# jesus



## jackburton (Nov 25, 2003)

how many of you peeps at p fury r proper church goers and are fully dedicated to your religion.and what religion is it and what do you have tpo do


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

i am a christan but only go to chruch every once in a while

i am not good at y religon rarely praying and doing right things but i beleive in God and fear him and love him


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## Scooby (Dec 25, 2003)

i am not a religious man, don't think i ever will be!!!


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2004)

I used to attend church regularly and even attended a few bible study classes.

A few years ago, I broke up with my girlfirend and moved to a different town. I didn't want to drive an hour to attend a church where I might see my ex-girlfriend with her new boyfriend (later husband), so I stopped going to that church.

With my new found freedom I rediscovered drinking on Saturday nights and lost my Sunday mornings. I never found another church to attend and sometimes I do miss it. One of these days I'm going to go back.


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## CraigStables (Oct 5, 2003)

I dont believe in any religion, so dont go to church, or anything like that!


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## BUBBA (Sep 4, 2003)

Try to go every Sunday.


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## cooldudectd (Mar 4, 2004)

Fully devoted to being a pure Atheist....

Hey, it's a religion, too.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

You know from most of the atheists Ive ever known, I think they were pretty funny. They'd claim they were atheist but as soon as a family member or someone they loved and cared about deeply ended up in a hospital in critcial condition or anything equally severe, they would suddenly change their mind and start believing in God. I never did understand that. Again, this is just with most atheist's Ive met..Im not saying all.

As for myself, Im a Lutheran Christian. I used to go to church every Sunday, but ended up stoping. I figured I could be just as good as any other Christian going to church. I dont feel I need to go to church in order to have the beliefs I do.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Yep...I pretty much go every Sunday. But I have to...it is part of my job. When I go on vacation, I usually don't step foot in a church.

I am a Pastor for an Evangelical Free Church that is in Northern Illinois.

Wonderful church, great music, great Pastoral staff here. There are about 600 people that attend, and the youth group has about 70-80 people depending on the Sunday.

As to what we "do", well...we really don't "do" anything for our faith. We believe the basic tennants like Lutheran, Baptist, non-denominational, and the such.

If you got any questions about what we believe, let me know and I will try to answer them...if I can!

Jeffrey

{{Edit - I am not your normal run of the mill "Pastor". I tend to be quite the realist when it comes to by beliefs and human nature}}


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## cabbycarny (Jun 30, 2003)

i use to go to church when i was young. since my dad passed away some years ago i stopped going. otherwise i still beleive in god and trust him to guide me in life. i went to a episcopal church.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> Hey, it's a religion, too.


buzzz....sorry try again.

is my lack of belief in pink-elephants a religion?

re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. 
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 
The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

atheism is the lack of belief in god(s), nothing more. one atheist can be completely different from the rest....the only thing in common is a lack of belief in gods, and also usually the supernatural, spirits, etc. from there on out you make your own beliefs.

there no books, churches, scriptures, leaders, clergy, specific set of morals, culture, etc. related to atheism.

it is not a religion, it is a disbelief.

that being said, my beliefs are atheistic, though i am not much for labels and the connotations that come with them.


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## traumatic (Jan 29, 2003)

hmmm, I was raised catholic. Attended catholic school k-1st grade. Then went to CCD (Catychism sp?) till 4th grade. Then I didn't attend church till around 99' when I attended a baptist church a few times. Then around 4 years ago I went to cornerstone baptist church to pray for my girlfriend (in a coma at the time). Now I go to a Free Methodist church where my girls' g-pa and uncle are pastors. I'm a fairly free thinker/god fearer.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

PastorJeff said:


> I am a Pastor for an Evangelical Free Church that is in Northern Illinois.


 Whats Evangelical Free mean?

I am a believer, and trying to get back into going to church and taking a more proactive stance on learning.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> You know from most of the atheists Ive ever known, I think they were pretty funny. They'd claim they were atheist but as soon as a family member or someone they loved and cared about deeply ended up in a hospital in critcial condition or anything equally severe, they would suddenly change their mind and start believing in God


they are called emotional atheists, and are not true atheists to begin with.

sort of like people who lose a loved one, and then "say" they are atheist out of anger towards their respective god......you cant be angry with someone you dont believe in now can you?

of course, the same can be said about most of the christians i have met who drink themselves stupid on the weekends, and then go slap $2 in the collection plate and talk to imaginary friends on sunday.....

atheism does not have a monopoly over hypocrites, though i agree that many are.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Xenon said:


> Whats Evangelical Free mean?
> 
> I am a believer, and trying to get back into going to church and taking a more proactive stance on learning.


 Here is a quick synopsis of what Evangelical Free is about...

The EFCA movement exists to glorify God by multiplying healthy churches among all people.

The Basics
The Evangelical Free Church of America is an association of some 1,300 autonomous churches united by a mutual commitment to serve our Lord Jesus Christ with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and obedience to the Word of God. We are committed to cooperate with one another in ministry and fellowship as we seek to fulfill the Great Commission which Christ has entrusted to His Church. The growing ministry of the EFCA currently extends to some 45 countries of the world.

What Does "Evangelical" Mean?
The term Evangelical refers to our commitment to the proclamation of the Gospel and to the authority of Scriptures as being inerrant in the original autographs and the only safe and sufficient guide to faith and practice.

What Does "Free" Mean?
The term Free refers to our form of church government as being congregational. Evangelical Free Churches depend upon the active participation of lay people in the decisions and directions. 
________________________________

We basically believe the basic tennants...

1. Jesus Christ was born from the Virgin Mary
2. He grew up to the age of 33 and died on the cross for the sins of mankind
3. Three days later he rose again from the dead in his physical form
4. Acended into heaven where He prepares a place for all those who believe
5. Jesus is God, part of the Trinity (our term...not the Bibles)

This is the foundational stuff, but there is so much more than that. This is the "Non-debatable" stuff...everything after this is pretty much open to interpretation. That is why there are so many different "faiths" based on one bible.

Here is the link for the Evangelical Free Church of America. Great denomination...Evangelical Free Church of America

Hope this helps!

Jeffrey


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## cooldudectd (Mar 4, 2004)

Ok, I stand corrected.

You sound a hell of alot more educated on the topic than me.

When I'm wrong I say I'm wrong.


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## fluidnyc (Oct 15, 2003)

100% Roman Catholic


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Puma said:


> of course, the same can be said about most of the christians i have met who drink themselves stupid on the weekends, and then go slap $2 in the collection plate and talk to imaginary friends on sunday


 Ouch!

This is the sad part of Christianity....those that claim to be one thing, and yet live another way. We all have growing to do, but this outright hypocracy drives me nuts...

Now keep in mind that I have no problem going into a bar, and I have no problem if one of my friends wants to have a drink (I don't drink, but it is NOT because of my beliefs).

I do have a problem if my friend wants to get completely crap-faced and puke in my car. That I have a problem with...

Jeffrey


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

unfortunately, many people make a bad name for different religions, ideas, words, etc. this way.....you know exactly what i mean i can see. :smile:

one of the easiest i can think of is the word "atheism" ......does that bring about happy thoughts when you hear it?







probably not, because there are a million different ideas people have about what the word means...most of which are extremely negative and completely false.

let me make it clear that i get along better with many of my christian friends/colleagues than i do with some of my atheist/agnostic colleagues.

i dont have a problem with anyone's beliefs unless they try to force them on me.


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

not religous, been to church once for a service when i was in the army and i felt

unconfortable there, its was that or paint the barracks, read revalations cause it

was the only book they let us have in basic training,

im more of a spiritual person i guess i dont know

just live a good life and every thing will be fine.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

I would describe myself as an ecclectic follower of what used to be the Old Religion of the ancient Celts. I say ecclectic because I haven't chosen a specific tradition yet (I probably never will), but I do identify with certain traits from various ones. All traditions have the same basic beliefs, the most important being that you can have your own interpretation of those beliefs! Another important trait that all traditions share is the lack of Original Sin. Christians believe that we are sinners from the start, and have to come to Jesus for salvation. Instead, we believe that we are not sinners, and should embrace our humanity. Lastly, there is no belief in Satan or Hell. I believe that to be a good way to keep people in line and to behave. Instead, we believe that we are in charge of knowing good from evil. I basically believe in Deity (as seen through the union of both male and female halves) and that Deity should be worshiped by observing the cyles of the seasons and moon. Our natural behaviors are governed so much by the earth's cycles that it just makes sense to me to celebrate the Sabbats and Esbats. I believe in an afterlife and have even started to take reincarnation into serious consideration, after certain occurances have lead me to believe that it's a definate possiblity.

As a sidenote, I was raised as an Advent Christian. I was always full of questions and never got any answers. One day I was walking in the woods and this odd feeling overwhelmed me. I know it sounds funny, but really, it pretty much knocked me on my ass. It took a while to realize (and accept) that that feeling wasn't a Christian feeling. From that moment on, I knew, not necessarily wanting to admit, that the Christian path wasn't for me. Only recently have I completely been able to say that I am a follower of nature and love it. I feel much more "whole" as a person, if that means anything. And no, I'm not a hippy or flowerchild. I love to eat meat and I do drive a car. I just follow the cycles of the earth...that is my "religion."


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Puma said:


> of course, the same can be said about most of the christians i have met who drink themselves stupid on the weekends, and then go slap $2 in the collection plate and talk to imaginary friends on sunday.....










Well at least I dont slap the 2 dollars or talk to imaginary friends so you people can make me feel bad about myself.


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

Xenon said:


> Puma said:
> 
> 
> > of course, the same can be said about most of the christians i have met who drink themselves stupid on the weekends, and then go slap $2 in the collection plate and talk to imaginary friends on sunday.....
> ...


im usually prayin to the toilet on sunday mornings after a good night

give my donation to the porcline gods :laugh:

and tell them im never drinking this much again :laugh:


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

draco, you sound very much like a druid to me. :smile:

interesting input this thread is getting, very cool.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Draco - I got a question for you, and it is not meant as disrespect. I just honestly do not know the answer...

What is your view of the afterlife through the religion of the ancients? Do they have the view of an afterlife?

Is your center of power viewed as the Oak? I am trying to put all this together (I cannot remember which old celtic religion centers around the Oak!?!? Sorry if that is not yours)

There are 17 major world religions that I know quite alot about...but this is not one of them!

Thanks for the info...

Jeffrey


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## ProdigalMarine (Jan 31, 2003)

I got converted to catholism, ever since i started going to sunday mass at boot camp, i've been a catholic ever since. The only thing i dislike about the catholic religion is the stand up-sit down-stand up-sit down crap! I prefer to just sit there in church, be in solitude for 30 minutes and wait for the Father to recite St. Michaels prayer at the end of the mass....no 2 hour long mass for me!


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2004)

Puma said:


> of course, the same can be said about most of the christians i have met who drink themselves stupid on the weekends, and then go slap $2 in the collection plate and talk to imaginary friends on sunday.....


 That's a bit coarse and I don't see a connection. Are you saying that someone who goes out drinking on the weekend (or week day







) can not be a Christian? Is that what qualifies someone to be one?

