# So, I Got A 40 Gal...



## Marshall1391

hi everyone, im knew to the forum, and even newer to piranha's! (i dont have any yet!)

just wanted to ask a few questions on them before i go buying them.

firstly, i have a 40 gal tank, im thinking 3 red bellies for the first few years of their lives, then upgrading the tank when they get bigger.

the tank is the jewel 40 gal with the internal filter set up. its set up for small tropical at the moment (tetra's guppy's scizzor tails etc.) but due to a heater failure they all died, that fault being rectified im looking at going for piranha now.

whats the best way to get this set up?
pebbels or sand?
live or plastic plants?
keep the bulb how it is or get a dimmer bulb? 
will the internal filter cut the mustard?

ive read that it needs some power kicking out to make a current which is fine as it does this already. and ive read that 3 will be an ok amount as they wont become too territorial with each other as 1 is cruel to the fish, 2 they fight and im worried any more than 3 and i dont have a big enough tank.

any help would be excellent. thanks!

Marshall


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## scent troll

hey marshal :welcome:
im not sure what kind of tank that is...but ok lets get started.
for red bellies i recommend gravel bottoms...very easy to clean and unlike sand it wont harm in tank filters. as far as plants i always recommend real with piranha (if you want plants) because as you might know piranha have a habit of nipping things and can accidentally ingest plastic bits of plastic. so try to stay with real plants. a good starter plant is anacharis because its literally a weed. you can clip it and replant it, float it and it doesnt need a lot of light.

basically theres not much you need worry about other then keeping a low stress environment. i find keeping dimmer lighting helps reds feel more at ease in open water.

anything you wanna ask, ask away. im sure other guys will add their 2 cents. good luck buddy

-mike


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## Marshall1391

so the size of the tank is not an issue at the moment? how long do you think until they will outgrow this tank?

going to be looking around getting info for about 2 weeks, then when im back in the uk in 2 weeks, im gonna get everything sorted for their new home.

ph balences? water treatments to use? feeding through their ages and sizes? water changes and cleaning?

ill also be moving house in a bout 2 years time, will this be overly stressful for them? wouldnt want to get them a nice size and looking amazing for them all to die as i move into a new place.

thanks mike

Marshall.


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## Da' Manster!

Marshall, all of those questions that you asked can be answered on this website on the various topics and headers...please take your time and read them...I strongly advise you to do some research before diving into piranha...First things first...Learn about the nitrogen cycle and how to make sure a tank is cycled before you add any fish, let alone piranha...secondly, I've done three reds and three cariba in a 55'er without problems over the years..they all got up to 7 - 8 inches before I sold them to members on here, MFK, and Keepers.

A 40 gallon tank, as long as they are juvies, 3 reds should be fine for at least several months...As a general rule of thumb, during the first year is the biggest growth spurt amongst piranhas...anywhere from 6 - 8 inches...then about a inch a year after that...ph balance should be anywhere from 6.0 - 7.0, temp around 78 - 82 degrees, and I've never used water treatments!..Waste of money, IMO.

As long as your tank is cycled, you shouldn't have any problems...after the tank is established, weekly water changes of about 20 - 30% is sufficient for piranha although some members tend to do a lot more...but then you risk a bacterial bloom and maybe a mini-cycle which is not good...that is the quick and skinny of it...once again, I strongly advise you go back and reasearch all of the info I've given you...Lots of material and wealth of knowledge on this website...Good luck and feel free to ask questions!..


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## Marshall1391

no worries about cycling, ive had the tank for a while now and know about the general care of tanks, it was mainly questions based on piranha as ive had fish my entire life and looked after a tank with my mother since i was about 4, just piranha are a new step for me and i look forwar to getting little Kyle, King and Fish in my tank!









as forgoing through all the pages on this forum, the internet connection out here is terrible and would proveimpossible to get the information in good time. im back in the UK in around 2 weeks which is when ill be setting up the tank, and lettingit cycle for around a week before adding they guys into the tank.

also, is there any chance of getting a cleaner in there such as a common plec without it getting annihilated as soon as they miss a feed?

thanks.

Marshall.


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## Da' Manster!

