# DIY Turf algae scrubber... Fresh or Salt!



## Ægir

Some quick reading to tell you what this does (from SWfish help forum)



> Will wipe out most algae growth in the display, since nitrate and phosphate will be LOW.
> 
> o Allows you to feed very high amounts without causing nuisance algae growth in the tank.
> 
> o Will finally allow coralline to grow, since the phosphate will be too low stop it.
> 
> o Has the highest nitrate and phosphate removing power of any macro algae (because of
> the high air and light levels it gets).
> 
> o Is very quick to respond to excess nitrate and phosphate spikes (the turf "screen" always
> stays the same size after it is trimmed); much quicker than refugiums/macros which have
> smaller surface areas after they are trimmed.
> 
> o Is the very smallest size for the amount of nitrate and phosphate removing it does.
> 
> o High removal of nitrate and phosphate, low removal of foods (the OPPOSITE of a skimmer).
> o Removes both nitrate and phosphate, unlike rock/sand (which removes only nitrate), or
> phosban (which removes only phosphate).
> 
> o Bucket version is extremely easy to build, using just a bucket and pvc pipe.
> o Provides cooling of water, using increased evaporation, especially with a fan.
> 
> o Does not form bacteria or slime like vodka dosing does.
> 
> o Increases pH.
> 
> o Increases oxygen.
> 
> o Does not release strands into the display like chaeto algae does.
> 
> o Will not spread into the display like caulerpa can.
> 
> o Gets strong light penetration into the turf, since there is no water standing over it.
> 
> o Easy to clean; just lift the screen up and "scrape" (i.e., "harvest") it.
> o Removes ammonia too, which takes some load off your rock and sand.
> 
> o You can even make the bucket portable! Just unplug the lights and fan, lift up the pump
> out of the tank water, and go put it in your next tank (or your friend's tank). Don't let
> the screen dry out though.
> 
> o *Works in saltwater or freshwater.*


Lets get started







You will need to get: (sizes can vary, i just used what i had around) 
A 5 gal bucket (or garbage can, rubber maid bin etc...) 1" endcap, 1"MPT adapter (bottom) with FPT hose adapter (to the right of the bulkhead), and enough pipe to go across the bucket (top)... 








a hose adapter for your pump, and a bulkhead (left center) for your bucket or bin... Also a divider from petsmart or some sort of screen material. (maybe that needlework screen from walmart?) a clip on light, and a high power CFL light bulb, a Pump to cover your screen with enough water, we will talk more about pumps and screen size later! Also plan for the necessary plumbing fittings to get your bucket drain into your sump or display, in my case i tried a reducer and hose adapter, but it couldnt keep up with the flow of my pipe, i ended up hard lining it in with 1" to help that problem

Now with a hole saw and drill, drill the appropriate size hole for your bulkhead. MAKE SURE YOU PLACE IT UP HIGH ENOUGH SO YOU CAN GET THE NUT ON THE INSIDE, AND DONT HIT THE BOTTOM OF THE BUCKET









I REPEAT DONT HIT THE BOTTOM OF THE BUCKET









Now push your end cap on firmly (glue if you feel necessary) and plan where to cut for your threaded adapter (right)...









I wanted to be able to place a clear lid on if necessary (evaporation problem?), so i drilled another hole with a smaller hole saw near the top of the bucket, but low enough to let the lid fit on snugly... 









Now i just threaded the hose adapter onto the pvc adapter to kinda hold the pipe in place... dont screw it on yet... 
Take a sharpie and a square (or straight edge of some sort) and draw a line... 









(FROM HERE ON i am not responsible if you hurt yourself, especially if you try something stupid)

USING A DREMEL AND CUTTING WHEEL cut an 1/8" wide groove where your line was... I wont say how i cut mine because it wasnt a great idea, and OSHA could be reading :rasp: Use a utility knife to clean out the inside and outside edge of the groove when you are finished... You will be tucking the top of the screen into this groove during final assembly.... Cut your screen to width of your bin or bucket (remember 5 gallon buckets taper towards the bottom) and cut the supports on the side to fit under your plumbing... now slide it in and mark where you have to cut out for the endcap, and MPT adapter on the sides, to allow your screen to tuck up into the notch (1/2" or so into the pipe) you cut earlier, using scisors cut the screen out to fit, scuff the screen with sandpaper to allow algae to attach... and slide everything into place!











> Screen Width-----Gallons Per Hour (GPH)
> 
> 2" 70
> 3" 105
> 4" 140
> 5" 175
> 6" 210
> 7" 245
> 8" 280
> 9" 315
> 10" 350
> 11" 385
> 12" 420
> 13" 455
> 14" 490
> 15" 525
> 16" 560
> 17" 595
> 18" 630
> 19" 665
> 20" 700


That is the bare minimum, keep in mind head pressure if you are lifting water up to your bucket
Hook it up in your kitchen sink and test fire to check for leaks... then get it in place!

