# College aid backed for illegal immigrants



## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_4258617

Legislators say it's not kids' fault parents brought them to California
BY SAMANTHA YOUNG, Associated Press

SACRAMENTO - Students who came to the country illegally could apply for state financial aid when they attend California colleges and universities under legislation approved Tuesday by the Assembly in a party-line vote.

Supporters said immigrant children who have graduated and completed at least three years of high school in California should not be penalized for their parents' decision to bring them to the U.S. illegally.

"It is one small measure to help these kids that are working their butts off to live the American dream," said Assemblyman Hector De La Torre, D-South Gate.

The bill would build upon current state law that allows the same group of students to qualify for in-state tuition at California public schools and community colleges based on high school attendance, rather than U.S. citizenship or state residency.

Critics said offering financial aid to illegal immigrants would shortchange needy young citizens competing for a small pot of money for higher education.

"We're talking about limited resources here," said Assemblyman Chuck DeVore, R-Irvine. "There's only so much that can go around. It's a slap in the face to people who have followed the rules."

*Lawmakers approved Senate Bill 160 by a 43-27 vote, with no Republicans supporting it, and sent it to the Senate for final approval. * Aides to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said he had taken no position on the bill.

Just to state my position, I follow no political party, but that last statement I had to highlight. What do you guys think? As you can tell I think this is a stupid idea when we have enough legal citizens who can barely afford college as it is who need financial aid to help them out. They get turned down because they are a citizen who has paid taxes to help out other students in the same position and someone who is in this country illegally who does not pay taxes receives the money instead.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

I voted for arnie... HE BETTER FIX THIS. At times like this, I wish I lived in texas... they would never pass this crap...


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## oscar119 (Nov 26, 2005)

I follow your last statement Brian, I think it's a stupid idea as well. It's hard enough for me to get college aid, let alone having to pay for someone who's parents broke a law(this will start an argument but they're called "illegals" for a reason) to go to college.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

Who voted yes?!? I want to read the reasoning?


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Uh no. Why should AMERICANS have to pay, and pay more in fact espeically if they're out of state then illegals?! If they're anchor babies, my solution is this. You cheated your way into the system and had a baby so you could stay here. If thats the case, you are allowed to stay in the US until your kid is 18 yrs of age....then we deport your ass back to your country. Your kid is a adult now and he should pay for his own self from then on. If he wants to go back to his "mother country" so be it. But the parent isn't gonna mooch off the law abiding taxpayers anymore.


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## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

GT45FD3S said:


> I follow your last statement Brian, I think it's a stupid idea as well. It's hard enough for me to get college aid, let alone having to pay for someone who's parents broke a law(this will start an argument but they're called "illegals" for a reason) to go to college.


I was just amazed to read this. Our government is "punishing" its citizens who actually can vote and are legally here to pay out of our pockets for illegal immigrants saying "don't blame the children." I'm not blaming/punishing the children, I'm just allowing the nations LEGAL children to gain their legal education. I support financial aid, I used it myself but I've also paid my taxes to use it before I went to college and afterwards. I really hope this doesn't pass, if it does, I'm wondering if I could give up my US Citizenship and just become an illegal, that way I get free healthcare, free financial aid, and I won't have to pay taxes.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

diddye said:


> I was just amazed to read this. Our government is "punishing" its citizens who actually can vote and are legally here to pay our of their pockets for illegal immigrants saying "don't blame the children." I'm not blaming/punishing the children, I'm just allowing the nations LEGAL children to gain their legal education. I support financial aid, I used it myself but I've also paid my taxes to use it before I went to college and afterwards. I really hope this doesn't pass, if it does, I'm wondering if I could give up my US Citizenship and just become an illegal, that way I get free healthcare, free financial aid, and I won't have to pay taxes.


Yes you can. you simply have to denounce your citizenship at an american ambasy. And hand over your SS card. then you never have to pay taxes. But you will have to always take the lowest rung of jobs and live in semi poverty. and you will never be able to collect any of the taxes you put into the system. Oh then theres the looming issue of deportation. But where would you go if you were deported? whats your motherland? Cause unless your Hispanic or Native American its not here.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> Uh no. Why should AMERICANS have to pay, and pay more in fact espeically if they're out of state then illegals?! If they're anchor babies, my solution is this. You cheated your way into the system and had a baby so you could stay here. If thats the case, you are allowed to stay in the US until your kid is 18 yrs of age....then we deport your ass back to your country. Your kid is a adult now and he should pay for his own self from then on. If he wants to go back to his "mother country" so be it. But the parent isn't gonna mooch off the law abiding taxpayers anymore.


 I say f*ck it. We pay for all you illegals that came her on boats so why not pay for the ones that walked here. At least they put billions of dollars into the system each year. just like everyone else. Except they will never claim it. So go ahead and let their kids get an education and be a member of society. would you rather they remain ignorant and leach off the ssytem or get an education and pay their own way and then also take care of their parents so that you don't have to.
[/quote]

What? Who said that illegals over boats or walking were any different? Are you referring to asians? They should get their asses booted also. No appeasment is how it should be. If we do this, its an incentive to come here even more. You seriously should move to Northern mexico....errr i mean southern california and get a taste of this invasion.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

Yup, Cali is bad.

I think the law should change. What is the need for the "anchor baby" law?


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2006)

I dont live in the States, so my vote isnt really all that important, but I would support this. Either break the chain or continue to allow it to strangle you.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

diddye said:


> Yup, Cali is bad.
> 
> I think the law should change. What is the need for the "anchor baby" law?


If you think about it you're all anchor babies.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> I dont live in the States, so my vote isnt really all that important, but I would support this. Either break the chain or continue to allow it to strangle you.


so breaking the law is a positive thing?!?!









it should be rewarded?


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## oscar119 (Nov 26, 2005)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> I say f*ck it. We pay for all * you * illegals that came her on boats so why not pay for the ones that walked here. At least they put billions of dollars into the system each year. just like everyone else.


I'm an illegal?







My father/grandfather came on a boat but they came legally, and it was in an era of nazi-ism way different then our goverment is corrupt so our country is dry and we just don't want to live here anymore.

I don't think the people who get paid dollars an hour to do farm work are putting money back into the system. There might be some people who somehow are illegal and use a SS# number but 50% are under the table and send much of their money back to their home country.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2006)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> I dont live in the States, so my vote isnt really all that important, but I would support this. Either break the chain or continue to allow it to strangle you.


so breaking the law is a positive thing?!?!









it should be rewarded?
[/quote]

If you parents killed someone, would you think its just that you be jailed for it?


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

I understand the logic. But in this case, neither the parents or the children are punished. Actually, they are all rewarded...


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2006)

In a country of the free, I hardly would call a chance at good education a reward. If that is a reward in your society today, maybe your gv't should be putting more money into the schooling system.


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## oscar119 (Nov 26, 2005)

DannyBoy17 said:


> In a country of the free, I hardly would call a chance at good education a reward. If that is a reward in your society today, maybe your gv't should be putting more money into the schooling system.


A good education should be the bare minimum but when you tell people that if you come to this country illegally they can get a good (post grade 12) college education for nothing you're encouraging more illegal immigrants to come. Basically if they would come legally they wouldn't have as good of a shot at getting college paid for as if they came illegally.

If you think about it isn't the ability to get a good college education a reward in some aspects? It gives you a greater chance of success in life. It gives you more ability to demand a higher pay rate, live the american dream, etc.

Should that ability go first to the kid who is here illegally or to the kid who's parents and himself pay taxes and live under the rules our goverment makes?

Just wait til you get overpopulated with illegals in canada we'll see how you feel then.


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

Hell I don't have kids and some of my property tax helps pay for public schools that's BS. I also don't think there should be public schools or state funded universities. I never went to public schools or state funded universities. I attended privet schools and Privet University. Every one wants the government to take care of every thing for them and there families.

If you're not legal then you get no benefits from the government.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Hell I don't have kids and some of my property tax helps pay for public schools that's BS. I also don't think there should be public schools or state funded universities. I never went to public schools or state funded universities. I attended privet schools and Privet University. Every one wants the government to take care of every thing for them and there families.
> 
> If you're not legal then you get no benefits from the government.


This is another point I would agree with, since I pay about 10k property tax /year.

but I would rather have more educated youth than punk kids. Besides, technology and education is what pushes the US ahead in the world.

Also, if these kids go to college and make more money later down the line... they will be paying taxes and thus be contributing...


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## mike123 (Jul 17, 2006)

diddye said:


> Uh no. Why should AMERICANS have to pay, and pay more in fact espeically if they're out of state then illegals?! If they're anchor babies, my solution is this. You cheated your way into the system and had a baby so you could stay here. If thats the case, you are allowed to stay in the US until your kid is 18 yrs of age....then we deport your ass back to your country. Your kid is a adult now and he should pay for his own self from then on. If he wants to go back to his "mother country" so be it. But the parent isn't gonna mooch off the law abiding taxpayers anymore.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> I dont live in the States, so my vote isnt really all that important, but I would support this. Either break the chain or continue to allow it to strangle you.


so breaking the law is a positive thing?!?!









it should be rewarded?
[/quote]

If you parents killed someone, would you think its just that you be jailed for it?
[/quote]

Thanks for pointing that out danny....a better example would be if the parent killed someone, the parent shouldn't be sent to jail b/c he has a child at home that might suffer. This bill is for illegal students...not legal american students. Just to clear things up.

Blacksunshine....from your posts, i can deduct one of a couple things.

1. You are/were an illegal alien
2. Your family is/was illegals
3. You have close friends or a significant other that is/was an illegal.

Am i right? Btw, I am not white and my family line goes back to the 1890's when my grandfather first came LEGALLY. You go figure it out.

Mexicans in so cal....hmmm...how much you want to bet the vast vast vast majority of them(or are anchor babies) either were or are illegals?


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## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Hell I don't have kids and some of my property tax helps pay for public schools that's BS. I also don't think there should be public schools or state funded universities. I never went to public schools or state funded universities. I attended privet schools and Privet University. Every one wants the government to take care of every thing for them and there families.
> 
> If you're not legal then you get no benefits from the government.


I hear what you are saying, I don't have kids and I pay taxes (income, sales, property etc) but I don't mind paying taxes to educate the youth. Not everyone in America can go to private school their entire life. I got lucky and had a very hard working father who sent his kids to private school, I paid for college and decided on private too. But not everyone is as lucky as you or I. If you don't need the schools, you can always move to a school district with lower property taxes, vote no on school levys, etc.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Anybody know carlos mencia? hes the hispanic comedian....and said something funny in season 1. Its something along the lines of:

"You canadians better watch out. We mexicans can't even get along with each other. In southern california, thats all we see. Its like "damn, theres too many mexicans in california." The next thing we'll do is to go canada."

Danny will be crying like us in 10 years...bet on it hahha.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

diddye said:


> Blacksunshine....from your posts, i can deduct one of a couple things.
> 
> 1. You are/were an illegal alien
> 2. Your family is/was illegals
> ...


Nope your way off. My family has always been here. Every generation of my family has always been in america. before your people boated over here and started invading my country we were here. And we are still here. Even after most of southern california was stolen from my family. We stayed. some were taken and deported by the invaders of our land. some stayed under the radar. some came back. But trust me when I say I have much more right to my opinion then any of you to yours. As far as I'm concearned you are all illegals. because you came here illegally. Just as you point the finger at those that come here now and call them illegal. you all came over in the exact same manner. fleeing from your countries because you wanted a better life. but you treaded on my lawn to get that better life. Thats what gives me the right to point the finger right back at you. because the fact is you all are illegals. 1890s? And what your black asian is that supose to have soem significance to me? 
My people were here since the dawn of man. You figure that one out.

I'm simply pointing out that you are all hypocrates for trying to deny these people a chance to live the american dream that your grandfolk all came here to live having put nothing into the system and bring nothing with them what gave them the right to stay, to become a contributing member of our society? and why is it now that you and your familys are established here do you deny another peoples the right to do the same?
Americas slogan. "Bring us your tired, your poor and your sick." Did the slogan change after you got here and kicked the residents out?


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

hmmmm.....


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Well if you're a native american, then ya, you're right to have your own opinion. No disagreement there. However, if you want to get technical, Indians never had a great understanding of land possession, so if americans "Bought" this country for a couple beads and furs....well then.....thats how it was...if you wanna get technical. Wanna know the difference between illegals now and before? One was welcomed legally and one wasn't. I dont know how thats so hard to understand. This topic has been done before so i'll recap:

Our "people" who have to wait 10 years and pay legal fees etc are being cheated by illegals who run across the border and come on boats. Ya, they may pay sales tax when they buy a tv, but they dont pay the 30-40% income tax that us working folk have to. They dont pay estate taxes, mortage taxes....etc. So what if they pay 8% on their pizza when I get reamed for working. The $12 they make illegally isn't taxed...so what is that? Like $16 for most people? Thats not that bad espeically since the vast majority of their earnings go back to mexico and not into our economy. We're mexicos 2nd largest source of external income.

Simple question to blacksunshine. If you're all for brining all the tired hungry, sick etc...is there a limit? Because if you were president, you do realize that almost all of mexico, south america, asia, africa would all be here right? How'd you like this 300 million population increase to billions? Like that? Thought not.


