# wild maculatus



## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

Have'nt done major dry/rainy season simulation yet, just good feeding and constant water changes. Notice the color of the two up front, they darkenrd first, probably males. The onee in the back is the fish on the right fronts potential mate. She and the other female you can't see have the swollen bellies full of eggs! Pretty soon I'll devote more time to this project!


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## mashunter18 (Jan 2, 2004)

Good luck Trebor, Mine just did the same thing, I had a full nest built, dark colors, and a pair, they never finished the deal..........

These wild fish are alot harder to breed... only thing i did was some tempature adjustments, water changes, didnt do a whole dry season deal.........


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

When it comes close to breeding watch for aggression. S.Maculatus is an extremely aggressive spawning fish. Azuma makes notes of having to separate and re-introduce the fish to encourage breeding. I have a large group, and it's not uncommon to see all the fish stripped of their fins when breeding.

Watch your fish. It's better to fail and retain the pair, than push and loose a fish.

There is no concrete proof that their aggression may diminish with age. But that's what I have notice. 1.5 to 3 year old S.Maculatus were vicious as hell. Mine will be 4 years old this February. They are 8 inches Plus in length. They just spawned for me, and it was very passive.

Good luck.


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## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

serrasalmus_collector said:


> When it comes close to breeding watch for aggression. S.Maculatus is an extremely aggressive spawning fish. Azuma makes notes of having to separate and re-introduce the fish to encourage breeding. I have a large group, and it's not uncommon to see all the fish stripped of their fins when breeding.
> 
> Watch your fish. It's better to fail and retain the pair, than push and loose a fish.
> 
> ...


I have already noticed this! When the males first started darkening the tank was aquascaped differently. I had one of the males encroaching on the other, which resulted in damaged sides from biting, and fin nips. No deathlike agression on the whole ! The male/female interaction is a whole other story! The male on the right and the female you can see get agressive. Or should I say the MALE gets agressive. He has damaged all the females fins in trying to coax her around.They have been in a constant state of repair. I am seriously thinking of trying Azuma's methods, the separation and reintroduction. This way I wouldn't have to worry about involving other fish. My fish are all around 6 inches, so there probably is some agression to come.


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## mashunter18 (Jan 2, 2004)

Oh yeah dude, mine got tore up, even one got killed, I had 5 now I have 4......The pair so to speak, the male was so dark, he chased the others I finally figured out what I belive is the female, he would get up next to her, and dart back to the nest, she never would go over there, he would put his head up towards the top of the tank, and tail by the gravel kind of shake and the female would play a little, but would not go to the nest,.....sucks....Im moving in a few weeks, ill have a nice set up fish room, maybe focus on these fish some more.........

Dont the females get dark also??? Azuma photos show a very dark female...I never had that, but his took 18 days to breed.. sometimes
A simple water change seemed to kill mine, funny thing is a gravel vac, temp change and slight water change chemistry started it

Good luck Trebor, hopefully you can pull it off


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## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

No , my females have yet to darken. All I have noticed is their bellies have swelled about the end of last year. This happened when they were divided , and feeding changes didn't make their stomach get thinner.The changes in the males happened when I moved them to the 75 gal they are in now. I felt they sensed the change in water quality. I'm looking forward in comparing notes with you on this one Matt. Maybe we BOTH can pull this off!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Hiroshe Azuma is indeed the best overall authority on this species and well documented breeder of many other "rare" piranhas. Many of which are not in print for all to read. I would certainly follow his lead and utilize what you have learned from other pfury members on breeding this species.


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## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

hastatus said:


> Hiroshe Azuma is indeed the best overall authority on this species and well documented breeder of many other "rare" piranhas. Many of which are not in print for all to read. I would certainly follow his lead and utilize what you have learned from other pfury members on breeding this species.
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I have read your reprint of Azuma's sucess with maculatus many times over. I have things ready for isolation and reintroduction, just wondered on the size of the isolation aquariums?


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## mashunter18 (Jan 2, 2004)

hastatus said:


> Hiroshe Azuma is indeed the best overall authority on this species and well documented breeder of many other "rare" piranhas. Many of which are not in print for all to read. I would certainly follow his lead and utilize what you have learned from other pfury members on breeding this species.
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Frank the man is back...
















you know Frank breed these fish also , And I dont think he did to much, put the right pair together.

I have a thread in the aquaria forum where I was keeping update of my golds together for eveyone to see, that is my goal for putting them together is to breed them. Im not sure if mine are old enough though, they are 5-6", I was really going to go at it next spring , I was just trying a few tricks to see if anything would happen.