Clip your light on and make sure its not touching plastic, i will take pics of the package later of the bulb i got









Now comes the waiting game.... If you have a wave maker like the OceanPulse Duo its recommended you use it on the pump to help the algae grow... keep in mind tidal zones are exposed for extended periods of time so as long as your light doesnt cook the algae you will be fine setting it at the 30 second interval... i will tinker with this and let you know what works for me best



> The screen usually starts out with green hair algae in just three days (which still works great!), but after a few months you should start seeing the super-powerful dark brown/red stiff "turf" algae. The only maintenance is to remove ("harvest") some of the algae from ONE HALF of the screen once a week. Thus, since this screen has two sides, you just do one side per week. If you choose a one-sided sump screen then you just do half of that side per week. Remember you will see mostly a green hair algae to start with (for several weeks), but eventually you will have a stiff reddish brown turf (a few months). So when you do your weekly harvesting, remove/washoff the green algae first, and leave behind any reddish turf you find. Do this by "scrubbing" or "massaging" the green algae in your sink with tap water running over it, kind of like you are washing your hair. This will remove the green, but will leave the brown/red. And even when you are removing the green, don't clean it completely... try to leave a little bit so it can start growning again quickly.


Now i have read it is almost impossible to just "start magically growing" turf algae (what we ideally want) but any sort of slime, bubble or hair algae will absorb nutrients, and will eventually grow out into a thick mat that will work just great... so i am ordering a pre grown screen from somebody online, if it works out i will post info on that, its around 10$ for a 4x4" piece that i will ziptie onto the middle of my screen eventually...



> o Put a timer on the lights: 18 hours on, 6 hours off. This will give the algae time to
> "rest". Make sure it's on during the overnight when your tank lights are off.
> 
> o Use metal halide or sodium plant-grow lights; the more light the better, and the lower
> their K rating (more "red") the better. Don't melt the plastic parts though.
> 
> o Put a wavemaker (on-off-on) timer on the pump to simulate waves; gives the algae more
> air between the flows.
> 
> o Hang the bucket up high, so it can drain right into your display; all the live pods that
> grow in the screen will flow down right to your corals. Remember this height will reduce
> your pump flow, so choose your pump accordingly.


Heres mine running, as you can see i need to add a ball valve to tune down my flow slightly cause its splashing in the bottom of the bucket...


More writing and pics coming in a second!


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## Ægir

It has been running sollid for 24 hours now... today i am taking the razor blaze to the display and manually removing everything i can from the sand, and will use that to seed the screen... i will post an update later once i get the wavemaker hooked up!


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## Ægir

Day 2... I seeded the screen with algae from my tank and it appears to have worked.. i see a few strands attached to the screen so hopefully me grinding the scrapings in worked? nothing really photo worthy yet but by the end of the week i expect some results! i can already tell that my huge water change (1/2 accidental from the explosion) is paying off, the stuff on the back glass is loosing its foothold and shrinking by the day... need to change my RO/DI filters tonight, and going to order an inline TDS meter soon, thats one thing i have skimped on


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## jmax611

great setup.. would this work to help with Cyanobacteria issues???


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## Ægir

jmax611 said:


> great setup.. would this work to help with Cyanobacteria issues???


Absolutely, hair, slime, bubble, you name it....


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## jmax611

sweet when i setup a sump for my 190g im def gonna try this


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## Ægir

Day 4, there is noticeable growth on the screen, its a light brown color... kinda like the stuff growing on my glass. Its still faint, but i predict it taking off in the next few days! Looks like seeding the screen with scrapings from the display was a success











jmax611 said:


> sweet when i setup a sump for my 190g im def gonna try this


Why not build it now, and have it growing things by then? Thats the beauty of this whole thing, its soooo simple to lift out the pump, move the bucket to another tank (EVEN A FRIENDS TANK!) and then bring it back after a week if you need it... JUST DONT LET THE SCREEN DRY OUT and you could take it anywhere...


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## Moondemon

Nice work !


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## Ægir

Moondemon said:


> Nice work !


Thanks man! hopefully it works like it should









Day 6: i have been leaving the light on around 20 hours... you are supposed to have it off when your display tank lighting is on to reduce ph swings and such, but my problem is my MH lighting still shines on the screen and keeps it pretty well lit... so really i just have a 4 hour "cloudy sky" period? the good news is, GROWTH!


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## EZmoney

Wow! That is a killer diy project.


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## Ægir

gamgenius said:


> Wow! That is a killer diy project.


Thanks bro, it was easy and took about an hour to do and cost 30$ of parts, a spare pump that can cover the screen, and a bucket... i would highly recommend it for people who are fighting any sort of hair, slime, diatom, or any other algae problems... FRESH WATER OR SALT WATER even now it has stopped what was growing on my glass, and after a week i havent even mag floated it, normally it would be in need of a razor blade. I will keep updates posted as mine grows in, as its not even a week old now! After one more week i will clean the screen, and let it grow in thicker... its even darker than i last posted so, its def taking off!


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## Ægir

Day 11... things are really growing in now, and i think i might give my screen a light scraping on one side. I will post pics shortly


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## Ægir

Notice the hair algae starting to take hold... 