If the pleco is bigger than the piranha's, then you'll be alright...although there might be a chance that the pleco injures or harm the piranha...but if the pleco is smaller, he would most definitely get devoured...I've never had any plecos in my tanks...I just do my weekly water changes and make sure that you have ample filtration, and everything else should take care of itself!...


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## scent troll

i successfully kepy an adult pleco with adult reds (6 of them) for awhile before. but i wasnt foolish enough to keep it fo good. i moved him eventually for his own good. even with good feedings piranha often will 'nip' out of curiosity and of course the fish they nip will freak causing an automated response to nip and bite more...it happens all the time.

best keep piranha with piranha. all other tank mates can become feeders.

hey tho im happy to see youre getting into this itll be awesome! i never had issues with water quality. i dont understand the big stink with pH this and nitrates that. i find solid tank cleanings, great filtration and simple water treatments do just fine. i never stand at my tanks measuring and dipping and testing water. chlorine killer, good filtration, proper and well placed water changes...thats all you need. 
of course someones gonna bite my head off for saying that but comon you dont need a freakin chemistry lab to run a freshwater tank guys...have fun


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## Marshall1391

well, ive got a few weeks till im in the uk, if theres any more information you think i might need, please let me know, as i get it all set up and start cycling and adding fish, ill let you all know how it goes, along with pictures.

really looking forward to getting them as ive wanted to get some since i was about 12, unfortunatly my old dear thought i might have been a bit young for piranhas at this age but hey ho, its time now! haha

thanks for all the information guys, if you can think of anything that i should have asked but havn't, please pull me up and let me know, want the best life for these guys and again, thanks.

Marshall.


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## Da' Manster!

Ocellatus2000 said:


> i successfully kepy an adult pleco with adult reds (6 of them) for awhile before. but i wasnt foolish enough to keep it fo good. i moved him eventually for his own good. even with good feedings piranha often will 'nip' out of curiosity and of course the fish they nip will freak causing an automated response to nip and bite more...it happens all the time.
> 
> best keep piranha with piranha. all other tank mates can become feeders.
> 
> hey tho im happy to see youre getting into this itll be awesome! i never had issues with water quality. i dont understand the big stink with pH this and nitrates that. i find solid tank cleanings, great filtration and simple water treatments do just fine. i never stand at my tanks measuring and dipping and testing water. chlorine killer, good filtration, proper and well placed water changes...thats all you need.
> of course someones gonna bite my head off for saying that but comon you dont need a freakin chemistry lab to run a freshwater tank guys...have fun


I totally agree, Mike!..been sayin' the same thing for years!...once a tank is fully cycled and established, all you have to do is your weekly water changes and that will solve 99.9% of the problems!..







...problem is a lot of people get lazy in our hobby because they neglect their tank and that is when you have ammonia spikes, nitrate problems, etc!...It takes only a minute or two to do a 20 - 30% weekly water change...that's not asking too much to maintain an aquarium.


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## scent troll

you should be good to go marshall. just keep us updated on what youre doing. hope you have an easy time. above all enjoy the tank


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## Marshall1391

excellent, i have the water hoover thing that can drain a tank in about 2 minutes so ill use that for water changes, as for the water going in, i just need to get it up to temperature right? and no water treatments,

cant wait to get back now and start the work!

Marshall


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## scent troll

not sure what the water hoover thing is...just make sure you dont suck up gravel lol

adding water? yes get it to temp and treat with chlorine eliminator at least. never add straight tap water untreated into a fish tank. there are plenty of cheap pet shop treatments you can purchase.


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## Da' Manster!

I've always used straight water from the tap..IMO, chlorine eliminator are a waste of money...Honestly, I think it's a money making scam just like carbon isn't necessary in filtration...here again, I'm speaking from my own personal experience and I've said this over at Keepers numerous times as well..a steady and stable pH, steady temperature, and good water parameters across the board are what is important...


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## scent troll

thats why this place is great. although i swear by chlorine killer damans obviously ok without it. you cant put a value on peoples personal experience. i always figured its 3.99 for a bottle that lasts for 2-3 years...why not?

my brother in law actually keeps a 55 gallon tank filled with untreated water and lets it filter out and uses it to refill after tank cleans. not what i would personally do with 55 gallons but to each their own


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## Ægir

Depends on your location... some major cities dose far more than others. Or personally, I am on a well so phosphates and nitrates can be the problem.