I may really have to try this again when I move...


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## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

mashunter18 said:


> hastatus said:
> 
> 
> > Hiroshe Azuma is indeed the best overall authority on this species and well documented breeder of many other "rare" piranhas. Many of which are not in print for all to read. I would certainly follow his lead and utilize what you have learned from other pfury members on breeding this species.
> ...


Yeah, I remember when Frank's bred. He did'nt say alot about it after the spawned. He had 3 in 2/3's of a 55 gal right? I think the water change works wonders on these fish! When I free up some tankspace I'll definately try Azuma's methods on my potential pairs!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I didn't write much on the species breeding in my tanks because Azuma covers it quite well with photos of eggs to subadults. I gave the pair away to another hobbyist here in the Roseburg area who has bred fishes before. Evidently there's been a rumor flying that S. maculatus would not be made available in Oregon which is pure bunk. Evidently there is someone out there in hobbyland that thinks they have the market cornered.







They are shipped in quite frequently from wholesale dealers to area pet store. They are NOT a big item as most prefer the more harder to obtain fish (S. geryi for example).

I also have the original articles by Azuma but have not released them to the public. No time and basically all that is needed to know is what is already posted at the web site. One thing for certain I can tell you, once your fish breed they tend to repeat the cycle quite regularly unless disturbed.

What I can tell you is this, I kept the fish separated by divider until I finally removed the divider 6 months later when I noted the fishes were coloring up quite a bit. The male tended to be much darker in coloration while the female stayed about the same less intense color. The male guarded the nesting area while the female stayed away. They spawned on 4 separate occasion and wigglers were seen on the bottom of the tank. I never syphoned them out and just left them there because I don't have tank space for such a venture. Hence my donating them to another individual that had better facilities.


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## mashunter18 (Jan 2, 2004)

hastatus said:


> I didn't write much on the species breeding in my tanks because Azuma covers it quite well with photos of eggs to subadults. I gave the pair away to another hobbyist here in the Roseburg area who has bred fishes before. *Evidently there's been a rumor flying that S. maculatus would not be made available in Oregon which is pure bunk.* Evidently there is someone out there in hobbyland that thinks they have the market cornered.
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Oh my god Thats hilarious Frank...














I know Pedro and George will send fish to Oregan. I work with some wholesalers who always have these small golds in stock and they send all over the country daily. There is a fella in Indiana that breeds these alot, IV never meet him, but one wholesaler has these and what I think is sanchezi as tank breeds all the time, says a guy in Indiana breeds them. He also breeds some rare tetras apparently....Could be here say, but iv seen the little ones, more then once.

So these guys can be like reds then, once they get going you can have batches alot. I really want my next species to be "wild caught" and breed.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I thought some of you would get a kick out of that rumor. Amazing things I found in my inbox during my absence.









I'm still wading through some past PM's I have not read and emails that are still sitting in my hotmail. I need another vacation.


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## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

Thanks for the info on female coloration. Matt and I were wondering about this, as my two females never really darkened.Frank, I was also wondering , were your fish wild or captive raised? I really think that "hobbyist"







has some anger issues when it comes to you Frank, or is it the state of Oregon in general?


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

nubsmoke said:


> Thanks for the info on female coloration. Matt and I were wondering about this, as my two females never really darkened.Frank, I was also wondering , were your fish wild or captive raised? I really think that "hobbyist"
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if you dont like him dont use his site.
wes


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## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

PIRANHA KING said:


> nubsmoke said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the info on female coloration. Matt and I were wondering about this, as my two females never really darkened.Frank, I was also wondering , were your fish wild or captive raised? I really think that "hobbyist"
> ...


Who are you referring to? I was making reference to the "hobbyist" Frank was talking about. I know who he means, do you?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

It's nice to know some folks "think" they know who I'm talking about. It's not always one person in general.







The "ONLY" site I visit regularly when I am on line is PFURY and Waterwolves. These two sites are the only ones that give me personal satisfaction because they have the most knowledgeable people on line. The rest of the "forums" are basically redundant spinoff's from these 2 sites. I wish them well, but they basically copy the two primary forums sited above. All one has to really do is look at the forum list topics and other "goodies" they promote. Nothing wrong with copying as it is the highest form of flattery. For me to visit sites as PK suggests, is well, non-productive. Besides, in my opinion, just clicking on another site is like being on Piranha.org. Only thing that has changed is the member list and skin color of the site and banners. So I see no constructive point in visiting or joining those additional sites because to me, that is ego boosting and name recognition. So I refrain and just stay with this primary site which is PFURY. Afterall, I'm just in it here for the hobby, otherwise, I'd be pushing my name and OPEFE in ALL THE FORUMS. Not worth it to me as my value as a member is limited here. Much of what I have read on other forums is nothing more than gathered data from OPEFE or some other science forum they have visited. While it is good they are passing on information, most don't have a clue what they are discussing. But they are at least "trying".

