# Reds, Too Early To Breed?



## Sylar_92

So I woke up this morning and and I was about to feed my reds when I saw them acting funny. One was blowing the gravel around making a pit and the one next to it was gaurding it from my third piranha ( the one with the ripped lip) which I named scarface. The one that was blowing the gravel just sits over the pit now while the two others fight once in a while. I think my reds are still pretty young to breed but is it possible? I only have 3 reds left after I sold most of my shoal, but I kept the most aggressive/active and colourful ones for breeding purposes. My 3 reds are in a 45 long with black gravel and are 4" now. My reds are pretty black except their stomach which is bright red but I think their colour looks normal since I have them over black gravel. Do you guys think their preparing to breed? or are they just fooling around lol


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## hastatus

Sylar_92 said:


> So I woke up this morning and and I was about to feed my reds when I saw them acting funny. One was blowing the gravel around making a pit and the one next to it was gaurding it from my third piranha ( the one with the ripped lip) which I named scarface. The one that was blowing the gravel just sits over the pit now while the two others fight once in a while. I think my reds are still pretty young to breed but is it possible? I only have 3 reds left after I sold most of my shoal, but I kept the most aggressive/active and colourful ones for breeding purposes. My 3 reds are in a 45 long with black gravel and are 4" now. My reds are pretty black except their stomach which is bright red but I think their colour looks normal since I have them over black gravel. Do you guys think their preparing to breed? or are they just fooling around lol


4 in if your measurement is correct is still small, but within the realm of sexual maturity though 5.5-6 in is more common.


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## BRUNER247

Imo its more age than size & some rbp don't even need to be a year old to spawn.


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## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> Imo its more age than size & some rbp don't even need to be a year old to spawn.


Do you even know when nattereri are sexually mature? I'm curious to what you know except an opinion.


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## CLUSTER ONE

I agree 4" seems to small to breed though if your measurements are off and it is actually 5" plus I think it could be alot more possible as your description does sound like breeding though a discription is still not as reliable as a video.


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## hastatus

CLUSTER ONE said:


> I agree 4" seems to small to breed though if your measurements are off and it is actually 5" plus I think it could be alot more possible as your description does sound like breeding though a discription is still not as reliable as a video.


Agree. Well documented studies show that sexuality maturity in Pygocentrus nattereri (Females) begin at 141 mm LS (5.5 inches SL) which is near size range I mentioned above. Does age matter? Only to a piranha since fecundity is evident in a yearling, which is sci talk for a year old. Is it possible for a female to be sexually mature at a younger age in an aquarium? maybe, but not highly likely. Well I can say with certainty based on studies on this species, females tend to be larger than males during the first 2 years of growth then males because they compete more for food than the males do. This helps developement. After than, the males catch up size. That's why adult full grown piranhas are not sexually dimorphic. Can you tell your males apart from your females in the aquarium? Of course you can, if you seen them breed.


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## BRUNER247

I have had 5" spawn that were 10-11 months old so why couldn't a 4.5" spawn at 10-11months old. Not all rbp are gonna get 8-9" or even 10". Who knows they may be a year old n stunted a lil or are just gonna be smaller fish. To just flat out n say that fish is to small is stupid. If a fish is 6" & 6months old does that mean its big enough to spawn because he's 6"? No! They aren't gonna spawn till they're old enough. But what do I know I'm just a wanna-be hobbist unlike you Frank with all your scientific data.


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## BRUNER247

Young white girl are maturing younger n younger. Some developing breast as early as 7years old. Studies have shown even in the last decade the age has dropped who's to say our fish aren't doing the same thing? Franks 1976 scientific data?


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## CLUSTER ONE

A couple years ago I asked Frank this same question of age vs size for breeding. The answer was pretty much on average they mature at about 6" and a year old. If they are stunted chances are their care or some enviromental factor was not ideal for them therefore they will not be spawning anyways so a 2yo 4" fish probably will never spawn.

I beleive sylar's fish are relativly young so they are not stunted and are just young. This means if that are actually the size he mentioned there is a likely chance that they are not yet sexually mature.


