# S.Gouldingi or just a Rhom Varient?



## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

In a previous thread about Powerful rivers of Amazon,George (SharkAquarium) posted some pics of one of his Brazilian fishing trips with a Manueli and some Rhoms.
One "Rhom" seemed to me very strange and after examing the picture and compare it with OPEFE's pictures i believe that this is a S.Gouldingi *NOT* a S.Rhombeus.
I believe that the fish matches the S.Gouldingi description of OPEFE depending on colouration,head shape,jaw formation,lack of red eye, but not be able to compare the black band on caudal fin.
Just my opinion.

What do you believe?Frank?

Here is the links and the pics:

O.P.E.F.E.-S.Gouldingi page
PFury Post about Amazon Rivers by *BOXER*

George's Picture:









Jim


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

S. Gouldingi pic from O.P.E.F.E. :

Jim


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi Jim!

First I must commend you on your observations, however, I am afraid that I do believe that George's fish (in pic) is in fact _S. rhombeus_ (or something other than _S. gouldingi_).

Why?

1. _S. gouldingi_ is not known to occur in the Rio Xingu. That is where George's picture was taken.

2. George brought back some of those rhombeus and called them "marbled rhoms." Ron from fishpost.com has one and it is definitley not _S. gouldingi_, actually, I don't think it's _S. rhombeus_ either but that's a story for another day.

3. Other pics taken by George exhibit a much larger fish than any _S. gouldingi_ on record.

Again while I commend your observations, I must say that the fish in question is, for now, _S. rhombeus_.

Hope that helped!


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

B. Scott said:


> 1. _S. gouldingi_ is not known to occur in the Rio Xingu. That is where George's picture was taken.
> 
> 2. George brought back some of those rhombeus and called them "marbled rhoms." Ron from fishpost.com has one and it is definitley not _S. gouldingi_, actually, I don't think it's _S. rhombeus_ either but that's a story for another day.
> 
> 3. Other pics taken by George exhibit a much larger fish than any _S. gouldingi_ on record.


 First of all i would like to thank you for your observations!!!!

1.You are true about the locality.....
2.I would like to see more pics of these fish if anyone has...
3.I really don't know anything about S.Gouldingi size.....









Another thing that make me believe of a S.Gouldingi is after resizing George's pic i saw a fainted "vertically elongated stripe on the lateral body" as described in O.P.E.F.E. (at least what i believed to be with my poor english...







)

Here is the part of the fish:

Jim


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

It's not very clear but there is a black "line" between the two green i draw......

Jim


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

husky_jim said:


> First of all i would like to thank you for your observations!!!!
> 
> 1.You are true about the locality.....
> 2.I would like to see more pics of these fish if anyone has...
> ...


 Jim,

There is still quite a bit of debate over the "marbled rhoms' and when the topic is brought up, it usually ends in hurt feelings.

I see what you are talking about regarding the faint, very faint, line. Generally speaking, any fish with a speckled or marbled pattern will have several markings in a row that will sometimes give the appearance of a line, band, striation etc..., however, in this case, the fish shows just an unusual coloration/pattern display.

_S. gouldingi_ is most commonly encountered in the Rio ***** and its many tributaries within Northern Brazil (i.e. Rio Branco, Rio Jau etc...). I am afraid that the Rio Xingu just does not have the blackwater ecosystem that Goulding's piranhas prefer.

Anyway, again, great observations. Please keep them up!

PS---Your English is fine









Respectfully,


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

***Update...

I saw the pics of Ron's fish and i can tell that this is a different fish from the one i am talking...
Check the head shape,Jaw formation,Colouration....
Here is the link...:
Ron's New Marbled Piranha

In OPEFE site there are pics of George's "Marbled" Rhoms from Rio Iriri-Rio Xingu. Here is the pic of the fish wich as you can see it is completly different from the aforementioned one.

Jim...(still wondering :rock: )


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

***Update
I 've just checked George's site if it had pics of Gouldingi's but i didn't found one.Istead of a pic look what it is written......This makes my opinion more true...............









Jim


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## Judazzz (Jan 13, 2003)

Great observations, Sherlock
















Looking forward to see this mystery unravel...


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

husky_jim said:


> ***Update
> I 've just checked George's site if it had pics of Gouldingi's but i didn't found one.Istead of a pic look what it is written......This makes my opinion more true...............
> 
> 
> ...


 Jim,

The information you found on George's site makes your argument more viable because of one thing, and one thing only: *George has actually been there*. As far as I know, we (both you and I) have not, however, I can assure you that based on scientific findings, the specimens in George's pics are NOT _S. gouldingi_. Why? *Because there is NO record of that species in the Rio Xingu*. I may be wrong, and I have been often, but I would assume that even Frank would be very hesitant to go against science like that, especially when your information is web-based.

Frank-----Assistance please!


