# Experimenting with breeding p. cariba



## primetime3wise

some of you know i have been talking about this for a few weeks, at least, now. i am in the midst of changing my setup and variables to try and breed cariba. i am not simulating the wet and dry seasons, yet, as i want to start making changes slowly and gradually, so i can see what works.

here's my setup:

http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?showtopic=186370

it's pretty much the same, right now, except i added some (fake) plants into the front of the middle area, for cover for the fish. pretty much i have it split up into 3 breeding areas, as i hope you can see from the pic, sectioned off by driftwood and fake rock. i am gonna get more floating plants tomorrow, as they seem to like the cover it affords them, and maybe, even some more regular fake ones.

other than that, i just added a bunch of peat granules to my wet/dry filter to soften the water and lower the ph. it's at 7 right now, from just using driftwood to lower it, and i would like to get it closer to 6.

in the morning i am gonna raise the temp to about 82-84 or so, while i am at work, and see if that helps to stimulate them at all, along with the water parameters. i just did about a 25% water change.

should be interesting to see if i get any pre-breeding behavior and/or darkening. if i get nothing by thursday, i am gonna do another large water change with cooler water, then let it raise up to 84 again on its own. if i still see nothing, then over the coming weekend i will start to simulate the wet/dry seasons by lowering the water down to about 1/3 of full for a week, then raise it back thereafter.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

nice to see you attempting this... not only do you devote a lot of your time to your breeding attempts, but you also take the extra time to keep everyone here updated, which i'm sure everyone else appreciates as much as i do... good luck man


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## primetime3wise

thanks and no problem at all. i am welcome to any suggestions and help because it's no like this has been done a lot before, and, going into this, i am sure it is going to be more difficult than breeding natts or macs. those two it's mostly a matter of good conditions and some luck.

i should mention it is 5 caribas. two @ about 7" (one gets picked on a lot, the other is feisty and nasty, a finger chaser too), two @ about 8"-9", and the largest maybe 1/2" to 1" more.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

are you still looking to add more?


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## cobrafox46

Hope it works for Ya Man!!! I would love to see it happen!


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## primetime3wise

joedizzlempls said:


> are you still looking to add more?


yeah, if i come across one or two more reasonably far, or shipping i wouldn't exactly be opposed to it. i am looking for ones at least 7", preferably even larger like 8"-9". with what i have now it is kind of like trying it with only 4 because one of the smaller ones isn't going to do anything, i am 90% sure, as he gets chased all day from area to area. i could just add one or two and let it acclimate before i get much more into it. know of any fs?


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

i could maybe ship you mine, but it's only about 6"... i could check tonight and see for sure and let you know


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## primetime3wise

ok, pm me if you don't mind and we'll talk more, i appreciate the thought.


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## xeloR

Good luck man- I will be fallowing your thread!


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## bigshawn

Good luck, I'll be watching!!!!!


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## THE BLACK PIRANHA

Good Luck I hope it works for you.


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## primetime3wise

thanks alot guys, i hope so to.

i raised the temp before i left for work this morning. i am interested in if that and the peat has any effect on them, even if it is not actual spawning, and just darkening or maybe digging in the gravel.


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## Trigga

Best of luck with this dude I'm sure you will make it happen.

I remember reading something about the guy whofirst bred caribe in captivity coVered the sides ofthe tank with black and well as the back.. Not too sure about the front but I will try and dig up the article for you


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## primetime3wise

Trigga said:


> Best of luck with this dude I'm sure you will make it happen.
> 
> I remember reading something about the guy whofirst bred caribe in captivity coVered the sides ofthe tank with black and well as the back.. Not too sure about the front but I will try and dig up the article for you


thanks. that would be helpful if you could dig that up. i do believe that the guy mentioned on opefe, jim smith, covered all sides of the tank, i believe, as they like almost complete privacy. the only thing i find strange about that is my cariba are a lot less skittish than when i was breeding reds, so it's weird in the fact i would think it wouldn't matter much to them. i will probably though do it when i recreate the wet and dry seasons.

my heater has issues and was not able to get the temp as high as i wanted. so, i will try again tomorrow to get it to like 84 or so, then do a nice large cooler water change over the weekend and see if that stimulates them. if not, then i will get into the wet/dry seasons. it's fine because with moving the decor around a little they are a little less settled than before and this will give them more time to adjust. i will say that with feeding them a varied diet of smelt, shrimp, krill, catfish, and silversides, their color has really come alive on them, which is nice.

there was a real interesting article that i believe "gigante piranha" (is that wayne?) posted in another thread about breeding caribe, that dealt with the endocrine changes that take place w/ p. cariba during the change over between the wet and dry seasons. from that article and the little info on opefe, i am almost certain it is going to take the recreation of the seasons in my tank. perhaps maybe only a nice cooler water change like i described earlier, but i think more than likely a long dry season needs to be applied.

my only real worries are if i don't have enough fish of breeding age. it's only like having 4 adults, because like i said one of the smaller ones gets picked on all the time, so i rule him out. then another is like the same size as him, 7", so i don't know if a 9" one would mate with a considerably smaller one. basically i wish i had one or two larger ones for this project, in the 8-10" range, but what can i do, it's not like there are a lot that size available. if i fail after a try or two of the seasons, i will def. look for like 2 more to add to my group before attempting it again.


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## primetime3wise

here i found what i was referencing, just click then select to read it in .pdf or html format

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g5l31475154t0196/


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## Trigga

Im pretty sure that the Jim smith thing was what I read.

I totally agree dude something happens between the dry season and the wet season that triggers them to spawn.. I will be conducting a similar little project this summer with my piraya in an outdoor pond


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## primetime3wise

yeah, even if you don't read all of the article i referenced, just look at the charts in it, they speak for themselves, i.e. the testosterone and estradiol levels of males and females during certain times of the year.


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## philbert

this should be good. i will def be following


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## Fishnut2

Best of luck Prime!


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

ok prime, i checked and i think my caribe is a little over 6 inches... i am doing tank maintenance tomorrow so i can get a better measurement when the water is low. if you are interested, let me know...


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## His Majesty

I comend you on your efforts prime.

best of luck to you.
ill defintely tag along.


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## primetime3wise

joedizzlempls said:


> ok prime, i checked and i think my caribe is a little over 6 inches... i am doing tank maintenance tomorrow so i can get a better measurement when the water is low. if you are interested, let me know...


thanks for the offer, but i'm gonna pass. i would like one larger, in the 8"-10" range, maybe even larger because if i tossed yours in he would likely be last in the tank, in the pecking order and would get picked on my even my 7" ones. also, @ 6" yours might not be sexually mature, they achieve that in the 6-7" range. again, thank for at least thinking of me.

thanks everyone else for the kind words and encouragement. the temp on the tank is around 82, but i see no differences or signs of breeding, just a little more fighting between them. i plan to do a nice cool water change over the extended weekend to see if that may be enough to get them going. i have my doubts and i think i will end up trying to simulate the wet/dry seasons.


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## primetime3wise

Trigga said:


> Im pretty sure that the Jim smith thing was what I read.
> 
> I totally agree dude something happens between the dry season and the wet season that triggers them to spawn.. I will be conducting a similar little project this summer with my piraya in an outdoor pond


that would probably be your best bet for breeding piraya, a very large pond, whether indoor or outdoor. hell, i don't think they have ever been bred, correct me if i am wrong on that. if you are able to that would be
















your first concern though is if the piraya will be of breeding age/size by then.


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## Trigga

I think they will be.. They are all around 4" now and will probably be in the same size range as your caribe by early may when I add them in.

Are you doing anything with the lighting when you simulate the dry and wet seasons?


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## primetime3wise

Trigga said:


> I think they will be.. They are all around 4" now and will probably be in the same size range as your caribe by early may when I add them in.
> 
> Are you doing anything with the lighting when you simulate the dry and wet seasons?


i thought a little about that and i wasn't really planning it one way or the other. i know piranhas dislike lighting, but they also tend to get used to it. having the lights real dim or even off i guess could help them relax. i really though havn't seen much info/data about that. are you of the opinion i should have them off, or at least maybe have them on less during the day?


