# substrate



## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

i am starting a sw tank soon and was wondering wat substrate would be nice and easy to clean because from wat ive read crushed coral can be a hassle for beginners? o and i dont want to go BB but i will if i have to


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## RB 32 (Mar 2, 2005)

I like live sand...


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

so, you finally going salt huh well good choice.

as far as substrate you could always go with a b for the beginning and then add in the future, but you wouldn't be able to get a scooter blenny or any little creature that needs sand I believe.

if you do go with substrate I'd start out with live sand, and it'll look great for about a month, but when your tank starts to cycle its gona look like crap, but iyou get enough conchs and hermits and blennys, and a lawn mower blenny you'll be good.

what knda stock are you gonna go with?

in my opinion I'd go wth the substrate if I was you, but when you do tink ahead and make sure the color of you substate is gona be wht you want for the long hall and you'll be o once your tank gets up and cycling


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## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

i was thinking of keeping it basic for a while maybe cool looking snail, shrimp and maybe a cheap fish or 2 ,, and can i use play sand liek in a freshwater aquarium and add live rock instead of live sand


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## Guest (May 29, 2006)

The best possible stuff is the stuff at the bottom of Live Rock vats at your LFS. But that junk is ugly. Go with a simple 1'' of white sand. Anything more, and you will run into problems (unless you go with a full blown DSB).

Sand sifting cratures are very interesting, I would reccomend not goin BB unless you are keeing SPS.


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

what ever sand you use make sure it says suitable for fresh and salt, don't ever use ANY thing that just says fresh in a salt tank, as far as anything like filtration, substrate, chemicals etc.

Just always make sure you check and see what the specifications of the product is as far as salt or freshwater, and you'll be good.


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## jasert39 (May 1, 2003)

your local fish store should sell sand that is meant to be used for saltwater. This sand has mineral and things that are beneficial and also helps balance pH where it should be for sw.

some examples.


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

what size tank again?

update please!


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## Guest (May 29, 2006)

Trillion said:


> what ever sand you use make sure it says suitable for fresh and salt, don't ever use ANY thing that just says fresh in a salt tank, as far as anything like filtration, substrate, chemicals etc.
> 
> Just always make sure you check and see what the specifications of the product is as far as salt or freshwater, and you'll be good.


:laugh: Stuck out on that one Trillion. There are no freshwater only substares, the closest thing would be rift lake, but even that would be nearly perfect for a salt habitat. Or say Flourish, but it says right on the bag "PLANTED AQUARIUMS"...and to be honest, if you rinse it a couple of times, it is no different from other substrates.


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## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

i havent yet decided on teh size of the tank i am trying to sell my 40 and buy an acrylic tank what size do you guys suggest for a beginner?


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## rbp 4 135 (Mar 2, 2004)

crushed argonite is best imo because it has a good grainsize, and has buffering capacities. imo bb is easiest though.


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## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

thank you im debating whether to go bb or not but another question is what is a good size starter sw aquarium
?


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## illnino (Mar 6, 2004)

a 29g is a good starter size. you can have a couple or three fish. everything wont be too expensive. look into a faux sandbed. basically take epoxy mixed with sand and let it dry on the bottom of the tank. looks like a sandbed but it is just a rock basically.


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## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

ive decided to go with a substrate that is about 1 inch deep but i still havent decided what, i want something very light because it think that looks nice, like in this picture


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## Guest (May 30, 2006)

I would go with a minimum 55g tank if it is your first


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## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

thank you dannyboy i will , i will probably be going up to big als oalville soon becasue i hear they have a good selection and i will buy a 55 with a protein skimmer, which do u suggest? and as for filtration would a couple powerheads and a wet/dry do?


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## Fish Finder (Mar 25, 2005)

just rember don't turn on the skimmer untill the tank is cycled. If you do you will interup the cycle process


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## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

ok thank you i did not know that


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> i havent yet decided on teh size of the tank i am trying to sell my 40 and buy an acrylic tank what size do you guys suggest for a beginner?


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## Guest (May 31, 2006)

Trillion said:


> i havent yet decided on teh size of the tank i am trying to sell my 40 and buy an acrylic tank what size do you guys suggest for a beginner?