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## oscar119 (Nov 26, 2005)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> your grandfolk all came here to live having put nothing into the system and bring nothing with them what gave them the right to stay


How do you know my grandfolk put nothing into the system and brought nothing with them? I believe my grandfather was in the U.S. army for a short time. My uncle fought in vietnam. Both legal immigrants.

What gives any legal alien or citizen the right to stay is a SS card/documentation, as well as being governed by americas rules and following them not staying under the radar because they were looking for a better way and making believe that because they were looking for a better way that makes it ok to break laws of the country you want to be a part of.


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## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> Blacksunshine....from your posts, i can deduct one of a couple things.
> 
> 1. You are/were an illegal alien
> 2. Your family is/was illegals
> ...


Nope your way off. My family has always been here. Every generation of my family has always been in america. before your people boated over here and started invading my country we were here. And we are still here. Even after most of southern california was stolen from my family. We stayed. some were taken and deported by the invaders of our land. some stayed under the radar. some came back. But trust me when I say I have much more right to my opinion then any of you to yours. As far as I'm concearned you are all illegals. because you came here illegally. Just as you point the finger at those that come here now and call them illegal. you all came over in the exact same manner. fleeing from your countries because you wanted a better life. but you treaded on my lawn to get that better life. Thats what gives me the right to point the finger right back at you. because the fact is you all are illegals. 1890s? And what your black asian is that supose to have soem significance to me? 
My people were here since the dawn of man. You figure that one out.

I'm simply pointing out that you are all hypocrates for trying to deny these people a chance to live the american dream that your grandfolk all came here to live having put nothing into the system and bring nothing with them what gave them the right to stay, to become a contributing member of our society? and why is it now that you and your familys are established here do you deny another peoples the right to do the same?
Americas slogan. "Bring us your tired, your poor and your sick." Did the slogan change after you got here and kicked the residents out?
[/quote]

And like I said before, your people stole the land from single cell organisms!









My grandparents came to this country LEGALLY. They paid all their dues, taxes, fees, even joined the military and were both granddads were part of Dday on omaha beach. These immigrants are here differently, how they are illegal. They didn't follow the US process, they didn't pay their dues, fees, taxes, etc.

I cannot just walk into another country and expect their citizens to pay my bills.


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## Fresh2salt (Jul 16, 2004)

Hello No make them pay there own way !!!!!!!!!!!


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

O noes... Back to the dinosaur debate! The birds are their descendents... ah, I dont have the energy to do that all over again :laugh:



diddye said:


> Simple question to blacksunshine. If you're all for brining all the tired hungry, sick etc...is there a limit?


Well, this is the real question...


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

b_ack51 said:


> Blacksunshine....from your posts, i can deduct one of a couple things.
> 
> 1. You are/were an illegal alien
> 2. Your family is/was illegals
> ...


Nope your way off. My family has always been here. Every generation of my family has always been in america. before your people boated over here and started invading my country we were here. And we are still here. Even after most of southern california was stolen from my family. We stayed. some were taken and deported by the invaders of our land. some stayed under the radar. some came back. But trust me when I say I have much more right to my opinion then any of you to yours. As far as I'm concearned you are all illegals. because you came here illegally. Just as you point the finger at those that come here now and call them illegal. you all came over in the exact same manner. fleeing from your countries because you wanted a better life. but you treaded on my lawn to get that better life. Thats what gives me the right to point the finger right back at you. because the fact is you all are illegals. 1890s? And what your black asian is that supose to have soem significance to me? 
My people were here since the dawn of man. You figure that one out.

I'm simply pointing out that you are all hypocrates for trying to deny these people a chance to live the american dream that your grandfolk all came here to live having put nothing into the system and bring nothing with them what gave them the right to stay, to become a contributing member of our society? and why is it now that you and your familys are established here do you deny another peoples the right to do the same?
Americas slogan. "Bring us your tired, your poor and your sick." Did the slogan change after you got here and kicked the residents out?
[/quote]

And like I said before, your people stole the land from single cell organisms!









My grandparents came to this country LEGALLY. They paid all their dues, taxes, fees, even joined the military and were both granddads were part of Dday on omaha beach. These immigrants are here differently, how they are illegal. They didn't follow the US process, they didn't pay their dues, fees, taxes, etc.

I cannot just walk into another country and expect their citizens to pay my bills.
[/quote]

Seriously...if we're getting nit picky on whos land is whos...then it belongs to the africans right? Who beget the europeans and asians who then crossed the land bridge to america who then became the native americans. Theres a statue of limitations folks! And its not like its the mexicans either who actually are half spanish. So i guess adam and eve own the world.


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## CichlidAddict (Jul 1, 2005)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> Even after most of southern california was stolen from my family.


Your family used to own most of southern cali? You were rich!!

Seriously, get over it. Countries were formed by war. Period.

And I'm sick of people (those who voted yes) thinking everybody deserves something for nothing.
If you don't follow the legal process, you don't deserve legal benefits.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

Yeah, crying about how your land was stolen by settlers is lame.

In the end, land was stolen from someone or something. Think about nature... and how people are destroying it...

but now we have rules and laws... that govern the land and keep you safe.

Legally can only apply if there are laws... therefore, your argument of how everyone was illegal is invalid.


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## illnino (Mar 6, 2004)

screw those pieces of sh*t, get out of our CUNTry


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

LOL I love how your guys argument just disregards the brutality of your forefathers. saying Oh our law wasn't imposed then so it didn't count.
lol yeah land is formed by war. except when its done by other countries. lol typical hypocritical American response.



CichlidAddict said:


> Even after most of southern california was stolen from my family.


Your family used to own most of southern cali? You were rich!!

Seriously, get over it. Countries were formed by war. Period.

And I'm sick of people (those who voted yes) thinking everybody deserves something for nothing.
If you don't follow the legal process, you don't deserve legal benefits.








[/quote]

something for nothing? they are willing to work. they are willing to put forth more effort if they are allowed to. Something for nothing? hardly they are willing to work harder then mose Americans.


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## lament configuration (Jun 22, 2003)

illnino said:


> screw those pieces of sh*t, get out of our CUNTry


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> Even after most of southern california was stolen from my family.


Your family used to own most of southern cali? You were rich!!

Seriously, get over it. Countries were formed by war. Period.

And I'm sick of people (those who voted yes) thinking everybody deserves something for nothing.
If you don't follow the legal process, you don't deserve legal benefits.








[/quote]

something for nothing? they are willing to work. they are willing to put forth more effort if they are allowed to. Something for nothing? hardly they are willing to work harder then mose Americans.
[/quote]

The bottom line is they're illegal...and cheating the people who do it legally who spend time and money. Face it, you can't argue around that. Try all you can and as much as you are against the "white man" cheating native americans, all your doing is continuing the trend by cheating legal americans. Sooooo.....imo you're as bad as them. Congrats. Hypocrite.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

diddye said:


> Even after most of southern california was stolen from my family.


Your family used to own most of southern cali? You were rich!!

Seriously, get over it. Countries were formed by war. Period.

And I'm sick of people (those who voted yes) thinking everybody deserves something for nothing.
If you don't follow the legal process, you don't deserve legal benefits.








[/quote]

something for nothing? they are willing to work. they are willing to put forth more effort if they are allowed to. Something for nothing? hardly they are willing to work harder then mose Americans.
[/quote]

The bottom line is they're illegal...and cheating the people who do it legally who spend time and money. Face it, you can't argue around that. Try all you can and as much as you are against the "white man" cheating native americans, all your doing is continuing the trend by cheating legal americans. Sooooo.....imo you're as bad as them. Congrats. Hypocrite.
[/quote]

LOL. Sure. I just don't see it a problem cheating the "white man" since the "white man" has no problem cheating them. I simply think that there needs to be a different set of rules when your talking about the indiginous people as opposed to immigrants that come here from overseas. But to you an illegal is an illegal. And as far as I'm concerned you're just as much an illegal as you think they are. So f*ck it were all hypocrates. Welcome to america. thats what this country is founded on so why not continue the trend.


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## acestro (Jul 7, 2003)

Wait.

Wait.

Wait.

So, should American LEGAL immigrants feel guilty for the forefathers? If my great grandfather came from Austria? Should I feel guilty about slavery even though most of my ancestors missed that boat by a few decades? This paying for the 'sins of fathers' stuff only works if the actual 'fathers' did it.

What about someone legally here from Latin America? Going through all the crap they have to just to be legal citizens..... and now they have to pay for the children of illegal immigrants?

Ultimately I say this almost encourages more illegal immigration to get in here and then have children that will support the family out of the country. It's a slippery slope and I dont know where I stand, but I know my g/f was born in Guatemala and is here legally and has dealt with some crap just to work towards being a legal U.S. citizen.


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## flyboy (May 11, 2004)

I don't understand the rationality, if you can call it such, of some people. How are Mexicans indigenous to the U.S.A? Yes, some Mexican settlers occupied UNCLAIMED territories such as southern Texas and Southern California, however you fail to realize that do did American Settlers. After Mexico declared independence they wanted to expand just like the U.S. And the war was not caused by the American Government, it was the settlers already in Texas that had troubles with the Mexican government. The mexican governemnt wanted Texas, but the settlers did not want to be a part of Mexico. Thus they declared themselves as an independent body and wanted to be annexed into the US.

I respect those who have come here legally, because it takes a lot of work. A majority of legal immigrants will tell you they feel cheated by illegal immigrants because they have essentially cut the line. They bypass any legal process. Yes, I feel for those who live in poverty in Mexico, as well as in other countries, but can the US financially afford to care for all these immigrants. That is the problem. I wish the Mexican government would get THEIR act together and take care of their people and stop blaming the US for their shortcomings. They encourage illegal immigration. Why? Because the revenue from illegals bringing back the money they earned is the mexican governemt's second largest source of income.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Just one more reason that people need to stop paying taxes. Another is that I am taxed (cut) more per week than most of those that support this aid make in one month, its mine and everyones' money being wasted.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Exactly acestro. Some people expect us to pay for the sins of people 100-200 years ago. Statute of limitations...we can't be condemned forever.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

diddye said:


> Exactly acestro. Some people expect us to pay for the sins of people 100-200 years ago. Statute of limitations...we can't be condemned forever.


I'm not saying that anyone should be condemed. i'm simply stating that you should look at the situation less defensivly. and understand that it is a tough situation and that it cannot be answered with a simply send them all home. They are part of our culture, they are part of our society, illegal or not they do contribute to our America. just as many immigrants before them. But you look down upon them as rodents that should be shooed away rather then people that are simply trying to live.
most come here. work our fields for the season. Make a little cash and go home. those that stay if they have a child here. Call it an anchor baby. No. It is an american citizen. And should that child not at least have the chance to get the lowest level of our public schooling? Its not like were talking about sending them to harvard.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> If you think about it you're all anchor babies.


not really. considering there were no immigration laws until like early to mid 1900. and if your parents came over legally your not anyway. stupid people have to stop complaining about f*cking pilgrims. for fu*ks sake. get over it. they came like 400 years ago when this country was hardly populated. indians got screwed over sucks but we can't undo it now.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> Exactly acestro. Some people expect us to pay for the sins of people 100-200 years ago. Statute of limitations...we can't be condemned forever.


I'm not saying that anyone should be condemed. i'm simply stating that you should look at the situation less defensivly. and understand that it is a tough situation and that it cannot be answered with a simply send them all home. They are part of our culture, they are part of our society, illegal or not they do contribute to our America. just as many immigrants before them. But you look down upon them as rodents that should be shooed away rather then people that are simply trying to live.
most come here. work our fields for the season. Make a little cash and go home. those that stay if they have a child here. Call it an anchor baby. No. It is an american citizen. And should that child not at least have the chance to get the lowest level of our public schooling? Its not like were talking about sending them to harvard.
[/quote]

What do you base all that on? Personal emotion? Moral responsibility? Both are subjective and irrelevant in dominant world.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

McDoddridge said:


> Uh no. Why should AMERICANS have to pay, and pay more in fact espeically if they're out of state then illegals?! If they're anchor babies, my solution is this. You cheated your way into the system and had a baby so you could stay here. If thats the case, you are allowed to stay in the US until your kid is 18 yrs of age....then we deport your ass back to your country. Your kid is a adult now and he should pay for his own self from then on. If he wants to go back to his "mother country" so be it. But the parent isn't gonna mooch off the law abiding taxpayers anymore.


 I say f*ck it. We pay for all you illegals that came her on boats so why not pay for the ones that walked here. At least they put billions of dollars into the system each year. just like everyone else. Except they will never claim it. So go ahead and let their kids get an education and be a member of society. would you rather they remain ignorant and leach off the ssytem or get an education and pay their own way and then also take care of their parents so that you don't have to.
[/quote]

yah too bad they take more out of the system than they put back
[/quote]

LOL. yeah? show me some proof of that. 
because what is put into SSI alone is in the billions. and far outweights what they actually take back out.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> Uh no. Why should AMERICANS have to pay, and pay more in fact espeically if they're out of state then illegals?! If they're anchor babies, my solution is this. You cheated your way into the system and had a baby so you could stay here. If thats the case, you are allowed to stay in the US until your kid is 18 yrs of age....then we deport your ass back to your country. Your kid is a adult now and he should pay for his own self from then on. If he wants to go back to his "mother country" so be it. But the parent isn't gonna mooch off the law abiding taxpayers anymore.


