# Sticky  Piranha Sedation



## Pat

After alot of thought I decided to share this. The pro's just seem to outweigh the cons.
DISCLAIMER:
Like people, a fish going under anesthetic has it's risks. You're responsible for your fishes outcome if you decide to do this.

I've shared this method with a few hobbiests. Canso's 17 1/2" rhom was sedated using this info I shared with him. He performed a small surgery to remove a parasite. He said he kind of panicked when the rhom went out. You might too. Don't worry about it he'll come to. By the way he measured his fish out of the tank at 17.5". I've done that with Titus and he's exactly 15". Anyway, I shared this method with the owner of Cichlid city here in Canada and he used it to ship his fish all over the place. In fact the guy who figured out the dosages is a biologist from peru who exports all over the world. This is what he uses. Personally I've sedated my fish a number of times. Once for surgery and the other times to move my 15" rhom out of the tank during transfers.

*Get your supplies*
First you can buy clove oil at pretty much any vitamin/herb shop. Even drug stores sell it. It usually comes in 8 ml bottles. If you can get bigger that's great.

Buy some Everclear alcohol. Or whatever brand of grain alcohol. It's 95%- 190 proof. Vodka works as well. It's used to *solubolize *the oil that's all. Has no effect on the fish.

*Heres how you mix the batch. *
Mix *10 parts alcohol to 1 part clove oil*. I imagine whatever you don't use of the mixture you can store it for later use.

*Now here's dosing amounts I use in different circumstances.*
*IMPORTANT- The doses mentioned are from the ALREADY mixed clove oil and Alcohol. Do not use the clove oil straight!
*If your intention is to:*
Take fish out by hand with no chance of being bitten (measurements, surgery's)
*1 ml/ gallon of water*

Knock fish out for shipping, say for half a day... no chance of flipping out in container
*.5 ml/ gallon of water*

To _*mellow*_ out for say 12 hours plus... 
*start small, say .2 ml/ gal water.*

*A little further on longer transfers... ie. A move.*
The best way is to dose a full *1 ml/gal*, wait 10 or so minutes... your fish will look like you killed it. Put him in the container...

If the shipping container has the same amount of dose as the water he came from, you can just add water that's *not* dosed and dilute his transport water. Wait and see how he responds. You could put him in undosed water theoretically but I would have at least 1/4 of the water dosed so he doesn't have any stress during the trip. It has it's benefits... NO STRESS.

You can dabble with dose amounts... just do not exceed *1ml/gal*. That's full knock out dose and if used for shipping it should only be used on big fish. Small fish just need to be mellowed out, not knocked out. In fact .5 ml/gal will knock a fish out. I just would be handling a big rhom at that dose . LOL

*Recovery *
When he does get back in a tank with fresh water and comes to... I'd let him recoup with the lights off and no traffic for 18-24 hrs. He will be groggy for a bit just leave him he'll come around. The longer he's under the longer he will take to come to.

*One more point...*
Don't worry about the length of time the fish is under. It's not a case of the fish absorbing more and more with the passing of time. It doesn't work that way. It's the ammonia that kills fish in shipping, not the sedation. So just a heads up on that.

*UPDATE: July 3, 2009*
I talked with Raul Yalan recently and he said he suggests not sedating for much more than 12 hours. He said some of the fish he shipped that were sedated over 15 hours had some bad side effects with clove oil. Under 12 hours he's never had a problem.

I'll share some pics of a few of my experiences.
ENJOY!

This was a surgery I did to remove some wicked fungus from this caribe
The Surgery Table LOL.








Fish sedated in bucket








Placed in surgery container containing dosed water








This is when I sold my fish to MikeC. I had to get him sedated for a two hour drive. Titus looks dead
















They're slippery. you may want to use a wet cloth for grip.








Mike flipped when he opened the container at our meeting place and saw what a 15" rhom looks like.








Here's a pic right after Mike put him in his new tank.








And.... walla! Next day pic.


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## RedneckR0nin

WICKED INFO AND THREAD PAT YOU DA MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Pat

RedneckR0nin said:


> WICKED INFO AND THREAD PAT YOU DA MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thanks buddy. Whatever a guy can do to help.


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## Murphy18

Awesome









Pin this mutha hucka


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## Sheppard

Great post Pat. Thanks so much for sharing this info. Iv'e read quite a bit on it when I was researching puffers before deciding on getting one. I guess the same method is used for clipping their teeth when they haven't been worn down properly.

