# A Bit Of A Problem. Help Needed!



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

OK, so I switched my tank around a few days ago from a Juwel 260 to a Juwel 400. At first no problems at all and everyone seemed very happy in their new home. Did a water test a day after the switch and everything was fine. Got up this morning and the fish were looking a little lethargic on the bottom of the tank. Then at times they were actually going for each other. A little strange as they normally live well with each other. Did water test and Ammonia read back at 0.25ppm and Nitrites at 1ppm. I did a 50% water change and also used the API Stress Zyme this time and at the recommended double dose as the filter is still pretty new. Left for around an hour and tested the water again. This time Ammonia and Nitrites both at 0ppm.
On closer inspection, 4 of the 5 fish have what I can only describe as rough looking tail fins at the end. Also, two of them have a white spec on their dorsal fins. I was convinced that this could be some kind of bacterial infection, so I've started to dose with Melafix. Here's where the dilemma begins. The Melafix needs to be dosed daily for seven days to take effect, but as the filter is still only on it's second week of cycling I may have to do a water change at some point which would interupt the Melafix treatment.

Could someone please advise what would be the best way to go would be here, please. It's very stressful as I've had these fish for nearly a year now and I've not experienced anything like this yet and I REALLY DON'T want to lose them.

They seem to have calmed down with each other now over the last hour or so since adding the Melafix and are swimming a little bit better, but they're still not themselves.

Thank you in advance.

EDIT: Just to add a little more here. Up until 2 days ago I was running the new FX6 on the tank, which as already mentioned was in it's second week of cycling. I then added the 406 as extra filtration which I'd been using on my previous tank. Now the thing is here that I gave it a thorough cleaning before installing. Parts that could be cleaned by hand were scrubbed with clean water as hot as my hands could stand. The canister and baskets were left to soak for at least an hour in boiling water from the kettle, then rinsed through again. The pipes were pulled through to remove anything that may have been lying in them. I've used all brand new media in the filter such as sponges, biomax and pot scrubbers, *BUT* the biofoam that I used in the bottom basket is the same one that I had previously used in the filter. I made sure though that I'd boiled it for an hour in a pan on the cooker. I can't help but think that I may have introduced something unwanted into the tank here????


----------



## Fisch (Mar 17, 2015)

after reading through this... I am getting the feeling that you basically are starting a new water cycle...

did you reuse any of the filter media with out cleaning it? it sounds like you didn't.

Just from reading it ... this sounds like you are starting a whole new water cycle... and you are going to have a few problems.

Something i have learned over the years is never change filters with out using old medium to start new bacteria faster.

I use the 350 bio wheels... got 2 of them... which means i have 4 bio wheels... i had a crab tear up my bio wheel... actually 2 of them off the same filter (he wanted a place to malt)

so i replaced only 1 at a time... if not... my levels would go crazy because only 1 filter isnt strong enough to clean a 90.

The filter medium is actual good when it has bacteria on it. So super cleaning everything is actually a great thing to do... but not if you have fish.

Since you super cleaned them your new super clean filters have super cleaned the water... which now shows no parts per million of anything. So you are starting your water cycle all over again.

I would suggest asking some one you know if they have any filter medium, with bacteria on it, if you can throw some in your canister to speed up the process before the amonia and nitrite and nitrate spike occurs...

If you where in the Maryland area... i could help ya with that.

Never super clean a filter when changing tanks with fish... just do a normal filter clean.

plus going to the larger tank caused you to have a 50 percent water change (because you are adding a crap ton more water in the new tank) but then you did a 50 percent water change on top of that... so technically that's around 75 percent. very dangerous. But i could be miss reading what you wrote

just a thought... most lakes rivers and streams are to dirty to drink out of. So never make a fish tank to clean to drink out of. Its not there normal environment.... that doesnt mean go pee in a tank and throw your trash in it hhahahahaha but it does mean that a clean tank is never truly clean.

on a side note... your tank sounds amazing... got any pics?