I think it's more accurate to say that the behavior is highly offensive to you. Your strong emotions on the subject make you want to believe that it's a sacrilege, which it is not.


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## IDONTKARE47 (Jan 5, 2004)

don't go anymore but will attend later when feel like it


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> Your strong emotions on the subject make you want to believe that it's a sacrilege, which it is not.


my strong emotions? sorry, i dont have any on the subject to be honest.

not a sacrilege huh? here is a random search from google.com

"Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor..." (Habakkuk 2:15)

"...Drunkenness...and the like...those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God... And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5:21-24)

Gen. 9:20-27; 19:30-36; Lev. 10:8-11; Num. 6:2-4; Deut. 32:32-33; Jud. 13:2-14; 1Sam. 1:11; Prov. 23:20-21; 31:4-7; Is. 5:11-12, 22; 28:7-8; 56:10-12; 65:8; Jer. 35; Ezek. 44:21; Dan. 1:8-17; 5; Hos. 4:11, 18; Hab. 2:5; Luke 1:13-15; 11:4; 12:45-47; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; 2Cor. 7:1; Tit. 1

does the bible say things about the use of wine? well, it certainly does.

you will note that i was talking about "excessive" use of alcohol, and not a glass of wine.

btw- this is a moot point, since i dont have a problem with it to begin with.......i was essentially just making the point that there are just as many hipocritical christians are there are atheists out there.

pick another hypocritical situation in your mind if it makes you feel better....any will do. :smile:


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2004)

I've been told the Bible also forbids:
-wearing two different weaves of cloth at the same time.
-eating shellfish
-planting two different crops in the same field.

Certainly, sharing a bowl of jumbo shrimp with my fish doesn't make me hypocrite.

[Edit] The more I think about this subject, the more I agree there are alot of hypocrites out there. Someone once told me, "Going to church makes you a Christian like standing in a garage makes you a car".

Nobody's perfect, and it certainly isn't my job to judge.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

I am still formulating my opinions on all these matters, yet Puma I think you literal translation of Bible verbiage is not the only way to fly.


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## ViBE (Jul 22, 2003)

Until there are hard evidence of god. Then I'll worship him.

How foolish would I be to worship someone who is nothing.

I have no religion.


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## SLANTED (Dec 7, 2003)

Blessed is the man who expects nothing, for he will not be dissapointed.

Alexander Pope


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## t_h_e_s_a_c_k (Nov 16, 2003)

ViBE said:


> Until there are hard evidence of god. Then I'll worship him.
> 
> How foolish would I be to worship someone who is nothing.
> 
> I have no religion.


 I'm still in search of God myself. I wanna believe so bad but I question wether he is really there. I wake up every morning and hope that I find God that day. John, my youth pastor, tells me that If I ask God to show me him, he will. But probably It wont be in physical form. I just have to want him to.

I guess we already have our hard proof. Jesus died for our sins and came back to life.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

PastorJeff said:


> Draco - I got a question for you, and it is not meant as disrespect. I just honestly do not know the answer...
> 
> What is your view of the afterlife through the religion of the ancients? Do they have the view of an afterlife?
> 
> ...


I have heard mention of the Oak, but that seems to be central to the Druids. Unfortunately, I have only been actively researching the Old Religion for a short time. Even still more unfortunate, modern written books are highly biased towards the newer traditions, so it is hard to say for sure what they practiced. Much was lost with them when they disappeared after Chrisitianity took hold in the area. As time passed, some resurfaced and the many newer traditions spung up, Wicca being one of them (which is supposedly stemmed off traditional Druidism, but since most information died with them, I don't know how true that is for sure). I'm not sure about all, but I do know that Wiccans have an active concept of the afterlife called the Summerland. Other traditions have beliefs similar to the Underworld of the Ancient Greeks and Romans. A large concept of the traditions is being able to form your own beliefs around the major "points." I have read that some believe in life after death, whether it be enlightenment, the ideas shared above, or reincarnation. Others belief that death is final, while still more believe that death is a natural cycle of the planet.

As far as central powers, I have seen some make mention of the Oak, or Tree of Life, and others make mention of the Horned God (the one the Christians formed their vision of Satan around to scare people away from the "Old" ways), or Green Man (which is supposed to be an embodiment of the Oak). I have also heard the Horned God being referred to as Pan. Still others, like the Wiccans, pray to the Goddess. Some believe in a separate God and Goddess, while others, like me, believe in a unity of the two. There are also many other beings that are touched upon. I'm still not sure what I make of them. I've heard mention of some believing that all those beings are different embodiments of the single Divine. That makes more sense to me, as some Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different embodiments of their Divine. That to me, is polytheism, but not complete polytheism (like saying that all the beings are self conscious and separate beings).

It gets even more different when discussing how Deity is seen throughout the world. I won't go into detail, but I basically have a animistic view...being that the Divine is seen everywhere and in everything. I also have a panentheistic view on how the Divine is percieved.

In the book "Pagans and Christians: The Personal Spiritual Experience" by Gus DiZerega, Ph.D, he says that there are five major characteristics of Pagan spirituality:
- Patheism or Panentheism
- Animism
- Polytheism
- The Eternal Present (Primary emphasis upon spiritual reality's cyclical and mythical rather than linear and historical character)
- No equivalent of Satan or Ultimate Evil

As far is not knowing much about them, neither do I, unfortunately. I had formed my ideas about Original Sin and the "oneness" with nature long before I even knew what a Wiccan was. When I happened to be browsing a book store and took a look (I was highly skeptical because then I was still calling myself a Christian and thought that witches were all evil Satanists, which obviously isn't true), it dawned on me that I wasn't alone with my beliefs. There were other people out there, a lot actually, that felt the same way I did! That's when I knew I was on the wrong path and started reading as much as I could. As said above, many books are biased towards the new traditions and don't touch upon the Ancient Celts all that much except to say that the foundations stand up them and that they all but disappeared after the Christians came. I'm also alone in my search for research and understanding. I haven't met anyone yet that I feel comfortable enough with to talk about it and I certainly haven't met someone I can look to for acurate advice and history. Most are fumbling around in the dark as I am.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> I am still formulating my opinions on all these matters, yet Puma I think you literal translation of Bible verbiage is not the only way to fly.


did you actually read my posts?

i dont follow any interpretation of your bible. i am not a christian.

i made perfectly clear that i was merely making the point that hypocrites dwell within all types of people, and not just atheists.

the poster did NOT say that "all" atheists think that way, they just said that it was their experience that they do.

in MY experience, the door opens both ways.

i dont care if someone drinks the night away, i dont care if someone is jewish, catholic, eastern orthodox, protestant, wiccan, muslim....etc. etc. etc. etc.

i was just adding "my" experience with people, just like everyone else was.

where's the fire?


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

catholic from the very beginning..was a church attender for years(still pray)..but recently i have strayed from attending(my fault..laziness)...but sometimes certain things about church bother me..i love god with all my heart,if it wasn't for him i don't know were i would be..but people at church say and do things that i believe are wrong at times..and it just bothers me..but that's me..

exp: love your neighbor...

now paster jeff let me bring this to you" i live in san francisco big gay delima over here about marriage..bible states,it's wrong to be with another man and so it is for a women to be with another women...(i too believe in this) but yet church condemn gay people..why? aren't we suppose to love our neighbor? even if they live in sin? pray for them instead of marching and picketing with evil and cruel sign ..of hell bound??aren't they sinning as well for having evilness in there heart?


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

most people in this debate eventually come to the conclusion that the term "marriage" is a religious one, and should be treated as such...between man and woman.

if a civil union carried the same benefits as a marriage, i would support them instead...but they do not.

i myself would have sought a civil union if this were the case, since the religious aspect is meaningless to me.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Marriage in it's purest form is not relgious. It is a legal contract between two people, binding them in marriage. The Christians did not invent it, therefore, they have no right to lay claim over who can be married and who can't. Marriage was around in ancient Rome, and as far as I know, they embraced homosexuality as a part of life.


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## kdblove_99 (Jul 17, 2003)

ViBE said:


> Until there are hard evidence of god. Then I'll worship him.
> 
> How foolish would I be to worship someone who is nothing.
> 
> I have no religion.


 It's called faith!!

I'm a Christian and go every sunday!

Pastor Jeff,

Had a quick kinda off-topic question.

In "The Passion" When Jesus was being beaten the Devil passes by behind the High Priests. She was holding a baby. What to you did the baby signify?


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## kdblove_99 (Jul 17, 2003)

Marriage was around in ancient Rome, and as far as I know, they embraced homosexuality as a part of life.

Draco, would love to see proof of this, please!!!


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## InIndiana (Nov 6, 2003)

If u don't mind , I'll take this question from Pj. The Devil held the baby as to show Jesus that "look, this baby is my child. Look what I'm doing to it, I'm holding it, I'm careing for it like a parent should. Look what your Father has done to you. You are at your weakest now and look where your dad is and the position you are in now." You can interpret it in paraphrase having the devil just say Hey look Where your Father is now. Now as for my religion, I admit I have had trouble finding religion but I have found it lately, especially with the help of The Passion. Until there is proof of him, I will not worship him..That is a quote from above. Thats your opinion and I have mine. I think the proof is in life itself. Something so miraculous, so complex, yet so simple is proof enough for me. Jesus and his resurection is proof enough for me. The scripture is proof enough for me...Heres a quote for you " The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"


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## tinyteeth (Mar 12, 2003)

if god is real, church gives god a bad rep


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

InIndiana said:


> If u don't mind , I'll take this question from Pj. The Devil held the baby as to show Jesus that "look, this baby is my child. Look what I'm doing to it, I'm holding it, I'm careing for it like a parent should. Look what your Father has done to you. You are at your weakest now and look where your dad is and the position you are in now." You can interpret it in paraphrase having the devil just say Hey look Where your Father is now. Now as for my religion, I admit I have had trouble finding religion but I have found it lately, especially with the help of The Passion. Until there is proof of him, I will not worship him..That is a quote from above. Thats your opinion and I have mine. I think the proof is in life itself. Something so miraculous, so complex, yet so simple is proof enough for me. Jesus and his resurection is proof enough for me. The scripture is proof enough for me...Heres a quote for you " The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"


 well said









and draco..yes i would like to see this too..that i know of homosexuality was never open and excepted..


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

thePACK said:


> yes i would like to see this too..that i know of homosexuality was never open and excepted..


Many ancient texts and paintings depict what is seen as two (or more) definate male figures engaging in sexual acts. That has lead many historians to believe that homosexuality was just as prevalent in those days as it is now. In the series, "The History of Sex," shown on The History Channel, it discusses the prevalence of homosexuality in almost every ancient culture, ancient China and Greece/Rome being the largest. Here's some interesting info from this site:

Sex Education Links
Egypt was and is a civilization of vast diversity. Ancient Egypt had many different sexual behaviors and diversities: homosexuality, transgenderism, incest marriages, exhibitionism, prostitution, adultery, bestiality, necrophilia, and others. There were different customs among nobility, common people, and slaves. Nobility had a wide range of marital customs and practically all sexual behaviors were both accepted and condemned depending on the time period and the ruling class. This was similar with the common people, only there seems to be a more strict regime in marriage, and a variety of punishments to those who broke the laws. What was acceptable among slaves and concubines was dependent upon their owners. Although Egypt has similarities to other civilizations, they also had unique sexual imagery and customs.

