# theology (Relegion)



## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

I just like to educate my self honeslty and accept the facts that took place on this world. Instead of thinking it most be a myth or a legend.
like God and his prophets.

I find this topic interesting.
But yet ont of the hated topics to speak about.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Its not hated. Just not a widely accepted idea. It is a controversial issue. We've had threads like these in the past.


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

Go-rilla said:


> I just like to educate my self honeslty and accept the facts that took place on this world. Instead of thinking it most be a myth or a legend.
> like God and his prophets.
> 
> I find this topic interesting.
> But yet ont of the hated topics to speak about.


 i know im asking for trouble, but what the heck, ill join the religion argument.










what makes you think that God and his prophets are a myth.just because you can't prove it? thats what religion is all about, its about faith in something we can't prove, but we belive it to be true.

im not one who follows any religion blindly, and I haven't found a religion I 100% belive in(cathlic,prodistian,adventist..etc) but i am a christian.


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## Joker (May 19, 2003)

The thing I find funny about religion is that arent religious people supposed to be kind, sharring and everything else ? But why should I choose one religion over another ? All are pretty much the same right ? worship a higher being ? I dont care for going to church, unless it for a wedding or even worse, a funeral. I will not even tell my kids they need to. A good arguement I always have is, Why is heaven better than hell ? Why should I worship God on not worship Satan ? Dont get me wrong I am not a devil worshiper. Many people I talk to about this beleive in God, but dont beleive in the devil ? Those people are friggin fakes !! Even God himself beleives in the Devil. If he didnt beleive in him he would have no worries about "saving our souls" Why not go to hell ? I mean C'mon guys do you really think all the hot porno chicks are going to heaven ?







Well thats enough from me.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

nitrofish said:


> ....its about faith in something we can't prove, but we belive it to be true.
> 
> im not one who follows any religion blindly


 that sounds _so_ contradictory


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

I myself believe in only what is Tangible. Anything that has no roots in tangibility, I consider nonsense. Hence, I am an atheist


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Joker said:


> The thing I find funny about religion is that arent religious people supposed to be kind, sharring and everything else ?


They can be if they choose to. Thats why, in my religeon anyway, Jesus died for our sins. He knew as well as God that no one is perfect, kind, or sharring all the time.



Joker said:


> But why should I choose one religion over another ? All are pretty much the same right ? worship a higher being ?


Not hardly. When you generalize it like that...yes they all end up worshiping [a] higher being. For instance, Catholics have more stricter rules to follow by than Christians. Same goes with all other religeons and what you 'must' do in them.



Joker said:


> A good arguement I always have is, Why is heaven better than hell ?


Good argument?! Id beg to differ. Theres an obvious answer if you went to church at all or read the bible. If you like the feeling of being constantly burned then hell might be better than Heaven in your case. But I can say its not a place Id want to spend my eternity in.



Joker said:


> Even God himself beleives in the Devil.


God doesnt need to believe in the Devil to know he exsists. If you read the bible the Devil was actually an angel gone bad. So God made a place for him [hell] which would be the place where all bad people go.



Joker said:


> I mean C'mon guys do you really think all the hot porno chicks are going to heaven ?


Why do you got to bring porn in a religeon discussion...sheesh!







Do you really think theyll be worth anything in hell?


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

i didnt say it was a myth... it happend.
I look at it this way. myth is understood that we are unsure that evens toke place
on the other hand we know through science that things infact took place.
Atom down to Muhammed did walk the earth. Science backs these facts.

to Joker 
Any relegion that has good in it is from God. Christian, Jews , Muslim etc..
its just we all have to seek knowledge from where ever it comes from and true monotheism.

Piranha 
facts are tangible and it makes all the difference.
the scientist and scholars no this to be true.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Go-rilla said:


> i didnt say it was a myth... it happend.
> I look at it this way. myth is understood that we are unsure that evens toke place
> on the other hand we know through science that things infact took place.
> Atom down to Muhammed did walk the earth. Science backs these facts.
> ...