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## FEEFA

BRUNER247 said:


> I have had 5" spawn that were 10-11 months old so why couldn't a 4.5" spawn at 10-11months old. Not all rbp are gonna get 8-9" or even 10". Who knows they may be a year old n stunted a lil or are just gonna be smaller fish. To just flat out n say that fish is to small is stupid. If a fish is 6" & 6months old does that mean its big enough to spawn because he's 6"? No! They aren't gonna spawn till they're old enough. But what do I know I'm just a wanna-be hobbist unlike you Frank with all your scientific data.


Although you do make a good point about size and age and some older fish being smaller than others I still find it extremely commical that as usual you are unable to make your point when question/challenged without resorting to smartass comments or insults.

Thats just my opinion but I am also just a wanna be hobbyiest and I've personally never bred p's so I will just crawl back into the shadows now.

Carry on


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## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> Young white girl are maturing younger n younger. Some developing breast as early as 7years old. Studies have shown even in the last decade the age has dropped who's to say our fish aren't doing the same thing? Franks 1976 scientific data?


Obviously you are out of touch. Thats 2007 published document.

Even more hilarious comparison young girls to piranhas....however in Manaus some women are called piranha which is slang for prostitute.

Bruner you really are funny. I hope you never get banned here.


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## TheCableGuy

^^


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## Sylar_92

So...My piranhas arent getting ready to bred?


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## hastatus

Only if they are young 7yr old white girls like Bruner said.

But in my opinion watch and see. Never guarantees.


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## BRUNER247

I wasn't comparing girls n piranha but whatever you read sh*t how you want, so have at it. & as far as banning me, fukn do it! This site won't make or break me. Just because a fish might be stunted a lil in no way means that fish couldn't spawn.just because a fish is blowing gravel or even doing the dance in no way means they can or will spawn. They could practice for years & not spawn. What I find is funny as nothing is a given in our hobby but yet you have all this scientific information. Where did all this so-called scientific data come from Frank? Where's this laboratory at doing all this scientific studies on piranha?


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## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> I wasn't comparing girls n piranha but whatever you read sh*t how you want, so have at it. & as far as banning me, fukn do it! This site won't make or break me. Just because a fish might be stunted a lil in no way means that fish couldn't spawn.just because a fish is blowing gravel or even doing the dance in no way means they can or will spawn. They could practice for years & not spawn. What I find is funny as nothing is a given in our hobby but yet you have all this scientific information. Where did all this so-called scientific data come from Frank? Where's this laboratory at doing all this scientific studies on piranha?


Since you asked. Not in your aquarium but the country of origin of the species. That's where 98% of all data comes from. But you are the expert and certainly know more than researchers who study piranha in their native habitat.

Thank god fury has you.

If you want to know the laboratories and institutions they are cited on opefe.


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## Mr. Hannibal

BRUNER247 said:


> I wasn't comparing girls n piranha but whatever you read sh*t how you want, so have at it. & as far as banning me, fukn do it! This site won't make or break me. Just because a fish might be stunted a lil in no way means that fish couldn't spawn.just because a fish is blowing gravel or even doing the dance in no way means they can or will spawn. They could practice for years & not spawn. What I find is funny as nothing is a given in our hobby but yet you have all this scientific information. *Where did all this so-called scientific data come from Frank? Where's this laboratory at doing all this scientific studies on piranha?*










... every single day it's more obvious to me you don't belong here...


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## BRUNER247

Scientific data from wild fish with natural seasons compared to aquarium fish with one continuous season. Whatever, your exactly right i DON'T FUKN BELONG HERE.I have better things to do.


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## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> Scientific data from wild fish with natural seasons compared to aquarium fish with one continuous season. Whatever, your exactly right i DON'T FUKN BELONG HERE.I have better things to do.


Ok. Bye then. We'll try to miss you.


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## Mr. Hannibal

BRUNER247 said:


> Scientific data from wild fish with natural seasons compared to aquarium fish with one continuous season. Whatever, your exactly right i DON'T FUKN BELONG HERE.I have better things to do.


Misleader... people like you drives away from this forums people like me... shame...