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## Trigga

I was thinking something more like dimming the lights during the "wet season" and maybe blasting some full spectrum lights to simulate the sun during the dry season.. It might make absolutely zero difference but hey then again it might make THE difference..


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## primetime3wise

it certainly couldn't hurt and i will do that. since they are conditioned to take cues from the environment, the contrast between the lighting in the two seasons could be another thing to get them going. yep, more lighting during the longer days of the dry season. plus, they tend to breed in the early evening, when the natural light is dimming.


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## Us And Them

primetime3wise said:


> it certainly couldn't hurt and i will do that. since they are conditioned to take cues from the environment, the contrast between the lighting in the two seasons could be another thing to get them going. yep, more lighting during the longer days of the dry season. plus, they tend to breed in the early evening, when the natural light is dimming.


Hey Prime , i've been thinking . Wouldnt it make more sense to Cover EVERY Side as oppose to just the 3 sides??? Think about it. Completely take away any Human Interaction , Perhaps you should stop feeding them by hand , like they expect . Try Dropping In Different types of Feeder Fish all week . And let them Pick off them as a source for food.

You have to Bring these Fish back to their Prime Insticts of , Eating , Mating ,Fighting and shoaling.
I sure as hell know , I cant stand having Sex If any of my Cats are in the room lol its creepy... Gotta kick all of em out... hahah

Maybe Your Caribe , Doesnt wanna Screw in front of Humans hehe

But joking aside , i want you to try Just completely covering your tank , Perhaps Get a LIGHT DIMMER and simulate what you feel the light would be like (dim morning , Bright all Day, Dim Night)

I like how you added more cover , thats surely to help.

Keep us posted !


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## primetime3wise

CrazeeJon said:


> it certainly couldn't hurt and i will do that. since they are conditioned to take cues from the environment, the contrast between the lighting in the two seasons could be another thing to get them going. yep, more lighting during the longer days of the dry season. plus, they tend to breed in the early evening, when the natural light is dimming.


Hey Prime , i've been thinking . Wouldnt it make more sense to Cover EVERY Side as oppose to just the 3 sides??? Think about it. Completely take away any Human Interaction , Perhaps you should stop feeding them by hand , like they expect . Try Dropping In Different types of Feeder Fish all week . And let them Pick off them as a source for food.

You have to Bring these Fish back to their Prime Insticts of , Eating , Mating ,Fighting and shoaling.
I sure as hell know , I cant stand having Sex If any of my Cats are in the room lol its creepy... Gotta kick all of em out... hahah

Maybe Your Caribe , Doesnt wanna Screw in front of Humans hehe

But joking aside , i want you to try Just completely covering your tank , Perhaps Get a LIGHT DIMMER and simulate what you feel the light would be like (dim morning , Bright all Day, Dim Night)

I like how you added more cover , thats surely to help.

Keep us posted !
[/quote]

yeah, i was plannng to cover every side of the tank when i get home from work. i will then do a large water change on sunday or monday, bringing the temp down to like 74-76, then letting it go back up again to like 84, maybe higher. after that, next day or two, if no signs of breeding, i will simulate the seasons with all sides covered and i will adjust the lighting...though that i may also do this evening when i get home from work. i like the dimmer idea and it would be easy step to carry out. i believe jim smith (bred them, article on opefe) said they like privacy, so yea all sides to the tank will be covered. maybe, just maybe they will go at it without simulating the seasons. also, i can get an idea for people that try this in the future what works and doesn't.

i also like the idea of using feeders, temporarily. i remember reading a few posts about people who bred reds saying they tossed in feeders when they changed the water temp to get them going and excited, and i hear you about it bringing out their natural instincts.

i am going to pick up even more plants this evening, as well. they really (all p's) like cover, esp. w/ humans around, that too is simulating the natural environment. they especially like to hang out underneath the areas that have a lot of floating plants.

thanks for the input, i always welcome it, you've given me some more ideas and variables to consider. if anyone else ever wants to chime in with suggestions, i am more than welcome to hearing them.

the fish are pretty much the same, they seemed slightly darker last night, but i don't think it is anything to get excited about. only other difference is more fighting with the temp higher, but really its all around not too bad.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

primetime3wise said:


> ok prime, i checked and i think my caribe is a little over 6 inches... i am doing tank maintenance tomorrow so i can get a better measurement when the water is low. if you are interested, let me know...


thanks for the offer, but i'm gonna pass. i would like one larger, in the 8"-10" range, maybe even larger because if i tossed yours in he would likely be last in the tank, in the pecking order and would get picked on my even my 7" ones. also, @ 6" yours might not be sexually mature, they achieve that in the 6-7" range. again, thank for at least thinking of me.
[/quote]

yeah, i get it, my fish isn't good enough for you....









haha, well if you are still attempting and i still have him when he hits 8 inches or so, he's yours if you pay for shipping


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## primetime3wise

ok thanks. i just have my doubts as to whether my larger ones, 3 of them, at around 8"-9" would hook up with a smaller one...and like i said yours may not be sexually mature.


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## primetime3wise

the fish are considerably darker now. most of their body was a very light gray and now it's noticeably a dark grey. i don't think it is anything to do with breeding, like i said, but maybe, hopefully it means they are more settled and comfortable? maybe they like the lower ph from using peat and since i have not moved decor around the past few days, they are more settled. this is speculation but i don't know what else it could mean. there has been no signs of breeding, no digging in gravel, and no pair has hooked up in terms of seeming they like they might go at it in time.

i wasn't able to make it to the lfs to get more fake plants for cover, but will tomorrow. i will be adding more and also i am going to completely cover the front of the tank, as i have said from what i have heard, they need almost complete privacy to get into the mood for sexy time. i think i am gonna leave the temp around 84-85 until monday, then do a large water change with cooler water. this might be enough to get them going, if not then i will really get into it by dropping the water down to about 1/3 full, and go from there. i will simulate the dry season for at least a week, possibly longer, then fill it back up with cooler water. hopefully though, my efforts this weekend will pay off...

i am considering not feeding them until monday, now, and to use feeders when i do it, to get them a little excited.


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## primetime3wise

joedizzlempls said:


> ok prime, i checked and i think my caribe is a little over 6 inches... i am doing tank maintenance tomorrow so i can get a better measurement when the water is low. if you are interested, let me know...


thanks for the offer, but i'm gonna pass. i would like one larger, in the 8"-10" range, maybe even larger because if i tossed yours in he would likely be last in the tank, in the pecking order and would get picked on my even my 7" ones. also, @ 6" yours might not be sexually mature, they achieve that in the 6-7" range. again, thank for at least thinking of me.
[/quote]

yeah, i get it, my fish isn't good enough for you....









haha, well if you are still attempting and i still have him when he hits 8 inches or so, he's yours if you pay for shipping
[/quote]

actually. what i will do, and i appreciate your offering. if mine don't go at it this time around, after i simulate the seasons, i will def. look into acquiring yours. also, the way the setup is now, i don't wanna "rock the boat" by adding a new fish. who knows, maybe yours would go at it with one of my 2 smaller ones.

does your caribe have a bad attitude? haha, i ask that because then he will have a chance with mine. of my 2 smaller ones, 1 is the bitch of the tank and gets picked on and chased by all the others. the other has a real bad attitude, lol, and will fight with the larger ones and is generally not intimidated by them, though, he will usually eventually back down when they start to get into fighting. not surprisingly, he will finger chase from time to time. the bitch of the tank, well, i think he is almost just taking up room. they chase him out of their respective territories, all freakin' day long and he never puts up a fight. he's a ***.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

its actually the smallest of the three that i had, but he was the toughest of the bunch... i have been trying to find a new home for him so i can take down the tank that he is in, but there is just no market for fish around my area. if i still have him when you get to that point, he's yours... i'd rather donate him to a good cause than have him sitting here occupying a tank that i don't want to be set up anymore.


