# Is Crystal Clear Water Not Always Healthy Water?



## newtripoli (Aug 8, 2009)

Hey, I posted in the general discussion area and some members said I might have a water chemistry problem. I was under the assumption, that crystal clear water is healthy water (except for nitrate obviously). So is that not the case? I just added like 10 new plants in the past 2 weeks and I think that threw off my chemistry because some of them started to rot. So healthy water is zero Nitrate?

I have 75 gal, 5 adult Nattereri. Live plants.

ph: 6.6
amonia: pretty much zero. between zero and then next mark 0.25ppm
nitrite: .25ppm
nitrate: 40-80ppm


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## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

your ammonia and nitrites should be 0. nitrates should always be under 40 preferably under 20. clear water is not always healthy water. in either case your tank is not yet cycled. what filtration do you have and how long has the tank had fish in it?


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## BuckeyeGuy777 (Oct 30, 2010)

hes had the tank set up for a few years i believe....IMO its the filtration...you only have a 350 right? you need a 200 another 350 or a canister...ur bio load is way to big for one 350...

i have 4 reds and plant and the 350 wasnt enough...you have 5 reds and convicts


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## newtripoli (Aug 8, 2009)

yeah well the convicts are actually food... i breed them for food. but they are pretty crafty in getting away. They even pick at the piranhas sometimes!!!!

I will have to get another filter... Buckeyye is right. I have a 350penguin on a 75gal. That does 350gallons per hour on the box. Which i think is wayyy overrated but ya. I have had the tank for 4 years actually now that I think about it, and the P's are 4 years old as well. I bought them imported from massiveaggression a while back! I will check amazon.com (I actually work for amazon btw!) or bigals or something.

And FYI BUCKEYE I never said I was from ohio... what made you think that?? I'm from PA and I went to PENN STATE!!! Your buckeye rival hahahaha I went to every home game from 2004-2009 when I attended there, Ohio State was always a crazy game!


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

In general clear water is often cleaner but thats not always the case. Black water rivers in south america are some of the cleanest and most sterile waters dispite being yellow. Water can look dirty and be perfectly clean provided the "dirt" isnt anything harmful.

Alot of p's natually live in black and white water where it looks dirty but it is actually clean and their ideal enviroment. Its more of the hobbiests desire for crystal clear water then the fish as most freshwater fish live in clean water that looks dirty.


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## newtripoli (Aug 8, 2009)

CLUSTER ONE said:


> In general clear water is often cleaner but thats not always the case. Black water rivers in south america are some of the cleanest and most sterile waters dispite being yellow. Water can look dirty and be perfectly clean provided the "dirt" isnt anything harmful.
> 
> Alot of p's natually live in black and white water where it looks dirty but it is actually clean and their ideal enviroment. Its more of the hobbiests desire for crystal clear water then the fish as most freshwater fish live in clean water that looks dirty.


Understood, you are referring to debris in the water. That is common in wild because of the current and flow, it constantly kicks up debris, however like you pointed out the water is still healthy.

In an aquarium, unless you have a serious waterfall or something to stir up the gravel, there will always be a debris free environment, as it all settles in the substrate or bottom of the tank similar to a pond.

I'm not talking about debris though, I should have been more clear. I mean like cloudy water which is from chemicals not debris. I always thought that clear water = no ammonia, and maybe not "healthy" water, but definitely not "harmful". Am I wrong?


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## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

your right no ammonia in the water and no nitrites is vital for healthy water. but in the wild that is not just debris you see in the water they are tannins in the water such as in the Amazon. depends on the type of water that dictates what it is that causes the cloudiness or dark coloration.


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## CLUSTER ONE (Aug 2, 2006)

newtripoli said:


> In general clear water is often cleaner but thats not always the case. Black water rivers in south america are some of the cleanest and most sterile waters dispite being yellow. Water can look dirty and be perfectly clean provided the "dirt" isnt anything harmful.
> 
> Alot of p's natually live in black and white water where it looks dirty but it is actually clean and their ideal enviroment. Its more of the hobbiests desire for crystal clear water then the fish as most freshwater fish live in clean water that looks dirty.