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## hastatus

Mr. Hannibal said:


> Scientific data from wild fish with natural seasons compared to aquarium fish with one continuous season. Whatever, your exactly right i DON'T FUKN BELONG HERE.I have better things to do.


Misleader... people like you drives away from this forums people like me... shame...








[/quote]
He didn't read the 98%. The other 2% comes from labs and documented spawnings published.

The important thing he's gone now. Unless that's a lie too.


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## Mr. Hannibal

hastatus said:


> Scientific data from wild fish with natural seasons compared to aquarium fish with one continuous season. Whatever, your exactly right i DON'T FUKN BELONG HERE.I have better things to do.


Misleader... people like you drives away from this forums people like me... shame...








[/quote]
He didn't read the 98%. The other 2% comes from labs and documented spawnings published.

The important thing he's gone now. Unless that's a lie too.
[/quote]

That'd be a nice ending...


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## MFNRyan

BAH HA HA HA HA HA







I love the post where Frank and Bruner are at it!! Cracks me up! Bruner has his "street cred" an thats way more important then facts! There are always exceptions to the rule's. But those are just exceptions, Just because one time your able to do something with a P that is said to not be possible, does not mean someone should expect that in their own P or you should tell them they can do it. That's why science is based on multiple test with the same result, not one result makes it fact. Red bellies are suppose to have red belly's but sometimes a albino comes out. Always exceptions. Doesn't mean Frank is wrong, doesn't mean Bruner is right. I would say your possibilities are 1-10,000 of a young 4" red belly being sexually mature enough to breed an in almost every case Frank's point will be correct. You could be the very rare exception though Sylar. keep us updated on what happens though. I am interested to see how that goes for you. I hope my shoal tries to breed sometime soon, They are reaching the 5-6" mark now.

P.S. I'm far from an expert and I'm sure Bruner knows more and certainly has more experience with these fish. I'm just stating what I see. Not picking at anyone or targeting anyone


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## Mr. Hannibal

Please do not invoke the devil...


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## MFNRyan

ha ha Pinche Bruner es El Diablo!!


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## Mr. Hannibal

RedBelly11 said:


> ha ha Pinche Bruner es El Diablo!!


Yeap, the devil himself, el diablo mismo!


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## ibcd

Lmoa how am I suppose to read& learn with u guys cracking me up all the time?


Mr. Hannibal said:


> Please do not invoke the devil...


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## Mr. Hannibal

Sorry i can't help my self, i'm so happy since he left...


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## MFNRyan

Did he bail like he's not part of the site anymore? Or just not replying back to this post?


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## ibcd

He'll be back. Him&hannibal prob sharing a pizza


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## MFNRyan

He lives in south america too??


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## ibcd

Lmao no.


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## hastatus

Brunette who??????

Ohhh Bruner. Forgot about him.


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> BAH HA HA HA HA HA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love the post where Frank and Bruner are at it!! Cracks me up! Bruner has his "street cred" an thats way more important then facts! There are always exceptions to the rule's. But those are just exceptions, Just because one time your able to do something with a P that is said to not be possible, does not mean someone should expect that in their own P or you should tell them they can do it. That's why science is based on multiple test with the same result, not one result makes it fact. Red bellies are suppose to have red belly's but sometimes a albino comes out. Always exceptions. Doesn't mean Frank is wrong, doesn't mean Bruner is right. I would say your possibilities are 1-10,000 of a young 4" red belly being sexually mature enough to breed an in almost every case Frank's point will be correct. You could be the very rare exception though Sylar. keep us updated on what happens though. I am interested to see how that goes for you. I hope my shoal tries to breed sometime soon, They are reaching the 5-6" mark now.
> 
> P.S. I'm far from an expert and I'm sure Bruner knows more and certainly has more experience with these fish. I'm just stating what I see. Not picking at anyone or targeting anyone


I know. That's why I take what you say with a grain of salt.


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## MFNRyan

you take what i say with a grain of salt??