India is an old civilization of vast history. In India, there is a caste system, in which people are born into a hierarchical caste or class of people. Castes are fixed and other than marriage and children of those marriages, one cannot change castes. Within different castes, different sexual customs are tolerated. India as a whole has various sexual 'behaviors' such as adultery, homosexuality, transgenderism, exhibitionism, prostitution, sadism/masochism, beastiality, and necrophilia. The most publicly known sexual literature of India are the texts of the sixty four arts. These texts were written for and kept by the upper castes and nobility, their servants and concubines, and those in certain religious orders. These were people that could also read and write and had instruction and education.

In ancient China, The Chou dynasty had a Taoist doctrine although Taoism itself was not a formal religion yet. They divided men and women into the yin and the yang. Women were said to have an unexhaustable supply of yin essence. While men had a limited supply of yang. It was forbidden for men to use up their yang essence without acquiring plenty of yin essence. That meant that before a man was allowed to ejaculate, he had to prolong it, making a woman orgasm several times to acquire her yin essence. If a man ejaculated or used up his yang essence without taking any yin essence it was said to cause him health problems and even death. Masturbation by men was seen as unhealthy and forbidden, for it was said to cause a complete loss of his vital yang essence. Women could masturbate freely as they were said to have an unlimited yin. Medical texts only warned women against masturbation with foreign objects which were believed to injure the womb and internal sexual organs. Nocturnal emissions or 'wet dreams' that men had were seen as a health problem for men. During this time, _female homosexuality was widespread_, but male homosexuality was rare. Male homosexuality was forbidden because it was considered a complete loss of yang essence on the part of both men. Meanwhile, since women were said to have an unlimited yin essence, there was _no loss of yin in female homosexual relations_. Not until the Han dynasty did male homosexuality figures reach the same standard as among other societies. At first, prostitution was accepted by the Chinese. Men thought that they could gain more yin from prostitutes than from normal women. They believed that since such women had sex with so many men, that they had acquired more yang essence from them, thus, they could give a patron more yang essence than he had lost. However, Chinese medicine began to identify prostitutes with many diseases at an early stage in human history and they began warning men against them.

Even though male homosexuality was common in Ancient Greece, it was censored in their artwork to an extent. In literature, it is called "love of a man for a man." In paintings, the homosexual men are depicted clothed together, except for homosexual prostitutes who are depicted naked. When homosexual men wrote about their love for other men the most loved boys were usually age 12-14.
Some homosexual men wouldn't even try to have sex with a boy over the age of 17.

That is a very good site with lots of info. Check it out...


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## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

I am currently an agnostic, although the Gnostic Christians are very interesting to me.


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## jackburton (Nov 25, 2003)

since i started this post ill put my comments...
i dont want to offend any one

first of all iam not religous....i do belive theres a greater formbut not anything to do with god or christ or religions.when i was at bording school i was forced to go every sunday i felt this is wrong and dont like or go to churches now....
I MUST SAY I THINK AMERICANS ARE MORE IN TO THE RELIGIONS THAN US ENGLISH WE DONT SEEM THAT BOTHERD.....ALSO I BELIVE RELIGION IS THE MOST CORRUPT ORGANISATION ON THE PLANET ..THE CAUSE OF WARS....ALSO I BELIVE THAT PEOPLE WHO R RELIGOUS R WEAK IN THEM SELVES AND NEED GUIDENCE IN LIFE .THERE INSERCURE AND NEED SOMETHING TO LOOK TO UNTILL THE VERY END....AND HOPE THERES SOMETHING TO COME AT THE END OF IT ALL .I BELIVE YOU HAVE TO LIVE YOUR LIFE TO THE FULL YOU ONLY GET ONE....

ONE LAST THING CAN YOU REMBER BEFOR U WAS BORN WHAT WAS IT LIKE ?
WHY SHOULD ANYTHING B DIFFERNT WHEN YOU DIE...

CHEERS SORRY ABOUT THE SPELLING.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

jackburton said:


> since i started this post ill put my comments...
> i dont want to offend any one
> 
> first of all iam not religous....i do belive theres a greater formbut not anything to do with god or christ or religions.when i was at bording school i was forced to go every sunday i felt this is wrong and dont like or go to churches now....
> ...


well aint that a sunny outlook.









Draco is right that homosexuality was common and accepted in many ancient civilizations.

I got another question for PJ:

Before Jesus came along, did the people before that time have any chance to get to heaven?

If not, that really sucks for them.









good for me though.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

thePACK said:


> now paster jeff let me bring this to you" i live in san francisco big gay delima over here about marriage..bible states,it's wrong to be with another man and so it is for a women to be with another women...(i too believe in this) but yet church condemn gay people..why? aren't we suppose to love our neighbor? even if they live in sin? pray for them instead of marching and picketing with evil and cruel sign ..of hell bound??aren't they sinning as well for having evilness in there heart?


 You really bring an excellent question up here...and it is one that I wish more people would ask, and they would ask it more often!

Is homosexuality wrong according to the scriptures...YES! Do I believe that they should have the right to marry....NO. The whole thought of a man to man or woman to woman relationship really sickens me.

Do I have hate against a homosexual? No I do not, and I never will. You have it correct in your response. It is not our job to judge them or hate them or the such. If you want to get down to the nitty gritty...homosexuality is a sin...but so isn't lying, or being drunk, or gossip, murder, and the list goes on. There is no difference in sin in Gods eyes. There is in OUR eyes...but not in God's.

I get so many people that are angry over the whole homosexual marriage thing. They do not want it to become law. When all is said and done stopping or barring marriage in the homosexual community is not going to make them stop what they are doing. It will not make them change their hearts. Only God can do that.

I have a friend that is a homosexual. He and I talk about it when HE wants to...I don't push the matter. He has no problem being gay, but he is smart enough to know that homosexuality is not the way that God made things to work. This is a very hard struggle for him. BUT what helps me in dealing with him is that I love him for who he is, and don't try to push him into being something that I want him to be.

His sin of homosexuality is no different than my sin of lying or anger or whatever. God sees us the same. And anyone who says differently is not reading scripture and acting accordingly...

Just my thoughts...GREAT question!!!

Jeffrey


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

InIndiana said:


> If u don't mind , I'll take this question from Pj. The Devil held the baby as to show Jesus that "look, this baby is my child. Look what I'm doing to it, I'm holding it, I'm careing for it like a parent should. Look what your Father has done to you. You are at your weakest now and look where your dad is and the position you are in now."


 Excellent answer...that is exactly what is was supposed to mean.

A mockery of both the love of God for him, and the love of Mary his mother. Satan was supposed to be trying to get him to give up.

Excellent answer! Way to go!

Jeffrey


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> Before Jesus came along, did the people before that time have any chance to get to heaven?


i hear this time and again, and i somehow always feel the need to chime in to perhaps help people understand something.

you could also claim that before buddha came along, people could not know the best path to reach enlightenment.

heaven/hell, for the most part, is a judeo-christian belief only.....and is meaningless to most other world religions....just like a buddhist telling you that you will be reincarnated as a turd is meaningless to you......(obviously i am making extreme over-simplifications, so i dont want a run-down of zen or therevada, or etc. buddhism from anyone)

your statments are coming from a highly-jaded, christian world view.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Damn PJ forgot my question


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## Genin (Feb 4, 2003)

I am deeply religious. However, I am non denominational. I don't believe that I need to go and pay to worship my God and Christ. I think it's horrible; the acts of greed and hypocrasy that have been caused by cruisading denominations. It sickens me when I go to a church and they don't preech acceptance (don't dare try to tell me they do, cause that is bullshit). Almost every church I have gone to has said love everyone, yet has looked down on other groups or people within their own church. It sickens me that they use the church as a crutch and I avoid people like that whenever possible. Being in nature and praying is as close to God as you'll get. Just my opinion.

Joe


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Puma said:


> your statments are coming from a highly-jaded, christian world view.


 Which in my opinion is the correct and only view. Thanks.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

lol.

websters dictionary

see *dogmatic


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

I don't attend chirch mostly because orginized religion has always added its own little twist to the bible. I belive in the bible and consider myself religious, more than the people who go to church just because they think they have to. for example, most people go to church on sunday, but the sabath is saterday. the 10 comandment say remember the sabath day and keep it holy.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

let me ask you for the fun of it-

do you think that people with views such as your own (related to their religion) are capable of commting attrocities?

and do you think that were you born in india, that you would still be a christian today?

just want to know, not to start a flame war.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Xenon said:


> Damn PJ forgot my question


 Nope...I did not forget your question. I had a 14 year old girl hang herself last night so I have been up all night and now dealing with a ton of phone calls coming in and the such. One of those situations where you are asking yourself "What the heck is God doing?". But in the end...I am not God. So I will have to wait for my answers when I get into heaven.









Xenon - Think of it this way. The Old Testament is called "The Law" for there were all kinds of do's and do not's that were required. There is even a verse for what you have to do if you trip a blind man...kinda funny!







For EVERY sin, there was a sacrifice that needed to take place for that sin to be forgiven. If the person followed the "law" then they are going to be in heaven.

In the New Testament, Christ was the final sacrafice for all mankind. We have the "law" to give us the example that God wants from us, but the Bible says that "the blood of bulls and goats does not save" and that is because there is no need for sacrafice anymore. Christ took care of that...(here enters the passion film). Christ's blood HAD to be shed...he was the final sacrifice that was needed for us.

So YES...those that abided by the law in the Old Testament will be in heaven. Those who did not...will not be in heaven.

Hope that kinda answers it...if not, let me know and I will go deeper into this.

Jeffrey


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

> Dogmatic - Characterized by an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles


unproved or uprovable have nothing to do with Christianity. Proof is for the weak. Faith is for the strong.



> do you think that people with views such as your own (related to their religion) are capable of commting attrocities?


Absolutely, any human is capable. We are all sinners.



> and do you think that were you born in india, that you would still be a christian today?


Probably not, but hopefully I wouldve been reached by the many missions trips in that part of the world. Otherwise, I would be screwed.



> just want to know, not to start a flame war.


Oh I know, it adds spice to my otherwise dull work day.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Puma said:


> and do you think that were you born in india, that you would still be a christian today?


 This is a good question and gets right down to a core question...Do we find God or does God find us?

This is a debate that could start WWIII, so I will say this. I belive that if I were born in Ruissia, Korea, India, or wherever...I would still be a Christian. I would be different than I am now, for the circumstances that would have taken place regarding my conversion would be different.

This is a very deep question...I am impressed!
















