# For those of you that think Cohabitation



## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Here are the after effects of so-called "shoaling" p's. Let it be a warning!


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## Piranha Guy (Oct 22, 2003)

Yea that happens


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## NegativeCamber (Nov 29, 2004)

Frank -- was is/was in the tank -- (size, species, and #)


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## hrdbyte (Feb 2, 2005)

that sucks .. so what did you do separate them after that??


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## Esoteric (Jul 7, 2004)

Sad to see such a nice Mac go. Survival of the fittest


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

S. sanchezi in a 55g with another one that is now fat and happy. TL about 5 inches.


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## waspride (Jun 13, 2004)

Sucks.


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## Mughal (Mar 3, 2005)

So sad to let the SanZ die. Did you forget to feed them?


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## x-J-x (Nov 28, 2002)

Post that pic every time anyone asked about mixing serra...Sorry for the lost F.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Mughal Posted Yesterday, 11:30 PM
> So sad to let the SanZ die. *Did you forget to feed them? *


Are you kidding me?


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## marco (Jan 2, 2003)

was there a third one in there to help spread the agression frank? if there was, do you think this could have been avoided?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> marco Posted Today, 12:22 AM
> was there a third one in there to help spread the agression frank? if there was, do you think this could have been avoided?


No, I'm just a dumb ass that don't know squat. Please advice me on how I could have overlooked all of this wisdom in 40 plus years!


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## dutchfrompredator (Sep 26, 2004)

frank, 
unless you include in your sig or something that you're the czar of all things piranha related and have decades of experience, you're gonna get questions and comments like that from people who don't know you yet from time to time. it's just a consequence of rolling membership and people with different levels of exposure and experience trying to participate.


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## marco (Jan 2, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > marco Posted Today, 12:22 AM
> > was there a third one in there to help spread the agression frank? if there was, do you think this could have been avoided?
> 
> 
> ...


i posted that so that other people would know that if there was a 3rd fish. all of this could have been possibly avoided.

i know your not a dumb ass


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## BizzyBone (Feb 15, 2005)

[email protected] dutch


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## Winkyee (Feb 17, 2003)

I strongly believe that most Serrasalmus based "cohabitation experiments" are doomed from the start.
A missed feeding, rise in tank temp or some other variable will result in a loss of life for one of our toothy friends.Most often this will carry on untill there is only one left with stubs for fins and the body showing scars.
It might work for a day, week or month but there WILL be losses.


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## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)

marco said:


> hastatus said:
> 
> 
> > > marco Posted Today, 12:22 AM
> ...


Marco your such a Douche sometimes ...


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## traumatic (Jan 29, 2003)

does anyone here visit NO LINKS ALLOWED? I know, it's like a red headed step child site to p-fury. Some dude on there has every concievable common serra in one tank.














Others praise him for it.


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## hiphopn (Feb 10, 2005)

traumatic said:


> does anyone here visit NO LINKS ALLOWED? I know, it's like a red headed step child site to p-fury. Some dude on there has every concievable common serra in one tank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i honestly dont think that is true cuz i was over theere and there was all kinds of evidence that the fish were not actually living together but rather put together just for the shot. i dont know and i really dont care. he will most likelly lose all his money he has spent on fish if they are living together when they get to hungry or mad????????


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

What's amazing to me is that some folks think fish can count how many of their own species are in a tank.







The only difference it makes to the fish is whether or not it will eat or be eaten.


> dutchfrompredator Posted Today, 06:28 AM
> *frank,
> unless you include in your sig or something that you're the czar of all things piranha related and have decades of experience, you're gonna get questions and comments like that from people who don't know you yet from time to time*. it's just a consequence of rolling membership and people with different levels of exposure and experience trying to participate.


Czar eh? I've been called worse.







Actually, my PFURY name, avitar and real name below it should be enough. I don't include much else in the signature other than links to OPEFE. I think everyone here or at least that have been around for a few years know that these tests don't last long that's why anyone with a half a brain and can read, will tell you those tests ultimately fail. Here is another example of a larger piraya being eaten by another piraya 3 inches smaller! Both were well fed fed daily and no signs of aggression. Just 1 day, something went wrong in that tank known only to the fish.


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## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)

> What's amazing to me is that some folks think fish can count how many of their own species are in a tank. The only difference it makes to the fish is whether or not it will eat or be eaten.


Wonderful


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Historical photo of successful "cohabitation"......at least for a few moments.


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## 351winsor (Aug 3, 2004)

poor guy.RIP


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> 351winsor Posted Today, 01:13 PM
> poor guy.RIP


The sad truth is, no matter how many scientific documents are produced (See S. brandtii in PSCI-REVIEW) on the diet of Serrasalmus or published books, there will always be someone out there ready to say, hey look at my tank, it works here! They will use their prejudiced reasoning to make their point stick in a photo moment of time. As if to say, my fish are different because I MAKE IT WORK! Its sad the fish don't comprehend that. You ask any authority on piranhas and they will quick dismiss someone trying these tests in their home aquarium as misquided or more direct "quackery". That's why they are not taken seriously nor by me.

As I've always said, if you have the bucks to blow, keep going down that path. The beast will quickly disprove you in the end.


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

That sucks Frank.....And please.....Keep your comments to yourself when your around my tanks, my fish believe they can live together and I dont need anyone telling them they are wrong :rasp:


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Grosse Gurke Posted Today, 04:13 PM
> That sucks Frank.....And please.....Keep your comments to yourself when your around my tanks, my fish believe they can live together and I dont need anyone telling them they are wrong


Here read them this bedtime story then.







The information is fake as are the photos below.







You know scientists only make up stuff.





















They live real peaceful in nature. Some scientists just used a scissors to clip them tails off for effects.


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## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

just wondering why would u put them together if theyre gonna kill each other for sure?? not trying to start anything.. just wondering


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> 33truballa33 Posted Today, 10:55 PM
> just wondering why would u put them together if theyre gonna kill each other for sure?? not trying to start anything.. just wondering


Reasonable question. Because we have many young inexperienced hobbyists come here and if you read P-Discussion it is always flooded with comments on p shoaling, trolling and cohabitating. Much of this nonsense is brought here from other forums. They don't read the science, they don't read the books, but what they do see is the photos based on moments in time. Hobbyists make claims on how long they keep their Serrasalmus species together and then produce photos supposedly proving something. Science will not recognize it because it is pure bunk as much as some folks desire to have the fame on accomplishing it. It doesn't take an expert to see on many of the photos posted here in PFURY on shoaling p's or cohabitating p's the damage seen on the fins. You can gloss it over all you want, point is, they are being mutiliated and its only a matter of time before the flesh is cut into.

I'm not trying to force you or anyone else to accept my view. What I am doing is showing you the view of science and what is noted in published works. Not fly-by-night internet forum cyance by a handful of hopefuls.

As for the rest of your question:

I put them together solely to illustrate what is already known to science but hobbyists in a small community of thinking refuse to accept, that being Serrasalmus species are fin biters and will kill their tank mates. I've been mixing species since 1967 and the results in the end wind up the same, severely bitten or killed fishes. I have produced photos from as far back as 1987 and still the same old drawn out argument that Serrasalmus species can be "cohabitated" which Dr. William L. Fink has stated is a stupid word to use on piranhas is still being promoted. Science by experts in the field have written on this topic, produced photos and yet you have single minded individuals that can't get out of their fish tank mentality. You cannot change the natural diet of these fishes.

Lastly, you can argue the point of 'cohabitation' until your blue in the face, but in the end, the science is not supported in or out of the tank based on 1 individuals narrow view. I doubt there is any hobbyist in the world that contest Dr. Fink's credibility on these matters, but I'm almost sure you can come up with one that thinks they can challenge Fink out of their aquarium.
















Foolish is, as foolish does.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

On another round of topics, here is my 150g STOCK TANK with 14 Pygocentrus (cariba, ternetzi and nattereri). I took this photo a week or so ago. I'll be adding some floating plants and tree branches later. The tank is about 2 feet deep.

There is a single S. sanchezi hiding among the rocks. He's to scared to come out and play with the big boys. We'll see if he stays hidden, becomes lunch, or gets brave enough to snack on fins.