And while it is true some folks need anger management or in some cases psyche help from professionals, we are in a hobby. And that is all I see it as. Personally, I find confrontations boring and non-productive. Holding one person as a "god" is also non-productive. As I have stated many times in the past, just because one person is vocal in their breeding project does not mean they hold the only card in the breeding program. As Piranha King comments, he is a valuable contributor to PFURY. And that is all I look at it and ignore the negatives that occasionally surface.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

hastatus said:


> It's nice to know some folks "think" they know who I'm talking about. It's not always one person in general.:laugh: The "ONLY" site I visit regularly when I am on line is PFURY and Waterwolves. These two sites are the only ones that give me personal satisfaction because they have the most knowledgeable people on line. *The rest of the "forums" are basically redundant spinoff's from these 2 sites.* I wish them well, but they basically copy the two primary forums sited above. All one has to really do is look at the forum list topics and other "goodies" they promote. Nothing wrong with copying as it is the highest form of flattery. For me to visit sites as PK suggests, is well, non-productive. Besides, in my opinion, just clicking on another site is like being on Piranha.org. Only thing that has changed is the member list and skin color of the site and banners. So I see no constructive point in visiting or joining those additional sites because to me, that is ego boosting and name recognition. So I refrain and just stay with this primary site which is PFURY. Afterall, I'm just in it here for the hobby, otherwise, I'd be pushing my name and OPEFE in ALL THE FORUMS. Not worth it to me as my value as a member is limited here. Much of what I have read on other forums is nothing more than gathered data from OPEFE or some other science forum they have visited. While it is good they are passing on information, most don't have a clue what they are discussing. But they are at least "trying".
> 
> And while it is true some folks need anger management or in some cases psyche help from professionals, we are in a hobby. And that is all I see it as. Personally, I find confrontations boring and non-productive. Holding one person as a "god" is also non-productive. As I have stated many times in the past, just because one person is vocal in their breeding project does not mean they hold the only card in the breeding program. As Piranha King comments, he is a valuable contributor to PFURY. And that is all I look at it and ignore the negatives that occasionally surface.
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This is truly a very interesting topic. To shed some light on S.Maculatus, they are not a difficult fish to breed for me. Yet all books on breeding will give them the classification of extremely difficult to breed. No discredit against your words Frank, but perhaps there is a reason the books classify them as extremely difficult, and reds difficult (They are copyrighted books, you probably possess them.). Azuma has done much work, P-Fury, and the OPEFE site are decent sites. But to view every other predatory sites as a direct spin off is very close minded. I personally moderate piranha sections on more than one board. The more boards, I see, the happier I become. This shows much individuality, and passion to reach out to the world; to share the ideas and members personal experiences. It also gives the hobbyist diversity in their on-line experience. I personally bred the S.Maculatus without the help of this board or OPEFE. I had been here a month or so and they bred for me. This will unquestionably validate no site is required to learn about piranhas or bred the fish this topic implies. I have no ill will to anyone one here, and typically try to help all people on any board I can; that in my opinion is an online hobbyist.

I will get back to the topic and shed some personal information about the breeding of S.Maculatus. This is not the work of anyone but personal hobbyist experience.

I have had success in bare bottom tanks, on the tops of under gravel filters, in plants, in spawning meshes, and now in a tank filled with sand. This is definitely no discredit to Azuma who bred the fish he called Gibbus, latter to be S.Spilopleura, and now S.Maculatus. I have also bred the fish in a PH from 7.0 to 6.2. They have been bred in currents, and still moving tanks. Sorry to become redundant with the word "I" But just sharing personal experiences. My fish always breed in colonies of 5 or more, and never have any form of coverage in the tank. These fish have been in my possession for over 3.5 years. I started with 12 fish, and now there are 9. I have personally never used any form of separation that Azuma used (It makes sense, I didn't know about this site or OPEFE; when I outlined a breeding plan). He had success with his methods, and is worthy of quoting. I on the other hand have only bred them about 11 times consecutively for the past 2 years. Each time they breed for me I share more and more information about the occurrence. Using basic statistics of those who have tried, and have had success; this is still classified a rare occurrence in the hobbyist tank. Those who have and don't share obviously can't be equated into the statistical matrix, they may be more than mere hobbyist like us.. Perhaps all who have any from of repeatability, and share online should be referenced; If not there is always google, and teoma.