Jeffrey


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> Proof is for the weak. Faith is for the strong.


interesting take on this......maybe i should start making the claim that 500lb mice are living in the center of the earth.....you would believe me wouldnt you?

actually, i consider myself the stronger of the two of us, since i do not believe an absurd book out of fear of where i may go when i die. likely, worms will consume me 6ft. under the ground, which is all there is any evidence for.

who is stronger? the man who suffers a delusion, or the man who accepts the truth no matter how harsh it is?



> Absolutely, any human is capable. We are all sinners.


cool, we are on the same page here.











> Probably not, but hopefully I wouldve been reached by the many missions trips in that part of the world. Otherwise, I would be screwed.


almost on the same page....except for the last part.

ahh....i will leave it there, lol.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2004)

Puma said:


> let me ask you for the fun of it-
> do you think that people with views such as your own (related to their religion) are capable of commting attrocities?
> and do you think that were you born in india, that you would still be a christian today?
> just want to know, not to start a flame war.


 Puma, you're a real downer. We're sharing our individual spiritual views and you're pissing on our parade. Perhaps you could start your own thread fixated upon negativity, critisism, and rational explanations for undermining faith.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

lol, sorry if i derailed the thread. i know that hacks people off, so i am sorry about that.

however, i think it is important to ask yourself the hard questions about your own convictions.

what good are they otherwise?

perhaps when you understand why you are not a hindu, you will understand why i am not a christian.

anyway, sorry....back on topic if that is the desire of the masses.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

actually, when considering the quality of the topics coming from the lounge, why not have this type of discussion?

i thought this was a "if you dont like it, dont post" section?

i promise you wont find me griping in the "shaved genitals" or "pot smoking" or "kill my boss or girlfriend" threads.........

what's the beef?


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2004)

I don't believe in the homosexual lifestyle, but as a Christian, I believe we are obigated to tolerate it. Tolerance is a value I seek to attain from learning to be a Christian. I know a few gay people from work and I know they were born that way. It certainly wouldn't be their choice if they had one.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Puma said:


> actually, when considering the quality of the topics coming from the lounge, why not have this type of discussion?
> 
> i thought this was a "if you dont like it, dont post" section?
> 
> ...


 I really don't have a problem with these types of questions....becasue you are asking in sincerity rather than with an attitude.

In the end, it comes down to a foundation of faith, that is not going to be shared by all.

Just my .02 cents....

Jeffrey


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

> interesting take on this......maybe i should start making the claim that 500lb mice are living in the center of the earth.....you would believe me wouldnt you?


If a book was written under the authority of God that stated that, hell yeah I would believe you.



> actually, i consider myself the stronger of the two of us, since i do not believe an absurd book out of fear of where i may go when i die.


Christianity has many more implications that just what happens "when you die". It is a way of life that I know I personally do not live up to, yet I aspire to someday. If you consider yourself stronger, that is fine by me, but from where I am standing your a mental and moral weakling hellbent on attempting to subvert our opinions to satisfy your own deficiencies.



> likely, worms will consume me 6ft. under the ground, which is all there is any evidence for.


I agree with you. They call it *hell*. Enjoy the worms.



> who is stronger? the man who suffers a delusion, or the man who accepts the truth no matter how harsh it is?


So you have figured out what "truth" is? Stop the presses. Philosophers have pondered this question for 1000's of years, but our dear friend "Puma" has discovered what "truth" is!!! And he is about to reveal what the ultimate truth is right here, LIVE on Piranha-Fury. Please enlighten me as this will be good. Stop deluding yourself....you dont know jack.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Xenon said:


> Christianity has many more implications that just what happens "when you die". It is a way of life that I know I personally do not live up to, yet I aspire to someday.


 Xenon - Not to bust you out or anything, but I want to make a point on something that you said above...

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT CHRISTIANITY IS! You are in a better place than most of the people that call themselves "Christians". Christianity is the belief in Jesus Christ and what he did for the sins of mankind (the basic tennants of our faith) which I sense you do beleve.

The rest is a life long process of building and growing. We can never just sit stagnant, but it is the process of growing that marks a believer.

You are doing fine. I am no different than you. We both are growing in our faith...it all takes time.

Hope that makes sense...

Jeffrey


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

PastorJeff said:


> Xenon said:
> 
> 
> > Christianity has many more implications that just what happens "when you die". It is a way of life that I know I personally do not live up to, yet I aspire to someday.
> ...


I am still exploring all the aspects of organized Christianity. Thanks for your compliments. BTW, I updated your avatar to something a little more appropriate.


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## FuZZy (Apr 18, 2003)

My mom is Jewish and dad is Luthern. I took part in jewish religion until i was 12 years old and havnt been back in over 7 years. I did go to church with my dad for Christmas for a few years but thats about it. I dont really see my self as anything might have thought about going back to synagog when i get older.

I was raised in the North where alot of people believed in god but dont spend that much time at church. Since moving to SC (the Bible Belt) I have had many different views on the church. I see them more as colts down here. You see one at every corner and the are jiganitc. The more members to them the stronger they are. These people used to come my HS and sit in the parking lot every day after school and try to get people to convert to there faith and attend there church. They would do anything to get to talk to you from buying pizzas to giveing out soda. I finnaly went up to them and asked them why they are here every day, and they told me to make people feel happier about god. I just laughed and walked away.

I dont have a problem with people going to church but trying to get people of other faiths to join you church is wrong.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

FuZZy said:


> I dont have a problem with people going to church but trying to get people of other faiths to join you church is wrong.


 can you elaborate on this a little? Why exactly is it wrong? If you discovered a cure for cancer, and everyone around you was dying of it, would you not tell people?


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## Scooby (Dec 25, 2003)

just got off the phone with jesus and he says get over it!!! you all got yer religions thats fantastic, but quit making jesus posts what is this Christian-Fury.com


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Scooby said:


> just got off the phone with jesus and he says get over it!!! you all got yer religions thats fantastic, but quit making jesus posts what is this Christian-Fury.com


 no, but this is the Lounge. Just like the more offensive threads.....dont like it, dont click it.


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## sprinter78 (Nov 24, 2003)

InIndiana said:


> If u don't mind , I'll take this question from Pj. The Devil held the baby as to show Jesus that "look, this baby is my child. Look what I'm doing to it, I'm holding it, I'm careing for it like a parent should. Look what your Father has done to you. You are at your weakest now and look where your dad is and the position you are in now." You can interpret it in paraphrase having the devil just say Hey look Where your Father is now. Now as for my religion, I admit I have had trouble finding religion but I have found it lately, especially with the help of The Passion. Until there is proof of him, I will not worship him..That is a quote from above. Thats your opinion and I have mine. I think the proof is in life itself. Something so miraculous, so complex, yet so simple is proof enough for me. Jesus and his resurection is proof enough for me. The scripture is proof enough for me...Heres a quote for you " The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"


Actually that is excellent. This was one of the unresolved questions I had in the movie, whether it was a symbol of the anti-christ, or something else that I couldn't think of. My wife and I were trying to decide, but now this answers a lot.









As far as my beliefs, I am a christian who was brought up a Methodist but have now become a Baptist. Im still trying to get used to my new church home as it is different from what I am used to (very very conservative). I do believe in the trinity and I do believe that when I pass from this world, I will be with God in Heaven. Just my .02.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

PastorJeff said:


> Xenon said:
> 
> 
> > Damn PJ forgot my question
> ...


 Now what about the people that were around before the Old Testament? What about the people that didn't have the Old Testament like the Native Americans, Celts, Nordics, Ancient Babylonians, etc., etc., etc...did those people just go to Hell because they didn't believe in something they had never seen or didn't exist yet? I think not.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

dracofish said:


> Now what about the people that were around before the Old Testament? What about the people that didn't have the Old Testament like the Native Americans, Celts, Nordics, Ancient Babylonians, etc., etc., etc...did those people just go to Hell because they didn't believe in something they had never seen or didn't exist yet? I think not.


 great question. I have always wondering this as well. Kinda like the question, if a tree falls in a forest and nobody can hear...... you know the rest.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2004)

> QUOTE (dracofish @ Mar 10 2004, 12:40 PM)
> Now what about the people that were around before the Old Testament? What about the people that didn't have the Old Testament like the Native Americans, Celts, Nordics, Ancient Babylonians, etc., etc., etc...did those people just go to Hell because they didn't believe in something they had never seen or didn't exist yet? I think not.


Maybe it doesn't matter specificlly which religon we have. The way I see it, there is a higher power that is largely beyond our comprehension from our perspective here on the kingdom of man. I'm butchering someone else's metaphor here, but just like a computer is useless without knowing an operating program, we need a specific religon to begin to understand this ultimate, higher power.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> where I am standing your a mental and moral weakling hellbent on attempting to subvert our opinions to satisfy your own deficiencies.


moral weakling?

that is a pretty harsh assesment there xenon, especially considering you have no idea who i am or the kind of person i am.

what is the basis for your morals? if you are defining "immoral" as "non christian" please also lump everyone else who is a non-christian into that category, and not just myself.

also, i believe it is the christian population as a whole who are the ones forcing their dogmatic beliefs onto children at a young age (as was done to me) and not atheists.

so, a christian calling me "hellbent" on pushing my beliefs is humorous to me to say the least.



> I agree with you. They call it hell. Enjoy the worms.


are you claiming that if i dig up a body at any random location, given that it is not in the latter stages of decomposition, that i would not find worms eating it?

it is NOT called hell, it is called a burial........and i dont plan to enjoy the worms any more than you will.



> So you have figured out what "truth" is? Stop the presses. Philosophers have pondered this question for 1000's of years, but our dear friend "Puma" has discovered what "truth" is!!! And he is about to reveal what the ultimate truth is right here, LIVE on Piranha-Fury. Please enlighten me as this will be good. Stop deluding yourself....you dont know jack.


lol. actually, the only truth i held to was that you will be eaten by worms 6ft. in the ground after you die.

would you care to test this assertion?

i made no claims about afterlife, those are words you added to my mouth......obviously i have no clue what happens when people die other than what can be tested.

so, it is actually YOU! who claims to know about an afterlife with no evidence, not i.



> If a book was written under the authority of God that stated that, hell yeah I would believe you.


which god? you obviously reject the koran, hindu scrolls, etc. etc. etc. which THEY claim to be written under the authority of their god(s).......

the bible is a book or oral tradition passed down from only a few people, over a thousand years ago. parts are cut out, rehashed, reworded, etc. and agreed upon by only 1/3 or the earth's population.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> If you consider yourself stronger


actually, this is moot.

i was merely responding to your claim that those with faith are "stonger" that you made before i brought up the concept of "strength".


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> The way I see it, there is a higher power that is largely beyond our comprehension from our perspective here on the kingdom of man


i guess i will continue to ruin your day bullsnake.....

this is NOT true.

traditional forms of buddhism are functionally atheistic, with no beliefs in gods, spirits, the supernatural, etc.

all religions are NOT basically the same.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

> are you claiming that if i dig up a body at any random location, given that it is not in the latter stages of decomposition, that i would not find worms eating it?
> 
> it is NOT called hell, it is called a burial........and i dont plan to enjoy the worms any more than you will.