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## primetime3wise

quick update. i still have the temp hovering around 84, i am gonna bump it up to 86 until thursday. i have off from work then, so i will do a large water change and drop it down to like 76 or so. i figure why not try that, as it will have the higher temp for a longer time, and hopefully, that will get them going.

i also have covered the front of the tank for complete privacy. coming and going in the room they are in def. disrupts them, as any piranha keeper can attest to, and i read that article on opefe saying they need almost complete privacy. a nice thing is they are pretty settled, as they don't go nuts with me near the tank, and each cariba seems to have his or her own territory picked out.

i am thinking of starving them until thursday, as well, but have not made a decision on that, as i worry about them maybe going after each other. i am def. going to toss in some feeders after i change and drop the temp. i will also dim my lighting then, and also turn it completely off earlier in the day.

oh, and i did buy more plants, some floating ones, i know they like the cover it affords, as well.

....and if all this does not work, i will get more into simulating the seasons by dropping the water down to like 1/3 of full, for 1-2 weeks, then filling it back up with cooler water.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS

thanks for the update


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## primetime3wise

joedizzlempls said:


> thanks for the update


np. if all that fails i will take yours if he is still available then, then try again after he settles in the cohab.

and if all that fails...i will try breeding guppies and convicts


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## Trigga

I think you should starve them during the dry season and make food plentiful during the other times and maybe slowly dwindle the food as you transition into the dry season

thanks for the update man I hope you get it to work


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## primetime3wise

i was thinking that...i may even take it to saturday for the CONTRAST to be longer between the two seasons...though i did not empty out any water this first try. i just tossed in some feeders and won't feed until i do the large water change. it's kinda uncomfortable not being able to monitor them closely, but there's not much i can do except look from above and take a peak at the sides of the tank after i unfold some of the covered sides.

gonna have my timer on for about 6am-9pm of light this week, then change it to around 8am to 6pm when i change to the wet season.

i guess the only factor i am not changing is the lowered water levels, we'll see what happens this time around. plenty of fish will breed with just changing a bunch of cooler water, dropping it several degrees, then letting it warm back up.

and damn, i just checked my ph, and it is 6.0! possibly lower because my test kit doesn't go lower. it is around 7.4-.7.6 out of the tap. i got it to 7.0 with just a lot of driftwood, as i noted earlier. the peat has then dropped it to what it is at now. i hope that keeping it that low during this go around, that not starting out higher, then dropping it, is a factor. we'll have to see. you guys think i should maybe do a water change, take out the peat, then put it back in when i simulate the dry, or just keep it at 6.0? i also do have some black water extract, so i may use some just to reduce light levels, as well...but just a little.

and lol, as far the feeders go. i think this is the first time i am feeding any of my pygos feeders. i just bet the caribe are chasing after them in there. what's funny is i gave my 4 piraya some as well, and its amusing watching them try and catch them, but, not being very good at it.


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## primetime3wise

i am gonna take out about 3/4 of the water, right now, i just decided. i will turn off my 3 filters, as well (2 HOB and my wet/dry that has peat), but leave the two air pumps on. i will then add just a little regular tap water to get the ph up a little, and leave the temp at 85 +/- range.

i will leave it this way and starve them until next weekend. i figure if i am gonna give this proper effort, i may as go all the way...

look for pics and maybe a short video to follow, hopefully later tonight or later this week.


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## ChilDawg

primetime3wise said:


> thanks for the update


np. if all that fails i will take yours if he is still available then, then try again after he settles in the cohab.

and if all that fails...*i will try breeding guppies and convicts *






















[/quote]

hahahahahahaha

But, seriously, I'm hoping this turns out well...I just couldn't turn down the opportunity to show my appreciation for that line!


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## primetime3wise

alright, so here is what i am left with. i did do a good vacuum and even added some fresh water to it, to raise the ph a little. when i start my wet/dry filter again, it will be exposed to the peat and that should lower it again. i will keep it this way for a week to 10 days. i do still have one of my hob going, AC70, because i am worried about keeping the parameters in check. i just might turn it off a few days before i start the rainy season and at night. this has me a little worried about starving them and also i don't know if i have to worry about the tank seal rotting? also, i have to closely monitor the temperature, i did turn one of them off, as well as the tank parameters.

the vid is not the best but will give everyone an idea.

not sure if i am gonna add all the water back at once, or slowly over a few days, any ideas on that?

vid, can someone embed it?


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## primetime3wise

water is at about 40%, maybe a little lower, of full. i figure i'll get some evaporation during the next week or two, depending on how long i take it.


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## primetime3wise

and yet another issue is the water i will use during the rainy season. i may look into getting a RO unit and/or actually using real rain water. looking around too, 10 days seems to be around a minimum for simulating the dry season, and i would think at least that for gonadal maturation to get into high gear.


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## Trigga

Nice man.. How are they reacting when you remove the front cover?

I would embed the vid if I was on my desktop sorry.


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## jmax611

looking good man good luck!!


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## primetime3wise

Trigga said:


> Nice man.. How are they reacting when you remove the front cover?
> 
> I would embed the vid if I was on my desktop sorry.


thanks. they don't go bonkers when i remove the cover, but, they were never that skittish to begin with, just a little, well, at least for piranhas. but me around the tank does def. have an effect on them...they will usually group together if i am near the tank...just not "crashing into the sides" of the tank skittish. i can see how privacy and not being disrupted would help.

gonna keep it this way for at least 10-14 days, possible longer, after i do a little more research and asking around about what would be best. i know that article on opefe, jim smith did it for only 7, but i figure a little longer would be best and could only help.


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## Plowboy

I dont know anything about breeding really, but if your trying to make this as real as possible, wouldn't it be best to add the simulated rain water water when the barometer drops?

Sorry if you brought that up already, I've been reading this as you posted it and might have forgotten seeing it.

GL and thanks for keeping us updated as much as you can.


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## Trigga

primetime3wise said:


> Nice man.. How are they reacting when you remove the front cover?
> 
> I would embed the vid if I was on my desktop sorry.


thanks. they don't go bonkers when i remove the cover, but, they were never that skittish to begin with, just a little, well, at least for piranhas. but me around the tank does def. have an effect on them...they will usually group together if i am near the tank...just not "crashing into the sides" of the tank skittish. i can see how privacy and not being disrupted would help.

gonna keep it this way for at least 10-14 days, possible longer, after i do a little more research and asking around about what would be best. i know that article on opefe, jim smith did it for only 7, but i figure a little longer would be best and could only help.
[/quote]
Just watch for aggression cause they will turn on each other on a dime.

As for the whole refilling thing I think you should just have a bucket of water next to the tank and just add some of it throughout the "rainy season" to try and simulate the non stop rains they go through. Also just letting a bucket of water sit will allow the chlorine and sh*t go dissipate which is what you want.


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## db04ph

nice, good luck


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## cobrafox46




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## primetime3wise

thanks guys for the input. i do realize that i should try and coincide it with a change in the barometer. i also think, yeah, it probably is best to do it over the course of a few days and a little cool water at a time. not sure if that is a huge factor. the largest seems to be how, because they are seasonal breeders, their gonads mature rapidly with the peak of the dry season as they are kind of expecting it to cool down and have the rivers full again when the wet season appears again. not just that, but it also gets into all kinds of changes in their endocrine system and peaks in hormones. so, all that other stuff really helps, but i think the key with them is the change in seasons, it sounds redundant, but again they are seasonal breeding fish.

i could even kinda simulate rainfall in the sense i can let the water from the hob filters glide over my glass covers to kind of mimic rainfall. should be cool, looking at my calendar i think even taking it to next weekend would be good...off from work, so another 11 days or so.

they have really come to a stand still since i took out almost 2/3 of the water. i can monitor them from above and there is almost no movement. i even went as far as to touch one and he didn't react at all. they seem fine though, probably somewhat stressed but that would be expected even in nature.


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## primetime3wise

i will be going the route of using mostly RO water, and maybe just a little old natural rain water, if i can capture some over the course of a few days before i kick start the rainy season. i believe i read they aren't found in blackwater areas, so i will avoid the extract and just use peat, again. gonna take another ph test tomorrow and hopefully it went up a little, then it will go back down to 6 or so when i start the rainy season.

i sincerely appreciate the advice i have gotten from members of this board, as well as researching it online, including using opefe as a starting guide. if there are any factors you guys think i am overlooking please let me know.


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## philbert

lookin good kev. you know they sell RO water by the gal at TFP?


