when I am proven wrong beyond a reasonable doubt to myself, I will guarantee you are wrong on this matter Frank

Xenon actually it does prove it, materials close to hardness can scratch and wear eachother if there is enough pressure or force. Trust me its an engineering matter, nothing Frank would know about. If you saw the scratches you would know for yourself teeth of my cariba made them


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 10 2003, 02:40 AM ...Trust me its an engineering matter, nothing Frank would know about.


If only I would be paid a $1 each time an engineer said that while they sat and watched a bridge or building being taken down by nature. Or the twin centers by a plane. I see your future Nate and I don't need a crystal ball or telepathy.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

oh in that case Frank it will give me a chance to put your quote back into my signature, Ill be watching for the posts


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Whatever Nate, I'm done with this topic and I'm sure all have another good feed on your mental abilities and knowledge (or lack thereof.....night all.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

WOW! my opinion is something fell and scratched it or something. i doubt your fish scratched it.
wes


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

you see everyone, Wes gave his opinion and didnt have to act like an a$$ about it, I appreciate his comment even though it dissagrees with me, the point is if people could learn some manners, we wouldnt have these long and ignorant back and forths like we do, people should learn from people like Wes


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> you see everyone, Wes gave his opinion and didnt have to act like an a$$ about it, I appreciate his comment even though it dissagrees with me, the point is if people could learn some manners, we wouldnt have these long and ignorant back and forths like we do, people should learn from people like Wes


 LOL. Ok so now the only acceptable way a person can disagree with you is if they just post five words and move on in the most sterile manner possible. Give me a break dude. I only _wish_ you could be more like wes and state your opinion instead of *never* knowing when to shut it and move on.

Actually, it isnt an engineering problem, it is a science problem.....but I would like to think its a common sense problem....which is something you are quickly proving you lack.

_*Anxiously awaiting your "I want the last word no matter what" reply_


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## Neoplasia (Feb 16, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> you see everyone, Wes gave his opinion and didnt have to act like an a$$ about it, I appreciate his comment even though it dissagrees with me, the point is if people could learn some manners, we wouldnt have these long and ignorant back and forths like we do, people should learn from people like Wes


 Oh shut up Nate, you are the last person who should be telling others how to behave. You're also the last person I would want engineering advice from, maybe if you went to one of the best engineering schools I'd give it more consideration, but seeing how little you actually absorb in other matters you designing anything is a scary prospect. Now you're an expert in dentistry? Even IF a piranha tooth could scratch the tank glass, the likelyhood that so many scratches of continuous length is virtually unimabinable. It's not teeth, probably something stuck in a sponge that wasn't noticed, or when things were rearranged. It's far more likely the scratches had been there for a while before you noticed them, I notice things in my tank all the time, but that doesn't mean they magically appeared or my super-power fish did it.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

just for your info, OSU is in the top 20 Engineering schools, and I do very well :biggrin:


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 10 2003, 02:40 AM ...Trust me its an engineering matter, nothing Frank would know about.
> 
> 
> If only I would be paid a $1 each time an engineer said that while they sat and watched a bridge or building being taken down by nature. Or the twin centers by a plane. I see your future Nate and I don't need a crystal ball or telepathy.


 I am not going to be a civil engineer either, perhaps if you knew something about it, you would know that


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Here you go dingo. The civil engineers depend on your ability to comprehend and make things work. Wish them luck with you:



> If only I would be paid a $1 each time an engineer said that while they sat and watched a bridge or building being taken down by nature.


 Nothing misunderstood about what I wrote. If they depend on your ability to create things that help them, they would be in trouble and nature would prove it.



> Mechanical engineers research, develop, design, manufacture, and test tools, engines, machines, and other mechanical devices. They work on power-producing machines such as electric generators, internal combustion engines, and steam and gas turbines. They also develop power-using machines such as refrigeration and air-conditioning equipment, machine tools, material handling systems, elevators and escalators, industrial production equipment, and robots used in manufacturing. _Mechanical engineers also design tools needed by other engineers for their work. _The field of nanotechnology, which involves the creation of high-performance materials and components by integrating atoms and molecules, is introducing entirely new principles to the design process.


