# Water test question



## HGI

So I tested the water today (4days after putting the fish in my tank)

6.4 ph 
1 Ammonia 
0 Nitrite
5 Nitrate

Right now I only have one fx5 hooked up to the 170g, there's 6 baby piranhas.. the biggest is 2.5" and the rest are in the 1" to 2" rage.. I did a 20% water change and made sure I got all and as much poop/food scraps off the bottom to see if it would lower the ammo, but about 4 hours later I re-tested the ammo and it was still at 1.

I filled one basket with nylon pot scrubbers from a friend in town with an established tank, and fill 1.5 baskets with established biomax rings from another friend. I then threw in 4 more nylon scrubbers to top off that half full basket.

Is there something I should do? I'm a little nervous for the fishies.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

When you were transporting the established media did you have it in a bag of tank water?

basically all you can do is water changes. if you have Prime dose your tank with some of that it says it will detoxify the ammonia. It won't get rid of it but it should make it so nothing happens to your fish.


----------



## HGI

Yea the established media was transported in tank water they came from.

I'll dose with some Prime, how much and how often should I do water changes till the ammo goes back down to zero?


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

I do 50% water changes daily if I have ammonia problems. Every time you do a 50% it should cut the ammonia down 50% as long as your tap water has no ammonia.


----------



## HGI

I'll test the water 1st thing when I wake up tomorrow (10am) and if the ammo is back up I'll do another 60g water change and another dose of that ammo stuff.

Is this because I went from having a empty tank and tossed in 6 piranhas so the bacteria needs to catch up? 
What's the theory here?

I'll post up a complete water test result from my tap and tank tomorrow morning.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

Yep you got it. Thats why you have ammonia. Just use waterchanges to keep it in check and your fish will be fine.


----------



## HGI

Alright just finished making coffee and testing both my tank and tap water.

Tank
6.2 PH
1.25 Ammo
0 Nitrite
7 Nitrate

Tap
6.4 PH
0 Ammo
0 Nitrite
0 Nitrate

I'm going to do a about a 60g to 70g water change now and I'll post up the water test results 2 hours after that's done.


----------



## HGI

Alright been 2 hours since my water change and another dose of that ammonia remover this morning, here's the test results.

6.4 PH
0.5 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
5.0 Nitrate

I did find a few very small peace of left over food under a peace of slate, the peace was maybe 1/8 of a inch so maybe that had something to do with the ammo but I dout it. I'll check the water again tomorrow morning to and let you know what the readings are.

As for the PH, it's a little on the low side... Is this something I should be concerned about as well? I thought the slate would have made the PH rise a little but it's going down.... I rather not have to dump PH riser in the tank all the time, is there a type of rock I can put in there that will rise up the PH or is this something I don't really need to worry about?


----------



## Grosse Gurke

With your nitrates increasing like they are....and your ammonia headed in the right direction....I dont think you have much to worry about. It will just take a few days for your tank to level out.

You are always going to get some kind of mini cycle when you start a new tank...even with established media. It just takes a while for the tank to find it balance between the bio-load and the amount of bacteria you need. You might think that taking a bunch of media will be enough bacteria....but an established tank has bacteria on every surface that has water moving over it. It is a more condensed population in the filter...but depending on how the established tank is structured...it the filter might only contain half the beneficial bacteria that is supporting the tank.


----------



## HGI

Cool thanks that really clears things up in my head.

I was really disappointed I didn't get to actually cycle my tank myself as it was something I wanted to do to help me better understand what's actually going on with the water... Instead I was rushed to find established media off my local boards as the piranhas had to be out of their small 33g by the end of this month.

We need thank you buttons on these forums.

Thanks Johnny and Grosse Gurke, sometime I tend to worry things


----------



## Grosse Gurke

HGI said:


> As for the PH, it's a little on the low side... Is this something I should be concerned about as well? I thought the slate would have made the PH rise a little but it's going down.... I rather not have to dump PH riser in the tank all the time, is there a type of rock I can put in there that will rise up the PH or is this something I don't really need to worry about?


Call up a saltwater store and get some crushed coral. You can stick it in a media bag and put it in your filter. This stuff will raise your ph and stabilize it. I would set up a test in a 5 gallon bucket and figure out how much you need before you start adding anything to your tank. The last thing you want are ph swings while you are trying to dial in the proper amount of coral to use. Just stick a powerhead in the bucket to get some movement....and then add in some coral in measured amounts...you should be able to dial in the proper amount over a week or two.