 I say f*ck it. We pay for all you illegals that came her on boats so why not pay for the ones that walked here. At least they put billions of dollars into the system each year. just like everyone else. Except they will never claim it. So go ahead and let their kids get an education and be a member of society. would you rather they remain ignorant and leach off the ssytem or get an education and pay their own way and then also take care of their parents so that you don't have to.
[/quote]

yah too bad they take more out of the system than they put back
[/quote]

LOL. yeah? show me some proof of that. 
because what is put into SSI alone is in the billions. and far outweights what they actually take back out.
[/quote]

Theres been many many studies done that show illegals take a lot more then they give. That information has been posted in these types of threads...just search oh pfury. There was a study done recently that found on average, it takes about 3 generations before illegal immigrants contibute a positive value overall to the country. This is due to importing a poorly educated, unskilled, poverty stricken population. It only makes sense. Say all you want about SS, but heck, i'd give that all back if my hospitals were back open, roads are less crowded/dont have to worry about accidents which also will lower my premium, housing is lower, crime was lower, etc etc.

Again blacksunshine...this is about illegal immigrant students NOT american students who have illegal parents. Get that straight. This is the 3rd time i've said it. Let me repeat it again and put it in caps so you can see it better. Its only the first sentence in the link. Sheesh.

*Students who came to the country illegally could apply for state financial aid when they attend California colleges and universities under legislation approved Tuesday by the Assembly in a party-line vote.*

Heres some links blacksunshine. Lets see what you think:

http://www.cis.org/topics/costs.html

"The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility. "

http://www.cis.org/topics/wagesandpoverty.html

"Because immigration increases the supply of U.S. labor, it reduces wages or makes jobs more scarce for natives. Job competition between immigrants and natives is especially fierce at the bottom of the labor market, because so many immigrants are employed in the low-skilled/low-wage segments of the economy. When the average American wage exceeds the average Mexican wage by a factor of ten, even the most menial American job can be a forceful inducement to emigrate. "


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

diddye said:


> Uh no. Why should AMERICANS have to pay, and pay more in fact espeically if they're out of state then illegals?! If they're anchor babies, my solution is this. You cheated your way into the system and had a baby so you could stay here. If thats the case, you are allowed to stay in the US until your kid is 18 yrs of age....then we deport your ass back to your country. Your kid is a adult now and he should pay for his own self from then on. If he wants to go back to his "mother country" so be it. But the parent isn't gonna mooch off the law abiding taxpayers anymore.


 I say f*ck it. We pay for all you illegals that came her on boats so why not pay for the ones that walked here. At least they put billions of dollars into the system each year. just like everyone else. Except they will never claim it. So go ahead and let their kids get an education and be a member of society. would you rather they remain ignorant and leach off the ssytem or get an education and pay their own way and then also take care of their parents so that you don't have to.
[/quote]

yah too bad they take more out of the system than they put back
[/quote]

LOL. yeah? show me some proof of that. 
because what is put into SSI alone is in the billions. and far outweights what they actually take back out.
[/quote]

Theres been many many studies done that show illegals take a lot more then they give. That information has been posted in these types of threads...just search oh pfury. There was a study done recently that found on average, it takes about 3 generations before illegal immigrants contibute a positive value overall to the country. This is due to importing a poorly educated, unskilled, poverty stricken population. It only makes sense. Say all you want about SS, but heck, i'd give that all back if my hospitals were back open, roads are less crowded/dont have to worry about accidents which also will lower my premium, housing is lower, crime was lower, etc etc.

Again blacksunshine...this is about illegal immigrant students NOT american students who have illegal parents. Get that straight. This is the 3rd time i've said it. Let me repeat it again and put it in caps so you can see it better. Its only the first sentence in the link. Sheesh.

*Students who came to the country illegally could apply for state financial aid when they attend California colleges and universities under legislation approved Tuesday by the Assembly in a party-line vote.*
[/quote]

Sorry if you have low asperations for yourself and are concerned that juan pablo is going to take up your seat in community collage.

But if a child is raised in this country with out values and morals and under our society is that child not for all intents an purposes an american? should they not at that point be allowed to attend out community collages?
and its not illegals that are overflowing the roads and hospitals its your fellow americans.

if you don't lik it don't live in palces that are heavly populated by people. go live in a po dunk ******* town.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Here blacksunshine....a very in depth article to debunk your theory about social security:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back505.html

Um, you never answered my many questions or even gave an educated response. You think this bill is about community colleges? Its about all colleges fool. You're still skirting the fact that we're debating illegal students and legal students of illegal immigrants. They're very different things.

Oh yea....and illegals aren't the problem? Do you remember may 1, 2006? The "day without an immigrant march" Ya, my commute to work was cut from 50 minutes to 15 minutes. My day w/o an immigrant was the best day i had in all of may. No lines, no traffic, no congestion no nothing. It felt like 1980 all over again.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

diddye said:


> Here blacksunshine....a very in depth article to debunk your theory about social security:
> 
> http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back505.html
> 
> ...


I remember that day also.

I usually leave for work around 4:00 because I have a long drive and I must gas up my hungery arab oil sucking v8(s) (girlfriend for the passed month has being driving a big block hehe) and there are usually about 50 packed into my local chevron buying sh*t and that morning I was the customer inside the store.


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

For the most part I agree with diddye. I don't live in an area with allot of illegal immigrants hell I don't think there are any within 20 miles of my house. But blacksunshine why can't they pay for there education out of there own pocket and why should they get government benefits? It sounds allot like stealing to me.

Make sure you work hard because there are 1000's on welfare depending on you.

BTW social security is a transfer fund the money that goes in every month leaves within a month.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> [ I say f*ck it. We pay for all you illegals that came her on boats so why not pay for the ones that walked here. At least they put billions of dollars into the system each year. just like everyone else. Except they will never claim it. So go ahead and let their kids get an education and be a member of society. would you rather they remain ignorant and leach off the ssytem or get an education and pay their own way and then also take care of their parents so that you don't have to.


No one who supports illegal immigration ever has an educated answer to the real question: At what point does the situation reach a critical watershed of too many illegals competing for too few resources? At the rate we're going, by the middle of this century, if the situation is not remedied, America will resemble in many ways a 3rd world country. It already does in many parts of California. Water alone is a serious consideration.

The comparison to previous generations of immigrants is absurd. Check the statistics on levels of immigration, its' relation to the job market, its' relation to supply and demand, and it relation to available resources. What is happening now is unprecedented in AMerica and resembles more of what went down in the waning years of the Roman empire.

illegal immigration is obviously not fair to those who wait years to get in legally.

Here's an idea. Anyone who serves three years overseas in the military gets citizenship. We'll need the soldiers against the Islamofascists and North Koreans.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

Let me nu8t shell it for you since you all seem to be pretty simple minded. 
Illegals aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Accept that fact because it is simply a fact. you're not going to be able to deport over 35million people. 
So does it not seem more in line to rather then stick those people who are going to be here ANYWAYS with the worst of our jobs and the shittyest contiditions of life our country has to offer. Wouldnt it make more sense to give those amongt the illegals are willing to put in the time and effort to get grades that would allow them to attend one of our collages or universitys the oppertunity to do so? Americans get financial aid. so don't act like they are taking away from that. But for those that are able to adapt to our culture thru their lives living here if they are educated in a better way then just the basics maybe that will allow the turnover rate for them being a productive citizen to drop down. and get these people who are going to be here anyways the means to do for themselves? Or would you rather have every pablo juan and lupita taking your order at jack in the box? This is nothing to do with allowing them to come over here. They are already here. Illegal or not they are living here. lik it or not.

As to them "cutting" in line. They aren't even allowed IN line. So how do you figure they are cutting? Do you even have a clue as to what requirements are set forth to allow someone to come over here? Its not a matter of waiting in line for your turn.
Poor and poorly educated people from other countries are simply not allowed in.



Fargo said:


> America will resemble in many ways a 3rd world country.
> 
> The comparison to previous generations of immigrants is absurd. Check the statistics on levels of immigration, its' relation to the job market, its' relation to supply and demand, and it relation to available resources. What is happening now is unprecedented in AMerica and resembles more of what went down in the waning years of the Roman empire.
> 
> ...


You pose some worthy of debate points here. however it is the infrastructure of our nation that is taking it down the shitter not immigrants. Actually I take that back immigrants are the problem. And that problem does stem back to the early days of our society. And it is our industrial infrastructure and outsourscing that is depelting our local resources. As well as it is our selves that are pricing ourselves out of our own country. 
the waining resources is eventual reguardless of how many people are let thru. Perhaps some of these people that are taking our resources to gain etter education that is simply not avalible in their home countries will then take that knowlage back and try to build a better way there.

As to allowing people to fight for their citizenship. Sure thats fine.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> Let me nu8t shell it for you since you all seem to be pretty simple minded.
> Illegals aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Accept that fact because it is simply a fact. you're not going to be able to deport over 35million people.
> So does it not seem more in line to rather then stick those people who are going to be here ANYWAYS with the worst of our jobs and the shittyest contiditions of life our country has to offer. Wouldnt it make more sense to give those amongt the illegals are willing to put in the time and effort to get grades that would allow them to attend one of our collages or universitys the oppertunity to do so? Americans get financial aid. so don't act like they are taking away from that. But for those that are able to adapt to our culture thru their lives living here if they are educated in a better way then just the basics maybe that will allow the turnover rate for them being a productive citizen to drop down. and get these people who are going to be here anyways the means to do for themselves? Or would you rather have every pablo juan and lupita taking your order at jack in the box? This is nothing to do with allowing them to come over here. They are already here. Illegal or not they are living here. lik it or not.
> 
> ...


dude let me put it in a nut shell for you (thats nut spelled N-U-T, no 8) they came here illegally and as such not only should they not get college education money because that only promotes more illegal immigration but they should get no benefits, and no schooling. and hey guess what there is a simple way to deprt all illegals living in this country. make the penalties for hiring an illegal so high that no one will hire them. then they will have no jobs and just go back to mexico because guess what the only reason they are here is for money. they want their own culture and if they can't get any money here they'll leave. problem solved.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

"As to them "cutting" in line. They aren't even allowed IN line. So how do you figure they are cutting? Do you even have a clue as to what requirements are set forth to allow someone to come over here? Its not a matter of waiting in line for your turn.
Poor and poorly educated people from other countries are simply not allowed in."

Yep....thats true. But you know whats funny? Almost all of the illegals are poor and uneducated. Ain't that a kicker? I dont see why a country would encourage unskilled uneducated people if they could get educated people who can contribute. Its not rocket science. I'd rather have somebody come here and be a doctor then cut my grass. And no, we aren't gonna deport 20 million people. I'm not advocating that but it has to stop somewhere. Maybe like if you've been here 10 years then you stay but if not, see ya.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

diddye said:


> "As to them "cutting" in line. They aren't even allowed IN line. So how do you figure they are cutting? Do you even have a clue as to what requirements are set forth to allow someone to come over here? Its not a matter of waiting in line for your turn.
> Poor and poorly educated people from other countries are simply not allowed in."
> 
> Yep....thats true. But you know whats funny? Almost all of the illegals are poor and uneducated. Ain't that a kicker? I dont see why a country would encourage unskilled uneducated people if they could get educated people who can contribute. Its not rocket science. I'd rather have somebody come here and be a doctor then cut my grass. And no, we aren't gonna deport 20 million people. I'm not advocating that but it has to stop somewhere. Maybe like if you've been here 10 years then you stay but if not, see ya.


i see, so the longer that they've been breaking the law the more rewarded they are? and how are you gonna tell whos been here for 10 yrs ask them and hope for an honest response? thats just nonsense, thats the same as just giving amnesty to every1


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

McDoddridge said:


> "As to them "cutting" in line. They aren't even allowed IN line. So how do you figure they are cutting? Do you even have a clue as to what requirements are set forth to allow someone to come over here? Its not a matter of waiting in line for your turn.
> Poor and poorly educated people from other countries are simply not allowed in."
> 
> Yep....thats true. But you know whats funny? Almost all of the illegals are poor and uneducated. Ain't that a kicker? I dont see why a country would encourage unskilled uneducated people if they could get educated people who can contribute. Its not rocket science. I'd rather have somebody come here and be a doctor then cut my grass. And no, we aren't gonna deport 20 million people. I'm not advocating that but it has to stop somewhere. Maybe like if you've been here 10 years then you stay but if not, see ya.


Because frankly they are willing to do the sh*t jobs that most americans wont do or would rather not do. I do aggree that there needs to be some level of resaonable middle ground to come to a resoloution that actually addresses the issue that these people are here and they aren't going anywhere. So it would benifit us as a society to allow those of their children that go to schools with your and my children to have the oppertunity to do better for themselves with some basic funding would in the long run be alot cheaper then allowing them and generations of their familys to continue the cycle of being 2nd class citizens. Because when that child has a child of their own if they are born to a ill educated person they themselves will be ill educated. And their offspring will also be. And so instead of heading it off at the first generation we would be supporting that family for generations down the line. And all those generations will be Americans and have FULL access to all the social benifits any other american does. So do you not aggree that it would be a better thing to shell out a few thousand in financial aid to a student that is willing to apply themselves to getting that education. Or to spend hundereds of thousands of dollars supporting generations of their ignorant offspring.