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## primetime3wise

philbert said:


> lookin good kev. you know they sell RO water by the gal at TFP?


thanks.
oh yeah? any idea how much? an issue with that is how much i would need, so buying it per gallon vs. buying my own RO unit.

petco sells similiar, but they want like $6 for two gallons, which is alot for a 125g. i will need close to 75-80g by the time i am done.

rainwater is free







but it might be hard to capture a lot of it unless it really comes down


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## His Majesty

your dry season is looking good









im finding your thread facinating to read through. keep it up


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## primetime3wise

Trigger lover said:


> your dry season is looking good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> im finding your thread facinating to read through. keep it up


thanks. it's easy to post from work... a lot of downtime, haha







if you like this one, you would also like my older threads about breeding macs, if you havn't seen them.

this project though has a lot more variables to consider. with golds/macs, and red bellies, it's like keep tank clean, up the temp, and they will breed.


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## primetime3wise

primetime3wise said:


> lookin good kev. you know they sell RO water by the gal at TFP?


thanks.
oh yeah? any idea how much? an issue with that is how much i would need, so buying it per gallon vs. buying my own RO unit.

petco sells similiar, but they want like $6 for two gallons, which is alot for a 125g. i will need close to 75-80g by the time i am done.

rainwater is free :nod: but it might be hard to capture a lot of it unless it really comes down
[/quote]

actually it's not bad at all, 40 cents per gallon, have to bring your own containers, looks like i will be bringing my two large tubs :nod:


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## philbert

yea i thought it was 50 cents a gallon. 2.00 or a 5 gallon bucket isn't bad.


----------



## bigshawn

Loven this keep the info comeing give me something to shot for


----------



## Us And Them

here is another Variable to consider...

Why not try adding Some Indian Almond Leaves ??? There is alot of beneficial properties pertaining to the leaves including STIMULATING THEM TO MATE.

Apparently , Indian Almond Leaves Filter Your Water , repair Your Fish and Stimulate Spawning..

Some have gone as far as calling it the " Poor Mans Water Conditioner "


----------



## Trigga

Well he has peat running through his filter which basically does the same thing


----------



## Us And Them

Trigga said:


> Well he has peat running through his filter which basically does the same thing


Is peat used to also Stimulate Mating ??


----------



## Trigga

Well it does the same thing as almond leaves(to my knowledge) it lowers the ph and tans the water.


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## philbert

whats happening?


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## primetime3wise

i'll have to look into "indian almond leaves", don't really know much about them, as far as having the same function as peat.

i proabably will just pick up my own RO unit they are not too bad $$$, and i can always use one in the future for all my p tanks...as i said my tap water is hard and alkaline. i do want to get more exact readings of the hardness, though.

if i go that route, and i still have to research this a little more, should i use all RO water? or use mostly RO water with some tap water? i would think at least a little tap water.

the cariba are doing well, today, still almost are at a stand still and don't move, which is fine, the water is holding at about 1/3 full, and the temp @ 84. i might bump it up even another degree or two before i start the rainy season. looking at my funky work schedule, i will do that a week from saturday, so at least a good two weeks+ of the dry season.

other thant that, i still run one of my AC70 hob filters on about 1/2 of the day, and i am using two air pumps, i might do down to one when i can monitor them more, so as to lower the oxygen content a little, if possible.


----------



## philbert

thanks for the update. looks like everything is progessing.


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## primetime3wise

np. 3 of them are considerably darker than the other two. whether that means anything is to be seen...the other two could just be more stressed. i would think they would be darkest just before mating, at the onset of the rainy season. at the same time, i was reading gonadal maturation happens quickly w/in the dry season, so it is def. possible it is something.

other than that, one of the large ones has some moderate heater burn, but that's because they like to hang near the heater where the hob trickles down to. he should be fine though. it's on the dorsal side of his body.

i was also reading that the dry season can be so severe that they can literally look like fish skeletons. so, i would think that not feeding them is not a huge deal. also, they havn't touched many of the feeders that are still in there from a few days ago.

i picked up a RO unit and will use that. still not sure if i should use all RO water and the peat, or at least add some regular tap water. i want to get the hardness of my lake erie water down for sure, as well as PH.


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## bigshawn

Just a suggestion but I would add alittle tap to your ro water...


----------



## philbert

primetime3wise said:


> np. 3 of them are considerably darker than the other two. whether that means anything is to be seen...the other two could just be more stressed. i would think they would be darkest just before mating, at the onset of the rainy season. at the same time, i was reading gonadal maturation happens quickly w/in the dry season, so it is def. possible it is something.
> 
> other than that, one of the large ones has some moderate heater burn, but that's because they like to hang near the heater where the hob trickles down to. he should be fine though. it's on the dorsal side of his body.
> 
> i was also reading that the dry season can be so severe that they can literally look like fish skeletons. so, i would think that not feeding them is not a huge deal. also, they havn't touched many of the feeders that are still in there from a few days ago.
> 
> i picked up a RO unit and will use that. still not sure if i should use all RO water and the peat, or at least add some regular tap water. i want to get the hardness of my lake erie water down for sure, as well as PH.


i was wondering how the feeders were going to go. i never fed them one feeder i know they tagged a couple of danios i couldn't catch out of there but other than the 2 danios never live. how long are you planning on keeping the water level low?


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## primetime3wise

^i think not eating the feeders may have more to do with much room to chase after them and also stress...poor appetite. like i said they are barely moving to begin with. i finally fed my piraya some live rosies, first time for them and they were going crazy getting at them.

water is evaporating and down around 30%, maybe slightly lower. i plan on it until at least next weekend. we are supposed to get warmer weather then too, but more than that i hope we get a day that weekend where it rains for increase in atmospheric/barometric pressure.

they should be fine (knock on wood). like i said, in that article i linked on earlier, it said the dry season is so severe they almost look literally like fish skeletons.

i think right around 2 weeks should be good. some would say take it longer, and some as short as a week, like jim smith did in that opefe article.


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## primetime3wise

whoa just checked on them, 2 are pretty dark, and the other 3 are REALLY dark. hopefully it means something when i go to simulate the rainy/wet season.









other than that they seem fine. still little to no movement inside the tank and the water is around 30% full, little less.


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## primetime3wise

just setup another 75g for fry, HOPEFULLY. cycling with dirty media and some water from my other 3 tanks, along with many rosies. i'm glad i never sold my air pumps and sponge filters from when i bred macs as they are very useful right now.

125g temp is up to 85. i am still not 100% sure how i am going to go about simulating the wet season. i have an RO unit now, along with peat. i may do like 50/50 RO water and regular tap water and also use the peat. am issue is what do i do, if anything with my fry tank's ph and hardness, i could just do the same with it, but slowly let it come back to around the same parameters as my tap water. i would think going from 6.0 or so to 7.5 would be stressful for fry, along with the hardness of just using tap.

i will be simulating the rainy season over the course of 2-3 days, adding a little cool water at a time. with that, again, i am not sure if i should let the temp come back up to 85, or keep it lower since in nature the water would be cooler after the rains. i know that people who have bred reds and macs, myself included, usually let the temp come back up after a large cool water change, but this may be different.

i'm trying to get a hold of alan from the other site, as i think he is the best person to ask these questions to...

i enjoy logging all this, and hopefully i will get some fry and it will help anyone else who wants to do this or similar in the future. obviously i can't say what is ideal, only what i have done and plan to do. so, i hope, if i am successful, it can be a starting point for others, esp. those that may want to try ternetzis and pirayas.


----------



## CLUSTER ONE

primetime3wise said:


> i enjoy logging all this, and hopefully i will get some fry and it will help anyone else who wants to do this or similar in the future. obviously i can't say what is ideal, only what i have done and plan to do. so, i hope, if i am successful, it can be a starting point for others, esp. those that may want to try *ternetzis and pirayas*.


If you an breed caribe too then just skip to geryi. Damn i cant even get my stupid reds to breed.


----------



## Trigga

primetime3wise said:


> whoa just checked on them, 2 are pretty dark, and the other 3 are REALLY dark. hopefully it means something when i go to simulate the rainy/wet season.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> other than that they seem fine. still little to no movement inside the tank and the water is around 30% full, little less.


