# Lake Of Fire



## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

If you guys get the chance, check this doc out - it's the best I've seen since Jesus Camp or The Corporation


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## philbert (Mar 8, 2007)

jesus camp is the scariest movie i've ever seen.

the corporation is biased. the sole reason a corporation exists is to make its share holders money. not to be this pious entity that is a model for public service.

I am looking for this one now.


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## Ibanez247 (Nov 9, 2006)

Fukn religion once again blah blah blah. I dont think I know anyone that is against abortion that isnt religious.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

What a person does to their body is non of my business however I dont agree with abortion. I think it's murder and hope that one day it is outlawed. I just dont understand how in this day in age with all the different pregnancy prevention out there that a woman can get pregnant and then resort to killing the child.

I just know to many females that use abortion as a pregnancy prevention. I know two girls that have had over 4 abortions and my sister-in-law who is 22 with 3 kids and no job and on welfare has had 5 abortions. God I hate that bitch!!!!!!


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## gjohnson1989 (Dec 19, 2010)

sadboy said:


> What a person does to their body is non of my business however I dont agree with abortion. I think it's murder and hope that one day it is outlawed. I just dont understand how in this day in age with all the different pregnancy prevention out there that a woman can get pregnant and then resort to killing the child.
> 
> I just know to many females that use abortion as a pregnancy prevention. I know two girls that have had over 4 abortions and my sister-in-law who is 22 with 3 kids and no job and on welfare has had 5 abortions. God I hate that bitch!!!!!!


agreed, sadboy! if you dont want kids, dont be sleeping around. if you want to have sex, accept the possible consequences. if you're not mature enough to be able to accept the possible child, then you're not mature enough to be having sex in the first place. imo, the only time an abortion should be allowed would be for rape victims.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

sadboy said:


> *What a person does to their body is non of my business* however I dont agree with abortion. *I think it's murder and hope that one day it is outlawed*. I just dont understand how in this day in age with all the different pregnancy prevention out there that a woman can get pregnant and then resort to killing the child.
> 
> I just know to many females that use abortion as a pregnancy prevention. I know two girls that have had over 4 abortions and my sister-in-law who is 22 with 3 kids and no job and on welfare has had 5 abortions. God I hate that bitch!!!!!!


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

i dont think abortion should be used as a contraceptive method. however accidental pregnancies do occur as does rape. if a woman or a couple are not ready for children then it is totally in their right to abort it. raising a child is a life long commitment and far to many people have children willy nilly.

just because you think abortion is wrong doesn't make it so. people who want or need it then they should be able to do it.


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## Guest (May 27, 2011)

gjohnson1989 said:


> What a person does to their body is non of my business however I dont agree with abortion. I think it's murder and hope that one day it is outlawed. I just dont understand how in this day in age with all the different pregnancy prevention out there that a woman can get pregnant and then resort to killing the child.
> 
> I just know to many females that use abortion as a pregnancy prevention. I know two girls that have had over 4 abortions and my sister-in-law who is 22 with 3 kids and no job and on welfare has had 5 abortions. God I hate that bitch!!!!!!


agreed, sadboy! if you dont want kids, dont be sleeping around. if you want to have sex, accept the possible consequences. if you're not mature enough to be able to accept the possible child, then you're not mature enough to be having sex in the first place.* imo, the only time an abortion should be allowed would be for rape victims*.
[/quote]

Exactly!! People need to be accountable for their actions. With all the birth control that is available nowadays there is no excuse. Condoms are free at the health clinics, the pills can be free through your doctor as well if you ask for sample packets. The only ppl who should be able to terminate are rape victims. If you can not afford the child you created there are MANY ppl out there that would love to adopt.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

All I know is that an abortion kills a fetus, that in some cases already has a beating human heart. Should be people be allowed to do what they want with their bodies, sure why not. But when your actions are affecting another live human is when those actions should not be allowed. Also a commented couple has no reason to get pregent unexpected, their are tons of pregnancy prevention items on the market. 
his M- abortion is being used as a contraceptive method. It's the sad truth about it. A lot of people on the welfare system have multiple abortions. I know this because I know a lot of people who are on welfare through my school. I am not saying only people on welfare have abortions but what I am saying that I know people on welfare who had more then one abortion.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

sadboy said:


> All I know is that an abortion kills a fetus, that in some cases already has a beating human heart. Should be people be allowed to do what they want with their bodies, sure why not. But when your actions are affecting another live human is when those actions should not be allowed. Also a commented couple has no reason to get pregent unexpected, their are tons of pregnancy prevention items on the market.
> his M- abortion is being used as a contraceptive method. It's the sad truth about it. A lot of people on the welfare system have multiple abortions. I know this because I know a lot of people who are on welfare through my school. I am not saying only people on welfare have abortions but what I am saying that I know people on welfare who had more then one abortion.


it is no business of ours to judge someone else. yes they are killing a foetus but one which is of no concern to you or to the world. its part of the women therefore hers to decide if she wants to bring it into the world or not.

and contraceptives are not 100% successful, people have been known to get pregnant while using them. small minority but it does happen.

and as for these people on welfare you speak about, they will make poor choices in life one after the other. if they couldn't abort legally they would do it in back street workshops or leave the baby in a ditch when its born. which is far worse in my opinion.

as i said before. it is the woman's choice to do as she wants when she falls pregnant. at the end of the day the issue concerns her more than anyone else and should be able to make the choice which best suits her.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

His Majesty said:


> All I know is that an abortion kills a fetus, that in some cases already has a beating human heart. Should be people be allowed to do what they want with their bodies, sure why not. But when your actions are affecting another live human is when those actions should not be allowed. Also a commented couple has no reason to get pregent unexpected, their are tons of pregnancy prevention items on the market.
> his M- abortion is being used as a contraceptive method. It's the sad truth about it. A lot of people on the welfare system have multiple abortions. I know this because I know a lot of people who are on welfare through my school. I am not saying only people on welfare have abortions but what I am saying that I know people on welfare who had more then one abortion.


it is no business of ours to judge someone else. yes they are killing a foetus but one which is of no concern to you or to the world. its part of the women therefore hers to decide if she wants to bring it into the world or not.

and contraceptives are not 100% successful, people have been known to get pregnant while using them. small minority but it does happen.

and as for these people on welfare you speak about, they will make poor choices in life one after the other. if they couldn't abort legally they would do it in back street workshops or leave the baby in a ditch when its born. which is far worse in my opinion.

as i said before. it is the woman's choice to do as she wants when she falls pregnant. at the end of the day the issue concerns her more than anyone else and should be able to make the choice which best suits her.
[/quote]

You right it's none of my business. But you think it's right for a person to have more then 3, 4, 5,6, or???

your right it's her choice and I dont agree with it. One day it will be outlawed and I hope it done within my lifetime. All it's gonna take is for some doctor to be able to make a artificial womb to allow a fetus to grow outside of the body for abortion to be illegal. And guess what it looks like some doctors are working on it.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

what difference does it make if a person has 1 or 6 abortions?

also even if you can grow the foetus outside the body how will that make abortion illegal? people abort because they dont want the child. not because they dont want to carry it around for 9 months. although growing the child outside of the body is great, takes away the stresses of child bearing and is alot easier on the body(things will stay tight and stretch mark free), which im sure many women (and men) will be delighted about.

also making it illegal doesn't eradicate abortion. just means people will do it illegally in a backstreet somewhere. like drugs.