Every condition mentioned that this species has bred for me under; I have pictures and many videos to validate. More people should listen to what hobbyists are doing, instead of exalting people who have obviously moved on to much more complex species. It is the hobbyist who truly frequents this board. Aquatic science has evolved alot since the breedings done by Azuma, this in theory will validate much more ways to achieve the same result.

I belive you have personally bred them in a much smaller tank than the work or Azuma. This shows hobbyist information if vauable

Personal note to you Frank in regard to my fish breeding, and Azuma. I never lost a S.Macualtus to breeding, and there is no sepperation ever. It is understandible piranhas are very unpredictable, but still ironic.


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## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

OK, it's nice to see you and Alan communicate, but could we go back to talking about breeding WILD macs?







And Frank, when you have Alan saying he will NEVER ship to Oregon, and you make reference to a "hobbyist" who thinks he's cornered the market on maculatus, what is an intelligent person to think?


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> nubsmoke Posted Today, 07:18 PM
> OK, it's nice to see you and Alan communicate, but could we go back to talking about breeding WILD macs? And Frank, when you have Alan saying he will NEVER ship to Oregon, and you make reference to a "hobbyist" who thinks he's cornered the market on maculatus, what is an intelligent person to think?


Alan is not shipping to Oregon? And that means what to me? I don't buy piranhas so that has no impact on me whatsoever. But nice try on the "attempt" to make a connection.



> serrasalmus_collector Posted Today, 07:01 PM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Sep 5 2005, 10:04 PM)
> It's nice to know some folks "think" they know who I'm talking about. It's not always one person in general.:laugh: The "ONLY" site I visit regularly when I am on line is PFURY and Waterwolves. These two sites are the only ones that give me personal satisfaction because they have the most knowledgeable people on line. The rest of the "forums" are basically redundant spinoff's from these 2 sites. I wish them well, but they basically copy the two primary forums sited above. All one has to really do is look at the forum list topics and other "goodies" they promote. Nothing wrong with copying as it is the highest form of flattery. For me to visit sites as PK suggests, is well, non-productive. Besides, in my opinion, just clicking on another site is like being on Piranha.org. Only thing that has changed is the member list and skin color of the site and banners. So I see no constructive point in visiting or joining those additional sites because to me, that is ego boosting and name recognition. So I refrain and just stay with this primary site which is PFURY. Afterall, I'm just in it here for the hobby, otherwise, I'd be pushing my name and OPEFE in ALL THE FORUMS. Not worth it to me as my value as a member is limited here. Much of what I have read on other forums is nothing more than gathered data from OPEFE or some other science forum they have visited. While it is good they are passing on information, most don't have a clue what they are discussing. But they are at least "trying".
> 
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Sorry, most of the authors you cite with the exception of Azuma have never bred piranhas, much less kept them as "pets" they just write about them for the $$$'s or avoidence of being sued by Axelrod. But if those are your sources and consider them "facts". Well have it. I have no problems with it. The rest of what you write is atypical Alan, so I'll ignore it. If you glean help from those other forums then enjoy them. That's all I can say. They don't do much for me because from where I sit, its recycled material. Sort of like talking about guppy's over and over again that they swim and breed live fish........Duh. I'm not a beginner level. But if you are then have at it.

The rest of the comments remind me of a used car salesman.









Anyway, let's all get back on the original topic.


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## serrasalmus_collector (Mar 9, 2003)

nubsmoke said:


> OK, it's nice to see you and Alan communicate, but could we go back to talking about breeding WILD macs?
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I will have information on wild Maculatus breeding hopefully in the next 2 weeks. I currently have a wild diminished pigmentation S.Maculatus nest building with an F1 captive bred. I breed for fun and to learn. *Reference to me not selling to Oregon.* Here is why. I live in the mid-west and currently have a minimum of 20 pet shops, and a few dozen hobbyists interested in my stock. I am no dealer, and don't choose to risk shipping fish over long distances. Michigan, Ohio, and Illinois are more than enough territory for me to ship what few fish I produce. There are many large fish distributors who are affiliate with this forum, they specialize in what I consider long distance shipping. If there is any true implication to me cornering the market with a fish, then I must laugh like Frank







. That is a physical impossibility, and I am very logical person.