 The Bible itself is a historical document. Its made up of different stories through the eyes of many people. All stories are similar. History was written down in these documents. Maybe they may not be totally accurate...but Id say theyre accurate enough to justify my faith. Now are you saying youll believe in what some scientist tells you is true rather than a historical book? I mean science also says we come from apes. Id like to think we came from Adam and Eve. I dont care what science says. According to science we had 2 different hominids walking on Earth at the same time...even science can seem bogus to me.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> According to science we had 2 different hominids walking on Earth at the same time...even science can seem bogus to me.


what the hell is so "bogus" about that? its just as provable as any other finding by science. Date a neanderthal skull, then date a cro-magnon skull, and voila, they both date 30,000 yrs back

by the way, for those interested, my biology professor last semester brought this topic up, and currently science believes that the neanderthals were actually _exterminated_ by the newer human species. They believe this based on the evidence that all the neanderthals died out within a very very short amount of time. Pretty whack, huh?


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

Joker
im a muslim i believe in the true meaning of God, and who he is, and how he has no partnership with no one else. there is no one like him.
I read in the Koran where a whore was granted paradise when she stoped to feed a starving cat (verge of death)

Ms_Nattereri
If he died for a sins why is there still evil.
God gave us free will, so this life is our test. Because hell is pure punishment pure evil that the humen being cant comprehend its punishing attributes. Ive read where the only thing you would have to dirnk is Scolding hot water and to eat puss and scab type substanc... ( A large cut that is starting to heal. that scabby sh*t..)
In heaven youll be haveing fruits stake fine women for wives and studs for the women to take as your husbands.


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

Dont get me wrong i believe in the word of God
Science backs up relegions like Christians, Jews, Muslims

so i am a believer in God.


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Go-rilla said:


> Ms_Nattereri
> If he died for a sins why is there still evil.
> God gave us free will, so this life is our test. Because hell is pure punishment pure evil that the humen being cant comprehend its punishing attributes. Ive read where the only thing you would have to dirnk is Scolding hot water and to eat puss and scab type substanc... ( A large cut that is starting to heal. that scabby sh*t..)
> In heaven youll be haveing fruits stake fine women for wives and studs for the women to take as your husbands.


 He died for our sins so that they may be forgiven. He knew people were gonna do bad things...which is why he died for all the sins that he knew were gonna take place. However, if you read further on...one sin thats not forgivable is denying your faith in God and his exsistance because as he says, hes a jealous god.


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

I dont believe in evolution....
if it is true God willed it to happen i dont believe it any other way
The Big Bang could of happend but that would be they way God made it happen..
and Jesus is not God


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

gorilla, you are saying that science backs christianity and yet you are also saying you don't believe in evolution

you need to straighten out, organize, _and support_ your argument; your coming off as a dumbass

I guess your just a kid or something


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri
No one knows what another is thinking jesus couldn't do the things he did with out God telling him to do.
Jesus did not know what was going to happen...
if a new that i would have bolted.... for he isnt God.

God is God not Jesus peace be upon him.
monotheism

not polytheism more then one god..

you are write that is the biggest sin..
putting partnership with God

Jesus to some puts partnership with God.
The holy spirit is putting partnership to some.


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## thoroughbred (Mar 14, 2003)

OK THE toffee would like to enter this discussion i have a question now im not into religion really dont go to church and never read the bible etc.. but is there really a god? maybe ,maybe not i dont think its wrong for u to believe in a god or not but heres my point now maybe cause im a 20th century kid but i want facts or im gonna not totally believe it is that wrong? does that mean i dont have faith or goin to hell? i dont think so but as weird as it may sound to a few people i believe in evoulution u can loo at facts and see we eveoled from apes monkeys whatever its documented and it makes sense we evolved just like animals did the alligator is basically a dinoaur a shark used to be big as a mofo those are facts am i to believe every other animal evolved on this planet but humans? no it makes sense theres proof behind and no matter what reliogion u have ill take facts and numbers over a bible which was written by man and not all that accurate can u show me where jesus came back to life at? wheres the bones at? wheres the cross? but i can show where we eveoled through millions of yrs am i to believe noah actaully got a boat and had 2 of each animal on it? im sorry i dont believe that but i can prove we along with all animals eveoled over millions of yrs through fossils and carbon dating im sorry it sounds like a bunch of humans that had storeis to tell (the bible,koranetc..) but saying it cant be true but no one can prove it also whos to say it isnt just faiith and not real remember in school we studied mythology zeus,athena, and the rest and we were like whoa thats some weird stories they have but u guys have to realize mytholgy was a real religion not just stories, the greeks believed they were gods the same way we believe in gods now weknow those stories werent true whos to say our gods and stories (bible) arent the same thing? just my 2 cents but damn i make good points ahh beauty and smarts im the man lol


