# Is this "cruel" ?



## Drullexx (Oct 26, 2006)

Hi

I've got 5 RBP's.

I also have a tank of goldfish. The goldfish have gotten a little too large for their tank. The American Koi I had in that tank started trying to kill the smaller fish in there. Luckily I noticed right away and moved the hurt fish into a hospital tank. I took the koi, and tossed it in the piranha tank. (I feed them feeders every so often anyway). They ate him pretty quick, he lasted maybe 20 minutes. I honestly don't care, I never should have bought a Koi anyway, they grow so friggen fast.

(Yes I know goldfish aren't exactly the best food for piranhas, I don't normally feed them that).

It was either I find someone to take the Koi (it was like $5.99), flush it, or piranha tank it. I don't know anyone personally with a tank large enough that would have been able to keep it. My sister has a 10 gallon, but thats wayyyyy too small.

A friend of mine I've been learning from since I got my first fish said "your overwhelming cruelty to animals astounds me." Kind of irks me. I don't see a koi being fed to P's any different than someone going to Mcdonalds and chomping down on a cheeseburger. One animal still dies, to feed another.

The koi is dead, the red bellies are fed for a couple days. I'm happy.

What do you think?


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

Devil's advocate--do you ever see humans walk into McDonald's, order a live cow and munch on it before it dies?


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## itstheiceman (Oct 5, 2006)

ChilDawg said:


> Devil's advocate--do you ever see humans walk into McDonald's, order a live cow and munch on it before it dies?


ok so your saying that he should of killed the koi before he tossed it in then?....IMO its part of life...you ever see that vid with those wild p's that eat that stork?...its bad enough people are catching these fish so we can house them in environments that we like rather then what they like....not cruel at all man


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## flashover00 (Oct 19, 2006)

circle of life man....aside from the nutritional problem i say whatever works


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## cueball (May 24, 2005)

classic,,, feeders arnt good for piranhaz,,,,,


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## itstheiceman (Oct 5, 2006)

cueball said:


> classic,,, feeders arnt good for piranhaz,,,,,


no sh*t sherlock....he posts and says he knows its not good for them on a regular basis...i dont know why people cant learn to read about what people have to say, and then to make shitty remarks for a reply after you've read that he knows they're not the greatest nutritional value for his fish


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

itstheiceman said:


> Devil's advocate--do you ever see humans walk into McDonald's, order a live cow and munch on it before it dies?


ok so your saying that he should of killed the koi before he tossed it in then?....IMO its part of life...you ever see that vid with those wild p's that eat that stork?...its bad enough people are catching these fish so we can house them in environments that we like rather then what they like....not cruel at all man
[/quote]

Does this mean that you don't keep wild-caught fishes? And you find it cruel to do so? I'm thinking I get your point, but you've clouded the hell out of it.

And as for the devil's advocate thing, yes, that's why people find it cruel. But, let's pretend that I have no pre-conceived notions and the OP is arguing the case for this live feeding right now.

If he's going to use McDonald's as an example, he needs to be able to defend the fact that the koi was devoured alive.

He also needs to defend the fact that I would bet that well over 99% of the cows, et cetera, that were slaughtered to make McDonald's were not given to slaughterhouses only because their prior owners failed to do a bit of research into their requirements prior to buying them.


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## Kyle2154 (May 12, 2006)

itstheiceman said:


> classic,,, feeders arnt good for piranhaz,,,,,


no sh*t sherlock....he posts and says he knows its not good for them on a regular basis...i dont know why people cant learn to read about what people have to say, and then to make shitty remarks for a reply after you've read that he knows they're not the greatest nutritional value for his fish
[/quote]

No kidding, some moron looking for a free post, doesn't even take the time to read the paragraph before commenting.

Anyways you are fine man. There is no shame in feeding a feeder once in a while. I have heard where it takes butchers 4 hours worth of cutting in Ireland before an animal will expire (die). Gimmie a break, people need to get a life.


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

itstheiceman said:


> classic,,, feeders arnt good for piranhaz,,,,,


no sh*t sherlock....he posts and says he knows its not good for them on a regular basis...i dont know why people cant learn to read about what people have to say, and then to make shitty remarks for a reply after you've read that he knows they're not the greatest nutritional value for his fish
[/quote]

Um, if you're going to criticize people on their reading abilities, please go back to where the OP says "Yes I know goldfish aren't exactly the best food for piranhas"...to say that feeders aren't good for piranhas would actually take that statement and expand upon it, not just repeat it.