Anyhow I've spent too much of my day on this topic. And since I'm home now I'm going to enjoy my fish tanks and wife. I mean my Wife and fish tanks. 
Peace.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> Because frankly they are willing to do the sh*t jobs that most americans wont do or would rather not do.


And in by doing that, they help keep wages low. Why would any American work ( I mean a real f*cking one) for any wage that is outdated and imposed by their shitty low wage supporting government ? In America you try to change sh*t not eat it. The government & big buisness doesn't love illegal mexicans just their low standard.


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## LouDiB (May 22, 2006)

I want to move to California, change my name to Miguel Constanzos, and proclaim that I an illegal.

I will then GET FINANCIAL AID. Because right now, living with two parents, being a white male 19 years of age, working through school, I don't get sh*t from Uncle Sam.

If my mother and father were seperated, however, one of them would be required to contribute. Or perhaps, if my father just walked out on us, I would GET PAID TO GO TO COUNTY COLLEGE.

Is that a joke or what??

I am no better off than any single parent child. I have a house, and food (sometimes provided).

My computer and internet - Mine

Insurance/Car- Mine

Dinners -Usually on me

I know a girl that makes $2000 + a semster because she is an Asian female, and her parents are seperated.

Sunshine - PLEASE STOP TIP TOEING AROUND THE ARGUEMENT in terms of the illegals *applying for financial aid.

I do believe that the illegals do have a signifigant impact on our economy, working jobs lazy Americans would rather not do (ie picking maticulousy at blueberries in New Jersey).

But I do not agree they should get rewarded for coming here illegally and then taking a SPOT in a community classroom. Yes, taking a SPOT.

how about all of the poor white americans such as myself, who can't receive financial aid.

POOR ME!!!!!!!!*


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## Scrappy (Oct 21, 2004)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> Because frankly they are willing to do the sh*t jobs that most Americans wont do or would rather not do.


They don't do the crappy jobs that Americans won't do. Plain and simple, they work for less than Americans. With no illegals in this country to work for substandard wages, the employers would be forced to pay reasonable wages for these jobs. It's the business owners that are making huge profits off of what's basically slave labor. When a high school kid won't take a summer job because it pays peanuts, but an illegal makes a livelihood out if, there's something wrong there.

Btw, I find the governments acceptance of Mexican illegals very offensive. My parents came to this country legally, and became citizens legally. In the 70's our government granted citizenship to Filipinos who enlisted in the military. My dad served 10 years in the Army. That's how you *EARN* your citizenship.

Maybe they should offer that program to the Mexican illegals who want to leach off of our government.

Btw, I have no problem with deporting all of the illegals in our nation. There are millions of people from hundreds of other countries that would be willing to come here and work legally.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Louie D said:


> how about all of the poor white americans such as myself, who can't receive financial aid.
> 
> POOR ME!!!!!!!!


Uncle Sam was injuried in the '50s and died in the '60s.

You as a white male are no longer viewed as valuable. Your political voice has been weaken, your jobs have been outsourced by low standard foreigners, your military position has been defaced.

Relativism and total acceptance will kill America


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

This thread is proving that America is going to sh*t. The best arguments for granting full amnesty - complete with college funding - is that we can't stop illegal immigration so educate them. But we can't possible educate them all at the rate they're coming here. And we get too much refuse in the meantime. The entire argument is a surrender to an America without borders.

These preliminary steps will go far in beginning to solve the problem. Shut the border down; deport all illegal immigrants in American prisons - that's roughly 25% of the prison population; create American jobs through an exponential increase in border patrol; demand all illegal immigrants here less than 5 years and of military age be conscripted for military service as a token of loyalty (After all, they all claim they want to be true blue Americans); Remove all welfare payments to able-bodied American males capable of working on farms, at landscaping, construction, etc. for a FAIR wage; Stop outsourcing American manufacturing to Central America, since those jobs get outsourced eventually to China, which drives impoverished Mexicans here; Demand, by threat of force, that the Mexican govt. promote fair trade and free markets, build, more schools, etc. We should be encouraging democracy in Central and South America before Iraq. Finally, have the oath of office mean something by drawing up legislation in congress that demands impeachment procedings for any president or Governor that doesn't support strict border enforcement until the situation is under control. That would incriminate Clinton, Bush, Arnold, and countless others. If our own leaders won't abide by the law, they should be removed. Enforce automatic incarceration for employers that hire illegals. They can take the spots of the deported illegal alien inmates.


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## LouDiB (May 22, 2006)

Fargo said:


> This thread is proving that America is going to sh*t. The best arguments for granting full amnesty - complete with college funding - is that we can't stop illegal immigration so educate them. But we can't possible educate them all at the rate they're coming here. And we get too much refuse in the meantime. The entire argument is a surrender to an America without borders.
> 
> These preliminary steps will go far in beginning to solve the problem. Shut the border down; deport all illegal immigrants in American prisons - that's roughly 25% of the prison population; create American jobs through an exponential increase in border patrol; demand all illegal immigrants here less than 5 years and of military age be conscripted for military service as a token of loyalty (After all, they all claim they want to be true blue Americans); Remove all welfare payments to able-bodied American males capable of working on farms, at landscaping, construction, etc. for a FAIR wage; Stop outsourcing American manufacturing to Central America, since those jobs get outsourced eventually to China, which drives impoverished Mexicans here; Demand, by threat of force, that the Mexican govt. promote fair trade and free markets, build, more schools, etc. We should be encouraging democracy in Central and South America before Iraq. Finally, have the oath of office mean something by drawing up legislation in congress that demands impeachment procedings for any president or Governor that doesn't support strict border enforcement until the situation is under control. That would incriminate Clinton, Bush, Arnold, and countless others. If our own leaders won't abide by the law, they should be removed. *Enforce automatic incarceration for employers that hire illegals*. They can take the spots of the deported illegal alien inmates.


Comon...you know you're going to get a protest from the Non-Americans...we can't have that now

I just dont understand how you can protest something that SHOULD be a law


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## User (May 31, 2004)

Louie D said:


> This thread is proving that America is going to sh*t. The best arguments for granting full amnesty - complete with college funding - is that we can't stop illegal immigration so educate them. But we can't possible educate them all at the rate they're coming here. And we get too much refuse in the meantime. The entire argument is a surrender to an America without borders.
> 
> These preliminary steps will go far in beginning to solve the problem. Shut the border down; deport all illegal immigrants in American prisons - that's roughly 25% of the prison population; create American jobs through an exponential increase in border patrol; demand all illegal immigrants here less than 5 years and of military age be conscripted for military service as a token of loyalty (After all, they all claim they want to be true blue Americans); Remove all welfare payments to able-bodied American males capable of working on farms, at landscaping, construction, etc. for a FAIR wage; Stop outsourcing American manufacturing to Central America, since those jobs get outsourced eventually to China, which drives impoverished Mexicans here; Demand, by threat of force, that the Mexican govt. promote fair trade and free markets, build, more schools, etc. We should be encouraging democracy in Central and South America before Iraq. Finally, have the oath of office mean something by drawing up legislation in congress that demands impeachment procedings for any president or Governor that doesn't support strict border enforcement until the situation is under control. That would incriminate Clinton, Bush, Arnold, and countless others. If our own leaders won't abide by the law, they should be removed. *Enforce automatic incarceration for employers that hire illegals*. They can take the spots of the deported illegal alien inmates.


*Comon...you know you're going to get a protest from the Non-Americans...we can't have that now*

I just dont understand how you can protest something that SHOULD be a law















[/quote]

That would be the relativism that I stated.

It doesn't matter what they might "protest".


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

Louie D said:


> These preliminary steps will go far in beginning to solve the problem. Shut the border down; deport all illegal immigrants in American prisons - that's roughly 25% of the prison population; create American jobs through an exponential increase in border patrol; demand all illegal immigrants here less than 5 years and of military age be conscripted for military service as a token of loyalty (After all, they all claim they want to be true blue Americans); Remove all welfare payments to able-bodied American males capable of working on farms, at landscaping, construction, etc. for a FAIR wage; Stop outsourcing American manufacturing to Central America, since those jobs get outsourced eventually to China, which drives impoverished Mexicans here; Demand, by threat of force, that the Mexican govt. promote fair trade and free markets, build, more schools, etc. We should be encouraging democracy in Central and South America before Iraq. Finally, have the oath of office mean something by drawing up legislation in congress that demands impeachment procedings for any president or Governor that doesn't support strict border enforcement until the situation is under control. That would incriminate Clinton, Bush, Arnold, and countless others. If our own leaders won't abide by the law, they should be removed. *Enforce automatic incarceration for employers that hire illegals*. They can take the spots of the deported illegal alien inmates.


Comon...you know you're going to get a protest from the Non-Americans...we can't have that now

I just dont understand how you can protest something that SHOULD be a law















[/quote]

f*ck 'em. BTW, it goes without saying that the majority of Americans are completely in favor of my sollutions.


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## LouDiB (May 22, 2006)

I was speaking in sarcasm user


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## User (May 31, 2004)

I still had to jump on it.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2006)

Talk doesnt cook rice.


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## LouDiB (May 22, 2006)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Talk doesnt cook rice.


I guess so; But then again, I just realized I am sitting in front of a COMPUTER. Politics is fun to talk about, but meaningless to debate sometimes.


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## User (May 31, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Talk doesnt cook rice.


Exactly.

That's why Lebanon was clusterfucked, because talk doesn't cook rice ?? That is why civilians are starting to patrol the southern border because talk doesn't cook rice ???

You have never enjoyed when I move to the right for shits and giggles have ya ?


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## LouDiB (May 22, 2006)

User said:


> Talk doesnt cook rice.


Exactly.

That's why Lebanon was clusterfucked, because talk doesn't cook rice ?? That is why civilians are starting to patrol the southern border because talk doesn't cook rice ???

You have never enjoyed when I move to the right for shits and giggles have ya ?
[/quote]

shows that you are open minded


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## Liquid (Aug 24, 2004)

Fargo said:


> The comparison to previous generations of immigrants is absurd. Check the statistics on levels of immigration, its' relation to the job market, its' relation to supply and demand, and it relation to available resources. What is happening now is unprecedented in AMerica and resembles more of what went down in the waning years of the Roman empire.
> 
> illegal immigration is obviously not fair to those who wait years to get in legally.
> 
> Here's an idea. Anyone who serves three years overseas in the military gets citizenship. We'll need the soldiers against the Islamofascists and North Koreans.










couldnt agree more, too lazy to fill out the proper paperwork and wait a year to be here legally, but youve got all the wind in the world to through bullshit rhetoric around like this country was taken from you, lets just say i indulge your theory for the sake of debate, if your mexican im betting your claiming to be of apache or comanche decent or something simular, but i bet youve got not one ounce of black foot, cherokee, or mohawk in you, before america was colonized there wasnt a "united native territories of america", every tribe claimed stake to a piece of land spoke a diffrent tongue from each other and had different cultures, gods, ect. and made war with each other killing each other off way before the spanish, the puritans ect. got involved..

so its safe to say if you understood anything, you understood the neccasity of war to preserve your own land, culture and heritage from each other, as well as you well understood what it was to have victory and lay claim to a piece of land and push out your enemies whether it be an enemy tribe or the white man, so when you eventually lose all stakes why would it make any sense to forget these ancient laws of war so quickly.

you can continue to cry about this retarded sh*t and use it as an excuse to continue to break the law and lay victom, or you can have a little bit of self respect, do it the legal way like everyone else had to before you. unless of course the majority of illegals "true" intention is to work here seasonaly, and take the american dollar back with them to mexico and live like kings, in which case fargo has a good idea that the borders should be completely shutdown, a wall, fence, whatever it takes, and if you truely want to become an american citizen youll have to fight for her first, minimal of 3 years, you want a check from the government







you better earn it..

also i hear an awfull lot comments like "illegals do the jobs that american dont want to do", bullshit, ive been cut throat many times and waaay underbid on a few jobs simply because the competition employs illegals and i refuse too..


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## flyboy (May 11, 2004)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> and don't bother doing a grammer/tyop correction to me. it simply shows that you lack a valid counter argument.
> And your lack of addressing the issue with anything more then a "deport them" solidifys that.
> Move along son let the grown ups talk.


I understand that mistakes can be made while typing on a computer, especially when typing very rapidly. However, it is always a good idea to try your best. I personally hate misspelling words or using bad grammer because it makes you look like an idiot. But that's just me. Not to mention the profanity in your posts vindicates the fact that you are acting childish.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Fargo said:


> This thread is proving that America is going to sh*t. The best arguments for granting full amnesty - complete with college funding - is that we can't stop illegal immigration so educate them. But we can't possible educate them all at the rate they're coming here. And we get too much refuse in the meantime. The entire argument is a surrender to an America without borders.
> 
> These preliminary steps will go far in beginning to solve the problem. Shut the border down; deport all illegal immigrants in American prisons - that's roughly 25% of the prison population; create American jobs through an exponential increase in border patrol; demand all illegal immigrants here less than 5 years and of military age be conscripted for military service as a token of loyalty (After all, they all claim they want to be true blue Americans); Remove all welfare payments to able-bodied American males capable of working on farms, at landscaping, construction, etc. for a FAIR wage; Stop outsourcing American manufacturing to Central America, since those jobs get outsourced eventually to China, which drives impoverished Mexicans here; Demand, by threat of force, that the Mexican govt. promote fair trade and free markets, build, more schools, etc. We should be encouraging democracy in Central and South America before Iraq. Finally, have the oath of office mean something by drawing up legislation in congress that demands impeachment procedings for any president or Governor that doesn't support strict border enforcement until the situation is under control. That would incriminate Clinton, Bush, Arnold, and countless others. If our own leaders won't abide by the law, they should be removed. Enforce automatic incarceration for employers that hire illegals. They can take the spots of the deported illegal alien inmates.