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Thanks for the reply, it's very much appreciated! What you'resaying does make a lot of sense.

When I initially knocked the 406 off, I used the biomax from that to completely fill the middle basket of the FX6. That way I knew I would have beneficial bacteria in the filter to help kick start it.

The only reason that I gave everything in the 406 such a good clean is that it had been out of use and standing around for days. I didn't clean it when I first switched it off. My theory to clean it was to avoid adding any toxins into the new tank.

I did realise that I would pretty much be starting a new cycle again, but the thing that was most alarming was how rough the fins on the fish had become. This also bought me back to my theory of not cleaning the 406 out properly and I'd introduced a bacterial infection into the enviroment. On the plus side of things though, since adding the Stress Zyme they seem a little more contended than they did this morning. Would you recommend that I continue with the Melafix to help with the fin problem?

I know of no one at all with fish that I could ask for media. My mates have no time for the hobby. They just like to come around here and 'WOW' at 'THE PIRANHAS', lol. Thank you very much for 'your' offer to help with media though. If I were a few thousand miles closer, I would have taken you up on that one.

At the minute, I'd be a little embarrassed to post any photographs of the tank as it still looks very bare. It only has the decoration that was taken out of the 206, so you can well imagine the room that needs to be filled. As soon as it's decorated with more, I'll be more than happy to post a few photographs. I hope one day that I'll even be able post a planted tank, once I master the art of growing live plants, because me growing live plants... well... erm... OMG! I've tried and I've tried.........


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Sounds like a mini-cycle to me as well... keep up on your testing and water changes and it will go away


----------



## Fisch (Mar 17, 2015)

hahahahah as for decorating a tank... hahahahaha yeah... this was my tank last fall










I honestly think it still looks like sh*t because non of the irish moss is sticking to anything like it should... so i still have green twine wrapped around everything... and i still have a 3rd log that wont sink so it has a giant rock on it (not to mention a piece of slate screwed to the bottom of it)

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/fischers-fishes-piranha-cam

you can see the log on the left... has green twine going from its 11 oclock to its 5 oclock then wrapping around that rock behind the skill with the floating irish moss hahahahah

stupid decorations never work out with piranhas cause they want to bump into everything

as for the possible mini cycle (aegir is right) i think it is possible that the piranha might not be having a bacteria infection... but could be nipping at each others tails... not biting just nipping...

You could throw in some rock salt... very small amount... but it helps with calming fish down during stressful situations. a couple of teaspoons... is all you need.

this is an article about it... i know its not the best... but its just a quick google search on why you use salt for freshwater.

http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Articles/TonyGriffitts/Adding_Salt_to_a_Freshwater_Aquarium.htm

when i first add fish to a tank... a throw in a couple of teaspoons... then i never really have to do it again for the rest of the time i own the tank... dont want it to be brackish... just want the fish to be calm.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

For some reason I can't play your video. You're right though, it's an absolute pain in the ass growing plants. I'm not accepting defeat just yet though. I'm currently trying a few Vallis for now. Some of them are doing OK so far, but others are on the turn.

I'll keep the salt in mind for now. I don't want to be adding too much to the tank at once. I've already added enough for one day. I'll see how they are in the morning and do a test again.

I've taken a few photos of the fish to give you an idea of what thise fins look like. As for your floating bogwood situation, I'm in the same boat myself. Bought a huge piece a couple of weeks ago and still trying to saturate it. If you look closely in a couple of photos, you can see where I've had to tie another piece to it to hold it down.

These photos ain't the best. They were completely still until it was photo op time, lol. The last two are the best and clearest ones I could get. Check out some of the dorsal fins too.


----------



## Fisch (Mar 17, 2015)

i think you will be fine... if the fins progress more than that tomorrow... then i would start looking at getting a second tank and doing like a "brine bath" (as i call it). its just a medical salt bath that kills most bacteria... that link i sent ya tells ya how to do it.