If you want to see something interesting.....next time you test your ph....after it is done...drop in a small piece of the crushed coral....the test will max out pretty quickly.


----------



## HGI

^^

Cool I'll take up that idea about the crushed coral + bucket + powerhead = goodness.

Alright water check this morning, everything seems to be on it's way to leveling itself out.

6.2 PH
.75 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
7.0 Nitrate

Going to do another 50g to 60g water change, not going to bother testing the water till tomorrow morning


----------



## HGI

Today's results.

6.0 PH (going to the store today to get some crush coral)
.75 Ammo 
0.0 Nitrite
5.0 Nitrate

I'm wondering what level do you guys let your Nitrate's level rise to. Just so I have an idea of what the safe zone is and where to draw the line.


----------



## Grosse Gurke

If you keep them under 40ppm...you are on a good schedule. Some people will talk about 20ppm....but depending on the bio-load...that can be very difficult. Nitrates are not much of a concern in a freshwater tank IMO....


----------



## HGI

Alright I skipped two days of water changes to give my back a rest.

I also threw in one of these in my tank over my fx5's intake and it seem to help a small amount.









So here's today readings.
March 1st

1.5 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
10 Nitrate

How long is this going to go on for???


----------



## Grosse Gurke

Personally....I hate ammonia removers. IMO...all they do is interrupt the cycle. I have worked with so many members that use these things and cant figure out why their parameters are all over the place and going through mini-cycles. Well....here are a few things to think about.....one....you need ammonia to feed the bacteria. Without it your bacteria will starve. Two...you are masking your tanks true bio-load so when your tank does cycle...your bacteria will only populate to handle a fraction of the tanks true bio-load. And finally...when those things fill up...they begin to leach ammonia back into the tank...so not only does your bacteria need to catch up to the tanks real bio-load...now it needs to catch up to the additional ammonia these things are giving off. All that adds up to a never ending cycle of mini-cycle after mini-cycle. Your tank will never be in balance.

IMO...these things create more problems then they solve. If you are concerned about ammonia levels&#8230;there are water conditioners that claim they detoxify ammonia&#8230;but will not interrupt the cycle. I have never used one so I don't really know&#8230;but many member swear by them. I would go with this method&#8230;.and toss out the ammonia remover.

Sorry dude...I know you are trying


----------



## HGI

Arg, once this battle is over I'm getting drunk.


----------



## Grosse Gurke

I dont blame you. It can be confusing at times...but once the whole cycle concept kicks in....it really isnt that complicated.


----------



## HGI

*Feb 24*
6.4 ph
1 Ammonia
0 Nitrite
5 Nitrate

*Feb 25*
6.2 PH
1.25 Ammo
0 Nitrite
7 Nitrate

Water Change 

*Feb 25 *(2 hours after change)
6.4 PH
0.5 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
5.0 Nitrate

*Feb 26*
6.2 PH
.75 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
7.0 Nitrate

Water Change

*Feb 27*
6.0 PH 
.75 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
5.0 Nitrate

*Feb 28*
1.0 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
5.0 Nitrate

*March 1*
1.5 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
10 Nitrate

Water Change

*March 2*
1.0 Ammo
.15 Nitrite
10 Nitrate

Why do I have Nitrites all the sudden? Does this mean my tank is going threw the peak of it's mini cycle?


----------



## Guest

Grosse Gurke said:


> Personally....I hate ammonia removers. IMO...all they do is interrupt the cycle. I have worked with so many members that use these things and cant figure out why their parameters are all over the place and going through mini-cycles. Well....here are a few things to think about.....one....you need ammonia to feed the bacteria. Without it your bacteria will starve. Two...you are masking your tanks true bio-load so when your tank does cycle...your bacteria will only populate to handle a fraction of the tanks true bio-load. And finally...when those things fill up...they begin to leach ammonia back into the tank...so not only does your bacteria need to catch up to the tanks real bio-load...now it needs to catch up to the additional ammonia these things are giving off. All that adds up to a never ending cycle of mini-cycle after mini-cycle. Your tank will never be in balance.
> 
> IMO...these things create more problems then they solve. If you are concerned about ammonia levels&#8230;there are water conditioners that claim they detoxify ammonia&#8230;but will not interrupt the cycle. I have never used one so I don't really know&#8230;but many member swear by them. I would go with this method&#8230;.and toss out the ammonia remover.
> 
> Sorry dude...I know you are trying


I agree, never use a ammonia remover in a tank. They should only exist in your cabinet if you are worried about HUGE spikes.