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## maggot (Feb 17, 2003)

As a fellow senior mechanical engineering student, I feel compelled to defend my pursued profession in the midst of the current hostility. Please note I am not trying to add any more negativity or hostility in this post. One of the things I was taught my freshman year is that what makes an engineer an engineer is the data he has to back up his opinions. This data would be made up of scientific study, either performed by the individual or reliable data from someone else (i.e. existing laws of mechanics, thermodynamics ect.). In the labs I have performed here at school, my opinion does not produce good grades in lab reports. It is the facts that back up my opinion, derived from the lab itself, which change the opinion into fact. Is the question of a p's teeth scratching glass fact or an opinion? If it is fact, than the evidence should be presented. If opinion, the heat expended in this thread should be saved until the final facts are provided. Granted that evidence does not always validate an opinion totally, however it lends much more credibility. The only purpose of this lengthy post is to say, "Does this topic warrant this much heat". It sucks when you cannot glean useful information due to all the personal attacks.







For those of us in scientific fields of study, why don't we agree that everyone will have their opinions and most will think theirs are right, inspite of existing evidence (I site the whole "tern" debate as evidence). However, I would have flunked out of school my first year if I had not learned to listen to opinions that differed from mine and been able to except when my opinion proved to be wrong. This board rocks and I would hate to see people turned away by bickering. Peace.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> maggot Posted on Apr 10 2003, 08:04 PM


 I agree with just about everything you wrote. Point is/was, I did indeed test several species of pirana teeth both direct contact (point) and side contact using specimens of P. piraya, S. rhombeus, P. nattereri and P. cariba. Different sizes of fish were also used ranging from 6 inches to large adult 20 inches. None of them produced a single scratch. The shark teeth used did indeed produce a scratch like appearance, but as I stated, it rubbed off.

As for your fellow engineer, he has simply provided excuses for not attempting the same test and indeed is set on his own opinion without deviation or interest in accepting the results because of bias. That sir, is the main problem why this debate was heated.


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## RHOMKILLA (Feb 22, 2003)

Geez all this over a scratch.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> RHOMKILLA Posted on Apr 10 2003, 08:27 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Geez all this over a scratch.


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## mdemers883 (Jan 9, 2003)

after so many posts of this sort he has never presented hard evidence to back himself up and has never admitted to being wrong (except in the size thread) and yet he still does the same thing over and over again. Frank I cannot comprehend the amount of self control that you must need to speak to this kid, cause just reading the crap he posts drives me up a wall. All the threads are the same, Frank presents scientific info, and Nate just repsonds with a bunch of BS that would try to make him look correct but just shows how incorrect he is. To settle this thread why don't we just say that SuperNate has SuperFish that are the only ones capable of scratching aquariums


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> mdemers883 Posted on Apr 10 2003, 09:08 PM .....Frank I cannot comprehend the amount of self control that you must need to speak to this kid, cause just reading the crap he posts drives me up a wall


. #1 It is because this is a message board which the printed word can either be emotional or not depends on where you are intellectually. When I write as I have stated many times, it is clinical not emotional. #2 Even if Nate doesn't learn anything or simply refuses, there are others here that will learn. That out weighs anything Nate throws at me. So just sit back, read and get to the real stuff that matters.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

if somebody would like to donate a fairly fresh cariba jaw I would be happy to give proof,

fairly fresh = less than a year since it was disected


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

Id like to add one note to this, I did use a piece of gravel from the tank and it can indeed scratch the glass, so that does explain some of the low level scratches, but how do you propose gravel is getting up to 14" above the rest of the substrate and scratching the glass? Somebody said the fish could carry it in their mouths and do it, that a far fetch


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I omitted the personal stuff and just focused on Nate's engineering skills on backpeddling:

1. I will test the scratching with a freshly presseved piraya soon thats in the freezer 
2. I will try tonight to test with my own piranha teeth, I have a Cariba jaw and a forozen Piraya to try it with.

3.I am looking for my Cariba jaw that I had, I cannot find it, I would prefer to use if first before having to mess with my frozen piraya, I would like to have it Taxidermied some day. Give my a chance to find the teeth.