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## gjohnson1989 (Dec 19, 2010)

His Majesty said:


> what difference does it make if a person has 1 or 6 abortions?
> 
> also even if you can grow the foetus outside the body how will that make abortion illegal? people abort because they dont want the child. not because they dont want to carry it around for 9 months. although growing the child outside of the body is great, takes away the stresses of child bearing and is alot easier on the body(things will stay tight and stretch mark free), which im sure many women (and men) will be delighted about.
> 
> also making it illegal doesn't eradicate abortion. just means people will do it illegally in a backstreet somewhere. like drugs.


i agree with your take on people going to do it illegally if it is outlawed. it just seems moronic to me that people who know damn well they are not suited for parent hood continue to make the same stupid mistakes over and over. if you're not parent material, don't be sleeping around. that's just being plain irresponsible.

and i think sadboy's point on 1 or 6 abortions is that it's proving that these people who are making the same decisions over and over which are ultimately killing living beings is proving the fact that these people don't have any sense of responsibility. they keep having sex, getting pregnant, and have more abortions. it's just plain immature.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

the world is filled with stupid people. its called the general public. stupid people will do stupid things again and again. no amount of education, legislation or laws will fix that.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

His Majesty said:


> what difference does it make if a person has 1 or 6 abortions?
> 
> also even if you can grow the foetus outside the body how will that make abortion illegal? people abort because they dont want the child. not because they dont want to carry it around for 9 months. although growing the child outside of the body is great, takes away the stresses of child bearing and is alot easier on the body(things will stay tight and stretch mark free), which im sure many women (and men) will be delighted about.
> 
> also making it illegal doesn't eradicate abortion. just means people will do it illegally in a backstreet somewhere. like drugs.


it would start it because the argument that a fetus can not survive outside of the woman's womb would be null and void. And the law would have to be looked at again.

No difference between 1 or 6 to me, just pointing out that abortion is being used as a birth control.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

sadboy said:


> what difference does it make if a person has 1 or 6 abortions?
> 
> also even if you can grow the foetus outside the body how will that make abortion illegal? people abort because they dont want the child. not because they dont want to carry it around for 9 months. although growing the child outside of the body is great, takes away the stresses of child bearing and is alot easier on the body(things will stay tight and stretch mark free), which im sure many women (and men) will be delighted about.
> 
> also making it illegal doesn't eradicate abortion. just means people will do it illegally in a backstreet somewhere. like drugs.


*it would start it because the argument that a fetus can not survive outside of the woman's womb would be null and void. And the law would have to be looked at again.*

No difference between 1 or 6 to me, just pointing out that abortion is being used as a birth control.
[/quote]

i dont understand what your trying to say here. no one said the fetus cant survive outside the woman's womb.


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

Free country... abort as many as you want, just as long as it's early. Keep your personal opinions off of other people's bodies.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

His Majesty said:


> what difference does it make if a person has 1 or 6 abortions?
> 
> also even if you can grow the foetus outside the body how will that make abortion illegal? people abort because they dont want the child. not because they dont want to carry it around for 9 months. although growing the child outside of the body is great, takes away the stresses of child bearing and is alot easier on the body(things will stay tight and stretch mark free), which im sure many women (and men) will be delighted about.
> 
> also making it illegal doesn't eradicate abortion. just means people will do it illegally in a backstreet somewhere. like drugs.


*it would start it because the argument that a fetus can not survive outside of the woman's womb would be null and void. And the law would have to be looked at again.*

No difference between 1 or 6 to me, just pointing out that abortion is being used as a birth control.
[/quote]

i dont understand what your trying to say here. no one said the fetus cant survive outside the woman's womb.
[/quote]

no one said that, I am saying that. The pro-choice camp use that as the reason why a woman should have the right to abort since the fetus could not survive outside the womb,.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

I don't understand how that's an argument at all.

Anyway as boobah said. A woman should have the choice to do as she sees fit regardless of anyones personnal beleifs. People need to stop telling others what to do. Live your life as you please. Leave others alone


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## gjohnson1989 (Dec 19, 2010)

His Majesty said:


> I don't understand how that's an argument at all.
> 
> Anyway as boobah said. A woman should have the choice to do as she sees fit regardless of anyones personnal beleifs. People need to stop telling others what to do. Live your life as you please. Leave others alone


i dont understand why you can state your opinion, but opposers to your opinion are wrong and need to stop stating their own opinions. so you're right and we're wrong?


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

One of the reasons why abortion is legal in the states is because the fetus could not survive outside of the woman's womb. If doctors cant make a fetus survive outside of the woman's womb then the law would have to be looked at again.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

My opinion is not for or against abortion. I'm saying that you cannot go around saying abortion is wrong and expect them not to do it. Your beleifs are different to others, and people should be allowed to do as they please.

By all means vice your opinion. Its your right and I'm not saying you can't. But you want abortion to be outlawed to fit with your beleifs. It is not your place to say what people should or should not do.

I understand your against it, I even understand why. but your opinion should not be imposed on another. which is what you want


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Your right 100% I believe in the law and so long as it's legal then I will not call someone a murder or anything. however I can hope for it to be outlawed.....


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

sadboy said:


> *All I know is that an abortion kills a fetus, that in some cases already has a beating human heart. Should be people be allowed to do what they want with their bodies, sure why not. But when your actions are affecting another live human is when those actions should not be allowed. *Also a commented couple has no reason to get pregent unexpected, their are tons of pregnancy prevention items on the market.
> his M- abortion is being used as a contraceptive method. It's the sad truth about it. A lot of people on the welfare system have multiple abortions. I know this because I know a lot of people who are on welfare through my school. I am not saying only people on welfare have abortions but what I am saying that I know people on welfare who had more then one abortion.


What about war? What about the woman's life? Is her life not valuable, also? What about poverty? Should poverty be outlawed? Poverty kills more children than abortion, and just as with abortion, poverty in large could be reduced if people were more responsible and valued others lives.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

War is the result of failed diplomacy.
Poverty is the result of your actions or the actions of your government or lack of it.

That's a different ballgame.