Koi are not goldfish, so even a statement that said "Koi are not good for piranhas" would not only not be parroting the original statement but also would be helpful to the learning processes of people who might otherwise think that Koi, as they are not goldfish, would be an acceptable alternative statement. And it is true as Koi, being cyprinids, have the same higher levels of thiaminase that make goldfish an unacceptable staple for a piranha's diet. I know they're not a staple of Drull's fish's diet, but I wanted to make that point for the benefit of others.


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## itstheiceman (Oct 5, 2006)

using the mcDonalds was a shitty example...its a circle of life...so technically then, its cruel for us to eat chicken, pork, steak, beef, all that sh*t....its for us to survive...feeding p's live fish is nature...its how they were born to react and kill...thats why they are predators...and since we removed them from they're habitat...its the least we can to once in a while to reinact home for them


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

I didn't initially use the McDonald's example--I'm just pointing out to the OP how his using it can be undermined. If we are to anthropomorphize these fishes, you're right, we'll miss out on how they live in the wild. (We'll also wind up feeding them vegan diets if PETA has their say, but that's because they see everything as cruelty to animals...)


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## Doktordet (Sep 22, 2006)

Nope. Not cruel at all. It is simply a case of "Fish ate fish". And for those wise guys out there who willl reply to this by saying something to the effect "Well, he put the koi into the piranha tank, so it makes it cruel.", all I can say to that is just read itstheiceman's post. It is replicating what these ps would have done in the wild. We go to great lengths to replicate conditions or environments in the wild, then youre trying to tell me that the act of providing feeders is not natural and cruel? Iceman has it right on the dot.


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## itstheiceman (Oct 5, 2006)

ChilDawg said:


> I didn't initially use the McDonald's example--I'm just pointing out to the OP how his using it can be undermined. If we are to anthropomorphize these fishes, you're right, we'll miss out on how they live in the wild. (We'll also wind up feeding them vegan diets if PETA has their say, but that's because they see everything as cruelty to animals...)


so technically this post is going right off topic...were going from was it creul to feed a shoal a koi (which i understand isnt a goldfish) to mcDonalds and human's eating food....i could agree koi shouldnt be fed to p's cus they're not "Feeders"....so case and point...its NOT creul to feed live food to your p's, AS STATED koi/goldfish should not be part of a regular p's diet...


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

Actually, technically, it's not, because I was debating a weak point that he made in his rationale.


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## itstheiceman (Oct 5, 2006)

ChilDawg said:


> Actually, technically, it's not, because I was debating a weak point that he made in his rationale.


well lets debate some more...you tell me what else you want to debate about that i havent proven...and we'll continue the debating :nod:


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

What have you "proven"? That what you feel to be correct feels correct to other people? Give me a break...

All right, seriously, here's how I really feel. I am a little queasy about live feedings and find them to be something that I would not recommend, but I understand the allure. I'm not entirely certain that this is a vital part of recreating the wild environment of Ps and I think that we're anthropomorphizing a little when we talk about how unfair it is to them to house them in a glass cage so we throw them a bone (or live flesh attached to bones).

If we're talking about fairness, how about fairness to the Koi who would've been in a better situation if it weren't for someone not doing their homework about Koi?

But do I think it's cruel? No more so than a lot of what passes for "euthanasia" among fishkeepers. If we are correct in thinking that fishes cannot truly feel pain, then it's not really that cruel at all, but will pass as such because of common perceptions. You will never be able to completely convince everyone (probably including your friend), so feel however you wish about it and thanks for an interesting discussion.


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## itstheiceman (Oct 5, 2006)

ChilDawg said:


> What have you "proven"? That what you feel to be correct feels correct to other people? Give me a break...
> 
> All right, seriously, here's how I really feel. I am a little queasy about live feedings and find them to be something that I would not recommend, but I understand the allure. I'm not entirely certain that this is a vital part of recreating the wild environment of Ps and I think that we're anthropomorphizing a little when we talk about how unfair it is to them to house them in a glass cage so we throw them a bone (or live flesh attached to bones).
> 
> ...


alright...im just helping stating that live feedings shouldnt be noticed as cruel to anyone...its just part of nature..its just a matter of trying to help out the fish with some natural habitat...


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## ChilDawg (Apr 30, 2006)

I think we're actually on the same team on this, Colin, but I do have to argue the other side so he knows what he's going to be up against by making the argument the way that he did. I figure it's in his best interests to know where others will be coming from!


