# Skeleton Preparation



## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

It's been discussed over here several times, but any advise on how to preserve a skeleton will be helpful.
I have a dead rhom of 28cm SL defrosting tonight and will try to preserve it's skeleton tomorrow.

Initially I intended to have it professionally macerated by the dept. Archeozoölogy over here at the Royal University of Groningen, but they strongly advised me nót to do that for it'll leave me with every bone disconnected from the others.
They advised me to use the same method their own fish preparator used - adding hot but not boiling water to it and carefully remove the flesh as it comes off.
I will set the waterboiler in the kitchen to 80 degrees Celsius (176F) to do that.

I'm not too sure however about the fins. I've seen some topics over here that left only a damaged skeleton without all the fins, and I hope to get a full, complete and undamaged skelton remaining.

I searched for trypsin as I read that in one of those topics, but can't find any over here in the Netherlands. I don't know what the Dutch name or trademark for it will be, or even if it's available.

So all advise is welcome... how do I remove the flesh, will tweezers and a small brush be good for that ?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> It's been discussed over here several times, but any advise on how to preserve a skeleton will be helpful.
> I have a dead rhom of 28cm SL defrosting tonight and will try to preserve it's skeleton tomorrow.
> 
> Initially I intended to have it professionally macerated by the dept. Archeozoölogy over here at the Royal University of Groningen, but they strongly advised me nót to do that for it'll leave me with every bone disconnected from the others.
> ...


Doing articulated skeletons is not easy as might have already figured out. And the small bones will be the hardest obstacle. No advice except good luck. Been there done it.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Yeah I figured that out and hoped a professional maceration would work. But ending up with a pile of loose bones without knowing which was where, is going to be impossible. With dermestid beetles I fear they will damage the smaller bones and finrays.

So the old "steaming off" may indeed be the best option... luck and patience I will definately need I guess !


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Sorry about the link

If I understand what you are looking for I believe you should contact the OP in the link-He knows his stuff very well when it comes to this...

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/member.php?3876-necrocanis

Wont let me link to the thread on skeletons for some reason.....
Is this a new feature or something here?

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?135619-Skeletal-Creations


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> Yeah I figured that out and hoped a professional maceration would work. But ending up with a pile of loose bones without knowing which was where, is going to be impossible. With dermestid beetles I fear they will damage the smaller bones and finrays.
> 
> So the old "steaming off" may indeed be the best option... luck and patience I will definately need I guess !


The beetles are only after meat. Negligent damage to small bones. But it would be a good lesson for you on fish anatomy. I have the skeletal information on characins. But hate to spend all day scanning for you.


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## jp80911 (Apr 3, 2008)

I have read that you steam or boil to make the flesh easy to remove then you have to use a fine strainer to collect as many bones as possible if not all the bones, especially the small ones.
found couple links online after a quick search, not sure if they will be helpful.
http://www.taxidermy.net/forums/FishTaxiArticles/01/b/01D64A8744.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_display_models_of_skeleton_of_a_fish

probably better to practice on some whole fish before you start with the rhom since you only get one shot. maybe get some whole tilapia and see how well you can do it.

see if you can find good quality pictures of a rhom's skeleton so you know which bone goes to where, etc.
I only have pics of pygocentrus skeleton so not sure if that'll be any help, but if you want them let me know and I'll send them to you.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Check Ivan site: http://www.aquatic-experts.com/Serrasalmus_rhombeus.html

He has instructions and photos of skeletons.


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## AKSkirmish (Jun 24, 2005)

Got it finally
Check second link in my post.....


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks for the links and info guys









I'll see how it works out and will start with the rhom, even though it is a "one shot" chance. Simple reason for that - it is the only one I allready have carefully selected pictures of to guide me through the process of glueing loose bones back together.

