# Fertilizers



## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

I have a 90gal that I want to put live plants in I don't want to use c02 at this time. My question is what types of ferts do i need and wheres a good place to buy from? The tank will have 1 spilo I have xp3 filter and a ac110. Also what type of plants do you recommend for low to medium light, I'm thinking like 1-1.5 wpg. And what I see are like 12,000k bulbs is this to much? Any help please.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

5500k to 10000k is your best bet

10-25ppm nitrate --.5-2ppm phosphate --potassium, micros (flourish comprehensive or tropica master grow) and Iron --these nutrients will create healthy, balanced tank at 1.5wpg of CF light


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

thanks for the reply, so whats the differance between a 10000k to 12000k bulb. and whats some good plants that spread but don't need to much light?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Here are lots of aquatic plants divided by light requirements.. have fun!!

some ppl would use a 12000k bulb.. but IMO I wont go any higher than 10000k --Harry can tell you the difference between them very well


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> some ppl would use a 12000k bulb.. but IMO I wont go any higher than 10000k --Harry can tell you the difference between them very well


Thank DiPpY for asking.
This is a bit difficult issue, because the color temperature (Kelvin scale) is the temperature of a black object, which emits light comparable to the light source measured. Some fluorescent bulbs of 10.000 Kelvin (like Philips Aquarelle) do look reddish which is not very logical as 10.000 K ought to be blueish.

Here is a link to a graphic presentation of the Kelvin scale:
Wikipedia

As you can immediately see, it only gives a hint. For example Marine White bulbs (of 14.000 K) that contain a lot of blue light are balanced to produce more or less white light.

An incandescent bulb has a color temperature of 2.700 K, a halogen bulb has 3.000 K. These are little reddish lights. A human eye sees Kelvins 5.000-9.300 as white. A kelvin value over 9.300 K begins to look blueish.

The truth is that blue light penetrates water column much better than red light. In fact at the depth of 5 feet or more, there is actually only blue light. This is the reason why green water plants can use blueish light (400-480 nm) better that reddish light (600-680 nm). Also red algae use only blue light. These algae are accustomed to living in deep waters.

Regards,


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

Thanks DiPpY eGgS for the link, exactally what I needed. In the link it has the classes, do you think I will be able to grow medium high light plants?

Thanks to harrykaa also for the explanation of the lights. The info you have provided has answered my question.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

> Thanks DiPpY eGgS for the link, exactally what I needed. In the link it has the classes, do you think I will be able to grow medium high light plants?


Medium high light plants will look and grow their best at around 2wpg of power compact lighting with reflectors.
This brings you right at the spot where you are going to have to start supplimenting with CO2, or carbon(excell)
Also, with the addition of any carbon source, the plants will be eating up much more ferts--about double what they will without a carbon source.

Hope that helped


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> Also, with the addition of any carbon source, the plants will be eating up much more ferts--about double what they will without a carbon source.


This is very true.
If you run out of carbon fertilization, like if you suddenly stop using excel, the algae will be clapping their dirty hands.

Regards,


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

thanks to the both of you. you have been a huge help. If i think of anything else while i'm doing this I will let you know. I'm still waiting for aquatraders to get in stock the lights i want so untill the do I can't do much.


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

I have another question I have seen some post about aqua trader and them selling junk lighting fixtures have you heard of this? And I have been looking all over the web looking at light set-ups and I am not sure which to buy I was looking at this light tell me what you think.

http://www.aquatraders.com/index.asp?PageA...WPROD&ProdID=22

If you where to buy a light set-up with only wanting around 1.5wpg what would you get? And last I see alot of bulbs that are low wattage but still say they are for live plants, my question is are the watts really that important or is it the kelvins I should be looking at?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

You could get a 96w bright kit  for your 90g. 6700k would do nice
Or you could go with a 2x55w bright kit


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

Is this what you use? And it looks like I have to make a housing for the fixture. Can I buy a basic flurescent fixture and put higher watt bulbs in it or is this bad for the fixture. Basically if the fixture says it takes 30 watts and I give it 60watts would this work or no.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

I have a 4x55w bright kit for my 75g

I use the ah supply housing.. I dont have tools and stuff to make my own.

if you scroll down the page with the 96w bright kit, you can see how someone gutted a normal aquarium light fixture, and replaced with the ahsupply kit

the kit comes with everything ready to go, all you have to do is wire it up--


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

how often does the light need to be replaced. do you recomend any other brands? or web sites.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

nswhite said:


> how often does the light need to be replaced. do you recomend any other brands? or web sites.


replace bulb every 12-14 months

Jebo, coralife.. there are a few others, but you need freshwater bulbs-5500k-10000k

It is not hard to wire up an ahsupply kit


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

Hey I have another question about ferts. First you said get phosphate--potassium, will Flourish Phosphorus work for both of these. and you said iron is that flourish iron that I get. I'm asking because I see all types of different flourish brands they got Flourish Iron, Flourish Potassium, Flourish Phosphorus which ones do I buy. I'm confused becuase of all the different kinds. Please help me out. I can find flourish comprehensive with Iron at lfs will this work for all?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

nswhite said:


> Hey I have another question about ferts. First you said get phosphate--potassium, will Flourish Phosphorus work for both of these. and you said iron is that flourish iron that I get. I'm asking because I see all types of different flourish brands they got Flourish Iron, Flourish Potassium, Flourish Phosphorus which ones do I buy. I'm confused becuase of all the different kinds. Please help me out. I can find flourish comprehensive with Iron at lfs will this work for all?


Flourish phosphorus is phosphate, but it is pricey.. gregwatson.com sells a super cheap mono potassium phosphate(.5-2ppm). It has potassium too. If used with the potassium nitrate(10-25ppm), you should be pretty good as far as potassium in your lower light tank. This stuff comes in 1lb packages, and will last a super long time. Very cheap. I mix mine 1 tablespoon to 250ml's distilled water.
As far as micro's, you might be good with just the Flourish comprehensive. If your plants look a bit pale, you can get Flourish iron, for a boost there. Plants suck up iron so fast, and they seem to love it.


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

Ok so get mono potassium phosphate(.5-2ppm) and potassium nitrate(10-25ppm), And you mix with distilled water and then just pour it into the tank? But will the potassium nitrate make my nitrate go up to fast? and how often do you think it needs to be dosed or is it just dependant on the tank? Then just get flourish comprehansive and should be good to go from there. Last question do you think I will be able to get grass to grow across the bottom of the tank with the low amount of wattage I'm using? Thanks for the help.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

nswhite said:


> Ok so get mono potassium phosphate(.5-2ppm) and potassium nitrate(10-25ppm), And you mix with distilled water and then just pour it into the tank? But will the potassium nitrate make my nitrate go up to fast? and how often do you think it needs to be dosed or is it just dependant on the tank? Then just get flourish comprehansive and should be good to go from there. Last question do you think I will be able to get grass to grow across the bottom of the tank with the low amount of wattage I'm using? Thanks for the help.


Well, I would say, pour some in, (5-10ml's or so) wait a while, then do a water param check. You want to hit the target ppm's. You will get to know your tank if you check your water params for a few weeks.. then you shouldn't need to do it anymore.
It goes up fast, yes, which is the point to adding it. Your plants will need the stuff, so it is fine. Yes, it is dependant on the tank, how much you will be adding over the course of a week.
Pygmy chain sword should work. Blyxa japonica should work too. Remember if your plants are looking pale, get Flourish iron, and add that as well.
Hope that helps


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

Ok thanks for all your help I would be lost without your help. Ok so this is what i'm going to buy.
-Background----Asain ambulia, amazon sword, giant hygro and green hyggro.
Middle-----Temple plant, Cryptocoryne walkeri, 
Front-----Dwarf sag, Cuban broad leaf chain, Pygmy crypt, Anubias nana, ans Narrow leaf nana.

Tell me what you think. All these plant are low to medium light plants . I am buying this Light Attached to the bottom of post.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Limnophila sessiliflora  - or Asian ambulia, is an undemanding plant from southeast Asia that is often sold as "Asian Marshweed" or Ambulia. In its natural habitat, it would be found along the shores of stagnant or flowing bodies of water. L. sessiliflora is the most common and readily available of the Limnophilas and is available through most of the major aquatic nurseries.

Limnophila sessiliflora is a hardy and adaptable plant, capable of withstanding a wide range of conditions (pH 5.5-8 and temps of 22-28C). Resembeling Cabomba, but with lower lighting demands, L. sessiliflora is a suitable and less demanding addition to many aquariums. Lower lighting (around 2 watts per gallon) and CO2 addition will produce more attractive and compact growth. Its main nutritional needs are good amounts of traces, especially iron supplementation, to keep this plant in good health. Higher lighting and lots of micronutrient supplementation cause this plant to develop reddish hues on the top.