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## mr.bearhasyourlady (Jun 1, 2004)

great shots.sorry about the one that just passed away.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

damn frank, your sanchezi got









how long have you had that sanchezi group together?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Originally, the group was about 20 according to the original owner. They started out as young fish (1/4 inch, probably less). They were kept in a 75g and eventually they reduced themselves less than year to 10. Since their arriving with me in early February, I've been losing them 1 at a time to severe fin biting. I presently have 3 in a 55g, 1 in a 55g now (see photo with loss), 1 in a 150g tub which evidently is feeding on Pygo's fins, but staying out reach in the rocks and hidden, the balance are in single tanks. Altogether 8 left out of the original 10 and from the original 20. One interesting aspect is, they bite the anal fin so severe that it goes right to the flesh and eventually they eat the fish from that angle. So the fish dies from shock. The 3 in the 55g are fed heavily just so that they minimize the fin biting, but its a habit they are not about to give up. In viewing them constantly, they stay about 10-12 inches away from each other, always facing one another. I'm keeping track of it all for OPEFE information.

Again, my point is not to discourage anyone from trying these tests, but hope more young hobbyists that are short on cash, don't buy into the myth of cohabitation thereby causing them to lose their pet and their money on such ventures. While it sounds "glamourous" to do something impossible for some, it is also irresponsible to suggest the nature of the beast can be controlled to the point no attacks are made towards the fins or the body. That's why I said the nature of the beast will fool you.


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## hyphen (Apr 4, 2004)

interesting information.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

One other point, the original owner also told me it was fascinating to watch these 20 fish (when they were all alive) swim together in nice "shoals". That remark is consistent with how juvenile groups behave in the wild where they congregate together for protection from larger predators and more or less from each other.

So in my opinion, maturity is 1 key to watch for in case of predation.


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## icedizzle (Feb 3, 2005)

I definatley think its good that you keep posting such "graphic" information as a reminder to new hobbiests and ones who should know better but choose not to listen to conventional wisdom.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> icedizzle Posted Today, 09:09 AM
> I definatley think its good that you keep posting such "graphic" information as a reminder to new hobbiests and ones who should know better but choose not to listen to conventional wisdom.










I doubt that will stop them, but at least they know they were warned.







Once as a very young man, I had the illusions of having an Amazon river aquarium in my home where all the species were kept together in peaceful harmony. Unfortunately with piranhas, peaceful harmony means an alcohol or formalin filled bottle. Over the years, you tend to rid your mind of what you want and focus more on what you have.


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## the grinch (Feb 23, 2004)

I learned the hard way as far as mixing pygo's and Serra's. This was before i found the site, and continued to do so until a few weeks ago when i removed the remaining surviving maculatus. Too many flesh wounds on him. I never had an all mac species in a large tank, and wish i would have done so, so i could have watched their behavior in a single species tank. I will not do so now because i am not into loosing any more fish. So in my own experience it was a slow disaster mixing serra's and pygo's, even in a 180g tank.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

You can defer to this link. You can see where someone posted a photo of several species together. I assume the attempt was to "PROVE" cohabitation. But as I pointed out along with another P-FURY member, the biting is evident on the fins. Does the photo prove "cohabitation" ? Of course not, but anyone that doesn't understand or comprehend the word thinks that is a successful set up. That's like seeing someone driving down the road in a car. He might be on the road, but doesn't mean he has a license to drive.:laugh: So it is with seeing a photo. You can see a group of fish together and say, wow they are cohabitating, but look deeper at the individuals and the real story is revealed.


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## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

u should gimme ur ternetzi so that one sanchezi has more room in that 150 of urs







.. thanks for the clarrification


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> 33truballa33 Posted Today, 10:47 AM
> u should gimme ur ternetzi so that one sanchezi has more room in that 150 of urs .. thanks for the clarrification


Naaaaah, the tern might make a good plate of dinner one day. Majority of those fishes are over 10 inches and seem to be growing more since being put into the tub. BTW that lone ranger sanchezi has been swimming among the big boys. Mostly staying behind them, biting them then quickly hightailing it back to the rocks. Its hilarious because the big boys don't know what to do. The smaller cariba (7 inches) hang near the rocks, but the sanchezi is biting them near the anal fin. Just small nips. I'm more or less interested to see how long he remains in there and grows or if he gets eaten in the end.


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## PiranhaMaster (Oct 21, 2003)

You guys are too funny. It doesn't bother me one bit if you don't believe they have been together for over a year or less than a minute. And all the negative posts don't bother me either. i know what I have and I am only keeping them for myself, not anyone else on this site. I may be a total dumbass for attempting this in the first place but I don't lie. It is something I chose to do, right or wrong really doesn't matter.

Here My Serra's is a link to my gallery when I first posted a pic of them when they were all 2" roughly. The pic is dated as uploaded Nov. 2003. As you can see in the pics at the beginning of this thread, they are 5-6" now.

The nets are on top to add feeders from the tank below. The elongatus was added in the middle of 2004 I believe, I posted pics of them too back then.

All the nips are because they have outgrown the tank and I haven't gotten around to upgrading yet. I have actually thought about going Noah on my tank and only allow 2 of each species rather than upgrading the tank. I don't have alot of extra room for a giant tank right now. I have too many big fish that need their own tanks spread around.

Here My Gallery is a link to my complete gallery, where you can make fun of all of my pics.



hastatus said:


> I'm more or less interested to see how long he remains in there and grows or if he gets eaten in the end.
> [snapback]927742[/snapback]​


Frank, I see you are starting to follow the same path. Once I mixed them I just decided to let them stay together no matter what the results finally end up being.

I too just want to see what happens. To me they are just fish, If they all die I'll buy more.

Those of you who like to see the pics, enjoy... Those who don't blast away.


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## PiranhaMaster (Oct 21, 2003)

I just looked it up... 1st elong photo uploaded 2-15-2004


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> PiranhaMaster Posted Today, 04:01 PM
> You guys are too funny. It doesn't bother me one bit if you don't believe they have been together for over a year or less than a minute. And all the negative posts don't bother me either. i know what I have and I am only keeping them for myself, not anyone else on this site. I may be a total dumbass for attempting this in the first place but I don't lie. It is something I chose to do, right or wrong really doesn't matter.
> 
> Here My Serra's is a link to my gallery when I first posted a pic of them when they were all 2" roughly. The pic is dated as uploaded Nov. 2003. As you can see in the pics at the beginning of this thread, they are 5-6" now.
> ...


Follow? same path? This is nothing new to me. I was doing this since the early 60's. I already know the end results, the purpose to write material for OPEFE with photos. Other than that, they are NOT JUST FISH to me but living critters, that's where you and I certainly differ.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks for the first photo, I'll look at the rest later, I marked the bit fins.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

BTW nice tank.







Not able to see the balance of the fishes since there are only 7 here, a few less than the top.


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## PiranhaMaster (Oct 21, 2003)

hastatus said:


> Thanks for the first photo, I'll look at the rest later, I marked the bit fins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with this pic... Where do you see me trying to imply that there isn't fin nipping going on? Fin nipping does not kill the fish and has gone on since day one. They are still living and sharing tank space.

They have been together for 18 months, that is all I am trying to show you.

I had Nattereri that fought all the time, does this mean they can't be kept together?

At no point in any post have I ever claimed a "peaceful" environment. These pics are just to show the same fish in the same tank still alive after 18 months.

If you want to use my pics to discourage others from doing the same then go ahead, as I would not recommend my practice to anyone who can't accept the possibility of loss. I am showing you MY tank and MY practice, I am not attempting to pass it off as the proper thing to do.

And we all know that nobody is as old as you, and nobody has the experience you have, and nobody ever will. You can stop saying it over and over just to prove you are the alltime greatest piranha keeper the world has ever known. You should probably just post a thread about how great you are at the top of your forums so we can all read your resume anytime we have our doubts.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> PiranhaMaster Posted Today, 06:32 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Mar 10 2005, 11:37 PM)
> Thanks for the first photo, I'll look at the rest later, I marked the bit fins.
> 
> ...


Was that good for you? Was for me.:laugh: You've already made your point on what type of hobbyist you are. No other words from me is needed.










> I too just want to see what happens. To me they are just fish, If they all die I'll buy more


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Perhaps PM you missed the absurd science reports. Here you go again. Perhaps the scientists can be taught a thing or two by you.


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## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

Frank,
Not trying to bring this up again. I know serra species are not to be kept in the same tank. I'm not questioning that, but what about Geryi? Aren't they Serra species? What's the difference between some Serras and Geryi? (Not saying physical or locality) But why is it possible for Geryi to be put in the same tank (as long as its big enough) and not a different Serra? Is it their attitude or their nature towards other Geryi and they just don't mind the other fish in the tank? (I've read OPEEFE and it just amazing how Geryi will be okay together as long as they are properly cared for, but then the pic of the Sanchezi above shows you they can't and shouldn't be in the same tank).

In no way am I saying I'm gonna put all serras together or anything like that, but yes I do plan on getting a third Geryi or more and putting in my new tank to have them live together (not shoal). Right now I have a divider between the two Geryi and they don't even seem to mind the other one. They look but not stare, they don't try to attack. I had golds spilos or macs seperated before and all they did was stare down each other. Just amazing how the Serra species interact differently.