4.I know they can, whether I can prove it or not, some of the scratches have what I call twins that are close together that can only be made by something held together in a line, like a row of teeth, there are soo many scratches its not funny, if I run a finernail along them it catches, they are that deep, no rocks are gonna do that, I will wait until I can find the cariba jaw, then do it.

the proof is from the link Mike found the hardness is pretty much the same so thats proof enough, whether Frank can do it or not matters not,

but as I promised one of these days once I can find my teeth (lost in my closet most likely) I will give you all proof.

5. Oh know, I am soo frightened, but truthfully that was not my real intention, I was honeslty wrong about the Natt max size and so I admited it, as I will when I am proven wrong beyond a reasonable doubt to myself, I will guarantee you are wrong on this matter Frank

Xenon actually it does prove it, materials close to hardness can scratch and wear eachother if there is enough pressure or force. Trust me its an engineering matter, nothing Frank would know about. If you saw the scratches you would know for yourself teeth of my cariba made them.

6. if somebody would like to donate a fairly fresh cariba jaw I would be happy to give proof,

fairly fresh = less than a year since it was disected.

Cool, a number 7: Id like to add one note to this, I did use a piece of gravel from the tank and it can indeed scratch the glass, so that does explain some of the low level scratches, but how do you propose gravel is getting up to 14" above the rest of the substrate and scratching the glass? Somebody said the fish could carry it in their mouths and do it, that a far fetch .


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

and.....................


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 10 2003, 10:26 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> and.....................


 Self-explanatory above. Just waiting to see how long it takes you to come back full-circle.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I am not the only one that backpeddels FRANK, you seam to be quite good at it yourself

you say you will post those saved topics in your forum, then I mention that quote I am gonna make about you and suddenly you only post the parts that sound good to you, and not where you look stupid.

I posted that you told me wimples are similar to Rhoms in temperment and you asked where did I say that? trying to say you didnt say it, then I qouted you

then pedro posts pics of the unidentified fish and I say they look like what is being sold by Ron as Maculatus, and you are the one who told him and Clay that awhile ago, and now you contend that you need to see specimens to tell what they are

I was emailed today by somebody who provided other examples but I will omit those because I dont have 1st hand experience with the matter


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 10 2003, 10:30 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I am not the only one that backpeddels FRANK, you seam to be quite good at it yourself
> 
> ...


 And what exactly does this have to do with pirana teeth scratching glass?



> and I say they look like what is being sold by Ron as Maculatus, and you are the one who told him and Clay that awhile ago, and now you contend that you need to see specimens to tell what they are


 Umm, Nate you are not privy to my discussion with Ron on why HE WANTS ME to check this fish. Again you are grandstanding. As for S. maculatus don't even know where you are going with it. S. maculatus was described by Michel Jegu as a revisited specimen. When I did the research of looking through historical documents and discovered that there was some question of this fishes validity, I immediately brought it to light but with reservations on whether or not Jegu was correct. All you are going by is heresay and 3rd and 4th hand information. You really need to get your facts straight there Nate.


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

Sir Nathan XXI said:


> Id like to add one note to this, I did use a piece of gravel from the tank and it can indeed scratch the glass, so that does explain some of the low level scratches, but how do you propose gravel is getting up to 14" above the rest of the substrate and scratching the glass? Somebody said the fish could carry it in their mouths and do it, that a far fetch


 Do you use a magnetic cleaner/scrubber? Take it and set it on your gravel.
Then see if any of the rocks are stuck to the magnet. meaning that there is metal in some of the rocks. I have noticed this with mine picking up the magnetized rocks and scratching the glass.

meaning that there is


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## Hannibal (Dec 2, 2002)

Neoplasia said:


> maybe if you went to one of the best engineering schools I'd give it more consideration, but seeing how little you actually absorb in other matters you designing anything is a scary prospect.