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## Death in #'s (Apr 29, 2003)

husky_jim if i have to go to court i want u as my lawyer
and this is very intersting


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

Death in # said:


> husky_jim if i have to go to court i want u as my lawyer
> and this is very intersting


 I agree, his persistance is quite honorable









On another note: not only is the Goulding's piranha not known to exist anywhere even close to the Rio Xingu but it is not known to get even close to the size of the aformentioned specimen









Yo Frank-----your 2 cents please!? If I am wrong please anounce it to the world!


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

S. gouldingi is presently known only from rios *****, Japurá (Brasil) and Orinoco (Venezuela). No other locality as of this writing. Regarding the verticle stripes, you err in your drawings. Vertical stripes (or bars) of S. gouldingi are short and upright, not horizontal as in your drawing.
Here is cleaned up image. Only concern is the eye color, but might be due to photography color or angle. Dorsum region looks damaged either from repeated bites or being "hit" by an object to give it that rippled effect. My impression, S. rhombeus.


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

Awesome info as always Frank









Thanks for the support!


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

hastatus said:


> S. gouldingi is presently known only from rios *****, Japurá (Brasil) and Orinoco (Venezuela). No other locality as of this writing. Regarding the verticle stripes, you err in your drawings. Vertical stripes (or bars) of S. gouldingi are short and upright, not horizontal as in your drawing.
> Here is cleaned up image. Only concern is the eye color, but might be due to photography color or angle. Dorsum region looks damaged either from repeated bites or being "hit" by an object to give it that rippled effect. My impression, S. rhombeus.


 Thanks for the info Frank!








.
.
.
.
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....but i still want to listen on George's opinion about this fish.It would be very interesting!

George HELP!!!

Jim


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## SharkAquarium (May 16, 2003)

Thank you for bringing this thread to my attention. It is quite interesting.

Things would be so much easier if these piranha has little name plates stuck to their undersides, so after all the intellectual discussions, we could just turn them over and see who is right. Unfortunately, they don't, so the best we can do is guess actual identities.

About all I can offer this discussion is the actual picture of the fish itself, AND say with 100% surity where it was caught. I have no idea what the fish is currently, scientifically, named. The fact that goldingi is not noted to be from that area has, in my opinion, very limited weight because distribution data is constantly being updated. Sampling in these remote areas is extremely rare, and I would conjecture that NO piranha is 'officially recorded' from the Rio Iriri. Does this mean there are none? Of course not. I have personally had Dr. Fink review pictures of wild fish I had caught and often he has noted that what he thought they were was outside recorded distributions.

Brian's observation about the Rio Xingu being different from the upper Rio ***** is (probably) correct, but I have never been to the Rio ***** area in question, so I can not say whether they are similar of not. But I can say that the Rio Xingu is a large, broad river, and this animal came from an extremely different environment; i.e. a shallow, cooler, oxygen saturated, river filled with rapids. (Rio Iriri) How does THIS environment compare to the 'upper Rio *****' environment?

Regarding the 4" S. goldingi that is(was) listed for sale from the Rio Xingu, that particular fish was imported from a collector on the Rio Xingu; the same one with whom I stayed on this trip. His fish come from the Xingu, AND the Rio Iriri (primarily the fancy gold nugget plecos, etc. that come from the fast flowing currents of the Rio Iriri. Since it is a juvenile, it is not hard for me to assume if could be found in either river, and they flow together. The identification of that particular fish came after I posted pictures of it on p-fish, and that was the final concensus of the 'resident experts'. (I made a quick look for that picture, but can not find it.)

To me, the value of this discussion is not actually what this particular fish is. It sure as hell is a very nice fish. Can you imagine the "OH SHlT" that I uttered the first time I saw it? More important to me is that we have a forum to discuss a subject we enjoy, and a subject to discuss that one must admit we know little about. I would like to see more of the use of the words "in my opinion", because that is all it is, in most cases. Remember, they don't have those little tags on their asses, and our knowledge base is constantly being updated. I commend Jim for bringing this up, and again, thank you for letting me know it was going on.

george


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I agree with portion of George's remark: 


> The fact that goldingi is not noted to be from that area has, in my opinion, very limited weight because distribution data is constantly being updated. Sampling in these remote areas is extremely rare, and I would conjecture that NO piranha is 'officially recorded' from the Rio Iriri. Does this mean there are none? Of course not.


I've had similar disscussion with Fink regarding other beasts that I was asked to ID and they were not known from that locality. P. striolatus comes to mind from a David Schleser collection, however no other has been collected from that locality. Does it mean there are no others? of course not, but odd that no more have been found. So that can lead to questionable practices of human interference in introducing fishes not native to a particular river much the same way it is done in the U.S. But getting back to the photo. Husky Jim made his observations on what he saw on the photo including "verticle stripes". Unfortunately, S. gouldingi does NOT have verticle stripes the way Jim drew them, nor is the fish been "officially" collected in those areas, as I pointed out. Both strong arguments against the fish being gouldingi. And if you note, I wrote "as of this writing". That allows some leeway.