:laugh:


















[/quote]

Good, I hope you are reading every piece of advice this board gives, hopefully it will help you with you future replies to others topics


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## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

yes i am, i am going to ask alot of questions and do alot of research before i add water to the tank btu i will most liekly start purchasing things in the next week or 2 when i get up to big als


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

big als

lol, the first things you wanna get for your tank is some good ro/di water, a sump(perferably diy if you can and over sized the more water that your sump can hold the more room for human error), lighting power compacts, vhos , t5s or halides, are a must, but if you wanna start out cheap on the lights and your not gonna get into hard corals, reg flouresents will do that say for salt water tanks on the packaging.

there are other forms of filtration you can go with such as bio wheels at the beginning and ater on when your ak mtures yu can take the wheel off, cause I can raise nitrates considerably, and if you know how to you can also put a refugium in your sump if you take that road, and thats lke the ideal sw filtration set up.


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## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

what do i need and how do is et up a sump?


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

bufu11 said:


> what do i need and how do is et up a sump?


well to start out with you need the sump of course, which is the container your water and return pump (under water), and heater will go into.

the sump that you purchase should come with bio balls which contributes to a lot of the bacteria, good bacteri build up that your sw tank needs.

you do a over flow box, which will actually hang over the back of your tank( if you don't have a drilled tank).this allows you to have water in your tank tranferred from our tank to the sump, and depending on the size of your tank it is up to you to decide what size over flow you need and what size return pump to go with.

you want the same amount coming to your sump as going in your tank, so water levels stay where you want them.

for an example, on my 40 gl. I want and need a 900 gph overflow matched with a 900 gph return pump. see what I mean.

in the sump you can hide a lot of equipment that you would usually put in the actual tank.

if you sump is big enough you can add a refugium, all you need to do this is to separate a section in your sump, add light, macro algae, and a little tlc.

jasert has a good link on how to make one.

hope this helps


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## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

instead of the sump could i run 2 or more powerheads, skimmer, canister filter and some live rock


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

bufu11 said:


> instead of the sump could i run 2 or more powerheads, skimmer, canister filter and some live rock


yes all those would be fine, you can even add live rock in your canister filter but I would use a anti ammonia based media and carbon to prevent odors, and discoloration.

canister filters are a lot more maintance and you have to clean them a lot more often, to where as having a sump you just have to change the media and that's it.

the choice s youurs though.

remember the more current you create in your tank the better.

if you can find a way to turn every gl. of your tank over every hour, you would have a very well established fitration system.

in order to do that though you may have to go with bigger filters than for your size tank.

that's what I did for my 40 gallon.

I have like 200 gls of filtration on it.

and on my 75 I have about 180 gls of filtrration


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## jasert39 (May 1, 2003)

are you going to have a reef or fish only tank...trillion is correct the more water movement the better...im close to 750 gph in my 40 and adding another maxijet shortly.


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## Fish Finder (Mar 25, 2005)

bufu11 said:


> instead of the sump could i run 2 or more powerheads, skimmer, canister filter and some live rock


You are right you can do that insted of a sump. On my 150G i run a xp3 and xp2. Trillion you are wrong when saying that there lot more maintance. I have had both and the canaster filter is just as simple and cleaner then a sump. Also if you have to much watter current in your tank you will stress the fish to death. To much watter curent is bad.


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

Fish Finder said:


> instead of the sump could i run 2 or more powerheads, skimmer, canister filter and some live rock


You are right you can do that insted of a sump. On my 150G i run a xp3 and xp2. Trillion you are wrong when saying that there lot more maintance. I have had both and the canaster filter is just as simple and cleaner then a sump. Also if you have to much watter current in your tank you will stress the fish to death. To much watter curent is bad.
[/quote]

ok I guess I should have made myself a lot more clear, I was talking about water movement in the actual tank such as power heads.

maybe one on top on one side, and one in the middle on the other side with a rotating head. that is a form of water movement and filtrtion.

as far as canister filters I never had one I just herd bad things about them and in MY opinion a sump does have more advantages than dis advntages, but if he did go with a canister he also woulnt have to go with a over flow or a return pump.

on the down side he would have to go with putttig equipment in the tank instead of the sump, and while I'm sure he's not to worried about that now he may be when his live rock quantity starts to build up.

you are right though may be wrong in my opinion, but as far as the canister goes its a majority of what I herd, and I would think you would have to tear that thing down and clean it throughly.

have you had a canister filter on a sw tank?


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## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

lol thanks for the input, how do i know when i have "too much current"?