 all jokes aside you can talk abotu Nate is a personal way however u want but dont start in on the school. I go to the 2nd largest school in the nation and it is public at that. We have the ONLY acredited welding engineering program in AMerica. SO keep your comments to Nate but dont try and put down the degree I am working towards. check the rankings

http://www.infozee.com/indiatimes/channels...op-rankings.htm

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rank...grank_brief.php


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

Is there a possibility that tap water containing Fluoride in conjunction with other minerals in the tap water cause differences in hardness of piranhas teeth?
If possible;
a. The piranha raised in "tap water" may possibly have harder teeth than those that are wild caught.
b. Other minerals in the "tap water" might cause this effect to vary from area to area depending on water make up.

or ,maybe not.
just an idea.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted: Apr 10 2003, 05:42 PM
> 
> just for your info, OSU is in the top 20 Engineering schools


 The link that Hannibal posted says 22, so you are not in the top 20 at least not in that list.



> I go to the 2nd largest school in the nation and it is public at that. We have the ONLY acredited welding engineering program in AMerica. SO keep your comments to Nate but dont try and put down the degree I am working towards.


 Completely agree Hannibal. I don't doubt that Nate can be intelligent when he wants to and probably is competent in his field of study. Of course _ field of study and competent_ are the key words.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> winkyee Posted on Apr 10 2003, 11:16 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Is there a possibility that tap water containing Fluoride in conjunction with other minerals in the tap water cause differences in hardness of piranhas teeth?
> If possible;
> ...


 Floride would actually harden teeth, but would make no difference. The key thing here is in order for that scratch to be even be a consideration, that cariba would have to literally ride its mouth wide open, dislocate its lower jaw while facing the glass head on with its teeth tips touching the glass. Impossible because the teeth curve inward. Even side to glass the lips would shield the teeth and the teeth are tightly fitted like a saw blade. There is nothing in its placement that would allow it to scratch. But Nate already stated I am wrong, so what do I know LOL.


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## Hannibal (Dec 2, 2002)

Frank you cant say that. Those are overall ranking. Like I said we have the only acredited welding engineering degree in the US. Why arent we #1 then????? Those rankings are overall. There are numerous disciplines of engineering: Civil, computer, electrical, mechanical, industrial, chemical... the list goes on. OSU is ranked inthe top 20 in certain disciplines. I do not have the numbers for you, but do you understand what I am saying. those rankings are for overall engineering program at a school, not a specific discipline


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

gotcha, my apologies. Here are some photos of pirana tooth (lower jaw) placement against a sheet of plexiglass. Sorry for the quality, but I'm sure you will get the general idea. I do plan to take some with a few dead specimens.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Next one tilted, teeth tip still not touching plexiglass.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Two more views this time complete specimen. Try and see if you tell where the teeth are in relation to that plexiglass. You will note (hopefully) the lower jaw obstucts those teeth from touching the plexiglass.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

The photo posting got a bit screwed up, but I think most of you get the general idea of the physical impossibility. BTW, the upper jaw comes no where close.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

usa today had OSU ranked 14th for mechanical engineerin I believe, it was either me, or the whole engineering dept


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> usa today had OSU ranked 14th for mechanical engineerin I believe, it was either me, or the whole engineering dept


. I seriously doubt Nate they would rate just you.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > usa today had OSU ranked 14th for mechanical engineerin I believe, it was either me, or the whole engineering dept
> 
> 
> . I seriously doubt Nate they would rate just you.


 me = mechanical engineering


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## cfr3 (Feb 20, 2003)

This is really a simple issue. One material can only scratch another material if it is harder than the other material. This is the only thing that matters, not the shape or size of the object. The proof for this statement is you can apply all the force in in the world on a piece of glass with the sharpest point possible and drag it on a diamond surface and you would never produce a scratch. You would only shatter (or deform) the softer material. The data that Mike found is very interesting. I am sure that the variability throughout the range of substances that constitute glass and teeth is large enough that you can't say for certain that the piranha teeth will or won't scratch a particular glass. You really will have to determine the hardness for each specific material, not just a generalization for a material. As stated earlier, there are only 2 ways to prove this absolutely. Nate must either scratch his glass with a piranha tooth, or calculate the hardness values of the two substances. Until either of those things are done, nobody can say for sure what happened in the tank. However, I would like to point out that since the two substance are so close in hardness, it would probably take more force than that produced by a glancing blow by a darting piranha.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 10 2003, 10:30 PM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > I am not the only one that backpeddels FRANK, you seam to be quite good at it yourself
> >
> ...


