# re did my sump



## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

i finally motivated to redo my sump to increase the fuge volume from the 2 +/- gallon partition of the ten gallon to closer to 6 gallons with a seperate compartment for the skimmer and return pump.

OLD:















Nothing:








TEST FIT:








BULKHEAD TO DRAIN FROM FUGE TO SKIMMER/RETURN:






















COMPLETED:








so far things are running good, two major concerns, im not sure if the return pump/skimmer bin will hold the volume of water that drains when the return pump is off. to fix that i will need to correct my return nozzles so they syphon out less water maybe just drill a small hole at the water line.. other issue is micro bubles i need to put a bubble trap between the skimmer and the return pump..

other then that i now have about 6 gallon fuge which will let me grow alot more cheato and should be able to fit a slightly larger skimmer.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> other then that i now have about 6 gallon fuge which will let me grow alot more cheato and should be able to fit a slightly larger skimmer.


as i had expected not enough volume in the secondary sump container.. we had some nasty weather tongiht and boommpower goes out, while scrambling for the flash light and a bucket it was already too late so i had to scramble for towels. about a gallon and a half voer flowed on to the floor..

to fix this i had to remove one of the return nozzles from the bulk head through the euro rim so that it wouldnt syphon out more water then the over flow would drain when the power goes out..


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## Chapz (Jul 9, 2007)

Sucks.
I avoided using a sump with return flow since i just couldnt risk the spill. Living on a 5th floor apartment is tough for water spills.
Well keep modifying the sump. You'll eventually get it corrected.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

Chapz said:


> Sucks.
> I avoided using a sump with return flow since i just couldnt risk the spill. Living on a 5th floor apartment is tough for water spills.
> Well keep modifying the sump. You'll eventually get it corrected.


i was up till two last night, but its shouldnt spill over now.

i removed both of the locline return lines so they wouldnt syphon out any more water then the over flow drains. if i get some 90 degree lock line elbows i might put them back in but its running fine with out.

next i added another 90 to the drain in the white fuge container (aka garbage can) so this is turned up to surface skim the fuge and prevents the elbow on the fuge from draining excess water to teh other sump.

lastly once i worked out those to fixes i pulled the plug and let it all drain then filled it up to within an inch of the top then started it up and let it run and marked the water level so now i know how much water to top off with out risk of spilling over.

so now thts all good but my skimmer is not submerged enough to run at the foam at the height i perfer for a wet skim, its still producing but its much dryer. to fix this i either need to get a differnt pump for it or jst upgrade the skimmer to a recirculating that is fed by the water moving from the fuge or external skimmer so the water level is not as much of an issue.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

***update***

i do think between the new light and increase size of the fuge and type of water movement my cheato has begun to grow at a much faster rate. it appears to be close to twice the size the clump was.


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## assclown (Dec 12, 2005)

isnt sump building fun?


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

assclown said:


> isnt sump building fun?


as long as you have a couple of huge towels to soak up the spills from mistakes


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Great job ND. I am sure the increase in overall water volume will help the over all tank. Plus, since you now have more room to grow cheato, the bigger it gets the first it will grow. Plus, the more nutrients it will uptake. It is a win/win for your tank.

Good DIY instructions BTW. Keep them coming. Good instructions like this spawn all sorts of new and great ideas.


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## Chapz (Jul 9, 2007)

How is the sump doing right now Nismo?
Any other issues? Anyways, i decided to try and get a sump working since i was given an overflow box from a friend who doesnt needed it. Im trying to add some baffles to seperate the systems. Just not as simple since i need to cut the plexi once i get it.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

i took the cheato out the other day and put it in the chamber it was in the old sump, looks to be atleast 30 percent larger. so that is good..

now for the not so good.

as some of you may have read in other post i have up graded my return pump. i also have dual durso's in my overflow one is adjustable and setup as a primary the other is fixed height and is intended to be an emergency incase the other is clogged..

with the increased return line the drain from the white fuge contianer couldnt keep up so the water level raised to a height that allowed the cheato to float over to the drain further reducing its capacity to keep up fortunately i was monitoring this and caught it before it spilled too much but it still resulted in a spill..

to fix this i had to lift the primary durso to force the secondary durso to handle some of the work load and divert some of the over flow directly to the second sump chamber that houses the skimer and return pump, this fixed the problem of the fuge overflowing but now its creating more bubbles and i still havent created the baffles to eliminate teh micro bubbles.