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## gjohnson1989 (Dec 19, 2010)

His Majesty said:


> My opinion is not for or against abortion. I'm saying that you cannot go around saying abortion is wrong and expect them not to do it. Your beleifs are different to others, and people should be allowed to do as they please.
> 
> By all means vice your opinion. Its your right and I'm not saying you can't. But you want abortion to be outlawed to fit with your beleifs. It is not your place to say what people should or should not do.
> 
> I understand your against it, I even understand why. but your opinion should not be imposed on another. which is what you want


isn't that how laws are made? someone writes a bill that is their opinion and it either becomes law or it doesnt. the people that decide these things are deciding based on their beliefs.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

gjohnson1989 said:


> *War is the result of failed diplomacy*.
> Poverty is the result of your actions or the actions of your government or lack of it.
> 
> That's a different ballgame.


sometimes but more often that not its due to idiocy.


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## gjohnson1989 (Dec 19, 2010)

His Majesty said:


> *War is the result of failed diplomacy*.
> Poverty is the result of your actions or the actions of your government or lack of it.
> 
> That's a different ballgame.


sometimes but more often that not its due to idiocy.
[/quote]

so should all drugs be legal since it's that person's decision to harm their bodies? 
what about suicide? it is ok that's it legal since that person is only killing themself?


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

gjohnson1989 said:


> so should all drugs be legal since it's that person's decision to harm their bodies?
> what about suicide? it is ok that's it legal since that person is only killing themself?


Suicide is not illegal


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

making something illegal doesn't solve anything. people will do what they want regardless. and yes they should do as they want.

and making it legal is better. that way it can be regulated and the right help given to people to solve the under lying issues rather than driving the activity under ground making it worse


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## gjohnson1989 (Dec 19, 2010)

sadboy said:


> making something illegal doesn't solve anything. people will do what they want regardless. and yes they should do as they want.
> 
> and making it legal is better. that way it can be regulated and the right help given to people to solve the under lying issues rather than driving the activity under ground making it worse


ok i can understand that. i hear where you're coming from, man. i think these things just have no right answer, its definitely not black and white. i can understand and respect everyone's personal opinions and even see where you're coming from. IMO, abortion is so sticky. is it murder? it is not? who knows. im not doctor or scientist. just a catholic haha. so i have my beliefs. not saying their right by any means.

btw, i appreciate that this debate hasn't turned into a pissing match. much appreciated.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

it's not legal or illegal.... Sorry, I wasn't clear.


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## gjohnson1989 (Dec 19, 2010)

sadboy said:


> it's not legal or illegal.... Sorry, I wasn't clear.


 ok i gotcha. i just understand it as if its not clearly illegal, then it is legal. you won't go to jail for attempting suicide. only for a 72 hour hold in a hospital, and then it goes from there. you'd go to jail if you damaged property or hurt someone else in the process, though.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

I agree there is no right or wrong answer. And that's kind of the point, each person is allowed to make their own decision without having others force their beleifs onto them. Helping people rather than forcing them to do something is much better. But at the end of the day we are all our own person with our own esperinces, beleifs and feelings and should have the freedom to do as we please.


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## gjohnson1989 (Dec 19, 2010)

His Majesty said:


> I agree there is no right or wrong answer. And that's kind of the point, each person is allowed to make their own decision without having others force their beleifs onto them. Helping people rather than forcing them to do something is much better. But at the end of the day we are all our own person with our own esperinces, beleifs and feelings and should have the freedom to do as we please.


i can agree with the last sentence there, man.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

sadboy said:


> War is the result of failed diplomacy.
> Poverty is the result of your actions or the actions of your government or lack of it.
> 
> That's a different ballgame.


Is it, though? The prevailing arguement against abortion is that it is terminating a life for convenience - Not supporting humanitarian efforts can be argued under the exact same set of principles.






this is worth listening to.


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## gjohnson1989 (Dec 19, 2010)

10pointers said:


> War is the result of failed diplomacy.
> Poverty is the result of your actions or the actions of your government or lack of it.
> 
> That's a different ballgame.


Is it, though? The prevailing arguement against abortion is that it is terminating a life for convenience - Not supporting humanitarian efforts can be argued under the exact same set of principles.






this is worth listening to.
[/quote]

very interesting video. chomsky is a very cool dude and a great linguist i might add. he made huge contributions to the world of linguistics with his studies about universal grammar. very interesting stuff, sorry super


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## Boobah (Jan 25, 2005)

It's also a moot point these days. We are becoming more liberal as a nation, so it's never going to be illegal again.


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

I don't see a problem with abortion, it's a womens choice...I didn't read the whole thread as usual









If I have a wart growing on my foot it's mine and I have the right to have it burned or frozen tell it dies...Why? its on or in my body therefor it'ss mine to do with as I please.


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## gjohnson1989 (Dec 19, 2010)

ZOSICK said:


> I don't see a problem with abortion, it's a womens choice...I didn't read the whole thread as usual
> 
> 
> 
> ...


your analogy is funny but you can't honestly say a wart is comparable to a human being.


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

Ibanez247 said:


> Fukn religion once again blah blah blah. I dont think I know anyone that is against abortion that isnt religious.


im not religious at all and i find abortion disgusting. 
i mean there isnt really a cut and dry magical great decision if you're talking about a baby born into poverty, abuse, being created from incest or rape, etc etc. but abortion, on its own merit, turns my stomach.

im aware that theres a counter point to every point i could make. im just making the general statement that i dont base any of my opinions on a religion because i am of no religion. i just see aborting an unwanted kid as "i wanted sex, THIS happened, i dont want it and therefor will not grow up and just throw it out"
its the ultimate act of laziness (excluding unique situations like my above mentioned)


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

gjohnson1989 said:


> I don't see a problem with abortion, it's a womens choice...I didn't read the whole thread as usual
> 
> 
> 
> ...


your analogy is funny but you can't honestly say a wart is comparable to a human being.
[/quote]

A wart is full of living human cells, which have as much potential for life as a human cell in a womb.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

What is a life? A heart beat or just a live cell?


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## gjohnson1989 (Dec 19, 2010)

10pointers said:


> I don't see a problem with abortion, it's a womens choice...I didn't read the whole thread as usual
> 
> 
> 
> ...


your analogy is funny but you can't honestly say a wart is comparable to a human being.
[/quote]

A wart is full of living human cells, which have as much potential for life as a human cell in a womb.
[/quote]
im no scientist or doctor, but im going to go out on a limb and say that if a cell from a wart was implanted in a woman's womb that no baby would come out nine months later. just saying. so that argument has no merit what so ever


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

I've know one or 2 girls that have gone through some major mental problems after aborting their unborn child. I wonder if they make you talk to someone like a shrink before doing the deed.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

gjohnson1989 said:


> I don't see a problem with abortion, it's a womens choice...I didn't read the whole thread as usual
> 
> 
> 
> ...


your analogy is funny but you can't honestly say a wart is comparable to a human being.
[/quote]

A wart is full of living human cells, which have as much potential for life as a human cell in a womb.
[/quote]
im no scientist or doctor, but im going to go out on a limb and say that if a cell from a wart was implanted in a woman's womb that no baby would come out nine months later. just saying. so that argument has no merit what so ever
[/quote]

In a labratory it could. What difference does it make, isn't life of all kind "precious"?