Anyways, I know the problem:

*In another thread, you mentioned that you have packed 41 scrubbers (including 2 in the intake) into your filter. What is happening is that the waste us clogging up and enough water isn't available to cycle it and dilute it. You need to remove some of the sponges so that your filter is running at full capacity. *

The Nitrites will go away soon, don't worry too much - just make sure the ammonia goes down.

So, in essence: 

Cut down on feedings.
Only perform large water changes if the fish look like they are being harmed badly by the ammonia, otherwise a huge water change can cause more problems.
No more ammonia removers.
Remove pot scrubbers from your Fluval so that water flows at maximum capacity with ease.

I just noticed your pH is swinging - remember Ammonia is more toxic at a higher pH generally. Also, you can lower your temperature if you are worried about the fish as Ammonia is more toxic at higher temperatures.

I wouldn't recommend adding anything that will alter your pH, unless you are doing small water changes and the difference is small. If you are going to change your pH a lot by adding calcium (crushed coral), then you should also be adding some type of powder supplement to bring up the pH in your new water.


----------



## Guest

Here is the post I was referring to by the way -> http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.ph...t&p=2519722


----------



## HGI

Mr. Lahey

Thanks for the info,

I forgot to post in the that thread that I removed the 2 scrubber in the intake cause they clogged up pretty much instantly... My fx5 at the moment has 1.75 trays of ceramic rings (bio max) as they were given to me as established media from the admin off my local fish forums. 1 tray is full of pot scrubbers (4 scrubbers were from a established filter from another member off my local forums). I have another member on my local forums who is has 10 well established pot scrubbers he's able to give me in need, I'm wondering if I should bother? Though I will pop my fx5 open and check the one tray and remove some if it's really crammed up.

I stopped using anything that would alter my ammonia on Saturday.

Cut down on feeding? They still pretty small... Right now they get fed once at 11am and once around 10pm, and 9/10 times their food is gone in less than a minute. If I cut down how much should I feed them? They're eating fresh Talapia (it was fresh from the market, I froze it to kill any parasites but thawed some out for them to eat) and I normally give them a cube off about 3"L x 1"W x 0.5Thick in size.

I wont do any water change today, tomorrow morning I'll post up the test results and we can work threw this.

As for the PH, my tap water has a PH of 6.4 and after it sits in the tank for a few days it drops down to 6.0, The swings you see are from doing water changes, it goes to 6.4 when I do a water change then works its way back down to 6.0 over a few days. I do have some crush coral in a bucket trying to get the PH to be around 7 in that bucket. The only reason I want to rise the PH is I plan on adding some drift wood to my tank and that itself will lower the PH. Don't worry I don't plan on doing anything to my tanks PH until I have this ammonia issue under control.

I lowered my temp from 83F to 79.5F yesterday, and I'm going to lower it again down to 76F today then from there I'll see how their acting.


----------



## HGI

Just finished checking the filter, I removed 2 scrubbers from the one tray full of scrubbers now there's only 11 scrubbers in there and they're loosely fitting... Basically there's lots of room for water to get around and threw them.

Any other advice is welcome.


----------



## Guest

HGI said:


> Just finished checking the filter, I removed 2 scrubbers from the one tray full of scrubbers now there's only 11 scrubbers in there and they're loosely fitting... Basically there's lots of room for water to get around and threw them.
> 
> Any other advice is welcome.


Nicely done, this should help alleviate the problem soon.


----------



## Grosse Gurke

Your doing fine HGI....the cycle is less predictable when you use established media. It ends quicker and is much better on the fish...but it is hard to gage how much established bacteria you actually have.

Give it a little time to work itself out. From your numbers...you have all the bacteria in place....now they just need to populate to meet your bio-load.


----------



## HGI

K thanks so much for all the patience with me I am trying to soak all this info in as well as do what's best for the fish at the same time.

I'll keep you all updated with my water stats threw out this week.