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## Sylar_92

...Hmmm I see its safe to come out of my bunker now lol. So 5" is the smallest reds will start to breed then, Alright thanks Frank for the breeding info. Bruner did bring up a point that caught my attention though. Will a stunted piranha have different breeding rate or will they breed normally but have premature fry?


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## hastatus

Sylar_92 said:


> ...Hmmm I see its safe to come out of my bunker now lol. So 5" is the smallest reds will start to breed then, Alright thanks Frank for the breeding info. Bruner did bring up a point that caught my attention though. Will a stunted piranha have different breeding rate or will they breed normally but have premature fry?


Bruner comes up with some interesting ideas. Some are in the realm of wishful thinking.

1. If the fish is naturally stunted, meaning not because of poor conditions or nutrition its highly likely the fish will never reach sexual maturity. Natural selection it will be damaged or eaten.

2. Assuming it is environmental conditions, the fish might recover but whether or not it can reproduce is a crap shoot. So Bruner is making assertions on conditions that are questionable.

3. I can claim the moon is made of green cheese, but science has shown its not. Same like Bruner, he can raise all kinds of issues based on his opinion. Which he has continuously done. Albeit throwing a tantrum when his information is challenged. But I deal with facts and science.

Redbelli calls it street credentials, but what good is that if you can't read the street signs. Much less comprehend it. What in the world is street credentials anyway? Some kind of gang banger? Lol

Premature fry is taking it into the realm of humans. Just like his 7 year girls with boobs. That's way out there.


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> you take what i say with a grain of salt??


You bounce around too much.


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## MFNRyan

That was the point I was trying to make Frank. His is just his own ideas from raising fish and not science. Hence his is not credible. But it was taken with a grain of salt. Lol. Even though I wassupporting the science theory.

Like I said, I was supporting the science theory and laughing at what he had to back his info up. But whatever


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## Sylar_92

I see, the reason I was asking about premature fry was out of cariosity. I've seen alot of live bearers and egg laying fish species shoot out premature fry or just some eggs as a survival technique. I use to has guppies and one day something strange happend to the largest female, I was adding more water to the tank and the female guppy somehow had babies but they were scattered within her body. There were some babies in her head, coming out of a eye socket, in her tail, her back and ripping through her sides. The babies that ripped out survived but the ones within the dead mother's body had to be surgically removed and grew up deformed with white eyes, wavy spines, larger then normal eyes and elongated mouths. Any guesses on how that occured?


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## hastatus

RedBelly11 said:


> That was the point I was trying to make Frank. His is just his own ideas from raising fish and not science. Hence his is not credible. But it was taken with a grain of salt. Lol. Even though I wassupporting the science theory.
> 
> Like I said, I was supporting the science theory and laughing at what he had to back his info up. But whatever


Bruner is full of opinions. And you are right. He can't or wont back them up. Dealing with piranhas is dangerous hobby. Yes they are just a fish. But dangerous nonetheless. You have a hobbyist who's opinion are taken serious because the fish breeds for him, well that can be just as dangerous and stupid. As I told him before. Stick to what you actually know. Give tips on breeding piranha. As you pointed out he goes to far. I wish him well in whatever forum he finds fits him and his ideas.


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## Mr. Hannibal

hastatus said:


> That was the point I was trying to make Frank. His is just his own ideas from raising fish and not science. Hence his is not credible. But it was taken with a grain of salt. Lol. Even though I wassupporting the science theory.
> 
> Like I said, I was supporting the science theory and laughing at what he had to back his info up. But whatever


Bruner is full of opinions. And you are right. He can't or wont back them up. Dealing with piranhas is dangerous hobby. Yes they are just a fish. But dangerous nonetheless. You have a hobbyist who's opinion are taken serious because the fish breeds for him, well that can be just as dangerous and stupid. As I told him before. Stick to what you actually know. Give tips on breeding piranha. As you pointed out he goes to far. I wish him well in whatever forum he finds fits him and his ideas.
[/quote]

I think he belongs to that UK forum...