Nicccce man let's see some pics! Even overhead pics would be sweet


----------



## primetime3wise

sean-820 said:


> i enjoy logging all this, and hopefully i will get some fry and it will help anyone else who wants to do this or similar in the future. obviously i can't say what is ideal, only what i have done and plan to do. so, i hope, if i am successful, it can be a starting point for others, esp. those that may want to try *ternetzis and pirayas*.


If you an breed caribe too then just skip to geryi. Damn i cant even get my stupid reds to breed.
[/quote]

ha, we'll see what happens. i am still not terribly confident just because it hasn't been done much. if i fail i might try again w/ two tanks, like 4 smaller ones in a 75g and obtain 2 more larger ones for the 125g.

geryi, that would be interesting, don't know if it could be done, kinda like piraya in that sense.

trigga, i can try and get a pic or two, but with all the floating plants in there i can barely see them, most of the time only 3 or 4 are in view. at least thought, too, it would give people some idea of what it's like in there.

*If it's darkening related to breeding, it still does not mean success, i have seen people w/ success w/ darkening of cariba and piraya, but no spawns. mostly i am thinking of alan here, i think at least caribe he got to darken, and maybe piraya.


----------



## primetime3wise

here's another great article:

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breedi...%20seasons.html

it gave me some ideas. i am gonna take out all the floating plants and lower my water down to 25% of full, it is about 30% right now. it def. helped with how i should go about doing the rainy season. if they don't spawn this time around i will try again more similar to what this article suggests.

i don't know if i mentioned, but i do also have a timer on the lights for the tank. i have them set for on between 7am-9pm roughly, and will decrease it 2-3 hours during the rainy season. venezuela is close to the equator though, so the amount of difference between night and day isn't that much compared to, say, argentina or alaska.

i'm glad i picked up the RO unit. seems like using something similar to rain water could prove to be important.


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## primetime3wise

actually, that article is REALLY great and i will follow it closely on how it recommends doing the rainy season. it might work to my advantage that i started my simulation of the dry season by raising the tanks temp for several days before i took out most of the water, kind of easing into it.


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## Trigga

That is an unreal article


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## philbert

nice job. i really love how well you log this. i check it when ever i am on pfury its fun to follow along. and if it goes as well as the macs it would be epic.


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## primetime3wise

^np guys. yeah that article is great, it's gonna be very handy when it comes time to simulate the rainy season, next weekend.

i went ahead and removed the floating plants and put the water down to 25% of full, like that article suggests. the only other thing i am looking to possible do is #6:

#6ilution of dissolved substances in the water
Build a higher level of humic substances ( e.g. peat and alder cones) and salts (fertiliser, CaCO3, MgSO4) during the simulated dry season. Later, dilute with as soft water as possible when the rainy season begins (preferably RO water).

MgSO4 is basically epsom salt, i would add a little, but i want to be 100% safe and make sure it's ok. i don't know if aquarium salt is just as good?

as far as adding peat during the dry season for the buildup of humic substances...shows you how little i know, i thought it would be used more during the rainy season. so i will do that as my hob operates at about 25% of max, and i can toss some peat in there, then just use RO water during the rainy w/out peat.

fertilizer, do they mean just plant fertilizer? and i guess for calcium carbonate i could toss is some real rock i have straight from lake erie??

also, my tap water is hard so i won't mess too much w/it, maybe just a little of the above mentioned.

the cariba are doing ok. as i removed the floating plants this morning and lowered the water, they were freaking out, big time. i assume my presence is felt more now w/out all the floating plants i can see where privacy and not being disturbed by blocking all sides of the tank has its advantages.

two now have some pretty good heater burn going on, they like to settle near it. both on their top sides.

i can try and get a pic or two. they are all darker compared to when the tank was full, but i don't know if it is prebreeding or just a darker tank, or stress, or whatever else.


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## Trigga

I'm not sure but I think the rocks would raise your ph.. You can buy calcium supplements.. I would think they would be engineered to not affect your ph

And when the stress out they would get lighter wouldn't they? I think you are doing something right


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## jmax611

heater guards are cheap!


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## primetime3wise

^yeah, i am just gonna leave it this way now till next weekend, and use mostly, if not 100% RO water. and yeah, i am gonna go get some heater guards as well, i just have never had a problem with heater burn before.


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## primetime3wise

Trigga said:


> I'm not sure but I think the rocks would raise your ph.. You can buy calcium supplements.. I would think they would be engineered to not affect your ph
> 
> And when the stress out they would get lighter wouldn't they? I think you are doing something right


yes, true about lightening when being stressed. i was just around the tank adding some lighter gravel and they were getting pretty freaked out, esp. since i took out the floating plants. i was cleaning the lids of the tank also, so i can see better in there, and man they were nervous. like i noted before i can see where complete privacy is an issue with them...though strange rbp don't require it and my cariba are much less skittish and more aggressive than reds i have had.

this will be a good test whether they are darkening because of pre-breeding. i want to be sure it is not my black gravel that was making them dark. i had about 50/50 black gravel, most now is a mix of really light and some brown tones. so basically, if they really darken up again i think it's a real good sign, as most of the lighter gravel is now on the surface/top layer. i did the same thing with my piraya tank and they lightened up big time with more natural looking gravel, but they were 100% black.


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## philbert

i think the privacy thing is important bc they are always hyper aware of ppl. the would often just line up and stare at me sitting on the couch around dinner time which was usually just after sunset. any time i would move they would get excited and come to the surface like i was about to feed them.


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## primetime3wise

i am about to go to the store to pick up a heater guard. now 3 of them have some heater burn going on. i MIGHT even treat the tank with a little melafix. hopefully in 5 or 6 days it will clear up significantly and i will start the rainy season.



philbert said:


> i think the privacy thing is important bc they are always hyper aware of ppl. the would often just line up and stare at me sitting on the couch around dinner time which was usually just after sunset. any time i would move they would get excited and come to the surface like i was about to feed them.


agreed, i always feel like they are watching me, lol, and any subtle movements. even a few times i think they moved from my shadow on the front of the tank, so i may put a black garbage bag or some black cardboard over the front to block out even shadows. it's even more understandable with the water down to about 25%. headed out for a few hours and i am hoping when i come back they are darkened back up.


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## Trigga

if they do darken up again any chance of some overhead pics?


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## primetime3wise

Trigga said:


> if they do darken up again any chance of some overhead pics?


sure np. trying to find a lfs that carries heater guards as the chain pet stores don't have em, at least Petsmart and another don't. i'll take a look at em just before the light goes out @ 9pm, and again in the morning. they are a little darker now than when i was near the tank, but still not as dark as they were prior. also, adding gravel could have messed with them so it's hard to say now.


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## Trigga

Big als online has em


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## primetime3wise

actually, lady at a lfs suggested pvc pipe, i have some and it sounds like a decent idea. if the piece i have isn't suitable i may go to home depot. i just don't know if it there would be enough water circulation through it.


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## primetime3wise

will probably try a small piece of pvc with a piece of driftwood, i'll just have to make sure there is enough circulation, i may put my air stone directly in there as well.

anyway, yeah if the darken up before 9pm i will post pics, otherwise, hopefully in the morning after they settle more.

cheers to hoping it rains this weekend...


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## primetime3wise

added just a little of my floating plants on the side away from the heater and they like to congregate there, they really relax more with the floating plants in there and darkened up almost immediately.









this pic will kind of give you an idea, not the best, i may even try and get one from the side.

you can see some of the heater burn, i went ahead and covered the heater with a piece of decor i have and a piece of driftwood. i just hope the circulation in the tank is enough to keep it this warm, around 84-85 right now. i am hoping also it mostly heals by this weekend, i did use some melafix.


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## Trigga

Damn that's some Nasty heater burn...

Is that the darkest they have Been?


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## primetime3wise

^pretty much, maybe slightly darker. do you think it means anything? def. a few shades darker than my piraya. here's another, they were much lighter than when i started all this, so i dunno, hopefully it means something. i would guess they would be darkest at the beginning or onset of the rainy season.

yeah the heater burn is nasty on 2 of them and slight on another. hopefully 5 or 6 good days of the temp up, melafix, and a little salt helps. plus we all know how fast piranhas can heal.