Reason I'm asking this is because one this are my fish that I do care for them. I do what to get more to have live in the tank, not die in the tank. (Hard enough to find as it is). I am gonna try to keep them in the same tank, make a natual environment for them and might even try to breed them.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> b_ack51 Posted Today, 07:32 AM
> Frank,
> Not trying to bring this up again. I know serra species are not to be kept in the same tank. *I'm not questioning that, but what about Geryi? Aren't they Serra species? What's the difference between some Serras and Geryi? (Not saying physical or locality) But why is it possible for Geryi to be put in the same tank (as long as its big enough) and not a different Serra? *Is it their attitude or their nature towards other Geryi and they just don't mind the other fish in the tank? (I've read OPEEFE and it just amazing how Geryi will be okay together as long as they are properly cared for, but then the pic of the Sanchezi above shows you they can't and shouldn't be in the same tank).
> 
> ...


You have a lot of stuff written there, but I'm going to focus on just primary questions in bold.

I know only of 3 people who keep S. geryi together, the first one recorded was George Sheh (circa 2000), Bob Hare and our own Jeff (Grosse Gurke). George mentioned that in the case of his fishes, fin nipping was a slight problem. I'd have to defer to Bob to find out how it went for him, though I think he eventually got rid of his collection if I remember correctly. And GG is presently working with his.

Having said that, I have also read correspondence from other hobbyists that have had the opposite experience of keeping them together. One thing I want to make clear, Serrasalmus species as a scientific group are recognized as fin biters being the primary diet. I've also said on more than one occasion, this habit of eating fins is a newable resource, much like cows that graze the field. *The problem rests that in the tank, the fishes being bit don't have anywhere to flee, so once the caudal, dorsal and anal fin are reduced to a stub from the biting, then the flesh gets attacked.* That's the reality of the Serrasalmus species. I've highlited that point for emphasis. There is not enough evidence (unlike the majority of Serrasalmus species epecially S. rhombeus) to suggest that S. geryi can be kept without injuries in the home aquario. Its to early in the hobby to proclaim that as a fact. That's why I wrote in OPEFE information is sketchy. These are not cheap fish to buy, though after reading and replying to 1 member here, some folks don't put much value in life, much less a fishes life that is supposed to be a pet. So I tend to err toward caution for the fishes sake (your pet). Not every Serrasalmus species put together will kill each other right away, though from the vast majority of reports that seems to be the case. S. geryi may or may not be the expection to the rule. Again, there is not enough documentation to support that. It is a rare species who's habitat is being wiped out by human interference. Eventually, that species will be extinct. Breeding projects that are ethically done I do support. Those that seek only the glory of it, I don't. There are indeed ongoing breeding projects in Aquacultura in South America. You don't read about it because much of it is not focused on piranas which is considered a trash fish. But in the last 4 or so years since talking with Michel Jegu and Labbish Chao, there is renewed interest in perhaps devoting some funds to saving rare species like S. geryi (IN THAT COUNTRY). No hobbyist in the U.S. will get the attention of the world should S. geryi breed in their tank, except maybe thru TFH. Its not putting down that accomplishment, its just that hobbyists don't use sophisticated equipment to actually record what is going on. And I don't mean just using video cameras or a cheap kids microscope.

PS: I don't count dealers as being "successful" because they move fishes all the time and most cram their fishes together. They don't have the time to observe their fishes they sell behavior day in and day out.


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## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)

Wow I guess I got kept off the list


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> MR HARLEY Posted Today, 08:52 AM
> Wow I guess I got kept off the list


Not deliberately.







The folks I mention have 6 or more fishes in their group. I see just 3 in yours.


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## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > MR HARLEY Posted Today, 08:52 AM
> > Wow I guess I got kept off the list
> 
> 
> ...


And youll see a Fourth one on Monday when I go pick him up and introduce


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## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

still not on the list... ur the weakest link... GOODBYE


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> 33truballa33 Posted Today, 10:22 AM
> still not on the list... ur the weakest link... GOODBYE


Not so fast!


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## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)




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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I thought you'd like that.


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## b_ack51 (Feb 11, 2003)

Well after Harley, I guess is me. With two. Going for three or more. Hopefully I can find out soon. I've heard about their habitat and the possibility of their extinction, hence the reason I wouldn't mind if they breed. Hands down, my favorite piranha and pet.

And thank you for your caution on my fish, to me my fish is not a collectors item or something that I don't care gets hurt. They're my pets. They eat better than me & live better than me. I check on them first thing when I wake up, before I leave for work, when I get home from work, if I'm sitting in my room, and then right before bed. Right now they're in the waiting period for the new tank which hopefully I can get set up in the next couple weeks.


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## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)

b_ack51 said:


> Well after Harley, I guess is me. With two. Going for three or more. Hopefully I can find out soon. I've heard about their habitat and the possibility of their extinction, hence the reason I wouldn't mind if they breed. Hands down, my favorite piranha and pet.
> 
> And thank you for your caution on my fish, to me my fish is not a collectors item or something that I don't care gets hurt. They're my pets. They eat better than me & live better than me. I check on them first thing when I wake up, before I leave for work, when I get home from work, if I'm sitting in my room, and then right before bed. Right now they're in the waiting period for the new tank which hopefully I can get set up in the next couple weeks.
> [snapback]929529[/snapback]​


Looks something like this huh ?








I remember the Days


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

The tub (150g Ag Stock Tank). Look who's playing among the big boys!


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## Stranger (Jul 1, 2004)

> On another round of topics, here is my 150g STOCK TANK with 14 Pygocentrus (cariba, ternetzi and nattereri). I took this photo a week or so ago. I'll be adding some floating plants and tree branches later. The tank is about 2 feet deep.
> 
> There is a single S. sanchezi hiding among the rocks. He's to scared to come out and play with the big boys. We'll see if he stays hidden, becomes lunch, or gets brave enough to snack on fins.


do you live in a house? if so, is that 2nd floor? or 1st floor? i have a 150g, 6 feet long tank, but i havent set it up cause i thought my floor would cave in. plus i have a 60g running already, n e details/tips would help me out alot. THANKS!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Stranger Posted Today, 03:40 PM
> QUOTE
> On another round of topics, here is my 150g STOCK TANK with 14 Pygocentrus (cariba, ternetzi and nattereri). I took this photo a week or so ago. I'll be adding some floating plants and tree branches later. The tank is about 2 feet deep.
> 
> ...


I'm fortunate (today) to live in a home where a portion was converted to a store front, a back room so to speak. The stock tank is on a concrete carpeted floor. So the access weight is carried quite well. Indeed, I may add 3 more stock tanks and get rid of the aquariums altogether. They make good conversation pieces and allow one to view from the top as if looking down in a pond.

In your case, I would put the tank next to a wall (corner) where the weight bearing is better (joists). The best thing you can do is ask the landlord if you rent or if you do own, look the floor plan over.


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## x-drugy (Jan 19, 2005)

O.k. I think we get the picture that serras can't and won't shoal together without a loss. However I do think that serras can shoal with pygos given enough tank space. I have owned piranhas for 13 years. In the begining I made the same mistake by mixing serras and obviously suffered a loss. Keep in mind that I did this in a 55 gal. Of course it isn't going to work. Yes I consider Frank one of the gurus of piranha owning but I also consider Wayne Mah and Stick's word as gospel. Wayne Mah tought me in my early years and was responsible for getting me to be one of the first few piraya owners in the country. I payed 300 bucks for a 2" piraya 10 years ago. But it was worth it. Thanks to Wayne. But now I draw my attention towards Stick. Have you been reading his posts? He is my best friend but he has owned piranhas for 18 years and got me into the hobby. By reading his posts you can tell he is highly intelligent and studies his piranhas and the social structure of his tank like a college exam. You tell me how many people on this board have a 750 gal tank filled with 20+ piranhas. You also tell me how many people can grow a ternetzi from dime size to 13" in a year and a half. Don't believe it, I picked the little guys up from the airport for him. He knows how to care for and grow quality fish like no other. A 2" piraya to almost 12" in a year and a half. Yeah he did that too. I saw it. So getting back to the mixing of species. I bought stick an 8" brandti from serrapygo for his bday 2 months ago. At first fin nipping was occurring but not bad. As time progressed he began to act more like a pygo and gets in on the feeding frenzies stuffing himslef full by bitting off huge chunks of bluegills and running off with them so the pygos couldn't get any. Point is maybe species can coexist but I think they need the space and I am talking like at least 750 gal. If people question the mixing question stay tunned to sticks posts. You will find his info extremely accurate and intelligent. As far as I am concerned our 3 gurus on this board are Frank, Wayne, and Stick (oh yeah and knifeman too but I am not heard from him in a while) You pick who you think knows the most but I will always stick with stick.