Very informative and detailed. Thanks alot, hopefully I will have another monster one day and this will come in handy.


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## chomp chomp

Thanks again for sharing Pat!

This is very useful info and should be pinned.


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## Grosse Gurke

Nice Pat. Question....when you dosed the tank.....did you drain it...or does the clove oil dissipate over time? Also....is there any effect on the bacteria in the filters?

Pinned


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## massabsamurai

Awesome info!


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## Pat

Grosse Gurke said:


> Nice Pat. Question....when you dosed the tank.....did you drain it...or does the clove oil dissipate over time? Also....is there any effect on the bacteria in the filters?
> 
> Pinned


Pinned!!! WOW... thanks GG and the rest of you guys!

As for your question Jeff...
The oil will not dissipate over time. The water has to be discarded. So I just shut the filters off before I dose. Clove oil is used in holistic circles for it's anti-bacterial properties. Also used in dentistry... well... it used to be used more. It has an unmistakeable odor. You'll recognize it. It's used in some toothache meds.

If I'm putting the fish back in the tank and want to use some of the old water... I just siphon however much I want to save in rubbermaid containers prior to dosing. This also allows you to use less of the sedative as you will be treating less gallons of water.

WARNING...
Clove oil stinks. Don't rub your eyes or take a leak if it's on your hands. I haven't experienced the side effects from it being on my hands but at work one time I put biofreeze gel on a patient and didn't wash before I went and took a whiz... let's just say it's not like wearing silk underwear.


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## blbig50

Awesome Awesome Awesome info!

One question, does the size of the P make a difference?


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## Pat

blbig50 said:


> Awesome Awesome Awesome info!
> 
> One question, does the size of the P make a difference?


That's a great question.
I think so. I would not use much for smaller ones. I know the neons that were sedated one time never survived. They typically are very sensitive to parameter changes. I would start low. Typically if you can net a P you wont have to sedate too much. I would be cautious. Especially with fish like Mannie's that are known to be poor shippers.


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## Grosse Gurke

Pat said:


> If I'm putting the fish back in the tank and want to use some of the old water... I just siphon however much I want to save in rubbermaid containers prior to dosing. This also allows you to use less of the sedative as you will be treating less gallons of water.


That is a great point and one that people really need to understand. When I had to medicate my rhom in his 180....the meds were very expensive. So I drained the water down to 100 gallons and marked it with tape. That was about as low as I could go and he could still swim comfortably. Two things this did...I used less medication....and it was easy to calculate the 25% required daily water changes. I had to do this for two weeks...so I had two tape marks on the tank...the drain point at 75 gallons and the fill mark at 100 gallons. It made for quick accurate water changes and dosing. Another point is that a 180 gallon tank is only 180 gallons if it has no substrate...and filled to the brim. My tank had nothing in it....so by draining it to a point where I knew the exact gallons of water (less a little for the filter) which allowed me to do more accurate dosing...and save $ in meds.

Of course I pinned this Pat.....it is exactly what we talked about. Very informative and gives the proper warnings if people want to try it out. I figure we will leave this here for awhile...and then move it over to the illness forum and pin it there.


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## EZmoney

Great topic that is always discussed... pinworthy!


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## Alex 22

Some good info there. never thought i'd see a thread like this..cool


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## AKSkirmish

Well done writeup Pat-

Pat helped me years ago sedate my Big Pacu for a transfer-
I listened to his words and did not have a problem one......Everything worked,just like he said it would...


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## memento

F**king nice job, thanx !
And I hope you don't mind I just translated it and posted it on the Dutch site ? Of course I've mentioned that I've got it from this forum and that it's original text is yours


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## Pat

Lucien said:


> F**king nice job, thanx !
> And I hope you don't mind I just translated it and posted it on the Dutch site ? Of course I've mentioned that I've got it from this forum and that it's original text is yours


No problem man. You might want to insert my latest update. I inserted it in the original post.


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## memento

Pat said:


> F**king nice job, thanx !
> And I hope you don't mind I just translated it and posted it on the Dutch site ? Of course I've mentioned that I've got it from this forum and that it's original text is yours


No problem man. You might want to insert my latest update. I inserted it in the original post.
[/quote]

Thanx, I will update immediately. What kind of side effects are we talking about ?