im also not really happy with the space for the skimmer its far too cramped under there leaving me with not enough room to put in the baffles to eliminate the bubbles, the huge fuge is great, the added water volume is great but the compromises i had to make for these is not so great.

im starting to think i might have to plumb the pump externally but then i dont exactly have room for it to be external. next option is to scrap this set up and attempt to make my own out of glass but the cost of materials will be almost as much as geting them done by a professional.

if i did take this route i would still have to make two seperate containers and join them with bulkheads because of the way i have to put them under the stand but i think maybe equal height halfway between the height of the two current containers, this would reduce the size of the fuge again but would give me the room i need for my current skimmer or a larger one and the bubble trap before the return pump.. or the other option would be to give up on the fuge and just rely on carbon, GFO phosphate remover and skimmer.


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## barbianj (Aug 3, 2003)

Instead of the small container, couldn't you use two containers of equal size and connect them with two U-tubes?

This would give you more room in the second container and reduce the micro bubbles at the same time.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

barbianj said:


> Instead of the small container, couldn't you use two containers of equal size and connect them with two U-tubes?
> 
> This would give you more room in the second container and reduce the micro bubbles at the same time.


i thought about this but my current skimmer is in sump that can be submerged that much plus i wouldnt be able to run the drain for the skimmer cup in a container that tall and i dont have room to plumb another skimmer external.

i worked out an acceptable solution both space wise and working in theory of function in all aspects..

how ever it would cost a lot more to either have them made or attempt to construct them my self as it will require about 21 square feet of 3/8's glass..


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

A couple of things I was thinking about your design. Why not transpose the fuge and skimmer location. That way, you can remove more solid waist before it clogges up any baffles, sponges, etc. and gets filtered by the fuge last. You could redesign the system for size differences, and shrink the front fuge to better fit the skimmer (or have the skimmer insump in lieu of a external sump skimmer design as above), and increase the skimmer pump box to have a larger fuge. Plus, move the chemical filtration to last in line before the return pump. You want all your mech-filtartion (e.g. filter sock, skimmer, baffles, etc.) first, then fuge, then chemical filtration before returning to the main system. That is the most effective way of filtration, and will keep everything working better. If you have the chemical filtration first, then the carbon, GFO, etc. will get clogged with larger particles faster, than if you have them last.

Plus, if you have the skimmer first, then fuge, then chemical filtration, that will really decrease the number of micro-bubbles returned to the main tank. The reason you are having so many micro-bubbles now is that your skimmer & return pump are side by side. If you separate them, then the skimmer will not be returning its return water in the same container as the return pump.

I like Barbianj's idea of...



> Instead of the small container, couldn't you use two containers of equal size and connect them with two U-tubes?


however, don't use a U-tube, just connect the two containers with two or more larger bulkheads near the bottom. Thus, creating a larger volume split into two containers, but they are not reliant on a gravity feed. That should solve all your overflow issues that you are running into right now. As long as you factor enough room for when the power shuts off the sump/refuge can handle the remaining overflow coming from the main tank.

If your skimmer can not be submerged that much, simply build a submergible box in which it can sit on. That will raise it up, and you can still use the drain cup.

You are making me think/type WAY TOO MUCH.

Let me know your thoughts.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

Coldfire said:


> A couple of things I was thinking about your design. Why not transpose the fuge and skimmer location. That way, you can remove more solid waist before it clogges up any baffles, sponges, etc. and gets filtered by the fuge last. You could redesign the system for size differences, and shrink the front fuge to better fit the skimmer (or have the skimmer insump in lieu of a external sump skimmer design as above), and increase the skimmer pump box to have a larger fuge. Plus, move the chemical filtration to last in line before the return pump. You want all your mech-filtartion (e.g. filter sock, skimmer, baffles, etc.) first, then fuge, then chemical filtration before returning to the main system. That is the most effective way of filtration, and will keep everything working better. If you have the chemical filtration first, then the carbon, GFO, etc. will get clogged with larger particles faster, than if you have them last.
> 
> Plus, if you have the skimmer first, then fuge, then chemical filtration, that will really decrease the number of micro-bubbles returned to the main tank. The reason you are having so many micro-bubbles now is that your skimmer & return pump are side by side. If you separate them, then the skimmer will not be returning its return water in the same container as the return pump.
> 
> ...