 of course I dont know why you are looking at the fish, Ron never told me anything nor did I ask,

I am talking about when these fish first came into the country and Clay worked with you and he posted that it was decided they were Maculatus,

dont ridicule me for backpeddling when you do it too, was the point of that


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 10 2003, 11:55 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> QUOTE (hastatus @ Apr 10 2003, 06:54 PM)
> QUOTE
> ...


 Glad to see you worked your way out of that one.



> cfr3 Posted on Apr 10 2003, 11:56 PM


 Agreed, but also the physical position of those teeth should also be taken into consideration. Nate has not proven the teeth are positioned any differently than what I have just demonstrated via the photos for those fish to make contact with the glass.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 10 2003, 11:55 PM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > QUOTE (hastatus @ Apr 10 2003, 06:54 PM)
> > QUOTE
> ...


 no, you just couldnt comprehend that, not me working anything out


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 10 2003, 11:58 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> QUOTE (hastatus @ Apr 10 2003, 05:35 PM)
> QUOTE
> ...





> of course I dont know why you are looking at the fish, Ron never told me anything nor did I ask,


 Then you are indeed clueless on what is actually being said about Ron's fish and possible Pedro's.



> I am talking about when these fish first came into the country and Clay worked with you and he posted that it was decided they were Maculatus,


 Excuse me Nate, S. maculatus would not have been known by hobbyists if I did not post the information and release to the general public. Yes, Clay provided a specimen photo that appeared to be S. maculatus. Nothing has changed. The fish can still be called that.

But like I said above you have no idea what you are talking about and you are taking 3rd and 4th hand information and using it as fact to instigate something. Sorry, but won't work cause you are not in the loop of knowledge.



> dont ridicule me for backpeddling when you do it too, was the point of that


. Nate even if it were possible to get you to comprehend this much, I doubt you would even understand what Ron and I were discussing. I'm going to ask Clay to reply to this, since you are tossing his name around. I'd like to get his direct input on what he understands about what "I" told him and others. So keep your panties unbunched until he has replied.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 11 2003, 12:01 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> QUOTE (hastatus @ Apr 10 2003, 06:59 PM)
> QUOTE
> ...


 anybody get that?








:biggrin:


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## cfr3 (Feb 20, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 10 2003, 11:55 PM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > QUOTE (hastatus @ Apr 10 2003, 06:54 PM)
> > QUOTE
> ...


 It seems to me that the point of this thread was so that Nate could make sure that everyone knows that he has some bad ass p's that are so vicious they attack the glass. My perception from having read this thread is that Nate is not going to listen to any arguments because he is in fact a MechE at a good school. For everyone else that isn't Nate, let it go, he will not ever produce evidence and will keep stating things that nobody but him can validate/refute.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

All I knew was that when Clay was selling fish on p-fish, he got in what he first called ruby red spilos. later he posted talking to you and that they were Maculatus, I will find a link to it unless the have deleted the post, I am not worried about what you and pedro and ron are working on now, I am talking about 2 months maybe longer ago, read this and understand for once


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 11 2003, 12:11 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> All I knew was that when Clay was selling fish on p-fish, he got in what he first called ruby red spilos. later he posted talking to you and that they were Maculatus, I will find a link to it unless the have deleted the post, I am not worried about what you and pedro and ron are working on now, I am talking about 2 months maybe longer ago, read this and understand for once


 Yes? and what has changed?


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

were in for a marathon...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> thePACK Posted on Apr 11 2003, 12:14 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> were in for a marathon...


 Classic Nate, avoiding the pirana scratching glass issue, so lets talk about everything else but that LOL.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> cfr3 Posted on Apr 11 2003, 12:10 AM ...It seems to me that the point of this thread was so that Nate could make sure that everyone knows that he has some bad ass p's that are so vicious they attack the glass. My perception from having read this thread is that Nate is not going to listen to any arguments because he is in fact a MechE at a good school. For everyone else that isn't Nate, let it go, he will not ever produce evidence and will keep stating things that nobody but him can validate/refute.