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## itstheiceman (Oct 5, 2006)

ChilDawg said:


> I think we're actually on the same team on this, Colin, but I do have to argue the other side so he knows what he's going to be up against by making the argument the way that he did. I figure it's in his best interests to know where others will be coming from!


i agree...we could be a team..haha...your proving that feeders arnt good for him, im trying to say its not cruel to feed feeders (could be creul to feed koi cus they;re not feeders) so 100% agree'd


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## taylorhedrich (Mar 2, 2005)

_*Topic Moved to Feeding and Nutrition Forum*_


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## Kohan Bros. (Aug 24, 2004)

ChilDawg said:


> I didn't initially use the McDonald's example--I'm just pointing out to the OP how his using it can be undermined. If we are to anthropomorphize these fishes, you're right, we'll miss out on how they live in the wild. (We'll also wind up feeding them vegan diets if PETA has their say, but that's because they see everything as cruelty to animals...)


mcdonalds doesnt kill, it takes years upon years of overeating fast food to kill you just like u have to excesivly use feeders for them to harm/ kill your fish.

koi are feeders when used as feeders and hell any fish used to feed another fish is a feeder fish.


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## itstheiceman (Oct 5, 2006)

Kohan Bros. said:


> I didn't initially use the McDonald's example--I'm just pointing out to the OP how his using it can be undermined. If we are to anthropomorphize these fishes, you're right, we'll miss out on how they live in the wild. (We'll also wind up feeding them vegan diets if PETA has their say, but that's because they see everything as cruelty to animals...)


mcdonalds doesnt kill, it takes years upon years of overeating fast food to kill you just like u have to excesivly use feeders for them to harm/ kill your fish.

koi are feeders when used as feeders and hell any fish used to feed another fish is a feeder fish.
[/quote]

nicely said, but koi is like a show fish for other culture's...like in japan and what not these fish are prize possesions i guess you can say...upon some debating with mr.childawg over there he kind of proved to me that koi shouldnt be fed as feeders, and im getting that understanding now...feeders should be feeders...like ill say again tho, its not cruel its a part of nature, just like its us eating chicken, or beef or what not...NATURE


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

I wanna know where I can see that video of the piranhas devouring the stork!


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## itstheiceman (Oct 5, 2006)

Piranha_man said:


> I wanna know where I can see that video of the piranhas devouring the stork!


this should be it 




and its a bunch of caribe too


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

itstheiceman said:


> I wanna know where I can see that video of the piranhas devouring the stork!


this should be it 




and its a bunch of caribe too
[/quote]

I know I'm kinda derailing here, 
but that is one hell of a video!

Some of the best footage of natural piranha activity I've seen.
Thanks 'Ice.'


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## itstheiceman (Oct 5, 2006)

Piranha_man said:


> I wanna know where I can see that video of the piranhas devouring the stork!


this should be it 




and its a bunch of caribe too
[/quote]

I know I'm kinda derailing here, 
but that is one hell of a video!

Some of the best footage of natural piranha activity I've seen.
Thanks 'Ice.'
[/quote]

no problem...thats nature...so not cruel in my eyes either


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## Dawgz (Aug 18, 2005)

Ur gonna get two sides to this story no matter what crowd you tell this to.

I would be a hypocrit to tell you that what you did was absolutely wrong.
I had a Crayfish in with my exos and one day i found one exodon with a big gash on it sside, the next day it died, i knew it had to be the Crayfish cause none of the other exodons would have the power to do somthing like that.

I took the crayfish out and put it into my caribe tank where it got eatn in literally 2 seconds.

anyway, ur gonna get two stories to this, so its all boils down to what you think you should do with ur sh*t.

next time, as with me, research the animal ur going to buy.
in my case i shouldnt have baught the crayfish cause it was a hazzard to my exodons.


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## Piranha_man (Jan 29, 2005)

Dawgz said:


> Ur gonna get two sides to this story no matter what crowd you tell this to.
> 
> I would be a hypocrit to tell you that what you did was absolutely wrong.
> I had a Crayfish in with my exos and one day i found one exodon with a big gash on it sside, the next day it died, i knew it had to be the Crayfish cause none of the other exodons would have the power to do somthing like that.
> ...


Best reply so far in my opinion.


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## Dawgz (Aug 18, 2005)

Piranha_man said:


> Ur gonna get two sides to this story no matter what crowd you tell this to.
> 
> I would be a hypocrit to tell you that what you did was absolutely wrong.
> I had a Crayfish in with my exos and one day i found one exodon with a big gash on it sside, the next day it died, i knew it had to be the Crayfish cause none of the other exodons would have the power to do somthing like that.
> ...


Best reply so far in my opinion.:nod:








[/quote]

its all a part of Team Easy


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