If you ran for president and did that, hell would freeze over b/c i'd vote democrat.


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## Doddridge (Aug 7, 2006)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> Riiiggghhtt. because thats worked for the last 50 years. and don't bother doing a grammer/tyop correction to me. it simply shows that you lack a valid counter argument.
> And your lack of addressing the issue with anything more then a "deport them" solidifys that.
> Move along son let the grown ups talk.


i never said anything about deporting, because its impractical at this point to believe that you can get them all. but if you remove the incentive to come here (jobs, free handouts schooling and college) they will leave or at leaast stop coming. read my whole post next time, and if you did read the whole post try to actually understand what i said. you're the one who needs to gtfo because your solution is to keep giving them handouts, and while i notice that you're sitting nice and comfy in washington, i am down here in southern california where things are turning to sh*t. our schools are suffering, the traffic is unbearable, and emergency rooms are shutting down. so stfu about a subject you obviously have no experience with and know nothing about.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

diddye said:


> If you ran for president and did that, hell would freeze over b/c i'd vote democrat.


I'm not a Democrat, but thanks anyway. If I ran for president, I'd get shot. We're always told that problems are complicated, but every problem has a sollution. Politicians are just too neutered to act.

Another suggestion might be to offer illegal immigrant felons in prison a form of amnesty if they go overseas and fight the worst of the worst, like the Taliban or Sadr's psycopaths in Iraq. Prison is dangerous, so these guys are probably seasoned fuckers themselves.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

McDoddridge said:


> Riiiggghhtt. because thats worked for the last 50 years. and don't bother doing a grammer/tyop correction to me. it simply shows that you lack a valid counter argument.
> And your lack of addressing the issue with anything more then a "deport them" solidifys that.
> Move along son let the grown ups talk.


i never said anything about deporting, because its impractical at this point to believe that you can get them all. but if you remove the incentive to come here (jobs, free handouts schooling and college) they will leave or at leaast stop coming. read my whole post next time, and if you did read the whole post try to actually understand what i said. you're the one who needs to gtfo because your solution is to keep giving them handouts, and while i notice that you're sitting nice and comfy in washington, i am down here in southern california where things are turning to sh*t. our schools are suffering, the traffic is unbearable, and emergency rooms are shutting down. so stfu about a subject you obviously have no experience with and know nothing about.
[/quote]

I'm actually I'm from California born and raised. Nice try tho.







talk about needing to read the thread.

And I aggree that we do need to tighten up the borders. Especially the canadian one. But that still does nothing to aid those people that are here and aren't going anywhere. It just keeps them in the cycle of ignorance. 
BTW if you don't like southern Cali. Move.


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

b_ack51 said:


> http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_4258617
> 
> Legislators say it's not kids' fault parents brought them to California
> BY SAMANTHA YOUNG, Associated Press
> ...


 I've always beleived that the "American Dream" should be for real Americans.. not wasted on illegal wannabe's.

For every Illegal that might benifit from this- consider #1 how much more it will cost the taxpayers (Real American tax payers) and #2- even if this doesn't add the the budget of California, consider how much good that could have been done for the legal residents of Cali- getting Real American kids into college, health care, helping the save envoirment, law enforcement- or better yet.. spend that money getting them illegal parent's asses back to where they came from- then making sure they dont get back in.


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I pledge allegiance to the illegals sneaking into the United States of America, and to their rights, for which they never earned, one nation taking over ours, indivisible with taco's and espanol for all.

Maybe we oughta just give up and give in,,,







viva la illegals!!


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## Scrappy (Oct 21, 2004)

Oheye8one2 said:


> I pledge allegiance to the illegals sneaking into the United States of America, and to their rights, for which they never earned, one nation taking over ours, indivisible with taco's and espanol for all.


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## Liquid (Aug 24, 2004)

diddye said:


> This thread is proving that America is going to sh*t. The best arguments for granting full amnesty - complete with college funding - is that we can't stop illegal immigration so educate them. But we can't possible educate them all at the rate they're coming here. And we get too much refuse in the meantime. The entire argument is a surrender to an America without borders.
> 
> These preliminary steps will go far in beginning to solve the problem. Shut the border down; deport all illegal immigrants in American prisons - that's roughly 25% of the prison population; create American jobs through an exponential increase in border patrol; demand all illegal immigrants here less than 5 years and of military age be conscripted for military service as a token of loyalty (After all, they all claim they want to be true blue Americans); Remove all welfare payments to able-bodied American males capable of working on farms, at landscaping, construction, etc. for a FAIR wage; Stop outsourcing American manufacturing to Central America, since those jobs get outsourced eventually to China, which drives impoverished Mexicans here; Demand, by threat of force, that the Mexican govt. promote fair trade and free markets, build, more schools, etc. We should be encouraging democracy in Central and South America before Iraq. Finally, have the oath of office mean something by drawing up legislation in congress that demands impeachment procedings for any president or Governor that doesn't support strict border enforcement until the situation is under control. That would incriminate Clinton, Bush, Arnold, and countless others. If our own leaders won't abide by the law, they should be removed. Enforce automatic incarceration for employers that hire illegals. They can take the spots of the deported illegal alien inmates.


If you ran for president and did that, hell would freeze over b/c i'd vote democrat.
[/quote]

why because he would solve problems??







you might as well be a democrat..


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

Here's one not making the headlines: http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publi...icle_4188.shtml

Betrayed in the Line of Duty
by William F. Jasper
September 18, 2006
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While the Bush administration seeks amnesty for illegal aliens and grants immunity to a Mexican drug smuggler, it has thrown the book at two courageous Border Patrol agents. (Contact President Bush and Congress to help rectify this gross miscarriage of justice!)

Jose Alonso Compean, shown here with some of the drugs he has stopped from coming across the border, now faces 20 years in prison, based on charges by a career drug smuggler who stands to win $5 million for his testimony. (Photo courtesy of Friends of the Border Patrol.) 
Fabens, Texas - The chase was on. The suspected smuggler van turned back toward the Rio Grande and headed for Mexico. Border Patrol agent Ignacio Ramos was on his tail. Other agents were also converging on the scene. The suspect realized he wasn't going to outrun agent Ramos' vehicle, and so he abandoned his van on a levee and took off on foot. As the suspect headed into the canal, Ramos yelled for him to stop but was ignored. 
As Ramos crossed the canal, he heard gunshots. Ramos knew he was in an area where the Mexican drug cartels have grown increasingly brazen, and where Mexican police and military units often support the drug smugglers. He didn't know if, when he emerged from the canal, he would be facing an armed suspect, possibly reinforced by heavy firepower.

As he came over the levee, he could see a fellow officer, agent Jose Compean, bloodied and lying in the dirt. Sweating, heart pounding, and adrenaline pumping, Ramos raced by Compean after the smuggler, who was kicking up clouds of dust as he ran. Suddenly, the smuggler stopped and turned toward Ramos and pointed what appeared to be a gun. Agent Ramos raised his pistol and fired one shot, upon which the suspect spun around and continued running for the river. Ramos, with the danger passed, immediately lowered his pistol.

"I shot," Ramos later told reporter Sara A. Carter. "But I didn't think he was hit, because he kept running into the brush and then disappeared into it. Later, we all watched as he jumped into a van waiting for him [on the Mexican side of the border]. He seemed fine. It didn't look like he had been hit at all."

When Ramos returned to the levee, seven other Border Patrol agents were on the scene. A search of the abandoned van revealed nearly 800 pounds of marijuana. All in all, not a bad haul for 15 minutes of heart-pounding work. The agents had survived another potentially life-threatening incident without a death or serious injury. Just another day in the life of a Border Patrol agent. They had the smuggler's loot, even though the smuggler got away. Oh well, maybe they'd catch him tomorrow, when he tried another drug run.

However, it hasn't turned out that way at all. Instead, the smuggler - a Mexican national named Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila - has turned the tables on his Border Patrol pursuers. Now it is agents Ramos and Compean who face prison. They already have been fired by the Border Patrol and bankrupted by legal expenses. Agent Compean has lost his home. He and his wife and children have been forced to move in with relatives. Agent Ramos' home is in foreclosure.

Terror and Injustice

For their 15-minute pursuit of Aldrete-Davila on February 17, 2005, and for a couple of split-second decisions they made during that suspenseful chase, agents Ramos and Compean have lost a combined 15-year record of sterling service in the Border Patrol (10 years for Ramos, five for Compean). Even more, that 15-minute pursuit in the line of duty may cost each of them 20 years in prison, possibly alongside dangerous criminals they have apprehended.

*Incredibly, while agents Ramos and Compean and their families face economic ruin, emotional devastation, and real physical danger, as a result of that 15-minute chase, Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila - an admitted felon and drug smuggler - has not only gotten off scot-free, he stands to become a rich man, courtesy of the U.S. taxpayers. In a seemingly unbelievable turn of events, agents for the U.S. Department of Justice and Department of Homeland Security contacted the smuggler in Mexico and offered him complete immunity if he would testify that Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean had violated his civil rights.*

The two Border Patrol officers were arrested in SWAT-style raids on their homes and taken away in handcuffs in front of their families. By way of contrast, Aldrete-Davila, in exchange for agreeing to testify against the agents, was given free medical treatment in the United States, then escorted back to Mexico and released. He was also coached in his testimony by U.S. government officials, then brought back to the United States and trotted out as the star witness against Ramos and Compean.

*In the meantime, during his release, Aldrete-Davila was arrested again with another drug load in the same El Paso sector where Ramos and Compean had previously intercepted him. Nevertheless, he was allowed to testify against the two agents and then was released again!* He may have made many more successful drug runs into the United States since then. But he may be able to retire soon in the style of his drug-lord bosses. With encouragement and help from U.S. officials, he is suing the Border Patrol for $5 million.

Many are outraged by what from all appearances is a colossal miscarriage of justice. Members of Congress on both sides of the aisle are calling for an investigation, and a national grass-roots campaign has stirred tens of thousands of Americans to call on President Bush to intervene and grant full pardon to agents Ramos and Compean.

Rep. Ted Poe (R-Texas), who served as a prosecutor for eight years and a judge for 22 years, questions Assistant U.S. Attorney Debra Kanof's granting of immunity to a repeat felon with a huge financial interest to lie to prosecute federal law enforcement agents who were doing their jobs. "That's exactly what the overzealous prosecutor did in this case. No question about it," Rep. Poe told CNN's Casey Wian on August 21. "In my opinion, the government was on the wrong side. We ought to be more concerned about our border agents who were put in harm's way, who are shot at by these drug dealers than we are about the civil rights of the drug smugglers."

*Andy Ramirez notes that "this case is not an isolated incident. This is just the most egregious example in an ongoing campaign of intimidation and humiliation of Border Patrol line officers by Border Patrol Chief David Aguilar, Assistant Border Patrol Chief Luis Barker and others" appointed by the Bush administration.

With ludicrous orders like their "no pursuit" policy, the agency's top officials "have essentially told the field to 'stand down,'" Ramirez says. "President Bush, Aguilar, and Barker repeatedly assure us that the border security is dramatically improving, when that is absolutely, demonstrably false. And one of the worst things they are doing is destroying the morale of the Border Patrol and the will of agents to do the tough job we train them to do. A lot of the agents are saying now, 'We don't want to be the next Ramos and Compean.'"*

Yet Conservatives keep supporting the Bush agenda. Must be desperate for leadership,


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2006)

thenewamerican.com....Fargo man







Just another propagandalist these days.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> thenewamerican.com....Fargo man
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Naw, actually, thats a big story going around here. I've been following this case for about 2 weeks or so. Its legit.

http://www.dailybulletin.com/beyondborders

http://www.friendsoftheborderpatrol.com/50...os_Compean.html

http://www.sbsun.com/news/ci_4216596

Its a shame whats going on with them.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

Whats that have to do with some kids that just want to go to college and avoid that life? Are you now saying that all illegals and or immigrants are drug runners? 
What about the cracker ass peckerwoods up in Lodi that down thru sandiego that are setting up 100's of meth labs? 
Or the Homie G's down in the hood settin up crack houses? Is that all good because they are "legal" citizens?

It's a bullshit thing but really has little to do with the issue at hand. And thats promotion of education of the people that are living in this country.
Im guessing you would rather have all illegals fit this implied stereotype so that you can feel good about treating them like dirt.

But aside from that. This part of the story made me laugh.
"He left behind a van filled with nearly 800 pounds of marijuana, worth more than $1 million." HAHAHAH BULLSHIT! Mexico weed is dirt. you can't give that sh*t away infact its almost not even worth the trouble of bringing it here. By my figures that value is less then a half mil. love how the agents make their busts seem so much bigger then they really are.

sh*t they just busted someone this way with about 4000lb. 8000 plants. This is comming from Canada. 
I'm tellin you its our border to the north that we need to watch. where do you think the 9/11 terrioists came thru from?
the crossers from the north just want to destroy our way of life. and the ones from the south. they just want a chance at our life. 
But its those dirty mexicans we need to worry about I tell ya. 









but wait! lets recap. the guy was shot at. Even tho he didn't have a gun? Is that correct? LOL sounds like a couple border patrolers are bullshitting.