The bucket seems to be growing just as much as the screen.. that will be sprayed out next time









Nice even ripple of water at the bottom...









Now... time to wait some more...


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## nismo driver

i dont disagree that it works at growing algae but my logic is giving the feeling that this is doing two things

1 its acting like a wet dry which are considered to be a nitrate factory.

2 those nitrates are are now fueling the algae growth on the screen

so in teh end what are you really achieving and is that algae using up as much of the nitrates as the aerobic bacteria are creating? personally i think the anerobic bacter of a deep sand bed and growing macro algae would be just as effective if not more effective. but still a cool system.

just out of curiostiy were you testing your nitrates befoer running this thing and have you been testing after? did you have any problems with nutrients to begin with?


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## Ægir

nismo driver said:


> i dont disagree that it works at growing algae but my logic is giving the feeling that this is doing two things
> 
> 1 its acting like a wet dry which are considered to be a nitrate factory.
> 
> 2 those nitrates are are now fueling the algae growth on the screen
> 
> so in teh end what are you really achieving and is that algae using up as much of the nitrates as the aerobic bacteria are creating? personally i think the anerobic bacter of a deep sand bed and growing macro algae would be just as effective if not more effective. but still a cool system.
> 
> just out of curiostiy were you testing your nitrates befoer running this thing and have you been testing after? did you have any problems with nutrients to begin with?


It is adding extra O2 to my water no doubt, and aerobic (not anaerobic, which live in a lack of 02) bacteria are an after affect of that... the only reason wet drys are nitrate factories is because there is nothing to remove the nitrates and nitrites the bacteria are producing at a high rate, after they eat decomposing fish crap and food trapped in the bio balls (which also leeches nitrites) after it exits the filter its just food free water, with bacteria waste not fish waste...

I texted my N rates and rites before, they were low (less than 5 and .25) and i was having a problem with damn cyano or red/purple slime on my sand bed from time to time... so no Po4 because it was being consumed as it was created... i havent tested lately, waiting for the screen to grow in more, but i can already tell growth in the display has halted, and what used to grow off my sand 2" up my glass is taking 4 times as long to grow as it did before... Just for you i will test my water tomorrow

Skimmers remove everything organic (including pods, bacteria, plankton, anything they can suck in) all food for corals or something living in your rock or sand at some point, but dont remove nitrates or Po4 which is the main problem, they just hinder their growth by removing all the things that will potentally cause those things to rise (organic solids)... the turf algae leaves pods, and everything that is food so i can begin to grow a complete ecosystem, and not forcefully remove things i dont want, while at the same time rapidly absorbing all nutrients from the water keeping it full of food, and low in what algae needs to grow because its already being used to grow the bucket... and it will grow in the bucket because its easier, more light, more o2, and Co2 from the aerobic bacteria

Its a different take of a fuge with macro, but does the same thing with less space... My logic is as long as its growing in the bucket, its absorbing what was needed to grow in the display... and i dont have to look in the bucket all day


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## nismo driver

Skunkbudfour20 said:


> i dont disagree that it works at growing algae but my logic is giving the feeling that this is doing two things
> 
> 1 its acting like a wet dry which are considered to be a nitrate factory.
> 
> 2 those nitrates are are now fueling the algae growth on the screen
> 
> so in teh end what are you really achieving and is that algae using up as much of the nitrates as the aerobic bacteria are creating? personally i think the anerobic bacter of a deep sand bed and growing macro algae would be just as effective if not more effective. but still a cool system.
> 
> just out of curiostiy were you testing your nitrates befoer running this thing and have you been testing after? did you have any problems with nutrients to begin with?


It is adding extra O2 to my water no doubt, and aerobic (not anaerobic, which live in a lack of 02) bacteria are an after affect of that...* the only reason wet drys are nitrate factories is because there is nothing to remove the nitrates and nitrites the bacteria are producing at a high rate, after they eat decomposing fish crap and food trapped in the bio balls (which also leeches nitrites) after it exits the filter its just food free water, with bacteria waste not fish waste...

I texted my N rates and rites before, they were low (less than 5 and .25) and i was having a problem with damn cyano or red/purple slime on my sand bed from time to time... so no Po4 because it was being consumed as it was created... i havent tested lately, waiting for the screen to grow in more, but i can already tell growth in the display has halted, and what used to grow off my sand 2" up my glass is taking 4 times as long to grow as it did before... Just for you i will test my water tomorrow

Skimmers remove everything organic (including pods, bacteria, plankton, anything they can suck in) all food for corals or something living in your rock or sand at some point, but dont remove nitrates or Po4 which is the main problem, they just hinder their growth by removing all the things that will potentally cause those things to rise (organic solids)... the turf algae leaves pods, and everything that is food so i can begin to grow a complete ecosystem, and not forcefully remove things i dont want, while at the same time rapidly absorbing all nutrients from the water keeping it full of food, and low in what algae needs to grow because its already being used to grow the bucket... and it will grow in the bucket because its easier, more light, more o2, and Co2 from the aerobic bacteria