I found this for you on that plant.. All the others seem to be fine for 2wpg. I think it is 2wpg? How big is your tank, and how many watts is the light? only buy bulbs in between 5000k and 10000k, and no actinic.
You have the fertilizers you need?


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

I'm going to be at 1.6 wpg. Its a 75gal tank with a triple tube 48" light that has 3 40watt bulbs in it. And no I do not have any of the ferts yet I just ordered the light today. You got any plants you want to sell that will work for me? If not its ok also I will probably get the ferts that you said to get earlier in the posts. I really appreciate all the help you have given me. I'm sure I will have lots more questions once the lights get in and I start planting.

Also one more thing do I need to get a phosphate test kit and a potassium test kit and can you think of any other test kit I will need.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

nswhite said:


> I'm going to be at 1.6 wpg. Its a 75gal tank with a triple tube 48" light that has 3 40watt bulbs in it. And no I do not have any of the ferts yet I just ordered the light today. You got any plants you want to sell that will work for me? If not its ok also I will probably get the ferts that you said to get earlier in the posts. I really appreciate all the help you have given me. I'm sure I will have lots more questions once the lights get in and I start planting.
> 
> Also one more thing do I need to get a phosphate test kit and a potassium test kit and can you think of any other test kit I will need.


dont worry about a potassium test kit, unless you find one cheap or something. Nitrate test kits are more important if you ask me.
As far as plants, you are going to have to wait because there are like 3-4ppl in front of you who want some. It's a shame no one is into serious high tech soft water plants.. I always have lots of those


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

> It's a shame no one is into serious high tech soft water plants..


I have a good nitrate test kit so I'm good there. And its all good about the plants I was just wondering, I'll probably just go buy them anyway.
Also whats this about high tech soft water plants what are these?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Here is a pic of my acidic/soft water tank


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> I'm going to be at 1.6 wpg. Its a 75gal tank with a triple tube 48" light that has 3 40watt bulbs in it. And no I do not have any of the ferts yet I just ordered the light today. You got any plants you want to sell that will work for me? If not its ok also I will probably get the ferts that you said to get earlier in the posts. I really appreciate all the help you have given me. I'm sure I will have lots more questions once the lights get in and I start planting.
> 
> Also one more thing do I need to get a phosphate test kit and a potassium test kit and can you think of any other test kit I will need.


dont worry about a potassium test kit, unless you find one cheap or something. Nitrate test kits are more important if you ask me.
As far as plants, you are going to have to wait because there are like 3-4ppl in front of you who want some.* It's a shame no one is into serious high tech soft water plants.. *I always have lots of those








[/quote]


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

^^ lol are you saying you want some of the hard to grow stuff??


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> ^^ lol are you saying you want some of the hard to grow stuff??


As soon as I balance out the tank I think I will want some of the cooler hard to grow plants (i didnt spend a sh*t ton on a high tech system to grow java moss







)


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

Well what does it take to grow a plants like that? Is that when you start going into co2 injection and stuff like that. or is it just specific water conditions. I really like that red plant in there I would love to have lots of red plants in my tank if it is possible. DO you know of any red plants that will grow at 1.6 wpg? Thanks agaion for all your help and please give me some more information on the soft water plants " the hard to grow stuff"


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

imo the "hard to grow stuff" needs the proper equiptment (read $$$) AND the right water chemistry. 
Pre r/o water I was running tanks with 7.8-8.0ph , GH @ 29 and a Kh @ 20 (VERY hard water) I was having problem growing plants period. When i went to r/o water I was able to regulate the water, now that i went high tech i can grow all the good stuff (once i get a grasp on the algae







)


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

nswhite said:


> Well what does it take to grow a plants like that? Is that when you start going into co2 injection and stuff like that. or is it just specific water conditions. I really like that red plant in there I would love to have lots of red plants in my tank if it is possible. DO you know of any red plants that will grow at 1.6 wpg? Thanks agaion for all your help and please give me some more information on the soft water plants " the hard to grow stuff"


Those plants, are all from areas where there are virtually no nutrients found in the water, but the bottom is mostly like peat. (rotting things, mostly plant material) So, the plants get most of their nutrients from what they are growing 'in'
The pH is very low, and the KH/GH is very low too...like blackwater regions. (no, blackwater extract won't help)

The tank needs a peat bottom of some sort. In my case, I'm using the ADA line of substrate(PowerSand, and AquaSoil Amazonia) But you could use the Amazonia with peat and mulm under it, or flora base, or any substrate with peat under it SHOULD work..