Understood, you are referring to debris in the water. That is common in wild because of the current and flow, it constantly kicks up debris, however like you pointed out the water is still healthy.

In an aquarium, unless you have a serious waterfall or something to stir up the gravel, there will always be a debris free environment, as it all settles in the substrate or bottom of the tank similar to a pond.

I'm not talking about debris though, I should have been more clear. I mean like cloudy water which is from chemicals not debris. I always thought that clear water = no ammonia, and maybe not "healthy" water, but definitely not "harmful". Am I wrong?
[/quote]
Debris as in organic matter. This could be from decaying plant matter, wood,food ...


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## newtripoli (Aug 8, 2009)

alright thanks guys! I appreciate the help, I moved the other piranha in a hospital tank today and did water change on the 75gal. I will see what the water params are tomorrow.


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## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

u need a ammonia source moving the fish wont solve the problem. feed less until things come into check and you can add more filtration. moving him into the hospital tank will just cause the same in that tank also.


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## Inflade (Mar 24, 2006)

buy another filter asap. watch your feeding for 2 weeks. i guarantee in 3 weeks those numbers will come down, in 4-5 weeks, most likely at 0.

just to give you an idea of what i use.

40 gallon breeder - solo ruby red and planted - xp2
50 gallon short - solo 4 inch rhom - AC 110/500
75 gallon - mac shoal tank - fluval fx5 (ya its overkill)
75 gallon tank - soon to be solo Manny - xp2 + AC 70/300 (will be replacing the Ac with an xp3)

When buying a filter, its norally only a few extra dollars to go with a bigger filter. i always go for close to 10x turnover depending on the situation. for solo fish it isnt required, but beneficial. With groups of piranha - macs, pygos etc its a necessity.

if you are looking at getting an additional HOB filter, i would go with an AC 110/500. more GPH as well as more bio filtration if you take out the carbon and put another bag of bio max.


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## newtripoli (Aug 8, 2009)

Tensa said:


> u need a ammonia source moving the fish wont solve the problem. feed less until things come into check and you can add more filtration. moving him into the hospital tank will just cause the same in that tank also.


Not quite sure what you mean here. I moved the piranha to a hospital tank for a skin fungus, and I am treating with pimafix.

Also, the ammonia was at ZERO to next lowest amount. In between them. I would not qualify that as OMG a chrissis move the fish out ASAP! I attributed that ammonia spike to the introduction of all the new plants. As I have had this tank for 4 years, and never had an ammonia problem except for in the beginning, when it was at a steady 4.0ppm. That was in need of immediate action. Like I said, now it is at 0 to 0.1

I will take tests later tonight and post them up here.
Thanks to all for the advice though! I looked at the AC110, but I need every penny. So I got the penguin 350, for $35. The AC110, was $50+. I can also put BIOBAGS, in my penguin filter as well. Which I am going to do.. Thanks!


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## Tensa (Jul 28, 2008)

newtripoli said:


> u need a ammonia source moving the fish wont solve the problem. feed less until things come into check and you can add more filtration. moving him into the hospital tank will just cause the same in that tank also.


Not quite sure what you mean here. I moved the piranha to a hospital tank for a skin fungus, and I am treating with pimafix.