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## Fish Finder (Mar 25, 2005)

Trillion said:


> lol thanks for the input, how do i know when i have "too much current"?


Discoloration, lack of swimming, not eating are the 3 main one's that can be a resalt of to much curent.


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

when water is falling over the side of your tank. lol

if your fish are constantly having to swim against the current then you got to much.

a p head on the top and in the middle should be fine, or two set on the back of the glase pointed towards the front of the tank aimed at different spots at the middle of the tank.


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## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

i am going tomorrow to pick up the tank and the salt and i was wondering, i got a small amount of live sand and can i use play sand lik ein my fw tanks and seed it with the live sand, and i mite get a 29 or 40 instead of 55 im still debating lol


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

I believe that sanny boy told you that you could use fw sand, and I don't think you really need to seed your sand with live sand.

it will help your tank cycle faster if your anxious to throw fish in. theres no need to be in a rush, your tank is only gonna cycle as fast as it wants to.

I just used reg plan sand in mine dumped in the salt let it mix for like 24 hrs, and I threw damsels in the next day.

All of them would steal be alive today to if one of the mean fuckers didn't establish dominance, and kill the other ones, or it may have been cause I really messed up on my 1st water change.

6ou really don't need live sand to start reg sw or as danny said fw salt will work, plus live sand is expensive, but if you do go that route look at the date on the live sand, cause it does expire.

the choice is yours to make but yes to your ? though


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## Genin (Feb 4, 2003)

i seeded with live sand before. all you need to do is add about a cup full of live sand to your new sand and it will seed it rather quick. that will help the whole cycling process.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2006)

I think I gave ya about a cup full mate. That water should help too. Best of luck.


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## jiggy (Jun 27, 2004)

barebottom for life


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

not trying o start nothing, but I thought for sure that some one was gonna say somehing was wrong with my advice.

this much mean I'm learning









yyyeeeesssssss.

its about time huh?


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2006)

jiggy, the materialism in your sig makes me sick


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

DannyBoy17 said:


> jiggy, the materialism in your sig makes me sick












how come they let his be so large?

dr. zoidberg said mine was to big.

he must pull major weight around here.

UPDATE! bufu UPDATE!


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## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

lol to update i am on my way to the pet stor right now to pick up the salt and the tank so i will tell u guys how it goes and i am using play sand seeded with the livesand i got from dannyboy


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## bufu11 (Feb 2, 2006)

picked up a 40 gallon and 150 gallons of salt but i am on my way to driving school so i will update later


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## jiggy (Jun 27, 2004)

*


Trillion said:



instead of the sump could i run 2 or more powerheads, skimmer, canister filter and some live rock

Click to expand...

yes all those would be fine, you can even add live rock in your canister filter but I would use a anti ammonia based media and carbon to prevent odors, and discoloration.

canister filters are a lot more maintance and you have to clean them a lot more often, to where as having a sump you just have to change the media and that's it.

the choice s youurs though.

remember the more current you create in your tank the better.

if you can find a way to turn every gl. of your tank over every hour, you would have a very well established fitration system.

in order to do that though you may have to go with bigger filters than for your size tank.

that's what I did for my 40 gallon.

I have like 200 gls of filtration on it.

and on my 75 I have about 180 gls of filtrration
[/quote]

what r u talkin about 200g and 180g of filtration?.. we arent keeping goldfish..

dont talk about sh*t u dont know about.. who says u have to clean canisters more often? you do know that when u run a filter on a saltwater tank, u dont use bioballs, biowheel, or filter pads right? so what is there to clean? you have to change the carbon just as often as u would have to in a sump..*


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

jiggy said:


> instead of the sump could i run 2 or more powerheads, skimmer, canister filter and some live rock


yes all those would be fine, you can even add live rock in your canister filter but I would use a anti ammonia based media and carbon to prevent odors, and discoloration.

canister filters are a lot more maintance and you have to clean them a lot more often, to where as having a sump you just have to change the media and that's it.

the choice s youurs though.

remember the more current you create in your tank the better.

if you can find a way to turn every gl. of your tank over every hour, you would have a very well established fitration system.

in order to do that though you may have to go with bigger filters than for your size tank.

that's what I did for my 40 gallon.