They shot at an unarmed man as he was running away. Yeah. Stellar examples of men of justice. Get the f*ck out of here with this sh*t. 
the story loses its truth when he states. "Ramos said Aldrete-Davila pointed what he believed to be a gun at him. " That would mean the guy was facing him. But then the next sentence says. "Ramos fired one shot. He did not know the single shot hit Aldrete-Davila in the buttocks because the smuggler *kept* running" Could you be so kind as to tell me how you shoot a man that has just turned towards you in the ass?
Are they giving border patrolers magic bullets these days that circle their targets? security or not when a man is running away and you shoot a gun at that man. You are trying to murder that man. 
Put aside the fact that he had a small amount of shitty weed in his truck. Since the officers would have not known that at that point in this story. All they knew is that they were chasing down a guy trying to cross the border. 
But hey If they find a weapon or have some proof that the guy was firing at them. then right on all the right to shoot back at the guy. but if you actually read the details of that article without getting all pissed about what BS it implies you will see that it is full of holes.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> Whats that have to do with some kids that just want to go to college and avoid that life? Are you now saying that all illegals and or immigrants are drug runners?
> What about the cracker ass peckerwoods up in Lodi that down thru sandiego that are setting up 100's of meth labs?
> Or the Homie G's down in the hood settin up crack houses? Is that all good because they are "legal" citizens?
> 
> ...


 This would be the propaganda technique of meandering-confusion-labeling. In other words, rant on in a series of statements that lend no assisstance toward solving the injustice - which confuses the reader - and then frame the opponent as a racist in order to elicit sympathy for a position that not only lacks any logical basis, but is also damaging to the country's long-term stability. Since chronic, unlimited breaking of the law is indefensible, one must elicit sympathy for the children of lawbreakers as all poor citizens who are enttled to a govt. sponsered education. Then twist opponents as anti-Hispanic.

No one said all illegals are drug runners, but merely that in many cases, illegals are gaining access to benefits and judicial rights that indigenous Americans can't even get. And don't assume I would have illegals fit any stereotype without any evidence to back it up. And you can start promoting education for the people who are here legally instead of setting a precedent that rewards lawlessness, which only encourages more illegals. And who cares if Mexican weed is sh*t. That's not the point. Like Dannyboy, you missed the entire point of the article.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

Fargo said:


> Whats that have to do with some kids that just want to go to college and avoid that life? Are you now saying that all illegals and or immigrants are drug runners?
> What about the cracker ass peckerwoods up in Lodi that down thru sandiego that are setting up 100's of meth labs?
> Or the Homie G's down in the hood settin up crack houses? Is that all good because they are "legal" citizens?
> 
> ...


 This would be the propaganda technique of meandering-confusion-labeling. In other words, rant on in a series of statements that lend no assisstance toward solving the injustice - which confuses the reader - and then frame the opponent as a racist in order to elicit sympathy for a position that not only lacks any logical basis, but is also damaging to the country's long-term stability. Since chronic, unlimited breaking of the law is indefensible, one must elicit sympathy for the children of lawbreakers as all poor citizens who are enttled to a govt. sponsered education. Then twist opponents as anti-Hispanic.

No one said all illegals are drug runners, but merely that in many cases, illegals are gaining access to benefits and judicial rights that indigenous Americans can't even get. And don't assume I would have illegals fit any stereotype without any evidence to back it up. And you can start promoting education for the people who are here legally instead of setting a precedent that rewards lawlessness, which only encourages more illegals. And who cares if Mexican weed is sh*t. That's not the point. Like Dannyboy, you missed the entire point of the article.
[/quote]

No I got the point. the patrol man shot an unarmed man while he was running away. You lent no supporting argument that tied it to this specific topic. But it is your implication by posting this article in this thread that implies that you would try and push this stereotype on the original situation that we were speking about int the first place. 
And Its true that the type of weed has nothing to do with the article. It as clearly made out in my post was a side note about the article that I found humor in. Because just like the story the officers told it was simply BS. And again we draw the line of legality. and divert from the fact there are 30+ million people that make their livings here and support our system that take advantage of little of the resources. and yet they are still blaimed for this nations problems when the nations problems are its very infrastructure. Everything is so wound up in red tape and bearucracy and everyones so busy trying to point the finger of blaim at the other the fact of the matter is nothing is getting done about anything to make for a better situation. Rather then addressing the issue that there are millions of seats in our schools that are getting taken up by ignorant punks that have no interest in taking advantage of the free education and contributing to our societey and would rather be drug pushers and pimps and such. We are focusing and making the villians out of peoples that do want to sit in those seats and that do want to get that education. And so what if it costs a couple dollars to have them there. That dollar is going to be paid to that school system anyways because of how the politics of our bugeting systems work. So how about we take all those ignorant worthless americans out of our schools and put them on the front lines and give their seats to people that would like to create a better society for us. After all the punks are going to wind up behind or in front of a gun anyhow.

But it seems that you all don't care if that immigrant kid wants to be a Dr or a lawyer and offer something to this country. Because he/she was born to an uneducated society our imigration system dosen't feel they would be a benifit to us. But the fact is a person that is dedicated to trying to become something more because they come from nothing has alot more potential then some spoiled ignorant brat that is born into a wealthy family or even a middle class one. Because they don't take for granted the benifits of our system. 
And if it is the system that offers these benifits then why would we condem those that wish to take advantage of it rather then those that make a life taking avantage of it? Our own citizens. Why should we promote our own citizens to use the education system that is right there for them for free? It allways has been. What more do you want us to do? Hold their hands and force them to learn? And what rights do these people get that regular citizens don't also have access to? If you are homless here you get all the same benifits these people do. Free health care, subsidized living, and actually more then avaliable to the non citizens. Why should we continue to worry about helping our own citizens that wont help themselves when our society has given them every oppertunity to do so? If they are in that position they have the options of getting financial aid. the majority of the people that you are commenting about are the ones that fee into our gang violance and drug problems. they are the same children that while in class distract the class and take away from others rights to getting an education. Why not place it on their parents sholders as born citizens to try and get that FREE education? Because in most cases their parents are also not paying taxes and have grown up off the goverment tit as well. Its a system thats designed to create dependent peoples. This is simply a case of getting people the abality to get financial aid so that they can get a proper continued education. 
the people you are so concerned about aren't even themselves concerned with getting a basic education. 
Again this is not the kind of aid that will put these peope thru harvard. in reality at most it will get them a community colage or state university degree. This was never said to be a free ride but a supplement to what they also put in. Financial AID. That is such a vauge term. And you are all acting like it is speaking of a full ride. I highly doubt thats the case. Maybe its just enough to pay for books and a dorm.

Again I'm not saying open the doors wide. But I am saying that there are people that are here now. that have grown and lived here their whole lives. they have our culture as a part of their culture. They are just as American as you or I. And they are being denied the right of life that we all are given. Simply because they were not born on our soil.

You seem to have it in your head that I am supportive of tossing aside all of our societeys laws. But what you fail to see that taking one step in the right direction leads us to the next step. If these people are going to be here we need to get them in the system. We need to know who they are. We cannot get rid of them. We know this. So wouldn't it be better to urge them into our system so that they can at least become some level of legimate? then instead of ignorant illegals that run around with out insurance as some people have been bitching about they will be able to get insurance. If they are able to have a legimate job they can then start paying real taxes. If they send their extra money away to their home lands so what. Thats their right to do. Legal americans with family abroad do that all the time. So what diff does the senders status have to do with any of that? 
Theres lots of issues that need to be addressed. Thats a fact. And this is just one of many. This will not cure the worlds ailments but it will at least get us in the right direction of healing. 
If we continue down the road we have been going yeah. the problems will only continue to get worse. Is this an open invitation to let anyone and everyone in the country? f*ck no. keep security at the borders. Keep people from running into the states. But lets get something positive done about our bastard citizens who are here now. Its too easy to just say KICK um all out. but then what kind of a nation does that make us to create millions of transients? Not one that shows much compassion towards a fellow human being thats for sure.

As to the source of the article. I don't keep up on what publications are ran by what side of our political agendas. All I read is the words that are printed and see that they don't line up with what common sense dictates. Honestly tho I do hope that the guy did have a gun and did actually fire at the officers. Because if not this is frightening to think these are the type of vigilante murderous people that are "protecting" our borders. That is really what is disheartening about that story you posted.

And by the way. you didn't bother to address the fact that the officers story is bullshit and that it was a diversionary tactic to take away from the actual issue at hand. 
I really wouldnt say I missed the point. In fact I think I got the point better then you did.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> As to the source of the article. I don't keep up on what publications are ran by what side of our political agendas. All I read is the words that are printed and see that they don't line up with what common sense dictates. Honestly tho I do hope that the guy did have a gun and did actually fire at the officers. *Because if not this is frightening to think these are the type of vigilante murderous people that are "protecting" our borders.* That is really what is disheartening about that story you posted.
> 
> And by the way. you didn't bother to address the fact that *the officers story is bullshit * and that it was a diversionary tactic to take away from the actual issue at hand.
> I really wouldnt say I missed the point. In fact I think I got the point better then you did.


We need hardcore people protecting the borders considering that terrorist attacks on this country have been happening from within the perimeter, if that matters to anyone. ANd how do you know the officer's story is bs? Did you spend one day in the courtroom?


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Wow blacksunshine...defending a drug smuggler...whats next? I think fargo pretty much summed most of what i thought. But since I actually followed the case, i'll throw in some facts(by the way, i think its funny you make fun of it being $1m vs $500,000 based on your expertise like that really matters haha..iss 800 lbs!)

1. Two border patrolmen encounter smuggler
2. One of them gets in a fight with the smuggler
3. 2nd patrolman sees his partner laying on the ground after hearing gunshots
4. Even if he doesn't see a gun, its a known fact smugglers are often armed right mr expert?
5. Based on his history as a border patrol instructor, nomination as border patrolman of the year, and years of service, I would think his integrity/word is a lot better then a drug smuggler. Think about it.
6. Interesting point-smugglers mother got in contact with another borderpatrolmans mother in texas who then helped prosecute the patrolmen. WTF is a texan officer having contact w/ and helping a known drug smuggler? Shady.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

Fargo- The students I was more referring to was the lower classes gradeschoool and up. Once a person gets the colage level yes they are there for an education and are serious about it. Just as these students you speak of. 
Am I defending the smuggler? No. But the penalty for smugling weed is not death. Nor is that officer a jury nor is he a judge. And the bottom line is he shot a man in the back as he was running away before he had any idea about the drugs in the guys car. I read both your posting and the comments of the feinstein. Both have the same gaping holes. "heard gunshots" well based on the vapor like solidity of the last part of the story I can only imagine that would also be part of their "cover up" justification. 
But your right I wasen't in court and neither were you. You and I both are basing our opinions off of a few articles. And frankly the articles (even the 
ones in support of the officers) Do not hold water. I never said that drug smugglers wee not worth worring about. Don't put words in my mouth. My post was long winded enough that you don't need to add your own opinions and interpertations of it to this discussion. If I didn't say that flat out it was not implied.



> But "it's all bullshit," especially when our national security is at stake, and the next guy border patrol agents are not allowed to pursue may be carrying suitcase nukes.


As I had said, its the border to the north that those nukes are going to come over. We just need to be happy that the first set of terrorists that came over and destroyed the twin towers didn't have them when they crossed. cause they would have done much more damage then they did.

But again there have not been a mass exodous of terriosts comming accross the mexican border. They come over the Canadian border because its easier. So lets not try and add that BS to this argument. becaus its really not even about people comming OVER the border its about the ones that are here. And NOT trying to blow us up. and I think I even made mention of that in the last post. Lets try and stay on track huh?

As to gaining citizen ship thru milatary service. Yes sure. That would be a great program. Indeed. Lets get that going as a program. because it would serve well. They will be getting a college education thru that way also. Sadly at this time an illegal cannot go to a recruting and offer his life for this country.

And if it pertained to this situation. They would have chased off the guy and found his nukes. But mexicans are not interested in blowing us up. So your argument about nukes is yet another diversionary tactic to shade over the original issue. You're pretty good at that. But I'm not fooled. Were not on the same page but your catching up.