And you're right Frank, it'll be a good lesson in the anatomy, even when I completely mess it up.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> Thanks for the links and info guys
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You learn to walk by the first step and following down. Take your time, don't rush things and don't panic


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

I could as well have done the maceration, so far I have the caudal rays all seperated, the scutes in 4 parts that probably will all get seperated as well, some dorsal rays and it looks like the supraneurals are about to fall off as well.
And holy cow, éverything smells like boiled fish in here









What glue can best be used for trying to reassemble loose bones ?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> I could as well have done the maceration, so far I have the caudal rays all seperated, the scutes in 4 parts that probably will all get seperated as well, some dorsal rays and it looks like the supraneurals are about to fall off as well.
> And holy cow, éverything smells like boiled fish in here
> 
> 
> ...


I would soak your mess in bleach overnight. Allow to air dry. Then use super glue. Use a tooth pick to put glue in parts. Use rubber gloves if you have them. Prevent smudging or oil from fingers.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Time out right now, warming water for a fourth waterbath to soak and using the time for a beer and a smoke









Most flesh is off, intestines are out and after this next bath I hope the skull can be emptied. I'm wearing latex gloves at all times, always when I handle piranhas. Would hate to see all the mess on my camera or on one of the microscopes...
And by now the tweezers and the toothbrush I'm using (the one from my ex, I'll give it back tomorrow







) are so greasy you can't even hold them anymore.

What do you suggest for overnight, only bleach or also a little ammonia to degrease the bones ?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> Time out right now, warming water for a fourth waterbath to soak and using the time for a beer and a smoke
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Trying to kill yourself? Stick to bleach.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

hastatus said:


> Trying to kill yourself? Stick to bleach.


Guns aren't easy to get over here, so we have to think of other methods









But allright, the parts are all drying now :









I noticed the orbits are two seperate parts... is that normal, or did they just break ?
And if normal, are the joints in vertical position or horizontal ?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Separate. I could tell you the position. But you won't learn that way. Look at live specimen and figure it out


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

I positioned them vertically... easiest to glue and I figured that the black band transecting the orbit is the joint of it ?

Just glued the skull back together, hell of a puzzle








I have still two smaal parts of the gills left, absolutely no clue where they should be


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> I positioned them vertically... easiest to glue and I figured that the black band transecting the orbit is the joint of it ?
> 
> Just glued the skull back together, hell of a puzzle
> 
> ...


Look on opefe. Parts of a piranha. See if that's the small parts you are looking for.

If not I might send you exploded diagram.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

See if this helps you some. I normally don't even mess with the gills.























I should also add the following:

"Skull articulated and photographed by Steve Huskey, Ph.D."


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Could be the infraorbitals... 
Should there be an extra small, semi-circular bone in the circled area ?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

If you have questions...I bet Steve (Franks NatGeo guy) could help. When I sent him a bunch of dead fish for a new episode they are doing....I also sent him my large rhom so he could do this exact thing.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Here, not doing your homework for you.


















Grosse Gurke said:


> If you have questions...I bet Steve (Franks NatGeo guy) could help. When I sent him a bunch of dead fish for a new episode they are doing....I also sent him my large rhom so he could do this exact thing.


Steve is who I got the photos from. I didn't want to get into scanning an entire document (30 or so pages) of exploded views of characins.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Wise choice Jeff, saves you a lot of dirty work and puzzling to reconstruct everything









I liked doing it myself though for it is a great learning experience. First time ever i really have to think and look closely for where a bone belongs and how it's connected to others...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> Wise choice Jeff, saves you a lot of dirty work and puzzling to reconstruct everything
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 That's because jeff is a hobbyist not a wanna be scientist.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks Frank, that looks like it could help me figure things out









Edit : wanna be scientist ? I've been called a wanna be you before, so now you call yourself a scientist ?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> Thanks Frank, that looks like it could help me figure things out


You don't learn anything by not doing it yourself. That's what separates common hobbyists, those that keep piranhas in an aquarium only. To those that explore the mechanics of what makes it tick. It actually makes you an advanced aquartist or amateur ichthyologist.