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## gjohnson1989 (Dec 19, 2010)

10pointers said:


> I don't see a problem with abortion, it's a womens choice...I didn't read the whole thread as usual
> 
> 
> 
> ...


your analogy is funny but you can't honestly say a wart is comparable to a human being.
[/quote]

A wart is full of living human cells, which have as much potential for life as a human cell in a womb.
[/quote]
im no scientist or doctor, but im going to go out on a limb and say that if a cell from a wart was implanted in a woman's womb that no baby would come out nine months later. just saying. so that argument has no merit what so ever
[/quote]

In a labratory it could. What difference does it make, isn't life of all kind "precious"?
[/quote]

please enlighten me on how that would work. anyway, i never said all kind of life is precious. im not some self-righteous pro-life asshole. i just think people who use abortion as birth control are idiots and shouldn't even be allowed the opportunity to have sex in the first place. its just idiocy with all the options available to people today. there are plenty of implants available to women that damn near rid every possibility of an unwanted pregnancy and throw that in with the proper use of a condom, no one should be getting pregnant who doesn't want to. and if you can't afford all that stuff (its not that expensive, cheaper than multiple abortions i'd imagine) little alone another being, then you shouldn't be (pardon my french) f*cking around. someone stated above that the population as a whole is stupid ( not word for word there) well then, that part of the population shouldn't be having sex. be a damn adult and either dont be sleeping around or have the child and be a f*cking parent.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

I never called you a prolife asshole, and I doubt they could use those cells to create anything now. I should have said in the future, they might be able to. This was part of Chomsky's argument, not my own, I just agree with him.


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## gjohnson1989 (Dec 19, 2010)

10pointers said:


> I never called you a prolife asshole, and I doubt they could use those cells to create anything now. I should have said in the future, they might be able to. This was part of Chomsky's argument, not my own, I just agree with him.


alright, it just seemed a little sarcastic with the "precious" comment. my bad, man.

chomsky is the man.


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## Guest (May 28, 2011)

You can't outlaw abortion, it's the womans right to choose whether she has a child or not.

People are forgetting safe sex can lead to pregnancy, there are plenty of cases out there where it has happened. You can't force people not to have recreational sex or to say who is able to bare a child and not.

What about a doctor who says the child would be born with severe life altering defects and wouldn't live past a few months and during that time spend every second of its short life in pain? Or if the family is told it would be a complicated birth and more then likely lead to death of the mother and possibly the child? These things happen everyday, and what those people involved decide to do is their choice and their choice alone, you, me and everyone else has no right to decide what those people involved choose to do. If abortion is outlawed more suffering would be caused to those directly involved as choices available to them are reduced, and those that voted for it wouldn't be affected either way, so what's the problem?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

I have heard of people offering free ultrasound imaging outside of abortion clinics.

90% of women who see what's in there don't go through with the abortion.

I think that is a decent way of dealing with the issue, but those machines are quite expensive.
No argument or discussion, just a free image of their baby does the trick.
6 week old fetus--

Go ahead, do what you want, but just don't believe your own lie that it isn't a human being..


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Looks like a human being to me.... And all it wants is to live.
Sure everyone has the right to do what they want with there body. How those actions are effecting a another lifeform.

Like I said, it's only a matter a time and doctors will say, a fetus can survive outside the womb and in a artificial womb. Once that happens, Roe vs Wade is going back to courts.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

sadboy said:


> *Looks like a human being to me....* And all it wants is to live.
> Sure everyone has the right to do what they want with there body. How those actions are effecting a another lifeform.
> 
> Like I said, it's only a matter a time and doctors will say, a fetus can survive outside the womb and in a artificial womb. Once that happens, Roe vs Wade is going back to courts.


I can't see anyone arguing with the bold statement you made right there.

It IS a human being, and really, that is the end of the argument.

If you abort, at least come to the conclusion that you are ending a human life, don't try and hide behind some lame lie that it isn't alive or anything, that is just ridiculous.

The picture is of a 6 week old fetus.. Most abortions take place way beyond that, and the picture clearly shows a human life developing in the womb waiting for the day to be born


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

I hear you man. I hate it when someone says it's not alive. It's alive and realize that you just ended the life of something that is apart you. 
So long as it is legal people will still do it, but one day it will be outlawed. I am sure of it.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

I have a personal friend who is blind, and his wife has multiple sclerosis.

They were told EVERY time they were going to have a baby that it was going to be deformed and sick.
The doctor told them to abort every pregnancy they had.
They never listened to their doctors, and had them anyway, because they wanted a family.

They now have 3 beautiful children, with no problems whatsoever. None of them are blind, OR have MS.

And their youngest is 14.

Moral of the story:

Just because someone has a degree on their wall doesn't make them right all the time. Period.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Kind of reminds me of the movie Gattaca.


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## Guest (May 28, 2011)

Not right all the time, but a decent amount of it.
You never touched on the second point though, complicated birth.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

What do you mean by a complicated birth? I ask because I have three kids and the term was used loosely by doctors once.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Traveller said:


> *Not right all the time, but a decent amount of it.*
> You never touched on the second point though, complicated birth.


Sure, and so are blind people with no doctor degrees.

He made a much wiser decision than the doc's advice.

In those cases, every time. Seems like people are abortion happy these days.
Not sure, abort!

???


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## Guest (May 28, 2011)

Complications during and following the birth. Not all women are able to give birth and live to hold the child afterward. If abortion is outlawed, these women will be forced to go through with a birth that may lead to their death. Whats worse, someone making a choice to save their life or not, or forcing someone to face the number game on whether they live or die?



DiPpY eGgS said:


> *Not right all the time, but a decent amount of it.*
> You never touched on the second point though, complicated birth.


Sure, and so are blind people with no doctor degrees.

He made a much wiser decision than the doc's advice.

In those cases, every time. Seems like people are abortion happy these days.
Not sure, abort!

???
[/quote]
Would you go to a blind person with no medical degree to correctly diagnose whether you had cancer or not?

Choice is the word here. Choice.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Yes, his choice was to have the baby despite what anyone told him.

Weather it be a doctor or not, and it was the right choice.

I have rejected what doctors told me before, and it turned out to be the right thing, let me tell you.

I was diagnosed once with a gum disease 10 years ago, and the doctor recommended pulling 11 of my teeth, and so I got a second opinion, at the local dental school, ran by the students of dentistry.

I still have ALL my original teeth, and am so glad I didn't take that doctors advice. They are all FINE

My choice not to listen to somebody that I didn't agree with. And I was right too.

My mother was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and we convinced her against her will to get the surgery.
It turned out that the mass was benign, and the surgery wasn't necessary.

She now has blood sugar issues because of the surgery.