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

Piranha

people who just believe in science alone 9 times out of 10 dont have a relegion.
there socialist, Facist, Masons etc
i do Respect science and i do believe in God, but i dont believe in God threw sicence alone
to clarify things.

I grew up christian for 17 years and i recently converted to Islam

Big bang is a theory IF it did happen then God willed it to happen...


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

> Science backs up relegions like Christians, Jews, Muslims


since when?


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## thoroughbred (Mar 14, 2003)

Go-rilla said:


> Piranha
> 
> people who just believe in science alone 9 times out of 10 dont have a relegion.
> there socialist, Facist, Masons etc
> ...


 can u prove it u beleive god willed it to happen but u cant prove it i can rove we evoled as well as every other animal on this planet all u have is a book full of stories told n=by man religion is faith (which is fine) but u cant prove crap i sorry but its thr truth i need proof i can prove dinosaurs once ruled the earth i cant prove adam, eve and the apple come on that sounds like mythology just from different people just like zeus athena apollo and the likes i can prove humans came from point a to z


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

btw, whats rel*e*gion?

I assumed it was a typo, but ive seen it about 5 times now.


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

To thoroughbred

There are scientifical facts that back the bible and the Koran.
Phoroah was found... The scientist found him and it wasnt that long a go they should it on t.v.
Sadam and Gomorah. they found the place (you no where the city was filled whith gays that God plunderd the place) The Cross was just an execution tool like the gas chamber injection.. im sure its not priority number one to find list.
you dont need to see all the facts and events that happend in the bible. God didnt have ti disclose everything.

I dont believe Jesus died on the cross as we muslims dont believe that..
no one was there to see it at the time.
i think it was peter or paul who writes in the bible that he didnt see it. (the resurection of christ.)


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

thoroughbred said:


> the alligator is basically a dinoaur *a shark used to be big ass mofo* those are facts










Amen! ...


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

religion dude


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

Go-rilla said:


> religion dude


 a ha! typing phonetically are we?


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

Go-rilla said:


> Sadam and Gomorah. they found the place (you no where the city was filled whith gays that God plunderd the place) The Cross was just an execution tool like the gas chamber injection.. im sure its not priority number one to find list.
> you dont need to see all the facts and events that happend in the bible. God didnt have ti disclose everything.


 sodom and gomorrah









huh? sodom and gomorrah was burned down if i remember correctly, the cross was never a part of that, it was used to hang jesus....

(this coming from a non christian, honestly i dont even think ive read 'the bible' all the way through.)


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

why dont you guys come in the chatroom, this sux.


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## thoroughbred (Mar 14, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> thoroughbred said:
> 
> 
> > the alligator is basically a dinoaur *a shark used to be big ass mofo* those are facts
> ...


 huhms natt? ok gorilla i hear u and im not saying i dont believe in god but i have to have facts a few truths here and there in a book by man doesnt prove jack i want proof of miracles u think moses parted the red sea? hmmmmm i dont im just saying the stories in the bible remin me of mythology which isnt true but to the greeks it was it was their religion it could be the same for us dont u think? water to wine and stuff like that? come on i doubt it sounds like modern day mythology to me but i can get a bone and show u where we evoled from what u got? besides faith and stories i got truth and facts and numbers im not tryig to rag on u or anybody else but u believeng sumthin is different that proving something i can prove u cant u believe which is god it helps with life having faith


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

I found i learn alot form disovery and history channel
the pros, dr's, scientist reveal sh*t...
who are the dr that study history and people.... ahhhhmm Paleonthelogist or something
they know whats up.

that could tell yo more of that sh*t im saying its amazing

theyll find sh*t like the found king tut..
thats for real


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

Its been said before 
seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave..(knowledge is infinit)
never say that you no everything to where you block out everything you come across. You shoud be upon minded. And turn stones to find knowledge..