As to the average "hardworking" american. the average american is not hardworking. sorry. Its just the truth. we are a nation of lazy bastards that sit at computers all day and argue about things they have no power to change. *ahem*. But I was not speaking of the average working class american I was talking about the average lower class trash americans. don't sit there acting like you don't know who I'm talking about. Take a look outside, go to the bad side of town. (try not to get shot) You will see them. the homies and the homless. they are citizens. they are not illegals. they are people that chose to do Nothing. And reap the rewards of the working class's contributions. they are also untallied. And I wouldn't be the least bit suprised to find out they add to the statisctics of people that are milking the system that the illegals get blaimed for. They are the welfair families. And they are Americans.

diddye- They shot a man in the back for no reason other then him trying to cross the border. THE DRUGS WERE NOT FOUND UNTILL AFTER THEY SHOT HIM. Did you actually take the time to read those articles and the officers statements? am I supporting a drug smuggler? Nope. But I also don't feel it to be the right of those men to shoot someone that is running away from them. Reguardless of if he is an illegal or not. 
This reminds me of the South park episode where they take the kids hunting. to justify their killing animals they should have been they yell out "There comming right for us!" Same thing here. "I thought he had a gun" So I waited for him to run away and shot him. Right... Thing is, these people are not animals.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

at least that puts some more fear in the illegals... maybe they will think twice...

j/k


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> diddye- They shot a man in the back for no reason other then him trying to cross the border. THE DRUGS WERE NOT FOUND UNTILL AFTER THEY SHOT HIM. Did you actually take the time to read those articles and the officers statements? am I supporting a drug smuggler? Nope. But I also don't feel it to be the right of those men to shoot someone that is running away from them. Reguardless of if he is an illegal or not.
> This reminds me of the South park episode where they take the kids hunting. to justify their killing animals they should have been they yell out "There comming right for us!" Same thing here. "I thought he had a gun" So I waited for him to run away and shot him. Right... Thing is, these people are not animals.


Um im positive im more informed about this case then you. I've read numerous articles, listened to interviews, and watched reports about this case almost daily. Wrong...he was not "just trying to cross the border". He was trying to smuggle drugs. Its only stated like 10 times. And he attacked his partner! Are you blind? Also, its a known drug smuggling route. you're not an expert..these patrolmen are. Leave it to the experts. Also, if he tried to murder the guy, why did he shoot one time? Why didn't he unload his gun on him? Get your facts straight...espeically against me.

***btw, if you've followed the border case, theres already been a lot of OTC(other then mexican) many of who are arab that got caught crossing the mexican border. I guess you dont know much about that either.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> As to the average "hardworking" american. the average american is not hardworking. sorry. Its just the truth. we are a nation of lazy bastards that sit at computers all day and argue about things they have no power to change. *ahem*. But I was not speaking of the average working class american I was talking about the average lower class trash americans. don't sit there acting like you don't know who I'm talking about. Take a look outside, go to the bad side of town. (try not to get shot) You will see them. the homies and the homless. they are citizens. they are not illegals. they are people that chose to do Nothing. And reap the rewards of the working class's contributions. they are also untallied. And I wouldn't be the least bit suprised to find out they add to the statisctics of people that are milking the system that the illegals get blaimed for. They are the welfair families. And they are Americans.


As for myself, I work 7 days/week and receive no benefits. As for the lower classes, the reason they appear shiftless and lazy is because the legal sysyem is so corrupt that it has its' hands tied as to how to protect the majority of law-abiding citizens; therefore, the minority on the streets pimping drugs and hookers appear as the majority. It all relates to how local govt's prevent crime. If someone in my neighborhood is pimping drugs on the street, he's profiled and taken away end of story. Furthermore, if people had a choice to either go to school or work at the jobs the illegals take at a FAIR wage, then we could remove most of the welfare system that encourages laziness and reserve it for the handicapped, elderly, sick, and infirmed. Read the _Grapes of Wrath _ and observe what poor Americans did for work during the depression rather than have any welfare. If they could do it, so could our people, if the jobs were not insourced and set at a below minimum wage.


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> They shot at an unarmed man as he was running away. Yeah. Stellar examples of men of justice.


 Lets get the facts straight, they shot a criminal who had no right to be on American soil. One less problem to be dealt with.





































The greatest problem with the United States is we dont eliminate enuff people...

If murder's, child molesters, rapists, drug dealers and illegal's understood that if caught, u were treid & if convicted that extermination would follow within minutes of conviction the rest of us would have a much nicer country to live in....

Some might feel that killing someone who is here illegally is overly harsh- however if a person knows the penalty for their action and commits the transgression. The blame for their death is squarely on their own shoulders.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

Oheye8one2 said:


> They shot at an unarmed man as he was running away. Yeah. Stellar examples of men of justice.


Lets get the facts straight, they shot a criminal who had no right to be on American soil. One less problem to be dealt with.





































[/quote]

I thought your post was at its' strongest at this point.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

BlackSunshine420 said:


> They shot at an unarmed man as he was running away. Yeah. Stellar examples of men of justice.


 Lets get the facts straight, they shot a criminal who had no right to be on American soil. One less problem to be dealt with.





































The greatest problem with the United States is we dont eliminate enuff people...

If murder's, child molesters, rapists, drug dealers and illegal's understood that if caught, u were treid & if convicted that extermination would follow within minutes of conviction the rest of us would have a much nicer country to live in....

Some might feel that killing someone who is here illegally is overly harsh- however if a person knows the penalty for their action and commits the transgression. The blame for their death is squarely on their own shoulders.








[/quote]

Wow dude, you live in the wrong country.








So comming over here is a crime that should cost someone their lives? WTF is wrong with you?


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## CichlidAddict (Jul 1, 2005)

Ohhhh... a poor illegal drug-smuggler got shot. *cries*

Call me what you want, but I say "Good." He took a risk and paid dearly for it. Maybe the punishment didn't fit the crime in this case but hey, life isn't always fair.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Um blacksunshine, i've already provided links and supported some of my statements. Please feel free to ask me to link some more....which ones exactly? Because i've already provided info. How much have you provided so far? How many links? Oh thats right....ZERO. Not one link to support any of your claims.

I also find it interesting that you keep supporting these illegals. Yet you never give an answer of how much is too much. So please do yourself a favor and "play along" and provide some credible info.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

diddye said:


> Um blacksunshine, i've already provided links and supported some of my statements. Please feel free to ask me to link some more....which ones exactly? Because i've already provided info. How much have you provided so far? How many links? Oh thats right....ZERO. Not one link to support any of your claims.
> 
> I also find it interesting that you keep supporting these illegals. Yet you never give an answer of how much is too much. So please do yourself a favor and "play along" and provide some credible info.


Wheres that blabbing head smiley......
Ahh there you are!









How about you provide some links that prove that these officers didn't fire on an unarmed man while he was running away from them. Why don't you provide a link to something that shows that he was actually firing on the officers. Anything that shows that these guys acted within their rights as patrol men and not as vigilantes with badges. Thats what I want to see. You provided the links that show that they were trying to kill the unarmed man. And you are supportive of that action thru your debate. and you stand behind these men as if they are good men for what they did. Again. the story says they didn't know for sure the guy was smuggling at that point. So what was their justification? because as far as our legal system says. And ultimatly that holds more merrit then your opinion. They were outside of their rights in that action. And thats why they were arrested and are being tried.


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Why dont you read Fargos original link? Seems you dont do much of that:

"The suspect realized he wasn't going to outrun agent Ramos' vehicle, and so he abandoned his van on a levee and took off on foot. As the suspect headed into the canal, Ramos yelled for him to stop but was ignored. 
As Ramos crossed the canal, he heard gunshots. Ramos knew he was in an area where the Mexican drug cartels have grown increasingly brazen, and where Mexican police and military units often support the drug smugglers. He didn't know if, when he emerged from the canal, he would be facing an armed suspect, possibly reinforced by heavy firepower."

"As he came over the levee, he could see a fellow officer, agent Jose Compean, bloodied and lying in the dirt. Sweating, heart pounding, and adrenaline pumping, Ramos raced by Compean after the smuggler, who was kicking up clouds of dust as he ran. Suddenly, the smuggler stopped and turned toward Ramos and pointed what appeared to be a gun. Agent Ramos raised his pistol and fired one shot, upon which the suspect spun around and continued running for the river. Ramos, with the danger passed, immediately lowered his pistol."

"Ramos said Aldrete-Davila pointed what he believed to be a gun at him. Ramos fired one shot. He did not know the single shot hit Aldrete-Davila in the buttocks because the smuggler kept running and disappeared into the brush along the Rio Grande.

The whole basis is that he was possibly armed...heard gunshots, assaulted his partner and ran into a known armed drug smuggling area and turned around with what appeared to be a gun. Are you blind or just refused to read the article?

BTW, your need for the smuggler to fire first is stupid. A smuggler needs to shoot first before the border agent can???? Damn, if you were an agent you'd probably be dead already. He already beat up his partner! Get that through your thick skull.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

yeah. Read the first article as well as the 4 linked. there is a big diff from fighting with the officer and attempted murder. Assult on an officer is a felony yes. however it does not wrrent the death sentence. As well it is not on the officers judgement to enact that justice. "heard gunshots" is hearsay. Again I wanna see proof that these officers were in the right in their act of firing on what at this point based on what info is provided an unarmed man that was fleeing. 
Warning shots are fired in the air. Not at people. If the suspect was fleeing it would be acceptable for the officer to fire either at the ground or in the air. But not AT the fleeing suspect. 
Seems to me you are letting your personal feelings about the situation overrule reason and what our law defines as acceptable handling of this situation. Again If what these officers did per their report was acceptable they wouldnt be in trial at this point. And that is really what matters in this case. Not what you personally think is ok for them to have done. I mean if we are talking about upholding the law here. Thats it.


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## Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom (Dec 21, 2003)

many good posts on this thread


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

[/quote]

Wow dude, you live in the wrong country.








So comming over here is a crime that should cost someone their lives? WTF is wrong with you?
[/quote]

No, i am suggesting that an already illegal activity that has yet to have a way that has been used to has worked to stop/slow down or in any other way discourage offenders for continuing this activity now be punished with the greatest of severity.

If such a law was in place that any illegal's were caught on U.S soil, this would mean that said criminals accepted the possibility that coming here could cost them there life. Their action would have been a matter of free choice, the consequences are harsh yes, but one they would have accepted.

Some time ago one of my best freinds murdered another man, while visiting him in jail he made the comment that he knew what he was doing when he commited the act and that even then he knew he might "have to do the time to pay for the crime". Again this was one of my best freinds- i loved the guy like he was family but if he had gotten the death penalty i would have had no problem with that- that was a possible penalty for his crime and he accepted that when he blew the other dood away. To be honest with ya, i still feel that 25-life was not enuff and that his ass belonged in the chair..

So trust me, if i can look a beloved freind in the eyes and told him they ought to have freid his ass, i'm gonna have even less pity on so poor sap i have never even met..


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Apparently blacksunshine you're not gonna read that his partner was attacked, bloody, and lying in the field when he found him not knowing if he was alive or not. The air was cloudy when the smuggler was running away and turned before being shot once. If he wanted to commit murder, trust me a trained officer would shoot more then one shot. Let me reinforce two more points to this story.

1. The smuggler is sueing the US for $5million for violating his "civil rights'. Thats BS.
2. The US brought him back here w/ immunitiy to testify against the soldiers plus the US paid for his surgery to remove the bullet from his ass.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

Rigor_mortiZ_Rhom said:


> many good posts on this thread


This is a good discussion. I just got off work, and of all things, the radio was on there and Pat Buchanan was a guest on The Ed Schultz show(a Liberal talk-show). I couldn't believe it. They're in agreement over the undercutting of America's former middle class by outsourcing and illegal immigration.

Where I stand, the problem with any sort of amnesty - whether it be assisted education, loans, work visas, medical care, social welfare, or anything else - is that it must be preceded by a complete enforcement of border security, n end to bogus trade agreements that impoverish Latin AMerica, and a US effort to encourage free markets in Latin AMerica. It can't be any other way, because if people in 3rd world countries hear that all these benefits exist before the border is secure, the increase in illegals will be astronomical, even worse than now.

Once on Air America, a Democrat called up the host - who was your typical Lefty that considered the secure borders crowd racists - and the Dem told the host that until her own job had been insourced, or her own community had been transmogrified, she would continue playing the race card. But the minute a skilled mason or drywaller or plumber or roofer can't get work - and most blue collars are Dems - then they understand what's at stake. Too bad the politicians and pundits' jobs can't be insourced. Then maybe they'd get something done.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

Fargo said:


> No, i am suggesting that an already illegal activity that has yet to have a way that has been used to has worked to stop/slow down or in any other way discourage offenders for continuing this activity now be punished with the greatest of severity.
> 
> If such a law was in place that any illegal's were caught on U.S soil, this would mean that said criminals accepted the possibility that coming here could cost them there life. Their action would have been a matter of free choice, the consequences are harsh yes, but one they would have accepted.
> 
> ...


Sure. such an extreme law would be effective sure. But that also condems millions of people to death just because they are here and were born somewhere else. This dosen't mean they are murdered. They nefver did such a thing. I can say if you were caught stealing and you lost your hand there would be alot less theft too. But we are not like that anymore. 
I'm sorry about your friend. Its tragic because really there wre two lives lost there.


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## Liquid (Aug 24, 2004)

Oheye8one2 said:


> They shot at an unarmed man as he was running away. Yeah. Stellar examples of men of justice.


 Lets get the facts straight, they shot a criminal who had no right to be on American soil. One less problem to be dealt with.





































The greatest problem with the United States is we dont eliminate enuff people...

If murder's, child molesters, rapists, drug dealers and illegal's understood that if caught, u were treid & if convicted that extermination would follow within minutes of conviction the rest of us would have a much nicer country to live in....

Some might feel that killing someone who is here illegally is overly harsh- however if a person knows the penalty for their action and commits the transgression. The blame for their death is squarely on their own shoulders.