See above post!


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

so what did you have for dinner, I had dominos pizza









Frank you are the one that changed the subject, not I


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Note position of teeth:


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## cfr3 (Feb 20, 2003)

I bet Nate is one of those people that asks a professor a question but then immediately gives the correct answer and asks if he is right. I hate these kind of people and personally think they need to be smacked. This is kind of like what Nate did with this topic. If Nate knows that the p's scratched his glass (which is what he has asserted this entire thread), he is just aqsking a question he already knows his answer too. The only purpose of this thread is for Nate to proclaim his greatness.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

cfr3 said:


> I bet Nate is one of those people that asks a professor a question but then immediately gives the correct answer and asks if he is right. I hate these kind of people and personally think they need to be smacked. This is kind of like what Nate did with this topic. If Nate knows that the p's scratched his glass (which is what he has asserted this entire thread), he is just aqsking a question he already knows his answer too. The only purpose of this thread is for Nate to proclaim his greatness.


 not really, I was just trying to find out what other possiblities there were

believe me I wouldnt go through this if I already had an answer


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Xenon actually it does prove it, materials close to hardness can scratch and wear eachother if there is enough pressure or force. Trust me its an engineering matter, nothing Frank would know about. If you saw the scratches you would know for yourself teeth of my cariba made them





> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 11 2003, 12:27 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> QUOTE (cfr3 @ Apr 10 2003, 07:25 PM)
> I bet Nate is one of those people that asks a professor a question but then immediately gives the correct answer and asks if he is right. I hate these kind of people and personally think they need to be smacked. This is kind of like what Nate did with this topic. If Nate knows that the p's scratched his glass (which is what he has asserted this entire thread), he is just aqsking a question he already knows his answer too. The only purpose of this thread is for Nate to proclaim his greatness.
> ...


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

cfr3 is one of my best friends and I can personally attest that this dude is a genius in chemistry as he got a chemical engineering degree from a VERY prestigious ivy league university and graduated with honors. cfr3 knows his sh*t.

I think this topic should be paused until Nate can "dig up" his piranha jaw for his test... even if he does, do we trust that he will give us the accurate results???

It wasnt the teeth Nate, just admit it.


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## Sir Nathan XXI (Jan 29, 2003)

I posted Mike that I test a piece of my gravel and it does make scratches, I just dont see how a scratch could be made 14" high, I dont use any type of scrapers, just a normal sponge, maybe once every other month and havent done so in a long time, I dont have much algea in my tank

I can see from Franks photos it shouldnt be possible, so I really doubt its teeth now with that evidence, however I dont see any other logical explaination for the high scratch


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Mike, recommend pinning the topic so it doesn't go away until Nate provides _his proof_ that the cariba does it.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 11 2003, 12:47 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I can see from Franks photos it shouldnt be possible, so I really doubt its teeth now with that evidence.


 You know Nate it is quite a shame because we went through this with sexual dimorphism in P. nattereri, S. ternetzi, now this thing with S. maculatus and now finally, the Pirana scratching glass. Each time you attempted to refute my statements and each time you have made yourself look bad. I'm here to teach about piranas not devote my time to proving you right about anything. Which is basically what you have asked each time contrary to the actual factual information.


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## WebHostExpert (Jan 16, 2003)

> I can see from Franks photos it shouldnt be possible, so I really doubt its teeth now with that evidence, however I dont see any other logical explaination for the high scratch


From reading this I would say that it is done and overwith. Nate not everything can be explained, But one thing you know for sure now it wasn't your fish.

MAD


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## nyquil (Mar 29, 2003)

does it really matter that much if the piranha scratched the glass or not? so its scratched, big f*cking deal, you cant do anything about it. whether its the piranha or not, what does it matter? its still scratched either way. i dont really know much about piranha anatomy and dentistry but i dont think its the teeth. but hey, im no marine biologist, its just an opinion from a simple hobbiest. no harm right? :smile:


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

I think this is done.

_closed_


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