----------



## primetime3wise

after looking at various pics of reds near breeding, it's hard to say. some mine are as dark as, and some are darker than mine. they aren't as dark as the pic of a caribe on opefe. i'll take some more on friday, as i plan to start the rainy season on saturday. i am gonna do my best to avoid disrupting them as much as possible over the next few days. i really was around the tank too much today, and they only really settled in once i added a little of the floating plants back.


----------



## primetime3wise

looking at my feeding vid and the setup prior to starting, they are certainly noticeably darker. i guess we'll just see what happens when i simulate the rains over 2-3 days. that pic on opefe is crazy, and the fish looks black. i wonder if that is normal that they get that dark.


----------



## Trigga

Yeah they look alot darker in the 2nd pic.. I can't wait to see how they act when you start the rainy season. I think your close man.. Keep it up you are setting a precedent for a full step by step detailed documentation breeding of cariba and I am pumped to see this and hope you are successful man









you may have posted this but what are they being fed during the dry season? Are you feeding them at all?


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## primetime3wise

i've fed barely at all since i lowered the water, actually none other than the rosies/feeders i tossed in there one day.

i hope i'm close, i think having the right fish and some luck wouldn't hurt. should be real interesting to see what happens when i toss in some cool RO water.


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## philbert

damn they look pretty dark. darker than i've ever seen them.


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## primetime3wise

not much happening today. just hoping those heater burns heal up some, before the rainy season starts this coming weekend.


----------



## THE BLACK PIRANHA

primetime3wise said:


> not much happening today. just hoping those heater burns heal up some, before the rainy season starts this coming weekend.


They may be scared for life, heater burns can be really nasty. They may heal but you will most likely see scaring.


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## primetime3wise

yeah, i know that. just hoping they heal some before the weekend. may even take it a day or two longer if i think it will help some. could be worse w/ piranhas, as we all know. they seem to be doing well though even w/ it, it's good p's are hardy (albeit shy) fish.

i NEVER had problems with heater burn before in 6+ years of keeping piranhas. hard to understand why they would settle on the heater if it was burning through their skin, just must be a lack of strong nerves around the area it occurs.


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## Trigga

Fish don't feel pain


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## primetime3wise

^some studies show they do, though i bet it is vastly different than what me might experience.

irregardless, my p's knocked over and off the decor and driftwood i put on top of the plant, trying to furiously get into the little crevice it created. now a 3rd has some good heater burn going on. i have to find another alternative and am thinking smaller pieces of pvc will work best.


----------



## THE BLACK PIRANHA

Large holes in the pvc should work good.


----------



## philbert

primetime3wise said:


> ^some studies show they do, though i bet it is vastly different than what me might experience.
> 
> irregardless, my p's knocked over and off the decor and driftwood i put on top of the plant, trying to furiously get into the little crevice it created. now a 3rd has some good heater burn going on. i have to find another alternative and am thinking smaller pieces of pvc will work best.


i would just get some 2 - 3 in pvc drill some holes to allow good flow around itand call it a day. or you could get a plastic stealth heater.


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## primetime3wise

philbert said:


> ^some studies show they do, though i bet it is vastly different than what me might experience.
> 
> irregardless, my p's knocked over and off the decor and driftwood i put on top of the plant, trying to furiously get into the little crevice it created. now a 3rd has some good heater burn going on. i have to find another alternative and am thinking smaller pieces of pvc will work best.


i would just get some 2 - 3 in pvc drill some holes to allow good flow around itand call it a day. or you could get a plastic stealth heater.
[/quote]

yeah, thanks guys, that is what i am going to do. i already have 2 large pieces of pvc, but they may be a little too large and i don't want them trying to squeeze into them. gonna stop at home dept after work and see if i can get some smaller pieces and drill some holes in there. also because circulation is not at as great i am covering more of the tank and keeping windows closed to keep the temp up and heat in. it's fine now, the temp is steady @ 85.


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## bigshawn

Unreal info, keep it comeing I love this and my get it a try someday!

Thank you!!!


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## philbert

i would probably use 3 in pvc and dirll 3/4in wholes in the pvc. then stick the pvc into the gravel so there isn't anywhere for them to try and sqeeze into. also in a pinch i used the quick filter attachement to my AC power heads over the heater.


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## primetime3wise

^actually that's a really good idea, as far as sticking it in the gravel as to narrow the diameter of the narrowing, cuz' as it is now, i can see them at least trying to squeeze into it...and i think what i already have is about 3", maybe slightly more, in diameter.

it's great that a lot of people are chiming in with encouragement and advice. hopefully we are covering most of the bases and will be successful, then this thread could be very helpful for people trying to not only breed cariba, but terns, and maybe even piraya and some serras. and if it gets others more interested to try something like this, that's great as well.


----------



## philbert

yea i think that its important to do it this way bc obv they just don't naturally spawn since nobody's have just spawned out of the blue. so there has to be a trigger. digging the guard into the gravel just seems like it would be easier than trying to figure a way to mount it with the heater


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## primetime3wise

sounds good. when i get home i am also going to not use the hob filter for the last few days here, and toss them on my piraya tank to keep them cycled. also, i have two air stones going and am going to take one out, so only one remains on in the tank. a day or two before i start the rainy season, when i am home and around the tank, i may even turn the air pump on/off for a few hours to reduce aeration and available oxygen in the tank. i will only do it though when i am around because w/ this the fish will have to be monitored. or i might switch to an air pump with less output and use a smaller airstone.

i don't know if i mentioned, but i tossed some plant fertilizer in the tank, as well, as the article i linked suggests. also have been treating w/melafix and some salt over last two days.

other than that, for the last few days here, i want to disrupt them or look in the tank, even, as little as possible. i am stopping even adding anything to the tank, even more melafix to try and keep the water's chemistry more stable.


----------



## the_w8

good luck prime...Sounds like ur on ur way to hopefully acheiving the unthinkable. Great article too!


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## primetime3wise

^thanks.

i am planning on starting the rainy season tomorrow, saturday, *IF* my parameters are still in check (or slightly elevated). i did have slight ammonia a few days ago, but i doubt it has really gone up any, probably back to 0 if anything. i did a few things to reduce the slight amount in the water, and have not been feeding the fish. i will check them again when i get home from work.

the cariba are doing fine. 3 are darker than the other two, which is also ok. i also want to start this ASAP because another has a large wound on its body, not from heater burn or a bite, but from scraping itself good on something...either driftwood or more probable the hob filter's intake when it was attached. it's quite a sizable wound, about 4-5" long and about 1/2" wide, though not very deep. they have settled down much better though, recently, but were really getting wound up if i peaked in the tank, and when the light would come on in the morning...which explains how they could scrape themselves. once they "flipped out" so much they woke me up in the morning, so i can see how they can hurt themselves in such shallow water.

i am planning on doing the rainy season over the course of 3 days, as the last article i linked, suggests...adding roughly 30g (or 25% of the tank's total volume) each day. the first day i may add a little more...using RO water about 6-8 degrees cooler than that of the tank and dropping the tank's temp about 2-3 degrees each day until it comes right around 76-78 or so. it is 85 as we speak and has been that way pretty much since oct 5th, with reduced water levels since oct 12th (roughly).

other than that, the light i have on the tank will be dimmed and the length of the amount of light will be shortened a few hours. i'll also add back in all the floating plants, as they really like the cover those give them. right now, they settle all the time under the few floating plants i have in there now.

wish me luck. honestly i am not terribly confident that this is going to succeed just because this has not been done much before and because some of the fish are not as dark as they were. the wounds on some of the fish is a little discouraging, but i guess i see how it happens more in such shallow waters. i hope it doesn't weaken them and if i had a "do over" it would be that.

we'll see what happens, i will post on the weekend about what is going on with them.