Ultimately they are my fish, and I do have a right to distribute where I feel the fish will survive a shipment. I am a hobbyist who loves piranhas.


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## nubsmoke (Feb 4, 2004)

I was'nt attempting anything Frank. The last time both you and Alan were corresponding in a breeding thread of mine, it went south quick.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

ww and pfury arent the only 2 real sites, wake up. 
wes


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

On second thought, its a waste of my time with the back and forth. Particularly since its the same two driving the same old drama. Let the topic return to its original post.


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## 33truballa33 (Oct 18, 2004)

*sigh* somethings never change.. gone for a while and the bickering never ends. i just wonder y i never saw any pics of ur fry frank. alan shows pics all the time and u still have to be negative towards him and make these lil comments that we have argued about over and over. u say u dont like bickering but u always gotta start it with ur lil comments. i kno ur going to go on a long tangent about this and that but you are the one that starts it then try to act like the bigger man with your "let the topic return to its original post". its old man if alan says somethign let it go as he does with you but dont take cheap shots and degrade other sites. i thought mike talked to you about this but i guess u still do wut u want.

NOW the thread can get back on track


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

frank you are the immature one who is taking cheapshots. grow up.
wes


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> 33truballa33 Posted Yesterday, 10:33 AM
> *sigh* somethings never change.. gone for a while and the bickering never ends. i just wonder y i never saw any pics of ur fry frank. alan shows pics all the time and u still have to be negative towards him and make these lil comments that we have argued about over and over. u say u dont like bickering but u always gotta start it with ur lil comments. i kno ur going to go on a long tangent about this and that but you are the one that starts it then try to act like the bigger man with your "let the topic return to its original post". its old man if alan says somethign let it go as he does with you _but dont take cheap shots and degrade other sites. i_ thought mike talked to you about this but i guess u still do wut u want.
> 
> NOW the thread can get back on track


Look clueless, I did not take cheap shots at other sites. I said I don't visit other sites because they are redundant. Get some comprehension skills dork.



> PIRANHA KING Posted Yesterday, 10:43 AM
> frank you are the immature one who is taking cheapshots. grow up.
> wes


Same goes to you too.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

Lastly, Alan does not need his membership to come here and "defend him". There was nothing in Alan's reply to suggest he was upset with anything I wrote. Contrary, he agreed with me that anyone suggesting they cornered a market with being unrealistic. So in closing, you dudes from the other site need to get a life.


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

hastatus said:


> Lastly, Alan does not need his membership to come here and "defend him". There was nothing in Alan's reply to suggest he was upset with anything I wrote. Contrary, he agreed with me that anyone suggesting they cornered a market with being unrealistic. So in closing, you dudes from the other site need to get a life.
> [snapback]1183007[/snapback]​


hey jerky boy his membership? i have over 2000 posts here and less than 100 there. i love NO LINKS ALLOWED but i also love p-fury and spend most of my time here. 
wes


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## Piranha King (Nov 28, 2002)

and i didnt take any cheapshots i came right out and said what i wanted and made it clear who i was talking to and about. i'm a man, i can't say the same for you mr wannabe scientist with no credentials.
wes


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> PIRANHA KING Posted Today, 09:05 AM
> QUOTE(hastatus @ Sep 7 2005, 10:45 AM)
> Lastly, Alan does not need his membership to come here and "defend him". There was nothing in Alan's reply to suggest he was upset with anything I wrote. Contrary, he agreed with me that anyone suggesting they cornered a market with being unrealistic. So in closing, you dudes from the other site need to get a life.
> 
> hey jerky boy his membership? i have over 2000 posts here and less than 100 there. i love NO LINKS ALLOWED but i also love p-fury and spend most of my time here.


Is that the best you can write???







You still are clueless and lack comprehension skills. Try reading my quote again s-l-o-w-ly or have some other educated adult explain it to you.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> PIRANHA KING Posted Today, 09:07 AM
> and i didnt take any cheapshots i came right out and said what i wanted and made it clear who i was talking to and about. i'm a man, i can't say the same for you mr wannabe scientist with no credentials.
> wes


1. You don't need credentials to be an expert on piranhas. You have to be recognized as an expert by your peers. In the State of Oregon, authorities recognize me as the state expert on Piranhas. Among scientists (credentialed), I'm recognized also as an expert on piranhas. On a hobbyist board like this one or somewhere else even your No Solicitation Allowed, all you need is a good ability to BS.

2. Didn't take any cheapshots? You really are zoned out aren't you?









Gotta run, need to meet a man about a fish.


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