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## marco (Jan 2, 2003)

MR HARLEY said:


> marco said:
> 
> 
> > hastatus said:
> ...


your gf thinks its sexy....


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## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)

x-drugy said:


> O.k. I think we get the picture that serras can't and won't shoal together without a loss. However I do think that serras can shoal with pygos given enough tank space. I have owned piranhas for 13 years. In the begining I made the same mistake by mixing serras and obviously suffered a loss. Keep in mind that I did this in a 55 gal. Of course it isn't going to work. Yes I consider Frank one of the gurus of piranha owning but I also consider Wayne Mah and Stick's word as gospel. Wayne Mah tought me in my early years and was responsible for getting me to be one of the first few piraya owners in the country. I payed 300 bucks for a 2" piraya 10 years ago. But it was worth it. Thanks to Wayne. But now I draw my attention towards Stick. Have you been reading his posts? He is my best friend but he has owned piranhas for 18 years and got me into the hobby. By reading his posts you can tell he is highly intelligent and studies his piranhas and the social structure of his tank like a college exam. You tell me how many people on this board have a 750 gal tank filled with 20+ piranhas. You also tell me how many people can grow a ternetzi from dime size to 13" in a year and a half. Don't believe it, I picked the little guys up from the airport for him. He knows how to care for and grow quality fish like no other. A 2" piraya to almost 12" in a year and a half. Yeah he did that too. I saw it. So getting back to the mixing of species. I bought stick an 8" brandti from serrapygo for his bday 2 months ago. At first fin nipping was occurring but not bad. As time progressed he began to act more like a pygo and gets in on the feeding frenzies stuffing himslef full by bitting off huge chunks of bluegills and running off with them so the pygos couldn't get any. Point is maybe species can coexist but I think they need the space and I am talking like at least 750 gal. If people question the mixing question stay tunned to sticks posts. You will find his info extremely accurate and intelligent. As far as I am concerned our 3 gurus on this board are Frank, Wayne, and Stick (oh yeah and knifeman too but I am not heard from him in a while) You pick who you think knows the most but I will always stick with stick.
> [snapback]931146[/snapback]​


Sounds like you wanna stick , stick in his ass :nod:









You act as if your the only one who knows wayne ?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> x-drugy Posted Mar 12 2005, 10:24 PM
> O.k. I think we get the picture that serras can't and won't shoal together without a loss. However I do think that serras can shoal with pygos given enough tank space. I have owned piranhas for 13 years. In the begining I made the same mistake by mixing serras and obviously suffered a loss. Keep in mind that I did this in a 55 gal. Of course it isn't going to work. Yes I consider Frank one of the gurus of piranha owning but I also consider Wayne Mah and Stick's word as gospel. Wayne Mah tought me in my early years and was responsible for getting me to be one of the first few piraya owners in the country. I payed 300 bucks for a 2" piraya 10 years ago. But it was worth it. Thanks to Wayne. But now I draw my attention towards Stick. Have you been reading his posts? He is my best friend but he has owned piranhas for 18 years and got me into the hobby. By reading his posts you can tell he is highly intelligent and studies his piranhas and the social structure of his tank like a college exam. You tell me how many people on this board have a 750 gal tank filled with 20+ piranhas. You also tell me how many people can grow a ternetzi from dime size to 13" in a year and a half. Don't believe it, I picked the little guys up from the airport for him. He knows how to care for and grow quality fish like no other. A 2" piraya to almost 12" in a year and a half. Yeah he did that too. I saw it. So getting back to the mixing of species. I bought stick an 8" brandti from serrapygo for his bday 2 months ago. At first fin nipping was occurring but not bad. As time progressed he began to act more like a pygo and gets in on the feeding frenzies stuffing himslef full by bitting off huge chunks of bluegills and running off with them so the pygos couldn't get any. Point is maybe species can coexist but I think they need the space and I am talking like at least 750 gal. If people question the mixing question stay tunned to sticks posts. *You will find his info extremely accurate and intelligent. As far as I am concerned our 3 gurus on this board are Frank, Wayne, and Stick (oh yeah and knifeman too but I am not heard from him in a while) You pick who you think knows the most but I will always stick with stick *


Is there a point somewhere in this exercise? First, I've known Wayne for quite a few years as well. He'll likely tell you this mixing of Serra's is not a good thing having lost fishes himself. As for Stick, I don't see any disagreement at all in what he is doing and what I have done or doing. Given a large enough area, yes you can keep some mortalities down. Given a large enough area like an Amazon river, the same is true. The nature of Serrasalmus species is to make a meal of fishes fins. If the fish that is constantly being bitten loses more fins then it can afford to lose (given that it is in an aquario), then you will have a mortality. It won't matter if the tank is a 10g or 1,000 gallon. If the fish has no place to go, it will die.

I don't question the credibility of what a person is doing in a home tank, only the credibility of the information as it pertains to what a Serrasalmus species IS.







And it is not a community fish.









PS: Serrasalmus species are natural enemies of Pygocentrus. Ever wonder why?


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## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)

hastatus said:


> > x-drugy Posted Mar 12 2005, 10:24 PM
> > O.k. I think we get the picture that serras can't and won't shoal together without a loss. However I do think that serras can shoal with pygos given enough tank space. I have owned piranhas for 13 years. In the begining I made the same mistake by mixing serras and obviously suffered a loss. Keep in mind that I did this in a 55 gal. Of course it isn't going to work. Yes I consider Frank one of the gurus of piranha owning but I also consider Wayne Mah and Stick's word as gospel. Wayne Mah tought me in my early years and was responsible for getting me to be one of the first few piraya owners in the country. I payed 300 bucks for a 2" piraya 10 years ago. But it was worth it. Thanks to Wayne. But now I draw my attention towards Stick. Have you been reading his posts? He is my best friend but he has owned piranhas for 18 years and got me into the hobby. By reading his posts you can tell he is highly intelligent and studies his piranhas and the social structure of his tank like a college exam. You tell me how many people on this board have a 750 gal tank filled with 20+ piranhas. You also tell me how many people can grow a ternetzi from dime size to 13" in a year and a half. Don't believe it, I picked the little guys up from the airport for him. He knows how to care for and grow quality fish like no other. A 2" piraya to almost 12" in a year and a half. Yeah he did that too. I saw it. So getting back to the mixing of species. I bought stick an 8" brandti from serrapygo for his bday 2 months ago. At first fin nipping was occurring but not bad. As time progressed he began to act more like a pygo and gets in on the feeding frenzies stuffing himslef full by bitting off huge chunks of bluegills and running off with them so the pygos couldn't get any. Point is maybe species can coexist but I think they need the space and I am talking like at least 750 gal. If people question the mixing question stay tunned to sticks posts. *You will find his info extremely accurate and intelligent. As far as I am concerned our 3 gurus on this board are Frank, Wayne, and Stick (oh yeah and knifeman too but I am not heard from him in a while) You pick who you think knows the most but I will always stick with stick *
> 
> 
> ...


Some people think they know everything ....







but Yet cant figure out that there are more people out there doing things of the same nature .

How can you even talk ? have you tried this before . Or are you only going by what you see in Sticks tank ? 
That Brandt just got put in there and you call that a success ? 
Im no way am I talking down about Stick, But for you to come on and say what you think what will go with what by seeing his tank is just plain ludacris . You talk as if there yours and you care for them .
As Frank said In any large amount of water you may have luck but how long that luck lasts is up to them .


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

More photos taken a 1/2 hour ago. It shows pretty much the same as the "stick" test with his S. brandtii. S. maculatus stays away from the rocks and hides behind the aerator. S. sanchezi chases the mac away and tries to bite fins when it comes to close to the rocks. Both S. sanchezi stay close to the rocks (one stays in a cave) comes out to feed on Pygo fins. And if you look close enough you can see bit fins even on the Serrasalmus species within this large 150g Ag tub.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

S. sanchezi....normally these 2 stay about a foot or more apart. This morning, they decided to swim together. You can see the bit fins which are finally beginning to heal. They are being fed finely chopped catfish and shrimp. It seems to help in keeping them fed instead of each other. But I suspect its just a temporary truce.