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## thoroughbred (Mar 14, 2003)

Go-rilla said:


> I found i learn alot form disovery and history channel
> the pros, dr's, scientist reveal sh*t...
> who are the dr that study history and people.... ahhhhmm Paleonthelogist or something
> they know whats up.
> ...


 yeah fidhign kig tut and stuff just helps prove my oint we evolved over thousands of yrs not that god or jesus snapped his finger and said let there be light right?


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

I still dont understand what you mean by:


> Science backs up relegions like Christians, Jews, Muslims


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## Go-rilla (Jun 14, 2003)

:rock: 
Science supports the bible and other books as facts..
Mythology on the other hand is a different story.

thoroughbred
what did dinosaurs evolve to 
eligators have stayed the same for all these years.
cockroaches the same...
why didnt they evolve?.. just a question.
natives and inuit have that cave man look...
??????


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

Go-rilla said:


> Science supports the bible and other books as facts..
> Mythology on the other hand is a different story.


 what im looking for is a

'science supports the bible and books as facts, by..........'

'a,b,c,d,e,f,g,etc. etc.'


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

jesus hates you drew as does allah and perhaps mohammed


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

piranha45 said:


> jesus hates you drew as does allah and perhaps mohammed


 but buddha loves me.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

son of a bitch!


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

piranha45 said:


> son of a bitch!


 hahahaha

I win!!


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

Drew said:


> piranha45 said:
> 
> 
> > jesus hates you drew as does allah and perhaps mohammed
> ...


 Prove it


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> Drew said:
> 
> 
> > piranha45 said:
> ...


I cant.









when i reach enlightenment you will be the first to know.


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## thoroughbred (Mar 14, 2003)

Go-rilla said:


> Science supports the bible and other books as facts..
> Mythology on the other hand is a different story.
> 
> thoroughbred
> ...


 THEY HAVE EVOLVED ALLIGATORS AND CROCS ARE ESSENTIALLY THE SAME BUT THEYRE JUST SMALLER SO THEY HAVE EVOLEVED AND SO HAVE COKCROACHES BUT ITS NOT AS EVIDENT OR EASY TO SEE BUT THEY HAVE FROM being easier to kill with 1 type of pesticide but after a few generations(evolution) that same pesticide doesnt work so they come up with 1 stronger evolution isnt always clearly seen in physical raits t the eye

p.s. god im god and smart sheesh i scare myself with all this knowledge sometimes lol


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

thoroughbred said:


> p.s. god im god and smart


 Can you prove that scientifically?!


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## thoroughbred (Mar 14, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> thoroughbred said:
> 
> 
> > p.s. god im god and smart
> ...


 i can prove 1 night with me and u'll be in hot sweaty passion







lol


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

thoroughbred said:


> Ms_Nattereri said:
> 
> 
> > thoroughbred said:
> ...


 rofl...........................


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## thoroughbred (Mar 14, 2003)

Drew said:


> thoroughbred said:
> 
> 
> > Ms_Nattereri said:
> ...


 lol


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

thoroughbred said:


> Ms_Nattereri said:
> 
> 
> > thoroughbred said:
> ...


 By doing that how does it prove your God and smart?!


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## thoroughbred (Mar 14, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> thoroughbred said:
> 
> 
> > Ms_Nattereri said:
> ...


 it doesnt prove im god or smart im just saying i could prove i could do it care to takeme up on my gracious offer only 1 way to see if the toffee can do it or not







lol


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

jesus christ natt, quit bitching and just sleep with him already


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## thoroughbred (Mar 14, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> jesus christ natt, quit bitching and just sleep with him already


 lmao p45 she wont do that then she'll have to admit i could do what i said i could


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## Ms_Nattereri (Jan 11, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> jesus christ natt, quit bitching and just sleep with him already


 *NO!*

I never was bitching in the first place...now if youd like me to start...