Btw I must say I don't expect we will use the method very often in the Netherlands. Simply because 1) we don't have that much really big piranha's and 2) moving a fish all along the country only means a 4 hour drive


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## piranhovios

Awesome info! Thanks for sharing this special info!!!


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## Armand_caribe

Excellent info, some of the best i've seen.

An outsanding method to move fish, specially when talking about 10"+ pygos.

Thanks bro...


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## Pat

Lucien said:


> Thanx, I will update immediately. What kind of side effects are we talking about ?


Brain damage and scale burn.


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## BanditBrother

This is an awesome thread!!!! I have to move every 2/3 years with my job and the last time i tried to transport my fish I lost 2!!!! They were my last fish to date as i am currently overseas with the forces but some good info for when Iget my new shoal in the summer!!!! Gna have less chance of losses when I move again!!!!!


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## Johnny_Zanni

are these dosing's the same as you would use for an oscar?


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## Pat

Johnny_Zanni said:


> are these dosing's the same as you would use for an oscar?


I'd start low. Personally I wouldn't need to sedate an oscar because he won't amputate my fingers upon removing him. But if you decide to sedate to start low.


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## Johnny_Zanni

he is 12" so he is hard to move he hurts himself


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## redbellyman21

ok this is an odd question... I understand how to, and levels and the amount needed for big or small rhoms/fish. SO heres a question. Picture a LFS purchase. I obviously cant sedate him in tank at store, but I can have dosed water in the removed tank water. So a little stress from tank to container... now the sedation mix will be light, since I am planning on transporting him some 35 minutes from store. So he is feeling no pain and happy, HERES where my question comes. You now have a light or heavy sedated fish, but you are putting him in new tank. Acclimation will make him come to... but at the same time, we dont want any shocks. SO with the exception of ammonia and all those negatives that we will say just arent a factor since my tank clean and so are stores... how did you acclimate him...

I am going to be taking a 14" home and I want to get him out easy and painless.. I sedate take home.. what would you do to transfer... just set up phs and temperature about same? What did you do when you moved titus to new guys tank..?


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## Johnny_Zanni

you can drip acclimate into the container he is in but then he will come to in that.. other then that i think you just try to match and put it in


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## lcujol

I didnt realize u could do that to fish sweet info


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## CLUSTER ONE

lcujol said:


> I didnt realize u could do that to fish sweet info


You can also buy vet seditives. I know some puffer keepers use these to trim their puffers teeth.


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## Semper Fi

Pat said:


> After alot of thought I decided to share this. The pro's just seem to outweigh the cons.
> DISCLAIMER:
> Like people, a fish going under anesthetic has it's risks. You're responsible for your fishes outcome if you decide to do this.
> 
> I've shared this method with a few hobbiests. Canso's 17 1/2" rhom was sedated using this info I shared with him. He performed a small surgery to remove a parasite. He said he kind of panicked when the rhom went out. You might too. Don't worry about it he'll come to. By the way he measured his fish out of the tank at 17.5". I've done that with Titus and he's exactly 15". Anyway, I shared this method with the owner of Cichlid city here in Canada and he used it to ship his fish all over the place. In fact the guy who figured out the dosages is a biologist from peru who exports all over the world. This is what he uses. Personally I've sedated my fish a number of times. Once for surgery and the other times to move my 15" rhom out of the tank during transfers.
> 
> *Get your supplies*
> First you can buy clove oil at pretty much any vitamin/herb shop. Even drug stores sell it. It usually comes in 8 ml bottles. If you can get bigger that's great.
> 
> Buy some Everclear alcohol. Or whatever brand of grain alcohol. It's 95%- 190 proof. Vodka works as well. It's used to *solubolize *the oil that's all. Has no effect on the fish.
> 
> *Heres how you mix the batch. *
> Mix *10 parts alcohol to 1 part clove oil*. I imagine whatever you don't use of the mixture you can store it for later use.
> 
> *Now here's dosing amounts I use in different circumstances.*
> *IMPORTANT- The doses mentioned are from the ALREADY mixed clove oil and Alcohol. Do not use the clove oil straight!
> *If your intention is to:*
> Take fish out by hand with no chance of being bitten (measurements, surgery's)
> *1 ml/ gallon of water*
> 
> Knock fish out for shipping, say for half a day... no chance of flipping out in container
> *.5 ml/ gallon of water*
> 
> To _*mellow*_ out for say 12 hours plus...
> *start small, say .2 ml/ gal water.*
> 
> *A little further on longer transfers... ie. A move.*
> The best way is to dose a full *1 ml/gal*, wait 10 or so minutes... your fish will look like you killed it. Put him in the container...
> 
> If the shipping container has the same amount of dose as the water he came from, you can just add water that's *not* dosed and dilute his transport water. Wait and see how he responds. You could put him in undosed water theoretically but I would have at least 1/4 of the water dosed so he doesn't have any stress during the trip. It has it's benefits... NO STRESS.
> 
> You can dabble with dose amounts... just do not exceed *1ml/gal*. That's full knock out dose and if used for shipping it should only be used on big fish. Small fish just need to be mellowed out, not knocked out. In fact .5 ml/gal will knock a fish out. I just would be handling a big rhom at that dose . LOL
> 
> *Recovery *
> When he does get back in a tank with fresh water and comes to... I'd let him recoup with the lights off and no traffic for 18-24 hrs. He will be groggy for a bit just leave him he'll come around. The longer he's under the longer he will take to come to.
> 
> *One more point...*
> Don't worry about the length of time the fish is under. It's not a case of the fish absorbing more and more with the passing of time. It doesn't work that way. It's the ammonia that kills fish in shipping, not the sedation. So just a heads up on that.
> 
> *UPDATE: July 3, 2009*
> I talked with Raul Yalan recently and he said he suggests not sedating for much more than 12 hours. He said some of the fish he shipped that were sedated over 15 hours had some bad side effects with clove oil. Under 12 hours he's never had a problem.
> 
> I'll share some pics of a few of my experiences.
> ENJOY!
> 
> This was a surgery I did to remove some wicked fungus from this caribe
> The Surgery Table LOL.
> View attachment 181662
> 
> 
> Fish sedated in bucket
> View attachment 181668
> 
> 
> Placed in surgery container containing dosed water
> View attachment 181664
> 
> 
> This is when I sold my fish to MikeC. I had to get him sedated for a two hour drive. Titus looks dead
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 181669
> 
> 
> They're slippery. you may want to use a wet cloth for grip.
> View attachment 181670
> 
> 
> Father/son pic
> View attachment 181671
> 
> 
> Mike flipped when he opened the container at our meeting place and saw what a 15" rhom looks like.
> View attachment 181672
> 
> 
> Here's a pic right after Mike put him in his new tank.
> View attachment 181673
> 
> 
> And.... walla! Next day pic.
> View attachment 181674


That was great, and what a beautiful, huge P you have there !!!


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## Semper Fi

Pat said:


> After alot of thought I decided to share this. The pro's just seem to outweigh the cons.
> DISCLAIMER:
> Like people, a fish going under anesthetic has it's risks. You're responsible for your fishes outcome if you decide to do this.
> 
> I've shared this method with a few hobbiests. Canso's 17 1/2" rhom was sedated using this info I shared with him. He performed a small surgery to remove a parasite. He said he kind of panicked when the rhom went out. You might too. Don't worry about it he'll come to. By the way he measured his fish out of the tank at 17.5". I've done that with Titus and he's exactly 15". Anyway, I shared this method with the owner of Cichlid city here in Canada and he used it to ship his fish all over the place. In fact the guy who figured out the dosages is a biologist from peru who exports all over the world. This is what he uses. Personally I've sedated my fish a number of times. Once for surgery and the other times to move my 15" rhom out of the tank during transfers.
> 
> *Get your supplies*
> First you can buy clove oil at pretty much any vitamin/herb shop. Even drug stores sell it. It usually comes in 8 ml bottles. If you can get bigger that's great.
> 
> Buy some Everclear alcohol. Or whatever brand of grain alcohol. It's 95%- 190 proof. Vodka works as well. It's used to *solubolize *the oil that's all. Has no effect on the fish.
> 
> *Heres how you mix the batch. *
> Mix *10 parts alcohol to 1 part clove oil*. I imagine whatever you don't use of the mixture you can store it for later use.
> 
> *Now here's dosing amounts I use in different circumstances.*
> *IMPORTANT- The doses mentioned are from the ALREADY mixed clove oil and Alcohol. Do not use the clove oil straight!
> *If your intention is to:*
> Take fish out by hand with no chance of being bitten (measurements, surgery's)
> *1 ml/ gallon of water*
> 
> Knock fish out for shipping, say for half a day... no chance of flipping out in container
> *.5 ml/ gallon of water*
> 
> To _*mellow*_ out for say 12 hours plus...
> *start small, say .2 ml/ gal water.*
> 
> *A little further on longer transfers... ie. A move.*
> The best way is to dose a full *1 ml/gal*, wait 10 or so minutes... your fish will look like you killed it. Put him in the container...
> 
> If the shipping container has the same amount of dose as the water he came from, you can just add water that's *not* dosed and dilute his transport water. Wait and see how he responds. You could put him in undosed water theoretically but I would have at least 1/4 of the water dosed so he doesn't have any stress during the trip. It has it's benefits... NO STRESS.
> 
> You can dabble with dose amounts... just do not exceed *1ml/gal*. That's full knock out dose and if used for shipping it should only be used on big fish. Small fish just need to be mellowed out, not knocked out. In fact .5 ml/gal will knock a fish out. I just would be handling a big rhom at that dose . LOL
> 
> *Recovery *
> When he does get back in a tank with fresh water and comes to... I'd let him recoup with the lights off and no traffic for 18-24 hrs. He will be groggy for a bit just leave him he'll come around. The longer he's under the longer he will take to come to.
> 
> *One more point...*
> Don't worry about the length of time the fish is under. It's not a case of the fish absorbing more and more with the passing of time. It doesn't work that way. It's the ammonia that kills fish in shipping, not the sedation. So just a heads up on that.
> 
> *UPDATE: July 3, 2009*
> I talked with Raul Yalan recently and he said he suggests not sedating for much more than 12 hours. He said some of the fish he shipped that were sedated over 15 hours had some bad side effects with clove oil. Under 12 hours he's never had a problem.
> 
> I'll share some pics of a few of my experiences.
> ENJOY!
> 
> This was a surgery I did to remove some wicked fungus from this caribe
> The Surgery Table LOL.
> View attachment 181662
> 
> 
> Fish sedated in bucket
> View attachment 181668
> 
> 
> Placed in surgery container containing dosed water
> View attachment 181664
> 
> 
> This is when I sold my fish to MikeC. I had to get him sedated for a two hour drive. Titus looks dead
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 181669
> 
> 
> They're slippery. you may want to use a wet cloth for grip.
> View attachment 181670
> 
> 
> Father/son pic
> View attachment 181671
> 
> 
> Mike flipped when he opened the container at our meeting place and saw what a 15" rhom looks like.
> View attachment 181672
> 
> 
> Here's a pic right after Mike put him in his new tank.
> View attachment 181673
> 
> 
> And.... walla! Next day pic.
> View attachment 181674


That is one fish you DO NOT want to mess with !!!!


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## jamezgt

If I'm planning to sedate a 7" Rhombeus to attempt to operate on a Gill Curl condition - what kind of ratio do you recommend I use? I don't want a Rhombeus biting or wombling around the table when I'm operating


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## Xingu Rhom

I use Finquel MS-222 by Argent Labs. This is a great product with no side affects


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## Pat

Xingu Rhom said:


> I use Finquel MS-222 by Argent Labs. This is a great product with no side affects


That's the stuff most exporters use.


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## ranha-man

"Heres how you mix the batch. Mix 10 parts alcohol to 1 part clove oil. I imagine whatever you don't use of the mixture you can store it for later use."

By "10 parts alcohol to 1 part clove oil", you mean...?


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## memento

For surgery : 5-9 mg / l
For calming down : 1-5 mg / l

http://www3.carleton.ca/fecpl/pdfs/Clove%20Oil%20Aqua%20MS.pdf


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## ranha-man

"For surgery : 5-9 mg / l
For calming down : 1-5 mg / l"

I may sound stupid, but is that 5-9mg per 1mg?
and 1-5mg per 1mg?


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## memento

It's mg per litre.
So 5-9 mg for each litre aquariumwater the fish is in


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## FEEFA

ranha-man said:


> "Heres how you mix the batch. Mix 10 parts alcohol to 1 part clove oil. I imagine whatever you don't use of the mixture you can store it for later use."
> 
> By "10 parts alcohol to 1 part clove oil", you mean...?


Example; 1mg clove oil to 10mg alcohol, then from that mix you do your water to pre mix ratio.
As was said 1-5 mg of mixture to 1litre water for calming down and 5-9mg of mixture to 1 litre of water for surgery.
As mentioned by pat don't use the pure clove oil to water, these doses are based on alcohol oil mix and then water


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