----------



## HGI

March 3rd
Seemed like Ammo slightly dropped but the Nitrites have gone up slightly, I'm still going to go ahead and do a small water change cause I want to get some of this poop off the bottom of half of the tank.

6.0 PH
.75 Ammo
.25 Nitrite
10 Nitrate


----------



## Guest

Good, that sounds like a nice cycle to me!


----------



## HGI

would of put it up sooner but my computer was acting up on me.

Anyways here it is.

March 4th

6.0 PH
.75 Ammo
.25 Nitrite
15 Nitrate


----------



## HGI

Everything seems to be going up now, will be doing a 20% water change today.

6.0 PH
1.0 Ammo
.35 to .40 Nitrite
20 to 30 Nitrate


----------



## Guest

Hmm...wondering about your test kit a bit.

Otherwise, I would take out all of your media in your filter. Get a buck full of tank water. Rinse out all the media in there, and get the filter going again.

Is there a lot of waste at the bottom?

I'm not sold on pot scrubbers in a cannister holding that much bacteria but lets try some other things first. The Nitrate level is good at least.


----------



## HGI

I'm on my way to work right now so this is going to be short.

I'm using the API master test kit (liquid test)

Seriously wash my filter media? When I opened the filter last (when I pulled out 2 scrubbers) it was pretty clean in there, like not much for junk or anything and it smelt like a normal filter water would.

No, no wast on the bottom of the tank as far as I can see... I did cut down on feeding and every time I did a water change I did a very good job at cleaning the sand as well as taking any dead leafs off the plants if there were any.

I'll check the forums when I get home from work tonight.


----------



## Grosse Gurke

Well...from what I see...you are doing fine. You have a pretty big bio-load for a new tank...so it is going to take a little while for the bacteria to catch up. I would just add a little salt if you havent already...and by little I mean like a tlbspoon for the entire tank....and then wait it out. Oh...and do water changes without messing with the gavel.


----------



## HGI

Tank already has about 5 tablespoons of salt in it, the directions said a tablespoon per 5gallons but that seemed like a lot to me so I only added 5 tablespoons about 4 days ago and the P's didn't seem to mind it at all it's a 170g but I'm going to guess there's only 150g of water in there. Do water changes without messing with the gravel?? My tank has silica sand in it, I don't go to hardcore messing with the sand but I do try to get as much waste off the bottom every time I do a water change.

Something I've been wondering about when I was doing a water change this morning. Right now I pour water into my 5g buckets (only have 3 of them) then put water conditioner in the buckets and let it do its thing for 15min, then pour the water in the tank... Well it's kinda hard on the shoulders and back and my siphon has a adapter that hooks up to the kitchen sink. I know chlorine in the tap water will kill the beneficial bacteria but since I have my filter turned off during water changes would it be a good or bad idea to hook the siphon up to the sink then add the conditioner to the tank once it's full? I'm going to guess it'd be a bad idea cause the chlorine would kill the B-bacteria in the tank but I thought I'd ask.


----------



## HGI

March 6th

6.0 PH
.40 Ammo
.25 Nitrite
10 Nitrate


----------



## Grosse Gurke

For water changes...I just go from tap straight into the tank. Personally...I dont use water conditioner unless I am doing a pretty large water change.


----------



## HGI

March 7th

6.0 PH
.30 Ammo
.15 Nitrite
15 Nitrate

It seems things are starting to get better, last water change was on Friday, I'm going to give it another day and see where the numbers go from here.


----------



## HGI

March 8th

6.0 PH
.50 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
20 Nitrate

Going to let nitrate go up more and watch the ammo before doing a water change.


----------



## HGI

March 9th

Weird

6.0 PH
.50 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
20 Nitrate

Like the bacteria decided to take a day off lol.


----------



## HGI

March 10th

6.0 PH
1.0 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
25 Nitrate

Going to do a small water change today to get the poop off the bottom from the corner that they spend most their time in.


----------



## Guest

I might just forget about the water changes for a month. Not the safest thing for the fish but that filter is strugglin and needs more bacteria.

For the record, I don't trust those pot scrubbers to hold a lot of bacteria but I've heard otherwise.


----------



## HGI

Something is wrong with my computer and it connects to the wireless router but doesn't get internet so I'm on the landlords pc right now since they're out of town for a few days.

anyways here's the water test results

March 11th
6.0 PH
.50 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
10 Nitrate

March 12th
6.0 PH
.75 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
15 Nitrate


----------



## Guest

HGI, I would throw some proper biomedia in your filter. You should be seeing more progress at this point.