It enhances the hobby not tears it down. That's what a few mongrels in fury don't get doubt ever will.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Lets hope more hobbyist that see this post will get more excited about their fish than just feeding it or just looking at it.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Or it just makes me an idiot stuck with a lot of bones









Doing it myself is indeed a good way to learn, but getting things óff, is always easier than getting them back in the correct positions.
I don't know if topics like this will make others enthousiast to have a look at the skeleton themselves. The practical fishkeeping and these things are completely different parts of the hobby I think.
But who knows


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> Or it just makes me an idiot stuck with a lot of bones
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It got you interested didn't it. Lmao


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## Smoke (Sep 8, 2010)

All this skeleton talk reminded me that I had a decayed juvenile S. Eigenmanni that I forgot about... I went over and looked for it, and most of it was still in-tact... there were a very few fine bones that were off, but I don't know if I want to try to piece those back in.

I might spray it first with glaze spray, then rinse off... to try to keep everything in-tact.


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## TRIG (Jun 1, 2011)

^yours looks like it still has meat on it.


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## Smoke (Sep 8, 2010)

Dead meat. Been dead for a while (months), never touched it until I was inspired by this thread. Should wash off very easily, but I don't want to start dropping bones and having to piece back each one together... (if I can avoid it).


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Just soak it in 80 degrees (Celsius) several times to make the flesh weak. You can easily remove it then with a soft toothbrush and a tweezers.
But some parts will come off in the process I'm afraid.

A last picture for today, with the supraneurals glued back in position :


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## Smoke (Sep 8, 2010)

I think you've just created a new puzzle game. All we need is dead fish.

Looking good memento.


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

very cool looking... want to try somthing like this myself... now i need a dead piranha


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Allright, I think I have to take back my words about probably nobody getting interested in the skeleton preparartion


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> Allright, I think I have to take back my words about probably nobody getting interested in the skeleton preparartion


Your a bit slow, but your getting it
















Nice work.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Well, thanks for calling me "slow"









Found out the two remaining skull parts were branchiostegal rays and another one the hypohyal. 
I only knew these terms from some descriptions and had looked up the positions before, but never realised they were actually seperate bone structures. So yeah, it's a learning experience








Comparing with a dried specimen and the drawing you posted were absolutely needed tools to figure it all out though...

Figured out the serrae alignment (the preanal spine gave away which ones were postpelvic) so glued those back as well.
Anyone wanting to try preparating one yourself, go for it ! It really is an experience I wouldn't want to have missed !


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

So far so good I think, only the caudal rays left to do


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## jp80911 (Apr 3, 2008)

looks great so far. a nice job well done.

post more close up pictures when you are done with it.


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## Piranha-Freak101 (Dec 8, 2010)

Smoke said:


> All this skeleton talk reminded me that I had a decayed juvenile S. Eigenmanni that I forgot about... I went over and looked for it, and most of it was still in-tact... there were a very few fine bones that were off, but I don't know if I want to try to piece those back in.
> 
> I might spray it first with glaze spray, then rinse off... to try to keep everything in-tact.
> 
> View attachment 203918


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

jp80911 said:


> looks great so far. a nice job well done.
> 
> post more close up pictures when you are done with it.


I'll try, but keep in mind this is just like some women... looking better from a distance than up close


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> looks great so far. a nice job well done.
> 
> post more close up pictures when you are done with it.


I'll try, but keep in mind this is just like some women... looking better from a distance than up close








[/quote]
Thanks. And I'm picking up wife from airport tonight.


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## Smoke (Sep 8, 2010)

UltraKardas said:


> All this skeleton talk reminded me that I had a decayed juvenile S. Eigenmanni that I forgot about... I went over and looked for it, and most of it was still in-tact... there were a very few fine bones that were off, but I don't know if I want to try to piece those back in.
> 
> I might spray it first with glaze spray, then rinse off... to try to keep everything in-tact.
> 
> View attachment 203918











[/quote]

It's actually odorless... This stuff isn't meant for the faint hearted


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Thanks Frank, that looks like it could help me figure things out


You don't learn anything by not doing it yourself. That's what separates common hobbyists, those that keep piranhas in an aquarium only. To those that explore the mechanics of what makes it tick. It actually makes you an advanced aquartist or amateur ichthyologist.