I have had to do one before on a pleco... didnt have a tank... so i did it in my kitchen sink hahahahaha


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

I really hope it doesn't progress any further. Having to give them salt baths is not really something I want to be doing. Apart from being a complete novice with it, I've put them through enough over the last few days.

Just out of curiosity here. Say if I gave them a salt bath for a 30 min period (example). Putting them back into the tank, wouldn't that just re-introduce the problem?

In the meantime... Do you have any idea what the cause could possibly be?


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Let it ride for a few days... unless things get way worse you are fine.

The stress of netting / a bath will just be counterproductive


----------



## Fisch (Mar 17, 2015)

I agree with aegir here...

let it ride for a few days.

but yes you would be reintroducing them to the same bacteria infested water... if... if... that is what this is.

like i said a few posts earlier... just let them do there thing and tomorrow check for progress. I really think its just a mini cycle and their water is just going to irritate them for a few days


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Got up this morning and they're pretty much the same. On the plus side of things, they're looking no worse. I'm very inclined to agree with you there in saying that it may just be the water itrritating them. I hope thats all it is.

Another point to make is that they're looking much happier than when I checked them yesterday morning. Swimming around, coming to the front of the tank to me, etc....

Did a water test and while the Ammonia showed back at 0ppm, there was a very slight hint of Nitrite, so I did a 10% water change.


----------



## Titus (Dec 1, 2014)

Congrats for the new tank, glad to read that things are getting better.

I'm going to do a tank change soon, how hard was it to net them? Last time I did a tank change it took me an hour to catch them all, first one was easy...the other two learned pretty quick.

Do you think the mini-cycle was caused by over cleaning the filters? Didn't really catch if you changed them all or used some of the old ones.

@Fisch : Laughed so hard at your decorating picture, girlfriend thought I was dying...thanks for that !

An opinion would be: spend some time with them, it must have been stressful for them to "move". I'm saying this because my presence near the tank always stops fighting, glass banging and other stress related behaviors.

How old are they? Size?


----------



## Fisch (Mar 17, 2015)

@titus yeah... that was actually my tank on the bottom... was really frustrated at that damn log hahahaha im glad i could bring humor to some one else through my misery hahahahaha

about the fish... good to hear they are the same... means it is probably a water issue. So just keep calm and piranha on!

You will probably need to do constant small water changes as if this was a water cycle... keep it up bro... they will be fine.

keep us posted on the progress brosif


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Thanks for all your help and advice on this one everyone. It really is 'honestly' appreciated. Thank you!

@Titus. It wasn't really too hard to catch them really, but they are fast when they want to be. My advice would be to get hold of a coulinder and something that will completely cover the top of it when transporting them. Then whatever you're putting them into, try and have it as close as possible. They go absolutely crazy and are very strong. I used a net to catch the first two, but you can well imagine what happened to the net.

I'd have to agree with everyone else is saying by the filter is going through a cycle. The Fluval 406 that I'd been using on my old tank had been going for just short of a year now. When I swapped the 406 for the FX6, I used the biomax from the 406 to competely fill the middle tray of the FX6. I wanted spmething in there to give me a bit of a head start with it being a new filter.
I'd had the 406 just standing around doing nothing and I had the thought of 'I could never have too much filtration', so I gave that one a thorough cleaning, bought new media for it and away we go. So, I'm pretty much starting from scratch with the 406.

They're just coming up to a year old now. The three smallest of the five are around 4" now and the two bigger ones are around 5" each.

@Fisch. As you say mate, it's probably just the case of small and frequent water changes. I really do hope it is anyway. I'll certainly post updates and progress. The thread may be of use to someone in the same position at some point.

At the minute they're all side by side in a line starring at me, looking badass. Other than that, they've been pretty OK today.

Thanks again everyone for your input.


----------



## Fisch (Mar 17, 2015)

yeah!!! sitting in line hovering is exactly what you want.

as for catching piranha...

first i drain as much water as possible... I hate trying to catch them in a full tank... they are assholes

then this is what I use...

http://www.amazon.com/Prodyne-PF-54-Forever-Polycarbonate-54-Ounce/dp/B000BHP3M2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1426939191&sr=8-3&keywords=clear+pitcher

It is almost perfectly clear when its in the water... I could sneak up to the piranha with it.