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## x-drugy (Jan 19, 2005)

ALright Mr. Harley, I see you are quite the little smart ass. You say I act and care like these fish are my own. Well in fact yes some of them are. I had to take down my 210 gallon tank and gave stick all of my pygos. So yes I care for his fish as if they are my own. And I am not saying this experiment is going to work I am just saying that given the room it is possible. So far it seems to be calming down but maybe frank is right and it won't work. ANd as far as you shooting your mouth off saying I am the only one who knows wayne, I can gaurentee I have known him longer and have spoken with him well more than you have. I don't think there is anybody on this board that knows everything but I know from past experience (and I am talking about 13 years of research) I have found Frank's, Wayne's, and sticks to be the most informative and accurate. As far as you Mr. Harley I see you as only a bigmouth. You think I wanna stick stick in the ass heh. Well why don't you pay a visit to his house and see his tank when you pass WI sometime. That way you could see his expiriment yourself and then you could see the whole 280 pounds of me sticking my fist down your throat







BTW Mr. Harley the 280 pounds isn't fat. My point is keep your mouth shut and stay away from WI.


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## sharpteeth (Feb 14, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > marco Posted Today, 12:22 AM
> > was there a third one in there to help spread the agression frank? if there was, do you think this could have been avoided?
> 
> 
> ...


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> x-drugy Posted Today, 06:21 PM
> ALright Mr. Harley, I see you are quite the little smart ass. You say I act and care like these fish are my own. Well in fact yes some of them are. I had to take down my 210 gallon tank and gave stick all of my pygos. So yes I care for his fish as if they are my own. *And I am not saying this experiment is going to work I am just saying that given the room it is possible.* So far it seems to be calming down but maybe frank is right and it won't work. ANd as far as you shooting your mouth off saying I am the only one who knows wayne, I can gaurentee I have known him longer and have spoken with him well more than you have. I don't think there is anybody on this board that knows everything but I know from past experience (and I am talking about 13 years of research) I have found Frank's, Wayne's, and sticks to be the most informative and accurate. As far as you Mr. Harley I see you as only a bigmouth. You think I wanna stick stick in the ass heh. Well why don't you pay a visit to his house and see his tank when you pass WI sometime. That way you could see his expiriment yourself and then you could see the whole 280 pounds of me sticking my fist down your throat BTW Mr. Harley the 280 pounds isn't fat. My point is keep your mouth shut and stay away from WI.


Anyway, we can agree the average home aquarium is NOT the Amazon river where even fin biting and mortalities occur. That's all this thread is about, not who is right or who is wrong. The fish themselves can show you that.


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## x-drugy (Jan 19, 2005)

I agree with you Frank. Actually last night stick and I were sitting down, drinking beer, and starring at his tank (like we always do) and we noticed that the brandti had picked on one of his huge 12" reds. He is a one eyed red and is obviously an easy target for the brandti. Being as weak as he was one of the caribe came over and tried to start eating him. Soon there were many pygos swarming ready for the kill. Stick and I didn't know if we should stop them or just let nature take it's course. (we were kind of hoping he got weeded out sooner or later anyway) For the sake of his red we dumped 3 bluegills in and a chicken leg and the pygos ripped it up in a matter of seconds. I agree with you when you say sooner or later there will be problems but maybe it is just with the weak ones. Maybe not. You know how it is in a pygo tank, when pygos fight and one is injured badly in the incedent then that fish is usually culled out by the stronger most fit fish. It seems like the brandti exhibits the same behavior and only picks on the fish that are weak or insubordinate. He seems to stear clear of the dominate ones or doesn't bother them that much. But you are probably right sooner or later that brandti is going to injure one of those nice pygos and then they will be seen as weak and culled out by the others. Like I said it is an expiriment and the first time stick senses his prize fish are in danger the brandti is coming out and he has a 165gal waiting for him all to himself. I was never disagreeing with you Frank I just thought it was a possiblity given enough tank space. I have never (nor has stick) ever delt with a tank size of 750 gal so I thought the results just may differ. But like you said the fish will tell the story


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I know you are not arguing, no problems from me. I have the same occurence with the S. maculatus and the S. sanchezi, with the sanchezi being the more aggressive. Tonight was the first time the maculatus was able to stay near the rocks for any length of time. The sanchezi's usually chase it away, but this time around it was almost like the maculatus had enough and was standing its ground. Unfortunately, the scars of battle are obvious with the bit fins and all. Tomorrow if I have time, I'll try to capture their fights. The sanchezi's show no fear among the larger Pygocentrus with their swimming next to them and through them like a gauntlet. However, the maculatus seems to draw more the attention of the Pygocentrus, could be because it is slightly more bit up than the sanchezi. From my point of view, I'm surprized the macultus (and the sanchezi) have lasted this long. Especially since the cariba and the ternetzi basically run the pack in there among the giants (common natts).


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## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)

x-drugy said:


> ALright Mr. Harley, I see you are quite the little smart ass. You say I act and care like these fish are my own. Well in fact yes some of them are. I had to take down my 210 gallon tank and gave stick all of my pygos. So yes I care for his fish as if they are my own. And I am not saying this experiment is going to work I am just saying that given the room it is possible. So far it seems to be calming down but maybe frank is right and it won't work. ANd as far as you shooting your mouth off saying I am the only one who knows wayne, I can gaurentee I have known him longer and have spoken with him well more than you have. I don't think there is anybody on this board that knows everything but I know from past experience (and I am talking about 13 years of research) I have found Frank's, Wayne's, and sticks to be the most informative and accurate. As far as you Mr. Harley I see you as only a bigmouth. You think I wanna stick stick in the ass heh. Well why don't you pay a visit to his house and see his tank when you pass WI sometime. That way you could see his expiriment yourself and then you could see the whole 280 pounds of me sticking my fist down your throat
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and your point is ?








You proved nothing with that statement pertaining to Cohab, what this thread is about ...
Also you even state you dont know what your doing with a tank of that size ..


> I have never ever delt with a tank size of 750 gal so I thought the results just may differ.


But because You , In your mind thinks it can be done , as shown here


> so I thought the results just may differ.


.
As so because you think so the fish are gonna co-Hab right ? Give me a break
and you even have results that it aint happening ..


> and we noticed that the brandti had picked on one of his huge 12" reds. He is a one eyed red and is obviously an easy target for the brandti. Being as weak as he was one of the caribe came over and tried to start eating him. Soon there were many pygos swarming ready for the kill.


and then you try to prevent it by this ...


> For the sake of his red we dumped 3 bluegills in and a chicken leg and the pygos ripped it up in a matter of seconds.


Shall I go on ?


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

I think the basic point being displayed in this thread is that no matter what type of tank you have....all pygo...all serra.....or a mix of both....there is always the possibility of injuries and fatalities with some having a higher rate of success then others.

There are no guarantees in this hobby, however, there are ways to increase your rate of success like tank size, single species, pygos only........

Something everyone should take out of this thread, and others like it, is that no one is inventing the wheel by attempting to mix species...it has been tried many many times, expect to loose a fish or 2 should you try it, and dont expect the long time fish keepers to jump on your ban wagon if it works for a month or 6......these tanks have been kept together for years but the end result has always been the same.......you will loose fish.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Grosse Gurke Posted Today, 10:50 AM
> I think the basic point being displayed in this thread is that no matter what type of tank you have....all pygo...all serra.....or a mix of both....there is always the possibility of injuries and fatalities with some having a higher rate of success then others.
> 
> There are no guarantees in this hobby, however, there are ways to increase your rate of success like tank size, single species, pygos only........
> ...


Exactly! Well put GG. People forget, regret, or simply refuse to accept, that in the Amazon river itself, the fishes do the same thing that you see in the fish tank with the minor exception that they have an entire river to flee into whereas the fish tank the space is confined by 4 corners and possible even the bottom (NO HOLES to dive into) on the top to jump out of. And yes I agree that some people think they are re-inventing the wheel or are doing something different or unique..DUH! Just proves to me that they don't know sh** about the animals they are keeping. Having said that, I think its a good thing Stick is doing what he is doing and keeping a record of it. I'm doing the same thing with the S. maculaus and S. sanchezi within that menagerie of beasts. I already know the end results, just like I know what happens in nature. I also know there will always be others that think they are disproving something by attempting it. That's why I say again, _the fishes will decide for you who is right and who is wrong. _ If you want pristine fish, keep the separate from their natural enemies. If you wish to try this piranha eco-system, then be forewarned the results are established by science and aquarists who have have tried for years.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

More photos with notes. You can see the size differences as well:


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

Im going to have to get me one of those tanks....I love that view from above!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

You should see the xpression of people when they see it in real life.







It takes a while to get used to it from the top view, but its worth it at night (I use a low wattage lamp to give it a night moonlight glow). During the day, I have the curtains open all the time so that the fish get sunlight in. Next month I'm installing a UV built in filter for ponds (around $189). This will take care of any algal growth or green water that might occur from the sunlight. April, water lillies will added and some drift wood I'm picking up on Sunday to give it more of a small "pond" look.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

BTW, a web page taking shape on this topic. KEEP IT SECRET!