If you let a container (5 gal bucket) of water sit out for 24-48 hours, odds are most of the chlorine will evaporate into the atmosphere. Your big issues are the more commonly used chloramines (which do not outgas) or chlorides. If you add an airstone, or agitate the water you can decrease the time... but still need a conditioner to neutralize things that wont evaporate.

Basically, if you dont have a nice RO/DI setup, and are on city water... I would use it, as things that dont evaporate can accumulate in your aquarium. IE water is evaporating and chlorides and chloramines are staying, you add more tap water and the problem compounds.


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## Marshall1391

well im in london so a chlorine treatment is definitely to be used!

think i have some at home anyways so thats not a drama.

one on the tank expansion in a few years, is a bigger tank harder to keep running or is it just a case of doubling everything?

thanks. 
Marshall


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## scent troll

actually the bigger the tank the easier it is to maintain it. smaller tanks get polluted fast and have less natural defenses and filtrations. bigger is always better. but as far as treating yes you usually treat liters or gallons. so just use recommended dosages


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## Marshall1391

excellent, and as for transfering the little guys, if the water peramiters are the same, would it still stress them out? as im guessing when it comes to it they're gonna have to be placed into a bucket of sorts, and for moving house, would this be too stressful for them and what could i do to ease the stress for the move?

thanks. Marshall.


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## scent troll

yes anytime you transfer a fish it will stress them out. just the act of being scoped out and transported. not much you can do for that but during the process covering the container keeping it dark will definitely minimize any stress

you shouldnt have any issues, most fish take transporting perfectly fine.


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## Marshall1391

gleaming... thanks guys...

think im just about there in getting them, just food for getting them to grow healthy and what i should be feeding that at what point in there life.

also if either of you are from the uk, if you could give me some sources on where to buy the food!


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## Ægir

Your best bet for food is ordering online if you dont know of any fish shops near by... I will check a few of the sites I have used to see if they ship there.

Grocery stores that have a seafood section are great, If you are polite or know someone you could have them save the trimmings from fish fillets etc. Or even restaurants that serve seafood or shrimp... 
My roommate is a prep cook / kitchen manager and he brings home stuff all the time, from trout, shrimp, salmon, halibut etc. as they would typically just throw it away.


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## scent troll

what he said ^^^^^^
a local gorcery store did just that for me. i happened to be related to a worker there who put me in touch with the seafood guy and my piranha lived on white fish and shrimp trimmings for free for a good while because of it. but even if you have to pay, a simple back of shrimp, white fish or most frozen foods at petshops will suit them just fine. remember to feed as diverse as you can.

if they are being picky, dont worry. some times it takes time for fish to accept new food. just make sure nothing is seasoned or marinated lol


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## Marshall1391

so, find someone who works in a food shop, befriend then and get them on side, then look a little strange when you ask for the left over fish parts to feed to the piranha, i like this idea... haha!

and wicked, theres a few in the area that i will check out before getting them, at a small size, things like blood worms, possibley brine shrimp? terrapin food with the dried up little things in there?

should i stay away from things like chicken, beef and lamb? always had a vision of cooking up a steak, but just before cutting a few slices off for them...? or is that me just going a bit mental?

Marshall.


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## Ægir

Red meats are a rare snack only, such as beefheart etc. I would stay away from chicken, and lamb should be for you! A mixed diet is best, so include a variety.

Any white fish fillets, or even squid, scallops, octopus, salmon (again, use sparingly and rinse heavily as it contains lots of fats), shrimp is a cheap and easy one and good for coloration. Pellets are also great, because when you are in a rush you can drop them in and not have to thaw and prep food.


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## Da' Manster!

Smelt, nightcrawlers, and silversides aren't bad options either...All the piranha's I've ever owned absolutely loved them!...Also they are inexpensive!..


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## Marshall1391

excellent, are these things sold fresh or? and is there any particular pellet you recommend?

Marshall.


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## Ægir

Yeah, fresh and frozen in some places...

I use Hikari Cichlid Gold pellets, in the red bag, large size pellets.