Also, the ammonia was at ZERO to next lowest amount. In between them. I would not qualify that as OMG a chrissis move the fish out ASAP! I attributed that ammonia spike to the introduction of all the new plants. As I have had this tank for 4 years, and never had an ammonia problem except for in the beginning, when it was at a steady 4.0ppm. That was in need of immediate action. Like I said, now it is at 0 to 0.1

I will take tests later tonight and post them up here.
Thanks to all for the advice though! I looked at the AC110, but I need every penny. So I got the penguin 350, for $35. The AC110, was $50+. I can also put BIOBAGS, in my penguin filter as well. Which I am going to do.. Thanks!
[/quote]

when you remove a fish from the tank it decreases the bioload on the tank if there are no fish in the tank then there is no ammonia source when you add it to the hospital tank it causes the load to increase in that tank as well which would cause a ammonia spike and nitrite spike. i was probably assuming your fish was otherwise healthy and i did not know about a fungus issue. but still removing the fish from the main tank reduces the amount of ammonia so it knocks the cycle out of whack even further then what your at since you ar registering ammonia right now. your ammonia will likely go up again when you add the P back to the main tank. since your treating with meds then yes it makes sense to place it in a smaller tank to reduce the amount of meds needed. and i never called this a crisis or omg moment. and if you have any ammonia or nitrites there is a issue in your case you dont have enough media for beneficial bacteria your getting a second filter should solve that issue. your initial ammonia from 4 years ago was the beginning of the cycle when it had no beneficial bacteria so the ammonia built up to like you said. not a result of plants just a lack of beneficial bacteria.


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## Johnny_Zanni (Nov 8, 2009)

Fungus's are spread from other fish and things you have put into the tanks...


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## newtripoli (Aug 8, 2009)

Alright just took some readings.

ph: 6.5
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 40 ppm Less than before. Gonna do another water change next week. However, I just checked my tap water for nitrate coming from a well. It reads : 10 ppm out of the faucet. So my next change should bring me to about 25 ppm or 30 ppm depending on any more fish or plant waste.


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## newtripoli (Aug 8, 2009)

Tensa said:


> u need a ammonia source moving the fish wont solve the problem. feed less until things come into check and you can add more filtration. moving him into the hospital tank will just cause the same in that tank also.


Not quite sure what you mean here. I moved the piranha to a hospital tank for a skin fungus, and I am treating with pimafix.

Also, the ammonia was at ZERO to next lowest amount. In between them. I would not qualify that as OMG a chrissis move the fish out ASAP! I attributed that ammonia spike to the introduction of all the new plants. As I have had this tank for 4 years, and never had an ammonia problem except for in the beginning, when it was at a steady 4.0ppm. That was in need of immediate action. Like I said, now it is at 0 to 0.1

I will take tests later tonight and post them up here.
Thanks to all for the advice though! I looked at the AC110, but I need every penny. So I got the penguin 350, for $35. The AC110, was $50+. I can also put BIOBAGS, in my penguin filter as well. Which I am going to do.. Thanks!
[/quote]

when you remove a fish from the tank it decreases the bioload on the tank if there are no fish in the tank then there is no ammonia source when you add it to the hospital tank it causes the load to increase in that tank as well which would cause a ammonia spike and nitrite spike. i was probably assuming your fish was otherwise healthy and i did not know about a fungus issue. but still removing the fish from the main tank reduces the amount of ammonia so it knocks the cycle out of whack even further then what your at since you ar registering ammonia right now. your ammonia will likely go up again when you add the P back to the main tank. since your treating with meds then yes it makes sense to place it in a smaller tank to reduce the amount of meds needed. and i never called this a crisis or omg moment. and if you have any ammonia or nitrites there is a issue in your case you dont have enough media for beneficial bacteria your getting a second filter should solve that issue. your initial ammonia from 4 years ago was the beginning of the cycle when it had no beneficial bacteria so the ammonia built up to like you said. not a result of plants just a lack of beneficial bacteria.
[/quote]

About the crisis, I was referring to inflade's comment about buying another filter ASAP, which I already did. Im not worried about the hospital tank bioload, it used to house about 60 convicts when I raised them for feeders, they were recently moved into piranha tank, and I had 2 convicts left in the hospital tank which I moved into the piranha tank, and moved the one piranha into the hospital tank. There are 4 piranhas left in the 75. I checked the levels on the hospital tank and they are all 0 except 30ppm nitrate


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