Obviously I understand the scientific aspects of decomposition, and my reference was a metaphor to the very real "death" you will encounter when passing from this world. When I say death I dont mean "death" of the flesh, I mean death of the spirit (actually you are already dead, you will just pass to that little vacation house they call hell)



> what is the basis for your morals? if you are defining "immoral" as "non christian" please also lump everyone else who is a non-christian into that category, and not just myself.


While I do feel the basis for morality is Christianity and the Bible, I also feel there are morals ingrained into every person from the time they are born. Basic fundementals of right and wrong that most people will know without the assistance of an Old Testament, etc.



> i made no claims about afterlife, those are words you added to my mouth......obviously i have no clue what happens when people die other than what can be tested.


I do. Again this is a question of faith..... and I am not going to convince you that there is actually something beyond the current limited scientific reality of humans.



> so, it is actually YOU! who claims to know about an afterlife with no evidence, not i.


This is true. Its called faith. And I do have evidence. Its called the Bible. Refer to my statement above.



> which god? you obviously reject the koran, hindu scrolls, etc. etc. etc. which THEY claim to be written under the authority of their god(s).......
> 
> the bible is a book or oral tradition passed down from only a few people, over a thousand years ago. parts are cut out, rehashed, reworded, etc. and agreed upon by only 1/3 or the earth's population.


Good for the Koran. Reject it I may. That is my right in this country. Thanks for the little history lesson on the Bible...I know all about the arguments that it was rewritten by kings, etc etc..... It is once again my faith that leads me to believe these "myths" are stories meant to once again undermine peoples beliefs, cast from the devil, and broadcasted by people like yourself.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Puma said:


> > The way I see it, there is a higher power that is largely beyond our comprehension from our perspective here on the kingdom of man
> 
> 
> i guess i will continue to ruin your day bullsnake.....
> ...


 he said. "The way I see it"

I dont think hes buddist as all.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

> that is a pretty harsh assesment there xenon, especially considering you have no idea who i am or the kind of person i am.


I have an idea who you are by the things you have typed on this site. Enough at least to talk about for this subject.

I also know that you are going to spend all day going around in circles with me on this argument attempting to make your points. You will spend all day on it because your opinions are baseless and founded only in the logical assumptions you have made in your human and flawed mind.

So go nuts. I gotta get some lunch.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> It is once again my faith that leads me to believe these "myths" are stories meant to once again undermine peoples beliefs, cast from the devil, and broadcasted by people like yourself.


i feel the same way about your faith as you do about everyone else's, that is all i am saying.

i dont have a master plan or anything like that, i am just trying to get you to see more than what you might otherwise just by talking to other christians.

the same as all of you do for me.



> actually you are already dead, you will just pass to that little vacation house they call hell


if this was directed towards me, sorry for it is a failed attempt.

the belief in hell is just as asinine to me as a belief in god.....i dont lose any more sleep over fear of hell than your typical buddhist or hindu.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

amongst many of the "lounge" topics i have posted on, you will also find helpful comments...do a search of my history.

if you dont like my opinion on the lounge section, ban me. webforums are not a democracy.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Puma said:


> i dont have a master plan or anything like that, i am just trying to get you to see more than what you might otherwise just by talking to other christians.


:laugh: Now who making assumptions? Who says I have Christian friends, or talk to Christians at all. In fact I have steered clear of church for some time because I dont like talking to many people in churches. If you define talking to other Christians as me being at my usual watering hole over my 10th beer than you might be somehwat correct. Unfortunatly your assumptions have done you an injustice.

I am not trying to have you see anything more, yet your attacks on religion in this thread warranted a response. I am not in the business of being evangelical in the least.



> if you dont like my opinion on the lounge section, ban me. webforums are not a democracy.


Unfortunatly I am not in the business of banning people for no reason either.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> You will spend all day on it because your opinions are baseless and founded only in the logical assumptions you have made in your human and flawed mind


i feel that you still doubt my "worms" comment xenon, do we need to schedule a time to go out at night and test it?









and yes, i do use my "human" mind to form opinions, just as you do to form your beliefs in your religion....what's the difference?

have a good lunch bro!


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

> i feel that you still doubt my "worms" comment xenon, do we need to schedule a time to go out at night and test it?


You are obviously too dense to understand what I am typing.



> and yes, i do use my "human" mind to form opinions, just as you do to form your beliefs in your religion....what's the difference?


I actually attacked your "logical assumptions" that support your opinions. Once again this is a matter of faith, yet if we are eternally flawed our minds will logically craft a way out of the right. I have a very methodical and logical mind and I can find ways to justify any immoral or evil act..... Its just a matter of deluding yourself that you know it all.

You have that mastered!


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> yet your attacks on religion in this thread warranted a response


replace the word "attacks" with "opinons" and i agree with you.

you think i am not used to "warranting responses" by now?









if i didnt want responses i would just talk to myself.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Puma said:


> if i didnt want responses i would just talk to myself.


at least that wouldve made me more productive today at work.









BTW, I used warranting as a verb, not an adjective (if you wanna split hairs)


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> Its just a matter of deluding yourself that you know it all.


i thought you were the christian with ideas about an afterlife, and not me?

one of the reasons i am NOT a chrisitian is because i DONT delude myself into thinking my ideas are right and everyone else's are wrong.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

once again, you have clearly not read my words correctly.

"deluding yourself that you know it all."

Deluding *yourself* into thinking YOU know it all. I put no faith in my own logic and assumptions on matters of my spiritual origin, afterlife, etc. The mind is just not capable of making those kind of discoveries, and science is as yet, incapable as well.

The delusion comes in the fact you feel you are smarter than God.

And the answer to that will be "I dont believe in God".

And once again, it comes down to a matter of faith.

round and round we go.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

lets play my game for a second......answer me one thing:

Where do you think we came from?


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

we all know that when you die and you are christain that you go to heaven, right?

so then where are we before we are born? just unknown or are we something that extisted?

where is heaven anyways? is it at the end of the unveres? is it the universe? is the world part of heaven and is just outside the gates?

just what?


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

There is only one problem I have with being a Christian and that is the concept of trying to understand how God has been here forever. In all that we do/see/hear/touch there IS a beginning. My question is where did God come from? People say hes always been here...but how?! What do we have here on earth that proves that more than just God has been around forever?!

Dont get me wrong. I do believe in God and nothing will ever change that because of some of the things that have happened in my life. But its just the concept that gets me thinking everytime.


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

where was God? where was he before earth even started?

it is just to hard for us feeble-minded unstoned people to understand


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> There is only one problem I have with being a Christian and that is the concept of trying to understand how God has been here forever. In all that we do/see/hear/touch there IS a beginning. My question is where did God come from? People say hes always been here...but how?! What do we have here on earth that proves that more than just God has been around forever?!
> 
> Dont get me wrong. I do believe in God and nothing will ever change that because of some of the things that have happened in my life. But its just the concept that gets me thinking everytime.


 its the first cause theory. Philosophers have gone back to that for ages. There is always the perpetual "then what?"


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

Xenon said:


> lets play my game for a second......answer me one thing:
> 
> Where do you think we came from?


 monkeys evolved then the aliens came along and did some experiments and

out popped a hybrid thing that became us









just one of many theories i came up with in my pot smokin years.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

that theory is actually entertained by many people these days.

Look up the Raelians.


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

Xenon said:


> Look up the Raelians.


 what is this?


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

I have a hard time when I hear people preaching that their way is the right way and every other way is wrong. In reality, there are many parallels between various religions. Christianity is a huge "borrower" of other myths and practices, yet those other "borrowed from" religions are wrong? Christians are far from the only ones with myths of virgin births and resurrection.

For example, in a few weeks many Christians will be celebrating Easter, Christ's resurrection. Many Pagans will be celebrating the festival of Eostre, named after the Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring, Eastre, whose sacred animal was the Hare (Easter Bunny anyone?). The festival is a celebration of the coming of Spring and the _rebirth_ of life. A tradition was the coloring of eggs...hmm. Does anyone else see any similarities? LOL. There are also many other parallels, even with Christmas...


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## micus (Jan 7, 2004)

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH , im 15 i was baptised , but i come from the most un religious family you could imagine , when i hear stuff like " if u dont believe it you wont go into heaven" then that freaks me out. My mom tells me not to worry about it , and that if i try to be good to other people and a generally nice person then im fine. las time i went to church was when my granpa died,

PASTOR JEFF please tell me man , am i going to rot in hell or something , i mean im a pretty nice guy who has an open mind about everything , but i know litterally nothin about god/jesus, so am i hooped ???????


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## SLANTED (Dec 7, 2003)

In terms of the parallels between holidays, there is a reason for that. When St. Agustine was " converting" the celtic and germanic peoples, much of what resulted was a mixture. When peoples were taken over, they automatically had to believe in the religion of the winning country. Due to this, instantly in most cases, celtic and germanic peoples were "Christian" in name but not in actuality. Due to this, much of the holidays celebrated were just celebrated under different names( Ex. Christmas, valentines day, easter, ect).


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2004)

Puma said:


> > actually you are already dead, you will just pass to that little vacation house they call hell
> 
> 
> if this was directed towards me, sorry for it is a failed attempt.
> ...


 I believe hell is having to read another of Puma's posts.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

SLANTED said:


> In terms of the parallels between holidays, there is a reason for that. When St. Agustine was " converting" the celtic and germanic peoples, much of what resulted was a mixture. When peoples were taken over, they automatically had to believe in the religion of the winning country. Due to this, instantly in most cases, celtic and germanic peoples were "Christian" in name but not in actuality. Due to this, much of the holidays celebrated were just celebrated under different names( Ex. Christmas, valentines day, easter, ect).


 interesting. I did not know that.


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## MR.FREEZ (Jan 26, 2004)

"No offense, Apu, but when they were handing out religions, you musta been out taking a whizz." (Homer the Heretic #9F01)


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

where did *I* come from? or humans? life? what are you talking about specifically?

you really want my opinion?

i think that evolution by natural selection is responsible for the way i am today. i am open to the idea of a designer, but i dont as of "this" moment believe in any over another.

is this going to turn into the "argument from design" debate?

the idea being that complex things require a complex designer? (god(s)) ?

if so, let us apply the principle evenly and also require that your complex god ALSO have a creator, so who created god?

or we can go with "paley's watch" analysis if you wish, they have been rehashed for years on just about every forum.

if you are walking in the woods and find a watch, you would assume that it is so incredibly intricate that it must have a creator, and that it probably is not the result of natural proceses.

sounds good at first right?

the problem is that this analogy does not tell you "which" god created it, and furthermore if you were to walk past the watch and happen to stumble upon a steelmill......would you assume that the same being who created the watch (watchmaker) ALSO created the steelmill? probably not i imagine.

i am open to my ideas being attacked, ignored, shared.....etc. so by all means give some input if you want, and dont if you do not want to.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> just one of many theories i came up with in my pot smokin years


scratch the word "theory" and replace with "hypothesis" or "idea" .....scientific theories involve both an idea as well as testing. a good theory must also be potentially falsifiable, should evidence show otherwise.

i know that i probably sound like a jerk, but the word theory is used incorrectly so often that it has lost almost all meaning.

not trying to sound like a prick, just wanted to clarify..