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## traumatic (Jan 29, 2003)

nice frank, have you posted your filtration system anywhere that I may look at?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> traumatic Posted Today, 03:03 PM
> nice frank, have you posted your filtration system anywhere that I may look at?


Presently the filtration is micky mouse. Its consists of old techniques of piling rocks that support and hold 2 power heads with spong filters and 1 enclosed power head and filter box. All of this will be replaced next month with the pond filter. The lava rocks act like a filter media and 1 power head is facing towards the right wall. The water is sucked through the rocks. This causes debries to flow to the left of the tank into a neat pile I can suck out with the python. As I said, its old school and temporary until the proper equipment is installed. Lighting is a 25w 4 foot lamp with direct sunlight filtered by a window. During the warmer days, I open the door when the sun passes over head and unfiltered light comes in. Certainly colors up the fishes more. They seem to enjoy it as well. Water temperature varies from 1 to 2 degrees from daytime (76F) to 73-74F (night time).


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Here is the present system with the future system going in next month.


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## Blitz023 (Feb 19, 2004)

nice info


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## x-drugy (Jan 19, 2005)

Mr. Harley,

My point is that this is an expiriment. There are no givens like frank has stated. I was just saying that people should stay tunned to sticks posts because most likely an expiriment in a tank of 750 or better hasn't been done. I don't try to act like I know everything about piranhas because I don't. All I have learned has been from reading franks old Oregon Piranha website and talking to Wayne ona daily basis not to mention stick. I can tell when I talk to frank, wayne or stick that I am dealing with a completely different intellect than yours. Hell i'd be suprised if you even have a college education. I'll save my comments and questions for more intelligent people on this board. As far as your word goes I will just turn the other way.


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## x-drugy (Jan 19, 2005)

Exactly! Well put GG. People forget, regret, or simply refuse to accept, that in the Amazon river itself, the fishes do the same thing that you see in the fish tank with the minor exception that they have an entire river to flee into whereas the fish tank the space is confined by 4 corners and possible even the bottom (NO HOLES to dive into) on the top to jump out of. And yes I agree that some people think they are re-inventing the wheel or are doing something different or unique..DUH! Just proves to me that they don't know sh** about the animals they are keeping. Having said that, I think its a good thing Stick is doing what he is doing and keeping a record of it. I'm doing the same thing with the S. maculaus and S. sanchezi within that menagerie of beasts. I already know the end results, just like I know what happens in nature. I also know there will always be others that think they are disproving something by attempting it. That's why I say again, the fishes will decide for you who is right and who is wrong. If you want pristine fish, keep the separate from their natural enemies. If you wish to try this piranha eco-system, then be forewarned the results are established by science and aquarists who have have tried for years.

You couldn't have put it any better Frank. That is why I akways listen to what you, Wayne, and stick say. Your old website and continued info help me stay on top of the game. I couldn't say enough about what you have tought me in the last 13 years. Thanks and keep it commin.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> x-drugy Posted Yesterday, 11:28 PM
> Exactly! Well put GG. People forget, regret, or simply refuse to accept, that in the Amazon river itself, the fishes do the same thing that you see in the fish tank with the minor exception that they have an entire river to flee into whereas the fish tank the space is confined by 4 corners and possible even the bottom (NO HOLES to dive into) on the top to jump out of. And yes I agree that some people think they are re-inventing the wheel or are doing something different or unique..DUH! Just proves to me that they don't know sh** about the animals they are keeping. Having said that, I think its a good thing Stick is doing what he is doing and keeping a record of it. I'm doing the same thing with the S. maculaus and S. sanchezi within that menagerie of beasts. I already know the end results, just like I know what happens in nature. I also know there will always be others that think they are disproving something by attempting it. That's why I say again, the fishes will decide for you who is right and who is wrong. If you want pristine fish, keep the separate from their natural enemies. If you wish to try this piranha eco-system, then be forewarned the results are established by science and aquarists who have have tried for years.
> 
> *You couldn't have put it any better Frank. That is why I akways listen to what you, Wayne, and stick say. Your old website and continued info help me stay on top of the game. I couldn't say enough about what you have tought me in the last 13 years. Thanks and keep it commin. *


Thank you kind sir. I think it is important because I worry for hobbyists that buy fish. Some folks don't care, they have the money to blow and to them a fish is JUST A FISH, while a true hobbyists see's it different. I have some old photos of Wayne's where he mixed species. All this goes back way before the year 2000. Wayne was/is a pioneer on some of this mixing stuff. And he also lost some beautiful fish. Elongatus (Matt) is another one with horrid stories of loss.

You get these young kids (actually adults) with a couple of years experience, they do think they are doing something that no one has tried before. I recall talking with Scott Dowd of the New England Aquarium and the losses they suffered over trying to keep Serrasalmus species with Pygocentrus. And those are over 1,000g aquarios. I know full well that Stick has no illusions about his tank. That's why I support what he is doing. He's not trying to re-invent the wheel.







And that is to his credit.


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## x-drugy (Jan 19, 2005)

Thank you kind sir. I think it is important because I worry for hobbyists that buy fish. Some folks don't care, they have the money to blow and to them a fish is JUST A FISH, while a true hobbyists see's it different. I have some old photos of Wayne's where he mixed species. All this goes back way before the year 2000. Wayne was/is a pioneer on some of this mixing stuff. And he also lost some beautiful fish. Elongatus (Matt) is another one with horrid stories of loss.

You get these young kids (actually adults) with a couple of years experience, they do think they are doing something that no one has tried before. I recall talking with Scott Dowd of the New England Aquarium and the losses they suffered over trying to keep Serrasalmus species with Pygocentrus. And those are over 1,000g aquarios. I know full well that Stick has no illusions about his tank. That's why I support what he is doing. He's not trying to re-invent the wheel. And that is to his credit.

I agree with you frank. About 13 years ago I started reading everything you wrote about piranhas but rarely responed to your comments because I knew I was not on the same level or even close. I met wayne over the internet and we talked almost every day. I don't hear from him as much anymore but he sent me pictures and always kept me updated on his mixing expiriment. If it wasn't for you two I wouldn't know sh*t about piranhas. After reading your info I have owned all three species of pygos and 5 different serrasalmus species. At one time stick and I liven together and we had 8 aquariums in our house. Every one had a piranha in it and I picked my species based on what you have written and wayne has told me. I was just hoping that maybe sticks expiriment maybe have been something different that's all. But when you or wayne gives advice I pretty much bank on it. I just thought we could maybe give you some new info in return. But you pretty much know what is going to happen anyway. Stick and I can smell it already. So thanks again for the kind info and your mature fashion of dealing with discussions.

Scott


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Just for your knowledge, Wayne sought me out back in the early 90's through TFH. It was Wayne that convinced me to "go on line" and eventually appear on National Geographic. At that time, it wasn't my cup of tea, prefering to just help people via phone calls and letters. Wayne wrote piranha articles on fishes for Aquaria Central and from a historical point of view, they didn't differ much from "old explorers" and how they viewed piranhas. Yet, it was fascinating writing because he managed to take the enthusiasm he felt for his fishes and do something difficult and that is express it in words. Though much of it was inaccurate, it was still to his credit he managed to get many people interested in the hobby. I never regretted coming on line or creating the web site. Its fascinating to see how much has changed and people's attitudes. Though we have a few rough neck's out there. But even those folks eventually come around to acknowledging the science though they hate to admit it.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

More fun photos, this time S. maculatus and sanchezi fighting for a bit of fins. Including S. sanchezi vs. P. cariba, including a tail slap.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

And for GG who likes these top views.