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## hastatus

Mr. Hannibal said:


> That was the point I was trying to make Frank. His is just his own ideas from raising fish and not science. Hence his is not credible. But it was taken with a grain of salt. Lol. Even though I wassupporting the science theory.
> 
> Like I said, I was supporting the science theory and laughing at what he had to back his info up. But whatever


Bruner is full of opinions. And you are right. He can't or wont back them up. Dealing with piranhas is dangerous hobby. Yes they are just a fish. But dangerous nonetheless. You have a hobbyist who's opinion are taken serious because the fish breeds for him, well that can be just as dangerous and stupid. As I told him before. Stick to what you actually know. Give tips on breeding piranha. As you pointed out he goes to far. I wish him well in whatever forum he finds fits him and his ideas.
[/quote]

I think he belongs to that UK forum...








[/quote]

Who knows, he might already be there.


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## BRUNER247

Lmao!


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## Mr. Hannibal

Welcome Bruner


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## hastatus

Mr. Hannibal said:


> Welcome Bruner


I knew be couldn't resist lmao.


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## BRUNER247

Yeah I'm a member on a few other sites so what? Most of em longer than here. I have more important things to deal with right now than argue with you & your scientific data. But feel free to talk all the sh*t you want. I could definitely use a laugh right now.


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## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> Yeah I'm a member on a few other sites so what? Most of em longer than here. I have more important things to deal with right now than argue with you & your scientific data. But feel free to talk all the sh*t you want. I could definitely use a laugh right now.


Sorry your life has become so miserable that you need a laugh. Hope its nothing serious.


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## Piranhas_FTW

hastatus said:


> Only if they are young 7yr old white girls like Bruner said.
> 
> But in my opinion watch and see. Never guarantees.


Omfg roflmao WTF 


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## hastatus

Well he did say it:
BRUNER247 16 June 2011 - 09:12 AM

"Young white girl are maturing younger n younger. Some developing breast as early as 7years old. Studies have shown even in the last decade the age has dropped who's to say our fish aren't doing the same thing? Franks 1976 scientific"


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## BRUNER247

Yep I said it. I read it in a magazine that over the last decades that white girls are developing breasts n maturing earlier than say 20,40,60 years ago. It said they believe its floride & other chemicals in our water. Which is why I brought it up. Our fish are in totally different water than the amazon so its not far fetched than our fish could be developing earlier also. but Frank wanna twist words around as usual. Wants to compare studies in the wild to tank raised fish. Fish that go through seasons of droughts n famine, rainy seasons ect. To pampered pets in one continuous season with food served up on a platter.


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## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> Yep I said it. I read it in a magazine that over the last decades that white girls are developing breasts n maturing earlier than say 20,40,60 years ago. It said they believe its floride & other chemicals in our water. Which is why I brought it up. Our fish are in totally different water than the amazon so its not far fetched than our fish could be developing earlier also. but Frank wanna twist words around as usual. Wants to compare studies in the wild to tank raised fish. Fish that go through seasons of droughts n famine, rainy seasons ect. To pampered pets in one continuous season with food served up on a platter.


Not twisting anything. Just quoting you. Happy 4th!


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## hastatus

And I have yet to see any piranhas with breasts.


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## Piranhas_FTW

hastatus said:


> And I have yet to see any piranhas with breasts.


Agreed lolz


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## BRUNER247

You guys are missing the whole point.


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## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> You guys are missing the whole point.


Nope. Fluoride is only toxic to fish in high concentration. The amount added to drinking water is minimal. Otherwise you'd have a bunch of dead aquarium fish where fluoride is used. No serious scientific studies support your claim. As for "other chemicals" not specific enough.

Like I said, never seen a piranha with breasts. And nothing you have claimed is supported by any accredited lab. But give you high marks for bringing up an interesting view.


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## NPJUICE

I trust bruner24/7


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## BRUNER247

Lol hilarious! I give up.


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## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> I trust bruner24/7


PT Barnum.


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## Piranhas_FTW

BRUNER247 said:


> Lol hilarious! I give up.


Not being mean or anything but I hate your picture lol its creepy


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## hastatus

Piranhas_FTW said:


> Lol hilarious! I give up.