As for the usage of the words "in my opinion" I thought that is what I did; _Only concern is the eye color, but might be due to photography color or angle. Dorsum region looks damaged either from repeated bites or being "hit" by an object to give it that rippled effect. *My impression, S. rhombeus. *_

My impression of it being S. rhombeus required clearing up the photo more and putting it side by side with a photo of S. gouldingi that Husky Jim posted above from Fink. I did not allow influence by Brian remarks to color my thoughts, as I do my own research.

While there are some similarities, the tail is not visible which would help. S. gouldingi has a "V" as juvenile, later darkening extending out almost making it a completely black tail. The other problem is adult S. gouldingi were not distinguished from S. rhombeus by collectors until Fink and Machado-Allison separated them because at adult sizes they look similar except for the eye and tail. S. gouldingi are silver orbit, adult are black eyes. S. rhombeus are silver orbit, subadults have a red eye. The eye color of the fish photo is difficult to ascertain. So there you have it.

So in my opinion, the evidence based on one photo and the locality given suggests the fish is S. rhombeus. Maybe it is gouldingi and the locality given is wrong, but one photo doesn't make it so.


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## crownfire (Nov 25, 2003)

I appreciate the quality of this conversation i only wish i had something to add. Thanks for the great reading.


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## french toast (May 2, 2003)

> I appreciate the quality of this conversation i only wish i had something to add


yup yup







Thanks !


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## B. Scott (Apr 24, 2003)

hastatus said:


> I did not allow influence by Brian remarks to color my thoughts, as I do my own research.


 Frank,

You are stating that we arrived at basically the same conclusion using our own resources correct?

:smile:


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

> B. Scott Posted on Jan 23 2004, 04:42 PM
> QUOTE (hastatus @ Jan 23 2004, 10:25 AM)
> I did not allow influence by Brian remarks to color my thoughts, as I do my own research.
> 
> ...


Yup and without my looking at one TFH book!









Got to admit this is one interesting topic though.


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## andymel (Oct 27, 2003)

Frank and George keep up the good work. The hobby needs it!


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## Chad_linden (Dec 3, 2003)

husky_jim said:


> S. Gouldingi pic from O.P.E.F.E. :
> 
> Jim


 If you look at the fins of this picture of S. Gouldingi posted above you can see the S. Gouldingi has pectoral fins, whereas the one pictured has pelvic fins. This helps us decide that it is NOT S. Gouldingi. Rhoms are known to have red eyes, and uncolored eyes, Uncolered rhom eye, but usually have both pectoral and pelvic fins ( rhom with pectoral and pelvic fins ),  so it is difficult to say which species this is. I think that both s. Gouldingi and Rhom are improper classifications. Picture of full grown Rhom. You can see the pectoral and pelvic fins more clearly. But I have looked through all the species of Piranhas I can think of and this one doensn't resemble any of them 100%


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

SharkAquarium said:


> I commend Jim for bringing this up, and again, thank you for letting me know it was going on.
> 
> george


 I would like to thank you George for posting your thoughts about it.I really appriciate it!








I want to ask you two more things though.First is if you remember the exact eye-colour of that fish and the second is if you have more pics of this fish to post or to send me cause i am really intresting about it!

Thanks again all who reply to this thread!!!

jim


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## SharkAquarium (May 16, 2003)

Here a a couple more pics. I will start a new thread with some more.




























NOT from these waters. Actually from a lake in Brasil. Just a cool picture.


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## hastatus (Jan 16, 2003)

I completely overlooked the following remark:



> husky_jim Posted: Jan 17 2004, 10:56 PM
> 
> ***Update...
> 
> ...


I sent that link to a few of my "friends" in the field when it first appeared a while back for a discussion and we all agreed the New Marbled Piranha in that photo looks sick. If you look closely at the body you can clearly see skin damage etc. The fish photos provided by George show rhombeus in good health. The marbling effect is pigmentation which may or may not have to due with water issues. I suppose George could fill in the blanks on what kind of industrial issues are occuring in that fishes habitat (ie; fertilizer spill off, gold mining etc.).

As for the rest regarding head shape, Jaw formation, Coloration etc., these are individual traits on fishes and shouldn't be used to categorize as a distinctive species, unless of course you are Catoprion mento. In which case, the jaw structure is uniform with the majority.


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

Thanks for the pics George!!!

Last one is very "interesting"......

Jim


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## Husky_Jim (May 26, 2003)

hastatus said:


> As for the rest regarding head shape, Jaw formation, Coloration etc., *these are individual traits on fishes and shouldn't be used to categorize as a distinctive species*, unless of course you are Catoprion mento. In which case, the jaw structure is uniform with the majority.


 Thanks for pointing that Frank i didn't knew it!!!!!









Jim


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