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## oscarfish (Mar 1, 2004)

x-drugy said:


> O.k. I think we get the picture that serras can't and won't shoal together without a loss. However I do think that serras can shoal with pygos given enough tank space. I have owned piranhas for 13 years. In the begining I made the same mistake by mixing serras and obviously suffered a loss. Keep in mind that I did this in a 55 gal. Of course it isn't going to work. Yes I consider Frank one of the gurus of piranha owning but I also consider Wayne Mah and Stick's word as gospel. Wayne Mah tought me in my early years and was responsible for getting me to be one of the first few piraya owners in the country. I payed 300 bucks for a 2" piraya 10 years ago. But it was worth it. Thanks to Wayne. But now I draw my attention towards Stick. Have you been reading his posts? He is my best friend but he has owned piranhas for 18 years and got me into the hobby. By reading his posts you can tell he is highly intelligent and studies his piranhas and the social structure of his tank like a college exam. You tell me how many people on this board have a 750 gal tank filled with 20+ piranhas. You also tell me how many people can grow a ternetzi from dime size to 13" in a year and a half. Don't believe it, I picked the little guys up from the airport for him. He knows how to care for and grow quality fish like no other. A 2" piraya to almost 12" in a year and a half. Yeah he did that too. I saw it. So getting back to the mixing of species. I bought stick an 8" brandti from serrapygo for his bday 2 months ago. At first fin nipping was occurring but not bad. As time progressed he began to act more like a pygo and gets in on the feeding frenzies stuffing himslef full by bitting off huge chunks of bluegills and running off with them so the pygos couldn't get any. Point is maybe species can coexist but I think they need the space and I am talking like at least 750 gal. If people question the mixing question stay tunned to sticks posts. You will find his info extremely accurate and intelligent. As far as I am concerned our 3 gurus on this board are Frank, Wayne, and Stick (oh yeah and knifeman too but I am not heard from him in a while) You pick who you think knows the most but I will always stick with stick.
> [snapback]931146[/snapback]​


X-drugy- you truely are one of the most annoying person on p-fury that i have ever seen. the way you keep talking about stick. stick this, stick that. I bet that you are stick himself. i don't come on p fury too much but everytime i come on, i see ur post about stick. either ur stick himself or ur sucking stick's dick.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> oscarfish Posted Today, 07:15 PM
> QUOTE(x-drugy @ Mar 13 2005, 05:24 AM)
> O.k. I think we get the picture that serras can't and won't shoal together without a loss. However I do think that serras can shoal with pygos given enough tank space. I have owned piranhas for 13 years. In the begining I made the same mistake by mixing serras and obviously suffered a loss. Keep in mind that I did this in a 55 gal. Of course it isn't going to work. Yes I consider Frank one of the gurus of piranha owning but I also consider Wayne Mah and Stick's word as gospel. Wayne Mah tought me in my early years and was responsible for getting me to be one of the first few piraya owners in the country. I payed 300 bucks for a 2" piraya 10 years ago. But it was worth it. Thanks to Wayne. But now I draw my attention towards Stick. Have you been reading his posts? He is my best friend but he has owned piranhas for 18 years and got me into the hobby. By reading his posts you can tell he is highly intelligent and studies his piranhas and the social structure of his tank like a college exam. You tell me how many people on this board have a 750 gal tank filled with 20+ piranhas. You also tell me how many people can grow a ternetzi from dime size to 13" in a year and a half. Don't believe it, I picked the little guys up from the airport for him. He knows how to care for and grow quality fish like no other. A 2" piraya to almost 12" in a year and a half. Yeah he did that too. I saw it. So getting back to the mixing of species. I bought stick an 8" brandti from serrapygo for his bday 2 months ago. At first fin nipping was occurring but not bad. As time progressed he began to act more like a pygo and gets in on the feeding frenzies stuffing himslef full by bitting off huge chunks of bluegills and running off with them so the pygos couldn't get any. Point is maybe species can coexist but I think they need the space and I am talking like at least 750 gal. If people question the mixing question stay tunned to sticks posts. You will find his info extremely accurate and intelligent. As far as I am concerned our 3 gurus on this board are Frank, Wayne, and Stick (oh yeah and knifeman too but I am not heard from him in a while) You pick who you think knows the most but I will always stick with stick.
> 
> *X-drugy- you truely are one of the most annoying person on p-fury that i have ever seen. the way you keep talking about stick. stick this, stick that. I bet that you are stick himself. i don't come on p fury too much but everytime i come on, i see ur post about stick. either ur stick himself or ur XXXXXXXXXX *


Let's NOT derail my thread. You have personal issues with each other take it to PM. Otherwise, I'll use my magical fingers and begin editing words out like the above quote. Thanks for whatever its worth to you.


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## oscarfish (Mar 1, 2004)

hastatus said:


> > oscarfish Posted Today, 07:15 PM
> > QUOTE(x-drugy @ Mar 13 2005, 05:24 AM)
> > O.k. I think we get the picture that serras can't and won't shoal together without a loss. However I do think that serras can shoal with pygos given enough tank space. I have owned piranhas for 13 years. In the begining I made the same mistake by mixing serras and obviously suffered a loss. Keep in mind that I did this in a 55 gal. Of course it isn't going to work. Yes I consider Frank one of the gurus of piranha owning but I also consider Wayne Mah and Stick's word as gospel. Wayne Mah tought me in my early years and was responsible for getting me to be one of the first few piraya owners in the country. I payed 300 bucks for a 2" piraya 10 years ago. But it was worth it. Thanks to Wayne. But now I draw my attention towards Stick. Have you been reading his posts? He is my best friend but he has owned piranhas for 18 years and got me into the hobby. By reading his posts you can tell he is highly intelligent and studies his piranhas and the social structure of his tank like a college exam. You tell me how many people on this board have a 750 gal tank filled with 20+ piranhas. You also tell me how many people can grow a ternetzi from dime size to 13" in a year and a half. Don't believe it, I picked the little guys up from the airport for him. He knows how to care for and grow quality fish like no other. A 2" piraya to almost 12" in a year and a half. Yeah he did that too. I saw it. So getting back to the mixing of species. I bought stick an 8" brandti from serrapygo for his bday 2 months ago. At first fin nipping was occurring but not bad. As time progressed he began to act more like a pygo and gets in on the feeding frenzies stuffing himslef full by bitting off huge chunks of bluegills and running off with them so the pygos couldn't get any. Point is maybe species can coexist but I think they need the space and I am talking like at least 750 gal. If people question the mixing question stay tunned to sticks posts. You will find his info extremely accurate and intelligent. As far as I am concerned our 3 gurus on this board are Frank, Wayne, and Stick (oh yeah and knifeman too but I am not heard from him in a while) You pick who you think knows the most but I will always stick with stick.
> >
> ...


Sorry hastatus,
it just gets annoying that every post that i've seen of his is about stick...stick...stick and he says he's been keeping piranhas for over 13 years







and he still doesn't know that serrasalmus wont live with pygocentrus. I find that laughable. why try to prove something that science has already proved that wont work. 
Sorry, i'll stay out of this topic from now on.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

What you read, is not what I read at least I don't view it as you are reading it. No biggie. The important thing is the message about "cohabitating p's" needs to be addressed in the proper perspective before newbies damage their new pets. The thing with science is not proving things. I leave that to those that live in a fantasy world of egotism.







Anyway, don't back out of the thread. If you have anything of value (in your own experience) then by all means share. I think its good that these things about cohab are discussed civily.


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## oscarfish (Mar 1, 2004)

hastatus said:


> What you read, is not what I read at least I don't view it as you are reading it. No biggie. The important thing is the message about "cohabitating p's" needs to be addressed in the proper perspective before newbies damage their new pets. The thing with science is not proving things. I leave that to those that live in a fantasy world of egotism.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sorry, I don't have any personal experience with keeping serrasalmus together, but I do know someone on here who keeps serrasalmus spilopleura together and have had some luck but hes always telling me that its not a good idea. i was looking at his p's for a while and they were constantly fighting, not something i want my fish to be doing all the time.


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## Dr Exum (Nov 6, 2004)

that pond is awesome









nice work, good luck with your experiment









just outta curiousity.........

what is the biggest tank or pond you have there and how many tanks do you have?

thanks Frank,


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I try to avoid work as much as possible since closing down OPEFE. The 150g Ag tub is the biggest, though I'm buying a 300g in the next month or so. As far as glass aquario's go my current "largest" tank is a 125g. I have about 12 aquariums going, down from over 200 tanks in my old OPEFE days.


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## x-drugy (Jan 19, 2005)

Oscarfish,

I see you are quite the little smart ass too. The reason I talk about stick so much is because he has kept piranhas for 18 years and is very knowlegeable not to mention a 750 gal tank. Bet you don't have one. That's why we saw the expiriment as a possiblilty. I have tried the expiriment in a 210 and obviously falied. I believe Frank when he says it most likely won't work but I thought that nobody has tried it in a tank of such size before. That is all I stated. My personal opinion is that I have learned the most throughout my 13 year career from Frank, Wayne and Stick. The reason I go on about stick so much is that he is my best friend and we are trying the expiriment together. For you to say that I want to suck his dick just shows me tha you are on the same intelligent level as Mr. Harley. I know that the mixing of species doesn't work because I have been listening to Wayne and Frank for the last 13 years. I was very good friends with Wayne. I was on this board since it started my loggen in under many different user names due to changin jobs. The only reason I thought it was worth another try is because of the size of the tank stick has. I thought the info would be informative to this board. I would love to meet you in person. I could snap you in half like a twig but I would prefer to beat you up on pure intelect alone. I am far more advanced in piranha owning and smarts than you are. Sorry Frank for all of these rude comments. I just thought that our little expiriment could give some new info to this board. Hopefully it still does. I have learned so much from you and I thought that maybe stick and I could give you some in return for a change. BTW sorry about the hasty posts. I just get annoed when immature people make such rude comments when I din't come at them in the least. Nobody on this board deserves those types of comments. We are here to learn and I just thought we would help.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I hope both of you are now done and we can move on with what really is important and that is this test.