The main thing other than that is water. The water must be very acidic, and soft. pH 4.8-6.1-2. KH 2-3d, GH 6-8. IF you can achieve that, go for it! The plants are beautiful!
I should be putting up a few pics of that tank soon.. it is doing great right now.
Hope that helps


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

DiPpY eGgS, Well my first problem would be that my ph is at 8.0 and I cant get it to go down I tried getting peat granules and put them in a bag and then in the filter. But all it did was make the water brown but did nothing to the ph. How am I supposed to get the ph down? I'm not sure about the KH or the GH I will test them tonight when I get home.

Ex0dus, Can you control ph with R/O water? what is R/O water?


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

nswhite said:


> DiPpY eGgS, Well my first problem would be that my ph is at 8.0 and I cant get it to go down I tried getting peat granules and put them in a bag and then in the filter. But all it did was make the water brown but did nothing to the ph. How am I supposed to get the ph down? I'm not sure about the KH or the GH I will test them tonight when I get home.
> 
> Ex0dus, Can you control ph with R/O water? what is R/O water?


Oh yeah. Out of tap my water was 8.2 
After it goes through my r/o it is 6.2
I rebuild the water using baking soda and a product called equalibrium. 
Basically I can grow any plant I want because I can control my water chemistry to suit w/e I want. 
I actually now control my Ph with a Ph controller. I dial it down to 6.2 and let the controller do the rest.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

Splain me plez. How does the PH controler operate and adjust the PH on the fly? Is it thru the addition of CO2?


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> Splain me plez. How does the PH controler operate and adjust the PH on the fly? Is it thru the addition of CO2?


The more co2 in your tank, the lower your Ph will be. The controller "controls" the amount of co2 allowed in the tank. I set the dial to 6.2 and the ph will stay 6.2-6.4


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

How much money is this r/o unit you are talking about? I am very interested in this because my ph is 8.0. Can you think of anything else I can do to lower the ph?


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

:nod: ok. thats what I had assumed but wasen't sure. Still kinda new to the whole planted aquarium thing. and all those newfandangled dodads.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

nswhite said:


> How much money is this r/o unit you are talking about? I am very interested in this because my ph is 8.0. Can you think of anything else I can do to lower the ph?


I paid @ 250$ for my unit. If you have adequte water pressure you can buy some of the 100$ deals on ebay. Mine was alot more because im on well water and my water pressure is very low.


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

How big is your tank Ex0dus? And does it matter what size your tank is to the r/o unit. Meaning is there different r/o unit's to buy for large or small tanks or are they all the same? And what else does the r/o unit do to the water condition? Like does it change any other water Perimeters?


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

nswhite said:


> How big is your tank Ex0dus? And does it matter what size your tank is to the r/o unit. Meaning is there different r/o unit's to buy for large or small tanks or are they all the same? And what else does the r/o unit do to the water condition? Like does it change any other water Perimeters?


All my tanks get r/o water. I have a 50gpd membrane. There is a diffrence only in quality of the unit, quality of the membrane (better rejection rates), higher gph rates, etc. How big is your tank? I have 8 tanks, ranging in size from 135 all the way to 29gallons. They all get r/o water. If your seriously considering this, you can drop me a call anytime to discuss it in detail. 
R/o removes everything (96-99%pure water) from the water. You will have to rebuild it to suatain life.


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

Well at first I was told the tank was a 90gal but then I got out the tape measure and figured out it is 75gal. It holds one Elong. And a few neons here and there. Also I have regular city water so I'm sure the water pressure it high enough. I am very interested in this. I have spent lots of money thus far with getting the tank set-up from scratch, getting the lights ( which I just got friday), the piranha etc. So I would definitally like to learn more.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

Id be happy to answer any questions you have about it


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

So I surfed around on the web a little and found a couple r/o units like you said for about $100 on ebay was the cheapest. I could get one of the smallest ones and it will probably be fine like a 10 gpd right? Ok first question is you buy the r/o unit and is there any other parts that need to be purchased? and you said that you rebuild the water do I need to buy chemicals or bacteria to rebuild the water? If so how often do you use the chemical? and last question for now is there alot of regular maintanence required with keeping the r/o unit working. And does the r/o unit hook straight into the tank our does it just filter into some sort of container untill needed. Thanks for all the help.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

nswhite said:


> So I surfed around on the web a little and found a couple r/o units like you said for about $100 on ebay was the cheapest. I could get one of the smallest ones and it will probably be fine like a 10 gpd right? Ok first question is you buy the r/o unit and is there any other parts that need to be purchased? and you said that you rebuild the water do I need to buy chemicals or bacteria to rebuild the water? If so how often do you use the chemical? and last question for now is there alot of regular maintanence required with keeping the r/o unit working. And does the r/o unit hook straight into the tank our does it just filter into some sort of container untill needed. Thanks for all the help.