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## philbert

great updated. honestly i think that some damage is probably unavoidable. also i would think that if this doesn't work it wouldn't take long for them to bounce back and to try again. who knows maybe you'll get lucky


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## primetime3wise

philbert said:


> great updated. honestly i think that some damage is probably unavoidable. also i would think that if this doesn't work it wouldn't take long for them to bounce back and to try again. who knows maybe you'll get lucky


i think your right in the sense it is almost unavoidable because of how skittish and jumpy they get in such a small volume of water. if i don't succeed at least i learned a few things, and, i may even keep the tank bare except for some floating plants, not even a hob filter running because i think he injured himself on it, or possible the edges of some driftwood.


----------



## THE BLACK PIRANHA

Did you ever think of adding some peat to the water,make the water darker so less shock when the light comes on and it will soften the water and lower the ph. Just a thought.


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## primetime3wise

i was using peat for a while to bring down the ph, but stopped. it actually did reduce my ph to below 6. that article i linked suggests using it during the DRY season, which suprised me because of it being a humic substance, that is, found in the soil and in greater concentration during the dry season. it wasn't darkening my water though. i would have originally thought to use it during the rainy season.

i do have some blackwater extract and might use a little in addition to my RO water, or just RO water alone with much dimmer lights. in the other article i linked, though, said caribe are NOT found in black water areas. the darkening of the tank could be advantageous.

basically using peat is one thing i am a little confused on. i don't think it's needed though w/ RO water.


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## primetime3wise

the last thing i should mention is the use of a powerhead during the rainy season. i am going to use one with moderate flow. when the rivers in the amazon enter the rainy season, the flow of the waters increase as well. so, i will be using one, but want to keep it near the top of the tank, away from any potential eggs.


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## philbert

i think the powerhead idea is a good one. also if it doesn't work this time you can make sure you have heater guards in place next time and that will also limit the damage that could occure.


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## primetime3wise

^a powerhead certainly can't hurt, only increase the odds of breeding, i would think, as it simulates natural water flow. again, keeping it near the top though and away from any potential eggs.


----------



## philbert

primetime3wise said:


> ^a powerhead certainly can't hurt, only increase the odds of breeding, i would think, as it simulates natural water flow. again, keeping it near the top though and away from any potential eggs.


yea keeping it high would probably be best, tho they lay the eggs in current in the wild.


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## alexandar75

I am impressed with this topic because I have made great efforts to spawning rbps!! This issue gave me a lot of good ideas but still think that I will not succeed without ro devices. Many regards from Belgrade, Serbia. I am following this topic I have classified under the label "mandatory"


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## primetime3wise

alexandar75 said:


> I am impressed with this topic because I have made great efforts to spawning rbps!! This issue gave me a lot of good ideas but still think that I will not succeed without ro devices. Many regards from Belgrade, Serbia. I am following this topic I have classified under the label "mandatory"


that's cool, i'm glad you are following this thread and i do hope it gives you some ideas. with red bellies, and gold piranhas (s. maculatus) i think it is mostly an issue of having the right fish, and keeping the tank clean and cycled. after that, you can try some large water changes with cooler water to stimulate them, then it's a matter of time...again if you have the right fish that like the conditions and want to spawn. then, if you are still having problems you can try some of the ideas presented in this thread. g/l to you. patience is key.


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## Trigga

How's the weather looking this weekend? Are you gonna add water regardless?


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## philbert

is it raining?


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## primetime3wise

it's not raining, it is overcast though, very cloudy. it's not supposed to rain till mid week, unfortunately. i am gonna start adding R/O water in just a little bit, have around 25g of it now. i am gonna add it over the course of the next few hours, and by the time i am done today, add around 40g of it.


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## primetime3wise

i added about 30g of RO water, started the two hob filters back up (AC70's), and added some peat and even a little black water extract to dim the tank. i also dimmed the lights w/ electrical tape and i would estimate they are at about 50%, maybe less, of max. tank is about 60% of full, now, and i may add a little more RO water w/in a few hours. tank temp is down to about 81 or so.

before i dimmed the lights, i could still see well in the tank and two of them were VERY dark, not black dark, but noticeably darker than before, and noticeably darker than the other three, who were darker like before in the pics. i HOPE it means something


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## Guest

Keeping my fingers crossed for ya


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## alexandar75

primetime3wise said:


> i HOPE it means something


I hope too, my friend


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## Trigga

Awesssome.. I would ask for pics but I wouldn't want to disturb them

were rooting for you man


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## primetime3wise

thanks everyone for the kind words and support. i am gonna add about another 15g more of water, w/ about 5g being regular tap water for some good minerals.

i added about 15 med. sized gold fish and a few rosies. i'm not making a habit out of it and is only to stimulate them more. also, with the tank fully covered, even the tops, it would be hard to find uneaten food. i also added a cheap little vitamin and mineral dissolving pyramid, figuring that because RO is stripped of even good minerals. using RO water, solely, is probably only good in the short run.

it actually did rain a little, a little drizzle, but, that's far better than nothing. today is as good a day as any.

that's about it for now. i am gonna leave them be until 8pm or so and take a quick peak in the tank. if i can get any pics i will take some. the tank is pretty dim now so it might not work out too well.


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## primetime3wise

tank is about 75% full right now. i am shortening the length of when the lighting is on by a few hours.

other than that, i am going to fill it up 100% in the morning. i want to get an earlier start than i did today, so they can acclimate quicker and, also, for the fact p's tend to breed in the late afternoon to early evening.

i might take another quick peak around 8pm, to see what they look like. after that, i am not going to look in the tank until late tomorrow, 8pm or so. i've even been adding water via the pump on my wet/dry so as not to disturb them.


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## philbert

haha when i asked if its raining i didn't mean in real life. i meant did you start adding water. keepin my fingers crosed.


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## primetime3wise

^ oh, haha









tank is about 95% full right now, just waiting for the last of my RO water to be ready.

the largest issue i am having is to what keep the tank's temp at. in that opefe article it says they bred at around 82, i believe. at the same time the article i linked on simulating the seasons says to bring the temp way down, below 74-76, even. p's have bred for me in the past at higher temps, so i *think* i am gonna go with that. gonna research that a little further. if anyone has an opinion and why let me know...


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## Trigga

I would do what it says on opefe since that is specific to caribe while that other article is not area specific.


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## primetime3wise

after i added the last of the RO water temp go knocked down to about 77. unfortuntely it was from 82-83 and it must of stressed them because they have lightened up a little







i also have been around the tank, making adjustments, so i am sure nothing will happen today, at least. with all that water in there too, they need some time to adjust. gonna try my best to not disturb them at all. may take a quick peak later tonight before the lights go out at 8pm. otherwise, tomorrow night. other than that, i added more goldfish as feeders. look for a report tomorrow, then, unless something drastic happens...

oh, and i am letting the temp come back up to 84-85. i decided that because of the opefe article and my own experience breeding piranhas, that they tend to in warmer water.


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## His Majesty

sorry to hear about the water temp being knocked down. lets face it no one likes to make babies when its cold.

keep up the good work though. i really really hope they breed for you.
and thanks again for posting a step by step progress on it. i enjoy reading along. very informative and interesting


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## primetime3wise

^thanks and np.

tank temp is holding now at about 84. i took a quick peak and two are darker than the other 3, but nothing as far as looking like they want to breed yet.

i am just gonna leave it this way until next weekend, disrupting them only to feed them, and hope that affording them as much privacy as possible helps to induce them.

i can see where they need some time to acclimate from little water in the tank to full, so i am not going to chalk this up as failing, yet. also, when i bred macs it took about 3 days after i made changes to the tank for them to breed.

we'll see what happens, i will report back in a few days...


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## primetime3wise

thinking ahead, if i don't see any spawning behavior, i might turn the tank lights off on wed or thurs, and just use the room lights. also, if i don't see anything over the weekend, i may try lowering the tank's temp, after a water change, to a more avg temp of 78, and see if that does anything.

yes, the artcile on opefe says they spawned at 84 degrees. however, according to the scientific article i linked, it looked like in nature that they were spawning in much cooler water with the onset of the rainy season. if interested, take a look at this article, specifically the chart/graph FIG.1, that shows that they tend to breed in cooler water in nature, 26 celsius, specifically or 78 fahrenheit.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g5l314...6/fulltext.html

looks like during the dry season, as well, temp of the water even increased to around 87 or so. so that might be worth looking into down the road. maybe increasing the tank's temp even more, then dropping it to a more normal temp over the course of a few days. i'm getting ahead of myself a little, but it's worth looking into down the road if i don't see any spawning behavior.