I'm just saying you can't listen to what people (even the elite, and doctors) tell you all the time. They are not always right.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Traveller said:


> *Not right all the time, but a decent amount of it.*
> You never touched on the second point though, complicated birth.


Sure, and so are blind people with no doctor degrees.

He made a much wiser decision than the doc's advice.

In those cases, every time. Seems like people are abortion happy these days.
Not sure, abort!

???
[/quote]
Would you go to a blind person with no medical degree to correctly diagnose whether you had cancer or not?

Choice is the word here. Choice.
[/quote]

It's called life. Doctors are not always right. Many woman have died giving birth and doctors thought the girl was health and able to give birth. Happened to a friend of a friend. Thats what I was told. 
I dont believe in it. And I think it's wrong. I see it as murder as clear as day. But it's legal right now and I respect that and my opinion is that it is murder. 
Like I said, once doctors prove that a fetus could make it without the woman, then I hope the law will change.


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## Guest (May 28, 2011)

You had a choice. Whether it was the right choice or the wrong choice, you had options available.

If abortion is outlawed, those options are gone.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

We can go on forever with this. To me it's murder and I dont believe in murder. It's wrong.

The choice woman have is not to get pregnant. Their is a ton of different types of birth control on the market. And those things even in the USA are free.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

I agree with letting people do what they want with abortion at this point, because it is legal.

I just don't like to see people falling into the lie that their fetus is not a live human being, waiting to be born.
Admit you are killing your baby, and I would never argue with anyone about it.

Then at least you know 'in truth' what you are actually doing.

But seriously, pro-lifers have dealt with pro-choice laws for a long time. If the law overturned, would you let the law stand, or would you freak out and start riots?

We both have an argument, but we follow the law of the land in the end no matter if your opinion is shut down or not.

I only want to see civil arguments for or against, instead of violence about it.

Even if it is overturned.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

So true D.E.....
That is what bugs me the most when someone can not admit what they did was end a life.

People say, "It's the woman's body, and she should have the right to do what she wants!". Then why cant I go and buy drugs? Why is that not legal. Why cant I sell my organs for cash? I could go on and on. Just because something is legal does not make it right. I respect the law but in the end of the day, a woman is killing a unborn child.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

sadboy said:


> So true D.E.....
> That is what bugs me the most when someone can not admit what they did was end a life.
> 
> People say, "It's the woman's body, and she should have the right to do what she wants!". Then why cant I go and buy drugs? Why is that not legal. Why cant I sell my organs for cash? I could go on and on. Just because something is legal does not make it right. I respect the law but in the end of the day, a woman is killing a unborn child.


Why couldn't you go and kill someone if they wronged you?
I mean, they wronged you!

Why couldn't you kill someone you disagree with?

-where does it end?

If we can't even get to the place where people are accepting the truth about a fetus is a developing human being (with no voice) that deserves the right to life, what life is safe?

This is RACISM!! Racism against the unborn child I tell you!


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## Guest (May 28, 2011)

You have to have faith in humanity that people will make the right decision when given the choices. 
I'm not arguing for the right for prostitutes practicing unsafe sex to get abortions, everyone is equal and laws consider people equals. If the newly weds expecting their first child find out that there's possibilities of complications from more then one *expert*, they should have the right to choose what they do. Their options shouldn't be limited because of people living recklessly or because some people view it as murder. Forcing someone to face that situation should be considered murder as well.

Not to get off topic, but if drugs were legalized would you expect to see a rise in heroin addicts? Would you run out and purchase some crack cocaine simply because its legal? People are capable to make their own decisions, no one needs big brother dictating what they should do.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

I hear what you are saying.

These issues are complicated, and that is why we all need to act civilly towards each other, and realize that everyone in a free nation has the right to organize for or against an issue, *as long as the result doesn't inhibit anyone's liberty.*

You might say that *a woman's liberty is being taken away if she can't kill her baby*, but then you have to realize that* the baby's rights are non existent if his/her life was taken and no one had the baby's rights in mind*.

This is why this is such a heated argument.

The question needs to be asked: Which person's liberty is being taken away, the mother who wants the choice to kill her baby?

Or *is the baby in question's liberties being taken away?*

Clearly in my mind, the baby is always stripped of their liberty in every single abortion.
*The baby had no voice at all, and was unrepresented.*

It wasn't the baby's fault the mother and father acted in a manner that caused the baby to exist. 
Therefore, the baby wasn't at fault at all,* it was a result of the mother and fathers decision to do what clearly makes babies happen.*

So if you look at it this way, seriously, how can you blame the baby, and* make the baby pay for what 2 other people did?*

Hence, *the babies liberty is taken away*.

So, *pro-choice laws in my mind are dangerous for any liberty loving nation, because there clearly is a person, (a completely helpless person)
who has absolutely no liberty whatsoever, and is placed on death row for no fault of his/her own.*
That to me, is oppressive, disgusting, and barbaric, and leads down the path for other liberties to be stripped away.

Pretty soon after people believe that a baby deserves to die for what it's mother and father did, the* people start to not care about each other, and see each other as worthless, and meaningless, and won't bat an eyelash if someone is murdered for an opposing view.*


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

Well put brother.....
Those are very strong words and are straight to the point.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

i think its ridiculous to say that abortion leads to people being less civil to each other. there are plenty of countries where abortion is restricted and they are going around killing each other left and right over petty things.

as long as the baby is in the mothers womb it effects the mothers life more than anyone. it is her choice alone if she wants the child or not, for whatever reason. its her personal right.

and all these anti-abortion groups who attack clinics and bomb sh*t are the people who have no respect for life or others decisions.


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## wisco_pygo (Dec 9, 2009)

Ibanez247 said:


> Fukn religion once again blah blah blah. I dont think I know anyone that is against abortion that isnt religious.


I oppose abortion, not on religious grounds, but libertarian philosophy.

"One should never used a force or an act of aggression to bring about change in their life (abortion) or society (war), unless it is absolutely necessary."

A fetus is not a womans body, it is the body of a child, the same with an embryo. One can 'wrap' the situation in whatever kind of political language they choose. At the end of the day the fetus is alive, its human, it has rights. If one aborts a child, they have violated the rights of another human being, so has the 'doctor.' A lot of people make this assertion, "Well a fetus couldn't survive on its own...(blah blah blah)." Neither can a newborn baby genius. If we can't protect the most vulnerable among us, and refer to a woman killing a child as a 'choice' we're truly a sick society.

It amazes me how many leftist will rally for "Save the whales. Save the Plant. Save the Honeybees," and they'll turn around and advocate abortion. There are actually human beings on this planet who advocate saving bees and dolphins while at the same time advocating killing an innocent baby. Awesome.

/ends abortion rant


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> I have heard of people offering free ultrasound imaging outside of abortion clinics.
> 
> 90% of women who see what's in there don't go through with the abortion.
> 
> ...