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## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

Nevermind.

Go Tribe!


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

Xenon said:


> lets play my game for a second......answer me one thing:
> 
> Where do you think we came from?


 lets see, first mommy and daddy wanted to have fun and live together which lead to marrige and then on the honeymoon.....ill stop their :laugh:

i think that God is refining us each time, after the world comes to an end it starts oer with new things and God tweeks it a bit to kmake it better and then soon after he has perfected it, earth becomes heaven

all this makes me wanna smoke some pot


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## InIndiana (Nov 6, 2003)

Lu is using the Matrix theory. Ingenius...As far as was there God before all this? A true believer will assure his views when he finally meets God.. As far as evolution is concerned, the pope approves or condones evolution. It is a valuable THEORY that has greatly helped the understanding of many organisms adaptions. Whether I believed we evolved from Apes? No I do not. I do not think that a being so brilliant, so loving, caring and compassionate can come from an ape.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

SLANTED said:


> In terms of the parallels between holidays, there is a reason for that. When St. Agustine was " converting" the celtic and germanic peoples, much of what resulted was a mixture. When peoples were taken over, they automatically had to believe in the religion of the winning country. Due to this, instantly in most cases, celtic and germanic peoples were "Christian" in name but not in actuality. Due to this, much of the holidays celebrated were just celebrated under different names( Ex. Christmas, valentines day, easter, ect).


 True, but I think that by celebrating holidays and having practices that were once "Pagan," I think that Christians shouldn't shun people that still follow those original practices for what they really were. It is kinda hypocritical in my book to do so because you would be shunning yourself.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

on that note, anyone read the divinci code?


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## pamonster (Jun 26, 2003)

organized religion never did it for me, I believe in a higher power (I think) I wouldnt say I am religous


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## Fallenangel0210 (Dec 15, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> There is only one problem I have with being a Christian and that is the concept of trying to understand how God has been here forever. In all that we do/see/hear/touch there IS a beginning. My question is where did God come from? People say hes always been here...but how?! What do we have here on earth that proves that more than just God has been around forever?!


 My take on this:
To God, time does not exist.
the unborn and diceased exist, but it's an existence that transcends time and location. 
we have free will, and make our own free choices, but before we were concieved, God knew every single choice we would make. 
When we die, eternity has no clock, it's a state of being with no location, outside of a realm incorporating time

Where did God came from- this isn't an answer, God is the begining, he exists outside of time. he didn't just pop out of no where 230 million years ago


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## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

Fallenangel0210 said:


> we have free will, and make our own free choices, but before we were concieved, God knew every single choice we would make.


 But this is a contradiction. If an all-knowing and omnipotent god knew every choice you were going to make even before you were born, then your life would be carried out according to god's plan. If god is really omnipotent and infallible, you would only be able to choose the options that god knows you will choose, therefore you would not be free to choose otherwise. That doesn't seem like free-will.


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## Fallenangel0210 (Dec 15, 2003)

scarfish said:


> But this is a contradiction. If an all-knowing and omnipotent god knew every choice you were going to make even before you were born, then your life would be carried out according to god's plan. If god is really omnipotent and infallible, you would only be able to choose the options that god knows you will choose, therefore you would not be free to choose otherwise. That doesn't seem like free-will.


 I dont really see how you make that conclusion, thats just the way I look at it, what makes sense to me. 
our choices aren't limited to anything, God just knows what we are gonna do, how everything will turn out, before it's happoned. He doesn't give us mutiple choices as different situations arise, he just reins outside of time, being fully aware of what we did 5 years ago, ,and what we'll de a day before we die. He doesn't sit around watching our life pass, like a movie, anticipating our next move. since the moment he gave us free will, he knew how we'd use it, but he didn't chose for us
maybe that doesn't make sense, seem logical to others, tahts just my interpretation


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

scarfish said:


> Fallenangel0210 said:
> 
> 
> > we have free will, and make our own free choices, but before we were concieved, God knew every single choice we would make.
> ...


 You bring a very good point to the surface...Free Will.

This is a word that is abused horribly in the religious realms. I am not a big believer in Free Will as is normally defined.

I don't believe that we have free will.

Just my thoughts...

Jeffrey


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## Fallenangel0210 (Dec 15, 2003)

PastorJeff said:


> This is a word that is abused horribly in the religious realms. I am not a big believer in Free Will as is normally defined.
> 
> I don't believe that we have free will.


 Can you expand on that? How do you explain free will? Do you believe in predestination?


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## micus (Jan 7, 2004)

hey pj i still wan to know if im goin to hell or not man


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

I still want to know how anyone can say that the millions of people that were around _before_ the Old Testament and even the ones that were never exposed to it went to Hell. Also, even today, if I lived under a rock and had never heard of the Bible, would I go to Hell? Seems pretty foolish to say that.

The point is, form your own beliefs. Nobody is 100% right or wrong...most relgions have more than one thing in common, so they should all learn to respect each other.


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## o snap its eric (Feb 19, 2003)

Blah i hate all that religion BS. I follow no one religion. I teach at a christian private school, my parents are semi-buddish, my grandparents are full buddist. What am i? Im a nothing. I dont believe in all that non-sense. God provided me this and god gave me strength. Please! You gave yourself all that. What i hate most is when they say thank god for giving me food. I always feel like saying "YOUR MAMA IS THE ONE WHO GAVE YOU FOOD!"

Anyhow, im not bashing christanity, im simply saying, each religion has their goods to offer however with any religion, if you go in too deep its bad for you. Obsorb all the good things that they are trying to teach and nothing more. I take a lil advice from all the religion i am exposed to. I just believe that their is a high being above us.


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

I'm buddhist.

word.


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## rUBY84 (Jan 8, 2004)

I don't believe in god - or in heaven and hell for that matter. I'm not an atheist though, and I dont think I could be. I guess I dont know what I believe in right now. Wicca makes a lot of sense to me... its ideas and stuff - but I dont practice any of it. Just mostly read about. So many misconceptions people have about it...
I used to go to church but dont anymore - I was baptised at a United Church but if it was my choice, I wouldnt be baptised at all. When I have kids, they wont be baptised - I'll let them decide for themselves what religious path they want to follow in life. 
Last semester I took a religious studies class on christianity - it was interesting and the prof (a pastor at a local church) was really good. One of our assignments was to attend 2 church services and write a paper on them I dreaded doing this assignment so much - I only go in churches now for weddings or funerals. I went to a Presbyterian church and an Evangelical church. I ended up really enjoying the Evangelical service and if I ever was to return to going to church at some point in my life, that would probably be the one I'd go to.


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## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

I just spent the entire night awake reading about Gnostic Christianity. It actually makes sense! I'm gonna see if there's a church in my area so I can learn more. More people should check this out, it's like a combo of Bhuddism and Christianity, except there are a couple of huge revelations/twists. I am pretty happy about this.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

free will?

if you tell your wife that she is free to sleep with whom ever whe wants, and then if she should sleep with someone else, you shoot her in the head? is that free will?

free will - free will
n. 
The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will. 
The power of making free choices that are *unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will. 
*

so, what you have in your god is NOT free will by default.

you dont have free will, it is the greatest hristian illusion in my opinion.


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## Fallenangel0210 (Dec 15, 2003)

Puma said:


> free will?
> 
> if you tell your wife that she is free to sleep with whom ever whe wants, and then if she should sleep with someone else, you shoot her in the head? is that free will?
> 
> ...


 i dont really follow the whole shoot your wife thing. My boyfriend is free to make his own choices. I didn't give that freedom to him. He is free to sleep with whoever (he is cabable of carrying out the actions, weather I agree with it or not.), and i'm free to take action b/c of it, (ending the relationship, violence on him ect..) doesn't mean it's not a sin or that it's legal; i have the ability to make choices that are wrong, that to me, means I have free will
As i've been taught, (which i'm not sure i totallly agree with) is that the advantage humans have over animals is free will. Animals are led by instinct, conditioning, training, while humans have the ability to rationilize and pick for themselves
God gave us free will, the option to accept or reject him. To believe or not to.

I'm not trying to say you're wrong at all, i'm just sharing my spin on things

I got a dumb little story one of my teachers told me: a bunch of ants were in there hill underground and felt a rumbling. They went up to ground to see what it was. One group saw trees that were moving and went to share the "truth" they found. A second group saw the ground its self moving and went to share their "truth" Another group climbed up a tree and say a great snake. They too returned to the hill to share their "truth" They all told therir seperate story's and each swore they were right.
there had been a very large elephant. Each group was right, The moving tree- legs, the moving ground- it's body, the great snake- it's tail
that is an over simplified approach, I just think we're all right, we all have different pieces of the "truth"


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

i guess my analogy was rather weak . lol.









if you take free will to mean a decision made that is NOT restrained by fear of eternal damnation, then i argue that christians do not have this free will that they speak of.



> unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.


god says "you may choose whether to believe in me or not", "but if you choose not to, i will burn you forever in hell you pathetic mortals....mwhaaa."

that isnt free will, not even close.

does that make more sense? ....i realize that probably no one agrees with me, but do you understand what i am getting at?

though i dont agree with most of you, i can still *sort of understand your positions.....that is what makes humans so interesting.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

also, there seems to be a lot of people with the notion that all religions are basically the same, dealing with the same "entities" interpreted in different ways, etc. etc.

i see where they are coming from on a few of the religions, but disagree 100%.

many forms of buddhism dont believe in _any_ gods or supernatural, many religions are completely polytheistic, some believe in spirits, or gods that are on-par with humans rather than being omnipotent, etc.

in my opinion, you cant really try to draw a line between all of these religions and say that they are all basically the same thing, because they arent.

a good bit of them are also completely and utterly mutually exclusive.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

dracofish said:


> I still want to know how anyone can say that the millions of people that were around _before_ the Old Testament and even the ones that were never exposed to it went to Hell. Also, even today, if I lived under a rock and had never heard of the Bible, would I go to Hell? Seems pretty foolish to say that.


 why is it foolish if thats the way it is? It sucks, and its not fair.....but just because it is those 2 things doesnt automagically make it untrue and foolish.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> why is it foolish if thats the way it is? It sucks, and its not fair.....but just because it is those 2 things doesnt automagically make it untrue and foolish.


i agree with you xenon believe it or not, since IMO you have to consider all possibilities.

needless to say, i dont buy into the notion (christianity) even a fraction of a percent, but that is beside the point.

however! you also have to apply your principles evenly and admit that it is also *possible that you yourself might endure some bad karma, or a poor reincarnation after you die.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

> needless to say, i dont buy into the notion (christianity) even a fraction of a percent, but that is beside the point.


you have made this abundantly clear.



> however! you also have to apply your principles evenly and admit that it is also *possible that you yourself might endure some bad karma, or a poor reincarnation after you die.