It is like a "predator" net... you can barely see the outline... and some times I like to do the DUN NUN DUN NUN DUN NUN music while I am slowly getting closer to the fish with it... hahahahaha

but I am an adult child... so what can I say


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Exactly what I did. After the first few tries catching them in a full tank, I knew I was just pissing into the wind. I drained the water then just so their dorsal fins were breaking the surface. Made it much easier, but still a bit of a task all the same.

Got up this morning with everything looking good. Those white patches on the dorsal fins look to be clearing up, but not completely gone as yet. Did a water test for Ammonia and Nitrite and both at 0ppm. Not long ago gave them a small feed with everything eaten within 20 seconds. I'll give it a few hours now and test for Ammonia and Nitrite again.


----------



## Fisch (Mar 17, 2015)

NOICE!!!

sh*t sounds like you will be fine.

just so you know how slow i take tank changes... I just bought a canister filter for my tank... so i can remove the over head filters. I am going to hook up the canister filter and remove the power head i have in the tank.

I will still run the 2 over head filters for 1 week... in a week i am going to turn off 1 of the power head filters and remove it. After a few more weeks if water stability is still good. I will remove the second over head filter... and add back the power head on the opposite end of the tank as the input.

This should allow for a simple change in the water chemistry but nothing major. It should be good to go in a few weeks. Its slower but it takes less effort and stays more stable than jumping right in and being over vigilant. Honestly good intentions can be more harmful to fish than we think.

I have seen fish live in a pond with nothing more than a fountain pump. the water was clear-ish... and the fish loved it. Its surprising how clean we make these tanks for our fish.

anyways... good to hear good news from the fish... post more pics when you get a chance.

If i get a chance this weekend (doing some furniture building and working today) ill post a vid with the go pro again. its fun to watch them eat close up.


----------



## Titus (Dec 1, 2014)

Great success !

@Fisch do that video ! Did you see mine? I really wanna see how the gopro deals with tanks. I would keep the powerhead for flow and exercise, I have a 1000 l/hr powerhead and it's the main "toy" for them, I actually wanna buy a wavemaker with dual outlets for more flow.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Got up this morning and everyone is looking much better. Those fins are still looking a little rough, but also looking to be on the mend at the same time. 
Did a water test and while Ammonia was reading at 0ppm, there were signs of Nitrite at 0.50ppm. Did a 25% water change and added a bit of tap safe to be sure and they're looking just fine now.


----------



## Fisch (Mar 17, 2015)

and... walla... You are good to go.

just keep checking the water for another week or two... and you should be fine.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Did a bit of a daft thing a couple of days ago. I fed them heart and while I was confident they'd eaten all of it, I'd overlooked a piece that had managed to wedge itslef right in the corner of a piece of bogwood. The invevitable happened and it put the Ammonia and Nitrite readings up to 1ppm each. Did a 25% water change straight away and tested. The readings came down a touch, but not by much. Then did a couple of 10% changes a few hours apart and got the Ammonia down to 0.25ppm and the Nitrites down to around 0.50-1ppm. I had to leave it at this point due to doing too many water changes. The fish themselves looked absolutely fine, but on saying that, they were a bit agitated and were going for each other.
Got up this morning andtested again. 0.25ppm of Ammonia and roughly 0.50ppm of Nitrite. Changed about 15% of the water and left for about an hour and changed another 10%. Tested an hour later and I've got the Ammonia at 0 and the Nitrites at 0.25ppm. It's been a few hours since, so I'll do another 10% and leave it there for today.

At this point the fish are looking stable and more at ease with each other.


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

Good to hear!

In the future, one large water change is less stressful (if the temp, ph etc are matched) and more effective... better to do one big one per day than 10 small ones.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Thats good to know and is something that I would much prefer to do, thank you. I'd always been led to believe small but frequent water changes were best.