That fetus is older than 6 weeks... I would guess it's at least 12 weeks along in that picture. At 6-8 weeks, the shape and features look nothing like that.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

His Majesty said:


> i think its ridiculous to say that abortion leads to people being less civil to each other. there are plenty of countries where abortion is restricted and they are going around killing each other left and right over petty things.
> 
> as long as the baby is in the mothers womb it effects the mothers life more than anyone. it is her choice alone if she wants the child or not, for whatever reason. its her personal right.
> 
> and all these anti-abortion groups who attack clinics and bomb sh*t are the people who have no respect for life or others decisions.


Abortion is a hot topic that can lead to and has lead to violent outcomes from both sides here in the states. Your right it's the mother's right to kill her unborn child because that is the law right now. But what some are saying is that the rights of the unborn are not being heard and their rights are being taken away as well.


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## Guest (May 28, 2011)

His Majesty said:


> all these anti-abortion groups who attack clinics and bomb sh*t *are the people who have no respect for life *or others decisions.


This statement made me chuckle. What about the rights of the unborn child? These anti-abort people DO have respect for life. Thats their point!!!! Though I do not agree with how some of them go about things.

Like I said previously, Abortion should only be allowed for women of rape or if the child is found to have a deformity/life threatening medical condition in utero.

It is not a form of birth control, if you have sex you need to be responsible for your actions and the possible outcome that you might get pregnant. If you can not afford or do not have the means to raise the child then give that child up for adoption. If that is also not an option.... then abstinence is another option.


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

its the woman's right regardless of the law. like drugs. im not for or against them but if someone wants to take it then let them.

law isnt there to prevent people from doing things. murder is against the law but people still commit it.

the law is there to punish people for doing something that socially is deemed wrong by the vast majority. such as murder, theft, rape etc these are the sort of things which most sane people deem wrong for obvious reasons.

but abortion is something that not everyone agrees on. its an extremely *personal choice*. like taking drugs. yes it affects some people around them. but it effects the person in question far more. it their life. therefore they should have the right to do so.

abortion in england is legal. but it doesnt cause anywhere near the amount of controversy as it does in america. because its a personal choice. if you want it then you can get one, if you dont then you dont. every one goes about their business no problem.



ksls said:


> all these anti-abortion groups who attack clinics and bomb sh*t *are the people who have no respect for life *or others decisions.


This statement made me chuckle. * What about the rights of the unborn child?* These anti-abort people DO have respect for life. Thats their point!!!! Though I do not agree with how some of them go about things.
[/quote]

i dont understand this point of view. the child is part of the mother. and until its born it is totally within the mothers right to decide its fate. my own mother always used to say that she was the one who brought me into this world and its her right to choose as she pleases if she has me or not.


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

People should not be allowed to have abortions unless its rape... they should have the kid and adopt it out to a responsible family... problem is most try to keep em and then you end up with fucked up kids and its a vicious cycle.


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## ZOSICK (May 25, 2005)

If it is in or on you...It's yours to do with as you please


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> I have heard of people offering free ultrasound imaging outside of abortion clinics.
> 
> 90% of women who see what's in there don't go through with the abortion.
> 
> ...


Do you have a source for the 90% statistic and could you provide any proof that this baby is 6 weeks?

According to pregnancy.org, this is a healthy 6-week old fetus:


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

wisco_pygo said:


> all these anti-abortion groups who attack clinics and bomb sh*t *are the people who have no respect for life *or others decisions.


This statement made me chuckle. What about the rights of the unborn child? These anti-abort people DO have respect for life. Thats their point!!!! Though I do not agree with how some of them go about things.

Like I said previously, Abortion should only be allowed for women of rape or if the child is found to have a deformity/life threatening medical condition in utero.

It is not a form of birth control, if you have sex you need to be responsible for your actions and the possible outcome that you might get pregnant. If you can not afford or do not have the means to raise the child then give that child up for adoption. If that is also not an option.... then abstinence is another option.
[/quote]

Is your point of view religious based?


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

I agree with ksls if you cant handle the chance of a connie breaking or you didnt pull out fast enough you should have to suffer the consequences, although at the same time i feel like the world is way overpopulated... i am very torn on the subject. Birth control FTW


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

bob351 said:


> I agree with ksls if you cant handle the chance of a connie breaking or you didnt pull out fast enough you should have to suffer the consequences, although at the same time i feel like the world is way overpopulated... i am very torn on the subject. Birth control FTW


Why should you have to suffer the consequences?

What about all those wasted potential lives you leave in a condom? Or all those wasted periods...those are potential lives being left to die...not all that different from a baby in a philisophical stance.


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

philosophy < biology

a sperm cell or egg has half the number of chromosomes to make a human... its not a wasted life. A wasted life is when the sperm gets to the egg and they start to multiply into a human being, that is a wasted life.


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## Guest (May 28, 2011)

This is a never ending debate. My opinion is if its outlawed your saying people are too dumb to make their own decissions, and those who face complications or those raped are forced to go through with the birth. If you have it legal for certain cases (Rape, deformity etc.) you will be creating more corruption in the medical sector as people will find ways to bribe to receive the papers necessary to abort the fetus.

As for the fetuses rights being infringed, a child isn't able to legally make decisions anyway, its the parent or guardian who makes them for the child. This whole thing is a slippery slope that will lead no where good IMO.


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

also i think if it was outlawed more people would take the rout of getting pushed down the stairs or a punch from kimbo slice to the ovaries

I am really on the fence with this one


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

You know what...... Both sides have good points but at the end of the day it still murder in it's purest form. A helpless being is being killed for selfless reasons.


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## Guest (May 28, 2011)

Selfish sadboy.

self·less
-adjective
having little or no concern for oneself, especially with regard to fame, position, money, etc.; unselfish.


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## sadboy (Jan 6, 2005)

me grammer no muy bueno....

I'm being honest..... But I kick ass at math!


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

sure you do


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

bob351 said:


> philosophy < biology
> 
> a sperm cell or egg has half the number of chromosomes to make a human... its not a wasted life. A wasted life is when the sperm gets to the egg and they start to multiply into a human being, that is a wasted life.


Yes but english > biology in this case, as I used the word potential. A sperm has potential to be life, does it have less than a 1st trimester fetus? Yes, but a 1st trimester fetus has less potential than a birthed bay too....if we are to use this scaloe of potential, why is your placement of "value of life" (aka conception) more meaningful than mine?


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## bob351 (Oct 23, 2005)

i have the potential to be anything i want to be will i be no.... potential mean jack sh*t


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

His Majesty said:


> *i think its ridiculous to say that abortion leads to people being less civil to each other.* there are plenty of countries where abortion is restricted and they are going around killing each other left and right over petty things.


Really? So a baby being murdered is civil?