My statement was not made for the notion of considering all possibilities. In my mind there is only one possibility so your line of thinking does not directly correlate to mine. There is no reason to "apply my [your] principles" evenly because they are not my principles at all. I didnt make the rules.

Therefore it is in fact impossible for me to endure some bad karma (taken from a religious perspective) or poor reincarnation because these aspects simply dont exist.

On the argument of free will however, I also believe it doesnt truly exist (I agree with Puma and PJ)


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

i misunderstood your post xenon, so disregard previous post.

somewhere deep inside of you, do you think it is short-sighted to say that people with no means to understand the christian god are going to burn in hell?

i have a friend whose little brother has cerebral palsy (sp?) and was told by their lutheran church many years ago that christopher (her little brother) would go to hell because .....and i quote- "he cant understand the concept of jesus"

needless to say, they never returned to that church.

i dont think that these 2 scenarios are too far removed...


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## jackburton (Nov 25, 2003)

OMG LOOK WHAT I HAVE STARTED 1 LAST THING

seeing is beliveing ....oh and there can never only b one theres allways more so why was there just jesus also there so many theorys to why it never happend


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

> somewhere deep inside of you, do you think it is short-sighted to say that people with no means to understand the christian god are going to burn in hell?


It is not up to me to determine what is short sighted or not. Again, I didnt make the rules.



> i have a friend whose little brother has cerebral palsy (sp?) and was told by their lutheran church many years ago that christopher (her little brother) would go to hell because .....and i quote- "he cant understand the concept of jesus"


It is no secret there are some bad churches out there that teach misguided things. In fact if you think about it, it is only natural that the "church" as a whole is not perfect as it is staffed by imperfect men.



> needless to say, they never returned to that church.


Probably a good decision.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

gosh i hope a bunch of lutherans dont start getting angry here, that is not what i intended to do.

i wasnt trying to take a shot at anyones denomination, it was purely coincidental.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

> seeing is beliveing ....


How unfortunate..











> oh and there can never only b one theres allways more so why was there just jesus


Why is there always more? Where did you hear of that?



> also there so many theorys to why it never happend


Exactly that, theories. I guess just because there are theories about something broadcasted on the Discovery channel, the actual event is false. Nice try skippy.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Puma said:


> i wasnt trying to take a shot at anyones denomination, it was purely coincidental.


 No apologies necessary, every one of my posts takes a shot at your "denomination" of atheism.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2004)

jackburton said:


> seeing is beliveing ....oh and there can never only b one theres allways more so why was there just jesus also there so many theorys to why it never happend



Do the bars open early in England? Just kidding. If I am interpretting your grammer correctly, you are saying there are theories as to why Jesus never excisted or rose from the dead.

The truth is, the excistence of Jesus and his crucification are historically verifiable facts. Whether you believe he was the son of God is a matter of faith.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Bullsnake said:


> [The truth is, the excistence of Jesus and his crucification are historically verifiable facts. Whether you believe he was the son of God is a matter of faith.


 Very well said! So many people deal with the issue of Jesus Christ by saying "Oh he never exsisted..." but it is historically accurate to say that Jesus walked on the earth, was crucified, and his body ended up missing.

The rest of what you believe or don't believe is up to you and a matter of faith. It is really that simple....and that difficult.

Puma - Some of the stuff that you are saying is so far off base, and your foundation for your argument is all based on your level of inteligence. You would have to admit that you are not the foundation for all knowledge...Am I correct? Then we cannot begin to make your statements fact based on your ability to make a point...the husband shooting his wife for starters.

You are making the statement that Christians don't have free will. I agree with you 100%...we don't have free will. I never said that we did. There are people out there that want to say "WE have the choice to choose God or deny him"...and this simply is not so!

Let me ask you this...if God himself came down to earth and spoke to you...GOD HIMSELF...would you be able to still deny him as being real and true? I think not. The same thing holds true for those that come to know him as believers. God calls us...we do not choose him. How arrogant for us as the created to think that we have the ability to choose or not choose the creator?!? This reasoning is crazy.

Does a lump of clay get to speak up and say whether or not it believes in the potter?!?!? Nope...it is made to serve a purpose that it was created for. IF I make a bowl out of clay and try to stick it under the hood of my mustang 5.0, it is going to work as an engine?

Christians have free will for every day choices that we make. God really does not care what we eat for lunch or what shirt we put on. But the free will that we have is given to us by the one that created us to start with. It is what is called limited free-will. The free-will is limited, but the choices that we have in that are not.

The next problem is that there are concequences for the choices that I make. If I decide to put a loaded gun to my head and pull the trigger, I have to live (or die) with the concequences. God did not make me do that, but in the realm of rules that have been created...if I pull the trigger with the loaded gun to my head...I die!

Free-will with limitations.

Hope this makes sense...if not, ask and I will try to clarify

Jeffrey


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

PastorJeff said:


> Free-will with limitations.


 this is some heavy stuff.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

micus said:


> PASTOR JEFF please tell me man , am i going to rot in hell or something , i mean im a pretty nice guy who has an open mind about everything , but i know litterally nothin about god/jesus, so am i hooped ???????


 Here is the foundation of the Christian faith in a nutshell...

1. Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Everybody sins...if you lie, you have sinned, if you cheat on a test...you have sinned. We are all sinners. Nobody is perfect. Nobody...not even Puma.









2. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life THORUGH Jesus Christ our Lord

Because we are all sinners, there is a payment for that sin, and that is death and eternal seperation from God...BUT...the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.

How do we get that eternal life...

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him (meaning Jesus and his death on the cross) will not perish, but have everlasting life (with God in heaven)

If you believe these things, you will be going to heaven. It is that simple. There is no requirement for giving money, or going to church, or saying "Hail Mary's" or anything like that.

If you don't believe these things...then the answer is no. The bottom line is that it is up to you to make the decision, not anyone else!

If you want to know more, PM me and we will talk.

Jeffrey


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## Fallenangel0210 (Dec 15, 2003)

Xenon said:


> dracofish said:
> 
> 
> > I still want to know how anyone can say that the millions of people that were around _before_ the Old Testament and even the ones that were never exposed to it went to Hell. Also, even today, if I lived under a rock and had never heard of the Bible, would I go to Hell? Seems pretty foolish to say that.
> ...


 as a catholic, since grade school, i have been taught of pergatory, a place where the souls of those departed before the Son of God opened the gates of heaven waited untill He rose
It was also explained as a place where people with who were hesitent toward God went, people not yet ready to be in his presence
hell was only for those who chose not to have God, who wanted to be seperated.
I always say where exactly is this in the bible?? but that's the catholic spin on it

im sure God is smater then all of us, he knows why we believe the way we do, and he alone choses where we go. no rule is made saying a mentally handicaped person will go to hell, or that a child in africa who starved to death yesterday, with no knowledge of God or Jesus will


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

I definately believe that Jesus did exist, and was a very powerful person made into a martyr, but that's about as far as it goes for me. Many religions have myths of immaculate conceptions, virgin births, and resurrections, so Christians aren't special in the aspect.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Didn't the Catholic Church give up the idea of Purgatory a long time ago? I also seem to remember learning in history class that putting money in the tithe jar would allow a soul to leave Purgatory and pop into Heaven...LOL.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Yeah, PJ, what is the churchs modern stance on purgatory? I am pretty sure it was dismissed....


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> Let me ask you this...if God himself came down to earth and spoke to you...GOD HIMSELF...would you be able to still deny him as being real and true? I think not.


god _himself_ ? you say that *I* am the one so certain, yet you claim to know the gender of some invisible "dude" of the sky?

i would not deny a creator if he/she/it were to "come down" and present themselves, what do you take me for?

the fact remains that this has NOT happened, just as pink elephants have not been found, so i dont believe in them......

those who _believe_ are faced with the burden of proof, not people like me. using your logic i could presume that you are all morons for not believing in my pink elephants on the grounds that you cannot "prove" that they DONT exist.

people do not form their beliefs on things that they cannot PROVE do NOT exist, that is ridiculous.



> The same thing holds true for those that come to know him as believers


i agree, just as buddhists come to know the teachings of the buddha, wiccans the wicca, hindus, jews, etc. you dont have a monopoly on "personal" experience with your god.



> and your foundation for your argument is all based on your level of inteligence.


i dont know if this was meant to insult me, but who says you have to be "intelligent" to disbelieve in fairy tales and invisible friends?

take the emperors new clothes for example:

all of the villagers pretended to see the emperors new outfit, but even a young child could see that he was naked......THAT is how i feel about your religion, and it doesnt take a large degree of intelligence to understand that it doesnt make any sense.



> Does a lump of clay get to speak up and say whether or not it believes in the potter?!?!?


no, it does not, though i am told that flaming bushes talk, both donkeys and snakes are capable of speech, people walk on a body of water, and lots of other fun and excitement with the bible.



> You would have to admit that you are not the foundation for all knowledge...Am I correct?


of course, why is there this idea that i as an atheist think i have all the answers? it is actually FOR this reason that i am an atheist! (partly anyway)

why do you think YOU have all of the answers when there are a million other religions out there that are equally viable?

ask that question of yourselves, not me.



> How arrogant for us as the created to think that we have the ability to choose or not choose the creator?!? This reasoning is crazy.


which creator? this statement makes no sense unless you specify what creator you are talking about.

personally i may be inclined to think YOU arrogant for denying everyone else's religion in favor of your own.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

> and your foundation for your argument is all based on your level of inteligence.


in retrospect, i suppose i should have said - thank you!

and i feel the same about you.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2004)

Puma, 
Why are you so bitter towards organized religon? Were your parents religous?


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

while we have this ball rolling -

since you asked me if god would come down, what i would do....which i DID answer, why dont you answer me this-

what would you do if several god(s) from the hindu faith came down and showed themselves to be the "true" gods?

would you drop your christianity on the pavement as i would my atheism?


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## Fallenangel0210 (Dec 15, 2003)

Xenon said:


> Yeah, PJ, what is the churchs modern stance on purgatory? I am pretty sure it was dismissed....


 dont forget that PasterJeff and me come from different demoninations of Christianity. To Catholics, the idea of purgatory is still upheald. The prevatican concepts of paying to get one out of purgatory isn't 
if anyone want to know the Catholic reasoning on this: Purgatory


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

yes, my family is southern baptist, and my younger brother is what you would call a "liberal" christian. i dont know what you are getting at, but i once again answered your question.

dont cofuse my lack of sharing your christian views with bitterness, i did not claim that any of you were bitter towards atheism did i? :smile:


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2004)

Puma said:


> yes, my family is southern baptist, and my younger brother is what you would call a "liberal" christian. i dont know what you are getting at, but i once again answered your question.
> dont cofuse my lack of sharing your christian views with bitterness, i did not claim that any of you were bitter towards atheism did i? :smile:


 I don't believe anybody is truly without faith. They wake up in the morning thinking, "What a big, happy accident. I'm a coloney of unicellular organisms whose sole intention is eating and reproduction".

I believe anybody who studies religon with the sole intent of disproving God, is unconsciously taking a circuitous route to discovering their own faith. I've seen it before.