this is why im having such issues with the size of my under tank area. i should have it in the order you listed, skimmer fuge chem. ( i rarely run any sponges ect) the other thing i was jsut thinking but is totally not going to happen. i could cut a hole in the wall and run everything in the spare room, then just sheet rock the hole or put a swtich blank plate over it when i move out.. fortunately my girl friend would never let me do that but ultimately a full on seperaet display qualityfuge would rock. do half deep sand bed with mangroves and half cheato/ macro tank with pipe fish / mandrin ect..

oh sorry i slipped into a day dream..

yeah i need to work out this idea so things move in through the right stages in the right order

the main problem is i want to maximise the fuge size which mean tall which means too tal for the skimmer return or internal skimmer the secondary criteria is that i need to have enough room to collect all drain water from the display when i need to do maintenance or if the power goes out

i think the design i posted above is a good starting point but needs to be revised..

ifi i ran external pumps it would give me more room to work with but im still going to have to design the shape and size of teh containers around the cinstraints of getting them into the stand which has a 16 inch wide opening but a 21.5 inch x 15.5 inch interior

OK

just did some brain storming and sketching. think i have a good option..

if i go with external pumps and skimer i can run one chamber 15x16x16 that would just fit in the opening and take about 2/3 of the space, then put bulk heads in for tehskimmer feed pump and the return pump, if i set the chamber dividers to keep the water level at about 2/3 of the height this would provide enough extra space to contain the over flow from teh display with the power off. then i could have to right order of filtration.

even though the return pump and skimmer pump are the same size the return pump will move less water through the disply because of the head pressure so the water drainning into the skimmer collection chamber would be running through the skimmer more then once before flowing over in to the fuge (theoretically). i belive the return line for the skimmer is @ 11 inchs minimum butonce dialed in it would most likely be at more like 14 or 15 inchs so this wouldnt be a prodlem draining back into the sump through a bulk head into the drain chamber. then once through the fuge it flows into the return chamber there would be a three or four panel bubble trap and i could have carbon and or the drive pump for the gfo reactor and mount the gfo reactor on the side on the stand above the return pump... the other option with the fuge chamber being that size is to remove teh cheato and use my 70w halide sunpd and put frags in there for a mini prop systems. the cheato would be more bennificial to the system though.

View attachment 159489


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

nismo driver said:


> OK
> 
> just did some brain storming and sketching. think i have a good option..
> 
> ...


i priced out 1/4 inch glass for the walls and 3/8 for the base including baffles for the chambers and glass alone came out to $185 not including drilling..

i think i can get the guy the local lfs uses to make it for less, he gave me a quote of 150 to build to sumps so for one i could probably get it for around 100 - 120.. still alot more then i want to spend but it nees to be done eventually


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Ah Ha!!! About your day dream. If you want to do something like that, below are some links to a member that did the same (well, similar) thing. His tank was built into the wall, but the principal is the same with the sump/refuge in the next room. You can also do a google search, and find similar DIY jobs with the in-wall, through-wall design. The first link is the link from his signature since most of the pics from the thread (second link) are gone. Go ahead and review it anyway, because there are some really good idea in there.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzetjvef/jasert3...uarium/id1.html

http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.ph...ywall&st=80

To the new design....
The new design should work very well. I will break this down between the different boxes to make it easier for me to follow.

Drain/Skimmer Box:
I presume the bulkhead to the Mag7 (skimmer pump) is drilled at the bottom, correct? From there it flows to the Mag7, then to the skimmer, with the return from the skimmer plumbed back to the drain/skimmer box, correct? You can either have that drain over the top of the side of the drain/skimmer box, or have another bulkhead drilled at the top of the drian/skimmer box (above the bulkhead at the bottom). So, you would have one above the other in a vertical line formation. From there, you could plumb PVC from the return bulkhead/skimmer to the other side of the drain box so the water will be less likely to be re-skimmed before flowing into the fuge. Thus, you are pulling water from the drain box to the skimmer, then returned to the same area. That will help keep a constaint water level in that area. Besides, even if the water is double skimmed before moving into the fuge are that is fine. e.g. cleaner water.

Fuge:
The fuge looks perfect. You can use either light above the cheato. IMO the 70w MH HQI bulb will really grow that cheato. I would definitely go with the fuge/marco area before the frag area personally. The macro will benefit the overall tank much more than the frag area. Plus, if you are funning the 70w MH, you could also segment off an area of the fuge for frags down the road. Personally, I would deal with growing macro algae first, then frags second. Your frags will take a while before they really need fraging.