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## thoroughbred (Mar 14, 2003)

Ms_Nattereri said:


> piranha45 said:
> 
> 
> > jesus christ natt, quit bitching and just sleep with him already
> ...


 oh please start karen lol haha im right i could prove it ur just scared cause u know its true







and there is only 1 way to find out and since u wont the toffee wins


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

piranha45 said:


> nitrofish said:
> 
> 
> > ....its about faith in something we can't prove, but we belive it to be true.
> ...


 So you only believe what you can see huh? Let me guess you don't believe in electricity either. sure you can see what it does, but you can't see it.

I believe in a creator, we did not just appeared out of nothing


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

Go-rilla said:


> Ms_Nattereri
> If he died for a sins why is there still evil.
> God gave us free will, so this life is our test. Because hell is pure punishment pure evil that the humen being cant comprehend its punishing attributes. Ive read where the only thing you would have to dirnk is Scolding hot water and to eat puss and scab type substanc... ( A large cut that is starting to heal. that scabby sh*t..)
> In heaven youll be haveing fruits stake fine women for wives and studs for the women to take as your husbands.


 the reason jesus died for our sins is for forgivness, he was a person without sin.no one can reach heaven if they have sins, (which is all of us) unless we have been forgiven.

not everyone belives hell is pure punishment, I belive a loving god would not let anyone suffer. hell is just death.


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## Xenon (Nov 15, 2002)

nitrofish said:


> So you only believe what you can see huh? Let me guess you don't believe in electricity either. sure you can see what it does, but you can't see it.


 I believe in God and I can see what he has done.

For years science has gone out of its way to disprove religion and they have always failed.

Lets use logic here. We evolved from the mud of the earth....ok, what made the earth? The earth was made from the big bang where all matter was thrown out of a central mass in a large explosion. Ok where did that mass come from? nobody can say anything to a "first cause" or "creator". Never have, and never will.


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

very interesting guys and gal..some good points...and drew, yes buddha hates you too...







..he told me while i was meditating(SP?)

his exact word were: I HATE DREW...


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

Xenon said:


> For years science has gone out of its way to disprove religion and they have always failed.
> 
> Lets use logic here. We evolved from the mud of the earth....ok, what made the earth? The earth was made from the big bang where all matter was thrown out of a central mass in a large explosion. Ok where did that mass come from? nobody can say anything to a "first cause" or "creator". Never have, and never will.


 science can not disprove religion any more than religion can disprove science; they are in two totally different realms-- the tangible and the intangible. Alot of people-- who obviously don't think out their arguments very well-- fail to recognize this.

Assuming there actually was a creating power (the Big Bang theory doesn't call for a sparking force, from what I recall of it), why is "God" a more valid answer than space aliens? Because more people choose to believe in "God" than they do globe-forming space aliens? Because there is more proof of a "God" because a bunch of people in the early part of the common-era got together and made up a big book about it?


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## STIFFY (Jul 9, 2003)

I think "The Book" was written to control people. If god loves us all why would he threaten us with something like hell. If i recall correctly in history class earlier forms of religion for a hefty price would wash away our sins so that we could go to heaven. I forget the actual word they called it but basically any time we committed a sin we could go down to the church and pay to have it eraced. God loves us all but he loves your money even more.


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## thePACK (Jan 3, 2003)

kawi ryder said:


> I think "The Book" was written to control people. If god loves us all why would he threaten us with something like hell. If i recall correctly in history class earlier forms of religion for a hefty price would wash away our sins so that we could go to heaven. I forget the actual word they called it but basically any time we committed a sin we could go down to the church and pay to have it eraced. God loves us all but he loves your money even more.










at no time do you have to give money to have your sins forgiven..who told you lie..







..


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## STIFFY (Jul 9, 2003)

That is why I said eariler forms or religion. It seems to me that even religion has evolved to meet todays standards.