Its a different take of a fuge with macro, but does the same thing with less space... My logic is as long as its growing in the bucket, its absorbing what was needed to grow in the display... and i dont have to look in the bucket all day
[/quote]

this does make some sense.

i do to an extent disagree about skimmers, yes they do remove indiscriminately but they do remove protiens that this algae filter wont, they do remove some pods plankton ect but to do that is strings together protiens to form the bubbles that these larger particles stick to and lift up out into the collection cup.

i think both forms of filtration along with a traditional fuge would contribute to a more balanced system replicating te various natural actions, the skimmer acting like waves, the turf filter and refugium acting like coastal tidal estuaries*


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## Ægir

nismo driver said:


> i dont disagree that it works at growing algae but my logic is giving the feeling that this is doing two things
> 
> 1 its acting like a wet dry which are considered to be a nitrate factory.
> 
> 2 those nitrates are are now fueling the algae growth on the screen
> 
> so in teh end what are you really achieving and is that algae using up as much of the nitrates as the aerobic bacteria are creating? personally i think the anerobic bacter of a deep sand bed and growing macro algae would be just as effective if not more effective. but still a cool system.
> 
> just out of curiostiy were you testing your nitrates befoer running this thing and have you been testing after? did you have any problems with nutrients to begin with?


It is adding extra O2 to my water no doubt, and aerobic (not anaerobic, which live in a lack of 02) bacteria are an after affect of that...* the only reason wet drys are nitrate factories is because there is nothing to remove the nitrates and nitrites the bacteria are producing at a high rate, after they eat decomposing fish crap and food trapped in the bio balls (which also leeches nitrites) after it exits the filter its just food free water, with bacteria waste not fish waste...

I texted my N rates and rites before, they were low (less than 5 and .25) and i was having a problem with damn cyano or red/purple slime on my sand bed from time to time... so no Po4 because it was being consumed as it was created... i havent tested lately, waiting for the screen to grow in more, but i can already tell growth in the display has halted, and what used to grow off my sand 2" up my glass is taking 4 times as long to grow as it did before... Just for you i will test my water tomorrow

Skimmers remove everything organic (including pods, bacteria, plankton, anything they can suck in) all food for corals or something living in your rock or sand at some point, but dont remove nitrates or Po4 which is the main problem, they just hinder their growth by removing all the things that will potentally cause those things to rise (organic solids)... the turf algae leaves pods, and everything that is food so i can begin to grow a complete ecosystem, and not forcefully remove things i dont want, while at the same time rapidly absorbing all nutrients from the water keeping it full of food, and low in what algae needs to grow because its already being used to grow the bucket... and it will grow in the bucket because its easier, more light, more o2, and Co2 from the aerobic bacteria

Its a different take of a fuge with macro, but does the same thing with less space... My logic is as long as its growing in the bucket, its absorbing what was needed to grow in the display... and i dont have to look in the bucket all day
[/quote]

this does make some sense.

i do to an extent disagree about skimmers, yes they do remove indiscriminately but they do remove protiens that this algae filter wont, they do remove some pods plankton ect but to do that is strings together protiens to form the bubbles that these larger particles stick to and lift up out into the collection cup.

i think both forms of filtration along with a traditional fuge would contribute to a more balanced system replicating te various natural actions, the skimmer acting like waves, the turf filter and refugium acting like coastal tidal estuaries
[/quote]

You are right that my turf filter wont remove the organic proteins that the skimmer will, but those proteins can all be consumed and broken down further by something in my tank and turned into a couple of things: Nitrates, Po4, co2 etc... which the turf will absorb instantly
Like i said above, skimmers are "necessary" equipment because they remove organics (fish waste, extra food, etc)before they completely can be broken down and turned into Po4, nitrates and nitrites and from there become a problem in the tank... And it is completely incapable of removing anything that has been broken down further

My skimmer is still running right now, so i cant say its not doing anything, and a waste of space and money... but i definately think its taking things out that could be benefical to my tank, and things could be eating and naturally breaking them down into something i can pull out (nitrates, nitrites, and po4)... as opposed to still having the problem with nitrates and no organic waste because i am running a skimmer*


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## Ægir

Update! Just ran the plethora of tests (Just for you ND!)... Nitrates 0 Nitrites 0 Po4 0 (or un-detectable with my API testkits) I was sure something was wrong, so i ran them with both of my test kits... still the same. When i fired up "the bucket" i swapped out my Phosban (which was over 2 months old anyways, prob not doing much) and just filled both reactors with carbon. My tests just before the project read: Nitrates just below 5, Nitrites .25, P04 .25 so things have dropped... I also just noticed the algae on the back and side walls is loosing its hold, and the blue background is actually somewhat visible!

http://i46.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid46.photobucket.com/albums/f118/Skunkbudfour20/VID00040.flv


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## Ægir

UH... my skimmer has stopped working







not entirely, but i had to close my gate valve about 1/2 turn to push the lighter colored skimate over the top...