Don't get too discouraged - I've seen tanks go 3 months cycling and not really hurt the fish too much.


----------



## HGI

Wow back, lost internet for a week (something was wrong with the router and the landlords wouldn't fix it so I took it into my own hands and got it done)

Anyways the water test have been basically the same deal all week so I'm not going to bother posting them. I'll pick up some more of those ceramic rigs to fill the last tray of the fx5 that has scrubbers tomorrow(saturday) since it's my only day off this week.

I'll give the tank 2 days to do its thing then start posting the water test results on monday let you all see what happened.


----------



## Guest

Hey HGI, do you know anyone with a tank? If you do, ask them for some of their filter floss or media from their filter. Make sure you keep it wet and don't leave it without running water for more than a few hours.

Also, you can ask your LFS, they might have some cultured media they could spare for you.


----------



## HGI

^^ To late, already went to the store this morning and picked up a box of rings.

Here's how the filter was set up:

----------------
3 pot scrubbers < Top Basket
Bio Rings- Established from a friend
----------------
Bio Rings < Middle Basket
- Established from a friend
----------------
Pot Scrubbers < Bottom Basket
4 established ones I got from a friend
----------------

I basically only removed 3 pot scrubbers out of the bottom basket and added a box of "Laguna Bio Max Media Rings" The rest of the pot scrubbers that were in there I moved to another basket and put some back on top of the newly added rings. So for removing 3 pot scrubbers and adding a box of Bio Max Rings there should be a wack load more room for bacteria to shrive on.

Now this is how it's set up

----------------
4 Pot Scrubbers  < Top Basket
New Bio Rings 
----------------
3 Pot Scrubbers < Middle Basket
Bio Rings - Established from a friend
----------------
2 Pot Scrubbers < Bottom Basket
Bio Rings - Established from a friend
----------------

*note, nothing is crammed in there, everything is loosely fitting allowing water to flow all around it*

I'm not going to bother testing the water till Monday, and I'll let you know what the prams are.

Now it's time for a beer.


----------



## HGI

Monday morning, here's the results

6.0 PH
1.0 Ammo
0.0 Nitrite
20 Nitrate

The last time I did a water change will be a week tomorrow, and the water test results are exactly/pretty close to what they were last week.


----------



## Guest

Howd this week go?


----------



## HGI

After I did the water change last week the Ammo went down to .25 for one day, then to .50 and stayed there for the rest of the week.

I haven't tested it this morning cause I'm doing a water change after I drop the lady off at work...

Right now I'm just pondering if replacing the prefiltering filter strips/outer foam on the fx5's baskets with high quality media rings and putting something like a magdrive sponge over the intake would be a wise choice in my case.


----------



## Grosse Gurke

I dont know man....all the bacteria is in place....it sounds like there isnt enough bio-filtration to handle the load...but an FX5 should be plenty.

I havent heard of using pot scrubbers in a canister filter...only a wet/dry....so I suppose that could be part of the problem....not really sure.


----------



## FEEFA

I would get rid of the pot scrubbers and just use more proper bio media


----------



## Guest

Just as I said from page 1







I too would remove them.


----------



## Grosse Gurke

I wasnt thinking of the scrubbers as a waste trap....just that they might not work as an effective bio-media in a canister filter. I would think a sponge would trap much more waste then any pot scrubber....but then...I dont have any experience with them.


----------



## Johnny_Zanni

pot scrubbers don't do that good in a fully submerged enviroment. Which a FX5 is. Ceramic media would be ideal


----------



## Guest

Grosse Gurke said:


> I wasnt thinking of the scrubbers as a waste trap....just that they might not work as an effective bio-media in a canister filter. I would think a sponge would trap much more waste then any pot scrubber....but then...I dont have any experience with them.


It isnt one or the other - they trap waste and they don't have enough bacteria growth fully submerged to process it.


----------



## Grosse Gurke

Right on. Like I said...I havent used them.


----------



## PiranhaMike661

HGI said:


> Arg, once this battle is over I'm getting drunk.


HELL YEAH!!


----------



## HGI

Uhh, you must be drunk already digging threw the 3month old pile?


----------



## PiranhaMike661

lol....and you as well for answering posts to the three month old pile.


----------