I have like 200 gls of filtration on it.

and on my 75 I have about 180 gls of filtrration
[/quote]

what r u talkin about 200g and 180g of filtration?.. we arent keeping goldfish..

dont talk about sh*t u dont know about.. who says u have to clean canisters more often? you do know that when u run a filter on a saltwater tank, u dont use bioballs, biowheel, or filter pads right? so what is there to clean? you have to change the carbon just as often as u would have to in a sump..
[/quote]
by saying I have 200 gl and 180 gl, was maning that I have 2 75 gl bio wheels and a couple of power heads n my 40 and a 75 gl sump a 40 gl hang on filter and a few p heads in my 75 gl.

as far as you saying bio wheels and bio balls don't work on sw boy I sure have had a good success rate for them so far, but you may be right.

I'm just telling him my hands on knowledge that I know of, and if you don't agree than fine but don't sit there and say I don't know whatthe hell imtalking about when I have 2 vey succesful sw tanks in the making.

I must know a little huh.

you may know more than I do but not for long,and I would not any more give out advice that I didn't know about.

evry one has there own opinion, and if he wants t listen to you fine but until he tells me to stop helping him, I wana be as kind and as informative to him as you guys once were to me


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## Fish Finder (Mar 25, 2005)

Trillion said:


> instead of the sump could i run 2 or more powerheads, skimmer, canister filter and some live rock


yes all those would be fine, you can even add live rock in your canister filter but I would use a anti ammonia based media and carbon to prevent odors, and discoloration.

canister filters are a lot more maintance and you have to clean them a lot more often, to where as having a sump you just have to change the media and that's it.

the choice s youurs though.

remember the more current you create in your tank the better.

if you can find a way to turn every gl. of your tank over every hour, you would have a very well established fitration system.

in order to do that though you may have to go with bigger filters than for your size tank.

that's what I did for my 40 gallon.

I have like 200 gls of filtration on it.

and on my 75 I have about 180 gls of filtrration
[/quote]

what r u talkin about 200g and 180g of filtration?.. we arent keeping goldfish..

dont talk about sh*t u dont know about.. who says u have to clean canisters more often? you do know that when u run a filter on a saltwater tank, u dont use bioballs, biowheel, or filter pads right? so what is there to clean? you have to change the carbon just as often as u would have to in a sump..
[/quote]
by saying I have 200 gl and 180 gl, was maning that I have 2 75 gl bio wheels and a couple of power heads n my 40 and a 75 gl sump a 40 gl hang on filter and a few p heads in my 75 gl.

as far as you saying bio wheels and bio balls don't work on sw boy I sure have had a good success rate for them so far, but you may be right.

I'm just telling him my hands on knowledge that I know of, and if you don't agree than fine but don't sit there and say I don't know whatthe hell imtalking about when I have 2 vey succesful sw tanks in the making.

I must know a little huh.

you may know more than I do but not for long,and I would not any more give out advice that I didn't know about.

evry one has there own opinion, and if he wants t listen to you fine but until he tells me to stop helping him, I wana be as kind and as informative to him as you guys once were to me
[/quote]

You know what's funny Trillion. Of all the post i see you make here about prob's your haveing with your tank "my delemma" (Where you clearly state that you havent cycled the tank but you put fish in), "Like a heat wave", ect ect ect. You also clearly state here that you have "2 very successful sw tanks in the MAKEING". That mean's that you do know very little about sw. Jiggy was right on what he said he has been doing sw fish for some time just as i do. We both do this for a liveing "working with sw fish". You still have a lot to learn about sw kid.

bufu11 sorry for the derail of your thread. As for your question "instead of the sump could i run 2 or more powerheads, skimmer, canister filter and some live rock" Yes that will work but i would recomend for you to get at least the gallage amount of like rock EX. 55G tank = 55lbs of live rock. Any kind of media or chemical you throw into the tank is disrupting the cycle of the tank.


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

[/quote]

You know what's funny Trillion. Of all the post i see you make here about prob's your haveing with your tank "my delemma" (Where you clearly state that you havent cycled the tank but you put fish in), "Like a heat wave", ect ect ect. You also clearly state here that you have "2 very successful sw tanks in the MAKEING". That mean's that you do know very little about sw. Jiggy was right on what he said he has been doing sw fish for some time just as i do. We both do this for a liveing "working with sw fish". You still have a lot to learn about sw kid.