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## Marshall1391

holy hell there cheap as chips!

will grab some of those, and ill get a few bags of the other white fish and a few cheeky treats for them lie scallops and squid.

and this might be a super thick moment, but when you guys say shrimp, are they the same as prawns? haha

Marshall.


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## Ægir

yeah, or cocktail shrimp... tiger prawns are more expensive but same deal


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## Marshall1391

excellent, how about crab meats? just trying to get a massive spectrum of things i can feed them so i can keep it fresh everyday

Marshall.


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## Ægir

sure! have done it before


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## Marshall1391

excellent, well, im glad to say it, i feel ready! thanks for all your help guys, really going into this knowing just about all i needed to know, give it a few weeks, ill be back on here with pictures of kyle king and fish in there new home!

THANKS AGAIN!

Marshall


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## scent troll

anytime marshall. this is the place to be for help. never hesitate to read around the old posts and threads too. endless discussions. good luck my man


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## Marshall1391

Hi again, tanks set up, cycling, persmiters are fine and all in all, it looks f*cking wicked! Next week ill be going and picking the guys up after a lot more testing of the water.

Thanks for everything guys.

Marshall

Here's some shots of the tank so far.






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Here's some shots of the tank so far.






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## scent troll

AWESOMEEEE
hahahaha that croc skull is a nice touch 
tank looks amazing...cant wait to see it stocked


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## Marshall1391

Same here! Going to do tests on Friday and get them on the weekend, too excited at the moment, really can't wait! Haha

Marshall.


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## Da' Manster!

Nice setup, Marshall!...







....glad we could help out!....


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## Marshall1391

Ph, low 6.2, temp 27.1*c, the nitrite and nitrate levels are fine, no ammonia, getting close! Gonna go buy the guys today, but leave them in the store till the weekend, just in case they get sold, in which case I'd have to travel about 50 miles to pick them up, and I don't want to be doing this! So excited I can't handle it!! Haha

Marshall.


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## scent troll

^ lol thats awesome man. i can feel your excitement. update us with new pictures asap when you get em. 








good luck buddy


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## Marshall1391

They're here!!!!!! They're in the tank, in the dark calming themselves down!! Hha, went and picked them up, placed in a polystyrene box, got home opened the box, one was sideways... PANIC! Placed some water from the tank in there, they started livening up, put them in the tank and they sat on the bottom straight away and hiding in the plants,now long do you think I should wait till first feed? Got some prawn chunks to go in there, some hilarious gold cichlids pellets and I'm going out soon to grab some muscles and white fish.

S happy they're here!!!!!


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## Marshall1391

Here's klaus! One of my new pack!


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## scent troll

yesssss
glad to hear theyre finally here! keep it nice and dim for another day or so...as far as first feeding goes...whenever you see fit. you can feed them right now. this is actually one of the more common things new owners have problems with is GETTING them to eat. just introduce some food and if they eat GREAT...if not, remove it after a few hours and try again later. but trust me...eventually they will eat. no worries.


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## Marshall1391

You guys said you liked the croc skull, so here's klaus in his new favourite spot, and his battle wounds from travelling.







and wicked, they didn't eat first time, ill try again later with something else.

Keep finding myself just looking at them haha.

Marshall


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## scent troll

hahaha that croc skull is so proper in that tank!

yeah dont sweat it marshall. i dont think ive ever owned a fish, let alone a piranha that ate first day. in fact it took most of my piranhas the better part of a week to start eating reguarly. but they will. needless to say your weekends pretty booked up chillin tank side with a drink


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## Da' Manster!

^^^...exactly right...let them get acclimated to the tank and settled down!..







...just be patient my friend...that goes a long way in this hobby!..


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## Marshall1391

Morning of day 3, lights on! Gonna try feeding them some hikari cichlid gold today, see how I get on!

Placed the food in, they all dived for cover!! Haha


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## scent troll

i love how you have the substrate piled up like that. gives it a totally natural look. i wish i could do that with my cichlid tanks...but they would most likely just shovel it right back lol

the piranhas are looking stunningly good!


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## Da' Manster!

Love this setup as well!...not too bad, marshall!...


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## Marshall1391

Ok day 4, night time so day 4.5, still not eating, they've got the red in there bellies, there settling in, but still not eating, starting to get worried!

