# Plant advice



## Sam (Mar 18, 2004)

Hey guys...I've currently got two tanks cycling and I'd like to have them planted. I've done a bit of reading over the past few weeks but I'm still not sure about everything. Hope you guys can help me out.

Here are some details on the tanks:

The two tanks are 40gal long (48"x12"x16.5")
I have an AC300 and Fluval 204 running on both. Each tank also has a 300gph powerhead.

Tank 1: 
For substrate has a layer of eco-complete black gravel with regular black gravel on top. The substrate is about 3" deep.
It will house a 4" S. Rhombeus.
Current Ph is 7.8, but keep in mind the tank hasn't cycled yet, and I don't have any decor in there yet.

Tank 2: 
Really fine white gravel...it's not quite sand, but it's about 1/10 the size of regular gravel. Also about 3" deep.
It will house a 4" S. Elongatus
Current Ph is 7.8, also not done cycling, and no decor.

For tank 1 with the rhom...I'd like to have it medium planted, as dense as possible without having to worry about CO2. I don't want to use CO2 as I'm terrified of it messing with Ph...I'd probably kill my fish.

For tank 2 with the elong...I'd like to have it with tall plants (like the onion plant) on the sides with grass-like plants in the middle so the fish would have more swimming space.

So what I need to know is what kind of lighting I would need, what kind of plants would be suitable, will I need to use fertilizers, etc?

I've never had any planted tanks before...so any advice in general would be great.
Thanks.


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

ooooook. First of all, I don't like sand with plants. You can try it, but I'd recommend against it.

For lighting, go buy a two strip fluorescent fixture to go above each tank you want to plant. Don't bother with the local fish store ones, they're no different than home depot ones except that they cost about 3 times more. I prefer T-8 fixtures as they are more energy efficient and smaller. A 32 watt T-8 strip is equivalent to a 40 watt T-12 strip, don't worry about the lower wattage.

Buy yourself a timer for each tank that will be planted to have the light plug into.

Buy yourself two bulbs of appropriate size to go into your fluorescent fixtures. Check your packaging that your fixture came in. if it is T-12 you need to buy T-12 bulbs. If it is T-8 you need to buy T-8 bulbs. Phillips sells a plant and aquarium bulb, and so does GE. This bulb will work fine for growing plants, but has a slightly pinkish color some people don't like. I use phillips "Natural Sunshine" with alot of success and I like the color cast by it.

With a two strip fixture over each tank you will have 80watts (64 with a T-8 but it's about the same really) which works out to 2 watts per gallon. That is about the borderline before you need to start using CO2. CO2 is dependent on how bright your lights are, not how many plants you have. You can plant as dense as you would like.

You will need to use fertilizers to have real good luck. This is what I use and it's really all you will need. It is also cheaper than store bought fertilizers and is also more complete (meaning your plants will be healthier).

For plants, I find it useless to plan without first seeing what your lfs has in stock. There's alot of plants I want, I just can't get them easily







Look around and see what you like at your lfs, and check the light requirements online. You can also browse a variety of common plant profiles here sorted by light requirements. For your setup I would only consier the low light and medium low plants. Medium and up you may not have much luck with.

Good luck


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## Sam (Mar 18, 2004)

> ooooook. First of all, I don't like sand with plants. You can try it, but I'd recommend against it.


Well it's not really sand...it's crushed gravel. For some reason I thought the smaller the gravel the better. I dunno...no choice now since I've already got it.

Also I'm confused about the lighting...I already have the lfs light fixtures. It doesn't say if it's
T-8 or T-12.

It came with 2 - 23" bulbs (20watts). 
Can I just change the bulbs for two 40 watt bulbs? Can I get those bulbs at Home Depot?

Thanks again, bro.


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

It would be nice if you could return your lfs lights, and just make the trip to Home Depot and get the T8 shop light fixtures Twitch recommended.

Hmm, you said that you have a 48" tank... and your fixture has 2 - 23" bulbs.. Twitch is talking about you getting a 48" shop light with 2 32w T8 48" bulbs. What he suggested is going to work for a med-low light planted tank. Your 2 23" 20w bulbs will give you 1wpg, which most likely won't do it for ya.

As for the gravel, yes, smaller can be much better, but not too small like really fine sand.. just make sure your crushed gravel isn't for keeping a high pH level for brackish setups..

The fertilizer is a great choice that Twitch mentioned. I 2nd the notion.

As for shifting pH and fish.. (im going to get blasted for this) I have a pressurized CO2 system, with 3wpg power compact lighting, and used to turn it off at night.. my pH would go from a pH of 6.6 to 7.8 in the morning, and I never lost a single neon tetra. LOL I think Piranha's are a bit more hardier than neons.. They can take it, no problem. People don't want to risk it because of what some ppl say about fish death and pH levels.

But I run my CO2 system with a pH controller now, and it fluctuates about .3 to .4 throughout the day and night... again I never lost a fish. I have to doubt that pH swing is a factor, in itself, of fish death. Not in my case at any time did it cause death anyway.