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

erm nm


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

thePACK said:


> very interesting guys and gal..some good points...and drew, yes buddha hates you too...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Selecta (May 31, 2003)

I believe in a higher power (creator) and an afterlife, but I have a few things that I can't understand.

1. If God and Allah are the same being but the stories are different, which right, and which is BS?
2. Why would the devil torture evil people in hell if he himself were evil? Wouldn't it be heaven for the evil?
3. Why does going somewhere once or more a week, and listening to the same stories help you get to heaven? 
4. If in the catholic mind God created the earth, what does a Buddhist believe, and are they wrong.

There's millions more but I don't want to bore anyone too much. I have are hard understanding religion because it all seems like contradictions. I think that if whatever you believe in keeps you on the right path, then go for it.


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## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

I can't believe I missed all this! I was a hard-core atheist, I now consider myself to be an agnostic-since I have the idea that that is the only way to truly possess an open-mind. There are so many contradictions in religion (especially christianity-even more so with catholicism) that if one could realize them all, it would be impossible not to see the foolishness in a dogma. Take free-will for example. Most followers will agree that their higher-power is omnipotent and knows all - sometimes even our own fate. By believing that that is true you have proved that free-will is nothing but an illusion-that it doesn't exist, only another excuse for ignorance. If you do not understand, say so and I will specify.


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## scarfish (Apr 5, 2003)

If I were to subscribe to a religion (this excludes Buddhism, which is not a religion) it would definately have to be a polytheistic one. I mean, if I'm already in the gutter, I would need to make up (subconsciously probably) more explanations as to how I got there. It's just easier to believe that a team can create and rule/moderate better/more efficiently than an individual.


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

> (this excludes Buddhism, which is not a religion)


To some its a religion, to many it goes much beyond that... and is more of a philosophy or 'way of life'.


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

kawi ryder said:


> That is why I said eariler forms or religion. It seems to me that even religion has evolved to meet todays standards.


 theres always fucked up religions, theres no doubt about that,I haven't found one that hasn't put their own little twist on things. but the book I go by requries you only to belive in jesus to enter heaven, we are all forgiven, theres no need to tell some preast and say 100 hail mary's to clean the slate. see john 3:16.


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## nitrofish (Jan 14, 2003)

Selecta said:


> I believe in a higher power (creator) and an afterlife, but I have a few things that I can't understand.
> 
> 1. If God and Allah are the same being but the stories are different, which right, and which is BS?
> 2. Why would the devil torture evil people in hell if he himself were evil? Wouldn't it be heaven for the evil?
> ...


 #1 I don't know anything about allah, ill skip this one.
#2 hell isn't tourture, its death, there is no fire, thats just some religions interpetition, but I belive in a loving god that would not let anyone suffer.

#3 it dosent, once again some religions have there own little twist on things, belive whats in the bible, not what some priest tell you you should belive.

#4.I don't know much about budism either, but heres what i do know. buda was never god, he was worshiped like one but he was just a man that was supposed to be the closest to god.but he did have good teachings, many that coinside with many other religious beliefs, such as treat others as you want to be treated and so on.


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

Selecta said:


> 4. If in the catholic mind God created the earth, what does a Buddhist believe


I knew as soon as people started bringing buddhism into the picture this was going to come up.... always does...

buddhists have a problem with this because we view the world as part of a larger cosmos that is at least as big as that taught by modern science, and in addition we believe that this universe includes realms that transcend the physical universe.... this universe is believed to arise and fall in accordance with causes and conditions in a rhythmic process that takes billions of years to go through just one cycle. This is similar to the modern scientific idea of a big bang and then a big crunch, except that Buddhism teaches that the universe expands and contracts repeatedly over countless eons. The Buddha also taught that we should not concern ourselves with speculations concerning the ultimate beginning or end of this process (assuming that this process is not beginningless and endless) but rather we should focus on taking responsibility for our lives and strive to extinguish suffering by living a noble life characterized by such qualities as loving-kindness, compassion, joy, peace, generosity, virtue, and patience to name a few. To engage in fruitless cosmological speculations instead of working on the practical issue of suffering and the liberation from suffering would be like getting shot (no pun intended... i swear!) and while bleeding to death refusing to go to the hospital for treatment until you knew who shot you, why they shot you, what kind of gun they used, what kind of bullet etc.... So, the priority should be on resolving our actual human condition and not speculating on the beginning or end of the universe. So from this perspective, whether God created the universe or not, we are still faced with suffering and its causes and we must do something about it through learning what constitutes a noble life and then finding a way to live such a life....