Not being mean or anything but I hate your picture lol its creepy
[/quote]
Hey be nice. Its a good likeness of him


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## BRUNER247

No worries. I didn't get my ink for you to enjoy


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## Piranhas_FTW

-


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## BRUNER247

Lol... if you say so


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## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> Lol... if you say so


Wow missed that.


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## BRUNER247

Ah you didn't miss anything Frank he just said I was being a douchebag for sayn. No worries. I didn't get my ink for him to enjoy.


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## hastatus

BRUNER247 said:


> Ah you didn't miss anything Frank he just said I was being a douchebag for sayn. No worries. I didn't get my ink for him to enjoy.


I've been called worse.


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## BRUNER247

Well I thought I was being nice. I said no worries. That he doesn't like my ink. & like I said I didn't get it for him to enjoy. He's actually the first to speak up that he doesn't like it. So I got a laugh from his creepy comment.


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## Piranhas_FTW

BRUNER247 said:


> Well I thought I was being nice. I said no worries. That he doesn't like my ink. & like I said I didn't get it for him to enjoy. He's actually the first to speak up that he doesn't like it. So I got a laugh from his creepy comment.


That's why I deleted it.


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## hastatus

Piranhas_FTW said:


> Well I thought I was being nice. I said no worries. That he doesn't like my ink. & like I said I didn't get it for him to enjoy. He's actually the first to speak up that he doesn't like it. So I got a laugh from his creepy comment.


That's why I deleted it.
[/quote]
And you are a better person for it. besides Bruner does say funny stuff.


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## Piranhas_FTW

And you are a better person for it.

So is that a question or a statement?


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## hastatus

Piranhas_FTW said:


> And you are a better person for it.
> 
> So is that a question or a statement?


Statement. Not sure where those question marks came from.


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## Piranhas_FTW

hastatus said:


> And you are a better person for it.
> 
> So is that a question or a statement?


Statement. Not sure where those question marks came from.
[/quote]
Lol alright, and they were from you putting the smiley faces. I saw the period but some people aren't smart enough to put the right ending punctuation.


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## hastatus

Piranhas_FTW said:


> And you are a better person for it.
> 
> So is that a question or a statement?


Statement. Not sure where those question marks came from.
[/quote]
Lol alright, and they were from you putting the smiley faces. I saw the period but some people aren't smart enough to put the right ending punctuation.
[/quote]
Its not having to do with smarts. The Smiley faces for some reason or another have a glitch. Seen it in other threads. Must be the new changes.


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## Piranhas_FTW

hastatus said:


> And you are a better person for it.
> 
> So is that a question or a statement?


Statement. Not sure where those question marks came from.
[/quote]
Lol alright, and they were from you putting the smiley faces. I saw the period but some people aren't smart enough to put the right ending punctuation.
[/quote]
Its not having to do with smarts. The Smiley faces for some reason or another have a glitch. Seen it in other threads. Must be the new changes.
[/quote]
I'm not talking about you I'm just stating that some people ask questions and instead of a question mark they put a period. Like I said I saw your period and I still wasn't sure if it was a question (not because I saw the blue question mark), just seems like it might have been a question.


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## hastatus

Piranhas_FTW said:


> And you are a better person for it.
> 
> So is that a question or a statement?


Statement. Not sure where those question marks came from.
[/quote]
Lol alright, and they were from you putting the smiley faces. I saw the period but some people aren't smart enough to put the right ending punctuation.
[/quote]
Its not having to do with smarts. The Smiley faces for some reason or another have a glitch. Seen it in other threads. Must be the new changes.
[/quote]
I'm not talking about you I'm just stating that some people ask questions and instead of a question mark they put a period. Like I said I saw your period and I still wasn't sure if it was a question (not because I saw the blue question mark), just seems like it might have been a question.
[/quote]
OK. Anyway,I'm using Droid and with auto correct I have to be careful. If I disable it, its worse. I'm not always on computer. Just happen to notice after you mentioned it, there are "?" Blue boxes instead of the Smiley. That's why I said it might've been a glitch. Anyway, no biggie.


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## Piranhas_FTW

Yeah I'm using an iPod.


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