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## philbert

anything happening?


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## primetime3wise

took a quick peak and couldn't see anything happening, but it was really quick because even through the thick floating plants they notice me looking through the top. gonna make small holes on the side to peak in and completely cover the top, as well. i really only saw 2 of them and they weren't dark or anything, not like when i took those pics during the dry season. i also am gonna really only look late evening, before the lights go out, to see if anything develops.

leaving the tank's temp at around 84. i will try another RO water change this weekend, dropping the tank's temp a little and letting it raise back up. then again a few days later, but then keeping the tank's temp lower, to around an avg. 78

i highly doubt anything will happen, now, but we'll see...


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## alexandar75

Continue to track mate ... I wish you all happiness of this world in your attempts


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## ismheg

man this is going great so far, just post some pics whats happening?


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## primetime3wise

ismheg said:


> man this is going great so far, just post some pics whats happening?


unfortunately, not much is happening. they are still about as light as they were before i started all of this, that is, not much darkening, indicating breeding behavior. they were at their darkest when i started the dry season. as i noted, i am gonna try a few large water changes with cooler RO water and see if that does anything, but really, i am highly doubtful at this point.

if and when i try this again, because of when they were darkest, i may extend the dry season to like a full 3 weeks, that means including the lower water levels and higher temps.

one thing i would change for sure is to keep the tank mostly bare, and get some heater guards. these caribe now have some really sizable wounds on their bodes from scraping against driftwood and heater burn, both from when the water levels were really low.

i will also be looking to obtain a few other larger ones and/or ternetzis. would be interesting to compare the two and try both.

not really going to take any pics for now, as i noted i don't want to disturb them. plus, there really isn'y much to see. i wil take pics afterwards to show the wounds they have obtained. from what happened to them during the dry season, i would strongly suggest anyone else who tries this to use a mostly bare tank.


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## philbert

you went further than most


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## Piro

primetime3wise said:


> man this is going great so far, just post some pics whats happening?


unfortunately, not much is happening. they are still about as light as they were before i started all of this, that is, not much darkening, indicating breeding behavior. they were at their darkest when i started the dry season. as i noted, i am gonna try a few large water changes with cooler RO water and see if that does anything, but really, i am highly doubtful at this point.

if and when i try this again, because of when they were darkest, i may extend the dry season to like a full 3 weeks, that means including the lower water levels and higher temps.

one thing i would change for sure is to keep the tank mostly bare, and get some heater guards. these caribe now have some really sizable wounds on their bodes from scraping against driftwood and heater burn, both from when the water levels were really low.

i will also be looking to obtain a few other larger ones and/or ternetzis. would be interesting to compare the two and try both.

not really going to take any pics for now, as i noted i don't want to disturb them. plus, there really isn'y much to see. i wil take pics afterwards to show the wounds they have obtained. from what happened to them during the dry season, i would strongly suggest anyone else who tries this to use a mostly bare tank.
[/quote]

I don't think it's wise to mix species when you're trying to breed. It's a shame it didn't work out well now. I've heard some low vegetation/plants in the tank may also help aswell as keeping live feeders all the time in the tank. Size of your P's may also take a part in breeding. good luck!


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## piranha6969

I actually have a video of my Red p's doing the booty dance. I am having trouble uploading it.
This was the third time for me. The fry always die on me after the first week. Be patient. they seem to do it only when they want to. i had them breed doing the rainy /dry seasons, and after that even when doing small 15 to 20% water changes they have breed. Good luck - your on the right track.


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## primetime3wise

Piro said:


> I actually have a video of my Red p's doing the booty dance. I am having trouble uploading it.
> This was the third time for me. The fry always die on me after the first week. Be patient. they seem to do it only when they want to. i had them breed doing the rainy /dry seasons, and after that even when doing small 15 to 20% water changes they have breed. Good luck - your on the right track.


i bred reds as well. they and macs (gold piranhas) don't need anything real special to breed, if they like the water and conditions, they eventually will, and a large water change and higher temp can usually help.


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## primetime3wise

did a large water change with cooler RO water this morning, and the temp is almost back up to 84, but really nothing different, no darkening or any behavior that might indicate breeding


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## the_w8

be patient bro and keep up the great work. Love the dedication.


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## Trigga

I think that the initial drop in temp when you started the rainy season may have turned them off breeding.. It dropped to like 77 right?

Sorry to hear nothings happening, I hope it doesn't deter you though and you give it another shot.


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## primetime3wise

thanks guys. yeah i will probably try again in a month or two, i would really like to pick up another 1 or even better 2, of breeding size/age. i have 5, but i don't think i can count on the smallest one to breed as he gets picked on the most. so like 6 good ones in my 125g is what i would want.


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## primetime3wise

well, this is exciting. i have one, that is the most aggressive and dominant in the tank, showing breeding colors. he also has the best spot in the tank, and where i feed them..in the middle. i took the cover off a few days ago, and noticed he was a little darker than the others. but, just w/in the last few hours he has darkened considerably. so much so, and much darker than the rest, that i can only assume it means he/she is looking to breed. unfortunately, this one doesn't have a partner, though. that is, no one else is even close to this dark. a remote possibility might be a smaller one that hangs out near the top of the tank above the darkened one. however, it has not darkened. as some of you know, often the female will hand around the male (or maybe the opposite w/ this species), and then they eventually go at it.

here's a pic. you can see the difference in colors, but in person it is even more pronounced. the other one, up top, is pictured as well. you can also see, unfortunately, the wounds, mostly heater burn, this particular caribe suffered during my dry season. they are healing up nicely though, but i think scar tissure will still be visable.

not 100% sure what i am gonna do. i will probably do a nice water change on sunday, and toss the cover back on to give them privacy, then just hope they respond. there are two others that are a little darker than the remaining two, but as i keep saying, none as much as the one pictured.


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## Trigga

That's awesome Hopefully he can entice one of the others to do the same

is the lighting dimmed? If not I would dim them or add some floating plant cover or something.


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## philbert

wow that one is definetly dark.


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## primetime3wise

Trigga said:


> That's awesome Hopefully he can entice one of the others to do the same
> 
> is the lighting dimmed? If not I would dim them or add some floating plant cover or something.


it's pretty cool. it's even more noticeable in person. i might just do those two things because i do have some extra floating plants i took out, and also i put the lighting back at max. also after a water change i may put the covering back on to give them privacy. i did turn the temp back up to around 84, from around 82. i say "around" because i have 3 thermometers on there, same type, and all 3 say different things, arghhh...annoying. they def. like to set up under floating plants.

they were lighter earlier this morning, before i left for work. that is probably to be expected first thing in the morning. i work all afternoon so it will be interesting to see if anything changes since they will be alone all day.


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## Winkyee

What about using an inline heater?
Are you running canister(s) on that tank?
I'd use some pvc piping and run some temp lines to get water where you want it and use an inline to prevent heater burns.


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## primetime3wise

Winkyee said:


> What about using an inline heater?
> Are you running canister(s) on that tank?
> I'd use some pvc piping and run some temp lines to get water where you want it and use an inline to prevent heater burns.


no canisters on that tank, though i do have a nice one laying around. i do have a large wet/dry on the tank, so i could put the heater(s) in there. more than anything, lol, i need a thermometer that is actually reliable and accurate. i will also say that having to adjust two heaters is a pain in the arse. i have a 400w and 300w, set at 79 each and the water temp is closer to 82-83...well at least i think around there.


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## primetime3wise

considering one is REALLY dark, and two others kind of, i am thinking that more than anything privacy and not being disturbed could be the key. if one likes the conditions so much, i would hope the other ones would as well. plus, well, even though these guys aren't terribly skittish, we all know how aware of your presence, piranhas can be...reacting to subtle movements.


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## primetime3wise

i think these fish like messing with me







, unfortunately everyone is back to being light (silver-grey)







that one was really dark, two others fairly dark, now all are back to "normal".


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