Aside from the priority of dealing with actual issues versus cosmological speculation, Buddhism also teaches that all things arise and cease depending on causes and conditions. When we say that everything is "empty", we do not mean that things do not exist. What we mean is that things are always elements in a process of change and interdependence. When we learn to see things as processes and not as isolated finite objects then we will see that to talk of something being "created" or "destroyed" is only true conventionally. The network of causes and conditions that bring any "thing" into existence is actually a never-ending process with no boundaries. So in this sense, Buddhism never speaks of "creation" or "destruction", "birth" or "death", "appearance" or "disappearance", because that way of talking about things misses the infinite open-endedness and inclusivity of the process which is the reality behind the "things" that we perceive and try to grasp. This holds true for chairs, people, planets, or universes. This is the other reason why Buddhism does not speak of a creation or a creator, because the reality of life, the universe, and everything defies such concepts.

There is also the inherent contradiction in insisting that there must be a God who caused the universe because everything must have a cause... but then insisting that God is an exception to the rule that everything must have a cause. Either one must insist that everything has a cause, including God, or one must admit that things do not always need causes and therefore you can not insist that the world or the universe must have a cause. This logical dilemma is another reason why Buddhism does not speak of a creation or a Creator.

Having said all that.... there are two ways in which a Creator does appear in Buddhism after all. The first case is as the deity Brahma.. Brahma was the all-powerful creator deity of Brahmanism (the religion that today is known as hinduism). In Buddhism, Brahma appears when the Buddha attains enlightenment and is the one who convinces him to share his profound realization out of compassion for all suffering beings. Brahma is then viewed as the protector of the Dharma (or Truth taught by the Buddha).

BUT................ other times, Brahma is shown to be no better than the Greek Zeus, the chief of the gods but not the actual creator of the universe.



> and are they wrong.


Well, this is ultimately for you to decide... and if anyone ever tells you otherwise they are probably trying to push another religion onto you or frail minded.


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## DrewBoOty (Nov 23, 2002)

I found this in a FAQ type article earlier, while I was making sure to explain Brahma correctly.... i was just going to copy/paste this in basic if you dont feel like reading that lengthy post just read this.

Question: So, you avoid talking about a creation or a Creator because you believe that these concepts are logically flawed and distracting from actual spiritual practice. And you believe that the Dharmakaya or buddha-nature, is the true nature of reality which is the basis of the universe and acts in our lives so that we can free ourselves and others of suffering and manifest the ideal qualities of life?

Answer: That would be a good way of putting it.

:smile:


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## Selecta (May 31, 2003)

I think my point in #4 was missed. I know about Siddhartha Gautama, the Tripitaka, and the state of Nirvana. If you replace the word catholic with any other religion, and do the same with Buddhism, I think the point is the same. If for instance you're a Muslim, I doubt you would think the Hindu Trinity had anything to do with creating man. I think regardless of what religion you are you must have some sort of religious believe on how he we all got here.

And just for recorded Buddhism is considered the forth-largest religion in the world.

I'm not trying to offend you but I don't quite understand what you mean NitroFish

(Sorry don't really know how to use the quotes)

In # 3 you answered "Believe what's in the bible", and in # 2 you answered, "hell isn't torture, it's death, there is no fire". I've never actually read the whole bible, but I'm sure it mentioned fire and torture in hell somewhere in it. What parts of the bible do I take literally and what parts are just "religious interpretations?"


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## dracofish (Jul 13, 2003)

Paganism rules...


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## piranha45 (Apr 8, 2003)

dracofish said:


> Paganism rules...


 agreed


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