[/quote]


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

[/quote]
Sure. such an extreme law would be effective sure. But that also condems millions of people to death just because they are here and were born somewhere else. This dosen't mean they are murdered. They nefver did such a thing. I can say if you were caught stealing and you lost your hand there would be alot less theft too. But we are not like that anymore. 
I'm sorry about your friend. Its tragic because really there wre two lives lost there.
[/quote]

Actauly it condems no one to death-yet, any time a law is passed there is time that goes by before th law goes into effect- this would be the time for anyone who is not supposed to be here- even if their 8 month old baby is an american (the baby can come back when its an adult) to get the hell out. Again, if they dont leave and are aprehended, its their own fault.

As a rule, society tries to make rules to keep order and for the overall good of everyone. Its impossible to complety control the masses to keep them from violating those rules and usualy only three things can keep everyone under the rules in place from violating them

#1- a genuine respect for authority, i.e. the guy who likes to play poker for money but lives in a county that prohibits it, one day he is invited to a freinds house for a money game but declines- because he knows its against the law and respects the law even though he may not like that law. To him the law is above his own personel preference.

#2- the guy realizes that even if he doesnt like it, a law has been put in place for his own benifit- he see's that benifit and complies i.e. the guy who hates wearing a selt belt, but puts it on every time he gets in his car, even before he starts the car.

#3- the guy who doesn't give a damn about what his state legislaters think is right or wrong, but obeys the law out of fear of punishment i.e. he just turned 18 and his g/f is 16,, they been screwing for 3 yrs- but suddenly he stops sleeping with her- cuz he doenst want to face 15 yrs in jail.

Preferably every law we have would be accepted and complied with for either of the first two reasons. (sure we got some lame laws) however look at our prision system today and you might notice that even the third deterent isn't working.

That leaves you with only a few choices
A- try to rehabilitate those who dont understand the first two reasons they ought to obey a paticuler law (to date the United States has failed in this endeaver)

B- say scew it, these guys are gonna rape 5 yr old girls no matter what we do- lets just make it legal, then we dont have to punish them.

C- keep things the way they are, just throw em in jail & hope that somehow for no foreseable reason our entire prision system that is now overcrowded & a breeding ground for more violent criminls suddenly turns all these criminals into really nice swell people who just want to help others and the prisions slowly empty as people everywhere decide they never want to commit any crimes at all.

D- Increase the severity of the punishment.

I'll give you an example, back in the 1960's my grandfather was molesting very young children, our family didnt find this out till 1989 when he got busted for raping both my sisters and 7 cousins. Yeah he served jail time for what he did, but guess what, the 79 yr old basterd is still at it, we just found out he got busted for raping a 2 yr old girl.

The guy has at least a 40 yr history of f*cking little kids, he's gonna f*ck little kids as long as he is alive. You dont want little kids being f*cked by old men, you see to it that he isnt alive anymore to f*ck them. Problem solved.

If the law was in place that if he f*cked some little kid he would die- and he did it anyways, then again, the blame is his- not society's

If a law is in place that if I steal- them my hand will be chopped off, and i still commit that crime, then when my hand is chopped off again i am to blame, not society.

If there is a law here in the United States that says that anyone discovered here on U.S soil that has no legal right to be here would be exucuted, then when that happens, again, its not society's fault that person is now dead, its their own.

The problem with the USA today is not with the things we try to restrict people from doing- murder, f*cking little kids, coming here illegally, stealing, but rather with our modes of punishment, which clearly fail.

Get rid of waterd down rulings by p*ssy judges and backboneless juries, make one punishment for one crime- make it much more severe and as i said before, us law abiding American's will have a much nicer place to live in.


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## BlackSunshine (Mar 28, 2006)

Oheye8one2 said:


> Actauly it condems no one to death-yet, any time a law is passed there is time that goes by before th law goes into effect- this would be the time for anyone who is not supposed to be here- even if their 8 month old baby is an american (the baby can come back when its an adult) to get the hell out. Again, if they dont leave and are aprehended, its their own fault.
> 
> As a rule, society tries to make rules to keep order and for the overall good of everyone. Its impossible to complety control the masses to keep them from violating those rules and usualy only three things can keep everyone under the rules in place from violating them
> 
> ...


So then you would rather us focus on the punishments for breaking the law rather then adjusting the laws as they were ment to be as our times change. So that we can build a better infrastructure so that people will be able to live withing their own means and become productive citizens rather then have to resort to breaking the laws to survive. 
Am I reading that correctly?

And again you are comparing these people that simply want to make a better life for themselves to a child molester and his habbitual sickness. In that comparison you are essentially saying that just because someone is here who is not a legalized alien is either the same as or at least a person of criminal intent simply because they are here? That comparison is totally out of whack. 
Simply because both your comparisons are people who were legal Americans. All that does is reinforce the fact that people of a demented nature can be in any culture reguardless of what nation they come from. That can't be compared to some child that wants an education and to go to collage.
These aren't the non engilish speaking feild worker ********. these are their children that have lived here and gone to school here.

How is it that you can't draw that distinction? Not everyone is as f*cked up as the people you know.


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

[/quote]

And again you are comparing these people that simply want to make a better life for themselves to a child molester and his habbitual sickness. In that comparison you are essentially saying that just because someone is here who is not a legalized alien is either the same as or at least a person of criminal intent simply because they are here? That comparison is totally out of whack.

How is it that you can't draw that distinction? Not everyone is as f*cked up as the people you know.
[/quote]

No, my point was that currently we have no means in place that will completley discourage people from coming into this country illegally. Here in the U.S the number of people who willfully disobey the law is increasing at an alarming rate (regardless of what crime it is), action must be put in place soon if this problem has any chance to ever be curbed. I've already listed the basic options we could look into.

My problem (within this discusion) is with people who are not legal residents of this country. I dont care how they got here- the fact that they are here put them into the same catagory as others who are willing to disobey our laws- theives, child molesters ect...

I work my ass off, 95 hour work weeks are not uncommon for me- that is a HUGE part of my life and often the work i do is highly grueling, physical work. As a law abiding part of society- every crime against this country is a crime against me.

i head it said that 35% of my taxes go towards law enforment, prosecution and the incarcacation of criminals. Thats like me working 10 hours a week just to pay for criminals.

Lets look at that logically- 2 years ago i was robbed by a known local theif who had been out of jail less than a week, hrs later he was caught and commiting his third crime that day. he again got two years in jail.

I WAS PENALIZED FOR HIM ROBBING ME... for the next two years for him robbing me i worked 10 hrs a week to feed him, provide shelter and medical care for him. Would you accept that? You do now. Chopping his hand off- with no jail sentence seems to me to be a better solution. Given the choice, yeah i'd rather him have his life taken away, fact is i'd be more than happy to have pulled the switch myself.

Considering how much i work- and how hard i do work- the idea of anyone profitting off of my efforts- who isnt even supposed to be here ( get that- NO RIGHT TO BE HERE) is a travesty of justice.

Due to my heritage i can qualify for certain "charity" from the goverment.. instead i have decided that i will earn everything i have in my life.

Due to a car accident several years ago i qualify for partial S.S benifits, i've chosen to not accept those benifits and make my living regardless of the physical limitations i now face.

The American Dream is not a person getting ahead in life by accepting and taking advantage of every handout offered by a bueacratic backboneless goverment and people like you who would create a worldwide welfare system. The American dream is a person acheiving their dreams and goals by putting forth the effort to overcome any obstacle put in their path- ON THEIR OWN, not by bettering themselves off of my hard earned money.

I AM THE AMERICAN DREAM... these people who you think i should be supporting aren't even americans.. If i want to support some non american kid and help him or her better themselves i'll give to Save The Children.

If you want to help these people out- you go out, give them all the money you earn. Leave my hard earned money out of any plans you have to help the rest of the world.

[/quote]

And again you are comparing these people that simply want to make a better life for themselves to a child molester and his habbitual sickness. In that comparison you are essentially saying that just because someone is here who is not a legalized alien is either the same as or at least a person of criminal intent simply because they are here? That comparison is totally out of whack.

How is it that you can't draw that distinction? Not everyone is as f*cked up as the people you know.
[/quote]

THERE is no distinction... a person who is in the united states who is not a legalized alien IS A CRIMINAL.... the same as a thief, the same as a muderer, same as the child molester or the person who refuses to pay taxes... they are ALL CRIMINALS...

I can compare illegals to other criminals because they are doing something illegal... THATS the WHOLE PROBLEM. Breaking the law is breaking the law. There is no distinction. NONE. ZILCH. NADDA.

There are theives out there who have no other way to better their lives, but their good at stealin and have been able to rise up in life from a social standpoint- able to go from homelessness to living "the good life". They may be really nice people and even donate money to charities ect... they only stole so they could better themselves. I DONT CARE. If they get caught they ought to be punished.

Same thing for the alien living here illegally- because he wants to better himself- if he is caught, he ought to be punished.

These people are trying to better themselves at my expense. The severity of their punishment for that- no matter how great, as long as it discourages others from trying to do the same- and prohibits them from trying it again isn't going to cost me one second of sleep.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

Oheye8one2 said:


> i head it said that 35% of my taxes go towards law enforment, prosecution and the incarcacation of criminals. Thats like me working 10 hours a week just to pay for criminals.


While I don't quite agree with your iron-fisted approach to law, that's an alarming statistic if it's true.


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## Oheye8one2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Fargo said:


> i head it said that 35% of my taxes go towards law enforment, prosecution and the incarcacation of criminals. Thats like me working 10 hours a week just to pay for criminals.


While I don't quite agree with your iron-fisted approach to law, that's an alarming statistic if it's true.
[/quote]

My mother used to work for the State Prison system and the 35% of our taxes comment came from a meeting she was part of with some wardens of state prisons and other state officials- she came away so shocked she shared that with me. Like i mentioned in my comments, i "heard" this, i'm not personally vouching for its accurecy, but i trusted the source....

Yeah i am known as a very strict discplinarian, i've helped raise both my sisters and 3 of my neices. My neices use words like "yes please", "No sir", "thankyou", they dont fight with each other, and do what they are told the first time i tell them. Of the two that practically live with me, the oldest is in the second grade and is capable of cleaning the entire house (except some laundry) and is among those at the head of her class.

Funny thing is, while they dont fight, they do argue sometimes over toys, ect. when that happens both will aways come to me to settle the dispute. My sister recently asked the older one while they always go to me and not her and Katie answered, "because we know Uncle Matty is always fair".


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## diddye (Feb 22, 2004)

Its interesting...if you look at the results of this threads polls, its about the same percentage that americans would answer to. The vast majority of americans are against illegal immigration.


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## Fargo (Jun 8, 2004)

diddye said:


> Its interesting...if you look at the results of this threads polls, its about the same percentage that americans would answer to. The vast majority of americans are against illegal immigration.


So much for a representative republic. Here's Voiniovich's record for 2005/2006, strongly at odds with majority opinion in Ohio:

_Sen. Voinovich has taken no action to reduce
the level of chain migration and the lottery.
Voted on Senate floor in favor of amendment to kill border fence in 2006 
Voted in favor of bill to increase immigration and grant amnesty to illegal aliens in 2006 
Voted in favor of motion to invoke cloture on S. 2611 to increase overall immigration numbers and reward illegal aliens with amnesty in 2006 
voted against motion to invoke cloture on bill to increase overall immigration numbers and reward illegal aliens with amnesty in 2006 
Importing Specific Foreign Workers 
Voted in favor of amendment to cap employment-based visas in 2006 
Voted against amendment to create additional guestworker visa categories in 2006 
Voted to kill amendment to prevent guestworkers from getting greencards in 2006 
Voted on Senate floor against amendment to postpone guestworker-amnesty program until borders secured in 2006 
Voted on Senate floor to kill amendment to strike guestworker provisions from immigration bill 2006 
Voted on Senate floor against killing amendment to cap guestworker visas in 2006 
Voted on Senate floor in favor amendment to increase worker protections in 2006 
Voted on Senate floor for amendment to weaken worker protections in 2006 
Voted against amendment to strip foreign-worker increase in 2005 
Voted in favor of amendment to increase foreign-worker importation in 2005 
Cosponsoring legislation to increase H-2B workers who are present in the U.S. at any one time in 2005-2006 
Cosponsored legislation to import more foreign workers 
through an agricultural guestworker program in 2001 
Voted for a foreign worker bill with no anti-fraud measures in 2000. 
Citizenship for Illegal Alien Babies 
Sen. Voinovich has taken no action to reduce
the rewarding of illegal immigration by giving citizenship
to anchor babies.
Inviting/Repelling Illegal Aliens 
Voted in favor of amendment to fund border fence in 2006 
Voted against amendment to fund additional immigration investigators in 2006 
Voted against amendment to extend border fence in 2006 
Voted on Senate floor in favor of amendment to kill border fence in 2006 
Voted against amendment to make two million illegal aliens eligible for amnesty in 2006 
Voted against authorizing the National Guard to assist in border patrol efforts in 2006 
Voted on Senate floor in favor amendment to create border fence in 2006 
66.
Voted on Senate floor to kill amendment to prevent Social Security for illegal aliens in 2006 
Voted against amendment to increase detention beds for illegal aliens in 2005 
Voted against amendment to provide funding for additional Border Patrol agents in 2005 
Voted in favor of amnesty for agricultural workers in 2005 
Voted against amendment to provide funding for additional Border Patrol and ICE agents in 2005 
Cosponsoring bill to create an amnesty for illegal _ agricultural workers in 2005-2006

Dewine's record is basically the same.


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