The only problem with a 10gpd membrane is its more than likely associated with a bare bones kit... meaning maybe 2 stage filtration. You want atleast 3 stage filtration, pref 4+. 
A 3 stage would be 2 caninsters and the r/o membrane.

You can buy all sorts of stuff for the r/o, depending how you plan to store, mix and deliver the water.
You can get auto shutoff valves, tubing, tds meters, etc, etc...

To rebuild the water I use a product by seachem (equalibrium) and good ole baking soda. Im my container I mix up @ 30gallons of water. I mix 1tablespoon equalibrium and 1.5 teaspoons of baking soda. This gives me a Gh @ 7 and a Kh @ 3-4 . You rebuild the water every time you produce some.

The only maintence is to replace the filters every 3-6 months and the membrance ever 6-12months. 
The above really all depends on how bad your water is. I replace my filters every 4-5 months and my membrance every 6-8months (i have horrible water)

You will need a container to store the water to mix it. For this i reccomend a 44gallon rubbermaid heavy duty garbage can. You will need a waterpump w. atleast a 6-8ft head height a heater and patience. The 1st 10 gallons of water you make will be thrown away due to the chemicals used to store the membrane.


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

Ya the kit I saw at the lfs was a single canister that hooked straight to the faucet. It was really cheap. So you are talking about 3 stage filtration, is each stage control a different part? I guess what I'm getting at is will the cheap r/0 units the ones that are 10gpd control the PH. Cause really thats all I need to lower. I still need to test my GH and KH, but I'm sure its ok. I live in colorado and we have really good water here, unless you are on well water in the mountains, the city I live in has their own water filtration system so I'm hoping the other readings will be ok. I will test in a couple hours when I get home and let you know.


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## Ex0dus (Jun 29, 2005)

nswhite said:


> Ya the kit I saw at the lfs was a single canister that hooked straight to the faucet. It was really cheap. So you are talking about 3 stage filtration, is each stage control a different part? I guess what I'm getting at is will the cheap r/0 units the ones that are 10gpd control the PH. Cause really thats all I need to lower. I still need to test my GH and KH, but I'm sure its ok. I live in colorado and we have really good water here, unless you are on well water in the mountains, the city I live in has their own water filtration system so I'm hoping the other readings will be ok. I will test in a couple hours when I get home and let you know.


You want a 3 stage. This way the membrane will last as long as it can. If you have a 2 stage you would have a 10 or so micron filter then the water would go directly to the membrane. A 3 stage will have a 10micron filter then a carbon block filter THEn the membrane. You can get a 50gpd 3-4 stage r/o unit with a good quality membrane for @ $75 and up.


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

Ok I tested my water last night and my PH 8.0, KH 7.0 and GH 1.0 so this is pretty good right? Do you think I could grow some of the hard stuff or some of those crazy red plants. I got all the pieces to put the light set-up together so tonight I am going to make the adaptors for my tops and hook-up the light maybe I can get some plants this week.


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## harrykaa (Jan 10, 2005)

nswhite said:


> Ok I tested my water last night and my PH 8.0, KH 7.0 and GH 1.0 so this is pretty good right? Do you think I could grow some of the hard stuff or some of those crazy red plants. I got all the pieces to put the light set-up together so tonight I am going to make the adaptors for my tops and hook-up the light maybe I can get some plants this week.


Well, pH 8.0 with a bicarbonate alkalinity of KH 7.0 may be a big problem for a lot of plants.
You see this KH 7.0 means a heavily buffered water and very constant pH reading of 8.0. This in turn means that carbon is mainly not in the form of carbon dioxide (CO2) there. It is mainly in the form of bicarbonate ions (HCO3) and a lot of plants are unable to use it.

With that water you would need pressurized carbon dioxide fertilization to add CO2, but also to take the pH a bit down. A unit with a pH regulator would be ideal.

Harry


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

harrykaa, if i use Flourish comprehensive wont that be a co2 substitute. And is there anything I can do to lower the kh besides r/o water?


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## nswhite (Mar 23, 2005)

bump


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