Got some more food, (what they where eating in the store) gonna try them on that tomorrow.

Am I being a worried parent? Starting to freak out slightly!

Marshall...


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## Da' Manster!

try smelt, silversides, or nightcrawlers...All of my piranhas went nuts on those food items!..Reds are pigs and really aren't too picky about what is offered to them!..if they don't accept those, do feeders!..


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## Marshall1391

Gonna go out and get a feeder, leave him in there and hopefully they go for him!

Marshall


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## Marshall1391

Feeders in there, time to play the waiting game, going to do a water change tomorrow, got the water sitting to get rid of the crap in the water, hopefully that helps!

Marshall.


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## Da' Manster!

Cool!..keep us updated!...the feeder should definitely get some activity and interest going!...







...Contrary to popular belief, it's not really that hard to get your fish back on non-live after offering them feeders...As soon as your piranha's recognize something as a food source you shouldn't have any problems!...


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## Marshall1391

Still didn't eat him, I think he might have been a bit big so, I'm going back out and grabbing smaller ones, done a water change, got another one set up for tomorrow as I did a test and the ammonia has seemed to spike, going to get a new filter soon too, getting an eheim 2222 only problem is cycling the filter, could I do this with the water I'm going to place in tomorrow or could I cycle it with the other filter still filtering?

Thanks.

Marshall...


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## Da' Manster!

Are you sure the tank was fully cycled before you put the reds in?...you shouldn't be having ammonia spikes if there is established BB (beneficial bacteria) or is there any kind of waste or uneaten food in your tank that you are not aware of?...could you also please post your water parameters?...then hopefully we can find an answer to see what exactly is wrong...









PS..also what kind of filtration are you running?...I'm thinking you don't enough filtration to support the bioload...









IMO, an eheim 2222 is not going to cut it...it only does 132 gph...I think we found out the problem...you don't have ample filtration...On a 40B, I would run two AC-70's!...







...that's 600 gph and 15 x's the turnover rate...


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## Marshall1391

Filtration is the built in one for jewel tanks, ill get up the ratings of it shortly,ill retake the parameters after this message, the two new feeders are in there, currently eating the small part of food that went in today, just ordered the eheim before sending this message, what I'm going to do with it though is use it to cycle the water that I'm going to use to water changes, that way the water changed water will be fine... Hopefully!

Ill look into the parameters now and find out what filter system the jewels have!

More interest into the smaller fish though, got klaus staring at them as they swim around.

Marshall.


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## Marshall1391

Ph 7.6 Ammonia 2.4 so on my chart that 0.05-0.08. 
Nitrite 0.3. Nitrate 10-20

I know the amonia is high, need to do a water change... How do I drop the nitrate and trites?

Marshall


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## Da' Manster!

just keep up with the water changes and everything else should take of itself, naturally...I still think that you don't have enough BB and that the tank wasn't cycled to have those kind of numbers...but it's fixable...you definitely need to upgrade the filtration though...once you do that and the WC's, the numbers should adjust accordingly...


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## Marshall1391

And I have the 600l power head on my tank, so that's 120 gal an hour... Plus looked for the ac70's and ere no longer sold in the uk... Need some help fast!

Marhsall


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## Da' Manster!

Marshall1391 said:


> And I have the 600l power head on my tank, so that's 120 gal an hour... Plus looked for the ac70's and ere no longer sold in the uk... Need some help fast!
> 
> Marhsall


Marshall,
Powerheads are really useless and irrelevant in this situation...but here is a safe and good rule of thumb for piranhas as it concerns filtration...try to get at least 2.5 x's or above the rated gallons of water volume that the filter can handle...for example, you have a 40 breeder...2.5 x 40 = 100...So get at least a filter that is made for 100 gallons..in this case, an AC-110 would be perfect for the 40 breeder, or two AC-70's...however, you can use any filter that you choose, it doesn't have to be AC's..those are just my personal preference because I've always had nothing but good luck with them...secondly, strive for at least 10 - 20x's turnover rate per hour!..piranhas are very messy eaters and they tend to poop a lot as well...using the same example, An AC-110 does 500 gph of filtration...500/40 = almost 12.5x's turnover rate per hour and each AC-70 does 300 gph, so that's 600/40 which is 15x's turnover rate per hour!...when it comes to piranha (both serra's and pygo's alike) its definitely better to have more than enough filtration then not enough at all!...