bufu11 sorry for the derail of your thread. As for your question "instead of the sump could i run 2 or more powerheads, skimmer, canister filter and some live rock" Yes that will work but i would recomend for you to get at least the gallage amount of like rock EX. 55G tank = 55lbs of live rock. Any kind of media or chemical you throw into the tank is disrupting the cycle of the tank.
[/quote]

When did i ever state that i was the expert, you just basically stated what i just said.

you guys are the experts like i said but if i see that none of you guys are responding to someones add and i know a little bit about what they are wanting to know then im gonna give tham advice.

if i dont know what the hell they are talking about then you need not worry, though i may have tried before but it was all in good hopes though.

i just wanted to be apart of the help crew, and instead of repeating basically what i said you can just help bufu aint that what he here for help.

i know what ive experienced and how are you guys gonna tell me that i dont know what im doing when all my corals are THRIVING under my light, and all my fish are doing great

i mean i give you guys your props you know more than me and you have expierence but i like to give the people that ask the?s that i know about quick responses like i NEVER get to my?, just cause you do onto otheres as you wish them to do onto you dont ya?

any way you guys seem cool but jeez i dont understand why you guys think im making up sjit and telling him stuff to crash right from the begining, i had a ruff start, but i never had any major loses and you can be in this game 3 months and learn alot especially when you are on here every day like you both kmow i am.

im probably on here more than you guys are, at least 5 times a day for 15 mins at a time at the least.

any way bufu best of luck to you, and if you dont want my help let me know.

but do notice how they critisize me, but they didnt say anything that i told you was wrong did they?


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## Fish Finder (Mar 25, 2005)

im probably on here more than you guys are, at least 5 times a day for 15 mins at a time at the least.

but do notice how they critisize me, but they didnt say anything that i told you was wrong did they?
[/quote]

Oh we know your on all day but that's you. You can only learn so much from forum's the real learning is reading (book's, spices care sheets, ect ect) and hand's on to get the rest of the info. If you rely all of your knolage gathering from forum's you will alway's get short tirm fix and help.

I pointed out that you were wrong when you said canaster filters are big matinance. That to much waterflow is good. That to put pad's and chemical's the canaster if did do use one. All thing's that you sugested to him that were wrong.


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

You'll know if you have too much flow if you cant keep your sand down in your tank, and still there are people keeping bare bottom tanks for that reason. They have a ton of watermovement.
BTW i have 75 times turnover in my tank and my fish are happy.
I dissagree on what you can learn on forums, Its what brought us out of the darkages of reefkeeping. People sharing their exp ect.
The hobby has grown tremendously with the internet.
hands on exp is a key as well, But you can learn on the internet.
Trillion, i would wait before i said my tank was thriving.


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## Trillion (May 10, 2004)

ok well maybe not thriving but at least doing well.

not to be a jerk or any thing but I think the abbreviaton you guys are looking for is etc, not ect.









that's funny fish finder you said, "yaw now I'm on here all day".









I am on a lot, but in my 40 I use a ammonia base media and carbon fillter pads, and amonia filter pads to keep my params nder control.

I use a ammonia based filter pad and ammonia media in my 75 gallon and a nitrate pad and ammonia foam two different kinds.

and my tanks are doing well.

mybe its just luck, and before I give advice I let people knowim steal a rookie

thanks for the comment raptor.


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## jiggy (Jun 27, 2004)

Raptor said:


> You'll know if you have too much flow if you cant keep your sand down in your tank, and still there are people keeping bare bottom tanks for that reason. They have a ton of watermovement.
> BTW i have 75 times turnover in my tank and my fish are happy.
> I dissagree on what you can learn on forums, Its what brought us out of the darkages of reefkeeping. People sharing their exp ect.
> The hobby has grown tremendously with the internet.
> ...


it depends.. some people just learn from personal experience or read books.. ive ran across a few guys on rc with like 2 posts.. and their first post is, 'new to the site, here are pics of my tank'.. n the tank is good enough to be TOTM.. and they also use alot of unconventional stuff because they dont go on forums and read about everyone saying 'you must use halides', etc. < this is how the use of t5's came about for keeping sps..


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## Raptor (Jan 3, 2003)

Yes thats true, But look at the join date. Theres alot of people that lurk in there, and people that had someone that knew that stuff already. But i do agree books are great tools as well, I never said that books were not needed and i always reccomend books to check out.
Theres quite a few i own and i think everyone thinking on getong a sw tank should look at books.
t-5's are big in europe. Hell theres some sweet sps tanks with vho lighting.


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