I don't think I'll need to change much now tomorrow (unless something drastic happens). At the last change, I'd got yhe Nitrites under 0.25ppm. Just the very slightest tint of purple in the test.


----------



## Fisch (Mar 17, 2015)

I have always been told both... 1 large water change or many frequent water changes...

Honestly... i think they are both right in regards to the fact that you cant ask the fish which they prefer... seeing as 1 large water change could eleminate the problem quicker but could put the fish in shock... where as a few water changes will ease them into clean water...

either way... what ever keeps them fish alive


----------



## Ægir (Jan 21, 2006)

If temp and ph are similar you are just doing them a favor by reducing ammonia, nitrites, nitrates quicker.

You are just changing a percentage of the clean water you just added by doing small ones over and over


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

I think it's just about getting there nowon the cycle front. The FX6 now is just coming up to it's 4th week. I did a water test at the weekend and while Ammonia was showing at 0ppm, there were signs of Nitrite. The Nitrates were also pretty low, which led me to believe that the filter just wasn't quite doing the job yet. Did a 25% water chaange and left it for a couple of days. I've also fed them twice since. 
Got up this morning and checked the water and everything is looking good. 0ppm on both Ammonia & Nitrite and now getting around 50-60ppm on the Nitrate side of things. Very pleased and the fish are looking much better AND calmer.


----------



## Fisch (Mar 17, 2015)

If it makes you feel any better... you are not the only one with these issues.

I bought a canister filter to replace my two over the top filters... and after a couple of days of running both at the same time... the bio-wheels had completely stopped working on the one over the top filter. So i turned it off.. and disconnected it.

and thanks to my dog i dropped it on the floor... another story for another time. was partially my fault... i did say come here.

then the next day... the motor went out on the other over the top filter... but i wasn't home due to dr. appointments and over time at work. So the wife told me she forgot that it had gone out and forgot to tell me hahahaha

So i swapped the housing with the other filter... but the bio-wheels where almost completely dry and didn't want to spin now...

Now I have a basically just swapped in a new canister filter after only a few days of transition...

Basically I am in the same boat as you... hahahahahah even when taking all precautions everything failed hahahahahah

this is life.

The one fucked up part was i was cursing at my tank and moving stuff around so much so that the piranha where on there side under rocks hahahahah wish i would have thought about taking a picture... it was crazy.

but everything is looking ok right now. going this Thursday to buy more test kit stuff (ran out over the weekend) got back up test strips for now. should be fine ... i would throw in salt but i have a crab ... and i dont want to kill him.

they where eating fine these last few days... but there was a couple of days there i was worried.

good thing is they are getting to that size where they are more resilient.


----------



## Robert_The_Doll (Sep 26, 2014)

Yup, I'd put you in the same boat as me there. As you told me though, 'I'm sure you will be fine'. I reckon you already know that though.









That crab sounds interesting. Do you have a photo, so I can take a look?


----------



## Fisch (Mar 17, 2015)

sorry i havent been as quick to respond...

doctors got me all crazy...

as for a pic of the crab... i might have one some where... the little f*cker keeps climbing into the biofilter... and i found out after it was all said and done.... that he destroyed it

he has taken chunks out of it ... the little punk hahahahaha

but as of right now... everything is balancing out... wasnt that bad at all... i need to do another water change tomorrow... and then i should be good... the fish are a bit skidish because the wife also steam cleaned the carpet today.

I tell you what, almost any thing will freak out red bellies hahaha










his back is red also... but its hard to tell... hes only 2 inches max

the tank looks much better with the canister setup instead of the over head stuff...










but the damn water flow isnt the same... so i need another power head so that i dont have to buy an air bubbler... i hate those things in tanks hahahahah

hows yours doing right now

oh... and the deer skull will be replaced with a bigger deer skull one day... i got one with antlers...

nice sized too... one antler is broke... the other is perfect.

Got to finish cleaning the damn thing then dipping it in polyurethane

but this is what she looks like


----------