Chemical Filtration Box:
Again, looks good to me. One remark: if you are going to run or in the future run a GFO reactor, run the pump out of this box, then have the water return to this box. That way, the final return pump is the only pump returning water to the main tank. That will keep the water level in both the sump and main tank much more level, in lieu of trying to level two, three, etc. pumps returning to the main tank. With pump failure, pumps weakending, head-presure that is a design for an overflow down the road. IMO have everything plumbed from the sump to whatever water treatment product (e.g. skimmer, GFO reactor, UV, etc...), then back to the sump, then returned to the main tank. Don't have any other return pumps from the sump pumping water back to the main tank except the return pump. Just my 2 cents....

Other than that, the new designes look great!!!!

Thoughts?


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

Coldfire said:


> Ah Ha!!! About your day dream. If you want to do something like that, below are some links to a member that did the same (well, similar) thing. His tank was built into the wall, but the principal is the same with the sump/refuge in the next room. You can also do a google search, and find similar DIY jobs with the in-wall, through-wall design. The first link is the link from his signature since most of the pics from the thread (second link) are gone. Go ahead and review it anyway, because there are some really good idea in there.
> 
> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzetjvef/jasert3...uarium/id1.html
> 
> ...


thats pretty much my exact thoughts behind in the new design put into words.. its pretty much just a matter of finding the right place to get the sump done, for the cost of materials alone i would rather pay someone to build and drill it then mess with it my self..

i will hit this thread as things progress (when or if they do)


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Sounds good. I would definitely like to see the progess of this project as it goes along.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

i almost sold my g/f on the "through wall" idea the other day but she doesnt think the landlord would appreciate the random blank plate or have confidence in my ability to replace a piece of sheet rock without it being obvious. plus it would be a pain to have to move the tank then go back and patch and paint a hole in two walls.. i still the two or three way switch blank plate is the key..


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Ah, put a ventilation plate on there. Put one on each side, and say it was like that when you moved it. What can he say as long as it has a clean look?


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## barbianj (Aug 3, 2003)

I don't know if you have the room, but you could put a sump on either side, just make it look like an end table with a hinged lid.

But the ventilation plate is a good idea, especially if you can find the same type that you have in the apartment.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

Coldfire said:


> Ah, put a ventilation plate on there. Put one on each side, and say it was like that when you moved it. What can he say as long as it has a clean look?


unfortunately its not like a super incharge of multiple apts, its nice couple that rents it out so i dont want to be a bad tennat. i did think about the ventthing though and just claim it was to equalize the heating of the two rooms


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

barbianj said:


> I don't know if you have the room, but you could put a sump on either side, just make it look like an end table with a hinged lid.
> 
> But the ventilation plate is a good idea, especially if you can find the same type that you have in the apartment.


the enclosure idea is pretty good idea i might have to see if i could work that out i have seen others over on RC use that with a cabinet next to the tank. i have been thinking about getting a larger supply cabinet anyway so i have a place to hide my top off water bucket. maybe i should get a reef ready 55 gallon and set it up as a display fuge and run the sump for both tanks under that? that would be alot more expensive though then to have a custom sump built to hide under the stand.


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Yeah, it sucks to have good morals and a conscience. I have the same problem myself. Understood, and that can just be a future project when you buy a house.



nismo driver said:


> I don't know if you have the room, but you could put a sump on either side, just make it look like an end table with a hinged lid.
> 
> But the ventilation plate is a good idea, especially if you can find the same type that you have in the apartment.


the enclosure idea is pretty good idea i might have to see if i could work that out i have seen others over on RC use that with a cabinet next to the tank. i have been thinking about getting a larger supply cabinet anyway so i have a place to hide my top off water bucket. maybe i should get a reef ready 55 gallon and set it up as a display fuge and run the sump for both tanks under that? that would be alot more expensive though then to have a custom sump built to hide under the stand.
[/quote]

If you look at the upfront cost, yes, it would be more expensize. However, the benefit from having such a large refuge, additional sump (under the 55g), and additional water volume would really be worth it. That is a great idea right there.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

Coldfire said:


> I don't know if you have the room, but you could put a sump on either side, just make it look like an end table with a hinged lid.
> 
> But the ventilation plate is a good idea, especially if you can find the same type that you have in the apartment.