Conclusion... the turf algae filter is stealing my skimmate :laugh:

Last night i read 40 something pages on RC about turf algae scrubbers... interesting stuff for sure, basically i got the hint people were opposed to them because "if it aint broke, dont fix it"... seems there arent many people willing to actually test this, but the people that have, had only one complaint: "a slight tinting of the water" from the screen... simple to take care of with carbon!

Nismo... whats your take on this? want me to PM you the links to the RC thread?


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## nismo driver

Skunkbudfour20 said:


> UH... my skimmer has stopped working
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> not entirely, but i had to close my gate valve about 1/2 turn to push the lighter colored skimate over the top...
> 
> Conclusion... the turf algae filter is stealing my skimmate :laugh:
> 
> Last night i read 40 something pages on RC about turf algae scrubbers... interesting stuff for sure, basically i got the hint people were opposed to them because "if it aint broke, dont fix it"... seems there arent many people willing to actually test this, but the people that have, had only one complaint: "a slight tinting of the water" from the screen... simple to take care of with carbon!
> 
> Nismo... whats your take on this? want me to PM you the links to the RC thread?


please pm link


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## Ægir

nismo driver said:


> UH... my skimmer has stopped working
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> not entirely, but i had to close my gate valve about 1/2 turn to push the lighter colored skimate over the top...
> 
> Conclusion... the turf algae filter is stealing my skimmate :laugh:
> 
> Last night i read 40 something pages on RC about turf algae scrubbers... interesting stuff for sure, basically i got the hint people were opposed to them because "if it aint broke, dont fix it"... seems there arent many people willing to actually test this, but the people that have, had only one complaint: "a slight tinting of the water" from the screen... simple to take care of with carbon!
> 
> Nismo... whats your take on this? want me to PM you the links to the RC thread?


please pm link
[/quote]

Link sent nismo, let me know your take on it when you get done... Started feeding 2 times a day again, cut that back because it was the cause of my N and P problems, or atleast a contributing factor. Ran the gauntlet of tests again today, and still reading 0s across the board, and my PH has dropped a lil bit as well but i am sure its not abnormal fluctuation, prob due to the fact i tested about an hour after the lights came on...


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## Ægir

Not that there has been much interest, but i will throw out a quick update... The algae has definitely taken off, and is starting to grow in quite thick, i cleaned the screen and got about a golf ball sized clump of some good thick slime free algae..

Still reading 0s across the board, and i will get some pics up when i have a chance... Also starting another plumbing project, so maybe i will do that write up i was supposed to do when i won the DIY contest?


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## Ægir

After 23 or 24 days... 3 scrapings and only a collection cup half full of skimate (1/3 normal, and i have been closing the gate valve to push more out







)



















Its definitely not slimy like the first cleaning, and its more resistant to coming off with my fingernail... like super tough hair algae! Growth in my display has halted, and is slowly receding


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## Ægir

Cleaned the screen again today, harvested about twice as much as last time! This thing is really working good so far...

Anybody else built one/ thinking of building one yet?

Nismo, any feedback from the PM i sent you?


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## Ægir

Well, i will let the pictures do the talking...

BEFORE i installed my "T.A.S."....








Notice the blotchy growth on the back glass...

TODAY after removing the last small (4"x6") patch off the back glass









Notice you can actually see the blue background


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## Ægir

Scraping number 4 went well, collecting more every time!

Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Phosphates:00
Alk: 10Dkh
Ca: 440ppm
PH: 8.3

And when i say 0 i think "Untraceable" is a better way to think of that, because i am sure there are minute amounts my test kit doenst register... Theres been a small amount of growth in the display on the back panel, one one spot on the sand, but i think a good water change will fix that (when my salt gets here)... never like to use all of my salt in case of an over-top off emergency or something...


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## jman785

I saw this and wanted to comment.

I've been in the saltwater hobby for nearly 12 years. I've done a lot of marine specimen research, etc, and I have never seen anything as remarkable as a Turf Scrubber. I made some similar to yours, but they stayed in sump and I just removed them once a week, cleaned one side and left one side to do the seeding...I did this roughly 5 years ago for the first time and recently repeated it about 4 months ago...I have yet to see any algae growth in a tank that hasn't had a water change in over 2 years







I don't advocate no water changes due to the ionic balance being possibly thrown out of whack...but I can put my name on the line and say these actually work....a 12x18 sheet of the mesh is enough for a huge tank, I forget exactly but I'm thinking in the range of 150-200 gallons...a small mag 5 is enough to pump over the screen.