Think of it like watching murderous movies over and over. The first movie, you get all scared, because it takes you off guard, and you are not used to seeing it. 
The second movie, you are still scared, but less moved by it, because you saw it before.
And by the time you see a dozen of these, you are cheering and fist pumping when the innocent gets stabbed to death.

I know it is hard for some to think this has an adverse effect on we human beings.
To the contrary, all you have to do is look at what people do when someone is lying on the ground, and they need help, to understand the effect--this is not covered adequately by what I have stated, but please, try to understand.

In Nazi Germany, jews were painted as the root cause to their problems. So calling them names in the street openly became accepted behavior.
Then it led to open beatings in the streets.
Then it led to gathering them up, and imprisoning them in a certain sect, and using them for slave labor.
Then openly killing them became the accepted norm.

It was just killing a rabid dog, or a worthless rat to them.

Let's learn from history, and give liberty to every individual to the best of our ability.
Even the unborn have the right to life, even if it isn't as good of a life as yours.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

His Majesty said:


> then *abstinence is another option.
> *


Man, this kind of simple truth just doesn't want to be heard much, (mostly by people who don't want to EVER think that they should *even consider* not getting laid for once)
but is the absolute best way to handle this in many circumstances.

Excellent quote.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

His Majesty said:


> i don't understand this point of view. the child is part of the mother. and until its born it is totally within the mothers right to decide its fate. my own mother always used to say that she was the one who brought me into this world and its her right to choose as she pleases if she has me or not.


It has a separate heartbeat, separate brain, separate hands, and separate everything from the mother.

It's a different life than the mothers. *I respect your mother*, especially for the 'choice' to 'let' you live.

But because she is your mother, does that me SHE is right about this subject?

And after reading some more comments on this subject, and realizing that we will never get anywhere, because lots of people will never care about any fetus' right to life and liberty, or care that their actions selfishly end lives....

/I kindly hop the fence on this thread


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## His Majesty (Apr 5, 2005)

i respect your views D.E
and yes this subject will never end.
just to be clear, i do understand your point of view. however i only stand on the side of the womans right for choice. and in my view her right trumps the babies, and it also trumps anyone else's opinion. even mine.

i beleive that humans are slowly moving towards a a place where we dont have to adhere to the bounds of nature and have more control over our own lives.

abortion does not *necessarily* mean a less civil society. take your film anology. it does not make people violent. i watch plenty of them. but i dont go round beating people or cheering on violent behaviour.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> I have heard of people offering free ultrasound imaging outside of abortion clinics.
> 
> 90% of women who see what's in there don't go through with the abortion.
> 
> ...


That fetus is older than 6 weeks... I would guess it's at least 12 weeks along in that picture. At 6-8 weeks, the shape and features look nothing like that.
[/quote]

Whatever week it is, does it matter? was it less a human being in one photo?
The photo is a very good quality zoomed in 3D ultrasound image.

No matter what you try to say, it still is a human baby
[/quote]

I'm not trying to get into a debate over abortion, I'm just saying that if people are going to be presented with an ultrasound picture of a fetus to show how developed it is and the human features that it already possesses at only 6 weeks -- which is still during the first trimester and when the overwhelming majority of abortions take place -- then a picture of an actual 6 week old fetus should be used, not a picture of a fetus that is already near the end of the second trimester or into the third, when abortions are incredibly rare. When pictures like that are used with false information tied to them, they are just stirring emotions rather than presenting facts.


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## Smoke (Sep 8, 2010)

I say if the baby daddy is broke, lose the fetus... If the baby daddy has some money, then go for it and milk him for the next 18 years for his mistake, ensuring to constantly remind the child of his/her reason for being born when being raised.

Or if another is willing to take the fetus off your hands, then go for it... for some $$$$ of course, don't want to just give it away for free.

Go pfury!


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

His Majesty said:


> I have heard of people offering free ultrasound imaging outside of abortion clinics.
> 
> 90% of women who see what's in there don't go through with the abortion.
> 
> ...


That fetus is older than 6 weeks... I would guess it's at least 12 weeks along in that picture. At 6-8 weeks, the shape and features look nothing like that.
[/quote]

Whatever week it is, does it matter? was it less a human being in one photo?
The photo is a very good quality zoomed in 3D ultrasound image.

No matter what you try to say, it still is a human baby
[/quote]

I'm not trying to get into a debate over abortion, I'm just saying that if people are going to be presented with an ultrasound picture of a fetus to show how developed it is and the human features that it already possesses at only 6 weeks -- which is still during the first trimester and when the overwhelming majority of abortions take place -- then a picture of an actual 6 week old fetus should be used, not a picture of a fetus that is already near the end of the second trimester or into the third, when abortions are incredibly rare. When pictures like that are used with false information tied to them, they are just stirring emotions rather than presenting facts.
[/quote]

The free ultrasound image that is used outside of some abortion clinics sometimes to show
What's cooking in there are real, live ultrasound images taken from the individual that is going into the clinic in real time, right before their appointments, so there is no illusions or deceptions at all.

It's optional as well, I mean they don't force you to do it, they just say, hey, you want a free ultrasound picture of what's in you?
That's it. 
And as I have stated, about 90% (roughly) don't go through with the abortion once they have seen the results.
I hope that doesn't piss you off of anything. It shouldn't.


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## JoeDizzleMPLS (Nov 5, 2007)

I wasn't referring to the live ultrasound images provided to pregnant women outside of some abortion clinics, I was talking about the use of an ultrasound picture of a fetus used during a debate on the issue to show how developed a fetus is at a certain point of the pregnancy and providing erroneous information about said picture. I just think that if you want to stir up emotion in people by showing them how developed a fetus is at 6-8 weeks (during the first trimester -- when most abortions take place), then show a picture of an actual 6 week old fetus. Showing a picture of a much older fetus and claiming it is only 6 weeks old in order to show people how "human-like" and developed they are already at only a few weeks is misleading.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

Dippy, you never responded to where you got your information from that states that 90% of women who see an ultrasound change their mind?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

10pointers said:


> I wasn't referring to the live ultrasound images provided to pregnant women outside of some abortion clinics, I was talking about the use of an ultrasound picture of a fetus used during a debate on the issue to show how developed a fetus is at a certain point of the pregnancy and providing erroneous information about said picture. I just think that if you want to stir up emotion in people by showing them how developed a fetus is at 6-8 weeks (during the first trimester -- when most abortions take place), then show a picture of an actual 6 week old fetus. Showing a picture of a much older fetus and claiming it is only 6 weeks old in order to show people how "human-like" and developed they are already at only a few weeks is misleading.


The picture is a 3D zoomed in state of the art ultrasound image at 6 weeks... That is what the picture said, I'm not here to argue with you, it's pointless

And I don't try to mislead people, all I do is tell you my opinion. Look the picture up yourself, I did a google search.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> I wasn't referring to the live ultrasound images provided to pregnant women outside of some abortion clinics, I was talking about the use of an ultrasound picture of a fetus used during a debate on the issue to show how developed a fetus is at a certain point of the pregnancy and providing erroneous information about said picture. I just think that if you want to stir up emotion in people by showing them how developed a fetus is at 6-8 weeks (during the first trimester -- when most abortions take place), then show a picture of an actual 6 week old fetus. Showing a picture of a much older fetus and claiming it is only 6 weeks old in order to show people how "human-like" and developed they are already at only a few weeks is misleading.