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

i think there is definately a cycle too.

you are born atheistic, well duh.....you are also born without any knowledge of mathematics, etc. etc.

i think you tend to adhere to your parents religion either by force of choice.

then later, i think you either reject their religion or stay with it until you are pretty much dead.

i dont need a religion to give my life meaning, i find meaning for myself.



> I believe anybody who studies religon with the sole intent of disproving God, is unconsciously taking a circuitous route to discovering their own faith. I've seen it before.


possibly so, i have seen it before also.

there are also others who used to have faith, who eventually accept that they were only kidding themselves.........


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Puma said:


> what would you do if several god(s) from the hindu faith came down and showed themselves to be the "true" gods?
> 
> would you drop your christianity on the pavement as i would my atheism?


Puma - I am not sure why you are so horked off at this topic. NOTHING that I wrote was directed at you or your intelligence. It is a framework of or for debate. If you want to debate this and discuss it, I welcome that. IF you want to turn this into a flame war...I am not interested.

My comment is based on the fact that you are making statements of fact and truth based on YOUR perception of how things work...I am basing them on my belief in scripture. That is all that I was trying to say, and you took that as in insult. I apologize, but you seem very aggitated over this issue. If you want to be an atheist...go right ahead. I am not trying to convince you either way. I am just discussing this with you.

Sorry you seem so provoked. I will step away from this as to not anger you any further...

Jeffrey

P.S.

If several "gods" from Hindu faith came down and showed to me that they were the true way would I change? Of course! Who wouldn't...that is my point, and you solidified my stance with your answer.

BTW - there are not numerous "gods" in the hindu faith. You have Brahman who is considered "The Absolute" and he manifests himself in different ways, but it is only one God that is worshipped (this is mentioned many times in the Bhagavad-Gita and in the Vedas).


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Xenon said:


> Yeah, PJ, what is the churchs modern stance on purgatory? I am pretty sure it was dismissed....


The Evangelical Free Church does not accept or believe in the view of pergatory, and there is no mention of it in the cannonized scripture...none what so ever.

The word that many take for pergatory is the Hebrew word "Sheol" which is a HUGE place where they used to throw trash and whatnot to be burned up. It was an acutal place in history (much like a garbage dump today) but it is not a literal spiritual place where people go.

Translation run amok...and alot of this stemms from the human belief that there are different "levels" of sin. That murder is worse than lying or gossip. In our human eyes there is a difference, but in God's eyes...sin is sin. This is getting to be a big debate issue in the Catholic church.

I believe that the Catholic church still stands on the view of pergatory yet today. And last I knew, they still believed in the structured purchase of individuals out of pergatory as well!?!?!?!?!

Fallenangel - Thanks for the link! Very good reading! While the Catholic church and the Evangelical Church have their differences, on the issues of salvation...we stand the same! I think that is really cool!

Jeffrey


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

brahman isnt a `god` its like an attained stage viewed as divine intelligence from what I understand, like enlightenment (nirvana) to buddhism. Im not 100% sure, but im pretty sure brahman isnt a hindu god none the less.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Drew said:


> brahman isnt a `god` its like an attained stage viewed as divine intelligence from what I understand, like enlightenment (nirvana) to buddhism. Im not 100% sure, but im pretty sure brahman isnt a hindu god none the less.


 Drew - you are very correct! Lets put it this way...God is "The Absolute", a universal spirit. Everyone is a part of God (Brahman) like drops in the sea. Each one adds his part to make the whole. People worship manifestations of Brahman (different gods and goddesses). People are acutally a part of god (Brahman) but do not know it.

This manifestation reveals itself to people in different ways. While there are different "gods" they are all apart of the Brahman, and not an individual "god" themselves.

Hope that makes more sense.

Jeffrey


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## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

Just in case anybody cares to learn something new, check out this link on Gnosticism. This is very interesting to me, and I'm sure some here would also find it fascinating.


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

theres a pretty big dialogue floating around called "the buddhist christian" im not sure if its specifically about gnosticism its been a long time since ive read it, but im sure its related. ive been trying to find it since you mentioned gnosticism.

if you do research on christianity and buddhism, you will see some close relations, jesus was even recorded traveling to tibet for 15 years at one point i believe.. its possible he was a buddhist for a short time.


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Sounds a lot like what I've read about "Celtic Christianity" too...


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## Puma (Jan 27, 2004)

i took you wrong jeff, sorry about that.







one of the problems with internet translation.

the fact that you answered my question gives me a lot of respect for you, since most (probably 99 out of 100....seriously, no joke) that i have asked this question to either gave me a snooty retort, ignored it, or something like that.

i guess the only thing that was getting to me was the idea that morality is something that only christians hold.......

saying that atheists are "immoral" or that they only want to be able to "escape consequences for their actions" is absurd.

sheesh, i was planning on avoiding this topic entirely, but the post about "atheists only faking it until something traumatic happens" made me want to share MY opinon of it, so here we are X pages later.

im done with this one, if someone wants to say more to me, or flame me, or whatever take it to pm's.

peace


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## alvin (Jan 2, 2003)

You are all worthless and weak. Now drop and give me twenty!


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## crazyklown89 (Aug 28, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> You know from most of the atheists Ive ever known, I think they were pretty funny. They'd claim they were atheist but as soon as a family member or someone they loved and cared about deeply ended up in a hospital in critcial condition or anything equally severe, they would suddenly change their mind and start believing in God. I never did understand that. Again, this is just with most atheist's Ive met..Im not saying all.










I don't see what's so funny about someone's loved one dying and then praying to God....even if they are hypocrites deep trauma like that will cause someone's views and personality to change, my friend's dad died 3 days ago and I saw him today, not the same person at all....


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## x-J-x (Nov 28, 2002)

I'm a Roman Catholic...need my religion to guide my conscience sometimes...but I don't always belived everything in the bible...church every Sundays


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## sweet lu (Oct 3, 2003)

why do anthenis beleavein that they have no religon but they are beleving in not beleaving :rock:

nothing against it, just wondering


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## InIndiana (Nov 6, 2003)

Lu I'll pretend to not notice your stupidity. Honestly about that Hindu god question, I would not convert. I really think that people who say they have no religion have not given any effort to try to believe. Just wait till something momentous in your life happens. I cannot see my life not being overseen by a higher power. That isn't just me.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Puma said:


> i took you wrong jeff, sorry about that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 No problem, and this can continue as a discussion...I just do not want to offend. I am not one that believes that you are immoral becasue you are an atheist....that is just plain ignorance.

The only difference between you and me, is that I believe in God, and you do not. Beyond that, there is no difference (other than I might be better looking...but that is another thread







)

If I as a Christian were to smug you off or treat you like you are less for what you believe (or don't believe) then my Christianity is nothing more than a joke that is played out through my actions.

I don't care what anyone believes. It is not the foundation of my friendship with you, or my desire to communicate with you on P-Fury. It is a difference of faith, and that is all it is.

Let me ask you this...and it is not a flame, but further discussion...if you do not believe in a higher power, then what is there after death? Or do you feel that we live, die, and that is the end?

Curious...I have a buddy that is an atheist and he states that when he dies...that is it. He expects no more and no less.

I consider you a friend...thanks for the conversations!

Jeffrey


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## InIndiana (Nov 6, 2003)

As a reply to Pj's last post, I can't see an afterlife of just nothing. I believe in an afterlife and if I repent, I shouldn't fear Death because there is nothing to fear but to be with God. Just talking about being with God makes me happy. I may sound like a wuss, but this little wussy going to heaven. EDIT FOR LU's post: Read my posts in context, higher power is the God i believe in.


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

PastorJeff said:


> Curious...I have a buddy that is an atheist and he states that when he dies...that is it. He expects no more and no less.


 thats what I believed when I was "atheist". I think thats what most believe.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Drew said:


> thats what I believed when I was "atheist". I think thats what most believe.


 Generally an atheist does not believe in any form/sort of higher power in the form of God (or any kind of God for that matter)

An agnostic is someone that believes in a higher power, but is not at the point that they acknowlege any specific person (God, Allah, Budda, etc)

And then there are all kinds of hybred beliefs in between.

Religion can get so goofy sometimes....

Jeffrey


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## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

PastorJeff said:


> An agnostic is someone that believes in a higher power, but is not at the point that they acknowlege any specific person (God, Allah, Budda, etc)


Just a little off here.

An Agnostic is somebody who will neither deny or acknowledge a higher being. Most Agnostics believe that the presence of a higher being is something that is unknowable to any human.


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

scarfish said:


> Just a little off here.
> 
> An Agnostic is somebody who will neither deny or acknowledge a higher being. Most Agnostics believe that the presence of a higher being is something that is unknowable to any human.


 So then what is the difference, by your definition, of an agnostic verses an atheist?

Jeffrey


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## Blacksheep (Dec 11, 2003)

Scarfish - I stand corrected! Good call, my friend!

Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik

Function: noun

Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know -- more at KNOW

: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

_____________________________

Thanks for the clarification! I have been using an off definition for a couple of years now...









Jeffrey


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## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

PastorJeff said:


> scarfish said:
> 
> 
> > Just a little off here.
> ...


 An Atheist ( I was once one myself) adamantly denies the existence of a deity or higher being. An Agnostic on the other hand, will neither deny or acknowledge such a being. Basically when someone says they're an Agnostic, they're saying "I don't know."


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## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

PastorJeff said:


> _____________________________
> 
> Thanks for the clarification! I have been using an off definition for a couple of years now...
> 
> ...


 No problem. It's funny, agnostic is derived from the Greek meaning 'unknowable'. 
I am currently an Agnostic.
However, right now I am studying Gnosticism, which is Greek for 'all knowing'.

I am just moving right on up.


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## Gordeez (Sep 21, 2003)

I used to go to church, till I moved out on my own.
Now, I pray To Jack.
Havent been to church since.
I believe in god, But to me, honestly, that religion thing doesnt sit
too good with me. I beleive in god, But not Religion.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Gordeez said:
 

> I used to go to church, till I moved out on my own.
> Now, I pray To Jack.
> Havent been to church since.
> I believe in god, But to me, honestly, that religion thing doesnt sit
> too good with me. I beleive in god, But not Religion.


 so what does this make you? Im sure there is a word for this......


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## Bluegill (Nov 28, 2003)

Pastor Jeff and Scarfish, I glaad you guys got that straightened out. I myself was once an atheist. I thought that people's blind faith in a divine being was ludicrous. How can you possibly know something without proof. At some point I realized, that there was no proof that there wan't a divine being or beings, and that my reasons for being atheist was just a tad hypocritical.

Now I count myself as an agnostic, I neither deny nor affirm the existence of a god or gods. I cannot believe in the main premise of either point of view. That being said, I bear no animosity towards those who have faith in one thing or the other. I myself have been brushing up on Buddhist and Taoist literature of late.

P.S. Xenon, other than the "Jack" part, it sounds like Gordeez is a Deist.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

Bluegill said:


> P.S. Xenon, other than the "Jack" part, it sounds like Gordeez is a Deist.


 thanks!


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