Anyway just thought I would comment


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## Ægir

jman785 said:


> I saw this and wanted to comment.
> 
> I've been in the saltwater hobby for nearly 12 years. I've done a lot of marine specimen research, etc, and I have never seen anything as remarkable as a Turf Scrubber. I made some similar to yours, but they stayed in sump and I just removed them once a week, cleaned one side and left one side to do the seeding...I did this roughly 5 years ago for the first time and recently repeated it about 4 months ago...I have yet to see any algae growth in a tank that hasn't had a water change in over 2 years
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't advocate no water changes due to the ionic balance being possibly thrown out of whack...but I can put my name on the line and say these actually work....a 12x18 sheet of the mesh is enough for a huge tank, I forget exactly but I'm thinking in the range of 150-200 gallons...a small mag 5 is enough to pump over the screen.
> 
> Anyway just thought I would comment


They are extremely remarkable, but they* DONT replace *things like water-changes, skimmers, etc... They are just another tool to create the perfect balance of exporting nutrients... The screen i am using is like 12"x16" and its working great in about 220gals of total system volume...

Get back on a regular water change schedule and quit being a slacker!


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## jman785

I have a friend that uses a larger version and has completed removed his skimmer from the system and does top offs and water changes every 6 months...some of the most beautiful pieces of coral that I have came from his system...take a look at some of my old threads on pictures...

One of those tanks was skimmerless and was remarkably spotless to have no skimmer.

- Jared


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## Ægir

jman785 said:


> I have a friend that uses a larger version and has completed removed his skimmer from the system and does top offs and water changes every 6 months...some of the most beautiful pieces of coral that I have came from his system...take a look at some of my old threads on pictures...
> 
> One of those tanks was skimmerless and was remarkably spotless to have no skimmer.
> 
> - Jared


Yeah, i have seen some skimmer-less systems that are great looking but personally after seeing what mine pulls out, even with my T.A.S. i wouldnt dare leave that in there or skip water changes... This hobby isnt about cutting corners, and some people are lucky and get away with it for a period of time, eventually it bites them in the ass... some people even use tap water instead of RO/DI but its just asking for problems

find me a tank of the month from reefcentral that isnt running a skimmer, or doing weekly water changes and i would consider it possible in a long term sense

I still change 80 galls of water every other week, and my topoff is automated...


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## jman785

I have seen a few TOTM without a skimmer on RC...but they all have heavily packed fuges, and/or a turf algae scrubber. Some with large DSB's also.

I've had one of my tanks running for over 6 years without a skimmer at my parents house...its a 135 gallon.

- Jared


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## Ægir

jman785 said:


> I have seen a few TOTM without a skimmer on RC...but they all have heavily packed fuges, and/or a turf algae scrubber. Some with large DSB's also.
> 
> I've had one of my tanks running for over 6 years without a skimmer at my parents house...its a 135 gallon.
> 
> - Jared


yeah, maybe a few tanks, but 99% are running a skimmer... like i said its personal preference, and i prefer not to cut corners... Any current pics of that tank?


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## jman785




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## Ægir

Looks pretty good, the sand and water seem kinda dirty but i really cant tell from the pictures... If i were you i would add a skimmer, and see what happens just for fun

Want to send me some frags? hahaha... im just starting to get to the point i am comfortable with stability to add more than mushrooms and zoas


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## jman785

The glass is dirty and the camera sucks haha. They aren't that dirty...but I do use skimmers on tanks....but I'm saying its perfectly possible to not use them and get away with it for years. Those tanks are in a green house and have supplemental metal halide lighting. They are located at our research facility in NW Florida.

If your into reading and research, Anthony Calfo has some great dirt out on Turf Algae Scrubbers....he and another guy I can't recall who, but they ran a huge system with a TAS and no skimmer. A skimmer removes proteins before they are able to be turned into Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate...but if you have plants...it does that too, but its natural and your not constantly worried about the cup overflowing, cleaning the neck of the skimmer, and cleaning the venturi and all that crap that comes with a skimmer. Even though I prefer the TAS, I still recommend that people still use a skimmer. A lot of my tanks are research tanks and experimental disease tanks, etc. Another way you can avoid using a skimmer is having a constantly changing water system...costly though


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## Ægir

jman785 said:


> The glass is dirty and the camera sucks haha. They aren't that dirty...but I do use skimmers on tanks....but I'm saying its perfectly possible to not use them and get away with it for years. Those tanks are in a green house and have supplemental metal halide lighting. They are located at our research facility in NW Florida.
> 
> If your into reading and research, Anthony Calfo has some great dirt out on Turf Algae Scrubbers....he and another guy I can't recall who, but they ran a huge system with a TAS and no skimmer. A skimmer removes proteins before they are able to be turned into Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate...but if you have plants...it does that too, but its natural and your not constantly worried about the cup overflowing, cleaning the neck of the skimmer, and cleaning the venturi and all that crap that comes with a skimmer. Even though I prefer the TAS, I still recommend that people still use a skimmer. A lot of my tanks are research tanks and experimental disease tanks, etc. *Another way you can avoid using a skimmer is having a constantly changing water system...costly though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


I have done more reading about this subject than i would like to admit... all the neigh-sayers were the reason i had to try it for myself... if it didnt work its still just spare parts i had laying around so...