The picture is a 3D zoomed in state of the art ultrasound image at 6 weeks... That is what the picture said, I'm not here to argue with you, it's pointless

And I don't try to mislead people, all I do is tell you my opinion. Look the picture up yourself, I did a google search.
[/quote]

So then you can't provide any hard facts?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

I give up on you, there is no point going further with this.. lol
So I can't provide hard facts... lmao

The evidence is in front of your face, go do your own research, and make your own mind up.
Like I said, do a GOOGLE search, you can find the very image I posted easily enough, just search '6 week ultrasound picture' or something similar, I can't remember exactly the wordage I used.

Just do me one favor, don't get behind violent activity against pro-lifers if the laws ever change.


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

I have, I just prefer it when people don;t post arbitrary information as fact. It's as bad as lying. It's an affront to all of those who want to talk about a subject civilly and with integrity.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

10pointers said:


> I have, I just *prefer it when people don;t post arbitrary information as fact*. It's as bad as lying. It's an affront to all of those who want to talk about a subject civilly and with integrity.


I posted an image of what said to be a 6 week old fetus!!

What are you talking about?

Do the search for yourself! I don't have ultrasound images lying around the house so I can post them for you when you ask....

DO THE SEARCH YOURSELF and you will find the image of a 6 week old fetus, the very one I posted...

EDIT::

I tried to find the pic that I posted.. I can't find it lol

I wanted to make sure it was 6 weeks, but seriously, it doesn't take very long for a baby to develop in a mothers womb.

Here is a question for someone-

At what age do you think an unborn child would be loosing it's liberty if it was aborted?

Or at what age should an unborn child receive liberty, or the right to life?


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## JeanLucPicard (Nov 15, 2010)

Dippy you are skirting around my point. You are making claims with facts you can't find or source. Which means there is no logical component, hence your argument is completely moral and ethically based. And to believe your set of ethics are better than anyone else's is a matter of ego.



DiPpY eGgS said:


> I have, I just *prefer it when people don;t post arbitrary information as fact*. It's as bad as lying. It's an affront to all of those who want to talk about a subject civilly and with integrity.


I posted an image of what said to be a 6 week old fetus!!

What are you talking about?

Do the search for yourself! I don't have ultrasound images lying around the house so I can post them for you when you ask....

DO THE SEARCH YOURSELF and you will find the image of a 6 week old fetus, the very one I posted...

EDIT::

I tried to find the pic that I posted.. I can't find it lol

I wanted to make sure it was 6 weeks, but seriously, it doesn't take very long for a baby to develop in a mothers womb.

Here is a question for someone-

A*t what age do you think an unborn child would be loosing it's liberty if it was aborted?

Or at what age should an unborn child receive liberty, or the right to life?*
[/quote]

As for your questions:

1. An unborn child does not have liberty, as it is not a self-suistaining organism much like a sperm and an egg are given no liberty.

2. When it is born and no longer an organism depending soley on it's mother.

Abortion is largely a religious issue, specifically Christians and more specifically it seems, Catholics. I think what most people don't understand is that that Bible is old, and that some things in the Bible can be explained by looking at the pragmatic rewards of the so called truths: abortion would have been a horrible thing to condone thousands of years ago because there was a need for large families. 2 thousand years ago, a farm needed young men to work it. Children were economic neccesites for a community's growth and for prosperity. Times have changed. Abortion is an important tool in allowing people to control when they are ready to start a family.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

10pointers said:


> Dippy you are skirting around my point. You are making claims with facts you can't find or source. Which means there is no logical component, hence your argument is completely moral and ethically based.* And to believe your set of ethics are better than anyone else's is a matter of ego.*


Do you think you might be assuming things that you don't know for sure?

This is what always happens when people disagree. Someone assumes something that isn't true, and starts slinging mud..

Whatever you want to believe, I won't even try to change your mind, you are going to think what you want.
To you, I'm better than you I guess lol --Doesn't hurt me when you say that.
You have no idea what is in my head or heart, no matter how intelligent you may or may not be

All I'm saying is

At what point does a baby in a mothers womb deserve to be protected as an individual, with the same liberty that anyone else enjoys?

I didn't see the end of your post.

Eh, I guess I'm just a religious douche that doesn't deserve to live because I raise an argument that is clearly idiotic to you.

I won't mind dying, it won't be so bad. You have to die sometime anyway, you might as well get together with everyone who disagrees with people who don't see it your way, and gas their sorry butts into eternity!

lol

just kidding of course.

Human beings these days are viewed as a problem, because of there are so many problems in the world.
Most people believe that too many human beings on the planet are unsustainable, and create too many problems, but at the same time, it would be a horrible thing to rid the planet of the people that are here to make it sustainable.

The sad fact is there are so many tragedies that happen on a daily basis, such as abortions, accidents, wars, acts of violence, etc etc

I don't have all the answers man!

But let's all agree that NONE of us have all the answers! More tragedies, to me, isn't the answer either.

Let's admit it's a developing human being that is killed, and a developing human being to many many people is a beautiful thing that is a serious miracle!

I just don't think it's the answer. I respect the law though, so no need to get hostile


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

sadboy said:


> I hear you man. I hate it when someone says it's not alive. It's alive and realize that you just ended the life of something that is apart you.
> So long as it is legal people will still do it, but one day it will be outlawed. I am sure of it.


to this whole "when does a fetus become a human" debate i would offer this. a single cell in the whomb is already on an unstoppable path to becoming a new born baby. at the moment of conception is when a baby starts to form. most people need to see a heart beat or some "human like features" to be convinced of this. 
i believe that life starts at the moment of conception and not a moment later. its only later that you start to recognize features.


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## zippa (Apr 29, 2005)

Central said:


> I hear you man. I hate it when someone says it's not alive. It's alive and realize that you just ended the life of something that is apart you.
> So long as it is legal people will still do it, but one day it will be outlawed. I am sure of it.


to this whole "when does a fetus become a human" debate i would offer this. a single cell in the whomb is already *on an unstoppable path* to becoming a new born baby. at the moment of conception is when a baby starts to form. most people need to see a heart beat or some "human like features" to be convinced of this. 
i believe that life starts at the moment of conception and not a moment later. its only later that you start to recognize features.
[/quote]

Oh it is very stoppable.....


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## scent troll (Apr 4, 2005)

^^ well no kidding. but under the assumption to dont shove a vaccuum up there and stop it, life will take shape.


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## Guest (May 30, 2011)

You can stop it with a pill also.


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