From a hobbyists side of the house, not everyone can afford monster tanks. The best venue to try these type tests (I won't call them experiments) is large ponds which approximate the natural arena. Public aquariums which have the monster displays have better luck, but even they report mortalities between Serrasalmus species. Its just in the beasts nature to disappoint people.


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## oscarfish (Mar 1, 2004)

x-drugy said:


> Oscarfish,
> 
> I see you are quite the little smart ass too. The reason I talk about stick so much is because he has kept piranhas for 18 years and is very knowlegeable not to mention a 750 gal tank. Bet you don't have one. That's why we saw the expiriment as a possiblilty. I have tried the expiriment in a 210 and obviously falied. I believe Frank when he says it most likely won't work but I thought that nobody has tried it in a tank of such size before. That is all I stated. My personal opinion is that I have learned the most throughout my 13 year career from Frank, Wayne and Stick. The reason I go on about stick so much is that he is my best friend and we are trying the expiriment together. For you to say that I want to suck his dick just shows me tha you are on the same intelligent level as Mr. Harley. I know that the mixing of species doesn't work because I have been listening to Wayne and Frank for the last 13 years. I was very good friends with Wayne. I was on this board since it started my loggen in under many different user names due to changin jobs. The only reason I thought it was worth another try is because of the size of the tank stick has. I thought the info would be informative to this board. I would love to meet you in person. I could snap you in half like a twig but I would prefer to beat you up on pure intelect alone. I am far more advanced in piranha owning and smarts than you are. Sorry Frank for all of these rude comments. I just thought that our little expiriment could give some new info to this board. Hopefully it still does. I have learned so much from you and I thought that maybe stick and I could give you some in return for a change. BTW sorry about the hasty posts. I just get annoed when immature people make such rude comments when I din't come at them in the least. Nobody on this board deserves those types of comments. We are here to learn and I just thought we would help.
> [snapback]940753[/snapback]​


OMG, i'm scared. when people start making physical threats, that's when you know they are scared little fucks with a small penis. Bring it on fool









Sorry hastatus for the derail. I'll take this to PM now


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## icedizzle (Feb 3, 2005)

hastatus said:


> And for GG who likes these top views.:laugh:
> [snapback]940347[/snapback]​


I'd have to be partial with GG on those top views, that is one cool picture. Keep up the good work Frank


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

New photos: S. sanchezi fighting and biting each other. S. sanchezi biting Pygo!


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## Death in #'s (Apr 29, 2003)

frank how do u heat and filter these tubs?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

The filter info is posted above in the thread with photos. The tub is unheated and stays in the approximity of 76F day to about 73-74F night. I have a heater ready (unpluged) if things get to cold in there, but so far so good.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Adding Driftwood and making it look more Amazonian......wait till I add the floating plants next month.







Also included is photo of another "larger" S. sanchezi swimming in the mix of Pygocentrus and S. maculatus.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

1 more view:


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## Gordeez (Sep 21, 2003)

Good Stuff Hoss


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## Grosse Gurke (Jan 3, 2003)

looking good big man!!


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## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)

> Mr. Harley,
> 
> My point is that this is an expiriment. There are no givens like frank has stated. I was just saying that people should stay tunned to sticks posts because most likely an expiriment in a tank of 750 or better hasn't been done. I don't try to act like I know everything about piranhas because I don't. All I have learned has been from reading franks old Oregon Piranha website and talking to Wayne ona daily basis not to mention stick. I can tell when I talk to frank, wayne or stick that I am dealing with a completely different intellect than yours. Hell i'd be suprised if you even have a college education. I'll save my comments and questions for more intelligent people on this board. As far as your word goes I will just turn the other way.


Well with a Name like X-Drugy and your talking to me about Education ? Ill spare you the intellectual beatdown that I have been giving you over the last week or so .
As stated if you know Wayne so well Why dont you ask him about me , I sure the "Very Respectable Person He is" can teach ya alittle something about respect, being in your old age, one might have thought you may have caught on by now .
If you must know and since you ask everybody if they have a 750 gallon tank even though you dont have jack sh*t ...
Here is a list of what I do with my time and my fish as a hobbyist , and why I can voice an opinion in this thread .
I do have (9) Pygos , in a 210 ranging from 13 inch to 9 inch (mostly Piraya)
I also got a geryi Group in a 135 ...
Another 135 with a 10 inch Manny ...
I got more shall I go








Here is a Link to back up my claims also , No need to flutter Franks thread up with my pics .
http://www.piranha-fury.com/photopost/show...500&ppuser=1620
So For you to say this and that .........pshhhh :laugh: .....
Just because you watch what stick does in his tank , dosent mean you know whats going on ...

Keep the Pics coming Frank


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> MR HARLEY Posted Today, 08:55 AM
> Well with a Name like X-Drugy and your talking to me about Education ? Ill spare you the intellectual beatdown that I have been giving you over the last week or so .
> As stated if you know Wayne so well Why dont you ask him about me , I sure the "Very Respectable Person He is" can teach ya alittle something about respect, being in your old age, one might have thought you may have caught on by now .
> If you must know and since you ask everybody if they have a 750 gallon tank even though you dont have jack sh*t ...
> ...


1. As I said, wouldn't both your comments be better handled via PM? or take it to the lounge. Hell PFURY even has a chat room, try there!

2. I hope this is the last reply between you 2 characters in my thread. I have patience and understanding, but its wearing very very thin.









3. Please stay ON TOPIC and that is my photos and pool scenes!


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## MR HARLEY (Aug 12, 2003)

Yeah I think I done .








Guess Im a Character now ...:laugh: Good stuff frank


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## remyo (Aug 26, 2004)

that,s just fuckt up RIP


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Since I created this pond (or pool) at the beginning of March, I thought by now the S. sanchezi and S. maculatus would be gone and eaten by Pygocentrus. Instead, I've had to remove the S. maculatus after it was severely bitten several times by the S. sanchezi. The fish is now recuperating and regenerating its bit to the stub fins. The only fishes that have suffered fin bites (as expected) have been the Pygocentrus and the S. sanchezi. Which suggests these critters are solitary. They spend the entire day (and sometimes night) chasing and biting each other. Even if one is across the other side of the pool. All it takes is for one of them to get close (there are 4 S. sanchezi in the tub now) and the chase begins. Most of the bites have been to the anal fin. Those can be fatal should the bites get into the organs. For the most part, the S. sanchezi are ignored by the larger Pygocentrus. However the smaller ones (6 inches more or less) chase after the S. sanchezi if they get to close. Here are some photos to include the anal fin damage. You can also see how close these fellows swim with Pygocentrus. When the smaller Pygocentrus enter the S. sanchezi territory (which is the rocks and some of the tree limbs) the sanchezi wastes no time in driving the fish off or getting a fin meal.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I should add here, the pool is 2 feet deep. The camera makes it look closer than it actually is.,


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## sccavee (Feb 11, 2003)

The little S. sanchezi are nastly little guys


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## Azeral (Dec 28, 2004)

Nice pool Frank.


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## Azeral (Dec 28, 2004)

MR HARLEY said:


> > Mr. Harley,
> >
> > My point is that this is an expiriment. There are no givens like frank has stated. I was just saying that people should stay tunned to sticks posts because most likely an expiriment in a tank of 750 or better hasn't been done. I don't try to act like I know everything about piranhas because I don't. All I have learned has been from reading franks old Oregon Piranha website and talking to Wayne ona daily basis not to mention stick. I can tell when I talk to frank, wayne or stick that I am dealing with a completely different intellect than yours. Hell i'd be suprised if you even have a college education. I'll save my comments and questions for more intelligent people on this board. As far as your word goes I will just turn the other way.
> 
> ...


Nice Piraya Mr.Harley


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## spec-v (Feb 27, 2005)

Very nice set up I am Hummbled


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I want to thank Dr.Zoidberg for reminding me to do this.







I put on some scuba gear and jumped into the tub to photograph this underwater scenes.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

More underwater photos.


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## NIKE (Jan 27, 2003)

awesome footage Frank


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Took these last night. It also shows how close these S. sanchezi stay with the Pygo's.


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

those underwater photos are great !!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks.


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