Prob not as expensive as my skimmer... Precision Marine isnt cheap, But far less than BubbleKing! I am totally impressed with my skimmer/Pump Combo so far... Once a week i empty my cup, and forget about it till the next sunday... 
THE TOWER OF POWER









BTW once again, great looking setup... and if you are interested i would love to buy some frags from you when i get home


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## jman785

I might be able to arrange something...I really don't have any available now, as the ones pictured all had something wrong with them pretty much. We are researching coral diseases. A lot of them were sent in by hobbyists...


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## Ægir

jman785 said:


> I might be able to arrange something...I really don't have any available now, as the ones pictured all had something wrong with them pretty much. *We are researching coral diseases.* A lot of them were sent in by hobbyists...


Wow man thats cool! Let me know...

Just got home from vacation, Had a timer malfunction on the light when i was gone so it didnt kick on for atleast a week+ by the look of it... Something my bro wasnt asked to check because i was just going to let it run 24-7 but didnt unplug the timer... Its a situation like that im glad i run my skimmer/ TAS combo


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## jman785

Atleast you had power....


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## Ægir

jman785 said:


> Atleast you had power....


Yeah... that happened last time i was out of town


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## Ægir

So over the past few days i have noticed some more algae growth in my display...after hours of thinking about it the only theory i have is that ambient light from the scrubber is the cause. When the timer malfunctioned and i was gone, the display totally cleared up... when i turned the light back on the growth started again so i knew it was something to do with the scrubber light... i dont want to make a lid for it because of trapped heat, so i guess i have a couple options... next cleaning i may paint the bucket black on the outside?

I put the light on the same timer as my 175W halides, which are on for about 8 hours per day, if i see die off on the screen i will move that to my actinic lighting timer, which is around 11 hours ... therefore leaving my tank in complete darkness


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## Ægir

As of today, i scrapped the scrubber... I dont think i was providing enough light/lighting time without causing negative effects in my display (ambient light)... I think its a great concept but my plan needs to be re-vamped on a few levels

Ideally i would use a MH light source (Or solar tube!) and use a more efficient screen setup (a square or triangle with the bulb suspended in the middle)... also isolating the scrubber more from the display would be a big one... We will see where i go with this

Planning on changing the bucket to a remote DSB/Cheato area but havent made that final...


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## redbellyman21

Skunkbudfour20 said:


> As of today, i scrapped the scrubber... I dont think i was providing enough light/lighting time without causing negative effects in my display (ambient light)... I think its a great concept but my plan needs to be re-vamped on a few levels
> 
> Ideally i would use a MH light source (Or solar tube!) and use a more efficient screen setup (a square or triangle with the bulb suspended in the middle)... also isolating the scrubber more from the display would be a big one... We will see where i go with this
> 
> Planning on changing the bucket to a remote DSB/Cheato area but havent made that final...


well I am planning on building this in the next couple weeks, my question is whats wrong with using a coral life saltwater light? (and like 12 by 8 in dimesnisons) they are those 9-24 watt 10k and actnic lil lights, i use them on all my fuges.. I currently dont have a sump, so I was going to make a small sump out of a rubbermaid container or something similar... or maybe a 10 gallon tank as the return housing... but we shall see


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## jman785

Nothing wrong with that light except the low wattage, although it should work fine, although a 70 Watt MH would work great too providing more useable wattage for the algae to flourish...nothing wrong with flourecent, incandescent, or HID for this purpose.

Its actually best to light both sides of the TAS (Turf Algae Scrubber), once the algae develops, you'll clean one side with a razor blade, then next week clean the opposite side, and vice versa.


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## Ægir

jman785 said:


> Nothing wrong with that light except the low wattage, although it should work fine, although a 70 Watt MH would work great too providing more useable wattage for the algae to flourish...nothing wrong with flourecent, incandescent, or HID for this purpose.
> 
> Its actually best to light both sides of the TAS (Turf Algae Scrubber), once the algae develops, you'll clean one side with a razor blade, then next week clean the opposite side, and vice versa.


Yeah, i would like to do a 175w halide (or a solar tube) surrounded on 4 sides with screens... i like the intensity and ability to control spectrum over the CFL screw ins... It wasnt a problem with lighting both sides of my screen or having enough light, light from my halides on my tank hit one side pretty good, and the other light worked good on the shaded side... The problem was when the scrubber light was on at night, the ambient light from the glowing white bucket in the back room still lit my display, and was contributing to more algae growth than it was helping... and when i cut the lighting back to the same hours as my Actinic lighting, growth stood still on the scrubber and it wasnt worth running the light and pump

Separation is key, hopefully my next tank will have the sump/equipment room in the basement below the display or something... allowing me to run the lighting 18 or 24 hours per day... For now i am focusing on tweaking some small things plumbing wise in my sump, and doing some routine large water changes... Also starting to dose MG now


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## redbellyman21

Skunkbudfour20 said:


> Nothing wrong with that light except the low wattage, although it should work fine, although a 70 Watt MH would work great too providing more useable wattage for the algae to flourish...nothing wrong with flourecent, incandescent, or HID for this purpose.
> 
> Its actually best to light both sides of the TAS (Turf Algae Scrubber), once the algae develops, you'll clean one side with a razor blade, then next week clean the opposite side, and vice versa.