If you read this Twitch, I would send you all kinds of great plants, but shipping to Canada is rediculous. I sent SpreeRider a bunch of plants on the first of the month, and he didn't get them yet.. they are a pile of rubbish by now







stuck in Canadian customs... I'm kind of disappointed I couldn't help a guy out that was just trying to get some plants...


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

DiPpY eGgS said:


> As for shifting pH and fish.. (im going to get blasted for this) I have a pressurized CO2 system, with 3wpg power compact lighting, and used to turn it off at night.. my pH would go from a pH of 6.6 to 7.8 in the morning, and I never lost a single neon tetra. LOL I think Piranha's are a bit more hardier than neons.. They can take it, no problem. People don't want to risk it because of what some ppl say about fish death and pH levels.
> 
> But I run my CO2 system with a pH controller now, and it fluctuates about .3 to .4 throughout the day and night... again I never lost a fish. I have to doubt that pH swing is a factor, in itself, of fish death. Not in my case at any time did it cause death anyway.
> 
> ...


Awesome post Dippy.

I read somewhere that fish aren't generally affected much by PH as they are total disolved solids and hardness. PH is more a symptom of hardness which is why it looks like a shift from one PH to another kills the fish, but I think it may be down to hardness. I've also seen big swings in ph from CO2 setups, originally I had tried to see if I could run my lights without CO2 and get decent plant growth. I did this for a week before getting a PH and GH test kit and what I found I was putting my fish through startled me. In the morning the PH was 6.8, at the end of the photo period the PH was 8.0. My fish went through that swing EVERY DAY for a week without me knowing it and never showed any signs of stress whatsoever. Kept eating, kept swimming around, no sign of trouble whatsoever. Now, I run CO2 because I don't want to risk anything I don't have to with this fish, but nonetheless I never saw any problems at all.

And that's alright about the plants, I experiment with what I get so it's fun. I've never bothered with shipping plants which is funny because I throw out full grown ludwigia, vallisneria, sagittaria and echinodrus every couple weeks...

Oh well, having a limited access to plants works for me anyway. I go into the lfs and go "oooh, they have glosso in!!!" and buy that instead of going "ooooh, they have fahaka puffers in!" and buy that and then have to buy a filter, a heater, some decorations, a tank....

hah


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## Sam (Mar 18, 2004)

Okay...I'm gonna try and return the lfs lights. I haven't used them yet so it should be no prob.

I have a question about those strip lights from home depot...is this what you're talking about?

How exactly do you put that on top of your tank? Don't you need a hood over the lights?


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## DiPpY eGgS (Mar 6, 2005)

Thanks Twitch,

I'm glad I'm not the only one that found overnight crazy pH swings harmless to fish... Myth revealed! That goes for all my fish too, German Blue Rams, and even 'touchy to water conditions' amano shrimp.

if you ever decide to come a bit south of Toronto, let me know, I have quite a variety ATM of some harder to find plants, and some quite rare that you might enjoy







--Sux I can't just ship.. because I get 2 day guaranteed delivery for $4.00 anywhere in the continental US...

Sam

Yes those are the types of lights that will work.. But I can't let this post go without telling you about AH Supply's lighting.. If you have the loot, this is great planted tank lighting.. for that 40... the 1 x 96w bright kit would grow ANY plant you wanted.. hehe But the 2 x 36w might be more what you are looking for.. not sure.. it just depends on how serious you are about lighting your planted tank i guess


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## matc (Jul 31, 2004)

hey twitch, how do you use the fertilizer in the link above ? Is it the kinds of thing you put before your subtrate ?


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

matc07098702 said:


> hey twitch, how do you use the fertilizer in the link above ? Is it the kinds of thing you put before your subtrate ?
> [snapback]1152973[/snapback]​


Oh sorry, should have pointed that out.

You mix the dry fertilizer with water, then add it into your tank as necessary. It will take awhile to narrow down the right dosage for your tank, but I mix 4 tablespoons of fertilizer with 500ml of water and dose 10ml per 10 gallons (so 40ml in my 40 gallon tank) twice weekly. If I were you, I would start with 5ml per 10 gallons and see where you go from there. There IS a more scientific and exact way of determining fertilizer dosages (Dippy uses them I believe) but I hate math and _love_ trial and error so I just messed around until I found something that works.


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## elTwitcho (Jun 22, 2004)

Sam said:


> Okay...I'm gonna try and return the lfs lights. I haven't used them yet so it should be no prob.
> 
> I have a question about those strip lights from home depot...is this what you're talking about?
> 
> ...


Well it's best to check in person. You want a light that comes with a plug and a reflector ideally. Some fluorescent strips are meant to be wired into walls and whatnot, and that's more work than you need since you'll have to fit a plug to those. Something similar to these would be ideal

http://www.lightsofamerica.com/sl.htm

You can just rest them on top of your tank as the weight will be supported by the reflector. If not, you can come up with your own way of mounting them by either hanging them from the ceiling, building a top with some wood, whatever else you want to do. You could even build a proper hood to rest on top of your aquarium and incorporate the lights with it if you wanted.


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