the enclosure idea is pretty good idea i might have to see if i could work that out i have seen others over on RC use that with a cabinet next to the tank. i have been thinking about getting a larger supply cabinet anyway so i have a place to hide my top off water bucket. maybe i should get a reef ready 55 gallon and set it up as a display fuge and run the sump for both tanks under that? that would be alot more expensive though then to have a custom sump built to hide under the stand.
[/quote]

If you look at the upfront cost, yes, it would be more expensize. However, the benefit from having such a large refuge, additional sump (under the 55g), and additional water volume would really be worth it. That is a great idea right there.
[/quote]

it would definately be a pipe fish / mandrin tank..

ugh between all the other crap ive done, car holidays ect im tapped out right now..

on a side note though i have been slowly raising my alk, its at around 11 dkh and my Dinoflagellates, raising alk was one fo teh commonly suggested ways fo fighting them.. but im definately seeing an issue with drain running through my fuge first. im gettign some nasty stuff out of my skimmer but the fuge is looking some what nasty.

im wondering if i can mod the bps-3c to run inline with the drain line from the tank then everything could get skimmed out. it a venturi skimmer so as long as there is enough water pressure running past the venturi it should work.. bermuda aquatics has a forum on RC i think im going to pose this question.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

here is a vid from teh skimmer manufacturer 
http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y15/bronx...ermudavideo.flv


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

the rubber maid is gone, the last pouple of days i have been noticing and increasing amount of water around the stand along with my other dissatisfaction of the way things were operating i drained it ad pulled it, i put the old 10 gallon sump back in but with out the fuge partition so that i could fit the larger skimmer. after running for about 8 hoursit waspulling some frothy but fairly colorless skimmate. im going to let it run a few days and if its not getting some color then i think its overkill so i might just put the old skimmer back in and sell this one. the one up side i did have to the rubber maid set up was some pretty good cheato growth.. for now the sand and cheato from the fuge is in a bucket im not sure i will be able to convince my g/f to accept another tank in the living room..


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

What you could do is use the rubbermaid container outside the stand. Pump water from your 10g sump to the rubbermaid container (e.g. refuge), then let the water drain back to the sump. A very easy cover would be to build a box out of wood to sit over the refuge, then spraypaint it black to match your stand. That way, the refuge box would look like an extension of the stand and not stick out that much.

Plus, the entire rubbermaid container would be your refuge (increasing water volume & creating a large refuge area) without adding another tank to your living room, or drawing a ton of attention to it.


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

Coldfire said:


> What you could do is use the rubbermaid container outside the stand. Pump water from your 10g sump to the rubbermaid container (e.g. refuge), then let the water drain back to the sump. A very easy cover would be to build a box out of wood to sit over the refuge, then spraypaint it black to match your stand. That way, the refuge box would look like an extension of the stand and not stick out that much.
> 
> Plus, the entire rubbermaid container would be your refuge (increasing water volume & creating a large refuge area) without adding another tank to your living room, or drawing a ton of attention to it.


im kind of thinking about running fugeless and just use gfo and carbon.. there is no question the fuge is the better way to run a tank and just by seeing the amount of cheato growth the bennifit is hard to deny but until i can come up with an acceptable attractive solution i think this might be the way to go.. i would offer the cheato to someone but with the algae/bacteria problem ive been having i wouldnt want to give someone else my head ache.. i think i will just rinse the sand and put it in the display to fill in a few thin spots.


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

No refuge = BOO HISSS

Where is the fun in that?


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## nismo driver (Jan 27, 2004)

Coldfire said:


> No refuge = BOO HISSS
> 
> Where is the fun in that?


yeah yeah i know and trust me i was looking in the bucket that my sand and cheato is in and teh whole thing is moveing with life, those lil tiny pods that look like spec the lil swimmers tigerpods?) the normal size versions of puff' podzilla..

my gf got me a cabinenet yesterday with the intention of giving me a place to "hide" my top offwater buckets but it is big enough to fit a 10 gallon either inside or on top so this could be a rmote fuge setup. inside would be better since it wont be pretty but im concered about the moisture and heat being trapped. i could put a couple of vent fans in it i guess. the second concern will be how to get the water to and from the fuge, if its inside it wont be high enough to gravity feed back to the sump.

i will build it this weekend and see what i can come up with.


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## Coldfire (Aug 20, 2003)

Now, that is what I am talking about.

If at first you don't succeed, then try, try again.


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