It enhances the hobby not tears it down. That's what a few mongrels in fury don't get doubt ever will.
[/quote]

Common hobbyist? Hang on a second....I had to dissect a frog in middle school and then boil it and put the bones back together....does that make me an amateur zoologist?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Grosse Gurke said:


> Thanks Frank, that looks like it could help me figure things out


You don't learn anything by not doing it yourself. That's what separates common hobbyists, those that keep piranhas in an aquarium only. To those that explore the mechanics of what makes it tick. It actually makes you an advanced aquartist or amateur ichthyologist.

It enhances the hobby not tears it down. That's what a few mongrels in fury don't get doubt ever will.
[/quote]

Common hobbyist? Hang on a second....I had to dissect a frog in middle school and then boil it and put the bones back together....*does that make me an amateur zoologist?*
[/quote]
No, it makes you either a freak or a butcher.









For those of you that want to be a freak or a butcher (no amateur ichthyologists need apply. Here is the bone structure for common tetra.

Brycon Bones.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

That's not for freaks, they need this one :


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Don't let Jeff get near that. He might want to date.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Finished the bastard









Documented with more pics over here.

Thanks to all who helped out


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## Smoke (Sep 8, 2010)

Nice Job!


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## jp80911 (Apr 3, 2008)

It looks great, well done Lucien.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Very nice for a first time who'd have guessed you were so talented... Congrats.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks, I'm pretty satisfied with the result for it being the first time.
Next time I'll make sure to filter the remains though, for I have lost too many rays...

For my own reference I tried to name the seperate parts, did I make any mistakes in it or are they correct like this ?


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## Smoke (Sep 8, 2010)

Now is it any easier to count the rings and figure out how old that beast was at that size?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> Thanks, I'm pretty satisfied with the result for it being the first time.
> Next time I'll make sure to filter the remains though, for I have lost too many rays...
> 
> For my own reference I tried to name the seperate parts, did I make any mistakes in it or are they correct like this ?
> ...


Near as I can tell from my Droid. Yes looks good. But you missed the "frontal".


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Smoke said:


> Near as I can tell from my Droid. Yes looks good. But you missed the "frontal".


That should be the part above the eyes right ? Between the supraorbital and the supraoccipital ?
Should that be another bone, or did I only miss the name ?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> Near as I can tell from my Droid. Yes looks good. But you missed the "frontal".


That should be the part above the eyes right ? Between the supraorbital and the supraoccipital ?
Should that be another bone, or did I only miss the name ?
[/quote]
Its the boney part just above the eyes.

Btw thanks for mention please add opefe in brackets after my name. .


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

hastatus said:


> Its the boney part just above the eyes.
> 
> Btw thanks for mention please add opefe in brackets after my name. .


Allright, I 'll add that name as well








And I'll add the OPEFE to the reference line


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> Its the boney part just above the eyes.
> 
> Btw thanks for mention please add opefe in brackets after my name. .


Allright, I 'll add that name as well








And I'll add the OPEFE to the reference line








[/quote]
After I'm long gone you'll be the reference site


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Most piranha sites have OPEFE links


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> Most piranha sites have OPEFE links


They do? I only know of 4 or 5. Don't internet surf anymore.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Enjoy. Compliments of Steve Huskey.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

That's the best one I've ever seen online together with these ones :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/biologis/

How did he manage to preserve the fins that well ?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> That's the best one I've ever seen online together with these ones :
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/biologis/
> 
> How did he manage to preserve the fins that well ?


I told you. They use dermisted beetles. Not sure where you got the idea they damage bone.


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## memento (Jun 3, 2009)

Allright, next time I'll give that a try








I wasn't sure if they would damage the smaller bones so I talked to some people who had used dermestid beetles before. They had only used it on smaller mammals like mice though, and none of them was sure if it would work on fish.
They never tried it.

So now I have the answer, next preparation will be with dermestid beetles


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

memento said:


> Allright, next time I'll give that a try
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You'll be a pro before you know it


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## Mr. Hannibal (Feb 21, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Enjoy. Compliments of Steve Huskey.
> 
> View attachment 204282


That's awesome... great job!


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