Yeah, i would like to do a 175w halide (or a solar tube) surrounded on 4 sides with screens... i like the intensity and ability to control spectrum over the CFL screw ins... It wasnt a problem with lighting both sides of my screen or having enough light, light from my halides on my tank hit one side pretty good, and the other light worked good on the shaded side... The problem was when the scrubber light was on at night, the ambient light from the glowing white bucket in the back room still lit my display, and was contributing to more algae growth than it was helping... and when i cut the lighting back to the same hours as my Actinic lighting, growth stood still on the scrubber and it wasnt worth running the light and pump

Separation is key, hopefully my next tank will have the sump/equipment room in the basement below the display or something... allowing me to run the lighting 18 or 24 hours per day... For now i am focusing on tweaking some small things plumbing wise in my sump, and doing some routine large water changes... Also starting to dose MG now
[/quote]

what about sopmethign as simple as putting a ply wood plank in between, drill the hole for the line, I mean there is always room for having a wood plank to mount things, in the video of ur setup the bucket is a lil off from the stand, so bolt the plank to the stand, and drill the holes... I mean sounds easy enough..


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## Ægir

redbellyman21 said:


> Nothing wrong with that light except the low wattage, although it should work fine, although a 70 Watt MH would work great too providing more useable wattage for the algae to flourish...nothing wrong with flourecent, incandescent, or HID for this purpose.
> 
> Its actually best to light both sides of the TAS (Turf Algae Scrubber), once the algae develops, you'll clean one side with a razor blade, then next week clean the opposite side, and vice versa.


Yeah, i would like to do a 175w halide (or a solar tube) surrounded on 4 sides with screens... i like the intensity and ability to control spectrum over the CFL screw ins... It wasnt a problem with lighting both sides of my screen or having enough light, light from my halides on my tank hit one side pretty good, and the other light worked good on the shaded side... The problem was when the scrubber light was on at night, the ambient light from the glowing white bucket in the back room still lit my display, and was contributing to more algae growth than it was helping... and when i cut the lighting back to the same hours as my Actinic lighting, growth stood still on the scrubber and it wasnt worth running the light and pump

Separation is key, hopefully my next tank will have the sump/equipment room in the basement below the display or something... allowing me to run the lighting 18 or 24 hours per day... For now i am focusing on tweaking some small things plumbing wise in my sump, and doing some routine large water changes... Also starting to dose MG now
[/quote]

what about sopmethign as simple as putting a ply wood plank in between, drill the hole for the line, I mean there is always room for having a wood plank to mount things, in the video of ur setup the bucket is a lil off from the stand, so bolt the plank to the stand, and drill the holes... I mean sounds easy enough..
[/quote]

That just makes it a pain in the ass to get to my timers, power strips, skimmer (collection cup also), and the bucket itself when i need to clean it... I would basically have to make a plywood box (a single piece wouldnt do much) that completely covered the bucket and light, and then i would loose all evaporation and cooling factor, not to mention the humidity would turn any wood into mush

That and i try to avoid "ghetto" ugliness when it comes to my setup...


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## SantaMonicaHelp

Good to see folks building scrubbers here. If anyone needs help, let us know.


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## Ægir

SantaMonicaHelp said:


> Good to see folks building scrubbers here. If anyone needs help, let us know.


It was a fun experiment... but overall extremely hyped up, and over rated. Only under a few special circumstances would i ever use one again.


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## SantaMonicaHelp

Did you ever fix the light? The light cannot be on top of the screen.Because it'll only grow dark algae. The light needs to be on the sides. Also, did you ever change to roughed up plastic canvas? Because the tank divider material will let go of clumps of algae.


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## Ægir

SantaMonicaHelp said:


> Did you ever fix the light? The light cannot be on top of the screen.Because it'll only grow dark algae. The light needs to be on the sides. Also, did you ever change to roughed up plastic canvas? Because the tank divider material will let go of clumps of algae.


The problem for me was not enough light or screen surface area I think... Even with 2 big CFL spotlights. If I could use MH or HPS 400w or something similar, possibly LEDs I would try it again. Would also want to use a programmer of some sorts to create a surge in the water flow and create more air exposure. I would also use a pre grown sheet to seed my new ones instead of waiting it out. The tank divider held pretty well, after being roughed up with sand paper but im sure a plastic canvas would work better. My skimmate production did slow down, but also stayed down when i took the scrubber off line... not sure if it boosted me through a cycle or what.

Like I said, there are a few circumstances I would use one... its so much easier to empty skimmate every week and not constantly screw around with pne of these. The tank this was setup on was upgraded to almost 450 gallons, 275 of display, and 150 give or take sump and rock, and the same skimmer... The tank has been running great for over a year now with no problems, and minimal maintenance as the owner is frequently out of town. Monthly water changes of 40 gals, feeding the fish, and emptying the skimmer cup twice a month. Theres a build thread if you want to check it out.


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