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## Marshall1391

Ok, so with the power head still pulling 110 gallons an hour (UK gallons) through the filter set up which has all the medias in there, aswell as the ehiem 2222 set up, it could hold out for a while as that will be kicking out about 240 gallons an hour, still low for the RBP'S but better than what I've got, then ill get the higher ones when the months up.

There being a lot more active from the last water change as it is, and I must say its pretty odd to see the feeders in the, swimming around with the rbp's out and active as they are, hopefully either tonight or tomorrow they'll get chomped and I can stop worrying so much,

As for the filtration, I'm on it, I'll be getting that sorted ASAP, 3 weeks at the most!

Ill keep you all posted, ill get the misses on here too, as I go back to Afghanistan Tuesday morning. She can get in touch with you guys through this page if anything goes wrong or if she needs to ask any questions.

Marshall.


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## Da' Manster!

That's what we are here for!...







...and thanks for serving your country!...


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## Marshall1391

That's what I'm here for









http://www.amazon.com/pet-supplies/dp/B004GJ244G What do we think??

YES! Bit of chasing going on, they et the point that the fish are food, not friends...


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## Da' Manster!

Is there any way possible you can get an Aquaclear 110?!..that would be the way to go!...and it's cheaper!..









http://www.amazon.com/AquaClear-110-Aquarium-Power-Filter/dp/B000260FV6


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## Marshall1391

Ill look into it! Thinking it might not go on the tank though, as mines a jewel, it has like a fake wood trim round the top, will look into this in the morning.

Cheers

Marhsall


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## Da' Manster!

I had two 40 breeders...one had an AC-110 and the other two AC-70's...both fit and worked very well!...







...I sold the AC-110 but kept the 70's!...


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## Marshall1391

Well, that's one of the feeders down... Must have been got during the night!!

Marshall


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## Da' Manster!

Well, that's good news and very encouraging!...


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## Marshall1391

That's both feeders gone!!! Retested the amonia, it's already halved, got another water change lined up, I'm thinking one tomorrow, one the day after then one every 2-3 days, then ill order up the ac110!!!! You have both been an absolute gem of information!!

Feels so happy now that they're eating!

THANK YOU!

Marshall


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## Da' Manster!

you're welcome Marshall and I'm glad to hear everything turned out good for you!...







...Always glad to help as well!...


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## Marshall1391

2 MUSCLES!!!!!

They took about 39 minutes to eat them but they still ate!!!!!


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## Da' Manster!

^^^...that's what I'm talking about!...


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## Marshall1391

and just to clear this up, they are pygo natts right? hope to f*ck they aint piraya! haha


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## Marshall1391

one more moment to pick your brain manster, it looks like the AC110 will be a pain in the arse to get my hands on, will more than likely take about a month to get here too, found a 2000l/h which is about 500g/h

take a look, see if its worth the money if you could please.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Generic-Aquarium-External-Filter-Sterilizer/dp/B00BMQGB2W/ref=sr_1_3?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1374529590&sr=1-3&keywords=external+filter+2000l%2Fh


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## Da' Manster!

go for it Marshall!..it's definitely ample filtration and will fit your needs...112 British pounds is the equivalent of $172 USD so it is on the pricey side...If you shop around you can probably find something cheaper...I just got done buying two AC - 70's for $80 USD!...


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## Marshall1391

nice! let the missus have a little hunt whilst i decided, she found onew for 35 english, which to me is about 55 american, cant argue there cna we! free delivery, if ordered today gets here by thursday which i think (time difference) is 2 days time... not too bad there!!

will be getting ordered right away!

on a side note, what sort of media's should i put in? also should i cycle it first or just add it to the tank with the current filter going for a while then take out my old filter?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aquarium-External-Fish-Tank-Filter-Pump-2000L-H-without-UV-Free-Filter-Media-/120797625547?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Fish&hash=item1c20197ccb

heres the link for the same filter with no uv in it (shouldnt really be needed as we should all have uv in the tank anyways!) for 69 british so about 115 american, just incase anyone wanted to order one who's looking through this page haha


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